Now now, don't panic! I know someone with a picture of a composer starting a thread on that composer might have gotten a bad name recently, but this isn't the same deal! Indeed, I've been hoping someone else would make a thread on Raff; I'm doing this because a thread on another board is getting somewhat derailed talking about Raff recordings.
And yes, Raff is one of my absolute favourite composers, but I'm not really here to talk about that. I didn't put this in the recording board, though, because hopefully this can be a catch-all. But I did start this to talk about pieces I might recommend for those who aren't familiar with Raff. Let's take a look, and I hope you like catchy tunes!
- Six Morceaux, Op.85, specifically #3 Cavatina. This is maybe Raff's most famous piece today, at least by name. It was played on the HMS Titanic when it went down, one of the last pieces played by the musicians on the sinking ship. This cavatina is often found on CDs that contain a variety of works by different composers. I have no idea how many versions are out there, but it's probably the easiest Raff piece to find.
- Piano Concerto in C minor, Op.185: This is another work where there are multiple recordings available. The first one I got was in the 'Romantic Piano Concerto' series, and I still like this performance. For personal taste, I wouldn't list this among my 5 most recommended Raff works, though I do love it; I name it because of its wide availability, and because even Raff naysayers very often seem to make an exception for this piece.
- Symphony #5 in E, Op.177 'Lenore': The very first piece by Raff that I heard, as far as I know I never even heard his famous Cavatina before this. It has one of the most fantastic openings of any symphony I know of; I really love the first movement. This one is also easy to find, been recorded more than any other Raff symphony. Nine of Raff's eleven surviving symphonies have a title given by the composer himself, and this one is no exception. Here is a small page devoted to it, telling about the programme: http://www.raff.org/symph5.htm It has some sound samples of very inferior quality; perhapts best not to even listen to them! The third movement of this is a march, with a very famous theme. I personally prefer the version of this symphony found on the CD Tudor 7077, performed by the Bamberg Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Hans Stadlmair.
- Symphony #9 in E minor, Op.208 'Im Sommer': I'll have to restrict myself here to saying that the first movement of this is probably my favourite single movement from any symphony by any composer, ever. In this case, I suggest the recording on the Marco Polo label (8.223362), featuring the Czechoslovak State Philharmonic Orchestra, conducted by Urs Schneider. That CD also comes paired with the 8th, perhaps my second-favourite of Raff's symphonies, and again in my favourite performance of it. Considering what's packed on here, this is my #1 Raff CD of them all, but I don't recommend it tops because I'm trying to pick things here that more widely appeal based on what I've read and seen and heard from other people. However, Raff's Symphony #8 first movement is maybe the best at showing off his powers of orchestration.
- Maria Stuart Lieder, Op.172: Hungaraton 32256, with Emese Virág on the piano and the mezzo-soprano Andrea Meláth singing. Meláth has perhaps the prettiest mezzo-voice I've ever heard, which was great relief, since that's not one of my preferred vocal types. Anyways, of these songs, there is one that I think would find wide appeal: #9 Nach der Geburt ihres Sohnes. I wish everybody who cares at all for piano+voice could hear this.
It's rather embarrassing for me to admit that the only work i have heard from Raff is his "Lenore" symphony, it has some catchy melodies, and overall i would say it is not a bad symphony. Didn't he used to be quite popular? somehow like many composers in his day, their works are seldom played today.
Raff always made me comatose, even more then Mendelssohn. It's truly bizarre because their music seems like it should simply tear your soul apart, except nothing ever happens.
Raff is pretty weak tea. He just never seems willing to challenge the listener. I have an Lp of Bernard Herrmann (yes, the geat film music composer) conducting the "Lenore" symphony that makes the best case possible for the music, I think. I believe this was briefly on CD.
Well, quite a divergence of opinion here. Anyhoo, I ordered #5 on Tudor and #8-9 on Marco Polo. I'll see.
I've some v.c. and chamber works. All boring. Except a really
beautiful string octet, a splendid work IMHO next to Felix's
masterpiece.
Bernard Herrmann was a great admirer and a reason why Unicorn were able to get him to conduct a recording of the 'Lenore' symphony.
The Lenore legend is only referred to in the last movement.
Sadly, we are heavily reliant on recordings and the buying or broadcasting of these recordings if we want to get to know Raff's music.
His influences, quite clear once you get to know him, are Mendelssohn and Beethoven.
I am a fan but am, sometimes, exasperated by his banality and slack orchestration. I want to shout "Get on with it."
For someone who was employed by Liszt as an orchestrator this is surprising and suggests laziness more than anything else.
He certainly had a strong sense of his own importance when he, famously, bequeathed royalyies to his widow only for her to witness his music going quickly out of fashion.
Nowadays, when exploration of the byways of the Romantic repertoire is on the increae, one would have thought that Raff's better works would engender an audience.
