GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Composer Discussion => Topic started by: Brewski on March 12, 2008, 10:57:40 AM

Title: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Brewski on March 12, 2008, 10:57:40 AM
Today on a blog called david's waste of bandwidth (http://homepage.mac.com/dtoub/blog/index.html), there's a link to FeldmanSays (http://www.apple.com/downloads/dashboard/music/feldmansays.html), a widget for Mac dashboards that gives you a different Feldman saying every time you start your computer.

Seemed like an excellent reason to start a Morton Feldman thread.  (I can't believe we didn't have one!)

--Bruce
Title: Feldman's Flapdoodle?
Post by: karlhenning on March 12, 2008, 10:59:27 AM
 ;D

High time there was a Feldman thread, Bruce.

And a Feldman widget?  Can it get any better than this?
Title: Re: Feldman's Flapdoodle?
Post by: Brewski on March 12, 2008, 11:03:05 AM
;D

High time there was a Feldman thread, Bruce.

And a Feldman widget?  Can it get any better than this?

Clever, isn't it!  (Of course, little good it does me, being Mac-less.)

--Bruce
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Ephemerid on March 12, 2008, 11:05:28 AM
I love uncle Morty!  8)

Palais di Mari and his Piano & String Quartet are my personal favourites-- sort of like slow motion minimalism (it used to creep out my ex-wife LOL).

Rothko Chapel, For Bunita Marcus, Violin & String Quartet and his second (six hour long!!!  :o ) string quartet are wonderful pieces too-- sort of like acoustic ambient music...  

I love how he is able to make the weirdest dissonances sound so delicate & beautiful...

Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Brewski on March 12, 2008, 11:20:33 AM
Hard to think of favorites, but the two pieces I've heard most often in the last few years are Why Patterns? and Triadic Memories.  One I'd like to hear again is Coptic Light.  I was at the world premiere when the NY Phil did it in the mid-1980s, long before I became a Feldman fan.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: gomro on April 01, 2008, 04:15:56 PM
Today on a blog called david's waste of bandwidth (http://homepage.mac.com/dtoub/blog/index.html), there's a link to FeldmanSays (http://www.apple.com/downloads/dashboard/music/feldmansays.html), a widget for Mac dashboards that gives you a different Feldman saying every time you start your computer.

Seemed like an excellent reason to start a Morton Feldman thread.  (I can't believe we didn't have one!)

--Bruce

Feldman wrote some amazing music. When I first heard Piano and String Quartet, I got up at 5 am every day for about a week and a half to be able to play it and enjoy it at the right volume before external noises or the duties of the day could take their toll on that beautiful stretch of sound.  Not many pieces have affected me to that degree.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: The Emperor on April 05, 2008, 01:59:13 AM
I have to get more stuff from him for sure, i only have triadic memories and i love the mood of it, not something i listen to everyday but way too cool to ignore.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Symphonien on April 05, 2008, 02:39:14 AM
Taking notice of this Feldman thread, I had my first listening experience with Feldman last night through Coptic Light (Tilson Thomas).

Amazing orchestral colours and harmonies throughout, and I liked the overall rhythm (not really rhythm, kind of hard to explain really...) which reminded me of breathing in and out very slowly, or waves coming in and out of shore - more or less the same every time, with only subtle variations. It's really quite strange and certainly like nothing I have ever heard before... I would probably describe it as 'atonal minimalism'. One of the things I did while listening was try to guess what would happen next, although this proved surprisingly difficult! Everything happens so gradually, that it is very hard to pinpoint exactly where one instrument stops playing and another starts. You are aware of it, but it is as though the music draws you in some other way and forces you not to concentrate on this. It really does seem to exist outside of time, and indeed seems to have no beginning or end. I was hardly aware of time passing while listening, and when it was over I realised that I had stayed so still that one of my arms was asleep!

So I look forward to listening to more Feldman in the future, although you do have to be in a certain mood for it. Sort of like Takemitsu; but to the absolute extreme. The musical material is so thin, almost pure tone colour, that it requires a certain mindset to enjoy. Probably something that works best when listened to in moderation.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Catison on April 05, 2008, 09:53:57 AM
I cant stomach much of what I have heard, nothing is really happening in his music, it's rather boring, the aural equivalent of watching paint dry zzzzz...not much rhythmic momentum and too much repetition. Just nothing really that I find moving or compelling whatsoever. Rothko Chapel is only thing of his that I can take & would suggest if someone asked, but myself could easily live without.

Who would have known, Mr. James doesn't like Feldman.  I hesitate to say this very often, but in this case, you simply don't get it.  His music isn't for you, but that is OK.  You don't have to like it.  Feldman was still a genius.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: lukeottevanger on April 05, 2008, 10:12:34 AM
Oh, I don't know, James seems to have observed that a fundamental principle of Feldman's music is repetition. He's got that far - and well done to him for noticing  ::) ::) Repetition isn't to James's tastes, it seems (though this is strange, as it is very much a stylistic principle of his own posts).

Just for James's sake - everything is happening in this music. Nothing ever repeats exactly. But the changes happen in tiny increments, slowly sifting and settling. As has been observed already, the music pulses slowly in and out, like breathing or like the movement of waves, each pulse different form the last. It takes a different kind of listening to appreciate it to the kind of listening one applies to Bach, and it's a kind of listening you obviously struggle with. That's fine, of course, but as a principle I always find it best not to blame the music for my own struggles with it.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: lukeottevanger on April 05, 2008, 12:42:08 PM
but never pays off (in my experience)

That says it all really - the final, universal, italicised Truth-According-To-James...and then, demurely parenthesised, the I-suppose-I-have-to 'IMO' qualification. It always looks a little ludicrous, this stance. You know full well that this music has the power to 'pay off', James, because you are talking to people for whom it has paid off and continues to do so. Perhaps the opinions and reactions of others figure very small in your assessment of composers, and of course, our own tastes are naturally the most important to us, but your repeated exalting of your own opinions as being implicitly more valuable, conclusive and 'accurate' than anyone else's just conspires to make you look severely self-centred. Not just on this thread, of course...
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Kullervo on April 06, 2008, 07:25:19 AM
That says it all really - the final, universal, italicised Truth-According-To-James...and then, demurely parenthesised, the I-suppose-I-have-to 'IMO' qualification. It always looks a little ludicrous, this stance. You know full well that this music has the power to 'pay off', James, because you are talking to people for whom it has paid off and continues to do so. Perhaps the opinions and reactions of others figure very small in your assessment of composers, and of course, our own tastes are naturally the most important to us, but your repeated exalting of your own opinions as being implicitly more valuable, conclusive and 'accurate' than anyone else's just conspires to make you look severely self-centred. Not just on this thread, of course...

A hit, a very palpable hit. :D
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: UB on April 11, 2008, 03:59:17 AM
Feldman, as most composers, wrote in a number of styles if you explore his music you should find something that you enjoy.

My favorites include Coptic Light, Out of Last Pieces, all of the Durations, Why Patterns, Palais di Mari, etc. I must confess that I have never come to enjoy Neither or The Turfan Fragments but I have friends that love them. I also find that anything much over 90 minutes has become less interesting to me as I grow older - but again that is about me and not the music. 

The best Feldman site I have found is www.cnvill.net/mfhome.htm I suggest you read some of the articles and then try some of the works that are available on demand. While you are at the 'Art of the States' site, you might try some of the other composers works.

Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: karlhenning on April 11, 2008, 04:13:46 AM
Bill! Izzat you?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vanessa_zang on April 11, 2008, 04:26:22 AM
Feldman's music can feel so different under different situations. I remember Paul playing Rothko Chapel and For Piano and String Quartet for me and loved it. I thought the music is so beautifully peaceful. But a month ago, when Paul was out of town, I wanted some peaceful music, so i put on some Feldman. When it is dark and quiet and you are alone, the music sounded so scary (haunting?)! I was almost sweating! I took the CD out immediately and put on some Faure.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: karlhenning on April 11, 2008, 04:33:05 AM
My personal irony viz. Feldman is that I went to Buffalo, as it turned out not long after his demise, and I knew nothing of him.  Many of the people I met while I was at Buffalo, quite understandably especially for that time, spoke very highly and appreciatively of Feldman.  But (to mention but two aspects of the matter) it was a time when my ears were better attuned to other Muses, and when we played a Feldman piece in a chamber ensemble, the experience bored me out of my mind.  No doubt, if I had written anything then of my impressions/evaluation of Feldman, it would make James's post seem like chaste understatement in comparison.

More than a decade later, and intrigued by the calm earnest of a number of people whose musical opinions I respect well, I gave Feldman a fresh try.  And while I must say that I listen to his work in some way other than that in which I listen to most music, probably . . . I now enjoy it a great deal, and I am grateful for the ways in which it has encouraged me to think about time in different ways, on a broader scale.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: UB on April 14, 2008, 04:40:45 AM
Hi Karl -

Who else would post as UB?  I figure I have been using it on music boards for 9 years now.

What pieces of Feldman have you heard recently? Do you know the solo piano piece Palais de Mari?

Is the NYT folks still posting? I can not seem to find their forums - they seem to be hiding them.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: karlhenning on April 14, 2008, 04:52:03 AM
What pieces of Feldman have you heard recently?

For Stefan Wolpe, exquisite!

Quote
Do you know the solo piano piece Palais de Mari?

I don't . . . .
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: uffeviking on April 15, 2008, 09:23:45 AM
I have the Palais de Marie played by Aki Takahashi on a disc with six more solo piano pieces, but must admit it's been some time since I listened to it. Whenever I feel like Feldman, I end up listening to my favourite: Rothko Chapel!  ::)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Catison on April 15, 2008, 05:00:30 PM
Whenever I feel like Feldman, I end up listening to my favourite: Rothko Chapel!  ::)

No doubt this is Feldman's most accessible piece.  Other accessible pieces are Coptic Light and For Samuel Beckett.  It might help if you skip to Why Patterns? every so often if you want to branch out a little bit.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: uffeviking on April 15, 2008, 05:12:15 PM
It might help if you skip to Why Patterns? every so often if you want to branch out a little bit.

Thank you so much for the guidance and I'll remember it next time I order CDs. For now though, I have enough to chew on with my five CDs of Feldman music, Why Patterns not among them - yet!  :)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Catison on April 15, 2008, 05:15:16 PM
Thank you so much for the guidance and I'll remember it next time I order CDs. For now though, I have enough to chew on with my five CDs of Feldman music, Why Patterns not among them - yet!  :)

Well, I assumed you had the recording in which Rothko Chapel is coupled with Why Patterns?.  My mistake.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: uffeviking on April 15, 2008, 05:28:11 PM
No, sorry. The Rothko Chapel I have is coupled with Piano and Orchestra, Durations II and the Rothko is by Klangform Wien.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: karlhenning on April 16, 2008, 02:19:53 AM
. . . my five CDs of Feldman music, Why Patterns not among them - yet!  :)

Why not Why Patterns? . . ?  ;)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: uffeviking on April 16, 2008, 05:11:43 AM
Because neither you, Karl, nor Catison, has recommended it to me! You gotta tell me about those things, that's why I am hanging around a classical music forum!  ;D
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: not edward on April 16, 2008, 07:00:57 AM
Anyone heard the new ECM recording of the complete The Viola in my Life series? I only know the first two pieces in the series from the fine ensemble recherché recording on Montaigne (my introduction to this composer and a singularly fine one too).
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Brewski on April 16, 2008, 09:25:46 AM
Anyone heard the new ECM recording of the complete The Viola in my Life series? I only know the first two pieces in the series from the fine ensemble recherché recording on Montaigne (my introduction to this composer and a singularly fine one too).

Haven't heard it, but glad to know about it!  And I'd be interested in comments from others, as well.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: karlhenning on April 16, 2008, 09:31:30 AM
You will all be in the know on the reference in my forthcoming score, The Viola in My Hibachi  8)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: karlhenning on June 02, 2008, 08:52:53 AM
Depends on what you mean by "wrong."

However, there is little enough interest in Feldman on this board, generally, that having multiple threads is like no conversation at all, but this individual inhabiting one thread, that individual inhabiting another.

And, as if to illustrate the point, the "furation" thread is sinking like a stone already, after a Feldmanian 'blip' of interest . . . .
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: not edward on June 02, 2008, 10:59:22 AM
I think one problem when talking about Feldman is that it's often tough to put my finger on why I like his music far more than other superficially similar composers.

Yes, one can say "more harmonically, rhythmically and colouristically interesting" and "prone to more subtle surprises and changes than similar composers" but that doesn't really say anything deep about his work.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: karlhenning on June 02, 2008, 11:35:40 AM
With Feldman, yet more than others, it's hard to pin down why it works, where the same components don't necessarily, in the hands of another.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Brewski on June 02, 2008, 11:39:19 AM
With Feldman, yet more than others, it's hard to pin down why it works, where the same components don't necessarily, in the hands of another.

I'll agree with that--one of the mysteries of his writing.  What should be totally banal, somehow transcends that. 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Catison on February 20, 2009, 08:18:34 AM
You can download an mp3 of the complete For Bunita Marcus at Amazon.com for just $0.89!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00162HWU2/ref=dm_ty_adp?ie=UTF8&parent=B00162I9UO

I'm listening now.  It's beautiful!!!
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Brewski on February 20, 2009, 08:25:12 AM
Thanks, Brett!  Man, can't do much better than 89 cents...

--Bruce
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Guido on February 20, 2009, 03:05:45 PM
I'll agree with that--one of the mysteries of his writing.  What should be totally banal, somehow transcends that. 

--Bruce

Not a mystery. It's his genius! There's your answer. No need for any furthur questions. That perfectly answers it. Yup. Definitely.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Maciek on February 20, 2009, 03:30:21 PM
To be frank, though, I'm not exactly sure who those others who use the same components are... (we're probably thinking about different things, though)

The only composer I can think of who is remotely similar to Feldman is Tomasz Sikorski and in his case it all works as well (at least on me) - but, I repeat, it's only a remote similarity (in fact, it might only be that they both wrote quiet music ;D; Sikorski's pieces are not nearly as drawn out and their pace might be briskier).

BTW, I could merge the "furation thread" into this one, just to tidy things up. Any objections?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Brewski on February 20, 2009, 03:38:48 PM
BTW, I could merge the "furation thread" into this one, just to tidy things up. Any objections?

Hey, run wild!  ;D  And thanks for the mention of Sikorski--another composer new to me. 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: istanbul on May 14, 2009, 12:54:52 AM
my favorites
...
string quartet I (1979)
crippled symetry (1983)
piano and string quartet (1985)
coptic light (1985)
vioiln and string quartet (1985)
palais de mari (1986)
....

i didn't find anywhere feldman's last work:
pianoi, violini, viola, cello (1987)

Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: karlhenning on May 30, 2009, 04:12:00 AM
Mmm . . . reminds me to cue Coptic Light back up . . . .
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on June 01, 2009, 11:39:14 PM
Piano and String Quartet is about the creepiest perfect heroin music ever. Basquiat. I find so much "of course" perfection into its arpeggio-chord structure. Of course you're allowed to nod off!!! :D

CPO's 4 ctos. were the bargain of the ages when it came out (remember that disc of Boulez, Lachenmann, and Scelsi?). The flute heralds Feldman's late style, the piano is amazingly flat, and the cello is very dramatic. For me, this is the perfect Feldman length.

Already I'm getting the feeling I've written this all on another thread.

But for Feldman's music to sound the way it does when every picture of him contains a cigarette I find spiritually creepy, like he is channelling death.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Guido on June 01, 2009, 11:52:16 PM
Piano and String Quartet is about the creepiest perfect heroin music ever. Basquiat. I find so much "of course" perfection into its arpeggio-chord structure. Of course you're allowed to nod off!!! :D

CPO's 4 ctos. were the bargain of the ages when it came out (remember that disc of Boulez, Lachenmann, and Scelsi?). The flute heralds Feldman's late style, the piano is amazingly flat, and the cello is very dramatic. For me, this is the perfect Feldman length.

Already I'm getting the feeling I've written this all on another thread.

But for Feldman's music to sound the way it does when every picture of him contains a cigarette I find spiritually creepy, like he is channelling death.


Feldman's Cello and Orchestra is a wonderful score isn't it. The nightmarish mists that it conjures beneath the arching cello line is just magical - somehow the whole thing seems like a single song or cry - passionate but also numb.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on June 02, 2009, 11:32:22 AM
Yea, the Cello Cto. is a bit different for Feldman. Exactly like you said.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Catison on June 02, 2009, 11:47:00 AM
Feldman's Cello and Orchestra is a wonderful score isn't it. The nightmarish mists that it conjures beneath the arching cello line is just magical - somehow the whole thing seems like a single song or cry - passionate but also numb.

In a way, Feldman's whole oeuvre is a single cry.  It seems there was some sort of well spring of music in Feldman's head, and he would dip the cello, the viola, and the piano and out would pop some composition, perfectly suited for its orchestration.  Feldman had an unnatural gift for speaking with a true voice.  It is amazing how simple Feldman's music is, but it would be impossible to copy.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: karlhenning on June 03, 2009, 10:51:05 AM
Quote
Mmm . . . reminds me to cue Coptic Light back up . . . .

Listened last night.  Now, this is a piece I'll listen to every evening for two weeks, I just know it.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Daverz on June 03, 2009, 03:05:14 PM
Listened last night.  Now, this is a piece I'll listen to every evening for two weeks, I just know it.

I have the Tilson Thomas and Michael Morgan recordings.  The one that Fanfare says is the best is Gielen, which coupled with, of all things, the Bruckner 8th.  Anyone see the connection?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Brewski on June 08, 2009, 07:27:46 AM
I have the Tilson Thomas and Michael Morgan recordings.  The one that Fanfare says is the best is Gielen, which coupled with, of all things, the Bruckner 8th.  Anyone see the connection?

Lately I do see Bruckner as linked to minimalism (not the only way I see him, of course), so this pairing might be more appropriate than we think!

On Friday, June 19, Either/Or is doing Feldman's Why Patterns? at Issue Project Room (http://issueprojectroom.org/2009/05/08/eitheror-plays-morton-feldmans-why-patterns/) in Brooklyn, along with pianist David Budin in Stockhausen's Klavierstücke IX.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: karlhenning on June 08, 2009, 07:30:44 AM
On Friday, June 19, Either/Or is doing Feldman's Why Patterns? at Issue Project Room (http://issueprojectroom.org/2009/05/08/eitheror-plays-morton-feldmans-why-patterns/) in Brooklyn, along with pianist David Budin in Stockhausen's Klavierstücke IX.

You going, Bruce? That is, for whatever passel of reasons, one of my consistent Feldman favorites.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Brewski on June 08, 2009, 08:07:47 AM
You going, Bruce? That is, for whatever passel of reasons, one of my consistent Feldman favorites.

Yes, at the moment I'm planning to (even though the cool venue is a bit of a hike), since I love the group and heard them do the piece back in 2005.  They will do a great job with it, I'm sure.  And I like the piece, too.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on June 08, 2009, 06:12:39 PM
No one's mentioned SQ 2 yet.

I just wish the DVD would have come out before I swore off Feldman (due to having to deal with those HatArt/HatHut cds).
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Catison on June 12, 2009, 05:35:12 AM
It is so weird, Naxos music library has the Coptic Light with Gielen, but it will simply not play.  I was really excited about it too.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2009, 07:18:26 AM
It is so weird, Naxos music library has the Coptic Light with Gielen, but it will simply not play.  I was really excited about it too.

Argh! Hope they fix that, Brett!
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: UB on November 18, 2009, 07:07:46 AM
In wandering around looking at what was being played on the web I came across this recent broadcast of Feldman's Violin and String Quartet (http://www.concertzender.nl/programmagids.php?date=2009-11-17&month=0&detail=38927)

If you have a couple of hours you can hear one of Feldman's late works. I have trouble with any work of Feldman that goes beyond 90 minutes.  In this case the first 90 minutes is worth hearing while the last 30 minutes is among my favorite Feldman music.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Catison on November 18, 2009, 07:14:45 AM
Thanks for the link.  Violin and String Quartet is definitely my favorite _____ and String Quartet piece.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Brewski on January 12, 2010, 09:34:18 AM
Happy Birthday to Morton Feldman.  Alex Ross has a post here (http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/alexross/2010/01/happy-birthday-morty.html), with link to a video of Projection 1 (1950).

--Bruce
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: karlhenning on January 12, 2010, 09:52:19 AM
I have (at unawares) been preparing for this, I suppose, with Crippled Symmetry in such heavy rotation.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: greg on January 19, 2010, 12:58:58 PM
So, I got most of his recorded stuff (including several recordings of the same pieces)- haven't checked how close to his whole recorded output, though I wouldn't be surprised if it's close to it.

I relistened to a few that I listened to a few years ago, such as the "concertos", and the 1st String Quartet, but my favorites so far are the ones that I listened to for the first time, such as For Christian Wolff and Neither. What should I listen to next if I like these?...
(or would it be impossible not to say "all of them!"?)  ;D
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: karlhenning on January 19, 2010, 01:02:35 PM
I relistened to a few that I listened to a few years ago, such as the "concertos", and the 1st String Quartet, but my favorites so far are the ones that I listened to for the first time, such as For Christian Wolff and Neither. What should I listen to next if I like these?...
(or would it be impossible not to say "all of them!"?)  ;D

Well, I'm really just going to list the pieces I am most enthusiastic about (in which number is included For Christian Wolff):

Why Patterns?
Rothko Chapel
Coptic Light
Crippled Symmetry
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: UB on January 19, 2010, 08:06:28 PM
I will second Karl's excellent list with the addition of the late graph work "Out of last pieces."
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: greg on January 20, 2010, 04:30:42 AM
Well, I'm really just going to list the pieces I am most enthusiastic about (in which number is included For Christian Wolff):

Why Patterns?
Rothko Chapel
Coptic Light
Crippled Symmetry

Thanks for the list.  :)
I listened to Why Patterns yesterday and didn't care for it... Rothko Chapel I've heard clips of on youtube and plan to listen to the whole thing since I loved it. I heard Coptic Light on youtube not long ago, and liked that one, too. Crippled Symmetry I just haven't got to yet (was about to listen to it yesterday)...  :D
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: karlhenning on January 20, 2010, 07:36:33 AM
Heavy Metal Dave has now officially become a Feldmaniac.  Life is good.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: karlhenning on January 20, 2010, 07:37:42 AM
I listened to Why Patterns yesterday and didn't care for it...

But (as implied by my list) that is one of my great favorites!  Come back to it in 15 years.  Feldman was patient . . . .
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: MN Dave on January 20, 2010, 07:40:15 AM
Heavy Metal Dave has now officially become a Feldmaniac.  Life is good.

 :)

Well, I wouldn't go that far...yet.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: MN Dave on January 20, 2010, 10:36:18 AM
Feldman is repetitious like pop music and calming like new age; what makes him"classical"?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: CD on January 20, 2010, 10:52:49 AM
Is it repetition that makes pop "pop"? Haydn is pretty repetitious, but one would be hard-pressed to call his music "pop". And there is quite a bit of Feldman that is very un-calming — for instance his Durations pieces or the String Quartet (1979).

From my understanding, whenever classical music approaches Windham Hill, the difference is the fact that the former is notated, while the latter is not.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: MN Dave on January 20, 2010, 10:56:34 AM
Is it repetition that makes pop "pop"? Haydn is pretty repetitious, but one would be hard-pressed to call his music "pop". And there is quite a bit of Feldman that is very un-calming — for instance his Durations pieces or the String Quartet (1979).

From my understanding, whenever classical music approaches Windham Hill, the difference is the fact that the former is notated, while the latter is not.

Repetition is part of what makes pop "pop".

I haven't heard a lot of Feldman. In fact, one piece so far. Though I've read a bit about him.

Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: karlhenning on January 20, 2010, 11:03:56 AM
There's repetition in most music, of course . . . I don't find the repetition in Feldman to be at all related to the repetition in pop music.  The 'relaxing' aspect, too, I find more engaging, more 'mysterious', than your new agey stuff.
 
(Not that it's your new agey stuff . . . .)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: MN Dave on January 20, 2010, 11:13:28 AM
In my experience, one of the main complaints about pop music is that it's too repetitious.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: MN Dave on January 20, 2010, 11:19:27 AM
And simplicity. I mean, is this stuff hard to play? Maybe it requires endurance, but otherwise...   :)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: greg on January 20, 2010, 02:32:21 PM
Feldman is repetitious like pop music and calming like new age; what makes him"classical"?
Could you imagine going to a store and having them play Feldman?  ;D

I could just hear it now... "oh, boy, golly, that is some strange music. It's like, uh, you know, off... and there's, like, no beat to it. And it sounds like there is a piano and violin playing stuff. And there's no lyrics. This is creepy. The notes don't sound right.... ehhh mama, help me! I scared. Did a serial killer write this? Wahhhh...."



In my experience, one of the main complaints about pop music is that it's too repetitious.
I once asked a friend what he liked about the song "Gasolina" (the hit reggaeton song about 5 or so years ago). I told him that the beat is the same thing over and over again (I might've also said it's repetitive and boring, though I probably didn't). He just said, "that's the system."  ???

Honestly, such a response just make my brain explode with confusion, but maybe it'd be best to keep in mind that most people don't care too much to think for themself when it comes to music, and are kind of like lost sheep that end up following whatever shepherd they think is right for them (factoring in what they're exposed to and their demographic). Luckily, I have known a few people who listen to "everything" (though I doubt they've scratched the surface of classical or jazz), so not every single person is like that.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: CD on January 20, 2010, 02:39:58 PM
And simplicity. I mean, is this stuff hard to play? Maybe it requires endurance, but otherwise...   :)

The simplicity is deceiving as Luke and others here have mentioned. From what I've heard, Feldman's notation is famously precise. I can't yet read music, so I couldn't say.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: greg on January 20, 2010, 02:47:39 PM
And simplicity. I mean, is this stuff hard to play? Maybe it requires endurance, but otherwise...   :)

(unless you're talking about Feldman)

Lol, try playing some of the hit songs transcribed in a Guitar magazine. If you've never picked up a guitar before, just practice for a month or two and you're good.

I was listening to this one really popular song, "Crazy Bitch" this morning. I think this song pretty much sums up what is wrong with the world.



Here's the video and here's the tab:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKX8v46Z11E#movie_player

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/tabs/b/buckcherry/crazy_bitch_tab.htm


Go ahead, just pick up a guitar and practice for about a month, and you'll be rich, famous, and have many women that worship you. Just don't, you know, get better than you were at the end of that first month, because that pathway leads down to EEEEEEEEVVVVILLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!   >:D :'(
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: greg on January 20, 2010, 02:49:17 PM
The simplicity is deceiving as Luke and others here have mentioned. From what I've heard, Feldman's notation is famously precise. I can't yet read music, so I couldn't say.
Yeah, let's just say he changes time signatures nearly every bar.  :D
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: MN Dave on January 20, 2010, 03:00:55 PM
Interesting. Thanks, fellas.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Brahmsian on October 19, 2010, 03:36:20 PM
OK.  Well, I had my first exposure to Feldman, as I listened to his Piano & String Quartet (Kronos Quartet recording).  I wasn't enthused, to be honest.  :(  It wasn't a, shall we say, barnstorming first listen.

I found the work to be a little too 'pianissimo'.  I guess I had a different expectation.

Oh well, I reserve judgment on Feldman until further listening.

For now, however, I think I may hold off on listening to his 5-hour string quartet.  ;D
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Brewski on October 19, 2010, 03:42:01 PM
He is definitely one of those "not for every day" composers.  I like the trance-inducing state that some of his pieces can produce, but listening to much of is work does require you to be carried along at the mercy of a slower moving vehicle!  I find his pieces work exceptionally well in the concert hall, where you don't have many distractions and are forced to concentrate on the music.

I actually haven't yet heard that (notorious) Second String Quartet.  ;D

--Bruce
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: DavidW on October 19, 2010, 05:54:07 PM
So for a newbie, is Coptic Light the way to go?  I see that it appeared often in the favorites list, or would you rec something else? :)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 19, 2010, 07:12:23 PM
Since Takemitsu has been flying under my radar lately, I would like to get into some of Feldman's music, but I'm not really sure where to start. Since I'm more of a fan of orchestral music, can anybody give me some recommendations? Thanks!
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on October 19, 2010, 08:07:29 PM
So for a newbie, is Coptic Light the way to go?  I see that it appeared often in the favorites list, or would you rec something else? :)

I'd go with that CPO/Zender 2cd.

Since Takemitsu has been flying under my radar lately, I would like to get into some of Feldman's music, but I'm not really sure where to start. Since I'm more of a fan of orchestral music, can anybody give me some recommendations? Thanks!

I'd go with the CPO?Zender 2cd.

OK.  Well, I had my first exposure to Feldman, as I listened to his Piano & String Quartet (Kronos Quartet recording).  I wasn't enthused, to be honest.  :(  It wasn't a, shall we say, barnstorming first listen.

I found the work to be a little too 'pianissimo'.  I guess I had a different expectation.

Oh well, I reserve judgment on Feldman until further listening.

For now, however, I think I may hold off on listening to his 5-hour string quartet.  ;D

Zanax? Vicidin? Percaset?,... I hear a few bong hi Seriously, you were probably just listening, something you shouldn't do with Feldman. Just treat him like a glorified Eno, haha! Set it, and forget it! Put it on and go about your biz,... especially that Kronos piece. It's for those sleepless 3am, existential hangovers.

"Crazy Bitch"

In the Feldman Thread??? :o??? :o oh, for soothe :'([quote author=Corey link=topic=6626.msg386259#msg386259 date=1264013569

From my understanding, whenever classical music approaches Windham Hill, the difference is the fact that the former is notated, while the latter is not.
[/quote]

LOL! Has anyone ever met a New Age artist? Who is even considered anymore? Isn't it called Contemporary Instrumental, or something? Back to that Xenakis quote??? ack!!! George Winston vs. Feldman, oh, that's funny, haha!


Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on October 19, 2010, 08:24:15 PM
I'm looking for a new Feldman friend.

RULE #1: nothing over 1 cd length.



That limits it to certain recordings of

1) the cello/piano piece
2) Triadic Memories
3) Trio
4) Piano, Violin, Viola, Cello
5) for John Cage
6) Clarinet & SQ

Otherwise, Violin & SQ, and SQ No.2 are on the radar. The former may be the way to go. (btw- the crossed out items I've already had, and I'm kinda eh on them,...though, TriadMem's cool).



I used to try Feldman for the NewAge-y aspects, but then I just tired of ALL music like that. Who's gonna tell me I need music to relax? Motherfu... Now I'll go to Feldman in spite of the so-called relaxing aspects.



The last time I "heard" that Kronos cd was during sex. It repeated 3 times. DavidW will never listen to the piece again!



and, btw- "normal" people think the Kronos disc is "creepy", NOT soothing. Trust me, I've tried,...oh, how I've tried.

"eeeww,...that's kinda creepy. Are you gonna rape me?"

I kid you not (it DID get better from there, haha)!

WARNING: DON'T THINK FELDMAN WILL HAVE THE SAME EFFECT AS BARRY WHITE ON THE LADIES!!!!
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Brewski on October 20, 2010, 08:40:15 AM
WARNING: DON'T THINK FELDMAN WILL HAVE THE SAME EFFECT AS BARRY WHITE ON THE LADIES!!!!

 :D

--Bruce
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: karlhenning on October 20, 2010, 08:44:09 AM
But, dude, Triadic Memories is one of my faves. And you can find it on a single disc, too.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: karlhenning on October 20, 2010, 10:56:51 AM
The last time I "heard" that Kronos cd was during sex. It repeated 3 times. DavidW will never listen to the piece again!

You really need a full paragraph break, there . . . .
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: DavidW on October 20, 2010, 12:05:30 PM
snips I'm sure that your gf thanks you for the most unique experience that she has ever had. :D
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on November 22, 2010, 02:52:03 PM
John11inch ::) has posted SQ 2, in 28 installments on YouTube. I'm on 1 now, and frankly, I can tell that this is not my fav Feldman. So far it's reminding of SQ (1979), meaning, it's not in the obsessive, Triadic Memories/Piano & SQ, style.

I believe most all Feldman is now on YouTube thanks to John11inch and Wellesz.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: petrarch on November 22, 2010, 04:39:16 PM
John11inch ::) has posted SQ 2, in 28 installments on YouTube. I'm on 1 now, and frankly, I can tell that this is not my fav Feldman. So far it's reminding of SQ (1979), meaning, it's not in the obsessive, Triadic Memories/Piano & SQ, style.

I like SQ2 a lot. It's more contemplative than obsessive. I attended a performance of it at the Zankel Hall auditorium at Carnegie Hall in NYC some 5 years ago and I can tell you I didn't feel it was long, so engrossing were the notes, the timbre, the flow and overall sound. The audience was invited to change positions at will to experience the work from different perspectives, including stepping up to the stage and stand, sit or lie down next to the musicians. A truly memorable experience.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on November 22, 2010, 10:46:05 PM
I like SQ2 a lot. It's more contemplative than obsessive. I attended a performance of it at the Zankel Hall auditorium at Carnegie Hall in NYC some 5 years ago and I can tell you I didn't feel it was long, so engrossing were the notes, the timbre, the flow and overall sound. The audience was invited to change positions at will to experience the work from different perspectives, including stepping up to the stage and stand, sit or lie down next to the musicians. A truly memorable experience.

ok, well thaaat's cool! ;) I'm sure I wouldn't be complaining about that!



