GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Great Recordings and Reviews => Topic started by: 71 dB on April 15, 2007, 07:49:59 AM

Title: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: 71 dB on April 15, 2007, 07:49:59 AM
One thing that amazes me is the fact that people have heard so many performances of several works. I have never heard Brahms piano concertos and yet some people are able to tell about the differences of half-dozen recordings! How do people get hold of so many versions? Do you loan them from library? Do you just buy many versions of certain works? I have 2 or 3 versions of some works (duplications) but I can't even dream about having 6 version on Brahms piano concertos. I struggle financially to buy just one version!

There are at least 50-100 interesting composers with several interesting works. Having just one version of each means hundreds or thousands of CDs. Who the hell (except Harry) can afford 6 versions of any work?  ??? Someone had nearly 100 versions of Mass in B minor! Insane!
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Don on April 15, 2007, 07:58:49 AM
One thing that amazes me is the fact that people have heard so many performances of several works. I have never heard Brahms piano concertos and yet some people are able to tell about the differences of half-dozen recordings! How do people get hold of so many versions? Do you loan them from library? Do you just buy many versions of certain works? I have 2 or 3 versions of some works (duplications) but I can't even dream about having 6 version on Brahms piano concertos. I struggle financially to buy just one version!

There are at least 50-100 interesting composers with several interesting works. Having just one version of each means hundreds or thousands of CDs. Who the hell (except Harry) can afford 6 versions of any work?  ??? Someone had nearly 100 versions of Mass in B minor! Insane!


Well, monetary considerations certainly play a major role as to how many versions of one work can be afforded.  I buy most of the multiple versions I have of particular works.  Out of my over 100 versions of the Goldberg Variations, maybe 10 of them came my way without purchase.

Have to say that six versions of the Brahms piano concertos is a paltry number given that No. 1 has about 80 recordings and No. 2 over 100.  I have more than six of each, and I don't even consider them among my favorite piano concertos.

Is this all insane?  Don't ask me - I'm still in the asylum.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Don on April 15, 2007, 08:00:22 AM
To 71dB:

How many versions do you own of the following Elgar works:

Sym. 1
Sym. 2
Violin Concerto
Cello Concerto
Violin Sonata
Enigma Variations
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: 71 dB on April 15, 2007, 08:28:46 AM
Well, monetary considerations certainly play a major role as to how many versions of one work can be afforded.  I buy most of the multiple versions I have of particular works.  Out of my over 100 versions of the Goldberg Variations, maybe 10 of them came my way without purchase.

Have to say that six versions of the Brahms piano concertos is a paltry number given that No. 1 has about 80 recordings and No. 2 over 100.  I have more than six of each, and I don't even consider them among my favorite piano concertos.

Is this all insane?  Don't ask me - I'm still in the asylum.

I have zero versions of Goldberg Variations and Bach is #2 composer for me!

To 71dB:

How many versions do you own of the following Elgar works:

Sym. 1
Sym. 2
Violin Concerto
Cello Concerto
Violin Sonata
Enigma Variations

Sym. 1 => 3
Sym. 2 => 2
Violin Concerto => 3
Cello Concerto => 4
Violin Sonata => 2
Enigma Variations => 6 + 2 for piano

I have many Enigmas and Cello Concertos because those works are included in so many Elgar discs!
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: from the new world on April 15, 2007, 11:24:30 AM
One thing that amazes me is the fact that people have heard so many performances of several works .. yet some people are able to tell about the differences of half-dozen recordings!

It is because there are huge differences between two performances that many of us want to hear so many perspectives. To give an example, I have three Gunter Wand Bruckner 5th's. They are the 1989 NDR, 95 Munich and 96 Berlin recordings. If yoy compare the final peroration (last 2 mins) there are many minor details to pick up on. Firstly, the 89 is faster than the other two versions, allied with not as good sound quality or playing means that the horn figure (bar 588-590) is not particularly distinctive (though in fairness it is not meant to be accentuated) and the horns are much weaker in general than the later two versions. In the Munich version, the horns are clearer. Also note that in the coda to the first movement the low brass figures (ie all but the horns in bars 501-507) are done much better, with the different note lengths actually played. Then there is the Berlin version, where the tuba player is more distinctive. Since there are hundreds of such differences in just three performances by the same conductor, it cannot be a surprise to find that some people want to hear these differences and learn more about the work in process. It also helps that all three performances are fantastic and a pleasure to listen to.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: George on April 15, 2007, 11:35:26 AM
One thing that amazes me is the fact that people have heard so many performances of several works. I have never heard Brahms piano concertos and yet some people are able to tell about the differences of half-dozen recordings! How do people get hold of so many versions? Do you loan them from library? Do you just buy many versions of certain works? I have 2 or 3 versions of some works (duplications) but I can't even dream about having 6 version on Brahms piano concertos. I struggle financially to buy just one version!

There are at least 50-100 interesting composers with several interesting works. Having just one version of each means hundreds or thousands of CDs. Who the hell (except Harry) can afford 6 versions of any work?  ??? Someone had nearly 100 versions of Mass in B minor! Insane!


I actually make certain sacrifices so that I can afford more than one version of works that I love.

I also borrow from the library, but lately that experience has become too stressful, so I will be cutting down on that way.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Todd on April 15, 2007, 12:13:42 PM
Do you just buy many versions of certain works?


As Don pointed out, money plays a part, but I just buy everything I want to listen to.  I recently bought four versions of the Emperor at once, and am working my way through three LvB sonata cycles.  'Cause I want to.  If I really like a work, then I want many versions, sometimes at once.  Insane?  Dunno.  Don't care.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Maciek on April 15, 2007, 01:05:56 PM
Don't worry, 71 dB! There are many of us who are in a situation similar to yours. Last year was very good for me in terms of money and I could afford to buy many more CDs than usual but I'm back on diet this year, buying almost only used CDs, and that not very often! The good thing about GMG is that you can ask about performances and then you at least know which recordings to avoid!

George,
I also borrow from the library, but lately that experience has become too stressful, so I will be cutting down on that way.

How so?
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: George on April 15, 2007, 01:13:03 PM

How so?

They list stuff that they don't have.

The copies they do have are often damaged.

The organization system they have is poor.

Stuff put on hold takes weeks, even months to get.

The lines are long to check out and return.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Maciek on April 15, 2007, 01:18:28 PM
Well, I'm not sure if that will be any consolation but, FWIW... we don't have music lending libraries in Poland!!! :-[ At all.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on April 15, 2007, 01:19:02 PM
Yeah, I gave up on hiring cds from librarys a while ago too.

It costs a couple of dollars each time you rent one and its due back in one week!

The copies are usually tatty [and smelly like their old books].

They have a limited selection.

I find Amazon the best for me; Great selection, many sellers so good prices.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: mahlertitan on April 15, 2007, 01:49:37 PM
1) buy
2) borrow
3) download
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: vandermolen on April 16, 2007, 02:07:11 AM
I have over 20 versions of Walton's First Symphony and a similar no for Vaughan Williams Symphony 6. I think it's known as Obsessive Compulsive Disorder  ;D
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Michel on April 16, 2007, 02:28:06 AM
I still think and have always thought that getting a really large number of versions of the same piece is a bit mad, and frankly a waste of money -- especially since many of those committed to record aren't really worth it. I see a value and an enjoyment in listening to several, but not to hundreds!

This is especially true for as the original poster pointed out, there is a great deal more music out there that is worth exploring that both money, and time, might better spent on, in my view.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: The Mad Hatter on April 16, 2007, 02:34:38 AM
Harry: at least your library has classical music. I got through the section in my library in under a month.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Florestan on April 16, 2007, 02:43:53 AM
I have never heard Brahms piano concertos
You're kidding, aren't you?
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 16, 2007, 03:03:23 AM
How do people get hold of so many versions?....I struggle financially to buy just one version!

