What are some good books on the subject, Gurn?
What to Listen For in Mozart
Hi Gurn, nice idea for a thread! :)
I was given this book for my birthday last summer, and I think it's a pretty good book for relative newcomers to classical era music (but specifically on Mozart).
What to Listen For in Mozart - by Robert Harris
Nice timing, Gurn. :) Right now, I'm reading this (http://www.naxos.com/naxosbooks/naxosbooks_classical.asp), so this thread and the book should complement each other. The chapters of the book are rather short, but I, a neophyte listener, find the text neither dry nor complex. I'm sure it'll be valuable to beginners.
I think it was M Forever who recommended The Classical Style (http://www.amazon.com/Classical-Style-Haydn-Mozart-Beethoven/dp/0393317129/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235324811&sr=8-1); but if I remember the reviews correctly, it probably would not be useful to me right now.
Gurn, I'm hoping there will be discussions on here too about other Classical Era composers in addition to "The Big Three". More than any other era, I find that the focus in the Classical Era is so narrowly centred around Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven.
Boccherini
I have gradually become a very big fan of Carl Stamitz; his "orchestral quartets" are marvelous works, much like energetic string-only serenades, and the cello concerti are meltingly beautiful. The whole Stamitz family was part of the "Mannheim" club that formed one of the other very big musical schools of the 18th century, one which I'm keen to learn more about.
My compliments to you, Gurn, for starting this excellent thread. I am not a big classical-era listener myself, but will be watching with avid interest. :)
Now there is someone I definitely need more of in my collection! And the French/English composer, George Onslow.
* Giovanni Paisiello (1741 - 1816)
After 15 years of listening to classical music, I've finally settled down to a favorite era. I have a lot of Baroque music that I truly enjoy
One of my first discoveries, was Paisiello, when I bought the soundtrack to Kubrick's Barry Lyndon. It was an excerpt from his Barber of Seville opera (not Rossini's ;) Kubrick Film soundtracks were my transition into classical music, and opened up that new world of intrigue to me! 0:)
Regarding the Mannheim style, I found an interesting quote from Mozart taken from a letter to his father. (I quote it from the first book I mentioned in my first post.)
You cannot imagine the glorious effect of a symphony with flutes, oboes and clarinets.
At a time when we take the things for granted, it's amazing to know that there was a period (when Mozart was still alive) when this was all new and revolutionary. I can't imagine listening to the late works of Mozart without some of these wonderful woodwinds.
In very curious to know, since I really enjoy Russian music, if there were any good Russian composers in the classical era (pre-Glinka)?
Congratulations, Gurn, for a very interesting new topic!
Just because I am an opera fan and - I love Stockhausen! - doesn't exclude me from responding. In my opera collection is Pierre le Grand by André Ernest Modeste Grétry, an opera about Peter the Great I enjoy very much.
[Mozart] (probably) never bothered to rewrite the Sinfonia Concertante for Winds to include a different solo part from the clarinet that it was written for in Paris.
But he did continue to use some Mannheim standard devices, like the "Mannheim Rocket" which the French called the premiére coup d'archet. It shows up in several of his later works, and still pleases today. :)8)
I thought that work had the 'spurious' tag attached to it. So, has it been decided (proved?) that it's Mozart's?
Yep. The only example I know of is from the third movement of K. 466. (And the other, non-Mozartian example is the opening of Beethoven's Op. 2 No. 2.) I'd appreciate it if you can provide some other examples (Mozartian or otherwise). Thanks.
Hi Gurn, nice idea for a thread! :)KammerNuss,
I was given this book for my birthday last summer, and I think it's a pretty good book for relative newcomers to classical era music (but specifically on Mozart).
What to Listen For in Mozart - by Robert Harris
Oh, there's little doubt that Mozart wrote an original SC when he was in Paris. According to the latest Köchel "Composed probably between Apr 5 and 20, 1778 in Paris; Mozart wrote Sinfonia concertante for Fl, Ob, Hn Bn for LeGros; never performed, and LeGros kept autograph.". The version that we hear today is for Clarinet, Oboe, Horn and Bassoon, and that is the one that (at least parts of) are spurious. And one of the main arguments against it is that he wouldn't have rewritten it for a clarinet in Salzburg, since there weren't any clarinet players there... My personal opinion is that the full truth of the matter will never be known. :-\
I can, with a little research to refresh my memory. I'm bad that way, and age hasn't helped. :) More later...
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At a time when we take the things for granted, it's amazing to know that there was a period (when Mozart was still alive) when this was all new and revolutionary. I can't imagine listening to the late works of Mozart without some of these wonderful woodwinds.
Not a problem, I can wait. :) And thanks for the clarification on the SC.
The flutes and oboes are always there AFAIK, but the concertos and symphonies with clarinets form a special subgroup in Mozarts later works.
Here are 2 quick ones: The opening of the 4th movement of the g minor symphony (K 550) and the beginning of the orchestral exposition in the 3rd movement of the sinfonia concertante for violin & viola. In that one, it is not right at beginning of the movement, but occurs when the orchestra enters tutti after the viola and flute parts. Also when that section is reprised. :)
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Yes, Mozart always used 2 flutes and/or 2 oboes in his earlier orchestral works. Also horns and bassoons. That's about it though. Note that he had 2 versions of several of his later symphonies, one with clarinets and one without. The Hogwood set has both versions. :)
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Thanks! I'm including the SC in playlist for tomorrow.
Thanks! I'm including the SC in playlist for tomorrow.
Ah, so that's why that set is so big! Also, I remember a radio announcer saying that the autograph(?) of one of the versions of the 40th (with or without clarinet, I don't remember) was owned by Brahms for sometime.
I don't know of any, but that means nothing. Russia imported their musicians from Italy, primarily. Paisiello and Cimarosa were two that spent time working for the Czar before lighting in Vienna. :)
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http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=177282
Cool thread, Gurn -- speaking from the 21st century though I does 8)
One of my first discoveries, was Paisiello, when I bought the soundtrack to Kubrick's Barry Lyndon. It was an excerpt from his Barber of Seville opera (not Rossini's ;) Kubrick Film soundtracks were my transition into classical music, and opened up that new world of intrigue to me! 0:)
In very curious to know, since I really enjoy Russian music, if there were any good Russian composers in the classical era (pre-Glinka)?
While Dmytro Bortniansky's operas and instrumental compositions are on par with those of the great classical composers, it is his sacred choral work that is performed most often today. This vast body of work remains central not only to understanding 18th century Russian sacred music, but also served as inspiration to his fellow Ukrainian composers in the 19th century.
Here's one I hadn't heard of - Yevstigney Fomin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yevstigney_Fomin). There's the vocal score of an opera of his at IMSLP - I have it downloading now!
Doing my daily GMG check imagine my surprise when I see a new thread from my old pal Gurn Blanston. Imagine also my surprise to learn that it's shot up to three pages in a day! :o
Great reading, Gurn! I'll make sure to drop by here often. ;)
Er... That is all! ;D
This disc is surprising and wonderful
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YuajtnKiL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
and there are other Khandoshkin discs out there which I haven't heard. This is solo violin music, fiery virtuoso stuff, but with plenty of poetry and arresting ideas too. Somehow you can tell that this is music from the edge of things, and that's not a bad thing. Definitely worth a punt - and it fills a gap which I didn't think could be filled. Khandoshkin's wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Khandoshkin)
Nice thread, Gurn. And your list of books is spot on. It should be pointed out that Rosen's The Classical Style is officially The Best Book On Music Ever. >:( $:) I've never read anything as consistently revealing...unless it be Rosen's The Romantic Generation. The guy is incredible.
Hi Gurn - just coming in for the evening and noticed your already 3-page thread! :o
As you likely know, this is my favorite period of music and really love the transitional years, so will be quite interested in joing in on the conversation and hopefully contributing some useful information - :)
Just for a starter consideration, this period saw a tremendous development of various instruments, such as the keyboards (e.g. harpsichords into the fortepianos) and woodwinds (such as flutes & clarinets); thus, this discussion will need to include preferences for performances of works on these various types of instruments.
Just today, I was listening to the 6-CD set of Ronald Brautigam performing the Mozart Piano Sonatas on a wonderful instrument (built by Paul McNulty in 1992 after one by Anton Walter, ca. 1795) - the sound and 'up front' presence of this piano is just superb.
So, I would encourage those participating in this thread to consider the changes that were occurring w/ the instruments of these times - great start, buddy! Dave :D
On the old forum, SonicMan and I started many threads on Classical Era composers. Some of these became very popular, a few didn't. In any case, the initial posts nearly always contained a brief biography and perhaps a few music recommendations to be getting on with. Rather than restart those threads, I thought to go back and copy and paste that original post so that the composers will be discussed in their context with each other. :)
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Edit - it does work, you can listen to the whole CD...
Boccherini's style is characterized by the typical Rococo charm, lightness, and optimism
......... - should Haydn be played w/ the size orchestra he was familiar w/ in his times, i.e. 18th century, and w/ the instruments of the times, esp. the woodwinds (including tunings, strings - gut, etc.) - don't think that Papa Joe would even understand his music being performed by a late Romantic orchestra approaching 100 members!
A few months ago, I was reading the book shown below The Birth of the Orchestra (subtitled 'History of an Institution, 1650-1815) - this is an in-depth analysis of orchestral development, the latter half during Haydn's times; to be honest this is really appropriate for a college textbook, so did skip over a lot of parts; but out of curiosity concerning the SIZE of orchestras back then, I did a brief compilation of the appendices concerning the size of orchestras during the periods of Haydn's composing; below is just a summary:Sorry, but can't get these titles & columns to 'line up' easily! :-\
Orchestra Sampling (yrs) Number Range Average
1754-1759 23 10-50 29
1773-1779 33 12-68 33
1791-1796 43 10-86 34
But the point is that during Haydn's times, orchestras likely averaged only 20-30 players (the larger ones in the ranges listed were operatic/theater groups); plus, the wind instruments were still in a stage of development and were wood back then; the keyboards were organ, harpsichord, or fortepianos. Of course, the string instruments were likely gut, and the mode of playing, tuning, etc. different from modern orchestras; I'm w/ Q, the orchestras used in Haydn's times were 'small' in comparison to our modern ones, the ratio & types of instruments (esp. the winds) were different, and the performance practices likely not the same. To me the Haydn Symphonies sound wonderful if well played regardless of the orchestra (and I have about half of his output by nearly a half dozen performers), but would be FUN to hear these as did Papa Joe - :D
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51hAAOVLkNL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg)
Thanks for that, Gurn. The following:
whilst undoubtedly true as a generalisation, is the sort of thing which, rightly or wrongly, puts many people off Boccherini, sadly - so I would point out that those looking for music with more troubled undertones will find them in Boccherini too. The Stabat Mater for solo soprano and strings, for example, (on Harmonia Mundi, coupled with a very dark quintet IIRC; also on other discs I haven't heard) is a beautiful work, melodically rich, highly expressive; elsewhere, there is plenty of chamber music with plenty going on below the surface.
Searching around, I also see that there's another Stabat Mater about which I'd forgotten. This disc looks well worth a punt (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=SACDA67108):
(http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/034571571089.png)
Two more Grétry for you to get acquainted with, Dear Freund Gurn:
Thanks, Karl, you were the 21st century exception I mentioned. :) maybe that will make you give us a post here and there, like on early Russians, maybe? :)
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The only pre-Glinka Russians I turn up offhand are Dmitri Bortnyansky, Maksim Berezovsky & Yevstigney Fomin, Gurn . . . .
Two more Grétry for you to get acquainted with, Dear Freund Gurn:
So famous did [Vanhal] become that he was probably the first musician to earn a living entirely from composing without any other appointment.
On the old forum, SonicMan and I started many threads on Classical Era composers. Some of these became very popular, a few didn't. In any case, the initial posts nearly always contained a brief biography and perhaps a few music recommendations to be getting on with. Rather than restart those threads, I thought to go back and copy and paste that original post so that the composers will be discussed in their context with each other. :)
And finally for tonight, one of my personal favorites. :)My favourite Krommer:
Franz Krommer (1759-1831)
Obviously this is very interesting. Big part of the Mozart story is that WAM was one of the first composers to strike out on his own.
My favourite Krommer:
Symphonies op. 40 & op. 102, Matthias Bamert / London Mozart Players
Well, of course that I hadn't noticed this thread before, dear Gurn! Otherwise there would be already some posts from this fellow classicist! ;)
On Russian music during classicism, there's not much that I can add to the remarks already done. Anyway, the most outstanding figure from this period is, no doubt, Bortniansky, whose religious music has a very powerful emotional content. His simultaneously Russian, religious and classical sound is quite impressive. His secular works are to me less impressive, but written very competently.
Other composers active in Russia during that period were Sarti and Martín y Soler; curiously, both of them were quoted by Mozart in the Tafelmusik in Don Giovanni.
A composer to consider, nevertheless, is Alexander Alyabiev, whose music, a very peculiar blend of Russian, German and Italian influences, is highly enjoyable (I would say he's the direct predecessor to Glinka). There is a recent CD (2006 or 2007) released by Fuga Libera, that shows his skills as instrumental composer (many opera overtures, a group of orchestral variations and even a Symphonic Picture).
Krommer/Kramár would deserve a decent post from my part, and as I'm quite sleepy right now, I guess I will leave it for tomorrow. I will add just one comment now, for the sake of intrigue: in my very humble opinion, his concerto for oboe op. 52 is the most beautiful composed for that instrument during the classical period. If it had been composed by Haydn or Mozart, it would be performed regularly in the standard repertoire.
I will try to complete your recommended discography, Gurn... ;)
My personal favorites of Krommer are the various wind & string 4tets and 5tets. I am particularly fond of this genre anyway (Mozart wrote several, as did Vanhal, Krommer, Reicha, Danzi and many others) and Krommer's are very nice indeed. :)
So a quick check of the available Krommer recordings shows there are 'partitas for winds'. Are these anywhere near the top of Krommer's output, so to speak?
And somebody has to bust in and ask questions considered not only controversial, but also out of the ordinary, questions from a non-musician, a simple lover of good music.
Here we go: Why do you insist on creating a special class for compositions created at a certain period of time? Can't you just talk about music composed in such and such a year, why does it have to be called 'classical', 'baroque', 'renaissance', etc. I am sure there are music lovers who have no idea what years are covered by the 'classical' period, or renaissance, - maybe people who don't even know what 'renaissance' means, - but they sure love to listen to Marin Marais and his bells without a clue as to who composed it and what period he belongs to, according to you anyhow!
Still talking to me? ???
Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on Today at 04:08:57
And somebody has to bust in and ask questions considered not only controversial, but also out of the ordinary, questions from a non-musician, a simple lover of good music.
Here we go: Why do you insist on creating a special class for compositions created at a certain period of time? Can't you just talk about music composed in such and such a year, why does it have to be called 'classical', 'baroque', 'renaissance', etc. I am sure there are music lovers who have no idea what years are covered by the 'classical' period, or renaissance, - maybe people who don't even know what 'renaissance' means, - but they sure love to listen to Marin Marais and his bells without a clue as to who composed it and what period he belongs to, according to you anyhow!
Still talking to me?
Gurn: Somebody has to congratulate you repeatedly to your super-successful new thread.
Congratulations, Gurn! :-*
And somebody has to bust in and ask questions considered not only controversial, but also out of the ordinary, questions from a non-musician, a simple lover of good music.
Here we go: Why do you insist on creating a special class for compositions created at a certain period of time? Can't you just talk about music composed in such and such a year, why does it have to be called 'classical', 'baroque', 'renaissance', etc. I am sure there are music lovers who have no idea what years are covered by the 'classical' period, or renaissance, - maybe people who don't even know what 'renaissance' means, - but they sure love to listen to Marin Marais and his bells without a clue as to who composed it and what period he belongs to, according to you anyhow!
So a quick check of the available Krommer recordings shows there are 'partitas for winds'. Are these anywhere near the top of Krommer's output, so to speak?
I came across a little curiosity in the Brilliant Classics Mozart Edition that I thought might interest you, Gurn. It's a fragmented, three-movement suite for keyboard in C Major, K. 399; in the recording in the set it's performed on harpsichord. I haven't really been able to find out much about the thing! Know anything? :)
I don't understand what your gripe is?
Who is griping? - Did you forget to add a smiley to your post? :) - I asked for information on an open forum/thread, in a civilly tone, and I received an answer in a civilly tone; a bit convoluted, but helpful, maybe even to the unwashed masses who are not graduate musicians, yet simply enjoy listening to other music besides the pop variety.
Thank you, Gurn :-*
Who is griping? - Did you forget to add a smiley to your post? :) - I asked for information on an open forum/thread, in a civilly tone, and I received an answer in a civilly tone; a bit convoluted, but helpful, maybe even to the unwashed masses who are not graduate musicians, yet simply enjoy listening to other music besides the pop variety.
Looking at the set, I was reminded of another composer whose music, when I first heard it, immediately reminded me of Mozart: Leopold Kozeluch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_Kozeluch). I have heard a couple of his symphonies, but nothing more. It appears that he was quite prolific and popular during his time.
Well, partitas are partitas. They are an evening's entertainment and make no pretense about being more than that. :)
So, that said, Krommer wrote a nice partita.... :)
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As it happens, I do really like wind music....
I think it was thanks to Harry that I came across this set (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Concerto%20K%F6ln%20Edition/hnum/6314224), and it's been on my wish-list ever since.
Just have a moment, so it'll have to be the short answer.(http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org/files/classicalmusicmayhem/smilies/notworthy.gif)
This piece is also called "Suite in the Style of Händel". It was composed in 1782, almost certainly at the request of Baron von Sweiten, who hosted Sunday afternoon study sessions of polyphonic music, and incidentally introduced Mozart to a lot of Bach and Händel. He was likely also responsible for those exercises, K 404a & 405 that incorporated Bach's fugues with Mozart's Preludes for them. :)
(http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org/files/classicalmusicmayhem/smilies/notworthy.gif)
You're a legend, Gurn!
I suspected it was some sort of reflection of his Baroque studies, especially given the Kochel number, which places it around that time. I think the piece is quite clever; it's interesting hearing Mozart on harpsichord. Those Prelude & Fugue arrangements are quite skillfully done as well.
Thanks for the info! ;)
Kozeluch wrote some very interesting works. I remember I bought one CD of his because I noticed it included a sinfonia concertante for mandolin, trumpet, piano, double-bass and orchestra. My immediate question was how could anyone manage to write coherently for so different instruments (I guess I don't know other concertante work in all classicism with such an extraordinary combination). I wondered about a possible solution most of all concerning the first movement, where a sonata/concerto form is supposed to happen. Kozeluch's solution was, to me, brilliant. He divided the instrumental forces in three: the orchestra (1); trumpet, mandolin and double-bass (2); and the piano (3). So, the first exposition - traditionally orchestral - was taken by the orchestra and the trumpet, mandolin and double-bass, while just in the second exposition - traditionally for the soloist(s) - the piano took the leading role. The further exchanges are all happy: Kozeluch keeps an impressive balance in a 15-minute movement, offering to the listener very happy ideas, all suitable to the nature of each of the participants (v. gr., martial calls from the trumpet, intimate passages from the mandolin). The exchanges increase as the end approaches, so a bit before the last cadential section there is a particularly enjoyable moment when the piano keeps a harmonical support for the dialogue of the other three soloists. The sound is typically classical, so it is not something that calls your attention at once; but when I realize the "effortless effort" that Kozeluch does with this formation, I cannot but admire such a natural effect. (That naturality, so appreciated during the classical era, is often disregarded in our days... unfortunately).
As it turns out, the first time I came across this composer was through a sinfonia concertante of his. And I think it could have been the one the four instruments you describe. (I have mentioned this set (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/Konzertante%20Sinfonien/hnum/7479810) while talking about the "discovery.") Now I'm eager to listen to it all over again.
