Hyperion Label

Started by Solitary Wanderer, May 25, 2007, 12:37:03 PM

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Madiel

#120
Quote from: Todd on March 04, 2023, 11:40:21 AMThe best things in life are free.

Well music isn't.

Quote from: Tori AmosI remember a couple of years ago when one of the musicians said to me, "I think music should be free." And I was just not in the mood to deal with yet another genius, but I did, and I said, "Well, you have made the question bout where to send your check easy for me to answer." "Um," said the musician, "what do you mean?" I answered, "We weren't sure whether to send your check to your address or to your girlfriend's address, but now you've answered my question for me." "I'm not quite following you, Tor," he said. "Well, obviously since you believe that music should be free, then we won't need to send you your check."

The musician looked at me incredulously, and with shock in his voice said, "But I've just played my heart out." I looked at him very calmly and said, "So you think you should get paid but music should be free?" "Well, yeah," he said. "And so who do you think is going to pay you if music is free?" I asked. And therein lies the problem -- everybody wants free stuff but nobody wants to work for free. The truth is, all the people who have ever told me that music should be free still believe that they should be paid for their job, whatever that job may be. They are completely insulted when I suggest that they work for free as well. People usually get quite defensive at this point and say, "If I don't get paid for a day's work, then basically I'm being cheated." And I look at them and say, "That is basically right."

This musician sheepishly looked at me and said, "I guess I sound pretty hypocritical... but Tor, you're kidding, right?" And I said, "You mean about you not getting paid? Of course I'm going to pay you, because I value what you do. But do you want to know what scares me, and I mean really scares me?" And he looked at me completely baffled and said, "No, what really scares you?" "The fact," I said, "that you weren't kidding." [Tori Amos: Piece by Piece]
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Madiel

Quote from: DavidW on March 04, 2023, 08:37:19 AMI found this video really helpful, watched it awhile ago.  David Bruce is a classical composer and we see an insider look into these questions we are currently exploring on this thread.



Thanks for sharing this. It was really well presented and interesting.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

vandermolen

#122
Excuse my ignorance but what is the difference between 'streaming' and 'download'?

PS I shall miss Hyperion who are/were a really fine, beautifully presented label. In the meantime I'll console myself awaiting for the (I hope) imminent arrival of the last of Brabbins's Vaughan Williams symphony cycle recordings (symphonies 7 'Antartica' and 9).
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Madiel

#123
Quote from: vandermolen on March 04, 2023, 11:40:36 PMExcuse my ignorance but what is the difference between 'streaming' and 'download'?

A download is a file in your possession. A stream is sent to you as you listen. Like a broadcast, only it isn't necessarily broad, often it's just going to you personally when you've chosen it.

You can buy downloads just as you would buy physical media. Streaming services are generally where you pay a monthly fee for access.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Roasted Swan

#124
As someone who has spent their entire life as a performing/professional musician I actually find the Tori Amos story slightly hard to believe.  In the sense that I do not recognise the position of the band colleague ("Music should be free") as coming from a player.  For sure we want EVERYONE to be able to experience the music we perform (and hopefully love) but not for "free".  As an aside - the still-common comment that always gets my goat is; "you're so lucky to do something you love...."  As though taking pleasure in one's work is worth 50% of the potential income.....

There has been a definite spin-off from the covid/lockdown experience that I have not heard many people discuss.  In the UK (and I assume everywhere else too) there was a massive movement towards major artistic institutions/performers making content available free online for home audiences to view.  This was everyone from The National Theatre, Royal Opera House right down to world-class performers streaming home concerts.  At the time everyone said how wonderful it was and how much it was appreciated - I tuned into these as much as anyone.

But post-covid, returning to a monetised version of the same offerings has been much harder.  I have encountered significantly greater resistance to paying 'proper' fees post covid than before and that is not just a case of economic downturn.  For sure, a certain percentage of the public engaged with whatever area of music will always value the live experience and want to pay a decent price for it but for those for whom music is no more than a background soundtrack to their lives the rationale is 100% why pay for something where I can/did get the same "just as good" for free.

The simple truth is that for any composer/performer you will NEVER receive a fee that is commensurate with the amount of time it has taken to produce the composition or the recording of that composition.  Forget just the years of personal practice that gets you to the point you are good enough to present something professionally - this one work will take tens of hours of personal and collective practice to produce the "perfect" performance expected of you today.  Divide a decent buy-out fee by those number of hours and I bet you are below the living wage hourly rate!  David Bruce did exceptionally well to get a "major label" recording and as he said having a big name on board like YoYo Ma makes all the difference.  But that experience will be the exception for the vast majority of professional composer/performers.  Also, I find it slightly sad that in the video he jokes that he was surprised to receive a royalty cheque for thousands not tens/hundreds.  But here we have a composer in a global market at the top of his game and he's chuffed to receive thousands - go down to the City of London and find a relative junior in some corporate bank getting hundreds of thousands..... (yeah yeah I know - market forces blah blah blah)

In my field of Classical Music nearly ALL the freelance colleagues I know rely on teaching to support the playing they do.  You can get a reasonable hourly rate for teaching and of course, once you've built up a decent register of pupils its reliable money on a regular basis.  There might be a TINY group of players working in the session field who don't need that to fall back on but it is tiny.