I admit the foible of not being able to deal with the multi-cd format of Late Feldman. I had many of those HatHut boxes,...oy, and sold them for like $1 a piece (ouch,... pre-snyprrr), and, I mean,... Imean,...

The guy "scarecrow" on Amazon said something about For Christian Wolff, like, where do we need a 4hr. flute sonata? I just thought he had a point there.



I have a serious question here, which feels to me like the elephant in the room. Will you forgive me for asking, but was Feldman a drug addict? I know, obviously, that his music derives from his smoking, haha,... so, I mean, was he a Junkie too, like so many New York Artists? If that were the case, then wouldn't it be obvious where his inspiration came from? I mean, is he just mimicking a narcotic high? I'm sorry, but his entire output, much as I like it, sounds like Junkie Genius. No?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: karlhenning on November 23, 2010, 04:38:52 AM
Drug use is inimical to creative work.  Even the Beatles, who wound up popularizing the myth, demonstrate my point: through most of the Sgt Pepper sessions, Lennon was high to some extent or other, and most of the time he was no bloody use.
 
However, I digress.  Someone who knows Feldman's bio much better than I must answer . . . .
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on November 24, 2010, 09:30:25 AM
I'm 1hr. into SQ 2.

I still think it reminds me of SQ '79,... will have to listen to that later.

eh,... I like "listening" as it goes, but, on a theoretical level, I just don't see the need for the duration. I know it's supposed to be aural wallpaper, but, for that, anything will do (bees, birds, trees).

I just find myself wanting to shake my head disapprovingly at Feldman, like, Oh, you are just so willful, aren't you?

The more I contemplate the implications of a SIX HOUR STRING QUARTET (haha), the more I demand an answer to my question about whether Feldman was a bona fide drug addict (which, as I said, his cigarette consumption heartily attests to). Isn't it almost obvious that his music has an opiate quality to it? I've been on hospital drugs before, and they made me feel the way Feldman sounds, soooo,...




Still, as far as SQ 2, I would rather like to hear the other Feldman style, the obsessing on one idea, like Piano & String Quartet, rather than the patch-quilt style of SQ '79. Has anyone written that one yet (Beat Furrer No.3?)?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: karlhenning on November 24, 2010, 09:34:31 AM
eh,... I like "listening" as it goes, but, on a theoretical level, I just don't see the need for the duration. I know it's supposed to be aural wallpaper, but, for that, anything will do (bees, birds, trees).

Still, there is a distinction.  The bees do what they do, the birds do what they do.  With Feldman, there is nonetheless the dimension of an artist's intention.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on November 24, 2010, 09:46:27 AM
Still, there is a distinction.  The bees do what they do, the birds do what they do.  With Feldman, there is nonetheless the dimension of an artist's intention.

And I think it is that "intentionality" that I am frowning on. Instead of hearing all the open possibilities of life, I am hearing the cold, calculated, sterile musings of a city dweller locked away in a hermetically sealed studio filled with stale cigarette smoke.

I am starting to become more interested in Feldman's personal day-to-day behavior than his music. Go figure. Maybe I'm just obsessed with his bizarre, turtle-like appearance? And the cigarette thing,... why,... IS that disturbing? ???

He looks mean.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: petrarch on November 24, 2010, 03:16:03 PM
And I think it is that "intentionality" that I am frowning on. Instead of hearing all the open possibilities of life, I am hearing the cold, calculated, sterile musings of a city dweller locked away in a hermetically sealed studio filled with stale cigarette smoke.

I am starting to become more interested in Feldman's personal day-to-day behavior than his music. Go figure. Maybe I'm just obsessed with his bizarre, turtle-like appearance? And the cigarette thing,... why,... IS that disturbing? ???

He looks mean.

It's been almost a decade since I last read it, but I recall enjoying it very much, and might give you some insight into him:

Give my regards to Eighth Street
http://www.amazon.com/Regards-Eighth-Street-Exact-Change/dp/1878972316
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: karlhenning on November 24, 2010, 04:58:42 PM
. . . I am starting to become more interested in Feldman's personal day-to-day behavior than his music.

Can't help you, there. Day-to-day behavior in Buffalo, NY is not something that any man with feeling can long contemplate with an untroubled spirit.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: mjwal on November 25, 2010, 08:14:16 AM
I will second the recommendation of Give My Regards to Eighth St
and to various people's recommendations of Rothko Chapel, Palais de Mari and the Cello Concerto (among others) I would add:
Words and Music - Beckett "setting", absolutely riveting and deeply moving, with an IMO impressive Omar Ibrahim - but for a negative review of this recording, the only one ever available in Europe I think, go to this great page on the Beckett/Feldman nexus: http://www.themodernword.com/beckett/beckett_feldman_wam.html
For Samuel Beckett (which I find achingly sad; I have 2 recordings but not the one by Cambreling)
Three Voices for Joan La Barbara
For Stefan Wolpe
and the first I ever experienced, in a concert: For Philip Guston (I only nodded off once or twice during the 3 and three quarter hour duration; of the 60 or so listeners in the Musikhochschule about fifteen were left.)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on November 25, 2010, 02:43:50 PM
Can't help you, there. Day-to-day behavior in Buffalo, NY is not something that any man with feeling can long contemplate with an untroubled spirit.

Buffalo?,... do tell.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: PaulSC on December 22, 2010, 07:54:16 PM
Ah... Gotta love Gracenote/CDDB...  :D

(The real answer is Morton Feldman: String Quartet, which I'm ripping from my old Koch CD. And no, I didn't upload this correct data to the Gracenote database.)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Daverz on December 22, 2010, 08:02:39 PM
Ah... Gotta love Gracenote/CDDB...  :D

(The real answer is Morton Feldman: String Quartet, which I'm ripping from my old Koch CD. And no, I didn't upload this correct data to the Gracenote database.)

The cover features Uncle Morty in a thong.  (Sorry for the image... ;D ).
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on January 17, 2011, 08:31:55 PM
I just bought the recording with Rothko Chapel and Why Patterns? on New Albion and this will be my first foray into Feldman's sound world. I have read through this thread and it's very interesting to read James' comments. He comes to music from a very narrow perspective. I don't think he can fully appreciate what Feldman does unless he puts his guard down and just lets the music speak for itself. This isn't music that somebody is going to get instantly and if they do, then they probably already knew what to expect going into the music.

We never know if we don't like something until we've given it a fair chance to grow on us. Apart of my appreciation for a composer like Berg or Ligeti, for example, stemmed from reading about their lives, the events that shaped their music, and most importantly actually listening to the music with an open-mind. If you come to the music with some kind of pre-conceived notion, then you'll never appreciate what it has to offer the listener. Music can come from so many different perspectives but you'll never understand anything unless you remain available to the music.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: PaulSC on January 17, 2011, 10:19:33 PM
Mirror Image, I hope you enjoy exploring Feldman. You've picked an excellent pair of works to start. In terms of the context for appreciating this work, Feldman's essays are recommended reading -- irreverent, coarse language, sharp thinking.

(http://static.letsbuyit.com/filer/images/uk/products/original/147/42/give-my-regards-to-eighth-street-collected-writings-of-morton-feldman-exact-change-14742815.jpeg)

(Edit: and of course I thought AFTER posting to review the thread, and this book has already been mentioned multiple times.)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on January 18, 2011, 08:31:38 AM
Mirror Image, I hope you enjoy exploring Feldman. You've picked an excellent pair of works to start. In terms of the context for appreciating this work, Feldman's essays are recommended reading -- irreverent, coarse language, sharp thinking.

(http://static.letsbuyit.com/filer/images/uk/products/original/147/42/give-my-regards-to-eighth-street-collected-writings-of-morton-feldman-exact-change-14742815.jpeg)

(Edit: and of course I thought AFTER posting to review the thread, and this book has already been mentioned multiple times.)


I'll have to check that book out sometime. Thanks.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Rinaldo on July 11, 2011, 01:20:22 PM
This isn't music that somebody is going to get instantly and if they do, then they probably already knew what to expect going into the music.

I think if you're accustomed to ambient music, Feldman is very approachable – especially the "popular" pieces like Rothko Chapel (I was hooked from the opening bars; it immediately sets an intriguing atmosphere).

Listening to Coptic Light right now for the second time in a row.. mesmerizing. This is the kind of music that fires up my imagination & takes it to new, undiscovered worlds.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: karlhenning on July 11, 2011, 02:00:09 PM
Hi, Rinaldo!

Do you know Crippled Symmetries, by any chance?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Rinaldo on July 11, 2011, 02:26:04 PM
Do you know Crippled Symmetries, by any chance?

Not yet.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on July 11, 2011, 02:42:54 PM
I think if you're accustomed to ambient music, Feldman is very approachable – especially the "popular" pieces like Rothko Chapel (I was hooked from the opening bars; it immediately sets an intriguing atmosphere).

Listening to Coptic Light right now for the second time in a row.. mesmerizing. This is the kind of music that fires up my imagination & takes it to new, undiscovered worlds.

Rothko Chapel is a mesmerizing work and one of my favorite in this ambient type of style. Feldman is a composer, however, that I seldom think about or listen very often for the simple fact that I like a little more meat in my music than textures although it is nice to get lost in these types of sonic tapestries from time to time.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: ibanezmonster on July 11, 2011, 06:01:38 PM
Rothko Chapel is a mesmerizing work and one of my favorite in this ambient type of style. Feldman is a composer, however, that I seldom think about or listen very often for the simple fact that I like a little more meat in my music than textures although it is nice to get lost in these types of sonic tapestries from time to time.
That sums up how I feel about Feldman completely.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on July 11, 2011, 06:09:53 PM
That sums up how I feel about Feldman completely.

Yes, I think he's an interesting composer, but interesting doesn't translate to enjoyable to listen to.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on July 11, 2011, 08:14:37 PM
I've been listening to the 'Concertos' CPO set all night. Sometimes, only sonic wallpaper will do when I NEED the least amount of sounds, for the longest period of time, to concentrate on other things, otherwise all I'd do is... THIS!!! :P
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: karlhenning on July 12, 2011, 12:06:34 AM
Yes, I think he's an interesting composer, but interesting doesn't translate to enjoyable to listen to.

As a principle, this is true. I find it misapplied here in this thread, though, for I do simply find his music enjoyable listening.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: not edward on July 12, 2011, 04:18:15 AM
As a principle, this is true. I find it misapplied here in this thread, though, for I do simply find his music enjoyable listening.
One of the things I've found most intriguing about the later Feldman is how works can be in many ways technically very similar, yet for me have a very different atmosphere: compare the claustrophobic For Samuel Beckett to the nervy For John Cage and the heavenly lengths of Triadic Memories or Piano and String Quartet.

(Actually, it occurs to me there's a similar parallel in Cage's number pieces; One2 and 101 being conventionally expressive and direct; Seventy-Four being like a soft-focus version of Scelsi; the solo violin pieces being very drawn out, with long single tones separated by silence; Sixty-Eight having huge explosions of microtonally bent single-note unisons (another Italian point of comparison here: Nono's No hay caminos, hay que caminar....); and works like Twenty-Nine with their claustrophobic intertwining of multifarious drones.)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Bogey on July 12, 2011, 04:29:43 AM
Always was a big fan of Morton "Marty" Feldman.  He made me laugh throughout Young Frankenstein.....did not know he composed music as well.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_gyeMCT-Ulvc/TN3evbS36SI/AAAAAAAAAFg/hs0DabMBMmo/s1600/Marty+Feldman+as+Jesus.jpg)

Ooops, sorry, I thought you meant Martin Feldman. ;D
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: karlhenning on July 12, 2011, 04:35:38 AM
Well, I should have gone to Buffalo to study with him . . . .
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on July 12, 2011, 05:23:02 AM
Well, I should have gone to Buffalo to study with him . . . .

now get back to your copying of Brokeback ;)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on July 12, 2011, 07:35:51 AM
As a principle, this is true. I find it misapplied here in this thread, though, for I do simply find his music enjoyable listening.

What do you enjoy about Feldman's music, Karl? Perhaps you can shed some light on what I'm not hearing?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: karlhenning on July 12, 2011, 09:19:11 AM
What do you enjoy about Feldman's music, Karl?

Chiefly, the sound of it.  Let me think a bit, MI . . . though, really, the question sounds to me a bit like What do you enjoy about cranberry juice? . . .
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: karlhenning on October 25, 2011, 10:26:03 AM
What do you enjoy about Feldman's music, Karl? Perhaps you can shed some light on what I'm not hearing?

Loved Rothko Chapel, haven't bothered exploring anything else for whatever reasons.

I'd suggest Crippled Symmetries & Triadic Memories.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Robert on October 25, 2011, 10:38:53 AM
I'd suggest Crippled Symmetries & Triadic Memories.

Nice.....
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Lethevich on October 25, 2011, 10:51:22 AM
I'd suggest Crippled Symmetries & Triadic Memories.

Those are two favourites. If MI is looking for more of the same, then The Viola in My Life (sometimes recorded excerpted) is quite Rothko-esque in mood and dimensions.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 25, 2011, 11:07:35 AM
I'd suggest Crippled Symmetries & Triadic Memories.

Cool Karl, do these works contain lyrical moments like those found in Rothko Chapel?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 25, 2011, 11:08:46 AM
Those are two favourites. If MI is looking for more of the same, then The Viola in My Life (sometimes recorded excerpted) is quite Rothko-esque in mood and dimensions.

Thanks, Sara. I've heard of this work, but I'll check it out.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: karlhenning on October 25, 2011, 11:31:30 AM
Cool Karl, do these works contain lyrical moments like those found in Rothko Chapel?

Not sure I could answer, John. I don’t particularly think of Rothko Chapel — or Feldman’s work in general — as “lyrical.”
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 25, 2011, 11:37:59 AM
Not sure I could answer, John. I don’t particularly think of Rothko Chapel — or Feldman’s work in general — as “lyrical.”

The last part of Rothko Chapel has a great melody, which is quoted by the viola. This gives it a lyricism that's not quite found in the rest of the work, which seems to revolve more around texture. I love the harmonic backdrop that supports this melody. If I'm not mistaken, this melody is something he heard as a child in church or something to this effect.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: not edward on October 25, 2011, 04:59:18 PM
The last part of Rothko Chapel has a great melody, which is quoted by the viola. This gives it a lyricism that's not quite found in the rest of the work, which seems to revolve more around texture. I love the harmonic backdrop that supports this melody. If I'm not mistaken, this melody is something he heard as a child in church or something to this effect.
I think it's actually a quote from one of his very earliest compositions, but I don't have the book which commented on this to hand right now.

For what it's worth, I'd very much go for the Viola in my Life series if Rothko Chapel is the only Feldman that really connects with you. It's probably the most melody-focused work of his mature years. You can get it complete on this ECM disc, though be aware that it's only 40 minutes of music:



Incidentally, Mode have just released what must be one of the most important Feldman discs in years:
http://www.amazon.com/Orchestra-Feldman/dp/B005IY3B18/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1319590345&sr=1-1 (no image yet)

The five works on it are:

1. Intersection 1, for large orchestra
2. Structures for Orchestra, for orchestra
3. On Time and the Instrumental Factor, for orchestra
4. Voice and Instruments, for soprano & orchestra
5. Orchestra, for orchestra

And all except the first are world premiere recordings.

They also will be releasing before too long a new coupling of Rothko Chapel and For Stefan Wolpe with the New London Chamber Choir under James Wood; the disc will be filled out with Seth Josel in the first recording of the reconstructed The Possibility of a New Work for Electric Guitar.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 25, 2011, 05:23:03 PM
I think it's actually a quote from one of his very earliest compositions, but I don't have the book which commented on this to hand right now.

For what it's worth, I'd very much go for the Viola in my Life series if Rothko Chapel is the only Feldman that really connects with you. It's probably the most melody-focused work of his mature years. You can get it complete on this ECM disc, though be aware that it's only 40 minutes of music:



Incidentally, Mode have just released what must be one of the most important Feldman discs in years:
http://www.amazon.com/Orchestra-Feldman/dp/B005IY3B18/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1319590345&sr=1-1 (no image yet)

The five works on it are:

1. Intersection 1, for large orchestra
2. Structures for Orchestra, for orchestra
3. On Time and the Instrumental Factor, for orchestra
4. Voice and Instruments, for soprano & orchestra
5. Orchestra, for orchestra

And all except the first are world premiere recordings.

They also will be releasing before too long a new coupling of Rothko Chapel and For Stefan Wolpe with the New London Chamber Choir under James Wood; the disc will be filled out with Seth Josel in the first recording of the reconstructed The Possibility of a New Work for Electric Guitar.

Thanks for the information, Edward.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on October 25, 2011, 08:11:55 PM
I think it's actually a quote from one of his very earliest compositions, but I don't have the book which commented on this to hand right now.

For what it's worth, I'd very much go for the Viola in my Life series if Rothko Chapel is the only Feldman that really connects with you. It's probably the most melody-focused work of his mature years. You can get it complete on this ECM disc, though be aware that it's only 40 minutes of music:



Incidentally, Mode have just released what must be one of the most important Feldman discs in years:
http://www.amazon.com/Orchestra-Feldman/dp/B005IY3B18/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1319590345&sr=1-1 (no image yet)

The five works on it are:

1. Intersection 1, for large orchestra
2. Structures for Orchestra, for orchestra
3. On Time and the Instrumental Factor, for orchestra
4. Voice and Instruments, for soprano & orchestra
5. Orchestra, for orchestra

And all except the first are world premiere recordings.

They also will be releasing before too long a new coupling of Rothko Chapel and For Stefan Wolpe with the New London Chamber Choir under James Wood; the disc will be filled out with Seth Josel in the first recording of the reconstructed The Possibility of a New Work for Electric Guitar.

I've gotten around to considering Violin & Orchestra (on ColLegno). Perhaps Orchestra is similar. I have Voice & Instruments II (Etcetera), and another piece like this, and I think the late '70s was one of my favorite Feldman phases (very nervous, busy sounds).
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: chasmaniac on November 02, 2011, 08:49:15 AM
I've just youtubed some of this fellow's stuff and am led to ask, a la Robert Nozick in one of his essays, Why is there something rather than nothing?

Why is it planned rather than accidental? Why tuned rather than toneless?

There is clearly a satisfaction to be enjoyed in shaping sounds, in recognizing their shapes, in accepting (if you will) aural shapeliness. Is that what's going on here?

No sarcasm intended, I'm serious.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 02, 2011, 09:50:54 AM
I've not had any great success analyzing it, chas.  Compositionally, there are times when I set about a piece partly with the thought, What if I try to write a kind of Feldman piece?  And while i have been satisfied with the resulting music, it's been my own, and not really a particularly Feldmanian piece.  I'm not sure how it works, why it works . . . but when I listen, I feel sure that it works.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: chasmaniac on November 02, 2011, 12:35:31 PM
I'm just playing a hunch here, but allow me to suggest that Feldman is organizing sounds in an aesthetically pleasing way, and further that this formulation will serve as a definition of music in its most primitive form. It's taken me half a day to put these silly words together, but they seem to explain the impact that Five Pianos, for example, had on me this morning. It seemed as if the veil of time had lifted and I was listening to musical art at its dawn, "musical" because tuned and "art" because consciously planned, composed, and all this before harmonic and rhythmic sophistication had removed the practice from its unformed infancy.

This is what music sounds like when it dreams.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: chasmaniac on November 02, 2011, 02:47:06 PM
A provisional Feldman wishlist:




EDIT: ooops, forgot the piece I like the most:



Comments? Suggestions?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: petrarch on November 02, 2011, 05:39:52 PM
There is clearly a satisfaction to be enjoyed in shaping sounds, in recognizing their shapes, in accepting (if you will) aural shapeliness. Is that what's going on here?

I think you unwittingly have very concisely expressed a mode of listening that is applicable to a lot of (so-called) "modern" or "contemporary" music. The contrast might be more apparent in works of Feldman or Nono or others where the material is sparse and the music relies on the sound itself and the various shades of timbre, or when it is no longer strictly "note-based" and is more "event-based"--think of the evolving textures in e.g. Ligeti.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on November 02, 2011, 06:23:11 PM
A provisional Feldman wishlist:




EDIT: ooops, forgot the piece I like the most:



Comments? Suggestions?

I think the Feldman Discography begins with:


'The Ecstasy of the Moment' (Barton Workshop/ETCETERA)

4 Concertos (Zender/CPO)

Piano & String Quartet (Kronos/NONESUCH)


String Quartet (GCM/KOCH)
String Quartet No.2 (or,... pick your own 'Late Work') ;) ;D


Patterns...
For John Cage
Triadic Memories
The Viola in My Life
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 03, 2011, 05:49:23 AM
A provisional Feldman wishlist:

[...]

Comments? Suggestions?

I own and heartily endorse three of those recordings:


I've a different recording, but I am sure that Nonken makes a fine job of Triadic Memories.

I entirely approve of your initial wishlist.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: chasmaniac on November 03, 2011, 06:18:27 AM
I've plunked for 3 of the pictured releases, Five Ps, Viola and Rothko. I hope that more intense listens will give me more to say about them, whether profound or enlightening.  ;D

Thanks Petrarch, Snyprrr and especially Karl for the pointer.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Brewski on November 03, 2011, 06:40:27 AM
Hope you enjoy those! The only one of those pictured I can vouch for is Rothko Chapel, and the performance of Why Patterns? is excellent, too.

For Feldman fans near New York, on December 8 at Issue Project Room, Nicholas De Maison (keyboards) and Amelia Lukas (flute) will perform For Christian Wolff (1986, 180 minutes). Info here:

http://www.issueprojectroom.org/2011/10/17/ensemble-sospeso-morton-feldmans-for-christian-wolff/

--Bruce
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: chasmaniac on November 14, 2011, 02:31:30 PM
This is what music sounds like when it dreams.

Listening now, and I'm happy with the characterization above. It must be extraordinarily difficult, in a world full to overflowing with traditions of consonance and tune, to compose in sound itself. Have people written this way for natural sounds, that is to say, sounds that are unprepared and untuned? (And I mean written. Accidental sounds would not be the same thing at all.)

"What is the metre of the dictionary?" Dylan Thomas's question strikes me as apt.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: scarlattiglenross on July 14, 2012, 11:53:50 AM
Hello there,

I just wanted to tell all Morton Feldman fans here on GMG that I'm resisting all common sense and have started a record label, with my first release a benchmark recording of one of Feldman's incredible late pieces. Info burst follows. Sound sample and purchasing information may be found on my site at http://frozenreeds.com/?p=21 (http://frozenreeds.com/?p=21)


Morton Feldman
Crippled Symmetry: at June in Buffalo
The Feldman Soloists
frozen reeds fr1/2

In 2000, Eberhard Blum, Nils Vigeland, and Jan Williams came together once more as “The Feldman Soloists” to perform Crippled Symmetry, the trio Feldman composed for them, on the 25th anniversary celebration of the festival he founded. The recording of this concert is now finally available on CD, and is destined to become the reference release of this work.

Required listening for all fans of Feldman’s rich, hypnotic world of enigmatic harmony and mnemonic echo. Mastered by Denis Blackham, and presented in a card package which unfolds to reveal the musicians’ “butterfly-like” arrangement on stage.

This turned out to be one of the best performances that we had ever given together. The rare and indescribable ‘magic moment’ of occasion and ambience seems to have inspired us. The recording of the concert belongs to my most valued sound documents. When I listened to it for the first time, my immediate reaction was: this performance ought to be available on CD. Now, ten years later, it is.” -Eberhard Blum

Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on July 14, 2012, 07:42:43 PM
Hello there,

I just wanted to tell all Morton Feldman fans here on GMG that I'm resisting all common sense and have started a record label, with my first release a benchmark recording of one of Feldman's incredible late pieces. Info burst follows. Sound sample and purchasing information may be found on my site at http://frozenreeds.com/?p=21 (http://frozenreeds.com/?p=21)


Morton Feldman
Crippled Symmetry: at June in Buffalo
The Feldman Soloists
frozen reeds fr1/2

In 2000, Eberhard Blum, Nils Vigeland, and Jan Williams came together once more as “The Feldman Soloists” to perform Crippled Symmetry, the trio Feldman composed for them, on the 25th anniversary celebration of the festival he founded. The recording of this concert is now finally available on CD, and is destined to become the reference release of this work.

Required listening for all fans of Feldman’s rich, hypnotic world of enigmatic harmony and mnemonic echo. Mastered by Denis Blackham, and presented in a card package which unfolds to reveal the musicians’ “butterfly-like” arrangement on stage.

This turned out to be one of the best performances that we had ever given together. The rare and indescribable ‘magic moment’ of occasion and ambience seems to have inspired us. The recording of the concert belongs to my most valued sound documents. When I listened to it for the first time, my immediate reaction was: this performance ought to be available on CD. Now, ten years later, it is.” -Eberhard Blum

If you could just record the 2-cd pieces so that they fit on 1-cd ;D. For John Cage could probably use another recording,... the Trio,... maybe even another single issue Triadic Memories?

These are things we need! Any Feldman that you don't have to switch cds for.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on August 03, 2013, 04:40:29 AM
You can download an mp3 of the complete For Bunita Marcus at Amazon.com for just $0.89!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00162HWU2/ref=dm_ty_adp?ie=UTF8&parent=B00162I9UO

I'm listening now.  It's beautiful!!!
It seems worth it to push this thread up for this .89 cent recording. Though, I found it here:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Ddigital-music&field-keywords=for+Bunita+Marcus+

I'm finding myself really enjoying Feldman, especially the "piano and string quartet." I find myself musing about why I like this music.
Lately, I've been delving into 20th century music at a mad pace - after years of only listening to pre-19th century music. It can be overwhelming - even while I enjoy it - to figure out what really resonates with me.
Lately, I've been asking myself why I listen to music at all. What is it doing to and for me? Anyway, one reason I like Feldman is because
I feel like he sort of washes everything away. So I can occupy an almost empty space musically. It's nice to kind of break everything down. It reminds me of a metaphor someone gave about listening to the clavichord in concert (remarking on adjusting to its quietness). They said, it's like going into a dark room. At first you can't see anything but slowly you begin to see as your eyes adjust. In Feldman's music, it appears at first that nothing is happening. But slowly, you realize that, in fact, something interesting is going on. Anyway, I find that I like taking everything down to a very slow quiet place musically. Then, I suppose I can return to "busier" music once again, perhaps with "new ears"...if any of this makes any sense.       
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: San Antone on August 03, 2013, 04:59:06 PM
Written in 1981, this work for bass clarinet and percussion is a recent discovery for me.

https://www.youtube.com/v/G6KFSinod2Y

I like it.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: lescamil on August 03, 2013, 07:44:45 PM
One work by Feldman that really stays with me is his "opera" Neither:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0exs9F-888s

There's something particularly haunting about it that can really get to you that I haven't found in other works by Feldman.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 05, 2013, 10:06:16 PM
Well it appears I've become quite the Feldmanite (if I can make up a word here) with the purchase of these:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0011DZN70.01.L.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00003Q07Z.01.L.jpg)

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00AE10ACS.01.L.jpg) (http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0000/985/MI0000985300.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000003GK0.01.L.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0068RHODU.01.L.jpg)

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000K38E.01.L.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B005IY3B18.01.L.jpg)

Look forward to discovering more of this composer's music.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: petrarch on November 06, 2013, 04:30:55 AM
Look forward to discovering more of this composer's music.

Feldman is definitely worthwhile. I have the entire series on Mode and quite a few others and it is always a pleasure to listen to his works. Given your taste inclinations, you should definitely try Rothko Chapel... that last movement is just magical in the way it brings the work to a close. Have you listened to For Philip Guston in full yet? :)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: springrite on November 06, 2013, 04:32:36 AM
For Phillip Guston is fabulous! That recording (and the lecture) especially!
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 06, 2013, 07:30:18 AM
Feldman is definitely worthwhile. I have the entire series on Mode and quite a few others and it is always a pleasure to listen to his works. Given your taste inclinations, you should definitely try Rothko Chapel... that last movement is just magical in the way it brings the work to a close. Have you listened to For Philip Guston in full yet? :)

Yep, I've already heard Rothko Chapel many, many times (the California EAR Unit performance) and Why Patterns? as well. I need to revisit Why Patterns? though as it's been quite some since I listened to it. For Philip Guston I haven't heard yet as I just bought a recording of it (pictured above) yesterday. I agree with you about the last movement of Rothko Chapel, but the whole work is gorgeous.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: springrite on November 06, 2013, 07:44:53 AM
Yep, I've already heard Rothko Chapel many, many times (the California EAR Unit performance) and Why Patterns? as well. I need to revisit Why Patterns? though as it's been quite some since I listened to it. For Philip Guston I haven't heard yet as I just bought a recording of it (pictured above) yesterday. I agree with you about the last movement of Rothko Chapel, but the whole work is gorgeous.

I am a big fan of the California Ear Unit in general and Dorothy Stone in particular. I think you will like Guston. It is long, but then again, Feldman is all about scale and if anyone needs that kind of scale, it is Phillip Guston.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 06, 2013, 07:47:41 AM
I am a big fan of the California Ear Unit in general and Dorothy Stone in particular. I think you will like Guston. It is long, but then again, Feldman is all about scale and if anyone needs that kind of scale, it is Phillip Guston.

They're a fine ensemble no question about it. As for the length of For Philip Guston, that's not a problem because I'm probably going to just listen to it piece-by-piece instead of taking on the whole mammoth. That seems like a more viable, and realistic, way to enjoy the music. I did the same thing with Wagner's Ring. These are just too massive works to sit down to in one setting, but everyone knows this already I'm sure. :)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: springrite on November 06, 2013, 07:49:51 AM
They're a fine ensemble no question about it. As for the length of For Philip Guston, that's not a problem because I'm probably going to just listen to it piece-by-piece instead of taking on the whole mammoth. That seems like a more viable, and realistic, way to enjoy the music. I did the same thing with Wagner's Ring. These are just too massive works to sit down to in one setting, but everyone knows this already I'm sure. :)
If one day you do have half a day, please listen to it through. Unlike The Ring, it is a complete integral work of massive scale that makes sense only when listened in one sitting.

I trust you have the time.

(I also trust you don't have the patience)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 06, 2013, 07:56:22 AM
If one day you do have half a day, please listen to it through. Unlike The Ring, it is a complete integral work of massive scale that makes sense only when listened in one sitting.

I trust you have the time.

(I also trust you don't have the patience)

I have the patience, but lately I haven't had the time. :)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: petrarch on November 06, 2013, 07:57:37 AM
Unlike The Ring, it is a complete integral work of massive scale

This. It is a single piece, without subdivisions (yes, it is 4+ hours).
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 06, 2013, 08:31:09 AM
This. It is a single piece, without subdivisions (yes, it is 4+ hours).

The only subdivision is when I have to change the disc. ;)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Artem on November 06, 2013, 06:17:19 PM
Feldman is definitely worthwhile. I have the entire series on Mode
Do you have a favourite among them?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Octave on November 07, 2013, 04:48:07 AM
(http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y434/8ve/Music/mortyfeldman_laugh_zps9fa89d22.jpg)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: 7/4 on November 07, 2013, 04:50:45 AM
(http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y434/8ve/Music/mortyfeldman_laugh_zps9fa89d22.jpg)

Morty is so photogenic.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Octave on November 07, 2013, 04:51:33 AM
With friends like those...
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 07, 2013, 06:31:29 AM
(http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y434/8ve/Music/mortyfeldman_laugh_zps9fa89d22.jpg)

Haha! Great picture. :)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: not edward on November 07, 2013, 06:56:59 AM
Quote from: Gerard Grisey
With Feldman, it's absolutely extraordinary. It's like anti-music in the sense that all expectation is constantly deluded. He puts down a pattern and you expect it's going to go in that direction, and at that moment it doesn't. Later, it changes at exactly the moment when you think, "That's going to last." He is constantly negating whatever you expect.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: petrarch on November 07, 2013, 08:44:49 AM
Do you have a favourite among them?

They are all good in one way or another. I am especially fond of the one with Aki Takahashi, the 1950s recordings and Composing by Numbers.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Pessoa on November 20, 2013, 04:26:39 PM
For Philip Guston is the only of his recordings I own. Ive been playing it for years, in three parts or the 3cds in a row. Now i am feeling like moving to something else, probably with different timbres. I am considering the piano and string quartet. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 20, 2013, 06:26:37 PM
For Philip Guston is the only of his recordings I own. Ive been playing it for years, in three parts or the 3cds in a row. Now i am feeling like moving to something else, probably with different timbres. I am considering the piano and string quartet. Any thoughts?

Rothko Chapel. The California EAR Unit performance. 'Nuff said. 8)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Artem on November 20, 2013, 08:53:33 PM
I'm not a big fan of Piano and String Quartet. It is a nice piece, but a little too straight forward for my taste in late Feldman compositions.

Try his solo piano music instead. I like For Bunita Marcus a lot.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: amw on November 20, 2013, 10:11:39 PM
I quite like the untitled piece for cello and piano, Neither and Triadic Memories. The disc of X and Orchestra pieces has been on my imaginary wishlist for a while, if you're looking for some shorter Feldman.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Pessoa on November 21, 2013, 02:07:37 AM
Well, thanks for all the opinions. I like Bunita Marcus, not so much Rothko, and I like cello as an instrument, though I only listened to parts of Feldman´s output. Never heard the piano and string q., I was only guessing. All in all, I wonder if all the Feldman I like is not  condensed in Philip Guston already...
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: San Antone on November 21, 2013, 02:13:18 AM
I think this recording is one any Feldman fan should own.



