GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Opera and Vocal => Topic started by: Greta on April 07, 2007, 08:09:57 PM

Title: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Greta on April 07, 2007, 08:09:57 PM
Where to start?  ;D

This thread is dedicated to the one and only Wilhelm Richard Wagner (1813-1883), my favorite composer, who incited my lifelong passion for classical music.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/RichardWagner.jpg)

My first Wagner recording was a collection of overtures in a Laserlight Masters of Classical Music set, my first classical CDs ever. At turns, it represented the utmost joy, despair, and passion, love at first sight for me. At 13, I came across Der Ring des Nibelungen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Ring_des_Nibelungen) (the Ring cycle) broadcast on TV and was spellbound. It was overwhelming that someone could create such a thing, as if it had dropped down from another planet fully formed.

Soon I was checking out librettos and biographies from the library, and dreamed of visiting the real Valhalla of Bayreuth (pronounced "Bai-royt") - I had become a full-fledged Wagnerite. Each successive work I heard cemented my affection. His sheer ambition was awe-inspiring, shown in the grand scale of his works and the concepts of Gesamtkunstwerk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesamtkunstwerk) and the Bayreuth Festspielhaus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayreuth_Festspielhaus). He's certainly a polarizing figure biographically, but I find his scandalous life and writings very interesting. Shocking at times, though personally I separate the man from the music. The effect he left on those who came after him is indelible.

Though I have gravitated toward modern music in recent years, I come back to his music again and again, and it never fails to transport me. Not necessarily the greatest composer, but to me, the one whose work most sings to my soul.

6 Favorite Operas (because I just couldn't do 5!):

Tristan & Isolde
Siegfried
Der Fliegende Hollander
Die Walkure
Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg
Tannhauser


6 Favorite Single Pieces (even harder):

Der Fliegende Hollander - Overture
Tristan & Isolde - Prelude & Liebestod
Die Meistersinger - Prelude to Act III
Siegfried - Idyll
Tannhauser - Overture

Richard Wagner Links

Richard Wagner at Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Wagner)
Kristian Evensen's Richard Wagner Web Site (http://www.trell.org/wagner/)
There are a huge amount of great Wagner resources on the web and
Kristian's Links page is a wonderful collection of all the best
Kristian's Wagner Links (http://www.trell.org/wagner/links.html)

Welcome all Wagner lovers to the Valhalla!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brian on April 07, 2007, 08:52:14 PM
Quote from: Greta on April 07, 2007, 08:09:57 PM
Tristan & Isolde - Prelude & Liebestod
Of course, Wagner himself called it the Liebestod und Verklarung. I suspect that term will never return to use, though, even though it makes vastly more sense (since when does a Love-Death sound consoling?).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on April 08, 2007, 02:32:44 AM


  Hello Greta, I too am a very big fan of Wagner's music.  Truelly a unique composer, and easily the greatest musical dramatist of all time.  He combines four elements so well:

1) Leitmotifs
2) Large orchestras
3) Epic storytelling
4) and above all music with remarkable hypnotic power

  I am trying very hard to get tickets to see the Ring Cycle which will be performed in its entirety in London this fall.  Tickets went on sale last November and have been sold out since  :( !

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: val on April 10, 2007, 05:02:02 AM
From a great Wagner fan:

Parsifal above all.

Then, Tristan.

The Ring, but assuming that the inspiration is not always at its best.

Lohengrin, a remarkable masterpiece.

The Flying Dutchman, in special the first act, and the Meistersinger (for the music, not the text)


And ... sorry, but I don't like much Tannhäuser.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on April 10, 2007, 05:37:23 AM
Quote from: val on April 10, 2007, 05:02:02 AM

And ... sorry, but I don't like much Tannhäuser.

   But Val the overture to Tannhausser is among the most beautiful peices of music I have ever heard. Granted Tannhauser is hardly Wagner's best opera but it has very fine moments indeed.  I have Solti's Tannhauser and love it very much, which recording do you have?


   marvin 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: val on April 11, 2007, 01:52:03 AM
Quotemarvinbrown

   But Val the overture to Tannhausser is among the most beautiful peices of music I have ever heard. Granted Tannhauser is hardly Wagner's best opera but it has very fine moments indeed.  I have Solti's Tannhauser and love it very much, which recording do you have?

I also have the Solti version. I must aedmit that the overture is far from being one of my favorites. To me the best moment of the opera is Tannhäuser's monologue of the 3rd act, "Inbrunst im Herzen". I have it in a superb version of Lauritz Melchior, the best tenor in Wagner that I ever heard.

   
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on April 12, 2007, 03:38:20 PM
Big Wagner fan here.

I also discovered him when I was a teenager.

I'm travelling to Wellington in September to hear the NZSO perfrom a concert of Wagner Overtures/Preludes. We're literally planning a holiday around a Wagner concert  ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Don Giovanni on April 14, 2007, 04:38:27 AM
I think it was Bernstein who said that Tristan und Isolde was "the central work of all music history, the hub of the wheel...". Personally, I adore Tristan - just listening to it is one of the best musical experiences of my life.

Is it as important as Berstein thought?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on April 14, 2007, 07:57:56 AM
Quote from: Don Giovanni on April 14, 2007, 04:38:27 AM
I think it was Bernstein who said that Tristan und Isolde was "the central work of all music history, the hub of the wheel...". Personally, I adore Tristan - just listening to it is one of the best musical experiences of my life.

Is it as important as Berstein thought?

  I too love Tristan und Isolde, it is a real masterpiece demostrating Wagner's hypnotic power.  It is a very significant piece of work because of the Tristan chord which ushered in atonality in music and paved the way for Shoenberg and Alban Berg, It is  easily the most ultra-romantic opera ever written.  Whether it is the central work of all music history or not I do not know, but it ranks right up there with Wagner's Ring and Bach's St. Mathew Passion, Beethoven's Nine Symphonies and Mozart's Paino Concertos as a contender for the title.......Tristan will always remain my favorite opera.

   (By the way my favorite recording and what I consider the ultimate recording is Furtwangler's recording with Kristen Flagstaad as Isolde on EMI Great Recordings of the Century...this I believe is a MUST HAVE for any opera collection)


   marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Greta on April 14, 2007, 09:03:56 AM
I discovered Tristan also when I was the same age as Don Giovanni, and felt the same way about it. I still do!

Tristan's Prelude & Liebestod, a textbook example of building unresolved tension into a mindblowing release, holds a very special place, considered as one of the greatest moments in all music to me.

You'll come to know and recognize the "Tristan chord", and recognize that famous first statement of a sixth and two half-steps, they can be spotted making appearances in later' composers works.

In just a couple of weeks in Houston, I'll be going to an all-Wagner concert and I'm so excited! They just posted the program and I'm most looking forward to hearing several selections from Lohengrin, and especially Die Meistersinger, both of which I have never heard live. No Tristan this time though. ;) But the Der Fliegende Hollander overture more than makes up for it!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: lukeottevanger on April 14, 2007, 11:37:30 AM
Quote from: Greta on April 14, 2007, 09:03:56 AM
You'll come to know and recognize the "Tristan chord", and recognize that famous first statement of a sixth and two half-steps, they can be spotted making appearances in later' composers works.

...and earlier ones.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Don Giovanni on April 14, 2007, 01:00:43 PM
I have the Bohm recording which I adore.

I can't really think of many pieces that are as important as Tristan - The Rite of Spring is the only one that instantly comes to mind (besides those that marvinbrown listed)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on April 15, 2007, 06:34:23 AM
Was inititated into the Ring cycle last week, and am watching it in its entirety again this week (Levine's Met DVD).

Prior to this, I was mostly familiar with Tristan und Isolde, as well as the "hits" (you know!).


The "Ring..." is a stunning victory of Art, in my opinion, as is Tristan...Wagner is one of my favorite composers.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on April 15, 2007, 06:50:31 AM
Quote from: Haffner on April 15, 2007, 06:34:23 AM
Was inititated into the Ring cycle last week, and am watching it in its entirety again this week (Levine's Met DVD).

Prior to this, I was mostly familiar with Tristan und Isolde, as well as the "hits" (you know!).


The "Ring..." is a stunning victory of Art, in my opinion, as is Tristan...Wagner is one of my favorite composers.

   I am glad that you have added Wagner to your list of favorite composers.  Haffner you should definitely check out Meistersingers von Nurnberg and Parsifal both superb operas and not to be missed. The overture of Meistersingers always lifts my spirits and MY God the congregation chorus at the beginning of that opera.....I shouldn't say any more or I'll ruin it for you  :-X.

  PS: Two days ago I ordered the Levine Ring Cycle DVD and I can't wait to see it.
   marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on April 15, 2007, 08:02:28 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on April 15, 2007, 06:50:31 AM
   I am glad that you have added Wagner to your list of favorite composers.  Haffner you should definitely check out Meistersingers von Nurnberg and Parsifal both superb operas and not to be missed. The overture of Meistersingers always lifts my spirits and MY God the congregation chorus at the beginning of that opera.....I shouldn't say any more or I'll ruin it for you  :-X.

  PS: Two days ago I ordered the Levine Ring Cycle DVD and I can't wait to see it.
   marvin




I'm hoping to score the Gotz Friedrich "Lohengrin" dvd soon.

The Levine dvd is just fine. The final chapter, Gotterdamerung, is at times exceptionally moving and epic. I can't say I'm totally wild about Siegfried Jersusalem's stage performance skills, but otherwise this rendition has really helped me get deeper into Wagner's music.

The work as a whole portrays the result of an extraordinarily protracted effort of focused genius. It seemed to showcase exactly where Central European culture tends to go, art reflecting life...and pushed it further.

Watching the Ring was very much what many today would could my "vista-expanding" experience.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Chaszz on May 19, 2007, 05:57:13 PM
I'm new to this board and glad to discover a page devoted to my favorite composer. At the relatively old age of about 60, seven years ago, after a lifetime of listening spent mostly with Bach, Beethoven and Brahms, Wagner suddenly hit me with force of a lightning bolt. I reeled with ecstasy as I devoured recordings of his operas one after another. Tristan, in the famous Bohm version, had me in thrall for several weeks during which I ate, drank and breathed nothing else, even listening to it on a CD Walkman on the elliptical trainer at the gym, turning the volume higher to drown out the rap and rock music on the speakers. My wife thought I had gone insane, as for months I would speak of nothing but Wagner. This extreme and crazy obsessiveness has settled down to steady love.

I still think of him as the greatest musician in history, with the power to radically revitalize a person's existence. Two orchestral passages from The Ring are my current favorites: Wotan's Farewell to Brunnehilde, and Siegfried's Funeral Music. What irony that an opera composer should revolutionize the symphony, both orchestra and form, as well as the opera.  Who else could do it? Who else can cause the heart to leap with joy as high, explore depths as hidden, wrench the emotions almost out of their moorings? The Funeral Music: the most powerful of movements ever, or at least equal to the most powerful. I get chills down my back just writing about it. Next to this, most other music is "mere;" prelude or postlude.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on May 20, 2007, 09:44:30 AM
Quote from: chaszz on May 19, 2007, 05:57:13 PM
I'm new to this board and glad to discover a page devoted to my favorite composer. At the relatively old age of about 60, seven years ago, after a lifetime of listening spent mostly with Bach, Beethoven and Brahms, Wagner suddenly hit me with force of a lightning bolt. I reeled with ecstasy as I devoured recordings of his operas one after another. Tristan, in the famous Bohm version, had me in thrall for several weeks during which I ate, drank and breathed nothing else, even listening to it on a CD Walkman on the elliptical trainer at the gym, turning the volume higher to drown out the rap and rock music on the speakers. My wife thought I had gone insane, as for months I would speak of nothing but Wagner. This extreme and crazy obsessiveness has settled down to steady love.

I still think of him as the greatest musician in history, with the power to radically revitalize a person's existence. Two orchestral passages from The Ring are my current favorites: Wotan's Farewell to Brunnehilde, and Siegfried's Funeral Music. What irony that an opera composer should revolutionize the symphony, both orchestra and form, as well as the opera.  Who else could do it? Who else can cause the heart to leap with joy as high, explore depths as hidden, wrench the emotions almost out of their moorings? The Funeral Music: the most powerful of movements ever, or at least equal to the most powerful. I get chills down my back just writing about it. Next to this, most other music is "mere;" prelude or postlude.



   Its GREAT to have another Wagner fan join GMG, WELCOME chaszz.   Its never too late to enjoy Wagner's operas (muisc dramas) nor too early (I fell in love with his music at the age of 32).  Seigfreid's FUNERAL MARCH is truelly one of the major highlights of the Ring Cycle just like Wotan's Farewell to Brunnehilde.  I also love the heroic music of Seigfreid's sword forging scene, the three question exchange between Mime and Wotan as well as the Reinmaden's Rheingold leitmotif.  Like you Wagner's music moves me more more than the music of any other composer.  Tristan und Isolde is my favorite opera.  ACT 3 of that opera is the most emotional music I have ever heard.   

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Chaszz on May 20, 2007, 02:19:52 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on May 20, 2007, 09:44:30 AM
   Its GREAT to have another Wagner fan join GMG, WELCOME chaszz.   Its never too late to enjoy Wagner's operas (muisc dramas) nor too early (I fell in love with his music at the age of 32).  Seigfreid's FUNERAL MARCH is truelly one of the major highlights of the Ring Cycle just like Wotan's Farewell to Brunnehilde.  I also love the heroic music of Seigfreid's sword forging scene, the three question exchange between Mime and Wotan as well as the Reinmaden's Rheingold leitmotif.  Like you Wagner's music moves me more more than the music of any other composer.  Tristan und Isolde is my favorite opera.  ACT 3 of that opera is the most emotional music I have ever heard.   

  marvin

Thank you for your warm welcome, Marvin. I look forward to many exchanges on the subject of the man who is in my opinion not only the greatest musician in history, but a fair bidder for the title of the greatest artist in any medium in history.

Tristan is also my favorite opera; for me it is the long love duet in Act II, combined with the 'Liebestod' closing the opera which is its natural sequel, that counts as my deepest thrill in this amazing work, which the Master tossed off while resting in the middle of composing The Ring, as a relative trifle, easy to mount and perform(!), to earn some money! And also of course to express and immortalize his longing for his adulterous lover Mathilde Weisndonck. And in the process backhandedly began the concept of expanded tonality which utterly changed music, and which concept he never at all mentioned, not even once, in his long voluminous bookshelf of prose writings on music and nearly every other subject! And which opera killed the first tenor who sang it! You couldn't make this stuff up!

One question: why is Verdi your avatar? 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on May 20, 2007, 02:30:34 PM
Well, I'm just begining to get into the Wagner operas and it looks like its going to be a lifelong journey  ;) I'm chipping away at The Ring and highlights from the other operas which will act as 'signposts' when I dive into the operas proper.

The Wagner movie was great.

The Met/Levine Ring cycle sounds great too, and I think, a good way to start getting into the ring as opposed to sitting down with the long operas. A good way to begin to get a 'handle' on the massive work.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on May 20, 2007, 02:47:08 PM
Quote from: chaszz on May 20, 2007, 02:19:52 PM
Thank you for your warm welcome, Marvin. I look forward to many exchanges on the subject of the man who is in my opinion not only the greatest musician in history, but a fair bidder for the title of greatest artist in history.

One question: why is Verdi your avatar? 

    Look forward to it too.  Why Verdi as my avatar? Because Verdi is my other love interest.  He epitomizes Italian Opera (rivalling Mozart in my opinion) as Wagner epotimizes German opera.  Some interesting facts: both Verdi and Wagner were born the same year 1813, both were rivals but never met.  Somehow I believe they  had great respect for each other.  Both Verdi and Wagner had a sense of drama and could convey powerful emotions through their music.  Both wrote one hit opera after the next.  Verdi's mature operas are true masterpeices (Otello, Aida, Falstaff, Rigolleto, Don Carlo,  La Traviata to name a few) as are Wagner's (The Ring Cycle, Tristan und Isolde, Meistersingers, Parsifal, Tannhauser even Lohengrin and The Flying Dutchman).  I own a little under 50 operas, 11 from Wagner and 10 from Verdi (my collection is lop-sided   :)) 


    I will change my avatar to something related to Wagner some day in the near future  :)

   marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on May 20, 2007, 03:10:43 PM
Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on May 20, 2007, 02:30:34 PM
Well, I'm just begining to get into the Wagner operas and it looks like its going to be a lifelong journey  ;) I'm chipping away at The Ring and highlights from the other operas which will act as 'signposts' when I dive into the operas proper.

The Wagner movie was great.

The Met/Levine Ring cycle sounds great too, and I think, a good way to start getting into the ring as opposed to sitting down with the long operas. A good way to begin to get a 'handle' on the massive work.

   The MET/Levine is the only DVD recording I have of the Ring Cycle.  While some people will tell you that it is not perfect I personally found much in it that was attractive:

    1) the stage setting
    2) the costumes
    3) the special effects (I won't tell you what they are for fear of ruining the experience)
    4) it had James Morris as Wotan and Jessye Norman as Sieglinde

    The stage setting is true to Wagner's intent. This is not a modern adaptation.  While the the Solti  Ring Cycle (audio cd) has the ideal cast vocally this set is IMHO a good place to start. 

  marvin   
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on May 20, 2007, 03:16:18 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on May 20, 2007, 03:10:43 PM
   The MET/Levine is the only DVD recording I have of the Ring Cycle.  While some people will tell you that it is not perfect I personally found much in it that was attractive:

    1) the stage setting
    2) the costumes
    3) the special effects (I won't tell you what they are for fear of ruining the experience)
    4) it had James Morris as Wotan and Jessye Norman as Sieglinde

    The stage setting is true to Wagner's intent. This is not a modern adaptation.  While the the Solti  Ring Cycle (audio cd) has the ideal cast vocally this set is IMHO a good place to start. 

  marvin   

Yes, thats a major factor for me. I'm very interested to view this.  :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on May 20, 2007, 05:09:40 PM
Is this from that Levine/Met DVD set?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IzjI0opkaIk
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on May 20, 2007, 06:53:57 PM
Yes it is.  :-[
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on May 20, 2007, 07:01:01 PM
Quote from: uffeviking on May 20, 2007, 06:53:57 PM
Yes it is.  :-[

Yes, I've just bought it at Amazon and noticed the cover images were the same.

I've been putting off buying it for a year but the time is right!

I think the visual aspect will help with the understanding of the saga. Listening to vocal highlights recently was a bit daunting.

Are they tears of joy or sadness?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on May 20, 2007, 07:13:45 PM
You noticed?  ;)

Tears of sadness, but I do not want to diminish your enjoyment of your first visual meeting with Wagner's Ring. My very first meeting too was with raven-winged helmets and wolf skin clad Siegfrieds, but I was only six years old. By now I have discovered many different ideas of how to present this monumental Gesamtkunstwerk, and it makes me sad to see the ancient Met Ring still getting so much attention.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on May 20, 2007, 07:25:58 PM
Aha.

I guess the Wagner journey is a long one so I understand what you're saying.  :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on May 20, 2007, 07:33:48 PM
That's the spirit and that's the right attitude for starting this fascinating journey. Yes, the Met is basic, a bit on the primitive side, but if you were to start it with the latest concept production, it might make you stop your exploration. Have a great journey, Solitary Wanderer; you won't be too solitary because many Wagner friends here at GMG are ready and willing to help and guide, if guidance you seek.  :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Michel on May 21, 2007, 02:28:41 AM
The tone of your post is a little sick, but I agree, I think Wagner is great.

I am suprised you didn't mention Parsifal - it is my favourite opera of his, and one of my favourite operas of all.

Incidently, I was walking about in London yesterday and came across this place:  ;D

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=parsifal+road&sll=51.554968,-0.192626&sspn=0.006471,0.020084&ie=UTF8&ll=51.554968,-0.19284&spn=0.006471,0.020084&z=16&iwloc=addr&om=1
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on May 21, 2007, 05:17:47 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on May 20, 2007, 02:47:08 PM
    Look forward to it too.  Why Verdi as my avatar? Because Verdi is my other love interest.  He epitomizes Italian Opera (rivalling Mozart in my opinion) as Wagner epotimizes German opera





Me too, Marvin! Verdi was for me the height of Italian Opera. Mozart was of course very close, but alot of times I get the impression that his German operas were better than the Italian. The Verdi works that you mentioned are simply more dramatic and "Italian". Again, this is my opinion.

I consider Mozart, Wagner, and Verdi to be literal Wonders of the World.





Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on May 21, 2007, 05:19:10 AM
Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on May 20, 2007, 03:16:18 PM
Yes, thats a major factor for me. I'm very interested to view this.  :)



I got the Levine DVD Ring as a whole (NEW!) from Newbury Comics for just over $75.oo. Believe me, it was worth every penny.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on May 21, 2007, 05:21:18 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on May 20, 2007, 07:13:45 PM
You noticed?  ;)

Tears of sadness, but I do not want to diminish your enjoyment of your first visual meeting with Wagner's Ring. My very first meeting too was with raven-winged helmets and wolf skin clad Siegfrieds, but I was only six years old. By now I have discovered many different ideas of how to present this monumental Gesamtkunstwerk, and it makes me sad to see the ancient Met Ring still getting so much attention.




I agree. Youtube can spoil things...it's more exciting just buying the whole dvd set and loving the Wonder of it all, no preconceptions, just being totally Open.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on May 21, 2007, 05:22:39 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on May 20, 2007, 07:33:48 PM
That's the spirit and that's the right attitude for starting this fascinating journey. Yes, the Met is basic, a bit on the primitive side, but if you were to start it with the latest concept production, it might make you stop your exploration. Have a great journey, Solitary Wanderer; you won't be too solitary because many Wagner friends here at GMG are ready and willing to help and guide, if guidance you seek.  :)






JA! I'm with you! That's what this board is for, right?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Michel on May 21, 2007, 06:00:59 AM
Have you ever heard of quoting more than one thing in one post; you have instantly wrecked this thread with a load of posts.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on May 21, 2007, 06:04:49 AM
Quote from: Michel on May 21, 2007, 02:28:41 AM
The tone of your post is a little sick, but I agree, I think Wagner is great.

I am suprised you didn't mention Parsifal - it is my favourite opera of his, and one of my favourite operas of all.

I haven't yet done aught more than listen to some of (mostly) the instrumental music to this;  for the most part, I think it some of the best Wagner I've heard!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on May 21, 2007, 06:07:02 AM
Quote from: Michel on May 21, 2007, 06:00:59 AM
Have you ever heard of quoting more than one thing in one post; you have instantly wrecked this thread with a load of posts.




Oh dear.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Michel on May 21, 2007, 06:23:46 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 21, 2007, 06:04:49 AM
I haven't yet done aught more than listen to some of (mostly) the instrumental music to this;  for the most part, I think it some of the best Wagner I've heard!

Karl,

Listen to the final scene!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 21, 2007, 07:37:28 AM
Quote from: Haffner on May 21, 2007, 06:07:02 AM
Oh dear.

Yep, now you've done it, Andy! Might as well just go ahead and lock this thread down. It's obviously, and completely, ruined  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on May 21, 2007, 07:59:23 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 21, 2007, 07:37:28 AM
Yep, now you've done it, Andy! Might as well just go ahead and lock this thread down. It's obviously, and completely, ruined  ;D

Sarge




ZOUNDS
!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on May 22, 2007, 03:41:43 AM
Quote from: Haffner on May 21, 2007, 05:17:47 AM



I consider Mozart, Wagner, and Verdi to be literal Wonders of the World.


  Looks like you found yourself another Triumvirate Andy  :)!!!  I remember when you were telling me about "Andy's Triumvirate" consisting of Beethoven, Mozart and Haydn.  What's the common link you ask? Answer: MOZART of course (a testament to that GREAT man's GENIUS ) 

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on May 22, 2007, 05:15:13 AM
Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on May 20, 2007, 07:01:01 PM
Yes, I've just bought it at Amazon and noticed the cover images were the same.

I've been putting off buying it for a year but the time is right!

I think the visual aspect will help with the understanding of the saga. Listening to vocal highlights recently was a bit daunting.

Are they tears of joy or sadness?

   Solitary Wanderer my only advice to you is to forget about the highlights cds you have of the Ring and to  "dive" right in to the complete staged production of the Ring (Just like I did  0:)).  That Ring Cycle is an ocean of melody (leitmotif) and drama, a magnificent work of art that should be experienced from start to finish .  To ease the experince think of the Ring as a movie with one REMARKABLE score.   Write back if you need a life jacket.....everybody is here to help.

  PS: Don't forget the popcorn  ;) !

   marvin 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on May 22, 2007, 06:23:53 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on May 22, 2007, 03:41:43 AM
  Looks like you found yourself another Triumvirate Andy  :)!!!  I remember when you were telling me about "Andy's Triumvirate" consisting of Beethoven, Mozart and Haydn.  What's the common link you ask? Answer: MOZART of course (a testament to that GREAT man's GENIUS ) 

  marvin




Absolutely, Marvin! Mozart slays me each time I take a rest from his music and then go back to it. Many aren't aware that much of his greatest music can be found in his String Trios and Duos. k266 sounds to me like sweetest resignation, and of course the Divertimento k563 is desert island material for me!

As you probably already know,many of the vocal parts Wagner wrote for his characters have their influences from Mozart's Magic Flute and Don Giovanni.

Wouldn't it have been fabulous to have heard Wagner's arrangement of Don Giovanni!!!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Chaszz on May 22, 2007, 08:23:28 AM
Quote from: Haffner on May 22, 2007, 06:23:53 AM



Absolutely, Marvin! Mozart slays me each time I take a rest from his music and then go back to it. Many aren't aware that much of his greatest music can be found in his String Trios and Duos. k266 sounds to me like sweetest resignation, and of course the Divertimento k563 is desert island material for me!

As you probably already know,many of the vocal parts Wagner wrote for his characters have their influences from Mozart's Magic Flute and Don Giovanni.

Wouldn't it have been fabulous to have heard Wagner's arrangement of Don Giovanni!!!

It would also be quite interesting to hear Wagner's arrangement of Beethoven's Ninth for larger orchestra. I can't find a recording of it. Does anyone know of one?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Chaszz on June 03, 2007, 05:17:14 AM
What is your favorite Wagner aria, whether for one or more vocalists?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 04, 2007, 03:32:48 AM
Quote from: chaszz on June 03, 2007, 05:17:14 AM
What is your favorite Wagner aria, whether for one or more vocalists?

I've a nostalgic attachment to O du, mein holder Abendstern from Tannhäuser: my grandfather enjoyed singing it, accompanying himself at the piano. It may be the first bit of Wagner I ever heard.

My favorite, though, is Winterstürme wichen dem Wonnemond from Act I Scene 3 of Die Walküre.

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on June 04, 2007, 07:19:15 AM
If ACD were still with us he could clarify the question, often asked, if Winterstürme is a true aria. Some experts even state that Wagner never wrote any arias. Maybe it depends on the musicological definition of what constitutes an aria.  ???
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 04, 2007, 07:32:06 AM
Strictly speaking Wagner never wrote an aria, or an opera either. Aria and opera are Italian terms, and Wagner hated Italian opera.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on June 04, 2007, 07:46:36 AM
Point well made - and taken!  ;D

Would you then please tag a name on to those pieces of singing, accompanied by an orchestra?  :-\
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on June 04, 2007, 07:51:07 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 04, 2007, 07:32:06 AM
Strictly speaking Wagner never wrote an aria, or an opera either.

But did he not write operas before he devised the term "music drama"? (Which maybe he borrowed from Italian sources, dramma per musica and all that.)

Though of course, revisionism was a favorite pastime of Wagner's . . . .
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on June 04, 2007, 07:52:01 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 04, 2007, 07:32:06 AM
Strictly speaking Wagner never wrote an aria, or an opera either. Aria and opera are Italian terms, and Wagner hated Italian opera.

Are we throwing Rienzi (to say nothing of the early works Die Feen and Das Liebesverbot) out? I think most musicologists, and Wagnerians, would have to agree that those are operas - strictly speaking. In fact, I thought that the transition from grand opera to music-drama happened over the Holländer-Tannhäuser-Lohengrin sequence (c. 1840-1850).

Quote from: karlhenning on June 04, 2007, 07:51:07 AM
But did he not write operas before he devised the term "music drama"? (Which maybe he borrowed from Italian sources, dramma per musica and all that.)

Though of course, revisionism was a favorite pastime of Wagner's . . . .

Ah, leave it to Karl to beat me to the punch. Well, my answer has a nice pedantry to it.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 04, 2007, 07:52:44 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on June 04, 2007, 07:46:36 AM
Point well made - and taken!  ;D

Would you then please tag a name on to those pieces of singing, accompanied by an orchestra?  :-\

I haven't got a clue ;D These have grown to be known as Siegmund's Wooing Song or Wotan's Farewell.


But seriously they are different from traditional Italian arias. One thing I can think of is that in Italian arias time totally freezes (think Caro Nome from Rigoletto). In pieces like Wintersturme or Elisabeth's entrance in Tannhauser there is still action going on when the singing is going on. So the piece is part of the action, which is different from Italian arias.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on June 04, 2007, 07:53:13 AM
Quote from: PSmith08 on June 04, 2007, 07:52:01 AM
Ah, leave it to Karl to beat me to the punch. Well, my answer has a nice pedantry to it.

;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on June 04, 2007, 07:53:33 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on June 04, 2007, 07:46:36 AM
Would you then please tag a name on to those pieces of singing, accompanied by an orchestra?  :-\

Wubba-wubba?  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 04, 2007, 07:54:35 AM
Quote from: PSmith08 on June 04, 2007, 07:52:01 AM
Are we throwing Rienzi (to say nothing of the early works Die Feen and Das Liebesverbot) out? I think most musicologists, and Wagnerians, would have to agree that those are operas - strictly speaking. In fact, I thought that the transition from grand opera to music-drama happened over the Holländer-Tannhäuser-Lohengrin sequence (c. 1840-1850).

Ah, leave it to Karl to beat me to the punch. Well, my answer has a nice pedantry to it.

Well, I do not consider Rienzi and the other two "operas" works of the Wagner I enjoy. However one chooses to characterize them I don't really care one way or another 0:)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on June 04, 2007, 07:55:30 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 04, 2007, 07:54:35 AM
Well, I do not consider Rienzi and the other two "operas" works of the Wagner I enjoy. However one chooses to characterize them I don't really care one way or another 0:)

Beside the point. You agree that he wrote them?  ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on June 04, 2007, 07:57:37 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 04, 2007, 07:54:35 AM
Well, I do not consider Rienzi and the other two "operas" works of the Wagner I enjoy. However one chooses to characterize them I don't really care one way or another 0:)

Well, they're not Bayreuth canon, but they're still Wagner.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 04, 2007, 07:58:44 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 04, 2007, 07:55:30 AM
Beside the point. You agree that he wrote them?  ;D

Maybe Matilda wrote them?

Anyway I rarely listen to anything before the Ring.
Duchman and Lohengrin are pretty good but nothing special. Tannhauser is just a trainwreck altogether. I have no clue what THAT opera is about.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on June 04, 2007, 08:01:37 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 04, 2007, 07:58:44 AM
Maybe Matilda wrote them?

Anyway I rarely listen to anything before the Ring.
Holländer and Lohengrin are pretty good but nothing special. Tannhäuser is just a trainwreck altogether. I have no clue what THAT opera is about.

I think it's about the pope's staff flowering.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on June 04, 2007, 08:03:36 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 04, 2007, 07:58:44 AM
Maybe Matilda wrote them?

You're working on a sequel to The Da Vinci Code, aren't you?  8)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on June 04, 2007, 08:10:12 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 04, 2007, 07:58:44 AM
Maybe Matilda wrote them?

I thought Mathilde only wrote very boring Lieder? - Leaving, going for a hair cut and when I return maybe we got this settled, but it sure is entertaining!  :D

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 04, 2007, 09:19:14 AM
Interesting discussion but...I understood what Chaszz meant, and wanted, and I answered him.

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on June 04, 2007, 09:22:58 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 04, 2007, 07:53:33 AM
Wubba-wubba?  ;D ;D ;D



Well, Karl isn't being very specific. There is the wubba-wubba as the overall ensemble. But there is also the male and female duetti (the "dubba trubba"), the piccolo section ("baby bubba"), and of course the cross-dressing baritone called "Hell-of-a-Hubba-Bubba".
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on June 04, 2007, 09:36:54 AM
The wubba-wubba about which we can be specific, is not the true wubba-wubba :-)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on June 04, 2007, 10:05:27 AM
Flash of ingenuity while getting my hair cut: We can't the Winterstürme and Abendstern be classified as a Lied?. After all, we do have the Preislied in Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg and, as far as I know, Wagner gave it this title. Or was this Cosima's interfering brainstorm?  :-\
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on June 04, 2007, 10:16:18 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 04, 2007, 09:36:54 AM
The wubba-wubba about which we can be specific, is not the true wubba-wubba :-)





AAAhhhh...I see now, great Grasshoppa! (I'll try not to say nuthin' to the Big Bloppa 'bout this, chile).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on June 04, 2007, 12:09:32 PM
Thought I was on the Favorite Funk thread for a moment there . . . .
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Yasser on June 04, 2007, 12:27:04 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 04, 2007, 07:32:06 AM
Strictly speaking Wagner never wrote an aria, or an opera either. Aria and opera are Italian terms, and Wagner hated Italian opera.

Where did you get this from? Wagner was influenced by Bellini and declared Rossini to be a genius.

Yasser
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 04, 2007, 01:08:24 PM
Quote from: Yasser on June 04, 2007, 12:27:04 PM
Where did you get this from? Wagner was influenced by Bellini and declared Rossini to be a genius.

Yasser

Really? He also thought Verdi was a hack and not much of a composer.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Chaszz on June 04, 2007, 05:22:11 PM
As Sarge guessed, I meant aria in the wider, inexact sense of a soloist, or soloists, accompanied by orchestra. My favorite is the quintet from Meistersinger, followed closely by the Spring Song from Walkure.

As for Lohengrin and Tannhauser, I personally love them both. For me its the music that counts most. Both of these have some very glorious music. As a matter of fact, the musical inspiration in Lohengrin rarely if ever flags from beginning to end.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 04, 2007, 05:44:09 PM
Quote from: chaszz on June 04, 2007, 05:22:11 PM
As Sarge guessed, I meant aria in the wider, inexact sense of a soloist, or soloists, accompanied by orchestra. My favorite is the quintet from Meistersinger, followed closely by the Spring Song from Walkure.

As for Lohengrin and Tannhauser, I personally love them both. For me its the music that counts most. Both of these have some very glorious music. As a matter of fact, the musical inspiration in Lohengrin rarely if ever flags from beginning to end.



If Wagner never wrote another note after Lohengrin, he would be considered a very good composer already, probably on the same plateau as Bellini, Rossini, and Donizetti. It is what he did AFTERWARDS that makes him almost super-human. Tannhauser, Dutchman, and Lohengrin all contained some wonderful music, but none displayed the sort of out-of-nowhere genius that came afterwards. It is almost impossible to comprehend how far Wagner progressed from Lohengrin to Rheingold. Lohengrin is almost Italian-like with its sweeping arches of melody. With Rheingold everything is more direct, more angular, and more organic. To me the jump from Lohengrin to the Ring Cycle is tantamount to Beethoven going from the second to third symphonies, or Sibelius going from the 2nd to 3rd symphonies, or Shostakovich going from his third to fourth symphonies. You never see it coming.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Yasser on June 05, 2007, 10:55:29 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 04, 2007, 01:08:24 PM
Really? He also thought Verdi was a hack and not much of a composer.

So how does that translate into "Wagner hated Italian Opera"?

Yasser
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on June 05, 2007, 08:22:07 PM
Quote from: uffeviking on June 04, 2007, 07:19:15 AM
If ACD were still with us he could clarify the question, often asked, if Winterstürme is a true aria.

He might not be here as a registered member of GMG but there are other channels of communication with old friends, helpful friends, to be specific. I won't bore you with who stated this and who replied thusly, but pass on the information I have received in ref. to the latest discussion.

There is no recording of Wagner's orchestral arrangement of Beethoven's Ninth for the simple reason, he never wrote one.

Next: Winterstürme is indeed an aria, a simple-form aria and Wagner has warned the singers to not sing it as an aria because it might destroy the dramatic import. Why he wrote an aria and did not want it to be sung as aria, this question has no known answer.

Next: Stage works Wagner wrote before Das Rheingold are all operas, loaded with arias etc.

And yes, Wagner held all Italian operas in deepest contempt, but he rather liked Bellini's Norma and Rossini's Il Barbière. Wagner was not influenced by Bellini and never declared Rossini to be a genius.


To get correct answers to questions re. Richard Wagner, all one has to do is consult an expert. Who, BTW. has proved me wrong more than once and I always appreciated learning about one of my favorite composers from a knowledgeable source of everything Wagnerian.  :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 06, 2007, 04:12:27 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on June 05, 2007, 08:22:07 PM
Next: Winterstürme is indeed an aria, a simple-form aria and Wagner has warned the singers to not sing it as an aria because it might destroy the dramatic import. Why he wrote an aria and did not want it to be sung as aria, this question has no known answer.

Next: Stage works Wagner wrote before Das Rheingold are all operas, loaded with arias etc.

Which fully justifies my choice of music and answer to Chaszz. Apparently I'm as much of a Wagner expert as the sainted ACD...which doesn't surprise me: I've been studying the composer and his music since I was 13...45 years now. I should start a blog  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Yasser on June 06, 2007, 05:20:35 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on June 05, 2007, 08:22:07 PM

And yes, Wagner held all Italian operas in deepest contempt, but he rather liked Bellini's Norma and Rossini's Il Barbière. Wagner was not influenced by Bellini and never declared Rossini to be a genius.


To get correct answers to questions re. Richard Wagner, all one has to do is consult an expert. Who, BTW. has proved me wrong more than once and I always appreciated learning about one of my favorite composers from a knowledgeable source of everything Wagnerian.  :)

Excuse me, but who made ACD THE expert in Wagner? His views are just one man's views, not an authority. I have never claimed any expertise in Wagner, all I have done so far is writing what I know about this composer. FYI, he did declare Rossini to be a genius, unlike what ACD or anyone else claims:

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0027-4666%2819070401%2948%3A770%3C231%3ACM%28%3E2.0.CO%3B2-4&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage

Read the paragraph that starts with "As they came away Wagner acknowledged..."

I thought this was an open-minded forum where we can share our knowledge and passion for opera, not some sort of new feeds from so-called experts.

Yasser
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on June 06, 2007, 05:51:20 AM
Indeed it is an open-minded forum and I am sharing my information received from a person I respect and whose in depth study of Wagner I am familiar with.   ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Chaszz on June 06, 2007, 08:15:04 AM
It seems to me that there is no foremost expert on Wagner anywhere. The disagreements this composer is likely to arouse among music lovers are legion and admit of no complete expertise. Whether or not he satirized Jews in his operas will be a point of contention down the ages to come. In general, the primary sources, such as Mein Leben and Cosima's Diaries, are open to possibilities of bending the truth, and reminiscences of other people are open to the possibilities of faulty remembrances. So I don't admit of any complete expert, and the refutation of the above point on Rossini is a good example of a so-called expert who makes a blanket statement (Wagner never said Rossini was a genius) and happens to be mistaken.

It is no surprise that the referenced ACD causes disputes even in his absence. I wonder why he is no longer here - did he wear out his welcome by his crude behavior as he has on so many music forums? His habit of calling those with whom he disagrees 'idiots' does little positive to reflect on his presumptive expertise.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on June 06, 2007, 08:51:01 AM
Quote from: chaszz on June 06, 2007, 08:15:04 AM
I wonder why he is no longer here

No need to wonder. It was the gentleman's personal decision to delete his membership at GMG.  :)

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Anne on June 06, 2007, 10:07:10 AM
In the liner notes of one of her recordings, Jane Eaglen specifically singled out Bellini as a composer admired by Wagner who also influenced him (Wagner)  - specifically regarding his (Bellini's) long arches of melodies.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on June 06, 2007, 01:16:48 PM
Quote from: Yasser on June 06, 2007, 05:20:35 AM

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0027-4666%2819070401%2948%3A770%3C231%3ACM%28%3E2.0.CO%3B2-4&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage

Read the paragraph that starts with "As they came away Wagner acknowledged..."

IYasser

Oh let's continue, please, I enjoy this thread because I received a reply to the above link from ACD:

"The person who linked that fragment of a magazine article should learn that
1) a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and 2) never bet the farm on
quotes taken out of context.

The sentence in that magazine article that reads, "And he [Wagner] added a
few words of Rossini's genius as a composer...," are not Wagner's words, but
the words of Herbert Thompson, the author of the magazine article.
Thompson's source is a small volume entitled, _Richard Wagner's Visit to
Rossini & An Evening at Rossini's in Beau-Sejour_, written and published in
1906, some 46 years after the fact, by one, Edmond Michotte.  Michotte quotes
Wagner as saying as they left Rossini's apartment:

"What mightn't he (Rossini) have produced if he had been given a strong,
complete musical education?  Especially if, less Italian and less skeptical,
he had felt inside him the religion of his art.  There can be no doubt that
he would have taken off on a flight that would have raised him to the highest
peaks.  In a word, he is a genius who was led astray by not having been well
prepared, and not having found the milieu for which his high creative
abilities had designed him."

Notice the conditional tense throughout.  IOW, a carefully worded,
left-handed compliment, complete with 19th-century excess in the wording."

Answers my doubts about the linked publication. - And I thank ACD for helping me out here. Still wish he were here though!  :(

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Yasser on June 06, 2007, 01:38:15 PM
Quote from: uffeviking on June 06, 2007, 01:16:48 PM
Oh let's continue, please, I enjoy this thread because I received a reply to the above link from ACD:

"The person who linked that fragment [...]


Sorry Uffe, but I have no desire to respond to such posts when I am being refrerred to as "The person who". Only if ACD wants to respond to me directly and do it respectfully by using my name.

I enjoy your posts and always look forward to your recommendations when it comes to operas on DVD and I hope I can still read your personal opinions here more and more.

Anne,

Thank you for your post regarding Bellini.

Yasser
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Anne on June 06, 2007, 02:02:54 PM
You're welcome, Yasser.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on July 25, 2007, 02:11:09 PM
Quote from: Greta on April 14, 2007, 09:03:56 AM
I discovered Tristan also when I was the same age as Don Giovanni, and felt the same way about it. I still do!

Tristan's Prelude & Liebestod, a textbook example of building unresolved tension into a mindblowing release, holds a very special place, considered as one of the greatest moments in all music to me.

You'll come to know and recognize the "Tristan chord", and recognize that famous first statement of a sixth and two half-steps, they can be spotted making appearances in later' composers works.

In just a couple of weeks in Houston, I'll be going to an all-Wagner concert and I'm so excited! They just posted the program and I'm most looking forward to hearing several selections from Lohengrin, and especially Die Meistersinger, both of which I have never heard live. No Tristan this time though. ;) But the Der Fliegende Hollander overture more than makes up for it!

Heres the line-up for my September Wagner concert!

NZSO

Friday 7 September 6.30pm WELLINGTON Town Hall Ticketek 

PROGRAMME
Die Meistersinger Prelude
Lohengrin Prelude (Act 1)
Tristan und Isolde: Prelude and Liebestod
The Flying Dutchman Overture
Tannhaüser Overture
Gotterdammerung: Immolation Scene


FEATURED ARTISTS
Yannick Nézet-Séguin Conductor
Margaret Medlyn Soprano

:)



Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on July 25, 2007, 02:26:50 PM
Quote from: chaszz on May 22, 2007, 08:23:28 AM
It would also be quite interesting to hear Wagner's arrangement of Beethoven's Ninth for larger orchestra. I can't find a recording of it. Does anyone know of one?

I have a recording of Wagners piano & choral arrangement of Beethovens 9th ???
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on July 25, 2007, 02:32:46 PM
At this stage a fave 'moment' is Donners horn call when summoning the thunder in scene.4. of Das Reingold.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on July 25, 2007, 02:45:28 PM
I'm having an intense Wagner week as I dive into the complete Ring cycle for the first time.

So I'm listening to this;

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lGefabD1L._AA240_.jpg)

and this

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/21S1XC3Q70L.jpg)

and this

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AKKRH9MPL._AA240_.jpg)

while reading this

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0500281947.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)

and watching this!

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WP0TM96NL._AA240_.jpg)

I've also recently read this;

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51600P3RCHL._AA240_.jpg)

and

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0486237796.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)

and the two P.Frank Russell graphic novel adaptations :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: m_gigena on July 25, 2007, 05:55:09 PM
Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on July 25, 2007, 02:45:28 PM
I'm having an intense Wagner week as I dive into the complete Ring cycle for the first time.



Me too. Tomorrow I'll listen to the last act of Gotterdammerung and I will have finally listened to the whole Ring, for the first time.
I got the only Ring I have last year (From the Bayreuth Festival in 1952, conducted by Joseph Keilberth), and played some parts as background music while studying then. My objective for the current winter holydays was to listen to the whole ring in detail, with the libretto and translations in hand, and I'm very happy because I'm about to complete it.

I like this Keilberth cycle very, very much, and I don't feel like listening to other sets now. After some google searches I found out that many people list Keilberth's '52 as one of the finest sets available.
I'm getting the famous Solti set, Furtwangler's from 1950 at La Scala, and Keilberth's 1953 at Bayreuth (as I said, I don't feel like trying other sets right now, but I may intend that in the future, and I want to be prepared then).

Do you have any suggestions for more Ring cycles? (or valid reasons for me to abort any of the listed current downloads; aside copyright infringement considerations)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 25, 2007, 06:01:57 PM
Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on July 25, 2007, 02:45:28 PM
I'm having an intense Wagner week as I dive into the complete Ring cycle for the first time.

So I'm listening to this;

and this

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AKKRH9MPL._AA240_.jpg)


Yuck, no self-respecting Wagnerian will listen to that garbage. It is an insult to Wagner dumb down to appeal to the lowest denominator.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on July 25, 2007, 06:04:27 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 25, 2007, 06:01:57 PM
Yuck, no self-respecting Wagnerian will listen to that garbage. It is an insult to Wagner dumb down to appeal to the lowest denominator.

Fair enough.

Personally I found it to be an excellent entry point to such a massive work. Especially as I had an issue with opera singing prior to that. Its lead me to the main operas and provided 'signposts' as I listen.

:)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: grandma on July 25, 2007, 06:31:31 PM
"(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AKKRH9MPL._AA240_.jpg)"


SW,

When a friend helped me begin to appreciate The Ring, first he had me listen to Maazel's Ring Without Words; then he had me buy a Ring Highlights CD.  There are many.  I chose the one conducted by Solti.

Wagner uses voices in his operas as other instruments in an orchestra.  The singers do not sing melodies (for the most part - there are exceptions) as we've come to expect in other composers' operas.  One of the easiest ways to understand what I am trying to say, is to listen to the music without the singers (The Ring Without Words CD).  Then listen to the same music with singers.  (You'll need to purchase the highlight CD.)

By listening to the CD's in this order, you will understand how Wagner uses voices in his music.  First, you will have heard the music without voices, then with voices.

My experience was that I came to enjoy the music without the voices and didn't see any necessity to add the singers.  But once I listened to the singer version, I was amazed how much the voices added to the listening experience, and didn't want to go back to the "incomplete" Ring Without Words.  Hope this helps.

Wagner is worth every effort you have to make to learn his music.  If you have trouble, let us know.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: grandma on July 25, 2007, 06:43:24 PM
Quote from: Manuel on July 25, 2007, 05:55:09 PM
Me too. Tomorrow I'll listen to the last act of Gotterdammerung and I will have finally listened to the whole Ring, for the first time.
I got the only Ring I have last year (From the Bayreuth Festival in 1952, conducted by Joseph Keilberth), and played some parts as background music while studying then. My objective for the current winter holydays was to listen to the whole ring in detail, with the libretto and translations in hand, and I'm very happy because I'm about to complete it.

I like this Keilberth cycle very, very much, and I don't feel like listening to other sets now. After some google searches I found out that many people list Keilberth's '52 as one of the finest sets available.
I'm getting the famous Solti set, Furtwangler's from 1950 at La Scala, and Keilberth's 1953 at Bayreuth (as I said, I don't feel like trying other sets right now, but I may intend that in the future, and I want to be prepared then).

Do you have any suggestions for more Ring cycles? (or valid reasons for me to abort any of the listed current downloads; aside copyright infringement considerations)

Go to the Canadian amazon web site.  If it is still available, you will find James Levine's Ring for about $40.  It is cheap these days in Canada in honor of the first Canadian Ring being performed this year in Canada.  At Amazon US and amazon UK the price is higher.  There is no libretto with this.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on July 25, 2007, 07:46:59 PM
While I'm not sure that the orchestral versions of stuff Wagner didn't intend to be purely orchestral bothers me, as his idea of Gesamtkunstwerk intended for you to get, in David Bowie's words, the gift of sound and vision. If we're fudging with recordings, then it's really just a matter of degrees off beam.

That having been said, despite some fabulous recordings of Der Ring (such as Janowski, Barenboim, Böhm, and Boulez - all depending on how conservative or liberal a Wagnerian you are), the best recording for a first experience is Georg Solti's set. Hands down. Keilberth's 1955 Bayreuth set on Testament (though recorded by Decca) is a close runner-up. The also-rans all have some issues - ranging from minor to pretty serious - that make them less-than-ideal for a first experience.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on July 26, 2007, 03:05:28 AM
Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on July 25, 2007, 02:45:28 PM
I'm having an intense Wagner week as I dive into the complete Ring cycle for the first time.

So I'm listening to this;

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lGefabD1L._AA240_.jpg)

and this

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/21S1XC3Q70L.jpg)

and this

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AKKRH9MPL._AA240_.jpg)

while reading this

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0500281947.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)

and watching this!

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WP0TM96NL._AA240_.jpg)

I've also recently read this;

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51600P3RCHL._AA240_.jpg)

and

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0486237796.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)

and the two P.Frank Russell graphic novel adaptations :)

  WOW....and here I was thinking I was obsessed with Wagner  :).  I will second PSmith08 recommendation of the Solti Ring.  I have the Solti Ring and it is truly remarkable (so powerfull).  Glad to hear that you are getting involved so intimately with the Ring Solitary Wanderer.  Its a psychological thriller with a remarkable symphonic score.  Getting into the story, plot characters is the best way to appreciate this masterpiece.  It took Wagner over 20 years to compose- astonishing!!!!

  PS: make sure you also check out Die Meistersingers, Tristan und Isolde, and Parsifal- they are all treasure troves of drama, beautiful music and visual delights.
 
  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on July 26, 2007, 06:28:43 AM
Quote from: grandma on July 25, 2007, 06:31:31 PM
"(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AKKRH9MPL._AA240_.jpg)"


SW,

When a friend helped me begin to appreciate The Ring, first he had me listen to Maazel's Ring Without Words; then he had me buy a Ring Highlights CD.  There are many.  I chose the one conducted by Solti.

Wagner uses voices in his operas as other instruments in an orchestra.  The singers do not sing melodies (for the most part - there are exceptions) as we've come to expect in other composers' operas.  One of the easiest ways to understand what I am trying to say, is to listen to the music without the singers (The Ring Without Words CD).  Then listen to the same music with singers.  (You'll need to purchase the highlight CD.)

By listening to the CD's in this order, you will understand how Wagner uses voices in his music.  First, you will have heard the music without voices, then with voices.

My experience was that I came to enjoy the music without the voices and didn't see any necessity to add the singers.  But once I listened to the singer version, I was amazed how much the voices added to the listening experience, and didn't want to go back to the "incomplete" Ring Without Words.  Hope this helps.

Wagner is worth every effort you have to make to learn his music.  If you have trouble, let us know.


  Reflecting back on my very first encounters with Wagner and the Ring Cycle.....I never went through the various stages to listening to the Ring without words (I did not even know this existed) , and reading books etc.  My style was more Kamakazi- sink or swim- now in hindsight (thats always 20/20) I wish I had taken the time and done it in stages.  If I can offer some advice- a few things to pay attention to:

  1) Know the characters
  2) Have a good grasp of the plot and interaction between characters
  3) Pay attention to how the music associates itself with each character or object (leitmotif)
  4) Pay attention to how the music associates itself with the occuring and recuring events or actions (again leitmotif)
  5) Use 1)-4) above to experience the DRAMATIC effect- I like to turn the lights down low, get some popcorn and watch the Levine Ring on my large screen TV  ;D !!!  Hey- wasn't that Wagner's intention all along!!!

  Best of luck Solitary Wanderer and keep us posted as to how you get on- Enjoy!

  marvin
 
 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: m_gigena on July 26, 2007, 07:29:17 AM
What about this one?

(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B00000424H/ref=dp_image_0/102-3286311-2011368?ie=UTF8&n=5174&s=music)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on July 26, 2007, 09:10:35 AM
Quote from: Manuel on July 26, 2007, 07:29:17 AM
What about this one?

(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B00000424H/ref=dp_image_0/102-3286311-2011368?ie=UTF8&n=5174&s=music)


  You mean this one Manuel ? :

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NZEV35HNL._SS500_.jpg)


  Though I am not familiar with this Introduction Recording, I can tell you that the covers are identical to the COMPLETE Solti Ring Cycle that I own.  But aren't you better off investing in the COMPLETE Solti recording as opposed to an Introduction?  The Solti Ring Cycle from which this Introduction recording is taken is OUTSTANDING!!!  Perhaps somebody else on this forum can comment on this particular Introduction recording?

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: m_gigena on July 26, 2007, 09:17:09 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on July 26, 2007, 09:10:35 AM

  You mean this one Manuel ? :

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NZEV35HNL._SS500_.jpg)


Yes. That one.

What I could get from the Amazon samples is that this set is not about loosen excerpts, but motifs are exposed and explained (as in the BBC Discovering music files).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: grandma on July 26, 2007, 10:02:05 AM
Quote from: Manuel on July 26, 2007, 09:17:09 AM
Yes. That one.

What I could get from the Amazon samples is that this set is not about loosen excerpts, but motifs are exposed and explained (as in the BBC Discovering music files).


  1)  The Deryk Cooke recording was made to help people find the motifs in Wagner's Ring.  I didn't use it though I have it.  With the help of several books and Solti's Das Rheingold and multiple listenings, I finally found the 22+ motifs of Das Rheinegold (I figured if I started at the beginning Wagner couldn't get too complicated yet).  It is worth the effort to know them as it makes the music more interesting.

It would be nice if some of the experts around here would listen to Solti's Ring and give everyone the timings for the motifs on the Cd's.

  2)  There is also a disc that plays on one's computer (in mono) that displays the music (Solti's version), shows the motifs as one listens to them.  There may be more features that I have forgotten.  Does anyone know the title?  I am not home and can't remember it at the moment.  When it first came out, it cost $100.  It may be out of print now.  Can anyone else give the title?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wendell_E on July 26, 2007, 10:59:01 AM
Quote from: grandma on July 26, 2007, 10:02:05 AM

  2)  There is also a disc that plays on one's computer (in mono) that displays the music (Solti's version), shows the motifs as one listens to them.  There may be more features that I have forgotten.  Does anyone know the title?  I am not home and can't remember it at the moment.  When it first came out, it cost $100.  It may be out of print now.  Can anyone else give the title?

The Ring Disc: An Interactive Guide to Wagners Ring Cycle

Amazon.com lists one new copy available for $75.00 from one of their sellers:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000001A3A/ref=dp_olp_2/102-5423591-3069720 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000001A3A/ref=dp_olp_2/102-5423591-3069720)

I don't have it.  My first Ring recording was Furtwängler's RAI cycle on LPs, which came with a single-LP intro to the cycle identifying the motifs and playing excerpts from the recording.  I probably listened to it once, but mostly used Ernest Newman's book on the Wagner operas, which (for the post-Rienzi operas), is a great intro to the works, with info on the sources and compostion each work, followed by a synopsis with musical examples of the leitmotifs:

http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Operas-Ernest-Newman/dp/0691027161/ref=sr_1_1/102-5423591-3069720?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185476047&sr=1-1
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bhodges on July 26, 2007, 11:23:42 AM
If this has already come up, I apologize, but by any chance does anyone know of an online source for Wagner's leitmotifs?  (E.g., similar to this great reference (http://www.ccarh.org/publications/data/humdrum/tonerow/) for Berg, Schoenberg and Webern's tone rows on Themefinder.)

Edit: just found this one (http://www.trell.org/wagner/motifs.html#leitmotifs) which is pretty good.  But open to other suggestions, too.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on July 26, 2007, 11:33:31 AM
Quote from: bhodges on July 26, 2007, 11:23:42 AM
If this has already come up, I apologize, but by any chance does anyone know of an online source for Wagner's leitmotifs?  (E.g., similar to this great reference (http://www.ccarh.org/publications/data/humdrum/tonerow/) for Berg, Schoenberg and Webern's tone rows on Themefinder.)

Edit: just found this one (http://www.trell.org/wagner/motifs.html#leitmotifs) which is pretty good.  But open to other suggestions, too.

--Bruce

This site (http://www.trell.org/wagner/motifs.html) has a nice introduction to the major Leitmotiven, but it is by no means complete. The rwagner.net site is more complete, but has distracting MIDI samples with no explanation.

It is clearly not what you asked for, but the libretti for Daniel Barenboim's Bayreuth Ring have the texts and then the Leitmotiven in the margins. The recording, too, is very good - orchestrally, vocally, and sonics-wise. It is idiosyncratic at points, but is a solid second choice.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bhodges on July 26, 2007, 11:56:42 AM
Oh thanks (for both suggestions).  Appreciate the info on that Barenboim set (which might entice me to get it). 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on July 26, 2007, 12:02:24 PM
Quote from: bhodges on July 26, 2007, 11:56:42 AM
Oh thanks (for both suggestions).  Appreciate the info on that Barenboim set (which might entice me to get it). 

--Bruce

Sure thing.

I had some of the original releases of the Barenboim Ring, and when I learned that the reissue set would have the original libretti, I was most pleased. Often, the reissues just have track listings and a couple essays. It might be a "bargain" set, but it is anything but shoddy in packaging and accompanying materials. The interpretations, too, if you like Barenboim, are splendid.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bhodges on July 26, 2007, 12:08:28 PM
Quote from: PSmith08 on July 26, 2007, 12:02:24 PM
I had some of the original releases of the Barenboim Ring, and when I learned that the reissue set would have the original libretti, I was most pleased. Often, the reissues just have track listings and a couple essays. It might be a "bargain" set, but it is anything but shoddy in packaging and accompanying materials. The interpretations, too, if you like Barenboim, are splendid.

Yes, I agree: I hate it when reissues cut corners like that, and especially with libretti (and extensive notes in general).  I mean, it's not as if consumers down the line would be a) less interested in these, or b) necessarily have them in their libraries already. 

I've only heard Barenboim once in Wagner, in an excerpt with Chicago a few years ago (and can't recall what it was at the moment).  I recall liking it, though.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on July 26, 2007, 12:13:20 PM
Was it Barenboim who defied the unwritten law, and performed Wagner in Israel?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on July 26, 2007, 12:25:02 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 26, 2007, 12:13:20 PM
Was it Barenboim who defied the unwritten law, and performed Wagner in Israel?

Yes, as an encore. He made some effort to make it palatable to the audience and the nation, but still caught a lot of flak for it. I understand his point, but there are some doors better left closed.

Quote from: bhodges on July 26, 2007, 12:08:28 PM
Yes, I agree: I hate it when reissues cut corners like that, and especially with libretti (and extensive notes in general).  I mean, it's not as if consumers down the line would be a) less interested in these, or b) necessarily have them in their libraries already. 

I've only heard Barenboim once in Wagner, in an excerpt with Chicago a few years ago (and can't recall what it was at the moment).  I recall liking it, though.

--Bruce

The big companies do tend to skimp on the peripherals, for the most part, but the "boutique" labels really do offer a lot of bang for the buck. One, of course, is Testament.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on July 26, 2007, 02:02:48 PM
Quote from: Manuel on July 26, 2007, 09:17:09 AM
Yes. That one.

What I could get from the Amazon samples is that this set is not about loosen excerpts, but motifs are exposed and explained (as in the BBC Discovering music files).


Yes, it is an introduction to the motifs with a fascinating spoken dialogue by the very informed Deryck Cook. I listened to some more of it last night and found it very helpful :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on July 26, 2007, 02:05:59 PM
Listened/viewed these two last night.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lGefabD1L._AA240_.jpg)

Die Walkure Act.1.

&

(http://www.trell.org/wagner/images/dggring.jpg)

Die Walkure Act.1.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on July 26, 2007, 02:37:13 PM
Quote from: Wendell_E on July 26, 2007, 10:59:01 AM

I don't have it.  My first Ring recording was Furtwängler's RAI cycle on LPs,

  Hello Wendell_E, Furtwangler's RAI Cycle was my first Ring as well. But I bought mine on cd, although mine did NOT come with a single cd intro identifying the leitmotifs (hmm...I wonder why they removed it??).  Its an old recording and sound suffers especially the brass section- but I find Furwangler the ideal conductor for Wagner.  Considering what he had to work with, the Orchestra Sinfonica and Chorus of Radio Italia and not exactly a stellar cast either, I'd say he did a damn good job.  Some people argue (present company included) that his pace, tempo and overall understanding of the Ring is "better" or "more suitable" than Solti, Karajan and the rest.  But sound in comparison to Solti et. al do not make the RAI cycle the ideal choice for a beginner- Solti remains my favorite overall.  (Allow me to add a side point here:  I highly recommend the Furtwangler Recording of Tristan und Isolde with Kristen Flagstad on EMI Great Recordings  of the Century (Remastered)- a marvellous recording and arguably the ideal recording!!!)

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: grandma on July 26, 2007, 03:39:04 PM
Quote from: Wendell_E on July 26, 2007, 10:59:01 AM
The Ring Disc: An Interactive Guide to Wagners Ring Cycle

Amazon.com lists one new copy available for $75.00 from one of their sellers:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000001A3A/ref=dp_olp_2/102-5423591-3069720 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000001A3A/ref=dp_olp_2/102-5423591-3069720)

I don't have it.  My first Ring recording was Furtwängler's RAI cycle on LPs, which came with a single-LP intro to the cycle identifying the motifs and playing excerpts from the recording.  I probably listened to it once, but mostly used Ernest Newman's book on the Wagner operas, which (for the post-Rienzi operas), is a great intro to the works, with info on the sources and compostion each work, followed by a synopsis with musical examples of the leitmotifs:

http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Operas-Ernest-Newman/dp/0691027161/ref=sr_1_1/102-5423591-3069720?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185476047&sr=1-1

Thanks, Wendell

That was the disc I was trying to remember.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on July 26, 2007, 03:40:38 PM
Quote from: grandma on July 26, 2007, 03:39:04 PM
Thanks, Wendell

That was the disc I was trying to remember.

I've had that disc on my Wish List for some time. Maybe I should... ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: grandma on July 26, 2007, 03:57:03 PM
Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on July 26, 2007, 03:40:38 PM
I've had that disc on my Wish List for some time. Maybe I should... ;)

If you cannot read music or play it, I would definitely get it.  Sheet music does me no good because I cannot read it; I must hear it.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: grandma on July 26, 2007, 04:15:29 PM
I agree that Solti is the best recording for beginners.  Later they can choose other versions.

I think the recommended Keilberth Ring is the 1955 version.

I agree with Marvin that the Furtwangler Tristan und Isolde is my favorite version.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on July 26, 2007, 04:37:06 PM
Quote from: grandma on July 26, 2007, 04:15:29 PM
I agree that Solti is the best recording for beginners.  Later they can choose other versions.

I think the recommended Keilberth Ring is the 1955 version.

I agree with Marvin that the Furtwangler Tristan und Isolde is my favorite version.

Really, Keilberth's entire Decca stereo output from the 1955 Festspiele (Der Ring des Nibelungen and Der fliegende Holländer) is worth the effort and expense required to acquire it.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Steve on July 26, 2007, 05:04:54 PM
I've just recently acquired the Böhm recordings of Der Ring des Nibelungen, and am enjoying them handsomely. They make for an interesting contrast with the more formulaic Solti disks.  :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: m_gigena on July 26, 2007, 07:16:27 PM
Quote from: grandma on July 26, 2007, 04:15:29 PM

I think the recommended Keilberth Ring is the 1955 version.

Do you think it is better than his 1952 and 1953 sets?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on July 26, 2007, 07:18:56 PM
This is the only set I have so far.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lGefabD1L._AA240_.jpg)

The price was incredibly good.

The performers all sound up to it so far [I'm only up to disc.5.].

I believe it was the first digital recording of the Ring.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: m_gigena on July 26, 2007, 07:26:12 PM
Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on July 26, 2007, 07:18:56 PM
This is the only set I have so far.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lGefabD1L._AA240_.jpg)

The price was incredibly good.

The performers all sound up to it so far [I'm only up to disc.5.].

I believe it was the first digital recording of the Ring.

Join OperaShare, you can download dozens of Rings there (including the Keilberths I mentioned, some live Solti... a lot, really)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: grandma on July 26, 2007, 08:12:10 PM
Quote from: Manuel on July 26, 2007, 07:16:27 PM
Do you think it is better than his 1952 and 1953 sets?

I have not heard his 1952 and 1953 sets but do have the 1955 and enjoy it.  I bought the 1955 because it was so highly praised.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on July 26, 2007, 09:07:37 PM
Quote from: Manuel on July 26, 2007, 07:16:27 PM
Do you think it is better than his 1952 and 1953 sets?

Without doubt. The sound on the 1955 set is such that it alone recommends the set. That, though, is too glib of a dismissal.

The 1952 set suffers from uneven casting in a big way, such as Bernd Aldenhoff and Max Lorenz as Siegfried. Lorenz was a goner in 1950 for Furtwängler. You do get Hermann Uhde as Wotan in the '52 Rheingold, so that is a benefit - though Hotter is more (infelicitous as it is) godlike. In 1953, Regina Resnik is not Gré Brouwenstijn, though she's competent-enough. Mödl is a fine Brünnhilde, though I marginally prefer Varnay. I'm sorry to keep carping on this, but Wagner needs good sound to work - otherwise it's just too much of a stretch. While the 1952/3 sets have decent mono, especially in the better transfers, you're going to have a hard time convincing me that the Decca stereo isn't darned good for 1955, and would be pretty good for some time after that.

Still, it does come down to preference. If there's a casting choice in the earlier sets that does it for you, then go for it. Uhde as the 1952 Rheingold Wotan would be pretty close to a deal-maker for me.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on July 27, 2007, 02:28:16 PM
(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WP0TM96NL._AA240_.jpg)

Watched Die Walkure Act.2. last night.

I'm enjoying each act more and more as I go along.

I think Sarge said that he considered Scene.1. from Act.2. to represent the 'heart' of the entire cycle.

I also like Marvins description of the Ring as 'a psychological thriller with a symphonic soundtrack'.

Its epic stuff indeed.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: david johnson on July 28, 2007, 02:10:51 AM
wagner has never been a favorite of mine, but i've always enjoyed the music.  i just tend to listen to other stuff first.
love the 'dutchman' w/franz konwitschny/berlin staatskapelle!

dj
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 28, 2007, 04:56:08 AM
I just want to greet my fellow Wagnerians.

My favourites: all of the mature dramas (Ring, Tristan, Meistersinger, Parsifal). But the first three 'romantic operas' are not to be sneezed at.

Absolute high points for me are: Third Act of 'Die Walküre', Second Act of 'Tristan' , and the Third Act of 'Parsifal'.

Wotan's scene with Brünnhilde is the single most moving thing Wagner ever wrote, I think; the love music from 'Tristan' is the most bewitching and ecstatic; and the final act from Parsifal - in its sense of fulfilment, tranquility, reaching of wholeness - ranks among the greatest achievements of the human mind, on a par with, for instance, Shakespeare (and I'm thinking especially of the close of 'A Winter's Tale', which has the same mystery, elevation, solemnity and mysticism).

As far as recordings go - I always liked Solti's Ring, but Karajan is, to me, unbeaten in 'Das Rheingold'; the Böhm and Furtwängler 'Tristan' are superb; Karajan is very good in 'Meistersinger'; as far as 'Parsifal' is concerned, I don't have a clear favourite, yet.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on July 28, 2007, 05:49:00 AM
Am I being repetitive by advocating listening to, or watching, performances of Wagner conducted by very much alive and active maestros?

A quick survey of my DVD collection lists:

Franz Melser-Möst Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
Armin Jordan Tristan und Isolde
Kent Nagano Parsifal
Claudio Abbado Lohengrin
Hartmut Haenchen Der Ring des Nibelungen
Kent Pappano Der Ring des Nibellungen

The old and long dead conductors deserve their glory and laurels, now how about giving your time and attention to new and very exciting, talentend musicians!  ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wendell_E on July 28, 2007, 06:47:29 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on July 28, 2007, 05:49:00 AM
The old and long dead conductors deserve their glory and laurels, now how about giving your time and attention to new and very exciting, talentend musicians!  ;)

Well, as I type this I'm listening to the live broadcast from Bayreuth of Die Walküre, conducted by Thielemann. 

Quote from: uffeviking on July 28, 2007, 05:49:00 AM

Kent Pappano Der Ring des Nibellungen
???  ;D

I do have the Lohengrin and Parsifal DVDs you mention, another Parsifal (Armin Jordan conducting and acting the role of Amfortas in Syberberg's film), and the Met Ring and Tristan, conducted by Levine.  Oh, and the Bayreuth Fliegende Holländer, conducted by Woldemar Nelsson.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: m_gigena on July 28, 2007, 07:57:52 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on July 28, 2007, 05:49:00 AM
Kent Pappano Der Ring des Nibellungen

Is that Kent Nagano and Antonio Pappano's unknown son? (provided they could somehow manage to have descendents).  ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on July 28, 2007, 08:02:27 AM
Quote from: Wendell_E on July 28, 2007, 06:47:29 AM
Well, as I type this I'm listening to the live broadcast from Bayreuth of Die Walküre, conducted by Thielemann. 
???  ;D


Pray tell, my friend, where is that broadcast? I tried BBC3 and of course they have The Proms. My local classical station, KING FM does not broadcast Bayreuth! Forget about the local NWPR, they insist on giving precedence to the old man on Lake Woebegone!

Wendell, please rescue me! Thank you!  :-*
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wendell_E on July 28, 2007, 08:13:13 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on July 28, 2007, 08:02:27 AM
Pray tell, my friend, where is that broadcast? I tried BBC3 and of course they have The Proms. My local classical station, KING FM does not broadcast Bayreuth! Forget about the local NWPR, they insist on giving precedence to the old man on Lake Woebegone!

Wendell, please rescue me! Thank you!  :-*

They're playing it on several stations.  I'm listening on Bartók Radio (Hungary), but switched to Bayern 4 Klassik for the intermission, since my German's a lot better than my Hungarian.

Here's a page with a schedule of upcoming Bayreuth broadcasts and re-broadcasts, with cast lists and links for listening:

http://www.operacast.com/bayreuth07.htm (http://www.operacast.com/bayreuth07.htm).

The Fricka-Wotan scene's just beginning.

Our public radio station here in Mobile, WHIL-FM, dropped opera entirely almost a year ago.  I'm really grateful to Al Gore for inventing the Internet!   ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on July 28, 2007, 08:18:41 AM
My Saviour!  :-*  :-*  :-*

I forgot all about Bartok, even though I bookmarked it long ago! But I didn't have the Bavarians. Shall remedy it!  ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on July 28, 2007, 11:55:55 AM
The new Trinity at Bayreuth: Thielemann - Watson - Dohmen.  ::)

Incredibly beautiful, spine-tingling and whatever praising words in the dictionary. The incredible power and beauty of Dohman's last words: Wer meines Speeres Spitze fürchtet, durchschreite das Feuer nie! left me almost breathless and so moved me tears started rolling down my cheeks.

There have been a number of Bayreuth Rings I have listened to, - and the last few forgettable!  :-[ but this one is a winner again. Needed one! - Wendell_E, have you recovered? Any thoughts you want to share? -
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on July 28, 2007, 12:24:28 PM
I tuned in to Das Rheingold yesterday, though I overslept for Die Walküre, and I thought it not bad. Thielemann did a pretty good job, though - as was pointed out to me - he took a big, unmarked rallentando for the "new idea" motif, where Wagner writes, "Wie von einem grossen Gedanken ergriffen, sehr entschlossen." Looking at the score, Wagner sets Mäßig bewegt as the tempo from the "Rainbow bridge" on down the line - i.e., to the conclusion of the music-drama. In fact, for the "new idea" bit, Wagner wrote, "sehr energisch," while - at the same time - he goes from 3/4 to C. In other words, I don't think Wagner wanted things slowed down much - if at all - for this moment. We are in Mäßig bewegt, or - more or less - Allegro moderato, and Thielemann downshifts in such a way that mucks with Wagner's clear and literal intent. In other words, Thielemann is slowing things down in a big way, where Wagner was being careful not to let things get so slow.

I'm not too wrapped around the axle about it, though, as such an unmarked rallentando is the sort of thing Hans Knappertsbusch would have done - though probably in a bit more of an intelligent way. Thielemann is making good progress.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on July 28, 2007, 01:22:25 PM
PSmith08 You are aware of the rebroadcasts of all the operas, so you can catch the ones you missed because of oversleeping!  ::)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 28, 2007, 02:15:33 PM
Quote from: PSmith08 on July 26, 2007, 04:37:06 PM
Really, Keilberth's entire Decca stereo output from the 1955 Festspiele (Der Ring des Nibelungen and Der fliegende Holländer) is worth the effort and expense required to acquire it.
I had a chance to sample some of the Keiberth 1955 cycle today at Barnes and Nobles and one thing that annoys the hell out of me is how LOUD the audience was. I mean, come on, shut up already. All the hemming and sighing in addition to the coughs and sneezes. Karl Boehm's cycle is also live at Bayreuth and they had the good common sense to shut their big fat mouths for the most part. And the stereo is certainly nothing to write home about, certainly not as good as some of Reiner's mid to late 1950's RCA recordings. You get pretty much the same cast in the 1953 Krauss Ring which has been nicely remastered lately into excellent mono sound. So is it worth spending about $200 for the Keilberth right now? I think not. BUT I think if the price drops to under  $100 it would be worth a try.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wendell_E on July 28, 2007, 02:36:09 PM
Quote from: uffeviking on July 28, 2007, 11:55:55 AM
The new Trinity at Bayreuth: Thielemann - Watson - Dohmen.  ::)
There have been a number of Bayreuth Rings I have listened to, - and the last few forgettable!  :-[ but this one is a winner again. Needed one! - Wendell_E, have you recovered? Any thoughts you want to share? -

I'm mostly thinking "I wish I didn't work on Saturdays so I could have devoted my full attention to it".   :D

What I was able to hear was pretty wonderful, though.  I missed Wotan's farewell, though.  I left work just as he was singing his "Keiner wie sie"s, and by the time I got home, got the computer booted up and the radio station on-line, I was just in time to hear the final applause. 

Yeah, definitely better than what I've heard from Bayreuth Rings in recent seasons.  Hope it holds up for the 2nd half.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on July 28, 2007, 02:45:40 PM
Quote from: uffeviking on July 28, 2007, 01:22:25 PM
PSmith08 You are aware of the rebroadcasts of all the operas, so you can catch the ones you missed because of oversleeping!  ::)

I am aware of the rebroadcast schedule, but I'm also looking more forward to Adam Fischer's Parsifal than a Thielemann Ring.

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 28, 2007, 02:15:33 PM
I had a chance to sample some of the Keiberth 1955 cycle today at Barnes and Nobles and one thing that annoys the hell out of me is how LOUD the audience was. I mean, come on, shut up already. All the hemming and sighing in addition to the coughs and sneezes. Karl Boehm's cycle is also live at Bayreuth and they had the good common sense to shut their big fat mouths for the most part. And the stereo is certainly nothing to write home about, certainly not as good as some of Reiner's mid to late 1950's RCA recordings. You get pretty much the same cast in the 1953 Krauss Ring which has been nicely remastered lately into excellent mono sound. So is it worth spending about $200 for the Keilberth right now? I think not. BUT I think if the price drops to under  $100 it would be worth a try.

That's an opinion, to be sure, but if we're talking about mono sets live from Bayreuth - forget Clemens Krauss, his 1953 Ring is a one-off set. If I recall correctly, 1953 was the only time Krauss did the Ring at Bayreuth; even then, he shared the performances with Joseph Keilberth. Hans Knappertsbusch's 1956 cycle (on M&A or, with the Festspiele imprimatur, Orfeo) is the one to get. Knappertsbusch was about as perfect a Wagner conductor as you could hope to find - after Furtwängler. In fact, until the 1955 Ring was released, I probably would have pointed to Knappertsbusch's as "the 'Golden Age' Ring."

I'm just going to disagree, and say: Keilberth has far too much going for it to pass it over, at any reasonable price, in favor of anyone but Knappertsbusch. If the latter set weren't available, then Krauss would be a contender. With Hans Knappertsbusch, though, competing - almost anything is a non-starter.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: m_gigena on July 28, 2007, 06:40:38 PM
I just got this

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/413WMR4KWXL._AA240_.jpg)


It's amazing! I only listened to two or three tracks so far, and yet I've fallen in love. The overture to Der fliegende Holländer is playing right now...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on July 28, 2007, 06:49:52 PM
Quote from: Manuel on July 28, 2007, 06:40:38 PM
It's amazing! I only listened to two or three tracks so far, and yet I've fallen in love. The overture to Der fliegende Holländer is playing right now...

That Klemperer set is, on balance, one of the best overtures-and-preludes sets on the market. I'm generally a fan of Klemperer, but his EMI Wagner output - this and Holländer, as I recall - is just very good.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on July 29, 2007, 02:16:08 PM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WP0TM96NL._AA240_.jpg)

Die Walkure Act.3.

I'm loving this more and more with each Act :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 29, 2007, 02:40:09 PM
Quote from: PSmith08 on July 28, 2007, 02:45:40 PM

I'm just going to disagree, and say: Keilberth has far too much going for it to pass it over, at any reasonable price, in favor of anyone but Knappertsbusch. If the latter set weren't available, then Krauss would be a contender. With Hans Knappertsbusch, though, competing - almost anything is a non-starter.

I didn't say I was going to pass it over. Archivmusic already offers the complete set for about $170. You wait a couple of years and it is almost guaranteed to drop even more in price from aftermarket sellers. If you were to buy it in installments as they come out you would pay about $70-80 for each of the last three parts and abouth$40-50 for Rheingold. It pays to be patient.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on July 30, 2007, 01:29:58 PM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WP0TM96NL._AA240_.jpg)

Last night it was Siegfried Act.1.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: m_gigena on July 30, 2007, 05:31:26 PM
SW, you may want to take a look at this http://allenbdunningmd.com/RingThemes.htm
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on July 30, 2007, 05:35:03 PM
Quote from: Manuel on July 30, 2007, 05:31:26 PM
SW, you may want to take a look at this http://allenbdunningmd.com/RingThemes.htm

Thanks for the link. I had a quick look and it looks very detailed. I will endeavour to spend some time with it later :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on July 31, 2007, 12:34:11 AM
Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on July 30, 2007, 01:29:58 PM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WP0TM96NL._AA240_.jpg)

Last night it was Siegfried Act.1.


  Aahh....now this is the reason why I love Wagner so much.  Seigfried is easily my favorite of the 4 operas of the Ring Cycle.  Look out for the 3 question exchange between Mime and Wotan (disguised as the Wanderer) and of course the Sword (Notung) Forging Scene.  These two scenes I keep playing over and over and over again......  powerfull music indeed!!!


  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 31, 2007, 03:20:11 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on July 31, 2007, 12:34:11 AM

  Aahh....now this is the reason why I love Wagner so much.  Seigfried is easily my favorite of the 4 operas of the Ring Cycle.  Look out for the 3 question exchange between Mime and Wotan (disguised as the Wanderer) and of course the Sword (Notung) Forging Scene.  These two scenes I keep playing over and over and over again......  powerfull music indeed!!!


  marvin

You like that? Personally I think that is one of Wagner's least inspired creations. It is just not musicially very interesting and quite repeititive. It is already a very long Act and the forging makes it just about interminable. That, Amfortas miserables solo in Act III of Parsifal, and the Wotan/Bruenhilde exchange in Act II of Die Walkuere are some of my least favorite Wagner moments. I can't even listen to those anymore.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on July 31, 2007, 03:35:37 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 31, 2007, 03:20:11 AM
You like that? Personally I think that is one of Wagner's least inspired creations. It is just not musicially very interesting and quite repeititive. It is already a very long Act and the forging makes it just about interminable. That, Amfortas miserables solo in Act III of Parsifal, and the Wotan/Bruenhilde exchange in Act II of Die Walkuere are some of my least favorite Wagner moments. I can't even listen to those anymore.

  Oh dear...the sword forging scene has some really remarkable music PW.  Hmmm....well to each his own.  I am curious though PW what are your favorite scenes of the Ring? (Don't worry I love all of the Ring so I will not crticize your taste  ;) ...but I am curious what do you like?)

  marvin
  PS: By the way I agree that the Amfortas solo in Act III is not among my favorite Wagner moments.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 31, 2007, 03:53:33 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on July 31, 2007, 03:35:37 AM
  Oh dear...the sword forging scene has some really remarkable music PW.  Hmmm....well to each his own.  I am curious though PW what are your favorite scenes of the Ring? (Don't worry I love all of the Ring so I will not crticize your taste  ;) ...but I am curious what do you like?)

I like Rheingold, all of it, just great drama, fast and furious. I LOVE Act I of Die Walkuere, there is nothing remotely like it in all of opera, especially from Du bist der Lenz on. Of course the final 20 minute of so of Walkuere is truly remarkable also. Siegried I am not too high on, just too many dead spots. The entire first Act is relatively lackluster, not Wagner at his most inspired. It has a tired feel to it. Act III is truly amazing though. The entire Gotterdammerung is quite good although I can't stand the Norn scene or the beginning of Act I where Gunther, Hagen and Gutrune chat away endlessly.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on July 31, 2007, 07:16:59 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 31, 2007, 03:53:33 AM
I like Rheingold, all of it, just great drama, fast and furious. I LOVE Act I of Die Walkuere, there is nothing remotely like it in all of opera, especially from Du bist der Lenz on. Of course the final 20 minute of so of Walkuere is truly remarkable also. Siegried I am not too high on, just too many dead spots. The entire first Act is relatively lackluster, not Wagner at his most inspired. It has a tired feel to it. Act III is truly amazing though. The entire Gotterdammerung is quite good although I can't stand the Norn scene or the beginning of Act I where Gunther, Hagen and Gutrune chat away endlessly.

  LOL...the three Norns do sound like endless chatter but I find rather interesting how they read about the past present and future as they are weaving the rope of destiny.  Rheingold is good throughout and consistent.  I think Die Walkure is also consistently good.  Gotterdammerung has some areas that are a bit drawn out, my least favorite scene is in ACT 1 the hall of the Gibichungs, as Hagen tries to persuade cunningly Gunther and Gutrune to take Brunnhilde and Siegfried as spouses respectively. I am also left wondering whatever happens to Alberich at the very end of the Ring Cycle, Wagner never really addresses his fate??

  marvin 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 31, 2007, 07:28:03 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on July 31, 2007, 07:16:59 AM
  LOL...the three Norns do sound like endless chatter but I find rather interesting how they read about the past present and future as they are weaving the rope of destiny.  Rheingold is good throughout and consistent.  I think Die Walkure is also consistently good.  Gotterdammerung has some areas that are a bit drawn out, my least favorite scene is in ACT 1 the hall of the Gibichungs, as Hagen tries to persuade cunningly Gunther and Gutrune to take Brunnhilde and Siegfried as spouses respectively. I am also left wondering whatever happens to Alberich at the very end of the Ring Cycle, Wagner never really addresses his fate??

  marvin 

I suppose Alberich got washed away also. But he is a pretty damn good swimmer as shown in Rheingold so he is probably alive and well. Act I in the hall of Gibichung is actually not THAT long, probably 15 minutes or so before Siegfriend arrives but somehow it seems to last an hour. The Norn scene is totally useless. Is the opera not LONG enough without that scene?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on July 31, 2007, 07:55:42 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on July 31, 2007, 07:16:59 AMI am also left wondering whatever happens to Alberich at the very end of the Ring Cycle, Wagner never really addresses his fate??

  marvin 

Various directors handle it differently in the theater. Harry Kupfer solved it very simply at Bayreuth: nothing happened to him. If you haven't seen that production, I won't spoil the specifics for you.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on July 31, 2007, 10:37:17 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 31, 2007, 07:28:03 AM
The Norn scene is totally useless. Is the opera not LONG enough without that scene?

Have to disagree with you there, sorry! Nothing, not one word, not one note is useless in any of the late Wagner works. The scene with Norns tells you all about what happened to Wotan before Alberich takes a swim in Das Rheingold. Try an attentive listening to the words, and if you can't understand the lady's enunciation, maybe you find the libretto. The first Norn too asks the question you asked: "...weisst du was aus ihm ward? . . . referring to Alberich's fate. No, she doesn't have the answer either because just then the rope loses it's tension and gets cut.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 31, 2007, 10:52:35 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on July 31, 2007, 10:37:17 AM
Have to disagree with you there, sorry! Nothing, not one word, not one note is useless in any of the late Wagner works. The scene with Norns tells you all about what happened to Wotan before Alberich takes a swim in Das Rheingold. Try an attentive listening to the words, and if you can't understand the lady's enunciation, maybe you find the libretto. The first Norn too asks the question you asked: "...weisst du was aus ihm ward? . . . referring to Alberich's fate. No, she doesn't have the answer either because just then the rope loses it's tension and gets cut.

Of course she doesn't have the answer, they are just three blabbering motormouths.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on July 31, 2007, 11:04:48 AM
May I be to bold and recommend you get yourself this book:

http://www.powells.com/biblio/17-9780714836508-0

It would be of tremendous help for you to better understand Der Ring des Nibelungen.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on July 31, 2007, 12:16:08 PM
Quote from: uffeviking on July 31, 2007, 10:37:17 AM
Have to disagree with you there, sorry! Nothing, not one word, not one note is useless in any of the late Wagner works. The scene with Norns tells you all about what happened to Wotan before Alberich takes a swim in Das Rheingold. Try an attentive listening to the words, and if you can't understand the lady's enunciation, maybe you find the libretto. The first Norn too asks the question you asked: "...weisst du was aus ihm ward? . . . referring to Alberich's fate. No, she doesn't have the answer either because just then the rope loses it's tension and gets cut.

One-hundred-and-ten percent correct. Wagner is establishing an inexorability to the conclusion: The string of fate has broken, it is indeed the end of the Gods. If you read the text, you will see that Wotan has pretty much fouled every nest, including causing the end of Fate. He destroys der Welt-Esche and prepares the destruction of Walhall and the Gods. Not only do the Norns explain everything that came before, they lay the groundwork for everything that comes after.

The prelude is pretty much necessary for understanding that which comes after. Waltraute's monologue doesn't make as much sense without it, and the finale certainly doesn't work so well - why would Brünnhilde send Loge to Walhall? - without it. Lis was right: there is not a single throwaway note, word, or phrase in mature Wagner.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Anne on July 31, 2007, 01:01:09 PM
Isn't it at Siegfried Act 3 that Wagner, after taking time to write Die Meistersinger and Tristan und Isolde, resumes his writing of the Ring after a long absence?

I think some people agree that act 3 is better.  Maybe Wagner knew he needed a break and took it.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on July 31, 2007, 01:37:07 PM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WP0TM96NL._AA240_.jpg)

Watched Siegfried Act.2. last night.

Enjoying reading the various comments here.

I'll offer more thoughts once I've seen the whole thing. Bearing in mind that this is my first Ring experience and that I'm just over half way through. I'm liking all of it but at this stage Die Walkure Act.3. stands out. I liked Siegfried Act.2. more than Act.1. although I thought the Dragon/Fafner and the bickering between Alberich and Mime a little too cute.

Overall though very minor criticisms as I'm loving the whole thing; its mind-blowing :o
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Anne on July 31, 2007, 01:47:04 PM
SW,

I am so glad that you are enjoying the Ring.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on August 01, 2007, 06:13:08 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 31, 2007, 03:53:33 AM
II can't stand the Norn scene or the beginning of Act I where Gunther, Hagen and Gutrune chat away endlessly.

Sir, you are in dire need of reading more what Der Ring des Nibelungen is all about! Try this one:

http://www.allaboutopera.com/opera_resources.php?opera_ndx=336

Good Luck!  8)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on August 01, 2007, 07:44:57 AM
Quote from: PSmith08 on July 31, 2007, 12:16:08 PM
One-hundred-and-ten percent correct. Wagner is establishing an inexorability to the conclusion: The string of fate has broken, it is indeed the end of the Gods. If you read the text, you will see that Wotan has pretty much fouled every nest, including causing the end of Fate. He destroys der Welt-Esche and prepares the destruction of Walhall and the Gods. Not only do the Norns explain everything that came before, they lay the groundwork for everything that comes after.

The prelude is pretty much necessary for understanding that which comes after. Waltraute's monologue doesn't make as much sense without it, and the finale certainly doesn't work so well - why would Brünnhilde send Loge to Walhall? - without it. Lis was right: there is not a single throwaway note, word, or phrase in mature Wagner.

You are trying to make sense of the libretto and plot of the Ring? It is one complete mess if there ever was one. For awhile I have been trying to put a timeline for things and I have a problem with the following: How long did Siegfried stay on the Rock and how long did Bruennhilde stay on the Rock after Siegfriend left until Siegfried comes back as Gunther.

It appears to me that Siegfried only stayed with Bruennhilde for a night (listening to the duet anyway) and spilled a mea culpa as to why he didn't satisfy her sexually (reading between the lines). You would think a horny youth like him would stay awhile longer for a hottie like a Valkyrie. So the fact that he is LEAVING right away makes no sense.

Now how long does he go wandering on the Rhine? Obviously long enough for "stories" about him (and Bruennhilde in general) to reach the ears of the Gibichung trio. How long would that be, a few months at least right? Considering in those days news travels at the pace of a horse's gait at the most. Now during this time Bruennhilde presumably STAYS in her cave and DOES NOTHING !!! What does she eat? She is mortal right? She has to eat right? What does she do all day. It is a ROCK surrounded by fire, there is nobody and nothing there ! Doesn't she get bored ??? This also makes no sense. From the opera you can deduce that a few months is probably a low estimate. Before Siegfried gets stabbed in tbe back by Hagen he wanted to sing about his "youthful days". Now to me that must be at least 3-5 years ago. Now he couldn't possibly have stayed at the Gibichung Hall after bringing Bruennhilde over for THAT long (they would have found a way to killed him by then) so that must imply he went wandering on the Rhine for a few years at least. All this while Bruennhilde is vegetating on a ROCK. C'mon, let's get real here.

Another thing, the chatty Norns say that Wotan, after having his cane shattered by Siegfried, gathered all the gods in Valhalla, piled wood around the house and wait for his end. This lasts from the end of Siegfried to the end of Gotterdammerung which by my estimate has to be at least a few months. So he sat around for months, if not years ! Does that make any sense?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on August 01, 2007, 08:04:48 AM
What a hopeless case you are; I feel sorry for you having such a closed mind and insisting you know better than Richard Wagner. Do me a personal favour: Restrain yourself from making further derogatory remarks about this masterpiece because you might scare away other people seriously seeking for intelligent information about Der Ring des Nibelungen.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on August 01, 2007, 08:11:17 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on August 01, 2007, 08:04:48 AM
What a hopeless case you are; I feel sorry for you having such a closed mind and insisting you know better than Richard Wagner. Do me a personal favour: Restrain yourself from making further derogatory remarks about this masterpiece because you might scare away other people seriously seeking for intelligent information about Der Ring des Nibelungen.





I wonder if Perfect Wagnerite had an inner demon that he attempted to expel with that post. If so, I hope now his obvius love-hate relationship with The Ring... is back at peace.

I guess I mean that I think PerfectWagnerite is in awe of The Ring ... just as much as anyone here. Maybe the music more...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Harry on August 01, 2007, 08:22:20 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on August 01, 2007, 08:04:48 AM
What a hopeless case you are; I feel sorry for you having such a closed mind and insisting you know better than Richard Wagner. Do me a personal favour: Restrain yourself from making further derogatory remarks about this masterpiece because you might scare away other people seriously seeking for intelligent information about Der Ring des Nibelungen.

Well he did scare me away, I can tell you! ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on August 01, 2007, 08:24:15 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on August 01, 2007, 08:04:48 AM
What a hopeless case you are; I feel sorry for you having such a closed mind and insisting you know better than Richard Wagner. Do me a personal favour: Restrain yourself from making further derogatory remarks about this masterpiece because you might scare away other people seriously seeking for intelligent information about Der Ring des Nibelungen.

Derogatory remarks ? I LOVE the Ring, I have more recordings of it than I have fingers. There are parts of it that I am convinced Wagner was under divine guidance when he wrote it. All that doesn't answer the question: what the heck did Bruennhilde do for months or years alone on a rock? Do I have to worship each and every note that he wrote and ignore some of the obvious inconsistences and nonsensible plots?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: m_gigena on August 01, 2007, 08:48:00 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on August 01, 2007, 07:44:57 AM
You are trying to make sense of the libretto and plot of the Ring? It is one complete mess if there ever was one. For awhile I have been trying to put a timeline for things and I have a problem with the following: How long did Siegfried stay on the Rock and how long did Bruennhilde stay on the Rock after Siegfriend left until Siegfried comes back as Gunther.

It appears to me that Siegfried only stayed with Bruennhilde for a night (listening to the duet anyway) and spilled a mea culpa as to why he didn't satisfy her sexually (reading between the lines). You would think a horny youth like him would stay awhile longer for a hottie like a Valkyrie. So the fact that he is LEAVING right away makes no sense.

Now how long does he go wandering on the Rhine? Obviously long enough for "stories" about him (and Bruennhilde in general) to reach the ears of the Gibichung trio. How long would that be, a few months at least right? Considering in those days news travels at the pace of a horse's gait at the most. Now during this time Bruennhilde presumably STAYS in her cave and DOES NOTHING !!! What does she eat? She is mortal right? She has to eat right? What does she do all day. It is a ROCK surrounded by fire, there is nobody and nothing there ! Doesn't she get bored ??? This also makes no sense. From the opera you can deduce that a few months is probably a low estimate. Before Siegfried gets stabbed in tbe back by Hagen he wanted to sing about his "youthful days". Now to me that must be at least 3-5 years ago. Now he couldn't possibly have stayed at the Gibichung Hall after bringing Bruennhilde over for THAT long (they would have found a way to killed him by then) so that must imply he went wandering on the Rhine for a few years at least. All this while Bruennhilde is vegetating on a ROCK. C'mon, let's get real here.

Another thing, the chatty Norns say that Wotan, after having his cane shattered by Siegfried, gathered all the gods in Valhalla, piled wood around the house and wait for his end. This lasts from the end of Siegfried to the end of Gotterdammerung which by my estimate has to be at least a few months. So he sat around for months, if not years ! Does that make any sense?

You don't make any sense. Why don't you sell your Wagner recordings at Ebay and use the income to purchase the awful movie "The Ring of the Nibelung"? I think it's more at your level. You may even like it.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on August 01, 2007, 11:23:37 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on August 01, 2007, 07:44:57 AM
You are trying to make sense of the libretto and plot of the Ring? It is one complete mess if there ever was one. For awhile I have been trying to put a timeline for things and I have a problem with the following: How long did Siegfried stay on the Rock and how long did Bruennhilde stay on the Rock after Siegfriend left until Siegfried comes back as Gunther.

It appears to me that Siegfried only stayed with Bruennhilde for a night (listening to the duet anyway) and spilled a mea culpa as to why he didn't satisfy her sexually (reading between the lines). You would think a horny youth like him would stay awhile longer for a hottie like a Valkyrie. So the fact that he is LEAVING right away makes no sense.

Now how long does he go wandering on the Rhine? Obviously long enough for "stories" about him (and Bruennhilde in general) to reach the ears of the Gibichung trio. How long would that be, a few months at least right? Considering in those days news travels at the pace of a horse's gait at the most. Now during this time Bruennhilde presumably STAYS in her cave and DOES NOTHING !!! What does she eat? She is mortal right? She has to eat right? What does she do all day. It is a ROCK surrounded by fire, there is nobody and nothing there ! Doesn't she get bored ??? This also makes no sense. From the opera you can deduce that a few months is probably a low estimate. Before Siegfried gets stabbed in tbe back by Hagen he wanted to sing about his "youthful days". Now to me that must be at least 3-5 years ago. Now he couldn't possibly have stayed at the Gibichung Hall after bringing Bruennhilde over for THAT long (they would have found a way to killed him by then) so that must imply he went wandering on the Rhine for a few years at least. All this while Bruennhilde is vegetating on a ROCK. C'mon, let's get real here.

Another thing, the chatty Norns say that Wotan, after having his cane shattered by Siegfried, gathered all the gods in Valhalla, piled wood around the house and wait for his end. This lasts from the end of Siegfried to the end of Gotterdammerung which by my estimate has to be at least a few months. So he sat around for months, if not years ! Does that make any sense?

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on August 01, 2007, 08:24:15 AM
Derogatory remarks ? I LOVE the Ring, I have more recordings of it than I have fingers. There are parts of it that I am convinced Wagner was under divine guidance when he wrote it. All that doesn't answer the question: what the heck did Bruennhilde do for months or years alone on a rock? Do I have to worship each and every note that he wrote and ignore some of the obvious inconsistences and nonsensible plots?

Why does it matter? Really. Why? Would knowing what Brünnhilde did for the "months or years" you posit she spent alone on the rock help the story along? Would it make the drama better? Worse? I have a secret for you: Richard Wagner is the boss when you're watching or listening to Der Ring des Nibelungen. That man - one man - created a world in his mind, in a poem, in music, and - finally - in the theater. It's his world. If Richard Wagner did not think it necessary to give us a blow-by-blow account of the lives of the main characters, then it probably was and is not necessary. Such speculation and worrying has no place in his world. You might want such knowledge, but you're only a visitor. Wagner's dramatic instincts, especially in the mature works, are so finely-tuned (perfect, I daresay) that he knew what was best and necessary. He discarded the rest. Wagner's sense of drama was so perfect that his mistakes turned out to be great things. Siegfried is supposed to be the tragic hero of Der Ring, but Wotan enters that role and marches into not only Walhall but the pantheon of great tragic heroes (Oedipus, Prometheus, Orestes, et al.) Siegfried becomes a bit of a simpleminded clod, and Wotan becomes a perfect tragic hero. Some mistake!

I have another secret: Wagner is telling a story. One story. The biggest story ever conceived. He set it to some of the most beautiful, dramatic, and perfect music yet written. What Brünnhilde ate in the cave is not part of that story. You are looking at grains of sand, as Wagner is saying, "Look up here at a - no, the - cosmic drama." This attitude fulfills, in a perverse way, the conclusion to Harry Kupfer's Bayreuth Götterdämmerung - everyone (except for a couple of children and Alberich) is watching TV as the end of the gods happens. No-one notices, as they're all too busy with their own thing. I say this sincerely: turn off the TV, stop trying to outguess the last universal creative genius of West (there have, do not worry, been specific creative genii since Wagner - just no one universal genius), and take the story for what it's worth.

You ask if you have to worship each and every note, despite his inconsistencies. Once you see that those "inconsistencies" are yours, not his, you will want to worship each and every note he wrote - insofar as your religious tradition will allow.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on August 01, 2007, 11:46:22 AM
Quote from: Manuel on August 01, 2007, 08:48:00 AM
You don't make any sense. Why don't you sell your Wagner recordings at Ebay and use the income to purchase the awful movie "The Ring of the Nibelung"? I think it's more at your level. You may even like it.



Ebay, no way. When I die all my CDs will go to the local library so many more people can enjoy them.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on August 01, 2007, 01:34:13 PM
Quote from: Harry on August 01, 2007, 08:22:20 AM
Well he did scare me away, I can tell you! ;D ;D ;D

Please, Sir, don't let him do that! PerfectWagnerite is posting his inane, immature and immaterial questions to cover up his total lack of understanding of even one solitary moment of this masterpiece under discussion.  :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on August 01, 2007, 01:40:28 PM
Last night watched:

(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WP0TM96NL._AA240_.jpg)

Siegfried Act.3.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: m_gigena on August 01, 2007, 02:01:40 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on August 01, 2007, 11:46:22 AM
Ebay, no way. When I die all my CDs will go to the local library so many more people can enjoy them.

Then, as you don't seem to be able to reach the Ring's plot you can either:
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on August 01, 2007, 02:06:51 PM
Quote from: Anne on July 31, 2007, 01:47:04 PM
SW,

I am so glad that you are enjoying the Ring.

Yes Anne :)

It really is an amazing work of art and I'm already looking forward to viewing it from the begining again.

The good news thats theres 6 more Wagner operas waiting for me to discover them :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on August 01, 2007, 02:24:08 PM
Quote from: Manuel on August 01, 2007, 02:01:40 PM
Then, as you don't seem to be able to reach the Ring's plot you can either:

  • Die right now,
  • Give your recordings away while you are still alive to someone who will appreciate them better.

Eh. He could always keep them, let Wagner do his thing, and appreciate Der Ring des Nibelungen on Wagner's own terms.

I like that solution the best.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: m_gigena on August 01, 2007, 04:09:35 PM
Quote from: PSmith08 on August 01, 2007, 02:24:08 PM
Eh. He could always keep them, let Wagner do his thing, and appreciate Der Ring des Nibelungen on Wagner's own terms.

I like that solution the best.

I think I should have added one of those funny emoticons to make my post appear humorous.


Here it goes...




:)





Done.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on August 02, 2007, 05:55:18 AM
Quote from: PSmith08 on August 01, 2007, 11:23:37 AM
Why does it matter? Really. Why? Would knowing what Brünnhilde did for the "months or years" you posit she spent alone on the rock help the story along? Would it make the drama better? Worse? I have a secret for you: Richard Wagner is the boss when you're watching or listening to Der Ring des Nibelungen. That man - one man - created a world in his mind, in a poem, in music, and - finally - in the theater. It's his world. If Richard Wagner did not think it necessary to give us a blow-by-blow account of the lives of the main characters, then it probably was and is not necessary. Such speculation and worrying has no place in his world. You might want such knowledge, but you're only a visitor. Wagner's dramatic instincts, especially in the mature works, are so finely-tuned (perfect, I daresay) that he knew what was best and necessary. He discarded the rest. Wagner's sense of drama was so perfect that his mistakes turned out to be great things. Siegfried is supposed to be the tragic hero of Der Ring, but Wotan enters that role and marches into not only Walhall but the pantheon of great tragic heroes (Oedipus, Prometheus, Orestes, et al.) Siegfried becomes a bit of a simpleminded clod, and Wotan becomes a perfect tragic hero. Some mistake!

I have another secret: Wagner is telling a story. One story. The biggest story ever conceived. He set it to some of the most beautiful, dramatic, and perfect music yet written. What Brünnhilde ate in the cave is not part of that story. You are looking at grains of sand, as Wagner is saying, "Look up here at a - no, the - cosmic drama." This attitude fulfills, in a perverse way, the conclusion to Harry Kupfer's Bayreuth Götterdämmerung - everyone (except for a couple of children and Alberich) is watching TV as the end of the gods happens. No-one notices, as they're all too busy with their own thing. I say this sincerely: turn off the TV, stop trying to outguess the last universal creative genius of West (there have, do not worry, been specific creative genii since Wagner - just no one universal genius), and take the story for what it's worth.

You ask if you have to worship each and every note, despite his inconsistencies. Once you see that those "inconsistencies" are yours, not his, you will want to worship each and every note he wrote - insofar as your religious tradition will allow.

  PerfectWagnerite I have to agree with PSmith08 on this one.  It is irrelevant how long Brunhilde spent on that rock.  This is a work of fiction, time has no meaning.  I doubt if it was Wagner intention for his operas to be micro-analyzed this way.  I usually try to avoid over-analyzing the plot of the Ring (although I was curious as to Alberich's fate and Lis was kind enough to point me in the right direction)- try to take the plot of the Ring with a grain of salt so to speak  ;), you will enjoy it a lot more!!!

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on August 02, 2007, 01:33:00 PM
(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WP0TM96NL._AA240_.jpg)

Watched Twilight of the Gods Prelude & Act.1. [1st half] last night.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bhodges on August 02, 2007, 01:40:50 PM
Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on August 02, 2007, 01:33:00 PM
(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WP0TM96NL._AA240_.jpg)

Watched Twilight of the Gods Prelude & Act.1. [1st half] last night.

You're in the home stretch!  Hope you have something suitable to celebrate at the end.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on August 02, 2007, 01:51:14 PM
Quote from: bhodges on August 02, 2007, 01:40:50 PM
You're in the home stretch!  Hope you have something suitable to celebrate at the end.

--Bruce

Yes, it will feel like an achievement :)

I'm enjoying it more and more as I go along.

I'm looking forward to discovering his other music dramas.

Watching them on dvd is definately the way to experience them; opera is intended as a visual medium as much as an audio one.

I'm a true believer now ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bhodges on August 02, 2007, 01:56:40 PM
Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on August 02, 2007, 01:51:14 PM
Watching them on dvd is definately the way to experience them; opera is intended as a visual medium as much as an audio one.

Absolutely!  This is why I get impatient with some opera productions, in which the singing has been given a disproportionate amount of attention, while other elements have been neglected.  (If I want to go to a concert - i.e., no visuals - then I'll go to one.)  But when the music, sets, costumes, lighting and direction all work together it's magic.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on August 02, 2007, 02:01:05 PM
Quote from: bhodges on August 02, 2007, 01:56:40 PM
Absolutely!  This is why I get impatient with some opera productions, in which the singing has been given a disproportionate amount of attention, while other elements have been neglected.  (If I want to go to a concert - i.e., no visuals - then I'll go to one.)  But when the music, sets, costumes, lighting and direction all work together it's magic.

--Bruce

Yes, magical is a good word to use. The sets, costumes and drama just add to the wonderful singing and music.

Its really quite a sublime experience 0:)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: m_gigena on August 02, 2007, 06:04:42 PM
Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on August 02, 2007, 01:51:14 PM
Yes, it will feel like an achievement :)

I'm enjoying it more and more as I go along.

I'm looking forward to discovering his other music dramas.

Watching them on dvd is definately the way to experience them; opera is intended as a visual medium as much as an audio one.

I'm a true believer now ;)

I compiled the information from the whole website I posted a few days ago in a PDF file (I had it printed and now looks like a book; one of the problem of living in the third world is that real books about The Ring are not available here). @SW, if you are interested I can send you the file.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on August 02, 2007, 06:20:12 PM
One more Götterdämmerung! I spent this afternoon watching a DVD of the 1997 production at Bayreuth, conducted by James Levine. It's the one directed by Alfred Kirchner who, together with his costume designer - whose name unfortunately I have not been able yet to discover! - shocked me seeing the most unusual, truly fantastic - as in Fantasy! - costumes. So often I hear and read the word Eurotrash - an American invention, BTW. - but I immediately discarded this classification. The Ring is a play, an opera, ergo clothing all the actors in creative and unusual costumes fits perfectly. I rather have them wearing pure fertile mind creations than an ordinary business suit.

This short video gives you a glimpse of what I am talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM30aq3nWT8
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on August 03, 2007, 01:52:59 PM
(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WP0TM96NL._AA240_.jpg)

Watched Twilight of the Gods Act.1. 2nd half last night.

Its a powerful moment when 'Gunther' takes off the tarnhelm to reveal Siegfried.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on August 03, 2007, 02:38:16 PM
Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on August 03, 2007, 01:52:59 PM
(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WP0TM96NL._AA240_.jpg)

Watched Twilight of the Gods Act.1. 2nd half last night.

Its a powerful moment when 'Gunther' takes off the tarnhelm to reveal Siegfried.

  Wait 'till you get to the end of Twilight of the Gods (Gotterdammerung)  ;) !

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on August 04, 2007, 01:08:20 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on August 03, 2007, 02:38:16 PM
  Wait 'till you get to the end of Twilight of the Gods (Gotterdammerung)  ;) !

  marvin

Nearly there!

Watched Gotterdammerung Act.2. last night.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WP0TM96NL._AA240_.jpg)

Great scene with the Vassels chorus and the plotting for Siegfrieds Tod.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Chaszz on August 04, 2007, 10:16:08 PM
Whoa! I stopped watching this thread for a long time, because it was frozen at page 5 [at "You're welcome, Yasser"] for several months. But it is sure lively now...

A few comments for the people who are relatively new to Wagner:

Do not neglect Lohengrin and Tannhauser. Some devotees make a big deal about the difference between these 'operas' and the mature later 'music dramas' and important differences there may be. But I listen to Wagner primarily for the music and the music in these two is simply wonderful, scene after scene of inspired melody and variation. They both well repay attentive listening. 

Thielemann's conducting IMO puts him in the top rank of Wagner conductors of all time. We are lucky to live while such an important Wagner conductor is alive. A huge prize will be his Ring recording which I hope and expect the fading titans of the record industry will somehow find the wherewithal to record and release.  (As an aside, the masters of the record industry remind me of the gods of Valhalla awaiting their deaths.)

A terrific Wagner conductor to explore is Karl Muck, who worked at Bayreuth in the generation right after the composer's death. His limited recordings consist of some excellent tracks from 1927, with sound that is simply astounding for the time, now reissued on CDs. There is an Act III of Parsifal that is truly great. He seems to me to be very tuned into Wagner's intentions and mystique, perhaps because he was there near the beginning.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on August 04, 2007, 10:44:43 PM
Ah, Karl Muck. Really one of the great ones. In addition to Parsifal, there are some other recordings - all of which are astonishing for their fleet tempi. Of all my versions of, for example, the Siegfried-Idyll, Muck comes in the fastest at 17:34. Compare that to Celibidache's 23:47 or Glenn Gould's 24:32. Only Otto Klemperer (18:00) comes close to Muck. That's fast.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on August 05, 2007, 06:04:46 AM
Quote from: chaszz on August 04, 2007, 10:16:08 PM

Thielemann's conducting IMO puts him in the top rank of Wagner conductors of all time.


Have you had a chance to listen to the webcast of this year's Bayreuth Ring with Thielemann conducting? Mind blowing! I have listened to a lot of the Trauermarsch but his tops them all. Yes, is it's a tad longer but every note is chiseled clean and perfectly by the outstanding musicians at Bayreuth under his direction.

For a comparison I listened to Levine conducting it and it's mushy, fuzzy and maudlin.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Chaszz on August 05, 2007, 09:06:23 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on August 05, 2007, 06:04:46 AM
Have you had a chance to listen to the webcast of this year's Bayreuth Ring with Thielemann conducting? Mind blowing! I have listened to a lot of the Trauermarsch but his tops them all. Yes, is it's a tad longer but every note is chiseled clean and perfectly by the outstanding musicians at Bayreuth under his direction.

For a comparison I listened to Levine conducting it and it's mushy, fuzzy and maudlin.


I was unable to listen to this Ring, but another member has kindly offered to send me download links of recordings of it. I await them fervently.

I also hope he'll conduct Wagner sometime soon at the Met or elsewhere on the East Coast where I can attend and hear him in person. It's as if Muck, Furtwangler or one of the other immortal Wagner conductors were walking among us!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on August 05, 2007, 09:33:05 AM
Quote from: chaszz on August 04, 2007, 10:16:08 PM
Whoa! I stopped watching this thread for a long time, because it was frozen at page 5 [at "You're welcome, Yasser"] for several months. But it is sure lively now...

A few comments for the people who are relatively new to Wagner:

Do not neglect Lohengrin and Tannhauser. Some devotees make a big deal about the difference between these 'operas' and the mature later 'music dramas' and important differences there may be. But I listen to Wagner primarily for the music and the music in these two is simply wonderful, scene after scene of inspired melody and variation. They both well repay attentive listening. 


  Yes I totally agree that Lohengrin and Tannhauser are not to be neglected.  Although it is difficult to neglect Lohengrin..... well with the very popular "here comes the bride" melody from Elsa's marriage to Lohengrin.

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on August 05, 2007, 09:47:06 AM
Quote from: chaszz on August 05, 2007, 09:06:23 AM

I was unable to listen to this Ring,

And if the mail is late or you are having problems with your friend's URL's, those performances are being repeated. Scroll down a bit and you'll find it.

http://www.operacast.com/bayreuth07.htm

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on August 05, 2007, 02:02:25 PM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WP0TM96NL._AA240_.jpg)

Watched Gotterdammerung Act.3. last night.

Finished!

Well, the complete Ring cycle was an awesome experience. Epic, dramatic, exciting, moving...etc.

It was great for me to hear where various orchestral pieces that I've been listening to for years, like Entry of the Gods into Valhalla, Ride of the Valkyries, Forest Murmurs, Siegfried's Rhine Journey and the Funeral March, fitted into the whole drama. I loved the Mets staging of it; the sets and costumes were incredible.

I'm keen to re-watch it again ;)

But I'll explore some of Wagner's other music dramas first :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on August 05, 2007, 02:50:43 PM
Quote from: Solitary Wanderer link=topic=113.msg65066#msg65066  I loved the Mets staging of it; the sets and costumes were incredible.

/quote]

Unlike most other Eurotrash performances of this work, the Met had the budget to stage the work properly instead of using fake costumes that are frankly embarassing.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Anne on August 05, 2007, 04:04:35 PM
SW,

Glad you liked it.  I enjoy the way Wagner takes a long time to wind down the music.  I need every minute to come back to earth after that terrific journey.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on August 05, 2007, 04:10:09 PM
Quote from: Anne on August 05, 2007, 04:04:35 PM
SW,

Glad you liked it.  I enjoy the way Wagner takes a long time to wind down the music.  I need every minute to come back to earth after that terrific journey.

Yep, loved every minute of it. Wish I'd discovered it 20 years ago :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on August 05, 2007, 04:26:26 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on August 05, 2007, 02:50:43 PM


Unlike most other Eurotrash performances of this work, the Met had the budget to stage the work properly instead of using fake costumes that are frankly embarassing.

May I ask you if you have seen in it's entirety, not single photos or even uTube, the productions of Pierre Audi in Amsterdam; the 1976 Patrice Chéreau Bayreuth production; any Jürgen Flimm Ring; how about the Harry Kupfer production, the one from Bayreuth, or the revised one in Berlin?  ???
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on August 06, 2007, 06:16:15 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on August 05, 2007, 04:26:26 PM
May I ask you if you have seen in it's entirety, not single photos or even uTube, the productions of Pierre Audi in Amsterdam; the 1976 Patrice Chéreau Bayreuth production; any Jürgen Flimm Ring; how about the Harry Kupfer production, the one from Bayreuth, or the revised one in Berlin?  ???

I have seen the awful Boulez/Chereau (who hasn't). They made us watch that garbage when I took an opera class in college. I would not wish that on anybody. Yes I have seen 10-15 minutes clips at a time on Youtube of some of the others. I don't even know which production they are but they are equally awful. There is one when after Donner struck his hammer he falls flat on his back, and the Heda Hedo was sung like "Celeste Aida". There is another one where I actually watched in the store for a good 20 minutes because it happened to be on. The one where Bruennhilde woke up looking like she is a mental patient waking up in an asylum. I can't imaging watching any of these for 15 hrs.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on August 06, 2007, 06:30:20 AM
Thank you for your opinion, which turned out exactly as I expected it would.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Chaszz on August 06, 2007, 07:18:57 AM
Article on Wagner in the London Times. A good summation of some of the reasons for his importance and continuing popularity at a time when the classical music establishment in general is worried about becoming irrelevant. When some of the uninitiated read and digest it. it may help make it even harder to get tickets to the perfromances!

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article2181464.ece
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: David Zalman on August 06, 2007, 01:10:30 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on August 06, 2007, 06:16:15 AM
I have seen the awful Boulez/Chereau (who hasn't). They made us watch that garbage when I took an opera class in college. I would not wish that on anybody. Yes I have seen 10-15 minutes clips at a time on Youtube of some of the others. I don't even know which production they are but they are equally awful. There is one when after Donner struck his hammer he falls flat on his back, and the Heda Hedo was sung like "Celeste Aida". There is another one where I actually watched in the store for a good 20 minutes because it happened to be on. The one where Bruennhilde woke up looking like she is a mental patient waking up in an asylum. I can't imaging watching any of these for 15 hrs.


Apropos the above, this might be of some interest:

http://www.soundsandfury.com/soundsandfury/2007/08/oh-dear-wagner-.html
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on August 06, 2007, 01:47:07 PM
You are referring to the Mac Donal article  here (http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_urbanities-regietheater.html) I think which I read with great interest. Thanks for the link.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: David Zalman on August 06, 2007, 02:07:48 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on August 06, 2007, 01:47:07 PM
You are referring to the Mac Donal article  here (http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_urbanities-regietheater.html) I think which I read with great interest. Thanks for the link.

I was referring both to that article and to the one on staging Wagner's operas, both of which articles are linked in the post I linked above.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on August 06, 2007, 02:14:56 PM
Bear with me for a second. The link you gave points to a page with a two paragraph article on Wagner and an embedded link to the Mac Donald article. Am I missing something?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on August 06, 2007, 02:25:19 PM
I have the Solti classic "Ring...", the Hvk "Rheingold", and the Boulez DVDs, and even up against them I thought the Levine was just fine.

Like many others, I wasn't thrilled with Jerusalem and Behrenson the dvd,  but they pretty much got the job(s) done.

I don't know...the Solti is such a fantastic performance, it can easily overshadow the others, in my humble opinion.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on August 06, 2007, 02:28:53 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on August 06, 2007, 02:14:56 PM
Bear with me for a second. The link you gave points to a page with a two paragraph article on Wagner and an embedded link to the Mac Donald article. Am I missing something?

Yeah, toward the bottom there's a link to ACD's own thoughts about how to modernize the Ring.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on December 08, 2007, 02:13:20 PM

  No one has posted on this thread for at least 120 days  :o and I have no intention of starting a new Wagner appreciation thread so I am bumping this thread! So why now, well only to say that we have approached the end of the year, that's right folks 2007 is sure to end soon and 2008 is well on its way. Throughout the year of 2007 I have discovered so many new composers: Bruckner, Dvorak, Debussy to name a few and have expanded my collection of Bach, Mozart, Verdi, R. Strauss and BEETHOVEN. I am happy to report that WAGNER  0:) remains unsurpassed as my favorite composer. His music dramas thrill me in ways no other composer could and continues to reach an emotional level unlike anything else I have heard throughout this past year. 

The 4 operas of the Ring Cycle, Tristan und Isolde, Die Meistersinger and Parsifal form the backbone (the spine) of my music collection.  They also represent the standard to which I hold and judge all other works of art.  Sometimes I get the feeling that Wagner wrote with me (marvinbrown) in mind.  I love the escapist worlds he created. To be transported into the world of the Ring Cycle and to live out the adventure from Das Rheingold to Gotterdammerung pleases me to no end. The other day as I was listening to Siegfried from the Solti Ring when I got to the sword (Notung) forging scene the power and sublime beauty of that scene took my breath away.   I thought, damn you Wagner, damn you for having talent to write a masterpiece like that- why can't I compose music like that??  I guess some people were destined for greatness and others (moi) to only dream of greatness......and to enjoy it of course  ;)!

  So how about all you opera fans out there?  what Wagnerian operas have you been exploring lately? Next year I plan on getting the Bohm Tristan und Isolde and hopefully picking up another ring cycle on DVD, a different production from the Levine MET one I already have. What Wagnerian operas are you planning on purchasing next year?

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Anne on December 08, 2007, 04:57:42 PM
I had Kubelik's Meistersinger from a class I had attended earlier.  When I heard there was a Lohengrin also, I bought it.  Unfortunately I haven't listened to it yet.

Smetana's The Kiss has many references to Wagner that are very nice.  His style of accompaniment is quite symphonic. 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on December 08, 2007, 08:19:16 PM
May I assume you all have read the news of Gudrun Wagner's passing I posted at 'Opera News' at the top of the page.

Wolfgang must be devastated; she was his supporter in every possible way. I fear the loss might be too much for him, he is not in the best of health either.  :'(
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on December 10, 2007, 06:22:50 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on December 08, 2007, 02:13:20 PM
  emotional level unlike anything else I have heard throughout this past year. 

The 4 operas of the Ring Cycle, Tristan und Isolde, Die Meistersinger and Parsifal form the backbone (the spine) of my music collection.    So how about all you opera fans out there?  what Wagnerian operas have you been exploring lately?
  marvin
This past year I got to know Sawallisch's much underrated Ring Cycle. From start to finish an extremely solid recording with no frenetic or "milk the loud parts" moments along the veins of Boehm and Krauss. The only bad part is Hildegard Behrens sometimes sound rather wobbly vibratowise as Brunnhilde.

So you are awed by the Ring, Tristan and Parsifal. I think the audience at Bayreuth think the same way. Almost every live recording from there is pretty quiet. Some (like Boehm's Ring) you don't even think there is an audience.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on December 10, 2007, 06:01:02 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on December 10, 2007, 06:22:50 AM
This past year I got to know Sawallisch's much underrated Ring Cycle. From start to finish an extremely solid recording with no frenetic or "milk the loud parts" moments along the veins of Boehm and Krauss. The only bad part is Hildegard Behrens sometimes sound rather wobbly vibratowise as Brunnhilde.

Goodness! What a striking turnaround, PW!

I remember not long ago you felt a deep apprehension at my recommending this Sawallisch Ring. Remember? I had to fight you tooth and nail as I attempted to draw some much needed attention to this unheralded set.

But now look at us! In agreement. ;)

But, hey, in all seriousness, I feel a certain level of gratitude that someone's actually taken the time and effort to appraise this dark horse Ring. I feel all my carping hasn't been in vain after all...

Yes, I agree about Behrens. Warts and all, though, there's an artistic honesty and commitment to her singing that is certainly respectable. Little offends, and much delights. Overall, what Sawallisch (and the role) demands of her she delivers up in spades.



Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on December 10, 2007, 06:39:43 PM
Quote from: donwyn on December 10, 2007, 06:01:02 PM
Goodness! What a striking turnaround, PW!

I remember not long ago you felt a deep apprehension at my recommending this Sawallisch Ring. Remember? I had to fight you tooth and nail as I attempted to draw some much needed attention to this unheralded set.

But now look at us! In agreement. ;)

But, hey, in all seriousness, I feel a certain level of gratitude that someone's actually taken the time and effort to appraise this dark horse Ring. I feel all my carping hasn't been in vain after all...

Yes, I agree about Behrens. Warts and all, though, there's an artistic honesty and commitment to her singing that is certainly respectable. Little offends, and much delights. Overall, what Sawallisch (and the role) demands of her she delivers up in spades.

I have always liked Behrens. She gets a VERY bad rap because her voice is not really that of a dramatic soprano. But I liked her in the Levine cycle, where she is in better voice (but in the Sawallisch she is more expressive). I think she is analogous to Windgassen, both compensate for vocal shortcomings with artistry and insight.

I think the Sawallisch Ring is like a breath of fresh air (for lack of a better term). Orchestral and vocal balance is about ideal. The audience for the most part is mouse-quiet. The Bavarian State Opera Orchestra has that deep sound which is ideal for Wagner (although there are moments of ensemble lapse that is pretty astonishing since you would think they know this music by heart).

All in all not a bad $50 investment.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on December 10, 2007, 07:07:18 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on December 10, 2007, 06:39:43 PM
I think the Sawallisch Ring is like a breath of fresh air...

Yes, so apt...



Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on December 12, 2007, 02:55:09 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on December 10, 2007, 06:39:43 PM
I have always liked Behrens. She gets a VERY bad rap because her voice is not really that of a dramatic soprano. But I liked her in the Levine cycle, where she is in better voice (but in the Sawallisch she is more expressive). I think she is analogous to Windgassen, both compensate for vocal shortcomings with artistry and insight.


  I have to agree with you PW regarding Behrens.  I also have the Levine Ring and think she certainly looks the part and to a certain extent acts the part of Brunhilde well.  But you are right I too find her a bit subdued, her voice certainly isn't that of a dramatic soprano but she carries the role of Brunhilde well in the Levine DVD and those scenes between her and Wotan (James Morris) in Die Walkure are quite memorable.

  Going back  briefly  to a topic we were discussing earlier, what fascinates me most about Wagner's mature works (The Ring, Parsifal, Tristan, and Meistersinger) is the variety in musical texture between these pieces.  Wagner was a very daring composer who wasn't afraid to take risks.  With Tristan  it is very clear to me now that he wanted to do something quite extraordinary and different from the Ring and Meistersinger and I think he had a "stroke of genius" with that piece.  I also believe that he must have spent hours thinking how can I make Tristan a revolutionary work of art and with that Tristan chord I believe he was quite successful. 

  marvin

 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on December 12, 2007, 03:51:52 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on December 12, 2007, 02:55:09 AM
   I also believe that he must have spent hours thinking how can I make Tristan a revolutionary work of art and with that Tristan chord I believe he was quite successful. 

  marvin

 
Hours ? There's the understatement of the year. :D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: David Zalman on December 12, 2007, 07:38:11 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on December 12, 2007, 02:55:09 AMWagner was a very daring composer who wasn't afraid to take risks.  With Tristan  it is very clear to me now that he wanted to do something quite extraordinary and different from the Ring and Meistersinger and I think he had a "stroke of genius" with that piece.  I also believe that he must have spent hours thinking how can I make Tristan a revolutionary work of art and with that Tristan chord I believe he was quite successful.

A "stroke of genius" indeed.  Tristan was Wagner's most UNconscious work; that is, it came to him in a rush of creative inspiration almost faster than he could write it down, and once he began writing the music in earnest, he completed the work in a matter of months, not years (actually, a total of a little more than a year and a half).  You can pretty much bet giving odds that the very last thing he did with this work was to "spen[d] hours thinking how [he could] make Tristan a revolutionary work of art."
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on December 14, 2007, 11:26:41 AM
Quote from: David Zalman on December 12, 2007, 07:38:11 AM
A "stroke of genius" indeed.  Tristan was Wagner's most UNconscious work; that is, it came to him in a rush of creative inspiration almost faster than he could write it down, and once he began writing the music in earnest, he completed the work in a matter of months, not years (actually, a total of a little more than a year and a half).  You can pretty much bet giving odds that the very last thing he did with this work was to "spen[d] hours thinking how [he could] make Tristan a revolutionary work of art."

   Wow a matter of months, now that is certainly impressive!!  I would have imagined it would have taken years to complete Tristan given its complexity, over-whelmingly emotional music (especially Act 2 is astounding!!)  Perhaps the emotional turmoil (that love triangle Wagner found himself in with Otto and Mathilde Wesendonck) had some bearing on his creative impulses! 

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: David Zalman on December 15, 2007, 07:57:59 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on December 14, 2007, 11:26:41 AMPerhaps the emotional turmoil (that love triangle Wagner found himself in with Otto and Mathilde Wesendonck) had some bearing on his creative impulses!

Almost certainly the other way round.  That was Wagner's way -- his standard MO -- always.

In rereading my last, I see I should have elaborated a little on my comment:

Quote from: David ZalmanYou can pretty much bet giving odds that the very last thing he did with this work was to "spen[d] hours thinking how [he could] make Tristan a revolutionary work of art."

Wagner's intent in writing Tristan was to produce an easy work that any professional opera company could mount.

So much for good intentions.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on December 15, 2007, 10:06:30 AM
Quote from: David Zalman on December 15, 2007, 07:57:59 AM
Almost certainly the other way round.  That was Wagner's way -- his standard MO -- always.

In rereading my last, I see I should have elaborated a little on my comment:

Wagner's intent in writing Tristan was to produce an easy work that any professional opera company could mount.

So much for good intentions.

  David, thanks for the clarification and the humorous comment at the end  :)!

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on December 16, 2007, 12:10:03 AM
In terms of chorus and scene changes, Tristan does fit the bill. In Rheingold and Siegfried, Wagner asks for all sorts of stage effects or monsters. It is just that he forgot to write for the voice in such a way that more than a dozen living people have the ability and equipment to sing it.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: M forever on December 16, 2007, 06:24:13 AM
And why should he have written easier parts if that is what the music and the drama needed in his mind? Maybe there are also less good singers around today because they don't have the environment today to develop their voices carefully and gradually; at least that's what a lot of voice experts complain about. How "true" that is, I can not judge. It shouldn't be forgotten either that the pit in Bayreuth is covered and that orchestras back then most likely didn't play quite as loud (especially the brass) as they do today.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on December 16, 2007, 06:38:43 AM
Quote from: knight on December 16, 2007, 12:10:03 AM
It is just that he forgot to write for the voice in such a way that more than a dozen living people have the ability and equipment to sing it.

Mike

Joke comment, I don't use smilies. The first part of my comment was however serious and the demands of stagecraft and numbers of voices etc are very modest in comparison with anything from The Ring or Meistersingers.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: David Zalman on December 16, 2007, 01:25:22 PM
Quote from: knight on December 16, 2007, 12:10:03 AM
In terms of chorus and scene changes, Tristan does fit the bill. In Rheingold and Siegfried, Wagner asks for all sorts of stage effects or monsters. It is just that he forgot to write for the voice in such a way that more than a dozen living people have the ability and equipment to sing it.

It's not just the writing for the voice but for the orchestra as well. In the beginning, orchestras and conductors didn't know what to make of the score.  It baffled them almost completely.

And I see I used not quite the right word is saying Wagner's intent with Tristan was to create "...an easy work that any professional opera company could mount."  A better way to have phrased it would have been to say that Wagner's intent with Tristan was to create a practical work that any professional opera company could mount.

Quote from: M forever on December 16, 2007, 06:24:13 AMIt shouldn't be forgotten either that the pit in Bayreuth is covered and that orchestras back then most likely didn't play quite as loud (especially the brass) as they do today.

At the time of the writing of Tristan, Bayreuth was merely a gleam in Wagner's eye.  Additionally, Wagner wrote Tristan with the ordinary opera house of the time specifically in mind, not his mere dream of an opera house built to his special needs and specifications.  That was a primary thought in his setting to work on Tristan when he did.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: M forever on December 16, 2007, 11:35:04 PM
Sorry, hadn't read much of the discussion before knight's post, so I didn't get that you were talking *specifically* about Tristan. I thought you were talking more about the Ring.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on January 05, 2008, 07:55:15 AM
Quote from: David Zalman on December 16, 2007, 01:25:22 PM
It's not just the writing for the voice but for the orchestra as well. In the beginning, orchestras and conductors didn't know what to make of the score.  It baffled them almost completely.

And I see I used not quite the right word is saying Wagner's intent with Tristan was to create "...an easy work that any professional opera company could mount."  A better way to have phrased it would have been to say that Wagner's intent with Tristan was to create a practical work that any professional opera company could mount.

At the time of the writing of Tristan, Bayreuth was merely a gleam in Wagner's eye.  Additionally, Wagner wrote Tristan with the ordinary opera house of the time specifically in mind, not his mere dream of an opera house built to his special needs and specifications.  That was a primary thought in his setting to work on Tristan when he did.

  Pardon the belated response but I have been away on holiday for a few weeks and only now did I get to this post.  With regards to "practicality" as it relates to Wagner's operas, in a recent documentary I saw on Wagner it has been suggested that part of the "allure" or "captivation" of Wagner is that his music dramas never really addressed practicalities and in a sense they are completely impossible to perform on stage as Wagner had envisaged.  Now whether this applies to Tristan I am not sure but as far as the Ring is concerned some of the stage directions that Wagner calls for are enough to make any opera stage director's job a living nightmare!! Not to mention of course the marathon roles that the singers had to commit themselves to which according to Wagnerian singer Deborah Polaski are "physically exhausting"!!

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 05, 2008, 08:37:16 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on December 08, 2007, 02:13:20 PM

What Wagnerian operas are you planning on purchasing next year? marvin

Hey, Marvin. My favorite Ring, Tristan, and Parsifal are conducted by Karajan. I'm planning to buy these to add to my Karajan collection:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w300/front/0/0724356708624.jpg)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w300/front/0/0077776465029.jpg)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w300/front/0/0724356651920.jpg)

I'm also thinking seriously about this Ring (yeah, like I need another Ring  ;D )

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w300/front/0/0828765570923.jpg)

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on January 05, 2008, 09:48:07 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 05, 2008, 08:37:16 AM
Hey, Marvin. My favorite Ring, Tristan, and Parsifal are conducted by Karajan. I'm planning to buy these to add to my Karajan collection:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w300/front/0/0724356708624.jpg)

Sarge

  An excellent choice with that Karajan Meistersinger Sarge, I have that same recording and I wore it out- I must have played it from start to finish well over 10 times.  The Dresden Staatskapelle truly "shines like old gold" in this recording- read the preface to the libretto as soon as you get this recording Sarge and you'll know what I am talking about  ;).  That recording is pure magic from the overture to the wonderfull quintet "Die selige Morgentraum-Duetweise" at the opening of the 4th CD and those last 15 minutes of the opera, when THE PRIZE SONG is played accompanied by the chorus are just heavenly  0:).  You are in for a real treat!!

  PS:  I also love Karajan's Parsifal with the Berliner Philharmoniker as well!! Some people criticize it for being a bit too polished, musically beautified,  but it suits me just fine.  Parsifal works quite well "Karajan style".  Also,  I have already ordered Bohm's Tristan und Isolde with Nilsson.  I don't really need another Tristan und Isolde (I have two recordings with Flagstad and the Barenboim DVD on DG) but the way Wagnerians rant and rave about that Bohm recording have caused me to cave in and buy it!!  Sadly however I do not have it in my budget to acquire another Ring Cycle-  I have Solti's and Levine DVD at the MET which will have to do for now. 

  marvin     
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on January 05, 2008, 10:07:23 AM
The Janowski Ring is really quite excellent. It might be a little light for some people, but I find its emphasis on internal and overall architecture quite engaging. While conservative Wagnerians will generally argue that such transparency is not-so-great, and I concede that they might be right, it is, still, nice to be able to see what's going on in the music at both a micro and macro level. 

Von Karajan's Meistersinger is the reference recording of the work. If Furtwängler's 1943 recording had been complete and in better sound, it would likely hold that spot, though Furtwängler's singers aren't as good as Von Karajan's. Orchestrally, though, I might still give the prize to Furtwängler, even if Von Karajan has the overall better set. I haven't heard the Abendroth set from the same Bayreuth season as Furtwängler.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: M forever on January 05, 2008, 11:54:30 AM
Quote from: PSmith08 on January 05, 2008, 10:07:23 AM
The Janowski Ring is really quite excellent. It might be a little light for some people, but I find its emphasis on internal and overall architecture quite engaging. While conservative Wagnerians will generally argue that such transparency is not-so-great, and I concede that they might be right

Why might they be right? The scores have a lot of very fine detail, it is pretty obious that Wagner wanted that to be heard, otherwise he wouldn't have worked it out so meticulously. It is very interesting to see how many examples from the Ring Strauss used when he annotated Berlioz' book on orchestration, and most of these are examples of avery conscious and inventive use of instrumental color for expressive reasons. Wagner didn't just orchestrate in order to build up more or less sound mass in given moments. He used the large ensembles he asked for in a very nuanced way.
What would these conservative Wagnerians say?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on January 05, 2008, 12:57:47 PM
Quote from: M forever on January 05, 2008, 11:54:30 AM
Why might they be right? The scores have a lot of very fine detail, it is pretty obvious that Wagner wanted that to be heard, otherwise he wouldn't have worked it out so meticulously. It is very interesting to see how many examples from the Ring Strauss used when he annotated Berlioz' book on orchestration, and most of these are examples of a very conscious and inventive use of instrumental color for expressive reasons. Wagner didn't just orchestrate in order to build up more or less sound mass in given moments. He used the large ensembles he asked for in a very nuanced way.
What would these conservative Wagnerians say?

You answered your own question. The instrumental color is the primary objective, and you cannot concentrate on color when, to further the analogy, you're looking at individual brush-strokes. I don't think that there is much argument to that. Everything should be there to add up to Wagner's intent, but that process of addition is, by and large, unnecessary to the listener. Now, you might want to ask a real conservative Wagnerian, and there is at least one around at a given moment, if you want a better explanation.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 06, 2008, 06:54:15 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 05, 2008, 09:48:07 AM
An excellent choice with that Karajan Meistersinger Sarge...   

Quote from: PSmith08 on January 05, 2008, 10:07:23 AM
Karajan's Meistersinger is the reference recording of the work.

I don't expect Karajan's Lohengrin and Holländer to supercede long-time favorites (Holländer: Dorati and Klemperer; Lohengrin: Kempe and Keilberth) but I have high hopes for his Meistersinger. I thank you both for the encouragement.

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on January 06, 2008, 12:37:25 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 06, 2008, 06:54:15 AM
I don't expect Karajan's Lohengrin and Holländer to supercede long-time favorites (Holländer: Dorati and Klemperer; Lohengrin: Kempe and Keilberth) but I have high hopes for his Meistersinger. I thank you both for the encouragement.

Sarge





I don't think it's entirely misleading to expect Karajan's Holländer to supercede each. I thought that was excellent. I still haven't made up my mind on the Ring..., or Lohengrin however.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2008, 05:14:11 AM
Quote from: Haffner on January 06, 2008, 12:37:25 PM
I don't think it's entirely misleading to expect Karajan's Holländer to supercede each. I thought that was excellent.

I'm sure it is, Andy. I've heard few Karajan opera performances that haven't been excellent...and yes, I even include his Don Giovanni  ;D I'm particularly looking forward to Kurt Moll's Daland. But Klemperer has a unique way of conducting the score and his trio of Theo Adam, Anja Silja and Martti Talvela really appeals to me. The Dorati Dutchman is a sentimental favorite (the first opera I ever heard) and has the superb George London. But I'll retain an open mind and, despite my earlier comment, won't be prejudging Karajan's Dutchman.

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on January 07, 2008, 05:28:20 AM
Quote from: Haffner on January 06, 2008, 12:37:25 PM

I don't think it's entirely misleading to expect Karajan's Holländer to supercede each. I thought that was excellent. I still haven't made up my mind on the Ring..., or Lohengrin however.

  Regrettably I have never heard Karajan's Ring.  I know its a personal favorite of Sarge's especially Die Walkure.  Cost is a very big issue, Karajan's Ring is as expensive as Solti's if not more expensive.  As much as I have tried, it has been impossible for me to sample it in any of the stores and the local library does not stock it.  I would be very curious to hear how Karajan interprets Siegfried above all else.  Does he supply the captivating raw power and aggression that Solti's Siegfried does?  Or does Karajan provide a more "docile" approach?

  marvin 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2008, 05:44:33 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 07, 2008, 05:28:20 AM
  Regrettably I have never heard Karajan's Ring.  I know its a personal favorite of Sarge's especially Die Walkure.  Cost is a very big issue, Karajan's Ring is as expensive as Solti's if not more expensive.  As much as I have tried, it has been impossible for me to sample it in any of the stores and the local library does not stock it.  I would be very curious to hear how Karajan interprets Siegfried above all else.  Does he supply the captivating raw power and aggression that Solti's Siegfried does?  Or does Karajan provide a more "docile" approach?

  marvin 

I'm not being original when I say that Solti and Karajan complement each other perfectly. Truth vs. Beauty. I prefer Solti's 'Götterdämmerung' and Karajan's 'Rheingold'. 'Walküre' and 'Siegfried' are more or less even, although Nilsson and Windgassen are electrifying in the last act of Solti's Siegfried. BUT- the opening to that same act is grander and more awe-inspiring with the slower Karajan - Solti's is more urgent... In short - you simply need to hear both. And it's a pity your local library doesn't have the Karajan.

Jez
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on January 07, 2008, 06:05:41 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2008, 05:14:11 AM
I'm sure it is, Andy. I've heard few Karajan opera performances that haven't been excellent...and yes, I even include his Don Giovanni  ;D

Sarge





Love that one!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2008, 07:19:12 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 07, 2008, 05:28:20 AM
Regrettably I have never heard Karajan's Ring....I would be very curious to hear how Karajan interprets Siegfried above all else.  Does he supply the captivating raw power and aggression that Solti's Siegfried does?  Or does Karajan provide a more "docile" approach?

Quote from: Jezetha on January 07, 2008, 05:44:33 AM
I'm not being original when I say that Solti and Karajan complement each other perfectly. Truth vs. Beauty.

I could counter that with a bit of Keats ("Beauty is truth, truth beauty") but I won't. I understand what you mean.

Quote from: Jezetha on January 07, 2008, 05:44:33 AM
I prefer Solti's 'Götterdämmerung' and Karajan's 'Rheingold'. 'Walküre' and 'Siegfried' are more or less even, although Nilsson and Windgassen are electrifying in the last act of Solti's Siegfried. BUT- the opening to that same act is grander and more awe-inspiring with the slower Karajan - Solti's is more urgent... In short - you simply need to hear both. And it's a pity your local library doesn't have the Karajan.

My take is similar but slightly different. I too, in general if not specifics, prefer Karajan's Rheingold and Solti's Götterdämmerung but I think Solti's Walküre is the weak link in his cycle while Karajan and the siblings Jon Vickers and Janowitz have never been bettered, especially in the first act. Karajan has power when needed in Siegfried...but...I understand the criticism aimed at Jess Thomas. In the light of Gerhard Stolze's strong Mimi (edit: oops, I mean Mime: Stolze rarely sang Bohème  ;D ), Thomas doesn't have the requisite Heldentenor chops. Still, it's a portrayal I've come to enjoy. I just needed to forgo preconceptions and accept his Siegfried for what it is: not the Übermensch and Teutonic ideal of the Hero, but a gullible and still wet-behind-the-ears youth who has a lot of growing up to do. Not traditional, but it works for me. I think, though, Marvin, that it might disappoint you after Solti's tour-de-force. But, I really can't help thinking, when I hear Windgassen, that here is a middle-aged Siegfried. Not exactly ideal either. That's why we need the '53 Krauss or the '55 Keilberth, too.

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2008, 07:29:31 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 07, 2008, 05:28:20 AM
Regrettably I have never heard Karajan's Ring.  I know its a personal favorite of Sarge's especially Die Walkure.  Cost is a very big issue...

I completely understand. I had only one Ring for about five years before I could finally afford a second (and then only because a discount club in Germany had the Böhm for the remarkable price of 99 DM). And then ten years went by before I had my third. It's been a lifelong process of acquisition. But like the Ring itself, there's no need to hurry  :)

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2008, 08:14:48 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2008, 07:19:12 AM
That's why we need the '53 Krauss or the '55 Keilberth, too.

I downloaded the Krauss last month (from Classic Music Mobile), and after listening to the last act of Siegfried I was very impressed by his command of structure and his well-judged tempi. Apart from some great singing, of course!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2008, 08:26:41 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on January 07, 2008, 08:14:48 AM
I downloaded the Krauss last month (from Classic Music Mobile), and after listening to the last act of Siegfried I was very impressed by his command of structure and his well-judged tempi. Apart from some great singing, of course!

Agree. Among the Siegfrieds I own, the Krauss is my favorite. (I haven't heard Keilberth yet but now that Testament is offering the entire Ring cycle in one box, at half the price of the single issues, it may be something I'll purchase this year too.)

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: M forever on January 07, 2008, 10:39:30 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2008, 05:14:11 AM
I'm sure it is, Andy. I've heard few Karajan opera performances that haven't been excellent...and yes, I even include his Don Giovanni  ;D

I am still trying to figure out why. I even did a search to find your post about that, but with no success. Was that in the old forum?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on January 08, 2008, 12:35:06 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2008, 07:29:31 AM
I completely understand. I had only one Ring for about five years before I could finally afford a second (and then only because a discount club in Germany had the Böhm for the remarkable price of 99 DM). And then ten years went by before I had my third. It's been a lifelong process of acquisition. But like the Ring itself, there's no need to hurry  :)

Sarge





And now Sarge can laugh at my envy!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on January 08, 2008, 12:38:03 AM
Quote from: M forever on January 07, 2008, 10:39:30 AM
I am still trying to figure out why. I even did a search to find your post about that, but with no success. Was that in the old forum?




Do you mean in regard Karajan's Don Giovanni, M.? I don't know about Sarge, but I really loved the performances of Battle and Ramey. And I do tralize that HvK tends to Beethoven/Wagner-ize Mozart a bit. I like the change.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 08, 2008, 04:30:58 AM
Quote from: M forever on January 07, 2008, 10:39:30 AM
I am still trying to figure out why. I even did a search to find your post about that, but with no success. Was that in the old forum?

I thought it was here but yeah, it may have been at the old forum, M. I'll look for it and if I can't find it, I'll retype my explanation.

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: David Zalman on January 08, 2008, 04:01:16 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 05, 2008, 07:55:15 AM
  Pardon the belated response but I have been away on holiday for a few weeks and only now did I get to this post.  With regards to "practicality" as it relates to Wagner's operas, in a recent documentary I saw on Wagner it has been suggested that part of the "allure" or "captivation" of Wagner is that his music dramas never really addressed practicalities and in a sense they are completely impossible to perform on stage as Wagner had envisaged.  Now whether this applies to Tristan I am not sure but as far as the Ring is concerned some of the stage directions that Wagner calls for are enough to make any opera stage director's job a living nightmare!! Not to mention of course the marathon roles that the singers had to commit themselves to which according to Wagnerian singer Deborah Polaski are "physically exhausting"!!

You're right about Wagner's envisaged staging of the Ring.  It's impossible.  Tristan, however, is a piece of cake.

You might find this article on the staging of Wagner's music dramas by our friend ACD to be of some interest.

http://www.soundsandfury.com/soundsandfury/2005/04/staging_ithe_ri.html




Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: David Zalman on January 08, 2008, 04:10:43 PM
Quote from: M forever on January 05, 2008, 11:54:30 AM
Why might they be right? The scores [of Wagner's music dramas] have a lot of very fine detail, it is pretty obious that Wagner wanted that to be heard, otherwise he wouldn't have worked it out so meticulously. It is very interesting to see how many examples from the Ring Strauss used when he annotated Berlioz' book on orchestration, and most of these are examples of avery conscious and inventive use of instrumental color for expressive reasons. Wagner didn't just orchestrate in order to build up more or less sound mass in given moments. He used the large ensembles he asked for in a very nuanced way.  What would these conservative Wagnerians say?

They (and that includes myself) would say:

Quote from: A.C. DouglasWagner's musico-dramatic and symphonic contrapuntal genius is almost always realized in the massing, rarely in details of inner line, and [Karl] Böhm's transparent and razor-edge-precise readings of Wagner wherein the revealing of inner line is prominent are therefore just plain wrong (i.e., un-Wagnerian). They're wrong because while precision and the revealing of inner line in the music of, say, Mozart or Beethoven is to reveal the very soul of the music, precision and the revealing of inner line in Wagner's music serves only to reveal how the sorcerer accomplished his magic. Not a good thing, not a good thing at all, as any self-respecting sorcerer will attest.

ACD's complete post on this may be read here:

http://www.soundsandfury.com/soundsandfury/2004/08/wagner_musings.html
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: David Zalman on January 08, 2008, 04:17:28 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 07, 2008, 05:28:20 AM
Regrettably I have never heard Karajan's Ring.  I know its a personal favorite of Sarge's especially Die Walkure.  Cost is a very big issue, Karajan's Ring is as expensive as Solti's if not more expensive.  As much as I have tried, it has been impossible for me to sample it in any of the stores and the local library does not stock it.  I would be very curious to hear how Karajan interprets Siegfried above all else.  Does he supply the captivating raw power and aggression that Solti's Siegfried does?  Or does Karajan provide a more "docile" approach?

Karajan had the bizarre idea that Wagner should sound as lyrical and intimate as Verdi.  Needless to say, his reading of the Ring is about as un-Wagnerian as it's possible to be.  His Ring set has been dubbed by Wagnerians The Chamber Ring.  Unkind, certainly, but not far off the mark.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: M forever on January 08, 2008, 06:01:23 PM
So you know more about what is "Wagnerian" than Böhm, Karajan, or Strauss? Or Janowski, for that matter? Or a whole lot of other conductors who explored that aspect of Wagner's music to a certain degree?

No, the above nonsense quoted by you is just something which people say who only grasp one particular aspect of such a complex musical world and declare it to be the one and only decisive aspect. Very typical for people who don't understand a particular cultural context and only look at it from the outside.
Just one question: can you even pronounce the name "Richard Wagner"?

But - thanks for the free entertainment!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: David Zalman on January 08, 2008, 08:18:00 PM
Quote from: M forever on January 08, 2008, 06:01:23 PM
So you know more about what is "Wagnerian" than Böhm, Karajan, or Strauss? Or Janowski, for that matter? Or a whole lot of other conductors who explored that aspect of Wagner's music to a certain degree?

No, the above nonsense quoted by you is just something which people say who only grasp one particular aspect of such a complex musical world and declare it to be the one and only decisive aspect. Very typical for people who don't understand a particular cultural context and only look at it from the outside.
Just one question: can you even pronounce the name "Richard Wagner"?

But - thanks for the free entertainment!

You asked what would conservative Wagnerians say.  I assumed you were not asking what would some Wagner fan say, but what would an informed conservative Wagnerian say, and so answered you accordingly by quoting one of the most informed conservative Wagnerians of my acquaintance, and one who is also conservatory trained as a musician and conductor.

As for your rhetorical about Karajan and Boehm (neither of whom were conservative Wagnerians, not so BTW), you merely displayed your ignorance.  Both Karajan and Boehm knew *exactly* how Wagner should go -- and hated it.  That's why they both decided unilaterally to change the way Wagner should go, each according to his own tastes in the matter.  As for Strauss and Janowski, the former was notorious for NOT knowing how Wagner should go, and the latter is simply a Wagnerian nullity and so doesn't count.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: M forever on January 08, 2008, 08:58:48 PM
Quote from: David Zalman on January 08, 2008, 08:18:00 PM
As for Strauss and Janowski, the former was notorious for NOT knowing how Wagner should go, and the latter is simply a Wagnerian nullity and so doesn't count.

So, for who was Strauss "notorious" as not knowing "how Wagner should go"? And if Janowski is a "Wagnerian nullity", what are you? A negative quantity? Who *are* you to make such statements? Where can I get your Ring recording with an orchestra on the level of the Staatskapelle Dresden?
And how do you know what Karajan and Böhm really thought? Did they tell you? Did they ask for your advice?

If you are such an expert for Wagner, you must know a lot about German culture. Do you know what the word "Schwachkopf" means?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on January 08, 2008, 09:06:27 PM
Quote from: M forever on January 08, 2008, 08:58:48 PM
So, for who was Strauss "notorious" as not knowing "how Wagner should go"? And if Janowski is a "Wagnerian nullity", what are you? A negative quantity? Who *are* you to make such statements? Where can I get your Ring recording with an orchestra on the level of the Staatskapelle Dresden?
And how do you know what Karajan and Böhm really thought? Did they tell you? Did they ask for your advice?

If you are such an expert for Wagner, you must know a lot about German culture. Do you know what the word "Schwachkopf" means?

If you have an issue with Dave's comments, you'd do better to register your objections with ACD. I read most of these arguments in the post "Have A Merry Nibelungen Christmas" (21 December 2005), including a bowdlerization of this quip, "Karajan because of his ludicrous and perverse conceit that Wagner should sound as lyrical as Verdi."

Take it to the source, I say. You'll also be able to engage fully with the arguments, as opposed to summaries, quotes, and near-quotes.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: David Zalman on January 08, 2008, 09:43:21 PM
Quote from: M forever on January 08, 2008, 08:58:48 PMSo, for who was Strauss "notorious" as not knowing "how Wagner should go"?  [...]  And how do you know what Karajan and Böhm really thought? Did they tell you? Did they ask for your advice?

Were you not such a Wagner ignoramus (and a belligerent one at that) you would know the answers to those questions.

Strauss was notorious for not knowing how Wagner should go according to those who were in a direct line of first-hand witnesses to how Wagner himself said his works should go.  And as for knowing what Karajan and Boehm really thought about this matter, they told me -- along with the whole world, or rather, those of the whole world who were interested enough to take note of such things.  I simply repeated editorially what each said about it, including how each said he intended to change how Wagner should go.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: M forever on January 08, 2008, 11:44:13 PM
Quote from: PSmith08 on January 08, 2008, 09:06:27 PM
Take it to the source, I say. You'll also be able to engage fully with the arguments, as opposed to summaries, quotes, and near-quotes.

Thanks for the tips, but...nah...why should I waste my time discussing such matters concerning my own culture with idiots like him who don't know the first thing about that? Not even the very, very first thing. That doesn't make sense. That guy is just a dumb piece of crap, what in my (and Wagner's) language is called "ein dummes Stück Scheisse", somebody who in the circles of his equally ignorant friends may pass for some kind of expert, but who can't fool anybody who knows just a little bit about that subject. Just a tiny little bit.
I find it highly amusing though how so many people try to appropriate elements of my culture without having even the slightest bit of insights into it, people who really don't know anything about it - at all. That really amuses me. That would be like me pontificating about the fineties of, say, Chinese culture, without even knowing 2 words in their language. Like this "Wichskopf" D. Zalman here who probably can't speak 2 words of German, but he thinks he knows what "Wagnerian" is. Zum totlachen.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on January 09, 2008, 12:32:18 AM
Quote from: David Zalman on January 08, 2008, 04:01:16 PM
You're right about Wagner's envisaged staging of the Ring.  It's impossible.  Tristan, however, is a piece of cake.

You might find this article on the staging of Wagner's music dramas by our friend ACD to be of some interest.

http://www.soundsandfury.com/soundsandfury/2005/04/staging_ithe_ri.html



  Thank you David for the link.  I found it a most interesting if not challenging read.  I especially found quite refreshing AC Douglas' take that an opera stage director should take a "minimalist" approach to staging the Ring in order for the drama to be fully realized through its principal carrier, the music!  But AC Douglas does refer briefly to the cinematic potential, in lieu of an unrealizable stage production, of the Ring. Perhaps it is time for a "Hollywood" big budget production of Wagner's 4 opera epic, I think I would like to see what Steven Spielberg or George Lucas could do with the Ring.

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on January 09, 2008, 01:21:56 PM
Quote from: M forever on January 08, 2008, 11:44:13 PM
Thanks for the tips, but...nah...why should I waste my time discussing such matters concerning my own culture with idiots like him who don't know the first thing about that? Not even the very, very first thing. That doesn't make sense. That guy is just a dumb piece of crap, what in my (and Wagner's) language is called "ein dummes Stück Scheisse", somebody who in the circles of his equally ignorant friends may pass for some kind of expert, but who can't fool anybody who knows just a little bit about that subject. Just a tiny little bit.
I find it highly amusing though how so many people try to appropriate elements of my culture without having even the slightest bit of insights into it, people who really don't know anything about it - at all. That really amuses me. That would be like me pontificating about the fineties of, say, Chinese culture, without even knowing 2 words in their language. Like this "Wichskopf" D. Zalman here who probably can't speak 2 words of German, but he thinks he knows what "Wagnerian" is. Zum totlachen.

Eh. Just throwing that out there.

I find it amusing that Karl Böhm comes in for the ire of our ACD-proxy, as Böhm received a favorable recommendation from no less than Karl Muck to no less than Bruno Walter. Richard Strauss, too, had worked with and received a similar recommendation from Hans von Bülow, who was - as any Wagnerian would know - an associate of Wagner, to understate the matter. Indeed, Von Bülow premiered Tristan und Isolde in Munich.

History is what it is, despite the best efforts of those who would have it otherwise.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Don on January 09, 2008, 01:29:51 PM
Quote from: PSmith08 on January 09, 2008, 01:21:56 PM
Eh. Just throwing that out there.

I find it amusing that Karl Böhm comes in for the ire of our ACD-proxy,

It's no big deal, but I've never thought he was an ACD-proxy (just an ACD).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on January 09, 2008, 07:40:42 PM
Quote from: Don on January 09, 2008, 01:29:51 PM
It's no big deal, but I've never thought he was an ACD-proxy (just an ACD).

Knowing ACD as glancingly as I do, from another board and some other interactions, I doubt that he would post under an assumed name. It doesn't seem like his style. He could also make the arguments (from memory) without recourse to quoting himself.

It doesn't add up, but I admit that the thought has crossed my mind.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on January 10, 2008, 09:20:50 AM

  I am saddened to read that this thread has taken a turn for the worst with hostilities and accusations being traded between various GMG members.  I hope we can return to a more civilized way of dealing with each other and most importantly discussing Wagner.  I would like to ask, seeing as how an agreement could not be reached over the "correct" way of conducting and interpreting Wagner's music: Did Wagner ever give specific instructions to conductors as to how they should interpret his music? Also can someone provide a link to  ACD's article that address this issue, if available?   

  marvin
 
 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on January 10, 2008, 09:29:03 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 10, 2008, 09:20:50 AM
 Did Wagner ever give specific instructions to conductors as to how they should interpret his music?
Didn't Wagner always complained that the fast parts of his music is always conducted too slowly and the slow parts are always conducted too fast ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: M forever on January 10, 2008, 09:37:37 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 10, 2008, 09:20:50 AM
I would like to ask, seeing as how an agreement could not be reached over the "correct" way of conducting and interpreting Wagner's music 

That's the point: like with any other complex body of musical works, there is no single, "correct", "Wagnerian", approach to interpretation. That idea is just a cliché concept. Which is seriously contradicted by some very relevant interpreters of his music (such as the above mentioned Strauss, Karajan, Böhm, Janowski, and many others).

Quote from: marvinbrown on January 10, 2008, 09:20:50 AM
Did Wagner ever give specific instructions to conductors as to how they should interpret his music?

Yep, they are called "the scores". Wagner also left a fairly extensive body of writing about interpreting music (his and other composers'). But if a conductor just sticks to the scores and tries to bring out the very nuanced and complex way of writing - instead of turning everything into some kind of bombastic sound sauce to satisfy some vague and generalized idea of "Wagnerian" sound -, that is already a very relevant contribution in itself. Saying that all the interpreters had absolutely no clue - or did, but decided to d other things for whatever reasons is complete nonsense. And certainly not the basis for a serious discussion of this very complex subject. I find it just silly if someone thinks he has a very strong opinion about a musical culture he obviously doesn't understand and all he has to say to back up his "views" is summarily dismiss artists who are an integral part of that musical culture.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on January 10, 2008, 09:41:03 AM
Quote from: M forever on January 10, 2008, 09:37:37 AM
I find it just silly if someone thinks he has a very strong opinion about a musical culture he obviously doesn't understand and all he has to say to back up his "views" is summarily dismiss artists who are an integral part of that musical culture.






I find this to be a shared peeve, and agree.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: David Zalman on January 10, 2008, 11:55:18 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 10, 2008, 09:20:50 AMI would like to ask, seeing as how an agreement could not be reached over the "correct" way of conducting and interpreting Wagner's music: Did Wagner ever give specific instructions to conductors as to how they should interpret his music? Also can someone provide a link to  ACD's article that address this issue, if available?

Interestingly enough, although Wagner wrote at length concerning just about everything under the sun about which he had the most untoward ideas, and wrote at length about the staging of his operas and music dramas, he wrote very little about how his music should be conducted.  There are, however, two publications that do just that.  The first is an account written by Heinrich Porges, a member of Wagner's inner circle, the account written at Wagner's express command and approved by him.  It's titled, Die Bühnenproben zu den Bayreuther Festspielen des Jahres 1876 (The Stage Rehearsals for the Bayreuth Festival of 1876), and ACD has a detailed post on that publication.  It can be read at:

http://www.soundsandfury.com/soundsandfury/2004/07/firsthand_witne.html

There's also the critical extended essay written by Wagner himself titled, Über das Dirigiren (On Conducting), which can be read in an English translation by Edward Dannreuther titled, Wagner on Conducting which can be ordered from Amazon.com at:

http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Conducting-Richard/dp/0486259323/ref=reader_auth_dp

Also, there's another article by ACD on this subject that you may find of interest.  It can be read at:

http://www.soundsandfury.com/soundsandfury/2007/06/on_reading_a_sc.html

UPDATE: There seem to be two versions online of ACD's article given in the first link above.  I e-mailed ACD asking which one to link.  He just responded saying he wasn't aware there were two versions, but went looking after receiving my e-mail and found the second version which was only slightly different from the first.  He's now deleted the superfluous version, and placed the correct version at the link given above.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Guarnerius on January 12, 2008, 05:10:17 AM
Hello Wagner Fans! :)


Such a complex conversation on one composer. But finally, the main thing is, if we enjoy his masterworks or not? When the answer is negative, what's the use to complain it here - better to choose some other site, it is that simple! ;D Or launch totally an another page for those who dislikes Wagner. $:) Besides, it is useless to accuse the composer Wagner himself about certain details, which have nothing to do with him as a person! Not to mention other members in this forum trying to change opinions with decent manners. 0:)

Anyway, there is no doubt that his works can B really "hypnotizing", guess it was Marwin, who said there earlier very fine, that Wagner operas R "psychological thrillers with symphonic soundtrack". Indeed! They R like hometheatres with classical music, "scary movies in past days", Gesamtkunstwerke with audible multi channeled special effects and fascinating mythical stories.

If I had to choose my own favourite work by Wagner, it would B Parsifal. I like that symphonic texture in it, the other choice would B Götterdämmerung, a conclusion of that exciting adventure of Ring des Nibelungen. In both of them there is a feeling of complete fulfilment, reaching of wholeness after the huge challenging adventure. On the other hand, there is also a sense of longing farewall and joy of waiting to C again. That's the genius in music - to make the listener return to the composition and start enjoying it once again, perhaps discovering some new details unseen before. Hmmm... with a great excitement I'm gonna find next the fresh EMI recording of Tristan & Isolde, starring Domingo, Stemme, Bostridge, ROHCG, cond. Pappano. Somebody have already listening experiences and comments on it?


With Friendly Greetings and all the Best Regards especially to Marwin, Michel, Anne, Solitary Wanderer, Uffeviking and all the Wagnerites. ;)


P.S. Oh, I forgot to mention: I would need to ask some advice, when I have a toothache, could it B originating from Wagner music, should I change to another composer? ;D What about the weather conditions, does it change more sunny if I choose instead of Wagner for example some Mozart? :P Cheers...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wendell_E on January 12, 2008, 05:45:33 AM
Quote from: Guarnerius on January 12, 2008, 05:10:17 AM
Hello Wagner Fans! :)
P.S. Oh, I forgot to mention: I would need to ask some advice, when I have a toothache, could it B originating from Wagner music, should I change to another composer?

Hmmm.  I don't know about toothaches, but I've always found that listening to Der Fliegende Holländer is great for curing headaches.  Bruckner symphonies work, too.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: paulb on January 12, 2008, 08:01:15 AM
Quote from: David Zalman on January 10, 2008, 11:55:18 AM
Interestingly enough, although Wagner wrote at length concerning just about everything under the sun about which he had the most untoward ideas, and wrote at length about the staging of his operas and music dramas, he wrote very little about how his music should be conducted.  There are, however, two publications that do just that.  The first is an account written by Heinrich Porges, a member of Wagner's inner circle, the account written at Wagner's express command and approved by him.  It's titled, Die Bühnenproben zu den Bayreuther Festspielen des Jahres 1876 (The Stage Rehearsals for the Bayreuth Festival of 1876), and ACD has a detailed post on that publication.  It can be read at:

http://www.soundsandfury.com/soundsandfury/2004/07/firsthand_witne.html

There's also the critical extended essay written by Wagner himself titled, Über das Dirigiren (On Conducting), which can be read in an English translation by Edward Dannreuther titled, Wagner on Conducting which can be ordered from Amazon.com at:

http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Conducting-Richard/dp/0486259323/ref=reader_auth_dp

Also, there's another article by ACD on this subject that you may find of interest.  It can be read at:

http://www.soundsandfury.com/soundsandfury/2007/06/on_reading_a_sc.html

UPDATE: There seem to be two versions online of ACD's article given in the first link above.  I e-mailed ACD asking which one to link.  He just responded saying he wasn't aware there were two versions, but went looking after receiving my e-mail and found the second version which was only slightly different from the first.  He's now deleted the superfluous version, and placed the correct version at the link given above.


In my rather limited experience of the various recordiings of the Ring, only 3 have made a  impression enough to fork out close to $100 on each.
Bohm is not among the 3. If you read the reviews on amazon of Bohm's , most all agree the tempos are "TOO FAST" "WHY?" So that closes that possiblity for me. Not sure why i would add a  4th recording, but if there was one to at least come close to the 3 I have, I'd seriously considering getting it off amzon's used list.
And also the Kraus, which has  a  extremely devoted fan base, "oh man its the one, the finest ever in history, no doubt about it", is not among the 3 I have. I had the Kraus, the casting was close to pemier class, though at times overall slightly less than the three I have. Kraus conducting is just too sloshy to make the Ring come alive and its not just the recessed sound factor.

I also own none from  Kna, though i am sure among his many recordings , there may be some of value.

Wagner 's ring should not be appraiched ina   finely chisled manner, as some here suggest, the mythical story telling of the work should have this mystical mysteroius mood, but at times of climaxes and cresendos, then is the time to leave the brooding undefined mode and break the clouds to allow bright beams of sunlight.
Takes both modalites of testures.
But Kraus is too sludge like. Not easy to make the low tonal parts to come off as not being cold ,frozen, dragging, takes a   special conductor to do this feat of bringing warmth. Furtwangler was able to bring a  orch such as the Italian to such a   level of effects, no other conductor could manage sucha   challenge. The Italians in Wagner? Yes, and with stunning results, A true magician!
So now you know one of the 3 I have found most successful in this most challenging of operatic music.

Obviously the other 2 are from the Bayreuth.
I made some comments on the 3 rings over at amazon.

Strange how if just one cast member is slightly off in form my interest correspondingly falls off.
There's hardly a  weak part in these 3 Rings, as yet as least I;ve not discovered any, and doubt there is any.

Relatively new to Wagner and will scan the interesting posts in the topic that I;'ve missed since away.,.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on January 12, 2008, 08:58:37 AM
Quote from: paulb on January 12, 2008, 08:01:15 AM

In my rather limited experience of the various recordings of the Ring, only 3 have made a  impression enough to fork out close to $100 on each.
Bohm is not among the 3. If you read the reviews on amazon of Bohm's , most all agree the tempos are "TOO FAST" "WHY?" So that closes that possiblity for me. Not sure why i would add a  4th recording, but if there was one to at least come close to the 3 I have, I'd seriously considering getting it off amzon's used list.
And also the Kraus, which has  a  extremely devoted fan base, "oh man its the one, the finest ever in history, no doubt about it", is not among the 3 I have. I had the Kraus, the casting was close to pemier class, though at times overall slightly less than the three I have. Kraus conducting is just too sloshy to make the Ring come alive and its not just the recessed sound factor.

