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The Music Room => Great Recordings and Reviews => Topic started by: Que on April 09, 2007, 06:07:54 AM

Title: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on April 09, 2007, 06:07:54 AM
Another installment in this series!  :D

Please post your favourite recordings on period instruments of works by composers of the Romantic period: Schubert, Schumann, Brahms, Fauré, etc.

My own favourites for Schubert:

For the symphonies Jos van Immerseel (Sony) and for the masses Bruno Weil (Sony).

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00008PW45.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg)     (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00009PBXF.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg)


For the Trout quintet and the Arpeggione sonata L'Archibudelli and Van Immerseel (Sony),
and for the piano trios La Gaia Scienza (Winter & Winter).

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00000C3SB.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg)     (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/8693841.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Don on April 09, 2007, 06:47:56 AM
For the piano trios on period instruments, there's also the Atlantis Ensemble on 2 Wildboard discs and Immerseel/Beths/Bylsma on a single Sony Vivarte.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bunny on April 09, 2007, 08:25:07 AM
L'Archibudelli has a number of HIP recordings of romantic music - Brahms, Mendelssohn, Weber, Gade, Dvorak, Spohr. and Bruckner to name a few.  Unfortunately most of them are as scarce as hen's teeth and command obscene prices (though not as high as that Mozart album ;) )

Also for the Schubert Symphonies, there is the Brüggen cycle too.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000INAVQW.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: George on April 09, 2007, 08:56:34 AM
Another installment in the HIP series!  :D

EDIT: Realised that just Schubert is not much to go on - so I expanded the topic to all composers of the Romantic period.

Good idea, Q!

BTW, I think what we've been doing thus far on the forum has been very clever. Instead of thousands of threads each devoted to only one work, we have threads for entire works by one or many composers. This way, it will be easier to keep up with what goes on around here. I hope that this continues....I have a forum vacation (30 days) coming up as soon as the weather improves, so it will be nice to come back and not have to read hundreds of threads.  :)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on April 09, 2007, 09:08:05 AM
L'Archibudelli has a number of HIP recordings of romantic music - Brahms, Mendelssohn, Weber, Gade, Dvorak, Spohr. and Bruckner to name a few.  Unfortunately most of them are as scarce as hen's teeth and command obscene prices (though not as high as that Mozart album ;) )

Bunny, I know - it's hard and very expensive to piece all the L'Archibudelli issues together! :-\

Quote
Also for the Schubert Symphonies, there is the Brüggen cycle too.

Have you heard the Brüggen - if so, what do you think?

I forgot the mention another Schubert/ L'Archibudelli favourite, this time together with the Mozzafiato:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000002APO.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Harry on April 09, 2007, 09:44:14 AM
L'Archibudelli has a number of HIP recordings of romantic music - Brahms, Mendelssohn, Weber, Gade, Dvorak, Spohr. and Bruckner to name a few.  Unfortunately most of them are as scarce as hen's teeth and command obscene prices (though not as high as that Mozart album ;) )

Also for the Schubert Symphonies, there is the Brüggen cycle too.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000INAVQW.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_SS500_.jpg)

I am very sorry, but this set I have put in the dustbin some time ago. Dreadful, this deliberate artificial playing, the choice of tempi, phrasing, accents, the man is very concious of him self.
It's more Bruggen, than Schubert.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Harry on April 09, 2007, 09:46:39 AM
For the symphonies Jos van Immerseel (Sony) and for the masses Bruno Weil (Sony).

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00008PW45.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg)   


The Immerseel  for the symphonies are far to be prefered to the Bruggen rendition.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bunny on April 09, 2007, 11:08:26 AM
Harry, I agree with you about that!  However for the sake of completeness, they should also be mentioned.  And talking about complete listings, the Bruno Weil and The Classical Band recordings of some of the Schubert symphonies (5&6 and 7&8 ) are excellent too.  If you can find them, they are well worth the price (so long as it's within reason. ;D)

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B0000027CC.01._SCMZZZZZZZ_AA130_.jpg) (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B0000027UL.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Harry on April 09, 2007, 11:20:23 AM
Harry, I agree with you about that!  However for the sake of completeness, they should also be mentioned.  And talking about complete listings, the Bruno Weil and The Classical Band recordings of some of the Schubert symphonies (5&6 and 7&8 ) are excellent too.  If you can find them, they are well worth the price (so long as it's within reason. ;D)

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B0000027CC.01._SCMZZZZZZZ_AA130_.jpg) (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B0000027UL.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg)

Will try to find them, as I love these symphonies very much.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bunny on April 09, 2007, 11:21:12 AM
For the Trout quintet and the Arpeggione sonata L'Archibudelli and Van Immerseel (Sony),
and for the piano trios La Gaia Scienza (Winter & Winter).

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00000C3SB.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg)     (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/8693841.jpg)


That Trout Quintet is also available in SACD/hybrid but you have to order it from Japan. For some reason it was not released in the USA except in stereo to my knowledge.  Sound quality is excellent, too.

Another great L'Archibudelli recording which is very available in Asia and still available in Europe and the USA is the Dvorák New World and Old World Quintets.  That has become my favorite recording of those works.  I think it's the gut strings that gives it the extra warmth.  And I have been enjoying their recording of Bruckner which is now also available as an Arkivmusic cd licensed copy. Their Brahms String Sestets is also excellent and still widely available as well. :D

(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/190/00/2/3/442.jpg) (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000002APE.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg) (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000002BZM.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 09, 2007, 06:33:02 PM
The HIPsters are taking over the board!

And why not? ;D

For Schubert I'm very fond of these two discs:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/8035233.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/8169071.jpg)


Prégardien/Staier is the perfect combo in Winterreise. Both are sweet-toned and impassioned.



Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bunny on April 10, 2007, 07:51:03 AM
The Green cover Schubert is complemented by the orange covered Schubert.  Both cds are also available in the set with the blue cover.  This can make for very confused buying! 

(http://www.winterandwinter.com/typo3temp/pics/6ab82e2510.jpg)+ (http://www.winterandwinter.com/typo3temp/pics/6b1bc31c89.jpg) = (http://www.winterandwinter.com/typo3temp/pics/abb63d4a7b.jpg)

I have found that I really like all of the cds I have bought by La Gaia Scienza, including the Schumann and Brahms recordings pictured below.  They are both excellent, and easy to recommend. :D

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/43/788543.jpg)  (http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/22/429322.jpg)

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on April 11, 2007, 08:00:20 AM
I have found that I really like all of the cds I have bought by La Gaia Scienza, including the Schumann and Brahms recordings pictured below.  They are both excellent, and easy to recommend. :D

I already have that Brahms - excellent!
The Schumann is still on my wish list. :D

Wispelwey did a good recording of the cello sonatas (this is his 1st, he recently did a 2nd).

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000003UYF.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bunny on April 11, 2007, 09:26:34 AM
I already have that Brahms - excellent!
The Schumann is still on my wish list. :D

Wispelwey did a good recording of the cello sonatas (this is his 1st, he recently did a 2nd).

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000003UYF.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg)

Q

He and Komen did the Beethoven music for piano and cello as well.  It was not as well received as his later recording with Dejan Lazic, but that is an extraordinary recording which will be as revered as the Fournier/Kempff.

How does that recording compare to the Isserlis/Hough recording?  That is currently my favorite recording of that material even if it is on modern instruments.

You can hear a sample of the Brahms sonatas with Dejan Lazic at Channel Classics (http://www.channelclassics.com/). It sounds very impressive, and I'm sure it is going to garner a lot of critical applause.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 11, 2007, 12:18:36 PM
Along with Weil's Schubert these are a few of my favorite HIP Romantics:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/new/SchQM.jpg)  (http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/new/BrMack.jpg)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/new/SchuHan.jpg)  (http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/gmgpictures/SchumannQT.jpg)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/BruckHer.jpg)


Sarge
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2007, 12:57:50 PM
Heartily agree with the recs so far, particularly (of course) the L'Archibudelli Schuberts. And before they were calling themselves "L'Archibudelli", they were also recording on Vivarte without a real name ("Stradivarius Instruments from the Smithsonian Institution" ::) ) same forces though, and they did a brilliant String Quintet & Rondo in A D 438 (lovely work, rarely recorded at all). I was fortunate to pick it up on eBay for a very few $$$.

As for La Gaia Scienza, not only is their playing first class, but the recorded sound on that Winter & Winter (the green one) disk is as good as it gets.

My only HIP symphony set so far is the Hanover Band/Goodman, the playing is fine, but the reverberation and echo that we discussed in the Beethoven thread is worse yet on the Schubert cycle.

Sarge:  I have (and really like) the Scottish CO/Mackerras Brahms symphonies, when you say HIP here, you are talking about performance practice, not instruments, yes? They certainly use a smaller orchestra, which may sound strange to some who are used to the "stadium" versions, but it makes for a lovely ensemble, IMO.

I definitely need to look into those QM 4tets, "Rosamunde" is one of my very favorites! :)

8)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 12, 2007, 05:55:12 AM
Sarge: I have (and really like) the Scottish CO/Mackerras Brahms symphonies, when you say HIP here, you are talking about performance practice, not instruments, yes?

Mackerras employs some period instruments: narrow-bore trombones, rotary-valve trumpets. He doesn't use Brahms' preferred valveless horns but does use Vienna F horns instead of more modern horns. I don't think the strings use gut but in other respects they play in a HIP fashion: violins divided, using less vibrato and more portamento. The entire effect is refreshing and does sound very different. Anyone who complains about Brahms orchestration sounding "thick" should hear these performances.

Sarge

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bunny on April 12, 2007, 08:51:25 AM
Another Brahms recording:

Brahms and Krehl: Clarinet Quintets (Deux Quintettes dedié a Richard Mühlfeld) which can be found at Amazon (UK, Japan) as well as at ArkivMusic. 

It features the Jean-Claude Veilhan on period clarinet.

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on April 12, 2007, 10:38:31 AM
(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/3059618.jpg)

Not al Romantics - but I mention it anyway!  ;D
Super bargain.

CD1 Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart: String Quintet in C K515; String Quintet in G minor K516
CD 2 Ludwig van Beethoven: String Quintet in C Op.29; Septet for violin viola cello, clarinet, horn, bassoon & double bass in E flat major, Op.20
CD 3 Franz Schubert: Quintet in A ‘Trout Quintet’. Johann Nepomuk Hummel: Piano Quintet in E flat Op.87
CD 4 Franz Schubert: Octet for 2 violin viola cello, double-bass, clarinet, horn & bassoon in F major, D.803
CD 5 Felix Mendelssohn: String Quintet in A Op.18; Octet for 4 violins, 2 violas & 2 Cellos, in E flat Op.20
 
Monica Huggett, Pavlo Beznosiuk, Paul Boucher, Jolianne von Einem, Robert Salter violin, Roger Chase, Simon Whistler viola, Anthony Pleeth, Sebastien Comberti, Richard Lester cello, Chi-Chi Nwanoku double-bass, Anthony Pay clarinet, Anthony Halstead horn, Jeremy Ward bassoon, Cyril Huve fortepiano


Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: BachQ on April 12, 2007, 11:01:04 AM
EDIT: Realised that just Schubert is not much to go on - so I expanded the topic to all composers of the Romantic period.

Actually, Schubert is predominately a CLASSICAL-era composer . . . . . . (not Romantic) . . . . . .
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 13, 2007, 12:51:21 AM
Actually, Schubert is predominately a CLASSICAL-era composer . . . . . . (not Romantic) . . . . . .

I won't dispute the use of the word "predominately" but do want to point out that over 600 of Schubert's works are clearly Romantic (the songs). He really straddled both Classical and Romantic styles but "at the end of his life with the G major Quartet, the C major Symphony and the C major String Quintet, Schubert returns to classical principles in a manner almost as striking if not as complete as Beethoven" according to Charles Rosen in the The Classical Style. Schubert doesn't get a chapter or section to himself in that book but does in Rosen's The Romantic Generation. I think we can safely place him among the Romantics too even if he didn't plunge in all the way.

Sarge
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bunny on April 14, 2007, 05:35:35 AM
I won't dispute the use of the word "predominately" but do want to point out that over 600 of Schubert's works are clearly Romantic (the songs). He really straddled both Classical and Romantic styles but "at the end of his life with the G major Quartet, the C major Symphony and the C major String Quintet, Schubert returns to classical principles in a manner almost as striking if not as complete as Beethoven" according to Charles Rosen in the The Classical Style. Schubert doesn't get a chapter or section to himself in that book but does in Rosen's The Romantic Generation. I think we can safely place him among the Romantics too even if he didn't plunge in all the way.

Sarge

I think being predominantly romantic is a little like being predominantly pregnant. 

When I put any Schubert on after a recording by Haydn, there is no doubt in my mind that Schubert is squarely in the early romantic movement.  He fits there as comfortably as Caspar David Friederich and the Sorrows of young Werther.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: George on April 14, 2007, 08:15:30 AM
I think being predominantly romantic is a little like being predominantly pregnant. 

When I put any Schubert on after a recording by Haydn, there is no doubt in my mind that Schubert is squarely in the early romantic movement.  He fits there as comfortably as Caspar David Friederich and the Sorrows of young Werther.

FWIW, David Dubal classifies Schubert as a Romantic composer, as do I. That's simply how I hear him.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bunny on April 14, 2007, 09:37:56 AM
FWIW, David Dubal classifies Schubert as a Romantic composer, as do I. That's simply how I hear him.

FWIW, I haven't ever seen Schubert classified as a Classical or even Neo-Classic composer.  Anyway, if he's considered Neo-Classic, isn't that movement actually in the romantic tradition of antique revival styles?  Who would put an architect of the 19th century Gothic revival into the same category as the architects of Chartres Cathedral?

Let's just compromise and call Schubert Early Romantic rather than Late Classical.  To my ears he sounds Romantic, too.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on April 14, 2007, 10:10:33 AM
Actually, Schubert is predominately a CLASSICAL-era composer . . . . . . (not Romantic) . . . . . .

I think the whole issue is a non-starter... 8)


Speaking of Schubert - does somebody has this recording of violin sonatas?
The sample sounds superb!  :D

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/7237074.jpg) (http://www.zigzag-territoires.com/article.php3?id_article=316&lang=en)
            click picture for link

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 14, 2007, 10:38:28 AM
I think the whole issue is a non-starter... 8)


Speaking of Schubert - does somebody has this recording of violin sonatas?
The sample sounds superb!  :D

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/7237074.jpg) (http://www.zigzag-territoires.com/article.php3?id_article=316&lang=en)
            click picture for link

Q

No, but I do have the one on "Explore" by Jaap Schröder & Christopher Hogwood of the 3 sonatinas and the sonata. I think it's particularly good.

(http://www.explorerecords.com/images/packs173/EXP0015.jpg)

8)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on April 15, 2007, 02:12:32 AM
No, but I do have the one on "Explore" by Jaap Schröder & Christopher Hogwood of the 3 sonatinas and the sonata. I think it's particularly good.

(http://www.explorerecords.com/images/packs173/EXP0015.jpg)

8)

Thanks, Gurn. :)


Anyone thinks this HIP Schumann is a good idea?

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/HMA1951731.jpg)

Q

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bunny on April 15, 2007, 05:11:23 AM
Thanks, Gurn. :)


Anyone thinks this HIP Schumann is a good idea?

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/HMA1951731.jpg)

Q


You know, I saw that and the price was so low at Amazon that I just added it to the basket.  I felt Andreas Staier and Christophe Coin were not going to be awful and probably were going to be very interesting at least.  It only arrived last week and I haven't cracked the cellophane yet.

WRT to the Immerseel/Seiler Schubert: I have their Mozart which is wonderful.  (I should add that to the list of HIP Mozart as it's really a terrific recording.)  I doubt that their Schubert will not be quite good at the very least.  I don't know if it's reference though, and haven't seen it reviewed anywhere.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on April 15, 2007, 05:40:17 AM
You know, I saw that and the price was so low at Amazon that I just added it to the basket.  I felt Andreas Staier and Christophe Coin were not going to be awful and probably were going to be very interesting at least.  It only arrived last week and I haven't cracked the cellophane yet.

WRT to the Immerseel/Seiler Schubert: I have their Mozart which is wonderful.  (I should add that to the list of HIP Mozart as it's really a terrific recording.)  I doubt that their Schubert will not be quite good at the very least.  I don't know if it's reference though, and haven't seen it reviewed anywhere.

Bunny, I will waiting for your findings on the Schumann. :)

As for the Schubert violin sonatas, here is a review from Gramophone.
Although I recall reading a less ambiguous recommendation - could be in a magazine.

Q

Reviewed: Gramophone 10/2006, Duncan Druce
 
Period performances – and from precisely the right period, too

These sonatas date from 1816-17 and the choice of instruments is precisely appropriate: Midori Seiler plays a Viennese violin made in 1814 by Franz Geissenhof, while Jos van Immerseel’s piano is a copy by Detmar Hungerberg of another Viennese instrument dating from 1814, by Johann Peter Fritz.
The piano has a sweet, clear upper register, ideal for Schubert’s singing melodies, and attractively reedy bass notes. It also boasts a typical range of special effects – a muffled “moderato” pedal and a buzzing “bassoon” stop, heard to great effect in D408’s Minuet. The violin has a bright, penetrating sound (a character that’s emphasised by close recording) – there are places where a softer, warmer quality would have been welcome, in the trio of D574’s Scherzo, for example. All four sonatas sound delightfully animated, and in the wonderful opening Allegro of D574 Immerseel and Seiler achieve an elegant expressive quality that brings out perfectly each aspect of the music.

But not everything is quite so convincing: in the first two movements of D385 the many little expressive hesitations give a slightly mannered impression, and in D408’s finale I’m troubled by Seiler’s choice of note lengths – her second note seems extraordinarily short (Immerseel doesn’t follow suit) and the three chords at the first forte, played sostenuto, don’t blend with the piano. And though the booklet-note goes into detail about Spohr’s prescriptions for selective vibrato, Seiler’s use of the ornament, tasteful and restrained though it is, seems to belong to the 21st rather than the 19th century. However, these are personal reactions; it’s certainly an interesting, worthwhile disc.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bunny on April 15, 2007, 06:03:07 AM
For gramophone this is a very negative review; they have damned the recording with the faintest of praise!  That magazine habitually eschews plain speaking because of a needless respect for "gentility."   I'm going to wait until I have an opportunity to hear this unless I see a positive review from some one I am more familiar with.  At least it will give my poor wallet a chance to recover from recent adventures at Amazon.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Don on April 15, 2007, 07:22:41 AM
Thanks, Gurn. :)


Anyone thinks this HIP Schumann is a good idea?

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/HMA1951731.jpg)

Q



I've had the Herreweghe for a few years and always get much pleasure from it.  A winner!
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 15, 2007, 08:17:02 AM
I've had the Herreweghe for a few years and always get much pleasure from it.  A winner!

Thanks for the feedback on that, Don. I agree with Bunny, Coin and Staier can't likely combine on something and not be at the very least acceptable. I guess I'll follow popular opinion on this one and see if Amazon has it. :)

8)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Haffner on April 15, 2007, 08:20:55 AM
Actually, Schubert is predominately a CLASSICAL-era composer . . . . . . (not Romantic) . . . . . .


I hear this as well in Schubert's music, D. It's nice to notice that someone else hears it  :D

Schubert overall can sound more Mozart-ian than Beethoven-ian. To me, at least.

I wonder if Beethoven's late music dumbfounded Schubert...
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Don on April 15, 2007, 11:08:54 AM
Thanks for the feedback on that, Don. I agree with Bunny, Coin and Staier can't likely combine on something and not be at the very least acceptable. I guess I'll follow popular opinion on this one and see if Amazon has it. :)

8)

Also, another fine Herreweghe/Schumann entry are the symphonies 2 and 4.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bunny on April 16, 2007, 04:42:14 AM
Also, another fine Herreweghe/Schumann entry are the symphonies 2 and 4.

I'll be on the lookout for that; I need more HIP Schumann. ;D
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: JoshLilly on April 16, 2007, 06:29:43 AM
Having listened to tons of music from that time period, I really can't understand why people think that Beethoven's stuff would have been seen as bizarre or unusual to his contemporaries. There was certainly "weirder" stuff being written in his lifetime. For example, Czech composers in orchestral music were experimenting in some harsh sounds that would become more commonplace a couple of decades later. Even W.A. Mozart's older Italian contemporary, Muzio Clementi, wrote symphonies in Beethoven's time that contained more "futuristic" chord-work than Beethoven did. He liked using trombones, too.


"The other three movements are conceived with a similar feeling for size: Spada justifiably claims that the slow movement hints at Schumann and Brahms and that the rhythmic insistence of the minor-key Scherzo (which Clementi rather modestly entitled "Minuet") foreshadows Bruckner; throughout, too, I wonder whether Schubert knew it."  -Martin Anderson


Many moments in Clementi's symphonies are harmonically "thicker" than anything found in Beethoven's, using stuff fairly unusual for the time. And even then, I don't think they sounded shocking to anyone.

I think recordings of symphonies by Schubert, Schumann, and Beethoven with over-large orchestras on modern instruments have harmfully coloured people's perception of that time period in music. When I used to hear all the Beethoven symphonies performed under the baton of people like Karajan, Furtwängler, Bernstein... and more. You know, the big recordings people love so much. Well, I never really thought Beethoven's symphonies were all that great, and in fact, I thought he was just a bad orchestrator. Everything sounded like a mush at times. Then I got Gardiner's set... and everything sounds perfect, you can hear all these things that you don't even know are there with the modern orchestras. I think the 8th symphony suffers the most from a modern orchestra, and even more especially, the fourth movement... no matter what you do, a big modern orchestra just can't let you hear everything, it's just too big, the intricacies vanish into that huge sound.

I think modern orchestras playing symphonies of that time don't give the composers enough credit... if they had been writing for modern orchestras with modern instruments, the orchestration would have been completely different. I think my initial feeling "Beethoven was a bad orchestrator" was correct, based on the recordings I listened to; yes, if he had written those symphonies for the orchestras I was hearing, he wasn't very good at it. But the truth is, he wasn't doing that.

It's all opinion and personal taste, as to what people like more. For me, it was the opening of a whole new world to hear appropriately-sized and instrumented orchestras playing symphonies by these three composers. I went from "yeah, these symphonies are pretty good", to total ecstacy. With Schumann and Beethoven, that was due to Gardiner recordings. I kind of wish I'd never discovered Gardiner's Beethoven, though, as I can't even bear to listen to any modern recording any more, I just can't stand it, it sounds so bad to me, you can't hear all the "stuff" Beethoven was doing. Ever heard period-instrument, properly-scaled Rossini??  That's another interesting avenue to explore! Sounds "sharper", if that makes any sense. Neat stuff all around.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bunny on April 16, 2007, 08:29:33 AM
Having listened to tons of music from that time period, I really can't understand why people think that Beethoven's stuff would have been seen as bizarre or unusual to his contemporaries. There was certainly "weirder" stuff being written in his lifetime. For example, Czech composers in orchestral music were experimenting in some harsh sounds that would become more commonplace a couple of decades later. Even W.A. Mozart's older Italian contemporary, Muzio Clementi, wrote symphonies in Beethoven's time that contained more "futuristic" chord-work than Beethoven did. He liked using trombones, too.


"The other three movements are conceived with a similar feeling for size: Spada justifiably claims that the slow movement hints at Schumann and Brahms and that the rhythmic insistence of the minor-key Scherzo (which Clementi rather modestly entitled "Minuet") foreshadows Bruckner; throughout, too, I wonder whether Schubert knew it."  -Martin Anderson


Many moments in Clementi's symphonies are harmonically "thicker" than anything found in Beethoven's, using stuff fairly unusual for the time. And even then, I don't think they sounded shocking to anyone.

I think recordings of symphonies by Schubert, Schumann, and Beethoven with over-large orchestras on modern instruments have harmfully coloured people's perception of that time period in music. When I used to hear all the Beethoven symphonies performed under the baton of people like Karajan, Furtwängler, Bernstein... and more. You know, the big recordings people love so much. Well, I never really thought Beethoven's symphonies were all that great, and in fact, I thought he was just a bad orchestrator. Everything sounded like a mush at times. Then I got Gardiner's set... and everything sounds perfect, you can hear all these things that you don't even know are there with the modern orchestras. I think the 8th symphony suffers the most from a modern orchestra, and even more especially, the fourth movement... no matter what you do, a big modern orchestra just can't let you hear everything, it's just too big, the intricacies vanish into that huge sound.

I think modern orchestras playing symphonies of that time don't give the composers enough credit... if they had been writing for modern orchestras with modern instruments, the orchestration would have been completely different. I think my initial feeling "Beethoven was a bad orchestrator" was correct, based on the recordings I listened to; yes, if he had written those symphonies for the orchestras I was hearing, he wasn't very good at it. But the truth is, he wasn't doing that.

It's all opinion and personal taste, as to what people like more. For me, it was the opening of a whole new world to hear appropriately-sized and instrumented orchestras playing symphonies by these three composers. I went from "yeah, these symphonies are pretty good", to total ecstacy. With Schumann and Beethoven, that was due to Gardiner recordings. I kind of wish I'd never discovered Gardiner's Beethoven, though, as I can't even bear to listen to any modern recording any more, I just can't stand it, it sounds so bad to me, you can't hear all the "stuff" Beethoven was doing. Ever heard period-instrument, properly-scaled Rossini??  That's another interesting avenue to explore! Sounds "sharper", if that makes any sense. Neat stuff all around.

Try getting a hold of some of Osmo Vänskä's Beethoven symphonies and you will see that Beethoven translates beautifully to modern, full size orchestra.  If you don't like what you have heard of Beethoven by a full size orchestra, then you haven't heard it done well.  Vänskä has such precise control over his orchestra that they manage to play the pianissimos at an almost inaudible level.  Because they can do this, he obtains tremendous transparency so that all of the voices can be heard.  I love HIP Beethoven, but it's not the only way to do it.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on April 19, 2007, 11:32:48 AM
(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/8881331.jpg)

MENDELSSOHN A Midsummer Night's Dream, Hebrides Overture Fingal's Cave.
Sandrine Piau & Delphine Collot, La Chapelle Royale, Collegium Vocale Gent, Orchestre des Champs-Elysees
Philippe Herreweghe.


I have listened to this tonight - bought it on impulse this week.
I thought: Romantic composer + HIP + Herreweghe + Sandrine Piau = Nice. :)

And nice it is, very nice. Although have a some reservations on Herreweghe's relaxed take on this - it's sometimes too relaxed for my taste, when I miss the true Mendelssohnian frisson of Masur.
But here are a lot of advantages too: Herreweghe catches the sense of mystery in a perfect and subtle way. As always with Herreweghe: the orchestral sound and texture is gorgeous - very much enhanced by the period instruments. Their sound is a luxury I could get used to btw - I'd better be carefull.. 8)

Q

 

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bunny on April 20, 2007, 04:28:52 PM
I just received this, but haven't had a chance to listen yet.  For me, anything done by Pieter Wispelwey is going to be very interesting as he is a student of Anner Bijlsma.  He records material both on period cellos and modern construction cellos.  On this recording, he is accompanied by Paul Komen on a Fortepiano by Josef Riedel, Vienna, ca. 1865 and he plays a Bohemian Cello from the 19th century. 

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41B7Y3R5TAL._AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 20, 2007, 04:52:32 PM
I just received this, but haven't had a chance to listen yet.  For me, anything done by Pieter Wispelwey is going to be very interesting as he is a student of Anner Bijlsma.  He records material both on period cellos and modern construction cellos.  On this recording, he is accompanied by Paul Komen on a Fortepiano by Josef Riedel, Vienna, ca. 1865 and he plays a Bohemian Cello from the 19th century. 

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41B7Y3R5TAL._AA240_.jpg)

Interesting, Bunny. For me, I would be interested to hear your take on Komen (I already know Wispelwey). He recorded a complete Beethoven Sonatas cycle on one of those "can't get 'em in America" labels, like Stradivarius or Globe, one of those. Anyway, I friend in Europe was very high on them. Kindly let us know what you think of him. :)

8)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bunny on April 20, 2007, 06:53:05 PM
Interesting, Bunny. For me, I would be interested to hear your take on Komen (I already know Wispelwey). He recorded a complete Beethoven Sonatas cycle on one of those "can't get 'em in America" labels, like Stradivarius or Globe, one of those. Anyway, I friend in Europe was very high on them. Kindly let us know what you think of him. :)

8)

Actually, they also paired up for Beethoven's Complete Sonatas for Pianoforte and Cello.   I like that recording very much, if not as much as Wispelwey's later recording of the same material with Dejan Lazic.  I haven't heard anything by Komen alone, but some of his fortepiano sonata recordings are available at Amazon now.   I haven't seen them reviewed anywhere, but I must admit they look very, very tasty.  Although the standard has been set very high by Ronald Brautigam, there aren't enough HIP Beethoven sonatas around so these are very welcome.  Btw, the website gives this information about the fortepiano he uses on the Last Sonatas: fortepiano by Conrad Graf, Vienna c. 1830 from the collection of Edwin Beunk, Enschede, the Netherlands.  He uses a different fortepiano for each of these recordings.  How much do you respect your friend's opinion?  Do you think it's worth taking the plunge on his word alone?  Perhaps Que know more about them... PAGING QUE...


(http://www.russiandvd.com/store/assets/product_images/imgs/front/39541.jpg) (http://www.globerecords.nl/catalogue/images/thumb_zjlytbelxr_300.jpg) (http://www.globerecords.nl/catalogue/images/thumb_orzvvnydjq_300.jpg) (http://www.globerecords.nl/catalogue/images/thumb_ceklkyhcmu_300.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: George on April 21, 2007, 04:02:08 AM
Actually, they also paired up for Beethoven's Complete Sonatas for Pianoforte and Cello.   I like that recording very much, if not as much as Wispelwey's later recording of the same material with Dejan Lazic.  I haven't heard anything by Komen alone, but some of his fortepiano sonata recordings are available at Amazon now.   I haven't seen them reviewed anywhere, but I must admit they look very, very tasty.  Although the standard has been set very high by Ronald Brautigam, there aren't enough HIP Beethoven sonatas around so these are very welcome.  Btw, the website gives this information about the fortepiano he uses on the Last Sonatas: fortepiano by Conrad Graf, Vienna c. 1830 from the collection of Edwin Beunk, Enschede, the Netherlands.  He uses a different fortepiano for each of these recordings.  How much do you respect your friend's opinion?  Do you think it's worth taking the plunge on his word alone?  Perhaps Que know more about them... PAGING QUE...

Here's a link:
 Piano Sonatas: An Overview of Selected Recordings By Ron Drummond (http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/articles/beethoven/psonatas.html)


He loves Komen's LvB (taken from the bottom of that link):

"The biggest find here, however, is Paul Komen. He's recorded three discs of Beethoven sonatas for Globe, a disc of the three Opus 31 sonatas, a disc of Opera 53, 54, & 57, and a disc of the last three sonatas, Opera 109-111. He uses a different fortepiano on each recording, and in each case one that is roughly contemporary with the dates of composition of the works in question. The man's amazing. I find in his playing an ideal balancing of the many positive but in some hands mutually exclusive qualities that are traditionally cited in discussions of piano performance. Komen is alive to the deepest implications of this music, and has the skill and the touch in spades to bring it out. All three discs are just urgently recommended."
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bunny on April 21, 2007, 05:08:54 AM
George, this is wonderful news! I have been considering Malcolm Bilson's Cornell cycle which is ruinously expensive, very uneven, and with uneven sound quality as well.  This cycle should be just the thing. :)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 21, 2007, 06:12:43 AM
George, this is wonderful news! I have been considering Malcolm Bilson's Cornell cycle which is ruinously expensive, very uneven, and with uneven sound quality as well.  This cycle should be just the thing. :)

Bunny,
Yes, I have a good amount of respect for my friend's opinion: he is the singularly most critical person I ever ran across, and he only listens to HIP (also only to Beethoven, but that's a different story). He says that the best Beethoven fortepiano cycle is Badura-Skoda on Astreé, which can't be had now, and Komen is the next best. At that time (2 years ago), the Komen disks weren't available here. Now that they are, might well be the time to check them out. :)

8)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on April 29, 2007, 05:38:22 AM
I just got this recording of Brahms clarinet quintet with the London Haydn Quartet and Eric Hoeprich (Glossa).
For my post on the Mozart, click here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,232.msg12266.html#msg12266).

This is a stunning, invigorating and heartfelt performance.
Hoeprich steals the show with a gorgeous instrument, a copy of Richard Mühlfeld's clarinet - the clarinetist for whom Brahms wrote the piece. It is a probing performance that combines vitality and elegance with the autumnal character of this piece.
Super! :) Recommended.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/6049199.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bunny on April 29, 2007, 10:56:33 AM
Que, this is very good to know!  Have you heard the Veilhan -- Quintette Stadler recording, and if so how do they compare?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on April 29, 2007, 11:01:03 AM
Que, this is very good to know!  Have you heard the Veilhan -- Quintette Stadler recording, and if so how do they compare?
No, I haven't heard that - unfortunately.
Although I'm very happy and satisfied with this one for the Brahms, I'm seriously tempted to get the one with Veilhan too! :)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bunny on April 29, 2007, 11:12:21 AM
Que, the Veilhan recording of the Brahms clarinet quintet is on the Mozart Clarinet quintet recording you posted in the Mozart thread!  Have you not listened to it yet?  I don't believe that Veilhan and the quintet would have recorded the same material again, and the label is also the same.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/4809038.jpg)

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on April 29, 2007, 11:18:54 AM
Que, the Veilhan recording of the Brahms clarinet quintet is on the Mozart Clarinet quintet recording you posted in the Mozart thread!  Have you not listened to it yet?  I don't believe that Veilhan and the quintet would have recorded the same material again, and the label is also the same.

I pictured that because that is its present incarnation - I have a whole Mozart/clarinet box on K617 that includes the previous coupling with the clarinet concerto, conducted by Malgoire (which is not so hot btw). :)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bunny on April 29, 2007, 11:38:52 AM
I pictured that because that is its present incarnation - I have a whole Mozart/clarinet box on K617 that includes the previous coupling with the clarinet concerto, conducted by Malgoire (which is not so hot btw). :)

Q

Out of the box, which recordings would you recommend?  Is this the box set which you refer to?

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/31NHTMY7Q9L._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bunny on May 07, 2007, 09:13:13 AM
Here's another great recording from L'Archibudelli: Schubert's Quintet in C major, D.956.  Very highly recommended! Unfortunately, a picture isn't available.

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on May 07, 2007, 08:05:59 PM
Here's another great recording from L'Archibudelli: Schubert's Quintet in C major, D.956.  Very highly recommended! Unfortunately, a picture isn't available.

Hear, hear! Get moving everybody! ;D
 And go here. (http://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Quintet-D956-Op163-Rondo/dp/B0000027BY/ref=sr_1_1/002-5667212-9080808?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1178600636&sr=1-1)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on June 02, 2007, 03:31:00 AM
I noticed this issue on fortepianist Bart van Oort's site (http://www.bartvanoort.nl/index.php?id=1).
Especially the complete Chopin nocturnes played by an excellent player like Bart on a Pleyel and a Erard looks very atttactive!

Somebody here knows and cares to comment on this one?
Thanks!  :)

Q

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/8539701.jpg)

The Art of the Nocturne in the Nineteenth Century
Brilliant Classics 92202/1-2-3-4, December 2003.
CD I: John Field: Nocturnes.
Bart van Oort, fortepiano Broadwood 1823.
CD II: Chopin Nocturnes I
Bart van Oort, fortepiano Pleyel 1842.
Nocturnes op. 9, op 15, op. 32, op. 62, op. 72/1, op. posth c# minor
CD III: Chopin Nocturnes II
Bart van Oort, fortepiano Erard 1837.
Nocturnes op. 27, op. 37, op. 48, op. 55, op. posth c minor
CD IV: 19th century Nocturnes
Bart van Oort, fortepiano Erard 1837.
Nocturnes by Pleyel, Kalkbrenner, Clara Schumann, Lefèbure-Wély, E. Weber, Alkan, Glinka, Szymanowska, Dobrzynski.

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: lukeottevanger on June 02, 2007, 03:53:17 AM
I noticed this issue on fortepianist Bart van Oort's site (http://www.bartvanoort.nl/index.php?id=1).
Especially the complete Chopin nocturnes played by an excellent player like Bart on a Pleyel and a Erard looks might atttactive!

Somebody here knows and cares to comment on this one?
Thanks!  :)

Q

The Art of the Nocturne in the Nineteenth Century
Brilliant Classics 92202/1-2-3-4, December 2003.
CD I: John Field: Nocturnes.
Bart van Oort, fortepiano Broadwood 1823.
CD II: Chopin Nocturnes I
Bart van Oort, fortepiano Pleyel 1842.
Nocturnes op. 9, op 15, op. 32, op. 62, op. 72/1, op. posth c# minor
CD III: Chopin Nocturnes II
Bart van Oort, fortepiano Erard 1837.
Nocturnes op. 27, op. 37, op. 48, op. 55, op. posth c minor
CD IV: 19th century Nocturnes
Bart van Oort, fortepiano Erard 1837.
Nocturnes by Pleyel, Kalkbrenner, Clara Schumann, Lefèbure-Wély, E. Weber, Alkan, Glinka, Szymanowska, Dobrzynski.



Not exaclty this set, but nearly - Brilliant released the first two discs (the Field and the first of the Chopin) a few years ago. I have it and like it very much, but, put it this way, I file it under Field, not under Chopin. I am an advocate of HIP, but there is a balance to be struck. I will tend to prefer HIP in repertoire where I feel a fine performance on the 'correct' instrument outweighs (for matters of musical enjoyment, not on a priggish historical basis) the benefits of a star performer playing a modern but inadequate instrument. But when we get to the realms of Chopin I don't think that is necessarily the case; the instruments are similar enough for the difference to make less difference, if you see what I mean, and so the interpretation becomes more of a factor. Which is as much as to say - Oort plays very beautifully, but he is outclassed by the obvious names.

However, there are interesting things to hear in this set, and the sound of the Pleyel is revealing indeed; I'm just spinning op 15/1 to remind myself; the sound is somewhat veiled and yet quite hard-edged; it's hard to tell if it's van Oort or his instrument who are missing the delicate poetry of the outer sections of this particular nocturne (which is why I chose it), but in the tumultuous inner section the clear and refined tone of the Pleyel scores a big plus - van Oort can really let rip, doesn't need to rein himself in, without fear of the r.h. semiquavers losing definition or becoming overwhelming.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bunny on June 02, 2007, 07:36:08 PM
I noticed this issue on fortepianist Bart van Oort's site (http://www.bartvanoort.nl/index.php?id=1).
Especially the complete Chopin nocturnes played by an excellent player like Bart on a Pleyel and a Erard looks very atttactive!

Somebody here knows and cares to comment on this one?
Thanks!  :)


Q

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/8539701.jpg)





I bought this a while ago for the Field more than for the Chopin.  I actually wanted just the Field set, but the price of the combined set was too good to pass up.  As I recall, the set was quite good both in terms of the playing and the instruments used, but I haven't listened to it in more than a year so I'll give it another spin.  It has the advantage of including all of Field's Nocturnes as well as works by other less well known composers and of course, Chopin's Nocturnes in one tidy set.  While lukevanottenger is correct when he states that van Oort may not be in the same class as Horowitz, Rubenstein and other Chopin specialists, his work is quite fine and the choice of instruments is very appropriate for the music.  I believe the set was well reviewed by classicstoday, but I may be mistaken about that.

Sound quality was excellent digital stereo, but not dsd.  I was quite pleased with the set and I also enjoyed the notes written by van Oort very much.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on June 02, 2007, 09:05:22 PM
Luke, Bunny, thank you both very much for your helpful comments! :)

I think I'm going to listen to some samples on the net to see if it's wothwhile - my primary interest would be the Chopin. I'm open to any other recommendations of HIP Chopin recordings! (Love the gorgeous sound of those Erards and Pleyels)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on June 03, 2007, 12:20:59 AM
Try this

(http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/1143/chopincalliopejc4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

http://www.preludeklassiekemuziek.nl/stream/nov06_chopin_calliope_B.html (http://www.preludeklassiekemuziek.nl/stream/nov06_chopin_calliope_B.html)

Janusz Olejniczak also recorded a few excellent HIP Chopin recordings for Opus 111.  Mazurkas, Polonaises, in addition to several mixed programs.  "At Home" from the label's Chopin series was also used as the OST for the film "La note bleu" in which Olejniczak plays Chopin himself  ;D  (Leonhardt starred as Bach himself in a film, too.  Never saw the film though.) Coin conducts the Larghetto from cto2.

Luc Devos also recorded all nocturnes for Ricercar.  But they may only be found used now I think.

BTW, obviously I like the Van Oort nocturnes a lot more than others do - his Mozart and Haydn is even better though.  Still, for those with less adventurous tastes, the Boegner set above may be a surer bet.   Beautifully recorded.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on June 03, 2007, 12:55:05 AM
HIP Liszt - Immerseel recorded the orchestral (and some concertante) works for Zigzag-Territories.  Has transparent sound for an orchestra of this size.  Dutch pianist Rian de Waal plays the solo part for the Totentanz.
Perhaps even more interesting are the four solo albums recorded by Thomas Hitzelberger.   The first two, on the Cybele label, are SACD's, but all four were recorded using the 1873 Steingraeber "Liszt-Klavier" now in Beyreuth.  The fourth, on the Ambroney label, has the b minor sonata, but the first one, with the Italian Annee de Pelerinage, is overwhelming in hi-res sound.   I rarely have any patience for Liszt on modern pianos, but this had me transfixed for over an hour (not even the bangings bothered me)!

(http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/5946/sacd150302zc3.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on June 03, 2007, 01:30:21 AM
Try this

(http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/1143/chopincalliopejc4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

http://www.preludeklassiekemuziek.nl/stream/nov06_chopin_calliope_B.html (http://www.preludeklassiekemuziek.nl/stream/nov06_chopin_calliope_B.html)

Janusz Olejniczak also recorded a few excellent HIP Chopin recordings for Opus 111.  Mazurkas, Polonaises, in addition to several mixed programs.  "At Home" from the label's Chopin series was also used as the OST for the film "La note bleu" in which Olejniczak plays Chopin himself  ;D  (Leonhardt starred as Bach himself in a film, too.  Never saw the film though.) Coin conducts the Larghetto from cto2.

Luc Devos also recorded all nocturnes for Ricercar.  But they may only be found used now I think.

BTW, obviously I like the Van Oort nocturnes a lot more than others do - his Mozart and Haydn is even better though.  Still, for owners of less adventurous tastes, the Boegner set above may be a surer bet.   Beautifully recorded.

fl.traverso, thanks for that! :)

That sample of the Chopin/ Boegner sounds bl***y marvelous. Not only the instrument but great playing as well. The combination makes for the most bubling and sparkling, fresh and crystal clear Chopin I've heard.

Should be mandatory listing for members who think it doesn't really matter if all music is played on a Steinway and that modern Steinways all sound the same....  8)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on June 03, 2007, 02:09:05 AM

 (Leonhardt starred as Bach himself in a film, too.  Never saw the film though.)


This one Chronicle of AMB (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1325.0.html#new)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bunny on June 03, 2007, 04:56:41 AM
fl.traverso, thanks for that! :)

That sample of the Chopin/ Boegner sounds bl***y marvelous. Not only the instrument but great playing as well. The combination makes for the most bubling and sparkling, fresh and crystal clear Chopin I've heard.

Should be mandatory listing for members who think it doesn't really matter if all music is played on a Steinway and that modern Steinways all sound the same....  8)

Q


But modern Steinways do all sound the same. ;)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: George on June 03, 2007, 05:02:48 AM
fl.traverso, thanks for that! :)

That sample of the Chopin/ Boegner sounds bl***y marvelous. Not only the instrument but great playing as well. The combination makes for the most bubling and sparkling, fresh and crystal clear Chopin I've heard.

Should be mandatory listing for members who think it doesn't really matter if all music is played on a Steinway and that modern Steinways all sound the same....  8)

Q


I agree that it is nice. Sounds too closely miked, however. I can hear all kinds of extraneous noises.  :-\
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on June 03, 2007, 06:23:19 AM
I agree that it is nice. Sounds too closely miked, however. I can hear all kinds of extraneous noises.  :-\


That's why all modern Steinways sound the same.  No extraneous noises!  :D

BTW, that preludeklassiekmuziek.nl (provider of the sound sample file) is a real HIP joint  ;D   Worth checking out. 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bonehelm on June 03, 2007, 08:24:59 AM
But modern Steinways do all sound the same. ;)

Hamburgers and New Yorkers don't sound the same. (Did I just say hamburger? :P)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on June 03, 2007, 11:02:01 AM
Hamburgers and New Yorkers don't sound the same. (Did I just say hamburger? :P)

Both Hamburgers and New Yorkers from the Steinway family are such huge black heavy
hammering machines, I always visualise a concert pianist onstage like Siegfried fighting
a monstrous dragon several times his size.  ;D
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bunny on June 03, 2007, 05:52:43 PM
Hamburgers and New Yorkers don't sound the same. (Did I just say hamburger? :P)

I shall amend the statement: All Hamburg D Steinways sound the same.  All NY Steinways of the same size sound the same.  All Boston Pianos sound the same.  All Yamahas sound the same.  All Baldwins sound the same.  I don't know about Bechsteins, but I suspect that all Bechsteins of the same size sound the same as well.  Nowadays, when piano makers craft a piano, they want one piano to sound as much like every other piano they manufacture as they can possibly make it sound.  This is what a piano maker defines as consistency of quality.  You won't find a little old piano maker in a workshop working on carving out a sound board, seeking out rare and exotic woods for the case and then lovingly decorating it with designs in marquetry or even painting it with garlands and cupids.  He's not going to experiment with different type of alloys for strings or try out different materials for hammers or dampers, or tinker with actions to see what he can make that will be new and revolutionary. He's not going to experiment because as far as he knows, the technology has already achieved its ultimate form.  Pianos aren't made so that each one will have a unique tone.  Harpsichords on the other hand were individually crafted with differences in design that give each one a slightly different tone.  That's something that's been lost for pianos. 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on June 07, 2007, 03:00:18 AM
http://www.janvermeulen.be/ (http://www.janvermeulen.be/)

Four discs worth of Schubert solo music on a Nanette Streicher instrument.
(Nanette Streicher was the daughter of Andreas Stein of Augsburg who
married Andreas Streicher and opened a new workshop in Vienna in early
19th century.  Her instruments were said to be among Beethoven's favourite.)

Haven't heard any of this - indeed the second volume was only recently
released.  But his previous Schubert recordings on the Vanguard Classic
(which I have not heard either) and Beethoven (cello sonata 3 and variations
with Wieland Kuijken, which I have heard) seem to be very favourably
reviewed. 

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on June 07, 2007, 10:53:14 PM
http://www.janvermeulen.be/ (http://www.janvermeulen.be/)

Four discs worth of Schubert solo music on a Nanette Streicher instrument.

Haven't heard any of this - indeed the second volume was only recently
released. 

Just happened to see volume I this week in the shop, but didn't listen to it.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/6645425.jpg)
          samples here (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/6645425/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist) or here (http://www4.fnac.com/Shelf/article.aspx?PRID=1931526&OrderInSession=1&Mn=1&SID=ce7c8bb9-faf2-f67e-b5b5-184a8c273b91&TTL=090620070939&Origin=FnacAff&Ra=-29&To=0&Nu=1&UID=0509C2753-2531-8594-199B-A869CF4F7CCA&Fr=0)


I'll be following this with interest since I'm currently going through Paul Badura-Skoda's Schubert sonatas cycle (Arcana)!  :)
I discovered that Jan Vermeulen earlier recorded a large amount of Schubert (7 CD's) on the Belgian label Passacaille (http://www.passacaille.be/), now probably inactive/defunct - their website doesn't seem updated after 2005...


BTW- inspired by another thread (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1421.0.html): does anyone know of a HIP recording of the Chopin concertos?

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on June 07, 2007, 11:49:43 PM

BTW- inspired by another thread (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1421.0.html): does anyone know of a HIP recording of the Chopin concertos?