Well, in my case I have many versions of many works simply because I've lived long enough. I've been collecting recordings seriously for over forty years. If I remember correctly, you've only been into classical music for a few years so far, right? I can afford to really indulge now because I've arrived at a point where I've got a guaranteed income (my army pension), I'm free of debt, the house is paid off, I have no children to support and a wife who supports herself. I can devote my money to pleasure: music, good wine, travel.

The why is easy to answer too: music is an interpretive art and no work has ever been played exactly the same way twice on a recording, not even by the same conductor or soloist. Those differences between performances make repeated listening to the same piece interesting. I'm not talking about just classical music either. In their thirty year career the Grateful Dead never played a song the same way twice. It explains why I've got dozens of versions of their songs, too, and rabidly collect their concert CDs.

Who the hell (except Harry) can afford 6 versions of any work?

Quite a few of us apparently.

Someone had nearly 100 versions of Mass in B minor! Insane!

No comment  ;D

I'll just say my collection of recordings (around 10,000 LPs, CDs, singles and cassettes) has more width than depth. I think the most versions of any single classical work I have is twelve or so. But I have close to 500 composers represented.

Sarge
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: BachQ on April 16, 2007, 03:17:59 AM
It is because there are huge differences between two performances that many of us want to hear so many perspectives.

With concertos, for example, you have differences in soloist, conductor, orchestra, venue,  recording specs, etc. that combine and interact to produce vastly different interpretations.  If you alter just one of these parameters, an entirely new product is achieved . . . . . . Some works are so complex and so nuanced (like the Goldberg variations, Mass in b Minor, Rach 3, Brahms piano concerti, Mahler symphonies) that each version presents a completely different sound world . . . . . .

I would think that the more straight-forward a work is, the less interpretations you need (I don't feel a great need to acquire numerous recordings of Bolero or the 1812 Overture, par example  :D).
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Florestan on April 16, 2007, 03:20:33 AM
(I don't feel a great need to acquire numerous recordings of Bolero or the 1812 Overture, par example  :D).
For the Overture, I would need only the one who plays the cannon shot specified in the score. :) Any recommendation?
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: 71 dB on April 16, 2007, 03:22:48 AM
It seems that people with several versions of the same works are interested of only those few works and can buy 10-100 versions of them. I am interested of basically every work ever composed operettas excluded. I prefer exploring hundreds of obscure composers instead of buying the same few well-known Symphomies and Piano Concertos over and over again.

I have only one version on Walton's 1st Symphony but I have also dedicated discs of such "obscure" composers as:

Tarquinio Merula, William Lawes, Caspar Kittel, Johann Adolf Hasse, Johann Friedrich Fasch, Michel-Richard Delalande, Louis-Nicolas Clérambault, Nikolaus Bruhns, John Blow, Alfonso X, Orazio Benevolo, Joseph Bodin de Boismortier, Antonio Caldara, Giacomo Carissimi, Francesco Onofrio Manfredini, Paolo Lorenzani, Leopold Hofmann, Francesco Geminiani, Georg Muffat, Johannes Schenck, Johann Baptist Vanhal, Francesco Maria Veracini, Sylvius Leopold Weiss, Johann Rosenmüller, Antonio Rosetti, Monsieur de Sainte Colombe, Sergey Ivanovich Taneyev, Barbara Strozzi, Harold Truscott, Philipp Wolfrum, Matthias Weckmann, Michael Haydn, Rued Langgaard, Jacques Paisible, Jacques-Martin Hotteterre, Jean-Nicolas Geoffroy, Joseph-Guy Ropartz, Kôscak Yamada, Michael Praetorius, Pierre de La Rue, Frederic Mompou, Christoph Graupner, and of course Carl Ditters von Dittersdorf.

At the same time I don't have a single disc of the following well-known composers:

Bartók, Bruckner, Ives, Janácek, Liszt, Lutoslawski, Mahler, Messiaen, Paganini, Penderecki, Poulenc, Respighi, Schoenberg, Johann Strauss jr & sr, Telemann, Vaughan Williams, Verdi, Weber & Webern.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: val on April 16, 2007, 03:25:40 AM
In my case, the number of versions of an work depends on several factors:

1) How much I like that work. Regarding Rachmaninov's 2nd piano Concerto, a work that I don't like very much, I have one only version. Byron Janis with Dorati. Of course, I heard many others in concert, radio, or when I had only LP. But, since I like Janis and Dorati I don't feel the need to go any further.

2) When I like an work and find an interpretation that seems ideal to me according to the perspective I have of the work. It is not very frequent but it happens. An example would be Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky by Ancerl. Another one: Tchaikovsky 4th Symphony by Mravinski. I heard Svetlanov and Reiner in Prokofiev, they are good, I heard Svetlanov, Karajan, Furtwängler, Barenboim and many others in Tchaikovsky, some are very good, but in both cases none of them approaches my "ideal" version. So, why duplicate or triplicate my collection of CD ?

3) Works that I deeply love. There, one or even two versions are not enough. There are always new aspects of the work that an inspired version can reveal. I have 11 versions of Beethoven's opus 106: Brendel (VOX and PHILIPS), Backhaus, Kempff 1951, Arrau, Gulda, Schnabel, Gilels (my favorite), Richter, Solomon, Serkin. I had others that I gave away because they didn't interest me: Eschenbach, Kempff (stereo), Barenboim, Pollini.

And there is the case when we can have several versions and never find one that really pleases us. I have the example of Bach's Matthew Passion: there are many good things in Häfliger/Jochum, Equiluz/Harnoncourt, not as many as that in Karl Richter, Herreweghe, Wöldicke, Klemperer, Gardiner and none in Karajan, Pregardien/Harnoncourt, Corboz. This only to give some versions. So, I keep waiting for "my version" of the St Matthew Passion.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Harry on April 16, 2007, 03:26:11 AM
It seems that people with several versions of the same works are interested of only those few works and can buy 10-100 versions of them. I am interested of basically every work ever composed operettas excluded. I prefer exploring hundreds of obscure composers instead of buying the same few well-known Symphomies and Piano Concertos over and over again.

I have only one version on Walton's 1st Symphony but I have also dedicated discs of such "obscure" composers as:

Tarquinio Merula, William Lawes, Caspar Kittel, Johann Adolf Hasse, Johann Friedrich Fasch, Michel-Richard Delalande, Louis-Nicolas Clérambault, Nikolaus Bruhns, John Blow, Alfonso X, Orazio Benevolo, Joseph Bodin de Boismortier, Antonio Caldara, Giacomo Carissimi, Francesco Onofrio Manfredini, Paolo Lorenzani, Leopold Hofmann, Francesco Geminiani, Georg Muffat, Johannes Schenck, Johann Baptist Vanhal, Francesco Maria Veracini, Sylvius Leopold Weiss, Johann Rosenmüller, Antonio Rosetti, Monsieur de Sainte Colombe, Sergey Ivanovich Taneyev, Barbara Strozzi, Harold Truscott, Philipp Wolfrum, Matthias Weckmann, Michael Haydn, Rued Langgaard, Jacques Paisible, Jacques-Martin Hotteterre, Jean-Nicolas Geoffroy, Joseph-Guy Ropartz, Kôscak Yamada, Michael Praetorius, Pierre de La Rue, Frederic Mompou, Christoph Graupner, and of course Carl Ditters von Dittersdorf.

At the same time I don't have a single disc of the following well-known composers:

Bartók, Bruckner, Ives, Janácek, Liszt, Lutoslawski, Mahler, Messiaen, Paganini, Penderecki, Poulenc, Respighi, Schoenberg, Johann Strauss jr & sr, Telemann, Vaughan Williams, Verdi, Weber & Webern.


The first list is awesome, and I expected as much from you my friend.

The second list in part I understand too! :)
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Szykneij on April 16, 2007, 03:27:27 AM
I also borrow from the library, but lately that experience has become too stressful, so I will be cutting down on that way.

C'mon, George. The real stress comes from knowing you have to give it back  ;)
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: 71 dB on April 16, 2007, 03:33:58 AM
You're kidding, aren't you?