As a continuation, below is a shorter list of composers in this category that have had 'separate' threads in our older GMG forum - just click on the names to the right of each composer, if interested; also, feel free to start/continue a new post in our present forum. :D
Abel, Carl Friedrich (1723 - 1787) Abel (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,13127.0.html)
Boccherini, Luigi (1743-1805) Boccherini (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,2311.0.html)
Cartellieri, Antonio (1772- 1807) Cartellieri (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,6051.0.html)
Cherubini, Luigi (1760 - 1842) Cherubini (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,10918.0.html)
Clementi, Muzio (1752 - 1832) Clementi (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,6437.0.html)
Dittersdorf, Carl Ditters von (1739 - 1799) Dittersdorf (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,2367.0.html)
Dussek, Jan Ladislav (1760 - 1812) Dussek (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,9360.0.html)
Field, John (1782- 1837) Field (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,10133.0.html)
Hasse, Johann (1699- 1783) Hasse (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,6135.0.html)
Haydn, Franz Joseph (1732 - 1809) Haydn (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,104.0.html)
Hoffmann, Leopold (1738 - 1793) Hoffmann (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,11384.0.html)
Holzbauer, Ignaz (1711- 1783) Holzbauer (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,13090.0.html)
Hummel, Johann (1778- 1837) Hummel (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,2740.0.html)
Kraus, Joseph Martin (1756 - 1792) Kraus (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,2329.0.html)
Krommer, Franz (1759 - 1831) Krommer (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,5132.0.html)
Locatelli, Pietro (1695- 1764) Locatelli (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,9994.0.html)
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus (1756 - 1791) Mozart (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,133.0.html)
Onslow, Georges (1785- 1853) Onslow (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,3046.0.html)
Pichl, Vaclav (1741- 1805) Pichl (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,4251.0.html)
Pleyel, Ignaz Joseph (1757 - 1831) Pleyel (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,2619.0.html)
Quantz, Johann Joachim (1697 - 1773) Quantz (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,9859.0.html)
Reicha, Anton (1770 - 1836) Reicha (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,6089.0.html)
Ries, Ferdinand (1784 - 1838) Ries (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,2678.0.html)
Rosetti, Antonio (1750- 1792) Rosetti (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,9304.0.html)
Salieri, Antonio (1750 - 1825) Salieri (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,2387.0.html)
Spohr, Louis (1784 - 1859) Spohr (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,8185.0.html)
Stamitz, Carl (1745 - 1801) Stamitz (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,5672.0.html)
Vanhal, Johann Baptist (1739 - 1813) Vanhal (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,2349.0.html)
Viotti, Giovanni Battista (1755 - 1824) Viotti (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,4293.0.html)
Well, a couple of pages back, I left a link to many of the composers under discussion in Gurn's new thread - these are all linked back to the old forum and seem to be functioning; most of these composers come from the later end of this Classic-Early Romantic era, but a similar list could likely be generated from the earlier end, i.e. Baroque-Early Classic. But for those interested - pick a name(s) - usually some historic/bio background and specific CD recommendations - :)
Good list, Dave. As I discovered the other night, going back and finding all those threads can be a time-consuming challenge. :)
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Yep, no need to re-duplicate our efforts & those of many others; plus, Sara's 'Composer Index' list is valuable for the 'current' forum - now, if we only had a similar list to the 'old' forum for the earlier 'transition' period - ;) ;D Dave
BTW, for those wanting more book recommendations, Mozart in Vienna, 1781-1791 (1986, then translated) by Volkmar Braunbehrens is quite good; obviously covers Wolfie's last 10 years and has plenty of discussion of Vienna of the times, Mozart's friends & fellow composers, and discounts a few myths about his last days.
In addition, I just read in the most recent issue of Fanfare a review of Mozart, Haydn and Early Beethoven: 1781-1802 (2008) by Daniel Heartz (professor emeritus, U. of CA @ Berkeley) - this seems to be part of a 'triology' of books, and likely the last one (he is 80 y/o now) - it is a 'massive' (800 pgs) work and not cheap (Norton); my wife is trying to get me an inter-library loan of his first book in this series Haydn, Mozart and the Viennese School: 1740-1780, published in 1995 and another 800 pg. tome (not sure if I'll make it through these books!) - will try - Dave :)
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/cd/8c/f48d9833e7a0b4aae7b63110._AA240_.L.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MrfSLSbrL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MNT1D1APL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg)
Yes, those are handy lists, but it helps to consolidate them in one place. I, for one (and I'm not alone! :D ) am too lazy to do too much searching. Whereas you are a model of researching. ;D
Books, yes. Braunbehrens' is a highly commendable book, not least because he makes a point of being a "mythbuster", something that is sorely needed for Mozart after the serious distortions of the 19th century. This is a good book.
Heartz is probably the archetype of critical research. His books are extremely well thought of at all levels. Your statement that they are pricey nails the problem nicely though. $80/book is a bit rich for my blood. And I have never seen them at a bargain price either, not even used. But I will own the trilogy one day, probably after the miraculous economic recovery that we are all waiting for... ;)
"Classic and Romantic Music" by Friedrich Blume ....................
Yes, all of those years in 'academic radiology' and numerous research projects - does take persistence! ;D Fortunately, I've 'slowed down' the last 10 yrs!
Heartz's second book in this triology - Music in European Capitals: The Galant Style, 1720-1780 (2003) - over a 1000 pgs! :o Hope that he uses a lot of pictures & musical scores?; but I'll do another borrow if I get through the first one! The final volume is just over $40 discounted on Amazon, still a hefty price.
Another Mozart book on my shelf is Mozart: The Early Years, 1756-1781 (2006) by Stanley Sadie - complements the previously mentioned one nicely and is of recent vintage (and affordable!) - :)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CB1Z2CKHL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51A4MSP1J9L._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg)
Braunbehrens' is a highly commendable book, not least because he makes a point of being a "mythbuster", something that is sorely needed for Mozart after the serious distortions of the 19th century.
I knew it! I knew Gurn was a secret Newman fan..........;D 0:)
Ah yes, now that's a point: it's when Newman ignores documentary evidence like this that he really comes unstuck. ;D
I noticed that in the Dusík/Dussek thread of the old forum there was no mention to the very impressive Concerto in B flat major for two pianos, op. 63. ...
I can recommend also to the admirers of beautiful harp playing a splendid CD ("Grands Desserts") of some of Dusík's works for that instrument played by Nasumi Nagasawa. ......
All of the additions below are excellent; CPO label doing well as usual; the Brilliant addition is a nice introduction, i.e. Piano Quintets by Dussek, Hummel, & Onslow - now after these additions, I've not acquired any of those HARP compositions - would like some recommendations, please, from all - :D
One bit of trivia about Dussek is that he invented the concept of the pianist sitting sideways to the audience so the soundboard would reflect the sound out into the crowd, and so that they could watch him play. I don't think anyone has played otherwise ever since. :)
I wonder which is the Piano Quintet included in that selection, SonicMan. I have a recording of such a work by Dusík, in F minor, op. 41, in a CD called "Chamber music for piano", ..........
For the harp works, the choice is Nagasawa...............
I will have a couple of hours free time before my flight tomorrow. Guess I will pop the Dussek sonata CD in for a spin. It must have been 6 or 7 years since I last played it. (I have played one of the harp CDs a couple of time in the mean time).
What sonatas are they, Paul? Just curious, always looking for ones I don't have, particularly if they are on fortepiano. :)
8)
----------------
Listening to:
Dussek Sonatas / Staier - Andreas Staier - Op 31 #2 Sonata in D for Fortepiano 3rd mvmt - Pastorale: Allegro non troppo
I will let you know when I get back from my trip! The CD is in my office. I will go to the office first before I go to the airport.
If I remembered correctly, it was probably a COLLINS CD. Was it Pizarro? I will find out tomorrow.
Very interesting, Gurn. I didn't know (or remember) that point. Alas, I'm afraid I will have to deny your last statement. I saw Mitsuko Uchida some months ago playing a magnificent KV 491 with her back towards the audience. ;)
The conventional interpretation at the time about Dussek's practice of playing with his side to the audience was that he thought he looked best that way. Apparently he had a very good looking profile. Drawings of him seems to suggest that he was not much to look at from the front but much much better from the side!
Yes, he was famous for his pretty-boy profile. I think the sound thing was a bonus that sold the deal to other pianists, even ones without a profile. BTW, Dussek was a compulsive eater, and the last few years of his life he didn't tour because he was too fat to get around. I bet that was a profile he didn't enjoy showing off. ..
Yep, I posted a number of photos of him (early & later in life) in the OP on the old forum thread - he did blow-up like a toad, maybe not quite Jabba the Hutt, but a resemblance, esp. in the jowls! ;D
Forgot to post the other Dussek addition to my collection - the one mentioned by Gurn w/ Staier on the fortepiano - need to do some re-listening to those discs along w/ Becker on a modern piano; as I remember Staier can get to be a little of a 'key banger' at times, but just different interpretations - BTW, the Trio 1790 uses a fortepiano in the Piano Trios; Dussek wrote a lot of these but a check on Amazon still shows just the one offering by this superb group! :)
(http://www.boxhillnorthfc.com.au/files/boxhillnorth/lookalikes/jabba.jpg) (http://pixhost.ws/avaxhome/d3/24/000a24d3_medium.jpeg)
Yes, if there is one thing to be said negatively about Staier, it is that he is a true Classical style keyboardist, which is to say, he articulates his notes ala Mozart. Dussek comes from that fractionally later period when legate e cantabile is required.
Outside of Beethoven, this is as good as it gets at the turn of the century.
As I haven't listened Staier's Dussek (shame on me... I've had the CD in my hands!), I cannot comment specifically on his playing, but I agree that a strict Mozartian articulation wouldn't fit Dussek too much.
For piano, I totally agree. Perhaps Clementi can be added to them, while I don't count Haydn, because he belongs to a previous generation. Other name to consider is Wölfl, but his importance is, in my opinion, inferior than Dussek's (but he has some remarkable works).
I have a disk of Wölfl sonatas and really, they are very good. He was once in a piano competition, pitted against Beethoven. He didn't win, but they came away quite good friends, which was not always the case with Beethoven. :D
You probably own Jon Nakamtsu's recording for Harmonia Mundi, which, if a bit mechanical, is very good and is a quite reliable sample of this composer. However, the most devoted person towards Wölfl seems to be Laure Colladant, who has recorded many of the piano sonatas (played on a pianoforte). I have most of her recordings: opp. 6, 15, 28 and 33. Very good music indeed.
I have some of his other chamber works. Of particular interest: the piano trios op. 23 (led also by Colladant), and the string quartets op. 4 (Authentic Quartet in Hungaroton). They are music of their time: there are no great innovations, but the music is magnificently crafted and always very inventive.
An "unexpected highlight" of Wölfl's music are his two symphonies. There is, to my knowledge, just one recording, released by the Russian label Caro Mitis and very well played by the Pratum Integrum Orchestra. They are certainly more conventional works than Beethoven's or Eberl's works of the same period, but very interesting works nonetheless. (The Andante of the G minor symphony is a memorable movement: simple and effective, its ideas are quite Mozartian, but their treatment is Haydnesque). This CD includes a "bonus": a D minor "duo" (sonata) for piano and cello, op. 31, that crowns the disc. The repertoire for piano and cello of the classical period is particularly scarce, so it's a very welcome item in any collection, but its interest is more than anecdotic: this work is beautiful from the beginning to the end, with a dazzling finale showing unusually evident syncopations in its A subject that can't be explained but by heavy folkloric influence. A hidden treasure.
You probably own Jon Nakamtsu's recording for Harmonia Mundi, which, if a bit mechanical, is very good and is a quite reliable sample of this composer. However, the most devoted person towards Wölfl seems to be Laure Colladant, who has recorded many of the piano sonatas (played on a pianoforte). I have most of her recordings: opp. 6, 15, 28 and 33. Very good music indeed.
Gabriel - the Dussek work on the Brilliant disc is indeed Op. 41 as you indicate above - however, I was curious about 'how many' Piano Quintets he composed (he wrote SO MUCH chamber music); in checking Wiki HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Ladislaus_Dussek), this single one is all I found listed (but may have missed others?).
Yes, those are the recordings that I own - but the ones by Colladant sound intriguing, just not sure 'how available' they maybe here in the USA, but will check! Thanks for the recommendation! :D
- Be adventurous. Listen to a disk of Vanhal's music alongside Haydn's. No harm comes from music that is off-the-beaten-path, honest! :)
If you wish to get into classical music, here are a few "listening tips":
- Start with famous works by famous composers. There are reasons they are famous. Use that to your advantage.
- Don't necessarily start with orchestral music. Solo keyboard and chamber music can be easier to get your mind around.
- Don't compare classical music with Baroque, Romantic or Modern. It's different. Judge it on its own merits.
- Be adventurous. Listen to a disk of Vanhal's music alongside Haydn's. No harm comes from music that is off-the-beaten-path, honest! :)
Excellent tips, Gurn. Here I add some others:
- Get at least a minimum acquaintance with the forms of music of the classical era, and most of all with the so-called sonata form. Many of the hidden delights of this music will suddenly jump in front of your eyes (or ears).
- Do not get discouraged by a certain "homogeneity" in classical music. Do not forget that classical composers had - consciously or unconsciously - the idea of being building an universal language, very differently from Baroque music whose national styles were differentiated.
- Benefit of the historical approach. Many of the main instrumental genres, as we know them now, were born during the classical period: string quartet, string quintet, keyboard trio, wind quintet, keyboard sonata, symphony. Investigate how their development came to such a successful end.
- Do not confound clarity with conformism. Some of the most daring innovators in the history of music can be found in the classical repertoire: for instance, C.P.E. Bach, F. J. Haydn, Rejcha and Beethoven.
I've read beginners guides that assert chamber music is the thornier listen and to go for the larger forces first. I'm not sure why.
I'm not sure, Dave, on what they base their logic. It is true, chamber music is rather more intricate. But you only have a few voices, 4 or 5 usually, and I found that I was able to distinguish them and follow what they were saying far more easily than I could (and still can) in an orchestral work. If you want to follow the cello's voice through a string quartet, it is a lot easier to do (for me, at least) than following the whole section of cellos in a symphony. Although what he has to say may be a bit more complicated... but then, that's the whole point of a string quartet, so you just have to go with that. :)
Must be an assumption that newbies are more used to symphonic music and would be scared away by a quartet. Perhaps chamber music also has a reputation as being stuffier.
I dunno, there's just something with large orchestral pieces that appeals so directly to our modern ears... Can't place my finger on it. Maybe it's because they're generally a composer's most thought-out and elaborate works? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that when people think "Classical" music they think "symphony?" Or maybe people nowadays are more familiar with orchestral music via movies, so they already feel somewhat familiar with it... ??? I started out what might be considered "textbook" style: Symphonies --> Concerti --> Chamber Music --> Dramatic/Choral works --> Opera --> Songs. To this day when I try out a new composer I - out of habit - try their orchestral pieces first.
I will collaborate with the series, Gurn, if you're not against. ;) I will remark personal favourites that, in my opinion, should be useful as "first introduction" to the composer.
A recommended list of works: Krommer/Kramář (1759-1831)
- Oboe concerto in F major, op. 37
- Symphony in D major, op. 40
- Oboe concerto in F major, op. 52
- Partita for winds in F major, op. 57
- Partita for winds in E flat major, op. 71
- Harmonie for winds in C major, op. 76
- Clarinet concerto in E minor, op. 86
- Concerto for two clarinets in E flat major, op. 91
- Flute quartet in D major, op. 93
- Clarinet quintet in B flat major, op. 95
- String trio in F major, op. 96
- Flute quintet in G major, op. 101
- Symphony in C minor, op. 102
Yes, Krommer wrote delightfully for wind instruments! This list considers - naturally - just recorded works and it could - naturally - be extended or modified by the discovery of other works.
Just acquired a Dussek disc recommended highly by another GMG member:
Grand Desserts - World of Jan Ladislav Dussek - the title & the cover art are completely unrevealing unfortunately, but a series of CDs devoted to this era and played on period instruments.
Basically, harp music of Dussek, both solo but most w/ fortepiano - performers are Masumi Nagasawa & Richard Egarr - Nagasawa plays a single-action original harp from 1815 & Egarr an original fortepiano from 1804; the sound the the harp is wonderful, much more delicate than a modern concert harp (but more forceful that a Celtic variety, that my wife plays) - Nagasawa has an excellent Website HERE (http://www.masuminagasawa.com/cdseries/page15/page15.html) which has plenty of information of these period harps and the 'gourmet' series of recordings she is doing - take a look! :D
P.S. Gurn Alert - think that this disc will be on your 'radar screen' (of course, if not already owned!) - ;) Dave
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/486786325_mznuU-M.jpg)
(http://www.masuminagasawa.com/cdseries/page15/files/masumirichard.jpg)
Since Jan Dussek was under discussion a few pages back in this thread, today I received a wonderful Harp & Fortepiano disc in the mail - quite interesting listening - posted first in the Dussek Tread, but thought that a repeat here would be of interest - this harpist is indeed special - check out her link below in the quote - :)
But he did continue to use some Mannheim standard devices, like the "Mannheim Rocket" which the French called the premiére coup d'archet. It shows up in several of his later works, and still pleases today. :)What's the "Mannheim rocket"? Is that when the orchestra seemingly from nowhere and unexpected builds towards a very loud crescendo?
8)
What's the "Mannheim rocket"? Is that when the orchestra seemingly from nowhere and unexpected builds towards a very loud crescendo?
I'm only on page two, but the "classical corner" is a great idea for a thread since so many interesting composers from this era are totally overshadowed by the holy trinity of Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven. Well done, Gurn.
Against? I'm delighted. I already see a few new (to me) works to go hunting for, and that's the point, after all. I will also add the Op 46 Bassoon Quartets (Bassoon and String Trio) to your list, since they are exceptionally nice, and good representatives of a particularly Classical genre.
A recommended list of works: MozartI might add to that list K. 427, the "Great Mass." ;)
The keyboard sonatas
The later violin sonatas
The 6 piano trios
The "Haydn" String Quartets
The serenades and divertimentos for winds
The last 10 Piano Concertos
The Violin Concertos
The Requiem
The last 6 symphonies
The 3 Da Ponti Operas and "The Magic Flute"
An opera recording I like is Jordi Savall's recording of "Una Cosa Rara" from Vicent Martin i Soler which was a very popular work at the time. Now it's best known because Mozart quotes one of it's tunes in the banquet scene at the end of Don Giovanni. But it's a lovely work in my opinion - well worth hearing.
(http://www.opera-collection.net/images/martinysolerv/cosarara.jpg)
Sorry for the big picture. I didn't find one of more appropriate dimensions.
An opera recording I like is Jordi Savall's recording of "Una Cosa Rara" from Vicent Martin i Soler which was a very popular work at the time. Now it's best known because Mozart quotes one of it's tunes in the banquet scene at the end of Don Giovanni. But it's a lovely work in my opinion - well worth hearing.
I will collaborate with the series, Gurn, if you're not against. ;) I will remark personal favourites that, in my opinion, should be useful as "first introduction" to the composer.
A recommended list of works: Krommer/Kramář (1759-1831)
- Oboe concerto in F major, op. 37
- Symphony in D major, op. 40
- Bassoon quartets in B flat major and E flat major, op. 46
- Oboe concerto in F major, op. 52
- Partita for winds in F major, op. 57
- Partita for winds in E flat major, op. 71
- Harmonie for winds in C major, op. 76
- Clarinet concerto in E minor, op. 86
- Concerto for two clarinets in E flat major, op. 91
- Flute quartet in D major, op. 93
- Clarinet quintet in B flat major, op. 95
- String trio in F major, op. 96
- Flute quintet in G major, op. 101
- Symphony in C minor, op. 102
Gabriel - I think that Gurn & I have found yet another 'soul mate' in this period of music! ;D
I have most of the works listed above - love the wind chamber works the best! Do not own any of the Symphonies - most of the CDs that I own are on the CPO and Naxos labels - will add the bassoon works & symphonies to my 'wish list' - Dave :D
I have that recording, but I haven't listened to it for a long time. I also have La Capricciosa Corretta (Naïve recording) by Martín y Soler. My general impression about them was that there was great music, but there was not enough "breath" to make it last for a long time, so I felt that it was too short. In general, complaining about a work for being "too short" should be almost a compliment. In this case, it is not. But perhaps if I listened it now, after some years, I could change my opinion. As I don't have the CD here in Paris, my curiosity will have to wait for a while. (But they are -undoubtedly- enjoyable works worth exploring).Is there a libretto (with English translation) included with that La Capricciosa Corretta recording?
Is there a libretto (with English translation) included with that La Capricciosa Corretta recording?
Absolutely.Thanks. :)
Q
Dave, this is the symphony disk that I have. As with all the disks in htis series, this is well-played with good SQ, and the works themselves are quite nice. You'll not be disappointed. :)
Gabriel - I think that Gurn & I have found yet another 'soul mate' in this period of music! ;D
Anyone else know any of this music?
His compositions include some half dozen other stage works, Singspiel, melodramas and a children's operetta, a quantity of church music and vocal compositions, keyboard sonatas and sonatinas and some thirty symphonies, ten harpsichord concertos and eleven violin concertos.