Q


There are always the recordings by E. Ax/ MacKerras/ OAE on Sony.  I have them but really never care for them that much at all.  I feel that Ax was not discovering anything (as he implies in the booklet essays) with his HIP experience and MacKerras didn't help that much even though it is obvious that he tried.  Not recommended by me.

Janusz Olejniczak made a HIP recording of the Concerto 2 in a "reconstruction album" for Chopin's 1830 concert in Warsaw:
(http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/4345/41yafef9swlss500un2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
amazonuklink (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Chopin-Warsaw-Concert-Fryderyk-Franciszek/dp/B00001NTKI/ref=sr_1_4/026-4183889-9563643?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1181291358&sr=8-4)

In comparison to Ax, Olejniczak's playing is much more alive to the expressive possibilities afforded by an Erard fortepiano in good condition, and Christoph Spering's direciton makes the orchestral part sound quite exciting as well - not just some foil for the soloist's show. 

I know of a Nimbus recording of Concerto I (Christopher Kite/Roy Goodman) but it is not really adequate enough in the technical departments (quality of the instrument/playing/sound) for a trackdown. 

Bruggen recently recorded both concertos with Dang Thai Son - not widely distributed but apparently available directly from Orchestra of the 18th Century... :) 

(http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/4640/screenshot1fj8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on June 08, 2007, 12:13:25 AM

(http://host.com.pl/nifc/img_prod/2_12.jpg)

The Dang Thai Son/ Brüggen Chopin seems also to be availble at the Polish Fryderyk Chopin Institute (http://host.com.pl/nifc/?produkt=2_12) ($18), apparently live recordings.
Too bad they don't provide sound samples...


Shipping charges by the Chopin Institute are 29Euro for one disc! :o  :(
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on June 08, 2007, 12:24:21 AM
And 20 euros to an European destination - for a 13 euros CD! ;D
I'd better mail the Orchestra then... :)

Q

Expecting your review very soon...  ;)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bunny on June 08, 2007, 05:08:02 AM

There are always the recordings by E. Ax/ MacKerras/ OAE on Sony.  I have them but really never care for them that much at all.  I feel that Ax was not discovering anything (as he implies in the booklet essays) with his HIP experience and MacKerras didn't help that much even though it is obvious that he tried.  Not recommended by me.

Janusz Olejniczak made a HIP recording of the Concerto 2 in a "reconstruction album" for Chopin's 1830 concert in Warsaw:
(http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/4345/41yafef9swlss500un2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
amazonuklink (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Chopin-Warsaw-Concert-Fryderyk-Franciszek/dp/B00001NTKI/ref=sr_1_4/026-4183889-9563643?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1181291358&sr=8-4)

In comparison to Ax, Olejniczak's playing is much more alive to the expressive possibilities afforded by an Erard fortepiano in good condition, and Christoph Spering's direciton makes the orchestral part sound quite exciting as well - not just some foil for the soloist's show. 

I know of a Nimbus recording of Concerto I (Christopher Kite/Roy Goodman) but it is not really adequate enough in the technical departments (quality of the instrument/playing/sound) for a trackdown. 

Bruggen recently recorded both concertos with Dang Thai Son - not widely distributed but apparently available directly from Orchestra of the 18th Century... :) 

(http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/4640/screenshot1fj8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Excellent Largo as I recall. ;)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: paul on July 09, 2007, 02:53:19 AM
That Trout Quintet is also available in SACD/hybrid but you have to order it from Japan. For some reason it was not released in the USA except in stereo to my knowledge.  Sound quality is excellent, too.

Another great L'Archibudelli recording which is very available in Asia and still available in Europe and the USA is the Dvorák New World and Old World Quintets.  That has become my favorite recording of those works.  I think it's the gut strings that gives it the extra warmth.  And I have been enjoying their recording of Bruckner which is now also available as an Arkivmusic cd licensed copy. Their Brahms String Sestets is also excellent and still widely available as well. :D

(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/190/00/2/3/442.jpg) (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000002APE.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg) (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000002BZM.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg)

Does the New World and Old World Quintets CD include the Op.77 Quintet? I'm very interested in hearing that CD now!
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on August 16, 2007, 11:33:10 AM
I've been exploring some HIP recordings with Dutch violinist Leertouwer, after I found his Beethoven sonatas very successful. A strong recommendation for this recording of the Mendelssohn piano trios. I never heard such fresh, natural, and engaging performances. Perfectly balanced in terms of sound - thanks to the period instruments, which include an Erard grand piano from 1837. Perfect collaboration between the players. This easily replaces the performance by the Florestan Trio (Hyperion) as my favourite recording.
Hardly any on-line audio samples around, so I've uploaded two mvts.

(http://www.globerecords.nl/catalogue/images/thumb_osutuyxwsm_300.jpg)

Opus 49 - 1st mvt (http://www.mediafire.com/?7x4ns1iuqmo)


Opus 66 - 3rd mvt (http://www.mediafire.com/?2xip91tmtkj)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: hautbois on September 11, 2007, 08:33:58 AM
Thanks Q for reminding me about this thread!

3 or 4 years ago, when i was still less akeen towards standard repertoire, the only thing i could tell of , Mendelssohn was his Violin concerto, which i came to appreciate as a piece of muzak (boy how wrong was i until i discovered Mullova/Gardiner HIP!). How things have changed, and today, Mendelssohn is one of my favourite composers, and i am just starting to discover his basic output. If one knows his 2 magnum piano concertos,
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51y8GEKuzvL._SS500_.jpg)
(Perahia, Marriner/ASMF, NOT HIP, but SOOOOO GOOD)
one should be able to appreciate the fact that he has 2 lesser known works of equal or even better quality:
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w300/front/0/8412964.jpg)
I admit that the reason why i acquired this is because it has HIP stamped all over it (Concert Koln is one of my favourite ensembles, whether it be period or non), and i am a big fan of that HIP sound, whether or not it helps in a performance. I am also not an expert in HIP, sorry to say, but surely, these guys know how to play Mendelssohn's music. We all know his signature gestures when it comes to style, and these 2 concertos are absolutely typical Mendelssohn - skillfully written, full of bravura, propulsion that is similar to the Mannheim rocket, full of ideas etc. I actually like the sound of the fortepiano, because modern pianists tend to take advantage of the modern piano and play with less articulation (in reference to speech), and a fortepiano, no matter what you do, it always says something clearly, which is another reason to love and hate the harpsichord. I tend to fall in love with performances that have something to say, to be extremely extrovert, to be on the edge, which is why i adore Harnoncourt. The Concerto Koln does all the things necessary for me to fall in love with their playing, and Andreas Staier is THE man. In this recording, being the virtuoso IS serving the purpose of the music, and i am not ashamed to say that. Same applies to violinist Rainer Kussmaul. I don't know if this is OOP, but if you see it by any chance, grab it instantly!

Howard, happy birthday to me.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: karlhenning on September 11, 2007, 08:39:31 AM
Quote
Excellent Largo as I recall.

Key  8)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: hautbois on September 11, 2007, 08:52:21 AM



Do you have your birthday my friend?
Well in that case




Thankyou very much!  ;D

Howard
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: George on September 11, 2007, 07:22:16 PM
Thankyou very much!  ;D

Howard

Please join our Virgo gang!  8)

Happy birthday, mine was 9 days ago.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Brian on September 13, 2007, 12:28:43 PM
Try this

(http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/1143/chopincalliopejc4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

http://www.preludeklassiekemuziek.nl/stream/nov06_chopin_calliope_B.html (http://www.preludeklassiekemuziek.nl/stream/nov06_chopin_calliope_B.html)

Janusz Olejniczak also recorded a few excellent HIP Chopin recordings for Opus 111.  Mazurkas, Polonaises, in addition to several mixed programs.  "At Home" from the label's Chopin series was also used as the OST for the film "La note bleu" in which Olejniczak plays Chopin himself  ;D  (Leonhardt starred as Bach himself in a film, too.  Never saw the film though.) Coin conducts the Larghetto from cto2.
 
I've just listened to that sample and also to his C sharp minor Op. Post., and have only one question - where on earth did you find this disc??
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on September 13, 2007, 09:08:37 PM
Don't think masolino is still around. You can find the disc at crotchet

No I am not around often enough to post now, but it feels great to be remembered
by some.  :)  I have enjoyed the Boegner recording for over a decade - since
when it was first available at full price I think :-\   That would make me very hipped in my
listening to romantic music I know, but I am very proud of it :)   

(http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/539/a308wm3.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

I have just listened to this and can heartily recommend it to all.  Beautiful, clean sound,
and the near ideal seperation of five instruments makes the composer's magical writing
in harmonies quite palpable.  Mmm... :)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on October 30, 2007, 09:54:06 AM
(http://www.cdmail.fr/jaquettes/cd/recto/3464858013082xr.gif)

I have just listened to this and can heartily recommend it to all.  Beautiful, clean sound,
and the near ideal seperation of five instruments makes the composer's magical writing
in harmonies quite palpable.  Mmm... :)

I got this as well - it's amazing!  :-* Marvelous! Superb!  ;D
I already have the exceptionally fine HIP version by the L'Archibudelli (Sony), and this by the Festetics Quartet is quite different in concept. While the L'Archibudelli give Schubert's string quintet a feeling of urgency - anxiety even - the Festetics take a more mellow and lyrical approach: it's fun and exitement with a clear undertone of melancholy, but not "Angst". Like fl.traverso already pointed out: perfect separation and articulation of the instruments. Rhythmically flowing, beautiful lush sound by these Hungarian players, naturally recorded.

Thoroughly recommended, maybe not a replacement for the L'Archibudelli but as an equal alternative approach.

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on January 15, 2008, 03:28:33 AM
A good HIP performance of the Brahms clarinet trio would be nice!

(http://www.klassik-heute.de/covers/9/18622g.jpg)


A very postive review (10/10/10) on Klassik Heute in (at times hilarious) translation by Babelfish. Click HERE (http://www.klassik-heute.de/kh/3cds/20080115_18622.shtml) for the original in German.

"This recording of the piano trios Op in. 114 (with clarinet) and A major Op posth. is in many respect more than a high-quality reproduction of remaining treasures from the official and halfofficial heritage of an important composer. First one can congratulate the Abegg Trio with Ulrich Beetz, Birgit Erichson and Gerrit Zitterbard, who have played for 30 years now in unchanged personal setting together. 2006 celebrated the chamber music ensemble this rare anniversary - and one must already at alliances like the Quartetto italiano, the Beaux Arts Trio or the Trio di Trieste, in order to find similarly "durable" collaborations of - as far as one knows - not necessarily easy characters to get along with. Congratulations from this side!
A second feature, this edition interesting realises - beyond the average of the standard occupation in Brahms recordings - is the choice of the instruments. One searched, one researched (similarly as with the recording of the horn trio and the adaptation of the sextet) after suitable, performance-practically authentic instruments from the time of origin of the works. Supported of Gert Hecher, two fortepianos from the Viennese workshop Johann Baptist Streicher could be used from the years 1851 and 1876. Two instruments with Viennese mechanics, with leather on the hammer heads. Brahms possessed a Streicher fortepiano, might thus during composing have been affected by its sound characteristics.
The string instruments come from Lupo (1821) and Castagnieri (1747), the clarinet is the copy of the instrument that Muehlfeld - the resident clarinetist of Brahms - used. As Gerrit Zitterbard in the accompanying text states, it concerns a clarinet copied by Ottensheimer, with "different flap mechanics and has other sound characteristics than later clarinet systems."
Thus the best, outstanding conditions for interpretations with a high content of colour and flavour. Virtuos in the sense of responsible animatingness, watchful in mutual demanding and granting, in the dia.-logical as in temporarily Solisti, as it internal vital stories of the two works in the strong one as in Elegi close put (works, which at the beginning and at the end of Brahms of ' chamber music effort!).
Peter Cossé (15.01.2008


Looks interesting with that Streicher "Hammerflügel".
The inclusion of the op. post. piano trio is an attractive feature as well. This is claimed to be a trio Brahms wrote in his younger years and escaped the fire, only to be discovered after his death (he reworked other trios later in life). The authorship by Brahms cannot be proven beyond any doubt, but just listening to it was enough for me: it's Brahms all right. Trio Fontenay (Teldec) also recorded this "4th" (maybe "1st" would be better) piano trio.

Anyone heard this Tacet disc? It will go on my list.

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: BorisG on January 15, 2008, 01:00:20 PM
A good HIP performance of the Brahms clarinet trio would be nice!

(http://www.klassik-heute.de/covers/9/18622g.jpg)


Anyone heard this Tacet disc? It will go on my list.

Q

Not just good, Que. It is exceptional. ;) Lucid and energetic interpretations. Especially for the Clarinet Trio, the star work on this occasion.

Tone is pleasing, as warm as HIP can be. The anti-HIP need not worry.

Tacet engineers do their usual crystal clear thing. The slightly close micing is handled well. It adds to the positive energy.

Energy is big for me in the Brahms Clarinet Trio. Another favorite of mine is with Portal, Lodeon, and Dalberto.

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on January 15, 2008, 01:30:34 PM
A good HIP performance of the Brahms clarinet trio would be nice!

And there is (at least) one before this: Alan Hacker, Richard Burnett, Jennifer Ward-Clarke on Amon Ra
coupled w/ Clarinet sonatas.

Burnett probably played on an Erard (I can't recall exactly), which was not an unusual choice even for Brahms himself.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: orbital on January 15, 2008, 03:19:32 PM
I guess this belongs here as well:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Xd3bNHj2L._AA240_.jpg)
The piano used here is fro 1881, so not exactly HIP, but not exactly modern either  ;D Presumably the Erard had gone under some changes since Chopin's time, but this is essentially a period instrument sounding still very different from the grands of recent decades.
I quite like the playing all around, and it is good that we have a selection of nocturnes, preludes and etudes as well as the Barcarole and the 4th Ballade (which is the highlight of the disc IMO, since it sheds new light on the work. Rather than having the grand sound of the concert arena, the ballade is more intimate, still with its wide dynamic range).

I hear that she has a very decent Ravel disc out there too, but I think that is done on a modern piano. It would be intersting to record some Ravel on a late 19th century Erard, just like the one Ravel himself used.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on January 15, 2008, 03:24:39 PM
It would be intersting to record some Ravel on a late 19th century Erard, just like the one Ravel himself used.

Immerseel et al. did a Ravel disc featuring not just a period piano (Erard 1905) but a period orchestra as well.  A beautiful disc overall. 

(http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/6038/3760009291195rh7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Don on January 15, 2008, 03:31:37 PM
I guess this belongs here as well:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Xd3bNHj2L._AA240_.jpg)
The piano used here is fro 1881, so not exactly HIP, but not exactly modern either  ;D Presumably the Erard had gone under some changes since Chopin's time, but this is essentially a period instrument sounding still very different from the grands of recent decades.
I quite like the playing all around, and it is good that we have a selection of nocturnes, preludes and etudes as well as the Barcarole and the 4th Ballade (which is the highlight of the disc IMO, since it sheds new light on the work. Rather than having the grand sound of the concert arena, the ballade is more intimate, still with its wide dynamic range).

I hear that she has a very decent Ravel disc out there too, but I think that is done on a modern piano. It would be intersting to record some Ravel on a late 19th century Erard, just like the one Ravel himself used.

I also think highly of the Forte/Chopin disc, but I hear an irritating static on headphones.  Do you hear it also?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: orbital on January 15, 2008, 03:57:46 PM
I also think highly of the Forte/Chopin disc, but I hear an irritating static on headphones.  Do you hear it also?
Yes I do. The higher the note, the higher the static as a matter of fact.

(I have the amazon download of the album, not the actual CD, I just checked the clips on amazon and they have the static too)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bonehelm on January 16, 2008, 05:08:52 PM
I would like to hear HIP Mahler or Stravinsky  ;D
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on January 16, 2008, 05:27:09 PM
I would like to hear HIP Mahler or Stravinsky  ;D
Well it is only a matter of time before Norrington or Gardiner get to Mahler, maybe even Stravinsky. Norrington actually got as far as Tchaikovsky and Bruckner (I think there is a Bruckner 3rd out there somewhere). Not sure about Stravinsky, he left a boarload of his own conducting his music so I suppose that is the performance standard.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on January 16, 2008, 10:45:39 PM
Well it is only a matter of time before Norrington or Gardiner get to Mahler, maybe even Stravinsky. Norrington actually got as far as Tchaikovsky and Bruckner (I think there is a Bruckner 3rd out there somewhere). Not sure about Stravinsky, he left a boarload of his own conducting his music so I suppose that is the performance standard.

Herreweghe recorded Mahler's Wunderhorn lieder for HM already.  Symphonies will follow I believe.  Immerseel has also recorded the Rachmaninoff suites on period pianos, so yes there is room for HIP recording of at least early Stravinsky.  In addition, two albums recorded by Kenneth Slowik with Smithsonian Chamber Players (gut strings), titled respectively "Metamorphosis" and "Transfiguration," present Mahler (5/iv) R Strauss (Metamorphosen) Schoenberg (Verklarete Nacht) in some sort of HIP style appropriate to pre-WWII works.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: M forever on January 16, 2008, 11:49:34 PM
Well it is only a matter of time before Norrington or Gardiner get to Mahler, maybe even Stravinsky. Norrington actually got as far as Tchaikovsky and Bruckner (I think there is a Bruckner 3rd out there somewhere).

As always, you are a little behind. There is already half a Mahler cycle with Norrington on disc with his Stuttgart orchestra. How "HIP" that actually is I don't know. But what I have heard so far is quite Sir Roger.

When it comes to later 19th century repertoire and later, it really doesn't make such a big difference anymore anyway. As we know from recordings made throughout the 20th century and even from the still existing (if today far less diverse) differences in sound and playing styles, these can still vary quite drastically between orchestral schools, depending on playing techniques and esthetics, and the exact types of instruments used.

I enjoyed listening to Sir Simon's "period instrument" version of Das Rheingold which he gave with the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment a few years ago at the Proms. The sonorities heard there are very interesting, but one can also hear that the modern orchestras which cultivate more "traditional" playing styles still sound rather close to that. Especially the WP, even though their playing style has also somewhat changed over the course of the 20th century. But the brass sound, for instance, comes very close. This is illustrated by this brief excerpt from that performance. The horn calls at 1'14 sound awesome, like real horns, much better than a lot of modern horns, but you can get that kind of sound with a Viennese F horn, too, or at least closely approximate it with a modern double horn:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/2t9wcv

The strings have a very articulated silvery quality, but that can also be achieved with modern instruments (meaning with steel strings) and the right playing culture.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on January 17, 2008, 08:24:02 AM
As always, you are a little behind. There is already half a Mahler cycle with Norrington on disc with his Stuttgart orchestra. How "HIP" that actually is I don't know. But what I have heard so far is quite Sir Roger.

When it comes to later 19th century repertoire and later, it really doesn't make such a big difference anymore anyway. As we know from recordings made throughout the 20th century and even from the still existing (if today far less diverse) differences in sound and playing styles, these can still vary quite drastically between orchestral schools, depending on playing techniques and esthetics, and the exact types of instruments used.

I enjoyed listening to Sir Simon's "period instrument" version of Das Rheingold which he gave with the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment a few years ago at the Proms. The sonorities heard there are very interesting, but one can also hear that the modern orchestras which cultivate more "traditional" playing styles still sound rather close to that. Especially the WP, even though their playing style has also somewhat changed over the course of the 20th century. But the brass sound, for instance, comes very close. This is illustrated by this brief excerpt from that performance. The horn calls at 1'14 sound awesome, like real horns, much better than a lot of modern horns, but you can get that kind of sound with a Viennese F horn, too, or at least closely approximate it with a modern double horn:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/2t9wcv

The strings have a very articulated silvery quality, but that can also be achieved with modern instruments (meaning with steel strings) and the right playing culture.
That was with gut strings ??? It sounds like modern instruments with some vibrato suppressed. If you don't tell me I would never know that it's the OAE, because I have some of their Haydn recordings and the sound is totally different. The horns sound almost identical to the Solti recording (I had to play that recording just to be sure) but definitely sounds more robust and penetrating than the sometimes wooly sound of the modern French horn. But maybe that is also due to the recording as they can probably put a couple of mikes where they want to highly certain sections of the orchestra. Although in this case the balance suggests this was likely not done. I like the sound of the Wagner tubas also. A true piano but still heard clearly.

Thanks for the clip.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: M forever on January 17, 2008, 01:18:44 PM
That was with gut strings ??? It sounds like modern instruments with some vibrato suppressed. If you don't tell me I would never know that it's the OAE, because I have some of their Haydn recordings and the sound is totally different. The horns sound almost identical to the Solti recording (I had to play that recording just to be sure) but definitely sounds more robust and penetrating than the sometimes wooly sound of the modern French horn. But maybe that is also due to the recording as they can probably put a couple of mikes where they want to highly certain sections of the orchestra.

No, the reason for that is that the horns in the Solti recording are Viennese F horns which basically are late 19th century types of horns. I wouldn't be surprised if the OAE actually used Viennese horns there. It would certainly be appropriate and "period" enough.
The string vibrato doesn't have to be "suppressed". It is not something that automatically happens on a string instrument, it is something which is usually *added*. Apart from that, the sound of the gut strings is a little different. But not *that* much. That kind of sound can also be achieved on modern instruments with steel strings.
All that should show you that a lot of preconceptions about what is "HIP" you and some others here entertain are simply wrong. That's not to put you or anyone down. But there is certainly room there for things that you have yet to explore about these things.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on January 17, 2008, 01:41:18 PM
All that should show you that a lot of preconceptions about what is "HIP" you and some others here entertain are simply wrong. That's not to put you or anyone down. But there is certainly room there for things that you have yet to explore about these things.
That's certainly true.

So the OAE uses different instruments based on which music they are performing? When they do Haydn they would have instruments made similar to Haydn's period and then when they do Wagner they have different instruments? Wouldn't it be pretty difficult to play the Viennese F-horn if you are not used to playing one? It's not something you can pick up on the fly (I wouldn't think).

By "vibrato suppressed" I meant suppressed by the conductor.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: M forever on January 17, 2008, 01:59:55 PM
So the OAE uses different instruments based on which music they are performing? When they do Haydn they would have instruments made similar to Haydn's period and then when they do Wagner they have different instruments? Wouldn't it be pretty difficult to play the Viennese F-horn if you are not used to playing one?

Sure it is. That's why most horn players make it easier for themselves, at the expense of sound quality (more or less, of course, since there are many horn players who have great sound on the double horn, too, and then there are of course different esthetics - not every horn has to sound like the Viennese one - although it is no doubt the most "authentic" sound for the late romantic "central European" repertoire).
I don't know too much of the OAE's other work, but from what i have heard so far, they do play different types of instruments depending on the actual period. That's th whole point. Otherwise, it can get rificulous and pointless pretty quickly. Which is unfortunately what was happening a lot in the "HIP" scene when period performance became really popular in the 80s or so. There were - and still are a lot of ensembles which play music on instruments and with playing techniques and esthetics which do not belong to the same period as the music performed. Or which simply just play on period instruments, somehow, without a clear concept of the performance practice, not much beyond "no vibrato" and "hard timpani sticks".
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on January 17, 2008, 02:05:54 PM
Or which simply just play on period instruments, somehow, without a clear concept of the performance practice, not much beyond "no vibrato" and "hard timpani sticks".

Are you referring to Savall and Goodman? I find Savall pretty extreme, almost like Beethoven on instruments from the late Renaissance or something like that. Funny you mentioned "no vibrato" and "hard timpani sticks" because Savall made a big point about that in his notes.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: M forever on January 17, 2008, 03:28:17 PM
Are you referring to Savall and Goodman? I find Savall pretty extreme, almost like Beethoven on instruments from the late Renaissance or something like that. Funny you mentioned "no vibrato" and "hard timpani sticks" because Savall made a big point about that in his notes.

A lot of the Goodman/Hanover Band stuff I have heard is definitely the bottom residue of the time when "HIP" really took off, especially in London, and "period performers" were very much in demand. There were a lot of gigs available for anyone who could somehow operate a somehow "period" instrument. I remember a friend of mine who studied the cello in London at that time told me that he got a number of gigs as a "period cellist" even though according to himself, he had really no solid clue about historical performance practices. He was told that all that he needed to do was put gut strings on his cello and play without vibrato. So they had all these people on the loose, and a lot of demand for HIP" recordings, and they just threw together lots of "HIP" ensembles. Part of the bad reputation that whole movement has in some circles is actually - infortunately - deserved. But all that doesn't have much to do with the validity and necessity of "HIP" studies in general.

Dunno about Savall's Eroica. I listened to it and found it very unconvincing. They just bang and blast through the piece at high speeds without much of the eloquent phrasing, rhythmical flexibility and dramatic coherence that the music demands and that it gets from a lot of good interpreters - "HIP" or not. I hear very little of that in any form in this performance. Sure, it is "exciting", but that's not enough and that alone is certainly not "HIP". Strange. Savall is such a great player of gamba repertoire, I don't really understand why he took that detour. Based on his very fine work in that area, I would really have expected much more from him here. I don't really know what, but certainly much more than the thin concept he offers here.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on February 03, 2008, 05:14:37 AM
Somebody already got this and wants to comment?  :)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0608917219425.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/9883441?rk=cpo&rsk=notepad)
                 (click picure)

First performance on period instruments I've encountered.
I sampled it the shop, and the "HIP effect" in terms of sound and balance was much bigger than I expected. The fortepiano used is a 1850 Streicher btw - which sounds very nice indeed. On first impression I was not entirely sure about the performance however - fine but on the slow and somewhat deliberate and unimaginative side.

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bunny on February 03, 2008, 08:25:31 AM
A lot of the Goodman/Hanover Band stuff I have heard is definitely the bottom residue of the time when "HIP" really took off, especially in London, and "period performers" were very much in demand. There were a lot of gigs available for anyone who could somehow operate a somehow "period" instrument. I remember a friend of mine who studied the cello in London at that time told me that he got a number of gigs as a "period cellist" even though according to himself, he had really no solid clue about historical performance practices. He was told that all that he needed to do was put gut strings on his cello and play without vibrato. So they had all these people on the loose, and a lot of demand for HIP" recordings, and they just threw together lots of "HIP" ensembles. Part of the bad reputation that whole movement has in some circles is actually - infortunately - deserved. But all that doesn't have much to do with the validity and necessity of "HIP" studies in general.

Dunno about Savall's Eroica. I listened to it and found it very unconvincing. They just bang and blast through the piece at high speeds without much of the eloquent phrasing, rhythmical flexibility and dramatic coherence that the music demands and that it gets from a lot of good interpreters - "HIP" or not. I hear very little of that in any form in this performance. Sure, it is "exciting", but that's not enough and that alone is certainly not "HIP". Strange. Savall is such a great player of gamba repertoire, I don't really understand why he took that detour. Based on his very fine work in that area, I would really have expected much more from him here. I don't really know what, but certainly much more than the thin concept he offers here.

I have the Savall Eroica and I really love it.  I didn't listen to it as a stand alone recording.  Before I listened to it, I had been listening to some Mozart and Haydn recordings (also hip).  I then put the Savall into the player and went into shock.  All at once I understood everything I had read of the contemporary accounts of the symphony. 

It's sometimes hard for us to understand just how revolutionary Beethoven was in his time.  We look at him through the prism of more than 100 years of romantic performance of his works.  We don't see the revolutionary aspects of the symphony as much as the "proto-romantic" aspects of his classicism.  It's old news to us, not the clarion call of a new style that it was in the salon of Prince Lobkowitz.  It may not be the greatest Eroica on disc, but it will always be one of my favorites because of the insight it gave me into the transforming nature of Beethoven's works.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: rubio on March 04, 2008, 09:48:33 AM
Any comments on this Festetics recording?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21MB7Y8VZBL._AA130_.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on March 04, 2008, 10:02:36 AM
Any comments on this Festetics recording?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21MB7Y8VZBL._AA130_.jpg)

Que will be able to talk about this particular one more, but I find their recording of the Quintet in C a truly moving experience.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on March 04, 2008, 10:25:49 AM
Any comments on this Festetics recording?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21MB7Y8VZBL._AA130_.jpg)

Full disclosure: I got this entirely by accident, thinking I was ordering vol. 4 of the Haydn cycle.
And I think it's terrific, never heard anything like it. It's the treatment of rhythms that is so special - it all makes so much more sense. Although the rest of their Schubert SQ's recordings has vanished - get this disc anyway! :)

Q

PS I would get the recording of the string quintet that FL recommended as well.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on May 30, 2008, 05:27:13 AM
OOOhhhh!  :) :)


The new MdG series of Brahms early piano works (performer Hardy Rittner) starts with a recording of sonata 2 and ballads and one set of variations played on a 1851 JB Streicher instrument.  Hopefully the series will involve other instruments as it progresses.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0760623149424.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on May 31, 2008, 07:49:27 AM
(http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia/images_produits/ZoomPE/3/5/4/8711801101453.jpg)

Sonata in C minor D958; Zwei Scherzi D593; Sonata in C major Reliquie D840;
Sonata in A major D959; Sonata in A minor D537
ET'CETERA KTC 1330


I guess in this case the choice of instrument will be a decisive factor for prospective buyers. Vermeulen uses a Viennese fortepiano from 1826 by Nannette Streicher, which seems to me the ultimate in bright, lean, and penetrating sound in fortepianos, with a bell-like upper register. You'll love it (maybe after getting used to it) or you'll hate it, in which case the sound is more likely to be described as tinny, "clanging" and brittle.... ::) This gives rather different results than the earlier recordings Vermeulen made for Vanguard, playing a Tröndlin with a generously warm and mellow sound.
To top off the sound of the instrument, the description of lean and penetrating also fits the performance. This is the perfect anti-thesis of meandering, "candlelight" Schubert: very straight forward and driven, yet unforced and natural. Clearly a case in which the angle of the performance is emphasized by the instrument. On first listening I was a bit taken aback by the sound, especially in the louder passages. But the second hearing already agreed with me much better. I think I will continue with this series. I guess the choice of instrument adds a unique flavour, which at the same time creates the need to complement it with other approaches, with other fortepianos. I gather that for me the book on "Schubert on fortepiano" will not be closed for a loooong time to come - endlessly fascinating... :)

Interesting REVIEW (http://www.allmusicguide.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=43:154707).

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Don on May 31, 2008, 08:25:17 AM
(http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia/images_produits/ZoomPE/3/5/4/8711801101453.jpg)

Sonata in C minor D958; Zwei Scherzi D593; Sonata in C major Reliquie D840;
Sonata in A major D959; Sonata in A minor D537
ET'CETERA KTC 1330


I guess in this case the choice of instrument will be a decisive factor for prospective buyers. Vermeulen uses a Viennese fortepiano from 1826 by Nannette Streicher, which seems to me the ultimate in bright, lean, and penetrating sound in fortepianos, with a bell-like upper register. You'll love it (maybe after getting used to it) or you'll hate it, in which case the sound is more likely to be described as tinny, "clanging" and brittle.... ::) This gives rather different results than the earlier recordings Vermeulen made for Vanguard, playing a Tröndlin with a generously warm and mellow sound.
To top off the sound of the instrument, the description of lean and penetrating also fits the performance. This is the perfect anti-thesis of meandering, "candlelight" Schubert: very straight forward and driven, yet unforced and natural. Clearly a case in which the angle of the performance is emphasized by the instrument. On first listening I was a bit taken aback by the sound, especially in the louder passages. But the second hearing already agreed with me much better. I think I will continue with this series. I guess the choice of instrument adds a unique flavour, which at the same time creates the need to complement it with other approaches, with other fortepianos. I gather that for me the book on "Schubert on fortepiano" will not be closed for a loooong time to come - endlessly fascinating... :)

I have this set and have enjoyed it greatly.  For me, the instrument used is not nearly as important as the artistry of the keyboardist.  Heartily recommended.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on May 31, 2008, 08:29:30 AM
I have this set and have enjoyed it greatly.  For me, the instrument used is not nearly as important as the artistry of the keyboardist.  Heartily recommended.

Just case this was not entirely clear from my post: in the end I liked both, and second your recommendation! :)

And for the other members: this wil be a complete cycle, parts II & III are also available:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/8711801101767.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/8711801101774.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 31, 2008, 08:38:38 AM
Thanks for posting, Q. I am much in agreement with Don in that the pianism of the performer is the main thing, but I will go a step further and say that I have always found the sound of the Viennese fortepiano to be greatly to my taste, and in this recording it seems to enhance the artistry and in no way detract. This is by all appearances the set that will finally have me chasing down a fortepiano version of Schubert!   :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Ronald Brautigam - Op 002 #2 Sonata #02 in A 1st mvmt - Allegro vivace
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on June 02, 2008, 06:00:45 PM
OOOhhhh!  :) :)

Q

The use of JB Streicher instrument is significant here -- it was Brahms's own favourite (in chamber music anyway) and will both enhance and guide the performer's artistry in performance and recording.  There is something of older Streichers that we hear on Vermeulen's Schubert that is also obvious in the Brahms -- the Viennese action.  One is reminded of the later composer's anachronistic love of natural horns here.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bunny on June 03, 2008, 06:41:04 AM
Traverso, How does Vermeulen's interpretation of the late sonatas differ from Andreas Staier's?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on June 03, 2008, 07:06:06 AM
Traverso, How does Vermeulen's interpretation of the late sonatas differ from Andreas Staier's?

Sorry I don't know -- I don't have any of the Vermeulen recordings mentioned by Q yet, so he is clearly more qualified to describe them than I am now.  :P  The only Schubert recording on a Streicher that I have is by
this German pianist called Thomas Gunther, on a German label called Cybele.  Outstanding sound (and on
SACD) good performance (not in the same league, imo, as the Staier though) but the instrument is from 1844
and therefore not one of Nannette's creations.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on June 07, 2008, 01:38:08 PM
(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/25/920125.jpg)

The Thomas Gunther disc mentioned above.   I listened to it again today and found myself
favouring it a lot more than before.  The recorded sound is terrific: a mid-19th century pianoforte
never sounded this attractive on disc.  The playing itself is extremely efficacious -- plenty of clarity in
phrasing and articulation.   Not as strongly characterised as the Staier, yet it is very convincing
in a persuasive rather than demonstrative way.  If the MdG Brahms series will be this well
recorded on what essentially is the same instrument, I will leap on their purchase without a
second thought.  :D
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on June 11, 2008, 09:45:09 AM
That Schubert looks nice, traverso! :)

Spotted this Bruckner on period instruments under organist & conductor Martin Haselböck.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4006408710639.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/7101645?rk=classic&rsk=hitlist)
             click pic for link

Has anyone given this a go yet?

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on June 11, 2008, 11:15:55 AM

Spotted this Bruckner on period instruments under organist & conductor Martin Haselböck.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4006408710639.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/7101645?rk=classic&rsk=hitlist)
             click pic for link

Has anyone given this a go yet?

Q

There is a SA-CD net review of this disc, which I was tempted to buy but have yet taken the action  :-[
http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/3419 (http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/3419)  The reviewer seems to have done his share of Bruckner
listening, and his review therefore has some credibility to me.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: M forever on June 11, 2008, 01:18:02 PM
From that review:

This, as far as I am aware, is only the third recording of the ‘un-revised’ 1866 Linz version of Bruckner’s Symphony No 1, following those made by Stanislaw Skrowaczewski and Georg Tintner a few years ago.


Berky's discography actually lists this recording as the Linz version with revisions (1877, ed.Nowak), Skrowacewski as 1877, ed. Haas, and only Tintner as the apparently "unrevised" 1866 version. I don't have any of the discs, so I can't check who is right here.

I can't really read any very specific information about the musical qualities of this performance and the playing style from the review, except that Haselböck drives the music forward impressively without losing the sense of line and that Timpani, as you would expect, are played with hard sticks, but seem rather backward in the overall mix. Why would I expect that? because it is probably the most die hard cliché of period performance that timpani aways have to be played with hard sticks? Even when it comes to music from the second half of the 19th century?

BTW, there is also a recording of the 3rd with Norrington and the London Classical Players. These two are the only recordings I am aware of of Bruckner on more or less "original" instruments. No, wait, there are also the 4th and 7th symphonies with Herreweghe which I both have but I don't remember much about what they are like. I vaguely remember the 7th was pretty uninteresting though.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bunny on June 11, 2008, 01:31:41 PM
From that review:

This, as far as I am aware, is only the third recording of the ‘un-revised’ 1866 Linz version of Bruckner’s Symphony No 1, following those made by Stanislaw Skrowaczewski and Georg Tintner a few years ago.


Berky's discography actually lists this recording as the Linz version with revisions (1877, ed.Nowak), Skrowacewski as 1877, ed. Haas, and only Tintner as the apparently "unrevised" 1866 version. I don't have any of the discs, so I can't check who is right here.

I can't really read any very specific information about the musical qualities of this performance and the playing style from the review, except that Haselböck drives the music forward impressively without losing the sense of line and that Timpani, as you would expect, are played with hard sticks, but seem rather backward in the overall mix. Why would I expect that? because it is probably the most die hard cliché of period performance that timpani aways have to be played with hard sticks? Even when it comes to music from the second half of the 19th century?

BTW, there is also a recording of the 3rd with Norrington and the London Classical Players. These two are the only recordings I am aware of of Bruckner on more or less "original" instruments. No, wait, there are also the 4th and 7th symphonies with Herreweghe which I both have but I don't remember much about what they are like. I vaguely remember the 7th was pretty uninteresting though.



In re period instrument Bruckner: there is also Anner Bijlsma's recording of Bruckner's string quintet and other chamber music which is on period instruments.  I do understand that this is not symphonic music (duh!), but it is another period instrument recording of Bruckner that I bring up for the sake of completeness. 

M, you wont have to worry about that cliché about hard sticks if you read a review of it. ;)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YVPF2D0RL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: M forever on June 11, 2008, 01:36:09 PM
I think there is also some sacred music accompanied by "period instruments", but I don't recall right now what that was (and I am too lazy to google or check amazon or discographies for that).
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on June 14, 2008, 07:18:17 AM
Herreweghe Bruckner Mass in e minor, motets
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on July 23, 2008, 05:59:54 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51uZ5Dybj0L._SS400_.jpg)

Bizet: L'arlésienne (Suites 1 & 2 etc.); Carmen (Prélude & Entractes I, II, III)

Les Musiciens du Louvre, Grenoble/Marc Minkowski (Naïve V5130)

rave review at MusicalCriticism.com (http://www.musicalcriticism.com/recordings/cd-minkowski-bizet-0708.shtml)

promotional video as seen on youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uBhhpfgwsM)

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: mn dave on July 23, 2008, 06:01:47 AM
full-marks review at MusicalCriticism.com (http://www.musicalcriticism.com/recordings/cd-minkowski-bizet-0708.shtml)

Same at Gramophone FWIW.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on July 23, 2008, 06:06:48 AM
Same at Gramophone FWIW.

I just listened to the disc and agree that it is an excellent performance.  Sound quality is really fine as well.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: mn dave on July 23, 2008, 06:09:21 AM
I just listened to the disc and agree that it is a fascinating performance/recording.

I have it too and can agree with you.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on July 23, 2008, 06:15:19 AM
I have it too and can agree with you.

Yup this one is quite uncontroversial.  Even the classicstoday crank Hurwitz gave it a 10/10. 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bunny on July 23, 2008, 07:58:39 AM
Yup this one is quite uncontroversial.  Even the classicstoday crank Hurwitz gave it a 10/10. 

I picked it up a few weeks ago and was delighted with the music.  It may not be Wagner or Debussy, but it's fun; and even better than Hewitt's Chabrier.  ;)

Thank goodness, something we don't have to fight about! 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: karlhenning on July 23, 2008, 08:02:46 AM
Yup this one is quite uncontroversial.  Even the classicstoday crank Hurwitz gave it a 10/10. 

(* chortle *)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on July 23, 2008, 02:21:31 PM
(* chortle *)

Not that Hurwitz's opinion matters much at all around here...  :D
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on November 17, 2008, 01:01:35 AM
Just picked up on this new release at the Purchases thread - my thanks to hautbois! :)

Schumann by Staier, whom I consider to be one of the best pianists around seems a major event.
Would welcome comments by those who've already heard it!
Staier plays an Érard from 1837. Clara Schumann reportedly used such an instrument for her concerts.

(https://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0794881891429.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/lang/en/currency/EUR/hnum/6724796/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist)

                click picture

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bunny on November 17, 2008, 07:58:37 AM
I see that the release date was Nov. 12, 2008 so this won't be available in the US yet, so I will have to wait. :(

But only until Dec. 19.  :D
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bulldog on November 17, 2008, 08:10:43 AM
I see that the release date was Nov. 12, 2008 so this won't be available in the US yet, so I will have to wait. :(

But only until Dec. 19.  :D

Based on the samples, Dec. 19 can't come soon enough.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Superhorn on November 17, 2008, 10:59:13 AM
   Norrington's ongoing Mahler cycle with the Stuttgart radio orchestra suppresses vibrato; so far, I have only heard a radio broadcst of the fourth, and the lack of vibrato sounded rather disconcerting to me, but then I grew up accustomed to string vibrato.
  But the ironic thing is that David Hurwitz pointed out in one of his scathing reviews of Norrington's Mahler, is that there are stories of Mahler himself rehearsing the New York Philharmonic circs 1909 or so, and asking the strings for a great deal of vibrato ! So much for Norrington's "authenticity"!
  Another example of HIP gone to absurd lengths was the review in the New York Times of a concert in Carnegie hall back in the 90s by the Bonn Beethovenhalle orchestra under its then music director Dennis Russell Davies.
  The horn section played Schumann's hellishly difficult Konzertstuck for four horns and orchestra. But the reviewer, whose name I don't remember, stated that it would have been preferable to have heard an "authentic" performance on natural horns.
  He was trying to show his pious support of HIP. But this work was written in 1849 as a showpiece for valved horns, and is unplayable on natural horns !
 Silly critic.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on November 17, 2008, 11:03:56 AM
But this work was written in 1849 as a showpiece for valved horns, and is unplayable on natural horns !

Really? Has anyone tried to play it on natural horns? What about the Gardiner recording? Is that on valved horns? With crooks?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on November 17, 2008, 02:35:04 PM
The horn section played Schumann's hellishly difficult Konzertstuck for four horns and orchestra. But the reviewer, whose name I don't remember, stated that it would have been preferable to have heard an "authentic" performance on natural horns.
  He was trying to show his pious support of HIP. But this work was written in 1849 as a showpiece for valved horns, and is unplayable on natural horns !

Really? Has anyone tried to play it on natural horns? What about the Gardiner recording? Is that on valved horns? With crooks?

The four solo parts are for the modern chromatic valve-horn (relatively new at the time), while the two horns in the orchestra are natural horns. Schumann calls for a large orchestra, including piccolo, two trumpets, three trombones, and two tympani. Generally, when the solo horns are playing, the orchestra horns rest.

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Superhorn on November 17, 2008, 02:45:30 PM
  Yes, the Gardiner recording on Archiv WAS played with valved horns.
Schumann wrote the work to show what valved horns can do.
Natural horns are limited to the notes of the harmonic series, but the player can produce other pitches by hand stopping, which changes the sound of the horn. But Schumann specifically wrote parts that are simply not playable on the natural instrument.
   There is also a brand new period performance conducted by Emmanuel Krivine with  a group whose name I don't recall, coupled with an HIP  Dvorak New World Symphony !   David Hurwitz was not impressed by either performance.
  It takes guts to stand up to HIP political correctness!
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on November 17, 2008, 02:57:18 PM
It takes guts to stand up to HIP political correctness!

I doubt it, since Hurwitz trashes practically every HIP recording he can lay his hands on.

It seems he thinks that orchestras with period instruments are as a rule inferior to other orchestras. Quote from his review of the LvB 1th & 6th by Vänskä and the Minnesota Orchestra (sic!). Hilarious, if ask me...

"So let's be clear. No period instrument group in existence can play this music as well as a superbly trained, regularly constituted major symphony orchestra such as we find here".

Sure looks like another kind of "political correctness". ::)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bulldog on November 17, 2008, 03:15:29 PM
  Yes, the Gardiner recording on Archiv WAS played with valved horns.
Schumann wrote the work to show what valved horns can do.
Natural horns are limited to the notes of the harmonic series, but the player can produce other pitches by hand stopping, which changes the sound of the horn. But Schumann specifically wrote parts that are simply not playable on the natural instrument.
   There is also a brand new period performance conducted by Emmanuel Krivine with  a group whose name I don't recall, coupled with an HIP  Dvorak New World Symphony !   David Hurwitz was not impressed by either performance.
  It takes guts to stand up to HIP political correctness!

Tell me - what risks does Hurwitz take by talking negatively about HIP recordings?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on November 18, 2008, 12:22:36 AM
He was trying to show his pious support of HIP. But this work was written in 1849 as a showpiece for valved horns, and is unplayable on natural horns !
 Silly critic.

Absolutely. But look it at this way: playing music written for valved horns on natural horns is just as silly as the other way around... ;D  As is for instance the case with Brahms' horn trio. Brahms specifically wrote this for natural horn - while the valved horn was already around. Still, on the vast majority recordings of this music it is played on the "wrong" instrument.

Fortunately some get it right:

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/89/1046489.jpg) (http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/84/431584.jpg)

The 2nd picture is a bit blurry: Lowell Greer (natural horn), Steven Lubin (piano) and Stephanie Chase (violin)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Superhorn on November 18, 2008, 08:44:11 AM
   That  still  does  not  necessarily  mean  that   Brahms  would  have  disliked  performances  on  a  valved  horn  or  with  a  violin  with  steel  strings,  or  a  modern piano  if  he  could come  back  and  hear  them  today.
  And  even  a  performance  today  with  a  natural  horn,  gut  strings  and  period  piano  does  not  guarante  that  the  INTERPRETATION  would  be   to  Brahms  liking.  just using  period  instruments  is  no  guarantee  of  anything.
  Just  going  through  the  motions  of  what  is  currently  believed  to  be   correct performance  practice  and using  period  instruments  is  not  enough.
   Hurwitz  does  not  dislike  all  HIP  recordings  by  any  means;  he  just  has  the  sense  not  to  praise them  merely for  using  them.

    ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on November 18, 2008, 09:12:00 AM
  Yes, the Gardiner recording on Archiv WAS played with valved horns.
Schumann wrote the work to show what valved horns can do.
Would that be valved horns in F or double horns ?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: The new erato on November 18, 2008, 01:29:45 PM
Lowell Greer (natural horn), Steven Lubin (piano) and Stephanie Chase (violin)

Q
Is that a good recording/performance? I need a disc of th Beethoven work, and wouldn't mind a Brahms version on an natural horn either.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bulldog on November 18, 2008, 01:57:32 PM
Hurwitz  does  not  dislike  all  HIP  recordings  by  any  means;  he  just  has  the  sense  not  to  praise them  merely for  using  them.


I don't know of any reviewer who praises all HIP recordings.  Do you?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on November 18, 2008, 02:34:47 PM
Is that a good recording/performance? I need a disc of th Beethoven work, and wouldn't mind a Brahms version on an natural horn either.

Absolutely, a marvelous performance. Warmly recommended. :)

The Beethoven is with a French "Cor basse" with F-crook from ca. 1795 and a fortepiano copied after a Conrad Graf from ca. 1824. The Brahms with a French horn from 1855 with E-flat crook and a Bösendorfer piano from ca. 1854. The recording is from 1991.

PS The first CD pictured with Faust and Van der Zwart is rather new and I haven't heard it.

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Superhorn on November 18, 2008, 03:06:05 PM
   The double horn did not come out until 1898. Therefore, if one really wants to be 100% Kosher, you would not use the double horn in any music written before this date.
  Richard Strauss, son of the great horn player Franz Strauss (1822 - 1905), was delighted by the invention of the new-fangled double horn. The double horn has two layers of tubing, a shorter B flat horn beneath the F tubing, which enables the player to combine the greater accuracy of the B flat horn in the high register with the superior tone of the F horn in the middle to lower range.
  The tone of the B flat horn is not as good in the middle register.
   Recently, some horn players have started to use a TRIPLE horn, which also has tubing in high F for the very difficult parts with a great deal of high notes.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on November 20, 2008, 05:39:57 AM
Anyone heard Gardiner's Brahms yet?  :)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0843183070220.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/5704224?rk=classic&rsk=hitlist) 
                     click picture

REVIEW (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2008/Sept08/Brahms1_Gardiner_sdg702.htm) at Musicweb International.

