Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we have a thread on exactly this topic.
(https://shop.new-art.nl/content/img/new_products/1505212066.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81bgP8jouwL._SX355_.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51IEExd3ZtL._SY355_.jpg)
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0581/3921/products/9216_large.jpg?v=1430939657)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51FdPaHG-pL._SY400_.jpg)
I think both of those are rather nice.
Quote from: Mandryka on October 27, 2019, 11:20:41 PM
I think both of those are rather nice.
And above, what do you think of Charlmeau? It got a bad review on music web but I like it.
I didn't like this at first but I like it much better now. He takes his time with Tombeau De Monsieur De Blancrocher and makes a real journey of it.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71eAYasi-EL._SX466_.jpg)
Except for Bach and D. Scarlatti I am not too fond of baroque on the piano. I have the Byrd/Gibbons disc by Gould but don't remember much about it. I used to quite like Handel suites with Richter/Gavrilov have somewhat sunk in my favor and I never bothered to get another one on piano (like Schirmer or Ugorskaja (anthology)) although they do sound attractive in samples. (And the sound of the Richter is not great, so they might be better choices in this respect.) I have some F. Couperin and Rameau in the Marcelle Meyer box which is enjoyable but again also enough for me not to actively look for more as I seem to clearly prefer the harpsichord, especially for music earlier than late/high baroque. Not sure if one can get the Meyer Couperin/Rameau/Scarlatti separately.
Great idea of a thread!
Quote from: milk on October 28, 2019, 01:22:15 AM
I didn't like this at first
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71eAYasi-EL._SX466_.jpg)
I didn't, either, but never had a second listen. Should I?
I heartily recommend these:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/414rbzaKoDL._SX355_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71iwsnMCDZL._SL1200_.jpg)
Quote from: Florestan on October 28, 2019, 02:38:11 AM
I heartily recommend these:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/414rbzaKoDL._SX355_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71iwsnMCDZL._SL1200_.jpg)
I do love this.
I have enjoyed these discs a lot:
[asin]B0034JV6D4[/asin]
[asin]B00U2OT032[/asin]
3 volumes of these and I wonder if they're any good.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71ZRVA%2Bd7PL._SL1000_.jpg)
But I am much impressed with this one. I hated what he did with Bach but really enjoy this:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61DxaEJwe-L._SR600%2C315_PIWhiteStrip%2CBottomLeft%2C0%2C35_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg)
another one I think Mandyrka turned me on to:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/414rbzaKoDL._SX355_.jpg)
Truly weird stuff.
Quote from: milk on October 28, 2019, 04:39:48 AM
3 volumes of these and I wonder if they're any good.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71ZRVA%2Bd7PL._SL1000_.jpg)
I don't think so. It is dead straight, it's as if we're looking over the shoulder of a piano teacher just run through the scores for a student. The music, the poetry, has disappeared, and all we're left with is the notes.
Quote from: Mandryka on October 28, 2019, 05:41:19 AM
I don't think so. It is dead straight, it's as if we're looking over the shoulder of a piano teacher just run through the scores for a student. The music, the poetry, has disappeared, and all we're left with is the notes.
It's amazing someone could tackle all the books, such a big project, but not have more of a developed view of it. I've no idea but I'd like to think this repertoire would get you noticed. How do you feel about the two Louis Couperin recordings that came out?
Quote from: milk on October 27, 2019, 03:25:22 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we have a thread on exactly this topic.
This is a pet interest of mine, so I started a thread on it years ago. Sadly it didn't get very far:
https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13515.msg333498.html#msg333498
Today, I'll throw Tharaud's Couperin and Rameau into the mix.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 29, 2019, 06:04:04 AM
This is a pet interest of mine, so I started a thread on it years ago. Sadly it didn't get very far:
https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13515.msg333498.html#msg333498.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 16, 2009, 10:21:33 PM
I admit that I don't know much about tuning systems, though I am aware there are differences. My problem is I'm just not crazy about the sound of the harpsichord. Last night I was listening to some Froberger played by Leonhardt, and thinking, This is good music, but I would like it better if it were played on an instrument I actually enjoy listening to.
The way I learned to love the harpsichord was by getting to love its music and then slowly realising that the instrument and its music constitute an organic entity because the music is designed in a harpsichord idiom, to some degree as to sound but even more as to instrumental technique.
Quote from: (: premont :) on October 29, 2019, 05:05:29 PM
The way I learned to love the harpsichord was by getting to love its music and then slowly realising that the instrument and its music constitute an organic entity because the music is designed in a harpsichord idiom, to some degree as to sound but even more as to instrumental technique.
In the 10 years since I wrote that post, I have conquered my harpsichordophobia. But I did it by hearing some really well recorded harpsichords, and realizing thereby that a harpsichord could indeed sound good. Also I became aware that there existed big differences among harpsichords, and the range of sound among them was much greater than among pianos.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 29, 2019, 06:04:04 AM
This is a pet interest of mine, so I started a thread on it years ago. Sadly it didn't get very far:
https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13515.msg333498.html#msg333498
Today, I'll throw Tharaud's Couperin and Rameau into the mix.
Ah! Well, I hope we can keep this, or that, alive. I love this music on period instruments but I also enjoy when it succeeds on piano. Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I can see this repertoire being taken up by more pianists.
For the Handel keyboard suites, the only version I have (and the only one I have ever heard) is Richter & Gavrilov. It completely satisfies, though having hung around GMG again for a while I've lately thought that I might pick up a harpsichord version for comparison. ;D
(http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0886/9226/products/richtergavrilovhandelemibox03963_ab1dfcfe-e0c8-46d2-8ec5-1422dbcabfba_1024x1024.jpg?v=1569047657)
Another set of baroque works that I've always enjoyed on piano is Scarlatti. Horowitz is justly famous here, but I most often pull one of the several Naxos discs, where they are doing all of the sonatas, each disc by a different pianist. Good stuff, and an easy way to take one's Scarlatti in reasonable size doses, and check out different approaches at the same time.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/514lx2zK57L._SY355_.jpg)
I'm not sure if Scarlatti is early enough to be applicable to this thread, but since you brought him up, I've been going through a fair bit of the Scarlatti-on-piano (and some of the harpsichord, but there's more piano stuff) catalogue and have a number of recommendations.
In first place I'd put Aline Zylberajch's disc on Ambronay, on a Cristofori instrument from the 1740s. Maybe even more for the instrument than the interpreter, but both are very fine. There is a bit more Scarlatti on fortepiano but less than one might imagine (one disc by Linda Nicholson and one by David Schrader, neither of which has made as much of an impression on me, and a few of the sonatas in the Belder integral).
Among the "classic" piano recordings alongside Horowitz I'd put Maria Tipo, the "Neapolitan Horowitz", whose Scarlatti I prefer to Horowitz's actually, Marcelle Meyer, and Christian Zacharias's EMI recordings—would consider all three essential for any Scarlatti enthusiast. Anne Quéffelec is also good, although better on Mirare than Erato.
From the Naxos series the only pianists I've liked have been Benjamin Frith (vol. 5), Evgeny Zarafiants (vol. 6), Soyeon Kate Lee (vols. 8 and 21), Goran Filipec (vol. 19) and a standalone disc by Balázs Szokolay. I may give the remaining volumes more detailed listens at some point though, as this was based on sampling of fairly brief snippets.
Nikolai Demidenko, Sergei Babayan and Michelangelo Carbonara also have very good individual albums which may or may not be easy to find. Mikhail Pletnev, Claire Huangci and Yevgeny Sudbin are a bit weird but committed to whatever they're doing, so that may or may not be of interest.