I also own none from  Kna, though i am sure among his many recordings , there may be some of value.

Wagner 's ring should not be appraiched ina   finely chisled manner, as some here suggest, the mythical story telling of the work should have this mystical mysteroius mood, but at times of climaxes and cresendos, then is the time to leave the brooding undefined mode and break the clouds to allow bright beams of sunlight.
Takes both modalites of testures.
But Kraus is too sludge like. Not easy to make the low tonal parts to come off as not being cold ,frozen, dragging, takes a   special conductor to do this feat of bringing warmth. Furtwangler was able to bring a  orch such as the Italian to such a   level of effects, no other conductor could manage sucha   challenge. The Italians in Wagner? Yes, and with stunning results, A true magician!
So now you know one of the 3 I have found most successful in this most challenging of operatic music.

Obviously the other 2 are from the Bayreuth.
I made some comments on the 3 rings over at amazon.

Strange how if just one cast member is slightly off in form my interest correspondingly falls off.
There's hardly a  weak part in these 3 Rings, as yet as least I;ve not discovered any, and doubt there is any.

Relatively new to Wagner and will scan the interesting posts in the topic that I;'ve missed since away.,.



  Paulb are you referring to the Furtwangler Ring with RAI or the La Scala? 

The RAI Ring was the first complete Ring Cycle I ever bought and despite its less than stellar sound I believe Furtwangler was able to produce a recording well worth listening to.  In my opinion that RAI recording is more an achievement in conducting than anything else (singing, orchestra playing etc.) Still I do believe it is not ideal for a first timer to the Ring and I do support AC Douglas' recommendation (in his article) that the Solti Ring is the one to get for newbes to Wagner. I still have not reached a conclusion on my end as to which interpretation is most suited to Wagner's music dramas and I am still studying the articles posted by David Zalman (thanks David) from AC Douglas.

  marvin     
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: paulb on January 12, 2008, 09:08:29 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 12, 2008, 08:58:37 AM
  Paulb are you referring to the Furtwangler Ring with RAI or the La Scala? 

The RAI Ring was the first complete Ring Cycle I ever bought and despite its less than stellar sound I believe Furtwangler was able to produce a recording well worth listening to.  In my opinion that RAI recording is more an achievement in conducting than anything else (singing, orchestra playing etc.) Still I do believe it is not ideal for a first timer to the Ring and I do support AC Douglas' recommendation (in his article) that the Solti Ring is the one to get for newbes to Wagner. I still have not reached a conclusion on my end as to which interpretation is most suited to Wagner's music dramas and I am still studying the articles posted by David Zalman (thanks David) from AC Douglas.

  marvin     

Nice post Marvin

yes the RAI, I believe there are others who feel Furtwangler conducts close to ideal, and witha  stunning cast in every role. hard to argue against as being "one of the finest ever Rings".
The other 2 I will hold off mention. You can go to me amazon review. I had to work long and hard to find these, but welll worth the efforts.
Solti for beginners to the Ring? Thats  first.
Either a  recording captures all the nuances of this masterwork or falls short.
Why even consider a   second rate Ring. If for no reason than they are so expensive to waste money on.
Thankfully I avoided the decision of  sinking money in either the Solti of the Bohm,. In spite of all the "you absoluetly must get both paul" I've been advised over the past 5 yrs on various forums.

The Kraus could never work for me as a  Ring experience.

Paul
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 19, 2008, 06:52:53 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 05, 2008, 09:48:07 AM
An excellent choice with that Karajan Meistersinger Sarge...   

Quote from: PSmith08 on January 05, 2008, 10:07:23 AM
Karajan's Meistersinger is the reference recording of the work.

Quote from: Haffner on January 06, 2008, 12:37:25 PM
I don't think it's entirely misleading to expect Karajan's Holländer to supercede each.

Hey, guys, I just ordered Karajan's Meistersinger and Holländer. Total price: €8.40  :o  They are part of this collection  8)

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/1815685?rk=classic&rsk=hitlist


Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on January 19, 2008, 07:51:40 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 19, 2008, 06:52:53 AM
Hey, guys, I just ordered Karajan's Meistersinger and Holländer. Total price: €8.40  :o  They are part of this collection  8)

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/1815685?rk=classic&rsk=hitlist


Sarge



Sarge, my envy deepens...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on January 19, 2008, 10:04:37 AM
Quote from: Haffner on January 19, 2008, 07:51:40 AM


Sarge, my envy deepens...


  So does mine.....

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on January 21, 2008, 11:40:20 AM


  To all Wagner fans:

  I just bought this:

  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513VCG00RAL._SS500_.jpg)

  It's the Knappertsbusch 1962 Live recording from Bayreuth.  I have been looking for an alternative to the Karajan Parsifal which I have owned for many years.  The reviews I read of this Knappertsbusch really impressed me.  They made it sound like it is the "definitive" Parsifal on the market.  I just couldn't resist buying it.  I still haven't opened it yet, which means I can still return for a full refund. 

  Question: is it really as outstanding as the reviews say it is?
 
  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on January 21, 2008, 12:19:26 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 21, 2008, 11:40:20 AM
It's the Knappertsbusch 1962 Live recording from Bayreuth.  I have been looking for an alternative to the Karajan Parsifal which I have owned for many years.  The reviews I read of this Knappertsbusch really impressed me.  They made it sound like it is the "definitive" Parsifal on the market.  I just couldn't resist buying it.  I still haven't opened it yet, which means I can still return for a full refund. 

Question: is it really as outstanding as the reviews say it is?

Short answer: Yes. The 1962 recording of Parsifal is, probably, the finest widely available version. Knappertsbusch had a way with Parsifal that is almost unmatched.

Long answer: I am increasingly of the opinion that, if you want a Knappertsbusch Parsifal, then you need to give the 1964 recording (13 August 1964) some serious consideration. It is Jon Vickers' sole (to my knowledge) recording as Parsifal - N.B., it was out on Melodram before its current, "official" Orfeo incarnation. I find Vickers to be a better Parsifal than Jess Thomas, but there is one still greater - of the modern tenors - but that will come in a bit. The sound is better on the Philips release, and Knappertsbusch's Parsifal did not undergo a radical transformation between 1962 and 1964. That's not entirely fair: 1964 was Knappertsbusch's last season on the Green Hill, and this recording shows a fullness and completeness that comes from a man at the end of his life having devoted much of that life to Wagner's greatest score. The choice between the two is a choice of casting and whether you can deal with good, but still live on-site, mid-1960s mono. I think Vickers was a better Heldentenor than Thomas, and I think Vickers conveyed the role with more nuance and subtlety, but that's a subjective judgment.

There is, as I mentioned, one tenor better suited to Parsifal than either Thomas or Vickers, and that is James King. There are two recordings of King as Parsifal: one with Pierre Boulez from 1970 and one with Rafael Kubelík and the SOBR from 1980. The former is, if you like Boulez, essential listening as it is his best-recorded outing in Parsifal. There is an earlier one on Melodram, but its sound is variable and not worth the trouble. Boulez' Parsifal is not for everyone, and - now as then - his Wagner is pretty controversial in general. I would not recommend it if you're not (1) a Boulez completist, or (2) enamored with his Wagner. I would, however, say that Kubelík's Parsifal is the finest on record. It's a shame that the Arts Archive set is not widely available, except on-line. Kubelík has much the same sense of time and motion as Knappertsbusch, and has a way with the score that seems to suspend time and let the music unfold in its own way. Kubelík seemed willing to let Wagner do, through the music, what Wagner wanted to do. That is to say that his tempo, dynamics, and overall sense of the architecture are so well-considered and so respectful of Wagner that its natural luminosity makes other, more conductor-centric interpretations look like, pace Karajan, gaslight. Kubelík "got" Wagner and he "got" Parsifal. His Lohengrin, also with James King, is another sensitive, intelligent, and unobtrusive approach to the score. The sound, Bayerischen Rundfunks in Munich, is better than good. This is the best studio Parsifal, and it demands consideration for the overall prize.

If Thielemann hadn't had Domingo as the eponymous holy fool, I might discuss that work at length. Orchestrally, it's great. Domingo? Parsifal?

Does not compute.

So, Knappertsbusch '62 is great, I prefer Knappertsbusch '64, but recognize that Kubelík is king of the modern recordings. Open the set, listen to it, and revisit frequently. If you can only have one, make that it. If you can have two, get the Kubelík.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on January 21, 2008, 12:53:28 PM
Quote from: PSmith08 on January 21, 2008, 12:19:26 PM
Short answer: Yes. The 1962 recording of Parsifal is, probably, the finest widely available version. Knappertsbusch had a way with Parsifal that is almost unmatched.

Long answer: I am increasingly of the opinion that, if you want a Knappertsbusch Parsifal, then you need to give the 1964 recording (13 August 1964) some serious consideration. It is Jon Vickers' sole (to my knowledge) recording as Parsifal - N.B., it was out on Melodram before its current, "official" Orfeo incarnation. I find Vickers to be a better Parsifal than Jess Thomas, but there is one still greater - of the modern tenors - but that will come in a bit. The sound is better on the Philips release, and Knappertsbusch's Parsifal did not undergo a radical transformation between 1962 and 1964. That's not entirely fair: 1964 was Knappertsbusch's last season on the Green Hill, and this recording shows a fullness and completeness that comes from a man at the end of his life having devoted much of that life to Wagner's greatest score. The choice between the two is a choice of casting and whether you can deal with good, but still live on-site, mid-1960s mono. I think Vickers was a better Heldentenor than Thomas, and I think Vickers conveyed the role with more nuance and subtlety, but that's a subjective judgment.

There is, as I mentioned, one tenor better suited to Parsifal than either Thomas or Vickers, and that is James King. There are two recordings of King as Parsifal: one with Pierre Boulez from 1970 and one with Rafael Kubelík and the SOBR from 1980. The former is, if you like Boulez, essential listening as it is his best-recorded outing in Parsifal. There is an earlier one on Melodram, but its sound is variable and not worth the trouble. Boulez' Parsifal is not for everyone, and - now as then - his Wagner is pretty controversial in general. I would not recommend it if you're not (1) a Boulez completist, or (2) enamored with his Wagner. I would, however, say that Kubelík's Parsifal is the finest on record. It's a shame that the Arts Archive set is not widely available, except on-line. Kubelík has much the same sense of time and motion as Knappertsbusch, and has a way with the score that seems to suspend time and let the music unfold in its own way. Kubelík seemed willing to let Wagner do, through the music, what Wagner wanted to do. That is to say that his tempo, dynamics, and overall sense of the architecture are so well-considered and so respectful of Wagner that its natural luminosity makes other, more conductor-centric interpretations look like, pace Karajan, gaslight. Kubelík "got" Wagner and he "got" Parsifal. His Lohengrin, also with James King, is another sensitive, intelligent, and unobtrusive approach to the score. The sound, Bayerischen Rundfunks in Munich, is better than good. This is the best studio Parsifal, and it demands consideration for the overall prize.

If Thielemann hadn't had Domingo as the eponymous holy fool, I might discuss that work at length. Orchestrally, it's great. Domingo? Parsifal?

Does not compute.

So, Knappertsbusch '62 is great, I prefer Knappertsbusch '64, but recognize that Kubelík is king of the modern recordings. Open the set, listen to it, and revisit frequently. If you can only have one, make that it. If you can have two, get the Kubelík.

  WOW PSmith08, thank you for that very informative post. You certainly know your Wagner and I am impressed with your exposure to all these recordings.  I will admit that I had not heard of Kubelik's Parsifal.  But seeing as how you rate it so highly I will have to go looking for it (its not amazon that I am sure of!)
  Based on your post I will go ahead and give the Knappertsbusch a listen and see what comes of it, keeping in mind the '64 and Kubelik for the future.

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on January 21, 2008, 01:11:04 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 21, 2008, 12:53:28 PM
  WOW PSmith08, thank you for that very informative post. You certainly know your Wagner and I am impressed with your exposure to all these recordings.  I will admit that I had not heard of Kubelik's Parsifal.  But seeing as how you rate it so highly I will have to go looking for it (its not amazon that I am sure of!)
  Based on your post I will go ahead and give the Knappertsbusch a listen and see what comes of it, keeping in mind the '64 and Kubelik for the future.

Parsifal and Der fliegende Holländer are my non-Ring obsessions in the Wagner oeuvre.

Spend some time with the 1962 Knappertsbusch record. It is one of the great Wagner records, of any score. Indeed, I would say that Knappertsbusch's 1962 Parsifal, Solti's Der Ring des Nibelungen, and Furtwängler's Tristan und Isolde are in a class unto themselves. They are landmarks of the Wagner discography, and among the greatest records produced for various reasons. I forgot to mention his 1951 set, which has Windgassen in the title role. There are those who rate the 1951 record as his best, but - despite the great sense of occasion and its indisputable quality - I really have to go where the sound is good. That means 1962 or 1964, depending on what you mean by "good sound." There are a lot of Knappertsbusch recordings of Parsifal on the market, and - I'll say this - if you get Hans Knappertsbusch in Parsifal at Bayreuth, then you really don't have to worry too much about the product. Sound quality and singer-debate are about all that's left.

Another one, but one I've never warmed as much toward (I prefer Thielemann's to it, but my Thielemann-antipathy, as I noted, has more to do with Domingo) is Barenboim's on Teldec. It is well regarded, but I just haven't fallen in love with it.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on January 21, 2008, 02:14:39 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 21, 2008, 11:40:20 AM

  To all Wagner fans:

  I just bought this:

  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513VCG00RAL._SS500_.jpg)

  It's the Knappertsbusch 1962 Live recording from Bayreuth.  I have been looking for an alternative to the Karajan Parsifal which I have owned for many years.  The reviews I read of this Knappertsbusch really impressed me.  They made it sound like it is the "definitive" Parsifal on the market.  I just couldn't resist buying it.  I still haven't opened it yet, which means I can still return for a full refund. 

  Question: is it really as outstanding as the reviews say it is?
 
  marvin





My fiancee was in the other room saying her Rosary when she heard me making ooOOOoooOOOoooooOOOOOooo sounds. She came out, saying I interrupted her. She was weirded-out that I might be ogling some pretty girl on the internet. But no, I couldn't help but be reduced to drooling when I saw Marvin's Parsifal acquisition. Marvin, that is one extremely cool recording I'm dying to have.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on January 21, 2008, 02:29:16 PM
Quote from: PSmith08 on January 21, 2008, 01:11:04 PM
Parsifal and Der fliegende Holländer are my non-Ring obsessions in the Wagner oeuvre.






Hey, what's your preferred Der fliegende Holländer cd and dvd? Forgive me if you've been asked one too many times.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on January 21, 2008, 05:02:09 PM
Quote from: Haffner on January 21, 2008, 02:29:16 PM
Hey, what's your preferred Der fliegende Holländer cd and dvd? Forgive me if you've been asked one too many times.

I'll go to the DVD options first, since those are - shall we say - less complicated. There are two versions available, one from Bayreuth using Harry Kupfer's 1978 production, though I think it was filmed in 1985. This is an unconventional version, since - rather than playing it straight - Senta is the main character and the story unfolds from her point-of-view. The production is strange, though it isn't as far-out as Kupfer's Ring. Some clips are about on the mighty Interweb if you're so inclined. Another, which I haven't seen, is a production conducted by Leif Segerstam. I can't comment, but it's an option. The Kupfer version would seem to be your best bet, if you can deal with Harry Kupfer.

As to CDs, this is a bit thornier. The long-time reference is Otto Klemperer's EMI set (1968). It has Theo Adam as the Holländer, Anja Silja as Senta, Martti Talvela as Daland, and Ernst Kozub as Erik. It is a standard recommendation for a reason. This set (and Klemperer's overtures-and-preludes set) show that Klemperer did have some affinity for Wagner. It is somewhat deliberate as far as the style goes, running probably fifteen minutes longer than some of his competitors, but it's Klemperer in 1968. You're not going to get Pierre Boulez' speed, but you do get a sort of grandeur and power to the score that other recordings don't necessarily have.

Karl Böhm's 1971 is back on the market at budget price. If you like Böhm's Wagner and can deal with Gwyneth Jones, then you're probably safe plunking down fifteen or twenty bucks and giving it a spin. It has that same sort of nervous tension and speed that Böhm's Ring and Tristan have. It also has the orchestral and architectural transparency that Böhm could bring to the table. Holländer is rarely a conductor's experimenting ground, and Böhm does what one would expect him to do with Wagner. The balances, though, strike me as a little weird with this one. The choruses - especially the Norwegian sailors' chorus - seem a little thin. I almost want to say that the mikes are too close, but it doesn't seem like that. That could just be me. The Böhm set has been another well-regarded and highly recommended version, like his Ring and Tristan. It's a matter of choice.

Speaking of the choruses - there are several in Holländer of which I am very fond - Georg Solti's 1976 recording is one that gets short shrift, but has really stellar choral work and an orchestral contribution that is as powerful and muscular as one could want. Indeed, Solti's Holländer holds a special spot with me, as it was my first Wagner record. I don't think it's even on the market anymore, though a used recording could be found at a reasonable price. Amazon's sellers don't have it at anything approaching that, but other options might be available. It doesn't have the greatest cast, and I am not entirely sure how well the Chicago Symphony Orchestra handles the early Wagnerian idiom - though they bring power in spades. Solti is a good second or third choice, if you want to track it down, for the choral contribution, but I don't know how well it would serve as one's only recording.

I'll skip Levine and Barenboim, and say that they are reasonable choices, but there are better.

Like the two I would recommend equally and interchangeably, depending on what you want. Testament has just rereleased Joseph Keilberth's 1955 Bayreuth recording, which had been put out before in mono sound, in pretty good stereo. Apparently Decca recorded more than just that Ring at the '55 Festspiele. Keilberth and Knappertsbusch switched off the Holländer shows that year, and Melodram has the Knappertsbusch recording available, though I've never listened to it. Keilberth has the best Holländer of the age in Hermann Uhde, Astrid Varnay as Senta, and Ludwig Weber as Daland. That is the dream cast. Uhde is the only bass-baritone I have heard in the role (with perhaps one exception) that manages to convey the angst and torment of the Holländer effectively. Others come off as flat, boring, or even - and this a problem - almost genial. Uhde really conveyed that part, and was a generally great Wagnerian bass-baritone. His Gunther for Knappertsbusch in Götterdämmerung (1956) is a reference performance. Astrid Varnay was, really, one of the great Wagnerian sopranos. She had the bad luck to have to compete with Flagstad and Nilsson, but she was really fine. This recording is, in my mind, the one to get if you can only have just one.

Now, there is a modern competitor in Woldemar Nelsson's 1985 recording, back out as part of Philips' "Classic Opera" series. This is the record to go with the Kupfer video I mentioned above. The sound is better than Keilberth's, though thirty years of stereo technology should make that an assumed quantity. Simon Estes' Holländer comes very close, to my ears, to Uhde's supremely tormented portrayal. This is not James Morris. There is a lot of angst and torment there. Estes' voice can be very bleak, too, but I think Uhde has the slight edge in broadcasting gloom. Lisbeth Balslev's Senta is not Astrid Varnay's version, but it is miles ahead of Gwyneth's for Böhm. Matti Salminen's Daland is not without its charms. Indeed, of the modern recordings, Nelsson's is really the first recourse. Of them all, I have to give it to Keilberth. His style, his cast, and his general approach to Wagner make that set (Testament, mind you, not the Teldec release of some years back) without equal and only few competitors.

That is far more than I had intended to say.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on January 21, 2008, 06:38:56 PM
Does Parsifal have to be a CD or can you accept a DVD?

Of the many Parsifals I have listened to and watched, one has worked it's way to the top, the one performed at the Baden-Baden opera house and conducted by Kent Nagano. The stunning direction is by Nikolaus Lehnhoff, a director who believes in stark, unembellished sets. No, no concept advocate, don't frown. Matti Salminen is for me the best Gurnemanz and of course Waltraud Meier owns the Kundry role. Lehnhoff gives Amfortas a chance to get off his usual stretcher, an opportunity Thomas Hampson uses to move about while singing as only he can.

Give it a try!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on January 21, 2008, 06:48:56 PM
Quote from: uffeviking on January 21, 2008, 06:38:56 PM
Does Parsifal have to be a CD or can you accept a DVD?

Of the many Parsifals I have listened to and watched, one has worked it's way to the top, the one performed at the Baden-Baden opera house and conducted by Kent Nagano. The stunning direction is by Nikolaus Lehnhoff, a director who believes in stark, unembellished sets. No, no concept advocate, don't frown. Matti Salminen is for me the best Gurnemanz and of course Waltraud Meier owns the Kundry role. Lehnhoff gives Amfortas a chance to get off his usual stretcher, an opportunity Thomas Hampson uses to move about while singing as only he can.

Give it a try!

I recall Angela Merkel noted to the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung that she preferred Lehnhoff's Parsifal to the concurrent joke by Christoph Schlingensief at Bayreuth. For obvious reasons, some folks in the United States rebroadcast her remarks.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: M forever on January 21, 2008, 07:18:18 PM
Quote from: PSmith08 on January 21, 2008, 12:19:26 PM
If Thielemann hadn't had Domingo as the eponymous holy fool, I might discuss that work at length. Orchestrally, it's great. Domingo? Parsifal?

Does not compute.

Really not? Or could that be a foregone conclusion: "Italian singer=can't sing Wagner"? Just asking, I haven't heard the recording.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on January 21, 2008, 07:46:01 PM
Quote from: M forever on January 21, 2008, 07:18:18 PM
Really not? Or could that be a foregone conclusion: "Italian singer=can't sing Wagner"? Just asking, I haven't heard the recording.

I don't think that a Spanish singer who has made quite a name for himself in the major Italian repertoire (though he has a pretty big set of roles) is necessarily precluded from singing Wagner. I believe he did Lohengrin in 1968, so he was doing Wagner forty years ago. My issues with Domingo in Parsifal are really two-fold. First, he was 65 years old when he did those Vienna shows. I am sorry, but hearing the Flower-Maidens try to seduce Parsifal, singing "Komm, holder Knabe" strikes me as supremely silly when the "holder Knabe" is pushing 70 years old. I can suspend my disbelief, but only so far before I have to say, "This ain't right." Domingo's voice has held up pretty well, but this isn't the Domingo of Giulini's Rigoletto or Muti's Aida. As to my second issue, I don't think that Domingo is now or ever was a Heldentenor. I would say that he was probably a strong contender for the greatest lyric tenor of his generation. I personally prefer Peter Schreier, but that's more of an interpretation thing. It seems to me that, as he ages and his tone darkens a little bit, he's moving into the high-power Heldentenor roles, like Siegmund and Parsifal; that does not, however, mean that he is entirely suited to them. Indeed, I would say that he would make a fine Lohengrin or Tannhäuser, in the former role likely giving Sándor Kónya a very serious run for his money. For the Ring roles and Parsifal, though, a slightly darkened lyric voice won't cut it.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: M forever on January 21, 2008, 07:58:49 PM
Thanks for elaborating! BTW, I always thought that Domingo was Mexican, but I looked it up and found he was actually born in Spain. We learn new things every day. But I think you understood that I meant someone who is mostly associated with Italian repertoire and singing style.

Quote from: PSmith08 on January 21, 2008, 07:46:01 PM
My issues with Domingo in Parsifal are really two-fold. First, he was 65 years old when he did those Vienna shows. I am sorry, but hearing the Flower-Maidens try to seduce Parsifal, singing "Komm, holder Knabe" strikes me as supremely silly when the "holder Knabe" is pushing 70 years old.

Yes, that is a little silly. Maybe they should have sung "holder Knacker"* instead.




*"Knacker", literally "cracker", is a common demeaning expression for old people in German, probably on account of their joints cracking.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on January 21, 2008, 08:32:19 PM
Quote from: M forever on January 21, 2008, 07:58:49 PM
Thanks for elaborating! BTW, I always thought that Domingo was Mexican, but I looked it up and found he was actually born in Spain. We learn new things every day. But I think you understood that I meant someone who is mostly associated with Italian repertoire and singing style.

I think he had some family in Mexico, who died in the 1985 Mexico City earthquake.

QuoteYes, that is a little silly. Maybe they should have sung "holder Knacker"* instead.

The recording was made over a live run at the Staatsoper in 2005, which would make him only 64 when he appeared. My mistake. In the booklet, there are some production photos, and it is a bit strange to see an obviously middle-aged man with gray hair in the part. That is a little strange for a young hero. A concert performance, maybe even with the Münchner Philharmoniker, would have made more sense. Still, given Domingo's voice, I think that there are more profitable Wagner roles available. Some, even, with less competition.

Quote*"Knacker", literally "cracker", is a common demeaning expression for old people in German, probably on account of their joints cracking.

I didn't know that. I learned something new today.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: M forever on January 21, 2008, 08:40:57 PM
Quote from: PSmith08 on January 21, 2008, 08:32:19 PM
A concert performance, maybe even with the Münchner Philharmoniker, would have made more sense.

Why "even"?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on January 21, 2008, 09:24:29 PM
Quote from: M forever on January 21, 2008, 08:40:57 PM
Why "even"?

I probably used "even" in the sense of the OED definition 9(b), "Attached to a word or clause expressing time, manner, place, or any attendant circumstance." Definition 9 is, in full, "Intimating that the sentence expresses an extreme case of a more general proposition implied (= Fr. même). Prefixed (in later use often parenthetically postfixed) to the particular word, phrase, or clause, on which the extreme character of the statement or supposition depends." So, then, the concert performance would be the general proposition, and the concert performance with the MP would be the manner in which the general proposition would be executed.

I could get really slippery and say that I was using an archaism pursuant to OED def. 8, "Prefixed to a subject, object, or predicate, or to the expression of a qualifying circumstance, to emphasize its identity. Obs. exc. arch. Also in 16-17th c. (hence still arch. after Bible use) serving to introduce an epexegesis; = 'namely', 'that is to say'."

Or, we could just agree that I used "even" in the sense that such an arrangement would be highly non-trivial, and pursuant to OED def. 9(c).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 21, 2008, 09:48:59 PM
Quote from: M forever on January 21, 2008, 07:58:49 PM
*"Knacker", literally "cracker", is a common demeaning expression for old people in German, probably on account of their joints cracking.

In Dutch it's the same:  (oude) 'knakker'. The English would say 'old geezer' or 'old fart'.

Johan
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sarastro on January 21, 2008, 09:51:58 PM
Domingo was born in Spain, and moved to Mexico at age 8 with his family, who ran a zarzuela company.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: M forever on January 22, 2008, 01:28:45 AM
Quote from: PSmith08 on January 21, 2008, 09:24:29 PM
I probably used "even" in the sense of the OED definition 9(b), "Attached to a word or clause expressing time, manner, place, or any attendant circumstance." Definition 9 is, in full, "Intimating that the sentence expresses an extreme case of a more general proposition implied (= Fr. même). Prefixed (in later use often parenthetically postfixed) to the particular word, phrase, or clause, on which the extreme character of the statement or supposition depends." So, then, the concert performance would be the general proposition, and the concert performance with the MP would be the manner in which the general proposition would be executed.

I could get really slippery and say that I was using an archaism pursuant to OED def. 8, "Prefixed to a subject, object, or predicate, or to the expression of a qualifying circumstance, to emphasize its identity. Obs. exc. arch. Also in 16-17th c. (hence still arch. after Bible use) serving to introduce an epexegesis; = ‘namely’, ‘that is to say’."

Or, we could just agree that I used "even" in the sense that such an arrangement would be highly non-trivial, and pursuant to OED def. 9(c).

Huh?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on January 22, 2008, 05:11:01 AM
Quote from: Haffner on January 21, 2008, 02:14:39 PM




My fiancee was in the other room saying her Rosary when she heard me making ooOOOoooOOOoooooOOOOOooo sounds. She came out, saying I interrupted her. She was weirded-out that I might be ogling some pretty girl on the internet. But no, I couldn't help but be reduced to drooling when I saw Marvin's Parsifal acquisition. Marvin, that is one extremely cool recording I'm dying to have.

  Haffner, I am so sorry to have created a "potential" problem with your loved one- not that Wagner's music could ever replace the love of a woman (could he??), but yes you might want to jot this recording down as well as the '64 Knapp (read PSmith08's review) as future purchases.  I must admit that I discovered this 1962 recording by accident.  I really did not need another Parsifal (I have Karajan's recording as well as the Levine DVD and have seen countless others)  but this 1962 Knapp Parsifal was screaming: Buy me!! Buy me!! I just couldn't resist.  Tonight I shall listen to it.

  marvin   
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on January 22, 2008, 05:29:41 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 22, 2008, 05:11:01 AM
  Haffner, I am so sorry to have created a "potential" problem with your loved one- not that Wagner's music could ever replace the love of a woman (could he??), but yes you might want to jot this recording down as well as the '64 Knapp (read PSmith08's review) as future purchases.  I must admit that I discovered this 1962 recording by accident.  I really did not need another Parsifal (I have Karajan's recording as well as the Levine DVD and have seen countless others)  but this 1962 Knapp Parsifal was screaming: Buy me!! Buy me!! I just couldn't resist.  Tonight I shall listen to it.

  marvin   

I think Wagner wrote a short romp about what happens when someone forswears love for material gain.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 22, 2008, 05:46:33 AM
Quote from: PSmith08 on January 22, 2008, 05:29:41 AM
I think Wagner wrote a short romp about what happens when someone forswears love for material gain.

I think I know it. A delightful miniature.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on January 22, 2008, 05:49:09 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on January 22, 2008, 05:46:33 AM
I think I know it. A delightful miniature.

  Yes 14+ hours that seem to go by in minutes  ;).

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on January 22, 2008, 05:52:20 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on January 22, 2008, 05:46:33 AM
I think I know it. A delightful miniature.

Really a marvel of economy of form it is. Indeed, only rarely has someone said so much so briefly.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: longears on January 22, 2008, 05:59:50 AM
Quote from: PSmith08 on January 22, 2008, 05:29:41 AM
I think Wagner wrote a short romp about what happens when someone forswears love for material gain.
Quote from: Jezetha on January 22, 2008, 05:46:33 AM
I think I know it. A delightful miniature.
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 22, 2008, 05:49:09 AM
  Yes 14+ hours that seem to go by in minutes  ;).
Quote from: PSmith08 on January 22, 2008, 05:52:20 AM
Really a marvel of economy of form it is. Indeed, only rarely has someone said so much so briefly.

I see I'm not the only one here who loves irony. Y'all give the lie to the common belief that Wagnereenies have no sense of humor!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 22, 2008, 06:18:28 AM
Quote from: longears on January 22, 2008, 05:59:50 AM
I see I'm not the only one here who loves irony. Y'all give the lie to the common belief that Wagnereenies have no sense of humor!

Wagner's first wife Minna had a parrot she had trained to say 'Richard Wagner is a bad man! Richard Wagner is a bad man!'

Johan
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on January 22, 2008, 06:29:45 AM
Quote from: longears on January 22, 2008, 05:59:50 AM
I see I'm not the only one here who loves irony. Y'all give the lie to the common belief that Wagnereenies have no sense of humor!

What? Who's kidding? Wagnerites are a dour lot, given to much solemn pontification and angry disputation over orchestral transparency and appropriate tempo for, oh say, the finale of Das Rheingold.

Indeed, Wagner is what happens to you if you don't play sports as a child.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 22, 2008, 06:34:53 AM
Quote from: PSmith08 on January 22, 2008, 06:29:45 AM

Wagner is what happens to you if you don't play sports as a child.

How did you know?!  ???
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on January 22, 2008, 06:42:28 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on January 22, 2008, 06:34:53 AM
How did you know?!  ???

J'accuse! (Myself, too)

Wagner requires a personality that is rarely forged on the baseball diamond, gridiron, or pitch.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 22, 2008, 07:00:32 AM
Quote from: PSmith08 on January 22, 2008, 06:42:28 AM
J'accuse! (Myself, too)

Wagner requires a personality that is rarely forged on the baseball diamond, gridiron, or pitch.

But what about all those cheerleaders in Parsifal, Second Act?

But serious - you do need a certain introspection to like Wagner (although he didn't compose 'loner's music', as a fellow member of the Havergal Brian Society once said about Brian, more or less correctly...)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sean on January 22, 2008, 07:18:52 AM
Any thoughts on Klingsor's dark magic that is shattered by Kundry's kiss, ie Parsifal's carnal knowledge? Wagner and Shakespeare are both interested in love and foolishness- eg Parsifal and Siegfried(?) and R&J/ MSMD.

The dark magic is the state of mind of the young misguided man who doesn't see the common sense, non-rational means of proceeding with a girl... Even at 42 Wagner the great lover said he'd never had real love, and Shakespeare was still writing about wanting to be set free from Prospero's books at the end of his career.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on January 22, 2008, 07:20:43 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 22, 2008, 05:49:09 AM
  Yes 14+ hours that seem to go by in minutes  ;).

  marvin

  Am I the only person here who feels that the Ring isn't long enough  :o??  And yes you do need to have a certain introspection to like Wagner.  That said Wagner is not for the faint hearted. I like to think of him as the Alpha Male of composers- in short that guy's music is pure testosterone!!  If you're looking for "dainty" tunes Wagner ain't your man!!

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on January 22, 2008, 07:24:33 AM
Quote from: PSmith08 on January 22, 2008, 06:42:28 AM
J'accuse! (Myself, too)

Wagner requires a personality that is rarely forged on the baseball diamond, gridiron, or pitch.

  Not so sure about that PSmith08, I ski (steep black runs), play tennis and soccer. The First Act of Siegfried (such powerful music can be very inspiring) gives me an adrenaline rush unlike any other!

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sean on January 22, 2008, 07:28:22 AM
Wagner is extraordinarily masculine music- put it on before you take your girl out, murderously decisive, thrusting, ruthless, intuitive, dark, domineering. I haven't heard the notion that the Ring is too short before, but the libretto is basically weird and laconic, as all his librettos, suggesting so much more.

By the way Marvin I think you were asking about the Bach cantatas a while back and whether you'd got the measure of them or not. Well I do not think they're invested with Bach's greastest thought- they're good but not great music, as you sensed to begin with...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on January 22, 2008, 07:35:03 AM
Quote from: Sean on January 22, 2008, 07:28:22 AM

By the way Marvin I think you were asking about the Bach cantatas a while back and whether you'd got the measure of them or not. Well I do not think they're invested with Bach's greastest thought- they're good but not great music, as you sensed to begin with...

  Yes Sean, I gave up on the cantatas.  I have about 30 of them, the most popular favorite  ones and worst yet they are expensive to collect.  I'd much rather save money and buy the Karajan Ring for example than more cantatas.

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sean on January 22, 2008, 07:37:55 AM
Marv, I notice you have the Knappertzbusch Parsifal, I've heard it, along with the Levine and Jurowski live, but I know it from the Karajan, which is entirely in a class of its own.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 22, 2008, 07:39:57 AM
Quote from: Sean on January 22, 2008, 07:28:22 AM
By the way Marvin I think you were asking about the Bach cantatas a while back and whether you'd got the measure of them or not. Well I do not think they're invested with Bach's greastest thought- they're good but not great music, as you sensed to begin with...

Well, I do think they're invested with some of Bach's greatest thought. Not all of them, but many, and not necessarily the so-called "popular" ones. And I've heard all 200 of them, not just the 30 Marvin knows and has apparently "given up" on. I spent $240 USD for the entire Harnoncourt/Leonhardt set from Berkshire Outlet, or about $4 a CD, and no purchase of mine was ever better. At their finest they're great and not just good music, no matter what Marvin sensed to begin with.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sean on January 22, 2008, 07:55:33 AM
That's a good price- I'll be having a look on Amazon.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 22, 2008, 08:06:07 AM
Quote from: Sean on January 22, 2008, 07:55:33 AM
That's a good price- I'll be having a look on Amazon.

Why bother, if you're so sure they're not such great music? Those of us not so confident of our personal opinions can find the 60-CD set new at US Amazon for under $190.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on January 22, 2008, 09:00:39 AM
Quote from: Sean on January 22, 2008, 07:37:55 AM
Marv, I notice you have the Knappertzbusch Parsifal, I've heard it, along with the Levine and Jurowski live,

Sean, was this Vladimir Jurowski? And where did you see it live? Do you know if it is available on CD or DVD? I couldn't find any record of him conducting any Wagner. And you are too young to have attended live performances by Vladimir's father!  :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on January 22, 2008, 09:05:53 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on January 22, 2008, 07:39:57 AM
Well, I do think they're invested with some of Bach's greatest thought. Not all of them, but many, and not necessarily the so-called "popular" ones. And I've heard all 200 of them, not just the 30 Marvin knows and has apparently "given up" on. I spent $240 USD for the entire Harnoncourt/Leonhardt set from Berkshire Outlet, or about $4 a CD, and no purchase of mine was ever better. At their finest they're great and not just good music, no matter what Marvin sensed to begin with.

I have my doubts about the musical sense of anyone who is not moved by the Bach cantatas at some level or another. Listening to BWV 34, "O ewiges Feuer, o Ursprung der Liebe," for example, and not seeing a genius at work is worrisome. No, Bach's cantatas are not "invested with Bach's greatest thought." They are Bach's greatest thought. A project that massive, that wide-ranging, cannot be but one of the greatest monuments to religion in the Western tradition.

Wagner was a great intellect, but even he must have pause when confronted with Bach. I once argued that all music after Bach is either an agreement with or a response to that which he accomplished. I'm not sure that I wouldn't argue as much today.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 22, 2008, 09:09:53 AM
Quote from: PSmith08 on January 22, 2008, 09:05:53 AM
I have my doubts about the musical sense of anyone who is not moved by the Bach cantatas at some level or another. Listening to BWV 34, "O ewiges Feuer, o Ursprung der Liebe," for example, and not seeing a genius at work is worrisome. No, Bach's cantatas are not "invested with Bach's greatest thought." They are Bach's greatest thought. A project that massive, that wide-ranging, cannot be but one of the greatest monuments to religion in the Western tradition.

Absolutely. Over a period of about 4 months, I went through the entire 60-CD set of sacred cantatas in BWV sequence, and the experience was revelatory. Any number of previously unknown treasures.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on January 22, 2008, 09:57:19 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on January 22, 2008, 09:09:53 AM
Absolutely. Over a period of about 4 months, I went through the entire 60-CD set of sacred cantatas in BWV sequence, and the experience was revelatory. Any number of previously unknown treasures.

  Gentlemen...please...this is a thread about Wagner not Bach's cantatas.  Let's stick to discussing Wagner shall we!

  marvin 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sean on January 22, 2008, 09:59:37 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on January 22, 2008, 09:00:39 AM
Sean, was this Vladimir Jurowski? And where did you see it live? Do you know if it is available on CD or DVD? I couldn't find any record of him conducting any Wagner. And you are too young to have attended live performances by Vladimir's father!  :)

Uffe, I must admit I'm not absolutely sure it was Jurowski and I did a quick search before. I saw the Welsh National Opera production in 2003 I think it was, with Sara Fulgoni as a fantastic Kundry, in very imaginative and very serious settings.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 22, 2008, 10:05:15 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 22, 2008, 09:57:19 AM
  Gentlemen...please...this is a thread about Wagner not Bach's cantatas.  Let's stick to discussing Wagner shall we!

  marvin 

I didn't bring it up. But having seen the comment, I wasn't going to let it go unanswered.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on January 22, 2008, 12:20:55 PM
Quote from: Sforzando on January 22, 2008, 10:05:15 AM
I didn't bring it up. But having seen the comment, I wasn't going to let it go unanswered.

Zing.

In any event, let's try discussing Meistersinger without something more than a passing reference to Bach.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Don on January 22, 2008, 12:31:02 PM
Quote from: PSmith08 on January 22, 2008, 12:20:55 PM
Zing.

In any event, let's try discussing Meistersinger without something more than a passing reference to Bach.

Are you talking about a long pass or a short pass?  It's good to know the parameters.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on January 22, 2008, 12:44:15 PM
Quote from: Don on January 22, 2008, 12:31:02 PM
Are you talking about a long pass or a short pass?  It's good to know the parameters.

Well, if the defense is particularly skilled at stopping the run, I'd say a screen pass with the tight end running around to receive and get at least the conversion. If we can fake the defense out well enough, I'd say TD.

I remember a game this year where the opponent ran the screen often enough to get us expecting it and defending appropriately, only to go for the long pass. That game was won on a last-second field goal by a kicker making his collegiate debut. We were tied 21-21, and it looked like we were going to run it into OT and salvage the situation there. The opponent had an incredible drive, and got them within a long FG range. The guy hit it. My stomach hit the deck when I saw it go through the uprights. 24-21.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Don on January 22, 2008, 12:53:08 PM
Quote from: PSmith08 on January 22, 2008, 12:44:15 PM
Well, if the defense is particularly skilled at stopping the run, I'd say a screen pass with the tight end running around to receive and get at least the conversion. If we can fake the defense out well enough, I'd say TD.

I remember a game this year where the opponent ran the screen often enough to get us expecting it and defending appropriately, only to go for the long pass. That game was won on a last-second field goal by a kicker making his collegiate debut. We were tied 21-21, and it looked like we were going to run it into OT and salvage the situation there. The opponent had an incredible drive, and got them within a long FG range. The guy hit it. My stomach hit the deck when I saw it go through the uprights. 24-21.

My sympathies.  Any chance that rookie might switch to your college?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on January 22, 2008, 12:59:15 PM
Quote from: Don on January 22, 2008, 12:53:08 PM
My sympathies.  Any chance that rookie might switch to your college?

Not likely. It was the big rivalry game, so there was more to it than just the game. I don't know if I can recall much Wabash-DePauw transferring in either direction: it seems that once you've chosen, you're staying put.

Wittenberg had a kicker that seemed like he had a cannon for a leg. If we were stealing kickers, then that's the guy I'd want. He was good. Stuff I wouldn't have thought he would have an easy time with looked real smooth. Accurate, too.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Don on January 22, 2008, 01:17:01 PM
Isn't anyone going to say that this thread is about Wagner, not football?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 22, 2008, 01:26:10 PM
This thread is about Wagner, not football!  $:)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on January 22, 2008, 01:32:50 PM
Quote from: PSmith08 on January 22, 2008, 12:20:55 PM
Zing.

In any event, let's try discussing Meistersinger without something more than a passing reference to Bach.

 Well one of the many highlights of Die Meistersinger is the transition from the overture to the vocal part of the opera.  That overture is wonderfull and after roughly 10 min it reaches a climax and suddenly ends, almost unexpectedly and we find ourselves in a church listening to the chorus of the congregation singing the service's final choral, " Da zu dir der Heiland kam"- "When the Saviour came to thee", the music is so gloriously "holy" I am sure J.S Bach would have approved of it! How's that for "without something more" than a passing reference to J.S. Bach PSmith08?

 marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Don on January 22, 2008, 01:46:12 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on January 22, 2008, 01:26:10 PM
This thread is about Wagner, not football!  $:)

Thanks, I needed that.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on January 22, 2008, 02:48:54 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 22, 2008, 01:32:50 PM
  Well one of the many highlights of Die Meistersinger is the transition from the overture to the vocal part of the opera.  That overture is wonderfull and after roughly 10 min it reaches a climax and suddenly ends, almost unexpectedly and we find ourselves in a church listening to the chorus of the congregation singing the service's final choral, " Da zu dir der Heiland kam"- "When the Saviour came to thee", the music is so gloriously "holy" I am sure J.S Bach would have approved of it! How's that for "without something more" than a passing reference to J.S. Bach PSmith08?

Very nearly satisfactory. Of course, a more serious approach would be to discuss the contrapuntal nature of the overture, and Wagner's masterful balancing of the various orchestral voices - so masterful, indeed, that they blend into a seamless orchestral whole. At the risk of implying that Bach is "der Anfang und das Ende" of counterpoint and harmony, I would say that whole prelude owes an enormous stylistic debt to Bach.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bhodges on January 25, 2008, 06:10:11 AM
Looking forward to seeing Tristan und Isolde at the Met in March, with the following cast.  It might be my favorite Wagner opera.

Conductor: James Levine
Isolde: Deborah Voigt
Brangäne: Michelle DeYoung
Tristan: Ben Heppner
Kurwenal: Eike Wilm Schulte
King Marke: Matti Salminen

I love this production, which I've seen once before.  (Not everyone agrees, as these Amazon comments on the 2004 DVD (http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Tristan-Dalayman-Ketelsen-Metropolitan/dp/B0000CGV0P/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1201273450&sr=8-1) show.)  But if anything this cast is even better (IMHO) than the one on the DVD.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Morigan on January 25, 2008, 08:33:56 AM
Quote from: bhodges on January 25, 2008, 06:10:11 AM
Looking forward to seeing Tristan und Isolde at the Met in March, with the following cast.  It might be my favorite Wagner opera.

Conductor: James Levine
Isolde: Deborah Voigt
Brangäne: Michelle DeYoung
Tristan: Ben Heppner
Kurwenal: Eike Wilm Schulte
King Marke: Matti Salminen

I love this production, which I've seen once before.  (Not everyone agrees, as these Amazon comments on the 2004 DVD (http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Tristan-Dalayman-Ketelsen-Metropolitan/dp/B0000CGV0P/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1201273450&sr=8-1) show.)  But if anything this cast is even better (IMHO) than the one on the DVD.

--Bruce

Oh dear, the reviews are very mixed! And some of them are absolutely mean :

"Here we have some of the most romantic music ever written, and we have a portly Tristan singing to a "morbidly obese" woman for over 3 hours."
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bhodges on January 25, 2008, 08:40:07 AM
Yes, when Eaglen and Heppner first did it, there were a number of snide remarks.  (There was also a rather unflattering photo in the paper, with the two of them and a large rock, making all three look pretty much the same.)

I suspect it may be much better with Voigt, although vocally I had no problem with Eaglen. 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on January 25, 2008, 10:51:17 AM
Quote from: bhodges on January 25, 2008, 08:40:07 AM
Yes, when Eaglen and Heppner first did it, there were a number of snide remarks.  (There was also a rather unflattering photo in the paper, with the two of them and a large rock, making all three look pretty much the same.)

--Bruce

I was there when they first did it, in Seattle in 1998, directed by Francesca Zambello, and I was moved to tears! I don't remember a 'rock', but I do remember how those two singers did their acting with their voices. Maybe Heppner has changed, and I understand, so did Eaglan - have not seen her live since then - ; but the performance had been praised universally. Yes universally, because a great number of visitors were from overseas, both East and West.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on January 25, 2008, 01:25:00 PM
Anne, your Seattle friend probably also told you this new production was an event, weeks, even months before the performance. Seattle's General Director, Speight Jenkins discovered Eaglen during one of his talent hunting trips in England and brought her to Seattle, where she was selected Seattle Opera's Artist of the Year for her performance of Norma. She is Seattle's OWN, lives there, got married there and is a welcome guest in every Seattle school from Kindergarten to the Universities, and a treasured customer of the fishmongers and greengrocers at the famous Pike Street Public Market!

She is obese? Look around your supermarket next time you are there and see all the obese females pushing their carts around. And they can't even sing!  :P
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 25, 2008, 01:37:10 PM
You might like to know that it was the Havergal Brian Society that sponsored Jane Eaglen's first recital - in the Purcell Room on the (London) South Bank, where she sang songs of, among others, Havergal Brian. That was on 1 November 1985. I still have the booklet somewhere.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on January 25, 2008, 02:00:50 PM
(http://www.musicalpointers.co.uk/images/The%20Ring%20Disc.jpg)

I've just received this CD-Rom and I'm having my first look atit.

Its quite amazing.

The complete cycle on one disc. Solti's famous version.

It has a running commentary, complete score and libretto in both german and english.

The commentary is especially interesting.

This looks to be a fabulous tool for delving deeper into the Ring :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: M forever on January 25, 2008, 02:10:15 PM
Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on January 25, 2008, 02:00:50 PM
The complete cycle on one disc. Solti's famous version.

In mono. Just as acoustical reference material.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on January 25, 2008, 02:31:02 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on January 25, 2008, 01:37:10 PM
You might like to know that it was the Havergal Brian Society that sponsored Jane Eaglen's first recital - in the Purcell Room on the (London) South Bank, where she sang songs of, among others, Havergal Brian. That was on 1 November 1985. I still have the booklet somewhere.

Uffeviking, Seattle and the rest of the great-voice-appreciating world are sincerely grateful to the Havergal Brian Society!

Jezetha, you recommend I should get acquainted with Brian's work? Never heard a note of his!  :-[
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 25, 2008, 02:51:12 PM
Quote from: uffeviking on January 25, 2008, 02:31:02 PM
Jezetha, you recommend I should get acquainted with Brian's work? Never heard a note of his!  :-[

Uffeviking, there are billions of people who haven't heard a single Brianic note, so don't feel ashamed... Do I recommened him? Yes, of course! If you like Wagner, the grandiose, an inventive use of the orchestra and massed choral forces, try Brian's 'Gothic' Symphony, on Naxos. And see what you make of it... It is his most ambitious work, written between 1919 and 1927 (Brian lived from 1876 to 1972).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on February 01, 2008, 03:57:49 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 22, 2008, 07:20:43 AM
  Am I the only person here who feels that the Ring isn't long enough  :o??   marvin





Yes: my favorite character, Wotan, was out of the action way too early!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on February 01, 2008, 04:02:16 PM
Quote from: Sean on January 22, 2008, 07:28:22 AM
Wagner is extraordinarily masculine music- put it on before you take your girl out, murderously decisive, thrusting, ruthless, intuitive, dark, domineering.


I agree. My girl is mainly into Grieg, Beethoven, Mozart...Wagner is just too manly for her. This might seem really weird, so please forgive, but Wagner has the same effect on her as do heavy metal bands like Manowar and Krisiun: too much bass/baritone and testosterone!

Quote from: Sean on January 22, 2008, 07:37:55 AM
Marv, I notice you have the Knappertzbusch Parsifal, I've heard it, along with the Levine and Jurowski live, but I know it from the Karajan, which is entirely in a class of its own.



How good is the Levine? I've been eyeing it recently. I actually liked alot of his Ring...though it's hard to listen to some of it after the Solti.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on February 02, 2008, 07:57:28 AM
In about half an hour Die Walküre from the Met will be on your NPR stations!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on February 02, 2008, 09:18:10 AM
Are you listening? Your NPR station does not carry it? Try http://www.king.org/programming/opera/index.aspx#met and here is the cast:

Bass James Morris (one of the definitive Wotans of our time), soprano Lisa Gasteen (Bruennhilde), tenor Clifton Forbis (Siegmund), soprano Deborah Voigt (Sieglinde), and bass Mikhail Petrenko (Hunding) head this Metropolitan Opera cast, with Lorin Maazel as the conductor.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sean on February 02, 2008, 11:53:00 AM
Hi Haffner

QuoteHow good is the Levine? I've been eyeing it recently. I actually liked alot of his Ring...though it's hard to listen to some of it after the Solti.

Levine's a committed Wagnerian, often shedding new light and colour, though without the most overarching mind to fully contain the great paragraphs. His Good Friday peroration music in Parsifal is superb, finding more strangeness and mystery in the fabulous harmonies than Karajan.

The Karajan otherwise though is entirely in a class of its own with no serious competitors: one of the greatest of opera recordings.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 02, 2008, 12:09:02 PM
Quote from: Sean on February 02, 2008, 11:53:00 AM
Hi Haffner

Levine's a committed Wagnerian, often shedding new light and colour, though without the most overarching mind to fully contain the great paragraphs. His Good Friday peroration music in Parsifal is superb, finding more strangeness and mystery in the fabulous harmonies than Karajan.

The Karajan otherwise though is entirely in a class of its own with no serious competitors: one of the greatest of opera recordings.

I love Karajan's Parsifal, too. But don't you think his Kundry (Dunja Vejzovic) is the one weak link, Sean? I find her voice too sharp, and not really seductively maternal in the central scene of Act Two.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sean on February 02, 2008, 02:21:26 PM
Not a weak link, though she sounds like she's attacking 20th c music at times, especially at the point of that extraordinary leap (you know where I mean). It's Peter Hoffmann's Parsifal is the voice that lacks beauty unfortunately- he's on the note but sounds rough at times...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on February 02, 2008, 02:37:58 PM
Nobody listened to today's Walküre?  :'(
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bhodges on February 02, 2008, 02:43:09 PM
Quote from: uffeviking on February 02, 2008, 02:37:58 PM
Nobody listened to today's Walküre?  :'(

:'(  Sorry, Lis!  How did you like it?  This was with Maazel conducting, yes? 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sean on February 02, 2008, 02:46:28 PM
I listened to about two minutes- didn't like the conducting or the singing, or the whole attitude, and I'd say opera's in as much trouble as the rest of art. Things are on the surface, performers are melodramatic and unserious, and what's happened to the quality of the announcers, the analysis and the Texaco quiz? That quiz used to be very impressive, now its just drivel...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bhodges on February 02, 2008, 02:50:10 PM
Quote from: Sean on February 02, 2008, 02:46:28 PM
I listened to about two minutes- didn't like the conducting or the singing, or the whole attitude, and I'd say opera's in as much trouble as the rest of art. Things are on the surface, performers are melodramatic and unserious, and what's happened to the quality of the announcers, the analysis and the Texaco quiz? That quiz used to be very impressive, now its just drivel...

How could you even arrive at such a conclusion--or for that matter, any conclusion--hearing two minutes of it?  ::)

--Bruce
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on February 02, 2008, 03:25:53 PM
Sean, are you judging the quality of a Wagner Music Drama by the quality of the inane female intermission announcer who can't even pronounce properly the name of one of their sponsors?  ::)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 02, 2008, 03:35:18 PM
Quote from: uffeviking on February 02, 2008, 02:37:58 PM
Nobody listened to today's Walküre?  :'(
I was there. It was fabulous. Deborah Voight's Sieglinde was feminine and affectionate. Her diction and acting was excellent. Petrenko's Hunding was youthful but very convincing. He also had a very intimidating stage presence. Siegmund wasn't vocally very impressive but he and Voight had beautiful chemistry. James Morris' Wotan, well what can you say, I know you don't like him but I think he pretty much owns this role. His reading is much more subtle than 20 years ago. Now it is angst fill and much less angry and petulent. I am not in love with Gasteen's Brunnhilde, vocally her top note is about an A and she is constanly flat, and her acting is pretty superficial. But in this day and age you have her, Polanski, Eaglen, and that's about it.

Maazel's conducting was lucid and professional. Although he does miss a lot of the excitement that you get with Levine. The orchestra sounds fabulous. The winds and brasses are limpid and piquant and the strings are bass-rich and heavenly sounding in the violins.

I love the performance.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on February 02, 2008, 03:40:10 PM
Quote from: Sean on February 02, 2008, 11:53:00 AM
Hi Haffner

Levine's a committed Wagnerian, often shedding new light and colour, though without the most overarching mind to fully contain the great paragraphs. His Good Friday peroration music in Parsifal is superb, finding more strangeness and mystery in the fabulous harmonies than Karajan.

The Karajan otherwise though is entirely in a class of its own with no serious competitors: one of the greatest of opera recordings.


Looks like the Karajan for me (first Parsifal). I'll grab that one next month.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 02, 2008, 03:51:06 PM
Quote from: bhodges on February 02, 2008, 02:50:10 PM
How could you even arrive at such a conclusion--or for that matter, any conclusion--hearing two minutes of it?  ::)

--Bruce

He's been taking lessons from paulb  ;D

The Art of Instant Criticism 101: How to Extrapolate an Entire Performance from a 30 Second Clip

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 02, 2008, 03:54:47 PM
Quote from: uffeviking on February 02, 2008, 02:37:58 PM
Nobody listened to today's Walküre?  :'(

Unfortunately I didn't see your announcement until we'd come home from dinner. Too late to tune in. I would have liked to have heard it, especially so since I've been discussing Maazel in recent threads.

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 03, 2008, 08:25:55 AM
Quote from: Sean on February 02, 2008, 02:46:28 PM
I listened to about two minutes- didn't like the conducting or the singing, or the whole attitude, and I'd say opera's in as much trouble as the rest of art. Things are on the surface, performers are melodramatic and unserious, and what's happened to the quality of the announcers, the analysis and the Texaco quiz? That quiz used to be very impressive, now its just drivel...
Oh come on ! Maazel has been conducting Wagner for 40 years for crying out loud. He was conducting at Bayreuth before you were even born. I'd say he knows a thing or two about Wagner. So he is not as over-the-top as Solti or as focused on exacting every detail of the score as Karajan. How do you come up with the performers being unserious? That is an accusation, it questions their professionalism. I can guaranteed you that every single one of the singers, Ms. Voight, Ms. DeYoung, Mr. Morris, etc, etc., plus 100+ members of the Met Orchestra worked their butts off to bring this treacherously difficult music out to be the unbearably beautiful piece of art that it is. Now you may or may not like their voices, that is your right, but please don't question their professionalism and work ethics.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sean on February 03, 2008, 10:29:00 AM
Hello Perfect, well I could have listened to more than I did. I've been very disillusioned indeed in recent years with numerous Western opera productions, many being closer to musicals and promoted in terms of light entertainment by very sales-conscious managements. A week or two back for instance there was Wagner broadcast from Covent Garden under Haitink and the overall conception was very poor and superficial, as most productions from there are- and this affects the singer's approach profoundly.

In fact I walked out of a Haitink Meistersinger there a few years back, it was so offensively trivial and unrelated to the opera. Also I was at a (Welsh National Opera) Tristan revival in 2006, a horrendous experience seeing how in seven years the soul of the work had completely disappeared.

I admire some of Maazel's work (eg Mahler), and I'm ready to explore his Wagner more. He definitely did not give a good account of his understanding of Wagner in the interval interview however.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 03, 2008, 11:15:58 AM
Well the MET is probably the final front against mindnumbingly bad modern opera productions. Nobody goes to the MET looking for Rheindaughters on motorcycles. I probably wouldn't pay the amount of money they are asking for tickets if the production is similar to what you get at some European opera houses. I understand what you are talking about. There is a picture in the guide I got before the opera with some of the Seattle Ring Cycle. Wotan looks like David Spade with an eyepatch (at least they kept the eyepatch). Now that is pretty revolting, even before I have heard one know of that production.

Well anyways I don't think you'll see Maazel there too often. Even the final perfomance of Die Walkuere is not conducted by him.

I am going back there again next Month for Tristan, and I expect the same kind of professional high standards that I have heard and seen yesterday. The cast for Tristan should be excellent with Voight, Heppner and DeYoung.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sean on February 03, 2008, 11:30:27 AM
That's interesting.

Best of luck with the Tristan. As the central work in Western art it needs a very understanding and serious mind to do it justice. I saw it in 1999 and that remains one of my most significant life experiences, but I'm not expecting to have that repeated. Would be nice to go to the Met someday though.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 03, 2008, 11:35:27 AM
Quote from: Sean on February 03, 2008, 11:30:27 AM
That's interesting.

Best of luck with the Tristan. As the central work in Western art it needs a very understanding and serious mind to do it justice. I saw it in 1999 and that remains one of my most significant life experiences, but I'm not expecting to have that repeated. Would be nice to go to the Met someday though.
Where did you see Tristan in 1999?
James Levine is conducting the performance next month, and I am really looking foward to it.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sean on February 03, 2008, 11:41:44 AM
I saw it in Birmingham, central England. It was a WNO production, from a period when this company was probably unmatched in the country. I saw the same thing, twisted and garbled, about 18 months ago.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 03, 2008, 12:13:18 PM
Was it sung in German or English?
It is almost an impossible opera to stage. If you think about it nothing really "happens". Unless you have two great (not good but great) singers taking on the leads you might as well bag the entire production. From what I have heard both Heppner and Voigt should shine in their roles?

Who sang the leads when you went? And who conducted?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sean on February 03, 2008, 01:16:51 PM
I'm sorry I don't remember the singers names, both were extremely well drilled though and obviously and knew the enormous parts very well; the conductor was Carlo Rizzi- a little Italianesque at times but in the zone on that night. What made it was the surreal sets and the seriousness and inwardness of the stage action- for instance when people were to keep still, they kept absolutely still: they believed in what they were doing in a way those in the revival I mentioned perhaps couldn't do, in present deleterious cultural conditions.

The final act is an incredible thing. Wagner taps into something primeval as the characters die and lie strewn on the stage, while the music explores the final sections of its material, leading in some kind of monstrous downward spiral, a decent into the maelstrom, to the death of Isolde. This is sex and death at its most fundamental- something to do with these experiences being on the edges of what it is to be human and the transcendence in them. I try to post my thoughts here sometimes, but the repressed psychos in charge don't much like it (I do have many more notes I think are worth something on Tristan and Wagner and sex, but perhaps another time.)

By the way in 2003 or 04 I went to a superb and endlessly imaginative WNO Parsifal, with a stunning and Callas-like Sara Fulgoni as Kundry.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sean on February 03, 2008, 01:18:20 PM
And it was in German of course. I wouldn't bother with anything else, especially as the words are so integrated in the music, even affecting the harmony at times.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: M forever on February 03, 2008, 10:16:17 PM
Quote from: Sean on February 03, 2008, 01:18:20 PM
And it was in German of course. I wouldn't bother with anything else, especially as the words are so integrated in the music, even affecting the harmony at times.

How do you know? You don't understand German. Because you read that somewhere? You shouldn't blabla about stuff you don't understand. Well, OK, that's all you do all the time. Schwachkopf.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sean on February 04, 2008, 01:36:49 AM
Yeah you're right, maybe it was Poynesian.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: max on February 04, 2008, 01:43:54 AM
Quote from: M forever on February 03, 2008, 10:16:17 PM
How do you know? You don't understand German. Because you read that somewhere? You shouldn't blabla about stuff you don't understand. Well, OK, that's all you do all the time. Schwachkopf.

Until I read this, I never realized that being a consummate idiot requires talent!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 04, 2008, 03:46:08 AM
Quote from: Sean on February 03, 2008, 11:30:27 AM
the central work in Western art

Ahem.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 04, 2008, 06:40:08 AM
Quote from: max on February 04, 2008, 01:43:54 AM
Until I read this, I never realized that being a consummate idiot requires talent!

It is harder than it looks. I have tried to do it several times and always failed.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: M forever on February 04, 2008, 06:45:26 AM
Quote from: Sean on February 04, 2008, 01:36:49 AM
Yeah you're right, maybe it was Poynesian.

Exactly my point. To you, it wouldn't make a difference. Don't you feel like a complete idiot when you pontifcate about stuff you don't even understand?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on February 04, 2008, 07:13:56 AM
When everybody gets back to the topic - that's the line on the top, next to Subject: "Re. Wagner's Valhalla", - this thread will get unlocked.

$:)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 04, 2008, 07:52:00 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on February 04, 2008, 07:13:56 AM
When everybody gets back to the topic - that's the line on the top, next to Subject: "Re. Wagner's Valhalla", - this thread will get unlocked.

$:)

Is it unlocked now?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on February 04, 2008, 08:28:07 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on February 04, 2008, 06:40:08 AM
It is harder than it looks. I have tried to do it several times and always failed.





I have extraordinary talent at it, almost completely inherited. WhhheeeEEEEeeEEEEEee!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Steve on February 04, 2008, 08:32:52 AM
Quote from: M forever on February 04, 2008, 06:45:26 AM
Exactly my point. To you, it wouldn't make a difference. Don't you feel like a complete idiot when you pontifcate about stuff you don't even understand?

So his analysis is moot because he doesn't speak the language?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: m_gigena on February 04, 2008, 10:19:41 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on February 04, 2008, 07:13:56 AM
When everybody gets back to the topic - that's the line on the top, next to Subject: "Re. Wagner's Valhalla", - this thread will get unlocked.

$:)

I don't get it. How is that everybody can go back to topic while the thread is closed?
It looks more like a warning to me: keep it clean, do not disturb the nuns, or else...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on February 04, 2008, 11:41:09 AM
Manuel, you got it ! It was a warning.  $:)

Now can we read something about Wagner's Valhalla? ???
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 04, 2008, 12:02:36 PM
Quote from: Sean on February 02, 2008, 02:46:28 PM
I listened to about two minutes- didn't like the conducting or the singing, or the whole attitude, and I'd say opera's in as much trouble as the rest of art.

Okay. I am listening to another Met performance of this opera: this time with Levine conducting from a live performance in 2000 with Voigt (again) and Domingo as Sieglinde and Siegmund respectively and objectively speaking there is no serious comparison as the Levine is superior in almost every regards. The final part of the duet starting with 'Du Bist der Lenz' should take the house down and it does here. Don't get me wrong Maazel is still very good but if there is ever a time for some over-the-top kind of conducting this is it, and Levine provides just that.

So I can see why you don't particularly warm to Maazel's conducting.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Anne on February 04, 2008, 12:39:20 PM
About 6 -7 years ago some of us were listening to the Met Saturday afternoon broadcast of Die Meistersinger with Levine conducting.  I forgot who the singers were but the orchestra was our main focus.  He had those players so pumped up that from our homes we felt like the excitement was taking us right up through the roof.  It was the most thrilling broadcast I have ever heard.

At the end of Gotterdammerung after the singers have stopped singing, Wagner wrote a lot of music for the orchestra.  From my perspective, that helps the audience come back to earth after being so absorbed in the drama; he did the same for Die Meistersinger.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 04, 2008, 12:45:13 PM
6 or 7 years ago you likely heard Morris, Heppner and Mattila in Meistersinger.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on February 04, 2008, 12:48:04 PM
Chandos are preparing to issue a BBC recording of a performance in English of Meistersingers conducted by Reginald Goodall.

This was one of a series of performances that were very highly thought of. It will be interesting to hear whether it is a case of rose tinted glasses.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 04, 2008, 12:51:19 PM
Quote from: knight on February 04, 2008, 12:48:04 PM
Chandos are preparing to issue a BBC recording of a performance in English of Meistersingers conducted by Reginald Goodall.

It'll be a box with ten CDs, right Knight?  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Chaszz on February 04, 2008, 07:35:43 PM
Quote from: knight on February 04, 2008, 12:48:04 PM
Chandos are preparing to issue a BBC recording of a performance in English of Meistersingers conducted by Reginald Goodall.

This was one of a series of performances that were very highly thought of. It will be interesting to hear whether it is a case of rose tinted glasses.

Mike

Goodell's 'Ring' in English is excelent, one of the best interpretations, IMO. 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sean on February 04, 2008, 08:18:55 PM
Hi Perfect, I really needed to listen to more of the Maazel.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on February 04, 2008, 10:42:36 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 04, 2008, 12:51:19 PM
It'll be a box with ten CDs, right Knight?  ;D

Sarge

I like it....I like it.

As an aside. For a long time I had a CD issued by Chandos of most of the final act of Gotterdammerung in English and conducted by Goodall. It was a studio performance. Someone removed it from my collection. For a long time I tried to get a replacement. Then in London a few weeks ago, I found it in a bargain bin, just one copy with my name on it. It was as good as I recalled.Flowing and dramatic, very well sung, (men's chorus apart), it is now happily restored to me. I probably have about 120 Wagner discs, most of complete works, but this one sticks out. I much prefer it to the live discs by Goodall as I so dislike the recessed sound on them. The balance on this long extract is excellent.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on February 05, 2008, 01:20:02 AM
Quote from: knight on February 04, 2008, 12:48:04 PM
Chandos are preparing to issue a BBC recording of a performance in English of Meistersingers conducted by Reginald Goodall.

This was one of a series of performances that were very highly thought of. It will be interesting to hear whether it is a case of rose tinted glasses.

Mike

  Mike I don't think I like the idea of Wagner's operas being sung in English. Not sure if others on this forum would agree with me  ???.

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 05, 2008, 02:16:16 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on February 05, 2008, 01:20:02 AM
  Mike I don't think I like the idea of Wagner's operas being sung in English. Not sure if others on this forum would agree with me  ???

I think Wagner sung in the original German is best. There is such a close match between words and music, Wagner being composer and librettist at the same time, that anything else is always worse.

I uploaded an interesting article about Andrew Porter's Ring translation for those with no access to JSTOR:

http://www.mediafire.com/?0yb9bspfsbn
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 05, 2008, 02:55:18 AM
Quote from: knight on February 04, 2008, 10:42:36 PM
As an aside. For a long time I had a CD issued by Chandos of most of the final act of Gotterdammerung in English and conducted by Goodall. It was a studio performance. Someone removed it from my collection. For a long time I tried to get a replacement. Then in London a few weeks ago, I found it in a bargain bin, just one copy with my name on it. It was as good as I recalled.Flowing and dramatic, very well sung, (men's chorus apart), it is now happily restored to me. I probably have about 120 Wagner discs, most of complete works, but this one sticks out. I much prefer it to the live discs by Goodall as I so dislike the recessed sound on them. The balance on this long extract is excellent.

Interesting. I've not heard that recording, Mike...in fact, I know very little of Goodall's Wagner. I own The Valkyrie and that's it. A member at the Gramophone forum swears by Goodall's Parsifal. I would like to hear it someday.

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on February 05, 2008, 04:05:51 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on February 05, 2008, 01:20:02 AM
  Mike I don't think I like the idea of Wagner's operas being sung in English. Not sure if others on this forum would agree with me  ???.

  marvin



Sean's contention about the cadential and harmonic bases being linked to the structure of the German language might have something to it.  I haven't had alot of experience hearing the Ring in English (just some of the Remedios), but what I have heard tends to be below standard overall. Of course, I'm keeping in mind it may have been myriad other factors, and perhaps someone can help me with this.

The Ring in English (to me ,at least) tends to take something very significant away. Whether it's the deeply set "cultural/ethnic" whaddever, I don't know. I do know that, just for me at least, much of the heroic atmosphere seemed to have been minimized. Of course that could be just because I really love a super-"Heroic" Wagner.


Plus, I missed the pronounced German rolled "r"s in the English!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 05, 2008, 04:49:11 AM
Quote from: Haffner on February 05, 2008, 04:05:51 AM
Sean's contention about the cadential and harmonic bases being linked to the structure of the German language might have something to it.

I read once in a (somewhat controversial, I later found out) study about the genesis of the 'Ring' by Curt von Westernhagen that Wagner's harmony really follows the syntax of his verse - so, for instance, if a sentence isn't finished, he uses a half-cadence. But perhaps this is word-setting as it should be? I don't know about Mozart's practice. Or Verdi's, for that matter.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on February 05, 2008, 04:52:22 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on February 05, 2008, 04:49:11 AM
I read once in a (somewhat controversial, I later found out) study about the genesis of the 'Ring' by Curt von Westernhagen that Wagner's harmony really follows the syntax of his verse - so, for instance, if a sentence isn't finished, he uses a half-cadence. But perhaps this is word-setting as it should be? I don't know about Mozart's practice. Or Verdi's, for that matter.


Yeah,  I noticed that in the German there are many instances of Wagner finishing and beginning singer's phrases with the orchestra. The orchestra really does seem like another character in Wagner's operas...see the idea of "Greek Choruses".
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 05, 2008, 05:54:54 AM
Quote from: Haffner on February 05, 2008, 04:05:51 AM


I haven't had alot of experience hearing the Ring in English (just some of the Remedios), but what I have heard tends to be below standard overall. Of course, I'm keeping in mind it may have been myriad other factors, and perhaps someone can help me with this.

You are talking about the Goodall Ring Cycle I suppose. I can tell you few outside of England can ever entertain the thought that it is even of marginal quality. The singing is okay. Rita Hunter's Brunnhilde is actually a lot better than some of the also-rans they have singing the roles (like Jane Eaglen or Eva Marton). The problem I have with that production is the conducting and orchestral playing. Let's forget the fact that it is slow, and I mean glacially slow (some 3 hours longer than the Boehm for example), the orchestral execution is so bad that I would go as far to say even the dreaded RAI Orchestra under Furtwangler plays this music better. The strings are scratchy and imprecise, the brass reticent, and there are countless instances of ensemble slackless. Let's assume for a moment that Goodall had ample rehearsal time, after awhile you just say to yourself: okay, forget it, they just can't play this music, or this music is beyond Goodall's iffy conducting ability There is zero color or character from the orchestra. If you compare to any of the mainstream Rings out there you don't even recognize it is the same music.

For Goodall cults only.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on February 05, 2008, 06:03:47 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on February 05, 2008, 05:54:54 AM
You are talking about the Goodall Ring Cycle I suppose. I can tell you few outside of England can ever entertain the thought that it is even of marginal quality. The singing is okay. Rita Hunter's Brunnhilde is actually a lot better than some of the also-rans they have singing the roles (like Jane Eaglen or Eva Marton). The problem I have with that production is the conducting and orchestral playing. Let's forget the fact that it is slow, and I mean glacially slow (some 3 hours longer than the Boehm for example), the orchestral execution is so bad that I would go as far to say even the dreaded RAI Orchestra under Furtwangler plays this music better. The strings are scratchy and imprecise, the brass reticent, and there are countless instances of ensemble slackless. Let's assume for a moment that Goodall had ample rehearsal time, after awhile you just say to yourself: okay, forget it, they just can't play this music, or this music is beyond Goodall's iffy conducting ability There is zero color or character from the orchestra. If you compare to any of the mainstream Rings out there you don't even recognize it is the same music.

For Goodall cults only.



You wrote was I too polite/deferential to write. Thanks, and sorry about my being such a wuss.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 05, 2008, 06:16:24 AM
I write as I hear. This has nothing to do with being anti-British or whatever. Many on this board accuse Levine of being slow. Levine is slowish but he brings more out of the score than Goodall ever does. And the MET Orchestra versus the band that Goodall patched together? C'mon.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on February 05, 2008, 06:29:49 AM
I am not so sure about 'few out of England'.....you might perhaps refer to the UK or GB, the Scots critics were also keen and would not appreciate being referred to as English. EMI sold a large number of the Goodall Ring in the US, I don't know numbers, but they were surprised, perhaps you would like to argue that these were ex-pat 'English'. I am no particular fan of Goodall. I recall his Tristan needed an extra LP above the norm. But, of course speed is only one element. Remedios was certainly up to the Siegfried at this point, though he was coached very carefully by Goodall and I don't feel he did well away from his mentor. I recall a disastrous Mahler 8 under Boulez.

Nor am I advocating we all listen to Wagner in English, it works much better for me than Carmen or Aida in English and I enjoy savoring the words where decent acting singers make something of the words. Nothing really substitutes for Wagner in German. But, I do buy some of the Chandos operas in English and quite a number work well, in addition to being considerable performances musically.

Certainly the initial studio disc I referred to has excellent playing and is most certainly not unusually slow. Or, perhaps I ought to say, it does not feel slow. Act 3 Scene 3 is longer than Solti by about six minutes.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: M forever on February 05, 2008, 10:12:23 PM
Quote from: Haffner on February 05, 2008, 04:05:51 AM
Sean's contention about the cadential and harmonic bases being linked to the structure of the German language might have something to it.

Maybe. Or maybe not. That is not the point here. The point is that since Sean doesn't understand German, he shouldn't blabla about stuff like that.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on February 06, 2008, 09:28:45 AM
Quote from: M forever on February 05, 2008, 10:12:23 PM
Maybe. Or maybe not. That is not the point here. The point is that since Sean doesn't understand German, he shouldn't blabla about stuff like that.




oops
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on February 07, 2008, 07:19:05 PM
Traveling to Germany this summer? I read about just the place for all devoted Wagnerians to visit. A group of Wagnerians gathered around the conductor Wilhelm Keitel and decided to present this September the Ring des Nibelungen on four consecutive days on a branch of the Rhein near Speyer in a venue built for 2000 visitors. The building is designed by architect Matteo Thun and constructed out of wood and canvass. Singers have not been chosen yet, the organisers have to sell enough tickets first; € 3000 to € 15000 per packet. If the dream becomes reality then Wagner's stage directions will be followed to the letter and at the end of Götterdämmerung the building will be set afire. The next evening Bruckner's Symphony No. 9 will be performed at the ruins.  ::)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on February 08, 2008, 01:21:22 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on February 07, 2008, 07:19:05 PM
Traveling to Germany this summer? I read about just the place for all devoted Wagnerians to visit. A group of Wagnerians gathered around the conductor Wilhelm Keitel and decided to present this September the Ring des Nibelungen on four consecutive days on a branch of the Rhein near Speyer in a venue built for 2000 visitors. The building is designed by architect Matteo Thun and constructed out of wood and canvass. Singers have not been chosen yet, the organisers have to sell enough tickets first; € 3000 to € 15000 per packet. If the dream becomes reality then Wagner's stage directions will be followed to the letter and at the end of Götterdämmerung the building will be set afire. The next evening Bruckner's Symphony No. 9 will be performed at the ruins.  ::)

  Sign me up Lis please please sign me up  0:)!!

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 08, 2008, 01:51:37 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on February 07, 2008, 07:19:05 PM
Traveling to Germany this summer? I read about just the place for all devoted Wagnerians to visit. A group of Wagnerians gathered around the conductor Wilhelm Keitel and decided to present this September the Ring des Nibelungen on four consecutive days on a branch of the Rhein near Speyer in a venue built for 2000 visitors. The building is designed by architect Matteo Thun and constructed out of wood and canvass. Singers have not been chosen yet, the organisers have to sell enough tickets first; € 3000 to € 15000 per packet. If the dream becomes reality then Wagner's stage directions will be followed to the letter and at the end of Götterdämmerung the building will be set afire. The next evening Bruckner's Symphony No. 9 will be performed at the ruins.  ::)

Well, they are realising one of Wagner's earliest ideas - performing the 'Ring' on four consecutive days in a purpose-built theater, which is broken down afterwards... This was the germ of what we now know as the 'Bayreuther Festspiele'.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on February 08, 2008, 02:24:53 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on February 08, 2008, 01:51:37 AM
Well, they are realising one of Wagner's earliest ideas - performing the 'Ring' on four consecutive days in a purpose-built theater, which is broken down afterwards... This was the germ of what we now know as the 'Bayreuther Festspiele'.

  Yes but they are also torching the place.....what better way to see Loge, the Fire God do his job than to see the whole building set afire!  I think Wagner just turned in his grave (with delight) at the thought of that!!

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 08, 2008, 03:20:18 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on February 07, 2008, 07:19:05 PM
Traveling to Germany this summer? I read about just the place for all devoted Wagnerians to visit. A group of Wagnerians gathered around the conductor Wilhelm Keitel and decided to present this September the Ring des Nibelungen on four consecutive days on a branch of the Rhein near Speyer in a venue built for 2000 visitors. The building is designed by architect Matteo Thun and constructed out of wood and canvass. Singers have not been chosen yet, the organisers have to sell enough tickets first; € 3000 to € 15000 per packet. If the dream becomes reality then Wagner's stage directions will be followed to the letter and at the end of Götterdämmerung the building will be set afire. The next evening Bruckner's Symphony No. 9 will be performed at the ruins.  ::)

Speyer is thirty minutes south of where I live. I had a momentary burst of elation...until I saw the price of the tickets. :o  Damn.... I can't even afford the cheap seats. €3000 = $4370

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on February 08, 2008, 03:26:13 AM
To truly follow all of Wagner's instructions though, more has to be done and I am holding off with my ticket purchase until I know if the organisers will have Brünnhilde ride Grane into the flames and also divert part of the Rhein to flood the scene!

Marvin, have you run the ticket price through the currency conversion table? It's from $4,347.00 to $21,734.00!  ::)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on February 08, 2008, 03:32:12 AM
My apology, Sarge, I typed my post before your's popped up on my computer!  :-[

I wonder if the ticket price includes being invited to the wedding meal at the Gibich's Great Hall, roasted boar and buckets of strong drink!  ???
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on February 08, 2008, 03:35:27 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on February 08, 2008, 03:26:13 AM
To truly follow all of Wagner's instructions though, more has to be done and I am holding off with my ticket purchase until I know if the organisers will have Brünnhilde ride Grane into the flames and also divert part of the Rhein to flood the scene!

Marvin, have you run the ticket price through the currency conversion table? It's from $4,347.00 to $21,734.00!  ::)

   :o :o :o  I missed that part, well with all the excitement and all I didn't think twice about the price.  I am however willing to settle for seats at the concession stands if there are any!!

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on February 08, 2008, 05:30:10 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on February 08, 2008, 03:35:27 AM
   :o :o :o  I missed that part, well with all the excitement and all I didn't think twice about the price.  I am however willing to settle for seats at the concession stands if there are any!!

  marvin




I'm with you, Marvin!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on February 08, 2008, 11:18:17 AM
It sounds insane. A King Ludwig moment. Might be worth it just to see "Brunhilde admiring Siegfried's ring". >:D One of the stage directions.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on February 09, 2008, 01:30:28 AM
Jessye Norman on a new YouTube video singing The Immolation Scene under Masur. Can anyone date this video? Her voice initially seems less secure than I am accustomed to hearing it, even some little slips in intonation. Certainly in part two, the upper notes are not secure. Nevertheless, well worth hearing. Masur speeds through the main orchestral postlude, it looses quite a bit, a run-through.

Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swTTWurVnKc

Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48ShCmL7Ew0&feature=related


Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lobby on February 14, 2008, 04:54:05 AM
Mike,

I think the recording dates from 1995 and was the gala opening concert of the NYPO's 153rd season.

As Jessye Norman had already started to move more towards the mezzo repertoire by the early 1990s, its perhaps not surprising that her top notes are not secure.

Jon
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on February 14, 2008, 04:59:05 AM
Jon, Thanks for that. She looks slimmer than when I used to see her in concert, so I know it must be from her more recent appearances. I was wondering what she was up to these days....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessye_Norman#Later_career_.281990-present.29

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on February 14, 2008, 07:36:45 AM
Quote from: Lobby on February 14, 2008, 04:54:05 AM
Mike,

I think the recording dates from 1995 and was the gala opening concert of the NYPO's 153rd season.

As Jessye Norman had already started to move more towards the mezzo repertoire by the early 1990s, its perhaps not surprising that her top notes are not secure.

Jon


She's an amazing Wagner singer, one of my favorites! She was a fantastic Sieglinde in Levine's Met.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 15, 2008, 05:34:47 AM
Quote from: Haffner on February 14, 2008, 07:36:45 AM

She's an amazing Wagner singer, one of my favorites! She was a fantastic Sieglinde in Levine's Met.
Indeed she was. For all the talk about no suitable Siegfried and Brunnhilde nowadays, how about the lack of Siegmunds and Sieglindes out there. You best Siegmund nowadays is probably Placido Domingo. Sieglinde I don't know, I do know there are a lot of singers that have no business singing this role (just check out the Amsterdam Ring or the one on Naxos in Stuttgart and you'll know what I am talking about.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on February 15, 2008, 06:42:33 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on February 15, 2008, 05:34:47 AM
Indeed she was. For all the talk about no suitable Siegfried and Brunnhilde nowadays, how about the lack of Siegmunds and Sieglindes out there. You best Siegmund nowadays is probably Placido Domingo. Sieglinde I don't know, I do know there are a lot of singers that have no business singing this role (just check out the Amsterdam Ring or the one on Naxos in Stuttgart and you'll know what I am talking about.

  Domingo in a Wagnerian opera are you sure that is a good idea PW??

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on February 15, 2008, 06:49:07 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on February 15, 2008, 06:42:33 AM
  Domingo in a Wagnerian opera are you sure that is a good idea PW??

  marvin



I've read great reviews concerning his Lohengrin and Tristan. But I am a big fan of Placido to begin with (love his Verdi in particular!).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 15, 2008, 06:59:55 AM
Just throw aside your preconceptions and just listen:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mwKhngpN0dk (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mwKhngpN0dk)

He  is the greatest Siegmund probably in the past 10 or 15 years. Nobody sings it with so much power and expression as he does.
(gotta love W. Meier as Sieglinde also, not the best of voices but boy a great actress).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on February 15, 2008, 07:05:07 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on February 15, 2008, 06:59:55 AM
Just throw aside your preconceptions and just listen:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mwKhngpN0dk (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mwKhngpN0dk)

He  is the greatest Siegmund probably in the past 10 or 15 years. Nobody sings it with so much power and expression as he does.
(gotta love W. Meier as Sieglinde also, not the best of voices but boy a great actress).




Damn, this is good!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 15, 2008, 07:11:56 AM
Quote from: Haffner on February 15, 2008, 07:05:07 AM



Damn, this is good!
No sh*t he is good.

Braut und Schwester, bist du den Bruder indeed !
You ever hear that high "A" on "Walsung" sung with such power ?

A couple of years ago I could have heard him at the MET singing this role.... Instead I got Clifton Forbis this year...a very good artist but hardly in the same class as Domingo.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on February 15, 2008, 07:20:58 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on February 15, 2008, 06:59:55 AM
Just throw aside your preconceptions and just listen:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mwKhngpN0dk (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mwKhngpN0dk)

He  is the greatest Siegmund probably in the past 10 or 15 years. Nobody sings it with so much power and expression as he does.
(gotta love W. Meier as Sieglinde also, not the best of voices but boy a great actress).

  OK PW you win!  Are you happy now??

  Powerfull very powerfull! I didn't know Domingo had in him to sing Wagner that well.

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on February 15, 2008, 07:31:24 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on February 15, 2008, 07:20:58 AM
  OK PW you win!  Are you happy now??

  Powerfull very powerfull! I didn't know Domingo had in him to sing Wagner that well.

  marvin



I'm really impressed, and I'll be checking out his Tristan and Lohengrin as well now.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 15, 2008, 07:36:13 AM
Quote from: Haffner on February 15, 2008, 07:31:24 AM


I'm really impressed, and I'll be checking out his Tristan and Lohengrin as well now.
If you are interested go to metopera.org and click on the link for Rhapsody and you get 25 free plays (you have to download the player). You can listen to a broadcast from 2005 of Domingo singing Siegmund with James Levine conducting. 25 free plays should get you through the entire 1st act and whatever other scenes Siegmund appear in. You also get the gleaming soprano of Deborah Voigt singing Sieglinde as a bonus. The quality of the audio is excellent.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on February 15, 2008, 08:33:28 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on February 15, 2008, 07:36:13 AM
If you are interested go to metopera.org and click on the link for Rhapsody and you get 25 free plays (you have to download the player). You can listen to a broadcast from 2005 of Domingo singing Siegmund with James Levine conducting. 25 free plays should get you through the entire 1st act and whatever other scenes Siegmund appear in. You also get the gleaming soprano of Deborah Voigt singing Sieglinde as a bonus. The quality of the audio is excellent.




Hey thanks for the tip! I'm there, dude.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 17, 2008, 05:58:39 PM
Sorry I don't want to belabor the point but watching Domingo and Meier in Die Walkuere again. THis is unreal, astonishingly good. You can tell it is good when the typically chatty La Scala audience is mouse quiet. Also when was the last time you hear R. Muti put in such a good performance at the pit? This guy is actually enjoying it as much as the audience.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on February 18, 2008, 02:50:16 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on February 17, 2008, 05:58:39 PM
Also when was the last time you hear R. Muti put in such a good performance at the pit? This guy is actually enjoying it as much as the audience.


I do have a really good Cosi Fan Tutte with Muti conducting in what I believe is the same pit. Live dvde, and a good one. But now I want the Domingo Walkure!

I spent hours upon hours this month checking out the Krauss vs. the Karajan vs. the Solti Die Walkure. Lucky I've had members here help me to obtain the HvK and Krauss (terrific recordings and performances!).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 18, 2008, 02:40:53 PM
Quote from: Haffner on February 18, 2008, 02:50:16 AM

I do have a really good Cosi Fan Tutte with Muti conducting in what I believe is the same pit. Live dvde, and a good one. But now I want the Domingo Walkure!

I spent hours upon hours this month checking out the Krauss vs. the Karajan vs. the Solti Die Walkure. Lucky I've had members here help me to obtain the HvK and Krauss (terrific recordings and performances!).
The Krauss is okay. I suppose they can never make it sound all that great (the Gala and the new Opera D'oro sound almost the same to me)  and has some really sloppy orchestal execution moments (the prelude to Act III is a total mess). BUT the best Siegmund ever Ramon Vinay is worth the set alone.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on February 18, 2008, 03:23:14 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on February 18, 2008, 02:40:53 PM
BUT the best Siegmund ever Ramon Vinay is worth the set alone.




Love the Krauss! And I'm completely with you on the Vinay...the guy was a MONSTER. But my favorite Act I is the Karajan. You hate me.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on February 18, 2008, 08:43:35 PM
Quote from: Haffner on February 18, 2008, 02:50:16 AM

But now I want the Domingo Walkure!


So do I! PerfectWagnerite, where did you get the Muti/La Scala/Domingo DVD? I searched for it and could not find it. Be a sweetheart, please and share with us!  :-*
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 19, 2008, 03:11:09 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on February 18, 2008, 08:43:35 PM
So do I! PerfectWagnerite, where did you get the Muti/La Scala/Domingo DVD? I searched for it and could not find it. Be a sweetheart, please and share with us!  :-*
Who me??? I don't have it. I just gave a link to where you can see it on youtube. If it is out there I would be the first lining up to buy it. The picture and sound looks too good to be a pirate. I was hoping you might know since you are much more knowledgeable about operas on dvd.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 19, 2008, 03:35:40 AM
Quote from: Haffner on February 18, 2008, 03:23:14 PM



Love the Krauss! And I'm completely with you on the Vinay...the guy was a MONSTER. But my favorite Act I is the Karajan. You hate me.
That one is pretty good too, except Janowitz is the wrong voice for the role. Sorry, Janowitz has a loveley voice, but much too light for the role. She is much better as Eva in Meistersinger for example. IF you like Vickers he has a much better partner in Gre Brouwenstijn in the Leinsdorf Walkuere (http://www.amazon.com/Die-Walkure-Dig-Wagner/dp/B00006469P/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1203423389&sr=8-2).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on February 19, 2008, 08:02:10 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on February 19, 2008, 03:35:40 AM
IF you like Vickers he has a much better partner in Gre Brouwenstijn in the Leinsdorf Walkuere (http://www.amazon.com/Die-Walkure-Dig-Wagner/dp/B00006469P/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1203423389&sr=8-2).



oooOOOOOOoooo!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on February 19, 2008, 08:16:17 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on February 19, 2008, 03:35:40 AM
That one is pretty good too, except Janowitz is the wrong voice for the role. Sorry, Janowitz has a loveley voice, but much too light for the role. She is much better as Eva in Meistersinger for example. IF you like Vickers he has a much better partner in Gre Brouwenstijn in the Leinsdorf Walkuere (http://www.amazon.com/Die-Walkure-Dig-Wagner/dp/B00006469P/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1203423389&sr=8-2).

I would agree about the Leinsdorf Walküre, which doesn't get nearly enough 'face-time.'
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on February 19, 2008, 08:25:16 AM
I bought the Leinsdorf recently; pretty good. I am a Vickers fan and I prefer this version of Act 1 to Karajan's; as the latter mauls some of the tempi. Also, in the later acts, I prefer Nilsson to Crespin; mind you, I prefer Foster-Jenkins to Crespin. I have never been able to 'get' her.

I still enjoy the Karajan version a lot and would never get rid of it. The Leinsdorf is, I agree, underrated.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on February 19, 2008, 09:12:17 AM
Quote from: knight on February 19, 2008, 08:25:16 AM
I bought the Leinsdorf recently; pretty good. I am a Vickers fan and I prefer this version of Act 1 to Karajan's; as the latter mauls some of the tempi. Also, in the later acts, I prefer Nilsson to Crespin; mind you, I prefer Foster-Jenkins to Crespin. I have never been able to 'get' her.

I still enjoy the Karajan version a lot and would never get rid of it. The Leinsdorf is, I agree, underrated.

Mike





Will be getting the Leinsdorf. I completely agree as to Nilsson. I'm excited to hear Astrid's Elektra, as I'm wondering how much better than Nilsson she could be.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 19, 2008, 09:17:11 AM
Quote from: knight on February 19, 2008, 08:25:16 AM
Also, in the later acts, I prefer Nilsson to Crespin; mind you, I prefer Foster-Jenkins to Crespin. I have never been able to 'get' her.

Apparently neither did HVK, so he got rid of her in favor of Helga Dernesh ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 19, 2008, 09:53:10 AM
I also like this one (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wmiFkQSQHA8), cool trick with the fire at the end.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on February 19, 2008, 09:55:01 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on February 19, 2008, 09:53:10 AM
I also like this one (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wmiFkQSQHA8), cool trick with the fire at the end.




Very cool, thanks PW!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 20, 2008, 06:10:26 AM
And if you want to hear what a terrible Sieglinde sounds like, try this one (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=a06F71vc1cY).

Also interesting is that Domingo's frequent Sieglinde partner Waltraud Meier has never sung the role at the MET. SHe has sung pretty much everything else there but not this role, which she has sung pretty much everywhere else.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wendell_E on February 20, 2008, 06:42:59 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on February 20, 2008, 06:10:26 AM
Also interesting is that Domingo's frequent Sieglinde partner Waltraud Meier has never sung the role at the MET. SHe has sung pretty much everything else there but not this role, which she has sung pretty much everywhere else.

Or Isolde.  Meier has sung in Die Walküre at the Met, but back then she was singing Fricka.  She's scheduled to be one of the Sieglindes next season, when the Met's Otto Schenk Ring production has one last viewing before it's retired.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 20, 2008, 06:48:16 AM
Quote from: Wendell_E on February 20, 2008, 06:42:59 AM
Or Isolde.  Meier has sung in Die Walküre at the Met, but back then she was singing Fricka.  She's scheduled to be one of the Sieglindes next season, when the Met's Otto Schenk Ring production has one last viewing before it's retired.
Yeah, no Isolde at the MET for Frau Meier either, which probably isn't a big loss for us as she is nowhere vocally capable of tackling that role. But I would definitely get tickets to see her Sieglinde next season. Do you know what the rest of the cast is? Or where do I find out?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on February 20, 2008, 07:09:33 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on February 20, 2008, 06:48:16 AM
Yeah, no Isolde at the MET for Frau Meier either, which probably isn't a big loss for us as she is nowhere vocally capable of tackling that role.

  PW for what its worth I have this recording of Meier as Isolde and I find her performance enjoyable.  Is she a Flagstad? No.  but I kind of like her in the role of Isolde:

  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pkJspEzzL._SS500_.jpg)

  marvin

 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 20, 2008, 07:14:20 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on February 20, 2008, 07:09:33 AM
  PW for what its worth I have this recording of Meier as Isolde and I find her performance enjoyable.  Is she a Flagstad? No.  but I kind of like her in the role of Isolde:

  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pkJspEzzL._SS500_.jpg)

  marvin

 
On your DVD it's Frau Meier alright, but its Johana Meier. I am not sure whether she is related to Waltraud. It's been a while since I have watched that DVD and I don't remember much about Johana.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on February 20, 2008, 07:22:36 AM
On my LVD cover it's Johanna Meier and as I remember it's not the Domingo partner Waltraut! I had a Waltraut Meier documentary on DVD and don't recall her mentioning a singing sister.  ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 20, 2008, 07:25:21 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on February 20, 2008, 07:22:36 AM
On my LVD cover it's Johanna Meier and as I remember it's not the Domingo partner Waltraut! I had a Waltraut Meier documentary on DVD and don't recall her mentioning a singing sister.  ;)
You mean Waltraud ? Waltraut is Bruennhilde's sister, Waltraud is the singer ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wendell_E on February 20, 2008, 07:49:06 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on February 20, 2008, 06:48:16 AM
Yeah, no Isolde at the MET for Frau Meier either, which probably isn't a big loss for us as she is nowhere vocally capable of tackling that role. But I would definitely get tickets to see her Sieglinde next season. Do you know what the rest of the cast is? Or where do I find out?

The official Met press release on next season should come out next month.  Until then the Met Future Seasons page at www.metmaniac.com usually has pretty accurate information.  Here's what they have for next season's Ring:

Christine Brewer/Lisa Gasteen (Brünnhilde)
Christian Franz/Jon Frederic West (Siegfried)
Albert Dohmen/James Morris (Wotan)
Waltraud Meier/Adrianne Pieczonka (Sieglinde)
Johan Botha/Plácido Domingo (Siegmund)
Richard Paul Fink (Alberich)
Gerhard Siegel (Mime)
John Tomlinson (Hagen, Hunding, Fafner)
Rene Pape (Fasolt, Hunding)
Kim Begley (Loge)
Yvonne Naef (Fricka)
Jill Grove (Erda)
Iain Patterson (Met debut)(Gunther)

No conductor's mentioned.  I guess "Levine" goes without saying?

As far as I know the American Johanna Meier and the German Waltraud Meier are not related.  I saw Johanna as Isolde and Elsa in New Orleans back in the early 80's.  She sang fairly often at the Met from the mid-70s to the late 80s as Ariadne, Marguerite, Senta, Donna Anna, Verdi Requiem, Beethoven's Leonore, Wagner's Elisabeth, Ellen Orford, Isolde, Sieglinde, Chrysothemis, the Walküre Brünnhilde, Tosca, and the Empress in Die Frau ohne Schatten.  As I recall, Levine was the one that recommended her to Wolfgang Wagner for Isolde, based on her Met performances as Senta.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 20, 2008, 07:54:21 AM
Thanks Wendell. Looks like a complete Ring Cycle next year. That ought to be something. When they list Christine Brewer/Lisa Gasteen (Brünnhilde) does it mean the first is more likely than the second or is it still up in the air?


Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wendell_E on February 20, 2008, 08:00:34 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on February 20, 2008, 07:54:21 AM
Thanks Wendell. Looks like a complete Ring Cycle next year. That ought to be something. When they list Christine Brewer/Lisa Gasteen (Brünnhilde) does it mean the first is more likely than the second or is it still up in the air?




I'm sure it means that they'll both be singing the role, and probably "covering" each others performances.  Similarly for Christian Franz/Jon Frederic West (Siegfried), Albert Dohmen/James Morris (Wotan), etc.  Much as Pieczonka and Voigt both sang Sieglinde performances this season.

Also, in addition to the complete cycles, they usually schedule a few extra Walküres.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 20, 2008, 08:03:30 AM
Also noticed Tomlinson singing Fafner/Hagen/Hunding. That ought to be something seeing Morris and Tomlinson on stage together during Rheingold bellowing at one another.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wendell_E on February 20, 2008, 08:05:47 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on February 20, 2008, 08:03:30 AM
Also noticed Tomlinson singing Fafner/Hagen/Hunding. That ought to be something seeing Morris and Tomlinson on stage together during Rheingold bellowing at one another.

And Morris will get to kill his competition in Walküre!   ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 20, 2008, 08:06:53 AM
Quote from: Wendell_E on February 20, 2008, 08:05:47 AM
And Morris will get to kill his competition in Walküre!   ;D
Yeah! "Geh...GEHHHHHH !!!!!".
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on February 20, 2008, 08:13:06 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on February 20, 2008, 07:25:21 AM
You mean Waltraud ? Waltraut is Bruennhilde's sister, Waltraud is the singer ;D

You got me! Ouch!

I know I should have lifted my derrière of the chair and look at the cover. Next time!  8)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on February 20, 2008, 08:24:47 AM
Hojotoho! I am not always wrong, Dear Perfect Wagnerite!

The Walküre's name is Waltraute! You stole her last letter, she'll gonna git you!  ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on February 20, 2008, 08:56:19 AM
Quote from: Wendell_E on February 20, 2008, 08:05:47 AM
And Morris will get to kill his competition in Walküre!   ;D

Only to have Tomlinson kill his son and last, best chance for victory in Götterdämmerung.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on February 20, 2008, 08:58:17 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on February 20, 2008, 07:22:36 AM
On my LVD cover it's Johanna Meier and as I remember it's not the Domingo partner Waltraut! I had a Waltraut Meier documentary on DVD and don't recall her mentioning a singing sister.  ;)

  Ok Lis and PW now I am confused  ??? how many Wagnerian soprano singers are there with the surname MEIER?? 


  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 20, 2008, 09:06:01 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on February 20, 2008, 08:58:17 AM
  Ok Lis and PW now I am confused  ??? how many Wagnerian soprano singers are there with the surname MEIER?? 


  marvin
Not sure, the only one I know is Johana Meier. Waltraud is really a mezzo who tries to sing the dramatic Wagnerian soprano roles like Isolde and Sieglinde. I guess she is doing the same thing as Helga Dernesh did.

It is even more confusing for you since Waltraud Meier DID and DOES STILL sing Isolde. But physically the two of them look nothing alike.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on February 20, 2008, 12:16:08 PM
Do PW and I know two different Meiers? The one doing Isolde with Kollo spells her first name Johanna, two of those 'enses', and PM insists on spelling it with one 'en'. I think it doesn't really matter, but at least those two - three? - ladies are keeping 'Wagner's Valhalla thread on the front page.

Hey, wait a minute, just spotted another misspelling in the title of this thread:

Wagner spelled it Walhall, no vee at the beginning and no additional a at the end!  $:)

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 20, 2008, 12:20:21 PM
Quote from: uffeviking on February 20, 2008, 12:16:08 PM
Hey, wait a minute, just spotted another misspelling in the title of this thread:

Wagner spelled it Walhall, no vee at the beginning and no additional a at the end!  $:)

Well, Valhalla is just the English version of the German Walhall, just as Valkyrie is of Walküre. So - no mistake, I think...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 20, 2008, 12:22:45 PM
Quote from: uffeviking on February 20, 2008, 12:16:08 PM
Do PW and I know two different Meiers? The one doing Isolde with Kollo spells her first name Johanna, two of those 'enses', and PM insists on spelling it with one 'en'.


oh yeah. I had an old classmate who spelled it "Johana" so automatically I thought it was only one "n". But you are alsolutely right.

Regarding Valhalla, I think it's Walhal in German and Valhalla in English like Jezetha said :)

And regarding Waltraute, I think in a few places in the libretto Wagner did spell it Waltraut without the 'e' but it was more for singing purposes, like sometimes in the libretto Bruennhilde appears as Bruennhild without the final 'e'.

Do you personally know Miss Johanna Meier?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on February 20, 2008, 12:30:28 PM
Regretably, never met the lady, yet watching the documentary about her life and career, hearing her thoughts on different subject, brings her close to better understanding her. She does seem to be a very down-to-earth woman without any star behaviour.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 20, 2008, 12:37:50 PM
Quote from: uffeviking on February 20, 2008, 12:30:28 PM
Regretably, never met the lady, yet watching the documentary about her life and career, hearing her thoughts on different subject, brings her close to better understanding her. She does seem to be a very down-to-earth woman without any star behaviour.
I tried googling her and not finding anything >:(

But if anyone wants to sample her artistry a short clip is here (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9158483980002360651)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 20, 2008, 12:40:08 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on February 20, 2008, 12:22:45 PM
And regarding Waltraute, I think in a few places in the libretto Wagner did spell it Waltraut without the 'e' but it was more for singing purposes, like sometimes in the libretto Bruennhilde appears as Bruennhild without the final 'e'.

Wagner likes to shorten names to get rid of unaccented final syllables (Sieglind, Brünnhild, Waltraut). It's a simple poetic measure.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on February 20, 2008, 01:07:26 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on February 20, 2008, 07:09:33 AM
  PW for what its worth I have this recording of Meier as Isolde and I find her performance enjoyable.  Is she a Flagstad? No.  but I kind of like her in the role of Isolde:

  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pkJspEzzL._SS500_.jpg)

  marvin

 


Thanks, Marvin, for the reccomendation. I've been really curious as to this dvd. I have the Furtwangler and Kleiber audio, and love them both, especially the former.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on February 20, 2008, 01:08:41 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on February 20, 2008, 08:06:53 AM
Yeah! "Geh...GEHHHHHH !!!!!".




I love Morris' "Geh...GEHHHHHH !!!!!"!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on February 20, 2008, 01:11:07 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on February 20, 2008, 12:40:08 PM
Wagner likes to shorten names to get rid of unaccented final syllables (Sieglind, Brünnhild, Waltraut). It's a simple poetic measure.


 Very good observation.  Wagner the poet I like that!

 marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 20, 2008, 01:28:11 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on February 20, 2008, 01:11:07 PM

 Very good observation.  Wagner the poet I like that!

 marvin

Wagner's librettos have often been derided, but even as accomplished a poet as Hugo von Hofmannsthal, who collaborated with Richard Strauss on many operas, was envious of Wagner's literary abilities as a librettist. And whatever some may think of the verse of the Ring - and the alliteration can be too much of a good thing sometimes -, Wagner achieves some marvellous feats of verbal concentration. As a writer and poet I really can appreciate that. And when Wagner read the whole poem aloud in Zürich, the great Swiss writer Gottfried Keller was very impressed - there was a 'rough poetry' there, he wrote to a friend (iirc).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on February 20, 2008, 01:51:05 PM
That's the documentary on Waltraud Meier I am talking about:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=82040&album_group=2
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 20, 2008, 02:50:16 PM
Quote from: uffeviking on February 20, 2008, 01:51:05 PM
That's the documentary on Waltraud Meier I am talking about:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=82040&album_group=2
Oh I thought you were talking about a documentary on Johanna.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: M forever on February 20, 2008, 07:46:04 PM
Both "Walhall" or "Walhalla" are correct, and yes, "Valhalla" is the correct English transliteration as w in German is the same sound as v in English. In fact, in old Norse it was spelled "Valhalla" while Old German uses the w at the beginning. "Halla" means "hall" (modern german "Halle"), "Wal" means "battle" or "war" (it's actually etymologically the same word as "war". See also "Walstatt", and old-fashioned word for "battlefield", or "Walkuere" ("kueren"="to choose, elect"), a woman who choses the slain heroes from the battlefield which will go to Walhalla.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on February 20, 2008, 07:59:43 PM
Quote from: M forever on February 20, 2008, 07:46:04 PM
Both "Walhall" or "Walhalla" are correct, and yes, "Valhalla" is the correct English transliteration as w in German is the same sound as v in English. In fact, in old Norse it was spelled "Valhalla" while Old German uses the w at the beginning. "Halla" means "hall" (modern german "Halle"), "Wal" means "battle" or "war" (it's actually etymologically the same word as "war". See also "Walstatt", and old-fashioned word for "battlefield", or "Walkuere" ("kueren"="to choose, elect"), a woman who choses the slain heroes from the battlefield which will go to Walhalla.

Query: How is Saal related to Halle? Are they synonyms, or are there shades of gray here?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: M forever on February 20, 2008, 08:19:58 PM
Both are more or less the same although a "Saal" is always a large *inner* room while a Halle is basically a large building which typically contains a large room which can be a "Saal" or a "Halle", but not the other way around, a "Saal" can not contain a "Halle", but a "Halle" can contain an inner "Halle". But in many examples, the exact use of the words is interchangeable. Both are very old words which reach far back into Indo-European language history. As you can see by the fact that "Halle" and "Zelle" ("cell", both in the architectural and biological sense) are etymologically derived from the same root word but mean very different things. But the basic meaning of "an enclosed space" is shared.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on February 20, 2008, 08:31:10 PM
Quote from: M forever on February 20, 2008, 08:19:58 PM
Both are more or less the same although a "Saal" is always a large *inner* room while a Halle is basically a large building which typically contains a large room which can be a "Saal" or a "Halle", but not the other way around, a "Saal" can not contain a "Halle", but a "Halle" can contain an inner "Halle". But in many examples, the exact use of the words is interchangeable. Both are very old words which reach far back into Indo-European language history. As you can see by the fact that "Halle" and "Zelle" ("cell", both in the architectural and biological sense) are etymologically derived from the same root word but mean very different things. But the basic meaning of "an enclosed space" is shared.

Thanks for clearing that up for me. Very informative.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 20, 2008, 09:48:39 PM
Quote from: M forever on February 20, 2008, 08:19:58 PM
Both are more or less the same although a "Saal" is always a large *inner* room while a Halle is basically a large building which typically contains a large room which can be a "Saal" or a "Halle", but not the other way around, a "Saal" can not contain a "Halle", but a "Halle" can contain an inner "Halle". But in many examples, the exact use of the words is interchangeable. Both are very old words which reach far back into Indo-European language history. As you can see by the fact that "Halle" and "Zelle" ("cell", both in the architectural and biological sense) are etymologically derived from the same root word but mean very different things. But the basic meaning of "an enclosed space" is shared.

The same applies to the Dutch hal en zaal.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 22, 2008, 04:17:06 AM
I thought some of the Wagnerites here would enjoy reading James Merrill's poem "The Ring Cycle."  It's based on his experience and associations seeing the Levine Ring at the Met.

    1

    They're doing a Ring cycle at the Met,
    Four operas in one week, for the first time
    Since 1939. I went to that one.
    Then war broke out, Flagstad flew home, tastes veered
    To tuneful deaths and dudgeons. Next to Verdi,
    whose riddles I could whistle but not solve,
    Wagner had been significance itself,
    Great golden lengths of it, stitched with motifs,
    A music in whose folds the mind, at twelve,
    Came to its senses: Twin, Sword, Forest Bird,
    Envy, Redemption through Love . . . But left unheard
    These fifty years? A fire of answered prayers
    Buurned round that little pitcher with big ears
    Who now wakes. Night. E-flat denotes the Rhine,
    Where everything began. The world's life. Mine.



    2

    Young love, moon-flooded hut, and the act ends.
    House lights. The matron on my left exclaims.
    We gasp and kiss. Our mothers were best friends.
    Now, old as mothers, here we sit. Too weird.
    That man across the aisle, with lambswool beard,
    Was once my classmate, or a year behind me.
    Alone, in black, in front of him, Maxine . . .
    It's like the Our Town cemetery scene!
    We have long evenings to absorb together
    Before the world ends: once familiar faces
    Transfigured by hi-tech rainbow and mist,
    Fireball and thunderhead. Make-believe weather
    Calling no less for prudence. At our stage
    When recognition strikes, who can afford
    The strain it places on the old switchboard?



    3

    Fricka looks pleased with her new hairdresser.
    Brünnhilde (Behrens) has abandoned hers.
    Russet-maned, eager for battle, she butts her father
    Like a playful pony. They've all grown, these powers,
    So young, so human. So exploitable.
    The very industries whose "major funding"
    Underwrote the production continue to plunder
    The planet's wealth. Erda, her cobwebs beaded
    With years of seeping waste, subsidies unheeded
    --Right Mr. President? Right, Texaco?--
    Into a glass-blue cleft. Singers retire,
    Yes, but take pupils. Not these powers, no, no.
    What corporation Wotan, trained by them,
    Returns gold to the disaffected river,
    Or preatomic sanctity to fire?



    4

    Brünnhilde confronts Siegfried. That is to say,
    Two singers have been patiently rehearsed
    So that their tones and attitudes convey
    Outrage and injured innocence. But first
    Two youngsters became singers, strove to master
    Every nuance of innocence and outrage
    Even in the bosom of their stolid
    Middleclass familes who made it possible
    To study voice, and languages, take lessons
    In how the woman loves, the hero dies . . .
    Tonight again, each note a blade reforged,
    The dire oath ready in their blood is sworn.
    Two world-class egos, painted, overweight,
    Who'll joke at supper sided by side, now hate
    So plausibly that one old stagehand cries.



    5

    I've worn my rings--all three of them
    At once for the first time--to the Ring.


    Like pearls in seawater they gleam,
    A facet sparkels through waves of sound.


    Of their three givers one is underground,
    One far off, one here listening.


    One ring is gold; one silver, set
    With two small diamonds; the third, bone
    --Conch shell, rather. Ocean cradled it


    As earth did the gems and metals. All unknown,
    Then, were the sweatshops of Nibelheim


    That worry nature into jewelry,
    Orbits of power, Love's over me,


    Or music's, as his own chromatic scales
    Beset the dragon, over Time.



    6

    Back when the old house was being leveled
    And this one built, I made a contribution.
    Accordingly, a seat that bears my name
    Year after year between its thin, squared shoulders
    (Where Hagen is about to aim his spear)
    Bides its time in instrumental gloom.
    These evenings we're safe. Our seats belong
    To Walter J. and Ortrud Fogelsong
    --Whoever they are, or were. But late one night
    (How is it possible? I'm sound asleep!)
    I stumble on "my" darkened place. The plaque
    Gives off that phosphorescent sheen of Earth's
    Address book. Stranger yet, as I sink back,
    The youth behind me, daybreak in his eyes--
    A son till now undreamed of--makes to rise.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on February 22, 2008, 05:20:07 AM
This was really cool, Sarge. Thanks!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 22, 2008, 07:37:10 AM
Thanks for the Merrill poem, Sarge. I have his Selected Poems 1946-1985, and Divine Comedies. But this one must be a late poem from the 1990s. Correct?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 22, 2008, 07:43:58 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on February 22, 2008, 07:37:10 AM
Thanks for the Merrill poem, Sarge. I have his Selected Poems 1946-1985, and Divine Comedies. But this one must be a late poem from the 1990s. Correct?

Very late. It's from his last book of poetry, A Scattering of Salts, published after his death actually, in 1995. He died too young.

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on February 26, 2008, 03:11:08 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on May 20, 2007, 02:47:08 PM
    Look forward to it too.  Why Verdi as my avatar? Because Verdi is my other love interest.  He epitomizes Italian Opera (rivalling Mozart in my opinion) as Wagner epotimizes German opera.  Some interesting facts: both Verdi and Wagner were born the same year 1813, both were rivals but never met.  Somehow I believe they  had great respect for each other.  Both Verdi and Wagner had a sense of drama and could convey powerful emotions through their music.  Both wrote one hit opera after the next.  Verdi's mature operas are true masterpeices (Otello, Aida, Falstaff, Rigolleto, Don Carlo,  La Traviata to name a few) as are Wagner's (The Ring Cycle, Tristan und Isolde, Meistersingers, Parsifal, Tannhauser even Lohengrin and The Flying Dutchman).  I own a little under 50 operas, 11 from Wagner and 10 from Verdi (my collection is lop-sided   :)) 


    I will change my avatar to something related to Wagner some day in the near future  :)

   marvin


I was right with you on Vedi and Wagner back when you wrote this, and I remain so today. After my being obsessed with Wagner so much recently, I threw on La Traviata and Otello last week. And was again full of admiration. I think both Wagner and Verdi each pushed each other. Otello shows Wagner's influence just as much as Gotterdammerung and Parsifal show Verdi.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on February 26, 2008, 05:07:48 AM
Quote from: Haffner on February 26, 2008, 03:11:08 AM

I was right with you on Vedi and Wagner back when you wrote this, and I remain so today. After my being obsessed with Wagner so much recently, I threw on La Traviata and Otello last week. And was again full of admiration. I think both Wagner and Verdi each pushed each other. Otello shows Wagner's influence just as much as Gotterdammerung and Parsifal show Verdi.

  It is very difficult for me to imagine my music collection without Verdi and Wagner.  It seems my whole musical universe rotates around those two composers with Wagner being the more addictive of the two at the moment....at the moment.  I believe in the concept of opera with a symphonic score and a highly dramatic element.  That to me is the ultimate in artistic musical expression- "Total Art Work" 0:).

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on February 26, 2008, 05:25:24 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on February 26, 2008, 05:07:48 AM
  It is very difficult for me to imagine my music collection without Verdi and Wagner.  It seems my whole musical universe rotates around those two composers with Wagner being the more addictive of the two at the moment....at the moment.  I believe in the concept of opera with a symphonic score and a highly dramatic element.  That to me is the ultimate in artistic musical expression- "Total Art Work" 0:).

  marvin



I have to agree. I have a degree in Creative Writing, but I personally feel that even Shakespeare is trumped on every level by the great operas/music dramas. I tried re-reading Shakepeare's Otello after having experienced the incredible Verdi opera, and found it sorely lacking. La Traviata, Rigoletto, Otello, The Ring, Parsifal, etc. just seem to strike deeper. But maybe that's just me.

The great writers like Poe, Hemingway, Joyce, Mailer, Vonnegut, etc. remain superior overall to the great librettists in terms of literature. However, when someone like Mozart, Verdi, Richard Strauss, or Wagner couples music with an above average libretto, the effect completely puts the former mentioned greats of literature out of the running. "Total Art Form", indeed.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Chaszz on March 02, 2008, 07:20:41 PM
Quote from: Haffner on February 26, 2008, 05:25:24 AM


I have to agree. I have a degree in Creative Writing, but I personally feel that even Shakespeare is trumped on every level by the great operas/music dramas. I tried re-reading Shakepeare's Otello after having experienced the incredible Verdi opera, and found it sorely lacking. La Traviata, Rigoletto, Otello, The Ring, Parsifal, etc. just seem to strike deeper. But maybe that's just me.

The great writers like Poe, Hemingway, Joyce, Mailer, Vonnegut, etc. remain superior overall to the great librettists in terms of literature. However, when someone like Mozart, Verdi, Richard Strauss, or Wagner couples music with an above average libretto, the effect completely puts the former mentioned greats of literature out of the running. "Total Art Form", indeed.

I heard yesterday on the Met broadcast of Otello that the libretto is only one-quarter as long as the original play! This may account for Otello's appeal in contrast with Othello. I think with Macbeth the situation is reversed. I find the play superior to the opera, which to me is long-winded. IMO, the best classical tragedies are short and unfold quickly, like machines. This goes for Sophocles' Oedipus Rex, Aeschylus' Agamemnon, and Macbeth, which I feel are perfect tragic plays. I don't think any of these need fear comparison with any opera. So the differentiation might be in the specific play or opera, rather than in a generalization about either form being better than the orher.   

I think you also have to consider that you are reading the text of the play but hearing a performance of the opera rather than reading the score. A vital performance might make any play stronger than in the reading of it.   
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on March 03, 2008, 06:26:16 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31KptO%2BV3qL._AA240_.jpg)

This is a disc with a difference; I am not sure it is a positive difference. Here the four opera are treated as though they were a symphony. So instead of getting the absolutely expected bits, the concept is to produce a symphonic structure. Siegfried is treated as the slow movement, Forest Murmurs and Brunhilde's awakening. Seemingly it makes a satisfying disc. It is topped off with the an arrangement of the Siegfried Idyll.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on March 03, 2008, 06:38:34 AM
Quote from: knight on March 03, 2008, 06:26:16 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31KptO%2BV3qL._AA240_.jpg)

This is a disc with a difference; I am not sure it is a positive difference. Here the four opera are treated as though they were a symphony. So instead of getting the absolutely expected bits, the concept is to produce a symphonic structure. Siegfried is treated as the slow movement, Forest Murmurs and Brunhilde's awakening. Seemingly it makes a satisfying disc. It is topped off with the an arrangement of the Siegfried Idyll.

Mike

  Good Lord Mike wherever did you find that recording  :o.  I often get accused of being a purist, refusing to listen to anything that's been altered from the state in which it was conceived- that said I am intrigued by that recording!  Do you own it? Have you heard it?  If yes how did you find it?

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on March 03, 2008, 07:10:13 AM
Marvin, no to all. It is on the list of new Chandos recordings. It was reviewed quite favourably in this month's Gramophone Mag.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on March 12, 2008, 06:08:53 AM


  I did not know where to post this so I figured here would be the best place.  As most of you who are reading this now probably know Tristan und Isolde is my favorite opera of all time. I have been addicted to the Furtwangler Flagstad recording from EMI for many years now convinced that it is unsurpassed. Well I just received in the post the following CD that I had ordered many weeks ago:

  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41XA381DV8L._SS500_.jpg)

  Now this is what it had say on the sticker that came on the CD- I am copying this word for word:

  By common consent, the finest live recording ever made of Tristan und Isolde. "Birgit Nilsson sings the Liebestod at the end of the long evening as though she was starting afresh, radiant and rising to an orgasmic climax...Opposite Nilsson is Wolfgang Windgassen, the most mellifluous of Heldentenoren"- Penguin Guide

  It is the three words "by common consent" that I found most daring if not audacious....by common consent..hmmm...Wagner fans I would like to ask you how many of you are consenting that this recording is the finest recording of Tristan und Isolde ever made??


  PS:  I shall listen to this recording with an open mind and ears  ;) this weekend!
  marvin   

 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 12, 2008, 06:12:41 AM
Don't know the Furtwängler yet (have it, but have delayed the pleasure of listening to it so far...)

But even so, the Böhm is excellent. I was completely overwhelmed by it when I heard it for the first time, more than 20 years ago.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 12, 2008, 07:30:49 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on March 12, 2008, 06:08:53 AM
It is the three words "by common consent" that I found most daring if not audacious....by common consent..hmmm...Wagner fans I would like to ask you how many of you are consenting that this recording is the finest recording of Tristan und Isolde ever made??

The finest live recording...maybe. It's well regarded by most Wagnerites. But the finest recording? No, I don't think so.

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Chaszz on March 25, 2008, 02:32:42 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on March 12, 2008, 06:08:53 AM

  I did not know where to post this so I figured here would be the best place.  As most of you who are reading this now probably know Tristan und Isolde is my favorite opera of all time. I have been addicted to the Furtwangler Flagstad recording from EMI for many years now convinced that it is unsurpassed. Well I just received in the post the following CD that I had ordered many weeks ago:

  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41XA381DV8L._SS500_.jpg)

  Now this is what it had say on the sticker that came on the CD- I am copying this word for word:

  By common consent, the finest live recording ever made of Tristan und Isolde. "Birgit Nilsson sings the Liebestod at the end of the long evening as though she was starting afresh, radiant and rising to an orgasmic climax...Opposite Nilsson is Wolfgang Windgassen, the most mellifluous of Heldentenoren"- Penguin Guide



  It is the three words "by common consent" that I found most daring if not audacious....by common consent..hmmm...Wagner fans I would like to ask you how many of you are consenting that this recording is the finest recording of Tristan und Isolde ever made??


  PS:  I shall listen to this recording with an open mind and ears  ;) this weekend!
  marvin   

 

This was my frst Tristan. It's been described as "incandescent" and "white hot," apt descriptions. When I discovered it I did little else for three weeks but listen to it over and over again, even taking days off from work to spend with it. It made such an impression on my psyche that other versions cannot touch it, although I can't know if I'm being objective or not.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 25, 2008, 02:38:25 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on March 12, 2008, 06:08:53 AM
I shall listen to this recording with an open mind and ears  ;) this weekend!
marvin   

What did you think, Marvin? And which other Tristans have you heard?

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on March 25, 2008, 03:16:10 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 25, 2008, 02:38:25 PM
What did you think, Marvin? And which other Tristans have you heard?

Sarge


  It overwhelmed me!!  Bohm's pace is a bit too fast for me, but he drives the music with intensity and the opera reaches "white hot" climaxes most notably in ACT 2 that are rarely heard on other recordings. When I compare it to Furtwangler's Tristan with Flagstad, Reiner's Tristan again with Flagstad, pictured below, and Barenboim's Tristan at Bayreuth DVD that Bohm recording's intensity is in a class all on its own.  At times I wished he would slow down a bit and let the music "breath" but that would have defeated the purpose- sweeping the listener away with waves of emotion. The Bohm recordsing is a MUST HAVE for any collection as the interpretation is truly unique but I feel that the Furtwangler Tristan is also required to provide a more balanced appreciation of this opera. This is the Reiner recording I was referring to above:
     
  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41YNB88ER4L._SS500_.jpg)

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 25, 2008, 03:42:24 PM
Great write-up, Marvin!

It's high time I listened to the Furtwängler, as the Böhm has always been my yard-stick... But 'Tristan' is a work that requires a certain mood which, at the moment, I can't summon.

Later.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on March 25, 2008, 04:58:44 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on March 25, 2008, 03:42:24 PM
Great write-up, Marvin!

It's high time I listened to the Furtwängler, as the Böhm has always been my yard-stick... But 'Tristan' is a work that requires a certain mood which, at the moment, I can't summon.

Later.

The Furtwangler is excellent all around. The 1st act knocks out in a big way. I have that, and the Kleiber and Barenboim. The Barenboim was also really good in the 1st act, but the 2nd just didn't make it for me.

I liked the Kleiber all the way through, but the sound wasn't exactly great. Really liked the singing on that one.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Chaszz on March 25, 2008, 05:42:17 PM
To me the love duet in the second act is the high point part of the work, and together with the Liebestod at the end of the opera (which is really a continuation of the love duet) reaches a plateau of genius few other musical works do. Can those who love other versions besides the Bohm recommend another love duet which can be compared with it? As I said above, my intense initiation at Bohm's hands has spoiled me for other versions, but perhaps it is time to make a good try!   
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on March 25, 2008, 11:10:17 PM
I think that the Kleiber studio recording succeeds well in providing a contrast to the Bohm. It is like a narcotic experience, a trance...which does not mean it is slow. But it has a lot of ebb and flow.

I enjoy the studio Karajan a great deal and his act 3 is singular due to the partnership with Vickers, that is an unusually intense experience.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on March 26, 2008, 02:49:32 AM
Quote from: knight on March 25, 2008, 11:10:17 PM
I think that the Kleiber studio recording succeeds well in providing a contrast to the Bohm. It is like a narcotic experience, a trance...which does not mean it is slow. But it has a lot of ebb and flow.

I enjoy the studio Karajan a great deal and his act 3 is singular due to the partnership with Vickers, that is an unusually intense experience.

Mike



Each act of the Kleiber has high points, but the 3rd really grabbed my attention forcefully. Even though I have trouble hearing the orchestra at times in the first two acts, the third is where everything came together on all levels.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 26, 2008, 03:50:12 AM
Quote from: Haffner on March 26, 2008, 02:49:32 AM


Each act of the Kleiber has high points, but the 3rd really grabbed my attention forcefully. Even though I have trouble hearing the orchestra at times in the first two acts, the third is where everything came together on all levels.

Invisible orchestra - fair enough.
Invisible theatre - the better option, often.
Inaudible orchestra- definitely not!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on March 26, 2008, 04:44:25 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on March 26, 2008, 03:50:12 AM
Invisible orchestra - fair enough.
Invisible theatre - the better option, often.
Inaudible orchestra- definitely not!


This is an excellent point.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on March 26, 2008, 11:17:51 AM
Quote from: Haffner on March 26, 2008, 02:49:32 AM


Each act of the Kleiber has high points, but the 3rd really grabbed my attention forcefully. Even though I have trouble hearing the orchestra at times in the first two acts, the third is where everything came together on all levels.

I am going to have to go back and listen to that recording. I thought there was a good balance with the orchestra. I have read that the recording was done without the two main singers being present in the studio at the same time. It sounds utterly unlikely to me. I would not have thought that Kleiber was the kind to allow this kind of arrangement.

I think Karajan countenanced it in his EMI Dutchman for at least some of the scenes, also I thought it was recorded over a period of about 18 months.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on March 26, 2008, 02:38:30 PM
Quote from: knight on March 26, 2008, 11:17:51 AM
I am going to have to go back and listen to that recording. I thought there was a good balance with the orchestra. I have read that the recording was done without the two main singers being present in the studio at the same time. It sounds utterly unlikely to me. I would not have thought that Kleiber was the kind to allow this kind of arrangement.

I think Karajan countenanced it in his EMI Dutchman for at least some of the scenes, also I thought it was recorded over a period of about 18 months.

Mike



Mike I think I might have unknowingly misrepresented myself. I was talking about the Kleiber Bayreuth performance. The sound is extremely sketchy, though the singing can be quite inspiring. I am now really curious as to the "other" Kleiber; the latter is a studio version? Forgive my duh-ness.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on March 26, 2008, 02:53:52 PM
No, that's OK. I thought it must be my ears, but the studio performance has beautiful sound. Todd knows all three of the Kleiber Tristans and recons both live ones are more exciting than the studio performance. That latter is the only of his performances I know.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Todd on March 27, 2008, 01:34:02 PM
Quote from: knight on March 26, 2008, 02:53:52 PMTodd knows all three of the Kleiber Tristans and recons both live ones are more exciting than the studio performance.


It's more accurate to state that I know three of the seven extant recordings of Tristan under Carlos, which are as follows:

Stuttgart, 1973
Vienna, 1973
Bayreuth, 1974
Bayreuth, 1975
Bayreuth, 1976
La Scala, 1978
Dresden, 1980-82 (DG, studio)


I may have to try one or two of the other options, poor sound be damned.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on March 27, 2008, 01:36:47 PM
Is anyone familiar with this dvd, and how does it hold up against the Bayreuth and Levine?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Expresso on March 28, 2008, 02:10:39 PM

Are there any good budget recordings of the Ring operas? Not necessarily from the same conductor.
Maybe Furtwangler or Kempe?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on March 28, 2008, 02:12:23 PM
Quote from: Expresso on March 28, 2008, 02:10:39 PM
Are there any good budget recordings of the Ring operas? Not necessarily from the same conductor.
Maybe Furtwangler or Kempe?



The Krauss Ring Cycle is really good, and relatively inexpensive.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on March 28, 2008, 03:04:15 PM
Quote from: Expresso on March 28, 2008, 02:10:39 PM
Are there any good budget recordings of the Ring operas? Not necessarily from the same conductor.
Maybe Furtwangler or Kempe?

  At one point in my collecting career I bought the Furtwangler RAI  Ring Cycle and paid £35 for it. I discovered that Furtwangler was a remarkable Wagnerian conductor but the less than stellar sound, orchestra (most notably the brass section) and cast have caused me to sell it and buy the Solti recording instead  :-\.  Draw whatever conclusions you may wish from my experience  :-\.

  marvin 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on March 29, 2008, 05:22:46 AM
Looks like they finally got around to releasing this (http://www.amazon.com/Herbert-Von-Karajan-Wagner-Rheingold/dp/B000YD7S12/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1206796487&sr=8-13) HVK Rheingold on DVD.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51U8Ag1njNL._AA240_.jpg)

The Amazon.com description unfortunately refers to the Chereau Ring (how they make that mistake is anybody's guess). But this Rheingold I saw the end on Youtube and it is excellent. Not sure whether in the future we'll get rest of the cycle.

Here is a link for the youtube cut:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns9Mh9XZZ6c
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on March 29, 2008, 05:28:38 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on March 29, 2008, 05:22:46 AM
Looks like they finally got around to releasing this (http://www.amazon.com/Herbert-Von-Karajan-Wagner-Rheingold/dp/B000YD7S12/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1206796487&sr=8-13) HVK Rheingold on DVD.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51U8Ag1njNL._AA240_.jpg)

The Amazon.com description unfortunately refers to the Chereau Ring (how they make that mistake is anybody's guess). But this Rheingold I saw the end on Youtube and it is excellent. Not sure whether in the future we'll get rest of the cycle.

Here is a link for the youtube cut:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns9Mh9XZZ6c



ooOOOOOOooo JA!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on March 29, 2008, 05:48:29 AM
Quote from: Haffner on March 29, 2008, 05:28:38 AM


ooOOOOOOooo JA!

Ja indeed my friend. Have you ever seen a more towering and authoritive looking Wotan than Stewart? And even from the limited sound on youtube you can't help but being bowled over by the titanic and burnished playing of the BP.

Anyway I can't wait to see the whole thing.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on March 29, 2008, 06:03:08 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on March 29, 2008, 05:48:29 AM
Ja indeed my friend. Have you ever seen a more towering and authoritive looking Wotan than Stewart? And even from the limited sound on youtube you can't help but being bowled over by the titanic and burnished playing of the BP.

Anyway I can't wait to see the whole thing.




It went immediately on my wish list before I even went on youtube, thank you so much!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wendell_E on March 29, 2008, 06:55:06 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on March 29, 2008, 05:22:46 AM
Not sure whether in the future we'll get rest of the cycle.

Rheingold was the only one that was filmed. 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on March 29, 2008, 10:56:50 AM
Ach! Those Rhein Töchter!  ::) - Naughty Herbert!  >:D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Harry on March 29, 2008, 11:02:30 AM
Well this looks the place where a good and inexpensive Ring cycle could be recommended.........
I am waiting you Wagner addicts.
In a short time I will start with a cd Johan, (Jezetha) will send me, with Choir works or excerpts from Wagners operas.
What next I wonder? :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 29, 2008, 11:10:24 AM
Quote from: Harry on March 29, 2008, 11:02:30 AM
In a short time I will start with a cd Johan, (Jezetha) will send me, with Choir works or excerpts from Wagners operas.

Choral highlights from Flying Dutchman, Tannhäuser, Lohengrin, Meistersinger, Götterdämmerung and Parsifal - a wonderful collection, that hopefully will spur you on and on into deeper Wagnerian territory...  :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Expresso on March 29, 2008, 11:46:48 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on March 28, 2008, 03:04:15 PM
  At one point in my collecting career I bought the Furtwangler RAI  Ring Cycle and paid £35 for it. I discovered that Furtwangler was a remarkable Wagnerian conductor but the less than stellar sound, orchestra (most notably the brass section) and cast have caused me to sell it and buy the Solti recording instead  :-\.  Draw whatever conclusions you may wish from my experience  :-\.

  marvin 


Quote from: Haffner on March 28, 2008, 02:12:23 PM


The Krauss Ring Cycle is really good, and relatively inexpensive.

I'll check some samples from those options, thanks.


Solti's Wagner is way too expensive! I'll probably buy it too sometime in the future, but at the moment i need an cheaper introduction to the Ring. It doesn't have to be a Ring cycle from the same conductor.


What do you think of this one?
Karajan's Die Meistersinger from '51.

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/9575668?rk=classic&rsk=hitlist

Is this a live recording? The sample clips sound very good.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on March 29, 2008, 11:49:54 AM
Quote from: Expresso on March 29, 2008, 11:46:48 AM


Karajan's Die Meistersinger from '51.

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/9575668?rk=classic&rsk=hitlist

Is this a live recording? The sample clips sound very good.


I sampled over half of it, and was impressed. But the older Solti recording was better, and not very expensive either.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on March 29, 2008, 11:54:51 AM
That Meistersingers is live. There is a fair bit of stage noise, but lots of compensations.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on March 29, 2008, 11:57:05 AM
Quote from: knight on March 29, 2008, 11:54:51 AM
That Meistersingers is live. There is a fair bit of stage noise, but lots of compensations.


I agree.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on March 29, 2008, 12:02:24 PM
Lots of clodhopping.....funny in a way. I can imagine what it looked like. Schwarzkopf is especially terrific.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 30, 2008, 05:18:50 AM
Quote from: Expresso on March 28, 2008, 02:10:39 PM
Are there any good budget recordings of the Ring operas? Not necessarily from the same conductor.
Maybe Furtwangler or Kempe?

Either of these is a "good" Ring at a super budget price:

LEVINE (http://www.amazon.ca/Ring-Nibelungen-Wagner-Levine/dp/B000GYI2U0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1206881574&sr=1-1) $35 (€22)

or

NEUHOLD (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/8976736?rk=classic&rsk=hitlist) €14 ($22)


Neuhold is a decent provincial production in very good sound (and it's a steal, literally, at that price). Levine has its pros and cons concerning the cast, and some think his tempos too sluggish but the Götterdämmerung is a serious contender for best ever....and the Met orchestra is phenomenal.

Moralt's is a truly great Ring from the golden age but the physical production and presentation (no pauses between acts and scenes, no booklet, no notes, no libretto, not even a cast list) are horrid; a Ring not for the Ring neophyte. Furtwängler must be heard at some point but I don't think either of his Rings is a good beginner's Ring. Kempe is unknown to me. Depending on how much you want to spend, Krauss is excellent but the sound quality isn't nearly as good as Neuhold or Levine. Better cast though.


Sarge

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on March 31, 2008, 08:11:57 AM
Quote from: Haffner on March 29, 2008, 06:03:08 AM



It went immediately on my wish list before I even went on youtube, thank you so much!
You may have found it already but here are a few more clips:

This one where Wotan first encounters the giants:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4jSLtUvHxgQ&feature=related
(notice how HVK got singers that LOOK the part too - the beautiful Brigitte Fassbaender and Jeannine Altmeyer)

The transition to Nibelheim:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=cCXxr44gh0U&feature=related

And this one where Wotan first encounters Alberich:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Exw_gaLsRQQ&feature=related

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 30, 2008, 05:18:50 AM
Levine has its pros and cons concerning the cast, and some think his tempos too sluggish but the Götterdämmerung is a serious contender for best ever....and the Met orchestra is phenomenal.

As good as the MET Orchestra sounds in that recording, it must be heard live to appreciate how fabulous this group is under Levine (you can probably say that about a lot of orchestras). The cellos and viola sections are intoxicatingly beautiful, while the trumpets and trombones can maintain quite a refined sound and are capable of the greatest dynamic contrasts. Also with this group you always get absolute rhythmic clarity. The rest of the winds are just as good. The flutes especially are bright and clear, none of the breathy flute sound you get with some American orchestras.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Anne on March 31, 2008, 03:08:15 PM
Is the Levine still available from amazon.ca?  I think it only cost $40 in honor of the fact that Canada was presenting its first Ring last year.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Harry on April 04, 2008, 04:36:29 AM
Following Sarge's advice in the purchase of the Ring from Wagner, I also add a few things of my own, about 60 Wagner cd's, to start with. ;D
13 Ring cd's.
44 cd's of all of Wagners operas.... :o ;D

See here the contents

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/2309181?rk=classic&rsk=hitlist&page=3

But no libretti though, so suggestions where to download them would be fine in the thread about libretti......
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Harry on April 04, 2008, 04:37:26 AM
And this one, just for the fun of it....
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 04, 2008, 04:55:17 AM
Quote from: Anne on March 31, 2008, 03:08:15 PM
Is the Levine still available from amazon.ca?

Not directly but there is one seller offering it new for the cheap price.

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on April 04, 2008, 05:39:11 AM
Quote from: Harry on April 04, 2008, 04:36:29 AM
Following Sarge's advice in the purchase of the Ring from Wagner, I also add a few things of my own, about 60 Wagner cd's, to start with. ;D
13 Ring cd's.
44 cd's of all of Wagners operas.... :o ;D

See here the contents

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/2309181?rk=classic&rsk=hitlist&page=3

But no libretti though, so suggestions where to download them would be fine in the thread about libretti......



Harry this is a very good site, with all kinds of libretti di Wagner:

http://www.rwagner.net/opere/e-t-ring.html (http://www.rwagner.net/opere/e-t-ring.html)


When I first started listening to Wagner (the excellent Toscanini compilation, back in 2000), I was immensely intimidated. I didn't want to admit to myself that the works were over my head; that they required alot of patience and study. When I went back to Wagner last Spring 2007, I was again heavily intimidated.

What changed me was my driving passion for music. To really reap the seemingly endless benefits of more complex works, I have to always remember to open myself up as thoroughly as possible; that is, to focus (which can take effort).

I probably don't have to tell you, Harry, that the benefits from such an opening-up are literally off the scale. You get far more than what you put into Wagner's work. Or into great, involved music in general.

You know,

Our Music.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 04, 2008, 05:43:57 AM
Quote from: Harry on April 04, 2008, 04:36:29 AM
Following Sarge's advice in the purchase of the Ring from Wagner, I also add a few things of my own, about 60 Wagner cd's, to start with.
13 Ring cd's.
44 cd's of all of Wagners operas....

:P ;D :)

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on April 04, 2008, 05:45:29 AM
Wait 'till you start getting into the libretto and music of sacred Parsifal!!!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Harry on April 04, 2008, 05:48:39 AM
Quote from: Haffner on April 04, 2008, 05:39:11 AM


Harry this is a very good site, with all kinds of libretti di Wagner:

http://www.rwagner.net/opere/e-t-ring.html (http://www.rwagner.net/opere/e-t-ring.html)


When I first started listening to Wagner (the excellent Toscanini compilation, back in 2000), I was immensely intimidated. I didn't want to admit to myself that the works were over my head; that they required alot of patience and study. When I went back to Wagner last Spring 2007, I was again heavily intimidated.

What changed me was my driving passion for music. To really reap the seemingly endless benefits of more complex works, I have to always remember to open myself up as thoroughly as possible; that is, to focus (which can take effort).

I probably don't have to tell you, Harry, that the benefits from such an opening-up are literally off the scale. You get far more than what you put into Wagner's work. Or into great, involved music in general.

You know,

Our Music.

Thanks Andy for the libretti link, that's cool, I will print them right away.
And of course when I start with Wagner, I will be off line for a long time, and when I will be back again, well god knows.....
But your comments are appreciated, afterall, you are a experienced Wagner adept. :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Harry on April 04, 2008, 05:49:33 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on April 04, 2008, 05:43:57 AM
:P ;D :)



The first Smiley I understood Johan, but could you explain the two others? ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Harry on April 04, 2008, 05:50:50 AM
Quote from: Haffner on April 04, 2008, 05:45:29 AM
Wait 'till you start getting into the libretto and music of sacred Parsifal!!!

Well the printer is doing its job right now, and before I start listening, I will absorb the libretti first and foremost, and read my way through his life...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 04, 2008, 05:54:27 AM
Quote from: Harry on April 04, 2008, 05:49:33 AM
The first Smiley I understood Johan, but could you explain the two others? ;D

Well,  ;D means 'You'll laugh your head off, Wagner is soooo funny!' and  :) means 'I am very glad for you'.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Harry on April 04, 2008, 06:03:54 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on April 04, 2008, 05:54:27 AM
Well,  ;D means 'You'll laugh your head off, Wagner is soooo funny!' and  :) means 'I am very glad for you'.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ::) :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on April 04, 2008, 07:11:49 AM
Quote from: Harry on April 04, 2008, 06:03:54 AM
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ::) :)



I believe he meant that operas like Siegfried and Die Meistersinger are often very funny. The latter in particular is just generally good-hearted and Affirming.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 04, 2008, 07:28:24 AM
Quote from: Haffner on April 04, 2008, 07:11:49 AM


I believe he meant that operas like Siegfried and Die Meistersinger are often very funny. The latter in particular is just generally good-hearted and Affirming.

I was joking a bit. I don't think Wagner is the laugh-out-loud humourist among opera composers, BUT - I think Das Rheingold is Wagner's best play, and Loge Wagner's wittiest character; and some scenes in Meistersinger (the serenading Beckmesser interrrupted by Sachs, and Beckmesser, again, caught in the act (of theft) by Sachs) are funny. I don't find, on the other hand, the Wanderer in Siegfried a scream in his dealings with Mime, nor is Hagen a hoot (though he does hoot  ;) ) when he summons Gibich's men in Götterdämmerung...

Wagner, mostly, is serious business.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: duncan on April 04, 2008, 02:25:09 PM
The Testament website has downloadable .pdfs of The Ring libretti here (http://"http://www.testament.co.uk/default.aspx?PageID=7").
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Harry on April 04, 2008, 11:45:24 PM
Quote from: duncan on April 04, 2008, 02:25:09 PM
The Testament website has downloadable .pdfs of The Ring libretti here (http://"http://www.testament.co.uk/default.aspx?PageID=7").

That would be fine Duncan, but I get a blank when I go to here! ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 05, 2008, 01:31:26 AM
Quote from: Harry on April 04, 2008, 11:45:24 PM
That would be fine Duncan, but I get a blank when I go to here! ;D

http://www.testament.co.uk/default.aspx?PageID=7"

I checked. But I don't think those pdf's are very readable...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on April 05, 2008, 10:47:02 AM
I would like to recommend this EMI issue

Les introuvables du Ring

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wagner-Introuvables-du-Ring-Richard/dp/B000005GQX/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1207419809&sr=1-1

These four discs bring together a number of excerpts from The Ring in dispirate and desirable performances. They range from Flagstaff through to Dernsch. Some of these performances have not been widely available. A long time ago on a Classics for Pleasure LP, I first encountered Kempe's experts of Rheingold. Here was a lyrical, warm and impulsive concept, clear textures and plenty of drama where it is called for. It at once became and has remained my favourite interpretation of this music; but only a LP's worth of music was recorded. This whets my appetite for the possibility of Testament issuing a complete live Kempe Covent Garden Ring.

It was fantastic news when Kempe became the conductor of the BBC Sym Orch. in London. My choir was slated to perform with him; a genuinely exciting prospect for us. He unexpectedly died at a fairly early age and a lot of potential years of great music making vanished.

The discs do not stick to trotting through all the expected passages, though they come close in Gotterdammerung. But apart from Rheingold, each opera is covered by various performers.

Walkure gets a lion's share and includes the ending in two versions. One has Fischer Dieskau conducted by Kubelik. Act 1 of Walkure is given complete, conducted by Klemperer. Very different from Walter in his famous performance, this is more stately, but not slow. Dernsch is caught in good voice and William Cochran sounded promising in 1970. Sotin makes up the third cast member and is in his element.

After that we get the second version of the close; Nilsson young and already in 1957 well into her stride, her father is none other than Hotter at his best. Leopold Ludwig was the underrated conductor.

Other names involved include Svanholm, Bohm, Swallisch, Frick, Konwitchny and Josef Metternich.

You do not learn the operas from this set, but you will hear a stupendous number of performers, legends some of them, and the set has given me enormous pleasure for some years.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Harry on April 05, 2008, 10:55:23 AM
Quote from: knight on April 05, 2008, 10:47:02 AM
I would like to recommend this EMI issue

Les introuvables du Ring

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wagner-Introuvables-du-Ring-Richard/dp/B000005GQX/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1207419809&sr=1-1

These four discs bring together a number of excerpts from The Ring in dispirate and desirable performances. They range from Flagstaff through to Dernsch. Some of these performances have not been widely available. A long time ago on a Classics for Pleasure LP, I first encountered Kempe's experts of Rheingold. Here was a lyrical warm and impulsive concept, clear textures and plenty of drama where it is called for. It at once become and has remained my favourite interpretation of this music; but only a LPs worth of music was recorded. This whets my appetite for the possibility of Testament issuing a complete live Kempe Covent Garden Ring.

It was fantastic news when Kempe became the conductor of the BBC Sym Orch. in London. My choir was slated to perform with him a genuinely exciting prospect; he unexpectedly died at a fairly early age and a lot of potential years of great music making vanished.

The discs do not stick to trotting through all the expected passages, though they come close in Gotterdammerung. But apart from Rheingold, each opera is covered by various performers.

Walkure gets a lion's share and includes the ending in two versions. One has Fischer Dieskau conducted by Kubelik. Act 1 of Walkure is given complete, conducted by Klemperer. Very different from Walter in his famous performance, this is more stately, but not slow. Dernsch is caught in good voice and William Cochran sounded promising in 1970. Sotin makes up the third cast member and is in his element.

After that we get the second version of the close; Nilsson young and already in 1957 well into her stride, her father is none other than Hotter at his best. Leopold Ludwig was the underrated conductor.

Other names involved include Svanholm, Bohm, Swallisch, Frick, Konwitchny and Josef Metternich.

You do not learn the operas from this set, but you will hear a stupendous number of performers, legends some of them, and the set has given me enormous pleasure for some years.

Mike

I added this one on my list, heck only 64 Wagner cd's, in a first attempt, another 4 won't go amiss right? :)
By the way Mike, I simply love the Verdi you send me, thanks again.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on April 05, 2008, 11:10:19 AM
Harry, A pleasure. These are in the main recordings more from the era thet you are in sympathetic towards. I did read about your Wagner splurge. You do throw yourself into the deep end! From more or less no opera to great gouts of it in almost one leap.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Harry on April 05, 2008, 11:23:17 AM
Quote from: knight on April 05, 2008, 11:10:19 AM
Harry, A pleasure. These are in the main recordings more from the era thet you are in sympathetic towards. I did read about your Wagner splurge. You do throw yourself into the deep end! From more or less no opera to great gouts of it in almost one leap.

Mike

Yes, that's me, my wife almost asked me politely to go and see a doctor..... :)
After seeing Boris with the girls, I was sold.......
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: rw1883 on April 05, 2008, 02:13:27 PM
This has been recently released:

http://www.allegro-music.com/online_catalog.asp?sku_tag=OPD31501 (http://www.allegro-music.com/online_catalog.asp?sku_tag=OPD31501)

Has anyone heard this yet?  I never bought the EMI set, but I do have the Gebhardt.  From what I remember the sound on the Gebhardt is decent, but for only $44 I will have to buy!

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on April 05, 2008, 02:48:51 PM
Quote from: rw1883 on April 05, 2008, 02:13:27 PM
This has been recently released:

http://www.allegro-music.com/online_catalog.asp?sku_tag=OPD31501 (http://www.allegro-music.com/online_catalog.asp?sku_tag=OPD31501)

Has anyone heard this yet?  I never bought the EMI set, but I do have the Gebhardt.  From what I remember the sound on the Gebhardt is decent, but for only $44 I will have to buy!



Here is the cast according the allegro website for the La Scala Ring:

Featured Artists
Birgit Nilsson, Set Svanholm, Ferdinand Frantz: vocal soloists
Günther Treptow, Max Lorenz, Elisabeth Höngen, Ludwig Weber: vocal soloists
Orchestra & Chorus of La Scala, Milan
Wilhelm Furtwängler: conductor


What did Birgit Nilsson do in that cycle? I don't remember her being in it. Being it was 1950 she must have been a neophyte then.

Anyway I have the Gebhardt release. The sound is okay as in barely listenable without hurting your ears. The loud passages still sound distorted and the audience sound like they are having a party in the background. The orchestra is rarely together. The singing I suppose is pretty good. But all in all I find this an extremely overrated release. If you already have the Genbardt release of this cycle I don't see why you want to spend $$$ on this release.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on April 05, 2008, 08:45:42 PM
Quote from: knight on April 05, 2008, 10:47:02 AM
After that we get the second version of the close; Nilsson young and already in 1957 well into her stride, her father is none other than Hotter at his best. Leopold Ludwig was the underrated conductor.

EMI just put out the Hotter/Nilsson arias/duets disc. It has the whole of the two Testament releases.

Not bad, and it is worth it for catching Hotter in his prime for the Walküre stuff, as opposed to Solti's capture of his voice on the downward slide.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wendell_E on April 05, 2008, 09:49:15 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 05, 2008, 02:48:51 PM
Here is the cast according the allegro website for the La Scala Ring:
What did Birgit Nilsson do in that cycle? I don't remember her being in it. Being it was 1950 she must have been a neophyte then.

Nilsson didn't make her La Scala debut until 1958.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: rubio on May 01, 2008, 03:13:17 AM
How is this book as an introduction to Wagner's world? It includes a couple of CD's with music examples - a thing I can appreciate.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JXV0VVN0L._SL500_BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_.jpg)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on May 01, 2008, 12:40:19 PM
Quote from: rubio on May 01, 2008, 03:13:17 AM
How is this book as an introduction to Wagner's world? It includes a couple of CD's with music examples - a thing I can appreciate.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JXV0VVN0L._SL500_BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_.jpg)



That one is pretty cool; just don't buy it at the stores! Amazon probably has it pretty cheap, and it's possible you won't need a brand new copy anyway.


Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 20, 2008, 04:10:21 AM
Here's an incredible bargain for the Wagner neophyte...or any Wagnerian interested in one or more of these performances from Bayreuth (recordings between 1961-1985): ten operas, 33 CDs for €40, including the '66 Böhm Tristan and Ring. I might get it just for the super-slow Levine Parsifal which I've never heard.

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/1925450


Sarge

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Harry on May 20, 2008, 04:29:39 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 20, 2008, 04:10:21 AM
Here's an incredible bargain for the Wagner neophyte...or any Wagnerian interested in one or more of these performances from Bayreuth (recordings between 1961-1985): ten operas, 33 CDs for €40, including the '66 Böhm Tristan and Ring. I might get it just for the super-slow Levine Parsifal which I've never heard.

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/1925450


Sarge



Good, it was already on my order list. ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Tsaraslondon on May 20, 2008, 05:55:33 AM
Quote from: knight on April 05, 2008, 10:47:02 AM
I would like to recommend this EMI issue

Les introuvables du Ring

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wagner-Introuvables-du-Ring-Richard/dp/B000005GQX/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1207419809&sr=1-1



Anyone who is interested in the above set will no doubt find this one indispensable too.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wagner-Introuvables-Richard/dp/B000002S2M/ref=sr_1_26?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1211290687&sr=1-26 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wagner-Introuvables-Richard/dp/B000002S2M/ref=sr_1_26?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1211290687&sr=1-26)

which is available second hand at a pathetically low price of £12. There is some marvellous singing in this one too. Marjorie Lawrence, an Australian singer active in France during the 1930s proved a major discovery for me. Though considered a mezzo (or more properly falcon), her Brunnhilde (in French) is fantastic. The last track on the final CD is of a magnificent Immolation scene.

CD1 has excerpts from Der fliegende Hollander and Die Meistersinger, and features such singers as Rethberg, Nilsson, Hotter, Schorr, Lemnitz and Elisabeth Schumann.
CD2 concentrates on Tannhauser and Lohengrin (Lorenz, Reining, Janssen, Husch, Flagstad, Rethberg, Pertile, Lotte Lehmann, Hina Spani, Roswaenge etc)
CD3 Tristan und Isolde and Parsifal (Leider, Melchior, Seinemeyer, Lubin, Kipnis, Schorr etc)
CD4 Der Ring (Lawrence, Journet, Nissen, Leider, Lubin, Austral, Widdop, Weber etc) I don't know if there is any duplication with the set recommended by Mike.



Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on May 21, 2008, 03:09:30 PM


  HAPPY BIRTHDAY RICHARD WAGNER!!  It is midnight here in London and officially the 22nd of May! 

  What a glorious day in the history of opera.  Richard Wagner was born in Leipzig on May 22, 1813! Years later he was to take the opera world by storm  0:)! 

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 21, 2008, 03:32:35 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on May 21, 2008, 03:09:30 PM

  HAPPY BIRTHDAY RICHARD WAGNER!!  It is midnight here in London and officially the 22nd of May! 

  What a glorious day in the history of opera.  Richard Wagner was born in Leipzig on May 22, 1813! Years later he was to take the opera world by storm  0:)!

Yes, a day to remember. One of my heroes.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on May 21, 2008, 07:16:06 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 20, 2008, 04:10:21 AM
Here's an incredible bargain for the Wagner neophyte...or any Wagnerian interested in one or more of these performances from Bayreuth (recordings between 1961-1985): ten operas, 33 CDs for €40, including the '66 Böhm Tristan and Ring. I might get it just for the super-slow Levine Parsifal which I've never heard.

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/1925450


Sarge

It looks like this is coming out in the States, or at least through ArkivMusic, in June. I'll be buying it for the Varviso Meistersinger, which has received very good reviews in the past, along with some of the other non-Ring/Tristan performances.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wendell_E on May 22, 2008, 02:32:32 AM
Quote from: PSmith08 on May 21, 2008, 07:16:06 PM
It looks like this is coming out in the States, or at least through ArkivMusic, in June.

It's also at amazon.com: Link (http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Great-Operas-Bayreuth-Festival/dp/B00159679S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1211452120&sr=1-1)


I'm tempted.  The only recording in the set I have is the Böhm Tristan.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on May 22, 2008, 07:14:47 AM
Quote from: Wendell_E on May 22, 2008, 02:32:32 AM
It's also at amazon.com: Link (http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Great-Operas-Bayreuth-Festival/dp/B00159679S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1211452120&sr=1-1)


I'm tempted.  The only recording in the set I have is the Böhm Tristan.

I am now pretty sure that if I traveled two months into the future, I'd find that I bought the set.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Kullervo on May 22, 2008, 07:23:23 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 20, 2008, 04:10:21 AM
Here's an incredible bargain for the Wagner neophyte...or any Wagnerian interested in one or more of these performances from Bayreuth (recordings between 1961-1985): ten operas, 33 CDs for €40, including the '66 Böhm Tristan and Ring. I might get it just for the super-slow Levine Parsifal which I've never heard.

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/1925450


Sarge



:o Wow! Do you know if libretti are included?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 22, 2008, 07:26:17 AM
Quote from: Corey on May 22, 2008, 07:23:23 AM
:o Wow! Do you know if libretti are included?
Are you kidding me? Of course NOT ! But if you are a diehard Wagnerian you should have the text to most of the operas (like Ring, Tristan, and Parsifal memorized already).

I ordered it from Amazon France a few weeks ago and the expected delivery date is like the end of June or something. Including shipping it costs about $60 which is about the same price you can get it at Amazon U.S. I guess but a few weeks ago Amazon U.S. doesn't have it.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Kullervo on May 22, 2008, 07:58:38 AM
Well, as I've yet to hear an entire Wagner opera, I'd think it be a bit of a stretch to call me a Wagnerian. :D The box seemed  like a cheap alternative to collecting separate recordings of each opera, but as there are no libretti, I think I will take the long way 'round.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on May 22, 2008, 08:04:02 AM
Quote from: Corey on May 22, 2008, 07:58:38 AM
Well, as I've yet to hear an entire Wagner opera, I'd think it be a bit of a stretch to call me a Wagnerian. :D The box seemed  like a cheap alternative to collecting separate recordings of each opera, but as there are no libretti, I think I will take the long way 'round.

The libretti are freely and abundantly available on the mighty Interweb or, for a nominal fee, in book form.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on May 22, 2008, 08:06:28 AM
Quote from: Corey on May 22, 2008, 07:58:38 AM
Well, as I've yet to hear an entire Wagner opera, I'd think it be a bit of a stretch to call me a Wagnerian. :D The box seemed  like a cheap alternative to collecting separate recordings of each opera, but as there are no libretti, I think I will take the long way 'round.

 Corey seeing as how you are new to Wagner I'd start with the Levine MET Ring on DVD.  Remember those operas were meant to be seen.  After repeated viewing you should start to link the music with the plot without the need for a libretto.  Then you can sit back, set your stereo volume on full blast and listen to the shear power, the phenomenal power of the SOLTI Ring on CD  0:). Gives me goosebumps just thinking about it  0:).

 marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MN Dave on May 22, 2008, 08:10:48 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on May 22, 2008, 08:06:28 AM
 Corey seeing as how you are new to Wagner I'd start with the Levine MET Ring on DVD.  Remember those operas were meant to be seen.  After repeated viewing you should start to link the music with the plot without the need for a libretto.  Then you can sit back, set your stereo volume on full blast and listen to the shear power, the phenomenal power of the SOLTI Ring on CD  0:). Gives me goosebumps just thinking about it  0:).

 marvin

Have you ever noticed that Marvin likes Wagner?  ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on May 22, 2008, 08:20:08 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on May 22, 2008, 08:10:48 AM
Have you ever noticed that Marvin likes Wagner?  ;D

   ;D 

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on May 22, 2008, 08:21:04 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on May 22, 2008, 08:10:48 AM
Have you ever noticed that Marvin likes Wagner?  ;D

Now that you mention it, I think MB does like Wagner.

Of course, he does the neophytes no favors by shilling the Solti Ring when Keilberth's Testament set from the 1955 Festspiele is so seductive and so available. Now, the real Solti connoisseurs know that the 1983 Tetralogy from Bayreuth is the one to 'find.' Peter Hall's staging might have flopped, but Solti's orchestral approach is even better than his Decca set - with the Bayreuth band and acoustic to boot. I'm hoping that Orfeo or Testament will get the rights to it for an official release.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on May 22, 2008, 12:14:45 PM
Quote from: PSmith08 on May 22, 2008, 08:21:04 AM
Now that you mention it, I think MB does like Wagner.

Of course, he does the neophytes no favors by shilling the Solti Ring when Keilberth's Testament set from the 1955 Festspiele is so seductive and so available. Now, the real Solti connoisseurs know that the 1983 Tetralogy from Bayreuth is the one to 'find.' Peter Hall's staging might have flopped, but Solti's orchestral approach is even better than his Decca set - with the Bayreuth band and acoustic to boot. I'm hoping that Orfeo or Testament will get the rights to it for an official release.

  Sorry PSmith08 but here you and I part company  :(.  That Solti Ring on Decca remains my all-time favorite Ring and I firmly believe that it is worth a listen!   I have heard a lot about Keilberth's Ring. Hans Hotter was at his best here and it is a live performance.  I am not sure what the sound is like, I doubt it is anywhere near as good as the Solti's Ring on Decca.  I think what is wonderfull is that there are so many COMPLETE Rings on the market to suit all tastes.  For me SOLTI's Decca studio recording of the Ring is as good as it gets.  To each his own I guess  :-\.

  marvin   
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 22, 2008, 12:35:08 PM
Quote from: PSmith08 on May 22, 2008, 08:21:04 AM
Now, the real Solti connoisseurs know that the 1983 Tetralogy from Bayreuth is the one to 'find.' Peter Hall's staging might have flopped, but Solti's orchestral approach is even better than his Decca set - with the Bayreuth band and acoustic to boot. I'm hoping that Orfeo or Testament will get the rights to it for an official release.
So on which pirate label would you find the '83 Solti cycle? Who is in the cast? I imagine a steady diet of Rene Kollo ?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on May 22, 2008, 02:39:38 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 22, 2008, 12:35:08 PM
So on which pirate label would you find the '83 Solti cycle? Who is in the cast? I imagine a steady diet of Rene Kollo ?

I found it on the mighty Interweb right here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,42.0.html). Solti only conducted the cycle for one season, leaving Peter Schneider (IIRC) to pick up the 1984 performances. Siegfried Jerusalem and Manfred Jung have the major tenor roles. Hildegard Behrens sings Brünnhilde. Siegmund Nimsgern has Wotan. The rest of the cast is at the link down the page a ways. It's a decidedly 1980s cast.

Quote from: marvinbrown on May 22, 2008, 12:14:45 PM
  Sorry PSmith08 but here you and I part company  :(.  That Solti Ring on Decca remains my all-time favorite Ring and I firmly believe that it is worth a listen!   I have heard a lot about Keilberth's Ring. Hans Hotter was at his best here and it is a live performance.  I am not sure what the sound is like, I doubt it is anywhere near as good as the Solti's Ring on Decca.  I think what is wonderfull is that there are so many COMPLETE Rings on the market to suit all tastes.  For me SOLTI's Decca studio recording of the Ring is as good as it gets.  To each his own I guess  :-\.

Well, the sound on the Keilberth Ring isn't nearly as contrived as Culshaw's super-stereo extravaganza, if that's what you mean. It has a more natural feel and perspective, but I can understand how others might prefer a more-engineered approach. It's a little raw and the stereo is 1955-vintage, but it does capture the Festspielhaus acoustic in a less in-your-face way. I think the Decca engineers used a single condenser stereo mike in the rafters to catch everything.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Anne on May 22, 2008, 09:33:18 PM
I have to agree with Marv that the easiest way to get into the Ring is via Levine's DVD set.  Libretto is on the screen for you and later if you no longer need the subtitles, you can turn them off.

In the beginning of Die Walkure, I had to stop and sort out who all these characters were.  Don't hesitate to ask if you have a question.  Enjoy your new adventure.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on May 23, 2008, 12:42:35 AM
Quote from: Anne on May 22, 2008, 09:33:18 PM
I have to agree with Marv that the easiest way to get into the Ring is via Levine's DVD set.  Libretto is on the screen for you and later if you no longer need the subtitles, you can turn them off.

In the beginning of Die Walkure, I had to stop and sort out who all these characters were.  Don't hesitate to ask if you have a question.  Enjoy your new adventure.

I went through a similar experience like you Anne. On numerous occasions I had to stop and rewind just to think things through and tie all the peices together.  I found myself wanting to know everything about the plot and the characters.  I wanted to be a part of the adventure and the Levine DVD provided me with an opportunity to do just that. I thought the set designs of the Levine MET production were just incredible and the libretto on the screen matching the singing made it easier and more enjoyable to follow the story line.
 
  marvin   
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ChamberNut on May 23, 2008, 05:09:57 AM
I am listening to my first full length Wagner opera.  For some reason, Das Rheingold in particular, piqued my interest, as I always enjoyed hearing the 'Entrance of the Gods into Valhalla'

I must say, I enjoyed it.  I just love the dramatic music!  And what a fantastic Prelude.

The CD recording I'm listening to, from the library is:

1958 Performance

Das Rheingold

Wieiner Philharmoniker
Sir Georg Solti
Decca London

:)

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on May 23, 2008, 05:43:25 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 23, 2008, 05:09:57 AM
I am listening to my first full length Wagner opera.  For some reason, Das Rheingold in particular, piqued my interest, as I always enjoyed hearing the 'Entrance of the Gods into Valhalla'

I must say, I enjoyed it.  I just love the dramatic music!  And what a fantastic Prelude.

The CD recording I'm listening to, from the library is:

1958 Performance

Das Rheingold

Wieiner Philharmoniker
Sir Georg Solti
Decca London

:)



  Wait until you get to Solti's Siegfried  0:)!  Solti really shines here! Just listen to Mime hammer away trying to fashion Notung from its fragments all to no avail of course! Later on you will come to Siegfried's  sword forging scene that gives me an adrenaline rush every time I hear it!  Without exaggeration Solti's Siegfried is filled with so much energy and power it will blow the roof off the top of any house  $:)!  Crank the volume up and let the neighbors complain that's what I say!  This is the only way to listen to the Solti Ring $:).  Happy Listening!

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on May 23, 2008, 05:48:18 AM
Quote from: PSmith08 on May 22, 2008, 02:39:38 PM
I found it on the mighty Interweb right here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,42.0.html). Solti only conducted the cycle for one season, leaving Peter Schneider (IIRC) to pick up the 1984 performances. Siegfried Jerusalem and Manfred Jung have the major tenor roles. Hildegard Behrens sings Brünnhilde. Siegmund Nimsgern has Wotan. The rest of the cast is at the link down the page a ways. It's a decidedly 1980s cast.


  PSmith08 I tried searching for this recording on amazon.com, amazon.co.uk, jpc, hmv etc. and I can not seem to find a recording of it anywhere.  Are they ever planning on releasing it to the public?

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 23, 2008, 05:55:41 AM
Quote from: PSmith08 on May 22, 2008, 02:39:38 PM
I found it on the mighty Interweb right here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,42.0.html). Solti only conducted the cycle for one season, leaving Peter Schneider (IIRC) to pick up the 1984 performances. Siegfried Jerusalem and Manfred Jung have the major tenor roles. Hildegard Behrens sings Brünnhilde. Siegmund Nimsgern has Wotan. The rest of the cast is at the link down the page a ways. It's a decidedly 1980s cast.

Well, the sound on the Keilberth Ring isn't nearly as contrived as Culshaw's super-stereo extravaganza, if that's what you mean. It has a more natural feel and perspective, but I can understand how others might prefer a more-engineered approach. It's a little raw and the stereo is 1955-vintage, but it does capture the Festspielhaus acoustic in a less in-your-face way. I think the Decca engineers used a single condenser stereo mike in the rafters to catch everything.
I see the cast here now in your link...not exactly the kind of cast that make you go nuts over. I can't listen to Manfred Jung, I am sorry...

