Boulez Vienna Philharmonic Orch. 5/6/05 Karna Musik CD KA 195M .......... 59:00 - 18:37 19:02 8:23 12:28(from John Berky's discography)
Continuing the ol' thread...I didn't know this was coming out. I heard a radio aircheck of a Boulez 7th which I thought was absolutely outstanding, except for a slightly lightweight first movement, so I guess that's another $20 of mine going to the pockets of Universal. :D
Just received: the 7th, VPO Boulez. Will listen to it in the next few weeks (so many more to listen to ::)
just a question not related to the main topic. out of pure curiosity, why is that only males seem to enjoy the music of Bruckner?
Speak for yourself. My wife loves Bruckner. One of our first dates was Bruckner 7th with Chailly/Concertgebouw. :D
I didn't know this was coming out. I heard a radio aircheck of a Boulez 7th which I thought was absolutely outstanding, except for a slightly lightweight first movement, so I guess that's another $20 of mine going to the pockets of Universal. :D
Speak for yourself. My wife loves Bruckner. One of our first dates was Bruckner 7th with Chailly/Concertgebouw. :D
just a question not related to the main topic. out of pure curiosity, why is that only males seem to enjoy the music of Bruckner?
just a question not related to the main topic. out of pure curiosity, why is that only males seem to enjoy the music of Bruckner?
Heard this week:
Symphony no 5. Otmar Suitner, Berlin Staatskapelle (Berlin Classics, 1990 recording). And another one by the BRSO under Sawallisch (Orfeo). I slightly prefer Suitner's orchestra and Berlin Classics' fabulous recording job. The maestro has some peculiar ideas about tempo, but in the end he carries the day with a very convincing performance. The Sawallisch is clearly more mainstream in terms of conception. An almost straussian reading (late Strauss, that is: Capriccio, not Frau ohne Schatten). Clear-headed, with incisive rythms and quite transparent textures. But slightly less well played and recorded. Not that it's deficient in any way, but the Berlin version is truly outstanding.
OK, I'm intrigued. I have heard great things about Suitner's Bruckner 4th as well and there seems to be an 8th as well. Unfortunately, none of the three are available at amazon. Where do can you get this stuff?
Speak for yourself. My wife loves Bruckner. One of our first dates was Bruckner 7th with Chailly/Concertgebouw. :D
My wife has enjoyed Bruckner for years.
Mrs. Rock enjoys Bruckner.
Symphony No.9, Münchner Philharmoniker, April 1938 HMV (Preiser)
Flowing, swift (very swift in Scherzo) but I don't find it rushed. Unsentimental but not cold, nonhistrionic but neither reticent, structuraly coherent reading with achieved formidable orchestral clarity for the time. Münchner Philharmoniker of '38 doesn't need cutting any slack. Sound decent for 1938, lacking the lowest of lows and having limited dynamic range but nicely detailed and with enough presence.
I quite like it (it has high hummability factor*) but probably not to everybodys taste (most?).
This is I believe the only existing Hausegger recording, of anything, pity.
* I like to sing along with Bruckner, not that I can.
(http://www.emiclassics.com/pack_image.php?icpn=0094638472322&size=190)
Speaking of the individuality of Bruckner’s work, Sir Simon said, “When I went on safari to Africa for the first time, flying in little planes over enormous valleys full of zebra and wildebeest, the only music that ever came to mind was Bruckner’s".
His Proms 7th was another turkey. Fortunately God whipped up a thunderstorm that killed the power here at the start of the Scherzo, sparing me further suffering (I was listening to the radio hookup.).
my 3 year old is not putting up with hour-long sessions on the headphones
The next season of the Montreal symphony will include performances of the 2nd by Blomstedt and the 5th by Nagano.
Does it mean my lady will start enjoying Bruckner as much as Chopin or Brahms as soon as I marry her?
This is off-topic for Bruckner
But this one isn't:
Bruckner is a bore. If God had wanted Wagner to write symphonies, he would have let him write symphonies.
Prayers that last in excess of 50 minutes are always boring.
Who let the curmudgeon in? No matter, I'll deal with him.
You see 67, the boredom inherent in Bruckner's music doesn't bother us at all. Most of us are disciples of Dunbar, that classic philosopher in Catch-22 who asserted that life could be prolonged if you simply cultivated boredom. The more boring something is, the slower time passes. We've discovered Bruckner is perfect for this. Myself, I frequently listen to Celibidache's Bruckner...my god, boredom made manifest in soundwaves!!! I've done calculations and can state without doubt that I'm going to live roughly twenty times longer than the average western middle-class male who eschews Bruckner. I owe it all to dear Anton...and Celi of course :)
Sarge
But this one isn't:
Prayers that last in excess of 50 minutes are always boring.
I don't find Celibidache's Bruckner particularly boring at all honestly.
But this one isn't:
Bruckner is a bore. If God had wanted Wagner to write symphonies, he would have let him write symphonies.
Prayers that last in excess of 50 minutes are always boring.
Even I, cautious as I can be about certain composers, feel that Bruckner was sorely abused here 8)
Wagner did write symphonies, at least, both the Wagners I know of.
Richard wrote one and a half, and his son Siegfried wrote at least one.
Siegfried's symphonies are.... not very good.
B9 giulini/chicago. oh, yeeeaaahhhhhh !!!!
dj
But this one isn't:It's not an effort for me to listen to Sy 5 two consecutive times without doing anything else. Gripping!
Bruckner is a bore. If God had wanted Wagner to write symphonies, he would have let him write symphonies.
Prayers that last in excess of 50 minutes are always boring.
Giulini's 9 with Wiener Philharmoniker is even better.
This set contains all of the symphonies except Nos. 0 and 00, which I'll have to find somewhere else (possibly in another set).
Yesterday, I listened to Symphony No. 1 [...] What I found was a stormy work with great power and energy, punctuated by a nice interlude in the form of a lovely slow movement. I was especially amazed at the scherzo; seldom have I heard one with such power.
And what happened to poor Nietzsche! Was he condemned for his Wagner diatribes??
Anyone heard Gunter Wand's 4th with Munich Philharmonic? I have the live recording and it sounds BETTER than most studio recordings. It wasn't until the end where the audience broke out with thunderclap that I realized it was an on-stage performance.
I've only heard it twice, but I defintely enjoyed it. For a live recording, the sonics were excellent. Boneheim, what is you studio-reference recording for this piece? I generally prefer Karajan in the 4th.
Anyone heard Gunter Wand's 4th with Munich Philharmonic? I have the live recording and it sounds BETTER than most studio recordings. It wasn't until the end where the audience broke out with thunderclap that I realized it was an on-stage performance.
Which one? I assume there are several. Mine on Profil Medien is very nice, but didn't blow me away as much as Jochum (EMI) or Karajan (EMI)'s.
I wasn't comparing it to a performance of the 4th in particular, but rather studio recordings as a whole. Don't you think everything sounds so crisp and clear (especially the ending flourishes, BRILLIANT)? Some studio recordings have duller sound and the layers of the sound aren't projected as smoothly.
P.S. Not to be a spelling nazi or anything, but could you please start calling me Bonehelm instead of heim? Thanks a lot :)
I've only heard it twice, but I defintely enjoyed it. For a live recording, the sonics were excellent. Boneheim, what is you studio-reference recording for this piece? I generally prefer Karajan in the 4th.
If you haven't heard Kubelik (BRSO/Sony) or Böhm (VPO/Decca), you should. Karajan has nowhere near the detail of these two nor the inexorable organic progression.
Yes, sorry about misspelling your name so often. ;)
Bonehelm,
Yes, the entire recording was quite vibrant. Have you heard Karajan?
'has nowhere near the detail'
Could you elaborate?
Yesterday, I listened to Symphony No. 1, and I posted my first impressions in the "Purchases Today" thread. What I found was a stormy work with great power and energy, punctuated by a nice interlude in the form of a lovely slow movement. I was especially amazed at the scherzo; seldom have I heard one with such power. Considering that this is an early work, and not generally considered the best of his output, I will be interested to hear the others. I am listening to them in order, so I'll be posting something about No. 2 before long.
I would be interested to hear the thoughts of others about No. 1, and about the others as I move on to them. Also, recommendations for a second Bruckner cycle would be useful; these seem like symphonies that I should have more than one performance of. Also, perhaps when I'm done with these I will move on to some of his other music. Any thoughts on his masses?
I wasn't comparing it to a performance of the 4th in particular, but rather studio recordings as a whole. Don't you think everything sounds so crisp and clear (especially the ending flourishes, BRILLIANT)? Some studio recordings have duller sound and the layers of the sound aren't projected as smoothly.
That is actually true of Wand's last recordings with the BPOas well--full of exciting, live tension while having clear studio-like sound. I think I may have to add those Munich performances to my list though. ;)
??? I meant the MPO recording, not Berliner Philharmoniker.
If you haven't heard Kubelik (BRSO/Sony) or Böhm (VPO/Decca), you should. Karajan has nowhere near the detail of these two nor the inexorable organic progression.
I think that's why he said "as well".
Agree with you, O, about the detail in the Böhm but still I've never liked that recording. It seems souless to me. I get no rush from it. I admire it; can't love it. Karajan (EMI) remains my favorite version despite the lack of clear detail...or maybe because it lacks detail. The recording makes the Berlin Phil sound like a giant organ (especially so on my old Angel LPs) and I think that works very well for Bruckner. Somebody said Karajan rushes. I've never felt that...and I'm the guy who claims you can't play Bruckner too slowly. In other words, I generally prefer my Bruckner slow. No way would Karajan's Fourth be my favorite if he were a speed demon. Listen to the chorale in the climax of the first movement's development. It's like time is standing still. Listen to how rushed Böhm is. No...I definitely prefer Karajan....and Celi.
I am listening to Wand with the BPO right now. So much more compelling. Throbbing with life and such rich textures. Far better attention to dynamic range, too.
I need my first recording of the 9th and am not sure what to go with, while not going the box set route. Start dropping me some "pearls" please....Whoo-ah! ;)
I need my first recording of the 9th and am not sure what to go with, while not going the box set route. Start dropping me some "pearls" please....Whoo-ah! ;)
I need my first recording of the 9th and am not sure what to go with, while not going the box set route. Start dropping me some "pearls" please....Whoo-ah! ;)
I'm never sure whether to recommend historic recordings for a first time, but given how excellent this is, and it being a budget disc, it is a good choice:
Coupled with the Te Deum (on one disc). Bruno Walter, Columbia Symphony Orchestra, Sony Masterworks. I'm sure an American store would have it for cheaper.
If it's a 'pearl' you're after, Bogey, here's the capstone of Bruckner 9th's, in glorious technicolor sound:
(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/3934966.jpg)
What the blue hell...Handel and Bruckner both in one package? ???
Oh, no, the Walter is historic now :o ;)
My favorite 9th is Giulini's:
(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/416K5KAEQGL._AA240_.jpg)
Jochum's Dresden 9th is also reviewed favorably and available on a budget two-fer with the 8th.
Continued thanks folks, I will try to sample all....out of the recs. which would you consider to be the slowest/darkest(?) reading?
Of the recordings I own on CD (have several more on LP), Giulini is definitely the slowest.
I understand that this one was dedicated to Wagner, and that earlier versions contained quotes from his music.
Of the recordings I own on CD (have several more on LP), Giulini is definitely the slowest. But Jochum's tempos don't prevent his from being dark, very dark indeed. But you can see they stand at opposite interpretive extremes, at least in regards tempo. Giulini takes 35 seconds longer to reach that first, apocalyptic climax in the first movement. Jochum sounds like he's ignored Bruckner's misterioso marking (not that misterioso means slow but in practice it comes out that way).
Giulini's tempo works really well in the 9th imo. For me, the third movement becomes almost unbearably devastating and intense almost to breaking point.
I also like Furtwangler 1944 BPO for a more rugged and urgent account.
Timings for this are:
23'41 9'35 25'38
The Third is my favorite as well, Sarge. I only have Jochum's BPO, Tintner's RSNO, and Inbal's Frankfurt 3rds, however. The later two are both performances of the original version. Of those three, the Tintner performances is far and away my favorite. The Inbal recording seems a little muddy and lacks the clarity of the Naxos disc. I'm not sure if it was an issue of microphone placement or sound engineering. The RSNO also seems more committed to Tintner's vision and they play with real fervor. I cannot really place where the Jochum recording goes wrong for me, but I seldom make it through the entire symphony... much less the first movement.
Barenboim's Berlin 9th (available separately from the box, I think) is probably the best thing in his cycle...which means it's very good indeed.
I have and enjoy Barbirolli's and Karajan's Gold (more expensive) live version. :)
I assume you mean for the 8th? I think Bill was asking about the 9th. I like Barbirolli's 8th, but his BBC 9th is not so hot, and the sound is lousy IMO.
Lots of good recs here for the 9th. I'll toss in another vote for Bruno Walter, though the Orfeo Kubelik is also superb. Giulini is excellent as well, and certainly fits the slow & dark criteria (he also has a nice version on DVD with a rehearsal sequence, if you're into that sort of thing). The Furtwangler is very intense, I don't think I'd recommend it as a first recording, but if you end up enjoying the 9th and want a 2nd alternative, look no further.
The transfer on Furtwängler's 1944 9th (1996 Iron Needle), however, is just about perfect... though it may only be due to listening to that bad recording just before it. :)Probably. The Iron Needle transfer is actually a pirate copy of the DG one with reverb added and heavy noise filtering.
I just finished listening to Böhm's 1936 4th with the Sächsische (aka Dresden) Staatskapelle. I have to say, it is a unique reading and hard to make out what exactly was "Romantic" about it ;). It is very quick--too much so; nicht zu schnell did not compute, I supose. I know some are on the outs with Böhm's '73 VPO recording because he does have relatively brisk timings, but it is wholy expansive compared to this early recording. The bright side, the scherzo is very aggressively 'moving' and really flies. It does not feel as energetic as Jochum's BPO sherzo even with the faster timings. But that may have more to do with the gorgeous DG sound on that Jochum cycle.
It also didn't help that the transfer source was probably not in very good shape (1995 Golden Memories). There was more hiss and popping than I could tolerate, and there seemed to be a warp in the source, so there is a background squeek that becomes more prominant as the needle approaches what would be the center of the record--moreso on the first two movements. It only accentuates the already frenetic performance... and not positively.
Probably. The Iron Needle transfer is actually a pirate copy of the DG one with reverb added and heavy noise filtering.
M&A or DG (if they can be found) are to be preferred.
The Furtwangler can be found in this DG box:
(http://images.ciao.com/ide/images/products/normal/587/Wilhelm_Furtwangler_an_Anniversary_Tribute_Box_Set_Various__1481587.jpg)
or as a single disk from hmv japan (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1839461).
:)
Very good, yes, but I still prefer the earlier CSO version.
Probably. The Iron Needle transfer is actually a pirate copy of the DG one with reverb added and heavy noise filtering.
M&A or DG (if they can be found) are to be preferred.
The Furtwangler can be found in this DG box:
(http://images.ciao.com/ide/images/products/normal/587/Wilhelm_Furtwangler_an_Anniversary_Tribute_Box_Set_Various__1481587.jpg)
Thank you for the heads up, Edward. I will be sure to find either the DG or Music & Arts release when I add this fine performance to my collection. I wonder what the library will do if I alert them to the nature of the pressing I borrowed from them.Probably nothing. The laws against piracy are effectively unenforceable when it it comes to such recordings (how do you prove it's someone else's transfer when extra filtering has been applied anyway?).
As does the Hurwitzer. I suppose I am in the minority here but his Chicago Bruckner doesn't pull me in like the Berlin does. Come to think of it, there is very little Bruckner by American orchestras I do like. The Dohnányi/Cleveland Fifth. Szell's Eighth. That's about it. I'm sure M could tell us why that is ;D
Interesting review. Thanks. One more bit of proof that performances overall have been getting slower and slower since the first half of the last century?
Was able to sample Giulini but cannot find streams of Furtwängler, Walter, Kubelik or Haitink for that matter.....is this stuff classified Sarge? 8)
Or here for $1.35:
http://www.classicalmusicmobile.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=32&products_id=466 (http://www.classicalmusicmobile.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=32&products_id=466)
:D
Here's a sample of the Furtwangler:
Was able to sample Giulini but cannot find streams of Furtwängler, Walter, Kubelik or Haitink for that matter.....is this stuff classified Sarge? 8)
Was able to sample Giulini but cannot find streams of Furtwängler, Walter, Kubelik or Haitink for that matter.....is this stuff classified Sarge? 8)
It may have more to do with the evolution of recording media...
First of all, thank you very much to everyone for all your efforts/reviews here and the digging up of samples for me.....all was most helpful. Out of the four that I have sampled the results are:
1st Giulini
2nd Walter
3rd Furtwängler
4th Haitink
I still need to sample the Kubelik, if samples are to be found, but I have to say that any of the above would be a nice addition to my shelf. However, I would want another recording if I only had the Furtwängler....liked it more than Haitink, but still was missing something that Giulini and Walter had to offer....maybe save that one for my historic section.
I still need to sample the Kubelik, if samples are to be found...
Giulini 28:02 10:39 29:30
Klemperer 26:43 11:23 27:12
Barenboim 25:30 10:41 27:17
Haitink 25:11 10:51 26:28
Abendroth 23:24 8:58 21:34
Jochum 23:06 9:49 27:39
When I get ready to buy more recordings of Bruckner's symphonies, I'll have to go back through all of the recommendations here.
Heather
Don,
Thanks for the review and trying to dig up some samples.
I was hoping that it would say what a "weak" perforance it was so I could cross it off my list. :)
LeitnerI have the Leitner 6th on the way to me: would it provide a good way to assess the potential merits of his 9th?