No, I don't remember hearing them. Have you heard Elgar's Piano Concerto (completed by Robert Walker) ?

I'll just say my collection of recordings (around 10,000 LPs, CDs, singles and cassettes) has more width than depth. I think the most versions of any single classical work I have is twelve or so. But I have close to 500 composers represented.

Sarge

Well that sounds very reasonable. ;)
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: BachQ on April 16, 2007, 03:34:27 AM
1) How much I like that work. Regarding Rachmaninov's 2nd piano Concerto, a work that I don't like very much, I have one only version. Byron Janis with Dorati. Of course, I heard many others in concert, radio, or when I had only LP. But, since I like Janis and Dorati I don't feel the need to go any further.

Not directed at Val necessarily, but if the single recording of a work you own is suboptimal, then that could be the reason you don't like the composition . . . . . . which would explain why you have only one recording (or a small handful or recordings) of the work and don't feel the need to branch out . . . . . .
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 16, 2007, 03:35:07 AM
It seems that people with several versions of the same works are interested of only those few works and can buy 10-100 versions of them. I am interested of basically every work ever composed operettas excluded. I prefer exploring hundreds of obscure composers instead of buying the same few well-known Symphomies and Piano Concertos over and over again.

As my original post pointed out, collecting many versions of one work and collecting many different composers is not mutually exclusive...given enough time and money that is. Twenty years hence, dB, you might very well find yourself with a dozen versions of the Enigma plus hundreds more composers. Give it time and you too may become as insane as the rest of us  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: 71 dB on April 16, 2007, 03:42:06 AM
The first list is awesome, and I expected as much from you my friend.

Thanks Harry. However, I think it pales compared to the list of your CPO/MDG discs by obcure composers!

The second list in part I understand too! :)

You understand? It may be shocking for many that a classical music fan with 600-700 classical CDs does not have single dics by Verdi, Mahler or Brucker! I just haven't been interested of those composers yet.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: 71 dB on April 16, 2007, 03:48:49 AM
As my original post pointed out, collecting many versions of one work and collecting many different composers is not mutually exclusive...given enough time and money that is. Twenty years hence, dB, you might very well find yourself with a dozen versions of the Enigma plus hundreds more composers. Give it time and you too may become as insane as the rest of us  ;D

Sarge

Yes, you are right. I feel old but I have noticed most of people here are much older than me. Many of you started collecting music before I was born! What's the average age here? Over 40? I am 36. I was 25 when I started to get interested of classical music!  :o

Enigma variations is included on every other Elgar disc and I already have half dozen for orchestra and 2 for solo piano.  ;D I'm half-insane already.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Harry on April 16, 2007, 03:50:10 AM
Thanks Harry. However, I think it pales compared to the list of your CPO/MDG discs by obcure composers!

You understand? It may be shocking for many that a classical music fan with 600-700 classical CDs does not have single dics by Verdi, Mahler or Brucker! I just haven't been interested of those composers yet.

Well that's why I said in part, the Bruckner/Mahler part I did not understand.
And Verdi, well I have a three cd box from Chandos with his overtures, balletmusic etc, and that is a firm recommendation, but my sympathy stops there! ;D
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Bunny on April 16, 2007, 04:36:59 AM
It seems that people with several versions of the same works are interested of only those few works and can buy 10-100 versions of them. I am interested of basically every work ever composed operettas excluded. I prefer exploring hundreds of obscure composers instead of buying the same few well-known Symphomies and Piano Concertos over and over again.

I have only one version on Walton's 1st Symphony but I have also dedicated discs of such "obscure" composers as:

Tarquinio Merula, William Lawes, Caspar Kittel, Johann Adolf Hasse, Johann Friedrich Fasch, Michel-Richard Delalande, Louis-Nicolas Clérambault, Nikolaus Bruhns, John Blow, Alfonso X, Orazio Benevolo, Joseph Bodin de Boismortier, Antonio Caldara, Giacomo Carissimi, Francesco Onofrio Manfredini, Paolo Lorenzani, Leopold Hofmann, Francesco Geminiani, Georg Muffat, Johannes Schenck, Johann Baptist Vanhal, Francesco Maria Veracini, Sylvius Leopold Weiss, Johann Rosenmüller, Antonio Rosetti, Monsieur de Sainte Colombe, Sergey Ivanovich Taneyev, Barbara Strozzi, Harold Truscott, Philipp Wolfrum, Matthias Weckmann, Michael Haydn, Rued Langgaard, Jacques Paisible, Jacques-Martin Hotteterre, Jean-Nicolas Geoffroy, Joseph-Guy Ropartz, Kôscak Yamada, Michael Praetorius, Pierre de La Rue, Frederic Mompou, Christoph Graupner, and of course Carl Ditters von Dittersdorf.

At the same time I don't have a single disc of the following well-known composers:

Bartók, Bruckner, Ives, Janácek, Liszt, Lutoslawski, Mahler, Messiaen, Paganini, Penderecki, Poulenc, Respighi, Schoenberg, Johann Strauss jr & sr, Telemann, Vaughan Williams, Verdi, Weber & Webern.


Well, what are you waiting for?  Get Cracking!  ;)
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: 71 dB on April 16, 2007, 05:56:16 AM
Well that's why I said in part, the Bruckner/Mahler part I did not understand.
And Verdi, well I have a three cd box from Chandos with his overtures, balletmusic etc, and that is a firm recommendation, but my sympathy stops there! ;D

Well, I have never found Bruckner or Mahler that interesting. Years ago a working pal borrowed me all Bruckner symphonies and I found it a boring process to go thru them. Also, I am pissed off by the fact that people keep these guys in so high esteem while Elgar's superb symphonies are kept in marginal, especially the 2nd. So, it takes some mental effort from my part to explore these composers "again".

I found it easy to get used to "romantic" opera singing but getting used to Verdi's and Rossini's music has been hopeless so far. Puccini I like a lot, he is operatic Italian Elgar!

Well, what are you waiting for?  Get Cracking!  ;)

I'm waiting for their turn! I am awaiting the arrival of Bach/Suzuki 18 and the new album of Swedish pop band Standfast. I also have 7 Naxos discs inside plastic wrapping to be listened to. The next disc I buy is most probably by Persian world music group Axiom of Choice. So, the world of music is crowded and even the best composers in history need to wait for their turn.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Don on April 16, 2007, 06:14:06 AM
Well, I have never found Bruckner or Mahler that interesting. Years ago a working pal borrowed me all Bruckner symphonies and I found it a boring process to go thru them. Also, I am pissed off by the fact that people keep these guys in so high esteem while Elgar's superb symphonies are kept in marginal, especially the 2nd.

There are always some aspects of life that are not pleasing.  You'll just have to bite the bullet on this one.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Harry Collier on April 16, 2007, 06:17:12 AM
I'm similar to Sarge: I've been actively buying recordings since 1955, my home is paid off, my children out in the world, and my money now goes on music, books, food, wine and travel. After well over 50 years, I've accumulated a lot of recorded baggage, but still keep on buying since I'm interested in different players and interpreters, as well as in different music and composers. I now have recordings of approximately 12,000 pieces of music (I index by piece of music, rather than by physical medium). So as far as I am concerned, rather than possessing 71 recordings of the Brahms Violin Concerto, over the years I have assembled 71 different performances of Brahms' Op 77.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: 71 dB on April 16, 2007, 06:47:43 AM
I'm similar to Sarge: I've been actively buying recordings since 1955, my home is paid off, my children out in the world, and my money now goes on music, books, food, wine and travel. After well over 50 years, I've accumulated a lot of recorded baggage, but still keep on buying since I'm interested in different players and interpreters, as well as in different music and composers. I now have recordings of approximately 12,000 pieces of music (I index by piece of music, rather than by physical medium). So as far as I am concerned, rather than possessing 71 recordings of the Brahms Violin Concerto, over the years I have assembled 71 different performances of Brahms' Op 77.