It contains all the  music he wrote using graphical notation, including the seminal Intersection 3.  About the only thing I wish were different, would be to have David Tudor playing the piano works.  But, the performances are well done.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Pessoa on November 21, 2013, 03:34:39 AM
Very nice The Straits of Magellan.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: madaboutmahler on February 05, 2014, 09:30:34 AM
Have always been keen to explore this composer so will be starting to do so more now. Have just listened to Rothko Chapel for the first time and am pretty speechless. So haunting and mystical, yet so gorgeous.

Can I have some more recommendations? :)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Henk on February 05, 2014, 10:50:05 AM
Just downloaded this one for E 0,49 on E-music. It has 3 5-star reviews.

(http://images.emusic.com/music/images/album/142/781/14278133/600x600.jpg)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: San Antone on February 05, 2014, 11:10:25 AM
Have always been keen to explore this composer so will be starting to do so more now. Have just listened to Rothko Chapel for the first time and am pretty speechless. So haunting and mystical, yet so gorgeous.

Can I have some more recommendations? :)


Morton Feldman Topic on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiFgxH09t3vNHqMZW9aCAqg)

If you click on the Video tab, and then click the arrow next to "Posted Videos"; the selection for Playlists will display.  Clicking on this will show you two playlists, one with 64 videos, labeled Popular Morton Feldman Videos. 
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on February 05, 2014, 12:02:59 PM
Just downloaded this one for E 0,49 on E-music. It has 3 5-star reviews.

(http://images.emusic.com/music/images/album/142/781/14278133/600x600.jpg)

awesome!
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: madaboutmahler on February 05, 2014, 12:47:46 PM

Morton Feldman Topic on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiFgxH09t3vNHqMZW9aCAqg)

If you click on the Video tab, and then click the arrow next to "Posted Videos"; the selection for Playlists will display.  Clicking on this will show you two playlists, one with 64 videos, labeled Popular Morton Feldman Videos.

Thank you for this, will go through it. Currently listening to 'For Bunita Marcus'. Gorgeous. Despite the length, you just forget about any structural concerts and are completely hypnotised and enchanted by how hauntingly beautiful this music is..

Do you have any personal favourites?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: San Antone on February 05, 2014, 12:53:02 PM
Thank you for this, will go through it. Currently listening to 'For Bunita Marcus'. Gorgeous. Despite the length, you just forget about any structural concerts and are completely hypnotised and enchanted by how hauntingly beautiful this music is..

Do you have any personal favourites?

I don't really, but the pieces from his graphical notated period are some of the ones I listen more often than others.

Morton Feldman - Edition 9 - Composing by Numbers (http://www.moderecords.com/catalog/146feldman.html)
The Barton Workshop plays graphic scores

(http://www.moderecords.com/catalog/images/146feldman.jpg)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on February 06, 2014, 08:04:10 AM
I think this recording is one any Feldman fan should own.



It contains all the  music he wrote using graphical notation, including the seminal Intersection 3.  About the only thing I wish were different, would be to have David Tudor playing the piano works.  But, the performances are well done.

I like the other Barton Workshop 3cd on Etcetera "The Ecstasy of the Moment" (wow, took me FIVE tries to spell ecstasy... ayeayeaye).. Isn't there a bunch of duplication?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on February 07, 2014, 10:18:01 AM
Feldman has two manifestations of his late style:

a) the melodic fragment that gets looked at from all sides, a la 'Piano and String Quartet'.

b) the mushy, much greyer version which doesn't have a melodic hook, sounding more like shifting sands, a la 'Violin, Viola, Cello, Piano'.

There. Done!
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 07, 2014, 11:01:14 AM
The greyer is definitely the deleterious influnce of life in Buffalo ;)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on February 08, 2014, 07:36:57 AM
The greyer is definitely the deleterious influnce of life in Buffalo ;)

I can see that. His music caaan sound like a dreary snow day!
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on February 12, 2014, 07:35:39 PM
I've recently discovered Feldman's "Rothko Chapel" and I like it a lot. Can anyone with a good knowledge of his music recommend a similar work that would be a good place to start exploring his music further?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on February 12, 2014, 07:42:29 PM
I've recently discovered Feldman's "Rothko Chapel" and I like it a lot. Can anyone with a good knowledge of his music recommend a similar work that would be a good place to start exploring his music further?

I would check out For Franz Kline. It doesn't have a chorus, but it contains a lone voice set against an instrumental ensemble. Very cool piece.

http://www.youtube.com/v/DDuGj80TrVE

I'm not a big Feldman fan, but I do admire a few of his works and his general attitude about music, which he just composed music that he wanted to and didn't worry about anything else.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on February 12, 2014, 08:33:23 PM
I tend to like choir as opposed to solo voice. Even considering that, though, I liked "For Franz Kline" more than I thought I would at first. I'm listening to Feldman's "Coptic Light" right now, but I can't say I like it all that much as of now. It's impossible to tell, though, because I have many favorite 20th-century works that took me awhile to warm up to.

His composition philosophy sounds like Ligeti's. I'll post an interesting interview with Ligeti in his thread, which sheds some light on this.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on February 12, 2014, 08:44:18 PM
I tend to like choir as opposed to solo voice. Even considering that, though, I liked "For Franz Kline" more than I thought I would at first. I'm listening to Feldman's "Coptic Light" right now, but I can't say I like it all that much as of now. It's impossible to tell, though, because I have many favorite 20th-century works that took me awhile to warm up to.

His composition philosophy sounds like Ligeti's. I'll post an interesting interview with Ligeti in his thread, which sheds some light on this.

Glad you enjoyed For Franz Kline. I wouldn't say that I liked Coptic Light on first listen either, but I still remain rather indifferent to a lot of Feldman's music. Now, Ligeti, on the other hand, I enjoy a great deal.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: amw on February 12, 2014, 08:48:30 PM
This may or may not be a recommendation ( :P ) but my first exposure to Feldman was through a live NYC performance of the (anti-)opera Neither, which I immediately disliked, but which I've also never been able to forget. Even now I can still summon its sound-world before my ears. (I've warmed up to Feldman since, but it took probably 4-5 years.) I think there's a recording on hatART, don't know about a DVD.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: San Antone on February 13, 2014, 03:45:54 AM
Morton Feldman - String Quartet & Orchestra

https://www.youtube.com/v/CQ3QK4OjAM8

https://www.youtube.com/v/rtwh2oj_9dM
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: San Antone on February 13, 2014, 06:58:04 AM
Morton Feldman - Durations 3, I-II | for tuba, violin & piano (1961)

https://www.youtube.com/v/pcDanj3b5ng

In the series of pieces called Durations, Feldman notated only the noteheads indicating the pitch but not duration, allowing the performers to determine the how they would interpret the note's duration.  However, he was specific about other attributes of the music, most notably, texture, i.e. how the instruments were to sound as an ensemble.

I particularly like the instruments he used in these two works.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on February 13, 2014, 08:22:29 PM
Thanks for the suggestions! I am enjoying the "String Quartet and Orchestra" right now. I still think that I like "Rothko Chapel" best so far, but it always takes me some time to understand modern music (even though it's my favorite genre) and it's good for me to get recommendations and to discover new things.

For some reason, I am tentative about music that is indeterminate. It sounds silly, but I think that it is from being aware that it is indeterminate as opposed to the resulting sound. I'll have to try and forget about this when I listen to "Durations" next.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: San Antone on February 14, 2014, 05:29:41 AM
Thanks for the suggestions! I am enjoying the "String Quartet and Orchestra" right now. I still think that I like "Rothko Chapel" best so far, but it always takes me some time to understand modern music (even though it's my favorite genre) and it's good for me to get recommendations and to discover new things.

For some reason, I am tentative about music that is indeterminate. It sounds silly, but I think that it is from being aware that it is indeterminate as opposed to the resulting sound. I'll have to try and forget about this when I listen to "Durations" next.

It might help you remove this bias if you consider indeterminate music as an extension of what performers have always done in the liberties they employ as they interpret a score.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on February 14, 2014, 08:49:55 AM
Morton Feldman - String Quartet & Orchestra

https://www.youtube.com/v/CQ3QK4OjAM8

https://www.youtube.com/v/rtwh2oj_9dM

Huh, where does that come from? I recall no recording...
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: not edward on February 14, 2014, 08:51:11 AM
Huh, where does that come from? I recall no recording...
There was one on Hat Hut issued in the late '90s, I think (I've had it for a very long time now).
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on February 14, 2014, 08:51:56 AM
I think Xenakis and Feldman are the exact same coin, different faces. They seemed to be friendly, and seemed to understand each others' musical purpose perfectly. The antidote for Xenakis is Feldman, and vice versa.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on February 14, 2014, 08:52:59 AM
There was one on Hat Hut issued in the late '90s, I think (I've had it for a very long time now).

Wow, have NEVER seen that one. huh... who are the participants?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: not edward on February 14, 2014, 10:34:32 AM
Wow, have NEVER seen that one. huh... who are the participants?
Pellegrini Qt/RSO Frankfurt/Lucas Vis

http://www.discogs.com/Morton-Feldman-Radio-Sinfonie-Orchester-Frankfurt-Conducted-By-Lucas-Vis-Atlantis/release/1132236
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: UB on February 14, 2014, 03:28:21 PM
If you want to learn about Feldman and his work, as well as being able to listen to recordings from time to time, I suggest you bookmark this page… http://www.cnvill.net/mfhome.htm
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on March 14, 2014, 01:39:56 PM
Listening to "Rothko Chapel" now. Has anyone noticed the Debussy quote in the fourth movement (from "Sirenes", the third of the "Trois Nocturnes")? It happens a few times, but most prominently at 21:10
http://www.youtube.com/v/1ZZ0DYIkaP8
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on March 15, 2014, 08:34:51 PM
Listening to "Rothko Chapel" now. Has anyone noticed the Debussy quote in the fourth movement (from "Sirenes", the third of the "Trois Nocturnes")? It happens a few times, but most prominently at 21:10
http://www.youtube.com/v/1ZZ0DYIkaP8

Haven't noticed but am delighted to see you're enjoying my suggestion of Rothko Chapel so much. It's my favorite Feldman and the only one I return to in any kind of frequency. It has enough variety in the music to keep me interested and it's sonorities are just otherworldly beautiful.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on March 16, 2014, 06:52:33 AM
I love this piece. If you like it, you'd probably like "Piano and String Quartet" and/or "Madame Press Died Last Week at Ninety" as well. Then again, you seem to have conquered a lot of territory in terms of listening so I'd guess that you've probably heard these already.

So far I think I like Feldman's style more than I like his actual music (if that makes any sense whatsoever), though I'm sure that I will continue to appreciate more and more of his work as time goes on. Amidst such a noisy musical era, I love how he has the audacity to write music that verges on the inaudible. It's almost like he's being the most avant-garde of him all.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Artem on March 16, 2014, 07:43:32 AM
I think Feldman's piano works are my favourite. There are many gems in all periods of his piano composing.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on March 16, 2014, 08:02:04 AM
I love this piece. If you like it, you'd probably like "Piano and String Quartet" and/or "Madame Press Died Last Week at Ninety" as well. Then again, you seem to have conquered a lot of territory in terms of listening so I'd guess that you've probably heard these already.

So far I think I like Feldman's style more than I like his actual music (if that makes any sense whatsoever), though I'm sure that I will continue to appreciate more and more of his work as time goes on. Amidst such a noisy musical era, I love how he has the audacity to write music that verges on the inaudible. It's almost like he's being the most avant-garde of him all.

I think my problem with Feldman in general is the fact that there is no development in his music. It's just so static and being a former percussionist, it drives me crazy that there's just no rhythm! Anyway, the very reason I dislike his music is also the same reason why people enjoy him. I do enjoy Rothko Chapel and also For Franz Kline. I still need to listen to The Viola In My Life.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on April 02, 2014, 04:48:46 AM
This is music just blows me away.
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/010/MI0001010664.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on April 02, 2014, 05:51:12 AM
This is music just blows me away.
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/010/MI0001010664.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
I need to listen to this again. I remember not liking it that much, but I think that I've gotten more used to Feldman's style since then.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Ken B on April 02, 2014, 07:00:28 AM
I love this piece. If you like it, you'd probably like "Piano and String Quartet" and/or "Madame Press Died Last Week at Ninety" as well. Then again, you seem to have conquered a lot of territory in terms of listening so I'd guess that you've probably heard these already.

So far I think I like Feldman's style more than I like his actual music (if that makes any sense whatsoever), though I'm sure that I will continue to appreciate more and more of his work as time goes on. Amidst such a noisy musical era, I love how he has the audacity to write music that verges on the inaudible. It's almost like he's being the most avant-garde of him all.

This makes total sense to me as do John's remarks. I like forward motion in music. I might go as far as to say that's the most important aspect. It is of course impossible to define! But you can sense it: meolody, harmony, rhythm, development, it's the essence of good minimalism. But I find it a lot more in Madame Press than most MF.

This seems a good spot to push one of my pet pieces, KMH by Lubomyr Melnyck, a Canadian who went to my university. This is a scratchy upload of a vinyl, the piece is availble in a spotless cd transfer. I programmed this on radio several times. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gSeRD2fyoE
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on April 02, 2014, 10:44:43 AM
What's missing from the Feldman Discography?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on April 02, 2014, 12:15:14 PM
What's missing from the Feldman Discography?
His last chamber piece is very hard to get a hold of: Piano, Violin, Viola, Cello (1987) - I think that's the title. 
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: San Antone on April 02, 2014, 12:17:00 PM
His last chamber piece is very hard to get a hold of: Piano, Violin, Viola, Cello (1987) - I think that's the title.

If you just want to hear it ...

https://www.youtube.com/v/JtFbOFHVL1U
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on April 02, 2014, 12:22:42 PM
If you just want to hear it ...

https://www.youtube.com/v/JtFbOFHVL1U
Thanks so much. Someone else in another thread also pointed this out. I have a sort of neurotic need to have sound files of music. I don't know why since the link is perfectly good at home or on my phone as well.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on April 02, 2014, 12:27:24 PM
Thanks so much. Someone else in another thread also pointed this out. I have a sort of neurotic need to have sound files of music. I don't know why since the link is perfectly good at home or on my phone as well.
You can do what I did: http://www.youtube-mp3.org/

;)

Unless you want to pay $150 for the CD, that's the only option as of now. I don't know why this particular one is so difficult to find.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on April 02, 2014, 12:30:13 PM
You can do what I did: http://www.youtube-mp3.org/

;)

Unless you want to pay $150 for the CD, that's the only option as of now. I don't know why this particular one is so difficult to find.
Hmm...I was not able to get this to work. It says error due to copyright issues.   
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on April 02, 2014, 12:57:51 PM
Thanks so much. Someone else in another thread also pointed this out. I have a sort of neurotic need to have sound files of music. I don't know why since the link is perfectly good at home or on my phone as well.

Here, let me dissuade you- it's such a dreary piece next to Piano and String Quartet.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on April 02, 2014, 01:00:52 PM
Here, let me dissuade you- it's such a dreary piece next to Piano and String Quartet.
But sometimes I like dreary!  :)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on April 02, 2014, 01:07:03 PM
But sometimes I like dreary!  :)

Well, if you like For Samuel Beckett, then you'll like this, same procedure and tone range (same as Clarinet and String Quartet, too- I just don't like these particular pieces because they use the same 'way'. The other way was the more melodic one, like Piano and String Quartet (notice there's only one violin missing, but the two pieces sound very different... in Feldman terms, that is!).

I used to have the HatHut cd of the piece in question- isn't there now an available rival?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on April 02, 2014, 01:09:42 PM
Well, if you like For Samuel Beckett, then you'll like this, same procedure and tone range (same as Clarinet and String Quartet, too- I just don't like these particular pieces because they use the same 'way'. The other way was the more melodic one, like Piano and String Quartet (notice there's only one violin missing, but the two pieces sound very different... in Feldman terms, that is!).

I used to have the HatHut cd of the piece in question- isn't there now an available rival?

For me, the characteristic quality of the "Piano and String Quartet" is the combination of the slowly-rolled piano chords and the string accompaniments almost acting like overtones (not that they are actually overtones, but that's the effect I feel it has).
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on April 02, 2014, 03:28:37 PM
For me, the characteristic quality of the "Piano and String Quartet" is the combination of the slowly-rolled piano chords and the string accompaniments almost acting like overtones (not that they are actually overtones, but that's the effect I feel it has).

But in that roll, there is a repeated melody,... which i do not find in Piano, Violin, Viola, Cello. Y'know what I mean? The first one is more like Triadic Memories, and the second is more like Bunita Marcus. I've always liked the first style better, but...
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: 7/4 on April 02, 2014, 03:45:04 PM
For me, the characteristic quality of the "Piano and String Quartet" is the combination of the slowly-rolled piano chords and the string accompaniments almost acting like overtones (not that they are actually overtones, but that's the effect I feel it has).

An analysis of Morton Feldman's "Piano and string quartet"
by Frank Sani:

http://www.cnvill.net/mfsani2.htm (http://www.cnvill.net/mfsani2.htm)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on April 03, 2014, 12:53:22 PM
Does anyone have both recordings of the Violin Concerto, Widmann and Faust? Wergo's sound lately has been pretty sumptuousm and the ECM sample didn't sound as up-front as I might have liked? Anyone?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Artem on April 03, 2014, 06:20:03 PM
I have Widmann's Violina and Orchestra and I personally don't have a problem with its sound. But I'm not an expert.

Piano, Violin, Viola, Cello used to be available on BVHAAST web-site http://wbk.home.xs4all.nl/bvhaastwinkel.html (http://wbk.home.xs4all.nl/bvhaastwinkel.html), but it not any more, unfortunately. Hopefully, HatHut will reissue it soon as it is indicated in their upcoming releases section: http://www.hathut.com/upcoming (http://www.hathut.com/upcoming). I haven't heard that piece yet.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on April 04, 2014, 07:27:00 AM
The consensus seems to be that Faust may be a little more intense, and that her orchestral support has a more "aggressive" edge (with Feldman, you can either bias the 'mellow' aspect, or the 'creepy/aggressive' aspect- know what I mean?). The 'live' Wergo recording, was criticized for having a bit of "extraneous noise and audience", which, certainly, one could do without.

However, there is a sample of the Premiere, with Zukovsky conducted by none other than Cristobal Halffter, and that version sounds really intense- surely one can hear the mellow/aggressive distinction between Widmann (also on YT) and Zukovsky?

Still, if one had no knowledge of the other two, Widmann's sounds fine in its own context. I'll obviously have to go with her anyway, since Faust is already pretty expensive, and Zukovsky is unreleased.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on April 04, 2014, 02:44:52 PM
But in that roll, there is a repeated melody,... which i do not find in Piano, Violin, Viola, Cello. Y'know what I mean? The first one is more like Triadic Memories, and the second is more like Bunita Marcus. I've always liked the first style better, but...
Oops, missed this post. Absolutely -- the roll gives the listener (or, at least, me) more to hang on to. There are also those suspenseful sections with the solo cello harmonics...

The two pieces are definitely different. I think that one reason I like Feldman so much (also one reason I like Ravel so much) is that he makes such beauty out of blatant textbook-dissonances.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on April 05, 2014, 08:29:10 AM
I love how he is able to make the weirdest dissonances sound so delicate & beautiful...
This hits the nail on the head for me, especially in Coptic Light. How does he do it? One piece I don't have is the piano trio (just called "trio"). I see Takahashi (et al.) has a recording of it. It hasn't been mentioned recently.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on April 05, 2014, 08:33:31 AM
This hits the nail on the head for me, especially in Coptic Light. How does he do it? One piece I don't have is the piano trio (just called "trio"). I see Takahashi (et al.) has a recording of it. It hasn't been mentioned recently.
That's it -- I need to hear "Coptic Light" again. Today!
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Ken B on April 05, 2014, 05:20:28 PM
I think that one reason I like Feldman so much (also one reason I like Ravel so much) is that he makes such beauty out of blatant textbook-dissonances.

Seems connected to your (IMO sensible) aversion to dodecaphonists, who generally do no such thing.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on April 05, 2014, 05:40:46 PM
Seems connected to your (IMO sensible) aversion to dodecaphonists, who generally do no such thing.
Seems to make sense in this context (someone was posting these great quotes from Steven Reich in the listening thread):

"German romanticism was dying and he [Schoenberg] was the beginning of its death." Feldman certainly seems like the anti-romantic.

This leads me to this interesting quote:
"I don’t have a Romantic bone in my body!  I’m not interested in any music from Josef Haydn to Wagner.  If it all disappeared tomorrow morning I wouldn’t even know it!  My interest in Western music begins in synagogue chant, goes up to Johann Sebastian Bach, then jumps to Debussy, jazz, and the present." - Steven Reich
So do the Feldman fans here appreciate Reich? What's the next move from Feldman? And who else writes quiet music?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Artem on April 05, 2014, 05:52:31 PM
Maybe Jacob Ullmann - http://www.edition-rz.de/3359-107,2,0.html (http://www.edition-rz.de/3359-107,2,0.html) ? His music is rather quiet.

For me, Feldman is best first and foremost with piano works, then with his chamber music and then with orchestral pieces.

Since Trio has been mentioned, I should say that I don't like it as much. I find Crippled Symmetry, which is another work for three players, more interesting.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: petrarch on April 05, 2014, 05:53:49 PM
Seems connected to your (IMO sensible) aversion to dodecaphonists, who generally do no such thing.

Seems too quick a non sequitur, as there is nothing preventing someone from enjoying Feldman and the serialists very deeply, while still finding some interest in the minimalists (e.g. me, just to be clear and to give a concrete example).
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on April 05, 2014, 05:56:13 PM
Maybe Jacob Ullmann - http://www.edition-rz.de/3359-107,2,0.html (http://www.edition-rz.de/3359-107,2,0.html) ? His music is rather quiet.

For me, Feldman is best first and foremost with piano works, then with his chamber music and then with orchestral pieces.

Since Trio has been mentioned, I should say that I don't like it as much. I find Crippled Symmetry, which is another work for three players, more interesting.
Thanks for the recommendation. The samples sound great!
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on April 05, 2014, 06:33:06 PM
No one ever said if we had any gaping holes in the Discography... anyone? I see most everything now, what am I missing?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on April 05, 2014, 07:00:52 PM
Seems to make sense in this context (someone was posting these great quotes from Steven Reich in the listening thread):

"German romanticism was dying and he [Schoenberg] was the beginning of its death." Feldman certainly seems like the anti-romantic.

This leads me to this interesting quote:
"I don’t have a Romantic bone in my body!  I’m not interested in any music from Josef Haydn to Wagner.  If it all disappeared tomorrow morning I wouldn’t even know it!  My interest in Western music begins in synagogue chant, goes up to Johann Sebastian Bach, then jumps to Debussy, jazz, and the present." - Steven Reich
So do the Feldman fans here appreciate Reich? What's the next move from Feldman? And who else writes quiet music?
I really like Reich. His "Music for 18 Musicians" and "The Desert Music" are great pieces. Have you heard either of these?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on April 06, 2014, 09:28:06 AM
I really like Reich. His "Music for 18 Musicians" and "The Desert Music" are great pieces. Have you heard either of these?

If Reich disappeared tomorrow morning...

 the Bella Abzug of Composers.

Don't get me started on the whole New York Cartel. ::)

Otherwise, maybe there's a piece or two by him... but no more!! haha
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on April 06, 2014, 09:50:22 AM
My obsessiveness gets the better of me: I've been listening to only Feldman for a week now. Today I was listening to Crippled Symmetry and Trio. I don't know what it is exactly about Feldman. Like today with CS, there was a while where I was, like, feeling echoes of the negative pronouncements: OK, finally, this is just random stuff. It's acoustic beeps and blips. But before I know it, something in the music hooks me and I'm back to: this really has some magic to it. Feldman manages to be conceptually novel and, perhaps, in the artistic fashion of his time, yet he remains musical. So far my favorite pieces are: Piano and Quintet, Rothko, Coptic light, Crippled, Trio and Palais. I've yet to break into Violin and Orchestra.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on April 09, 2014, 08:48:20 PM
(http://cburrell.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/feldman-sq2.jpg)
Listened to the first four parts so far. Marvelous music. Only a little over 5 hours to go!
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on April 10, 2014, 04:56:54 AM
My obsessiveness gets the better of me: I've been listening to only Feldman for a week now. Today I was listening to Crippled Symmetry and Trio. I don't know what it is exactly about Feldman. Like today with CS, there was a while where I was, like, feeling echoes of the negative pronouncements: OK, finally, this is just random stuff. It's acoustic beeps and blips. But before I know it, something in the music hooks me and I'm back to: this really has some magic to it. Feldman manages to be conceptually novel and, perhaps, in the artistic fashion of his time, yet he remains musical. So far my favorite pieces are: Piano and Quintet, Rothko, Coptic light, Crippled, Trio and Palais. I've yet to break into Violin and Orchestra.
You sound like the type of listener that I am! When I first discovered Bartok, it was almost nothing but Bartok for the next six years (not entirely, of course, but it seems like it in retrospect). The result: I'd say that I'm an unofficial expert on Bartok (who wouldn't be?), but that's nothing to brag about since I missed out on so much and now I am playing catch-up!  :(

I still need to hear Feldman's "The Viola in my Life" and "Crippled Symmetries". I don't plan on hearing the 2nd string quartet anytime soon. I've heard parts of it and wasn't implored to listen to more, but of course that isn't always a fair way of judging music.

Seems to make sense in this context (someone was posting these great quotes from Steven Reich in the listening thread):

"German romanticism was dying and he [Schoenberg] was the beginning of its death." Feldman certainly seems like the anti-romantic.

This leads me to this interesting quote:
"I don’t have a Romantic bone in my body!  I’m not interested in any music from Josef Haydn to Wagner.  If it all disappeared tomorrow morning I wouldn’t even know it!  My interest in Western music begins in synagogue chant, goes up to Johann Sebastian Bach, then jumps to Debussy, jazz, and the present." - Steven Reich
So do the Feldman fans here appreciate Reich? What's the next move from Feldman? And who else writes quiet music?
Are you familiar with Ligeti? Try his "Clocks and Clouds" for 12-part women's chorus and orchestra. I wrote about it in my notes section (in the "Classical Music for Beginners" sub-board). It is a stunningly beautiful piece. You might enjoy "Lontano" and "Lux Aeterna" as well. It isn't all quiet, but it is beauty made from some strange dissonances. I'm curious what you think.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 10, 2014, 05:47:24 AM
...What's the next move from Feldman?...

Maybe someone has pointed this out, but "Uncle Morty" passed away just before I arrived in Buffalo. (No cause and effect there, that was just how I found out, myself.)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on April 10, 2014, 06:22:31 AM
You sound like the type of listener that I am! When I first discovered Bartok, it was almost nothing but Bartok for the next six years (not entirely, of course, but it seems like it in retrospect). The result: I'd say that I'm an unofficial expert on Bartok (who wouldn't be?), but that's nothing to brag about since I missed out on so much and now I am playing catch-up!  :(

I still need to hear Feldman's "The Viola in my Life" and "Crippled Symmetries". I don't plan on hearing the 2nd string quartet anytime soon. I've heard parts of it and wasn't implored to listen to more, but of course that isn't always a fair way of judging music.
Are you familiar with Ligeti? Try his "Clocks and Clouds" for 12-part women's chorus and orchestra. I wrote about it in my notes section (in the "Classical Music for Beginners" sub-board). It is a stunningly beautiful piece. You might enjoy "Lontano" and "Lux Aeterna" as well. It isn't all quiet, but it is beauty made from some strange dissonances. I'm curious what you think.
Thanks a lot for these recommendations. I will give them a go. Crippled symmetries is one of my favorite of Feldman's. I feel like Feldman is showing me an entirely different way of experiencing music. I'm certain that it wouldn't have done anything for me just a year ago: right composer at the right time in my life.
I have to say I'm very much enjoying String Quartet II in the same way I enjoy Crippled. I can't really put it into words adequately. There is just so much inspiration in his way of exploring sound possibilities.
I think Feldman is the answer to his own question:
 "Do we have anything in music for example that really wipes everything out? That just cleans everything away?" 
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Artem on April 10, 2014, 05:41:01 PM
Which performance of the Cippled Symmetry are you listening to?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on April 11, 2014, 12:16:20 AM
Which performance of the Cippled Symmetry are you listening to?
The California Ear Unit
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on April 11, 2014, 09:00:43 AM
Listening to "Crippled Symmetry" right now. I like it. In some sections, the repeated four notes in the flute are nearly the same as the alto flute solo that opens Varese's "Ameriques". I wonder if this is an intentional quote or if it is a coincidence.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: springrite on April 11, 2014, 09:05:59 AM
(http://cburrell.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/feldman-sq2.jpg)
Listened to the first four parts so far. Marvelous music. Only a little over 5 hours to go!

I have yet to open this.

I am waiting till I am on a desert island and have all the time in the world before I listen to it for the first time.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Octave on April 11, 2014, 08:57:34 PM
I have yet to open this.

I am waiting till I am on a desert island and have all the time in the world before I listen to it for the first time.

Any given music has a huge range of effects on different people, or the same person; but I wonder if right now would be the time in your life when this music might be most useful?  Of course, not all in one shot, probably.  But yes...I guess baffling the duration aspect is kind of a violence to the music.  I tend to enjoy this violence and commit it regularly against music like this, as long as I can sometimes/eventually make time for the "whole"---such that it ever is.
I find a comforting impersonality (?) in much of Feldman's music of this period.  Like watching (but not 'observing'?) a natural process....except probably not in the sense that we talk about 'process music'.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on April 12, 2014, 06:00:47 AM
Like watching (but not 'observing'?) a natural process....except probably not in the sense that we talk about 'process music'.
Ah! You've put into words what I couldn't!
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on April 12, 2014, 02:27:46 PM
milk, aside from the Ligeti I recommended there is another guy you should definitely check out: John Luther Adams (not the more famous John Coolidge Adams, though he's good, too). Luther Adams was a huge Feldman appreciator and was further influenced by Alaskan landscapes (where he resides currently). Don't ask me about specifics, though, because I need to check him out as well! The ensemble choices are very similar and his titles include things like "In a Treeless Place, Only Snow", "Inuksuit", and other Alaskan-themed phrases. I completely forgot to mention his name before.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: lescamil on April 12, 2014, 03:23:16 PM
Luther Adams was a huge Feldman appreciator and was further influenced by Alaskan landscapes (where he resides currently).

That he was. If you want to hear this in evidence, listen to John Luther Adams' Strange and Sacred Noise. The fifth movement is very, very much like Feldman with it's use of subtly moving clusters and soft attacks juxtaposed with silence. It gets quite loud but still keeps up the Feldmanian soundworld well.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on April 12, 2014, 04:13:04 PM
milk, aside from the Ligeti I recommended there is another guy you should definitely check out: John Luther Adams (not the more famous John Coolidge Adams, though he's good, too). Luther Adams was a huge Feldman appreciator and was further influenced by Alaskan landscapes (where he resides currently). Don't ask me about specifics, though, because I need to check him out as well! The ensemble choices are very similar and his titles include things like "In a Treeless Place, Only Snow", "Inuksuit", and other Alaskan-themed phrases. I completely forgot to mention his name before.
Thanks! I will give it a go!
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on April 12, 2014, 10:19:58 PM
milk, aside from the Ligeti I recommended there is another guy you should definitely check out: John Luther Adams (not the more famous John Coolidge Adams, though he's good, too). Luther Adams was a huge Feldman appreciator and was further influenced by Alaskan landscapes (where he resides currently). Don't ask me about specifics, though, because I need to check him out as well! The ensemble choices are very similar and his titles include things like "In a Treeless Place, Only Snow", "Inuksuit", and other Alaskan-themed phrases. I completely forgot to mention his name before.
The samples are really impressive. Thanks for this recommendation. I will wait until the end of the week and then make some purchases. After that, I'll post my impressions on the composers thread. Thanks!!
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on April 13, 2014, 04:00:58 AM
The samples are really impressive. Thanks for this recommendation. I will wait until the end of the week and then make some purchases. After that, I'll post my impressions on the composers thread. Thanks!!
Happy to hear that you like it! Now I have good reason to explore some more of his music.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on April 13, 2014, 09:24:31 AM
Anyone have the 'Orchestra; disc on Mode? And?,,,
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on April 13, 2014, 01:16:49 PM
Why Patterns?
Crippled Symmetry
For Philip Guston
For Christian Wolff


Which do you prefer out of Feldman's 4 Flute Sonatas,a nd why? I like FPG for the initial melodic cell, byt WP? for the length. I would like a comination of the two.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Artem on April 13, 2014, 02:01:55 PM
Orchestra is my favourite Feldman CD from Mode out of the ones that I have.

I haven't heard For Christian Wolff, but i think For Philip Guston is really beautiful. I've only heard it once in its entierty, but that was great. Crippled Symmetry is good, but I prefer those Feldman's works which are like a maze. Crippled Symmetry starts out like you're walking in the maze, but in the end you find an exist. It works better for me when that mystery remains througout the composition, and when I'm sort of trapped in it.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on April 13, 2014, 02:27:51 PM
Why Patterns?
Crippled Symmetry
For Philip Guston
For Christian Wolff

Crippled Symmetry. I haven't yet heard "For Christian Wolff", though.