As an only version the Gavrilov/Richter is not very satisfying for the Handel, even if one likes the playing and is not bothered by the rather mediocre sound because two of the more famous pieces are missing. Namely, the B flat major suite HWV 434 Brahms took the variation theme from and the Chaconne HWV 435. There is a great disc with Pinnock on harpsichord (Archiv, also a re-issue with that grey-silver design) that includes both. As I said above, I also didn't bother with more piano recordings of this music because I prefer harpsichord. Although Schirmer's completish set and a few anthologies are highly regarded.
Quote from: amw on October 30, 2019, 01:10:12 PM
I'm not sure if Scarlatti is early enough to be applicable to this thread, but since you brought him up, I've been going through a fair bit of the Scarlatti-on-piano (and some of the harpsichord, but there's more piano stuff) catalogue and have a number of recommendations.
In first place I'd put Aline Zylberajch's disc on Ambronay, on a Cristofori instrument from the 1740s. Maybe even more for the instrument than the interpreter, but both are very fine. There is a bit more Scarlatti on fortepiano but less than one might imagine (one disc by Linda Nicholson and one by David Schrader, neither of which has made as much of an impression on me, and a few of the sonatas in the Belder integral).
Among the "classic" piano recordings alongside Horowitz I'd put Maria Tipo, the "Neapolitan Horowitz", whose Scarlatti I prefer to Horowitz's actually, Marcelle Meyer, and Christian Zacharias's EMI recordings—would consider all three essential for any Scarlatti enthusiast. Anne Quéffelec is also good, although better on Mirare than Erato.
From the Naxos series the only pianists I've liked have been Benjamin Frith (vol. 5), Evgeny Zarafiants (vol. 6), Soyeon Kate Lee (vols. 8 and 21), Goran Filipec (vol. 19) and a standalone disc by Balázs Szokolay. I may give the remaining volumes more detailed listens at some point though, as this was based on sampling of fairly brief snippets.
Nikolai Demidenko, Sergei Babayan and Michelangelo Carbonara also have very good individual albums which may or may not be easy to find. Mikhail Pletnev, Claire Huangci and Yevgeny Sudbin are a bit weird but committed to whatever they're doing, so that may or may not be of interest.
Did you ever hear this?
(https://img.discogs.com/-i-NmJJl-agTS7K1alU52lwx-GY=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-7510921-1501370086-6308.jpeg.jpg)
Yes, I have it. I like it reasonably well but need to revisit for more detailed comments.
Quote from: amw on October 30, 2019, 02:30:51 PM
Yes, I have it. I like it reasonably well but need to revisit for more detailed comments.
It's so well received by piano people that I guess there must be something special, but it has always left me neither hot nor cold. Including now -- I put the second LP on after making the post. But as I say, the pianophiles seem to love it.
I've got one Demidenko CD but there are two. The one I have is so good that I'm slightly tempted to get the other, even though I'm not much interested in the music, the performance seems so agreeable.
I certainly don't love the Bonaventura, although I do appreciate the repertoire, and a relisten to K417 left me unsatisfied with his articulation and phrasing. That said, it was definitely OK, so maybe I liked other sonatas better and that's what my historic positive opinion was based on.
I didn't know there was a second Demidenko recording.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51kha8mLR0L._AC_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/514hF2ERDiL._AC_.jpg)
I think we both have the green; the red is detailed here
https://www.discogs.com/Scarlatti-Demidenko-Keyboard-Sonatas/release/3389071
Indeed—I've ordered the Sanctus one. About $30 including shipping, but I've bought more expensive CDs this year. (Why I'm trusted with money at all is an open question.)
Quote from: amw on October 30, 2019, 04:01:42 PM
Indeed—I've ordered the Sanctus one.
You are a very bad influence.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51NP%2BwIiZML._SR600%2C315_PIWhiteStrip%2CBottomLeft%2C0%2C35_PIAmznPrime%2CBottomLeft%2C0%2C-5_PIStarRatingFIVE%2CBottomLeft%2C360%2C-6_SR600%2C315_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg)
Very enjoyable.
Quote from: amw on October 30, 2019, 04:01:42 PM
Indeed—I've ordered the Sanctus one. About $30 including shipping, but I've bought more expensive CDs this year. (Why I'm trusted with money at all is an open question.)
Great quote. It seems to extend to the majority of GMGers!
Quote from: Mandryka on October 30, 2019, 03:03:27 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51kha8mLR0L._AC_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/514hF2ERDiL._AC_.jpg)
I think we both have the green; the red is detailed here
https://www.discogs.com/Scarlatti-Demidenko-Keyboard-Sonatas/release/3389071
He also has a couple sonatas on his Live from Wigmore Hall disc. I've always liked them. Not sure how he plays a whole grouping, but these are quite delicate and beautiful.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 05, 2019, 03:42:25 AM
He also has a couple sonatas on his Live from Wigmore Hall disc. I've always liked them. Not sure how he plays a whole grouping, but these are quite delicate and beautiful.
I was at those concerts!
Quote from: Mandryka on November 05, 2019, 04:06:44 AM
I was at those concerts!
That must have been pretty special. The discs are uniformly excellent.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 05, 2019, 04:07:42 AM
That must have been pretty special. The discs are uniformly excellent.
I saw him a lot at the time. Some unforgettable concerts -- Schumann esp.
He was always drunk, always a blond in tow.
For Scarlatti on the piano, this is the recording to which I return most often:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81XpeU28O-L._SL1500_.jpg)
For some even earlier music on piano, Bruce Brubaker played some selections from the Codex Faenza alongside some Terry Riley. The Faenza music sounds significantly more "modern" but some of that may be the interpretation; Brubaker plays everything like it's Stravinsky.
Quote from: Mandryka on October 30, 2019, 02:38:37 PM
It's so well received by piano people that I guess there must be something special, but it has always left me neither hot nor cold. Including now -- I put the second LP on after making the post. But as I say, the pianophiles seem to love it.
This came up in random listening today and I thought it was actually quite exceptional:
https://www.youtube.com/v/aes-vDTgbms
Bonaventura Scarlatti K446.
His tempo is approximately 50% slower than average (Scarlatti's marking is "Allegrissimo"—this certainly is not that); there's almost no counterpoint to bring out, the sonata is written almost entirely in two parts. I think it's exceptional partly because of the choice of tempo and partly because of the command of line and phrasing. Also a good use of piano sound in general.
(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/t_900/822252241525.jpg)
Released last week. Initial impresssions are that this is fun and easy to listen to -- but then I enjoyed his Gibbons.
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8728912--the-long-17th-century-a-cornucopia-of-early-keyboard-music-2cd
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81ceiUHnXgL._SX355_.jpg)
Is there much love for these performances of Handel's Keyboard Suites from a live performance at a French festival in 1979? I'm not sure who organized this concert, the idea of Richter playing half, Gavrilov playing the other half. Just seems unusual to me. But the results are brilliant. A bit too much background noise, but this is Richter we're talking so that is to be expected.
Quote from: vers la flamme on February 23, 2020, 04:10:28 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81ceiUHnXgL._SX355_.jpg)
Is there much love for these performances of Handel's Keyboard Suites from a live performance at a French festival in 1979? I'm not sure who organized this concert, the idea of Richter playing half, Gavrilov playing the other half. Just seems unusual to me. But the results are brilliant. A bit too much background noise, but this is Richter we're talking so that is to be expected.
That set has long been one of my guilty pleasures. Pretty well as un-HIP as it's possible to be, but brilliant playing, as you say.