How many performances of Brahms' Op 77 did you have when you were 36? I don't have any version of the work yet! I think the times have changed and new fans of classical music have much broader universe to explore. I might be mistaken but I bet the selection of composers and works were very limited back in 1955. So, it was about performances. Nowadays we have labels like Naxos, MDG and CPO providing us with never-before-heard repertoire. So, I have been busy exploring for example middle baroque cantatas and Brahms' Op 77 has never had it's change...
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Greta on April 16, 2007, 06:48:33 AM
How to get a hold of them-

Search in unlikely places, I found CDs selling used at Amazon.co.uk for a decent price that weren't even available (or at high price) in the U.S. Great for British composers, which is what I was checking out (Holst and Elgar :D).

Always if you can buy from the small shops on Amazon, using the "Used & New" Link beside the product. I have foudn their descriptions of condition to be spot on and some use insanely fast shipping, even if you selected the cheapest option!

I also borrow from friends to audition discs. I have a lot of musical friends and we swap CDs, or if they're online we send a few tracks back and forth on a messenger. This is invaluable to really know if you want to purchase a CD (even if I have a copy, I want to have the actual disc in in its full original sonic glory.)

And only in the last resort, there are other ways, that I'm not fond of using. But I have that to thank for introducing me to new composers, and at least getting to just hear a work I've never heard before.

When looking to buy multiple recordings, I have come to always look up recomendations on here first, I take the comments, consider the interpretation that sounds as if it would best suit me, and haven't regretted a purchase yet. :D

I will want to add more recordings of a work if 1.) I love it 2.) I like it but feel another interpretation would help my appreciation 3.) if I see one particular recording get consistent raves

I find with research I'm usually pretty happy at 3 for anything I like, some exceptions are: a work I love but also just adore the recording, and there are few other alternatives for it; Mahler symphonies, because I just love to hear how different interpreters vary in certain sections and am already passing 3 on a few; and warhorses that are rewarding with many interepretations, such as The Rite of Spring, (maybe 6 or 7 there), Scheherazade, Daphnis and Chloe (4 each); and the the one work I would like to be a completist on someday, Holst's Planets. (I'm in the mid-30s on it so far.) LOL A weakness from when I was really young, and I still get excited with anticpation just like a kid each time I get a new one. Even the subpar ones are interesting in certain ways.

Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: knight66 on April 16, 2007, 07:04:23 AM
Now, 71Db, I vividly recall offering to send you some versions of your favourite music, but you told me basically you were not a charity case. Being given CDs has added quite a few versions of pieces to my collection.....so, think on lad.... as they say in parts of England.
Like Sarge, I have been collecting for a long time. Also, certian pieces seem open to a wide range of interpretation and I do add to my fovourite pieces if I find an offer at a tempting price.

Mike
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: 71 dB on April 16, 2007, 07:04:51 AM
Handel's Messiah is one work that I feel several versions would be nice. I have 2 versions:

Naxos: The Scholars Baroque Ensemble (small scale performance)
Decca: Chicago Symphony Orchestra/Solti (large scale performance)

Always if you can buy from the small shops on Amazon, using the "Used & New" Link beside the product. I have foudn their descriptions of condition to be spot on and some use insanely fast shipping, even if you selected the cheapest option!

I use Amazon Marketplace a lot.  ;)
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Poetdante on April 16, 2007, 07:05:17 AM
I agreed with val mostly.
Here I just want to tell my experience.

Collecting nearly 10 years,
I often had to decide between 'expanding repertoires' and 'one more recording that makes me curious'.
Actually, I have been considering about this until now.  :)

In my case,
I have 12 versions of Rachmaninov Piano Concerto No.2 with CD - not include computer files -,
6 versions of Chopin Preludes, and even 7 versions of complete symphony set of Beethoven.
To tell the truth, I listen just 'SOME' recordings what I really like.
Especially, in aspect of Beethoven symphony set, I have not heard whole playing of some sets.
Because of these facts, recently I control myself to 'expanding repertoires'.

However, likely val already wrote, if the piece is what I really love, I cannot bear to listen a new version.
If someone really loves a piece, he will listen many times, even he will see the scores or play the music.
Then he will know or feel about the music better, and he can find a delicate difference in between different recordings.
For example, in the 'Etudes Symphonique' of Schumann, every details of every pianists in the playing are so different.
There can be a 'fantastic' or 'perfect' recordings, but other recordings can show us a different side of the music.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: knight66 on April 16, 2007, 07:07:24 AM
How many performances of Brahms' Op 77 did you have when you were 36? I don't have any version of the work yet! I think the times have changed and new fans of classical music have much broader universe to explore. Nowadays we have labels like Naxos, MDG and CPO providing us with never-before-heard repertoire.

But....Brahms piano concertos are never-before-heard repertoire to you; so why do you feel digging into the obscure to be a superior preference?

Mike
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: 71 dB on April 16, 2007, 07:07:38 AM
Now, 71Db, I vividly recall offering to send you some versions of your favourite music, but you told me basically you were not a charity case. Being given CDs has added quite a few versions of pieces to my collection.....so, think on lad.... as they say in parts of England.
Like Sarge, I have been collecting for a long time. Also, certian pieces seem open to a wide range of interpretation and I do add to my fovourite pieces if I find an offer at a tempting price.

Mike

Well, of course it feels strange to receive music from strangers.  ;)

I don't know how to respond such offer....
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Don on April 16, 2007, 07:08:03 AM
Now, 71Db, I vividly recall offering to send you some versions of your favourite music, but you told me basically you were not a charity case.

You may all feel free to consider me a charity case.  I've got a very large mailbox that's always ready to receive large packages.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Don on April 16, 2007, 07:09:21 AM
Well, of course it feels strange to receive music from strangers.  ;)

I don't know how to respond such offer....

Just say YES!
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: 71 dB on April 16, 2007, 07:15:36 AM
But....Brahms piano concertos are never-before-heard repertoire to you; so why do you feel digging into the obscure to be a superior preference?

Mike

yes, a year ago I didn't even know/remember Brahms had Piano Concertos! I have added them to my wishlist (Chailly) and I am waiting for the price to drop (currently £10.60+shipping). I have used my budget for this month thou.  :-\
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: MishaK on April 16, 2007, 07:20:19 AM
71db,

Are there no used CD stores in your neck of the woods? That was a prime source for me for many years when I was a students or had other budget constraints. Also, do you have a record player? Used LPs can be found for ridiculously cheap these days. I still have a fair number of LPs in my collection.

But remember: where there is an obsession, means will be found.  ;D
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: George on April 16, 2007, 07:20:43 AM
Well, of course it feels strange to receive music from strangers.  ;)

I don't know how to respond such offer....


Just say "Send them to George." 

 ;) ;D ;D
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: knight66 on April 16, 2007, 07:31:40 AM
Well, of course it feels strange to receive music from strangers.  ;)

I don't know how to respond such offer....

Evidently.

Mike
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: 71 dB on April 16, 2007, 07:36:12 AM
71db,

Are there no used CD stores in your neck of the woods? That was a prime source for me for many years when I was a students or had other budget constraints. Also, do you have a record player? Used LPs can be found for ridiculously cheap these days. I still have a fair number of LPs in my collection.

But remember: where there is an obsession, means will be found.  ;D

O Mensch,

Yes, there are used CD stores in Helsinki. I have bought some discs from those places of course. I just need to get my ass up and visit those places. I am planning of selling some of my discs away.

I don't have a record player. I am a supporter of clean digital sound and vinyls represent stone-age technology for me.

In fact I don't have an obsession. I just feel incomplete while compairing myself with many veterans of classical music collecting. Four new CDs per month is petty much enough for me but it means only ~50 CDs per year.

It's interesting how differently people buy CDs.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: MishaK on April 16, 2007, 07:53:19 AM
In fact I don't have an obsession. I just feel incomplete while compairing myself with many veterans of classical music collecting. Four new CDs per month is petty much enough for me but it means only ~50 CDs per year.