If it's the SWF production (Freiburg and Baden-Baden), yes, absolutely. Same granitic, high voltage, uneccentric playing and conducting and superb recording. That's one of my top picks for that work, and it comes with his indispensable Hartmann 6th.Thanks.
There's another Leitner 6th out there (Basle, Switzerland) which is quite different. I love that one too, but it's not one for everyday consumption.
When I get ready to buy more recordings of Bruckner's symphonies, I'll have to go back through all of the recommendations here.
Anyway, I listened to Nos. 4 and 5 today. Like 1 and 2, there is a striking contrast between these. No. 4 is big and powerful, at times sounding Wagnerian. It is immediately appealing and easy to like. The "Hunt" scherzo is quite exciting, and I like the contrast of the more delicate trio. The slow movement exhibits and interesting range of emotions; at times it sounds like a funeral march, while other passages take on a more positive mood.
No. 5 seems to be heading in a different direction; the Wagnerian grandeur is much diminished, and it is replaced by a more austere, introspective mood. I sense a great deal of emotional depth here, and after only one hearing, I feel like I have barely scratched the surface and there is likely a lot more to be discovered. There are frequent shifts of mood. In particular, the scherzo starts out rather dark and stormy, but quickly shifts to a brighter phrase. In the finale, I was unsure until the very end whether I thought it would end on a tragic or a triumphant note; it kept me in suspense for a long time.
Didn't hear Simone Young's Bruckner, but the description is very tempting. Tintner also uses that original edition of the second. While very interesting, there's no denying that he stretches the tempi to unnatural lengths. A more bracing interpretaiton would probably give a better idea of what this edition is all about.
FWIW, my favourite 9ths are (alphabetically)
Giulini VPO
Klemperer
Leitner
Mehta
Wand NDR in Hamburg (NOT the impossibly reverberated Lübeck one).
The Leitner and Wand currently hold the top spot. Note that the Leitner is available as a cheap download at eclassical. I've had it on disc for the past 5 years and it's still firmly in place as my overall 'benchmark' recording.
Of equal artistic value, but flawed by technical or orchestral limitations:
Abendroth
Delman
Furtwängler
Kubelik (I find the orchestra audibly tires in III and it mars the end result somewhat; notwithstanding, it's a magnificent interpretation, esp. in I)
Other very satisfying worthies:
Barenboim CSO
Blomstedt Gewandhaus
Giulini CSO (M Forever pointed to a horn clam in the introduction about 1' in and I find it hard to get past it now :'( .).
Walter
Young apprenticed with Barenboim, so she should know her way around a Bruckner symphony.
(http://real1.phononet.de/cover/small/614/486/cx03erjm.j31)
Have any of you heard this recording?
Young's 2nd gets a review on SA-CD.net (http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/4461) and a run down of other non-Carragan version 2nds are also provided for comparison's sake. Sounds like an interesting reading. The review mentions the timings are identical to Tintner's Carragan 2nd on Naxos (20:54 10:59 18:06 21:19 according to my iTunes library)
Young's 2nd gets a review on SA-CD.net (http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/4461) and a run down of other non-Carragan version 2nds are also provided for comparison's sake. Sounds like an interesting reading. The review mentions the timings are identical to Tintner's Carragan 2nd on Naxos (20:54 10:59 18:06 21:19 according to my iTunes library) but does not make any other mention of that performance beyond that coincidence.
The odd thing is, though, he didn't compare Young directly to Tintner. I'd like to know why I should invest in Young if I already own Tintner. He didn't give me a reason.
The odd thing is, though, he didn't compare Young directly to Tintner. I'd like to know why I should invest in Young if I already own Tintner. He didn't give me a reason.
I'll give you one: her orchestra can't possibly be worse than Tintner's.
I'll give you one: her orchestra can't possibly be worse than Tintner's.
I think you are being more than unfair to the RSNO. Sure, the group lacks the Bruckner resumé of a Vienna, Berlin, Dresden or even Munich or Bavarian group, but they certainly did provide Tintner's vision with capable play. The performances and sound on much of the Tintner cycle is competent and engaging... particularly considering they were often working from non-standard repertoire (in terms of the editions recorded) throughout the cycle. The first and the third from that cycle are among some of my favorites of all of the Bruckner recordings I have heard, but then, I am far from an expert. ;)IIRC, the Tintner 2nd is with the National Symphony Orchestra of Ireland, which is distinctly wobblier an ensemble than the RSNO (not that I am a fan of the RSNO, having put up with far too many poor performances from them back when I lived in Scotland).
IIRC, the Tintner 2nd is with the National Symphony Orchestra of Ireland, which is distinctly wobblier an ensemble than the RSNO (not that I am a fan of the RSNO, having put up with far too many poor performances from them back when I lived in Scotland).
I'll give you one: her orchestra can't possibly be worse than Tintner's.
However I really do not know why anyone bothers with that Carragan edition of the 1872 #2. I have both the Tintner and the (much better) Eichhorn - but neither comes close to comparing with e.g. Giulini/VSO or Konwitschny/BerlinRSO conducting the (1877) Haas edition. Stick with that, would be my advice.
She looks really bored in that picture. You sure she know what she's doing?
Isn't Carragan the same who inflicted upon us that atrociously cleaned up Hollywood-ish performing version of the finale to the 9th that Talmi recorded? To anyone who has heard Harnoncourt's performance and lecture about the surviving bits of the original, the Carragan completion is completely unlistenable. It's as if he tried to make all the errors Harnoncourt complains of.
No Keilberth?
Comparing this 1936 recording with the Decca Vienna Philharmonic recording Karl Böhm made 38 years on, one finds that the Vienna Philharmonic performance has slightly slower speeds and a glowing, streamlined sound; but it is the warmer, distinctive timbre of the Dresden orchestra which perfectly echoes the composer's title Romantic. The sounds of nature, and in particular the first movement fanfares with their old-world feel, the resignation of the second, the thrill of the hunt in the third, and the classes of poetry and high drama in the Finale, are perfectly balanced in this splendid recording.
The problem with these pirate transfers is that they take any old ratty set of 78s, and record them through any old equipment - often without bothering to apply the correct equalisation - or even play them at exactly the right speed - and then try to "process" them with crudely added reverb / bass lift / treble cut / whatever - and the result is, generally, unlistenable.Often they don't even take any set of 78s at all: just "process" someone else's transfer that's already been issued on CD. Why bother locating old discs when you can steal the results of someone else's hard work?
She looks really bored in that picture. You sure she know what she's doing?
Fortunately that 1936 Böhm / Dresden #4 exists in a superb transfer on Dutton - who appear to have taken a virgin set of shellacs and read them with a laser rather than a pickup - and the result is remarkable for its age. I checked this again a couple of nights ago - and for the first time, actually read the sleeve notes, which say:
Worth seeking out.
I am also curious about the Ninth Symphony and the various attempts to bring the fragmentary finale to the public.
I find the the Mazzucca/Cohrs/etc reconstruction makes a much more convincing case than that wretched Carragan effort. Of the two recordings I have, Eichhorn/Linz is the better performance overall, but Wildner/Westphalia on Naxos is a good runner-up - and actually not a bad #9 with or without the Finale (and also cheap, if it's still available.)
You do have to bear in mind that, as Robert Simpson puts it, "this is not a Mahler #10 situation". If a Bruckner symphony is a cathedral, then what we here are the blocks in the stonemasons' yard round the back, from which it was intended that the missing North Transept would one day have been constructed. A good deal of "creativity" goes into any attempt to make more of it than a forensic survey of the various bits.
Have you listened to the Harnoncourt?
Yes I have. Well, mostly. My problem with that recording, as with all of Harnoncourt's Bruckner that I've heard (in the concert hall as well as on disk) is staying awake until the end. One of these days I'm hoping to manage it.
Well I hope no-one buys this based solely on my recommendation, as my tastes in these things are well known to be, shall we say, somewhat "individual". Which is why I try to stay out of the discussions, mostly.
Symphony No. 6 seemed like somewhat of a continuation of No. 5; a similar dark, introspective mood was present. However, the mood seemed a bit more varied and I tried to figure out what this symphony had to say, with only limited success. To not quite "get" a late Romantic symphony on the first hearing isn't entirely unusual; if anything, it is a good sign that there might be some real depth to it. This is one that I will be spending more time with.
Symphony No. 7, in contrast, exhibited a return to the power and grandeur of some of the earlier ones, and was more immediately easy to appreciate. It would be hard for me to find words to describe the slow movement; it is almost a half-hour of sheer beauty that had me completely absorbed.
Mass No. 2 is more austere and serene than No. 1. It lacks soloists, and the orchestra consists only of woodwinds and brass. It is polyphonically rich (as is much of Bruckner's music) and, in a way, sounds both ancient and Romantic at the same time. There is a lot going on here; I will certainly have to listen to it a few more times to gain a deeper understanding.
Not sure I agree with that. The 5th has that incredible, glorious finale with that massive fugue that is kicked off by the clarinet's quizzical interruptions of quotations from the prior three movements. It's rather unique in Bruckner's output. The 6th by contrast is in many ways Bruckner's most intimate symphony.
. . . kicked off by the clarinet's quizzical interruptions of quotations from the prior three movements. It's rather unique in Bruckner's output.
Mass No. 2 is more austere and serene than No. 1. It lacks soloists, and the orchestra consists only of woodwinds and brass. It is polyphonically rich (as is much of Bruckner's music) and, in a way, sounds both ancient and Romantic at the same time. There is a lot going on here; I will certainly have to listen to it a few more times to gain a deeper understanding.
But then, the main theme sounds remarkably similar to the main theme of Lawrence of Arabia. Maybe if I could get that allusion out of my head it would sound more intimate. ;D
But . . . now, what does that remind me of? 8)
However it is certainly true that once a Dutton issue sells out, that's it. I was too slow off the mark when Dutton were flogging off their Jensen/Nielsen recordings, and once I realised what I'd missed, no amount of pleading would get Michael Dutton to source me a copy.
Is it just me or does anyone hear a glimpse of classical music (Haydn, Mozart, early LvB) in Bruckner's symphonies? Also, the structure is always four movements...interesting.
That's one of my favorite things about Bruckner: he seems to be looking farther into the past and farther into the future at the same time. His chorales (whether for brass in his symphonies or for voices in his masses) hark back to plainchant and the entire Christian musical tradition, while his chromaticism, dissonances, orchestration and harmonic clashes look forward beyond late romanticism deep into modernism. That's what makes those enormous symphonies of his a continuing source of discovery and rediscovery.
Is it just me or does anyone hear a glimpse of classical music (Haydn, Mozart, early LvB) in Bruckner's symphonies? Also, the structure is always four movements...interesting.
I'm a huge fan of Bruckner! Who are your top five Bruckner conductors?
Bongartz (6)
I'm a huge fan of Bruckner! Who are your top five Bruckner conductors?
This is my top five:
1) Herbert von Karajan
2) Bruno Walter
3) Sergiu Celibidache
4) Günter Wand
5) Eugen Jochum
Cheers! 8)
Not that much different, really. A good 2/3 of those you list are among favourite versions. And maybe I should have added that Celibidache's 5 and 8 and Furtwängler 8 and 9 are right up there at the top, but they don't really compare with anyone else's. Hors concours, I should say.
Yesterday's listening was devoted to the Toscanini 7th (NYPO, 1935). This is a newly found issue from the radio archives of the day.......
No Matacic? :'( :'(
Has anyone here heard Sawallisch Bruckner 5th on Orfeo? It's one of the reference recordings on www.classicstoday.com for this symphony.
I also hear some Schubert in his music is a primary influence, although I've never managed to pinpoint exactly which elements reflect this, more just a feel. Perhaps those effortlessly melodic scherzos are part of it.
Which Matacic recordings can be considered top-notch? I think about ordering his critically acclaimed 7th on Supraphon, but I see there also is an 8th and a 9th available.
Which Matacic recordings can be considered top-notch?
And how it came to the light of day you can read all about in this (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.classical.recordings/browse_thread/thread/d89f8b023738a1c5/f5899f769bb22284?q=toscanini+fake&lnk=ol&) classic whodunnit with elements of Hitchcockian suspense and neo-noirish denial......
Thanks: so Berky confirms, I trust he's done his homework. The orchestration changes Toscanini made seem to me limited to the timpani parts (Finale at two places - very effective!). Anyone spotted other changes?
No Schuricht? :'(
No Matacic? :'( :'(
Which Matacic recordings can be considered top-notch? I think about ordering his critically acclaimed 7th on Supraphon, but I see there also is an 8th and a 9th available.
Has anyone here heard Sawallisch Bruckner 5th on Orfeo? It's one of the reference recordings on www.classicstoday.com for this symphony.
No, I haven't heard these conductors in Bruckner yet. I'll rectify that.
Sarge
You MUST get Schuricht's VPO Bruckner 8th. It's unbelievable. Such energy, such inexorable forward motion.
You MUST get Schuricht's VPO Bruckner 8th. It's unbelievable. Such energy, such inexorable forward motion.
Matacic's 9. But more importantly , I forgot to list my current top 9, Wand NDRSO in Hamburg. I edited my post.
I haven't heard his 5th but his 6th is superb.
Sarge
You MUST get Schuricht's VPO Bruckner 8th. It's unbelievable. Such energy, such inexorable forward motion.
Isn't that OOP?
I couldn't imagine being without his 6th. Just an incredible performance.
I have his 4th (SWR), 5, 8 & 9 (VPO). With which orchestra did he record the 6th?
As with No. 7, both have massive nearly-half-hour slow movements which seemed to draw me into their sound world. While the other movements may have more power and grandeur, it is these slow movements that I find especially appealing.
The problem with these pirate transfers is that they take any old ratty set of 78s, and record them through any old equipment - often without bothering to apply the correct equalisation - or even play them at exactly the right speed - and then try to "process" them with crudely added reverb / bass lift / treble cut / whatever - and the result is, generally, unlistenable.
Fortunately that 1936 Böhm / Dresden #4 exists in a superb transfer on Dutton - who appear to have taken a virgin set of shellacs and read them with a laser rather than a pickup - and the result is remarkable for its age.
You MUST get Schuricht's VPO Bruckner 8th. It's unbelievable. Such energy, such inexorable forward motion.
The Amazon seller was fast! I got the Schuricht 8th today. I may have time to listen to it tomorrow.
where can I still order the elusive last Bruckner 5 by Jochum/Concertgebouw on Tahra? How much is it?
I haven't listened to it yet. There's a fascinating comment by Jochum on his interpretation of that symphony.
Giulini's expansive readings of these symphonies expose great detail in the slow movements. The Adagio to the 8th is particularly moving. His 2nd is available from Testament (http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-No-2-Anton/dp/B00005K3PZ) and his 8th through Arkiv's OOP reprinting (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=56689).
I wouldn't bother with a $30 CD-R from Archiv when you can still get pressed CDs from Japan (http://www.hmv.co.jp/search/index.asp?target=CLASSIC&genre=700&adv=1&keyword=giulini+bruckner) for $25 including shipping. Unfortunately, no English notes in the Japanese issue, either. Also, they have the Chicago 9th as a separate issue. I don't like the brass playing in that one; it seems too cutting for Bruckner.
I wouldn't bother with a $30 CD-R from Archiv when you can still get pressed CDs from Japan (http://www.hmv.co.jp/search/index.asp?target=CLASSIC&genre=700&adv=1&keyword=giulini+bruckner) for $25 including shipping. Unfortunately, no English notes in the Japanese issue, either. Also, they have the Chicago 9th as a separate issue. I don't like the brass playing in that one; it seems too cutting for Bruckner.
87 minutes for the Nowak Edition? He is getting close to Celibidache territory although I think Celi uses the Haas.
They both use Nowak... for a time, I thought it could not get any more broad than that Giulini. I have only just begun absorbing Celibidache's 8th this week. I cannot imagine ever returning to Jochum's 1964 Berlin 8th (also Nowak) as it just seems way too quick in contrast at around 74 minutes. :)
Neither can I, but not for the same reasons. My preferences for the 8th are broad enough to find plenty of satisfaction in interpretations that span a wide range of timings. It's not so much the tempi. By and large Van Beinum, Haitink Amsterdam (1969), Jochum Berlin, Mrawinsky, Carlos Païta and Barbirolli are in the same timing range ( 72-74 minutes) but taken together they cover a huge canvas of interpretive possibilities.
Few interpretations over 84 minutes satisfy me, but the Celibidache does, even though it's a good 12-15 minutes than the next slowest.
In short: this moves ahead of the other Jochums available, and near the top of the list. It's a very deep experience.
I saw the 8th at HMV from an unfamiliar label, Altus.
question: Solti's B7 with the VPO, is that available in the west? Anyone know when it was recorded?
http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2514397
question: Solti's B7 with the VPO, is that available in the west? Anyone know when it was recorded?
http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2514397
After hearing no less than 5 different cycles of Bruckner's symphonies, i have conclude that it is Eugen Jochum, his live recording of the fifth (Ottobeuren 1964) has to be one of the finest out there.
any other thoughts?
How do we define best? Most faithful to the score? (If so, which version(s)?) Most "Bruckner-ian" sound environment? Still, when we get into that, we'd have to agree about what that environment is and how you quantify it. Simply saying something is the "best," without definitions and evidence, seems a bit arbitrary and possibly beyond justification.
In order to "decide" that, one would have to "completely understand" Bruckner's music. Which no one does.
Why, do you think, is Eugen Jochum the "best" interpreter of Bruckner?
You are correct, M forever, you were in the beginners section, but I doubt any beginner to classical music would be familiar with five cycles of Bruckner's music, hence I moved it here where MahlerTitan's question and your reply could receive further deserving comments.