As I wrote further above, I used to like Richter/Gavrilov more than I do now. But admittedly it's been quite a while that I listened to them. As for the splitting, Richter did have strange gaps in his repertoire and there are a bunch of other live recordings of Handel suites but they are always from the same subset. And it still does not explain why two of the more famous pieces, the B flat suite Brahms took his variation theme from and the Chaconne are missing. Maybe Gavrilov didn't like them either.
This is maybe even more interesting than the EMI set
(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/027/MI0001027060.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
It contains Suites 2,9,12,14,16.
Now the reason I say it's interesting is that the suites which aren't part of the "Great Eight" have problematic scores, apparently the keyboard player needs to intervene quite a lot to make sense of them -- I've never explored the details of this, I'm just reporting what I've heard.
Most harpsichord players have been shy of Handel's music apart from the Great Eight. But at least two "great" pianists have rushed in where angels fear to tread: Richter and Heidsieck.
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODcyODkxMi4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1ODA4OTcwNTZ9)
He says
Quotebecause one can voice so transparently on the piano, it is possible to take the
Weckmann Canzon III (4) at a faster tempo than would make aural sense on organ or harpsichord, discovering a new palate and vibrant textures for
this work, replete with repeated notes.
Well, he knows what he's talking about, and I'd say he's right - though I'm not at all clear why it can't be played at his tempo on a harpsichord.
QuoteAnd new expressive vistas open
up when one challenges oneself to execute the double notes and figuration work in Sweelinck's Mein junges Leben with a fleetness and lightness that
still conveys a sense of fragility even as the writing becomes denser – virtually impossible on the organ or harpsichord
He may be right here, though he goes on to say that on organ and harpsichord " these passages can so
easily sound either laboured or over-busy" - which I don't agree with. For me this piece is best on clavichord à la Siegbert Rampe!
I couldn't help but wish that Daniel-Ben Pienaar had chosen a more characterful piano, he's compromised by the extremely pure and even sounds of the instrument.
Quote from: Mandryka on April 15, 2020, 12:50:31 AM
I couldn't help but wish that Daniel-Ben Pienaar had chosen a more characterful piano, he's compromised by the extremely pure and even sounds of the instrument.
Isn't it so, that the playing of renaissance and baroque music on the piano more than anything else reveals, how much character the sound of the piano lacks compared to the sound of harpsichord and organ (period instruments the most). And that this may be one of the reasons why pianists tend to compensate for this fact by using a lot of pianistic measures. And then there is the problem with the tuning. Most pianists use equal tuning, which kills this music. I do not know how Pienaar has got his piano tuned BTW.
Quote from: (: premont :) on April 15, 2020, 01:08:06 AM
Isn't it so, that the playing of renaissance and baroque music on the piano more than anything else reveals, how much character the sound of the piano lacks compared to the sound of harpsichord and organ (period instruments the most). And that this may be one of the reasons why pianists tend to compensate for this fact by using a lot of pianistic measures. And then there is the problem with the tuning. Most pianists use equal tuning, which kills this music. I do not know how Pienaar has got his piano tuned BTW.
I'll email him, see what he has to say about these things.
And he's replied, saying basically that he'd love to work with a better piano and with different tuning but he can't because he just doesn't have the money to make it happen
QuoteThat is just the normal reality for musicians without major name recognition. At the same time I have realised my time to be productive as a musician is now, while my technique and ideas are there; so I can't wait for those 'ideal' opportunities to arise - especially since I just do not have the stomach or talent for the kind of self-promotion that seems the order of the day now - but must do the work now, even though it may be less than ideal...
Quote from: (: premont :) on April 15, 2020, 01:08:06 AM
Isn't it so, that the playing of renaissance and baroque music on the piano more than anything else reveals, how much character the sound of the piano lacks compared to the sound of harpsichord and organ (period instruments the most). And that this may be one of the reasons why pianists tend to compensate for this fact by using a lot of pianistic measures. And then there is the problem with the tuning. Most pianists use equal tuning, which kills this music. I do not know how Pienaar has got his piano tuned BTW.
I'm in complete agreement except for the tuning part - I'm actually quite skeptical that a different, unequal tuning will change much at all. I'd still rather listen to the music on, say, a good organ tuned in equal (e.g. Alkmaar Larenskerk) than on a piano tuned in 1/4 comma meantone. The sound of an organ or harpsichord is just often much more intrinsically interesting than that of a piano.
... But it will be a great experiment!
I do think that Sweelinck works quite well on piano, equal or not for some reason.
I do sometimes play Sweelinck on piano but usually not when anyone else is around and I still have mixed feelings about it. Some pieces obviously work better than others.
I have the Pienaar 17th Century set and enjoy what I've heard despite a strong suspicion that it's lacking in depth....
(Unequally tuned pianos usually just end up sounding out of tune ime, unless you're using something "radical" like pythagorean just intonation. Piano resonance is always a little out of tune to begin with even in equal temperament)
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on April 15, 2020, 12:37:35 PM
I'm in complete agreement except for the tuning part - I'm actually quite skeptical that a different, unequal tuning will change much at all. I'd still rather listen to the music on, say, a good organ tuned in equal (e.g. Alkmaar Larenskerk) than on a piano tuned in 1/4 comma meantone. The sound of an organ or harpsichord is just often much more intrinsically interesting than that of a piano.
... But it will be a great experiment!
I do think that Sweelinck works quite well on piano, equal or not for some reason.
Yes, some restored historical organs sound so intrinsically interesting, that one almost forgets the temperament whether equal or not. But essentially I hear the equal tuning a bit out of tune all the time, and I prefer relevant tunings, which for instance means strict mean tone (1/4 comma) for Sweelinck.
Piet Kee has recorded some Sweelinck on the Schnitger/Alkmaar organ, and it sounds nice, but in some way the ccolorful character of the music is nivelled out. Concerning the Alkmaar organ the equal tuning may be considered authentic, since it was tuned in this way already by F.C.Schnitger But his time was another than Sweelinck's.
I don't think I would find Sweelinck on the piano that interesting, and just meant to say that the equal tuning of a piano adds to the incompatibility of the instrument with this music. However a mean tone tuned piano would not solve the problem of the pianos dull tone, which is the main problem.
Quote from: amw on April 15, 2020, 01:07:14 PM
I do sometimes play Sweelinck on piano but usually not when anyone else is around and I still have mixed feelings about it. Some pieces obviously work better than others.
Many years ago I also played some Sweelinck on piano, I recall that some of the Lied-variations worked better than the chromatic fantasy.
Quote from: amw link=topic
Unequally tuned pianos usually just end up sounding out of tune ime, unless you're using something "radical" like pythagorean just intonation. Piano resonance is always a little out of tune to begin with even in equal temperament)
I think it is the equal tuning which makes it sound a little out of tune. And the fact that a piano often gets out of tune a little bit rather shortly after being tuned. There is a recording of the WTC by Hans Georg Schäfer, who plays on a piano tuned in a modified mean tone temperature - I do not precisely recall which one, maybe a Kirnberger tuning - but this piano sounds not out of tune at all.
Quote from: Mandryka on April 15, 2020, 04:12:44 AM
And he's replied, saying basically that he'd love to work with a better piano and with different tuning but he can't because he just doesn't have the money to make it happen
I thought his recordings were generally well received and reviewed (Beethoven sonatas, WTC). But his problems must reflect that recording CDs is a rather unprofitable thing. In a way he is a self promoting idealist like Rübsam with his lute-harpsichord recordings.