Well, the difference is that those "veterans" are obsessed.  ;D  For me, it started with comparing performaces of Symphonie fantastique (I own 20+), then Brahms, Bruckner, etc.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: knight66 on April 16, 2007, 08:20:38 AM

In fact I don't have an obsession.

Elgar?

Mike
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Bunny on April 16, 2007, 08:23:05 AM
Well, I have never found Bruckner or Mahler that interesting. Years ago a working pal borrowed me all Bruckner symphonies and I found it a boring process to go thru them. Also, I am pissed off by the fact that people keep these guys in so high esteem while Elgar's superb symphonies are kept in marginal, especially the 2nd. So, it takes some mental effort from my part to explore these composers "again".

I found it easy to get used to "romantic" opera singing but getting used to Verdi's and Rossini's music has been hopeless so far. Puccini I like a lot, he is operatic Italian Elgar!

I'm waiting for their turn! I am awaiting the arrival of Bach/Suzuki 18 and the new album of Swedish pop band Standfast. I also have 7 Naxos discs inside plastic wrapping to be listened to. The next disc I buy is most probably by Persian world music group Axiom of Choice. So, the world of music is crowded and even the best composers in history need to wait for their turn.

A tall stack of unopened cds never stopped this music lover from purchasing more.  We multiple junkies go weak at the knees at the sight of a great recording at a good price.  If the recording is rare or oop, we have been known to beg, borrow and steal to acquire it.  I draw the line at murder, but there are some...   ;)
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: 71 dB on April 16, 2007, 08:25:03 AM
Elgar????????????????

Mike

Well, yeah but how many Elgar discs are there? Not many! Mozart would be different!

A tall stack of unopened cds never stopped this music lover from purchasing more.  We multiple junkies go weak at the knees at the sight of a great recording at a good price.  If the recording is rare or oop, we have been known to beg, borrow and steal to acquire it.  I draw the line at murder, but there are some...   ;)

Well, if you didn't see I lost my temper earlier today because I lost an eBay auction of Complete Cantatas by Nikolaus Bruhns.  :-\
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: dirkronk on April 16, 2007, 08:28:51 AM
It may be shocking for many that a classical music fan with 600-700 classical CDs does not have single dics by Verdi, Mahler or Brucker! I just haven't been interested of those composers yet.

You'll get there.

It took me years to get interested in Mahler and Bruckner...and that was with friends almost incessantly telling me how "great" these composers were, not to mention chiding me and urging me to listen. Long-winded, tedious, sleep-inducing...such were the ways I tended to look on their work. Finally, two of my friends kidnapped me (well...sorta), plied me with wine and forced me to listen to five or six different interpretations of the first movement of the Bruckner 4th. Not the WHOLE movement, but about 7 to 10 select minutes. The first three or four selections were almost painful...AND boring...and I figured I'd escape with my aural prejudices intact. But in the last two or three, I began to get a sense of the obvious differences in pacing, phrasing, separation of orchestral choirs...not to mention sonic differences and pure quality of playing. In fact, the last version they played for me made me sit up, perk up my ears and actually ENJOY what I was hearing. So I came away from my "captivity" not sold on Bruckner per se, but definitely convinced that interps make a BIG difference in whether you enjoy certain music. Also, after that, I gradually grew to love the Bruckner 4th more and more. Oh...and the version that convinced me was NOT a big name orchestra/conductor combo--it was a private tape of a local chamber orchestra. It wasn't a sonic blockbuster and the ensemble was even a bit scruffy. But such was the obvious energy and affection and committed playing by the group and its conductor that to my untrained ear this performance was preferable to versions by Karajan, Klemperer, Bohm, Jochum and others that I'd heard that evening.

That was well over 20 years ago.

Of course, you might not respond well to such a "musical intervention," but when you're ready to give the long-winded composers (Bruckner, Mahler et al) a try, don't ignore the importance of interpretation. In my own experience, I found Bruckner's symphonies 4 and 9 and Mahler's 1 and 4 to be shorter and perhaps more approachable than many of their other compositions. But naturally, YMMV.

Enjoy the music and enjoy the journey,

Dirk
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: George on April 16, 2007, 08:29:15 AM
A tall stack of unopened cds never stopped this music lover from purchasing more.  We multiple junkies go weak at the knees at the sight of a great recording at a good price.  If the recording is rare or oop, we have been known to beg, borrow and steal to acquire it.  I draw the line at murder, but there are some...   ;)

Funny, Bunny!  ;D
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Larry Rinkel on April 16, 2007, 08:40:57 AM
You understand? It may be shocking for many that a classical music fan with 600-700 classical CDs does not have single dics by Verdi, Mahler or Brucker! I just haven't been interested of those composers yet.

Really? they are much more interesting than Elgar.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on April 16, 2007, 08:52:20 AM
Years ago a working pal borrowed me all Bruckner symphonies and I found it a boring process to go thru them. Also, I am pissed off by the fact that people keep these guys in so high esteem while Elgar's superb symphonies are kept in marginal, especially the 2nd.

So let me get this straight: People(other than you of course) value Bruckner more than Elgar because:

a) During the past 100 years or so there is a vast conspiracy started by the so-called experts to inculcate this hideous lie that Bruckner is a better composer than Elgar. Many of these experts are composers, performers, or musicologists of the first order and are not related to either composer in any way. This has in turn lead record companies and the public to value the "wrong" music.

b) Bruckner is a better composer than Elgar.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Larry Rinkel on April 16, 2007, 08:58:52 AM
So let me get this straight: People(other than you of course) value Bruckner more than Elgar because:

a) During the past 100 years or so there is a vast conspiracy started by the so-called experts to inculcate this hideous lie that Bruckner is a better composer than Elgar. Many of these experts are composers, performers, or musicologists of the first order and are not related to either composer in any way. This has in turn lead record companies and the public to value the "wrong" music.

b) Bruckner is a better composer than Elgar.

This reminds me of a wicked but wonderful quip by Charles Rosen, responding to a complaint that there was a "conspiracy" to suppress the music of Hans Pfitzner. I'm slightly misquoting from memory, but Rosen replied: "If such a conspiracy exists, one wants to know where one can sign up to join."  :D :D :D
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: 71 dB on April 16, 2007, 09:38:58 AM
Really? they are much more interesting than Elgar.

Not to me.

So let me get this straight: People(other than you of course) value Bruckner more than Elgar because:

a) During the past 100 years or so there is a vast conspiracy started by the so-called experts to inculcate this hideous lie that Bruckner is a better composer than Elgar. Many of these experts are composers, performers, or musicologists of the first order and are not related to either composer in any way. This has in turn lead record companies and the public to value the "wrong" music.

b) Bruckner is a better composer than Elgar.

I am not questioning Bruckners greatness. I am just trying to hint people that Elgar is much greater than they think. Elgar's music blows me away. Bruckner's music has not. If Bruckner indeed is better it isn't helping me.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Don on April 16, 2007, 11:53:51 AM
Not to me.

I am not questioning Bruckners greatness. I am just trying to hint people that Elgar is much greater than they think. Elgar's music blows me away. Bruckner's music has not. If Bruckner indeed is better it isn't helping me.

Can't we dump this "better" stuff and simply enjoy the composers we like and avoid those we don't.  Nobody can prove that Bruckner is better or worse than Elgar - best to leave it alone.

Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Larry Rinkel on April 16, 2007, 04:23:34 PM
Can't we dump this "better" stuff and simply enjoy the composers we like and avoid those we don't.  Nobody can prove that Bruckner is better or worse than Elgar - best to leave it alone.