Georg Benda (1722-1795) - Keyboard Sonatas w/ Sylvia Georgieva on harpsichord - just received this 4-CD set of 17 keyboard sonatas (he wrote around 50 or so) composed from 1757 and onward - a Que recommendation!
Benda was part of a 'family' of musicians/composers of the same last name; his 'given' name is on the cover of the set shown below; short biography of him on the Naxos Site HERE (http://www.naxos.com/composerinfo/Georg_Benda/25980.htm); quoted immediately below is the last part of his bio summarizing his list of compositions; much needs to be rediscovered, re-published, and recorded - I have just one other disc, Symphonies on the Naxos label.
His keyboard works as evident by these recordings almost have a 'Janus' way about them, i.e. looking back to the late Baroque/Galant styles (and played on the harpsichord), but also anticipating the later part of the 18th century, kind of like CPE Bach into Mozart in style. Recently, I've acquired a lot of harpsichord music but have been careful in listening to the opinions of others here - not always my favorite instrument, but Georgieva plays these works on two different instruments just beautifully; the recorded sound is phenomenal (and much of the 'extra little noises' often heard on these older keyboard instruments is totally absent) - quite nice! :D
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/488431119_UYFFg-M.jpg) (http://www.christianbenda.com/heritage4.jpg)
Lovely thread. A big THANK YOU to Gurn and all other contributors.
Georg Benda (1722-1795) - Keyboard Sonatas w/ Sylvia Georgieva on harpsichord - just received this 4-CD set of 17 keyboard sonatas (he wrote around 50 or so) composed from 1757 and onward - a Que recommendation!
Benda was part of a 'family' of musicians/composers of the same last name; his 'given' name is on the cover of the set shown below; short biography of him on the Naxos Site HERE (http://www.naxos.com/composerinfo/Georg_Benda/25980.htm); quoted immediately below is the last part of his bio summarizing his list of compositions; much needs to be rediscovered, re-published, and recorded - I have just one other disc, Symphonies on the Naxos label.
His keyboard works as evident by these recordings almost have a 'Janus' way about them, i.e. looking back to the late Baroque/Galant styles (and played on the harpsichord), but also anticipating the later part of the 18th century, kind of like CPE Bach into Mozart in style. Recently, I've acquired a lot of harpsichord music but have been careful in listening to the opinions of others here - not always my favorite instrument, but Georgieva plays these works on two different instruments just beautifully; the recorded sound is phenomenal (and much of the 'extra little noises' often heard on these older keyboard instruments is totally absent) - quite nice! :D
Those recordings by Georgieva are really beautiful, Dave.
It's possible to hear a brief example on You Tube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knvj_pNsRpY
Those recordings by Georgieva are really beautiful, Dave.
Thanks much for this info, Dave. I've been looking for some Benda solo keyboard works for a couple of years now, and only have a few sonatinas (Op 5, IIRC, and lovely little things). Of course, I've been picky about the instrument, but then, a harpsichord is probably more authentic anyway. FYI, the Benda Family Musicians are still active today, with an unbroken family musical tradition stretching back over 250 years. Frankly, I'm impressed by that. :)
Hope you feel inspired to join us and let us know what you think of this period in music. :)Well, it was my first concious musical experience: "-Dad, what's that?!" It was mono, LvB 7, 3rd mvt, real loud. I was six.
I must admit that I haven't aquired very much outside the three greats
a CPE Bach disk (he's in, right?)
Georg Benda (1722-1795) - Keyboard Sonatas w/ Sylvia Georgieva on harpsichord - just received this 4-CD set of 17 keyboard sonatas (he wrote around 50 or so) composed from 1757 and onward
Dave, I was puzzled by squaring the number of 50 that you mentioned with the claim with this set as giving the "complete" sonatas. The answer after seem googling seems to be that he did write 17 (18) sonatas, all included in this set, but also 35 sonatinas! :) (What's the difference between these terms? Gurn?)
BTW a nice Georg Benda discography to be found HERE (http://www.newolde.com/benda_georg.htm).
Q
Glazunov?Didn't he excel in emtying bottles?
While we're on this topic, I'd like to get people's impressions of Spanish composer Juan Arriaga. Here's what I have of him...
Dave, I was puzzled by squaring the number of 50 that you mentioned with the claim with this set as giving the "complete" sonatas. The answer after seem googling seems to be that he did write 17 (18) sonatas, all included in this set, but also 35 sonatinas! :) (What's the difference between these terms? Gurn?)
BTW a nice Georg Benda discography to be found HERE (http://www.newolde.com/benda_georg.htm).
Dave, I was puzzled by squaring the number of 50 that you mentioned with the claim with this set as giving the "complete" sonatas. The answer after seem googling seems to be that he did write 17 (18) sonatas, all included in this set, but also 35 sonatinas! :) (What's the difference between these terms? Gurn?)
BTW a nice Georg Benda discography to be found HERE (http://www.newolde.com/benda_georg.htm).
Q
Well, thanks, Q, I used your handy little link to locate and purchase this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51dvvq2S71L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
It is very true that these were probably written especially for the harpsichord, but you know, I am a fortepiano man from the first, and especially with homophonic music. Can't beat Bach on a harpsichord, but... :)
Gurn - I would strongly encourage that BRO purchase (if still available) - I've never been a great harpsichord 'man' but these are quite enjoyable, and you get all of the Sonatas - now I don't need any more of the sonatas, but are there any offerings of the Sonatinas (and if so, are they worth owning, being likely written for 'beginners' maybe?) - Dave :D
However, one of my purchases is one of those Wölfl/Colladant disks that we discussed earlier, so that was a nice little acquisition.
Which one did you buy, Gurn?
Very interesting post, Gurn. I have often wondered about this... When do you stop using harpsichord and start using piano? The practice seems to be any "Classical" work, but - as you have aptly pointed out - this runs into problems. What about volume indications or the lack thereof? Take Haydn's keyboard concerto in D, H. 23:11 - Pinnock and Koopman both seem to be of the notion that this is a harpsichord piece. I assume this is do to a lack of crescendos/decrescendos and volume indications?
I'm also curious about Mozart's early piano concerti, 5-9: would these have been performed regularly on harpsichord during this time? I remember reading a commentary by Professor Zaslaw that said that No. 5 was designated 'For fortepiano or harpsichord.'
An interesting situation.
I have the recording of Mozart's Six German Dances K.507, with Staier and Schornsheim playing a Stein "harpsichord and fortepiano in one" from 1777 on Harmonia Mundi. It is of course a modern arrangement, but one could easily imagine a jolly Viennese chamber dance party hearing it.
I would say that #9 was certainly a fortepiano piece. I am not in a position to do any research right now, but IIRC he wrote this for a piano virtuoso (Mlle. Genamy) who was touring at the time. The earlier works including the #7 for 3 keyboards, are, AFAIK originally written for harpsichord.
As for Zaslaw's statement, it doesn't carry any weight at all, since 99% of all keyboard works at the time had that written on the front.
According to Geiringer, Haydn's D major concerto was almost certainly written for the piano, since the dynamic indications in the original manuscript would have been impossible to reproduce on a harpsichord. Any others before that were either written for the harpsichord or organ.
Great answer, Gurn! Are you sure you're not secretly a prominent Austrian musicologist??? ;)
Great answer, Gurn! Are you sure you're not secretly a prominent Austrian musicologist??? ;)I have wondered that same thing for some time now. ;D
Call him Gön 8)
Great answer, Gurn! Are you sure you're not secretly a prominent Austrian musicologist??? ;)
Particularly interesting regarding the Haydn concerto... I have only heard this performed on harpsichord. Do you happen to know of any recordings of it on fortepiano? Or maybe of Mozart's early concerti on harpsichord? Might be interesting! :)
Call him Gön 8)
...not heard that one either. My bad. My very, very bad... :'(
Don't be so hard on yourself - not even the great and mysterious Gurn can have heard every Haydn recording out there! ;D
No samples out there for Brautigam's, but Staier's has some up...
http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Concerti-per-il-clavicembalo/dp/B0011B6JAC/ref=dm_cd_album_lnk?ie=UTF8&qid=1236795322&sr=1-1
What's the proper keyboard instrument for classical sonatas?
Always a point of contention among period instrument enthusiasts. Just like with nearly everything else to do with music, there is no hard and fast date when a transition took place. Music that was unquestionably written for the fortepiano exists from as early as 1765. Boccherini (a string man, of all people!) was the first to publish accompanied sonatas that stated on the cover page "6 Sonatas for Fortepiano & Violin - Op V" in Paris in 1767. It goes without saying that he was trying to impress a lady (the dedicatee was a prominent fortepianist in the City). And also in Paris, Johann Eckard arrived a few years earlier (1761) as a fortepiano salesman for Steiner and wrote a series of sonatas for the fortepiano. However, that doesn't mean that the day of the clavicembalo (harpsichord) was over. Obviously, not everyone could afford to immediately throw out their old instruments and buy new. So in the interest of selling sheet music, publishers continued even into Beethoven's time to put on the front "For the Pianoforte or Harpsichord". However, it isn't as difficult as all that to tell what was what. A dead giveaway was the use of dynamic markings, especially crescendos and decrescendos, but also pp and fff and the like. Why a giveaway? Well, harpsichords couldn't follow those markings. They played in virtually the same dynamic all the time because they relied on plucking of the strings. It's true that different registers could produce different volume levels, but that doesn't help much with a big, arpeggiated crescendo! :)
It is thought that Mozart first encountered a fortepiano in <>1772, and probably had one in his hands by 1775. So that date is used (albeit tentatively) for Mozart's music, anyway. Any keyboard music post 1775 is probably piano music. Other composers are not so well documented, so it takes reading the original score (publishers added the markings later on, so only the original will do) to find the dynamics. A bit more difficult.
Oh, and let's not overlook the fact that many, many composers spent the long evenings in their rooms with the clavichord, and a lot of solo works are written just for it. If you haven't heard a clavichord, it's way past time... :)
8)
...this is a great download site I buy from them whenever they have what I am looking for... Hey, just sayin'... :)
Gurn,
I assume you are familiar with this series?
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I've been listening recently, these works are engaging, if not on the level of the very best. Listenin to music like this gives you an idea of what elements in Beethoven were truly revolutionary and what were in line with his contemporaries. Contrasting one of the presto finales of Beck with the finale of Beethoven's 7th is instructive.
Great post Gurn, the ambiguities in this topic could not be stated more precisely. ;)
PS, slightly off-topic, but I have Brautigam in Shostakovich's piano concertos, and he's superb in those.
--Bruce
Gurn - nice post above about keyboard instrumentation in this fascinating 18th century. Of course, Cristofori HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartolomeo_Cristofori) is credited w/ the invention of the piano, i.e. an instrument that could produce 'volume dynamics' unlike the harpsichord; this Italian instrument maker died in 1731, so the origins of his invention were in the early 18th century - thus, what is of real interest that no longer exists is the 'cornucopia' of keyboard instruments available to the composers of that century, and obviously the confusing issue for us now as to 'what' instrument the music was meant to played upon, if not one or several? ;)
Each of these keyboard instruments, i.e. harpsichords, fortepianos, clavichords, et al, have their unique features and the music written was likely meant to be played on one or the other types of keyboards; my problem has been in obtaining this music is often related to the instruments used, the specific performers/performances, and the engineering of the recordings - I used to not like a lot of harpsichord music, but recent purchases have changed my mind; thus, one has to explore these various options - in the early 'classic' period, the harpsichord might be the best choice, if played & recorded well; as the 18th century progressed, a choice between the fortepiano & earlier instruments becomes an option (again, a personal decision often), and then into the latter part of that century, the fortepiano into more modern pianos seems to be the better option.
Not making a lot of sense here, I guess, but the point is that this was a dynamic evolution of keyboard instruments in the 18th century, and that composers may have written their music for a specific type of instrument but w/ the hope for more dynamics and a 'future' for a different type of performance or interpretation - :)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NWK014X6L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/June07/Beck_7770332.jpg) (http://www.darkest-destruction.com/fussli-nightmare.jpg)
I've been listening recently, these works are engaging, ......
Great posts, thanks to everybody and particularly to Gurn. He seems to come directly from Clavierland! ;)
Mozart, WA (1756-1791) - Symphonies w/ Mackerras & the Prague Cham Orch on Telarc - released as a 10-CD box at a fabulous price - just arrived the other day and starting my listening experience; I had 3 previous CDs of these works, but this is my first 'complete' set of the Mozart Symphonies; do own a number of different conductors in the latter half of Mozart's output in this repertoire - in fact, love this guy in a variety of different approaches.
So, my reason for posting is not to start a discussion of Mozart 'Symphony Sets' (we already have these threads), but to discuss several issues of Mozart's output in this genre: 1) Authenticity, esp. of the early Symphonies, e.g. on the first disc of this set the No. 1 Symphony, likely authentic, was composed by Wolfie in London when in was 8 y/o! However, some of the later 'early' works were likely composed by others, including his father & Abel; 2) Sequence of these works - the numbers relative to the Symphonies was intermixed, but the Kochel numbers are in order; and 3) Performance - his first 'verified' symphony was written in 1764 and the last toward the end of his life a quater of century later - how should these works be performed? I like Mackerras' approach (why buy the box?), but of course there are so many other ways to perform these works. So, thus the questions - Dave :D
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Gurn, Nut-Job, and Dave,
Just added the Beck disc to my wish-list. As stated in the past, I buy a classical cd each month for my God children. A goal within this is to make sure that their library not only has the "war-horses", but also composers not always thought of by most. A variety if you will. So just added the Beck disc to the wish-list for next months purchase. Obviously, I will snag one also. ;)
Nut Job - looks like Gurn has already provided some intro material on Franz Beck (his dates relative to Haydn have always been intriguing, just 2 yrs off the birth date!); he is certainly worth exploring, and the CPO label has done a great job in recording his works - currently, I have the disc that you have shown, but have inserted 2 others on the CPO label that are worth a hearing, i.e. Op. 4, Nos. 1-3 Symphonies & the Op. 3, Nos. 3-5 Symphonies; of course, Naxos is also publishing some of his works - just have a single disc on that label so far!
Clementi, Muzio (1752-1832) - well an 'update' from way back on page 7 of this thread! :o
Yesterday's arrival in the mail - the 2nd Volume (3-CD set) of Mastroprimiano's perusal of Clementi's Keyboard Sonatas on the fortepiano; and about to be released is another 2-CD bargain set of Shelley - this will be Vol. 3 for him (and will bring his total to 6 discs!); not sure 'how long' the two will be releasing these sets but provides some delighful comparisons of the fortepiano vs. the modern instrument in these keyboard works.
Just finished the first disc of the set by Mastroprimiano, which mostly include the Op. 1 Six Sonatas dedicated to Peter Beckford, an interesting relationship that pretty much changed Clementi's life. Beckford was an Englishman who met the young keyboard artist in Rome in 1766 (two years earlier, Muzio at age 12 y/o had pretty much become a professional organist!); after making a 7-year contract w/ Clementi's father, Beckford took Muzio back w/ him to England, where he studied composition and keyboard technique, thus the reason for the dedication. When the contract expired, Clementi stayed in England, but of course travelled extensively on the continent - :)
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That Vol. 2 of Mastroprimiano has worked its way to near the top of my wish list....Good evening Gurn - just finished the 3rd CD of the 'new' Mastroprimiano release - just great (for some reason, Susan can't tolerate this instrument or the harpsichord - she's pretty much a 'professional' musician - is the issue her skill or possibly sex - I think women just have different 'ears' from men - OK, a side note of interest to me, and maybe others?).
... I haven't heard Shelley, and I do like his playing, but I don't have any internal dichotomy to resolve for myself over the supremacy of the fortepiano for Classical Era works, so I decided long ago that I would concentrate on them. It was a challenge in itself until Mastroprimiano came along! :)
Good evening Gurn - just finished the 3rd CD of the 'new' Mastroprimiano release - just great (for some reason, Susan can't tolerate this instrument or the harpsichord - she's pretty much a 'professional' musician - is the issue her skill or possibly sex - I think women just have different 'ears' from men - OK, a side note of interest to me, and maybe others?).
Brilliant Classics has a complete listing of the second volume HERE (http://music.brilliantclassics.com/epages/joan.storefront/49b9b45a000dbfa0271e52c5db1e06a9/Cartridge/sl126403e5/ProductInfo/93685), but that first disc is the Op. 1 'dedicated' sonatas - really historic! But, I must say that those Shelley recordings are special - might want to give one set @ least a try - not sure if they have appeared on BRO @ a reduced price yet? Dave :)
A question for Gurn...
I listened to Mozart's Violin Sonata K. 306 the other day and was surprised by how orchestral the second and third movements sounded (did you catch the 'cadenza' at the end of the third movement???). This immediately brought to mind the wonderful little gem K. Anh. 56, the fragmented Violin & Piano Concerto movement. As I'm sure you very well know, the recording on the Philips edition features the Wilby reconstruction: Wilby theorized that Mozart - unable to complete the concerto - rewrote it into the Violin Sonata K. 306. What do you think of this idea? I actually consider Wilby's work one of the more successful Mozart reconstruction attempts.
...As for K 300l_306, it is one of my favorite of the earlier sonatas. I have the Rivest/Breitman period instrument version and it flows like honey. :)
Thanks for the reply. That concerto gets a lot of playtime on my music player. Just great music.
Why did you have to say that??? Now I'll have to add it to The List! ;D
Thanks for the reply. That concerto gets a lot of playtime on my music player. Just great music.
Why did you have to say that??? Now I'll have to add it to The List! ;D
Sorin - Q & I have been recommending this duo CD set (shown below) for a while on this forum; just outstanding! Please acquire @ your earliest convenience! ;D Dave
I know some music from three of the composers listed: Kurpiński, Elsner and Lessel. In my very limited knowledge of Polish music from the classicism, I can recommend two works. First, Karol Kurpiński's overture to Zamek na Czorsztynie: it is a winner. Not a "great" work, but it is very beautifully scored and has some unforgettable ideas (I have two recordings of it: Spering and Borowicz). The other one is Franciszek Lessel's piano concerto in C major op. 14, a lyrical, delicate yet consistent work; in its simplicity, it has a Fieldian flavour, particularly in the undescribably beautiful Adagio. This movement alone would justify the purchase.
Fortunately for interested GMGers, the Borowicz recording I wrote about includes both recommended works from Lessel and Kurpiński. It brings also a couple more works, all highly enjoyable. Both works could be better recorded, but it is a competent recording nonetheless. (In fact, Kurpiński's overture by Spering is a better recording; he makes even the first chord meaningful, but you have to listen to it to understand what I mean. It is included in an Opus 111 CD called Chopin: the 1830 Warsaw concert).
And this must be the disc Gabriel mentioned (I think it's been released under a different cover or several different covers as well):
Listening to:
La Petite Bande / Kuijken - Hob 01 090 Symphony #90 in C 1st mvmt - Adagio - Allegro assai
Hi Maciek - you have overwhelmed this thread w/ a listing of Polish composers who many of us have not really heard about - not a complaint, but there are 'so many' other considerations from elsewhere in Europe of those times, so please can you recommend maybe 2-3 CDs that may be available for us to appreciate these composers - just a suggestion to one who would like to try several (but not ALL of the CDs shown) of these individuals - thanks, Dave :)
Operas - Finally just discovering these myself, so I can't give a proper description of any of them. On first listening though, "Armida", "La Fedelta Premiata" and "Orlando Paladino" are works to be reckoned with. I hope an opera fan (Gabriel?) will jump in here and fill this in a bit. :)
In any case, my personal opinion is that the first approach towards Haydn's secular vocal music shouldn't be through the operas, but three individual scenes: Arianna a Naxos, Hob. XXVIb:2, originally for piano and voice but there an orchestral version; Miseri noi, misera patria, Hob. XXIVa:7; and particularly the Scena di Berenice (Hob. XXIVa:10) which I would place with no doubt among the vocal masterpieces of the classical era.
Those scenes are fascinating - I have two of them on the following disc, and had assumed that they were taken from full operas, but they are works unto themselves?
Dave, I think the two "mixed" discs, with works by both composers, are the best place to "start". ;D
(http://merlin.pl/Chamber-Works-For-Strings_Pawel-Perlinski-Kwartet-Wilanow,images_big,8,AP0143.jpg) (http://merlin.pl/Chamber-Works-For-Strings_Pawel-Perlinski-Kwartet-Wilanow/browse/product/4,505832.html) (http://merlin.pl/Utwory-Instrumentalne_Pawel-Stolarczyk-Monika-Mych-Michal-Zambrzycki-Krzysztof,images_big,10,AP0055.jpg) (http://merlin.pl/Utwory-Instrumentalne_Pawel-Stolarczyk-Monika-Mych-Michal-Zambrzycki-Krzysztof/browse/product/4,289061.html)
How fitting that you were listening to Haydn whilst writing that! Great synopsis, Gurn, as usual! If I may add a comment or two of my own... ;D
With regards to the masses the late six are usually the most popular, but I think the best one came at No. 5 with his magnificent cantata-mass "Missa Sanctae Caeciliae." A magnificent work and one of my Top 5 favourite pieces in the genre.