Which do you prefer out of Feldman's 4 Flute Sonatas,a nd why? I like FPG for the initial melodic cell, byt WP? for the length. I would like a comination of the two.
One Feldman combo, coming right up! Anything else you'd like with that?  :D
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on April 13, 2014, 07:50:51 PM
Why Patterns?
Crippled Symmetry
For Philip Guston
For Christian Wolff


Which do you prefer out of Feldman's 4 Flute Sonatas,a nd why? I like FPG for the initial melodic cell, byt WP? for the length. I would like a comination of the two.
I also like Crippled Symmetry. A friend of mine seems to think Feldman is all desolation. I think not at all. CS shows that. As Octave write, it's like watching a natural process. This piece brings to mind National Geographic the bees and the birds! It's like a meditation on nature.   
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on April 13, 2014, 07:56:07 PM
I really get to thinking how this Brooklyn Jewish-ghetto boy, just like my parents, could have made something so Zen and so much about natural beauty. Well, it was a generation that produced quite a few Bu-Jews, (not just like mine!).
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: torut on April 13, 2014, 10:12:59 PM
I really get to thinking how this Brooklyn Jewish-ghetto boy, just like my parents, could have made something so Zen and so much about natural beauty. Well, it was a generation that produced quite a few Bu-Jews, (not just like mine!).
According to Nyman's book Experimental Music, Feldman was not interested in Zen.
Quote
Feldman has denied any interest in Zen, which to him is just another 'think system', no better and no worse than any other (he once said 'my whole debt to Oriental culture is Chinese food').
But, of course, being naturally Zen and having an interest in or studying Zen are different things.  :)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Octave on April 13, 2014, 11:30:46 PM
Crippled Symmetry starts out like you're walking in the maze, but in the end you find an exist.

This is the greatest typo ever.  Whether it's a typo or not! 

I think I have heard three recording of CS, and for whatever reason the EAR Unit one was the most vivid for me.  There were moments where I thought the overtone series was creeping out of the flute to get me.  No idea if this was the performance or my own attunedness.  Anyone who has not heard this piece could surely do worse than to acquire this recording.  One of these recordings (a live recording from Buffalo, iirc, by the musicians who worked most closely with Feldman himself....toured with him: Blum/Vigeland/Williams) was actually released by a one-time/sometime member of GMG, by his Frozen Reeds label.  For some reason the performers' credit ('The Feldman Soloists') cracks me up.

You are not the first I've heard praise the ORCHESTRA (Mode) disc.  I need it.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on April 14, 2014, 01:00:02 AM
According to Nyman's book Experimental Music, Feldman was not interested in Zen.But, of course, being naturally Zen and having an interest in or studying Zen are different things.  :)
Right. Interesting. I see he was friends with abstract expressionists like Barnett Newman. I thought these guys had a connection to Zen but now I don't see references to it on a web search. Hmm....I thought it was part of the spirit of that time. Anyway, I don't know quite how to put this. There is something that calls for a kind of presence in experiencing this music. Maybe I want to say that the music is not linear in the way other music is... Well, perhaps someone else will find a more coherent way of putting this.   
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on April 14, 2014, 06:24:52 AM
Here you guys are trying to find something spiritual in Feldman, when, frankly, all he is doing is documenting the sound of him smoking cigs!! IIn... Out... Wooosh... In... Out... Woosh...

t's THAT simple!!
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: 7/4 on April 14, 2014, 10:06:19 AM
Here you guys are trying to find something spiritual in Feldman, when, frankly, all he is doing is documenting the sound of him smoking cigs!! IIn... Out... Wooosh... In... Out... Woosh...

t's THAT simple!!

cynic!
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on April 15, 2014, 04:32:39 AM
Here you guys are trying to find something spiritual in Feldman, when, frankly, all he is doing is documenting the sound of him smoking cigs!! IIn... Out... Wooosh... In... Out... Woosh...

t's THAT simple!!
Ha! Yes, well it could just be that! That could be an achievement also!
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on April 16, 2014, 04:31:56 AM
...continuing my fascination with Feldman. Today was the first time I sat down with Violin and Orchestra. I'm listening to Widmann. This piece is mysterious and full of imagination. I never get bored with it or tired of it and it's a somewhat different experience than the other Feldman pieces I've been listening to. Yes, happily, I'm still intrigued.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on April 17, 2014, 05:03:52 AM
...continuing my fascination with Feldman. Today was the first time I sat down with Violin and Orchestra. I'm listening to Widmann. This piece is mysterious and full of imagination. I never get bored with it or tired of it and it's a somewhat different experience than the other Feldman pieces I've been listening to. Yes, happily, I'm still intrigued.
Not to be pushy, but did you check out the Ligeti I recommended? I'm interested in knowing what you think, especially of "Clocks and Clouds". Some of the sounds remind me of those in Feldman's "Rothko Chapel", but fuller and more dramatic (as opposed to, well, sparse and dramatic -- I guess a more suspenseful type of drama that I associate with Feldman).

There is a phenomenal performance of "Rothko Chapel" on YouTube you might want to check out. Besides being a wonderful performance, it is also a very high quality video with nice film editing (you know, different shots of players).
http://www.youtube.com/v/9wHuh1yR0z8
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on April 17, 2014, 11:13:13 AM
Orchestra is my favourite Feldman CD from Mode out of the ones that I have.

Just arrived. have the 'Ecstasy of the Moment' to compare 'Voice and Instruments' I and II. Oooo... time to strap in!
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on April 18, 2014, 02:26:41 PM
Not to be pushy, but did you check out the Ligeti I recommended? I'm interested in knowing what you think, especially of "Clocks and Clouds". Some of the sounds remind me of those in Feldman's "Rothko Chapel", but fuller and more dramatic (as opposed to, well, sparse and dramatic -- I guess a more suspenseful type of drama that I associate with Feldman).

There is a phenomenal performance of "Rothko Chapel" on YouTube you might want to check out. Besides being a wonderful performance, it is also a very high quality video with nice film editing (you know, different shots of players).
http://www.youtube.com/v/9wHuh1yR0z8
Oh. I still need to check it out. I think I'll look for it today. I'll look at the link also!
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on April 18, 2014, 02:55:21 PM
Orchestra is my favourite Feldman CD from Mode out of the ones that I have.

'Orchestra' (Mode)

Yes, now it's MY fav! I love the selection of pieces (it seems all the rest of the bigger pieces are on Mode's Barton Workshop and Turfan Ensemble discs). The early 'Intersections' is very random sounding, almost like the middle of Xenakis's 'Metastaseis'. 'Orchestra' has a lot of interesting bits in its 18 minutes; I like the 4-5 piano chords half way through- then gone! There's definitely a painterly palette thing going on here,- it's not as active as 'Violin and Orchestra', more like 'Piano and Orchestra'. There's a lot to compare with Xenakis, I think, just the process: both Composers are creating 'Objects' in Time/Space, vast, inscrutable monoliths, slabs that are going nowhere fast. At least, I think they were friendly...

THE FELDMAN ESSENTIALS

1) 'Orchestra' (Mode)
2) 'The Ecstasy of the Moment' (Etcetera)
3) 4 Concertos (CPO)
    HONORABLE: Coptic Light (Argo)

4) Piano and String Quartet (Nonesuch)

5) For Philip Guston (Bridge) OR String Quartet II (Mode DVD)

and then, my 'Single Disc Feldman' recommendations:

Triadic Memories (Takahashi) @60mins.!
Trio (HatHut)
Patterns in a Chromatic Field/Untitled... (Attaca;Tzadik)
For John Cage (Zukofsky)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on April 18, 2014, 04:35:12 PM
'Orchestra' (Mode)

Yes, now it's MY fav! I love the selection of pieces (it seems all the rest of the bigger pieces are on Mode's Barton Workshop and Turfan Ensemble discs). The early 'Intersections' is very random sounding, almost like the middle of Xenakis's 'Metastaseis'. 'Orchestra' has a lot of interesting bits in its 18 minutes; I like the 4-5 piano chords half way through- then gone! There's definitely a painterly palette thing going on here,- it's not as active as 'Violin and Orchestra', more like 'Piano and Orchestra'. There's a lot to compare with Xenakis, I think, just the process: both Composers are creating 'Objects' in Time/Space, vast, inscrutable monoliths, slabs that are going nowhere fast. At least, I think they were friendly...

THE FELDMAN ESSENTIALS

1) 'Orchestra' (Mode)
2) 'The Ecstasy of the Moment' (Etcetera)
3) 4 Concertos (CPO)
    HONORABLE: Coptic Light (Argo)

4) Piano and String Quartet (Nonesuch)

5) For Philip Guston (Bridge) OR String Quartet II (Mode DVD)

and then, my 'Single Disc Feldman' recommendations:

Triadic Memories (Takahashi) @60mins.!
Trio (HatHut)
Patterns in a Chromatic Field/Untitled... (Attaca;Tzadik)
For John Cage (Zukofsky)
Great! I've just downloaded Orchestra and Patterns, neither of which I had previously. Maybe I need to find the Ligeti thread...Clocks and Clouds sounds great on youtube but I can't locate a download of it. I may need to order the CD. I need to figure out Ligeti because some of the stuff I've tried here and there didn't grab me (like the horn Trio). I have a recording of his etudes also and while I see there is genius there I just haven't been deeply attracted to it. But Clocks and Clouds is fantastic. Thanks EigenUser!
Well, I guess I need to give Xenakis a shot.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Ken B on April 18, 2014, 05:24:34 PM
...continuing my fascination with Feldman. Today was the first time I sat down with Violin and Orchestra. I'm listening to Widmann. This piece is mysterious and full of imagination. I never get bored with it or tired of it and it's a somewhat different experience than the other Feldman pieces I've been listening to. Yes, happily, I'm still intrigued.
He's always interesting. I don't always like it but I never feel, well enough of him. I'll continue to sample occasionally.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Artem on April 18, 2014, 06:24:11 PM
Very interesting breakdown of the Feldman essentials, snyprrr.
I guess the CPO cd will be among my next future purchases and I hope that The Ecstasy of the Moment gets a reissue someday.

My essentials would be For Bunita Marcus (HatArt) and Triadic Memories (MDG) in pinao solo, Violin and Orchestra and Viola and My Life both on ECM and Mode's Orchestra.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: amw on April 18, 2014, 06:32:52 PM
I might go with Ecstasy of the Moment, Edition RZ s/t, Untitled Composition, Neither (HatArt or Musica Viva, doesn't matter which) and I guess Triadic Memories.

CPO disc is in the listening pile. I'll get around to it at some point.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on April 19, 2014, 05:27:49 AM
Great! I've just downloaded Orchestra and Patterns, neither of which I had previously. Maybe I need to find the Ligeti thread...Clocks and Clouds sounds great on youtube but I can't locate a download of it. I may need to order the CD. I need to figure out Ligeti because some of the stuff I've tried here and there didn't grab me (like the horn Trio). I have a recording of his etudes also and while I see there is genius there I just haven't been deeply attracted to it. But Clocks and Clouds is fantastic. Thanks EigenUser!
Well, I guess I need to give Xenakis a shot.
Glad you like it! I wrote about it (with embedded sound files) on my notes page here: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,22986.0.html . The recording is on Teldec's "The Ligeti Project", volume three:


I never really liked the horn trio very much, but I need to hear it again. The etudes took me a while to warm up to which is odd since most people seem to immediately like many of them. From my experiences, even people who don't care for modern classical have enjoyed them (especially the case with jazz fans and the 4th etude "Fanfares", which also happens to be my favorite). But, I do like most of them by now. His "Clocks and Clouds" is the first piece of his that I heard and it remains to be my favorite. Try his "Lontano" as well. It wasn't as immediately accessible as "Clocks and Clouds", but it is similar. I still don't really like "Atmospheres" very much. It's okay, but I think that it's his least-developed piece in his early style.

Here's the Ligeti thread: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,25.0.html

I really wish that it was called something cool. You know, like "Ligeti's Living Room", etc...  ;D
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on April 19, 2014, 06:20:54 AM
Very interesting breakdown of the Feldman essentials, snyprrr.
I guess the CPO cd will be among my next future purchases and I hope that The Ecstasy of the Moment gets a reissue someday.

My essentials would be For Bunita Marcus (HatArt) and Triadic Memories (MDG) in pinao solo, Violin and Orchestra and Viola and My Life both on ECM and Mode's Orchestra.

How do you like the sonics for MDG's 'Triadic'? He gets a cd to go for 80:46!!! Takahashi's runs for 60:00, and there's a third that runs 75:00. The rest seem to go up by 10 minute intervals, until we get to the lady with the blue cd cover (and maybe Woodward) who go for, about, 140:00.

I'd like to record 'Violin & String Quartet' at half speed to get it on one disc. Hey, if Takahashi can play 'Triadic' at 60mins., them, why not? (what exactly is the CORRECT timing for 'Triadic'?)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 19, 2014, 06:38:34 AM
How do you like the sonics for MDG's 'Triadic'? He gets a cd to go for 80:46!!!

I remember thinking highly of it . . . I shall listen afresh now.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Artem on April 19, 2014, 08:55:35 AM
I also enjoyed the sound of Triadic Memories on MDG.

The one recording of Triadic Memories that I disliked was this one (It is just so heavy and loud):



I also have the latest Schleiermacher recording of Feldman compositions on MDG titled "Violin and Piano", and that set has a very nice recording of Piece for four pianos, which I enjoy a lot. And that piece brings me to this CD, which I'd highly recommend:

Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: torut on April 19, 2014, 09:37:42 AM
Right. Interesting. I see he was friends with abstract expressionists like Barnett Newman. I thought these guys had a connection to Zen but now I don't see references to it on a web search. Hmm....I thought it was part of the spirit of that time. Anyway, I don't know quite how to put this. There is something that calls for a kind of presence in experiencing this music. Maybe I want to say that the music is not linear in the way other music is... Well, perhaps someone else will find a more coherent way of putting this.
Hi milk, you may be interested in this book introduced in Cage thread by petrarch. It seems to discuss the influence of Zen on Feldman.

Wonderful book on John Cage. It is a great complement to James Pritchett's.



Quote
Composer John Cage sought the silence of a mind at peace with itself—and found it in Zen Buddhism, a spiritual path that changed both his music and his view of the universe. “Remarkably researched, exquisitely written,” Where the Heart Beats weaves together “a great many threads of cultural history” (Maria Popova, Brain Pickings) to illuminate Cage’s struggle to accept himself and his relationship with choreographer Merce Cunningham. Freed to be his own man, Cage originated exciting experiments that set him at the epicenter of a new avant-garde forming in the 1950s. Robert Rauschenberg, Jasper Johns, Andy Warhol, Yoko Ono, Allan Kaprow, Morton Feldman, and Leo Castelli were among those influenced by his ‘teaching’ and ‘preaching.’ Where the Heart Beats shows the blossoming of Zen in the very heart of American culture.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on April 19, 2014, 09:46:06 AM
I also enjoyed the sound of Triadic Memories on MDG.

The one recording of Triadic Memories that I disliked was this one (It is just so heavy and loud):



That's exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for. Fafchamps recording has been on the radar for decades, and surely I would have gotten it had the opportunity, but I shall gladly strike it off the list! Great!

Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Artem on April 19, 2014, 10:23:57 AM
That recording is actually a new one. He rerecorded the piece in 2010. There's something in the liner notes about the corrected edition of the score and such which appeared after he recorded Triadic Memories for the first time. So maybe the first recording he did is better. I don't knot. But I would definitely not recomend the one from 2010.

Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: petrarch on April 19, 2014, 11:52:31 AM
Hi milk, you may be interested in this book introduced in Cage thread by petrarch. It seems to discuss the influence of Zen on Feldman.

No influence of Zen on Feldman, who showed no great interest in it. There is, however, plenty of what went on between Cage and Feldman, providing good context for how each shaped their music and absorbed other influences--in Feldman's case, his painter friends, mostly, aside from Cage himself. I would argue that Feldman's book is an essential, funny, joy to read and better source for his thinking, however:

Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: 7/4 on April 19, 2014, 01:12:56 PM
Just downloaded this one for E 0,49 on E-music. It has 3 5-star reviews.

(http://images.emusic.com/music/images/album/142/781/14278133/600x600.jpg)

Listening to this for the third time today and really enjoying it. New to me.

There's a version on Col Legno (Isabelle Faust, Bavarian Radio SO, Peter Rundel cond.) that I've never heard.

Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: 7/4 on April 19, 2014, 02:36:27 PM
Flux Quartet ready for full immersion in Feldman’s six-hour String Quartet No. 2

http://newyorkclassicalreview.com/2014/04/flux-quartet-ready-for-full-immersion-in-feldmans-six-hour-string-quartet-no-2/ (http://newyorkclassicalreview.com/2014/04/flux-quartet-ready-for-full-immersion-in-feldmans-six-hour-string-quartet-no-2/)

Quote
The current Flux lineup has appreciable experience with the piece—this will be their third performance since last fall. (The quartet will finish their cycle of the complete Feldman quartets—the first on disc—for Mode with the release, on April 29, of a 2-CD set of the String Quartet No. 1 and the early Three Pieces and Structures. The recording will be available for pre-release purchase at the Armory concert.). - See more at: http://newyorkclassicalreview.com/2014/04/flux-quartet-ready-for-full-immersion-in-feldmans-six-hour-string-quartet-no-2/#sthash.4au0FNsr.dpuf
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: amw on April 19, 2014, 03:11:53 PM
(what exactly is the CORRECT timing for 'Triadic'?)

The score's got no tempo mark so I guess there isn't one. For me 80-90 min seems ideal.

(It also has only two dynamic marks—ppp on page 1, ppppp on page 44. Random trivia fact.)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on April 19, 2014, 03:20:47 PM
That recording is actually a new one. He rerecorded the piece in 2010. There's something in the liner notes about the corrected edition of the score and such which appeared after he recorded Triadic Memories for the first time. So maybe the first recording he did is better. I don't knot. But I would definitely not recomend the one from 2010.

oh, that's interesting

The score's got no tempo mark so I guess there isn't one. For me 80-90 min seems ideal.

(It also has only two dynamic marks—ppp on page 1, ppppp on page 44. Random trivia fact.)

Flux Quartet ready for full immersion in Feldman’s six-hour String Quartet No. 2

http://newyorkclassicalreview.com/2014/04/flux-quartet-ready-for-full-immersion-in-feldmans-six-hour-string-quartet-no-2/ (http://newyorkclassicalreview.com/2014/04/flux-quartet-ready-for-full-immersion-in-feldmans-six-hour-string-quartet-no-2/)


I'm sorry, but reallY? They couldn't get the SQ on one CD, really? Again we have to switch CDs? Really? Again? We have to switch CDs? Again? Really?

Uber disappointed,... AGAIN >:D... at least that's just another expense I can whisk away! $:)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on April 19, 2014, 03:22:46 PM
btw- 'Three Pieces' is available on the Mondriaan cd (Xenakis, Feldman, Cage), and 'Structures' is available on VoxBox. (I forget which is on the Arditti's 'From U.S.A.' disc)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on April 19, 2014, 03:28:15 PM
The only thing that gets me madder than Cage is having to change a disc to continue hearing a Feldman piece. >:D Obviously ruining the whole point of the piece in the first place... how are you supposed to achieve zen when you have to change cds? How? I simply will not even entertain any Feldman music I have to work for.

But seriously, has anyone ever listened to a long Feldman piece on hard drugs? Serious. Hard drugs. MF wasn't an addict, was he? (besides cigs?) I mean, he sort writes the soundtrack to an 8 hour heroin high, doesn't he? brrrooowwwwwwrrrrr   brrrrroooowwwwrrrrrr   brrrrrooowwwwwwrrrrrrr brrrrrrooowwwrrrrr
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: amw on April 19, 2014, 03:39:01 PM
The only thing that gets me madder than Cage is having to change a disc to continue hearing a Feldman piece. >:D

Well....

http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/
https://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/23430/x-lossless-decoder
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: 7/4 on April 19, 2014, 03:42:01 PM
oh, that's interesting

I'm sorry, but reallY? They couldn't get the SQ on one CD, really? Again we have to switch CDs? Really? Again? We have to switch CDs? Again? Really?

Uber disappointed,... AGAIN >:D... at least that's just another expense I can whisk away! $:)

I've been listening to the Flux play SQII on one DVD for 12 years.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on April 19, 2014, 04:46:23 PM
I never really liked the horn trio very much, but I need to hear it again. The etudes took me a while to warm up to which is odd since most people seem to immediately like many of them. From my experiences, even people who don't care for modern classical have enjoyed them (especially the case with jazz fans and the 4th etude "Fanfares", which also happens to be my favorite). But, I do like most of them by now. His "Clocks and Clouds" is the first piece of his that I heard and it remains to be my favorite. Try his "Lontano" as well. It wasn't as immediately accessible as "Clocks and Clouds", but it is similar. I still don't really like "Atmospheres" very much. It's okay, but I think that it's his least-developed piece in his early style.
I might just go for the Ligeti Project box set (5 CDs). It's not too expensive and it has all these pieces on it.
The score's got no tempo mark so I guess there isn't one. For me 80-90 min seems ideal.

(It also has only two dynamic marks—ppp on page 1, ppppp on page 44. Random trivia fact.)
I have Triadic Memories by Sabine Liebner. Hers is just over 2 hours!
Flux Quartet ready for full immersion in Feldman’s six-hour String Quartet No. 2

http://newyorkclassicalreview.com/2014/04/flux-quartet-ready-for-full-immersion-in-feldmans-six-hour-string-quartet-no-2/ (http://newyorkclassicalreview.com/2014/04/flux-quartet-ready-for-full-immersion-in-feldmans-six-hour-string-quartet-no-2/)


This is a really Well written and interesting article. Thanks! Wish I could be there!
No influence of Zen on Feldman, who showed no great interest in it. There is, however, plenty of what went on between Cage and Feldman, providing good context for how each shaped their music and absorbed other influences--in Feldman's case, his painter friends, mostly, aside from Cage himself. I would argue that Feldman's book is an essential, funny, joy to read and better source for his thinking, however:

I just ordered this. Thanks.
So many interesting posts here in the last 24 hours or so!
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Artem on April 20, 2014, 04:32:43 AM
I've been listening to the Flux play SQII on one DVD for 12 years.  :laugh:
Me, too. At least with Mode Records we can expect a DVD-audio release, which the new recording of SQI will probably be.

Also, I would highly welcome transfer of one fo the existing recordings of For Philip Guston to DVD-audio, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on April 20, 2014, 08:50:34 AM
I've been listening to the Flux play SQII on one DVD for 12 years.  :laugh:

Yes, i know, I have to buy my own "Special Feldman Player" just for this, oy vey!

"If I were a rich man, i would have a DVD Player by nooooow..."

".. all day long I'd... listening.. to... Mor-toooon Feld-maaaaan"

Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on April 20, 2014, 08:52:59 AM
Me, too. At least with Mode Records we can expect a DVD-audio release, which the new recording of SQI will probably be.

Also, I would highly welcome transfer of one fo the existing recordings of For Philip Guston to DVD-audio, that's for sure.

But how much over the 80 minute mark is it going to be anyhow,... waaaah! I don't want chaaaange!!!  Do they make DVD BoomBoxes?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on April 26, 2014, 03:34:25 PM
Listening to this today. This music is
fragile
diaphanous
never dull
full of nearly-hidden subtle treasures
mesmerizing
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0000/988/MI0000988299.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
I'm glad I splurged on this.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: springrite on April 26, 2014, 04:18:33 PM
Listening to this today. This music is
fragile
diaphanous
never dull
full of nearly-hidden subtle treasures
mesmerizing
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0000/988/MI0000988299.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
I'm glad I splurged on this.

One of my all time favourite work and recording!
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on May 02, 2014, 09:39:58 AM
milk, Have you heard Takemitsu's "Dream/Window" for orchestra? If not, I think that you'd like it very much. It's like he took Debussy's "Jeux" (my favorite Debussy piece, I'll be the outlier :) ), poured it through a strainer to remove any melodic themes, and wrote using what was left. The result is actually similar to Feldman's "Coptic Light", but it sounds French.
http://www.youtube.com/v/SQG3NyKT9qk
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on May 02, 2014, 02:04:57 PM
milk, Have you heard Takemitsu's "Dream/Window" for orchestra? If not, I think that you'd like it very much. It's like he took Debussy's "Jeux" (my favorite Debussy piece, I'll be the outlier :) ), poured it through a strainer to remove any melodic themes, and wrote using what was left. The result is actually similar to Feldman's "Coptic Light", but it sounds French.
http://www.youtube.com/v/SQG3NyKT9qk
Thanks! I'll give it a try!
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on May 02, 2014, 03:40:48 PM
Just downloaded the FeldmanSays widget for the dashboard  :) (from the first post of the Feldman thread).

Bruce, did you ever end up seeing the 2nd SQ?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: 7/4 on May 02, 2014, 05:10:01 PM
On-Demand Audio: FLUX Quartet Performs Morton Feldman's String Quartet No. 2
Live from the Park Avenue Armory on April 26, 2014

http://www.wqxr.org/#!/story/listen-live-flux-quartet-performs-morton-feldmans-string-quartet-no-2/ (http://www.wqxr.org/#!/story/listen-live-flux-quartet-performs-morton-feldmans-string-quartet-no-2/)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: 7/4 on May 03, 2014, 05:35:43 AM
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/microtonaldave/136feldman_zpscca1ea7c.jpg)

listening to Morton Feldman - Marilyn Nonken plays Triadic Memories

http://www.moderecords.com/catalog/136feldman.html (http://www.moderecords.com/catalog/136feldman.html)

I'm not sure I have 93:48, but I'll try again later if I don't.
And if I do catch it all this morning, I'll probably listen again real soon.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on May 06, 2014, 05:07:34 PM
I just came across a wonderful interview with Feldman. Typical NYC accent, too.

Why did he have to die in the 1980s? :'(
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Ken B on May 06, 2014, 06:10:27 PM
I just came across a wonderful interview with Feldman. Typical NYC accent, too.

Why did he have to die in the 1980s? :'(
<accent>So the Seventies are better maybe? </accent>
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on May 06, 2014, 06:12:17 PM
<accent>So the Seventies are better maybe? </accent>
You don't like Feldman?! :o
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Ken B on May 06, 2014, 06:25:11 PM
You don't like Feldman?! :o
You are not getting the inflexion or the accent ...

Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on May 16, 2014, 12:49:42 AM
Listening to Stephane Ginsburgh's For Bunita Marcus recently and enjoying it much. Hauntingly beautiful music.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Catison on May 28, 2014, 07:04:48 PM
I am going to have the pleasure of hearing For Philip Guston Live in Rothko Chapel this November.  Anyone in the Houston area want to join me?

http://www.dacamera.com/1415season/morton_feldman’s_for_philip_guston
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 29, 2014, 03:09:16 AM
That will be beautiful.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on July 29, 2014, 02:02:59 PM
I came across this yesterday which made me laugh:

At this point, many people give up in frustration. Here is the opening through which Morton Feldman enters, this unlikeliest of composers: a man of 6′, approaching 300 pounds; a non-stop, cigarette-smoking talker with a strong New York accent. Alex Ross described his music this way in The New Yorker issue of June 19, 2006:

    The often noted paradox is that this immense, verbose man wrote music that seldom rose above a whisper. In the noisiest century in history, Feldman chose to be glacially slow and snowily soft. Chords arrive one after another, in seemingly haphazard sequence, interspersed with silences… In its ritual stillness, this body of work abandons the syntax of Western music… Legend has it that after one group of players had crept their way as quietly as possible through a score of his, Feldman barked, “It’s too fuckin’ loud, and it’s too fuckin’ fast.”

From here: http://drgeraldstein.wordpress.com/tag/morton-feldman/
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: ibanezmonster on July 30, 2014, 06:37:30 AM
".. all day long I'd... listening.. to... Mor-toooon Feld-maaaaan"
You mean:

morrrrr.



ton.



feeeeld.
































maaaan.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on August 01, 2014, 06:03:08 AM
I just came across this on eBay -- Feldman's Piano, Violin, Viola, Cello. I don't want it (love the piece, but I'm happy with my YouTube download version :D), but apparently it is hard to find. Only $9.99 with free shipping.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Morton-Feldman-Piano-Violin-Viola-Cello-by-John-Snijders-CD-1995-Hat-Art-/191265337025?pt=Music_CDs&hash=item2c884d6ec1
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on August 01, 2014, 01:47:25 PM
I just came across this on eBay -- Feldman's Piano, Violin, Viola, Cello. I don't want it (love the piece, but I'm happy with my YouTube download version :D), but apparently it is hard to find. Only $9.99 with free shipping.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Morton-Feldman-Piano-Violin-Viola-Cello-by-John-Snijders-CD-1995-Hat-Art-/191265337025?pt=Music_CDs&hash=item2c884d6ec1
Gosh I tried downloading from youtube several ways and couldn't accomplish it. Thanks for this. I'm watching it to see how the bidding goes.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: petrarch on August 02, 2014, 07:14:28 AM
Gosh I tried downloading from youtube several ways and couldn't accomplish it. Thanks for this. I'm watching it to see how the bidding goes.

Try JDownloader. I have rarely had issues with it and youtube links.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on August 02, 2014, 07:22:55 AM
Try JDownloader. I have rarely had issues with it and youtube links.
Thanks. I'll try.
ETA: Well that works! Thank you!
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on August 07, 2014, 04:42:59 PM
Has anyone heard this recording? I am listening to Cello and Orchestra, probably one of my favorite Feldman works, and I keep hearing this extraneous hissing noise in the background. I think I even heard a whistle, which is making me suspect that it is a disrespectful audience member (I'm pretty sure it is a live recording). What a shame.



By the way, does anyone hear a connection to Webern in Feldman's music (in general)? I was listening to his Orchestra and it is oddly similar to Webern's Six Pieces.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 08, 2014, 02:34:48 AM
In the sparsity of texture, the focus on just a note as an event, certainly.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: not edward on August 09, 2014, 10:32:23 AM
Has anyone heard this recording? I am listening to Cello and Orchestra, probably one of my favorite Feldman works, and I keep hearing this extraneous hissing noise in the background. I think I even heard a whistle, which is making me suspect that it is a disrespectful audience member (I'm pretty sure it is a live recording). What a shame.



By the way, does anyone hear a connection to Webern in Feldman's music (in general)? I was listening to his Orchestra and it is oddly similar to Webern's Six Pieces.
It is live, but it's a no-brainer collection IMO regardless. Good performances all around (supplementable in Piano and Cello by the MTT collection on Argo).
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 27, 2014, 04:06:44 AM
Who would have known, Mr. James doesn't like Feldman.  I hesitate to say this very often, but in this case, you simply don't get it.  His music isn't for you, but that is OK.  You don't have to like it.  Feldman was still a genius.

Oh, I don't know, James seems to have observed that a fundamental principle of Feldman's music is repetition. He's got that far - and well done to him for noticing  ::) ::) Repetition isn't to James's tastes, it seems (though this is strange, as it is very much a stylistic principle of his own posts).

Smiling to revisit this thread, and these well-placed rebuttals.

This (http://www.cnvill.net/mfgriff2.htm) I found this morning, and an interestign (if brief) read.

Quote from: Morton Feldman
When I hear my own aleatory music today in a concert hall, I'm embarrassed, because it's not as 'successful' as the aleatory music of my students. It's simpler, it's different; it's not as interesting. The trouble with music composition as taught in colleges is that what you're learning has only one word: analysis. You're given models, and the implication is that there's a secret to learn that will help you compose. That's the first tragic assumption.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on August 27, 2014, 05:52:16 AM
Smiling to revisit this thread, and these well-placed rebuttals.

This (http://www.cnvill.net/mfgriff2.htm) I found this morning, and an interestign (if brief) read.
I see James mentions Rothko's Chapel as the only piece he could recommend. I like that piece, but it's not the piece I'm most attracted to and I think it's not nearly Feldman's most interesting work. James has the usual complaints, i.e. there's no "rhythmic momentum"; nothing's happening; it's like "watching paint dry" (gosh, it's the same thing Pauline Kael said about Eric Rohmer). Well, everyone has a right to their opinion. But I think there's so much happening in Feldman. I'm continually fascinated by the music. It's music I want to live with.
I like this quote:
"In my music I am … involved with the decay of each sound, and try to make its attack sourceless. The attack of a sound is not its character. Actually, what we hear is the attack and not the sound. Decay, however, this departing landscape, this expresses where the sound exists in our hearing – leaving us rather than coming towards us."
   
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 27, 2014, 05:58:03 AM
I see James mentions Rothko's Chapel as the only piece he could recommend. I like that piece, but it's not the piece I'm most attracted to and I think it's not nearly Feldman's most interesting work.

Agreed.

I also agree that it is an "inhabitable" sound world.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: ibanezmonster on August 27, 2014, 08:04:39 AM
For anyone that finds Feldman's music too difficult to sit through, it's a good idea to remember that you can do other stuff while listening.

In the right situation, his music can be the perfect background music. I can't even begin to describe how fitting something like Piano and String Quartet was when I was doing Dynamis in Final Fantasy 11. It's basically a dream world of familiar, pre-existing areas.


https://www.youtube.com/v/0_Q-1u6sNgQ

https://www.youtube.com/v/j7Yk0s2OUTM
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Henk on August 27, 2014, 08:11:02 AM
For anyone that finds Feldman's music too difficult to sit through, it's a good idea to remember that you can do other stuff while listening.