Where is Mahler Titan's question? I saw M's reply but had no idea what he was replying to. When I first read it, I assumed he was condemning this thread (Bruckner's Abbey).
Sarge
Maybe it got left behind in the other thread?
i deleted, M forever thought i asked a stupid question, so there is no point for me to have this stupid thread here. the original posts simply says, "who do you think is the best interpretor of Bruckner"
i deleted, M forever thought i asked a stupid question, so there is no point for me to have this stupid thread here. the original posts simply says, "who do you think is the best interpretor of Bruckner", according to M forever, by saying that I am stupid, and belong to kindergarten.
Certainly not. Bruckner's music, perhaps more than that of many other composers, can sustain a very wide interpretive spectrum. If you like the music to begin with, you will find that there are many gratifying approaches to his work, many of which will make you want to revisit other interpretations as well. Interpretive styles can range from the urgent (Jochum), to the classically poised (van Beinum), to the mystic (Giulini), to the anguished (Furtwängler, at least in the 9th), to the majestic (Karajan), to the driven (Schuricht), to the suspended in time (late Celibidache), etc. And all of these are vast simplifications. There is little point in anointing someone as the "best" where the interpretive variety is so broad and diverse, yet among that variety there are so many equally convincing and gratoying approaches that to put one above the others would serve no purpose.
i guess they really have a problem with the word "Best", and i admit that the word "best" is quite a problematic word, but i wasn't trying to make a serious statement or anything, and off M forever goes with all of his personal attacks, which i think was quite uncalled for.
So MT, is the Fifth your favorite? If so, I highly recommend hearing the Sinopoli with Dresden. There is a great deal of love for it among Sinopoli fans since it was his last recording, but even if it weren't, everything about it is quite marvelous.
--Bruce
well, I guess. the fifth has always been a tough one for me to understand. I understood the 1st, 4th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th quite easily, but I didn't really start to like the fifth after the Jochum's recording.
so finding "the best" is a difficult mission.
well, I guess. the fifth has always been a tough one for me to understand. I understood the 1st, 4th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th quite easily, but I didn't really start to like the fifth after the Jochum's recording. I think my favorite is either the 7th or the 9th.
I guess as long as he's looking for HIS best, I think it's very possible, no? :)
For Furtwängler's 1942 5th, is there anyone who is familiar with both the Opus Kura transfer and the Music & Arts one? And if so, which has better sound? It seems that both of those are readily available, so I just have to figure out which to opt for.
*edit: it also looks like some Amazon resellers have the DG release available as well, so there's a third transfer to consider...
(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/95/06/b268a2c008a0bdf7c596c010._AA240_.L.jpg)
i also think Carl Schuricht's Bruckner fifth with SRSO deserves a mention.
i was reading this article on Jstor, very informative.
Download the attachment!
Of DG, M&A and Opus Kura (transfer of a Melodiya-LP), Opus Kura has beyond any doubt the very best sound.
The unknown (to me) factor in the equation is Melodiya's own recent reissue however. If it is as good as the other issue (Sibelius) I bought from their FW reissues, it could even be (a bit) better still. But the Opus Kura is very good - miles ahead in comparison to DG and M&A.
Thank you, Que. I have ordered the Opus Kura as it seem to offer the best price and shortest distance from me to order.
I completely agree.
So MT, is the Fifth your favorite? If so, I highly recommend hearing the Sinopoli with Dresden. There is a great deal of love for it among Sinopoli fans since it was his last recording, but even if it weren't, everything about it is quite marvelous.
This whole discourse on the merits on various interpretations, styles of orchestral playing or conducting in Bruckner is what the Bruckner Abbey is all about.
Dunno. I have heard that, too, but Berky lists his two recordings under Nowak.
I once looked at the score of the Schalk edition, there was some pretty weird stuff going on in there. For instance, Schalk made the rising fanfares of the first tutt entry all legato, slurred upwards, kind of of Heldenleben-like. And plenty more of that strangeness. But he only meant well!
Matacic uses the standard edition, not the Schalk arrangement (cut by some 15 minutes and reorchestrated). The only extant recordings of the latter are the Knappertsbusch and Botstein. In addition to these two, there seems to be a recording from Japan, where Bruckner gives Buddah a run for his money in terms of popularity.
Any thoughts on Horenstein would be appreciated as well. This is a name that I hear often, but have never explored his Bruckner.
Found it. A review in ClassicsToday, beginning, "It's a curious thing that as late as 1973 Lovro von Matacic would choose to record the Schalk edition of Bruckner's Symphony No. 5..."
Full review here:
http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11058
Seems not to be the full Schalk edition but a Matacic hybrid.
Sarge
Advance notice that next Thursday morning at 01:00 BBC Radio3 will be broadcasting this:
1.00am
A concert recorded in Istria, Croatia in 1973.
Bruckner, Anton (1824-1896): Symphony No 7 in E
Zagreb Philharmonic Orchestra
Lovro von Matacic (conductor)
Some time ago they broadcast a performance of #9 by the same forces, recorded at around the same time, which was worth a listen. I'll be recording this (if I remember.)
Okay, I'm beginning the Bruckner journey, and can finally post here. ;)
I have the Karajan/Berlin set to listen to. Is he a good introductory set?
So far I have heard his "Study" symphony on the radio and really liked it, #00? Or #0? Don't remember the performers. The numbers and version of Bruckner's symphonies can get quite confusing!
And what I've heard of the 9th floored me, the 1st mvmt so far (the impetus being M's MO game).
I just finished the 1st and it is mightily impressive. :) I have concluded I just cannot listen to Bruckner on headphones because he so often has the orchestra blasting away at full tilt for long periods and it is just too much. Bruckner must be a total trip live.
I don't know what comments to make about the 1st yet, except the triumphant finale is amazing, and I loved the Scherzo. Love. Is it wrong to say its Beethoven-ish? It's incredible. Last part of the 1st movement is really exciting. The Adagio will take more listening but the slow build to the rapturous peak near the end is beautiful.
Are there any particular symphonies that are good choices to go to next?
I have the Karajan/Berlin set to listen to. Is he a good introductory set?
Are there any particular symphonies that are good choices to go to next?
The 4th...is more accessible for Bruckner newcomers.
The 4th was probably the first I heard, and several years later, I still don't understand why it's so popular.
Okay, I'm beginning the Bruckner journey, and can finally post here. ;)
I have the Karajan/Berlin set to listen to. Is he a good introductory set?
So far I have heard his "Study" symphony on the radio and really liked it, #00? Or #0? Don't remember the performers. The numbers and version of Bruckner's symphonies can get quite confusing!
And what I've heard of the 9th floored me, the 1st mvmt so far (the impetus being M's MO game).
I just finished the 1st and it is mightily impressive. :) I have concluded I just cannot listen to Bruckner on headphones because he so often has the orchestra blasting away at full tilt for long periods and it is just too much. Bruckner must be a total trip live.
I don't know what comments to make about the 1st yet, except the triumphant finale is amazing, and I loved the Scherzo. Love. Is it wrong to say its Beethoven-ish? It's incredible. Last part of the 1st movement is really exciting. The Adagio will take more listening but the slow build to the rapturous peak near the end is beautiful.
Are there any particular symphonies that are good choices to go to next?
A Bruckner Meltdown
Stanislaw Skrowaczewski and the Cleveland Orchestra.
August 6, 1976 at the Blossom Music Center.
This must have been a live broadcast...
While we are still at the 4ths, is anyone familiar with this one, looks interesting (and sadly very much oop)
http://www.tahra.com/?ref=328&lang=en (http://www.tahra.com/?ref=328&lang=en)
Related to that, I wonder what this is like (another B4):
(http://www.hbdirect.com/coverm/08/987608.jpg)
Very in-print, dunno about the sound.
I just finished the 1st and it is mightily impressive. :) I have concluded I just cannot listen to Bruckner on headphones because he so often has the orchestra blasting away at full tilt for long periods and it is just too much. Bruckner must be a total trip live.
This week's Bruckner fare consisted of :
- Symphony no 7, Orchestre métropolitain du Grand Montréal, Yannick Nézet-Séguin (2007).[/b]
The Nézet-Séguin 7th is a brand new issue, recorded live in the beautifully spacious and transparent acoustics of St-John the Baptist Church, Montreal. I was mightily surprised by this disc. It is so different from anything I've heard before as to be in a category of its own. The orchestra numbers about 75 players and as I've mentioned they play in a large venue, with a long sound decay (3-4 seconds). It has to be played at a substantially higher level than usual to achieve good sonic impact. Once the volume level has been adjusted, it sounds splendidly natural. What comes across is an extraordinarily luminous, reflective account. Beauty of phrasing seems to be the operative word form first note to last.
What struck me most was the total control exerted by the conductor over the rythms and dynamics. Tempi in the first 2 movements are spacious (22:00 and 25:40). Variations of pulsebetween sections are absolutely seamless. This induces a kind of trance-like, hypnotic feeling, although sometimes it makes one wish for some excitement. Forget about Jochum-like accelerandos as the climax of the Adagio is in sight: the same iron grip on the basic tempo makes that climax blossom instead of erupting with lightning and thunderbolts from the timpani. In a sense it's a bit disappointing, but what comes after is the most magical coda Ive heard on record. Similarly, the big orchestral crescendo-decrescendo that immediately precedes the coda of I is jaw-dropping in its collected intensity and beauty of execution. I mentioned the control over dynamics: this is an unusually undramatic account in terms of sound level: I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Bruckner's markings have been more closely followed here than in most other interpretations. A lot of the time the playing is between pp and mf. The few real climaxes are suitably brilliant and expansive.
The scherzo I found a bit tame, with an overly dreamy trio. The Finale is where Nézet-Séguin changes the perspective by adopting a swift basic tempo. The bold brass pronouncements are superb, and here the conductor's control achieves magic: the ensuing pauses' length exactly match the sound decay of the hall (an effect that was ruined in the Wand-Lübeck 9th, with musical phrases overlapping on the decay of the preceding ones). Things noticeably liven up in the coda, where a rush of adrenalin brings the movement to a triumphant E major close.
This is a live recording, but there's not a peep to be heard from the audience (only the booklet pictures let us know that the church was packed). I found the low winds a bit reticent (scherzo esp.), but there's a wealth of string details that stand like in no other recording I know (esp. violas in I an II). So altogether it doesn't replace my favourites (Blomstedt Dreden, Schuricht The Hague), but it comes right after those. Not bad for a 31 year old conductor and a 3rd tier orchestra.
- the Testament is a live recording, which in Klemperer's case often meant big tempo differences from contemporaneous studio efforts. OTOH these two issues seem to have relatively similar timings, so the live vs the studio may be somewhat faster, but not by much. and in the case of the slow movement, that faster tempo may be a mixed blessing.
How does it compare to the studio Kulbelik 3rd with the BRSO on Sony? I mean interpretively, not sonically, obviously.
I know the EMI studio one well, and although I find it imposing, it's never really won me over. I have never heard the Testament, but OTOH I have a Concertgebouw version from the same year, and that is one of the weirdest Bruckner performances I've heard.
I recently listened to this recording of Bruckner's 9th, and I have to say i am very impressed.
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51BGKTNBMRL._SS500_.jpg)
You like that recording? The SOBR Bruckner 3rd on SONY that is? It didn't bow me over as better than anything I have. But I have only listened to it once.
Well, if you find the Sony a mite broad, the Haitink VPO is even broader, isnt' it?
Personally I love this Kubelik studio 3 (and the 4th as well) and consider both crème de la crème recordings. Note that the Audite 3 is a bit faster, and faster still is that Concertgebouw version - although it seems to have a finale that is a full 2 minutes longer - I didn't find it slow at all, quite the contrary in fact, so it could well be a printing mistake (I'll check that out).
Yes, all of Wand's last Bruckner recordings with the BP are quite satisfying. Had he finished the entire cycle before his death, I am sure his would be the favorite cycle to recommend for many.
Re: the Haitink Vienna recording (1877 version): I love and admire it esp for the magnificent orchestral playing and deep affection evidently emanating from the podium. But it is broader than the Kubelik, so any impression of the latter being less fiery has nothing to do with tempi or timings. Personally I find it goes the other way around, but these are just personal impressions. If you like Haitink's way with the 3rd, do try the Concertgebouw recording: it's swifter, the orchestra is blunter, and the spurious scherzo codetta is judiciously omitted (Bruckner crossed it on one of his scores with the mention 'not to be printed').
Leipzig seems to be a great place for playing Bruckner. One of my favourite 6th is from there (Bongartz), and the Abendroth 8th is a classic. BTW there seems to be a bunch of Leipzig Radio symphony Orchestra recordings from before 1950, but it doesn't seem to exist anymore - unless its new name was changed to Mitteldeutscher Rundfunk, currently Leipzig's 'other' orchestra ??
That was never the plan. He didn't conduct the 1st and 2nd symphonies at all in his later years after the Cologne cycle, as he found the pieces to be problematic and "krank", especially the first symphony. While that word translates as "sick, disturbed", it doesn't really describe well in English what he meant. He meant that the music showed too much of that Bruckner was guided by the need to fulfill external expectations rather than following his own inner voice. So there would not have been new recordings of these pieces anyway. He did conduct and record the 3rd with the NDR, and the 6th was on the program and scheduled to be recorded in Berlin just 2-3 months before he died. So there would have been new recordings of 4-9 with the BP, but most likely no 3rd, and definitely no 1st and 2nd.
...the CD exists although I don't know on what label.
Last month his 9th was broadcasted on 3sat live from Cologne Cathedral. Did someone watch it? Sir Gilbert Levine conducted the WDR Symphony Orchestra, and it was a concert that I enjoyed very much! The next day I bought an old recording of it with the Columbia Orchestra and Bruno Walter, and though I also have one with Karajan and the Berliner, this one with old Bruno is very special. I love his lyrical interpretation. I'm a big fan of Walter! ;D
The original version was published by Alfred Orel in 1932, followed by Nowak. It was the conductor von Hausseger that played and recorded it for the first time in 1932.
If nothing else, it demonstrates that slower does not necessarily mean better.
and the 8th with PSNY
The Rögner 4th was on the menu this week. It's with the Berlin Radio SO and was recorded (splendidly) in 1984. This is a fast and very direct interpretation. At 58 minutes it is one of the quickest around. Timings are approx 15-14-11-18. Right from the beginning of I this scores by having the tremolo strings register with real weight and presence, even though the playing is suitably pp, not any louder than normal. Very good orchestral work. They're a size under the VPO-BPO-SKD or a few other heavyweights, but this band deosn't put a foot wrong and the conductor paces and balances everything brilliantly. One will notice how much the winds have to do (esp. in the quieter portions of the score). I don't think I've heard such felicitous wind balances before. The finale really jolts by starting at a militantly expecting pace rather than the funeral march one often hears. This is adrenalin-pumping stuff.
Definitely not an everyday version, but a refreshing, sometimes startlingly different reading. Available for a song on Berlin Classics. Nowak version, no cymbal crash in IV.
That's not the point, really. There's no need to pit A vs B etc. This is an endless and mindless game. It's different and stands on its own merits.
That's not the point, really. There's no need to pit A vs B etc. This is an endless and mindless game. It's different and stands on its own merits.
BTW, I detect 2 instances of outright (unconscious?) borrowing from the Bruckner 4th by Mahler: the timpani rythm at the end of the Andante is reproduced in the slow movement of Mahler's own first symphony, whereas the low strings rythm at the beginning of IV is exactly the same as the start of Mahler's 6th. there's no doubt Mahler knew the work inside out: he even produced his own (reorchestrated and truncated) version of it. It's been recorded by Rozhdestvensky.
Last month his 9th was broadcasted on 3sat live from Cologne Cathedral. Did someone watch it? Sir Gilbert Levine conducted the WDR Symphony Orchestra, and it was a concert that I enjoyed very much!
But I guess if Walter's ghost has been summoned from Hades to help your argument, there's nothing else to add. Too bad, it could have been an interesting discussion.
My only reservation would be if Berlin Classics once again used the damn Sonic Solutions NoNoise signal processing on these recordings, as they did on many of their releases.
Mahler himself was prone to self-quoting, so I don't think it's farfectched to detect influences in his music, esp. his earlier works (as is obviously the case with the Rott symphony - if that's not a blatant case of borrowing friom Mahler, I don't know what is).
In this view, I won't call them 'borrowings' from Mahler, although the 1st symphony's slow movement seems more prone to that decription than the other example I gave. The utter disparity of mood and language between 4:IV and 6:I is something that makes this quasi-common starting point all the more startling.
M, would you do the not-so-well-educated-in-music members like me a favor and sum up the similarities and differences of the two composers, Gustav and Anton? These are what I know now, please correct and add something if you will:
Mahler's music: Self-indulgent, emotional, direct, overwhelming, constantly-changing, complex, progressive, over the top.
Bruckner's music: Subtle, religious, spacious, broad, sacred, warm, lush, metallic (the German brass), impressionist, dissonant.
where did you hear those? (9th symphony aside of course)
I read those from a review of a recording of that symphony.
M, would you do the not-so-well-educated-in-music members like me a favor and sum up the similarities and differences of the two composers, Gustav and Anton? These are what I know now, please correct and add something if you will:
Mahler's music: Self-indulgent, emotional, direct, overwhelming, constantly-changing, complex, progressive, over the top.
Bruckner's music: Subtle, religious, spacious, broad, sacred, warm, lush, metallic (the German brass), impressionist, dissonant.
Interesting that you do not mention "religion" also in connection to Mahler. Both he and Schoenberg were drunk with religion!AGREED!!! :D if there ever was a man so fascinated with religion, that man is Mahler. let me quote Bruno Walter again" the difference between Mahler and Bruckner is, Bruckner has found God, while Mahler was searching for God throughout his life..".