We can try, but it ain't gonna work. Why? because no one wants to believe the music he/she likes lacks merit, and no one wants to believe he/she is deaf to music of quality. Of course merit can't be "proven" in the sense of a mathematical theorem, but the idea of greatness or merit is instilled in all of us from an early age and is not so easily set aside. Hence all these "my composer can lick your composer" battles. It's not the same thing as saying one likes or dislikes olives or oysters.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Justin Ignaz Franz Bieber on April 16, 2007, 07:42:39 PM
i for one get many recordings of something to find the perfect one & i don't stop until i've found it, but only if i like the work enough to make it worthwhile of course. then when i find the perfect one i might get more to make sure that it really is perfect. ;D luckily i haven't done that with many things though. if i really get lucky (as with the goldberg variations) i could find the perfect recording right away. with others (the cello suites) it has taken longer. i can see myself doing that with bach's cantatas, if i had the cash .  :P
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Harry Collier on April 16, 2007, 11:34:03 PM
I might be mistaken but I bet the selection of composers and works were very limited back in 1955. So, it was about performances.

Not much choice of performances back in 1955! For the Brahms violin concerto, for example, most record stores could offer you Oistrakh (DGG), Martzy (Columbia) or de Vito (HMV). End of offers.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Siedler on April 17, 2007, 12:49:23 AM
Yeah, I gave up on hiring cds from librarys a while ago too.

It costs a couple of dollars each time you rent one and its due back in one week!
It costs to use library there? Here in Finland it's free and my local library has a wide collection of classical music.  8)
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Harry on April 17, 2007, 01:02:35 AM
It costs to use library there? Here in Finland it's free and my local library has a wide collection of classical music.  8)

What a delightful circumstances that lending classical cd's are free. A very good example for every country to do! :)
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: 71 dB on April 17, 2007, 01:30:10 AM
What a delightful circumstances that lending classical cd's are free. A very good example for every country to do! :)
Taxation level in Finland is higher than many other countries but the money does not disappear anywhere; we get free public services like this for it.  :)
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: George on April 17, 2007, 02:07:42 AM
i for one get many recordings of something to find the perfect one & i don't stop until i've found it, but only if i like the work enough to make it worthwhile of course. then when i find the perfect one i might get more to make sure that it really is perfect. ;D luckily i haven't done that with many things though. if i really get lucky (as with the goldberg variations) i could find the perfect recording right away. with others (the cello suites) it has taken longer. \

I had the same experience myself. Who do you like in the suites?
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: George on April 17, 2007, 02:08:44 AM
What a delightful circumstances that lending classical cd's are free. A very good example for every country to do! :)

Free in America too, but alas - "you get what you pay for."  :-\
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Hector on April 17, 2007, 05:36:13 AM
One thing that amazes me is the fact that people have heard so many performances of several works. I have never heard Brahms piano concertos and yet some people are able to tell about the differences of half-dozen recordings! How do people get hold of so many versions? Do you loan them from library? Do you just buy many versions of certain works? I have 2 or 3 versions of some works (duplications) but I can't even dream about having 6 version on Brahms piano concertos. I struggle financially to buy just one version!

There are at least 50-100 interesting composers with several interesting works. Having just one version of each means hundreds or thousands of CDs. Who the hell (except Harry) can afford 6 versions of any work?  ??? Someone had nearly 100 versions of Mass in B minor! Insane!


It's called listening to the radio but I have BBC Radio 3 that, this morning, played yet another recording of the 'Pastoral' in a version I have already.

There are certain popular works that crop up time and time again.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on April 17, 2007, 07:03:36 AM
Taxation level in Finland is higher than many other countries but the money does not disappear anywhere; we get free public services like this for it.  :)

So in Finland the state takes all your money and redistribute it in terms of services. I didn't know Finland is a Communist country.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Que on April 17, 2007, 07:36:07 AM
So in Finland the state takes all your money and redistribute it in terms of services. I didn't know Finland is a Communist country.

Any state redistributes wealth and resources - just the degree of redistribution and the methods used vary from one country to another.


On topic: I don't usually aim for multiple versions of the same work, like Don.

But certain factors already mentioned lead to multiple versions of some pieces:
- Not finding the "right" performance/performer right away. I dump the rest immediately when I find it! ;D
- Special interest in particular pieces, which leads to several versions that I find equally interesting. Examples: several works by Bach, the Beethoven symphonies and concertos, ditto for Brahms.
- Over time the number of multiple versions rises.

Q
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: 71 dB on April 17, 2007, 07:49:23 AM
So in Finland the state takes all your money and redistribute it in terms of services. I didn't know Finland is a Communist country.

Did I say all money is taken? You can call Finland a comminist country if you want but the same happens in many western countries as Que stated well. Free library services do not cost that much anyway.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: 71 dB on April 17, 2007, 08:04:39 AM
I have the following problem with comparing multiple versions:

Version A. I know it well and while listening to it I remember how the next bar/second sounds. Same with version B (and possibly with other versions), but when listening to version B I can't remember version A that accurately because version B masks it out of my mind. Other people can easily tell version A is faster/slower than version B but I can't. It's fuzzy for me because I am relativistic listener. I am also very bad evaluating performances. Sound quality is my thing because I am an acoustics engineer. The difference between good and bad sound is very very clear for me.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: George on April 17, 2007, 08:43:40 AM
I have the following problem with comparing multiple versions:

Version A. I know it well and while listening to it I remember how the next bar/second sounds. Same with version B (and possibly with other versions), but when listening to version B I can't remember version A that accurately because version B masks it out of my mind. Other people can easily tell version A is faster/slower than version B but I can't. It's fuzzy for me because I am relativistic listener. I am also very bad evaluating performances. Sound quality is my thing because I am an acoustics engineer. The difference between good and bad sound is very very clear for me.

Care to share your top ten best recorded performances?
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: 71 dB on April 17, 2007, 08:58:47 AM
Care to share your top ten best recorded performances?

Top 10 is a bit hard to make but here is 2:

Rameau - Dardanus - Minkowski - [Archiv]
Mendelssohn/Bruch - Octets - Kodály Quartet+Auer Quartet [Naxos]
 
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Don on April 17, 2007, 09:08:10 AM
I have the following problem with comparing multiple versions:

Version A. I know it well and while listening to it I remember how the next bar/second sounds. Same with version B (and possibly with other versions), but when listening to version B I can't remember version A that accurately because version B masks it out of my mind. Other people can easily tell version A is faster/slower than version B but I can't. It's fuzzy for me because I am relativistic listener.

Well, just look at the timings on the disc (assuming repeats are handled the same).
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: 71 dB on April 17, 2007, 09:17:53 AM
Well, just look at the timings on the disc (assuming repeats are handled the same).

I used tempo as an example. More difficult is for example the quality of singing. What reveals Robin Blaze a bad singer? Every singer has a personal voice and style of signing. How to evaluate them?

Perforances are different. They have many good aspects as well as bad one. I don't see it an easy task to put these performances in order.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: George on April 17, 2007, 09:26:38 AM
Top 10 is a bit hard to make but here is 2:

Rameau - Dardanus - Minkowski - [Archiv]
Mendelssohn/Bruch - Octets - Kodály Quartet+Auer Quartet [Naxos]
 

Don't have that one on Naxos, but I do have other Kodaly recordings on that label. I agree, they sound superb!
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: knight66 on April 17, 2007, 09:29:35 AM
I have seen a few sour comments on Robin Blaze, I have not heard the recordings that were regarded as unsatisfactory, but I have heard several others that I thought were OK. But I do not find it a distinctive or beautiful voice and if you were to specifically compare him in a piece with several other counter tenors such as Scholl, Daniels or Chance, you can detect a much lusher tone, a wider range of colour in the voice, more expressiveness in the use of the words.

This goes for any singer, if you start to compare side by side, eventually you carry that specific voice in your head and know how others measure against it.

Mike
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: George on April 17, 2007, 09:31:21 AM

This goes for any singer, if you start to compare side by side, eventually you carry that specific voice in your head and know how others measure against it.

Mike

I fully agree Mike. My Dr. says the voice in my head will probably always be there. Now if it would only sing.... ::)
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: 71 dB on April 17, 2007, 09:34:55 AM
Don't have that one on Naxos, but I do have other Kodaly recordings on that label. I agree, they sound superb!