Over 20 years ago I had an experience/brief insight in the sheet music publishing world.  There was a famous old publisher - Bosworth & Co.  They had a retail office and warehouse (in a cellar) just off lower Regent Street in central London.  It had been there for over 100 years and survived the Blitz.  Historically they were famous for having published UK editions of Strauss Waltzes, Albert Ketelbey and Sevcik violin method (if you've played the violin you've done Sevcik!!).  As someone interested in light music it was like entering an earlier age.  You could buy pristine sets of music relatively cheaply.  No real suprise (or argument) clearly this was not sustainable so Bosworth was sold to UMP (United Music Publishers).  UMP is the sheet music equivalent of Universal Music for CD etc. 95% at least of the Bosworth catalogue was literally junked - I mean LITERALLY thrown into skips with them cherry-picking the tiny part of the catalogue they felt could still be monetised.  Since there was no economic benefit in UMP keeping an archive or record of the music that was not considered commercially viable almost overnight a whole raft of music was lost.  My guess is that this is the fate of Hyperion and similar labels that have been bought out.  Of course it must be a business and not a charity but the concern must be that material is lost simply because it is deemed not financially viable to maintain.

There is a little known musical called "Song of Singapore".  It contains one of my favourite songs in any show;  "Never Pay Musicians What They're Worth".  Here's a jazz version!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXojGzTE6QQ

EDIT:  (just to make a long post longer....)  back in the day when I was working regularly on Shows on tour in the UK and in the West End you still had to be a member of the Musician's Union.  Then of course good ol' Maggie T came along and said that "Unions were bad".  The advantage for self-employed Musos of a Union was that it removed the personal/individual need to negotiate with fixers/producers.  Of course you could negotiate higher rates if you were a top top player (not me!) but there were always fixed rates and T&C's.  So there was never a question about what would be paid if a show went into overtime (like Les Mis regularly did) or how much you'd get for a TV slot or show recording or travel or per diems etc.  These days you are likely to be offered lower rates and if you don't want it there WILL be someone else willing to do that show for that fee.  There are various Facebook groups for musicians where people offer work.  I am always shocked by how low the fees offered are but how many people are willing to take it on - my sense is that generally rates are lower than I was getting per show 20 years ago(!!).  I'm out of the West End loop these days so I've no idea about what a show call on Phantom for example is any more (of course the band is literally half the size it was when I did dep on that).  That simply could not have occured back when the MU controlled agreements with theatres/producers.

vandermolen

Quote from: Madiel on March 04, 2023, 11:56:53 PMA download is a file in your possession. A stream is sent to you as you listen. Like a broadcast, only it isn't necessarily broad, often it's just going to you personally when you've chosen it.

You can buy downloads just as you would buy physical media. Streaming services are generally where you pay a monthly fee for access.
Many thanks  :)
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Madiel

Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 05, 2023, 12:19:44 AMAs someone who has spent their entire life as a performing/professional musician I actually find the Tori Amos story slightly hard to believe.  In the sense that I do not recognise the position of the band colleague ("Music should be free") as coming from a player.  For sure we want EVERYONE to be able to experience the music we perform (and hopefully love) but not for "free".

I always took that this was a somewhat thoughtless remark he made in a larger conversation where he was very much thinking about the music that he listened to, not the music that he performed.

Quote95% at least of the Bosworth catalogue was literally junked - I mean LITERALLY thrown into skips with them cherry-picking the tiny part of the catalogue they felt could still be monetised.  Since there was no economic benefit in UMP keeping an archive or record of the music that was not considered commercially viable almost overnight a whole raft of music was lost.  My guess is that this is the fate of Hyperion and similar labels that have been bought out.  Of course it must be a business and not a charity but the concern must be that material is lost simply because it is deemed not financially viable to maintain.

This might well happen to physical CDs and we'll never see another physical Hyperion product. But I do wonder, though, whether it would make any sense to pull down the downloads - not necessarily the Hyperion website, but their stuff is available to buy on iTunes for example. How much does it cost to keep things like that uploaded? I wouldn't have thought it was much.

I'm not entirely certain how much of Hyperion's catalogue is already for sale that way. While relevant companies will happily tell us how much is available online, they've often been shockingly bad at going back to capture things that were released prior to when the fancy online system went live. But, for example, a Hyperion Medtner album where the physical discs are long deleted and I paid excessively for about the only copy I could find on the globe... I could have had it easily enough on iTunes.