M
This was linked on the Classical videos thread, Karajan with the Bruckner 9 scherzo- I remember you saying you hadn't heard him in it for a while: amazing power and excitement from absolute minimum of means; I don't really think this kind of musicianship is matched elsewhere.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO6HltIxevU
AGREED!!! :D if there ever was a man so fascinated with religion, that man is Mahler. let me quote Bruno Walter again" the difference between Mahler and Bruckner is, Bruckner has found God, while Mahler was searching for God throughout his life..".
M
This was linked on the Classical videos thread, Karajan with the Bruckner 9 scherzo- I remember you saying you hadn't heard him in it for a while: amazing power and excitement from absolute minimum of means; I don't really think this kind of musicianship is matched elsewhere.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO6HltIxevU
But thanks for linking to the clip, that is from the TV recording (it actually has the logo of the 2nd public German TV channel in the corner) of a concert in 1985 that I went to myself. If the camera panned up a little higher, you could actually see me, I sat right above the bass section. That video is available in Japan and I already have it on my wish list. There is also a concert video of the 9th with the WP from the late 70s which I have. Then there is a live video of the 8th with the WP from a concert, again in the 70s in St.Florian. The well known video of the 8th with the WP in the Musikvereinssaal (which is the same performance as the late DG recording of the 8th), BTW, is not a live performance, it is studio, they just filmed it that way to make it look like a concert.
Today, I found Harnoncourt's interpretation of Symphony No. 5 in a store, and since I want to compare a few performances of this symphony, I had to buy it. After I listen to it, I'll post my impressions of it and see how it compares to Jochum's interpretation.
Heather
In fact I cranked it up later to 78, and aside from raising the key, it was a great performance!
No to the above question, but I have never heard a decent Klemperer performance of Bruckner.
I once sat through his arthritic.......
No to the above question, but I have never heard a decent Klemperer performance of Bruckner.
Listened to this week: the First symphony, with the redoubtable Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchester under Vaclav Neumann. Although this is over 40 years old, it still holds up very well indeed as a sound experience.
Uploaded an out of print Helgoland
Thanks :-*
Demanding sob that I am, can't help but asking, would you happen to have the accompaning Liebesmahl?
Uploaded an out of print Helgoland performance by Wyn Morris and the Symphonica of London from CD on request.
Demanding sob that I am, can't help but asking, would you happen to have the accompaning Liebesmahl?
P.S.: Lethe, you wouldn't happen to have the original lp coupling, Wagner's Liebesmahl des Apostel ? ;D
Welcome, Marvin! You're in for an epochal journey. :D
TODAY, SEPTEMBER 22, 2007 I discovered Bruckner for the first time in my life. I will spend all of next week listening to Bruckner's symphonies.
I wish I started with the first ones. It'd probably have made my head fall off by the time I had reached the last few :D
Glad you chose the Jochum, and glad you didn't go for the best ones first, it will make listening through them all more rewarding.
Keep an ear open for No. 7, Marvin. My favourite of them all. ;)
Lethe, in all honesty, I did not know what to expect with Bruckner. So I figured start at the beginning, I did some minor reading and picked the first 2 symphonies Bruckner composed. I instantly loved what I was hearing, much like my first reaction to Wagner......this sort of thing does not happen very often and when it does its a real joy. Sadly with Mahler the initial reaction was not so pleasant.
marvin
Happy Brucknerosis to Marvinbrown!
A disease with no known cure!
Except maybe continuing the journey to Mahler and Schoenberg! :o
I first came upon Bruckner via the score of the Seventh Symphony and then Jochum's DGG recording.
Quite a spiritual experiment for our colleague Marvinbrown to follow the earliest study symphonies to the mighty Ninth! 0:)
Next Saturday there's an organ concert I could attend. On the program, a transcription of the third symphony. Has anyone ever heard such transcripts? I know there's a disc of it, which I've never seen. It seems to me that, of all the symphonies, the third might be the best suited for that kind of thing. The eight has been done (Rogg), but I don't like it. And of course, a recording can't compare to an organ concert in situ.
To throw a little change of topic in this thread, anyone have strong recording preferences for the String Quintet?
Thank you Cato. My order was dispatched today (First Class postage) and should arrive tomorrow. My plan is simple, one symphony every night after work starting chronologically 1 -> 9. When exploring new composers, I usually like to start at the beginning (Beethoven was an exception), I like to see (or hear) where the composer came from. I was surprised to read after hearing symphony no.00 "study symphony" that Bruckner was "plagued with doubt as to his own capabilities which came from his crtitics' harsh comments and friends who thought that they could help by changing the content of his works"- and they say a friend in need is a friend indeed!
These early symphonies are quite remarkable- filled with so much emotion- they certianly caught my attention.
marvin
I've not heard this recording yet, is it really that superior to other recordings of Bruckner's 8th?
Even the 1949 Furtwängler BPO exists in apparently similar versions, but the results are different enough to make one a firm recommendation (the March 15 performance), while the other is only half-baked (March 14).Not to mention the various pirate issues of March 14, which are actually a mixture of the two performances. Buyer beware!
Define SPMC please...
There are two recorded performances (That i know of). One by Johannes Wildner with NPW and the other by Kurt Eichhorn with BOL. Although they use the same score, the performance are very different. For instance, Wildner's finale lasted 23 minutes, while Eichhorn's lasted an amazing 30 minutes! Personally, I prefer the Wildner version, as for the completion. There were some less than spectacular moments in the finale, for instance; it felt as if traces of 8th symphony was "pasted" onto the score, and it had a few awkward timpani beats atypical to Bruckner's usual rhythms... These "deficiencies" however, did not effect the overall quality of the completion. The ending was convincingly "Brucknerian". Moreover, it is a fact that almost everything in SPMC were actually written by Bruckner himself.
Does anyone like this finale? What do you guys think about it?
I haven't heard the Eichhorn version. Compared to the abysmal Talmi recording, the Wildner is excellent. I was also positively surprised by the first three movements and the orchestral execution generally. Do you have the Harnoncourt performance of the fragments with his lecture? The version Talmi recorded seemed to have made every (mis)"correction" and mistake that Harnoncourt complains of in his lecture. The Wildner, by contrast seems to contain all of the original material that Harnoncourt performs in his lecture. The rest (which includes some transitions mostly) is of course made up. But the Wildner version is the most convincing completion I have heard so far. I guess we will never know what the final fugue on key themes from his major symphonies was really supposed to sound like.
Yes, I have the Harnoncourt one, but his version is not really a "performing" version. He just played the fragments (with added commentary). Comprehensive though they were, the music is still unfinished.
Although a work with many fine passages, and a great deal of internal consistency, the sixth has always been regarded as somewhat imperfect; as Bruckner specialist Georg Tintner put it, it consists of "three perfect movements, and one [the finale] that is somewhat problematic."
it is distinguished by richly varied orchestration and hugely contrasted thematic ideas. The opening movement begins with an urgent rhythmic ostinato played by the violins [I liken this rythmic figure to a morse code message]; The opening ostinato figure returns frequently and unaltered as the movement progresses, and becomes especially potent at the climax of the development section. During the coda, trumpets and horns challenge each other antiphonally, as if sounding across vast distances of time and space.
The Adagio which follows is Bruckner's only symphonic slow movement in conventional sonata form [I love that one above all other Bruckner slow movements]. The hymn-like F major opening theme suggests reverential awe in an elegiac string threnody, over which the oboe responds plaintively. A second theme lightens the texture, with a richly-hued episode for strings, but particularly impressive is the extended and yearning coda, after the manner of a funeral march [NB : personally I see this as a distinct theme, but it does immediately follow the second one] .
The scherzo is perhaps the most fantastical of any to be found among Bruckner's nine symphonies; whereas others are bucolic and rustic in mood, this is demonic and threatening, its fearsome tensions only assuaged during the more relaxed trio section.
The finale presents an austere, purposeful idea for the violins, on which the second clarinet comments; a contrasting lyrical melody follows. The music progresses in urgent style. When the long-awaited resolution arrives, Bruckner brings back the ostinato rhythm heard at the start of the symphony, along with its main first subject idea, now played by three trombones.
I’ve gone through all my personal recordings of the 6th symphony
I'd have to check where I got that Bernstein link. If it's still in my Outlook I can get it easily here. If it's on my hard disc only that means I 'd have to upload it. Now, that's something entirely different for me: I've never done it before!!
http://www.mediafire.com/?0vvyamn3zzm
http://www.mediafire.com/?co3cvxy42yr
http://www.mediafire.com/?dy5ywym3h2h
http://www.mediafire.com/?0ovb0cywlx3
(crossing fingers) Tell me if it works ...
Of those I wish I could hear are the various Blomstedts and Wands
Anyone here listened to Dohnanyi's Bruckner? Hurwitz gave him high marks, what do you guys think?
Anyone here listened to Dohnanyi's Bruckner? Hurwitz gave him high marks, what do you guys think?
Anyone here listened to Dohnanyi's Bruckner? Hurwitz gave him high marks, what do you guys think?
Interesting discussion in the Melodya Madness thread about various orchestral sound cultures in Bruckner. Obviously this centered around Melodia issues (Mrawinsky's in particular).
John Berky is making available downloads from his private collection and features them as RECORDING OF THE MONTH (http://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/downloadfile/) on his web site. And guess what? For his first offering, he gives us the 4th symphony in a Melodya issue from 1978: Emil Tchakarov conducting the Leningrad Philharmonic Orchestra. ;D
And I'll be eagerly listening! :D
Hmm, that's an amazingly good thing for him to do - although it's totally unneccessary that he pays for the bandwidth (I imagine after a while the series will become rather popular) with so many free hosts around, hehe...
Oh, btw, i recently acquired a broadcast of Nagano's Bruckner's 6th symphony with DSOB, it's actually a different performance from the harmonia mundi release, i'll upload it if anyone is interested.
I advised him to upload everything on Mediafire.com, but he believed that they(files) won't stay up very long ???.
That's not true, they stay up "indefinitely" according to Mediafire. I've had some stuff up over 3 months and they still download.
How is the performance? If it's good, I'm interested. :)
It's Kent Nagano, what do you think? ???
Actually, I don't know what to think. I've only heard his Bruckner 8 referenced above, and it was a while back. I remember it sounding kind of odd. Are you implying that it his Bruckner 6 is not any good? ???
I am implying that getting Nagano's 6th is a no-brainer. I haven't heard his 8th (the broadcast?) and 3rd, but you should pay attention to his 6th. He is probably one of the better Bruckner conductors out there, but, then that's just my opinion, you don't have to listen to me.
I have never heard his Harmonia Mundi release of the 6th, but the broadcast recording that i found is around the same period, so i don't suppose there is huge difference between the two.
Ah, thank you for the explanation. I'm interested in listening to it if you would be so kind as to upload it for us. ;D
I will hear him do the 4th live with the CSO on Saturday. Will report.
My thoughts on Dohnanyi's Bruckner 4 with the CSO here (http://tonicblotter.blogspot.com/2007/11/pope-does-bruckner.html).
And reminds me that I haven't heard any live Bruckner in quite awhile.
The 'little orchestra that could' will be doing the 9th this season:
Toeldo Symphony at Rosary Cathedral (http://www.toledosymphony.com/performances/special/rosarycathedral.html)
Allan
The 'little orchestra that could' will be doing the 9th this season:
Toledo Symphony at Rosary Cathedral (http://www.toledosymphony.com/performances/special/rosarycathedral.html)
Allan
You must be thrilled! :D Is that cathedral a "plus," acoustically, for this piece? Sounds like it could be...
--Bruce
Acoustically, yes, the other-worldly echoing is enormous at times, although it helps to sit up front to get the full impact of the full orchestra.
sure, i'll upload it soon.
is Keilberth's Bruckner 6th with BP out of print or something? I can't find it anywhere!
is Keilberth's Bruckner 6th with BP out of print or something? I can't find it anywhere!
Yes, it's out of print, same as his 9th with Hamburg State Orchestra, both last seen on Japanese Teldec.
His Köln 8th is just being released though
(http://www.orfeo-international.de/covers/18592g.jpg)
Hello Bruckner fans, I disappeared for a while after I acquired my complete Bruckner Symphony set (Jochum-on DG). I wanted to spend some time getting to know these symphonies well before I reported back. I heard the complete symphony cycle once, put it aside and came back to it a few weeks later and relistened to all of them once again. I am now on my 3rd time. I am stunned at the sound that man creates, his symphonies appear to be composed of "blocks" of emotionally filled musical expressions that sweep the listener away. My most favorite symphony of them all so far is the 5th, the adagio of the 5th symphony is to die for. I kept replaying that adagio over and over again. The 7th was my next favorite symphony- I like the contrast in style represented here- it has beautiful spiritual moments and playful moments as well. On the other hand I ran into a problem with the 9th, couldn't quite grasp what Bruckner was trying to "represent" with that sudden eruption of horns or trumpets midway through the symphony, somebody please correct me here. I am going to have to revisit the 9th again. Symphonies 3 "dedicated to Wagner" and 4 "romantic" also had breathtaking music. Symphonies 1 and 2 were not as captivating on 2nd hearing as the rest, and I think at this point I prefer the "Nullte" over the 1st symphony. I am not sure how many of you would agree with me on this one.
Anyway just wanted to report back as I am a relative newbie to this composer and I am sure my appreciation of his works will grow in time.
marvin
There are the important 9ths that everyone should have.
...
Nice, but you're missing these:
Nice, but you're missing these:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XBFD0C7TL._AA240_.jpg)
I've seen dead people more bewegt and lebhaft than that scherzo and before that trio mistakenly believed to know the meaning of word schnell in German.
Barenboim? i have never heard the CSO one, how is it?
I generally stay away from Furtwangler, but if the sound quality is good, i might consider it
DVD? I might not buy it, too pricey for me, but i'll try to borrow it from my library.
good for you! You can't go wrong with Jochum, but personally I prefer the EMI cycle. I mean, you really haven't heard the 9th until you have listened to the one on EMI.
You troubles with the 9th may have something to do with the recording, i didn't like the overall recording quality of the DG cycle. I would suggest that for the symphonies that you did not enjoy, try other alternatives.
There are the important 9ths that everyone should have.
(http://wa000119.host.inode.at/images/multishop/prod488_2.jpg)
Giulini's 9th with WP - absolutely amazing performance, perfection in just about every category. Words are powerless to describe this performance, because you need to hear it in order to feel its power.
(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/9243149.jpg)
J.Wildner's 9th on Naxos. This performance is "special" in that it actually has the newest (at the time) completion of the 4th movemnet of the 9th. So, finally you can hear the conclusion of the 9th the way Bruckner intended.
(http://images.barnesandnoble.com/images/9720000/9729302.jpg)
Eugen Jochum's 9th on EMI.
Thanks for the suggestion. The 9th gave me the most trouble and I will look into sampling other recordings to see if the response is better. The EMI recording now is a bit late in the game for me I certainly won't want another complete cycle by the same conductor. I will have to find individual recordings on the 9th as recommended by yourself and other Bruckner experts here.
The Jochum/Dresden/EMI 9th is available paired with the 8th on a cheap twofer thus:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41JCMZHVNBL._AA240_.jpg)
It also was once available on an even cheaper Seraphim twofer paired with the 4th.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41SQNZ7ZPEL._AA240_.jpg)
I've seen dead people...
That's a remarkable gift, Drasko.
Sarge
Bogey was kind enough to refer me to this thread ...
Can somebody explain this Bruckner piece to me?? A hour of movie theme music ???
Self-quote: "In general my Bruckner appreciation effort have been thwarted by his music".
Bogey was kind enough to refer me to this thread ...
Can somebody explain this Bruckner piece to me?? A hour of movie theme music ???
Self-quote: "In general my Bruckner appreciation effort have been thwarted by his music".
Thanks for your comments, Lethe, and I will continue to listen to Bruckner for time to time.
I'm hampered by any technical understanding of music, so generally need to have the structural aspects, as well as the "deep influences", pointed out to me -- this is why I asked to have the 9th explained to me. I general, I admit, I'm not a lover of Romantic music. Schubert, a great genius, IMO for what that's worth, is an exception, and there are few others such as Dvorak.
i am not sure i understand what you are asking? please explain why you feel it is 'a hour of movie theme music"
I presume the Harnoncourt booklet is less useful?
Actually, in his lecture on the last movement on the second CD Harnoncourt goes through some basic aspects of Brucknerian structure that I found quite helpful and intelligent.
This could have influenced Bruckner's overall style, and specifically the more literal repetition of the scherzos (which he also tended to base on folk tunes, which by their nature were simpler and less-developed than classical forms). The adagios sound further more repetitive after the scherzo (which is the movement order in the 8th and 9th - it was reversed in earlier symphonies), but the seemingly repetitive themes are modified and placed in different contexts much more than in the more literal repetition of the scherzos.
The 9th is possibly the worst example of this type of folk-based scherzo theme though, as it is has a unique position in his work - no other movement written by him is so relentlessly dark and oppressive. It also shows him at his most innovative. His scherzos are certainly a lot different from Dvořák's 7th, which isn't repetitive at all, it's a more nimble and constantly unfolding tune.
The first movements of Bruckner symphonies tend to be highlights, and I sometimes get the feeling that he struggled to match the first movement of some pieces with a final movement that is just as engaging. But due to the craftsman he is, his final movements never get boring. They always adhere to the sonata form (albeit in much modified/extended guise) of introducing a theme, a second theme, development and a coda.
while the 7th begins in a more direct manner, with a very memorable few notes played by the strings, before organically building to a series of themes that will be played throughout the movement.
The 9th in its three movement state is emotionally very deceptive, as Bruckner intended the 9th to end with a 4th movement which would re-balance the symphony, which in its first 3 movements could seem extremely dark. In its current state, the adagio ends with a swelling dissonant climax which falters into a whisper, followed by a devastating silence, making the work appear enormously tragic.