With regards to dramatic works, don't miss Haydn's full-fledged revamping of his string quartet "Seven Last Words of Christ on the Cross" into an oratorio. This isn't just another arrangement, it's another piece entirely!
The concerti album by Pinnock you've mentioned comes with Haydn's Oboe Concerto in C. This is certainly the best oboe concerto I've heard by a mile and my favourite of Haydn's; one of the highlights of his concerto oeuvre.
All right, I'll be quiet now! 8)
There's not very much I can add to your appreciation, Gurn. In general, Haydn's operas are less outstanding than Mozart's, but there is great music nevertheless. I have always felt Il mondo della luna as a very sincere and beautiful work. The overture to L'isola disabitata is marvelous, while the rest of it is a bit less appealing. The closest to an introduction towards this music is unfortunately out of print: when Philips decided to release in CD the Dorati recordings, they also released a synopsis called "Opera Highlights" with excerpts from them.
In any case, my personal opinion is that the first approach towards Haydn's secular vocal music shouldn't be through the operas, but three individual scenes: Arianna a Naxos, Hob. XXVIb:2, originally for piano and voice but there an orchestral version; Miseri noi, misera patria, Hob. XXIVa:7; and particularly the Scena di Berenice (Hob. XXIVa:10) which I would place with no doubt among the vocal masterpieces of the classical era.
For a recording of all these three scene di concerto, there is a fine - and not expensive - performance by Hogwood and Auger. But if you wish to experience the amazing Scena di Berenice in all its splendour, go for the recording by Jacobs and Fink in Harmonia Mundi (coupled with symphonies 91 and 92). It is not just beautiful: it is unforgettable.
Dave, I think the two "mixed" discs, with works by both composers, are the best place to "start". ;D
(http://merlin.pl/Chamber-Works-For-Strings_Pawel-Perlinski-Kwartet-Wilanow,images_big,8,AP0143.jpg) (http://merlin.pl/Chamber-Works-For-Strings_Pawel-Perlinski-Kwartet-Wilanow/browse/product/4,505832.html) (http://merlin.pl/Utwory-Instrumentalne_Pawel-Stolarczyk-Monika-Mych-Michal-Zambrzycki-Krzysztof,images_big,10,AP0055.jpg) (http://merlin.pl/Utwory-Instrumentalne_Pawel-Stolarczyk-Monika-Mych-Michal-Zambrzycki-Krzysztof/browse/product/4,289061.html) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41DmLUpEFKL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Gurn - amazingly, we were looking @ the same MDG disc & typing at the same time! ;D
I would be interested to know your thoughts on whether the Classical and the Romantic were 2 different eras in music history, or whether they represent a spectrum of one style that stretched from the (putative) end of the Baroque through the advent of atonalism.
Gurn,
What a wonderful post you've dedicated to CPE Bach! I'm ashamed to say that I'm one of those people who have heard little of his music, but what I have heard I've liked greatly. I have the symphony and cello concerto set from the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment (Anner Bylsma on the cello) and adore it. I should probably go get some more some time! :)
2 different with some well crafted bridgework in between, but not always. ;D
...many of his best works are fantasias so they don't adhere to a particular form...
I would be interested to know your thoughts on whether the Classical and the Romantic were 2 different eras in music history, or whether they represent a spectrum of one style that stretched from the (putative) end of the Baroque through the advent of atonalism. Obviously I have an opinion, which I have expressed here a couple of times already, but I would like to hear what champions of both points of view have to say to maintain their points of view. Clearly we won't get far without a definition of terms, so if you are a believer in a Romantic Era, then it would be a good start to define precisely what it entails... :)
Thanks for your interest,
8)
C.P.E. Bach (courtesy of bach-cantatas.com)
Born: March 8, 1714 - Weimar, Thuringia, Germany
Died: December 14, 1788 - Hamburg, Germany
Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach was a German musician and composer, the second son of J.S. Bach and Maria Barbara Bach. He was a founder of the Classical style..................
........but a clavichord in action, Miklos Spanyi has done a great many of the sonatas and fantasias on BIS, and they are available for download (at 320kbps MP3) at eclassical.com. I might recommend the Württemberg Sonatas set as a first choice. Some others of his works which are more generally known are his cello concertos and sinfonias. Very recommendable. :)
Polyphonic (carried over from earlier times), but different instruments (at least you see the development of later instruments evolving through the period; viol family to violins, virginal to harpsichord etc.)...
But little in the way of dynamics.
It is fair to say that you can pick out a Bach or Händel work from an early Haydn one, yes?
Even Gabriel's assignment of a birthdate to a composer doesn't hold up (IMO) because you have composers early on who were born well back in the 18th century.
In fact, there isn't any difference that you can single out to say "this is Romantic music now". At various times throughout the period, call it neo-classical or neo-romantic or whatever, the trend has gone back and forth towards more unusual key changes, or more or less density, or whatever other "hallmark" of one or the other that you want to assign, but these are nothing more than fads of the times, and they swing back the other way just as often.
Anyway, I believe that there is no justification for breaking the Homophonic Era into two parts.
Great post, Gurn. Some comments on it:
I don't think the instrumental argumentation is really important for explaining the change of style.
This is indeed an important difference between baroque and classical.
Yes, but the comparison is not quite fair. If you compare early Haydn with Italian composers of the era, like Sammartini, there would be some more problems for drawing a line.
I already said that the utility of the rule I explained was merely instrumental and is not intended to be always right.
This argument is interesting, but in my opinion not completely accurate. In fact, harmonic evolution is not just the one of "unusual key changes", but also considers different tonal functions for the key changes. Subordinate sections are not mainly written in the dominant or sub-dominant, but in other keys related to the tonic. And this, Gurn, is not just theory, but sounds different to most listeners. You will tell me that it had begun in the classical era, and I will answer that it is true, but in romanticism it was much more evident than in classicism.
Unfortunately for your nomenclature, the Homophonic Era has a lot of polyphony inside. I would say that the strongest rejection of polyphony was during the period 1750-1775 for the style galant, but was never absolute. The reduction of strict counterpoint doesn't mean that there is no counterpoint. In fact, one of Chopin's most acid criticisms against Beethoven was that - sometimes - "he had turned his back towards the eternal principles". Those were the ones of counterpoint.
To end this post, already too long: as I explained, all these criticisms I develop "against" your position are not radical; it is just that I think that "eras" can qualify in different senses. As you talk about the "homophonic era" including classical and romantic, I can talk about the "tonal era" including those two plus baroque. These qualifications are not strictly correct, nor strictly incorrect, but they can be useful for our understanding of music.
But you won't find a true, strict fugue written in this time, for example. Even Beethoven's Große Fuge, is not the sort of fugue that a Baroque composer would have tossed out.
But I wonder at the accuracy of Chopin's statement. I guess the "sometimes" is a necessary qualifier, since Beethoven was a master of counterpoint when it suited him to be.
I don't want to interrupt the conversation with silliness, so I'll keep this short...
In tagging ripped CDs, especially of Haydn, my obsession with uniformity of units has been serverely tested at times. The biggest confusion is: why do some symphonies generally have all sources (printed media, online, CD booklets, etc) prefix the tempo marking of the final movement with "finale", eg "IV. Finale: Allegro", wheras the same sources are all in agreement on not adding this prefix to the final movements of certain other works, eg "IV. Presto". Also, in modern use, would using the finale term be redundant (as we know what is coming anyway) or is there a logic behind its application?
...I get the feeling I just asked something very dumb :P
Up until Beethoven, who wrote out everything down to the smallest detail...
I get the feeling I just asked something very dumb.
This remark reminds me on an evolution during the classical period that, as much as I can remember, has not been touched in previous posts: the role of improvisation. Until the end of mid-classical (so until 1805 or so) it was quite an important part of any perfomance, in vocal or in instrumental music. Late classical began with the trend of indicating more precisely - sometimes obsessively - dynamics, tempi and other musical aspects. There are many examples for this. Beethoven is quite evident, but, for example, the fioriture that Hummel wrote in his piano scores are a sign of the same movement: in other times, that ornamentation would have been left freely to the discretion and good taste of the performer.
On improvisation in itself as an independent artistic expression, I cannot comment too much, for I don't know accurately what happened after 1830. Before 1830, the most distinguished soloists, and I think mainly about pianists, would normally offer an improvisation during a concert: Mozart, Beethoven and Hummel were all very fond of this practice. But the fact that Chopin labeled as such written compositions can give a certain clue on a change in mentality. What to say nowadays: to my knowledge, solo performances almost never delight the audience with improvisation.
On the contrary, I think it's a very good question. Gurn exposed the most important points. It is not strange, in music before 1800 or so, to find movements without any tempo indication; if it was a concerto, and the middle movement had no precision on this point, you had to play it slowly. A finale was to be simply an allegro... but if it was following the typical Italian pattern, because, for example, a French influence on the work could make it be Tempo di menuetto. Anyway, these cases - to my experience - were generally described as that. I agree with Gurn that a professional musician or musicologist could help us a lot in this aspect.
No.42: Menuet. Allegretto
No.43: Menuetto
No.49: Menuet
No.77: Menuetto. Allegro
From what I gather, menuetto is the Italian form of the word, menuet the French - could this indicate a subtle difference in the way they should be interpreted?
Sorry hehe, I am just a control freak...
Menuet IS a menuet while minuetto is like saying "in the style of a minuet". The difference is subtle.
Finally, another consideration is the evolution of the 'sonata form' - in the Baroque Period, instrumental music revolved around suites w/ mutliple movements often based on 'dance' formats; Haydn & Mozart as the 'supreme' examples of their times wrote & evolved the 'sonata form' in which the previous binary forms and dance forms of works were put into the more standard (from our modern perspective) into the 3 or 4 movement pieces w/ the 'sonata form' being the standard - this seems to be of major importance in the mid- to later 18th century, which continued at least into the early compositions of Beethoven.
On improvisation in itself as an independent artistic expression, I cannot comment too much, for I don't know accurately what happened after 1830. Before 1830, the most distinguished soloists, and I think mainly about pianists, would normally offer an improvisation during a concert: Mozart, Beethoven and Hummel were all very fond of this practice. But the fact that Chopin labeled as such written compositions can give a certain clue on a change in mentality. What to say nowadays: to my knowledge, solo performances almost never delight the audience with improvisation.
On the subject of the minuet, or menuet, or the 'ole classical scherzo', as I like to call it. I seem to greatly prefer Haydn's to Mozart's in this regard. :-\
Menuet IS a menuet while minuetto is like saying "in the style of a minuet". The difference is subtle.
To an extent, I think this is as much continuum as any break from (say) JS Bach.
I suppose that part of the shading into the Romantic from the Classical, is the allied idea of making every note count, in a sense. A resistance to repeating oneself; not that Mozart or Haydn (any more than Vivaldi or Bach) were 'churning out copy', of course. But a sort of attitude adjustment over time.
I am confused by the qualification at least into the early compositions here; Beethoven employed sonata design practically to his last score. (To say nothing of Brahms and later . . . .) Or am I misreading you?
I just find that the transition between the so-called Classic & Romantic Eras less a change in 'how' the music was constructed, i.e. using 'sonata form' or a variant vs. more of an emphasis on emotional interpretations & inter-relationships w/ other arts of the times, e.g. literature.
Hello Karl - you know that I'm not in your professional 'league' here - what I meant is that Ludwig's early compositions were more attuned to those of Haydn & Mozart, using the 'sonata form' perfected arguably by those two composers; Beethoven after the Eroica Symphony in 1803 and beyond seemed to start evolving into a more Romantic style (whatever definition that may be - obviously, the 'emotional' interchanges between Gurn & Gabriel) - of course, he still used the 'sonata format' but you are a better interpreter of that issue that I can ever be - :-\
I just find that the transition between the so-called Classic & Romantic Eras less a change in 'how' the music was constructed, i.e. using 'sonata form' or a variant vs. more of an emphasis on emotional interpretations & inter-relationships w/ other arts of the times, e.g. literature.
Now, Karl, why are you 'picking' on me in this discussion? I'm just an old tenured Professor of Radiology? Thanks for the comments - Dave ;) :D
Anyway, Dave, it must be remembered that even if sonata form had an important role during classicism, it didn't represent the whole of music during this period. In larger instrumental works, it was generally used in the first movement, but in other movements it was not so often employed (excepting, perhaps, the cases of rondo-sonata form for the finales, but they are not general either).
Another contribution for the "emotion" of this thread... ;)
Pertinent to this post, a book & a composer from the transitional galant period:
Haydn, Mozart, and the Viennese School: 1740-1780 by Daniel Heartz (1995) - first volume of a triology! :D This is an inter-library load from the North Carolina School of the Arts (now part of the UNC state school system) in my home town; over 700+ pages - I'll not be reading this book 'word for word', the detail is just too much, but will be concentrating on some of the history and the major players in this 40 year period; but it is amazing 'how much' Heartz has gathered up in his research.
Today, read a long section of chapter 2 dedicated to the composer/teacher, Georg Christoph Wagenseil (1715-1777); his major influence occurred during the reign of Maria Theresa (Joseph II mother, i.e. the Emperor from 'Amadeus' fame), roughly 1740-60 (and later), but the guy apparently wrote a TON of music of all types, including much instrumental compositions, little of which seems to have been recorded - the only CD that I own is also shown below - Symphonies w/ Michi Gaigg & the L'Orfeo Barockorchester - there are 5 symphonies on the disc (numbered WV from 351 to 441; obviously much more in-between, and before/after) - these works are not 'heavy weights' like later Haydn & Mozart, but apparently Wagenseil was an important influence on Haydn & JC Bach (and likely many others) - would be very interested in some of this other works and recordings suggestions, although I don't believe a lot more exists! Now, before & after the pages in this book by Heartz, a dozen or more composers quite famous in Vienna at the times were listed (again, I skipped over these 'unknowns' to me) and I checked Amazon & Arkiv, virtually nothing - boy, this is one city in a half century period - I just cannot imagine the AMOUNT of music that has been lost - mind boggling! :o
Interesting post, Dave. I've wanted that book since I first saw it 5 or 6 years ago. My local library wasn't able to get a copy of it (but they aren't affiliated with a major university either). Darn the bad luck... >:(
I don't have any Wagenseil, not even as little as you do. But he features prominently in several books and essays I have on Haydn. As you note, he is a big early influence. Your mention of a lot of unknown music from this period in Vienna reminds me that in Zaslaw's "Mozart's Symphonies" book, he mentions that while looking at manuscripts in Vienna, there were in that one collection (Friends of Music) literally thousands of unknown manuscripts of just symphonies from the latter half of the 18th century. Surely a conservative estimate of 3% that had solid musical worth even would make for lots of new and interesting listening....
Gurn - believe that you would like that 'sole' Wagenseil disc that I own - but regarding his pretty much dominance as the court 'sweetheart' composer during the reign of Joesph II's Mother, Maria Theresa, he seems to have been almost completely forgotten! And that single disc that I own is quite a pleasant listen, and an instructive 'bridge' between the Baroque-Classical periods - boy, what a lost!
But, I have that book opened @ the moment and just to mention some of the composers around the time of Wagenseil (and again they must have written hundreds of compositions, both vocal, instrumental, and combined) - Georg Reutter (who recruited the young Joseph Haydn as a singer), Franz Tuma, Matthias Monn, Wenzel Birck, Joseph Ziegler, and Schloger, Starzer, Asplmayr - and even many others mentioned more briefly in these pages - again, I'll be unable to really read this DETAILED book thoroughly but the author has certainly done a superlative job!
I'll try to periodically 'report' the important details of those composers which have been recorded so we can at least hear their music; so far, Wagenseil is the best choice, so far through the second chapter - Dave :)
If you'd like, I can read it for you and send you a nice summary... ;D
I have maybe 1 work each from half of those guys (like Monn and Tuma, for example), but mostly not. Just names in books. :( I did discover that I have 1 work by Wagenseil, BTW. It is his trombone concerto, on a disk with several others from the 1760's (on Naxos, and I have it twice in fact, once on ... ummm, rats, can't remember. Hungaroton, I think). Anyway, I just listened to it again and it was as nice as I remembered. Anyway, not much from a guy who wrote so much, and who was such an influence on his peers. :-\
Well, as bolded above, the book is due back by mid-April! If I owned it, I'd probably read a chapter throughly a week at a time, but don't have that luxury - :-\ The next chapter is completely on Gluck - yes I know that he was important but may be a 'skip' for me, BUT, then comes 'early' Haydn - the detail in this book is just phenomenal (now I can relate to that as a medical educator), but this book is really for an advanced musical college course; however, OTOH, just may be right up your alley! ;) :D Dave
If you're going to skip Gluck, I would recommend just one DVD - Orfeo ed Euridice It is very easy to listen to and very enjoyable.
When I first learned that opera, I was playing it constantly because the music was so beautiful. Somehow, Janet Baker, a very famous and widely respected singer and the orchestra - I can't praise the performance enough. It was done during the Glyndebourne Festival. It uses the Glyndebourne festival with Raymond Leppard conducting the London Philharmonic. British mezzo-soprano, Janet Baker, chose to retire from the operatic stage singing the title role in Sir Peter Hall's acclaimed production of Orfeo ed Euridce.
TV Times said that the performance was one of her finest and most moving portrayals.
The Sunday Telegraph said it was a must for opera-goers.
Thank you for that, Anne. Although Dave was actually talking about skipping the chapter on Gluck in that book he got. :) I have read quite a bit about him myself, and I think his music is more interesting than HE is, if you take my meaning. That looks like a nice performance though, and could well end up on the shelf, even though I like more contemporary performances as a rule. ;)
Hi Anne & Gurn - yes, I was planning to just 'skim' through the Gluck chapter; I've read much on this composer & his role in Vienna in the 18th century in the past, but the Heartz book is just too long to 'delve over' every word - in fact, I did look at the Gluck chapter an hour ago - over 80 pages w/ 20+ devoted to Orfeo ed Euridice, so for those into this composer & this particular 'famous' work, almost a mini-book! BTW, the opening on 'Musical Life in Vienna' spends another 20+ pages on the 'theaters' in Vienna duing the time period covered. This book (and his other two are just as long, if not longer!) is a smörgåsbord, just so much that one can 'eat & digest' w/o collapsing! ;) ;D
P.S. Now onto the 'early' Haydn chapter later today! In fact, the box below just arrived yesterday, I'll start w/ the first disc! 8)
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/495227117_X7oSR-M.jpg)
I am aware that Gluck's reform operas had a great deal of influence for other opera composers; for instance, Berlioz, but was he influential on subsequent orchestral or instrumental writing? One of the 'reforms' he and some others introduced into opera, was the idea of the orchestration reflecting the moods and emotions within the opera.
In my mind it seems a short step from this kind of colouring of the full orchestral sound to what we think of as programme music. Did this development in opera lead to orchestral programme music, or am I pushing the idea too far?
Right now, although I can think of earlier pieces that evoke nature and set a mood; Icannot think of any attempt to tell a story, take a journey, using purely orchestral means?
Mike
Interesting thanks; I did wonder whether The Four Seasons is really programme music. Perhaps so. The Byrd is purely a solo instrumental piece for harpsichord. I wonder whether the 'colour' evokes and supports the narrative? I suspect that the story relies more within the form of the music.
The programme idea looks thin on the ground when compared to what the Romantic composers did with it.
Mike
Yes, The Four Seasons, I have had a look, I had forgotten how detailed the programme there was.
I think also that there is the matter of so much pre Romantic music being written to be background music, or at least often treated as such. Clearly a lot of Baroque was meant to be attended to, but a lot was salon music, or occasional music. When did we get to the point when the music was the 'occasion'; as against often accompaniment to the occasion?
Mike
Haydn, Mozart, & the Viennese School, 1740-1780 by Daniel Heartz (1995) - first part of a trilogy w/ this one going for 700+ pages - this well research & written tome is much beyond my meager musical abilities & endurance; there is plenty of historic facts (and correction of previously published mis-information), but much of the book concentrates on detailed analysis of the compositions, esp. those earlier ones by Haydn - now this is a book that I borrowed from the library for a month - if I had the time (and the musical knowledge to understand the author's comments), then I'd sit down w/ the music playing while reading the detailed explanations - this would take months, at least for me; bottom line - if you want to read this book, first take a look at it in the library - you may change your mind - ;) :D This is an extremely long and erudite presentation likely most useful for graduate music classes - I'm not planning on exploring the other two (and longer) tomes of this vast trilogy.