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on December 01, 2008, 12:20:44 PM
Aye, I did!  I thought Mendelssohn and Brahms deserved their own threads, though!  I also didn't see much on either Mendelssohn or Brahms there...  Alas, Que has spoken - so be it.  0:)  Thanks for the link.

Well Sorin, unfortunately there isn't that much HIP Brahms around - here's a list! :)
(period instruments only, and no claim for completeness...)

German Requiem: Gardiner (Philips)
Symphonies: Norrington/London Classical Players (Virgin/EMI), symphony no.1 - Gardiner (Soli Deo Gloria - see last post)
Serenades: Spering/Capella Augustina (CPO)
String sextets: L'Archibudelli (Sony Vivarte); Hausmusik (Signum)
Clarinet quintet: Hoeprich/London Haydn Quartet (Glossa); Veilhan/Quator Stadler (K617)
Piano quintet & piano quartet op. 60: La Gaia Scienza (Winter & Winter)
Horn trio: Greer/Chase/Lubin (HM); Van der Zwart/ Faust/ Melnikov (HM); Clark/Govier/Martin (EMI)
Clarinet trio & clarinet sonatas: Boeykens/ Dieltiens/ Vanden Eynden (Ricercar - early HIP with no information on the used instruments, sounds absolutely wonderful though.); Hacker/Clarke/Burnett (Amon Ra)
Cello sonatas: Bylsma/Orkis (Sony Vivarte); Wispelwey/Komen (Channel Classics); Pulford/McDonald (Doremi)
Violin sonatas: Korol/Grigorieva (Challenge); op. 78 Faust/Melnikov (coupled with the horn trio - HM)

Piano sonata op. 2, Variations op. 9, Ballades op. 10: Hardy Rittner (MDG)
Klavierstücke, Op. 118, Klavierstücke, Op. 119, Intermezzi, Op. 117, Fantasien, Op. 116: Boyd McDonald (AIG Recordings)
Die Schöne Magelone: Prégardien/Staier

Q 8)


Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on December 01, 2008, 03:10:07 PM
Well Sorin, unfortunately there isn't that much HIP Brahms around - here's a list! :)
(period instruments only, and no claim for completeness...)

German Requiem: Gardiner (Philips)
Symphonies: Norrington/London Classical Players (Virgin/EMI), symphony no.1 - Gardiner (Soli Deo Gloria - see last post)
Serenades: Spering/Capella Augustina (CPO)
String sextets: L'Archibudelli (Sony Vivarte); Hausmusik (Signum)
Clarinet quintet: Hoeprich/London Haydn Quartet (Glossa); Veilhan/Quator Stadler (K617)
Piano quintet & piano quartet op. 60: La Gaia Scienza (Winter & Winter)
Horn trio: Greer/Chase/Lubin (HM); Van der Zwart/ Faust/ Melnikov (HM); Clark/Govier/Martin (EMI)
Clarinet trio & clarinet sonatas: Boeykens/ Dieltiens/ Vanden Eynden (Ricercar - early HIP with no information on the used instruments, sounds absolutely wonderful though.); Hacker/Clarke/Burnett (Amon Ra)
Cello sonatas: Bylsma/Orkis (Sony Vivarte); Wispelwey/Komen (Channel Classics); Pulford/McDonald (Doremi)
Violin sonatas: Korol/Grigorieva (Challenge); op. 78 Faust/Melnikov (coupled with the horn trio - HM)

Piano sonata op. 2, Variations op. 9, Ballades op. 10: Hardy Rittner (MDG)
Klavierstücke, Op. 118, Klavierstücke, Op. 119, Intermezzi, Op. 117, Fantasien, Op. 116: Boyd McDonald (AIG Recordings)
Die Schöne Magelone: Prégardien/Staier
Thanks, Que.  There certainly isn't much, is there?  A shame.  I was hoping for some good HIP recordings of his concerti.  Ah, well; das ist leben. ;)  Thanks for the list.

For symphony 1: Norrington or Gardiner?  From what I hear, Norrington has the upper-hand.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Opus106 on January 26, 2009, 02:37:18 AM
To be released shortly...

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/SDG703.jpg)

I'm afraid not much was spoken about the recording of the first symphony in this part of the intertoobs.

The new disc also contains the Alto Rhapsody, Op.53 and Schubert's Gesang der Geister über den Wassern, D714 (1821), Gruppe aus dem Tartarus, D583 (1817, arr. Brahms 1871), and An Schwager Kronos D369 (1816, arr. Brahms 1871).

Soli Deo Golria (http://www.solideogloria.co.uk/recordings/brahms.cfm#sdg703)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on March 01, 2009, 08:31:27 AM
Figured I'd try here too...

Anyone heard this recording or know where on Earth I can find it?  I've looked all over!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NFC13ZN9L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Mendelssohn's Second Symphony (Lobgesang) on period instruments, the only one of it's kind from what I can tell.  Looks like another one of those albums that went down with the Opus111 ship...  :'(
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: rubio on March 01, 2009, 08:58:37 AM
Figured I'd try here too...

Anyone heard this recording or know where on Earth I can find it?  I've looked all over!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NFC13ZN9L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Mendelssohn's Second Symphony (Lobgesang) on period instruments, the only one of it's kind from what I can tell.  Looks like another one of those albums that went down with the Opus111 ship...  :'(

Well, there is a copy for 22 Euro here. Maybe the seller will agree to ship outside of Germany?

http://www.amazon.de/Symphonie-Nr-2-Logbesang/dp/B0000260TE/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1235926519&sr=1-5
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bunny on March 01, 2009, 10:12:04 AM
Sorry to derail the Brahms discussion, but has anyone heard or heard about Andreas Staier's new recording of Schumann entitled "Homage à Bach"?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ira2k12hL._SS400_.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 01, 2009, 02:39:16 PM
Another addition to the thread:

The 27 Chopin’s Etudes performed by the American fortepianist John Khouri on his own 1832 Broadwood Grand Piano (Music & Programs Arts of America, 1999).

The playing and sound are both very good.

It is intended to respect very closely the metronome marks of the Chopin’s manuscripts.

John Khouri himself has written the documented liner notes, explaining some reasons to choose the instrument that was used and some insights about the relationship between Chopin and the previous generation of pianists (Fields, Cramer, Clementi et. al). Finally, Khouri gives brief but interesting guides to each individual piece played.

Here an example:

http://www.goear.com/files/external.swf?file=0a589a1

http://www.amazon.com/Chopin-The-27-Etudes/dp/B000777IQA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1235941722&sr=1-1
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: hautbois on March 04, 2009, 12:23:15 PM
Sorry to derail the Brahms discussion, but has anyone heard or heard about Andreas Staier's new recording of Schumann entitled "Homage à Bach"?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ira2k12hL._SS400_.jpg)

I have......and no......i am not going to bash it, but i don't recommend it highly either. Beautiful programme notes though.  :P

Staier is a fantastic pianist, produced some of the most beautiful things ever to have existed in recorded music. Not this one.

Howard
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bunny on March 05, 2009, 08:16:24 AM
I have......and no......i am not going to bash it, but i don't recommend it highly either. Beautiful programme notes though.  :P

Staier is a fantastic pianist, produced some of the most beautiful things ever to have existed in recorded music. Not this one.

Howard

Ouch!  That certainly qualifies as damnation with faint praise, if not quite a bashing. :o
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Brian on March 05, 2009, 08:54:06 AM
Anyone heard Gardiner's Brahms yet?  :)
I was running short on time one day, so I listened to the third movements of each of Gardiner's two Brahms symphonies. Haven't heard the rest of them yet.  ;D

For what it's worth, the third movements were fabulously lively and quite colorful.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on March 05, 2009, 02:45:52 PM
Well, there is a copy for 22 Euro here. Maybe the seller will agree to ship outside of Germany?
It's always worth a try, though it might be tricky since I don't speak German...  :-\

Thanks for the heads-up, Rubio.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: rubio on March 05, 2009, 10:23:38 PM
It's always worth a try, though it might be tricky since I don't speak German...  :-\

Thanks for the heads-up, Rubio.

Several times I've requested the seller to ship an item to Norway through Amazon.de and it usually works out fine. I've always written my messages to the seller in English as well. It can be worse dealing with some sellers in France... 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 07, 2009, 10:02:55 AM
Sorry to derail the Brahms discussion, but has anyone heard or heard about Andreas Staier's new recording of Schumann entitled "Homage à Bach"?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ira2k12hL._SS400_.jpg)


Hi, Bunny. I did read your question some days ago, but I had not heard the Staier’s recording yet.

Today, I was listening to the disc all the morning and can say that, IMO, it’s a great disc, beautifully performed and recorded.

But I must do some warnings: It’s a very intimate and SOBER recording, especially because of the pianoforte chosen by Staier (with a very beautiful tone, but not too much color) and because it’s devoted to research the nature of the relations of these pieces with Bach. Therefore, the plenty enjoyment of this recording supposes not only a Schumann fan, but a Bach fan too.

On the other hand, all the works included are short pieces. But all of them are great art in the smaller forms, which is, as you know, preferable to inferior art in the larger forms (Horowitz dixit)  ;D.

All in all, a must-have for those few moments of total calmness.

Here a fair review about the disc (I just disagree about one point: the Erard pianoforte has not a “clunky” sound at all):

http://www.answers.com/topic/robert-schumann-a-tribute-to-bach
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bunny on March 07, 2009, 03:38:50 PM
Thank you, Antoine, for your well expressed opinion and the link to the description of the cd. :) 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on March 08, 2009, 07:20:21 AM
Several times I've requested the seller to ship an item to Norway through Amazon.de and it usually works out fine. I've always written my messages to the seller in English as well. It can be worse dealing with some sellers in France... 
Addendum: it can be worse dealing with the French!  ;D

I went ahead and sent a letter to the seller.  I printed it in English then again in German using Google translator, which, in retrospect, I'm sure will give the seller a giggle or two!  ::)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 08, 2009, 12:03:15 PM
Thank you, Antoine, for your well expressed opinion and the link to the description of the cd. :) 

You're welcome, Bunny  :D.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 08, 2009, 12:16:18 PM
Some CDs recently purchased:

Schubert: Drei Klavierstücke – Moments Musicaux – Valses Nobles
Played on a Clementi fortepiano of 1832.
DDD, Athene.

http://www.divine-art.com/CD/athcd7info.htm


Chopin: First and Last
Early and late works played on a Collard & Collard square piano of c. 1836
DDD, Divine Art Limited

http://www.divine-art.com/CD/24116info.htm


Schubert: Der Tod und das Mädchen - Rosamunde
Quatuor Tersycordes
Ricercar, 2008

From the booklet:

"Why, indeed, record yet another version of these works? Rosamunde and Der Tod und das Mädchen have figured in our repertoire for as long as we have been playing together, first as works we dreamt about, then as pieces that we discovered and then experienced. Over all these years of work and concert-giving, our performance of these works has gradually been influenced by the research that we have carried out as a quartet into historical instruments and performance practice. The grain of the sound of gut strings, like that of a black-and-white photo, gives an inimitable timbre to the quartet's sound, one that is ideal for displaying the colours of Schubert's music. The curve and weight of historical bows when used on these strings creates a palette of articulations that links the notes with a play of consonants that is related to vocal production and that is therefore also related to the Lied that was so dear to Schubert's heart. And to abandon the modern technique of a continuous vibrato is a great aid to both the transparency of the music and to how its dissonances are perceived. Our interpretations often take the instruments themselves as their base; our wish as a quartet is to reveal the infinite beauty and complexity of these compositions to the best of our knowledge and ability.

"For this recording, the Quatuor Terpsycordes performs on four instruments made by the Vuillaume studio of luthiers that have kindly been made available for the quartet's use by the Musée d'Art et d'Histoire in Geneva. They use two violins by Jean-Baptiste Vuillaume, the first being a mid-19th century copy of a Guarnerius del Gesù and the second being a copy of the Stradivarius Messiah made in Paris in 1864. The viola is also attributed to Jean-Baptiste Vuillaume and is a copy of a del Gesù. The cello, an exact copy of the Servais Stradivarius, is the work of Nicolas- François Vuillaume, the brother of Jean-Baptiste and was made in Brussels in 1861. The instruments have been prepared for historical performance with gut strings and have been tuned for this recording to A=430 Hz. Bow maker Bruno Sporcq has constructed four 'classical' bows for the quartet, taking his inspiration from bows made in England by Dodd at the end of the 18th century".

The Quatuor Terpsycordes
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 01, 2009, 02:53:31 PM
The discs below seem to be a major find  :o. I have ordered all of them, although I only have heard a few examples on internet. Just ordered, I am sharing this find  ;).

Anyone knows these recordings?

The only strange thing is the recording devoted to the Beethoven's string trios because Beethoven is not frequently considered a Romantic composer, the volume indicates the number 4 on the cover (but apparently is the 6th) and, also apparently, the Adaskin String Trio doesn't play on period instruments.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 01, 2009, 02:56:05 PM
 :D
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 01, 2009, 02:57:21 PM
 8)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bunny on April 01, 2009, 09:05:23 PM
8)

(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159.0;attach=16893;image)
I don't know the record, but the painting is "On the Sailing Boat" by Caspar David Friedrich.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 02, 2009, 02:36:04 AM
I don't know the record, but the painting is "On the Sailing Boat" by Caspar David Friedrich.

Nice... "Clara and Robert on the Sailing Boat". Very poetic.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 02, 2009, 02:39:35 AM
Links to several reviews and audio examples on the "Musica Omnia" site:

http://www.musicaomnia.org/reviews.htm
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on April 05, 2009, 02:10:33 AM
I see some Mendelssohn in the above-noted discs...  Anyone have any recommendations for his solo piano works?  :)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 05, 2009, 05:39:53 PM
Hi, Sorin.

Unfortunately, I don’t know records devoted to his solo piano works, but you will find some Mendelssohn's HIP in the next list:

Cpte. Org. Works [1820-1845] / J.-B. Robin / Triton 331130 (3CD)
Cpte. Vn.&Fpn. Sons. [1825-1839] / T. Kiriyama & K. Ogura / ALM Records ALCD-1056
Cpte. Vc.&Fpn. Sons. & Var. [1829-1843] / C. Coin & P. Cohen / Decca 430245
Cpte. Fpn. Trios [1839-1845] / Voces Intimae / Symphonia SY02199
Cpte. Str. Qts. [Op.12,13,posth., 1823-1827; Op.44-1,2, 1838; Op.44-3,80, 1847] /
      Eroica Quartet / Harmonia Mundi HMU907245; HMU907287; HMU907288
Cpte. Str. Qnts. [#1, 1826; #2, 1845] / L'Archibudelli / Sony SK60766
Cpte. Wind & Fpn. Qts. [Konzertstücke 1 & 2, 1832/3], 1 Cl. Son. [1824], &
      8 Div. Fpn. Works / R. Burnett et al. / Amon Ra 38
Cpte. Str. Symph. [1821-1823] & Conc. / Concerto Köln / Warner Classics 25646-92709 (4CD) § ‡
Cpte. Secular Part-Songs for A Capella Choir [Op.41,48,49,88,100; Festlied zu Zelters
      70th Geburtstag; Die Frauen and die Sanger] / Saxon Vocal Ens. / Tacet 142
2     Orch. Stes. [A Midsummer Night's Dream, 1826 & 1842 (Op.21 & Op.61)] /
      Orch. of the 18th Century / Glossa GCD921101
Opera [Die Hochzeit des Camacho, 1825] / Orch. Anima Eterna / Channel
      Classics Ccs5593 (2CD)
Oratorio [Paulus, 1834-1836] / Das Neue Orch. Köln / Opus111 OPS30-135/6 (2CD)
Incidental Music [Athalie, 1845] / Das Neue Orch. Köln / Capriccio 67068
Oratorio [Elijah, 1846] / Orch. of the Age of Enlightenment / Decca 455688 (2CD)

Compiled by Dr. Roger Peters; last update 1st April 2009.

BTW, this list doesn’t include the previous Musica Omnia discs posted by me; therefore, we have now the most complete Mendelssohn’s HIP list on the web  8).
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on April 05, 2009, 06:44:33 PM
...this list doesn’t include the previous Musica Omnia discs posted by me; therefore, we have now the most complete Mendelssohn’s HIP list on the web  8).

Well done!!!  I see a number of omissions, however... Let me add a few...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51qNPhWXD7L._SL500_AA280_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Mendelssohn-Paulus/dp/B0011CVAT6/ref=dm_cd_album_lnk?ie=UTF8&qid=1238988747&sr=1-5) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517RIPSH4sL._SL500_AA280_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Mendelssohn-Elias/dp/B0011BF4YE/ref=dm_cd_album_lnk?ie=UTF8&qid=1238988848&sr=1-4)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31I%2B-Z3PqeL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Mendelssohn-Symphony-Midsummer-Nights-Dream/dp/B000THCE1M/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&s=dmusic&qid=1238988952&sr=1-14) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41dwp6AHYIL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Mendelssohn-Concertos-Piano-Strings-Violin/dp/B00000JHI7/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1238989409&sr=1-8)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PS9CS7WDL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Mendelssohn-Symhonies-3-4-Felix/dp/B00004RITT/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1238989096&sr=1-2) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51W55VBH93L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Hanover-Band-Plays-Mendelssohn/dp/B0007PL8EK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1238989153&sr=1-1)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41JZJKEKCSL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Symphonies-Mendelssohn/dp/B00009963C/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1238989153&sr=1-2) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51KlUhL-EHL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Schneider-Symphony-Mendelssohn-Concerto-Coloniensis/dp/B0001M64X4/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1238989228&sr=1-3)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41GF0ZBJN8L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Mendelssohn-Octet-Quintets-Nos-Quartet/dp/B00004TQQU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1238989214&sr=1-1) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-z0WqOSeL._SL500_AA280_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Mendelssohn-Symphonies-No-Italian-Reformation/dp/B000VRRHXK/ref=dm_cd_album_lnk?ie=UTF8&qid=1238989302&sr=1-5)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NFC13ZN9L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Mendelssohn-Lobgesang-Symphony-Cantata-No/dp/B00004ZBKG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1238989571&sr=1-1)

There does seem to be a relatively large amount of period Mendelssohn out there; for that I am very thankful!  ;D


 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on April 05, 2009, 09:14:18 PM
And...

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/8881331.jpg) (http://www.globerecords.nl/catalogue/images/thumb_osutuyxwsm_300.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 06, 2009, 12:46:00 AM
Well done!!!  I see a number of omissions, however... Let me add a few...

D


 

I know, Sorin. I was just kidding about this list (an overview): http://www.wissensdrang.com/picds1.htm

In any case, it is rather evident the lack of recordings of the solo piano works.

A point to discuss would be the inclusion of his arrangement of the Bach's St. Matthew Passion.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on April 07, 2009, 03:03:29 AM
In any case, it is rather evident the lack of recordings of the solo piano works.

That's very disappointing.  His piano concerto sounds great on fortepiano!

Which reminds me, if you haven't got that Nimbus Hanover Band disc yet I highly recommend every and all HIP Mendelssohn lover do so!  ;D
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 12, 2009, 09:11:44 AM
The Green cover Schubert is complemented by the orange covered Schubert.  Both cds are also available in the set with the blue cover.  This can make for very confused buying! 

(http://www.winterandwinter.com/typo3temp/pics/6ab82e2510.jpg)+ (http://www.winterandwinter.com/typo3temp/pics/6b1bc31c89.jpg) = (http://www.winterandwinter.com/typo3temp/pics/abb63d4a7b.jpg)

I have found that I really like all of the cds I have bought by La Gaia Scienza, including the Schumann and Brahms recordings pictured below.  They are both excellent, and easy to recommend. :D

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/43/788543.jpg)  (http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/22/429322.jpg)



Great suggestion, Bunny.

These are some of the most attractive discs that I have heard in the last time.

Especially that Brahms: it's really a bullet on the head! And Federica Valli, what an appealing fortepianist!

All of them are almost perfect, only excepting the weird digipacks and some lacking of information in the "booklets", when they are included.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on April 13, 2009, 08:51:04 AM
(http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/414U8UD7J6L._SS500_.jpg)(http://pds.exblog.jp/pds/1/200710/13/13/d0070113_5365198.jpg)

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 13, 2009, 07:30:50 PM
Hidemi Suzuki looks rather self-confident in those pictures  :). Is that justified, traverso?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on April 13, 2009, 07:37:00 PM
Hidemi Suzuki looks rather self-confident in those pictures  :). Is that justified, traverso?

I only have the Mendelssohn and there he sounds very fine (can't say more for lack of comparison. :-[)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on April 19, 2009, 07:57:17 AM
Anyone tried this yet?  :)
Should be swell - Andreas Staier is one of the best Schubertians I've heard.

BTW "Op. 78" = D894.

(http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia/images_produits/ZoomPE/6/2/2/0794881911226.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Lethevich on April 19, 2009, 08:25:43 PM
Lilas, great review, thanks! I am not a great connoisseur of historic performances, but Schuricht is one of my favourites, initially thanks to his Bruckner.

Earlier I played these two:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/d4/59/d193c0a398a09e1d5b60d110.L._AA240_.png) (http://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Symphony-Bergrabnisgesang-Schicksalslied-Mendelssohn/dp/B001DCQJ4A) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515KpQCKueL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Symphony-Rhapsody-Schubert-Tartarus/dp/B001O8C5FU)

And they immediately went onto my purchase list. The inspired programming decisions (choral music alongside a symphony) I initially felt might deprive me of half a disc of what I wanted to listen to - which was Brahms' fine orchestral music - but they compliment each other very successfully. The coupling makes sense given the forces Gardiner has at his disposal (both choir and orchestra are his "home" ensembles), but the decision to actually carry it out makes for some very distinctive releases. Not just the diversity of texture, but they allow each symphony to be the focus of the respective disc, rather than jostling each other for attention as sometimes might seem the case with couplings. It could've been too easy to throw in a perfunctory Tragic Overture or Haydn Variations to fill each disc out. And of course, the choral contribution from the Monteverdi Choir is exceptional, as always.

The symphony performances are exactly what one might expect from Gardiner - his fans will enjoy, those less convinced could find it a bit passionless or brash. I do feel that there is a lyrical side, as well as a little flexibility, although these qualities are of course incomparable to performances which have come before throughout the previous century. I do find these performances to be interesting not only for the HIP-centric, but simply for those interested in objective and clear performances. The massive arc of the first movement of the second symphony I find gripping in this performance and due to Gardiner's focus on playing up the dramatic side of the work as well as its lyrical one. Overall it sounds a fine equal to the first symphony rather than the usual view of it as almost a light interlude. It's not as heroic, but nor is it as one-dimensional, as these performances find a fine ambiguity in mood which I had not experienced before from previous performances in major cycles.

Overall, I hope that these discs are successful for SDG, as HIP Brahms symphonies aren't exactly a dime a dozen and the interesting couplings work brilliantly in context.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on April 22, 2009, 06:04:47 AM
Anyone tried this yet?  :)
Should be swell - Andreas Staier is one of the best Schubertians I've heard.

BTW "Op. 78" = D894.

(http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia/images_produits/ZoomPE/6/2/2/0794881911226.jpg)

Q

The album is not released in uk until next week....so report from me will have to come later.  :-[
How do you like the still ongoing series by Jan Vermeulen?  I listened to his D894 and Impromptus and have had some ambivalent feelings.  The instrument sounds good (not stupendously beautiful), but I find him to be a bit
stiff expressively from time to time.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: DavidRoss on April 22, 2009, 07:13:41 AM
I've moved Lethe's interesting review to here from the Listening thread, for safe keeping and perhaps further discussion. :)
Her review prompted me to search Rhapsody for them.  I listened to the first movement of the second and was surprised by Gardiner's measured pace, having expected something more brisk, but he held it together well and any Brahms orchestral performance that doesn't bury the sound in a thick mush of strings has merit in my estimation.  Because I've no interest in the couplings I will wait to see if the symphonies are offered as a set when the cycle's complete.

Somewhere I stumbled upon Gardiner's notes on his Brahms project.  He justifies using a comparatively large complement of strings based on his interpretation of Brahms's preferences, claiming that the composer would have liked more if he could have gotten them.  I'm more persuaded by Robert Pascal's notes to Mackerras's edition that support Brahms's preference for a smaller string section.  Given Brahms's mastery of chamber music, I doubt he would really care just how many strings are in the band as long as they don't drown out the winds and the balance permits all voices to be heard clearly.  This is one of the strengths of Mackerras's set and, based on the little I've heard, of Gardiner's as well.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: karlhenning on April 22, 2009, 07:19:54 AM
I haven't heard Gardiner's Brahms symphonies, Dave, but I've always really, really liked his Deutsches Requiem.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on April 22, 2009, 08:23:04 AM
The album is not released in uk until next week....so report from me will have to come later.  :-[
How do you like the still ongoing series by Jan Vermeulen? I listened to his D894 and Impromptus and have had some ambivalent feelings.  The instrument sounds good (not stupendously beautiful), but I find him to be a bit
stiff expressively from time to time.

Re: Schubert piano works

I have two 2-CD volumes now (EtCetera). I have three of the five volumes Vermeulen did earlier on Vanguard, played on a Tröndlin fortepiano, just like the Immerseel recording on NorthWest. Based on that, I think the "stifffness" you sense is primarily caused by the instrument, which to my ears is uncompromising: brash and penetrating, with in-your-face dynamics. There are didvidends as well, like the bell like upper register and the immediacy.
But here you go, it takes getting used but it grows on me. To have next to other recordings - on other instruments, I would say.

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on April 30, 2009, 01:05:40 PM
Anyone tried this yet?  :)
Should be swell - Andreas Staier is one of the best Schubertians I've heard.

BTW "Op. 78" = D894.

(http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia/images_produits/ZoomPE/6/2/2/0794881911226.jpg)

Q

I have just given this disc another listen, on my Stax phones and the Graf copy he used doesn't sound boomy any more.  Just plainly beautiful and colourful.  Staier made some pretty spectacular use of the pedals to enhance his (frequent) dynamic shadings and I think he's made the best case for this sonata (my partner's favourite to play) yet on the fortepiano.  I also have Vermeulen's recording on an original Streicher but don't like his rendition as much.

It is probably reasonable to suggest that HM sound engineers have mastered this recording on phones more like my Stax, which have extraordinary highs and lean, tight lows...

ps. Marvellous cover design for the digipack in and out.  A keeper for me.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on May 01, 2009, 11:11:05 PM
Anyone heard this (and the composer?)

(http://images.emusic.com/music/images/album/279/114/119/11411904/600x600.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on May 01, 2009, 11:19:30 PM
Anyone heard this (and the composer?)

I'm afraid not. But as a minor side track: have these Schumann discs on Genuin (http://www.genuin.de/en/01.php) on the shopping list, since Tobias Koch sounded very much OK to me on sampling.

(http://www.genuin.de/img/cds/uid46304ab7cf50a.jpg) (http://www.genuin.de/img/cds/uid448ae52245a4a.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on May 01, 2009, 11:34:09 PM
I'm afraid not. But as a minor side track: have these Schumann discs on Genuin (http://www.genuin.de/en/01.php) on the shopping list, since Tobias Koch sounded very much OK to me on sampling.

I have a Mozart (violin sonata) recording of his on order - but clearly he's into reviving overlooked repertoires.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on June 12, 2009, 12:55:00 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51tW%2Bo01OQL._SS500_.jpg)

Grimwood plays an 1851 Erard.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Opus106 on July 20, 2009, 06:57:20 AM
Quote
Frederick Chopin Institute
First 10 releases in a new series of Chopin's works played on historical instruments

This project is realised on historical instruments from Chopin's times: pianos by Erard (Paris, 1849) and Pleyel (Paris, 1848). Both instruments are excellently preserved, meeting every requirement for concert performance, and allow Chopin's music to be heard just as it was written. Key features of the instruments' construction and mechanism, allied to their characteristic tonal qualities, create a different set of possibilities for interpretation from those of modern-day pianos. These new recordings of the complete works of Chopin allow contemporary listeners to discover the historical models, bringing us closer to Romantic times and revealing the long forgotten soundworld of that era.


http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/llf/Frederick%2BChopin%2BInstitute/1
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on July 29, 2009, 03:15:50 AM
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/llf/Frederick%2BChopin%2BInstitute/1

Great to know that the series is now available at the usual outlets -- check amazon, hmv
etc. for even better pricings.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on September 14, 2009, 07:51:30 AM
Quoted here for safe keeping - many thanks to Antoine Marchand for posting this info. :)

(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9.0;attach=20639;image)

The tiny English record label Amon Ra specializes in recording historical instruments, very often from the collection at the museum in Finchcocks in Kent, where pianist Richard Burnett has built up a considerable collection of fully-playable keyboard instruments. On the current Mendelssohn CD, Burnett himself plays six of Mendelssohn's Songs Without Words, his Rondo Capriccioso Opus 14 and his 17 Variations Sérieuses Opus 54 on a Graf Fortepiano built in 1826 in Vienna and a British Broadwood Pianoforte built in 1823. The sound is amazing, the instruments sounding a lot more modern than I had anticipated from some other fortepiano recitals that I have heard, although of course there are all the usual thumping noises etc that one associates with historical instruments of this category. Burnett explains his choices of instrument in the short but informative notes provided.

Mendelssohn's youthful E flat Sonata for Clarinet and Fortepiano is performed beautifully by Alan Hacker using a Bilton boxwood clarinet from the first part of the 19th century and Burnett on the Graf fortepiano. The two relatively short Konzertstücke for clarinet, basset horn and fortepiano are performed on different instruments: On the first, Alan Hacker plays a late 19th century Albert cocus wood instrument, Lesley Schatzberger a small-bore basset horn by Selmer and Richard Burnett an Erard Pianoforte made in London in 1866. The second Konzertstück is played on slightly earlier instruments.

A wonderful "museum" recording with some lovely harmonies, some delightful piano playing and some living music outside the general run-of-the-mill pattern. New aspects of Mendelssohn, new insights into the history of instrument-making.
 

Leslie Richford, Amazon.com review on the recording.

I strongly object to the peculiar term "museum recording" BTW...

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bulldog on September 14, 2009, 08:19:46 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51tW%2Bo01OQL._SS500_.jpg)

Grimwood plays an 1851 Erard.

Have you heard this set?  I've read a few reviews full of praise for the interpretations.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bunny on February 06, 2010, 03:22:05 PM
(http://en.chopin.nifc.pl/web/gfx/nifc/logo_en.gif)

The whole series now at reduced price of €10 each at jpc HERE (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/home/search/-/label/NIFC).  0:)

Q

For those in the USA who are interested, they are also available at Amazon -- and delivery charges are not €13.00 (more than the cd!) for the first cd. 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 06, 2010, 09:48:46 AM
Anyone heard this (and the composer?)

(http://images.emusic.com/music/images/album/279/114/119/11411904/600x600.jpg)

I'm afraid not. But as a minor side track: have these Schumann discs on Genuin (http://www.genuin.de/en/01.php) on the shopping list, since Tobias Koch sounded very much OK to me on sampling.

(http://www.genuin.de/img/cds/uid46304ab7cf50a.jpg) (http://www.genuin.de/img/cds/uid448ae52245a4a.jpg)

Q

For awhile I have had and enjoyed three discs by Tobias Koch (two Schumanns with -principally- solo piano music and one Mendelssohn), all of them fully recommendable, excellently played on lovely period instruments.

(http://www.genuin.de/img/cds/uid448ae52245a4a.jpg)

But now I also own his recording -along with Lisa Marie Landgraf- dedicated to the complete works for violin and pianoforte and, I think, it is simply mandatory, by far the most beautiful, erudite and exhaustive version of these pieces currently available in the market.

I have another three fine versions: Kremer/Argerich (DG), Nikolitch/Le Sage (Alpha) and Malikian/Kradjian (Brilliant Classics, licensed from Hänssler), but you usually you only get the three sonatas for violin and piano and sometimes, as in the case of Argerich/kremer, just two of them. On the other hand, Landgraf/Koch's project is absolutely exhaustive including all the sonatas for violin & piano, but also those pieces that Schumann wrote for the use ad libitum of that duo of instruments, transcriptions, collaborations, etc.

That 3-CD set also includes extense liner notes, a lot of information and insightful points of view.

The balance between the instruments is ideal, as effective as beautiful and expressive are the instruments used:

- Violin: Francesco Pressenda, Turin, 1847

- Piano:

CD1: Conrad Graf, Vienna 1821-22

CD2: Erard, Paris 1839

CD3: Johann Bernhard Klems, Düsseldorf 1850

Did I mention I loved this recording and I recommend it without reservations?

genuin.de (http://www.genuin.de/en/04_d.php?k=21): info & excerpts.

 :)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Mandryka on November 06, 2010, 11:10:40 AM
I just want to share this Chopin Berceuse from Alexei Lubimov which I really enjoy.

Chopin called it just Air Varie – it was a marketing idea to brand it as a berceuse .

Lubimov brings out the ground bass very effectively.  This seems to me a case where the fortepiano is really revelatory in Chopin’s music. I'm not sure you could balance the music in such an interesting way with a modern piano.




http://www.goear.com/files/external.swf?file=8afd576


Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on November 07, 2010, 01:16:16 AM
(http://www.genuin.de/img/cds/uid448ae52245a4a.jpg)

But now I also own his recording -along with Lisa Marie Landgraf- dedicated to the complete works for violin and pianoforte and, I think, it is simply mandatory, by far the most beautiful, erudite and exhaustive version of these pieces currently available in the market.
(....)

Did I mention I loved this recording and I recommend it without reservations?


Nice! :) And so good to see this thread back again.  :) I just browsed though it with much pleasure - a wealth of information and all kinds of leads I haven't explored yet. :o

I am aware of this Schumann issue and it is still on the list. The reason it didn't get priority is, besides being a more costly 3-CD issue, that I have another recording on period instruments that is so satisfying that it didn't leave me particularly wanting for another:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51BSu9W19-L._SS500_.jpg)

Samples (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001GXX12E/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_2?pf_rd_p=103612307&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B0000044P6&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_r=09APQ512BJRRHZ3SZG7A)

Violin by Willibrord Crijnen, Amsterdam 1992, after Tomaso Ballestrieri, Mantua c. 1760.
Fortepiano by Josef Riedl, Vienna 1870.

Pretty awesome, it topped Faust/Avenhaus (CPO) easily for me.  :o :) Judging from the on line samples, Leertouwer and Reynolds' take is a bit more fierce, with the heart on the sleeve, a bit more Florestan if you will, then the Landgraf/Koch on Genuin, which sounds very beautiful BTW. And I would welcome all the extras. :)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on November 20, 2010, 01:47:08 AM
New issue on Avie:

(http://www.abeillemusique.com/images/references/avie2210.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Superhorn on November 22, 2010, 09:02:55 AM
   What will be next? "Authentic" performances of the Richard Strauss tone poems ?  Wouldn't that be taking things a little too far?  And would they even be authentic at all? 
  Conducted by Thielemann?  Luisi? Nezet-Seguin?
   Some people have even called for "authentic " performances of the Schumann Konzertstuck for 4 horns on natural horns,not realizing that it was written in 1849 as a showpiece for VALVED horns and is unplayable on the natural instrument !
   Silly HIPers ! 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Opus106 on November 22, 2010, 09:10:12 AM
   What will be next? "Authentic" performances of the Richard Strauss tone poems ?  Wouldn't that be taking things a little too far?  And would they even be authentic at all? 
  Conducted by Thielemann?  Luisi? Nezet-Seguin?

So you obviously haven't heard this Ravel (http://www.zigzag-territoires.com/article.php3?id_article=761&lang=en). Nor have you heard Herreweghe and his band perform Bruckner. ;D
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 22, 2010, 09:15:51 AM
So you obviously haven't heard this Ravel (http://www.zigzag-territoires.com/article.php3?id_article=761&lang=en). Nor have you heard Herreweghe and his band perform Bruckner. ;D

Or the Brahms Horn Trio, written for Natural Horn, since Brahms had a realistic view of the sound of the valve horn...

SH's assumption that the orchestra hasn't changed since Schumann's time is amusing at best, tragically sad when taken as given. ::)

8)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: karlhenning on November 22, 2010, 09:43:43 AM
   What will be next? "Authentic" performances of the Richard Strauss tone poems ?  Wouldn't that be taking things a little too far?  And would they even be authentic at all?

Can't answer for the Strauss . . . one of my favorite Liszt recordings, though, features an Érard piano such as Liszt was known to enjoy playing.  The instrument has a noticeably lighter touch, and the sound of the music is enchanting.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Scarpia on November 22, 2010, 09:48:46 AM
   What will be next? "Authentic" performances of the Richard Strauss tone poems ?  Wouldn't that be taking things a little too far?  And would they even be authentic at all? 
  Conducted by Thielemann?  Luisi? Nezet-Seguin?

Orchestras still played on gut strings in the late 19th century, so authentic performance of those works would be interesting.  I don't know if it would be essential.  I have a wonderful recording of the Brahms Sextet played using gut strings, and the sound is noticeably different and creates a different impression entirely.  To claim that it is "taking things too far" is silly.  Performers should take things as far as they like.

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: DavidW on November 22, 2010, 09:51:43 AM
    Some people have even called for "authentic " performances of the Schumann Konzertstuck for 4 horns on natural horns,not realizing that it was written in 1849 as a showpiece for VALVED horns and is unplayable on the natural instrument !

So it's okay for people to play baroque and classical era music on modern instruments since many enjoy the sound of those instruments... but it's not okay to play romantic era music on older instruments since many enjoy their sound?  Are you a hypocrite or just logically challenged?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on November 22, 2010, 07:09:39 PM
So you obviously haven't heard this Ravel (http://www.zigzag-territoires.com/article.php3?id_article=761&lang=en).

Very nice. But to be perfectly honest what strikes me right off with these samples is how similar the orchestra sounds to early-to-mid-twentieth century French orchestras already represented on disc!!

The legacy of "authentic" Ravel is already well established on recordings (even stereo recordings) from conductors who knew Ravel, worked with him, and were compatriots. And that goes for orchestras, too.

Oh, well, I guess HIP French reborn can't be all bad! ;D

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Superhorn on November 23, 2010, 07:19:26 AM
  David W,I did not say that"it's not okay to play 19th century music on period instruments." I don't object tot he performances per se.
  What annoys me are those people who say that this is the only way and assume that they are "finally giving us performances of the music as it should actually sound".
  In fact, I HAVE enjoyed some of these performanes. But when people dismiss performances of anything on modern instruments snootily, as some critics and HIP performers do,that really gets my goat. How do they know that Schubert,Schumann,Mendelssohn,Brahms etc would not have loved the way musicians playing modern instruments if they could come back and hear them?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2010, 07:29:18 AM
  David W,I did not say that"it's not okay to play 19th century music on period instruments." I don't object tot he performances per se.
  What annoys me are those people who say that this is the only way and assume that they are "finally giving us performances of the music as it should actually sound".
  In fact, I HAVE enjoyed some of these performanes. But when people dismiss performances of anything on modern instruments snootily, as some critics and HIP performers do,that really gets my goat. How do they know that Schubert,Schumann,Mendelssohn,Brahms etc would not have loved the way musicians playing modern instruments if they could come back and hear them?

Who the hell ever says that? I've been a PIon for 10 years and know dozens of others and have never said nor heard one say that. Maybe you are reading something into their posts that is not there. I can say "that's the only way for me" and you can read "that's the only way". To give you the benefit of the doubt, I will assume that's what happens. Otherwise, I can only assume you have deep psychological scarring resulting from being whacked too often with a valve horn... :)

8)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Scarpia on November 23, 2010, 07:35:08 AM
  David W,I did not say that"it's not okay to play 19th century music on period instruments." I don't object tot he performances per se.
  What annoys me are those people who say that this is the only way and assume that they are "finally giving us performances of the music as it should actually sound".
  In fact, I HAVE enjoyed some of these performanes. But when people dismiss performances of anything on modern instruments snootily, as some critics and HIP performers do,that really gets my goat. How do they know that Schubert,Schumann,Mendelssohn,Brahms etc would not have loved the way musicians playing modern instruments if they could come back and hear them?

As Gurn said, I can't recall anyone saying anything remotely like that.   As as avid admirer of HIP I would say that it is important that period instrument performances are undertaken so we can know what the composer expected his or her work to sound like.   That said, I mainly listen to HIP because I like the way they sound.  That does not imply that interpretations that depart from period practices aren't equally valuable.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on December 18, 2010, 01:39:23 PM
Spotted Saint-Saëns on period instruments! :o :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51P3yVlYRML.jpg)

Les Siècles conducted by François Xavier Roth

Daniel Roth, Grand orgue Cavaille-Coll 1862
Jean-Francois Heisser, piano Erard 1874


Samples at Amazon (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Saint-Sa%C3%ABns-Symphonie-avec-orgue/dp/B0043Y8VDW/ref=dm_cd_album_bb)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 18, 2010, 02:13:09 PM
Can't ever remember seeing this posted here, although it certainly belongs:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/DvorakPianocover.jpg)

As it happens, I finally got to spend some time with it this morning. Dvorak's own piano was a wonderful sounding instrument. It has a very rich and full sound. Much like a modern Imperial in fact.

A nicely satisfactory disk. :)

8)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 18, 2010, 03:19:53 PM
Can't ever remember seeing this posted here, although it certainly belongs:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/DvorakPianocover.jpg)

As it happens, I finally got to spend some time with it this morning. Dvorak's own piano was a wonderful sounding instrument. It has a very rich and full sound. Much like a modern Imperial in fact.

A nicely satisfactory disk. :)

8)

It's a beautiful disc, well played and recorded. Kvapil has recorded several discs of Dvorak piano music, but -IIRC from past researches-, this was the only played on a period instrument.  :'(
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on December 19, 2010, 01:38:08 AM
That Dvorak looks nice, Gurn! :)

This issue caught my eye - with Bart van Oort, Constantino Mastroprimiano, Stanley Hoogland and Jan Vermeulen! :o

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/610KLXa963L._SS500_.jpg)

Review at MusicWeb (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/DEC10/Chopin_contemporaries_94048.htm)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Opus106 on December 19, 2010, 01:50:23 AM
This issue caught my eye - with Bart van Oort, Constantino Mastroprimiano, Stanley Hoogland and Jan Vermeulen! :o

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/610KLXa963L._SS500_.jpg)

Review at MusicWeb (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/DEC10/Chopin_contemporaries_94048.htm)

Q

Four of those discs are already contained in this earlier  release (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,159.msg31054.html#msg31054). :)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 23, 2010, 07:13:24 AM
(http://www.abeillemusique.com/images/references/blp4.jpg)

After some time, it's available again:

abeille musique (http://www.abeillemusique.com/CD/Classique/BLP4/3760201860069/Barcarolle/Frederic-Chopin/Nocturnes-Integrale/cleart-36679.html?utm_source=nl_abm_Cl_460&utm_medium=email)

 :)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Brian on December 23, 2010, 07:20:02 AM
After some time, it's available again:

abeille musique (http://www.abeillemusique.com/CD/Classique/BLP4/3760201860069/Barcarolle/Frederic-Chopin/Nocturnes-Integrale/cleart-36679.html?utm_source=nl_abm_Cl_460&utm_medium=email)

 :)

Cheaply, too! As the person who bought the last new copy of the original release in North America (I think), I urge anyone who hasn't heard this to act fast!
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on January 01, 2011, 07:27:22 AM
I briefly hesitated between Gurn's Classical Corner and this thread to post this, but both Spohr and Onslow are listed as Early Romantics.

I searched in vain for a period instruments performance of Spohr's wind octet, a piece recommended by Gurn and he already indicated there wasn't any... :-\

What I did come across was this brand new issue on period instruments of Spohr's and Onslow's wind nonets :)! Sounds very nice upon sampling - I hope this beholds a promise of a PI recording of that octet!

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4250128510073.jpg)

Information & samples at Ramée (http://www.ramee.org/1007gb.html)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 01, 2011, 07:56:01 AM
I briefly hesitated between Gurn's Classical Corner and this thread to post this, but both Spohr and Onslow are listed as Early Romantics.

I searched in vain for a period instruments performance of Spohr's wind octet, a piece recommended by Gurn and he already indicated there wasn't any... :-\

What I did come across was this brand new issue on period instruments of Spohr's and Onslow's wind nonets :)! Sounds very nice upon sampling - I hope this beholds a promise of a PI recording of that octet!

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4250128510073.jpg)

Information & samples at Ramée (http://www.ramee.org/1007gb.html)

Q

Ah, Q, I knew you would find something if turned loose on the project. :D  The Nonet may not be as cool to me as the Octet, but that doesn't mean I don't like it! And Onslow too. An abundance of riches there.  That one will be heading for Texas posthaste. :)

PS - Due to popular demand, the Corner has found room for both of these composers under a small wing-roof that sticks out the front (the Schubert Wing, if you must know).... :D

8)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 01, 2011, 08:03:03 AM
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4250128510073.jpg)

Information & samples at Ramée (http://www.ramee.org/1007gb.html)


Off-topic: I think it would be a great idea to waste some time clicking those samples of the Bach motetes on Ramée... just in case.  :)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Brian on January 01, 2011, 04:04:45 PM
Are there any good available HIP recordings of the Schumann Fantasie in C, Op 17?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 01, 2011, 05:21:17 PM
Very nice. But to be perfectly honest what strikes me right off with these samples is how similar the orchestra sounds to early-to-mid-twentieth century French orchestras already represented on disc!!

The legacy of "authentic" Ravel is already well established on recordings (even stereo recordings) from conductors who knew Ravel, worked with him, and were compatriots. And that goes for orchestras, too.

Oh, well, I guess HIP French reborn can't be all bad! ;D

I have not heard that recording either. But I have heard Ravel's own recording of the Bolero, and it exhibits a degree of freedom in phrasing that I miss in the standard 20th-century performances.

Personally, I don't object to the idea of HIP so much as to the fact that I've rarely heard HIP performances that exhibit the kind of musicianship I've found in the best mainstream recordings. (For example, there was that Schoondervoert LvB 4-5 that I saw people raving about here, and I bought it and found it seriously deficient in all kinds of ways. I've gone into this previously here, but for one thing he hasn't the vaguest idea how to create a Beethoven cadenza.) I've become gun-shy about acquiring HIP recordings, and you'll never convince me that Bach really wanted OVPP, as if there should be no distinction between solos and choruses.

What happens too over time is that the mainstream absorbs HIP influence. You won't hear mainstream Bach played in the ponderous way Otto Klemperer led the Brandenburgs or the SMP. Mainstream performers know how to double-dot their French overture rhythms and to reduce orchestra size for Haydn and Mozart.

But what bothers me too is my sense that HIPs want to wipe the slate clean and remove "encrustations" that may also represent a tradition of performance that dates back to the original creation of a work. Obviously when a tradition is passed down it can become distorted, but it can also be transmitted meaningfully. Beethoven taught Czerny, Czerny taught Liszt, Liszt had numerous pupils whose teaching led to the classic pianists of the mainstream of the 20th century. With many of these artists there is a "rightness" in phrasing that I miss in a lot of HIP performance. Just this morning I turned to Harnoncourt's LvB 1 with the COE, and with all his finicky treatment of detail I felt that the symphony just didn't flow, that it felt abnormally and ponderously long as it never does with Szell or Toscanini. And yet for all the detail, Harnoncourt's opening two measures flatten out the forte-subito piano dynamics written in the score in favor of a uniform and barely differentiated mezzo forte. If this is HIP, I want no part of it.

I would say also that the history of a work is not only a matter of recapturing its early performances - even if such were possible - as the traditions that grow over time as the work is performed and recorded over and over. Thus whether Beethoven or Brahms or Chopin would have "approved" of such or such a performance is unknowable and irrelevant. And sometimes how the work is performed over time becomes part of its history. Even Puccini is relevant here. The high B at the end of Nessun Dorma, which is written as a short, 16-note upbeat in the score and was sung by the tenor that way on the first recording, is now invariably heard as (at least) a full whole note on the downbeat and it would be inconceivable to hear it otherwise today. No doubt some HIP tenor could sing it as a short 16th and say that he is clearing the aria of the "encrustations" of tradition, but he would be booed out of the opera house, and rightly so.

Anyway, that's what I think about it all. Throw whatever brickbats you like; I don't really care.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 01, 2011, 05:30:39 PM
Are there any good available HIP recordings of the Schumann Fantasie in C, Op 17?