But his intention must've been to counter this with a far more upbeat introduction to the final movement (as-per his usual format) before moving into his planned grand summary of his work, including a large fugue.
Just a few nits.
Is that the case? In most cases, Bruckner reverts to LvB 9th's model of reintroducing thematic material from the prior movements in the finale. E.g. 5th. Also e.g., the first climax of the finale of the 4th occurs when the main theme of the first movement is reintroduced. It is not really a "standard practice" model he is using in sofar as the LvB 9th that he is using as a model broke so many standards itself.
The opening theme is played by cellos plus solo horn, not the rest of the strings. But that movement is actually one of his most economical. There is little else beyond variations, fragmentations and inversions of the initial theme from which this movement is constructed.
Perfect :) I don't own the CD myself, but heard good things about his lecture from M.
Also a very interesting excerpt, Cato, and a link I, at least, will certainly investigate later. Thank you!
I would be curious to know if anyone here has any recommendations on a good collection of Bruckner's organ works. Thanks in advance.
Brucknerians, rejoice!
Rolf von Otter is offering the van Otterloo 7th on his site
http://homepages.ipact.nl/~otterhouse/
van Otterloo was a fiery conductor as feared by the players as Rodzinski and Szell were. And he was much the same kind of musician. This is from a long OOP lp:
23-26/10/54 Epic LP SC 6006 64:00 18:07 24:46 9:42 11:05
There's another Otterloo 7th on Operashare too, if interested:
1. Bartok. violin concerto nr. 2.
Radio Filharmonisch Orkest o.l.v. Willem van Otterlo.
Henryk Szering, violin.
25-6-1962 Concertgebouw Amsterdam.
2. Bruckner. Symphony nr. 7 in E. Radio Filharmonisch Orkest o.l.v.
Willem van Otterloo. 2-4-1958.
http://rapidshare.com/files/72836811/otterloo-live2a.zip
http://rapidshare.com/files/72836924/otterloo-live2b.zip
http://rapidshare.com/files/72836885/otterloo-live2c.zip
Here is a nice live recording of Bruckner's 5th symphony with the Münchner Philharmoniker conducted by Sergiu Celibidache from the inaugural concert of the Philharmonie am Gasteig on November 10, 1985.
I think this live recording, although the sound has some limitations, reflects much better than many of the recordings published by EMI what the MP under Celibidache really sounded like. Many of these were obviously recorded with a lot of spot mics, probably in an attempt to cope with the halls problematic acoustics, but resulting in breaking up the very round and blended sound Celibidache achieved. He rarely ever allowed the brass to play "brassy" and stick out of the textures.
This recording gives you a much better idea of what that sounded like.
1st movement
http://preview.tinyurl.com/yskwuu
2nd movement
http://preview.tinyurl.com/22yhqt
3rd movement
http://preview.tinyurl.com/24n2ew
4th movement, part 1
http://preview.tinyurl.com/296n4y
4th movement, part 2
http://preview.tinyurl.com/yrk8ky
Parts 1 and 2 of the 4th movement have to be joined with HJSplit! (http://www.freebyte.com/hjsplit/)
Thanks for posting that performance, M. :)
I've recently started working my way through Barenboim's Berlin set. Anyone have thoughts on that one?
I'd love to hear your thoughts as well, when you are ready J, as I sure love Barenboim's Beethoven symphonies.
Here is a nice live recording of Bruckner's 5th symphony with the Münchner Philharmoniker conducted by Sergiu Celibidache from the inaugural concert of the Philharmonie am Gasteig on November 10, 1985.
And Happy New Year to you too! :D
I did listen to the Wislocki 4th a few months ago - but truth to telll, I didn't find it better than average. Please don't ask me for more: that was a one shot deal, so I'd have to give it more airing time. I do recall finding the strings to be somewhat meager-sounding, but it could be just a matter of control setting (Bruckner willl not settle for anything less than full blast ;D). I'll eventually get back to it in due time.
Speaking of Polish conductors, I've found Skowaczewski's readings more reliable and interesting than those of the other super budget versions by Tintner. Strange as it may seem, I still hold Skrowaczewski as the best interpreter of the Chopin PC 1. This has been dismissed as unoriginal and unchallenging stuff, but after hearing dozens of versions, it still holds the prize for best ever - and that's not even counting Rubinstein's peerless solo work 0:).
what do you think about Kempe's 4th with MP (the 1972 one) and Barenboim's 4th with CSO?
(not that i am recommending these two recordings, i just wand your honest opinion, if you have heard of them)
If your library has it available, I would recommend the "Essence of Bruckner" book by Robert Simpson. It is considered definitive enough to probably be available from any library in any English-speaking country (although I am unsure whether in a country as large as the US or Canada, they can get books from other libraries for you like in the UK). Some CD booklet notes are very useful. The Solti/Decca cycle, for example, while not being particularly recommendable on musical terms (I bought it cheaply, fully aware of this) has a good overview of his style and use of architecture in his works - I presume the Harnoncourt booklet is less useful?
. . . .
The 9th in its three movement state is emotionally very deceptive, as Bruckner intended the 9th to end with a 4th movement which would re-balance the symphony, which in its first 3 movements could seem extremely dark. In its current state, the adagio ends with a swelling dissonant climax which falters into a whisper, followed by a devastating silence, making the work appear enormously tragic. But his intention must've been to counter this with a far more upbeat introduction to the final movement (as-per his usual format) before moving into his planned grand summary of his work, including a large fugue.
We thank the Member for all the valuable information in his message. We are particularly struck by his reference to the projected finale to the Ninth Symphony. According to Cooke and Nowak in Grove, there exist "some two hundred pages of sketches" for this movement, upon which the composer was working up to and including the day of his death on the eleventh of October 1896.
What we would now like to ask is, has any one seen these sketches - in either the published or unpublished forms? The sketch material bears the WAB [Werkverzeichnis Anton Bruckners] number 143, and volume nine of the Sämtliche Werke (edited by Orel in 1934) is said to reproduce at least some part thereof. But in what form, and where is the original material kept? We (who admire Bruckner's music greatly) are in fact suddenly tempted to have a go at writing a suitably grand fugal finale ourselves - merely for our own amusement of course, at least initially.
I did listen to the Wislocki 4th a few months ago - but truth to telll, I didn't find it better than average. Please don't ask me for more: that was a one shot deal, so I'd have to give it more airing time. I do recall finding the strings to be somewhat meager-sounding, but it could be just a matter of control setting (Bruckner willl not settle for anything less than full blast ;D). I'll eventually get back to it in due time.
What we would now like to ask is, has any one seen these sketches - in either the published or unpublished forms?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41XKPXYTPNL._AA240_.jpg)
It's fleshed out from Bruckner's sketches, obviously, but from what I can tell from the liner notes there was a considerable amount of material to work from, and they seem to have taken great care with it.
Despite the advocacy of people like Harnoncourt, and after reading a whole book devoted to the unfinished Finale (Heinz-Klaus Metzger, Rainer Riehn: Bruckners Neunte im Fegefeuer der Rezeption, 2003, text + kritk, München), I still miss Bruckner's spirit in the performing versions that are now available. The music doesn't take flight. You hear all the well-known Brucknerian noises, but they don't have that 'lift'.
Query, though, how much of that is due to conductors' and orchestras' unfamiliarity with the final movement. E.g. in the Harnoncourt recording, the VPO's playing of the first three movements is leagues better than their tentative baby steps in the excerpts of the finale. The Wildner has the most recent completion and is to my ears the most compelling realization of the finale. As more original excerpts are discovered and as the completion is further fine tuned and as more orchestras and conductors become familiar with the work, hopefully we will get to hear more convincing performances as well.
I know exactly what you mean. You sometimes have to listen through a performance to get a sense of the real power of the music. But for me that's not the case here, I'm afraid - I think the musical ideas in the Finale aren't, for whatever reason, among Bruckner's most inspired. I wanted to like the Finale so badly, I love Bruckner. But I feel I'm only getting a glimpse of what could have been. Even with a weak Bruckner performance, you feel that there is more than orchestra and conductor can give you. Not so here. I don't think even the best Bruckner conductor could make the Finale an overwhelming experience. (Whereas Mahler's Tenth never fails to move me.)
I don't know about that. Have you actually heard the Wildner? The Harnoncourt certainly feels like an aimless sightreading exercise. The Wildner is considerably better. (Talmi can be binned since the completion miscorrects some of Bruckner's original writing.) I do like at least the original parts of the piece. The beginning of the finale, in particular, I think is marvellous. I had often wondered what Bruckner could possibly say next after that sublime Adagio has melted away into the ether. But the way he starts the finale out of that same nothingness into which the Adagio disappeared is brilliant, IMHO.
Query, though, how much of that is due to conductors' and orchestras' unfamiliarity with the final movement. E.g. in the Harnoncourt recording, the VPO's playing of the first three movements is leagues better than their tentative baby steps in the excerpts of the finale. The Wildner has the most recent completion and is to my ears the most compelling realization of the finale. As more original excerpts are discovered and as the completion is further fine tuned and as more orchestras and conductors become familiar with the work, hopefully we will get to hear more convincing performances as well.
Actually, the recordings that used the most recent completion are Marcus Bosch's 9th with Aachen and Daniel Harding with Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra.
Didn't know those existed! Where might one find these? My mom played as a sub in the first violins in the Bosch/Aachen performance.
It's quite easy to find Bosch's performance, you can buy it from jpc. If you are in america, it hasn't been released yet, but it will be soon. Just a few weeks ago, Berky offered one on his website, but now it's gone.
Thanks. Found it. Have you heard either one of the two? How does Bosch compare to Harding?
Didn't know those existed! Where might one find these?
Query, though, how much of that is due to conductors' and orchestras' unfamiliarity with the final movement. E.g. in the Harnoncourt recording, the VPO's playing of the first three movements is leagues better than their tentative baby steps in the excerpts of the finale.
I think the musical ideas in the Finale aren't, for whatever reason, among Bruckner's most inspired.
The sound in Bosch is sometimes a little too reverberant for me, I don't know where they record it (in a church maybe?).
Nonsense. The playing is very assured, technical on a high level and stylistically spot on and balances and phrasing are obviously meticulously rehearsed. Once again, you mistake your emotional reaction to the music - which indeed leaves the listener "hanging" quite a bit since it is, well, fragments, not a complete and coherent musical structure - with the actual playing of it.
If you're curious, here's a fairly cheap way to check out the projected finale:(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41XKPXYTPNL._AA240_.jpg)
It's fleshed out from Bruckner's sketches, obviously, but from what I can tell from the liner notes there was a considerable amount of material to work from, and they seem to have taken great care with it. The finale is the only reason I'd draw this CD to your attention, though -- overall this is a decent but not great 9th; it's a bit slow (which isn't necessarily a problem) but it also lacks drive and excitement IMO. It all just feels a bit slack.
The first three sound like a comfortable, worn in piece of clothing. The performers know where they are going and know what risks they can afford to take. They are thoroughly at home at every turn. That is simply not the case in the playing in the finale excerpts. The dynamic range is more limited and the playing is much more on the "safe" side. The phrasing is comparatively stiff. The first three movements are standard repertoire and the fourth is uncharted territory and it shows. You might argue that this is due to the fact that they are just playing excerpts for illustration purposes. But there are some quite sizeable stretches of music that could have been played with more conviction, more interpretive cohesion and generally more assured ensemble work.
It is indeed strikingly modern sounding, but I wonder how much of that impression is borne of the almost disjointed assemblage of rather angular thematic material.
From that quasi disintegration to the bold, gaunt and seemingly inconclusive finale, there seems to be some kind of progression toward a more abstract musical language. But that could also be an effect of the intervening years: musical advances could have mingled with declining mental powers and advancing illness.
There is a very interesting (and lengthy) essay on the finale here (http://www.abruckner.com/Data/documents/bruckner_symphony_9_finale_vdw.pdf). After having read it I am still not convinced.
A lot of the ardent advocacy reads like it's from someone who'd do anything to sell his argument. That automatically makes me raise my guards, so in the end the argument comes down to this: if one believes Bruckner would have indeed completed his finale had he lived longer (and unlike Schubert he never abandoned work on one of his works before), then one should be prepared to reassess the 9th altogether, keeping in mind that the finale will always be conjectural.
I promise to give the Wildner another spin tomorrow. And then I'll report back.
Been giving the Harding version of the latest completion a couple of listens.
I find this really frustrating: no, it's not particularly convincing as a completion but damn, some of the musical ideas are wonderful, pushing the boundaries even further than the first three movements did. I hadn't previously heard the sketches in any form and had had no idea how the a finale could possibly have worked after that Adagio: now I at least think I know.
Can you give examples for that? In the first section (track 2), the only insecure moment...
But that is the nature of what we have here - musical fragments, not of he composition as far as we can tell.
No, I can't. I wasn't speaking of "insecurity", I was speaking of comfort and familiarity. The excerpts just don't flow as naturally as the prior three movements.
I KNOW THEY ARE FRAGMENTS!
All I am saying is that even as fragments they could have been played with more conviction and flow
Oh, good. ;)
I am beginning to think we are actually talking about different recordings here. I have a hard time imagining this to be played with more "conviction", seein how the strings dig in in the first tutti entries, the fugato sections, how the whole orchestra comes crashing in with full force in the first tutti, and how well everything is phrased. I don't see any want of flow there either, especially in critical transitions. For instance, the transition from the first to the second group and the way these dotted string figures float in is masterfully handled. To clear this up, which recording were you talking about all the time?
I meant this one here:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NKcGvBunL._AA240_.jpg)
You know very well that I meant that same recording. No go compare to the Wildner. I found his flow more convincing.
Again, I might remind you that we started off with this nonsensical tangent because you took my comments way too extremely, while I merely was suggesting that the Wildner recording provides a better overall picture of the last movement.
I have a hard time imagining this to be played with more "conviction", seein how the strings dig in in the first tutti entries, the fugato sections, how the whole orchestra comes crashing in with full force in the first tutti, and how well everything is phrased. I don't see any want of flow there either, especially in critical transitions. For instance, the transition from the first to the second group and the way these dotted string figures float in is masterfully handled.
But the internal context, the way they move from one group of ideas to the next, makes a whole lot of musical sense. Again best heard in track 2. I am pretty sure you understand that the careful way the movement begins is defined by the nature of the material which appears from nowhere. But the buildups to the first tutti entries and the ebb and flow between them are very organical. Same about the transition to the second theme group. I particularly like how those dotted motifs in the violins appear to float in from a differen space. The buildup to and the way they play the grand choral like theme around 6'00 is just magnificent. I can't imagine a better advocacy for these musical fragments at this point.
Can you give examples for that? In the first section (track 2), the only insecure moment I hear is the very first entry of the strings. In fact, the force and determination with which the first tutti entries, especially the motif at 1'45 come crashing in totally startled me when I first heard it. It is also ideally prepared in the context when the the build-up towards it starts to fade away a little, suggesting that there will be no tutti entry after all, and then it suddenly comes anyway (I think Bruckner wrote that rather cleverly). I hear no indecisive or uneasy playing in general later either, no "are we playing here?" or "oops, how does this go?" moments, although there may be some which I don't recall right now. The general impression I had after listening to it several times was the exact opposite. Some of the playing, like the strings totally digging in in the fugato sections with sometimes pretty noisy attacks, I actually almost found a little too "emphatical" The internal musical development and context in those sections and passages that are largely intact makes sense to me to, like the way transitions or build-ups are handled. So what you are saying does not make sense to me at all. There is no "baby-stepping" going on here. The very ending of the excerpts is extremly confident and points to more coming after that - but there isn't.
You know very well that I meant that same recording. No go compare to the Wildner. I found his flow more convincing.
No, I just want to actuallly *discuss* music and interpretations. Instead of making blanket statements without backing them up or illustrating how one has arrived at that conclusion, I want to discuss the interpretation with some kind of musical argumentation referring to specific points or examples, like I provided here:
I don't have that. Can you upload the finale somewhere for the sake of comparison?
If you mess around with Harnoncourt, M forever will hunt you down. Don't you know that?
Great! Give yourself a big pat on your back for meeting your own criteria.
Then why were you arguing with me when you can't even make the comparison? That's all my post was about.
E.g. in the Harnoncourt recording, the VPO's playing of the first three movements is leagues better than their tentative baby steps in the excerpts of the finale.
You sometimes meet these criteria, too! Yes, sometimes you make interesting musical observations and back up your arguments with examples. That's not a bad thing, really. Except here, you totally lost the argument. Not my fault though. I usually only make dramatic statements when I can defend them afterwards.
You still haven't illustrated that statement with specific examples. I did assume though that that statement was because your reaction was more an emotional reaction to the fragmentary nature of the presentation than the actual playing, and that you couldn't separate that (which I know you often can't, remember when you - wrongly - heard "out of tune" and "not together" playing in the IPO recording of the 8th when you had to illustrate why you thought the orchestral playing was "bad"? But it was in fact your negative emotional reaction to Mehta's - admittedly not very interesting - interpretation than a fair assessment of the orchestral playing quality.).
My dearest, you don't even know what emotions are. Please stop using the word. Some of us have lives and work and things like that and are not sufficiently geeky to actually waste the time to pick out excerpts from recordings they have listened to a year ago just to prove a meaningless point to someone they don't even know personally on a web forum.
PS: A dissonant passage can still be played in tune or out of tune (Boulez can tell you, if you don't believe me).