Quote from: (: premont :) on April 15, 2020, 01:37:47 PM
I think it is the equal tuning which makes it sound a little out of tune. And the fact that a piano often gets out of tune a little bit rather shortly after being tuned. There is a recording of the WTC by Hans Georg Schäfer, who plays on a piano tuned in a modified mean tone temperature - I do not precisely recall which one, maybe a Kirnberger tuning - but this piano sounds not out of tune at all.
Yes, I should have said "especially in equal temperament", I've never worked out exactly what's
wrong with the equal tempered piano but octaves, sixths and sevenths all sound too narrow...
That said a lot of unequal temperaments don't seem to work that well either, at least in the few recordings I've heard. I don't know the Schäfer Bach.
Interestingly enough Frescobaldi and I think Froberger advocated equal temperament, and it was already frequently used for lute and viol literature (where the fretting makes it much easier to calculate). Werckmeister eventually gave up all his temperaments for equal too.
Sometimes I have the suspicion that we are much more interested in temperaments today compared to the past where they were simply seen as solutions to a practical problem.
That being said, I do prefer mean, or mean-sounding (e.g. Kellner or Werckmeister III) temperaments in general. But I actually can't hear the difference between equal and lots of the milder temperaments (e.g. Neidhardt III, Silbermann-sorge etc.) and would rather have equal at that point.
The Sweelinck chromatic fantasy actually doesn't use 1/4 meantone, since it requires d-sharp rather than the e-flat that strict 1/4 uses (one of the reasons why Dirksen thinks that it is meant for harpsichord, rather than organ, since retuning a harpsichord is much easier than retuning an organ). In the Renaissance, they made quite a fuss about this but today we play it on strict 1/4 meantone organs like nothing is wrong.
A piano with split sharps - now that would be something!
Alkmaar, there's actually some controversy on whether it was in equal after 1721. Ibo Ortgies thinks that it was still in 1/4 comma meantone then.
The Weckmann canzona is interesting - Pienaar tries to turn it into a trifle by Domenico Scarlatti, to excite just through rhythmic repetition rather than anything interesting harmonically or contrapunctally.
To be honest, I find it hard to stay interested with these interpretations after the first bars of the pieces as the novelty of hearing a familiar (or not-so-familiar) piece on piano wears off.
I think the best pre-Bach on piano is still Glenn Gould, but of course he has to keep you engaged through his little tricks and mannerisms.
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on April 15, 2020, 07:59:01 PM
The Sweelinck chromatic fantasy actually doesn't use 1/4 meantone, since it requires d-sharp rather than the e-flat that strict 1/4 uses (one of the reasons why Dirksen thinks that it is meant for harpsichord, rather than organ, since retuning a harpsichord is much easier than retuning an organ).
It is true that e-flat is avoided in the chromatic fantasy, but there are only three d-sharps in the whole piece. This may be too sparse to conclude that stridt meantone wasn't used.
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid
Alkmaar, there's actually some controversy on whether it was in equal after 1721. Ibo Ortgies thinks that it was still in 1/4 comma meantone then.
Yes, Havinga complained about the mean tone in 1721, so he probably got it changed. Best guess is that the organ had some modified meantone tuning until 1765, where Ortgies writes it certainly was tuned equal.
Quote from: amw on April 15, 2020, 07:05:47 PM
Yes, I should have said "especially in equal temperament", I've never worked out exactly what's wrong with the equal tempered piano but octaves, sixths and sevenths all sound too narrow...
That said a lot of unequal temperaments don't seem to work that well either, at least in the few recordings I've heard. I don't know the Schäfer Bach.
The fact that the piano for each note has three or two strings which are hit simultaneously, and which must be precisely in tune, means that the piano sounds out of tune, if just one of these strings changes minimally, which isn't an uncommon occurrence.. This will be the same whatever temperament one choose.
In equal tuning octaves of course are tuned pure. I think the more annoying quality of equal tuning is the large thirds and the narrow fifths. And the more or less colorless quality of harmonies, which is best "appreciated" on an organ.
Quote from: (: premont :) on April 16, 2020, 02:56:42 AM
The fact that the piano for each note has three or two strings which are hit simultaneously, and which must be precisely in tune, means that the piano sounds out of tune, if just one of these strings changes minimally, which isn't an uncommon occurrence.. This will be the same whatever temperament one choose.
In equal tuning octaves of course are tuned pure. I think the more annoying quality of equal tuning is the large thirds and the narrow fifths. And the more or less colorless quality of harmonies, which is best "appreciated" on an organ.
I knew the thing I was thinking of wasn't imaginary—it's the Railsback curve https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_acoustics#The_Railsback_curve
When a piano is tuned in perfect equal temperament the octaves & any larger interval really sounds too narrow due to inharmonicity in the strings, so a compromise whereby the lower strings are tuned more flat and the upper strings more sharp is necessary. And tuners don't always get that right I guess. (Digital pianos and MIDI likewise.)
Of course fifths and minor thirds/major sixths sound ugly as well (major thirds sound fine, at least in my experience) due to the equal temperament but at least with piano repertoire from Beethoven onwards that's taken into account by the composers. Whereas I guess if I were playing Louis Couperin etc on piano I'd want a meantone tuning
I can't follow this discussion too well but it makes me think of La Monte Young. I wonder how maniacal you have to be to go that far with tuning. It's not a baroque question although don't Riley and Young use some kind of archaic tunings? It sounds like the piano must just be broken after 6 hours with the well-tuned piano. I also wonder if someone wants to play around with meantone for a performance, what means does one need to convince a venue to let you do it. My friend's wife is a pianist and did play Cage a few years ago but he said most places here in Japan are not going to let you stick screw in their instruments.
Sorry for the non sequitur. Back to baroque!
Quote from: amw on April 16, 2020, 04:24:16 AM
I knew the thing I was thinking of wasn't imaginary—it's the Railsback curve https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_acoustics#The_Railsback_curve
When a piano is tuned in perfect equal temperament the octaves & any larger interval really sounds too narrow due to inharmonicity in the strings, so a compromise whereby the lower strings are tuned more flat and the upper strings more sharp is necessary. And tuners don't always get that right I guess. (Digital pianos and MIDI likewise.)
Of course fifths and minor thirds/major sixths sound ugly as well (major thirds sound fine, at least in my experience) due to the equal temperament but at least with piano repertoire from Beethoven onwards that's taken into account by the composers. Whereas I guess if I were playing Louis Couperin etc on piano I'd want a meantone tuning
I didn't know this inharmonicity phenomenon- at least not in the way it is explained in your link. In equal tuning some inharmonicity always will result, because the upper notes aren't precisely in tune with the partials of the lower notes, and summation tones and subtraction tones of different non-harmonic pitches will be produced. I guess this is one of the reasons why earlier ages didn't use equal tuning that much.
A short anecdote: As a teen I listened to a piano tuner tuning the piano of my childhood home, and I observed, that he tuned the upper strings a bit too high. I asked him why he did this, and his answer was : To make the upper register sound more brilliant. This was an answer which made sense to me by then, even if I didn't think this was the ideal solution for all kinds of music.I was not aware if he tuned the lower strings a bit too low, but I wonder what he had answered if I had asked him.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71c5idCDRAL._SL500_.jpg)
Jean Philippe Rameau Complete Keyboard Works, Vol. 1 (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nvfLsN2hKqYvFXOV78GRlykeZ9s3JahmA) & Vol. 2 (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kyO5YEuPPIfq81TnLuERNGpAM9otLMRwM)
David Ezra Okonsar, Piano (2018)
I've listened to them partially and liked, so post here in thread. And I've seen David's performance of The Fitzwilliam Virginal Book mentioned on 1st page of this thread, I've listened to some parts of these and found them somewhat worth for further investigation. I come to David's YouTube channel (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCh6wDpF80ouzNMbOfBEvwSg) (topic) because of his Bach performances, found them quite good and listeneable, so performed more detailed investigations of his albums. That was week or two prior to registration on this forum, it is a mystic coincidence (browser tab with David's channel was open all that time, week or two).