I haven't heard Keiberth, perhaps when the price goes down a bit. I am not exactly hungry for another Ring right now.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ChamberNut on May 23, 2008, 09:35:51 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on May 23, 2008, 05:43:25 AM
  Wait until you get to Solti's Siegfried  0:)!  Solti really shines here! Just listen to Mime hammer away trying to fashion Notung from its fragments all to no avail of course! Later on you will come to Siegfried's  sword forging scene that gives me an adrenaline rush every time I hear it!  Without exaggeration Solti's Siegfried is filled with so much energy and power it will blow the roof off the top of any house  $:)!  Crank the volume up and let the neighbors complain that's what I say!  This is the only way to listen to the Solti Ring $:).  Happy Listening!

  marvin

Marvin,

Are you able to rank Richard's operas, from shortest to longest (approx.)?  One reason I also decided to check out 'Das Rheingold' first, was it's relative short length compared to some of his other operas.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: rubio on May 23, 2008, 10:05:25 AM
For the Ring of the Nibelung there exist some books with really good translations of the libretto from German to English, like the below one:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41P7C31S9QL._SL500_BO2,204,203,200_PIlitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_.jpg)

Does there exist some similar good translation book for the Meistersinger? The Meistersinger recordings I plan to buy, Kempe and Kubelik, do not include libretto in English.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on May 23, 2008, 11:54:55 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 23, 2008, 05:55:41 AM
I see the cast here now in your link...not exactly the kind of cast that make you go nuts over. I can't listen to Manfred Jung, I am sorry...

To tell the truth, neither could the audience. His 'Forging Song' was booed pretty roundly, but it's hard to tell how much of that was Jung and how much was Peter Hall. The '83 Ring is worth it for the orchestral conception. It's as powerful as the Decca set, but it's just slightly broader and grander. Really the best of both worlds.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Anne on May 23, 2008, 04:05:27 PM
I'm so glad you are buying that Kubelik Meistersinger.  It is very good.  The first 3 - 4 minutes of act 1 has a beautiful duet by just 2 instruments.  I hope you can find it.  The 3rd act prelude is wonderful.  I have listened to several other conductors' Meistersinger and they don't bring out the beauty of the music as well.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on May 24, 2008, 02:41:51 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 23, 2008, 09:35:51 AM
Marvin,

Are you able to rank Richard's operas, from shortest to longest (approx.)?  One reason I also decided to check out 'Das Rheingold' first, was it's relative short length compared to some of his other operas.

  Well the shortest operas are the earlier ones. But Wagner's best operas are his later mature ones (IE the longer ones).  I have ignored Wagner's first 2 operas The Fairies and The Ban on Love as I view them as experimental works.  This should give you a general idea.  My ratings designated by the * follow each operas.  I have assigned the angel 0:) to signify operas that are my absolute favorites!

  The Flying Dutchman: 2 hours 15 minutes ****
  The Rheingold:  2 hours 25 minutes *****  0:)
  Tannhauser: 3 hours 5 minutes  ****
  Lohengrin:  3 hours 15 minutes  *** (edit: add 1/2 *)
  Rienzi: 3 hours 35 minutes  ***
  Die Walkure: 3 hours 50 minutes *****  0:)
  Siegfried: 4 hours *****  0:)
  Parsifal: 4 hours  *****
  Tristan und Isolde: 4 hours 15 minutes  *****  0:)  (this is my favorite opera in the entire operatic repertoire!)
  Die Meistersinger: 4 hours 22 minutes   *****  0:)
  Gotterdammerung: 4 hours 30 minutes  *****   0:)

  How did I get these durations you ask??  From my itunes library of course!

  PS: Other Wagnerians on this forum are free to disagree with me of course!

  marvin
               

   
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Operahaven on May 24, 2008, 03:25:03 AM
Marvin,

Those would be my nominations as well...  :)   Btw, Gotterdammerung is a bit longer at 4 hours and  40  minutes... and not a single weak moment..  0:) 

Just curious to hear your reasons for omitting  Parsifal.

I do believe that it contains the most subtle and ravishing music he ever wrote but it also has more weak moments than the other mature operas, especially in Act 1 and 2. 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on May 24, 2008, 03:37:39 AM
Quote from: Operahaven on May 24, 2008, 03:25:03 AM
Marvin,

Those would be my nominations as well...  :)   Btw, Gotterdammerung is a bit longer at 4 hours and  40  minutes... and not a single weak moment..  0:) 

Just curious to hear your reasons for omitting  Parsifal.

I do believe that it contains the most subtle and ravishing music he ever wrote but it also has more weak moments than the other mature operas, especially in Act 1 and 2. 

  Parsifal is a great opera indeed don't get me wrong.  That's why I gave it 5 *.    However I find that I have to be in the mood to listen to it.  It's rather slow tempo and its subdued music require me to be in a very patient relaxed state of mind. So I tend to avoid it during the day and only listen to it in the early evening after I have had a glass of red wine.

  By the way which Gotterdammerung do you have, the Solti Gotterdammerung on Decca is 4 CDs with the following durations:
 
CD1: 1 hour 2 minutes,  CD 2: 57 minutes, CD3: 1 hour 7 minutes, CD4: 1 hour 17 minutes

  Total: 4 hours 23 minues to be exact!
 
marvin 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ChamberNut on May 24, 2008, 04:03:56 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on May 24, 2008, 02:41:51 AM
  Well the shortest operas are the earlier ones. But Wagner's best operas are his later mature ones (IE the longer ones).  I have ignored Wagner's first 2 operas The Fairies and The Ban on Love as I view them as experimental works.  This should give you a general idea.  My ratings designated by the * follow each operas.  I have assigned the angel 0:) to signify operas that are my absolute favorites!

  The Flying Dutchman: 2 hours 15 minutes ****
  The Rheingold:  2 hours 25 minutes *****  0:)
  Tannhauser: 3 hours 5 minutes  ****
  Lohengrin:  3 hours 15 minutes  ***
  Rienzi: 3 hours 35 minutes  ***
  Die Walkure: 3 hours 50 minutes *****  0:)
  Siegfried: 4 hours *****  0:)
  Parsifal: 4 hours  *****
  Tristan und Isolde: 4 hours 15 minutes  *****  0:)  (this is my favorite opera in the entire operatic repertoire!)
  Die Meistersinger: 4 hours 22 minutes   *****  0:)
  Gotterdammerung: 4 hours 30 minutes  *****   0:)

  How did I get these durations you ask??  From my itunes library of course!

  PS: Other Wagnerians on this forum are free to disagree with me of course!

  marvin
               

   

Thank you Marvin for posting those.  I will probably check out the remainder of The Ring operas next.   :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lethevich on May 24, 2008, 05:38:54 AM
PSmith08 - thanks for linking that Solti Ring, I missed it the first time round and I was surprised that the links are still active (and me DLing it all means they'll be active for one more month at least :)). The sound quality is very clear, even with mp3, meaning a potential CD release at some point will be very viable. The orchestra sounds immense in these recordings.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 24, 2008, 06:20:08 AM
Quote from: Lethe on May 24, 2008, 05:38:54 AM
PSmith08 - thanks for linking that Solti Ring, I missed it the first time round and I was surprised that the links are still active (and me DLing it all means they'll be active for one more month at least :)). The sound quality is very clear, even with mp3, meaning a potential CD release at some point will be very viable. The orchestra sounds immense in these recordings.

Seconded + I didn't know about them either.

Manuel must still have a Premium account (like I do), files don't have a time limit then.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wendell_E on May 24, 2008, 07:01:01 AM
Quote from: Operahaven on May 24, 2008, 03:25:03 AM
Btw, Gotterdammerung is a bit longer at 4 hours and  40  minutes... and not a single weak moment..  0:) 

Of course, it works this long, there'll be a bit of variation from conductor to conductor, and even from performance to performance in a run.

I would give Lohengrin more than three stars.  I mean, it's gotta have more than Rienzi!   ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on May 24, 2008, 08:33:31 AM
Quote from: Wendell_E on May 24, 2008, 07:01:01 AM
Of course, it works this long, there'll be a bit of variation from conductor to conductor, and even from performance to performance in a run.

I would give Lohengrin more than three stars.  I mean, it's gotta have more than Rienzi!   ;D

  OK I'm willing to meet you half way and bump it up by 1/2 a star to 3-1/2 stars, if only for the Here Comes the Bride tune!

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on May 24, 2008, 11:37:55 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on May 24, 2008, 08:33:31 AM
  OK I'm willing to meet you half way and bump it up by 1/2 a star to 3-1/2 stars, if only for the Here Comes the Bride tune!

  marvin

You might want to go back and listen to Lohengrin with fresh ears. It's better than you think, though it has more in common with grand opera than music drama.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on May 24, 2008, 12:42:13 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 24, 2008, 04:03:56 AM
Thank you Marvin for posting those.  I will probably check out the remainder of The Ring operas next.   :)

  Excellent idea.  Seeing as how you are already engaged in the adventure you might as well see it through. 

 

  marvin 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wendell_E on May 24, 2008, 04:19:48 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on May 24, 2008, 08:33:31 AM
  OK I'm willing to meet you half way and bump it up by 1/2 a star to 3-1/2 stars, if only for the Here Comes the Bride tune!

  marvin

:D Personally, I'd take away points for that tune, but Ortrud's music more than makes up for it.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on May 25, 2008, 01:53:18 AM
Quote from: Wendell_E on May 24, 2008, 04:19:48 PM
:D Personally, I'd take away points for that tune, but Ortrud's music more than makes up for it.

You must be referring to act 2, where Ortrud has that glorious monologue where she summons Wotan and the gods for revenge against Lohengrin and Elsa.  This is  the darkest act in that whole opera and one of my favorite scenes.  You see the trouble I have with Lohengrin is that I love Tannhauser and The Flying Dutchman so much that Lohengrin always finishes in 3rd Place. 

  One thing is for sure though, when it comes to ranking Wagner's operas I feel that I am spoiled for choice  ;D!

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Operahaven on May 25, 2008, 06:26:54 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on May 24, 2008, 03:37:39 AMBy the way which Gotterdammerung do you have ?

Marvin, I have the 1970 Karajan below:

(http://mira.bio.fpu.ac.jp/shiono/MUSIC/ring_karajan.jpg) * (http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B000001GC1.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)

CD 1 - 63.12

CD 2 -  70.86

CD 3 - 64.60

CD 4 - 69.02

And oops it was my mistake...     :-[   

It comes to  4 hours and 28 minutes
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Operahaven on May 25, 2008, 06:33:27 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on May 24, 2008, 08:33:31 AMOK I'm willing to meet you half way and bump it up by 1/2 a star to 3-1/2 stars, if only for the Here Comes the Bride tune!

Marvin,

Keep in mind also that the Prelude to  Lohengrin  alone is enough to qualify Wagner as one of the greatest musical geniuses... It is a miracle of inspiration and atmosphere.... absolute musical beauty at its best.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Chaszz on June 01, 2008, 09:06:29 AM
Quote from: Operahaven on May 24, 2008, 03:25:03 AM
Marvin,

...   Btw, Gotterdammerung is a bit longer at 4 hours and  40  minutes... and not a single weak moment..  0:) ...


Except for the plot.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on June 01, 2008, 09:31:45 AM
Quote from: Chaszz on June 01, 2008, 09:06:29 AM
Except for the plot.

Oh, I dunno...I always thought Wagner's plot was rather nice... ;D



(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1074/1306537421_a1df60b98d.jpg?v=0)



Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ChamberNut on June 23, 2008, 09:34:45 AM
I know Wagner purists may cringe, but I'm really enjoying the Symphonic Syntheses by Stokowski Naxos disc that I got over the weekend.  The Liebesnacht from Tristan und Isolde is particularly breathtaking.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: zamyrabyrd on July 08, 2008, 11:04:44 AM
A stunning performance by Callas as Isolde in the death scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Htsam9HddyI

Who needs supertitles, in fact, who even needs the right language with a voice and expression like this???

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Tsaraslondon on July 09, 2008, 01:43:58 AM
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on July 08, 2008, 11:04:44 AM
A stunning performance by Callas as Isolde in the death scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Htsam9HddyI

Who needs supertitles, in fact, who even needs the right language with a voice and expression like this???



And to think that this was recorded at the same sessions at which she recorded Elvira's Mad Scene from I Puritani, with immaculate coloratura and a stunning Eb in alt to finish!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzzIskhjpuk&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzzIskhjpuk&feature=related)

Apologies to those Wagner lovers, who can't take to Bellini. But, please remember that Wagner himself had enormous admiration for Bellini's Norma at least.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: rw1883 on July 09, 2008, 03:50:21 PM
Today I received "Wagner: The Great Operas from the Bayreuth Festival" on Decca (33-cd set).  I wish they would have picked another Ring and Tristan (I already own them, as do most Wagner fans), but for only $58 (CD universe) it's still well worth the price.  I'm happy the set includes the Sawallisch Dutchman/Tannhauser/Lohengrin which I never bought on Philips (was that the correct label?).  The main drawback is no libretti (they have track summaries instead), but for the price it's expected.  The set is packaged in a small box with cd-sleeves. 

For those that don't own the Bohm Ring/Tristan it's a steal and it's still available at CDuniverse.com for the sale price...http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=7664875&style=classical (http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=7664875&style=classical)

Paul

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on July 09, 2008, 07:41:50 PM
Does the set have the 1995 production of Tristan und Isolde with Siegfried Jerusalem and Waltraut Meier?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: rw1883 on July 09, 2008, 07:50:52 PM
Quote from: uffeviking on July 09, 2008, 07:41:50 PM
Does the set have the 1995 production of Tristan und Isolde with Siegfried Jerusalem and Waltraut Meier?


No, it's the 1966 Tristan with Windgassen & Nilsson with Bohm conducting.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: rw1883 on July 09, 2008, 08:28:45 PM
Just a little modification on the Wagner set mentioned above: the Rheingold and Siegfried are from 1971 and the Walkure and Gotterdammerung are from 1967.  On the original Philips release the whole set was from 1967.  So at least you get two different performances in the Ring.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wendell_E on July 10, 2008, 02:58:11 AM
Quote from: rw1883 on July 09, 2008, 08:28:45 PM
Just a little modification on the Wagner set mentioned above: the Rheingold and Siegfried are from 1971 and the Walkure and Gotterdammerung are from 1967.  On the original Philips release the whole set was from 1967.  So at least you get two different performances in the Ring.

The info on the Decca release is wrong.  Böhm didn't conduct the Ring in 1971, Horst Stein did, and Windgassen last sang at the festival in 1970.  Both the original Philips release and the new Decca one come from the 1966 and 1967 festivals.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 10, 2008, 03:29:01 AM
Quote from: rw1883 on July 09, 2008, 08:28:45 PM
Just a little modification on the Wagner set mentioned above: the Rheingold and Siegfried are from 1971 and the Walkure and Gotterdammerung are from 1967.  On the original Philips release the whole set was from 1967.  So at least you get two different performances in the Ring.

Quote from: Wendell_E on July 10, 2008, 02:58:11 AM
The info on the Decca release is wrong.  Böhm didn't conduct the Ring in 1971, Horst Stein did, and Windgassen last sang at the festival in 1970.  Both the original Philips release and the new Decca one come from the 1966 and 1967 festivals.

Wendell is correct. There's a misprint in the Decca booklet. Compare the casts in the Decca booklet with the Philips and you'll see they are identical; or compare a few tracks.

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on July 10, 2008, 03:33:41 AM
Hmm. The editor responsible for the mis-print must be one of them Wagner-Haters™, eh, Sarge?  8)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 10, 2008, 04:03:05 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 10, 2008, 03:33:41 AM
Hmm. The editor responsible for the mis-print must be one of them Wagner-Haters™, eh, Sarge?  8)

Indubitably...a tactic meant to sow confusion and dissension in the ranks.

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: rw1883 on July 10, 2008, 10:15:12 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 10, 2008, 03:29:01 AM
Wendell is correct. There's a misprint in the Decca booklet. Compare the casts in the Decca booklet with the Philips and you'll see they are identical; or compare a few tracks.

Sarge

Thanks for the correction about the years and casts for the Ring.  One question though, I always thought the Philips Ring was from 1967 only (at least that what the booklet states for all four operas).  Was that a misprint as well?

Paul
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wendell_E on July 10, 2008, 11:20:06 AM
Quote from: rw1883 on July 10, 2008, 10:15:12 AM
Thanks for the correction about the years and casts for the Ring.  One question though, I always thought the Philips Ring was from 1967 only (at least that what the booklet states for all four operas).  Was that a misprint as well?

Paul

As I understand it, Rheingold and Siegfried are from '66, the others from the next years festival.  I'm not sure why they did it that way (The later Boulez Ring was also from two consecutive years).  Gutrune's solo scene in Act III of Götterdämmerung was cut ( :o) in 1966, but restored in 1967, which would partially explain why the recording of that opera comes from 1967.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Tsaraslondon on July 12, 2008, 07:15:54 AM
May I make a slightly irreverent, but light hearted observation?

It seems to me that Wagner lovers are a rum lot. For instance, ZB posts a stunning version of Isolde's Liebestod, as sung by Callas in 1949 (at the tender age of 25), and not one person comments on it. Instead they all prattle on about whether Bohm's Ring was recorded in 1967 or 1968, or whether the Philips set was taken from two different series of performances. Do these people actually listen to the music, or do they just enjoy amassing performances of  Der Ring, a time consuming act in itself?

I ask this as someone who enjoys Wagner's music, but who doesn't have the evident passion for the composer that most of the posters in this topic have.






Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: rw1883 on July 12, 2008, 10:21:05 AM
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on July 12, 2008, 07:15:54 AM
May I make a slightly irreverent, but light hearted observation?

It seems to me that Wagner lovers are a rum lot. For instance, ZB posts a stunning version of Isolde's Liebestod, as sung by Callas in 1949 (at the tender age of 25), and not one person comments on it. Instead they all prattle on about whether Bohm's Ring was recorded in 1967 or 1968, or whether the Philips set was taken from two different series of performances. Do these people actually listen to the music, or do they just enjoy amassing performances of  Der Ring, a time consuming act in itself?

I ask this as someone who enjoys Wagner's music, but who doesn't have the evident passion for the composer that most of the posters in this topic have.









I'll take a stab at a relevant and light-hearted response :)...I've been collecting, or I prefer what you wrote, amassing Rings, Tristans, Hollanders, Lohengrins, Tannhausers, Meistersingers, Parsifals, and even a couple of Rienzis for about 12 years now.  I listen to all the recordings I amass numerous times so I can make a better decision on my favorite recordings, singers, and conductors.  That makes the years very important (again, to me) for my collecting (and hopefully not many duplications).

On to Callas, I remember listening to that performance around the time I fell for Wagner's music.  As you say it's an excellent interpretation, especially for her age.  But I find myself going to Leider, Flagstad, Seinemeyer, Traubel, Braun, Grob-Prandl, Modl, Nilsson, Jones, and even Meier over Callas in this particular opera.  It's very hard to get past the Italian translation, but that's just me being stubborn >:(

Now, time to prattle again... ;)

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on July 13, 2008, 01:33:29 PM
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on July 12, 2008, 07:15:54 AM
May I make a slightly irreverent, but light hearted observation?

It seems to me that Wagner lovers are a rum lot. For instance, ZB posts a stunning version of Isolde's Liebestod, as sung by Callas in 1949 (at the tender age of 25), and not one person comments on it. Instead they all prattle on about whether Bohm's Ring was recorded in 1967 or 1968, or whether the Philips set was taken from two different series of performances. Do these people actually listen to the music, or do they just enjoy amassing performances of  Der Ring, a time consuming act in itself?

I ask this as someone who enjoys Wagner's music, but who doesn't have the evident passion for the composer that most of the posters in this topic have.



  Tsaraslondon  8), no one doubts Callas' talents, that's not the issue here.  Personally I like to listen to complete recordings of Wagner's operas and in German.  I also have a tendency to reserve Callas for Verdi, Puccini, Donizetti, Bellini operas.  That does not mean that I do not recognize Callas' talents as a Wagnerian singer.  I will admit it has been a while since I heard Callas in a Wagnerian piece- I should be more attentive  $:)!

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Tsaraslondon on July 14, 2008, 01:04:26 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on July 13, 2008, 01:33:29 PM
  Tsaraslondon  8), no one doubts Callas' talents, that's not the issue here.  Personally I like to listen to complete recordings of Wagner's operas and in German.  I also have a tendency to reserve Callas for Verdi, Puccini, Donizetti, Bellini operas.  That does not mean that I do not recognize Callas' talents as a Wagnerian singer.  I will admit it has been a while since I heard Callas in a Wagnerian piece- I should be more attentive  $:)!

  marvin

Well that wasn't really my point. The link that ZB posted could have been to any singer really. I was commenting on the fact that she had posted a link to someone actually performing Wagner, and nobody had even commented on it, either to say they liked it or they didn't. Posters were more concerned with the provenance of Bohm's Bayreuth Ring and showing their Knowledge of recording dates. Am I alone in finding this a little anorak like?



Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Anne on July 14, 2008, 01:39:32 PM
We may have been remiss in thanking ZB and I will thank her now.  Thanks for your youtube recording, ZB.  I enjoyed it and didn't know it even existed.

I for one am very happy when others sort out dates as they did for Bohm's recordings.  I helps me learn things.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 14, 2008, 03:26:08 PM
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on July 12, 2008, 07:15:54 AM
May I make a slightly irreverent, but light hearted observation?

It seems to me that Wagner lovers are a rum lot. For instance, ZB posts a stunning version of Isolde's Liebestod, as sung by Callas in 1949 (at the tender age of 25), and not one person comments on it. Instead they all prattle on about whether Bohm's Ring was recorded in 1967 or 1968, or whether the Philips set was taken from two different series of performances. Do these people actually listen to the music, or do they just enjoy amassing performances of  Der Ring, a time consuming act in itself?

Who has time to listen to Wagner these days? I'm just a collector...that takes up enough of my time.

Seriously, I operate this way normally: if I have nothing good to say about something, I say nothing. I have no desire to rain on anyone's parade. But since you asked: I don't like Callas's Isolde. All one has to do is listen to Varnay or Flagstad or Norman or Nilsson's videos after Callas's to understand why I feel that way. But it was interesting to see (hear) the bear dancing.  ;)  I thank ZB for that.

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 14, 2008, 03:44:05 PM
Quote from: rw1883 on July 10, 2008, 10:15:12 AM
Thanks for the correction about the years and casts for the Ring.  One question though, I always thought the Philips Ring was from 1967 only (at least that what the booklet states for all four operas).  Was that a misprint as well?

Paul

For thirty-five years I've been under the impression this Ring was from 1967 (that's what the old Penguin Guides told me as did other reviews). I checked my box of LPs and although the books included are magnificent, they give no performance dates. The booklets in the old CD version I own don't either. This Bayreuth box is the first version of Böhm's Ring I've seen that does give dates. Should Rheingold and Siegfried be 1966? I don't know. Perhaps Wendell will explain.

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on July 14, 2008, 03:48:40 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 14, 2008, 03:26:08 PM
Who has time to listen to Wagner these days?

Nor I, Sarge.  Though I should like to, actually.

Not this side of August, I don't think.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 14, 2008, 03:52:21 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 14, 2008, 03:48:40 PM
Nor I, Sarge.  Though I should like to, actually.

Not this side of August, I don't think.

It's tough, even when one is retired, to find the three or four or more hours needed to give these works the attention they deserve. Webern is more user friendly  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on July 14, 2008, 06:34:06 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 14, 2008, 03:52:21 PM
Webern is more user friendly  ;D

The ideal composer for our busy modern lives.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on July 14, 2008, 08:03:48 PM
There are a few advantages to being retired and living alone: I make it a point to set aside each afternoon for my concert or opera or documentary watching. If Wagner is on the schedule, it's one act per day.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on July 15, 2008, 02:24:07 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 14, 2008, 03:52:21 PM
It's tough, even when one is retired, to find the three or four or more hours needed to give these works the attention they deserve. Webern is more user friendly  ;D

Sarge

  Sarge, I am surprised to tread this.  I have a career, have an active social life, am in a relationship and I still have time to sit and listen/watch a Wagnerian opera.  Usually I reserve the 5:00 -9:00 PM slot after work for Wagner.  That's a good 4 hours to appreciate my favorite composer (The Meistersinger  0:)).  I also have the luxury of working from home every now and then, I'll play Wagner as I am working. 

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 15, 2008, 05:20:46 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on July 15, 2008, 02:24:07 AM
  Sarge, I am surprised to tread this.  I have a career, have an active social life, am in a relationship and I still have time to sit and listen/watch a Wagnerian opera.  Usually I reserve the 5:00 -9:00 PM slot after work for Wagner.  That's a good 4 hours to appreciate my favorite composer (The Meistersinger  0:)).  I also have the luxury of working from home every now and then, I'll play Wagner as I am working. 

  marvin

My problem, Marvin--and it is self-inflicted--is that I like too much music: nearly every style, period and genre, and not just classical. I could listen to Wagner more but then I'd be neglecting composers I love just as much. And you have to admit Wagner does take a considerable amount of time. At my age I'm quickly running out of that commodity.

Sometimes I wish I could focus on a select few composers (many here seem to do that) but I do like variety. I'm probably doomed to listening to my top 300 composers until the day I die  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on July 15, 2008, 05:40:14 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 15, 2008, 05:20:46 AM
My problem, Marvin--and it is self-inflicted--is that I like too much music: nearly every style, period and genre, and not just classical. I could listen to Wagner more but then I'd be neglecting composers I love just as much. And you have to admit Wagner does take a considerable amount of time. At my age I'm quickly running out of that commodity.

Sometimes I wish I could focus on a select few composers (many here seem to do that) but I do like variety. I'm probably doomed to listening to my top 300 composers until the day I die  :D

Sarge

  First of all let me wish you a long, healthy, happy and  fruitful life,  :)........and don't ever think about leaving GMG!! 

  Liking too much music, I would hardly call that a problem- it is a luxury!  Yes Wagner takes too much time, I realized recently that I should be paying more attention to other composers.  As you can see my avatar has changed and now I am revisiting R. Strauss and concentrating on his operas.  The fact of the matter remains: There is too much good music and so very little time to appreciate it fully that a listening schedule seems necessary.  For the next few weeks, no Wagner for me but a Richard Strauss marathon.  Here's what's on the menu:

  1) Elektra
  2) Salome
  3) Der Rosenkavalier
  4) Ariadne auf naxos
  5) Die Frau ohne schaten
  6) Arabella
  7) Capriccio (I didn't know I had a recording of this opera  :o until I went "digging"  ;D into my collection)
  8 ) Daphne

  Stamina built from Wagnerian operas should come in handy here  ;D! 

  PS: What do you think of my new signature?

  marvin
 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Tsaraslondon on July 15, 2008, 09:42:54 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 14, 2008, 03:26:08 PM

All one has to do is listen to Varnay or Flagstad or Norman or Nilsson's videos after Callas's to understand why I feel that way.

Sarge

Well actually I have and I don't. Mainly because you haven't explained why you prefer them . This is not a swipe at those illustrious artists, nor at you. But we all hear and respond to things differently. It is not enough to simply say listen to singer A and you will understand why I prefer them to singer B. It's like saying if you try strawberry ice cream, you will understand why I prefer chocolate.

As it happens, I don't actually respond to that hint of steel in the Isoldes of Nilsson and Flagstad, great voices though they had. For me Isolde, particularly in the Liebestod is a vulnerable, feminine woman, and I don't get much of that from either, though I do rather more from Jessye Norman, who, unlike Callas however, never sang the complete role on stage. My yardstick has always been Frida Leider, because she does sound like a woman of passion, femininity and vulnerability. And that is my preference, though I am always interested to hear other points of view.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Cato on July 15, 2008, 10:11:29 AM
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on July 15, 2008, 09:42:54 AM
Well actually I have and I don't. Mainly because you haven't explained why you prefer them . This is not a swipe at those illustrious artists, nor at you. But we all hear and respond to things differently. It is not enough to simply say listen to singer A and you will understand why I prefer them to singer B. It's like saying if you try strawberry ice cream, you will understand why I prefer chocolate.

As it happens, I don't actually respond to that hint of steel in the Isoldes of Nilsson and Flagstad, great voices though they had. For me Isolde, particularly in the Liebestod is a vulnerable, feminine woman, and I don't get much of that from either, though I do rather more from Jessye Norman, who, unlike Callas however, never sang the complete role on stage. My yardstick has always been Frida Leider, because she does sound like a woman of passion, femininity and vulnerability. And that is my preference, though I am always interested to hear other points of view.


(My emphasis above)

A few items came to mind through the above adjectives: Jessye Norman's performance of Tove in Schoenberg's Gurrelieder in (one of ?) the first CD's of that work with James Levine and the Boston Symphony (the sound is dreadful: no spaciousness, no sense of an atmosphere larger than life).

The same work on a different recording: Chailly's performance with Brigitte Fassbinder as the Wood Dove: talk about passion and vulnerability combined with outrage!

And Fassbinder and Levine lead me to Strauss' Elektra with Hildegard Behrens in the title role.  One might not think of Elektra as feminine or vulnerable, but one sees that in Behrens' Met performance, especially in the scene with Orestes: I have a tape of a PBS broadcast from about 20 years ago, which for some reason has never been sold commercially, which is another tragedy!   ???

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 17, 2008, 04:13:18 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on July 15, 2008, 05:40:14 AM
 
  1) Elektra
  2) Salome
  3) Der Rosenkavalier
  4) Ariadne auf naxos
  5) Die Frau ohne schaten
  6) Arabella
  7) Capriccio (I didn't know I had a recording of this opera  :o until I went "digging"  ;D into my collection)
  8 ) Daphne

CDs or DVDs? Conductors, casts...a list please.


Quote from: marvinbrown on July 15, 2008, 05:40:14 AM
PS: What do you think of my new signature?


I think I'm glad a king's command no longer has the authority of law, otherwise I would have missed Elektra at Covent Garden in 1972; missed the greatest operatic experience of my life.

The quote is funny and just goes to show that "lofty birth" does not bestow artistic taste.

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 17, 2008, 05:11:03 AM
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on July 15, 2008, 09:42:54 AM
Well actually I have and I don't. Mainly because you haven't explained why you prefer them . This is not a swipe at those illustrious artists, nor at you. But we all hear and respond to things differently. It is not enough to simply say listen to singer A and you will understand why I prefer them to singer B. It's like saying if you try strawberry ice cream, you will understand why I prefer chocolate.

My apologies if I came across as facetious or simplistic. That wasn't my intent. By citing and comparing those singers to Callas I merely meant to point out the obvious: that they were Wagnerian sopranos and Callas wasn't. Callas didn't have the voice to be a star at Bayreuth anymore than Nilsson had the voice to sing Lucia at La Scala. That her incomparable vocal acting allowed her to sing a very affecting Isolde in the studio doesn't alter the fact that her voice was wrong for the part. At least that's the way I hear her. And since she didn't pursue a career in Wagnerian roles, I assume she knew that to be true.

Quote from: Tsaraslondon on July 15, 2008, 09:42:54 AM
As it happens, I don't actually respond to that hint of steel in the Isoldes of Nilsson and Flagstad, great voices though they had. For me Isolde, particularly in the Liebestod is a vulnerable, feminine woman, and I don't get much of that from either, though I do rather more from Jessye Norman, who, unlike Callas however, never sang the complete role on stage. My yardstick has always been Frida Leider, because she does sound like a woman of passion, femininity and vulnerability. And that is my preference, though I am always interested to hear other points of view.

I don't disagree. Neither Nilsson nor Flagstad are my favorite Isoldes for precisely the reasons you give. I didn't even own the Böhm Tristan until I bought the Bayreuth box last month. I too want a more vulnerable, feminine Isolde (and Brünnhilde in Siegfried and Götterdämmerung where she's no longer a goddess but a woman). My preferred modern Isoldes are Behrens, Price and Dernesch (I haven't heard Waltraud Meier or Stemme or Voigt), and I agree with you that Frida Leider is the ideal.  But having said that, I can't deny the critical consensus that Nilsson and Flagstad are superb Isoldes even if not my preferred singers in the role. Callas isn't in their league. But switch to her league and it's an entirely different ball game  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Anne on July 17, 2008, 06:10:54 AM
I have read many times that D. Voigt is an excellent singer of Strauss operas.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Cato on July 17, 2008, 06:24:23 AM
Quote from: Anne on July 17, 2008, 06:10:54 AM
I have read many times that D. Voigt is an excellent singer of Strauss operas.

In her plumper years, she sang Chrysothemis in the performance I mentioned above from c. 20 years ago. And she is marvelous as a singer. 

However, it is quite a sight to see the lean Hildegard Behrens "manhandle" her in certain scenes!   0:)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 17, 2008, 06:36:43 AM
Quote from: Anne on July 17, 2008, 06:10:54 AM
I have read many times that D. Voigt is an excellent singer of Strauss operas.

I only own one Strauss recording with her; she's die Kaiserin in Sinopoli's Die Frau ohne Schatten. She has an impressive voice but I really prefer Cheryl Studer here; Studer projects more feeling and, to carry on the topic above, she's more feminine. I suspect I'd appreciate Voigt more in the theater.

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on July 17, 2008, 08:00:50 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 17, 2008, 04:13:18 AM
CDs or DVDs? Conductors, casts...a list please.


  Very Well:  I'll mix and match CDs with DVDs as I see fit.  Here's what's in my collection at the moment:

  1) Elektra : CD:  Solti with VPO,  Nilsson, Resnik, Collier on Decca, DVD: Bohm with VPO on DG with Rysanek, Varnay
  2) Salome:  CD: Solti with VPO,  Nilsson, Stolze, Wachter on Decca, DVD:Bohm on DG with Stratas, Weikl
  3) Der Rosenkavalier: CD: Karajan with Philharmonia Orchestra, Schwarzkopf, Ludwig EMI, DVD: Kleiber at Munich
  4) Ariadne auf Nacos: CD: Masur with Gewandhausorchester Norman, DVD: Levine with MET, Norman, Battle
  5)  Die Frau ohne schaten: CD: Sawallisch with Bavarian Radio Orchestra, DVD: Solti VPO, Studer, Moser, Marton
  6) Arabella: CD: Solti Vienna state opera chorus
  7)  Caprricio: CD: Bohm with Bavarian Symphony Radio Orchestra, Janowitz
  8 ) Daphne: CD: Bohm with VPO, Schoffler, Little, Guden

  Well?  What do you think? Too much Solti? I like him in Strauss  ;D! I still have to pick up a few DVDs for those missing operas.  Funds are limited as you might have expected!  Incidentally I am still saving for that Karajan Ring and looking for a bargain, which never seems to come  >:(.

  marvin

 

 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Tsaraslondon on July 17, 2008, 09:50:14 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on July 17, 2008, 08:00:50 AM
  Very Well:  I'll mix and match CDs with DVDs as I see fit.  Here's what's in my collection at the moment:

  1) Elektra : CD:  Solti with VPO,  Nilsson, Resnik, Collier on Decca, DVD: Bohm with VPO on DG with Rysanek, Varnay
  2) Salome:  CD: Solti with VPO,  Nilsson, Stolze, Wachter on Decca, DVD:Bohm on DG with Stratas, Weikl
  3) Der Rosenkavalier: CD: Karajan with Philharmonia Orchestra, Schwarzkopf, Ludwig EMI, DVD: Kleiber at Munich
  4) Ariadne auf Nacos: CD: Masur with Gewandhausorchester Norman, DVD: Levine with MET, Norman, Battle
  5)  Die Frau ohne schaten: CD: Sawallisch with Bavarian Radio Orchestra, DVD: Solti VPO, Studer, Moser, Marton
  6) Arabella: CD: Solti Vienna state opera chorus
  7)  Caprricio: CD: Bohm with Bavarian Symphony Radio Orchestra, Janowitz
  8 ) Daphne: CD: Bohm with VPO, Schoffler, Little, Guden

  Well?  What do you think? Too much Solti? I like him in Strauss  ;D! I still have to pick up a few DVDs for those missing operas.  Funds are limited as you might have expected!  Incidentally I am still saving for that Karajan Ring and looking for a bargain, which never seems to come  >:(.

  marvin

 

 

Marvin, though Nilsson's Elektra is impressive, to my ears, she sounds completely wrong as Salome. My preference would be Behrens for Karajan, or the superb Welitsch (live in 1949) for Reiner. Stratas is fantastic in a film, conducted by Bohm, and recently issued on DVD by DG.

I'd also recommend Sawallisch's Capriccio, with Schwarzkopf in what many would say was her greatest role, even better than her Marschallin or Donna Elvira.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Anne on July 17, 2008, 09:55:49 AM
Quote from: Cato on July 17, 2008, 06:24:23 AM
In her plumper years, she sang Chrysothemis in the performance I mentioned above from c. 20 years ago. And she is marvelous as a singer. 

However, it is quite a sight to see the lean Hildegard Behrens "manhandle" her in certain scenes!   0:)

I don't think I have ever seen that but would like to.   ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Anne on July 17, 2008, 10:09:09 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 17, 2008, 06:36:43 AM
I only own one Strauss recording with her; she's die Kaiserin in Sinopoli's Die Frau ohne Schatten. She has an impressive voice but I really prefer Cheryl Studer here; Studer projects more feeling and, to carry on the topic above, she's more feminine. I suspect I'd appreciate Voigt more in the theater.

Sarge

I like Studer also.  This is a little OT but have you heard Studer in Verdi's Atilla?  There is a scene where everyone is singing (chorus).  Atilla has just had a dream and sings about it as from the rear of the stage comes "the pope" and the chorus.  All of a sudden from way up high comes Studer's beautiful soprano voice that just floats above all of the singers.  It is the most beautiful thing.  It is on a dvd from La Scala.

Back on topic.  I only have an aria disc of D. Voigt.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 18, 2008, 06:52:29 AM
Quote from: Anne on July 17, 2008, 10:09:09 AM
I like Studer also.  This is a little OT but have you heard Studer in Verdi's Atilla?  There is a scene where everyone is singing (chorus).  Atilla has just had a dream and sings about it as from the rear of the stage comes "the pope" and the chorus.  All of a sudden from way up high comes Studer's beautiful soprano voice that just floats above all of the singers.  It is the most beautiful thing.  It is on a dvd from La Scala.

I haven't seen that DVD but it sounds marvelous. I have a thing for beautiful soprano voices floating high above the madding crowd  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 18, 2008, 07:30:13 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on July 17, 2008, 08:00:50 AM
  Very Well:  I'll mix and match CDs with DVDs as I see fit.  Here's what's in my collection at the moment:

1) Elektra : CD:  Solti with VPO,  Nilsson, Resnik, Collier on Decca, DVD: Bohm with VPO on DG with Rysanek, Varnay
2) Salome:  CD: Solti with VPO,  Nilsson, Stolze, Wachter on Decca, DVD:Bohm on DG with Stratas, Weikl
3) Der Rosenkavalier: CD: Karajan with Philharmonia Orchestra, Schwarzkopf, Ludwig EMI, DVD: Kleiber at Munich
4) Ariadne auf Nacos: CD: Masur with Gewandhausorchester Norman, DVD: Levine with MET, Norman, Battle
5)  Die Frau ohne schaten: CD: Sawallisch with Bavarian Radio Orchestra, DVD: Solti VPO, Studer, Moser, Marton
6) Arabella: CD: Solti Vienna state opera chorus
7)  Caprricio: CD: Bohm with Bavarian Symphony Radio Orchestra, Janowitz
8) Daphne: CD: Bohm with VPO, Schoffler, Little, Guden

  Well?  What do you think? Too much Solti?

Not if you like him, no, not too much although I agree with Tsaraslondon about Nilsson's Salome. I recently bought Solti's Rosenkavalier and really like it.

I highlighted the ones I own. I have Levine's Ariadne on CD (Battle's in this one too), and Kleiber's Vienna Rosenkavalier rather than the Munich. I've been thinking about that Solti Schatten DVD. Do you like it?


Quote
I still have to pick up a few DVDs for those missing operas.  Funds are limited as you might have expected!  Incidentally I am still saving for that Karajan Ring and looking for a bargain, which never seems to come  >:(.

I may be in the market for a Karajan Ring too. My old set (first generation CDs) has foam fillers and some of them stuck to the CDs! Maddening. I'm having trouble scrapping the stuff off without scratching the CDs. Does anyone have a solution? I've gone through all my opera boxes and thrown those vile foam things out. Should have done it years ago but wasn't aware then that they'd be a problem.

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wendell_E on July 18, 2008, 08:21:40 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 18, 2008, 07:30:13 AM
foam fillers and some of them stuck to the CDs! Maddening. I'm having trouble scrapping the stuff off without scratching the CDs. Does anyone have a solution? I've gone through all my opera boxes and thrown those vile foam things out. Should have done it years ago but wasn't aware then that they'd be a problem.

Sarge

Yeah, I started hearing about that problem a few years back, but haven't heard a good solution.  I thought I'd disposed of all the ones in my collection, but missed a couple:  Abbado's first recording of Mahler's Seventh was salvageable, but the second disc of the Chailly/Pavarotti/Caballé Andrea Chénier was hopeless. 

I love that Solti DVD of Die Frau ohne Schatten you were asking about.  Some people really don't care for Marton's Dyer's Wife, but I like it.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on July 18, 2008, 11:06:17 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on July 17, 2008, 08:00:50 AM
  Very Well:  I'll mix and match CDs with DVDs as I see fit.  Here's what's in my collection at the moment:

  1) Elektra : CD:  Solti with VPO,  Nilsson, Resnik, Collier on Decca, DVD: Bohm with VPO on DG with Rysanek, Varnay
  2) Salome:  CD: Solti with VPO,  Nilsson, Stolze, Wachter on Decca, DVD:Bohm on DG with Stratas, Weikl
  3) Der Rosenkavalier: CD: Karajan with Philharmonia Orchestra, Schwarzkopf, Ludwig EMI, DVD: Kleiber at Munich
  4) Ariadne auf Nacos: CD: Masur with Gewandhausorchester Norman, DVD: Levine with MET, Norman, Battle
  5)  Die Frau ohne schaten: CD: Sawallisch with Bavarian Radio Orchestra, DVD: Solti VPO, Studer, Moser, Marton
  6) Arabella: CD: Solti Vienna state opera chorus
  7)  Caprricio: CD: Bohm with Bavarian Symphony Radio Orchestra, Janowitz
  8 ) Daphne: CD: Bohm with VPO, Schoffler, Little, Guden

  Well?  What do you think? Too much Solti? I like him in Strauss  ;D! I still have to pick up a few DVDs for those missing operas.  Funds are limited as you might have expected!  Incidentally I am still saving for that Karajan Ring and looking for a bargain, which never seems to come  >:(.

  marvin

I've said it before, but I'll say it again: Karl Böhm's 1977 Die Frau ohne Schatten (DGG) is the one to have. Never mind the cuts he makes, just remember that the cast is about as ideal as you'd ever want and Böhm's way with Strauss was really quite singular. If Böhm's set doesn't do it for you, consider the 1964 Karajan Die Frau from Vienna, DG put it back out after a little while as a hard-to-find set. Speaking of Karajan, his 1978 Salome, which was a product of his contemporary Salzburger Festspiele run, is hard to beat. Solti's is a little too gimmicky as far as the production goes, and, as has been noted, Nilsson, despite having the range and power, isn't too terribly well suited to the role. Presenting the eponymous princess as a steely, strong-willed woman (like Brünnhilde) works, to a point, but it does tend to undermine the overall character a little bit.

Knappertsbusch's 1955 Rosenkavalier (on RCA Red Seal), which was recorded during the Staatsoper reopening festivities, is also worth a listen.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on July 18, 2008, 11:47:58 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 18, 2008, 07:30:13 AM

I highlighted the ones I own. I have Levine's Ariadne on CD (Battle's in this one too), and Kleiber's Vienna Rosenkavalier rather than the Munich. I've been thinking about that Solti Schatten DVD. Do you like it?



Sarge

  Yes I love the Solti Schatten.  It is uncut, excellent sound, somewhat of a modern adaptation, well worth watching!

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Anne on July 18, 2008, 06:24:24 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 18, 2008, 07:30:13 AM

I may be in the market for a Karajan Ring too. My old set (first generation CDs) has foam fillers and some of them stuck to the CDs! Maddening. I'm having trouble scrapping the stuff off without scratching the CDs. Does anyone have a solution? I've gone through all my opera boxes and thrown those vile foam things out. Should have done it years ago but wasn't aware then that they'd be a problem.

Sarge

I don't know if this would help but the situations do seem a little analogous.  My husband and I were trying to remove some foam rubber padding that had been under the living room carpet and were having a difficult time - scraping and scraping.  Dust filled the room and we were not making much progress.

Then I had a brainstorm.  If the dry method didn't work very well, maybe the wet method would?  We got some water which hubby applied with a mop.  Voila!  Right before our eyes that foam came right off that floor with no effort on our part except to apply a little water.  We were all done in 10 minutes.  Maybe that method will work for you as well as it did for us.  I hope so.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on July 19, 2008, 03:11:04 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 18, 2008, 07:30:13 AM



I may be in the market for a Karajan Ring too. My old set (first generation CDs) has foam fillers and some of them stuck to the CDs! Maddening. I'm having trouble scrapping the stuff off without scratching the CDs. Does anyone have a solution? I've gone through all my opera boxes and thrown those vile foam things out. Should have done it years ago but wasn't aware then that they'd be a problem.

Sarge

  Sarge I am sorry to hear about your foam filler problems, especially as you are having this with the Karajan Ring, your favorite Ring Cycle. Anne's solution just might work but I would caution you do not use any chemicals and don't scrape the CD.  Use a soft cloth and move radially (ie perpendicular to the circumference of the circular CD) I hope all will be well.

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on July 19, 2008, 04:21:15 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 18, 2008, 07:30:13 AM
I may be in the market for a Karajan Ring too. My old set (first generation CDs) has foam fillers and some of them stuck to the CDs! Maddening. I'm having trouble scrapping the stuff off without scratching the CDs. Does anyone have a solution?
Sarge--just send the set to me and I'll see what I can do.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 19, 2008, 04:33:38 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 19, 2008, 04:21:15 AM
Sarge--just send the set to me and I'll see what I can do.

I smell a trap...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 19, 2008, 04:36:27 AM
Quote from: Anne on July 18, 2008, 06:24:24 PM
Maybe that method will work for you as well as it did for us.  I hope so.

Quote from: marvinbrown on July 19, 2008, 03:11:04 AM
Use a soft cloth and move radially (ie perpendicular to the circumference of the circular CD) I hope all will be well.

Anne, Marvin, thanks. I'll try that.


Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 19, 2008, 05:07:35 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 19, 2008, 04:36:27 AM
Anne, Marvin, thanks. I'll try that.


Sarge
It will get rid of some but there will be some really fine particles that will stick to the cd no matter what you do. But it will be much better. My Karajan Ring suffered the same fate since like you I have the original release. Whatever you do DO NOT USE ANY ALCOHOL_BASED solvent or it will eat right through your cd.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on July 19, 2008, 07:38:21 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 19, 2008, 04:33:38 AM
I smell a trap...
;D But, seriously, Sarge--I had the same problem with an old Karajan Carmen.  An alcohol solution worked fine for me.  It should not damage the CDs.  Here's proof:
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 19, 2008, 05:07:35 AM
It will get rid of some but there will be some really fine particles that will stick to the cd no matter what you do. But it will be much better. My Karajan Ring suffered the same fate since like you I have the original release. Whatever you do DO NOT USE ANY ALCOHOL_BASED solvent or it will eat right through your cd.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 19, 2008, 09:46:47 AM
Go ahead Sarge, knock yourself out, wipe that cd with an alcohol pad. When it eats through the top lining and make your cd about as transparent as a car's windshield you'll have Mr. Smartass here to thank.

Then again, if you read the warning that comes with any cd it will say:

Should the cd be soiled...it can be wiped with a clean and lint-free soft dry cloth. No solvent or abrasive should ever be used on the disc.

I listened to some idiot in the past and tried to get of of the foam residue on my DECCA Ballo en Maschera set with alcohol and guess what, it ate away all the infomation leaving me with what looks like a see-through plastic disc in my hand. Luckily I was wise enough to try it on music that I don't care about first instead of on Wagner or Strauss cds.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on July 19, 2008, 10:36:58 AM
If any concerns about the safety of using an alcohol solution linger after your testimony, I'm sure that Sarge is smart enough to test first on some crap CD...and he's probably smart enough to google the issue as well. 

What is an alcohol pad?  If it's anything like a Brillo pad, that could explain a lot!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 19, 2008, 11:27:10 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 19, 2008, 10:36:58 AM

  If it's anything like a Brillo pad, that could explain a lot!
What's a Brillo pad? I just used a small dry cotton based pad dipped in ethanol and it was quite destructive.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2008, 12:09:25 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 19, 2008, 11:27:10 AM
What's a Brillo pad? I just used a small dry cotton based pad dipped in ethanol and it was quite destructive.

He's joking, PW:

http://www.brillo.com/
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 20, 2008, 04:51:36 AM
Water and a soft cloth worked on the affected Siegfried and Gütterdämmerung discs but the foam wasn't so tightly bound to the discs as in the Walküre and Rheingold boxes. The discs appear to be pitted though and I don't know if that's going to be a problem eventually (they play okay now...at least the parts I checked).

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on July 20, 2008, 05:28:38 AM
Good news--for now, at least.  I wonder about the chemical reaction between the foam and the label that bound them together...or maybe the adhesive is a by-product of the foam breaking down over time?  In either case, I wonder if that could be the source of the solvent that seems to have caused PW's grief...and if so, then suspect one ought be very gentle when rubbing the disc to remove the adhesive foam.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 20, 2008, 05:40:29 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 20, 2008, 05:28:38 AMif so, then suspect one ought be very gentle when rubbing the disc to remove the adhesive foam.

We're going to a wine fest this evening. I plan to soak one of the Walküre discs in distilled water while we're gone, hoping that most of the foam comes off without the need of a cloth.

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on July 20, 2008, 06:17:56 AM
I can't help but butt in on this exchange with a question: Why isn't any of you who is having problems with your disc on the cartridge system? I understand you can even have twelve and more discs in a cartridge. I have mine in six discs cartridges and once I insert the new one in the Pioneer cartridge I never have to touch it again, and there is nothing in the cartridge to adhere to a disc.  :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on July 20, 2008, 06:49:09 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 20, 2008, 05:40:29 AM
We're going to a wine fest this evening. I plan to soak one of the Walküre discs in distilled water while we're gone, hoping that most of the foam comes off without the need of a cloth.

Sarge

  Sarge I am glad to hear that at least 2 of the operas in Wagner Ring cycle were cleaned without incident  :).  If you are going to be doing any rubbing once again I will remind you to keep it to a minimum and remember always move radially (perpendicular to the circumference) of the CD.  i read somewhere that the music is "embedded" for lack of a better word along the circumference of the CD.  Moving radially is the best method of preventing any scatching and damage along the circumference of the CD which could damage the music!! 

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on July 20, 2008, 07:36:05 AM
This is all beginning to sound like open-heart surgery; but more vital.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on July 20, 2008, 08:16:06 AM
Quote from: knight on July 20, 2008, 07:36:05 AM
This is all beginning to sound like open-heart surgery; but more vital.

Mike

  It is more vital than one's heart Mike  $:)!  Wagner's music and not just any music, The Holy Ring Cycle  0:) (marvinbrown does the sign of the holy cross)  0:), is at stake here.  We are talking about some of Sarge's most treasured possessions (the Karajan Ring  0:))- move those CDs to the intensive care unit, assign a team of consultants and specialists to deal with the situation  $:) that's what I say!  This is no time to take matters trivially!

  marvin 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on July 20, 2008, 08:18:19 AM
Quote from: knight on July 20, 2008, 07:36:05 AM
This is all beginning to sound like open-heart surgery; but more vital.

Mike

Nothing like a downed Wagner disc to rally the troops...

EDIT: Oops, I see Marvin beat me to it.



Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Siedler on July 20, 2008, 03:37:41 PM
I'm just reading Pratchett's Maskerade and this is pretty funny  ;D:
'There goes a figure that should prompt a revival of The Ring of the Nibelungingung,' Undershaft went on. 'Now that was an opera.'

'Three days of gods shouting at one another and twenty minutes of memorable tunes?' said Salzella. 'No, thank you very much.'

'But can't you hear her singing Hildabrun, leader of the Valkyries?'

'Yes. Oh, yes. But unfortunately I can also hear her singing Nobbo the dwarf and lo, Chief of the Gods.'
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 20, 2008, 03:47:37 PM
Quote from: Siedler on July 20, 2008, 03:37:41 PM
I'm just reading Pratchett's Maskerade and this is pretty funny  ;D:
'There goes a figure that should prompt a revival of The Ring of the Nibelungingung,' Undershaft went on. 'Now that was an opera.'

'Three days of gods shouting at one another and twenty minutes of memorable tunes?' said Salzella. 'No, thank you very much.'

'But can't you hear her singing Hildabrun, leader of the Valkyries?'

'Yes. Oh, yes. But unfortunately I can also hear her singing Nobbo the dwarf and lo, Chief of the Gods.'

Very good... I wonder whether that name 'Undershaft' is an allusion to a character in one of G.B. Shaw's plays, who, as is well known, was a great Wagnerian...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Anne on July 20, 2008, 04:48:03 PM
Maybe the person working in a large public or college library could help you.  I had a problem with a cd quite a long time ago and the library worker knew just how to fix it.  I was surprised as I had never considered a library worker for help.  I don't remember what the cd problem was.  They have to repair cd's all the time.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 20, 2008, 04:57:04 PM
Quote from: Siedler on July 20, 2008, 03:37:41 PM
I'm just reading Pratchett's Maskerade and this is pretty funny  ;D:
'There goes a figure that should prompt a revival of The Ring of the Nibelungingung,' Undershaft went on. 'Now that was an opera.'

'Three days of gods shouting at one another and twenty minutes of memorable tunes?' said Salzella. 'No, thank you very much.'

'But can't you hear her singing Hildabrun, leader of the Valkyries?'

'Yes. Oh, yes. But unfortunately I can also hear her singing Nobbo the dwarf and lo, Chief of the Gods.'
What's so funny about that? Full of the same old platitudes you always hear when clueless idiots talk about Wagner.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on July 21, 2008, 01:12:56 AM
Quote from: Siedler on July 20, 2008, 03:37:41 PM
I'm just reading Pratchett's Maskerade and this is pretty funny  ;D:

'Three days of gods shouting at one another and twenty minutes of memorable tunes?' said Salzella. 'No, thank you very much.'


  Actually it's 3 days and an evening, how soon we forget Das Rheingold,  but who's counting  ;)!

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Renfield on July 21, 2008, 02:00:08 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on July 21, 2008, 01:12:56 AM
  Actually it's 3 days and an evening, how soon we forget Das Rheingold,  but who's counting  ;)!

  marvin

Preliminary evening: some people just seem over-eager to get to the point. ;D ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2008, 02:58:48 AM
Well, literally 'Vorabend' is 'Eve'. So Rhinegold is Ring's Eve...  ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Renfield on July 21, 2008, 03:09:27 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on July 21, 2008, 02:58:48 AM
Well, literally 'Vorabend' is 'Eve'. So Rhinegold is Ring's Eve...  ;)

I protest innocence: 'twas an English translation I was quoting! $:)

(Although that notwithstanding, do I find the Ring's "Eve" far more appropriately Wagnerian in sound.)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2008, 03:14:59 AM
Quote from: Renfield on July 21, 2008, 03:09:27 AM
I protest innocence: 'twas an English translation I was quoting! $:)

(Although that notwithstanding, do I find the Ring's "Eve" far more appropriately Wagnerian in sound.)

Yes, nicely archaic, isn't it? Like the 'Rape of the Rhinegold' (cf Pope's 'The Rape of the Lock').
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on July 21, 2008, 03:37:41 AM


  Does it really have to be an evening.  I relish the thought of Das Rheingold being as long as the other 3 operas in the Ring.  Why couldn't Das Rheingold be 4+ hours long??  Why couldn't it span a whole day? Why? oh why? I ask.  I mean there is plenty of material there:
 
  A few possible added scenes:
  1) Wotan forsaking an eye as he drinks from the spring of wisdom and fabricates a spear from the Ash Tree
  2) The Giants Building Valhalla
  3) Alberich fashioning the Ring from the stolen gold
  4) Wotan meets and falls in love with Frea, the Gods assemble
 
  5) Wotan's "love" affair with Erda

  There's plenty of material there, there's plenty of material there!!!

  marvin
 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Renfield on July 21, 2008, 03:51:17 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on July 21, 2008, 03:14:59 AM
Yes, nicely archaic, isn't it? Like the 'Rape of the Rhinegold' (cf Pope's 'The Rape of the Lock').

I hadn't heard of the work before!

So not only was this a highly cultivated, and successful, pun, but it also gave me something new to look for in my next visit to the bookstore. ;)


Marvin, I think an expansion of the Rheingold would make a number of less-hardcore Wagnerians commit ritual suicide, so to speak. :P
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on July 21, 2008, 03:56:14 AM
Quote from: Renfield on July 21, 2008, 03:51:17 AM
Marvin, I think an expansion of the Rheingold would make a number of less-hardcore Wagnerians commit ritual suicide, so to speak. :P

Don't limit your observation to "less-hardcore Wagnerians" only. Much as I like Rheingold, it is still necessary to understand both what its purpose in the Ring is and why an expansion of its content would be less than ideal.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Renfield on July 21, 2008, 04:08:00 AM
Quote from: PSmith08 on July 21, 2008, 03:56:14 AM
Don't limit your observation to "less-hardcore Wagnerians" only. Much as I like Rheingold, it is still necessary to understand both what its purpose in the Ring is and why an expansion of its content would be less than ideal.

Agreed. Though my jest was more about those who have a problem with Wagner's long-windedness.

Otherwise, I believe "Das Rheingold", relatively speaking, to be quite succinct.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on July 21, 2008, 04:19:06 AM
Quote from: PSmith08 on July 21, 2008, 03:56:14 AM
Don't limit your observation to "less-hardcore Wagnerians" only. Much as I like Rheingold, it is still necessary to understand both what its purpose in the Ring is and why an expansion of its content would be less than ideal.

  Come on PSmith08 now wouldn't you like to see a scene where Alberich fabricates that Ring with Wagner's sublime dark leitmotif to accompany it.  Also I think the audience would be well served to see how Wotan lost his eye.  I for one would like to see a scene set to music of the Ash Tree losing its branch to become Wotan's spear. 

  I would however like to hear your views why expansion of it contents would be less than ideal.  Siegfried is no longer the fallen hero of the Ring as Wagner had originally envisaged with the "The Death of Siegfried".  Wotan has replaced him, I think some of those scenes I suggested would be most appropriate.

  marvin 

 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on July 21, 2008, 04:53:03 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on July 21, 2008, 04:19:06 AM
  Come on PSmith08 now wouldn't you like to see a scene where Alberich fabricates that Ring with Wagner's sublime dark leitmotif to accompany it.  Also I think the audience would be well served to see how Wotan lost his eye.  I for one would like to see a scene set to music of the Ash Tree losing its branch to become Wotan's spear. 

  I would however like to hear your views why expansion of it contents would be less than ideal.  Siegfried is no longer the fallen hero of the Ring as Wagner had originally envisaged with the "The Death of Siegfried".  Wotan has replaced him, I think some of those scenes I suggested would be most appropriate.

  marvin 

They would be, and so would the deletion of Götterdämmerung, if we're playing that game. Since the central problem with the Ring hasn't really materialized yet, there's no real sense bringing in the Wotan-Siegfried issue to say retroactively that Wagner should have done this or that. Clearly, and Götterdämmerung is a testament to this, the issue presented itself without a conscious redraft on Wagner's part; indeed, Wagner did what he could to keep things in order as intended, but there were and are some signs of strain. That is to say, then, that your position would be fine and good if Wagner went in to make the Ring the story of Wotan from the outset. We would have to ignore, though, the fact of the matter.

The broader issues with the Ring aside, one must consider the fact that Rheingold sets up a problem that Wotan attempts to solve in the "time" between the end of Rheingold and the start of Walküre. Wagner's libretto, in fact, offers us a pretty clear hint as to when Wotan solves the problem in his mind. There is also a musical cue that, when read along with Wagner's direction, makes things fairly well obvious, even if we don't yet know what the "big idea" is. The question for Rheingold, then, is what is dramatically necessary to set up the problems to be resolved during the three days. That is to say that we are confronted with a teleological question, and anything that doesn't really answer that question - or enhance the answer to that question - is superfluous. That devolves quickly into a matter of a debate between different dramatic sensibilities, I suppose, but I think framing the question in that way does reveal my position nicely.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on July 21, 2008, 06:00:39 AM
Quote from: PSmith08 on July 21, 2008, 04:53:03 AM
They would be, and so would the deletion of Götterdämmerung, if we're playing that game. Since the central problem with the Ring hasn't really materialized yet, there's no real sense bringing in the Wotan-Siegfried issue to say retroactively that Wagner should have done this or that. Clearly, and Götterdämmerung is a testament to this, the issue presented itself without a conscious redraft on Wagner's part; indeed, Wagner did what he could to keep things in order as intended, but there were and are some signs of strain. That is to say, then, that your position would be fine and good if Wagner went in to make the Ring the story of Wotan from the outset. We would have to ignore, though, the fact of the matter.

The broader issues with the Ring aside, one must consider the fact that Rheingold sets up a problem that Wotan attempts to solve in the "time" between the end of Rheingold and the start of Walküre. Wagner's libretto, in fact, offers us a pretty clear hint as to when Wotan solves the problem in his mind. There is also a musical cue that, when read along with Wagner's direction, makes things fairly well obvious, even if we don't yet know what the "big idea" is. The question for Rheingold, then, is what is dramatically necessary to set up the problems to be resolved during the three days. That is to say that we are confronted with a teleological question, and anything that doesn't really answer that question - or enhance the answer to that question - is superfluous. That devolves quickly into a matter of a debate between different dramatic sensibilities, I suppose, but I think framing the question in that way does reveal my position nicely.

  You present some very good points here.  Das Rheingold does present problems (the Ring,  love being forsaken for power etc.) which the following 3 operas solve.  In that regard Das rheingold is sufficient in that it serves its purpose. Wotan's 2 monologues in Die Walkure, one with his wife Frea, the other with Brunhilde "fill in the gaps" so to speak between the end of Das Rheingold and the beginning of Die Walkure. However many questions still remain unanswered. The listener has to wait until the beginning of Gotterdammerung and the scene with the 3 Norns to get the full picture of the epic saga.  Wagner unifies the 4 operas with the 3 Norns scene and the common link is revealed:  Wotan.  When the Norn talks about the past it is here that I have this desire to see those scenes where Wotan loses his eye, the Ash Tree branch is made into a spear etc. The distant past just seems not only relevant but important.
 
  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on July 21, 2008, 08:48:29 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on July 21, 2008, 03:14:59 AM
Yes, nicely archaic, isn't it? Like the 'Rape of the Rhinegold' (cf Pope's 'The Rape of the Lock').

Yes, except that Pope gets his rape over with in 794 lines of heroic couplets infinitely wittier than anything in Wagner.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2008, 08:56:03 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on July 21, 2008, 08:48:29 AM
Yes, except that Pope gets his rape over with in 794 lines of heroic couplets infinitely wittier than anything in Wagner.

Pope was a great poet (and wit was his forte), a master of the mock-epic. Wagner is epic with no 'mock' in sight.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on July 21, 2008, 09:29:13 AM
Quote from: Renfield on July 21, 2008, 04:08:00 AM
Agreed. Though my jest was more about those who have a problem with Wagner's long-windedness.

Otherwise, I believe "Das Rheingold", relatively speaking, to be quite succinct.

Not if you neglect to visit the men's room before the conductor starts the first downbeat.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2008, 09:35:30 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on July 21, 2008, 09:29:13 AM
Not if you neglect to visit the men's room before the conductor starts the first downbeat.

;D (And the Rhine doesn't help either.)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on July 21, 2008, 09:39:01 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on July 21, 2008, 08:48:29 AM
Yes, except that Pope gets his rape over with in 794 lines of heroic couplets infinitely wittier than anything in Wagner.

  Ouch! That's rather harsh and uncalled for  $:).  I will kindly remind you that this is the Wagner appreciation thread  ;)  :)!

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Renfield on July 21, 2008, 09:40:22 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on July 21, 2008, 09:29:13 AM
Not if you neglect to visit the men's room before the conductor starts the first downbeat.

Quote from: Jezetha on July 21, 2008, 09:35:30 AM
;D (And the Rhine doesn't help either.)

Hah. Well, I suppose the true Wagnerian must possess some sort of special training for such a contingency... Let's ask Marvin.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on July 21, 2008, 09:46:08 AM
Quote from: Renfield on July 21, 2008, 09:40:22 AM
Hah. Well, I suppose the true Wagnerian must possess some sort of special training for such a contingency... Let's ask Marvin.

  Ok avoid alcohol, coffee, Diet Coke, Coke, Red Bull, tea anything with caffeine that stimulates the bladder.  The last thing you want is, as Jezetha so humorously noted, to see the Rhein's gushing water when you have to use the toilet!! 

 

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on July 21, 2008, 09:51:46 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on July 21, 2008, 09:39:01 AM
  Ouch! That's rather harsh and uncalled for  $:).  I will kindly remind you that this is the Wagner appreciation thread  ;)  :)!

  marvin

How could I forget.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Renfield on July 21, 2008, 09:58:40 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on July 21, 2008, 09:46:08 AM
  Ok avoid alcohol, coffee, Diet Coke, Coke, Red Bull, tea anything with caffeine that stimulates the bladder.  The last thing you want is, as Jezetha so humorously noted, to see the Rhein's gushing water when you have to use the toilet!! 

 

  marvin

I must admit I had a number of highly comic possible disaster scenarios flash by, while reading the list of things to avoid.

Still, I suppose that's not entirely a joke: particularly with the other three Ring operas, or Parsifal.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on July 21, 2008, 10:09:00 AM
Quote from: Renfield on July 21, 2008, 09:58:40 AM
I must admit I had a number of highly comic possible disaster scenarios flash by, while reading the list of things to avoid.

Still, I suppose that's not entirely a joke: particularly with the other three Ring operas, or Parsifal.

  .........or Die Meistersinger or Tristan und Isolde....... ;)

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Renfield on July 21, 2008, 10:12:08 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on July 21, 2008, 10:09:00 AM
  .........or Die Meistersinger or Tristan und Isolde....... ;)

  marvin

Well, in Die Meistersinger one could slip out during the fight. And if "Tristan" is as engrossing as people seem to think, it won't matter. ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Don on July 21, 2008, 10:14:03 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on July 21, 2008, 04:19:06 AM
I would however like to hear your views why expansion of it contents would be less than ideal.   

Because Wagner already completed the work.  As usual, I'll go with the composer's wishes.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on July 21, 2008, 10:43:21 AM
Quote from: Renfield on July 21, 2008, 10:12:08 AM
Well, in Die Meistersinger one could slip out during the fight.

Nah. Act 2 of DM is only an hour long. The five potential "problem" spots in Wagner are Rheingold, Meistersinger 3, G-D 1, Parsifal 1, and Dutchman if played in one act. Before or (especially) after any of these, the lines to the restrooms are piteous to behold.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2008, 10:51:04 AM
Here's a man, who speaks from bitter experience...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on July 21, 2008, 11:21:28 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on July 21, 2008, 10:51:04 AM
Here's a man, who speaks from bitter experience...

Fortunately not. I know the scores too well. But I seen others less well-informed come to a piteous end.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2008, 11:27:42 AM
(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2006/06/28/us/28flood1.600.jpg)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on July 21, 2008, 01:30:58 PM
Quote from: Don on July 21, 2008, 10:14:03 AM
Because Wagner already completed the work.  As usual, I'll go with the composer's wishes.

  I can respect and relate to that. 

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on July 21, 2008, 05:58:11 PM
Quote from: Sforzando on July 21, 2008, 10:43:21 AM
, the lines to the restrooms are piteous to behold.

You ain't seen nuttin' yet! Try the ladies restrooms!  ::)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on July 21, 2008, 06:41:13 PM
Quote from: uffeviking on July 21, 2008, 05:58:11 PM
You ain't seen nuttin' yet! Try the ladies restrooms!  ::)

I know, I know.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on July 21, 2008, 08:04:48 PM
I heard a story about the new Seattle Opera including one hundred ladies cubicles in their remodeling, distributed over three floors. Last time I was there I had to walk down to the ten stalls in the lobby!  :o

Had somebody mentioned Richard Wagner on this topic?  ???
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wanderer on July 21, 2008, 11:47:22 PM
Toilet humour. I get it.  :D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Chaszz on July 26, 2008, 10:20:31 PM
Quote from: Sforzando on July 21, 2008, 10:43:21 AM
Nah. Act 2 of DM is only an hour long. The five potential "problem" spots in Wagner are Rheingold, Meistersinger 3, G-D 1, Parsifal 1, and Dutchman if played in one act. Before or (especially) after any of these, the lines to the restrooms are piteous to behold.

Since most operagoers are older people, and among the male persuasion growth in the prostate often accompanies old age, the lines to the male restrooms during intermissions for any opera are piteous to behold.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on July 27, 2008, 05:39:13 AM
Since there is no response to the Bayreuth 2008 topic, maybe if I intrude into the urinary popular hot thread I'll meet someone who is listening to the Bayreuth webcasts.

Anybody??  ???
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 27, 2008, 05:51:05 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on July 27, 2008, 05:39:13 AM
Since there is no response to the Bayreuth 2008 topic, maybe if I intrude into the urinary popular hot thread I'll meet someone who is listening to the Bayreuth webcasts.

Anybody??  ???

I saw your post. But I don't, unfortunately, have the time to listen along with you... But let not that dampen your enthusiasm!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Renfield on July 27, 2008, 06:02:40 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on July 27, 2008, 05:51:05 AM
I saw your post. But I don't, unfortunately, have the time to listen along with you... But let not that dampen your enthusiasm!

Likewise.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on July 27, 2008, 06:19:13 AM
Hurrah! Two replies! Thank you!  :-*  :-*

Maybe a better time when the rebroadcasts are on?

http://www.operacast.com/bayreuth08.htm
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on July 27, 2008, 06:13:35 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on July 27, 2008, 05:51:05 AM
dampen your enthusiasm!

:D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on July 29, 2008, 12:16:07 PM

Wagner fans I don't believe we have discussed this subject in detail:

How many of you have been here:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/Festspielhaus.jpg)

  If you have been here what performances did you see? Who were the conductor and singers? When did you go? How were the acoustics, how was the production? How did you get your tickets? Was it a long wait? Are the seats comfortable?  Also what else happens at the festival outside of the performances?

  It is my dream to go to Bayreuth  0:) and to see the Ring performed in its entirety and then to catch a performance of Tristan und Isolde  0:).  That's going to be an item on my bucket list  ;)?

  marvin



 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Renfield on July 29, 2008, 02:38:55 PM
Lovely house, Marvin. Is it yours? ;D ;)



(I'm kidding. And of course, no, I have not been to Bayreuth; let alone in there! :))
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on July 29, 2008, 03:07:41 PM
I haven't been there either! And because I strongly dislike uncomfortable wooden furniture to sit on during a Wagner opera, I don't think I'll even try for a ticket.  :D

But I can give you some second hand snippets. A friend, American expatriot who lived in Bayreuth and taught at the local university told me some of his experiences. Like: would you believe he never had a problem getting a ticket? No, he never applied for one, all he did was to put on his tux, walked up to The Hill with a sign asking for a ticket and he always got one, most of the time even free! Then there were times when he was in hurry, wore his jeans and sport shirt, but stuck his tux and shirt in a bag, made his trip up The Hill, got a ticket from someone who had a spare, went to the men's room, changed his attire, put the jeans in the bag and left it with the Garderobenfrau - something like a hat check girl - who by now already knew him, and he enjoyed the opera. Only once did he get a ticket but did not have his tux with him and he had to walk the gauntlet to his seat, followed by hostile stares and hisses: "How dare he, in jeans???"

Marvin, my best advise: Buy yourself a tux and nice ruffled shirt! Good Luck!  :-*
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Renfield on July 29, 2008, 03:11:51 PM
Quote from: uffeviking on July 29, 2008, 03:07:41 PM
Only once did he get a ticket but did not have his tux with him and he had to walk the gauntlet to his seat, followed by hostile stares and hisses: "How dare he, in jeans???"

Wagner forbid! :P


Besides the joke, I'm pleasantly surprised that he was allowed to attend in jeans. I'd have expected a dress code to be in place.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 29, 2008, 03:37:49 PM
Quote from: uffeviking on July 29, 2008, 03:07:41 PM
I haven't been there either! And because I strongly dislike uncomfortable wooden furniture to sit on during a Wagner opera, I don't think I'll even try for a ticket.  :D

But I can give you some second hand snippets. A friend, American expatriot who lived in Bayreuth and taught at the local university told me some of his experiences. Like: would you believe he never had a problem getting a ticket? No, he never applied for one, all he did was to put on his tux, walked up to The Hill with a sign asking for a ticket and he always got one, most of the time even free! Then there were times when he was in hurry, wore his jeans and sport shirt, but stuck his tux and shirt in a bag, made his trip up The Hill, got a ticket from someone who had a spare, went to the men's room, changed his attire, put the jeans in the bag and left it with the Garderobenfrau - something like a hat check girl - who by now already knew him, and he enjoyed the opera. Only once did he get a ticket but did not have his tux with him and he had to walk the gauntlet to his seat, followed by hostile stares and hisses: "How dare he, in jeans???"

If you believe in that I got beachfront property that I'll sell you for cheap.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on July 29, 2008, 04:24:57 PM
Quote from: Renfield on July 29, 2008, 02:38:55 PM
Lovely house, Marvin. Is it yours? ;D ;)



(I'm kidding. And of course, no, I have not been to Bayreuth; let alone in there! :))

  Oh yeah that's my humble abode  ;D!

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on July 29, 2008, 04:37:50 PM
Quote from: uffeviking on July 29, 2008, 03:07:41 PM
I haven't been there either! And because I strongly dislike uncomfortable wooden furniture to sit on during a Wagner opera, I don't think I'll even try for a ticket.  :D

But I can give you some second hand snippets. A friend, American expatriot who lived in Bayreuth and taught at the local university told me some of his experiences. Like: would you believe he never had a problem getting a ticket? No, he never applied for one, all he did was to put on his tux, walked up to The Hill with a sign asking for a ticket and he always got one, most of the time even free! Then there were times when he was in hurry, wore his jeans and sport shirt, but stuck his tux and shirt in a bag, made his trip up The Hill, got a ticket from someone who had a spare, went to the men's room, changed his attire, put the jeans in the bag and left it with the Garderobenfrau - something like a hat check girl - who by now already knew him, and he enjoyed the opera. Only once did he get a ticket but did not have his tux with him and he had to walk the gauntlet to his seat, followed by hostile stares and hisses: "How dare he, in jeans???"

Marvin, my best advise: Buy yourself a tux and nice ruffled shirt! Good Luck!  :-*

  Lis I already have a tux that's been sitting in my closet gathering dust and moths and what have you.  I guess now would be the time to pull it out and get it cleaned!!  Seeing as how you live in Germany and are a Wagnerian I was surprised that you had never been to Bayreuth  :o!!  But then again I guess if the seats are uncomfortable wooden furniture one might be tempted to stay away.  Incidentally can't one bring a pillow or a cushion to sit on??, or would that also get a hiss from the audience??

  PS:  So Lis, Renfield and PerfectWagnerite have not been to Bayreuth- I guess that leaves Sarge  8), yes I I'll bet he's been there! I also wonder if  Jezetha  8) has been to Bayreuth?? Other than that I can not think of any other Wagner fans GMG members who would have made the journey??  ??? Greta maybe??  I guess I'll have to be the first then!

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 29, 2008, 04:49:55 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on July 29, 2008, 04:37:50 PM
   PS:  So Lis, Renfield and PerfectWagnerite have not been to Bayreuth- I guess that leaves Sarge  8), yes I I'll bet he's been there! I also wonder if  Jezetha  8) has been to Bayreuth?? Other than that I can not think of any other Wagner fans GMG members who would have made the journey??  ??? Greta maybe??  I guess I'll have to be the first then!

Not for nothing but I think I'd rather go to the MET. Call me a homer but I would rather enjoy Wagner in the comfort of my home town only 20 minutes from my house. It's not like the singing, staging and conducting at Bayreuth is better than the MET.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on July 29, 2008, 05:23:49 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 29, 2008, 04:49:55 PM
Not for nothing but I think I'd rather go to the MET. Call me a homer but I would rather enjoy Wagner in the comfort of my home town only 20 minutes from my house. It's not like the singing, staging and conducting at Bayreuth is better than the MET.

While live performance and I don't get along very well, for various reasons, I follow you: I'd rather go to Chicago to catch something, which is three or so hours away than run all the way to Germany. The dollar floundering as it is, I'm not sure I'd want to see the bill for room and board. Also, I don't know that I'd really want to sit through some of the productions of recent years.

Still, I wouldn't mind going to Bayreuth for Parsifal, but that has more to do with sentiment than the realities of modern Wagnerian performance on the Green Hill.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on July 29, 2008, 10:33:26 PM
Quote from: PSmith08 on July 29, 2008, 05:23:49 PM


Still, I wouldn't mind going to Bayreuth for Parsifal, but that has more to do with sentiment than the realities of modern Wagnerian performance on the Green Hill.

  Yes Parsifal is the opera that often comes to mind when considering a trip to Bayreuth as Wagner wanted it to be performed there and ONLY there!  However and as much as I value the opera houses here in London I would imagine that Bayreuth is special in its own way, very special! If only for its historical significance, ambiance etc.. I am also very curious as to what happens at the festival, after all this is a festival.  Aren't there special musical and entertainment events that are hosted outside of performance hours??

  The other thing that has intrigued me is the long waitlist to get tickets to Bayreuth.  I have heard of ridiculous 8-10 years waitlist periods, kind of like a lottery system built on seniority.  How exactly this works I do not know but it is very intriguing that so many people want to go on this long journey to Germany from all over the world,  notwithstanding cost of course.

  marvin

     
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 30, 2008, 04:20:08 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on July 29, 2008, 04:37:50 PM
  PS:  So Lis, Renfield and PerfectWagnerite have not been to Bayreuth- I guess that leaves Sarge  8), yes I I'll bet he's been there!

I've been to the city of Bayreuth (made the pilgrimmage shortly after I moved to Germany in 1974) but have never attended a performance at the festival. In my youth, when I was an ardent Wagnerite, up for anything, I wanted to see the Ring at Bayreuth but the waiting period between applying for tickets and actually getting the tickets was around eight years. Being in the army, there was no way to plan that far ahead. By the time I retired I'd lost the desire. The thought of spending four to six hours sweating in a tux, enduring the heat of summer, sitting on a hard, uncomfortable chair just isn't appealing. Still, I continue to think about going, not to see a Ring but a Holländer...the shortest opera ;D 

I know there are ways to get tickets sooner. Tickets are still available for this year but you'll pay 1000 to 1500 Euro! That's another reason I don't ever see myself sitting in the Bayreuther Festspielhaus.

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 30, 2008, 06:04:00 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on July 29, 2008, 04:37:50 PMI also wonder if  Jezetha  8) has been to Bayreuth??

Alas, no. If I were a tone-deaf German politician and/or celebrity it would have been a piece of cake with no waiting-list in sight... My cousin, though, has seen the Festspielhaus with his own eyes, when he was on holiday in Germany... I still have the postcard he sent me.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wanderer on July 30, 2008, 06:27:31 AM
Quote from: Renfield on July 29, 2008, 03:11:51 PM
I'd have expected a dress code to be in place.

I have visited Germany thrice, but have never been in Bayreuth. As things stand, I don't think I'd be much interested in enduring all the required trouble for a potentially uncomfortable semi-religious Wagnerian operatic experience. I would exclude it altogether were there a mandatory dress code. I feel strongly against these things.  $:)

My next trip to Austria - Bavaria (whenever that will be) will probably include a visit to Bayreuth. If I were to attend a performance, I'd opt for either Die Walküre or Lohengrin.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on July 30, 2008, 07:52:17 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on July 29, 2008, 04:37:50 PM
   Incidentally can't one bring a pillow or a cushion to sit on??, or would that also get a hiss from the audience??

  marvin

Um Gotteswillen! I believe it's not de rigueur to carry a soft object into the hallowed auditorium, unless it's the natural part of body. Evidently leaving the opera with a sore arse is like a badge of honour. My friend is fortunate in that he resembles an aged Ernest Hemingway!  ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on July 30, 2008, 08:04:39 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 29, 2008, 04:49:55 PM
Not for nothing but I think I'd rather go to the MET. Call me a homer but I would rather enjoy Wagner in the comfort of my home town only 20 minutes from my house. It's not like the singing, staging and conducting at Bayreuth is better than the MET.

Well, now that you can occasionally find someone more lively than Mr. Levine on the podium for the major Wagnerian operas, quite true. (I will wickedly admit that I was secretly relieved he was laid up by a shoulder injury a couple of years ago when I paid an outrageous price to treat a friend to Parsifal in row C of the orchestra section. Peter Schneider was an excellent conductor that night, and I dressed comfortably as well.)

I haven't been to Bayreuth, but I've seen Wagner's house near Lucerne (Tribschen), the place where the Siegfried Idyll was premiered and the Meistersinger composed. That atmosphere was reverent enough, as I described in another post on this thread. But in regards to Bayreuth, I defer to Stravinsky's autobiography:

QuoteThe very atmosphere of the theatre, its design and its setting, seemed lugubrious. It was like a crematorium, and a very old-fashioned one at that, and one expected to see the gentleman in black who had been entrusted with the task of singing the praises of the departed. The order to devote oneself to contemplation was given by a blast of trumpets. I sat humble and motionless, but at the end of a quarter of an hour I could bear no more. My limbs were numb and I had to change my position. Crack! Now I had done it! My chair had made a noise which drew down on me the furious scowls of a hundred pairs of eyes. Once more I withdrew into myself, but I could think of only one thing, and that was the end of the act which would put and end to my martyrdom. At last the intermission arrived, and I was rewarded by two sausages and a glass of beer. But hardly had I had time to light a cigarette when the trumpet blast sounded again, demanding another period of contemplation. Another act to be got through, when all my thoughts were concentrated on my cigarette, of which I had had barely a whiff. I managed to bear the second act. Then there were more sausages, more beer, another trumpet blast, another period of contemplation, another act -- finis!"
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on July 30, 2008, 08:05:34 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on July 30, 2008, 06:27:31 AM
I have visited Germany thrice, but have never been in Bayreuth. As things stand, I don't think I'd be much interested in enduring all the required trouble for a potentially uncomfortable semi-religious Wagnerian operatic experience. I would exclude it altogether were there a mandatory dress code. I feel strongly against these things.  $:)

My next trip to Austria - Bavaria (whenever that will be) will probably include a visit to Bayreuth. If I were to attend a performance, I'd opt for either Die Walküre or Lohengrin.

If you can get tickets. There's usually a 10-year wait, with no guarantee.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wanderer on July 30, 2008, 08:14:58 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on July 30, 2008, 08:05:34 AM
If you can get tickets. There's usually a 10-year wait, with no guarantee.

I'm well aware of that, hence the rather cryptic yet all inclusive "required trouble" in my previous post.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Anne on August 01, 2008, 10:45:38 AM
Iago has been to Bayreuth.  He had no tickets in advance of his arrival.  He had no trouble getting tickets as he acquired them at performance time the same way as Lis' friend.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on August 03, 2008, 01:18:44 AM
  Sarge, Jezetha, Lis, Anne, Wanderer, PSmith08, Sforzando and other Wagner fans, Wagner affectionados, colleagues and friends thank you all for contributing your experiences, thoughts and impressions regarding Bayreuth! I am on holiday in Spain and have just seen all your responses so please pardon the delay in responding.  First let me say that this was hardly the reaction I was hoping to get from all of you!  But there seems to be a consensus amongst all of you that perhaps there are better, more comfortable and certainly more affordable ways of experiencing Wagner's operas than attending Bayreuth!  I guess in my usual naive over simplistic nature I was drawn to the "allure"....the "fantasy".... of attending what I deemed to be the ultimate Wagnerian experience- seeing an opera at Wagner's opera house!  I now have second doubts about going! I certainly can't afford 1000 to 1500 euros Sarge, and the thought of leaving that opera house with a sore arse is hardly appealing Lis! Stravinsky's autobiographical account does not sweeten the pot either Sforzando!

   Finally, Lis could you please translate  Um Gotteswillen for me??

  marvin

   
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 03, 2008, 01:26:48 AM
Am I allowed, too?

For God's sake! or For heaven's sake!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on August 03, 2008, 01:44:50 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on August 03, 2008, 01:26:48 AM
Am I allowed, too?

For God's sake! or For heaven's sake!

  LOL thanks Jezetha!

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on August 03, 2008, 09:02:34 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on August 03, 2008, 01:26:48 AM
Am I allowed, too?

For God's sake! or For heaven's sake!

Nice job, Jez!  :-*

Totally OT: Now show your talent with my native Bavarian: Eabbeamamalad!  A hint: It's something you'll have for Friaschdigg.  ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 03, 2008, 09:23:44 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on August 03, 2008, 09:02:34 AM
Nice job, Jez!  :-*

Totally OT: Now show your talent with my native Bavarian: Eabbeamamalad!  A hint: It's something you'll have for Friaschdigg.  ;D

You tell me what sort of jam Bavarians have for Frühstück!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on August 03, 2008, 09:30:59 AM
You are a genius! I am in awe!  :-*

It's Erdbeermarmelade. Confession: When I read it in a Der Spiegel short article, I had to say it a few times to identify the fruit in the jam!  ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 03, 2008, 09:32:46 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on August 03, 2008, 09:30:59 AM
You are a genius! I am in awe!  :-*

It's Erdbeermarmelade. Confession: When I read it in a Der Spiegel short article, I had to say it a few times to identify the fruit in the jam!  ;)

Now I can hear it too!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on August 03, 2008, 04:09:06 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on August 03, 2008, 01:18:44 AM
  Sarge, Jezetha, Lis, Anne, Wanderer, PSmith08, Sforzando and other Wagner fans, Wagner affectionados, colleagues and friends thank you all for contributing your experiences, thoughts and impressions regarding Bayreuth! I am on holiday in Spain and have just seen all your responses so please pardon the delay in responding.  First let me say that this was hardly the reaction I was hoping to get from all of you!  But there seems to be a consensus amongst all of you that perhaps there are better, more comfortable and certainly more affordable ways of experiencing Wagner's operas than attending Bayreuth!  I guess in my usual naive over simplistic nature I was drawn to the "allure"....the "fantasy".... of attending what I deemed to be the ultimate Wagnerian experience- seeing an opera at Wagner's opera house!  I now have second doubts about going! I certainly can't afford 1000 to 1500 euros Sarge, and the thought of leaving that opera house with a sore arse is hardly appealing Lis! Stravinsky's autobiographical account does not sweeten the pot either Sforzando!

    marvin

 

Oh Dear Marvin, between your lines I read sadness about being deprived of materialising this lifelong dream of yours: Attending a Wagner opera, in person, in his creation. I didn't intend my post that way, only issuing a warning, and I think so did your other Wagner friends, preparing you for what will await you. By all means, Marvin, put on your old tux, walk up The Hill and hope for a kind soul to give you a ticket. If you don't succeed, you know you have tried. If you don't go through all this, you'll propably live forever with the doubt: "I might have gotten a ticket!" - and then blame at least me for it all! - The sore arse will heal and you'll tell us it was worth the torture! -  :-*
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 03, 2008, 04:33:01 PM
I certainly want to hear Wagner in Bayreuth. I hope I'll become so famous, I can 'jump the queue'...  ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Renfield on August 03, 2008, 05:12:48 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on August 03, 2008, 04:33:01 PM
I certainly want to hear Wagner in Bayreuth. I hope I'll become so famous, I can 'jump the queue'...  ;)

Or you could try to impersonate a guest you can be certain will not attend, through whatever means. >:D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on August 04, 2008, 10:18:51 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on August 03, 2008, 04:09:06 PM
Oh Dear Marvin, between your lines I read sadness about being deprived of materialising this lifelong dream of yours: Attending a Wagner opera, in person, in his creation. I didn't intend my post that way, only issuing a warning, and I think so did your other Wagner friends, preparing you for what will await you. By all means, Marvin, put on your old tux, walk up The Hill and hope for a kind soul to give you a ticket. If you don't succeed, you know you have tried. If you don't go through all this, you'll propably live forever with the doubt: "I might have gotten a ticket!" - and then blame at least me for it all! - The sore arse will heal and you'll tell us it was worth the torture! -  :-*

  Thanks Lis I will keep that in mind. I have not given up yet and  I am currently doing more research regarding this matter.  I am looking at the Wagner society here in England as they every once in a while get tickets to Bayreuth.  Cost will always be an issue so I will have to budget this accordingly and unlike Jezetha I will never attain "so famous" a status so as to "jump" the queues!

  There is one think I am sure of, being in Bayreuth at that opera house, knowing that Wagner  0:) himself was there, conducting is going to overwhelm me!

  marvin

   
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: M forever on August 04, 2008, 10:55:56 AM
I don't think it's that extremely impossible to get tickets if you have some connections. I never heard an actual performance at the Festpielhaus, but my mother and step father went a few times although the last time is already many moons ago. They aren't that much into opera anyway but don't mind going once in a while ;D. I think they got the tickets from friends. I stopped by during the summer once right before the festival began and once when it was already running to visit people I knew in the orchestra, so I had the opportunity to hear some orchestra-only rehearsals (Parsifal with Sinopoli) and some stage rehearsals (Götterdämmerung with Levine) in the theater which was very interesting. The orchestra pit is very interesting, too, really deep and actually getting lower in stages towards the back, unlike most pits which are just flat. The half open lid does mute and darken the color the sound a little bit, but it can still get really loud in the auditorium when the 100 or so handpicked players play full steam ahead. :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 04, 2008, 11:00:16 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on August 04, 2008, 10:18:51 AM
and unlike Jezetha I will never attain "so famous" a status so as to "jump" the queues!

We're equally unfortunate at the moment, Bayreuth-wise, Marvin! My fame and fate lie in the lap of fickle gods...

(Interesting post, M.)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on August 04, 2008, 11:24:07 AM
You know, while it would require some long-range planning, there really is no reason not to start to send in the ticket forms. While I have now heard several times from several sources that it's not impossible to snag tickets from various sources, it's not a bad idea to get them in a sort of pincer move, assuming that one has the leisure time or the proximity to go hang out in Bayreuth.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on August 04, 2008, 12:10:41 PM
Quote from: Renfield on August 03, 2008, 05:12:48 PM
Or you could try to impersonate a guest you can be certain will not attend, through whatever means. >:D
Sounds like Ripley's solution!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Renfield on August 04, 2008, 12:14:49 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 04, 2008, 12:10:41 PM
Sounds like Ripley's solution!

The Talented Mr Herrenberg.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 04, 2008, 01:21:16 PM
Quote from: Renfield on August 04, 2008, 12:14:49 PM
The Talented Mr Herrenberg.

Should be an absorbing film... !  ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on August 05, 2008, 02:09:49 AM
Quote from: M forever on August 04, 2008, 10:55:56 AM
I don't think it's that extremely impossible to get tickets if you have some connections. I never heard an actual performance at the Festpielhaus, but my mother and step father went a few times although the last time is already many moons ago. They aren't that much into opera anyway but don't mind going once in a while ;D. I think they got the tickets from friends. I stopped by during the summer once right before the festival began and once when it was already running to visit people I knew in the orchestra, so I had the opportunity to hear some orchestra-only rehearsals (Parsifal with Sinopoli) and some stage rehearsals (Götterdämmerung with Levine) in the theater which was very interesting. The orchestra pit is very interesting, too, really deep and actually getting lower in stages towards the back, unlike most pits which are just flat. The half open lid does mute and darken the color the sound a little bit, but it can still get really loud in the auditorium when the 100 or so handpicked players play full steam ahead. :)

  Thanks M for posting this  :)!  I especially liked the part about how the half open lid of the sunken orchestra pit tends to darken the sound.  I can well imagine the effect that would have say on the opening of Die Walkure or the leitmotif of Fafner the dragon and the Siegfried Funeral March!!

  You mention that you were once at Bayreuth when the festival was already running.  What was the atmosphere, "ambiance",  like? I have been informed that people are in tuxes et al. Were there any special events in between performances that you found interesting?

  Finally regarding tickets I have no connections of any kind in Germany.  I have never even been there. I'll have to start applying for tickets ASAP and see what materializes. High on my priority list is the Ring Cycle and Tristan und Isolde and I am willing to wait a few years to catch either or.  But I fear that in my particular case beggars can't be choosers :-\.  Also as I have never been to Germany I would like to do some site seeing as well on my way to Bayreuth. So much to plan between now and then, let's see what happens??

  marvin     
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Anne on August 05, 2008, 12:21:32 PM
I've been on the internet since 1994 (if I remember correctly - whenever the OJ civil trial was offered on the internet but not on TV - we could read the transcripts).

On one of the sites someone said it was very easy to get tickets from his country.  Apparently a lot of tickets are allotted to that country because it had helped Germany,or Wagner, in the past.  I cannot remember the country but maybe some of you might.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 05, 2008, 12:35:06 PM
Quote from: Anne on August 05, 2008, 12:21:32 PM
I've been on the internet since 1994 (if I remember correctly - whenever the OJ civil trial was offered on the internet but not on TV - we could read the transcripts).

On one of the sites someone said it was very easy to get tickets from his country.  Apparently a lot of tickets are allotted to that country because it had helped Germany,or Wagner, in the past.  I cannot remember the country but maybe some of you might.

Switzerland perhaps, the country Wagner fled to after the failed revolution in Dresden, 1848.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Anne on August 05, 2008, 05:56:39 PM
You may be correct; I don't know.  Maybe if people would start asking other people if it is easy to get tickets in the various countries, perhaps the ID will be discovered again.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Iago on August 05, 2008, 10:45:57 PM
Anne is correct. I was at Bayreuth in 1968 or 1969 (I'm not sure which).
I suppose things have changed in the 40 years  that have passed since then but;...

I flew from NY to Paris. (spent one week there)
Then I took a student flight across the Channel to London. Such flights were also available to teachers. Spent a week in London
Then I took another student flight from London to Amsterdam, where I rented a car.
I drove through most of the European continent. From Amsterdam to Nuremberg, thence to Bayreuth. I arrived in Bayreuth the day prior to the opening of the festival, with NO opera tickets and NO hotel reservation. However, that didn't bother me since I could always sleep in the car if necessary. I did manage to get a room in the Bayreuth Hof, but was told by the Concierge that it would only be for one night as the rooms had been reserved for the entire length of the festival. But I took that room and spent the remainder of the day roaming the areas around the Opera house and visiting Wagners home and burial place.The next morning while reading the "Herald Tribune" in the lobby of the hotel and awaiting "checkout time", I overheard a patron asking the desk clerk, if her opera tickets had yet arrived?. The clerk said no, but I later learned that the mail was delivered two or three times a day in those years and that the hotels ticket allotment would probably be arriving in the 1 PM mail. I asked the clerk if there was a possibility of there being any "unaccounted for" tickets. She said to check back after they arrived. THERE WERE. I managed to purchase a ticket for the OPENING NIGHT - Der Fliegende Hollander under Silvio Varviso, with McIntyre, Talvela and Rysanek in major roles. Amazingly the clerk charged me EXACTLY the price on the face of the ticket. Imagine how much I would have to pay in "fees" if I tried to do the same thing for opening night at the Met?
The performance was stupefyingly awesome, and the opening music of the Overture still resounds in my memory. WHAT A SOUND!!!! Almost tactile.
Now I had no hotel room, but I tried some pensiones about 20 miles from Bayreuth. I managed to find one, where I was made to feel welcome, even though pictures of the landlords son in full Nazi Luftwaffe regalia hung on the walls.
The next day, I returned to the "hill" and managed to actually obtain a ticket for that nights performance of Parsifal, under Horst Stein. (Don't remember the cast- but I think Martha Modl was Kundry). I stayed in that pensione for two nights and then left for Munich.
From Munich, I drove to Salzburg, Austria, where I was able to attend a performance of Don Giovanni (under Von Karajan). Since I hate Mozart operas, that was a torture, but it was worthwhile to see HvK in Salzburg. Then across the Austrian and Italian Alps to Venice. Then to Pisa, Florence and finally Rome,  where I saw an Aida at the "Baths of Caracalla".   Spectacular production, but actually amateurishly sung, played and conducted.

Flew home from Rome. Trip lasted six weeks, and I never did have to sleep in the car.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 05, 2008, 10:51:46 PM
Thanks for this epic account, Iago!!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Renfield on August 06, 2008, 06:48:56 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on August 05, 2008, 10:51:46 PM
Thanks for this epic account, Iago!!

Inspirational, even. Thank you from me as well, Iago.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on August 07, 2008, 05:57:09 AM
Quote from: Iago on August 05, 2008, 10:45:57 PM
Anne is correct. I was at Bayreuth in 1968 or 1969 (I'm not sure which).
I suppose things have changed in the 40 years  that have passed since then but;...

I flew from NY to Paris. (spent one week there)
Then I took a student flight across the Channel to London. Such flights were also available to teachers. Spent a week in London
Then I took another student flight from London to Amsterdam, where I rented a car.
I drove through most of the European continent. From Amsterdam to Nuremberg, thence to Bayreuth. I arrived in Bayreuth the day prior to the opening of the festival, with NO opera tickets and NO hotel reservation. However, that didn't bother me since I could always sleep in the car if necessary. I did manage to get a room in the Bayreuth Hof, but was told by the Concierge that it would only be for one night as the rooms had been reserved for the entire length of the festival. But I took that room and spent the remainder of the day roaming the areas around the Opera house and visiting Wagners home and burial place.The next morning while reading the "Herald Tribune" in the lobby of the hotel and awaiting "checkout time", I overheard a patron asking the desk clerk, if her opera tickets had yet arrived?. The clerk said no, but I later learned that the mail was delivered two or three times a day in those years and that the hotels ticket allotment would probably be arriving in the 1 PM mail. I asked the clerk if there was a possibility of there being any "unaccounted for" tickets. She said to check back after they arrived. THERE WERE. I managed to purchase a ticket for the OPENING NIGHT - Der Fliegende Hollander under Silvio Varviso, with McIntyre, Talvela and Rysanek in major roles. Amazingly the clerk charged me EXACTLY the price on the face of the ticket. Imagine how much I would have to pay in "fees" if I tried to do the same thing for opening night at the Met?
The performance was stupefyingly awesome, and the opening music of the Overture still resounds in my memory. WHAT A SOUND!!!! Almost tactile.
Now I had no hotel room, but I tried some pensiones about 20 miles from Bayreuth. I managed to find one, where I was made to feel welcome, even though pictures of the landlords son in full Nazi Luftwaffe regalia hung on the walls.
The next day, I returned to the "hill" and managed to actually obtain a ticket for that nights performance of Parsifal, under Horst Stein. (Don't remember the cast- but I think Martha Modl was Kundry). I stayed in that pensione for two nights and then left for Munich.
From Munich, I drove to Salzburg, Austria, where I was able to attend a performance of Don Giovanni (under Von Karajan). Since I hate Mozart operas, that was a torture, but it was worthwhile to see HvK in Salzburg. Then across the Austrian and Italian Alps to Venice. Then to Pisa, Florence and finally Rome,  where I saw an Aida at the "Baths of Caracalla".   Spectacular production, but actually amateurishly sung, played and conducted.

Flew home from Rome. Trip lasted six weeks, and I never did have to sleep in the car.

  WOW Iago wonderful, absolutely wonderful thank you so much for contributing.  Now.....now,  if only I can be so lucky!

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: zamyrabyrd on August 09, 2008, 09:25:04 PM
Cool.

Quote from: Iago on August 05, 2008, 10:45:57 PM
Then to Pisa, Florence and finally Rome,  where I saw an Aida at the "Baths of Caracalla".   Spectacular production, but actually amateurishly sung, played and conducted.

Apart from La Scala, isn't the above more the rule rather than the exception in Italy?

ZB
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: M forever on August 09, 2008, 10:40:45 PM
Yes, it is. That is why, apart from the few people who work at La Scala, all musicians in Italy are amateurs. That is also why there are no professional conductors, singers, or instrumentalists from Italy who work elsewhere.  ::)


Seriously now, do you Americans all get dropped on your head right after you are born? What does it feel like to be so ............?

Edited by Knight
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on August 09, 2008, 10:49:06 PM
I agree with M, many of the provincial theatres have a good and long tradition. Abbado and Roberto Abbado, Muti and Chailly are just four good conductors who worked on a regular basis with provincial companies. Rome can often get its act together when the unions are not in dispute, Venice produces first class opera on a regular basis, Verona with its festival is neither entirely unknown or undistinguished.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: zamyrabyrd on August 10, 2008, 03:54:02 AM
Quote from: knight on August 09, 2008, 10:49:06 PM
I agree with M, many of the provincial theatres have a good and long tradition. Abbado and Roberto Abbado, Muti and Chailly are just four good conductors who worked on a regular basis with provincial companies. Rome can often get its act together when the unions are not in dispute, Venice produces first class opera on a regular basis, Verona with its festival is neither entirely unknown or undistinguished.
Mike

So you're all saying that first class opera is the rule rather than the exception in Italy, with all those homegrown contemporary great singers and conductors? Can you recommend any recent great DVD's apart from La Scala so I can run out and go buy them?

ZB
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on August 10, 2008, 04:29:59 AM
You are being sarcastic now....have a look through the catalogues for your self, but remember, there are masses of very good artists who never get recorded. What evidence have you that La Scala is the only company worth listening to?

I mentioned some and add to the list Naples, Palermo and Parma. Just as with other countries, they employ musicians from other countries. Opera Mag reviews them on occasion and often in the past I have noted favourably. Of course there can be variable standards.....rather like I have noticed at all the opera companies in the UK. Provincial opera companies in Italy is not my specialist subject. However, to suggest there is only one company worth listening to is absurd. 

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: zamyrabyrd on August 10, 2008, 06:26:20 AM
Quote from: knight on August 10, 2008, 04:29:59 AM
You are being sarcastic now....have a look through the catalogues for yourself, but remember, there are masses of very good artists who never get recorded. What evidence have you that La Scala is the only company worth listening to?

I mentioned some and add to the list Naples, Palermo and Parma. Just as with other countries, they employ musicians from other countries. Opera Mag reviews them on occasion and often in the past I have noted favourably. Of course there can be variable standards.....rather like I have noticed at all the opera companies in the UK. Provincial opera companies in Italy is not my specialist subject. However, to suggest there is only one company worth listening to is absurd. 

Mike

Mike, sweetheart, first of all, a QUESTION does not deserve an insult. I don't know what sharkface wrote and I don't appreciate either of you twisting what I said. I didn't say there was NO opera outside La Scala. I was just questioning whether outside its hallowed halls in Italy the rule is top quality. I have seen on many occasions Italian opera productions that were downright silly, in particular, Aida, that seems to be popular. Actually both of you can answer without being insulting. And it is a good question.

Because Opera may have originated in Italy back in 1600 and because so much development happened there, there is a lingering impression that it is still the cutting edge of vocal music. From what I read and heard that doesn't seems to be true. And Italians I have spoken to seem to think that opera ended with Puccini. But I MAY be wrong.

Instead, the focus on the HIGHEST levels SEEMS to have shifted to places like Berlin, Bayreuth, Vienna, London, Paris, Milan (of course) and the main companies of the US.

If any of you can't bother to be civil, don't bother to answer.

ZB

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wendell_E on August 10, 2008, 02:19:06 PM
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on August 10, 2008, 03:54:02 AM
Can you recommend any recent great DVD's apart from La Scala so I can run out and go buy them?


I've enjoyed the DVDs of Strauss' Daphne and Massenet's Thaïs from Venice's Teatro la Fenice, and Vivaldi's Ercole su'l Termodonte from the Spoleto Fetival.  I haven't actually seen them, but I've heard good things an Ariodante (also from Spoleto) and an Abbado-led Simon Boccanegra from the Florence May Festival.

Not on DVD but the CD recording of Le Comte Ory with Flórez from the Rossini Festival in Pesaro is pretty good, and I've heard good things about a live recording of Die Zauberflöte from Modena with Abbado conduting.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on August 10, 2008, 02:43:11 PM
You won't believe what my favorite Aida on DVD is: A 2001 production at the Teatro Giuseppe Verdi, directed by Franco Zefferelli, and staring students and recent graduates of that Busseto school. No big stars, a conductor I never heard of, and Zefferelli is definitely not my favourite director.

The enthusiasm and dedication to the opera displayed by everybody involved proved to me there is hope for the future of opera. Scott Piper a young black American, was moved to the brink of tears by the thundering applause he received not only for the big hit beginning aria, but at the end of the performance. There is not one bad voice in the entire cast, I love it!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sarastro on August 11, 2008, 05:39:08 PM
As an Italian-oriented opera lover just started with Wagner. Nothing very special, "Tristan und Isolde" with Nilsson and Windgassen. Stunning!!! Re-listened several times. Definitely, I must hear some more Wagner.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on August 12, 2008, 02:59:56 AM
Quote from: Sarastro on August 11, 2008, 05:39:08 PM
As an Italian-oriented opera lover just started with Wagner. Nothing very special, "Tristan und Isolde" with Nilsson and Windgassen. Stunning!!! Re-listened several times. Definitely, I must hear some more Wagner.

  Be prepared to be blown away by the Ring  0:)!

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sarastro on August 12, 2008, 11:27:20 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on August 12, 2008, 02:59:56 AM
  Be prepared to be blown away by the Ring  0:)!

I am already blown away by Salome! What is left of me for the Ring? ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on August 12, 2008, 11:39:18 AM
Quote from: Sarastro on August 12, 2008, 11:27:20 AM
I am already blown away by Salome! What is left of me for the Ring? ;D
Salome? Salome ain't a pimple compared to the Ring.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: uffeviking on August 12, 2008, 11:41:02 AM
No, next post is not about Wagner, but you mentioned Salome and I wonder which performance it was that blew you away. Not this one, it's not released yet, but here is little taste of it:

http://www.opusarte.com/pages/product.asp?ProductID=253

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sarastro on August 12, 2008, 12:13:44 PM
Quote from: uffeviking on August 12, 2008, 11:41:02 AM
No, next post is not about Wagner, but you mentioned Salome and I wonder which performance it was that blew you away. Not this one, it's not released yet, but here is little taste of it:

http://www.opusarte.com/pages/product.asp?ProductID=253

Scary pictures, indeed. I'd better stay with the music only. ;D Salome is so electrifying, I must hear some more Strauss either!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on September 01, 2008, 05:40:54 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 14, 2008, 03:52:21 PM
It's tough, even when one is retired, to find the three or four or more hours needed to give these works the attention they deserve. Webern is more user friendly  ;D

Sarge




I'm very lucky; with my schedule of students I have plenty of time to enjoy, study, and venerate my Wagner collection.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on September 01, 2008, 05:50:31 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on July 15, 2008, 05:40:14 AM
   7) Capriccio (I didn't know I had a recording of this opera  :o until I went "digging"  ;D into my collection)

  marvin
 


Love that opera. I have the Sawallisch/EMI, but am hoping for this one:
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on September 18, 2008, 12:57:30 PM
  Wagner fans I came across this and just had to post it:

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcfaC4yhUvs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcfaC4yhUvs)

  Fast forward to 2:14 minutes sit back and enjoy......I love it.... it's deliciously amusing!  I hope you find it as intriguing as I did.


  Edit:  Sorry stop at minute 4:24!

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wendell_E on September 18, 2008, 03:42:23 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on September 18, 2008, 12:57:30 PM
Edit:  Sorry stop at minute 4:24!


Or don't.  I liked the Wagner bit, but what follows is BLEEPin' hilarious!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on September 19, 2008, 05:34:46 PM
Quote from: Wendell_E on September 18, 2008, 03:42:23 PM
Or don't.  I liked the Wagner bit, but what follows is BLEEPin' hilarious!

Right. I ended up watching the whole program. There's no such thing as a bad time with Stephen Fry.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Anne on September 19, 2008, 09:08:07 PM
I watched the whole program also.  Thanks, Marv!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2008, 11:33:56 PM
Stephen Fry - brilliant chap. Great link, Marvin.

Btw - did anybody notice that the guy singing Wolfram's 'aria' about the evening star (O du mein holder Abendstern) from the Third Act of Tannhäuser was doing so not in German, but in Italian, Spanish??
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wendell_E on September 20, 2008, 03:29:38 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on September 19, 2008, 11:33:56 PM
Btw - did anybody notice that the guy singing Wolfram's 'aria' about the evening star (O du mein holder Abendstern) from the Third Act of Tannhäuser was doing so not in German, but in Italian, Spanish??

Ummm.  It's in English.  He sings "Star of eve, your tender beam".  I did some googling, and the next line in the translation, which you can't hear that well on the video, is "Falls on my spirit's troubled dream".
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 20, 2008, 03:39:45 AM
Quote from: Wendell_E on September 20, 2008, 03:29:38 AM
Ummm.  It's in English.  He sings "Star of Eve, your tender beam".  I did some googling, and the next line in the translation, which you can't hear that well on the video, is "Falls on my spirit's troubled dream".

English!! I couldn't hear it. I didn't listen very closely... ;D :-[
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on September 20, 2008, 05:43:27 AM

Wendell_E, Jezetha, Anne, PSmith08 I am glad you enjoyed it!  I have not been contributing much lately as I am so busy with work, my relationship, life etc. but when I saw this clip and especially the part on Wagner I thought.....you must post this for others to see :D!!


  PS: I can't make out the language of that aria either...but it does not sound English  ??? ?? 
 
  marvin 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on October 21, 2008, 07:36:19 AM
  Wagner fans! Where are you?  What? No one has posted here in over a month??  :(  Have we abandoned this very fine composer?  Have we lost all appetite for his operas??  A few weeks ago on the SkyArts channel I was lucky enough to catch the 3rd Act of this production of Tristan und Isolde:

  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51TW68YV6HL._SS500_.jpg)

  From what I saw it proved to be a rather dark, sombre production of this opera. What you see on the cover (excluding the blue sea)  is the set design for Act 3. Kollo had aged, I felt he was a bit too old appearancewise to be Tristan but he delivered vocally nontheless. Jones was good as Isolde, passionate and attractive.  I can not comment further as I have only seen Act 3. I would have liked to see Acts 1 and 2 but I can not find a recording of this opera anywhere  >:(!  amazon.co.uk lists it as currently unavailable  >:( >:(!

  so did anyone else watch a Wagnerian opera recently? If yes,  what did you see?

  marvin 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on October 21, 2008, 01:22:19 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on October 21, 2008, 07:36:19 AM
  Wagner fans! Where are you?  What? No one has posted here in over a month??  :(  Have we abandoned this very fine composer?  Have we lost all appetite for his operas??  A few weeks ago on the SkyArts channel I was lucky enough to catch the 3rd Act of this production of Tristan und Isolde:

  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51TW68YV6HL._SS500_.jpg)

  From what I saw it proved to be a rather dark, sombre production of this opera. What you see on the cover (excluding the blue sea)  is the set design for Act 3. Kollo had aged, I felt he was a bit too old appearancewise to be Tristan but he delivered vocally nontheless. Jones was good as Isolde, passionate and attractive.  I can not comment further as I have only seen Act 3. I would have liked to see Acts 1 and 2 but I can not find a recording of this opera anywhere  >:(!  amazon.co.uk lists it as currently unavailable  >:( >:(!

  so did anyone else watch a Wagnerian opera recently? If yes,  what did you see?

  marvin 


I listen to Wagner every day. Today Solti's Gotterdammerung, Act III. Also the Barenboim Tristan und Isolde dvd, Act III.

I think I've heard that dvd on a live broadcast radio performance. Very good.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wendell_E on October 21, 2008, 01:53:11 PM
Quote from: AndyD. on October 21, 2008, 01:22:19 PM
I listen to Wagner every day.

Are you sure that's healthy?   ;D

I listened to Hollreiser's EMI recording of Rienzi yesterday.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Tsaraslondon on October 21, 2008, 02:06:32 PM
Quote from: AndyD. on October 21, 2008, 01:22:19 PM

I listen to Wagner every day.

Where do you find the time?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on October 21, 2008, 02:24:35 PM
I am watching Wagner right now! It's a 1966 production of Lohengrin with Gösta Winbergh and Karita Mattila. Somehow I have my doubt about the date listed because it would make Mattila now in her sixties. Somebody taped it from a web cast with James Conlon conducting the Robert Carsen direction.

You are asking what am I doing sitting in my study posting at GMG with Lohengrin on the projection set in the music room? For one, this it not one of my favorite Wagner works, and second the production is almost black and white with a bright blue sky adding the only colour. Maybe it will improve when the shining knight adds some life to the drab set.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on October 21, 2008, 02:42:50 PM
Quote from: AndyD. on October 21, 2008, 01:22:19 PM

Also the Barenboim Tristan und Isolde dvd, Act III.

I think I've heard that dvd on a live broadcast radio performance. Very good.

  Which Barenboim Andy  8)? , I have the one with Kollo, Meier (Johanna) at Bayreuth.  You know the one with the rather strange ending.

Quote from: Wendell_E on October 21, 2008, 01:53:11 PM
Are you sure that's healthy?   ;D

I listened to Hollreiser's EMI recording of Rienzi yesterday.

  I have that same recording although it has been a while since I gave it a spin.  I really do wish they would stage that opera and release it on DVD, all to the dismay of Wagner I am sure (he hated its neverending popularity).

  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/417FE26P96L._SS400_.jpg)

Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on October 21, 2008, 02:24:35 PM
I am watching Wagner right now! It's a 1966 production of Lohengrin with Gösta Winbergh and Karita Mattila. Somehow I have my doubt about the date listed because it would make Mattila now in her sixties. Somebody taped it from a web cast with James Conlon conducting the Robert Carsen direction.

You are asking what am I doing sitting in my study posting at GMG with Lohengrin on the projection set in the music room? For one, this it not one of my favorite Wagner works, and second the production is almost black and white with a bright blue sky adding the only colour. Maybe it will improve when the shining knight adds some life to the drab set.

  Black and white ?? I don't think I like the sound of that.  But I do agree with you that Lohengrin always remains my least favorite of Wagner's opera.  Sure it has some fine moments, especially the dark moments involving Ortrud summoning the Gods (Wotan et al.) for revenge against Lohengrin and that ever popular "Here Comes the Bride" tune. However I find that it has a fair amount of oh what's the expression I am looking for "dead wood".  It doesn't flow as well as Wagner's other operas. I must be in the minority here but I much prefer Tannhauser to Lohengrin. 

and finally.....
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on October 21, 2008, 02:06:32 PM
Where do you find the time?

  we make time Tsaraslondon, on top of my career, my relationship, my friendships, all time consumming mind you I have to "squeeze" Wagner in otherwise I'd go insane  ;D!

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on October 21, 2008, 04:04:26 PM
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on October 21, 2008, 02:06:32 PM
Where do you find the time?


a) I work out of my home.
b) I have a very tolerant fiancee, whom is an opera fan as well (she's weird, she loves Der Fliegende Hollander best...still a great one).


My "Wagner Experience" has been on of the most positive experiences of my life. Wagner's use of psychological archetypes helps me learn things about myself and the things/events and people in my life. It also helps to go deeper and deeper in to the works, listening to at least pieces of them alot.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on October 21, 2008, 04:11:13 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on October 21, 2008, 02:42:50 PM
  Which Barenboim Andy  8)? , I have the one with Kollo, Meier (Johanna) at Bayreuth.  You know the one with the rather strange ending.

That's the one, Marvin. I actually thought that ending was very sad and beautiful in a way. But I also spin the HvK alot.

I didn't like the second act in the Barenboin/Kollo dvd. I thought the pacing was at times sluggish.


   
Quote from: marvinbrown on October 21, 2008, 02:42:50 PMwe make time Tsaraslondon, on top of my career, my relationship, my friendships, all time consumming mind you I have to "squeeze" Wagner in otherwise I'd go insane  ;D!

  marvin

JA!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ChamberNut on October 21, 2008, 05:20:31 PM
Marvin,

No worries, I've been listening to a lot of Wagner recently too.  Lately, Die Walkure and Siegfried.

Since May of this year, I've listened to Wagner more than any other composer, and that's not a sentence I thought I'd ever write.   ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on October 22, 2008, 03:15:08 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on October 21, 2008, 05:20:31 PM
Marvin,

No worries, I've been listening to a lot of Wagner recently too.  Lately, Die Walkure and Siegfried.

Since May of this year, I've listened to Wagner more than any other composer, and that's not a sentence I thought I'd ever write.   ;D


It's been the same for me in 2008. Although I've spun a whole bunch of latter-era Anton Bruckner this year (there's not a huge amount of difference between the two now, is there), Wagner has been my primary listening by far.

Wagner, and Metal.

But I guess there isn't too terribly much of a difference between the above variables, really.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wendell_E on October 22, 2008, 03:22:56 AM
Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on October 21, 2008, 02:24:35 PM
I am watching Wagner right now! It's a 1966 production of Lohengrin with Gösta Winbergh and Karita Mattila. Somehow I have my doubt about the date listed because it would make Mattila now in her sixties.

I guess that was the Paris production, with Gwyneth Jones?  If so, 1996 is the correct date.  Mattila would have been six years old in 1966 and Winbergh would have been twenty-two.  That'd be creepy.   :o
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Harry on October 22, 2008, 03:23:38 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on October 22, 2008, 03:15:08 AM

Wagner, and Metal.

But I guess there isn't too terribly much of a difference between the above variables, really.

Agreed! ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on October 22, 2008, 07:49:00 AM
Quote from: Harry's Corner on October 22, 2008, 03:23:38 AM
Agreed! ;D


Rock on, Harry dude.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on October 22, 2008, 10:17:35 AM
Quote from: Wendell_E on October 22, 2008, 03:22:56 AM
I guess that was the Paris production, with Gwyneth Jones?  If so, 1996 is the correct date.  Mattila would have been six years old in 1966 and Winbergh would have been twenty-two.  That'd be creepy.   :o

Thank you, Wendell! I contacted my giving friend and he admitted to doing an odd thing on the disc with the sixes, '1996'.

Have you seen this production? Don't bother to look for it, it's awful! Unless of course you are a Carson fan.  ::)

Jones is at her best turkey imitation, which is a shame because I admired her Brünnhilde with John Tomlinson's Wotan.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 22, 2008, 06:59:21 PM
Has anybody read Nietzsche's Der Fall Wagner (The Wagner Case) ?

I find some of its iconoclastic pronouncements quite illuminating. Such as Wagner is a disease, which is one of the less provocative ones. Nietzsche had gone full circle from convert to ardent foe. Of course he knew Wagner the man, so this may have something to do with it.

Bracing myself to a Frida Leider Götterdämmerung repast. 0:)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on October 22, 2008, 07:45:14 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on October 22, 2008, 06:59:21 PM
Has anybody read Nietzsche's Der Fall Wagner (The Wagner Case) ?


Yes, André, I did. I wish I would have been able to get the book in it's original language, but I accept Walter Kaufmann's translation. Somehow I can't forget my immediate reaction to reading it: 'Friedrich, you are sore because Richard walked out of the room laughing when you played for him your own piano composition!'

There is another book with the same subjects: Nietzche & Wagner, subtitled A Lesson in Subjugation by Joachim Köhler. It's been some time since I read it, but it must be good, otherwise I would not have kept it.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on October 23, 2008, 09:59:38 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on October 22, 2008, 06:59:21 PM
Has anybody read Nietzsche's Der Fall Wagner (The Wagner Case) ?

I find some of its iconoclastic pronouncements quite illuminating. Such as Wagner is a disease, which is one of the less provocative ones. Nietzsche had gone full circle from convert to ardent foe. Of course he knew Wagner the man, so this may have something to do with it.

Bracing myself to a Frida Leider Götterdämmerung repast. 0:)


I've read all of Nietzsche's Wagner writings. I put them squarely in the category of sour grapes: Nietzsche wanted to be a composer/artiste. Wagner told him the truth about his composing skills, and he held it against him. There's also the "Son wanting to completely distance himself from the Father" archetype between the two men. In fact, the Wagner/Nietzsche relationship is a textbook example of this.


I must be completely fair here and point out that Nietzsche was often a very brilliant writer for a philosopher, whereas Wagner was a poor writer and lame philosopher. Wagner's genius, as you all know, involved the way he made character and situational motifs into psychological profiles in his operas. Without the music, his writings falter for the most part.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on October 23, 2008, 11:06:07 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on October 23, 2008, 09:59:38 AM
I've read all of Nietzsche's Wagner writings. I put them squarely in the category of sour grapes: Nietzsche wanted to be a composer/artiste. Wagner told him the truth about his composing skills, and he held it against him. There's also the "Son wanting to completely distance himself from the Father" archetype between the two men. In fact, the Wagner/Nietzsche relationship is a textbook example of this.

I don't know that there's any need to resort to archetypes in analyzing what happened between Wagner and Nietzsche. We're not talking about Götterdämmerung here, but, rather, a conflict between a great artist and a great intellect. The relationship began to sour around 1874 and Nietzsche reported that he had said farewell to Wagner in his heart (paraphrasing, but not by much) during the first Festspiele in 1876. This is, of course, complicated by the completion and publication of Richard Wagner in Bayreuth at roughly the same time, which work -- collected in Unzeitgemässe Betrachtungen -- makes the "squarely in the category of sour grapes" judgment somewhat complicated if not untenable.

Indeed, when one looks at the comments on Wagner in Die Geburt der Tragödie, one sees that Nietzsche, at least in 1872, saw Wagner as some sort of heir to the Greek tragedians about whom he wrote. That doesn't sound like "sour grapes" to me. Reading all of Nietzsche's works on Wagner, it is easy to see that Nietzsche never abandoned the Geburt way of approaching art in his praise and, then, criticism of Wagner -- Wagner in Bayreuth is full of language that echoes Geburt. The critique of Wagner in Der Fall Wagner and Nietzsche Contra Wagner, furthermore, glances at some of the ideas in Geburt, though some of Nietzsche's later philosophy makes a greater contribution in the later works. I think that the personal friction between Wagner and Nietzsche, which had something to do with Nietzsche's fondness for Brahms, too, is one element in approaching the Wagner works, but leaving out the sweep of his thought on the matter and his other theories would be an error.

It is tempting to cast Nietzsche as the hurt admirer turning his formidable intellect against Wagner, but there's more to it than that. Nietzsche's critique maintains a sort of internal consistency, both within the Wagner works and within his works more broadly. I don't think that Nietzsche-as-hurt-admirer or Nietzsche-as-rebellious-child can quite explain a thematic and intellectual consistency, which makes the arguments interesting if not cogent. The psychologist need not speak up when the philosopher can handle the problem. The fact of the matter is that the situation was complicated and some of Wagner's positions and works naturally cut against some of Nietzsche's theories on the art and life. This is, of course, not all that important, since Wagner and Nietzsche can both be appreciated -- for different reasons -- without recreating the conflict (which was pretty one-sided).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: samuel on November 03, 2008, 10:46:51 AM
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z208/samdrophy/knapp.jpg)

I would just like to take the time to draw attention to this very special recording of Die Meistersinger von Nuernberg, my favorite opera. This was the first studio recording of Die Meistersinger, recorded in 1950 and 1951 with Hans Knappertsbusch conducting the Vienna Philharmonic and an excellent cast of singers. Above all, Paul Schoeffler's portrayal of Hans Sachs has so much warmth and humanity that I am convinced it is one of the most moving Wagner performances on record. Hilde Gueden, who has always impressed me in her lyric soprano roles (Susanna, Zerlina, Sophie, etc.), brings such youthful radiance to her portrayal of Eva that I cannot imagine a more heartfelt voice in that role. And Anton Dermota, one of the great lyric tenors in Mozart and Strauss, is a note-perfect David. The rest of the cast includes Guenther Treptow as Walther, Otto Edelmann as Pogner, and Karl Doench as Beckmesser. Knappertsbusch, who is known for controversial tempos, is surprisingly fleet and graceful here. The opening prelude has never sounded so lively and noble, while the prelude to Act III is serene and poignant. The excellent combination of conducting and singing on this set make it, along with Erich Kleiber's Figaro and Rosenkavalier, one of the three opera recordings I would take to the desert island.

Note: The Decca Historical Series version of this set as pictured above is OOP ($49.99 on ArkivMusic); however I believe Naxos has released it as part of their series of historical opera recordings. I urge you to give it a listen if you haven't already done so!

Sam =) 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on December 11, 2008, 11:02:19 PM
On impulse I bought the Chandos single CD issue of 'Wagner's Ring, An Orchestral Adventure'. I had read that instead of bleeding chunks, we get a symphony in four movements. True up to a point. It is satisfying and frustrating in equal measures. Lots of passages any Wagnerian would able to whistle complete are foreshortened in favour of some being touched upon. Of course, there are problems condensing 15 hours to one, lots has to go, including lots one might like to have heard. Some passages are more complete than others, for example, the final few minutes of Gotterdammerung.

Sometimes the vocal line is there, but often it is not and the arranger, Henk de Viger, seems to have stuck pretty well to Wagner's orchestrations, rather than allocate instruments to the missing vocal lines. I think the vocal line only appears where it is shadowed by an instrument in the original.

The booklet does explain the symphonic structure, Rheingold providing a first movement, Walkure a Scherzo, Siegfried a slow movement and Gotterdammerung, with recapitulations from elsewhere in the cycle, a satisfying final movement.

Possibly it might come across that way to someone who did not know the music; but I find the four movements to have all the contrasts of each opera within them and no long breathed themes with variations that symphonists usually play with. The cycle is so protean that really we get an extended suite packed with great music.

Where this version scores over the bleeding chunks approach, or Maazel's Ring Without Words, is that the tailoring of one part of the music to join another has no unpleasant bumps, the bridges are pretty much all Wagner's. There are some modulations to get from one place to another that Wagner did not use, but the music is his rather than invented Wagner-like passages.

I could not detect any ideological bringing together of motifs in a new way. I am surprised no one has tried this. We get an episodic progression through the Ring.

The CD cover has it right, forget the 'Symphony' concept; treat it more akin to one of Liszt's Opera Paraphrases. On that level it is very enjoyable.

The Royal Scottish National Orchestra is on good form, lots of superb horn opportunities. Neeme Jarvi guides them through, but I think some of the real drama could be brought out more, especially around Siegfried's Funeral music, which can be jaw dropping.

Not a disc for purists, very much a good introduction for people who don't like either vocal music or hardcore Wagner. I know I will listen to it on my iPod quite often; as I enjoyed spotting the transitions and it does have such great music, even though so much is inevitably missing.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on December 22, 2008, 03:56:59 PM
Now that sounds really cool, Mike. I can't believe I hadn't heard of it.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on December 22, 2008, 04:01:51 PM
Very interesting, Mike (and Andy).

(And, no, I haven't cracked open most of the Ring in the Big Bayreuth Box.)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on December 22, 2008, 04:03:48 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 22, 2008, 04:01:51 PM
Very interesting, Mike (and Andy).

(And, no, I haven't cracked open most of the Ring in the Big Bayreuth Box.)


Hey, there is a Big Bayreuth Box!?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on December 22, 2008, 04:06:02 PM
Quote from: AndyD. on December 22, 2008, 04:03:48 PM

Hey, there is a Big Bayreuth Box!?

Behold!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31-flS6c96L._SL500_AA180_.jpg)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on December 22, 2008, 04:37:37 PM
Quote from: AndyD. on December 22, 2008, 04:03:48 PM

Hey, there is a Big Bayreuth Box!?

  Andy   8) it's got one of the best Tristan und Isoldes on record! The 1966 recording at Bayreuth with Nilsson and Windgassen  0:).  It is also very affordable, I recently saw it at HMV for £35 (about $50). 

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on December 22, 2008, 09:19:24 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on December 22, 2008, 04:37:37 PM
  Andy   8) it's got one of the best Tristan und Isoldes on record! The 1966 recording at Bayreuth with Nilsson and Windgassen  0:).  It is also very affordable, I recently saw it at HMV for £35 (about $50). 

  marvin

Let's not forget, however, that James Levine's 1985 Parsifal is not entirely successful. Where a conductor like Leonard Bernstein could slow a Wagner score, namely Tristan, down a bit to plumb the emotional depths of Wagner's work, Levine (c. 1985) merely produced a self-consciously grand reading, which was, I should note, a far cry from the best recordings of Knappertsbusch, when he put on the brakes. Of course, the set makes up for this weak patch with Silvio Varviso's deeply interesting 1974 Meistersinger. Probably not the best-cast, which crown goes to Reiner's 1955 Vienna Staatsoper set or Böhm's 1968 Bayreuth set, but as far as the orchestra goes, Varviso's set is a winner. The Böhm Tristan is, or should be, a known quantity. It's a fine starter, but one will want either Kleiber or Bernstein (and probably either Furtwängler or Runnicles, too) after a while.

The Wagner Cube is a great set and a great bargain, largely because many of its included components were last available in the now-OOP Philips Richard Wagner Edition (which substituted, as I recall, most notably Boulez for Böhm in the Ring, Nelsson for Sawallisch in Holländer, and Schneider for Sawallisch in Lohengrin -- which recordings are, by and large, available elsewhere. Except, maybe, Schneider's Lohengrin on CD).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on December 23, 2008, 06:47:47 AM
Heyyy....sounds like magnificent T und I! Pretty inexpensive as well....
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 26, 2008, 07:00:53 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 22, 2008, 04:06:02 PM
Behold!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31-flS6c96L._SL500_AA180_.jpg)

Available for peanuts and, as such things go, with no notes or librettos. Instead we have a cursory but detailed enough  scene by scene, track by track plot description. For less than 60$, I don't think one could possibly quibble about the contents. From what I gather, the aim was to present stereo productions form Bayreuth that were once available on one of the Polygram conglomerate labels (Decca, DGG, Philips). What we get is an assemblage of performances that center round two strong, no-nonsense men of the pit, Sawallisch (Lohengrin, Tannhaüser, Fliegende Holländer) and Böhm (Ring, Tristan). The series is completed with Varviso's Meistersinger and Levine's Parsifal.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on December 26, 2008, 09:45:41 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on December 26, 2008, 07:00:53 PM
Available for peanuts and, as such things go, with no notes or librettos. Instead we have a cursory but detailed enough  scene by scene, track by track plot description. For less than 60$, I don't think one could possibly quibble about the contents. From what I gather, the aim was to present stereo productions form Bayreuth that were once available on one of the Polygram conglomerate labels (Decca, DGG, Philips). What we get is an assemblage of performances that center round two strong, no-nonsense men of the pit, Sawallisch (Lohengrin, Tannhaüser, Fliegende Holländer) and Böhm (Ring, Tristan). The series is completed with Varviso's Meistersinger and Levine's Parsifal.

The only bargain reissue, to my knowledge, that has gotten the libretto situation even remotely correct was, oddly enough, Warner's issue of Barenboim's Bayreuth Ring. In that case, they merely reissued the texts that came with the individual original issues. That was nice because, in addition to the reasonably good essays and synopses, the libretti were illustrated with the relevant Leitmotiven. While a separate volume or other such source is helpful for real study of the Ring, the libretti with that Teldec/Warner set were pretty solid starting points.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: greg on January 23, 2009, 08:21:47 PM
I have a question..... i don't know how to put it- i'll just say it like this: I'm interested in learning about the influence that Tristan und Isolde has had on Mahler's use of harmony. Are there any recorded thoughts of his about this opera. Obviously, he's conducted it before, but, specifically, what did he think about it?

Also, what was Wagner thinking when he wrote it? I'm thinking about the Prelude and ending, since i'm not familiar with much else. What made him start writing with all of these suspensions? What was he thinking? (i'm dying to learn about this!)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on January 24, 2009, 10:32:59 AM
Quote from: G$ on January 23, 2009, 08:21:47 PM
I have a question..... i don't know how to put it- i'll just say it like this: I'm interested in learning about the influence that Tristan und Isolde has had on Mahler's use of harmony. Are there any recorded thoughts of his about this opera. Obviously, he's conducted it before, but, specifically, what did he think about it?

Also, what was Wagner thinking when he wrote it? I'm thinking about the Prelude and ending, since i'm not familiar with much else. What made him start writing with all of these suspensions? What was he thinking? (i'm dying to learn about this!)

To get the second answer to your question, you'd probably need to seek out Cosima Wagner's diaries, which are only marginally more reliable than Wagner's own Mein Leben, Wagner's correspondence, and perhaps his notes from the time surrounding the composition. You could also check out some of the standard scholarly biographies and commentaries on the work. In other words, you would probably have to do a fairly substantial research project, since I'm unaware of some pithy quote on the subject. Maybe there is one, but it's not coming to mind immediately.

As to Mahler, De la Grange surely has an answer to your question.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on January 24, 2009, 02:04:26 PM
Quote from: PSmith08 on January 24, 2009, 10:32:59 AM
To get the second answer to your question, you'd probably need to seek out Cosima Wagner's diaries, which are only marginally more reliable than Wagner's own Mein Leben, Wagner's correspondence, and perhaps his notes from the time surrounding the composition. You could also check out some of the standard scholarly biographies and commentaries on the work. In other words, you would probably have to do a fairly substantial research project, since I'm unaware of some pithy quote on the subject. Maybe there is one, but it's not coming to mind immediately.

As to Mahler, De la Grange surely has an answer to your question.


First off, Congratulations on your excellent site!

I wonder if Wagner might have written something as radical as Tristan und Isolde because he finally had the freedom to write it. Although Lohengrin and the first 2/3 (roughly) of the Ring certainly had some harmonic daredeviltries, T und I is just a blockbuster of innovation easily comparable to the Grosse Fuge (my opinion). Sonata form was mostly thrown out the window, though one could argue for its presence as an antagonistic element.

Anyhoo, sorry for the self-conscious rant (only thing I'm good for here, besides pictures of my girl), but yeah I am guessing at least part of the reason T und I came into being was because Wagner had the relative freedom to do it.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: greg on January 24, 2009, 03:37:39 PM
Quote from: PSmith08 on January 24, 2009, 10:32:59 AM
To get the second answer to your question, you'd probably need to seek out Cosima Wagner's diaries, which are only marginally more reliable than Wagner's own Mein Leben, Wagner's correspondence, and perhaps his notes from the time surrounding the composition. You could also check out some of the standard scholarly biographies and commentaries on the work. In other words, you would probably have to do a fairly substantial research project, since I'm unaware of some pithy quote on the subject. Maybe there is one, but it's not coming to mind immediately.

As to Mahler, De la Grange surely has an answer to your question.
Thanks for the references.  :) I'll get to that...
but for now, no quick summary, like a sentence? It'd be nice, though I'd understand if something like this couldn't be summarized in just a few words.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on January 24, 2009, 05:31:34 PM
Quote from: G$ on January 24, 2009, 03:37:39 PM
Thanks for the references.  :) I'll get to that...
but for now, no quick summary, like a sentence? It'd be nice, though I'd understand if something like this couldn't be summarized in just a few words.

To be honest, I'm not sufficiently well-versed in Wagner's own comments on the composition of Tristan to give you a summary. I get the sense that there's no easy answer to your question. The time of Tristan was a very active time in Wagner's life, not that he too many inactive moments, and I'm not sure that he wrote his motivations down in the detail you want. I could be wrong, and someone who is better versed in Wagner's prose and correspondence might be able to answer your question definitively.

Wagner undoubtedly had a reason for doing what he did, one -- I'm sure -- that would be eminently reasonable and obvious, largely because once a genius explains himself, you realize that there is no other acceptable way to do it. Whether or not he sat down and explained it is another question.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: greg on January 24, 2009, 07:02:03 PM
Or maybe it could be just a simple choice to make use of certain ideas just by playing around with them? Either way, it'd be interesting to know.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Josquin des Prez on January 27, 2009, 10:59:51 AM
I don't see how Wagner influenced Mahler at all. Bruckner, Liszt, Berlioz, Beethoven, i see all of these in his music, but no Wagner. 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: greg on January 27, 2009, 11:18:11 AM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on January 27, 2009, 10:59:51 AM
I don't see how Wagner influenced Mahler at all. Bruckner, Liszt, Berlioz, Beethoven, i see all of these in his music, but no Wagner. 
Ha, really? No connection between much of Mahler's idiom and the ending of Tristan und Isolde?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on January 30, 2009, 06:15:12 AM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on January 27, 2009, 10:59:51 AM
I don't see how Wagner influenced Mahler at all. Bruckner, Liszt, Berlioz, Beethoven, i see all of these in his music, but no Wagner. 

I suppose that, were one to have never made it past the first part of Mahler's 8th, there might be something to that.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 06, 2009, 03:09:42 AM
G$, why not read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_chord

There is a vast literature about Tristan's harmonic language. 'All these suspensions' you talk about are to do with Tristan's central idea - unfulfilled longing. Resolution only comes in the end (E major) when both protagonists find fulfilment in death. I simplify, but this is what it boils down to. You could also study the relationship Schopenhauer-Wagner. Schopenhauer's philosophy underpins T & I.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on February 06, 2009, 02:06:41 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on February 06, 2009, 03:09:42 AM
G$, why not read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_chord

There is a vast literature about Tristan's harmonic language. 'All these suspensions' you talk about are to do with Tristan's central idea - unfulfilled longing. Resolution only comes in the end (E major) when both protagonists find fulfilment in death. I simplify, but this is what it boils down to. You could also study the relationship Schopenhauer-Wagner. Schopenhauer's philosophy underpins T & I.


Great post! Bryan Magee's book The Tristan Chord goes on at fascinating length in regard to the relationship between T and I and Schoepenhauer.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on February 06, 2009, 03:36:31 PM
Stepping away from T&I for a few seconds:

And there is Michael Kristensen as an indescribable greatest acting Loge in the much talked about Copenhagen Ring which the mailman brought me less than two hours ago. First act just finished but I had to take time out to catch my breath, and to assure you, this Ring is not as bad as has been written and talked about, at least not as the first act of Rheingold is concerned. Of course there is a lot more ahead of me - and you! - but I am still overwhelmed by the perfect singing, and also this truly great acting of Kristensen.

The music played by the Royal Danish Opera under Michel Schønwandt is nothing to sneeze at either! On my way down to Nibelheim, see you later!

Lis
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: greg on February 06, 2009, 04:24:27 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on February 06, 2009, 03:09:42 AM
G$, why not read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_chord

There is a vast literature about Tristan's harmonic language. 'All these suspensions' you talk about are to do with Tristan's central idea - unfulfilled longing. Resolution only comes in the end (E major) when both protagonists find fulfilment in death. I simplify, but this is what it boils down to. You could also study the relationship Schopenhauer-Wagner. Schopenhauer's philosophy underpins T & I.
I've read that article. Makes sense to me if analyzed on the second degree in A Minor, with just the D# thrown in as a chromatic.

Quote from: AndyD. on February 06, 2009, 02:06:41 PM

Great post! Bryan Magee's book The Tristan Chord goes on at fascinating length in regard to the relationship between T and I and Schoepenhauer.
Wow, a whole book about that?  :D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on February 06, 2009, 07:59:42 PM
Something for all Georg Solti and Schenk/Levine worshippers to start tongue-wagging:
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: T-C on February 06, 2009, 10:37:14 PM
In Das Rheingold, Johan Reuter sings Wotan and he is Ok, but the Wotan of the remaining operas - James Johnson - is the better singer and actor. He is one of the best singers in the Copenhagen Ring.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 06, 2009, 11:18:02 PM
Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on February 06, 2009, 03:36:31 PM
Stepping away from T&I for a few seconds:

And there is Michael Kristensen as an indescribable greatest acting Loge in the much talked about Copenhagen Ring which the mailman brought me less than two hours ago. First act just finished but I had to take time out to catch my breath, and to assure you, this Ring is not as bad as has been written and talked about, at least not as the first act of Rheingold is concerned. Of course there is a lot more ahead of me - and you! - but I am still overwhelmed by the perfect singing, and also this truly great acting of Kristensen.

The music played by the Royal Danish Opera under Michel Schønwandt is nothing to sneeze at either! On my way down to Nibelheim, see you later!

Lis

Give my regards to Alberich.

And thanks for the info about this performance!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on February 06, 2009, 11:27:42 PM
John Reuter was Theseus in Birtwistle's Minotaur, very impressing then and I was kind of looking forward to hear and see his Wotan in Die Walküre, hear him sing "Leb' wohl"!

If you say Johnson is even better, I'll take your word for it and am looking forward to tomorrow's afternoon in my music room.

What do you think of Michael Kristensen? What a Loge! I love the way the director Kasper Bech Holten is making all the performers move; no idle standing around, if not singing, their facial expressions were getting my attention.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: T-C on February 07, 2009, 12:15:05 AM
That's the word: What a Loge!

And the Mime in Siegfried is another example for an excellent singer-actor. His performance is really hilarious, especially when he is cooking the meal while Siegfried is forging his sword...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on February 07, 2009, 03:48:21 AM
Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on February 06, 2009, 07:59:42 PM
Something for all Georg Solti and Schenk/Levine worshippers to start tongue-wagging:


M you lost some weight! Glad ta have you back >:D!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on February 07, 2009, 03:49:41 AM
Quote from: T-C on February 06, 2009, 10:37:14 PM
In Das Rheingold, Johan Reuter sings Wotan and he is Ok, but the Wotan of the remaining operas - James Johnson - is the better singer and actor. He is one of the best singers in the Copenhagen Ring.



Just how good is this Copenhagen Ring?

Next to Solti? Bohm? Krauss? Karajan? Boulez?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on February 07, 2009, 06:26:38 AM
Schønwandt is right there in your line-up, just as is Haenchen from Amsterdam, Barenboim and Thielemann from Bayreuth.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on February 07, 2009, 06:46:31 AM
Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on February 07, 2009, 06:26:38 AM
Schønwandt is right there in your line-up, just as is Haenchen from Amsterdam, Barenboim and Thielemann from Bayreuth.


This must be good.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on February 07, 2009, 02:34:41 PM
 I screwed up! - joining the President and the Pope! I, the one who has been preaching open-mindedness, goofed by believing the reviews and opinions of others, critics and reviewers, and rejected this Ring des Nibelungen. It finally dawned on me to listen to my own admonishments, and be open-minded and to watch it and then make up my mind.

So far I have watched the DVD of Das Rheingold and have nothing but praise for the director's brilliant ideas, the singers superb singing and acting, and the musicians fabulous playing guided by this vibrant conductor, Michael Schønwandt. It's a film, not an opera! Multiple handheld cameras were used at every angle possible to show the lively action. Never a moment where the performers stand in the corner, doing nothing but waiting for the other person to finish his singing, no, their faces show their reaction to what was being sung.

To be continued!

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wilhelm Richard on February 15, 2009, 07:32:05 AM
This is too good...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTlvrIQ99y8

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on February 15, 2009, 07:48:30 AM
youtube is chuckfull of garbage, but this one has to be rated as the most stupid of them all.  >:D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Mandryka on February 15, 2009, 12:04:08 PM
Hi everyone.

Has anyone here read A sense of Ending by Phillip Kitcher and Richard Schacht?

I have recently finished it and I like it -- especially the discussion of love in The Ring. I'm kind of curious to know how well it has been received.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: greg on February 15, 2009, 05:51:53 PM
Quote from: Wilhelm Richard on February 15, 2009, 07:32:05 AM
This is too good...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTlvrIQ99y8


:D
inferior...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on February 16, 2009, 05:42:15 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 15, 2009, 12:04:08 PM
Hi everyone.

Has anyone here read A sense of Ending by Phillip Kitcher and Richard Schacht?

I have recently finished it and I like it -- especially the discussion of love in The Ring. I'm kind of curious to know how well it has been received.


That ws a very good book. From what I've read of reviews, it's been well received. I've read better books on the subject (Ernest Newman's The Wagner Operas is the definitive, especially on the Ring, and Bryan Magee's The Tristan Chord is excellently done from a philosophical perspective).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Mandryka on February 16, 2009, 07:27:23 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on February 16, 2009, 05:42:15 AM

That ws a very good book. From what I've read of reviews, it's been well received. I've read better books on the subject (Ernest Newman's The Wagner Operas is the definitive, especially on the Ring, and Bryan Magee's The Tristan Chord is excellently done from a philosophical perspective).

Sory mate, I think A Sense of ending goes way deeper than Newman, and McGee for that matter.

I am particularly interested their idea that The Ring is an attempt by Wagner to demonstrate the uselessness of love when confronted ny the real world challenges of the likes of Hagen and Gunter.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on February 16, 2009, 09:55:02 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 16, 2009, 07:27:23 AM
Sory mate, I think A Sense of ending goes way deeper than Newman, and McGee for that matter.

I am particularly interested their idea that The Ring is an attempt by Wagner to demonstrate the uselessness of love when confronted ny the real world challenges of the likes of Hagen and Gunter.


Ehhh...well, that's one opinion on what the opera Der Ring Des Nibelungen means.

Although it was a fun thought experiment, overall I don't think that your "Finding an Ending" had any idea of what it was talking about. The entirety of Gotterdammerung was written under the influence of Schoepenhauer, Wagner threw away any Feuerbach influence way before he'd started the last part of Siegfried. If you dispute that, read the letters of Wagner and also his wife Cosima during the writing of the aforementioned pieces.

Also, the fact that the writer of Finding an Ending dismisses Parsifal has to be one to be the most crippling mistake toward the author's argument (besides his obvious lack of biographical knowledge comcerning Wagner). Even from a strictly musical standpoint, Parsifal is just as strong a composition as any of the last four Wagner operas. Some people see it even as the crown jewel of Wagner's output.

I highly reccomend you read Wagner's Brown Book, as well as Cosima's diaries from around the time of the composition of the Ring, before you parade around "Finding an Ending".

And please, read the Magee and Newman before you place a book above them. Or at least set alongside the main arguments from each author's books so we can have a more informed discussion.

Please forgive if I sound a little too knowledgeable. I don't mean to be condescending. But as of this month I've been studying Wagner's works, in particular the Ring and Parsifal, for the better part of two years now. This includes the scores (at length), as well as biographical information on the works and composer.

I know what I'm talking about. I believe that you're capable of the same. don't be indignant.

Learn.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Mandryka on February 16, 2009, 11:20:38 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on February 16, 2009, 09:55:02 AM

Ehhh...well, that's one opinion on what the opera Der Ring Des Nibelungen means.

Although it was a fun thought experiment, overall I don't think that your "Finding an Ending" had any idea of what it was talking about. The entirety of Gotterdammerung was written under the influence of Schoepenhauer, Wagner threw away any Feuerbach influence way before he'd started the last part of Siegfried. If you dispute that, read the letters of Wagner and also his wife Cosima during the writing of the aforementioned pieces.

Also, the fact that the writer of Finding an Ending dismisses Parsifal has to be one to be the most crippling mistake toward the author's argument (besides his obvious lack of biographical knowledge comcerning Wagner). Even from a strictly musical standpoint, Parsifal is just as strong a composition as any of the last four Wagner operas. Some people see it even as the crown jewel of Wagner's output.

I highly reccomend you read Wagner's Brown Book, as well as Cosima's diaries from around the time of the composition of the Ring, before you parade around "Finding an Ending".

And please, read the Magee and Newman before you place a book above them. Or at least set alongside the main arguments from each author's books so we can have a more informed discussion.

Please forgive if I sound a little too knowledgeable. I don't mean to be condescending. But as of this month I've been studying Wagner's works, in particular the Ring and Parsifal, for the better part of two years now. This includes the scores (at length), as well as biographical information on the works and composer.

I know what I'm talking about. I believe that you're capable of the same. don't be indignant.

Learn.

Hey AndyD

Why do you think Brunhilde kills herself at the end of the Ring?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on February 16, 2009, 11:26:52 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 16, 2009, 11:20:38 AM
Hey AndyD

Why do you think Brunhilde kills herself at the end of the Ring?


That's a loaded question. There are countless interpretations, all are fascinating. That's what makes great Art, trying on all the possible answers. Just like Shakespeare's sonnets.

Paucis verbis, there is no one answer. Art never has just one, otherwise it would be all surface.

You do know that, I trust.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ChamberNut on February 16, 2009, 11:52:07 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 16, 2009, 11:20:38 AM
Hey AndyD

Why do you think Brunhilde kills herself at the end of the Ring?

Because it was Wotan's (ie. God's will)?  :-\  Just a thought?  It was to fulfill the destiny?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ChamberNut on February 16, 2009, 11:54:46 AM
I am now curious as to why the character "Mime" is seen as an "anti-semitic caricature"?  M. Owen Lee makes this comment about Mime, in Siegfried, being a "low point" and an embarrassment.  Why is Mime deemed to be looked at as a anti-semitic symbol?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on February 16, 2009, 12:04:51 PM
Quote from: KammerNuss on February 16, 2009, 11:54:46 AM
I am now curious as to why the character "Mime" is seen as an "anti-semitic caricature"?  M. Owen Lee makes this comment about Mime, in Siegfried, being a "low point" and an embarrassment.  Why is Mime deemed to be looked at as a anti-semitic symbol?


Lee tended to demonize Wagner (not that Wagner needed any help in that department, he was very much an officious anti-semite). I think pretty much any open minded person today can watch the portrayal of Mime and see that it's simply a portrayal of a miserable, misanthropic person. And there are plenty of those in all "races" aren't there.

Lee even wrote a book (correct me if I'm wrong please) with the title (paraphrased "Wagner: the Terrible Man"). That last pretty much says it all.

I feel about Wagner the way the great conductor Toscaninni felt about R. Strauss: to the composer Wagner, I tip my hat. To the man Wagner, I put it back on.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Mandryka on February 16, 2009, 01:12:44 PM
Quote from: KammerNuss on February 16, 2009, 11:52:07 AM
Because it was Wotan's (ie. God's will)?  :-\  Just a thought?  It was to fulfill the destiny?

But why should Wotan want Brunhilde to die?

I can see why he might think the world would be better if he were gone -- the events of The Ring have shown that he is a pretty useless god. But what's to be gained by getting rid of his daughter?

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ChamberNut on February 16, 2009, 04:35:19 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 16, 2009, 01:12:44 PM
But why should Wotan want Brunhilde to die?

I can see why he might think the world would be better if he were gone -- the events of The Ring have shown that he is a pretty useless god. But what's to be gained by getting rid of his daughter?



Since Brunnhilde betrayed Wotan (in the beginning, by trying to protect Siegmund and Sieglinde), he had to turn her into a mortal to appease the Gods for her going against his wishes.  I think this is correct?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on February 16, 2009, 07:41:07 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 16, 2009, 11:20:38 AM
Hey AndyD

Why do you think Brunhilde kills herself at the end of the Ring?

Does she?

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Mandryka on February 17, 2009, 04:21:17 AM
Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on February 16, 2009, 07:41:07 PM
Does she?



Are you serious? Do you think there's a reading where she survives this?

She has jumped on to the horse and with one bound leaps into the burning pyre. The flames immediately crackle and flare up high, so that the fire fills the whole space in front of the hall and seems to seize on this too. Terrified, the men and women press to the extreme foreground
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Mandryka on February 17, 2009, 04:33:31 AM
Quote from: KammerNuss on February 16, 2009, 04:35:19 PM
Since Brunnhilde betrayed Wotan (in the beginning, by trying to protect Siegmund and Sieglinde), he had to turn her into a mortal to appease the Gods for her going against his wishes.  I think this is correct?

I'm not sure about appeasing the gods.

All he says to erda when he explains the situation is:

She flouted the father of the storms,
when in his might he had mastered himself.
What the controller of combats
longed to do
but restrained himself
against his will,
all too confidently
the defiant girl -
Brünnhilde in the brunt of battle -
dared to accomplish for herself.
The father of conflicts
punished the maid:
in her eyes he pressed sleep:
on the fell she is fast asleep.
The consecrated one
will waken
only when a man woos her for his wife.


And when he explains himself to his daughter in Walkure he makes it clear that the punishment is his decision -- because she has renounced him by her defiance:

You have renounced me.
I must keep away from you,
and in company with you
I can never again meditate plans.
We are separated
and cannot work together any more.
While life breath last
the god must never meet you again.


and later

Girl, do not try
to alter my decision.
Await your lot
as it falls to you;
I cannot choose it for you;
And now I must go,
travel far away.
I have stayed here too long.
As you turned away
I must turn from you.
I may not know
what you wish for yourself:
only your punishment
I must see exacted.


Nothing about appeasment in any of this.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on February 22, 2009, 07:51:29 PM
Los Angeles New Ring

Take the time and read about it in ACD's blog entry, including hot off the press reviews:

http://www.soundsandfury.com/soundsandfury/2009/02/its-going-to-be-a-bumpy-night.html
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on February 22, 2009, 07:56:20 PM
One picture of the LA production:

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Häuschen on February 27, 2009, 07:59:33 AM
Just purchased my ticket for the March 8 performance and sooooooo looking forward to Der Ring in 2010.  This will be my first complete Ring and I'm seriously considering tickets to both complete performances if I can swing the finances.

Can anyone comment on this Erich Kleiber recording?

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/45/453483.JPG)

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=53035

Kleiber is one of my favorite conductors but I'm not familiar with the singers, nor the reputation of the Colon Theatre.  For $40 it's probably worth a try.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Häuschen on February 27, 2009, 08:03:58 AM
I meant to add that all this week I've been listening to the Clemens Krauss recording from Bayreuth in 1953.  Superb singing and sound quality, if a little echoey at times on the Das Rheingold discs.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on February 27, 2009, 10:23:42 AM
Quote from: Häuschen on February 27, 2009, 08:03:58 AM
I meant to add that all this week I've been listening to the Clemens Krauss recording from Bayreuth in 1953.  Superb singing and sound quality, if a little echoey at times on the Das Rheingold discs.


It's an excellent, mono performance.

The Kleiber is very good. I'd grab the Krauss over that particular Kleiber recording, however. Better singers mostly.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Mandryka on March 07, 2009, 10:41:27 AM
Does anyone know if Nilson, Hotter and Vickers ever sang in the Ring together - and if so, how can I get the record?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lilas Pastia on March 07, 2009, 07:33:49 PM
I don't think so. Hotter was already retired when Nilsson and Vickers started singing together in Bayreuth Ring productions. But I may be wrong. A Walküre maybe?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Mandryka on March 07, 2009, 10:20:00 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on March 07, 2009, 07:33:49 PM
I don't think so. Hotter was already retired when Nilsson and Vickers started singing together in Bayreuth Ring productions. But I may be wrong. A Walküre maybe?

That's interesting -- I didn;t realise Hotter retired so early.

I last say him about 10 years ago in a prom -- the sprecher in Gurre-lieder.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on March 08, 2009, 11:21:58 AM
There is a Vickers/Nilsson Walkure with George London, it dates from 1962. The LSO is conducted by Leinsdorf and its most recent incarnation was on Decca. It is excellent in may ways, probably one of Leinsdorf's best sets.

If there is a live set with your dream cast, I don't know about it. Hotter was born in 1909, so may have been in casts with the other two. In the 1060s he had started to direct Wagner productions. He retired in 1972 from the headline roles.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Mandryka on March 08, 2009, 12:16:58 PM
Quote from: knight on March 08, 2009, 11:21:58 AM
There is a Vickers/Nilsson Walkure with George London, it dates from 1962. The LSO is conducted by Leinsdorf and its most recent incarnation was on Decca. It is excellent in may ways, probably one of Leinsdorf's best sets.

If there is a live set with your dream cast, I don't know about it. Hotter was born in 1909, so may have been in casts with the other two. In the 1060s he had started to direct Wagner productions. He retired in 1972 from the headline roles.

Mike

I know the George London set and I'm afraid to say that he's my least favourire Wotan ever.

But thanks for trying!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lilas Pastia on March 08, 2009, 02:37:20 PM
Quote from: knight on March 08, 2009, 11:21:58 AM
There is a Vickers/Nilsson Walkure with George London, it dates from 1962. The LSO is conducted by Leinsdorf and its most recent incarnation was on Decca. It is excellent in may ways, probably one of Leinsdorf's best sets.

If there is a live set with your dream cast, I don't know about it. Hotter was born in 1909, so may have been in casts with the other two. In the 1060s he had started to direct Wagner productions. He retired in 1972 from the headline roles.

Mike

Vickers first sang with Nilsson in 1971 (Tristan und Isolde) . IIRC they partnered each other numerous times in Tristan during the seventies. Vickers did sing with Hotter (Parsifal to his Gurnemanz) in the early sixties. The trio did sing together once, but in Beethoven (Fidelio), not Wagner.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on March 09, 2009, 10:03:02 AM
Andre, I am not at home, so cannot look again at my box set. Did I quote the wrong date of the Leinsdorf Walkure recording?

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wendell_E on March 09, 2009, 11:07:10 AM
Quote from: knight on March 09, 2009, 10:03:02 AM
Andre, I am not at home, so cannot look again at my box set. Did I quote the wrong date of the Leinsdorf Walkure recording?

Mike

I don't know about the date of that recording, but Vickers and Nilsson did sing together before 1971.  The Met archives show their first performance together there was a Walküre on February 9, 1960.  Four days later, the did a Fidelio together.  Unfortunately, Hotter last sang at the Met in 1954 (repertory disagreements with Bing, IIRC), so there's no Nilsson/Vickers/Hotter broadcast from the Met, either. 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lilas Pastia on March 09, 2009, 04:49:14 PM
A 1960 Fidelio has survived (from La Scala, under Karajan :o - this is the one I referred to):
   (http://www.hbdirect.com/coverm/15/1028015.jpg)
But there is no recorded evidence of a 1960 Walküre (Nilsson-Vickers recordings had to wait until 1971). Unless there is a live pirate recording I'm not aware of. In any case, until the 50 year copyright date has elapsed, any Met performance is guarded by the local Fafner. Let's wait until next year, then!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wendell_E on March 10, 2009, 03:13:25 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on March 09, 2009, 04:49:14 PM
But there is no recorded evidence of a 1960 Walküre (Nilsson-Vickers recordings had to wait until 1971). Unless there is a live pirate recording I'm not aware of. In any case, until the 50 year copyright date has elapsed, any Met performance is guarded by the local Fafner. Let's wait until next year, then!

You can listen to the February 24, 1968 Met broadcast at http://www.rhapsody.com/richard-wagner/wagner-die-walkure-february-24-1968.  You have to be a rhapsody subscriber to hear the whole thing, but even if you're not, you can listen to up to 25 tracks per month for free (more than enough for, say, a complete Act I and the Todesverkundigung).  The cast also includes Thomas Stewart, Leonie Rysanek, Christa Ludwig, and Karl Ridderbusch.   Karajan had conducted the premiere, but had left by the time of the broadcast, so we get Berislav Klobučar instead.

The Met did broadcast both Fidelio and Die Walküre with Nilsson and Vickers in Feb. 1960, but so far that 1968 broadcast is the only one that's showed up on Sirius or Rhapsody.  Maybe one day.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on March 10, 2009, 02:57:32 PM
I am not sure whether the mystery is solved of my Leinsdorf recording. I am home now and can confirm the box shows 1961, re-release 2002, Decca. I will do a little research. I have a feeling it was licenced to RCA until recently.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on March 10, 2009, 03:04:11 PM
From the Gramophone archive; it confirms 1962 as the date of the recording.

Mike

WAGNER. DIE WALKURE. Jon Vickers (ten) Siegmund; Grê Brouwenstijn (sop) Sieglinde; Birgit Nilsson (sop) Briinnhilde; George London (bass-bar) Wotan; Rita Gorr (mez) Fricka; David Ward (bass) Hunding; Marie Collier (sop) Gerhilde; Judith Pierce (sop) Helmwige; Julia Malyon (sop) Ortlinde; Mar- greta Elkins (mez) Waltraute; Josephine Veasey (mez) Rossweisse; Noreen Berry (mez) Siegrune; Maureen Guy (mez) Grimgerde; Joan Edwards (contr) Schwertleite; London Symphony Orchestra / Erich Leinsdorf. Decca Grand Opera 0 (D 430 391-2DM3 (three discs, nas: 216 minutes: ADD). Notes, text and translation included. From RCA LDS6706 (9/62).

This performance, made during the period when Decca's Ring was in progress, has in consequence tended to be overlooked. Leinsdorf was an experienced Wagnerian, having taken over the Wagner repertory from Bodanzky at the Metropolitan Opera in the 1930s, restoring all the cuts made by his predecessor. He paces the work firmly and stamps his authority on the LSO of the day, but finds it hard to relax or to peer into the more metaphysical side of the score as would a Furtwängler or a Goodall. His reading is more to be equated with that of Levine today, having the same visceral excitement, as in the fight at the end of Act 2 and the departure of the Valkyries in Act 3. Leinsdorf also evinces an understanding of the larger paragraph; what I find missing is that extra, hard-to-describe inward quality which should inform Wotan's Narration and his relationship with his erring daughter; it is something instinctive that cannot be learnt. George London's Wotan doesn't help. For all the security and resplendence of his singing, so like that of James Morris today, it wants the verbal understanding and subtlety of phrase brought to the role by Hotter and Bailey. Indeed, even Nilsson—in the Todesverkiindigung and elsewhere—doesn't approach the insights and understanding she showed for Solti (Decca), and BOhm (Philips) some five or six years later. That said, her performance leaves many others standing in its strength of voice and intelligence of delivery. The Valkyries comprise many excellent British singers of the day.

Act 1 offers many rewards in the fervent, heroically sung Siegmund of Vickers, heard to greater advantage here than for Karajan in his complete Ring on DG, and in the imaginative, deeply felt Sieglinde of Brouwenstijn, who manages the storytelling of "Der Manner Sippe" as well as any Sieglinde on disc. It was also a pleasure to hear again the sonorous bass of David Ward, even if Hunding needs a more granite-like tone than he can provide (he was soon to become an appreciable Wotan). In Act 2, Rita Gorr is a powerful but unsubtle Fricka—and perhaps those epithets characterize the performance as a whole. The recording is over-resonant and not very atmospheric. A.B.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lilas Pastia on March 10, 2009, 03:23:56 PM
Quote from: Wendell_E on March 10, 2009, 03:13:25 AM
You can listen to the February 24, 1968 Met broadcast at http://www.rhapsody.com/richard-wagner/wagner-die-walkure-february-24-1968.  You have to be a rhapsody subscriber to hear the whole thing, but even if you're not, you can listen to up to 25 tracks per month for free (more than enough for, say, a complete Act I and the Todesverkundigung).  The cast also includes Thomas Stewart, Leonie Rysanek, Christa Ludwig, and Karl Ridderbusch.   Karajan had conducted the premiere, but had left by the time of the broadcast, so we get Berislav Klobučar instead.

The Met did broadcast both Fidelio and Die Walküre with Nilsson and Vickers in Feb. 1960, but so far that 1968 broadcast is the only one that's showed up on Sirius or Rhapsody.  Maybe one day.

Unfortunately I get this message:

U.S. Only. We're sorry. We have detected that you are outside of the United States. This service is currently only available to residents within the United States.


Booohooohooo!  :'(
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wanderer on March 11, 2009, 12:13:14 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on March 10, 2009, 03:23:56 PM
Unfortunately I get this message:

U.S. Only. We're sorry. We have detected that you are outside of the United States. This service is currently only available to residents within the United States.


This is ridiculous. Things like that shouldn't be an issue on the internet age.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wendell_E on March 11, 2009, 03:34:12 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on March 11, 2009, 12:13:14 AM
This is ridiculous. Things like that shouldn't be an issue on the internet age.

Yeah, I had a similar problem when the BBC had the English National Opera Carmen available for online viewing.  I actually was able to watch it once, right after they put it up, but just a couple of hours later, they'd restricted it.

I did use my 25 free tracks on Rhapsody yesterday to listen to as much of that Walküre as I could (through Wotan's "So nimm meinen Segen, Niblungen-Sohn!"), the rest will have to wait 'til next month.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wilhelm Richard on May 22, 2009, 05:45:15 AM
HAPPY BIRTHDAY HERR WAGNER!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Coopmv on May 22, 2009, 05:59:54 AM
Bernstein's Wagner - my first Wagner recording ...    ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 22, 2009, 06:15:56 AM
Quote from: knight on March 10, 2009, 03:04:11 PM
From the Gramophone archive; it confirms 1962 as the date of the recording.

Mike

WAGNER. DIE WALKURE. Jon Vickers (ten) Siegmund; Grê Brouwenstijn (sop) Sieglinde; Birgit Nilsson (sop) Briinnhilde; George London (bass-bar) Wotan; Rita Gorr (mez) Fricka; David Ward (bass) Hunding; Marie Collier (sop) Gerhilde; Judith Pierce (sop) Helmwige; Julia Malyon (sop) Ortlinde; Mar- greta Elkins (mez) Waltraute; Josephine Veasey (mez) Rossweisse; Noreen Berry (mez) Siegrune; Maureen Guy (mez) Grimgerde; Joan Edwards (contr) Schwertleite; London Symphony Orchestra / Erich Leinsdorf. Decca Grand Opera 0 (D 430 391-2DM3 (three discs, nas: 216 minutes: ADD). Notes, text and translation included. From RCA LDS6706 (9/62).

This performance, made during the period when Decca's Ring was in progress, has in consequence tended to be overlooked. Leinsdorf was an experienced Wagnerian, having taken over the Wagner repertory from Bodanzky at the Metropolitan Opera in the 1930s, restoring all the cuts made by his predecessor. He paces the work firmly and stamps his authority on the LSO of the day, but finds it hard to relax or to peer into the more metaphysical side of the score as would a Furtwängler or a Goodall. His reading is more to be equated with that of Levine today, having the same visceral excitement, as in the fight at the end of Act 2 and the departure of the Valkyries in Act 3. Leinsdorf also evinces an understanding of the larger paragraph; what I find missing is that extra, hard-to-describe inward quality which should inform Wotan's Narration and his relationship with his erring daughter; it is something instinctive that cannot be learnt. George London's Wotan doesn't help. For all the security and resplendence of his singing, so like that of James Morris today, it wants the verbal understanding and subtlety of phrase brought to the role by Hotter and Bailey. Indeed, even Nilsson—in the Todesverkiindigung and elsewhere—doesn't approach the insights and understanding she showed for Solti (Decca), and BOhm (Philips) some five or six years later. That said, her performance leaves many others standing in its strength of voice and intelligence of delivery. The Valkyries comprise many excellent British singers of the day.