But shouldn't the question be really, "Of the available good recordings of Op. 17, are any on period instruments?"

I will tell you the one way I would want to hear an HIP performance of the Fantasy, and I don't care what kind of piano it's played on. That would be to restore the original ending to the final slow movement, which Schumann suppressed in his later years in favor of the duller ending we hear almost always today. In the original version, the arpeggios suddenly break off and Schumann reprises the ending of the first movement, binding the entire work together far more meaningfully than the perfunctory close he settled on later. I once heard Charles Rosen do it that way in recital (he also publishes the original in The Romantic Revolution), and it is now the only way I play the movement for myself at home. I don't know if he recorded it that way, but to my mind that would be an essential criterion for a truly HIP performance.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Brian on January 02, 2011, 01:40:52 AM
But shouldn't the question be really, "Of the available good recordings of Op. 17, are any on period instruments?"

I will tell you the one way I would want to hear an HIP performance of the Fantasy, and I don't care what kind of piano it's played on. That would be to restore the original ending to the final slow movement, which Schumann suppressed in his later years in favor of the duller ending we hear almost always today. In the original version, the arpeggios suddenly break off and Schumann reprises the ending of the first movement, binding the entire work together far more meaningfully than the perfunctory close he settled on later. I once heard Charles Rosen do it that way in recital (he also publishes the original in The Romantic Revolution), and it is now the only way I play the movement for myself at home. I don't know if he recorded it that way, but to my mind that would be an essential criterion for a truly HIP performance.

As it happens, the recording I did select to satisfy my craving last night does indeed restore that 'original ending' - Arnaldo Cohen's performance on Vox, which is very good all around. I had never heard that ending before, except in the orchestrated version of the Fantasie (on Hanssler), and frantic googling did not reveal the information you've just posted. At any rate, there we go: now I know what Cohen was playing, and now you know a recording exists.  :D

In reply to your earlier post, the HIP movement and, as you point out, the broader music scene watching it have matured considerably. I would be disappointed by Harnoncourt too based on your reports - in fact have heard a live Harnoncourt Mozart symphony (one of M forever's favorite performances) that was similarly finicky in that way. More recent recordings like the period-instrument Anima Eterna/Immerseel and the modern Saarbrucken Radio SO/Skrowaczewski and Scottish CO/Mackerras do an eye-popping job bringing out the dynamic shifts in the opening bars of Beethoven's First (esp. Skrowaczewski).
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on January 12, 2011, 10:59:05 PM
I have not heard that recording either. But I have heard Ravel's own recording of the Bolero, and it exhibits a degree of freedom in phrasing that I miss in the standard 20th-century performances.

Personally, I don't object to the idea of HIP so much as to the fact that I've rarely heard HIP performances that exhibit the kind of musicianship I've found in the best mainstream recordings. (For example, there was that Schoondervoert LvB 4-5 that I saw people raving about here, and I bought it and found it seriously deficient in all kinds of ways. I've gone into this previously here, but for one thing he hasn't the vaguest idea how to create a Beethoven cadenza.) I've become gun-shy about acquiring HIP recordings, and you'll never convince me that Bach really wanted OVPP, as if there should be no distinction between solos and choruses.

What happens too over time is that the mainstream absorbs HIP influence. You won't hear mainstream Bach played in the ponderous way Otto Klemperer led the Brandenburgs or the SMP. Mainstream performers know how to double-dot their French overture rhythms and to reduce orchestra size for Haydn and Mozart.

But what bothers me too is my sense that HIPs want to wipe the slate clean and remove "encrustations" that may also represent a tradition of performance that dates back to the original creation of a work. Obviously when a tradition is passed down it can become distorted, but it can also be transmitted meaningfully. Beethoven taught Czerny, Czerny taught Liszt, Liszt had numerous pupils whose teaching led to the classic pianists of the mainstream of the 20th century. With many of these artists there is a "rightness" in phrasing that I miss in a lot of HIP performance. Just this morning I turned to Harnoncourt's LvB 1 with the COE, and with all his finicky treatment of detail I felt that the symphony just didn't flow, that it felt abnormally and ponderously long as it never does with Szell or Toscanini. And yet for all the detail, Harnoncourt's opening two measures flatten out the forte-subito piano dynamics written in the score in favor of a uniform and barely differentiated mezzo forte. If this is HIP, I want no part of it.

I would say also that the history of a work is not only a matter of recapturing its early performances - even if such were possible - as the traditions that grow over time as the work is performed and recorded over and over. Thus whether Beethoven or Brahms or Chopin would have "approved" of such or such a performance is unknowable and irrelevant. And sometimes how the work is performed over time becomes part of its history. Even Puccini is relevant here. The high B at the end of Nessun Dorma, which is written as a short, 16-note upbeat in the score and was sung by the tenor that way on the first recording, is now invariably heard as (at least) a full whole note on the downbeat and it would be inconceivable to hear it otherwise today. No doubt some HIP tenor could sing it as a short 16th and say that he is clearing the aria of the "encrustations" of tradition, but he would be booed out of the opera house, and rightly so.

Anyway, that's what I think about it all. Throw whatever brickbats you like; I don't really care.

Overall I think there's much food for thought in what you say. After all, it's not called "interpretation" for nothing!

But I do think "encrustations" can be a double-edged sword. Obviously it's a genuine treat to hear tradition handed down via recordings, and certainly not just for "archival" reasons. Music lives and breathes no matter what the era, which I agree can get somewhat lost amid HIP dogma.

But it IS true that certain music can get lost in the haze of history only to be resurrected decades or even centuries later. Depending on one's point of view, I suppose, what either hurts or helps this revival is the CURRENT musical tradition entrenched at the time of revival.

Bach's revival will always be a cause for great celebration but had Bach not fallen completely off the radar for so long couldn't there have been something of a "Bach tradition" already in place by the time the romantics got to him? As it was the romantics basically got to him completely "cold" and had to go off what their instincts and scholarship at the time told them. No bad thing obviously but suppose something of a "Bach tradition" had already existed? IOW, Bach had never died! In that case there's the possibility Bach would've gotten to the romantics in something of a "pre-packaged" form and what "revival" there was merely amplified Bach's already known qualities. Subsequently Bach then might have passed through the hands of the romantics more or less "intact" and might have even reached those of us who came after in something of the "HIPish" form we're now growing accustomed to (but I agree, OVPP as a mandate is going tooooooo far).

This all assumes that what Bach tradition there might have been would've resembled what the HIPsters of today give us in performance. Not to mention there's always the possibility the romantics would've taken one look at that so-called "Bach tradition" and spat on it and morphed him into their own vision anyway. In which case all my conjecturing is moot! ;D

But still, it seems to me no matter how you slice it it all falls under the umbrella of "interpretation". So seen in that light I tend to refrain from dismissing musical scholarship - HIP, romantic, or whatever - outright.


Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on January 17, 2011, 12:41:46 AM
The Belgian pianist Jan Michiels has been recording various programmes by late romantics on period instruments, mainly for local labels like Eufoda and Etcetera.  I have his Liszt, Busoni and also this.  I do like his approach to the music.

http://www.youtube.com/v/HzlgAsq_6T8
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on January 19, 2011, 02:32:15 AM
From Dang Thai-Son's recent nocturne album in the Real Chopin series:


http://www.youtube.com/v/4YkXC0VhKII

Played on an original Erard fortepiano. 


(http://cdn.tower.jp/zc/o/14/zc1646614.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on January 19, 2011, 02:33:26 AM
Two more nocturnes from Alain Planès' recording called "Chez Pleyel"

Played on an original Pleyel fortepiano, obviously.


http://www.youtube.com/v/_zj1czmbrCw

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51QEcptlSVL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on January 21, 2011, 02:30:24 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/GPTNHe9dCvI

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51xP5yDGctL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on January 21, 2011, 02:37:41 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/jaRpgNQhcuo

(http://classiqueinfo-disque.com/spip/IMG/jpg/kuijken.jpg)

Novelleten op.21
No. 2: Aussert rasch und mit Bravour - Intermezzo : Etwas langsamer, durchaus zart - Erstes Tempo

Piet Kuijken (Wieland's son) plays an original JB Streicher fortepiano (1850) for this set

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 21, 2011, 04:57:52 PM
I have been finding a lot to enjoy in this one. Even though I am not the greatest fan in the world of Chopin, still, in smallish doses and well-played on a nice sounding instrument, I can handle a disk at a time quite nicely. :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/ChopinSchoonderwooerdcover.jpg)

8)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on January 21, 2011, 11:40:37 PM
I have been finding a lot to enjoy in this one. Even though I am not the greatest fan in the world of Chopin, still, in smallish doses and well-played on a nice sounding instrument, I can handle a disk at a time quite nicely. :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/ChopinSchoonderwooerdcover.jpg)

8)

http://www.youtube.com/v/h-2z-ss_5sM

From his more recent Chopin disc:

http://www.youtube.com/v/ziZ2v_nIYmE
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Lethevich on January 21, 2011, 11:52:03 PM
Are there any period instrument Schumann chamber music recordings?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on January 21, 2011, 11:59:45 PM
Are there any period instrument Schumann chamber music recordings?

Yes there are several.  One fair example here:

http://www.youtube.com/v/u9cGMoN0DnQ

(http://cover7.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/73/1097773.jpg)


Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: RJR on January 28, 2011, 10:01:27 AM
To Divertmentian,
I have not heard that recording either. But I have heard Ravel's own recording of the Bolero, and it exhibits a degree of freedom in phrasing that I miss in the standard 20th-century performances.

It's also a lot shorter, about ten minutes.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Lethevich on January 28, 2011, 01:50:31 PM
Yes there are several.  One fair example here:

(http://cover7.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/73/1097773.jpg)

Whoops, seems that I forgot to thank you for this. Sadly that recording sounds more servicable than great - I think that the Florestan Trio have spoiled a lot of Schumann's chamber music for me with their "perfect" renditions - everything else compares unfavourably :-\
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 28, 2011, 02:18:05 PM
Are there any period instrument Schumann chamber music recordings?

Some of them (including some Clara's compositions and keyboard music):

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5163HPraDsL._SS350_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41CBGUotKSL._SS350_.jpg)(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0822252221022.jpg)
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4260036250435.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515GcvsdzKL._SS350_.jpg)

I don't have this one (and not just Schumann), but it looks interesting:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0845221050409.jpg)

 :)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Lethevich on January 28, 2011, 02:20:06 PM
Ooh, those Clara couplings look nice. I really enjoy discs with a joint programme by these two - a very appealing "something old, something new" experience.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 28, 2011, 02:53:44 PM
Yes there are several.  One fair example here:

(http://cover7.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/73/1097773.jpg)

BTW, apparently when Chandos released this disc, it already existed a previous recording on Amon Ra, including both compositions on period instruments. At least, so it's claimed by our Bulldog in this review:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2003/Dec03/Schumann_piano_quintet.htm

(The piano quintet is also included in the disc Für meine Clara, but the Chandos disc is previous).  :)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on January 28, 2011, 03:28:15 PM
Are there any period instrument Schumann chamber music recordings?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51BSu9W19-L._SS500_.jpg)

Q :)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bulldog on January 28, 2011, 03:51:14 PM
BTW, apparently when Chandos released this disc, it already existed a previous recording on Amon Ra, including both compositions on period instruments. At least, so it's claimed by our Bulldog in this review:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2003/Dec03/Schumann_piano_quintet.htm

My claim is correct, as the Amon Ra disc has been in my home for quite a few years.  Aside from the fact that Chandos really screwed up on its "premire recording on period instruments" claim, the Amon Ra is the better disc (especially concerning the soundstage).
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: RJR on January 28, 2011, 06:14:29 PM
  David W,I did not say that"it's not okay to play 19th century music on period instruments." I don't object tot he performances per se.
  What annoys me are those people who say that this is the only way and assume that they are "finally giving us performances of the music as it should actually sound".
  In fact, I HAVE enjoyed some of these performanes. But when people dismiss performances of anything on modern instruments snootily, as some critics and HIP performers do,that really gets my goat. How do they know that Schubert,Schumann,Mendelssohn,Brahms etc would not have loved the way musicians playing modern instruments if they could come back and hear them?
I'm with you on that one, Superhorn.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on January 28, 2011, 10:24:48 PM
My claim is correct, as the Amon Ra disc has been in my home for quite a few years.

It's this one:

  (atrocious cover design)

I remember buying this after reading your review several years ago.  All I can say is that it's not really the 'better' disc for me.
We need more period performances of these works on disc, I think.  :)

La gaia scienza's recording of the quartet is on this one, but I have not tried nor heard it (mainly due to the undesirable coupling of Uri Caine.)




 


Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bulldog on January 28, 2011, 11:23:20 PM
It's this one:

  (atrocious cover design)

I remember buying this after reading your review several years ago.  All I can say is that it's not really the 'better' disc for me.

Do you recall the aspects of the Chandos that you preferred?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on January 28, 2011, 11:44:00 PM
Do you recall the aspects of the Chandos that you preferred?

No. It's more like a draw for me.  Neither stands out for me, and I didn't take either with me when I had to choose.  I picked the Michelangelo for an example when Lethe asked (you are welcome Lethe  ;))  because somebody already uploaded it to youtube. 

ps.  Do remember that the Michelangelo has an overall warmer sound.  The Amon Ra disc sounded puny and a bit metallic (typical of many non-recent digital recordings) on my Stax headphones. 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on January 29, 2011, 04:08:47 AM
It's this one:
La gaia scienza's recording of the quartet is on this one, but I have not tried nor heard it (mainly due to the undesirable coupling of Uri Caine.)



That is a really great performance, but not only undesirable because of the coupling with Uri Caine but even spoiled by mixing the tracks, which could have been overcome by programming the CD player in able to hear the Schumann uninterrupted. However, in one instance the music of Caine and the piano quartet run over into each other. So, a real major f*up! :o ??? ::)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on January 29, 2011, 04:13:19 AM
That is a really great performance, but not only undesirable because of the coupling with Uri Caine but even spoiled by mixing the tracks, which could have been overcome by programming the CD player in able to hear the Schumann uninterrupted. However, in one instance the music of Caine and the piano quartet run over into each other. So, a real major f*up! :o ??? ::)

Q

That's what I have heard about the disc as well.  Stopped me dead right in the tracks to buy it.  W&W have some strange ideas sometimes.

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bulldog on January 29, 2011, 09:03:10 AM
No. It's more like a draw for me.  Neither stands out for me, and I didn't take either with me when I had to choose.  I picked the Michelangelo for an example when Lethe asked (you are welcome Lethe  ;))  because somebody already uploaded it to youtube. 

ps.  Do remember that the Michelangelo has an overall warmer sound.  The Amon Ra disc sounded puny and a bit metallic (typical of many non-recent digital recordings) on my Stax headphones.

Yes, the Chandos did have the warmer/richer sound.  Since I found that this richer sound blurred the musical lines, the Amon Ra presented the better soundstage.

Well, I'm sad to hear that the Amon Ra was not to your liking.  Seems that you and I often have different views of recordings we both own.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on January 29, 2011, 03:47:35 PM
Well, I'm sad to hear that the Amon Ra was not to your liking.  Seems that you and I often have different views of recordings we both own.

Playback equipments often make a huge difference as they can radically change the character of a recording.  We can't possibly have listened to these recordings with the same sound system or same pair of ears. 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bulldog on January 29, 2011, 03:50:38 PM
Playback equipments often make a huge difference as they can radically change the character of a recording.  We can't possibly have listened to these recordings with the same sound system or same pair of ears.

I always listen to recordings I review on three or four different sound systems, so it must be the ears.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on January 29, 2011, 03:52:51 PM
I always listen to recordings I review on three or four different sound systems, so it must be the ears.

I am not so sure.  There are virtually endless ways of building a sound system.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on January 30, 2011, 12:23:31 AM
'Norrington' in the Czech Republic: Marek Štryncl and his enlarged period instrument ensemble Musica Florea play Dvořák

http://www.youtube.com/v/-hxlik8f0jc



(purchasable from Amazon uk)






Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Superhorn on January 30, 2011, 07:50:34 AM
   Gadzooks ! Philippe Herreweghe has just come out with an HIP recording of the Mahler 4th with his Champs Elysees orchestra. David Hurwitz at classicstoday.com thinks it's an awful performance and tears it apart.But I'm still curious to hear it,to find out what it sounds like.Apparently Herreweghe is planning to give the same treatment to the other 8 Mahler symphonies. Will"wonders"ever cease?
What next? "authentic performances of the Richard Strauss tone poems, and an HIP Sacre du Printemps to celelbrate the centennial of that seminal work?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bulldog on January 30, 2011, 08:28:04 AM
I am not so sure.  There are virtually endless ways of building a sound system.

That leaves us nowhere - so long.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on January 30, 2011, 10:21:16 PM
It's Schubert's 214th today!

http://www.youtube.com/v/6AdLfmTAOXs

http://www.youtube.com/v/eiFGbFofWZM




Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Opus106 on January 30, 2011, 10:29:52 PM
It's Schubert's 214th today!

Neato!
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on January 30, 2011, 11:20:06 PM
Neato!

Thanks!  It's good to know that we are not really O.D.'d on the anniversaries of all major composers yet.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Lethevich on January 31, 2011, 06:37:14 AM
I picked this up cheaply in a second hand store, and while I doubt I can offer any interesting observations, this thread seems ideal to point out its existence.



On the back cover each piece has the piano it is played on listed - there are about 6 in total raging from 1800-1840. It looks like a nice collection.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on January 31, 2011, 11:44:30 AM
On the back cover each piece has the piano it is played on listed - there are about 6 in total raging from 1800-1840. It looks like a nice collection.

Most of instruments Burnett plays on his recordings come from the Finchcocks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finchcocks) collection.  You can see from the list in the wikipedia article that it contains quite a few instruments.  Among other professional fortepianists in UK, Linda Nicholson also has a large personal collection of original instruments.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 01, 2011, 05:06:17 AM
   Gadzooks ! Philippe Herreweghe has just come out with an HIP recording of the Mahler 4th with his Champs Elysees orchestra. David Hurwitz at classicstoday.com thinks it's an awful performance and tears it apart.But I'm still curious to hear it,to find out what it sounds like.Apparently Herreweghe is planning to give the same treatment to the other 8 Mahler symphonies. Will"wonders"ever cease?
What next? "authentic performances of the Richard Strauss tone poems, and an HIP Sacre du Printemps to celelbrate the centennial of that seminal work?

I'm waiting for HIP Boulez.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on February 01, 2011, 05:26:29 AM
Philippe Herreweghe has just come out with an HIP recording of the Mahler 4th with his Champs Elysees orchestra.

Love the idea; wonder when the other recordings will be released.  I do like Slowik's recording of this work (chamber version) on PI.



http://www.youtube.com/v/xvZlNiOLVl4
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Opus106 on February 01, 2011, 05:29:37 AM
Love the idea; wonder when the other recordings will be released.  I do like Slowik's recording of this work (chamber version) on PI.

Why do you keep deleting and reposting your messages? ???

By the way, Herreweghe has also released Das Knaben Wunderhorn. It was a few years ago, and for HM.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on February 01, 2011, 07:13:35 AM
Why do you keep deleting and reposting your messages? ???

By the way, Herreweghe has also released Das Knaben Wunderhorn. It was a few years ago, and for HM.

To attract attention?  Thank you for responding.  ;)

Yes I bought H's DKW but do not have it with me at the moment.  Note his new Mahler is on a label (Phi), apparently of his own.  He's a bit like Gardiner now. 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on February 01, 2011, 11:31:33 AM
HIP Erik Satie.


Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on February 01, 2011, 12:02:25 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/iFPT6L4iQ-s

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: PaulSC on February 01, 2011, 02:17:00 PM
HIP Erik Satie.



Also

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on February 01, 2011, 03:38:21 PM
Also



Also



http://www.youtube.com/v/-AwWri7xPPs

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on February 02, 2011, 06:03:24 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/-abbCUMWdVs



Now that's a beautiful cover for an album.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on February 02, 2011, 11:41:34 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/LtsbiNQlV9E

A considered and well written review for this recording is on the page, too. http://tinyurl.com/6fjwojl





Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on February 02, 2011, 11:49:37 PM
I has been reissued in another coupling:



Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on February 02, 2011, 11:53:28 PM
I has been reissued in another coupling:



Q

Oh good.  It looks that Krehl doesn't sell.  ;)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on February 03, 2011, 01:16:48 PM
Oh good.  It looks that Krehl doesn't sell.  ;)

Well, I have the coupling with the Krell and it honestly isn't that hot whilst the Mozart performance is as absolutely stunning as the Brahms.

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on February 05, 2011, 11:38:04 AM
It appears to me that Lubimov may be temperamentally more suitable for Schubert than for Beethoven. 

http://www.youtube.com/v/JNM_Wrvuavg





 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Opus106 on February 05, 2011, 11:52:34 AM
It appears to me that Lubimov may be temperamentally more suitable for Schubert than for Beethoven.   

Is it just me, or is he playing more [crudeterminology]right-hand notes in between the left-hand ones[/crudeterminology]? Roughly, from 0:06-0:11.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on February 06, 2011, 12:00:25 AM
Is it just me, or is he playing more [crudeterminology]right-hand notes in between the left-hand ones[/crudeterminology]? Roughly, from 0:06-0:11.

'More' in comparison to what the score specifies?

Anyway, new solo Brahms album on a period instrument here:



I have the (so far) two volumes played by Hardy Rittner, of which this is from the first:

http://www.youtube.com/v/RFBC4pmNVEw




Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on February 06, 2011, 02:51:21 AM
It appears to me that Lubimov may be temperamentally more suitable for Schubert than for Beethoven. 

I have his Mozart set and it seems that applies there as well, still very nice though (the Mozart set).
Back to the topic at hand: Lubimov did before a marvelous Schubert disc with Staier(pictured in two guises):

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51mDVb6ymAL._SS400_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Tzf9awdUL._SS400_.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 06, 2011, 03:25:03 AM
I have his Mozart set and it seems that applies there as well, still very nice though (the Mozart set).
Back to the topic at hand: Lubimov did before a marvelous Schubert disc with Staier(pictured in two guises):

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51mDVb6ymAL._SS400_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Tzf9awdUL._SS400_.jpg)

Q

IMO Alexei Lubimov is one of the most fascinating keyboardist alive. Unfortunately he has only made a handful of recordings, another late fruit of the Evil Empire, I suppose. So every register by him is something to treasure.

IMO 2: His Mozart es absolutely idiomatic and mandatory. I would even say "essential" if those things existed in real life. The most aristocratic interpretations of Mozart's keyboard music that I have listened to.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on February 06, 2011, 05:31:54 AM
I have his Mozart set and it seems that applies there as well, still very nice though (the Mozart set).
Back to the topic at hand: Lubimov did before a marvelous Schubert disc with Staier(pictured in two guises)

I used to like Lubimov's Mozart a lot than I do now, and have it in original Erato single discs, all of them.  It's been a while since I heard those but I think they appeal mainly to more genteel tastes.  My feel of Mozart's music is more ambivalent these days.

To the topic at hand: I have only one disc of Schubert four-hand on fortepiano at the moment:



I haven't thought about buying the Staier-Lubimov disc because I am less interested in their choice of programme I think.


Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 06, 2011, 07:10:47 AM
I used to like Lubimov's Mozart a lot than I do now, and have it in original Erato single discs, all of them.  It's been a while since I heard those but I think they appeal mainly to more genteel tastes.  My feel of Mozart's music is more ambivalent these days.

To the topic at hand: I have only one disc of Schubert four-hand on fortepiano at the moment:

I haven't thought about buying the Staier-Lubimov disc because I am less interested in their choice of programme I think.

Although between them, they have virtually all of the main works. I have all of the 4 hands music, none of it on fortepiano. But seeing 4 of my favorite artists on these 2 disks is an enticement to spend too much money... :-\

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Chicago Symphony Orchestra / Solti 1972 - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 1st mvmt - Allegro ma non troppo, un poco maestoso
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Brian on February 06, 2011, 09:24:01 AM
It appears to me that Lubimov may be temperamentally more suitable for Schubert than for Beethoven. 



Oh, goodness, that's beautiful playing. My wallet is cowering in fear.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Drasko on February 06, 2011, 10:10:30 AM
IMO Alexei Lubimov is one of the most fascinating keyboardist alive. Unfortunately he has only made a handful of recordings, another late fruit of the Evil Empire, I suppose. So every register by him is something to treasure.

Lubimov's discography is much larger actually, there is some Bach Keyboard Concertos, Capriccios, Toccatas, French Baroque from Louis Couperin to Rameau and Forqueray, English Virginalists (Byrd, Bull, Gibbons), Frescobaldi, some German XVII century stuff, Keyboard Concertos by Bach's sons, early Mozart Concertos played on harpsichord .....
But all of it is stuck on Melodiya LPs, never made to CD. LP rips of some of it can usually be found on various Russian file sharing sites.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Opus106 on February 06, 2011, 10:16:01 AM
'More' in comparison to what the score specifies?

More in comparison to my Desert Island Disc of the works, played by Brendel. :) It's almost like Lubimov missed a note, or something. :-\
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 06, 2011, 10:21:43 AM
More in comparison to my Desert Island Disc of the works, played by Brendel. :) It's almost like Lubimov missed a note, or something. :-\

He tends at times to strike the melody note fractionally behind the bass note, producing a slight sense of arpeggiation. That practice was I believe noted with some early 20th-century pianists but is largely gone in modern mainstream performance. I suspect that may be what you mean, as I don't hear any actual missed notes.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Opus106 on February 06, 2011, 10:26:39 AM
He tends at times to strike the melody note fractionally behind the bass note, producing a slight sense of arpeggiation. That practice was I believe noted with some early 20th-century pianists but is largely gone in modern mainstream performance. I suspect that may be what you mean, as I don't hear any actual missed notes.

That was rather silly of me to say that he missed a note, sorry. :-[ Yes, he takes time, and in the gap, it appears that he is playing more notes with the left hand.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on February 06, 2011, 11:19:23 AM
More in comparison to my Desert Island Disc of the works, played by Brendel. :) It's almost like Lubimov missed a note, or something. :-\

Looking at the score might help to clarify this even more  :)

(http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/922/14210309.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Opus106 on February 06, 2011, 11:43:07 AM
Looking at the score might help to clarify this even more  :)

And looking is all I can do. :(
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 06, 2011, 02:44:36 PM
Oh, goodness, that's beautiful playing. My wallet is cowering in fear.

I agree. It's beautifully phrased. One especially fine moment: how he delays the downbeat at 3:43, when the melody soars to the high G natural. It's a very tricky piece to play, because the texture is so uniform (melody, bass line, inner arpeggios) that in the wrong hands it can easily become monotonous.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 06, 2011, 04:38:37 PM
But all of it is stuck on Melodiya LPs, never made to CD. LP rips of some of it can usually be found on various Russian file sharing sites.

It would be great if some day those old LPs were re-released on CD. I have found some of them in the web (Bach, Bach's sons, some French Baroque). Anyway, I would like to see another Lubimov's big project (like his set of Mozart piano sonatas), but then I think that maybe his own personality doesn't naturally tend towards that kind of projects. 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on February 07, 2011, 12:23:35 PM
Very 'HIP-sounding' Chopin on a Broadwood fortepiano  :)

http://www.youtube.com/v/GJ5nb7CWsBg



Love the cats!

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 08, 2011, 04:11:36 AM
Very 'HIP-sounding' Chopin on a Broadwood fortepiano  :)

You like this? What is the "historical" justification for those uneven rhythms in the main theme?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on February 08, 2011, 06:18:04 AM
You like this? What is the "historical" justification for those uneven rhythms in the main theme?

Go ask Mr Khouri yourself.  It's fun to listen to, historical or not.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 08, 2011, 06:29:01 AM
Go ask Mr Khouri yourself.  It's fun to listen to, historical or not.

I'm asking you. I bought one of this guy's other recordings before (used!), a set of Beethoven sonatas, and I was frankly appalled at the rhythmic inaccuracies and distortions (most annoying as I recall in the finale to Op. 27/1). As far as I'm concerned this isn't "historical" performance; it's simply sloppy, and the disc hit the trash after one hearing.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on February 08, 2011, 06:31:48 AM
I'm asking you.

Me, whatever for?  I didn't perform on those recordings you bought or listened to.  :P
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 08, 2011, 06:39:41 AM
Me, whatever for?  I didn't perform on those recordings you bought or listened to.  :P

Nor have you performed on any of the dozens of other HIP recordings you have advocated over the years. But since your interests appear to lie primarily in historical performance (and I do appreciate all these YouTubes you've uploaded to let the rest of us sample these recordings), I would hope you'd offer more substantial justification for some of these performances than (as M Forever put it a while back) than "just contributing a few hollow one-liners..."
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on February 08, 2011, 06:46:32 AM
Nor have you performed on any of the dozens of other HIP recordings you have advocated over the years. But since your interests appear to lie primarily in historical performance (and I do appreciate all these YouTubes you've uploaded to let the rest of us sample these recordings), I would hope you'd offer more substantial justification for some of these performances than (as M Forever put it a while back) than "just contributing a few hollow one-liners..."

Don't see where the forum rules state (hollow) one-liners are outlawed... Besides, as you said I have contributed more than one-liners now  :) Now, I think you'd better go to the performers themselves if you need to blame someone for your own response to the music they made.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 08, 2011, 06:58:26 AM
Don't see where the forum rules state (hollow) one-liners are outlawed... Besides, as you said I have contributed more than one-liners now  :) Now, I think you'd better go to the performers themselves if you need to blame someone for your own response to the music they made.

Neither I nor anyone else needs to "contact" any performers directly to ask them to explain their interpretations. The recordings have to make their own case, and we are each free to say yea or nay as we see fit. In the present case, there is no other "blame" needed than to respond to the recording itself.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on February 08, 2011, 07:08:52 AM
Neither I nor anyone else needs to "contact" any performers directly to ask them to explain their interpretations. The recordings have to make their own case, and we are each free to say yea or nay as we see fit. In the present case, there is no other "blame" needed than to respond to the recording itself.

Exactly.  So we agreed not to have the same response to John Khouri's performance here (I have not heard his Beethoven). What more is there that I need to answer for? 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 08, 2011, 07:21:00 AM
Exactly.  So we agreed not to have the same response to John Khouri's performance here (I have not heard his Beethoven). What more is there that I need to answer for?

You don't "need" to do anything. I am simply trying to understand what you like in this performance, and so far all you've said is that it is "HIP-sounding" and "fun to listen to," where I find it graceless and crude. If you don't care to respond further, that is obviously your prerogative. But the suggestion to "ask" Khouri himself originated with you.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on February 08, 2011, 08:03:41 AM
But the suggestion to "ask" Khouri himself originated with you.

You want to know how 'historically-informed' Khouri's interpretation really is, and for that I don't think I can make a more sensible recommendation than to go to the performer himself.  OK?  8) 


edit. To respected moderators: I am not sure that all exchanges here are really on topic. Could you help with the removal if some of them should actually go?

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 08, 2011, 08:20:00 AM
You want to know how 'historically-informed' Khouri's interpretation really is, and for that I don't think I can make a more sensible recommendation than to go to the performer himself.  OK?  8) 


edit. To respected moderators: I am not sure that all exchanges here are really on topic. Could you help with the removal if some of them should actually go?

I see nothing here that would call for deletion or other moderator intervention.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on February 09, 2011, 12:21:25 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/ws8HzRsFHf0

only available from czech sources I think: such as http://www.arta.cz/index.php?p=f10114en&site=en

Antiquarius Quartet Praga
Václav Návrat - violin (Franz Anton Wild, Brunn 1792)
Simona Tydlitátová - violin (Johann Christian Partl, Wien 1791)
Ivo Anýž - viola (Michael Wuller, Pragae 1785)
Petr Hejný - cello (Pellegrino Zanetto, Brescia 1581)

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: PaulSC on February 09, 2011, 12:55:39 AM
Antiquarius Quartet Praga
Václav Návrat - violin (Franz Anton Wild, Brunn 1792)
Simona Tydlitátová - violin (Johann Christian Partl, Wien 1791)
Ivo Anýž - viola (Michael Wuller, Pragae 1785)
Petr Hejný - cello (Pellegrino Zanetto, Brescia 1581)

That's an unusually old cello, isn't it?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on February 09, 2011, 01:33:17 AM
That's an unusually old cello, isn't it?

Since Antiquarius Praga's repertory usually focuses on pre-classical works, the cellist (a gambist too - I have a recording of him doing Abel) may simply use the same cello as when he plays, for example, František Tůma.  Varying bass instruments (e.g. changing a small violone to a bass violin etc.) usually matters less in overall sonority anyway in a performance.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: PaulSC on February 09, 2011, 02:09:57 AM
Oh, yes, I didn't mean inappropriately old -- and I don't presume the instrument would sound significantly different than one crafted, say, 75 years later. I just didn't imagine many pre-1600 cellos were still in regular use. And I'm no expert, so it was a genuine question, not a rhetorical one.

Anyway, thanks for posting the clip, I'll listen soon!
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on February 09, 2011, 03:14:49 AM
I just didn't imagine many pre-1600 cellos were still in regular use. And I'm no expert, so it was a genuine question, not a rhetorical one.

Anyway, thanks for posting the clip, I'll listen soon!

No problem at all - and thanks for listening.  BTW I've noticed some HIP cellists (e.g. Hidemi Suzuki in Japan; there must be others) frequently play pre-1600 instruments on their recordings.  In Suzuki's case, it is an Andrea Amati c. 1570 which sounds fabulous with gut strings.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on February 09, 2011, 05:10:18 AM
(http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/6764/chopininstitute.png)

The National Institute of Frederic Chopin in Warsaw is getting another Erard in their stable, this one made in 1838.  Olejniczak will play at the presentation concert.  Thrilled to think of those future 'Real Chopin' recordings that will be made on it!  :-*

http://en.chopin.nifc.pl/institute/events/news/id/2063
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: (: premont :) on February 09, 2011, 11:58:01 AM
Since Antiquarius Praga's repertory usually focuses on pre-classical works, the cellist (a gambist too - I have a recording of him doing Abel) may simply use the same cello as when he plays, for example, František Tůma.  Varying bass instruments (e.g. changing a small violone to a bass violin etc.) usually matters less in overall sonority anyway in a performance.

Of course they are free to choose the instruments they want. But it is a little special that they call this recording (se the advertising at the Arta home page)

Antonín Dvořák (1841 - 1904)
String Quartets on period instruments


using instruments which are that old (reversed anachronism is still anachronism).
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on February 09, 2011, 12:12:34 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/ws8HzRsFHf0

only available from czech sources I think: such as http://www.arta.cz/index.php?p=f10114en&site=en

Antiquarius Quartet Praga
Václav Návrat - violin (Franz Anton Wild, Brunn 1792)
Simona Tydlitátová - violin (Johann Christian Partl, Wien 1791)
Ivo Anýž - viola (Michael Wuller, Pragae 1785)
Petr Hejný - cello (Pellegrino Zanetto, Brescia 1581)

Of course they are free to choose the instruments they want. But it is a little special that they call this recording (se the advertising at the Arta home page)

Antonín Dvořák (1841 - 1904)
String Quartets on period instruments


using instruments which are that old (reversed anachronism is still anachronism).

I have that recording and it is definitely HIP - in terms of playing and of course gut strings - and very nice. Strongly recommended. :)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: (: premont :) on February 09, 2011, 01:47:56 PM
I have that recording and it is definitely HIP - in terms of playing and of course gut strings - and very nice. Strongly recommended. :)

Q

You can easily convince me that the playing style is HIP (everything is relative), and that the recording from a musical point of view is excellent - it is the term "period instruments" I do not understand in this context. Like playing Brahms on fortepiano.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 09, 2011, 02:06:21 PM
Like playing Brahms on fortepiano.

Which cannot be done because he requires the lowest A.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: (: premont :) on February 09, 2011, 02:23:44 PM
Which cannot be done because he requires the lowest A.

Yes I know, but this is besides my point.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on February 09, 2011, 03:19:14 PM

using instruments which are that old (reversed anachronism is still anachronism).

It is not unlikely that all four instruments heard on this recording were in use in that part of the nineteenth century when Dvorak was alive...
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on February 09, 2011, 11:27:16 PM
You can easily convince me that the playing style is HIP (everything is relative), and that the recording from a musical point of view is excellent - it is the term "period instruments" I do not understand in this context. Like playing Brahms on fortepiano.

It is not unlikely that all four instruments heard on this recording were in use in that part of the nineteenth century when Dvorak was alive...

According to the booklet that was indeed the basic idea. They use bows from the early-Romantic era. The term "period instrument" is always rather tricky when strings are concerned - al lot of them used are from the Baroque era anyway... But I'm always very glad with gut strings - makes the biggest difference in sound.

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on February 10, 2011, 01:34:44 AM
But I'm always very glad with gut strings - makes the biggest difference in sound.

Must agree with you there.  I've read a few people talking about how a 'period sound' can be replicated on all-modern instruments by playing them in a special way.  Examples of Antonini, Mackerras et al come to mind.  Not really - not in my own experiences anyway.  Used to the gut string sound, I simply find the steely strings in Mackerras' Mozart (w/Scottish CO) on Linn really hard on ears.  Ended up giving the set to my partner who (and I both) thinks the interpretation is good.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Brian on February 11, 2011, 05:00:23 PM
Hiya, HIPsters!

In case the bottom line of text is too small to read, the pianos used in this new Naxos release are by Caspar Katholnig, Vienna, c. 1805-1810, and Johann Nepomuk Trondlin, Leipzig, 1830. Sounds exciting, especially with the rather surprising prospect of a world premiere Beethoven recording.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on February 22, 2011, 03:46:16 AM
A Brahms trio that has been recorded more often on period instruments.  Must be the Waldhorn sound.

http://www.youtube.com/v/9oq2Nez7bxg

Abegg Trio on period instruments

Ulrich Beetz, violin (Lupot 1821)
Geritt Zitterbart, pianoforte (JB Streicher 1864)
Stephan Katte, horn (after Lausmann c. 1800)

image:
Hokusai: Flute Player on Mt. Fuji 葛飾北斎 富士と笛吹童




Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: FideLeo on March 05, 2011, 02:56:09 AM
This recording of the 'Arpeggione' sonata (authentically arranged for violin and pianoforte) is worth listening just for the scintillating sound captured off the original 1823 Graf fortepiano, here played by the experienced Jörg Demus.  Thomas Albertus Irnberger also turns in a passionate performance.

http://www.youtube.com/v/NTPAnaSK9Ro


Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on April 03, 2011, 11:10:48 PM
I'm really glad to find this thread. I'm a bit obsessed with HIP recordings. I have to go through this site more as I'm also interested in seeing discussions of HIP Baroque, Classical and Impressionist music.
I have a lot of questions to ask the experts here and I don't want to be redundant. Let me try out one request:
Has anyone here been following (sorry if it's already in the thread and I missed it) Tobias Koch's recordings of Schumann?
In addition to the solo recordings he has produced he also released a recording that I love with Lisa Landgraf of Schumann's complete works for keyboard and violin (Staier also has a somewhat new recording of Schumann's violin and keyboard music).
I'm wondering if anyone has heard it?
I also recently downloaded an odd recording by Martin Schmeding on a pedal piano of Schumann's pedal piano music. I'm really enjoying it. Sorry, I have to figure out how to put images from amazon in these comments (do you just copy the URL or is there some other way?).
Thanks for the indulgence; sorry if I'm wasting anyone's time here.
Also, the new Lubimov recording of Beethoven's last sonatas is interesting. I like it. I wonder what others think. I've been comparing that to Penelope Crawford's new recording of the same pieces. Looks like they both use a Graf.
Do people here generally hold the Atlantis Trio's/ensemble's recordings in high regard? 
I'd also love to know what people think of the Victoria Mullova & Kristian Bezuidenhout Beethoven recording vs. Linda Nicholson & Hiro Kurosaki and their ongoing Beethoven project.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on April 10, 2011, 06:43:07 PM
New issue! :)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4015023242388.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Lethevich on April 10, 2011, 06:57:57 PM
I'm amazed they managed to fit all that onto two CDs. Looks interesting indeed, I like Vermeulen's Schubert.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 11, 2011, 08:40:54 AM
New issue! :)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4015023242388.jpg)

Q

Yummy!  :)

Apparently, Vermeulen emigrated to Accent. I also saw this disc with Haydn's lieders:

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on April 16, 2011, 01:40:43 AM
I mentioned this on another thread but since I'm enjoying this at the moment I thought I'd throw it up here:

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on April 16, 2011, 03:58:22 AM
Also



http://www.youtube.com/v/-AwWri7xPPs

I've had the Burman-Hall for a while and enjoyed it but the Cohen recording blew me away. I'm not musically educated so it'd be interesting to read more infirmed comments on it. I guess Cohen's piano really predates Satie and the Burman-hall is more period-accurate. However, Cohen's recording just sends me!
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on April 16, 2011, 04:08:37 AM
Can anyone comment on this recording? It's on my to-buy list. Should it be?



Does anyone have a comment on the new Schoonderwoerd recoding of Georg Wilhelm Gruber?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on April 16, 2011, 04:27:18 AM
Other questions to throw out here while I'm at it: Has anyone seen any HIP recordings of Faure's piano quartets? Does anyone have any opinion of these pieces or this recording (An Erard c. 1900 is used)?

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Leo K. on May 07, 2011, 07:44:55 AM
My listening begins this morning...  ;D

Brahms: Symphony No.4 in E Minor
John Eliot Gardiner


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51f0flxijRL.jpg)

I’m finally hearing Gardiner’s Brahms cycle, and I’m simply amazed by what I’m hearing. My usual go-to recordings of Brahms are Furtwangler, Bernstein, Abbado and Rattle’s new recording. I usually like my Brahms mushy, gray, and romantic. With the exception of “gray” this is how I like my Mahler too, but recently I heard Norrington’s approach to Mahler, through the Mahler 2 and 9, and found myself intrigued by the objectivity, and transparent clearness, with no vibrato. Since I’m a fan of HIP in classical and early romantic, I guess my enjoyment was predictable. So, this last week I was ready to try this HIP approach to another obsession of mine: Brahms.

This morning, I’m focusing on the Gardiner’s Brahms’ 4th in E Minor, and wow, this recording is a revelation. Leaner, sharper, transparent, colorful, and nothing I’ve heard before in this Symphony. This is my first taste of HIP Brahms, and I’m glad to hear how different Brahms’ orchestration sounds, how colorful in timbre, how exhilarating the texture of the orchestration as performed here. The vibrato-less texture is like a cold, breath of fresh air, with atmosphere and rough edges to the tone! The themes and construction of the musical phrases sound no less the powerful with this quality of transparency. The deep, inner structures of the musical argument are heard in the orchestration without losing subtlety, and Brahms keeps his masculine sound, AND his rough, unsentimental-yet-sentimental manner, intact.

Brahms: Symphony No.1 in C minor
John Eliot Gardiner


(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_QRZYo0fxR5c/TMUEtkU0zYI/AAAAAAAADzQ/I2JQxFx9lQo/cover1.jpg)

Okay, my experience with the Brahms 4 (as seen above) was so enjoyable that I went right to Gardiner’s rendition of the 1st Symphony in C Minor. Gardiner’s choice of Choral extras are a revelation as well, and add to the overall experience of the feature presentation of the symphony. The program for this recording is as follows:

Brahms: Begräbnisgesang, Op.13 (‘Funeral Anthem’)
Mendelssohn: Mitten wir im Leben sind (‘In the midst of life’) Op.23, No.3
Brahms: Schicksalslied (‘Song of Destiny’), Op.54
Brahms: Symphony No. 1 in C Minor, Op.68

John Eliot Gardiner states in an interview:

"When we approach Brahms nowadays the temptation is to concentrate exclusively on his orchestral output - the overtures, concertos and symphonies - and replicate a safe 'meat-and-two-veg' approach. But the more I thought about it, the more convinced I became that a worthwhile approach would be to juxtapose his symphonies with vocal music - music which Brahms himself cherished (studied, edited and conducted) - and so to set them in a historical Brahms-specific context rather presenting an encyclopaedic survey of all his orchestral output".

I don’t  listen to HIP and imagine this is what the music originally sounded like, I listen to HIP to hear the texture of these old instruments, and that said, the result here is uplifting, and the orchestration textured and organic. I LOVE no vibrato, as the tone of no vibrato sounds like a transparent wind, a breath of fresh air. This performance exhibits this wonderful sound, that is heard with these old instruments.

 8)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 07, 2011, 08:06:40 AM
I have Gardiner's Schumann symphonies, and they actually sold the works to me. Of course, the Brahms' don't need any selling from MY POV, but still, I can easily see myself liking these (since my favorites right now are Mackerras / Scottish). Thanks, Leo, hadn't noted these before. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
English Baroque Soloists / Gardiner Bilson/Levin - K 316a 365 Concerto #10 in Eb for 2 Pianos 2nd mvmt - Andante
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 07, 2011, 08:09:40 AM
These, actually:


&



8)

----------------
Now playing:
English Baroque Soloists / Gardiner Bilson/Levin - K 316a 365 Concerto #10 in Eb for 2 Pianos 2nd mvmt - Andante
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Leo K. on May 07, 2011, 08:10:21 AM
I have Gardiner's Schumann symphonies, and they actually sold the works to me. Of course, the Brahms' don't need any selling from MY POV, but still, I can easily see myself liking these (since my favorites right now are Mackerras / Prague). Thanks, Leo, hadn't noted these before. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
English Baroque Soloists / Gardiner Bilson/Levin - K 316a 365 Concerto #10 in Eb for 2 Pianos 2nd mvmt - Andante

Gurn, if you like the Gardiner Schumann set (as I do too), I'm SURE you will love the Brahms cycle by Gardiner.

I really LOVE that Schumann set too!  8)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 07, 2011, 08:11:36 AM
Gurn, if you like the Gardiner Schumann set (as I do too), I'm SURE you will love the Brahms cycle by Gardiner.

I really LOVE that Schumann set too!  8)

Yeah, I guess now I'm gonna have to commit. :-\      :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
English Baroque Soloists / Gardiner Bilson/Levin - K 316a 365 Concerto #10 in Eb for 2 Pianos 2nd mvmt - Andante
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Lethevich on May 07, 2011, 02:54:42 PM
I really dig those Gardiner Brahms issues too. If anything, it is the intelligent couplings that keep bringing me back to the discs. The performances are fine, but not as revelatory as I could have perhaps expected - but the typical Gardiner quality is there. The beautifully selected and performed choral pieces accompanying each disc, however, are an ideal antedote to a millionth recording of the Tragic Overture.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Leo K. on May 08, 2011, 05:17:20 AM
I really dig those Gardiner Brahms issues too. If anything, it is the intelligent couplings that keep bringing me back to the discs. The performances are fine, but not as revelatory as I could have perhaps expected - but the typical Gardiner quality is there. The beautifully selected and performed choral pieces accompanying each disc, however, are an ideal antedote to a millionth recording of the Tragic Overture.

You are right, the couplings on Gardiner's Brahms disks really enhance his performances of the Symphonies, and partly why I'm drooling over this cycle  ;D
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2011, 07:19:14 AM
You are right, the couplings on Gardiner's Brahms disks really enhance his performances of the Symphonies, and partly why I'm drooling over this cycle  ;D

Wonder if they will soon be out in a box set like the Schumann is. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
NYPO \ Bernstein \ Martina Arroyo \ Regina Sarfaty \ Nicholas di Virgilio \ Norman Scott - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 2nd mvmt - Molto vivace
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Opus106 on May 08, 2011, 07:29:53 AM
Wonder if they will soon be out in a box set like the Schumann is. :)

Inevitable. :) But the news (or not quite) is that he has/is also recorded/recording/about to record the German Requiem this year. If they would come out with just the symphonies in a box right now, I won't complain. 0:)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2011, 07:31:54 AM
Inevitable. :) But the news (or not quite) is that he has/is also recorded/recording/about to record the German Requiem this year. If they would come out with just the symphonies in a box right now, I won't complain. 0:)

Yeah, that would work for me too. Already got plenty of singing on there as it is... :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
NYPO \ Bernstein - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 3rd mvmt - Adagio molto e cantabile
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on May 08, 2011, 08:36:46 AM
I've got all the Koch recordings but I saw this and couldn't resist downloading it. Looking forward to listening to it tomorrow:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51UAxAfTIJL.jpg)

These are selections from Album Für Die Jugend, Op. 68, as well as Kinderszenen, Op. 15.

