Poll
Question:
Wagner or Verdi?
Option 1: Wagner
votes: 24
Option 2: Verdi
votes: 15
I choose Wagner, even though . . .
Be careful, your head is already noticeably shrinking. Once it implodes, it is really hard to get it back to its original size. Although in your case, that can't be too big anyway,
Quote from: M forever on August 15, 2008, 11:42:38 AM
Be careful, your head is already noticeably shrinking. Once it implodes, it is really hard to get it back to its original size. Although in your case, that can't be too big anyway,
M, you could also try ignoring "poll threads" if you just don't like them or think they're stupid.
Wagner, of course. Tristan and the Ring vs rum-ti-tum? ;D
(Apologies to Verdi fans.)
Verdi, of course...Falstaff, Otello, Rigoletto vs blah-blah-blah ;D
(No apologies necessary, it's a matter of taste.)
"I remember. I had the lasagna."
Verdi sometimes, Wagner other times; depends mostly on the Custerdome and one's relative position to said edifice.
Quote from: M forever on August 15, 2008, 11:42:38 AM
Be careful, your head is already noticeably shrinking. Once it implodes, it is really hard to get it back to its original size. Although in your case, that can't be too big anyway,
M, this has inspired me to create my own stupid poll. :)
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 15, 2008, 12:10:52 PM
Verdi, of course...Falstaff, Otello, Rigoletto vs blah-blah-blah ;D
(No apologies necessary, it's a matter of taste.)
Nice response! You're right, of course, and we can all play nice.
Wagner or Verdi you ask? Oh no you don't >:(!
marvin
This is easy: Wagner
Wagner all the way.
Why not just ask if I want to breathe, or would prefer that my heart beat?
No. Wagner AND Verdi. ;D
Quote from: MDL on August 15, 2008, 11:56:56 AM
Tristan and the Ring vs rum-ti-tum? ;D
Is Aida
rum-ti-tum? Is Otello
rum-ti-tum? Don Carlo? Un ballo in maschera? La forza del destino? I vespri siciliani? Simon Boccanegra? Falstaff?
What are the Verdi's operas you have listened to so far? How many?
Quote from: Sarastro on August 16, 2008, 02:58:14 PM
Is Aida rum-ti-tum? Is Otello rum-ti-tum? Don Carlo? Un ballo in maschera? La forza del destino? I vespri siciliani? Simon Boccanegra? Falstaff?
What are the Verdi's operas you have listened to so far? How many?
Otello, not entirely rum-ti-tum.
Aida, Simon Boccanegra, Nabucco (not included in your list, but the one Verdi I've heard live rather than on CD or telly),
Traviata, rum-ti-tum.
Requiem, exciting, dramatic and a bit rum-ti-tum.
I'm not really being serious about this. I've spent time and money on Verdi, but he just doesn't float my boat. It's my failing, of course. Maybe one day I'll see the light.
PS, I'm sometimes tickled by a curious urge to hear his version of
Macbeth. Dunno why.
Quote from: MDL on August 16, 2008, 04:33:20 PM
Aida, Simon Boccanegra, Nabucco (not included in your list, but the one Verdi I've heard live rather than on CD or telly), Traviata, rum-ti-tum.
So, you compare
Aida and
Simon Boccanegra with
Nabucco and
La Traviata? ::) Please, indicate where rum-ti-tum in Aida is, I really want to hear it. Maybe, the judgement scene? The Nile scene? The final duet? Do they sing a vigorous cabaletta at the end? :D
(I love Nabucco though.)
BTW, while composing Aida, Verdi started usung some of Wagner's musical concepts.
Oh, now MDL, stay away from Macbeth. It has a lot great things in it, but does have a bit of chorus run-di-tum.
As with some others here...I have to have both. Wagnerites will make a claim on behalf of Wagner; there does not seem to be any such organised fan base for Verdi, he dosen't seem to need it.
Mike
Quote from: Wanderer on August 17, 2008, 12:51:03 AM
Is there a definition of this? :P
Are you attacking me for my imperfect English? :P I know it is such but endeavour.
Quote from: Wanderer on August 17, 2008, 12:51:03 AM
Is there a definition of this? :P
I think I now prefer Knight's run-di-tum.
I do enjoy Wagner's music, but could, if necessary, live without it. Verdi is life's blood to me. Take away Verdi and I am sure I would wither and die. This is, of course, my personal preference. I certainly don't expect everyone to feel as I do.
I also believe that Verdi was undoubtedly the greater man; a man with enormous humanity and compassion. It comes out in almost every bar of his work. Verdi I would love to have met. Wagner I'd probably have run a million miles from.