In the right situation, his music can be the perfect background music. I can't even begin to describe how fitting something like Piano and String Quartet was when I was doing Dynamis in Final Fantasy 11. It's basically a dream world of familiar, pre-existing areas.


https://www.youtube.com/v/0_Q-1u6sNgQ

https://www.youtube.com/v/j7Yk0s2OUTM

Background music, I take that as a negative qualification. I think his music is perfect for spending a night when you can't sleep, not to fall asleep, but to get relaxed through the night, calming, fall asleep maybe after listening.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on August 27, 2014, 11:32:07 AM
Background music, I take that as a negative qualification. I think his music is perfect for spending a night when you can't sleep, not to fall asleep, but to get relaxed through the night, calming, fall asleep maybe after listening.
Feldman makes great background music. I mean, I'm not going to lie and tell you all that I sit and stare at the wall while I listen to music -- I don't. I got to know Debussy's Jeux and La Mer intimately because these were the first two things on my iTunes playlist for "background music" that I'd play early in the morning while doing homework. I often paid as much attention to the music as I did to the homework and it made the overall experience more enjoyable and something to look forward to. I don't think that this counts as "wallpaper" music, which is more like a restaurant playing Vivaldi in the background while people talk.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: ibanezmonster on August 27, 2014, 12:03:29 PM
Background music, I take that as a negative qualification.
Meh, I guess it's not the loftiest aspiration for a composer, but he sure does make the some of the best background music out there.  :P At any rate, I find his music highly beautiful.

Heck, even music that sounds like Feldman can be awesome background music. I just saw this- first two minutes of this background music sounds a lot like if Feldman shaped his music into something just slightly more melodic.

https://www.youtube.com/v/X8JgHikCKuU
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: ibanezmonster on August 27, 2014, 12:06:05 PM
Of course, his music could be enjoyed as some sort of meditation, as well. However one would like to enjoy it (I'm not really into meditation).
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 27, 2014, 03:00:14 PM
But perhaps enjoying the music of Feldman is a type of meditation....
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on August 27, 2014, 03:54:06 PM
There are a lot of ways to enjoy Feldman. A meditation? An hallucination? Ambience? It has its own reality as well. I'm surprised it never pops up in films. I think I'll put on an old Star Trek, turn off the sound, and put on Crippled Symmetry and see how that works.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: not edward on August 27, 2014, 04:03:29 PM
And in some ways that's why I really prefer Feldman live, because you have to engage with the music directly, on its own merits, and--at least for me--it has not disappointed.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: ibanezmonster on August 27, 2014, 04:39:23 PM
I think I'll put on an old Star Trek, turn off the sound, and put on Crippled Symmetry and see how that works.
Good idea, though putting on subtitles might help.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on August 27, 2014, 07:31:22 PM
And in some ways that's why I really prefer Feldman live, because you have to engage with the music directly, on its own merits, and--at least for me--it has not disappointed.
I wish I could get the opportunity. Here in Osaka, it just doesn't happen. I was checking out Aki Takahashi's website and noticed she's playing some shows in Japan. What's she playing? Schubert! Schubert?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 28, 2014, 03:02:10 AM
I wish I could get the opportunity. Here in Osaka, it just doesn't happen. I was checking out Aki Takahashi's website and noticed she's playing some shows in Japan. What's she playing? Schubert! Schubert?

Bums in seats . . . .
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 28, 2014, 03:02:54 AM
Good idea, though putting on subtitles might help.

No, I even think that Star Trek might be enhanced by no subtitles  8)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on August 28, 2014, 03:05:13 AM
Bums in seats . . . .
I guess everyone's entitled to pay the bills.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on August 28, 2014, 03:07:54 AM
No, I even think that Star Trek might be enhanced by no subtitles  8)
They have Dark Side of the Rainbow. This could be Crippled Trek.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 28, 2014, 03:35:07 AM
I guess everyone's entitled to pay the bills.

Everyone hopes to, indeed;  I am shy of using the word entitled  ;)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 28, 2014, 03:35:53 AM
They have Dark Side of the Rainbow. This could be Crippled Trek.

Well played!
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: not edward on August 28, 2014, 05:10:02 AM
I wish I could get the opportunity. Here in Osaka, it just doesn't happen. I was checking out Aki Takahashi's website and noticed she's playing some shows in Japan. What's she playing? Schubert! Schubert?
A shame. I think a Schubert sonata and late Feldman would make a splendid program.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Rinaldo on September 02, 2014, 01:46:43 AM
And in some ways that's why I really prefer Feldman live, because you have to engage with the music directly, on its own merits, and--at least for me--it has not disappointed.

I've only had one opportunity to see a Feldman piece performed live. It was For John Cage and for the first half or so, I. was. bored. to. death. I do enjoy Feldman mostly as mood-setting (yes, you could say background.. but of the highest sense) music, yet I was uninvolved, focused on how to sit comfortably and ashamed of myself for 'not getting it', while others seemed to be transfixed by the sparse notation.

And then something clicked: not in the music, in my train of thought. Suddenly I was thinking about the exposed walls of the small church where the concert was held, the masons that put those bricks together, the people who thought about building a church here in the first place, and on and on my mind went, until it went full circle back to the music and I wasn't bored anymore. When I listened to the same piece later at home, I absolutely adored it.

I wonder if I'll have to go through boredom again the next time I catch a Feldman performance.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on September 02, 2014, 03:28:06 AM
A shame. I think a Schubert sonata and late Feldman would make a splendid program.
I would love the opportunity. I don't see it happening here in Osaka.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: amw on September 04, 2014, 01:28:59 AM
I wonder if I'll have to go through boredom again the next time I catch a Feldman performance.

The first piece along those lines I heard live was Cage's 103 and I was increasingly bored and/or uncomfortable for about 45 minutes. Then something changed; 60 minutes in, it started to be really interesting, and by the 75 minute mark I was ready for the music to go on for hours.

I suppose that's something that can happen if you have a short attention span, like me. I was also bored with Feldman's Neither in spite of a rather elaborate staging, but the music haunted me for years until I revisited it on recording and was transfixed.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on December 22, 2014, 02:06:10 PM
Does anyone know why Triadic Memories is called "memories" ? Has he talked about memory, nostalgia and other typically Schubertian concepts?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on December 22, 2014, 06:40:01 PM
Does anyone know why Triadic Memories is called "memories" ? Has he talked about memory, nostalgia and other typically Schubertian concepts?
There's a chapter on the piece in the book Give My Regards to Eighth Street. He says that it has a double meaning. One meaning has to do with three piano performers he has fond memories of -- David Tudor, Roger Woodward, and Aki Takahashi.

The other meaning has to do with how a chord is perceived versus how he creates one (there is an example in the book, but it is hard to describe).
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on December 23, 2014, 09:41:26 PM
There's a chapter on the piece in the book Give My Regards to Eighth Street. He says that it has a double meaning. One meaning has to do with three piano performers he has fond memories of -- David Tudor, Roger Woodward, and Aki Takahashi.

The other meaning has to do with how a chord is perceived versus how he creates one (there is an example in the book, but it is hard to describe).

Thanks. I shall order the book. I asked the question because I started to play it after getting irritated by all the repeats in Schubert's D840. And, as you may know, some scholars think that Schubert's music is really an exploration of memory, nostalgia. So I wondered if Feldman was interested in Schubert.

(Late) Feldman, like Schubert, isn't goal directed (contrast Beethoven), and is pastoral, lyrical, epic, heavenly length.

For what it's worth I find Triadic Memories infinitely more interesting to hear than the Schubert.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on December 24, 2014, 03:20:40 AM
Thanks. I shall order the book. I asked the question because I started to play it after getting irritated by all the repeats in Schubert's D840. And, as you may know, some scholars think that Schubert's music is really an exploration of memory, nostalgia. So I wondered if Feldman was interested in Schubert.

(Late) Feldman, like Schubert, isn't goal directed (contrast Beethoven), and is pastoral, lyrical, epic, heavenly length.

For what it's worth I find Triadic Memories infinitely more interesting to hear than the Schubert.
Actually, he was interested in Schubert. A quote from the FeldmanSays app (yes, I actually have it :D -- see first post of the Feldman thread):

Like a bad poker player, Schubert always shows his hand. But this very faultiness, this very failure is his virtue.

He also mentions Schubert in Give My Regards....
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on December 24, 2014, 08:51:57 AM
Actually, he was interested in Schubert. A quote from the FeldmanSays app (yes, I actually have it :D -- see first post of the Feldman thread):

Like a bad poker player, Schubert always shows his hand. But this very faultiness, this very failure is his virtue.

He also mentions Schubert in Give My Regards....

I wonder what he means, shows his hand. It reminds me of something Boulez says about Mondrian in a letter to Stockhausen - that there's no mystery in Mondrian's style.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on December 25, 2014, 04:25:16 PM
I wonder what he means, shows his hand. It reminds me of something Boulez says about Mondrian in a letter to Stockhausen - that there's no mystery in Mondrian's style.
I'm not sure. It is an interesting statement. Lots of things he said are interesting, but also leave the reader wanting to ask Morty more questions. He also said (I think it is in the book Feldman Says) that he really admired Ligeti, but probably not for the reason(s) Ligeti would like. That one also got me scratching my head.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on December 29, 2014, 06:32:55 AM
(http://www.anaclase.com/sites/default/files/PC%20gareau%20musique-feldman-temps%20harmattan.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51TOSLNLgaL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

Anyone read either of these? Literature on the late music, litererature which covers what he was trying to do and why, is hard to find if you don't have access to academic journals. I'm currently trying to get my head around For Samuel Beckett (I'm listening to Mosko after giving up on Cambreling)  - and I'm wondering how he decided when the music was finished.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987) FOR SAMUEL BECKETT
Post by: snyprrr on December 29, 2014, 09:25:13 AM
(http://www.anaclase.com/sites/default/files/PC%20gareau%20musique-feldman-temps%20harmattan.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51TOSLNLgaL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

Anyone read either of these? Literature on the late music, litererature which covers what he was trying to do and why, is hard to find if you don't have access to academic journals. I'm currently trying to get my head around For Samuel Beckett (I'm listening to Mosko after giving up on Cambreling)  - and I'm wondering how he decided when the music was finished.

Mosko was the first Feldman I ever heard, got it at a used store. They say that Mosko is the best here. All I know is that this is the dreariest piece I've ever heard- a long rainy Sunday afternoon in 40 minutes! I say it's in his "non-melodic" style (as opposed to the 'Piano and String Quartet' for instance), the mushy, bleeding colors style,... I like to have it on, but I don't actually like the "feeling"- mushy mushy,... buuut,... there are no other mellow long pieces out there, are there? Could it be used for hypnosis?

I certainly don't want to hear the others...
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987) FOR SAMUEL BECKETT
Post by: Mandryka on December 29, 2014, 12:15:41 PM
Mosko was the first Feldman I ever heard, got it at a used store. They say that Mosko is the best here. All I know is that this is the dreariest piece I've ever heard- a long rainy Sunday afternoon in 40 minutes! I say it's in his "non-melodic" style (as opposed to the 'Piano and String Quartet' for instance), the mushy, bleeding colors style,... I like to have it on, but I don't actually like the "feeling"- mushy mushy,... buuut,... there are no other mellow long pieces out there, are there? Could it be used for hypnosis?

I certainly don't want to hear the others...

And yet he could write, in the same year as For Samuel Beckett, the stupendous Trio. It's the Trio which I think is the major masterpiece of his final period, not the second quartet or the Quintet.(Can someone upload the Ives Ensemble Trio please, because I want to hear it?)

As far as versions of For Samuel Beckett go, the one other I want to hear is Petr Kotik's, he fiddled around with the score -- bigger string section. Kotik also recorded  The Turfan Fragments, I've only heard this youtube but it sounds interesting to me -- just listen to this, it's real music:

https://www.youtube.com/v/e49qbrz1sZU
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: 7/4 on December 31, 2014, 03:17:31 PM
"All you need is the kind of spiritual aggressiveness to sit down and be true to what’s in front of you."

Harold Budd on Morton Feldman (https://harmonicsdb.wordpress.com/2014/12/31/harold-budd-on-morton-feldman/)





.

Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: amw on December 31, 2014, 03:55:42 PM
[machine translation]
In fact, when I started to study certain things [Palais de Mari] sounded familiar to me. Then when I analyzed carefully I found explicit references to my Dispersions and Two pianos and violin . At the time I remember that the fact I was surprised: I thought I had imagined him to the floor as he wrote. Would not be so unlikely that he had snatched the peculiarities immaginistiche of my style. However, I was annoyed by its many borrowed from my work. Ransacked my melodies, harmonies, notations, compositional processes. The work that has laid off since 1976 rely heavily on my contribution. The pungolavo every day, my music the prodding. He came to confide that I passed, as a composer. Listened often my work, trying to get on top of the method that it took me. Sometimes he succeeded, others not. The fact is that now I can not hear his Piano and string quartet without nausea because it is a looting from the imagination of my adolescence. He adopted some of my compositional process, certain records and intervallic reactions concerning the orchestration

interview with Bunita Marcus (http://sentireascoltare.com/articoli/bunita-marcus-intervista-2014/)

Doesn't seem to have been much follow-up in the classical music world on the notion that Feldman appropriated lots of musical material from his students, apparently to the point of plagiarism. (This interview hasn't been translated into English either.) Not very surprising.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987) FOR SAMUEL BECKETT
Post by: Artem on December 31, 2014, 06:14:19 PM
And yet he could write, in the same year as For Samuel Beckett, the stupendous Trio. It's the Trio which I think is the major masterpiece of his final period, not the second quartet or the Quintet.(Can someone upload the Ives Ensemble Trio please, because I want to hear it?)

As far as versions of For Samuel Beckett go, the one other I want to hear is Petr Kotik's, he fiddled around with the score -- bigger string section. Kotik also recorded  The Turfan Fragments, I've only heard this youtube but it sounds interesting to me -- just listen to this, it's real music:

https://www.youtube.com/v/e49qbrz1sZU
I like Arturo Tamayo's version on Hat Art. Would also recommend to stay away from Roland Kluttig's CD on CPO. His sound is to forceful to my ears, but Tamayo achieves a nice balance with that piece.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on December 31, 2014, 06:14:38 PM
[machine translation]
In fact, when I started to study certain things [Palais de Mari] sounded familiar to me. Then when I analyzed carefully I found explicit references to my Dispersions and Two pianos and violin . At the time I remember that the fact I was surprised: I thought I had imagined him to the floor as he wrote. Would not be so unlikely that he had snatched the peculiarities immaginistiche of my style. However, I was annoyed by its many borrowed from my work. Ransacked my melodies, harmonies, notations, compositional processes. The work that has laid off since 1976 rely heavily on my contribution. The pungolavo every day, my music the prodding. He came to confide that I passed, as a composer. Listened often my work, trying to get on top of the method that it took me. Sometimes he succeeded, others not. The fact is that now I can not hear his Piano and string quartet without nausea because it is a looting from the imagination of my adolescence. He adopted some of my compositional process, certain records and intervallic reactions concerning the orchestration

interview with Bunita Marcus (http://sentireascoltare.com/articoli/bunita-marcus-intervista-2014/)

Doesn't seem to have been much follow-up in the classical music world on the notion that Feldman appropriated lots of musical material from his students, apparently to the point of plagiarism. (This interview hasn't been translated into English either.) Not very surprising.
I'm reading online that Feldman and Markus were extremely close and that, according to Markus, he taught her, influenced her and championed her:
http://www.newmusicbox.org/articles/who-is-bunita-marcus/ (http://www.newmusicbox.org/articles/who-is-bunita-marcus/)
I wouldn't be surprised if Feldman was a bit of an egomaniac. I wouldn't be surprised if any genius composers turn out to be so. These two are described as having been inseparable for a time and as having composed side-by-side. Do you think she was also influenced by him?
Even from the translated quote you provided I'm not seeing support for the assertion that he appropriated a lot of musical material from his students. Any other examples?
Markus seems interesting. I wish I could locate a recording of something of hers.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on January 01, 2015, 12:26:01 AM
[machine translation]
In fact, when I started to study certain things [Palais de Mari] sounded familiar to me. Then when I analyzed carefully I found explicit references to my Dispersions and Two pianos and violin . At the time I remember that the fact I was surprised: I thought I had imagined him to the floor as he wrote. Would not be so unlikely that he had snatched the peculiarities immaginistiche of my style. However, I was annoyed by its many borrowed from my work. Ransacked my melodies, harmonies, notations, compositional processes. The work that has laid off since 1976 rely heavily on my contribution. The pungolavo every day, my music the prodding. He came to confide that I passed, as a composer. Listened often my work, trying to get on top of the method that it took me. Sometimes he succeeded, others not. The fact is that now I can not hear his Piano and string quartet without nausea because it is a looting from the imagination of my adolescence. He adopted some of my compositional process, certain records and intervallic reactions concerning the orchestration

interview with Bunita Marcus (http://sentireascoltare.com/articoli/bunita-marcus-intervista-2014/)

Doesn't seem to have been much follow-up in the classical music world on the notion that Feldman appropriated lots of musical material from his students, apparently to the point of plagiarism. (This interview hasn't been translated into English either.) Not very surprising.

That made me think of John Fuegi's book on Brecht. Can anyone upload Dispersions and Two pianos and violin? It's a shame she doesn't say which of her pieces the quintet reminds her of,

By the way, I was mistaken in a post above, when I suggested the Trio is a late work - I think it was from 1980, same period as the Turfan Fragments. It remains the piece by Feldman that I like the most. In fact, it's the only one where I can get all the way to the end.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on January 01, 2015, 05:28:18 AM
That made me think of John Fuegi's book on Brecht. Can anyone upload Dispersions and Two pianos and violin? It's a shame she doesn't say which of her pieces the quintet reminds her of,

By the way, I was mistaken in a post above, when I suggested the Trio is a late work - I think it was from 1980, same period as the Turfan Fragments. It remains the piece by Feldman that I like the most. In fact, it's the only one where I can get all the way to the end.
I don't think I've heard the trio, but now I'm intrigued.

You can't make it to the end of Coptic Light? ???
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Artem on January 01, 2015, 11:18:58 AM
Maybe it is because I haven't heard the right version of the Trio (I have it on Mode and NCA), but I don't like it that much, especially that loud note in the middle of the piece, which sounds like a very clear dividing line and it spoils the magic of late Feldman for me, when his music is floating out of time and structure.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on January 01, 2015, 11:35:14 AM
I don't think I've heard the trio, but now I'm intrigued.

You can't make it to the end of Coptic Light? ???

Never gone from start  to the end of Coptic Light in one sitting. It reminds me of For Samuel Beckett.

Maybe it is because I haven't heard the right version of the Trio (I have it on Mode and NCA), but I don't like it that much, especially that loud note in the middle of the piece, which sounds like a very clear dividing line and it spoils the magic of late Feldman for me, when his music is floating out of time and structure.

I think we can safely conclude that I'm not very attuned to late Feldman. In fact this Trio sounds so different from works that I think of as paradigmatically late that I wonder whether it is (1980). I like it precisely because it's not floating out of time and structure -- I find floating out of time and structure boring, which is why I find it hard to get to the end of things like Piano and String Quartet or the Second Quartet. By the way zen meditation - Cage's big thing (and hence Feldman's?) - isn't about floating out of time and structure at all. On the contrary.

I will ask again the question I've asked many times -- how did Feldman know when to stop?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: torut on January 01, 2015, 11:38:14 PM
I'm reading online that Feldman and Markus were extremely close and that, according to Markus, he taught her, influenced her and championed her:
http://www.newmusicbox.org/articles/who-is-bunita-marcus/ (http://www.newmusicbox.org/articles/who-is-bunita-marcus/)
I wouldn't be surprised if Feldman was a bit of an egomaniac. I wouldn't be surprised if any genius composers turn out to be so. These two are described as having been inseparable for a time and as having composed side-by-side. Do you think she was also influenced by him?
Even from the translated quote you provided I'm not seeing support for the assertion that he appropriated a lot of musical material from his students. Any other examples?
Markus seems interesting. I wish I could locate a recording of something of hers.
You can listen to these online, but I couldn't find her early works which she claimed Feldman "snatched" or "loot"ed. I just skimmed two interviews and was surprised by the sharp difference of her tones. What happened to her between 2010 and 2014?

Sugar Cubes (1996)
https://www.youtube.com/v/yv1ecwaz07M

Adam and Eve (1989) from Bang On A Can Live Vol. 3
https://www.youtube.com/v/u5veTD7VDf0

https://bunitamarcus.bandcamp.com/album/favorite-works-from-the-1980s
Adam and Eve (1989)
JULIA (1989)
THE RUGMAKER (1986)
LECTURE FOR JO KONDO (1985)
MUSIC FOR JAPAN (1983)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: torut on January 02, 2015, 12:02:13 AM
I will ask again the question I've asked many times -- how did Feldman know when to stop?
Another crucial difference is in making the distinction between constructing a "composition" and that of assemblage, which is more what this quartet is about. A "composition" for me forms sentence structures within a scenario of beginning, middle and end. Very much the way Picasso uses a rectangle as a ready-made protagonist. With assemblage there is no continuity of fitting the parts together as words in a sentence or paragraph. - Feldman, String Quartet II

Feldman's writings are as enigmatic as his compositions. I guess he composed music as if it was a painting or a pattern of Turkish rug? (no beginning or end?)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on January 02, 2015, 12:23:14 AM
You can listen to these online, but I couldn't find her early works which she claimed Feldman "snatched" or "loot"ed. I just skimmed two interviews and was surprised by the sharp difference of her tones. What happened to her between 2010 and 2014?

Sugar Cubes (1996)
https://www.youtube.com/v/yv1ecwaz07M

Adam and Eve (1989) from Bang On A Can Live Vol. 3
https://www.youtube.com/v/u5veTD7VDf0

https://bunitamarcus.bandcamp.com/album/favorite-works-from-the-1980s
Adam and Eve (1989)
JULIA (1989)
THE RUGMAKER (1986)
LECTURE FOR JO KONDO (1985)
MUSIC FOR JAPAN (1983)
Thanks for posting these. I'll listen. Yes, in the interview I read she doesn't seem disparaging at all. She says she was really involved in Feldman's life (at his wedding, composing, academically, etc.). It doesn't surprise me that there are complicated feelings. 
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on January 02, 2015, 12:25:00 AM
You can listen to these online, but I couldn't find her early works which she claimed Feldman "snatched" or "loot"ed. I just skimmed two interviews and was surprised by the sharp difference of her tones. What happened to her between 2010 and 2014?

Sugar Cubes (1996)
https://www.youtube.com/v/yv1ecwaz07M

Adam and Eve (1989) from Bang On A Can Live Vol. 3
https://www.youtube.com/v/u5veTD7VDf0

https://bunitamarcus.bandcamp.com/album/favorite-works-from-the-1980s
Adam and Eve (1989)
JULIA (1989)
THE RUGMAKER (1986)
LECTURE FOR JO KONDO (1985)
MUSIC FOR JAPAN (1983)
Oh. I realize that I own the Adam and Eve piece. It's a nice piece. But I don't perceive anything like the depth of Feldman's music. I'll check this other one.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on January 02, 2015, 01:25:10 AM
Quote
Another crucial difference is in making the distinction between constructing a "composition" and that of assemblage, which is more what this quartet is about. A "composition" for me forms sentence structures within a scenario of beginning, middle and end. Very much the way Picasso uses a rectangle as a ready-made protagonist. With assemblage there is no continuity of fitting the parts together as words in a sentence or paragraph. - Feldman, String Quartet II

Feldman's writings are as enigmatic as his compositions. I guess he composed music as if it was a painting or a pattern of Turkish rug? (no beginning or end?)

I suppose one major difference between a Turkish carpet and a piece of music is that you can take in the whole carpet in one single act of apprehension. Music is a process, it takes time.

Did Feldman say anything about time?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on January 02, 2015, 01:38:20 AM
I suppose one major difference between a Turkish carpet and a piece of music is that you can take in the whole carpet in one single act of apprehension. Music is a process, it takes time.

Did Feldman say anything about time?
"My whole generation was hung up on the 20 to 25 minute piece. It was our clock. We all got to know it, and how to handle it. As soon as you leave the 20-25 minute piece behind, in a one-movement work, different problems arise. Up to one hour you think about form, but after an hour and a half it's scale. Form is easy - just the division of things into parts. But scale is another matter. You have to have control of the piece - it requires a heightened kind of concentration. Before, my pieces were like objects; now, they're like evolving things."

http://www.cnvill.net/mfbio.htm (http://www.cnvill.net/mfbio.htm)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on January 02, 2015, 05:53:08 AM
Maybe it is because I haven't heard the right version of the Trio (I have it on Mode and NCA), but I don't like it that much, especially that loud note in the middle of the piece, which sounds like a very clear dividing line and it spoils the magic of late Feldman for me, when his music is floating out of time and structure.

I want to make a point about this, though I should say that I'm not sure about it. What you say about some lateish pieces seems right - For Samuel Beckett, Coptic Light, Piano and String Quartet possibly. But others seem to be marked out by regular unexpected events which, given the context of quiet repetition, are very dramatic. I'm listening right now to John Tilbury play For Bunita Marcus, and that's what happens from time to time. And I remember something similar in the second quartet. You're right to suggest that the trio has "dividing lines", and I do feel that it's more exciting than much of his music (that's why I like it.) But it's not so unique.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on January 02, 2015, 05:57:12 AM
"My whole generation was hung up on the 20 to 25 minute piece. It was our clock. We all got to know it, and how to handle it. As soon as you leave the 20-25 minute piece behind, in a one-movement work, different problems arise. Up to one hour you think about form, but after an hour and a half it's scale. Form is easy - just the division of things into parts. But scale is another matter. You have to have control of the piece - it requires a heightened kind of concentration. Before, my pieces were like objects; now, they're like evolving things."

http://www.cnvill.net/mfbio.htm (http://www.cnvill.net/mfbio.htm)

Well evolving things are processes. But his music has a beginning and an end, doesn't it?

Or maybe it doesn't  - can you just enter where you want, leave where you want, and not lose or gain anything much?

I remember someone telling me that if you were in New York hearing The Well Tuned Piano, you were expected to be there for the duration.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 02, 2015, 06:35:06 AM
I suppose one major difference between a Turkish carpet and a piece of music is that you can take in the whole carpet in one single act of apprehension. Music is a process, it takes time.

Did Feldman say anything about time?

"My whole generation was hung up on the 20 to 25 minute piece. It was our clock. We all got to know it, and how to handle it. As soon as you leave the 20-25 minute piece behind, in a one-movement work, different problems arise. Up to one hour you think about form, but after an hour and a half it's scale. Form is easy - just the division of things into parts. But scale is another matter. You have to have control of the piece - it requires a heightened kind of concentration. Before, my pieces were like objects; now, they're like evolving things."

http://www.cnvill.net/mfbio.htm (http://www.cnvill.net/mfbio.htm)

Thanks for getting there first!  That is exactly the remark I was going to fold in here.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on January 02, 2015, 08:35:35 AM
Well evolving things are processes. But his music has a beginning and an end, doesn't it?

Or maybe it doesn't  - can you just enter where you want, leave where you want, and not lose or gain anything much?

I remember someone telling me that if you were in New York hearing The Well Tuned Piano, you were expected to be there for the duration.
With some of Feldman's pieces, I do not feel it matters much when I start or stop.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: torut on January 02, 2015, 09:48:16 AM
Oh. I realize that I own the Adam and Eve piece. It's a nice piece. But I don't perceive anything like the depth of Feldman's music. I'll check this other one.
Adam and Eve does not have much reminiscent of Feldman. Lecture for Jo Kondo and Sugar Cubes have something Feldmanian, but these are later works which Feldman couldn't see, and I think Feldman's works are more delicate and subtle. (Maybe it depends on performances?) If possible, I want to hear Dispersions (1979) or Two pianos and violin (1981) mentioned in the 2014 interview.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: torut on January 02, 2015, 10:41:19 AM
Well evolving things are processes. But his music has a beginning and an end, doesn't it?

Or maybe it doesn't  - can you just enter where you want, leave where you want, and not lose or gain anything much?

I remember someone telling me that if you were in New York hearing The Well Tuned Piano, you were expected to be there for the duration.
He also wrote, "In my early training as a composer with Stefan Wolpe, the one theme persistent in all our lessons was why I did not develop my ideas but went from one thing to another. 'Negation' was how Wolpe characterized this." (Crippled Symmetry) If he didn't "compose" in a traditional way that has a "scenario," and if there is no continuity, how to start and end a piece of music may not be the most important factor. There is no development or conclusion.

When I listen to a work of Feldman, I feel as if I just happen to start and stop hearing a very long music in the middle of its performance.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on January 02, 2015, 04:27:31 PM
He also wrote, "In my early training as a composer with Stefan Wolpe, the one theme persistent in all our lessons was why I did not develop my ideas but went from one thing to another. 'Negation' was how Wolpe characterized this." (Crippled Symmetry) If he didn't "compose" in a traditional way that has a "scenario," and if there is no continuity, how to start and end a piece of music may not be the most important factor. There is no development or conclusion.

When I listen to a work of Feldman, I feel as if I just happen to start and stop hearing a very long music in the middle of its performance.
This is how I feel as well. It's like looking in on some natural event, like dipping into a cloud or checking up on an ant colony.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on January 07, 2015, 07:45:13 PM
Never gone from start  to the end of Coptic Light in one sitting. It reminds me of For Samuel Beckett.

I think we can safely conclude that I'm not very attuned to late Feldman. In fact this Trio sounds so different from works that I think of as paradigmatically late that I wonder whether it is (1980). I like it precisely because it's not floating out of time and structure -- I find floating out of time and structure boring, which is why I find it hard to get to the end of things like Piano and String Quartet or the Second Quartet. By the way zen meditation - Cage's big thing (and hence Feldman's?) - isn't about floating out of time and structure at all. On the contrary.

I will ask again the question I've asked many times -- how did Feldman know when to stop?
For me the core is works like for Philip Guston and Crippled symmetry - works which remind me of the revelation of the mystery of the natural world. 
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on January 14, 2015, 09:56:40 AM
I've started to listen to the string quintet (Violin and String Quartet)

I can't help but wonder if there are new ideas here, whether this piece is doing anything intetestingly different from the second quartet. Do we really need both?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on January 14, 2015, 04:08:52 PM
I've started to listen to the string quintet (Violin and String Quartet)

I can't help but wonder if there are new ideas here, whether this piece is doing anything intetestingly different from the second quartet. Do we really need both?
I didn't know about this piece. Well, I'm going to listen to it today.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Artem on January 14, 2015, 07:55:41 PM
I think Piano and String Quartet is different from the 2nd SQ. But it doesn't bring something new, rather it makes the music more manageable, like For John Cage, for example. The 2nd SQ is rather tricky compared to the Piano and String Quartet
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on January 14, 2015, 09:54:17 PM
I think Piano and String Quartet is different from the 2nd SQ. But it doesn't bring something new, rather it makes the music more manageable, like For John Cage, for example. The 2nd SQ is rather tricky compared to the Piano and String Quartet.

Please say a bit more about this if you have time. When you say that the 2nd quartet is trickier than the string quintet, do you mean trickier to play or trickier to appreciate?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on January 14, 2015, 10:22:17 PM
He also wrote, "In my early training as a composer with Stefan Wolpe, the one theme persistent in all our lessons was why I did not develop my ideas but went from one thing to another. 'Negation' was how Wolpe characterized this." (Crippled Symmetry) If he didn't "compose" in a traditional way that has a "scenario," and if there is no continuity, how to start and end a piece of music may not be the most important factor. There is no development or conclusion.

When I listen to a work of Feldman, I feel as if I just happen to start and stop hearing a very long music in the middle of its performance.

I wonder how suitable the music is for a concert, where you have to start at the start and end at the end.Sonmeone's playing Triadic Memories in the Wigmore Hall in a few weeks. I'm not sure if I'll go.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: not edward on January 15, 2015, 05:18:27 AM
I wonder how suitable the music is for a concert, where you have to start at the start and end at the end.Sonmeone's playing Triadic Memories in the Wigmore Hall in a few weeks. I'm not sure if I'll go.
I've found Feldman easier to appreciate live than on CD. On CD, it's easy to lose focus; the concert setting makes that less of an issue.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on January 15, 2015, 09:44:53 AM
Well if I do go I'll take a persian rug along with me and lie down in the aisles.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: torut on January 15, 2015, 05:02:26 PM
I've found Feldman easier to appreciate live than on CD. On CD, it's easy to lose focus; the concert setting makes that less of an issue.
I have not heard Feldman's music live but I think I would agree. It is the most unsuitable music for background listening.

Well if I do go I'll take a persian rug along with me and lie down in the aisles.
It should be ideal. I would like to listen to Feldman in concert like this. (This is Riley's concert.)
(http://www.bampfa.berkeley.edu/images/art/late120514/1205Late.jpg)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Artem on January 15, 2015, 07:36:55 PM
Please say a bit more about this if you have time. When you say that the 2nd quartet is trickier than the string quintet, do you mean trickier to play or trickier to appreciate?
I think it is both. I'm not a professional musician, but I suppose the 3 hour difference in length of the two pieces should make the 2nd String Quartet more difficult to play. The Piano and String Quartet to my ears is much more straightforward piece and it follows just one path, while with the 2nd SQ you have these various alternating segments and they make you feel like you're walking in a maze.

I have listened to the Piano and String Quartet a number of times. I've also fallen asleep to it on a number of occasions. But I haven't had a chance to listen to the 2nd SQ through yet.

Maybe I'll try to give both works a listen this weekend. However, as much as I like late Feldman music I find it is very hard to find dedicated time for him these days.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: torut on January 15, 2015, 08:09:10 PM
Isn't Mandryka talking about "Violin and String Quartet"?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Artem on January 15, 2015, 08:26:34 PM
 :P
Sorry, I mixed it up.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on January 15, 2015, 09:43:31 PM
Yes, Violin and String Quartet. I'm not so keen on Piano and String quartet, I find the ideas not so interesting and a bit too sweet and cloying. The string quintet is a winner IMO, I have the recording on Hat Hut and exploring it has been very satisfying.