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Leo K. on May 08, 2011, 10:03:34 AM
I've got all the Koch recordings but I saw this and couldn't resist downloading it. Looking forward to listening to it tomorrow:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51UAxAfTIJL.jpg)

These are selections from Album Für Die Jugend, Op. 68, as well as Kinderszenen, Op. 15.

Thanks for the heads up on this  8)

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on May 08, 2011, 08:41:27 PM
Thanks for the heads up on this  8)

Your welcome. I'm enjoying it today. I've got Schumann on the brain. The Staier "Tribute to Bach" along with Koch and Landgraf's Violin recording are amongst my favorites. This may become a favorite also.
 
Here's something else I'm looking into:
(http://blog.codaex.de/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Bach-in-romantischer-Manier.jpg)

These are Bach arrangements by romantic composers:
Bach, J S:
Partita for solo violin No. 2 in D minor, BWV1004: Chaconne
with piano accompaniments by Mendelssohn, Ressel and Schumann
Partita for solo violin No. 3 in E major, BWV1006: Preludio
with accompaniment by Mendelssohn
Sonata for Violin & Harpsichord No. 3 in E major, BWV1016: Adagio ma non tanto - Allegro
with piano accompaniments by Schumann
Sonata for solo violin No. 2 in A minor, BWV1003: Andante sostenuto
with piano accompaniments by Schumann
Mendelssohn:
Violin Sonata in F major (1838): Allegro vivace

 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on May 09, 2011, 06:40:59 AM
Concerning the "Romantic Bach" album, I'd just love to read comments from people who really know about music. I don't know what to make of it. I'm definitely inclined to purchase it. I really want to know more about how to approach this curious recording.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on June 22, 2011, 03:00:13 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-jz5pgKjL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)(http://cdn.7static.com/static/img/sleeveart/00/007/379/0000737989_350.jpg)
There is so much beauty and charm in Schumann's Studies for pedal piano. I've been enjoying listening to these two recordings. One employs two wonderful sounding period pianos (La Gaia Scienza, Federica Valli & Lorenzo Ghielmi) and the other uses a pedal piano (Martin Schmeding). Nice to have both!

I don't know of any other recordings of these pieces using a pedal piano.
 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: kishnevi on June 22, 2011, 05:26:20 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-jz5pgKjL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)(http://cdn.7static.com/static/img/sleeveart/00/007/379/0000737989_350.jpg)
There is so much beauty and charm in Schumann's Studies for pedal piano. I've been enjoying listening to these two recordings. One employs two wonderful sounding period pianos (La Gaia Scienza, Federica Valli & Lorenzo Ghielmi) and the other uses a pedal piano (Martin Schmeding). Nice to have both!

I don't know of any other recordings of these pieces using a pedal piano.

Not pedal piano, but on organ--
There is this relatively new release (ie, one week ago), about which I know nothing:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51QRTy8p-NL._SS400_.jpg)
and this one which I have, and hesitate to suggest, since it didn't really impress me.  Either Schumann was not that inspired in these pieces or Hospach-Martini had done him a great disservice.  The organ, however,  has been restored to a state approximating what it was like during Schumann's life, so in a way it qualifies for the period performance label.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51IHATdye6L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Mandryka on June 23, 2011, 11:28:47 AM
I was listening to some Chopin  Op 48/1 recordings today. There are some really special ones on a modern instrument. Listen to how Sofronitsky played it in 1949 for example -- the way he disrupts the singing line with a threatening rumble in the bass, right from the start. Not a moment of solace in this interpretation. And listen to Moravec -- the tragedy when his disarmingly innocent plea in the central section is crushed, destroyed, annihilated by a machine gun's rapid rattle.

But the HIP recordings I have are all bland by comparison -- I have Boegner and Van Oort. As far as I can hear these guys have zilch to say with the music -- they just type it out. And, more importantly maybe,  you gain zilch by the sonorities of the old  instrument.  You might prefer the sound of their old pianos to Sofronitsky's or Moravec's. If so, fair enough. But the tonal qualities of their pianos don't and anything to the poetry, the meaning,  of the music. It's just a different tone.

The only HIP Chopin recording I have heard where I remember thinking "wow, this is something new and special; this is something where the piano is making a real imprtant difference to the meaning of the music" is Lubimov's Berceuse.

Maybe I've missed something though.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Drasko on June 23, 2011, 11:44:34 AM
Of hip 48/1s I thought Olejniczak to be fine. Very slow and very sad opening, with sense of resignation prevailing over whole piece, so when he whips up the storm sounds more like hollow rage than putting up a fight. Toward the ending gets bit plain.
Can't say that his piano adds per se anything to his interpretation (for me at least).

Can be streamed here:
http://en.chopin.nifc.pl//chopin/composition/detail/id/242
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: kishnevi on June 23, 2011, 12:12:25 PM
I was listening to some Chopin  Op 48/1 recordings today. There are some really special ones on a modern instrument. Listen to how Sofronitsky played it in 1949 for example -- the way he disrupts the singing line with a threatening rumble in the bass, right from the start. Not a moment of solace in this interpretation. And listen to Moravec -- the tragedy when his disarmingly innocent plea in the central section is crushed, destroyed, annihilated by a machine gun's rapid rattle.

But the HIP recordings I have are all bland by comparison -- I have Boegner and Van Oort. As far as I can hear these guys have zilch to say with the music -- they just type it out. And, more importantly maybe,  you gain zilch by the sonorities of the old  instrument.  You might prefer the sound of their old pianos to Sofronitsky's or Moravec's. If so, fair enough. But the tonal qualities of their pianos don't and anything to the poetry, the meaning,  of the music. It's just a different tone.

The only HIP Chopin recording I have heard where I remember thinking "wow, this is something new and special; this is something where the piano is making a real imprtant difference to the meaning of the music" is Lubimov's Berceuse.

Maybe I've missed something though.

Perhaps the player's affinities really lie elsewhere.  I have very little in the way of mid 19th century HIP--some chamber music and one CD of orchestral Liszt that includes Totentanz with a period appropriate Erard.  The differences from modern instruments to me are not important enough to justify them as anything except a change of pace.

OTOH, fortepiano performances of works before, say, 1825,  do  have a substantial impact.    I was listening to  some of van Oort's Mozart set last night--impressed so much that  I abandoned my earlier listening plans for the evening and played three CDs straight through; would have played a fourth one except it was getting to be too late.   Done so well it made me wonder if I even want to hear these works on a modern piano.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on June 23, 2011, 02:08:59 PM
I was listening to some Chopin  Op 48/1 recordings today. There are some really special ones on a modern instrument. Listen to how Sofronitsky played it in 1949 for example -- the way he disrupts the singing line with a threatening rumble in the bass, right from the start. Not a moment of solace in this interpretation. And listen to Moravec -- the tragedy when his disarmingly innocent plea in the central section is crushed, destroyed, annihilated by a machine gun's rapid rattle.

But the HIP recordings I have are all bland by comparison -- I have Boegner and Van Oort. As far as I can hear these guys have zilch to say with the music -- they just type it out. And, more importantly maybe,  you gain zilch by the sonorities of the old  instrument.  You might prefer the sound of their old pianos to Sofronitsky's or Moravec's. If so, fair enough. But the tonal qualities of their pianos don't and anything to the poetry, the meaning,  of the music. It's just a different tone.

The only HIP Chopin recording I have heard where I remember thinking "wow, this is something new and special; this is something where the piano is making a real imprtant difference to the meaning of the music" is Lubimov's Berceuse.

Maybe I've missed something though.

I have a recording of this piece by Alain Planès on a Pleyel. I can't say anything about it (except that I enjoy it). (http://media.classicalstore.com/cache/w200/products-00-0024-00241891-alain-planes-chopin-chez-pleyel.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Mandryka on June 23, 2011, 09:34:38 PM
Perhaps the player's affinities really lie elsewhere.  I have very little in the way of mid 19th century HIP--some chamber music and one CD of orchestral Liszt that includes Totentanz with a period appropriate Erard.  The differences from modern instruments to me are not important enough to justify them as anything except a change of pace.

OTOH, fortepiano performances of works before, say, 1825,  do  have a substantial impact.    I was listening to  some of van Oort's Mozart set last night--impressed so much that  I abandoned my earlier listening plans for the evening and played three CDs straight through; would have played a fourth one except it was getting to be too late.   Done so well it made me wonder if I even want to hear these works on a modern piano.

I think 1825 or thereabouts is a good cut off point.  By the mid 19th century  the large differences between period and modern keyboards evident in Mozart recordings are long gone.


Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on June 24, 2011, 02:26:27 AM
I think 1825 or thereabouts is a good cut off point.  By the mid 19th century  the large differences between period and modern keyboards evident in Mozart recordings are long gone.

I enjoy my romantic HIP recordings and, to my ears, the instruments have a very different sound. I do agree that the difference between the modern piano and Mozart's Walter is more pronounced than the difference between a modern piano and a turn-of-the-century Erard. Robert Levin makes a good case for playing Mozart on the fortepiano:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-DEhpPgtSY&playnext=1&list=PLC4FAC84BBF03605B

However, I also don't think anyone will mistake the Streicher (I think it is?) Arthur Schoonderwoerd plays on his recording of the Beethoven concertos for a modern piano. It's quite different.

Even if the difference is less pronounced on mid to late-century pianos, it exists. I'm not musically educated enough to say anything except that I enjoy the sounds
made by these instruments - with their absence of iron frames and their leather hammers.

I like this video as it explains something about romantic-period pianos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E714khu3MPc

I enjoy these instruments and I love the Staier Schumann recording, although I admit that the Kinderscenen tracks are not my favorite tracks on it.
I'm just not as involved in Chopin's music as I am in Schumann's but I do like the Alain Planès recording. I'm really ignorant about music and about the famous recordings mentioned so I'll leave it to others to say whether modern-instrument recordings are simply better. Perhaps they are. 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on June 24, 2011, 07:12:19 AM
This is a little off topic from the Romantics but I was just musing on another thread about how much I love Patrick Cohen's Satie recording. He plays on a pre-period piano - I think it's an 1855 Erard. The piano really sounds great (IMO) and both it and the performance convince.   
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: kishnevi on June 24, 2011, 09:07:23 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-DEhpPgtSY&playnext=1&list=PLC4FAC84BBF03605B

However, I also don't think anyone will mistake the Streicher (I think it is?) Arthur Schoonderwoerd plays on his recording of the Beethoven concertos for a modern piano. It's quite different.


I have Tan's recording of the Beethoven concertos.  Yes, it does make a difference.  Which is why I  suggested 1825 as a cut-off point.

But, while the differences between a fortepiano and  a modern piano are fairly obvious, the differences between a piano of Liszt's era and a modern piano are for me too subtle to make an impact.     Liszt played on a piano of 1850 simply sounds like he's being played on an old piano, and nothing more. 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Mandryka on June 24, 2011, 10:01:54 AM
Indeed there's no dispute for Beethoven.

Let me post again Lubimov's berceuse to see whether people agree with me that the piano is here making quite a difference to the feel of the music. An Erard

http://www.goear.com/files/external.swf?file=8afd576
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on June 24, 2011, 02:52:50 PM
I have Tan's recording of the Beethoven concertos.  Yes, it does make a difference.  Which is why I  suggested 1825 as a cut-off point.

But, while the differences between a fortepiano and  a modern piano are fairly obvious, the differences between a piano of Liszt's era and a modern piano are for me too subtle to make an impact.     Liszt played on a piano of 1850 simply sounds like he's being played on an old piano, and nothing more.

I have lots of recordings past the cut-off. The difference is subtler but, for me, the difference does make an impact in some cases. I'm not sure the distinction we're making here. They do sound like old pianos because that's what they are. It's true that sometimes it's just a novelty perhaps. But not in all cases. The 1897 Erard Immerseel uses on his Debussy recording may impact his performance more than the sound of the instrument. I have Daniel Grimwood's Liszt recording on a 1851 Erard. I'm not sure I could pick these pianos out of an audio line-up. The difference is nuanced. However, the 1835 Conrad Graf used on the new Atlantis Ensemble recording of Schumann's Quartets (and many of their other recordings) is quite different - and effectively so. Of course the gut strings and style of performances are also quite different but this is another area of discussion. The differences are subtler but, I would say for me, still effective sometimes. I do sometimes ask myself why I stick with some these later HIP recordings. Well, there's a story about Woody Allen bumping into two lamps within the span of a few minutes. His remark: "I'm going to bump into every lamp is see today just for symmetry."

     
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Luke on June 25, 2011, 01:32:49 AM
I have lots of recordings past the cut-off. The difference is subtler but, for me, the difference does make an impact in some cases. I'm not sure the distinction we're making here. They do sound like old pianos because that's what they are. It's true that sometimes it's just a novelty perhaps. But not in all cases. The 1897 Erard Immerseel uses on his Debussy recording may impact his performance more than the sound of the instrument. I have Daniel Grimwood's Liszt recording on a 1851 Erard. I'm not sure I could pick these pianos out of an audio line-up. The difference is nuanced. However, the 1835 Conrad Graf used on the new Atlantis Ensemble recording of Schumann's Quartets (and many of their other recordings) is quite different - and effectively so. Of course the gut strings and style of performances are also quite different but this is another area of discussion. The differences are subtler but, I would say for me, still effective sometimes. I do sometimes ask myself why I stick with some these later HIP recordings. Well, there's a story about Woody Allen bumping into two lamps within the span of a few minutes. His remark: "I'm going to bump into every lamp is see today just for symmetry."

   

That Grimwood recording of the Liszt Annees de Pelerinage is one I keep meaning to recommend on this thread. I think it is spectacular - Grimwood's playing is very ful of verve and fire and poetry. But the sound of the instrument makes the most enormous difference, for me. The works stand revealed as something completly different; the registral differentiation which the instrument makes possible introduces varieties of light and shade and colour which the music needs very much (in the first book above all, and that is where this recording scores most highly IMO). Listening to this set in the last week I kept thnking - perhaps Liszt was more adventurous, more extreme, more ambitious elsewhere, both before and after this, but nevertheless I think these works are the most polished, complete, potential-fulfilling thing he ever did; not a moment of slack, not a moment structurally misjudged or without poetic import. Maybe that is so - but maybe the revelatory impact of the instrument on the music also has something to do with this reaction of mine!



The Amzon UK reviews are bang on the money, particularly the third one, which is a perceptive and accurate piece of writing; might as well copy and paste them here:

Quote from: Amazon reviewers
9 of 10 people found the following review helpful:
5.0 out of 5 stars Exquisite, majestic and beguiling!, 19 April 2009
By Lexicon (UK) - See all my reviewsThis review is from: Liszt: Annees de pelerinage (Audio CD)

Grimwood's rendition of Liszt's works impresses beyond the normal expectations one has. Here, you won't find brashness or any sort of the normal contrived conceit that pianists generally exhibit. This is a player of immense technical, musical, artistic and intellectual genius: his choice of instrument in the Erard a testament to this. Although this pianist packs an almighty punch in terms of power-playing, with its chandelier-like treble register, Grimwood plays the more watery, rapid passage with genuine delicacy and clarity that very few pianists could manage on an instrument of this type.

Throughout the CD, one is also struck by a rare commodity that Grimwood displays throughout his entire repertoire: startling lyricism. His ability to find the voicings of hidden melodies and rhythms is eye-opening - a knack that only musicians with a keen ear and deeper instinct for such complexities are capable of pulling off. One is reminded of some of Argerich's abilities here: passages of her rendition of Rachmaninoff's 3rd Piano Concerto seem to be completely different pieces of music when one hears them for the first time. What melodies and opportunities for rhythmic excitement other pianists miss, she captured with a musical tenacity and verve. Grimwood too possesses that power, and his Liszt recordings harken towards a musician and pianist that has Greatness at his fingertips and a deepening respect and renown from his peers and mentors alike.


2 of 2 people found the following review helpful:
5.0 out of 5 stars In pellegrinaggio con Liszt, 16 Sep 2010
By pablot68 (Italy) - See all my reviewsThis review is from: Liszt: Annees de pelerinage (Audio CD)

L'ascoltatore si mette idealmente in viaggio alla volta di luoghi reali e letterari, seguendo l'ispirazione romantica di Franz Liszt. La formidabile tecnica e l'eccezionale spessore di Daniel Grimwood sono esaltati dal pianoforte Erard, uno splendido strumento del 1851: suoni smussati, caldi, evocativi, di grande impatto.


3 of 4 people found the following review helpful:
5.0 out of 5 stars Liszt From a Liszt Epoch Piano, 23 Oct 2009
By Bing-Alguin - See all my reviewsThis review is from: Liszt: Annees de pelerinage (Audio CD)

It has been a glorious year or so for all Lisztians, or Lisztomaniacs, if you prefer that term. Brilliant Classics 10 CD box "Great Liszt Interpreters Play Liszt" was such an exuberant revelation, as regards old, established players like Cziffra, Berman and Earl Wild as well as young, still promising pianists like Klára Würtz and Artur Pizarro.
An essential contribution comes from SFZ Music. On two CDs, Daniel Grimwood plays the whole suites of "Années de Pélerinage", both the First Year from Switzerland and the Second and Third years from Italy, those remarkable travel music pieces Liszt composed during his journeys in these countries. Grimwood plays them excellently and in a very personal way, revealing him as an important pianist and a Liszt expert with a deep feeling for the special qualities of Liszt's music. Maybe he is mentally most affiliated with the great Swiss numbers: "Chapelle de Guillaume Tell", "Au Lac de Wallenstadt", "Au Bord d'une Source" and that long, sweeping devotion to Romantic nature and rêverie, "Vallée d'Obermann". But he has a strong creative and emotional approach also to some of the Italian impressions, in particular the brilliant, glittering and fountain-imitating "Les Jeux d'Eaux à la Villa d'Este" and most of all "Aprés une lecture de Dante", one of Liszt's greatest creations, full of agitation, excitement and diabolic atmosphere in the most phantasmagorical way of High Romanticism. Whereas I am less convinced by the interpretation of the musical settings of three Petrarca sonnets, which are slightly under-characterized.
Noteworthy is Grimwood's way of playing these travel pieces without a distinct pause between them, as if they were a rolling, continuous report from a journey. It makes a surprising and elucidatory effect, like a perpetual wandering through a Romantic landscape, an external as well as an internal one.
But still more remarkable is the piano played by Daniel Grimwood. It is an Érard piano, and the Érard pianos were Liszt's own favourite instruments. In fact, he often had three of them on the podium in order to be able to change piano after the character of the music piece he was going to play. So this is the way Liszt's own piano playing must have sounded! And how does it sound? There is nothing of these hard, bombastic, almost boisterous and over-resounding tone cascades, so often dominant in traditional Liszt playing of our days. No thunderstorms, no desperately hasty runs along the keyboard... The tone is gentle and intimate, mellow, creating a more indoor cosiness, mildly reverberant and utmost impressive. This is soft Liszt!!! And it is delightful and attractive to listen to, musically pleasing in quite another way than the more traditional playing on the pianos of our age.
So these CDs give your Liszt listening a new and very pleasurable feeling. It maybe will change your view of Liszt's music. As Daniel Grimwood points out in his informative annotations, Liszt is still "subject of controversy, prejudice and misunderstanding". Perhaps it is due to our conventional playing of his music? Nobody can have strong objections when hearing Liszt from an Érard piano, I suppose. This is a great experience of great music.
So listen to these records and be still more impressed by the genius of Liszt, or, if you don't appreciate his music, take a chance to change your mind! And please, SFZ Music and Daniel Grimwood, more Liszt! More Liszt on an Érard piano, please!
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on June 25, 2011, 01:51:48 AM
I've enjoyed the Grimwood recording but perhaps I need to delve deeper into it. I also enjoy these cello pieces - although they are quite dark. Here Immerseel plays two Erads: one from 1886 and a baby grand from 1897.
(http://www.loganartsmanagement.com/files/Sergei-Istomin/Istomin-CDs/Istomin-Liszt_300.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on July 02, 2011, 09:23:18 PM
(http://a4.mzstatic.com/us/r1000/008/Music/01/ff/f9/mzi.jukoznff.170x170-75.jpg)

Liv Glaser & Ernst Simon Glaser perform Schumann's cello and piano pieces. Magnificent!
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on August 21, 2011, 09:36:18 AM
What a coincidence: the HIP-debate heated up and just now the significance of HIP for Romantic repertoire is being discussed.

And along comes this recording! :)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/3149020208229.jpg)

The list of performers look pretty good to me - my curiosity is more than piqued. 8)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: kishnevi on August 21, 2011, 06:22:36 PM
What a coincidence: the HIP-debate heated up and just now the significance of HIP for Romantic repertoire is being discussed.

And along comes this recording! :)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/3149020208229.jpg)

The list of performers look pretty good to me - my curiosity is more than piqued. 8)

Q

Hurwitz gave it a very firm thumbs down, if that's any help to you.
http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=13480
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 21, 2011, 06:32:54 PM
Hurwitz gave it a very firm thumbs down, if that's any help to you.
http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=13480

Some people would consider his thumbs down as a sign of distinction.  :D I have not read his review, but I would bet the word "vibrato" appears there. Am I right?  :)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: kishnevi on August 21, 2011, 07:20:41 PM
Some people would consider his thumbs down as a sign of distinction.  :D I have not read his review, but I would bet the word "vibrato" appears there. Am I right?  :)

too bad this isn't Vegas.  You would win handsomely.

Quote
Most notable is the wretched string timbre, hideously ugly in the two slow movements, and once again completely unidiomatic in its lack of a warm, vocal, cantabile style. There is simply no excuse for it. It's not just a question of vibrato either--string players, particularly in ensemble, can sound lovely with very limited vibrato. These performers simply don't. It's a choice, and a bad one

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on August 21, 2011, 08:52:51 PM
Hurwitz gave it a very firm thumbs down, if that's any help to you.
http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=13480

Well, the samples I've listened to in the mean time sounded gourgeous, very pretty indeed. If they are anything to go by third recording will be an eyeopener. :)

Hurwitz is an idiot. He claims the music is written for piano because the publication of Beethoven's third piano concerto says "pianoforte". ???

Wait a minute - these pieces by Mendelssohn were published in 1822 and 1823. Bezuidenhout plays a copy after a Conrad Graf from 1824. What is suposed to be wrong in that picture? ::)

If I'm correct the terms "fortepiano" and "pianoforte" were in those days used interchangeably. Of course Hurwitz has a response to that, which is fully incomprehensible: Now, even if some folks still did use the term "fortepiano" in the 1820s (I wonder who?), it has a clear 21st century association with early music. A "clear 21st century association"?  :o

The rest of this "review" is basically: "I don't like the way this sound" What else is new....?  ;D

I think Hurwitz should stop reviewing period performances - he does obviously not know what he is talking about an hence the informational value is absolutely ZERO.

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: DavidW on August 22, 2011, 03:58:05 AM
When Hurwitz gives a PI recording a thumbs down it usually means that I should listen to it! :D

Jeff, didn't you know that Hurwitz is an idiot?  It's so well known that posting or referring to one of his reviews is a step away from trolling Newman style.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: DavidRoss on August 22, 2011, 04:46:55 PM
Hurwitz gave it a very firm thumbs down, if that's any help to you.
http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=13480
Since the Hurwitzer hates HIPPI music--the more so the better it's played--its damn near a sure thing that this recording is well worth a listen.

I see many others have noticed the same thing.

BTW, he does adjust his views to accommodate a general consensus when it develops.  I well remember him trashing Rachel Podger's Bach S&Ps...but recently noticed that after her lovely recordings were generally recognized as outstanding, he has given her recent recording of Bach concertos a "10/10" review.  What a pompous dork.  Sigh.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 30, 2011, 04:02:29 PM
Picked up out of the bargain bin yesterday:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YQN5QKBSL._SS500_.jpg)

Finally - a recording of Schubert's Arpeggione Sonata on arpeggione. :)

I look forward to your report, Q. I own one version played on arpeggione (Deletaille/Badura-Skoda, Fuga Libera), but your disc looks enticing.  :)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 30, 2011, 04:13:21 PM
I look forward to your report, Q. I own one version played on arpeggione (Deletaille/Badura-Skoda, Fuga Libera), but your disc looks enticing.  :)

I only have 2 myself, the one you mention and Klaus Storck (Arpeggione) & Alfons Kontarsky (Hammerflügel)  along with Hans-Martin Linde (Traversflöte) & Kontarsky playing the D 802 Trockne Blumen Variations. I really do like the sound of the real deal
Arpeggione, it doesn't sound like a cello!  :)

I would be interested to hear back about Q's also. Recordings are still thin on the ground. :)

8)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 30, 2011, 04:20:46 PM
I only have 2 myself, the one you mention and Klaus Storck (Arpeggione) & Alfons Kontarsky (Hammerflügel)  along with Hans-Martin Linde (Traversflöte) & Kontarsky playing the D 802 Trockne Blumen Variations.

This really looks intriguing: Alfons Kontarsky playing a pianoforte and without his brother Aloys! I don't know Storck, but Linde has faultless HIP credentials. 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 30, 2011, 04:27:52 PM
This really looks intriguing: Alfons Kontarsky playing a pianoforte and without his brother Aloys! I don't know Storck, but Linde has faultless HIP credentials.

Well, it is this one, not a new recording, but a great one anyway.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/SchubertArpeggioneTrockneBlumencover.jpg)

8)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 30, 2011, 04:34:00 PM
Toñito,
I don't know if this help you, maybe more than it helped me. All I got was the date, 1974... :-\

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Arpeggione-Sonatebacksmall.jpg)

8)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 30, 2011, 04:43:07 PM
Toñito,
I don't know if this help you, maybe more than it helped me. All I got was the date, 1974... :-\

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Arpeggione-Sonatebacksmall.jpg)

8)

No, really not; but I love those Japanese characters!  :)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on August 30, 2011, 08:14:49 PM
I only have 2 myself, the one you mention and Klaus Storck (Arpeggione) & Alfons Kontarsky (Hammerflügel)  along with Hans-Martin Linde (Traversflöte) & Kontarsky playing the D 802 Trockne Blumen Variations. I really do like the sound of the real deal
Arpeggione, it doesn't sound like a cello!  :)

This really looks intriguing: Alfons Kontarsky playing a pianoforte and without his brother Aloys! I don't know Storck, but Linde has faultless HIP credentials. 

Well, it is this one, not a new recording, but a great one anyway.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/SchubertArpeggioneTrockneBlumencover.jpg)

Wow, Gurn! :) That one does look intriguing! :) Nice programming & performers.

Another one that was on my list of possible candidates. It is combined with guitar pieces, like the one I got.



Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on September 06, 2011, 10:05:50 AM
Rather new. Has anyone heard it? :)



Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on September 06, 2011, 05:12:18 PM
Toñito,
I don't know if this help you, maybe more than it helped me. All I got was the date, 1974... :-\

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Arpeggione-Sonatebacksmall.jpg)

8)
The Katakana just repeats what is written in English (Franz Schubert, etc.)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on September 06, 2011, 05:15:16 PM
(http://img3.douban.com/lpic/s2955456.jpg)
I've got this one. Maybe I should investigate the other ones that have been suggested here.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 06, 2011, 06:50:28 PM
Rather new. Has anyone heard it? :)



Q

Niiiiice!

Talking about PI, I have wished for a long time a disc played by the fortepianist Federica Valli (La Gaia Scienza) performing some Brahms as a soloist. I'm sure she would do it superbly.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on September 08, 2011, 08:21:27 PM
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/5907690736286.jpg)

More new stuff - the Chopin Institute is following up with other composers on period instruments in the series "Music of Chopin’s time" (http://en.chopin.nifc.pl/institute/publications/musics4). (This disc at jpc (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Robert-Schumann-1810-1856-Symphonische-Et%FCden-op-13/hnum/1243539))

Period performances in Romantic piano music seem finally to gather some pace. :)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 09, 2011, 07:36:20 AM
Well, I just spent some time reviewing this thread and cannot believe I had not joined ages ago!  So, will now correct this oversight.  I already own a number of recordings mentioned here but certainly would like to supplement my more 'modern' ones w/ PI/HIP performances.

Most recently, I've been enjoying Peter Watchorn's Muscia Omnia website and collecting the offerings by the Atlantis Trio & Ensemble; so far, I own the ones shown below - Jaap Schroder & Penelope Crawford are excellent - this label & some of these discs were brought up a few years back here, but w/ little discussion - must return to that website and see what I may be missing! :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Zkp-8gBkL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519%2B2uumfPL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51iSzyGIdsL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WO-R%2B2rwL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on October 13, 2011, 10:11:16 PM
A new release spotted! :) (Challenge) jpc (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Robert-Schumann-1810-1856-Klaviertrios-Nr-1-3/hnum/4102951)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0608917252026.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on October 14, 2011, 07:00:16 AM
A new release spotted! :) (Challenge) jpc (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Robert-Schumann-1810-1856-Klaviertrios-Nr-1-3/hnum/4102951)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0608917252026.jpg)

Q
I'm curious how this compares to Scienza and Atlantis.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 14, 2011, 07:30:29 AM
I'm curious how this compares to Scienza and Atlantis.

I'm not totally sure, but I think La Gaia Scienza has not recorded those piano trios and the Atlantis Trio just one of them (Op. 63).
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on October 14, 2011, 03:54:28 PM
I'm not totally sure, but I think La Gaia Scienza has not recorded those piano trios and the Atlantis Trio just one of them (Op. 63).
Yes that's right. Looking through my recordings, what I have is: Op. 63 by Atlantis and both of these by The Benvenue Fortepiano Trio. Myself, I prefer the Atlantis version of Op. 63 to Huggett's.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on October 15, 2011, 07:32:42 AM
I'm thinking this might be my next purchase. It seems many people count 118 and 119 as among their favorite piano pieces. I don't know them as of yet.
(http://www.classicalarchives.com/images/coverart/9/5/2/0/044747285023_300.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Mn Dave on October 15, 2011, 07:40:13 AM
Hey, it's on Spotify. Thanks for mentioning it.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on October 15, 2011, 07:59:08 AM
Hey, it's on Spotify. Thanks for mentioning it.
My pleasure. I'll pick it up next week. If you listen before then, let us know what you think.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 15, 2011, 08:04:14 AM
My pleasure. I'll pick it up next week. If you listen before then, let us know what you think.

I have owned this disc for a long time, but, ashamedly, I must confess I don't recall anything about it.  :-[ 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on October 15, 2011, 08:18:29 AM
I have owned this disc for a long time, but, ashamedly, I must confess I don't recall anything about it.  :-[
I noticed 118 and 119 several times on the "favorite piano works" thread. I don't know...I go into baroque benders that I can't seem to get out of...I'm in one right now. I thought maybe a new romantic purchase would help the situation. Also, I haven't been able to appreciate/understand Brahms much. I picked this up a few months back and haven't been hooked:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61tFT2QG7pL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)   
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 15, 2011, 08:50:01 AM
I noticed 118 and 119 several times on the "favorite piano works" thread. I don't know...I go into baroque benders that I can't seem to get out of...I'm in one right now. I thought maybe a new romantic purchase would help the situation. Also, I haven't been able to appreciate/understand Brahms much. I picked this up a few months back and haven't been hooked:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61tFT2QG7pL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

I'm principally a listener of Baroque music too, but Brahms is one of my favorite composers.

But who knows, perhaps he is simply not your cup of tea. Anyway before you decide this, I will recommend to try again some discs, specially of chamber music (clarinet quintet, his sonatas for violin, clarinet and cello and so) because I don't know if the piano music is the best introduction to his work... and I would give another chance to that wonderful and exhilarating disc by La Gaia Scienza. Actually, I think I will hear it right now.  :)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on October 15, 2011, 08:57:35 AM
I'm principally a listener of Baroque music too, but Brahms is one of my favorite composers.

But who knows, perhaps he is simply not your cup of tea. Anyway before you decide this, I will recommend to try again some discs, specially of chamber music (clarinet quintet, his sonatas for violin, clarinet and cello and so) because I don't know if the piano music is the best introduction to his work... and I would give another chance to that wonderful and exhilarating disc by La Gaia Scienza. Actually, I think I will hear it right now.  :)
Thanks. I won't give up on it. I also have the Ilia Korol & Natalia Grigorieva recording of the violin sonatas and the Paul Komen & Pieter Wispelwey performance of the cello sonatas. Perhaps I need to invest some more time in these three recordings before moving on to the piano pieces.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 15, 2011, 09:30:50 AM
Thanks. I won't give up on it. I also have the Ilia Korol & Natalia Grigorieva recording of the violin sonatas and the Paul Komen & Pieter Wispelwey performance of the cello sonatas. Perhaps I need to invest some more time in these three recordings before moving on to the piano pieces.

Two beautiful discs, indeed.

Anyway, I will say this in low voice: I don't consider period instruments essential for Brahms and the majority of my favorite recordings are played on modern instruments. Additionally, recordings on period instruments of his music are quite scarce yet.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Geo Dude on October 22, 2011, 02:10:33 PM
Two beautiful discs, indeed.

Anyway, I will say this in low voice: I don't consider period instruments essential for Brahms and the majority of my favorite recordings are played on modern instruments. Additionally, recordings on period instruments of his music are quite scarce yet.

On that note, does anyone have a suggestion for an oh-so-rare period instrument recording of the string sextets?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 22, 2011, 04:19:48 PM
On that note, does anyone have a suggestion for an oh-so-rare period instrument recording of the string sextets?

I have this version:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41TRKWYC37L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Hausmusik is another Monica Huggett's ensemble.

It's a version carefully done, but I miss some extra dose of passion regarding the performance itself.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on October 22, 2011, 11:23:54 PM
On that note, does anyone have a suggestion for an oh-so-rare period instrument recording of the string sextets?

I agree with Antoine's comments on the Hausmusik recording. This will provide what you need:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61J82MDB6VL._SS500_.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Geo Dude on October 23, 2011, 10:28:03 AM
Thanks for the lead.  Any thoughts on the Brahms symphonies by Gardiner?  I've seen one glowing review by a person in this thread, but it gets mixed reviews at Amazon.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: kishnevi on October 23, 2011, 07:13:11 PM
Thanks for the lead.  Any thoughts on the Brahms symphonies by Gardiner?  I've seen one glowing review by a person in this thread, but it gets mixed reviews at Amazon.

I have all four.  I find them more valuable for the accompaning works (mostly choral), some by Brahms, some not, which Gardiner included as context for each symphony.  For the symphonies themselves, nothing good nor bad stands out in my memory.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on October 23, 2011, 11:53:02 PM
The HIPsters are taking over the board!

And why not? ;D

For Schubert I'm very fond of these two discs:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/8035233.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/8169071.jpg)


Prégardien/Staier is the perfect combo in Winterreise. Both are sweet-toned and impassioned.

I quite enjoy the Egmond/Crawford recordings of Die schöne Müllerin and Winterreise. Furthermore, I have all the Atlantis chamber recordings. These include recordings of works by Schubert, Schumann, Beethoven and Mendelssohn (piano trios, piano quartets and piano quintets). I know the Scienza recordings are good (of the Schumann Quartets) as are The Benvenue Fortepiano Trio recordings, but I gravitate more towards the Atlantis recordings (maybe I'm in the minority here).
I really love the double fortepiano versions of Schumann's pedal pieces by La Gaia Scienza, Federica Valli & Lorenzo Ghielmi: "Robert Schumann: Für Meine Clara."
Absolutely spellbinding!
I also think the Tobias Koch & Lisa Marie Landgraf album "Schumann: Complete Works for Violin and Piano" is great great great.
Liv Glaser & Ernst Simon Glaser have a nice recording of Schumann's cello works: "Schubert & Schumann" - it may be that the piano is period and the cello isn't?
Nicolas Deletaille (playing a real Arpeggione!) & Paul Badura-Skoda have a great recording: "Schubert: Sonate Für Arpeggione Und Klavier, D. 821 & Streichquintett, D. 956"
Finally, Staier's recording, "Schumann: A Tribute to Bach" is justifiably lauded. It's just wonderful!
I've been undecided on whether or not to purchase Ishay and Daskalakis's recordings of Faure's Violin Sonatas 1 and 2 (on period instruments). I don't know Faure well and I don't know these works. I'd love some advice about these compositions and/or the recording (Faure: L'Horizon Fantastique). 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Geo Dude on October 24, 2011, 08:43:00 AM
I have all four.  I find them more valuable for the accompaning works (mostly choral), some by Brahms, some not, which Gardiner included as context for each symphony.  For the symphonies themselves, nothing good nor bad stands out in my memory.

Thanks.  If this is the case, they're not on my high priority list.

Anyone else?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Leon on October 24, 2011, 11:40:53 AM
Thanks.  If this is the case, they're not on my high priority list.

Anyone else?

I am listening to #3 as I type this, and finding it very refreshing.  If you have other more "Romantic" recordings I'd say that the Gardiner set would make a very nice contrasting take.  IMO, Brahms can suffer from an approach which emphasizes the "gravitas", if you know what I mean, and his music benefits from the HIP thinning of the texture and in general, utilizing a less ponderous style.

Again, I would not recommend Gardiner as someone's first or only Brahms set, but as a pallette cleanser from the predominant modern orchestra sound it is a nice alternative.

 :)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on January 23, 2012, 01:25:35 PM
.



Another Trout on period instruments is out!  :) Is this the 4th one around?

Jan Vermeulen (fortepiano), Christine Busch (violin), France Springuel (cello), Paul de Clerck (viola) & Jan Buysschaert (double bass)

Q


Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: PaulSC on January 23, 2012, 01:48:37 PM
.



Another Trout on period instruments is out!  :) Is this the 4th one around?

Jan Vermeulen (fortepiano), Christine Busch (violin), France Springuel (cello), Paul de Clerck (viola) & Jan Buysschaert (double bass)

Q

Side question: is the Arpeggione sonata played on an arpeggione?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on January 23, 2012, 10:45:07 PM
Side question: is the Arpeggione sonata played on an arpeggione?

No, on a 5-string cello piccolo.

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: PaulSC on January 24, 2012, 08:49:32 PM
No, on a 5-string cello piccolo.

Q
Oh, that's an interesting choice! Have to hear this. Thanks for pointing it out…
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Opus106 on January 24, 2012, 09:13:30 PM
Oh, that's an interesting choice! Have to hear this. Thanks for pointing it out.

I think that's the HIPPI's usual choice of substitue for the arpeggione.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on January 25, 2012, 12:47:11 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51na5-SxVRL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
I guess I've posted this before. I love the sound of the arpeggione on this recording.
Is there another recording out there with an authentic arpeggione? 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: PaulSC on January 25, 2012, 08:54:27 AM
I think that's the HIPPI's usual choice of substitue for the arpeggione.
I didn't realize that. Is there anything truly historically-informed about this choice? I would have assumed the violoncello piccolo was seen as archaic, to the extent it was known at all, by the early nineteenth century.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Opus106 on January 25, 2012, 09:15:28 AM
I didn't realize that. Is there anything truly historically-informed about this choice? I would have assumed the violoncello piccolo was seen as archaic, to the extent it was known at all, by the early nineteenth century.

I'm afraid I don't have an answer to your question, but I'd like to learn more; and hopefully someone else will reply. :) The recording with Bylsma which I have features an instrument from c. 1700!
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Florestan on January 25, 2012, 11:00:25 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51na5-SxVRL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
I guess I've posted this before. I love the sound of the arpeggione on this recording.
Is there another recording out there with an authentic arpeggione?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PzFDUACsL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

2001: Ars Produktion (recorded on July 13 and 14, 2000)
Alfred Lessing (arpeggione) / Jozef de Beenhouwer (pianoforte)
On the same CD (arpeggione and guitar):
Vincenz Schuster: Drei Stücke (1825)
Anton Diabelli: Andante con moto A-Dur
Friedrich Burgmüller: Drei Nocturnes
(Harald Mohs, guitar)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on January 25, 2012, 03:28:48 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PzFDUACsL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

2001: Ars Produktion (recorded on July 13 and 14, 2000)
Alfred Lessing (arpeggione) / Jozef de Beenhouwer (pianoforte)
On the same CD (arpeggione and guitar):
Vincenz Schuster: Drei Stücke (1825)
Anton Diabelli: Andante con moto A-Dur
Friedrich Burgmüller: Drei Nocturnes
(Harald Mohs, guitar)
Looks interesting!
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on January 30, 2012, 05:06:43 AM
(http://www.concertorganists.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Latry-naive-V5278.jpg)
I've just downloaded this. Looks interesting!
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 30, 2012, 09:41:50 AM
Thread duty

This recommendation from Edward is la Tabasco vrai


Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: petrarch on January 30, 2012, 04:04:40 PM
There's also this, that a friend gave me as a birthday gift. Almost a decade later, I probably listened to it only once. Although I generally like period instruments, I much rather listen to the piano repertoire with a modern instrument.

Elly Ney on Beethoven's last grand piano (http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=39497&template=ware_detail_shop_en&_mid=39158&skip=)

(http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/media.php/74/elly_ney165.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Mandryka on March 11, 2012, 02:26:37 AM
IS Schubert a romantic? -- anyway if not move it.

The Fantasie here is very good. I have two tests for a Schubert fantasie. The first is that the opening theme is poignant without being sentimental. The second is that the fugue in the final movement is totally free and unchained. Bilson and Levin past the first test well and, in the fugue the textures are extremely clear and revealing. The other striking thing was the nobility and "depth" they found in the largo. This goes to the top of the pile -- with Osborne and Lewis.

(http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/imgs/s300x300/4534912.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Opus106 on March 11, 2012, 02:41:01 AM
IS Schubert a romantic?

Do you think otherwise? :)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Scion7 on March 11, 2012, 02:43:43 AM
Schubert is very much a Romantic.  Like Brahms, classic in "form" but the spirit is very different than Classicism.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on March 11, 2012, 08:16:52 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FYq9zgiSL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I wondering how essential the music on this CD is? Has anyone heard the Onslow Quintet? Or the Hummel?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Leo K. on March 11, 2012, 08:48:05 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FYq9zgiSL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I wondering how essential the music on this CD is? Has anyone heard the Onslow Quintet? Or the Hummel?

As a serious and avid collector of obscure composer's music, Onslow and Hummel are about as good as you can get, for me, their chamber works are definitely essential  8)

That is an excellant disk by the way, it's a great way to have an example of three different excellant obscure composers in one go.


Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on March 11, 2012, 09:00:19 AM
As a serious and avid collector of obscure composer's music, Onslow and Hummel are about as good as you can get, for me, their chamber works are definitely essential  8)

That is an excellant disk by the way, it's a great way to have an example of three different excellant obscure composers in one go.
Great! Thanks for the input. I guess I'll pull the trigger on this. A while back, I bought Atlantis's Schumann Quartet recording with a Thalberg piano quartet.
I never gave the Thalberg much of a listen. Do you put that work on par with this? I'm just wondering if I should also be giving Thalberg more of a chance as well.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Leo K. on March 11, 2012, 09:27:01 AM
Great! Thanks for the input. I guess I'll pull the trigger on this. A while back, I bought Atlantis's Schumann Quartet recording with a Thalberg piano quartet.
I never gave the Thalberg much of a listen. Do you put that work on par with this? I'm just wondering if I should also be giving Thalberg more of a chance as well.

I haven't heard Thalberg's chamber music yet, so thanks for the heads up on that recording! Based on what I've heard of his solo piano work, I would say yes, have a listen...at least to hear a contemporary of Schumann and Chopin. Very interesting stuff  8)


Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on March 11, 2012, 09:30:21 AM
I haven't heard Thalberg's chamber music yet, so thanks for the heads up on that recording! Based on what I've heard of his solo piano work, I would say yes, have a listen...at least to hear a contemporary of Schumann and Chopin. Very interesting stuff  8)
Yeah, it's on their last Schumann release. Well great. I'll look forward to the NFQ recording.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: kishnevi on March 11, 2012, 05:48:21 PM
As a serious and avid collector of obscure composer's music, Onslow and Hummel are about as good as you can get, for me, their chamber works are definitely essential  8)

That is an excellant disk by the way, it's a great way to have an example of three different excellant obscure composers in one go.

I'm not sure I'd call Hummel obscure.  But that CD is a very good one.

CPO has produced a series of Onslow chamber music, all of which I enjoy very much, and there is a CD of Onslow quartets on Naive by Quatour Diotoma, which is also excellent.    There's also two CDs of Onslow symphonies on CPO, if you want to explore further (although none of these recordings qualify for this thread, since they're all MI.)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on March 11, 2012, 07:00:34 PM
I'm not sure I'd call Hummel obscure.  But that CD is a very good one.

CPO has produced a series of Onslow chamber music, all of which I enjoy very much, and there is a CD of Onslow quartets on Naive by Quatour Diotoma, which is also excellent.    There's also two CDs of Onslow symphonies on CPO, if you want to explore further (although none of these recordings qualify for this thread, since they're all MI.)
Thanks.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Leo K. on March 12, 2012, 11:35:28 AM
I'm not sure I'd call Hummel obscure.

He isn't obscure to specialists of this period, but to the general public, I have a feeling he is  ;)

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: rickardg on March 12, 2012, 01:03:30 PM
He isn't obscure to specialists of this period, but to the general public, I have a feeling he is  ;)

When I was a kid Haydn and Hummel, as opposed to Beethoven and Brahms, were the two big composers, but I was biased---I played the trumpet... :-)

I've been mulling a disc with Hummels piano sonatas, Alexander-Max on Chandos is tempting, but the samples of Hough on Hyperion sound gorgeous, even though it's on a modern piano.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51UuVq4FMeL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5175a5kxsPL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Leo K. on March 12, 2012, 01:41:49 PM
When I was a kid Haydn and Hummel, as opposed to Beethoven and Brahms, were the two big composers, but I was biased---I played the trumpet... :-)

I've been mulling a disc with Hummels piano sonatas, Alexander-Max on Chandos is tempting, but the samples of Hough on Hyperion sound gorgeous, even though it's on a modern piano.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51UuVq4FMeL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5175a5kxsPL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I have the Stephen Hough recording, and it is excellant! I haven't got a fortepiano recording of Hummel's solo sonatas yet, but it's on my radar.


Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Florestan on March 13, 2012, 05:45:32 AM
Speaking of Hummel I can safely recommend this recording

(http://ecards.brilliantclassics.nl/operacollection/img/large/94043.jpg)

Mathilde von Guise

Kristine Gailite • Philippe Do • Pierre-Yves Pruvot • Hjördis Thébault
Choir Alea • Solamente Naturali
Conductor: Didier Talpain

Johann Nepomuk Hummel (1778-1837) was one of the greatest pianist composers of the early 19th century. Taught by Salieri, Albrechstberger and Mozart, he was a close friend of Beethoven from the late 1790s until the latter's death in 1827. Hummel replaced the elderly Haydn as Kappelmeister at Eisenstadt with Haydn's approval. His influence upon Schubert, Chopin and Liszt was profound, and his A minor and B minor piano concertos (1815/19) are fine examples of the early romantic concerto rivalled only by the masterworks of Beethoven. Today however, it is probably his early (1803) trumpet concerto that he is best known for. A pity, as he was a truly well rounded, sophisticated musician, who, at his best produced many fine works that are today beginning to re-appear in the repertoire. He composed 15 operas, and none have been recorded until this release of Mathilde von Guise. Dating from 1810, and revised in 1821.

Premiered in 1811 in Vienna the opera was met with great acclaim, and in 1821 Hummel revised it for a new production, providing a 'new' overture (the earlier version's overture is included at the end of CD2) which he had extracted from his ballet Sappho of Mitilene of 1812!. The work was performed in Weimar, Berlin and Riga, then fell from the repertoire until the performances that led to this recording in Laon, France in 2008.

Hummel's score is beautiful, and is a supreme example of post Mozartian grace, allied to the modern style of Cherubini, Weber and a hint of early Rossini. It is also possible to detect how a work such as Mathilde von Guise would have appealed to Mercadante and the young Verdi. The writing for the singers is demanding, and with the composer's gift for melody and orchestration this is an important operatic recording premier.

Further information:
- World premiere recording
- Comprehensive booklet note
- Period instrument performance
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on March 13, 2012, 12:59:50 PM
I forgot who brought up Hummel, but did anyone realize that he is not a Romantic but a composer of the Classical era? ::) Onslow is transitional, I guess.