Quote from: Hector on August 24, 2007, 04:31:14 AM
Nowadays, when exploration of the byways of the Romantic repertoire is on the increae, one would have thought that Raff's better works would engender an audience.
And, in your mind, what are these?
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on August 24, 2007, 05:29:26 AM
And, in your mind, what are these?
Certainly, some of the symphonies. 3, 4, 5 and the 'Seasons' sequence but all should carry a warning that he labours his material and, frequently, runs out of ideas.
If, and it is an 'if', he could have possessed the same discipline as a Dvorak we might have a work or two in the central repertoire.
Enjoyable, all the same.
Okay, I'm loving Raff (a composer previously barely on my radar), and the Fifth Symphony is absolutely up my street. :)
So here's a daft question: Has there ever been a complete cycle of his surviving 11 symphonies?
Quote from: Mark on November 08, 2007, 02:51:05 AM
Okay, I'm loving Raff (a composer previously barely on my radar), and the Fifth Symphony is absolutely up my street. :)
So here's a daft question: Has there ever been a complete cycle of his surviving 11 symphonies?
At least twice: on Marco Polo and Tudor.
http://www.raff.org/records/discog/cd_sym.htm
Quote from: Daverz on November 08, 2007, 03:21:00 AM
At least twice: on Marco Polo and Tudor.
http://www.raff.org/records/discog/cd_sym.htm
Excellent. :)
I'll download all of the Marco Polo cycle first (thank God for eMusic 0:)), then consider getting the Tudor cycle if I like what I hear.
I think Marco Polo beats Tudor on the 8th and 9th symphonies, but I don't like the MP version of the 5th compared to any other performance I've heard. I have 3 recordings of it, and have heard 1 other, and the MP one is the worst of the four. In general, I prefer the Tudor versions of every one except 2, 8, 9, and 11. One other benefit to the Tudor versions is the pairings, such as Raff's surviving four orchestral suites. In addition, Tudor is almost recording the entire catalogue of Raff music over time, so if you want to build a bigger set, this is how to do it. Raff's five-movement Symphony #0, the "Große Sinfonie", is apparently lost for good, but he claimed that some of the material is to be found in his Op.101 Orchestral Suite, which can be found on the Tudor label. You can check out a ton of detailed reviews of all of this here: http://www.raff.org/records/intro.htm
cpo also has a complete issue of his music for violin and piano, and Tudor is also coming out with (or perhaps has finished) the same thing. The same goes for the string quartets, at least two labels are coming out with concurrent complete sets!
One small warning, if that's the right word. On the Tudor label are the premiere - perhaps still only - recordings of Raff's 2 Violin Concerti. However, the #1 is with an orchestration replaced by the heavy Wagner fan August Wilhemj, who completely re-wrote everything. This is really bizarre and disappointing, considering that Raff's original score still exists; I think the label just had a hard time getting hold of it in time, I'm not sure. I have no problem with Wilhemj's version being performed or recorded elsewhere, but not on the CD meant to debut both of these works on recording. I don't like the orchestration much, but it's not awful.
By the way, if you like the Symphony #5, I suggest the Cello Concerto #1; it's in D minor, but kinda feels the same in a way, at least to me. I don't know why, perhaps it's the flowing character. It also has a magnificent opening theme.
Quote from: JoshLilly on November 08, 2007, 05:43:25 AM
I think Marco Polo beats Tudor on the 8th and 9th symphonies, but I don't like the MP version of the 5th compared to any other performance I've heard. I have 3 recordings of it, and have heard 1 other, and the MP one is the worst of the four. In general, I prefer the Tudor versions of every one except 2, 8, 9, and 11. One other benefit to the Tudor versions is the pairings, such as Raff's surviving four orchestral suites. In addition, Tudor is almost recording the entire catalogue of Raff music over time, so if you want to build a bigger set, this is how to do it. Raff's five-movement Symphony #0, the "Große Sinfonie", is apparently lost for good, but he claimed that some of the material is to be found in his Op.101 Orchestral Suite, which can be found on the Tudor label. You can check out a ton of detailed reviews of all of this here: http://www.raff.org/records/intro.htm
cpo also has a complete issue of his music for violin and piano, and Tudor is also coming out with (or perhaps has finished) the same thing. The same goes for the string quartets, at least two labels are coming out with concurrent complete sets!
One small warning, if that's the right word. On the Tudor label are the premiere - perhaps still only - recordings of Raff's 2 Violin Concerti. However, the #1 is with an orchestration replaced by the heavy Wagner fan August Wilhemj, who completely re-wrote everything. This is really bizarre and disappointing, considering that Raff's original score still exists; I think the label just had a hard time getting hold of it in time, I'm not sure. I have no problem with Wilhemj's version being performed or recorded elsewhere, but not on the CD meant to debut both of these works on recording. I don't like the orchestration much, but it's not awful.
By the way, if you like the Symphony #5, I suggest the Cello Concerto #1; it's in D minor, but kinda feels the same in a way, at least to me. I don't know why, perhaps it's the flowing character. It also has a magnificent opening theme.