Previously I had been listening to it on youtube and I had had a much less positive response. Sound quality is important - particularly for hearing the relation between the violin and string quartet and relishing the dark dissonances in the last third of the music.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Rinaldo on January 16, 2015, 12:47:24 AM
I have not heard Feldman's music live but I think I would agree. It is the most unsuitable music for background listening.

I have the exact opposite experience and play Feldman as background a lot, to set the tone or mood of the moment. When I saw For John Cage live, it was very hard for me to keep my concentration, but I loved it when played at home, free to drift in & out of the music as it went by.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on January 16, 2015, 01:07:22 AM
I've found Feldman easier to appreciate live than on CD. On CD, it's easy to lose focus; the concert setting makes that less of an issue.
My friend's wife is playing Why Patterns with a group at the end of the month in Kyoto. I'm quite looking forward to it.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on January 16, 2015, 01:26:36 AM
I have the exact opposite experience and play Feldman as background a lot, to set the tone or mood of the moment. When I saw For John Cage live, it was very hard for me to keep my concentration, but I loved it when played at home, free to drift in & out of the music as it went by.
I feel the same way. I came across this funny YouTube comment on the video for Piano and String Quartet:

putting this on while doing anything makes your life more like a living art house movie... try it, put it on while you iron, or do the washing up... tell me you won't have those 'stare off into the distance' moments where you think real deep <close up> and... wonder..........
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on January 16, 2015, 01:57:23 PM
Today I've started to listen to Patterns in a Chromatic Field, I think it's outstanding - lively, and full of interest.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on January 16, 2015, 06:54:07 PM
Today I've started to listen to Patterns in a Chromatic Field, I think it's outstanding - lively, and full of interest.
I like these small-scale works so much. I feel a strong connection with them. Patterns, Crippled and Guston come to mind. I guess I like the delicacy and the simplicity of the voices. I feel like I'm inhabiting them as I listen. 
Why Patterns is a smaller piece I'll be seeing live next week. I'm curious about how the live performance will affect me.
I was wondering recently why Feldman's work hasn't been used much in film.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on January 16, 2015, 09:55:58 PM
Well Patterns in a Chromatic Field isn't really a short piece - about 90 minutes. There are a whole bunch of late pieces which are exciting and dramatic and turbulent and full of variety, and Patterns in a Chromatic Field is one of them. Others would be the Trio, and Violin and String Quartet. The idea that Feldman's music is repetitive and sweet and tame and quiet and slow and pointless isn't quite right for all his late work.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on January 16, 2015, 10:30:41 PM
Well Patterns in a Chromatic Field isn't really a short piece - about 90 minutes. There are a whole bunch of late pieces which are exciting and dramatic and turbulent and full of variety, and Patterns in a Chromatic Field is one of them. Others would be the Trio, and Violin and String Quartet. The idea that Feldman's music is repetitive and sweet and tame and quiet and slow and pointless isn't quite right for all his late work.

I used the wrong word. I meant to say these intimate pieces for a few musicians. Chamber works. Yes, Crippled is quite long; Guston very is long. But I think they are my favorites. Perhaps these are all 80s works. 
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: torut on January 17, 2015, 10:05:50 AM
I have the exact opposite experience and play Feldman as background a lot, to set the tone or mood of the moment. When I saw For John Cage live, it was very hard for me to keep my concentration, but I loved it when played at home, free to drift in & out of the music as it went by.
When Feldman is played while I am doing something that requires modest brain activities, the music sometimes irritates me. If I concentrate on the music, it is very good, but once my focus veers away, it starts sounding a disturbance. So, to me, Feldman's music requires concentration, and that is the reason I find it difficult. An exception is Triadic Memories. It's almost always good under whatever circumstances.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on January 19, 2015, 08:23:03 PM
My friend's wife is playing Why Patterns with a group at the end of the month in Kyoto. I'm quite looking forward to it.
My friend told me today that his wife's group had expected the Feldman piece to be less demanding than it is. Apparently, they've added rehearsals. In the past, she has played Cage, Ligeti, Xenakis, Stockhausen, etc. I find it interesting that they might have underestimated the demand of playing Feldman. I wonder if he is deceptively simple. I'm much looking forward to their performance. The flautist will also perform a solo piece of Scelsi.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on January 22, 2015, 12:22:26 PM
My friend told me today that his wife's group had expected the Feldman piece to be less demanding than it is. Apparently, they've added rehearsals. In the past, she has played Cage, Ligeti, Xenakis, Stockhausen, etc. I find it interesting that they might have underestimated the demand of playing Feldman. I wonder if he is deceptively simple. I'm much looking forward to their performance. The flautist will also perform a solo piece of Scelsi.
That will be a great one to see live. Not too long, either. I don't think I'd have the patience and/or attention span to sit in an audience for 2+ hrs for one of his large-scale works.

Last night I was thinking about Coptic Light. I don't know -- just kind of rambling thoughts about the piece that I feel like sharing. Throughout its 30 minute duration, it seems like the whole orchestra is working to a synchronized ostinato figure (i.e. repetitive rhythm). Around 10 minutes from the end it finally starts to get there, and it definitely gets there around 5 minutes from the end (string pizzicato, harp, staccato winds and brass). Then it just kind of stops...
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on January 23, 2015, 04:10:16 AM
That will be a great one to see live. Not too long, either. I don't think I'd have the patience and/or attention span to sit in an audience for 2+ hrs for one of his large-scale works.

Last night I was thinking about Coptic Light. I don't know -- just kind of rambling thoughts about the piece that I feel like sharing. Throughout its 30 minute duration, it seems like the whole orchestra is working to a synchronized ostinato figure (i.e. repetitive rhythm). Around 10 minutes from the end it finally starts to get there, and it definitely gets there around 5 minutes from the end (string pizzicato, harp, staccato winds and brass). Then it just kind of stops...
Yes, I think so. Recently I realized that the version of Why with Feldman (New World) on piano is much better than the version with Gaylord Mowrey (New Albion).
I would like to try a longer one live some time - particularly Crippled Symmetry.
I like Coptic Light very much. I feel it would be a good one to see live. It reminds me of what I imagine the sensation of floating through moonlit clouds would be. There is something sinister in it, but, as usual, it's a natural kind of sinister (to me). Music like this should be caustic. But it isn't. It's kind of soft somehow. How does he make dissonance work like this?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Artem on January 25, 2015, 09:40:49 PM
New Feldman recording is coming out soon.

(http://www.bridgerecords.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/9446_cover-Copy.jpg)

Quote
Feldman’s last work, Piano, Violin, Viola, Cello displays the qualities of the “late style”: complete mastery, utter assurance, and a kind of luminous melancholy. Like Palais de Mari, written a year earlier, it unfolds at a leisurely pace, with similar uses of repetition and recurrence, gentle rocking figures, and a somewhat restricted range. The measured unfolding of the material, without emphasis on dramatic contrast or large fluctuations in the rate of change, enables the listener to focus on the work’s many subtle and beguiling details.

http://www.bridgerecords.com/products/feldman-piano-violin-viola-cello-1987-morton-feldman-vol-5/ (http://www.bridgerecords.com/products/feldman-piano-violin-viola-cello-1987-morton-feldman-vol-5/)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on January 26, 2015, 01:08:39 AM
New Feldman recording is coming out soon.

(http://www.bridgerecords.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/9446_cover-Copy.jpg)

http://www.bridgerecords.com/products/feldman-piano-violin-viola-cello-1987-morton-feldman-vol-5/ (http://www.bridgerecords.com/products/feldman-piano-violin-viola-cello-1987-morton-feldman-vol-5/)
*steals picture*

*goes to "Worst Looking Album Covers" thread*

I like this piece. A lot. I prefer P&SQ, but it's great to see that it is getting another recording.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Artem on January 28, 2015, 09:05:39 PM
I received the latest CD (Two Pianos and Other Pieces, 1953-1969) of Feldman's music yesterday. Has anybody got it too?

(http://www.anothertimbre.com/_wp_generated/wp6caa7686_05_06.jpg)

I began exploring it today. Had some time to listen to the first CD and my initial impression is that it is a very well chosen program, but played a bit too slow, compared to the version of some of these pieces on other CDs. But that is just the first listen, which I usually don't trust.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: San Antone on February 24, 2015, 09:03:15 AM
Been listening to this one ...

Coptic Light
Coptic Light
Piano and Orchestra
Cello and Orchestra

Alan Feinberg, piano
Robert Cohen, cello
New World Symphony Orchestra/Michael Tilson Thomas
Argo 448513-2 DDD 73:35

(http://www.classical.net/music/recs/images/a/arg48513.jpg)

A good place to begin a Feldman collection.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on February 24, 2015, 05:05:56 PM
Been listening to this one ...

Coptic Light
Coptic Light
Piano and Orchestra
Cello and Orchestra

Alan Feinberg, piano
Robert Cohen, cello
New World Symphony Orchestra/Michael Tilson Thomas
Argo 448513-2 DDD 73:35

(http://www.classical.net/music/recs/images/a/arg48513.jpg)

A good place to begin a Feldman collection.
This is one of my favorite albums (ever).
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on April 08, 2015, 02:04:09 PM
The only video of Feldman I've seen:
https://www.youtube.com/v/0hEs4nelc_8

And here's a four hour long discussion with Cage (combined from several discussions). I like how you can hear a cigarette be lit every few minutes... Adds to the atmosphere (even though I'm allergic to smoke...)
https://www.youtube.com/v/5bW2Q1i5Yik
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on April 20, 2015, 12:41:38 PM
So I've exhausted the supply of Feldman talks/interviews. I wish there was more since he had so much to say about music and art in general, but it was nice to see/hear what exists. Probably more than many composers, but I feel that I only got to hear the tip of the iceberg, so to speak.

This one, from 1986, was my favorite: https://archive.org/details/MFeldmanSOM

The highlight was when someone mentioned "consonance" in his music. His reply was something like "If I ever thought to use the term 'consonant' to describe any of my music -- I think I'd quietly go to the basement -- and hang myself."
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: chadfeldheimer on April 21, 2015, 09:10:55 AM
This is one of my favorite albums (ever).
Definitely a great piece. Somehow it always reminds me of the last movement of Ives' 4th symphony. Is it just me or does anybody have the same impression?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on May 09, 2015, 12:58:53 AM
Definitely a great piece. Somehow it always reminds me of the last movement of Ives' 4th symphony. Is it just me or does anybody have the same impression?
I need to hear the Ives again, but I'll keep that in mind.

I heard Feldman's second SQ yesterday (for the first time). The six-hour one. I feel like I deserve a gold star or something.

A lot of it reminded me of Ligeti's Ramifications (a piece for 12 strings). It had a lot of similar "rocking-back-and-forth" figures. The weird part was when it ended, though. The silence for a few minutes after was eerie and uncomfortable.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 11, 2015, 01:55:06 AM
I need to hear the Ives again, but I'll keep that in mind.

I heard Feldman's second SQ yesterday (for the first time). The six-hour one. I feel like I deserve a gold star or something.

A lot of it reminded me of Ligeti's Ramifications (a piece for 12 strings). It had a lot of similar "rocking-back-and-forth" figures. The weird part was when it ended, though. The silence for a few minutes after was eerie and uncomfortable.

Wonderful!
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on July 30, 2015, 11:09:29 PM
I just got this but haven't listened to it yet:
(http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/54382003/Something+Wild.png)

I also got this and started listening to it and I must say that this is the most bizarre Feldman I've ever heard. This is Feldman on an electric guitar that's been manipulated in some way. I'm enjoying this.

(http://cdn.discogs.com/hY0zvoKyi8wKmuqtTDUD-eBi9yE=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb()/discogs-images/R-6846285-1427850317-3810.jpeg.jpg)

I saw this review of Melnikov's live Feldman. I'm intrigued:
http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/mar/15/triadic-memories-alexander-melnikov-wigmore-hall-review (http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/mar/15/triadic-memories-alexander-melnikov-wigmore-hall-review)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on August 01, 2015, 06:03:42 PM
I just got this but haven't listened to it yet:
(http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/54382003/Something+Wild.png)

I also got this and started listening to it and I must say that this is the most bizarre Feldman I've ever heard. This is Feldman on an electric guitar that's been manipulated in some way. I'm enjoying this.

(http://cdn.discogs.com/hY0zvoKyi8wKmuqtTDUD-eBi9yE=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb()/discogs-images/R-6846285-1427850317-3810.jpeg.jpg)

I saw this review of Melnikov's live Feldman. I'm intrigued:
http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/mar/15/triadic-memories-alexander-melnikov-wigmore-hall-review (http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/mar/15/triadic-memories-alexander-melnikov-wigmore-hall-review)
Follow-up: I found the Something Wild album pretty boring. As for the Akchote, it's pretty interesting. I like the sound he's produced. However, the pieces don't build to anything as they are broken up so discretely. I admire what he's done and I may return to it again. It's unique. Yet, I wonder why it has to be so disjointed.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: 7/4 on August 17, 2015, 03:24:48 PM
Follow-up: I found the Something Wild album pretty boring. As for the Akchote, it's pretty interesting. I like the sound he's produced. However, the pieces don't build to anything as they are broken up so discretely. I admire what he's done and I may return to it again. It's unique. Yet, I wonder why it has to be so disjointed.

I don't remember liking that CD much, maybe it's time to revisit...see if I connect this time.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: torut on August 22, 2015, 05:05:55 AM
Melnikov's Feldman sounds interesting. It's a bit surprising.

I only heard few Akchoté, which are arrangements of Cage's works for guitar (Harmonies, String Quartet), and I liked them a lot. Samples of Triadic Memories sounded quite strange, very different from the piano version.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987) yikes!!
Post by: Scion7 on August 22, 2015, 07:48:33 AM
Whoa!  I'd never seen this guy's face before today. 
I can see where he had lots of time for composing with a pus like that!!!   :P

What do you think of this performace?   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wHuh1yR0z8
Too bad you can't really take something like this on the road,
not unless you pair it up with Mahler or something that will draw the crowds.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987) yikes!!
Post by: milk on August 26, 2015, 07:36:30 AM
Whoa!  I'd never seen this guy's face before today. 
I can see where he had lots of time for composing with a pus like that!!!   :P

What do you think of this performace?   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wHuh1yR0z8
Too bad you can't really take something like this on the road,
not unless you pair it up with Mahler or something that will draw the crowds.
Ugh. Mahler. Sounds like a terrible pair. Better something like Reich. Doesn't Reich draw? Different as they are it's in the ballpark. Mahler is such a bummer to pair with Feldman. But yeah, not a big draw I guess.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: San Antone on September 03, 2015, 03:38:18 AM
(http://www.universaledition.com/system/html/FeldmanBesser-75cc4caa.jpg)

Morton Feldman (https://musicakaleidoscope.wordpress.com/2015/09/03/morton-feldman-january-12-1926-september-3-1987/) : died 9/3/1987

Morton Feldman was a big, brusque Jewish guy from Woodside, Queens—the son of a manufacturer of children’s coats. He worked in the family business until he was forty-four years old, and he later became a professor of music at the State University of New York at Buffalo. He died in 1987, at the age of sixty-one. To almost everyone’s surprise but his own, he turned out to be one of the major composers of the twentieth century, a sovereign artist who opened up vast, quiet, agonizingly beautiful worlds of sound.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on October 31, 2015, 05:04:53 PM
(http://player.ecmrecords.com/uploads/rothko-2378/cover.jpg)

I picked up this recently. The style is too romantic-sounding for me.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 31, 2015, 07:07:59 PM
(http://player.ecmrecords.com/uploads/rothko-2378/cover.jpg)

I picked up this recently. The style is too romantic-sounding for me.

Thanks for taking one for the team. I'll continue to cherish my California EAR Unit performance.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Scion7 on November 01, 2015, 03:02:06 AM
To almost everyone’s surprise but his own, he turned out to be one of the major composers of the twentieth century, ....

Yeah, I think that WOULD be a surprise, because he isn't.  He's a rather minor 20th century composer.  And to the general public almost completely unknown.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: springrite on November 01, 2015, 06:52:51 AM
Yeah, I think that WOULD be a surprise, because he isn't.  He's a rather minor 20th century composer.  And to the general public almost completely unknown.

Well, our standard here in 20 pages on the composer discussion board. SO he just made it.  8)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: springrite on November 01, 2015, 06:54:11 AM
Thanks for taking one for the team. I'll continue to cherish my California EAR Unit performance.

Well, that is the one to get. Dorothy Stone is second to none.  :)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on November 02, 2015, 12:29:17 AM
Thanks for taking one for the team. I'll continue to cherish my California EAR Unit performance.
I like all the CEU recordings. I don't know why I bothered with this one. Well, I wanted to check out the Cage stuff that I'm less familiar with. The Cage stuff I do know well is also better elsewhere.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on December 30, 2015, 02:05:40 PM
(http://www.leorecords.com/img/CD_LA_03049.jpg)

I've been listening to Anton Batagov play Triadic Memories.


About 40 minutes in, the emotional tone of the music changes radically. It ceases to be uplifting sunlight reflected on a calm sea and becomes threatening and dark for about 7 minutes. Then the dark timbres clear but the general feel of the music is not the same: the world has, as it were, become less comfortable and more disturbing. The cthonic timbres, clouds, recur close  the very end.

It is not music with no structure, on the contrary. This music has a beginning and a middle and an end. Neither is it true that the music is undramatic or uneventful. The last ten minutes are especially interesting, because they do resemble the first 50 minutes and yet . . .  not. And my experience listening to the end definitely involved my memory, failing memory, of what had gone before.

Listening to Feldman made me think of Schubert, which is something I've noticed before. In particular the way emotions work in the music, the way clouds are blown away to reveal sunlight, made me think of the first movement of the Schubert's 9th symphony.

I found the music disturbing, negative, unhappy.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Brewski on December 30, 2015, 02:57:39 PM
Thanks for that report, and...I gather you liked it (even though dark)? I like the piece a lot - haven't heard it in awhile - but don't recall being disturbed. Perhaps Batagov has unearthed a new angle in it.

Enjoyed the Schubert reference, with which I can empathize. I'm not a Feldman expert, but I wonder if he liked that composer.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: mjwal on December 31, 2015, 03:56:39 AM
Thanks for that report, and...I gather you liked it (even though dark)? I like the piece a lot - haven't heard it in awhile - but don't recall being disturbed. Perhaps Batagov has unearthed a new angle in it.

Enjoyed the Schubert reference, with which I can empathize. I'm not a Feldman expert, but I wonder if he liked that composer.

--Bruce

"I got a phone call from Metzger: 'Would you write something about Schubert? What do you think about Schubert?' I said 'I never think about Schubert'. I couldn't write about Schubert. If I want to think about him as a composer, I can't say very much. If  want to think about him as a genius, you don't have to say anything about him; you just say Schubert, that's enough. § He is the best example of where to put it. Just where to put it. It's not a question of periods, the place is just the key, just where he places it is so fantastic with the atmosphere. Where he places it, is the atmosphere. Not too much, it just floats." - He goes on for 3 lines, but this is the essence. I hope this is fair quotation - it's a little advertisement really for his collection, Give My Regards To Eighth Street. (p.190)
As to Triadic Memories, it was my last great Feldman experience - listening to the recording of Jean-Luc Fafchamps, which I found transfiguring in the way of L.v.B's Op.111 variations, without any resemblance at all, of course. The recording of Aki Takahashi, though flawless, somehow didn't do it for me.
PS. My first great Feldman experience came as a kind of shock: a friend with a gallery invited me to a concert of For Philip Guston in Frankfurt/Main, mid-70s (as I recall). People left, people fell asleep, I sort of drifted for all circa 4 1/2 hours of it, tuning in and out. It was literally inconceivable for me then, at the age of around 30. But I very slowly, because there was almost nothing be had on LP, began to approach his music, mainly via the very good German radio. I'm still approaching it, but I've got a bit nearer. The book is, imo, mandatory. "Instruments are like James Bond" - (p.191). You can open it anywhere and find insights nobody else ever got into - of course, half of them I can't get into either, but I can approach them.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on January 01, 2016, 01:05:11 AM
OK, OK, I've ordered Give my regards to 8th St.

I have Fafchamps' recording but I haven't listened to it all the way through. The next one I plan on hearing right through is Roger Woodard's, the beginning sounds very different, agitated, strong rhythms. Did Woodward make it with Feldman looking over his shoulder?   I guess he was part of the Feldman circle.

Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on January 01, 2016, 10:00:13 AM
OK, OK, I've ordered Give my regards to 8th St.

I have Fafchamps' recording but I haven't listened to it all the way through. The next one I plan on hearing right through is Roger Woodard's, the beginning sounds very different, agitated, strong rhythms. Did Woodward make it with Feldman looking over his shoulder?   I guess he was part of the Feldman circle.

I have banned any Feldman piece that can't fit on one disc... for good or ill... waiting for the future...


especially like to hear the Piano Trio and the Violin+SQ on one disc, if possible...
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on January 01, 2016, 10:02:49 AM
I have banned any Feldman piece that can't fit on one disc... for good or ill... waiting for the future...


especially like to hear the Piano Trio and the Violin+SQ on one disc, if possible...

The idea of a disc is sooooo old fashioned.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987) MICROCHIP YER @SS FOR FELDMAN!!!!!!
Post by: snyprrr on January 01, 2016, 10:19:44 AM
The idea of a disc is sooooo old fashioned.

eh, what's that you say sonny? (puts horn in ear)


yea, I was laughed at for mentioning CDs....


sure, i'll get a.... errrr..... MEDIA PLAYER (fuuuuuuuuu) so I can play DVDs/CDs.......

then I'll get the biochip so I can stream govermnent terrooeur updates.... ain't the future grand??? microchip yer ass for Feldman
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on June 23, 2016, 06:06:39 AM
The idea of a disc is sooooo old fashioned.

I'm still laughing at this one! :laugh:


I'm at a Feldman impasse. Here's what I got:


1) 'The Ecstasy of the Moment' 3CDs (Etcetera)

2) Zender 4 Concertos (CPO)

3) 'Orchestra' (Mode)

4) Piano and String Quartet (Nonesuch)

5) the early pieces for SQ (Vanguard)

6) 'Palais de Mari' (random various CD)

7) String Quartet (No.1) (Koch)

8)


I USED TO HAVE:

1) For Bunita marcus (HatHut)

2) For Christian Wolff (HathUT)

3) For Philip Guston (HatHut)

4) Clarinet and String Quartet (HatHut)

5) Triadic Memories (Aki Takahashi)

6) Why Patterns?/Crippled Symmetry (NewAlbion)



So,... I had gotten rid of all those HatHuts a looong time ago, for whatever dumb reason. But, I just can't stand music broken up over technological limitations- I'm still in my Feldman-single-disc mode due to lack of media funds.


Here is what I'm obviously considering:

1) Violin and Orchestra (which one? ECM or ColLegno?)

2) 'Only' (NewAlbion) seems like the perfect companion to the 'Ecstasy' set.....

3) '...Chromatic Field...'  WHICH ONE?

4) sTRING qUARTET nO.2

5) 'Viola in My Life I-IV' (ECM)

6) 'Triadic Memories'- I DO LIKE A SINGLE DISC FOR THIS. HOW IS THE MDG?????




I dunno-  what do you think?


and what of:


FOR FRANZ KLINE

FOR FRANK O'HARA

FOR DE KOONING

FALSE RELATIONSHIPS...
ROUTINE INVESTIGATIONS...
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on June 25, 2016, 12:49:38 PM
I'm still laughing at this one! :laugh:


I'm at a Feldman impasse. Here's what I got:


1) 'The Ecstasy of the Moment' 3CDs (Etcetera)

2) Zender 4 Concertos (CPO)

3) 'Orchestra' (Mode)

4) Piano and String Quartet (Nonesuch)

5) the early pieces for SQ (Vanguard)

6) 'Palais de Mari' (random various CD)

7) String Quartet (No.1) (Koch)

8)


I USED TO HAVE:

1) For Bunita marcus (HatHut)   Dunno, I'm still finding this one kind of dull... HatHut still seems the best though

2) For Christian Wolff (HathUT)

3) For Philip Guston (HatHut)

4) Clarinet and String Quartet (HatHut)  I just don't like the "noodling" clarinet. It's like 'Chromatic Field' but doesn't work for me the same

5) Triadic Memories (Aki Takahashi)  OY ---WHIIICH ONE???????

6) Why Patterns?/Crippled Symmetry (NewAlbion)



So,... I had gotten rid of all those HatHuts a looong time ago, for whatever dumb reason. But, I just can't stand music broken up over technological limitations- I'm still in my Feldman-single-disc mode due to lack of media funds.


Here is what I'm obviously considering:

1) Violin and Orchestra (which one? ECM or ColLegno?)

2) 'Only' (NewAlbion) seems like the perfect companion to the 'Ecstasy' set.....ACTUALLY,it only has two pieces 'Ecstasy' doesn't- 83% overlap

3) '...Chromatic Field...'  WHICH ONE?  Tzadik just sounds soooo boxy... the Attaca?, but it costs so much...

4) sTRING qUARTET nO.2

5) 'Viola in My Life I-IV' (ECM)  THIS IS AT THE TOP OF THE LIST, EVEN AHEAD OF VIOLIN/ORCH

6) 'Triadic Memories'- I DO LIKE A SINGLE DISC FOR THIS. HOW IS THE MDG?????




I dunno-  what do you think?


and what of:


FOR FRANZ KLINE

FOR FRANK O'HARA

FOR DE KOONING....... i FOUND THIS PRE-viola/life group kind of duller............

FALSE RELATIONSHIPS...
ROUTINE INVESTIGATIONS...


Seriously, I could use some Feldman help. I'm really finding that 'The Ecstasy of the Moment' renders so many other recitals also-rans, or what, so I'm actually happy that I don't feel the need to further explore the 50s and 60s. 

1) The ECM 'The Viola in MY Life' seems to be the next logical step- though, still , at under 40mins. it really is gonna hurt paying @$15

2) I'm still hemming an hawing over the Violin/Orch... I'm not sure I like it better than the other concertos and such...

3) FOR JOHN CAGE by Zukovsky seems to be my other option. It does seem like the very first "still life" piece.

An4) d then the CHROMATIC FIELD- but the options are quite limited0 Tzadic seems to have grating sound, and the Attaca is OOP and expensive.

5) TRIADIC MEMORIES- someone mentioned Fafchamps- I assume this is the first recording he made (there are two???). I had Takahashi, but that didn't move whomever wrote the above. WHO WHO WHO????? I never liked the Woodward, and his sound is hissy and awful.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Artem on June 30, 2016, 06:04:15 PM
It is odd that you got rid of those Feldman disks on Hat Hut. It is my understanding that they are considered to be the best representation of his recorded music. I really love For Bunita Marcus played by Kleeb.

I like Schleiermacher on MDG for Triadic Memories and would not recomend the latest Fafchamps interpretation. I mentioned it here earlier that he plays it way too loud. I never heard his first recording of that piece.

I only have Patterns in a Chromatic Field on Tzadik. I don't know if it is that specific recording or just the piece itself, but I don't like it at all.

For John Cage on MDG is a little dull.

There is this disk on Wergo by Bugallo-Williams Piano Duo that has Piece for 4 Pianos and 5 Pianos. Very nice disk, although there is a thundering piece by Varese in the middle of that CD that really breaks the mood.

I haven't listened to Feldman in a long time.  :(
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on June 30, 2016, 06:43:18 PM
It is odd that you got rid of those Feldman disks on Hat Hut. yes... I know... they were heady times... It is my understanding that they are considered to be the best representation of his recorded music. I really love For Bunita Marcus played by Kleeb. yea, I'm not sure, I think they weren't as expensive back then, yea...mm...

I like Schleiermacher on MDG for Triadic Memories  GOODand would not recomend the latest Fafchamps interpretation. I mentioned it here earlier that he plays it way too loud. I never heard his first recording of that piece.the first recording is expensive and not on YT

I only have Patterns in a Chromatic Field on Tzadik. I don't know if it is that specific recording or just the piece itself, but I don't like it at all.Is it the boxy sound? I mean, yes, it's also a"dirty" piece, almost Xenakis for Feldman

For John Cage on MDG is a little dull. Zukovsky should be the only one here

There is this disk on Wergo by Bugallo-Williams Piano Duo that has Piece for 4 Pianos and 5 Pianos. Very nice disk, although there is a thundering piece by Varese in the middle of that CD that really breaks the mood.

I haven't listened to Feldman in a long time.  :(

Feldman is the only background music i can play for the laydies... that Nonesuch Kronos disc has seen more ***** than a *******!!!!!




I figured out the pieces and recordings I wanted, and saw that they are all extrememly rare and expensive. :(
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987) FAFCHAMPS 1990
Post by: snyprrr on July 05, 2016, 06:00:40 AM


I figured out the pieces and recordings I wanted, and saw that they are all extrememly rare and expensive. :(

I think I found a copy of Fafchamps 1990...

cOLLECTING fELDMAN has now become a depressing chore....... everything "correct" is OOP and expensive as all get out...

I just can't stand when they lounge the piece into a 2CD affair...




Triadic Memories on one CD:

Fafchamps 1990 @74min??
Fafchamps 2010 74min??
A. Takahashi  @60min
Batagov 67min
Schleiermacher 80min
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987) WHY DONT I LIKE BassClarinet & Percussion?????
Post by: snyprrr on July 07, 2016, 06:47:04 PM
Bass Clarinet and Percussion(1979?)

Coming to this work cold, one may wonder what might go on here, but, frankly, this one work I really don't care to hear to much more.

 I compared the Barton Workshop and the Mode disc. An AmazonReviewer stated very good reasons why the Mode was the only one that has tuned the percussion correctly. By carefully listening, I agree- the Mode version is the only really good one (the Workshop is "fine", but doesn't have the very well recorded percussion that the Mode does). Here, the tom toms and the timpani play actual tones that the clarinet grinds into. This added dimension is not rendered very well in the Workshop (or, according to the reviewer, the other three permutations).

But, aside from having a decently rendered recording, as much as what Feldman could have wanted, I imagine, I simply find the piece extra hard to hear at the dynamics that all seem to be recorded at , and I don't find any payoff in Feldman's use of tom toms and timpani to drone out tones (though, it does work at times). Frankly, I think this piece may be based on Xenakis's 'Dmaathen' for oboe and percussion. Feldman's patterns seem to reflect some of the feeling if the Xenakis piece; it's just curious.

Frankly, I found the piece somewhat of a dud, even though it had a few moments- and yes, the Mode version should be the only one you base your opinion on. I'm actually a little sad over this... :(
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987) FOR BUNITA MARCUS
Post by: snyprrr on July 09, 2016, 08:38:20 AM
For Bunita Marcus (1986?)

I lump 'For Bunita Marcus' and 'Piano, Violin, Viola, Cello' together, as almost the same piece, for having the same, "mushy", agenda, unlike the more melodically inclined 'Triadic Memories' and 'Piano and String Quartet'. (please don't argue: you know what I mean, LOL!)

I used to have Kleeb, but, for some reason I dumped all my HatHut decades ago. If I were trying to reacquaint myself with this piece, where should I go? The only criticism of Kleeb's recording is that there could be a little bigger acoustic. I seem to recall liking the close, soft and puffy with no reverb recording, but, I'd like to try a different take. Here are the options:

Kleeb (HatHut...art)
Ginsburgh recording is very close and somewhat hard
Liebner (2CDs... disqualified from this survey)
Schleiermacher
Hinterhauser  the small sample sounded good
Ilic
very up front and present recording, but ample and soft, not hard...but pretty big


The Ginsburgh recording's up-front and "hard" recording does not please my ears at all, leaving the last three, of which I can find little in the way of samples (just a brief, but promising, Hinterhauser). I hear good things about all three, with Schl/macher getting added notice for the distant-yet-compelling piano image (which might work better than his 'Triadic Memories')

Can anyone definitively help here?... or... not?,,,,
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on July 09, 2016, 09:06:37 PM
Piano, Violin, Viola, Cello (1987)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987) WHY DONT I LIKE BassClarinet & Percussion?????
Post by: Scion7 on July 09, 2016, 09:28:39 PM
Bass Clarinet and Percussion(1979?)

Frankly, I found the piece somewhat of a dud, even though it had a few moments- and yes, the Mode version should be the only one you base your opinion on. I'm actually a little sad over this... :( 

Maybe it needed the likes of Eric Dolphy or Anthony Braxton to interpret it?   8)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987) WHY DONT I LIKE BassClarinet & Percussion?????
Post by: snyprrr on July 10, 2016, 08:01:47 AM
Maybe it needed the likes of Eric Dolphy or Anthony Braxton to interpret it?   8)

Perhaps, though there's so little going on, I wonder what they would make of it... huh!?!

I'm finding the problem with me here is all that untuned percussion... cymbals whooshing, and all this low level "noise", which, frankly, doesn't seem to carry the mathematical weight of, say, Xenakis. Rihm's percussion technique could also use a lesson from IX, imo.

Frankly, frankly, someone would have to radically reinterpret this piece for me to "get it". If what I've heard already is "it", well, there doesn't seem to be much "there" there.


I'm starting to totally dismiss works that I have to strain to hear. That's one good thing about Xenakis- everything's always either "on", or "off"... very rarely is there a pianissimo passage in Xenakis, and when there is, it carries a lot of weight. Many times, Feldman can be the same, but, I think the danger with him is the self-consciousness of the performer over,-, or under-doing it.