Act 1 offers many rewards in the fervent, heroically sung Siegmund of Vickers, heard to greater advantage here than for Karajan in his complete Ring on DG, and in the imaginative, deeply felt Sieglinde of Brouwenstijn, who manages the storytelling of "Der Manner Sippe" as well as any Sieglinde on disc. It was also a pleasure to hear again the sonorous bass of David Ward, even if Hunding needs a more granite-like tone than he can provide (he was soon to become an appreciable Wotan). In Act 2, Rita Gorr is a powerful but unsubtle Fricka—and perhaps those epithets characterize the performance as a whole. The recording is over-resonant and not very atmospheric. A.B.

Some good points in that review, but you can smell the British bias a mile away. The reviewer employs the often-used tactic of throwing a few truths in there hoping that people will take everything he writes as gospel. For example this:

He paces the work firmly and stamps his authority on the LSO of the day, but finds it hard to relax or to peer into the more metaphysical side of the score as would a Furtwängler or a Goodall.

Furtwangler yes, Goodall hell no, unless by metaphysical you take it to mean 30% longer than everyone else, tolerant of bad orchestral playing, and the same stodgy tempo throughout.

Or this:

For all the security and resplendence of his singing, so like that of James Morris today, it wants the verbal understanding and subtlety of phrase brought to the role by Hotter and Bailey.

Again, Hotter yes, Baily not even close.

I think the Leinsdorf is an okay recording. Personally if you want Vickers/Brouwenstijn I would go with Karajan. It is completely false that somehow Vickers and Brouwenstijn's performance is somehow superior in the Leinsdorf set. Vickers sings this role better than anyone else and on either set he is on top form. Brouwenstijn is not my favorite Sieglinde (for that you go with a young Regine Resnick on the Krauss set) but she is pretty decent on either set as well. I go with Karajan for the discipline and polish of the orchestral playing.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on May 22, 2009, 06:22:17 AM
Quote from: Wilhelm Richard on May 22, 2009, 05:45:15 AM
HAPPY BIRTHDAY HERR WAGNER!


  HAPPY BIRTHDAY HERR WAGNER INDEED! Oh yes, Herr Wagner  0:) born May 22, 1813 would over the course of his very turbulent, tumultous and highly controversial life not only put Germany on the opera map but have it dominate over every other nation!!  What I love most about this great man is that he risked everything for his artwork, he made no compromises of any kind whatsoever to anyone!  He taught me that life is for those who DARE! It is not for those who play it safe!

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Tsaraslondon on May 22, 2009, 07:09:55 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 22, 2009, 06:15:56 AM
Vickers sings this role better than anyone else and on either set he is on top form. Brouwenstijn is not my favorite Sieglinde (for that you go with a young Regine Resnick on the Krauss set) but she is pretty decent on either set as well. I go with Karajan for the discipline and polish of the orchestral playing.



Brouwenstijn isn't the Sieglinde on the Karajan set. It's Janowitz - and mighty fine she is too.

And enough of this British bias rubbish. Gramophone is a British publication so there is bound to be a bias in that direction. American magazines tend to have a bias towards American singers and conductors. French magazines have a different bias altogether - you'd think nobody does early and baroque better than the French. And so on and so forth. It's a fact of life. Accept it.





Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 22, 2009, 07:43:27 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on May 22, 2009, 06:22:17 AM


HAPPY BIRTHDAY HERR WAGNER INDEED! Oh yes, Herr Wagner  0:) born May 22, 1813 would over the course of his very turbulent, tumultous and highly controversial life not only put Germany on the opera map but have it dominate over every other nation!!  What I love most about this great man is that he risked everything for his artwork, he made no compromises of any kind whatsoever to anyone!  He taught me that life is for those who DARE! It is not for those who play it safe!

THIRDED!

Wagner has been my great example, too. Persevere, and you will be rewarded.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 22, 2009, 07:47:08 AM
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on May 22, 2009, 07:09:55 AM
Brouwenstijn isn't the Sieglinde on the Karajan set. It's Janowitz - and mighty fine she is too.

Oh yeah, sorry. Absolutely, Janowitz is a wonderful Sieglinde.

I was listening to the Keilberth this morning so Brouwenstijn as Sieglinde sort of got stuck in my mind.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on May 22, 2009, 12:23:46 PM
I don't think I was trying to put one performance up against the other. The main issue was settling a question with Andre about the date of the recording. But if it comes to it, I think Karajan mauls the vital Wintersturme moment with Vickers and the relatively penny plain Leinsdorf scores there. I never have been able to enjoy Crespin, Big Birgit is much to be preferred. So although there is a lot I like about the Karajan, Janowitz included, I will not be throwing the Leinsdorf out.

BTW, I have no great fondness for Leinsdorf, though do enjoy his Butterfly with Leontine Price; but I was in a Mahler 8th when he was conducting; out of his depth, it was often at near break-down, but by then he was 14 years older.

Ditto the British bias.....at whose expense? I read US critics who rave about Morris and his singing of Wotan; if there is a duller exponent, point him out to me.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: greg on May 22, 2009, 06:11:48 PM
I have a random question, and I might have asked it before. Has all of Wagner's music been recorded? I notice that he's written A LOT besides his operas, and I've heard about almost none of it.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wendell_E on May 23, 2009, 03:07:06 AM
QuoteHas all of Wagner's music been recorded? I notice that he's written A LOT besides his operas, and I've heard about almost none of it.

The record companies may be trying to protect his reputation.

I celebrated yesterday with Futwängler's EMI recording of Tristan und Isolde.  Wonderful recording, except for the awful British orchestra, chorus, and producer.  I'm just kidding about the British, of course.  ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 06:24:24 AM
This is an excellent Parsifal.  I bought this set about 2 years ago ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Y6CZETR3L._SL500_AA211_.jpg)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 06:35:34 AM
Quote from: Wendell_E on May 23, 2009, 03:07:06 AM
The record companies may be trying to protect his reputation.

I celebrated yesterday with Futwängler's EMI recording of Tristan und Isolde.  Wonderful recording, except for the awful British orchestra, chorus, and producer.  I'm just kidding about the British, of course.  ;D

Sir Colin directed an excellent performance of this Tannhauser at Bayreuth in the mid 70's with Gwyneth Jones, etc.  I have this DVD.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/412NRNYdexL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Coopmv on May 24, 2009, 11:49:05 AM
Here are the sets from one of the three Ring Cycles (1 cycle on CD and 2 cycles on LP) I have, all by Karajan ...


Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Coopmv on May 24, 2009, 11:51:16 AM
Two more to go ...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: greg on May 24, 2009, 09:00:41 PM
Quote from: Wendell_E on May 23, 2009, 03:07:06 AM
The record companies may be trying to protect his reputation.
Well, that's a really interesting answer.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on May 26, 2009, 02:15:47 PM
Quote from: Bahamut on May 22, 2009, 06:11:48 PM
I have a random question, and I might have asked it before. Has all of Wagner's music been recorded? I notice that he's written A LOT besides his operas, and I've heard about almost none of it.

Wagner struggled (and to a certain extent failed) to make ends meet by writing piano transcriptions for what IMHO are "second rate" operas, those of Jacques Halevy for example.  He hated this work, he considered it slave work but necessary to earn much needed money. I see no reason to record these compositions nor to have them in my collection. These piano transcriptions are not representative of Wagner's genius. I do not have any interest in hearing them, much less the operas that they came from.  


 marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: greg on May 26, 2009, 02:17:48 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on May 26, 2009, 02:15:47 PM
Wagner struggled (and to a certain extent failed) to make ends meet by writing piano transcriptions for what IMHO are "second rate" operas, those of Jacques Halevy for example.  He hated this work, he considered it slave work but necessary to earn much needed money. I see no reason to record these compositions nor to have them in my collection. These piano transcriptions are not representative of Wagner's genius nor do I have any interest in hearing them, much less the operas that they came from.   


  marvin
Ah, well, that's enlightening!  :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Valentino on May 30, 2009, 02:50:22 AM
Is this the Wagner trhead? May I enter? ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Coopmv on May 30, 2009, 03:13:14 AM
Quote from: Valentino on May 30, 2009, 02:50:22 AM
Is this the Wagner trhead? May I enter? ;D

Yes, but I have not really noticed any serious discussion of his operas yet ...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Valentino on May 30, 2009, 04:23:30 AM
I can see (touching is not allowed) Flagstad's Brünnhilde costume from the Met almost everyday if I want to. When I look at it I giggle...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Coopmv on May 30, 2009, 04:37:27 AM
Quote from: Valentino on May 30, 2009, 04:23:30 AM
I can see (touching is not allowed) Flagstad's Brünnhilde costume from the Met almost everyday if I want to. When I look at it I giggle...

Yeah, Kirsten Flagstad, the great Norwegian opera soprano.  Unfortunately, all her recordings are probably monaural ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirsten_Flagstad

check it out (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAo_fTiZ2hY)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Coopmv on May 30, 2009, 04:41:05 AM
Quote from: Valentino on May 30, 2009, 04:23:30 AM
I can see (touching is not allowed) Flagstad's Brünnhilde costume from the Met almost everyday if I want to. When I look at it I giggle...

So you live in Hamar, Norway.  Mystery solved ...    ;D

Here is an excerpt from the link I posted previously ...

The Kirsten Flagstad Museum in Hamar, Norway, contains a private collection of opera artifacts. Her costumes draw special attention, and include several examples on loan from the Metropolitan Opera Archives. Her portrait appears on the Norwegian 100 kroner bill.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Coopmv on May 30, 2009, 04:48:17 AM
Here is one of my treasured LP-sets, an EMI recording.  Furtwangler and Flagstad, what a combo ...

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on June 16, 2009, 01:31:22 PM


  Wagner fans, friends and colleagues I post here with distressing news......most distressing news.  A few weeks ago I was watching Tristan und Isolde (Levine MET) on SkyArts 2 here in London and in between Acts they interviewed the casting director at the MET.  This casting director, a lady, claimed that the role of Tristan is very difficult to cast since there are only 11 men...that's right only 11 men in the world today that can sing that role.  My God only 11....where is the next generation of Wagnerian singers?? What does this say of the role of Wotan and Siegfried and Parsifal?  On another thread here at GMG it was pointed out that performances of Die Meistersinger are few and far between. Could live performances of Wagner's operas become extinct simply due to casting problems?  Only 11 Tristans, only 11 men can fulfill the challenges of that role  :o :o :o......... :'( :'( :'( oh where are you Wolfgang Windgassen....I miss Hans Hotter, those were the days my dear Wagnerians, those were the days  :'( :'(!

  marvin 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on June 16, 2009, 02:04:42 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 06:24:24 AM
This is an excellent Parsifal.  I bought this set about 2 years ago ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Y6CZETR3L._SL500_AA211_.jpg)


It is often spectacularly good. Bernd Weikl, whom was a tiny bit dragging in the otherwise really good Bayreuth dvd, comes through with flying colors here. A terrific set that I most highly reccomend, along with all the Knap recordings.

Quote from: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 06:35:34 AM
 

Sir Colin directed an excellent performance of this Tannhauser at Bayreuth in the mid 70's with Gwyneth Jones, etc.  I have this DVD.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/412NRNYdexL._SS500_.jpg)

I have to get this. It's been too long already.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on June 16, 2009, 02:07:44 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 24, 2009, 11:51:16 AM
Two more to go ...



You have alot to look forward to, especially the Karajan Rheingold. I wasn't wild about his Gotterdammerung or Siegfried, but that might be because I prefer a more visceral, booming, "Heavy Metal Wagner". The Karajan Walkure is the cream of the crop, mostly for its unbeatable first act. Perfect example of applied dynamics.

Just my opinion.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on June 16, 2009, 02:08:16 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 30, 2009, 04:48:17 AM
Here is one of my treasured LP-sets, an EMI recording.  Furtwangler and Flagstad, what a combo ...





Tremendous.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wilhelm Richard on June 16, 2009, 02:13:01 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 16, 2009, 01:31:22 PM

 Wagner fans, friends and colleagues I post here with distressing news......most distressing news.  A few weeks ago I was watching Tristan und Isolde (Levine MET) on SkyArts 2 here in London and in between Acts they interviewed the casting director at the MET.  This casting director, a lady, claimed that the role of Tristan is very difficult to cast since there are only 11 men...that's right only 11 men in the world today that can sing that role.  My God only 11....where is the next generation of Wagnerian singers?? What does this say of the role of Wotan and Siegfried and Parsifal?  On another thread here at GMG it was pointed out that performances of Die Meistersinger are few and far between. Could live performances of Wagner's operas become extinct simply due to casting problems?  Only 11 Tristans, only 11 men can fulfill the challenges of that role  :o :o :o......... :'( :'( :'( oh where are you Wolfgang Windgassen....I miss Hans Hotter, those were the days my dear Wagnerians, those were the days  :'( :'(!

 marvin  

Distressing times indeed.  But it always seems as though some more show up...folks have been fearing the extinction of the heldentenor since Melchior.
How many of today's conductors can meet the challenges of Tristan (or any other mature Wagner opera's) score?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on June 16, 2009, 02:14:39 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 16, 2009, 01:31:22 PM

  Wagner fans, friends and colleagues I post here with distressing news......most distressing news.  A few weeks ago I was watching Tristan und Isolde (Levine MET) on SkyArts 2 here in London and in between Acts they interviewed the casting director at the MET.  This casting director, a lady, claimed that the role of Tristan is very difficult to cast since there are only 11 men...that's right only 11 men in the world today that can sing that role.  My God only 11....where is the next generation of Wagnerian singers?? What does this say of the role of Wotan and Siegfried and Parsifal?  On another thread here at GMG it was pointed out that performances of Die Meistersinger are few and far between. Could live performances of Wagner's operas become extinct simply due to casting problems?  Only 11 Tristans, only 11 men can fulfill the challenges of that role  :o :o :o......... :'( :'( :'( oh where are you Wolfgang Windgassen....I miss Hans Hotter, those were the days my dear Wagnerians, those were the days  :'( :'(!

  marvin 



This news doesn't surprise me. Wagner is considered someone to have been "progressed from" by most young people today. Younger folks seem to be convinced that just because something is from "today" it automatically trumps what came from "the day". Today I see Tupac Shakur being labelled a great composer on several popular forums..right up there with Mozart, Beethoven, and Wagner.

Until more people are educated about Our Music, and learn how to listen with their ears and not eyes, the state of modern opera as a rule will remain in decline.

Again, this is all my opinion. I'm just devastatingly grateful that we have the recordings available that we do.

By the way:


Quote from: Coopmv on May 30, 2009, 03:13:14 AM
 

Yes, but I have not really noticed any serious discussion of his operas yet ...


What would you like to talk about?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ChamberNut on June 16, 2009, 02:55:06 PM
Quote from: AndyD. on June 16, 2009, 02:07:44 PM
because I prefer a more visceral, booming, "Heavy Metal Wagner".


Oh yeah!  That's the sound of Solti and WP!  8)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ChamberNut on June 16, 2009, 02:56:46 PM
Quote from: AndyD. on June 16, 2009, 02:14:39 PM
Today I see Tupac Shakur being labelled a great composer on several popular forums..right up there with Mozart, Beethoven, and Wagner.

Ohhhh Andy.  PLEASE tell me you are joking.  :(
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on June 16, 2009, 03:12:29 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on June 16, 2009, 02:56:46 PM
Ohhhh Andy.  PLEASE tell me you are joking.  :(



I really love your avatar, Ray.

Oh yeah, on two of the Amazon forums that subject came up. Notorious BIG and Tupac are asserted consistently as great composers. I guess it's hard for me to blame them, when I was alot younger I just assumed that the music of today was "it" from a progressive level. It was only when I started studying music that I found out differently.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on June 16, 2009, 03:45:24 PM
Quote from: Wilhelm Richard on June 16, 2009, 02:13:01 PM
Distressing times indeed.  But it always seems as though some more show up...folks have been fearing the extinction of the heldentenor since Melchior.
How many of today's conductors can meet the challenges of Tristan (or any other mature Wagner opera's) score?

Maybe this should be called the "chicken little" thread.  There are more conductors and orchestras that can perform Tristan than there have ever been.  I am certain there are more tenors who can perform the role.  The thing we seem to have in particular abundance is people clutching their old records claiming that nothing is as good as it was in the good old days.

Quote from: AndyD. on June 16, 2009, 03:12:29 PMOh yeah, on two of the Amazon forums that subject came up. Notorious BIG and Tupac are asserted consistently as great composers. I guess it's hard for me to blame them, when I was alot younger I just assumed that the music of today was "it" from a progressive level. It was only when I started studying music that I found out differently.

Now Amazon forums are the annals of good taste?  Do you have statistics on many fools thought Chuck Berry and Elvis Presley were better composers than Shostakovich and Hindemith?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on June 16, 2009, 03:50:36 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on June 16, 2009, 03:45:24 PM


Now Amazon forums are the annals of good taste?  Do you have statistics on many fools thought Chuck Berry and Elvis Presley were better composers than Shostakovich and Hindemith?



I never asserted that Amazon was the quintessence of good taste.

I also don't tend to judge people as fools who have different opinions from mine. Especially when it comes to musical opinion.

But, to each his or her own.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wilhelm Richard on June 16, 2009, 04:52:05 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on June 16, 2009, 03:45:24 PM
Maybe this should be called the "chicken little" thread.  There are more conductors and orchestras that can perform Tristan than there have ever been.  

Do you really think so?  Because I would love for it to be demonstrated that this is in fact the case.  It would certainly make my life much happier. 
As far as I know, orchestras exist which are capable, of course, conductors, not so much.  I am not just talking about performing...I am talking about performing effectively.

Though I am not sure if the sort of Standards in Wagner Performance a Puccini fan has can be taken very seriously.*
;)

QuoteThe thing we seem to have in particular abundance is people clutching their old records claiming that nothing is as good as it was in the good old days.

Maybe they were...why don't you have a photograph of a modern Scarpia as your avatar?  :)










*Sarcasm



Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Valentino on June 17, 2009, 04:34:03 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on June 16, 2009, 02:07:44 PM
You have alot to look forward to, especially the Karajan Rheingold.
Damn right you were. The Karajan Rheingold hits home all right.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Valentino on June 17, 2009, 05:49:39 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/classical/thering/synopsis100.shtml
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on June 17, 2009, 02:22:30 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on June 16, 2009, 03:45:24 PM
Maybe this should be called the "chicken little" thread.  There are more conductors and orchestras that can perform Tristan than there have ever been.  I am certain there are more tenors who can perform the role.  The thing we seem to have in particular abundance is people clutching their old records claiming that nothing is as good as it was in the good old days.



 Scarpia the orchestras and conductors may well be there! but this criticism has come from the CASTING DIRECTOR at the MET  :o, I submit to you that there may be a lot of orchestras that can play the score of  Tristan und Isolde but the difficulty lies in the vocals as well. I am not sure that many tenors can make the grade! Tristan carries the majority of Act 3, his monologue is long, the agony palpable....and only 11 men in the world today are up to that challenge.....I truly believe that the "sky is falling" ;)! Perhaps Wagner set the bar far too high here??

 marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on June 17, 2009, 02:39:43 PM
Quote from: AndyD. on June 16, 2009, 02:14:39 PM


This news doesn't surprise me. Wagner is considered someone to have been "progressed from" by most young people today. Younger folks seem to be convinced that just because something is from "today" it automatically trumps what came from "the day". Today I see Tupac Shakur being labelled a great composer on several popular forums..right up there with Mozart, Beethoven, and Wagner.



  That is really sad and unfortunate Andy.  Maybe Wagner's operas are not accessible to the first time listener but there is much to admire and appreciate in all of the mature operas.  Oh well it is their loss.....

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ChamberNut on June 17, 2009, 02:42:00 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 17, 2009, 02:39:43 PM
 Oh well it is their loss.....

  marvin

Well said Marvin.  Let them have their 'Tupac'.  We have WAGNER!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Valentino on June 17, 2009, 02:52:09 PM
Based on my own experience I dare say that all is not lost. I was almost 44 before I found the key. But I must admit that I had a lookout for it for quite a while.

(http://www.artpassions.net/galleries/rackham/ring/ring22.jpg)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on June 17, 2009, 03:10:13 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 17, 2009, 02:22:30 PM
 Scarpia the orchestras and conductors may well be there! but this criticism has come from the CASTING DIRECTOR at the MET  :o, I submit to you that there may be a lot of orchestras that can play the score of  Tristan und Isolde but the difficulty lies in the vocals as well. I am not sure that many tenors can make the grade! Tristan carries the majority of Act 3, his monologue is long, the agony palpable....and only 11 men in the world today are up to that challenge.....I truly believe that the "sky is falling" ;)! Perhaps Wagner set the bar far too high here??

Maybe there are 11 that can be engaged at the Met, a big hall, a big orchestra and arguably the best opera house in the world with the pickiest audience.  That doesn't mean there aren't others who can sing the role if expectations are out of the stratosphere.  I am still somewhat skeptical that in the "good old days" there were many more who could do the job. 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on June 17, 2009, 03:14:13 PM
When I finally broke myself of my stupid, "everything has to resolve neatly" mindset toward music, and learned how to understand Wagner's language, my life itself was overall improved. Time and again. Wagner's music is truly the Art that keeps on giving. There's always something to be had, discovered, internalised from his music.

I firmly believe (through personal experience) that the archetypes that lie behind the characters and situations in the great Wagner operas help us to learn about ourselves, as well as the world around us.

For me, only Beethoven's late string quartets (and probably that standby, the trusty 9th), have continually, consistently paid off as much as Wagner's operas. They are examples of art that actually made my life one heck of a lot better. They can be like love itself.

Wagner, to paraphrase Nietzsche, is one of the great great benefactors of my life.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 17, 2009, 05:28:45 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on June 17, 2009, 03:10:13 PM
Maybe there are 11 that can be engaged at the Met, a big hall, a big orchestra and arguably the best opera house in the world with the pickiest audience.  That doesn't mean there aren't others who can sing the role if expectations are out of the stratosphere.  I am still somewhat skeptical that in the "good old days" there were many more who could do the job.  

I'm actually quite certain that 'the good old days' didn't boast more Tristans than now. If that had been the case, we'd have them on record. Especially since the Bayreuth Festival was such a powerful magnet after the War (it reopened in 1951). In an interview with three Isoldes (and Brünnhildes) on the Bavarian Radio and TV in the early 2000s, Martha Mödl, Astrid Varnay and Birgit Nilsson, all three mentioned how selective the Bayreuth management was in hiring singers. "Only the best were allowed to sing" - "now it's a workshop of course" (that's Mödl and Nilsson speaking IIRC). And yet, how many Tristans have the Bayreuth productions fielded since 1951? Vinay (1952-53), Windgassen (1957-1970, Helge Brilioth, René Kollo and Jerusalem in the seventies-eighties. All three estimable singers that could have sung Siegmund but had no business attempting to fill in Tristan's shoes. And a few nobodies that I'ver never come across before. I mean who was Spas Wenkoff?  ??? Well, he was deemed good enough to sing 5 Tristans between 1976 and 1985. Nilsson was right. Much of the casting at Bayreuth has been that of a workshop since the Windgassen days. If there are still 11 Tristans around today, that's not bad at all !
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: eyeresist on June 17, 2009, 07:25:57 PM
Quote from: Valentino on June 17, 2009, 02:52:09 PM
(http://www.artpassions.net/galleries/rackham/ring/ring22.jpg)
That's not Wagner, that's Gershwin: Can't help loving that moose of mine.

Statistically, I don't understand why there should be fewer capable Wagner singers now. Surely there are more singing students in conservatories than ever before. So, unless the human race has undergone some sort of genetic decline, how could we have more singers but fewer heldentenors?

Maybe singers need to start smoking and drinking again? ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on June 17, 2009, 08:20:35 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on June 17, 2009, 07:25:57 PM
Maybe singers need to start smoking and drinking again? ;)

Well, you may be onto something there. I once read a passage from either Varnay or Mödl (forget which) in a book on singing and the one criticism she (one of the she's) had with female singers today is they didn't have enough meat on their bones to belt out the chest music. I guess thinness and power don't go together so perhaps (just perhaps) it's the age we live in after all that's contributing to the "decline".
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brünnhilde ewig on June 17, 2009, 08:51:53 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on June 16, 2009, 03:45:24 PM
 The thing we seem to have in particular abundance is people clutching their old records claiming that nothing is as good as it was in the good old days.


That has been my line for years! Those dear people are in abundance on all opera fora; they won't believe you nor me. An example is this awesome Tristan und Isolde at the Scala, Milano, Barenboim conducting and working spendidly with the director Patrice Chéreau. In my collection it is at the top of the list of T&I because the connection between Ian Storey, Tristan, and Waltraud Meier, Isolde. Those two are not only great singers, they are interacting with each other. Watching those old productions, all I see are singers doing their thing: Singing; they barely look at each other. To hell with acting. And Storey does not weaken in the third act, he is as strong as in the beginning.

But of course people have to see this DVD to believe me - and you! - that there are contemporary tenors as good, if not better than the past idols.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on June 17, 2009, 09:15:47 PM
Quote from: Brünnhilde ewig on June 17, 2009, 08:51:53 PM
That has been my line for years!

Despite my quip above about 'thin singers' I'm absolutely on board with this quote. I've lost count of the 'golden age' and 'silver age' recording's I've had over the years but nothing to my ears outright K-O's anything from today. Yes, the singing might be "different", and might be more to someone's liking than something contemporary, but it's certainly not the last word in quality.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on June 17, 2009, 10:04:54 PM
As Scarpia says, there is a difference between the demands of the Met and who can actually sing the part for other houses. 11 does not sound all that bad. I wonder how many productions there are in any year? Though I guess if there were 100 such tenors, there would be more productions. My guess is that there may be more houses worldwide now with the capability to mount T&I, as against 60 years ago.

However, I have read several times over the years that we have fewer tenors than we used to. Seemingly it is the fault of pollution. This has lowered men's voices. (Why not women's?) Certainly, there is any number of superb baritones around.

One article I read instanced countries that once produced world class tenors, but now don't; Nordic countries were specified, where there used to be next to no pollution, but now supposedly, enough to eradicate tenors. I have no idea whether there is really anything in the idea. But we all know there used to be a deal of Italian tenors around, to the extent they were caricatured. How many can we name today or over the last 20 years, apart from Pavarotti?

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on June 17, 2009, 10:11:06 PM
In my view, we really haven't had a perfect Wagnerian Heldentenor since Melchior. We have, however, had some excellent tenors making a gallant effort to fill the void. I refer, specifically, to James King, Jon Vickers, and Jess Thomas. We have had other great tenors, too, like Windgassen, Ramón Vinay, and Sándor Kónya. More modern singers like Siegfried Jerusalem and Ben Heppner haven't been terrible, but I'd hesitate before including them in the first rank. At the same time, however, I think we really should consider what this means. How many perfect exponents have there been of Figaro, Radames, Calaf, or Rigoletto? When you think about it, it isn't all that extraordinary to say that Melchior was the last (only?) perfect Heldentenor.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Valentino on June 17, 2009, 11:22:05 PM
On which recordings can Melchior be heard?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on June 17, 2009, 11:27:26 PM


http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/qid=1245309997/ref=a9_sc_1?ie=UTF8&search-alias=classical&field-keywords=melchior
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Valentino on June 17, 2009, 11:47:28 PM
Thanks. I have a lot of listening to do.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on June 18, 2009, 12:12:43 AM
Looking through that list cost me some money thank you! A little bit anyway. I ordered the Naxos duets disc with Flagstad. I have his Tristan live and a disc of arias, but I succumbed to yet more.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Drasko on June 18, 2009, 03:48:28 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 16, 2009, 01:31:22 PM

This casting director, a lady, claimed that the role of Tristan is very difficult to cast since there are only 11 men...that's right only 11 men in the world today that can sing that role.  My God only 11....

And that is not enough? Don't think I can count 11 Otellos in recorded history.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on June 18, 2009, 04:09:30 AM
Vickers, Domingo, Pavarotti, Del Monaco, Vinay, Cossutta, Craig, Martinelli, Dermota, McCracken....now I am stuck. Cura sings it and so did Melchior. But it is not all that easy to come up with a dozen even within the last 30 years.

Mike

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on June 18, 2009, 05:20:48 AM
Quote from: Valentino on June 17, 2009, 11:22:05 PM
On which recordings can Melchior be heard?

I am generally of the opinion that the best places to hear Melchior are on the justly famous 1935 Walküre act 1 from Vienna, led by Bruno Walter, and the potted HMV Siegfried, led by various conductors. Both were (are?) available on Naxos' "Great Opera Recordings" in fine transfers by Mark Obert-Thorn and Ward Marston, respectively. I'll put it like this: while you'll want to hear more, you'll more than get your range on Melchior with those sets.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on June 18, 2009, 05:32:24 AM
Quote from: PSmith08 on June 18, 2009, 05:20:48 AM
I am generally of the opinion that the best places to hear Melchior are on the justly famous 1935 Walküre act 1 from Vienna, led by Bruno Walter, and the potted HMV Siegfried, led by various conductors. Both were (are?) available on Naxos' "Great Opera Recordings" in fine transfers by Mark Obert-Thorn and Ward Marston, respectively. I'll put it like this: while you'll want to hear more, you'll more than get your range on Melchior with those sets.

After reading your excellent blog, I have to check out Melchior.

Off topic, but pretty cool reading about Nefertiti as well, and I'm so happy you mentioned Keith Jarrett. I hadn't thought of him in years. Great stuff!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Drasko on June 18, 2009, 06:40:12 AM
Quote from: knight on June 18, 2009, 04:09:30 AM
Vickers, Domingo, Pavarotti, Del Monaco, Vinay, Cossutta, Craig, Martinelli, Dermota, McCracken....now I am stuck. Cura sings it and so did Melchior. But it is not all that easy to come up with a dozen even within the last 30 years.

You got further than me, I had to google who is Craig, and are you sure Dermota sung Otello? I'm only aware of Cassio under Furtwangler. I'm not sure he had the voice for Otello (he did sing very beautiful, if generously miked, Das Lied von der Erde under Klemperer though). Drop Martinelli and the rest is I think complete post WWII Otelldom. Maybe Kaufmann would make nice Otello in some years.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on June 18, 2009, 07:18:29 AM


  Alright alright all of you have made your point and proved me "somewhat" wrong....that said I can't remember the last time Tristan und Isolde played in London  :-\ :-\......

    marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on June 18, 2009, 07:58:59 AM
Quote from: Drasko on June 18, 2009, 06:40:12 AM
You got further than me, I had to google who is Craig, and are you sure Dermota sung Otello? I'm only aware of Cassio under Furtwangler. I'm not sure he had the voice for Otello (he did sing very beautiful, if generously miked, Das Lied von der Erde under Klemperer though). Drop Martinelli and the rest is I think complete post WWII Otelldom. Maybe Kaufmann would make nice Otello in some years.



You may well be right there Drasko. I thought I had read of him doing it in German, but I may well be wrong, as I more associate him with Mozart, which is at the opposite end of the spectrum.

As to Melchior...yes, that Act1 Walkure might in fact be the most vital of his discs if you only bought one. I had forgotten about it.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wilhelm Richard on June 18, 2009, 10:05:43 AM
My kind of stimulus check...

Quote(AP) — BERLIN - Germany's government has pledged ?500,000 ($700,000) to renovate the Wahnfried villa that houses the archive of legendary German composer Richard Wagner.

The government said Thursday the money to renovate Wagner's former house in the southern city of Bayreuth would come from an economic stimulus package that earmarks funds for improving infrastructure.

Museum head Sven Friedrich said the renovation would include a new display documenting the composer's life and working environment. He said an exhibit on the Wagner family's role during the Nazi-era will also be added.

http://www.nj.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/base/entertainment-3/1245344175229900.xml&storylist=entertainment
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Coopmv on June 18, 2009, 05:52:05 PM
Quote from: Wilhelm Richard on June 18, 2009, 10:05:43 AM
My kind of stimulus check...

http://www.nj.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/base/entertainment-3/1245344175229900.xml&storylist=entertainment

shovel and jackhammer-ready?     ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Valentino on June 18, 2009, 10:50:10 PM
Anybody else who get the Nibelheim-Musik (anvils and all) in their head now?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on June 19, 2009, 01:54:35 AM
Quote from: Valentino on June 18, 2009, 10:50:10 PM
Anybody else who get the Nibelheim-Musik (anvils and all) in their head now?


Oh yeah, especially doing chores.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 19, 2009, 05:36:55 PM
QuoteRecital Lauritz Melchior  €1.00

- Lauritz Melchior

"Allmächt'ger Vater" from Rienzi by Wagner, "Ein Schwert verhiess mir der Vater" from Die Walküre by Wagner, "Gia Sacerdoti adunasi" (with Margarethe Arndt-Ober) from Aida by Verdi, "Inbrunst im Herzen" from Tannhäuser by Wagner, "O paradise" from L'Africaine by Meyerbeer, "Dio mi potevi scagliar" and "Niun me tema" from Otello by Verdi, "Die Selige Frau" (with Lotte Lehmann) from Die Walküre by Wagner, "Nur eine Waffe taugt" from Parsifal by Wagner, "In fernem Land" from Lohengrin by Wagner, "Am stille Herd" and "Morgenlich leuchtend im rosigen Schein" from Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg by Wagner (all sung in german) - Lauritz Melchior (tenor) Recorded in 1923-1939 Duration: 53 minutes 18 seconds  File: RecitalMelchior.mp3

Listen to an extract   http://www.classicalmusicmobile.com/catalog/extracts/RecitalMelchiorExtract.mp3

The whole thing is available for download: 1 euro, please.


Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Coopmv on June 20, 2009, 08:04:01 PM
Here is an excellent recording of music for Wagner's Valhalla, among the some three dozen Telarc CD's I own ...   ;D

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AKKRH9MPL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on June 21, 2009, 01:17:29 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on June 20, 2009, 08:04:01 PM
Here is an excellent recording of music for Wagner's Valhalla, among the some three dozen Telarc CD's I own ...   ;D

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AKKRH9MPL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)



You know, I've been reccomended that so many times (laughing). I need to get a grip and check it out.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Coopmv on June 21, 2009, 06:06:03 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on June 21, 2009, 01:17:29 AM


You know, I've been reccomended that so many times (laughing). I need to get a grip and check it out.

The SQ of this CD is excellent for a redbook CD ...    ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Anne on June 21, 2009, 08:54:23 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on June 20, 2009, 08:04:01 PM
Here is an excellent recording of music for Wagner's Valhalla, among the some three dozen Telarc CD's I own ...   ;D

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AKKRH9MPL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

That CD was recommended to me as a starting point for learning Wagner's music.  When it finally penetrated, I was in tears and couldn't imagine anything more beautiful.  Next my "teacher" said to listen to the same music with the voices added i.e., the "bloody chunks."  They added immense enjoyment and again I was duty bound to shed some tears for the beauty of that also.

Finally I returned to the "Ring without Words" and surprised myself by not liking it as much as before.  Without the voices, something was lacking and I have felt that way ever since.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Dr. Dread on June 21, 2009, 08:57:06 AM
Quote from: Anne on June 21, 2009, 08:54:23 AM
That CD was recommended to me as a starting point for learning Wagner's music.  When it finally penetrated, I was in tears and couldn't imagine anything more beautiful.  Next my "teacher" said to listen to the same music with the voices added i.e., the "bloody chunks."  They added immense enjoyment and again I was duty bound to shed some tears for the beauty of that also.

Finally I returned to the "Ring without Words" and surprised myself by not liking it as much as before.  Without the voices, something was lacking and I have felt that way ever since.

Yes, you never really have to put the training wheels back on.  ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Anne on June 21, 2009, 09:01:23 AM
 ;D

P.S.  Congratulations on your splendid weight loss.  Keep up the good work!  Soon you'll have me on a diet too.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Dr. Dread on June 21, 2009, 09:10:23 AM
Quote from: Anne on June 21, 2009, 09:01:23 AM
;D

P.S.  Congratulations on your splendid weight loss.  Keep up the good work!  Soon you'll have me on a diet too.

Thank you. I'm pleased that my actions are proving inspirational.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Valentino on June 22, 2009, 12:38:26 AM
Quote from: Anne on June 21, 2009, 08:54:23 AM
That CD was recommended to me as a starting point for learning Wagner's music.  When it finally penetrated, I was in tears and couldn't imagine anything more beautiful.  Next my "teacher" said to listen to the same music with the voices added i.e., the "bloody chunks."  They added immense enjoyment and again I was duty bound to shed some tears for the beauty of that also.

Finally I returned to the "Ring without Words" and surprised myself by not liking it as much as before.  Without the voices, something was lacking and I have felt that way ever since.

Quite interesting, and different from my way to Wagner. I did't get Wagner. Ok, the Tannhäuser Prelude is beautiful, but I did't warm to Holländer in the opera, or to C. Kleiber's Tristan (and CK couldn't do no wrong in my book).
So I went to the library, borrowed the Ring (Solti-Leinsdorf-Solti-Böhm), and a Danish book about the whole shebang. And was hooked before the entry of the Rhinemaidens.
Now I wonder if I'll get Tristan and the other stuff. Tickets for Tannhäuser at the fantastic opera house in Oslo are secured for March next year, at least.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on June 22, 2009, 02:14:22 AM
Quote from: Valentino on June 22, 2009, 12:38:26 AM
Quite interesting, and different from my way to Wagner. I did't get Wagner. Ok, the Tannhäuser Prelude is beautiful, but I did't warm to Holländer in the opera, or to C. Kleiber's Tristan (and CK couldn't do no wrong in my book).
So I went to the library, borrowed the Ring (Solti-Leinsdorf-Solti-Böhm), and a Danish book about the whole shebang. And was hooked before the entry of the Rhinemaidens.
Now I wonder if I'll get Tristan and the other stuff. Tickets for Tannhäuser at the fantastic opera house in Oslo are secured for March next year, at least.



Tristan is hard, and remains hard for me. I learned early on that one has to be totally "there" when experiencing Tristan und Isolde: no mind-wandering. Total focus. And one has to try to completely wipe out any "pop" preconceptions: the pesky, lingering habit of waiting for resolution in music. Once I completely lock into Tristan und Isolde, I see why Verdi has a hard time believing it was written by "a human being". The twists and turns, the unbelievably brilliant orchestration...

In Tristan und Isolde, Wagner went beyond the whole "orchestra as chorus/main character". He made the orchestra become the conscience, emotion, and inner combatant of each character, scene, situation. The orchestra became absolutely vital, instead of accompanying. This he did to varying extents in the latter fourth of the Ring, but nowhere near as prevalent as in Tristan.

There are parts that are just way too long : King Marke's monologue in Act II comes most readily to mind (to this day I often just ff through alot of it). In fact, Act II remains the most difficult for me, probably because alot of it is so inwardly oriented. The whole "night" (inward experience) vs. "day" (other people, "real" world, etc.) is something that is perhaps too close to my own experience (I'm a bit of an agoraphobe and shun the company of other people for the most part).

But, like the majority of Wagner's operas, the experience pays off, again and again ("thus spoke the Hallmark card company").
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brünnhilde ewig on June 22, 2009, 07:04:08 AM
Great post, AndyD, about Tristan und Isolde, and helpful even for this old Wagnerian, thank you.

This great Wagner work has to be experienced as a video and my latest addition to my collection is the 2007 production at the Milan Scala with Daniel Barenboim conducting the performance directed by  Patrice Chéreau. It is Chéreau's work with the performers making the difference. He convinced them to act like actors, not just Wagnerian singers. Outstanding is Matti Salminen's König Marke, who walks among the performers when singing his famous solo. It has to be seen, can't be described in words!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on June 22, 2009, 10:18:18 AM
Quote from: Brünnhilde ewig on June 22, 2009, 07:04:08 AM
Great post, AndyD, about Tristan und Isolde, and helpful even for this old Wagnerian, thank you.

This great Wagner work has to be experienced as a video and my latest addition to my collection is the 2007 production at the Milan Scala with Daniel Barenboim conducting the performance directed by  Patrice Chéreau. It is Chéreau's work with the performers making the difference. He convinced them to act like actors, not just Wagnerian singers. Outstanding is Matti Salminen's König Marke, who walks among the performers when singing his famous solo. It has to be seen, can't be described in words!


Boy I need to see that one! I have the Barenboim Bayreuth dvd and like it. For audio I subdivide: For Act I the might Furtwangler, Act II Karajan, Act III Barenboim/Bayreuth. But for full the Kleiber.

Okay, I'm very weird.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on June 22, 2009, 10:47:58 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on June 22, 2009, 10:18:18 AM

Boy I need to see that one! I have the Barenboim Bayreuth dvd and like it. For audio I subdivide: For Act I the might Furtwangler, Act II Karajan, Act III Barenboim/Bayreuth. But for full the Kleiber.

Okay, I'm very weird.

Oh, I ca understand that. I don't mix and match, but Furtwangler would be my Act 1, Kleiber Act 2 and Karajan Act 3. One set only Kleiber, the atmosphere is narcotic, the orchestra translucent.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brünnhilde ewig on June 22, 2009, 11:38:38 AM
Mike, that would be the CD with the Dresdners? Yes, it is my favourite CD of Tristan und Isolde. Story goes around that the audio engineers asked Kleiber to stay around to help them with any corrections or changes. Kleiber told them: "It's perfect, no changes needed." and he went back home to Munich.  ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on June 22, 2009, 11:57:58 AM
Quote from: knight on June 22, 2009, 10:47:58 AM
One set only Kleiber, the atmosphere is narcotic, the orchestra translucent.

Mike


I'm completely in agreement.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on June 22, 2009, 12:58:35 PM
Lis, Yes it is with the Dresden mob. I initially had it on LP, seemingly Kleiber insisted the sides be faded out and in. It was a very odd idea, a complete throwback. You heard the same music twice as the ebb and flow took place. Thank goodness there is no such eccentricity on the CDs.

I also read that Margaret Price and Kollo were never in the studio together....whatever, they sound convincing and there has never been a more beautiful sounding or womanly Isolde, though it really is not the classic voice for the part.

BTW, Andy, I used to think as you do about King Mark, but now I think it just right, an unwinding and descent into tragedy from the hysteria of the love duet.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on June 22, 2009, 03:10:19 PM
Quote from: knight on June 22, 2009, 12:58:35 PM


BTW, Andy, I used to think as you do about King Mark, but now I think it just right, an unwinding and descent into tragedy from the hysteria of the love duet.

Mike


I should thank you in advance, Mike, because I'll bet that next time I listen, I'll get more out of it by keeping that in mind.

For now, though, I'm aching to check out the post-Fafner slaying, orchestral-angst imposition in Solti's Siegfried. The way the orchestra swells and falls...so tidal. Like the experience of despair itself.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ChamberNut on June 22, 2009, 04:17:00 PM
Quote from: AndyD. on June 22, 2009, 03:10:19 PM

For now, though, I'm aching to check out the post-Fafner slaying, orchestral-angst imposition in Solti's Siegfried. The way the orchestra swells and falls...so tidal. Like the experience of despair itself.

Mmm, my favorite!  :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Coopmv on June 22, 2009, 05:33:33 PM
Here is one of my favorites ...

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on June 23, 2009, 12:17:36 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on June 17, 2009, 03:10:13 PM
Maybe there are 11 that can be engaged at the Met, a big hall, a big orchestra and arguably the best opera house in the world with the pickiest audience.  That doesn't mean there aren't others who can sing the role if expectations are out of the stratosphere.  I am still somewhat skeptical that in the "good old days" there were many more who could do the job. 

I've been looking for that post. Eleven, huh? Could you name them?

(And I agree absolutely about the myth of the "good old / golden days". There may be seasonal shortcomings in certain Fachs, bu over all the singers are only getting better. And that's not even talking about their acting which has come from non-existent to a very high level in some of the more exalted cases on today's stages.)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Valentino on June 23, 2009, 01:11:10 AM
After listening to Hagen's calling of his vassals as done by Böhm, Karajan, and Solti this is clear as the waters of the Rhine:

Gotta have Stierhorns, man! And that means Solti.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on June 23, 2009, 01:54:34 AM
Quote from: Valentino on June 23, 2009, 01:11:10 AM
After listening to Hagen's calling of his vassals as done by Böhm, Karajan, and Solti this is clear as the waters of the Rhine:

Gotta have Stierhorns, man! And that means Solti.


That's one of the parts that Solti really shined on. Fantastically rousing.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ChamberNut on June 23, 2009, 03:37:19 AM
Quote from: Valentino on June 23, 2009, 01:11:10 AM
After listening to Hagen's calling of his vassals as done by Böhm, Karajan, and Solti this is clear as the waters of the Rhine:

Gotta have Stierhorns, man! And that means Solti.

Love the steerhorns in Solti's Ring.  LOVE THEM!  Incredibly ominous.  What a unique sound.  :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Valentino on June 23, 2009, 04:15:36 AM
My father in law has a neverlur that sounds quite similar to the Solti Stierhorns.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/Neverlur.JPG/260px-Neverlur.JPG)

It's customary to sound it on midsummers eve and casual party nights. Funny thing: There will always be one answering! One of the joys of living in the countryside, this.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ChamberNut on June 23, 2009, 04:36:36 AM
Quote from: Valentino on June 23, 2009, 04:15:36 AM
My father in law has a neverlur that sounds quite similar to the Solti Stierhorns.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/Neverlur.JPG/260px-Neverlur.JPG)

It's customary to sound it on midsummers eve and casual party nights. Funny thing: There will always be one answering! One of the joys of living in the countryside, this.



Not as long obviously, but it kind of reminds me a bit of the alphorn.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Valentino on June 23, 2009, 04:56:03 AM
The one my father in law has is about 4 feet long. Not quite as long as ein Alpenhorn. It's a sheperds horn, the neverlur. The lur was also made of brass. They were twice as long, but still carryable.

(http://am.uis.no/getfile.php/Arkeologisk%20museum/bronselur.jpg)

Now, where's the mjød? ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brünnhilde ewig on June 28, 2009, 07:42:50 PM
Anybody interested in this year's Bayreuth Festival and some knowledge of German? Here is the web site supplied by Deutsche Welle -German public TV channel.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4434681,00.html
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brünnhilde ewig on July 10, 2009, 09:27:31 AM
Finally a new and charming production of this aged tear jerker: Lohengrin.With Janos Kaufmann in the title role, is has to be super!

Some day I'll find out who Lohengrin's mother is (was), Parsifal didn't do it with Kundry, remember?   ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brünnhilde ewig on July 10, 2009, 09:32:24 AM
Another one:

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on July 10, 2009, 09:40:24 AM
Lis, No answer to who was Lohengrin's mother.

http://listserv.bccls.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=OPERA-L;ZKGJew;19971114080115-0500B

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 10, 2009, 09:48:02 AM
Quote from: Brünnhilde ewig on July 10, 2009, 09:27:31 AM
Finally a new and charming production of this aged tear jerker: Lohengrin.With Janos Kaufmann in the title role, is has to be super!

Some day I'll find out who Lohengrin's mother is (was), Parsifal didn't do it with Kundry, remember?   ;)

QuoteDoes Wagner give us a clue, in either Lohengrin or Parsifal, as to the lady who was  the mother of Parsifal's son Lohengrin?

No, he does not, since Lohengrin was not written as "Parsifal part 2" but independently. For the story of Lohengrin, the name of his mother is irrelevant (we do not get to know the names of Elsa's and Ortrud's mother either). For the story of Parsifal with the male-only membership of the Gral knights, the question of marriage and fatherhood for Parsifal is irrelevant - at least, he certainly is to be considered a "male virgin" at the end of the opera, and Kundry (the only female character in that opera) is not supposed to be his wife of mother of his children.

--
Dr. Hubert Partl         
Wien, Austria (Europe)

Well, I don't exactly have any personal knowledge, Brünnhilde, but I did find this, which seems reasonable to me... :)

8)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on July 10, 2009, 09:48:49 AM
Quote from: Brünnhilde ewig on July 10, 2009, 09:27:31 AM
Finally a new and charming production of this aged tear jerker: Lohengrin.With Janos Kaufmann in the title role, is has to be super!

Some day I'll find out who Lohengrin's mother is (was), Parsifal didn't do it with Kundry, remember?   ;)

Saw that two nights ago. Will link to a review later this weekend.


Lovely acting, very fine singing, stupid production, but really well directed.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brünnhilde ewig on July 10, 2009, 10:17:56 AM
I'll look forward to that, Jens!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brünnhilde ewig on July 10, 2009, 10:24:09 AM
Mike, that's a good article, thank you for digging it up.  :-*

Eternal female curiosity has been bugging me for years, looks like I should file that question under: Only Wagner knew!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on July 10, 2009, 10:25:23 AM
And Parsifal I assume.

Mike >:D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Anne on July 10, 2009, 11:49:38 AM
Liz:
"Eternal female curiosity has been bugging me for years, looks like I should file that question under: Only Wagner knew!"

Looks like a good question for AC.   0:)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brünnhilde ewig on July 10, 2009, 11:55:36 AM
I did ask him, Ann! Years ago when we were still posting at the NYT forum. He doesn't know either and, what's more, he doesn't care. If Richard Wagner doesn't tell us, than we should accept that we don't need to know. ACD's reply is similar to the article Knight dug up.  :(
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Anne on July 10, 2009, 02:24:38 PM
Thanks!  I didn't know that.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brünnhilde ewig on July 10, 2009, 04:24:07 PM
Greer Grimsley, the Wotan in Seattle's 2009 Green Ring.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on July 10, 2009, 10:48:18 PM
Looks like your kind of man Lis. Perhaps an extra day would have been a good idea after all.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on July 11, 2009, 09:12:26 AM
Quote from: Brünnhilde ewig on July 10, 2009, 04:24:07 PM
Greer Grimsley, the Wotan in Seattle's 2009 Green Ring.



 You know many months ago I called the Seattle opera house from London and asked them if they were ever going to release their "Green Ring" from 2005 on DVD.  On their website they show what is arguably the GREATEST Fafner I have ever seen I just had to get a copy in my collection.  Well, the man at the box office who I spoke to politely informed me that NONE of the Seattle opera Ring Cycle are recorded so there will mever be a DVD released........ :(.. >:( >:(!  If the Seattle opera house is ever going to compete with the MET a change of policy is in order  $:)!

 marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brünnhilde ewig on July 11, 2009, 09:34:30 AM
I am with you, Marvin, all the way! The Seattle Opera has an army of rich supporters, donors, they evidently don't need the income from commercially available DVDs. They most they agree to, is having their operas broadcast on KING FM. I have tried to listen but gave up because of the impossible sound. It was as if the mikes were placed next to all the percussionists and the singers were out in my kitchen.

Their pricing is outrageous! For my ticket - August 26th, Die Walküre - in the orchestra center back section, about 3/4 back from the orchestra, was $323. A friend attended the NY Met last year also for Die Walküre, sat in Center Orchestra, less than halfway from the orchestra and paid $175!

Their fund solicitors are very aggressive with their constant telephone calls; one called me after I had already bought my ticket and she expressed regret because I didn't go for the entire Ring and then reminded me that I had not made any donation since me last one, six month ago!

Apologies for my lengthy gripe, but my experiences mesh perfectly with yours, Marvin: Their wrong attitude.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Coopmv on July 11, 2009, 03:40:08 PM
Quote from: Brünnhilde ewig on July 11, 2009, 09:34:30 AM
I am with you, Marvin, all the way! The Seattle Opera has an army of rich supporters, donors, they evidently don't need the income from commercially available DVDs. They most they agree to, is having their operas broadcast on KING FM. I have tried to listen but gave up because of the impossible sound. It was as if the mikes were placed next to all the percussionists and the singers were out in my kitchen.

Their pricing is outrageous! For my ticket - August 26th, Die Walküre - in the orchestra center back section, about 3/4 back from the orchestra, was $323. A friend attended the NY Met last year also for Die Walküre, sat in Center Orchestra, less than halfway from the orchestra and paid $175!

Their fund solicitors are very aggressive with their constant telephone calls; one called me after I had already bought my ticket and she expressed regret because I didn't go for the entire Ring and then reminded me that I had not made any donation since me last one, six month ago!

Apologies for my lengthy gripe, but my experiences mesh perfectly with yours, Marvin: Their wrong attitude.

I am not so convinced if the Met is all that wonderful.  While Washington (state) and Oregon are not New York, some of the summer classical music programs available in these locales are no doubt of higher quality than what are available in the NY metro area.  For someone who loves baroque music and Bach in particular, the annual Oregon Bach Festival is probably the best in the US with Helmut Rilling and his Bach-Collegium Stuttgart being regular fixtures ...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 12, 2009, 05:09:56 PM
Am I the only one to have noticed that Kaufmann has turned into a magyar? Well, if one is to believe Lis' orthograph of his first name  ;)

Speaking of magyar Lohengrins, I downloaded a 1958 Bayreuth production with the real article: Sandor Konya. I had the chance to compare with another legendary wagnerian tenor (Windgassen) and to my ears there was no contest. Plus, I'll hage the chance to sample Astrid  Varnay's hair-raising witch of an Ortrud, and Cluytens' passionate, elegant conducting. Download the whole thing for just one euro  :o
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brünnhilde ewig on July 12, 2009, 05:19:44 PM
Ach you are so clever, mein Spezi Andreas!  :P

If I were to correct my wrong spelling, your funny would be senseless, so I'll leave it and let you enjoy your glory!  :-*
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 12, 2009, 05:57:49 PM
No glory there, liebling :-*. I couldn't let pass this occasion to seamlessly slip in my latest Wagner purchase and, by the same token, plug in an excellent music web site!!  Joke apart, Konya sings wonderfully here.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on July 15, 2009, 05:32:10 AM
Review took a little longer... but as threatened, here it is:

Lohengrin with Kaufmann & Harteros (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/07/ionarts-at-large-munichs-lohengrin-with.html)

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_fvqDJniJWuw/Sl29shnn4UI/AAAAAAAAA0E/ygPG4ns8jW8/s400/Lohengrin_Kaufmann_Harteros_3.+Akt+5-2_Medium.JPG) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/07/ionarts-at-large-munichs-lohengrin-with.html)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brünnhilde ewig on July 15, 2009, 10:39:25 AM
There you are, Jens, I have been checking our blog for a few days!

Your well written review - they always are! - leaves some questions in my mind. "Anja Harteros outshone even Jonas Kaufmann". He is not at his best, or he is awesome but she is even awesomer? Jens, somehow I have the feeling you don't like Kaufmann, something missing. You think he is just a flash in the pan? Or has he refused to give you an interview and you are pissed?

Back to the performance: Odd production by Richard Jones but as you reported it to us, not far off, could be understood and accepted; it's simply having to get used to the total difference in locale, period, etc. from other productions usually still in the 'White-Knight' mode.

Thank you Jens, very glad to have you with us, don't leave!  :-*
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on July 15, 2009, 10:46:32 AM
Thanks for the review. Reading through it, my reaction is that I would be happier to listen to it as against also watch it.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brünnhilde ewig on July 15, 2009, 10:55:12 AM
I had the same thought, Mike, buy the CD when it comes out. But then there is Das ewig Weibliche dominantly asking for the visual because of this yummy, curly-haired - chest-haired! - Kaufmann.  >:D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on July 15, 2009, 01:48:26 PM
Quote from: Brünnhilde ewig on July 15, 2009, 10:39:25 AM
Your review leaves some questions in my mind. "Anja Harteros outshone even Jonas Kaufmann". He is not at his best, or he is awesome but she is even awesomer? Jens, somehow I have the feeling you don't like Kaufmann, something missing. You think he is just a flash in the pan? 

Back to the performance: Odd production by Richard Jones but as you reported it to us, not far off, could be understood and accepted; it's simply having to get used to the total difference in locale, period, etc. from other productions usually still in the 'White-Knight' mode.

Hmmm... must not have been precise enough in my review:

1.) I like Kaufmann. Great actor, good looking, wonderful singer. Much more than a flash in the pan, given that there are not that many tenors with his set of abilities out there.
It's just that Harteros was, as you say, even awesomer.

2.) Richard Jones' production has more problems than getting used to can solve... I don't see much future for it in the repertoire, lest it be reworked to either explain extraneous ideas or omit them. But it can't undo a cast like that and it could have been so much worse!!!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on July 20, 2009, 04:21:04 AM

 Wagner fans, friends, colleagues and affectionados......I am in a silly mood so I decided to post this and get some feedback:

 Leonard Bernstein once said that he "hated Wagner but on bended knee" What the hell is that supposed to mean??  ??? Jealousy? Envy? This love/hate relationship people have with Wagner is very irritating..........  Discuss.......


  EDIT: Ditto Nietzsche who seemed to suffer from the same schizophrenic feelings that Bernstein has.  It's as if both were "blown away" by the operas of Wagner yet wished deep down inside that they had never known them nor Wagner!

 marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on July 20, 2009, 05:09:45 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on July 20, 2009, 04:21:04 AM

 Leonard Bernstein once said that he "hated Wagner but on bended knee" What the hell is that supposed to mean??  ??? Jealousy? Envy? This love/hate relationship people have with Wagner is very irritating..........  Discuss.......

  EDIT: Ditto Nietzsche who seemed to suffer from the same schizophrenic feelings that Bernstein has.  It's as if both were "blown away" by the operas of Wagner yet wished deep down inside that they had never known them nor Wagner!

Shouldn't be irritating to you. Wagner was an irritating chap. Certainly no one can take objection to those being irritated, who knew him personally--and very well--like Nietzsche. Their relationship is very interesting... Wagner thought he could utilize Nietzsche; Nietzsche adored and learned much from Wagner. Later on, when N. developed his own strong personality and realized that the formerly common ideals he shared or thought to have shared with Wagner, N. got disenchanted. Certainly when Wagner came to champion this strange concoction of  Buddhist flavored, Schoppenhaueristic, retro-Christian wafty religious feeling and aura for his works (Parsifal). N. knew that the music was f&#*(*$ brilliant; but seductive toward ends that he thought were all wrong. That, and in fact jealousy, once Wagner was successful and Nietzsche was still struggling.

Bernstein, now, can't be blamed, either. As a good Jewish boy, Wagner obviously had some aspects of his personality to offer that made him legitimately unpalatable to Lennie. That said, it's a sign of artistic objectivity that Bernstein didn't just say: "Wagner sucks"... but that Wagner was musical greatness that came with pills a little too bitter for Bernstein to swallow on a regular basis.

What exactly LB's thoughts on Wagners' music were, I do not actually know. We certainly know he conducted Tristan well enough.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on July 20, 2009, 05:35:12 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 20, 2009, 05:09:45 AM
Shouldn't be irritating to you. Wagner was an irritating chap. Certainly no one can take objection to those being irritated, who knew him personally--and very well--like Nietzsche. Their relationship is very interesting... Wagner thought he could utilize Nietzsche; Nietzsche adored and learned much from Wagner. Later on, when N. developed his own strong personality and realized that the formerly common ideals he shared or thought to have shared with Wagner, N. got disenchanted. Certainly when Wagner came to champion this strange concoction of  Buddhist flavored, Schoppenhaueristic, retro-Christian wafty religious feeling and aura for his works (Parsifal). N. knew that the music was f&#*(*$ brilliant; but seductive toward ends that he thought were all wrong. That, and in fact jealousy, once Wagner was successful and Nietzsche was still struggling.

Bernstein, now, can't be blamed, either. As a good Jewish boy, Wagner obviously had some aspects of his personality to offer that made him legitimately unpalatable to Lennie. That said, it's a sign of artistic objectivity that Bernstein didn't just say: "Wagner sucks"... but that Wagner was musical greatness that came with pills a little too bitter for Bernstein to swallow on a regular basis.

What exactly LB's thoughts on Wagners' music were, I do not actually know. We certainly know he conducted Tristan well enough.



This is a well thought out post with alot of points that I very much agree with.

I am completely fascinated by Wagner's music and art in general. But his politics I find to be completely idiotic. This includes his boneheaded nationalistic views, his laughable letters to Ludwig outlining his ideas for a "new Germany"... I could go on and on (HE sure as heck did...yawn), but most of you are quite familiar with the most retarded of his views.

From an artistic perspective, it's difficult not have a high regard for Wagner.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 20, 2009, 05:42:46 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 20, 2009, 05:09:45 AM
What exactly LB's thoughts on Wagners' music were, I do not actually know. We certainly know he conducted Tristan well enough.

Bernstein said, "Wagner was a sublime genius...so prophetic, so profoundly understanding of the human condition. At the same time he was the most disagreeable, intolerable megalomaniac." Not specifically about the music but I think we can assume he felt the same way about the notes as about the man. He rarely conducted Wagner, but when he did it almost seemed like an act of worship (i.e., that Tristan).

Interestingly, Bernstein once said he thought he could be the reincarnation of Wagner and some critics have characterized his opera A Quiet Place as an "American Ring." He proposed and partially taped a Wagner program in Vienna for PBS, the subtitle of which would have been, "What's a nice Jewish boy like you doing in a place like this playing racist music." Obviously he had a schizophrenic relationship with Wagner which explains his "bended knee" remark.

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on July 20, 2009, 05:45:29 AM
Hmmm...I've never heard Bernstein's Wagner, so now of course I'm curious.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on July 20, 2009, 05:53:17 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on July 20, 2009, 05:35:12 AM

I am completely fascinated by Wagner's music and art in general. But his politics I find to be completely idiotic. This includes his boneheaded nationalistic views, his laughable letters to Ludwig outlining his ideas for a "new Germany"... I could go on and on (HE sure as heck did...yawn), but most of you are quite familiar with the most retarded of his views.


Well... it's impossible not to misunderstand Wagner when you don't understand the time he lived in. There was no Germany... and to be nationalistic was something radically different then than it is now. Certainly his views on many things were not boneheaded but a product of his time... and in any case often radical in ways we might appreciate. Certainly being kicked out of Saxony (there was no Germany at the time, and wouldn't until just 12 years before Wagner died) for alleged symphatzising (if not organizing) with republican ideals is something that can strongly appeal to anyone who values the freedom of the individual over absolutist regimes.

The very architecture of Bayreuth is designed with these republican ideals in mind, and they certainly were a liberal breath of fresh air at the time.

The fact is that most of us are NOT familiar with his views, and those who are somewhat, not familiar with all his views. We are judging on hearsay evidence or bits and pieces here and there. This is not trying to extradite Wagner in general (he still offers plenty to be exacerbated about, private or public), but we should a bit more about what he actually thought and what circumstances he was operating under, before we go about poo-pooing all that Wagner was about (even if we explicitly excempt the music).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on July 20, 2009, 06:03:36 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 20, 2009, 05:53:17 AM
Well... it's impossible not to misunderstand Wagner when you don't understand the time he lived in. There was no Germany... and to be nationalistic was something radically different then than it is now. Certainly his views on many things were not boneheaded but a product of his time... and in any case often radical in ways we might appreciate. Certainly being kicked out of Saxony (there was no Germany at the time, and wouldn't until just 12 years before Wagner died) for alleged symphatzising (if not organizing) with republican ideals is something that can strongly appeal to anyone who values the freedom of the individual over absolutist regimes.

The very architecture of Bayreuth is designed with these republican ideals in mind, and they certainly were a liberal breath of fresh air at the time.

The fact is that most of us are NOT familiar with his views, and those who are somewhat, not familiar with all his views. We are judging on hearsay evidence or bits and pieces here and there. This is not trying to extradite Wagner in general (he still offers plenty to be exacerbated about, private or public), but we should a bit more about what he actually thought and what circumstances he was operating under, before we go about poo-pooing all that Wagner was about (even if we explicitly excempt the music).


I mean no offense or disprespect, but I've studied Wagner's life, writings, and music extensively (I still AM studying them!). It's quite true that his nationalism was a product of both his time and youth (for the most part), but it doesn't really take away from the fact that it was a BONEheaded view to begin with. That he should have had enough brains to have seen just how unfunnily ridiculous such views were. He was a total trend-shattering trailblazer when it came to Art, why couldn't he have similarly refused to jump on the nationalistic bandwagon? When I wrote that alot of his writings and views were boneheaded, I wrote that keeping in mind all the studies I've done on him and his circumstances. His and Cosima's diaries alone portray Wagner as a generally brutal, unkind, in-love-with-himself-and-his-often-erroneous-opinions sorta guy.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on July 20, 2009, 06:23:17 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on July 20, 2009, 06:03:36 AM

I mean no offense or disprespect, but I've studied Wagner's life, writings, and music extensively (I still AM studying them!). It's quite true that his nationalism was a product of both his time and youth (for the most part), but it doesn't really take away from the fact that it was a BONEheaded view to begin with. That he should have had enough brains to have seen just how unfunnily ridiculous such views were. He was a total trend-shattering trailblazer when it came to Art, why couldn't he have similarly refused to jump on the nationalistic bandwagon? When I wrote that alot of his writings and views were boneheaded, I wrote that keeping in mind all the studies I've done on him and his circumstances. His and Cosima's diaries alone portray Wagner as a generally brutal, unkind, in-love-with-himself-and-his-often-erroneous-opinions sorta guy.

I'm sorry, but I'm sure you can understand that I underestimate your nuance in talking about Wagner and 19th Ct. Germany when you use terms like "boneheaded".  ;)

And meaning neither offense nor disrespect, either, I'm not sure if you are comfortably appreciating the concept of 19th ct. nationalism. Wagner isn't...
(And "brutal"? Where do you get that from? Ruthless, perhaps.) His is not the same nationalism of, say, Werner Sombart or Carl Schmitt. Being all too casual in dismissing the (in this case political, not racial or musical) views of influential past figures like Wagner just doesn't sit too well with me. One could go that very route and dismiss Aristotle and his boneheaded ideas of not including women (as actors or voters) in the polis of his day. Should he have had enough brains to see how ridiculous such views were?  ;D

Cheers, mate...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on July 20, 2009, 06:47:57 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 20, 2009, 06:23:17 AM
I'm sorry, but I'm sure you can understand that I underestimate your nuance in talking about Wagner and 19th Ct. Germany when you use terms like "boneheaded".  ;)

I can understand and appreciate that. I also consider the nationalism in Germany in the 20th century to have been boneheaded. For me, it's acceptable to be at least somewhat dismissive of such horrifically stupid thinking.

Quote from: jlaurson on July 20, 2009, 06:23:17 AM

And meaning neither offense nor disrespect, either, I'm not sure if you are comfortably appreciating the concept of 19th ct. nationalism. Wagner isn't
(And "brutal"? Where do you get that from? Ruthless, perhaps.) His is not the same nationalism of, say, Werner Sombart or Carl Schmitt. Being all too casual in dismissing the (in this case political, not racial or musical) views of influential past figures like Wagner just doesn't sit too well with me. One could go that very route and dismiss Aristotle and his boneheaded ideas of not including women (as actors or voters) in the polis of his day. Should he have had enough brains to see how ridiculous such views were?  ;D

Cheers, mate...

Very good points. Again we're back to attempting to both separate and juxtapose the artist and the "thinker". I admire how you are making a great effort to get away from the value-judgment part of the topic.

You're right, a cool head is always the best bet, particularly during any sort of debate. And I totally sympathise with your positions.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: greg on July 20, 2009, 07:02:32 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on July 20, 2009, 05:45:29 AM
Hmmm...I've never heard Bernstein's Wagner, so now of course I'm curious.
Ever watch this? Looks like he's a bit too into it... he might have had to clean himself up when he finished.  ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XlmJtnzwkY
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on July 20, 2009, 07:04:24 AM
Quote from: Greg on July 20, 2009, 07:02:32 AM
Ever watch this? Looks like he's a bit too into it... he might have had to clean himself up when he finished.  ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XlmJtnzwkY


Cool! Reminds me of Solti in the Golden Ring.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brünnhilde ewig on July 20, 2009, 07:39:07 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on July 20, 2009, 06:47:57 AM
somewhat dismissive of such horrifically stupid thinking.


Dear Andy: Do me a favour and drop your judgement of political conditions in Germany and the thinking of the German people; stick to the subject of Wagner's Valhalla, which you spelled wrong to begin with. In Wagner's Gesamtkunstwerk it is spelled Walhall!

That's a good boy!  8)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on July 20, 2009, 07:44:52 AM
Quote from: Brünnhilde ewig on July 20, 2009, 07:39:07 AM
Dear Andy: Do me a favour and drop your judgement of political conditions in Germany and the thinking of the German people; stick to the subject of Wagner's Valhalla, which you spelled wrong to begin with. In Wagner's Gesamtkunstwerk it is spelled Walhall!

That's a good boy!  8)

I'm part German, and I still think race-based Nationalism is boneheaded and wrong. Sorry, won't change my tone there. And I never spelled Wagner's Valhalla, somebody else did that.

There's a good girl.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on July 20, 2009, 07:50:38 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 20, 2009, 07:46:52 AM
Incidentally, and in his defense, he's not responsible for the spelling of the title, some 46 pages ago. That was one "Isolde". And if we're talking Wagner's spelling, wouldn't it be "Walhalla"?  ;)



WHOA! Nice website, Jens! Just stumbled on it...I'll be on there for a good portion of this afternoon.
Title: Re: Wagner's Vhatever
Post by: Wendell_E on July 20, 2009, 08:38:05 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 20, 2009, 07:46:52 AM
And if we're talking Wagner's spelling, wouldn't it be "Walhalla"?  ;)

Nope, Wagner never has Walhalla, it's always Walhall or the possesive Walhalls.  Though on an English speaking website, I think Valhalla's perfectly fine.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: duncan on August 03, 2009, 12:17:43 PM
For people who have read reviews (for example, here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/opera/5965257/Gotterdammerung-by-the-Mariinsky-Opera-Covent-Garden---review.html), here (http://intermezzo.typepad.com/intermezzo/2009/08/-g%C3%B6tterd%C3%A4mmerung-mariinsky.html), and here (http://jonathanburton.wordpress.com/2009/08/03/gergievs-ring-at-covent-garden/)) of the Mariinsky ring just finished in London and are thinking it can't have been that bad.  You're right: it was worse.  An embarrassing shambles that should never have been allowed on stage.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Anne on August 04, 2009, 10:18:21 PM
Did they need a new director or conductor?  What was needed to repair the problems?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brünnhilde ewig on August 09, 2009, 12:44:39 PM
While surfing the newspapers I found this insteresting one and because our esteemed member Jens Laurson contributed to the article, I believe it'll interest you:

Critic's Notebook: Mike Antonovich vs. Wagner
8:45 PM, July 15, 2009
 

On Tuesday, Los Angeles County Supervisor Mike Antonovich called for Los Angeles Opera -- which is scheduled to mount Wagner's four-opera "Ring" cycle next spring as well as coordinate a citywide festival on the "Ring" -- to "delete the focus on Wagner." He asks this on the grounds that Wagner was a racist and anti-Semite whose music Hitler enjoyed and employed to his own ends. In addition to Wagner, the supervisor suggests we turn to, among others, Mendelssohn, Schubert and Schumann, great composers who never properly mastered opera.

Posted by: Jens F. Laurson | July 16, 2009 at 08:12 AM
What Ms. Delmar and Supervisor Antonovich fail to understand (and I realize that is a big category in and of itself) is that it is not a Festival examining Wagner and his Ring cycle that will make LA look foolish, but the fact that this city would have this "debate" at all in this day and age that does so. Wagner, like all humans, was a complicated person with both good and bad qualities. Some of them, like his anti-Semitism are sadly quite common in people. Others, like his artistic achievements, are among the most rare in our species. To suggest that we should not discuss and focus on the life and work of a single person who did great things because some of his opinions from over a century ago don't jibe with our modern day sense of fairness or that he shared opinions with others who much later on did unspeakable things is so myopic it begs reason. We celebrate "great" individuals every day who were anti-Semities, racists, and frankly worse for far less than Wagner achieved. (Lincoln and Washington were not the nicest of guys at times either, believe you me.) To sort out only those historical figures who said and believed all of the things we feel most comfortable with today would leave us very little to talk about.
On the plus side though, all this does get Supervisor Antonovich and Ms. Delmar's name in the paper during a slow news cycle, which was probably the goal to begin with. It will probably also generate greater attention, ticket sales, and financial support for LA Opera. The city's image may be a little worse for the wear, but Los Angeles has always suffered from an anti-intellectual reputation.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brünnhilde ewig on August 09, 2009, 12:45:35 PM
The entire article can be read here:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/culturemonster/2009/07/mike-antonovich-and-wagner.html
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on August 09, 2009, 02:07:30 PM
Quote from: Brünnhilde ewig on August 09, 2009, 12:45:35 PM
The entire article can be read here:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/culturemonster/2009/07/mike-antonovich-and-wagner.html



This is an extremely interesting article, Brünnhilde. Thank you very much for posting it. I'm going to read it again now to make sure I absorb it all.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on August 09, 2009, 02:44:00 PM
Quote from: Brünnhilde ewig on August 09, 2009, 12:44:39 PM
While surfing the newspapers I found this insteresting one and because our esteemed member Jens Laurson contributed to the article, I believe it'll interest you:

Critic's Notebook: Mike Antonovich vs. Wagner
8:45 PM, July 15, 2009
 

On Tuesday, Los Angeles County Supervisor Mike Antonovich called for Los Angeles Opera -- which is scheduled to mount Wagner's four-opera "Ring" cycle next spring as well as coordinate a citywide festival on the "Ring" -- to "delete the focus on Wagner." He asks this on the grounds that Wagner was a racist and anti-Semite whose music Hitler enjoyed and employed to his own ends. In addition to Wagner, the supervisor suggests we turn to, among others, Mendelssohn, Schubert and Schumann, great composers who never properly mastered opera.
----------------------
Finally a writer who knows (and points out) that the very term "Anti Semitism" (Treitschke) wasn't coined until after Wagner's death (or at least late in his life).

It's interesting that the whole "WagnerTheJewHater" still comes up every so often... unabated vigor. Much more so than "We should never again drive a [Mercedes / Ford]" or "Aspirin is a Nazi-Medicine", these days, though those were once popular, too. And more often than not, it comes from the class of the professionally aggrieved, not the alleged victims on whose behalf they are unsolicitedly posturing.


Posted by: Jens F. Laurson | July 16, 2009 at 08:12 AM
----------------------
What Ms. Delmar and Supervisor Antonovich fail to understand (and I realize that is a big category in and of itself) is that it is not a Festival examining Wagner and his Ring cycle that will make LA look foolish, but the fact that this city would have this "debate" at all in this day and age that does so. Wagner, like all humans, was a complicated person with both good and bad qualities. Some of them, like his anti-Semitism are sadly quite common in people. Others, like his artistic achievements, are among the most rare in our species. To suggest that we should not discuss and focus on the life and work of a single person who did great things because some of his opinions from over a century ago don't jibe with our modern day sense of fairness or that he shared opinions with others who much later on did unspeakable things is so myopic it begs reason. We celebrate "great" individuals every day who were anti-Semities, racists, and frankly worse for far less than Wagner achieved. (Lincoln and Washington were not the nicest of guys at times either, believe you me.) To sort out only those historical figures who said and believed all of the things we feel most comfortable with today would leave us very little to talk about.
On the plus side though, all this does get Supervisor Antonovich and Ms. Delmar's name in the paper during a slow news cycle, which was probably the goal to begin with. It will probably also generate greater attention, ticket sales, and financial support for LA Opera. The city's image may be a little worse for the wear, but Los Angeles has always suffered from an anti-intellectual reputation.

Posted by: brian | July 16, 2009 at 08:24 AM


Although much of this response COULD have been by me--indeed, reading it now, I even thought for a while it WAS me who had written it--I can't take credit. It was a certain "Brian". [Although it almost feels as though the bold part was plagiarized from my thoughts.] I merely wrote the post above the one quoted here.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brünnhilde ewig on August 09, 2009, 02:54:27 PM
Well! Then I better set the record straight and post here your contribution:

Finally a writer who knows (and points out) that the very term "Anti Semitism" (Treitschke) wasn't coined until after Wagner's death (or at least late in his life).

It's interesting that the whole "WagnerTheJewHater" still comes up every so often... unabated vigor. Much more so than "We should never again drive a [Mercedes / Ford]" or "Aspiring is a Nazi-Medicine", these days, though those were once popular, too. And more often than not, it comes from the class of the professionally aggrieved, not the alleged victims on whose behalf they are unsolicitedly posturing.

Posted by: Jens F. Laurson | July 16, 2009 at 08:12 AM
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Valentino on August 10, 2009, 01:00:32 PM
Meanwhile, in Hamar, Norway, Kirsten Flagstad's childhood home is getting a new coat of paint.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brünnhilde ewig on August 10, 2009, 08:06:18 PM
Meanwhile in Bayreuth: Tristan and Bratwurst:

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4554432,00.html
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 10, 2009, 10:22:04 PM
Quote from: Brünnhilde ewig on August 10, 2009, 08:06:18 PM
Meanwhile in Bayreuth: Tristan and Bratwurst:

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4554432,00.html

Thanks for Sandals and Isolde.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: eyeresist on August 11, 2009, 12:04:42 AM
Quote from: duncan on August 03, 2009, 12:17:43 PMFor people who have read reviews (for example, here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/opera/5965257/Gotterdammerung-by-the-Mariinsky-Opera-Covent-Garden---review.html), here (http://intermezzo.typepad.com/intermezzo/2009/08/-g%C3%B6tterd%C3%A4mmerung-mariinsky.html), and here (http://jonathanburton.wordpress.com/2009/08/03/gergievs-ring-at-covent-garden/)) of the Mariinsky ring just finished in London and are thinking it can't have been that bad.  You're right: it was worse.  An embarrassing shambles that should never have been allowed on stage.
Judging only from the pictures at your linked reviews (curtain calls only), I'd say things didn't look too bad, in terms of costume and set. I've certainly seen (pictures of) more misguided productions (e.g. the Kuhn cycle).


In other news, I took delivery today of my first complete Ring boxset!  :) :) :)

I got the Neuhold, because it's modern, generally well reviewed, and amazingly cheap.

I think first thing I'll do is make a quick and dirty comparison with my Solti Rheingold and Furtwangler/EMI Walkure, just to see how things measure up. Then I'll dig out the libretto and start thinking about how I can make a Ring-sized hole in my schedule over the next couple of weeks.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on August 11, 2009, 01:25:21 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 11, 2009, 12:04:42 AM
Judging only from the pictures at your linked reviews (curtain calls only), I'd say things didn't look too bad, in terms of costume and set. I've certainly seen (pictures of) more misguided productions (e.g. the Kuhn cycle).

I believe the Mariinsky Ring didn't so much suck because of the staging (which I've not seen), but because the orchestra and perhaps the conductor, too, have simply no way with the music. I suffered through their Parsifal not too long ago, and it was an excrutiatingly bad performance; all musicians lost, no purpose, nor arch. Astonishingly terrible.

Quote
In other news, I took delivery today of my first complete Ring boxset!  :) :) :)

I got the Neuhold, because it's modern, generally well reviewed, and amazingly cheap.

I think first thing I'll do is make a quick and dirty comparison with my Solti Rheingold and Furtwangler/EMI Walkure, just to see how things measure up. Then I'll dig out the libretto and start thinking about how I can make a Ring-sized hole in my schedule over the next couple of weeks.

I'm so glad you have those to compare to... Because Neuhold/Karlsruhe is, i.m.o. "cheap", not "inexpensive". Not so much priceless at "$25,-, but worthless, given the superb competition at prices very nearly as low. Even the "Naxos" cycle (Zagrosek/Stuttgart) boasts far superior singing (and costs only $32 on the DVDs [highly questionable productions]). Clemens Krauss 1953 (recommended) runs only $35 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000E5KQL4?ie=UTF8&tag=nectarandambr-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000E5KQL4), ditto Furtwaengler's at La Scala (not actually recommended in part because of sound). Knappertsbusch 1956 (recommended) can be had for less than $40 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00004RCZL?ie=UTF8&tag=nectarandambr-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00004RCZL). In modern sound, with great singers (and singer-heavy), there's the "GDR-Ring" with Janowski (recommended, studio, RCA, $48 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00011MJV6?ie=UTF8&tag=nectarandambr-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00011MJV6)), that's also available for <$50. (Ditto the Kopenhagen DVD set, if you count that.)

Admittedly I wouldn't spend ~$60,- on Boulez (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000I8OFIM?ie=UTF8&tag=nectarandambr-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000I8OFIM) (CD only; the DVD set is a must-have (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/09/chreau-ring-cycle-making-of.html), though) or Levine (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000068QD8?ie=UTF8&tag=nectarandambr-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000068QD8), but just above $60 are Sawallisch (EMI, live, recommended (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00000631T?ie=UTF8&tag=nectarandambr-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00000631T)), Boehm (Philips, semi-live, top recommendation (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000025ESY?ie=UTF8&tag=nectarandambr-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000025ESY)), and Haitink (EMI, underrated (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00151HZ3S?ie=UTF8&tag=nectarandambr-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00151HZ3S)). Having searched for them only now, I am, admittedly, surprised that Sawallisch is still at above $60,- but then again, just four, five years ago, it was a tricky undertaking to get any quality RING for under $100.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: eyeresist on August 11, 2009, 02:35:42 AM
I guess I'll have the chance to make my own judgement soon :) I have the 5-disc EMI best-of the Haitink cycle, which certainly sounds very well (especially the anvils and screams in Rheingold), but is less than perfect vocal-wise, namely one Eva Marton.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on August 11, 2009, 02:58:18 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 11, 2009, 02:35:42 AM
I guess I'll have the chance to make my own judgement soon :) I have the 5-disc EMI best-of the Haitink cycle, which certainly sounds very well (especially the anvils and screams in Rheingold), but is less than perfect vocal-wise, namely one Eva Marton.

Yep, she does stand out like a sore thumb. That wouldn't happen if one took a cast of only sore thumbs.  ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Haffner on August 11, 2009, 07:05:49 AM
The Krauss '53 set features fantastic singing performances, and is overall one of the best Ring renditions ever, in my humble estimation. As you probably already know, it's mono sound (and not recorded particularly well), but it's good to have a mono rendition if you're diehard. The singing alone is well worth the measly price.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 11, 2009, 12:55:02 PM
I've always liked this humorous take on Wagner's Ring, "the only opera on earth that comes in a gigantic economy package":

Anna Russell (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv7G92F2sqs&feature=related). If you like it, check Youtube's parts 2, 3 and 4.

I don't know how to post Youtube clips, but that's the link, so off you go!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: duncan on August 12, 2009, 11:10:55 AM
Quote from: Anne on August 04, 2009, 10:18:21 PM
Did they need a new director or conductor?  What was needed to repair the problems?

I've had time to calm down and reflect a bit now ...

Overall, this was an embarrassing shambles that should never have been allowed on stage.  Some good individual performances couldn't disguise insulting lack of preparation and basic errors of stagecraft.

The concept, such as their was, of a universal mythology and the on-stage 'jelly babies' I could take or leave.  I've seen better and worse on opera stages.   Singing standards were very mixed, Olga Savova (Brunhilde in Walkure) pretty decent, Leonid Zakhozhaev (Siegfried in Siegfried) also quite acceptable, Olga Sergeyeva (Brunhilde in Siegfried) was so bad that I'd have been tempted to put her back to sleep, a wobbly shriek, caricature bad Wagner singing.  Larisa Gogolevskaya (Brunhilde number 3) woefully underpowered and almost lost it completely in the second act.   Acting was straight from the 1950s, some singers attempted an interpretation with varying degrees of success, others didn't bother.  There was almost no interaction between performers and absolutely no sense that there was any directorial hand at work, it was all up to the individual.  The prompter was intrusive throughout.  There were numerous technical cock-ups.  Brunhilde sauntered on half way through the third act of Valkyrie and lay down, in full view of the audience with seemingly no attempt made to disguise this.  Hagen didn't sing (forgot?) the final lines of the opera even though they appeared on the surtitles.  A fitting end.

It could have been much better if a real director had been given time to rehearse, the cycle was spread over the usual 6 days to give orchestra and singers time to recover between performances, which would have allowed a single (best) singer to take each role, allowing some continuity in performance.  I suspect Gergiev's ego wouldn't allow this.  
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: eyeresist on August 12, 2009, 08:22:06 PM
Okay, I've done a quick comparison between Solti and Neuhold Rheingold. The great disadvantage in Neuhold is the amazingly scrawny-sounding orchestra, which I think must be at least in part due to microphoning. Boosting the bass helps a bit, but they still sound thin whereas the singing sounds quite natural. Neuhold is also not nearly as energetic a conductor (though who is?), but supports the drama very well.

Singing: Solti's Rhine maidens had much more charm and Alberich a richer voice, but Neuhold's were acceptable. I think Neuhold had much better-sounding Fricka and Wotan (London was thin and gravelly and Flagstad just sounds much too old). Loge's were about equal, but Neuhold's did less shouting. Neuhold's Mime was decent but lacked intensity, and was vocally too similar to Loge for listening purposes. I don't remember much about the others, except Neuhold's Freia was frightful - fortunately it's a very small part. The same singer reappears as a Walkyrie in the second opera; don't know how that'll work out. As I'm not familiar with the libretto as yet, I won't venture further opinion on acting and characterisation.

So Neuhold won't be anyone's first choice, but for my purposes as cheap introduction to the last two operas, it will serve well enough.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on August 15, 2009, 01:37:05 PM
Here is something fairly extraordinary I have found:

http://music.barnesandnoble.com/Beyond-the-Ring-The-Best-of-Wagner/e/723721309855

Also available from the Amazon marketplace for £12.75!

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 17, 2009, 11:30:50 AM
Wow...it's been over three months since the last post in this thread  :o

This question probably won't revive it for long but I was curious if anyone else had pre-ordered the Thielemann Ring or plans to buy it when it's released.

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Valentino on November 17, 2009, 11:50:09 AM
No Sarge. I guess I'm fine with Solti, Keilberth (Testament), Karajan and Barenboim. Will probably get the Boulez on DVD someday, though.

Apart from that: Very interesting posts on the area where you live in that other thread. I found your throwing of that wedding band to the maidens quite fitting.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wendell_E on November 17, 2009, 01:04:13 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 17, 2009, 11:30:50 AM
This question probably won't revive it for long but I was curious if anyone else had pre-ordered the Thielemann Ring or plans to buy it when it's released.

Sarge

Lis has ordered it.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on November 17, 2009, 01:31:02 PM
Quote from: Valentino on November 17, 2009, 11:50:09 AM
No Sarge. I guess I'm fine with Solti, Keilberth (Testament), Karajan and Barenboim. Will probably get the Boulez on DVD someday, though.

Apart from that: Very interesting posts on the area where you live in that other thread. I found your throwing of that wedding band to the maidens quite fitting.

Do get the Chereau some day. It's maaaaaahhhhvelous.


some reading, if you are interested.

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/09/chreau-ring-cycle-making-of.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/09/chreau-ring-cycle-making-of.html)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/09/chreau-ring-cycle-das-rheingold.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/09/chreau-ring-cycle-das-rheingold.html)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/09/chreau-ring-cycle-die-walkre.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/09/chreau-ring-cycle-die-walkre.html)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/09/chreau-ring-cycle-gtterdmmerung.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/09/chreau-ring-cycle-gtterdmmerung.html)

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on November 17, 2009, 01:39:46 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 17, 2009, 11:30:50 AM
Wow...it's been over three months since the last post in this thread  :o

This question probably won't revive it for long but I was curious if anyone else had pre-ordered the Thielemann Ring or plans to buy it when it's released.

Sarge

I think release was postponed... no? but I had that Ring on CD (radio copies, don't tell) and in any case think it might be worth waiting for his next ring to appear. The one planned in Baden-Baden with the MPhil will probably be scrapped now, that they kicked him out in 2011... but there will be another one for sure, whether Dresden, Vienna, or Bayreuth. And while the conducting is phe-no-men-al, the singers add so little to the last incarnation that one reckons it can only get better. (But then I have never quite been a fan of whatshername... the blond American soprano. Linda Watson.)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Superhorn on November 17, 2009, 02:12:26 PM
  I haven't heard Gergiev conduct the Ring yet, but the Parsifal broadcast from the Met of Parsifal I heard a few years ago on WQXR was much,much better than the lackluster one you described. Maybe it was just an off night, which can happen with any one.
In fact, that Parsifal broadcast from the Met was terrific. I'd like to hear more of Gergiev's Wagner. I hope some of it will be released on CD and DVD. He may be erratic at times, but when he's at his best, his performances of whatever,not just Russian music, are unforgettable.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on November 17, 2009, 07:51:31 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 17, 2009, 11:30:50 AM
This question probably won't revive it for long but I was curious if anyone else had pre-ordered the Thielemann Ring or plans to buy it when it's released.

Sarge

Looks like it's already been released here in the States, and on BBC Legends of all labels. Which could mean a radio pick up. Any idea what the sound is like?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wanderer on November 17, 2009, 11:47:02 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 17, 2009, 11:30:50 AM
Wow...it's been over three months since the last post in this thread  :o

This question probably won't revive it for long but I was curious if anyone else had pre-ordered the Thielemann Ring or plans to buy it when it's released.

Sarge

I'd pre-ordered it and have been listening to it on and off for about a week, although regrettably not with the utmost attention. Thielemann's conducting is phenomenal as already mentioned (the main reason I purchased this), the singing being mostly average. Bayreuth's acoustic as captured sounds very pleasant and natural. Judging from the cover photos, it's just as well this production made it to CD rather than DVD/BD.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Valentino on November 18, 2009, 12:21:01 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 17, 2009, 01:31:02 PM
Do get the Chereau some day. It's maaaaaahhhhvelous.


some reading, if you are interested.

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/09/chreau-ring-cycle-making-of.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/09/chreau-ring-cycle-making-of.html)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/09/chreau-ring-cycle-das-rheingold.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/09/chreau-ring-cycle-das-rheingold.html)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/09/chreau-ring-cycle-die-walkre.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/09/chreau-ring-cycle-die-walkre.html)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/09/chreau-ring-cycle-gtterdmmerung.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/09/chreau-ring-cycle-gtterdmmerung.html)
Thanks for making me salivate.
;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 18, 2009, 04:02:32 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 17, 2009, 01:39:46 PM
I think release was postponed... no?

I don't know. JPC has a release date of 18 Nov...today. But they don't list it as being in stock. Amazon DE doesn't have it in stock either. A mystery then...unless you have some insider information, Jens.

Quote...in any case think it might be worth waiting for his next ring to appear

That might work for you but at my age that would be considered gambling  ;D


Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on November 17, 2009, 07:51:31 PM
Any idea what the sound is like?

No. And I'm not familiar with the label either: Opus Arte

Sarge


Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on November 18, 2009, 04:11:56 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 18, 2009, 04:02:32 AM
I don't know. JPC has a release date of 18 Nov...today. But they don't list it as being in stock. Amazon DE doesn't have it in stock either. A mystery then...unless you have some insider information, Jens.


I just very faintly remember receiving a press release about the delay of that release...  but now I can't find it, so I can't confirm, either.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 18, 2009, 04:02:32 AM
No. And I'm not familiar with the label either: Opus Arte

Sarge

Yes, you are. It's the Opus Arte you know from DVD releases. Since they are Bayreuth's partner in releasing their DVDs, they are also their partner now in releasing the CDs. (The first time they have done so.)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 18, 2009, 04:19:03 AM
Quote from: Valentino on November 17, 2009, 11:50:09 AM
Apart from that: Very interesting posts on the area where you live in that other thread. I found your throwing of that wedding band to the maidens quite fitting.

Well, I was young and romantic then, and completely in thrall of the Ring. That I actually lived in the historical area made it that much more significant. You know, though, the future Mrs. Rock thought I was crazy. Being of practical, no nonsense, northern German stock she thought I should have sold it for the money ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 18, 2009, 04:31:35 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 18, 2009, 04:11:56 AM
Yes, you are. It's the Opus Arte you know from DVD releases.

Ah...of course. I don't own any Opus Arte DVDs, though.

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Valentino on November 18, 2009, 07:49:20 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 18, 2009, 04:19:03 AM
northern German stock
I once had a girlfriend from similar stock, but ended up with one from Flagstad stock instead. Our youngest son is damn loud.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on November 18, 2009, 08:13:23 AM
Thielemann's Ring is available on Amazon US (http://www.amazon.com/Richard-Wagner-Ring-Nibelungen/dp/B002QEXC7G/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1258563642&sr=1-2) and is listed as in stock.

Ditto ArkivMusic. (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=310497) But why both sites mention the BBC I've yet to ascertain (typo?).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Drasko on November 18, 2009, 08:58:40 AM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on November 18, 2009, 08:13:23 AM
Ditto ArkivMusic. (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=310497) But why both sites mention the BBC I've yet to ascertain (typo?).

QuoteBBC Worldwide, Opus Arte sign £10 million deal

2003 LONDON: BBC Worldwide, the commercial consumer arm of the British Broadcasting Corporation, and Opus Arte, the Anglo-Dutch multimedia company and a leading player in the classical music, opera and ballet DVD market, have announced a new nine-year agreement for investment, production and distribution of classical music, dance and selected arts programming covering international TV, DVD and video sales.

To my knowledge only Glyndebourne and Covent Garden productions went under BBC Opus Arte moniker, but maybe they have incorporated further since.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wanderer on November 18, 2009, 10:30:32 AM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on November 18, 2009, 08:13:23 AM
Thielemann's Ring is available on Amazon US (http://www.amazon.com/Richard-Wagner-Ring-Nibelungen/dp/B002QEXC7G/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1258563642&sr=1-2) and is listed as in stock.

Ditto ArkivMusic. (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=310497) But why both sites mention the BBC I've yet to ascertain (typo?).

It's also available on Europadisc (http://www.europadisc.co.uk/classical/82144/Wagner_-_Der_Ring_des_Nibelungen.htm).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on November 21, 2009, 03:00:09 PM
Quote from: Valentino on November 17, 2009, 11:50:09 AM
No Sarge. I guess I'm fine with Solti, Keilberth (Testament), Karajan and Barenboim. Will probably get the Boulez on DVD someday, though.

Apart from that: Very interesting posts on the area where you live in that other thread. I found your throwing of that wedding band to the maidens quite fitting.

  Sorry Sarge  8) but me neither.  I am still saving money for my second Ring (the Karajan, your favorite  :)) But before I splurge on that I would like to pick up another Ring on DVD first, much like Valentino  8) the Boulez recording comes to mind.  That said I am very upset that the Seattle Opera house has not recorded and released it's 2005 Ring Cycle nor is planning to record it's 2009 Ring cycle  >:( >:(.  Thake a look at their website, they have some of the best Fafners I have ever seen.....<sigh> I guess I'll have to live with my Levine Ring on DVD and Solti on CD (I'll take that with me to the grave!!) until something better comes along!

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Coopmv on November 21, 2009, 05:25:30 PM
I received this Karajan's Wagner Parsifal last week but have yet to find the time to play it.  I have had the LP version when that was first released but now prefer the much cleaner sound on CD ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GRD5vbgpL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on November 21, 2009, 05:57:49 PM
Quote from: Drasko on November 18, 2009, 08:58:40 AM
To my knowledge only Glyndebourne and Covent Garden productions went under BBC Opus Arte moniker, but maybe they have incorporated further since.

Thanks,  Drasko.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on March 21, 2010, 11:59:58 AM
I will bump this thread with what I hope will feel like a gift.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oULtUTc-rME

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 21, 2010, 12:21:29 PM
Quote from: knight on March 21, 2010, 11:59:58 AM
I will bump this thread with what I hope will feel like a gift.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oULtUTc-rME (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oULtUTc-rME)

Mike


It is. Absolutely beautiful.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on March 21, 2010, 01:03:54 PM
Thanks, there are several first rate versions on Youtube, Kubelik and Kempe amongst them. But this was the first recording of the quintet I ever heard and it is many years since I heard it, not since I disposed of my LPs. So it was a lovely surprise to hear it. It was as affecting as I had remembered it.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on March 23, 2010, 03:12:22 PM
I thought this thread had been bumped, because Wolfgang Wagner has died.

For those of you who speak German, this might be of--albeit tangential--interest.

GMD Christian Thielmann zum Tod von Wolfgang Wagner:

Osaka (23.03.2010) ,,Mein Verhältnis zu Wolfgang Wagner war immer ein sehr persönliches.
Er war für mich ein väterlicher Freund und ich habe auf seinen Rat gehört. Ohne ihn würde ich
Wagner anders dirigieren. 2000 und 2001 durfte ich ,,Meistersinger" und 2002 ,,Parsifal" mit
Wolfgang Wagner als Regisseur dirigieren – seine beiden letzten Arbeiten.
Sein Tod geht mir sehr nahe. Wolfgang Wagner war für mich eine Symbolfigur für die
Opernwelt des 19. und 20. Jahrhunderts. Es ist wichtig, dass der familiäre Geist, die
besondere Atmosphäre, die er in Bayreuth geschaffen hat, aufrechterhalten werden kann.
Ich habe ihn sehr für seine Art bewundert, wie er mit Menschen umgegangen ist. Er hatte
immer ein offenes Ohr und nahm sich Zeit, für jedermann.
Im Moment bin ich mit den Münchner Philharmonikern auf Japantournee und wir haben die
Tannhäuser - Ouvertüre auf dem Programm. Als wir heute Nachmittag geprobt haben, war ich
sehr bewegt. In einer Schweigeminute haben wir an Wolfgang Wagner gedacht und sein
Lebenswerk gewürdigt. Er hinterlässt eine große Lücke.", so Christian Thiele
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on April 12, 2010, 03:13:14 AM
(http://www.hbdirect.com/coverm/67/1238267.jpg)


Reviewed, Not Necessarily Recommended: Tristan & Terrible

(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/04/reviewed-not-necessarily-recommended.html)


This Tristan had been out on Nuova Era, Walhall, and probably any
other label that specializes in opera recordings of sketchy provenance.
Now it is Myto's turn to entice us. The cast has always been so very
tempting to hear, but the sound was—and remains— excruciatingly
bad. It's one of those things you know should be great, somehow,
so you try again and again, the memory of disappointment soon giving
way again to the hopeful conviction that something so potentially
awesome should be better than it is.

If you've not heard the recording, or one of similar sound quality, here's
how to approximate the experience: ...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on April 12, 2010, 06:33:00 PM
Quote from: knight on March 21, 2010, 01:03:54 PM
Thanks, there are several first rate versions on Youtube, Kubelik and Kempe amongst them. But this was the first recording of the quintet I ever heard and it is many years since I heard it, not since I disposed of my LPs. So it was a lovely surprise to hear it. It was as affecting as I had remembered it.
This is the one that would tempt me were it reissued at a fair price:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gykYRGYaDbY&feature=related
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on April 12, 2010, 09:27:12 PM
David, I have that set and it is superb. I had not appreciated what a beautiful voice Thomas Stewart had until I heard this set. The second Karajan, Dresden, is also a glowingly affectionate set.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: mc ukrneal on April 19, 2010, 12:13:37 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 12, 2010, 06:33:00 PM
This is the one that would tempt me were it reissued at a fair price:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gykYRGYaDbY&feature=related

Not sure if this meets your criteria, but I recently ordered the Kubelik Meistersinger for somewhere around $42 from Moviemars (with free shipping in the US). This was significantly cheaper than anywhere else I could find (although you can find cheaper versions). And I just received it, so it was in stock. It is my first Meistersinger.

That excerpt was excellent! The entrance (and subsequent singing) of the first female part is shattering in its beauty. Beautiful quintet!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Walther von Stolzing on April 24, 2010, 12:43:09 PM
Can anyone tell me if the Kubelik's Parsifal released on the Arts Music label comes with a full libretto and English translation?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on April 24, 2010, 01:01:28 PM
Quote from: Walther von Stolzing on April 24, 2010, 12:43:09 PM
Can anyone tell me if the Kubelik's Parsifal released on the Arts Music label comes with a full libretto and English translation?

It does.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: BMW on May 26, 2010, 03:21:38 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00sjllw

This looks like it could be good ------- unfortunately we cannot watch it in the U.S.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Tsaraslondon on May 27, 2010, 01:15:33 AM
Quote from: BMW on May 26, 2010, 03:21:38 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00sjllw

This looks like it could be good ------- unfortunately we cannot watch it in the U.S.


As a traversal of one man's passion for a particular composer, this was an interesting documentary, and Stephen Fry is always entertaining and erudite, but we got frustratingly little of the music, and the snippets of rehearsal and performance at Bayreuth were mouth wateringly brief. More a programme for Fry fans than Wagner fans, I would say.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Renfield on May 27, 2010, 05:17:55 AM
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on May 27, 2010, 01:15:33 AM

As a traversal of one man's passion for a particular composer, this was an interesting documentary, and Stephen Fry is always entertaining and erudite, but we got frustratingly little of the music, and the snippets of rehearsal and performance at Bayreuth were mouth wateringly brief. More a programme for Fry fans than Wagner fans, I would say.

My impressions were also largely along those lines.

Having said that, though, the extremely brief 'interview' with Eva Wagner alone makes it worth watching. Fry asks her something along the lines of 'do you feel the weight of your responsibility as caretaker of the Wagner legacy?', to which she more or less flatly answers 'no'.

For some reason, it struck me as befitting of an echt-Wagnerian attitude!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on May 28, 2010, 10:10:11 AM
I like Fry, but he gushed like a love struck schoolgirl. The short chat with Frau Wagner was indeed curious. She affected to say the idea of her heritage being something she was caretaking was an eccentric question.

If it was an attempt to turn people onto Wagner and opera, the snippits of productions would probably just flat out puzzle people. Tristan in modern dress etc.

Mike

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bosniajenny on May 29, 2010, 12:12:40 AM
Quote from: BMW on May 26, 2010, 03:21:38 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00sjllw

This looks like it could be good ------- unfortunately we cannot watch it in the U.S.

Nor could I have, being in Sarajevo! It is infuriating that the BBC are unable/unwilling to broadcast anything on their non-commercial channels outside UK. I have been in correspondence with them about making iPlayer accessible abroad, and their answer was, effectively (wrapped up in a few words about rights issue) "Never".....
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on May 29, 2010, 01:05:37 AM
BBC services are paid for by the UK taxpayers by way of a compulsory subscription. I know that some of what it broadcasts is nevertheless freely made available abroad.

I don't really see why the world would expect all that it wants should be made available free; but it seems that they could open up the full internet services on a subscription basis. It may be possible the terms of their charter prevents this, but if that it the problem, it could be overcome.

It  often seems odd to me that I can watch a series 'free' on TV, but if I want DVDs of it, I might pay through the nose and while I have helped to finance the programmes, they sell them to other networks where people outside the country then enjoy them at possibly no cost to them.

I guess this is what we get when they act half as a public service broadcaster and half as a commercial company and no doubt profits from the latter are ploughed back into programmes, or lavish top brass BBC expenses.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: False_Dmitry on May 29, 2010, 03:57:31 AM
Quote from: bosniajenny on May 29, 2010, 12:12:40 AM
Nor could I have, being in Sarajevo! It is infuriating that the BBC are unable/unwilling to broadcast anything on their non-commercial channels outside UK. I have been in correspondence with them about making iPlayer accessible abroad, and their answer was, effectively (wrapped up in a few words about rights issue) "Never".....

Have a quick Google for "Watch British TV Abroad"  (hint-hint). 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Renfield on May 29, 2010, 04:13:17 AM
Quote from: False_Dmitry on May 29, 2010, 03:57:31 AM
Have a quick Google for "Watch British TV Abroad"  (hint-hint).

Good point! You should be able get access to the iPlayer via proxy.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on May 29, 2010, 04:34:21 AM
I protest! Gimme some of my subs back!

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Renfield on May 29, 2010, 04:38:33 AM
Quote from: knight on May 29, 2010, 04:34:21 AM
I protest! Gimme some of my subs back!

Mike

Tough luck. ;D Edit: Says I, before realising I'm also paying them.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on May 29, 2010, 05:06:34 AM
It's that False Dimitri guy, he will be having us hand out our hard earned money to the Greeks next.

Edit...sorry, of course, you don't do paid work.

Further edit....Also you are Greek!  8)

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Renfield on May 29, 2010, 05:15:06 AM
Quote from: knight on May 29, 2010, 05:06:34 AM
It's that False Dimitri guy, he will be having us hand out our hard earned money to the Greeks next.

Edit...sorry, of course, you don't do paid work.

Further edit....Also you are Greek!  8)

Mike

Indeed, I don't. Not yet. But I'd be more dismayed if that happened than most British-born people, believe me!

Giving money to Greece, that is, not doing paid work. :P
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on May 29, 2010, 05:20:11 AM
Ha, if we don't get it right here, we will be cap in hand to the Merkel Wagnerarians, (topic police duty there), but with little prospect of help and avoidance of the Gotterdammers.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Renfield on May 29, 2010, 05:30:47 AM
;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Coopmv on May 29, 2010, 11:58:11 AM
Quote from: Walther von Stolzing on April 24, 2010, 12:43:09 PM
Can anyone tell me if the Kubelik's Parsifal released on the Arts Music label comes with a full libretto and English translation?

This is an excellent set and the first opera I bought on CD going back 6-7 years ago.  I think the Karajan's version is very good too and I have that set on both LP and on CD.  I also have the older LP set by Boulez on DG and will probably get the CD version shortly for cleaner sound ...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: BMW on May 29, 2010, 11:14:17 PM
Quote from: BMW on May 26, 2010, 03:21:38 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00sjllw

This looks like it could be good ------- unfortunately we cannot watch it in the U.S.

And now we can (and have)!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2yoGgZQZS0

My own thoughts are similar to those already expressed.  Wish we could have gotten more of the music!  I do appreciate Fry's message, though, and the chat with Eva Wagner is priceless.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Guido on June 20, 2010, 05:11:37 AM
Now that Behrens is gone, I was just wondering who people considered were the best Isoldes and Brunhildes around today?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on June 20, 2010, 11:37:20 AM
Quote from: Guido on June 20, 2010, 05:11:37 AM
Now that Behrens is gone, I was just wondering who people considered were the best Isoldes and Brunhildes around today?

kampe & stemme, if and when they tackle the respective parts.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Walther von Stolzing on July 22, 2010, 08:22:57 AM
I am giving serious thought to purchasing the recording of Der fliegende Holländer conducted by Christoph von Dohnányi, featuring Robert Hale as the Dutchman and Hildegard Behrens as Senta.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41deF-56s9L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I've read a couple positive reviews on it, including the one on arkivmusic. Does anyone have experience with the set and thoughts on it before I take the plunge?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bhodges on July 25, 2010, 09:35:19 AM
Photos from the new Lohengrin at Bayreuth, via Intermezzo.  Perhaps not for the rodent-averse.  ;D

http://intermezzo.typepad.com/intermezzo/2010/07/let-there-be-swans-and-a-few-rats-first-pictures-of-new-bayreuth-lohengrin.html

--Bruce

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Guido on July 25, 2010, 10:10:08 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 20, 2010, 11:37:20 AM
kampe & stemme, if and when they tackle the respective parts.

I really like Stemme in the dramatic repertoire I've heard her sing, but find it bizarre that she considers herself a lyric-dramatic soprano - her Strauss CD contains the final scene of Capriccio, clearly a lyrical scene and she is just far too powerful and harsh for the role - the vibrato is very wide and there's a frenzied edge to her tone which is completely unsuited to this warmest of warm music. The Salome excerpt on the same disc is just great and partly for the same reason - that same unsettlingly intense edge is perfect for the character. This may be a very personal thing though!

On her wikipedia page it says she is "an opera singer renowned for her warm, solid spinto soprano voice, with some qualities of a dramatic soprano." I'm not sure anyone who's sung Brunhilde and Isolde on the stage can be called a spinto, but then I've never heard her sing live...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wendell_E on July 25, 2010, 11:29:03 AM
Quote from: bhodges on July 25, 2010, 09:35:19 AM
Photos from the new Lohengrin at Bayreuth, via Intermezzo.  Perhaps not for the rodent-averse.  ;D


Yeah, I'm listening to the prima (may Wagner forgive me for the Italian term) on the Internet.  Fortnately, it sounds a lot better than it looks.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on July 25, 2010, 11:47:45 AM
Quote from: Wendell_E on July 25, 2010, 11:29:03 AM
Yeah, I'm listening to the prima (may Wagner forgive me for the Italian term) on the Internet.  Fortnately, it sounds a lot better than it looks.

The rats are pretty cute, actually...  a good friend's sitting trough it, right now --- but I can't take Neuenfels. Not because of the rats, but because of the primitive underlying assumptions / ideologies.
The same, pseudo-progressive BS, decade after decade. His Medea in Corintho in Munich was the worst thing I ever had to endure, production wise.

Here, FYI, an interview with Neuenfels about this Lohengrin that I translated for the Society of Friends of Bayreuth. Written/conducted by the brilliant J. Koenigsdorf.
Quote
Addictive Truths
An encounter with director Hans Neuenfels


Half an hour into the interview, Hans Neuenfels can't take it anymore. A short, discretely disdainful look to the smoke detectors that keep tabs on air purity in the foyer of the Bavarian State Opera is followed by the brief flicker of his lighter and relief is at hand. He takes a drag from the cigarette that had lain before him all along, atop the pack with the ungainly warning label "Smoking Kills". His doctor told him not to smoke, just as he warned him off white wine. Because of the gout. Doctors, pshaw! If they had been consistent, they'd have forbidden him to direct, because theater is the real drug for this 68 year old. That's what he has been doing for about forty years now, one production after another. And of course opera is the strongest drug of them all. Often he's only got a quick breather for packing his bags before shuttling off from a premiere to the next round of rehearsals. This time he's off to Bayreuth as soon as the curtain falls on the premiere on Monday here in Munich. And if he finds a break, after all, Hans Neuenfels still devotes them to the stage business. Either by writing articles and essays – a surrogate drug – or by racking his brain over Verdi, Mozart, and Wagner. Such is the life of a theater addict. Compared to that, nicotine and alcohol are rather benign little helpers to make the madhouse 'Theater' appear a little more relaxed. All to foster the necessary optimism that the countless problems and altercations that pop up in every production will, somehow, work themselves out.

And of course it's an opera's fault this time, too, when Neuenfels has to ignore his doctors' advice. Specifcially, it is "Medea in Corinto" by Johann Simon Mayr, the teacher of Donizetti, with which Neuenfels makes his rather late debut at the Staatsoper. In a way, it's a 'postcoital' cigarette, because with the dress rehearsal over now, the real labor is all done with. But certainly the impending Bayreuth "Lohengrin" needs a bit of nicotine. In that week before the rehearsals begin, a production is in the most maddening phase.  Costumes and stage are all set, but will the conception – two years' worth of labor for Neuenfels and his team – work out on stage of the Festspielhaus? Will Neuenfels succeed in convincing choir, soloists, and conductor to not just carry out given instructions but champion the concept? And will the public accept the visual world he has concocted, chock full of metaphors? Will they be willingly to take the plunge with him?

It ain't certain. And not just because the international audience of the festival has a rather broader spectrum of expectations than hardened, veteran German audiences. Even the latter have already gotten plenty upset and excited about Neuenfels in the last decades. Probably no other living director has endured so many outbursts of indignation and thunderous salvos of boos as he has. Ever since his 1974 debut in Nürnberg with Verdi's "Il Trovatore" he's been labeled an ostentatious revolutionary and the bugbear of subscription audiences. That reputation as a brash Achtundsechziger, an antiauthoritarian political hippie, has stuck; he is considered as someone who simply throws convention out the window, along with all those lovely lavish costumes and pulpwood castles. He had tanks roll on stage when Verdi talks of war in "La Forza del Destino". He's put the choruses into animal costumes, and in his Berlin "Trovatore", Jesus gets back down from the cross in the finale of the second act, because only a miracle can help Leonora out of distress. But none of that was ever about provocation per se, he says. True provocation would have to be gratuitous. But since he is inexorably compelled by the work at hand to present the pictures and scenes he shows, his productions couldn't possibly be about provocation.

"After a certain point I, the director, become the prisoner of my own production and can't but continue further down the initially chosen path", he explains. "The quality of a production, after all, lies in it taking a development of its own, virtually dictating the solutions for the stage. Once the work 'bites', once you have it on a hook, then you can add things at will. But from then on it's really more the art of cooking than the art of directing."

Hans Neuenfels  calls that situation his 'creative dilemma' and he has once again fallen into it: That gravitational pull exerted by all great works, once you feel like you've gotten a glimpse of their core truths and those truths further dictate you where to go with the work.

I readily believe him that he specifically wanted "Lohengrin" for his Bayreuth debut – for the reason alone that the idea of utopia – dashed hopes – are at the core of his life's work. Not particularly surprisingly that it is Heinrich von Kleist who is his favorite among the classics; this failure of a man, his earthly existence 'beyond help', and someone who consequently clung even more tightly to his ideals. After all, what would Neuenfels' ceaseless scrutinizing be good for, if not for the hope that somewhere there must be a truth to which one can hold on.

"I believe in values like love, tenderness, friendship. That's how I see life. And I believe that it is worth it to invoke these truths over and over and that it's worth fighting for these ideals." Maybe his theater addiction also stems from the fact that these truths usually make only fleeting appearances on stage and pass quickly as a nicotine buzz.

"Lohengrin" is only Neuenfels' third Wagner production after his Stuttgart "Meistersinger" in 1994 and a "Tannhäuser" in Essen, two years ago. His longing for the south, especially Verdi, has long kept him from Wagner. As did his unease with these 'august Germans', that touch of the disreputable that still sticks to these works – at least and especially as far as Germans of his generation are concerned. And of course Lohengrin won't be the knight in shining armor with Neuenfels; that radiant hero that not just Elsa but perhaps also the audience expects. "For me, Lohengrin's mission is the last attempt to save the world. And the tragedy of the work lies in the mission turning out to be bigger than the hero; just like in the Heinrich von Kleist play "The Prince of Homburg". Nowadays we tend to making people bigger than the thing itself, just like with Superman, who in a way doesn't even seem to care who or what he saves. In that sense, Lohengrin is really more of an anti-hero. In the end he is doubly disappointed because both, his love and his mission, have failed. I like that figure, because he's distinctly human to me, but even he hasn't got a shot against the powers of reality."

Hans Neuenfels is still an idealist, even after 36 years in the opera business. And though his brash animal metaphors can be misleading at first appearance, he is miles away from the ostentatiously ironic, happy-go-lucky opera productions... just as he doesn't subscribe to the breathlessly up-to-date productions that reduce the greater meaning of an opera to a boardroom or a military camp. Without fairy tale-like dimensions, he insists, Wagner's Musiktheater is deprived of an important dimension. And his understanding of fidelity to the work's intent means he tries to get as close as possible to the grandeur of Wagner's blueprint. That, he says, is the main duty of a production: to probe the musical concept and its radical original aspirations anew every time.

"And if it be considered conservative to believe in the ability of theater to communicate these ideals, then I suppose I am in fact a conservative" he concedes. And looks very much like he needs another cigarette just about now.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DarkAngel on August 09, 2010, 12:16:59 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51LxT7xNhwL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B002TZS56K/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=5174&s=music)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61K4VEV6PEL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Bargain alert..........
This 1963 Meistersinger with Hotter/Keilberth partnership has been reissued in a bargain box for $15 at Amazon USA, very pricey on used market

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DarkAngel on August 09, 2010, 12:20:51 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41M5WXHJHPL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51uxxuJrtDL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B000FVHGZG/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=5174&s=music)
Also puchased these two Knappertsbusch sets, the 1956 Ring is only $39 new at Amazon USA.........
Any comments on these?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on August 09, 2010, 01:15:06 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on August 09, 2010, 12:20:51 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41M5WXHJHPL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51uxxuJrtDL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B000FVHGZG/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=5174&s=music)
Also puchased these two Knappertsbusch sets, the 1956 Ring is only $39 new at Amazon USA.........
Any comments on these?

the Kna' Meistersinger has always been a great bargain... and it's a very good recording.

The '56 Kna' Ring is solid... the Philips/Decca Kna' Parsifal legendary. Great stuff.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on August 26, 2010, 01:53:42 PM
Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on April 12, 2007, 03:38:20 PM
Big Wagner fan here.

I also discovered him when I was a teenager.

I'm travelling to Wellington in September to hear the NZSO perfrom a concert of Wagner Overtures/Preludes. We're literally planning a holiday around a Wagner concert  ;)

Three years on and I've outdone myself  ;D

Attended Die Walkure in San Francisco this year which was one of the best musical/threatrical performances I've experienced.

So much so that I've booked for the complete Ring Cycle in SF next year  :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: zamyrabyrd on September 01, 2010, 09:06:12 PM
Has anyone seen the film of Lohengrin, 2006, Baden-Baden? I just viewed it and decided that Klaus Florian Vogt is my prince!! His unflappable, unblinking total control in the etherial Wagnerian tessitura is quite astounding.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcSq3R6PzOg

I have a little problem with seeing this opera in modern dress, though. Lohengrin himself seated at a grand piano kind of strains credibility.

One can just imagine what it was like back in 1850 when Franz Liszt first conducted the opera.

ZB
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on September 02, 2010, 12:59:31 AM
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on September 01, 2010, 09:06:12 PM
Has anyone seen the film of Lohengrin, 2006, Baden-Baden?

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/03/klaus-florian-vogts-splendor-lohengrin.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/03/klaus-florian-vogts-splendor-lohengrin.html)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on September 02, 2010, 06:43:37 AM
I was just thinking, in a perfect world, Angelina Jolie would have Waltraud Meier's voice and could sing Venus in Tannhauser.  The Sharon Stone Kundry would also be essential.  Now who to sing Salome, but that's another thread...

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 02, 2010, 08:32:11 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on September 02, 2010, 06:43:37 AM
Now who to sing Salome, but that's another thread...

You need a girl in early adolescence, Jewish, and cute enough to tempt Herod. How about Natalie Portman, circa Beautiful Girls, with Birgit Nilsson's voice?  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brahmsian on September 02, 2010, 08:33:33 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 02, 2010, 08:32:11 AM
You need a girl in early adolescence, Jewish, and cute enough to tempt Herod. How about Natalie Portman, circa Beautiful Girls, with Birgit Nilsson's voice?  ;D

Sarge

Sarge, we have a winner.  Check the Salome thread!  :D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on September 02, 2010, 09:17:54 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 02, 2010, 08:32:11 AM
You need a girl in early adolescence, Jewish, and cute enough to tempt Herod. How about Natalie Portman, circa Beautiful Girls, with Birgit Nilsson's voice?  ;D
Too young and not up to the temptress role.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on September 02, 2010, 02:12:26 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 02, 2010, 09:17:54 AM
Too young and not up to the temptress role.

curmudgeon. i'll see you resist that before i believe it.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on September 02, 2010, 03:26:03 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 02, 2010, 02:12:26 PM
curmudgeon. i'll see you resist that before i believe it.
Come on--she was 14, built like a boy, and with a voice like Birgit Nilsson would have wilted an iron bar.

Someone like Estella Warren would be far more believable (and hard to resist!) as a young temptress:
(http://www.celebrity-images.hilaryshepherd.com/data/media/167/Estella%20Warren%2021.jpg)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on September 12, 2010, 12:54:18 PM
On another thread we had discussion around the virtues of the singer Gertrude Grob-Prandl. It was a name and voice that was new to me. Having been pointed to some tracks on Youtube, I really needed to get hold of some of her discs.

As well as a mixed recital, I bought a full live Tristan from Vienna in 1956. The excerpt on Youtube promised much.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDrIe2Xpqwk

So far I have managed two acts. I am not sure if I will bother with act three.

There are two flies in the ointment, one is the Tristan, the other is Cluytens. This is a speed merchant's interpretation. Very little by way of lingering and in comparison to say Furtwangler's transfixing way with the end of Act 1 or Kleiber's narcotic act 2, it is pedestrian. The sheer speed can emulate energy and this works well in the excerpt I have linked.

There you get the sound picture, a bit boxy, the orchestra sounds uningratiating. But overall Act 1 is fairly successful and the remarkable gifts of Grob-Prandl are well displayed. The Tristan is Rudolf Lustig. Initially I thought he was going to be an asset, healthy voice, a bit loud, but fairly satisfactory in Act 1.

Act 2 is rushed, so there is no sense of 'night', but the real problems here are that the singers are simply not given time to get round the phrasing, which becomes approximate and unfocused. Add to this exceptionally insensitive hollering by Tristan and there is not much there to attract one. It is cut, which is a distinct plus here.

I can't think that Act 3 will be other than a trial with this tenor and with the conductor seemingly intent on getting to the pub before it closes. No doubt I will get to hear it, but no time soon. I have never rated Cluytens very highly and this confirmed me in my opinion that having his enjoyable EMI Faust will probably 'do' me.

However, frankly, the entire Walhall issue is worth the budget price for the soprano singing in Act 1, it it a warm clarion voice, she does phrase well and does not utilise her astonishing volume to the detriment of the music. Unlike the tenor, she does sing to the marks and she provides a memorable and exciting experience.

Mike

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: AndyD. on September 12, 2010, 01:04:06 PM
I mentioned to Mike in PMs that, there are so many great first Acts of Tristan und Isolde (perhaps enough to start a whole 'nother thread). It's almost like that first act seems to inspire performers the most. Maybe because it's so hyperbolic, so typically Wagnerian. I don't know.

I do know that a Tristan und Isolde with a flubbed 2nd act is usually fatally flawed. Granted, the 2nd and 3rd acts are easily the hardest to perform, particularly the 3rd for the tenor and the second overall.

Still, being the Wagnerophile, I'll still step all over people to listen to the 1st act of this performance ;D!!!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on September 12, 2010, 01:19:22 PM
Listening now to the Zagrosek/Naxos Walkure.  Only real flaw is the Brunnhilde (Renate Behle) who gets screechy a little too often, especially in the final scene (similar flaw in the Brunnhilde of the Halle Gotterdammerung, also a live recording). There is stage noise, but no audience noise except applause at the end of the acts. 

Meanwhile, I noticed this is set to be released October 19
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513QxuC9o2L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Coopmv on September 12, 2010, 01:20:08 PM
Quote from: AndyD. on September 12, 2010, 01:04:06 PM
I mentioned to Mike in PMs that, there are so many great first Acts of Tristan und Isolde (perhaps enough to start a whole 'nother thread). It's almost like that first act seems to inspire performers the most. Maybe because it's so hyperbolic, so typically Wagnerian. I don't know.

I do know that a Tristan und Isolde with a flubbed 2nd act is usually fatally flawed. Granted, the 2nd and 3rd acts are easily the hardest to perform, particularly the 3rd for the tenor and the second overall.

Still, being the Wagnerophile, I'll still step all over people to listen to the 1st act of this performance ;D!!!

I have an excellent recording here, though in the politically incorrect format which I rarely play ...

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on September 12, 2010, 01:24:12 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on September 12, 2010, 01:20:08 PM
I have an excellent recording here, though in the politically incorrect format which I rarely play ...

Politically incorrect how?  I have the cheapie Brilliant issue.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Coopmv on September 12, 2010, 01:32:40 PM
Quote from: kishnevi on September 12, 2010, 01:24:12 PM
Politically incorrect how?  I have the cheapie Brilliant issue.

You can almost count on one hand the number of forum members who listen to LP on a regular basis ...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on September 12, 2010, 01:37:35 PM
So not politically incorrect, just de trop.

I have the Furtwangler and as Andy suggests, Act 1 is particularly strong. I know of no other conductor who injects that amount of tension and stillness, stasis really, into the scene where T&I drink the potion.

His opening to Act two is also magical, evoking darkness, mystery and a kind of fever.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: AndyD. on September 12, 2010, 01:40:07 PM
Quote from: kishnevi on September 12, 2010, 01:19:22 PM
Meanwhile, I noticed this is set to be released October 19
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513QxuC9o2L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


OO (http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i97/Apostate_2006/eusa_drool.gif).


Quote from: Coopmv on September 12, 2010, 01:20:08 PM
I have an excellent recording here, though in the politically incorrect format which I rarely play ...



That Furtwangler is excellent, in my opinion. The Krauss is great for an old recording as well.

Quote from: knight on September 12, 2010, 01:37:35 PM
So not politically incorrect, just de trop.

I have the Furtwangler and as Andy suggests, Act 1 is particularly strong. I know of no other conductor who injects that amount of tension and stillness, stasis really, into the scene where T&I drink the potion.

His opening to Act two is also magical, evoking darkness, mystery and a kind of fever.

Mike

He said it! The 1st act of the Furtwangler is SO great, I am really considering spinning it tonight (it's my birthday).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on September 12, 2010, 01:41:42 PM
A happy birthday. But perhaps Act 2 would be better and leave Act 3 for another day.  8) :o

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on September 12, 2010, 06:32:53 PM
Quote from: knight on September 12, 2010, 01:41:42 PM
A happy birthday. But perhaps Act 2 would be better and leave Act 3 for another day.  8) :o

Mike

And don't forget Siegfried Idyll to round it off.

Happy B-day!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: AndyD. on September 13, 2010, 08:08:55 AM
Quote from: knight on September 12, 2010, 01:41:42 PM
A happy birthday. But perhaps Act 2 would be better and leave Act 3 for another day.  8) :o

Mike

I went and played 1, 2 and half of act 3. I'll finish it later today, I'm so busy admiring the Takacs Bartok.

Quote from: kishnevi on September 12, 2010, 06:32:53 PM
And don't forget Siegfried Idyll to round it off.

Happy B-day!

Thanks to you and Mike! I had gourmet bacon cheeseburgers with steak mushrooms, homemade mashed potatoes, and fudge brownie Ben and Jerry's ice cream! Plus, George turned me on to the above mentioned Bartok.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on October 22, 2010, 08:49:46 AM
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_fvqDJniJWuw/TLSJmHWCjqI/AAAAAAAABRc/L6ExSQh5jtw/s400/bill_viola_tristan.png)

Dortmund. Wagner - Bill Viola, Tristan & Isolde, Esa-Pekka Salonen / Philharmonia Orchestra
(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/10/15-16-17-18_22.html)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brian on October 24, 2010, 12:21:32 PM
I am considering a November jaunt to Sevilla for a few days, during "reading week," and my interest got even greater when I noticed that Sevilla's classical concert hall will be playing host to, shall we say, an extremely unusual operatic event...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 24, 2010, 12:25:21 PM
Quote from: Brian on October 24, 2010, 12:21:32 PM
I am considering a November jaunt to Sevilla for a few days, during "reading week," and my interest got even greater when I noticed that Sevilla's classical concert hall will be playing host to, shall we say, an extremely unusual operatic event...

Strauss's Rheingold....this I have to hear  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on October 24, 2010, 01:27:08 PM
I once saw a Prague Festival announcement of Britten's 'The Screw of Lucretia'

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on October 25, 2010, 01:55:52 PM
Quote from: AndyD. on September 13, 2010, 08:08:55 AM
Thanks to you and Mike! I had gourmet bacon cheeseburgers with steak mushrooms, homemade mashed potatoes, and fudge brownie Ben and Jerry's ice cream!

Wont the bun get soggy when that ice cream starts melting?

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: AndyD. on October 25, 2010, 02:53:23 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 25, 2010, 01:55:52 PM
Wont the bun get soggy when that ice cream starts melting?

;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 26, 2010, 12:28:32 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 25, 2010, 01:55:52 PM
Wont the bun get soggy when that ice cream starts melting?
No wonder Alberich was so ticked off all the time!  :o
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: AndyD. on October 26, 2010, 03:09:11 AM
Quote from: ukrneal on October 26, 2010, 12:28:32 AM
No wonder Alberich was so ticked off all the time!  :o


Ample proof that soggy buns can lead to a life of thievery.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on October 26, 2010, 09:18:01 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on October 26, 2010, 03:09:11 AM

Ample proof that soggy buns can lead to a life of thievery.

You are after all merely paraphrasing Nietzsche with that thought.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: AndyD. on October 26, 2010, 10:09:53 AM
Quote from: knight on October 26, 2010, 09:18:01 AM
You are after all merely paraphrasing Nietzsche with that thought.

Mike

I hoped somebody would see that.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 11, 2010, 05:31:51 AM
We saw Das Rheingold last Friday, using the combined resources of Ludwigshafen and Halle. The orchestra was our own Staatsphilharmonie Rheinland-Pfalz and the singers from Oper Halle.

It was a proper Eurotrash production. The Rhine maidens were lipstick lesbians (lots of hot lesbo action to tease Alberich):

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/oct2010/Ring04.jpg)

Erda was, for reasons that elude me, a prostitute dressed in lingerie and boots.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/oct2010/Ring03.jpg)

The gods wore 30s style suits; Fricka and Freia were likewise costumed from the 30s, with Frieia wearing Krankenschwester headgear (that makes sense: she does keep the gods healthy).

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/oct2010/Ring06.jpg)

The Nibelungen were depicted with video projection or, when they deliver the gold to Wotan, by a gang of children dressed in black. Alberich was appropriately sleazy, with long hair and no shirt under his suit jacket, and an obvious shoe fetish. He finds a high heel belonging to one of the girls, sniffs it, and becames inflamed with lust. Here he is, stealing the gold after he's spurned.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/oct2010/Ring09.jpg)

There was real water depicting the Rhine--lots of splashing around by the girls, and Alberich was completely soaked when he's pushed in. There was also real fire--quite startling at first: it ranged across the full width of the stage, the flames much higher than in the pic below (Loge had just snapped his fingers to dose the fire). We were in row five and could feel the heat! Fricka, Wotan, Donner and Froh in the pic, plus one of the kids who carried the giants' standards.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/oct2010/Ring01.jpg)

The giants were dressed like German journeymen "auf der Walz" (at least that's how they appeared to Mrs. Rock and me). Fafner to the left, Freia and Fasolt:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/oct2010/Ring02.jpg)

Donner had no hammer. Instead, when Wotan asks him to clear the sky, he lifted a grate, which triggered a fan that made it appear the wind had kicked up. Instead of a hammerblow, he slams the grate shut--effective sonically but not what Wagner asked for obviously. (He did ask for the lipstick lesbians...I'm pretty sure he did. If not, he should have  ;D )

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/oct2010/Ring05.jpg)

The right side of the stage was dominated by a huge black wall made up of numerous numbered boxes. We're unsure what that was supposed to represent. When Fasolt is murdered, the kids take off his shoes and put them in one of the boxes. Huh? Is it heaven? Is this where "soles" rest after death?  ;D

Karl-Heinz Steffens conducted a well-paced performance. The orchestra played well, the climactic moments all one could wish for (although the horns sounded a bit tired at the end after two and a half hours without a break). Alberich had the most impressive voice among the men: the girls were really good (and good looking: slender, youthful). The acting was natural, not stilted. The first scene was very sexy, very funny, very moving too. I felt sorry for poor old Alberich. The final moments, the gods' ascent to Valhalla, was a disappointment, though: visually an anti-climax, the gods ascending on scaffolding like window washers, and no depiction of the fortress. But despite that I enjoyed the production in general. Being so close to the stage (in a relatively small theater) was interesting too; the voices clear and immediate, the orchestra (buried underneath the stage like at Bayreuth) never overwhelming the singers.

Walküre will be given next fall, with Siegfried and Götterdämmerung to follow in the spring of 2012.

Sarge

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 11, 2010, 05:42:08 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 11, 2010, 05:31:51 AM
We saw Das Rheingold last Friday, using the combined resources of Ludwigshafen and Halle. The orchestra was our own Staatsphilharmonie Rheinland-Pfalz and the singers from Oper Halle.

Sarge
Sounds like a lot of fun! Glad to hear you enjoyed it and thanks for all the pictures! I do hate it when you can't figure out some part of the imagery/scenery/symbolism during the performance. I spend too much time trying to figure it out instead of watching the action.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Guido on November 11, 2010, 05:53:59 AM
People always feel they have to do something to Wagner.  That said most "traditional" productions are also fairly terrible. Why do people think that minimal acting talent and virtually complete staticism will make for a more moving experience? I've almost given up seeing a production as beautiful as I imagine. Which are peoples all time favourite productions? Any really great ones on DVD?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Superhorn on November 11, 2010, 07:36:21 AM
   The best costumes in a Wagner production of all time were for the Rhinemaidens in the 1983
Ring at Bayreuth, where Solti conducted there for the first and only time- the girls were stark naked !
Cool !



;D                        ;D                              ;D


                              ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on November 11, 2010, 07:49:38 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 11, 2010, 05:31:51 AM

It was a proper Eurotrash production. The Rhine maidens were lipstick lesbians (lots of hot lesbo action to tease Alberich):

Erda was, for reasons that elude me, a prostitute dressed in lingerie and boots.


Sarge

If it's a truly proper Eurotrash production, the reasons will always elude you.  Indeed, in a trulygreat Eurotrash production, nothing will make any sense at all. 

Thanks for the pictures and report.  Eurotrash or not, it sounds like a production worth seeing.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: AndyD. on November 11, 2010, 08:10:08 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on November 11, 2010, 07:49:38 AM
If it's a truly proper Eurotrash production, the reasons will always elude you.  Indeed, in a trulygreat Eurotrash production, nothing will make any sense at all. 

Thanks for the pictures and report.  Eurotrash or not, it sounds like a production worth seeing.


Or at least hearing. I'm way more into traditional staging, except for the classic Boulez/Chereux.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on November 11, 2010, 08:20:24 AM
I don't think a satisfactory staging of the Ring is really possible.  My favorite among the ones I have seen is the Levine DVD.  In the end, you have to use you imagination, I think.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 11, 2010, 08:28:42 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 11, 2010, 08:20:24 AM
I don't think a satisfactory staging of the Ring is really possible...In the end, you have to use you imagination, I think.

I agree. Even Wagner hated the first scene staging at the first performance of Rheingold. It's difficult, even with modern technology, to realize the concept. That's why I prefer CDs to DVDs: it looks better in my head 8)  But the dramas really are worth hearing live. No matter the production, the music is indestructible.

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: AndyD. on November 11, 2010, 08:59:20 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 11, 2010, 08:28:42 AM
I agree. Even Wagner hated the first scene staging at the first performance of Rheingold. It's difficult, even with modern technology, to realize the concept. That's why I prefer CDs to DVDs: it looks better in my head 8)  But the dramas really are worth hearing live. No matter the production, the music is indestructible.

Sarge


I completely agree with this.

I still am holding out for a big budget 3-d animated Ring.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on November 11, 2010, 09:06:27 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on November 11, 2010, 08:59:20 AMI still am holding out for a big budget 3-d animated Ring.

That will never happen, I'm afraid.  A log-budget animated Ring might be possible, something along the lines of the animated "Cunning Little Vixen" done by the BBC.  On the other hand, maybe it is better if it never happens.  I'm afraid it would end up coming out like one of those idiotic Japanese animated TV shows.

 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: AndyD. on November 11, 2010, 09:08:46 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 11, 2010, 09:06:27 AM
That will never happen, I'm afraid.  A log-budget animated Ring might be possible, something along the lines of the animated "Cunning Little Vixen" done by the BBC.  On the other hand, maybe it is better if it never happens.  I'm afraid it would end up coming out like one of those idiotic Japanese animated TV shows.



Oh no, I would hate a Japanese anime thing. I mean with better than Beowulf graphics. And, all respect intended, never say never, especially for something as prime for animation as the Ring. If I had the cash, I'd be hiring the animators this very second.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on November 11, 2010, 09:11:46 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on November 11, 2010, 09:08:46 AM
Oh no, I would hate a Japanese anime thing. I mean with better than Beowulf graphics. And, all respect intended, never say never, especially for something as prime for animation as the Ring. If I had the cash, I'd be hiring the animators this very second.

Actually, what would work is an "open-source" animated ring.  Someone has to create the characters and design the animation to correspond to one of the available recordings, then people volunteer their computers to run the ray tracing in background on their computers.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: AndyD. on November 11, 2010, 09:13:16 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 11, 2010, 09:11:46 AM
Actually, what would work is an "open-source" animated ring.  Someone has to create the characters and design the animation to correspond to one of the available recordings, then people volunteer their computers to run the ray tracing in background on their computers.


Now that's a really cool idea. Maybe the Solti Siegfried and Gotterdammerung, the Karajan Rheingold, etc?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on November 11, 2010, 09:15:17 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on November 11, 2010, 09:13:16 AM

Now that's a really cool idea. Maybe the Solti Siegfried and Gotterdammerung, the Karajan Rheingold, etc?

It requires the right lunatic to organize it.  Are you that lunatic?    ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: AndyD. on November 11, 2010, 09:29:49 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 11, 2010, 09:15:17 AM
It requires the right lunatic to organize it.  Are you that lunatic?    ;D


I am, now I just need to be the right rich lunatic.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on November 11, 2010, 09:31:51 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on November 11, 2010, 09:29:49 AM
I am, now I just need to be the right rich lunatic.

My point is you could do it for free of you could harness the power of nerdy Wagner fanatics.   0:)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: AndyD. on November 11, 2010, 09:36:56 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 11, 2010, 09:31:51 AM
My point is you could do it for free of you could harness the power of nerdy Wagner fanatics.   0:)

I do have a few acquaintances at the international Wagner Societies. Not sure how seriously they'll take me because I play that dis-gus-ting rock n roll. But you have me thinking...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: mamascarlatti on November 11, 2010, 09:37:09 AM
It's been done:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0S529AyJ0ZA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0S529AyJ0ZA)

Not as good as Lego Tosca though.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on November 11, 2010, 09:42:16 AM
Finally, Wagner as it was meant to be experienced.   ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on November 22, 2010, 06:43:14 AM


  OH WHY? WHY? WHY? Won't the Seattle opera house release this in HD for all Wagnerians to enjoy!  :-[ :-[  >:(

   Watch the preview and tell me, isn't that the FAFNER TO DIE FOR??

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqSbFZLVLkA&playnext=1&list=PLFBEB91051235353F&index=17 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqSbFZLVLkA&playnext=1&list=PLFBEB91051235353F&index=17)

  I would love to see this, until then I guess I am just going to have to live with the Levine Ring, and that Octupus looking dragon  :(!

  marvin

 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: AndyD. on November 22, 2010, 08:46:14 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on November 22, 2010, 06:43:14 AM

  OH WHY? WHY? WHY? Won't the Seattle opera house release this in HD for all Wagnerians to enjoy!  :-[ :-[  >:(

   Watch the preview and tell me, isn't that the FAFNER TO DIE FOR??

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqSbFZLVLkA&playnext=1&list=PLFBEB91051235353F&index=17 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqSbFZLVLkA&playnext=1&list=PLFBEB91051235353F&index=17)

  I would love to see this, until then I guess I am just going to have to live with the Levine Ring, and that Octupus looking dragon  :(!

  marvin




I would definitely grab it on dvd.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 23, 2010, 03:53:45 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on November 22, 2010, 06:43:14 AM
Watch the preview and tell me, isn't that the FAFNER TO DIE FOR??

Yeah, nice dragon. Unfortunately Siegfried looks like our portly village butcher. And he's more concerned with keeping his footing than battling and dispatching Fafner. Really lame use of the sword. Those blows wouldn't have crushed a fly  :D

By the way, I was scheduled to see that Seattle Ring. It had been in the planning stage for several years. I was going to meet two West Coast friends and fellow Wagnerians (a judge from L.A. and a guy who works for Boeing in Seattle). Unfortunately two of us became ill and couldn't attend.

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brahmsian on November 23, 2010, 05:33:38 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 23, 2010, 03:53:45 AM
Yeah, nice dragon. Unfortunately Siegfried looks like our portly village butcher. And he's more concerned with keeping his footing than battling and dispatching Fafner. Really lame use of the sword. Those blows wouldn't have crushed a fly  :D


Sarge

I agree, nice dragon!  However, it looked like Siegfried was trying to pick something out of Fafner's teeth, like a toothpick.  :D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 23, 2010, 05:50:15 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on November 23, 2010, 05:33:38 AM
I agree, nice dragon!  However, it looked like Siegfried was trying to pick something out of Fafner's teeth, like a toothpick.  :D

Yes, Siegfried just wanted to perform some much needed oral hygiene on the poor beast but Fafner misunderstood....with tragic consequences  :'(

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kaergaard on November 24, 2010, 06:34:41 AM
Speight Jenkins reportedly stated that none of the Seattle Opera performances will ever be available on Video. So far it's been true.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on November 29, 2010, 02:42:16 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 23, 2010, 03:53:45 AM
Yeah, nice dragon. Unfortunately Siegfried looks like our portly village butcher. And he's more concerned with keeping his footing than battling and dispatching Fafner. Really lame use of the sword. Those blows wouldn't have crushed a fly  :D

By the way, I was scheduled to see that Seattle Ring. It had been in the planning stage for several years. I was going to meet two West Coast friends and fellow Wagnerians (a judge from L.A. and a guy who works for Boeing in Seattle). Unfortunately two of us became ill and couldn't attend.

Sarge
Hello Sarge!  Sorry to hear of your missed opportunity to see this Seattle Ring production.  I hope you weren't one of the two that fell ill?  Unfortunately Seattle is a long way away for me here in London. It seems that the director of the Seattle opera house, from the interviews that I have seen wants to make the Ring the speciality of the Opera house there.  I am expecting many great productions in the future from that opera house.  Maybe someday you will have the opportunity to attend a performance there on behalf of all of us European Wagnerians! Either way I still think that it is unfair not to release this on DVD!  There is only one traditional Ring production out there and that is the MET!  I would like to see more.

  PS: Perhaps the MET's  Siegfried Jerusalem makes a more appropriate Siegfried (no pun intended here!) but that lavish production from the Seattle is a feast for the eyes!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on November 29, 2010, 10:17:06 AM
Marvin--the Met's current production of the Ring is being broadcast live in HD to cinemas all over the world.  The Rhinegold was excellent and we expect nothing less from the rest.  Here is the list of UK participants http://www.metoperafamily.org/metopera/broadcast/countries/hd_events.aspx?id=3313

and here is the Met's HD broadcast home page http://www.metoperafamily.org/metopera/broadcast/hd_events_template.aspx?id=11964
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brahmsian on November 29, 2010, 11:01:08 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on November 29, 2010, 10:17:06 AM
Marvin--the Met's current production of the Ring is being broadcast live in HD to cinemas all over the world.  The Rhinegold was excellent and we expect nothing less from the rest.  Here is the list of UK participants http://www.metoperafamily.org/metopera/broadcast/countries/hd_events.aspx?id=3313


If I hadn't won tickets to see the Moscow Ballet, I would be going to see Rhinegold at the theatre tonight.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on November 30, 2010, 11:17:49 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on November 29, 2010, 10:17:06 AM
Marvin--the Met's current production of the Ring is being broadcast live in HD to cinemas all over the world.  The Rhinegold was excellent and we expect nothing less from the rest.  Here is the list of UK participants http://www.metoperafamily.org/metopera/broadcast/countries/hd_events.aspx?id=3313

and here is the Met's HD broadcast home page http://www.metoperafamily.org/metopera/broadcast/hd_events_template.aspx?id=11964

   Thank you David for the links  :)!  I might have missed Das Reingold and Walkure will not be broadcast till next spring/summer  :'(


marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on November 30, 2010, 11:22:00 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on November 29, 2010, 10:17:06 AM
Marvin--the Met's current production of the Ring is being broadcast live in HD to cinemas all over the world.  The Rhinegold was excellent and we expect nothing less from the rest.  Here is the list of UK participants http://www.metoperafamily.org/metopera/broadcast/countries/hd_events.aspx?id=3313

and here is the Met's HD broadcast home page http://www.metoperafamily.org/metopera/broadcast/hd_events_template.aspx?id=11964

Bummer, how did I not know they were broadcasting Rhinegold?   :(
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bhodges on November 30, 2010, 11:26:35 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on November 30, 2010, 11:17:49 AM
   Thank you David for the links  :)!  I might have missed Das Reingold and Walkure will not be broadcast till next spring/summer  :'(


marvin

Marvin (and Scarpia), not sure how this works in the UK, but here, you can often see the broadcasts, shown again at a later date (obviously now taped, not live).  Then still later, public television sometimes shows them a few times, and after that, many of these broadcasts have made it to DVD (on EMI).  (I don't know what the Met's plans are, as far as releasing this cycle on DVD.)

Anyway, there may be more opportunities to catch it.  :D

--Bruce
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on November 30, 2010, 11:40:52 AM
Quote from: bhodges on November 30, 2010, 11:26:35 AM
Marvin (and Scarpia), not sure how this works in the UK, but here, you can often see the broadcasts, shown again at a later date (obviously now taped, not live).  Then still later, public television sometimes shows them a few times, and after that, many of these broadcasts have made it to DVD (on EMI).  (I don't know what the Met's plans are, as far as releasing this cycle on DVD.)

Anyway, there may be more opportunities to catch it.  :D

--Bruce

The Met scheduled a single rebroadcast, which was shortly after the original, which I also missed.  Although it may come out on disc, the previous releases have been on generic DVD, which I am not particularly interested in. 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on November 30, 2010, 12:20:09 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 30, 2010, 11:22:00 AM
Bummer, how did I not know they were broadcasting Rhinegold?   :(
Beats me.  Bruce and I both posted about it at the time.  It was pretty darned good--even my wife, who's not a Wagner fan but who went along for my sake, LOVED it!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: GanChan on December 15, 2010, 10:40:31 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on September 12, 2010, 01:19:22 PM
Listening now to the Zagrosek/Naxos Walkure.  Only real flaw is the Brunnhilde (Renate Behle) who gets screechy a little too often, especially in the final scene (similar flaw in the Brunnhilde of the Halle Gotterdammerung, also a live recording). There is stage noise, but no audience noise except applause at the end of the acts. 

Meanwhile, I noticed this is set to be released October 19
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513QxuC9o2L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Has this set ever received a remastering since its original CD release way back when? Walkure looks like it got included in the "Philips 50" lineup, so I'm assuming it might have been cleaned up. What about the other operas -- anybody know?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: AndyD. on December 15, 2010, 03:43:41 PM
Quote from: kishnevi on September 12, 2010, 01:19:22 PM
Listening now to the Zagrosek/Naxos Walkure.  Only real flaw is the Brunnhilde (Renate Behle) who gets screechy a little too often, especially in the final scene (similar flaw in the Brunnhilde of the Halle Gotterdammerung, also a live recording). There is stage noise, but no audience noise except applause at the end of the acts. 

Meanwhile, I noticed this is set to be released October 19
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513QxuC9o2L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


Hey, do you have a link where I can find this?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on December 15, 2010, 03:49:51 PM
Quote from: AndyD. on December 15, 2010, 03:43:41 PM

Hey, do you have a link where I can find this?

I oblige. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003Y3MYYU?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B003Y3MYYU)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on December 15, 2010, 03:49:59 PM
Quote from: AndyD. on December 15, 2010, 03:43:41 PM

Hey, do you have a link where I can find this?

http://www.amazon.com/Ring-Nibelungen-Wagner/dp/B003Y3MYYU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1292460560&sr=8-1

New copies going for as low as $28 and change

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: AndyD. on December 15, 2010, 03:56:53 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on December 15, 2010, 03:49:59 PM
http://www.amazon.com/Ring-Nibelungen-Wagner/dp/B003Y3MYYU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1292460560&sr=8-1

New copies going for as low as $28 and change

Wow. I'm there.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kaergaard on December 16, 2010, 07:28:07 PM
It's too bad the amazon link doesn't give any information about cast, director and date of performance, recording. I wonder if it's the same Ring with Die Walküre I have on four discs, conducted by Böhm, the 1967 Bayreuth performance with James King, Leonie Rysanek, Gerd Nienstedt, Birgit Nilsson and Theo Adam.

Or did Böhm conduct The Ring only once in Bayreuth?
 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 17, 2010, 02:46:00 AM
Quote from: kaergaard on December 16, 2010, 07:28:07 PM
It's too bad the amazon link doesn't give any information about cast, director and date of performance, recording. I wonder if it's the same Ring with Die Walküre I have on four discs, conducted by Böhm, the 1967 Bayreuth performance with James King, Leonie Rysanek, Gerd Nienstedt, Birgit Nilsson and Theo Adam.

Or did Böhm conduct The Ring only once in Bayreuth?


It's the same performance; the Böhm Ring that was originally on Philips. But he did conduct the Ring at Bayreuth for three years: 1965, 66 67.

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: AndyD. on December 17, 2010, 07:01:09 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 17, 2010, 02:46:00 AM
It's the same performance; the Böhm Ring that was originally on Philips.Sarge

Well, from what I recall (I don't own that performance, just know it from download) that's a fantastic performance, so I'm grabbing it while the grabbing's good!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on December 17, 2010, 07:04:04 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on December 17, 2010, 07:01:09 AM
Well, from what I recall (I don't own that performance, just know it from download) that's a fantastic performance, so I'm grabbing it while the grabbing's good!

Very extroverted, fast paced, with some ragged playing from the orchestra because Bohm is pushing them too hard.  Culshaw ridicules it very severely (without naming it) in his book, The Golden Ring, but I like it better than the Culshaw/Solti set.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: AndyD. on December 17, 2010, 07:09:35 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on December 17, 2010, 07:04:04 AM
Very extroverted, fast paced, with some ragged playing from the orchestra because Bohm is pushing them too hard.  Culshaw ridicules it very severely (without naming it) in his book, The Golden Ring, but I like it better than the Culshaw/Solti set.

I'll always love the Solti Gotterdammerung the best, and most of his Siegfried as well. The Bohm is more consistent overall, to my hearing.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Guido on December 30, 2010, 12:29:17 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBXUVjul7C0&feature=related

this is beautiful. I most often like the sound of Wagner in lighter voices as it was more commonly heard 60ish year ago. I understand why things have changed, but it is a shame...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Tsaraslondon on December 30, 2010, 10:15:39 PM
Quote from: Guido on December 30, 2010, 12:29:17 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBXUVjul7C0&feature=related

this is beautiful. I most often like the sound of Wagner in lighter voices as it was more commonly heard 60ish year ago. I understand why things have changed, but it is a shame...

This is indeed a great piece of singing, Guido, and comes from a recital which also includes performances of Agathe's arias from Der Freischutz, that I have never heard bettered. It also includes the duet from Lohengrin, Euch Luften, die mein Klagen with Christa Ludwig, and Elisabeth's arias from Tannhauser. It is one of my all time favourite operatic recitals.

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/ad/d4/6fd681b0c8a0c50714909110.L.jpg)



Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Guido on December 31, 2010, 03:19:47 AM
Looks extremely tasty - will order it pronto. Did she ever sing these roles on stage?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on December 31, 2010, 09:57:31 AM
As so often, TL and I back one another's tastes. It is a superb CD. Schwarzkopf did sing the full role of Elsa. Her full Wagner roles also included Eva in Meistersingers and she appeared in Parsifal....but I suspect as a Flowermaiden. I don't know about the Tannhauser role. The notes with this disc suggest she only sang the arias in the studio.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: AndyD. on December 31, 2010, 11:06:06 AM
Quote from: knight on December 31, 2010, 09:57:31 AM
As so often, TL and I back one another's tastes. It is a superb CD. Schwarzkopf did sing the full role of Elsa. Her full Wagner roles also included Eva in Meistersingers and she appeared in Parsifal....but I suspect as a Flowermaiden. I don't know about the Tannhauser role. The notes with this disc suggest she only sang the arias in the studio.

Mike


She is amazing in all, if we're discussing the same recordings. Also my favorite singer for Strauss Vier Letze Lieder and Beethoven's 9th (classic 60's Karajan recording).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: rw1883 on January 13, 2011, 01:54:19 PM
I noticed the Wagner/Fürtwangler EMI Rome Ring is being re-released in the US on February 15th (the UK date is the 01/17).  It looks like they're using the remastering from the first CD release, but for only $35, I'll have to purchase!  I bought the Gebhardt remastering back in 2005, which some listeners prefer over the EMI.  Here's the link:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004CHURKA/ref=ord_cart_shr?ie=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004CHURKA/ref=ord_cart_shr?ie=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER)

Paul

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kaergaard on January 23, 2011, 08:12:25 PM
Meistersinger àla Katharina Wagner

I have watched all of it now, but am not ready yet to put down with words what's still swirling around in my head. One warning: Don't believe the reviews published by the professional critics; I wondered often if they have watched the same opera I have. Same with this production. Nobody displays dangling penises, the dangles don't dangle, they are solidly attached bovine horns, not too offensive.

The booing reported is at the very beginning of the applause, one very loud one, followed for a few seconds by a few minor ones, and then immediately drowned by the audience errupting in overwhelming applause, standing applause! - I suspect the lone first booer got a few Euro Dollars for his effort! -

My applause meter: Most went to Klaus Florian Vogt, the young, good looking Walter von Stolzing. His Meisterlied rocked the foundation of the Haus auf dem Hügel. I know, there should be some romance in this song, but Vogt's volume showed everybody how well he can sing it with  full tenoreal lungs. I wonder if he ever did a Siegfried. His Walter in the first two acts could be a perfect teenage, bratty Siegfried.

The second high applause recipient is Michael Volle's Beckmesser. He is the best Beckmesser I have seen or heard, yes, even better than Herman Prey in the old classic one. His performance shows the importance a director can make. I have the Meistersinger at Zürich in the Lehnhoff production, an entirely different Beckmesser. - Lehnhoff is on my list of admired directors! - I like Katharina's better, very lively, athletic, definitely nothing semitic about him.

And then there is Franz Hawlata as Hans Sachs. Would I have been in Bayreuth, I would have shouted and applauded the loudest and stomped my feet the hardest, but then I am partial to bass-baritones and such. Hawlata is such a layed-back cobbler, his Wahn, überall Wahn is heart-breaking and his Verachtet mir die Deutschen Meister nicht a most powerful, convincing declaration of the importance and beauty of Deutsche Kunst. Katharina decided to let this testimony close the opera, no presentation of the laurel wreath and such niceties. And I am impressed by her decision, it works because of the strength of Hawlata's performance.


Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 24, 2011, 11:07:31 AM
Thanks for this, Kaergaard. There are many prejudices floating around concerning Katharina. Let's give this Wagner a chance!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: snyprrr on January 24, 2011, 05:48:23 PM
ok, for some reason,... oh that's right,

I was watching Visconti's Ludwig on YOUTUBE and,... I suppose that was Wagner underneath it all? Anyhow, I liked how it was used in the film.

So, I've bypassed Wagner and am offering myself up to you to mold. Frankly, show me what the fuss is about, please.

And NO singing please, just the orchestra, ma'am. ;)

YouTube clips might be the way to go with me?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kaergaard on January 24, 2011, 07:13:20 PM
My admiration for your show of interest in Richard Wagner, that alone gets you a good distance toward the goal.

BUT: I am not familiar with the workings of UTube and wish another fellow poster will take over. The difficult part would be to find a Wagner UTube without singing; views of orchestra pits are hard to come by.

Don't go away, we are working on it!  8)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Bill H. on January 24, 2011, 07:29:17 PM
Quote from: kaergaard on January 24, 2011, 07:13:20 PM
My admiration for your show of interest in Richard Wagner, that alone gets you a good distance toward the goal.

BUT: I am not familiar with the workings of UTube and wish another fellow poster will take over. The difficult part would be to find a Wagner UTube without singing; views of orchestra pits are hard to come by.

Don't go away, we are working on it!  8)

There should be plenty of Youtube performances of purely instrumental excerpts (aka bleeding chunks).  In many cases no real "video" is uploaded with the music; it's just a montage of images, or even a single still photo that's shown. 

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kaergaard on January 24, 2011, 07:45:14 PM
Yes, there is this for a start, the most famous of Wagner's composition, just one chord:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wagner_Tristan_opening_(orchestral).ogg

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 25, 2011, 12:20:27 AM
For one reason or another, YouTube vids don't show up (and I have followed Rob's instructions to the letter). So I'll simply give this link to the famous Prelude of Tristan und Isolde (to see the chord 'in action', so to speak). In Visconti's Ludwig music from this work figures prominently...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fktwPGCR7Yw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fktwPGCR7Yw)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on January 25, 2011, 12:45:30 AM
Ah, Wagner. Best - composer - ever! My Wagner admiration begun when I was pre-teenager and has continued ever since. While there is no denying such genius opera composers like Verdi, Strauss, Puccini and Bizet... Wagner is in his own league. He creates amazing plots, complex characters where no one is purely good or evil, eargasmic music that consists of hundreds and hundreds of leitmotives which often play as combinations... and many of them use similar thematic material or even variations, yet making completely different effect! And let's not forget that Wagner operas are twice as long as many other operas and therefore much more awesome music!

Wagner's Ring - greatest masterpiece in history of both music AND literature. I started with it and boy, it hooked me instantly! I think Siegfried is my most favorite part, then Rheingold, Götterdämmerung and Walküre. Now, don't think I don't love Walküre, I worship it! It's just my least favorite from Ring. All Wagner's operas (at least starting from Fliegenden Holländer) are all genuine masterpieces... except masterpiece is too small word for these awesome romantic operas/music dramas! Possible reason why I like Walküre least is because it has only two of my favorite characters: Wotan and Loge (as a flame and musically), while my other favorite characters such as Alberich, Mime, Hagen, Gunther, Woodbird, Siegfried and Fafner are missing. But like I said, it is still awesome and kickass, both musically and in text! Der Ring des Nibelungen, how I love thee! I think my favorite recording is Solti, even though Furtwangler and Karajan are pretty close too.

Tristan und Isolde, turning point in music history! Verdi admitted in his old days that it was most admirable work ever. After I have listened to this, I usually sob uncontrollably in front of it's divine beauty. Tristan's betrayal, Isolde's love-hate relationship, Melot's jealousy combined with admiration , Kurwenal's loyalty, poor Marke's melancholy, Brangane's pessimism, Tristan-chord, chromatic scales! Best recording is naturally by Furtwangler.

Parsifal, Monty Python and the Holy Grail kneels before you! Even though Nietzsche attacked against Parsifal's libretto which he considered immoral, (I don't agree, I think it is one of Wagner's best) he admitted still it's magnificent beauty in music. Music drama that Debussy loved even when he became sceptical of his other works. Best recording of Wagner's solemn giant is most likely by Knappertsbusch or Solti.

Meistersinger, Wagner's most comedic work, and although less chromatic than Tristan, it is by no means a step backwards in it's hilarious satire and glorious orchestration. Karajan recording is most likely the best one to capture this wonderful comedy on 4 CDs!

Fliegenden Holländer, Tannhäuser and Lohengrin = crown jewels of romantic opera and already close to music drama. Ortrud is one of the best soprano roles in history! Best recordings I have heard are those by Karajan and Solti.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kaergaard on January 25, 2011, 05:52:47 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on January 24, 2011, 05:48:23 PM

And NO singing please, just the orchestra, ma'am. ;)

YouTube clips might be the way to go with me?

While searching for no-singing examples of Wagner's compositions, I remembered the wisdom of friend Wendell, who said: "Learning about Wagner without singing is sorta like wanting to learn about wine without consuming any alcohol."    :D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on January 25, 2011, 07:24:26 AM
Quote from: kaergaard on January 25, 2011, 05:52:47 AM
While searching for no-singing examples of Wagner's compositions, I remembered the wisdom of a friend who said: "Learning about Wagner without singing is sorta like wanting to learn about wine without consuming any alcohol."    :D
Is there singing in Wagner?

Although I chuckled at the irony of snipper's request, I also thought about suggesting:

[asin]B000002763[/asin]

P.S.  I've enjoyed your comments about Katerina's Meistersinger, Lis.  I'm intrigued by the idea of a Wagner with a sense of humor.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on January 25, 2011, 07:48:30 AM
Quote from: kaergaard on January 23, 2011, 08:12:25 PM
Meistersinger àla Katharina Wagner

I have watched all of it now, but am not ready yet to put down with words what's still swirling around in my head. One warning: Don't believe the reviews published by the professional critics

I finally got the DVD after seeing it then (Bayreuth cat). And I take a bit of exception to the suggestion that everyone trashed it when it came out. While I eschewed reviewing it directly, I had always thought it was rather smart:

(http://weta.org/fm/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/meistersinger_beckmesser2_polnitz-eisfeld.jpg)
Friday, 7.27.07, 6:00 am
Holy German Art: Wagnerian Games on the "Green Hill"
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=130 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=130)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kaergaard on January 25, 2011, 08:08:08 AM
Tomassini had interesting things to say - play! - about Wagner and Verdi:


http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/17/top-10-composers-hailing-operas-shakespeare-and-its-proust/
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on January 25, 2011, 08:13:19 AM
Welcome, Alberich!  (Question:  Why this screen name?  Reminds me of another member who goes by the name "Scarpia.")
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kaergaard on January 25, 2011, 08:27:20 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on January 25, 2011, 07:24:26 AM

P.S.  I've enjoyed your comments about Katerina's Meistersinger, Lis.  I'm intrigued by the idea of a Wagner with a sense of humor.

David: With your most extravagant imaginary staging idea, would you think of placing Hans Sachs, wearing a shirt exposing large part of his stout, hairy chest, rolled up sleeves, bare feet propped up on the conference table, Meistersingers seated at it, and have him smoke a cigarette?  :o

And it works! Not one bit offensive.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on January 25, 2011, 08:30:41 AM
Quote from: kaergaard on January 25, 2011, 08:27:20 AM
David: With your most extravagant imaginary staging idea, would you think of placing Hans Sachs, wearing a shirt exposing large part of his stout, hairy chest, rolled up sleeves, bare feet propped up on the conference table, Meistersingers seated at it, and have him smoke a cigarette?  :o

And it works! Not one bit offensive.
Probably not. I'd be more inclined to cast Sachs as an aging counterculture geeky type--say, John Adams with a ponytail--amidst the bean-counters.  ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on January 25, 2011, 12:38:49 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on January 25, 2011, 08:13:19 AM
Welcome, Alberich!  (Question:  Why this screen name?  Reminds me of another member who goes by the name "Scarpia.")

I am going little offtopic:

Thanks! At first I thought to make a nick "Nibelungenherr", since I was almost sure that Alberich was taken already... which it wasn't. I picked up Alberich, because he is one of my favorite opera characters and along with Wotan he is the character that I find most comfortable to identify with. Please forgive any possible typos etc. I may have made. IMO I have decent english, but it might be outright terrible to someone else.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: snyprrr on January 25, 2011, 12:40:03 PM
See how quickly you guys get off topic! ;) ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: snyprrr on January 25, 2011, 12:44:55 PM
Anyhow, I WILL take off the no singing restriction, if that will make everyone's job easier, haha, however, I notoriously hate opera singing, so, the 'smoother' the better (I know, I know, I'm demanding in a Wagner Thread, haha!). I might prefer the voices more in the texture, if that's possible.

I remember the scene in the forest, from Ludwig, where there is courtship going on,... that was nice. If anyone hasn't seen it, by all means do.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on January 25, 2011, 12:45:48 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on January 25, 2011, 12:40:03 PM
See how quickly you guys get off topic! ;) ;D
Well, it's either that or discuss Wagner....

Quote from: Alberich on January 25, 2011, 12:38:49 PM
I picked up Alberich, because he is one of my favorite opera characters and along with Wotan he is the character that I find most comfortable to identify with.
I suspect you'll get along just fine here!  ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kaergaard on January 25, 2011, 01:32:28 PM
Alberich! The man who has the very last word in the greatest work every put together by a mortal using a small number of musical notes!

Welcome, and don't fret about your English, we are an internatianal bunch of people!  8)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 25, 2011, 02:58:43 PM
Quote from: kaergaard on January 25, 2011, 01:32:28 PM
Alberich! The man who has the very last word in the greatest work every put together by a mortal using a small number of musical notes!

Erm - that was his son Hagen...  :o ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kaergaard on January 25, 2011, 03:05:29 PM
Hurrah! I did it again! Three times in a row getting my names loused up. Do I get a reward for that achievement?  :'(

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 25, 2011, 03:09:09 PM
Quote from: kaergaard on January 25, 2011, 03:05:29 PM
Hurrah! I did it again! Three times in a row getting my names loused up. Do I get a reward for that achievement?  :'(


Wagner forgives you. 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: snyprrr on January 25, 2011, 09:37:29 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on January 25, 2011, 12:20:27 AM
For one reason or another, YouTube vids don't show up (and I have followed Rob's instructions to the letter). So I'll simply give this link to the famous Prelude of Tristan und Isolde (to see the chord 'in action', so to speak). In Visconti's Ludwig music from this work figures prominently...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fktwPGCR7Yw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fktwPGCR7Yw)

ok, so now I remember why I was kind of having a problem. You're going to say I'm crazy, but @6:20, it sounds like Tchaikovsky to me, Romeo&Juliet, the big moment, but, without the big moment.

So, that's why I've never been able to deal with either Tchaikovsky or Wagner,... why can't there be a perfect union of the two, without either's drawbacks? PT comes too much, RW not enough. >:(

But, that is why I never made it past that Prelude. Now I remember.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 26, 2011, 12:02:28 AM
The 'point' of the Prelude, snyprrr, is exactly the absence of  the 'big moment'. It expresses unresolved yearning, a longing that can find no fulfilment. So you couldn't, either... Only at the end of the opera, with 'Isolde's Transfiguration' (better known as her 'Liebestod'), we get that 'big moment'.

As for Tchaikovsky uniting with Wagner in a perfect union for your benefit, heaven forbid! Let them both be 'romantic' in their very separate ways...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Guido on January 26, 2011, 04:30:18 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on January 25, 2011, 09:37:29 PM
ok, so now I remember why I was kind of having a problem. You're going to say I'm crazy, but @6:20, it sounds like Tchaikovsky to me, Romeo&Juliet, the big moment, but, without the big moment.

So, that's why I've never been able to deal with either Tchaikovsky or Wagner,... why can't there be a perfect union of the two, without either's drawbacks? PT comes too much, RW not enough. >:(

But, that is why I never made it past that Prelude. Now I remember.

Amazing, that you so perfectly experienced what Wagner intended! Have you read about this at all - did you know that's how you were meant to feel?!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on January 26, 2011, 04:47:39 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on January 25, 2011, 02:58:43 PM
Erm - that was his son Hagen...  :o ;)

Yeah, but Alberich is one of the only characters who doesn't die. :P Can't deny Hagen's awesomeness either, though. He is like Iago from Othello, master manipulator, using Siegfried's perjury as his advantage, and finally when Siegfried is out of the way, he even kills freaking Gunther of the Gibichungs. Damn, Hagen is pretty cool guy. He kills stuff and doesn't afraid of anything.

...Oh, I get it. You meant last line, "Zurück vom Ring!" which was indeed by Hagen. I almost thought that by "getting the last word" Kaergaard was referring that Alberich kind of triumphs even though Ring gets back to the Rhinemaidens, since almost everyone else gets pretty nasty end. In original Siegfried's tod-libretto there was even line "And Alberich and the Nibelungs shall be free again". I wonder what Alberich is up to after Götterdämmerung... maybe another try with those ****** of Rhein. They are soon gonna lose their virginity along with gold. :P
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 26, 2011, 06:15:00 AM
Quote from: Alberich on January 26, 2011, 04:47:39 AM
Can't deny Hagen's awesomeness either, though. He is like Iago from Othello, master manipulator, using Siegfried's perjury as his advantage, and finally when Siegfried is out of the way, he even kills freaking Gunther of the Gibichungs. Damn, Hagen is pretty cool guy. He kills stuff and doesn't afraid of anything.