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: kishnevi on March 13, 2012, 08:03:05 PM
Hummel's status brings up the question, of course, of how one actually delimits Classical v Romantic.  To me, Hummel is a transitional  figure, and Onslow part of the earlier Romantic era.   It's pertinent to bring up Schubert's dates here, since most people would think of him as being Romantic--although he was really of the generation behind Beethoven and Hummel,  he died only two years or so after Beethoven and almost a decade before Hummel, and Onslow was only a few years younger than Hummel, and died some fifteen or sixteen years after him, so he might well count as being one of Hummel's generation.

Of course Beethoven himself, I tend to think of as a transitional figure between High Classical and Early Romantic--but qualified by the fact that Beethoven was in many ways not really classifiable at all.

Edit to clarify the point:  perhaps it's more the individual composer's approach that is important, and not the dates--Hummel being more obviously Classical but with enough variation towards the Romantic to justify the tage of transitional, whereas Onslow is more obviously Romantic.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on March 13, 2012, 09:49:24 PM
Edit to clarify the point:  perhaps it's more the individual composer's approach that is important, and not the dates--Hummel being more obviously Classical but with enough variation towards the Romantic to justify the tage of transitional, whereas Onslow is more obviously Romantic.

That is my impression of those composers as well - Hummel a Classicist, Onslow early-Romantic. And I agree with your point that in the end the composer's development is decisive and dates are merely indicative. Beethoven started out as a Classicist, but ended his career in the Romantic idiom. IMO Schubert started out as a Romantic right from the start.

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on March 13, 2012, 10:48:03 PM
That is my impression of those composers as well - Hummel a Classicist, Onslow early-Romantic. And I agree with your point that in the end the composer's development is decisive and dates are merely indicative. Beethoven started out as a Classicist, but ended his career in the Romantic idiom. IMO Schubert started out as a Romantic right from the start.

Q
Yes I was almost going to ask whether or not I posted in the right place after I brought up Hummel. I brought him up in the context of the Nepomuk Fortepiano Quintet recordings, which contain Hummel, Onslow and Dussek. It was hard for me to know where to post. I also brought up Thalberg (on Atlantis's Schumann Quartet recording) as another lesser known composer, but he's unquestionably romantic. Anyway, I'm making my way through these composers but I keep going back to their more lauded contemporaries in an effort to evaluate what I'm listening to. So are all these lesser known composers roughly on par? Or do people here think one of them stands out as more interesting than the others? For that matter, how about Fanny's and Clara's Trios? I know these are somewhat subjective questions but I'm interested in people's opinions. I found myself enjoying Fanny's trio. And, after initially dismissing Thalberg, I find I'm able to enjoy it a bit more now.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: rickardg on March 14, 2012, 11:03:39 AM
Hummel being more obviously Classical but with enough variation towards the Romantic to justify the tage of transitional, whereas Onslow is more obviously Romantic.

These things can be debated endlessly, but this is sums up my vague idea of it. Hummel being transitional Classicist-Romantic and thus fair game in both classical and romantic threads :-)

BTW, from the booklet in the thoroughly off-topic Hough recording (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDA67390&vw=dc)

Quote
Among his friends and acquaintances were Beethoven (the two later fell out), Cramer, Dussek, Moscheles, Weber, Mendelssohn, Schumann and Chopin

Anyone friend with Mendelssohn, Schumann and Chopin is at least borderline in my book :-)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Bulldog on March 14, 2012, 02:33:46 PM
Yes I was almost going to ask whether or not I posted in the right place after I brought up Hummel. I brought him up in the context of the Nepomuk Fortepiano Quintet recordings, which contain Hummel, Onslow and Dussek. It was hard for me to know where to post. I also brought up Thalberg (on Atlantis's Schumann Quartet recording) as another lesser known composer, but he's unquestionably romantic. Anyway, I'm making my way through these composers but I keep going back to their more lauded contemporaries in an effort to evaluate what I'm listening to. So are all these lesser known composers roughly on par? Or do people here think one of them stands out as more interesting than the others?

They are on par concerning reputation, although I prefer Hummel as a melodist and think that his music flows more naturally.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Leo K. on March 18, 2012, 06:49:16 AM
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/489385.jpg)
Release Date: 03/23/2010
Label:  Brilliant Classics   Catalog #: 94033   Spars Code: n/a 
Composer:  Charles Valentin Alkan
Performer:  Alan Weiss/Stanley Hoogland

Number of Discs: 3
Recorded in: Stereo
Length: 2 Hours 19 Mins.




Last night I heard disk 3 of this amazing recording of Alkan piano works, played by Stanley Hoogland on a Pleyel fortepiano from 1858 (only featured on disk 3). The haunting, mysterious quality of the music took me by surprise, as the lower registers of the fortepiano sounded so dark and bleak.

INcredible.

 8)

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on April 20, 2012, 10:06:36 PM
A novelty: a Brahms piano concerto on period instruments!  :) The added review from all music reflects other comments I've seen: the abilities of the orchestra fall short.



Quote
Review by Mike D. Brownell

As much a symphony as it is a concerto, Brahms' First Piano Concerto suffered an understandable identity crisis early in its creation. The work began its existence as a sonata for two pianos, then a symphony, and finally in its present guise as a piano concerto. Not surprisingly, the concerto features a densely orchestrated, powerful accompaniment that can present formidable balance issues. To give the solo line the best possible chance of being heard over the orchestra, this MDG Live disc, featuring pianist Hardy Rittner, employs an 1854 Erard piano, an instrument with which Brahms would have been familiar and even preferred on some occasions for its power and clarity of tone. The orchestra, l'arte del mondo, also uses period instruments to give listeners the best possible idea of what a performance during Brahms' lifetime might have been like. The result is indeed remarkably clear and well-balanced. Rittner's nimble playing on the Erard piano is muscular yet sensitive, and produces a bright but pleasing tone across its range. Likewise, the orchestra's sound is rich and assertive without drowning out the piano. What falls a bit short is cohesiveness within the orchestra. During the many extensive orchestral tuttis, attacks between sections are not always precisely unison, and there's a tendency for the orchestra as a whole to drag. At a mere 50 minutes of music, this is a very lean disc that could certainly have given listeners more exposure to the Erard with some additional solo works.

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on April 20, 2012, 10:12:09 PM
Another new Romantic HIPie I spotted:  :)



Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on April 21, 2012, 03:28:37 AM
Another new Romantic HIPie I spotted:  :)



Q
This looks interesting. I want to check this out. I have the one by the Glasers - which I think uses a period piano and a modern cello.
I hadn't been able to find a fully HIP performance of these works. 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 17, 2012, 04:49:30 AM
Another new Romantic HIPie I spotted:  :)



Q

It looks very promising, indeed:

 http://www.youtube.com/v/4SUy-n0bvts

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on June 22, 2012, 01:53:10 AM
I find it curious that there seems to be many period performances of Schumann's first and third piano trios but none of the second. Why is this?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Sammy on June 22, 2012, 11:15:10 AM
I find it curious that there seems to be many period performances of Schumann's first and third piano trios but none of the second. Why is this?

Are you sure?  I don't recall many period recordings of any of the piano trios.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on June 22, 2012, 01:57:38 PM
Are you sure?  I don't recall many period recordings of any of the piano trios.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513pe5eJJzL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://artistxite.com/imgcache/album/001/164/001164432_full.jpg)
(http://c3.cduniverse.ws/MuzeAudioArt/Large/26/1963026.jpg)
I don't have the Voces Intimae. I wonder why number two is avoided. Is it inferior?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on September 21, 2012, 02:02:54 AM
(http://assets1.gcstatic.com/u/apps/asset_manager/uploaded/2012/25/dvorak-herbert-1340116967-old-article-0.png)
I don't have many Dvorak recordings. Here Mr. Braley used a period Steinway. This is my first contact with Dvorak's Bagatelles. So far I find them (scored for Two violins, cello and harmonium) to be a real unexpected joy.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Sammy on September 21, 2012, 07:07:11 AM
(http://assets1.gcstatic.com/u/apps/asset_manager/uploaded/2012/25/dvorak-herbert-1340116967-old-article-0.png)
I don't have many Dvorak recordings. Here Mr. Braley used a period Steinway. This is my first contact with Dvorak's Bagatelles. So far I find them (scored for Two violins, cello and harmonium) to be a real unexpected joy.

That's a very fine disc.  Lately, I've been loving Harmonia Mundi releases.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: DavidRoss on September 21, 2012, 08:24:01 AM
I've a question for the music historians on our site:

When did playing with constant vibrato become standard practice?

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: DavidRoss on September 21, 2012, 08:24:43 AM
Lately, I've been loving Harmonia Mundi releases.
Gives me the warm fuzzies all over!
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Opus106 on September 21, 2012, 08:33:24 AM
I've a question for the music historians on our site:

When did playing with constant vibrato become standard practice?

It's been a while since this thread (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?) topped the charts, so it's high time that it comes back up. 8)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Wakefield on September 23, 2012, 10:31:10 AM
This afternoon I recalled this excellent CD:

(http://www.divine-art.com/CD/graphics/athcd7.jpg)
Drei Klavierstücke, D. 946
Valses Nobles, D.969
Moments Musicaux, D. 780

http://www.divine-art.com/CD/athcd7info.htm

I think these words of Peter Katin (from the booklet) have some interest, as he was 65 years old when documented in 1995 his then recent attraction for period pianos:

Quote
One of the most interesting things I have done is to perform certain works, that I have previously associated with a modern piano, on an instrument originating from nearer the lifetime of the composer. Preparing the recording of five Clementi sonatas (ATH CD4) brought few surprises, simply because I had never performed any Clementi. The real surprise was in finding that what I thought of as not very effective when played on a modern grand, took on a totally different character when I selected them by playing through several on a Clementi square piano of 1832. Working on the Schubert Impromptus (ATH CD5) involved me in the business of forgetting that I had played them for years on a modern piano, because the phrasing, pedaling, and even to an extent the fingering, had to be re-thought if it was to be effective on a perio instrument. I also proved to me that the square piano is not an outmoded version of what we are used to these days; it is an instrument in its own right, not “developed” by anything modern, but replaced by the upright piano as we know it, mainly for the consideration of design, which made the extension of the basic six-octave square piano impractical. We must be grateful that there are restorers who can bring these instruments back to (as near as we can judge) their original sound.

The restorer of the instrument used in this recording was Andrew Lancaster, who also writes in the booklet:

Quote
The square piano used on this disc was made by the firm Clementi & Coo. C. 1832 and is a highly developed, sophisticated instrument of six octaves… The modern piano is very much a more standardized instrument. While there is some variation in tonal character between pianos such as Steinway, Bössendorfer and Bechstein, the difference is considerably less than that found between the “rival makers” of the late 18th and early 19th centuries.

 :)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on October 16, 2012, 01:26:26 PM
New! :)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0885150602553.jpg)

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Franz-Liszt-1811-1886-Prometheus/hnum/2782774

And what's even more interesting: this is already volume 5 !! :o

Information about the rest of the series HERE (http://www.wienerakademie.at/jart/prj3/wak/main.jart?rel=de&content-id=1275038541454&reserve-mode=active)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Brian on November 03, 2012, 12:14:21 PM
Ronald Brautigam brings us Mendelssohn's Songs Without Words on a McNulty replica of an 1830 Pleyel. Listen to clips from Volume 1 (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/BIS/BIS1982#listen) or gaze on the cover art:

(http://i.prs.to/t_200/bisbis1982.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on November 05, 2012, 03:59:53 AM
Ronald Brautigam brings us Mendelssohn's Songs Without Words on a McNulty replica of an 1830 Pleyel. Listen to clips from Volume 1 (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/BIS/BIS1982#listen) or gaze on the cover art:

(http://i.prs.to/t_200/bisbis1982.jpg)
Thanks. I think I will pre-order it.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on November 05, 2012, 10:08:36 AM
Ronald Brautigam brings us Mendelssohn's Songs Without Words on a McNulty replica of an 1830 Pleyel. Listen to clips from Volume 1 (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/BIS/BIS1982#listen) or gaze on the cover art:

(http://i.prs.to/t_200/bisbis1982.jpg)

I recently heard another HIP performance of Mendelssohn:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513-6hqa70L._SS500_.jpg)

Don't buy it, it is terrible  8): bad recording, ugly sounding fortepiano and rather uninspired playing.

But it did show me, however, the enormous potential of performing this repertoire on a period instrument,

So, I'm definitely going to check out the new Brautigam recording. :)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Brian on November 05, 2012, 12:53:58 PM
No fear here, Que. I'm on the last track now, and it's beautifully interpreted throughout, up to Brautigam's usual standards. The piano is one I find very, very appealing, too.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 05, 2012, 01:55:02 PM
I've a question for the music historians on our site:

When did playing with constant vibrato become standard practice?

Is it, or has it ever been, actually 'standard practice'?  I'm not taking the opposite here, I am genuinely curious. I've read Hurwitz's couple of essays, but he is so biased that he hears what he wants to hear. Can I take standard practice to mean that everyone does it? The orchestral players and the soloist.

I believe (from a logical standpoint rather than as a musician) that to some extent, the orchestral violins have always done it to some degree because for the entire section to play with perfect intonation at all times is... unlikely. And I think that soloists have always used it as a means of expression. However, and this is just my opinion, I don't believe that there was ever a time when no vibrato at all was used, neither do I believe that huge amounts of vibrato were used.

If anyone cares to refute this, by all means, I am interested as can be, and profess my ignorance beyond having read an essay or two (other than Hurwitz) about it. They may have been full of crap too.  :)

8)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 05, 2012, 01:56:11 PM
Ronald Brautigam brings us Mendelssohn's Songs Without Words on a McNulty replica of an 1830 Pleyel. Listen to clips from Volume 1 (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/BIS/BIS1982#listen) or gaze on the cover art:

(http://i.prs.to/t_200/bisbis1982.jpg)

Boy, I like that. Wonder how many disks will it ultimately take. :)

8)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on November 06, 2012, 05:48:11 AM
I thought I'd stick this up here and see if anyone had an opinion. I don't know this music but I have several of Koch's recordings.
(http://www.br.de/radio/br-klassik/themen/cd-tipps/cd-cover-august-klughardt-100~_v-image512_-6a0b0d9618fb94fd9ee05a84a1099a13ec9d3321.jpg?version=1348225748035)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on November 06, 2012, 05:55:54 AM
...And this, while I'm at it...just in case anyone is interested.
(http://www.classicalarchives.com/images/coverart/9/a/f/0/4260036252552_300.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Geo Dude on November 16, 2012, 05:11:55 PM
A novelty: a Brahms piano concerto on period instruments!  :) The added review from all music reflects other comments I've seen: the abilities of the orchestra fall short.



Q

Too bad about the orchestra, though I will of course have to hear it anyway at some point.

This disc, which I just picked up, is brilliant:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511rn-Nn-qL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Rittner doesn't have to worry about an orchestra that's not up to the task here... :D
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on November 18, 2012, 05:17:48 AM
My quest for HIP Dvorak has led me here:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/512Zo1PKcVL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Leo K. on January 06, 2013, 08:21:45 AM
Got some more Jan Vermeulen, Schumann and Weber. I haven't encountered Weber's piano sonatas before now, and Schumann on fortepiano is new to me, will listen to these soon:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51P%2Bckdw41L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

(http://p.playserver1.com/ProductImages/6/3/0/6/5/8/7/7856036_300x300_1.jpg)


 8)


Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Opus106 on January 15, 2013, 10:57:45 AM
Transitions: Dussek, Beethoven & Mendelssohn

Beethoven: Bagatelles (7), Op. 33; Piano Sonata No. 32 in C minor, Op. 111
Dussek, J L: Piano Sonata No. 24 Op. 61 in F sharp minor
Mendelssohn: Variations sérieuses in D minor Op. 54

Olga Pashchenko (pianoforte)



This first album of the Russian pianist, harpsichordist and organist Olga Pashchenko – student of Alexei Lubimov and Richard Egarr; prizewinner of several international music competitions (‘Schloss Kremsegg’ for fortepiano in 2011; ‘Hans von Bulow' for piano in 2012…) depicts the rebellious and yet very tender metamorphosis between two ‘states’ of art – Classical and Romantic. Dussek, Beethoven, and Mendelssohn stand at the crossroads of the two styles; demonstrating how the transformation to Romanticism was subtle and hidden in the smallest details of the well-composed, transparent architecture of the music of the Classical period.

The two original instruments (Conrad Graf 1826 & Donat Schoeffstoss 1812) chosen with care by Olga Pashchenko are in possession of a great clarity of sound, and uncover immense timbral possibilities, allowing one to play with the rhetoric as much as with the colours.


Fuga Libera
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on February 03, 2013, 05:59:16 AM
More new stuff - played on a Schantz! :o Which is IMO a BIG deal! :)



Not yet available on US Amazon, so the link is dead - for now.

http://www.amazon.de/Schubert-Die-Letzten-Jahre-Klavierwerke/dp/B009VA4H1I/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1359899923&sr=1-2

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Florestan on February 03, 2013, 08:21:01 AM
Got some more Jan Vermeulen, Schumann and Weber. I haven't encountered Weber's piano sonatas before now, and Schumann on fortepiano is new to me, will listen to these soon:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51P%2Bckdw41L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

(http://p.playserver1.com/ProductImages/6/3/0/6/5/8/7/7856036_300x300_1.jpg)

Did you have time to listen to these? I'm especially interested in the Weber set.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 03, 2013, 04:03:09 PM
Did you have time to listen to these? I'm especially interested in the Weber set.

Hi Andrei - I've owned that 2-CD set for CM von Weber's Piano Sonatas for a while performed by Jan Vermeulen on a Tröndlin (Leipzig) 1825 instrument (presume a restoration although not mentioned in the liner notes), but was curious so found some information (quoted below) & a pic of one of his 1830 pianos - now I've not listened to this set in a while but just put on the first disc (and have NO comparative experience in these works); the right hand is quite melodious w/ good contrast w/ the bass (almost orchestral - might be expected w/ this composer); the piano sound is quite full, i.e. not like a modern instrument but getting close - enjoying!

Concerning reviews, a rather positive one by a good reviewer (IMO) on Amazon HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Piano-Sonatas-Weber/dp/B0006B969Y/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1359934589&sr=1-1&keywords=weber+piano+sonatas+vermeulen), and a more negative review on MusicWeb HERE (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/Feb05/weber_vermeulen.htm) by someone who may not like the fortepiano, so maybe a 'red flag' issue?  Now after reading this post & the reviews, and if you are still interested, the CD set may be OOP - now selling on Amazon for $65 (I'm sure that I did not pay much over $10 when purchased) - Dave :)

Quote
Tröndlin, 1830, Leipzig.  Johann Nepomuk Tröndlin (1790-1862) studied instrument making in southern Germany and Vienna. From 1821-1824 Tröndlin ran the instrument manufacture division of Breitkopf & Härtel in Leipzig. Subsequently he established his own business, which was sold in 1855. Tröndlin's instruments were praised by Clara Schumann and Felix Mendelssohn Bartholdy.

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/Feb05/Weber_piano_Brilliant.jpg)  (http://www.frederickcollection.org/Trondlin_001.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Florestan on February 04, 2013, 01:48:15 AM
Thanks, Dave.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Leo K. on February 09, 2013, 07:56:10 AM
Did you have time to listen to these? I'm especially interested in the Weber set.

Actually not yet! They are on my pile ready to go, will try to listen soon  ;)

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on March 11, 2013, 07:52:07 AM
I find it curious that there seems to be many period performances of Schumann's first and third piano trios but none of the second. Why is this?
(http://cdn.7static.com/static/img/sleeveart/00/020/259/0002025952_500.jpg)
Finally!
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Leo K. on March 19, 2013, 12:51:46 PM
I've never listened to HIP Brahms yet, but the La Gaia Scienza recording of Brahms is a complete revelation!
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Brian on March 28, 2013, 06:42:49 AM
(http://www.msrcd.com/cdcovers/cd414.jpg)

BRAHMS: LATE PIANO WORKS
The Composer's Piano
Brahms: Opp.116-119

GWENDOLYN MOK, piano
1868 Erard Grand Piano
1871 Streicher Grand Piano

http://www.msrcd.com/catalog/cd/MS1420
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on May 10, 2013, 05:57:53 AM
Transitions: Dussek, Beethoven & Mendelssohn

Beethoven: Bagatelles (7), Op. 33; Piano Sonata No. 32 in C minor, Op. 111
Dussek, J L: Piano Sonata No. 24 Op. 61 in F sharp minor
Mendelssohn: Variations sérieuses in D minor Op. 54

Olga Pashchenko (pianoforte)


Thanks for the posting on this one. I just downloaded this. So far I'm loving it.   

This first album of the Russian pianist, harpsichordist and organist Olga Pashchenko – student of Alexei Lubimov and Richard Egarr; prizewinner of several international music competitions (‘Schloss Kremsegg’ for fortepiano in 2011; ‘Hans von Bulow' for piano in 2012…) depicts the rebellious and yet very tender metamorphosis between two ‘states’ of art – Classical and Romantic. Dussek, Beethoven, and Mendelssohn stand at the crossroads of the two styles; demonstrating how the transformation to Romanticism was subtle and hidden in the smallest details of the well-composed, transparent architecture of the music of the Classical period.

The two original instruments (Conrad Graf 1826 & Donat Schoeffstoss 1812) chosen with care by Olga Pashchenko are in possession of a great clarity of sound, and uncover immense timbral possibilities, allowing one to play with the rhetoric as much as with the colours.


Fuga Libera
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Geo Dude on May 13, 2013, 06:23:14 AM
I realize this was discussed a while back, but I'm curious to see what thoughts on it the one or two people who own it have now that the dust has settled. :)



Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Parsifal on May 13, 2013, 07:48:13 AM
I realize this was discussed a while back, but I'm curious to see what thoughts on it the one or two people who own it have now that the dust has settled. :)



Brahms on fortepiano?  Why not on harpsichord?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Mandryka on May 13, 2013, 09:03:32 AM
What does it mean to give a period performance of romantic music, beyond a PI performance. Does it mean that the music should be played romantically?

Take for example, Gaia Scienza's recording of Schumann's six canonic etudes op 56. What is striking is that Federica Valli  doesn't really try to add expression. I suspect that he thinks  that the music is expressive enough in itself, and that there's no need to add any feeling by using rubato, agogics, striking dynamic variation, strong colouration etc.

Quite a contrast that to for example, Le Sage, who plays a transcription on a modern piano, or to Martin Schneding who uses a pedalflügel, or from Vernet who uses a 19th century French organ. These guys all know that Schumann wrote these etudes as a sort of response to his study of Bach, of course. Not that that proves anything about how it should be played.

Of all these I expect that it's the Gaia Scienza crew who are most concerned about authenticity. But I could be wrong about that. They allowed Uri Caine to make some contributions to their performance of the piano quartet.


(http://jazzsound.pl/bilder/WW9101132_La-Gaia-Scienza_Robert-Schumann.jpg)



Oh by the way, does Franz Vorraber play this music? I just can't find it if he does.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: kishnevi on May 13, 2013, 09:14:40 AM
What does it mean to give a period performance of romantic music, beyond a PI performance. Does it mean that the music should be played romantically?

Take for example, Gaia Scienza's recording of Schumann's six canonic etudes op 56. What is striking is that Federica Valli  doesn't really try to add expression. I suspect that he thinks  that the music is expressive enough in itself, and that there's no need to add any feeling by using rubato, agogics, striking dynamic variation, strong colouration etc.


I suppose the keynote of authenticity would be how the composers themselves performed.  Has anyone ever actually studied the evidence, if there is any, of how Schumann (or another composer) used, or did not use, rubato, etc.?   For Brahms and other composers who lived to near the end of the 19th century,  there's also the approach of any recorded performances by their students or by musicians who worked directly with them--although of course anything through that filter could only be used with caution.
Title: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Geo Dude on May 13, 2013, 10:25:43 AM
I suppose the keynote of authenticity would be how the composers themselves performed.  Has anyone ever actually studied the evidence, if there is any, of how Schumann (or another composer) used, or did not use, rubato, etc.?   For Brahms and other composers who lived to near the end of the 19th century,  there's also the approach of any recorded performances by their students or by musicians who worked directly with them--although of course anything through that filter could only be used with caution.


I don't know whether HIP musicians use this information or not, although I hope they do, but a biography of Brahms that I've read gives a wealth of information on how his playing style was described by listeners, the types of pianos he preferred to play and instructions he and Joachim gave to musicians on how to play his music.  (As an example, Joachim sent a letter to an orchestra stating that Brahms' music should be played with little vibrato, which should be used for emotional emphasis at certain points.)

In short, there is plenty of information out there. :)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Wakefield on May 13, 2013, 10:58:54 AM
The indication of fortepiano may be a bit confusing since the instrument used was a Streicher Grand.  I am listening right now and the  sound of the recording is very good.  The playing is good too.

These Streicher pianos have a very interesting history. Nannette Streicher (née Stein) was daughter of Johann Andreas Stein and her factory, run by family members, endured until  the end of the 19th Century.  :)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Parsifal on May 13, 2013, 11:04:37 AM
I suppose the keynote of authenticity would be how the composers themselves performed.  Has anyone ever actually studied the evidence, if there is any, of how Schumann (or another composer) used, or did not use, rubato, etc.?   For Brahms and other composers who lived to near the end of the 19th century,  there's also the approach of any recorded performances by their students or by musicians who worked directly with them--although of course anything through that filter could only be used with caution.

I don't imagine that performers of the 19th century all performed music the same way, any more than they do today. 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: kishnevi on May 13, 2013, 04:03:38 PM
I don't imagine that performers of the 19th century all performed music the same way, any more than they do today.

Nor did Baroque performers, which doesn't prevent us from having HIP performances of Baroque works, and arguments about how they should be performed  :P

But if we know that (I'm being hypothetical here) Schumann played with a great deal of rubato, or expressed preferences for utilizing rubato, then we'd have some idea of whether or not he envisioned his own compositions being played with a great deal of rubato.  It doesn't give us information on standard 19th century performance practice, at least not directly:  but it would help form an idea of how Schumann intended his own works to be performed.

Or not so hypothetical--the letter GeoDude refers to from Joachim regarding orchestral vibrato in Brahms;  that's rather clear evidence of how Brahms wanted vibrato used for his own compositions, and perhaps (depending on the letter's text, which obviously I don't have in front of me) evidence of how vibrato was used in orchestral playing in that era. 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on May 14, 2013, 03:53:49 AM
What does it mean to give a period performance of romantic music, beyond a PI performance. Does it mean that the music should be played romantically?

Take for example, Gaia Scienza's recording of Schumann's six canonic etudes op 56. What is striking is that Federica Valli  doesn't really try to add expression. I suspect that he thinks  that the music is expressive enough in itself, and that there's no need to add any feeling by using rubato, agogics, striking dynamic variation, strong colouration etc.

Quite a contrast that to for example, Le Sage, who plays a transcription on a modern piano, or to Martin Schneding who uses a pedalflügel, or from Vernet who uses a 19th century French organ. These guys all know that Schumann wrote these etudes as a sort of response to his study of Bach, of course. Not that that proves anything about how it should be played.

Of all these I expect that it's the Gaia Scienza crew who are most concerned about authenticity. But I could be wrong about that. They allowed Uri Caine to make some contributions to their performance of the piano quartet.


(http://jazzsound.pl/bilder/WW9101132_La-Gaia-Scienza_Robert-Schumann.jpg)



Oh by the way, does Franz Vorraber play this music? I just can't find it if he does.
This is a really interesting post - and informative for me. I look forward to replies. I'm really wowed by the sound of the instruments Valli and Ghielmi play and I really love that recording. Does it restrict the artists' freedom that they are two playing together? Or is that not a consideration? I mean is it purely their choice? It is two pianos isn't it? So, do you enjoy it less then the Schmeding? Or just enjoy them differently? Do you think Valli/Ghielmi manage to do something interesting without the rubato and agogics? What does colouration refer to, (if that isn't too silly a question)? I can't explain why I don't find it boring. Maybe it's just the sonics of the instruments I like. I must admit though, when it comes to the quintet, I'm much more drawn to Atlantis . 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on May 14, 2013, 04:08:15 AM
Any other Schumann recommendations on organ?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Pat B on May 14, 2013, 11:34:01 AM
I don't imagine that performers of the 19th century all performed music the same way, any more than they do today.

It's very tempting to use the HIP label to reflect one's personal preferences. So someone who prefers, say, "rhythmic flexibility," will either say that HIP is about rhythmic flexibility and therefore he likes HIP, or will say that HIP lacks rhythmic flexibility and therefore he dislikes HIP. There has never been a consensus on steady vs. flexible in the recorded age, and I doubt there was a consensus before that.

I have been guilty of that myself regarding vibrato. The Joachim letter (and the L.Mozart letter discussed elsewhere) clearly indicate that performers of the time had various approaches. The difference on vibrato is that by the mid-20th century, string players were using it nearly uniformly and nearly constantly. So perhaps HIP is, in some sense, about giving performers MORE freedom than they had in conventional practice.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Geo Dude on May 14, 2013, 12:45:13 PM
The Joachim letter (and the L.Mozart letter discussed elsewhere) clearly indicate that performers of the time had various approaches.

Agreed.  There would be no need to send a letter explaining the type of playing they wanted with details on use of vibrato if playing with minimal vibrato was standard procedure.  Another story from the biography comes to mind that helps demonstrate the same point.  Brahms was going to conduct one of his symphonies with a large orchestra and sent some of the string players back stage on the grounds that an orchestra that large was unnecessary.  On the one hand that shoots down the argument that certain individuals (who happen to write snarky reviews at Amazon ;)) make that Brahms only wrote for a (relatively) small string section because that was all he had available to him at the time; on the other hand it shows that that orchestra, at least, took it for granted that a large string section was preferred.

For anyone interested, Here's the biography. (http://www.amazon.com/Johannes-Brahms-Biography-Jan-Swafford/dp/0679422617/ref=tmm_hrd_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1368567716&sr=8-1)

Quote
The difference on vibrato is that by the mid-20th century, string players were using it nearly uniformly and nearly constantly. So perhaps HIP is, in some sense, about giving performers MORE freedom than they had in conventional practice.

Unfortunately, in some places (and on some recordings) it is still standard practice to use vibrato constantly no matter what work you're playing... ::)  Okay, sorry, bypassing my bias I think the idea of it establishing freedom for performers (contrary to what is commonly argued by those who don't like the movement) is an excellent point.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 14, 2013, 04:51:16 PM
I have a very hard time comparing anything that was relevant to L. Mozart with anything that was relevant to Joachim. The entire art of violin playing was so drastically different from one's era to the others that comparisons are doomed to failure.

In mid-18th century, vibrato was written to be minimal, and it likely was, at least in some places. But even though it was considered to be an ornament, that is not the same thing as saying that it didn't exist outside of that situation. It is nearly impossible to conceive a section of violins playing with perfect intonation if they don't use at least a minimal vibrato. What would be far more important is bowing. One of the major orchestral innovations (often overlooked) of the Mannheim orchestra, and subsequent others, is having all the violinists bowing the same way. With so many different 'schools', a few in every major musical center, violinists would come together and simply not be able to play as a unit. So a small amount of vibrato and coordinated bowing made a huge difference in effect of the orchestral violin sections.

Another part of this discussion which I seldom see addressed is that the constraints on orchestral players and those on soloists were entirely different. Where a soloist could lean heavily on vibrato (whether it was tasteful or not) to assist his own emotional efforts and intonational issues, orchestral violins couldn't do that without wrecking the entire result. So to clarify the fact that it is soloists who had to be very conscious of this is, I think, important to the discussion.

In the 19th century, the art of playing the violin was an entirely different animal. Bowing styles were codified, up-bow, down-bow etc. were very closely defined and demanded of the players. Also, the use of the Tourte bow by nearly everyone made a large difference in how the orchestral violins sounded. In large part, this was linked to the growth of the orchestra in general. Growth was necessary in order to accommodate the larger venues, but it couldn't happen until the sections could play as a unit. When it got to the point where the first violins alone were more numerous than the entire orchestra that Haydn or Mozart had to work with, how could they play otherwise than with a vibrato that allowed them to stay in tune with each other? There is simply no alternative way to achieve pitch unless each and every player is dead solid perfect. So when Joachim is talking about Brahms' desire to have greater clarity of tone, how else could that be gained except by reducing the number of players? And with reduced players, it follows that reduced vibrato would be needed in order to maintain pitch. QED.   :)

That's my opinion, I may be wrong.

8)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Pat B on May 14, 2013, 08:14:34 PM
Sure, there were lots of changes in violin playing between their respective times, but from what I have read, L.Mozart and Joachim (among others, including Spohr, who was about halfway between them chronologically) had very similar views on vibrato. They advocated ornamental (non-constant) vibrato generally. For all of them it seems to be an issue of style -- vibrato as a means of emphasis -- not of ensemble intonation.

I have no reason to assume that Joachim's dislike of constant vibrato was inversely proportional to ensemble size.

As for unison bowing, I remember hearing that was Corelli's idea, though google doesn't show any support for that outside of an amazon review (and we all know how reliable those are :laugh: ). The internet seems to think it started with Lully.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 15, 2013, 03:41:56 AM
Sure, there were lots of changes in violin playing between their respective times, but from what I have read, L.Mozart and Joachim (among others, including Spohr, who was about halfway between them chronologically) had very similar views on vibrato. They advocated ornamental (non-constant) vibrato generally. For all of them it seems to be an issue of style -- vibrato as a means of emphasis -- not of ensemble intonation.

Well, it is not that difficult to attribute something to a philosophical belief; writers do it all the time. However, as a practical reality, the larger the ensemble, the greater the necessity for maintaining uniformity throughout the group. Homogeneity in sound wasn't just some random ideal that the Romantics pursued, it was a practical necessity brought about by the much larger performance venues --> larger ensembles to fill them with sound. In any case, what you advocate as an ideal and what you can pull off in reality are two far different things. Also, many contemporary violinists, famous ones with a huge following and praised by all, such as Locatelli, leaned heavily on vibrato with no one saying nay. So what I am saying, for 18th century fiddling at the very least, is that the concept of playing without vibrato is grossly overexaggerated in the modern day.

Quote
I have no reason to assume that Joachim's dislike of constant vibrato was inversely proportional to ensemble size.

I'm not saying it was. I'm saying that the larger the string section, the greater the necessity of using increased vibrato in the strings in order to maintain ensemble. It's simple physics, and may very well have nothing to do with Joachim's personal philosophy beyond being something that was out of his control, thus being a source of irritation. :)

Quote
As for unison bowing, I remember hearing that was Corelli's idea, though google doesn't show any support for that outside of an amazon review (and we all know how reliable those are :laugh: ). The internet seems to think it started with Lully.

I'm sure it was the simultaneous idea of many! But Stamitz actually accomplished it in Mannheim, which was part of the source of their outstanding reputation.

This book;



and a couple of essays that he had in Early Music are invaluable sources of information on this topic. He doesn't appear to have an ax to grind beyond when people claim to be, for example, bowing in an 18th century style when in reality they aren't even close. I suppose if I had dedicated my life to studying such things, I would be irked too. :)

8)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Florestan on May 15, 2013, 04:02:45 AM
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.

You may be, but you usually aren't.  :D
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 15, 2013, 04:25:04 AM
At the very least, his opinion is apt to be informed.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Pat B on May 15, 2013, 04:48:29 AM
So what I am saying, for 18th century fiddling at the very least, is that the concept of playing without vibrato is grossly overexaggerated in the modern day.

Right, and that was pretty much my original point ("performers of the time had various approaches") -- admittedly a recent realization for me. I think that's reflected in the current HIP movement, which is really a good thing even though I have a preference for non-constant.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 15, 2013, 04:55:18 AM
Right, and that was pretty much my original point ("performers of the time had various approaches") -- admittedly a recent realization for me. I think that's reflected in the current HIP movement, which is really a good thing even though I have a preference for non-constant.

Oh, so do I. There is a mile of room between non-constant vibrato and vibrato-less playing. On a scale of 1 to 10, I prefer a 3.   :)

8)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Opus106 on May 15, 2013, 05:33:46 AM
it was a practical necessity brought about by the much larger performance venues --> larger ensembles to fill them with sound.
8)
(emphasis mine)

Going on a tangent here, but shouldn't it be the other way 'round? :-\ (Compositions, especially orchestral, demanded larger forces than what used to be the norm, and that in turn led to larger concert halls, no?)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 15, 2013, 05:59:39 AM
(emphasis mine)

Going on a tangent here, but shouldn't it be the other way 'round? :-\ (Compositions, especially orchestral, demanded larger forces than what used to be the norm, and that in turn led to larger concert halls, no?)

What came first, the chicken or the egg? Were they both driven by composers' enormous egos?  :D  Actually, I would have drawn it circular if I had the character set available to do that;

venue size -> orchestra size -> composer/music ideas -> technical advancements in instruments -> venue size -> orchestra size -> composer/music ideas -> technical advancements in instruments -> etc...

Hard to know for sure, even in our own time, what the driver is. :)

8)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 15, 2013, 06:03:14 AM
Almost leads a body down the primrose path to conspiracy theorizing . . . .
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Opus106 on May 15, 2013, 06:15:14 AM
What came first, the chicken or the egg?

The egg, surely. ;D ;)

Quote
Were they both driven by composers' enormous egos?  :D  Actually, I would have drawn it circular if I had the character set available to do that;

Unicode: U+2940 :)

Quote
venue size -> orchestra size -> composer/music ideas -> technical advancements in instruments -> venue size -> orchestra size -> composer/music ideas -> technical advancements in instruments -> etc...
8)

Yeah, I sort of had that in mind too; things going hand-in-hand (and occasionally out of one).

Appreciate the clarification. :)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Pat B on May 19, 2013, 01:49:25 PM
If so, I would be interested anyway, but I haven't found a problem getting good versions (I also have Jaap Schröder/ Christopher Hogwood doing the 4). It is the Rondo brillant and the Fantasy in C that are killers. AFAIK, the Steck/Hill is the only choice for those. I like them both better than the sonatas, oddly enough, so their scarcity on PI is disappointing. :)

Two years after you posted this (in a different thread but I thought this one was more appropriate), I ran across another recording, and guess who's on violin?

Vera Beths! Stanley Hoogland is the fortepianist.

I have only found one source (link (http://www.grooves-inc.com/beths-vera-hoogland-stanley-rondo-brillant-895-sonate-574-fantasie-934-arte-dell-arco-cd-album-pZZa1-688188741.html) -- price includes shipping). It's somewhat less pricey than the OOP Steck is now. Since I had just commented that I wanted more Beths recordings and I don't have the Steck disc, I went for it, and it arrived yesterday.

The release date says 2010, but it turns out to be a previously unreleased 1982 (analog) recording. That was a bit disappointing to me, only because I had hoped she was still playing and recording. This must be one of the earliest PI recordings of 19th-century music. Vibrato is more prevalent than in her later recordings but still tasteful. The Rondo and Fantasy give her some chances to show off her chops, which are impressive. Apparently even the pros consider the Fantasy fiendishly difficult to pull off, both technically and stylistically. It's certainly way beyond anything I ever played. She plays it (and the others) with great dynamics and her characteristic exuberance.

Hoogland plays a Weiss from 1842. I don't know enough about fortepiano to comment on his playing or the instrument.

I've listened to it twice already and am very happy somebody unearthed the tapes.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 19, 2013, 03:34:32 PM
Two years after you posted this (in a different thread but I thought this one was more appropriate), I ran across another recording, and guess who's on violin?

Vera Beths! Stanley Hoogland is the fortepianist.

I have only found one source (link (http://www.grooves-inc.com/beths-vera-hoogland-stanley-rondo-brillant-895-sonate-574-fantasie-934-arte-dell-arco-cd-album-pZZa1-688188741.html) -- price includes shipping). It's somewhat less pricey than the OOP Steck is now. Since I had just commented that I wanted more Beths recordings and I don't have the Steck disc, I went for it, and it arrived yesterday.

The release date says 2010, but it turns out to be a previously unreleased 1982 (analog) recording. That was a bit disappointing to me, only because I had hoped she was still playing and recording. This must be one of the earliest PI recordings of 19th-century music. Vibrato is more prevalent than in her later recordings but still tasteful. The Rondo and Fantasy give her some chances to show off her chops, which are impressive. Apparently even the pros consider the Fantasy fiendishly difficult to pull off, both technically and stylistically. It's certainly way beyond anything I ever played. She plays it (and the others) with great dynamics and her characteristic exuberance.

Hoogland plays a Weiss from 1842. I don't know enough about fortepiano to comment on his playing or the instrument.

I've listened to it twice already and am very happy somebody unearthed the tapes.

Very cool, Pat. I had never seen another, not even an OOP!  I like Beths a lot, I think she is very underrated when it comes to being the fiddling end of L'Archibudelli. Bylsma deserves all the praise he gets (again, not enough), but part of that praise should be for his good taste in wedding his fiddler.   :D

8)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on May 22, 2013, 05:07:15 AM
(http://www.classicalarchives.com/images/coverart/9/2/b/9/822186002070_300.jpg)
I wonder if anyone here has checked this out. Bertrand Chamayou plays an 1837 Erard piano on Liszt's
piano concerto no. 1.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on May 23, 2013, 03:48:10 AM
What does it mean to give a period performance of romantic music, beyond a PI performance. Does it mean that the music should be played romantically?

Take for example, Gaia Scienza's recording of Schumann's six canonic etudes op 56. What is striking is that Federica Valli  doesn't really try to add expression. I suspect that he thinks  that the music is expressive enough in itself, and that there's no need to add any feeling by using rubato, agogics, striking dynamic variation, strong colouration etc.

Quite a contrast that to for example, Le Sage, who plays a transcription on a modern piano, or to Martin Schneding who uses a pedalflügel, or from Vernet who uses a 19th century French organ. These guys all know that Schumann wrote these etudes as a sort of response to his study of Bach, of course. Not that that proves anything about how it should be played.

Of all these I expect that it's the Gaia Scienza crew who are most concerned about authenticity. But I could be wrong about that. They allowed Uri Caine to make some contributions to their performance of the piano quartet.





Oh by the way, does Franz Vorraber play this music? I just can't find it if he does.
I'm not sure this is the right place for this as I'm not sure this is actually a period instrument. I'm not sure what it is. But I do intend this as a reply to the discussion of Schumann's pedal music. I wonder if anyone has considered this recording:
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_250/MI0003/279/MI0003279075.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
His name is Mirco Bruson.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on May 23, 2013, 03:53:09 AM
Here's another more on point:
(http://cdn.7static.com/static/img/sleeveart/00/019/605/0001960536_500.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Pat B on May 23, 2013, 07:47:13 AM
Very cool, Pat. I had never seen another, not even an OOP!  I like Beths a lot, I think she is very underrated when it comes to being the fiddling end of L'Archibudelli. Bylsma deserves all the praise he gets (again, not enough), but part of that praise should be for his good taste in wedding his fiddler.   :D

I know you're not as wildly enthusiastic about her Beethoven concerto as I am. IMO she and Bylsma are both fantastic musicians in their own rights. Of course Archibudelli was (is?) quite a team. I like Immerseel a lot too, though I have less experience in keyboard listening.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Brian on May 27, 2013, 05:21:10 PM
Really enjoying this two-fer of all the Mendelssohns' piano trios on period instruments.

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze2/large/922360.jpg)

Four different pianos are used, from about 1805-1855. So far my only quibble with the performances is a bit of relaxation in the first movement of Piano Trio No. 2, but otherwise, having a lot of fun listening.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Brian on July 13, 2013, 06:48:46 AM
(http://ecstatic.textalk.se/shop/thumbnails/shop/17115/art15/h2814/4762814-origpic-5ed9cf.jpg_0_0_100_100_250_250_0.jpg)

HIP Hungarian Rhapsodies for orchestra!

The performances are on the slow side (10 minutes slower than Ivan Fischer, overall), but except for a somewhat soggy No. 4, they're still very enjoyable and the period instruments add a lot of color to the already colorful scores. Some of the woodwind instruments were used in orchestras conducted by Liszt himself. On my first listen, I had to stop after No. 3 and go meet a friend at a bar, and was kind of annoyed at not being able to hear the rest right away!
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Geo Dude on July 14, 2013, 06:02:18 AM
Now...where can we find this thing? :P
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Brian on July 14, 2013, 06:28:05 AM
Hah, oops! I downloaded it from eClassical (FLAC), and it was released on JPC a few weeks ago. That suggests it should be out worldwide later this month, maybe next. I'm not sure who does USA distribution of physical CPO CDs...
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: kishnevi on July 14, 2013, 06:39:37 AM
(http://ecstatic.textalk.se/shop/thumbnails/shop/17115/art15/h2814/4762814-origpic-5ed9cf.jpg_0_0_100_100_250_250_0.jpg)

HIP Hungarian Rhapsodies for orchestra!

The performances are on the slow side (10 minutes slower than Ivan Fischer, overall), but except for a somewhat soggy No. 4, they're still very enjoyable and the period instruments add a lot of color to the already colorful scores. Some of the woodwind instruments were used in orchestras conducted by Liszt himself. On my first listen, I had to stop after No. 3 and go meet a friend at a bar, and was kind of annoyed at not being able to hear the rest right away!

Anything that's good enough to make meeting a friend at a bar into an annoyance must be worthwhile...
And I'm probably going to be doing an order from JPC in a few days, too....
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 14, 2013, 07:13:37 AM
(http://ecstatic.textalk.se/shop/thumbnails/shop/17115/art15/h2814/4762814-origpic-5ed9cf.jpg_0_0_100_100_250_250_0.jpg)

HIP Hungarian Rhapsodies for orchestra!

The performances are on the slow side (10 minutes slower than Ivan Fischer, overall), but except for a somewhat soggy No. 4, they're still very enjoyable and the period instruments add a lot of color to the already colorful scores. Some of the woodwind instruments were used in orchestras conducted by Liszt himself. On my first listen, I had to stop after No. 3 and go meet a friend at a bar, and was kind of annoyed at not being able to hear the rest right away!

Thanks for the mini-review. I ordered it. And good timing, Brian: the sale price at JPC ends tomorrow (and there is free shipping too at the moment  8) )

Sarge
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Brian on July 14, 2013, 07:23:39 AM
Thanks for the mini-review. I ordered it. And good timing, Brian: the sale price at JPC ends tomorrow (and there is free shipping too at the moment  8) )

Sarge

Is that free shipping only to Europe?

Also, Jeffrey, I suppose "friend" might be a generous term for this person, but I did end up drinking two of my favorite beers...
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 14, 2013, 09:40:41 AM
Is that free shipping only to Europe?

Probably only within Germany.

Sarge
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Geo Dude on July 14, 2013, 09:55:32 AM
Is that free shipping only to Europe?

Also, Jeffrey, I suppose "friend" might be a generous term for this person, but I did end up drinking two of my favorite beers...

Thanks for the tip.  I'll wait this one out and see how it goes.  Also, :P
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Geo Dude on July 21, 2013, 07:38:36 PM
Has the PI movement went to work on Grieg, yet?  If so, any recommendations?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on July 21, 2013, 09:05:11 PM
Has the PI movement went to work on Grieg, yet?  If so, any recommendations?
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_250/MI0001/150/MI0001150799.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
I believe she plays an Erard.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on July 22, 2013, 02:36:57 AM
(http://cdn.7static.com/static/img/sleeveart/00/022/350/0002235030_500.jpg)
I see this new release has received a glowing review on music web:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/July13/Mendelssohn_trios_94490.htm

Honestly, the samples don't convince me that this release equals the Musica Omnia release (in sound quality or pugnacity) , even though Musica Omnia doesn't contain the piece he wrote when he was eleven years old. So I guess that that's a reason to get this. There is the Benvenue Fortepiano Trio also but, for me, that also doesn't have the bite that Atlantis has.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Brian on July 22, 2013, 03:43:52 AM
I wrote that! I should point out that the performance of the second (numbered) trio didn't stack up to their playing in the others... as far as Atlantis goes, I love Penelope Crawford and her fortepiano choices, but Jaap Schroeder's violin playing bothers me just about every time he appears on Musica Omnia. Seems like every disc has a few wince-inducing moments of bad playing from him. Of course, maybe what I regard as "bad playing" is what you regard as a special quality. :)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on July 22, 2013, 04:13:43 AM
I wrote that! I should point out that the performance of the second (numbered) trio didn't stack up to their playing in the others... as far as Atlantis goes, I love Penelope Crawford and her fortepiano choices, but Jaap Schroeder's violin playing bothers me just about every time he appears on Musica Omnia. Seems like every disc has a few wince-inducing moments of bad playing from him. Of course, maybe what I regard as "bad playing" is what you regard as a special quality. :)
Well, maybe I should give this a try. How do you think it compares with the Huggett? 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Opus106 on July 22, 2013, 04:35:55 AM
Has the PI movement went to work on Grieg, yet?