Quote from: Sarastro on August 17, 2008, 01:04:21 AM
Are you attacking me for my imperfect English?
Of course not. I'm just curious about this
rum-dum-tam-tim-tong thing. ;D
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on August 17, 2008, 01:25:54 AM
I also believe that Verdi was undoubtedly the greater man; a man with enormous humanity and compassion. It comes out in almost every bar of his work. Verdi I would love to have met. Wagner I'd probably have run a million miles from.
I don't think anybody would argue with you on that point. Is anybody going to stand up and say that Wagner
wasn't a complete git?
Tasos,
If you listen to the earlier chorus work in Macbeth you will hear; uninspired padding to get through the requirements of having to use the chorus and embedding them into the narrative. I think three witches, three murderers and different music would have been more effective. But it remains one of my favourite operas. So, not unpleasant music, but a bit like painting by numbers with bounce.
Mike
Is rum-ti-dum the same thing as oom pah pah, or is there some subtle disctinction? Or is it something else entirely?
I think oom pah pah is more brass based, perhaps even more....... Wagnerian.
Mike
Quote from: MDL on August 17, 2008, 02:37:11 AM
I don't think anybody would argue with you on that point. Is anybody going to stand up and say that Wagner wasn't a complete git?
He wasn't.
* sitting down again *
Quote from: MDL on August 17, 2008, 02:37:11 AM
I don't think anybody would argue with you on that point. Is anybody going to stand up and say that Wagner wasn't a complete git?
Quote from: Jezetha on August 17, 2008, 05:46:23 AM
He wasn't.
Yes. "Git" fails to capture the loathsomeness of Wagner's character.
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on August 17, 2008, 01:25:54 AM
I do enjoy Wagner's music, but could, if necessary, live without it. Verdi is life's blood to me. Take away Verdi and I am sure I would wither and die. This is, of course, my personal preference. I certainly don't expect everyone to feel as I do.
And that is how the advocates of virtually every other composer feel (with the exception of one besotted Elgar fan). Why is it that only a perverse subset of Wagner fans tiresomely insist that their idol was the greatest and anyone who doesn't agree is an idiot?
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 17, 2008, 05:55:06 AM
Yes. "Git" fails to capture the loathsomeness of Wagner's character.
Nice one.
Still, I can't get worked up about the loathsomeness or otherwise of a man who has been safely under the ground since 1883 and whose work - and that's the thing that counts - shows a power, sensitivity, humanity (mostly) and passion that, in the final analysis, redeem him. Why should great artists be saints? It's wonderful if they are lovely human beings, too, but that's a bonus for their contemporaries. Enjoy the fact that you belong to posterity and that the man Wagner can't pester you.
But if you regard his
work as a pest, well, then you are in trouble, because his work is here to stay. You have my sympathy. ;)
(And no, I don't worship at the Wagnerian altar. I am a rabid polytheist.)
Those of us with a healthy (read: normal) Wagner appreciation have an uphill battle when it comes to appreciating the man. We're either slammed by the "perverse subset" for enjoying Wagner's music for all the wrong reasons or we're slammed by the Wagner detractors for liking the music for all the wrong reasons.
We can't win but it certainly builds character. ;D
Quote from: Wendell_E on August 17, 2008, 03:17:01 AM
oom pah pah
That is the characteristic I used to in Russia. But I presume Verdi has
little variety, surely, La Donna e mobile and Libiamo are
oom pah pah, and no, non udrai rimproveri or Merche dilette amiche -
run-di-tum. :D
Quote from: MDL on August 17, 2008, 02:37:11 AM
Is anybody going to stand up and say that Wagner wasn't a complete git?
Eventually, anybody is going to stand up and say we discuss Wagner's music, not his personality. For some reason people love to address to this argument very often, although it is out of proportion and not entirely true. :'(
Quote from: Jezetha on August 17, 2008, 06:08:54 AM
Still, I can't get worked up about the loathsomeness or otherwise of a man who has been safely under the ground since 1883 and whose work - and that's the thing that counts - shows a power, sensitivity, humanity (mostly) and passion that, in the final analysis, redeem him. Why should great artists be saints? It's wonderful if they are lovely human beings, too, but that's a bonus for their contemporaries. Enjoy the fact that you belong to posterity and that the man Wagner can't pester you.
What?! I am shocked - shocked and appalled - that you can't flog a dead horse, or, in this case, castigate a man who has been dead these 125 years for character flaws. It's
so easy, and it's guaranteed to put the discussion firmly under your control because no one really wants to be seen as an apologist for a man who was not, shall we say, a shining exemplar of anything particularly good in his personal life. It's also an effective endgame strategy, since there's little to discuss on the subject.