Josh, you certainly know your Raff. :D
Thanks for the detailed post.
Yes, Joshua is a-rife with Raff.
Quote from: Mark on November 08, 2007, 02:51:05 AM
Okay, I'm loving Raff (a composer previously barely on my radar), and the Fifth Symphony is absolutely up my street. :)
So here's a daft question: Has there ever been a complete cycle of his surviving 11 symphonies?
You might want to check out another Romantic era "midlist" composer, Goldmark, particularly his
Rustic Wedding Symphony.
Also, Dvorak wrote a work on this same theme,
The Spectre's Bride.
I have mentioned elsewhere that I adapted the march from the 3rd movement of Raff's Fifth Symphony for organ for a wedding: I composed a few bars of transition and a non-Raffian 8-bar finale a la R. Strauss/Mahler.
Interesting: the score contained a Charles Ivesian chord of 3 nasty semitones all coming together, which had to be a printing mistake.
Unfortunately the Mp3 file is too big to be allowed here. :-[
Quote from: Daverz on November 08, 2007, 03:31:31 PM
You might want to check out another Romantic era "midlist" composer, Goldmark, particularly his Rustic Wedding Symphony.
Also, Dvorak wrote a work on this same theme, The Spectre's Bride.
Thanks. :)
Quote from: Cato on November 08, 2007, 04:04:10 PM
I have mentioned elsewhere that I adapted the march from the 3rd movement of Raff's Fifth Symphony for organ for a wedding: I composed a few bars of transition and a non-Raffian 8-bar finale a la R. Strauss/Mahler.
Interesting: the score contained a Charles Ivesian chord of 3 nasty semitones all coming together, which had to be a printing mistake.
Unfortunately the Mp3 file is too big to be allowed here. :-[
Could you not make the file small enough by transcoding it?
Quote from: Mark on November 08, 2007, 09:23:24 PM
Thanks. :)
Could you not make the file small enough by transcoding it?
To quote the lady detective/anthropologist "Bones": "I don't know what that means."
How exactly does one transcode an Mp3 file?
Quote from: Daverz on November 08, 2007, 03:31:31 PM
You might want to check out another Romantic era "midlist" composer, Goldmark, particularly his Rustic Wedding Symphony.
I'll second this; the Rustic Wedding Symphony is very enjoyable on a warm sunny day. :)
Quote from: Cato on November 09, 2007, 03:55:38 AM
To quote the lady detective/anthropologist "Bones": "I don't know what that means."
How exactly does one transcode an Mp3 file?
Google for it. ;)
Basically, you want to convert the MP3 file into a lower bitrate, thereby reducing its filesize ... and sound quality, sadly. :(
Quote from: Mark on November 10, 2007, 01:46:55 AM
Google for it. ;)
Basically, you want to convert the MP3 file into a lower bitrate, thereby reducing its filesize ... and sound quality, sadly. :(
Okay, thank you, I will see what happens.
Just discovered the Suite in G for Violin and Orchestra, Op. 180, and the Thüringian Suite.
Finely crafted Romantic pieces.
The latter piece has quite a program for it.
Even with CPO's survey of his works for violin and piano, there doesn't seem to be any recording of this piece,
which is a shame.
(http://imslp.org/images/4/4e/Raff_210_cov.jpg)
Suite for Violin and Piano in A, Op.210
I. Prélude
II. Pavane
III. Chanson de Louis XIII varié
IV. Gavotte et Mu
(born May 27, 1822, Lachen, near Zürich, Switz.—died June 24/25, 1882, Frankfurt am Main, Ger.), German composer and teacher, greatly celebrated in his lifetime but nearly forgotten in the late 20th century.
Raff became a schoolteacher in 1840 and taught himself the piano, violin, and composition. After early compositional efforts influenced by Felix Mendelssohn and Robert Schumann, he joined ranks with the new German school of Franz Liszt and Richard Wagner, and from 1850 to 1856 he was Liszt's assistant in Weimar. Raff was a piano teacher in Wiesbaden from 1856 to 1877. Composing in almost every genre, Raff was extremely prolific and was commonly regarded by his contemporaries as the peer of Johannes Brahms and Wagner. From 1877 until his death he was the highly esteemed director of the Hoch Conservatory in Frankfurt. Raff produced 11 symphonies, concerti for various instruments, operas, choral and chamber music, and piano works.