More discs (SACD) with excellent sound:

Beethoven - Piano Sonatas - Ronald Brautigam [BIS]
Mozart - Flute Concertos - Sharon Bezaly [BIS]
J. S. Bach - Cantatas Vol. 30 - BCJ/Suzuki [BIS]
 
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: 71 dB on April 17, 2007, 09:37:30 AM
I have seen a few sour comments on Robin Blaze, I have not heard the recordings that were regarded as unsatisfactory, but I have heard several others that I thought were OK. But I do not find it a distinctive or beautiful voice and if you were to specifically compare him in a piece with several other counter tenors such as Scholl, Daniels or Chance, you can detect a much lusher tone, a wider range of colour in the voice, more expressiveness in the use of the words.

This goes for any singer, if you start to compare side by side, eventually you carry that specific voice in your head and know how others measure against it.

Mike

Scholl is wonderful indeed but his recordings are limited. Mostly some compilations albums of Handel...  :-\
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Harry on April 17, 2007, 09:44:25 AM
Scholl is wonderful indeed but his recordings are limited. Mostly some compilations albums of Handel...  :-\

Although his voice changed over the years, and I think it not better.
Most of his early recordings I have, but I stopped several years ago.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: 71 dB on April 17, 2007, 09:47:34 AM
Although his voice changed over the years, and I think it not better.
Most of his early recordings I have, but I stopped several years ago.

Changed? When and how?  ??? Is October 1997 early?
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Harry on April 17, 2007, 09:51:57 AM
Changed? When and how?  ??? Is October 1997 early?

The last cd I bought from him was a Harmonia Mundi cd, with cantatas from divers composers, that must be some years ago.
I am a counter tenor myself, and therefore I have strong opinions of such a voice.
The soft grained voice from Scholl changed into a somewhat harsh and sharp timbre, and more unnatural vibrato.
But in the line of many other counter tenors, Scholl fits in well with the rest.

German Baroque Cantatas it was!
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: 71 dB on April 17, 2007, 09:59:00 AM
The last cd I bought from him was a Harmonia Mundi cd, with cantatas from divers composers, that must be some years ago.
I am a counter tenor myself, and therefore I have strong opinions of such a voice.
The soft grained voice from Scholl changed into a somewhat harsh and sharp timbre, and more unnatural vibrato.
But in the line of many other counter tenors, Scholl fits in well with the rest.

You are a counter tenor!? That explains some of your opinions about singers. My understanding of singing is next to zero so I can accept almost any singer Robin Blaze included.  ;D
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: MishaK on April 17, 2007, 10:43:36 AM
German Barque Cantatas it was!

Wassermusik, I gather?
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: knight66 on April 17, 2007, 11:01:18 AM
Harry, How do you rate David Daniels? There are some new ones coming along who are all part of this new generation who manage a much more rounded tone than say Bowman. I have some Alfred Deller recordings, he gentles his way around the upper register whereas now, the singers need to be able to project fireworks. It was nevertheless a beautiful and affecting voice.

Mike
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Siedler on April 17, 2007, 11:09:58 AM
More difficult is for example the quality of singing.
Listen to these two clips
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XukReKq0uDI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvrHxQ3qjAE

Both of Maria Callas singing O Mio Babbino Caro but I think it's very easy to notice the difference, her voice in the latter clip is very damaged.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: 71 dB on April 17, 2007, 11:37:14 AM
Listen to these two clips
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XukReKq0uDI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvrHxQ3qjAE

Both of Maria Callas singing O Mio Babbino Caro but I think it's very easy to notice the difference, her voice in the latter clip is very damaged.

Yes, but there is much more than that. The sound quality issues. YouTube uses heavy compression for both video and sound creating a lot of distortion* to the original sound. The original recordings are both old having their sound quality limitations, the first one having unbearable distortion. The acoustics of the halls are different, so are the microphone set-ups. Someone might have recorded these programs on their VHS-recorders adding distortion. Compared to these issues the "damage" in her voice is just one problem among other problems.

Comparing young Callas and old Callas is like comparing raw apple and mellow apple. Comparing two different singers is more like comparing apples and oranges.

______________________________________________________
*General audio distortion is not limited to THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) or THD+N (...+Noise). There are many types of distortions (any chances from the original signal).
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: George on April 17, 2007, 11:45:09 AM
Listen to these two clips
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XukReKq0uDI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvrHxQ3qjAE

Both of Maria Callas singing O Mio Babbino Caro but I think it's very easy to notice the difference, her voice in the latter clip is very damaged.

Indeed. Great example!  :)
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: knight66 on April 17, 2007, 11:52:20 AM
Yes, I thought one would be Callas in that final disasterous concert tour. The differences are indeed marked, the voice so utterly recognisable.

Mike
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Justin Ignaz Franz Bieber on April 17, 2007, 12:37:08 PM
I had the same experience myself. Who do you like in the suites?

i like fournier, tortelier, casals & markson from start to finish; others (rostropovich, starker & others) have their moments.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 17, 2007, 05:41:26 PM
Scholl is wonderful indeed but his recordings are limited. Mostly some compilations albums of Handel...  :-\

Well, we wouldn't want to slight Scholl, 71db. He's actually had quite a prolific recording career.

His Bach is especially beautiful.




Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: knight66 on April 17, 2007, 09:35:22 PM
96 hits for him on Amazon....not all Handel...or Bach.

Mike
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: 71 dB on April 18, 2007, 01:27:27 AM
96 hits for him on Amazon....not all Handel...or Bach.

Mike

96 hits?!?  :o

I need to take my words back fast! I thought he had about 10!
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: knight66 on April 18, 2007, 01:59:09 AM
Some of that total may contain some duplicates, but he has quite a few recital discs and has been included in quite a range of large scale recordings. I recommend his performance of Pergolesi Stabat Mater where he is partnered by Barbara Bonney.

Also this which as music and as a performance is stunningly beautiful.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B0000007AM.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_V44527103_SS500_.jpg)

Finally this, which may specifically interest you.
Scholl - German Baroque Cantatas
~ Johann Christoph Bach (Composer), Dietrich Buxtehude (Composer), Philipp Heinrich Erlebach (Composer), Giovanni Legrenzi (Composer), Concerto delle Viole
(http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00000DLVN.02._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg)

Mike
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Florestan on April 18, 2007, 02:07:06 AM
I recommend his performance of Pergolesi Stabat Mater where he is partnered by Barbara Bonney.
I second that wholeheartedly.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Grazioso on April 18, 2007, 02:20:35 AM
Harry, How do you rate David Daniels? There are some new ones coming along who are all part of this new generation who manage a much more rounded tone than say Bowman. I have some Alfred Deller recordings, he gentles his way around the upper register whereas now, the singers need to be able to project fireworks. It was nevertheless a beautiful and affecting voice.

Mike

I'm no expert, but to my ears, some of the younger generation of countertenors, like Daniels and Mera, blow guys like Bowman and Deller out of the water, at least on a technical level.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: knight66 on April 18, 2007, 02:30:08 AM
I have never been able to endure Bowman who to my ears has an acidic voice. He is still hawking his bones around. As a bridge between the old guard and the new, Michael Chance was a very fine singer, ultra expressive in Bach's St John Passion. I sang in choir with him as soloist a number of times and he converted me to the sound of the Countertenor.

Deller was basically the first, he deliberately wore a beard so people knew he was not a castrato. His voice is really beautiful, but his technique does not permit much volume at all. Especially in the upper reaches, it is a real falsetto without any volume at all. He was a very tasteful musician and all those we hear now owe him a great debt as he basically invented the concept for public singing.

Mike
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Harry on April 18, 2007, 02:32:11 AM
Harry, How do you rate David Daniels? There are some new ones coming along who are all part of this new generation who manage a much more rounded tone than say Bowman. I have some Alfred Deller recordings, he gentles his way around the upper register whereas now, the singers need to be able to project fireworks. It was nevertheless a beautiful and affecting voice.