Indeed, bringing Wagner's character into the discussion is more or less like saying "Puppies are great." Almost no one will disagree with you, either because they agree or because they are afraid of seeming awful, and there's really nothing more to discuss except variations on how great a given puppy or breed of puppy is.
Quote from: Jezetha on August 17, 2008, 06:08:54 AM
Nice one.
Still, I can't get worked up about the loathsomeness or otherwise of a man who has been safely under the ground since 1883 and whose work - and that's the thing that counts - shows a power, sensitivity, humanity (mostly) and passion that, in the final analysis, redeem him. Why should great artists be saints? It's wonderful if they are lovely human beings, too, but that's a bonus for their contemporaries. Enjoy the fact that you belong to posterity and that the man Wagner can't pester you.
But if you regard his work as a pest, well, then you are in trouble, because his work is here to stay. You have my sympathy. ;)
(And no, I don't worship at the Wagnerian altar. I am a rabid polytheist.)
Hear hear! What a pithy and humane post.
I found it very helpful to "memorize" the names of Verdi's operas in chronological order or at least keep a list handy. When you see that La Traviata, Rigoletto, Il Trovatore, were from his middle period, you will also know that the music from one opera is similar in style to one of the others.
In the same way Nabucco will be somewhat similar to Atilla and Ernani. Macbeth will be more advanced stylewise than either of them. It helps to see how Verdi was constantly improving at his craft.
I was always trying to answer the question: who is better - Verdi or Wagner? It was interesting to see that Wagner's early works were copying others' styles. The Dutchman had individual arias for the singers like the Italian operas did. Lohengrin has massive choruses like the French grand operas. When he writes The Ring and Tristan, he finally writes his music as he talks about it when writing his dissertations about how the music and the words intertwine and the scenery and everything else is all supposed to become one work of art.
While Wagner is writing operas as mentioned above, Verdi is writing operas in the Italian way, more like The Dutchman and Donizetti but increasingly improving his music writing. His early operas, as a friend said one time, were "oomp-pa-pa". Eventually he leaves that style behind. In Otello, he beautifully repeats the phrase about the kiss a second time at the ending of that opera. In that way he was copying Wagner's style.
At the same time, Wagner is writing Die Meistersinger and Gotterdammurung which are in the style Verdi has been using of individual arias for the singers. So now we have Wagner using Verdi's style and Verdi using Wagner's style. In Verdi's final opera, Falstaff, he has really switched over to the use of many recurring motifs and being through-composed as Wagner has been using all along.
I can't say anything about Parsifal because I don't know it well enough yet.
Why are Wagnerites so rude about Verdi?
Why this constant need to prove who is the better of the two?
I could say that what Verdi has in his rum-ti-tum, Wagner more than makes up for with his pretentious longeurs. I like rum-ti-tum.
Wagner greatly admired Auber. Yes, I know, you wouldn't think so but try 'Die Feen.' Is this Auber or what?
Verdi was frequently accused of being in the line of Donizetti and his early operas are offered as evidence.
Not Bellini, Mercadante, Rossini, the Riccis or any other Italian opera composer operating at the same time as Verdi, note.
In fact Wagner stole copiously from Halevy, was heavily influenced by Marschner and Weber even up to and including Tristan but it is always the comparison with his completely different counterpart in Italy that prevails.
Actually, both fell under the spell of Meyerbeer and that's an essay on its own.
I shall vote for Verdi if only in the hope of balancing it out a bit but I wouldn't want to be without either although Verdi pulls more of the emotional strings for me.
Quote from: Hector on August 18, 2008, 05:49:51 AM
Why are Wagnerites so rude about Verdi?
Which post(s) are you specifically referring to? I didn't really read that in this thread.
I have heard most of Verdi's works. I haven't heard
Macbeth, Ernani, or Vespri. I find that I love
Don Carlo and
Ballo and I don't really like anything else. To me most of the time the music is just too flowery for me, like Gilda's
Caro Nome.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on August 18, 2008, 06:07:32 AM
Which post(s) are you specifically referring to? I didn't really read that in this thread.
I have heard most of Verdi's works. I haven't heard Macbeth, Ernani, or Vespri. I find that I love Don Carlo and Ballo and I don't really like anything else. To me most of the time the music is just too flowery for me, like Gilda's Caro Nome.
The accusations about rum-ti-tum.
Verdi was accused by his critics of looking backwards into the time of Mozart when 'Rigoletto' received its first performance and the floridity of 'Caro nome' may have been one of the reasons for the judgement, although the critics view seems extraordinary, today.