- Item: his music was admired by Mendelssohn, Liszt and Bulow
- Item: he became an acquaintance of Brahms and Joseph Joachim
- Item: Raff's symphonies had some influence on the development of Bruch and Strauss
- Item: despite recognizing his "talent and fantasy" Clara Schumann was astute enough to foresee his popularity would not be long-lasting
Chamber music
============================================
Piano Quintet, in a, Op.107, 1862
2 piano quartets, in G, in c, Op.202, 1876
Piano Trio, in g, 1849, lost
4 piano trios, in c, Op.102, 1861
in G, Op.112, 1863
in a, Op.155, 1870
in D, Op.158, 1870
5 violin sonatas, in e, Op.73, 1853–4 (1859), in A, Op.78, 1858 (1861), in D, Op.128, 1865 (1867), in g, Op.129, 1866 (1867), in c, Op.145, 1868 (1869), (1876)
Aus der Schweiz, violin, piano, Op.57, 1848
2 Fantasiestücke, violin, piano, Op.58, 1850, 1852
3 duos, on themes from Wagner's ops, violin, piano, Op.63, 1853
6 morceaux, violon, piano, Op.85, 1859
Volker, cyclic tone poem, violin, piano, Op.203, 1876
Suite, A, violin, piano, Op. 210, 1879
Duo, violin, piano, WoO.55 1882
Cello Sonata, in D, Op.183, 1873
Duo, cello/violin, piano, in A, Op.59, 1848
2 Fantasiestücke, cello, piano, Op.86, 1854
Octet, in C, Op.176, 1872
Sextet, in g, Op.178, 1872
Quartet, in C, 1849–50, lost
5 string quartets, in d, Op.77, 1855 (1860), in A, Op.90, 1857 (1862), in e, Op.136, 1866 (1868), in a, Op.137, 1867 (1869), in G, Op.138, 1867 (1869);
3 string quartets, Op.192, no.1, no.2, no.3 1874 (1876): 1-Suite in älterer Form, 2-Die schöne Müllerin, 3-Suite in Kanonenform
Fest-Ouvertüre, in B ww, Op.124, 1865, arr. piano 4 hands (Bremen, 1865);
Sinfonietta, in F, 2 flutes, 2 oboes, 2 clarinets, 2 bassoons, 2 horns, Op.188, 1873
2 Romanzen, horn/cello, piano, Op.182, 1873
Orchestral
==================================
op.
— Grosse Symphonie, e, 1854, lost
96 Sym. no.1 'An das Vaterland', D, 1859–61 (1864)
140 Sym. no.2, C, 1866 (Mainz, 1869)
153 Sym. no.3 'Im Walde', F, 1869 (1871)
167 Sym. no.4, g, 1871 (1872)
177 Sym. no.5 'Lenore', E, 1872 (1873)
189 Sym. no.6, d, 1873 (Berlin, 1874)
201 Sym. no.7 'In den Alpen', B, 1875 (1876)
205 Sym. no.8 'Frühlingsklänge', A, 1876 (1877)
208 Sym. no.9 'Im Sommer', e, 1878 (1879)
213 Sym. no.10 'Zur Herbstzeit', f, 1879 (1882)
214 Sym. no.11 'Der Winter', a, 1876 (1883)
Ode au printemps for Piano, G, op.76, 1857 (Mainz, 1862);
Piano Conc., c, op.185, 1873 (1874);
Suite for Piano, E, op.200, 1875 (1876)
La fée d'amour (Die Liebesfee), a, op.67, 1854 (Mainz, 1878);
Violin Conc. no.1, b, op.161, 1870–71 (1871);
Suite for Violin, G, op.180, 1873 (1873);
Violin Conc. no.2, a, op.206, 1877 (1878)
Cello: Conc. [no.1], D, op.193, 1874 (1875);
Conc. no.2, G, 1876
Cavatina for Violin & Orchestra, Op.85
Ungrischer for Violin & Orchestra, Op.203
Incid music to Bernhard von Weimar (W. Genast), 1854, ov., rev. as Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott, op.127, 1865 (1866),
2 marches (Munich, 1885)
Suite no.1, C, op.101, 1863 (Mainz, 1865);
Suite no.2 'in ungarischer Weise', f, op.194, 1874 (Berlin, 1876);
Italienische Suite, 1871 (Berlin, 1884);
Thüringer Suite, 1875
Fest-Ouvertüre, G, 1851–2, lost;
Jubel-Ouvertüre, C, op.103, 1864 (1865);
Fest-Ouvertüre, A, op.117, 1864 (1865);
Konzert-Ouvertüre, F, op.123, 1862 (1866);
Festmarsch, C, op.139, 1867 (Mainz, 1878);
ovs. to Shakespeare plays, 1879: The Tempest, Macbeth, Romeo and Juliet, Othello;
Elegie, 1880 [orig. 3rd movt of Sym. no.10];
Grosse Fuge, 1882, inc.