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODcwNDUxMi4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1NzY1ODcyMzd9)
Looks like an interesting release.
"Most importantly, the playing throughout is superb; the clarity of lines, pedalling and sheer musicality of Ms Ai are wonderful. There is so much going on, it's hard to believe there is only the one pianist here, which is something that I have also noticed in Stradal's other transcriptions, I think it has to do with his using the whole of the keyboard rather than concentrating on the more central part." From Musicweb, Jonathan Welsh. Is this reviewer active on GMG? Just curious as the review goes into each piece in-depth.
Quote from: milk on May 21, 2020, 07:38:56 PM
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODcwNDUxMi4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1NzY1ODcyMzd9)
Looks like an interesting release.
"Most importantly, the playing throughout is superb; the clarity of lines, pedalling and sheer musicality of Ms Ai are wonderful. There is so much going on, it's hard to believe there is only the one pianist here, which is something that I have also noticed in Stradal's other transcriptions, I think it has to do with his using the whole of the keyboard rather than concentrating on the more central part." From Musicweb, Jonathan Welsh. Is this reviewer active on GMG? Just curious as the review goes into each piece in-depth.
I really haven't heard an organ transcription that I've liked. This one, like many others, is so heavy and pianistic. I know it's because the transcribers are all romantics.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/j-Thn2uRnLk/hqdefault.jpg) I think this album is more successful and listenable than his Bach. I think he's not the first to mix Rameau with Debussy and so the trick is to make the periods flow into each other. He's largely successful. It's not a deep take on either but it's pleasant listening.
Quote from: milk on May 22, 2020, 01:34:55 AM
I really haven't heard an organ transcription that I've liked. This one, like many others, is so heavy and pianistic. I know it's because the transcribers are all romantics.
Agree with this - almost. But Liszt's transcriptions of Bach's organ music are IMO very loyal to the original and worth listening to (provided the performer doesn't romanticize them).
I'd like to see an entire album of Sweelinck on piano. So far I've only heard bits and pieces, presented on various multi-composer albums. His music does seem to have a "singing" quality that makes it good for the piano.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 19, 2020, 12:52:31 PM
I'd like to see an entire album of Sweelinck on piano. So far I've only heard bits and pieces, presented on various multi-composer albums. His music does seem to have a "singing" quality that makes it good for the piano.
pianists love Rameau and Scarlatti. Now there's a couple of L. Couperin recordings on the market. I think Froberger is a good candidate for an aspiring pianist also.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 19, 2020, 12:52:31 PM
I'd like to see an entire album of Sweelinck on piano. So far I've only heard bits and pieces, presented on various multi-composer albums. His music does seem to have a "singing" quality that makes it good for the piano.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/A1LzRUc9D5L._SS500_.jpg)
Quote from: Mandryka on October 19, 2020, 07:45:02 PM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/A1LzRUc9D5L._SS500_.jpg)
This is a kind of scam I think. This name is attached to thousands of recordings that I'm guessing are generated by a computer.
Quote from: milk on October 19, 2020, 08:47:16 PM
This is a kind of scam I think. This name is attached to thousands of recordings that I'm guessing are generated by a computer.
What does it sound like?
Quote from: Mandryka on October 19, 2020, 11:23:02 PM
What does it sound like?
I can't remember. It's been a long time but if you search that name on amazon you'll find hundreds or thousands of recordings. There are some old discussions about him floating around from some years back. Someone claimed to know he uses a digital keyboard or midi and speeds up and edits the music. Something like that. I don't think there's any record of him performing anywhere. I wish he, if he's an actual real individual, would spell out his method on the recordings so people know what they're buying.
^If this guy's the real deal, he's an absolute legend for recording the entire solo piano repertoire and every symphony that's ever been transcribed for solo piano. Fake or not, who has time to put all this together?
According to his website, he plays on digital pianos:
http://www.mp3classicalmusic.net/
But I suppose knowing that much, it could just as well be MIDI.
Apparently, he is also a passionate cyclist. Edit: The plot thickens, even his cycling videos are computer generated.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e24dU8zJB9w&ab_channel=ClaudioColombo
:laugh:
Last edit: Here are some videos of him playing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o94TsPhelOc&ab_channel=ClaudioColombo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxpmuUNxmpE&ab_channel=ClaudioColombo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lW9FycfAV-0&ab_channel=ClaudioColombo
(https://cdns-images.dzcdn.net/images/cover/74fcb916de59a298b94bdad0476aff1a/500x500-000000-80-0-0.jpg) (https://cdns-images.dzcdn.net/images/cover/95c86915a562253c72605cc23278de02/500x500-000000-80-0-0.jpg) (https://cdns-images.dzcdn.net/images/cover/8adae685761de3942de45117c7535e90/500x500-000000-80-0-0.jpg) (https://cdns-images.dzcdn.net/images/cover/6369e56526a1474a9de4abd6338da5ad/500x500-000000-80-0-0.jpg) (https://cdns-images.dzcdn.net/images/cover/074b2c8e0e107b7d75bc4e4963433e43/500x500-000000-80-0-0.jpg)
This ticks all the boxes of a vanity project: microlabel, big picture of the performer on the cover, cheap graphic design, lots of material recorded very quickly, etc. It does seem to be played on a real piano at least and is maybe interesting for that reason.
No period instruments, but a historically informed dress code instead! :D
Quote from: Que on April 17, 2021, 04:02:15 PM
No period instruments, but a historically informed dress code instead! :D
To be fair, the meantone tuning also appears to be historically accurate, at least judging from listening to it.
I just listened to gnr first and ninth capriccio, it somehow doesn't come to life, it is languid.
But it could be me who hasn't come to life yet this morning. More coffee NOW!
Quote from: amw on April 17, 2021, 03:38:42 PM
(https://cdns-images.dzcdn.net/images/cover/74fcb916de59a298b94bdad0476aff1a/500x500-000000-80-0-0.jpg) (https://cdns-images.dzcdn.net/images/cover/95c86915a562253c72605cc23278de02/500x500-000000-80-0-0.jpg) (https://cdns-images.dzcdn.net/images/cover/8adae685761de3942de45117c7535e90/500x500-000000-80-0-0.jpg) (https://cdns-images.dzcdn.net/images/cover/6369e56526a1474a9de4abd6338da5ad/500x500-000000-80-0-0.jpg) (https://cdns-images.dzcdn.net/images/cover/074b2c8e0e107b7d75bc4e4963433e43/500x500-000000-80-0-0.jpg)
This ticks all the boxes of a vanity project: microlabel, big picture of the performer on the cover, cheap graphic design, lots of material recorded very quickly, etc. It does seem to be played on a real piano at least and is maybe interesting for that reason.
I'm listening a bit and I think there's some interesting playing here. Anyway, it's not like there's anything much to compare it to except one other dude who has a Frescobaldi recording on piano. Schlime is his name. Mandryka threw him my way. It'll be interesting to compare. It's weird sounding music on piano in that It sounds a bit like jazz.