I always assume that 'Un Ballo' is a run-in for the greater 'La Forza del Destino.'
As I have said before the sheer power of some of the early operas, rum-ti-tum or not, never fails to hold my interest, although I could do without 'Un Giorno de Regno' and, except for the overture, 'La Battaglia di Legnano'.
It's an amazing thing, when you think of it, that the two greatest musical dramatists of the 19th century* were born in the same year. It's like the gods got together in 1813 and said "Let there be opera".
I love the both of them too much to set one against the other.
* (with few rivals in any other century)
It all depends on whether you like spaghetti or sauerkraut. I've noticed allot of Germans like spaghetti but non tanto Italianos like sauerkraut.
Personally I think sauerkraut is more purifying and less fattening than spaghetti! There is simply more brain power behind the project.
1685 was the year that both G F Handel and J S Bach were born. Another odd coincidence.
Mike
Quote from: max on August 24, 2008, 11:51:35 PM
It all depends on whether you like spaghetti or sauerkraut. I've noticed allot of Germans like spaghetti but non tanto Italianos like sauerkraut.
Personally I think sauerkraut is more purifying and less fattening than spaghetti! There is simply more brain power behind the project.
The redemptive qualities of sauerkraut are legendary.
Quote from: Jezetha on August 25, 2008, 12:52:54 AM
The redemptive qualities of sauerkraut are legendary.
Absolutely! It should have its own theme in the Ring Cycle don't you think?
Bravo, max! ;D
Quote from: knight on August 25, 2008, 12:14:21 AM
1685 was the year that both G F Handel and J S Bach were born. Another odd coincidence.
Mike
...and Domenico Scarlatti!!!
Quote from: max on August 25, 2008, 09:38:41 PM
Absolutely! It should have its own theme in the Ring Cycle don't you think?
The Cabbage of Doom
Quote from: karlhenning on August 26, 2008, 08:33:51 AM
The Cabbage of Doom
Harry Potter and the Master of Bloat (that is what happens if you eat too much sauerkraut, isn't it?).
Quote from: karlhenning on August 26, 2008, 08:33:51 AM
The Cabbage of Doom
A quiet theme on the low brass? So quiet, in fact, you're not too sure what you've heard, but you don't want to be indiscreet about it?
Quote from: karlhenning on August 26, 2008, 08:33:51 AM
The Cabbage of Doom
...I'm sorry! I thoroughly missed the Harry Potter cyle. Some people are experts at only ONE thing you know! Since you brought it up, I'm beginning to wonder what the Leitmotive for the "Cabbage of Doom" would sound like?? One can ALWAYS blame it on Wagner since Verdi did not write Leitmotives!
One can ALWAYS blame it on Wagner since Verdi did not write Leitmotives!
[/quote]
That's correct. He wrote recurring themes like the one that signifies Posa's and Carlo's friendship, for example.
Never mind the Krautmotif, what about those Wagner Tubers?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5e/Root_tubers_of_Dahlia_variabilis.png/543px-Root_tubers_of_Dahlia_variabilis.png)
Quote from: lukeottevanger on August 27, 2008, 06:09:46 AM
Never mind the Krautmotif, what about those Wagner Tubers?
;D
Wagner bashing :o on a Wagner or Verdi thread ::).....Have you no shame!.....BLASPHEMOUS $:) $:)!
marvinbrown $:) $:)
Quote from: marvinbrown on August 27, 2008, 03:42:07 PM
Wagner bashing :o on a Wagner or Verdi thread ::).....Have you no shame!.....BLASPHEMOUS $:) $:)!
Not bashing, Marvin, but even worse...
HUMOR!
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 27, 2008, 03:55:25 PM
Not bashing, Marvin, but even worse...HUMOR!
:D yes I guess so too......
marvin
Quote from: lukeottevanger on August 27, 2008, 06:09:46 AM
Never mind the Krautmotif, what about those Wagner Tubers?
Quote from: marvinbrown on August 27, 2008, 03:42:07 PM
Wagner bashing :o on a Wagner or Verdi thread ::).....Have you no shame!.....BLASPHEMOUS $:) $:)!
marvinbrown $:) $:)
That wasn't a bashing; that was a strike at the "root." ;D ;D
Isn't the whole point of an A vs. B thread to bash one or the other?
Quote from: jochanaan on September 06, 2008, 05:25:28 PM
That wasn't a bashing; that was a strike at the "root." ;D ;D
LOL I love that play on words jachanaan :D!
marvin
Quote from: Wendell_E on September 07, 2008, 02:11:32 AM
Isn't the whole point of an A vs. B thread to bash one or the other?
Only if your only form of defence is attack.