Mike

Daniels has a clear and soft grained voice, and his upper register sounds very good to my ears. Bowman in his early days was a joy to hear, with not one harsh sound, but today there is not much left anymore. Michael Chance had its good times too, but the latest things that I heard from him, show that his voice is going the same way as Bowman's.
I treasure many old records from the seventies and eighties.
One of the major counters at the moment is Philipp Jarousky, a voice like a bell, and the ability to sing very soft without losing the tension in his voice.
But Mera is the absolute top for me. Just listen at the first 6 or so volumes from the Bach-Suzuki cycle. That is really out of this world.
I agree with you about the voice of Deller, and for that matter the voice from Rene Jacobs, that was really dreadful, with this nasty side effect of his voice.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Harry on April 18, 2007, 02:34:39 AM
I'm no expert, but to my ears, some of the younger generation of countertenors, like Daniels and Mera, blow guys like Bowman and Deller out of the water, at least on a technical level.

Agreed!
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: 71 dB on April 18, 2007, 02:34:54 AM
Finally this, which may specifically interest you.
Scholl - German Baroque Cantatas
~ Johann Christoph Bach (Composer), Dietrich Buxtehude (Composer), Philipp Heinrich Erlebach (Composer), Giovanni Legrenzi (Composer), Concerto delle Viole
(http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00000DLVN.02._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg)

Mike


I have this.  :)
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Harry on April 18, 2007, 02:35:45 AM
I have never been able to endure Bowman who to my ears has an acidic voice. He is still hawking his bones around. As a bridge between the old guard and the new, Michael Chance was a very fine singer, ultra expressive in Bach's St John Passion. I sang in choir with him as soloist a number of times and he converted me to the sound of the Countertenor.

Deller was basically the first, he deliberately wore a beard so people knew he was not a castrato. His voice is really beautiful, but his technique does not permit much volume at all. Especially in the upper reaches, it is a real falsetto without any volume at all. He was a very tasteful musician and all those we hear now owe him a great debt as he basically invented the concept for public singing.

Mike

Agreed too! :)
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: knight66 on April 18, 2007, 03:04:05 AM
Harry, I have two discs by Jarousky, both Vivaldi and I think he is rather special. I have never heard Mera, though I have read about him....However, I have just now ordered this.....The Best of Yoshikazu Mera
~ Sergey Rachmaninov (Composer), George Frideric Handel (Composer), Johann Sebastian Bach (Composer), Yoshikazu Mera

Mind you, the cover goes straight into the worst cover thread....yuck!
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000079AZQ.02._SCLZZZZZZZ_SS500_.jpg)

Thanks for prompting me. If you know of other up and coming voices, let me know.

Mike
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: lukeottevanger on April 18, 2007, 10:24:07 AM
Wassermusik, I gather?

Well, it does have the phenomenal Lament Ach, dass ich Wassers g'nug hatte by the senior JC Bach (JSB's uncle). Worth the price of this (ludicrously over-packaged) disc alone.

My own buying habits - I tend to buy unknown pieces on frequent whims (which change every day, thus ensuring a pretty wide-ranging and comprehensive CD collection); alternative performances of pieces I already have when they turn up by chance; and those historical performances I want by more careful design and research.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Grazioso on April 19, 2007, 02:11:18 AM
Harry, I have two discs by Jarousky, both Vivaldi and I think he is rather special. I have never heard Mera, though I have read about him....However, I have just now ordered this.....The Best of Yoshikazu Mera

A great Mera disc off the beaten path is Mother's Songs: Japanese Popular Songs (BIS), a collection of art settings of folk tunes, accompanied by piano. That guy has an amazing voice and subtle control of it.

At least in his heyday, Gerard Lesne has a really a beautiful countertenor voice. I haven't heard anything recent to judge.

Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Harry on April 19, 2007, 02:21:55 AM
Harry, I have two discs by Jarousky, both Vivaldi and I think he is rather special. I have never heard Mera, though I have read about him....However, I have just now ordered this.....The Best of Yoshikazu Mera
~ Sergey Rachmaninov (Composer), George Frideric Handel (Composer), Johann Sebastian Bach (Composer), Yoshikazu Mera

Mind you, the cover goes straight into the worst cover thread....yuck!
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000079AZQ.02._SCLZZZZZZZ_SS500_.jpg)

Thanks for prompting me. If you know of other up and coming voices, let me know.

Mike


Blimey the cover is indeed not that great.............
It should be interesting to hear him in Rachmanininov.
I always keep a close watch on new counters, so I will.
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Harry on April 19, 2007, 02:24:42 AM
A great Mera disc off the beaten path is Mother's Songs: Japanese Popular Songs (BIS), a collection of art settings of folk tunes, accompanied by piano. That guy has an amazing voice and subtle control of it.

At least in his heyday, Gerard Lesne has a really a beautiful countertenor voice. I haven't heard anything recent to judge.



Gerard Lesne's voice is also beginning to fall the wrong way, but luckely I have many highlights on cd from him. :)
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: knight66 on April 19, 2007, 03:33:34 AM
A great Mera disc off the beaten path is Mother's Songs: Japanese Popular Songs (BIS), a collection of art settings of folk tunes, accompanied by piano. That guy has an amazing voice and subtle control of it.


Grazioso, Thanks...the disc I mention seems to have about 10 of these art songs. I listened to some clips; as I wondered whether this was going to be cross-over muck, but they sound engaging.

Mike
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: knight66 on April 19, 2007, 11:46:32 AM
A clip of Michael Chance singing Bach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHbOOe8n2gY

Mike

Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Grazioso on April 20, 2007, 02:14:13 AM
Grazioso, Thanks...the disc I mention seems to have about 10 of these art songs. I listened to some clips; as I wondered whether this was going to be cross-over muck, but they sound engaging.

Mike

They're more like Lieder, not "popular songs" in our usual Western sense of Britney Spears :)
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Mark on March 08, 2008, 04:18:47 AM
Who the hell (except Harry) can afford 6 versions of any work?

Before my daughter came along, I had more money (and certainly, more time) to indulge in buying multiple recordings of works I love. It's well known here that I own about 20 versions of Rachmaninov's All-night Vigil, and 14 of Brahms' German Requiem. And to address the number of versions I have of the works you mentioned, I have about six or seven of both of Brahms' Piano Concerti.

For me, it's not a question of not wanting to hear other works by lesser-known (or even, well-known) composers, but one of balancing depth and breadth in my collection. How else can one make 'impartial' recommendations of recordings if one has only a single copy of any given work? ???
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Harry on March 08, 2008, 04:43:07 AM
Before my daughter came along, I had more money (and certainly, more time) to indulge in buying multiple recordings of works I love. It's well known here that I own about 20 versions of Rachmaninov's All-night Vigil, and 14 of Brahms' German Requiem. And to address the number of versions I have of the works you mentioned, I have about six or seven of both of Brahms' Piano Concerti.

For me, it's not a question of not wanting to hear other works by lesser-known (or even, well-known) composers, but one of balancing depth and breadth in my collection. How else can one make 'impartial' recommendations of recordings if one has only a single copy of any given work? ???

It is impossible to give impartial recommendations, even if you have multiple recordings of the same piece.
But then, I do not believe in objectivity.....
Recommendations can only be given out of personal experience, so it is always colored by your own subjectivity.
But that's okay..
Title: Re: How do get hold of many versions?
Post by: Coopmv on April 08, 2009, 03:29:09 PM
You seem to have the future mapped out.  I don't know how many versions I'll be acquiring in the future; I just get the ones I'm interested in and let the inventory expand in a natural manner.

I tend to collect 10-20 versions of each of the masterpieces depending on whether there are that number of recordings out there that are worth collecting for that work, which include many of JS Bach works (both instrumental and vocal), Beethoven Symphonies and Piano Sonatas, Corelli 12 Concerti Grossi, Op. 6, Handel Messiah and Concerto Grossi Op. 6, Brahms Requiem, Tchaikovsky 5th and 6th, Vivaldi Four Seasons, etc.  I certainly do not believe there is any point for me to collect every version that is out there for a given work.