These days it's a lot harder for things to become completely lost, thanks to the internet. Heck, there's always filesharing. But even with all that it can be a challenge for relatively niche things.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Roasted Swan

Quote from: Madiel on March 05, 2023, 01:21:14 AMI always took that this was a somewhat thoughtless remark he made in a larger conversation where he was very much thinking about the music that he listened to, not the music that he performed.

This might well happen to physical CDs and we'll never see another physical Hyperion product. But I do wonder, though, whether it would make any sense to pull down the downloads - not necessarily the Hyperion website, but their stuff is available to buy on iTunes for example. How much does it cost to keep things like that uploaded? I wouldn't have thought it was much.

I'm not entirely certain how much of Hyperion's catalogue is already for sale that way. While relevant companies will happily tell us how much is available online, they've often been shockingly bad at going back to capture things that were released prior to when the fancy online system went live. But, for example, a Hyperion Medtner album where the physical discs are long deleted and I paid excessively for about the only copy I could find on the globe... I could have had it easily enough on iTunes.

These days it's a lot harder for things to become completely lost, thanks to the internet. Heck, there's always filesharing. But even with all that it can be a challenge for relatively niche things.

To the bolded - yes absolutely.  Not sure if you follow the British music thread - but Albion there is a gold-mine of sharing off-air recordings of rare music.  Now of course there is a poacher/gamekeeper thing there that such sharing does not give the composer/artists a royalty in recognition of their work but the truth is without such sharing much would literally be lost.  One of my long-term goals is to create an online archive where people can freely access the music I am particularly passionate about whether in recorded or sheet form.  A kind of personalised IMSLP!

Madiel

Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 05, 2023, 01:27:58 AMNow of course there is a poacher/gamekeeper thing there that such sharing does not give the composer/artists a royalty in recognition of their work but the truth is without such sharing much would literally be lost.

I am comfortable with such sharing when there doesn't seem to be an alternative. If something cannot be purchased anymore. Which does happen. And could happen to Hyperion albums (I guess second-hand copies don't generate royalties either).

What disturbs me is the extent to which many people are comfortable with it because it saves their wallet. I know it's easy for me to say as a relatively wealthy person, but I've never thought it great to take things for free either because you can't afford them or just want to spend your money on other things. Because it's a statement about value. I buy music in part because it's an expression of which music I find valuable.

Streaming services have opened up a whole avenue for me of trying out a lot of music that I might not otherwise get to sample (for pop music, many hours were spent sampling albums in record stores when I was younger, for classical there was a bit of that and much agonising with the Penguin Guide), but I still do decide to buy the albums I want to listen to repeatedly. I resist listening to the same music over and over on streaming even though that would be perfectly legal and indeed would create some revenue, but I'm even more wary of getting into the habit of just accepting files of music. I've done it in limited circumstances. And then if I like it, I seek to rectify the situation.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

aukhawk

Quote from: Madiel on March 03, 2023, 05:14:02 PMThere is a serious underlying issue here about how cheap people want their music to be and yet still expect creators to be able to afford to create.

Fortunately musicians are addicted to making music.  And there are other people with microphones.  And then there are lawyers.

Roasted Swan

Quote from: aukhawk on March 05, 2023, 03:44:24 AMFortunately musicians are addicted to making music.  And there are other people with microphones.  And then there are lawyers.

So you believe exploiting people and their addictions is a good thing....?

Madiel

Quote from: aukhawk on March 05, 2023, 03:44:24 AMFortunately musicians are addicted to making music.  And there are other people with microphones.  And then there are lawyers.

Right, so what do you get paid for doing as your job, and are you sufficiently "addicted" that we can get you to do it without being paid?

Professional musicians are just that: professional. It's a job. Doing it as a job is different to doing it for sheer passion, and you seem to be living in that romantic fantasyland where it's all just about art... and possibly you can freeload off that romance.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Todd

Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 05, 2023, 12:19:44 AMThe simple truth is that for any composer/performer you will NEVER receive a fee that is commensurate with the amount of time it has taken to produce the composition or the recording of that composition.

What about Sir James Paul McCartney CH MBE?

The business model for recorded music started changing with the arrival of large-scale illegal file sharing in the 90s.  Record companies moved in and streaming now dominates.  There's no going back.  Nor should there be. Live classical music has to survive on public funding, generous patrons, subscription ticket sales, and creative programming that draws bigger crowds.  Live popular music and jazz have it worse.  No one should start performing music with hopes of fat paychecks.  That's as rare as becoming the next Yo-Yo Ma or Taylor Swift.