World's End, oratorio, Op.212
Overture to Prometheus Unbound
Piano music
====================================
• Album lyrique, Op.17
• Allegro agitato, Op.151
• Chaconne, for 2 pianos in A-, Op.150
• 5 Eglogues, Op.105
• Fantaisie-polonaise, Op.106
• Fantasie in B, for piano, WoO15A
• Fantasie-Sonate, Op.168
• Fruhlingsboten, 12 pieces for piano, Op.55
• Impromptu-valse, Op.94
• 3 Klavier-Soli, Op.74
• La cicerenella, for piano, Op.165
• 3 Piano Pieces, Op.125
• 2 pieces, for piano (1871), Op.166
• 4 Pieces, for piano, Op.196
• Romance No.1, for piano, WoO11 (after Beethoven's Romance for violin, Op.40)
• 12 romances en forme d'etudes, for piano, Op.8
• Souvenirs de Musique de W.A. Mozart 'Don Giovanni' (K.527), Op.45, for piano
• Variationen uber ein Originalthema, Op.179
• Grande Sonate, Op.14
• Blatter und Bluten, for piano, Op.135a
• Erinnerung an Venedig, for piano, Op.187
• Barcarolle, for piano, Op.143
• 6 Poemes, for piano, Op.15
• Fantaisie, for piano, Op.142
• 2 Pieces, for piano, Op.169
Stage Works
========================
König Alfred (4, G. Logau), 1848–50, rev. 1852, Weimar, 13 March 1853
Samson (musikalisches Trauerspiel, 5, J. Raff), 1853–7
Die Parole (3, Raff, after von Saldern), 1868
Dame Kobold (komische Oper, 3, P. Reber, after P. Calderón de la Barca), op.154, 1869, Weimar, Hof, 9 April 1870, vs (Berlin, 1871), ov., fs (Berlin, 1870), lib. (Wiesbaden, 1870)
Benedetto Marcello (lyrische Oper, 3, Raff), 1877–8
Die Eifersüchtigen (komische Oper, 3, Raff), 1881–2
- various lieder and choral works
Raff was pretty inconsistent, but his finest works merit greater attention. Out of his symphonies, his Third, Fifth, and Ninth are the best - picturesque works with plenty of memorable tunes and colorful orchestration. His Piano Concerto is quite wonderful as well, with is beautiful slow movement. Also of note are his second and fourth piano trios, which are full of soaring melodies and satisfying part-writing.
Raff TTT! Thread started in 2007, then a 10 year 'burial' until 2017, now resurrected!
Just as a brief reminder, a short bio below (longer bio and MUCH more information, including his catalog listings at the official Raff Website (http://www.raff.org/index.htm)). Currently, I own just the 3 chamber music CDs shown below - listening now and each is well done and performed - would like to add some more works, especially a few symphonies (don't need all 11) - so, hope other Raff fans will join in and leave comments, recommendations, etc. Doubt that there will be a 'Raff Revival' but music does deserve some more attention. Dave :)
QuoteJoachim Raff (born May 27, 1822, Lachen, Switz.—died June 24/25, 1882, Frankfurt, Ger.), German composer and teacher, greatly celebrated in his lifetime but nearly forgotten in the late 20th century. Raff became a schoolteacher in 1840 and taught himself the piano, violin, and composition. After early compositional efforts influenced by Felix Mendelssohn and Robert Schumann, he joined ranks with the new German school of Franz Liszt and Richard Wagner, and from 1850 to 1856 he was Liszt's assistant in Weimar. Raff was a piano teacher in Wiesbaden from 1856 to 1877. Composing in almost every genre, Raff was extremely prolific and was commonly regarded by his contemporaries as the peer of Johannes Brahms and Wagner. From 1877 until his death he was the highly esteemed director of the Hoch Conservatory in Frankfurt. Raff produced 11 symphonies, concerti for various instruments, operas, choral and chamber music, and piano works. (Source (https://www.britannica.com/biography/Joachim-Raff))
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51dKXb5uJpL.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/613QTWp1abL._SL1000_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51lVwfomHLL.jpg)
I have two discs with trios and one with quartets on cpo and clearly preferred the trios. I have a handful of the symphonies (3,5,7,8,10) and was not totally convinced. I guess I liked #3 ("Im Walde"/in the forest) and #5 "Lenore" best. They are both (like all Raff symphonies) somewhat programmatic although in the former case it is a rather general evocation of moods connected with romantic forest topics. The #5 is based on a ghost ballad by Gottfried Bürger that used to be rather famous (so that my mom's generation in the mid 20th century still sometimes had to learn it by heart in school, there are also some parodies). It's a variant of the ghost lover who comes back from the grave to claim his bride.
The more recent Tudor recordings with Stadlmair seem to be clearly better in sound and playing than the older Tudor set with different conductors.
Quote from: Jo498 on April 25, 2020, 09:51:15 AM
I have two discs with trios and one with quartets on cpo and clearly preferred the trios. I have a handful of the symphonies (3,5,7,8,10) and was not totally convinced. I guess I liked #3 ("Im Walde"/in the forest) and #5 "Lenore" best. They are both (like all Raff symphonies) somewhat programmatic although in the former case it is a rather general evocation of moods connected with romantic forest topics. The #5 is based on a ghost ballad by Gottfried Bürger that used to be rather famous (so that my mom's generation in the mid 20th century still sometimes had to learn it by heart in school, there are also some parodies). It's a variant of the ghost lover who comes back from the grave to claim his bride.