Maybe a HatHut 'Bass Clarinet and Percussion' would have been interesting?



Again, Feldman seems to fall apart for me when it comes to things like cymbals and chimes and gongs, which are less prone to being controlled than a cello with a mute. eh?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987) PIANO, VIOLIN, VIOLA, CELLO
Post by: snyprrr on July 10, 2016, 08:14:04 AM
Piano, Violin, Viola, Cello (1987)

HatHut Artists (Snidjers, van der Haar,...)
Quartet KLIMPT
Bridge Artists (Karis, Macomber, Finkel,...)
Bvhaast Artists (Aki Takahashi, piano)


The Japanese artists take 2CDs for this piece, which I must count as a disqualifier for the purposes of this survey. The other new editions both appear to have come out in 2015. After a cursory listen, I still think the original HatHut recording does the best in terms of blending the piano and strings (the Bridge piano image is a little too big for me; the Stradivarius recording integrates better) and of having that dull, dead ambience that seems to work so well for this particular piece. The Bridge recording is TOO clear and just seemed to bring attention to itself; the Italian version seemed close to the HatHut, but a little more "alive" sounding, which isn't necessarily a perfect thing here, but I's like to hear more. All three are on YT for comparison.






I think there's a little too much reverence for Feldman...



Feldman's not the kind of Composer you want to do a "Complete Cello Music" of, like we've been seeing. It always seems to augur a 2CD breakup of the main, long, piece.



rant: OFF


Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on July 12, 2016, 05:46:23 AM
I'm glad to see Feldman activity here and that snyprrr is on it. I've nothing to add to the discussion...except that Crippled and For Philip are among my favorites. Why Patterns too (give me a piano, flute and percussion every day!). Noël Akchoté has a bunch of weird electric guitar arrangements of Feldman, in case anyone is looking for that sort of thing. Hmm...definitely a Xenakis/Feldman program would be my most desirable concert to see. Wake up! Go to sleep! Wake up! Go to sleep! Wake up!
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on July 12, 2016, 01:58:06 PM
(http://www.leorecords.com/img/CD_LA_03049.jpg)

I've been listening to Anton Batagov play Triadic Memories.


About 40 minutes in, the emotional tone of the music changes radically. It ceases to be uplifting sunlight reflected on a calm sea and becomes threatening and dark for about 7 minutes. Then the dark timbres clear but the general feel of the music is not the same: the world has, as it were, become less comfortable and more disturbing. The cthonic timbres, clouds, recur close  the very end.

It is not music with no structure, on the contrary. This music has a beginning and a middle and an end. Neither is it true that the music is undramatic or uneventful. The last ten minutes are especially interesting, because they do resemble the first 50 minutes and yet . . .  not. And my experience listening to the end definitely involved my memory, failing memory, of what had gone before.

Listening to Feldman made me think of Schubert, which is something I've noticed before. In particular the way emotions work in the music, the way clouds are blown away to reveal sunlight, made me think of the first movement of the Schubert's 9th symphony.

I found the music disturbing, negative, unhappy.

I'm glad to see Feldman activity here and that snyprrr is on it. I've nothing to add to the discussion...except that Crippled and For Philip are among my favorites. Why Patterns too (give me a piano, flute and percussion every day!). Noël Akchoté has a bunch of weird electric guitar arrangements of Feldman, in case anyone is looking for that sort of thing. Hmm...definitely a Xenakis/Feldman program would be my most desirable concert to see. Wake up! Go to sleep! Wake up! Go to sleep! Wake up!

Triadic Memories (Fafchamps- 1990)

Well, huh, found a copy of Fafchamps's 1990 SubRosa recital.  He runs 74:23, whereas Takahashi runs @60mins., and Batagov @67. I'm about the fourth time through here this afternoon, having put it on at random throughout the last days and nights.

Fafchamps's piano image is pretty big- ALMOST warbling, but tantalizingly not- yet, there is a sweet acoustic "plonk" in the high register- there IS some nice acoustical space here, but, just behind the image. It's right there on the edge- it could've been bad, but sits just under that loud/dry threshold, and sounds just nicely rounded to me... just so.

Maybe it could be better, but, we certainly don't want the image too far away and lose detail. How does Schleiermacher sound?


So, this whole high minded thing about memory that Feldman is trying to put forth- I don't buy it. I feel I'm "remembering" just fine when I'm hearing- and it goes on very nicely and thoughtfully... I don't know what the big fuss is about, even though I get the whole "big canvas" thing... the whole "deep hues of blue and grey" with splotches of colour here and there.

So, that middle sections, is that supposed to be "memories" of Schubert or something? It's by no means an explicit quote of any kind, it just seems that in his own way, feldman is playing the "remember?" game.


Anyhow, the Fafchamps 1990 recording, FINALLY!!- decades later!!- and yes, I'd probably have swerved a little had I actually picked it up when i saw it back in the day. I certainly see this as "fast" music, and Ichafe at hearing some of these 2 hour ordeals. I used to have Woodward, but could never get over the horrible Etcetera sound... blech!! Fafchamps kicks off Feldman month here. En route are:


CLARINET AND STRING QUARTET- Roger Heaton (Metier): I never did like this piece (used to have HatHut), and Heaton showed me why. All the other recordings (HatHut, Mode, Feldman/Babbitt) place all protagonists equally- Heaton pl,aces the first violin alongside the clarinet, making for much more duo-like interest- and the band plays with Xenakis-like "no vibrato". For those who like this piece, please try this Heaton.

FOR BUNITA MARCUS- Steffen Schleiermacher (MDG): it was between him and Hinterhauser. I used to have Kleeb- yes, I should have kept it, but, "they" say that the only thing she could have used was a little ambience in the studio. I believe either of the two gentlemen provide something more modern. I hear that the MDG recording is a good mariage between piano image and background; let's hope so.

FOR JOHN CAGE- (HatHut): it was between this and the Zukofsky, which, though pretty well as authentic as one could get, has a somewhat "hard" piano image. The HatHut has a nice, sweet "plonk" in the upper register, belying the more open acoustic. As far as playing, Zukovsky does get "that" tone, but the Ives's player seems to keep up just fine, and has a little more modern tone and plasticity.

UNTITLED COMPOSITION FOR CELLO AND PIANO- (Attaca): the Attaca is a 1CD affair that has a more pleasant sound environment than the Tzadik, imo. Well,  not really my opinion, it's pretty clear the Tzadik recording is dry and in your face, perhaps highlighting the sound of a NYC car horn extravaganza. I prefer a more normal perspective, which the Attaca seems to deliver.

TRIO (HatHut): haven't pulled the plug yet on this one, Feldman's most curiously boisterous, hiccuping and spurting piece next to the above cello work. Trio will probably later...



Hopefully these should all arrive shortly...



All that remained was which of the 'Violin and Orchestra' recordings, and 'The Viola in My Life', to check out. Have you heard the Bridge disc with 'Viola IV' and 'Instruments 2'?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987) CHROMATIC PATTERNS
Post by: snyprrr on July 14, 2016, 03:20:50 PM
Patterns in A Chromatic Field/ Untitled Composition for Cello and Piano (1981)

Here's another piece I needed a single CD for, of which there are two, the old Attaca (1990) and the much newer Tzadik. Many have commented on the dry acoustic of the Tzadik; the Attaca has a very nice ambience- it's just a shade farther away, but everything plops right out of the speaker with no problem (it seems to want to be a fixed position just under the threshold). At least the Attaca is Tracked Randomly, 1-9).

This is definitely one odd little piece here. Kooky almost. It's like 'Exercises' just keep popping up and staying their turn, only to be replaced by either something similar, or something totally different. There are a lot of fun little sections with lots of notes, then followed by a more typical Feldmanesque slow section (though, all is in one, plodding, tempo).

This piece also sounds like his "dirtiest" piece, even though everything is noted in great detail. One gets to hear a little "fuzz" when the cellist has to play something obviously very difficult. This work really sounds like a recorded improvisation or controlled material,... uh, whatever that means...

This is certainly fun to listen to, and is, along with 'Trio', and maybe 'Violin and Orchestra', the height of his more "mixed-it-up" period right before 'Triadic memories' and 'For John Cage' took things in the other direction.

Someone here didn't like the Tzadik (probably due to the close micing): the Attaca certainly has a charm to it.  I'd also like to hear Rohan de Saram on HatHut, though it's 2CDs.


1) Berman/Wierenga (Attaca) "Untitled Composition" (1CD)
2) Tzadik (1CD)
3) MDG  (1CD) I think
4) HatHut (de Saram) (2CDs)
5) Aeon (Descharmes?) 2CDs)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987) IF ANYONE QUESTIONS MY ______!!!!!!
Post by: snyprrr on July 18, 2016, 08:03:45 AM
OK< I just spent way too much money on a Used copy of the ColLegno disc of Violin and Orchestra/Coptic Light. Apparently it was what was needed in order to break this Feldman "thing" I've been into here lately. I mean, it was getting ridiculous- when I find myself having to come up with excuses for liking something, I know there's a problem. Objectivity concerning Feldman was waning... I might have just started buyBuyBUYing moreMoreMORE Feldman... for no other reason than for Materialism's sake. This was actually the most desirable issue, and I just bit the bullet.

There is nothing left but the multi-disc issues, of which only SQ2 is on the radar. I could rather hear 'Why Patterns?' than the three longer works of the same basic grouping (CrippSym, ForPhG, ForChW). I'm just about done with Morty here...




Piano 1977

Tilbury seems to be the only one who treats this piece with a little more "balls" than anyone else. His recording is also up-close... usually I don't like that, but here it seems to highlight the piece's rougher quality. Does anyone else punch this piece up a little, or not? All the other samples I've heard start the piece of much less aggressively. But, this IS in Feldman's "aggressive" period ('Patterns/Chromatic Field'), so, I'd be assuming you could play this one a little more "funky"???...???...???
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987) IF ANYONE QUESTIONS MY ______!!!!!!
Post by: North Star on July 18, 2016, 08:20:12 AM
OK< I just spent way too much money on a Used copy of the ColLegno disc of Violin and Orchestra/Coptic Light.
I hope you didn't pay more than the Carolin Widmann V&O and the CPO Durations I-V & Coptic Light cost together. . .
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: EigenUser on July 18, 2016, 09:49:25 AM
So, that middle sections, is that supposed to be "memories" of Schubert or something? It's by no means an explicit quote of any kind, it just seems that in his own way, feldman is playing the "remember?" game.

I read something where Feldman said that the title has a double meaning -- triadic as in triads in music, but also there were three performers who he often wrote for (Feldman usually wrote pieces with performers in mind while composing). Aki Takahashi, Roger Woodward, and another person I forget the name of.

Snyprrr, what do you think of Coptic Light?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987) IF ANYONE QUESTIONS MY ______!!!!!!
Post by: snyprrr on July 18, 2016, 10:07:17 AM
I hope you didn't pay more than the Carolin Widmann V&O and the CPO Durations I-V & Coptic Light cost together. . .

Ahhhhh- well, I DID do all the various permutation exercises. I already have the 'Durations' on the Barton Workshop set, and ... well, here's the breakdown:

EITHER GET:

A) Widmann and the 'Viola/Life' ECM + some random 'Coptic'...

B) get the CRI 'Viola/Life' + the Bridge disc with 'Viola IV' + Widmann + random 'Coptic'...

C) get the ColLegno and f*** the 'Viola' s*** for the time being ...

D) get everything

E) get nothing

F) ?????



Well, actually, doing the math, I spent abou $10 more than your suggestion, which isn't so bad. The CPO disc is pretty cheap r I was wrong... I spent about twice :o...


Both of those ECM discs are HIGHLY SHORT on time, though... under 40mins. for the 'Viola/Life'...


LOL, I actually do believe I made the right decision... had I got your suggestion it might have sent me on another CDCDCD episode...



To be fair, the ColLegno disc was at about $50, and then just yesterday I saw it for $32,... and... it SEEMED like a no-brainer (hence...)...




(veiled cry for help)




PLEASE- JUSTIFY ME!!!!!!



Snyprrr, what do you think of Coptic Light?

lISTENED TO eOTVOS LAST NIGHT, @21MINS. (AS OPPOSED TO mtt'S 29MINS.)     (whoops)      Was reading how the NYPhil. was "barking like dogs" at Feldman during rehearsals... oh, the horror!!....

I find Feldman's mushy, "Persian rug" phase so much less melodically pleasing (as opposed to the "still life" period)... Bunita-PVVC-For Beckett-Coptic... but, as "mushy" goes... I liked 'Coptic' from Eotvos... I like the rolling/tumbling piano figure, the "palimpsest" style "unfolding"... with Feldman, the more instruments the better for me sometimes, and this being one of the last... I've had 'For Samual Beckett' since forever, but I always found it "mushy" and only something I'd have on in the background,... but I just never liked the non-melodiousness... why couldn't he have just had a Big melody like 'For PhG' or 'TriMem'? Why did it have to be "waves crashing on the shore" monotony?

Oh, and the whole "to show the monotonousness of life during the holocaust" thing.........no.



But, if 'Coptic' also comes withy 'Viollin and orchestra', how can I complain? :-\
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987) IF ANYONE QUESTIONS MY [sanity???]
Post by: EigenUser on July 18, 2016, 11:41:45 AM
lISTENED TO eOTVOS LAST NIGHT, @21MINS. (AS OPPOSED TO mtt'S 29MINS.)     (whoops)      Was reading how the NYPhil. was "barking like dogs" at Feldman during rehearsals... oh, the horror!!....

I find Feldman's mushy, "Persian rug" phase so much less melodically pleasing (as opposed to the "still life" period)... Bunita-PVVC-For Beckett-Coptic... but, as "mushy" goes... I liked 'Coptic' from Eotvos... I like the rolling/tumbling piano figure, the "palimpsest" style "unfolding"... with Feldman, the more instruments the better for me sometimes, and this being one of the last... I've had 'For Samual Beckett' since forever, but I always found it "mushy" and only something I'd have on in the background,... but I just never liked the non-melodiousness... why couldn't he have just had a Big melody like 'For PhG' or 'TriMem'? Why did it have to be "waves crashing on the shore" monotony?

Oh, and the whole "to show the monotonousness of life during the holocaust" thing.........no.



But, if 'Coptic' also comes withy 'Viollin and orchestra', how can I complain? :-\
yessssssss! I love the "rolling piano figures" in Coptic Light! And the timpani mixed with cello pizzicato! I get irrationally excited about this piece of music. Tilson Thomas is my favorite recording, but I also like the one with SWR (curiously paired with Bruckner 8 -- a great idea, if for no other reason than to give the piece more exposure).

Here is page 3 of the score:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/2ualk43sxc32m8w/CopticLight_Score_P3.jpeg)
 :o

I mean, how could Feldman possibly know what it would sound like while he was writing it?! Look at those last two lines with the divisi harmonics in treble clef -- those are the basses! How do you even come up with something like that?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987) FOR SAMUEL BECKETT....ZZzzZZZzZZZzzzZZzZ
Post by: snyprrr on July 19, 2016, 10:22:44 AM
yessssssss! I love the "rolling piano figures" in Coptic Light! And the timpani mixed with cello pizzicato! I get irrationally excited about this piece of music. Tilson Thomas is my favorite recording, but I also like the one with SWR (curiously paired with Bruckner 8 -- a great idea, if for no other reason than to give the piece more exposure).

Here is page 3 of the score:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/2ualk43sxc32m8w/CopticLight_Score_P3.jpeg)
 :o

I mean, how could Feldman possibly know what it would sound like while he was writing it?! Look at those last two lines with the divisi harmonics in treble clef -- those are the basses! How do you even come up with something like that?

I've had a slight revelation. Listen to some choice Late Xenakis, you know, his, uh, "boring" phase, so to speak. I almost think IX could've come around to a 'Coptic Light' kind of feel. The secret between them is in the way they blur the bar line by all those finely graded starting points around the bar line... so, here's how you can Compose like this:

Get that "Sibelius" software or something... get a comparable orchestra setting, - then start with the double basses (say four), and then just, one at a time, improvise the whole piece before you. Then, you can either beef up the bottom end, or start adding flutes or piano. By the time you've improvised out all (say 88 instruments), then you should have quite a rolling, tumbling ball of kinetic electrical fuzz that can either be pruned, or what not.

Also, 'Coptic' has that "palimpsest" quality about it, like layers constantly being peeled back,- like that piano figure is like pebbles in a drum going around, tumbling again, being peeled away, onion layers.




For Samuel Beckett (Mosko)

Just listened through... mm... I still find it awesomely boring... and I don't like the rainy-day/gray-day imagery... it just sounds like mush to me... BUT,... lol, I still kinda like it! if just that it's good wall paper music. But,this was my really first exposure to Feldman, out-of-the-blue at a UsedRecordStore in the early '90s,... I think the impetus had been Nyman's book, was it 'New Sounds'? Well, I was looking more for NewAge at the time, something consistently fuzzy, and this piece sure had potential, but I always wished it sounded more like 'Piano & SQ', or 'TriMem', MORE MELODY.

And please don't tell me I have to listen for the melodies, lol.- I did

ANYHOW, who do you like in FSB?

Mosko (Newport)
CPO
HatHut (Tamayo)
Kairos

Mosko has always gotten the better review. It sounds great to me... that's why I always wondered why this MUSIC does nothing for me...


it's just too nice outside to put it on!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987) HEARTBROKEN :( :( :( :(
Post by: snyprrr on July 20, 2016, 01:51:02 PM
yessssssss! I love the "rolling piano figures" in Coptic Light! And the timpani mixed with cello pizzicato! I get irrationally excited about this piece of music. Tilson Thomas is my favorite recording, but I also like the one with SWR (curiously paired with Bruckner 8 -- a great idea, if for no other reason than to give the piece more exposure).

Here is page 3 of the score:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/2ualk43sxc32m8w/CopticLight_Score_P3.jpeg)
 :o

I mean, how could Feldman possibly know what it would sound like while he was writing it?! Look at those last two lines with the divisi harmonics in treble clef -- those are the basses! How do you even come up with something like that?

 :'( :'( :'(
 :'( :'( :'(
 :'( :'( :'( :'(

sO, i got the ColLegno Violin/Coptic,... and, for everyone's sanities's sake, I went straight to the 'Coptic' to see how this stood up.


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???


The piano figure is nowhere to be heard,... oh, no,... there it is, buried, buried, buried in the mix,... it's all french horns in this recording... head spinning,... nausea,...$$$$$.... overpaid.... oh, feel a nosebleed coming on....


I'm now almost all the way through, and I'm just in shock. Sure, it's a 'live' recording, but that shouldn't matter. It sounds so much like that mushy 'For samuel Beckett' I was ranting about yesterday. :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(


Yea, so, all that great percussion and piano are just lost lost lost,... I hear the harp... it's all strings and soft brassy, french horns or something,...


OK, it's over.....





UGH- wow, had I note heard the others I might have thought it was a middlin' Feldman piece, not very impressive at all. WOW, I'm in shock,... NO PIANO,... the only thing I really liked,... and it held the piece together too, and here, nada, zip, blatt, dzzzz....


I also heard the first minute of the VC... the orchestra sounded good, but I wondered if Faust needed to be just a hair closer to the mic? I'll get to that later,... now I just need to recuperate from that almost $40 enema,... oh yeeeeessss, I AM feelin it THERE, LOL!!!      f***ed myself on that one......



And here I thought I had mad the "right choice" lol, oh, - this is like an overacted death scene.... ahhh.....ahhhh......ahhhh (library books crashing).....
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987) VIOLIN & ORCHESTRA
Post by: snyprrr on July 24, 2016, 06:28:39 PM
Violin and Orchestra (1979)

Well, if 50mins. doesn't seem like a long time with Feldman, why does it with Pettersson?

hmmm... or maybe not?

Enjoyed my third time through, second with Faust. I just like recollecting the colors and shapes- it becomes kind of its own painting in your mind. I can see some of the cartoony surrealism, just for the feel of it.


sorry, more tired than thought...zzZzzZzzzzzzz...
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987) EARLY ENSEMBLE WORKS
Post by: snyprrr on July 29, 2016, 10:19:54 AM
Projection 2 (1951)

Projection 5 (1951)
Durations 1 (1960)
Durations 5 (1961)

Vertical Thoughts 3 (1963)
Vertical thoughts 5 (1963)


To me, 'Projection 1' seems like Feldman's "Symphony a la Webern". It's the most pointallistic(?) piece of his I've come across. As dry as it is, there is a certain mood set, and the bleeps and plonks work for me. The Barton/Etcetera recording is also quite dry, highlighting the silences. I think the trumpet did it for me.

'Projection 5' seems very different to me. Here, the note values begin to lengthen to more Feldmanesque "durations". At the end, all comes together to form one of those Feldman melodies that we all like,- wasn't expecting that this early on.

With the 'Duratios', the note values continue to lengthen, and these two are much mellower. The 'Vertical Thoughts' add a soprano to the ensemble; here we seem to have a mixture of long and short values- one hears very clearly the Feldman language...

sorry, again don't feel like writing... :(
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on July 29, 2016, 03:29:57 PM
Feldman, more than any other composer, has mastered the art of sustaining my attention with barely any material or development over extended periods of time. I haven't heard much Pettersson but 50 minutes of Feldman always feels remarkably short....maybe because I am a fan of much of his late compositions especially from the 80s.

snyprrr, please recommend me a good place to start with his earlier works! I find your comments very very very very very very very interesting
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987) HEARTBROKEN :( :( :( :(
Post by: EigenUser on July 29, 2016, 03:45:43 PM
:'( :'( :'(
 :'( :'( :'(
 :'( :'( :'( :'(

sO, i got the ColLegno Violin/Coptic,... and, for everyone's sanities's sake, I went straight to the 'Coptic' to see how this stood up.


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???


The piano figure is nowhere to be heard,... oh, no,... there it is, buried, buried, buried in the mix,... it's all french horns in this recording... head spinning,... nausea,...$$$$$.... overpaid.... oh, feel a nosebleed coming on....


I'm now almost all the way through, and I'm just in shock. Sure, it's a 'live' recording, but that shouldn't matter. It sounds so much like that mushy 'For samuel Beckett' I was ranting about yesterday. :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(


Yea, so, all that great percussion and piano are just lost lost lost,... I hear the harp... it's all strings and soft brassy, french horns or something,...


OK, it's over.....
I don't think I've heard this recording, but now I'm curious to hear it even though you don't seem to care much for it.

Projection 2 (1951)

Projection 5 (1951)
Durations 1 (1960)
Durations 5 (1961)

Vertical Thoughts 3 (1963)
Vertical thoughts 5 (1963)


To me, 'Projection 1' seems like Feldman's "Symphony a la Webern". It's the most pointallistic(?) piece of his I've come across. As dry as it is, there is a certain mood set, and the bleeps and plonks work for me. The Barton/Etcetera recording is also quite dry, highlighting the silences. I think the trumpet did it for me.
I think that Webern and Feldman have a lot in common, even though their methods of composing music were vastly different.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on July 31, 2016, 06:15:32 AM
Feldman, more than any other composer, has mastered the art of sustaining my attention with barely any material or development over extended periods of time. I haven't heard much Pettersson but 50 minutes of Feldman always feels remarkably short....maybe because I am a fan of much of his late compositions especially from the 80s.

snyprrr, please recommend me a good place to start with his earlier works! I find your comments very very very very very very very interesting

I have the Barton Workshop set, so it's quite conveniently an almost "all-in-one" overview up until 1979. I'm not sure how to approach the earlier works in another way... I know this set is probably bery expensive, most of it can be had by the Mode Cycle...

The most interesting (to me) piece that I heard recently was the 'Projection 2' for ensemble, the one that sounded the most like Webern. BUT, you know, these pieces are all kind of short...... yea, really, the only way to explore Early Feldman might be Mode. There are about four in that series that concentrate on the early. I think they are:

1) "Composing By Numbers"
2) "First Recordings"
3) "Indeterminate Works"
4) "Voices and Instruments"

He has:

Projections
Intermissions
Intersections
Extensions
Durations
Vertical Thoughts


Yes, it's confusing...


I don't think I've heard this recording, but now I'm curious to hear it even though you don't seem to care much for it.
I think that Webern and Feldman have a lot in common, even though their methods of composing music were vastly different.

That Rundel still only made me want to hear the Zender CL. I'll try it again... I'm still even more shocked that the piece actually has TWO pianos that cannot really be heard...??





I've been enjoying the Stradivarius 'Piano,Violin,Viola,Cello', not as "dead and white marble" sounding as the HatHut, a little more "liveliness" in the acoustic... huh, yea,... it's still the same music. I'd still go with the HH if I could, but this one is really very good, and the piano isn't as loud as in the Bridge version (Karis always getting clunky piano sound from Bridge?????).

Then I did the unheard of, and actually plunked in the Kronos/Takahashi disc, ... and actually listened closely!! Wow, this is still THE piece, imo. I had forgotten how... palpable the sensuouslyness(what's the rule on those words again???) was... also, the main theme is in PVVC also, at the very end, and, it is also in 'Piano and Orchestra'.

P+SQ and PVVC are in my "sleep" rotation now... along with 'For Bunita Marcus' (Schleiermacher for the win here!!!)........
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987) STRING QUARTET NO.2
Post by: snyprrr on July 31, 2016, 06:18:25 AM
I'm almost ready for SQ2... not quite just yet... will have to be the last purchase of the year, after car maintain...


So, the eternal question: HatHut or Mode?

Yea, I know, I'll probably haaave to get both eventually...
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987) STRING QUARTET NO.2
Post by: EigenUser on July 31, 2016, 10:32:54 AM
I'm almost ready for SQ2... not quite just yet... will have to be the last purchase of the year, after car maintain...
I've listened to Feldman's entire 2nd SQ. Last year I was a teaching assistant for a fairly big class (~100 students) and I had put off grading the last two homeworks of the semester (well, not so much "put off", but I was busy with research stuff). That meant I had 200 homework assignments to grade. I spent the day listening to the string quartet while grading.

The weirdest part for me was the end. It just stopped. And there was this incredibly tense, nearly-unbearably eerie silence. It bothered me for 10-15 minutes after the piece ended. I felt like I was still listening to the quartet, but it was just a "blank" section of the piece. No piece has ever done that to me before.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on July 31, 2016, 02:15:32 PM
@snyprrr thanks snyprrr for the recommendation
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on July 31, 2016, 02:17:23 PM
I've listened to Feldman's entire 2nd SQ. Last year I was a teaching assistant for a fairly big class (~100 students) and I had put off grading the last two homeworks of the semester (well, not so much "put off", but I was busy with research stuff). That meant I had 200 homework assignments to grade. I spent the day listening to the string quartet while grading.

The weirdest part for me was the end. It just stopped. And there was this incredibly tense, nearly-unbearably eerie silence. It bothered me for 10-15 minutes after the piece ended. I felt like I was still listening to the quartet, but it was just a "blank" section of the piece. No piece has ever done that to me before.
I haven't listened to this piece yet; the longest work I've heard of his is For Philip Guston because I only had about 4 and a half hours spare once rather than 6. With a busy schedule it seems hard to find 6 hours in one go that I can spend with this piece......

But wow that it an interesting story of your experience with the ending. Never heard of anything like that before. :o
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on August 01, 2016, 12:25:59 AM
I'm still laughing at this one! :laugh:


I'm at a Feldman impasse. Here's what I got:


1) 'The Ecstasy of the Moment' 3CDs (Etcetera)

2) Zender 4 Concertos (CPO)

3) 'Orchestra' (Mode)

4) Piano and String Quartet (Nonesuch)

5) the early pieces for SQ (Vanguard)

6) 'Palais de Mari' (random various CD)

7) String Quartet (No.1) (Koch)

8)


I USED TO HAVE:

1) For Bunita marcus (HatHut)

2) For Christian Wolff (HathUT)

3) For Philip Guston (HatHut)

4) Clarinet and String Quartet (HatHut)

5) Triadic Memories (Aki Takahashi)

6) Why Patterns?/Crippled Symmetry (NewAlbion)



So,... I had gotten rid of all those HatHuts a looong time ago, for whatever dumb reason. But, I just can't stand music broken up over technological limitations- I'm still in my Feldman-single-disc mode due to lack of media funds.


Here is what I'm obviously considering:

1) Violin and Orchestra (which one? ECM or ColLegno?)

2) 'Only' (NewAlbion) seems like the perfect companion to the 'Ecstasy' set.....

3) '...Chromatic Field...'  WHICH ONE?

4) sTRING qUARTET nO.2

5) 'Viola in My Life I-IV' (ECM)

6) 'Triadic Memories'- I DO LIKE A SINGLE DISC FOR THIS. HOW IS THE MDG?????




I dunno-  what do you think?


and what of:


FOR FRANZ KLINE

FOR FRANK O'HARA

FOR DE KOONING

FALSE RELATIONSHIPS...
ROUTINE INVESTIGATIONS...

I didn't see this post till today. My Feldman life has been fallow apart from really getting into Triadic Memories. Fafchamps and Batagov.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on August 01, 2016, 11:47:39 AM
I didn't see this post till today. My Feldman life has been fallow apart from really getting into Triadic Memories. Fafchamps and Batagov.

I would love to hear analysis between Fafchamps'90 and Batagov.... :)...
chleiermacher's 'For Bunita marcus
I might suggest S                                     

  .... can someone tell me how this texting bs happens to me ALL THE TIME???? You see here what happened? What flippin key did I accidentally hit? This technology bs is beyond me.... my fingers HAAAAATE computers..... f u  tech bs.......


AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


OK, back to feldman.... try Schleiermacher's 'For Bunita Marcus', if you want to stick with piano,... otherwise, I'd suggest the Kronos/Takahashi disc...
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on August 03, 2016, 09:37:47 AM
cage bump
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on September 04, 2016, 09:35:52 PM
I've been listening to his opera Neither lately,  it's instantly one of my favourite operas (alongside operas such as Le Grand Macabre, Bluebeard's Castle, Tristan and Isolde, Licht Cycle , Oresteia)

I feel the connection to Webern's music so strongly, at the same time as being so unique.
I've heard quite a few Feldman pieces before but none of them have effected me quite as deeply, really I haven't really heard anything before that comes close to Neither.

Nethertheless I'm highly impressed!  ;)

What is Oresteia?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on December 20, 2016, 02:44:20 AM
https://youtu.be/emeDjNSxsCs (https://youtu.be/emeDjNSxsCs)
Just started watching this but already it is extremely interesting. Grateful!
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: San Antone on July 28, 2017, 12:35:56 AM
New from Hyperion (image links to recording page)

Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
For Bunita Marcus
Marc-André Hamelin (piano)

(http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/034571280486.png) (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDA68048&utm_medium=DM&utm_source=DM2017_08&dm_i=10ZR,50RWL,JL36XM,J5L5P,1)



From the booklet essay ~

‘I have no problem with notes … none at all’, was Feldman’s cryptic comment on For Bunita Marcus.

You are about to enter a world unlike any other. A universe of sound completely unrelated to the narrative, linear musical physiognomies we are all used to. With For Bunita Marcus Feldman has managed to wipe the slate clean and invent a world which has its own laws, which must be dealt with in its own terms. It is also a domain of extreme economy of means, both in its radically reduced dynamics and in its uncommon textural sparseness. The miraculous thing, though, is that there are so many dimensions within this seemingly limited material that it is entirely possible for the listener to understand the music in many different ways, and also to be affected by it in different ways.

The first time I sat down at the piano to read Feldman’s piece, I initially experienced a beautiful sense of liberation. In all my years of exploring the more obscure regions of the literature for my instrument, I’d never felt anything like it. A seventy-two-minute stretch of delicate, triple-piano textures with the damper pedal held constantly down is not something that any amount of exposure to traditional repertoire could ever prepare pianists for. But as the piece unfolded I was carried through a conflicting host of impressions, and it became clearer and clearer to me that a single hearing of it could never reveal the myriad ways in which the work can be listened to and understood.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on July 29, 2017, 06:22:58 AM
New from Hyperion (image links to recording page)

Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
For Bunita Marcus
Marc-André Hamelin (piano)

(http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/034571280486.png) (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDA68048&utm_medium=DM&utm_source=DM2017_08&dm_i=10ZR,50RWL,JL36XM,J5L5P,1)



From the booklet essay ~

‘I have no problem with notes … none at all’, was Feldman’s cryptic comment on For Bunita Marcus.

You are about to enter a world unlike any other. A universe of sound completely unrelated to the narrative, linear musical physiognomies we are all used to. With For Bunita Marcus Feldman has managed to wipe the slate clean and invent a world which has its own laws, which must be dealt with in its own terms. It is also a domain of extreme economy of means, both in its radically reduced dynamics and in its uncommon textural sparseness. The miraculous thing, though, is that there are so many dimensions within this seemingly limited material that it is entirely possible for the listener to understand the music in many different ways, and also to be affected by it in different ways.

The first time I sat down at the piano to read Feldman’s piece, I initially experienced a beautiful sense of liberation. In all my years of exploring the more obscure regions of the literature for my instrument, I’d never felt anything like it. A seventy-two-minute stretch of delicate, triple-piano textures with the damper pedal held constantly down is not something that any amount of exposure to traditional repertoire could ever prepare pianists for. But as the piece unfolded I was carried through a conflicting host of impressions, and it became clearer and clearer to me that a single hearing of it could never reveal the myriad ways in which the work can be listened to and understood.

well well well...hmmmm.....yes, can't wait...
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on July 29, 2017, 06:32:12 AM
well well well...hmmmm.....yes, can't wait...