That just sometimes happens when people like to make dramatic statements which they can't back up with arguments then. Sorry, but again, not my fault ;)
Really? Wow. What a deep insight. ::) *Anything* can be in tune or out of tune. But in a given musical situation and intonation system, what is in or out of tune is pretty much objective. You could simply have said "this is too sharp" or "this is too flat" (or both, after all, several people playing together can be off in various directions). But you couldn't do that.
So, why all this fuss instead of just pointing to a few places in the recording we talked about to illustrate your views?
Actually, I really am right now. There isn't really that much that interests me to do around here, as "nice" as it is. I am actually in the middle of finalizing negotiations for a job which would take me to Boston, MA. Hopefully, there is more action there. If I do move, I will probably uhaul myself and my stuff across the entire US. Mapquest says the shortest route takes me up to Chicago and then East. But isn't the weather in the Midwest totally horrible right now, with lots of ice and bad street conditions?
Very true. To bring this back on topic, can anyone think of any really good BSO Bruckner recordings? I can't, right now. I wonder why that is.
Under whom? Koussevitzky, Monteux, Munch, Leinsdorf, Steinberg, Ozawa & Levine, none of them I readily associate with Bruckner (with admittedly little knowledge on Leinsdorf and Steinberg). Such a long line of non-Bruckner inclined MDs has to be at least part of the answer.
Berky's discography shows what looks like only 2 commercial recordings and maybe dozen broadcasts in total.
Very nice 8th under Tennstedt was floating around (Tanglewood broadcast), other than that I can't remember hearing any at all.
Very nice 8th under Tennstedt was floating around (Tanglewood broadcast), other than that I can't remember hearing any at all.
Actually, I really am right now. There isn't really that much that interests me to do around here, as "nice" as it is. I am actually in the middle of finalizing negotiations for a job which would take me to Boston, MA. Hopefully, there is more action there. If I do move, I will probably uhaul myself and my stuff across the entire US. Mapquest says the shortest route takes me up to Chicago and then East. But isn't the weather in the Midwest totally horrible right now, with lots of ice and bad street conditions?
The Tennstedt BSO 8 is magnificent. I recall a broadcast of the same symphony under Kubelik that blew me out of my seat - well, not quite: I was driving ;DWas this Kubelik with the BSO or another orchestra? I see there's a live Kubelik 8th on Orfeo: given how fine the 9th is I suspect it's only a matter of time before I acquire it.
Was this Kubelik with the BSO or another orchestra? I see there's a live Kubelik 8th on Orfeo: given how fine the 9th is I suspect it's only a matter of time before I acquire it.
Methinks you're confusing BSO (Boston) with BRSO (Munich).No, I know what orchestra is on the Orfeo ones: I was wondering which orchestra was playing in the Kubelik 8th Lilas was mentioning hearing on the radio.
No, I know what orchestra is on the Orfeo ones: I was wondering which orchestra was playing in the Kubelik 8th Lilas was mentioning hearing on the radio.
And here is the Scherzo from a concert given at the Suntory Hall, Toyko, 22 Oct 86, on the Altus label.
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/gm2/Bruck5Celi.jpg)
Ripped and posted so that a sound quality comparison can be made:
http://rapidshare.de/files/38164406/bruckner5-scherzo.mp3.html
Sarge
Was this Kubelik with the BSO or another orchestra? I see there's a live Kubelik 8th on Orfeo: given how fine the 9th is I suspect it's only a matter of time before I acquire it.
I only listened to the last movement, not the first three. The first three mya be atrocious, I don't know.
Without the score it's hard to say what are wrong notes and what are intentional dissonances. As you recall, Harnoncourt's lecture mentions that many dissonances in the original were mis-corrected in previous editions of the completion of the finale.
What I meant is that there are a number of places where the strings are confused and you can clearly hear that part of one section plays wrong notes. I don't mean divisi sections either, just obvious confusedness with people contributing wrong notes to the section (not to even speak of bad intonation) effort.
Thought # 1: Bruckner disavowed and never came back to this so-called "study symphony".
Thought # 2: Would he have wanted his work in progress on the 9th's finale to be immortalized in its obviously incomplete state?
Thought # 3: I just don't know what to think of the whole thing in terms of musical ethics.
Looks like someone knocked the naughty bits off!
Those 'bits' are superfluous when you're supporting the whole universe in eternity.
I could understand some enthusiast casting a duplicate and attempting to carve it into a michelangesque lookalike. And then another enthusiast would jump into the fray and say, "no, no, no, you got it wrong. Let me show you how it should go" :D
I had my first Bruckner experience a few weeks ago with his 9th (Skrowaczewski/Minnesota Orchestra). Such a majestic, intense work; exactly my cup of tea, and, with that particular recording, i cant ask for more.
Next one will be the 8th. What can i expect from it, especially from it's adagio?
Glad you liked the 9th, Varg. You should also check out the more "mainstream" recordings, such as Giulini/VPO, Wand/BPO or NDRSO, Celibidache/MPO etc.
As for the 8th's adagio, I have only one word to describe it: heavenly. Wisely choose a recording. Karajan/WPO on DG is probably the most well known and highly regarded, and deservedly so. The finale (especially the coda) is awe-inspiring...just pay attention to the build-up of tension and sudden parallel key modulation at the coda. It's magical.
Welcome to the religion of Anton Bruckner! :)
[OT. Just a question: M forever = M für immer?]
M für immer is the forum name of another member!! ;D
Sounds pretty alike, eh?!
Now that i think about it, it could be a (german?) translation of M forever. Maybe they're old pals or something!
maybe I should become Tojours M to add to the confusion.
[OT. Just a question: M forever = M für immer?]
I am a little shocked that you confuse me with that little idiot who thiks it's funny to mock some other member's forum name. The completely different quality of the content of the posts should have made it obvious to you that these are two different posters. BTW, "M für immer" is not the correct translation of my member name into German.
I wasn't offended. I am not easily offended anyway. I will tell you in a PM how that is properly translated. "M für immer" as a name does not make sense in German.
What do think of Karajan in is one?
I'm looking for this set, but i cant find it anywhere except on amazon, and since i dont have a credit card, that's not an option. Anyone knows where i can find it?
I think you mean Luebeck. As in this (http://www.amazon.com/Anton-Bruckner-Symphony-Cathedral-Recording/dp/B00000E6LD/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1204126149&sr=8-1) recording. Yes the recording is fiendishly difficult to find in the States. I found it once on Ebay for about $10 and yes the performance is staggeringly good. It is almost as if Wand reached back for a little bit extra in this one. The dynamic shadings are so nuanced, so palpably layered, that no two phrases sound the same. The great Adagio has that feeling as if time just stops and you are just experiencing, not hearing the sound of heaven.
There are many great 8th recordings. Off the top of my head, two very hard to find yet definitive recordings: Wand's 8th with NDR that was recorded in a church(forgot the name), and the 8th by Sinopoli with S.Dresden. These two are tough to find, so a more practical choice is Giulini's 8th with Wiener Philharmoniker.
Barns & Noble has this on its website (http://music.barnesandnoble.com/search/product.asp?z=y&EAN=724355668820&itm=2) (albeit more expensively), which means you should be able to go into a local Barnes & Noble store and special order it, paying by your preferred method.
Another option might be for you to go to a store and purchase a Visa gift card (http://usa.visa.com/personal/cards/prepaid/visa_gift_card.html) and then use the card to purchase the set on Amazon.com.
Of course, these options require that you live in a place where Barnes & Noble stores are located or Visa gift cards are available. Good luck, I hope this helps. :)
I think you mean Luebeck. As in this (http://www.amazon.com/Anton-Bruckner-Symphony-Cathedral-Recording/dp/B00000E6LD/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1204126149&sr=8-1) recording. Yes the recording is fiendishly difficult to find in the States. I found it once on Ebay for about $10 and yes the performance is staggeringly good. It is almost as if Wand reached back for a little bit extra in this one. The dynamic shadings are so nuanced, so palpably layered, that no two phrases sound the same. The great Adagio has that feeling as if time just stops and you are just experiencing, not hearing the sound of heaven.
There is also a 9th at the same church. It is good but not as good as the 8th.
I don't think an rare recording like that (Wand NDR 8th in Luebeck) would only fetch 10 dollars. My estimation is at 30 dollars or more(depending upon the condition of course).Well it was BUYNOW at $10 plus some shipping charge. The seller had listed a boaload of stuff for sale, single disc for $5 and duals for $10 . It was in flawless condition. I caught it just about right at the start of the auction otherwise I am sure given a few more minutes someone would have grabbed it.
Barns & Noble has this on its website (http://music.barnesandnoble.com/search/product.asp?z=y&EAN=724355668820&itm=2) (albeit more expensively), which means you should be able to go into a local Barnes & Noble store and special order it, paying by your preferred method.
Another option might be for you to go to a store and purchase a Visa gift card (http://usa.visa.com/personal/cards/prepaid/visa_gift_card.html) and then use the card to purchase the set on Amazon.com.
Of course, these options require that you live in a place where Barnes & Noble stores are located or Visa gift cards are available. Good luck, I hope this helps. :)
It finally appeared on Ebay. I got it new for 150$ shipped!
Thanks for your help.
wow, i thought no one would buy those over-priced cds, but apparently you did. Well, enjoy the music then, i hope you won't be too disappointed by them.
It finally appeared on Ebay. I got it new for 150$ shipped!Why wouldn't you just buy from Amazon. It sells for $127 and shipping is free as in here (http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphonies-Nos-Mass-minor/dp/B0000246CT/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1204424427&sr=8-1).
Thanks for your help.
Why wouldn't you just buy from Amazon. It sells for $127 and shipping is free as in here (http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphonies-Nos-Mass-minor/dp/B0000246CT/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1204424427&sr=8-1).
Or maybe you don't live in the U.S.?
Because i dont have a credit card.Oh, missed that part. So you paid with money order on ebay? That's pretty risky.
Anyone know if the Karajan 8th DVD on Sony classics has good sound? I know the performance is definitely a killer but Sony classics don't usually do justice to their DVD recordings...
I wonder if I should acquire some of Sanderling's Bruckner. Does anybody here consider him among the top choices for these individual symphonies? And how are his performances interpretation-wise? I generally like this conductor in other repertoire.
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4010276011477.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0881488502022.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0782124215125.jpg)
It finally appeared on Ebay. I got it new for 150$ shipped!
Thanks for your help.
I wonder if I should acquire some of Sanderling's Bruckner. Does anybody here consider him among the top choices for these individual symphonies? And how are his performances interpretation-wise? I generally like this conductor in other repertoire.
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4010276011477.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0881488502022.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0782124215125.jpg)
Oh, missed that part. So you paid with money order on ebay? That's pretty risky.
have you listened through it? I don't know, I listened the whole thing, and i thought the 4th and the 8th were very interesting and "must have" performances, the rest are not so memorable.
Again, unless you are a collector, i don't thinik people should pay that much money for it. 150 dollars can get you 2-3 bruckner cycles (with much more interesting interpretations too). By that, meant Wand's cycle (the earlier one), Eichhorn's cycle on Camerata, and either of Jochum's cylces.
I'm not the the kind who needs several different interpretations of a work; usually i'm comparing all the different versions of a work, by listening to hours of samples, and go for my overall favorite (tempo being the most important criteria). It's the music that's important to me, i just have to find the "right recording, based on my personal taste and how a particular work should sound (to me). And, in that case, no one came even close to Celibidache, except maybe for the 9th.
I second the question, any comments on this release?
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0886972023991.jpg)
The soundtracks on the Sony DVDs are the same ones as the DG releases on CD of the same performances. It even says "soundtrack for a Telemondial film production" or something similar on the back of the DG discs. So whether one considers these recordings as having "good sound" or not, it is basically the same quality on the CD and the DVD.
What is that release pictured above? Are those films, and if so, which ones? Is the 9th with the BP? Was it filmed/recorded in 1985? If so, I will definitely get it since, like I said somewhere above, I was in the concert in which that was filmed, and so far, it had only been available in VHS and on DVD only as Japanese import.
Is the 9th with the BP? Was it filmed/recorded in 1985?
Yes and yes! 8) It was delivered today, so I can confirm, as is specified in the booklet, that:
Symphony No.9 (BPO) was recorded in November 1985 at the Philharmonie, Berlin.
Symphony No.8 (VPO) was recorded in November 1988 at Grosser Musikvereinsaal, Vienna.
Currently reading Robert Simpson's analysis of Bruckner's symphonies in The Essence of Bruckner.
So far, after reading the analysis of the Symphonies 1 to 3, he praises Bruckner's genius in general. At the same time, he is quite critical (perhaps even harshly so) of the 3rd Symphony. He also describes it as the weakest of all Bruckner numbered symphonies.
On to reading about # 4. :)
Currently reading Robert Simpson's analysis of Bruckner's symphonies in The Essence of Bruckner.
So far, after reading the analysis of the Symphonies 1 to 3, he praises Bruckner's genius in general. At the same time, he is quite critical (perhaps even harshly so) of the 3rd Symphony. He also describes it as the weakest of all Bruckner numbered symphonies.
On to reading about # 4. :)
Can anyone recommended great recordings of Bruckner's String Quintet?
Thank you.
Could this Bruckner book by Derek Watsen be a good alternative for one who still cannot take too much technical details?
Thank you both for the comments. The book will be ordered. :)
Please tell us, after you have read it, what you think about it (and what you have learned)!
I saw the Karajan 9th and the Jochum 7th on youtube. They both sounds sublime, but both of them recorded those twice, and i dont know which recordings to get (i want the versions you'll hear on the links).
http://youtube.com/watch?v=NZL6bNqBNwM (Jochum 7th)
The DG or the EMI/Brilliant?
... they've remastered them via a rather peculiar - but, I can attest, very effective - process: playing back the source tape in the original recording venues, and re-recording the result in 5.1 surround sound.
Does this mean that the 2-channel LPCM track has also been manipulated in this way?
I remember 2-3 years ago at a cinematech industry convention, I went to a seminar held by George Lucas and James Cameron in which they blablaed about how all the movies wil be 3D in the future and all classics will be reformatted through a new process (the name of which escapes me at the moment), and they showed extensive clips from the original Star Wars and Terminator 2 which had been "threedimensionalized" through that process. For a moment, it didn't look too bad at all, and there was some "aah" and some "ooh" but after just a short while, after the surprise effect had worn off, it started to look really bad because then you saw that the characters were all still 2D (in other words, flat like paper cut-outs), they were just on different depth planes in the image (IIRC, the process basically works by analyzing the image for outlines with different degrees of sharpness and then staggering those elements depending on how much in or out of focus they are).
I am intrigued. Where is 'Berky's site'?
http://www.abruckner.com/ A super page :D
http://www.abruckner.com/ A super page :D
This week I listened to the first commercially available recording of the 6th symphony under an unknown conductor and a second rate orchestra. They are Heinrich Swoboda and the Vienna Symphony (no great shakes at the time - 1950). I was not exactly floored, but close to. This interpretation has sweep, tremendous grip and absolute trust in its chosen point of view. The sheer confidence of the reading is almost intimidating.
Alas? I think that would be good. That concept sounds very strange to me, playing back a recording and rerecording it, even if it is in the same venue - it could be that it really works very well, and I will find out sooner or later because I want to have these films, but I am very suspicious of that technique. It really looks like a very silly gimmick to me. The reverb information is already there on the originals, if only in "two-dimensional" form, playing that back and recording it doesn't seem to me to make any sense. That's like putting a still photo up and filming it - but it's still a still (pun!). Or rather like generating 3D material from 2D sources. I remember 2-3 years ago at a cinematech industry convention, I went to a seminar held by George Lucas and James Cameron in which they blablaed about how all the movies wil be 3D in the future and all classics will be reformatted through a new process (the name of which escapes me at the moment), and they showed extensive clips from the original Star Wars and Terminator 2 which had been "threedimensionalized" through that process. For a moment, it didn't look too bad at all, and there was some "aah" and some "ooh" but after just a short while, after the surprise effect had worn off, it started to look really bad because then you saw that the characters were all still 2D (in other words, flat like paper cut-outs), they were just on different depth planes in the image (IIRC, the process basically works by analyzing the image for outlines with different degrees of sharpness and then staggering those elements depending on how much in or out of focus they are.
OK, that doesn't have *that* much to do with sound recording, but in general, information which was there but is not stored in the recording can not be retrieved or simulated somehow. That simply doesn't work. Playing a recording back in a concert hall is already a very different kind of source from having an orchestra sit there and play. But we will see (or hear). Maybe I am totally wrong, but this kind of stuff makes me very, very sceptical. I hope they didn't mess up the recordings for some silly gimmicky effect.
Besides, whatever spatial information is there in the 2-channel recording can be underlined a little by ProLogic decoding which every home receiver has.
The Wiener Symphoniker are not a "second rate" orchestra.
M forever, I stand by what I wrote, esp. considering the context I mentioned (immediate post-war Vienna), as well as mentioning the real virtues of the playing in this particular instance (did you read that far? After all, it was only a little review, it can't have been that hard?). But then, I listened to the recording, and you obviously didn't.
That's ok , point taken. Maybe 'second tier' would have been more appropriate than 'second rate'. In any case, it's too bad my writing style distracted from exploring the very real merits of this performance. In its chosen point of view, it is stunning. Free download from John Berky's Anton Bruckner site.
Now, I'm just listening to some Suppé overtures performed by the LPO in 1951 and conducted by Solti (Otterhouse website (http://homepages.ipact.nl/~otterhouse/), free downloads again). For anyone interested, I heartily recommend a listen. I suspect some quite strong 'hurwitzisms' will readily come to mind... ;)
I much prefer a more relaxed way with these works, but there's no denying the physical excitement these high octane interpretations provide. Although it was taped in 1951, the sound is quite good.
They you're looking at Dutoit, who conducts the pieces like lullabies. In my view there is no point in such an approach, since the music itself doesn't have much much intrinsic content.