There's a new disc with 3 string quartets by Krommer due to be out in mid-April. It's by the Marcolini Quartet.
Does anyone have an opinion about Krommer's String Quartets? Are they worth repeated listenings? I've never heard them mentioned before. Unfortunately, I haven't found sound samples either...
There's a new disc with 3 string quartets by Krommer due to be out in mid-April. It's by the Marcolini Quartet........
Does anyone have an opinion about Krommer's String Quartets? Are they worth repeated listenings? I've never heard them mentioned before. Unfortunately, I haven't found sound samples either...
I saw it and I have already put it on my shopping cart. ;D Don't forget that Krommer was considered in his time as an authority in chamber music, and his string quartets were particularly appreciated. I'm really eager to this recording because, as far as I know, the only available recording of Krommer string quartets is one in Tudor with the op. 18. They are very well written and very enjoyable, but they are early works written before his best efforts. This new CD that you mention includes one quartet from op. 19, but also one from op. 74 and one from op. 103: op. 74 n. 3 is in D minor and op. 103 n. 3 is in A minor, so minor-mode fans will be pleased. ;)Thanks for your hint with JPC, I just listened to the samples: Great stuff, I instantly liked it, especially op. 74 & 103! The pre-order is already done!
You can listen to some samples in www.jpc.de. I will not comment too much on these short fragments, but judging grom the main subjects I can tell you that I will buy the CD.
Well, I have plenty of Krommer's music but the chamber quartet works are all w/ winds of different types - just delightful; but w/ Gabriel's comments, I will likely add this disc to my 'wish list'; I don't know this SQ group but would expect a good performance of some excellent music - :)I haven't heard of them either, but I found their website (http://www.marcolini-quartett.de , only in German) and they seem to be members from the Concerto Köln. They play on period instruments and seem already to have gathered good reviews for their work. Funnily, due to their liking of chocolates, they are named after Pierre Marcolini, a Belgian master "chocolatier". ;D
I haven't heard of them either, but I found their website (http://www.marcolini-quartett.de , only in German) and they seem to be members from the Concerto Köln. They play on period instruments and seem already to have gathered good reviews for their work. Funnily, due to their liking of chocolates, they are named after Pierre Marcolini, a Belgian master "chocolatier". ;D
Well, I have plenty of Krommer's music but the chamber quartet works are all w/ winds of different types - just delightful; but w/ Gabriel's comments, I will likely add this disc to my 'wish list'; I don't know this SQ group but would expect a good performance of some excellent music - :)
Thanks for your hint with JPC, I just listened to the samples: Great stuff, I instantly liked it, especially op. 74 & 103! The pre-order is already done!
Dave, I'm sure there is great chamber music by Krommer waiting to be recorded, specially in the string quartet area. I can't suggest enough the marvelous string trio op. 96. Krommer was a lot more than his stupendous works for wind instruments. :)
I guess I will have to buy the CD very quickly... otherwise I won't have any chance of getting it! ;DYeah, I can already see the headlines: "NEW KROMMER CD SOLD OUT ON DAY OF RELEASE - PEOPLE QUEUING IN FRONT OF CD STORES" ;D
I can't suggest enough the marvelous string trio op. 96. Krommer was a lot more than his stupendous works for wind instruments. :)Thanks, another disc in my shopping cart... :D
How about this disc?
It contains the Sinfonia concertante op. 70 for flute, clarinet, violin and orchestra and the Concertino op. 39 for various wind and string instruments. The samples sound interesting, especially the Sinfonia concertante.
I would like to mention the piano concertos composed by Hyacinthe Jadin (1776-1800), a French composer who died unfortunately too young. Jadin is a composer whose music sounds incredibly Mozartian: beautiful ideas, excellent developments and an unexplainable nostalgic feeling even in major mode works. I have listened to two of his three piano concertos, and both of them would surely deserve a better consideration within this repertoire. Alas, the name of Jadin is seldom known, even among music lovers, and his works are even less often played.
The second piano concerto, in D minor, was composed in 1796; it is a very tragical work, with a first movement whose main motive sounds as a cry of inner despair. The luminous, peaceful second subject provides a fascinating contrast. The piano writing is quite particular; in parts, it doesn't remember me of any other composer of this era (for instance, towards the end of the movement there is a very original sort of bird song). The textures are as pure as they can be, which, curiously, reinforces the sadness of the music.
The third piano concerto, in A major, composed in 1798, is quite a different work. A bold one. Jadin decided to write a concerto in two movements instead of the usual three, and the first one is admirable in its idea: after an orchestral exposition of about three minutes, the piano enters, not for reexposing the subjects as it should normally be, but for "singing" a rather short recitative whose delicacy is worthy of the greatest admiration. When the piano exposes the subjects after the recitative, the effect is impressive: they sound as if they had never been played, with a freshness and a beautiful simplicity rarely achieved even during classicism. The second movement, on the other hand, presents very different virtues: in a very disguised way, Jadin presents music of popular inspiration.
I know just one recording of these works, in the label Forlane, conducted by Gérard Streletski and played by Wen-Ying Tseng in a modern piano. Even if it is not an ideal recording, it is a very enjoyable one (I'm sure it would work better with a fortepiano, but to have at least one recording is good news).
It sounds very tempting. Perhaps next month! ;D
There's a new disc with 3 string quartets by Krommer due to be out in mid-April. It's by the Marcolini Quartet.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-J9tL8nYL._SS400_.jpg)
As an admirer of Krommer's music, I'm naturally tempted by the disc, but - how shall I put it - I'm not sure if the medium of the string quartet is the most suitable for the expression of his talents ;)
Does anyone have an opinion about Krommer's String Quartets? Are they worth repeated listenings? I've never heard them mentioned before. Unfortunately, I haven't found sound samples either...
Chris, Dave, & George - I've had that Nocturnes disc for years, and the performance is wonderful - would not mind having more of these works that obviously were an important influence for Chopin; Miceal O'Rourke seems to be 'specializing' in this composer - added below are two other CDs that I own of Field's music performed by O'Rourke - not sure 'how' available these are at the moment, but both can certainly be recommended.
Now, another interesting question is that John Field's dates (1782-1837) place him in that fascinating transitional period of late classical-early Romantic periods, and of course the evolution of the piano from the forte to the more 'modern' pianos - curious if Field's Nocturnes have been performed on the fortepiano - have not checked myself yet, but others may already know? Dave :D
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51K9DA9GHEL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZGEBFM8CL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
John Field (1782-1837) - Irish composer - check out BIO HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Field_(composer)) - important influence on Chopin - transitional Classical-Romantic composer - I left the thread below in the 'listening thread' but quickly became 'buried' - thought that a listing here might be of interest, not only for his piano works, but possibly a discussion of 'how to' perform his piano compositions, i.e. the appropriateness of using a fortepiano vs. a modern piano - the Nocturnes seem to be his most well know works, and those performed by O'Conor on Telarc are excellent, but other options may be considered - :D
Ah, one of my favorite "transitional" composers, Dave! I suppose it is true that, since he devised the form, his nocturnes are his premiere compositions, I grew to know Field due to his concerti, which I acquired the set of on Naxos (Frith) and then a lovely disk by Staier/Concerto Köln on fortepiano......................
Just checking on the Amazon Marketplace - Chandos has released a 4-CD set of the Field Piano Concerti w/ Miceal O'Rourke for just $25! Goin' to spin the one disc that I have already w/ this pianist performing two of these works, but may add the set to my 'to buy list'? Great review on MusicWeb HERE (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2009/Mar09/Field_chan10468x.htm) - :D
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2009/Mar09/Field_chan10468x.jpg)
Man, that box looks interesting. And for a reasonable price ($25 on the Marketplace). I may go that direction, although I sure wish O'Rourke played a fortepiano... :-\
I saw that you had featured his disk of the 4 sonatas as being one you have too. What's your take on it? I only have sonata #1 in Eb, which is a nice work indeed, and would like a set. That disk is very tempting, but I haven't heard much about it from anyone. :)
Yes, I'd loved to hear some of Field's works on the fortepiano, but he was just 18 y/o in 1800 when he composed the first 3 'piano sonatas' on this disc (the presumed 4th came later, first published in St. Petersburg) dedicated to his teacher, Muzio Clementi; these sonatas are short (12 to 15 1/2 minutes each) and in 2 movements w/o a slow one. I'm listening to that disc @ the moment as I type just to remind me - these works are just delightful harking back to Haydn & Clementi (in his younger days). O'Rourke plays w/ a deft touch, the sound of the piano is up front, and I have no problem w/ the playing on a modern piano (the recording was done in London, St. Jude's Church, in 1989; the piano used is not described in the liner notes). I would predict that you would enjoy this disc - plus, if you are about to make an upcoming BRO order, the CD is available THERE (http://www2.broinc.com/search.php?row=0&brocode=&stocknum=&submit=Find+Item&text=john+field&filter=all) at the moment for $5!
Dave :D
I was just listening to Mozart's Adagio and fugue K.546 performed by the Hagen Quartett (I love that band!), and was thinking two thoughts (not at the same time, I'm male):
1) Man, this is heavy! And dark!
2) Do we have examples of other composers in the classical era composing such/similar/comparable "baroque studies"?
Ah, wonderful piece, isn't it? Well, I wouldn't say no (never say never) but by and large, classical era composers avoided that sort of thing like the plague. Mozart is rather unique in that way because he was part of the Sunday Afternoon Salon held by Baron von Sweiten and became quite enamored of fugues. He wrote quite a few of them, and orchestrated several more (like 6 Bach fugues from the WTC arranged for string trio (K 404a) for which he wrote a prelude for each). I would like to hear if anyone knows of any NOT by Mozart. :)
8)
Emanuel Aloys Förster (1748-1823) arranged even more fugues from the WTC than Mozart, Gurn. There is a recording by the Emerson String Quartet.
Förster is a very unknown name from the classical era, but I know some excellent chamber music by him. I bought in an offer some years ago the double CD recorded by Les Adieux for NCA containing 4 string quintet works, which rank easily among the best of classicism and wouldn't be indifferent to anyone who likes Mozart's works in this area.
Ah, wonderful piece, isn't it? Well, I wouldn't say no (never say never) but by and large, classical era composers avoided that sort of thing like the plague. Mozart is rather unique in that way because he was part of the Sunday Afternoon Salon held by Baron von Sweiten and became quite enamored of fugues. He wrote quite a few of them, and orchestrated several more (like 6 Bach fugues from the WTC arranged for string trio (K 404a) for which he wrote a prelude for each). I would like to hear if anyone knows of any NOT by Mozart. :)The Hagens and L'Archibudelli both have recorded Mozart preludes and fugues; thise are in my modest vaults (or on my harddisks) somewhere.
8)
Gurn & Gabriel - just put in an order for that Field box of the orchestral piano works; listened to the single CD that I pictured previously the other night, and enjoyed the playing, the orchestra, and the sound (and @ a great price)!
Was also interested in the comments on Emanuel Aloys Förster (1748-1823) - thought that I had one disc of this composer's music, but no (checked my database and the composer I own is Josef Foerster!) - however, my first check was at BRO (http://www2.broinc.com/search.php?row=0&brocode=&stocknum=&submit=Find+Item&text=forster&filter=all), and to my surprise, they did have the 2-CD set of Förster's Quintets for $14 - so put in an order, and hope to enjoy on their arrival! Dave :D
Maybe I'm not a true classicist after all, this longing for fugues must be the engineer in me. Ah, the good clean maths of a fugue!
The Hagens and L'Archibudelli both have recorded Mozart preludes and fugues; thise are in my modest vaults (or on my harddisks) somewhere.
I have to check up on Förster.
Maybe I'm not a true classicist after all, this longing for fugues must be the engineer in me. Ah, the good clean maths of a fugue!
That is of course the case, Gurn. Just now however I cannot remember any fugue in Haydn's masses, but that could be down to the time of day (or night).
Gabriel, coud you recommend a Rejcha disk or two?
That is of course the case, Gurn. Just now however I cannot remember any fugue in Haydn's masses, but that could be down to the time of day (or night).
Gabriel, coud you recommend a Rejcha disk or two?
In fact, I've been about thinking of a "Rejcha's greatest hits" post for some weeks, but I've told myself that I would like to make a careful selection out of the 25 wind quintets before I post it. There is Rejcha for all tastes.
If you are fond of fugues, the normal suggestion would be the 36 fugues for piano op. 36. The only complete set now available is played on fortepiano by Jaroslav Tuma (it is a very good set, but if you dislike the sound you could have some trouble). But consider that Beethoven, when he knew Rejcha's op. 36, exclaimed that "these were no longer fugues". As Reicha was really fond of experimentation, it isn't surprising at all!
For formal experimentation, an interesting set are the six Flute Quartets op. 98. Phrasing, rhythm, harmony, counterpoint, nothing escapes from Rejcha's sharp eye: this is remarkable music. They have been all recorded, but in two separate sets by two ensembles (1-3 led by Konrad Hünteler, and 4-6 by Aurèle Nicolet: Nicolet's set is erroneously numbered as 1-3).
There is a lot more (even in his smaller works Rejcha exposes all kinds of surprises), but I would like to keep it for a better synthesis. Of course the natural choice for approaching Rejcha's compositions is the magnificent set of wind quintets, but this is another story... and a very long one indeed!
I will try to post my "greatest hits" selection as soon as possible, so it might help to introduce who is in my humble opinion one of the greatest geniuses of this era.
CPO is offering a 10-CD box of these wind works performed by the Albert Schweitzer Quintet - I don't know this group but the Amazon Marketplace price is $75; so, any comments on this offering (or possibly other 'complete' sets)? Thanks all - Dave :)
Very interesting ideas, Gurn.
I was thinking about something probably complementary with your view: The birth of the Conservatory after the French Revolution enabled to have many musicians (number) trained in the same principles (quality). The same lesson for many people in a public institution is to me a step towards a certain standardization of music.
This is perceptible in the instruments too: for instance, to mention just one case, the piano(forte) replaced to a great variety of baroque keyboards. In this way the "instrumentarium" begins a clear process of reduction (number) and "regularization" (quality), compared with precedent times.
... but I can be wrong.
Thanks again for educational posts par excellense.
I shall prowl the Norwegian library system for Rejcha.
(The Hyperion double disk is of course only available as ridiculous mp3 at a ridiculous price now. No go.)
Great article, Gön! ;D I may reference it at some point. Great cliffhanger, too - I'll be waiting for Zweiter Teil!
And these people were good enough and wealthy enough to commission works from the finest composers of the day for their own use. They played at salons that they or their friends held regularly, and in the case of the ladies, they played for prospective suitors, often with the suitor himself playing accompaniment on the violin or cello or whatever instrument he played. Thus, sonatas were written for keyboard where the only obliggato instrument was the keyboard, and the other instrument(s) were ad libitum. This was the stage that the accompanied sonata was in when Haydn wrote his earlier piano trios, for example, and Mozart his early violin sonatas. So when we are told (unfortunately often) that these earlier works aren't worth listening to because they were written for amateurs, we are victims of a misrepresentation, intentional or otherwise, that leaves out the entire context of what an amateur was in those days.
The case of Haydn's piano trios is one of the best examples of this situation. Even his late piano trios show a restricted position of the cello in front of both violin and piano. This lack of "instrumental balance" is not irrelevant for music, of course, but it is irrelevant for the quality of music: in fact, among those trios it is possible to find some of the greatest chamber compositions of this era and - as it is often with Haydn - of music as a whole.
Mozart's Prussian quartets show the other face of this evolution: the importance of the cello part was a consequence, deliberately thought for those specific works. I guess there's a lot to say about these magnificent quartets and their relationship with instrumental changes during the middle and late classical periods.
Further thoughts: new instrumental combinations during the classical period can be focused as another expression of this situation. For instance, I think of Mozart's Kegelstatt Trio, written for clarinet, viola and piano. It is one of Mozart's greatest chamber works and I would say a very "personal" one: he was particularly fond of those three instruments. The introduction of clarinet to the major repertoire is, in part, a consequence of Mozart's enthusiasm towards it: not just the evident Clarinet concerto or Clarinet quintet, but even in stage music; for example, La Clemenza di Tito has some delighful obbligati for clarinet. (Somebody will say - and very correctly - that it was intended for the basset horn, but I'm seeing the movement as a whole). On the other hand, viola was Mozart's favourite string instrument, and what to say about keyboard and its relationship with Mozart the virtuoso performer.
BTW, anyone knows two delicious discs entitled Mozart – Une Soirée chez les Jacquin (Zig Zag Territoritoires)?
I recalled them when I was reading the last posts.
Apparently in their original incarnation (I own the cheap edition without booklet), these CDs included an amazing “78 page booklet with essays on the Jacquins, on their relationship to Mozart, on Anton Stadler, on the basset horn and the clarinet, on the instrument-maker Theodor Lotz and on the fortepiano used for the recording by its maker”.
More information here: http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Jacquin-Lehtipuu-Ensemble-Banchini/dp/B00002R15T (the audio is rather fine for the Amazon's standards).
Great discs even considering this picture of Giles Thomé ::):
baryton...a member of the gamba family, typically consists of one manual w/ 6-7 bowed gut strings and another w/ up to 20, though normally 9-10 'sympathetically resonating strings of metal, lying under the fingerboard...; the open back of the neck also makes it possible to pluck the resonance strings....
Baryton - another older string instrument, popular in the 17th & 18th centuries, and one that has fascinated me for years; of course, the master composer for this instrument was Joseph Haydn, mainly because his employer, Prince Nikolaus Esterhazy, was apparently an excellent performer on this instrument and insisted on a LOT of 'new' music for his passion; Haydn was a reluctant servant at first because of his lack of understanding of the baryton; well, he taught himself to play the instrument and then was much more enthusiastic in composing many works, including 126 extant trios, duets, octets, and other pieces!
Well, yesterday I received from 'across the pond' the Brilliant Box shown below of Haydn's Baryton Works - the instrument is seen in both photos; Brilliant has established a website HERE (http://www.haydnbarytontrios.com/) just for this set; the track listenings are included, plus some audio snippets; quoted in part from the booklet:
The baryton used in these recordings (performed by the Esterhazy Ensemble w/ Michael Brussing on the instrument) is a copy after an instrument by J.J. Stadlmann which was played by Prince Nick, himself (the original is in the National Museum in Budapest) - just getting started today in listening to this set; will take a while! :D
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/503983918_hE2MS-M.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/503983919_Pot4F-M.jpg)
Very interesting material. Is there any evidence that the works commissioned, where it is clear that at least one 'line' had to be reasonably elementary, were subsequently reworked to beef-up the less demanding part?
Also, do we know whether the work pretty much had to be tune-lead? I was wondering to what extent composers felt they could experiment; or were they keeping themselves on the lead to ensure ear catching pleasure?
Mike
Ah, very informative, thanks. I had no idea about the Mozart triple piano concerto being reworked. I did wonder if it might be a reasonably widespread practice, knowing how many composers would rework good ideas. At least sometimes they must have been feeling that some excellent ideas were not being allowed to fly.
I suppose that as well as providing plenty of four in the bar, they would have to avoid certain keys.
Mike
Yes, it goes to the heart of the difference between performing music for other people and playing it for ones self without audience of any kind. I think largely we have lost that distinction as not many homes contain reasonably trained musical people who come together just to please themselves. Once upon a time many homes would have had a piano and so much music making would have centred round it. When I read about such families or groups of friends, I am envious.
Did composers provide their own simple editions of their chamber pieces for domestic consumption? Or was that really done by publishers paying arrangers? I have for example seen a simplified version of the Moonlight Sonata....not arrranged by Beethoven.
I heard it played in a hotel lounge and one of the musicians I was with, at the end, said very loudly, and I thought unkindly. 'Oh, Beethoven wrote something like that'
Mike
"Sometimes the keyboard makes all the difference!", said Gurn in some post.