Yes -- a long time ago!

http://www.youtube.com/v/J_Ztjt7JuUY

I'm with you, if you think the sound should be improved a tad. ;)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 22, 2013, 06:25:55 AM
Has the PI movement went to work on Grieg, yet?  If so, any recommendations?

Well, Grieg's dates are 1843-1907, so he was composing music in the latter half of the 19th century; so just thinking about the piano, by then the cast iron frame, improved strings, etc. had brought the instrument close to its 'modern' form (quote below from HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano)) - NOW, in the first half of that century, PI performances on the piano have a much more interesting chronology.  But just my 2 cents - Dave :)

Quote
In the period lasting from about 1790 to 1860, the Mozart-era piano underwent tremendous changes that led to the modern form of the instrument. This revolution was in response to a preference by composers and pianists for a more powerful, sustained piano sound, and made possible by the ongoing Industrial Revolution with resources such as high-quality piano wire for strings, and precision casting for the production of iron frames.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 22, 2013, 06:42:25 AM
I wrote that! I should point out that the performance of the second (numbered) trio didn't stack up to their playing in the others... as far as Atlantis goes, I love Penelope Crawford and her fortepiano choices, but Jaap Schroeder's violin playing bothers me just about every time he appears on Musica Omnia. Seems like every disc has a few wince-inducing moments of bad playing from him. Of course, maybe what I regard as "bad playing" is what you regard as a special quality. :)

Hey Brian - excellent review!  I own the two Musica Omnia offerings below - the early Trio by Felix is not included, but the Sextet, Op. 110 is on the CD w/ Trio, Op. 49; there is also a 24 minute disc of the performers discussing the music called 'Beyond the Notes' - the latter does not add much for me (the liner notes are thorough & excellent).  Now, I do have a couple of 'modern' performances of these works by Felix - should I get another w/ PIs - hmmm?  Thanks for the input - Dave :)

P.S. Just checked Amazon for the price on the Brilliant set and found a rather negative review by Scott Morrison HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Piano-Trios-F-Mendelssohn/dp/B00B7U5JDK/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1374507373&sr=1-2&keywords=mendelssohn+piano+trios+brilliant), a little uncharacteristic for him, but he is one of the few reviewers there that I am often in agreement -  :-X


(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/July13/Mendelssohn_trios_94490.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-Qx6RZgk/0/S/Mendelssohn_PTrios-S.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-DtDf7J6/0/S/Mendelssohn_TrioSextet-S.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 22, 2013, 07:05:23 AM
P.S. Just checked Amazon for the price on the Brilliant set and found a rather negative review by Scott Morrison

The review doesn't deter me. I want the set because it's PI (with a fortepiano). I already have MI versions that he admires: Istomin/Stern/Rose and Gilad/Fischer/Müller-Schott.

Sarge
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 22, 2013, 07:13:00 AM
The review doesn't deter me. I want the set because it's PI (with a fortepiano). I already have MI versions that he admires: Istomin/Stern/Rose and Gilad/Fischer/Müller-Schott.

Hi Sarge - well, I put the recording on my 'wish list' at the price being offered (and have Prime) since I just have the one set of PI performances & two modern ones, so four is a nice round number!  :D   Dave

P.S. Hey, maybe we can get Brian to post a 5* review on Amazon just to jack up the rating to a more appropriate 4* -  ;) ;D
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Brian on July 22, 2013, 08:00:40 AM
Dave, I wouldn't rate it 5 stars - as mentioned in the "Recordings of the Month" thread, that honorific was bestowed by my editors! I thought the Second Trio was rather less urgently played than the First, so if you're happy with the Atlantis recordings on Musica Omnia (that is a fun reading of the Sextet!), those may satisfy your needs.

Well, maybe I should give this a try. How do you think it compares with the Huggett?
'Fraid I can't answer that one, don't know the Huggett. :(
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on July 22, 2013, 08:56:20 AM
Hey Brian - excellent review!  I own the two Musica Omnia offerings below - the early Trio by Felix is not included, but the Sextet, Op. 110 is on the CD w/ Trio, Op. 49; there is also a 24 minute disc of the performers discussing the music called 'Beyond the Notes' - the latter does not add much for me (the liner notes are thorough & excellent).  Now, I do have a couple of 'modern' performances of these works by Felix - should I get another w/ PIs - hmmm?  Thanks for the input - Dave :)

P.S. Just checked Amazon for the price on the Brilliant set and found a rather negative review by Scott Morrison HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Piano-Trios-F-Mendelssohn/dp/B00B7U5JDK/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1374507373&sr=1-2&keywords=mendelssohn+piano+trios+brilliant), a little uncharacteristic for him, but he is one of the few reviewers there that I am often in agreement -  :-X


(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/July13/Mendelssohn_trios_94490.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-Qx6RZgk/0/S/Mendelssohn_PTrios-S.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-DtDf7J6/0/S/Mendelssohn_TrioSextet-S.jpg)

What is so surprising to me is the fact that the Mendelssohn piano trios are so often picked for a period performance?


Leertouwer et al (Globe) do the job excellently for me - never had the inclination to look further. :)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on July 23, 2013, 01:36:15 AM
What is so surprising to me is the fact that the Mendelssohn piano trios are so often picked for a period performance?


Leertouwer et al (Globe) do the job excellently for me - never had the inclination to look further. :)
Q

I'd like to see more Dvorak (although Caste and Explorations are very good), the Brahms trios, as well as Tchaikovsky and Faure perhaps.

I wrote that! I should point out that the performance of the second (numbered) trio didn't stack up to their playing in the others... as far as Atlantis goes, I love Penelope Crawford and her fortepiano choices, but Jaap Schroeder's violin playing bothers me just about every time he appears on Musica Omnia. Seems like every disc has a few wince-inducing moments of bad playing from him. Of course, maybe what I regard as "bad playing" is what you regard as a special quality. :)

I've been obsessing about this since your post. I have the Huggett to compare to Schroeder. I love the spirit of Atlantis but Schroeder does seem play on the edge intonation-wise sometimes. He is also quite rough - in a way I like - in the Schumann quartet compared with Scienza. I'm really curious if there's an explanation that violinists or others familiar with technical considerations might have. I'm curious if Schoeder is making an aesthetic choice. Or maybe I'm just over thinking it. Crawford is marvelous in all the Omnia releases.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on July 23, 2013, 08:01:42 AM
I'd like to see more Dvorak (although Caste and Explorations are very good), the Brahms trios, as well as Tchaikovsky and Faure perhaps.

Hear, hear! Fauré piano quartets and trios with an Érard, can you imagine? :)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on July 30, 2013, 10:30:15 PM
(http://he3.magnatune.com/music/Eric%20Zivian/Chopin%20Preludes%20for%20Piano/cover_600.jpg)
(http://en.chopin.nifc.pl/=files/foto/5/1691/o/5544173.jpg)
I haven't seen too much mention of these. Comparing the nocturnes on PPs of Van Oort and Boegner with Dang Thai Son, I think Dang Thai Son is the strongest. However, I humbly submit my own opinion as the least reliable of those who regularly chime in on the forums (I regularly reevaluate my opinion according to suggestions made here).
Still...
I wonder what the rest of the year will bring in terms of romantic PI recordings. Perhaps we'll see the conclusion of Brautigam's Songs Without words...
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Pat B on August 01, 2013, 08:19:45 PM
Hi milk. I don't have any of the nocturnes in HIP. For a while I was considering the "Real Chopin" box but never pulled the trigger. Meanwhile I was fortunate enough to find Lubimov's Ballades etc. at a reasonable price. On my first two listens I thought: this doesn't work, and maybe Chopin is where I draw the line on PI. But your post (although about different Chopin) reminded me to give it another chance and am enjoying it much more.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on August 01, 2013, 09:21:31 PM
Hi milk. I don't have any of the nocturnes in HIP. For a while I was considering the "Real Chopin" box but never pulled the trigger. Meanwhile I was fortunate enough to find Lubimov's Ballades etc. at a reasonable price. On my first two listens I thought: this doesn't work, and maybe Chopin is where I draw the line on PI. But your post (although about different Chopin) reminded me to give it another chance and am enjoying it much more.
I'm a really big fan of Lubimov. His recent Debussy is fantastic. I'll have to search out his Chopin. I have a really good Alain Planes Chopin recording and also an interesting recital by Katin on a square piano. I'm curious what others might think of the Dan Son Thai. 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Geo Dude on August 05, 2013, 05:34:23 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511rn-Nn-qL._SX300_.jpg)

This is just wonderful.  Any other recommendations for Brahms late piano works on a period instrument?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Geo Dude on August 09, 2013, 07:26:53 AM
Speaking of Brahms on period instruments, this very recent release should be excellent if it is half as good as the previous three volumes in the series:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5109OmRWj8L._SY300_.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on August 18, 2013, 08:59:48 PM
I wasn't quite convinced by Ritter as an interpreter.  :-\ I mean...Brahms is hard to pull of and Ritter is not in the ranks of a Lubimov or Staier, who would seem good candidates.

Anyway, anyone noticed this before? Yoi can never have too many recordings of these pieces - also hard to get right IMO. :)



Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on September 02, 2013, 12:04:32 PM
Another issue by Tobias Koch:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4260036252859.jpg)

With more than just Schumann...

Robert Schumann (1810–1856): Bunte Blätter Opus 99; Albumblätter Opus 124; Albumblatt Ahnung; Da kein Brief von dir kam.
Johannes Brahms (1833–1897): Albumblatt Frei nach Schumann; Albumblatt für Mathilde Hartmann; Albumblatt für Arnold Wehner.   
Theodor Kirchner (1823–1903): Albumblatt Der Klavierstimmer kommt; Gedenkblatt Robert Schumann † 1856.
Woldemar Bargiel (1828–1897): Albumblatt

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on October 20, 2013, 06:21:29 AM
Listening to this tonight:
(http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/33060653/R+Schumann+Humoreske+In+B+Flat+Major++Toccata+In+C.jpg)
Piet Kuijken also has a recording of Humoreske on fortepiano but I'm responding more to Giacometti.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Pat B on November 05, 2013, 09:31:22 AM
This was posted on the listening thread regarding Schubert's Wanderer Fantasy:
I like to a degree :-\... it is precisely the pianistic aspect that evokes some reservations - I like other aspects of Schubert better.
A performance on a period instrument might change my mind - as it did in Liszt's case. After Pollini and Perahia, I kind of lost interest and stopped looking any further.

Yesterday I re-listened to Viviana Sofronitsky on fp. It's about as good as I remembered it (which is very good). Today, I just listened to Pollini which is excellent in its way, though very pianistic and not at all period, of course. I probably don't completely understand this piece yet but I think I prefer Sofronitsky. Based on what you wrote, I vote for you to consider this. :)



Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on November 08, 2013, 06:21:22 PM
(http://c3.cduniverse.ws/resized/250x500/music/195/1499195.jpg) I'm curious how this (Richard Burnett and the Fitzwilliam SQ) compares with Scienza and Atlantis. Anyone have a strong opinion on the matter?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on November 14, 2013, 12:48:43 AM
Well, I listened to Benvenue today and I was much impressed. And, I think Huggett is without the drawbacks some might see in Schroder (although Crawford and the sound of her instrument are stunning in the Atlantis). Benvenue deliver crisp and energetic performances. The musicianship is very fine all around. Actually, I also much like Scienza but it's on an album with a jazz ensemble and the second movement fades in from some other wacky sounding stuff. Scienza is the fastest of the bunch, their feverish performance is a great contrast to the much slower, more lugubrious,  Atantis (Benvenue is in the middle). It seems there is no way to get a hold of Scienza's quartet unmarred by this quirky jazz mix - a real shame because it's a gem of a performance.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pEP0p7y-L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
I think there may be a period performance out their led by Jan Vermeulen. Anyone?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on November 14, 2013, 12:59:57 AM
Whatever faults exist in the Atlantis, I have no finer period recordings in terms of sound quality than those released by Omnia. The Schumann is no exception. That, coupled with the extraordinarily beautiful sound of Crawford's Graf, make Atlantis recordings exceptionally pleasurable listening experiences.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on November 14, 2013, 01:09:27 PM
[…] Actually, I also much like Scienza but it's on an album with a jazz ensemble and the second movement fades in from some other wacky sounding stuff. Scienza is the fastest of the bunch, their feverish performance is a great contrast to the much slower, more lugubrious,  Atantis (Benvenue is in the middle). It seems there is no way to get a hold of Scienza's quartet unmarred by this quirky jazz mix - a real shame because it's a gem of a performance.


QFT… Let's hope Winter & Winter will release it some day in a less confusing format

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on November 15, 2013, 02:12:24 AM
(http://images.music-story.com/img/album_A_320/alexei-lubimov-beethoven-moonlight-waldstein-storm.jpg)
New one.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on November 15, 2013, 02:23:06 AM
(https://fbcdn-photos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/941288_593598214021811_627324602_a.jpg)
Not a good image here but it's Isserlis and Levin's release coming in January.
(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/05/14/arts/steven/steven-articleInline.jpg)
Not to nitpick but it supposed to have an endpin? It goes with a NYTimes article about their performance, on period instruments, at the 92 St Y in NY. 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Pat B on November 15, 2013, 09:48:19 AM
Not to nitpick but it supposed to have an endpin? It goes with a NYTimes article about their performance, on period instruments, at the 92 St Y in NY.

The endpin was invented in 1845 (per wikipedia but it's cited). So I guess purists would say no. Personally, I like the sound of gut strings and I admire the performers who make the effort to use unmodified (or equivalent) instruments, but when choosing recordings, I don't get hung up over endpins or chin rests.

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on November 15, 2013, 03:33:33 PM
The endpin was invented in 1845 (per wikipedia but it's cited). So I guess purists would say no. Personally, I like the sound of gut strings and I admire the performers who make the effort to use unmodified (or equivalent) instruments, but when choosing recordings, I don't get hung up over endpins or chin rests.
Sure. Just curious because I noticed Istomin doesn't use one in this clip playing Mendelssohn with Viviana Sofronitsky:
http://www.youtube.com/v/YcUBmpevT8A
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Pat B on November 15, 2013, 07:35:19 PM
Right -- it's pretty common amongst the PI crowd to not use endpins. I've seen Bylsma with and without, even on the same instrument, for early 19th-century music.

I don't think of Isserlis as a HIP/PI player, but who knows -- maybe he'll pull a Mullova.

Thanks for posting that video.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on March 24, 2014, 10:35:40 AM
This was posted on the listening thread regarding Schubert's Wanderer Fantasy:
Yesterday I re-listened to Viviana Sofronitsky on fp. It's about as good as I remembered it (which is very good). Today, I just listened to Pollini which is excellent in its way, though very pianistic and not at all period, of course. I probably don't completely understand this piece yet but I think I prefer Sofronitsky. Based on what you wrote, I vote for you to consider this. :)



Somehow I missed your post, but a belated yet sincere thanks anyway! :)



Perhaps some of you remember me advocating the recording below, adding the caveat that it might be impossible to find.

Well, it finally happened, it has been reissued. It is the only performance on period instruments of these pieces I know.
Which is peculiar, considering the choice of period performances in the clarinet quintet.
But never mind, in all fairness: this is the only recording (on period instruments) you'll ever need, it is that good…

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/3760195735190.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/johannes-brahms-sonaten-fuer-klarinette-klavier-op-120-nr-1-2/hnum/4173835)

The original issue was on Ricercar. It took me a while to figure out this new label called "Rewind", but it is the mid price label on which Outheremusic (http://www.outhere-music.com/en) reissues selected recordings from the ZigZag, Ricercar and Alpha catalogue. Useful information to remember... 8)

Strongly recommended, spread the word… :)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Wakefield on March 24, 2014, 11:22:21 AM
Somehow I missed your post, but a belated yet sincere thanks anyway! :)



Perhaps some of you remember me advocating the recording below, adding the caveat that it might be impossible to find.

Well, it finally happened, it has been reissued. It is the only performance on period instruments of these pieces I know.
Which is peculiar, considering the choice of period performances in the clarinet quintet.
But never mind, in all fairness: this is the only recording (on period instruments) you'll ever need, it is that good…

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/3760195735190.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/johannes-brahms-sonaten-fuer-klarinette-klavier-op-120-nr-1-2/hnum/4173835)

The original issue was on Ricercar. It took me a while to figure out this new label called "Rewind", but it is the mid price label on which Outheremusic (http://www.outhere-music.com/en) reissues selected recordings from the ZigZag, Ricercar and Alpha catalogue. Useful information to remember... 8)

Strongly recommended, spread the word… :)

Q

Great info, Q! Both the Brahms disk and the label.

I own this excellent disk of the same repertoire played on PI:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61efQQpgNdL.jpg)

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Amon%2BRa/CDSAR037
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: amw on June 08, 2014, 07:38:44 PM
So


I really like this; it might be my new go-to recording for the Schumann violin sonatas (modern or historical). I know Demus, but never heard of the violinist before.

Any thoughts on these?




Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Pat B on June 08, 2014, 08:29:45 PM
There are some youtube videos of Irnberger and Demus (Beethoven, Schumann, Bartók). I would not call these period performances. I haven't heard the CDs though.

I have the Schumann disc by Sepec-Staier. I am happy enough with it that I'm not really looking for another. :)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: amw on June 08, 2014, 08:44:34 PM
The piano sounded period at least—I don't know whether the violin was really set up with gut strings and no chinrest and so forth. Also don't know whether this is true HIP or just people playing on old instruments in a modern style for some reason. I enjoy it anyways.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: king ubu on June 09, 2014, 12:39:41 AM
There's this:



But my favourite is Ferras/Barbizet, I assume ... have yet to spend some more time with Isabelle Faust (on cpo with Silke Avenhaus), but I don't think she's ever going to be a favourite in romantic repertoire (her solo Bach is terrific though, and so is her Bartók).
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on June 09, 2014, 05:17:26 AM
This is the one that grabbed me: (http://www.naxos.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/GEN04043.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Mandryka on June 18, 2014, 12:28:25 PM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/131/MI0001131971.jpg)

Cor de Groot plays a handful of Chopin's mazurkas on an 1847 Pleyel. The performances seem pretty workmanlike at best. 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on June 18, 2014, 02:49:35 PM
I just picked up this and "Remaking Chopin" by the same Asheim. Although the latter is not period performance he does use a square piano. I haven't listened yet but it looks interesting.   

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 18, 2014, 02:56:30 PM

Well, it finally happened, it has been reissued. It is the only performance on period instruments of these pieces I know.
Which is peculiar, considering the choice of period performances in the clarinet quintet.
But never mind, in all fairness: this is the only recording (on period instruments) you'll ever need, it is that good…

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/3760195735190.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-kmZLQDL/0/O/album.jpg)

Strongly recommended, spread the word… :)

Hi Que - I just bought the MP3 offering above from Classicsonline w/ the cover art above (right) - no booklet - would love to know about the instruments - are you aware of any web sources for these notes?  Just asking - Dave :)

P.S. just burned a CD-R which played perfectly - happy!
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on June 18, 2014, 04:58:11 PM
Hi Que - I just bought the MP3 offering above from Classicsonline w/ the cover art above (right) - no booklet - would love to know about the instruments - are you aware of any web sources for these notes?  Just asking - Dave :)

P.S. just burned a CD-R which played perfectly - happy!

When I get home from vacation, which is this weekend, I'll be happy to check the booklet for you. :)

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on June 30, 2014, 03:11:03 AM
Try this

(http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/1143/chopincalliopejc4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

http://www.preludeklassiekemuziek.nl/stream/nov06_chopin_calliope_B.html (http://www.preludeklassiekemuziek.nl/stream/nov06_chopin_calliope_B.html)

Janusz Olejniczak also recorded a few excellent HIP Chopin recordings for Opus 111.  Mazurkas, Polonaises, in addition to several mixed programs.  "At Home" from the label's Chopin series was also used as the OST for the film "La note bleu" in which Olejniczak plays Chopin himself  ;D  (Leonhardt starred as Bach himself in a film, too.  Never saw the film though.) Coin conducts the Larghetto from cto2.

Luc Devos also recorded all nocturnes for Ricercar.  But they may only be found used now I think.

BTW, obviously I like the Van Oort nocturnes a lot more than others do - his Mozart and Haydn is even better though.  Still, for those with less adventurous tastes, the Boegner set above may be a surer bet.   Beautifully recorded.
I just notice that the Devos has ben rereleased. I can't justify the purchase unless someone says it's fantastic. I do like Dang Thai Son period instrument recording - one some people may not know.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Brian on September 02, 2014, 04:53:27 PM
Jura Margulis has worked with a piano maker to build a modern concert grand that has the kind of powerful sordino (mute) pedal heard on 1830s Conrad Graf instruments. You can hear it on his Oehms recital, "Franz Schubert: Piano con sordino". The sordino pedal does its job, and the piano does produce a softer, more delicate sound than (m)any instruments from the last 50 years.

Unfortunately, it also proves conclusively that the original fortepianos were better. :(
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: amw on September 02, 2014, 05:25:47 PM
I am now listening to this. It's pretty good. And anything involving the Kuijken dynasty must be HIP right?

(http://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/24/56/5400439005624_600.jpg)

The Novelettes are a somewhat under-appreciated cycle... I think because they're about 45 minutes of typical Schumann additive forms, 35 minutes of which are in the key of D major, with no overarching structure or programme... and very awkward to play... but if you don't place too high a premium on logic in the Beethovenian sense, they're as good as any of his other major piano works IMO.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Jo498 on September 02, 2014, 11:04:25 PM
There is actually a Beethoven String quintet and op.59 by the Kuijken family on modern instruments and, as I recall, mostly without HIP affectations (I only have the disc with quintet/59,3, because recordings of the quintet are not exactly thick on the ground.)

This can become confusing. Robert Levine played a set of English Suites in Haensslers Bach edition on a modern piano; the abovementioned Janus Olejniczak has in addition to some all-HIP discs, a selection of mazurkas and polonaises on modern piano (op.111/naive)... go figure...
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Mandryka on September 10, 2014, 06:23:11 AM
I'm keen to hear Beethoven's op 111 played on a Johann Andreas Streicher piano, or a good copy. Does anyone know of a recording?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: JaapT on November 30, 2014, 04:32:59 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VbcJUFZPL.jpg)

Not long after Frans Brüggen passed away I bought the disk of the Orchestra of the 18th Century/Brüggen with the Chopin piano concertos, with the piano played by the latest Chopin concours winner, Yulianna Avdeeva.  This despite that I also have the version by Brüggen cs and Dang Thai Son.

I must say that I did not regret buying the new disc at all. Somehow the new interpretation is much more striking and emotional. In fact, this is the best version of the concertos of Chopin that I have heard. Apparently the decision to award Yulianna Avdeeva the Chopin prize was controversial. It was said that her Chopin playing was not the proper way of playing Chopin. I am not sure what proper Chopin really is, but clearly I like Andrea's playing of Chopin better than what is considered proper. She takes a lot of agogic freedoms. The playing of the old Erard is amazing, and the old piano does not seem to impose limits on her.

I am surprised that this recording did not yet draw attention at this forum (as far as I can tell). I hope to set this straight here. Andrea seems a woman to keep an eye on. The CD is also a worthy addition to Frans Brüggen's legacy.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: eoghan on December 09, 2014, 01:39:59 AM
This thread is such a brilliant resource and already has boosted my wishlist substantially. The van Immerseel/Beths/Bylsma recording of the Schubert trios is stunning and is just about the first time that I've actually managed to fully understand, appreciate and actively enjoy Schubert. I'd also strongly recommend the Atlantis Trio CD mentioned earlier of Mendelssohn's first trio and the sextet, which from this reading you'd never believe was such a  juvenile work such is its energy when handled by this group.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on December 10, 2014, 03:10:13 PM
Even though I haven't been listening to much romantic music lately, I'd still like to see more important chamber works tackled. For instance, Dvorak (who has been done only a little). 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: brokebassoon on December 17, 2014, 09:19:22 AM
Even though I haven't been listening to much romantic music lately, I'd still like to see more important chamber works tackled. For instance, Dvorak (who has been done only a little).

These are the only ones I'm aware of:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81Dt8nBUp7L._SX466_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51KD4RN9AGL.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71-X63V3SJL._SX522_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51noxvHYMzL._SS280.jpg)

The L'Archibudelli disc is quite hard to come by, as it is no longer in print and has never been re-released (either as a CD-R or otherwise). I picked up a lightly used copy not long ago for a relative bargain, considering Amazon sellers often want a small fortune for it... Does anyone know of any other recordings of Dvořák chamber music on period instruments?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on December 18, 2014, 05:01:59 AM
The L'Archibudelli disc is quite hard to come by, as it is no longer in print and has never been re-released (either as a CD-R or otherwise). I picked up a lightly used copy not long ago for a relative bargain, considering Amazon sellers often want a small fortune for it... Does anyone know of any other recordings of Dvořák chamber music on period instruments?
Thanks for the post. I have the two piano chamber recordings. I think the Ensemble Explorations one is particularly good.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Brian on December 19, 2014, 05:17:37 PM
How is Bruggen's Schubert cycle compared to Minkowski or Immerseel?

(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/190/61/0/9/981.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Brian on February 24, 2015, 12:34:59 PM
New Liszt recital recorded on an 1875 Steinway.

(http://ecstatic.textalk.se/shop/17115/art15/h3687/4933687-origpic-f09e0e.png)

inc. four movements from the Italian Year of Pilgrimage, and Funerailles. Track list and sample clips. (http://www.eclassical.com/liszt-carnet-d-un-pelerin.html) And another link with a 2-minute clip and background info in French (http://musicologie.org/15/les%20_carnets_d_un_pelerin_de_franz_liszt_par_cyril_huve.html).
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: eoghan on April 19, 2015, 12:26:21 AM
Browsing the Anima Eterna/Immerseel discography (http://animaeterna.be/discografie/?lang=en) is interesting - a lot of late 19C works covered. They tackle, amongst others, Tchaikovsky's 4th symphony; the Symphonie Fantastique (a quick google comes up with fairly negative reactions to this one); Carmina Burana (!); an album of Rimsky-Korsakov (Sheherazade) and Borodin - this one particularly interests me; an album of Ravel; Pictures at an Exhibition; a Poulenc CD; and one of Debussy. There's also a HIP Johann Strauss album! Does anyone have any of these and can offer opinions? On paper it sounds like plenty of interesting stuff.

By the way, I love Gardiner's Planets.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Brian on April 19, 2015, 04:36:01 AM
Right now I'm listening to this new release:



Performed on a beautiful wood-finish (ie not black) Steinway from 1901.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: king ubu on April 19, 2015, 12:34:41 PM
Thanks for the post. I have the two piano chamber recordings. I think the Ensemble Explorations one is particularly good.

I have that Archibudelli disc as well - nice!

Some other (semi-)HIP Dvorák (don't have any of these):










Would love to get the Michiels, but it's way too pricey alas.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on April 19, 2015, 12:51:26 PM
I have that Archibudelli disc as well - nice!

Some other (semi-)HIP Dvorák (don't have any of these):



Nothing HIP in these performances, unless the only criteria in this thread is that the conductor  specializes (mostly) in HIP performances. The performances themselves are quite good but no real standouts.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: king ubu on April 19, 2015, 01:06:14 PM
That's why I put "(semi-)" in there - I guess if Harnoncourt or Hogwood or whomever of the HIPsters conducts a non-HIP orchestra, they may reduce sizes and virbrato etc, approach HIP in some way? Or else what's the point of them getting/taking on those gigs? But please bear with me, I still feel like a bloody newbie in all things classical, plus I'm nowhere near HIP-orthodoxy so I wouldn't really know.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Brian on April 19, 2015, 02:05:48 PM
That's why I put "(semi-)" in there - I guess if Harnoncourt or Hogwood or whomever of the HIPsters conducts a non-HIP orchestra, they may reduce sizes and virbrato etc, approach HIP in some way? Or else what's the point of them getting/taking on those gigs? But please bear with me, I still feel like a bloody newbie in all things classical, plus I'm nowhere near HIP-orthodoxy so I wouldn't really know.
Not in the case of Harnoncourt's Dvorak, although it is the case sometimes. For example, Charles Mackerras often got HIP-ish results with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra, and Roger Norrington tried to do HIP performance with the SWR Orchestra of Stuttgart.

Harnoncourt's Dvorak DOES have standouts in my opinion - The Golden Spinning-Wheel, and the Piano Concerto with Pierre-Laurent Aimard.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on April 19, 2015, 04:26:09 PM
That's why I put "(semi-)" in there - I guess if Harnoncourt or Hogwood or whomever of the HIPsters conducts a non-HIP orchestra, they may reduce sizes and virbrato etc, approach HIP in some way? Or else what's the point of them getting/taking on those gigs? But please bear with me, I still feel like a bloody newbie in all things classical, plus I'm nowhere near HIP-orthodoxy so I wouldn't really know.

Harnoncourt is sort of an odd bird - the guy takes a dip in anything from Monteverdi to Brucker and Dvorak. In these performances he is actually fairly straightforward, nothing that is weird or jumps out at you. It would be pointless anyway since by Dvorak's time the modern orchestra as we know it today is pretty set. You get less vibrato and portamento and the temp somtimes is a big slower than others but nothing dramatic.

If you want to hear Harnoncourt inject his personality in Romantic works check out his Schumann symphonies. There he truly makes you rethink what these works are about. You will hear how he totally rebalances the orchestra to reveal how shockingly provacative Schumann's orchestration is. Sometimes what is usually loud is soft and what is fast is slow, but nothing is pedestrian.

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on April 19, 2015, 04:35:10 PM
Not in the case of Harnoncourt's Dvorak, although it is the case sometimes. For example, Charles Mackerras often got HIP-ish results with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra, and Roger Norrington tried to do HIP performance with the SWR Orchestra of Stuttgart.

Harnoncourt's Dvorak DOES have standouts in my opinion - The Golden Spinning-Wheel, and the Piano Concerto with Pierre-Laurent Aimard.

The Scottish Chamber Orchestra, by it's nature a smaller ensemble (sometimes) using natural horns, is ideally suited for HIP-ish kind of performances. I remember hearing Mackerras Brahms and Mozart with this ensemble and it does sound more or less like a period-instrument ensemble in terms of overall feel, although no one is going to mistake it for any of the big name period-instrument bands.

Harnoncourt's performance of Dvorak is very good, don't get me wrong, but competition in this field is as tough as it gets. I am more used to his adding something new to a work that he touches, I am just not sure what he has to say about Dvorak.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: king ubu on April 19, 2015, 09:26:22 PM
Thanks guys! Obviously I wasn't aware that H's Dvorák wasn't his usual po-faced self  ;)

I'm not too big on him in general, so I've never checked him out beyond baroque/classical so far. But I've got some Gardiner line-up (that's actual HIP, I assume, with his revolutionary romantics).

As for ECO, I've enjoyed plenty of their work here and there (Perahia playing Mozart comes to mind first).

But back to Dvorák: does anyone here know any of the piano discs, Michiels or Kvapil? And does Kvapil use a modern instrument on the Supraphon box set?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on April 20, 2015, 03:36:38 PM
Thanks guys! Obviously I wasn't aware that H's Dvorák wasn't his usual po-faced self  ;)

I'm not too big on him in general, so I've never checked him out beyond baroque/classical so far. But I've got some Gardiner line-up (that's actual HIP, I assume, with his revolutionary romantics).

As for ECO, I've enjoyed plenty of their work here and there (Perahia playing Mozart comes to mind first).

Again, the ECO (English Chamber Orchestra) is a modern instrument ensemble. The ensemble size is approximately what it was during Mozart's time but they use modern instruments and their performance practices aren't really in any way HIP. You can hear that clearly in the Perahia/Mozart set: wonderful, spontaneous, beautifully played recordings that strike an ideal balance between soloists and orchestra but is not HIP in any way.

The ORR used by Gardiner is a period instrument ensemble. Some of the other big ones are Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment, Orchestra of the 18th Century, The London Classical Players, and the Hanover Band.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Brian on April 20, 2015, 06:16:57 PM
But back to Dvorák: does anyone here know any of the piano discs, Michiels or Kvapil? And does Kvapil use a modern instrument on the Supraphon box set?
I think Kvapil uses a modern piano in the box set. I like the recital CD where he plays on a piano from Dvorak's time!
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: king ubu on April 20, 2015, 09:54:34 PM
I think Kvapil uses a modern piano in the box set. I like the recital CD where he plays on a piano from Dvorak's time!

One of the two I depitcted above? Both state on the cover that they were recorded on Dvorák's own Bösendorfer.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: brokebassoon on April 28, 2015, 12:55:32 PM
Browsing the Anima Eterna/Immerseel discography (http://animaeterna.be/discografie/?lang=en) is interesting - a lot of late 19C works covered. They tackle, amongst others, Tchaikovsky's 4th symphony; the Symphonie Fantastique (a quick google comes up with fairly negative reactions to this one); Carmina Burana (!); an album of Rimsky-Korsakov (Sheherazade) and Borodin - this one particularly interests me; an album of Ravel; Pictures at an Exhibition; a Poulenc CD; and one of Debussy. There's also a HIP Johann Strauss album! Does anyone have any of these and can offer opinions? On paper it sounds like plenty of interesting stuff.

By the way, I love Gardiner's Planets.

I think I have all of these in one format or another. My personal favorites are the Tchaikovsky disc (nothing revolutionary, just very good), Carmina Burana, Scheherazade, and Debussy. Their Liszt album and a live disc with An American in Paris (if you can find it) are also excellent. There are much better options for Symphonie Fantastique (Gardiner, Les Siècles). Some scrappy oboe d'amore playing as well as dubious choice of bassoon ruined the Ravel disc for me. Pictures and Poulenc are pretty good. The Strauss disc is quite good, but I just can't get that excited about the Waltz King...

If you'd like to hear Planets on period instruments, the New Queens Hall Orchestra recorded it to great effect before disbanding.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Peter Power Pop on April 28, 2015, 03:27:27 PM
I think I have all of these in one format or another. My personal favorites are the Tchaikovsky disc (nothing revolutionary, just very good), Carmina Burana, Scheherazade, and Debussy. Their Liszt album and a live disc with An American in Paris (if you can find it) are also excellent. There are much better options for Symphonie Fantastique (Gardiner, Les Siècles). Some scrappy oboe d'amore playing as well as dubious choice of bassoon ruined the Ravel disc for me. Pictures and Poulenc are pretty good. The Strauss disc is quite good, but I just can't get that excited about the Waltz King...

If you'd like to hear Planets on period instruments, the New Queens Hall Orchestra recorded it to great effect before disbanding.

[Warning: Self-Promotion Alert] You can hear the New Queens Hall Orchestra Planets here:

https://petersplanets.wordpress.com/2015/01/01/goodman-1996/ (https://petersplanets.wordpress.com/2015/01/01/goodman-1996/)

You can easily ignore the text on that page.

(https://petersplanets.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/holst-the-planets-goodman-new-queens-hall-orchestra-1996.jpg) (https://petersplanets.wordpress.com/2015/01/01/goodman-1996/)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Peter Power Pop on May 07, 2015, 05:13:37 PM
Browsing the Anima Eterna/Immerseel discography (http://animaeterna.be/discografie/?lang=en) is interesting -  ... [snip] ... They tackle, amongst others ... [snip] ... Debussy. ... [snip, snip, snip]

[snip overload]

I'm currently listening to a lot of Debussy (for a possible blog comparing recordings of La Mer), and I'm loving Immerseel's La Mer. It's by far my favourite HIP La Mer. Actually, it's one of my favourite La Mers period. (Pun definitely intended.)

You can hear the Immerseel disc on Spotify (https://play.spotify.com/album/2nUCsJsawYjT5OkJpvemEe).

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61ciJJYOMAL._SL1000_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Debussy-Images-Pr%C3%A9lude-lapr%C3%A8s-midi-faune/dp/B008XQ4N2O)

Incidentally, there's another HIP Debussy album that I know of. It's with Les Siècles (http://www.lessiecles.com/en/), conducted by François-Xavier Roth (http://www.francoisxavierroth.com/).

You can hear the Roth disc on Spotify (https://play.spotify.com/album/0lovA859Rr4zqjfWOVScSJ).

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81k6Ol3UZJL._SL1500_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Debussy-mer-Premiere-Suite-dorchestre/dp/B00B9GZHPM)

The Roth La Mer is well played and recorded, but it's not doing much for me emotionally. The Immerseel, on the other hand, is full of life. It sounds like a living, breathing thing. And I love it.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on July 18, 2015, 03:46:16 PM
Looks like Penelope Crawford released a Beethoven and a Schumann CD this year. Any thoughts anyone?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on July 18, 2015, 04:13:08 PM
Not in the case of Harnoncourt's Dvorak, although it is the case sometimes. For example, Charles Mackerras often got HIP-ish results with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra, and Roger Norrington tried to do HIP performance with the SWR Orchestra of Stuttgart.

Harnoncourt's Dvorak DOES have standouts in my opinion - The Golden Spinning-Wheel, and the Piano Concerto with Pierre-Laurent Aimard.

The Golden Spinning-Wheel is the piece whose story Old Nick elucidated in stupefying detail before performing it with the VPO in Berlin. Otherwise what I remember most about that unfortunate concert was a heavy-handed Moldau that sounded like the river had become as polluted with sludge as the Hudson.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Mandryka on July 19, 2015, 10:13:19 PM
Looks like Penelope Crawford released a Beethoven and a Schumann CD this year. Any thoughts anyone?

I haven't been able to find the Schumann (is it a chamber CD? ) but I listened to one track of the Beethoven, the first movement of op 101. What I thought was this: it was the most "middle period" op 101/i that I can remember hearing.  And the least spiritual, the least etherial, the least nimble, the least sweet, the least luminescent, the least poetic, the least brooding, the least joyful.

Here's a good op 101 from Martha Argerich

https://www.youtube.com/v/I-Fp0SEHhLU
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Brian on July 20, 2015, 03:44:17 AM
Looks like the Schumann is brand-new.

(http://www.musicaomnia.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/mo0511webcvr-457x457.jpg)

By the way, to provide a counterpoint (Mandryka and I usually have opposing opinions of keyboard performances, for whatever reason), Todd and I very much enjoyed Crawford's new Beethoven album. Here's Todd's review (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,19569.msg881877.html#msg881877) and here's an interview I did with her (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2015/May/Crawford_interview.htm) about her performing approach, if you haven't seen that. :)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Mandryka on July 20, 2015, 09:31:50 AM
Here's Todd's review
 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,19569.msg881877.html#msg881877)

What's interesting about that is that T heard  it (101/i) as a late period performance, while I didn't. I heard  the mood as sweaty passionate striving heroism like you hear quite often in performances of the Hammer i or the Appassionata.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Wakefield on July 20, 2015, 10:26:13 AM
Looks like the Schumann is brand-new.

(http://www.musicaomnia.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/mo0511webcvr-457x457.jpg)

By the way, to provide a counterpoint (Mandryka and I usually have opposing opinions of keyboard performances, for whatever reason), Todd and I very much enjoyed Crawford's new Beethoven album. Here's Todd's review (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,19569.msg881877.html#msg881877) and here's an interview I did with her (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2015/May/Crawford_interview.htm) about her performing approach, if you haven't seen that. :)

This Schumann looks as a must-have!

I also noticed a new disk with Schubert's songs, but the soprano's voice doesn't sound very attractive.  :(
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: kishnevi on July 20, 2015, 05:58:59 PM
I haven't been able to find the Schumann (is it a chamber CD? ) but I listened to one track of the Beethoven, the first movement of op 101. What I thought was this: it was the most "middle period" op 101/i that I can remember hearing.  And the least spiritual, the least etherial, the least nimble, the least sweet, the least luminescent, the least poetic, the least brooding, the least joyful.

Here's a good op 101 from Martha Argerich

https://www.youtube.com/v/I-Fp0SEHhLU

That is about how I felt about Crawford's 101110.  Although I think I reduced it to "rather boring".  I found nothing of what Brian found.   ETA...misremembered which CD of Crawford's I have.

BTW, this post from New Releases should also go here....
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11592.msg908923.html#msg908923
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Mandryka on July 20, 2015, 08:04:56 PM
That is about how I felt about Crawford's 101110.  Although I think I reduced it to "rather boring".  I found nothing of what Brian found.   ETA...misremembered which CD of Crawford's I have.

BTW, this post from New Releases should also go here....
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11592.msg908923.html#msg908923

I thought the op 110 was glib in the outer movements, boots on the piano in the second.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Wakefield on July 22, 2015, 07:43:40 AM
I haven't been able to find the Schumann (is it a chamber CD? ) but I listened to one track of the Beethoven, the first movement of op 101. What I thought was this: it was the most "middle period" op 101/i that I can remember hearing.  And the least spiritual, the least etherial, the least nimble, the least sweet, the least luminescent, the least poetic, the least brooding, the least joyful.

Here's a good op 101 from Martha Argerich

https://www.youtube.com/v/I-Fp0SEHhLU

Ideas are born sweet and get older fierce. I don’t exactly recall who said this (or something like this), but I remembered it when I did read your message.

Probably, Crawford’s interpretation should be understood as an attempt of pre-Romantic performance. Beethoven before Schubert, Liszt, Wagner and Mahler; nimble, lighter, lesser tortuous and with a bigger sense of personal freedom. In addition, I think Crawford listens in the right way to the voice, technical features and spirit of the instrument that she plays, an instrument even slightly posterior to Beethoven's age (and more robust?). But, obviously, a century of Romantic interpretive tradition isn't easy of forgetting.

In summary, I agree with Brian, probably even more than himself.  :P
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Mandryka on July 22, 2015, 08:00:42 AM
Yep Gordo, it was those sorts of thoughts which made me try to avoid saying whether or not I thought what Crawford does is good, right, enjoyable. In 101.

Having said that, if you're right and the Crawford project is about deromanticisation (like Gulda's project I suppose), it would be interesting to read what she says about this, how she arrives at her decisions. I've never seen anything to suggest that the Crawford way is a serious historical reconstruction of some pre romantic style.

In 110, that's later, I'm less open to what Crawford does. Beethoven was, when he wrote 110,  caught up in religious ideas of a mystical variety. I think. In the case of 110, I think that Lubimov is the superior musician.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Wakefield on July 22, 2015, 08:24:52 AM
She writes her essays in music.  :)

Well, as far as I know, she is quite involved with other musicians akin to the HIP movement, and removing the Romantic "patina" from interpretations of pre-Romantic repertoire it's a sort of "first principle" for this movement.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Brian on July 24, 2015, 10:47:21 AM
I've never seen anything to suggest that the Crawford way is a serious historical reconstruction of some pre romantic style.
"With regard to stylistic playing, I think players of the modern piano are heavily influenced by the 19th-century traditions that have been handed down from their teachers. The language of 18th- and early 19th-century music has its roots in the Baroque period, and legato, long-line phrasing is ineffective in conveying the expressive elements in the music of Mozart, for example.

"Because the instruments are so different in their physical and tonal characteristics, a player (again a player who is really listening to what he’s doing) will find that the two instruments lead one in quite different directions. Tempi may be different, the dynamic range is of course different, and perhaps most important, the seemingly sparse notation of Mozart’s music, for example, is actually very complete. Modern editions usually contain long phrase markings that have nothing to do with the spoken articulation that makes Mozart’s music come alive. The player must read and understand the original notation in order to make stylistic sense of this music. And it’s much easier to do this on an early piano than it is on a Steinway."

- Ms. Crawford, in an interview (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2015/May/Crawford_interview.htm)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Mandryka on July 24, 2015, 11:38:21 AM
"With regard to stylistic playing, I think players of the modern piano are heavily influenced by the 19th-century traditions that have been handed down from their teachers. The language of 18th- and early 19th-century music has its roots in the Baroque period, and legato, long-line phrasing is ineffective in conveying the expressive elements in the music of Mozart, for example.

"Because the instruments are so different in their physical and tonal characteristics, a player (again a player who is really listening to what he’s doing) will find that the two instruments lead one in quite different directions. Tempi may be different, the dynamic range is of course different, and perhaps most important, the seemingly sparse notation of Mozart’s music, for example, is actually very complete. Modern editions usually contain long phrase markings that have nothing to do with the spoken articulation that makes Mozart’s music come alive. The player must read and understand the original notation in order to make stylistic sense of this music. And it’s much easier to do this on an early piano than it is on a Steinway."

- Ms. Crawford, in an interview (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2015/May/Crawford_interview.htm)

Yes I'd seen those but kind of passed over them because they're about Mozart. The idea of speech like articulation, short cells, as far as I know it comes from a rhetorical understanding of some pieces of baroque music. A structure which follows a certain pattern of argument which the ancient Greeks codified.  I had no idea that the same sort of thinking was there in Mozart, I wish she's cite a source for that. She owes it to us to explain why "long-line phrasing is ineffective in conveying the expressive elements in the music."

I wish I'd never got into a discussion with Gordo about romanticism in Beethoven, I just don't understand it well enough to comment with any confidence.  As far as Penelope Crawford goes, she plays op 101/i pretty expressively, and the piano is colourful.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Brian on July 24, 2015, 11:43:49 AM
Yes I'd seen those but kind of passed over them because they're about Mozart.
She does talk about early vs. late Beethoven too, but the interview format was not such that we could really dive into every individual piece. I wish it were.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Mandryka on July 24, 2015, 11:54:34 AM
She does talk about early vs. late Beethoven too, but the interview format was not such that we could really dive into every individual piece. I wish it were.

I added some things to my post while you were typing that Brian!
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Brian on July 24, 2015, 11:59:01 AM
I added some things to my post while you were typing that Brian!
Oops!!

I didn't ask her about academic sources or teachings about period practice, but inferred from her answers that the resource she values most, when considering how to interpret a piece, is the instrument placed in front of her and patient study of what the instrument does best & how it feels under her hands.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Mandryka on July 24, 2015, 12:20:17 PM
Oops!!

I didn't ask her about academic sources or teachings about period practice, but inferred from her answers that the resource she values most, when considering how to interpret a piece, is the instrument placed in front of her and patient study of what the instrument does best & how it feels under her hands.

I got that impression too (I've read similar things from Ton Koopman)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on July 24, 2015, 03:44:35 PM
@ Mandryka, Brian and Gordo
Very interesting discussion here on Crawford.   
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Wakefield on July 25, 2015, 05:10:05 AM
Oops!!

I didn't ask her about academic sources or teachings about period practice, but inferred from her answers that the resource she values most, when considering how to interpret a piece, is the instrument placed in front of her and patient study of what the instrument does best & how it feels under her hands.

I hadn't read your interview with Crawford. It's excellent.

Your last reply recalled me an insightful response of the pianist and fortepianist Olga Tverskaya:

"My view is that the fortepiano is the only surviving witness of how Schubert's works actually sounded, and so it is the most reliable guide for my interpretations. By trusting the instrument entirely and never imposing upon it, I let it tell me which tempos and dynamics are most appropriate to the style of the piece I wish to play. With its enormous range of colours, its warm, singing, yet deep and powerful sound, the instrument itself gives vivid insight into the phrases, forms and contrasts as well as the atmospheres Schubert had in mind when composing. - - Because the instrument is so evocative, a strong sense of intimacy has grown up between me and the music Schubert wrote, to such an extent that I feel I am close to him, that he and I share feelings and thoughts with the listener."

(http://c3.cduniverse.ws/resized/250x500/music/224/1277224.jpg)

http://www.musicalpointers.co.uk/reviews/cddvd/pianists.htm#tv


Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Brian on September 22, 2015, 03:41:25 AM
Todd stumbled on this, cross-posting it here:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Q9mR3wAEL._SX425_.jpg)

(https://media1.jpc.de/image/w600/rear/0/0885470006833.jpg)

Bluthner piano 1856
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Wanderer on January 18, 2016, 01:10:09 AM
.