Indeed, and there is another concept that eldues a lot of people which Dutoit understands very well. It is called "style".Which is recordings of Suppe exhibit a total lack of.
I was thinking more of the gorgeous Mehta VPO, Karajan, Paray..., all of whom show lots of verve and vigour. Excitement and energy are not synonymous with speed, a concept that still seems to elude some people...
Which is recordings of Suppe exhibit a total lack of.
Many of your postings here show clearly that you have no idea what musical style is (or rather, what musical styles are), when it comes to both compositions and performance styles, so but I will stick with Dutoit when it comes to that question. But thanks for your contribution anyway.
Most of your postings here show clearly that "doesn't agree with you" is equivalent to "doesn't know anything." But thanks for your sarcastic remark.
Most of your postings here show clearly that "doesn't agree with you" is equivalent to "doesn't know anything."
Looks like you two found each other! Have fun in the kiddie corner! Perfect FIFTH, bring some cookies for your new friend.
Very true, that's because most people here - like you - really have nothing of interest to say. If you want to participate in a discussion, you have to have something to say, and you have to have to be able to back up your views and arguments. Some can do that, and they can be very interesting discussion partners - especially when they disagree with me but can make points -, but you are unfortunately not one of them. Sorry!
But you can play with Perfect FIFTH while the grownups have their discussions, so don't be sad, OK?
Is this Haitink's 1981 recording of the Bruckner 9th? What do you think about it? I have heard his reindition of the scherzo should be quite something.
http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-No-9-Haitink/dp/B00000E2LS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1208329382&sr=1-1
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/02/ciu/5c/cf/c52af96642a0fe7f4ee84110._AA240_.L.jpg)
Is this Haitink's 1981 recording of the Bruckner 9th? What do you think about it? I have heard his reindition of the scherzo should be quite something.
http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-No-9-Haitink/dp/B00000E2LS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1208329382&sr=1-1
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/02/ciu/5c/cf/c52af96642a0fe7f4ee84110._AA240_.L.jpg)
Very true, that's because most people here - like you - really have nothing of interest to say.
I haven't heard that Haitink recording for decades, and it was on cassette. I do recall it being recorded in a much darker acoustic than the usual COA sound, which - to my ears at least - cast a gloomy atmosphere on the proceedings. It is much slower than Haitink's 1963 recording - which in turn could be described as too lightweight...
Hm, I don't know, I don't know the cover. But what I DO know is that that second Haitink Ninth is one of my favourite performances - the Coda of the first movement is colossal, with two sets of timpani underpinning the iambic rhythm in the lower brass. We have had a discussion here already about which version Haitink was using, because he is not one to tamper with scores...
Are there other conductors whom use two sets of timpani in the first movement?
This is the only performance I know where that iambic rhythm I mentioned is reinforced by the timpani (it ought to be just a drum-roll, IIRC). M forever may correct me, but this use of the timpani is sui generis, and I don't know which version Haitink has used. The effect, by the way, is monumental.
Thank you very much for your comments. I really look forward to hear it now (as I pushed the buy button... :)).
This is the only performance I know where that iambic rhythm I mentioned is reinforced by the timpani (it ought to be just a drum-roll, IIRC). M forever may correct me, but this use of the timpani is sui generis, and I don't know which version Haitink has used. The effect, by the way, is monumental.
??? Do yo mean it goes tu-DUM, tu-DUM instead of just rolling ? If that's the case, he's not alone, I've heard it elsewhere too. I'd have to check...
In musical terms, we call that a "dotted rhythm", Jezetha ;) I think it is somehow a Concertgebouw thing, I once read what the story behind it is, but I forgot. It may have something to do with Mengelberg.
I remember now that the timpani thing also appears on van Beinum's recordings, but I don't know if he started that or if Mengelberg did.
'Dotted rhythm', yes, that's the musical term, you're right. Though with the 'iambic' I wanted to specify the sort of dotted rhythm. It could also have been anapaestic or a fourth paeonic... ;) So I should have said: iambic dotted rhythm. Hm, that sounds terrible...
CDjapan has a Bruckner 4 with Kertesz/LSO. Does anyone know anything about this recording? Is it any good?Well, let me put it this way. Kertész never made a bad recording, and a great loss when he drowned in '73.
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/6e/4c/7ccba2c008a01930c086a010._AA240_.L.jpg)Wow, I don't know this recording. Well, Hausegger was the man responsible for the original 9th coming to the fore. In '32 with the same orchestra, he performed the Löwe version and then the original, which was a success, and has been the version performed almost exclusively since. We've all got to thank this man for that. Also, he was a composer, and his Natursymphonie is coming out on cd very soon!
Symphony No.9, Münchner Philharmoniker, April 1938 HMV (Preiser)
Flowing, swift (very swift in Scherzo) but I don't find it rushed. Unsentimental but not cold, nonhistrionic but neither reticent, structuraly coherent reading with achieved formidable orchestral clarity for the time. Münchner Philharmoniker of '38 doesn't need cutting any slack. Sound decent for 1938, lacking the lowest of lows and having limited dynamic range but nicely detailed and with enough presence.
I quite like it (it has high hummability factor*) but probably not to everybodys taste (most?).
This is I believe the only existing Hausegger recording, of anything, pity.
* I like to sing along with Bruckner, not that I can.
Hausegger...was a composer, and his Natursymphonie is coming out on cd very soon!
What's the music like?
That's mostly vain blablabla by one "Dr. Markus Gärtner" there, I am not interested in reading that. Probably one of those idiots who couldn't get into the music academy so they studied musicology instead. I would rather hear yours or Sarge's opinion.
Thanks for the demolition job-cum-compliment! Unfortunately I can't have an opinion. I had been looking forward to Sarge's view to see if this was a work I'd like...
We'll simply have to be patient.
Well, let me put it this way. Kertész never made a bad recording, and a great loss when he drowned in '73.
I've listened to this recording many times and it's worth getting to know if you love this work. Also, the LSO at that time was just about untouchable on recordings.
It's amazing to find so many great recordings of this symphony, probably the least recorded among numbers 3-9.
I think the reason for why you find so relatively many "favorites" among the recordings of this less recorded work is that, perhaps, only the conductors who really care for the music and make an effort to understand it actually conduct and record it, while among those who do the more "popular" symphonies (e.g. #4), there may be many more who just conduct them exactly for that reason - because they are "popular".For some reason, when I read this, I instantly thought of a certain curly-haired chap called Simon.
I'm really grateful for the Bruckner 6th reccomendations, as I have only the Tintner. Thanks!
There is a grest 6th for free download here:
http://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/March/
Old sound, but a good quality rip.
There is a grest 6th for free download here:
http://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/March/
Old sound, but a good quality rip.
Just listened to Celibidache/MPO's 4th, :o what detailed and full sound! The coda of the finale is superbly handled, the tension inevitably built-up. Excellent weighty brass and strings. 9.5/10
I have a friend here whom is helping me check that one out, am greatly looking forward to it now thanks to you, W.!
Hey Andy, hope you'll like it! And if you turn out to be as obsessed with his recordings with the MPO, buy the entire Bruckner set on EMI! The 3rd, 4th, 7th, 8th and 9th (which is almost every recording in the set, actually) are particularly good. You've never heard how beautifully rich and powerful an orchestral sound could be until you've heard these recordings, I kid you not. :)
Hey Andy, hope you'll like it! And if you turn out to be as obsessed with his recordings with the MPO, buy the entire Bruckner set on EMI! The 3rd, 4th, 7th, 8th and 9th (which is almost every recording in the set, actually) are particularly good. You've never heard how beautifully rich and powerful an orchestral sound could be until you've heard these recordings, I kid you not. :)
Seconded!
Actually, W. my friend (only hint: his first name is George) is sending me the whole EMI caboodle, along with the Jochum for comparison. I'm even more grateful and happy now. I've heard Celibidache's 7th already, which is really good. I'm PSYCHED about hearing his Bruckner 8th and 9th in particular.
Oh man, you're in for some serious JAH-min'. Just make sure you wear an extra pair of socks when you do. ;)
This morning on my drive to work at about 8:30am they were playing Bruckner's Symphony No. 9 on the radio (I came in on the Adagio). That was a strange drive.Could the "strange drive" be a result of your car's momentum of your and the groove of the music not synching together? :D
I thought some of the tempo fluctuations were somewhat odd in this recording, tempo seemed to be pushed around too much, but the playing , particularly strings, was excellent. Turned out to be Janowski with the Suisse Romande.
This recently released Bruckner 8 by Klemperer/Cologne RSO seems mighty interesting. It doesn't have the cuts like his later EMI recording.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Tbol8GIIL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Whether you have 16-14-12-10-8 (total 60) or 18-16-14-12-10 (total 70) doesn't make any noticeable difference in sound pressure level and it doesn't really make a difference in texture either (provided the musicians always play well together which is obviously the case if they are the same). Maybe Messiaen called explicitly for these numbers (were there sections in which the strings were divided into many smaller sections, by stands).
This section deleted by moderator as it is totally there for the sake of causing trouble
GB
As was my reply in which I asked 71dB to please shut up in maybe not very polite language. I can see why Mr B deleted that. So let me ask him again, this time really nicely:
Can't you please shut up and stop spamming this forum with stuff you have said hundreds (literally) of times before and which really nobody wants to hear (read)? PLEASE?
I also said that it would be nice, for Elgar's and his music's sake, if he gave people a chance to listen to Elgar's music without being reminded of him (71dB) and all the nonsense he talks about his music, especially in comparison with other music. Because that caases a nauseating effect which makes it impossible to continue to enjoy Elgar's music. Is that OK if I ask nicely to give Elgar's music a chance with all those listeners who have been put off it by 71dB?
^^
I was recently wondering if we should start a "Music to start your day" thread, after listening to the Shostakovich cello concertos first thing in the morning and getting into a very strange mood.
I have no idea how the "Maazel + Brucker 8" equation will work, but I'm looking forward to it anyway, since I haven't heard it live in a long time.Apparently it works pretty well here:
--Bruce
Apparently it works pretty well here:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21MJGC4MEFL._SL500_AA180_.jpg)
but then again as they say results may vary.
Oh thanks, I hadn't seen that recording. I don't exactly need another one ;D but I may have to get it (probably not before tomorrow night, though).I think this is the newest budget incarnation:
--Bruce
Oh thanks, I hadn't seen that recording. I don't exactly need another one ;D but I may have to get it (probably not before tomorrow night, though).
--Bruce
That's actually a very good recording. I heard the concerts when they recorded that (although this isn't "live", it was recorded "in studio" in the Philharmonie in the same working phase as the concerts, probably after them) and actually didn't quite "get" Maazel's interpretation then. IIRC, I found it too "polished", "superficial" or something like that, just focused on producing nice monumental blocks of sound rather than shining a light into the inner life of the music. Which is kind of like the first impression you get from listening to this recording, but it can be heard in this recording that there is more inner musical life and a certain well sustained intensity going on under the surface than I had perceived in the concert back then. In my defence, I had heard the same symphony not too long before that concert with Giulini and Wand (though not at the same time!) and those performances were devastating experiences the memory of which still makes me shudder (in a good way) 2 decades later. So while this is not a "first" recommendation, it is a good performance and worth listening to. Plus the sound EMI achieved in the Philharmonie is very good, much better than a lot of contemporary DG recordings from the same venue. It sounds pretty much like the orchestra actually sounded in the hall at that time (in "miniature", of course).
BTW, the pictured editions are all the same recording. There is also a 7th with the same team. IIRC, they also played the 9th in concert but that wasn't recorded. Apparently the other recordings didn't sell so well.
I see that Herbert Kegel's recordings of the 3rd, 4th (two versions), 7th and 9th symphony, all on ODE CLASSICS, are still available at BRO. Would you recommend any of these performances with the Leipzig Radio Orchestra?
Throughout his later decades, Bruno Walter (1876-1962) was considered to be one of the world’s most noteworthy Brucknerians. Among his valedictory recordings his most prized are arguably those of Bruckner’s Fourth, Seventh and Ninth Symphonies with the Los Angeles-based Columbia Symphony Orchestra, recorded between 1959 and 1961. Yet Walter came to conduct Bruckner relatively late in his career. His first known Bruckner performance was a 1914 performance of the Fourth. Walter admitted that he himself did not feel entirely comfortable conducting Bruckner’s music until 1927, when he was over fifty years of age, as a result of enforced rest and contemplation caused by a bout of double pneumonia.
Until almost twenty years after his death, in 1962, none of the numerous surviving live Bruckner recordings had come to light. Suddenly, within a few short years, a number of live Bruckner Ninths started appearing. Six are now known, including three with the New York Philharmonic. A relatively early Bruckner Fourth (from 1940) surfaced, and a unique recording of the Bruckner Eighth (from 1941) was undoubtedly the highlight of the new discoveries. All the while, no broadcast of the Seventh could be found. This was especially unfortunate, given that Walter’s tempi slowed down markedly after his heart attack in 1957.
On 27 December 1953, Columbia Records recorded Walter conducting the New York Philharmonic-Symphony Orchestra (as it was then known) in Bruckner’s Symphony No.9, a live concert that was also broadcast. The following year, on 23 December 1954, Columbia recorded the entire, non-broadcast concert, in which the Bruckner Symphony No.7 was included in the programme. The next afternoon, in another concert that was not broadcast, Columbia again recorded the exact same programme. While the 1953 Columbia recording of the Ninth has not, apparently, survived (although, fortunately, broadcast tapes do), both 1954 concerts exist in their entirety. (It is not altogether clear, however, which recording is from which concert: only the 23 December concert is mentioned in Columbia’s paperwork, and the tapes are undated, simply being listed as ‘A’ and ‘B’.)
Extract from the booklet note, Jon M. Samuels, 2008
Testament SBT1424
Just being released, timings look interesting:Indeed the timing looks interesting, about 10 minutes shorter than most versions. Isn't that pretty typical of Walter though? Just look at his infamous Mahler 9th from the 30's with the Viennese.
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/SBT1424.jpg)
Christoph Willibald Gluck
Iphigénie en Aulide – Overture 10.54
Anton Bruckner
Symphony No. 7 in E
I Allegro moderato 17.35
II Adagio: Sehr feierlich und sehr langsam 16.59
III Scherzo: Sehr schnell 8.58
IV Finale: Bewegt, doch nicht schnell 12.16
TT 67.16
New York Philharmonic Orchestra / Bruno Walter
Indeed the timing looks interesting, about 10 minutes shorter than most versions. Isn't that pretty typical of Walter though? Just look at his infamous Mahler 9th from the 30's with the Viennese.
Infamous - 1 : having a reputation of the worst kind : notoriously evil <an infamous traitor> 2 : causing or bringing infamy : disgraceful <an infamous crime> 3 : convicted of an offense bringing infamy - http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/infamous
(http://www.piclook.net/albums/userpics/10468/normal_BRSOset1.jpg)
once in a life time opportunity
http://www.demonoid.com/files/details/1534283/?show_files=#comments
Do you really mean that, PW ???? I listened to it a long time ago and it seemed to me to be quite impressive, in Walter's urgent, lyrical and passionate pre-1950 way.Maybe I just can't get used to the final movment played at about 18 minutes where most performances take 10 minutes or so longer. I think the final Adagissimo section should really feel like at times the music just stopped, but tries to get going again, until finally stops. This recording really doesn't do it for me. I think Walter's later Columbia SO remake is much better.
(Alas, I don't suspect I'll find many of his recordings at this level, but you never know...)
I got this in the meantime and am sampling it here and there right now. Very interesting. My first torrrent, BTW. Thanks a lot for pointing us to that!
A brief assessment of the original version of the 8th under Tintner, with the National Youth Orchestra of Canada. Recorded a few years before his Naxos Ireland recording, this one displays very different qualities and characteristics. At about 5 minutes less in overall timing (all of it in I, II and mostly IV) it's more urgent and less lyrical than the later interpretation. I particularly liked the extra tension in I and II, a quality that in IV would later be replaced by an added layer of burnished glow and orchestral heft. The NYOC play like champions (it's a live recording), but the strings sound slightly undernourished even with the original version's thinner scoring. Well recorded but at a certain distance that robs the sound of the presence we're accustomed to from a studio effort.
In the Naxos recording's liner notes (Tintner's own) we're told frankly about the deficiencies of the original version and, after having heard the Inbal and both Tintners, I have to agree it's quite inferior to the revision. Some changes just cried to be made. The six-fold cymbal crashes at the climax of the Adagio - they just beg: "Take me away" like so many Gerontius pleas. The last chords of the coda in Tintner I and II are taken very differently - Tintner II evidently trying to reconcile the original version with the familiar crashing ending. In I (the NYOC recording) he's more honest about the text.
I'm still not sure after all these years which edition (Haas or Nowak) of the last version I own my allegiance. Most of the time the conductor and orchestra will carry my vote. Tintner makes no mystery about his own preference: Haas. Which makes me wonder: why on earth has he advocated the inferior original text ? The only version I've heard that makes sense of it not Tintner, but Weller. So, why bother ?
I'm still not sure after all these years which edition (Haas or Nowak) of the last version I own my allegiance. Most of the time the conductor and orchestra will carry my vote. Tintner makes no mystery about his own preference: Haas. Which makes me wonder: why on earth has he advocated the inferior original text ? The only version I've heard that makes sense of it not Tintner, but Weller. So, why bother ?
did you download the lecture from Berky also? A very interesting discussion, perhaps we can discuss the concept of "The need to suffer" here.