I always feel sympathy for Hagen, son of a Gibichung mother and a Nibelung father. He isn't master of his own fate, but is manipulated and coerced by his (sorry!) terrible father to manipulate others. He is a tragic character, joyless and haunted. That nightly visitation by Alberich at the beginning of the Second Act of Götterdämmerung must be among the creepiest things Wagner ever wrote. Iago, on the other hand, really is an evil schemer. Compared to him, even Alberich is all too human - it is thwarted lust, after all, that makes Alberich steal the gold, whereas Iago simply gets a kick out of destroying Othello, citing several spurious reasons to himself for doing so. 'Motiveless malignity', as Coleridge called it.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on January 26, 2011, 08:45:54 AM
Oh, I completely agree that Hagen is not really evil. Like i said in my previous post: I cannot name single really evil or good character, but mix of both, like real humans (Even Elsa from Lohengrin is kind of proud snob and Gutrune, although wasn't aware that Siegfried had already fallen in love and tolerated lot of Brünnhilde's bitching, still used love potion). I didn't really mean that he was same as Iago, just compared their intelligence and wanted to praise Hagen  :D. Although, I'd like to point out that even Iago has both in the play and in Verdi's opera version couple humane points, though only brief, such as in end of his credo when he looks into his soul and seems somewhat petrified. And let's not forget that in play Iago strongly suspects that Othello has had sex with Emilia which although doesn't have anything to do with Desdemona, still gives him some kind of motive. Hagen was certainly not worse than many other characters such as Siegfried who killed Mime after all these years he had taken care of him and who was justified in his hatred, cause Siegfried was really kind of jerk to him. I also feel sorry for Hagen and to me it seems that Wagner was kind of using Hagen's loveless impregnation as metaphor: no love between parents = these tragic beings like Hagen. Of course, someone may say that Hagen was just character created by Wagner's antisemitic opinions and also implying that bastard son = supposedly "antagonist" but I don't agree with that. Especially since Hagen is really strong and in many ways admirable character.

And to defend Alberich: he is very similar to Wotan, even Wotan calls himself "Licht-Alberich". Alberich was rejected and mocked by Rhinemaidens and I don't think he really steals gold for vengeance but as a replacement for love which he cursed after he saw how cruel it was: similarly, Wotan stole branch from World-ash-tree and had to pay his other eye: so they both really just made a trade: and although Alberich enslaved his people, Wotan would have done same to the entire world (which was ultimately also Alberich's goal) and as a keeper of laws that would lead to a disaster as Ring was not his. So, in my opinion: also Alberich and Wotan are very humane and sympathetic characters.

Of course, everyone has their own opinions (thank you captain obvious!).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 26, 2011, 08:54:02 AM
Quote from: Alberich on January 26, 2011, 08:45:54 AM
And to defend Alberich: he is very similar to Wotan, even Wotan calls himself "Licht-Alberich". Alberich was rejected and mocked by Rhinemaidens and I don't think he really steals gold for vengeance but as a replacement for love which he cursed after he saw how cruel it was: similarly, Wotan stole branch from World-ash-tree and had to pay his other eye: so they both really just made a trade: and although Alberich enslaved his people, Wotan would have done same to the entire world (which was ultimately also Alberich's goal) and as a keeper of laws that would lead to a disaster as Ring was not his. So, in my opinion: also Alberich and Wotan are very humane and sympathetic characters.

Agreed. Excellent post! Wotan and Alberich are 'Licht-Albe' and 'Schwarz-Albe'. They both crave power and they both 'use' their sons (Siegmund and Hagen) to further their goal. The difference being - Wotan gives up, though he has difficulty relinquishing his power (confrontation with his grandson Siegfried). One aspect of Wagner's greatness - apart from the astonishing music - is, indeed, his penetrating insight into human nature, himself not excluded.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on January 26, 2011, 08:59:09 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on January 26, 2011, 08:54:02 AM
One aspect of Wagner's greatness is, indeed, his penetrating insight into human nature
Examples?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 26, 2011, 09:13:38 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on January 26, 2011, 08:59:09 AM
Examples?

Let's say Wagner is able to create, in Hans Sachs, in Wotan, in Fricka, in Tristan, Isolde et al,  thoroughly believable human beings with a music that can match their every mood, and makes us know them. He is not alone in this ability, but it's the whole package, of deep understanding combined with a very powerful music, that make him very special. But I'd rather you experience that for yourself (or not, as the case may be).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on January 26, 2011, 09:20:22 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on January 26, 2011, 08:59:09 AM
Examples?

In all fairness: probably every character in the Ring. And most, if not all, other operas of his. The amount of gray, rather than black and white, alone! The astonishing subtleties and the nuance of his characters... The complexity of emotions, actions, reactions, and motivation (no character does something without having a perceptible motivation to do so) lift his operas dramatically to the level of most top-level playwrights. Only the language isn't all that great (though still better than its reputation). And then he combines it with music that has a psychological level of its own... (I quote from "Extras, Episode One": "It's layered. It was made like that." It's in all that where Wagner's greatness as a creator lies.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 26, 2011, 09:24:49 AM
@jlaurson I think we're in agreement here... 'Extras'? By Ricky Gervais and Stephen Merchant? I love it!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on January 26, 2011, 09:40:00 AM
I have thought about making "favorite wagner leitmotives"-topic, but is it so closely related to this topic that should I just put my thoughts about them here? At least I didn't find any topics especially focused on that when I searched, but if I may have missed one, then please wound me with Holy Spear and lead me to it.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on January 26, 2011, 09:41:59 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 26, 2011, 09:20:22 AM
In all fairness: probably every character in the Ring. And most, if not all, other operas of his. The amount of gray, rather than black and white, alone! The astonishing subtleties and the nuance of his characters... The complexity of emotions, actions, reactions, and motivation (no character does something without having a perceptible motivation to do so) lift his operas dramatically to the level of most top-level playwrights. Only the language isn't all that great (though still better than its reputation). And then he combines it with music that has a psychological level of its own... (I quote from "Extras, Episode One": "It's layered. It was made like that." It's in all that where Wagner's greatness as a creator lies.

I don't doubt that the characters in the Ring are complex creations.  My problem with Wagner is the mode of story-telling.  First we watch the action, then time stops and the characters explain their exact motivations to us at great length. 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 26, 2011, 09:46:48 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 26, 2011, 09:41:59 AM
I don't doubt that the characters in the Ring are complex creations.  My problem with Wagner is the mode of story-telling.  First we watch the action, then time stops and the characters explain their exact motivations to us at great length.

A lot of the story-telling goes on in the orchestra. In the music is much of the emotion, of time, of the personal history of the characters.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on January 26, 2011, 09:48:55 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on January 26, 2011, 09:46:48 AM
A lot of the story-telling goes on in the orchestra. In the music is much of the emotion, of time, of the personal history of the characters.

Do you honestly think I am not aware of that?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 26, 2011, 09:57:50 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 26, 2011, 09:48:55 AM
Do you honestly think I am not aware of that?

No, certainly not. But neither does it seem to help you. Wagner, though he idolised Shakespeare, was certainly as much influenced by neo-Classical theatre, where things also are more talked-about than shown. I personally have no trouble with the static nature of Wagner's story-telling.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on January 26, 2011, 10:00:11 AM
Wagner's dramas are very psychological, that's why characters have so many monologues. In Parsifal, without Gurnemanz's tale in act I we wouldn't know almost anything about Klingsor's motives for revenge and how Amfortas got his wound. In Tristan und Isolde: Isolde's monologue tells about her personal grudge against Tristan. And about things we already know: in Valkyrie's act II Wotan's long monologue (with only few lines by Brünnhilde) is indeed about things we know... but also about how he personally feels about them now, it is about character development (and because orchestra also comments about Wotan's story or in some parts even says the opposite, therefore it is also thematic process). Wotan has become more mature during the years and let's not forget that between Rhinegold and Valkyrie there might have gone really long time, maybe even centuries. However, I can see that everyone doesn't appreciate Wagner's style.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on January 26, 2011, 10:02:44 AM
I just don't get the "penetrating insight" bit.  Wagner's broad strokes seem more superficial to me than, say, da Ponte's characterizations in Le Nozze, and not even close to well-established literature, such as Shakespeare noted above.

I keep trying to understand why so many heap so much praise on Wagner.  Examples that illustrate the claim would help a slow learner like me.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on January 26, 2011, 10:07:00 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on January 26, 2011, 09:57:50 AM
No, certainly not. But neither does it seem to help you. Wagner, though he idolised Shakespeare, was certainly as much influenced by neo-Classical theatre, where things also are more talked-about than shown. I personally have no trouble with the static nature of Wagner's story-telling.

I'm not a big fan of "theater" and various schools of theater are lost on me.  However, what I find interesting is when characters in a theater piece talk to each other and allow us to learn about their motivations by their interactions with each other.  A brief interjection in which the character talks to himself or makes an aside may be a necessary device, in Wagner this interminable rehashing of action goes on for longer than my attention span can suffer.   :-\
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on January 26, 2011, 10:09:53 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 26, 2011, 10:07:00 AM
I'm not a big fan of "theater" and various schools of theater are lost on me.  However, what I find interesting is when characters in a theater piece talk to each other and allow us to learn about their motivations by their interactions with each other.  A brief interjection in which the character talks to himself or makes an aside may be a necessary device, in Wagner this interminable rehashing of action goes on for longer than my attention span can suffer.   :-\
Only one of the reasons I think his music dramas are dramatically weak.  Ambition alone is neither necessary nor sufficient for accomplishment.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on January 26, 2011, 10:14:06 AM
Quote from: Alberich on January 26, 2011, 10:00:11 AM
Wagner's dramas are very psychological, that's why characters have so many monologues. In Parsifal, without Gurnemanz's tale in act I we wouldn't know almost anything about Klingsor's motives for revenge and how Amfortas got his wound. In Tristan und Isolde: Isolde's monologue tells about her personal grudge against Tristan. And about things we already know: in Valkyrie's act II Wotan's long monologue (with only few lines by Brünnhilde) is indeed about things we know... but also about how he personally feels about them now, it is about character development (and because orchestra also comments about Wotan's story or in some parts even says the opposite, therefore it is also thematic process). Wotan has become more mature during the years and let's not forget that between Rhinegold and Valkyrie there might have gone really long time, maybe even centuries. However, I can see that everyone doesn't appreciate Wagner's style.

I don't have any problem with Rhinegold, it is Die Walkure where I get lost, particularly in that act II monologue.  My feeling is Wagner could have portrayed Wotan's feelings about himself and the action is a more implicit way, in his actions or in how he deals with others.  But Wagner was so in love his symbolism that he felt he had to hit us over the head with it. 

But Wagner does an admirable job of creating the impression that Walkure itself may take centuries.   ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Leon on January 26, 2011, 10:15:46 AM
Speaking of Shakespeare, of course, he was a fan of the soliloquy, so I can't fault Wagner for using that theatrical device.  But there are plenty of other things I can fault him with.

;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 26, 2011, 10:25:35 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 26, 2011, 10:14:06 AM
I don't have any problem with Rhinegold, it is Die Walkure where I get lost, particularly in that act II monologue.  My feeling is Wagner could have portrayed Wotan's feelings about himself and the action is a more implicit way, in his actions or in how he deals with others.  But Wagner was so in love his symbolism that he felt he had to hit us over the head with it.

Wagner himself was aware of the fact that the monologue is disproportionally long and that it hampers an otherwise dramatically very exciting act (the confrontation Fricka-Wotan, the later one between Brünnhilde and Siegmund). But, as he wrote to Liszt or his friend Roeckel, on this monologue, in which Wotan bares his soul, hinges the whole edifice of the Ring. So he had to do it this way. In performance a good Wotan can make the monologue full of suspense. But it can also be a big yawn...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on January 26, 2011, 10:25:54 AM
Quote from: Leon on January 26, 2011, 10:15:46 AM
Speaking of Shakespeare, of course, he was a fan of the soliloquy, so I can't fault Wagner for using that theatrical device.  But there are plenty of other things I can fault him with.

Am I the only one who would hesitate to put Little Dickie's prose on the same level as Shakespeare?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on January 26, 2011, 10:29:23 AM
My next words are not in any way meant as insult to those who enjoy quick action (actually, I love it also, as well as slow action).

Wagner was well aware of criticism about apparent "lack of action" in his operas. That is one of the reasons why he called Tristan, his most psychological music drama by term "Handlung" (action), by which he meant action that happens inside persons, because inner conflicts can be even more dramatic than outside ones. Kind of clever from him, and slap across the face to all those narrow-minded critics who couldn't read between the lines  ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Leon on January 26, 2011, 10:29:32 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 26, 2011, 10:25:54 AM
Am I the only one who would hesitate to put Little Dickie's prose on the same level as Shakespeare?

No; but it was the idea of a character stopping the action to perform a monolog describing his feelings that some were objecting to in Wagner's operas. 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 26, 2011, 10:32:56 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 26, 2011, 10:25:54 AM
Am I the only one who would hesitate to put Little Dickie's prose on the same level as Shakespeare?

As a poet Wagner is inferior to Shakespeare, or Goethe, or a great playwright like Heinrich von Kleist. But a greater poet like Hugo von Hofmannsthal, who collaborated with Strauss, was envious of the perfect synthesis of words and music which Wagner had achieved. For many people here, German is not a language they know. If you do, there is more colour and nuance in Wagner's texts than you think.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on January 26, 2011, 10:33:39 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 26, 2011, 10:25:54 AM
Am I the only one who would hesitate to put Little Dickie's prose on the same level as Shakespeare?
Hardly.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on January 26, 2011, 10:35:51 AM
Quote from: Leon on January 26, 2011, 10:29:32 AM
No; but it was the idea of a character stopping the action to perform a monolog describing his feelings that some were objecting to in Wagner's operas.

Fair enough, but do they go on for 45 minutes in Shakespeare?  Violetta has her soliloquies in La Traviata, but they are brief and serve to propel the action forward.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 26, 2011, 10:45:12 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 26, 2011, 10:35:51 AM
Fair enough, but do they go on for 45 minutes in Shakespeare?  Violetta has her soliloquies in La Traviata, but they are brief and serve to propel the action forward.

Wagner's dramas are not mainly concerned with action and most of his characters live in a legendary, mythological world. Only the Meistersinger is set in historic Nuremberg. One way to approach his operas is by seeing them as big dreams with symbolic yet very human figures, dramas of the mind. The operas create their own sense of time.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on January 26, 2011, 12:37:11 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on January 26, 2011, 09:24:49 AM
@jlaurson I think we're in agreement here... 'Extras'? By Ricky Gervais and Stephen Merchant? I love it!

Of course, "Extras". Ben Stiller brilliantly pokes fun at himself... but as they say: in every joke there's a bit of a joke [sic].
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: snyprrr on January 26, 2011, 03:50:02 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on January 26, 2011, 12:02:28 AM
The 'point' of the Prelude, snyprrr, is exactly the absence of  the 'big moment'. It expresses unresolved yearning, a longing that can find no fulfilment. So you couldn't, either... Only at the end of the opera, with 'Isolde's Transfiguration' (better known as her 'Liebestod'), we get that 'big moment'.

As for Tchaikovsky uniting with Wagner in a perfect union for your benefit, heaven forbid! Let them both be 'romantic' in their very separate ways...

I knew that wouldn't go well. ;D

ok, I understand your point.



Are Tchai and Wag then the two poles of the same impulse?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Guido on January 26, 2011, 04:32:17 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on January 26, 2011, 10:32:56 AM
As a poet Wagner is inferior to Shakespeare, or Goethe, or a great playwright like Heinrich von Kleist. But a greater poet like Hugo von Hofmannsthal, who collaborated with Strauss, was envious of the perfect synthesis of words and music which Wagner had achieved. For many people here, German is not a language they know. If you do, there is more colour and nuance in Wagner's texts than you think.

With Wagner though, the words and music came from the same mind, so it's not surprising that the synthesis is so effortless! In Hofmannsthal's letters to Struass one sometimes wonders whether he would have preferred to compose the operas himself! The abuse, the constant disparagement, telling him he composed it in the wrong way... of course it's not all negative, but the haughty tone strongly suggests Hoffmansthal's compositional frustrations to me! Not sure if this is how he would have seen it.

Strauss and Hoffmansthal achieve the synthesis much more rarely, and even within works, it's not consistent, but when it does work, for me there is really nothing more moving, even if less Profound in the Teutonic sense than Wagner. (The Marschallin's Monologue being the most sublime example from both parties)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on January 27, 2011, 12:39:52 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on January 26, 2011, 03:50:02 PM
Are Tchai and Wag then the two poles of the same impulse?

Tchaikovsky was anti-wagnerian and called his operas boring and tiresome. I agree that they both have somewhat similar passionate music, but many critics critizise Tchaikovsky from lack of structure in his compositions, and while Wagner's music dramas are sometimes also critizised about lack of shape, nowadays it is widely known that thematic structure in Wagner's dramas is very strong and the complexity of it's structure is the very reason why critics thought it had no solid structure.

Indeed, sometimes development with musical ideas in Tchaikovsky's compositions is more like same melody in another key and with different instruments or some themes appear only once and don't really have purpose when considering entirety of the composition. Such as beginning of the first movement in violin concerto (although I actually think that it is cleverly transformed foreshadowing of the main theme). But... it doesn't matter since Tchaikovsky's melodies are so mothaf**king awesome that you hardly even think about it!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: snyprrr on February 02, 2011, 08:51:07 AM
I did find a Philip Jones does Wagner. Do you think a brass Wagner cd is acceptable,...? I know, I know...Anyhow, I don't really want to hear Pictures at an Exhibition for brass, but Wagner? Maybe? Is this a good idea for a first Wagner cd? I like PJBE.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kaergaard on February 05, 2011, 12:33:15 PM
 Das Rheingold in Milano.  

No, no, no, that'll never do. This Rheingold should either be performed as a ballet or an opera, not both simultaniously. I know it has been a habit lately to have dancers sharing the stage with the singers for a few minutes, it works rarely. This one has a rather large number of athletic, scantily clad dancers doing their thing from beginning to end, pulling attention away from the singers, and occasionaly getting stumbled over by them.

René Pape as Wotan, dressed in a contemporary suit, seems to me to have wandered in from the street, standing around most of the time, leaning on his spear, wondering: "What in hell am I here for?"

Enough said!

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 05, 2011, 12:54:53 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on February 02, 2011, 08:51:07 AM
I did find a Philip Jones does Wagner. Do you think a brass Wagner cd is acceptable,...? I know, I know...Anyhow, I don't really want to hear Pictures at an Exhibition for brass, but Wagner? Maybe? Is this a good idea for a first Wagner cd? I like PJBE.

You're putting us on, right? Very funny.

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 05, 2011, 12:58:33 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 05, 2011, 12:54:53 PM
You're putting us on, right? Very funny.

Sarge


No, he isn't. I know the cover...


(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/bb/ba/f4f5d250fca0d04a80f87010.L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 05, 2011, 01:05:27 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 26, 2011, 10:35:51 AM
Fair enough, but do they go on for 45 minutes in Shakespeare?

What "soliloquy" goes on for 45 minutes in any of Wagner's operas?!? You're being silly, Scarpia. If any single bit of Wagner seems like 45 minutes to you, I suggest you just not listen. Try Vivaldi or Telemann instead. Their movements never last more than 3 minutes. Perfect for the ADD inflicted  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 05, 2011, 01:10:38 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on February 05, 2011, 12:58:33 PM

No, he isn't. I know the cover...


(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/bb/ba/f4f5d250fca0d04a80f87010.L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Yes, I know the disc exists. My response was to his question, "Is this a good idea for a first Wagner cd?" I can't believe he's serious. I think he's putting us on. It's as nonsensical as if he'd asked in the Haydn thread: "Is the kazooo version of op.76 a good idea for a first Haydn quartet CD?"

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 05, 2011, 01:27:36 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 05, 2011, 01:10:38 PM
Yes, I know the disc exists. My response was to his question, "Is this a good idea for a first Wagner cd?" I can't believe he's serious. I think he's putting us on. It's as nonsensical as if he'd asked in the Haydn thread: "Is the kazooo version of op.76 a good idea for a first Haydn quartet CD?"

Sarge
You mean you've never heard it?!?! It's a classic!  :o :P
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 05, 2011, 01:29:31 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 05, 2011, 01:10:38 PM
Yes, I know the disc exists. My response was to his question, "Is this a good idea for a first Wagner cd?" I can't believe he's serious. I think he's putting us on. It's as nonsensical as if he'd asked in the Haydn thread: "Is the kazooo version of op.76 a good idea for a first Haydn quartet CD?"

Sarge


Haha! But as snyprrr likes brass bands and he wants Wagner without any singing... 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bigshot on February 05, 2011, 01:38:00 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 05, 2011, 01:05:27 PM
What "soliloquy" goes on for 45 minutes in any of Wagner's operas?!?

The second act of Walkure can seem mighty long, as can the Mime banter in the beginning of Siegfried. It's not as bad if you understand the words or have subtitles. But in the opera house it can seem like a 45 minute string of soliloquies
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 05, 2011, 01:42:29 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 05, 2011, 01:10:38 PM
...It's as nonsensical as if he'd asked in the Haydn thread: "Is the kazooo version of op.76 a good idea for a first Haydn quartet CD?"

Sarge

Pretty sure he did... I suggested that he try Wagner for Brass instead. 0:)

8)


----------------
Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music / Schröder  Hogwood - K 248b 250alt  Symphony in D 5th mvmt - Adagio - Allegro assai
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on February 05, 2011, 01:53:48 PM
Quote from: kaergaard on February 05, 2011, 12:33:15 PM
Das Rheingold in Milano.  

No, no, no, that'll never do. This Rheingold should either be performed as a ballet or an opera, not both simultaniously. I know it has been a habit lately to have dancers sharing the stage with the singers for a few minutes, it works rarely. This one has a rather large number of athletic, scantily clad dancers doing their thing from beginning to end, pulling attention away from the singers, and occasionaly getting stumbled over by them.

René Pape as Wotan, dressed in a contemporary suit, seems to me to have wandered in from the street, standing around most of the time, leaning on his spear, wondering: "What in hell am I here for?"

Enough said!

How did you manage to see this production?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: greg on February 05, 2011, 02:30:02 PM
Quote from: Alberich on January 27, 2011, 12:39:52 AM
thematic structure in Wagner's dramas is very strong and the complexity of it's structure is the very reason why critics thought it had no solid structure.
I think it's similar with some of Mahler's stuff. It's just that it's very hard to naturally hear the structure when it's so complex. If you study a single movement closely, though, the logic is unveiled.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kaergaard on February 05, 2011, 06:40:41 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on February 05, 2011, 01:53:48 PM
How did you manage to see this production?

Courtesy of European Television Networks, who offer their subscribers the choices of opera, concert, broadcasts, etc. every evening!

Further courtesy of European friends recording the broadcasts and sharing this cultural wealth with their friends living in cultural wastelands!  :P

I wouldn't list this Milano production as 'cultural wealth', but hey, there is still Wagner's music and Pape sings beautifully, even with half naked males and females hanging all over his body, physically hanging!  :o
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on February 06, 2011, 05:20:51 AM
Quote from: kaergaard on February 05, 2011, 06:40:41 PM
Courtesy of European Television Networks, who offer their subscribers the choices of opera, concert, broadcasts, etc. every evening!

Further courtesy of European friends recording the broadcasts and sharing this cultural wealth with their friends living in cultural wastelands!  :P

I wouldn't list this Milano production as 'cultural wealth', but hey, there is still Wagner's music and Pape sings beautifully, even with half naked males and females hanging all over his body, physically hanging!  :o

This is the production that they did as one of those simulcasts to movie theaters?  I wanted to see it but they schedule the one broadcast on a Tuesday afternoon, 2pm Eastern time.  Marketing genius's, these Italians, after studying American culture by watching 'Dallas' they determined that Americans don't have to go to work.   ::)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on February 07, 2011, 02:16:07 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on February 05, 2011, 01:29:31 PM

Haha! But as snyprrr likes brass bands and he wants Wagner without any singing...

  WHAT??!! Now that is sacrilegious!  Wagner without any singing  >:( and worst yet,  played by a brass band  >:( what is this world coming to??

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kaergaard on February 07, 2011, 06:28:07 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on February 06, 2011, 05:20:51 AM
This is the production that they did as one of those simulcasts to movie theaters?

Sorry, can't help you there because I am not familiar with the Scala's broadcast; I don't even know if they simulcast to movie theaters. But opera and concert performances are usually shown to home viewers by television networks.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bigshot on February 07, 2011, 11:55:04 AM
How about Stan Kenton's big band Wagner?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on February 07, 2011, 12:12:51 PM
Quote from: bigshot on February 07, 2011, 11:55:04 AM
How about Stan Kenton's big band Wagner?
I detect a sense of humor.  Are you sure you're a Wagnerite?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bigshot on February 07, 2011, 10:36:30 PM
Kill da wabbit?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: snyprrr on February 08, 2011, 06:52:15 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 05, 2011, 01:42:29 PM
Pretty sure he did... I suggested that he try Wagner for Brass instead. 0:)

8)


----------------
Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music / Schröder  Hogwood - K 248b 250alt  Symphony in D 5th mvmt - Adagio - Allegro assai

Stop! Stop! You're killin' me! ;D ;D ;D I'll wake the neighbors if I laugh any harder! ;D ;D ;D

Can't... write through... tears :-*...

Quote from: marvinbrown on February 07, 2011, 02:16:07 AM
  WHAT??!! Now that is sacrilegious!  Wagner without any singing  >:( and worst yet,  played by a brass band  >:( what is this world coming to??

  marvin

runs away dodging lightning bolts...

Quote from: ukrneal on February 05, 2011, 01:27:36 PM
You mean you've never heard it?!?! It's a classic!  :o :P

Stop! Stop!  I can't take it anymore!! ;D ;D ;D :-* :-* :-*

tears...tears...

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: snyprrr on February 08, 2011, 06:55:46 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 05, 2011, 01:10:38 PM
Yes, I know the disc exists. My response was to his question, "Is this a good idea for a first Wagner cd?" I can't believe he's serious. I think he's putting us on. It's as nonsensical as if he'd asked in the Haydn thread: "Is the kazooo version of op.76 a good idea for a first Haydn quartet CD?"

Sarge

It was here that coffee sprayed all over the monitor! :-* The sense of annoyance was too much for me. ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 09, 2011, 08:50:07 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on February 08, 2011, 06:55:46 PM
I was here that coffee sprayed all over the monitor!

Then my work here is done  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on February 10, 2011, 05:05:49 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 05, 2011, 01:10:38 PM
Yes, I know the disc exists. My response was to his question, "Is this a good idea for a first Wagner cd?" I can't believe he's serious. I think he's putting us on. It's as nonsensical as if he'd asked in the Haydn thread: "Is the kazooo version of op.76 a good idea for a first Haydn quartet CD?"

Sarge

Or as silly as a hurdy-gurdy version of Die Winterreise, huh...

Whatever does the trick, I suppose. Were someone to get the Wagner-on-Brass CD and didn't like it... surely they would not lay all the blame at Wagner's feet, fully aware that Wagner didn't necessarily have that version in mind.
Listening to Uri Caine's "Goldberg Variations" now, after that FANTASTIC Ullmann disc mentioned in the "Purchases Today" thread.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bigshot on February 10, 2011, 05:16:37 PM
Didn't Wagner make special arrangements of his music for a brass quartet that would call the audience back from intermission at Bayreuth?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on February 10, 2011, 05:22:16 PM
Quote from: bigshot on February 10, 2011, 05:16:37 PM
Didn't Wagner make special arrangements of his music for a brass quartet that would call the audience back from intermission at Bayreuth?
yep.

from "Wagneroperas.com" THE FANFARES
Before each performance is given at the Bayreuth Festspielhaus, and towards the end of each interval of those works that are divided into acts, a group of brass players appears on the balcony above Ludwig's extension and plays a fanfare based on a motive from the act of the opera that is about to start inside. They play three times before the performance begins or continues. It is a great Bayreuth tradition, and the magnificent playing gives you a hint of what you will hear inside.

Here are the motives used, as specified by Richard Wagner:

TANNHÄUSER
Act I - Hunt motive
Act II - Opening of the Entry of the Guests
Act III - Pardon motive

LOHENGRIN
Act I - The King's Call
Act II - The Mystery of the Name (Nie sollst du mich befragen)
Act III - Grail motive

TRISTAN UND ISOLDE
Act I - Young Sailor's Song
Act II - Death motive
Act III - Fragment of Shepherd's Melody

DIE MEISTERSINGER
Act I - The Masters' motive (opening of prelude)
Act II - Serenade
Act III - Fanfare of the Guilds

DER RING DES NIBELUNGEN
Das Rheingold - Donner's Thunder (He-da! He-da He-do!)
Die Walküre
Acts I and II - Sword motive (short form)
Act III - Sword motive (long form)
Siegfried
Act I - Siegfried's Horn Call (short form)
Act II - Siegfried's Horn Call (long form)
Act III - Siegfried the Hero
Götterdämmerung
Act I - Alberich's Curse on the Ring
Act II - Gibichung Horn Call
Act III - Valhalla motive

PARSIFAL
Act I - Redemption or Fellowship motive
Act II - Parsifal's motive (initial form)
Act III - Variant of Redemption motive

Interestingly, Richard Wagner did not specify a fanfare for Der fliegende Holländer, therefore before the start of this one act work, a motive from the opening of the overture is used as a fanfare.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 11, 2011, 03:36:55 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 10, 2011, 05:05:49 PM
Or as silly as a hurdy-gurdy version of Die Winterreise, huh...

You know I have nothing against transcriptions. I'm not a purist. I own Stokowski's Bach and Walter/Wendy's Switched-on Bach. One of my favorite pieces is Hindemith's brilliant Fliegende Holländer parody. I played many band transcriptions of the classics, including Wagner, in high school. I might buy the Philip Jones CD for myself. But that's all beside the point. Snyprrr asked (seriously or not) "I don't really want to hear Pictures at an Exhibition for brass, but Wagner? Is this a good idea for a first Wagner cd?"No, it is not a good idea. If he's serious about coming to grips with Wagner then he needs to hear Wagner, not a transcription. It's telling that he won't accept anything less than Mussorgsky for Mussorgsky but he's willing to buy bastardized Wagner. He needs someone to straighten him out. I accept that role  ;D

QuoteWhatever does the trick, I suppose.

In theory, yes...and if Snyprrr were 12 years old and unfamiliar with classical music I might suggest somethng like that. But the guy's a veteran. What possible problem could he have hearing Wagner's own orchestrations? Why would he not want to start with the originals? That he even asks the question convinces me he's not really serious. Maybe he became temporarily bored with piano quintets and string quartets and decided to make mischief elsewhere  :D

In any case, David Ross gave him the correct answer shortly after Snyprrr's first appearance here: if he wants Wagner without the caterwauling, he should buy Szell's bleeding chunks. P. Jones can be his second purchase.

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bigshot on February 11, 2011, 01:33:29 PM
Stoke did some nice symphonic synthesises of the Wagner operas.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Bulldog on February 11, 2011, 02:06:26 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 11, 2011, 03:36:55 AM

In theory, yes...and if Snyprrr were 12 years old and unfamiliar with classical music I might suggest somethng like that. But the guy's a veteran. What possible problem could he have hearing Wagner's own orchestrations? Why would he not want to start with the originals? That he even asks the question convinces me he's not really serious. Maybe he became temporarily bored with piano quintets and string quartets and decided to make mischief elsewhere  :D

Is he ever serious?  The way he writes and what he writes give me the impression that he has no interest in being taken seriously.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on February 11, 2011, 03:26:28 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 11, 2011, 03:36:55 AMIn any case, David Ross gave him the correct answer shortly after Snyprrr's first appearance here: if he wants Wagner without the caterwauling, he should buy Szell's bleeding chunks. P. Jones can be his second purchase.

I never made any headway with Wagner with the bleeding chunks approach.  In anything past Rienzi, the orchestral interlude doesn't reach the destination, it transitions to something else and leaves you hanging.  Only the real thing works, in my experience.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bigshot on February 11, 2011, 05:36:21 PM
I agree, but it kinda depends on what version they're using. Wagner had concert versions of some of the bits from the Ring that were written to have self contained endings. Stoki's Symphonic Synthesises are taken from a lot of places in the score of the operas, but they're worked into a sort of tone poem format that functions well enough as what it is... Not a replacement for the original, but nice as what it is.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on February 12, 2011, 03:07:48 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on February 11, 2011, 03:26:28 PM
I never made any headway with Wagner with the bleeding chunks approach. ...

Different ways lead to Rome. Clearly, bleeding chunks would be able to kindle an interest in Wagner that aims at a different aspect of his work than being exposed to the works-as-such... but that's fine.

Whatever kindles the interest -- even in aspects that do not pertain to the opera as a whole. Beauty of a single movement... the portrayal of emotions like irony (excerpt T&I, Act 1), the heightened sense of yearning and true love (excerpt Rheingold, Scene 3??, Fasolt's declaration of love)... these bits are just seconds long... but might well suffice to interest some (not all) in some (not all) aspects of Wagner which has them explore more later (or not). Most people, though perhaps not the majority of us GMG-geeks, will have approached Wagner through non-vocal venues. (It'd be great stuff if people didn't interrupt it with screaming all the time.)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on February 12, 2011, 05:18:18 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 12, 2011, 03:07:48 AM
Different ways lead to Rome. Clearly, bleeding chunks would be able to kindle an interest in Wagner that aims at a different aspect of his work than being exposed to the works-as-such... but that's fine.

Most people, though perhaps not the majority of us GMG-geeks, will have approached Wagner through non-vocal venues. (It'd be great stuff if people didn't interrupt it with screaming all the time.)

  This upsets me, why is it Wagner and only Wagner that has to be "deconstructed" in order to become accessible?


  Take a it like a man or don't take it at all that's what I say!!!!!

marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on February 12, 2011, 06:18:00 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 12, 2011, 03:07:48 AM
(It'd be great stuff if people didn't interrupt it with screaming all the time.)
;D   ;)

Quote from: marvinbrown on February 12, 2011, 05:18:18 AM
  This upsets me, why is it Wagner and only Wagner that has to be "deconstructed" in order to become accessible?
Have you heard much 20th Century music yet?

Note that Wagner's ridiculously long, self-indulgent, turgid and tuneless "music dramas" present special challenges even for the subset of classical music lovers who appreciate opera.  If he weren't such a special case, he wouldn't attract so many fans who feel that overcoming the challenges and loving him unreservedly makes them superior to everyone else.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on February 12, 2011, 06:36:41 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 12, 2011, 03:07:48 AM
(excerpt Rheingold, Scene 3??, Fasolt's declaration of love)

This may be nitpicking but because this is about Wagner drama... yeah, I remember when Fasolt went to Nibelheim with Loge and Wotan and confessed his love to Alberich in scene 3. His desire for Freia in scene 2 was just a cover for his homosexuality. Who would pick hot chick when you can have handsome Alberich? Take that Rhinemaidens!

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Melot was really jealous because Isolde stole his Tristan.  ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on February 12, 2011, 07:08:25 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 12, 2011, 06:18:00 AM
;D   ;)
Have you heard much 20th Century music yet?

Note that Wagner's ridiculously long, self-indulgent, turgid and tuneless "music dramas" present special challenges even for the subset of classical music lovers who appreciate opera.  If he weren't such a special case, he wouldn't attract so many fans who feel that overcoming the challenges and loving him unreservedly makes them superior to everyone else.

  Ok now you are being self righteous  $:) ........

marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on February 12, 2011, 07:42:31 AM
Quote from: Alberich on February 12, 2011, 06:36:41 AM

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Melot was really jealous because Isolde stole his Tristan.  ;D

I can remember reading that as a mainspring of one recent production. I think it was in NY, but not the Met.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on February 12, 2011, 07:48:16 AM
I enjoy this a lot.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Nno8C8asL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Well played, good sound. However, it is not a disc of highlights, but a supposed symphony in four movements. I don't think it feels like a symphony, but it is of course crammed with great music.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on February 12, 2011, 08:07:22 AM
Quote from: knight on February 12, 2011, 07:48:16 AM
I enjoy this a lot.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Nno8C8asL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Well played, good sound. However, it is not a disc of highlights, but a supposed symphony in four movements. I don't think it feels like a symphony, but it is of course crammed with great music.

Mike

I must say I had the opposite reaction, bored to tears, and that from a person who owns at least 5 ring cycles.   :-\
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on February 12, 2011, 08:14:37 AM
You are just such a red-meat eater.  ;D

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: A.C. Douglas on February 12, 2011, 08:21:05 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on January 26, 2011, 08:54:02 AM
One aspect of Wagner's greatness - apart from the astonishing music - is, indeed, his penetrating insight into human nature....

To which David Ross replied:

Quote from: DavidRoss on January 26, 2011, 10:02:44 AM
I just don't get the "penetrating insight" bit.  Wagner's broad strokes seem more superficial to me than, say, da Ponte's characterizations in Le Nozze, and not even close to well-established literature, such as Shakespeare noted above.

The characterizations in Le Nozze are not da Ponte's but Mozart's. They're in the music, NOT the text, just as are the characterizations in all of Wagner's music-dramas. The text in the mature works of both composers is but the armature about which both the drama and the characterizations are built which text provides those concrete details which music alone is incapable of expressing.

Quote from: DavidRoss on January 26, 2011, 10:02:44 AMI keep trying to understand why so many heap so much praise on Wagner.  Examples that illustrate the claim would help a slow learner like me.

You will never understand no matter how many examples are supplied as you are a textbook case of the classic Wagner-hater; a hatred grounded in ignorance which ignorant state causes you no discomfort whatsoever.

ACD
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on February 12, 2011, 08:28:16 AM
[getting my popcorn and waiting for inevitable retribution   ;D]
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on February 12, 2011, 08:49:22 AM
I must say, If Ring would be symphony, Siegfried would definitely be it's scherzo.

But yes, listening to Wagner without singing is like watching Godfather 3 and ignoring Godfather 1 & 2.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on February 12, 2011, 08:50:40 AM
Quote from: Alberich on February 12, 2011, 08:49:22 AM
I must say, If Ring would be symphony, Siegfried would definitely be it's scherzo.

But yes, listening to Wagner without singing is like watching Godfather 3 and ignoring Godfather 1 & 2.

I nominate this as worst simile ever posted on this forum.  (And why would anyone ever watch Godfather 3 of their own free will?)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on February 12, 2011, 09:03:52 AM
Why would anyone ever listen Wagner without singing of their own free will?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on February 12, 2011, 09:06:50 AM
Quote from: Alberich on February 12, 2011, 09:03:52 AM
Why would anyone ever listen Wagner withour singing of their own free will?

That, I don't know.   :P
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bigshot on February 12, 2011, 09:54:18 AM
Only five? You're still a baby when it comes to Wagner!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on February 12, 2011, 01:16:18 PM
Quote from: Alberich on February 12, 2011, 06:36:41 AM
This may be nitpicking but because this is about Wagner drama... yeah, I remember when Fasolt went to Nibelheim with Loge and Wotan and confessed his love to Alberich in scene 3. His desire for Freia in scene 2 was just a cover for his homosexuality...

Scene 4, actually. If you listen to the music, it shows you that there's only one person in the whole Ring that loves without reservation, without holding back, without alterior motives... without the specter of incest in the background... and that's Fasolt loving Freia.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on February 12, 2011, 04:26:53 PM
Are you certain there? How about Act 1 of Walkure?

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on February 13, 2011, 12:17:56 AM
Oh yeah, I thought you meant Fasolt's "Ein Weib zu gewinnen, das wonnig und mild" etc. from scene 2. Yes, he clearly was disgusted in scene 4 when Freia is bartered for gold. Ironically, Fasolt is first character who bites the dust. Thought it is appropriate when considering subject: love vs greed/lust for power. Such idealistic character (at least compared to many others) has no chance to succeed in corrupted world.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on February 13, 2011, 01:46:25 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 12, 2011, 01:16:18 PM
Scene 4, actually. If you listen to the music, it shows you that there's only one person in the whole Ring that loves without reservation, without holding back, without alterior motives... without the specter of incest in the background... and that's Fasolt loving Freia.

Actually, I was wrong... I didn't mean "Freia, die Schöne...", I did mean Scene 2, after all ("ein Weib zu gewinnen, das wonnig und mild / bei uns Armen wohne"). I call it Fasolt's Shylock Moment...  "Hath not a [Giant]... senses, affections, passions; fed with / the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject / to the same diseases, heal'd by the same means...?
If you prick us, do we not bleed?If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die?"

But scene 4 underscores that he was the only earnest character on stage.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Walther von Stolzing on February 14, 2011, 10:52:55 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 12, 2011, 06:18:00 AM
Note that Wagner's ridiculously long, self-indulgent, turgid and tuneless "music dramas" present special challenges even for the subset of classical music lovers who appreciate opera.  If he weren't such a special case, he wouldn't attract so many fans who feel that overcoming the challenges and loving him unreservedly makes them superior to everyone else.

It's posts like this that make me feel it's not even worth the time and effort to share and explain my aesthetic response to Wagner with you. I mean I have no qualms with discussing my passion for his music dramas and offering pointers to people who don't quite get the same experience, don't know what they're missing, but genuinely want to understand the appeal for others. I'm just not sure that's the case with you. You go out of your way to blame your disconnect with Wagner's art on the composition and make-up of the works themselves, the composer, and most ridiculously the listener's and viewers that are truly moved by them. You've made it clear you enjoy baiting people on to see what kind of response you can get out of them. I suppose for humor. Although it doesn't strike me as all that funny: anytime you make disparaging and contemptuous remarks about a topic that people hold dear to their hearts you're bound to get angry responses in return. If you actually believe that Wagner fans have to "overcome" anything, or only want to feel "special" than I feel even sorrier for you. Believe it or not, getting to know Wagner's music dramas forwards and backwards, discovering all of the little nuances and their many layers, was one of the most rewarding experiences of my life. It's not an act, and I don't heap praise on these works to set myself apart. I'm sure it's the same for others. We heap praise because the works stir up emotions in us that very few other works of art are able to. I don't love him unreservedly -- although I have many fewer reservations than you -- and acknowledge not all of his work, at all times, is equally inspired. But on the whole, by and large, they strike me as momentous works of art, boundless in their creativity and astounding in their sheer beauty. I guess it's too much to consider that great art will not always resonate with everyone, and their can be a wide array of responses to it -- all of which are valid.

If you really wished to understand Wagner on a deeper level I wonder why instead of antagonizing fans on message boards you don't spend the time reading the thoughts of the many critics, philosophers, and musicologists who have spent the time analyzing the works and explaining (in a much more thorough and profound way then you are likely to get from random posters on a message board) exactly what it is that makes Wagner's art so effective. Exactly what makes him a great dramatist, a great composer, etc. Writers like Thomas May, Bryan Magee, Deryck Cooke, and M. Owen Lee. They really do take the time to address the concerns you have about Wagner. So check them out.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 14, 2011, 11:35:16 AM
If any of you are in or near Chicago and care, you should go hear the new Lohengrin playing at the Lyric Opera. I just went for opening night last Friday. Johan Botha is absolutely teriffic in the title role. Must be heard. Effortlessly projecting voice with wonderful control. Georg Zeppenfeld is an excellent King Heinrich, Emily McGee, well-known from Barenboim's recording, is Elsa - a little past her peak perhaps, she took a little while to get into gear in the first act, but was superb in acts 2 & 3. Michaela Schuster sings Ortrud and Telramund is Greer Grimsley. Andrew Davis does a fine enough job in the pit. Staging is rather traditional but minimal in terms of sets. Works quite effectively.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on February 14, 2011, 11:38:16 AM
Howdy, Walther.  Like most folks, you sure can read a lot into what others say.  And--as usual in such cases--you make a lot of unfounded assumptions that are wrong.  I actually like Wagner and have enjoyed much of his music and some aspects of his theatre for more than thirty years, and I have read some of the critics you mention and others.  Enjoying him, however, does not require blindness to his substantial flaws.  And they ARE substantial--i.e. "ridiculously long, self-indulgent, turgid, and tuneless."  These are not qualities generally associated with successful drama or opera.

I do get a kick out of baiting fanboys of the sort I described.  Note that I made no statement remotely suggesting that all Wagner fans qualify as such fanboys.  It's deliciously ironic, however, that a notoriously pompous and fatuous fanboy of the sort I had in mind appeared soon afterward for the sake of attacking me personally. 

My purpose, however, is not to taunt the unreachable, but rather to provoke some dialogue:  What makes Wagner "such a special case" that he's satisfying IN SPITE of the obvious flaws, which I am hardly the first to decry?  What in his characterizations demonstrates the penetrating insight into human nature that some claim to find in them?  And there are some interested in such discussions, but they are relatively few compared to the number of those who respond with personal attacks, as if heaping scorn on a apostate somehow validates their inflated opinions of both little Dickie and themselves. 

And, BTW, if you like Wagner so much then I hope you'll find time for the current Met production of The Ring.  Das Rheingold, broadcast internationally in live HD, was so compelling that even my wife enjoyed it and is looking forward to Die Walküre.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on February 14, 2011, 12:08:00 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 14, 2011, 11:38:16 AM
Howdy, Walther.  Like most folks, you sure can read a lot into what others say. ... I do get a kick out of baiting fanboys of the sort I described.  Note that I made no statement remotely suggesting that all Wagner fans qualify as such fanboys....

Although it should be said {and I sense agreement on this}, that given his {very easy-to-understand} mis-reading of your post, W.von S's. statement was actually a very carefully considered and reasonable response. Precisely the opposite of the hysterical fan-boy ad hominems that you were half expecting (and half getting).
I, for one, enjoyed reading it, even knowing that he was preaching to the [associate] choir [member] much more than he could have been aware of.  ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on February 14, 2011, 12:26:57 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 14, 2011, 12:08:00 PM
Although it should be said {and I sense agreement on this}, that given his {very easy-to-understand} mis-reading of your post, W.von S's. statement was actually a very carefully considered and reasonable response. Precisely the opposite of the hysterical fan-boy ad hominems that you were half expecting (and half getting).
I, for one, enjoyed reading it, even knowing that he was preaching to the [associate] choir [member] much more than he could have been aware of.  ;)
Yes.   ;)

And in the interim I had forgotten what Walther seemed not to notice--that the statements he quoted were made in helpful response to another poster's question, taking it at face value and attempting to explain, as he put it, "why Wagner and only Wagner has to be 'deconstructed' in order to be accessible."  Unfortuanately the response rubbed him the wrong way and he spurned it, suggesting that he might not have meant his question in earnest.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bigshot on February 14, 2011, 12:52:08 PM
You know, there are plenty of people who would say that ALL opera is "ridiculously long, self-indulgent, turgid, and tuneless."

Personally, I find that in the case of Wagner, the same things that might be called substantial flaws could also be listed among his chief virtues. Long or epic? Self-indulgent or intensely personal on a deep emotional level? Turgid or broad structural architecture? Tuneless or the unique musical expressiveness of the leitmotif? It's all a matter of the criteria you select to judge by.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on February 14, 2011, 01:23:31 PM
Quote from: bigshot on February 14, 2011, 12:52:08 PM
You know, there are plenty of people who would say that ALL opera is "ridiculously long, self-indulgent, turgid, and tuneless."
Yep.  That's why my answer to Marvin began by qualifying Wagner appreciation as a subset of opera fans, themselves a subset of classical music fans, themselves a subset of music fans, themselves a subset (though I suspect a large one) of all persons.  However, even in the context of opera, Wagner's music dramas (not really operas, are they?) are long and dramatically inert--due to their creator's extraordinary self-indulgence--and quite lacking in the sort of tunefulness that contributes to the appeal of Verdi, Mozart, Rossini, and Puccini.

QuotePersonally, I find that in the case of Wagner, the same things that might be called substantial flaws could also be listed among his chief virtues. Long or epic? Self-indulgent or intensely personal on a deep emotional level? Turgid or broad structural architecture? Tuneless or the unique musical expressiveness of the leitmotif? It's all a matter of the criteria you select to judge by.
The limited appeal of Wagner's music dramas even among that small element of the public predisposed to enjoy such stuff suggests that those who regard such things as virtues are the special cases.  Hence my response to Marvin's question wondering why so many don't "get" Wagner and require special assistance to understand why some love him in spite of what most folks recognize as grave flaws.  And surely you understand why the superior attitude of Wagnerites toward those who don't share their infatuation is more off-putting than helpful?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: A.C. Douglas on February 14, 2011, 02:12:50 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss_(aka "Sherman Peabody") on February 14, 2011, 11:38:16 AM
I do get a kick out of baiting fanboys of the sort I described.  Note that I made no statement remotely suggesting that all Wagner fans qualify as such fanboys.  It's deliciously ironic, however, that a notoriously pompous and fatuous fanboy of the sort I had in mind appeared soon afterward for the sake of attacking me personally.

You get a kick out of baiting Wagner fanboys, do you? No, you don't. What you get a kick out of is baiting Wagner fanboys who play your game by your terms, and are either incompetent or too nonconfrontational to hoist you with your own petard. Well, I'm neither as you're well aware. So let's see how you handle this Wagner fanboy —  you know, the one you labeled "notoriously pompous and fatuous." What's that? How do I know you're referring to me? Simple, my boy. It's your favorite insult wherever and whenever I'm concerned.

But on to things of substance.

I called you a textbook case of the classic Wagner-hater; a hatred born of ignorance. Well, golly gosh. Maybe I'm wrong about that. Let's see.

You accused Wagner of being "ridiculously long, self-indulgent, turgid, and tuneless." As you've asked others to explain what makes Wagner such a special case, and what in his characterizations demonstrates the penetrating insight into human nature that some claim to find in them, and called for examples, in that same spirit I ask you to explain your above apparently imbecile remark (and please note, I said "apparently"), give specific examples to support your assertion and, of course, be prepared to defend both your explanation and your examples.

I await with bated breath that explanation and those supporting examples.

ACD
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 14, 2011, 02:16:28 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 14, 2011, 11:38:16 AM
Das Rheingold, broadcast internationally in live HD, was so compelling that even my wife enjoyed it and is looking forward to Die Walküre.


What did she like about it? And you enjoyed it, too?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on February 14, 2011, 02:45:00 PM
Quote from: A.C. Douglas on February 14, 2011, 02:12:50 PM
Well, I'm neither.
Wrong again.

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 14, 2011, 02:16:28 PM
What did she like about it? And you enjoyed it, too?
She said
Quoteit was like the ORIGINAL Lord of the Rings Trilogy for classical music buffs. I completely bought the ludicrous storyline when I thought of it as a fantasy/science fiction story. The sets were magic and the close-ups of the singers made me really buy the emotional content of what they were singing about. I cared. I was completely engaged in a magical story that had music so expressively woven into it (and performed so fabulously) that the music was the setting, the music WAS the story. Wagner made something more than music + costumes + sets + story. The sum of these parts was in a new dimension for me. It was jaw-dropping and utterly absorbing.
Yes, I thought it was terrific and wrote about it elsewhere on the forum.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on February 14, 2011, 02:49:18 PM
Quote from: Sherman Peabody on February 14, 2011, 02:45:00 PMShe saidYes, I thought it was terrific and wrote about it elsewhere on the forum.

And I missed it.   >:(  What do I have to look forward to, Die Walkure?  How much special effects can they deploy to distract from a cranky old man leaning on his spear and complaining for 45 minutes?   ???
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on February 14, 2011, 02:53:24 PM
Ah, thank God for the "ignore user" button. And CLICK!

In unrelated news: Just watched the Highlights of the "La Fura dels Baus" Ring from Valencia... promising on paper, with their penchant for innovative use of video/graphics/stages... and I suppose something great could have come out of it... but from what I've seen so far, it's rather a disappointment.

La Fura dels Baus is great at doing human pyramids, preferably with naked people... and they have a fine first scene in Rheingold (with a sympathetic Alberich and water-bucket retained Rheinmaidens), but later one one can't shake the feeling that they use the very latest in technology... but because it's so new, it's still very primitive. Sort of like early graphics in computer games were... (Larry Leisure Suite (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSGqnzK7xYg) in Green & Black on an IMB 086!) Cutting edge and horrible at the same time.

The non-photographic imagery used looks cheap and cheesy... the mustard-golden baby looks like as unnatural Koons' balloon dog and stolen from 2001 Space Odyssey, to boot. The costumes are hokey in the case of the Gods; all realism in the acting abandoned (Loge's only real strong point being his Segway, which zirrrrrrwheeees around on stage with the kind of electric fizziness that Loge's music exudes. Very droll, in a good way. But little of the rest. Wotan looks ridiculous; the ideas for costumes/design seemingly half-heartedly inspired from the Star Wars prequels.  The singers are mostly fat, ugly, and ungainly voiced... Siegmund's wobble whenever he holds a note longer than half a bar becomes an un-rhythmic nightmare... The acting and stage direction (personenregie) is appalling, in places. I know we're spoiled from the theater-perfection and psychological depth of the P.Chereau Ring (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/09/chreau-ring-cycle-making-of.html)... but even if we weren't, this could hardly be excusable. Freia & Wotan just standing there, immobile, with their backs to the audience while allegedly moving toward Walhall while Loge does his thing. Argh! Small item, but effectively annoying for its incredible carelessness and unloving treatment.

Well, what's the point of continuing. (Not before I've not seen a bit of Siegfried & G'Daemmerung, at least.) So far it looks like a hugely wasted great opportunity.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on February 14, 2011, 03:25:54 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on February 14, 2011, 02:49:18 PM
And I missed it.   >:(  What do I have to look forward to, Die Walkure?  How much special effects can they deploy to distract from a cranky old man leaning on his spear and complaining for 45 minutes?   ???
Odds are that LePage and Levine will make it as compelling as possible.  For more info re. the production, see http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/19/arts/music/19ring.html and visit the Met site at http://www.metoperafamily.org/metopera/season/production.aspx?id=11120
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on February 14, 2011, 03:42:00 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on February 14, 2011, 02:49:18 PM
What do I have to look forward to, Die Walkure?  How much special effects can they deploy to distract from a cranky old man leaning on his spear and complaining for 45 minutes?   ???

:)  That's a risk you'll take with Levine, who (at least in the 80s) was/is prone to celebrate every bloody moment in Wagner. What I love about Thielemann in Wagner is that he just zips by all the secondary stuff and indulges only the highlights... but in a away that makes you a.) feel that everything is a highlight and b.) without ever noticing the often radical shifts in tempo. The "invisible Fast-Forward button", I call it. It's a gift.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on February 14, 2011, 03:44:44 PM
Levine really digs his Ring, and I imagine that his powers with Wagner benefit from the breadth of his musical interests. Certainly I do enjoy the Levine-led Parsifal in The Bayreuth Cube. (Holy Toledo, The Cube is now selling for $177 new . . . .)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: A.C. Douglas on February 14, 2011, 03:48:18 PM
Quote from: Sherman Peabody_(aka DavidRoss) on February 14, 2011, 02:45:00 PM
[Changing his online name from DavidRoss to "Sherman Peabody", and responding to A.C. Douglas's challenge] Wrong again.

Ah! I take it then, DavidRoss, that means you decline to accept my challenge.

Gee. What a surprise.

ACD
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: A.C. Douglas on February 14, 2011, 04:04:24 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on February 14, 2011, 02:49:18 PM
And I missed it.   >:(  What do I have to look forward to, Die Walkure?  How much special effects can they deploy to distract from a cranky old man leaning on his spear and complaining for 45 minutes?   ???

Musically, you didn't miss much with the Met's new Rheingold, and the Lepage staging got pretty much of a drubbing from the more knowledgeable and discriminating MSM critics (Alex Ross, Martin Bernheimer, and Anne Midgette). As for Die Walküre, I'm afraid it's a crap shoot as is the rest of the cycle vis-à-vis the staging unless Lepage gets his act together, and musically, well, I guess that's a crap shoot as well.

Damn shame.

ACD
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bigshot on February 14, 2011, 06:09:04 PM
Sherman, why did you quote my post when you didn't intend to understand and reply to it?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on February 14, 2011, 09:33:14 PM
Going back to something that has been repeated several times: Wager = tunelessness. When Tannhauser was first given some critic or other claimed the same. I do find Wagner overlong, I do get annoyed when he slowly tells me something three times...but tuneless? That accusation puzzles me.

By the way ACD....would I be correct in assuming that you have not seen any of the performances you so neatly trash?

Knight
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on February 14, 2011, 10:05:30 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on February 14, 2011, 02:49:18 PM
And I missed it.   >:(  What do I have to look forward to, Die Walkure?  How much special effects can they deploy to distract from a cranky old man leaning on his spear and complaining for 45 minutes?   ???

I can't wait for Tosca. Invincible chief of police is beaten by a chick.

And to Sherman: I would also like to hear how the hell Wagner's operas are "ridiculously long, self-indulgent, turgid, and tuneless."

4-5 hours with such divine music and story is actually way too short if you ask me. And Wagner has almost infinite amount of immortal tunes and they (unlike with, say, Rossini) serve the whole purpose both musically and dramatically.

Quote: "it was like the ORIGINAL Lord of the Rings Trilogy for classical music buffs. I completely bought the ludicrous storyline when I thought of it as a fantasy/science fiction story. The sets were magic and the close-ups of the singers made me really buy the emotional content of what they were singing about. I cared. I was completely engaged in a magical story that had music so expressively woven into it (and performed so fabulously) that the music was the setting, the music WAS the story. Wagner made something more than music + costumes + sets + story. The sum of these parts was in a new dimension for me. It was jaw-dropping and utterly absorbing."

One of the differences being: Tolkien used almost every possible cliché that already existed and mostly black and white characters (with some exceptions such as Saruman, Grima Wormtongue, protagonists thinking that orcs are irredeemable because they are orcs etc.). Btw, I apologize for the terrible fail with quote.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 14, 2011, 11:17:22 PM
Quote from: Sherman Peabody on February 14, 2011, 02:45:00 PM
She saidYes, I thought it was terrific and wrote about it elsewhere on the forum.

I am glad to read you and your wife, for this time at least, fell under Wagner's spell. It should make it a bit more understandable why people should be so fascinated by his work.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: A.C. Douglas on February 15, 2011, 12:23:27 AM
Quote from: knight66 on February 14, 2011, 09:33:14 PMBy the way ACD....would I be correct in assuming that you have not seen any of the performances you so neatly trash?

If by "so neatly trash" you're referring to my comments on the stagings of specific Eurotrash productions, and if by "seen" you mean in the opera house, then, no, I've seen none and have no intention of ever seeing any of them in the opera house unless I'm paid serious money — up front and in cash — to do so. I have, of course, seen DVDs of some of them, but by no means all.

Rightly or wrongly, I get the impression from your question that you think my not seeing the stagings in the flesh, so to speak, disqualifies me from commenting on them. Is that in fact your thinking?

ACD
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: greg on February 15, 2011, 05:18:51 AM
Quote from: bigshot on February 14, 2011, 12:52:08 PM
You know, there are plenty of people who would say that ALL opera is "ridiculously long, self-indulgent, turgid, and tuneless."

Personally, I find that in the case of Wagner, the same things that might be called substantial flaws could also be listed among his chief virtues. Long or epic? Self-indulgent or intensely personal on a deep emotional level? Turgid or broad structural architecture? Tuneless or the unique musical expressiveness of the leitmotif? It's all a matter of the criteria you select to judge by.
Yes, exactly.  ;D
And those are all good qualities if written by a master!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on February 15, 2011, 07:16:10 AM
Quote from: knight66 on February 14, 2011, 09:33:14 PM
Going back to something that has been repeated several times: Wager = tunelessness. When Tannhauser was first given some critic or other claimed the same. I do find Wagner overlong, I do get annoyed when he slowly tells me something three times...but tuneless? That accusation puzzles me.
Thanks for asking, Mike.  The claim isn't that his music is unmelodic, but tuneless (an artificial distinction made to press the point). Wagner's music dramas lack those catchy phrases and four-bar melodies that stick in the audience's heads like advertising jingles and which they hum repeatedly while leaving the theatre.  Think of the ride of the Valkyries motif, which may be the most widely recognized tune in the Ring. 

Most popular music lovers and probably most opera lovers enjoy relatively simple three-verse songs built on such tunes.  Wagner's Ring isn't about that, isn't structured that way, and doesn't have any Ach, ich fühl's to woo the mainstream.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on February 15, 2011, 07:17:36 AM
Quote from: bigshot on February 14, 2011, 06:09:04 PM
Sherman, why did you quote my post when you didn't intend to understand and reply to it?
bigshot, there must be something wrong with your browser for I responded at some length in the same post where I quoted you.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 15, 2011, 07:39:35 AM
Quote from: Sherman Peabody on February 15, 2011, 07:16:10 AM
Wagner's music dramas lack those catchy phrases and four-bar melodies that stick in the audience's heads like advertising jingles and which they hum repeatedly while leaving the theatre.

Huh?! What if anything else are the leitmotifs? Wagner practically invented the concept of catchy tunes. I must think that you never went to an actual performance of a Wagner opera and listened to the crowd afterwards. Apart from Parsifal, which lacks memorable tunes aside from the "Dresden Amen", and Tristan, which is too chromatic for most people to reproduce even in their heads, let alone by whistling or singing, the rest are full of catchy tunes. I just went to Logengrin on Friday and I can't imagine anyone there doesn't remember the "Nie sollst du mich befragen" or the "Mein lieber Schwan" themes after that performance. You can't go to a performance of Holländer and not remember the main horn theme. etc. etc. Your biases are blocking your view of reality here a bit.

Quote from: Sherman Peabody on February 15, 2011, 07:16:10 AM
Most popular music lovers and probably most opera lovers enjoy relatively simple three-verse songs built on such tunes.  Wagner's Ring isn't about that, isn't structured that way, and doesn't have any Ach, ich fühl's to woo the mainstream.

This is a really bizarre statement. Ach ich fühl's is a very complex aria, not strophic at all. No two lines follow the same tune. Most casual operagoers won't remember that tune when they leave a performance of Magic flute. They'll remember the birdcatcher's songs and the Queen and Sarastro's In diesen heil'gen Hallen, maybe Monostatos' aria. All truly memorable opera tunes, are simple motives that are repeated throughout. Wagner has lots of them, while Ach ich fühl's is exactly the one aria from the Magic Flute that doesn't have any repetition at all and isn't simple either. What bizarre comparisons you make!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on February 15, 2011, 08:07:39 AM
Quote from: Alberich on February 14, 2011, 10:05:30 PM
And to Sherman: I would also like to hear how the hell Wagner's operas are "ridiculously long, self-indulgent, turgid, and tuneless."
For tuneless, see my response to Mike, above.  For turgid, see Scarpia's point about the dramatic flaccidity of "45 minutes of Wotan recapping everything while leaning on his spear."  Yes, I know it's not really 45 minutes...it just seems like it!  Ridiculously long:  50% longer than the average opera, largely because of all the notoriously "dull quarter hours."  Self-indulgent:  Unwillingness to edit himself conscientiously enough to eliminate those dull quarter hours that quash dramatic momentum, or to enlist the aid of a skilled dramatist to write the libretto instead of doing it himself.

But surely you already know all that.  You, personally, might respond differently.  You're in love with the works and can't get enough.  If the Ring went on for another 10 or 20 hours you'd still feel that you can't get enough of it.

That's great.  I just ask that you bear in mind that "Art" is something that takes place among the artist, the artifact, and the audience.  That you and others respond ecstatically to the Ring has as much to do with you as with the Ring itself.  No one is saying that you are wrong for loving it.

If you wish to proselytize for the Ring, I suggest that appreciation of its weaknesses as well as its strengths may help you to understand why not everyone shares your unbridled appreciation.  Discussing what you love about it may encourage others to open their minds to it.  On the other hand, denying its obvious flaws weakens your credibility.  It's one thing to say, "It's not too long and you're an ass for thinking so!" and quite another to say, "Yes, I recognize that it's awfully long but if you are able to surrender yourself to the imaginary world and be carried along by the music like a dreamer floating on a raft in the sea, then you may get so caught up in the moment that time vanishes and you're unaware of its passing."

And note that castigating others who don't share your blind love tends to slam their minds closed.  Following that up by claiming that your enjoyment of the Ring makes you superior and them inferior makes them bolt the door and reinforces the stereotypes about Wagner and delusions of Aryan supremacy.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on February 15, 2011, 08:18:38 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 14, 2011, 11:17:22 PM
I am glad to read you and your wife, for this time at least, fell under Wagner's spell. It should make it a bit more understandable why people should be so fascinated by his work.
There's nothing new about that for me, but it was a first for my wife.  It will be interesting to see how she responds to Die Walküre.  And there's no trouble understanding why people are so fascinated by his work.  Anything so complex, ambitious, and revolutionary--not to mention influential--will naturally attract impassioned admirers, especially if it's regarded as "difficult" or "controversial."  The Ring is the closest thing I know in the musical world to Joyce's Ulysses in terms of the critical industry it spawned!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on February 15, 2011, 08:34:36 AM
Quote from: Mensch on February 15, 2011, 07:39:35 AM
Huh?! What if anything else are the leitmotifs? Wagner practically invented the concept of catchy tunes.
If you read on you would have seen that I specifically mentioned the Valkyrie leitmotif as a notable exception.  You may find Wagner a great crafter of catchy tunes.  I submit that most do not.  Perhaps I am wrong.

Do you really mean to claim that composers before Wagner did not write catchy tunes?

So, which aria from the Ring is as well known and beloved as Ach, ich fühl's?   
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bigshot on February 15, 2011, 08:58:00 AM
Quote from: Sherman Peabody on February 15, 2011, 08:34:36 AM
So, which aria from the Ring is as well known and beloved as Ach, ich fühl's?

That's easy! "Kill da wabbit" is without question the most famous and beloved aria in all of opera. It's more famous than "Hello Mudda, Hello Fadda". It's even more famous than that old Neopolitan song, "It's Now Or Never".
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Luke on February 15, 2011, 09:02:42 AM
You got the title wrong on that last one.



It's called Just One Cornetto, actually    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biL6zAMkOQs


;D

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 15, 2011, 09:03:01 AM
Quote from: Sherman Peabody on February 15, 2011, 08:34:36 AM
Do you really mean to claim that composers before Wagner did not write catchy tunes?

I never said that.

Quote from: Sherman Peabody on February 15, 2011, 08:34:36 AM
So, which aria from the Ring is as well known and beloved as Ach, ich fühl's?

You're comparing apples and oranges while looking for pears. As I tried to explain above, Ach ich fühl's doesn't even meet your expressed criteria for catchy, memorable tunes because of its complexity, lack of repetition and non-strophic nature. Secondly, if you're looking for arias in Wagner you are wedded to disappointment. May I propose that your dissatisfaction with Wagner has a lot more to do with your expecitations, which stand in the way of your enjoyment of his music, rather than the nature of the music itself? Mature Wagner did not write arias in the traditional sense and had no intention of ever doing so. To blame him for not accomplishing what he never sought out to do is a bit disingenuous. That said, I would submit that Brünnhilde's immolation scene (Starke Scheite) is at least as beloved.

It's funny that you keep mentioning the Magic Flute but keep looking at the wrong parts. Please listen again at the second half of the first act: The entire stretch from Zum Ziele führt dich diese Bahn, up to Führt diese beiden Fremdlinge in uns'ren Prüfungstempel ein and the chorus that concludes the act, is one uninterrupted stretch of music, that completely breaks up the traditional operatic concepts of aria, recitative/spoken scene, duet, etc. It is composed through as a single piece with a continuous harmonic development. This is Mozart at his most audacious, prefiguring mature Wagner by decades. In particular the entire scene between Tamino and the Speaker (Wo willst du kühner Fremdling hin?) is basically proto-Wagner. No arias, duets, no nothing. Just staged musical action without interruption.

This is, frankly, what I find most interesting in Wagner: when he writes uninterrupted musical drama, as he does in his mature operas. His earlier stuff like Holländer is basically Carl Maria von Weber on steriods. I can understand the criticism that Wagner *can feel* overlong, especially in turgidly staged productions with singers who can't act the parts and a conductor who doesn't know where he's going. But a) not all of his operas are necessarily like that (though the Ring and Parsifal have some exceedingly long stretches of pure narration), and b) it's more a matter of performance challenges, I think. If you do at some point feel like giving Wagner another chance, I might indeed recommend starting again with Lohengrin. It's in my opinion the most dramatically concise of Wagner's mature operas and is not too hard to bring off successfully on stage. There is little static narration at all, almost everything that is sung is dialogue that is in immediate furtherance of the plot.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on February 15, 2011, 09:11:03 AM
Quote from: Mensch on February 15, 2011, 09:03:01 AMYou're comparing apples and oranges while looking for pears. As I tried to explain above, Ach ich fühl's doesn't even meet your expressed criteria for catchy, memorable tunes because of its complexity, lack of repetition and non-strophic nature. Secondly, if you're looking for arias in Wagner you are wedded to disappointment. May I propose that your dissatisfaction with Wagner has a lot more to do with your expecitations, which stand in the way of your enjoyment of his music, rather than the nature of the music itself? Mature Wagner did not write arias in the traditional sense and had no intention of ever doing so. To blame him for not accomplishing what he never sought out to do is a bit disingenuous. That said, I would submit that Brünnhilde's immolation scene (Starke Scheite) is at least as beloved.

I'll speak for myself, since I have somewhat similar dissatisfaction with Wagner.  It is not that I want tunes or arias.  I want him to do what he does, but get on with it.  I would say Strauss in Salome did what Wagner did, but he did not let the drama grind to a halt while some character gave a half-hour narration of the previous act.  The characters were doing and the symphonic music was depicting their frame of mind and we could figure out for ourselves what their motivations were.  If Walkure was constructed as a tight bit of drama, we would know what was motivating Wotan better than Wotan did.  Isn't that what makes gripping Drama, when the characters are swept up in forces they don't understand, and we see?  How much more boring can it get than when the character has to stop and lecture you on what is going on?

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on February 15, 2011, 09:12:02 AM
Quote from: bigshot on February 15, 2011, 08:58:00 AM
That's easy! "Kill da wabbit" is without question the most famous and beloved aria in all of opera.
;D  Now we're talkin'! (Sure helps to have a sense of humor!  ;)  )
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 15, 2011, 09:35:51 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on February 15, 2011, 09:11:03 AM
I'll speak for myself, since I have somewhat similar dissatisfaction with Wagner.  It is not that I want tunes or arias.  I want him to do what he does, but get on with it.  I would say Strauss in Salome did what Wagner did, but he did not let the drama grind to a halt while some character gave a half-hour narration of the previous act.  The characters were doing and the symphonic music was depicting their frame of mind and we could figure out for ourselves what their motivations were.  If Walkure was constructed as a tight bit of drama, we would know what was motivating Wotan better than Wotan did.  Isn't that what makes gripping Drama, when the characters are swept up in forces they don't understand, and we see?  How much more boring can it get than when the character has to stop and lecture you on what is going on?

I know what you mean. It's a certain German poetic style that Wagner was emulating, since he mistakenly thought of himself as just as good a poet as he was a composer. It's also the reason why a lot of romantic German theater doesn't fare well outside of Germany. That said, I do think that Lohengrin does not really have those problems. Holländer, too, but that is an atypical work. I have to confess being less familiar with Tannhäuser and Meistersinger. And among those operas that do have their lengths, I find that often a non-staged concert performance is more compelling than a staged performance in the opera house. E.g. in 2000 or 2001 Barenboim did a concert performance of Tristan with the CSO and Waltraud Meier in Carnegie Hall that was spellbinding. You completely forgot about time.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on February 15, 2011, 09:38:46 AM
Quote from: Mensch on February 15, 2011, 09:03:01 AM
I never said that.
You said that Wagner practically invented catchy tunes.  The implication of "practically invented" is that catchy tunes scarcely existed before Wagner.  But rather than attributing that implicit claim to you directly, I gave you credit for not intending such an absurdity and asked if that was really what you meant to suggest. 

Quote from: Mensch on February 15, 2011, 09:03:01 AM
You're comparing apples and oranges while looking for pears. [etc]
On the other hand, you persist in reading things into my statements that (a) I did not say, (b) I did not imply, or (c) contradict what I have stated explicitly.  I'm not saying anything here particularly novel or difficult to grasp.  If you try understanding what I am saying rather than disputing what I'm not, I'm confident you will see my point.

For instance, that Wagner did not write songs--which most music fans including opera fans both love and expect--is one reason some regard his music as "tuneless."  At least we agree that he did not write songs, even if you doubt that has anything to do with, as Marvin put it:
Quote from: marvinbrown on February 12, 2011, 05:18:18 AM
...why is it Wagner and only Wagner that has to be "deconstructed" in order to become accessible?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 15, 2011, 09:46:03 AM
Quote from: Sherman Peabody on February 15, 2011, 09:38:46 AM
For instance, that Wagner did not write songs--which most music fans including opera fans both love and expect--is one reason some regard his music as "tuneless."  At least we agree that he did not write songs, even if you doubt that has anything to do with, as Marvin put it:

We're back to you blaming Wagner for not doing what he never wanted to do. And I disagree with Marvin, who in any case I think was referring to the extramusical baggage in Wagner, not the music as such. Wagner didn't write "songs" in your narrow sense. But if you'd open your ears, you'd notice that a lot of the composers you admire, already pointed in that directions, as you can see in the example above. Yet it's simply inaccurate to say that Wagner's music is "tuneless", a claim easily refuted with all the many familiar themes and leitmotives, from the Holländer horn call, to "kill the wabbit" to the Tristan chord, to Nie sollst du mich befragen, etc.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on February 15, 2011, 09:53:30 AM
Quote from: Mensch on February 15, 2011, 09:35:51 AM
I know what you mean. It's a certain German poetic style that Wagner was emulating, since he mistakenly thought of himself as just as good a poet as he was a composer.
More agreement, thank you...and the point goes to the length, turgidity, and self-indulgence that mars the work, at least in the sight of those accustomed to other standards of dramatic success and not predisposed to enjoy the "certain German poetic style Wagner was emulating."  And, as I've said several times before elsewhere, there is a significant difference between post-modern aesthetic standards and the late-19th Century Romanticism conditioning Wagner's approach.

To my mind--and perhaps Scarpia might agree--this touches on something that distinguishes a guy like Wagner from fellows like Beethoven.  Some of us, at least, see Beethoven and some other artists as having created works that transcend the style of their age and are so timeless that allowances need not be made for the conventions of the era for modern audiences to enjoy them. 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 15, 2011, 10:00:33 AM
Quote from: Sherman Peabody on February 15, 2011, 09:53:30 AM
More agreement, thank you...and the point goes to the length, turgidity, and self-indulgence that mars the work, at least in the sight of those accustomed to other standards of dramatic success and not predisposed to enjoy the "certain German poetic style Wagner was emulating."  And, as I've said several times before elsewhere, there is a significant difference between post-modern aesthetic standards and the late-19th Century Romanticism conditioning Wagner's approach.

To my mind--and perhaps Scarpia might agree--this touches on something that distinguishes a guy like Wagner from fellows like Beethoven.  Some of us, at least, see Beethoven and some other artists as having created works that transcend the style of their age and are so timeless that allowances need not be made for the conventions of the era for modern audiences to enjoy them.

Let's try a different tack: if Wagner's style is indeed so narrowly limited to the aesthetic of a bygone era as to require significant "allowances" from today's audiences to be "enjoyed", why do you think his core operatic output has not only endured to the present day, but indeed is among the most performed operas of any composer, and commands an annual summer festival that is sold out years in advance? Where is the global conspiracy that inflicts this "turgid" and "self-indulgent" style on the rest of the world, indoctrinating them into blind minions who willingly part with their hard earned money in order to spend a quarter of a day in uncomfortable seats subjected to this intolerable artifice?

It wouldn't hurt to have more substantive responses on my comments above re: Magic Flute and Lohengrin. Perhaps one could then at least get an inkling that you're processing what is being written, instead of constantly restating the same knee-jerk reactions.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 15, 2011, 10:01:57 AM
Quote from: Mensch on February 15, 2011, 09:35:51 AM
I know what you mean. It's a certain German poetic style that Wagner was emulating, since he mistakenly thought of himself as just as good a poet as he was a composer. It's also the reason why a lot of romantic German theater doesn't fare well outside of Germany.


Of which writers are you thinking? Wagner's biggest examples were Shakespeare and the Greeks. Of course he knew his Goethe and Schiller. Hebbel was a contemporary, Grabbe already long dead and neglected when Wagner really turned into 'Wagner'. And Kleist - who, to me, is most like Wagner in intensity and sublimity - was only rediscovered in the 20th century. So was Büchner.


Quote from: Sherman Peabody on February 15, 2011, 09:53:30 AM
To my mind--and perhaps Scarpia might agree--this touches on something that distinguishes a guy like Wagner from fellows like Beethoven.  Some of us, at least, see Beethoven and some other artists as having created works that transcend the style of their age and are so timeless that allowances need not be made for the conventions of the era for modern audiences to enjoy them.


The Wagnerian longueurs are what is 19th century about Wagner. Just like the clowns and the humour in Shakespeare don't always 'work' for us. That Beethoven is pithier than Wagner, and in the final analysis the greater composer, I personally have no doubt.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on February 15, 2011, 10:02:18 AM
Quote from: Mensch on February 15, 2011, 09:46:03 AM
We're back to you blaming Wagner for not doing what he never wanted to do. And I disagree with Marvin, who in any case I think was referring to the extramusical baggage in Wagner, not the music as such. Wagner didn't write "songs" in your narrow sense. But if you'd open your ears, you'd notice that a lot of the composers you admire, already pointed in that directions, as you can see in the example above. Yet it's simply inaccurate to say that Wagner's music is "tuneless", a claim easily refuted with all the many familiar themes and leitmotives, from the Holländer horn call, to "kill the wabbit" to the Tristan chord, to Nie sollst du mich befragen, etc.
You keep putting words into my mouth as if you are willfully misreading me and reciting your impression of tunefulness as if that refutes the general perception I referenced.  Have it your way:  Marvin's wrong, Wagner is not unique and doesn't require "deconstruction" for most to appreciate him, and the general public adores him with "Kill da Wabbit" only one among dozens of popular tunes known and loved by all. 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 15, 2011, 10:22:39 AM
Quote from: Sherman Peabody on February 15, 2011, 10:02:18 AM
You keep putting words into my mouth as if you are willfully misreading me and reciting your impression of tunefulness as if that refutes the general perception I referenced.  Have it your way:  Marvin's wrong, Wagner is not unique and doesn't require "deconstruction" for most to appreciate him, and the general public adores him with "Kill da Wabbit" only one among dozens of popular tunes known and loved by all.

The highlighted bit is your central mistake. You mistakenly believe that your visceral hatred of Wagner's work is the "general perception", that indeed nobody could possibly find anything tuneful about Wagner's tunes, that this is somehow objective, and that it is those of us who do like Wagner who are the weirdos, the social misfits.

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 15, 2011, 10:01:57 AM
Of which writers are you thinking? Wagner's biggest examples were Shakespeare and the Greeks. Of course he knew his Goethe and Schiller. Hebbel was a contemporary, Grabbe already long dead and neglected when Wagner really turned into 'Wagner'. And Kleist - who, to me, is most like Wagner in intensity and sublimity - was only rediscovered in the 20th century. So was Büchner.

Yes, Goethe and Schiller. Never played outside German-speaking lands with anywhere near the same frequency as other international poets of the same stature. It just doesn't translate very well. But perhaps I was a little off. It's also the inspiration of the medieval writers from whom Wagner gets his inspiration for his epics, like Wolfram von Eschenbach. It is clear that he admired the medieval Minnesang poetry and tried to erect a pedestal to it in the form of Tannhäuser.

But this whole discussion of different aesthetics of different eras is really beside the point. We in our classical music bubble tend to think that Beethoven is so transcendental. If that were the case, we wouldn't have to worry about funding for music education or declining audiences etc. The vast majority of people might remember the main theme from Ode to Joy but would rather commit suicide than sit through the entire 70 minutes of the 9th symphony, most of which is too abstract and indeed "tuneless" to make any sense to the average person. All of this stuff takes some getting used to the idiom, whether it's Beethoven or Wagner or Lully. It's all from a different planet in a sense. There is nothing objectively more accessible in one than the other. It's just a question of whether your immediate surroundings has provided you with something that can serve as an avenue into making sense of some of this. And likewise, authorial intent is not a sacred cow. If we can stage Wagner in a way more accessible to today's audiences that still conveys the drama of the text, I'm all for it. I've recently been fantasizing about a Ring staged as a Anime-style spectacular. Think Princess Mononoke and Akira.  ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bhodges on February 15, 2011, 10:26:09 AM
Quote from: Mensch on February 15, 2011, 10:22:39 AM
If we can stage Wagner in a way more accessible to today's audiences that still conveys the drama of the text, I'm all for it. I've recently been fantasizing about a Ring staged as a Anime-style spectacular. Think Princess Mononoke and Akira.  ;D

I think you're onto something.  ;D

--Bruce
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on February 15, 2011, 10:34:28 AM
Quote from: Mensch on February 15, 2011, 09:35:51 AM
I know what you mean. It's a certain German poetic style that Wagner was emulating, since he mistakenly thought of himself as just as good a poet as he was a composer. It's also the reason why a lot of romantic German theater doesn't fare well outside of Germany. That said, I do think that Lohengrin does not really have those problems. Holländer, too, but that is an atypical work. I have to confess being less familiar with Tannhäuser and Meistersinger. And among those operas that do have their lengths, I find that often a non-staged concert performance is more compelling than a staged performance in the opera house. E.g. in 2000 or 2001 Barenboim did a concert performance of Tristan with the CSO and Waltraud Meier in Carnegie Hall that was spellbinding. You completely forgot about time.

I do think there is a significant amount of Wagner which is free of this problem.  Rheingold and Tannhäuser are works I can enjoy unreservedly, without any temptation to skip ahead an act or two.  Tristan, I remember enjoying listening to Bohm's recording, but did not find compelling when I watched one of the DVD editions (a Barenboim Bayreuth video).
 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 15, 2011, 10:35:36 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on February 15, 2011, 10:34:28 AM
I do there there is a significant amount of Wagner which I find free of this problem.  Rheingold and Tannhäuser are works I can enjoy unreservedly, without any temptation to skip ahead an act or two.  Tristan, I remember enjoying listening to Bohm's recording, but did not find compelling when I watched one of the DVD editions (a Barenboim Bayreuth video).

Yes, there is so little meaningful stage action in Tristan, I'm not sure what I would do if I had to stage that.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wendell_E on February 15, 2011, 10:37:01 AM
Quote from: Brewski on February 15, 2011, 10:26:09 AM
I think you're onto something.  ;D

--Bruce

corrected  :D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 15, 2011, 10:43:39 AM
Quote from: Wendell_E on February 15, 2011, 10:37:01 AM
corrected  :D

;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bhodges on February 15, 2011, 10:44:53 AM
Quote from: Wendell_E on February 15, 2011, 10:37:01 AM
corrected  :D

;D  ;D  ;D

--Bruce
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: A.C. Douglas on February 15, 2011, 10:55:21 AM
Quote from: Sherman Peabody_aka DavidRoss (replying to "Alberich") on February 15, 2011, 08:07:39 AMFor tuneless, see my response to Mike, above.  For turgid, see Scarpia's point about the dramatic flaccidity of "45 minutes of Wotan recapping everything while leaning on his spear."  Yes, I know it's not really 45 minutes...it just seems like it!  Ridiculously long:  50% longer than the average opera, largely because of all the notoriously "dull quarter hours."  Self-indulgent:  Unwillingness to edit himself conscientiously enough to eliminate those dull quarter hours that quash dramatic momentum, or to enlist the aid of a skilled dramatist to write the libretto instead of doing it himself.

Interesting.

First, there are NO "notoriously 'dull quarter hours'" in Wagner's mature works (i.e., the music-dramas as opposed to the operas which are a different matter altogether). If anything in those works comes across as notoriously dull it's the fault either of the performance, the performers, the ignorance of the hearers, or any combination of the above. The example you cite (by reference to another poster's comment) is a perfect example to make my point.

Wotan's Die Walküre Act II soliloquy (which takes about 20 minutes total in performance, not 15) is not only anything but dull or a mere recap, but the dramatic lynchpin of the entire tetralogy — one of Wagner's most brilliant dramatic and musical strokes that's anything but "ridiculously long." It's in fact exactly as long as it needs to be dramatically, and not a measure longer. That's typical of mature Wagner. He is, in fact, one of the most economical composers who ever lived. Of course, if one is ignorant of what's being sung — verbatim — as it's being sung in that soliloquy but has only a general idea of what's being sung, then that soliloquy will most assuredly seem interminable and the sense of it a mere recap of prior incidents. Similarly, if the singer-actor is not of the first water both as singer and actor, it can also seem interminable. Further, any seeming recapping in that soliloquy is in fact no recapping at all but a re-viewing of prior incidents from a different vantage point as are, to use an example from a different medium, the seeming recappings in the film, Citizen Kane. And, of course, the soliloquy covers much that's not been covered before and is essential for an understanding of everything that follows not only in Die Walküre but in the entire tetralogy.

As for Wagner's alleged self-indulgence and his need to "enlist the aid of a skilled dramatist to write the libretto instead of doing it himself," that's patent rubbish and betrays an ignorance of both Wagner the music-dramatist and of his creative "method".

Wagner was one of the greatest dramatists who ever lived, but his genius as a dramatist cannot be found in his text alone as Wagner was not a mere dramatist such as, say, Shakespeare, Wagner's natural opposite in the world of letters, but a music-dramatist. His text cannot be assessed absent the music that was organically linked to it at the moment of its writing even though Wagner hadn't yet written so much as a measure of that music. Wagner's mature creative method — not a method he devised but something that was his uncalculated native way of going about the thing — was NOT to write the words, then compose music to accompany those words. As Wagner wrote the words, he "heard" in his mind's ear the "shape" and sense of the music that was to be linked to those words and, if need be, adjusted the words to suit. That creative method is what's responsible for the unparalleled organic oneness of music and text in mature Wagner, and why one cannot pull apart text and music in Wagner's mature works and hope to get the real sense of either, something Wagner discovered for himself only after writing the music for his first music-drama, Das Rheingold.

Well,  that's enough for now. No charge.

ACD
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on February 15, 2011, 11:08:05 AM
Quote from: Sherman Peabody on February 15, 2011, 10:02:18 AM
You keep putting words into my mouth as if you are willfully misreading me and reciting your impression of tunefulness as if that refutes the general perception I referenced.  Have it your way:  Marvin's wrong, Wagner is not unique and doesn't require "deconstruction" for most to appreciate him, and the general public adores him with "Kill da Wabbit" only one among dozens of popular tunes known and loved by all.

Quote from: Mensch on February 15, 2011, 09:46:03 AM
We're back to you blaming Wagner for not doing what he never wanted to do. And I disagree with Marvin, who in any case I think was referring to the extramusical baggage in Wagner, not the music as such. Wagner didn't write "songs" in your narrow sense. But if you'd open your ears, you'd notice that a lot of the composers you admire, already pointed in that directions, as you can see in the example above. Yet it's simply inaccurate to say that Wagner's music is "tuneless", a claim easily refuted with all the many familiar themes and leitmotives, from the Holländer horn call, to "kill the wabbit" to the Tristan chord, to Nie sollst du mich befragen, etc.

  Excuse me but what I was objecting to were some peoples' wishes to hear Wagner without words, deconstructed so that his music is played by a brass band to become more accessible!  This led me to object and ask  ;) why? oh why is it that Wagner and Wagner alone needs to be deconstructed so that SOME people find it accessible??

  marvin 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 15, 2011, 11:11:51 AM
Quote from: A.C. Douglas on February 15, 2011, 10:55:21 AM
It's in fact exactly as long as it needs to be dramatically, and not a note longer. That's typical of mature Wagner. He is, in fact, one of the most economical composers who ever lived.

Wagner was one of the greatest dramatists who ever lived, but his genius as a dramatist cannot be found in his text alone as Wagner was not a mere dramatist such as, say, Shakespeare, Wagner's natural opposite in the world of letters, but a music-dramatist.

Please stop writing! It's overinflated buffoons like yourself who turn the uninitiated off from this music. Anyone who writes such absurd hyperbole and actually believes it needs professional help. If you really think you're so smart and everyone needs to attend the ACD University before being permitted to have an opinion of Wagner, you'll soon be sitting alone in the opera house, in which case I hope you're obscenely wealthy, because otherwise it will be the end of staged productions of his music.

Wagner was human. Not a demigod. What he wrote is not beyond criticism. There is no question that certain of his works are more succinct, dramatically more easily borught off on stage, etc. than others.

And this...:

Quote from: A.C. Douglas on February 15, 2011, 10:55:21 AM
As for Wagner's alleged self-indulgence and his need to "enlist the aid of a skilled dramatist to write the libretto instead of doing it himself," that's patent rubbish and betrays an ignorance of both Wagner the music-dramatist and of his creative "method".

His text cannot be assessed absent the music that was organically linked to it at the moment of its writing even though Wagner hadn't yet written so much as a measure of that music. Wagner's mature creative method — not a method he devised but something that was his uncalculated native way of going about the thing — was NOT to write the words, then compose music to accompany those words. As Wagner wrote the words, he "heard" in his mind's ear the "shape" and sense of the music that was to be linked to those words and, if need be, adjusted the words to suit. That creative method is what's responsible for the unparalleled organic oneness of music and text in mature Wagner, and why one cannot pull apart text and music in Wagner's mature works and hope to get the real sense of either, something Wagner discovered for himself only after writing the music for his first music-drama, Das Rheingold.

... is just certifiable silliness that could only have been penned by a non-native German speaker. Show Wagner's librettos to any native speaker of German and their eyes will glaze over by page 3 at the latest. His is some of the most turgid prose ever penned, even for his period. Wagner, by no stretch of the imagination, was ever as skilled at capturing language with music as Janacek, Richard Strauss or Mozart, for all three of whom it was indeed inseparable from the music they wrote for their texts. Wagner is essential to the Western musical canon and his works need to be heard and will endure without doubt. But let's not give him accolades for things at which he did not particularly excel.

Quote from: marvinbrown on February 15, 2011, 11:08:05 AM
  Excuse me but what I was objecting to were some peoples' wishes to hear Wagner without words, deconstructed so that his music is played by a brass band to become more accessible!  This led me to object and ask  ;) why? oh why is it that Wagner and Wagner alone needs to be deconstructed so that SOME people find it accessible??

Thanks for clarifying.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on February 15, 2011, 11:14:07 AM
Quote from: Mensch on February 15, 2011, 11:11:51 AM
Please stop writing!

I think he may be channeling Wotan here.   ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bigshot on February 15, 2011, 11:26:14 AM
The narratives serve a purpose. They reveal the different perspectives of the various characters on the same events, and also internal struggle. Most operas deal with fairly black and white issues but the Ring is all a matter of whose perspective you're looking at it from.

In Siegfried, the dialogues between Siegfried and Mime and the Wanderer and Mime are actually funny if you understand the language. I discovered this when I saw the Ring in English in Seattle in the 80s.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on February 15, 2011, 11:33:18 AM
Quote from: Mensch on February 15, 2011, 07:39:35 AM
Apart from Parsifal, which lacks memorable tunes aside from the "Dresden Amen", and Tristan

Have to most respectfully disagree. I find it almost impossible to not memorize Parsifal's triumphant brass motive, "Reine Tor"-motiv, every time so moving "Faith", Klingsor's chromatic yet still clearly visible leitmotiv, Hero Tristan, Tristan chord, Kurwenal motive, lamenting shepherd's tune etc.

@Sherman: Is it that Wagner's operas are too long... or that other operas are too short? Implying that they are too long sounds like that when people are going to opera they just want to get out of there as soon as possible. Editing would be a sacrilege, especially when (like many others have noted) there is no single note that shouldn't be there. The apparent lack of action really depends on production and when looking at librettos (which also include Wagner's notes about scenery, positions and action) you can see that even in most passive scenes there is happening a lot of things (they of course don't necessarily fit into all productions, one reason why I prefer recordings instead of live, where you are free to use your imagination). And when action seemingly stops, the music that reminds us of all conflicts that still roam. Even though Wagner didn't necessarily agree with this, I am gonna say: "Music begins where words (action in this case) ends". You can also compare Sergio Leone's westerns with this: Leone felt that everything that eventually led to action is more important than action itself.

Edit: I apologize. I didn't mean to sound rude, Wagner is one of those topics where I may get little too excited.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: A.C. Douglas on February 15, 2011, 11:34:18 AM
Quote from: Mensch on February 15, 2011, 11:11:51 AMPlease stop writing! It's overinflated buffoons like yourself who turn the uninitiated off from this music. Anyone who writes such absurd hyperbole and actually believes it needs professional help. [..] Wagner was human. Not a demigod. What he wrote is not beyond criticism. There is no question that certain of his works are more succinct, dramatically more easily borught off on stage, etc. than others.

Have you some sort of cognitive deficit, sonny, or is it that you simply can't understand plain English? I never suggested or even so much as implied that Wagner was a demigod or that what he wrote was beyond criticism. Read again what I wrote, more slowly this time, and maybe you'll learn something you badly need to learn where Wagner is concerned. You could also do with some lessons in common courtesy and decency.

Quote from: Mensch on February 15, 2011, 11:11:51 AMAnd this...:is just certifiable silliness that could only have been penned by a non-native German speaker. Show Wagner's librettos to any native speaker of German and their eyes will glaze over by page 3 at the latest.

There's that cognitive deficit rearing its ugly head again. Didn't I just get finished instructing you that Wagner's text can NEVER be assessed apart from its organically linked music? Of course I did. Once again, read what I wrote again, slowly, and do make some sort of at least token effort to overcome your clear cognitive impediment.

There's a good fellow.

ACD

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 15, 2011, 11:38:33 AM
Wagner died two days ago, plus 128 years; in two years' time those who love his music will celebrate his bicentenary; and the arguments won't die down... What a man!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on February 15, 2011, 11:38:50 AM
Quote from: Mensch on February 15, 2011, 11:11:51 AM
Please stop writing! It's overinflated buffoons like yourself who turn the uninitiated off from this music. Anyone who writes such absurd hyperbole and actually believes it needs professional help.

Yeah! How dare you have an individual opinion... jerk.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 15, 2011, 11:46:07 AM
Quote from: A.C. Douglas on February 15, 2011, 11:34:18 AM
Have you some sort of cognitive deficit, sonny, or is it that you simply can't understand plain English? I never suggested or even so much as implied that Wagner was a demigod or that what he wrote was beyond criticism. Read again what I wrote, more slowly this time, and maybe you'll learn something you badly need to learn where Wagner is concerned. You could also do with some lessons in common courtesy and decency.

There's that cognitive deficit rearing its ugly head again. Didn't I just get finished instructing you that Wagner's text can NEVER be assessed apart from its organically linked music? Of course I did. Once again, read what I wrote again, slowly, and do make some sort of at least token effort to overcome your clear cognitive impediment.

You suffer from delusions of grandeur. You are in no position to "instruct" anyone. If you care at all about Wagner's music, it would do you well to acquire some grasp about how to interact with people in a less condescendingly pompous manner. It accomplishes the opposite of what you seek. ... Unless, of course, what you seek is to caress your precious little ego and convince yourself of your superiority over the rest of the world. Your choice.

BTW, you misspoke. It's not that "Wagner's text can NEVER be assessed apart from its organically linked music". Rather Wagner's text is certifiable crap without the music which elevates it onto spheres it would otherwise never reach. Thankfully the text isn't so bad as to impede the music's success, but your exalting it to something it simply isn't. Get over yourself.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on February 15, 2011, 11:46:50 AM
Quote from: Mensch on February 15, 2011, 11:11:51 AM
His is some of the most turgid prose ever penned, even for his period. Wagner, by no stretch of the imagination, was ever as skilled at capturing language with music as Janacek, Richard Strauss or Mozart, for all three of whom it was indeed inseparable from the music they wrote for their texts.

It's a good thing I don't know how to read or I could have sworn you just said that Janacek, Strauss and Mozart were better in capturing the language with music and also mocking Wagner's ability to create awesome opera librettos from very different sources.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: A.C. Douglas on February 15, 2011, 12:00:01 PM
Quote from: Mensch on February 15, 2011, 11:46:07 AMYou [A.C. Douglas] suffer from delusions of grandeur. You are in no position to "instruct" anyone. If you care at all about Wagner's music, it would do you well to acquire some grasp about how to interact with people in a less condescendingly pompous manner. It accomplishes the opposite of what you seek. ... Unless, of course, what you seek is to caress your precious little ego and convince yourself of your superiority over the rest of the world. Your choice.

Oh dear. You need to learn to respect and honor your clear superiors, m'boy. By your crude, discourteous, and insulting remarks you succeed only in making a spectacle of yourself, and reveal yourself to be a fool into the bargain.

Now, pop a couple Valium tablets or the equivalent, and lie down for a bit and mellow out until the lunacy passes.

There's a good fellow.

ACD
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 15, 2011, 12:24:22 PM
Ah, my good friend, ACD. Always such a delight when you come visit our little sandbox. If there is one thing that remains consistent, year by slithering year, it is the blessing of your presence ensuring that Our Boy Dickie gets his just due.

I do wish, however that you would take the supercilious portion of your attitude and make at least a vague effort at kicking some sand on it. It seems as though in your efforts to promote good will to Wagner, the net result is less than that. Pity really. I just hope like hell that you don't take a shine to Haydn... :)

8)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: A.C. Douglas on February 15, 2011, 12:44:21 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 15, 2011, 12:24:22 PM
Ah, my good friend, ACD. Always such a delight when you come visit our little sandbox. If there is one thing that remains consistent, year by slithering year, it is the blessing of your presence ensuring that Our Boy Dickie gets his just due.

I do wish, however that you would take the supercilious portion of your attitude and make at least a vague effort at kicking some sand on it. It seems as though in your efforts to promote good will to Wagner, the net result is less than that. Pity really. I just hope like hell that you don't take a shine to Haydn... :)

8)

It's not my intent to "promote good will to Wagner," Gurnatron5500, but merely to educate the Wagner-ignorant who, ignorant though they may be, still insist on making assertions concerning Wagner's works of which it's clear they have only the most meager understanding. If in pursuing that objective I come across as supercilious, so be it. I assure you it's not by design. I simply have a low tolerance for the arrogantly ignorant.

ACD
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 15, 2011, 01:17:24 PM
Quote from: A.C. Douglas on February 15, 2011, 12:44:21 PM
It's not my intent to "promote good will to Wagner," Gurnatron5500, but merely to educate the Wagner-ignorant who, ignorant though they may be, still insist on making assertions concerning Wagner's works of which it's clear they have only the most meager understanding. If in pursuing that objective I come across as supercilious, so be it. I assure you it's not by design. I simply have a low tolerance for the arrogantly ignorant.

ACD

Well that's as well, converts aren't easy to come by, it seems.  In any case, since you last reared up here, we have made a concerted effort to promote civility amongst the troops. We don't want to squash disagreement by any means, however, we are insisting on a modicum of civility.

So please be so kind as to recognize that ignorance and arrogance, although they may seem similar, do in fact spring from different roots, and not get quite so heated up. That way leads to retaliation and warfare, and it has been my recent experience that posts, threads and sometimes even entire posters simply disappear into the digital void. Ooh, that sounds almost Wagnerian!   :)

8)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on February 15, 2011, 01:21:15 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 15, 2011, 01:17:24 PM
Well that's as well, converts aren't easy to come by, it seems.  In any case, since you last reared up here, we have made a concerted effort to promote civility amongst the troops. We don't want to squash disagreement by any means, however, we are insisting on a modicum of civility.

So please be so kind as to recognize that ignorance and arrogance, although they may seem similar, do in fact spring from different roots, and not get quite so heated up. That way leads to retaliation and warfare, and it has been my recent experience that posts, threads and sometimes even entire posters simply disappear into the digital void. Ooh, that sounds almost Wagnerian!   :)

As a matter of fact, my dear ACD, if you really want to demonstrate your power, perhaps you should turn yourself into a toad.  (Oh wait, I see you have already done so.   0:) )
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 15, 2011, 01:22:59 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 15, 2011, 01:17:24 PM
So please be so kind as to recognize that ignorance and arrogance, although they may seem similar, do in fact spring from different roots,

Actually, they are inseparable. Arrogance invariably stems from ignorance of oneself and is only maintained though unwillingness to learn.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 15, 2011, 01:30:42 PM
Quote from: Mensch on February 15, 2011, 01:22:59 PM
Actually, they are inseparable. Arrogance invariably stems from ignorance of oneself and is only maintained though unwillingness to learn.

Lots of ignorant people aren't arrogant. They are separable. Arrogance occasionally stems from pathological character defects totally independently of ignorance. Nothing is invariable. :)

Quote from: Scarpia on February 15, 2011, 01:21:15 PM
As a matter of fact, my dear ACD, if you really want to demonstrate your power, perhaps you should turn yourself into a toad.  (Oh wait, I see you have already done so.   0:) )

That is singularly unhelpful...  $:)

8)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: A.C. Douglas on February 15, 2011, 01:38:18 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 15, 2011, 01:17:24 PM
Well that's as well, converts aren't easy to come by, it seems.  In any case, since you last reared up here, we have made a concerted effort to promote civility amongst the troops. We don't want to squash disagreement by any means, however, we are insisting on a modicum of civility.

So please be so kind as to recognize that ignorance and arrogance, although they may seem similar, do in fact spring from different roots, and not get quite so heated up. That way leads to retaliation and warfare, and it has been my recent experience that posts, threads and sometimes even entire posters simply disappear into the digital void. Ooh, that sounds almost Wagnerian!   :)

8)

Your warning is misdirected. Please note where the real incivility (as opposed to snarky argument) began in this thread. I realize I'm only passing through and am not a regular here, but, still, you would do well to direct your warning to the one who most deserves it and not to myself who merely responded in kind and with admirable restraint.

ACD
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on February 15, 2011, 01:40:29 PM
Quote from: A.C. Douglas on February 15, 2011, 01:38:18 PM
Your warning is directed to the wrong poster, Gurn. Please note where the real incivility (as opposed to snarky argument) began in this thread. I realize I'm only passing through and am not a regular here, but, still, you would do well to direct your warning to the one who most deserves it and not to myself who merely responded in kind and with admirable restraint.

It is clear that you admire yourself.  It is more difficult to arrange to be admired by others

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on February 15, 2011, 02:39:34 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on February 15, 2011, 01:40:29 PM
It is clear that you admire yourself.  It is more difficult to arrange to be admired by others.

Completely unrelated, I think of Dale Carnegie's adage:

"You can make more friends in two months by becoming interested in other people
than you can in two years by trying to get other people interested in you."
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on February 15, 2011, 03:04:43 PM
Quote from: Mensch on February 15, 2011, 11:11:51 AM
Please stop writing! It's overinflated buffoons like yourself who turn the uninitiated off from this music. Anyone who writes such absurd hyperbole and actually believes it needs professional help. If you really think you're so smart and everyone needs to attend the ACD University before being permitted to have an opinion of Wagner, you'll soon be sitting alone in the opera house, in which case I hope you're obscenely wealthy, because otherwise it will be the end of staged productions of his music.

Wagner was human. Not a demigod. What he wrote is not beyond criticism. There is no question that certain of his works are more succinct, dramatically more easily borught off on stage, etc. than others.

And this...

[snip]

... is just certifiable silliness that could only have been penned by a non-native German speaker. Show Wagner's librettos to any native speaker of German and their eyes will glaze over by page 3 at the latest. His is some of the most turgid prose ever penned, even for his period. Wagner, by no stretch of the imagination, was ever as skilled at capturing language with music as Janacek, Richard Strauss or Mozart, for all three of whom it was indeed inseparable from the music they wrote for their texts. Wagner is essential to the Western musical canon and his works need to be heard and will endure without doubt. But let's not give him accolades for things at which he did not particularly excel.

Quote from: Mensch on February 15, 2011, 11:46:07 AM
You suffer from delusions of grandeur. You are in no position to "instruct" anyone. If you care at all about Wagner's music, it would do you well to acquire some grasp about how to interact with people in a less condescendingly pompous manner. It accomplishes the opposite of what you seek. ... Unless, of course, what you seek is to caress your precious little ego and convince yourself of your superiority over the rest of the world. Your choice.

BTW, you misspoke. It's not that "Wagner's text can NEVER be assessed apart from its organically linked music". Rather Wagner's text is certifiable crap without the music which elevates it onto spheres it would otherwise never reach. Thankfully the text isn't so bad as to impede the music's success, but your exalting it to something it simply isn't. Get over yourself.

Just basking in the plain sanity of these posts.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on February 15, 2011, 03:05:46 PM
Quote from: bigshot on February 15, 2011, 08:58:00 AM
That's easy! "Kill da wabbit" is without question the most famous and beloved aria in all of opera.

Which fact owes more to Elmer Fudd than to the source, perhaps : )
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Walther von Stolzing on February 15, 2011, 08:55:51 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on February 15, 2011, 09:11:03 AM
I'll speak for myself, since I have somewhat similar dissatisfaction with Wagner.  It is not that I want tunes or arias.  I want him to do what he does, but get on with it.  I would say Strauss in Salome did what Wagner did, but he did not let the drama grind to a halt while some character gave a half-hour narration of the previous act.  The characters were doing and the symphonic music was depicting their frame of mind and we could figure out for ourselves what their motivations were.  If Walkure was constructed as a tight bit of drama, we would know what was motivating Wotan better than Wotan did.  Isn't that what makes gripping Drama, when the characters are swept up in forces they don't understand, and we see?  How much more boring can it get than when the character has to stop and lecture you on what is going on?

It's not that I don't understand where you're coming from, because I do. Your position is completely logical. And yet, for many people who love the Ring, Wotan's monologue in Walkure is the crux of the entire cycle, a key turning point, and quite powerful dramatically. So how can this be? I think a large part of it obviously comes from the dramatic method Wagner generally employs, as so many have already pointed out. He adopted his method from the ancient Greek dramatists like Aeschylus, of beginning a scene or act very near to a key event while spending the majority of the drama establishing, developing, and exploring the psychological states of the characters. Mostly through narration. Dropping hints and clues here and there, piecing together the back-story slowly but surely in an effective build-up. There are, believe it or not, people who actually find this dramatic method compelling. If you aren't one of them...it makes complete sense that passages seem to run on and and on and on without end. But it's not that Wagner is a bad dramatist: he is actually quite skilled in the method he deploys most of the time. It just doesn't resonate with everyone.

But I think another part of it is being able to sympathize and identify with the issues Wagner is dealing with as a dramatist. This kind of drama that Wagner writes depicts characters struggling with the world around them, coming to grips with existence, and seeking redemption in a world full of pain and suffering. The important action in the Ring is an internal struggle. So Wotan isn't stopping the "action" to lecture about what is going on at all. He is voicing his frustrations and expressing some gut-wrenching insights that are of major significance. Not only in the scheme of things in the drama, but -- and this is why some of us identify with it so --  in the lives of all of us. Which is a big part of the reason Wagner chose myth as a vehicle for his drama. He believed they expressed core truths about humanity, relevant for all times, encoded in their stories. The make-up of those stories are often silly: dwarves turning into snakes, heroes slaying dragons, etc. But there is a deeper level at which the drama can be read, and Wagner was attempting to bring those deeper levels to the forefront.

I know, I know. This probably sounds like a bunch of mumbo-jumbo, especially to those who are unmoved by Wagner's art. I don't expect anyone to feel any differently just by reading about it. I'm simply trying to do my best to make it clear what others like myself get out of it.  There is something deeply moving about the worlds Wagner creates, because there is something of ourselves we can see and feel in the emotions of the characters. And of course, as a music-dramatist, much of this is communicated through music....so for those who don't find his music particularly captivating, that's just another obstacle.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Walther von Stolzing on February 15, 2011, 09:16:42 PM
Quote from: Mensch on February 15, 2011, 11:11:51 AM
... is just certifiable silliness that could only have been penned by a non-native German speaker. Show Wagner's librettos to any native speaker of German and their eyes will glaze over by page 3 at the latest. His is some of the most turgid prose ever penned, even for his period. Wagner, by no stretch of the imagination, was ever as skilled at capturing language with music as Janacek, Richard Strauss or Mozart, for all three of whom it was indeed inseparable from the music they wrote for their texts. Wagner is essential to the Western musical canon and his works need to be heard and will endure without doubt. But let's not give him accolades for things at which he did not particularly excel.

I think the point that ACD was trying to make is that the librettos are turgid, awkward, and convoluted as prose, but actually quite effective as framework for the music. I personally think it's amazing the way he basically re-invented his literary method for each one of his dramas to fit their mood, the style of the music, and the "period" they take place in: reviving Stabreim from ancient Teutonic poetry for the Ring, creating a poetic language based on Lutherian German for Die Meistersinger, etc.

In the words of Deryck Cooke, regarding the Ring's libretto:

"For all its purely literary faults -- the worst of which are a tendency to overuse superlatives ('Holiest love's deepest need') and a too-eay reliance on well-worn euphoric adjectives such as selig (blessed), wonnig (delightful), and herrlich (splendid) -- the verbal language of The Ring has a kind of raw poetry about it which convey's Wagner's overt meaning vividly throughout. Also, while giving strength to the music through its sound, it gains back from the music an enormous strengthening of its own meaning; and it thus fuses with the music's full symbolic expression, without any incongruity. No other medium could have served Wagner's purpose."

As an aside, I notice that a lot of the invective against Wagner seems to be aimed towards the Ring. I wished that more people who find the Ring as a whole (or even only aspects of it) off putting would give works like Die Meistersinger and Lohengrin more of a chance. If you find the fantastical story of the Ring to be silly, you might like the down-to-earth human relations of Die Meistersinger. It's amazing the way he is able to conjure up a different atmosphere, a different sound-world in each of his works, and if you don't respond to one it doesn't necessarily mean you won't respond to any of the others.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 16, 2011, 12:11:59 AM
Walther von Stolzing deserves a prize for his two calm and lucid songs, er, posts, I mean. Thanks for taking the trouble!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Luke on February 16, 2011, 12:27:08 AM
...I see what you did there, Johan. Cunning....  ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on February 16, 2011, 12:51:45 AM
Indeed!

Herr Walther von Stolzing, singt das Lied!
ihr Meister, lest, ob's ihm geriet.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 16, 2011, 03:53:13 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 16, 2011, 12:11:59 AM
Walther von Stolzing deserves a prize for his two calm and lucid songs, er, posts, I mean. Thanks for taking the trouble!

I want an Abgesang!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 16, 2011, 07:22:26 AM
Quote from: Walther von Stolzing on February 15, 2011, 09:16:42 PM
I think the point that ACD was trying to make is that the librettos are turgid, awkward, and convoluted as prose, but actually quite effective as framework for the music. I personally think it's amazing the way he basically re-invented his literary method for each one of his dramas to fit their mood, the style of the music, and the "period" they take place in: reviving Stabreim from ancient Teutonic poetry for the Ring, creating a poetic language based on Lutherian German for Die Meistersinger, etc.

In the words of Deryck Cooke, regarding the Ring's libretto:

"For all its purely literary faults -- the worst of which are a tendency to overuse superlatives ('Holiest love's deepest need') and a too-easy reliance on well-worn euphoric adjectives such as selig (blessed), wonnig (delightful), and herrlich (splendid) -- the verbal language of The Ring has a kind of raw poetry about it which convey's Wagner's overt meaning vividly throughout. Also, while giving strength to the music through its sound, it gains back from the music an enormous strengthening of its own meaning; and it thus fuses with the music's full symbolic expression, without any incongruity. No other medium could have served Wagner's purpose."

All very fine points I don't disagree with, though Cooke is over the top. What I was saying is that, even taking all of the above into account, Wagner's own librettos are indeed one of the reasons he is still inaccessible to some. The stage drama, due to its often physically static nature, often only makes sense if you understand the words, even the partial projected translations in opera houses won't really do. And the words, even if you are German, are archaic and not very elegantly put together. To top it off, they are hard to sing and articulate sometimes, because consonants often collide in ways that are difficult to articulate and project while singing. The libretto often reads as if Wagner already had a musical idea in mind and was looking for the right words to fill up the right number of syllables to match up with his musical idea and make a rhyme on top of that. The result is clunky poetry. In that sense, as I said above, he simply isn't a Mozart, Janacek or Strauss. All those composers knew how to make the music inextricably linked to the melody of the language, to help the music articulate the words and vice versa to have the natural meter of the language make it obvious how the music should be phrased. Look, I love Wagner dearly, but this still is a criticism that is hard to get around, and one that one has to acknowlege in order to persuade the reluctant to give Wagner a try, instead of blaming the listener, the way ACD does, and pretending that even his flaws are in essence part of Wagner's greatness.

Quote from: Walther von Stolzing on February 15, 2011, 09:16:42 PM
As an aside, I notice that a lot of the invective against Wagner seems to be aimed towards the Ring. I wished that more people who find the Ring as a whole (or even only aspects of it) off putting would give works like Die Meistersinger and Lohengrin more of a chance. If you find the fantastical story of the Ring to be silly, you might like the down-to-earth human relations of Die Meistersinger. It's amazing the way he is able to conjure up a different atmosphere, a different sound-world in each of his works, and if you don't respond to one it doesn't necessarily mean you won't respond to any of the others.

That's what I've been saying all along. Thanks.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 16, 2011, 07:29:07 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on February 16, 2011, 03:53:13 AM
I want an Abgesang!


I think we're heading there, Herr Sforzando, surveying the battlefield at the moment...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: A.C. Douglas on February 16, 2011, 07:59:14 AM
Quote from: Walther von Stolzing on February 15, 2011, 09:16:42 PM
I think the point that ACD was trying to make is that the librettos are turgid, awkward, and convoluted as prose, but actually quite effective as framework for the music.

Yes, that's quite correct and I should have been more specific concerning why Wagner's texts ("poems") will not -- were never intended to -- stand on their own. I was, however, quite specific and emphatic in asserting that those texts must be understood verbatim by a listener as they're being sung (as opposed to being understood in a general sense the way it's possible to do in conventional opera) in order for them to make the sense Wagner intended as those texts are, in effect, dialogue, not mere narration or poetic expressions of emotions and the like.

You're doing a fine job, Herr von Stolzing, in elucidating and getting across important Wagnerian points and so, to the relief of most if not all here, I'll be bowing out of this discussion, for the nonce at least, and leave things in your clearly capable hands.

ACD
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 16, 2011, 08:06:34 AM
Quote from: A.C. Douglas on February 16, 2011, 07:59:14 AM
Yes, that's quite correct and I should have been more specific concerning why Wagner's texts ("poems") will not -- were never intended to -- stand on their own.

Neither do most other librettos, even Da Ponte's, stand very well on their own. Hoffmannsthal maybe, but he's rather the exception.

Quote from: A.C. Douglas on February 16, 2011, 07:59:14 AM
I was, however, quite specific and emphatic in asserting that those texts must be understood verbatim by a listener as they're being sung (as opposed to being understood in a general sense the way it's possible to do in conventional opera) in order for them to make the sense Wagner intended as those texts are, in effect, dialogue, not mere narration or poetic expressions of emotions and the like.

Completely correct. Yet, the problem is that the inelegant poetry makes it hard to articulate the words correctly while singing. One either makes allowances for the musical phrasing, or allowances for articulation of the words. There simply are some spots that almost never are properly articulated. That is what I meant with my comparisons to e.g. Janacek where that hardly ever happens.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on February 16, 2011, 08:22:57 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 16, 2011, 12:11:59 AM
Walther von Stolzing deserves a prize for his two calm and lucid songs, er, posts, I mean. Thanks for taking the trouble!
Yes.
 
Quote from: Walther von Stolzing on February 15, 2011, 09:16:42 PM
I notice that a lot of the invective against Wagner seems to be aimed towards the Ring. I wished that more people who find the Ring as a whole (or even only aspects of it) off putting would give works like Die Meistersinger and Lohengrin more of a chance. If you find the fantastical story of the Ring to be silly, you might like the down-to-earth human relations of Die Meistersinger. It's amazing the way he is able to conjure up a different atmosphere, a different sound-world in each of his works, and if you don't respond to one it doesn't necessarily mean you won't respond to any of the others.
To me the Ring story isn't silly and Wagner's version of it is not off-putting, merely tedious in places.  What's off-putting are the inflated claims made by Wagner-worshipping fan boys and their irrational nastiness toward those whose response to the work falls short of sheer idolatry. 

I suspect the same flaws mar Lohengrin and Die Meistersinger, since they appear to be functions of Wagner's character as both man and artist, but I know these works only from recordings.  Since they are theatrical works and I've never seen a performance of either, I cannot form an opinion.

Quote from: Walther von Stolzing on February 15, 2011, 08:55:51 PM
...gut-wrenching insights that are of major significance. Not only in the scheme of things in the drama, but -- and this is why some of us identify with it so --  in the lives of all of us.
I've seen similar claims here and elsewhere but have yet to find an answer to the obvious question: What are these significant insights?  Craftsmanship aside (after all, craftsmanship is a vehicle, and no matter how elegantly wrapped the package may be, if it contains a cowpie then we may find the offering uninspiring), what makes the great poets, dramatists, and novelists resonate so deeply with so many through the ages is their insight into the human condition.

It's one thing to say, "I love Wagner's music and drama and for me it's the bee's knees!"  It's quite something else to say that The Ring offers staggering insights into human nature.  If the latter is a true statement, then it shouldn't prove difficult to describe those insights, should it?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on February 16, 2011, 08:40:06 AM
Quote from: Sherman Peabody on February 16, 2011, 08:22:57 AM
It's one thing to say, "I love Wagner's music and drama and for me it's the bee's knees!"  It's quite something else to say that The Ring offers staggering insights into human nature.  If the latter is a true statement, then it shouldn't prove difficult to describe those insights, should it?

Not impossible... but not easy, either. There are so many things involved... Music, text, an emotive response to either or both on the part of the listener, the level of detail and subtlety, the complexities... I'm not sure it can be explained with much less effort than it would be to learn it by repeat exposure. There's a bit of faith involved, too... if you just *believe* there's all that, and the bee's knees on top, then you're in an easier position just to try and try again until you have an epiphany (or not).

What I appreciate in Wagner over most other opera composers, is the complexity of each character; the wealth of emotion that he can express musically. Rather than getting "excited" (fast tremolo, which also signifies: storm coming), "love" (soaring upward string phrases,preferably fortissimo), and other emotional-musical stock phrases, Wagner can get you scathing irony expressed at the turn of a chord from major to minor. Emotional ambiguity in music also seems an invention of Wagner... none of that had been had before... with a few exceptions in Mozart/DaPonte where, but only in the very, very best of performances, you can hear a hint of that.

None of which is to say that it's not OK to not like Wagner... just that there *is* reason to adore and love and repeatedly expose oneself to his work. [Though there is, of course, no reason to become an insufferable a#*hole in the course of this transformation.]
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 16, 2011, 08:58:57 AM
I'd like to add to the above - an aesthetic experience can't be 'proven'. Art isn't a science. You can give reasons why you find something good or even great. And if enough people come to the same conclusion, the artist earns himself a reputation. But you'll never convince everyone as an artist.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on February 16, 2011, 09:03:07 AM
Cogent and civil, as usual, Jens.

All narrative art requires a willing suspension of disbelief.  The "faith" you speak of is a measure of that willingness.  It distinguishes the open mind from the closed one.

That emotive response of which you speak--willing participation in otherworldly transport--is what my wife described in her response to Lepage/Levine's Rheingold quoted above.  I think Wagner would have smiled in satisfaction reading it, for I believe that's what he was aiming at and hoping for with his Gesamtkunstwerk.  I will be very interested to see if she responds similarly to Die Walküre, or if the dull quarter hours and dramatic stasis breaks the spell.

Speaking of adoring and loving the work reminds me of one telling difference between love and infatuation:  Infatuation is an obsession with an idealized vision projected onto the object of obsession; love requires knowing and accepting the beloved as she really is, warts and all.  Beauty and perfection are not the same; many would argue that it's the flaw that makes for beauty.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 16, 2011, 09:28:11 AM
Quote from: A.C. Douglas on February 15, 2011, 10:55:21 AM
Wagner was not a mere dramatist such as, say, Shakespeare.

Now that statement cracked me up.

Quote from: A.C. Douglas on February 15, 2011, 10:55:21 AM
No charge.

Nothing offered.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bigshot on February 16, 2011, 09:50:02 AM
Quote from: Mensch on February 16, 2011, 08:06:34 AMYet, the problem is that the inelegant poetry makes it hard to articulate the words correctly while singing. One either makes allowances for the musical phrasing, or allowances for articulation of the words. There simply are some spots that almost never are properly articulated.

I can speak to that point, having seen the Ring in Andrew Porter's English translation in Seattle with Rita Hunter and Alberto Remedios.

When the libretto is sung in one's own language, the parts where understanding is crucial (the narratives and dialogue between characters) the words are clearly articulated and perfectly understandable to the audience. The parts where the words are not clearly articulated are generally places where the music and stage action are doing the communicating rather than the words (ie: Hail the sun! etc.) In Seattle, they had the words projected above the proscenium, even though it was in English. But I rarely needed to refer to it.

Wagner's German is stilted and might not be immediately clear to a German speaker, but a perusal of the libretto in advance of seeing a performance will clear that up. On video with subtitles, it doesn't matter if it's sung in Mandarin Chinese... It's simple to follow along.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Walther von Stolzing on February 16, 2011, 09:58:11 AM
Quote from: Mensch on February 16, 2011, 08:06:34 AM
Completely correct. Yet, the problem is that the inelegant poetry makes it hard to articulate the words correctly while singing. One either makes allowances for the musical phrasing, or allowances for articulation of the words. There simply are some spots that almost never are properly articulated. That is what I meant with my comparisons to e.g. Janacek where that hardly ever happens.

Ok, I see what you're saying. Yeah absolutely. I don't disagree. At times, the points characters are trying to make can be difficult to comprehend because of the murkiness of the language they use. One of the greatest virtues of Wagner's art in my mind is it's ambiguity, both musically and dramatically, as jlaurson points out. A good portion of the time motivations are not clear cut, characters aren't black-and-white and are difficult to pin down, the music often merely suggests and implies rather than declaring anything concrete. But this can also deteriorate into just plain obscurity at times, and requires quite a bit of reflection to try to understand what Wagner is trying to get across.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on February 16, 2011, 10:01:14 AM
Quote from: Walther von Stolzing on February 16, 2011, 09:58:11 AM
Ok, I see what you're saying. Yeah absolutely. I don't disagree. At times, the points characters are trying to make can be difficult to comprehend because of the murkiness of the language they use. One of the greatest virtues of Wagner's art in my mind is it's ambiguity, both musically and dramatically, as jlaurson points out. A good portion of the time motivations are not clear cut, characters aren't black-and-white and are difficult to pin down, the music often merely suggests and implies rather than declaring anything concrete. But this can also deteriorate into just plain obscurity at times, and requires quite a bit of reflection to try to understand what Wagner is trying to get across.

It astonishes me that Wagner nuts seem to think that complex characters and ambiguous motivations are unique to Wagner.  I can see complex characters and ambiguous motivations in Buffy the Vampire Slayer (wow, I've mentioned that show twice today).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on February 16, 2011, 10:07:33 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on February 16, 2011, 10:01:14 AM
It astonishes me that Wagner nuts seem to think that complex characters and ambiguous motivations are unique to Wagner.  I can see complex characters and ambiguous motivations in Buffy the Vampire Slayer (wow, I've mentioned that show twice today).

First of all, it's like totally widely known among any self-respecting Buffyrist, that Wagner was like one of the major inspirations for the show.

And even if you should assume that I just pulled the above statement out of my athin air, it's a generally agreed upon point that Wagner preceded Buffy. Talk was in any case not of "unique for all time", but "unique at his time". And whatever else his operas may or may not be, they're still pretty damn unique.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on February 16, 2011, 10:28:20 AM
I'm confused.  Isn't Buffy the sequel to Die Meistersinger?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on February 16, 2011, 10:37:20 AM
Both times in this thread, Scarps?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Walther von Stolzing on February 16, 2011, 10:45:56 AM
Quote from: Sherman Peabody on February 16, 2011, 08:22:57 AM
I've seen similar claims here and elsewhere but have yet to find an answer to the obvious question: What are these significant insights?  Craftsmanship aside (after all, craftsmanship is a vehicle, and no matter how elegantly wrapped the package may be, if it contains a cowpie then we may find the offering uninspiring), what makes the great poets, dramatists, and novelists resonate so deeply with so many through the ages is their insight into the human condition.

It's one thing to say, "I love Wagner's music and drama and for me it's the bee's knees!"  It's quite something else to say that The Ring offers staggering insights into human nature.  If the latter is a true statement, then it shouldn't prove difficult to describe those insights, should it?

Hmmm, ok, I'll try. Although I have to say that this is something that hits home with me intuitively, and it is difficult to try to explain through words. But I think in general his insights have to do with revealing the larger reality of the world beyond what we experience. Revealing that there are larger forces at work, that there are patterns that reoccur over and over again throughout the course of humanity. His dramas are attempting to depict characters who are coming to terms with that greater reality, and he is investigating how we can find peace and satisfaction in such a world. I mean that's a very crude abstraction, but that's the general sense I get of what is happening. In the case of Wotan during his monologue in Die Walkure, he is facing the fact that there are some things which are simply out of his control. He had this whole grand plan about setting things right with his "independent" hero Siegmund, only to realize Siegmund isn't so independent after all. He thought he had developed a plan, a loop-hole, to cement his power forever, only to find disappointment. He realizes for the first time that his rule over the world, and more-so his life will one-day have to end. There's not much he can do about it, and there's not much he can do to change the way of the world in the meantime. So it's a scene of frustration, despair, and a feeling of hopelessness at being caught up in the way the world works without seeing a way out that I think everyone feels at times.

As an interesting caveat, long before I was familiar with Wagner's work I was introduced to the philosophy of Schopenhauer. In a somewhat superficial manner to be sure (I never undertook reading The World as Will and Representation), but what I got from the philosophy really struck a chord with me. There was something about Schopenhauer's world-view that just made sense to me. And when he is at his best, Wagner's dramas are like a perfect artistic representation of that world-view, and help me understand and come to terms with my life. I guess the music dramas tap into that sense of alienation I have with the world, something that Wagner obviously had as well. So maybe I'm just more pre-disposed to them than other people to begin with.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Walther von Stolzing on February 16, 2011, 10:48:52 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on February 16, 2011, 10:01:14 AM
It astonishes me that Wagner nuts seem to think that complex characters and ambiguous motivations are unique to Wagner.  I can see complex characters and ambiguous motivations in Buffy the Vampire Slayer (wow, I've mentioned that show twice today).

I didn't mean to imply they were unique to Wagner. That's just part of what makes his work compelling for me.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on February 16, 2011, 10:49:24 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 16, 2011, 10:37:20 AM
Both times in this thread, Scarps?

Previous was a reference to Schubert's Winterreise.   ???
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: A.C. Douglas on February 16, 2011, 11:52:45 AM
Quote from: Walther von Stolzing on February 16, 2011, 10:45:56 AM
In the case of Wotan during his monologue in Die Walkure, he is facing the fact that there are some things which are simply out of his control. He had this whole grand plan about setting things right with his "independent" hero Siegmund, only to realize Siegmund isn't so independent after all. He thought he had developed a plan, a loop-hole, to cement his power forever, only to find disappointment. He realizes for the first time that his rule over the world, and more-so his life will one-day have to end. There's not much he can do about it, and there's not much he can do to change the way of the world in the meantime. So it's a scene of frustration, despair, and a feeling of hopelessness at being caught up in the way the world works without seeing a way out that I think everyone feels at times.

I know I said I was bowing out of this discussion, and I apologize for interrupting here, but you've missed the central psychological and dramatic point of that monologue; the thing that in large part makes it the lynchpin not only of Die Walküre but of the entire tetralogy, as I've written. And that is that Wotan, for the very first time, realizes that what's gone wrong with his plan to create a "free hero" who, of his own free will, will do what Wotan himself is prohibited from doing, has gone wrong because he (Wotan) has himself manipulated and stage-managed everything every step of the way while deceiving himself into thinking he played no part in things once they got moving ("Zum Ekel find ich ewig nur mich in allem was ich erwirke!" — With disgust I find always only myself in all I create!).

Again, apologies for the interruption.

ACD
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 16, 2011, 02:19:02 PM
To add to what A.C. Douglas just said - it is Fricka who puts Wotan on the spot with that uncomfotable truth in an earlier scene. 'If Siegmund is so independent from you, don't defend him.' Reluctantly, Wotan has to accede to the death of his own son. It is this which makes his monologue, in which he retraces his steps to the very beginning, the lynchpin of the Ring.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Walther von Stolzing on February 16, 2011, 03:09:32 PM
Quote from: A.C. Douglas on February 16, 2011, 11:52:45 AMI know I said I was bowing out of this discussion, and I apologize for interrupting here, but you've missed the central psychological and dramatic point of that monologue; the thing that in large part makes it the lynchpin not only of Die Walküre but of the entire tetralogy, as I've written. And that is that Wotan, for the very first time, realizes that what's gone wrong with his plan to create a "free hero" who, of his own free will, will do what Wotan himself is prohibited from doing, has gone wrong because he (Wotan) has himself manipulated and stage-managed everything every step of the way while deceiving himself into thinking he played no part in things once they got moving ("Zum Ekel find ich ewig nur mich in allem was ich erwirke!"  With disgust I find always only myself in all I create!). Again, apologies for the interruption. ACD

That's ok. I admittedly glossed over the details of the monologue, and that is what I was referring to when I spoke of the loop-hole he thought he had found. Thanks for clearing that up.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Mirror Image on February 16, 2011, 06:47:33 PM
Here's a fun little site about Wagner's operas that might interest those who, like me, came to Wagner late:

http://www.wagneroperas.com (http://www.wagneroperas.com)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on February 16, 2011, 08:04:15 PM
As a newcomer to Wagner you need this:

http://www.youtube.com/v/MQlmXU1zqfc&feature=related

and this:

http://www.youtube.com/v/Cv7G92F2sqs&feature=related

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on February 17, 2011, 01:51:04 AM
Quote from: Sherman Peabody on February 16, 2011, 08:22:57 AM
What's off-putting are the inflated claims made by Wagner-worshipping fan boys and their irrational nastiness toward those whose response to the work falls short of sheer idolatry. 

Such as many important composers after Wagner/ during his lifetime in some point of their life: Debussy, Bruckner, Sibelius, Wolf, etc. Although in most cases their worshipping without any criticism changed, into more realistic admiration or love/hate relationship. Although following Bruckner's quote sounds to me extremely ignorant (Forgive me Bruckner!) I must mention it, because it still cracks me up everytime:

"Tell me, why did they burn the woman at the end?"
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Florestan on February 17, 2011, 04:11:51 AM
Quote from: Walther von Stolzing on February 16, 2011, 10:45:56 AM
I think in general his insights have to do with revealing the larger reality of the world beyond what we experience. Revealing that there are larger forces at work, that there are patterns that reoccur over and over again throughout the course of humanity.

The ancient Greeks knew all that long before Wagner...

Quote
His dramas are attempting to depict characters who are coming to terms with that greater reality, and he is investigating how we can find peace and satisfaction in such a world.

Quote
it's a scene of frustration, despair, and a feeling of hopelessness at being caught up in the way the world works without seeing a way out that I think everyone feels at times.

...and they did all that long before Wagner.

(This should not be interpreted as a dismissive comment on Wagner.)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on February 17, 2011, 04:18:55 AM
Quote from: Eusebius on February 17, 2011, 04:11:51 AM
The ancient Greeks knew all that long before Wagner...
...and they did all that long before Wagner.


Well, yes. That was Wagner's aim. To bring it all back together. That's why he so took to this young Nietzsche fellow who had just written the audacious "The Birth of Tragedy" where he outlines all that.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Florestan on February 17, 2011, 04:24:46 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 17, 2011, 04:18:55 AM

Well, yes. That was Wagner's aim. To bring it all back together. That's why he so took to this young Nietzsche fellow who had just written the audacious "The Birth of Tragedy" where he outlines all that.

Thus, the artwork of the "future" was actually a return to the "past" --- only too befitting for a follower of "the eternal return".  :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 17, 2011, 07:28:20 AM
Quote from: Eusebius on February 17, 2011, 04:11:51 AM
The ancient Greeks knew all that long before Wagner...

Last I checked, Euripides, Sophocles & Co. didn't write opera.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on February 17, 2011, 07:44:48 AM
Quote from: Alberich on February 17, 2011, 01:51:04 AM
Such as many important composers after Wagner/ during his lifetime in some point of their life: Debussy, Bruckner, Sibelius, Wolf, etc. Although in most cases their worshipping without any criticism changed, into more realistic admiration or love/hate relationship.
Nope.  None of these fellows, nor any other composer but Wagner has his own juggalos.  Wagner worship is an industry, like Scientology.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brahmsian on February 17, 2011, 07:49:15 AM
I don't worship Wagner.  For that, I go to Beethoven and Brahms for my sermons.  ;D

I just love the music.  His orchestral writing in his operas is second to none, IMO.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on February 17, 2011, 07:57:21 AM
Quote from: Eusebius on February 17, 2011, 04:11:51 AM
The ancient Greeks knew all that long before Wagner...


...and they did all that long before Wagner.

(This should not be interpreted as a dismissive comment on Wagner.)
Yes, but some claim that Wagner's work expresses "profound" or "significant" insights.  Things known and expressed in literature for thousands of years, or even hundreds or a dozen or two, aren't insights, so surely there must be something else, something that I'm missing in Wagner...unless those who credit him with such insights may have encountered them first in Wagner and not been aware that they  did not originate with him...?

And, heavens, no, let's not dismiss Wagner.  His achievement was remarkable and he wrote some gorgeous music.  But let's temper our admiration with a rational and realistic appraisal of his accomplishment and not credit him with creating the Earth in seven days or inventing sliced bread.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: A.C. Douglas on February 17, 2011, 08:56:31 AM
Quote from: Sherman Peabody (aka DavidRoss) on February 16, 2011, 08:22:57 AMTo me the Ring story isn't silly and Wagner's version of it is not off-putting, merely tedious in places. What's off-putting are the inflated claims made by Wagner-worshipping fan boys and their irrational nastiness toward those whose response to the work falls short of sheer idolatry.

To which Alberich replied:

Quote from: Alberich on February 17, 2011, 01:51:04 AM
Such as many important composers after Wagner/ during his lifetime in some point of their life: Debussy, Bruckner, Sibelius, Wolf, etc. Although in most cases their worshipping without any criticism changed, into more realistic admiration or love/hate relationship.

To which Sherman Peabody (aka DavidRoss) replied:

Quote from: Sherman Peabody (aka DavidRoss)  on February 17, 2011, 07:44:48 AMNope. None of these fellows, nor any other composer but Wagner has his own juggalos. Wagner worship is an industry, like Scientology.

Your response is non sequitur as a response to what Alberich wrote which is absolutely true.

Read again what he wrote, please.

Quote from: Sherman Peabody (aka DavidRoss) on February 17, 2011, 07:57:21 AMSome claim that Wagner's work expresses "profound" or "significant" insights. Things known and expressed in literature for thousands of years, or even hundreds or a dozen or two, aren't insights, so surely there must be something else, something that I'm missing in Wagner....

The profound and significant insights in Wagner's stageworks are largely of the psychological sort. He in fact foreshadowed Freud in these insights into human nature and almost the whole of the underlying Freudian analysis of human nature can be reconstructed by an analysis of the thoughts, feelings, and actions of Wagner's characters in his music-dramas (as opposed to his operas). For just one astonishing example on a meta-scale, the tripartite structure of the world of Das Rheingold is a spot-on metaphoric foreshadowing of Freud's tripartite model of the human psyche made up of Id, Ego, and Superego represented in Das Rheingold's tripartite world of Nibelungs, Giants, and Gods, respectively.

Wagner was not only a master (music-)dramatist, but a master psychologist as well.

ACD
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 17, 2011, 09:14:25 AM
Quote from: A.C. Douglas on February 17, 2011, 08:56:31 AM
The profound and significant insights in Wagner's stageworks are largely of the psychological sort. He in fact foreshadowed Freud in these insights into human nature and almost the whole of the underlying Freudian analysis of human nature can be reconstructed by an analysis of the thoughts, feelings, and actions of Wagner's characters in his music-dramas (as opposed to his operas). For just one astonishing example on a meta-scale, the tripartite structure of the world of Das Rheingold is a spot-on metaphoric foreshadowing of Freud's tripartite model of the human psyche made up of Id, Ego, and Superego represented in Das Rheingold's tripartite world of Nibelungs, Giants, and Gods, respectively.

Wagner was not only a master (music-)dramatist, but a master psychologist as well.

Sorry, but that's total BS. A fair number of literary greats wrote of those same psychological conflicts (indeed, the mere fact that Freud named some of his psychological theories after classical Greek tragic characters, tells you how far back that goes - Wagner is not at all special in that respect). Yet, none of them "foreshadowed" Freud in the sense that none of them formed a cogent, abstract psychological theory the way Freud did. It is one thing to recreate a psychological conflict in a form of art. It is something else entirely to abstract this into a comprehensive theory which in effect founded the modern science of psychology. Again, your praise of Wagner would be far more credible to the non-believers if you'd "stay on the carpet", as we say in Germany.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on February 17, 2011, 09:26:47 AM
Quote from: Sherman Peabody on February 17, 2011, 07:44:48 AM
Nope.  None of these fellows, nor any other composer but Wagner has his own juggalos.  Wagner worship is an industry, like Scientology.

I am fully aware of wagnerism. I guess I didn't express myself clearly enough but I meant that composers mentioned before were wagnerians (even "worshipping fan boys") at least in some point of their life. Even almost completely rational persons may show fanaticism every now and then. Even (for a composer) surprisingly rational Brahms called himself Wagnerian often, although he wasn't really a fanatic.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kaergaard on February 17, 2011, 09:30:49 AM
Almost OT:

The folks in SF sent me a four disc CD collection as an introduction to The Ring. It has a narration by Terence McEwen, retired General Director of the opera, and musical excerpts from the Solti recordings.

And I don't want, don't need it, and will mail to anybody who wants it! It's free. Message your street address and it's on the way, 1st Class postage.

It's gone!!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 17, 2011, 09:32:18 AM
Quote from: Alberich on February 17, 2011, 09:26:47 AM
I am fully aware of wagnerism. I guess I didn't express myself clear enough but I meant that composers mentioned before were wagnerians (even "worshipping fan boys") at least in some point of their life. Even almost completely rational persons may show fanaticism every now and then. Even (for a composer) surprisingly rational Brahms called himself Wagnerian often, although he wasn't really a fanatic.

Now, you're right about Debussy, Bruckner, Sibelius, Wolf (one could add Vaughan Williams as well, for example). But Brahms? What's your source on that? The only piece of Wagner I'm aware he not just appreciated but truly loved was his Meistersinger overture, going so far as to acquire the manuscript himself. But a Wagnerian Brahms never was by any stretch of the imagination.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: A.C. Douglas on February 17, 2011, 09:48:37 AM
Quote from: Mensch on February 17, 2011, 09:14:25 AMSorry, but that's total BS. A fair number of literary greats wrote of those same psychological conflicts (indeed, the mere fact that Freud named some of his psychological theories after classical Greek tragic characters, tells you how far back that goes - Wagner is not at all special in that respect). Yet, none of them "foreshadowed" Freud in the sense that none of them formed a cogent, abstract psychological theory the way Freud did. It is one thing to recreate a psychological conflict in a form of art. It is something else entirely to abstract this into a comprehensive theory which in effect founded the modern science of psychology. Again, your praise of Wagner would be far more credible to the non-believers if you'd "stay on the carpet", as we say in Germany.

I suggest you take your own advice and "stay on the carpet" in these matters, m'boy, and don't impute to me things I never said. I never even so much as implied that Wagner foreshadowed Freud in "form[ing] a cogent, abstract psychological theory," and your introducing that matter here is nothing but a lame and transparent straw man. And all you've managed to "prove" or demonstrate by saying, "indeed, the mere fact that Freud named some of his psychological theories after classical Greek tragic characters, tells you how far back that goes - Wagner is not at all special in that respect," is that human nature hasn't changed in millennia.

Read again what I actually wrote and respond to that if you have anything that resembles pertinent and cogent comment to make; something I've yet to see from you in anything you've had to say concerning Wagner and his works.

ACD
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 17, 2011, 10:06:06 AM
Quote from: A.C. Douglas on February 17, 2011, 09:48:37 AM
I suggest you take your own advice and "stay on the carpet" in these matters, m'boy, and don't impute to me things I never said. I never even so much as implied that Wagner foreshadowed Freud in "form[ing] a cogent, abstract psychological theory," and your introducing that matter here is nothing but a lame and transparent straw man.

Let me refresh your memory:

Quote from: A.C. Douglas on February 17, 2011, 08:56:31 AM
He in fact foreshadowed Freud in these insights into human nature

Recreating psychological drama is not the same as actually formulating what insights are to be gained from that. He did not "foreshadow Freud" in any way shape or form. Indeed, the parallels you see are what you, with hinsight knowledge of Freud, interpret into Wagner's dramas.

E.g.:

Quote
For just one astonishing example on a meta-scale, the tripartite structure of the world of Das Rheingold is a spot-on metaphoric foreshadowing of Freud's tripartite model of the human psyche made up of Id, Ego, and Superego represented in Das Rheingold's tripartite world of Nibelungs, Giants, and Gods, respectively.

If you could find primary evidence that Wagner actually devised this tripartite world as a representation of something similar to Freud's model of the human psyche (a stretch in any case, since we're comparing an individual to a universe, which in its division into middle earth, divine sphere and netherworld, is neither new, unique nor special in art and literary history), only then might your claim actually have some merit. Otherwise, all this is, is you reading something into Wagner while wearing Freudian glasses.

This:

Quote from: A.C. Douglas on February 17, 2011, 08:56:31 AM
and almost the whole of the underlying Freudian analysis of human nature can be reconstructed by an analysis of the thoughts, feelings, and actions of Wagner's characters in his music-dramas

...is true of any number of works of dozens of major writers from Euripides to Shakespeare and beyond, all long predating Wagner, because:

Quote from: A.C. Douglas on February 17, 2011, 09:48:37 AM
human nature hasn't changed in millennia.

Many others long before Wagner were perfectly capable of showing the psychology of human nature on stage and in fiction. Hence why Freud speaks of Oedipal complexes and other characters from Greek tragedy, and not of "Wotan complexes". The prototypes existed well before Wagner. It's wonderful that you love Wagner so much, but your universe is a little to narrow to sustain the claims you make.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on February 17, 2011, 10:20:21 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 17, 2011, 04:18:55 AM
Well, yes. That was Wagner's aim. To bring it all back together.

And the aim of opera reformers before Wagner, and indeed of the Florentine camerata among whom the genre of opera originated. That fandom for Wagner is in part to sign on to the assertion that his reform was ne plus ultra, we take as a given.  The assertion itself, open for discussion.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on February 17, 2011, 10:22:43 AM
QuoteWagner was [...] a master psychologist as well.

ROFL
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on February 17, 2011, 10:23:36 AM
Quote from: Alberich on February 17, 2011, 09:26:47 AM
I am fully aware of wagnerism. I guess I didn't express myself clearly enough but I meant that composers mentioned before were wagnerians (even "worshipping fan boys") at least in some point of their life. Even almost completely rational persons may show fanaticism every now and then. Even (for a composer) surprisingly rational Brahms called himself Wagnerian often, although he wasn't really a fanatic.
Yes, I thought you might have meant that, but except for Bruckner (whom we all know was a few fries short of a happy meal) I don't think they were such fan boys.  Certainly every composer who came of age in the late 19th Century came under his spell (don't forget Mahler and Strauss!), but I question whether any succumbed to the sort of idolatry common among the Wagner fan boys we encounter from time to time.  There's a significant chasm between admiration and worship.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Florestan on February 17, 2011, 10:39:57 AM
Quote from: Mensch on February 17, 2011, 07:28:20 AM
Last I checked, Euripides, Sophocles & Co. didn't write opera.

It was not a question of opera but of insights about human reality.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Florestan on February 17, 2011, 10:51:30 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 17, 2011, 10:20:21 AM
And the aim of opera reformers before Wagner, and indeed of the Florentine camerata among whom the genre of opera originated.

Exactly. Monteverdi knew a thing or two about "musical drama" --- actually, dramma per musica. In terms of the theory underlying the concept, Wagner invented the wheel.  ;D  :P
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Bulldog on February 17, 2011, 10:53:55 AM
Quote from: A.C. Douglas on February 17, 2011, 08:56:31 AM
Wagner was not only a master (music-)dramatist, but a master psychologist as well.

That's all I need to hear.  If it was possible, I'd make an appointment with Wagner for a counseling session.  Of course, I wouldn't tell him I was Jewish - he might hike the price on me.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: A.C. Douglas on February 17, 2011, 11:09:46 AM
Quote from: Mensch on February 17, 2011, 10:06:06 AMRecreating psychological drama is not the same as actually formulating what insights are to be gained from that. [Wagner] did not "foreshadow Freud" in any way shape or form.

He most certainly did, and in just the way I suggested which has nothing whatsoever to do with your straw-man BS above about "actually formulating what insights are to be gained from [it]."

Quote from: Mensch on February 17, 2011, 10:06:06 AMThis [my comment that "almost the whole of the underlying Freudian analysis of human nature can be reconstructed by an analysis of the thoughts, feelings, and actions of Wagner's characters in his music-dramas"] is true of any number of works of dozens of major writers from Euripides to Shakespeare and beyond, all long predating Wagner..."

Shakespeare most assuredly, but I can think of no others in the world of letters before Wagner, and none in the world of opera. In any case, I never claimed for Wagner precedence or exclusivity in this foreshadowing of Freudian thought. Nietzsche foreshadowed Freudian thought as well, for instance.

Quote from: Mensch on February 17, 2011, 10:06:06 AMIf you could find primary evidence that Wagner actually devised this tripartite world [of Das Rheingold] as a representation of something similar to Freud's model of the human psyche ... only then might your claim actually have some merit. Otherwise, all this is, is you reading something into Wagner while wearing Freudian glasses.

Wagner synthesized that tripartite world from his Nordic and Germanic sources, but imbued the essential "species" character of the inhabitants of each part with almost the exact metaphorical equivalents of Freud's parts of the human psyche, respectively.

Did Wagner intend his tripartite world as a metaphorical model of the human psyche? Most assuredly not. It was an unconscious, intuitive stroke on Wagner's part. But that makes it no less an astonishing foreshadowing of Freudian thought on a meta-scale, as I've said.

ACD
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 17, 2011, 11:37:33 AM
Quote from: A.C. Douglas on February 17, 2011, 11:09:46 AM
He most certainly did, and in just the way I suggested which has nothing whatsoever to do with your straw-man BS above about "actually formulating what insights are to be gained from [it]."

Shakespeare most assuredly, but I can think of no others in the world of letters before Wagner, and none in the world of opera. In any case, I never claimed for Wagner precedence or exclusivity in this foreshadowing of Freudian thought. Nietzsche foreshadowed Freudian thought as well, for instance.

Wagner synthesized that tripartite world from his Nordic and Germanic sources, but imbued the essential "species" character of the inhabitants of each part with almost the exact metaphorical equivalents of Freud's parts of the human psyche, respectively.

Did Wagner intend his tripartite world as a metaphorical model of the human psyche? Most assuredly not. It was an unconscious, intuitive stroke on Wagner's part. But that makes it no less an astonishing foreshadowing of Freudian thought on a meta-scale, as I've said.

ACD

Your're going in circles (Rings, perhaps?). Not surprising, really. You clearly aren't well-versed enough in literatrure to even acknowledge that all the psychological drama that exists in Wagner has existed for centuries in literature since at least the golden age of Greek theater, and indeed in at least more stylized form in opera as well since Monteverdi. Wagner no more "foreshadowed Freud" than any of the others who came before. You now go even beyond your already unsustainable original claim by claiming that "Wagner [...] foreshadow[ed] Freudian thought." This claim is simply unsupportable. Freudian thought consists not simply of recreating the subject of analysis, namely the psychological conflict, but of actually *analyzing* and *explaning* it. What makes Freud special is the analysis, and that analysis is absent in Wagner. The "Freudian thought", hence, is completely absent. He merely recreates a prototypical subject for Freudian analysis, perhaps even a particularly interesting one and exceptionally rich one in the history of opera, but that in and of itself doesn't render any of that precociously Freudian avant le mot. Freud's intellectual contribution to the world is the analysis, not the stage setting. Anyone can do that, and indeed playwrights and authors did so repeatedly long before him and completely independently of him since. Wagner is immensely special and important to the development of Western music. But this glorification of the man, by trying to attribute some sort of superhuman genius to him in other spheres beyond the musical, is simply pathetically absurd in its complete lack of any necessity, since the man is already deservedly famous and has enough accolades to uphold his pedestal.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on February 17, 2011, 11:45:09 AM
Quote from: Mensch on February 17, 2011, 09:32:18 AM
Now, you're right about Debussy, Bruckner, Sibelius, Wolf (one could add Vaughan Williams as well, for example). But Brahms? What's your source on that? The only piece of Wagner I'm aware he not just appreciated but truly loved was his Meistersinger overture, going so far as to acquire the manuscript himself. But a Wagnerian Brahms never was by any stretch of the imagination.

"Johannes Brahms, Begegnung mit dem Menschen" by Karla Höcker. I don't remember the exact page but it mentions how annoyed Brahms was of the Brahms vs Wagner debate and that he often called himself Wagnerian: he loved Ring, although he was somewhat irritated by some monologues and endless modulations. He never went to Bayreuth so he didn't hear Parsifal (since first authorized performances outside Bayreuth took place after 30 years of premiere), and I am not sure if full score was available during his lifetime. And he considered Meistersinger as one of the best operas of all time. However, he didn't like Tristan.

(http://bilder.tauschticket.de/bilder/artikel/0086/big/1705744_big.jpg?1297975383)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 17, 2011, 11:49:49 AM
Thanks for clarifying, Alberich.

Quote from: Alberich on February 17, 2011, 11:45:09 AM
I don't remember the exact page but it mentions how annoyed Brahms was of the Brahms vs Wagner debate and that he often called himself Wagnerian: he loved Ring, although he was somewhat irritated by some monologues and endless modulations. He never went to Bayreuth so he didn't hear Parsifal (since first authorized performances outside Bayreuth took place after 30 years of premiere), and I am not sure if full score was available during his lifetime.

His comments in opposition of the anti-Wagnerian diatribes of his friend Hanslick do not really make him a "Wagnerian" in any meaningful sense, I don't think.

Quote from: Alberich on February 17, 2011, 11:45:09 AM
And he considered Meistersinger as one of the best operas of all time.

I do believe he was only referring to the Prelude, not the entire opera. That's at least what I recall reading here:

[asin]0679745823[/asin]

Höcker, while a fine writer for a younger audience, does tend to simplify a bit. I recall having some books on Mozart and Schubert by her when I was a kid.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on February 17, 2011, 12:12:05 PM
Yes, it is quite simplified biography, and it's certainly not the greatest. And to be fair, some of the biography details tend to be different, sometimes even conflicting, because not everything about Brahms is 100 % accurate. Yes, Brahms wasn't Wagnerian in traditional sense, the sentence in biography where he called himself one just kind of caught my attention. He was well aware of the flaws in other composers (and let's not get even started how self-critical he was) and Wagner was no exception.

This quote is almost identical to one in Karla Höcker's book:

"Brahms had always venerated Wagner as a musical dramatist, going so far as to quote Opera and Drama in his literary diary. And though he found Rheingold and Götterdämmerung ponderous, he gushed at the mention of Meistersinger.

Proclaiming himself the "best of Wagnerians," he defended Wagner against hasty criticism. Chiding his biographer Richard Specht in this regard, he asked, "Do you take me to be too dull to have been enchanted as anyone else by the joyousness and sublimity of Die Meister-singer? Or dishonest enough to conceal my view that I consider a few bars of this work more valuable than all the operas written since?" Indeed, the opening bars of Brahms's Violin Sonata, op. 100, echo those of Walther's "Preislied." "

Source: http://web.me.com/tmskwei/BWS/Shuddering.html

And what do you know, he actually called Rheingold and Götterdämmerung ponderous. It seems he admired Walküre and Siegfried more (although when Walküre had it's premiere, it was 1870, Franco-Prussian war knocking the door, so the valkyries may have boosted his nationalism).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: A.C. Douglas on February 17, 2011, 12:23:27 PM
Quote from: Mensch on February 17, 2011, 11:37:33 AMYour're going in circles (Rings, perhaps?). Not surprising, really. You clearly aren't well-versed enough in literatrure to even acknowledge that all the psychological drama that exists in Wagner has existed for centuries in literature since at least the golden age of Greek theater, and indeed in at least more stylized form in opera as well since Monteverdi. Wagner no more "foreshadowed Freud" than any of the others who came before. You now go even beyond your already unsustainable original claim by claiming that "Wagner [...] foreshadow[ed] Freudian thought." This claim is simply unsupportable. Freudian thought consists not simply of recreating the subject of analysis, namely the psychological conflict, but of actually *analyzing* and *explaning* it. What makes Freud special is the analysis, and that analysis is absent in Wagner. The "Freudian thought" is completely absent. He merely recreates a prototypical subject for Freudian analysis, perhaps even a particularly interesting one and exceptionally rich one in the history of opera, but that in and of itself doesn't render any of that Freudian. Freud's intellectual contribution to the world is the analysis, not the stage setting. Anyone can do that, and indeed playwrights and authors did so repeatedly long before him and completely independently of him since. Wagner is immensely special and important to the development of Western music. But this glorification of the man, by trying to attribute some sort of superhuman genius to him in other spheres beyond the musical, is simply pathetically absurd in its complete lack of any necessity, since the man is already deservedly famous and has enough accolades to uphold his pedestal.

Don't be presumptuous, my boy. I'd wager I'm at least as well versed in literature as you, and way, WAY more well versed in matters Freudian. Your totally non sequitur,

QuoteYou now go even beyond your already unsustainable original claim by claiming that "Wagner [...] foreshadow[ed] Freudian thought." This claim is simply unsupportable. Freudian thought consists not simply of recreating the subject of analysis, namely the psychological conflict, but of actually *analyzing* and *explaining* it. What makes Freud special is the analysis, and that analysis is absent in Wagner.

is not only confused but misses the point. Freudian thought concerns itself with the unconscious determinants of human behavior, the analyzing and explaining with the clinical aspects of that thought. Wagner was no clinician, and therefore the analyzing and explaining no part of Wagner's foreshadowing of Freudian thinking.

As to my alleged (by you) "glorification of [Wagner] by trying to attribute some sort of superhuman genius to him in other spheres beyond the musical," don't be preposterous. I never engage in such idiocy and nothing I've ever written about Wagner and his works, here or elsewhere, has ever attempted anything even approaching "glorification" of the man or the music-dramatist. I leave that sort of thing to the noxious race of Wagnerites among which I'm not numbered.

ACD
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on February 17, 2011, 12:45:44 PM
Quote from: A.C. Douglas on February 14, 2011, 04:04:24 PM
Musically, you didn't miss much with the Met's new Rheingold, and the Lepage staging got pretty much of a drubbing from the more knowledgeable and discriminating MSM critics (Alex Ross, Martin Bernheimer, and Anne Midgette). As for Die Walküre, I'm afraid it's a crap shoot as is the rest of the cycle vis-à-vis the staging unless Lepage gets his act together, and musically, well, I guess that's a crap shoot as well.

Damn shame.

ACD

Did you or did you not see these productions in any format? Or are you merely relaying the opinions of others? I just like to know where we are when you make this kind of pronouncement.

Knight
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: A.C. Douglas on February 17, 2011, 12:56:50 PM
Quote from: knight66 on February 17, 2011, 12:45:44 PM
Did you or did you not see these productions in any format? Or are you merely relaying the opinions of others? I just like to know where we are when you make this kind of pronouncement.

Knight

Which productions? I was speaking above of the new Met Rheingold the premiere of which I auditioned through the Met's simulcast (the audio was splendid), but for the staging of which I depended upon the reports of what I've called my "three surrogate eyes and ears" (Alex Ross, Martin Berhheimer, and Anne Midgette) as I thought I made perfectly clear.

ACD
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on February 17, 2011, 01:02:15 PM
It was clear from your writing that you had not seen Rheingold; still rather less so the 'Walkure'.

Knight
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: A.C. Douglas on February 17, 2011, 01:05:16 PM
Quote from: knight66 on February 17, 2011, 01:02:15 PM
It was clear from your writing that you had not seen Rheingold; still rather less so the 'Walkure'.

Knight

No one has seen or heard the Walkure yet. That's why I called it a "crap shoot."

ACD
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on February 17, 2011, 01:09:19 PM
Yes, I know....so basically you pronounce on something that you not only have not seen; Rheingold, but that no one has seen because it has not taken place, Walkure.

I know you like to be taken seriously in your opinions, so this kind of approach helps us to understand your aspiration to being a reliable critic.

Knight

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 17, 2011, 01:10:26 PM
Quote from: A.C. Douglas on February 17, 2011, 12:23:27 PM
Don't be presumptuous, my boy. I'd wager I'm at least as well versed in literature as you, and way, WAY more well versed in matters Freudian. Your totally non sequitur,

If you are out to provoke me through your unbelievably arrogant tone, I'm afraid I won't humor you.

We're going in circles. You keep insisting that Wagner's characterization of certain human psychological drama, which isn't all that special in the world of literature, prefigures the intellectual concepts of Freud, even though Wagner, *like all those who preceded him*, never articulates any of Freud's actual thought or theories, but *like all the others* merely provides an - albeit compelling - re-staging of common human psychological contexts, which *like all the others* were the subject of Freud's study. Fine. Logic bypasses you and you claim to be well versed in literature, but evidently are so blinded by your faith in the uniqueness of Wagner to see what that knowledge of literature should teach you. It is evident that talking to you is like talking about evolution to a fundamentalist Christian = it's completely pointless. I have done my work here. My arguments stand above in this thread for all those with functioning grey matter to process. I won't engage in further useless debate on this issue.

This, however:

Quote from: A.C. Douglas on February 17, 2011, 12:23:27 PM
As to my alleged (by you) "glorification of [Wagner] by trying to attribute some sort of superhuman genius to him in other spheres beyond the musical," don't be preposterous. I never engage in such idiocy and nothing I've ever written about Wagner and his works, here or elsewhere, has ever attempted anything even approaching "glorification" of the man or the music-dramatist. I leave that sort of thing to the noxious race of Wagnerites among which I'm not numbered.

... is just riotously funny. You, ACD, the internet's Wagnerian one-trick-pony, claim not to be a Wagnerite! Oh if only you indeed were so well-versed in literature as to know irony!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: A.C. Douglas on February 17, 2011, 01:14:27 PM
Quote from: knight66 on February 17, 2011, 01:09:19 PM
Yes, I know....so basically you pronounce on something that you not only have not seen; Rheingold, but that no one has seen because it has not taken place, Walkure.

I know you like to be taken seriously in your opinions, so this kind of approach helps us to understand your aspiration to being a reliable critic.

Knight

Ah! I see now. You really do think that someone is disqualified from pronouncing anything about an opera production unless one has seen it either in the house or on DVD.

Interesting.

ACD
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: A.C. Douglas on February 17, 2011, 01:21:22 PM
Quote from: Mensch on February 17, 2011, 01:10:26 PM
[It's] just riotously funny. You, ACD, the internet's Wagnerian one-trick-pony, claim not to be a Wagnerite! Oh if only you indeed were so well-versed in literature as to know irony!

And if only you were so well versed in matters Wagnerian as to know the difference between a Wagnerite and a Wagnerian.

And you're quite right. No point in continuing this, um, discussion. You don't want to engage in discourse or learn. Like a callow adolescent, you merely want to win an argument.

Do take care.

ACD
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on February 17, 2011, 01:29:59 PM
Quote from: A.C. Douglas on February 17, 2011, 01:21:22 PMAnd you're quite right. No point in continuing this, um, discussion. You don't want to engage in discourse or learn. Like a callow adolescent, you merely want to win an argument.

A stunning irony to see you accuse another of this.  "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"   ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on February 17, 2011, 01:50:27 PM
Goodness.  I see that Newman Douglas is still here, as charming, gracious, and teachable as ever. 

Elsewhere, Mensch, you questioned the existence of personality disorders.  Do you still doubt?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on February 17, 2011, 01:50:38 PM
Quote from: A.C. Douglas on February 17, 2011, 01:14:27 PM
Ah! I see now. You really do think that someone is disqualified from pronouncing anything about an opera production unless one has seen it either in the house or on DVD.

Interesting.

ACD

I know, I know, it is frightfully old fashioned of me to imagine that to hold respect, ones opinions might be ones own, not second hand. Additionally that they be based on experience rather than prejudice reinforced through consulting your crystal ball. But there we are.

I see you aspire to a kind of post modern criticism. An attitude that means you pronounce, with seeming authority, on events that have not yet happened and that you would not dream of attending even when they do occur.

I find this a refreshing method of proving your reliability as an observer and commentator of the artform. Any cast iron prognostications on this week's lottery numbers?

Knight
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 17, 2011, 01:56:53 PM
Quote from: Sherman Peabody on February 17, 2011, 01:50:27 PM
Goodness.  I see that Newman Douglas is still here, as charming, gracious, and teachable as ever. 

Elsewhere, Mensch, you questioned the existence of personality disorders.  Do you still doubt?

Oh, I didn't question their existence. I just questioned whether a) truly everything that is classified as a personality disorder these days is indeed a personality disorder or rather an excuse for the pharma industry to market psychopharmaceuticals; and b) whether that proportion, even if it is as high as you say, is the cause of the divorce rate we were discussing in the other thread. It seems rather that people with severe personality disorders rarely find themselves in the position to have someone to divorce.  ;)

But this is waaay OT.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on February 17, 2011, 02:00:25 PM
Quote from: Sherman Peabody on February 17, 2011, 01:50:27 PM
Goodness.  I see that Newman Douglas is still here, as charming, gracious, and teachable as ever. 


Oh....are they one and the same person? I fell for it hook, line etc. I did not know the entire persona was a leg-pull.....very well sustained.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Walther von Stolzing on February 17, 2011, 03:37:49 PM
Quote from: Sherman Peabody on February 17, 2011, 07:57:21 AM
Yes, but some claim that Wagner's work expresses "profound" or "significant" insights.  Things known and expressed in literature for thousands of years, or even hundreds or a dozen or two, aren't insights, so surely there must be something else, something that I'm missing in Wagner...unless those who credit him with such insights may have encountered them first in Wagner and not been aware that they  did not originate with him...?

And, heavens, no, let's not dismiss Wagner.  His achievement was remarkable and he wrote some gorgeous music.  But let's temper our admiration with a rational and realistic appraisal of his accomplishment and not credit him with creating the Earth in seven days or inventing sliced bread.

You seem to be flipping the issue in order to make a different point. I did in fact claim that Wagner's work expresses profound and significant insights. I believe they do. I made an effort to illustrate how and why they do so. I never claimed that his insights were original, or that he was the only artist in the history of the world to have them! But the fact that they are not necessarily original does not preclude them from being profound. The reason I respond to Wagner's art is that he strikes me as being exceptionally good at expressing certain insights, at showing the audience the nature of something from a particular point of view, of mirroring aspects of ourselves in the works and thereby expanding our consciousness. And like all great dramatists, he had an intuitive grasp of human psychology, which is how he could express a wide array of emotions and vividly depict the motivations behind the actions of his characters. If there is anything original in his insights, it most certainly comes in the way he delivered them. Even his detractors admit there is something singular about his music dramas. For me it's the insights he expresses and the way in which he expresses them, through his unique blend of music and drama, that make him so special. I encountered the ancient Greek dramatists before Wagner, I encountered Virgil and Homer and Shakespeare before Wagner, and many more. Yet Wagner still holds a special place in my heart.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Chaszz on February 17, 2011, 04:56:37 PM
A few responses with the quotes they refer to unreproduced, as those are from different posters and I don't have the technical skill to gather them all here:

Opera was not unprecedented. It was an attempt to revive ancient Greek drama, which contained music and dance. In linking tragedy with music, opera was probably more like Greek drama than any playmaking before or since.

I would appreciate knowing the source for the assertion that Brahms disliked Tristan. Brahms highly desired to have a manuscript of Tristan, and wrote Wagner asking for one. One was unavailable so Wagner sent him a manuscript of Rheingold instead. I have always assumed Brahms wanted to delve in detail into the new harmony which Tristan pioneered, but I could be wrong. He was also an assiduous collector of music manuscripts, and maybe he wanted one of Tristan mostly for his collection. Even if that is true, it is significant that Tristan is what he wanted. Could he have recognized its significance and disliked it also? Perhaps he disliked what he could not yet understand, and hoped to learn to appreciate it by reading the score closely.

Brahms held onto the Rheingold manuscript, perhaps wanting to add it to his collection, until Wagner finally wrote asking for it back.

Brahms wanted to go to the Ring premiere, but stayed away fearing he would be verbally abused by Wagner partisans.

When Wagner died, Brahms dismissed his chorus rehearsal, saying "We will not work today, a master has died."

One's heart sinks at seeing AC Douglas back in these precincts. Having encountered him before in several forums, one hoped when he stormed furiously out of here (I think it was here, though I might be wrong) a few years ago he was gone for good. Here he comes back again when least expected like Alberich in Gotterdammerung. His arguments may be wrong but they are at least defensible; however his debating style is not. It seems he cannot disagree with someone without sooner or later calling his interlocutor an idiot. As he descends further and further into insulting people, perhaps this time he will be banned.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on February 17, 2011, 10:44:54 PM
Chazz,

Thanks for that, it makes its points well and is interesting; as are the contributions of several posters who have managed to do this whilst stepping around the passive/aggressive Mr D.

As you will gather from my contributions, I am not an admirer. I would give Mr D more credence if he was to arrive simply to tell us something interesting. However his norm is to swoop in and belittle someone because they have seemingly denigrated his idol and take all possible opportunity to trash all modern productions of Wagner's works. Anything interesting that he provides is incidental to his real reason for appearing: to attack.