Quote from: milk on April 19, 2021, 06:45:40 AM
one other dude who has a Frescobaldi recording on piano. Schlime is his name. Mandryka threw him my way. It'll be interesting to compare. It's weird sounding music on piano in that It sounds a bit like jazz.
Hah!
https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2376.msg1094880.html#msg1094880 (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2376.msg1094880.html#msg1094880)
Quote from: amw on April 17, 2021, 03:38:42 PM
(https://cdns-images.dzcdn.net/images/cover/74fcb916de59a298b94bdad0476aff1a/500x500-000000-80-0-0.jpg) (https://cdns-images.dzcdn.net/images/cover/95c86915a562253c72605cc23278de02/500x500-000000-80-0-0.jpg) (https://cdns-images.dzcdn.net/images/cover/8adae685761de3942de45117c7535e90/500x500-000000-80-0-0.jpg) (https://cdns-images.dzcdn.net/images/cover/6369e56526a1474a9de4abd6338da5ad/500x500-000000-80-0-0.jpg) (https://cdns-images.dzcdn.net/images/cover/074b2c8e0e107b7d75bc4e4963433e43/500x500-000000-80-0-0.jpg)
This ticks all the boxes of a vanity project: microlabel, big picture of the performer on the cover, cheap graphic design, lots of material recorded very quickly, etc. It does seem to be played on a real piano at least and is maybe interesting for that reason.
I'm in the market for this series.
Quote from: Mandryka on April 19, 2021, 07:24:29 AM
You know what it reminds me of? I'll tell you. Glen Gould playing Byrd. Without Gould's charisma, so it doesn't grab me.
I think it's perfect background music while reading or sipping a drink. :)
Quote from: Florestan on April 19, 2021, 07:33:07 AM
I think it's perfect background music while reading or sipping a drink. :)
I'm not sure but I don't think it's an acoustic piano. I wonder if it's midi.
Quote from: Mandryka on April 19, 2021, 07:48:05 AM
I'm not sure but I don't think it's an acoustic piano. I wonder if it's midi.
You mean Fontana? No way midi. I already got a volume and it definitely sounds like a genuine piano. A nice piano sound, even.
Info: https://www.girolamofrescobaldi.eu/en/minimal-english-2/ (https://www.girolamofrescobaldi.eu/en/minimal-english-2/)
Quote from: Florestan on April 19, 2021, 07:55:34 AM
You mean Fontana? No way midi. I already got a volume and it definitely sounds like a genuine piano. A nice piano sound, even.
Info: https://www.girolamofrescobaldi.eu/en/minimal-english-2/ (https://www.girolamofrescobaldi.eu/en/minimal-english-2/)
Thanks for that, I see he's recorded Fiori Musicali on the Mantua Antgenati, I shall listen tonight.
(The piano reminded me of the sound of Claudio Columbo. He too has recorded Frescobaldi on a piano.)
Quote from: Florestan on April 19, 2021, 07:18:02 AM
Hah!
https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2376.msg1094880.html#msg1094880 (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2376.msg1094880.html#msg1094880)
Ah it was you guys both who put it that way. Yes. I've got to put this on. I've gotta admit I'm not getting any mysticism from Fontana. But let's see I guess. ETA: Listening to Fontana and Schlime, they both have something to say here. Schlime does seem a bit freer but he also doesn't seem to be playing the entire scores? Is he shortening things? Or not playing some sort of repeats? I can't tell because this music is so abstract and weird. All the tracks on the Schlime are like two minutes. But Schlime is captivating.
Quote from: Mandryka on April 19, 2021, 08:04:53 AM
Thanks for that, I see he's recorded Fiori Musicali on the Mantua Antgenati, I shall listen tonight.
(The piano reminded me of the sound of Claudio Columbo. He too has recorded Frescobaldi on a piano.)
I don't think Claudio Columbo is a real person. There's someone who's used some sort of technology to pump out (in midi) nearly every composer you can possibly think of and flood outlets with these. That's the name on it. Who knows if it's one person. To me, it's a bit of a scam.
I can't say I'm a huge fan of Fontana so far. He doesn't play things completely straight and modernist like Pienaar in Gibbons (who I do like even though he's just typing—he has energy and style, even if it is the style of the Stravinsky Serenade in A) or Brubaker in the Codex Faenza (who I like even more for the same reasons) and he doesn't go into a haze of pianistic colour and softness like Kolesnikov in Couperin (who I also like, even though it's arguably just salon music that way; that's very much true to the context in which Couperin worked). Fontana feels sightread even though it isn't; it's hard to tell if he has a sense of longterm phrasing and everything seems very middle of the road. But I do like the meantone tuning on the piano so I'll listen to all of the volumes in more detail and report if anything else stands out.
Quote from: amw on April 20, 2021, 05:09:34 PM
I can't say I'm a huge fan of Fontana so far. He doesn't play things completely straight and modernist like Pienaar in Gibbons (who I do like even though he's just typing—he has energy and style, even if it is the style of the Stravinsky Serenade in A) or Brubaker in the Codex Faenza (who I like even more for the same reasons) and he doesn't go into a haze of pianistic colour and softness like Kolesnikov in Couperin (who I also like, even though it's arguably just salon music that way; that's very much true to the context in which Couperin worked). Fontana feels sightread even though it isn't; it's hard to tell if he has a sense of longterm phrasing and everything seems very middle of the road. But I do like the meantone tuning on the piano so I'll listen to all of the volumes in more detail and report if anything else stands out.
That Tristano Frescobaldi recording is of a different sort. I think there's more command in the playing there while also seeming chancy and improvised. It seems more "rounded."
I listened to the cento partite by Fontana. The piano doesn't have a strong bass response, in fact some harpsichords are like this too, and Rousset has argued that this is the best way in the music. I found my ear constantly drawn to the top line. The interpretation, in the first part at least, is a bit linear. Claudio Colombo has also recorded it on piano.
Quote from: Mandryka on April 20, 2021, 11:47:20 PM
I listened to the cento partite by Fontana. The piano doesn't have a strong bass response, in fact some harpsichords are like this too, and Rousset has argued that this is the best way in the music. I found my ear constantly drawn to the top line. The interpretation, in the first part at least, is a bit linear. Claudio Colombo has also recorded it on piano.
Francesco Tristano is really talented IMO.
I was looking up Colombo and I think we had this discussion before, maybe many years ago.
I also found this old thread discussing him. It's interesting:
http://www.pianosociety.com/threads/claudio-colombo.1990/
https://www.youtube.com/v/YPyNWSolkFY
Michael Hersch plays Josquin des Prez
Quote from: milk on May 22, 2020, 01:34:55 AM
I really haven't heard an organ transcription that I've liked. This one, like many others, is so heavy and pianistic. I know it's because the transcribers are all romantics.
Yes, but I think the playing and sound are good and the music will appeal to people who enjoy all those 19th and early 20th century Bach piano transcriptions. Not me and it had me soon fleeing to the same music recorded by Harald Vogel!
I thought this disc a revelation.
(https://www.dg-premium.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Kit_Armstrong_eCover_3k_sRGB_LZW_small-1024x1024.jpg)
Quote from: The new erato on February 15, 2022, 03:26:45 AM
I thought this disc a revelation.