Those words brought to my mind the following notes included with the Chopin’s Etudes played on fortepiano by John Khouri (Music&Arts Programs of America). There the performer explains the relation between the Chopin’s generation and the previous one:
“By 1830, the pupils of Clementi, Mozart and Beethoven were beginning to face a new breed of virtuoso. Paradoxically weaned on their technical innovations, the new school gradually overtook and smothered the old. Hummel, Ries, Cramer, Field, Kalkbrenner and many others, were to see their achievements eclipsed by new-comers who exhibited a ferocious command of the keyboard. The older generation had trouble at first comprehending the new pianists. Cramer, for example, told von Lenz, “I don’t understand him (Chopin), but he plays beautifully and correctly. Oh! Very correctly; he doesn’t let fly like other young people; but I don’t understand him”. When John Field first heard the young Liszt in Paris in 1832, he quipped to another audience member “does he bite?”. Not only did Liszt bite, but he proceeded to devour not only Field, but many others of his contemporaries. It is not surprising that Cramer disliked Liszt intensely. By 1830, Hummel’s supremacy as the continent’s greatest pianist was being seriously challenged and J.B. Cramer, Britain’s finest virtuoso, was beginning to look distinctly old-fashioned. And so, Schumann superceded Dussek, Liszt replaced Clementi, Mendelssohn become more appealing than Cramer and Chopin preferred to Field. As the 1840s dawned, the achievements of great pianist born in the 18th century faded into obscurity and their compositions began to gather dust. The new school of Liszt, Chopin, Thalberg, Henselt and Alkan had well and truly arrived”.
:)
Yes, Antoine, one generation succeeded the previous one, and brought with them a whole new idea about music. Among other things, this became the Age of the Virtuoso, which was something that was very much frowned upon by the Classicists. Even though such as Cramer, Hummel, Dussek and Field were indeed extraordinary players, they didn't let their talent overshadow the music. With the advent of that generation, with the exception of Chopin (who was a virtuoso, but not a showoff), the quality of the music became subordinate to the opportunities for showing what they could do at the piano.I think there are other exceptions, namely Alkan who rarely sacrificed virtuosity for substance and who became a recluse, Mendelssohn and also his sister who was forced to remain an 'amateur'. Schumann injured his hand couldn't be a virtuoso so there are few excesses in his music either. His wife Clara was one of the best virtuosos of the time but unfortunately had to use that skill to earn a crust so her oeuvre is small. Listz did in later years cast off his excesses, in fact I would hardly say he was showing off in his Sonata.
I think there are other exceptions, namely Alkan who rarely sacrificed virtuosity for substance and who became a recluse, Mendelssohn and also his sister who was forced to remain an 'amateur'. Schumann injured his hand couldn't be a virtuoso so there are few excesses in his music either. His wife Clara was one of the best virtuosos of the time but unfortunately had to use that skill to earn a crust so her oeuvre is small. Listz did in later years cast off his excesses, in fact I would hardly say he was showing off in his Sonata.
Ensemble Chamber Playing - Part II - String Quartets
....Now I would like to take a very brief history of string quartets and show how they came from a very different gene pool.
.....The string quartet as we know it today traces back in direct fashion to Haydn's Op 9 of 1771........
....As the population of good, professional musicians grew, the string quartet became more popular, became played in public, became a paragon of musical virtue.
Let's remember, however, that specially in French music, a duality survived into the nineteenth century: the quatuor brillant opposed to the quatuor concertant. While in the first there was a clear hegemony of one of the instruments (in string quartets, normally the first violin), the second followed the patterns of equality between them described by Gurn.
The evolution towards the quatuor concertant seems obvious, judging from our time the music of that period. However, there was quite a struggle and - perhaps - it is even more noticeable when considering genres other than the string quartet; for example, in chamber music for winds and strings. In a clarinet quintet - for example - the temptation of writing for "clarinet + strings" instead of writing for "clarinet + violin + violin + viola + cello" could be very strong. The influence of Rejcha and Krommer in this evolution was, to my opinion, of considerable importance: as Haydn and Beethoven didn't show a great interest in this kind of works, they were the composers with the highest technical knowledge of their time to deal directly with this problem (I think of Spohr as an alternative, but I don't know his music enough as to analyze his influence: perhaps Gurn or some other illustrated member could make a comment about his music).
And here I arrive to a point of - perhaps - anticipating a third post by Gurn: the most impressive equality achieved by Rejcha in his wind quintets. These works are a major musical as well as historical achievement. While the string quartet shows three kinds of instruments, they are mutatis mutandis of a same nature, and so, their equal treatment can be regarded as quite natural; but to treat equally a horn, an oboe, a clarinet, a flute and a bassoon, and to do it remarkably as Rejcha did with works of the highest musical excellence, is more than just something to be noticed as an anecdote in some forgotten pages of musical history.
Gurn - excellent post, as usual; and agree that the development of the String Quartet was centered more on professional performance; an early example of course is our friend Luigi Boccherini, his earliest SQs were written in 1761, when he was but 18 y/o and on his way from Italy to Spain; these are labelled Op. 2 (1-6) and were composed for himself & his 'professional' buddies - of course, these are not the 4-movement (all are in 3 movements) works later 'perfected' by Haydn, but in those earlier years, I believe that the two composers were 'bouncing' ideas off each other, esp. the greater role of the cello in this string ensemble as evident by Luigi's writing & playing. Dave
I have been shopping all over the Internet for the last couple of days for a disk of Vanhal string quartets. You would think that with nearly 100 to choose from, and the generally high quality of his music, that there would be a few disks out there, but nooooo.... :-\
Ideas?
I have been shopping all over the Internet for the last couple of days for a disk of Vanhal string quartets. You would think that with nearly 100 to choose from, and the generally high quality of his music, that there would be a few disks out there, but nooooo.... :-\
Gurn - excellent post, as usual; and agree that the development of the String Quartet was centered more on professional performance; an early example of course is our friend Luigi Boccherini, his earliest SQs were written in 1761, when he was but 18 y/o and on his way from Italy to Spain; these are labelled Op. 2 (1-6) and were composed for himself & his 'professional' buddies - of course, these are not the 4-movement (all are in 3 movements) works later 'perfected' by Haydn, but in those earlier years, I believe that the two composers were 'bouncing' ideas off each other, esp. the greater role of the cello in this string ensemble as evident by Luigi's writing & playing. Dave
Gurn - the only disc of Vanhal's SQs that I own is shown below - Kubin Quartet on a label called 'MusicSonic' - nothing at BRO currently, but that must have been the place for me? Will have to give it a spin soon - :)
Boccherini wrote a bunch of String Quartets - listed HERE (http://www.uquebec.ca/musique/catal/boccherini/boclchb4.html); at least 90+, maybe a 100! I just have 2 discs of his SQs - the Op. 2 works mentioned previously, then one CD on Capriccio - must look into acquiring some more! But, I do have a lot more of the String Quintets, which he did so well! - Dave
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Yes, there is no shortage of Boccherini quartets, thankfully. I was a little bit bewildered about where to start, actually. I have quite a few quintets too. Very fine works. Luigi is among the most underrated composers, not only of the Classical Era, but of any era!
Thanks, Dave, for showing that CD. I didn't know any Vanhal string quartet recordings. In what keys are they written?
Thanks for recalling Boccherini, Dave. Boccherini is a name that is usually forgotten and he has really stupendous music. I'm not deeply acquainted by his music, but it strikes me as sounding very different from the "Austrian" line. What I remember instantaneously about his excellent string quartets and quintets is that they show textures not to be found in the great Viennese composers. There must be more interesting features, but I recall specially this one.
I feel quite motivated today, because I bought the new Boccherini CD recorded by Fabio Biondi and Europa Galante for Virgin Classics. I have the two previous releases and they are nothing less than extraordinary. I hope this one (which I have not listened to yet) will keep on the same level. They play one trio (D major, op. 14/4, G. 98), one quartet (C minor, op. 41/1, G. 214), one quintet (C minor, op. 45/1, G. 355) and one sextet (F minor, op. 23/4, G. 457). Quite a proliferation of minor-key works! (Unfortunately my headphones collapsed yesterday and today I didn't have time for buying a replacement, so any comment will have to wait at least until tomorrow).
For those who might not have it, I would also add that this one, by Savall et al is a very fine disk too. :)
Thanks, Dave, for showing that CD. I didn't know any Vanhal string quartet recordings. In what keys are they written?
Gurn, that Savall CD is pure delight. If I had to introduce Boccherini's music to someone, I would certainly choose that CD: it is a winner.
Hi Gabriel - just returned home from work & decided to give that Vanhal disc a spin - also, scanned in some pics below, better showing the cover & the back notes w/ the SQ listing & their keys; the Kubin Quartet have been together since forming after their student days in 1972; don't believe that I have any other recordings by this group (although a statement in the booklet excited me, i.e. a recent release by Multisonic, containing a complete set of string quartets by Karl Ditters - I already have a couple of discs of von Dittersdorf's String Quartets/Quintets, and not sure how many of these chamber works he wrote?
As can be seen from the listing, these works are in 3 movements and in various keys - composed between 1769 and 1773; recorded in 2002, and stated to be 'World Premiere Recordings' - just is amazing 'how much' of this stuff was either lost, lays undiscovered, or even known but not recorded - thank goodness their are performers willing to research these now more obscure composers and record their music; Dieter Klöcker is an artist that I greatly admired not only for his wonderful skills on the clarinet, but his diligence & persistence in recording this type of repertoire!
Again from the liner notes, the statement is made that Johann Dlabač, who had met Vanhal, and published a lexicon in 1815 attributes 100 symphonies, 100 string quartets, and nearly a hundred church compositions to Vanhal - boy, where is this stuff! Dave ;D
P.S. that disc is just wonderful - great sting playing by an obviously experience group & excellent sound by this Czech Republic company!
Dave, thank you so much for such an informative post. Looking at the back notes makes me hesitate a little bit about my statement that I hadn't seen the CD... I'm afraid I had it once in my hands and I didn't buy it. I'm sure there's excellent music in it.
All that stuff is waiting to be played after so many years! Luckily we have some champions of this kind of repertoire. For example, there's a recent CD of Vanhal's piano quintets in Hungaroton. I wonder if any GMG member has bought it.
Finally, on Ditters von Dittersdorf, Dave, as far as I know he just composed the set of six string quartets that you probably own in a couple of discs. They are not a non plus ultra in chamber music, but they are very enjoyable, light-spirited works.
Yes, agree w/ both of you about Boccherini - I now have about 3 dozen discs of his music (just one vocal), and could easily obtain more! Luigi's output was just phenomenal - for those interested, check out THIS CATALOG (http://www.uquebec.ca/musique/catal/boccherini/bocl.html) of his works (Gurn & I have provided this link before, and probably in both the new & old forums!) - :)
Dave,
Here's a 2 disk set with all of Ditters 4tets HERE (http://www2.broinc.com/search.php?row=0&text=ditters&filter=all&cd=1&Label=&genre=&RPP=25&pprice=&submit=Search)
I think I will pick this one up myself next time I order from BRO. I still have one order in the mail... :)
Good evening, Gurn - thanks for that link from BRO - just checked my collection and have the 2 CDs from CPO shown below; both w/ the Franz Schubert Quartet, who perform quite well; includes the 6 SQs & 2 String Quintets, both clocking in at just over an hour - guess that I'm OK for the moment - Dave :D
(http://www.classicsonline.com/images/cds/others/999038-2.gif) (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/cpo9991222.jpg)
Ah yes, I saw that at Amazon this afternoon. You like, eh? Well, I might just go ahead and pick those up instead. I didn't know the performers in either case, so I didn't have a preference. :)
PS - the disk I'm listening to now is pretty excellent, too! ;)
Boccherini Op. 23 - Sextets - Nos. 1,2,5 - Chiara Banchini - Ensemble 415 - Boccherini Op 23 #2 Sextet in Bb for Strings 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato
Some words for my impressions, as announced, on Biondi's recent Boccherini CD. It reaches the standards of the previous two releases; it is almost unbelievable to notice how they are figuring out with utmost care every detail of the works recorded. The acid violence of op. 45 n. 1, the ambiguous, rhythmical drama of op. 23 n. 4, the splendid pathos of op. 41 n. 1, are shown as vividly as possible. And the potentially "less striking" work of this selection, trio op. 14 n. 4, is so wonderfully balanced, crafted and articulated that it almost seems that the players are singing instead of playing.
The Boccherini-Biondi association is proving to be really extraordinary. Supported with great sound, this is almost unbeatable.
Gurn - those two CPO discs are quite nice - don't think that you would be disappointed, plus both offer a 'full' disc of music - decent prices on the Amazon Marketplace (unless, of course, BRO picks them up as offerings?).
The Boccherini recording mentioned above looks enticing - I have a Capriccio CD of the Sextets w/ only one 'overlap', so would be a nice fit; unforutantely seems to be OOP for us in the USA - :-\ Now, I own a disc of the same group performing in some of Luigi's Quintets - excellent, so what to do? :'( Dave
How's your Czerny collection, Gurn?
Dave, did you try amazon.ca or amazon.uk? I have ordered things from both places with no problem. We also don't get charged with extra taxes. The only thing one has to be careful about is ordering DVD from England - Canada and we use NTSC and England uses PAL. Unless we have a universal player, we cannot use PAL.
Karl - is Gurn the only one that can respond? ;) :D
How's your Czerny collection, Gurn?
Valentino.
You asked last week about classical composers who wrote fugues. I had a brain fart at the time, but our discussion about Boccherini reminded me of this disk. It now seems to be OOP, but I would be surprised if it was the only recording ever made of these works. I listened to them just a few minutes ago and they were as nice as I remembered. :)
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8)
----------------
Listening to:
Boccherini - Cello Sonatas - Fugues For 2 Cellos - Anner Bylsma / Kenneth Slowik / Bob van Asperen - Boccherini G 009 Sonata in F for Cello 1st mvmt - Andantino
Off-topic: Curiously on Monday I received a disc with Kenneth Slowick playing the fortepiano (a Rodney J. Regier, Freeport, ME, 1985 after Conrad Graf). He established his reputation as a cellist and viola da gamba player; but here his playing on the pianoforte is excellent. He and Max van Egmond built an extraordinary disc. The session producer was Peter Watchorn.
I recall the case of Jérôme Hantaï. He is, as we know, a viola da gamba player, but has at least two discs as a fortepianist (some piano sonatas and piano trios, I think). I don't know those discs, but the reviews have not been benevolent with him.
I do have a recording of Hantai playing the keyboard. It isn't bad at all. But considering the competition, it won't be collector's item.
Speaking of Gamba players, I should put in a plug for my friend Jay Bernfeld. He is a remarkable musician. His first love is really opera. He has been known to sing mostly baroque or pre-baroque repertoire. But it is his gamba playing that is so impressive. I have many of his recordings of course. But I have only heard him play once, that being the first and only time we have met. I was unable to make it to his concert in SF. To my surprise, he drove to Los Angeles after the concert and showed up at my door the next day. He played a recital at my home just for me. I was deeply moved. We shared a long conversation about music, interestingly mostly about opera. His favorite is Tebaldi. I gave him about a dozen opera recordings as gift.
........ Generally I am quite fond of his music and ought to get more of it. I have been looking at that disk that Dave mentioned, the sonatas for fortepiano & horn. I suspect that's a peach. :)
Hello Gurn - just returned home from an overnight in Charlotte (Mint Museum had a nice exhibit to benefit New Orleans - a substantial collection, nearly 100 pieces, from their Art Museum, traveling to various cities) - :D
But, the disc mentioned of Czerny's Horn & Fortepiano Works is fascinating - have it spinning now just as an aural reminder to me - ;) ;D
Geoffrey Govier is playing a fortepiano built in 1839 by the Viennese maker Johann Streicher; there is no iron incorporated into the case according to the liner notes; the instrument has been restored, as expected. Andrew Clark plays a 'valved' horn on the first piece (see back cover below) - apparently intentionally written for that 'new' instrument; Czerny then seem to go back to the 'natural' horn which was used on the remainder of the disc (noticed the difference in Opus numbers reflecting that shift of instruments).
Most of the CD consists of the Brillante Fantasie, Op. 339, Nos. 1-3 - these were written ca. 1836 and were based on the 'melodies' of Franz Schubert, presumably considered more of a compliment to a composer back in those days. Overall, a fabulous disc and (just checked) still available @ BRO for $5!
As you already mentioned, the guy wrote about a 1000 compositions of ALL types! Wiki has a lising of over 800 Opus Nos. HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Carl_Czerny) w/ a number not ascribed. Much of this work seems to be un- or under-recorded, so any recommendations would be of interest - thanks all - Dave :)
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I'm following your opinions about Czerny's music, which is quite unknown to me. :)
I have good news for Krommer fans. A third recording of the string trio op. 96 has just been released by the small Diligence label, together with the Flute quartet op. 92 and (as far as I know, a world première) the three Hungarian Dances op. 89. They are played by Nicole Tamestit & La Compagnie.
As a general view, they are very good performances; the main problem is that I feel the acoustics as a bit dry, but this situation doesn't bother too much the listening experience. The Hungarian Dances in the CD are one of the most evident examples available of national flavour to be found in the classical period; and concerning Hungarian music during these years, as evident as probably no other work I know excepting the Hungarian Dances for keyboard, op. 23, by Hummel.
A delightful release.
Interrelationships and influences between composers -
The recent post on Czerny (student of Beethoven, teacher of Liszt) reminded me on an interest I pursued a few years ago. And disappointed me at the same time due to my failure to write things down and not foresee that my memory would not always be the extraordinary tool it once was. ::) In any case, the topic was direct relationships and musical influences between composers. Not in the sense of "he had to have heard X's work..." but rather "he knew X and learned from him or taught him...".
Of course, at the Baroque-Classical transition were the Bach sons & their father; at the other end, one good example would be Ferdinand Ries (1784-1838) - Wiki Bio HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Ries) - Beethoven was a major influence; both composers were born in Bonn; Ries' father, Franz Anton (1755-1846) was a violin virtuoso in the Bonn court orchestra, and taught the young Beethoven to play violin, and also gave lessons in violin & piano to his son. The younger Ries ended up in Vienna, and over 4 years worked for Beethoven as a copyist and secretary, receiving piano lessons as compensation. He composed much music, and his early works were strongly influenced by Beethoven; "He ........ left eight symphonies, a violin concerto and nine piano concertos, and numerous other works in many genres, including 26 string quartets", plus plenty of chamber and other piano works.
I've really enjoyed Ries' music over the years, and have obtained quite a bit, mostly on the CPO label; for those who may want to explore this composer and depending on your interests, below is 'what' I currently own - and I can't say that I dislike any of this music - the guy was good!
Complete Symphonies w/ Howard Griffiths & Surcher Kammerorchester on CPO - includes 8 symphonies recorded from 1997-1002; 4 CD box set.
Clarinet Sonatas & Clarinet Trio w/ Dieter Klocker; Armin Fromm on cello & Thomas Duis on piano - CPO; recorded 2003-4.
Flute Quartets w/ John Littlefield on flute; violin, viola, & cello the other instruments; on Naxos from 2006.
Piano Quartets w/ Andreas Frolich on piano; same strings, as above; CPO, recorded in 2002.
Piano Quintet w/ Nepomuk Fortepiano Quintet; also includes similar work by Franz Limmer; on Brilliant, 2003.
Piano Trios w/ Mendelssohn Trio Berlin; again from CPO, dated 2004.
Septet & Octet w/ Linos Ensemble; CPO from 2002.
String Quartets, Vol. 1 w/ Schuppanizigh Quartett; CPO, 2004 - BOY, only 2 of 26! Not sure 'how many' of the SQs have been recorded?
Hmmm - no Piano Concertos & a bunch of SQs missing; will appreciate comments on other options & 'new' additions - Dave :)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/FerdinandRies.jpg/180px-FerdinandRies.jpg)
Very interesting post, Gurn. I have often wondered about this... When do you stop using harpsichord and start using piano? The practice seems to be any "Classical" work, but - as you have aptly pointed out - this runs into problems. What about volume indications or the lack thereof? Take Haydn's keyboard concerto in D, H. 23:11 - Pinnock and Koopman both seem to be of the notion that this is a harpsichord piece. I assume this is do to a lack of crescendos/decrescendos and volume indications?Well, it may be a harpsichord piece, but it sounds much better when played on a piano to my ears.
Well, it may be a harpsichord piece, but it sounds much better when played on a piano to my ears.
. . . Of course, this was right in the transitional time when a lot of works were claimed as being "for fortepiano or harpsichord", but that is just pandering to the audience, really, since the intentions of the composer can't be properly reproduced on the harpsichord.
Pandering to the audience, or realistic expectations of how the homes of your market are musically equipped? . . .