At least two posters here have countered the less than adulatory posts on the subject of Wagner's music with interesting and able posts, Mr D may now conclude that his presence in defence of Wagner is simply not needed. There are others who can do that job without insulting those holding a differing opinion.

Knight
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on February 17, 2011, 11:10:12 PM
Quote from: Chaszz on February 17, 2011, 04:56:37 PM
I would appreciate knowing the source for the assertion that Brahms disliked Tristan. Brahms highly desired to have a manuscript of Tristan, and wrote Wagner asking for one.

Actually, he asked for Meistersinger's manuscript. But, the link I gave in my previous post shows that Brahms indeed may have shown admiration towards Tristan, although maybe more reserved than with other dramas.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: A.C. Douglas on February 18, 2011, 03:15:50 AM
Quote from: Chaszz on February 17, 2011, 04:56:37 PMBrahms highly desired to have a manuscript of Tristan, and wrote Wagner asking for one. One was unavailable so Wagner sent him a manuscript of Rheingold instead. I have always assumed Brahms wanted to delve in detail into the new harmony which Tristan pioneered, but I could be wrong. He was also an assiduous collector of music manuscripts, and maybe he wanted one of Tristan mostly for his collection. Even if that is true, it is significant that Tristan is what he wanted. Could he have recognized its significance and disliked it also? Perhaps he disliked what he could not yet understand, and hoped to learn to appreciate it by reading the score closely. Brahms held onto the Rheingold manuscript, perhaps wanting to add it to his collection, until Wagner finally wrote asking for it back.

As I instructed you on this matter many years ago, that is quite incorrect on a number of points. The score of Tristan played no part in this particular incident. As I informed you then, the incident began when Wagner's friend, one Carl Tausig by name, without authorization, lent Brahms the score for the Venusberg section of the Paris Tannhäuser. Later, when W desperately needed the score back and requested its return, B refused, insisting, falsely, that it was given him as a gift. B then proposed to W that he would return the score if W would send him in its place the score of Meistersinger. W, in desperation, agreed but couldn't get his hands on an unattached copy and so proposed that he send B a copy of the score of Rheingold instead, and B accepted.

Quote from: Chaszz on February 17, 2011, 04:56:37 PMOne's heart sinks at seeing AC Douglas back in these precincts. Having encountered him before in several forums, one hoped when he stormed furiously out of here (I think it was here, though I might be wrong) a few years ago he was gone for good. Here he comes back again when least expected like Alberich in Gotterdammerung. His arguments may be wrong but they are at least defensible; however his debating style is not. It seems he cannot disagree with someone without sooner or later calling his interlocutor an idiot. As he descends further and further into insulting people, perhaps this time he will be banned.

Oh dear. How unkind — and unfair, too.

First, I call my "interlocutors" idiots only when they're, you know, idiots. And second, I'm almost never wrong which is why my arguments are almost always "defensible".

See how that works?

ACD
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: A.C. Douglas on February 18, 2011, 03:19:53 AM
Quote from: knight66 on February 17, 2011, 10:44:54 PM
Chazz,

Thanks for that, it makes its points well and is interesting; as are the contributions of several posters who have managed to do this whilst stepping around the passive/aggressive Mr D[ouglas].

As you will gather from my contributions, I am not an admirer. I would give Mr D more credence if he was to arrive simply to tell us something interesting. However his norm is to swoop in and belittle someone because they have seemingly denigrated his idol and take all possible opportunity to trash all modern productions of Wagner's works. Anything interesting that he provides is incidental to his real reason for appearing: to attack.

At least two posters here have countered the less than adulatory posts on the subject of Wagner's music with interesting and able posts, Mr D may now conclude that his presence in defence of Wagner is simply not needed. There are others who can do that job without insulting those holding a differing opinion.

Knight

I'm well aware of your dislike (dare I say, hatred) of my good self, but as you're a moderator here you really ought to exercise more caution and discretion when throwing about such nasty and insupportable charges publicly. As I informed your fellow moderator, Gurnatron5500, the infrequent times I pass through this forum and pause to engage in argument it's because of the appalling Wagner-ignorance of a number of your regular members. And it's not merely that they're Wagner-ignorant, but that they're arrogantly Wagner-ignorant and at least in the case of one of them, a crypto-Wagner-hater into the bargain. (You've another certified Wagner-ignorant Wagner-hater here to my knowledge, but so far he's contributed only a couple lame potshots to this thread during my time here.) Had you exercised due caution and discretion as a moderator you would have seen that the ugly insults began NOT with me, but with one of your regular members (well, actually two of your regular members, but the other one didn't mention me by name although the wording of his very ugly insult made it perfectly clear to just about everyone to whom he was referring). I merely responded in kind and with admirable restraint as I've already noted in my exchange with Gurnatron5500.

All the above notwithstanding, you've nothing further to fear from my presence here. As I've already noted, I'm just passing through and have no intention whatsoever of hanging out. Believe what you will but I've little appetite for this sort of argument and little time for it, and so will retire from active participation in this series of arguments as it's clear my input is neither appreciated nor wanted here.

Just one last closing remark: You really ought to consult a psychiatric dictionary and look up the term "passive[-]aggressive" before using it again. You really ought to, you know.

ACD
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on February 18, 2011, 07:31:04 AM
Quote from: A.C. Douglas on February 18, 2011, 03:19:53 AM
I'm well aware of your dislike (dare I say, hatred) of my good self, but as you're a moderator here you really ought to exercise more caution and discretion when throwing about such nasty and insupportable charges publicly. As I informed your fellow moderator, Gurnatron5500, the infrequent times I pass through this forum and pause to engage in argument it's because of the appalling Wagner-ignorance of a number of your regular members. And it's not merely that they're Wagner-ignorant, but that they're arrogantly Wagner-ignorant and at least in the case of one of them, a crypto-Wagner-hater into the bargain. (You've another certified Wagner-ignorant Wagner-hater here to my knowledge, but so far he's contributed only a couple lame potshots to this thread during my time here.) Had you exercised due caution and discretion as a moderator you would have seen that the ugly insults began NOT with me, but with one of your regular members (well, actually two of your regular members, but the other one didn't mention me by name although the wording of his very ugly insult made it perfectly clear to just about everyone to whom he was referring). I merely responded in kind and with admirable restraint as I've already noted in my exchange with Gurnatron5500.

All the above notwithstanding, you've nothing further to fear from my presence here. As I've already noted, I'm just passing through and have no intention whatsoever of hanging out. Believe what you will but I've little appetite for this sort of argument and little time for it, and so will retire from active participation in this series of arguments as it's clear my input is neither appreciated nor wanted here.

Just one last closing remark: You really ought to consult a psychiatric dictionary and look up the term "passive[-]aggressive" before using it again. You really ought to, you know.

ACD


Excellent!!!!!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 18, 2011, 07:50:28 AM
This sounds correct:

Quote from: A.C. Douglas on February 18, 2011, 03:15:50 AM
As I instructed you on this matter many years ago, that is quite incorrect on a number of points. The score of Tristan played no part in this particular incident. As I informed you then, the incident began when Wagner's friend, one Carl Tausig by name, without authorization, lent Brahms the score for the Venusberg section of the Paris Tannhäuser. Later, when W desperately needed the score back and requested its return, B refused, insisting, falsely, that it was given him as a gift. B then proposed to W that he would return the score if W would send him in its place the score of Meistersinger. W, in desperation, agreed but couldn't get his hands on an unattached copy and so proposed that he send B a copy of the score of Rheingold instead, and B accepted.

That matches what I recall reading about Brahms. I do think Brahms did end up acquiring the manuscript to the Meistersinger Prelude after Wagner's death at some point, but I'd have to double check my sources.

ACD, has it ever occurred to you that, if your objective is to counter and correct this:

Quote from: A.C. Douglas on February 18, 2011, 03:19:53 AM
the appalling Wagner-ignorance of a number of your regular members.

... but the result you repeatedly achieve, both here an elswhere on the interwebz, is this:

Quote from: A.C. Douglas on February 18, 2011, 03:19:53 AM
I'm well aware of your dislike (dare I say, hatred) of my good self

.... maybe you ought to, shall we say, 'fine-tune', or even wholesale discard and replace, your current, shall we call them, 'pedagocic methods'?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 18, 2011, 08:37:33 AM
Quote from: A.C. Douglas on February 18, 2011, 03:19:53 AM
I'm well aware of your dislike (dare I say, hatred) of my good self . . .

"If you give me your attention, I will tell you what I am:
I'm a genuine philanthropist — all other kinds are sham.
Each little fault of temper and each social defect
In my erring fellow-creatures, I endeavour to correct.
To all their little weaknesses I open people's eyes;
And little plans to snub the self-sufficient I devise;
I love my fellow creatures — I do all the good I can —
Yet ev'rybody says I'm such a disagreeable man!
And I can't think why!"
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on February 18, 2011, 08:51:24 AM
Stop responding to it, for Chrissake. Ignoring works better than complaining... and all the post-discussion bickering only encourages it to come back for some sniping.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on February 18, 2011, 09:17:21 AM
But, Jens, I did thoroughly enjoy the poetical snippet Sforz provided, both in itself, and in this context.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on February 18, 2011, 09:22:36 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 18, 2011, 09:17:21 AM
But, Jens, I did thoroughly enjoy the poetical snippet Sforz provided, both in itself, and in this context.

That, truly, was the exception to the rule.  :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on February 18, 2011, 03:29:34 PM
And a master psychologist, to boot.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 18, 2011, 04:57:52 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 18, 2011, 03:29:34 PM
And a master psychologist, to boot.

;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 18, 2011, 05:15:41 PM
Quote from: Soapy Molloy on February 18, 2011, 03:27:47 PM
Now there was a librettist.

As I've always said, I'd be a fool not to consider Parsifal a very great work, but if it comes to what I'd rather listen to, I'll take G+S any time.  :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on February 19, 2011, 12:17:55 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on February 18, 2011, 05:15:41 PM
As I've always said, I'd be a fool not to consider Parsifal a very great work...
A very innocent fool, at that!
Quote from: Sforzando on February 18, 2011, 05:15:41 PM
...but if it comes to what I'd rather listen to, I'll take G+S any time.  :)
Speaking of which: It was brought to my attention only earlier this month that, to my astonishment, Penzance is actually a real place.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 19, 2011, 06:24:49 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 19, 2011, 12:17:55 AM
It was brought to my attention only earlier this month that, to my astonishment, Penzance is actually a real place.

Indeed it is, though pirate-free.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Florestan on February 19, 2011, 07:28:52 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on February 18, 2011, 05:15:41 PM
As I've always said, I'd be a fool not to consider Parsifal a very great work, but if it comes to what I'd rather listen to, I'll take G+S any time.  :)

"Parsifal - the kind of opera that starts at six o'clock and after it has been going three hours, you look at your watch and it says 6:20" ---  David Randolph

I have no idea who DR was, but he certainly made a cogent point.  ;D :P
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on February 19, 2011, 10:17:17 AM
No, no! The Prelude is a nice little ten minutes of music, really it is!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 19, 2011, 01:41:47 PM
Noël Coward about Camelot: "My God, it's as long as PARSIFAL, but without the jokes!"
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on February 19, 2011, 02:06:46 PM
Nice!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Chaszz on February 19, 2011, 08:54:53 PM
Quote from: Eusebius on February 19, 2011, 07:28:52 AM
"Parsifal - the kind of opera that starts at six o'clock and after it has been going three hours, you look at your watch and it says 6:20" ---  David Randolph

I have no idea who DR was, but he certainly made a cogent point.  ;D :P

To appreciate Parsifal, one must see it as well as hear it. It lends itself less to pure hearing than any other opera I know. And its creator did have this little tic about a unity of the arts, just saying.  At the Met production by Otto Schenk, with sets and projections by Gunther Schneider-Siemssen, which has been around since the early nineties and which I saw six or seven years ago conducted by Valery Gergiev, I was enthralled throughout. Not that the five hours didn't seem like five hours, but they were five quite magical hours.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 20, 2011, 12:00:39 AM
I have never seen Parsifal performed. And I don't have any problems with its length, nor with the strict observance of the unities. But I am used to reading plays and using my imagination. The few stagings of Wagner I have seen, have never had the same impact as purely listening to them. Perhaps, as a literary guy, that says more about me than about the performances. I always forget about the existence of DVDs, too...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on February 20, 2011, 05:13:26 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 20, 2011, 12:00:39 AM
I have never seen Parsifal performed. And I don't have any problems with its length, nor with the strict observance of the unities. But I am used to reading plays and using my imagination. The few stagings of Wagner I have seen, have never had the same impact as purely listening to them.

I can sign on to all this. Seeing it performed only serves to emphasize the tattered psychology and dramaturgy ; )
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 20, 2011, 05:22:12 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 20, 2011, 05:13:26 AM
I can sign on to all this. Seeing it performed only serves to emphasize the tattered psychology and dramaturgy ; )


:D  What bothers me more is the slant imposed by the director. I'd rather do the interpreting myself, with my mind as stage or film set. Wagner himself wished he had invented the invisible stage, so I'm simply following in the Master's footsteps.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on February 21, 2011, 12:26:52 PM
Wagner without the Wagner:

Review: Virginia Opera's Wagnerian shortcoming
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/20/AR2011022003440.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/20/AR2011022003440.html)


"To be fair, there are defendable reasons for cutting a Wagner score -
limited rehearsal time, budgets that would burst at the seams from the
overtime costs to union musicians playing works that can run over five
hours, a desire to introduce Wagner-phobic patrons to some glorious
music in smaller doses, etc. But there's sensible trimming, and then
there's whole-scale butchery."
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 21, 2011, 08:44:00 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 20, 2011, 12:00:39 AM
I have never seen Parsifal performed. And I don't have any problems with its length, nor with the strict observance of the unities. But I am used to reading plays and using my imagination. The few stagings of Wagner I have seen, have never had the same impact as purely listening to them. Perhaps, as a literary guy, that says more about me than about the performances. I always forget about the existence of DVDs, too...

Quote from: Chaszz on February 19, 2011, 08:54:53 PM
To appreciate Parsifal, one must see it as well as hear it. It lends itself less to pure hearing than any other opera I know. And its creator did have this little tic about a unity of the arts, just saying.  At the Met production by Otto Schenk, with sets and projections by Gunther Schneider-Siemssen, which has been around since the early nineties and which I saw six or seven years ago conducted by Valery Gergiev, I was enthralled throughout. Not that the five hours didn't seem like five hours, but they were five quite magical hours.

I can empathize with both perspectives. But I think it depends on the opera and on the staging. The Ring, Lohengrin and Meistersinger I would certainly want to see on stage. The visuals are simply part of the whole. Parsifal I can go either way. If the staging is good, it does add something meaningful. But it is not necessarily essential. Tristan, I can do without the stage. Apart from the first act, for the rest, all you need is to be able to see the faces of the lead singers. The rest is just a waste of real estate, because the vast majority of the space on stage simply isn't needed for any physical action.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on February 22, 2011, 11:00:07 AM
I find kind of outrageous how top 20 most frequently performed operas in North America don't include single one from Wagner. True, most of his operas are not that simple to get on stage, but considering how grand opera like Aida is on the list...

About 1,5 months till Parsifal in National opera. It has been long time since my last live Parsifal, let's see if they are able to do a decent performance.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on February 22, 2011, 11:06:00 AM
Quote from: Alberich on February 22, 2011, 11:00:07 AM
I find kind of outrageous how top 20 most frequently performed operas in North America don't include single one from Wagner.

Why outrageous, exactly?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on February 22, 2011, 11:08:20 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 22, 2011, 11:06:00 AM
Why outrageous, exactly?

I blame Wagner for not writing Operas that are less boring. 
[runs away]
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on February 22, 2011, 11:13:43 AM
Actually, I can't find any Strauss operas either. How nice of them to almost totally dismiss german operas.

I blame fame of shapeless coloratura arias.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on February 22, 2011, 11:17:56 AM
Quote from: Alberich on February 22, 2011, 11:00:07 AM
I find kind of outrageous how top 20 most frequently performed operas in North America don't include single one from Wagner.
Full circle in just ten pages.

Does outrage preclude honest inquiry into the reasons these works are not as popular as you would like them to be?  If not, then the next logical step is asking why that is, and whether something about the nature of the works themselves inhibits such popularity.  Thus http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,113.msg490404.html#msg490404

Quote from: Alberich on February 22, 2011, 11:13:43 AM
I blame fame of shapeless coloratura arias.
Couldn't it be that there are just far more operas that offer more dramatically convincing story and more musically satisfying song of the sort that appeal to most audiences?  For instance, I love much of the music in Der Rosenkavalier, but the story's a bit of a mess.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on February 22, 2011, 11:22:27 AM
Quote from: Sherman Peabody on February 22, 2011, 11:17:56 AM
Couldn't it be that there are just far more operas that offer more dramatically convincing story and more musically satisfying song of the sort that appeal to most audiences?

Let's see... no.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 22, 2011, 11:23:24 AM
Quote from: Sherman Peabody on February 22, 2011, 11:17:56 AM
Couldn't it be that there are just far more operas that offer more dramatically convincing story and more musically satisfying song of the sort that appeal to most audiences?

That's a silly point. Many of the most popular operas have completely preposterous plots, two-dimensional characters, etc. etc. Popularity has never been a measure of artistic quality. Often quite the contrary.

Does someone have a link to this list of 20 most popular operas in the US that y'all are talking about?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on February 22, 2011, 11:25:15 AM
Quote from: Sherman Peabody on February 22, 2011, 11:17:56 AM
For instance, I love much of the music in Der Rosenkavalier, but the story's a bit of a mess.

Yeah, like fully armed chief of police getting murdered by a chick (and everyone in the building are like they don't hear anything) isn't messy at all.

@Mensch: http://listoftheday.blogspot.com/2007/10/top-20-operas.html
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on February 22, 2011, 11:37:10 AM
Quote from: Alberich on February 22, 2011, 11:25:15 AM
Yeah, like fully armed chief of police getting murdered by a chick (and everyone in the building are like they don't hear anything) isn't messy at all.

It happened in the town were I lived.

And then, the next year, this little dwarf dude stole all the gold that the thee blond chicks had stashed in the bottom of the river, and by the next week the whole place had burned down.  Oh wait, that one didn't happen.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 22, 2011, 11:41:26 AM
Quote from: Alberich on February 22, 2011, 11:25:15 AM
@Mensch: http://listoftheday.blogspot.com/2007/10/top-20-operas.html

Thanks. Wagner has always had a hard time in the US, post-WWII, given the association with anti-Semitism. Funny, of course, that US audiences will nevertheless watch operas that are openly mysoginistic (Magic Flute) and glorify enslavement of Africans (Magic Flute, Aida), as well as operas that are kitschy pastiches of exoticised Asia (Butterfly and Turandot). That doesn't seem to bother anyone.  ;)

Of course, then there is the problem that Wagner is often difficult to cast and expensive to produce, requiring also larger orchestras than most US opera houses have on their regular roster.

I seem to recall another list here on GMG recently that had Holländer in the top 20. Was that a global popularity list?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on February 22, 2011, 11:50:41 AM
Quote from: Sherman Peabody on February 22, 2011, 11:17:56 AM
Full circle in just ten pages.

Does outrage preclude honest inquiry into the reasons these works are not as popular as you would like them to be?  If not, then the next logical step is asking why that is, and whether something about the nature of the works themselves inhibits such popularity.  Thus http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,113.msg490404.html#msg490404
* * * * * * * * * *
Couldn't it be that there are just far more operas that offer more dramatically convincing story and more musically satisfying song of the sort that appeal to most audiences?  For instance, I love much of the music in Der Rosenkavalier, but the story's a bit of a mess.

You're right on the money with the first point--but I'd have to agree with the others on the second; before Wagner, dramatically convincing stories were the rare exception. True drama-with-music gets an unparalleled boost from Wagner. The only reason these operas don't make sense to modern audiences (apart from the mentioned difficulties of getting into them in the first place) are the asinine "conservative" [actually: reactionary] productions that have been put on so often in the US.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on February 22, 2011, 11:57:34 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on February 22, 2011, 11:37:10 AM
It happened in the town were I lived.

And then, the next year, this little dwarf dude stole all the gold that the thee blond chicks had stashed in the bottom of the river, and by the next week the whole place had burned down.  Oh wait, that one didn't happen.

I stole purse from few chicks, melted coins into a magic ring and then some pyromaniac burned some place down, in name of Loge, of course.

And if that police thing really happened, I would say: good riddance. Even my granny could hold her own in situation like that... and she's dead.

// You know, there is difference between complaining about quality and wishing for good productions. And since so many people keep yammering about lack of action in Wagner's operas, wouldn't lack of action make frequent performances rather easy?

Edit 2: Oh well, if one is looking for realism in operas, he/she is about to get disappointed. But in fact: I love Tosca. I just don't see what makes Wagner operas so boring compared to others (oh come on, if because of the long monologues, then Hamlet would be boring too!)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on February 22, 2011, 12:04:54 PM
Quote from: Alberich on February 22, 2011, 11:57:34 AMAnd if that police thing really happened, I would say: good riddance. Even my granny could hold her own in situation like that... and she's dead.

Don't underestimate the element of surprise.  Chief detective was called on a domestic disturbance, was trying to calm down mentally disturbed woman, who suddenly lunged at him and stabbed him in the neck.  I don't see anything wrong with Tosca as a well constructed bit of drama.  Maybe not the most sophisticated bit of drama in the world, but it works for me, especially with the music. 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on February 22, 2011, 12:14:00 PM
One of Alberich's errors is in equating [non-appearance among the 20 most frequently performed operas] with [total dismissal of German opera]
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on February 22, 2011, 12:24:10 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 22, 2011, 12:14:00 PM
One of Alberich's errors is in equating [non-appearance among the 20 most frequently performed operas] with [total dismissal of German opera]

With all due respect, haven't thou ever exaggerated? Kind of funny how almost every single positive comment about Wagner leads into fierce struggle (I am not completely blameless in this case) while unreasonable and unwarranted mocking is ignored.

//  @Scarpia: Ok, my granny comparison about that cop was completely uncalled for. My douchebag line of the day.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on February 22, 2011, 01:02:59 PM
Quote from: Mensch on February 22, 2011, 11:23:24 AM
That's a silly point. Many of the most popular operas have completely preposterous plots, two-dimensional characters, etc. etc. Popularity has never been a measure of artistic quality. Often quite the contrary.

Does someone have a link to this list of 20 most popular operas in the US that y'all are talking about?
But we are talking about popularity.  And the question is not about some hypothetical agreed on standards of preposterous, dimensionality, or artistic quality, but of what appeals to American opera audiences enough to get a work on the top 20 list.  Plots that can be easily followed over 3 hours that feature human beings (not Gods and dwarves and magic Easter bonnets), packed with plenty of pleasingly tuneful songs, pretty well describes the top 20 operas referenced above.

Dismiss the point as silly if you like. 

Hmmm...Der Rosenkavalier didn't make the list, either.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on February 22, 2011, 01:07:58 PM
Quote from: Alberich on February 22, 2011, 11:25:15 AM
@Mensch: http://listoftheday.blogspot.com/2007/10/top-20-operas.html (http://listoftheday.blogspot.com/2007/10/top-20-operas.html)

Thanks for this!

(The accent circonflexe on Così is peculiar . . . .)

I think it fairly obvious, in the first place, that Wagner's operas demand professional production.  Wherever you have smaller-budget companies, and summer stock opera, in North America, you'll find that their repertory is dominated by the titles in this list.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 22, 2011, 01:12:47 PM
Quote from: Sherman Peabody on February 22, 2011, 01:02:59 PM
But we are talking about popularity.  And the question is not about some hypothetical agreed on standards of preposterous, dimensionality, or artistic quality, but of what appeals to American opera audiences enough to get a work on the top 20 list.  Plots that can be easily followed over 3 hours that feature human beings (not Gods and dwarves and magic Easter bonnets), packed with plenty of pleasingly tuneful songs, pretty well describes the top 20 operas referenced above.

Dismiss the point as silly if you like. 

Hmmm...Der Rosenkavalier didn't make the list, either.

Your point was that supposedly the more popular operas, not by Wagner, have:

Quote from: Sherman Peabody on February 22, 2011, 11:17:56 AM
more dramatically convincing story

That's of course a subjective point. But taking that into account, you can't necessarily say that the top 20 are the best in those regards. Turandot, Magic Flute, Fledermaus, Trovatore, to name but a few, have rather silly stories. And again, popularity has nothing to do with quality. Otherwise we should all subject ourselves to the implied superiority of Michael Jackson and Britney Spears.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on February 22, 2011, 01:14:52 PM
Quote from: Alberich on February 22, 2011, 12:24:10 PM
Kind of funny how almost every single positive comment about Wagner leads into fierce struggle
How is
QuoteI find kind of outrageous how top 20 most frequently performed operas in North America don't include single one from Wagner.
a positive comment about Wagner?

And I and others have made many positive comments about Wagner that haven't provoked struggle.  Could it be that it's not positive comments, but unwarranted and exaggerated comments supported only by subjective opinion, that provoke the struggles?  If you look around, you'll see that it's not only such comments regarding Wagner that provoke a response requesting support for them.  Similar struggles have occurred following such comments about Elgar and Mendelssohn, for instance, both significant composers of considerable (but not Godlike) merit.  But scarcely any conflict at all arose when one of the members claimed, in all earnestness, that Dittersdorf was among the greats.

Odd that you and some other big Wagner fans don't see the interest in discussing Wagner and evaluating his musical and theatrical achievements as an indicator of the high esteem for him around these parts.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on February 22, 2011, 01:23:03 PM
Quote from: Mensch on February 22, 2011, 01:12:47 PM
Your point was that supposedly the more popular operas, not by Wagner, have:

That's of course a subjective point. But taking that into account, you can't necessarily say that the top 20 are the best in those regards. Turandot, Magic Flute, Fledermaus, Trovatore, to name but a few, have rather silly stories. And again, popularity has nothing to do with quality. Otherwise we should all subject ourselves to the implied superiority of Michael Jackson and Britney Spears.
How strange that you either lose or pretend to lose the ability to read when you feel like attacking one of my posts.  Look at the damned sentence again:
Quote from: Sherman Peabody on February 22, 2011, 11:17:56 AM

Couldn't it be that there are just far more operas that offer more dramatically convincing story and more musically satisfying song of the sort that appeal to most audiences?
I feel certain that if you were as interested in understanding what I say as you are in attacking what I don't say then you would have no trouble with this simple concept.  Whether you or I or Alberich or Jens finds X dramatically convincing hardly addresses the question of what most US audiences find dramatically convincing.  I, for instance, regard LOTR as a noteworthy literary achievement--but I know many people who disparage it (without reading it) for being fantasy fiction about wizards and elves and other imaginary creatures.  They're simply not interested in such stuff and don't imagine that they could relate to it.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on February 22, 2011, 01:27:10 PM
Quote from: Alberich on February 22, 2011, 11:00:07 AM
I find kind of outrageous how top 20 most frequently performed operas in North America don't include single one from Wagner.

Let's start over.  Who, exactly, are you outraged at?  Audiences who go to opera who don't like Wagner, potential audiences who like Wagner but don't go to the opera, opera company music directors who program operas that audiences pay tickets to see (in sufficient numbers to pay for the production) or Wagner for not writing better operas?   Sounds like you are outraged at the universe in general for conforming to your idea of what it should be like.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 22, 2011, 01:30:31 PM
Quote from: Sherman Peabody on February 22, 2011, 01:23:03 PM
How strange that you either lose or pretend to lose the ability to read when you feel like attacking one of my posts.  Look at the damned sentence again: I feel certain that if you were as interested in understanding what I say as you are in attacking what I don't say then you would have no trouble with this simple concept.  Whether you or I or Alberich or Jens finds X dramatically convincing hardly addresses the question of what most US audiences find dramatically convincing.  I, for instance, regard LOTR as a noteworthy literary achievement--but I know many people who disparage it (without reading it) for being fantasy fiction about wizards and elves and other imaginary creatures.  They're simply not interested in such stuff and don't imagine that they could relate to it.

In that case, your entire point is moot. Why are we discussing what we find interesting or what US audiences find interesting? What is your point? If you think that the US popular vote gives some measure of objectivity to your dislike of Wagner, you're flat out wrong.

BTW, as I mentioned above, frequency of performance has less to do with popularity per se, but more to do with the ease of producing a given opera on a limited budget. We are after all talking not just about the Met, the Lyric and the LA Opera, but lots of small opera houses in flyover country you've never heard of. They don't have the budgets or the musicians to stage difficult, long works, and can't pay the fees that the few major singers charge who can actually sing a Brünnhilde or Tristan. Same thing goes for a lot of Strauss operas, Janacek and others who don't make the list. I don't think Wagner is really underperformed at the Met or the other top international class opera houses in the US.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on February 22, 2011, 01:44:24 PM
The directors. Whether you love or hate Wagner, his influence is fact and thus Wagner IMO earns his place and it doesn't help either that top 20 list included die fledermaus which isn't even an opera but an operetta. Lousy metaphor coming in 3... 2... 1...:

Opera house without frequent Wagner performances is like western genre without Leone's westerns.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on February 22, 2011, 01:46:03 PM
Quote from: A.C. Douglas on February 18, 2011, 03:19:53 AM
I'm well aware of your dislike (dare I say, hatred) of my good self, but as you're a moderator here you really ought to exercise more caution and discretion when throwing about such nasty and insupportable charges publicly. As I informed your fellow moderator, Gurnatron5500, the infrequent times I pass through this forum and pause to engage in argument it's because of the appalling Wagner-ignorance of a number of your regular members. And it's not merely that they're Wagner-ignorant, but that they're arrogantly Wagner-ignorant and at least in the case of one of them, a crypto-Wagner-hater into the bargain. (You've another certified Wagner-ignorant Wagner-hater here to my knowledge, but so far he's contributed only a couple lame potshots to this thread during my time here.) Had you exercised due caution and discretion as a moderator you would have seen that the ugly insults began NOT with me, but with one of your regular members (well, actually two of your regular members, but the other one didn't mention me by name although the wording of his very ugly insult made it perfectly clear to just about everyone to whom he was referring). I merely responded in kind and with admirable restraint as I've already noted in my exchange with Gurnatron5500.

All the above notwithstanding, you've nothing further to fear from my presence here. As I've already noted, I'm just passing through and have no intention whatsoever of hanging out. Believe what you will but I've little appetite for this sort of argument and little time for it, and so will retire from active participation in this series of arguments as it's clear my input is neither appreciated nor wanted here.

Just one last closing remark: You really ought to consult a psychiatric dictionary and look up the term "passive[-]aggressive" before using it again. You really ought to, you know.

ACD

I saw no 'nasty and insupportable charges'. I just call it as I find it when, as moderator, someone strolls in and insults the regular members here. As to 'hate'.....you really do think a lot of yourself, contempt for your on-line character certainly, if not your evident knowledge. But you seem to ascribe to the old claim that the only medicine that works is that which is to at least an extent, revolting and you apply the medicine by the ladle.

Try to divide your Wagner comment from your personal comment. As to passive/aggressive...well, as usual you start that way, then once rattled to discover that people are happy to explain that you cause them dyspepsia, you just come right out with the aggression.

Anyway, your work is done, your task is over. Back over the rainbow time I think.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on February 22, 2011, 01:47:42 PM
Quote from: Alberich on February 22, 2011, 01:44:24 PM
The directors. Whether you love or hate Wagner, his influence is fact and thus Wagner IMO earns his place and it doesn't help either that top 20 list included die fledermaus which isn't even an opera but an operetta. Lousy metaphor coming in 3... 2... 1...:

Opera house without frequent Wagner performances is like western genre without Leone's westerns.

Well, the directors primary charge is to keep the house from going bankrupt.  I'm sure many of them would love to have lots of Wagner, and have sleepless nights worrying about how to program more Wagner and still find adequate performers and fill seats in order to pay for it. 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Walther von Stolzing on February 22, 2011, 01:52:18 PM
Quote from: Alberich on February 22, 2011, 01:44:24 PM
The directors. Whether you love or hate Wagner, his influence is fact and thus Wagner IMO earns his place and it doesn't help either that top 20 list included die fledermaus which isn't even an opera but an operetta. Lousy metaphor coming in 3... 2... 1...:

Opera house without frequent Wagner performances is like western genre without Leone's westerns.

Unfortunately your idealism doesn't correspond with the economics of most opera houses, or with their lack of ability to even stage Wagner, as Mensch points out. The directors can only do so much with what they're given.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on February 22, 2011, 01:53:44 PM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on February 22, 2011, 01:47:42 PM
Well, the directors primary charge is to keep the house from going bankrupt.  I'm sure many of them would love to have lots of Wagner, and have sleepless nights worrying about how to program more Wagner and still find adequate performers and fill seats in order to pay for it.

Heck, Wagner nearly bankrupted the LA Opera. And the National Opera (Washington) couldn't afford to stage Goetterdaemmerung or put on the (thus unfinished) entire Ring in one year.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: AndyD. on February 22, 2011, 01:54:32 PM
Quote from: A.C. Douglas on February 17, 2011, 12:23:27 PM
a crypto-Wagner-hater

Crypto, even. Love it.


Quote from: A.C. Douglas on February 17, 2011, 12:23:27 PM

will retire from active participation in this series of arguments as it's clear my input is neither appreciated nor wanted here.


Heaven forbid!

Quote from: A.C. Douglas on February 17, 2011, 12:23:27 PM
As to my alleged (by you) "glorification of [Wagner] by trying to attribute some sort of superhuman genius to him in other spheres beyond the musical," don't be preposterous. I never engage in such idiocy and nothing I've ever written about Wagner and his works, here or elsewhere, has ever attempted anything even approaching "glorification" of the man or the music-dramatist. I leave that sort of thing to the noxious race of Wagnerites among which I'm not numbered....


Aye.



Where have I been?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on February 22, 2011, 01:56:02 PM
Fledermaus is a masterpiece, the music is superb.

It has spoken dialogue in it, as does Fidelio. It has lively music in it, as does The Barber of Seville. That Bruderline ensemble reminds me of the reconcilliation ensemble at the end of Mozart's Figaro.

It is worthy of inclusion in any top ranking.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 22, 2011, 01:57:50 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 22, 2011, 01:53:44 PM
Heck, Wagner nearly bankrupted the LA Opera. And the National Opera (Washington) couldn't afford to stage Goetterdaemmerung or put on the (thus unfinished) entire Ring in one year.

Which gets us back to the issue of productions: these days the only way to really do it and not lose money in the process is either a) spend all your money on good singers so that they are the big box office draw, and use just a very sparse minimalist staging that costs little money; or b) make a visual spectacular (a la La Fura dels Baus), so that the extra musical action is the big draw. The latter is a much bigger financial gamble. But just making traditional stagings with meticluously detailed realistic romantic stagings *and* pay for expensive singers just isn't going to work.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on February 22, 2011, 02:01:02 PM
I wonder to what extent those productions that are produced in DVD recoup the outlay?

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: AndyD. on February 22, 2011, 02:05:28 PM
Quote from: knight66 on February 22, 2011, 02:01:02 PM
I wonder to what extent those productions that are produced in DVD recoup the outlay?

Mike

It might be telling that even the dvds that could greatly benefit from being reissued/remastered, like the Levine, haven't. Unless the original, source tapes are really bad.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on February 22, 2011, 02:09:47 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 22, 2011, 01:07:58 PM
I think it fairly obvious, in the first place, that Wagner's operas demand professional production.  Wherever you have smaller-budget companies, and summer stock opera, in North America, you'll find that their repertory is dominated by the titles in this list.[/font]
To support your point, and Mensch's, in the repertory report in the Met database, 5 of the 20 most performed operas are by Wagner: http://archives.metoperafamily.org/archives/frame.htm
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on February 22, 2011, 02:12:16 PM
Quote from: Alberich on February 22, 2011, 01:44:24 PM
Opera house without frequent Wagner performances is like western genre without Leone's westerns.
:o  Leone's "Westerns" don't really qualify--thus the specific genre "Spaghetti Western" was devised to describe them.  Hmmm...maybe not so far off after all, since Wagner's "music dramas" aren't really operas.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Luke, honestly! on February 22, 2011, 04:16:31 PM
Are they Spaghetti Opera, then? I like the sound of that... Sauerkraut Opera, perhaps.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 22, 2011, 04:24:15 PM
Quote from: Luke, honestly! on February 22, 2011, 04:16:31 PM
Are they Spaghetti Opera, then?

Only when Giuditta Pasta sung them.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 22, 2011, 07:41:51 PM
Quote from: Luke, honestly! on February 22, 2011, 04:16:31 PM
Are they Spaghetti Opera, then? I like the sound of that...

Il Shrine-in-makeover....


Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Florestan on February 23, 2011, 01:44:31 AM
Quote from: knight66 on February 22, 2011, 01:56:02 PM
Fledermaus is a masterpiece, the music is superb.

It has spoken dialogue in it, as does Fidelio. It has lively music in it, as does The Barber of Seville.

It is worthy of inclusion in any top ranking.

Yes.

Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on February 22, 2011, 04:24:15 PM
Only when Giuditta Pasta sung them.

Excellent one!  :D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on February 23, 2011, 01:56:40 AM
Quote from: Sherman Peabody on February 22, 2011, 02:12:16 PM
:o  Leone's "Westerns" don't really qualify--thus the specific genre "Spaghetti Western" was devised to describe them.  Hmmm...maybe not so far off after all, since Wagner's "music dramas" aren't really operas.

OT: Tomato tomato, subgenre. And even John Wayne can't stand the icy look of Lee van Cleef, Clint Eastwood, Eli wallach or Gian Maria Volonté... or Henry Fonda (yay, maybe his only villain role!). To me, foreing westerns by Leone are ironically the best ones (not saying american westerns are bad).

Now, back to the topic before I'm gonna get tarred and feathered.

I haven't read all 72 pages, so not sure if this has been asked: What would you say is Wagner's worst opera? You can count die feen, das Liebesverbot, Rienzi and heck, even three surviving pieces from die Hochzeit if you want. From his more mature operas I would probably pick Lohengrin, mainly because I find it's libretto somewhat weaker than with others, plus I kind of dislike Lohengrin and Elsa... on the other hand Telramund and Ortrud (especially Ortrud) are so fascinating that they kind of overshadow them. That been said, I still love Lohengrin, most of it's libretto and magnificent music. And the first scene of act 2 is so close to ideal music drama that it could easily be part of Tristan.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 23, 2011, 04:14:51 AM
Quote from: Alberich on February 23, 2011, 01:56:40 AM
I haven't read all 72 pages, so not sure if this has been asked: What would you say is Wagner's worst opera? You can count die feen, das Liebesverbot, Rienzi and heck, even three surviving pieces from die Hochzeit if you want. From his more mature operas I would probably pick Lohengrin, mainly because I find it's libretto somewhat weaker than with others, plus I kind of dislike Lohengrin and Elsa... on the other hand Telramund and Ortrud (especially Ortrud) are so fascinating that they kind of overshadow them. That been said, I still love Lohengrin, most of it's libretto and magnificent music. And the first scene of act 2 is so close to ideal music drama that it could easily be part of Tristan.

I remember reading a long time ago that Wagner referred to "Tannhäuser" as "meine schlechteste Oper." I would agree, except for "Rienzi." But hardly anybody pays that one any attention outside of the overture.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on February 23, 2011, 05:41:18 AM
I have also read that Wagner was never quite satisfied with Tannhäuser and how he felt he still "owed" Tannhäuser to the world. Rienzi's prayer in act 5 scene 1 is really worth of listening: overture uses some musical material from that scene (or vice versa) and it's really beautiful.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 23, 2011, 06:47:52 AM
Quote from: Alberich on February 23, 2011, 01:56:40 AM
From his more mature operas I would probably pick Lohengrin, mainly because I find it's libretto somewhat weaker than with others, plus I kind of dislike Lohengrin and Elsa... on the other hand Telramund and Ortrud (especially Ortrud) are so fascinating that they kind of overshadow them. That been said, I still love Lohengrin, most of it's libretto and magnificent music. And the first scene of act 2 is so close to ideal music drama that it could easily be part of Tristan.

Ooooh, come on! Lohengrin is the best. No "longueurs", just taut drama beginning to end. Lohengrin and Elsa as characters are no weaker than any of his other heroic tragic couples: Siegmund/Sieglinde, Siegfried/Brünnhilde, Tristan/Isolde. All of his lead couples are to an extent less characterized than some of their antagonists or other charcaters, because the real emotional and psychological drama is often not with the lead characters but with characters like Telramund and Ortrud or Wotan etc. etc.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 23, 2011, 06:48:49 AM
Quote from: Sherman Peabody on February 22, 2011, 02:09:47 PM
To support your point, and Mensch's, in the repertory report in the Met database, 5 of the 20 most performed operas are by Wagner: http://archives.metoperafamily.org/archives/frame.htm

Thanks! That's the one I meant. Goes to show that putting on Wagner is often simply a matter of funds and availability of top singers.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Bill H. on February 23, 2011, 06:49:34 AM
Quote from: Mensch on February 22, 2011, 01:57:50 PM
Which gets us back to the issue of productions: these days the only way to really do it and not lose money in the process is either a) spend all your money on good singers so that they are the big box office draw, and use just a very sparse minimalist staging that costs little money; or b) make a visual spectacular (a la La Fura dels Baus), so that the extra musical action is the big draw. The latter is a much bigger financial gamble. But just making traditional stagings with meticluously detailed realistic romantic stagings *and* pay for expensive singers just isn't going to work.

How about "concert" performances?  The most well-marketed recent one that comes to mind is the Elder/Halle Gotterdammerung.  Probably was a sell-out for the performances that were done, but I wonder if they are making back their investment on sales of the recording (not sure if a DVD was issued).   And I thought there was a Walkure in the works as well.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on February 23, 2011, 07:47:35 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on February 23, 2011, 04:14:51 AM
I remember reading a long time ago that Wagner referred to "Tannhäuser" as "meine schlechteste Oper." I would agree, except for "Rienzi." But hardly anybody pays that one any attention outside of the overture.

After Rheingold, Tannhauser is my favorite of Dickie's creations.   ???  I've never heard Lohengrin, Dutchman, or Rienzi.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: AndyD. on February 23, 2011, 07:54:35 AM
Quote from: Alberich on February 23, 2011, 01:56:40 AM


I haven't read all 72 pages, so not sure if this has been asked: What would you say is Wagner's worst opera? From his more mature operas I would probably pick Lohengrin, I kind of dislike Lohengrin and Elsa... on the other hand Telramund and Ortrud (especially Ortrud) are so fascinating that they kind of overshadow them. That been said, I still love Lohengrin, most of it's libretto and magnificent music. And the first scene of act 2 is so close to ideal music drama that it could easily be part of Tristan.

I agree with most of this. I love Lohengrin both for its gorgeous prelude to Act 1, and the entire second act is absolutely awe-inspiring to me. I rarely watch the rest of it. As for it being his worse mature, etc., that's a really hard thing for me to contemplate, as every opera I've heard from him has transcendant moments, at least for me. I haven't heard Die Feen or Das Liebesverbot. Just everything from Rienzi.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on February 23, 2011, 08:03:18 AM
Quote from: Mensch on February 23, 2011, 06:47:52 AM
. . . No "longueurs", just taut drama beginning to end.

Maybe Wagnerians don't go for that sort of thing.

(* ducks on way out *)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 23, 2011, 08:07:37 AM
Quote from: Bill H. on February 23, 2011, 06:49:34 AM
How about "concert" performances?  The most well-marketed recent one that comes to mind is the Elder/Halle Gotterdammerung.  Probably was a sell-out for the performances that were done, but I wonder if they are making back their investment on sales of the recording (not sure if a DVD was issued).   And I thought there was a Walkure in the works as well.

Classical recordings don't really make money these days. Depending on what contract you have with the musicians, they ususally barely break even. Some in-house labels, I'm told, don't pay anything to their musicians until sales recoup the production costs, and few discs do that. But that sort of thing can't be done with the contracts major US orchestras have, which still have royalties clauses dating from the 60s. I don't think it's much different from DVDs. But primarily, recordings serve as calling cards and PR for the performers. Unless they become bestsellers, they don't really make money these days. Consider that most discs sell in the mid four-digit quantities at a retail price of around $17 and you can calculate after the retailer's and distributor's cut and production costs that there is little left for the performers.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: AndyD. on February 23, 2011, 08:07:55 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 23, 2011, 08:03:18 AM
Maybe Wagnerians don't go for that sort of thing.

(* ducks on way out *)



;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on February 23, 2011, 08:29:07 AM
Quote from: Mensch on February 23, 2011, 06:47:52 AM
Ooooh, come on! Lohengrin is the best. No "longueurs", just taut drama beginning to end. Lohengrin and Elsa as characters are no weaker than any of his other heroic tragic couples: Siegmund/Sieglinde, Siegfried/Brünnhilde, Tristan/Isolde. All of his lead couples are to an extent less characterized than some of their antagonists or other charcaters, because the real emotional and psychological drama is often not with the lead characters but with characters like Telramund and Ortrud or Wotan etc. etc.

I don't deny it:Lohengrin is a great work. To tell you the truth, sometimes my least favorite mature wagner opera switches between Tannhäuser and fliegende Holländer (from his early operas I think das Liebesverbot is weakest, even though french grand opera-like Rienzi is even further from music drama) but I still love them all. Maybe because Elsa is somewhat too passive. Senta, Eva and Elizabeth are also, but Lohengrin seems kind of "superman". True, other young males, especially Siegfried and Parsifal are also portrayed kind of that way, but Siegfried is eventually killed and Parsifal is kind of Chuck Norris who can beat all the fallen knights in Klingsor's garden and even the freaking spear refuses to hit him... but he is still so naively humane, even after Kundry's kiss. Although naturally even Lohengrin is not invincible. With Siegmund/Sieglinde I kind of agree, because Siegmund is my least favorite Ring character (even Brünnhilde annoys me in Götterdämmerung at some points). And now don't misunderstand me: Character of Lohengrin has his humane moments also, (plus I can't deny I love characters who just kicks everybody's ass) actually I wouldn't say he is not humane: just less humane than some others (and it still kind of annoys me Telramund din't manage to kick his ass while he was making out with Elsa ;D). And almost everytime Lohengrin sings "in fernem Land"-monologue, I am crying manly tears.

I guess by "lead characters" you meant only couples because I still see Wotan as the lead character of the Ring, even though he is absent in Götterdämmerung... Although you may have different opinion ;)

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 23, 2011, 08:03:18 AM
Maybe Wagnerians don't go for that sort of thing.

(* ducks on way out *)


I appreciate both quickly and slowly advancing drama. :P
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 23, 2011, 02:21:27 PM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on February 23, 2011, 07:47:35 AM
After Rheingold, Tannhauser is my favorite of Dickie's creations.   ???  I've never heard Lohengrin, Dutchman, or Rienzi.

Interesting. Actually I don't even have a recording of Tannhäuser (recs, anyone?) Of the "early three" still in the standard repertoire, I most favor Holländer, despite its obvious unevenness in style. On my drives to and from work today I had the second act of Götterdämmerung playing, and for sheer tautness and intensity of drama, I can't think of anything in Wagner to compare.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on February 23, 2011, 02:29:49 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on February 23, 2011, 02:21:27 PM
Interesting. Actually I don't even have a recording of Tannhäuser (recs, anyone?) Of the "early three" still in the standard repertoire, I most favor Holländer, despite its obvious unevenness in style. On my drives to and from work today I had the second act of Götterdämmerung playing, and for sheer tautness and intensity of drama, I can't think of anything in Wagner to compare.

I don't have an audio recording either.  I have two DVDs, both of which I like.

[asin]B001A5REB2[/asin]

[asin]B000EQHHK6[/asin]
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 23, 2011, 06:06:48 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on February 23, 2011, 02:21:27 PM
Actually I don't even have a recording of Tannhäuser (recs, anyone?)

This one is quite good.

[asin]B00005UW19[/asin]
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 23, 2011, 06:11:12 PM
Quote from: Mensch on February 23, 2011, 06:06:48 PM
This one is quite good.

[asin]B00005UW19[/asin]

Thanks. I've heard good things about that one, and I'd rather have a CD.

BTW, thanks also for the Harnoncourt Bruckner 9. I'm always skeptical towards H based on some of the fussy mannerisms he tends to fall into, but there was nothing like that in this direct and powerful 9th. And the lecture was most educational.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on February 24, 2011, 12:58:21 AM
Quote from: Mensch on February 23, 2011, 06:06:48 PM
This one is quite good.

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005UW19.01.L.jpg)
R. Wagner (1813 – 1883)
Tannhäuser
Barenboim / Staatskapelle Berlin
Eaglen, Meier, Seifert, Pape, Hampson et al.
Telarc
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005UW19/goodmusicguide-20)

It's terrific!!! And it's my favorite version: Dresden-Paris Hybrid.
Like the rival Sinopoli recording (DG, Paris Version, 1989), it benefits from state-of-the-art sound quality and a stupendous cast. The female leads Jeane Eaglen and Waltraut Meier might be the best on record (as far as modern recordings are concerned--and you don't have to watch Eaglen, another benefit.) and Peter Seifert, Rene Pape and Thomas Hampson don't need to shy away from any competition, either. Like Cosima I prefer the Dresden version without the excessive Venusberg-mystery-music - and Barenboim's subtle amalgamation seems to combine the best of both worlds.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Walther von Stolzing on February 24, 2011, 09:35:10 AM
Of his mature works, my least favorite is probably Tannhauser. Mostly because outside of the Venus bacchanal, and a few other moments here and there, I find much of the music of act 1 to be rather uninteresting. Der fliegende Hollander, while very much a transitional work, still for me has great tunes throughout and is more cohesive thematically. Lohengrin pretty much blows both out of the water IMO, and is the culmination of everything he was attempting to do in those two operas.

Still, Tannhauser is very very good. My favorite recording of it is the Solti. I know the Sinopoli has it's supporters as well, for good reason, but I've never found Domingo to be all that convincing with his characterizations in the Wagnerian roles I've heard him in.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: mjwal on February 25, 2011, 05:38:23 AM
Quote from: Alberich on February 23, 2011, 08:29:07 AM
I don't deny it:Lohengrin is a great work. To tell you the truth, sometimes my least favorite mature wagner opera switches between Tannhäuser and fliegende Holländer (from his early operas I think das Liebesverbot is weakest, even though french grand opera-like Rienzi is even further from music drama) but I still love them all. Maybe because Elsa is somewhat too passive. Senta, Eva and Elizabeth are also, but Lohengrin seems kind of "superman". True, other young males, especially Siegfried and Parsifal are also portrayed kind of that way, but Siegfried is eventually killed and Parsifal is kind of Chuck Norris who can beat all the fallen knights in Klingsor's garden and even the freaking spear refuses to hit him... but he is still so naively humane, even after Kundry's kiss. Although naturally even Lohengrin is not invincible. With Siegmund/Sieglinde I kind of agree, because Siegmund is my least favorite Ring character (even Brünnhilde annoys me in Götterdämmerung at some points). And now don't misunderstand me: Character of Lohengrin has his humane moments also, (plus I can't deny I love characters who just kicks everybody's ass) actually I wouldn't say he is not humane: just less humane than some others (and it still kind of annoys me Telramund din't manage to kick his ass while he was making out with Elsa ;D). And almost everytime Lohengrin sings "in fernem Land"-monologue, I am crying manly tears.

I guess by "lead characters" you meant only couples because I still see Wotan as the lead character of the Ring, even though he is absent in Götterdämmerung... Although you may have different opinion ;)

I appreciate both quickly and slowly advancing drama. :P
I can sort of empathise with some of what you are saying, but I find it very odd that Siegmund is your least favourite character, considering that he is not a superman but a gentleman who puts Sieglinde first to the extent that he willingly renounces eternal life in Valhalla (Brünnhilde can hardly believe her ears): this strikes me as the noblest gesture of any figure in the whole cycle ("Discuss, providing evidence for your opinion"...  ;)) He also has some of the most wonderful vocal passages e.g. "Zauberfest" etc. - As to Lohengrin: if he is a superman then only one who, like Superman himself, is subject to a crippling twist of fate (the continual threat by Kryptonite - rock that is at the origin of his own existence - in Superman's case) - he cannot freely choose Elsa but is bound to to a rule ("Nie sollst du mich befragen..."), which makes him a tragic hero at the end - at least apparently so, because in fact the law of the Wagnerian artist is to shun those who would involve him/her in the trammels of social existence (making money, marriage, kids) for the sake of his art; and Lohengrin must in fact have known in advance that Elsa would ask him after hearing the prohibition - he was after all the son of Parsifal, who knew all about feminine wiles and managed to escape both his mother and Kundry. That Lohengrin is a tricky so-and-so - it is no accident that his name is so close to Loge ("wabernde Lohe"), the ur-trickster. (Yes, I know his name is a corruption of Garin le Loherain, Garin of Lorraine, rather a bloodthirsty type, but Wagner didn't give a fig for correct etymologies). As for Elsa - for a passive girl she is pretty determined - making up a redemptive dream "on the spot", showing compassion to the woman who conspired against her, both holding on to her belief in a "Glück ohne Reu'" (happiness without regrets/repentance) and insisting on Lohengrin's full revelation of his identity. You might call her a "passive aggressive", but that makes her pretty interesting, no? All this makes Lohengrin's final farewell somewhat ambivalent in my book - if it is moving, then in the way that a declaration by a tricky SOB (who is his mother?) with paranoid tendencies might be moving. Or, the Swan-knight is a kind of Wagner-like magus-guru, come to liberate Elsa from the trammels of earthly illusion.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 25, 2011, 06:55:49 AM
Quote from: mjwal on February 25, 2011, 05:38:23 AM
As to Lohengrin: if he is a superman then only one who, like Superman himself, is subject to a crippling twist of fate (the continual threat by Kryptonite - rock that is at the origin of his own existence - in Superman's case) - he cannot freely choose Elsa but is bound to to a rule ("Nie sollst du mich befragen..."), which makes him a tragic hero at the end - at least apparently so, because in fact the law of the Wagnerian artist is to shun those who would involve him/her in the trammels of social existence (making money, marriage, kids) for the sake of his art; and Lohengrin must in fact have known in advance that Elsa would ask him after hearing the prohibition - he was after all the son of Parsifal, who knew all about feminine wiles and managed to escape both his mother and Kundry.

Very well put. In Barenboim's recording the way Peter Seiffert acts that "nie sollst du mich befragen" is hairraising, exactly because he gets what you describe here. When he repeats the command to Elsa after she all to eagerly accepted this ridiculous demand the first time around, he gives it an edge and intensity, as if he were really saying: "do you have even the slightest idea what you're getting yourself into, you fool?" It is so harsh, it almost carries within itself the anticipation of disappointment.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 25, 2011, 08:48:25 AM
Listening to this now, which arrived in the mail yesterday, thanks to Sarge's recommendation.

[asin]B001OBT3M0[/asin]

Stunning!  :o Never expected such great direction from Bychkov or such flawless playing from the WDR (including the on- and off-stage fanfares which are so often notoriously out of tune). I expected Botha to be terrific, having just seen him live here in Chicago in the same role. Pieczonka, Youn and Struckmann are all very positive surprises. Though I have to disagree with Sarge on Ortrud. I don't find Lang sufficiently seductive or evil. An amazon reviewer described her as "lightweight". I agree. She simply lacks edge. Also, this has got to be the one Lohengrin recording in which the entire cast has just stellar German diction (despite a Korean King Heinrich, a South African Lohengrin and a Canadian Elsa!), well maybe apart from the (German) Ortrud at times. Otherwise, you can practically toss the libretto.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on February 25, 2011, 09:10:33 AM
Quote from: mjwal on February 25, 2011, 05:38:23 AM...and Lohengrin must in fact have known in advance that Elsa would ask him after hearing the prohibition - he was after all the son of Parsifal, who knew all about feminine wiles and managed to escape both his mother and Kundry...

Evidently not enough to escape Lohengrin's mother, though. That family is flawed through and through. :-)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 25, 2011, 01:41:26 PM
Is anyone familiar with this Tristan?

[asin]B000QGDZCI[/asin]

There was an earlier Opera d'Oro issue (http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Tristan-Isolde-Richard-Classical/dp/B000GH3CIO/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1298673670&sr=1-2) of bootleg of another 1974 (or the same?) Bayreuth performance that was said to have atrocious sound. Wondering if this one is any better. I've heard great things about Ligendza's Isolde, not to mention Kleiber's conducting.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: mjwal on February 25, 2011, 02:56:16 PM
I remember hearing that Bayreuth Kleiber Tristan performance on the radio at the time - as I remember, it was Brilioth who fell short (compared with, say, Suthaus, especially in Furtwängler's 1947 performance). - To revert to Lohengrin - how does the Bychkov, which coincidentally I had wanted to ask about anyway, compare with the Barenboim for insight and performance? I read about the latter that Elsa's voice was not easily distinguishable from Ortrud's, which would bother me a bit, otherwise I might get it, as it is very cheap on amazon.de. My two references for this opera are: the 1942 recording with the Ortrud of Margarete Klose, who is the all-time world-beater in this role, and the '58 Cluytens with the superb Konya as Lohengrin. I would like a more recent recording with excellent orchestral transparency, but I do need an Elsa who is as heartfelt as Maria Müller in the 1942 recording, especially in the "es gibt ein Glück" passage, and sounds as different from Ortrud as she does from Klose. The greatest Elsa of all time has to have been Lotte Lehmann, to judge by the brief excerpt she recorded.
As to Lohengrin's mother, Jens - well, seemingly Parsifal did escape her, she doesn't appear at all in Wagner's Grail universe, not a mention much less an appearance (unlike in Wolfram's Parzifal). Not unless she was one of the flower-girls, who slipped him her number en passant in Act 2. But your point about the family is well-taken.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 26, 2011, 03:39:11 AM
Quote from: mjwal on February 25, 2011, 02:56:16 PM
As to Lohengrin's mother, Jens - well, seemingly Parsifal did escape her, she doesn't appear at all in Wagner's Grail universe, not a mention much less an appearance (unlike in Wolfram's Parzifal). Not unless she was one of the flower-girls, who slipped him her number en passant in Act 2.


And they say Wagnerians are a humorless bunch.  :D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on February 26, 2011, 07:15:05 AM
Quote from: mjwal on February 25, 2011, 05:38:23 AM
I can sort of empathise with some of what you are saying, but I find it very odd that Siegmund is your least favourite character, considering that he is not a superman but a gentleman who puts Sieglinde first to the extent that he willingly renounces eternal life in Valhalla (Brünnhilde can hardly believe her ears): this strikes me as the noblest gesture of any figure in the whole cycle

Yes, but I usually (not always) like more flawed characters. Not to say that Siegmund is completely flawless, unless almost killing Sieglinde in her sleep because he refuses to let anyone alse ever touch her purity, is considered noble act; and I am pretty sure some actually think so (as mercy kill so no one else will violate her rights if Siegmund falls in battle) and in 19th century literature that was like most romantic thing ever.

Wagnerians humorless bunch? Surely they jest! I have several wagner opera jokes (although mostly crappy ones).  8)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on February 26, 2011, 09:10:04 PM
Quote from: mjwal on February 25, 2011, 02:56:16 PM
To revert to Lohengrin - how does the Bychkov, which coincidentally I had wanted to ask about anyway, compare with the Barenboim for insight and performance? I read about the latter that Elsa's voice was not easily distinguishable from Ortrud's, which would bother me a bit, otherwise I might get it, as it is very cheap on amazon.de.

First off, I don't see how anyone could possibly confuse Polaski's and Magee's voices: one somewhat old-ish with a huge vibrato, the other angelic and youthful.

The choice between Barenboim and Bychkov is rather one of who you prefer in the roles of Elsa and Lohengrin and whose orchestral leadership you prefer. It's been a while since I listened to the Barenboim, but Barenboim of course has the richer orchestra and the warmer, more romantic reading. Bychkov's orchestra is amazingly superb, the best I have heard from the WDR. If transparency and dramatic tension is what you seek, he's your man. As to the lead roles, Seiffert for Barenboim is an assertive, masculine, heroic Lohengrin with terrific diction and a nice dramatic edge. His "Nie sollst du mich befragen" is really hair raising. But I'd have to say I think I prefer Johan Botha for Bychkov, who is a much more lyrical Lohengrin, with ample power and projection, no shortage of vocal reserves, stunning dynamic control, rock solid intonation, and the smoothest legato you'll ever hear. He's a human Lohengrin. You really buy that he's head over heels for Elsa, and the scenes with the two of them have an unsurpassed tenderness. Emily Magee for Barenboim is a superb angelic Elsa, pure of tone and naive in expression. But Pieczonka for Bychkov is no slouch either, and she has by far the better diction. Both Barenboim and Bychkov have the same Telramund in Falk Struckmann, so there is no meaningful distinction here. I find neither Barenboim's Deborah Polaski with her huge vibrato, nor Petra Lang for Bychkov with her smallish voice and lack of dramatic distinction entirely persuasive as Ortrud. When I saw Lohengrin live here in Chicago at the Lyric a two weeks ago with Johan Botha in the title role, the Ortrud was Michaela Schuster, who was just demonically manipulative. Really sent shivers down your spine. Neither of these two on the two recordings at hand are in that league. Rene Pape (Barenboim's King Henry) is a fine singer, but I find him not "profundo" enough for roles like this one. Kwanchul Youn for Bychkov is surprisingly better in that respect and his German sounds like that of a native speaker. So, between Barenboim and Bychkov, I think it's a matter of whether you prefer the more heroic Seiffert for the role or the more tenderly lyrical Botha (I'd go with the latter), and whether you prefer the richer color palette of Barenboim's Staatskapelle Berlin or the spacious transparency of Bychkov's WDR SO caught in the latest SACD sound. In the other respects they are more or less a tie. I do generally prefer Barenboim as a conductor, especially in Wagner. But Bychkov did really surprise me extremely positively on this one. And the incandescent Botha seals the deal here, I think, though Seiffert is a fine Lohengrin in his own right.

Both Barenboim and Bychkov feature the uncut grail narration.

Quote from: mjwal on February 25, 2011, 02:56:16 PM
My two references for this opera are: the 1942 recording with the Ortrud of Margarete Klose, who is the all-time world-beater in this role, and the '58 Cluytens with the superb Konya as Lohengrin.

I don't have any of Konya's Lohengrins, but I was told the one to have is the live recording with Lovro von Matacic conducting. Can anyone comment?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: mjwal on February 27, 2011, 05:05:40 AM
Thanks for the judicious comparisons, Mensch. - I didn't even know about the Matacic - it's '59 Bayreuth (whereas the Cluytens is from the year before, with Varnay as Ortrud). It certainly sounds recommendable, judging from Amazon, and Konya was certainly superb in '58.
Alberich, Siegmund does not "almost kill[ing] Sieglinde in her sleep": he impulsively says he would do so if he knew that he had to die, which he is however not yet convinced of. In the context of his society (prone to both exaggerated concepts of "honour" and sexual violence, as the text tells us) it was a noble reaction, and hardly tantamount to "almost killing" her.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Guido on February 27, 2011, 04:15:24 PM
Have we had discussions here of Tristan versions yet? I have the Karajan which I'm not actually a huge fan of (too violent!), and have just acquired the Kleiber/Margaret Price one which is gorgeous, but is let down a bit by the boys. How is the Bernstein one - similar in approach to Kleiber? How Bohm/Nilson Furtwangler/Flagstad etc.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on February 27, 2011, 09:20:36 PM
Quote from: mjwal on February 27, 2011, 05:05:40 AM
Alberich, Siegmund does not "almost kill[ing] Sieglinde in her sleep": he impulsively says he would do so if he knew that he had to die, which he is however not yet convinced of. In the context of his society (prone to both exaggerated concepts of "honour" and sexual violence, as the text tells us) it was a noble reaction, and hardly tantamount to "almost killing" her.

That was actually my point when I said from that point of view it is considered noble and kind of romantic. But I have to point out that die walküre's stage directions clearly say: "Er zückt das Schwert auf Sieglinde" when he says:

Zwei Leben
lachen dir hier:
nimm sie, Notung,
neidischer Stahl!
Nimm sie mit einem Streich!

of course it could be figurative speech but then brünnhilde quickly tells him to stop "im heftigsten Sturme".

Quote from: Guido. on February 27, 2011, 04:15:24 PM
and have just acquired the Kleiber/Margaret Price one which is gorgeous, but is let down a bit by the boys.

Oh, come on! Kollo, Fischer-Dieskau, Moll and Werner Gotz overshadow women by long shot (although considering there are only 2 woman roles, it shouldn't be surprising, even if roles in question are Isolde and Brangäne.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Guido on February 28, 2011, 02:43:50 AM
I mainly meant Kollo... Doesn't convice me.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ccar on February 28, 2011, 02:05:16 PM
Quote from: Mensch on February 25, 2011, 01:41:26 PM
Is anyone familiar with this Tristan?

[asin]B000QGDZCI[/asin]

There was an earlier Opera d'Oro issue (http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Tristan-Isolde-Richard-Classical/dp/B000GH3CIO/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1298673670&sr=1-2) of bootleg of another 1974 (or the same?) Bayreuth performance that was said to have atrocious sound. Wondering if this one is any better. I've heard great things about Ligendza's Isolde, not to mention Kleiber's conducting.


There are at least 7 available recordings of Tristan conducted by Carlos Kleiber – the "official" 1982 DG version and 6 live performances - Stuttgart 1973, Vienna 1973, Bayreuth 1974, 1975, 1976 and La Scala 1978.

For me, the Bayreuth and the La Scala performances, all with Caterina Ligendza, are much more involving than the studio version - Kleiber is more incandescent, more inspired and spontaneous in the way he drives and accentuates every musical moment, bringing more dramatic intensity to the singing and to every scene. But from all the Tristan-Kleiber live versions, I am most impressed with the Bayreuth 1976, with Ligendza and Spas Wenkoff. The 1976 brodcast has probably the best live sound and is certainly one of the most riveting Tristan performances I know.

Then, not for the fainted hearts, there is the 1978 version at La Scala, also with Ligendza and Wenkoff  – the sound is not so good as in the 1976 broadcast but it's amazing how Kleiber was able to use the plasticity of the La Scala orchestra to bring even more urgency to the music and to the stage - I remember imagining the Tristan of a Toscanini when I first listened to this performance.

 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on March 01, 2011, 06:59:16 AM
Quote from: ccar on February 28, 2011, 02:05:16 PM

There are at least 7 available recordings of Tristan conducted by Carlos Kleiber – the "official" 1982 DG version and 6 live performances - Stuttgart 1973, Vienna 1973, Bayreuth 1974, 1975, 1976 and La Scala 1978.

For me, the Bayreuth and the La Scala performances, all with Caterina Ligendza, are much more involving than the studio version - Kleiber is more incandescent, more inspired and spontaneous in the way he drives and accentuates every musical moment, bringing more dramatic intensity to the singing and to every scene. But from all the Tristan-Kleiber live versions, I am most impressed with the Bayreuth 1976, with Ligendza and Spas Wenkoff. The 1976 brodcast has probably the best live sound and is certainly one of the most riveting Tristan performances I know.

Then, not for the fainted hearts, there is the 1978 version at La Scala, also with Ligendza and Wenkoff  – the sound is not so good as in the 1976 broadcast but it's amazing how Kleiber was able to use the plasticity of the La Scala orchestra to bring even more urgency to the music and to the stage - I remember imagining the Tristan of a Toscanini when I first listened to this performance.

Thanks for this, ccar. I have found the '73 Stuttgart and the '74 and '75 Bayreuth versions, but I can't find either the '76 Bayreuth, nor the '78 La Scala. Neither amazon nor arkivmusic has it.

This:

[asin]B000GH3CIO[/asin]

appears to be the same performance as the one I posted above, but without booklet and hence cheaper (and it comes with a review from Jens). I presume the sound quality is the same, since both are Opera d'Oro. Can someone confirm?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Guido on March 01, 2011, 10:23:29 AM
Quote from: ccar on February 28, 2011, 02:05:16 PM

There are at least 7 available recordings of Tristan conducted by Carlos Kleiber – the "official" 1982 DG version and 6 live performances - Stuttgart 1973, Vienna 1973, Bayreuth 1974, 1975, 1976 and La Scala 1978.

For me, the Bayreuth and the La Scala performances, all with Caterina Ligendza, are much more involving than the studio version - Kleiber is more incandescent, more inspired and spontaneous in the way he drives and accentuates every musical moment, bringing more dramatic intensity to the singing and to every scene. But from all the Tristan-Kleiber live versions, I am most impressed with the Bayreuth 1976, with Ligendza and Spas Wenkoff. The 1976 brodcast has probably the best live sound and is certainly one of the most riveting Tristan performances I know.

Then, not for the fainted hearts, there is the 1978 version at La Scala, also with Ligendza and Wenkoff  – the sound is not so good as in the 1976 broadcast but it's amazing how Kleiber was able to use the plasticity of the La Scala orchestra to bring even more urgency to the music and to the stage - I remember imagining the Tristan of a Toscanini when I first listened to this performance.



Cheers!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on March 18, 2011, 03:09:02 AM
Quote from: James on March 16, 2011, 03:04:44 AM
DER RING DES NIBELUNGENr
Nothing in Wagner's output prefigures the sheer scale of Der Ring des Nibelungen, and indeed it was not initially envisaged on anything like the scale it ultimately attained. In 1848 Wagner began searching for a subject that could express the political fervour engendered by the Europe-wide uprisings of that year. He wanted a theme that would possess the power of ancient Greek theatre, with its emphasis on myth and communal experience, and he found it in the Norse-Germanic myth of the hero Siegfried, through whom and old, corrupt world was destroyed and replaced by one of hope.

Soon he had sketched the libretto for an opera called Siegfrieds Tod (Siegfried's Death), but the realized he needed to elaborate upon the events that led up to the hero's demis, and thus wrote a "prequel" called Der junge Siegfried (The Young Siegfried). Even that was not enough, so he drafted a scenario that added two more dramas, Das Rheingold (The Rhinehold) and Die Walkure (The Valkyries). Having written the libretti for the four dramas in reverse order he began composing the music in sequence, beginning with Rhinegold, the shortest part of the cycle, described merely as a prelude to the main drama (though it's longer than many full-length operas). Having completed Walkure and much Siegfried (formly Der junge Siegfried), in 1857 he broke off composition of The Ring to write Tristan and Die Meistersinger. Resuming Siegfried in 1865, he then composed the gargantuan finale, Gotterdammerung (Twilight of the Gods), as Siegfrieds Tod had now become. From a single opera, his project had grown to a length of some fifteen hours, spread over four evenings.

Obviously enough, the plot is impossible to convey in a few sentences, though one wit summarized it as a moral tale about what happens when a god defaults on the repayments on his house. This might well sum up Das Rheingold, in which the ruler of the gods, Wotan, tricks a power-wielding ring from the Nibelung dwart Alberich (who in turn has stolen gold from the Rhinemaidens), then is obliged to use it to pay the giants Fafner and Fasolt for building his fortress, Valhalla. In a nutshell, the rest of the cycle depicts the attempts of both Woltan and Alberich to retrieve the ring from Fafner (who guards it in the form of a dragon) by fathering offspring to do the deed for them, with Brunnhilde (his betrothed, and Wotan's daughter), foils Alberich's son Hagen's plan to gain the ring, which returned to the Rhinemaidens as the old world is cleansed by fire and water.

In outline The Ring sounds a bit like a "Sword and Sorcery" fantasy yarn, but's in fact a drama so complex that it can bear - and has borne - scores of different interpretations. At Bayreuth where they don't take kindly to frivolous cleverness, it has been presented both as a ritualistic exploration of such eternal verities as Love and Death, and as a quasi-Marxist study in power relations. The musical structure of The Ring is even more rich than its text, and includes some of the most powerful scenes in all opera: the very opening, for example, which conjures up the Rhine in a single, extended and elaborated chord; or the entry of the gods into Valhalla at the end Rheingold; or the Ride of the Valkyries and Magic Fire Music in the third act of Die Walkure; or Siegfried's "Funeral March" from Gotterdammerung. But these are just moments of extreme intensity in an epic that is highly charged from start to finish. Take the plunge - this is one of the great musical journeys.

[asin]B003Y3MYYU[/asin]
Karl Bohm's Ring, recorded live at Bayreuth between 1966 and 1967, is the most viscerally exciting, with an outstanding cast and vital sound. Some find Bohm's conducting too calculating, but few performances carry such a weight of personality. Some of the casting overlaps with the Solti set below, but this recording captures these remarkable voices in richer, more theatrical form.

[asin]B004FLKV5O[/asin]
This Ring, recorded live at Bayreuth in 1993, is the most rewarding since Bohm's. The carefully prepared voices, sublime orchestral sonorities and clear, naturally balanced sound world satisfy the most pedantic score-follower, but the spirit of Wagner's gothic imagination is also present throughout, with some remarkably percipient and  imaginative conducting. All four operas are available separately.

[asin]B0000042H4[/asin]
The first studio Ring is for many the finest: the sumptuous orchestral presence, the superb singing, the sound quality and the special effects (eighteen anvils for Rheingold) have never been bettered. It falls slightly short of the Bohm set, because incident rather than structure seems to be the main preoccupation, but there is no more impressive sounding Ring on record.

Excellent post James  :)!

  It is unbelievable how Wagner's plans to compose just one music drama with the character of Siegfried in mind has escalated to a 4 music drama extravaganza.  Notwithstanding the title of the 3rd music drama in this tetralogy, I find that Wagner's  principal character of interest (ie Siegfried) has in many ways been superseded by Wotan who takes center stage and emerges as the Ring's protagonist and Brunhilde who I believe is the true hero of the Ring.  Whether Wagner intended for this to happen I do not know but I can't help but feel that the end result (ie the Ring Cycle) has betrayed the intention (ie Siegfried's Tod).  That said, I am grateful that we have this great epic adventure to enjoy  :).

 
  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 18, 2011, 04:13:59 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on March 18, 2011, 03:09:02 AM
Excellent post James  :) !


Seconded.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Guido on March 18, 2011, 05:52:55 AM
What are these posts James? Are you writing a book?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on March 18, 2011, 07:00:58 AM
Sorry, mildly OT, this pic at the top of this NYT article today on contemporary Japanese art:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/18/arts/design/anxiety-on-the-fault-line.html?_r=1

It's Manabu Ikeda's "Existence" (2004), which represents the world as a giant, decomposing tree. If there ever was a better representation of the "Weltesche" I have yet to see it.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on March 18, 2011, 07:13:11 AM
Quote from: MishaK on March 18, 2011, 07:00:58 AM
Sorry, mildly OT, this pic at the top of this NYT article today on contemporary Japanese art:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/18/arts/design/anxiety-on-the-fault-line.html?_r=1

It's Manabu Ikeda's "Existence" (2004), which represents the world as a giant, decomposing tree. If there ever was a better representation of the "Weltesche" I have yet to see it.

  The World Ash Tree indeed. I wonder how many spear carrying one-eyed Japanese gods there are  ;)...........

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brahmsian on March 19, 2011, 03:46:23 PM
Quote from: James on March 19, 2011, 01:49:39 PM
Have been listening to Levine's studio production of the cycle a lot lately ..

(http://img.amazon.ca/images/I/51ARBP4NECL._SS500_.jpg)

I have this set, and had bought it 3 years ago for $49 CDN, which I thought was a really good deal at the time.  It's now going for $17.99 at Amazon Canada.  :o

Wonderful set, the only drawback is it doesn't include the libretto.  No big deal, as I have a large soft cover book of the libretto at a used book store.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on March 22, 2011, 02:08:32 AM
Quote from: James on March 19, 2011, 01:49:39 PM
Have been listening to Levine's studio production of the cycle a lot lately ..

(http://img.amazon.ca/images/I/51ARBP4NECL._SS500_.jpg)

  James if you like this recording so much I would check out the DVD version of that cycle.  Recorded at the MET in the early 90s it is the only traditional (true to Wagner's intention) production of the complete Ring on the market:

  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Cq1NO8ZtL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brahmsian on March 22, 2011, 07:08:51 AM
Just finished watching this fantastic modern production of Die Walkure, from The Copenhagen Ring.  Recommended.  I especially thought that Irene Theorin's performance of Brunnhilde compelling.

[asin]B0024396GU[/asin]
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Harry Powell on March 25, 2011, 04:05:31 PM
Quote from: ccar on February 28, 2011, 02:05:16 PM

There are at least 7 available recordings of Tristan conducted by Carlos Kleiber – the "official" 1982 DG version and 6 live performances - Stuttgart 1973, Vienna 1973, Bayreuth 1974, 1975, 1976 and La Scala 1978.

For me, the Bayreuth and the La Scala performances, all with Caterina Ligendza, are much more involving than the studio version - Kleiber is more incandescent, more inspired and spontaneous in the way he drives and accentuates every musical moment, bringing more dramatic intensity to the singing and to every scene. But from all the Tristan-Kleiber live versions, I am most impressed with the Bayreuth 1976, with Ligendza and Spas Wenkoff. The 1976 brodcast has probably the best live sound and is certainly one of the most riveting Tristan performances I know.

Then, not for the fainted hearts, there is the 1978 version at La Scala, also with Ligendza and Wenkoff  – the sound is not so good as in the 1976 broadcast but it's amazing how Kleiber was able to use the plasticity of the La Scala orchestra to bring even more urgency to the music and to the stage - I remember imagining the Tristan of a Toscanini when I first listened to this performance.



Excellent post. I remember that, in his private notebooks that were published by Bruno Monsaingeon, Sviatoslav Richter wrote: "I far that as long as I live I shall never heard another Tristan like this one. This was the real thing. Carlos Kleiber brought the music to boiling point and kept it there throughout the whole evening ... There's no doubt he's the greatest conductor of our day." (...) Richter says he went backstage to see Kleiber: "I told him what I thought and he suddenly leapt into the air with joy, like a child: 'Also, wirklich, gut?' [So it was really good?]. Such a titan, and so unsure of himself."

The variety of tones that Kleiber obtains from the orchestra is simply staggering. Infinite grading of tone that can be now harsh and piercing, then caressing and nuanced. The range of psicological moods thus created is astounding.

I remember very well Tristan's orchestral "introduction" to Isolde in Acto One (Fifth Scene): this is the portrait of an accursed heroe. Simply devastating.

The main singers are much less satisfying but to a certain extent well integrated in the performance. Ligendza had a light voice even for Eva and her technique was poor. The low tones were dull, the voice sounded as if full of air and she couldn't sing "in the mask" on the high notes. Apart from that, she didn't have a real pianissimo and her mezzavoce "frayed" because the support wasn't solid. She never matched the nuances in the orchestra. She had a clear diction and her recitation didn't lack a certain ferocity but one can perceive such vulgar resources as duplicated consonants and verista gasping.

Wenkoff had a robust voice and was good at declamatory passages but any legato singing exposed him. His delivery was hoarse and his pitch wasn't accurate.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bigshot on March 25, 2011, 08:50:21 PM
Isn't there a live South American recording og Tristan under Kleiber, or am I confused again?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Harry Powell on March 26, 2011, 11:23:46 AM
Hello bigshot
There's a "Tristan" from Buenos Aires conducted by Erich Kleiber. Flagstad sings incomparably and Svanholm's a compelling Tristan.
Greetings
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: AndyD. on March 27, 2011, 04:00:56 AM
Quote from: MishaK on March 01, 2011, 06:59:16 AM
Thanks for this, ccar. I have found the '73 Stuttgart and the '74 and '75 Bayreuth versions, but I can't find either the '76 Bayreuth, nor the '78 La Scala. Neither amazon nor arkivmusic has it.

This:

[asin]B000GH3CIO[/asin]

appears to be the same performance as the one I posted above, but without booklet and hence cheaper (and it comes with a review from Jens). I presume the sound quality is the same, since both are Opera d'Oro. Can someone confirm?

I had that one and traded it for the Bohm/Nilsson. There are some very good vocal performances on it, but the entire shebang was mortally crippled by the buried orchestral sound.


Quote from: marvinbrown on March 22, 2011, 02:08:32 AM
  James if you like this recording so much I would check out the DVD version of that cycle.  Recorded at the MET in the early 90s it is the only traditional (true to Wagner's intention) production of the complete Ring on the market:

  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Cq1NO8ZtL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

  marvin


Seconded.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ClassicalWeekly on April 02, 2011, 09:17:02 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on March 22, 2011, 07:08:51 AM
Just finished watching this fantastic modern production of Die Walkure, from The Copenhagen Ring.  Recommended.  I especially thought that Irene Theorin's performance of Brunnhilde compelling.

[asin]B0024396GU[/asin]

Did you find the video in Gotterdammerung to be a bit "filmy"?  I can't put my finger on it but the video has the feeling like it was recorded like a high-school play.  And that's not a knock on the production or the performers -- it's just the feel of the video is strange.

And I agree; Act II of walkure is very well done.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brahmsian on April 03, 2011, 06:48:26 AM
Quote from: ClassicalWeekly on April 02, 2011, 09:17:02 PM
Did you find the video in Gotterdammerung to be a bit "filmy"?  I can't put my finger on it but the video has the feeling like it was recorded like a high-school play.  And that's not a knock on the production or the performers -- it's just the feel of the video is strange.

And I agree; Act II of walkure is very well done.

Sorry ClassicalWeekly, I  have only seen the Copenhagen Rheingold and Die Walkure.  I have yet to see both the Copenhagen Siegfried and Gotterdammerung, but I will soon remedy this!  :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ClassicalWeekly on April 04, 2011, 10:37:52 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on April 03, 2011, 06:48:26 AM
Sorry ClassicalWeekly, I  have only seen the Copenhagen Rheingold and Die Walkure.  I have yet to see both the Copenhagen Siegfried and Gotterdammerung, but I will soon remedy this!  :)

Gotcha.  Well let me know when you get to the end of the prologue with B &S -- the filming is weird -- especially her makeup.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidW on April 29, 2011, 09:21:19 AM
I'm going to be watching Nagano's production of Lohengrin tomorrow, and I haven't seen Lohengrin in ~15 years.  Anything I should know coming into it, or should I just sit back and enjoy? :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bhodges on April 29, 2011, 09:25:21 AM
Quote from: haydnfan on April 29, 2011, 09:21:19 AM
I'm going to be watching Nagano's production of Lohengrin tomorrow, and I haven't seen Lohengrin in ~15 years.  Anything I should know coming into it, or should I just sit back and enjoy? :)

I find Lohengrin easier to get into than some of the others. If you've heard it already (even long ago) and are game for Wagner's language in general, I'd vote for the latter--just have a good time with it.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidW on April 29, 2011, 09:46:32 AM
Wow Bruce I didn't know that you listened to anything pre-20th century! :D

Accessible Wagner... that I could get behind. :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bhodges on April 29, 2011, 09:53:47 AM
Quote from: haydnfan on April 29, 2011, 09:46:32 AM
Wow Bruce I didn't know that you listened to anything pre-20th century! :D

Accessible Wagner... that I could get behind. :)

He-he... ;D  (I listen to virtually everything now and then...)

I saw Lohengrin at the Met fairly recently, in the first-booed (not by me), then-ultimately-praised production by Robert Wilson (sample below). Although I know what all the fuss was about--Wilson's abstraction and trademark super-slow choreography--I thought the production was absolutely gorgeous. It was all done with light: lines and rectangles slowly converging over the walls, ceiling and floor of the stage.

It could have been the visuals, but somehow I enjoyed Wagner's score much more than some of the others. (E.g., I've not warmed up to Meistersinger...)

--Bruce
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidW on April 29, 2011, 10:10:09 AM
That looks like trying too hard to be unique... but I guess I would have to see it to believe it.  Weird! ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bhodges on April 29, 2011, 10:11:55 AM
Imagine a Mondrian painting...except that all the red, yellow and blue components are slowly moving, almost constantly. I hope sometime they make a DVD of the production--it certainly deserves to be documented.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on April 29, 2011, 10:18:14 AM
Dutchman is very enjoyable, but then (a) it's early Wagner, so you see some of the musical influences showing (assuming that you believe that any of us merely mortal musicians could influence a suuuuper geeeenius like Wagner), and (b) it's briefer than any of the mature operas music dramas.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bhodges on April 29, 2011, 10:30:40 AM
I've never heard Dutchman! Hope to remedy that sometime.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on April 29, 2011, 10:35:57 AM
Quote from: Brewski on April 29, 2011, 10:30:40 AM
I've never heard Dutchman! Hope to remedy that sometime.

My first exposure to Dutchman was a concert performance at Symphony, Bruce.  But I should call it still stageworthy, too.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidW on April 29, 2011, 10:45:55 AM
I haven't seen the Dutchman either.  I like short operas... that's probably why I like Bluebeard's Castle so much. ;D (kidding for Bartok it's all about the music)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 30, 2011, 08:50:05 AM
Dutchmen, flying or otherwise, are always very enjoyable.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidW on April 30, 2011, 09:27:24 PM
I watched Lohengrin this evening, it was beautiful music, great acting, minimalist but effective set... it was great!

[asin]B001U5V04E[/asin]

Having watched Lohengrin, even if the link between the two is a light one, I still feel interested in watching Parsifal next.  I've never seen Parsifal.  There is only one available on netflix with mixed reviews.  So I thought I would just buy a dvd or bd of Parsifal.  The last discussion of this was awhile ago, I did see the mention of Nagano again, but I wanted to ask the question for a fresh discussion:

What is your favorite dvd of Parsifal?  What is your holy grail for Parsifal? ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: AndyD. on May 01, 2011, 12:23:26 PM
I love the Stein "Parsifal" dvd, the one with Jerusalem in Bayreuth. It featured what I consider to be a great, eminently likeable Gurnemanz by Hans Sotin.

I had problems with the conducting during the slowest parts, Stein for me has the same dilemma as Levine: he drags his Wagner. Both Levine and Stein do really well with the mid paced to fast, but on the slow things get very dragging. For me at least.

I didn't have anywhere the problems others did with the Kundry, though she could be a bit screechy.

I highly reccomend the Stein as a first Parsifal dvd purchase.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidW on May 01, 2011, 12:26:44 PM
Hey Andy!  Long time, no see.  Thanks for the rec. :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: AndyD. on May 01, 2011, 12:28:38 PM
Quote from: haydnfan on May 01, 2011, 12:26:44 PM
Hey Andy!  Long time, no see.  Thanks for the rec. :)


Hi! I have two other Parsifals (and seen three others besides), but the Stein was my first and favorite. Maybe the former was partly due to the latter.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Luke on May 10, 2011, 06:18:29 AM
Quote from: James on May 10, 2011, 03:01:26 AM

Tristan's horhouse atmosphere...

Sorry to isolate this one bit of an excellent post, James, but that is a fabulously appropriate typo  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on May 10, 2011, 06:19:54 AM
Nyuk nyuk! Tristan & the Floozy . . . .
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Chaszz on May 10, 2011, 09:00:20 AM
I don't know if the Met Die Walkure has been written about here recently, and unfortunately I don't have time to go back through the pages to find out. I saw it last night and was overwhelmed. The singing and playing was extraordinary.  Levine's dramatic pacing was superb -- he may take Wagner too slowly at times, but I don't think any other conductor can milk the pauses the way he does for every bit of drama and pathos. The story touched me more deeply than it ever has.

I saw the Rhinegold from this new cycle also (in the HD live movie theatre version) and thought the huge xylophone set was a gimmick worth somewhat less less than it cost. Die Walkure did not really change my mind on this, but in one scene it was very effective. The xylophone keys were black and vertical at the rear during the penultimate scene where Wotan tells Brunnhilde he is exiling her to a long sleep and will never see her again. At each successive stage of grief in one or the other of the two actors, the keys became gradually more covered with a painterly irregular white which slowly flowed downward in slow fits and starts from the ceiling to the floor. A real visual analogue of the pitiful emotions being expressed by the father and daughter.

I am a Wagner devotee but not an opera expert, so cannot really evaluate this properly. But this was one of the two best Wagner productions of the dozen or so I've attended at the Met -- the other being the Gergiev Parsifal I saw several there years ago. And since I am now retired and not better heeled the way I used to be, this was my first time in the highest balcony - the Family Circle. I didn't really mind the height and distance at all, and could see and hear everything fine. 

This is playing once more this coming Saturday afternoon at the opera house and HD live at the movies. If you like Die Walkure at all, I would advise you not to miss this. 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bhodges on May 10, 2011, 09:22:36 AM
Chaszz, thanks for that report, and good to hear some positive things. (Most comments I've read have been mixed.) I do agree with you, after seeing the first installment (twice) that the set seems a bit over-priced for the results they are getting. But we'll see after Die Walküre. I'm seeing it at the movies on Saturday afternoon.

And PS, the Family Circle is a great place to sit, sound-wise. Yes, ideally you need a pair of binoculars, and if some staging elements are very tall, the top may not be visible. But sonically, the blend of orchestra and singers is much better up there.

--Bruce



Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: JerryS on May 10, 2011, 07:54:31 PM
Quote from: Chaszz on May 10, 2011, 09:00:20 AM
...This is playing once more this coming Saturday afternoon at the opera house and HD live at the movies. If you like Die Walkure at all, I would advise you not to miss this.
I've been wanting to experience one of the Met HD Live presentations and this is the perfect opportunity! Die Walkure is my favorite Ring opera but so far I've only seen it in my living room (Levine 1990?, Mehta Valenciana and Copenhagen Ring). I checked the video clips on the Met site and it looks like a fairly traditional production.
Thank you for the reminder!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Rinaldo on May 14, 2011, 04:12:21 PM
Quote from: Chaszz on May 10, 2011, 09:00:20 AMI saw the Rhinegold from this new cycle also (in the HD live movie theatre version) and thought the huge xylophone set was a gimmick worth somewhat less less than it cost. Die Walkure did not really change my mind on this, but in one scene it was very effective. The xylophone keys were black and vertical at the rear during the penultimate scene where Wotan tells Brunnhilde he is exiling her to a long sleep and will never see her again. At each successive stage of grief in one or the other of the two actors, the keys became gradually more covered with a painterly irregular white which slowly flowed downward in slow fits and starts from the ceiling to the floor. A real visual analogue of the pitiful emotions being expressed by the father and daughter.

I admit I was generally impressed by the "xylophone" (seeing it for the first time) - especially in the finale. And I actually thought the snow coming down the mountain simply represented an avalanche pulled down by Wotan's voice (it first appeared right after one of his booming lines).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brahmsian on May 15, 2011, 08:50:01 AM
A high-school friend of mine, who I just recently reconnected with, told me her brother is heavily involved in the current production of the Met Ring.  So cool!!!!   8)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Guido on May 17, 2011, 03:05:10 AM
Oh my god! The Valkyries actually do the trills in Haitink's Ring cycle during the Ride of the Valkyries! Wagner writes a number of trills for his major rolls... Has anyone ever heard the trills being done properly by any Hans Sachs in that role? I can't remember where they come, but I remember looking at the score once and being extremely surprised!

Where else are there trills in Wagner, and which recordings honour the score in this regard?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Guido on May 17, 2011, 03:18:55 AM
Quote from: Chaszz on May 10, 2011, 09:00:20 AM
I saw the Rhinegold from this new cycle also (in the HD live movie theatre version) and thought the huge xylophone set was a gimmick worth somewhat less less than it cost. Die Walkure did not really change my mind on this, but in one scene it was very effective. The xylophone keys were black and vertical at the rear during the penultimate scene where Wotan tells Brunnhilde he is exiling her to a long sleep and will never see her again. At each successive stage of grief in one or the other of the two actors, the keys became gradually more covered with a painterly irregular white which slowly flowed downward in slow fits and starts from the ceiling to the floor. A real visual analogue of the pitiful emotions being expressed by the father and daughter.

They were meant to be avalanches! And it hardly needed "the machine" to do that projection.

I thought that musically it was good and sometimes great, but that this production had absolutely nothing to say about the work and was completely shallow.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Harry Powell on May 17, 2011, 06:18:13 AM
I agree. I watched it on cinema and thought it was just a renewal of "Grand Opéra" through technology. The actors direction was shallow and sometimes utterly mistaken.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 17, 2011, 07:15:12 AM
Quote from: Guido on May 17, 2011, 03:05:10 AM
Oh my god! The Valkyries actually do the trills in Haitink's Ring cycle during the Ride of the Valkyries! Wagner writes a number of trills for his major rolls... Has anyone ever heard the trills being done properly by any Hans Sachs in that role? I can't remember where they come, but I remember looking at the score once and being extremely surprised!

Where else are there trills in Wagner, and which recordings honour the score in this regard?

Hagen does a trill in Götterdämmerung, when he 'jokingly' calls the Gibich men to arms. I have heard it in the Solti.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on May 17, 2011, 07:17:33 AM
"Major rolls" is a great typo for Wagner!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Harry Powell on May 17, 2011, 07:18:19 AM
Siegfried's Brünnhilde must do a big trill in the big duet.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on May 17, 2011, 08:23:07 AM
time for a head to head on budget Rings.

Furtwangler/RAI vs. Bohm/Bayreuth

EMI is releasing the Furtwangler in a budget format in a couple of weeks;  the Bohm is already available in DG's budget format (Collector's Edition, so called).     The Bohm is about $5-$10 dollars more than the Furtwangler.   I have each of the four parts of the Ring in individual recordings, but no integral cycle, and both of these are tempting me. 

Who is for Bohm and who is Furtwangler?  And no,  I'm not going for the obvious solution--getting both!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on May 17, 2011, 01:59:25 PM
Quote from: kishnevi on May 17, 2011, 08:23:07 AM
time for a head to head on budget Rings.

Furtwangler/RAI vs. Bohm/Bayreuth

EMI is releasing the Furtwangler in a budget format in a couple of weeks;  the Bohm is already available in DG's budget format (Collector's Edition, so called).     The Bohm is about $5-$10 dollars more than the Furtwangler.   I have each of the four parts of the Ring in individual recordings, but no integral cycle, and both of these are tempting me. 

Who is for Bohm and who is Furtwangler?  And no,  I'm not going for the obvious solution--getting both!

Tough call. Böhm has, subject to your feelings about Theo Adam (I prefer either Hotter or Tomlinson as Wotan), a great cast in solid voice. He has the benefit of the previous decade and a half at Bayreuth, which left the orchestra and choir in remarkably good shape. Finally, the set as a whole is in excellent sound.

Furtwängler's cast has some weak spots, the RAI orchestra of 1953 isn't the Bayreuth orchestra of 1967, and the set doesn't have quite the same sound quality. But it has Mödl, which is a considerable credit, and Furtwängler was, in my view, probably a better Wagner conductor than Böhm (though I think Böhm's Meistersinger is more fun to listen to).

If I had to choose one before being packed off to some Siberia, I would probably pick Böhm (James King's Siegmund alone is worth the price of admission for me), but I'd probably spend the next couple of days second-guessing my decision.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: AndyD. on May 17, 2011, 02:30:16 PM
For just one, I'd pick the Böhm too. But the Furtwangler is well worth having.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Harry Powell on May 17, 2011, 03:57:08 PM
Avoid Theo Adam.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: eyeresist on May 18, 2011, 06:50:11 PM
I've heard Bohm's Rheingold and didn't much like it. He doesn't exactly stop to smell the flowers.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on May 18, 2011, 08:00:10 PM
My dilemma was settled for my Arkivmusic.
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Page?pageName=pages/listPromo.jsp&list_id=2241&site_id=E824

Furtwangler RAI set on sale for $39.99 for the next 24 hours (until Thursday midnight). 

Also, for those interested, the Sawallisch ring is also $39.99, Solti's second recording of Meistersinger is on sale for $29.00, and the newly released Met broadcast recording of Meistersinger is on sale for $14.99.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on May 18, 2011, 08:06:40 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 18, 2011, 06:50:11 PM
I've heard Bohm's Rheingold and didn't much like it. He doesn't exactly stop to smell the flowers.

Böhm's set is every bit as fast as Boulez's across the board. In fact, I think Böhm's Götterdämmerung may even be faster than Boulez's (I once compared runtimes for whatever reason).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Chaszz on May 21, 2011, 07:57:03 AM
Quote from: haydnfan on April 30, 2011, 09:27:24 PM
What is your favorite dvd of Parsifal?  What is your holy grail for Parsifal? ;D

I saw a completely mesmerizing Parsifal at the Met in about 2003 or so  conducted by Valery Gergiev. The sets and stunning use of the scrim curtain for magic effects were part of the impact, but the musical experience was sublime. This production is unrecorded, but another by Gergiev is available on CD, though not on DVD: 

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41qGGb2V0hL._SS400_.jpg)

I've not heard it, but it has gotten very good reviews. (Gergiev and Thielemann have been my favorite living Wagner conductors for awhile now. Levine joins them IMO after the recent Mat Walküre.) 

The greatest Parsifal I've heard is an Act III recorded in 1927, with barely believable quite good sound quality for that era, conducted by Karl Muck:(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51a2gRAMVEL._SS500_.jpg)

Muck apprenticed at Bayreuth not too long after Wagner's death so some of the conducting practices of the Master may have been passed along to him. There a quite a few recordings by him available, e.g. on Arkivrecords.com but I'm not  sure how much is duplicative. (Arkiv doesn't seem to  have the one above, which is on Amazon.) Being a fan of jazz of the era, I am amazed at how superior the sound was on the Muck 78's compared to that on jazz and other pop records of the time.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on June 08, 2011, 05:57:34 AM
Have been watching this new release of a not-so-new production of Parsifal.

[asin]B004RRW4HE[/asin]

It is the first production of Parsifal which has really worked for me.  Doing the entire thing at one sitting is still out of the question, but after the first hour and a quarter I still feel myself being drawn in by the music.   I attribute it to Sinopoli's feel for the ebb and flow of the orchestra in this music.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on June 08, 2011, 06:11:45 AM
Muck of course was one of the earliest music directors of the Boston Symphony.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on June 08, 2011, 06:13:59 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 08, 2011, 06:11:45 AM
Muck of course was one of the earliest music directors of the Boston Symphony.

Am I supposed to know who Muck is?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on June 08, 2011, 06:15:17 AM
The conductor in the second recording Chaszz mentions here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,113.msg517155.html#msg517155).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on June 08, 2011, 06:16:10 AM
(Sorry, I didn't mark just how old Chaszz's post is . . . .)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on June 08, 2011, 06:23:17 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 08, 2011, 06:16:10 AM
(Sorry, I didn't mark just how old Chaszz's post is . . . .)

No problem, I was trying to construe how "Giuseppi Sinopoli" could be turned into "Muck" and how he could possibly have been the first direction of the BSO.   ???
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Harry Powell on June 08, 2011, 06:24:21 AM
One wonders how a singer like Poul Elming could appear before an audience.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MishaK on June 08, 2011, 08:08:12 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on June 08, 2011, 06:13:59 AM
Am I supposed to know who Muck is?

Clearly there is not enough Muck-raking going on in this forum.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on June 08, 2011, 08:17:07 AM
Quote from: Harry Powell on June 08, 2011, 06:24:21 AM
One wonders how a singer like Poul Elming could appear before an audience.

Ok..., too chubby?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on June 08, 2011, 09:29:42 PM
Finished up the first act of Parsifal (same DVD cited above).  Half-an-act per days seems to be my saturation point.  There is beautiful music in this piece, and although the story does not particularly resonate with me the emotions that the characters experience does.   The music that accompanies the transition to the ceremony which closes the first act is truly stunning.  Amfortas's soliloquy in the subsequent scene is also wonderfully portrayed.  However, the extended choruses that accompany the ceremony seem interminable.  Looking forward to the second act, where there is some action (or what passes for action in Wagner).   :) 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 09, 2011, 07:03:03 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on June 08, 2011, 09:29:42 PMThe music that accompanies the transition to the ceremony which closes the first act is truly stunning.  Amfortas's soliloquy in the subsequent scene is also wonderfully portrayed.  However, the extended choruses that accompany the ceremony seem interminable.  Looking forward to the second act, where there is some action (or what passes for action in Wagner).   :)

When I first got into Wagner, my grandfather told me about his technique (as a student circa 1920) for surviving Parsifal in the theater (when he could only afford standing room): he would lie on the floor after the transformation scene and go to sleep, and then wake up in time for the real action in Act 2, Parsifal's confrontation with Klingsor  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Harry Powell on June 09, 2011, 07:46:25 AM
 :D brilliant, but I would shorten the nap to listen to the masterly Parsifal-Kundry scene.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Mirror Image on June 13, 2011, 10:22:08 PM
This is a fascinating thread to go through. Thanks to all who contributed! I'm trying to learn more about Wagner and this is an informative thread.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brahmsian on June 14, 2011, 05:58:25 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 13, 2011, 10:22:08 PM
This is a fascinating thread to go through. Thanks to all who contributed! I'm trying to learn more about Wagner and this is an informative thread.

Enjoy exploring The Ring, MI.  It's a really wild, fun ride.  Hang on to your hat!  :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on June 14, 2011, 06:19:11 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 09, 2011, 07:03:03 AM
When I first got into Wagner, my grandfather told me about his technique (as a student circa 1920) for surviving Parsifal in the theater (when he could only afford standing room): he would lie on the floor after the transformation scene and go to sleep, and then wake up in time for the real action in Act 2, Parsifal's confrontation with Klingsor  :D

Sarge

(* pounds the table with a flagon *)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 14, 2011, 01:30:49 PM
Quote from: Harry Powell on June 09, 2011, 07:46:25 AM
...I would shorten the nap to listen to the masterly Parsifal-Kundry scene.

Me too  8)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 16, 2011, 12:54:08 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 14, 2011, 01:30:49 PMMe too  8)


I would shorten it even further - I love the whole of Act 2 and wouldn't want to miss the scene between Klingsor and Kundry, nor the one between Parsifal and the Flower Maidens.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: MDL on June 17, 2011, 09:06:17 AM
Tomorrow morning at 9:30, Building A Library on Radio 3 will be seeking out the best Tristan und Isolde. Wonder which one will come out tops. Which recording would GMGers recommend? I've got Bohm's recording which I think will do me, although I sometimes have a hankering to hear the DG Kleiber.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PSmith08 on June 17, 2011, 07:49:47 PM
Quote from: MDL on June 17, 2011, 09:06:17 AM
Tomorrow morning at 9:30, Building A Library on Radio 3 will be seeking out the best Tristan und Isolde. Wonder which one will come out tops. Which recording would GMGers recommend? I've got Bohm's recording which I think will do me, although I sometimes have a hankering to hear the DG Kleiber.

I'm pretty fond of Kleiber's Tristan; in fact, it's probably my first choice. That said, I have found it remarkably hard to dismiss Bernstein's 1983 set on Philips. It's probably too long and the cast leaves something to be desired, but Bernstein really sells his interpretation.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on June 17, 2011, 10:54:38 PM
Quote from: MDL on June 17, 2011, 09:06:17 AM
Tomorrow morning at 9:30, Building A Library on Radio 3 will be seeking out the best Tristan und Isolde. Wonder which one will come out tops. Which recording would GMGers recommend? I've got Bohm's recording which I think will do me, although I sometimes have a hankering to hear the DG Kleiber.

The studio Kleiber for me.

A monster of an idea, but....for the conducting how about the studio versions of

Act 1 Furtwangler
Act 2 Kleiber
Act 3 Karajan

Throw in tha live DG Bohm with Nilsson, Act 1 with Gertrude Grob-Prandl, Runnicles for his patient slow builds and Flagstad/Melchior/Reiner as a terrific combination and I might just about manage to be sated.

I will listen in to find out how the comparisons go. Non starters for me are Solti and Goodall.

Mike.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on June 18, 2011, 01:43:07 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/619k5PoPpbL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The review took almost an hour and a quarter. This is the one that came out top. It is full price; but next month will be issued at bargain price, without libretto.

I did not altogether agree with the reviewer who found Kleiber both tempestuous and cool! Did not care for Vickers or Karajan. So the usual subjectivity that is only natural.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 18, 2011, 02:47:51 AM
Quote from: knight66 on June 18, 2011, 01:43:07 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/619k5PoPpbL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The review took almost an hour and a quarter. This is the one that came out top.

Interesting choice...and one of only two Barenboim Wagner recordings I don't own (the other is Meistersinger). I believe that's Jens' favorite Tristan (if not his favorite one of his top choices anyway). I've stayed away from it despite his recommendation because I'm no fan of Meier. Just don't enjoy the sound of her voice.

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on June 18, 2011, 02:56:30 AM
Ditto, nor of Stemme who the BBC critic was ecstatic about. I have her on his recommended Video version from Glyndebourne, I rate it highly, but the sound of her voice is diluted by the drama, acting etc. Listening to it without the visuals; I don't really enjoy her.

Mike

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on June 18, 2011, 05:20:58 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 16, 2011, 12:54:08 PM

I would shorten it even further - I love the whole of Act 2 and wouldn't want to miss the scene between Klingsor and Kundry, nor the one between Parsifal and the Flower Maidens.

The Flowermaiden scene is one of the best things in the work, I think. 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: GanChan on June 18, 2011, 05:34:57 AM
Speaking of Tristan, what's the best-sounding remaster of the classic 1952 Vinay-Modl-Karajan recording? The sound apparently varies wildly from label to label, with lesser transfers suffering from heavy overloading at climaxes. I know at least one label got it right, but I can't recall which one.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Mirror Image on June 18, 2011, 07:31:18 AM
Quote from: knight66 on June 18, 2011, 01:43:07 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/619k5PoPpbL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The review took almost an hour and a quarter. This is the one that came out top. It is full price; but next month will be issued at bargain price, without libretto.

I did not altogether agree with the reviewer who found Kleiber both tempestuous and cool! Did not care for Vickers or Karajan. So the usual subjectivity that is only natural.

Mike

I've been looking at this one, Mike. I'll keep my eye out for an original, because I want the libretto. You also answered my question on the other Wagner thread which was do the new reissued Barenboim recordings come with libretto and now I know that don't so kudos for that. :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Mandryka on June 18, 2011, 09:34:40 PM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on June 18, 2011, 05:20:58 AM
The Flowermaiden scene is one of the best things in the work, I think.

It's the kiss that I like. Me, I can't bear all the stuff with Klingsor and the flowers, but the Parsifal/Kundry duet is for me the heart of the opera. What is going on when he kisses her? What does he learn? Why does he refuse go further?  I don't know -- a mystery and it's probably all nonsense.

One of the reasons I like Kna/Vickers/Hotter is that this duet comes off well == as it does in the Karajan
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on June 19, 2011, 02:29:18 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 18, 2011, 09:34:40 PM
It's the kiss that I like. Me, I can't bear all the stuff with Klingsor and the flowers, but the Parsifal/Kundry duet is for me the heart of the opera. What is going on when he kisses her? What does he learn? Why does he refuse go further?  I don't know -- a mystery and it's probably all nonsense.

He most likely has a sudden revelation of all those places those lips have been in the last 900 years. Now that's a thought fit to bring even the surest seducer to a pale. [In her former incarnations she must have f-ed half of antiquity.]

From the upcoming 2011 (Society of Friends of) Bayreuth Almanac:

Quote...Kundry's name comes from "Kunde geben", 'to bear tidings'. The grail's messenger knows much – and moonlights as Klingsor's top hooker on the side. This "wild rider" (no pun intended) simply isn't the right mate for Parsifal. She gets described as a demonic primeval woman (hence her nickname 'Hell's Rose'), and a few of her re-incarnation pit stops through history are mentioned: For example Herodias and "Gundryggia" (Weaver of War, one of the Valkyries, more or less made up by Wagner). According to Wagner's rigorously drastic explanation she's condemned to bring suffering upon man by means of seduction. Redemption, resolution, and concluding expiration are only in the cards for her if a perfectly pure man in the prime of his life can resist her best attempts at seduction. Boy, Wagner really has a knack for putting things into a nutshell...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Mandryka on June 19, 2011, 08:34:41 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 19, 2011, 02:29:18 AM
He most likely has a sudden revelation of all those places those lips have been in the last 900 years. Now that's a thought fit to bring even the surest seducer to a pale. [In her former incarnations she must have f-ed half of antiquity.]

From the upcoming 2011 (Society of Friends of) Bayreuth Almanac:

Hmmmm. That makes it sound as though it's just sex with Kundry which he flees from. I suspect he's fleeing from sex with any woman.

Because Parsifal had some sort of revelation in the duet with Kundry, he becomes the redeemer in Act 3.

Klingsor's self-castration is not irrelevant here too.

See why I say it's probably all nonsense  :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on June 19, 2011, 01:22:03 PM
Quote...Kundry's name comes from "Kunde geben", 'to bear tidings'. The grail's messenger knows much – and moonlights as Klingsor's top hooker on the side. This "wild rider" (no pun intended) simply isn't the right mate for Parsifal. She gets described as a demonic primeval woman (hence her nickname 'Hell's Rose'), and a few of her re-incarnation pit stops through history are mentioned: For example Herodias and "Gundryggia" (Weaver of War, one of the Valkyries, more or less made up by Wagner). According to Wagner's rigorously drastic explanation she's condemned to bring suffering upon man by means of seduction. Redemption, resolution, and concluding expiration are only in the cards for her if a perfectly pure man in the prime of his life can resist her best attempts at seduction. Boy, Wagner really has a knack for putting things into a nutshell...

More like a coconut shell. 

Wagner was clearly a miracle worker with an orchestra, the fact that he could only find inspiration in these bastardized medieval texts and not in the passions and dilemmas of actual human beings is my main difficulty with him.  A real woman is not complex enough, he has to populate his operas with these grotesque pseudo-mythical figures?   
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on June 19, 2011, 01:44:28 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 19, 2011, 08:34:41 AM
Hmmmm. That makes it sound as though it's just sex with Kundry which he flees from. I suspect he's fleeing from sex with any woman.


Well, if you've heard about, seen, and/or enjoyed Lohengrin, you know that ain't so.

From the same text [my very liberal translation]
QuoteIf we evaluate the questionable 'coupling-prohibition' of Wagner's last music drama, we should remember that the story continues well beyond act III. Parsifal does find an adequate partner when he meets Kondwiramur ("conduir l'amour" – 'leading love') and has two children with her; Kardeiz (better suited for worldly matters) and of course Lohengrin (more adept in matters spiritual). So much for absolute chastity.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Mandryka on June 19, 2011, 09:13:36 PM
Was Lohengrin written at the same time as Parsifal? I guess all sorts of new ideas  could have influenced Wagner between the operas.

In fact I've only seen Lohengrin once and I have no recordings, so I hardly know it.

The text for Wagner's Parsifal is only loosely based on the old legend. I don't see how that comment about Kondwiramur etc can be relevant.

One interesting and may be relevant thing is what happens at the end. I think Parsifal normally abandons Kundry -- she isn't allowed to be touched by the magic of the revealed grail. I believe in his last Beyreuth performance Knappertsbusch insisted on changing the stage directions: Parsifal led Kundry right up to the shrine as he sang his final lines.

That would make Mosalvat more like a hippy commune than a monastery full of male celibates. Anyway, when I'm invited to produce it at Beureuth that's how I will set it: Act one in an old person's home; Act two in a brothel; Act three in a hippy community living on the beach in California  ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Mirror Image on June 19, 2011, 10:23:47 PM
I've been making my way through Solti's Parsifal and I have to say this is just an incredible piece of music. I thought I would never be sitting here talking about how much I love Wagner's music. I knew of his importance, and, me, not being a big fan of opera, I simply avoided him and only listened to his overtures/preludes from the operas and the Siegfried Idyll. Now, I'm starting to think that I should have just jumped right into the operas and throw any kind of negative preconceived notions I had out the window. I was WRONG about Wagner and about opera in general. This medium has become highly enjoyable for me and it all started with Bartok's Bluebeard's Castle which was the opera that broke down the "noise barriers" in my ears and allowed me to hear the beauty of the human voice in conjunction with an orchestra.

Wagner's operas are long, drawn out, sometimes incredibly brash, but my goodness do I love them! :D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: zamyrabyrd on June 19, 2011, 11:40:44 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 19, 2011, 08:34:41 AM
Hmmmm. That makes it sound as though it's just sex with Kundry which he flees from. I suspect he's fleeing from sex with any woman. Because Parsifal had some sort of revelation in the duet with Kundry, he becomes the redeemer in Act 3. Klingsor's self-castration is not irrelevant here too.
See why I say it's probably all nonsense  :)

Kundry can only redeem herself by Dienen (service), which may apply not only to women in general but despised races. The liturgy of the blood in Parsifal is too much for me, and even perverse.

Lohengrin's higher calling back to the Monastery of the Holy Grail had him renounce human love, once his identity was revealed. There is something to Nietzsche's complaint, the 'Case of Wagner', where he openly prefers the more believable humanity of Bizet's Carmen. Also there is something to Wagner's own uncertainty as to his own paternity and by extension, suspicions and even resentment towards his mother.

ZB
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on June 20, 2011, 12:12:04 AM
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on June 19, 2011, 11:40:44 PM
. Also there is something to Wagner's own uncertainty as to his own paternity and by extension, suspicions and even resentment towards his mother.

The latter is an assertion I can't follow. RW, who even took his stepfather's name as a kid, would probably have been happy/proud if he had been the biological son of Richard Geyer.

Quote from: Mandryka on June 19, 2011, 09:13:36 PM
Was Lohengrin written at the same time as Parsifal?
The text for Wagner's Parsifal is only loosely based on the old legend. I don't see how that comment about Kondwiramur etc can be relevant.

Lohengrin was written long before Parsifal... (Parsifal being the last opera; Lohengrin his sixth* in all, fourth 'proper' one, and third in the 'canon'. Depending on how you look at it, it's the last of his 'conventional' operas or the first of Wagner-as-Wagner.)

The legends Wagner worked off are always relevant, because he might change, invent, re-name, re-place details, work his personal experiences into all of them, and pilfer his own jumble of philosophy and impose that on the subjects... but that doesn't change the fact that Parsifal married Kondwiramur and have children. "In Wagner" they have Lohengrin directly; in the old sources there's another generation between the two. Wagner was aware of that when he put it in Lohengrin; he didn't suddenly forget it when he composed Parsifal.

*counting only completed operas starting with Die Feen -> Das Liebesverbot -> Rienzi -> Flying D'man -> Tannhäuser -> Lohengrin.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on June 20, 2011, 12:13:52 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 20, 2011, 12:12:04 AMLohengrin was written long before Parsifal... (Parsifal being the last opera; Lohengrin his sixth* in all, fourth 'proper' one, and third in the 'canon'. Depending on how you look at it, it's the last of his 'conventional' operas or the first of Wagner-as-Wagner.)

The text of Parsifal was written long before the music, I seem to recall reading.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on June 20, 2011, 01:25:00 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on June 20, 2011, 12:13:52 AM
The text of Parsifal was written long before the music, I seem to recall reading.

Kernels of ideas (as in all his work) precede the composition, as does the creation of the text... but even that only really began with some sketches drafts about 20 years after Lohengrin (1845-48) was conceived and was then put into proper form some 30 years after Lohengrin, around 1877.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: mjwal on June 20, 2011, 02:21:21 AM

The legends Wagner worked off are always relevant, because he might change, invent, re-name, re-place details, work his personal experiences into all of them, and pilfer his own jumble of philosophy and impose that on the subjects... but that doesn't change the fact that Parsifal married Kondwiramur and have children.
[/quote]
Sheesh, and i always thought Wolfram von Eschenbach had made Condwiramurs up in his fictional verse romance. There is such a thing as the Grail legend, but the story of Peredur/Perceval/Parsival/Parsifal was picked up and embroidered by each successive writer. So there is no "fact" involved.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on June 20, 2011, 03:31:15 AM
Quote from: mjwal on June 20, 2011, 02:21:21 AM
Sheesh, and i always thought Wolfram von Eschenbach had made Condwiramurs up in his fictional verse romance. There is such a thing as the Grail legend, but the story of Peredur/Perceval/Parsival/Parsifal was picked up and embroidered by each successive writer. So there is no "fact" involved.

Rocky won his first World Championship against Apollo Creed. That's a fact, even if it's a fictionalized series. Kondwiramur is, in that sense, a fact... just as Parceval is a fact. Facts refer to the frame of reference, not necessarily 'reality'. The latter would be called a 'historical fact'. My point is merely that Kondwiramur does matter in the Wagner context; that in Wagner Kondwiramur is Lohengrin's mother, just as Parsifal is his father... [Whereas in Eschenbach-fact Parzifal is Lohengrin's dad.]
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: mjwal on June 20, 2011, 05:19:55 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 20, 2011, 03:31:15 AM
Rocky won his first World Championship against Apollo Creed. That's a fact, even if it's a fictionalized series. Kondwiramur is, in that sense, a fact... just as Parceval is a fact. Facts refer to the frame of reference, not necessarily 'reality'. The latter would be called a 'historical fact'. My point is merely that Kondwiramur does matter in the Wagner context; that in Wagner Kondwiramur is Lohengrin's mother, just as Parsifal is his father... [Whereas in Eschenbach-fact Parzifal is Lohengrin's dad.]

This strikes me as sophistry. Lohengrin and Parsifal do not form a "series". Condwiramurs is not a figure in Parsifal but in Wolfram's Parzifal, where she is the mother of Loherangrin and Kardeiz. Kondwiramur is a not a figure mentioned in Wagner's Lohengrin. That is a fact. "Vom Gral ward ich zu euch daher gesandt: mein Vater Parzival trägt seine Krone,sein Ritter ich - bin Lohengrin genannt."  But in Wagner's Parsifal there are no women in Montsalvat, as all the knights of the Grail are celibate. Parsifal as a work of art is not a sequel to and has nothing to do withLohengrin.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 20, 2011, 05:50:06 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on June 19, 2011, 01:22:03 PM
Wagner was clearly a miracle worker with an orchestra, the fact that he could only find inspiration in these bastardized medieval texts and not in the passions and dilemmas of actual human beings is my main difficulty with him. A real woman is not complex enough, he has to populate his operas with these grotesque pseudo-mythical figures?   

The people and their stories in the medieval period weren't actual human beings? Do you believe, like Harold Bloom, that the human was invented by Shakespeare? ;D  Are not Senta (who, "according to Wagner, should be seen as a wholly robust Nordic girl"), Elsa, Elisabeth, Eva, Isolde, Sieglinde, Guntrune and post-immortal Brünnhilde real women? with real human flaws and virtues, real human concerns and problems? Even the goddess Fricka is mainly concerned with traditional family values.

Sarge



 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on June 20, 2011, 06:29:00 AM
Quote from: mjwal on June 20, 2011, 05:19:55 AM
This strikes me as sophistry. Lohengrin and Parsifal do not form a "series". Condwiramurs is not a figure in Parsifal but in Wolfram's Parzifal, where she is the mother of Loherangrin and Kardeiz. Kondwiramur is a not a figure mentioned in Wagner's Lohengrin. That is a fact. "Vom Gral ward ich zu euch daher gesandt: mein Vater Parzival trägt seine Krone,sein Ritter ich - bin Lohengrin genannt."  But in Wagner's Parsifal there are no women in Montsalvat, as all the knights of the Grail are celibate. Parsifal as a work of art is not a sequel to and has nothing to do withLohengrin.

This started with "That makes it sound as though it's just sex with Kundry which he flees from. I suspect he's fleeing from sex with any woman." Where you come in, with your semi-educated chirpings, I don't know. But apart from the fact that Kondwiramur is mentioned in Wagner's writings and sketches (though not in the libretto), the argument is not that Parsial is a perfect prequel to Lohengrin but that Parsifal doesn't run away from sex with women as such. Twat.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: mjwal on June 20, 2011, 06:47:18 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 20, 2011, 06:29:00 AM
This started with "That makes it sound as though it's just sex with Kundry which he flees from. I suspect he's fleeing from sex with any woman." Where you come in, with your semi-educated chirpings, I don't know. But apart from the fact that Kondwiramur is mentioned in Wagner's writings and sketches (though not in the libretto), the argument is not that Parsial is a perfect prequel to Lohengrin but that Parsifal doesn't run away from sex with women as such. Twat.
Hahaha, insult is the last resort of the authoritarian mind. I have said nothing about Parsifal running away from women as such. It's worth considering, though - your contorted logic makes one suspect that you have over-invested in your denial. Is the libretto as it stands not the basis for discussion? if Wagner omitted the name in the libretto, he doubtless had a reason for doing that. Confusing the genealogy of the art-work with the work itself is always a bad sign. Tweet tweet.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on June 20, 2011, 07:06:04 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 20, 2011, 05:50:06 AM
The people and their stories in the medieval period weren't actual human beings? Do you believe, like Harold Bloom, that the human was invented by Shakespeare? ;D  Are not Senta (who, "according to Wagner, should be seen as a wholly robust Nordic girl"), Elsa, Elisabeth, Eva, Isolde, Sieglinde, Guntrune and post-immortal Brünnhilde real women? with real human flaws and virtues, real human concerns and problems? Even the goddess Fricka is mainly concerned with traditional family values.

You live close to the Rhine, do you ever see the Rhinemaidens frolicking around under the water?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 20, 2011, 07:29:44 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on June 20, 2011, 07:06:04 AM
You live close to the Rhine, do you ever see the Rhinemaidens frolicking around under the water?

Yes, and they are entirely nude. I love this country  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Mirror Image on June 20, 2011, 07:41:22 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 20, 2011, 07:29:44 AM
Yes, and they are entirely nude. I love this country  :D

Sarge

LOL...  :P
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: mjwal on June 20, 2011, 08:40:55 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 20, 2011, 07:27:23 AM
if you don't care to read the ongoing thread of a discussion or don't bother to inform yourself what post might be answers to specific questions, then it isn't very surprising that your contributions are of little value.

How do you come to make these assumptions? I read the thread. I picked up on a point that arose from it. Only authoritarians believe they can dictate the way a discussion might develop.
If I were disposed to question the writing preparations made by you before sending your comment at 6:29, then I might be offended in several ways by the deleted word that appears in ghostly form after "women as such" in the quote I made of it at 6:47. But I will just write it off as the sulky outburst of a person who has been bested in argument.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Mandryka on June 20, 2011, 10:04:43 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 19, 2011, 02:29:18 AM
He most likely has a sudden revelation of all those places those lips have been in the last 900 years. Now that's a thought fit to bring even the surest seducer to a pale. [In her former incarnations she must have f-ed half of antiquity.]


Are you saying that when he kisses her in Act 2 he thinks "oh --I bet  she's slept around. I don't fancy that!" ?

So what happens in  Act 2 which transforms him into the redeemer in Act 3?


Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Mirror Image on June 20, 2011, 05:33:33 PM
Bought these Wagner opera sets tonight:

[asin]B000001GXS[/asin]
[asin]B00006469T[/asin]
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on June 20, 2011, 06:33:03 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 19, 2011, 09:13:36 PM

One interesting and may be relevant thing is what happens at the end. I think Parsifal normally abandons Kundry -- she isn't allowed to be touched by the magic of the revealed grail. I believe in his last Beyreuth performance Knappertsbusch insisted on changing the stage directions: Parsifal led Kundry right up to the shrine as he sang his final lines.


As I read the libretto, it sounds to me as if Parsifal doesn't abandon her--she dies, in a sort of ecstasy, at the end as the Grail is revealed to the assembly of knights, and her visual focus as she dies (and in fact, for much of Act III) is on Parsifal.  If anyone is abandoning anyone, it's Kundry abandoning the earthly life at long last.   She doesn't need the Grail itself, and her service to the knights was part of her penance-- but now her punishment is through, and she is redeemed by Parsifal (symbolized by him baptising her at the end of Act III Scene 1).   If you want to say it in  a phrase, for Kundry Parsifal is the Grail.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: GanChan on June 20, 2011, 08:42:50 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 20, 2011, 05:33:33 PM
Bought these Wagner opera sets tonight:

[asin]B000001GXS[/asin]
[asin]B00006469T[/asin]

"Um, Mr. Domingo, you have a bird growing out of your head..."

I own and like the Bohm, though I do get a bit tired of the ceaseless Nilsson-Windgassen pairings that seem to monopolize my Wagner shelf.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Mandryka on June 20, 2011, 08:54:53 PM
Quote from: kishnevi on June 20, 2011, 06:33:03 PM
As I read the libretto, it sounds to me as if Parsifal doesn't abandon her--she dies, in a sort of ecstasy, at the end as the Grail is revealed to the assembly of knights, and her visual focus as she dies (and in fact, for much of Act III) is on Parsifal.  If anyone is abandoning anyone, it's Kundry abandoning the earthly life at long last.   She doesn't need the Grail itself, and her service to the knights was part of her penance-- but now her punishment is through, and she is redeemed by Parsifal (symbolized by him baptising her at the end of Act III Scene 1).   If you want to say it in  a phrase, for Kundry Parsifal is the Grail.

Yes -- you're right. My bad.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on June 20, 2011, 08:57:54 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 20, 2011, 08:54:53 PM
Yes -- you're right. My bad.

It's okay.  Your idea of a brothel for Act II and a commune for aging hippies in Act III sound pretty good to me.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on June 20, 2011, 10:28:25 PM
Quote from: GanChan on June 20, 2011, 08:42:50 PM
"Um, Mr. Domingo, you have a bird growing out of your head..."

I own and like the Bohm, though I do get a bit tired of the ceaseless Nilsson-Windgassen pairings that seem to monopolize my Wagner shelf.

I have both of these. The Tristan is a classic set and very well thought of. I like it, but never have got on with Windgassen. I did get rid of the Solti; then regretted it and got hold of it again. The voices are not quite right; but I do enjoy it.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Harry Powell on June 21, 2011, 03:10:53 AM
Hi Mike
I don't care too much for Windgassen either. In short, I'd say I respect his musicianship but never get real excitement from him. His was a voice closer to Loge or even Mime than to a real Heldentenor. In fact if you compare him to Paul Kuen in the Krauss "Siegfried" you won't fail to perceive Kuen's voice had more ping to it. Still, I respect enormously a lyric tenor who could sing the final duet and never strain or push the tone. Unfortunately, in 1966 his decline was accentuated by Nilsson's seemingly inexhaustible ringing tones. Im the Second Act I have always thought of an old Tristan wooing Isolde.

As for the "Lohengrin", I feel it was late for Domingo.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on June 21, 2011, 03:17:03 AM
Quote from: knight66 on June 20, 2011, 10:28:25 PM
.... I did get rid of the Solti; then regretted it and got hold of it again. The voices are not quite right; but I do enjoy it.


That's roughly how I feel about the Solti, too. Domingo's 'German' is very Domingoesque, for one... but I suppose you could just figure that he's a chap from far, far away and legitimately has an accent. (No wonder Ortrud is suspicious.)
Though my reason for re-acquiring it, had I ever given it away in the first place, would have been that it's one of the very few uncut Lohengrins on record*. One is spared nothing from the third act...

(* The other one being Barenboim's Lohengrin, methinks... but that's one Barenboim Wagner I don't actually have.)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on June 21, 2011, 03:20:31 AM
Quote from: MDL on June 17, 2011, 09:06:17 AM
Tomorrow morning at 9:30, Building A Library on Radio 3 will be seeking out the best Tristan und Isolde. Wonder which one will come out tops. Which recording would GMGers recommend? I've got Bohm's recording which I think will do me, although I sometimes have a hankering to hear the DG Kleiber.


EMI GREAT RECORDINGS OF THE CENTURY'S TRISTAN UND ISOLDE, CONDUCTOR: FURTWANGLER, ISOLDE: FLAGSTAD!  EVERY WAGNERIAN MUST HEAR THIS BEFORE THEY DIE!

  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51E-52fZvVL._SS400_.jpg)
  As far as I am concerned no woman on planet earth or any other planet defines the role of Isolde like Kristen Flagstad!   
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Mandryka on June 21, 2011, 11:39:13 AM
Quote from: Harry Powell on June 21, 2011, 03:10:53 AM
Hi Mike
I don't care too much for Windgassen either. In short, I'd say I respect his musicianship but never get real excitement from him. His was a voice closer to Loge or even Mime than to a real Heldentenor. In fact if you compare him to Paul Kuen in the Krauss "Siegfried" you won't fail to perceive Kuen's voice had more ping to it. Still, I respect enormously a lyric tenor who could sing the final duet and never strain or push the tone. Unfortunately, in 1966 his decline was accentuated by Nilsson's seemingly inexhaustible ringing tones. Im the Second Act I have always thought of an old Tristan wooing Isolde.

As for the "Lohengrin", I feel it was late for Domingo.

Maybe but he's good in Gotterdammerung -- when he sings Brünnhilde! Heilige Braut! Wach auf! Öffne dein Auge! Wer verschloß dich wieder in Schlaf?

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Mandryka on June 21, 2011, 11:42:09 AM
Anyone tried the Keilberth Gotterdammerung -- the one with Hotter as Gunther? I'm tempted to get it to hear him.

[asin]B001NB7XIW[/asin]
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: GanChan on June 21, 2011, 11:56:59 AM
Quote from: Harry Powell on June 21, 2011, 03:10:53 AM
Hi Mike
I don't care too much for Windgassen either. In short, I'd say I respect his musicianship but never get real excitement from him. His was a voice closer to Loge or even Mime than to a real Heldentenor. In fact if you compare him to Paul Kuen in the Krauss "Siegfried" you won't fail to perceive Kuen's voice had more ping to it. Still, I respect enormously a lyric tenor who could sing the final duet and never strain or push the tone. Unfortunately, in 1966 his decline was accentuated by Nilsson's seemingly inexhaustible ringing tones. Im the Second Act I have always thought of an old Tristan wooing Isolde.

As for the "Lohengrin", I feel it was late for Domingo.

From all accounts Windgassen was also an intelligent actor who used the text well, adding to his value in the Wagnerian world. He was kind the go-to utility player on the Bayreuth team. He even saved the Culshaw Ring when, after initially being passed over for a younger Siegfried with a more glamorous voice, the new "star" proved incapable of learning the role or singing it with any insight, leading an embarrassed Culshaw to ask for Windgassen's help. So at the very least, he did no harm.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on June 21, 2011, 12:08:01 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 21, 2011, 11:42:09 AM
Anyone tried the Keilberth Gotterdammerung -- the one with Hotter as Gunther? I'm tempted to get it to hear him.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51F9pog-qQL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Keilberth - G'dammerung - Bayreuth 1955
Second Ring
Moedl / Hotter
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001NB7XIW/goodmusicguide-20)

I'm listening to the First of those G'daemmerungs right now... but I haven't the 'second cycle'. Apparently this is also in Decca's early stereo?

I love Hotter... I can understand the temptation just for him.

Quote from: Mandryka on June 21, 2011, 11:42:09 AM
Anyone tried the Keilberth Gotterdammerung -- the one with Hotter as Gunther? I'm tempted to get it to hear him.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51AQ-cYoLvL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Keilberth - G'dammerung - Bayreuth 1955
First  Ring
Varnay / Uhde
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000J20D6K/goodmusicguide-20)



Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on July 14, 2011, 02:14:24 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 21, 2011, 11:42:09 AM
Anyone tried the Keilberth Gotterdammerung -- the one with Hotter as Gunther?

[asin]B001NB7XIW[/asin]

Hotter as Gunther?! World is going to explode from sheer awesomeness!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Harry Powell on August 03, 2011, 10:07:25 AM
I haven't seen if there's a Bayreuth thread, so forgive me for commenting here. I just listened to the broadcasts of "Tannhäuser" and "Lohengrin". One could only save the playing from the orchestra and the magnificent choir.

In "Tannhäuser" we had to endure one of the worst singers who have ever trodden Bayreuth: a certain Ms. Friede as Venus. A woman with the voice and style of a Mamma Lucia in a third-rate theatre. Lars Cleveman was the usual German tenor. Robust on the medium notes but coarse as the tessitura went higher. Michael Nagy also offers the expected throaty falsetto. One of those baritones who seem unable to deliver a full-blooded forte. To tell the truth, I interrupted the audition too much to judge Elisabeth.


In "Lohengrin" starred Florian Vogt. This a bewildering singer in whom one cannot recognise chest resonance anywhere in his range. Every note sounds in a pale, feeble timbre. It's true he sang some p and pp, but there was no mezzavoce and, as he cannot use the covered sound on the F-G fach, all the high A's were strained. A strange recast of the lyric German tenor. Annete Dasch, very appreciated by the HIP hooligans, was at pains to sing in key throughout the performance. An insignificant voice with no technique to speak about. Petra Lang is, as voice and temperament, a singer for Elsa but with an Elsa like Dasch it's logical (in accordance with Bayreuth logics) to cast her as Ortrud. She strains a lot, obviously. A so-called baritone barked his way through the role of Telramund.


 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: zamyrabyrd on August 03, 2011, 10:38:32 AM
Quote from: Harry Powell on August 03, 2011, 10:07:25 AM
I haven't seen if there's a Bayreuth thread, so forgive me for commenting here. I just listened to the broadcasts of "Tannhäuser" and "Lohengrin". One could only save the playing from the orchestra and the magnificent choir.

In "Tannhäuser" we had to endure one of the worst singers who have ever trodden Bayreuth: a certain Ms. Friede as Venus. A woman with the voice and style of a Mamma Lucia in a third-rate theatre. Lars Cleveman was the usual German tenor. Robust on the medium notes but coarse as the tessitura went higher. Michael Nagy also offers the expected throaty falsetto. One of those baritones who seem unable to deliver a full-blooded forte. To tell the truth, I interrupted the audition too much to judge Elisabeth.


In "Lohengrin" starred Florian Vogt. This a bewildering singer in whom one cannot recognise chest resonance anywhere in his range. Every note sounds in a pale, feeble timbre. It's true he sang some p and pp, but there was no mezzavoce and, as he cannot use the covered sound on the F-G fach, all the high A's were strained. A strange recast of the lyric German tenor. Annete Dasch, very appreciated by the HIP hooligans, was at pains to sing in key throughout the performance. An insignificant voice with no technique to speak about. Petra Lang is, as voice and temperament, a singer for Elsa but with an Elsa like Dasch it's logical (in accordance with Bayreuth logics) to cast her as Ortrud. He strains a lot, obviously. A so-called baritone barked his way through the role of Telramund.


How does one get to listen to broadcasts from Bayreuth? I am VERY interested.
Also, it is surprising to read what you say about Vogt. He has been my Wagnerian Prince until now...

ZB
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on August 03, 2011, 11:26:43 AM
Quote from: Harry Powell on August 03, 2011, 10:07:25 AM
I haven't seen if there's a Bayreuth thread, so forgive me for commenting here. I just listened to the broadcasts of "Tannhäuser" and "Lohengrin". One could only save the playing from the orchestra and the magnificent choir.

In "Tannhäuser" we had to endure one of the worst singers who have ever trodden Bayreuth: a certain Ms. Friede as Venus. A woman with the voice and style of a Mamma Lucia in a third-rate theatre. Lars Cleveman was the usual German tenor. Robust on the medium notes but coarse as the tessitura went higher. Michael Nagy also offers the expected throaty falsetto. One of those baritones who seem unable to deliver a full-blooded forte. To tell the truth, I interrupted the audition too much to judge Elisabeth.


In "Lohengrin" starred Florian Vogt. This a bewildering singer in whom one cannot recognise chest resonance
anywhere in his range. Every note sounds in a pale, feeble timbre. It's true he sang some p and pp, but there was no mezzavoce and, as he cannot use the covered sound on the F-G fach, all the high A's were strained. A strange recast of the lyric German tenor. Annete Dasch, very appreciated by the HIP hooligans, was at pains to sing in key throughout the performance. An insignificant voice with no technique to speak about. Petra Lang is, as voice and temperament, a singer for Elsa but with an Elsa like Dasch it's logical (in accordance with Bayreuth logics) to cast her as Ortrud. He strains a lot, obviously. A so-called baritone barked his way through the role of Telramund.




  Reviews like this make me long for those Golden years (mid-40s to mid-60s) of Wagnerian singers. What a shame.......a real shame.

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on August 03, 2011, 01:02:39 PM
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on August 03, 2011, 10:38:32 AM
How does one get to listen to broadcasts from Bayreuth? I am VERY interested.
Also, it is surprising to read what you say about Vogt. He has been my Wagnerian Prince until now...

ZB

press blurb:
QuoteFor those opera lovers who can't make it to Germany for the annual Bayreuth Festival, have no fear, Siemens Festival Night is bringing the opera into your own home. On Sunday August 14, in honor of the 100th anniversary of Bayreuth, Siemens will broadcast to the world Hans Neuenfels' production of Richard Wagner's 19th century romantic opera "Lohengrin" via live webcast.



This sensational production can be streamed live for $21.50 from 4:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. CET on Aug. 14th on www.siemens.com/festivalnight. Starting Aug. 15th it will be available on demand for the same price.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Harry Powell on August 03, 2011, 01:07:06 PM
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on August 03, 2011, 10:38:32 AM
How does one get to listen to broadcasts from Bayreuth? I am VERY interested.
Also, it is surprising to read what you say about Vogt. He has been my Wagnerian Prince until now...

ZB

Hi!

http://www.operacast.com/bayreuth_2011.htm#tannhauser

I recommend Bartók Radio.

As for Vogt, he never convinced me but now I feel he's approaching an early decline. One can spot a slight wobble in the final notes of each phrase and as I described, he has no top. He will be singing Tito in Paris en October. I won't be surprised if he sticks to lower roles in the future. Wagnerites have always insisted on the special dark color and the heroic tones that Heldentenoren need to convey the melancholy of the Wagner heroe and the high drama of his epic poems and now they praise a tenor who seems to come from a pueri cantores school.

Harry
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on August 03, 2011, 07:05:17 PM
Vogt was certainly the weakest link in the Nagano recording of Das Lied von der Erde, which was salvaged only by having an extremely good baritone.   
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on August 04, 2011, 12:56:50 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 03, 2011, 07:05:17 PM
Vogt was certainly the weakest link in the Nagano recording of Das Lied von der Erde, which was salvaged only by having an extremely good baritone.

The problem there wasn't Vogt per se, but that his part was spliced in afterwards.
Vogt, although his voice can take some getting used to, can be great in certain Wagner roles (Lohengrin, Erik, Stoltzing) because he's not a belter and he can float his silvery choir-boy tenor above the orchestra, being heard at lower decibels than his colleagues. That said, he doesn't always work for me, either.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on August 04, 2011, 03:09:01 AM
Tomorrow Rheingold in Finnish national opera  8) The ironic thing is that Siegfried, Brünnhilde and Wotan are sung by foreigners. :I
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Harry Powell on August 04, 2011, 01:31:32 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on August 04, 2011, 12:56:50 AM
The problem there wasn't Vogt per se, but that his part was spliced in afterwards.

The problem there was Vogt's singing is the worst ever made on record. One has to listen twice to believe it is not a practical joke.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on August 04, 2011, 01:59:17 PM
Quote from: Harry Powell on August 04, 2011, 01:31:32 PM
The problem there was Vogt's singing is the worst ever made on record. One has to listen twice to believe it is not a practical joke.

It wasn't that bad.  Just not enough volume and no phrasing.   Perhaps the volume balance is an engineering fault. 

For worst singing on a record meant for actual serious commercial  consumption,  I would nominate Erika Koeth vi-i-ib-b-br-rr-raa-aa-at-iiing her way through Exultate jubilate.  I can't begin to describe how awful that one is, except to say that it was very bad and broad vibrato from first note to last.

And even that was better than John Wayne "singing" Winter Wonderland, but no one pretended he was a singer. 

And then of course there was Florence Foster Jenkins.....
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on August 04, 2011, 03:15:55 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 04, 2011, 01:59:17 PM
It wasn't that bad.  Just not enough volume and no phrasing.   Perhaps the volume balance is an engineering fault. 

For worst singing on a record meant for actual serious commercial  consumption,  I would nominate Erika Koeth vi-i-ib-b-br-rr-raa-aa-at-iiing her way through Exultate jubilate.  I can't begin to describe how awful that one is, except to say that it was very bad and broad vibrato from first note to last.


Agreed. KFV in the LvdE is unmotivated and lacking in some other ways, but not atrocious.
Agreed also on E.Koeth; her Adele in the Fledermaus (the Karajan Golden Gala version) is just as bad; that wobble cannot be un-heard. Bleating, more than vibrato.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Harry Powell on August 04, 2011, 04:19:53 PM
Here's the evidence: http://open.spotify.com/track/6b6XWo3IVs7U7Az3Nps4hR

We condemn K. F. Vogt to life ban from opera houses for the crimes of crooning and phrasing like a parrot.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on August 05, 2011, 03:39:28 AM
Quote from: Harry Powell on August 04, 2011, 04:19:53 PM
Here's the evidence: http://open.spotify.com/track/6b6XWo3IVs7U7Az3Nps4hR

We condemn K. F. Flogt to life ban to opera houses for the crimes of crooning and phrasing like a parrot.

By that arrogant stance you would be banned for life from participating in English language fora for misspelling names and a ruthless disregard for grammar.

I don't mind people expressing their dismay or dislike with singers or writers et al., but this haughty way of phrasing it, pronouncing on an alleged majority's behalf the 'ban' of a singer (I've once been declared, in the same absurd style, a 'persona non grata' to the whole of Munich) really rubs me the wrong way.

I know there's a good chance you didn't mean it to sound as pompously as it does, much less that you are a pompous person (you could be ravishingly charming, for all I know), but at the very least I'd like to put this reaction to your words up for consideration.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on August 05, 2011, 12:12:32 PM
Quote from: Harry Powell on August 04, 2011, 01:31:32 PM
The problem there was Vogt's singing is the worst ever made on record. One has to listen twice to believe it is not a practical joke.

I quote myself from my review of the Nagano DLVDE.....re  Klaus Florian Vogt


'I saw that there was a 'Das Lied von der Erde'
Can I need another one? I have about 12, including two with all male singers, the Schoenberg reduction and a version accompanied by piano. However, this was a version conducted by Nagano and his Mahler 8th is a surprise favourite of mine. So, when it arrived, I had high hopes. I had not read any reviews of this disc before I heard it.

In sum, I am very glad it cost me as little as it did. The tenor, Klaus Florian Vogt is new to me. It is a sweet and plangent voice, but basically in that first song, a boy was sent in to do a man's job and he has to gentle his way to negotiate round some of it, sounding tremulous on occasion. I want a heroic sound to pit against that wall of sound. I just cannot understand why this singer is attempting this music. And yet, and yet....he is a Wagner singer with Lohengrin and Parsifal in his repertoire!

I was so taken aback by what I was hearing that I listened again through headphones and here the detail he puts into the songs is much clearer. He never barks or shouts, but he sounds under pressure, in the wrong way. It is a poetic approach, though why does a Wagner tenor sound taxed at the top of this third song and occasionally under the note? I wonder how much help he needed from the engineers?'

I thought he was pretty appalling and I can't think I would ever deliberately encounter him again.

Mike

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on August 06, 2011, 08:49:46 AM
Quote from: knight66 on August 05, 2011, 12:12:32 PM
I quote myself from my review of the Nagano DLVDE.....re  Klaus Florian Vogt
. I want a heroic sound to pit against that wall of sound. I just cannot understand why this singer is attempting this music. And yet, and yet....he is a Wagner singer with Lohengrin and Parsifal in his repertoire!

I was so taken aback by what I was hearing that I listened again through headphones and here the detail he puts into the songs is much clearer. He never barks or shouts, but he sounds under pressure, in the wrong way. It is a poetic approach, though why does a Wagner tenor sound taxed at the top of this third song and occasionally under the note? I wonder how much help he needed from the engineers?'

I thought he was pretty appalling and I can't think I would ever deliberately encounter him again.


1.) He had help from the engineers (he was spliced in)
2.) It isn't ultimately a good effort
3.) His voice is NOT one that everyone loves
4.) He *can* sing above (!) a Wagnerian orchestra at true piano
5.) It works stupendously in some productions
6.) He is not, will never be, a power-tenor... but he's got the range and ability to attack these roles from a different angle.

Very interesting singer, trust me... no reason to judge him only by this DLE. Not saying you'll necessarily like him... but that there is objective merit to what he does.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on August 06, 2011, 08:53:37 AM
I don't discount what you say; but really I would like to hear him in a different repertoire; Bach, Schubert, Brahms. I wonder if I might 'get' him then.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Harry Powell on August 06, 2011, 04:10:58 PM
I'd like to hear him once he learnt to use chest resonance. Good review, Mike. A friend of mine told me: "You have to listen to this. You'll think a third-rate countertenor from a Christie's Haendel set has slipped into the recording."
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on August 06, 2011, 05:52:10 PM
KFV is the tenor on Paavo Jarvi's Beethoven 9.  While I wouldn't call his singing there superb,  there's nothing problematic about him in that performance.  (That's the only other recording in which I have him.)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: zamyrabyrd on August 06, 2011, 07:55:22 PM
I saw most of the film of Lohengrin with Vogt. He seems more than adequate to me. One third of the viewers here didn't like him.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcSq3R6PzOg

Maybe I don't know the role enough but In fernem Land seems anyway to demand a more narrative approach than flowing aria. I can't imagine him though in Lied von der Erde, at least not just yet...

Meanwhile, I found the famous Melchior who is quite matter of fact here, even dry:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9wwA5ldjM8&NR=1

Jonas Kaufmann is interesting for his darker tones and also a wider range of expression:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fKr_BuXu3w&NR=1

ZB
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Harry Powell on August 07, 2011, 01:15:56 PM
When Vogt sang Paul ("Das tote Stadt") in Madrid some months ago I can tell you there was a mixed reaction from the public. Of course his voice carried well through the theatre (far better than Torsten Kerl's, according to friends who listened to both) but being heard is the first requisite, the essential thing is how.

A for the Lohengrin racconto, I'd recommend the audition of Pertile, Fleta and Völker. They complied with the narrative character of the piece while achieving a "heavenly" flowing legato and ethereal mezzavoce.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on August 07, 2011, 01:22:03 PM
The Sunday Times here today gives a big thumbs up to a new Parsifal with Vogt. I thought therefore I was going to read some favourable comment about him. But he was perceived as the only blot on the landscape. I quote...

'I can't take Vogt's bantemweight Parsifal seriously. His light boyish timbre is fine for the pure fool in Act 1. But he retains the same childlike innocent throughout.'

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Harry Powell on August 07, 2011, 01:30:27 PM
I remember very well an afternoon with friends and a broadcast of Parsifal in which he played the title role. When he sang "Du weisst, wo du mich wiederfinden kannst!" we burst into an irrepressible laughter.

Harry.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on August 07, 2011, 01:50:57 PM
Who says Wagner couldn't manage comedy?

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on August 09, 2011, 01:06:08 AM
Ring tickets: 360 euro.
Seeing Fasolt and Fafner doing high fife: Priceless!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kaergaard on August 14, 2011, 10:26:39 AM
Anybody familiar with the new Tannhäuser, directed by Kasper Holten? He is the young genius who gave us the Copenhagen Ring with Brünnhilde chosing to give birth to a little Siegfriend instead jumping into the fire.

Holten turns the singer Tannhäuser into a composer, writer, wearing a beret and everybody in late eighteen hundred costumes. During the overture we get entertained with a pantomime of the mature Elisabeth and their teenage son welcoming father home again. No, no bare-breasted or bare-bottomed flower maids and Venus is wearing a business suite! Stig Andersen is again an outstanding tenor from beginning to end, plus being the great actor he has been as Siegfried.

Tannhäuser was the Wagner opera at the bottom of my list, just a tad above Parsifal, but this one is up quite a number of notches, a keeper!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on September 02, 2011, 08:49:00 PM
Just a head's up.  If anyone doesn't have, but wants, the Sinopoli Tannhauser with Domingo, it's on sale this weekend at Arkivmusic for $19.99.  And if you order two other items from their clearance list, you get free shipping in honor of Labor Day.  That's through Monday midnight US EDT.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 09, 2011, 01:58:15 AM
Quote from: Isolde on April 07, 2007, 08:09:57 PM

6 Favorite Operas (because I just couldn't do 5!):

Tristan & Isolde
Siegfried
Der Fliegende Hollander
Die Walkure
Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg
Tannhauser


6 Favorite Single Pieces (even harder):

Der Fliegende Hollander - Overture
Tristan & Isolde - Prelude & Liebestod
Die Meistersinger - Prelude to Act III
Siegfried - Idyll
Tannhauser - Overture




I'm an extreme fan of Richard Wagner too, he is definitely my favourite composer! I started my wagnerite journey listening to "Das Rheingold" (Karajan/Berlin Phil/DG), and I liked it so much that I wanted to continue listening to Wagner more and more, till collecting all his operas.
Almost all the Wagner CDs I have are conducted by Karajan, apart from Tristan (Furtwängler) and Tannhäuser (Solti).

The operas you chose as your favourites are really outstanding, but I'm a little surprised there's not "Götterdämmerung" in the list; I think it's one of the most beautiful works ever composed, and Wagner's music is in its most completest form there: great harmonies and orchestration, elaborate use of leitmotifs and rich cromatism.

My 6 favourite operas could be:
Götterdämmerung
Siegfried
Das Rheingold
Tristan und Isolde
Der Fliegende Holländer
Parsifal

Have you got all Wagner's operas? Maybe even the less famous ones, Die Feen, Das Liebesverbot and Rienzi?

Ilaria
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 09, 2011, 04:59:38 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on September 09, 2011, 01:58:15 AM
Have you got all Wagner's operas? Maybe even the less famous ones, Die Feen, Das Liebesverbot and Rienzi?

You may not get an answer from her. Isolde (who now goes by Senta) doesn't visit the forum much these days (last active in April). But I own all the operas/music dramas except Die Feen. My six favorites:

Lohengrin
Tristan
Das Rheingold
Die Walküre
Götterdämmerung
Parsifal

Sarge


Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brahmsian on September 09, 2011, 06:09:46 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 09, 2011, 04:59:38 AM
You may not get an answer from her. Isolde (who now goes by Senta) doesn't visit the forum much these days (last active in April). But I own all the operas/music dramas except Die Feen. My six favorites:

Lohengrin
Tristan
Das Rheingold
Die Walküre
Götterdämmerung
Parsifal

Sarge

That's it!  I'm getting my own machine gun, since you did you include Siegfried in your top 6!   ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 09, 2011, 06:11:33 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 09, 2011, 04:59:38 AM
You may not get an answer from her. Isolde (who now goes by Senta) doesn't visit the forum much these days (last active in April). But I own all the operas/music dramas except Die Feen. My six favorites:

Lohengrin
Tristan
Das Rheingold
Die Walküre
Götterdämmerung
Parsifal

Sarge

Thanks for warning me Sarge :) I had to make it clear that my question wasn't adressed just Isolde, everyone could answer.

Yes, Die Feen is rather difficult to find, I haven't got it either, apart from the ouverture; I know Sawallisch was used to record Wagner's early works.

Great list of favourite operas!

Ilaria

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 09, 2011, 06:18:24 AM
Hi, Ilaria! I think my absolute favorites are


Tristan
Götterdämmerung
Parsifal


with Rheingold, Walküre, Meistersinger and Third Act Siegfried not far behind.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on September 09, 2011, 06:29:48 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on September 09, 2011, 06:11:33 AM
Yes, Die Feen is rather difficult to find . . . .

There must be reasons . . . .

; )
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 09, 2011, 06:33:41 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 09, 2011, 06:09:46 AM
That's it!  I'm getting my own machine gun, since you did you include Siegfried in your top 6!   ;)

I'll have to put on my kevlar helmet and vest  ;D

Actually there's not a Wagner opera I dislike (although they won't all fit in a top 6). I'm crazy about Rienzi too. A true Wagnerite here  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on September 09, 2011, 06:37:29 AM
Tristan and Parsifal certainly earn Wagner musical immorality. No! Immortality!

And one of these days, I'm going to give Götterdämmerung a proper new shake . . . .
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on September 09, 2011, 07:04:47 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 09, 2011, 06:37:29 AM
Tristan and Parsifal certainly earn Wagner musical immorality. No! Immortality!

And one of these days, I'm going to give Götterdämmerung a proper new shake . . . .


  A Freudian slip I'm sure..........LOL!

  PS: Good luck with Gotterdammerung, it can be quite.............GLORIOUSLY taxing  ;)

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 09, 2011, 07:15:09 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 09, 2011, 06:18:24 AM
Hi, Ilaria! I think my absolute favorites are


Tristan
Götterdämmerung
Parsifal


with Rheingold, Walküre, Meistersinger and Third Act Siegfried not far behind.

Hi Johan! Haha, my absolute favorites could be very close to yours:

Tristan
Götterdämmerung
Siegfried

with Das Rheingold, Die Walküre, Parsifal, Meistersinger, Tannhauser, Lohengrin and Der Fliegende Hollander, just one little step behind.  :)

Die Feen, Das Liebesverbot and Rienzi are very good, but unfortunately they're not on the same level with the rest of Wagner's operas. I don't know if you've ever listened to them, anyway what do you think about those early works?

Ilaria

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 09, 2011, 07:20:06 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on September 09, 2011, 07:15:09 AM
Die Feen, Das Liebesverbot and Rienzi are very good, but unfortunately they're not on the same level with the rest of Wagner's operas. I don't know if you've ever listened to them, anyway what do you think about those early works?


I'm afraid I've always been a very obedient Wagnerian -  for the Meister the canon started with the Holländer, and so it has done for me. I know the overtures to Feen and Liebesverbot, and that's it. Of the so-called 'romantic' operas Tannhäuser is my favourite, though Wagner himself thought he owed the world a better version...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on September 09, 2011, 07:33:03 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 09, 2011, 07:20:06 AM

I'm afraid I've always been a very obedient Wagnerian -  for the Meister the canon started with the Holländer, and so it has done for me. I know the overtures to Feen and Liebesverbot, and that's it. Of the so-called 'romantic' operas Tannhäuser is my favourite, though Wagner himself thought he owed the world a better version...

  Oh I am more than happy with the revised version of Tannhausser that Wagner introduced in Paris.  Too bad the audiences in Paris weren't  :(. From what I have read  politics played a role in their dissatisfaction and Wagner's response was muted, surprisingly.  But then again I doubt he had much respect for the French opera scene altogether.

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 09, 2011, 08:04:49 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on September 09, 2011, 07:33:03 AM
  Oh I am more than happy with the revised version of Tannhausser that Wagner introduced in Paris.  Too bad the audiences in Paris weren't  :( . From what I have read  politics played a role in their dissatisfaction and Wagner's response was muted, surprisingly.  But then again I doubt he had much respect for the French opera scene altogether.

  marvin


Wagner wrote the Bacchanale (terrific piece!) for his Paris audience specially. Unfortunately he put it in the 1st Act (of course), forgetting that the members of the Jockey Club always arrived after their meal to ogle the ballet girls in the 2nd Act... And so they whipped out their whistles in indignation and - Tannhäuser fell through... Wagner was always dissatisfied with the work. I think it marks a moment of essential transition. Lohengrin is a big step ahead. Rheingold - a quantum leap.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 09, 2011, 09:33:32 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 09, 2011, 07:20:06 AM

I'm afraid I've always been a very obedient Wagnerian -  for the Meister the canon started with the Holländer, and so it has done for me. I know the overtures to Feen and Liebesverbot, and that's it. Of the so-called 'romantic' operas Tannhäuser is my favourite, though Wagner himself thought he owed the world a better version...

Sure, Wagner didn't consider those operas worthy of being performed in Bayreuth, and he was certainly right; though it's interesting to listen to the early Wagner, noticing how his style of composition developed. 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on September 09, 2011, 10:21:06 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on September 09, 2011, 09:33:32 AM
Sure, Wagner didn't consider those operas worthy of being performed in Bayreuth, and he was certainly right; though it's interesting to listen to the early Wagner, noticing how his style of composition developed. 

I like Holländer for that reason.

And, I might as well face it: because of its brevity, sure
; )
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 09, 2011, 10:37:47 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 09, 2011, 10:21:06 AM
I like Holländer for that reason.

And, I might as well face it: because of its brevity, sure
; )


Der fliegende Holländer is the first opera in the Wagnerian canon, Karl. The early works which Wagner dismissed are Die Feen, Das Liebesverbot and Rienzi - these are therefore never played in Bayreuth.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 09, 2011, 10:43:05 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 09, 2011, 10:21:06 AM
I like Holländer for that reason.

And, I might as well face it: because of its brevity, sure
; )

I don't usually care about the lenght, I let myself go to the beauty of music  ;)

But though it's a right point of view: if an opera was too long, it would become too heavy to listen; and I think this doesn't count just for opera, but for music in general.
Being able to express everything you feel with not much lenght and in a fine way can be a great quality.

Ilaria
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: karlhenning on September 09, 2011, 10:43:44 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 09, 2011, 10:37:47 AM

Der fliegende Holländer is the first opera in the Wagnerian canon, Karl. The early works which Wagner dismissed are Die Feen, Das Liebesverbot and Rienzi - these are therefore never played in Bayreuth.

Ho capito, Johan. I do enjoy the "musical seams" in Holländer,all the same.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on September 09, 2011, 10:57:50 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 09, 2011, 10:37:47 AM

Der fliegende Holländer is the first opera in the Wagnerian canon, Karl. The early works which Wagner dismissed are Die Feen, Das Liebesverbot and Rienzi - these are therefore never played in Bayreuth.
never played at the Festspielhaus, to be precise.

I remember that either Die Feen or Das Liebesverbot, or possibly both, were performed in the 1980s at least once in the original 18th century theater (the Margravin's theater,  I think it's called) which was Bayreuth's main theater before Wagner--given as sort of ancillary productions or curiousities during the main production runs.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 09, 2011, 11:05:53 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 09, 2011, 10:57:50 AM
never played at the Festspielhaus, to be precise.

I remember that either Die Feen or Das Liebesverbot, or possibly both, were performed in the 1980s at least once in the original 18th century theater (the Margravin's theater,  I think it's called) which was Bayreuth's main theater before Wagner--given as sort of ancillary productions or curiousities during the main production runs.


Thanks for the correction, my dear Beckmesser!  ;D  But - did you, apart from hearing non-canonical Wagner in the 'Markgräfliches Opernhaus', the Margravial Opera House, actually attend a 'real' Wagner opera at the Festspielhaus?!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on September 09, 2011, 07:32:34 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 09, 2011, 11:05:53 AM

Thanks for the correction, my dear Beckmesser!  ;D  But - did you, apart from hearing non-canonical Wagner in the 'Markgräfliches Opernhaus', the Margravial Opera House, actually attend a 'real' Wagner opera at the Festspielhaus?!

No, no!  I'm sorry for any confusion.  I've never been to Germany, much less to Bayreuth.
My information comes from being an avid reader of Opera News back in my youthful days.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 09, 2011, 11:34:42 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 09, 2011, 07:32:34 PM
No, no!  I'm sorry for any confusion.  I've never been to Germany, much less to Bayreuth.
My information comes from being an avid reader of Opera News back in my youthful days.


Ach so... We both have our Wagnerian Hajj still before us, then!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Renfield on September 10, 2011, 02:04:04 PM
For some reason, Siegfried's never sat too well with me (so far).

It's dark, and character-driven, and undoubtedly well-crafted, but I always find myself preferring Die Walküre, among the three operas that I am happy to heretically consider [vital, and musically substantial] preludes to Götterdämmerung! 8)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on September 15, 2011, 11:19:27 PM
Not sure if I have mentioned it yet, but Siegfried is my personal favorite. Waldweben is the most beautiful segment Wagner ever wrote IMO. That first bird call with oboe and flute is divine! And almost all of my favorite characters appear in this opera. The Ring operas have always been my favorites, but no. 5. spot has changed several times over the years between Parsifal, Tristan, Meistersinger and fliegende Holländer.

Current top 6:

Siegfried
Das Rheingold
Götterdämmerung
Die Walküre
Parsifal
Tristan
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Harry Powell on September 18, 2011, 02:23:44 PM
I didn't find a thread for jokes so I'll tell you here that Domingo is to debut as Holländer:

http://www.larena.it/stories/Cultura_e_Spettacoli/285604_il_maestro_diriger_wagner_in_arena_con_placido_domingo/

This man's gone crazy. As for Barenboim, it's a disappointment to see he's ready to show off in this botch.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: eyeresist on September 18, 2011, 06:28:21 PM
Yeah, who would be stupid enough to watch an opera featuring Domingo and Barenboim?  ::)  ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Harry Powell on September 19, 2011, 01:56:14 AM
Of course, people believing two big names are enogh to make an old tenor sound like a Bassbariton won't miss the show.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Bill H. on September 23, 2011, 11:28:16 AM
Quote from: Renfield on September 10, 2011, 02:04:04 PM
For some reason, Siegfried's never sat too well with me (so far).

It's dark, and character-driven, and undoubtedly well-crafted, but I always find myself preferring Die Walküre, among the three operas that I am happy to heretically consider [vital, and musically substantial] preludes to Götterdämmerung! 8)

I have come to believe that Siegfried is the ultimate "guys" opera....think about it--

--Playing with sharp objects, and others that make lots of noise
--Swagger
--Dealing with 'father' issues
--Running around in a loincloth and slaying monsters (and dwarfs)
--Nobody like a Fricka telling you what to do,
--and in the end, you still wind up with the Babe! (so what if technically she's your aunt)

What's not to like? :D




Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on September 23, 2011, 11:51:25 AM
The numb backside at the end of it.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Renfield on September 23, 2011, 04:04:04 PM
Quote from: Bill H. on September 23, 2011, 11:28:16 AM
I have come to believe that Siegfried is the ultimate "guys" opera....think about it--

--Playing with sharp objects, and others that make lots of noise
--Swagger
--Dealing with 'father' issues
--Running around in a loincloth and slaying monsters (and dwarfs)
--Nobody like a Fricka telling you what to do,
--and in the end, you still wind up with the Babe! (so what if technically she's your aunt)

What's not to like? :D

Frankly, I'd be more amenable to this list's merits if Siegfried didn't manage to be such a [kitten] over it all, even while doing the assorted slaying and incest. And lest any Wagnerians suffer heart attacks, I mean 'were I to view Siegfried as a guy-oriented romp'.


I do realise there's a reason he's vulnerable, and in fact any enjoyment I get out of Siegfried largely revolves around the inherent flaws of Siegfried as a character that Wagner is - surely - not blind to, and illustrates with all the swagger (or so I tell myself).

Otherwise, give me von Hofmannsthal psychodrama any day, over Siegfried. >:D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: BMW on October 12, 2011, 02:08:35 PM
!!!

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Warner%2BClassics/2564666834
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on October 13, 2011, 02:57:46 AM
Quote from: BMW on October 12, 2011, 02:08:35 PM
!!!

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Warner%2BClassics/2564666834

This is irritating considering that I spent £60 on Barenboim's Ring alone  >:( >:(!  and......and Barenboim's Parsifal is exceptional from what I have read and very expensive (over £50 new).  The other music dramas I could have done without. Seeing as how I do not need libretti, this box set is proving MOST irritating!!!

  marvin     

  Edit: Correction I meant to say Barenboim's Parsifal!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bigshot on October 13, 2011, 09:36:19 AM
That's a phenominal deal. I already have 3/4s of it though. Barenboim's Ring has been discounted at Berkeshire Record Outlet for a long time now. Perhaps the other operas will show up there too.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Coopmv on October 13, 2011, 04:46:05 PM
Quote from: bigshot on October 13, 2011, 09:36:19 AM
That's a phenominal deal. I already have 3/4s of it though. Barenboim's Ring has been discounted at Berkeshire Record Outlet for a long time now. Perhaps the other operas will show up there too.

Any CD's that are available at BRO at big discount probably have not been selling well ...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wendell_E on October 15, 2011, 03:08:38 AM
Speaking of Barenboim's Wagner, I see Kultur's releasing a new DVD transfer of his Bayreuth Ring, and Archivmusic.com's got it on sale for just $59.99.  http://www.arkivmusic.com/albumpage/613193-E881-5
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on October 15, 2011, 01:20:37 PM
Quote from: Wendell_E on October 15, 2011, 03:08:38 AM
Speaking of Barenboim's Wagner, I see Kultur's releasing a new DVD transfer of his Bayreuth Ring, and Archivmusic.com's got it on sale for just $59.99.  http://www.arkivmusic.com/albumpage/613193-E881-5

Prestoclassical has a better price for the original Warner release
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Warner%2BClassics/2564688804
Including shipping and handling, works out to about $45.00 at the current rate.

Not that I'm hurrying off to get either the CD boxset or the DVD set.   I still have half of the Bohm Bayreuth Ring and everything except Rheingold on the Levine/Met DVD set to listen/watch.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bigshot on October 22, 2011, 09:04:35 AM
I have enjoyed Barenboim's Ring on CD, but I never made it through the DVDs. The darkness, laser beams and fog machines made it hard to see the opera. Too much heavy metal concert.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Josquin des Prez on October 22, 2011, 10:05:12 AM
Quote from: bigshot on October 22, 2011, 09:04:35 AM
I have enjoyed Barenboim's Ring on CD, but I never made it through the DVDs. The darkness, laser beams and fog machines made it hard to see the opera. Too much heavy metal concert.

I own very few operas on DVD precisely for that reason. Too much degenerate eurotrash or stupid cartoonist stuff like the one you just described. Most of the times i just let my imagination do the work.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on October 23, 2011, 12:47:28 AM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on October 22, 2011, 10:05:12 AM
I own very few operas on DVD precisely for that reason. Too much degenerate eurotrash or stupid cartoonist stuff like the one you just described. Most of the times i just let my imagination do the work.

  I couldn't agree more with you. The only DVD Ring cycle that I can tolerate is the MET Levine Ring, which is not without its problems. All other productions are as you said, eurotrash avant garde trash! Opera companies spend a fortune on experimental productions with limited success.  It seems that these experimental attempts take away or at least distract the listener from truly immersing him/herself in Wagner's drama. 

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Guido on October 23, 2011, 05:56:33 PM
Quote from: Harry Powell on September 18, 2011, 02:23:44 PM
I didn't find a thread for jokes so I'll tell you here that Domingo is to debut as Holländer:

http://www.larena.it/stories/Cultura_e_Spettacoli/285604_il_maestro_diriger_wagner_in_arena_con_placido_domingo/

This man's gone crazy. As for Barenboim, it's a disappointment to see he's ready to show off in this botch.

Haha this is just mental. Mental! Why this role? At 72? in the blazing heat of an arena. He's out of control.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bigshot on October 23, 2011, 08:19:29 PM
Didn't Jack LaLayne drag a boat with his teeth through San Francisco harbor when he was 90?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 23, 2011, 09:47:28 PM
Quote from: bigshot on October 23, 2011, 08:19:29 PM
Didn't Jack LaLayne drag a boat with his teeth through San Francisco harbor when he was 90?

Some powerful dentures, there... :)


Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Rinaldo on November 06, 2011, 06:31:58 AM
Any thoughts on yesterday's Siegfried in the MET? I was thoroughly disappointed with the opera and I'd like to find out if the performance might be to blame..