(https://www.dg-premium.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Kit_Armstrong_eCover_3k_sRGB_LZW_small-1024x1024.jpg)
I quite like it. I still need to spend more time with it. But I've been enjoying what I've heard. I'm not sure there is another pianist who's done something like this.
https://soundcloud.com/katapataptwsi/tiento-del-tercer-tono
Antonio de Cabezón: Tiento del Tercer Tono
Pavlos Antoniadis
Imri Talgam , Frescobaldi Cento partite - shows it can indeed be done on a piano
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WIFZcMQzS8
(https://i.scdn.co/image/ab67616d0000b27356746009cc757c9babccc87a)
I might want to say something about this. I just put it on but I'm already intrigued by the obvious minimalist inclinations of this pianist/composer playing early baroque. BTW: There was another piano take on early baroque to be released. But I forgot what it was and it should be out by now. This is an impossible question but has anyone spotted a new recording on piano of baroque keyboard music? It's something that would have come out in recent weeks.
Quote from: milk on May 08, 2022, 06:22:12 AMThis is an impossible question but has anyone spotted a new recording on piano of baroque keyboard music? It's something that would have come out in recent weeks.
Schlime
https://www.highresaudio.com/en/album/view/a6h26k/francesco-tristano-on-early-music
Quote from: Mandryka on May 08, 2022, 10:36:30 AM
Schlime
https://www.highresaudio.com/en/album/view/a6h26k/francesco-tristano-on-early-music
That's it! Yes. Thank you. I think it'll be more inspiring than Batagov. I keep thinking there's something very big missing from the Batagov recording. It's not anywhere near the level of Armstrong - or the Schlime that I've heard in the past.
Quote from: Mandryka on May 08, 2022, 10:36:30 AM
Schlime
https://www.highresaudio.com/en/album/view/a6h26k/francesco-tristano-on-early-music
This music is so self-conscious. I can't take it. Batagov, on the other hand, summed to have nothing to say. Am I being hasty?
Quote from: milk on May 09, 2022, 06:22:13 AM
This music is so self-conscious. I can't take it. Batagov, on the other hand, summed to have nothing to say. Am I being hasty?
I think you may be being hasty about the Batagov actually, which seems at least rather beautiful, introspective and refined.
But the Schlieme is quite another matter. Everything seems less subtle in terms of colour and weight than it was in his Frescobaldi CD. I just don't like it at all!
Quote from: Mandryka on May 10, 2022, 12:38:43 AM
I think you may be being hasty about the Batagov actually, which seems at least rather beautiful, introspective and refined.
But the Schlieme is quite another matter. Everything seems less subtle in terms of colour and weight than it was in his Frescobaldi CD. I just don't like it at all!
His Frescobaldi was fantastic. But he wasn't going off-script. Here, he seems to think his spin on things will make the music stand out. But it drags it down.
(https://d24jnm9llkb1ub.cloudfront.net/icpn/822252258127/822252258127-cover-zoom.jpg) yay!
Hats off for him for doing it, and from the point of view of interpretation it's OK - light, dancing. Most of all it confirms my belief that the music doesn't suit me when it's played with the purer tones and the homogeneous registers of the modern instrument. There may be pianos which suit me better, and possibly playing styles which use the pianos overtones to greater effect. The recording may not help either.
In a conversation DB-P once said that he's not primarily interested in sound. It would be really good to let him compare some of my harpsichord recordings of this music with his, and see if it doesn't change his mind. I just listened to his and Colin Booth's Passamezzo Pavan, for example, and it seems to me no question that the Booth is more sympathetic to the music. Daniel Ben Pienaar, where are you? I conjure you out of the ether.
By the way the Passamezzo Pavan and Galliard is often attributed to Peter Philips.
I think it's a great shame that he hasn't made the booklet available on streaming services, for an important release like this - important because the music is so little known outside of PI circles.
(https://www.wfmt.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=500,height=500,quality=80,format=auto,onerror=redirect,metadata=none/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/AV2574.20221006092349-e1670885414201.jpg)
I haven't thought to compare this with Armstrong. I may do it. This morning I was listening to Giulia Nuti. I go back and forth between piano and period. Sometimes piano seems opposite of what it's supposed to be: it's actually more "samey," less sonically diverse sounding in this music. That doesn't seem to make sense though.
ETA: I'm surprised that I find Armstrong so much more interesting. The recording is much better too. Ok, it's more pianistic. But it's a modern piano, so why not. Armstrong just seems more inside the music and more thoughtful. Maybe I need to give D-BP more time. Maybe D-BP is IS going for a virginal piano.
If you speak French and like Kim, he's on YouTube playing and talking about his transcription of some Bach, BWV 721. He comes across as sweet and serious, worth a listen if you like his stuff.
Quote from: Mandryka on December 16, 2022, 01:14:42 AMIf you speak French and like Kim, he's on YouTube playing and talking about his transcription of some Bach, BWV 721. He comes across as sweet and serious, worth a listen if you like his stuff.
But I agree with your earlier post. I was listening to Nuti this morning. I AM interested in sound. The modern piano strips the music of something important. Where I can see piano is supposed bring all kinds of effects to some kinds of music, in this kinds of music it somehow deadens it or hollows it. Armstrong is more convincing though and when I'm in the mood, I can certainly enjoy it. I don't speak French unfortunately. D-BP, I don't know what he doing here or why.
I meant Armstrong not Kim. Kit.
Quote from: Mandryka on December 16, 2022, 02:56:53 AMI meant Armstrong not Kim. Kit.
Yes, me too. Mine was a typo. Kit Armstrong on his Byrd recording. I'm looking forward to more from him.
One thing Armstrong says on the youtube is that sound is really important to him. Daniel Ben Pienaar himself doesn't really prioritise this aspect of the music. I kind of feel that Armstrong is right - he may have a bigger budget, and so can get better instruments and engineers.
Quote from: Mandryka on December 16, 2022, 06:01:33 AMOne thing Armstrong says on the youtube is that sound is really important to him. Daniel Ben Pienaar himself doesn't really prioritise this aspect of the music. I kind of feel that Armstrong is right - he may have a bigger budget, and so can get better instruments and engineers.
he's on a big label. As little as I still know about piano technique, to me it seems like Kit has a lot more color, sometimes using dynamics too but also distinguishing between notes when he's playing fast which is harder on the piano than the plucked instruments. D-BP blurs things. D-BP may be making a choice about technique and Kit maybe more influenced as some kind of prodigy, if that's a bad thing. But I don't think it's bad. I mean he sounds really gifted. D-BP makes me think of the challenge in this music and I think for any competent artist it just sounds like a challenge to take this keyboard music out of the instrument it was written on, much more so than Bach whom I intuit was more abstractly writing for any instrument. Virginal music in the dances is full of notes and many pianists just sound unprepared or something - not able to translate it. Who's that really famous pianist who doesn't believe in recording much but who sometimes played a lot of baroque? Usually did typical romantic repertoire? Kit Armstrong sounds like he's got that level of genius if he can age well.
Listening to K. Armstrong's Fantasia (Fitzwillian 108). Wonderful counterpoint in this. Did Bach know this music? This is a piece that Armstrong brings to life and makes work on piano.
(https://melody.su/upload/resize_cache/iblock/92a/1024_1024_0/92a3fe46ad8b95e354c838c926983d48.jpg)
I haven't listened to this yet but I'm just looking at this and wording what it is. What is it? I don't know her but I WILL listen to this today.
Quote from: milk on January 25, 2023, 02:09:12 PMWhat is it?
https://static.qobuz.com/goodies/84/000154848.pdf
To transform many different rocks into a single organic alloy, to combine what seemed incompatible — and now it suddenly seems to you that it cannot be done any other way.
Quote from: Mandryka on January 25, 2023, 07:47:21 PMhttps://static.qobuz.com/goodies/84/000154848.pdf
To transform many different rocks into a single organic alloy, to combine what seemed incompatible — and now it suddenly seems to you that it cannot be done any other way.