Even "grandfathering" has a history, Gurn 8)
Development of the Classical orchestra -
All this talk on other threads (like HIP Beethoven Symphonies, for one) about performance practice got me curious to refresh my memory about size and constitution of the orchestra during the period in question (1750-1830 <>). So to start at the beginning, I looked up what our old friend Quantz had to say, since he wrote near the beginning of the period (early 1750's). What I found were a couple of anomalies from that era which changed over time as the orchestra itself and ideas about music evolved....................
Good evening Gurn - thanks for your detailed thread on the orchestra and its changes from this wonderful period that we both love! ;D
But, not sure if I've posted the book below in this thread (maybe in the reading one?) - The Birth of the Orchestra - History of an Institution, 1650-1815 by John Spitzer & Neal Zaslaw (2004) by Oxford Press - I bought this 'paperback' book (and not cheap, so a local library checkout would be recommended) - but this is an absolutely superb tome (about 600 pages including appendices & index) that considers exactly the questions that you discussed, i.e. the origins & development of 'orchestras' from the dates indicated; there are numerous tables & listings of the various orchestras of the times w/ exact listings of the instruments used - the detail is definitive - now, this will not appeal to many, but if you are interested in the questions & issues raised by this post, then I can't imagine a book that would not answer virtually many of the questions raised. Dave :)
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By the looks of that book, it rivals Zaslaw's Mozart book in size and probably detail too.
(http://www.oupcanada.com/documents/Image/Jackets/l/9780195166651.jpg)
This one would make a nice sibling album for the one cited above, covering a later development and focusing perhaps more on the technical details of how to interpret contemporary notation. I don't have this book but have read individual papers from Dr. Clive Brown. Sir Roger Norrington supplied the foreword!
Limmer's first initial: G.?
Mozart also has a charming little quintet for piano & winds (oboe, clarinet, horn and bassoon), K. 452. ;)
True enough, although the instrumentation is way off base. In any case, I'll see your Wolfgang and raise you a pair of Ludwigs (Spohr & Beethoven) and you will end up with 3 pretty nice 5tets with piano and winds. Chamber music was pretty diverse in those days, eh? :)Yes indeed! Nice for the ears, notosmuch for me when I try to categorise it all on my music player! ;D
Yes indeed! Nice for the ears, notosmuch for me when I try to categorise it all on my music player! ;D
Yeah, that's a problem. I have mixed feeling about it. I have solved the problem of "having music that I haven't heard" as described in the "Unopened CD's" thread by ripping everything, and then just double-clicking randomly in the "Local Media" list in WinAMP and letting it play whatever it wants to. It is my opinion that categorizing (for ME) is just too anal. :DYou're probably right. I get lost and confused in my own music player when I don't have everything in order, though! (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/images/smilies/emoticons/wacko.gif)
You're probably right. I get lost and confused in my own music player when I don't have everything in order, though! (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/images/smilies/emoticons/wacko.gif)
Well, I only have 8 gigs on my MP3 player, so it is hard to get lost. But I have 220 gigs on my hard drive, and even though the file system keeps everything in perfect order, constantly choosing what to play can be an ordeal. I find myself listening to the same things all the time and ignoring other things that I really do like, but they just don't occur to me. This way, everything gets a chance. :)Speaking of which, when the great Gön does listen to music, what does he use? Some top-of-the-line headcans, perhaps?
Speaking of which, when the great Gön does listen to music, what does he use? Some top-of-the-line headcans, perhaps?
Well, they're pretty good. I can't stand things stuck in my ears, so I needed phones, but portable. So I got some Sennheiser PX200 over the ear folding phones. And I notice the price is half what I paid a year ago... >:( Anyway, they have very nice sound, and fold up small for portability. Sweet! :)
This will likely be the HIGHLIGHT of my 'short medical' trip to Boston; first visit to this historic Symphony Hall, Haydn (one of my favorite composers, if not @ the top?), a period instrument 'small' orchestra (the 'winds' just zoomed out the the ensemble brightly & clearly), and Sir Roger Norrington - could not ask for a better surprise! Dave :)
Dave, it seems a splendid concert indeed. How was the performance of the Scena di Berenice?
Thanks, Dave. I do not know Nathalie Paulin at all, but I trust Norrington's choices. On the other hand, it is not usual to have Haydn songs sung in a concert. A great concert for the Haydn year 2009! ;)
P.S. Below a pic of 'how' Norrington looked during the performance; kind of an 'oriental' black garment! :)
Hello Gabriel - just returned home from Boston - could have spent a few more days, and would have loved to have met Karl, if we had had more time . . . .
P.S. Below a pic of 'how' Norrington looked during the performance; kind of an 'oriental' black garment!
Oh, we certainly ought to have got together, Dave!
Go on! That's a still from Karate Kid III! 8)
...concerning an encounter between Ludwig van Beethoven and Franz Krommer....both composers were present at a concert in Count Lichnowsky's palace in Vienna where string quartets by each of them were played. In the middle of the performance, Beethoven began to lambaste Krommer's successful works, and his conduct was so unbecoming that the count found it necessary to reprimand him.
Clementi, Muzio (1752-1832) - Piano Sonatas, Vol. 3 w/ Howard Shelley - Clementi has been already discussed in this thread earlier; this is the newest release of Shelley's perusal of these piano sonatas, not sure how many more will be released; Hyperion is packaging these as 2-CDs in a 'single' thin jewel box at a bargain price; as w/ the other two volumes, these continue in the same superb performances - now I've also been buying fortepiano interpretations of these works w/ Costantino Mastroprimiano on the Brilliant label - have 6 discs each from the different performers - love them both! ;D
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/524943859_XaG3f-S.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51C7yg0-NtL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Yes, you've already tempted me with the Shelley... :D I'm still working on the Mastroprimiano right now, have the first 2 boxes. Out of curiosity, do they replicate the same works pretty much? Or did Shelley start at the end and work his way backwards?..................
BTW, do you (or does anyone) have a disk of his etudes (that's what they are, although not called anything in particular) Gradus ad Parnassum(Op 44)? I have a disk of the first 6 suites played by Danielle Laval, and they are really quite interesting. Of course, after his death, his piano method lived on, and these are at the heart of it. :)
Good evening Gurn - Shelley seems to be recording these works in pretty much the order of their Opus numbers, i.e. Vol. 1 = Op. 1, 2, 7, & 8; Vol. 2 = Opp. 9-12; Vol. 3 = Op. 13, 20, 23, & 24; OTOH, Mastroprimiano is mixing them up (but of course all will eventually overlap) - his Vol. 1 (3-CDs) include works from Op. 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 24, & 41; Vol. 2 is different, e.g. disc 1 is mostly six sonatas dedicated to Peter Beckford, and the others are not quite the same as the Shelley numbering - I guess that your choice is the desire to have the 'modern' piano vs. the fortepiano.
Concerning the Etudes - cannot provide an answer - did a little searching w/o much success - seem to be 'later' works? I have some of Clementi's Symphonies, and know that he wrote chamber works, but own none of these compositions, so would be interested in the comments from all about other offerings? Dave :)
Just yesterday I recommended (on the thread "What are you listening?") a very nice and complete version (4 Cds) of the Gradus ad Parnassum, recorded on the label Arts. Its sound is gorgeous and the interpretation (by several young Italian pianists) is excellent or at least very good.
Below is included the image of another disc (by John Khouri) also strongly recommended.
Oh, hot damn! Thanks for that, Antoine! What synchronicity, since I have never mentioned these, nor seen them mentioned either! I really need to pick that up.
I have the 4 CDs of the complete Gradus ad Parnassum played by Laval, and it is very good indeed. You should get a complete set, Gurn: it is a fundamental work of classical piano literature.
Laval plays on modern piano, Que. (And considering the artists in the Arts recording, it should be modern piano too).
:'(
Yes, the Arts set is played on modern piano, Que, but IMO it is recorded in a totally lovely way and, you know, I am a HIP dude too.
Here is possible to get some idea about the set:
http://artsmusic.de/templates/tyReleasesD.php?id=667&label=blue%20line&topic=arts-releases-detail
Thanks, the music sounds very much worthwhile and significant. :)
Performances sound excellent too, but imagine this by Andreas Staier! :o Would be just the thing for him, or maybe Immerseel, Brautigam or Komen? ::)
Q
I have the 4 CDs of the complete Gradus ad Parnassum played by Laval, and it is very good indeed. You should get a complete set, Gurn: it is a fundamental work of classical piano literature.
Are the recordings mentioned (Laval and the set on Arts) on fortepiano?
Because after having heard Clementi on Staier's Broadwood and on Mastroprimiano's copy after Dulcken, that's mandatory IMO! :o :)
Q
Also sometimes my imagination has run wild, Que.
When I listened to András Schiff playing on the Beethoven’s Broadwood piano –before his ongoing set-, I imagined a complete set by him on period instruments!
I thought to write a letter suggesting the idea. But I didn’t do it considering his some “militant” position against the HIP movement and because I’m not (yet) totally crazy. ;D
Well, I know you are a chamber fan (like me!) but you would likely be interested in Paisiello's piano concerti. The #4 in g minor is particularly good (you can find it on a Naxos disk). Not all of the opera composers were good at purley instrumental music, but he was one who was. :)
8)
....The three movement structure was as follows:
Allegro giusto
Andantino
Allegro Assai
Aha!! It's the G.98, Op. 14/4 D major Trio. What an awesome piece!!!
Another thing I learned at last night's concert. I knew he was extremely proficient with the cello, but Boccherini was such a virtuoso with the cello, that he could play violin passages on his cello.....in the same pitch as a violin! :o
Yes, one of the things he was famous for. And not just passages, he could play whole violin concertos at pitch on the cello. Not being a cello player, I can only say that if that is as impressively difficult as it sounds to be, I would have loved to hear it! :)
8)
Thanks for that list, Gabriel. And as you noted, Beethoven turned me on to Cherubini, after I read his statement in a biography.
I admit, I didn't even consider Cherubini until I, too, read of Beethoven's high regard of the man's music.
Capriccio ou Etude for Pianoforte 1789 - a 4 part (movement?) solo piano work from the time of his student days in Vienna. Actually, it is eye-opening, since the 1789 date seems like it can't be right when you hear the music (but it is!). I have Mario Patuzzi playing it, don't know if there is anyone else (but would love it on a Walter!).
I also have 1 Etude for Horn & Strings, which, since it is marked "#2", leads one to believe there must be others. It is also very interesting.
Unfortunately there are no exceptional recordings for the D Minor Requiem, which is a shame because it's a masterpiece!
Cherubini's six string quartets have been recorded on time-appropriate instruments by Hausmusik.
(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/88/455788.jpg)
A recommended list of works: Cherubini (1760-1842).
- The six string quartets: Eb, C, Dm, E, F, Am
- Requiem in C minor
- Requiem in D minor
The most impressive thing is that this list includes most of the Cherubini works recorded
I transpose a message I've just written in another thread, concerning - naturally - a classical composer.
It's interesting that you mention this CD, Traverso. Re: Gaetano Brunetti
There is a very good recording by Igor Markevitch, but it already sounds a bit old. I would really like to know what would our HIP champions be able to do with this powerful work.
It's interesting that you mention this CD, Traverso. It's the only CD I own of Brunetti's music, and I would like to know more of it before trying to describe the style of the composer. But specifically about these few string quartets I can say that it is some of the most intriguing chamber music of the classical period. Perhaps it is the use of listening to the Viennese composers of the time, but even compared with Boccherini's works these are very special; I would even say that they are very strange. Their emotional approach is a light one, but the music in itself is quite twisted: very strange textures, unexpected modulations, irregular subjects, and lots of other surprises.
I feel quite motivated today, because I bought the new Boccherini CD recorded by Fabio Biondi and Europa Galante for Virgin Classics. I have the two previous releases and they are nothing less than extraordinary. I hope this one (which I have not listened to yet) will keep on the same level. They play one trio (D major, op. 14/4, G. 98), one quartet (C minor, op. 41/1, G. 214), one quintet (C minor, op. 45/1, G. 355) and one sextet (F minor, op. 23/4, G. 457). Quite a proliferation of minor-key works! (Unfortunately my headphones collapsed yesterday and today I didn't have time for buying a replacement, so any comment will have to wait at least until tomorrow).
How do you enjoy this CD, Gabriel. Upon first listen it was fantastic! I partilarly enjoyed the Quintet and Trio. :)
Well, I guess I never wrote the further comments I suggested! ;D
My impression on this CD improves after every listening. It is played with delicacy, wit and sense of balance. I would be very (but thankfully) surprised if somebody could play these works better than Biondi and Europa Galante.
I would say that the star of the set is the Quintet op. 45/1 that strategically opens the CD. A true masterpiece that, to my ears, shows the most Italian side of Boccherini.
- The Adagio non tanto is remarkable in its natural but (at first) unexpected harmonic progressions and in the contrasts in intensity provided by the second subject.
- The second movement, Allegro assai, is a compact sonata form movement that provides the most effective contrast between the Vivaldian (I can't put it better in other words) first subject and the somewhat incoherent (this is not pejorative, just descriptive) second one. The development is very beautiful, with no great surprises excepting a strange harmonic leap before the short transition to the recapitulation (around 3:25-3:27); this last one is quite short but keeps the surprise of changing to minor mode the second subject before the coda (what is quite natural as Boccherini wanted to end the movement in minor mode).
- The Tempo di minuetto is not very eloquent, but it shows the hidden advantages of a A-B-A' structure: when listening to the minuet (A), it seems that it doesn't keep any surprise; then the trio (B) repeats a 3-note figure that answers quite violently to the first sentence; of course, the minuet (A') comes back... to show that in its first subject there are two echoes of the 3-note subject that was first clearly shown in the trio, one in the bass section of the first subject (not very clear), and then as a response (very clear) with the second note being higher than the other two.
- Finally, the concluding Presto is a Boccherinian Sturm und Drang. Quick alternations between major and minor modes, between different intensities, it hides a formidable inner tension. Tremolandi play a substantial role, even in the short development (if I am listening correctly, it is a very short rondo-sonata form, with inverted subjects in the recapitulation).
On the other works there are many features to be remarked. On the Sextet op. 23/4, the great difference in character with the Quintet that I just described. The long introductory Allegro moderato is outstanding because Boccherini makes every possible effort to diminish any contrast between the subjects (v. gr., the appearance of a major sentence in the B subject is exceptionally soft and timid) as well as between the sections (v. gr., there is a sort of fusion between the codetta of the B subject and the repetition of the A subject). This kind of dark approach is repeated in the third movement, Grave assai, with its sinuous lines that form almost an introduction to the exceptionally folk-like fourth movement. The Quartet op. 41/1 has the magnificent Andante flebile as its center, a simple yet impeccably written movement. Finally, about the Trio op. 14/4, I'm particularly fond of the Andantino, that according to the booklet is played sempre piano by the viola and the cello. The effect obtained by Boccherini is sensational: as it doesn't change this very soft playing, what he does during the four minutes is to gather energy for a possible outburst that never comes (it does with the final movement, but that is a different story).
I'm sorry if I have been inaccurate in some descriptions, but it is already 2:30 AM in France and this can have some consequences on musical explorations. ;)
Pleyel, Ignaz Joseph (1757-1831) - Clarinet Concertos 1 & 2 w/ Dieter Klocker on CPO. In addition to being a student of Haydn, musical publisher, & piano maker, he was one of the most popular composers in Europe in the early 19th century and wrote a large number of varied works.
Not sure that we've discussed Pleyel in this thread in depth, but I just received the disc below w/ the fabulous Klocker on the clarinet - he also wrote the superb liner notes in the CPO booklet. Gurn started a thread on Pleyel in the old forum (which is linked on the first page of this current one); he quoted a short but excellent bio written by Allan Bradley, which can be read HERE (http://www.classicsonline.com/composerbio/Ignaz_Joseph_Pleyel/#), for those interested.
I have just 4 other discs of music from this composer:
Symphonies w/ Bamert & London Mozart Players on Chandos (9525)
Symphonies w/ Grodd & Capella Istropolitana on Naxos (8.554696)
Piano Trios w/ Trio Joachim on Dynamic (2017)
String Quartets, Op. 1, Nos. 1-3 w/ Enso Quartet on Naxos (8.557496)
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/534313154_cf2nb-M.jpg) (http://www.pleyel.at/pleyel/fotos/pleyellogo.jpg)
Thank you for the thorough feedback, Gabriel! :) The initial reason I got this disc was to get that Trio in D major, and because of that spectacular Andantino, which blew me away when I heard it in the concert I recently attended. Definitely look forward to several repeat listens in the very near future. :)
...(if I am listening correctly, it is a very short rondo-sonata form, with inverted subjects in the recapitulation).
I'm sorry if I have been inaccurate in some descriptions, but it is already 2:30 AM in France and this can have some consequences on musical explorations. ;)
OK, well I guess I can't put it off any longer. I've put that Europa Galante disk in the shopping basket. :)
Pleyel... What I have heard of him I have liked. No doubt he lies somewhere around the bend in my ever-winding music road! ;)
Antonio Rosetti (1746-1792) ...............Rosetti's musical influences were primarily late Baroque-early Classic with Haydn having a major impact on his compositional direction. In addition, his writing for smaller groups, especially wind instruments, was governed by his contact with the wind players in the ochestras of which he directed or was a member. A partial listing of his works (comprising 400 or so) include 44 Symphonies, 4 keyboard concerti, 6 violin concerti, 1 viola concerto, 12 flute concerti, 7 oboe concerti, 4 clarinet concerti, 5 bassoon concerti, 17 horn concerti, 6 double horn concerti, 5 sinfonia concertantes, 38 partitas/serenades, 12 string quartets, 11 keyboard sonatas, 13 keyboard trios, 13 masses, 4 requiems, 22 other church works and 82 lieder reference here).[/color]
I wish I could say I have more of his music, since much of it has finally come available over the last 10 years, but I do have 10 or so disks which I am quite fond of. He is the quintessential Classical composer, writing in all genres as noted above, and particularly composing very fine wind music. Maybe someone will post some disks of interest, and I certainly will do so so.....
Brunetti, Gaetano (1744-1798) - String Quartets w/ Anton Steck & Schuppanzigh Quartett - this composer is 'new' to me but has been recommended in these pages; an Italian who spent his adult life at the Spanish court of the late 18th century, and a contemporary of Boccherini - Brunetti wrote a LOT of music (esp. chamber works & symphonies), but little has been published and even much less recorded - this guy is good & needs some further exploration! If you like classical SQs, this recording will be a joy!
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/540470824_LqRTz-M.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61CDKPAANHL._SL500_AA240_.gif)
I transpose a message I've just written in another thread, concerning - naturally - a classical composer.
It's interesting that you mention this CD, Traverso. It's the only CD I own of Brunetti's music, and I would like to know more of it before trying to describe the style of the composer. But specifically about these few string quartets I can say that it is some of the most intriguing chamber music of the classical period. Perhaps it is the use of listening to the Viennese composers of the time, but even compared with Boccherini's works these are very special; I would even say that they are very strange. Their emotional approach is a light one, but the music in itself is quite twisted: very strange textures, unexpected modulations, irregular subjects, and lots of other surprises.
If I had to describe these works, I'd say they are like a piranha. Their size is deceiving. And when gathered in groups, they can create a very powerful force. According to Wikipedia, he wrote a considerable amount of chamber music (44 string quartets, 66 string quintets, and so on). If most of his music had at least the level presented by this CD, we would be in front of a very sadly forgotten composer; and considering that Brunetti was active in Spain at the same time Boccherini was, they both could offer a most distinguished counterpoint to the Haydn-Mozart Austrian chamber music writing of this period.
Thanks for recalling Brunetti into this discussion, Dave. What is your opinion on the symphonies CD? Are they written with the same twisted spirit of the string quartets, or are they closer to traditional mid-classical standards?
In my recording of Mozart's Haydn quartets they repeat the recap section, and it becomes 4 minutes longer than other recordings of the d min 1st mov quartet I have. What's the deal with that? Was it common to do that or are they just being weirdos? I got these cds because of their recordings of Haydn's quartets but I don't think they repeat the recap section in those.
Actually...it seems they do it there too...im trying out the op 76 d minor one and they do it there also.
Let me guess... Quattors Mosaiques? :)
8)
Yeppo, I actually didn't like their Mozart recordings as much as their Haydn ones, but I'm not sure why yet.
Well at least now I have something new to pay attention to, in the past I didn't really follow the structure, I would just sort of memorize what would come next.
I'm now posting the promised review on the works by Krommer included in the recent release of the Marcolini Quartett. I will focus on Krommer's compositions, and therefore I won't make any comment on the performances......