Paid streaming and free streaming (eg, YouTube) are the here and now.  Maybe the music business reverts to the halcyon days (I'm led to believe) of monocultural oligopoly for A&R, production, and distribution, but that seems unlikely, at least to the extent that it existed up through the early 90s.  I much prefer perusing Amazon and YouTube, finding new talent, streaming, and occasionally buying content from unknown artists, from time to time directly from the artist.  If a record company or two or ten disappears, that's OK.  New ones will and do appear.  New music will be created and made available.  Look at the French.  They do microlabels better than anyone. 

I have no emotional attachment to any company, any business model, any anything when it comes to the creation and sale of luxury products.  Worst case, I guess, would require seeking out more live, in-person performances and learning to play multiple instruments.  Or going back through my collection.  I shan't have to resort to such unpleasantries.  I will be a good citizen and consume, consume, consume.


Quote from: aukhawk on March 05, 2023, 03:44:24 AMFortunately musicians are addicted to making music.

Yep, though I would say that they feel compelled to create content, to use current parlance.  (The same goes for other creatives.)  Music has been around for millennia and will be around for millennia to come. 

I should like to see a business plan that simultaneously addresses the bad behavior of modern consumers and elevates classical music to widespread cultural relevance.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

DavidW

Quote from: DavidW on February 27, 2023, 07:05:40 AMIs the set finally complete?  It seems like they were still recording them.  The cds are mostly oop, including even recent releases so I'm about to bite the bullet and start buying digital downloads.

I just discovered that I bought one of the Simpson SQ cds from BRO and forgot!  I pulled it out ready for a listen when I have the time.

Todd

Quote from: DavidW on March 06, 2023, 06:15:07 AMI just discovered that I bought one of the Simpson SQ cds from BRO and forgot!

You have arrived at the point where you have forgotten you own recordings.  There is but one cure for this: buy more recordings.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Spotted Horses

Quote from: DavidW on March 06, 2023, 06:15:07 AMI just discovered that I bought one of the Simpson SQ cds from BRO and forgot!  I pulled it out ready for a listen when I have the time.

I managed to collect all of them (I think) from BRO years ago when they were very cheap. As I recall I only listened to one disc (containing a string quintet, I seem to recall) but it didn't resonate with me at the time. But I am a different listener now, I should revisit, especially I recently enjoyed listing to some of Simpson's symphonic works (also on Hyperion).
There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind. - Duke Ellington

DavidW

Quote from: Todd on March 06, 2023, 06:41:09 AMYou have arrived at the point where you have forgotten you own recordings.  There is but one cure for this: buy more recordings.

That would usually be a sign that my collection is too large, but for me it is because I spend most of my time streaming!

timwtheov

#137
Looks like Hyperion releases (or at least some of them) are streaming on Qobuz and Tidal, possibly also Idagio, et al. From their website:

"Hyperion albums are now available for streaming ... Having resisted the medium for many years, we have decided the time is finally right, giving our esteemed artists the increased visibility they so deserve, and allowing the riches of our catalogue to be discovered by a new generation. Some two hundred albums—presenting a broad overview of the catalogue and including many of our finest treasures—are available now, and more will be added over the coming months. A list of albums currently available to stream can be found » Here. With the enthusiastic support of our new colleagues at Universal, we are also taking the opportunity to add booklets and embedded sung texts to our digital offerings wherever possible. For the benefit of our valued and established customers who may prefer more traditional methods, these same 200 albums are available at the special price of £8 per CD (or download equivalent) until the end of August—see the "Current Offers" pages above: an opportunity to plug any holes in your collection at a good price."

foxandpeng

Quote from: timwtheov on July 28, 2023, 05:14:33 AMLooks like Hyperion releases (or at least some of them) are streaming on Qobuz and Tidal now, FYI.

And on Spotify. Joy unbounding.
"A quiet secluded life in the country, with the possibility of being useful to people ... then work which one hopes may be of some use; then rest, nature, books, music, love for one's neighbour — such is my idea of happiness"

Tolstoy

AnotherSpin

Quote from: timwtheov on July 28, 2023, 05:14:33 AMLooks like Hyperion releases (or at least some of them) are streaming on Qobuz and Tidal, possibly also Idagio, et al. From their website:

"Hyperion albums are now available for streaming ... Having resisted the medium for many years, we have decided the time is finally right, giving our esteemed artists the increased visibility they so deserve, and allowing the riches of our catalogue to be discovered by a new generation. Some two hundred albums—presenting a broad overview of the catalogue and including many of our finest treasures—are available now, and more will be added over the coming months. A list of albums currently available to stream can be found » Here. With the enthusiastic support of our new colleagues at Universal, we are also taking the opportunity to add booklets and embedded sung texts to our digital offerings wherever possible. For the benefit of our valued and established customers who may prefer more traditional methods, these same 200 albums are available at the special price of £8 per CD (or download equivalent) until the end of August—see the "Current Offers" pages above: an opportunity to plug any holes in your collection at a good price."

Big news! Really missed the Hyperion recordings on Qobuz.