The more recent Tudor recordings with Stadlmair seem to be clearly better in sound and playing than the older Tudor set with different conductors.
Hi
Jo498 - thanks for the comments - listening to the
Piano Trios, Nos. 1 & 4 at the moment and am enjoying - went ahead after perusing Amazon USA and ordered two 'used' CDs from the MP - shown below - probably about all that I need - Raff wrote so much that a more substantial collection could easily amount to one or two dozen CDs! Dave :)
ADDENDUM: Reviews attached for those interested.
.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61wr7pvL69L.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71sH%2B25aKdL._SL1050_.jpg)
Raff Mania! :o Well over the last month or so, I've added nearly a dozen Raff discs to my collection, including the 6-CD box of piano works below. Just arrived from JPC are the 3 Symphonies shown (own No. 5 on Marco Polo), on sale there for $4 USD each - now the Tudor box of all 11 Symphonies + much more is currently selling for $50 USD ($70+ on Amazon USA) - just did not want to invest that much in these works - for those interested in the Symphonies etc., reviews attached, plus take a look at the David Hurwitz Video (https://youtu.be/riVzGAfmn4s). Dave :)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91q%2Bkft8FrL._SL1429_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Ba061asBL._SL1200_.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61HJZmFrHLL.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91wNMkXGqzL._SX355_.jpg) (https://i.scdn.co/image/ab67616d0000b27335e88b6b90e46f19576f4171)
After recently "clicking" with some of the music of Richard Wetz, I'm trying to see if any of the other "unsung" late Romantic German composers are worth exploring. Raff is another obvious example, but I haven't heard a single work of his. Anything worth recommending?
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 15, 2021, 03:40:35 PM
After recently "clicking" with some of the music of Richard Wetz, I'm trying to see if any of the other "unsung" late Romantic German composers are worth exploring. Raff is another obvious example, but I haven't heard a single work of his. Anything worth recommending?
Symphony No. 5 "Lenore" is a good start (not Beethoven's
Leonore, Raff's program is basically the same as that of Dvorak's
The Spectre's Bride). I'm not sure what recording to recommend, though.
Quote from: Daverz on June 15, 2021, 04:55:58 PM
Symphony No. 5 "Lenore" is a good start (not Beethoven's Leonore, Raff's program is basically the same as that of Dvorak's The Spectre's Bride). I'm not sure what recording to recommend, though.
Herrmann and the LPO do a stunning performance. It seems Järvi on Chandos is regarded as quite good and exciting.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41YHGC9XHmL.jpg)
(https://www.chandos.net/artwork/CH5135.jpg)
I love the Jarvi recording of the 5th Symphony; then again, I prefer brisk tempi in this sort of repertoire. If you prefer a more expansive approach, avoid! Jarvi's recording is a full 17 minutes quicker than Herrmann's! :o
One Raff piece that blew me away recently is his String Sextet in G minor, which is filled with energy, humor, lyricism, and great tunes. It's performed marvelously on the below MD&G disc, coupled with the also superb Piano Quintet:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91FP7HPAmBL._SS500_.jpg)
In general, Raff's chamber music is consistently enjoyable and satisfying.
Quote from: kyjo on June 15, 2021, 06:43:16 PM
I love the Jarvi recording of the 5th Symphony; then again, I prefer brisk tempi in this sort of repertoire. If you prefer a more expansive approach, avoid! Jarvi's recording is a full 17 minutes quicker than Herrmann's! :o
One Raff piece that blew me away recently is his String Sextet in G minor, which is filled with energy, humor, lyricism, and great tunes. It's performed marvelously on the below MD&G disc, coupled with the also superb Piano Quintet:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91FP7HPAmBL._SS500_.jpg)
In general, Raff's chamber music is consistently enjoyable and satisfying.
I love the Jarvi and the old Bernard Herrmann recordings. That last movement of the Raff with the ghostly night-ride is quite something. I also like this recording (Yondani Butt, Philharmonia on ASV):
(//)
That wouldn't be the Bernard Herrmann, the composer, would it? Anyway I think I'll check out the Järvi if I can find it.
Through this recent thread discussion, I realized I had this box of Raff symphonies sitting around, but never listened to it. I know I listened to Francesco D'Avalos on ASV in Raff's Symphony 3 ages ago, so I must have been impressed enough to get this box.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61ym%2BnXoayL._SL1000_.jpg)
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 16, 2021, 02:45:00 AM
That wouldn't be the Bernard Herrmann, the composer, would it? Anyway I think I'll check out the Järvi if I can find it.
Yes, one and the same. My first - and only - exposure to his music, through this old Nonesuch lp:
(https://img.discogs.com/WPCA_NfQKzSXHRP7n5Cv03Cpz6Y=/fit-in/460x478/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-3795023-1344713965-8801.gif.jpg)
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 16, 2021, 02:45:00 AM
That wouldn't be the Bernard Herrmann, the composer, would it? Anyway I think I'll check out the Järvi if I can find it.