J.B. Vanhal (1739-1813)
Introducing one of the most remarkable but still largely unknown composers of the 18th century. Johann Baptist Vanhal (1739-1813) . A man whose career has been often overshadowed by Mozart but who, in fact, had close and vital musical association with him. Vanhal’s career in Vienna came to an abrupt end around 1781 in Vienna (the official reason being some sort of mental illness) though in fact he continued to compose up until the time of his death in 1813. Composer of over 60 symphonies, around the same number of masses, chamber music and concertos. Many of them of very fine quality.
The rediscovery of this man’s music and recent recordings have done much to restore our appreciation of Vanhal's remarkable talents.
Johann Baptist Vanhal
Symphony in G Major
c.1776/7
1st Movement
http://www.mediafire.com/?00fnytymhn4
I was a little taken aback (but, I guess, needn't have been) by how difficult it was, trying to find specs on the Vanhal symphony I heard on WCRB (referenced here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,46.msg313404.html#msg313404)). In some of the 'catalogues' given as external links at the bottom of the Wikipedia article, for instance, there is no Symphony in F to be found.
Gabriel - thank you for that thorough and insightful review of the Krommer SQs disc - now, I must go back w/ your comments in mind and re-listen to my copy of that recording! :D Dave
I just saw that Krommer SQ disc the other day. Your review makes it inevitable!
Why can't I get much info on Albrechtsberger? Another one of those "wrote 100 SQs" types?
I wrote a little list of classical composers on the SQ thread.
The SQ is 250!!!
I would just like to post some impressions on my recent trip to Austria, where I participated in the Haydn commemorations for the 200th anniversary of his death......................
The concert hall, which I suppose was the Haydnsaal, was magnificent -- even through the idiot box! I cannot help but imagine how wonderful it would have been to experience it all live.
No wonder you were so quiet all weekend, you were having a momentous occasion! I am envious, but above all, pleased that you were able to take part. :)
which I haven't heard yet, but which looks interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if Gabriel has heard it... :)
Gabriel - thank you for the wonderful travelogue - I would have loved to enjoy those very experiences w/ you! I consider such a trip almost 'religious' - :D
Johann Georg Albrechtsberger (Composer)
Born: February 3, 1736 - Kloserneuburg, near Vienna, Austria
Died: March 7, 1809 - Vienna, Austria
[...]
And there is this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61NrQqYTGyL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.szabadi.com/HCD%2032109.jpg)
which I haven't heard yet, but which looks interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if Gabriel has heard it... :)
Hmm; more credible that Albrechtsberger "really" wrote Mozart, wot? 8)
I would just like to post some impressions on my recent trip to Austria, where I participated in the Haydn commemorations for the 200th anniversary of his death...
But for me the star of the performance was Quasthoff. I had never listened to him live, and I can just say I will not forget his magnificent performance; he was as solid in the high register as in the low one, and every line was sung with the most excellent taste and with the most splendorous beauty of tone and powerful expression.
Gabriel, thank you for the great write-up of your trip. And Quasthoff is amazing, isn't he! Great that you got to hear him, and even nicer that you got to meet him. IMHO he is one of the great singers on the scene today, and generally gives performances that linger in the memory for long after.
Loved the "Moon River" anecdote, priceless.
--Bruce
I have been waiting for the appearance of one of my very favorite composers here, but since he is shy as well as lovable, I guess I will have to bring him into the Corner on my own, with an able assist from Dave, who originally posted this bio in the old Forum.
Antonio Rosetti (1746-1792), a.k.a. František Antonín Rössler (or confusingly by other names) was born in Bohemia of Czech origin, but chose to Italianize his name (leading to further confusion with other musicians). He received his education in Prague and at a Jesuit college in central Bohemia, where he studied theology (intending to be a priest) and music, but in the early 1770s decided to pick music as his avocation. Rosetti was a double bass player and a member of the Prince Ernst orchestra, of which he became director in 1785. The Prince's orchestra had a fine group of wind players and musical events at the chateau occurred weekly, so a large part of Rosetti's compositional oeuvre comprises works of chamber music.
In 1781, he visited Paris, where his music was warmly received, an event repeated in other European cities. Rosetti became orchestral conductor of the Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin in 1789 at the peak of his reputation; symphonies and vocal works were commissioned further enhancing his reputation. During that time, he was also summoned to the court of King Frederick William III of Berlin to present his Oratorio Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. However, Rosetti, who suffered from poor health most of his life, became seriously ill. and died in June of 1792 and was buried at Ludwigslust (debate exists about his age claiming his year of birth to be ca. 1750).
Rosetti's musical influences were primarily late Baroque-early Classic with Haydn having a major impact on his compositional direction. In addition, his writing for smaller groups, especially wind instruments, was governed by his contact with the wind players in the ochestras of which he directed or was a member. A partial listing of his works (comprising 400 or so) include 44 Symphonies, 4 keyboard concerti, 6 violin concerti, 1 viola concerto, 12 flute concerti, 7 oboe concerti, 4 clarinet concerti, 5 bassoon concerti, 17 horn concerti, 6 double horn concerti, 5 sinfonia concertantes, 38 partitas/serenades, 12 string quartets, 11 keyboard sonatas, 13 keyboard trios, 13 masses, 4 requiems, 22 other church works and 82 lieder reference here).
I wish I could say I have more of his music, since much of it has finally come available over the last 10 years, but I do have 10 or so disks which I am quite fond of. He is the quintessential Classical composer, writing in all genres as noted above, and particularly composing very fine wind music. Maybe someone will post some disks of interest, and I certainly will do so soon. :)
8)
PS - This one below is particularly choice! ;)
----------------
Listening to:
Concerto Köln - Rosetti Mur A27 Sinfonia in Eb 4th mvmt - Finale: Allegretto
I caught a piano concerto of his on youtube, it was delicious! I never heard of this guy before.
I think you are in for a surprise! It certainly took me that way. Here is a taste.
Hey, that was good! Very much Viennese High Classical style. And as you would expect, he features the horns in the tutti quite prominently. Nice, thanks! :)Interestingly he wrote 4 horn concertos as well, which I am listening to now, and they remind me of someone's I just can't remember who... ;D
8)
----------------
Listening to:
Zurich CO / Griffiths - Cherubini Overture from Lodoïska 1791
Interestingly he wrote 4 horn concertos as well, which I am listening to now, and they remind me of someone's I just can't remember who... ;D
I wonder who wrote them first, as they really sound so similar to Mozart's!
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/LgXSooIs9pI&feature=PlayList&p=092B7E620499A0BF&index=11
Who was the first to use the tittle romanze in a movement? He uses it in one of the horn concertos also. I am beginning to wonder which dusty shelf this guy out of! I've lived everything I have heard so far.
Gurn & Mozart - just have been reading your numerous exchanges on Rosetti - I have about 10 discs of this composer's music, mainly 'wind compositions' of various types, including one CD of horn pieces (shown below) - looks like that there are plenty of other areas of his work to explore - thanks for refreshing my memory of this composer - will put on my own discs soon! Dave :D
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61CfBsm1WtL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_vcIu5PB4Qz4/SYyM9SNeyHI/AAAAAAAAA9Y/uNsDwAoxlLk/s320/Hoffmeister_6_duets_1.jpg)
I am taking a this, and have to say its great! It's humorous music stuff.
Franz Hoffmeister (1754-1812) - a Mozart contemporary, but lived longer! Just have two CDs of this composer, both of which I enjoy and shown below:
Wind Serenades, Vol. 2 w/ Consortium Classicum (with the wonderful Dieter Klocker on clarinet!) - other instruments include clarinet, horns, bassoons, & double bass; recorded beautifully on the CPO label.
Clarinet Quartets w/ Klocker again + Vlach Quartet Prague (2 violins + cello); again CPO label.
Now, how is the Clarinet & Piano disc? May add to my 'to buy' list if good! ;D
(http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:2yRL7Q7cI728qM:http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2006/Feb06/hoffmeister_7771332.jpg) (http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/450/455971.jpg)
I heard some string quartets by Rosetti and they put me to sleep :/
In the good way, or the bad way? ???
btw- what is UP with those craaazy CPO covers??? :o Not very "classical"!
And no one's heard those Albrechtsberger SQs?
So you won't be surprised. ;D It is a very good CD, a good purchase for anyone interested in Haydn's or Mozart's quartets. They are not in the front line of the most excellent quartets of the period, but they are beautifully written. Even if Albrechtsberger was famous as teacher of counterpoint, he doesn't display any exaggerated profusion of it: these are austere works that invite for a pleasant listening. A very pleasant one, I'd say.
It was a very beautiful experience. When thinking that Haydn said (to Hummel I guess) that everything that was beautiful came from God, it was inevitable to link all the trip to Haydn's very religious approach to life: the visit to his mausoleum, the performance of Die Schöpfung - a religious composition -, and so on. :)
Here is what Gabriel wrote about it. I think he is the only one so far who has heard it, although SonicMan, like me, has it on his wish list. 8)
Maybe this one has already come up, but I'd think this recording would be a no-brainer for classical fanatics:
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/2564697650.jpg)
Six symphonies by Vanhal. Not quite Mozart, rather short works (15 minutes average) but very inventive use of the orchestra and sometimes arresting themes. The third work on the disc, the "Sinfonia Comista" in C is a standout work, infectious with truly brilliant orchestration. Nicely performed and recorded.
It's an essential disc, indeedie, and much better than the already good Naxos ones. Such wiry energy!
Note that that disc is part of this larger set from Concerto Koln, comprising works by other unknowns from the Classical era.
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0825646988990.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Concerto-K%F6ln-Edition/hnum/6314224)
I like when Sara says, "Indeedie." Heh.
Note that that disc is part of this larger set from Concerto Koln, comprising works by other unknowns from the Classical era.
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0825646988990.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Concerto-K%F6ln-Edition/hnum/6314224) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/578407907_c7A33-M.jpg)
Hmmm
What do you think people?
Nice, and well played too!
Q
Gurn and others, what do you know about Spech? I'm listening to a string quartet of his played by the Festetics and its good stuff :) Never heard his name before and there isn't much info on him to be found.Spech should be recorded by the Swedish Flesch Quartet.
Im surprised how good this quartet is...I've only heard num 2 in g minor.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AV2JR2SHL.jpg)
Pichl???
Pichl???
As far as I could find this composer has only been mentioned twice: once on a cello concertos thread, the other as a joke by D Minor. I couldn't sleep last night so I was listening to the radio and there was a fantastic trumpet concerto. I thought who could this be? It was clearly classical in style, but I've already re-listened to the great trumpet concerto of the classical era just a few days ago, Michael Haydn's concerto, and this was not that.
You sure it wasn't Franz Joseph's?—or are you proposing that Michael really wrote Franz Joseph's music? ;D ::) 8) 0:)
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/596777317_BAFKt-M.jpg)
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/596777317_BAFKt-M.jpg) (http://hoocher.com/Jacques_Louis_David/David_Portrait_of_Henriette_de_Verninac.jpg)
They flipped this picture around for the cd-cover! The woman should be facing the other direction. It is a portrait of Mme Henriette de Verninac, sister of painter Eugene Delacroix, painted by Jean-Louis David. It's in the Paris Louvre, and I visit it every time I'm in Paris. Since it's not in the room with the big famous David pictures (Napoleon's coronation, the Rape of the Sabine Women, &c) it's always a quiet place.
In Mozart's day, the pianist not only assumed the solo part, but also that of the basso continuo.
From some notes of a cd:
Really? So why is it not played that way now?
I see that the "Classical Corner" is widening its contents to include, other than classical composers, classicist paintings... ;)
Visit us in "Gurn's Classical Corner". We discuss music, composers, instruments and other things from the Classical Era.
Well then we need to discuss cafes in 18th century Vienna! It's crucial in our understanding of the great Viennese composers how good their coffee was, and how much they drank on a daily basis! ;D
Well, what could I say? Nice painting! :D How are you, mon ami? New music lately?
I've been very enthusiastic about the discovery of the Naxos recording of three of Rode's violin concertos. I also bought two other Naxos recordings of Kraus' music: a violin concerto (big but not particularly impressive) and some ballet music (wonderful music that shows a spectacular ability for orchestration, as nowhere else - as far as I know - in Kraus' production.
This reminds me of a CD with vocal music by Kraus in the Phoenix Edition label, that includes the finest recording I know of the splendid overture to Olympie.
And you, Gurn? New discoveries?
"... I have been concentrating for the last 2 months on assembling a Complete Haydn (without resorting to a Big Box).
Today on eBay I acquired my first Solomons disk of his symphonies which I look forward to, but it is the divertimentos that are so difficult. Well, that's what makes things interesting. If it was simple, anyone could do it. :D
Great! I'm doing something similar, Gurn. We are brave men. ;D
Comments will be very, very welcomed, when you listen to your Solomons. It has been mistery for me during years.
:)
Giuliani, Mauro (1781-1829) - Guitar Duos - Complete w/ Claudio Maccari & Paolo Pugliese - 3CD set from the Brilliant label - music played on 'original guitars' that belonged to Mauro Giuliani & Nicolo Paganini w/ gut strings and played according to performance techinques of the times! BOY, if you love guitar music & HIP performances, this is a CHEAP experience - listened to the first 2 discs tongiht - just marvelous music, performances, and sound recording - RECOMMENDED! :D
(http://www.earlyromanticguitar.com/erg/pics/Giuliani-duos-MP.jpg)
So they are actual guitars and not lutes? :)
Huh that's interesting, I just didn't know that they made guitars that early. That's cool. :)
So they are actual guitars and not lutes? :)
Wow that looks too precious too play! :o
Yup those are beautiful instruments Dave. I wonder what they sound like?
I'm listening to that cd of Spech string quartets again, and I can't stop wondering, why is there only 1 cd of his but 50 of Dittersdorf or others. It's really good music!
Maybe its just the playing?
I doubt there are 50 CDs of Dittersdorf string quartets!
To my shame, I discovered rather late this splendid thread and I took the time to read through all the pages. I am delighted by the congenial, relaxed and witty atmosphere that reigns here (very classical-ish, so to speak :) ) and by the goldmine of information and recommendations found here. Superb job, gentlemen! Bravo!
In the same spirit I want to share with you two recently discovered Youtube channels that in my opinion fit very well here. The music is very well organized in playlists and I think it might be of interest to you. Enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Meyerbeer1&view=playlists
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=18thCenturyMusic&view=playlists
To my shame, I discovered rather late this splendid thread and I took the time to read through all the pages. I am delighted by the congenial, relaxed and witty atmosphere that reigns here (very classical-ish, so to speak :) ) and by the goldmine of information and recommendations found here. Superb job, gentlemen! Bravo!
In the same spirit I want to share with you two recently discovered Youtube channels that in my opinion fit very well here. The music is very well organized in playlists and I think it might be of interest to you. Enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Meyerbeer1&view=playlists
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=18thCenturyMusic&view=playlists
Oooh, that second link is great! All kinds of stuff, from famous to obscure. Merçi beaucoup!
In the same spirit I want to share with you two recently discovered Youtube channels that in my opinion fit very well here. The music is very well organized in playlists and I think it might be of interest to you. Enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Meyerbeer1&view=playlists
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=18thCenturyMusic&view=playlists
(Classical music is like Chinese food, eat a lot and get hungry again an hour later. :) ).
(Classical music is like Chinese food, eat a lot and get hungry again an hour later.
A book I recently started completed that analogy by saying that vibrato is like MSG. ;)
Gurn, what a great analogy!! Love it. ;D
Don't be a stranger. We're always here. :)
OK, you asked for it! :D
If I may offer my two cents on the use of fortepiano, here they are.
I've always found the whole idea behind it a little problematic. Judging from all available accounts, Mozart and Beethoven constantly complained about the quality of orchestras and instruments, especially keyboards. Just imagine how delighted would have they been had they a modern piano at their disposal! Also, just fancy what could have Haydn done with a modern orchestra, comprising all the winds and brass in their present form!
So, I see no reason to reject the technical progress of instruments when playing their music. I particularly can't stand the sound of fortepiano, an aversion that has only been enhanced when listening to Antonio Rossetti's Piano Concerto (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EGcPb9sWww&feature=PlayList&p=30D65B6654A16A9A&index=0): until the fortepiano came in everything was wonderful, but after the first stroke of the keyboard it was horrendous and I couldn barely made it halfway through the movement. Such a weak and impotent sound, barely audible at times, ruined all the magic for me.
To those who find merit and pleasure in the use of fortepianos, my kudos and envy! I don't think I'll ever come to terms with it. :)
BTW, I never heard Mozart complain about instruments. He very often complained about 'wretched players', but I have yet to read anything (in many dozens of books) about instruments not being up to snuff. Beethoven, it's true, had some problems with his pianos. However, never was it with the sound of it, it was things like the compass, or the durability, or the escapement.
Since your complaint is mainly with the sound, I'm afraid that neither of these stalwart composers can stand by your side. :D
By all means, bring us something new to listen to, and we will return the favor. :)
8)
I'm sure that had they knew what was to come, they'd have complained about the sound, too. ;D >:D
Fair enough. 0:).
A related aside: I discovered the wonderful Paisiello's 4th piano concerto from your recommendation here. It is played on a modern piano. What is it in there that doesn't suit the music? Is the charm and the beauty of the music really lost or altered?
Speaking of which, are you aware of any recording of Rosetti's Concerto on a modern piano? :)
Doh! I hate that argument! :D
... even the Mozart is a fraud thread was better reasoned! :D
It's amusing how ridiculous is to speculate about what a composer would have wanted if the composer had known about the future instruments...
Well, let's take Haydn's case. Upon his own avowal, as an old man he much regretted that he came to know too late the full capabilities of winds and brass (I'm sure Gurn can find the quote in no time). Add to that the innovative spirit he manifested all throughout his life and suddenly the things are not that ridiculous, methinks.
Just my two cents. 0:)
Bottom line, to each his own. I'm sure nobody will mind me listening to Paisiello on a modern piano just as I don't mind
anyone listening to Mozart's PC 20 on fortepiano. 0:)
Now listening to Gaetano Brunetti's Symphony in G minor. 8)
Good taste. Paisiello and Brunetti. We'll make you a Corner Dweller in record time. :D
Well, Haydn did say that. He was talking about Beethoven's compositional style after hearing the 3rd symphony. Of course, Haydn didn't have those instruments to play with for most of his career anyway, so the regret is probably more for that than it is for 'overlooking' them, so to speak.
I got Solomons Haydn symphonies last week, and caught the orchestration for the first time. These are mainly the Stürm und Dräng era works, 35, 38, 39, 49, 58 & 59 which he composed from 1767-69. They are written for strings (2-2-1-1-1), 2 oboes, 4 horns & continuuo (bassoon and harpsichord). That's like 15 players. You have to wonder if he could have gotten quite the impact out of the opening of the Eroica with them... :D
Well, let's take Haydn's case. Upon his own avowal, as an old man he much regretted that he came to know too late the full capabilities of winds and brass (I'm sure Gurn can find the quote in no time). Add to that the innovative spirit he manifested all throughout his life and suddenly the things are not that ridiculous, methinks.
Well of course he couldn't. He missed the flutes, the clarinets, the trumpets and the timpani. Now, I wonder if he missed them because there were no such players at his disposal or because their capabilities in 1769 were far behind of what they could achieve (and did) in 1804-06?
With that logic you can argue that it would be right to change old classics to use cgi special effects ala star wars because you would say "well I bet if they had the effects then, they would have wanted to use them!"
You can't say for a fact that [Bach] wouldn't approve of such a transcription, thus my performance of the Brandenburg #2 on twenty harpsichords is legitimate! :D
Bach (J.S.)* ist verboten hier... >:(
8)
This (*) precision was necessary indeed, Gurn... Otherwise we would miss some of the best music of the period! ;)
I've been craving restraint so classical and baroque have become even more appealing.
SQUONK!
Bach (J.S.) ist verboten hier... >:(
8)
I used to like this place... >:(
;)
Well, if you can make a credible argument that he is a Classical composer
Well, if you can make a credible argument that he is a Classical composer, without resorting to Newmanesque methods, then we'll allow him in. Otherwise, he has at least 10 threads already.... but hey, he had kids. Lot's of 'em. Pick one! :D
8)
Well said. JSB should probably just have a forum dedicated to him, or a Parent forum within "The Music Room"
Just ordered this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kt5X5NYoL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
Gurn, what's the period again? Do you count Schubert, Weber and Arriaga in or out?
I would rather crap in Gurn's thread. ;D
Just ordered this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kt5X5NYoL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
Sweet, Dave! :)
I think you will be very pleased with those, Dave. I got them one at a time, took years. But I'm pleased with them even though they have been supplemented since. :)
8)
Gurn, what's the period again? Do you count Schubert, Weber and Arriaga in or out?