I've enjoyed Die Walküre immensely but this, to my ears, was 5+ hours of.. nothing.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Mirror Image on November 06, 2011, 07:44:15 AM
Quote from: Rinaldo on November 06, 2011, 06:31:58 AM
Any thoughts on yesterday's Siegfried in the MET? I was thoroughly disappointed with the opera and I'd like to find out if the performance might be to blame..

I've enjoyed Die Walküre immensely but this, to my ears, was 5+ hours of.. nothing.

I never have liked Siegfried. Doesn't matter how lively or passionate the interpretation of the music actually is, I think this is the only low point in the Ring.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on November 06, 2011, 08:09:49 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 06, 2011, 07:44:15 AM
I never have liked Siegfried. Doesn't matter how lively or passionate the interpretation of the music actually is, I think this is the only low point in the Ring.

Why the low? :o

I think Siegfried is maybe the best operas comprised in the Ring Cycle, along with Götterdämmerung; it's so passionate, poetic and overwhelming! The Finale is the peak of vital love, so expressive :)





Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brahmsian on November 06, 2011, 09:25:57 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on November 06, 2011, 08:09:49 AM
Why the low? :o

I think Siegfried is maybe the best operas comprised in the Ring Cycle, along with Götterdämmerung; it's so passionate, poetic and overwhelming! The Finale is the peak of vital love, so expressive :)

I agree with you, Ilaria.  Siegfried is my personal favourite of the 4 Ring operas, but I do know I'm more in the minority.  Siegfried is probably considered overall the least popular or favourite overall, among the Ring operas.  I could be wrong, but I think that is generally the case.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on November 06, 2011, 09:37:00 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on November 06, 2011, 09:25:57 AM
I agree with you, Ilaria.  Siegfried is my personal favourite of the 4 Ring operas, but I do know I'm more in the minority.  Siegfried is probably considered overall the least popular or favourite overall, among the Ring operas.  I could be wrong, but I think that is generally the case.

Yes, that's right Ray; generally Das Rheingold, Die Walküre and Götterdämmerung include more famous pieces.....
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on November 06, 2011, 10:53:29 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on November 06, 2011, 09:25:57 AM
I agree with you, Ilaria.  Siegfried is my personal favourite of the 4 Ring operas, but I do know I'm more in the minority.  Siegfried is probably considered overall the least popular or favourite overall, among the Ring operas.  I could be wrong, but I think that is generally the case.
I like it best, too, Ray...at least as a drama.  What's not to like:  dwarf bowling, bear baiting, riddles, patricide, Puff the magic dragon, and the fiery rescue of a sleeping beauty! Trim it by an hour and get some babes in the first two acts (maybe Megan Fox?) and you might have a real winner!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bigshot on November 06, 2011, 11:01:34 AM
Siegfried is the one of the best parts of the Goodall Ring because the first act is so dependent on understanding what's being said. The back and forth between Mime and Siegfried and the riddling with The Wanderer are really boring if you don't speak the language. There's a great deal of humor in it- Sieggie chasing the bear around, etc.- that gets ignored in a lot of stagings too.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: JerryS on November 06, 2011, 11:09:29 AM
Quote from: Rinaldo on November 06, 2011, 06:31:58 AM
Any thoughts on yesterday's Siegfried in the MET? I was thoroughly disappointed with the opera and I'd like to find out if the performance might be to blame..

I've enjoyed Die Walküre immensely but this, to my ears, was 5+ hours of.. nothing.

The Met performance (via Live HD) left me with a radically different impression. I've seen three video productions of the Ring (Levine, Valencia, and Copenhagen). The Met production was the first time I found the opera enthralling from first note to last. The orchestra sound was stupendous, although a little too closely miked and the lower strings seemed exaggerated. The mostly darkened or subdued set enhanced the mythic dimension of the drama. I didn't find the multi-plank machine interfered as it did in the Walkure production.

Jay Hunter Morris was a revelation as Siegfried. His voice lacks the power of a true heldentenor, but I didn't care. Here, for once, is a tenor who looks the part, convincingly conveys the wonder and naivete of the character, and sings with incredible beauty and security.

I previously considered Siegfried my least favorite of the Ring operas. I'm going to have to reconsider that ranking. I honestly would have sat through this opera a second time. That's saying a lot!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on November 06, 2011, 11:39:31 AM
Quote from: vivolin on November 06, 2011, 11:09:29 AM
The Met performance (via Live HD) left me with a radically different impression. I've seen three video productions of the Ring (Levine, Valencia, and Copenhagen). The Met production was the first time I found the opera enthralling from first note to last. The orchestra sound was stupendous, although a little too closely miked and the lower strings seemed exaggerated. The mostly darkened or subdued set enhanced the mythic dimension of the drama. I didn't find the multi-plank machine interfered as it did in the Walkure production.

Jay Hunter Morris was a revelation as Siegfried. His voice lacks the power of a true heldentenor, but I didn't care. Here, for once, is a tenor who looks the part, convincingly conveys the wonder and naivete of the character, and sings with incredible beauty and security.

I previously considered Siegfried my least favorite of the Ring operas. I'm going to have to reconsider that ranking. I honestly would have sat through this opera a second time. That's saying a lot!
Ack!  Oh sh*t!  That was yesterday and we missed it--rats!  Gotta make sure to catch the encore showing.  This cycle's been too good to miss--so good that I'll probably buy it when it gets released on disc.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: JerryS on November 06, 2011, 12:01:01 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on November 06, 2011, 11:39:31 AM
Ack!  Oh sh*t!  That was yesterday and we missed it--rats!  Gotta make sure to catch the encore showing.  This cycle's been too good to miss--so good that I'll probably buy it when it gets released on disc.
By all means catch the encore (I may do that myself)! And mark your calendar for Gotterdammerung on February 11 at 12:00 noon ET. It will be interesting to see how Morris handles the acting demands of the final opera.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wendell_E on November 07, 2011, 03:54:50 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on November 06, 2011, 11:39:31 AM
Gotta make sure to catch the encore showing.  This cycle's been too good to miss--so good that I'll probably buy it when it gets released on disc.

Quote from: vivolin on November 06, 2011, 12:01:01 PM
By all means catch the encore (I may do that myself)! And mark your calendar for Gotterdammerung on February 11 at 12:00 noon ET. It will be interesting to see how Morris handles the acting demands of the final opera.

Currently, neither Siegfried nor Götterdämmerung are scheduled to be encored.  All of the other HD operas this are being encored, as were all of the ones last season, including Rheingold and Walküre.  I've not read any official reason for this, but I'm guessing (hoping) that they're going to wait for the Summer Encore series, and do the entire cycle over a four of five day period.  Say Thursday through Sunday, which would allow for earlier start times for the last two operas.

I wonder how Levine's problems will affect the possiblilty of DVD release.  A Ring split between two conducters won't appeal to some.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Mirror Image on November 07, 2011, 05:03:03 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on November 06, 2011, 08:09:49 AM
Why the low? :o

I think Siegfried is maybe the best operas comprised in the Ring Cycle, along with Götterdämmerung; it's so passionate, poetic and overwhelming! The Finale is the peak of vital love, so expressive :)

As a lover of the orchestra, it seems to me that the orchestra took a backseat in Siegfried, which, in turn, disappointed me.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on November 24, 2011, 03:24:11 PM
Quote from: Wendell_E on November 07, 2011, 03:54:50 AM
I wonder how Levine's problems will affect the possiblilty of DVD release.

He's got to get some sense, and own up that when a doctor tells him he needs to rest after certain procedures, he bloody well needs to rest. He's got to get over this idea that the musical world will somehow fall to pieces if he takes time off for a medical rest.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on November 24, 2011, 03:29:27 PM
Here's a fun story I bring back from Wooster:

I had known long since that my dear composition instructor, Jack Gallagher, back before he came to teach at Wooster, worked at a Sam Goody's.  There he earned minimum wage, of course, which at the time he recalls being something like $2.10/hr.  So for a week of full-time work he brought home about $80.  The benefit of a composer working at a record shop is the employee discount, of course. So Jack remembers the week that he bought the Solti Ring as a box of LPs; that week, he took home $23 and the Ring.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on February 27, 2012, 06:24:58 AM

Wagner can be better in English than in German:

Wagner on Record – The Mastersingers


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B001ANZQZU.01.L.jpg)

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/02/wagner-on-record-mastersingers.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/02/wagner-on-record-mastersingers.html)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on February 27, 2012, 08:25:00 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 27, 2012, 06:24:58 AM
Wagner can be better in English than in German:

It can be an interesting experiment, althought Wagner is only in German for me. :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on February 28, 2012, 09:58:56 AM

Wagner on DVD – Die Meistersinger


Holy German Art: Katharina Wagner's Meistersinger

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0046HCOOS.L.jpg)

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/02/holy-german-art-katharina-wagners.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/02/holy-german-art-katharina-wagners.html)

Quote
Lustily booed at its 2007 premiere in Bayreuth, Katharina Wagner's production of Die Meistersinger
gave instant rise to polemics and controversy. Very aptly Bayreuthean, that. Detractors find it is, at
best, a great cast wasted on an absurd production. It's not an absurd production, though. It's just
too darn clever and with many superficial distractions that torpedo the traditional expectations which,
in this work more than any Wagner opera, are very much implanted in audiences.

This was Katharina's 'trial shot' before taking over Bayreuth with her elder step-sister. It might have
been accidentally ingenious, but more likely it was a brilliant statement, folded inside the Meistersinger-
story with the finesse of an expert origamist. At the very least it's jolly good theater, now viewable
on the Opus Arte DVD of the 2008 performance...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on March 10, 2012, 01:13:12 AM
Saturday 3 March 2012
Symphony Hall, Birmingham

Andris Nelsons  conductor
Stephen Gould  Tristan
Lioba Braun  Isolde
Christianne Stotijn  Brangäne
Brett Polegato  Kurwenal
Matthew Best  King Marke
Ben Johnson  Melot / Shepherd
Benedict Nelson  Sailor / Helmsman
Men of the CBSO Chorus 

Concert performance:

For me Andris Nelsons is a phenomenon. He so clearly contradicts the pessimistic forecasts of that crapulous critic Norman Lebrecht, who claimed a decade ago that the golden age of conductors was well and truly over. There are quite a number of still young but exciting conductors who are confounding this idea; Nelsons not just among them, but pretty much in the lead.

I have seen him four times now and on each occasion you can sense an audience that anticipates something out of the ordinary and, so far, that is what he has delivered. Although only 30 or so he has accumulated quite a notch of opera performances. He comes from Riga and lead a lot of opera productions in that city.

Right from the start there was a real committed concentration from both sides of the podium. Often as I have heard that famous prelude; he nevertheless conjured up sounds in the middle of it I have never heard before. I looked at the organ consol to check the organ was not being played. He pulled out an extraordinary sound like a massive organ surging through part of the prelude. It was neither fast nor slow, no eccentricity; but it packed a powerful punch. That can lead to anticlimax in what follows, but not here.

For me the star singer was Christianne Stotijn. That is not to suggest shortcomings elsewhere; but she is really exceptional with an even rich tone top to bottom, platform presence and terrific breath control. I looked forward to her every contribution and she ensured that her character was heard as a determined passionate woman, no mere sidekick. The Isolde was head and shoulders shorter, but her voice was a good size and she really used the words. One flat note all night and other than that, strong firm tone, long lines and first rate phrasing. Her curse was the highlight one hopes for and here, as in many places, the conductor and singers produced shivers up the spine or gooseflesh.

The Tristan I had never heard before. Stephen Gould: he was a biffer to look at, but is an imposing height and not withstanding his constant putting on and taking off spectacles; he somehow conveyed that hero and that fallen man of honour. His voice is very large, but subtly used and like the others; he sounded as fresh at the end as he did at the start of the opera. One aspect of the concert layout: he was one side of the conductor and Isolde the other: their many longing looks and the communication they attempted during the duet took place across the conductor's moving arms.

The only place where I would like Nelsons to rethink is that crucial suspended moment where the protagonists drink the love potion and then wait. Furtwangler imbues this with a mystical element of timelessness. Nelsons I felt underplayed it. Other than that, I have nothing negative to suggest; the cumulative effect across the three acts really was overwhelming. The orchestra shone and outshon itself. The cor angles in Act three seemed to come from another world, distanced and utterly magical, the audience entranced and still.

Act Two had the traditional cuts; the passionate rush and the atmosphere of night were there in spades and the singing was terrific. Act Three; the orchestra walked into a buzzing audience, a feeling of a high. Then with suddenness we were tipped into that grief laden world, that dream scape of pain, regret, hope and despair. Instantly we were transported to the heart of it as though a switch had been thrown. 

I have to mention the King Marke of Matthew Best: what a voice! He has the technique of singing softly and projecting clearly with a beautiful dark voice. It was a heartbreaking performance, full of compassion and puzzlement at how betrayal had crept into the heart of his closest friend, how he found himself with the best of intentions in a world of ashes.

In the concert circumstances where there is no distraction of the production and the singers get the help of standing in front of the orchestra and can refer to their scores, the concentration seems complete and the conditions for an opera of the mind are at their best. It was all so exciting that I wanted a fourth act. Not something I normally think of at the end of a Wagner opera. I like my Tristan und Isolde to act like a narcotic and it did here; my head was filled with the music for days afterwards.

Mike

Here is something exceptional from the Mezzo Christianne Stotijn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMnXlgrr_YI





Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 03, 2012, 02:25:32 AM
Thought this would be an appropriate time to enter the Wagner thread!

Just about the get started.... (as you can see, I am prepared, with a whole box of teabags)
(http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/4788/ringcycle.jpg)

I am very excited to start listening, and shall report back once I have finished Das Rheingold!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 03, 2012, 07:31:45 AM
Listened to Das Rheingold in full today, absolutely amazing, beautiful, thrilling music! I am very excited to continue my journey through the Ring Cycle! So great.... :D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 03, 2012, 07:46:56 AM
Rheingold is just the beginning... Btw, I always think that Wagner becomes WAGNER in the music which leads us to Nibelheim.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on April 03, 2012, 07:54:55 AM
(* bites tongue *)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 03, 2012, 08:09:46 AM
(*hears scream*)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 03, 2012, 08:19:14 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 03, 2012, 07:46:56 AM
Rheingold is just the beginning... Btw, I always think that Wagner becomes WAGNER in the music which leads us to Nibelheim.

Yes.... and the shortest....  :o  ;)
Yes, I'll certainly want to listen to the operas that came before the Ring as well. Well, I'll want to have heard of all them eventually of course! ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 03, 2012, 08:21:38 AM
Who knows - we might see a new person here: madaboutwagner.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 03, 2012, 08:23:15 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 03, 2012, 08:21:38 AM
Who knows - we might see a new person here: madaboutwagner.

I should probably copyright the 'madabout....' name ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 03, 2012, 08:34:50 AM
 ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on April 03, 2012, 09:38:06 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 03, 2012, 08:09:46 AM
(*hears scream*)

No, that was a soprano . . . .
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 03, 2012, 09:43:38 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 03, 2012, 07:31:45 AM
Listened to Das Rheingold in full today, absolutely amazing, beautiful, thrilling music! I am very excited to continue my journey through the Ring Cycle! So great.... :D

So glad you listened to Das Rheingold, so, so glad! :D Listening to the Ring Cycle is absolutely an overwhelming experience, its massive beauty and power capture you completely, like a sort of hypnotism! ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Elgarian on April 03, 2012, 09:58:40 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 03, 2012, 07:31:45 AM
Listened to Das Rheingold in full today, absolutely amazing, beautiful, thrilling music! I am very excited to continue my journey through the Ring Cycle! So great.... :D

Absolutely! I still remember my wife phoning me at work (this was in in 1976 or 7) to tell me our box of Bohm's Ring had arrived - this was a vinyl set, bought mail order (we'd all but mortgaged everything we owned to get it) - and she could hardly contain herself: 'I've listened to the first Rheingold LP and it's amazing - just amazing!'

That afternoon, I had to carry on at work - she listened to the rest of Rheingold. It's astonishing that our marriage survived that kind of trauma, really.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on April 03, 2012, 10:22:52 AM
You see? You never know how strong your marriage is, until these extraordinary forces are brought to bear upon the home . . . .
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 03, 2012, 11:20:49 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 03, 2012, 09:38:06 AM
No, that was a soprano . . . .

;D

Quote from: Lisztianwagner on April 03, 2012, 09:43:38 AM
So glad you listened to Das Rheingold, so, so glad! :D Listening to the Ring Cycle is absolutely an overwhelming experience, its massive beauty and power capture you completely, like a sort of hypnotism! ;D

Thank you, Ilaria! Very excited to continuing my journey through the Ring Cycle now! Even more excited when I found out that Die Walkure has a thunder machine!!!!! :D :D  8)  8)

Quote from: Elgarian on April 03, 2012, 09:58:40 AM
Absolutely! I still remember my wife phoning me at work (this was in in 1976 or 7) to tell me our box of Bohm's Ring had arrived - this was a vinyl set, bought mail order (we'd all but mortgaged everything we owned to get it) - and she could hardly contain herself: 'I've listened to the first Rheingold LP and it's amazing - just amazing!'

That afternoon, I had to carry on at work - she listened to the rest of Rheingold. It's astonishing that our marriage survived that kind of trauma, really.

haha :D Wonderful! I feel like going to excite a special someone about how amazing the Ring Cycle is right now too! :D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 03, 2012, 11:37:35 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 03, 2012, 11:20:49 AM
Thank you, Ilaria! Very excited to continuing my journey through the Ring Cycle now! Even more excited when I found out that Die Walkure has a thunder machine!!!!! :D :D  8)  8)

But I had already told you the Ring Cycle included the thunder machine!! ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 03, 2012, 11:44:40 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on April 03, 2012, 11:37:35 AM
But I had already told you the Ring Cycle included the thunder machine!! ;D

haha ;) Sorry, I must have forgotten! I had a massive fit of excitement when I saw it in the score! That climax looks thrilling.... :D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Elgarian on April 03, 2012, 11:59:23 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 03, 2012, 10:22:52 AM
You see? You never know how strong your marriage is, until these extraordinary forces are brought to bear upon the home . . . .

There are times, Dr Henning, when the wit and goodwill of your posts makes a dull day brighter.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 03, 2012, 12:00:52 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 03, 2012, 11:59:23 AM
There are times, Dr Henning, when the wit and goodwill of your posts makes a dull day brighter.

+1

(or a great day even better! :) )
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 03, 2012, 12:04:47 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 03, 2012, 11:44:40 AM
haha ;) Sorry, I must have forgotten! I had a massive fit of excitement when I saw it in the score! That climax looks thrilling.... :D

No problem :) Haha, I know you are a great lover of the thunder machine ;) I think I got which climax you were talking about, of course it is certainly incredibly powerful and haunting, absolutely beautiful!

Quote from: Elgarian on April 03, 2012, 11:59:23 AM
There are times, Dr Henning, when the wit and goodwill of your posts makes a dull day brighter.

+2  :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 03, 2012, 12:05:06 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on Today at 18:38:06 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=113.msg617012#msg617012)>No, that was a soprano . . . .


:D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Madiel on April 04, 2012, 08:13:37 PM
Wasn't entirely sure if this was the best thread option, but here goes...

First, by way of background, I'm not actually familiar with Wagner's music yet, apart from tiny snippets.  Considering going to watch the Met's Ring cycle at the local cinema in a couple of months (the 'Live at the Met' program - seems like a good opportunity to test out the whole Ring cycle without breaking the bank).

BUT, something I am familiar with and was having a conversation about yesterday, is the 'Gap Cycle' of books by Stephen Donaldson.  Which is a reimagining of the Ring in a futuristic science fiction setting.  Donaldson makes it quite clear that he is not trying to do a literal re-telling of the operas, but he clearly takes many elements and themes from them.

I love the books. I was vaguely wondering if any of the Wagner afficionados around here knew them.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 05, 2012, 07:05:20 AM
Listened to the first act of Die Walkure today... absolutely beautiful! Will be listening to the second act tommorow!

I am really loving the Karajan performance by the way, an amazing sound. Such heavy strings in the climaxes! :D And such sensitive, expressive playing. Really excellent, so thank you again to everyone who helped me to finally choose the Karajan Ring over the others for my first cycle! :)

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 05, 2012, 07:36:31 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 05, 2012, 07:05:20 AM
Listened to the first act of Die Walkure today... absolutely beautiful! Will be listening to the second act tommorow!

I am really loving the Karajan performance by the way, an amazing sound. Such heavy strings in the climaxes! :D And such sensitive, expressive playing. Really excellent, so thank you again to everyone who helped me to finally choose the Karajan Ring over the others for my first cycle! :)

:o :)

I'm rather speechless you decided to split Die Walkure, but glad you enjoyed the first act though; the other two acts are even more striking, there Wagner achieved the peak of beauty and expressive strenght, absolutely thrilling and haunting. And Karajan's performance doesn't need any comment, apart from saying that it's definitely a masterpiece.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 05, 2012, 08:09:39 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on April 05, 2012, 07:36:31 AM
:o :)

I'm rather speechless you decided to split Die Walkure, but glad you enjoyed the first act though; the other two acts are even more striking, there Wagner achieved the peak of beauty and expressive strenght, absolutely thrilling and haunting. And Karajan's performance doesn't need any comment, apart from saying that it's definitely a masterpiece.

Sorry, Ilaria! I didn't think I would have enough time to listen to the whole opera in just one day... and listening to it by act seemed the best solution!
Thank you! Your words make me even more excited to hear the rest! :D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 07, 2012, 08:06:00 AM
Just posted in the listening thread:
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 07, 2012, 08:01:27 AM
Just back from:

[asin]B000009CMV[/asin]

Die Walkure: Act 2

Amazing music! Absolutely thrilling, with many many beautiful, moving moments. Looking forward to Act 3 which will be listened to tommorow. :)

Act 2 was amazing! The last few minutes were absolutely thrilling. And there was a section that ended the 1st half of the act (end of disc 2) that I found very moving... so many beautiful moments!

Really excited to listen to Act 3 tommorow!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 07, 2012, 12:06:29 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 07, 2012, 08:06:00 AM
Just posted in the listening thread:
Act 2 was amazing! The last few minutes were absolutely thrilling. And there was a section that ended the 1st half of the act (end of disc 2) that I found very moving... so many beautiful moments!

Really excited to listen to Act 3 tommorow!

Yes, the speeches among Wotan, Fricka and Brunnhilde are definitely beautiful, incredibly passionate; the tragedy achieves its overwhelming peak, with the music subjected to the meaning of the poetry, expressed by Wotan's words: "Auf geb' ich mein Werk; nur Eines will ich noch: das Ende, das Ende!". Absolutely thrilling......
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 07, 2012, 12:23:00 PM
I always find that dialogue between Fricka and Wotan one of the best things Wagner ever did. He is really even-handed in his treatment of both characters, and the music he finds for Fricka belongs to the noblest in the whole of the Ring.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 07, 2012, 12:27:18 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 07, 2012, 12:23:00 PM
I always find that dialogue between Fricka and Wotan one of the best things Wagner ever did. He is really even-handed in his treatment of both characters, and the music he finds for Fricka belongs to the noblest in the whole of the Ring.

Well said, Johan! :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 07, 2012, 01:03:28 PM
It certainly was amazing! Can't wait to listen to Act 3 tommorow... :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 07, 2012, 01:07:22 PM
Act 3 packs the biggest emotional punch imaginable. Only Mahler's 'Abschied' from Das Lied von der Erde comes near.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Elgarian on April 08, 2012, 01:20:45 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 07, 2012, 01:03:28 PM
It certainly was amazing! Can't wait to listen to Act 3 tommorow... :)

I can only echo the others. For me, there are very few musical episodes that approach this in emotional impact.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 08, 2012, 07:09:47 AM
Wow... can't wait! Off to go and listen to it now. Will report back later, but by the sounds of it, I will probably be speechless!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 08, 2012, 09:04:42 AM
Just back from the last act of Die Walkure.....  :o

Such powerfully beautiful, moving music, so passionate and heavenly!!!!! Simply amazing.... Not only my favourite act so far... but certainly now some of my favourite music ever written. Absolutely amazing.

Looking forward to continuing the journey, by starting Siegfried. I will be able to continue on Tuesday, very excited! :D

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 08, 2012, 09:11:59 AM
Wonderful, Daniel. We have all been there, so we know what you have just experienced.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 08, 2012, 10:55:03 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 08, 2012, 09:04:42 AM
Just back from the last act of Die Walkure.....  :o

Such powerfully beautiful, moving music, so passionate and heavenly!!!!! Simply amazing.... Not only my favourite act so far... but certainly now some of my favourite music ever written. Absolutely amazing.

Looking forward to continuing the journey, by starting Siegfried. I will be able to continue on Tuesday, very excited! :D

Hojotoho! Hojotoho! Heiaha! Heiaha! :D

I'm really glad you liked this opera so much! I agree with everything you said, the 3rd act of Die Walkure is absolutely thrilling, passionate and powerfully evocative, full of beauty and poetry; absolutely haunting, ethereal music!!
Enjoy Siegfried on Tuesday :); that opera, along with Gotterdammerung, is my favourite of the whole Ring Cycle.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 08, 2012, 11:10:29 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 08, 2012, 09:11:59 AM
Wonderful, Daniel. We have all been there, so we know what you have just experienced.
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on April 08, 2012, 10:55:03 AM
Hojotoho! Hojotoho! Heiaha! Heiaha! :D

I'm really glad you liked this opera so much! I agree with everything you said, the 3rd act of Die Walkure is absolutely thrilling, passionate and powerfully evocative, full of beauty and poetry; absolutely haunting, ethereal music!!
Enjoy Siegfried on Tuesday :); that opera, along with Gotterdammerung, is my favourite of the whole Ring Cycle.


Thank you, both! It certainly was amazing! :)

I am certainly looking forward to the two remaining operas, Ilaria! What an amazing journey it is!!! :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Elgarian on April 08, 2012, 11:31:39 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on April 08, 2012, 10:55:03 AM
Hojotoho! Hojotoho! Heiaha! Heiaha!

Exactly so. Exactly so.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on April 08, 2012, 02:36:12 PM
Siegfried is my personal favorite, especially act II. Hope you enjoy it as much as I have!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 09, 2012, 03:51:08 AM
Quote from: Alberich on April 08, 2012, 02:36:12 PM
Siegfried is my personal favorite, especially act II. Hope you enjoy it as much as I have!

Thank you! I look forward to it very much! The small excerpts from Siegfried I have heard so far sound absolutely brilliant! :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 10, 2012, 08:26:43 AM
Just back from listening to the first act of Siegfried.

I enjoyed it so so so so much! It was absolutely amazing, such brilliant music! By the end of it, I think I was getting carried away with my facial expressions and urges to burst out conducting, as I was loving it so much! I had to repeat the finale! Absolutely thrilling!

SO BRILLIANT!!!!!

Not sure when I will be able to continue with Act 2... but whenever I can, I am very much looking forward to it! :D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 10, 2012, 08:55:32 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 10, 2012, 08:26:43 AM
Just back from listening to the first act of Siegfried.

I enjoyed it so so so so much! It was absolutely amazing, such brilliant music! By the end of it, I think I was getting carried away with my facial expressions and urges to burst out conducting, as I was loving it so much! I had to repeat the finale! Absolutely thrilling!

SO BRILLIANT!!!!!

Not sure when I will be able to continue with Act 2... but whenever I can, I am very much looking forward to it! :D

Haha, I can totally share the feeling :D

The 1st act of Siegfried is really powerfully emotional, absolutely thrilling, passionate music! (actually, my favourite opera of the Ring) :) I've always been so impressed by the expressive, intese strenght of the finale that I always have the impulse to beat the hammer on Siegfried's rythm or to burst out conducting.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 10, 2012, 08:58:55 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on April 10, 2012, 08:55:32 AM
Haha, I can totally share the feeling :D

The 1st act of Siegfried is really powerfully emotional, absolutely thrilling, passionate music! (actually, my favourite opera of the Ring) :) I've always been so impressed by the expressive, intese strenght of the finale that I always have the impulse to beat the hammer on Siegfried's rythm or to burst out conducting.

haha :D I loved the hammer too, believe it or not! ;)

I loved it so much, that I even posted on the Judith Weir thread to post about how amazing the Ring Cycle is! :D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 10, 2012, 09:37:05 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 10, 2012, 08:58:55 AM
haha :D I loved the hammer too, believe it or not! ;)

I loved it so much, that I even posted on the Judith Weir thread to post about how amazing the Ring Cycle is! :D

Haha, I was sure you would loved the hammer! ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on April 12, 2012, 06:47:38 AM
@madaboutmahler: pardon me if you have mentioned it before, but is the Ring Cycle your first experience with Wagner or have you listened to his other operas too? I myself started with the Ring and I find it an excellent introduction to Wagner's awesome art, it being my favorite classical work of all time. Not to say his other awesome operas (or music dramas) wouldn't as well.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 12, 2012, 10:33:29 AM
Quote from: Alberich on April 12, 2012, 06:47:38 AM
I myself started with the Ring and I find it an excellent introduction to Wagner's awesome art, it being my favorite classical work of all time.

Wonderful! :D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 12, 2012, 12:10:26 PM
Quote from: Alberich on Today at 16:47:38 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=113.msg619861#msg619861)
I myself started with the Ring and I find it an excellent introduction to Wagner's awesome art.



Same here. I first bought LPs (yes...) with just orchestral fragments and preludes. The first real music drama I listened to, diligently reading along in the libretto, was 'Das Rheingold' under Karajan. I remember forcing my sister, who was deep into Earth, Wind & Fire at the time, to listen to those sensational sixteen anvils...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 14, 2012, 07:21:55 AM
Quote from: Alberich on April 12, 2012, 06:47:38 AM
@madaboutmahler: pardon me if you have mentioned it before, but is the Ring Cycle your first experience with Wagner or have you listened to his other operas too? I myself started with the Ring and I find it an excellent introduction to Wagner's awesome art, it being my favorite classical work of all time. Not to say his other awesome operas (or music dramas) wouldn't as well.

No problem. Yes, the Ring Cycle is my first exploration into the world of Wagner. Probably partially why I am so amazed! Of course I knew the overtures before, and loved them. But it is through the Ring Cycle that I have for the first time listened to a Wagner opera in full.

:)

I imagine I will listen to Tristan und Isolde after the Ring. I might take me a while to finish the Ring now though, as school term-time starts this Monday.... might be difficult to find as much time to devote to Wagner... I will find the time though!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on April 14, 2012, 05:24:49 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 14, 2012, 07:21:55 AM
No problem. Yes, the Ring Cycle is my first exploration into the world of Wagner. Probably partially why I am so amazed! Of course I knew the overtures before, and loved them. But it is through the Ring Cycle that I have for the first time listened to a Wagner opera in full.

:)

I imagine I will listen to Tristan und Isolde after the Ring. I might take me a while to finish the Ring now though, as school term-time starts this Monday.... might be difficult to find as much time to devote to Wagner... I will find the time though!

I started my Wagner with Meistersinger and Parsifal,  then went on to the earlier works and only then to the Ring.  It was the last act of Meistersinger and the transformation scenes in Parsifal that hooked me.  At that time,  I knew them via the Solti recordings on LP.
I had a very hard time with Tristan--usually fell asleep by the end of Act I.  The key for me was to familiarize myself with the libretto:  the talk vs action ratio in Tristan is highly slanted to the talk side, probably more than in any other of Wagner's works, and you really need to know what the characters are saying (that is, singing) most of the time--unlike some other passages in, say, Parsifal or Walkure, where a general idea of what the character is saying is all that's necessary for at least preliminary enjoyment.  (Of course, if you really want to "get" any of those works, you eventually have to know in detail what's being said/sung onstage--but that goes for almost every opera, anyway.)   I have three recordings now of Tristan--Furtwangler on EMI,  Pappano (with Domingo),  and Bohm, and wouldn't be without any of them.

ETA: Come to think of it,  I wasn't a total stranger to the Ring--I had the Bohm recording of Rheingold,  and if nothing else thoroughly enjoyed those hammers!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on April 14, 2012, 11:01:48 PM
I got in to Wagner through the bleeding chunks, but then did go to a Ring Cycle when I was about 17. I went on my own as I did not know anyone else who liked the kind of music I was into. I bought the Solti Ring on LP, but a lot of the time I was cherry picking my favourite parts. There are still stretches of Wagner that I would cheerfully take scissors to. So I am not really a Wagnarian  who considers the pieces as almost sacred: but as the years go by, I find more and more and enjoy elements I once ignored.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 15, 2012, 06:02:16 AM
I started my wagnerian journey with Der Ring des Nibelungen too; after listening to the ouvertures and various excerpts from Wagner's operas, I was very impressed by the great beauty of that music and I immediately looked for the complete works. The Ring Cycle was the first one I've ever got (Barenboim's recording), I had already known both the plot of Wagner's libretto and the Nibelungenlied, so I was very excited to start my exploration from it. ;D
The Ring absolutely overwhelmed me, I was so captured by the its power and passion that I listened to Das Rheingold and Die Walkure in the same day. Apart from Tristan und Isolde, I think it's quite hard to find another opera which can compete with the Ring Cycle for intensity, harmonic richness, orchestral brilliance, expressive strenght and overpowering passion, such absolutely thrilling music!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 15, 2012, 06:14:07 AM
Thank you all for sharing your stories about your Wagnerian beginnings! Very interesting and enjoyable to read. :)

I am really looking forward to continuing the Ring, and eventually coming to the other operas. :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 22, 2012, 11:42:29 AM
I managed to find some time this afternoon to listen to Act 2 of Siegfried, but wanted to continue so much that I ended up listening to the whole of Act 3 too! :D

Absolutely fantastic music. The music around 'Brunnhilde's Awakening' was very beautiful! I enjoyed the whole opera so incredibly much, it may be my favourite overall of the Ring Cycle so far, perhaps...

Really really excited to listen to Gotterdammerung... :D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 22, 2012, 11:52:41 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 22, 2012, 11:42:29 AM
I managed to find some time this afternoon to listen to Act 2 of Siegfried, but wanted to continue so much that I ended up listening to the whole of Act 3 too! :D

Absolutely fantastic music. The music around 'Brunnhilde's Awakening' was very beautiful! I enjoyed the whole opera so incredibly much, it may be my favourite overall of the Ring Cycle so far, perhaps...

Really really excited to listen to Gotterdammerung... :D

Amazing, Daniel, I certainly agree with everything you said! ;D Brunnhilde's Awakening is one of my favourite parts of Siegfried and of the whole Ring Cycle as well, such passionate, thrilling music, absolutely overwhelming! But there's not a single note of that work I don't deeply love. :)

I remember I sent you Barenboim's Siegfried Finale of the 3rd act; if I may ask, after listening both it and the Karajan, which one do you think is better?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 22, 2012, 11:58:17 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on April 22, 2012, 11:52:41 AM
Amazing, Daniel, I certainly agree with everything you said! ;D Brunnhilde's Awakening is one of my favourite parts of Siegfried and of the whole Ring Cycle as well, such passionate, thrilling music, absolutely overwhelming! But there's not a single note of that work I don't deeply love. :)

I remember I sent you Barenboim's Siegfried Finale of the 3rd act; if I may ask, after listening both it and the Karajan, which one do you think is better?

:) Certainly, I was very moved by the Awakening scene! And what an uplifting finale!!  0:)

hmmm... well they are certainly different! I would probably have to go for Barenboim for the finale of Act 3, in this part, slightly more involving and energetic than Karajan. Sorry!
But I absolutely love the whole Karajan cycle so far. Such great performances! :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 22, 2012, 12:11:09 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 22, 2012, 11:58:17 AM
:) Certainly, I was very moved by the Awakening scene! And what an uplifting finale!!  0:)

hmmm... well they are certainly different! I would probably have to go for Barenboim for the finale of Act 3, in this part, slightly more involving and energetic than Karajan. Sorry!
But I absolutely love the whole Karajan cycle so far. Such great performances! :)

Yes, Wagner had a very special gift for always composing beautiful, impressive final parts! :D

Sure, no problem; as a matter of fact, I've always told you Barenboim is better than Karajan in the finale of Act 3. There he adopts a slightly faster tempo which makes the piece and the atmospehere more powerful and vibrant.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 22, 2012, 12:15:51 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on April 22, 2012, 12:11:09 PM
Yes, Wagner had a very special gift for always composing beautiful, impressive final parts! :D

Sure, no problem; as a matter of fact, I've always told you Barenboim is better than Karajan in the finale of Act 3. There he adopts a slightly faster tempo which sounds more powerful and vibrant.

Certainly!!!!

Oh yes, I remember now! ;) Yes, I think the slightly faster tempo works well and brings an even more joyous and uplifting, romantic effect. Such a great piece!

Really excited to listen to Gotterdammerung now...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 22, 2012, 01:57:25 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 22, 2012, 12:15:51 PM
Certainly!!!!

Oh yes, I remember now! ;) Yes, I think the slightly faster tempo works well and brings an even more joyous and uplifting, romantic effect. Such a great piece!

Really excited to listen to Gotterdammerung now...

Sure!! :D

The Ring Cycle couldn't have a better ending than Gotterdammerung, what a beautiful, intense and powerfuly expressive opera (or better, musikdrama)! Enjoy it! :D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla - we interrupt for a brief announcement ...
Post by: Scion7 on April 22, 2012, 03:44:40 PM
(http://s7.postimage.org/p0zeb9myz/cartoon_ring_cycle.jpg)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 23, 2012, 07:52:27 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on April 22, 2012, 01:57:25 PM
Sure!! :D

The Ring Cycle couldn't have a better ending than Gotterdammerung, what a beautiful, intense and powerfuly expressive opera (or better, musikdrama)! Enjoy it! :D

Thank you, Ilaria! I am sure that I will... :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 23, 2012, 10:54:30 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 23, 2012, 07:52:27 AM
Thank you, Ilaria! I am sure that I will... :)

;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on April 23, 2012, 05:16:44 PM
Listening to the Haitink recording of Gotterdammerung as I post this.  Currently at the start of CD 3/Act II (the Hagen/Alberich scene).   The pacing makes it seem a much shorter opera than it actually is (as in "What, it's already at the end of Act I?  I just put it on a half hour ago--well, maybe not  ;D  );  it seems well balanced between singers and orchestra, and I've seen comments aimed at Marton's contribution, but at least as far as the Prologue/Act I goes, I detected no flaws in her performance.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on April 25, 2012, 05:00:16 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on April 22, 2012, 11:52:41 AMBrunnhilde's Awakening is one of my favourite parts of Siegfried

My favorite parts of Siegfried has always been Waldweben in act II (because of how heavenly the bird calls sound), Fafner's moving death (how even the fratricide-committing Fafner has some redeeming qualities when he warns Siegfried of Mime) and one of the funniest parts in the Ring: quarrel between Alberich and Mime along with Mime's "true word"-conversation with Siegfried: (even though I kind of feel bad for Mime since everyone treats him like dirt) I especially love how Gerhard Stolze delivers Mime's "Ich will dem Kind nur den Kopf abhaun" in the way that sounds like he's just talking about how much he loves Siegfried. That being said, I love Brünnhilde's awakening as well.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 25, 2012, 06:03:52 AM
Quote from: Alberich on April 25, 2012, 05:00:16 AM
My favorite parts of Siegfried has always been Waldweben in act II (because of how heavenly the bird calls sound), Fafner's moving death (how even the fratricide-committing Fafner has some redeeming qualities when he warns Siegfried of Mime) and one of the funniest parts in the Ring: quarrel between Alberich and Mime along with Mime's "true word"-conversation with Siegfried: (even though I kind of feel bad for Mime since everyone treats him like dirt) I especially love how Gerhard Stolze delivers Mime's "Ich will dem Kind nur den Kopf abhaun" in the way that sounds like he's just talking about how much he loves Siegfried. That being said, I love Brünnhilde's awakening as well.

Brilliant, I absolutely love all the scenes you mentioned. ;D

Well, actually it wouldn't be completely fair to talk about favourite parts for me, I always enjoy every single note of Siegfried as well as the whole Ring Cycle; I could say that there are parts which powerfully impress more than others. :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 25, 2012, 08:16:02 AM
I adored 'Siegfried' as a teenager. I was thrilled at the energy of the sword-making scene, I loved the return to a 'Rheingold' atmosphere and the many favourite leitmotivs that crop up in the Wanderer-Mime scene. I loved the Alberich-Wanderer dialogue, the Waldweben, and the noble Fafner music, after Siegfried has mortally wounded him, and finally - Siegfried setting out to Brünnhilde's mountain. And Act Three as a whole - wow! That grandiose opening blew my mind...


Now, 35 years later, I must say Act 1 has paled a bit. I find it rather repetitive, and sometimes a bit tired, so I don't listen to it that often. Act 2 has stood up better, and it is an improvement on Act 1. Act 3 remains tremendous.


Just to give you an idea of what living with Wagner means to one admirer...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 25, 2012, 11:09:42 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 25, 2012, 08:16:02 AM
I adored 'Siegfried' as a teenager. I was thrilled at the energy of the sword-making scene, I loved the return to a 'Rheingold' atmosphere and the many favourite leitmotivs that crop up in the Wanderer-Mime scene. I loved the Alberich-Wanderer dialogue, the Waldweben, and the noble Fafner music, after Siegfried has mortally wounded him, and finally - Siegfried setting out to Brünnhilde's mountain. And Act Three as a whole - wow! That grandiose opening blew my mind...


You point out particular parts I really loved too, Johan! I was also pleased to hear so many of my favourite motivs coming back! :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Guido on April 26, 2012, 04:14:46 AM
Siegfried remains for me the hardest nut to crack of the Ring. I find the first act rather dull, maybe the worst act in the Ring. The second act contains some very beautiful music in the latter half, and the third act I love. Thank god he paused before its composition!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Elgarian on April 26, 2012, 11:58:05 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 22, 2012, 12:15:51 PM
Really excited to listen to Gotterdammerung now...

I almost envy you your first experience of Gotterdammerung, Daniel. A little over 30 years ago, English National Opera toured their Ring in the north of England, including Manchester. We'd known the Ring from our Bohm/Bayreuth recording, bought 2 or 3 years earlier, so we bought tickets for the Gotterdammerung evening (all we could afford, and this was our favourite of the four). I remember it was a hot evening, and we sweltered high up in the cheapest seats, while Rita Hunter and Alberto Remedios put on what surely must have been one of their finest performances. We were transfixed, despite the discomfort, from beginning to end. It was the finest musical experience of my life, and it's never been surpassed since.

It seems we were not alone in our enjoyment of it. At the end the audience erupted, and applauded, and applauded, and applauded, as if they were unwilling ever to let the performers go. I've never experienced anything like that response since, either. But in hindsight, I think nothing but Gotterdammerung could have permitted this kind of transcendence of performance/engagement. For a few hours we were among the gods, and died with them. You can't really beat that.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 26, 2012, 12:41:18 PM
Sitting up in the gods, you became them.  ;)


Nice piece, Elgarian.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 26, 2012, 01:05:06 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 26, 2012, 11:58:05 AM
I almost envy you your first experience of Gotterdammerung, Daniel. A little over 30 years ago, English National Opera toured their Ring in the north of England, including Manchester. We'd known the Ring from our Bohm/Bayreuth recording, bought 2 or 3 years earlier, so we bought tickets for the Gotterdammerung evening (all we could afford, and this was our favourite of the four). I remember it was a hot evening, and we sweltered high up in the cheapest seats, while Rita Hunter and Alberto Remedios put on what surely must have been one of their finest performances. We were transfixed, despite the discomfort, from beginning to end. It was the finest musical experience of my life, and it's never been surpassed since.

It seems we were not alone in our enjoyment of it. At the end the audience erupted, and applauded, and applauded, and applauded, as if they were unwilling ever to let the performers go. I've never experienced anything like that response since, either. But in hindsight, I think nothing but Gotterdammerung could have permitted this kind of transcendence of performance/engagement. For a few hours we were among the gods, and died with them. You can't really beat that.

Beautiful! It must have been an absolutely stunning event.

I believe there is a Ring Cycle here in London next year... I'll probably only be able to go to just one too... it will be a hard choice to pick which one to see!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 26, 2012, 01:20:19 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 26, 2012, 11:58:05 AM
It seems we were not alone in our enjoyment of it. At the end the audience erupted, and applauded, and applauded, and applauded, as if they were unwilling ever to let the performers go. I've never experienced anything like that response since, either. But in hindsight, I think nothing but Gotterdammerung could have permitted this kind of transcendence of performance/engagement. For a few hours we were among the gods, and died with them. You can't really beat that.
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 26, 2012, 12:41:18 PM
Sitting up in the gods, you became them.  ;)


Nice piece, Elgarian.

Absolutely, well said, Alan. ;D

Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 26, 2012, 01:05:06 PM
I believe there is a Ring Cycle here in London next year... I'll probably only be able to go to just one too... it will be a hard choice to pick which one to see!

Really?? Oh, I must definitely come to England then!! :o
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on April 26, 2012, 01:25:35 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 26, 2012, 01:05:06 PM


I believe there is a Ring Cycle here in London next year...

I believe there's a Ring Cycle everywhere, next year. There won't be any escaping from Wagner in 2013.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 26, 2012, 01:32:53 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on April 26, 2012, 01:20:19 PM
Really?? Oh, I must definitely come to England then!! :o
Quote from: jlaurson on April 26, 2012, 01:25:35 PM
I believe there's a Ring Cycle everywhere, next year. There won't be any escaping from Wagner in 2013.

Looks like you will have a lot of choice, Ilaria! But come to England anyway! ;)

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on April 26, 2012, 07:06:32 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 26, 2012, 01:25:35 PM
I believe there's a Ring Cycle everywhere, next year. There won't be any escaping from Wagner in 2013.

Ilaria, how convenient is Milan for you?  (I have no idea of where in Italy you live.) 
La Scala is doing the full cycle twice in the last half of June 2013. 
http://www.teatroallascala.org/ring/en/ring.html

There will also be productions of Lohengrin and Dutchman, if you want to poke around their website for info.

I've seen three Wagner opera productions live in theatre (meaning, not on DVD or telecast)--Dutchman in the local Atlanta opera production, and Lohengrin and Tannhauser among the operas the Met used to bring in its annual tours to Atlanta and other cities.  That was all in the late '70s.

Here in Miami, the FGO seems to have not gotten the memo that this will be an anniversary year--Puccini, Mozart, Bellini, and Verdi get the four slots for next year's productions.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 27, 2012, 02:04:16 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 26, 2012, 07:06:32 PM
Ilaria, how convenient is Milan for you?  (I have no idea of where in Italy you live.) 
La Scala is doing the full cycle twice in the last half of June 2013. 
http://www.teatroallascala.org/ring/en/ring.html

There will also be productions of Lohengrin and Dutchman, if you want to poke around their website for info.

I've seen three Wagner opera productions live in theatre (meaning, not on DVD or telecast)--Dutchman in the local Atlanta opera production, and Lohengrin and Tannhauser among the operas the Met used to bring in its annual tours to Atlanta and other cities.  That was all in the late '70s.

Ah, luckily it's extremely convenient, it takes just 1 hour and half by train (I live in Padua).
I've already had a look at the programme of the next season and I'm so so happy to see they are going to perform no less than seven Wagner's operas!! Lohengrin, The Flying Dutchman, Gotterdammerung and the whole Ring Cycle, plus Siegfried in October!! :D
Anyway, thank you for sending me the link, Jeffrey, you were very kind. :) Actually, I need to check the correct dates.

So far I've seen five Wagner opera productions live in theatre: Das Rheingold both in Milan and in Venice, Die Walkure in Milan and both Siegfried and Gotterdammerung in Bari. I'm really looking forward to seeing Barenboim's performances!!

Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 26, 2012, 01:32:53 PM
Looks like you will have a lot of choice, Ilaria! But come to England anyway! ;)

Haha, quite right! I will try to do it anyway. ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on April 30, 2012, 10:32:09 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 26, 2012, 11:58:05 AM
I almost envy you your first experience of Gotterdammerung, Daniel. A little over 30 years ago, English National Opera toured their Ring in the north of England, including Manchester. We'd known the Ring from our Bohm/Bayreuth recording, bought 2 or 3 years earlier, so we bought tickets for the Gotterdammerung evening (all we could afford, and this was our favourite of the four). I remember it was a hot evening, and we sweltered high up in the cheapest seats, while Rita Hunter and Alberto Remedios put on what surely must have been one of their finest performances. We were transfixed, despite the discomfort, from beginning to end. It was the finest musical experience of my life, and it's never been surpassed since.

It seems we were not alone in our enjoyment of it. At the end the audience erupted, and applauded, and applauded, and applauded, as if they were unwilling ever to let the performers go. I've never experienced anything like that response since, either. But in hindsight, I think nothing but Gotterdammerung could have permitted this kind of transcendence of performance/engagement. For a few hours we were among the gods, and died with them. You can't really beat that.

incidentally . . . to-day was a kind of landmark for me, in a small way.  This is the first I have loaded Wagner onto my mp3 player; and the two operas wherewith I observed this watershed are Götterdämmerung & Siegfried, the Böhm/Bayreuth Festspiel recording included in The Cube.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 30, 2012, 10:54:11 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 30, 2012, 10:32:09 AM
incidentally . . . to-day was a kind of landmark for me, in a small way.  This is the first I have loaded Wagner onto my mp3 player; and the two operas wherewith I observed this watershed are Götterdämmerung & Siegfried, the Böhm/Bayreuth Festspiel recording included in The Cube.

Amazing, Karl! Böhm's recordings are excellent choices. :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 30, 2012, 01:08:15 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on Today at 20:54:11 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=113.msg625224#msg625224)
Amazing, Karl! Böhm's recordings are excellent choices. :)



Seconded. Strong, lively performances.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on April 30, 2012, 06:27:05 PM
New release alert:

The Halle recording of Die Walkure (from live performances in July of last year) is slated to come out in about two weeks in the UK (if it's listed on AmazonUS, I didn't find it while looking now).
[asin]B007XRX9BK[/asin]

Amazon UK
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wagner-Die-Walküre-Hallé/dp/B007XRX9BK/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1335838941&sr=1-1
or PrestoClassical
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Hall%25C3%25A9/CDHLD7531

Acts I and III each get one CD to themselves, and Act II is split between two CDs, with a fifth CD holding the liner notes/libretto in PDF.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Elgarian on May 01, 2012, 05:26:52 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 30, 2012, 10:32:09 AM
incidentally . . . to-day was a kind of landmark for me, in a small way.  This is the first I have loaded Wagner onto my mp3 player; and the two operas wherewith I observed this watershed are Götterdämmerung & Siegfried, the Böhm/Bayreuth Festspiel recording included in The Cube.

Good choice. For many years the Bohm was the only recording we had, and although there was always a secret Solti-shaped hole hidden inside me, my appreciation of the Ring was able to blossom and grow perfectly well with Bohm's assistance.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Mirror Image on May 01, 2012, 08:09:28 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 26, 2012, 01:05:06 PM
Beautiful! It must have been an absolutely stunning event.

I believe there is a Ring Cycle here in London next year... I'll probably only be able to go to just one too... it will be a hard choice to pick which one to see!

Flip a coin to decide: heads - Das Rheingold, tails - Gotterdammerung.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on May 02, 2012, 09:47:03 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 01, 2012, 08:09:28 PM
Flip a coin to decide: heads - Das Rheingold, tails - Gotterdammerung.

I'd love to see both Die Walkure and Siegfried too though! ;)

I was going to start Gotterdammerung today... but am far too tired for it. Will save it for the weekend. :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 02, 2012, 10:34:17 AM
Choosing only one opera of the Ring Cycle is like Lohengrin's forbidden question: you can't give an answer to that. :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bigshot on May 02, 2012, 03:53:23 PM
The first act of Siegfried comes alive in Goodall's English cycle. It's another one where you need to understand the words.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on May 03, 2012, 02:23:30 AM
Just back from

Das Liebesverbot. (Frankfurt Opera)

Less Wagner in Wagner is impossible!

Justly neglected, and just as justly dug out every centennial or sesquicentennial.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on May 03, 2012, 03:50:56 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 03, 2012, 02:23:30 AM
. . . Justly neglected, and just as justly dug out every centennial or sesquicentennial.

Aye, because it's the Pen of the Master, there is the obligatory Trotting-Out.  And then, because it is half-baked, the inevitable consequent: Stager's Remorse . . . .
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on May 03, 2012, 03:53:40 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 30, 2012, 10:32:09 AM
Incidentally . . . to-day was a kind of landmark for me, in a small way.  This is the first I have loaded Wagner onto my mp3 player; and the two operas wherewith I observed this watershed are Götterdämmerung & Siegfried, the Böhm/Bayreuth Festspiel recording included in The Cube.

I carried on yesterday, with transferring both Das Rheingold & Die Walküre to the trusty mp3 player.

Now, I could theoretically just fold my ears into the headphones and listen to the entire Ring on the morning commute.

But, thank heaven! my morning commute is not nearly so long!
: )
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 03, 2012, 05:07:17 AM
Quote (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=113.msg626159#msg626159)>But, thank heaven! my morning commute is not nearly so long! : )

Ever considered a small detour?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on May 03, 2012, 05:12:30 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 03, 2012, 05:07:17 AM
Quote (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=113.msg626159#msg626159)>But, thank heaven! my morning commute is not nearly so long! : )


Ever considered a small detour?
To Nibelheim? That's not my part of town! ; )
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 03, 2012, 05:59:27 AM
 ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 03, 2012, 11:40:20 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 03, 2012, 03:53:40 AM
I carried on yesterday, with transferring both Das Rheingold & Die Walküre to the trusty mp3 player.

Now, I could theoretically just fold my ears into the headphones and listen to the entire Ring on the morning commute.

I wonder if you could finally become a devoted wagnerite, Karl. ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on May 07, 2012, 11:04:31 AM
Listened to the prologue and first act of Gotterdammerung today. Absolutely amazing, brilliant, beautiful, divine music!!!!

I loved every second of the Prologue in particular, a part near the end made me release a tear as it uplifted me so much! Such great music!

Coming closer to the end of the Ring Journey...  very excited to hear the final acts! I have heard, and been very moved by the Immolation Scene before, but now that I know what has come before it, I imagine it being even more powerfully moving and special.

:)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 07, 2012, 12:20:59 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on May 07, 2012, 11:04:31 AM
Listened to the prologue and first act of Gotterdammerung today. Absolutely amazing, brilliant, beautiful, divine music!!!!

I loved every second of the Prologue in particular, a part near the end made me release a tear as it uplifted me so much! Such great music!

Coming closer to the end of the Ring Journey...  very excited to hear the final acts! I have heard, and been very moved by the Immolation Scene before, but now that I know what has come before it, I imagine it being even more powerfully moving and special.

:)

Amazing, Daniel! So glad you've been enjoying the Ring Cycle so much! ;D

The Prelude of the 1st act is outstanding, extremely passionate and powerful; the opening with the leitmotif of Brunnhilde's Awakening dropped down by a semitone is absolutely impressive, thrilling and beautiful: now the atmosphere is dramatic, intense and deeper, completely different compared with that one perceived in Siegfried, it isn't a hymn to the light and the life any more......the ancestral wisdom of the Nornes is over, the world of the Gods is going to be destroyed. Stroke of genius by Wagner, definitely brilliant. :)

The other acts will be even more overwhelming, enjoy the rest of the Ring!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on May 07, 2012, 12:32:42 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on May 07, 2012, 12:20:59 PM
Amazing, Daniel! So glad you've been enjoying the Ring Cycle so much! ;D

The Prelude of the 1st act is outstanding, extremely passionate and powerful; the opening with the leitmotif of Brunnhilde's Awakening dropped down by a semitone is absolutely impressive, thrilling and beautiful: now the atmosphere is dramatic, intense and deeper, completely different compared with that one perceived in Siegfried, it isn't a hymn to the light and the life any more......the ancestral wisdom of the Nornes is over, the world of the Gods is going to be destroyed. Stroke of genius by Wagner, definitely brilliant. :)

The other acts will be even more overwhelming, enjoy the rest of the Ring!

Thank you, Ilaria! I am certainly very excited to hear the last two acts!
The whole of the 40 minute or so 'Prologue' really did move me, I loved it so much! The way so many of the leitmotifs come back is certainly genius.

Thank you!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on May 07, 2012, 12:44:46 PM


Ionarts-at-Large: Tristan. Oslo. Poppycock!

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_UsuhTOkR9g/T6gKXzKnjTI/AAAAAAAAB9Y/fZ8uKci2Qfc/s1600/Tristan_Oslo_Erik-Berg_600.jpg)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/05/ionarts-at-large-poppycock-in-oslo.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/05/ionarts-at-large-poppycock-in-oslo.html)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 07, 2012, 12:45:14 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on May 07, 2012, 12:32:42 PM
Thank you, Ilaria! I am certainly very excited to hear the last two acts!
The whole of the 40 minute or so 'Prologue' really did move me, I loved it so much! The way so many of the leitmotifs come back is certainly genius.

Certainly, I agree with everything you said. :)

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on May 07, 2012, 07:02:41 PM
I was looking through the Amazon listings a few days ago for the early Wagner operas--Die Feen, Das Liebesverbot, Rienzi--and the hardly ever performed works (Liebesmahl being the one I was most interested in). 
Recordings are very thin on the ground, and seem to be confined to a couple of 70s era recordings that are not cheap on the secondary market, and a couple of East European ventures involving musicians I've never heard of which, while not expensive, are not cheap either.

That was the lead up to my question:
Does anyone know of new recordings or new re-releases that might be forthcoming for "the anniversary year"?  I'm quite willing to wait for these if something good is in the offing.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: eyeresist on May 07, 2012, 07:19:07 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 07, 2012, 12:44:46 PM
Ionarts-at-Large: Tristan. Oslo. Poppycock!
(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/05/ionarts-at-large-poppycock-in-oslo.html)

Site doesn't load for me, for some reason.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wendell_E on May 08, 2012, 03:03:41 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 07, 2012, 07:02:41 PM
I was looking through the Amazon listings a few days ago for the early Wagner operas--Die Feen, Das Liebesverbot, Rienzi--and the hardly ever performed works (Liebesmahl being the one I was most interested in). 
Recordings are very thin on the ground, and seem to be confined to a couple of 70s era recordings that are not cheap on the secondary market

I got the 70s era BBC Das Liebesverbot at Berkshire Record Outlet for $11.97.  They still have it listed.  I also got the BBC Die Feen there, but it's no longer listed, though sometimes things will come back into stock.

Quote from: eyeresist on May 07, 2012, 07:19:07 PM
Site doesn't load for me, for some reason.

It worked fine for me.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on May 08, 2012, 03:08:49 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 07, 2012, 07:02:41 PM
I was looking through the Amazon listings a few days ago for the early Wagner operas--Die Feen, Das Liebesverbot, Rienzi--and the hardly ever performed works (Liebesmahl being the one I was most interested in). 
Recordings are very thin on the ground, and seem to be confined to a couple of 70s era recordings that are not cheap on the secondary market, and a couple of East European ventures involving musicians I've never heard of which, while not expensive, are not cheap either.

That was the lead up to my question:
Does anyone know of new recordings or new re-releases that might be forthcoming for "the anniversary year"?  I'm quite willing to wait for these if something good is in the offing.

Oehms will release all three -- recorded live at the Frankfurt Opera in concert performances. (Incidentally I was just at "Das Liebesverbot" last week.)
That said, the Sawallisch Recordings from the last big anniversary ('83) on Orfeo are quite good, too.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on May 08, 2012, 10:40:00 AM
Quote from: Guido on April 26, 2012, 04:14:46 AMI find the first act rather dull, maybe the worst act in the Ring.

To me the "worst" act is the first act of die Walküre, partly because I don't really like Siegmund and Sieglinde, and I find their romance the least satisfying in Wagner's works. To me Die Walküre is really about father-daughter relationship between Brünnhilde and Wotan, which is also the most touching love relationship in Wagner's whole repertoire, even though I still like Die Walküre least in tetralogy.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on May 08, 2012, 10:51:19 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on May 07, 2012, 11:04:31 AM
Listened to the prologue and first act of Gotterdammerung today. Absolutely amazing, brilliant, beautiful, divine music!!!!

I loved every second of the Prologue in particular, a part near the end made me release a tear as it uplifted me so much! Such great music!

Coming closer to the end of the Ring Journey...  very excited to hear the final acts! I have heard, and been very moved by the Immolation Scene before, but now that I know what has come before it, I imagine it being even more powerfully moving and special.

:)

Glad you enjoyed it! To me perhaps the most powerful moment is after Gunther describes Brünnhilde to Siegfried right after he has lost his memory and Siegfried repeats his every word like trying to remember something crucially important:

"Auf Felsen hoch ihr sitz" - "Auf Felsen hoch ihr sitz?"
"Ein Feuer umbrennt den Saal" - "Ein Feuer umbrennt den Saal?"
"Nur wer durch das Feuer bricht" - "Nur wer durch das Feuer bricht?"
"Darf Brünnhildes Freier sein!"

Be prepared, the first scene in act two is the most surreal and terrifyingly awesome moment in the whole Ring.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 08, 2012, 11:01:08 AM
Quote from: Alberich on May 08, 2012, 10:51:19 AM
Be prepared, the first scene in act two is the most surreal and terrifyingly awesome moment in the whole Ring.

;D

And what about the final scene then, from Siegfried's Funeral March to the end? One of the most thrilling, powerful moments of the Tetralogy, such absolutely haunting, beautiful music!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on May 08, 2012, 11:09:59 AM
Quote from: Alberich on May 08, 2012, 10:51:19 AM
Glad you enjoyed it! To me perhaps the most powerful moment is after Gunther describes Brünnhilde to Siegfried right after he has lost his memory and Siegfried repeats his every word like trying to remember something crucially important:

"Auf Felsen hoch ihr sitz" - "Auf Felsen hoch ihr sitz?"
"Ein Feuer umbrennt den Saal" - "Ein Feuer umbrennt den Saal?"
"Nur wer durch das Feuer bricht" - "Nur wer durch das Feuer bricht?"
"Darf Brünnhildes Freier sein!"

Be prepared, the first scene in act two is the most surreal and terrifyingly awesome moment in the whole Ring.
Thank you! :) Oh yes, that was a very moving moment! Very beautiful.
I shall look forward to that! :)

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 08, 2012, 12:08:06 PM
Quote from: Alberich on Today at 20:51:19 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=113.msg627521#msg627521)
Be prepared, the first scene in act two is the most surreal and terrifyingly awesome moment in the whole Ring.



Agreed. I remember listening to it in the living room with head phones on. It was already night, not many lamps burning, and I suddenly realised what a frightening scene I was hearing, and how tragic Hagen is.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on May 08, 2012, 12:38:00 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 08, 2012, 12:08:06 PM
Quote from: Alberich on Today at 20:51:19 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=113.msg627521#msg627521)
Be prepared, the first scene in act two is the most surreal and terrifyingly awesome moment in the whole Ring.



Agreed. I remember listening to it in the living room with head phones on. It was already night, not many lamps burning, and I suddenly realised what a frightening scene I was hearing, and how tragic Hagen is.


This certainly sounds incredibly exciting...!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on May 08, 2012, 07:00:44 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 08, 2012, 03:08:49 AM
Oehms will release all three -- recorded live at the Frankfurt Opera in concert performances. (Incidentally I was just at "Das Liebesverbot" last week.)
That said, the Sawallisch Recordings from the last big anniversary ('83) on Orfeo are quite good, too.

Thanks.  In fact, it was your mention of attending Liebesverbot that put the idea in my head in the first place.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on May 09, 2012, 12:01:27 PM
Just back from the second act of Gotterdammerung. Absolutely thrilling, amazing music!!!! The atmosphere at the opening and in the first few sections was certainly rather frightening! You were all right about that! ;) And the ending was so exciting! Brilliant brilliant brilliant brilliant music! I had to repeat the last two minutes as I loved it and was so excited by it! The vocal writing around here really moved me. :)

I am very, very excited to hear the last act. Will probably be on Sunday that I get to listen to, looking forward to hearing it very much!!!!! :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 09, 2012, 12:07:12 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on May 09, 2012, 12:01:27 PM
Just back from the second act of Gotterdammerung. Absolutely thrilling, amazing music!!!! The atmosphere at the opening and in the first few sections was certainly rather frightening! You were all right about that! ;) And the ending was so exciting! Brilliant brilliant brilliant brilliant music! I had to repeat the last two minutes as I loved it and was so excited by it! The vocal writing around here really moved me. :)

Could I not agree with this? ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 09, 2012, 01:09:35 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on Today at 22:01:27 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=113.msg627850#msg627850)
Just back from the second act of Gotterdammerung. Absolutely thrilling, amazing music!!!! The atmosphere at the opening and in the first few sections was certainly rather frightening! You were all right about that! ;)



I hope you listened with one of your parents.  ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on May 09, 2012, 01:54:13 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on May 09, 2012, 12:07:12 PM
Could I not agree with this? ;D

:D

Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 09, 2012, 01:09:35 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on Today at 22:01:27 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=113.msg627850#msg627850)
Just back from the second act of Gotterdammerung. Absolutely thrilling, amazing music!!!! The atmosphere at the opening and in the first few sections was certainly rather frightening! You were all right about that! ;)



I hope you listened with one of your parents.  ;D


haha ;) I was brave enough to listen to it just myself! ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kaergaard on May 09, 2012, 07:31:22 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 07, 2012, 07:02:41 PM
That was the lead up to my question:
Does anyone know of new recordings or new re-releases that might be forthcoming for "the anniversary year"?  I'm quite willing to wait for these if something good is in the offing.

Try ArkivMusic! A DVD of Rienzi of the life performance at the Deutsche Oper Berlin in 2010. Terrific acting and singing!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kaergaard on May 09, 2012, 07:33:29 PM
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=513473
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on May 09, 2012, 08:06:52 PM
Quote from: kaergaard on May 09, 2012, 07:33:29 PM
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=513473

Severe cuts to the score but not to the price.  Thanks, but I'll pass on that one.   
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on May 10, 2012, 07:51:22 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 09, 2012, 08:06:52 PM
Severe cuts to the score but not to the price.  Thanks, but I'll pass on that one.   

It might be pointed out that
a.) Rienzi was never performed without cuts. Ever.
b.) Rienzi cannot be performed without cuts anymore, since the score no longer exists... either hidden in an archive in Moscow or burned along with Hitler.
c.) That the mere wish to see / hear Rienzi without cuts strikes me as masochistic to a worrisome degree.  ;)

That said, the fairly complete premiere performance still lasted over six hours (something like 4 hours net-music)... and was by far the greatest success Wagner had until the Munich premiere of Die Meistersinger.

A line from a Gramophone reviewer (about Hollreiser's recording -- still my go-to version until the new one on Oehms comes out) applies: "[A] more complete recording ...is possible, if not especially desirable..."
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on May 10, 2012, 08:27:22 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 10, 2012, 07:51:22 AM
It might be pointed out that
a.) Rienzi was never performed without cuts. Ever.
b.) Rienzi cannot be performed without cuts anymore, since the score no longer exists... either hidden in an archive in Moscow or burned along with Hitler.
c.) That the mere wish to see / hear Rienzi without cuts strikes me as masochistic to a worrisome degree.  ;)

That said, the fairly complete premiere performance still lasted over six hours (something like 4 hours net-music)... and was by far the greatest success Wagner had until the Munich premiere of Die Meistersinger.

A line from a Gramophone reviewer (about Hollreiser's recording -- still my go-to version until the new one on Oehms comes out) applies: "[A] more complete recording ...is possible, if not especially desirable..."

Well, unlike Dresden theater audiences, I could listen to it over two evenings and not pay twice. 
However, since the likelihood of me getting two recordings of Rienzi is considerably less than many other operas, it makes sense to make sure that the performance I get is at least relatively complete--and certainly not one that seems to cut out an hour and half worth of the music.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on May 10, 2012, 11:15:55 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 10, 2012, 08:27:22 AM
Well, unlike Dresden theater audiences, I could listen to it over two evenings and not pay twice. 

Even the plans to have Rienzi shown on two consecutive nights never included the plan to charge full intermission twice. At least I can't find anything that confirms that MusicWeb 'factoid'.

QuoteHowever, since the likelihood of me getting two recordings of Rienzi is considerably less than many other operas, it makes sense to make sure that the performance I get is at least relatively complete--and certainly not one that seems to cut out an hour and half worth of the music.

"Worth" being the key-word here.  ;)

But I hear you. You will know best what you want, and what not. Though ultimately it's the enjoyment of the thing that matters, I assume. A drab but complete (if it were possible) recording of Rienzi would be less to the point than one that is cut but hot stuff. ("The food is horrible here!" "Yes, and the portions are so small.")  I certainly feel that way about Handel operas.
I understand that recordings have changed our attitude from cutting as an essential element of performing opera to barbarian anathema of some alleged fidelity... but regular attendance of live performances usually tends to correct that. I've never sat in an opera that wasn't long enough.

Finally: If you don't want to wait two years (performance in 2013, presumed release in early 2014 or very late 2013) I'd recommend  the Hollreiser recording (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006ROBT6W/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B006ROBT6W). It only has one realistic rival (Sawallisch 1983, Orfeo) and is a very fine compromise... the easy first (and only, as you realistically say) choice.

For Die Feen and Das Liebesverbot, where there is no such happy alternative to Sawallisch's live recordings of the early Triology on Orfeo, I would probably wait. Die Feen should be released any time now, I reckon (unless they're holding out to release as a set, which I can't believe but could have confirmed/clarified), and Das Liebesverbot early 2013. The productions from Oehms and the Frankfurt Opera are excellent; their Palestrina (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B006P5U6U8/goodmusicguide-20) is by MILES the best recording of that opera (esp. if you take SQ into consideration), their url=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001U1LA2K/goodmusicguide-20]Lear[/url][/i], which I also heard live, was very well captured. (Admittedly those two come from a different venue, the Opera House, but I don't see why they shouldn't be able to capture the orchestra as well or better in the space of the Alte Oper. (That is where Denon recorded all those Inbal performances...)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kaergaard on May 10, 2012, 02:45:12 PM
I am surprised that even you, Dear Jens, don't have the interest and courage - Neugierde; - to try the 2010 Deutsche Opera Berlin performence! Contemporary directing of course, maybe not fitting in with the taste of old folks!  :-*
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: BMW on May 10, 2012, 02:58:05 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 10, 2012, 11:15:55 AM
Finally: If you don't want to wait two years (performance in 2013, presumed release in early 2014 or very late 2013) I'd recommend  the Hollreiser recording (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006ROBT6W/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B006ROBT6W). It only has one realistic rival (Sawallisch 1983, Orfeo) and is a very fine compromise... the easy first (and only, as you realistically say) choice.

The Edward Downes recording is very good, if you can get a hold of a copy (just saw that it is unavailable on Amazon).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kaergaard on May 10, 2012, 03:31:21 PM
I just refreshed my memory of the Philipp Stölzl production! The incredibly agile performance of Torsten Kerl - Rienzi -  during the well-known overture to Rienzi is worth every penny of the sound and video high quality of the Unitel Classica recording.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on May 10, 2012, 03:40:06 PM
Quote from: kaergaard on May 10, 2012, 02:45:12 PM
I am surprised that even you, Dear Jens, don't have the interest and courage - Neugierde; - to try the 2010 Deutsche Opera Berlin performence! Contemporary directing of course, maybe not fitting in with the taste of old folks!  :-*

huh? what ever gave you that idea? i was trying to make the case for that production (if only on principle, since I've not seen it). and what does any of it have to do with courage?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on May 10, 2012, 06:00:45 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 10, 2012, 11:15:55 AM

But I hear you. You will know best what you want, and what not. Though ultimately it's the enjoyment of the thing that matters, I assume. A drab but complete (if it were possible) recording of Rienzi would be less to the point than one that is cut but hot stuff. ("The food is horrible here!" "Yes, and the portions are so small.")  I certainly feel that way about Handel operas.
I understand that recordings have changed our attitude from cutting as an essential element of performing opera to barbarian anathema of some alleged fidelity... but regular attendance of live performances usually tends to correct that. I've never sat in an opera that wasn't long enough.



Thanks for the pointers. I'll certainly go for the Hollreiser in the near future. 
As to complete recordings--in these days of programmable CD players and Ipods, if a recording is too complete, the listener can make at least some cuts by programming or playlisting in a way that skips the tracks they don't like--and not have to depend on the recording producer's judgment of what to keep in.  (Plus of course they know what's being left out, which isn't always the case with some incomplete recordings.)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kaergaard on May 10, 2012, 06:34:52 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 10, 2012, 03:40:06 PM
and what does any of it have to do with courage?

It takes courage to assign the old, remembered, treasured performance to the shelf, resting place of the other tried and true ones, and then courageously spend your money on recorded efforts of new, young directors, conductors and performers. You might even like their ideas, approve of them, and then gloat about your new discovery by posting your opinion at a classical music forum!   ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on May 11, 2012, 12:27:12 AM
Quote from: kaergaard on May 10, 2012, 06:34:52 PM
It takes courage to assign the old, remembered, treasured performance to the shelf, resting place of the other tried and true ones, and then courageously spend your money on recorded efforts of new, young directors, conductors and performers. You might even like their ideas, approve of them, and then gloat about your new discovery by posting your opinion at a classical music forum!   ;)

Well, I thought OCCDCD takes care of that, not courage. Fortunately (?) your scenario doesn't really apply to me anyway... not the least because I'd get plenty new exposure to new things from live performances, if I wasn't already inundated with new recordings and DVDs.
Your point has merit in general, but if you're stating it in gentle opposition of what you presume my tastes to be, it'd be ironic -- since I'd like to think I'm rather vocal about debunking "Golden Age" thinking (i.e. with singers), and am even more vocal about the pernicious falsehood of "tradition" in opera productions. One example (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/02/holy-german-art-katharina-wagners.html), among many.

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 10, 2012, 06:00:45 PM
As to complete recordings--in these days of programmable CD players and Ipods, if a recording is too complete, the listener can make at least some cuts by programming or playlisting in a way that skips the tracks they don't like--and not have to depend on the recording producer's judgment of what to keep in.

Programmable CD players have been around for 20+ years -- and I've heard the argument (and made it myself) that we can just re-program the inner movements of the Mahler Sixth or create our playlists or skip one piece after the conclusion of another (when silence is merited). And yet I've never actually done that. And I don't know anyone who has actually ever done that. I, and everyone I know, basically plop the CD in the player and press Play. A generalization, of course, but I reckon it's comes close to how most music listeners operate.

Now I am wondering if that is actually changing with media that contain the music in digital form directly... iPods or Spotify et al. The user is already much more closer to  - and intuned with the state of the music as a series of individual tracks... so it would seem likely that there is much more actual futzing around with tracks and playlists. I know even my Spotify behavior is defined by making playlists (for others or myself), not listening to straight albums.

(That said, in a Wagner opera -- unlike a Handel opera -- it will be difficult to make those cuts yourself.)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Leo K. on May 13, 2012, 07:39:16 AM
I've been trying to grasp Wagner for years. His Funeral music for Siegfried is among the most sublime music I've ever heard, and it's even made me cry on occasion, which is very rare for me to do while listening to music.

I've very much enjoyed Levine's Ring Cycle, which I watched during it's first airing on PBS many years ago. At that time, I recorded it with a cassette player while it played, and returned to this Ring to soak up the amazing melodies and orchestration. I no longer have those cassettes, and never have returned to this cycle, which is unfortunate because I could have learned and got familiar with the Ring if I would have stayed with it. My memories are fond of listening to Siegfried and Gotterdammerung in particular.

Eventually, I got the Solti set on LP, but it never grabbed me like I had hoped it would. After awhile, the Ring's length seemed like a barrier to learning this work, and it dropped off my musical radar. I still listen to excerpts, but I yearn to know this cycle, as well as Wagner's other great works.

I now have the Karajan set, and I will start listening in earnest, knowing it will take some time.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51609G6GRVL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 13, 2012, 08:10:42 AM
 :D

I hope you'll like the Karajan set, maybe it's the finest recording of the Ring Cycle ever made!!!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Leo K. on May 13, 2012, 09:09:33 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on May 13, 2012, 08:10:42 AM
:D

I hope you'll like the Karajan set, maybe it's the finest recording of the Ring Cycle ever made!!!

Thanks! I'm really, really looking forward to making my way through this account!  8)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on May 13, 2012, 11:51:47 AM
Finished the Ring Cycle today....  What a journey it has been! By the end, I couldn't control my emotions and really was in tears. So incredibly beautiful, glorious, powerful... so moving! Such a perfect ending. I have to say that I was in tears for quite a lot of the third act of Gotterdammerung, I was moved by so much of it! The funeral music was so glorious!

I would have to say that Gotterdammerung is my favourite of the Ring Cycle. I loved every second of it!

Such an amazing musical journey...

And the Karajan performance was absolutely sublime! I enjoyed it extremely much. Very expressive, beautiful performances. Extremely glad to have had it as my first Ring Cycle! On reading your previous post, Leo, I hope you enjoy it!

Thank you all for guiding me along the way! :)

LONG LIVE WAGNER!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 13, 2012, 12:12:50 PM
"Hei! Daniel gehört nun der Niblungen Hort!" :D

Those words couldn't make me happier, I'm so so glad you've loved the Ring Cycle, one of the most beautiful, powerful and thrilling works ever composed! And the Karajan recording is absolutely gorgeous, absolutely impressive and passionate! :D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on May 13, 2012, 12:19:23 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on May 13, 2012, 12:12:50 PM
"Hei! Daniel gehört nun der Niblungen Hort!" :D

Those words couldn't make me happier, I'm so so glad you've loved the Ring Cycle, one of the most beautiful, powerful and thrilling works ever composed! And the Karajan recording is absolutely gorgeous, absolutely impressive and passionate! :D

:D

Thank you, Ilaria! I agree, surely one of the greatest masterpieces of all time!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 13, 2012, 12:40:57 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on May 13, 2012, 12:19:23 PM
:D

Thank you, Ilaria! I agree, surely one of the greatest masterpieces of all time!
Quote from: madaboutmahler on May 13, 2012, 11:51:47 AM
LONG LIVE WAGNER!

:D

I absolutely agree with you! Now I expect you will dive into Tristan und Isolde! ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on May 13, 2012, 12:44:07 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on May 13, 2012, 12:40:57 PM
:D

I absolutely agree with you! Now I expect you will dive into Tristan und Isolde! ;D

I am certainly very excited to hear more Wagner operas, Ilaria!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Elgarian on May 13, 2012, 12:55:46 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on May 13, 2012, 11:51:47 AM
Finished the Ring Cycle today....  What a journey it has been! By the end, I couldn't control my emotions and really was in tears. So incredibly beautiful, glorious, powerful... so moving! Such a perfect ending. I have to say that I was in tears for quite a lot of the third act of Gotterdammerung, I was moved by so much of it! The funeral music was so glorious!

There is simply nothing like it, is there? If you follow a similar pattern to me, the Ring will now forever be a kind of backdrop; sometimes more evident, sometimes less so, but never absent. Always there, colouring everything I do. I was somewhat unusual I think, because for me, nothing ever lived up to the Ring, even though I tried Tristan (pursued pretty hard), and the others (much less so). And to this day, I remain a completely besotted Ring fan, rather than a Wagner fan, as such.

Great to hear about the success of your journey, Daniel. You'll never be the same again.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on May 13, 2012, 01:09:18 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on May 13, 2012, 12:55:46 PM
There is simply nothing like it, is there? If you follow a similar pattern to me, the Ring will now forever be a kind of backdrop; sometimes more evident, sometimes less so, but never absent. Always there, colouring everything I do. I was somewhat unusual I think, because for me, nothing ever lived up to the Ring, even though I tried Tristan (pursued pretty hard), and the others (much less so). And to this day, I remain a completely besotted Ring fan, rather than a Wagner fan, as such.

Great to hear about the success of your journey, Daniel. You'll never be the same again.

Certainly - such an amazing piece! I shall definitely be keen to hear the other Wagner operas, and if they can even come close to being as amazing as the Ring then I am sure that I will love them! Based on excerpts I've heard, I would be particularly interested to hear Parsifal, Lohengrin and Die Meistersinger. :)

Thank you very much! :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 13, 2012, 01:32:59 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on May 13, 2012, 12:55:46 PM
There is simply nothing like it, is there? If you follow a similar pattern to me, the Ring will now forever be a kind of backdrop; sometimes more evident, sometimes less so, but never absent. Always there, colouring everything I do. I was somewhat unusual I think, because for me, nothing ever lived up to the Ring, even though I tried Tristan (pursued pretty hard), and the others (much less so). And to this day, I remain a completely besotted Ring fan, rather than a Wagner fan, as such.

Great to hear about the success of your journey, Daniel. You'll never be the same again.

:D

By the way, with the last phrase, you made me think of Nietzsche's words: "Wagner is not a syllogism, but a disease" (althought Nietzsche meant that in a negative way).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on May 13, 2012, 01:43:32 PM
I think that Nietzsche is more likely to make you queezy.

My own advice would be to dive into the overheated world of Tristan. Last week I listened to a stocking live Karajan performance from around 1953 with Model and Vinay. It sweeps along in an extraordinary way, compelling and dramatic.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 13, 2012, 02:27:55 PM
Don't you like Nietzsche's book, Mike? So far I've read Hecce Homo, Die Geburt der Tragödie aus dem Geiste der Musik, Die fröhliche Wissenschaft, Nietzsche contra Wagner and Wagner in Bayreuth, definitely interesting.

I agree about Tristan, no other opera can compete with it for intensity, orchestral brilliance, harmonic richness and overwhelming passion, it's absolutely a masterpiece. Apart from the Karajan, also both the Furtwangler and the Kleiber are definitely superb recordings.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on May 14, 2012, 12:47:07 AM
Thank you for the advice, I shall definitely be keen to listen to Tristan und Isolde!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on May 16, 2012, 08:45:19 AM
Glad you enjoyed Ring, madaboutmahler! Though to me Solti's version has always been my favorite. While I admire Karajan too, to me Solti is the ultimate Wagner conductor, always taking tempos closest to my ideal and Neidlinger and Hotter are best Alberich and Wotan I've ever heard. I also cried many times during Götterdämmerung, but the biggest tear jerker to me were the last loud Valhalla Motives when the gods are destroyed along with Valhalla and though he never makes appearance in this part I can imagine Wotan accepting and embracing his fate. And to think that the last motive heard in the Ring is instrumental version of Sieglindes "O hehrstes Wunder".

I also suggest Tristan for your next Wagner opera, many think that it's perhaps the most "wagnerian" of all his works. My favorite recordings of Tristan are Furtwängler, Solti and Kleiber. But feel free to pick anyone you want!

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 16, 2012, 09:18:02 AM
Quote from: Alberich on May 16, 2012, 08:45:19 AM
I also suggest Tristan for your next Wagner opera, many think that it's perhaps the most "wagnerian" of all his works. My favorite recordings of Tristan are Furtwängler, Solti and Kleiber. But feel free to pick anyone you want!

Furtwangler's Tristan is absolutely superb, maybe the best recording of that opera I've ever heard, followed a little step backward by the Karajan and the Kleiber.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on May 16, 2012, 09:31:51 AM
Quote from: Alberich on May 16, 2012, 08:45:19 AM
Glad you enjoyed Ring, madaboutmahler! Though to me Solti's version has always been my favorite. While I admire Karajan too, to me Solti is the ultimate Wagner conductor, always taking tempos closest to my ideal and Neidlinger and Hotter are best Alberich and Wotan I've ever heard. I also cried many times during Götterdämmerung, but the biggest tear jerker to me were the last loud Valhalla Motives when the gods are destroyed along with Valhalla and though he never makes appearance in this part I can imagine Wotan accepting and embracing his fate. And to think that the last motive heard in the Ring is instrumental version of Sieglindes "O hehrstes Wunder".

I also suggest Tristan for your next Wagner opera, many think that it's perhaps the most "wagnerian" of all his works. My favorite recordings of Tristan are Furtwängler, Solti and Kleiber. But feel free to pick anyone you want!

Thank you, I shall certainly be keen to listen to Solti's Ring at some point! I cried many times in Gotterdammerung too. The ending surely is simply perfect, so incredibly glorious, powerful and heavenly! :)

And thank you for the Tristan recommedations also, I have heard many great things about the Furtwangler so will probably get that recording. The prelude to Tristan is so incredibly beautiful, so I can certainly imagine the whole opera being absolutely stunning!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on May 16, 2012, 09:51:45 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on May 16, 2012, 09:31:51 AM
Thank you, I shall certainly be keen to listen to Solti's Ring at some point! I cried many times in Gotterdammerung too. The ending surely is simply perfect, so incredibly glorious, powerful and heavenly! :)

And thank you for the Tristan recommedations also, I have heard many great things about the Furtwangler so will probably get that recording. The prelude to Tristan is so incredibly beautiful, so I can certainly imagine the whole opera being absolutely stunning!

Furtwangler's is a great recording ("Best of 2004"http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/12/best-recordings-in-2004.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/12/best-recordings-in-2004.html)), but as often the case with such classic greats, it's overrated.

Depending on how important better-than-acceptable sound quality is to you, there's plenty of good stuff out there that was recorded in the last 30 years.

This has been my favorite for some time:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/619k5PoPpbL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
R. Wagner,
Tristan
Barenboim
Meier, Jerusalem, Lipovsek,
Struckmann, Salminen et al.

Warner (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000SNQ/goodmusicguide-20)

And the price if finally down, now that a budget re-issue is on the market (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0055CJ98W/goodmusicguide-20). (Nice presentation... well worth getting used over the new re-issue, I'd say.)

Also worth considering:

Kleiber (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0006ZFQP8/goodmusicguide-20) (leaner, ligther than the stereotype of Tristan)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/07/legacy-of-carlos-kleiber-on-disc.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/07/legacy-of-carlos-kleiber-on-disc.html)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/03/dg-originals-review.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/03/dg-originals-review.html)
Böhm (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GXS/goodmusicguide-20) (a classic, but in much better sound than Furtwangler -- and with Nielsson & Windgassen at their best)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/01/birgit-nilsson-on-disc.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/01/birgit-nilsson-on-disc.html)


Actually, those are pretty much the only ones (on CD) that I'd recommend as a first T&I.

Others that are good, but not 'first-on-the-shelves' material:
Thielemann http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/07/dip-your-ears-no-7.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/07/dip-your-ears-no-7.html)
Bernstein http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/08/hildegard-behrens-1937-2009-on-record.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/08/hildegard-behrens-1937-2009-on-record.html)
Karajan
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on May 16, 2012, 09:55:18 AM
Thank you for the feedback on Tristan recordings, Jens. Interestingly, the Barenboim came out as the top recommendation on the BBC 'CD Review: Building a Library' survey of all the Tristan recordings. So, it is quite a temptation!
Title: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Leo K. on May 16, 2012, 10:05:39 AM
Thanks from me as well Jens, I actually just received the Barenboim, so I'm excited to jump in!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 17, 2012, 01:43:23 PM
I just want to add my voice to the chorus, urging Daniel to listen to 'Tristan' next. Yes! My first experience was the Böhm (Bayreuth, 1966), and I still rate it very highly. Furtwängler is tremendous, of course. You can't go wrong with either of them. Barenboim I'll have to check out...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 17, 2012, 02:01:01 PM
You've already got "The Flying Dutchman" though, Daniel; it's absolutely worth hearing, I think you should have a listen to that before diving into Tristan und Isolde. Anyway, no problem if you prefer to listen to Tristan before..... :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 17, 2012, 02:09:20 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 17, 2012, 01:43:23 PM
I just want to add my voice to the chorus, urging Daniel to listen to 'Tristan' next. Yes! My first experience was the Böhm (Bayreuth, 1966), and I still rate it very highly. Furtwängler is tremendous, of course. You can't go wrong with either of them. Barenboim I'll have to check out...

Agreed; the Böhm is a marvelous recording.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on May 17, 2012, 02:17:24 PM
Thank you all for your opinions. I am certainly keen to hear both operas... perhaps once I get the recording of Tristan und Isolde, I'll flip a coin to see which one to listen to first! ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2012, 02:58:06 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on May 13, 2012, 08:10:42 AM
:D

I hope you'll like the Karajan set, maybe it's the finest recording of the Ring Cycle ever made!!!

It's certainly my favorite Ring out of the five I own. :) One of most incredible musical experiences I've had in quite some time. Bohm's Tristan und Isolde and Karajan's Parsifal were two other unforgettable musical experiences.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 17, 2012, 03:04:56 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 17, 2012, 02:58:06 PM
It's certainly my favorite Ring out of the five I own. :) One of most incredible musical experiences I've had in quite some time. Bohm's Tristan und Isolde and Karajan's Parsifal were two other unforgettable musical experiences.

I absolutely agree with you, John!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 17, 2012, 03:13:37 PM
Seconded!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2012, 10:02:04 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on May 17, 2012, 03:04:56 PM
I absolutely agree with you, John!

I knew you would. ;) :D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2012, 10:02:51 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 17, 2012, 03:13:37 PM
Seconded!

I knew you would too, Johan! ;) ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Leo K. on May 18, 2012, 10:50:52 AM
Wow, I've been stuck in a Wagner loop listening to the first two disks of Karajan's Die Walkure, and I'm also halfway through Furtwangler's Tristan und Isolde. This is RAVISHING stuff!!!


Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 18, 2012, 11:14:57 AM
Quote from: Leo K on May 18, 2012, 10:50:52 AM
Wow, I've been stuck in a Wagner loop listening to the first two disks of Karajan's Die Walkure, and I'm also halfway through Furtwangler's Tristan und Isolde. This is RAVISHING stuff!!!

Agreed; Karajan and Furtwangler were superb wagnerian conductors, you can never be disappointed by their recordings! Karajan's Ring Cycle is absolutely brilliant and haunting, full of beauty and power; Furtwangler's Tristan is maybe the best recording of that opera ever made: he was able to express deeply all the overwhelming passion, the emotional intensity of Wagner's concept of infinite melody.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Leo K. on June 03, 2012, 11:56:15 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on May 18, 2012, 11:14:57 AM
Agreed; Karajan and Furtwangler were superb wagnerian conductors, you can never be disappointed by their recordings! Karajan's Ring Cycle is absolutely brilliant and haunting, full of beauty and power; Furtwangler's Tristan is maybe the best recording of that opera ever made: he was able to express deeply all the overwhelming passion, the emotional intensity of Wagner's concept of infinite melody.

I'm still under the spell of Karajan's Ring cycle...now, I'm almost done hearing the Ring, and totally transfixed by this sound world of ecstasy.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 03, 2012, 12:08:13 PM
Quote from: Leo K on June 03, 2012, 11:56:15 AM
I'm still under the spell of Karajan's Ring cycle...now, I'm almost done hearing the Ring, and totally transfixed by this sound world of ecstasy.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/Wagnerthumbsup.jpg)


Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Coopmv on June 03, 2012, 12:13:21 PM
Quote from: Leo K on June 03, 2012, 11:56:15 AM
I'm still under the spell of Karajan's Ring cycle...now, I'm almost done hearing the Ring, and totally transfixed by this sound world of ecstasy.

I bought my CD set back in December 2010 but have so far only listened through Das Rheingold.  I bought the Karajan Ring on LP back in the late 80's or early 90's.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Elgarian on June 03, 2012, 12:15:04 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514EexJqIBL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I was shocked the other day to discover that Janowski's Ring cycle could now be had at an absurdly low price (£22.77 at Amazon UK), so asked for it as a birthday present and am fairly confident of getting it. Judging from what I read, I doubt it'll become a favourite, but at this price, heck - it's seems daft not to have one.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: mc ukrneal on June 03, 2012, 12:21:09 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on June 03, 2012, 12:15:04 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514EexJqIBL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I was shocked the other day to discover that Janowski's Ring cycle could now be had at an absurdly low price (£22.77 at Amazon UK), so asked for it as a birthday present and am fairly confident of getting it. Judging from what I read, I doubt it'll become a favourite, but at this price, heck - it's seems daft not to have one.
Generally, it's considered pretty good, with quite a deep cast. It's the Brunnhilde that is often cited as the weak link, but perhaps you will be happy with it. At that price, cannot really go wrong. Let us know what you think.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Elgarian on June 03, 2012, 01:27:43 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on June 03, 2012, 12:21:09 PM
It's the Brunnhilde that is often cited as the weak link

Yes, I know, and it may prove a problem for me.   I know Altmeyer's Sieglinde in the Boulez Ring and think she's magnificent. But I'm very much a Nilsson/Hunter/Jones fan when it comes to Brunnhilde, and I don't respond too well to Dernesch's Brunnhilde in Karajan's Ring - which may be indicative of a disappointment in store. But regardless of those considerations, I gather from my reading that Janowski takes a distinctively different approach to the whole Ring, and I'd like to hear for myself what that's all about. As you say, at this price there's nothing much to lose, and I certainly intend to comment as and when I'm able.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on June 04, 2012, 03:19:55 AM
Quote from: Leo K on June 03, 2012, 11:56:15 AM
I'm still under the spell of Karajan's Ring cycle...now, I'm almost done hearing the Ring, and totally transfixed by this sound world of ecstasy.

Totally agree, no doubt! ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on June 12, 2012, 02:48:34 AM


Childlike, not Childish Siegfried: Munich's Ring Cycle


(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RlxMDTtkjuM/T9cSMwIlSNI/AAAAAAAACYQ/BGxPNHV0JqI/s400/Wagner_Ring_BStOp_Siegfried.png)

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/06/childlike-not-childish-siegfried.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/06/childlike-not-childish-siegfried.html)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on June 23, 2012, 08:25:47 AM

A Spring's Worth of Work, out in print, at last:

The annual Almanac of the Society of Friends of Bayreuth (http://www.freunde-bayreuth.org/html/engl.html)
(200 pages of interviews, essays in English & German + extra book with French digest)

(https://p.twimg.com/Av9C8IHCMAADKEB.jpg)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on July 20, 2012, 02:25:36 AM
- 5 days to the Bayreuth Festival :)

This year the programme includes: Der Fliegende Holländer, Tannhäuser, Lohengrin, Tristan und Isolde and Parsifal. I'm really looking forward to listening to the operas when they shall be broadcast!!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on July 20, 2012, 09:37:10 AM




The Cocooned Cadaver: Kriegenburg's Walküre

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fb2tknYe57Q/UAl2qh9xDQI/AAAAAAAADNI/kih8cR0zDkI/s400/Wagner_Ring_BStOp_Walkure.png)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/the-cocooned-cadaver-kriegenburgs.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/the-cocooned-cadaver-kriegenburgs.html)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on July 20, 2012, 09:59:08 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 20, 2012, 09:37:10 AM



The Cocooned Cadaver: Kriegenburg's Walküre

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fb2tknYe57Q/UAl2qh9xDQI/AAAAAAAADNI/kih8cR0zDkI/s400/Wagner_Ring_BStOp_Walkure.png)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/the-cocooned-cadaver-kriegenburgs.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/the-cocooned-cadaver-kriegenburgs.html)

Makes me curious to see it, actually.
But either you have a mix up in names to fix, or the director was being even more creative than you thought:
Quote
It starts with a bewilderingly clumsy slow-motion fight sequence of Siegfried vs. a posse of Hunding-henchmen ninjas during the overture
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on July 20, 2012, 10:12:42 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 20, 2012, 09:59:08 AM
Makes me curious to see it, actually.
But either you have a mix up in names to fix, or the director was being even more creative than you thought:

Ah, thanks for that! Caught almost just in time.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: The new erato on July 21, 2012, 08:14:10 AM
Another edition of the Solti:

http://www.mdt.co.uk/blog/latest-news/der-ring-des-nibelungen-solti-limited-edition-decca/ (http://www.mdt.co.uk/blog/latest-news/der-ring-des-nibelungen-solti-limited-edition-decca/)

Not exactly a bargain issue though.

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/SoltiFull.jpg)

2 CDs:

An Introduction to Der Ring des Nibelungen by Wagner scholar Deryck Cooke
+ book with spoken text and music examples

DVD:
The Golden Ring – the acclaimed BBC documentary directed by Humphrey Burton and filmed during Götterdämmerung sessions

CD
Wagner Overtures + Siegfried Idyll + Kinderkatchechismus
Recordings made in Vienna during the years when the Ring was in progress

Ring Resounding
John Culshaw's fascinating account of the entire Ring project from inception to completion – first published in 1967 and long out of print – it is an integral element in this special edition.
Exclusive to this edition

Blu-ray disc
The complete Ring on one disc presented as lossless 24-bit files
Exclusive to this edition

The Ride of the Valkyries
Special facsimile of one of Sir Georg Solti's working scores
with his markings explained and commentary by Charles Kaye
Exclusive to this edition

Art prints
5 high-quality art prints of recording session photos
Exclusive to this edition

Gramophone
Special 40 page brochure with facsimiles of original DECCA advertisements and reviews
Exclusive to this edition

As well as the remastered 14 discs.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: nico1616 on July 21, 2012, 01:58:13 PM
Quote from: The new erato on July 21, 2012, 08:14:10 AM
Another edition of the Solti:

http://www.mdt.co.uk/blog/latest-news/der-ring-des-nibelungen-solti-limited-edition-decca/ (http://www.mdt.co.uk/blog/latest-news/der-ring-des-nibelungen-solti-limited-edition-decca/)

Not exactly a bargain issue though.

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/SoltiFull.jpg)

2 CDs:

An Introduction to Der Ring des Nibelungen by Wagner scholar Deryck Cooke
+ book with spoken text and music examples

DVD:
The Golden Ring – the acclaimed BBC documentary directed by Humphrey Burton and filmed during Götterdämmerung sessions

CD
Wagner Overtures + Siegfried Idyll + Kinderkatchechismus
Recordings made in Vienna during the years when the Ring was in progress

Ring Resounding
John Culshaw's fascinating account of the entire Ring project from inception to completion – first published in 1967 and long out of print – it is an integral element in this special edition.
Exclusive to this edition

Blu-ray disc
The complete Ring on one disc presented as lossless 24-bit files
Exclusive to this edition

The Ride of the Valkyries
Special facsimile of one of Sir Georg Solti's working scores
with his markings explained and commentary by Charles Kaye
Exclusive to this edition

Art prints
5 high-quality art prints of recording session photos
Exclusive to this edition

Gramophone
Special 40 page brochure with facsimiles of original DECCA advertisements and reviews
Exclusive to this edition

As well as the remastered 14 discs.

My God, they sure how to make boxes tempting these days :o

However, I already spent that amount on Solti's Ring buying all the separate Ring boxes at full price.
But I never regretted it  :D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on July 25, 2012, 03:05:45 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on July 20, 2012, 02:25:36 AM
- 5 days to the Bayreuth Festival :)

This year the programme includes: Der Fliegende Holländer, Tannhäuser, Lohengrin, Tristan und Isolde and Parsifal. I'm really looking forward to listening to the operas when they shall be broadcast!!

The Bayreuth Festival starts today! First opera: Der Fliegende Holländer. ;D

http://www.br.de/radio/br-klassik/programmkalender/sendung346270.html (http://www.br.de/radio/br-klassik/programmkalender/sendung346270.html)

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on July 25, 2012, 05:28:36 AM



Bayreuth and its Swastikas


Dutchman Overboard

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NAZ4HFopKOY/UA_zpKqgbjI/AAAAAAAADX8/dbnHFIO4IdA/s1600/Hitler_Winifred_600.jpg)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/bayreuth-and-its-swastikas.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/bayreuth-and-its-swastikas.html)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on July 25, 2012, 08:03:27 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 25, 2012, 05:28:36 AM


Bayreuth and its Swastikas


Dutchman Overboard

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NAZ4HFopKOY/UA_zpKqgbjI/AAAAAAAADX8/dbnHFIO4IdA/s1600/Hitler_Winifred_600.jpg)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/bayreuth-and-its-swastikas.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/bayreuth-and-its-swastikas.html)

:'(
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on July 28, 2012, 03:03:28 AM
Fourth day of the Bayreuth Festival; today: Tannhäuser. ;D

For everyone who wants to have a listen to the performance:
http://www.br.de/radio/br-klassik/programmkalender/sendung348722.html (http://www.br.de/radio/br-klassik/programmkalender/sendung348722.html)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 28, 2012, 04:27:56 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 25, 2012, 05:28:36 AM


Bayreuth and its Swastikas


Dutchman Overboard

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NAZ4HFopKOY/UA_zpKqgbjI/AAAAAAAADX8/dbnHFIO4IdA/s1600/Hitler_Winifred_600.jpg)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/bayreuth-and-its-swastikas.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/bayreuth-and-its-swastikas.html)

And? That's all ? A 'no comment' post ?  ::)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 29, 2012, 05:41:48 AM
Quote from: André on July 28, 2012, 04:27:56 PM
And? That's all ? A 'no comment' post ?  ::)

I don't understand your post, André. Did you follow the links? There's more than a mere comment from Jens. There is an entire article on the controversy.

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: rw1883 on August 06, 2012, 02:35:46 PM
Since I only have Solti's Ring and Meistersinger, this set looks very good for $100 or so...

http://www.mdt.co.uk/wagner-the-operas-georg-solti-decca-36cds.html (http://www.mdt.co.uk/wagner-the-operas-georg-solti-decca-36cds.html)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on August 07, 2012, 03:06:40 AM
Quote from: rw1883 on August 06, 2012, 02:35:46 PM
Since I only have Solti's Ring and Meistersinger, this set looks very good for $100 or so...

http://www.mdt.co.uk/wagner-the-operas-georg-solti-decca-36cds.html (http://www.mdt.co.uk/wagner-the-operas-georg-solti-decca-36cds.html)

About Solti's Wagner's operas, Der Ring des Nibelungen, Tannhäuser and Parsifal are certainly fine choices, they're very powerful and hauntingly beautiful, and have a marvelous sound. I think there are better versions for Der fliegende Holländer, the Karajan first of all.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on August 07, 2012, 12:01:16 PM
I think the best Ring recording ever has never been heard.   

I have this DVD

[asin]B000YD7S12[/asin]

Karajan's film of Das Rheingold.  The film is a bit peculiar, although I like it.  But the soundtrack is actually from a live performance of Rheingold at the Salzburg festival from the early 1970's (not the DG studio recording from the 60's).  I'd say it is the best Rheingold I have heard.  Karajan was planning to do a series of film for the entire Ring, so I assume that he had the audio from live performances in the can for Walkure, Sigfried and Gotterdamerung.  But financing for the remaining films fell through and they were never made.  Where is that audio?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 23, 2012, 05:30:57 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on August 07, 2012, 12:01:16 PM
I think the best Ring recording ever has never been heard.   

I have this DVD

[asin]B000YD7S12[/asin]

Karajan's film of Das Rheingold.  The film is a bit peculiar, although I like it.  But the soundtrack is actually from a live performance of Rheingold at the Salzburg festival from the early 1970's (not the DG studio recording from the 60's).  I'd say it is the best Rheingold I have heard.  Karajan was planning to do a series of film for the entire Ring, so I assume that he had the audio from live performances in the can for Walkure, Sigfried and Gotterdamerung.  But financing for the remaining films fell through and they were never made.  Where is that audio?

Interesting question, and interesting topic. In the case of the Karajan Ring I don't think it matters a lot. Karajan belonged to the brand of control freak conductors (OK, that's about 2/3 of them) who were also unimpeachably narcissistic. IOW the difference between a studio or live performance is usually very slight. But I may be quite wrong. Usually in Karajan's case the differences stem from the singing/verbal expression from a different soloist. He did allow his soloists a lot of freedom.

Are these vids from a later date than the commercial audio only releases?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on August 23, 2012, 05:36:45 PM
Quote from: André on August 23, 2012, 05:30:57 PM
Interesting question, and interesting topic. In the case of the Karajan Ring I don't think it matters a lot. Karajan belonged to the brand of control freak conductors (OK, that's about 2/3 of them) who were also unimpeachably narcissistic. IOW the difference between a studio or live performance is usually very slight. But I may be quite wrong. Usually in Karajan's case the differences stem from the singing/verbal expression from a different soloist. He did allow his soloists a lot of freedom.

Are these vids from a later date than the commercial audio only releases?

There are some cases where Karajan records the piece 30 years later and it sounds identical, and others where he records the piece 5 years later and it is totally different.  In this case, it is a comparison between a live performance and a studio performance, and my limited experience is that Karajan is very different live than in the studio.  I found the live Rhinegold more enjoyable than the studio version, I don't know what the rest of it sounds like.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 23, 2012, 05:56:54 PM
Thanks Scarpia. I have a few Rings, but never got to listen to the whole Karajan offering. I'll try to see if I can get it for a good price. For a 4th Ring, price becomes a factor... :D. BUT: it definitely is my next one. Not being equipped technically and mentally for a dvd experience, I'll settle for the audio version.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on August 23, 2012, 06:09:30 PM
Quote from: André on August 23, 2012, 05:56:54 PM
Thanks Scarpia. I have a few Rings, but never got to listen to the whole Karajan offering. I'll try to see if I can get it for a good price. For a 4th Ring, price becomes a factor... :D. BUT: it definitely is my next one. Not being equipped technically and mentally for a dvd experience, I'll settle for the audio version.

If you don't have a DVD, you might consider the Levine/Met set (the old one) which follows Wagner's stage directions as literally as possible.  All those bits of orchestral music between scenes finally made sense to me after seeing what was supposed to be happening on stage at the time.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: eyeresist on August 23, 2012, 06:26:19 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on August 23, 2012, 06:09:30 PMIf you don't have a DVD, you might consider the Levine/Met set (the old one) which follows Wagner's stage directions as literally as possible.  All those bits of orchestral music between scenes finally made sense to me after seeing what was supposed to be happening on stage at the time.

A shame the video is outdated. A lavish traditional staging in high-def widescreen with surround sound would be ... awesome.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bigshot on August 25, 2012, 10:18:52 AM
I didn't care at all for Levine's conducting. He tends toward just treading water for long stretches.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Coopmv on August 25, 2012, 12:36:08 PM
Quote from: bigshot on August 25, 2012, 10:18:52 AM
I didn't care at all for Levine's conducting. He tends toward just treading water for long stretches.

You are not the only one.  I don't care for him as a conductor ...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: rw1883 on August 26, 2012, 03:25:36 PM
Speaking of Levine (and Luisi)...

http://www.crotchet.co.uk/734770.html?id=PMv3zaBG (http://www.crotchet.co.uk/734770.html?id=PMv3zaBG)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scarpia on August 26, 2012, 03:31:19 PM
Quote from: rw1883 on August 26, 2012, 03:25:36 PM
Speaking of Levine (and Luisi)...

http://www.crotchet.co.uk/734770.html?id=PMv3zaBG (http://www.crotchet.co.uk/734770.html?id=PMv3zaBG)

The "background" information they give is amusing.

QuoteThe most famous, the most performed, the most thrilling, and the most recorded opera cycle in music history...

Is there another opera cycle?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on August 26, 2012, 03:46:00 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 23, 2012, 06:26:19 PM
A shame the video is outdated. A lavish traditional staging in high-def widescreen with surround sound would be ... awesome.
CGI to the rescue! (Perhaps Peter Jackson & the LOTR crew could do the trick ... that is, if you don't mind them leaving out most of Götterdämmerung's Third Act!)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: AndyD. on September 24, 2012, 08:57:19 AM
I'll be spinning this later today, wondering how it will stand up to the Stein/Jerusalem dvd.


Seeing Matti Salminen as Gurnemanz makes my checking this out a veritable no-brainer.


(http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i97/Apostate_2006/Pars_zps30eeb27c.jpg)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Papy Oli on September 25, 2012, 01:17:53 PM
so this is the place then....  :-\

bit of a quandry here... I only have 3 operas CDs (one Norma I received by error from amazon, one Mozart overtures, a selection of Tristan & Isolde on a Carlos Kleiber CD) and yet I am getting a bit twitchy about this Solti boxset, which is at € 79.00 only at JPC.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Ov53XQ-RL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

QuoteLohengrin (Hans Sotin, Placido Domingo, Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau,
Jessye Norman, Wien PO/1986)
+Parsifal (Rene Kollo, Gottlob Frick, Christa Ludwig, Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, Wien PO/1972)
+Der Fliegende Holländer (Janis Martin, Rene Kollo, Martti Talvela, Werner Krenn,
Chicago SO/1976)
+Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg (Norman Bailey, Rene Kollo, Kurt Moll, Hannelore Bode, Wien PO/1975)
+Tannhäuser (Hans Sotin, Helga Dernesch, Kurt Equiluz, Wien PO/1970)
+Tristan & Isolde (Birgit Nilsson, Fritz Uhl, Tom Krause, Regina Resnik, Wien PO/1960)
+Der Ring des Nibelungen (Rheingold / Walküre / Siegfried / Götterdämmerung)
(Kirsten Flagstad, Regine Crespin, Helga Dernesch, Birgit Nilsson, Brigitte Fassbaender, Christa Ludwig, Helen Watts, James King, Hans Hotter, Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, Lucia Popp, Wolfgang Windgassen, Claire Watson, Wien PO/1959-1963)

I have listened to some samples on JPC and it is very much a case of yes-yes-no-yes-no-yes-yes-yes-no so I have no idea  ;D.... i thought about buying just one full opera only, but is it really giving Wagner a fair trial if i do so ? That boxset is a steal at that price, isn't it ? ....especially if I treat it as a long term "investment" and go through it at my own pace and do it properly with the libretto... right ?  ;D

God... what am I doing in this place....  ;D

/snypprrrr mode OFF  0:)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on September 25, 2012, 01:35:34 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on September 25, 2012, 01:17:53 PM
so this is the place then....  :-\

bit of a quandry here... I only have 3 operas CDs (one Norma I received by error from amazon, one Mozart overtures, a selection of Tristan & Isolde on a Carlos Kleiber CD) and yet I am getting a bit twitchy about this Solti boxset, which is at € 79.00 only at JPC.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Ov53XQ-RL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I have listened to some samples on JPC and it is very much a case of yes-yes-no-yes-no-yes-yes-yes-no so I have no idea  ;D.... i thought about buying just one full opera only, but is it really giving Wagner a fair trial if i do so ? That boxset is a steal at that price, isn't it ? ....especially if I treat it as a long term "investment" and go through it at my own pace and do it properly with the libretto... right ?  ;D

God... what am I doing in this place....  ;D

/snypprrrr mode OFF  0:)
Ha! ;D

Yes, it's a steal at that price. I paid half that for Die Meistersinger alone and more than that just for the Ring cycle. Might as well just get it...all the Wagner you'll ever need (and maybe more than you'll ever want) for less than the cost of the one must-have alone. ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 25, 2012, 02:37:00 PM
That's certainly a set I would want to own, it will probably be quite a long time before I can even start to consider buying it though....
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: AndyD. on September 25, 2012, 03:26:55 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on September 25, 2012, 01:17:53 PM
so this is the place then....  :-\

bit of a quandry here... I only have 3 operas CDs (one Norma I received by error from amazon, one Mozart overtures, a selection of Tristan & Isolde on a Carlos Kleiber CD) and yet I am getting a bit twitchy about this Solti boxset, which is at € 79.00 only at JPC.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Ov53XQ-RL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I have listened to some samples on JPC and it is very much a case of yes-yes-no-yes-no-yes-yes-yes-no so I have no idea  ;D.... i thought about buying just one full opera only, but is it really giving Wagner a fair trial if i do so ? That boxset is a steal at that price, isn't it ? ....especially if I treat it as a long term "investment" and go through it at my own pace and do it properly with the libretto... right ?  ;D

God... what am I doing in this place....  ;D

/snypprrrr mode OFF  0:)


That's an excellent set, especially for the price. The Ring and Lohengrin are my favorites of those pieces, and the Meistersinger is often really good. Actually, there's isn't a dud in that set imo.

However, I can't imagine going without the Bohm/Nilsson Tristan und Isolde or the Kubelik Parsifal. Not to mention the Stein Meistersinger and Parsifal dvds, both great. Then there's the Levine and Boulez Ring cycles on dvd.......
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Papy Oli on September 26, 2012, 11:49:58 AM
ok thank you  ;D

I have found Solti's Ring from Bayreuth 1983 (a different version to the set) on youtube. Starting Das Rheingold just now, will see how I get on.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Opus106 on September 26, 2012, 09:28:51 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on September 25, 2012, 01:17:53 PM
so this is the place then....  :-\

bit of a quandry here... I only have 3 operas CDs (one Norma I received by error from amazon, one Mozart overtures, a selection of Tristan & Isolde on a Carlos Kleiber CD) and yet I am getting a bit twitchy about this Solti boxset, which is at € 79.00 only at JPC.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Ov53XQ-RL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I have listened to some samples on JPC and it is very much a case of yes-yes-no-yes-no-yes-yes-yes-no so I have no idea  ;D.... i thought about buying just one full opera only, but is it really giving Wagner a fair trial if i do so ? That boxset is a steal at that price, isn't it ? ....especially if I treat it as a long term "investment" and go through it at my own pace and do it properly with the libretto... right ?  ;D

I say go with Zauberflöte or Figaro!

Quote
God... what am I doing in this place....  ;D

I know the feeling.    :-[

Quote
/snypprrrr mode OFF  0:)

:D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on September 27, 2012, 09:53:32 AM
BTW,  the Solti edition is being issued not as part of Wagnerjahr,  but because it's a Soltijahr of some sort.   There's also similar issues of Solti's Strauss and (IIRC) Verdi coming down the pipe
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Papy Oli on September 27, 2012, 12:41:42 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on September 26, 2012, 11:49:58 AM
I have found Solti's Ring from Bayreuth 1983 (a different version to the set) on youtube. Starting Das Rheingold just now, will see how I get on.

I listened to over an hour of Das Rheingold, one random chunk of 30 minutes of Die Walküre and another 30 minutes of Götterdämmerung yesterday...more than I thought  0:) 

Very intense (in a good way), undeniably... but the jury's still out  :)

Quote from: Opus106 on September 26, 2012, 09:28:51 PM
I say go with Zauberflöte!

I had that on DVD (Levine) a few years back - swapped it with CDs from Harry's Bin  :-X

Quoteor Figaro!

covered..of sorts...I recently acquired the Mozart Overtures with Davis/Dresden...I do like it  ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Opus106 on September 27, 2012, 09:58:37 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on September 27, 2012, 12:41:42 PM
I had that on DVD (Levine) a few years back - swapped it with CDs from Harry's Bin  :-X

Check out the 2003 Covent Garden, with Davis conducting. I think the whole thing is available on YouTube.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: brianwalker on September 28, 2012, 12:37:51 PM
Hey guys, I have this recording of Tristan by Knappertsbusch and I love it. It's on the Gala label.

[asin]http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Tristan-Isolde-Live-Munich/dp/B00004VM3L/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1348864589&sr=8-12&keywords=tristan+knappertsbusch[/asin]

However, Orfeo is known for getting great sound out of old mono recordings. Does anyone have this recording and the Gala and can tell me how much better, if at all, the Orfeo transfer is?

[asin]http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Tristan-Isolde-Richard-Classical/dp/B0000044WA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1348864589&sr=8-1&keywords=tristan+knappertsbusch[/asin]
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 29, 2012, 03:14:33 AM
Your links aren't working. You failed to insert the ASIN (Amazon's product number).

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 29, 2012, 03:24:34 AM
Do you mean this recording?

[asin]B0000044WA[/asin]
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: brianwalker on September 29, 2012, 09:09:24 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on September 29, 2012, 03:24:34 AM
Do you mean this recording?

[asin]B0000044WA[/asin]

Yes! This recording. Is the sound on it much better than the Gala?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 29, 2012, 09:24:35 AM
Quote from: brianwalker on September 29, 2012, 09:09:24 AM
Yes! This recording. Is the sound on it much better than the Gala?

It certainly is. Knappertsbusch's Tristan is very good, but I prefer the Furtwangler and the Karajan.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 30, 2012, 05:34:35 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on September 29, 2012, 09:24:35 AM
It certainly is. Knappertsbusch's Tristan is very good, but I prefer the Furtwangler and the Karajan.

Which Karajan? I know of two (Bayeuth 1952 with Mödl) and the EMI set. They are vastly different.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 30, 2012, 05:51:06 AM
Quote from: André on September 30, 2012, 05:34:35 AM
Which Karajan? I know of two (Bayeuth 1952 with Mödl) and the EMI set. They are vastly different.

The EMI set; I've never listened to the Bayreuth version. :(
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on April 12, 2013, 12:06:51 AM
James: FYI: The Amsterdam Pierre Audi Ring (now there's something different -- and good, at the same time!) is being re-issued as a box on DVD and Blu-ray!


(http://images-onepick-opensocial.googleusercontent.com/gadgets/proxy?container=onepick&gadget=a&rewriteMime=image%2F*&url=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-YEVpDNmCkus%2FUQ1nRixw-UI%2FAAAAAAAAGBc%2FJmJ2d8PdPk4%2Fs1600%2FRichard_Wagner_laurson_600.jpg)
Parsifal and the Tree of Life

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/04/parsifal-and-tree-of-life.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/04/parsifal-and-tree-of-life.html)

Konwitschny zooms in on the individual as such and pain—and puts Amfortas front and center of his all-white papier-mâché stage to illustrate this point...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on April 21, 2013, 03:23:26 PM
Yesterday our local PBS affiliate, Capital Public Radio, played the recent Met Siegfried. I listened for nearly an hour before turning it off, sad that such beautiful music is marred by so much tuneless shrieking. What the hell was Wagner thinking!?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Elgarian on April 21, 2013, 11:31:21 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 21, 2013, 03:23:26 PM
I listened for nearly an hour before turning it off, sad that such beautiful music is marred by so much tuneless shrieking.

These big turn-offs work in mysterious ways. I felt like that about almost any solo piano for about 50 years - all that beastly banging at the bottom end and cacophonic clinking at the top made me fear that my fillings would fall out, and sounded far more like noise for noise's sake than any rock music I ever heard. Then last year, suddenly, everything was alright - for no reason I could discern; and now I can't see what my problem was. So maybe you just need to wait another 50 years, Dave?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Parsifal on April 22, 2013, 10:46:51 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 21, 2013, 11:31:21 PM
These big turn-offs work in mysterious ways. I felt like that about almost any solo piano for about 50 years - all that beastly banging at the bottom end and cacophonic clinking at the top made me fear that my fillings would fall out, and sounded far more like noise for noise's sake than any rock music I ever heard. Then last year, suddenly, everything was alright - for no reason I could discern; and now I can't see what my problem was. So maybe you just need to wait another 50 years, Dave?

Will there still be electricity generation in California in 50 years?   Maybe time to stock up on hand-cranked gramophones. 
;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on April 22, 2013, 11:33:01 AM
My wife plans to live at least 50 more years, Alan, but for me even 10 more years is a long shot. BTW, that Lepage Ring was pretty darned good and it's only a matter of time before I spring for the blue-ray.

"Totally fall for him," Jens? I give his stuff the opportunity from time to time, but think the chances of head-over-heels puppy love are no better than the likelihood that I'll swap my Z28 Camaro for a 1972 Pontiac Bonneville.  ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on April 22, 2013, 11:40:51 AM
Tuneless shrieking sounds like it ought to go with atonal honking, anyway! : )
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on April 22, 2013, 11:51:16 AM
Both are essential ingredients of the "Do It Yourself Avant Gardiste Kit," along with a short loop of magnetic recording tape, a boxful of assorted nuts and bolts, and one or two Sikorsky choppers.   8)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Elgarian on April 23, 2013, 01:09:15 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 22, 2013, 11:51:16 AM
a boxful of assorted nuts and bolts

Hey, I've got one of those! There's hope for me yet!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Madiel on April 23, 2013, 06:09:59 AM
I recall lots of shrieking. But it wasn't tuneless.

Histrionic, on the other hand...

I saw the Met production at the cinema.  It's my only full-length exposure to Wagner. I honestly can't decide whether I want more or not. Some of it was wonderful and some of it was wince-inducing, and I honestly don't think the wincing was caused by the particular performance. It was caused by the plot. Especially the behaviour of some female characters.

(But then, I could say the same about most of the relatively few operas I've encountered. Janacek came close to giving me what I was after with Katia Kabanova but it still ended up descending into unconvincing melodrama. Maybe I'm just not an opera person. Sigh.)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on April 23, 2013, 09:11:11 AM
Quote from: orfeo on April 23, 2013, 06:09:59 AM
I recall lots of shrieking. But it wasn't tuneless.

Histrionic, on the other hand...

I saw the Met production at the cinema.  It's my only full-length exposure to Wagner. I honestly can't decide whether I want more or not. Some of it was wonderful and some of it was wince-inducing, and I honestly don't think the wincing was caused by the particular performance. It was caused by the plot. Especially the behaviour of some female characters.

(But then, I could say the same about most of the relatively few operas I've encountered. Janacek came close to giving me what I was after with Katia Kabanova but it still ended up descending into unconvincing melodrama. Maybe I'm just not an opera person. Sigh.)
Well, there you go. Aside from being a crappy songwriter (though, to be fair, he wasn't aiming at Mozartean arias), Wagner was a bloody awful dramatist, turning an intrinsically compelling story into hours of turgid, pretentious tedium. But to be fair to opera, Wagner wasn't trying to write traditional operas, either, and it would be a mistake to judge the art form by his work.

Try the well established classics before deciding opera's not for you: The Marriage of Figaro, Cosi fan tutte, Don Giovanni, The Barber of Seville, Carmen, etc.  There's a reason such works are perennially beloved.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Parsifal on April 23, 2013, 10:11:45 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 23, 2013, 09:11:11 AM
Well, there you go. Aside from being a crappy songwriter (though, to be fair, he wasn't aiming at Mozartean arias), Wagner was a bloody awful dramatist, turning an intrinsically compelling story into hours of turgid, pretentious tedium. But to be fair to opera, Wagner wasn't trying to write traditional operas, either, and it would be a mistake to judge the art form by his work.

Recently I have been watching the "Copenhagen Ring" on DVD, and the turgidity seems to be somewhat diluted by skillful staging and a recasting of the story into something compatible with Wagner's idea but less "mythical." 


[asin]B0019LZ19O[/asin]
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Elgarian on April 23, 2013, 12:44:23 PM
Quote from: Parsifal on April 23, 2013, 10:11:45 AM
Recently I have been watching the "Copenhagen Ring" on DVD, and the turgidity seems to be somewhat diluted by skillful staging and a recasting of the story into something compatible with Wagner's idea but less "mythical." 

But then again, I've never been able to watch more than about half an hour of the Copenhagen Ring without eventually squirming so much that I have to turn it off. I live in hope, and watch bits of it occasionally, but for me, it never really seems 'compatible with Wagner's idea'. I want my Ring to be more, not less, 'mythical'. (A less 'mythical' Ring would be a contradiction in terms, wouldn't it?) And while I'd admit that there are sections where time seems to pass a little more slowly than elsewhere, and like anyone else I have my favourite chunks, I'm not sure I've ever experienced this 'turgidity' that's being spoken of, here - except perhaps on occasions where I've misjudged my frame of mind and should have chosen something else instead.

I think it was CS Lewis who said that the Ring was capable of becoming the most important thing in one's life for a year or more; certainly I'd go along with that. From the start there was something about the Ring that I found endlessly fascinating - my point being that almost anything seems turgid if it isn't, basically, one's cup of tea.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on April 23, 2013, 04:09:26 PM
My Ring time hasn't come yet. But I am sure it will.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on April 23, 2013, 06:52:40 PM
My limited experience indicates that for me  Wagner on CD is much more enjoyable than Wagner on DVD.
I have the following on DVD:
Ring:  Metropolitan Opera/Levine
Tristan: La Scala/Barenboim
Parsifal:  Bayreuth production with Jerusalem in the title role
Lohengrin:  the DVD with Jonas Kauffman and I forget who else
The DVD pile is in another room, and I'm not in the mood to look for more specific credits.  They've been sitting in that pile for three or four years now, in some cases.

Of this stash,  I've viewed Rheingold and the first act of Parsifal. 

Part of the problem is that it's harder for me to carve out time to actually sit and watch a DVD, even one act at a time.  But part of the problem is that I'd rather just listen and not be bothered by the visual element.

For those wishing a "literal" presentation of the myth,  I might add,  the Met/Levine production is probably just what you want, at least in terms of the visual staging.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Elgarian on April 24, 2013, 01:31:37 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 23, 2013, 06:52:40 PM
My limited experience indicates that for me  Wagner on CD is much more enjoyable than Wagner on DVD.

That's my experience too, after 35 years acquaintance, and having sampled a lot of the available recordings on CD and DVD. If I had to choose only one Ring for my desert island, it could be any one of the CD sets, really; none of the DVD sets would get any serious consideration, except the Chereau/Boulez (and even there the panto giants almost ruin the Rheingold).

QuoteFor those wishing a "literal" presentation of the myth,  I might add,  the Met/Levine production is probably just what you want, at least in terms of the visual staging.

I said above that I hadn't experienced the 'turgidity' that some folk talk about, but I'm now reminded that I have - just once - while watching the Levine Ring. It does indeed attempt to be a literal mythicised staging, but suffers from (a) an appalling Brunnhilde in Hildegard Berens, who strains my endurance far beyond its limit, and the memory of which makes me suddenly far more sympathetic towards David Ross's comments a few posts above; and (b) an overall stolid woodenness of performance that makes each half an hour seems curiously longer than it ought.

I suppose I was spoiled by seeing the glorious Goodall/English National Opera production very early on (1980-ish), in Gotterdammerung, with Rita Hunter as Brunnhilde and and Alberto Remedios as Siegfried.  The staging was minimal - set in a timeless mythical zone that allowed free range to the imagination, and the singing was so astounding that the hot summer evening seemed far too short; one wanted it to go on for ever. Nothing I've seen on DVD has ever come close to matching that, except the Chereau, at its greatest moments. So on the whole I prefer to dispense with the unsatisfactory visual stagings, and I've spent far more time listening to the Ring on CD, than watching my DVDs.


Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on April 24, 2013, 10:49:27 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 23, 2013, 04:09:26 PM
My Ring time hasn't come yet. But I am sure it will.
Get a move on, dude! Several recordings available for listening via Mog, including the new Levine/Luisi/Met.

Whoops --- correction: not the complete new Met Ring, just selections. But they do have the complete Böhm Bayreuth Ring with Birgit Nilsson's Brünnhilde (I bet she looked the part, too!).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on April 24, 2013, 10:59:17 AM
I've got The Cube, too. I am more awaiting the time when I can let it be its own thing : )
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Madiel on April 24, 2013, 09:48:38 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 23, 2013, 09:11:11 AM
Try the well established classics before deciding opera's not for you: The Marriage of Figaro, Cosi fan tutte, Don Giovanni, The Barber of Seville, Carmen, etc.  There's a reason such works are perennially beloved.

I've seen (on TV or film) both The Marriage of Figaro and Don Giovanni. They were moderately entertaining. But still not things I would get wildly enthused about on a first listen.

I'm fairly sure I saw a filmed version of Carmen as well, but that was not in my adult years.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Parsifal on April 24, 2013, 10:31:03 PM
Quote from: orfeo on April 24, 2013, 09:48:38 PM
I've seen (on TV or film) both The Marriage of Figaro and Don Giovanni. They were moderately entertaining. But still not things I would get wildly enthused about on a first listen.

I'm fairly sure I saw a filmed version of Carmen as well, but that was not in my adult years.

Before the Mozart, I'd recommend trying Tosca (Puccini) and Otello  (Verdi).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: david-jw on April 25, 2013, 01:15:55 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 23, 2013, 12:44:23 PM
But then again, I've never been able to watch more than about half an hour of the Copenhagen Ring without eventually squirming so much that I have to turn it off. I live in hope, and watch bits of it occasionally, but for me, it never really seems 'compatible with Wagner's idea'. I want my Ring to be more, not less, 'mythical'. (A less 'mythical' Ring would be a contradiction in terms, wouldn't it?)

I think it was CS Lewis who said that the Ring was capable of becoming the most important thing in one's life for a year or more; certainly I'd go along with that. From the start there was something about the Ring that I found endlessly fascinating - my point being that almost anything seems turgid if it isn't, basically, one's cup of tea.

I agree.

For me The Ring is should be mysterious and timeless.

Productions which lose sight of the mythic in The Ring are missing the point imo- allegory is central to The Ring.

This does not mean that staging should be slavish to an atrified convention- for example I thought that the Kupfer/Barenboim Ring was quite succesful in this regard (up until the terrible last 5 mins).

Its good to watch DVD's of The Ring when one is first experiencing it, in order to get an understanding of what is going on and hopefully to experience some of the frisson that music drama (as opposed to only music alone) can create.

However after a while though I also found I prefered just to listen to great recordings of the cycle and run my own production of the Ring in my imagination, because it is essentially an unstageable work.

Indeed, imo there is a credible argument for the medium of film with CGI as being a better medium for The Ring than the stage. I'm not in any sense suggesting a Lord of the Rings/Star Wars type approach- but imagine what Richard Wagner would have been able to create with the technology and budget of a hollywood blockbuster + the greatest singers available.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Madiel on April 25, 2013, 02:29:29 AM
Quote from: Parsifal on April 24, 2013, 10:31:03 PM
Before the Mozart, I'd recommend trying Tosca (Puccini) and Otello  (Verdi).

I am definitely interested in both Verdi and Puccini. I think Rigoletto is the only complete opera by either that I've seen so far. And while I didn't love all of it, the quartet in Act 3 was stunning.

I have a tendency with opera to want to shout 'get on with it!'  as the plot gets slowed down by the music.
Title: Re: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on April 25, 2013, 03:03:35 AM
Quote from: orfeo on April 25, 2013, 02:29:29 AM
I have a tendency with opera to want to shout 'get on with it!'  as the plot gets slowed down by the music.

That happens a lot in Wagner, where there's not much plot, but ample slowdown.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Elgarian on April 25, 2013, 06:06:48 AM
Quote from: orfeo on April 25, 2013, 02:29:29 AM
I have a tendency with opera to want to shout 'get on with it!'  as the plot gets slowed down by the music.

That sounds like a mindset issue: doesn't it arise by approaching opera as if it were 'a play, with music added'? But it isn't that - or at least, at its best it isn't. It's not even accurate to say that the music is 'as important as' the plot. Rather, in the ideal opera the two are integrated to form a coherent and inseparable whole; and this is the region where The Ring, surely, is operating. It seems to go slowly only if we think of it as 'a play, with music added'; but plot, language, music (and ideally, staging) are interwoven and inseparable.

I'm not unsympathetic - I've experienced those longeurs myself; but as I became more acquainted with The Ring over the years, the less slow the 'slow' bits seemed, and the more unified my perception of the whole has become. It's a lifetime project, but of course the rewards may not seem to justify the struggle, and for many people it's a commitment they (very reasonably) don't want to make. I'm currently feeling that way about my new hard leather Brooks bike saddle.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Madiel on April 25, 2013, 06:24:37 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 25, 2013, 06:06:48 AM
That sounds like a mindset issue: doesn't it arise by approaching opera as if it were 'a play, with music added'? But it isn't that - or at least, at its best it isn't. It's not even accurate to say that the music is 'as important as' the plot. Rather, in the ideal opera the two are integrated to form a coherent and inseparable whole; and this is the region where The Ring, surely, is operating. It seems to go slowly only if we think of it as 'a play, with music added'; but plot, language, music (and ideally, staging) are interwoven and inseparable.

I'm not unsympathetic - I've experienced those longeurs myself; but as I became more acquainted with The Ring over the years, the less slow the 'slow' bits seemed, and the more unified my perception of the whole has become. It's a lifetime project, but of course the rewards may not seem to justify the struggle, and for many people it's a commitment they (very reasonably) don't want to make. I'm currently feeling that way about my new hard leather Brooks bike saddle.

No, it's not a mindset issue in that sense. I am perfectly capable of accepting that action stops for some singing.  However, the reason for stopping has to be sufficiently engaging.

The main reason it usually isn't engaging is because the characters are spouting sentiments that are incongruous or dated.  See my previous comments about some female characters in The Ring. Sieglinde in particular, I seem to remember.  Incongruous is a big problem for me in particular - when characters swing from 'I am the happiest person on earth, my joy is complete' to 'Woe is me, my life is over' in the space of a few minutes it's pretty damn difficult for me to stay engaged.

But maybe people just thought that way in the 19th century. I don't know. I do know that I can enjoy a modern musical. Les Miserables may have its flaws, but I found it moving in 1988 and I found it moving again in the recent film - and discovered I could still remember lots of the tunes before I saw the film.  The show may have a lot of old-fashioned sentiments but it is fundamentally a modern work aimed at modern sensibilities.

I also know that the musical episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer called "Once More With Feeling" is an astonishing, brilliant piece of work that succeeds in moving forward elements of the show's plot that have been building up for half a dozen prior episodes, with its conceit that people are forced to sing their true feelings when they haven't been speaking them.  The songs have convincing reasons to exist and are engaging for that reason.

I found certain acts of The Ring extremely engaging on my first encounter, but it was highly patchy.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on April 25, 2013, 07:55:24 AM
Quote from: orfeo on April 24, 2013, 09:48:38 PM
I've seen (on TV or film) both The Marriage of Figaro and Don Giovanni. They were moderately entertaining. But still not things I would get wildly enthused about on a first listen.

I'm fairly sure I saw a filmed version of Carmen as well, but that was not in my adult years.
Seeing it on TV is not the same as going to the opera.  Attending opera is one of the great cultural pleasures my wife and I both enjoy.  On the other hand, filmed opera usually puts both of us to sleep. They are related in the same way that skiing at Alpine Meadows is related to "skiing" on a Wii gaming console.

Note that watching one of the Met's opera broadcasts at a state-of-the-art cinema is a lot more engaging than watching it on your big-screen TV at home ... but still falls far short of the real thing.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Elgarian on April 25, 2013, 12:17:39 PM
Quote from: orfeo on April 25, 2013, 06:24:37 AM
No, it's not a mindset issue in that sense. I am perfectly capable of accepting that action stops for some singing.  However, the reason for stopping has to be sufficiently engaging.

I think that's my point though: I think it's probably counter-productive to approach the Ring in terms of 'songs' starting and stopping. There are no arias in the normal operatic sense in The Ring; rather, it's an interweaving complex whole - with a structure completely unlike an opera by Handel, say, or Mozart (both of whose operas I love, but in very different ways).

I should stress that I don't want to persuade you one way or the other. I'm just comparing notes; and wanting to explain (as a Ring afficionado trying to be helpful) that I don't myself think in terms of action or singing stopping or starting in the Ring. There's just this continuous, complex intertwining of drama and music that requires an attitude from me, as listener, that has always seemed unique.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Madiel on April 25, 2013, 07:41:24 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 25, 2013, 12:17:39 PM
I think that's my point though: I think it's probably counter-productive to approach the Ring in terms of 'songs' starting and stopping. There are no arias in the normal operatic sense in The Ring; rather, it's an interweaving complex whole - with a structure completely unlike an opera by Handel, say, or Mozart (both of whose operas I love, but in very different ways).

I should stress that I don't want to persuade you one way or the other. I'm just comparing notes; and wanting to explain (as a Ring afficionado trying to be helpful) that I don't myself think in terms of action or singing stopping or starting in the Ring. There's just this continuous, complex intertwining of drama and music that requires an attitude from me, as listener, that has always seemed unique.

Nevertheless, there are times (on the Met broadcast) where things really didn't progress for a good long while so that someone could sing either about how wonderful life was or how terrible life was.

I do basically like the music. In fact, the instrumental introductions to each opera or Act were consistently among my favourite moments.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on April 25, 2013, 10:06:00 PM
The Ring is a special case, probably in several respects, but what i am thinking of here is in line with what Alan describes above. Wagner provided musical motifs. These can refer to a character, the river, a sword, gold, love, blood....and so on. Despite tying himself to these motifs, he was able to use them to weave a rich carpet of music where things being referred to, or even thought about by the characters, are layered in front of you. If you learn some of the themes it provides an even richer ride along the Rhine.

Prior to Wagner, opera composers used the orchestra largely as background and opera generally ran along 'numbers' such as.....recit, aria, recit aria, ensemble, recit, duet. Wagner brought the orchestra forward and in a sense sank the voices into it. It is a protagonist and is telling us things about the story, not just providing a decent background. Latterly Verdi also provided through-written scores that to an extent did away with the numbers, though no one took it to the kind of extreme as did Wagner.

I think time spent with the music somehow dissolves the boring patches. You become acclimatised to the pace. I do still occasionally grind my teeth when the same thoughts are expounded on the third occasion; but Wagner Time is not like other time. You learn largely to slow down to his heart rate. That is probably harder for us now when we are so used to fast editing in visual entertainment. But the events in the Ring are deceptive. They are not the main issues Wagner was interested in. He was more looking at how those events affect his characters and the world they live in. So the famous highlights have lured people in and deceived us that the stuff in between the highlights is filler, up market recit, to get us from one exciting moment to the next. No! Rather they are vocal symphonies where Wagner found a way to code it all so that the orchestral writing did not remain largely abstract.

For me the most addictive of Wagner's works is Tristan und Isolde. It can act like a narcotic. You enter a kind of dream. You experience life, not merely a story. He teaches you about life. So does Mozart and Bizet and sometimes Verdi, but with Wagner you have to give yourself to it rather than expecting it to yield all its fruits up front.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Elgarian on April 26, 2013, 12:01:15 AM
Quote from: knight66 on April 25, 2013, 10:06:00 PM
I think time spent with the music somehow dissolves the boring patches. You become acclimatised to the pace. I do still occasionally grind my teeth when the same thoughts are expounded on the third occasion; but Wagner Time is not like other time. You learn largely to slow down to his heart rate. That is probably harder for us now when we are so used to fast editing in visual entertainment. But the events in the Ring are deceptive. They are not the main issues Wagner was interested in. He was more looking at how those events affect his characters and the world they live in. So the famous highlights have lured people in and deceived us that the stuff in between the highlights is filler, up market recit, to get us from one exciting moment to the next. No! Rather they are vocal symphonies where Wagner found a way to code it all so that the orchestral writing did not remain largely abstract.

Mike, that's one of the best short pieces of writing about the special character of the Ring that I've read for a long time. Thank you for putting it so clearly. You're right too when you talk about 'giving yourself to it'. Like everyone else, I love ripping out bleeding chunks of brilliance and enjoying them on their own - but over a lifetime of listening, they aren't actually the aspects of the Ring that have been the most significant. The most important influences have been deeper, less obvious, more all-pervasive - the result of periodic total immersions, of allowing myself to float in the Wagnerian musical ocean, as it were. Not worrying about whether this bit is better than that bit, or whether things should be moving faster, but just letting them unfold, and being there as they do. That sort of involvement isn't for everyone; but for me, it's the kind of approach the Ring invites, and (eventually) rewards.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Madiel on April 26, 2013, 12:31:55 AM
A couple of people have referred to enjoying it more on CD.

I have a suspicion I would fall into that category.  Of course, it's arguably not really consistent with Wagner's intentions.  Or any other opera composer for a long period.  The whole notion of being able to sit down somewhere and listen to the music without seeing anything would have been bewildering.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Fafner on April 26, 2013, 02:01:35 AM
Quote from: orfeo on April 25, 2013, 06:24:37 AM
...when characters swing from 'I am the happiest person on earth, my joy is complete' to 'Woe is me, my life is over' in the space of a few minutes...


This, for me, is THE essence of romanticism.

And it is perfectly possible to feel both of these two emotional extremes simultaneously, as anyone who has madly fallen in love can attest.   :D ::) :-[  :-* :'(
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Madiel on April 26, 2013, 02:22:47 AM
Quote from: Fafner on April 26, 2013, 02:01:35 AM
And it is perfectly possible to feel both of these two emotional extremes simultaneously, as anyone who has madly fallen in love can attest.   :D ::) :-[  :-* :'(

Yes. But I don't especially enjoy watching it in others.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Octave on April 26, 2013, 06:39:12 AM
Has anyone heard anything about the Boulez/Chereau RING coming out in a Blu-Ray edition?  It's been a while since I checked the grapevine.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Parsifal on April 26, 2013, 07:23:36 AM
Quote from: Octave on April 26, 2013, 06:39:12 AM
Has anyone heard anything about the Boulez/Chereau RING coming out in a Blu-Ray edition?  It's been a while since I checked the grapevine.

That's from the late 70's no?  Unless it was captured using film cameras rather than video, they probably don't have a source that is any better that DVD resolution.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Madiel on April 26, 2013, 07:44:47 AM
It would appear I can sample an awful lot of the Boulez/Chereau version on Youtube. Including the whole of Goetterdamerung!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Parsifal on April 26, 2013, 08:03:47 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 26, 2013, 07:57:45 AM
1980, and captured with state-of-the-art film cameras. The Bavarian Radio Broadcasting company threw everything and the kitchen sink at this one... and it was shown in cinemas, in Germany.

Doh!  Where's the bluray, yo!

An no one bothered to make any record of the Solti Ring (which was the one right after Boulez, if I remember right)?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Parsifal on April 26, 2013, 08:32:44 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 26, 2013, 08:20:47 AM
It lasted for an unusually short three runs, Solti conducted only in the first year (during which no recordings would be made, anyway) and then Bayreuthians or BR people or Unitel or whoever probably rightly figured that no one in their right mind would want to spend a lot of money on purchasing a Peter Schneider / Peter Hall Ring.  ;D

The next one - Barenboim / Kupfer - made it on DVD, though... and is among the little competition the Chereau Ring has (partly because of its over-all quality, partly because it's considerably different from the more traditional Chereau)

I would think that Bayreuth would make a video tape of each production, just to have a record of what took place.  I guess not. 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on April 26, 2013, 09:02:57 AM
Quote from: Parsifal on April 26, 2013, 08:32:44 AM
I would think that Bayreuth would make a video tape of each production, just to have a record of what took place.  I guess not.

I don't actually know if they do... Now they most definitely do, but then, when it wasn't that easy to do, especially if there was no plan to publish anything?? And any way of unobtrusively filming the performance would certainly have resulted in not-to-be-published quality material.

I know that of the Ring that followed Danny/Kupfer, which was Levine/Kirchner/"Rosalie", only Goetterdaemmerung was put on tape... the rest of this imaginative production has to be, well... imagined.

All this Ring-talk is making me realize that I have several unwatched Wagner DVDs about. In goes the Salzburg Karajan Rheingold!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Elgarian on April 27, 2013, 01:17:33 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51r1RMUeIfL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Alright. Time for some Humble Pie.

I was in the mood for some Wagner this evening, after a longish break, and so we decided to blow the dust off the (mainly unplayed) Copenhagen Ring DVD set. Valkyrie, Act 3, we decided. Well, strike me on a matchbox and knock me into fits (as my grandfather used to say): it was phenomenal! Those drunken party-girl valkyries are devastatingly effective, and Wotan and Brunnhilde ... well, have I ever been more transfixed, more moved, more 'how-privileged-am-I-to-witness-this' gobsmacked? No.

Which just goes to show that first impressions can't be relied upon. First time I tried the Copenhagen Ring I switched off in dismay after half an hour. Now, I'm a convert.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Parsifal on April 27, 2013, 01:25:52 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 27, 2013, 01:17:33 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51r1RMUeIfL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Alright. Time for some Humble Pie.

I was in the mood for some Wagner this evening, after a longish break, and so we decided to blow the dust off the (mainly unplayed) Copenhagen Ring DVD set. Valkyrie, Act 3, we decided. Well, strike me on a matchbox and knock me into fits (as my grandfather used to say): it was phenomenal! Those drunken party-girl valkyries are devastatingly effective, and Wotan and Brunnhilde ... well, have I ever been more transfixed, more moved, more 'how-privileged-am-I-to-witness-this' gobsmacked? No.

Which just goes to show that first impressions can't be relied upon. First time I tried the Copenhagen Ring I switched off in dismay after half an hour. Now, I'm a convert.

Probably depends on which part you started with.  I wasn't entirely convinced by Rheingold, but I thought Walkure came off beautifully.  The Hunding, Seigfried, Seiglinde interaction in the first act was spot-on, and the whole scene where Wotan's wife lambastes him for sanctioning the unholy union of Seigfried and Seiglinde, followed by breaking the bad news to Brunhilde made sense to me, for the first time.  Seigfried is next.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on April 27, 2013, 01:51:31 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 27, 2013, 01:17:33 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51r1RMUeIfL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Alright. Time for some Humble Pie.

I was in the mood for some Wagner this evening, after a longish break, and so we decided to blow the dust off the (mainly unplayed) Copenhagen Ring DVD set. Valkyrie, Act 3, we decided. Well, strike me on a matchbox and knock me into fits (as my grandfather used to say): it was phenomenal! Those drunken party-girl valkyries are devastatingly effective, and Wotan and Brunnhilde ... well, have I ever been more transfixed, more moved, more 'how-privileged-am-I-to-witness-this' gobsmacked? No.

Which just goes to show that first impressions can't be relied upon. First time I tried the Copenhagen Ring I switched off in dismay after half an hour. Now, I'm a convert.

This is my own favourite DVD Ring, the Norns apart, they are trivialised. But the main thrust of the framing of the operas is very convincing and it certainly does dig into the psyche of each main protagonist and is very well played and sung. Good to know you have changed you mind on it.

And thanks for your earlier comments.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Elgarian on April 29, 2013, 02:13:34 AM
Quote from: knight66 on April 27, 2013, 01:51:31 PM
[The Copenhagen Ring] is my own favourite DVD Ring, the Norns apart, they are trivialised. But the main thrust of the framing of the operas is very convincing and it certainly does dig into the psyche of each main protagonist and is very well played and sung. Good to know you have changed you mind on it.

Inspired by the thrill of Valkyrie Act 3, we switched to Act 1 (yes I know - a topsy-turvy way of doing things) last night and again were entranced by the performance. I felt an initial resistance to the anachronistic setting, but it didn't last long; the performances were so intense that we were swept up into the musical narrative completely. Siegmund, Sieglinde and Hunding didn't just sing wonderfully - they acted their roles with thoroughly convincing conviction.

This is marvellous. I'd really thought I'd wasted my money on the Copenhagen Ring, but clearly it was just a matter of the right mood and time coming together.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on April 29, 2013, 02:34:51 AM
Alan, I have had similar experiences, subjectivity piled onto subjectivity. I did like the idea of the gold being personified by a young man in the first opera. The theft of the gold always looks pathetic and usually constitutes something the size of a fist. It also then strikes me that they must havebeen inneficient to then fashion only one small ring out of that gob of gold......the way the Copenhagen production deals with it, the transgressive theft of the 'gold' is genuinely shocking. Though how a ring is then manufactured is rather less logical.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on April 29, 2013, 04:46:23 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 29, 2013, 02:13:34 AM
Inspired by the thrill of Valkyrie Act 3, we switched to Act 1 (yes I know - a topsy-turvy way of doing things) last night and again were entranced by the performance. I felt an initial resistance to the anachronistic setting, but it didn't last long; the performances were so intense that we were swept up into the musical narrative completely. Siegmund, Sieglinde and Hunding didn't just sing wonderfully - they acted their roles with thoroughly convincing conviction.

This is marvellous. I'd really thought I'd wasted my money on the Copenhagen Ring, but clearly it was just a matter of the right mood and time coming together.

Although I've not reached that place myself, I find it easy to imagine, if one is a Ring enthusiast, plunging in at nearly any point without being disrupted by going apparently against the narrative flow.

Separately, Alan, I recently watched Enchanted April for just the second time (the first was perhaps a decade since), and Mrs Fisher seemed to recollect Ruskin.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on April 29, 2013, 07:12:15 AM
All this talk about video productions of the Ring cycle finally pushed me over the edge.

Our third filmed cycle, after the first Levine/Met and Boulez/Bayreuth, and first on Blu-ray:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VzVGjPgAL.jpg)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on April 29, 2013, 07:23:03 AM
Love . . . is a burnin' thing,
An' it leaves . . . a fiery ring . . . .
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on April 29, 2013, 08:01:19 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 29, 2013, 07:12:15 AM
All this talk about video productions of the Ring cycle finally pushed me over the edge.

Our third filmed cycle, after the first Levine/Met and Boulez/Bayreuth, and first on Blu-ray:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VzVGjPgAL.jpg)

Terrific choice and terrific fit within those you already have!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on April 29, 2013, 08:04:02 AM
No doubt if little Dickie had lived a century later, he would have condensed the entire 15 hour extravaganza into this:

http://www.youtube.com/v/It7107ELQvY
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on April 29, 2013, 08:07:23 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 29, 2013, 08:04:02 AM
No doubt if little Dickie had lived a century later, he would have condensed the entire 15 hour extravaganza into this:

http://www.youtube.com/v/It7107ELQvY

Oh boy, are those Rhine-Maidens or Norns, in the back?  Wait... am I drunk, or are those 4 girls, not 3?

Pretty heavy on the brass... Lots of similarities. I think you might be on to something.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on April 29, 2013, 08:25:30 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 29, 2013, 08:01:19 AM
Terrific choice and terrific fit within those you already have!
Glad to hear you think so, Jens. Sooner or later I expect to acquire Lepage's, and the Copenhagen Ring sounds tempting, but what I'm really looking forward to someday is a filmed version with contemporary special effects bringing the world Wagner imagined to the big screen.  ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on April 29, 2013, 08:26:33 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 29, 2013, 08:07:23 AM
Oh boy, are those Rhine-Maidens or Norns, in the back?  Wait... am I drunk, or are those 4 girls, not 3?

Pretty heavy on the brass... Lots of similarities. I think you might be on to something.
We're on the same page, dude!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Parsifal on April 29, 2013, 08:37:50 AM
You forgot the Valkures...

http://www.youtube.com/v/SbyAZQ45uww

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on April 29, 2013, 08:47:36 AM
Quote from: Parsifal on April 29, 2013, 08:37:50 AM
You forgot the Valkures...
;D

Was that Hullabaloo?  Funny how risqué that seemed in the '60s, and how tame -- even sweet -- it seems now.

No doubt Wagner would have approved.

Which reminds me: for the 4-part theatrical Ring extravaganza (directed by Peter Jackson?), if the Valkyries and Rhine Maidens are topless there's a much greater chance of commercial success. Hmmm...instead of Peter Jackson, maybe Ken Russell would be a better choice to direct!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on April 29, 2013, 08:50:44 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 29, 2013, 08:47:36 AM
Which reminds me: for the 4-part theatrical Ring extravaganza (directed by Peter Jackson?)

Peter Jackson, do the Ring in only four parts?

16!  Incorporating material from Tannhäuser, Lohengrin, Tristan, & Where the Wild Things Are!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on April 29, 2013, 08:57:28 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 29, 2013, 08:50:44 AM
Peter Jackson, do the Ring in only four parts?

16!  Incorporating material from Tannhäuser, Lohengrin, Tristan, & Where the Wild Things Are!

And changing the ending, no doubt, leaving out Siegfried's betrayal and death, and finishing with the Gods joyfully departing for Disneyland.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Parsifal on April 29, 2013, 08:58:27 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 29, 2013, 08:47:36 AM
Was that Hullabaloo?  Funny how risqué that seemed in the '60s, and how tame -- even sweet -- it seems now.

In 40 years they'll be saying the same thing about the Paris Hilton sex tape...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on April 29, 2013, 09:04:01 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 29, 2013, 08:57:28 AM
And changing the ending, no doubt, leaving out Siegfried's betrayal and death, and finishing with the Gods joyfully departing for Disneyland.

Turns out, too, that Brünnhilde was actually Wotan's mother.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on April 29, 2013, 09:57:33 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 29, 2013, 09:04:01 AM
Turns out, too, that Brünnhilde was actually Wotan's mother.
Talk about a dysfunctional family ... no wonder those white folks are so messed up!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Elgarian on April 29, 2013, 11:46:49 PM
Full of optimism after our Valkyrie surprise, we turned to the Gotterdammerung from the Copenhagen Ring.

Oh, I can't cope with this. The Norns reduced the introduction to mere panto farce. And to see Siegfried and Brunnhilde pottering about watering their flowerpots during breakfast didn't improve matters much. The problem is one of artistic integrity - by which I mean the sense of wholeness of conception that's an essential component of great art. To put that music, and those words into a 'getting up and making the tea while pottering about the summerhouse' setting makes it impossible for me to take seriously what I'm seeing and hearing. Crushing disappointment.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on April 30, 2013, 09:28:36 AM
Aye. Wagner's unintentional trivializing of the story through dramatic incompetence is bad enough without further impeding suspension of disbelief due to intentionally trivial interpolations by "artistic" stage directors.

Re. the Norns: to be fair, there's not much one can do with this wretched scene, except perhaps to cut it altogether. Anathema to those who think every snot rag on which Wagner wiped his nose is a religious relic demanding worship, but there you have it.

Oh, dear ... am I mincing my words again? Let me know if my meaning's not clear and I'll try to be more direct. ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Parsifal on April 30, 2013, 10:31:22 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 29, 2013, 11:46:49 PMThe problem is one of artistic integrity - by which I mean the sense of wholeness of conception that's an essential component of great art.

You don't think skipping an entire opera (from Walkure to Gotterdamerung) might have some bearing on "wholeness of conception?"
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on April 30, 2013, 10:43:00 AM
The Norns in that production are my main disappointment, unlike David, that is a scene I would keep for its balefully beautiful music.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Elgarian on April 30, 2013, 11:15:35 AM
Quote from: Parsifal on April 30, 2013, 10:31:22 AM
You don't think skipping an entire opera (from Walkure to Gotterdamerung) might have some bearing on "wholeness of conception?"

Oh come on. I've been immersing myself in the Ring periodically over a period of nearly forty years, and the drama, the music, and the sequence of those operas are embedded in my soul. I'm perfectly capable of remembering how it's glued together, and I've earned my right to skip among the operas in any way I choose without being patronised for doing it.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Elgarian on April 30, 2013, 11:17:48 AM
Quote from: knight66 on April 30, 2013, 10:43:00 AM
The Norns in that production are my main disappointment, unlike David, that is a scene I would keep for its balefully beautiful music.

Yes indeed. That's my view too.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Parsifal on April 30, 2013, 11:20:17 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 30, 2013, 11:15:35 AM
Oh come on. I've been immersing myself in the Ring periodically over a period of nearly forty years, and the drama, the music, and the sequence of those operas are embedded in my soul. I'm perfectly capable of remembering how it's glued together, and I've earned my right to skip among the operas in any way I choose without being patronised for doing it.

I didn't mean to be patronizing or to question your knowledge of the Ring.  But I would think the Copenhagen production's treatment of Seigfried would have some bearing on how one would interpret their treatment of Gotterdamerung.  I have no opinion, since I've only made it through Wakure, so far.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Elgarian on April 30, 2013, 11:33:20 AM
Quote from: Parsifal on April 30, 2013, 11:20:17 AM
I didn't mean to be patronizing or to question your knowledge of the Ring.  But I would think the Copenhagen production's treatment of Seigfried would have some bearing on how one would interpret their treatment of Gotterdamerung.  I have no opinion, since I've only made it through Wakure, so far.

I apologise. I've had a bad day, and was too sensitive. Rather than jump down your throat I should have explained more carefully that I was trying to describe my own personal response to the bringing together of such trite soap-opera visuals with such great music, and such a profound myth. I can't conceive of anything they could have done in the intervening Siegfried that could reconcile me to that particular grotesque juxtaposition. (I'm aware that others may not encounter this as a problem.)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Peregrine on May 12, 2013, 02:22:20 AM
Quote from: knight66 on April 25, 2013, 10:06:00 PM
The Ring is a special case, probably in several respects, but what i am thinking of here is in line with what Alan describes above. Wagner provided musical motifs. These can refer to a character, the river, a sword, gold, love, blood....and so on. Despite tying himself to these motifs, he was able to use them to weave a rich carpet of music where things being referred to, or even thought about by the characters, are layered in front of you. If you learn some of the themes it provides an even richer ride along the Rhine.

Prior to Wagner, opera composers used the orchestra largely as background and opera generally ran along 'numbers' such as.....recit, aria, recit aria, ensemble, recit, duet. Wagner brought the orchestra forward and in a sense sank the voices into it. It is a protagonist and is telling us things about the story, not just providing a decent background. Latterly Verdi also provided through-written scores that to an extent did away with the numbers, though no one took it to the kind of extreme as did Wagner.

I think time spent with the music somehow dissolves the boring patches. You become acclimatised to the pace. I do still occasionally grind my teeth when the same thoughts are expounded on the third occasion; but Wagner Time is not like other time. You learn largely to slow down to his heart rate. That is probably harder for us now when we are so used to fast editing in visual entertainment. But the events in the Ring are deceptive. They are not the main issues Wagner was interested in. He was more looking at how those events affect his characters and the world they live in. So the famous highlights have lured people in and deceived us that the stuff in between the highlights is filler, up market recit, to get us from one exciting moment to the next. No! Rather they are vocal symphonies where Wagner found a way to code it all so that the orchestral writing did not remain largely abstract.

For me the most addictive of Wagner's works is Tristan und Isolde. It can act like a narcotic. You enter a kind of dream. You experience life, not merely a story. He teaches you about life. So does Mozart and Bizet and sometimes Verdi, but with Wagner you have to give yourself to it rather than expecting it to yield all its fruits up front.

Mike

Fabulous post!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Opus106 on May 12, 2013, 05:14:50 AM
Potentially luscious stuff

(http://media.mdt.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/4/7/4791560.jpg)

The Cube's making a come-back

(http://media.mdt.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/4/7/4780279_1.jpg)

Mmm... Frankfurter

(http://media.mdt.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/O/C/OC999.jpg)

The what?! Yuck!

(http://media.mdt.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/7/1/713008.jpg)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidRoss on May 12, 2013, 05:27:59 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on May 12, 2013, 05:14:50 AM
(http://media.mdt.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/O/C/OC999.jpg)
Here's a still:

(http://www.foodsubs.com/Photos/ringwurst.jpg)

The best part of this inventive staging is when Siegfried roasts hot dogs on a stick in the ring of fire surrounding Brünnhilde.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Wendell_E on May 12, 2013, 12:03:29 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on May 12, 2013, 05:14:50 AM
The what?! Yuck!

(http://media.mdt.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/7/1/713008.jpg)

And this particular "colon" has had an operation to shorten its length to seven hours, "in an edited version authorised by the Wagner family".   >:(
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on May 20, 2013, 04:35:56 AM
I recently went to watch Tristan at Finnish National Opera. I loved it, singers were awesome, especially Matti Salminen as Marke, Tommi Hakala as Kurwenal, Waltteri Torikka as Melot and Robert Dean Smith as Tristan. Now don't think me as sexist, I loved  Brangäne and Isolde also but to me this performance was ruled by main male singers. What I especially loved was how much Torikka was able to get out of Melot's somewhat small yet convincing role. When he drew his sword in "duel" against Tristan he was so badass. To me despite the cries "Hei unser Held Tristan" the biggest badasses in this opera will always be Melot and Kurwenal. Btw, in this production Kurwenal didn't die fighting Marke's men but stabbed himself. Matti Salminen also amazed me with his still powerful, thunder-like voice. Now you might say that Marke is not supposed to sound like that, but trust me: in this case it worked!

Orchestra was outstanding but unfortunately few my favorite passages were either played too quietly or quickly/slowly, for ex. the climax of the love scene in act 2 just before Kurwenal bursts in, during the words "endlos ewig, ein-bewusst". The set was somewhat simplified, yet convincing: the dominating elements were sun and moon, which of course represents daily world of honor, duty, etc. while moon represents night, love of Tristan and Isolde.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kaergaard on May 20, 2013, 07:07:29 PM
Quote from: Alberich on May 20, 2013, 04:35:56 AM
I recently went to watch Tristan at Finnish National Opera. I loved it, singers were awesome, especially Matti Salminen as Marke, Tommi Hakala as Kurwenal, Waltteri Torikka as Melot and Robert Dean Smith as Tristan. Now you might say that Marke is not supposed to sound like that, but trust me: in this case it worked!

Work it does indeed! I have the Virgin Classics DVD of the Tristan und Isolde with Matti Salminen as König Marke and had been convinced that René Pape owns this role. Not any more! Might have something to with the director - this production is by Patrice Chéreau - but the way Salminen floors Melot shows his great acting talent. It's the performance with Ian Storey as Tristan, worth adding to any Tristan collection.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Parsifal on May 20, 2013, 09:29:35 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 30, 2013, 11:33:20 AM
I apologise. I've had a bad day, and was too sensitive. Rather than jump down your throat I should have explained more carefully that I was trying to describe my own personal response to the bringing together of such trite soap-opera visuals with such great music, and such a profound myth. I can't conceive of anything they could have done in the intervening Siegfried that could reconcile me to that particular grotesque juxtaposition. (I'm aware that others may not encounter this as a problem.)

Gracious apology accepted.

I think we are approaching the music from different origins.  I don't find the underlying mythology of the Ring convincing.  I never quite resonate with what Wotan, the Gods, the Rheingold, is supposed to symbolize or how it relates to the plight of man.  However, there is glorious music and the drama that at least makes sense when taken piecemeal.  For instance, in the first act of Walkure there is the fugitive who takes shelter in a house only to find that is the home of his enemy.   The enemy is betrayed by his wife, who comes to the aid of the fugitive.  Dramatically and musically, that makes sense to me, Wotan, the Rheinmaidens, Valhalla and the Norns notwithstanding. 

I guess that's why I enjoy the Copenhagen ring.  Each scene is dramatized in a way that makes works for me, even if the mythology is compromised.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Elgarian on May 21, 2013, 11:01:56 AM
Quote from: Parsifal on May 20, 2013, 09:29:35 PM
I think we are approaching the music from different origins.  I don't find the underlying mythology of the Ring convincing.  I never quite resonate with what Wotan, the Gods, the Rheingold, is supposed to symbolize or how it relates to the plight of man.  However, there is glorious music and the drama that at least makes sense when taken piecemeal.  For instance, in the first act of Walkure there is the fugitive who takes shelter in a house only to find that is the home of his enemy.   The enemy is betrayed by his wife, who comes to the aid of the fugitive.  Dramatically and musically, that makes sense to me, Wotan, the Rheinmaidens, Valhalla and the Norns notwithstanding. 

I guess that's why I enjoy the Copenhagen ring.  Each scene is dramatized in a way that makes works for me, even if the mythology is compromised.

Yes, it very much looks as though these differences of approach are at the root of the differences in what we can tolerate. I think right from the start the mythology was vying for equal weight with the music, for me - in the sense that the two coming together make for a uniquely satisfying whole. I had one of those perception shifts the moment I encountered CS Lewis's observation that the primary need is not  to understand a myth, but to taste it; immerse oneself in it. That profoundly affected my attitude to myth and folk legend in general, and Wagner in particular. On this approach, it becomes far more important to experience Brunnhilde riding into the funeral pyre than to figure out, rationally, what it might mean. So the trick (at least, for me) is to go for the ride without really thinking too much about 'meaning' or about what I might think of as acceptable normal dramatic activity. I try to surrender to the composite entity of 'myth and music'; and I find I can only do that intermittently in the Copenhagen Ring.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on May 21, 2013, 11:11:41 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on May 21, 2013, 11:01:56 AM
Yes, it very much looks as though these differences of approach are at the root of the differences in what we can tolerate. I think right from the start the mythology was vying for equal weight with the music, for me - in the sense that the two coming together make for a uniquely satisfying whole. I had one of those perception shifts the moment I encountered CS Lewis's observation that the primary need is not  to understand a myth, but to taste it; immerse oneself in it. That profoundly affected my attitude to myth and folk legend in general, and Wagner in particular. On this approach, it becomes far more important to experience Brunnhilde riding into the funeral pyre than to figure out, rationally, what it might mean. So the trick (at least, for me) is to go for the ride without really thinking too much about 'meaning' or about what I might think of as acceptable normal dramatic activity. I try to surrender to the composite entity of 'myth and music'; and I find I can only do that intermittently in the Copenhagen Ring.

Excellent point.

I might add (for all that RW was keen to distance his work from mere opera) that in opera generally, an openness to experience the work for what it is, while resisting the intellectual impulse to analyze and evaluate, is de rigueur.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 21, 2013, 11:12:13 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on May 21, 2013, 11:01:56 AM
Yes, it very much looks as though these differences of approach are at the root of the differences in what we can tolerate. I think right from the start the mythology was vying for equal weight with the music, for me - in the sense that the two coming together make for a uniquely satisfying whole. I had one of those perception shifts the moment I encountered CS Lewis's observation that the primary need is not  to understand a myth, but to taste it; immerse oneself in it. That profoundly affected my attitude to myth and folk legend in general, and Wagner in particular. On this approach, it becomes far more important to experience Brunnhilde riding into the funeral pyre than to figure out, rationally, what it might mean. So the trick (at least, for me) is to go for the ride without really thinking too much about 'meaning' or about what I might think of as acceptable normal dramatic activity. I try to surrender to the composite entity of 'myth and music'; and I find I can only do that intermittently in the Copenhagen Ring.

About what it takes to enjoy a Spielberg movie. ;D


Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on May 21, 2013, 11:13:54 AM
Now, wait a cotton-pickin' minute, fella . . . .
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 21, 2013, 11:22:56 AM
Not that I'm not awed at Spielberg's talent at suspending belief.



Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on May 21, 2013, 11:24:40 AM
Agreed. But sometimes, the sap just runs too high.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 21, 2013, 11:31:09 AM
Yep. BTW, Karl, recognize my avatar?


Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on May 21, 2013, 11:33:18 AM
I don't believe I do . . . .
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on May 21, 2013, 11:35:57 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 21, 2013, 11:33:18 AM
I don't believe I do . . . .
Don't think music... think 20th century painter! Think naked ladies doing a Ring a Ring o' Roses...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 21, 2013, 11:38:41 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 21, 2013, 11:35:57 AM
Don't think music... think 20th century painter! Think naked ladies doing a Ring a Ring o' Roses...

;D Yep.


Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on May 21, 2013, 11:43:04 AM
Oh! I recognize him, now.

It's a canvas you must see in the space, to believe it!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on May 21, 2013, 11:45:21 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 21, 2013, 11:35:57 AM
Don't think music...

Thanks. I was half-thinking, "That might be Koechlin right after an annual beard-trim . . . ."
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Parsifal on May 21, 2013, 12:18:46 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 21, 2013, 11:45:21 AM
Thanks. I was half-thinking, "That might be Koechlin right after an annual beard-trim . . . ."