Haven't heard the Jarvi but the Herrmann is excellent. Not sure any of the other Raff Symphonies quite live up to that standard even in good performances. Generally avoid the old Marco Polo discs which sound like under-prepared read/record sessions with a 2nd rate orchestra that marco Polo were rather noted for in their early days........ Raff is NOT a great composer so he needs performers and interpreters who really believe in what they are doing to bring out the best (hence Herrmann) in the music.
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 16, 2021, 10:55:14 AM
Haven't heard the Jarvi but the Herrmann is excellent. Not sure any of the other Raff Symphonies quite live up to that standard even in good performances. Generally avoid the old Marco Polo discs which sound like under-prepared read/record sessions with a 2nd rate orchestra that marco Polo were rather noted for in their early days........ Raff is NOT a great composer so he needs performers and interpreters who really believe in what they are doing to bring out the best (hence Herrmann) in the music.
No.5 is by far the best IMO. I don't especially enjoy any other work by him but No. 5 is something special.
Well, not sure that I'd give Raff's near entire oeuvre 'the shaft' - ??? :laugh: Lately I've been concentrating more on his orchestral works and solo piano pieces, so after a year or so put on the chamber works below; enjoyable performances and compositions - as good as other more renowned 19th century 'romantic composers' (thinking Mendelssohn & Schumann mainly), well probably not but maybe a closer race than thought? At any rate, I have no problem liking these chamber works; plus, nor do a lot of reviewers - see attachment, if interested. Dave :)
ADDENDUM: My word, the thread went to the 3rd page! :laugh:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/613QTWp1abL._SL1000_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91FP7HPAmBL._SS500_.jpg)
Quote from: SonicMan46 on June 16, 2021, 12:19:06 PM
Well, not sure that I'd give Raff's near entire oeuvre 'the shaft' - ??? :laugh: Lately I've been concentrating more on his orchestral works and solo piano pieces, so after a year or so put on the chamber works below; enjoyable performances and compositions - as good as other more renowned 19th century 'romantic composers' (thinking Mendelssohn & Schumann mainly), well probably not but maybe a closer race than thought? At any rate, I have no problem liking these chamber works; plus, nor do a lot of reviewers - see attachment, if interested. Dave :)
ADDENDUM: My word, the thread went to the 3rd page! :laugh:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/613QTWp1abL._SL1000_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91FP7HPAmBL._SS500_.jpg)
I've only heard a couple of his other symphonies, which I found pleasant enough but not in the same league as 'Lenore' of which I have multiple recordings.
Hurwitz recommended the woodwind (2 flutes, oboes, clarinets, bassoons, horns) sinfonietta op.188 in one of his talks about such pieces. There seems to be only one recording?, Basel/Joho as a filler of the older Tudor recording of the Symphony #11 "Winter" (Venzago). It's a very nice piece, if one likes that kind of stuff and there is obviously far less 19th century competition here than for symphonies.
I have not heard all of his symphonies, of the ones I have heard, I probably like 3 "Forest" and 5 "Lenore" the best, but I am overall not too impressed by Raff. The more recent Tudor series conducted by Stadlmair is considerably better in both sound and playing than the older Tudor series, but both include different fillers with the sinfonietta missing in the Stadlmair series.
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 15, 2021, 03:40:35 PM
After recently "clicking" with some of the music of Richard Wetz, I'm trying to see if any of the other "unsung" late Romantic German composers are worth exploring. Raff is another obvious example, but I haven't heard a single work of his. Anything worth recommending?
The best/most representative work I've heard by Raff is the 1881 version of the Piano Sonata Op. 14. Usual caveat that you have to like this sort of thing.
https://www.youtube.com/v/IIB74BL2Wg4
I haven't listened to anything by Raff for a while - not because of a lack of appreciation, but because exploring other, more recent works have been my focus. I very much enjoy the easy lyricism that he brings to the table, and spent ages in the early days of CD-Rs transferring symphonies by himself and Anton Rubinstein, track by track from their Marco Polo originals into versions I could listen to myself. Neither Raff nor Rubinstein will ever top a GMG Favourites poll, but both have attractive music that can be played both as background music and as focused listening, when desired. For me, as long as you set your expectations in the right place, you won't complain about their quality as a single malt when what you have poured is a decent blended whisky.
I really quite like symphonies 5, 4, 3 and most of all, 6.
I really like Joachim Raff (it's in his honor that I took the nickname Joachim) :)
I particularly like his Lenore symphony (No. 5), but I also like the others (especially Nos. 1, 3, 7 and the Seasons cycle). His piano concerto op. 186 and that for violin n° 2 op. 206 are gorgeous. You should also know his chamber music (string octet op. 176, sextet op. 178, string quartets), etc.