I'm not sure of the logic behind his (and evidently many other conductors') contention that Bruckner bowed to pressure in cutting 4 minutes out of 80... Did that make any difference in that context? What concert promoter or conductor of the time would have felt that Bruckner had 'abridged' his work? ::)
I do have the Naita disc. It's interesting strictly for the alternative Adagio - the rest is, well, japanese. Meaning no bass in the sound, no warmth in the playing, no insight into the conducting. It's efficient, brisk and dry. But I do believe the "intermediate" Adagio is a piece of real worth and could be retained as an option here and there.
Yes I did, but I skipped that.
Given the lecturer's premise, I feel I should only return to it when properly informed (I suppose Janacek's opera is no substitute for the Dostoevsky novel, so that might be a while). I have to admit those introductory remarks turned me off big time, though. I wonder how many in the audience had actually read From The House Of The Dead?
I find that kind of thing insufferably snobbish (THAT's my loss).
I've always preferred the Novak editions but I am no expert (not because of Haas's links with the Nazis). One of the best concerts I ever attended was Wand's last one in London; Bruckner's 9th Symphony and that was the Haas edition I guess.
There is actually no Haas edition of the 9th. The 9th had been published in its original version by Alfred Orel in 1932 or so, the first symphony to receive that treatment and be freed of all the edits and retouches made by Schalk and Löwe and other "well meaning" friends. Haas prepared new editions of all the symphonies except 2 and 9 and his work on the 3rd was destroyed during the war. He was removed from his post after 1945 because of his association with the NSDAP and replaced with Nowak. Apart from the certain degree of "freedom" Hass allowed himself in his edition of the 8th symphony, his editions are generally very reliable and a lot of conductors, like Wand, stuck to his versions even though Nowak revised pretty much all of them (in many cases, the two editions are almost completely identical). In Wand's case, I think it is pretty safe to assume that he reviewed all available editions carefully and decided to stick with Haas because he found his versions better, not just because those were the versions he was used to. Wand was among the first to use and record the new critical editions of the Beethoven symphonies which came out in the decades after the war, discarding the old well known versions with many small errors and touchups without any hesitation. So I see his preference for the Haas editions as something of a vindication for Haas' work.
This is the wrong attitude, I think not too many people in the audience had read the novel. This is not a literary discussion, but a discussion on Bruckner. Dr. Tintner brought up Dostoevsky, because he had good reasons for doing so. Plus, he tells the audience what happens in the novel, so it doesn't really matter whether you have read it or not, what's important is the connection (his theory) between Bruckner and his central idea.
No, it's not. It's not snobbery, Dr.Tintner's lecture has to do with music, not literature. If you had even a little more patience, and listen through the lecture. You would've gain infinitively more than what you thought you would gain from it.
If you maintain that attitude evidently you won't. Your loss.
Most conductors who chose one or the other version didn't really "edit" them any further, so most of the versions (at least the more recent ones) should be "faithful" to the text. Particularly good versions are Wand or Karajan for Haas and Giulini, Böhm, or Harnoncourt for Nowak, among many others, of course. The discography on abruckner.com can be consulted to find out who uses which edition.
BTW, a new Bruckner 9 will be coming out on Sony soon, with the Staatskapelle Dresden and their new principal conductor Fabio Luisi. That is something I will be interested to hear, after all, Luisi is one of the rare conductors around these days who has done his homework and learned his craft throughly, so while the recent Strauss recordings he made in Dresden all happen on a predictably very high level but may not have the highly individual touches Sinopoli brought to his Bruckner and Strauss recordings with this orchestra, they display very solid craftsmanship and a clear concept, something not too often found these days.
I have been way out of the loop lately in terms of music. Can anyone recommend me some notable Bruckner recordings released in the past year or so?
Interesting to see that Profil have put all their live Wand recordings from Munich in a box. But I don't see that offered anywhere except for jpc, apparently neither amazon.com nor .de have it or maybe I am not searching right.
Seems like we'll wait and see what comes out of it.It'll probably be the best thing. EVER.
It'll probably be the best thing. EVER.
What do you know about Luisi that I don't!? :oDude, I like, totally have a feeling...........
Adding to my above question, when is that Luisi/SD 9th coming out?
Keilberth's classic Bruckner 6 and 9 will be available again in Japan 24/9 - 1000 yen per CD. Much better than those crazy ebay price these can go for.Amazon is taking orders for them and they are coming out sometime in September according to them.
(http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BJa5nBj0L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CKZAa796L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Amazon is taking orders for them and they are coming out sometime in September according to them.
I wonder how this guy (http://cgi.ebay.com/Joseph-Keilberth-BPO-BRUCKNER-Symphony-6-Teldec-CD_W0QQitemZ170244709772QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item170244709772&_trkparms=39%3A1%7C66%3A4%7C65%3A1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14.l1318)feels paying $40+ bucks for one of them:
I saw this. I thought I could pick it up if it went for $10-15. But yesterday one guy payed $120 for Richter in Leipzig :o :o :o, and that one just has been released for about £10 (Parnassus) in better sound than the M&A release. I guess that guy has not picked up this news...Or maybe he just doesn't peruse this forum ;)
Amazon is taking orders for them and they are coming out sometime in September according to them.
I wonder how this guy (http://cgi.ebay.com/Joseph-Keilberth-BPO-BRUCKNER-Symphony-6-Teldec-CD_W0QQitemZ170244709772QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item170244709772&_trkparms=39%3A1%7C66%3A4%7C65%3A1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14.l1318)feels paying $40+ bucks for one of them:
Mainly, the difference is from a big, Beethoven 9-size work chockful of ideas and slightly overpadded on the seams (1873) to a slimmer, still sizeable work with some fat shed in the process (1877). OTOH Bruckner may have resented the editorial process, as he composed a silly, demential codetta for the scherzo that was appropriate as the proverbial Mona Lisa mustache.
Of those I haven't heard two of the Blomstedts, but the recent (2005) concert realy from San Francisco is a thunderclap in a blue sky of a version. It's a SF concert broadcast and I can't even recall its provenance.
:'( M likes the coda to the scherzo.
Have you heard Harnoncourt's and Sinopoli's versions (both at, incidentally, the 1877 version)?
Yes, both. I like Sinopoli's but found it rather severe and massive. Lacking volatility, which I think should befit a d minor work (for no good reason, I have to admit. I guess it's a 'mood' thing). Both alas appended the coda to the scherzo. Funny in a Road Runner way, but doesn't it sound like the composer had a fit of the tarentella? The same effect is achieved more naturally in the scherzo of the first symphony - a sudden shift of key and tempo. I have heard a good dozen more versions but not all make it to the finish, even if they made the qualifying rounds.
M also has a live recording of the 3rd with Blomstedt and the Gewandhausorchester. :)
Really? How interesting! ;D
It cannot be in the public domain.
The Big Tune of the 3rd sounds quite Wagnerian. Is it from Wagner?The Big Tune ? If you refer to the main theme first enuciated on the trumpet at the outset of the first movement, it's by Bruckner. But Wagner, who was presented with the original score loved it very much indeed: he nicknamed the composer "Bruckner the trumpet". Here's a Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._3_(Bruckner)) article that describes the work and its circumstances. Not nearly detailed enough, but a quick read. There are actual Wagner quotes in the slow movement, but only in the original version (1873). Bruckner reworked that movement extensively and in the process eliminated them. Apparently there are other Wagner quotes in the 1873 first movement, but I haven't detected them.
Have you heard Dohnányi's recording of the 3rd (Cleveland)?I did not hear the Norrington version adequately (I heard a portion on the radio but can't form an opinion based on that. Going back to an earlier post I see I may have left the impression I had heard it. I did not). If you recommend it I'll certainly give it a try, since it's easily accessible in mp3 format and I really like this orchestra. I have the Dohnanyi, but honestly can't remember much of it. This is usually a 'neutral' sign for me: didn't push any particular buttons one way or another. Generally speaking I have never 'clicked' with any Dohnanyi recording I've had: Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Bruckner, Wagner. But it's there on the shelf, so I might give it another go.
How did you like Norrington's?
The Big Tune ? If you refer to the main theme first enuciated on the trumpet at the outset of the first movement, it's by Bruckner.
I did not hear the Norrington version adequately (I heard a portion on the radio but can't form an opinion based on that. Going back to an earlier post I see I may have left the impression I had heard it. I did not). If you recommend it I'll certainly give it a try, since it's easily accessible in mp3 format and I really like this orchestra.
The ones I have or had are:
- Haitink (2)
- Jochum (2)
- Karajan
- Böhm
- Kubelik (3)
- Knappertsbusch BRSO
- Sinopoli
- Szell (2)
- Rozhdestvensky
- Kegel
- Celibidache (EMI)
- Haenchen
- Matacic
- Gielen
- Tintner
Uh...no Wand? Hello?
I may be forgetting one or two
Berkshire Record Outlet (http://www.broinc.com/) :)AKA your source for pirated recordings.
AKA your source for pirated recordings.
I know I'll be lambasted and crucified for saying this (ask me if I care)
Another listen to the Giulini VPO recording of the 9th symphony. Every second year or so I listen to this (had it for almost 20 years now). Once again I put it back on the shelf knowing I've not had a great listening experience. Among the three Bruckner 9ths I have with Giullini, this is the most awesomely played, Dynasty-like version. I know I'll be lambasted and crucified for saying this (ask me if I care), but I believe Giulini at that stage of his carreer was, like Karajan and Celibidache, intent on making every last record his testament on a work. Karajan managed to infuse some real pain and mental ambiguity into his interpretaiitons, but Giulini is convinced he has attained the Grail. His version has little life in it. Maybe a lot of afterlife (admittedly very appropriate), but no anguish, no searing doubt-ridden, remorse-laden, hand-wringing strife. Not that it's any less good for that. It's his chosen point of view and he puts it acrosss magnificently. His is more of a Brünnhilde Immolation Scene than Siegfried Death. Past tragedies reflected at the end of a long life. A beautiful, powerful and imposing panoramic view of ein heldenleben. Of its chosen point of view it is better than Celibidache Munich and Bernstein VPO (more cohesive and better put across). Bu I hear different things in this work. Giulini had a more balanced, 'central' view of the work when conducting it in Amsterdam and Chicago. I detect a penchant for the afterlife aspects of the work already, but I think it covers more of the 9th's huge vistas than this swan song Vienna recording.
Perhaps my listening for tomorrow (September 4th) will be dedicated to some Bruckner, since it's his birthday.
At least a few of his symphonies, and the string quintet. 0:)
I still haven't heard the String Quintet yet, so I'm looking forward to your reccomendations of course!
The only one I've heard, which is the one I have, is the Raphael Quartet (Globe) recording.
Fine Arts Quartet is supposed to be recording it on Naxos. It was originally slated to be released in August 2008, but I don't think it has been released yet.
We are happy to announce a unique and extraordinary addition to the Bruckner catalog! Thomas Mandel and his Temporary Art Orchestra have created a full-length Jazz improvisation of the Bruckner Symphony No. 5. The performance was recorded at St. Florian in August of 2007 and was performed again (but not exactly the same!!) at the Brucknerhaus in Linz as part of the 2008 Brucknerfest. The ensemble consists of a saxaphone, piano, guitar, string quintet, percussion and synthesizer. For those who know and love the Bruckner 5th, there is much to marvel at in this inventive performance.
SW 010296-2
81:30 - 27:49 23:23 10:11 20:12
Wonders never cease ! Check this announcement from Bruckner hunter emeritus John berky:
Hmmm... I wonder ::)
Available by contacting Thomas Mandel at www.thomasmandel.at
God knows how much it costs, considering its length exceeds the one disc capacity ???. But I'm interested too >:D.
Recently I was comparing Sevenths from Nézet-Séguin and that other “Young Contender”,.
Jaap Van Zweden – an exercise which this week I have been able to repeat with Ninths. Van
Zweden’s Ninth falls into the category that I call “fine, but” – meaning, it’s fine – as far as it
goes – but not in any major way exceptional (though better than his Seventh.) Very likely
you already have a number of recordings which reveal more and satisfy more.
Here's an extract from a Bruckner Journal review that appeared this week: .
I think it's pretty obvious that by "OK" I meant that it is competently played without any major complaints about the technical execution, but that it is nothing special in any respect. I don't think there is any need to start splitting hairs about word definitions here.
It is not untypical at all for orchestras to call in freelance players to boost their numbers a little or as replacement for sick players etc, but for a rather small orchestra to call in dozens of players is a little unusual. The OSM for instance could play this symphony with just a few extra horn players.
In any case whatever my ("minority") opinion is, you are also entitled to your (much less informed than mine) opinion, but I think it is obvious that a little local pride is what clouds your otherwise quite critical judgment here.
I thought you were already in a different place with your Bruckner listening. It should be obvious to you that what this young man is doing here may be superficially quite "nice" but that there is no depth at all to it. Bruckner is much more than nice melodies with a little accompaniment. The relationships between all the elements are much more complex than what he is able to show here. Somehow, on that superficial level, the music "plays itself" quite well to a certain degree but I think it is very telling that his La Mer which is a piece with more detail complexity and less horizontal continuity, falls apart as much as it does in his recording.
Really, there are so many recordings by much better orchestras and conductors of these pieces, I don't see the need for this stuff at all.
Which is a pity because I like the shiny, bright sound the local players make there. I always wanted to hear some Bruckner from the OSM and this is obviously close in sound esthetics to that orchestra. I guess there must be at least some recent live OSM recordings of Bruckner floating around, but then again, according to you Kent Nagano has no business conducting Bruckner or however you put it. Are there some recordings of Bruckner symphonies with Paul Decker?
This post of yours was interesting inasmuch as it it seemed to be about a disc you knew. But you don't. I didn't recognize anything I wrote or that was quoted in the reviews you obvioulsy didn't read when you mentioned "Bruckner is much more than nice melodies with a little accompaniment. The relationships between all the elements are much more complex than what he is able to show here".Somehow, on that superficial level, the music "plays itself" quite well to a certain degree". How would you know- you didn't listen to the disc.
I have even downloaded the 9th symphony from amazon in the meantime because I always want to stay open and curious but I think it is obvious that there is no point in discussing that with you.
But how will you know if I actually have the recording or maybe just make up my "review"?
would you really lie?This version of the 9th symphony is full of subtle nuances that many conductors miss, such as the way the strings cut through the woodwind section, the idiosyncrasies of the brass, and the overall, more flexable and sensitive tempo in the opening movement.
dj
Has anyone watched the Karajan/VPO videos of the 8th and 9th from the late 70s? They are released by Unitel Classics. One of them is recorded in the St. Florian Church! I haven't gotten around to seeing them yet. Opinions?
I might be getting it next month, when I finally make my long overdue large DUX order...
About the Bruckner 8th, the 1st two movements are fine but the latter two movements bored me to tears (watches out for M). His EMI and last DG recording is better. The 9th is far better coupled with Te Deum, great performances. Get the 9th if you must.
Symphony no. 5 by Hans Knappertsbusch and the WP, Wilhelm Furtwängler and the WP (live, 1951).
Furtwängler's interpretation rights every wrong from the Knappertsbusch one. It's a fire-eating performance, where impetus and power come from within the music - as opposed to applied on it like half a dozen overcoats. Very rough recording and somewhat variable playing. It's hard to ascribe the too recessed and timid horns and trombones on the players - it could be the engineering. No such reservation with the trumpet section, timpani or strings. The latter are glorious in the great, fervently intoned hymn (main theme) of the Adagio. Overall it's a wildly emotional ride. Not for everyday consumption, and recommended only to the 5th symphony's enthusiast.I was surprised at how straightforward and "no-nonsense" Furtwängler interpreted the Fifth.
I've just heard this vaunted Böhm/Vienna recording for the first time..... Overall, first impressions of a seasoned listener being what they are, I find this performance to be exceedingly routine in interpretation...
My feelings exactly. I've owned this (on LP and CD) for over 30 years, listened to it many times, but have never undestood why it's so highly thought of by so many (a legend? why?). It leaves me cold.This recording has also never done anything for me. I should revisit this some time; the 4th has never been amongst my favourite Bruckners and it's been a long time since I've listened to anyone but Furtwangler or Celibidache in it, so I probably need a bit more variety in listening.
Sarge
This recording has also never done anything for me. I should revisit this some time; the 4th has never been amongst my favourite Bruckners and it's been a long time since I've listened to anyone but Furtwangler or Celibidache in it, so I probably need a bit more variety in listening.
My feelings exactly. I've owned this (on LP and CD) for over 30 years, listened to it many times, but have never undestood why
Concertgebouw / Klemperer / 1947, live / Tahra (if you can find it)
New and potentially very interesting 9th has just come out:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41sSB2LTKtL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Böhm's Vienna Bruckners (3, 4, 7, 8 ) are characterized by totally unforced and natural pacing. It can sound like the recipe for bland Bruckner, but it isn't. If you don't relate to their Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert or Brahms, there's little chance that you'll find their Bruckner engrossing. I personally like it a lot, although only the DG 8th is a 'top' in my book. But the others are very close to it. There are many ways to conduct this music.
Second that. I love his VPO Bruckner 4 (though my personal favorite is Kubelik with BRSO). Incidentally, are you aware of Böhm's Bruckner 7 with BRSO on audite. That one is terriffic as well.
Second that. I love his VPO Bruckner 4 (though my personal favorite is Kubelik with BRSO). Incidentally, are you aware of Böhm's Bruckner 7 with BRSO on audite. That one is terriffic as well.
The Audite live BRSO Böhm 7th made it onto the ionarts Best of 2008 list, along with the new Haitink CSO 7th, which I also wholeheartedly recommend. The most detailed reading I have ever heard.
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/12/best-recordings-of-2008.html
How is the sound on that Berlin Classics set? I see there's a few of them around, ridiculously cheap. What gives?
(If nothing "gives", I'm interested!)
Please let us know how Bongartz fares in the 6th !!!!
Not available singly I suppose? :'(