Maybe I'm just tired and impatient but I couldn't understand from it. Did it explain? I'm really tired from the kids (my two boys, 5 and 3) tonight (feeding them, brushing their teeth, getting them to bed). So, these are pieces used in those films but she didn't actually play on the soundtracks, right? I tried to reread the PDF but somehow it's not getting through my brain.
Thanks for the link!
Quote from: Mandryka on December 16, 2022, 06:01:33 AMOne thing Armstrong says on the youtube is that sound is really important to him. Daniel Ben Pienaar himself doesn't really prioritise this aspect of the music.
Pienaar stated in an interview that sound is important to him, but not in the conventional sense. Conventional tonal beauty is not really what he is going for. He said something along the lines that it makes everything sound the same. I searched a bit, but couldn't find the interview online, but it's out there.
Quote from: milk on December 16, 2022, 06:17:24 PMKit Armstrong sounds like he's got that level of genius if he can age well.
Armstrong is a flat out genius. Alfred Brendel spotted it and took Armstrong on as one of his few pupils. It's evident in his two Sony recordings, one an all Liszt disc, the other some Bach and Ligeti with his own works peppered in. His take on some Liszt and Ligeti pieces stand apart from everyone else. I've not yet gone for his DVD only Goldbergs, where he also includes some Bull and Byrd, and throws in some Sweelinck.
Quote from: Todd on January 31, 2023, 07:05:59 AMPienaar stated in an interview that sound is important to him, but not in the conventional sense. Conventional tonal beauty is not really what he is going for. He said something along the lines that it makes everything sound the same. I searched a bit, but couldn't find the interview online, but it's out there.
This was what he said to me
. . . it would be a mistake to assume that musicians have, by default, access to their ideal instruments, halls etc. for recordings. Almost no recordings nowadays are made under ideal conditions (if such a thing existed) unless the artist has real choice and access to corporate funding streams or private wealth (which, as you can imagine, I do not). Even then, we are still talking about the real world, and on the day of a recording any number of things may be short of just right. Of course, artists with 'corporate' level support might labour under different constraints (eg. big labels might limit repertoire choices, might have a 'house sound' or there might be weird power plays going on between grand old-school producers and engineers and aspiring musicians - something that often affects artistic decisions). But, that granted, it may simply be that certain artists' personalities and work do indeed fit naturally with how the more visible 'mainstream' things are generally funded and marketed now, and they may well have access to SOTA conditions.
Using decent-ish modern Steinways is a more-or-less neutral choice - it is not that I particularly like them, it is just that they respond reasonably accurately to the manipulations that I am interested in: like I said, details of relative differences in voicing, pedalling, different kinds of vertical dislocation between hands or notes in chords or contrapuntal textures, varieties of articulation, emphases, which notes are stretched or compressed, where stress falls in a phrase, tempo and dynamic fluctuations etc. etc. - and of course in the ideas that can be expressed using those tools.
(As I pointed out, some people find my obsessions with these things too 'interventionist', whereas others don't even notice them at all (perhaps because all they can hear is the 'de-prioritising' of blanket warmth and 'evenness' of the kind that a standard-issue, authoritarian, Rosina Lhevine-style technique would produce) and thus find my playing lacking in 'depth' (perhaps equating fleetness or speed with superficiality, to boot) - or boring, or outright incompetent. Others, still, find the detailing colourful and interesting, or (as you do, Mandryka) 'tense and turbulent'. That sort of spread is in the nature of aesthetic experience, as anyone who has eavesdropped on audience comments at any concert will know (unless an overwhelming consensus has previously been forged around the work of an artist - in which case many in the audience will predictably seek to perceive what they believe they are there to perceive)).
Quote from: Mandryka on January 31, 2023, 07:14:27 AMThis was what he said to me
. . . it would be a mistake to assume that musicians have, by default, access to their ideal instruments, halls etc. for recordings. Almost no recordings nowadays are made under ideal conditions (if such a thing existed) unless the artist has real choice and access to corporate funding streams or private wealth (which, as you can imagine, I do not). Even then, we are still talking about the real world, and on the day of a recording any number of things may be short of just right. Of course, artists with 'corporate' level support might labour under different constraints (eg. big labels might limit repertoire choices, might have a 'house sound' or there might be weird power plays going on between grand old-school producers and engineers and aspiring musicians - something that often affects artistic decisions). But, that granted, it may simply be that certain artists' personalities and work do indeed fit naturally with how the more visible 'mainstream' things are generally funded and marketed now, and they may well have access to SOTA conditions.
Using decent-ish modern Steinways is a more-or-less neutral choice - it is not that I particularly like them, it is just that they respond reasonably accurately to the manipulations that I am interested in: like I said, details of relative differences in voicing, pedalling, different kinds of vertical dislocation between hands or notes in chords or contrapuntal textures, varieties of articulation, emphases, which notes are stretched or compressed, where stress falls in a phrase, tempo and dynamic fluctuations etc. etc. - and of course in the ideas that can be expressed using those tools.
(As I pointed out, some people find my obsessions with these things too 'interventionist', whereas others don't even notice them at all (perhaps because all they can hear is the 'de-prioritising' of blanket warmth and 'evenness' of the kind that a standard-issue, authoritarian, Rosina Lhevine-style technique would produce) and thus find my playing lacking in 'depth' (perhaps equating fleetness or speed with superficiality, to boot) - or boring, or outright incompetent. Others, still, find the detailing colourful and interesting, or (as you do, Mandryka) 'tense and turbulent'. That sort of spread is in the nature of aesthetic experience, as anyone who has eavesdropped on audience comments at any concert will know (unless an overwhelming consensus has previously been forged around the work of an artist - in which case many in the audience will predictably seek to perceive what they believe they are there to perceive)).
Interesting, thanks for posting. He's certainly a thoughtful and sensitive person.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJu_bEy6Yjg&ab_channel=NicolasBagnoli
Soklolov playing Purcell last month.
The Purcell sounds serious and expressive, and I quite like it -- I like his restraint -- not much by way of modern piano effects as far as I can tell from the recording. But above all I like the ornamentation and the counterpoint. I knew a harpsichord player who admired Sokolov in contrapuntal music, and listening to this, I think he may have been right.
In fact, I may like him more than any harpsichordist I've heard.
Quote from: Mandryka on March 31, 2023, 07:15:26 AMIn fact, I may like him more than any harpsichordist I've heard.
In general, or only concerning Purcell?
Do you know if Purcell's keyboard suites have been recorded by anyone on a clavichord - the instrument I (maybe it's just me) feel would be most appropriate for this music?
Quote from: premont on March 31, 2023, 10:11:07 AMIn general, or only concerning Purcell?
Do you know if Purcell's keyboard suites have been recorded by anyone on a clavichord - the instrument I (maybe it's just me) feel would be most appropriate for this music?
You could be right about clavichord -- this seems nice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9e8Brkz3hc&ab_channel=NorbertoBroggini
Quote from: Mandryka on March 31, 2023, 12:20:15 PMYou could be right about clavichord -- this seems nice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9e8Brkz3hc&ab_channel=NorbertoBroggini
Yes, in principle. However I find Norberto Broggini's style a bit too rigid for Purcell.
Egarr's about as good as it gets for Purcell on harpsichord I think.
Grante's Scarlatti is very tasteful. His dynamics are extremely subtle or nonexistent and there's very little pedal. It's very baroque even on piano. At the same time, there is sensitivity here. But poise is the word.
(https://musicandarts.com/wp-content/uploads/CD-covers/CD-1273.jpg)