Another fan here. There is so much to enjoy from his pen. Even though I've been more critical with the Symphonies more more, no doubt exists about his craftsmanship and sense of melody and drama.
Symphony No.5 'Lenore' is great and I have multiple recordings of it. The old Bernard Herrmann recording and Yondani Butt's are my favourites. Raff's other symphonies have not made such an impression on me.
I recently got symphonies 9+11 in the Stadlmair series and I think this will be my last Raff. I had had 11 in the earlier Tudor recording that I got also because of the woodwind sinfonietta (this is a more interesting and original piece to me than most of his symphonies and it seems the only available recording). But I didn't have #9 ("Summer") and some people claimed that this was (one of) the best Raff symphonies.
Unfortunately, I am again rather disappointed. My general impression of Raff (and I listened to the "Spring" and the piano concerto piece that was a filler as well recently) is of a "nice but lame" composer. He is best with somewhat atmospheric scherzo or idyllic pieces but these cannot carry a 35-40 min symphony. The programmatic titles often seem barely connected with the music but neither is the music strong enough to provide lasting interest.
I have symphonies 3, 5, 9, 11 with Stadlmair and 8,10,11 in the older Tudor recordings, all with their fillers as well as two discs with trios and one with quartets from cpo and this seems more Raff than I will ever need...
While I can understand criticisms of Raff being a "nice but tame" composer, his consummate craftsmanship and melodic inspiration make him an endearing composer in the same way that Mendelssohn, Saint-Saëns, and Dvorak are to me (not suggesting that Raff was quite on the level of these three, though). His chamber output is more consistently inspired than his orchestral one I'd say, though his undoubted masterpiece is the 5th Symphony. My favorite works of his include:
Symphonies nos. 2-5 and 9
Piano Concerto
Suite for Piano and Orchestra
Cello Concerto no. 2
Tempest and Macbeth Overtures
All 4 piano trios
Both piano quartets
Piano Quintet
String Quartet no. 7 Die schöne Mullerin
String Sextet
How would you compare Joachim Raff with Carl Reinecke?
I'm not super familiar with either, I've heard the symphonies of both a few times and remember liking but not loving Reinecke 2 and Raff 3, but not enough to keep them in the playlist. But after giving Bruch a real deep dive and deciding that I really rate him, I wonder if I should give Reinecke and Raff another chance?
They have a lot of similarities - alive at the same time (though Reinecke lived quite a bit longer), definitely on the conservative side, both drawing stylistically on Mendelssohn, both basically absent from the concert hall today.
Who would you say is better out of Raff and Reinecke and why, or are they really not that similar in your view? If you only had room for one in your collection who would you keep?
Both composers were accomplished craftsmen. Raff strikes me like more tuneful than Reinecke overall, also I think he was a better orchestrator. Reinecke, whilst very worthwhile too, seems more conservative and academic. Reinecke's 2nd Symphony is very nice, the very beginning is already striking; his other two symphonies don't impact me as much as most of Raff's. The best symphonies of latter are, IMO, Nos. 5, 8, 9 and possibly the No. 3.
If I had to choose only one of them, I would definitely pick Raff. I really like his string quartets, Piano Quintet, String Sextet, String Octet, both Piano Quartets, Piano Concerto, Suite for Piano and Orchestra, both Cello Concertos and some other pieces. By Reinecke the pieces that stand out are the Piano Concertos 3 and 4, Violin Concerto, Cello Concerto, Flute Concerto and Harp Concerto. I need to get acquainted with most of his chamber music (the string quartets are nice but not terribly great).
Thanks. I suppose if I'd asked the same question on the Reinecke thread, I'd have got the opposite answer!
I don't know enough music by Reinecke to really compare them. The one work by Reinecke I like most (and probably more than any Raff I have heard) is the trio for oboe, horn, piano op.188 that is haunting in its combination of timbres and atmosphere. But I found the other mixed trios (with clarinet etc.) already a bit disappointing compared to op.188.
Dug out the Raff (the Tudor set with the complete symphonies and suites) and began at the beginning.
Found little to like in the first symphony. It's very long and just not memorable enough for that kind of size.
The second was quite a bit better I thought, and better than I remembered it being; though my favourite of these first works was the Overture in A minor.
I found very little of interest in the first Orchestral suite; pleasant background music but little depth (which, to be fair, is probably exactly what was intended).
Symphony #3 is a big step forward though, as I remembered it being. The theme in the opening movement, with it's noble horns, is up there with any romantic symphony.
Overall there's a lot to like and a lot to dismiss - but enough of the former to make me persevere with Raff, although perhaps a break first. There is a lot of "triumph", bombast and martial stuff in this music: it's very cheerful and "bright" sounding. This was no doubt fashionable at the time, but I wonder whether today we prefer the stereotype of the angsty romantic. Raff, whilst definitely romantic, is about as far away from Angst as it's possible to get - at least on the basis of these first few works.