Que asked me a while back and now that the disc has arrived (just now in fact!) I can answer: Kuijken plays on a 1868 J.B. Streicher pianoforte (No.6680).
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Mandryka on January 19, 2016, 10:26:46 AM
.



Que asked me a while back and now that the disc has arrived (just now in fact!) I can answer: Kuijken plays on a 1868 J.B. Streicher pianoforte (No.6680).

Ah I thought it didn't sound the same as the piano he used for Schumann, which was (I have been told)  an 1850 streicher.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: kishnevi on August 18, 2016, 05:47:32 AM
Listening to this
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61EuH1UFpNL.jpg)
Piano Quintet in A "Trout" D 667
Sonata for Arpeggione and Piano in a minor D821
Adagio for Piano Trio in E Flat "Notturno" D897

This is a budget box, so no liner notes to explain the reasoning for the treatment of the fortepiano in the Sonata and Adagio.
Description of the fortepiano
Quote
Johann Nepomuk Troendlin,Leipzig
early 19th century (Viennese action)
restored by Jan van der Hemel, Antwerp, 1996
Sonata and Adagio played with the lid taken off,
but with a second soundboard
Tuned by Claire Chevallier
Anyone know why?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Jo498 on August 18, 2016, 09:00:15 AM
I have the original single issue of that disk and there are two commentary texts (Bylsma and Robbins Landon) but there is no mentioning of the differently prepared piano in them.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on October 27, 2016, 05:52:50 AM
I believe this is the third (and final?) disc in a, sort of, series. How are people finding it? How does the series (the trios) compare with Hugget's group or Atlantis? Any thoughts? A cursory listen to #3 leads me to believe Melnikov is a bit more lugubrious than Hugget - and less sharp angled. The mix is also less upfront. Comparing #1 on the new disc to Atlantis is a bit different too. Melnikov, Faust and Queyras hang together a bit more than Atlantis maybe. I love Crawford's sound but Mr. Schroder is not to everyone's taste. Seems like Melnikov and company are good when it comes to togetherness and they do create some nice drama without questionable intonation. Anyway, I'm enjoying it. I still wonder why more period groups don't tackle Dvorak's trio and piano quintet and quartet. 


Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: bigfan2710 on July 25, 2017, 12:48:27 PM
Browsing the Anima Eterna/Immerseel discography (http://animaeterna.be/discografie/?lang=en) is interesting - a lot of late 19C works covered. They tackle, amongst others, Tchaikovsky's 4th symphony; the Symphonie Fantastique (a quick google comes up with fairly negative reactions to this one); Carmina Burana (!); an album of Rimsky-Korsakov (Sheherazade) and Borodin - this one particularly interests me; an album of Ravel; Pictures at an Exhibition; a Poulenc CD; and one of Debussy. There's also a HIP Johann Strauss album! Does anyone have any of these and can offer opinions? On paper it sounds like plenty of interesting stuff.

By the way, I love Gardiner's Planets.

Must Highly recommend Anima Aterna.  I have a number of their recordings.  Uniformly good. In particular Tchaikovsky 4, Sheherazade, Pictures at an exhibition and my favourite, the Ravel Album.....it even got me listening to Bolero properly all the way through!!!!!
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on December 06, 2017, 05:34:53 AM
(https://i.scdn.co/image/b29db15b806955bac565d80bd4365052cc05f28a)
Enjoying this tonight. I'm not sure these musicians made a splash in any other repertoire...Landgraf in particular hasn't recorded much else? I love her sound.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on December 12, 2017, 02:07:06 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Vo9E75W8L._SR600%2C315_PIWhiteStrip%2CBottomLeft%2C0%2C35_PIAmznPrime%2CBottomLeft%2C0%2C-5_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg)
I just started listening to this but, so far, very lively (and beautiful sound design).
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: The One on December 12, 2017, 08:45:22 AM
I believe this is the third (and final?) disc in a, sort of, series. How are people finding it? How does the series (the trios) compare with Hugget's group or Atlantis? Any thoughts? A cursory listen to #3 leads me to believe Melnikov is a bit more lugubrious than Hugget - and less sharp angled. The mix is also less upfront. Comparing #1 on the new disc to Atlantis is a bit different too. Melnikov, Faust and Queyras hang together a bit more than Atlantis maybe. I love Crawford's sound but Mr. Schroder is not to everyone's taste. Seems like Melnikov and company are good when it comes to togetherness and they do create some nice drama without questionable intonation. Anyway, I'm enjoying it. I still wonder why more period groups don't tackle Dvorak's trio and piano quintet and quartet. 



I haven't enjoyed this much, maybe because of the bar set by the violin concerto. But the first time I've heard the violin concerto it was a true experience. Faust's even topped Tetzlaff's for me.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: The One on December 12, 2017, 08:48:26 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Vo9E75W8L._SR600%2C315_PIWhiteStrip%2CBottomLeft%2C0%2C35_PIAmznPrime%2CBottomLeft%2C0%2C-5_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg)
I just started listening to this but, so far, very lively and (beautiful sound design).
A copy of a 1830 Pleyel and a 1711 Stradivarius with gut strings for 1838 and 1843 sonata compositions. Lovely.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on December 20, 2017, 05:39:30 AM
Feeling romantic this evening and quite enjoying these dusty old pianos (Stern on an 1842 Pleyel piano):
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51YvzxeL2kL.jpg)
(https://www.chandos.net/artwork/DV4116.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Brian on January 03, 2018, 08:35:15 AM
Any good/recommmended HIP performances of the Grieg Lyric Pieces (or other Grieg on piano)? I know there is a CD on MDG with Heidi Kommerell.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: The One on January 03, 2018, 08:44:03 AM
Any good/recommmended HIP performances of the Grieg Lyric Pieces (or other Grieg on piano)? I know there is a CD on MDG with Heidi Kommerell.
There was a recording with Grieg's own piano. I don't think it could get more HIP than that  :laugh:

Chase the butterfly
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: The One on January 27, 2018, 05:52:52 AM
I have that Archibudelli disc as well - nice!

Some other (semi-)HIP Dvorák (don't have any of these):










Would love to get the Michiels, but it's way too pricey alas.

Now, where are you with HIP Dvorak recordings?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on January 27, 2018, 06:01:41 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/512Zo1PKcVL._SY300_.jpg)
(https://images.shazam.com/coverart/t56210523-b255704625_s400.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: The One on January 27, 2018, 06:17:33 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/512Zo1PKcVL._SY300_.jpg)
(https://images.shazam.com/coverart/t56210523-b255704625_s400.jpg)
which single recording would you recommend, milk
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on January 27, 2018, 03:52:57 PM
which single recording would you recommend, milk
I don't listen to a lot of romantic music these days. The Dumky Trio is very famous. I feel unqualified to say whether this period performance is up to snuff or not. However, of the two chamber recordings that I have on period instruments, I like the quintet offering because it also has Bagatelles Op. 47. That's a strange and very appealing piece of music which includes a harmonium.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: The One on January 29, 2018, 05:24:08 AM
Could you update the recent Dvorak PI recordings you enjoyed here, please?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: king ubu on January 30, 2018, 04:16:53 AM
Well, as I said privately a few days ago, I do like the Archibudelli disc:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51CX7EQYSGL.jpg)

Also Jan Michiels disc of piano music is pretty nice:

(https://img.discogs.com/VQ53FbvlO0M32G0FGq-Iv2a9mFs=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-2437851-1293043900.jpeg.jpg)

He's got a fine recent Dvorák/Janácek disc out on fuga libera (with, as far as Dvorák is concerned, mostly - or only, didn't double check - partial re-recordings), but that one uses a regular Steinway (D, I think? It's mentioned in the booklet).

I really enjoy Michiels' recordings (with and without Inge Spinette), but Dvorák's piano music is not exactly my favourite ... working on it though  :)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Mandryka on January 31, 2018, 10:51:31 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/pEpMzLG_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium)

Op 130/133 from the Mosaiques, The cavatina sounds less  sentimental than usual, less like an Edwardian gentleman crying into his sleeve. And the grosse fugue sounds more poised and less hectic and angry than usual. It's an interesting way of making 130/133 work,  but unlikely to please people with a romantic tendency, who presumably want max sentimentality and agression. But then they may not be able to get a coherent quartet.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: The One on February 14, 2018, 08:17:43 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51tM8WPhUUL._SS500.jpg)(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/images/records/artaf10180.jpg?1285153955)(https://imgur.com/rhRnuhY.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: San Antone on June 07, 2018, 04:26:33 PM
(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/t_900/4260052381731.jpg?1427294911)

Schubert, Chopin & Brahms: Late Piano Works
Maria Gabryś (fortepiano)

Good program by a pianist unfamiliar to me. 

Brahms: Klavierstücke (6), Op. 118
Chopin: Largo in E flat major, BI 109
Chopin: Mazurka No. 43 in G minor, Op. 67 No. 2
Chopin: Mazurka No. 45 in A minor, Op. 67 No. 4
Chopin: Mazurka No. 49 in F minor, Op. 68 No. 4
Schubert: Klavierstücke (3), D946

The acoustic takes some getting used to.  Not sure about the historical accuracy of playing Brahms and late Chopin on a fortepiano, but the instrument she uses has a bigger sound that I associate with a fortepiano.  I don't have access to the booklet, and don't know what instrument she is using.

Not bad, but certainly not a first choice, although it is very nice to have all these works on one recording.

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on June 07, 2018, 09:17:29 PM
Not sure about the historical accuracy of playing Brahms and late Chopin on a fortepiano, but the instrument she uses has a bigger sound that I associate with a fortepiano.  I don't have access to the booklet, and don't know what instrument she is using.

Not bad, but certainly not a first choice, although it is very nice to have all these works on one recording.

According to the net, it is a Blüthner grand from 1874....

Which is indeed no fortepiano at all, but an early piano(forte)... I think.

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: San Antone on June 07, 2018, 10:29:58 PM
According to the net, it is a Blüthner grand from 1874....

Which is indeed no fortepiano at all, but an early piano(forte)... I think.

Q

Thanks for doing my homework  ;)   so the cover art is misleading. 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on June 08, 2018, 11:23:09 PM
Thanks for doing my homework  ;)   so the cover art is misleading.

Very! I guess someone thought that any period instrument must be a "fortepiano"....

I dug a bit deeper:

Blüthner patent action

These are unique to Blüthner and date from about 1885 to 1915.These are the older ones dating from about 1880 to 1924. The action is simpler in design than the normal roller action found in nearly all other pianos. It has the advantage of being smoother, usually lighter. The action doesn’t repeat as fast as the roller action, but this is not noticeable unless playing very fast repetition


Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Brian on July 02, 2018, 04:50:49 AM
Next month Naxos will have an album of Schumann chamber music on period instruments, including many premiere HIP recordings. The ringleader, and author of a very interesting booklet essay, is Finnish usually-harpsichordist-this-time-pianist Aapo Häkkinen.

https://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.573589
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on July 02, 2018, 01:55:59 PM
Next month Naxos will have an album of Schumann chamber music on period instruments, including many premiere HIP recordings. The ringleader, and author of a very interesting booklet essay, is Finnish usually-harpsichordist-this-time-pianist Aapo Häkkinen.

https://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.573589
looks interesting.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 07, 2018, 02:55:33 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51tM8WPhUUL._SS500.jpg)(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/images/records/artaf10180.jpg?1285153955)(https://imgur.com/rhRnuhY.jpg)
Not often you see a Dvorak 9th with no coupling. How are these by the way? Are they using instruments from Dvorak's time?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Daverz on July 07, 2018, 03:50:17 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51tM8WPhUUL._SS500.jpg)(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/images/records/artaf10180.jpg?1285153955)(https://imgur.com/rhRnuhY.jpg)

The first two on are on Deezer (and I'm betting on Spotify, though I haven't checked).

https://www.deezer.com/album/15157523?utm_source=deezer&utm_content=album-15157523&utm_term=2140075808_1531010981&utm_medium=web
https://www.deezer.com/album/15377335?utm_source=deezer&utm_content=album-15377335&utm_term=2140075808_1531011006&utm_medium=web
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on December 26, 2018, 09:50:59 AM
A new HIP recording of Brahms' Requiem:


Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on December 31, 2018, 02:36:49 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41apZ8cr5OL.jpg) I believe what we have here is a period performance of Beethoven's violin concerto. I'm not knowledgeable enough of this genre to comment on how successful this is but I'm enjoying it anyhow.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on December 31, 2018, 02:48:50 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41apZ8cr5OL.jpg)
I believe what we have here is a period performance of Beethoven's violin concerto. I'm not knowledgeable enough of this genre to comment on how successful this is but I'm enjoying it anyhow.

Indeed!  :)
For any newcomer it will be hard to compete will Thomas Zehetmair, who kind of nailed the piece with Frans Brüggen... They later did the same with Mozart's concertos. Epic performances IMO.

Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Florestan on December 31, 2018, 10:51:57 AM
Indeed!  :)
For any newcomer it will be hard to compete will Thomas Zehetmair, who kind of nailed the piece with Frans Brüggen... They later did the same with Mozart's concertos. Epic performances IMO.

Q

Sorry to be a New Year's party spoiler but when it comes to nailing Beethoven's VC, there is absolutely no competition whatsoever to Bronislaw Huberman / George Szell / Vienna PO, rec. 1934. One doesn't get more period than that!  :laugh:
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on December 31, 2018, 10:54:32 AM
Indeed!  :)
For any newcomer it will be hard to compete will Thomas Zehetmair, who kind of nailed the piece with Frans Brüggen... They later did the same with Mozart's concertos. Epic performances IMO.

Q
That’ll go on my list for tomorrow then. Although, I do see that there are some good reviews of this one.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on December 31, 2018, 12:52:35 PM
Sorry to be a New Year's party spoiler but when it comes to nailing Beethoven's VC, there is absolutely no competition whatsoever to Bronislaw Huberman / George Szell / Vienna PO, rec. 1934. One doesn't get more period than that!  :laugh:

Very period indeed... and a personal favourite.  :D

Q

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Florestan on December 31, 2018, 01:08:13 PM
Very period indeed... and a personal favourite.  :D

Q

I knew it.   ;)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on December 31, 2018, 02:31:39 PM
The first two on are on Deezer (and I'm betting on Spotify, though I haven't checked).

https://www.deezer.com/album/15157523?utm_source=deezer&utm_content=album-15157523&utm_term=2140075808_1531010981&utm_medium=web
https://www.deezer.com/album/15377335?utm_source=deezer&utm_content=album-15377335&utm_term=2140075808_1531011006&utm_medium=web
They are all on Amazon Prime now last I checked.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: ShineyMcShineShine on April 04, 2019, 09:39:38 AM
This was included on BBC3's Record Review a few weeks ago:

Brahms: The Piano Quartets
Primrose Piano Quartet
Meridian CDE84650 (2 CDs)
http://www.meridian-records.co.uk/acatalog/CDE84650_Brahms_The_Piano_Quartets.html

(http://www.meridian-records.co.uk/index/image-13.png)
Recorded in the Ehrbar Saal, Vienna on authentic pianos of the period.

As a culmination of many years of research and in preparation for our recording of the Brahms piano quartets using period pianos and gut strings, we convened a four day symposium in Birmingham to workshop, debate and discuss the latest thinking in the field with Dr. Anna Scott, Claire Holden, Dr. Kate Bennett Wadsworth, Professor Ronald Woodley, Jung Yoon Cho and Job Ter Haar.

Pianist Dr. Anna Scott made a compelling case for allowing the evidence of how members of the Schumann-Brahms circle played in early recordings to “romanticise” our very conception of Brahms. Stretching and compressing pulse within an overall tempo and free expressive use of asynchronicity, arpeggiation, rhythmic alteration, agogically inflected dynamic shapes and rubato give her own performances a rich expressivity. She is also the living proof that such playing can work on the modern piano, although most keyboard players find it easier and more natural to adopt period practice on period pianos. During the symposium the Primrose used an 1850’s Wilhelm Wieck piano, having previously enjoyed access to an 1890’s Blüthner in Hampshire that was factory selected by Brahms for a student, as well as to an exceptional Erard in the former Finchcocks collection.

If pianists generally embrace the sheer beauty of early pianos, modern string players have issues with gut strings that include instability of tuning and lack of power. Fortunately these problems are mitigated by the recording process and the use of smaller pianos. Diferent types of gut ofer an opportunity to characterise diferent strings with diferent colours (just as an early piano makes no apology for having diferent colours in diferent registers). String players in the Primrose regularly use gut, and have been taught, like so many in our generation, by teachers with close and direct links back to Brahms. Discussion and experimentation with expressive slides (portamento), extreme (to modern ears) time taking and speeding up, varying colours with varied vibrato, bow speed, and bow pressure was informed by Claire Holden’s work on early recordings of the Vienna Philharmonic, which also revealed that orchestra’s ability to come in and out of pure ensemble in order to make part playing more transparent and lines freer and more expressive where appropriate. We also heard from Dr Kate Bennett Wadsworth about her preparations for her recording of the Brahms cello sonatas, using the Bärenreiter edition that she prepared with Professor Clive Brown, considering how the fingerings and bowings of contemporary cellists had interpretational implications. This informed our own work on editions, aided by observations from friends and students when we undertook additional workshops.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Mandryka on April 04, 2019, 10:27:27 AM
Pianist Dr. Anna Scott made a compelling case for allowing the evidence of how members of the Schumann-Brahms circle played in early recordings to “romanticise” our very conception of Brahms. Stretching and compressing pulse within an overall tempo and free expressive use of asynchronicity, arpeggiation, rhythmic alteration, agogically inflected dynamic shapes and rubato give her own performances a rich expressivity.

I'm having a problem making sense of this.

It  looks like Anna Scott's thesis is based on the performance style of people who'd studied with Clara Schumann.

https://challengingperformance.com/interviews-recordings/anna-scott/

Schumann's pupils include Fanny Davies, Ilona Eibenschutz, Adelina de Lara, Natalie Janotha, and Carl Friedberg.

Here's Fanny Davies playing Schumann, it does not seem specially romantic to me, on the contrary.  I can't find any recording of her playing Brahms

https://www.youtube.com/v/ntCkaMI8prY

Neither does this recording of Ilona Eibenschutz playing a Brahms ballade

https://www.youtube.com/v/5O34oONYGkU

Nor this recording of a Brahms intermezzo by Carl Friedberg

https://www.youtube.com/v/i4-oOizOgVU
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: ShineyMcShineShine on April 04, 2019, 01:59:55 PM
I've been looking into the Abegg Trio, which supposedly has made at least some HIP recordings, but according to the back covers, Zitterbart plays a Bosendorfer Imperial. Now, I've no idea what this means, but according to Wikipedia "Bösendorfer built the first Imperial in 1909". Anyone care to enlighten me?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: amw on April 04, 2019, 04:25:15 PM
Most of their recordings are on modern instruments, I think it’s only the Brahms trios on Tacet that use period ones
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: ShineyMcShineShine on April 04, 2019, 04:32:33 PM
Most of their recordings are on modern instruments, I think it’s only the Brahms trios on Tacet that use period ones

They use the Bosendorfer Imperial on the Brahms recordings, too.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: amw on April 04, 2019, 05:16:00 PM
Specifically these ones
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51yHhJ0Yb-L._SY355_.jpg)
(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/155/MI0001155550.jpg)
using an 1864 Streicher.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: ShineyMcShineShine on April 04, 2019, 07:15:11 PM
Ah, thanks. I didn't realize they changed horses in mid-stream. The first two volumes feature the Bosendorfer.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: ShineyMcShineShine on April 16, 2019, 09:33:26 PM
Brahms Cello Sonatas by Kate Bennett Wadsworth and Yi-heng Yang. Based on new Bärenreiter editions. According to the Gramophone review, "It’s not specified in the notes what instrument Wadsworth uses but her tone is reedy and at times almost gaunt. Yang plays a lovely 1875 Viennese Streicher piano."

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Wakefield on June 04, 2019, 07:37:42 AM
Just for the sake of writing something on this thread:



Here some valuable information about the instrument, the interpretation, and this series:

https://bit.ly/2WIGZHW

 :)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 04, 2019, 09:37:49 AM
Just for the sake of writing something on this thread:



Here some valuable information about the instrument, the interpretation, and this series:

https://bit.ly/2WIGZHW

 :)

I have both of the disks Schiff has released so far. They are awfully nice, the instrument is superb!

8)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Florestan on June 04, 2019, 10:58:15 AM
I have both of the disks Schiff has released so far. They are awfully nice, the instrument is superb!

8)

+ 1.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Ras on June 05, 2019, 05:34:44 AM
Just for the sake of writing something on this thread:



Here some valuable information about the instrument, the interpretation, and this series:

https://bit.ly/2WIGZHW

 :)

Interesting that Andras Schiff has decided to play Schubert on a  fortepiano made by Franz Brodmann in Vienna, around 1820. And he says: “It is to me ideally suited to Schubert’s keyboard works,” he has said. “There is something quintessentially Viennese in its timbre, its tender mellowness, its melancholic cantabilita.”

Because he wrote this in 1992 in the booklet for the original issues of his complete Decca recording of Schubert's piano sonatas (under the heading: "Playing Schubert's piano sonatas"):

Quote
Andras Schiff: Schubert's piano sonatas has luckily not yet been discovered by specialists playing copies of Graf fortepianos. His music is most sensitive to tonal quality, especially in soft and softest dynamics.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on June 05, 2019, 10:40:47 AM
Interesting that Andras Schiff has decided to play Schubert on a  fortepiano made by Franz Brodmann in Vienna, around 1820. And he says: “It is to me ideally suited to Schubert’s keyboard works,” he has said. “There is something quintessentially Viennese in its timbre, its tender mellowness, its melancholic cantabilita.”

Because he wrote this in 1992 in the booklet for the original issues of his complete Decca recording of Schubert's piano sonatas (under the heading: "Playing Schubert's piano sonatas"):

You've discovered that people's opinions can change with experience. In the U.S., refining ones views in response to experience is condemned as "flip-flopping." :)

I don't have much interest in what musicians say, only in the music they make.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: San Antone on June 05, 2019, 12:37:36 PM
I don't have much interest in what musicians say, only in the music they make.

Yeah, me too.  8) 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on June 05, 2019, 12:48:31 PM
Yeah, me too.  8)

I consider your posts to be a form of music.  ;D
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Wakefield on June 05, 2019, 06:33:06 PM
I don't have much interest in what musicians say, only in the music they make.

But if somebody –other than a musician, I mean– said something interesting, you'd be interested, I guess...
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Wakefield on June 05, 2019, 06:42:27 PM
...its melancholic cantabilita

Thanks for this, Ras. I had wished this word for years, but I didn't know that it existed: cantabilità. The property of being singable, cantabile... Beautiful.  :)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on June 06, 2019, 07:00:36 AM
But if somebody –other than a musician, I mean– said something interesting, you'd be interested, I guess...

:)

I should clarify, being a musician doesn't make what they say interesting. If they should say something interesting, all good.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Ras on June 07, 2019, 04:49:50 AM
Thanks for this, Ras. I had wished this word for years, but I didn't know that it existed: cantabilità. The property of being singable, cantabile... Beautiful.  :)

Thanks Gordo - But I'm afraid I can't take the honour for  cantabilità it was something Andras Schiff  himself came up with in a short ECM video interview which is on youtube. (I was quoting it from Presto's website.)
Just all of you watch the video go viral and
Quote
cantabilità
becoming part of everyday speech!!!  8)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Ras on June 07, 2019, 05:12:57 AM
You've discovered that people's opinions can change with experience. In the U.S., refining ones views in response to experience is condemned as "flip-flopping." :)

Yes, well it's good not to stick in the same old groove…

I forgot to explain what I thought was interesting about Andras Schiff's "flip-flopping" in regards to Schubert on fortepiano:

There is a sort of spirit of the times/zeitgeist thing going on with regards to the use  of period instruments and Schiff's changing opinions reflect it: Over the years the "HIPsters" have moved forwards through music history from Baroque to the Classical era and now gradually more and more Romanticism as well.

Speaking of my own tastes I have always felt that the Baroque music is best on period instruments (or at least with a HIP approach) (unless we are speaking of music for solo harpsichord which I prefer to hear on piano.)
Gradually as time has passed I have developed a taste for Haydn and Mozart on period instruments as well or played by HIPsters using modern instruments (I would count among those for example what I have heard so far of conductor Thomas Fey's Haydn symphonies).

But when it comes to the romantics I have always preferred good old fashioned romantic cream sauce - so not Gardiner's Schumann cycle no thanks -- I'd rather go with Wolfgang Sawallisch. But I'm trying to get into it and so far I like Gardiner's SDG recording of Brahms's first symphony.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Wakefield on June 07, 2019, 06:40:06 AM
Thanks Gordo - But I'm afraid I can't take the honour for  cantabilità it was something Andras Schiff  himself came up with in a short ECM video interview which is on youtube. (I was quoting it from Presto's website.)
Just all of you watch the video go viral and  becoming part of everyday speech!!!  8)

 ;D

Of course!!!

BTW, I think you made clear enough that you were quoting Schiff.  My acknowledgement was for sharing those reflections.  :)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Wakefield on June 07, 2019, 06:57:22 AM
:)

I should clarify, being a musician doesn't make what they say interesting. If they should say something interesting, all good.

Then we are in peace.  ;D :D

Anyway, over the years I have read a lot of booklets written by musicians interested in historically informed practice, and a vey high rate of them have been not just wonderfully informative, but thought-provoking material.  :)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Mandryka on June 07, 2019, 06:57:49 AM
I ordered this today, it's been around a while but I'd never heard of it. Anyway we shall see, it was very cheap

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61xpOwe36SL.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Jo498 on June 07, 2019, 07:22:35 AM
It's quite good; unfortunately these are two of the Beethoven quartets I don't much care for. There are two about equally good HIP of op.18 (not only #4) by the Smithsonian and the Turner Q, I think the latter also have an op.59/3. Not sure if there is another HIP op.59/3. There is at least one more HIP op.18 with the Mosaiques but I was not fond of the disc I have heard (it did not include #4 and I got rid of it years ago).
The instruments are more of a gimmick. As far as I understand they are not in very good shape and the ensemble would probably have played better on their own fiddles.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on June 07, 2019, 07:54:38 AM
Then we are in peace.  ;D :D

Anyway, over the years I have read a lot of booklets written by musicians interested in historically informed practice, and a vey high rate of them have been not just wonderfully informative, but thought-provoking material.  :)

Certainly I find that true of Harnoncourt.

I like practical talk from musicians. Angela Hewitt usually writes an essay explaining here choices in performances of the various pieces by Bach. It is super interesting to read that when listening to her recording, or other recordings of the works. Philosophical musings from musicians or composers are on par with philosophical musings from the barber, or postal delivery guy.  ;D
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Mandryka on June 07, 2019, 08:00:12 AM
It's quite good; unfortunately these are two of the Beethoven quartets I don't much care for. There are two about equally good HIP of op.18 (not only #4) by the Smithsonian and the Turner Q, I think the latter also have an op.59/3. Not sure if there is another HIP op.59/3. There is at least one more HIP op.18 with the Mosaiques but I was not fond of the disc I have heard (it did not include #4 and I got rid of it years ago).
The instruments are more of a gimmick. As far as I understand they are not in very good shape and the ensemble would probably have played better on their own fiddles.

No, well I'm not keen on the op59 but I thought I'd take a punt (I paid £3)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Jo498 on June 07, 2019, 08:20:55 AM
As I still have the disc I guess I also found it good enough too keep despite not being keen on the C major and already having two similarly good recordings of the c minor. I like the scherzando movement of the latter and the first movement of the former quite a bit, nevertheless I tend to think that the c minor is the weakest Beethoven quartet and the C major, especially the finale, is grotesquely overrated (I am afraid it is the most popular Beethoven quartet of all).

I have not checked if this has been discussed further above, but one great early period recording is with the late Jörg Demus and string players of Collegium Aureum: Trout quintet + Notturno for piano trio. It's in a "romantics" box by German harmonia mundi and maybe on a single disc from Japan. I was never a huge Trout fan and could not muster much enthusiasm for it but the rather serious Strub/Hansen you pointed me towards some time ago and the vigorous Demus/Coll. Aureum I got out as an in memoriam when he had passed away were really impressive and made me fond of the piece again. The Notturno is sublime anyway, not much help needed there.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: JBS on June 07, 2019, 08:30:47 AM
As I still have the disc I guess I also found it good enough too keep despite not being keen on the C major and already having two similarly good recordings of the c minor. I like the scherzando movement of the latter and the first movement of the former quite a bit, nevertheless I tend to think that the c minor is the weakest Beethoven quartet and the C major, especially the finale, is grotesquely overrated (I am afraid it is the most popular Beethoven quartet of all).

I have not checked if this has been discussed further above, but one great early period recording is with the late Jörg Demus and string players of Collegium Aureum: Trout quintet + Notturno for piano trio. It's in a "romantics" box by German harmonia mundi and maybe on a single disc from Japan. I was never a huge Trout fan and could not muster much enthusiasm for it but the rather serious Strub/Hansen you pointed me towards some time ago and the vigorous Demus/Coll. Aureum I got out as an in memoriam when he had passed away were really impressive and made me fond of the piece again. The Notturno is sublime anyway, not much help needed there.

AmazonUS has this one for about $40US
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51prVQL8NDL.jpg)

Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Jo498 on June 07, 2019, 09:32:33 AM
I wasn't aware of the older single issue
The better deal seems this box I have. All but about half of the Ameling Lieder are on period instruments. The Ameling Lieder are essential, the Pregardien and Schopper good to very good, the solo Schubert with Demus not as good as the trout but nice to have. I have not yet listened to the Freischütz.



Overall the Collegium Aureum recorded a lot from the mid 60s until the early/mid 80s. While quite a bit has been superseded by more recent recordings, they were often pioneering and often have a special charm. Lots are not on CD and many have never been on CD with the more interesting chamber items faring worse than the orchestral stuff. (I keep a few LPs even I cannot play them right now.) I have quite a bit of their Mozart serenades and mixed chamber music. There was a big cheap Mozart series around 1991 used items of which could still be found cheaply much later.
There is no orchestral Schubert, I think but they did the octet, string quintet and several quartets and trios in addition to the Trout. Of Beethoven (if we count him as romantic) there is the triple and the 4th piano concerto (Badura-Skoda, not Demus), the Missa Solemnis and the Eroica (I have only heard the concertos). Lots of Mozart, though, quite a bit of Haydn, several very good Bach sons. While I am not really familiar with them, I think most of their Bach/Handel/standard baroque has been superseded by other period recordings.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: JBS on June 07, 2019, 11:39:45 AM
I wasn't aware of the older single issue
The better deal seems this box I have. All but about half of the Ameling Lieder are on period instruments. The Ameling Lieder are essential, the Pregardien and Schopper good to very good, the solo Schubert with Demus not as good as the trout but nice to have. I have not yet listened to the Freischütz.



Overall the Collegium Aureum recorded a lot from the mid 60s until the early/mid 80s. While quite a bit has been superseded by more recent recordings, they were often pioneering and often have a special charm. Lots are not on CD and many have never been on CD with the more interesting chamber items faring worse than the orchestral stuff. (I keep a few LPs even I cannot play them right now.) I have quite a bit of their Mozart serenades and mixed chamber music. There was a big cheap Mozart series around 1991 used items of which could still be found cheaply much later.
There is no orchestral Schubert, I think but they did the octet, string quintet and several quartets and trios in addition to the Trout. Of Beethoven (if we count him as romantic) there is the triple and the 4th piano concerto (Badura-Skoda, not Demus), the Missa Solemnis and the Eroica (I have only heard the concertos). Lots of Mozart, though, quite a bit of Haydn, several very good Bach sons. While I am not really familiar with them, I think most of their Bach/Handel/standard baroque has been superseded by other period recordings.

Thanks, I just ordered it. Decision made easier by the fact my only recording of Frieschutz until now was the Keiberth.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Jo498 on June 07, 2019, 10:44:15 PM
I think the Weil Freischütz is more of a curiosity. They changed the dialogue mostly to a narrator as has been done with the Magic Flute and other pieces. (I fully understand that the dialogues in Singspiel and German opera often seems impossibly quaint or even embarrassing and big cuts are often in order but I still think it is needed for dramatic continuity)
But if you care for the Lieder included, these alone would easily make the box worth it although unlike the "Trout" they tend to be more available separately. I only remember that I got the box a few years ago because it was so cheap although I had already one of the Ameling and all of Pregardien's discs separately.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Que on July 29, 2019, 09:08:20 AM
Anyone heard this already?  :)


Q
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Wakefield on July 31, 2019, 06:55:16 AM
Anyone heard this already?  :)


Q

Yes, well played as expected, but I didn't get too much (any) emotional connection.

The sound quality is exceptional, but  microscopic with every Schayegh breath registered (even listened to through speakers).  :)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Mandryka on July 31, 2019, 11:36:29 PM
I thought the  Schayegh / Schultsz was very interesting and challenging and a great pleasure to hear. But que, there’s a lot of it on YouTube so you can suck it and see for yourself.

Here's what they have to say for themselves

Quote
Our present-day ears have become accustomed to the
fact that in Baroque music everything which is written down vertically does not necessarily sound in a
uniform, superimposed manner. However, at the latest starting from the Classical era, and especially in
Romantic music, a return to order can be welcomed,
one which is in no way “historical”. On the earliest
recordings this means that the performers do not
play together in an exact manner. That was certainly
part of the idea: a free and easy association with
tempo and notation was self-evident – anyone who
was incapable of doing this just wasn’t a proper musician! The fact that Brahms had instinctively incorporated this idea into his own thinking, and the point at
which following him sometimes proved difficult for
other, appear in many written statements. Allowing
one’s chamber music partner to develop without the need for intervention demands a great deal of
courage, practice, independence and tact. Drawing
close to this goal has been one of the great challenges
of this, our, version of the Brahms violin sonatas.
Neat – and thus inaudible –fingering is as unhistorical as a well-ordered interplay between the instruments. We modern violinists attempt to change position as discretely as possible because we feel the
sounds of sliding to be too affected, too Romantic.
And there’s the problem: portamento is Romantic and
forms part of the expressive repertoire of this era. If
one is going to take ownership of the violinist technique of the period, one has no alternative than to
make the change of position discernible. Indeed, the
bow must be held in a position that alters neither the
pressure nor the speed through a slur. At the same
time, one must let the fingers of the left hand rest as
much as possible on the strings being played, even
when changing position. The combination of constant bow contact in the right hand and finger pressure from the left necessarily entails a portamento, no
margin being left for concealing what is thought to be
undesirable. This is why the fingerings are chosen in
order to highlight the musical sense instead of serving
the needs of comfort. Even vibrato has always been
used with economy and in general is so faint that the
ear merely registers it as animating the sonority.
“Finger legato” is to the piano what the bow is to
the violin: the fingers are left in contact with the keys
until the very last moment in order to produce a continuous, uninterrupted sound. This makes the use of the right pedal unnecessary while maintaining a
transparent sound. Another characteristic of historical performance is of breaking chords. For one thing
this renders the sound smoother, for another it
encourages the independence of the different parts
and suggests a more generous sound around pianos
which do not sound so strong by nature.
We have been assisted enormously by having
available for our use a marvellous Streicher piano –
the same model as the one owned by Brahms – as well
as a copy of a Romantic violin, with three plain gut
strings and a single wound gut string. The bow is original, from the end of the nineteenth century, and relatively light for modern hands. The sound possibilities
which all this material has opened up for us have been
most inspiring and often innovative in the questions
of balance and playing technique.
Our meetings with Clive Brown and Neal Peres
da Costa, whose Bärenreiter edition of the Brahms
Sonatas provided an additional working basis for us,
have been stimulating, productive and encouraging.
Kai Köpp also gave us significant support in matters
of interpretation. Last, but not least, we wish to think
the Stiftung Basler Orchester-Gesellschaft for having
generously supported our work

Schayegh  did a recording of the Bach accomanpanied sonatas with a harpsichordist which was inspired by Mattheson, that's why I checked the Brahms. I'm glad I did. If more people played c18 and c19 music like that, I'd find the music of those two centuries more rewarding I'm sure.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Brian on August 01, 2019, 06:24:03 AM
But que, there’s a lot of it on YouTube so you can suck it and see for yourself.
???
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Mandryka on August 01, 2019, 06:28:07 AM
They’re the Wolfgang Rübsam of the Brahms violin sonatas.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Mandryka on August 01, 2019, 06:34:04 AM
Is this true?

Quote

On the earliest
recordings this means that the performers do not
play together in an exact manner. That was certainly
part of the idea: a free and easy association with
tempo and notation was self-evident – anyone who
was incapable of doing this just wasn’t a proper musician!
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Florestan on August 01, 2019, 09:34:19 AM
Is this true?

What's the context of this quote? Who said that and referring to what?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Mandryka on August 01, 2019, 10:36:50 AM
What's the context of this quote? Who said that and referring to what?

It's from Leila Schayegh's essay on interpreting the Brahms sonatas in the release we were discussing, it's taken from the bigger quote I posted.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Florestan on August 01, 2019, 10:38:16 AM
It's from Leila Schayegh's essay on interpreting the Brahms sonatas in the release we were discussing, it's taken from the bigger quote I posted.

Thanks. Will read that longer quote asap and comment upon it.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Mandryka on August 01, 2019, 10:30:38 PM
Another challenging comment from Schehnegh, this time about portamento

 
Quote
We modern violinists attempt to change posi- tion as discretely as possible because we feel the sounds of sliding to be too affected, too Romantic. And there’s the problem: portamento is Romantic and forms part of the expressive repertoire of this era. If one is going to take ownership of the violinist tech- nique of the period, one has no alternative than to make the change of position discernible. Indeed, the bow must be held in a position that alters neither the pressure nor the speed through a slur. At the same time, one must let the fingers of the left hand rest as much as possible on the strings being played, even when changing position. The combination of con- stant bow contact in the right hand and finger pres- sure from the left necessarily entails a portamento, no margin being left for concealing what is thought to be undesirable.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on August 25, 2019, 02:21:59 AM
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/BC7-gjejXNY/hqdefault.jpg)
I can't tell what's going on in this recording (on period instruments). Maybe I'm in a bad mood. This is recorded badly: too much reverberation or maybe they recorded this in a subway station. But it inspired me to go back and enjoy two period recordings of the cello works: Sergei Istomin and Viviana Sofronitsky's and Christian Poltera and Ronald Brautigam's. The Poltera/Brautigam is perhaps the more inspired. 
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Mandryka on September 13, 2019, 05:44:01 AM
(https://www.talkclassical.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=123330&d=1567368251&thumb=1)

Noone can say whether you'll like the voice or not, but the performance seems sufficiently original in the current context that it's well worth a listen I'd say.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on September 16, 2019, 04:18:18 AM
(https://www.talkclassical.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=123330&d=1567368251&thumb=1)

Noone can say whether you'll like the voice or not, but the performance seems sufficiently original in the current context that it's well worth a listen I'd say.
I should give that another listen. BTW: Is Brautigam the only one who recorded the complete "Songs Without Words" on period instruments?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: JBS on October 19, 2019, 06:43:43 AM
Posted this last night on the WAYLT2 thread

This landed today


The premise is that while he was writing his last works, Beethoven used a Broadwood to which some sort of apparatus was attached that allowed the composer to hear, in some degree, himself play the instrument. Beghin and his associates tried to recreate the apparatus (on which information is a bit sketchy), put it on a modern replica of the Broadwood, and record the result. I am not sure whether the result is meant to be what Beethoven might have heard, or what a listener in the room would hear. The CD comes in a little book with photos and essays, and directions to a website with videos of the sonatas being played, a full length documentary, and other goodies.   The booklet provides a password (individualized for each CD, I think) that allows access to all this. (The website is Insidethehearingmachine.com) Have not read the booklet or visited the website, so I don't know yet what Beghin's intentions were.

Without that background info, the recordings seem middle of the road, non virtuosic readings recorded reasonably close, but not too close on a modern fortepiano clone, although the upper registers may be a little more "tinkly" than usual.

Update for this thread:
After posting I read through the booklet, which clarifies that the sonics are meant to replicate what the pianist (a person with normal hearing, not a person with Beethoven's deafness) hears as he plays with the "hearing machine" in place.

I have yet to watch the videos or the other material at the website, but the booklet by itself is rather interesting.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Mandryka on October 19, 2019, 07:07:07 AM
I thought the “gothic” op 110/iii was a bit special. In fact there’s a few things in that recording which I think are interesting.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: San Antone on October 19, 2019, 09:04:40 AM
That Beghin Beethoven recording is not for me.  The sound of the piano is not something I wish to hear playing this music.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: amw on October 19, 2019, 11:12:07 AM
I wasn't a big fan of the ornamentation and found the interpretation somewhat pedestrian in other ways, if I recall correctly, with rubato and changes in tempo seemingly substituting for any real expression. I may listen again eventually to see if I was wrong.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on December 20, 2019, 01:15:59 AM
(https://www.wfmt.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/41719_cover-6c28281d-fe58-4b25-8e3e-36d568f5fdbb_r500x500.jpg)
I know of Giacometti but hadn't know of this ensemble before. Apparently they've done Beethoven and Mendelssohn trios too.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: vers la flamme on December 23, 2019, 03:22:45 AM
Any love for Tobias Koch? He is something of a Schumann specialist and has recorded a lot of Schumann's lesser known piano music on old pianos. I just picked up this one:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41DkO0HF0aL.jpg)

I have to say the piano is one of the best I've heard from this era, but I'm not a period instruments purist, nor do I like the sound of most fortepianos that I hear.

Moreover I am a big fan of Genuin's packaging here. There is a lot of information about the instrument used and the pieces performed. Also included are album leaves by Brahms, Theodor Kirchner, and one Woldemar Bargiel, whom I've never heard of.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Florestan on December 23, 2019, 03:30:18 AM
Any love for Tobias Koch? He is something of a Schumann specialist and has recorded a lot of Schumann's lesser known piano music on old pianos. I just picked up this one:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41DkO0HF0aL.jpg)

I have this and a few other Schumann discs of his and he's indeed very good.

Quote
one Woldemar Bargiel, whom I've never heard of.

Clara Wieck's half-brother.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on December 23, 2019, 03:38:39 AM
Any love for Tobias Koch? He is something of a Schumann specialist and has recorded a lot of Schumann's lesser known piano music on old pianos. I just picked up this one:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41DkO0HF0aL.jpg)

I have to say the piano is one of the best I've heard from this era, but I'm not a period instruments purist, nor do I like the sound of most fortepianos that I hear.

Moreover I am a big fan of Genuin's packaging here. There is a lot of information about the instrument used and the pieces performed. Also included are album leaves by Brahms, Theodor Kirchner, and one Woldemar Bargiel, whom I've never heard of.
His recording of Schumann's violin and keyboard, I believe the violinist's name is Landgraf, is one of my favorite recordings.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: vers la flamme on December 23, 2019, 04:09:07 AM
I have this and a few other Schumann discs of his and he's indeed very good.

Clara Wieck's half-brother.

Wow! Lot of composers in that family. I managed to get the disc for very cheap and I'm happy I did, I don't think it's something I would have sought out if it were at full price, but I'm tempted to seek out more of his work now.

@milk, that sounds great, I'll have to check it out. I have Isabelle Faust and Silke Avenhaus playing the violin sonatas and I'm happy with it, so the Koch/Landgraf will have to really bring something new to the table for me to take much interest in it.

edit: I see now that there is much more included than just the three violin sonatas here. So maybe it will be a worthwhile investment...
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Brian on August 23, 2020, 04:06:57 AM
One day only download sale (August 23)!

Liszt recital on Liszt's own Chickering piano, recorded at the Liszt Academy (https://www.eclassical.com/performers/achatz-dag/liszt-piano-music.html) for $3.58 US. Dag Achatz, BIS
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Brian on October 01, 2020, 04:50:29 AM
This just barely qualifies as part-HIP:

(https://eclassical.textalk.se/shop/17115/art15/h8309/5058309-origpic-fd092d.jpg)

Modern Steinway
Violin with three gut strings and one steel

Horns:
Scherzo & Sonata: Paxman triple horn, London c. 1970
Trio: Raoux-Labbaye natural horn, Paris c. 1871—76, with piston-valve section by William Brown. Built in France as a natural horn, it was imported to London where a detachable valve-block was added. In possession of the Brain family and used by kind permission of Tina Brain and the Royal Academy of Music.

Note from the performer:
"Why Brahms favoured the Waldhorn over the horn with valves is often misunderstood. He wrote that if ‘the wind player is not compelled by the stopped notes to play gently, then also the piano and violin are not obliged to conform to him. All the poetry is lost and the sound is coarse and repulsive from the very beginning.’ To modern ears, the defining characteristic of the natural horn is its hand-stopped notes, as opposed to the exclusively open tones of the modern horn. Yet in his letter Brahms is not insisting on the stopped sounds but rather on the horn playing softly (sanft) and the colleagues balancing down to match. Orchestral valve horns in use in Germany in the 1860s tended to be much heavier and louder than the Waldhorn. So no wonder Brahms was apprehensive about hearing his Trio performed on one of those. The French instrument I use is, by contrast, light in sound, and in design comes very close to the natural horn.

"This is the very same instrument that can be heard on Aubrey Brain’s seminal 1933 recording of the Trio with Adolf Busch and Rudolf Serkin. This horn connects to the sound-world of early recordings, helping to evoke a certain nostalgia and perhaps even a ‘romantic sonority’ for audiences today."
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on January 22, 2021, 06:00:03 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/412okJjHbPL._SX355_.jpg)

A romantic's take on Bach with some Chopin, Mozart and Beethoven too. The concept is that this is all done on Chopin's upright piano. Its's quite an interesting sounding thing, too. This isn't really like anything else I can think of. This is really feeling Bach in a new way. I know Bach has been recorded in a romantic fashion before. But this is special.  I can see myself listening to this a lot in the future.
ETA: in the B minor prelude , the piano almost sounds like an acoustic bass on the left hand. The harmonics of this instrument give everything a different effect than a modern piano or period harpsichord would. It’s haunting and engaging. I want more Bach on an instrument like this. I know maybe three or four recordings that do use a fortepiano. This is quite a different sounding instrument though.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Brian on January 22, 2021, 09:06:35 PM
Is that a new or recent release?
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on January 24, 2021, 06:51:25 AM
Is that a new or recent release?
I think it's a couple of years old. Maybe from 2017.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on March 02, 2021, 05:55:56 AM
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/t6VOMMYxaes/maxresdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: hvbias on March 21, 2021, 02:16:03 PM
Does anyone know if this Jorg Demus recording of Fantasie in C came out on CD? Or any other recommendations for period instrument performances? Thanks. 

(https://i.imgur.com/80p2Pce.jpg)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Jo498 on March 22, 2021, 12:20:14 AM
I cannot answer these questions, just point out that the Demus "Schumann Box" that was out on different labels (Nuova Era?) is all on modern instruments as far as I recall, so not an option to get that one. (Several Schubert recordings on old instruments appeared on deutsche harmonia mundi but I also do not remember any solo Schumann.)
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Mandryka on March 22, 2021, 12:50:08 AM
Does anyone know if this Jorg Demus recording of Fantasie in C came out on CD? Or any other recommendations for period instrument performances? Thanks. 

(https://i.imgur.com/80p2Pce.jpg)

I have a transfer, which I can let you have. I do not believe it has ever been commercially transferred.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: Brian on August 12, 2021, 09:13:25 AM
Chiaroscuro Quartet is recording Beethoven Op. 18 for BIS.
Title: Re: The Romantics in Period Performances
Post by: milk on September 12, 2021, 06:08:13 AM
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/59143ddee4fcb5711cebc63e/1617809146930-P6K22TQGMXTLSYGJPZLG/unnamed.jpg)
You can kind of get the picture from the cover; I don't have notes, just streaming. But maybe they got the actual setlist from this supposed gathering at Proust's crib. These musicians sport an Erard and a Stradivarius, some kind of famous one from a museum, respectively. BBC gives this a stingy 3 out of 5 stars for performance. Gramaphone gives it a generous not-to-be-missed review. I'm leaning towards gramaphone. The music is tres cool and it's shorter than a Proust novel, so there's that.