Now that someone is gone, it is ok to like Koechlin again, it would appear.  :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Parsifal on May 21, 2013, 12:25:45 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on May 21, 2013, 11:01:56 AM
Yes, it very much looks as though these differences of approach are at the root of the differences in what we can tolerate. I think right from the start the mythology was vying for equal weight with the music, for me - in the sense that the two coming together make for a uniquely satisfying whole. I had one of those perception shifts the moment I encountered CS Lewis's observation that the primary need is not  to understand a myth, but to taste it; immerse oneself in it. That profoundly affected my attitude to myth and folk legend in general, and Wagner in particular. On this approach, it becomes far more important to experience Brunnhilde riding into the funeral pyre than to figure out, rationally, what it might mean. So the trick (at least, for me) is to go for the ride without really thinking too much about 'meaning' or about what I might think of as acceptable normal dramatic activity. I try to surrender to the composite entity of 'myth and music'; and I find I can only do that intermittently in the Copenhagen Ring.

Granted, but we must distinguish between Myth and what, for lack of a better term, I'll call pseudo-Myth.  Myth may not make physical sense but it make psychological sense because it has spent hundreds or thousands of years being filtered through the collective consciousness of a civilization.  Wagner has made up his own Mythology (based on various primary sources) and I'm not entirely comfortable with what he's come up with.  It's hard to come up with a mythology that seems real (like Lord of the Dance Rings) and I tend to think Wagner's made a hash of it.   >:(
Title: Re: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on May 21, 2013, 12:40:43 PM
Quote from: Parsifal on May 21, 2013, 12:25:45 PM
. . .  Wagner has made up his own Mythology (based on various primary sources) and I'm not entirely comfortable with what he's come up with.

I affirm your right to discomfort, there (so to speak). I'm no great admirer of RW as a mythographer, either. It may run counter to the composer's wishes, but I admit that I enjoy the Ring partly because I feel at liberty to "discount" the librettist.
Title: Re: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on May 21, 2013, 01:00:01 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 21, 2013, 12:40:43 PM
I affirm your right to discomfort, there (so to speak). I'm no great admirer of RW as a mythographer, either. It may run counter to the composer's wishes, but I admit that I enjoy the Ring partly because I feel at liberty to "discount" the librettist.

We are aware that talking about "real Myths" is a bit, err... ironic (at the very least).
Title: Re: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Cato on May 21, 2013, 01:50:58 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 21, 2013, 12:40:43 PM
I affirm your right to discomfort, there (so to speak). I'm no great admirer of RW as a mythographer, either. It may run counter to the composer's wishes, but I admit that I enjoy the Ring partly because I feel at liberty to "discount" the librettist.

That brings back a Bruckner anecdote: supposedly he sat through (I believe) Götterdämmerung and at the end asked a fellow member of the audience exactly why Brünnhilde jumped into the fire at the end!

The music, not the drama, apparently held his attention.
Title: Re: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Parsifal on May 21, 2013, 02:19:58 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 21, 2013, 01:00:01 PM
We are aware that talking about "real Myths" is a bit, err... ironic (at the very least).

From Webster:

Quotea usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon

a popular belief or tradition that has grown up around something or someone; especially : one embodying the ideals and institutions of a society or segment of society

There is a difference between an authentic tradition and a "tradition" that was created as a literary device.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Elgarian on May 22, 2013, 12:59:41 AM
Quote from: Parsifal on May 21, 2013, 12:25:45 PM
Granted, but we must distinguish between Myth and what, for lack of a better term, I'll call pseudo-Myth.  Myth may not make physical sense but it make psychological sense because it has spent hundreds or thousands of years being filtered through the collective consciousness of a civilization.  Wagner has made up his own Mythology (based on various primary sources) and I'm not entirely comfortable with what he's come up with.  It's hard to come up with a mythology that seems real (like Lord of the Dance Rings) and I tend to think Wagner's made a hash of it.   >:(

Yes I see how that distinguishing process might be a necessity for you.  But the issue for me is not so much a matter of distinguishing between traditional myth, literary myth, or pseudo-myth - rather, it's a matter of attitude. It's an approach I choose to adopt because I've found it's worked pretty well for a very long time, so I'm in no hurry to change it. The matter isn't about one of us being right about the nature of Wagnerian myth (I don't care whether I'm right about that, or not), but about what enables the most enriching engagement with the music-drama for us, individually; and I think what we're doing here is identifying (partly) why we respond differently to the Copenhagen Ring.

Incidentally, I think I may now understand something that's puzzled me for a while: there's a common notion that certain kinds of Wagnerite are too uncritical; that they deliberately close their eyes to obvious flaws, and so on. I could be 'accused' of being like that myself, but it isn't in fact what I do. It's not wilful blindness (as it may seem), but deliberate acceptance; and the difference is crucial I think (though I may not have expressed it clearly enough).
Title: Re: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 22, 2013, 02:54:36 AM
Quote from: Cato on May 21, 2013, 01:50:58 PM
That brings back a Bruckner anecdote: supposedly he sat through (I believe) Götterdämmerung and at the end asked a fellow member of the audience exactly why Brünnhilde jumped into the fire at the end!

The music, not the drama, apparently held his attention.


If I'm correct Bruckner was at a performance of Die Walküre. After the curtain fell, he asked: 'Why did they burn that lady?'
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on May 22, 2013, 02:58:23 AM
Unrecorded was the doleful reply: Burning was far and away the best thing for her, all considered....
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 22, 2013, 02:59:38 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 22, 2013, 02:58:23 AM
Unrecorded was the doleful reply: Burning was far and away the best thing for her, all considered....


;D


And two operas later it happened.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Cato on May 22, 2013, 03:21:44 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 22, 2013, 02:58:23 AM
Unrecorded was the doleful reply: Burning was far and away the best thing for her, all considered....

Which sounds like my mother's opinion, any time I had any kind of opera emanating from my room: "When will they put that woman out of her misery?"  0:)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on May 22, 2013, 03:59:22 AM
"90 motives from the Ring." Collect 'em all!

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 22, 2013, 03:53:39 AM
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/febgmc/ringImuckblech.jpg)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on May 22, 2013, 04:02:00 AM
Quote"Only Jesus, Napoleon and Hitler have had more written about them," said Manuel Brug, cultural commentator with Die Welt, in an appraisal of the mountain of books published to mark the event.

Well, he sounds awfully sure that not nearly so much has been written about, say, Shakespeare . . . .

Wagner anniversary revives German debate over controversial composer (http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2013/may/21/wagner-anniversary-germany)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on May 22, 2013, 04:04:33 AM
I pity even the Wagners. Like the plot of The Ring, there are really no good choices to make.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on May 22, 2013, 04:21:29 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 22, 2013, 04:02:00 AM
Well, he sounds awfully sure that not nearly so much has been written about, say, Shakespeare . . . .

Wagner anniversary revives German debate over controversial composer (http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2013/may/21/wagner-anniversary-germany)

I think I get it, though. Comparing Wagner to Shakespeare would be to reduce him to a fellow artist.

Naturally, one compares him instead to God (Jesus) and two egomaniacs who threw the world into turmoil (Napoleon and Hitler).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on May 22, 2013, 04:33:46 AM
Happy 200th anniversary Richard! Greatest genius of all time, both in musical and literary sense, if you ask me!

And yes, I am one of those that thinks Wagner's librettos are among the greatest prose of 19th century. Deal with it.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on May 22, 2013, 04:39:46 AM
Quote from: Alberich on May 22, 2013, 04:33:46 AM
And yes, I am one of those that thinks Wagner's librettos are among the greatest prose of 19th century. Deal with it.

Easily. You're obviously an eccentric.

I wish you joy of the "greatest prose of the 19th century." (I find it incomparably funny just to type that. Deal with it.)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Beorn on May 22, 2013, 04:44:11 AM
He's no Emily Brontë! ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on May 22, 2013, 04:46:48 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on May 22, 2013, 04:44:11 AM
He's no Emily Brontë! ;)

:-)

I think it was a subtle dig. Wagner fancied he was writing poetry, but Alby here considers it the greatest prose . . . .
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Beorn on May 22, 2013, 04:48:10 AM
He's no Elizabeth Browning!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on May 22, 2013, 04:49:49 AM
I love seeing a photo of Harpo "saying" that!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Elgarian on May 22, 2013, 04:52:36 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on May 22, 2013, 04:44:11 AM
He's no Emily Brontë! ;)

He's no Enid Blyton either.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Beorn on May 22, 2013, 04:54:26 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on May 22, 2013, 04:52:36 AM
He's no Enid Blyton either.

I had to look her up.   :D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on May 22, 2013, 04:58:31 AM
I think there should be more opera characters named Enid.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on May 22, 2013, 04:59:30 AM
And he's no Victor Hugo. I get it, you think he wrote the most turgid writings of all time. Let me defend my decision with a quote from one of my favorite moments in Wagner's repertoire:

Hüte dich,
herrischer Gott!
Frevelte ich,
so frevelt' ich frei an mir:
doch an allem, was war,
ist und wird,
frevelst, Ewiger, du,
entreissest du frech mir den Ring!

This quote from Alberich is one of my main reasons why I  consider him one of the most tragic villains/heros of all time. Alberich reasons (and pretty damn convincingly if you ask me) that he was justified in his "robbery" of rheingold. I consider it wasn't actually even a theft. Alberich was told the price for acquiring the gold and making it into the ring was renouncing love. So when he has paid the price this hypocrite god robs him who himself didn't have a courage to do a deed that was required for making the ring and even lectures him that the gold belongs to rhinemaidens which is even more shameful when we know that Wotan has no intention of returning the ring to them. So, when Alberich only sinned against himself by renouncing love and obtaining the gold, Wotan, maker of all the rules that are carved into his spear's shaft, sins against everything that was, is and will be.

Great psychological analysis or the most nonsensical gibberish ever written? You may think the latter and I respect it. I rest my case. No hard feelings?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Elgarian on May 22, 2013, 05:02:18 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on May 22, 2013, 04:54:26 AM
I had to look her up.   :D

When I first read this, I thought you'd written: 'I had to lock her up'. So that's why she disappeared, I thought. Then I realised I'd had a brain-flip, and was thinking of Agatha Christie. Which brings us nicely back to Wagner the master of prose:

He's no Agatha Christie.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Elgarian on May 22, 2013, 05:05:55 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 22, 2013, 04:58:31 AM
I think there should be more opera characters named Enid.

I'd be happy to vote for that manifesto.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on May 22, 2013, 05:06:25 AM
Now, an Agatha-Christie-level libretto set to Wagner-level music: what a thrill that would be!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Elgarian on May 22, 2013, 05:10:57 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 22, 2013, 05:06:25 AM
Now, an Agatha-Christie-level libretto set to Wagner-level music: what a thrill that would be!

The grand climax: Brunnhilde gathers all the dramatis personae together in Hagen's library, and declares it was the butler who dunnit.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on May 22, 2013, 05:12:44 AM
And do not think I don't have some complaints about Wagner's prose. He is not perfect. I hate much of Brünnhilde's characterization in Götterdämmerung and the entire Siegmund's character should rot in hell (yet ironically I've seen many who think him as the most humane and likeable character in Ring). But neither was Victor Hugo perfect. Les miserables, one of my favorite books of all time, has passages that sound overly bombastic or moments when I think: what the hell does this has to do with a plot? And even though usually Hugo weaves the threads together, the transition is not always flawless.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Beorn on May 22, 2013, 05:21:20 AM
Quote from: Alberich on May 22, 2013, 05:12:44 AM
But neither was Victor Hugo perfect. Les miserables, one of my favorite books of all time, has passages that sound overly bombastic or moments when I think: what the hell does this has to do with a plot? And even though usually Hugo weaves the threads together, the transition is not always flawless.

I like Hugo but never made it to the end of that book.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Cato on May 22, 2013, 08:19:07 AM
I just heard the Goetterdaemmerung section of this:

[asin]B000003CUJ[/asin]

I was reminded of a similar recording by George Szell and The Cleveland Orchestra on Columbia in the late 1960's or early 70's.

[asin]B0000027VN[/asin]

More than one person at the time commented that it more than made the case for a complete performance of Der Ring by Szell and Cleveland.

Unfortunately, that never happened.



Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on May 22, 2013, 08:47:19 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on May 22, 2013, 04:54:26 AM
I had to look her up.   :D

Were you never a child? :-)

I had the hots for several (=all!) of her female characters.

Just finished writing and translating some 30.000 words about Wagner! Hojotoho! Heiaha, I'm done... but what gratifying work it was! Result (annual Almanach (http://www.freunde-bayreuth.org/html/engl.html)) to be published as the Bayreuth Festival starts.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 22, 2013, 11:13:28 AM
Quote from: Alberich on May 22, 2013, 04:33:46 AM
Happy 200th anniversary Richard! Greatest genius of all time, both in musical and literary sense, if you ask me!

Completely agree!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on May 22, 2013, 06:40:37 PM
I think I've  posted this quote from Leonard Bernstein before:

"I hate Wagner on bended knee".

And Alberich's defense of Alberich reminds me of what Bruce Montgomery (real name of the musician who wrote the Gervase Fen mysteries as Edmund Crispin) wrote in Swan Song, which centers on a British production of Meistersinger very soon after the end of WWII: that it was hard to understand why the Nazis venerated Wagner, given that the Ring is based on the premise that not even the gods could break an agreement without bringing the world down around their ears.

Though it is true that of all the characters in the Ring, it's Loge, Siegmund, Gunther and Gutrune that I feel most sympathetic to.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on June 20, 2013, 10:59:43 AM



Flying Dutchman Sketches & Doodles


(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-LBOA-F9R8gs/UcNG_p0giHI/AAAAAAAAGgM/nbaQDnSL3ws/s1600/Dutchman_graphic_Laurson_mope+Kopie.jpg)

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/06/flying-dutchman-sketches-doodles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/06/flying-dutchman-sketches-doodles.html)



(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-YEVpDNmCkus/UQ1nRixw-UI/AAAAAAAAGBc/JmJ2d8PdPk4/s1600/Richard_Wagner_laurson_600.jpg)

Minkowski's Sons of Meyerbeer: Wagner & Dietsch

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/06/minkowskis-sons-of-meyerbeer-wagner.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/06/minkowskis-sons-of-meyerbeer-wagner.html)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on June 20, 2013, 03:04:13 PM
That famous nose has been chipped off from a famous bust of the composer Wagner in venice. He died in Venice and on the 200th anniversary of his birth, his statue has been vandalised.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on June 30, 2013, 09:40:47 AM
Possibly still my favorite work by Richard Wagner:

[asin]0738572764[/asin]
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on June 30, 2013, 09:41:46 AM
Quote from: knight66 on June 20, 2013, 03:04:13 PM
That famous nose has been chipped off from a famous bust of the composer Wagner in venice. He died in Venice and on the 200th anniversary of his birth, his statue has been vandalised.

Mike

Pity.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Florestan on July 10, 2013, 11:33:55 AM
Quote from: Alberich on May 22, 2013, 04:33:46 AM
Happy 200th anniversary Richard! Greatest genius of all time, both in musical and literary sense, if you ask me!

And yes, I am one of those that thinks Wagner's librettos are among the greatest prose of 19th century. Deal with it.

Don't know if you are German but Arthur Schopenhauer would have laughed his a$$ out loud reading your post.  ;D

http://www.wagnersite.nl/Schopenhauer/Arthur.htm (http://www.wagnersite.nl/Schopenhauer/Arthur.htm)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on September 06, 2013, 12:23:24 AM



Notes from the 2013 Salzburg Festival ( 17 )
Die Meistersinger • Richard Wagner

Innocence Regained

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-IPkrK-57VLU/UfFuIMEi-QI/AAAAAAAAGt8/hWkrJhEEoRs/s1600/notesfromthesalzburgfestival2013.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--i3oDAHBiyQ/UiisfmT1yUI/AAAAAAAAHE8/smZoclgun9Q/s1600/Salzburg_Meistersinger_Krokodil_laurson_600.jpg)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/notes-from-2013-salzburg-festival-17.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/notes-from-2013-salzburg-festival-17.html)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: max on September 08, 2013, 09:20:33 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 22, 2013, 06:40:37 PM

...that it was hard to understand why the Nazis venerated Wagner, given that the Ring is based on the premise that not even the gods could break an agreement without bringing the world down around their ears.


This is an old cliche which has no basis in fact but still continues to be accepted as such only because the one top Nazi, Hitler, venerated Wagner. Even Alfred Rosenberg - good Jewish name - the "leading ideologist" of the party understood very well that Wagner was not one of them and that Nazi ideology could not be contained within Wagner's world view as expounded in his music dramas. Furthermore, the top Nazis absolutely resented having to go to the Wagner festivals as ordered by Hitler and spent the money going to beer parlors and popular shows instead - which made Hitler livid when he heard about it. Most high ranking Nazis were actually hostile to Wagner.

Also, from what I recall, as of 1939 Parsifal was no-longer allowed to be performed in Germany and finally the majority of operas that were performed during the period were by Mozart, Verdi and Puccini including a lot of operetta.

There are so many things still accepted as fact in reference to that period (and others) which is in desperate need of revision. Fortunately, much of history is being re-investigated as it must if it is to remain historical and not merely stories based on rumors or perception.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on September 09, 2013, 11:22:51 AM
About opera librettos: I get that most people find Wagner's writing style extremely boring, pompous etc. but the question I have is: Do you think there are any operas that have good or at least decent librettos, that has actually enjoyable writing and don't make you facepalm and shout: "Really, they actually said that?!"

And please note: I am not being hostile or anything. I am genuinely curious.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on September 09, 2013, 11:57:57 AM
Quote from: Alberich on September 09, 2013, 11:22:51 AM
About opera librettos: I get that most people find Wagner's writing style extremely boring, pompous etc. but the question I have is: Do you think there are any operas that have good or at least decent librettos, that has actually enjoyable writing and don't make you facepalm and shout: "Really, they actually said that?!"

And please note: I am not being hostile or anything. I am genuinely curious.

Yes! This one. Amazing libretto.

QuoteThey were much helped in their compelling, enchanting ways by a libretto so uncommonly good that it merits mention ahead of any other individual ingredient. How Braufels has managed to put together from the original French and Latin 15th century trial documents of Joan of Arc a libretto that makes this distant, far-removed story and its characters not just palpable but riveting for a 21st century audience is amazing. The text is alive, sensitive to modern sensibilities, gives life to its characters, is realistic and natural, taken straight out of life, written off the mouths of actual people, and not at all stereotypically "opera". There was genuine laughter, there were genuinely heartbreaking moments, and the ears were glued to the text—either the always clearly understandable lyrics or the supertitles—at all times, to make sure they wouldn't miss how the story progressed. It was possible to identify with every character, whether the worries were about the 14 black-spotted piglets having died or how to best entrap Joan into making a confession and retraction.

Quote

Notes from the 2013 Salzburg Festival ( 5 )
Walter Braunfels • Jeanne D'Arc
The Would-Be Future of Opera at Stake

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-IPkrK-57VLU/UfFuIMEi-QI/AAAAAAAAGt8/hWkrJhEEoRs/s1600/notesfromthesalzburgfestival2013.jpg)

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/notes-from-2013-salzburg-festival-5.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/notes-from-2013-salzburg-festival-5.html)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on September 09, 2013, 06:32:44 PM
Quote from: Alberich on September 09, 2013, 11:22:51 AM
About opera librettos: I get that most people find Wagner's writing style extremely boring, pompous etc. but the question I have is: Do you think there are any operas that have good or at least decent librettos, that has actually enjoyable writing and don't make you facepalm and shout: "Really, they actually said that?!"

And please note: I am not being hostile or anything. I am genuinely curious.

David's explanation of the Mastersong rules in Act I could be discreetly edited,  but beyond that Meistersinger is actually well written and everything in the libretto is ultimately necessary for the story, even Sachs's notorious speech in Act III acclaiming "German art" against foreign art.   And given that Parsifal is really a psychological drama,  all its long speechifying is rather defensible.     Tristan und Isolde, OTOH,  seriously needed an editor it never got.

And Wagner could make a very witty and sharp point when he wanted to.  Take a look at the very end of Rheingold, with Loge's answer to the Rhinemaidens bewailing their lost gold: it could be applied to most politicians in almost any age of this earth.

Moving beyond Wagner,  most of the more famous comic operas have earned their place in the hall of fame at least in part because of their libretti--think of Marriage of Figaro,  Falstaff, etc.   Otello among the tragedies (some people will tell you it's an improvement on Shakespeare because it drops the first act of the play and telescopes the action even more than the play does). Peter Grimes,  La Boheme.....it often helps to have a composer who was heavily involved in creating the libretto, like Britten and Puccini, and Verdi (although the latter has a few facepalm moments in Trovatore,  Don Carlos, and a few others along the way).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on September 10, 2013, 12:29:22 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 09, 2013, 06:32:44 PM
Take a look at the very end of Rheingold, with Loge's answer to the Rhinemaidens bewailing their lost gold: it could be applied to most politicians in almost any age of this earth.

Agreed, I think it is one of the highlights of the opera. And agreed about the rest of your post as well. I know many practically unknown operas that have amazing music but are not part of the main repertoire because of awful libretto. For ex. Rachmaninoff's The Miserly knight or Strauss's Die Liebe der Danae.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Florestan on September 15, 2013, 09:09:58 AM
Quote from: Alberich on September 09, 2013, 11:22:51 AM
About opera librettos: I get that most people find Wagner's writing style extremely boring, pompous etc. but the question I have is: Do you think there are any operas that have good or at least decent librettos, that has actually enjoyable writing and don't make you facepalm and shout: "Really, they actually said that?!"

And please note: I am not being hostile or anything. I am genuinely curious.

The most no-nonsense libretto I know is Carmen.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on September 21, 2013, 11:44:05 PM
Jeffrey listed the  ones I was thinking of with the Mozart and Verdi masterpieces. The libretto to Berlioz les Troyans is pretty good. Janacek librettos make perfect sense and are appropriately dramatic. My personal favourite is Peter Grimes. Another opera for adults is Salome, which is not in every day naturalistic language, but is a heightened poetic approach from Wilde's play in French and translated into German.

Wagner provides a lot of insights in his libretto, but areas are turgid and repetitive. I would have been in favour of scissors, but now, I don't like the standard cuts that for instance are still used in Tristan.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 08, 2013, 06:58:49 PM
Lyric Opera of Chicago's performance of Parsifal by Richard Wagner will be streaming live on WFMT this Saturday night (Nov. 9th) at 7:00 Eastern/6:00 Central at www.wfmt.com

More info can also be found here (http://www.lyricopera.org) at Lyric's website including a short video introduction from Sir Andrew Davis, Renee Fleming and Anthony Freud.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 10, 2013, 03:06:21 PM
A video from the Lyric Opera of Chicago's production of Parsifal...

https://www.youtube.com/v/bj0p-Zxu7CY#t=78
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 19, 2013, 06:20:51 AM
Parsifal was amazing. I've always enjoyed The Ring Cycle, but but seeing, and hearing in its entirety for the first time, Parsifal has really boosted Wagner and his importance in opera and music in my mind. Parsifal is 4 hours of music that stays consistent with its themes and motifs, its pacing and most of all, the emotionally charged story.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brahmsian on November 19, 2013, 07:18:36 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on November 19, 2013, 06:20:51 AM
Parsifal was amazing. I've always enjoyed The Ring Cycle, but but seeing, and hearing in its entirety for the first time, Parsifal has really boosted Wagner and his importance in opera and music in my mind. Parsifal is 4 hours of music that stays consistent with its themes and motifs, its pacing and most of all, the emotionally charged story.

The Prelude to Parsifal, along with the Good Friday Music scene, are pure gorgeous music.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on November 25, 2013, 08:11:17 AM
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_-LAuQYaovA/UpODeyol33I/AAAAAAAAHU4/FvRiutVN9lg/s1600/LISTEN_600_Winter2013.png)
http://www.listenmusicmag.com/composer/wagner-the-revolutionary.php

Wagner the Revolutionary

REBELLION, MA NON TROPPO!
(http://www.listenmusicmag.com/composer/wagner-the-revolutionary.php)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 22, 2013, 12:07:50 PM
My brother, who plays in the Lyric Opera of Chicago, sent me this link. He had mentioned to me Lyric was discussing a future Cycle... (http://chicagoclassicalreview.com/)

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on December 23, 2013, 04:21:55 AM
FWIW, WCRB played the Valkries' Galumph this morning (it was Erich Kunzel & the Cincy Pops, so came a passage where they really schlumphed into the galumph).  A genuinely weird item to program two mornings before Christmas.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 23, 2013, 04:37:55 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 23, 2013, 04:21:55 AM
FWIW, WCRB played the Valkries' Galumph this morning...A genuinely weird item to program two mornings before Christmas.

I don't know...Hojotoho, hojotoho has a rather festive ring, doesn't it?  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on December 23, 2013, 04:41:50 AM
Hah!  Right you are, dear fellow.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Cato on December 23, 2013, 05:24:22 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 23, 2013, 04:21:55 AM
FWIW, WCRB played the Valkries' Galumph this morning (it was Erich Kunzel & the Cincy Pops, so came a passage where they really schlumphed into the galumph).  A genuinely weird item to program two mornings before Christmas.

Undoubtedly from this CD:

[asin]B000003CUY[/asin]

Such things are usually not known to have any subtlety in their interpretation!   ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on December 23, 2013, 05:26:54 AM
Exactly.  Will not fault The Bugger of Bayreuth for that . . . .  0:)    8)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brahmsian on December 23, 2013, 05:29:05 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 23, 2013, 05:26:54 AM
Exactly.  Will not fault The Bugger of Bayreuth for that . . . .  0:)    8)

Perhaps you meant The Bahhumbugger of Bayreuth?   ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on December 23, 2013, 05:34:53 AM
Hah!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Fafner on December 23, 2013, 05:50:24 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 23, 2013, 04:37:55 AM
I don't know...Hojotoho, hojotoho has a rather festive ring, doesn't it?  8)

Sarge

ROFL  ;D

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on December 23, 2013, 06:30:18 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 23, 2013, 04:21:55 AM
FWIW, WCRB played the Valkries' Galumph this morning (it was Erich Kunzel & the Cincy Pops, so came a passage where they really schlumphed into the galumph).  A genuinely weird item to program two mornings before Christmas.

Perhaps they were giving a musical equivalent to all the last minute shoppers.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Octave on December 28, 2013, 12:02:47 AM
Just some willynilly shillery, in case it hasn't been mentioned; it's not really news.

I just ran across yet another (March 2013) reissue of the Böhm RING, this time from Decca/Eloquence, perhaps notable for a new AMSI remastering exclusive (??) to this edition.  I have heard sharply mixed reactions to various AMSI masterings, but one Amazon UK reviewer asserted that it was a real improvement here.  I see that the set is 12 discs, not 14; the aforementioned Amazon UK reviewer only mentioned SIEGFRIED being reformatted to one act per disc .*

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81W6u3s1soL._SL1500_.jpg)
ASIN: B00AX20AHI  (available from Amazon UK, etc...but apparently not from Amazon US)
EDIT: here's a different ASIN for US-MP availability, but for the moment it's much more expensive: B00BHNQ1N4

I imagine this would mainly be of interest to those who don't own the Bohm at all.  Though of course that big GREAT OPERAS FROM THE BAYREUTH FESTIVAL set (also Decca) came back into print ~this year, and it includes the Bohm (in the older mastering?).
Either set (Eloquence RING or the big DECCA ~collected operas box) for the moment comes to ~$2/disc.

* an Amazon U.S. reviewer says: "It's only 12 discs, with Walküre and Siegfried on 3 each with all the bad breaks removed. The Götterdämmerung act III disc break is still present, though. Sound is a different remaster, but it sounds better IMO, but honestly not that different."

Another Amazon U.S. reviewer is rather stronger with both praise and irritation: "The sound has been opened up, capturing the unique acoustic of the Bayreuth Festival theater even more splendidly than in previous incarnations. Die Walkure is now on three discs, eliminating the break in Act Three (though there still is an unavoidable break in Act Two done, however, at a musically appropriate moment) and Siegfried is on three discs (an act a disc) with no breaks at all within the acts. Sounds perfect? Not quite. The third act of Gotterdammerung is still split - very unnecessarily - over two discs when it could easily has been accomodated on the last disc with no break. It would have run all of 74 minutes, shorter than some other discs in the set."
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on December 28, 2013, 03:52:22 AM
Some folk need to remember the days of 78s when you would almost have stood over the discs to change them every few minutes and in LP days every 20 minutes or so. One break.....big deal.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Madiel on December 28, 2013, 01:53:32 PM
Quote from: knight66 on December 28, 2013, 03:52:22 AM
Some folk need to remember the days of 78s when you would almost have stood over the discs to change them every few minutes and in LP days every 20 minutes or so. One break.....big deal.

Mike

But surely that just emphasises the point - that the breaks are now technically unnecessary. The complaint isn't about breaks, it's about needless breaks.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on December 30, 2013, 07:47:59 AM
Yes, one across 15 hours.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Itullian on December 30, 2013, 01:01:19 PM
Quote from: orfeo on December 28, 2013, 01:53:32 PM
But surely that just emphasises the point - that the breaks are now technically unnecessary. The complaint isn't about breaks, it's about needless breaks.

EXACTLY!!!!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Madiel on January 03, 2014, 01:39:58 PM
Quote from: knight66 on December 30, 2013, 07:47:59 AM
Yes, one across 15 hours.

Mike

When it comes to unnecessary breaks, that's one more than most things in my collection!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on March 17, 2014, 05:53:58 AM
MishaK, you can sigh in relief. I no longer consider Lohengrin Wagner's worst (or should I say: "least good") mature opera. After relistening it again for a few times I grew more deeply attached to it. I've been listening especially the prelude and I can say that it's orchestration is amazing! I think the reason I liked it less than his other operas first was because I picked a bad recording of it. First impressions really do count. So now Tannhäuser is my least favorite (although I still love it). And I kind of regret my complaining of Elsa's character when compared to Elizabeth (she's kind of a bland character) she is as convincing as Shakespeare's Ophelia. At least Elsa has a humane weakness in that she can't help herself asking the forbidden question. Elizabeth is just a saint.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on March 17, 2014, 01:47:13 PM
Quote from: Alberich on March 17, 2014, 05:53:58 AM
MishaK, you can sigh in relief. I no longer consider Lohengrin Wagner's worst (or should I say: "least good") mature opera. After relistening it again for a few times I grew more deeply attached to it. I've been listening especially the prelude and I can say that it's orchestration is amazing! I think the reason I liked it less than his other operas first was because I picked a bad recording of it. First impressions really do count. So now Tannhäuser is my least favorite (although I still love it). And I kind of regret my complaining of Elsa's character when compared to Elizabeth (she's kind of a bland character) she is as convincing as Shakespeare's Ophelia. At least Elsa has a humane weakness in that she can't help herself asking the forbidden question. Elizabeth is just a saint.

Elisabeth wants to break out of the restrictive moral corset of the Wartburg chaps... not that much of a saint, actually... although the temptation to portray her as such is certainly there. There's much to Tannhaeuser, too, about freedom vs. licence et al.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on March 18, 2014, 04:56:29 AM
The funny thing with Tannhäuser is that even though you're not supposed to root for him in act 2 I personally always did and when everyone is trying to kill him for being at Venusberg I usually yell: "Come on, people, lighten up!"
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on March 18, 2014, 11:58:46 AM
Quote from: Alberich on March 18, 2014, 04:56:29 AM
The funny thing with Tannhäuser is that even though you're not supposed to root for him in act 2 I personally always did and when everyone is trying to kill him for being at Venusberg I usually yell: "Come on, people, lighten up!"

You are supposed to kind of root for him. Wagner certainly did. Well, at least he didn't root for the uptight Wartburgboys! They're the embodiment of illiberty from which Elisbaeth must flee to attain freedom... whereas Tannhaeuser must leave the license of Venus behind him to find true freedom.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on April 22, 2014, 07:30:40 AM
I have to modify my statement about Tchaikovsky being anti-Wagnerian. That is not completely true. I read some of his letters and articles where he acknowledged that Wagner's music had many innovative, even genius attributes. Here is a quote from an article that he wrote for the Russian Register:

"And so, by way of conclusion, I should like to say something about the overall impression which this performance of Der Ring des Nibelungen has left me with. Firstly, it has left me with a vague recollection of many strikingly beautiful musical features, especially of a symphonic kind, which is very strange, given that Wagner least of all intended to write operas in a symphonic style. Secondly, it has left me with respectful admiration for the author's tremendous talent and his incredibly rich technique. Thirdly, it has left me with misgivings as to whether Wagner's view of opera is correct. Fourthly, it has left me greatly exhausted, but at the same time it has also left me with the wish to continue my study of this most complicated work of music ever written."

That's not completely negative statement, is it? Things that he didn't like in Wagner were his handling of myths (this is actually true with many genuine Wagnerians such as Bruckner, known for his famous comment after seeing Götterdämmerung: "Tell me, why did they burn that lady in the end?"),that he found as "impossible and unhuman" and, in most cases, the singing itself. He noticed how "symphonic" his use of leitmotives was and remarked essentially that Wagner would have made a terrific symphony composer but that he was unsuited for opera.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jochanaan on April 22, 2014, 11:53:43 AM
It sounds as if P.I. deeply admired Wagner but felt no real wish to emulate him.  In the only Tchaikovsky opera I'm familiar with, Eugene Onegin, perhaps the only "Wagnerian" feature is the continuous arc of glorious musical sound in each act--like hearing a 3-hour-long Tchaikovsky symphony.  None of the great ballet scores I know, much as I like them, come close to the continuous beauties of Onegin.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on April 23, 2014, 05:50:39 AM
From page that I quoted this article I also read that only work that he openly acknowledged being influenced by Wagner, was Francesca da Rimini that he wrote during his visit at Bayreuth to see Ring.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Florestan on April 24, 2014, 07:25:36 AM
Quote from: Alberich on April 22, 2014, 07:30:40 AM
"And so, by way of conclusion, I should like to say something about the overall impression which this performance of Der Ring des Nibelungen has left me with. Firstly, it has left me with a vague recollection of many strikingly beautiful musical features, especially of a symphonic kind, which is very strange, given that Wagner least of all intended to write operas in a symphonic style. Secondly, it has left me with respectful admiration for the author's tremendous talent and his incredibly rich technique. Thirdly, it has left me with misgivings as to whether Wagner's view of opera is correct. Fourthly, it has left me greatly exhausted, but at the same time it has also left me with the wish to continue my study of this most complicated work of music ever written."

Thank you so very much for posting it! This might be the most accurate and sincere description of Wagner's music ever penned by a non-Wagnerian --- and it only reinforces my love for Tchaikovsky, my being decidedly straight and father of one boy notwithstanding!  ;D ;D ;D

QuoteWagner would have made a terrific symphony composer but that he was unsuited for opera.
My thoughts exactly.  :D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on April 26, 2014, 02:09:36 AM
You're very welcome, Florestan. I love Tchaikovsky as well, one of my favorite composers!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brahmsian on July 08, 2014, 05:03:32 AM
Starting my summer tradition:

Day 1 - Das Rheingold!  :)

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Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on July 08, 2014, 05:18:05 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on July 08, 2014, 05:03:32 AM
Starting my summer tradition:

Day 1 - Das Rheingold!  :)

[asin]B0000042H5[/asin]

Great! Although that's not my very favourite recording, Solti's Das Rheingold is definitely wonderful, with a thrilling Donner's theme, even better than the Karajan.

Theorically, Day 1 should be Die Walküre; Das Rheingold is the prologue. ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brahmsian on July 08, 2014, 05:38:11 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on July 08, 2014, 05:18:05 AM
Theorically, Day 1 should be Die Walküre; Das Rheingold is the prologue. ;)

Oh yes.  ;D  However, it is Day 1 of my listening journey.  Day 1 of 10.  That's a summer holiday tradition for me.  :)

Solti's prelude to Das Rheingold sends shivers up my spine every time.  It never fails.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: DavidW on July 08, 2014, 05:55:51 AM
I'm thinking about starting another traversal of the Ring soon.  I have the Barenboim blu-ray set waiting to be watched.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brahmsian on July 08, 2014, 06:57:34 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on July 08, 2014, 05:18:05 AM
Great! Although that's not my very favourite recording, Solti's Das Rheingold is definitely wonderful, with a thrilling Donner's theme, even better than the Karajan.

Please indulge me, dear Ilaria.  Where specifically does the Donner theme appear in Solti's Rheingold?  I recognize several themes within The Ring, but not all of them yet.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on July 08, 2014, 07:51:13 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on July 08, 2014, 06:57:34 AM
Please indulge me, dear Ilaria.  Where specifically does the Donner theme appear in Solti's Rheingold?  I recognize several themes within The Ring, but not all of them yet.

In the fourth scene, when the gods prepare to enter the Walhall; Donner summons clouds, mists and thunders into a lightning-storm to clear the air. Solti's performance is very powerful and intense, with loud, gorgeous percussion in the thunderstorm:

Heda! Heda! Hedo!
Zu mir, du Gedüft!
Ihr Dünste, zu mir!
Donner, der Herr,
ruft euch zu Heer!

Auf des Hammers Schwung
schwebet herbei!
Dunstig Gedämpf!
Schwebend Gedüft!
Donner, der Herr,
ruft euch zu Heer!
Heda! Heda! Hedo!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brahmsian on July 08, 2014, 07:57:05 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on July 08, 2014, 07:51:13 AM
In the fourth scene, when the gods prepare to enter the Walhall; Donner summons clouds, mists and thunders into a lightning-storm to clear the air. Solti's performance is very powerful and intense, with loud, gorgeous percussion in the thunderstorm:

Heda! Heda! Hedo!
Zu mir, du Gedüft!
Ihr Dünste, zu mir!
Donner, der Herr,
ruft euch zu Heer!

Auf des Hammers Schwung
schwebet herbei!
Dunstig Gedämpf!
Schwebend Gedüft!
Donner, der Herr,
ruft euch zu Heer!
Heda! Heda! Hedo!


Excellent, thank you Ilaria!  :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on July 08, 2014, 09:16:43 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on July 08, 2014, 07:57:05 AM
Excellent, thank you Ilaria!  :)

You're welcome, Ray!

Quote from: ChamberNut on July 08, 2014, 05:38:11 AM
Oh yes.  ;D  However, it is Day 1 of my listening journey.  Day 1 of 10.  That's a summer holiday tradition for me.  :)

Solti's prelude to Das Rheingold sends shivers up my spine every time.  It never fails.

Of 10? That means you're going to listen to one act a day, maybe apart from the first opera of the Tetralogy that has four scenes in a row. Anyway, enjoy it! :)

Yes, the prelude is one of the most magical, mesmerizing parts of Wagner's Das Rheingold as well as of the whole Ring; Wagner's mastery of contrapuntal texture, harmonic richness and of evoking incredible, real imagines through a wide, colourful orchestration is impressive: such a deep, majestic and mystical atmosphere introducted by the brass in the nature motif, then brilliantly developed by arpeggios of strings, and finally the powerful, whirling woodwinds enter in a massive, beatifully overwhelming crescendo of the entire orchestra for the Rhine motif. You really seem to move from the gloomy, cold depths of the Rhine, where life begins and the gold shines, to the brighter, floating waves of the surface; absolutely awesome.
I agree Soltis' prelude is terrific, though I prefer how Karajan handles orchestra and dynamics.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on July 08, 2014, 09:35:55 AM
My favourite recording of the first scene is from a disc by Kempe. Only extracts were recorded, the sound is good, the performance lyrical, but with plenty of momentum.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brahmsian on July 08, 2014, 11:18:51 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on July 08, 2014, 09:16:43 AM
You're welcome, Ray!

Of 10? That means you're going to listen to one act a day, maybe apart from the first opera of the Tetralogy that has four scenes in a row. Anyway, enjoy it! :)


Yes, 10 days.  Das Rheingold for Day 1, then one act a day for the remaining 9 days (Twilight of the Gods will have the Prologue and Act I).  :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Moonfish on July 08, 2014, 12:47:58 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on July 08, 2014, 11:18:51 AM
Yes, 10 days.  Das Rheingold for Day 1, then one act a day for the remaining 9 days (Twilight of the Gods will have the Prologue and Act I).  :)

A Wagner summer! What a great idea Chambernut! Enjoy!!!    :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brahmsian on July 09, 2014, 10:31:18 AM
Act I and II

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Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on July 10, 2014, 05:47:14 AM
How many wagnerian fans here follow the Bayreuth Festival?
Since I discovered the links of the radio that broadcast this musical event, I listen to the first week of the Festival every summer; this year the operas comprised in the programme are: Tannhäuser (Kober), Der Fliegende Holländer (Thielemann), Lohengrin (Nelsons) and Der Ring des Nibelungen (Petrenko). Wonderful choices, though I was a little disappointed to know neither Tristan und Isolde nor Die Meistersinger were included, they are two of my favourite Wagner's music dramas.
There are no new productions, but those singular ones shown in 2013, which it would be best not to say anything about. But at least, the orchestral playing will be amazing.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brahmsian on July 10, 2014, 12:59:33 PM
Act III

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Hojotoho! Hojotoho! Heiaha! Heiaha!  :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Leo K. on July 10, 2014, 03:09:33 PM
It's been a Wagner summer for me too. I first listened to Theilmann's recent DG cycle a couple times, great performance! I then listened to Bohm's account, it's amazing and I can't wait to revisit!

But when I heard Goodall's cycle (sung in English) it was a revelation. Hearing it sung in my native tongue made the drama intimate and real, it was a whole difference experience! I'm listening to Siegfried now.  8)

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Moonfish on July 10, 2014, 05:08:52 PM
How do you guys like Gergiev's recording of "Das Rheingold"?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brahmsian on July 11, 2014, 08:27:53 AM
Siegfried - Act I and Act II (my favourite two acts in The Ring cycle)

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Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on July 11, 2014, 08:36:53 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on July 11, 2014, 08:27:53 AM
Siegfried - Act I and Act II (my favourite two acts in The Ring cycle)
*pounds the table*
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brahmsian on July 16, 2014, 07:12:59 AM
Finishing up my Ring Journey today!  :)  Highly enjoyed it!

[asin]B0000042H8[/asin]
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on July 16, 2014, 08:59:29 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on July 10, 2014, 05:08:52 PM
How do you guys like Gergiev's recording of "Das Rheingold"?

Not great, but good. His Walküre is better... real quality stuff. (Also: More German-speaking singers.) Janowski's Rheingold is brilliant. In fact, his entire Ring would be, if it weren't for unaccountably off singing in Goetterdaemmerung by some of the finest Wagnerians of our day. Hmpf.

What I've said about it here, before:

Quote from: jlaurson on September 12, 2013, 12:46:12 PM
Earlier:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00CZ9CMNC.01.L.jpg)
R. Wagner
Die Walküre
M.Janowski / RSO Berlin
T.Konieczny, I.Vermillion, R.D.Smith
M.Diener, T.Riihonen, P.Lang
PentaTone SACDs (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00CZ9CMNC/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00CZ9CMNC/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00CZ9CMNC/goodmusicguideuk-21)

Making my way through this. I wish Thielemann, instead of having two so-so sounding rings with so-so or actually not-so-so casts, had ever been recorded in such sonic glory. But maybe that's just unfair to Janowski and he's much better suited to working the cause of Wagner than the cause of Brahms & Bruckner et al., which I had found rather dull and disappointing so far, for the most part.

Now:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00D93NFMU.01.L.jpg)
R. Wagner
Das Rheingold
V.Gergiev / Mariinsky
Pape, Gubanova, Rügamer,
Putilin, Popov, Nikitin, Petrenko
Mariinsky Live SACDs (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00D93NFMU/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00D93NFMU/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00D93NFMU/goodmusicguideuk-21)

A very strong reading for the most part: wonderful Fricka (warmer than Janowski's), aloof Wotan unfortunately (though Pape is quite good even studio-atmosphere-aloof, even with missing high notes), a very good Loge (Rügamer) and Fasolt (Nikitin) and a dramatically reasonably compelling Alberich (Putilin). But Popov's Mime is a sad joke that will make any native speaker cringe fearsomely. Nor does the rest of the cast have a clue what they're singing.

Next up:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00BJSFV5Q.01.L.jpg)
Richard van Beethoven
String Quartets opp.18/ 3 & 5, 135
Myrios SACD (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00BJSFV5Q/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00BJSFV5Q/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00BJSFV5Q/goodmusicguideuk-21)

Quote from: jlaurson on September 17, 2013, 01:33:18 AM
Walkuere was very good, I thought... passionate reading, lushly romantic and searing... and a cast of great singers.
The Rheingold has some of the same qualities and many good singers (though Rene Pape is a little disappointing as Wotan), a tad rushed (but not more so than Petrenko did with the Rheingold in Bayreuth this year, and he was praised to the skies). But the godawful Mime almost throws it, with his phonetically read-out 'German'... if, that is, you are a German speaker. Otherwise it just sounds awkward, which it might as well, seeing how he's a strange little dwarf who might as well have a speech/language impediment.

That said, I'm not yet sure whether Gergiev would get my nod, if I had to decide, or Janowski's SACD cycle -- which is (as are his other operas in that project -- surprisingly good (not just Kapellmeisterisch) and benefits from a certain frission that might come from the fact that they were recorded live and Gergiev's in the studio.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Moonfish on July 16, 2014, 10:53:10 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 16, 2014, 08:59:29 AM
Not great, but good. His Walküre is better... real quality stuff. (Also: More German-speaking singers.) Janowski's Rheingold is brilliant. In fact, his entire Ring would be, if it weren't for unaccountably off singing in Goetterdaemmerung by some of the finest Wagnerians of our day. Hmpf.

What I've said about it here, before:

Thank you! Sounds like Gergiev's "Die Walkure" is worth checking out...   :)
I tend to gravitate towards Bohm and Solti, while simultaneously reaching out for other recordings such as Janowski or the more vintage Bayereuth ones. So much to explore in Valhalla! I take it that Janowski's is your favored digital ring cycle?

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kaergaard on July 17, 2014, 09:52:05 AM
I have to remind the Wagner fans, this much praised Solti production is just that a production.
It is not a recording of a live opera performance. The singing of the performers and the playing of the orchestra has gone through the editing process tirelessly, studiously - annoyingly? - often enough until Solti was happy with the totality of the manufactured Concert!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Brahmsian on July 17, 2014, 09:56:08 AM
Quote from: kaergaard on July 17, 2014, 09:52:05 AM
I have to remind the Wagner fans, this much praised Solti production is just that a production.
It is not a recording of a live opera performance. The singing of the performers and the playing of the orchestra has gone through the editing process tirelessly, studiously - annoyingly? - often enough until Solti was happy with the totality of the manufactured Concert!

Noted.  It does not detract in my enjoyment of it in the least bit.

Next time I listen to it, I'll make sure I put an asterisk beside it, noting it is highly processed, manufactured product.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on July 17, 2014, 10:40:45 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on July 17, 2014, 09:56:08 AM
Next time I listen to it, I'll make sure I put an asterisk beside it, noting it is highly processed, manufactured product.

There isn't one among us who doesn't secretly enjoy one - or more - of these processed products. But you didn't hear it from me....



Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Moonfish on July 17, 2014, 10:49:05 AM
Hmm, sounds like we are discussing peanut butter rather than classical music....   ???
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Leo K. on July 17, 2014, 01:03:30 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on July 17, 2014, 09:56:08 AM
Noted.  It does not detract in my enjoyment of it in the least bit.

Next time I listen to it, I'll make sure I put an asterisk beside it, noting it is highly processed, manufactured product.

That's hilarious!  :)

How funny some newbie poster has to come out of the woodwork to give us an education.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kaergaard on July 17, 2014, 02:23:50 PM
Newbie? Who?
Surely you don't mean me?   :laugh:
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 17, 2014, 02:58:54 PM
Quote from: kaergaard on July 17, 2014, 02:23:50 PM
Newbie? Who?
Surely you don't mean me?   :laugh:

Well, you didn't post in this thread until post #24, so that makes you sort of a newbie... If you had at least started the thread, it would give you more credibility. :D

8)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Leo K. on July 17, 2014, 03:23:58 PM
Quote from: kaergaard on July 17, 2014, 02:23:50 PM
Newbie? Who?
Surely you don't mean me?   :laugh:

Sorry, I've been cranky today  :o  :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 17, 2014, 04:37:41 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on July 17, 2014, 03:23:58 PM
Sorry, I've been cranky today  :o  :)

:D  Been there!  Ole kaergaard has been here almost as long as me. She changes her name all the time, not sure why...   0:)

8)

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on July 18, 2014, 08:35:30 AM
Quote from: kaergaard on July 17, 2014, 09:52:05 AM
I have to remind the Wagner fans, this much praised Solti production is just that a production.
It is not a recording of a live opera performance. The singing of the performers and the playing of the orchestra has gone through the editing process tirelessly, studiously - annoyingly? - often enough until Solti was happy with the totality of the manufactured Concert!

Surely editing doesn't change tempo? I thought the editing was mainly used to make the sound more refined etc. But tempo? That is one of the most important things to me that is a road either to ruin or to victory. And solti nails it perfectly. And doesn't he have several magnificent recordings where he doesn't use that much editing or even recordings (and even videos) of live performances? And everything runs just smoothly to me.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Madiel on July 19, 2014, 02:48:48 AM
Quote from: kaergaard on July 17, 2014, 09:52:05 AM
I have to remind the Wagner fans, this much praised Solti production is just that a production.
It is not a recording of a live opera performance. The singing of the performers and the playing of the orchestra has gone through the editing process tirelessly, studiously - annoyingly? - often enough until Solti was happy with the totality of the manufactured Concert!

I'm trying to think of any reason why opera audio recordings should be immune from all of the studio processes used on audio recordings of every other kind of classical music, and I'm coming up with a big fat blank.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on July 19, 2014, 10:54:34 AM
The Halle under Sir Mark Elder has released concert performances of Gotterdammerung (2010) and Walkure (2012).   Anyone know if / when they might be releasing the other two installments?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: marvinbrown on August 04, 2014, 06:14:30 AM

  Well well well......Wagner finally gets the SACD treatment! To be released on Sept. 22, 2014:

  [asin]B00LNE0FL6[/asin]

  So how about it Wagnerians?? Do we chuck our CD players in the bin, buy an SACD player and invest in this?  Well at £350 its not cheap! Plus the player will run you another few hundred pounds  >:(.  Well? What do you guys make of this?

  marvin
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Chaszz on August 31, 2014, 12:24:24 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 17, 2014, 02:58:54 PM
Well, you didn't post in this thread until post #24, so that makes you sort of a newbie... If you had at least started the thread, it would give you more credibility. :D

8)

Gurn, what are you doing here in the late nineteenth century? I am shocked!

I remember a comment you made somewhere or other awhile ago, in reply to something I had said, can't remember what or where it was, to the effect that late Romantic music is self-indulgent inferior stuff. I don't get to GMG much lately, so I might have missed your being here in this section, but anyway am pretty surprised.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Chaszz on August 31, 2014, 12:28:40 PM
Quote from: lisbeth on July 17, 2014, 09:52:05 AM
I have to remind the Wagner fans, this much praised Solti production is just that a production.
It is not a recording of a live opera performance. The singing of the performers and the playing of the orchestra has gone through the editing process tirelessly, studiously - annoyingly? - often enough until Solti was happy with the totality of the manufactured Concert!

With his desire for total control of the total art-work, Wagner were he alive today might be cutting and pasting tape or software segments just like Gould and Solti.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on September 19, 2014, 04:51:37 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on July 10, 2014, 05:08:52 PM
How do you guys like Gergiev's recording of "Das Rheingold"?
Haven't heard it but he strikes me as the sort whose interpretation doesn't extend further than 4 bars. The fact that he is allowed to conduct Wagner at all is a miracle. Maybe he is ok in a live performance but when in a recording you get to scrutinize over every bar I can't imagine he would be amongst the prime choices.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on December 13, 2014, 07:41:45 AM
Wagner: Der Fliegende Holländer, Andris Nelsons, Royal Concertgebouw live recording May 2013.

As a keen follower of Nelsons' work, I got hold of this new issue as soon as I could. The piece is performed in its one act version and Nelsons throws a vast arc across it, as it powers its way from stormy opening to dramatic end. He does not neglect the more reflective music and the long duet between the Dutchman and Senta has a marvelous conversational feel to it. The singers are very good. Terj Stensvold has been a national treasure in Norway for decades before suddenly launching a now very distinguished international career. He has quite a dry but very expressive voice, he never barks and conveys the total world weariness of the character without degraded tone. This ia a baritone voice, not a deep bass voice. Anja Kampe is a superb, fearless Senta, as good as I have heard. I was not too keen on the Daland of Kwangchul Youn which displays too much vibrato for my taste, but he does make the words tell.

The chorus consists of four small German choirs brought together, I assume they are at least semiprofessional and the quality of their singing prompted them to be imported. They sound terrific. The third act men's choral singing is exciting. The only more visceral version I know is the live Bohm, the penalty there is Gwyneth Jones at her wildest. The orchestra sound is full and forward. At the end, no polite clapping, the audience immediately starts cheering.

The discs are available mid price, I got the set for £16 including postage. There is a full libretto, both discs sit on one spindle, which I thought odd.

So, it is an exciting set, up to the standard I had hoped. Now I want later Wagner from Nelsons.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ritter on December 13, 2014, 08:44:59 AM
Thanks for these interesting comments, knight66! The recording certainly appears enticing...

I've never heard of Stensvold, but Anja Kampe for sure is a great artist, her Sieglinde this summer in Bayreuth having been quite beautiful! Pity about the excessive vibrato you notice in Youn's voice, but (from when I've seen him live, twice as Gurnemanz--a masterful portrayal--and once each as Hunding and as Henry the Fowler) I agree with you that he is an artist who pays admirable attention to the words.

Perhaps you know it already, but you have Nelsons doing a (just slightly later) Wagner opera on DVD--the controversial, but in the end successful Neuenfels production of Lohengrin from Bayreuth...

[asin]B007ZB7UT6[/asin]

...and he's slated to conduct the new Parsifal on the Green Hill in 2016 (the production who's director has just recently been changed).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on December 13, 2014, 09:57:00 AM
Thanks Ritter, I somehow usually find Lohengrin like watching paint dry, though I do enjoy listening to it. I have a version on DVD and have not so far managed to get through it. By comparison the CDs fly by.

He has a new Boston Sobelius disc, but I am not prepared to pay more for the shipping than the disc costs.....I will have to be patient.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on December 13, 2014, 10:16:54 AM
Listening to this today
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516hM7az19L.jpg)
Total timing is 3 hours 40 minutes, so I am wondering what got cut?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on December 13, 2014, 10:24:08 AM
Don't start me. I junked that set a long time ago.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ritter on December 13, 2014, 11:10:01 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 13, 2014, 10:16:54 AM
Listening to this today
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516hM7az19L.jpg)
Total timing is 3 hours 40 minutes, so I am wondering what got cut?
Nothing is cut, Jeffrey! It's just a different approach to the piece...Boulez emphasizes the theatrical and purely musical sides of the score, to the detriment of the ritualistic and solemn aspects other conductors highlight. I, for one, much prefer this "streamlined" approach :)

Cross-quoted from the Parsifal thread:

Quote from: ritter on December 09, 2014, 04:16:51 AM
.... you are missing one very, very important recording of the piece, one that demonstrates that widely diverging approaches to this music are valid and worthwhile. You're missing this :) :

(http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/imgs/s300x300/4357182.jpg)
Sorry, can't help proselytizing: for me, reading the words "Parsifal" and "Boulez" on the same cover brings together what in IMHO are two of the greatest summits of the art of music... :D :D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on December 13, 2014, 12:33:44 PM
True, and where I decide to get off the bus. It is also hampered by that blot on the soundscape, Gwyneth Jones. Nigel Wilkinson who used to post here, very knowledgeable, he likes Jones a lot. In Wagner I can never hear past the swooping up to notes and the wobble as wide as the Nile. Best thing she does in that set is scream at the start of Act 2.

   http://youtu.be/wwkAyw_IeoI 

This is her on a good night.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on December 13, 2014, 01:48:38 PM
Having listened, I have to disagree with you, Ritter.  Act I was reduced to a dull talkfest,  and Act III almost as bad.  Only Act II was good (Jones did not bother me).   The "ritual" moments are an integral part of the musical fabric,  and Boulez just trotted through them.
Not exactly in the reject pile,  in case I change my mind, but I have enough other versions that it will be merely an archival item.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on December 13, 2014, 09:50:58 PM
My reaction to it was similar to yours Jeffrey, but more extreme. It was my first encounter with the opera and put me off listening to it for about a decade, until I decided to have another try with Karajan. Not that I push that set at folks particcularily, but I started to get the point of the piece.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on December 13, 2014, 09:56:55 PM
Ritter, I just realised that the Lohengrin you suggested has the Vogt in it. How do you find his singing? He seems to divide opinion. I had a Das Lied with him in it and his singing puzzled me, it did not sound there like a robust voice. But many do enjoy his early Wagner roles.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ritter on December 14, 2014, 12:56:10 AM
Quote from: knight66 on December 13, 2014, 09:56:55 PM
Ritter, I just realised that the Lohengrin you suggested has the Vogt in it. How do you find his singing? He seems to divide opinion. I had a Das Lied with him in it and his singing puzzled me, it did not sound there like a robust voice. But many do enjoy his early Wagner roles.

Mike
Well, Vogt is a singer that certainly does divide opinion. I saw him live as Parsifal at the Deutsche Oper in Berlin a couple of years ago, and I must say he was very convincing in the role. This is a very musical singer, who pays great attention to phrasing and whose voice projects very clearly in the theatre. It's his peculiar, "boyish" timbre that generates rejection is some quarters, but I think his sound is a valid alternative in roles such as Parsifal, Lohengrin and Stolzing. And in Bayreuth, his Lohengrin of the past several summers has been a huge success with the audience (well, his good looks and stage presence obviously help  ;) ).

You can hear him as Parsifal in a recording under Jaap van Zweden on Challenge Classics, as Lohengrin under Janowski on Pentatone (and on DVD under Nagano--from Baden-Baden--and in the Bayreuth production I mentioned earlier) and as Stolzing also on DVD from Bayreuth (in a production of Meistersinger by Katharina Wagner full of interesting ideas but which IMHO is a failure in the end).

Cross-posted from the WAYLTN thread:
Quote from: ritter on December 14, 2014, 08:44:55 AM
Inevitably, after all the talk in the Wagner's Walhalla thread:

(http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/imgs/s300x300/4357182.jpg)

Act 1
;) Gentlemen! I beg to disagree...I've relistened to Act 1, and this recording is superb! The way Boulez clarifies the textures of this impressive score, making all the details of the extraordinary orchestration perceptible to the listener, is impressive... :)...and the speed complements this approach perfectly...nothing is rushed, it's just a logical forward motion that heightens the dramatic thrust...despite the enigmatic labelling as a Bühnenweihfestspiel, let's not forget this is music theatre (or opera, if you wish), not an oratorio or, God forbid  ;D, a mass.

And the singing is invariably good (even Gwyneth Jones's sometimes "wild" soprano, which fits the role of Kundry perfectly well)...

Sorry, I'm not an "incense and ritual" Parsifal kind of guy...I prefer the music and the drama to speak for themselves, as Boulez manages to do... :D

Cheers, Jeffrey and Mike!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on December 15, 2014, 12:02:52 PM
Thanks for the info on Vogt, I need to losten to him in something other than Das Lied. He struck me as potentially a good lieder singer with the comparitavely light accompaniment from the piano.

On the Boulez Parsifal, happy with your assessment, despite not being able to enjoy it.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ritter on December 15, 2014, 01:06:22 PM
Quote from: knight66 on December 15, 2014, 12:02:52 PM
Thanks for the info on Vogt, I need to losten to him in something other than Das Lied. He struck me as potentially a good lieder singer with the comparitavely light accompaniment from the piano.
...

Mike
And I have to listen to that DLvdE, which I have in this set...

[asin]B00DYFCZ5Q[/asin]

...but haven't managed to tackle yet  :-[

The lineup (Gerhaher, Vogt, Nagano), in any case, looks promising  :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on December 16, 2014, 01:36:16 PM
I like Gerhaher very much indeed in lieder. His singing is always thoughtful.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Chaszz on December 18, 2014, 04:06:25 PM
Last night I saw the encore of the Met HD at the movies current production of Meistersinger. Altogether very enjoyable, with some caveats. The first is the heft of Johann Botha as Walther. I'm just a garden-variety opera lover, not an expert or a fanatic, so I may not be as accustomed as I should be to 400-pound romantic leads. I mean really, they insisted that Deborah Voigt lose a good deal of weight to continue her career at Covent Garden, and she did. Can't someone demand this guy do the same? It is beyond my suspend-disbelief capability to see him as a romantic lead who is attractive to an attractive woman. Is it sexism that the opera powers-that-be reject this in a woman but accept it in a man? On a different note, sorry if I am breaking a PC rule here as far as weight-challenged people are concerned. 

Annette Dasch as Eva is a wonderful singer but overacts, squared. Most opera singers overact. They are probably taught to in order to project their facial expressions and body language to the back and the top of the big houses, and we can't expect to see closeups of this and not notice it. But she lays it on twice as thick as the others in the cast. Her eyes are often so wide with adoration or surprise that they threaten to pop out of her head. Apart from her overacting, she is fine. 

Michael Volle as Sachs is a powerful and versatile singer, and a very good and versatile actor. I am just sort of nonplussed that he seems to bring a lot of pessimism and annoyance to the role. The scene in Act III where Sachs ruminates on the craziness of the riot of the evening before, and craziness in the world in general, is usually contemplative and elegaic; Volle plays it mostly angry and sometimes even despairing. Throughout the opera where Sachs is typically good-humoredly resigned to and accepting of situations, with Volle he is consistently angry and pessimistic. It would be interesting to ask him where his interpretation of the role springs from. 

The traditional set by Otto Schenk, used for several previous productions, is OK, but in the last act it is inexplicable in two ways. The end of the act takes place on a meadow outside Nuremberg, which setting accords with the air of grand sunny spaciousness expressed by the music throughout and especially in the latter part of this act. The set here cuts off the space with a large unnecessary bridge across the entire background, so the meadow seems constrained and boxed in. Then the sky is darker than it would be on a sunny day -- this is a festival scene after all -- and even seems to be threatening a storm. I saw a production using this set 6 or 7 years ago at the Met, and the sky was the same then. Doesn't make sense.   

Maestro Levine seems to have resolved his physical problems at least for the time being, and does a splendid job bringing the score to life and controlling it. The riot scene and parts of the finale scene have to be some of the most complex music ever written for chorus and orchestra and he and his forces do it all terrifically. The quintet of singers in the middle of Act III is superb also. At such moments it is hard not to feel and think that opera is the supreme art form.

But another caveat. Perhaps partly because of Volle's interpretation, but mostly due to Wagner's libretto, some of Sachs' thoughts and doings seem not to make clear sense. Here is a stanza from his craziness-reflection soliloquy:
No-one has reward
or thanks for it:
driven to flight,
he thinks he is hunting;
hears not his own cry of pain;
when he digs into his own flesh
he thinks he is giving himself pleasure!
Who will give it its name?

Like many thoughts expressed in the opera, this doesn't quite make sense. Unless perhaps we assume that Wagner is espressing his own sadism or sadomasochism.

Why is Sachs so cruel to his apprentice cobbler David throughout? And just before the quintet, he decides to baptize Walther's prize song - an odd notion in itself -- and during the baptism ceremony, he decides to promote David from apprentice to journeyman and gives him a painful box on the ear to celebrate it, telling him to remember it. Why? Likewise Pogner is giving away his daughter Eva as a prize in the song contest. Perhaps not the best way of treating a beloved daughter as opposed to a farm animal. BUT, he tempers this by decreeing she must approve the match. Okay. BUT, then he takes power away from her again by saying she may not marry anyone else but the prizewinner. Biff, boom, bam. Then, some of the feelings expressed by Eva toward Sachs where she seems to welcome him, a much older man, as a possible suitor at the same time as she recalls childhood scenes where he was like a second father to her, are uncomfortable. What are we to make of all these moral gyrations? And other little strange observations and situations that occur throughout. From the colored-and-scented underwear-wearing moralist who also brought us the opera of Buddhist-like compassion that is obsessed with illnesses of the blood and blood rituals, and several operas wherein leading characters will themselves to commit suicide for dubious reasons and without weapons, simply expiring on the stage without physical cause. Here, a sunny-seeming masterpiece and a paean to German art and musical originality, with lurking just below the surface many quite strange moral observations and impulses.

Nonetheless a supreme work of music. A friend I discussed this with reminded me that genius is sometimes given to the most unlikely people.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on December 18, 2014, 05:55:48 PM
Wagner's stage directions mention the river, and people arriving at the festival via the river, so the bridge per se is not out of place.

I think the box on the ear is medieval tradition, not Wagner's invention.   But it is a brave man who would psycoanalyze der Meister von Bayreuth.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jo498 on December 19, 2014, 02:06:41 AM
Prizewinner gets the princess is a fairy-tale tradition. Not realistic wrt 16th century Nuremberg, but neither was marriage for love, very probably local and guilds policies would have been a major factor determining the possible spouses for the only daughter of a rich and important Master goldsmith.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on December 19, 2014, 07:26:49 AM
As with Mime in Rheingold and Siegfried I find Beckmesser's treatment bit cruel, although less so than Mime's. Now granted Beckmesser is pedantic, bit narrow-minded guy who lets his feelings for Eva cloud his judgment of Walther's song. But, to his credit, rest of the meistersinger (apart from Sachs) don't like Walther's first song either so probably he wouldn't have passed the singing test in any case. Also apart from beforementioned vices, Beckmesser seems relatively ok guy. He never does anything eeeviiill in the opera, he genuinely is thankful to Sachs when he donates Werbelied to him and seems to consider him a true friend, thus his public humiliation feels bit uncomfortable, even if he for some extent brought it on himself. However, Mime's treatment makes Beckmesser's seem like nothing. Mime is treated like dirt by everyone in Ring so while his attempted murder of Siegfried is an overreaction, I feel tremendous sympathy for him and he has good reason to be bitter to Siegfried. He even has some noble qualities such as being willing to let Alberich, his tyrannical brother who tortured him, keep the Ring in exchange for Tarnhelm. However, I have hard time seeing him as negative jew stereotype because Wagner mentioned after attending rehearsal of Berlin Siegfried production about the jewish singer of Mime: "A jewish dwarf, BUT excellent". The quote however reminds us that whether or not some of his villains were intended negative jewish stereotypes or not, he still was intense antisemite. Although that is easily one of his milder antisemitic statements.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on December 19, 2014, 07:33:49 AM
Speaking of meistersinger, in March next year I am going to my first live Meistersinger performance.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on December 20, 2014, 07:21:21 AM
Quote from: Alberich on December 19, 2014, 07:26:49 AM
As with Mime in Rheingold and Siegfried I find Beckmesser's treatment bit cruel, although less so than Mime's. Now granted Beckmesser is pedantic, bit narrow-minded guy who lets his feelings for Eva cloud his judgment of Walther's song. But, to his credit, rest of the meistersinger (apart from Sachs) don't like Walther's first song either so probably he wouldn't have passed the singing test in any case. Also apart from beforementioned vices, Beckmesser seems relatively ok guy. He never does anything eeeviiill in the opera, he genuinely is thankful to Sachs when he donates Werbelied to him and seems to consider him a true friend, thus his public humiliation feels bit uncomfortable, even if he for some extent brought it on himself. However, Mime's treatment makes Beckmesser's seem like nothing. Mime is treated like dirt by everyone in Ring so while his attempted murder of Siegfried is an overreaction, I feel tremendous sympathy for him and he has good reason to be bitter to Siegfried. He even has some noble qualities such as being willing to let Alberich, his tyrannical brother who tortured him, keep the Ring in exchange for Tarnhelm.

I think Mime's fate couldn't be different, both in Das Rheingold and in Siegfried and it perfectly shows what happens to whom renounces love: in the Prologue, he is tortured and enslaved by the cruel Alberich, because Alberich rejects love for power, so he can't feel mercy for anyone anymore, not even for his brother. In the Second Day, Mime is a cunning character (for example, in the dialogue with the Wanderer), but also vile and fraudulent, and as a matter of fact, he tries to poison Siegfried with a potion to take possession of the treasure, after the boy's victory; his mean and grotesque figure should represent, in the composer's conception, that obscure background which the young hero must seem more splendid and brighter against; he saves and grows up Siegfried not for compassion, as well as what urges him to forge Notung and to let Alberich keep the Ring in exchange for Tarnhelm are not heroism and generosity, he only wants power and vengeance, very well reminded in the prelude to evoke Mime's reminiscences: the huge treasure piled up in the bowels of the earth (Hortmotiv), the slavery (Fronmotiv) and especially the Ring, which lets who renounces love rule the world (Ringmotiv).
Let's not forget what Mime says in the finale of the first act of Siegfried:

Even Alberich,
who once thrust me in thrall,
I now can compel
to dwarf-drudgery;
I shall go down there again
as lord of the Niblungs;
the whole host
shall be my slaves!
The despised dwarf
will be so revered!
To my hoard will flock
gods and heroes:
at my nod
the world will kneel,
at my wrath
it will tremble!
Then truly Mime's toil
will be over:
others will make
eternal wealth for him.
Mime the bold,
Mime is king,
prince of the elves,
ruler of all!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Chaszz on December 20, 2014, 08:03:59 AM
For what it's worth, I've always felt too that Mime was cruelly treated all around. Especially as he was the only live parent Siegfried had. Siegfried's hatred for him and the food and lodgings he provides, and his loosing the bear upon him, are cruel and excessive, and deepen my conviction that Wagner exhibits some sadism in his texts. Of course, it could be countered that Siegfried's "pure" soul is instinctively aware of the evil hidden by Mime's apparent altruism, and this justifies his contempt for Mime. In this IMO Siegfried acts like other "pure" souls who instinctively know whom to hate, even when the hating involves stereotyping whole classes and races of people. We have seen throughout history, and especially in the 20th century, the results of this pure, knowing and instinctive hating.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on December 20, 2014, 08:33:34 AM
@ Lisztianwagner: I don't deny that Mime is cunning and powerhungry. But he is hardly the only such a character in the opera, for ex. Wotan and Alberich are too after power and riches (although Wotan seems to grow out of it) yet they are dealt with more sympathy from Wagner. Wagner confessed to Cosima he feels every sympathy for Alberich and some of his past letters back in 1850s he signed as "Your Nibelung prince, Alberich", meaning he indentified himself with him, something that can be seen from the operas too, with Wotan's acknowledgement that in the end he and Alberich aren't too different. Original ending of Götterdämmerung also mentions that Alberich is redeemed from lovelessness and hatred that plagues him, something which can be the case in the final version too although not outright stated. Even Fafner gets some understanding as he dies and warns Siegfried of Mime. Fricka's desire for Ring as well as her want of Siegmund's death is perfectly understandably portrayed too. Hagen can also be seen as pitiable and Wagner never seems to outright condemn him. IIRC, the original ending of götterdämmerung has Brünnhilde tell Gutrune that it was not Hagen who really had slain Siegfried. I don't have text of siegfrieds tod at hand so I can't recall if he condemned gods instead of Hagen at that point. Gunther and Gutrune seem like victim of cirumstances. Yet Mime is the only one who Wagner seems to feel no sympathy. I can certainly understand Siegfried being suspicious of Mime even if he has no proof. It's just that Siegfried goes well beyond that, he seems to abuse him because he seems to divinely sense that he is plotting something, thus he needs no proof. This is ironically also the part I like as much as I dislike. It shows that Siegfried is not hero in shining armor, pure good but instead falls into grey and gray morality Ring seems to have. The reason why I also dislike it is that it seems Wagner considers Siegfried's unpleasant side show more in his falling prey to the love potion that makes him forget all about Brünnhilde, not so much in his shabby treatment of Mime just because he suspects he MIGHT be evil.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on February 10, 2015, 01:59:07 PM
The Ring Cycle is rich of a mysterious symbolism, it's not simple to understand Wagner's meanings.
About Siegfried, he is a particular character: nature, sensitiveness and unconsciousness are the principle aspects of the wagnerian description; he is bright and innocent, but also violent and arrogant, full of life, heroism, loyalty and victory; with no fear, possession, just asking for adventures without rest (I inherited only my own body, and that I waste away as I live), peculiarly tender in his love for creatures and for his mother. In my opinion, he rejects Mime without reasons, because of stereotypes of classes and races, but instead because of an instinctive perception of the right laying in the ground of his unconsciousness, the same unconsciousness that protects him from Mime's tricks and apparent kindness, and later from the curse of the Ring; he always rises against the forces of evil, and to hurt, first he has to be stunned by a magical potion. In some aspects, more or less, he is similar to the pure fool Parsifal; both know nothing of the world and of themselves.
I don't think Wagner was intentionally unsympathetic with Mime, in the Völsunga saga, one of his main sources, Regin (Wagner's Mime) acts more or less in the same way: avid for gold and corrupted by the power of the ring, he tempts Sigurd (Siegfried) to greed and violence by first asking him if he has control over his father's treasure, then by telling him the story of the Gold; he uses Sigurd to kill his brother Fafnir to take possession of the Gold and after Sigurd's victory, he plots his death. The only difference is that Regin is able to forge the hero's sword.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on February 12, 2015, 03:22:47 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on February 10, 2015, 01:59:07 PM
that protects him from Mime's tricks and apparent kindness, and later from the curse of the Ring

Doesn't Siegfried eventually fall a victim to a curse too, though? I believe both Alberich and Wotan state that the reason Siegfried at first is immune to a curse is because he doesn't really know what it is capable of. In fact, just shortly after rhinemaidens inform Siegfried about Ring's power and he decides to keep it to himself, he does get murdered, like the rest of the curse's victims. Siegfried's decision to keep the ring kind of seems to me as an indication that he is not above material temptations of the ring after all. He is under the effect of the love potion at that moment but love potion hardly makes one crave after wealth, which probably means he was liable to greed from the beginning. One other reason for him to keep the ring could have been that he wanted to spite the rhinemaidens. Maybe it was both.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on February 12, 2015, 05:21:17 AM
Quote from: Alberich on February 12, 2015, 03:22:47 AM
Doesn't Siegfried eventually fall a victim to a curse too, though? I believe both Alberich and Wotan state that the reason Siegfried at first is immune to a curse is because he doesn't really know what it is capable of. In fact, just shortly after rhinemaidens inform Siegfried about Ring's power and he decides to keep it to himself, he does get murdered, like the rest of the curse's victims. Siegfried's decision to keep the ring kind of seems to me as an indication that he is not above material temptations of the ring after all. He is under the effect of the love potion at that moment but love potion hardly makes one crave after wealth, which probably means he was liable to greed from the beginning. One other reason for him to keep the ring could have been that he wanted to spite the rhinemaidens. Maybe it was both.

He only falls once Brunnhilde has betrayed him. Because of his unconsciousness, his pureness and because he knows no fear, Siegfried can't be hurt by the curse; as Wotan says to Erda: "Rejoicing in love, innocent of envy, his nobility will quell Alberich's curse for fear remains foreign to him." When he meets the Rhinemaidens, he doesn't want to give them the ring at first, since it reminds him his victory on th dragon, but then he is willing to leave it: this time the Rhinemaidens tell Siegfried to keep the ring till he will not be aware of its curse. Siegfried decides to keep the ring, not because he is greedy for gold and power, not even unconsciously (in fact, he was already told about the immense power of the ring by the woodbird, but he didn't care of that), the love potion hasn't changed his pureness, but because, I agree, annoyed by their threats and derision, he wants to spite the Rhinemaidens.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on February 12, 2015, 07:12:29 AM
"Valhalla and Nibelheim
bow before him.
Even my curse is blunted
on that fearless hero:
for he does not know
the ring's value
and makes no use
of its unique power."

Alberich, Götterdämmerung, act II.

You're right though about the fact that woodbird has already told Siegfried that the one who has Ring would become ruler of the world, contrary to what Alberich says in my quote. Is this inconsistency on Wagner's part? Then again, Alberich probably didn't know that woodbird had told Siegfried about the ring, I guess he merely thought Siegfried just happened to pick Tarnhelm and Ring from the pile of gold nuggets, lucky guess for Siegfried.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on February 12, 2015, 08:06:57 AM
Very probably. Otherwise, it could be that, although the woodbird has told him about the ring, Siegfried doesn't understand how it is possible that a so small thing could give a so great power, or anyway, he has no interest in becoming ruler of the world. As a matter of fact, when he comes out of Fafner's cave after killing the dragon, Siegfried doubtfully looks at the ring and the Tarnhelm; and later, he admits he has almost forgotten about the Nibelungs' treasure when Hagen reminds it to him.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on February 27, 2015, 10:12:04 AM
A couple of months ago I found an Abbado Wagner disc on Spotify.
Tannhauser Overture
Parsifal Act 1 prelude
Parsifal suite from Act 3
Tristan prelude and Liebstod
Berlin Phil

The Parsifal was recorded live and contains choral voices in the suite. Altogether there are 38 minutes of the opera. It was the Parsifal I enjoyed so much. This to the extent I bought the disc to get it in better sound. It is slow but not sluggish and the bleeding chuncks sound fairly organic. It is terrifically powerful music making. The Tristan music is beautifully done, the Tannhauser, less to my taste. Overall, it is satisfying when I don't have time for a full act but need a full-on Wagner fix.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ritter on February 27, 2015, 12:38:40 PM
Quote from: knight66 on February 27, 2015, 10:12:04 AM
A couple of months ago I found an Abbado Wagner disc on Spotify.
Tannhauser Overture
Parsifal Act 1 prelude
Parsifal suite from Act 3
Tristan prelude and Liebstod
Berlin Phil

The Parsifal was recorded live and contains choral voices in the suite. Altogether there are 38 minutes of the opera. It was the Parsifal I enjoyed so much. This to the extent I bought the disc to get it in better sound. It is slow but not sluggish and the bleeding chuncks sound fairly organic. It is terrifically powerful music making. The Tristan music is beautifully done, the Tannhauser, less to my taste. Overall, it is satisfying when I don't have time for a full act but need a full-on Wagner fix.

Mike
I've enjoyed this disc for years, and yes, it's because of the Parsifal excerpts...wonderful performnace, and the Good Friday Spell is one of the best I know...Pity a complete Parsifal from Abbado was never commercially recorded...

Cheers,
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 10, 2015, 10:55:29 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on February 12, 2015, 08:06:57 AM
Very probably. Otherwise, it could be that, although the woodbird has told him about the ring, Siegfried doesn't understand how it is possible that a so small thing could give a so great power, or anyway, he has no interest in becoming ruler of the world. As a matter of fact, when he comes out of Fafner's cave after killing the dragon, Siegfried doubtfully looks at the ring and the Tarnhelm; and later, he admits he has almost forgotten about the Nibelungs' treasure when Hagen reminds it to him.

Isn't it that the potion he's been given makes him forget, as it makes him forget Brunnhilde?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on July 11, 2015, 12:11:25 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 10, 2015, 10:55:29 PM
Isn't it that the potion he's been given makes him forget, as it makes him forget Brunnhilde?
No, he says that before drinking the potion.

"I almost forgot the treasure,
so poorly do I prize its possession!
I left it to lie in a cavern
where once a dragon guarded it."

(Götterdämmerung, act 1^, scene two)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on July 11, 2015, 03:19:47 AM
BTW, does Siegfried suffer from amnesia? Right after he emerges from the cave in act 2 of Siegfried, carrying Ring and Tarnhelm, he says that he has no clue what to do with them, even though the woodbird has just moments earlier told him what those objects are capable of. Maybe at least the ring could be explained with that he just can't believe it could possibly make you ruler of the world.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on July 11, 2015, 04:57:30 AM
Quote from: Alberich on July 11, 2015, 03:19:47 AM
BTW, does Siegfried suffer from amnesia? Right after he emerges from the cave in act 2 of Siegfried, carrying Ring and Tarnhelm, he says that he has no clue what to do with them, even though the woodbird has just moments earlier told him what those objects are capable of. Maybe at least the ring could be explained with that he just can't believe it could possibly make you ruler of the world.
Indeed; Siegfried is, in some way, like the pure fool Parsifal, who doesn't know anything.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ritter on July 11, 2015, 05:33:10 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on July 11, 2015, 04:57:30 AM
Indeed; Siegfried is, in some way, like the pure fool Parsifal, who doesn't know anything.
Or, as very aptly put by Anna Russell: "he's very handsome, and he's very strong, and he's very brave, and he's very stupid!"  ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on July 11, 2015, 07:07:21 AM
Having studied prose drafts of Ring, I have to say that Wagner's opinion about Mime might not be completely negative one either. He often speaks of Mime in draft of Rheingold in pitying tone. I guess he had empathy with fictional creations.

Unfortunately, being more empathetic than Wagner was towards real people... doesn't take that much.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on July 25, 2015, 04:35:29 AM
Found amusing quote: Tristan using alias "Tantris" when seeking medical help from Isolde, could be compared to Winston Churchill sneaking into the Nazi cabinet by using the alias Chinston Wurchill.

Ring-related question: is it ever revealed who claims Nibelungenhort after Siegfried kills Mime and leaves it unused in Fafner's cave? The only person left alive after the events of the cycle who knows about this hoard is Alberich (well, he and the Woodbird but I doubt she cares for the treasure). Does he reclaim it? That view is supported by Andvari of Norse Mythology (who was partly a model to Wagner's Alberich) finding his lost gold in the cave, even though the Ring (Andvaranaut) was gone.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 25, 2015, 04:56:56 AM
Quote from: Alberich on July 25, 2015, 04:35:29 AM
Found amusing quote: Tristan using alias "Tantris" when seeking medical help from Isolde, could be compared to Winston Churchill sneaking into the Nazi cabinet by using the alias Chinston Wurchill.

Ring-related question: is it ever revealed who claims Nibelungenhort after Siegfried kills Mime and leaves it unused in Fafner's cave? The only person left alive after the events of the cycle who knows about this hoard is Alberich (well, he and the Woodbird but I doubt she cares for the treasure). Does he reclaim it? That view is supported by Andvari of Norse Mythology (who was partly a model to Wagner's Alberich) finding his lost gold in the cave, even though the Ring (Andvaranaut) was gone.

In the Nibelungenlied, after Hagen kills Siegfried, Kriemhild (Siegfried's widow) claims the treasure and brings it to Worms, the Burgundian capital. But Brunnhild and King Gunther confiscate it after which Hagen steals it and sinks it in the Rhine (in modern day Worms there is a statue of Hagen doing that). With the death of Hagen, the treasure is permanently lost. Of course Wagner ignored all this in the Ring and Hagen dies a villain (in the original story he eventually becomes a hero).

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/web/PA080036_1024.jpg)

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on July 25, 2015, 05:16:48 AM
Interesting statue and information! I recall having read something about that, long time ago.

Oh well, whatever the case, Alberich is a dwarf. He probably has means to find more gold whether he got the treasure or not (supported by information that he bribed Grimhilde with gold to sleep with him after Rheingold's occurrences).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on July 25, 2015, 08:04:04 AM
Watching Met production of Walküre from 2013. For some reason I often feel embarrassed at the part in act III where Brünnhilde tells Sieglinde's history to other valkyries. It just feels so unnecessary. Sure, it doesn't last long unlike Wotan's 45 minute monologue in act II about earlier events, but I see the one in act II as necessary in expressing character development Wotan is undergoing. This one in act III feels a waste, to some extent. It's a 75 minute-act, full of wonderful music and the part I mentioned lasts hardly a minute, so it's funny how this one moment bothers me. And considering the other valkyries didn't know anything about Sieglinde, I really don't see a way around it.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on August 05, 2015, 10:08:51 AM

Fresh from Forbes:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GS9pLMtbk04/VIB7VKbHqeI/AAAAAAAAHvs/QnxWx_SUGxc/s1600/Forbes_SOUND_ADVICE_laurson_2_600.jpg)

AUG 5, 2015
The 2015 Bayreuth Festival Ring: Das Rheingold

...The Rhinemaidens were a terrific trio, extremely even and very good and saucy
actresses all, svelte blondes, sexed-up lascivious bombshells with ankles to which
no English critic could object....

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/08/05/the-2015-bayreuth-festival-ring-das-rheingold/
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2015/08/Rheingold_Bayreuth_2015_Koch-Dohmen-Daszak_jens-f-laurson.jpg) (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/08/05/the-2015-bayreuth-festival-ring-das-rheingold/)
[/quote]
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on August 07, 2015, 12:45:58 AM

Fresh from Forbes:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GS9pLMtbk04/VIB7VKbHqeI/AAAAAAAAHvs/QnxWx_SUGxc/s1600/Forbes_SOUND_ADVICE_laurson_2_600.jpg)

AUG 5, 2015
The 2015 Bayreuth Festival Ring: Die Walküre

...But one casts Botha for his voice and has to accept that, dramatically, he
isn't the bee's knees, being easily out-acted by the more talented of the two
live turkeys in the cage. His preferred modus operandi is to stand there, arm
stretched out to the sides, and let us have it – and we take it pretty gladly...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/08/05/the-2015-bayreuth-festival-ring-das-rheingold/
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2015/08/Walkuere_Bayreuth_2015_Kampe_Youn_Botha_jens-f-laurson.jpg) (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/08/06/the-2015-bayreuth-festival-ring-die-walkure/)
2015 Bayreuth Festival, Walküre, Act I
courtesy Bayreuth Festival, © Enrico Nawrath
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ritter on August 07, 2015, 12:56:54 AM
Thanks for posting your wonderful reviews of the Petrenko / Castorf Ring, Jens. I saw the prioduction last year, and I think what you write perfectly describes what the audience feels in the Festspilehaus. Inconsistencies and all, I believe this is a theatrical and musical excperience of the highest order, and would venture to say it's bound to become a landmark as far as Wagner interpretation in the early 21st century is concerned.

I look forward to your reports on Siegfried and Götterdämmerung!  :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on August 07, 2015, 01:05:24 AM
Quote from: ritter on August 07, 2015, 12:56:54 AM
Thanks for posting your excellent reviews of the Petrenko / Castorf Ring, Jens. I saw the prioduction last year, and I think what you write perfectly describes what the audience feels in the Festspilehaus. Inconsistencies and all, I believe this is a theatrical and musical excperience of the highest order, and would venture to say it's bound to become a landmark as far as Wagner interpretation in the early 21st century is concerned.

I look forward to your reports on Siegfried and Götterdämmerung!  :)

I can see that, from you avatar. :-)

Thanks for the kind words.

Different people reacted differently, obviously... and my former boss at WETA whom I was with, for example, although agreeing on most everything with me with regards to details, liked Siegfried the best (partly because he was least distracted) whereas I liked Siegfried the least and Goetterdaemmerung the best.

Unfortunately, as I will report, this Ring will suffer a massive (29 roles!!!) cast change next year (and of course a new conductor, though I think Janowski might well do an excellent job) --- which must all but ruin Rheingold & Goetterdaemmerung. No continuity and only a couple rehearsals, as all the focus shifts to Parsifal.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ritter on August 07, 2015, 01:16:10 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on August 07, 2015, 01:05:24 AM
Unfortunately, as I will report, this Ring will suffer a massive (29 roles!!!) cast change next year (and of course a new conductor, though I think Janowski might well do an excellent job) --- which must all but ruin Rheingold & Goetterdaemmerung. No continuity and only a couple rehearsals, as all the focus shifts to Parsifal.
Yep, I read about those cast changes in the Festival's webpage....let's see how the new team does. I think the festival I really want to attend is that of 2017: this year's production of  Tristan, next year's new Parsifal and the 2017 première of Barrie Kosky's Meistersinger (plus what I presume would be the last run of the Castorf Ring).

Regards,

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on August 07, 2015, 01:20:38 AM
Quote from: ritter on August 07, 2015, 01:16:10 AM
Yep, I read about those cast changes in the Festival's webpage....let's see how the new team does. I think the festival I really want to attend is that of 2017: this year's production of  Tristan, next year's new Parsifal and the 2017 première of Barrie Kosky's Meistersinger (plus what I presume would be the last run of the Castorf Ring).

Regards,

Boy! That's the toughest year. The Ring & and the three 'big ones'. Phewww. A review of Tristan will also be forthcoming.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on August 09, 2015, 12:26:31 AM

Fresh from Forbes:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GS9pLMtbk04/VIB7VKbHqeI/AAAAAAAAHvs/QnxWx_SUGxc/s1600/Forbes_SOUND_ADVICE_laurson_2_600.jpg)

AUG 6, 2015
The 2015 Bayreuth Festival Ring: Siegfried

...Wolfgang Koch, who continues his smarmy, drunken, sleazy, seedy Wotan with most admirable gusto and believability, certainly shows that it's not for lack of will or skill on his part... seeing that he gets plenty to do in the third act, when he summons Erda. It's perhaps the most touching moment of this Siegfried, when the washed-up Wotan, ex-lover, gets together with Erda, his aged, long-time favorite ho, for a spaghetti dinner and too much wine, in a scene full of recriminations and regrets and make-up blow jobs. When Wotan-Wanderer is supposed to pay up (the waiter catching Erda in flagrante), he realizes he's just a bit short on cash and with the words "Dort seh' ich Siegfried nahn!" ("Woha, I think Siegfried approaches!") he's off, properly welshing and leaving Erda with the bill and the audiences in stiches. It's not the only moment that garnered laughter, but there could have still been more, seeing that Siegfried is supposed to be a comedy and that Castorf certainly has the irreverent streak that lends itself to comedy....

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/08/07/the-2015-bayreuth-festival-ring-siegfried/
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2015/08/Siegfried_Bayreuth_2015_Weissmann_Koch_jens-f-laurson.jpg) (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/08/07/the-2015-bayreuth-festival-ring-siegfried/)
2015 Bayreuth Festival, Siegfried, Act III
courtesy Bayreuth Festival, © Enrico Nawrath

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ritter on August 09, 2015, 03:55:27 AM
A wonderful conclusion to your review of the Bayreuth Ring, Jens! Yes, after the curtain came down on Götterdämmerung (last year for me) one had a sense of occasion, of having experineced 15 hours of something very special (not unlike what I felt in 1979 after the final curtain on another--now classic--groundbreaking production, the oulez/Chéreau centennial Ring).



Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on August 09, 2015, 04:27:10 AM
Poor Erda! Wotan is no gentleman...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on August 11, 2015, 02:13:05 AM

Fresh from Forbes:


(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GS9pLMtbk04/VIB7VKbHqeI/AAAAAAAAHvs/QnxWx_SUGxc/s1600/Forbes_SOUND_ADVICE_laurson_2_600.jpg)

AUG 6, 2015
The 2015 Bayreuth Festival Ring: Götterdämmerung

...After the excellently sung, superbly conducted, and rather warmly received Rhein-
gold, Walküre, and Siegfried, the last of the tetralogy's operas, Götterdämmerung,
felt like a triumph. Never mind the boos, when Castorf came out...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/08/08/the-2015-bayreuth-festival-ring-gotterdammerung/
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2015/08/Goetterdaemmerung_Bayreuth_2015_Milling_Buhrrmester_Oakes_Vinke_Act1_jens-f-laurson.jpg) (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/08/08/the-2015-bayreuth-festival-ring-gotterdammerung/)
2015 Bayreuth Festival, Siegfried, Act III
courtesy Bayreuth Festival, © Enrico Nawrath

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ritter on August 12, 2015, 01:05:26 AM
OpusArte is packaging all its DVDs of Bayreuth Festival productions in one single and affordable box:

(https://media2.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0809478011941.jpg)

The contents is (work, year, director, conductor):

Meistersinger (2008) - Katharina Wagner / Sebastian Weigle
Walküre (2008) - Tankred Dorst / Christian Thielemann
Holländer (2013) - Jan Phillip Gloger / Christian Thielemann
Lohengrin (2011) - Hans Neuenfels / Andris Nelsons
Tannhäuser (2014) - Sebastian Baumgartner / Axel Kober
Tristan (2009) - Christoph Marthaler / Peter Schneider
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on August 13, 2015, 09:04:26 AM
Quote from: ritter on August 12, 2015, 01:05:26 AM
OpusArte is packaging all its DVDs of Bayreuth Festival productions in one single and affordable box:

(https://media2.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0809478011941.jpg)

The contents is (work, year, director, conductor):

Meistersinger (2008) - Katharina Wagner / Sebastian Weigle | *** secretly ingenious... although Weigle isn't an absolutely TOP choice as a conductor. http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/02/holy-german-art-katharina-wagners.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/02/holy-german-art-katharina-wagners.html)

Walküre (2008) - Tankred Dorst / Christian Thielemann         | ???

Holländer (2013) - Jan Phillip Gloger / Christian Thielemann  | (*) + **** for the conducting http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/08/bayreuth-2012-dutchman-faltering.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/08/bayreuth-2012-dutchman-faltering.html)

Lohengrin (2011) - Hans Neuenfels / Andris Nelsons             | ****(*) one of the finer Lohengrins of our times... and one of Neuenfels' best productions. Blocking is ingenious, rats are super-cute... http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/08/bayreuth-2012-lohengrin-rats-tale-about.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/08/bayreuth-2012-lohengrin-rats-tale-about.html)

Tannhäuser (2014) - Sebastian Baumgartner / Axel Kober    | *** much better than reviewed and thought-of, this Tannhaeuser has real moments. Not sure about Kober's conducting, though; myself I heard it with CT http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/08/bayreuth-2012-tannhauser-is-gasser.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/08/bayreuth-2012-tannhauser-is-gasser.html)

Tristan (2009) - Christoph Marthaler / Peter Schneider          | (*) pretty bloody boring in every way. http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/08/bayreuth-2012-tristan-solid-stolid.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/08/bayreuth-2012-tristan-solid-stolid.html)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on August 22, 2015, 08:54:58 AM
Fresh from Forbes:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GS9pLMtbk04/VIB7VKbHqeI/AAAAAAAAHvs/QnxWx_SUGxc/s1600/Forbes_SOUND_ADVICE_laurson_2_600.jpg)

AUG 22, 2015
The 2015 Bayreuth Festival: Tristan & Isolde

...And then King Marke himself who entered, goodness gracious, all Colonel Mustard in a pimp-coat evidently tailored from the trombone-yellow carpet of Bayreuth's last Tristan production (Christoph Marthaler's, quite boring itself, but a thriller compared to this). I felt like playing a bored [sic] game: The mystery is solved! Melot! With the dagger! In the high-security bicycle shed! Nobody wins. Can we go home now?....

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/08/07/the-2015-bayreuth-festival-ring-siegfried/
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2015/08/Tristan_Bayreuth_2015_Act2_Herlitzius-Bicycle-Stand_jens-f-laurson.jpg) (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/08/22/the-2015-bayreuth-festival-tristan/)
2015 Bayreuth Festival, Tristan, Act II
courtesy Bayreuth Festival, © Enrico Nawrath

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ritter on August 22, 2015, 11:57:31 AM
Once again, thanks for the excellent review, Jens! I say it's refreshing to hear a dissenting voice concerning this Tristan, because in general te German press, as well as acquaintances of mine who attended a performance, raved about the musical aspects, and were relatively positive regarding the production.

GMG member LisztianWagner was set to attend this year's festival (for the first time, IIRC). I hope she shares her thoughts as well. (Ci sei, Ilaria?  ;) ).

As for me, I'll do my utmost to see this in 2017 (along with Parsifal, Meistersinger and--perhaps--the Castorf Ring for the second time).  :)

Regards,


Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 22, 2015, 07:40:35 AM
Quote from: ritter on August 22, 2015, 11:57:31 AM
GMG member LisztianWagner was set to attend this year's festival (for the first time, IIRC). I hope she shares her thoughts as well. (Ci sei, Ilaria?  ;) ).
I was very happy to have attended the Festspiele for Tristan und Isolde; it was the first time I went to Bayreuth and it was a wonderful experience, absolutely one of the greatest emotions of my life!
I was more overwhelmed by being at the sacred temple of the wagnerian art than by the performance of the opera, the staging was too modern and completely distorting Wagner's ideas about Tristan and the Gesamtkunstwerk for me, who I love more traditional productions. The first act took place in a large room full of stairs, Tristan and Isolde seemed openly fallen in love even before drinking the love potion, which was not drunk at all; in the second act, the lovers were locked, with Kurwenal and Brangane, in a sort of mad house with strange machines, Marke was not a noble king, heart-broken by Tristan's betrayal, but he had fun to spy Tristan und Isolde; the scene of Tristan's delirium, with Isolde continuing to appear in different parts of the stage in triangles of light, was an interesting idea; but in the finale, after the Liebestod, I excpected Isolde was transfigured and died, but it didn't happened. It was horrible to see the singer singing something and acting in a completely different way.
Musically anyway, Thielemann did an excellent job, he conducted a very powerful, passionate performance; the singer were all fine, but unfortunately Evelyn Herlitzius hasn't got the right voice for Isolde in my opinion, she was too sharp in the highest notes.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on September 22, 2015, 08:03:39 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on September 22, 2015, 07:40:35 AM
Tristan and Isolde seemed openly fallen in love even before drinking the love potion, which was not drunk at all;

I agree with the opinion that the love potion might as well have been just plain water: they already loved each other, despite the outward coldness: it is only when they both expect to die (thinking the drink was a death potion) that they decide "Oh what the hell, let's show our emotions, it's all the same now!"
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 22, 2015, 09:50:00 AM
Quote from: Alberich on September 22, 2015, 08:03:39 AM
I agree with the opinion that the love potion might as well have been just plain water: they already loved each other, despite the outward coldness: it is only when they both expect to die (thinking the drink was a death potion) that they decide "Oh what the hell, let's show our emotions, it's all the same now!"

It's a suggestive idea. Tristan and Isolde surely love each other before drinking the love potion, but they don't understand exactly what they feel, because Tristan is the perfect, loyal knight who doesn't want to betray his king, while a confused feeling of love and hate ties Isolde to Tristan (she fell in love with the knight Tantris, but then she discovered Tristan, who killed Morold, and Trantris are the same person); the love potion brings them the truth and they know one can't live without the other.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ritter on September 23, 2015, 11:48:59 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on September 22, 2015, 07:40:35 AM
I was very happy to have attended the Festspiele for Tristan und Isolde; it was the first time I went to Bayreuth and it was a wonderful experience, absolutely one of the greatest emotions of my life!
I was more overwhelmed by being at the sacred temple of the wagnerian art than by the performance of the opera, the staging was too modern and completely distorting Wagner's ideas about Tristan and the Gesamtkunstwerk for me, who I love more traditional productions. ...
Thanks fro sharing, Ilaria! Glad you enjoyed being in Bayreuth, even if the perfromance as such wasn't of your liking. As you know, I personally am sympathetic to productions that search to reinterpret Wagner's work, but won't comment on this specific one (which I've only seen on YouTube). But, vive la difference  ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on September 24, 2015, 02:56:01 AM
Quote from: ritter on September 23, 2015, 11:48:59 PM
Thanks fro sharing, Ilaria! Glad you enjoyed being in Bayreuth, even if the perfromance as such wasn't of your liking. As you know, I personally am sympathetic to productions that search to reinterpret Wagner's work, but won't comment on this specific one (which I've only seen on YouTube). But, vive la difference  ;)

Incidentally, I also thought this wasn't a good Tristan & Isolde[/b]... alas for very different reasons from Ilaria. She would have HATED that Ring.  :D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 24, 2015, 08:36:15 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 24, 2015, 02:56:01 AM
Incidentally, I also thought this wasn't a good Tristan & Isolde[/b]... alas for very different reasons from Ilaria. She would have HATED that Ring.  :D

Castorf's Ring? As a matter of fact, I'm not a fan of that production.....
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on October 19, 2015, 05:03:44 AM
Interesting upcoming exhibit in New York:

http://www.themorgan.org/exhibitions/wagners-ring
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ritter on October 22, 2015, 01:14:27 PM
Cross-posted from the "New Releases" thread:

Quote from: ritter on October 22, 2015, 07:48:02 AM
Apparently never before released, a must (I suppose) for admirers of Hans Knapperstbusch:

(http://www.orfeo-international.de/covers/21620g.jpg)
....
More information here: http://www.orfeo-international.de/pages/new_176_e.html
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on December 06, 2015, 03:23:27 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on March 12, 2008, 06:08:53 AM
Wagner fans I would like to ask you how many of you are consenting that this recording is the finest recording of Tristan und Isolde ever made??

Very old quote but personally I think Carlos Kleiber's recording of Tristan from 1982 is the best one I've ever heard.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on December 08, 2015, 08:26:33 AM
Quote from: Alberich on December 06, 2015, 03:23:27 AM
Very old quote but personally I think Carlos Kleiber's recording of Tristan from 1982 is the best one I've ever heard.

The Kleiber is incredible, such a powerful, passionate performance; I certainly agree that's one of the best recordings of Tristan, along with the Furtwängler and the Karajan.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Tsaraslondon on December 08, 2015, 08:32:38 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on December 08, 2015, 08:26:33 AM
The Kleiber is incredible, such a powerful, passionate performance; I certainly agree that's one of the best recordings of Tristan, along with the Furtwängler and the Karajan.

I've just discovered the Goodall,  which is oft forgotten. Much more naturally recorded than the Karajan, and Linda Esther Gray is superb. Goodall's tempos tend to be slow, admittedly, but the music never drags and there is no want of power. Try it.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on December 08, 2015, 08:41:39 AM
Quote from: Greg Mitchell on December 08, 2015, 08:32:38 AM
I've just discovered the Goodall,  which is oft forgotten. Much more naturally recorded than the Karajan, and Linda Esther Gray is superb. Goodall's tempos tend to be slow, admittedly, but the music never drags and there is no want of power. Try it.

Is it in English, like Goodall's Ring?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Tsaraslondon on December 08, 2015, 09:03:05 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on December 08, 2015, 08:41:39 AM
Is it in English, like Goodall's Ring?

No. It's in German.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Scion7 on May 17, 2016, 07:53:48 AM
Nice cover. Never heard it.  ç1975

(http://s32.postimg.org/oogdo0yfp/Wagner_LP.jpg)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on May 23, 2016, 06:51:04 AM
Listening to Böhm's Ring. While it's mostly a fine recording, I am disappointed by Gutrune's singer in Götterdämmerung. She sounds way too old and alto-ish rather than high soprano I've used to hearing.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on June 20, 2016, 08:58:33 AM
My new top 10:

1. Rheingold
2. Siegfried
3. Tristan und Isolde
4. Parsifal
5. Götterdämmerung
6. Walküre
7. Lohengrin
8. Meistersinger
9. Holländer
10. Tannhäuser

Weird to say "top 10" when that includes most of his important musical output. I have studied his other less well-known pieces too, though.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Mirror Image on June 20, 2016, 11:57:58 AM
Quote from: Alberich on June 20, 2016, 08:58:33 AM
My new top 10:

1. Rheingold
2. Siegfried
3. Tristan und Isolde
4. Parsifal
5. Götterdämmerung
6. Walküre
7. Lohengrin
8. Meistersinger
9. Holländer
10. Tannhäuser

Weird to say "top 10" when that includes most of his important musical output. I have studied his other less well-known pieces too, though.

I have a strong affinity for Das Rheingold, too. Possibly his greatest opera and there's some extraordinary music within it. Tristan und Isolde gets my vote for Wagner's second best opera.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on June 20, 2016, 01:28:56 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 20, 2016, 11:57:58 AM
I have a strong affinity for Das Rheingold, too. Possibly his greatest opera and there's some extraordinary music within it. Tristan und Isolde gets my vote for Wagner's second best opera.

There are elements in Wagner that might make operas other than Rheingold great, because they go further in exploring those (Wagnerian, typlical, or even extreme) elements. But as a 'conventional' opera, Rheingold is unquestionably Wagner's best and one of the best altogether. JUST as long as it needs to be (not very many operas can say that of themselves, assuming operas were to start to talk about themselves), gripping from A-Z and as you say with lots of great, memorable music. Especially love it in the Chereau production.
The Chéreau Ring Cycle - Das Rheingold - http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/09/chreau-ring-cycle-das-rheingold.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/09/chreau-ring-cycle-das-rheingold.html)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Mirror Image on June 20, 2016, 01:34:55 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 20, 2016, 01:28:56 PMThere are elements in Wagner that might make operas other than Rheingold great, because they go further in exploring those (Wagnerian, typlical, or even extreme) elements. But as a 'conventional' opera, Rheingold is unquestionably Wagner's best and one of the best altogether. JUST as long as it needs to be (not very many operas can say that of themselves, assuming operas were to start to talk about themselves), gripping from A-Z and as you say with lots of great, memorable music. Especially love it in the Chereau production.
The Chéreau Ring Cycle - Das Rheingold - http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/09/chreau-ring-cycle-das-rheingold.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/09/chreau-ring-cycle-das-rheingold.html)

Oh yes. There is great music to be found in all of Wagner's operas. Since operas like Götterdämmerung or Parsifal are so long, there's obviously a lot more room given to create a larger soundscape and incorporate more music into the whole opera. The Forest Murmurs section in Siegfried is one of my favorite moments in music.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: AndyD. on June 26, 2016, 10:10:57 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 20, 2016, 01:28:56 PM
There are elements in Wagner that might make operas other than Rheingold great, because they go further in exploring those (Wagnerian, typlical, or even extreme) elements. But as a 'conventional' opera, Rheingold is unquestionably Wagner's best and one of the best altogether. JUST as long as it needs to be (not very many operas can say that of themselves, assuming operas were to start to talk about themselves), gripping from A-Z and as you say with lots of great, memorable music. Especially love it in the Chereau production.
The Chéreau Ring Cycle - Das Rheingold - http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/09/chreau-ring-cycle-das-rheingold.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/09/chreau-ring-cycle-das-rheingold.html)

I adore the Chereux. I actually, really liked the Levine video as well, though the transfer is horrible.Interesting your preference for Das Rheingold; to me Gotterdammerung and Tristan und Isolde are his crowning achievements from all perspectives.

However, you'll not hear me impugning your love of Rheingold in the slightest, I'm a fellow fan :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on June 26, 2016, 11:30:14 PM
Quote from: AndyD. on June 26, 2016, 10:10:57 AM
I adore the Chereux. I actually, really liked the Levine video as well, though the transfer is horrible.Interesting your preference for Das Rheingold; to me Gotterdammerung and Tristan und Isolde are his crowning achievements from all perspectives.

However, you'll not hear me impugning your love of Rheingold in the slightest, I'm a fellow fan :)

Well, I think there are two (or a million) ways to look at these. Rheingold is, certainly among the Ring operas, the most conventional. It has the most straightforward plot... it is tight like only a few other operas and in that sense I'd say it's the best opera-opera of Wagner's. But Wagner strove for more, as we know... and that's what Wagnerians (rightly) love. And The best Wagner-opera Wagner wrote ... well, that's a different argument but Götterdämmerung, Tristan, and Parsifal would probably the three most likely candidates.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: AndyD. on June 27, 2016, 06:41:39 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 26, 2016, 11:30:14 PM
Well, I think there are two (or a million) ways to look at these. Rheingold is, certainly among the Ring operas, the most conventional. It has the most straightforward plot... it is tight like only a few other operas and in that sense I'd say it's the best opera-opera of Wagner's. But Wagner strove for more, as we know... and that's what Wagnerians (rightly) love. And The best Wagner-opera Wagner wrote ... well, that's a different argument but Götterdämmerung, Tristan, and Parsifal would probably the three most likely candidates.

I'm with you on all of this. I think Rheingold was the opera most close to the operas directly preceeding it, Lohengrin and Tannhauser. I love how the Ring features music from all stages of Wagner's compositional journey, though Parsifal I think took the more extreme end of things further than perhaps any. All are very much loved by me.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on August 26, 2016, 07:56:22 AM



Classical CD Of The Week: Bruckner Rising & Wagner Rarity

(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2016/08/Forbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_PROFIL-HAENSSLER_Wagner-Abendmahl_Bruckner-7_Thielemann_Dresden_Laurson_1200-1200x469.jpg)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/08/24/classical-cd-of-the-week-bruckner-rising-wagner-rarity/#178363f9c55f (http://bit.ly/CDoftheWeek026)


If I can coax someone into leaving a comment on any of the Forbes CD of the Week reviews, I've got a voucher for the Berlin Phil's Digital Concert Hall (alas valid for only 7 days from the first concert watched) to go their way.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on September 08, 2016, 11:18:58 PM
Box of Wagner Great Recordings 40 discs.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Richard-Wagner-Great-Recordings-Various/dp/B00A2JTEHY/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1473404118&sr=1-1&keywords=Wagner+great+recordings


I got this from Amazon for £16, although it has now suddenly increased by £10, it is still very inexpensive. It is a bit of an eccentric collection from the Sony, Eurodisc and RCA labels. All the expected works are there without the inclusion of a Tristan or Tannhauser. Certainly it is odd to make do just with excerpts of Tristan. The spine of the set is the first Janowski Ring which is very well sung and played. I have shunned him for over 40 years after being in choir for him singing the Verdi Four Sacred Pieces at a London prom. He drained all the drama out of them and he almost induced catelepsy. I am happy, though not thrilled, with his conducting here. They have included a fascinating live Karajan Parsifal, the sound is not great, but it is well worth hearing.

There is a whole bunch of excerpt discs covering Melchor to Waltraud Meier and orchestral excerpts from Maazel, Szell and Stokowski. This last disc on its own makes my outlay worthwhile. It is stupendous. He induces shivers through his thrilling music making. Difficult to analyse how he does it. The end of Rheingold is really epic and slow, but is never in danger of stalling. I recently heard Gergiev live and he bled the drama out of that part of the opera by dragging the last half hour almost to a halt. Stoky really was a magician.

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ritter on September 16, 2016, 01:33:17 PM
I answer here to Jens's post in the "Recordings you are considering" thread, as it seems more approriate:

Quote from: jlaurson on September 16, 2016, 12:50:01 PM
What a magic night, huh? Which week were you? I was week 5. Never saw so many grown man cry as after act 1.
Had also been on the last night of 2008, where W.Wagner was wheeled onto stage one last time to wave goodbye.
Shortly thereafter he was no more. But I preferred Jordan's conducting over Luisi, to the extent those two events can be compared. (I was familiar with the acoustic in 2012, but had never been before 2008. Plus the four years difference... Still, in 2012 I was very impressed.)
Magic, pure magic!!!!

I attended the performance of week 1 (July 29th). It was my second time at the festival. I had been there many, many years earlier as a teenager (1979), seeing the Boulez/Chéreau Ring, Lohengrin staged by Götz Friedrich (Edo de Waart conducting), the Harry Kupfer Dutchman (under Dennis Russell Davies) and the--first--Wolfgang Wagner staging of Parsifal (Horst Stein leading).

I actually showed up at the theatre without a ticket about half an hour before the box office opened (as I had business in Nuremberg the next day), and got one of three returns they could offer  :) :) :) I was a very happy man!

Stefan Herheim's Parsifal is one of the most impressive things I've ever seen in a theatre. So many allusions, so many thought-provoking ideas, and such sheer beauty on stage! Philippe Jordan gave an excellent rendition of the score (although I do recall a short moment of lack of coordination between the pit and the stage in the flowermaiden scene--but it was his debut on the Green Hill); transparent textures, good dramatic thrust, and no plodding (even if the tempi were not brisk). The singing was variable, but never poor, and I liked Detlef Roth's lyrical Amfortas and, particularly, Kwangchul Youn's superb Gurnemanz.

The "eerie" moment I referred to in my post you replied to was this: if you've seen the Hans-Jürgen Syberberg film (if you haven't, I strongly recommend it), you might recall that during the Good Friday scene, Syberberg superimposes the image of Armin Jordan conducting to the sets of the film (which were, essentially, a giant replica of Wagner's death mask). Well it was at almost the same point in the score when Herheim descended the giant mirror on the stage, permitting the audience to see itself (wasn't that breathtaking!!??) and also the pit and the conductor--the latter always hidden from the audience's view in Bayreuth. I found it a rather beautiful coincidence that you get to see father and son conducting the same moment in the score in these two different productions, so many years apart. And coincidence it must have been, because Philippe Jordan only took the baton for the staging's fifth and final run (Daniele Gatti was the original conductor). Jordan is back next year for Meistersinger (I've ordered tickets, lets see if I get them)...

Regards,
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: jlaurson on September 16, 2016, 01:42:26 PM
Quote from: ritter on September 16, 2016, 01:33:17 PM
I answer to Jens post in the "Recordings you are considering" thread, as it seems more approriate:
Magic, pure magic!!!!

I attended the performance of week 1 (July 29th). It was my second time at the festival. I had been there many, many years earlier as a teenager (1979), seeing the Boulez/Chéreau Ring, Lohengrin staged by Götz Friedrich (Edo de Waart conducting), the Harry Kupfer Dutchman (under Dennis Russell Davies) and the--first--Wolfgang Wagner staging of Parsifal (Horst Stein leading).

I actually showed up at the theatre without a ticket about half an hour before the box office opened (as I had business in Nuremberg the next day), and got one of three returns they could offer  :) :) :) I was a very happy man!

Stefan Herheim's Parsifal is one of the most impressive things I've ever seen in a theatre. So many allusions, so many thought-provoking ideas, and such sheer beauty on stage! Philippe Jordan gave an excellent rendition of the score (although I do recall a short moment of lack of coordination between the pit and the stage in the flowermaiden scene--but it was his debut on the Green Hill); transparent textures, good dramatic thrust, and no plodding (even if the tempi were not brisk). The singing was variable, but never poor, and I liked Detlef Roth's lyrical Amfortas and, particularly, Kwangchul Youn's superb Gurnemanz.

The "eerie" moment I referred to in my post you replied to was this: if you've seen the Hans-Jürgen Syberberg film (if you haven't, I strongly recommend it), you might recall that during the Good Friday scene, Syberberg superimposes the image of Armin Jordan conducting to the sets of the film (which were, essentially, a giant replica of Wagner's death mask). Well it was at almost the same point in the score when Herheim descended the giant mirror on the stage, permitting the audience to see itself (wasn't that breathtaking!!??) and also the pit and the conductor--the latter always hidden from the audience's view in Bayreuth. I found it a rather beautiful coincidence hat you get to see father and son conducting the same moment in the score in these two different productions, so many years apart. And coincidece it must have been, because Philippe Jordan only took the baton for the staging's fifth and final run (Daniele Gatti was the original conductor). Jordan is back next year for Meistersinger (I've ordered tickets, lets see if I get them)...

Regards,

Of course: Gatti, not Luisi! And yes, that mirror moment... that idea of: "The Future is YOU!", the passing on of the duty not to make the same mistakes by literally holding a mirror up to the audience... it was, and will likely remain, the greatest time I've had at an opera. Poor sod Herheim, though... he has to live up to this with every production -- and obviously can't. (Though I do think he's wonderful and I try to catch his productions whenever I can.) I've sadly not yet seen the Syderberg film in full, but will hope to do that before long. Also: Same story with me in 2008. Didn't have a ticket; my former teacher and I just went up on a whim, from Munich, no less... and we both got in, just actually being given tickets.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 21, 2016, 11:24:48 AM
Latest on Forbes:


Die Meistersinger With Kirill Petrenko From Munich
Or: Why did Herr B. Run Amok?
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2016/10/Die-Meistersinger-von-Nuernberg__Bruns_Sachsens-Citroen_Munich-State-Opera_cWilfried-Hoesl-1200x750.jpg?width=960)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/10/21/die-meistersinger-with-kirill-petrenko-from-munich/#60d00f883666 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/10/21/die-meistersinger-with-kirill-petrenko-from-munich/#60d00f883666)

Quote...If David Bösch's direction was short on story, whether imposing or revealing, it succeeded in its chatty ways
and bleak-to-lively-in-10-seconds sets by Patrick Bannwart. The curtain opens to a naked black stage, scaffolding,
and archival ring binders...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ritter on October 21, 2016, 01:08:04 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on October 21, 2016, 11:24:48 AM
Latest on Forbes:


Die Meistersinger With Kirill Petrenko From Munich
Or: Why did Herr B. Run Amok?
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2016/10/Die-Meistersinger-von-Nuernberg__Bruns_Sachsens-Citroen_Munich-State-Opera_cWilfried-Hoesl-1200x750.jpg?width=960)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/10/21/die-meistersinger-with-kirill-petrenko-from-munich/#60d00f883666 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/10/21/die-meistersinger-with-kirill-petrenko-from-munich/#60d00f883666)
Great review, Jens (as usual). Thanks for posting! (You might want to check the beginning of the second paragraph, though: either it's a construction that I as a non-native English speaker cannot grasp, or there's some mstake),

I still am rather upset about these Meistersinger!of  I landed in Munich on the evening Monday October 3rd (for a 3-night business trip), and hadn't checked beforehand that there was a perfomance that same afternoon starting at 4:00 pm (it being a holiday in Germany). Had I booked an earlier flight, I could have attended. You really don't get to see Meistersinger conducted by someone like Petrenko every day, do you?  Stupid, stupid me!!!! :( >:( :( >:(

IIRC, the Walter on that day was K.-F. Vogt.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 21, 2016, 01:17:17 PM
Quote from: ritter on October 21, 2016, 01:08:04 PM
Great review, Jens (as usual). Thanks for posting! (You might want to check the beginning of the second paragraph, though: either it's a construction that I as a non-native English speaker cannot grasp, or there's some mstake),

I still am rather upset about these Meistersinger!of  I landed in Munich on the evening Monday October 3rd (for a 3-night business trip), and hadn't checked beforehand that there was a perfomance that same afternoon starting at 4:00 pm (it being a holiday in Germany). Had I booked an earlier flight, I could have attended. You really don't get to see Meistersinger conducted by someone like Petrenko every day, do you?  Stupid, stupid me!!!! :( >:( :( >:(

IIRC, the Walter on that day was K.-F. Vogt.

Thanks much for the correction; a cut-n-paste deletion of the word "hand" seems to has caused the trouble. Fixed now, I hope. What a bummer about missing these Meistersingers; K.F.Vogt would have been very interesting in them... but I think he canceled that performance, too, didn't he?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ritter on October 21, 2016, 01:45:05 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on October 21, 2016, 01:17:17 PM
Fixed now, I hope.
I think you still need a "need" in that sentence.  ;)

Quote...but I think he canceled that performance, too, didn't he?
I wouldn't know. I saw his name on the theatre's webpage the morning of the performance...and never looked back ! :( Bummer indeed....
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 22, 2016, 02:39:33 AM
Quote from: ritter on October 21, 2016, 01:45:05 PM
I think you still need a "need" in that sentence.  ;)


Argh! How do entire words just disappear?!?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 24, 2016, 05:05:32 AM
Your Top 5 Parsifal Recordings

See also the poll (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,26431.msg1020294.html#msg1020294)...

Inspired by the WAYLT thread:

Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 24, 2016, 04:01:00 AM
What 5 would you choose ahead of it?

I was just waiting for that question.  :D


1.) Kubelik
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00009LW4Y.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00009LW4Y/nectarandambr-20)

2.) Boulez
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51uPspgw0QL.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000009JNI/nectarandambr-20)

3.) Barenboim
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B01CH5F6T0.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B01CH5F6T0/nectarandambr-20)

4.) Knappertsbusch '62
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000FVHGZG.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FVHGZG/nectarandambr-20)

5.) Kegel
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51QVxMFYyzL.jpg) (http://amzn.to/2gkFURp)

Also contenders to land ahead of Karajan (although the latter is stronger in certain aspects of the work than each of these):

Thielemann (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/05/domingo-notwithstanding-this-is.html), Goodall (http://amzn.to/2fb5ske), Jaap van Zweden (http://amzn.to/2fuS6xv). Almost Levine/Bayreuth (http://amzn.to/2gkJgDI).

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on December 06, 2016, 08:08:45 AM
My opinions about my first live Holländer... well, they're a bit mixed. While I'm often more comfortable with traditional setting (which you rarely ever see anymore with Wagner operas) I am open to any interpretation provided they are good ones. Mostly this was a great one, although I initially resisted the idea of framing Holländer as a modern artist, with no sea or ships anywhere except in the text and evoked in the score and gestures. The sea of this production was artist's (Holländer's) inner psyche. The instant I actually started to watch it, I was hooked. Except for one problem, which is a relatively major one. And that is the way the ending was interpreted. Holländer shoots himself, effective enough but after last words of Senta there is a remarkably awkward transition to one year in the future with Senta carrying on Holländer's artistic legacy. I get that it was meant to portray Senta as more than a remarkably sexist caricature of a self-sacrificing woman found in most of Wagner's earlier operas. I still think it was awkward and somewhat unsatisfying. And even in traditional interpretation of Senta she can be and has been played interestingly, for example as a case of interesting obsession-ridden girl whose obsession takes unhealthy turns and rejects Erik, relationship which could have been better suited to her and wouldn't have ended in her death. With orchestral playing and music of the production there of course was nothing wrong.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: knight66 on December 06, 2016, 08:23:25 AM
The last time I saw Dutchman, Senta did not commit suicide. So, that demolished one of the main pillars that Wagner obsessed over, redemption through sacrifice, there was no sacrifice.

In the one prior to that, the sailors had themselves a jolly bukkake session!

Mike
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ritter on December 11, 2016, 11:59:43 AM
Just finished reading this book, to which SurprisedByBeauty alerted us:

(https://pmcdn.priceminister.com/photo/1072014164.jpg)

It is a very entertaining book, shedding light on Wieland Wagner's approach to the works of his grandfather and of others (Carmen, Aïda, Wozzeck..). Some wonderful insights are gained on some of the works, although sometimes Antoine Goléa tries to impose his own (often far-fetched) interprations of some pieces. Before anyone asks, no, none of the shadier aspects of Wieland's biography are even hinted at (as nobody would expect, given the nature of the book and the time the interviews took place--June 1966, just 3 months before Wieland's sadly premature death).

And yes, my copy has a stamp saying "Bibliothek Winifred Wagner"  8)

P.S.: Lohengrin at the Deutsche Oper last Sunday was just "OK", not really memorable. Peter Seiffert was uneven at the beginning, but displayed all his (long) experience in the rôle (he's 62) in a rather extraordinary Graalserzählung at the end. He seemed not to know the production too well, and had trouble moving around the stage. Annette Dasch was a touching Elsa, with some minor intonation issues in the high register at times (and an unexpected moment of hilarity happened when she fell off the bed in the Act 3 duet with Lohengrin). Wolfgang Koch an imposing if rather rough (as usual with this singer) Telramund, and Elisabete Matos was effective as Ortrud (although she was the only one who received some scattered boos in the final curtain calls). Günther Groissböck filled in at the last minute as Henry the Fowler, and was superb (as was Derek Welton--a member of the house ensemble--as the Herald).

Axel Kober didn't manage IMHO to capture the ethereal, iridiscent sound the prelude requires, but then went on to conduct a very sensitive performance, with excellent balance between pit and stage, and good dramatic thrust (while not ingoring the details of Wagner's scoring). The effect created by placing the trumpets of the introduction to scene 3 of the last act all around the theatre was very nice.

Kasper Holten's production really didn't have any very distinctive features, appeared strangely incoherent (while remaing for the most faithful to the libretto, except for a predictable twist at the end--Gottfired is returned to Brabant as a corpse), and the sets appeared simply cheap.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: relm1 on March 25, 2017, 04:06:18 PM
Some have said "you cannot underestimate the influence of Wagner on classical music."  What is his influence?  Obviously I know Bruckner and Mahler were very impacted.  But at a more nuanced level what resulted from the influence of Wagner?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Mahlerian on March 25, 2017, 04:24:46 PM
Quote from: relm1 on March 25, 2017, 04:06:18 PM
Some have said "you cannot underestimate the influence of Wagner on classical music."  What is his influence?  Obviously I know Bruckner and Mahler were very impacted.  But at a more nuanced level what resulted from the influence of Wagner?

A freer application of dissonances, a reduced reliance on the anchor of key as a structuring element, and the use of motifs as unities in themselves which can operate independently of the accompanying harmony and even contradict its implications.  His orchestra was also larger and frequently employed unusual timbres and combinations thereof.

In the realm of opera more specifically, Wagner continued the trend away from number opera with its distinction between recitative and aria.  The accompanying music was pushed further towards a reflection of the drama onstage.

In all of these things he had predecessors, especially Berlioz and Liszt, but Wagner was the one who became the figurehead for "progressive" music in the mid-19th century.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: relm1 on March 25, 2017, 05:08:07 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on March 25, 2017, 04:24:46 PM
A freer application of dissonances, a reduced reliance on the anchor of key as a structuring element, and the use of motifs as unities in themselves which can operate independently of the accompanying harmony and even contradict its implications.  His orchestra was also larger and frequently employed unusual timbres and combinations thereof.

In the realm of opera more specifically, Wagner continued the trend away from number opera with its distinction between recitative and aria.  The accompanying music was pushed further towards a reflection of the drama onstage.

In all of these things he had predecessors, especially Berlioz and Liszt, but Wagner was the one who became the figurehead for "progressive" music in the mid-19th century.
Much thanks Mahlerian. 
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 26, 2017, 09:23:21 AM
Quote from: relm1 on March 25, 2017, 05:08:07 PM
Much thanks Mahlerian.

The simplified version, more or less repeating what Mahlerian said in so many words, is: After the Tristan-chord, tonality was never the same again; it was stretched to the max... there was a little bit to be had by condensing & tightening or by making the canvas still larger, but it's argued that it led almost necessarily to Schoenberg trying to smash the cork out of the bottle of tonality.

And opera was never the same again; it was now, more often than not, composed-through (starting with Verdi, who was one of the first to take the cue (i.e. Falstaff)). And the total connection of drama and music; the even greater insistence on the word as equal part in opera and the music employed as a means to express it and yet have the music act as an independent vehicle of expression... the expression of psychology through music, for example... that was pretty much all Wagner and there couldn't have been a Pelleas & Melisande or anything by Strauss or Britten or Janacek had it not been for Wagner to complete revolutionize the way opera worked.

Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on April 23, 2017, 06:29:55 AM
Does anyone have a clue about why Ludwig Suthaus in Furtwangler's Siegfried recording from 1953 repeatedly pronounces Mime's name as "Mimme"?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 17, 2017, 05:26:20 AM
Quote from: Alberich on April 23, 2017, 06:29:55 AM
Does anyone have a clue about why Ludwig Suthaus in Furtwangler's Siegfried recording from 1953 repeatedly pronounces Mime's name as "Mimme"?
He probably thought he was singing La Boheme.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 17, 2017, 05:31:02 AM
Does anyone know whether according to this:

(http://www.bayreuther-festspiele.de/files/pdf/sitzplan_preise_2017.pdf)

The price is for Tristan, Parsifal and Ring COMBINED? In which case it sounds absurdly cheap.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on May 17, 2017, 05:35:08 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 17, 2017, 05:31:02 AM
Does anyone know whether according to this:

(//)

The price is for Tristan, Parsifal and Ring COMBINED? In which case it sounds absurdly cheap.

No, I'm afraid that's not what it means. This means that for each individual opera, those are the prices... whereas for the new production (Meistersinger), the prices are different.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on May 17, 2017, 05:35:46 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on May 17, 2017, 05:35:08 AM
No, I'm afraid that's not what it means. This means that for each individual opera, those are the prices... whereas for the new production (Meistersinger), the prices are different.

But mind you that some of the cheapest seats in the house (in fact most of them!) are still anywhere between good and more-than-tolerable seats.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 17, 2017, 06:17:48 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on May 17, 2017, 05:35:08 AM
No, I'm afraid that's not what it means. This means that for each individual opera, those are the prices... whereas for the new production (Meistersinger), the prices are different.
For Ring is that the price PER opera? i remember paying $250 for EACH opera at the MET...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on May 17, 2017, 08:50:33 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 17, 2017, 06:17:48 AM
For Ring is that the price PER opera? i remember paying $250 for EACH opera at the MET...

Yes. True, It's not made super-explicit but it must be assumed.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on June 22, 2017, 10:43:19 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 22, 2017, 09:44:47 AM
Wagner is both underrated and overrated.  He's been hyped for the wrong things and passed over for some of the important things he achieved.  He has a big reputation but reputation is for the wrong things.

Quote from: Jo498 on June 22, 2017, 10:12:23 AM
Jeffrey put it well; I'd add that many are repulsed by the antics of rabid Wagnerians and all the other stuff surrounding Wagner and his "tradition" (Winifred, Hitler, whatnot) but all this has very little to do with the music. People who are put off by Wagnerianism tend to underrate the composer, I guess.

But I think that by many musicians, dramatists, composers and a few other artists (like Thomas Mann who was totally nuts about Wagner) Wagner is often highly rated and properly revered for really stunning achievements. Although even among such elite connoisseurs the hype might have been a little over the top ca. 1875-1915.


(I felt I shouldn't prolong the digression in yonder thread, so I take this parenthesis here.)

There really are rabid Wagnerrhoids in our day, but none (I don't think) among our fine GMG band. I'm not going to put this as any fault on Wagner's part, but as two minds not quite meeting.  (And I am open to the possibility that I might be writing to very different purpose today, if when I was at Buffalo, for instance, I had taken Jeremy Noble's class on Tristan.)  Although I have not repeated the experience, I remember entirely enjoying my first listen to the whole of Parsifal – but, I divided it over three days, I think.

It is not exactly that Wagner runs too long – it may be just right – nor is it exactly that I am impatient (I am perfectly happy listening to a Bruckner symphony all through). It is:

At some point that is apt to change, and it is in earnest that I report that I do look forward to a second go at Parsifal, and contemplate with genuine interest attending to the Ring properly, at last.

But at the moment, I am about other things musically.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on June 22, 2017, 11:19:30 AM
The sheer time involved with Wagner operas can be a hindrance.   To listen to almost any of the later operas,  requires a several hour stretch if one doesn't listen to it one act at a time.  Whereas, for instance,  Otello, Falstaff,  La Boheme, Tosca and many others need only a two hour span.

That said, long playing time is not limited to Wagner.  Verdi passed the three hour limit in more than one of his operas (albeit often because of add-ons:  Vespri Siciliani contains a half hour long ballet, for instance), and Mozart  wrote several operas that pass, or at least come close to, the three hour limit (Cosi fan tutte, for instance) and Lucio Silla is about three and a half hours long, only slightly less than Walkure.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jo498 on June 22, 2017, 11:46:22 AM
I also rarely listen to Wagner these days, partly because of the length. But when I did, I often did it in ca. one hour/one act/on disc per evening.
Because I am/was poor and lazy (Wagner usually requires some travelling, unless one lives close to a large opera house, even in Germany where Mozart operas are done in smallish town theatres) I only saw two Wagner operas on stage. Siegfried and Parsifal. In both cases I was positively surprised because I had expected it to be something of a chore to sit through these long pieces but it really was not. O.k., maybe a little ;)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ritter on July 14, 2017, 03:39:21 AM
Cross-posted from the "New Releases" thread:

Quote from: ritter on July 14, 2017, 03:37:55 AM
Orfeo will be releasing the 1959 Bayreuth Der fliegende Holländer in August. The cast includes Josef Greindl, Leonie Rysanek, George London, Fritz Uhl and Res Fischer, under Wolfgang Sawallisch. I suppose it is the same performance that appeared on the bootleg Golden Melodram label years ago, but would presume the sound will be vastly better this time around.

I believe this was the first year of Wieland Wagner's production that used the 3-act version with pauses between the acts, and that was later recorded (in 1961) by Phlips with Franz Crass and Anja Silja (a recording that is included in the big Decca Bayreuth box). London and Rysanek, of course, recorded their roles in the studio under Antál Doráti for Decca.

No cover yet, I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: bhodges on November 14, 2017, 07:26:48 AM
Last night, a most interesting talk by Mark Berry, a Wagner scholar, on the Ring Cycle directed by Frank Castorf, which appeared for the 4th time (?) at Bayreuth this year. If there is any justice, this production by Serbian designer Aleksandar Denić will make it to DVD. The excerpts were pretty extraordinary, both vocally and scenically.

Check out the photos on the designer's website. The sample below is from Das Rheingold.

http://aleksandardenic.com/theatre.html

--Bruce
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Karl Henning on November 14, 2017, 08:25:56 AM
I had a burger there once.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 14, 2017, 09:22:56 AM
Quote from: Brewski on November 14, 2017, 07:26:48 AM
Check out the photos on the designer's website. The sample below is from Das Rheingold.

The gods are residing in a cheap motel?  :laugh:  Okay, I suppose that makes sense. They can't really afford the price of Valhalla so better temporary accommodations are out of the question ;D

Seriously, it is an impressive set. Unfortunately, I was only able to see about half the photos. There's a bug somewhere; I kept being recycled to an earlier image rather than completing the slideshow.

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 14, 2017, 11:08:44 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 14, 2017, 09:22:56 AM
The gods are residing in a cheap motel?  :laugh:  Okay, I suppose that makes sense. They can't really afford the price of Valhalla so better temporary accommodations are out of the question ;D

Seriously, it is an impressive set. Unfortunately, I was only able to see about half the photos. There's a bug somewhere; I kept being recycled to an earlier image rather than completing the slideshow.

Sarge

The Rheingold is a Route 69 meets The Sopranos kind of affair. First year I saw it, I was baffled and confused and annoyed. When I saw the whole thing, I was amazed in the end. Wrote about it rather extensively here (incl. pix):

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/08/05/the-2015-bayreuth-festival-ring-das-rheingold/#6a1426ad12c8 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/08/05/the-2015-bayreuth-festival-ring-das-rheingold/#6a1426ad12c8)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/08/06/the-2015-bayreuth-festival-ring-die-walkure/#4854f8db440c (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/08/06/the-2015-bayreuth-festival-ring-die-walkure/#4854f8db440c)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/08/07/the-2015-bayreuth-festival-ring-siegfried/#2eb48a985360 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/08/07/the-2015-bayreuth-festival-ring-siegfried/#2eb48a985360)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/08/08/the-2015-bayreuth-festival-ring-gotterdammerung/#535492501d25 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/08/08/the-2015-bayreuth-festival-ring-gotterdammerung/#535492501d25)
(plus Tristan (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/08/22/the-2015-bayreuth-festival-tristan/#6255dbaf2e62))
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ritter on November 14, 2017, 11:26:37 PM
Quote from: Brewski on November 14, 2017, 07:26:48 AM
Last night, a most interesting talk by Mark Berry, a Wagner scholar, on the Ring Cycle directed by Frank Castorf, which appeared for the 4th time (?) at Bayreuth this year. If there is any justice, this production by Serbian designer Aleksandar Denić will make it to DVD. The excerpts were pretty extraordinary, both vocally and scenically.

Check out the photos on the designer's website. The sample below is from Das Rheingold.

http://aleksandardenic.com/theatre.html

--Bruce
The production was given from 2013 to 2017, the usual 5-year run accorded to Bayreuth productions over the past several decades. Next year, there'll be 3 performances of Die Walküre (the weakest link of the production IMHO) in isolation, conducted by Plácido Domingo. I fail to get the point of this break away from festival tradition. 

I (with my two children)  saw this whole Ring live in Bayreuth in 2014--conducted by Kirill Petrenko--, and was bowled over. Yes, it is sometimes chaotic, it is sometimes confusing, but the strength of Frank Castorf's theatrical language and the imposing (and at times intensely beautiful) sets by Aleksandar Denić made for a thrilling experience in the theatre, and shed some wonderful fresh insights on the work.

IIRC, Mark Berry (whose "boulezian" blog I follow with interest) was horrified when he first saw the production, and then on the following year it "clicked" for him and he raved about it. I can understand this happening, since the approach is so revolutionary it can shock at first sight. But, it is executed with supreme technical expertise, and many (but certainly not all) of the ideas it develops are most interesting.

I think it has the capacity to become a "classic". A video recording of it (under the baton of Marek Janowski) must exist, as it was broadcast live on (IIRC) Sky TV in 2016, but I have read nothing of a release on DVD. It would be criminal not to do so, but the Festival apparently has already vetoed the release of another of its best productions ever, Stefan Herheim's Parsifal, so one never knows...
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 15, 2017, 01:03:23 AM
Quote from: ritter on November 14, 2017, 11:26:37 PM
The production was given from 2013 to 2017, the usual 5-year run accorded to Bayreuth productions over the past several decades. Next year, there'll be 3 performances of Die Walküre (the weakest link of the production IMHO) in isolation, conducted by Plácido Domingo. I fail to get the point of this break away from festival tradition. 

Unfathomable, really. As you say, it's the weak link (incredibly conventional, after that Rheingold) of the production. And Domingo, the  Harvey Weinstein of classical music, is an inept conductor... The very thought of hearing his Walkuere after Petrenko's or even Janowski's... Yikes!

QuoteI (with my two children)  saw this whole Ring live in Bayreuth in 2014--conducted by Kirill Petrenko--, and was bowled over. Yes, it is sometimes chaotic, it is sometimes confusing, but the strength of Frank Castorf's theatrical language and the imposing (and at times intensely beautiful) sets by Aleksandar Denić made for a thrilling experience in the theatre, and shed some wonderful fresh insights on the work.

Neat. I know I felt a strange sense of accomplishment after the Goetterdaemmerung. In 2014 and 2015, the production was at its peak. In 2016, they had a totally new cast, except for a few peeps, and Castorf and his team were not thrilled about that, obviously. I hope that there's a tape of either of those years. You must have had two crocodiles at the Alexanderplatz, correct? I had three; they multiply and every year it's one more. :-)

QuoteIIRC, Mark Berry (whose "boulezian" blog I follow with interest) was horrified when he first saw the production, and then on the following year it "clicked" for him and he raved about it. I can understand this happening, since the approach is so revolutionary it can shock at first sight. But, it is executed with supreme technical expertise, and many (but certainly not all) of the ideas it develops are most interesting.

"Wagner scholar" is going perhaps a bit far... but he does write a lot about music and he certainly is opinionated. And of course explicitly political in the most predictable of ways, for a modern day classical music writer. Appreciate his writings on music most of the time, but very tedious when he mixes the two.

QuoteI think it has the capacity to become a "classic". A video recording of it (under the baton of Marek Janowski) must exist, as it was broadcast live on (IIRC) Sky TV in 2016, but I have read nothing of a release on DVD. It would be criminal not to do so, but the Festival apparently has already vetoed the release of another of its best productions ever, Stefan Herheim's Parsifal, so one never knows...

The Sisters -- Katharina esp., since Eva's been booted -- didn't like the Herheim production. Which is insane, because I think there's across-the-board agreement among opera lovers and Wagnerians in particular, that it is one of the best productions of any opera ever. And by ever, I'm limiting myself to the recorded age, of course. It's simply the best, most intelligent, most elaborate, most moving thing I ever saw and I never expect to see anything better. And I've seen some terrific stuff in my time.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ritter on November 15, 2017, 02:17:26 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 15, 2017, 01:03:23 AM
...
You must have had two crocodiles at the Alexanderplatz, correct? I had three; they multiply and every year it's one more. :-)
Yes, two crocodiles it was... What a scene! And Siegfried cavorting with the woodbird and ignoring Brünnhilde in the final duet... hilarious and, at the same time, food for thought...
Quote
"Wagner scholar" is going perhaps a bit far... but he does write a lot about music and he certainly is opinionated. And of course explicitly political in the most predictable of ways, for a modern day classical music writer. Appreciate his writings on music most of the time, but very tedious when he mixes the two.
He has written a couple of books that look interesting (but are very expensive). But yes, he does ramble about politics sometimes. Still, I share many views and tastes with him (chief among them, of course, our mutual admiration for the work of Pierre Boulez). In any case (just to make sure), my comments were about Castorf's Ring, not Mr. Berry's blog.  ;)

QuoteThe Sisters -- Katharina esp., since Eva's been booted -- didn't like the Herheim production. Which is insane, because I think there's across-the-board agreement among opera lovers and Wagnerians in particular, that it is one of the best productions of any opera ever. And by ever, I'm limiting myself to the recorded age, of course. It's simply the best, most intelligent, most elaborate, most moving thing I ever saw and I never expect to see anything better. And I've seen some terrific stuff in my time.
A big +1 to this (as you and I have discussed in the past). That mirror, oh, that mirror!  :)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 15, 2017, 12:09:44 PM
Quote from: ritter on November 15, 2017, 02:17:26 AM
Yes, two crocodiles it was... What a scene! And Siegfried cavorting with the woodbird and ignoring Brünnhilde in the final duet... hilarious and, at the same time, food for thought...

Yes. Siegfried QUITE uncomfortable with that date; doesn't really know what he's supposed to do. Instead of a romantic highlight, in comes the silly. Quite good - and quite fitting to the music, really.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 15, 2017, 12:37:56 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 14, 2017, 11:08:44 AMWrote about it rather extensively here (incl. pix)

Thanks, Jens.

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on November 15, 2017, 02:26:36 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 15, 2017, 12:09:44 PM
Yes. Siegfried QUITE uncomfortable with that date; doesn't really know what he's supposed to do. Instead of a romantic highlight, in comes the silly. Quite good - and quite fitting to the music, really.

It really seems like a sensible choice then. Siegfried is one of the biggest idiots in any opera, and without question the most naïve...........
But also he has no knowledge of how to be 'romantic' or what it is to fall in love (mistaking it for fear, which he also does not know)....and his lack of interest in Brünnhilde is pretty much the entire plot of Götterdämmerung, so I guess that makes sense too.

I have always wondered how on earth anyone could save the utter nonsense of the ending of Siegfried, so I am ever more curious to see what this production did.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: kishnevi on November 15, 2017, 06:08:12 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 15, 2017, 01:03:23 AM
Unfathomable, really. As you say, it's the weak link (incredibly conventional, after that Rheingold) of the production. And Domingo, the  Harvey Weinstein of classical music, is an inept conductor... The very thought of hearing his Walkuere after Petrenko's or even Janowski's... Yikes!


I've never heard Domingo as conductor...but it might be interesting to hear Walkure under the baton of someone who has had the experience of singing it.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 15, 2017, 09:38:38 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 15, 2017, 06:08:12 PM
I've never heard Domingo as conductor...but it might be interesting to hear Walkure under the baton of someone who has had the experience of singing it.

If you have a pretty liberal definition of what "interesting" means, perhaps. Having suffered through a good bit of Domingo-conducting myself, I can safely state that my curiosity has been sated.  ;)

Used to get into minor trouble in DC with WETA 90.9-listeners when I would recommend opera dates on their blog specifically for when he wasn't conducting. Because people travelled to hear Domingo in any capacity, of course.

Apropos morninglistening:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DOszd9lX0AAE3vp.jpg)

#morninglistening to #RichardWagner @WagnerFestival w/#KarlBöhm:

http://a-fwd.to/30sth7Y  on @DGclassics

#trista... http://ift.tt/2zGSfZA  (http://a-fwd.to/30sth7Y)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Moonfish on May 22, 2018, 10:49:25 AM
So quiet here in Valhalla! So is this the main Wagner thread?

I came across some very fine renditions of Wagner's the Wesendonck Lieder!
Any recommendations of singers that bring wonder to these pieces beyond Régine Crespin?

Régine Crespin Sings Wagner           Régine Crespin/Prêtre/Orchestre National de la Radiodiffusion Française

(https://img.discogs.com/QKX1WqOKFqkmGqlrT0Wg_3GEVho=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-6619843-1423259798-3862.jpeg.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71eGbMU8rAL._SY355_.jpg)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 22, 2018, 12:27:29 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 22, 2018, 10:49:25 AM
I came across some very fine renditions of Wagner's the Wesendonck Lieder!
Any recommendations of singers that bring wonder to these pieces beyond Régine Crespin?

I'd recommend another classic: Janet Baker, Boult conducting

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/feb2016/brahmsboultbaker.jpg)

I also like Studer/Sinopoli and Ludwig/Klemperer


Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Tsaraslondon on May 22, 2018, 02:18:35 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 22, 2018, 12:27:29 PM
I'd recommend another classic: Janet Baker, Boult conducting

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/feb2016/brahmsboultbaker.jpg)

I also like Studer/Sinopoli and Ludwig/Klemperer


Sarge

And I'd second your recommendations, well at least as far as Baker/Boult and Ludwig/Klemperer go. I don't know the Studer/Simopoli version but she is not a singer I generally get on with.



Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Moonfish on May 22, 2018, 02:59:33 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 22, 2018, 12:27:29 PM
I'd recommend another classic: Janet Baker, Boult conducting

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/feb2016/brahmsboultbaker.jpg)

I also like Studer/Sinopoli and Ludwig/Klemperer


Sarge

Thanks Sarge! I do like Janet Baker, but haven't heard her singing Wagner at all.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Tsaraslondon on May 22, 2018, 03:12:42 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 22, 2018, 02:59:33 PM
Thanks Sarge! I do like Janet Baker, but haven't heard her singing Wagner at all.

She's full of surprises. She even recorded a wonderful Waldtaube in Schoenberg's Gurrelieder.

Title: Bayreuth 2018
Post by: ritter on September 01, 2018, 12:02:23 PM
Just wanted to share some impressions of my visit to the Bayreuth Festival this year. This was my fourth visit to the Green Hill, after 1979 (when I was in my mid-teens)—the Boulez/Chéreau Ring, Parsifal, the Dutchman and Lohengrin—, 2012—the Stefan Herheim production of Parsifal—, and 2014—the K. Petrenko/Castorf Ring—.

This visit confirmed my view of the Festival: it strives for artistic excellence, and both the chorus (led now by Eberhard Friedrich) and orchestra are of the highest level. Many (usually those who've never been to it) criticise (or ridicule) what they perceive is thought of as a "Wagnerian pilgrimage" of sorts, for either "insiders" or (mainly German) members of the jet-set. Not at all: IMHO, what makes Bayreuth so special—apart from the unique features of the Festspielhaus itself and the aforementioned highest artistic standards—is the felicitous conjunction of two concepts: i) the festival as a place dedicated to "the festive performance of the works of Richard Wagner" (as stated in Siegfried Wagner's testament), and ii) the festival as a workshop or laboratory ("Werkstatt Bayreuth" was Wolfgang and Wieland Wagner's phrase).

It would be too long (and test the reader's patience) to review all four performances I attended in detail. My two children and I saw Parsifal, Tristan and Meistersinger, and were then joined by my partner for the Dutchman on the last evening. Uwe-Eric Laufenberg's production of Parsifal works much better seen live than on DVD. It has a strong and well developed Konzept, underpinned at moments by striking images, but also is over-cluttered at times. The Good Friday scene was slightly cliché-ridden, and yet very touching. Semyon Bychkov led quite wonderfully (I had already seen him conduct Parsifal here in Madrid, but this was vastly superior), and the cast was uniformly strong (with Günther Groissböck's noble Gurnemanz standing out).

Tristan was less appealing to me. Katharina Wagner's production is—as my son pointed out—very faithful to the ideas underlying the work, or rather, it develops some of them to the extreme. Possibly the third act is the most successful. Christian Thielemann, of course, knows the work and the unique acoustics of the venue backwards, and delivers a strong, very strong performance. Yet, I really do not admire his approach: a Luftpause here (that lasts a couple of seconds more than it should), an accelerando or ritardando there, appear to me relatively facile resources that at times distort the music's form and natural flow. Vocally, things were again strong, even if both leads were a bit unsubtle (particularly Stephen Gould in his—admittedly fiendishly difficult—role).

Meistersinger was a performance to savour, and one which i am sure I'll remember for a long time to come. Barrie Kosky's production is thought-provoking, beautiful to watch, and great fun. Yes, it requires good previous knowledge of the piece and about Wagner and his entourage, it can be slightly over-the-top at times (Sachs, Walther and David are all Wagner lookalikes—and there's other extras dressed as Wagner onstage as well), but it tackles quite cleverly and elegantly issues that are worth addressing, and is technically superb. Philippe Jordan did an excellent job, keeping things moving forward with panache at all moments (this longest of operas went by like a breeze) and brought out all the riches of this contrapuntal feast beautifully. Michael Volle's Sachs and Johannes Martin Kränzle's Beckmesser are both portrayals for the ages (vocally and scenically), Walther von Stolzing suits Klaus-Florián Vogt's unique and considerable talent like a glove, and the Pogner, David, Magdalena and the mastersingers were all  first-rate. Only Emily Magee's Eva (she had already sung the role on the Green Hill under Barenboim as far back as 1997) was not quite in the same league.

A scene from Act I (set in Wahnfried—notice the three Wagner figures onstage  :D):
(https://www.codalario.com/v_portal/inc/imagen.asp?f=Die_Meistersinger_von_Nurnberg_201821.jpg&w=939&c=0)

Our final performance was the Dutchman in the Jan-Philipp Gloger production (in its last outing), ably conducted by Axel Kober. Of course, the Dutchman is a bit of a step backwards after the three "big" work's on the previous evenings, but this was enjoyable as well (but not that memorable).

And then, in perfect summer weather, walking up from the town to the theatre, the fanfares on the front balcony before  each act, the 1-hour long intermissions (where you can walk the gardens and dine on a Franconian Bratwurst from the sausage kiosk), the very special configuration of the theatre (uncomfortable festures notwithstanding), and the walk back down at the end, all make this an experience like few others,  :)

Next year there's a new Tannhäuser (conducted by Gergiev and staged by Tobias Kratzer). It'll presumably run for five years. Let see if I apply (and am awarded) tickets sometime and so will have seen all 10 works of the "Bayreuth canon" at the Festspielhaus.  ;)

Well, even this came out too long  :-[. If you've made it to here, thanks for reading!  8)
Title: Re: Bayreuth 2018
Post by: Mahlerian on September 01, 2018, 02:45:50 PM
Quote from: ritter on September 01, 2018, 12:02:23 PMWell, even this came out too long  :-[. If you've made it to here, thanks for reading!  8)

Thank you for writing!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Madiel on September 01, 2018, 04:17:56 PM
I'm not that much of a Wagnerite, but I found that interesting. So thanks for writing.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: GioCar on September 01, 2018, 09:26:27 PM
I am a (almost  ;)) perfect Wagnerite, and I greatly enjoyed your report. Thank you, Rafael.


Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: motoboy on September 07, 2018, 06:12:28 AM
I wonder ar Amazon's suggestions when I was looking at Solti's studio Ring here:
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: JBS on September 07, 2018, 04:49:20 PM
Quote from: motoboy on September 07, 2018, 06:12:28 AM
I wonder ar Amazon's suggestions when I was looking at Solti's studio Ring here:

My first ever purchase on Amazon was Mahler's Das Lied von der Erde.
Amazon immediately suggested I purchase albums by Korn and a death metal band whose name I don't remember and maybe never knew.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: ritter on September 30, 2018, 10:31:16 AM
(https://freight.cargocollective.com/w/945/q/94/i/ecb2bd7f4db327daa54d36516c7ea00113d7aecaa92250fa1631bd3e0ad32fad/couv-ring-26x17-web.png)

As has now become a tradition, the latest Bayreuth Festival production of the Ring, the controversial but fascinating staging by Frank Castorf, with fabulous sets by Aleksandar Denić, which ran from 2013 to 2017 (conducted in its first three years by Kirill Petrenko and then by Marek Janowski—with an isolated offering of Die Walküre under Plácido Domingo in 2018), is the subject of a book, this time published by La Pommerie in France. Full details available here (https://lapommerie.cargocollective.com/Ring-eng). It seems that the book (with German and French texts) can only be obtained directly from the publisher's website (I don't see it listed on any Amazon site).

A "deluxe" edition also includes a "behind the scenes" DVD. Even if the whole production was broadcast live on TV in 2015 and taped, there's no news of a release on DVD (but there are rumours that the 2018 Walküre will be released next year).

All Bayreuth Ring productions since the legendary Boulez/Chéreau staging of 1976-1980 have been documented and analyzed in one way or another in books:

The Patrice Chéreau/Pierre Boulez Jahrhundertring (French and German editions):
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41oYL-sJGpL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)   (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51XzSleNzeL._SX360_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

Peter Hall/Georg Solti (only in 1983, in subsequent summers the conductor was Peter Schneider)—this is the only one of these books in Englidh AFAIK:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/417Rt1z2c7L._SX400_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

Harry Kupfer/Daniel Barenboim:
(https://images-eu.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41VN6wpXpQL._SL500_SX361_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

Alfred Kirchner/James Levine (focusing on designer Rosalie's sets):
(http://www.hatjecantz.de/files/00009036.jpg)

Jürgen Flimm/Giuseppe Sinopoli (only in its first year—Adam Fischer took over the baton after Sinopoli's untimely death):
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/5106HG5YK3L._SX361_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

Tankred Dorst/Christian Thielemann:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41CT3DOJ7sL._SX334_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

These books are complemented by this survey of all Ring productions in Bayreuth since the first in 1876 up to the Tankred Dorst in 2006:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51KcrVXjghL._SX400_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

Apart from these "official" publications—to which the artists involved and the Festival direction submit texts—there's been at least two pamphlets viciously attacking, respectively, the Chéreau and Castorf productions. I suppose we'd be hard pressed to find the presentation of one single stage work at one single venue so richly documented as is the case of the Ring at Bayreuth.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Moonfish on October 14, 2019, 08:50:09 PM
Listened to Astrid Varnay singing in Wagner's Die Walküre.  It was a cheap Membran compilation originating from the Knappertsbusch 1957 Bayreuth performance. Excellent! I haven't listened much to Varnay so it appears as if there is a goldmine of historical recordings. Yay!  >:D

Disc 1 from
[asin] B00DV1DEAI[/asin]

Likely originating from
[asin] B0010V3M44[/asin]
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Moonfish on October 14, 2019, 08:56:19 PM
And, my usual comment - so quiet in Valhalla.  Aren't we all supposed to be drinking mead in good company?
No love for Wagner?

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Walhall_by_Emil_Doepler.jpg)
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Biffo on October 15, 2019, 12:32:54 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on October 14, 2019, 08:56:19 PM
And, my usual comment - so quiet in Valhalla.  Aren't we all supposed to be drinking mead in good company?
No love for Wagner?

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Walhall_by_Emil_Doepler.jpg)

For some reason my infatuation with the Ring Cycle has fizzled out. This is a shame as I have a pile of recordings of that work waiting to be listened to - Bohm, Janowski, Elder, Goodall and Thielemann. I am sure the madness will return at some point.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Moonfish on October 15, 2019, 01:51:01 AM
I came across a glowing review of Schüchter's recording of "Das Rheingold" from 1952 (Hamburg).  Looking forward to exploring it.  Schüchter appears to have had a relatively low profile (in the shadow of other great conductors?). He recorded a 'Lohengrin' as well if I recall correctly.  I've been exploring vintage Wagner a bit this evening and it is quite interesting. A lot of discussion about the virtues of orchestras, singers and different soundscapes (and engineering). Quite a topography to wander through.

[asin] B000BM3MLQ[/asin]
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Mirror Image on October 15, 2019, 06:15:34 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on October 14, 2019, 08:56:19 PM
And, my usual comment - so quiet in Valhalla.  Aren't we all supposed to be drinking mead in good company?
No love for Wagner?

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Walhall_by_Emil_Doepler.jpg)

I like Wagner, but he's not a composer I can devote so much time to again. I mean it takes four hours to get through Parsifal for example. I know you're not supposed to sit through it in all one setting as that would be madness, but I simply don't have four hours to spend on his music. He also does get rather musically redundant after listening to him for awhile. It's like I know where the music is heading and there's really no twists or turns along the way that surprise me anymore. My hat is off to people who do find the time for him and then there's listeners who are absolutely obsessed with his music. I never reached that level and probably never will.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: AlberichUndHagen on October 29, 2019, 06:05:49 AM
Much has happened during my absence. Among others, I saw a splendid Das Rheingold in last month at Finnish National Opera. The casting was excellent, most splendid singers were Jukka Rasilainen as Alberich and Tuomas Katajala as Loge. Loge actually received clearly the most of the applause. Unfortunately, booing has steadily increased in Finnish national opera during the last few years. On the other hand, I understand the view that it is okay to express displeasure for not liking something that he/she has paid to see but I personally never boo, it just feels mean. Also, sometimes some audience members seem to boo simply because they don't like the character the singer plays morally speaking, as if it were the fault of the singer.

The staging was magnificent, even if a bit traditional (golden apples, mythology-like costumes etc.). Although if what I've heard is correct in this production only Rheingold is set in mythical times. I've heard that Die Walküre which I am going to see next spring would have staging similar to WW2.

While I was familiar with the story of a pencil inscription written in a pillar near Imatrankoski, written according to signature by Richard Wagner (in French, no less!) what I was not familiar with was that this gave birth to rumors that Wagner was composing an opera based on rapids of Imatra, only few years later they found that he was actually writing about Rhine.

Btw, I don't know if coincidental, but this year is the 150th anniversary of the first performance of Das Rheingold.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Florestan on October 29, 2019, 06:15:13 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 15, 2019, 06:15:34 AM
it takes four hours to get through Parsifal for example. I know you're not supposed to sit through it in all one setting as that would be madness

Actually, if you go to Bayreuth you're supposed to do exactly that.  ;D
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Biffo on October 29, 2019, 06:53:24 AM
If you go to a live performance of any Wagner opera you will find there are two intervals; for the very long operas the first one is usually long enough to have a meal. I have never been to a live Parsifal but have seen Götterdämmerung four times, on each occasion there was an interval of one hour after the very lengthy Act I.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Florestan on October 29, 2019, 07:11:03 AM
Quote from: Biffo on October 29, 2019, 06:53:24 AM
If you go to a live performance of any Wagner opera you will find there are two intervals; for the very long operas the first one is usually long enough to have a meal. I have never been to a live Parsifal but have seen Götterdämmerung four times, on each occasion there was an interval of one hour after the very lengthy Act I.

I know but that only extends the length of the whole thing, doesn't it?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Biffo on October 29, 2019, 07:32:14 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 29, 2019, 07:11:03 AM
I know but that only extends the length of the whole thing, doesn't it?

Yes, it does. With intervals Götterdämmerung can last over six hours, with a super-slow conductor like Goodall it can run to six-and-a-half hours. I suppose you need to be dedicated.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Florestan on October 29, 2019, 07:34:04 AM
Quote from: Biffo on October 29, 2019, 07:32:14 AM
Yes, it does. With intervals Götterdämmerung can last over six hours, with a super-slow conductor like Goodall it can run to six-and-a-half hours. I suppose you need to be dedicated.

I suppose it, too. There's no way I could be persuaded to live through such an experience.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Jo498 on October 29, 2019, 01:27:34 PM
I don't remember the details, but I saw two Wagner operas on stage (not Bayreuth, once Parsifal at Berlin Staatsoper and once Siegfried in Bonn). (Götterdämmerung is quite a bit longer than either of them, though) There were two intervals, I think, but they were not as long as in Bayreuth, just regular intervals and the Siegfried started at 5 or 6 p.m. They were long but didn't feel extremely long. Don Giovanni lasts for about 3 hours as well, or sometimes longer with intervals. The St. Matthew is often done without intervals, because in church there is nowhere to go and nothing to do in the intervalm so it is 3 hours straight through.
Of longish operas I found Rosenkavalier much more of a chore to sit through (because except for a handful of scenes/pieces I found it rather boring).
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 29, 2019, 01:31:04 PM
Quote from: Florestan on October 29, 2019, 07:34:04 AM
I suppose it, too. There's no way I could be persuaded to live through such an experience.

And yet it isn't difficult. I have lived through Holländer, Lohengrin, Rheingold, Walküre and Götterdämmerung. It's true, though, that Tristan and Parsifal would be a trial (although I love them in the comfort of my listening room).

Sarge
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Maestro267 on October 30, 2019, 02:31:31 AM
Listening to Parsifal for the first time. I listened to Act 1 yesterday. At 107 minutes, that was enough for one day. I'm near the end of Act 2 now, and it's only 10:30am, so I have plenty of time to listen to Act 3 later.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Madiel on October 30, 2019, 03:36:24 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 29, 2019, 07:11:03 AM
I know but that only extends the length of the whole thing, doesn't it?

By that logic, I should avoid having a lunch hour during my work day so that I can complete my daily hours sooner.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Mandryka on December 01, 2019, 08:33:45 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 29, 2019, 07:34:04 AM
I suppose it, too. There's no way I could be persuaded to live through such an experience.

Wimp
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 17, 2020, 03:11:53 PM
The Lyric Opera of Chicago has joined in on the virtual orchestra fun during these challenging times.
They were supposed to be performing the Ring Cycle 3 times this month, so it's been a real bummer for the entire company that they weren't able to. I did see Lyric perform Die Walküre two years ago, and was planning on hopefully seeing the cycle this month. On a personal note, by brother is principal trombone of Lyric, and shows up at the 1:20 mark of the video.
I hope you enjoy!

If you can't access YouTube here's a link to their Twitter page that includes the video...
https://twitter.com/LyricOpera


https://www.youtube.com/v/3JzqCjuCK2U&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: JBS on April 17, 2020, 03:28:20 PM
Thank you for the link, and good to see you.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 18, 2020, 10:29:06 AM
Quote from: JBS on April 17, 2020, 03:28:20 PM
Thank you for the link, and good to see you.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: vers la flamme on May 19, 2023, 02:39:45 PM
Bump.

Anyone listening to any Wagner lately? I'm still kicking myself for missing Das Rheingold here in Atlanta, GA a few weeks ago, as I'm finally starting to listen to full Wagner operas lately, it seems.

Also in the middle of reading Alex Ross's Wagnerism, a very interesting book, published since the most recent post in this thread, so I suppose I should ask if any of the Wagnerians here have read it with any interest?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Franco_Manitobain on May 19, 2023, 05:59:25 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on May 19, 2023, 02:39:45 PMBump.

Anyone listening to any Wagner lately? I'm still kicking myself for missing Das Rheingold here in Atlanta, GA a few weeks ago, as I'm finally starting to listen to full Wagner operas lately, it seems.

Also in the middle of reading Alex Ross's Wagnerism, a very interesting book, published since the most recent post in this thread, so I suppose I should ask if any of the Wagnerians here have read it with any interest?

Which Ring cycle did you end up with, or still undecided?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: vers la flamme on May 20, 2023, 04:13:21 AM
Quote from: Franco_Manitobain on May 19, 2023, 05:59:25 PMWhich Ring cycle did you end up with, or still undecided?

Still haven't pulled the trigger on one, though I did buy the Dohnányi/Cleveland Rheingold recently, and have been listening to that a lot.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Ganondorf on May 20, 2023, 11:01:14 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on May 19, 2023, 02:39:45 PMAlso in the middle of reading Alex Ross's Wagnerism, a very interesting book, published since the most recent post in this thread, so I suppose I should ask if any of the Wagnerians here have read it with any interest?

So sorry that you missed Rheingold  :(  If it's any consolation, I am kicking myself for having missed Puccini's Fanciulla years ago when I had a chance.
I mentioned in reading thread that I recently read Roger Scruton's Ring of Truth - The Wisdom of Wagner's Ring of the Nibelung which analyzes in superb way Ring. It is influenced greatly by Paul Heise's analysis of Ring (available for free online in Wagnerheim) but I find Roger Scruton's more enjoyable mainly because Heise's interpretation is a bit too abstract (the very thing Scruton himself said even though he was still influenced by Heise in some ways). Heise's is in no way bad and I like it a great deal - just a personal preference for Scruton. If you ever get the chance, I recommend reading Scruton's book. He has also made books about Tristan (which I am currently reading) and Parsifal I think was one of the last of his before his passing.


Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: vers la flamme on May 20, 2023, 12:22:17 PM
Quote from: Ganondorf on May 20, 2023, 11:01:14 AMSo sorry that you missed Rheingold  :(  If it's any consolation, I am kicking myself for having missed Puccini's Fanciulla years ago when I had a chance.
I mentioned in reading thread that I recently read Roger Scruton's Ring of Truth - The Wisdom of Wagner's Ring of the Nibelung which analyzes in superb way Ring. It is influenced greatly by Paul Heise's analysis of Ring (available for free online in Wagnerheim) but I find Roger Scruton's more enjoyable mainly because Heise's interpretation is a bit too abstract (the very thing Scruton himself said even though he was still influenced by Heise in some ways). Heise's is in no way bad and I like it a great deal - just a personal preference for Scruton. If you ever get the chance, I recommend reading Scruton's book. He has also made books about Tristan (which I am currently reading) and Parsifal I think was one of the last of his before his passing.

My dumb ass waited until 1 hour before showtime on the last day to buy my ticket, by which time it was sold out. :( I'm moving to New York in a couple of months, hopefully I'll get the chance to see some Wagner while I'm there. I have never been to the opera in any capacity.

That Scruton book sounds cool, I'll have to look out for it.
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: vers la flamme on May 25, 2023, 06:45:30 AM
I would also like to get a recording of Hollander. Any recommendations?
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 25, 2023, 08:19:15 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on May 25, 2023, 06:45:30 AMI would also like to get a recording of Hollander. Any recommendations?
Definitely Karajan/BPO, there's no more powerful, evocative recording than that one! 😊
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: Valentino on July 17, 2023, 06:09:24 AM
My audiophile whims have now landed the complete Solti Ring on LP (yes, all 19 LPs) here. The new 2022 digital remaster on vinyl. Yes. On that analog note, the US web site Tracking Angle has a very nice long read on opera history and Ring production history, the recording of the Solti Ring, and the releases and reissues over the last 65 years. I found all three parts very good reading and viewing indeed:

https://trackingangle.com/features/the-greatest-recording-ever-made-the-decca-solti-ring-cycle-revisited-and-remastered-part-1
https://trackingangle.com/features/the-greatest-recording-ever-made-the-decca-solti-ring-cycle-revisited-and-remastered-part-2-recording-the-first-studio-ring-cycle
https://trackingangle.com/features/the-greatest-recording-ever-made-the-decca-solti-ring-cycle-revisited-part-3-listening-to-the-decca-ring
Title: New 'Die Walküre' from La Monnaie
Post by: brewski on March 06, 2024, 06:13:52 PM
Was browsing YouTube looking for something else, when I stumbled across this new production of Die Walküre at La Monnaie, directed by Romeo Castellucci and conducted by Alain Altinoglu—just uploaded yesterday from performances in January and February. A quick preview shows excellent audio and video, and more information (with some photos) is here (https://www.lamonnaiedemunt.be/en/program/2658-die-walkure).


-Bruce
Title: Re: Wagner's Valhalla
Post by: lordlance on March 23, 2024, 03:02:40 PM
Been on a Dorati kick and pleasantly surprised by generally high quality of playing. Listening to his Tannhauser Overture/Venusburg off of MLP:

(https://www.zweischeiben.de/media/image/78/4e/bc/T56782.jpg)

I always appreciate fluidity and not getting bogged down by slower tempi because it is more "spiritual" but in this case I am not quite so certain it suits the music. There are times when the music feels "too" fluid. Like a certain broadening of tempi or a thicker orchestral sound might work. That said though it can't really be argued that this is a slightly different approach. Not HIP Wagner certainly but also not as gloriously luxuriant as Karajan.