How much of For Bunita Marcus have you heard?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on July 30, 2017, 06:02:53 AM
How much of For Bunita Marcus have you heard?

I found Kleeb somewhat bland, but Schliermacher(?) quite... lol... scintillating. Basically, it comes down to the recording- I'd assume the Hyperion would be great, but the engineers at MDG caught just the right perspective, giving the tones a bit of air. I didn't really care for the piece under Kleeb (probably not her fault?), but the Schleiermacher made me love it.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on August 01, 2017, 11:25:07 AM
I found Kleeb somewhat bland, but Schliermacher(?) quite... lol... scintillating. Basically, it comes down to the recording- I'd assume the Hyperion would be great, but the engineers at MDG caught just the right perspective, giving the tones a bit of air. I didn't really care for the piece under Kleeb (probably not her fault?), but the Schleiermacher made me love it.

I think this was a good suggestion. I too had been listening to Kleeb because I like the cover design of those cds. But I could never get through more than 15 minutes. Amazingly, I've listened to the whole thing from Schleiermacher.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: bwv 1080 on August 18, 2017, 08:42:20 AM
New from Hyperion (image links to recording page)

Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
For Bunita Marcus
Marc-André Hamelin (piano)

(http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/034571280486.png)

 (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDA68048&utm_medium=DM&utm_source=DM2017_08&dm_i=10ZR,50RWL,JL36XM,J5L5P,1)

Its a great piece, but the title creeps me out now after Bunita spoke out about her abuse



From the booklet essay ~

‘I have no problem with notes … none at all’, was Feldman’s cryptic comment on For Bunita Marcus.

You are about to enter a world unlike any other. A universe of sound completely unrelated to the narrative, linear musical physiognomies we are all used to. With For Bunita Marcus Feldman has managed to wipe the slate clean and invent a world which has its own laws, which must be dealt with in its own terms. It is also a domain of extreme economy of means, both in its radically reduced dynamics and in its uncommon textural sparseness. The miraculous thing, though, is that there are so many dimensions within this seemingly limited material that it is entirely possible for the listener to understand the music in many different ways, and also to be affected by it in different ways.

The first time I sat down at the piano to read Feldman’s piece, I initially experienced a beautiful sense of liberation. In all my years of exploring the more obscure regions of the literature for my instrument, I’d never felt anything like it. A seventy-two-minute stretch of delicate, triple-piano textures with the damper pedal held constantly down is not something that any amount of exposure to traditional repertoire could ever prepare pianists for. But as the piece unfolded I was carried through a conflicting host of impressions, and it became clearer and clearer to me that a single hearing of it could never reveal the myriad ways in which the work can be listened to and understood.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on August 24, 2017, 02:56:06 PM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/166/MI0001166558.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
I find this very satisfying. I hesitate to buy another, especially one with a faster tempo.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: San Antone on August 24, 2017, 03:21:56 PM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/166/MI0001166558.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
I find this very satisfying. I hesitate to buy another, especially one with a faster tempo.

Liebner has always been my preferred recording of Feldman, but the new Hamelin is really nice, too.   It doesn't sound "too fast" to me.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: torut on September 02, 2017, 08:18:50 AM
Liebner's Feldman, Cage, Wolff recordings are excellent, though I have not heard her For Bunita Marcus. I didn't like Schleiermacher's Cage, so I have not heard any Feldman by him. I thought his playing was too bold.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on September 03, 2017, 07:15:32 AM
Liebner's Feldman, Cage, Wolff recordings are excellent, though I have not heard her For Bunita Marcus. I didn't like Schleiermacher's Cage, so I have not heard any Feldman by him. I thought his playing was too bold.

I have Schleiermacher in Feldman's Last Works for Piano Solo. I find him impeccable, and, coupled with the exacting MDG sound, this version has just the effect I find tantalizing.

Kleeb on HatHut I found too... something (no acoustic effect?)...

I like Scheliermacher in some very specific Cage (the numbered piano muiscs), but, in, say, the 'Etudes Australes', I get curious dog face (wtf?)...



...low days for Morty on das interwebs :(...
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on September 24, 2017, 08:12:35 AM
Today I've discovered two fabulously interesting performances of Palais de Mari, one by Ronnie Lynn Patterson, and another by Marianne Schroeder. It's strange how some pianists can really make the piece work, and others . . . can't.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on September 24, 2017, 11:30:56 PM
Today I've discovered two fabulously interesting performances of Palais de Mari, one by Ronnie Lynn Patterson, and another by Marianne Schroeder. It's strange how some pianists can really make the piece work, and others . . . can't.
I have only Takahashi. It might be worth getting another.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Artem on September 25, 2017, 06:40:10 PM
Did you guys see that Out There Music added Hat Hut/Art label to their catalogue and are now issuing some Feldman? Interesting.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on September 26, 2017, 01:36:39 AM
Who are the composers whose music was influenced by Feldman's ideas?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on September 26, 2017, 01:54:37 AM
Who are the composers whose music was influenced by Feldman's ideas?
John Luther Adams professes. But somehow I feel this is more about mood then any technical aspects of the music? Anyway, Adams has had no lasting effect on me despite a bit of effort I gave it.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on September 26, 2017, 03:15:40 AM
I have only Takahashi. It might be worth getting another.

Yes I think you should. I've found 16 recordings of Palais de Mari and there's a lot of differences.

I've been listening to this, it is very bleak indeed, and very good. Feldman was dying in 1987 and I'd say he wrote some extraordinary music at that time.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51KDDww0nYL._SX342_QL70_.jpg)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on September 26, 2017, 03:17:22 AM
John Luther Adams professes. But somehow I feel this is more about mood then any technical aspects of the music? Anyway, Adams has had no lasting effect on me despite a bit of effort I gave it.

Well it certainly would be interesting if Feldman's sole legacy is John Luther Adams. What about Merzbow and other noise music people who write serious  long compositions where not much happens? Music that sounds like a badly tuned FM radio.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 26, 2017, 04:16:34 AM
From the latest UB alumni mag.

You’ve all heard of “the internationally renowned new music festival,” June in Buffalo?  It’s world-famous in Poland.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on September 26, 2017, 04:51:27 AM
Yes I think you should. I've found 16 recordings of Palais de Mari and there's a lot of differences.

I've been listening to this, it is very bleak indeed, and very good. Feldman was dying in 1987 and I'd say he wrote some extraordinary music at that time.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51KDDww0nYL._SX342_QL70_.jpg)
I have this also: but I think it's the only recording of this work I have. Strike that: I also have the Bridge recording. Hmm...I'll have to compare. I realize for Palais I also have Sabine Liebner. She's sparse with already sparse music. Like a desert at night. I think I like it better than Takahashi. I like Liebner's palette.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on September 26, 2017, 05:12:34 AM
Yes I think you should. I've found 16 recordings of Palais de Mari and there's a lot of differences.

I've been listening to this, it is very bleak indeed, and very good. Feldman was dying in 1987 and I'd say he wrote some extraordinary music at that time.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51KDDww0nYL._SX342_QL70_.jpg)
Feldman inspired rant: The bridge recording is also quite good I think. I think Klimt is a little smoother sounding - maybe a bit more polished? And the bridge is a slightly more present or up front in the recording and slightly more brittle. They'e both quite good and really worth spending time with. Yeah, I haven't spent enough time with this piece. It's great. The piano quartet had me so enthralled and I think I rated this as lesser. The piano quintet is almost ambient music. But this piece is darker I think. But also satisfying in a different way. I feel Feldman doesn't get his proper due. Maybe it's because people think he's so same-y. I've always liked artists like that. People say Eric Rohmer and Ozu made the same films over and over. But it's a kind of focus. There's a pianist here in Japan that plays a lot of modern French stuff. I convinced her to play Why Patterns with her ensemble (it's a length they can handle). But they only played it once in Kyoto to a very small crowd. I don't quite get why they go through weeks or months of practice just to do something once. Why not play it 2 or three times? Anyway...I can't get them to do more Feldman. Palais would be a good piece for her to do solo, though. Although, no one wants to hear this music and she spends months practicing obscure modern French stuff for some visiting composer at a museum for no pay. But Japan has gotten really bad. There's all this terrible crap now like painting performances where someone plays and some schmuck paints something at the same time. There's a video on youtube of a terrible Japanese pianist playing Bach with a chain in her piano.   
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: San Antone on September 26, 2017, 05:50:52 AM
Imo, Feldman is a 20th century composer who has a healthy audience.  Of course, no "modern" composer will have the fanbase as Bach, Beethoven or Wagner, but relatively speaking, his recordings are generally inprint and new ones appear fairly regularly.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on September 26, 2017, 05:54:54 AM
I counted that there are 16 recordings available now of Palais de Mari. I don't know what that shows, but it may show something. Or it may not.

The music from his last couple of years is not the same as the rest, more austere.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on September 26, 2017, 05:58:30 AM
I counted that there are 16 recordings available now of Palais de Mari. I don't know what that shows, but it may show something. Or it may not.

The music from his last couple of years is not the same as the rest, more austere.
I think it's about the length of the piece? Easy to stick on a recording? Triadic memories is more of a commitment. When I was talking to my friend here in Japan (friend's wife) they had a hard time finding a manageable Feldman piece. They weren't willing to do, like, 4 hours.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: bwv 1080 on September 27, 2017, 07:18:37 AM
(https://d42bo2445p9pu.cloudfront.net/assets/uploads/2017/03/14005358/cover92082.jpg)

great Feldman recording and also a good intro to the music of Christopher Fox
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: millionrainbows on September 28, 2017, 09:12:15 AM
Listen to this and compare it to Feldman. It's just not the same; it has no 'emotional' content or identity as Feldman does. That's not a criticism; this just sound more detached and objective. Maybe, by comparison, this will 'humanize' Feldman for some.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/21wDm+zoswL._AC_US218_.jpg)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on September 28, 2017, 12:21:58 PM
(https://d42bo2445p9pu.cloudfront.net/assets/uploads/2017/03/14005358/cover92082.jpg)

great Feldman recording and also a good intro to the music of Christopher Fox

You know, it's so strange listening to music from the early 80s after focusing on the last pieces, that clarinet+String quartet sounds nervous, agitated, dramatic! I'm clear now that my main interest in Feldman is what I've baptised the "death music"
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: San Antone on September 29, 2017, 01:44:49 AM
Who are the composers whose music was influenced by Feldman's ideas?

This is just a guess, but I think many composers have been influenced by his aesthetic but you won't hear it overtly in their music.  Feldman is somewhat like Thelonius Monk in this regard, i.e. his voice is so distinctive that it would be next to impossible to show an influence without it being obvious.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 30, 2017, 04:20:00 PM
This is just a guess, but I think many composers have been influenced by his aesthetic but you won't hear it overtly in their music.  Feldman is somewhat like Thelonius Monk in this regard, i.e. his voice is so distinctive that it would be next to impossible to show an influence without it being obvious.

I think that's fair.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on September 30, 2017, 11:12:32 PM
This is just a guess, but I think many composers have been influenced by his aesthetic



I'm trying to make sense of this, the aesthetic ideas which were influential but not audible in the music.



Feldman is somewhat like Thelonius Monk in this regard, i.e. his voice is so distinctive that it would be next to impossible to show an influence without it being obvious.

The superficial characteristics like length, music proceeding by slight variations to a simple idea, quietness, no flamboyance or virtuosity -- there's scope there to be take up some of these principles and still be original. Listen for example to the start of Merzbow's "I'm Coming to the Garden... No Sound, No Memory"

https://www.youtube.com/v/fS17rszgSNM

Barry Truax's Riverrun also, what he says about it sounds totally Feldman to me, apart from "larger textures and masses"

Quote
Riverrun creates a sound environment in which stasis and flux, solidity and movement co-exist in a dynamic balance. The corresponding metaphor is that of a river, always moving yet seemingly permanent. From the smallest rivulet to the fullest force of its mass, a river is formed from a collection of countless droplets and sources. So too with the sound in this composition which bases itself on the smallest possible 'unit' of sound in order to create larger textures and masses. The title is the first word in James Joyce's Finnegan's Wake.

https://www.youtube.com/v/u81IGEFt7dM
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on October 08, 2017, 01:30:47 AM
I've been listening to Why Patters from this today:
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/128/MI0001128702.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
as opposed to this:
(http://darkmp3.ru/imgs/8471713-460x460/rothko-chapel.jpg)
Are these the best versions out there? I like this piece a lot. Is this the beginning of his late period? It's said to have something to do with rugs. That's right, rugs. I like this last period and all these small ensemble pieces with piano and other instruments.
I came across an article today that I like. I understand that Feldman was NOT inspired by Buddhism. Nevertheless:
Can Morton Feldman’s Music be a Key to Meditation?
https://drgeraldstein.wordpress.com/2014/01/11/can-morton-feldmans-music-be-a-key-to-meditation/ (https://drgeraldstein.wordpress.com/2014/01/11/can-morton-feldmans-music-be-a-key-to-meditation/)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: San Antone on October 08, 2017, 01:59:02 AM


I'm trying to make sense of this, the aesthetic ideas which were influential but not audible in the music.



The superficial characteristics like length, music proceeding by slight variations to a simple idea, quietness, no flamboyance or virtuosity -- there's scope there to be take up some of these principles and still be original. Listen for example to the start of Merzbow's "I'm Coming to the Garden... No Sound, No Memory"

https://www.youtube.com/v/fS17rszgSNM

Barry Truax's Riverrun also, what he says about it sounds totally Feldman to me, apart from "larger textures and masses"

https://www.youtube.com/v/u81IGEFt7dM

Yes - those are examples of what I meant.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: San Antone on October 08, 2017, 02:04:06 AM
Some quotes from Feldman about his music:

Quote
I have no secret. And if I tell you why I have no secret you will think that it is the most audacious, the most arrogant remark you could hear from a musician either in or out of South Africa. The reason I have no secret, and a secret really means a system, is that I don't need it. For me to have a system would be would be like Rockefeller selling newspapers on the streets of Johannesburg. It's as simple as that. My ideas, my notes, for whatever reason, just come to me. The only time I do have a system is when I'm stuck and it's almost like a little gasoline or a little push of the car to get it going. I do have other things, for example, a lot to do with a different kind of terminology. Rather than system I would use the word "strategy". Or "format" a simple word like "format" or "presentation", I don't even have a word like "process" in my thinking. But strategy, and a strategy usually comes about in terms of the same kind of thinking that any other composer would have. Like anybody else the opening measure and its potential and its flexibility. But what I don't do is try to make a system out of it. But in that sense like almost any other professional composer it is the opening ideas. In that sense I am just as conventional as everybody else.

Re: rugs

Quote
WHY PATTERNS? Oh there's another piece, the first piece that opens up the programme. INSTRUMENTS 1 is part of a trilogy. I do write sometimes sets of pieces where I wanna take essentially where I'm at into another kind of instrumentation, or into a different kind of colour, or a different kind of instrumentation. I don't want to explore it all in one piece. I feel that it wouldn't be appropriate. And this was the first. The whole, this is absolutely unlike like WHY PATTERNS? and BETWEEN CATEGORIES, this is precisely notated. In this piece the focus as I remember it had to do with breathing. Breathing in terms of a kind of breathing timbre. Listening to the instruments and trying to clock what I feel their own timbral rhythm would be. That's essentially what the whole series of these three pieces were concerned with. Breathing, rhythm as breathing.

WHY PATTERNS? ... the instrumentation is very important. WHY PATTERNS? is one of the few pieces that I ever wrote where I was actually inspired by an extraneous idea, outside of the music itself. As I mentioned a few times I'm involved with a certain area of oriental rugs, older rugs, with old colours, and I had a rug and I happened to catch, well actually it was an interesting rug because there was no field in the rug. The rug was made up of just a series of borders. Just like a Jack in the Box, just getting, some were wider, some were, ... and rugs are no different for example than musical scales. For the most part a lot of them, at least the ones I like, only have about seven or eight possible ... basic colours. There's a variation of colours, it's called "abrash", that is - the dyes are done in small batches and what happens is that the colour, the gradation of the colour changes, sometimes imperceptibly and sometimes quite noticeably. It adds to the rug especially in the refraction of the light on it. And that's what I caught, looking down just haphazardly at this rug of just patterns, and how the patterns are just going around, and what's interesting about these particular rugs unlike the kind of more commercial Persian rug is that the pattern repeats itself, but it's never really exact. It's as if every time they do it again it's done idiomatically. It's quite different. In fact I actually measured one pattern that seemed the same all over, and it was different. And the colour actually changes, because of this dying thing, this "abrash".

Entire lecture can be read here (http://www.cnvill.net/mfjobur2.htm).
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on October 08, 2017, 02:58:24 AM
Some quotes from Feldman about his music:

Re: rugs

Entire lecture can be read here (http://www.cnvill.net/mfjobur2.htm).
Good stuff. Thanks.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on October 08, 2017, 08:50:17 AM
(https://d42bo2445p9pu.cloudfront.net/assets/uploads/2017/03/14005358/cover92082.jpg)

great Feldman recording and also a good intro to the music of Christopher Fox

I personally think that is the best version of the CQ,... here, one can hear the violin(?) play along with the clarinet; in others, I only hear the clarinet... I think the sound here is scintillating, also a difference with comparisons...

Couldn't staaand the Christopher Fox piece...


And I do like the KLIMPT on Stradivarius...




...also thinking about fellow NY chutzpuhnik Weinstein this morning... is there a pattern here??...
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on October 08, 2017, 10:14:40 AM
I've been listening to Why Patters from this today:
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/128/MI0001128702.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
as opposed to this:
(http://darkmp3.ru/imgs/8471713-460x460/rothko-chapel.jpg)
 Is this the beginning of his late period?

Not, IMO, the beginning of his last period. I'm not keen on that sort of music, too much like holy minimalism, Part.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on October 08, 2017, 11:30:13 PM
Not, IMO, the beginning of his last period. I'm not keen on that sort of music, too much like holy minimalism, Part.
How do you feel about the trio? It's a bit more fraught.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on October 09, 2017, 09:03:02 PM
How do you feel about the trio? It's a bit more fraught.

Yes it seems to have lots of interesting harmonies. I like the trio.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on October 13, 2017, 03:42:12 AM
I think I like Coptic Light more than the other Orchestral works. I have "The New World Symphony." Is there another good one? Coptic light sounds like clouds and water.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: millionrainbows on October 18, 2017, 10:52:45 AM
See if you can follow me on this, but artistic expression, and Feldman's music, has to do with the expression of one's being. That's the difference between the Earle Brown "Four Systems" and Feldman. He said he didn't need a system, because he had already found his muse, in the expression of his being. It may appear to be "just isolated notes" at first, but as you explore his music you begin to see this evidence of his 'being.' I think this is the key to all great art.

Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on October 19, 2017, 01:52:14 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/31%2BJjh4vOEL._SL500_.jpg)

This is an enjoyable performance of Untitled Composition for Cello and Piano (1981), the pianist Kees Wieringa is pretty good (check his op 111) - and the cellist René Berman seems fine too. Listening to it I was impressed by how coherent the music is, the sections flow into each other in a way that sounds right and I wouldn't like to just listen to a part of it, to start in the middle or anything like that. What I mean is  that I think there's a plan, a structure. A system even.  There are also times when the music brings back ideas previously heard, and the pleasure is in the memory, remembering a sound or a rhythm that you've heard before. It's not so long as to hinder memory.

The third thing I thought, but we all already know this, is that it's really misleading to say that Feldman's music is static or peaceful. I think there are many turbulent moments in this piece, rhythmically vibrant and harmonically surprising.

The music was published posthumously as Patterns in a Chromatic Field, presumably they thought the fancy title would sell better. This recording is less agressive and in your face as others I've heard, and I think more interesting for that reason.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Richard Pinnell on October 19, 2017, 04:09:06 AM
For me, Feldman's greatest works are the late piano pieces, For Bunita Marcus and Triadic Memories in particular. Feldman uses time and space in these works like nobody else. The greatest recordings I ever found, by some distance, are those by John Tilbury. If you can track down his London Hall set from the late nineties of the complete piano works I'd recommend it,  but his more recent recordings on the Italian Atopos label are truly wonderful.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: amw on October 19, 2017, 04:16:32 AM
The music was published posthumously as Patterns in a Chromatic Field, presumably they thought the fancy title would sell better. This recording is less agressive and in your face as others I've heard, and I think more interesting for that reason.
Hmm. I'd always heard of that piece and never listened to it because it sounded meh, but in its sole recording without a title I've owned and loved it for a while. (Though not easy listening lol.) I guess a) maybe titles don't actually sell that well with Feldman and b) maybe I should check out that recording by Deirdre Cooper and John Tilbury.... or that other one by Arne Deforce and Yutaka Oya.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Richard Pinnell on October 19, 2017, 04:28:16 AM
maybe I should check out that recording by Deirdre Cooper and John Tilbury.... or that other one by Arne Deforce and Yutaka Oya.

Yes on the Tilbury/Cooper. My favourite recording though is the one on Hat by Rohan DeSaram and Marianne Schroeder. Wonderful piece.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: San Antone on October 19, 2017, 05:05:50 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/31%2BJjh4vOEL._SL500_.jpg)

This is an enjoyable performance of Untitled Composition for Cello and Piano (1981), the pianist Kees Wieringa is pretty good (check his op 111) - and the cellist René Berman seems fine too. Listening to it I was impressed by how coherent the music is, the sections flow into each other in a way that sounds right and I wouldn't like to just listen to a part of it, to start in the middle or anything like that. What I mean is  that I think there's a plan, a structure. A system even.  There are also times when the music brings back ideas previously heard, and the pleasure is in the memory, remembering a sound or a rhythm that you've heard before. It's not so long as to hinder memory.

The third thing I thought, but we all already know this, is that it's really misleading to say that Feldman's music is static or peaceful. I think there are many turbulent moments in this piece, rhythmically vibrant and harmonically surprising.

The music was published posthumously as Patterns in a Chromatic Field, presumably they thought the fancy title would sell better. This recording is less agressive and in your face as others I've heard, and I think more interesting for that reason.

I would like to hear this work, which is a new one for me.  But the CD on Amazon is nearly $90.00. 

I think I found it on YouTube.  Is this the same work:

https://www.youtube.com/v/-im03eVGWQ8

Aleck Karis, piano
Charles Curtis, cello
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on October 19, 2017, 05:35:30 AM
For me, Feldman's greatest works are the late piano pieces, For Bunita Marcus and Triadic Memories in particular. Feldman uses time and space in these works like nobody else. The greatest recordings I ever found, by some distance, are those by John Tilbury. If you can track down his London Hall set from the late nineties of the complete piano works I'd recommend it,  but his more recent recordings on the Italian Atopos label are truly wonderful.

I have the London Hall recordings.  I'd say Tilbury's Feldman is harder, tougher, maybe darker emotionally, than the rest. I'm not sure how I feel about it to be honest.

 I didn't know he'd recorded Feldman more recently.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on October 19, 2017, 05:47:09 AM
My latest Feldman acquisition was this CD by Ronnie Lynn Patterson, a jazz pianist, I love the Palais de Mari there, it's quite different from Tilbury's performance!

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51wy5CQh1ZL._SY355_.jpg)

The booklet has an essay by Christian Tarting which I thought was interesting to read, he's an academic who has specialised in improvisation, I may try to read his work,

Quote


Why is Morton Feldman's music so difficult to listen to? One is tempted to paraphrase here the title of Berg's famous article from 1924 on Schönberg1 so as to explain how the reproaches usually levelled against the New York composer by those who oppose his very clearly defined aesthetics, miss the point. Such reproaches - that his compositions are boring, far too long, created according to simplistic compositional procedures, always pitched at the lowest possible sound level to the point of obession, so as to be almost inaudible, as though fascinated by the very poverty of the melodic formulae governing their inner logic etc. etc. - only show a lack of real observation of the universe and guiding principles of this composer and what he has to say. For out of those musicians still linked to Western tradition in spite of everything and to the symbolic weight it implies in matters of composition, here is one who has shown the most intimate understanding of the positions taken up by his close friend and mentor, John Cage. It is precisely Morton Feldman who in the quietly unshakeable inevitability of his own position, has pushed some of the deviations from classical writing inherent in John Cage's work to their limit.
He has echoed the silence defined by Cage in the manner of Wittgenstein as “all the sounds co- ming in”, notably with his predilection for tenuity, his use of extremely compact, unassuming dynamics (this is in fact merely a side issue, almost a facile way of covering Cagism), as well as his basic principle denying all self-interest, his refusal to indulge in demonstrative aesthe- tics, or give voice to originality in complex settings all too close, in his opinion, to the desire for individuality, the wish to leave one's mark on the work - old established rules of the Old World.
To Cage's “resulting” silence, an area of noises, parasitic and otherwise, belonging to the realm of sensitivity where pure accident is the vital ingredient, or to silence as a defined area of re- ceptivity, the unresolved, not subject to any aesthetic, Feldman's reply is that of a logic that encompasses the silence by the absence of all effects, the repetition of the generating cells in a scarcely modulated regular pattern. It amounts to almost nothing, a pianissimo (“My music is inside silence”, he used to say) that prompted the following remark in parallel: “I differ from my European colleagues in that I don't require a work of art to be interesting”. So we find him thrusting aside even more decisively our well-established categories and patterns as users of the musical element. More than anything else, his approach is closer in feeling to the Chinese notion of insipidness and palour, that places more importance on transparence and duplication than action or the production of something “new”, or self-assertion2.
In reality Feldman suggested somewhat maliciously that his music belonged to the realm of the parable; Cage highlighted the significance of this statement by proposing to call him a hero if he was not given the title of composer. Feldman the Irenist deliberately provokes boredom, which for him constitutes an opening towards consciousness, or to put it more aptly, it is the symptom of consciousness. Giving rise to it could be his most important decisive act - almost the only one, as he himself might have claimed. By jamming irremediably the tape of eve- rything artificial, the loop of little tricks that go to make up what claims to be listening ma- terial, but which, as far as music is concerned, only implies a sort of social, superficial acquaintanceship, a backdrop in fact, boredom functions like the blow of the Zen monk's stick, requiring the body to react and enter into a state of concentration. It's what trips up all those who want to advance quickly, be seduced and flattered by diversity, consume diffe- rence as a value, a token of culture. If one stumbles and revolts in the presence of boredom, what is potentially a gateway to understanding will shut forever. But if boredom is reco- gnised and ac-knowledged, experienced and finally accepted, it becomes dynamic, a sure catalyst for meditation, revealing its most fertile ground, that of inner detachment - the opportunity is revealed, slowly unfolded in every detail, illuminated, for a sort of imploded ecstasy, brought about by the gradual dissolution of one's personal agitations, the thrus- ting aside of all background noise so as to escape all that might weigh one down, starting with the lengthy story of the tensions of the “I”.
For anyone willing to immerse himself long enough in transparency, the “unspectacular”, the poverty attributed to Morton Feldman's music, a new kind of perception emerges, reveals itself to the intelligence, shines forth with real radiance - a serenity experienced in the inner being rather than via external charm, a place for the inner breath, the inner rhythm - found once again in its original, primeval state - not ruled by hypnosis or any kind of order, message or code imposed from outside.
The art of little proper to Feldman, the special emotional charge of his nearly monochromatic state, make particular demands on the performer - an unusual attentiveness is required, situated so- mewhere between humility and watchfulness. A state of being, where being wholly and utterly open is more important than virtuosic talent, though this is indispensable in music where the expected and the unexpected figure to such a degree3. Performers of Feldman's music, who for these very reasons remain few and far between, interpret his music in the most noble and mystical sense of the term. They are readers: friends, heralds of a world they have made their own, giving us the tension of coalescence, the intensity of a spiritual exercise, in the confi- dence of their interpretation. Ronnie Lynn Patterson belongs to that small group of pianists, Like Roger Woodward, Gérard Frémy and Marianne Schroeder, Ronnie Lynn Patterson belongs to that small group of pianists who "with no dependence, no nonsense" live their relationship to the full - a relationship with the man who believed that in the act of composing, concentration is much more important than the organization of the high points or any other conceptual approach. In order to measure the actual degree of his own concentration, he chose to write his scores di- rectly in ink, and would break off his work at the very first deletion.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Richard Pinnell on October 19, 2017, 05:57:44 AM
I have the London Hall recordings.  I'd say Tilbury's Feldman is harder, tougher, maybe darker emotionally, than the rest. I'm not sure how I feel about it to be honest.

I'd disagree on harder and tougher, not sure what you mean by darker emotionally... Certainly John instills a great deal of sensuality into his reading of Feldman, and this has increased over recent years as the later recordings generally are slower, more spacious, and watching him play is an emotionally arduous challenge. He mentally throws everything at it.

I didn't know he'd recorded Feldman more recently.

He had a stroke about a decade ago that for a while stopped him playing but he came back from it with a renewed intensity. The Atopos releases are fine productions, but his Feldman disc on Another Timbre is also very good.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Richard Pinnell on October 19, 2017, 06:03:46 AM
The great Cornelius Cardew on Feldman's music:

Quote
Almost all Feldman's music is slow and soft. Only at first sight is this a limitation. I see it rather as a narrow door, to whose dimensions one has to adapt oneself (as in Alice in Wonderland) before one can pass through it into the state of being that is expressed in Feldman's music. Only when one has become accustomed to the dimness of light can one begin to perceive the richness and variety of colour which is the material of the music. When one has passed through the narrow door and got accustomed to the dim light, one realises the range of his imagination and the significant differences that distinguish one piece from another ...

Feldman sees the sounds as reverberating endlessly, never getting lost, changing their resonances as they die away, or rather do not die away, but recede from our ears, and soft because softness is compelling, because an insidious invasion of our senses is more effective than a frontal attack. Because our ears must strain to catch the music, they must become more sensitive before they perceive the world of sound in which Feldman's music takes place.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on October 19, 2017, 06:18:22 AM
I'd disagree on harder and tougher, not sure what you mean by darker emotionally... Certainly John instills a great deal of sensuality into his reading of Feldman, and this has increased over recent years as the later recordings generally are slower, more spacious, and watching him play is an emotionally arduous challenge. He mentally throws everything at it.

He had a stroke about a decade ago that for a while stopped him playing but he came back from it with a renewed intensity. The Atopos releases are fine productions, but his Feldman disc on Another Timbre is also very good.

Thanks, I'm very tempted to get the Triadic Memories. I just saw that he played it in London last year, I'm kind of annoyed with myself that I missed it.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Monsieur Croche on October 19, 2017, 01:38:18 PM
See if you can follow me on this, but artistic expression, and Feldman's music, has to do with the expression of one's being. That's the difference between the Earle Brown "Four Systems" and Feldman. He said he didn't need a system, because he had already found his muse, in the expression of his being. It may appear to be "just isolated notes" at first, but as you explore his music you begin to see this evidence of his 'being.' I think this is the key to all great art.

This is so well-put that I can hardly stand it (or at the least, it got me envious as to 'OMG, he said that well,' lol.)

Lovely, and thank you.


Best regards.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on October 20, 2017, 02:43:01 AM
(https://img.discogs.com/ofniBReXSQUn4GOfY-8lyezwyr8=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-1379798-1214567343.jpeg.jpg)

One Triadic Memories recording I like is Sabine Liebner's. This is for three reasons:

It's like a duet for two hands. The voices are given equal importance and she makes them seem to interact and respond to each other. I'm beginning to see that for me, how the pianist voices this music really matters.

It's peaceful, quiet and she takes her time, so as a listener I can savour the gestures. I like the fraught way with Triadic Memories too, but I think Liebner brings off the peaceful way very well.

It's got soul, she's communicative. I'm sure you know what I mean when I say that some performances are all chops and no soul - well Liebner's not that.

The recorded sound. I wonder what others think. I could be just feeling a bit grumpy today but IMO it's too close, not very natural, I'm not sure it's really capturing all the overtones and colours. But it's certainly listenable.

Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on October 20, 2017, 04:20:48 AM
(https://img.discogs.com/ofniBReXSQUn4GOfY-8lyezwyr8=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-1379798-1214567343.jpeg.jpg)

One Triadic Memories recording I like is Sabine Liebner's. This is for four reasons:

It's like a duet for two hands. The voices are given equal importance and she makes them seem to interact and respond to each other. I'm beginning to see that for me, how the pianist voices this music really matters.

It's peaceful, quiet and she takes her time, so as a listener I can savour the gestures. I like the fraught way with Triadic Memories too, but I think Liebner brings off the peaceful way very well.

It's full of drama, emotional variety. She makes parts of the music sound as "spiritual" and "transcendent" or whatever the word is as any trill in late Beethoven.

It's got soul, she's communicative. I'm sure you know what I mean when I say that some performances are all chops and no soul - well Liebner's not that.

The recorded sound. I wonder what others think. I could be just feeling a bit grumpy today but IMO it's too close, not very natural, I'm not sure it's really capturing all the overtones and colours. But it's certainly listenable.
I have this one. And I’m following along with everyone’s comments in this thread. I love Feldman. I think he’s like magic. He takes something that might be confused for “simple” at first glance and makes it complex. Maybe it’s particularly with this late piano music. There’s always something happening yet it’s of course it’s all very slow and quiet. But the music is so vast I still cannot say I know it, I just experience it. I love experiencing it. There are a handful of composers who create their own inhabitable worlds. I feel differently about Feldman but I can’t explain why. It’s like he discovered something. Yet, he remains alone in a way with this discovery.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on October 20, 2017, 09:46:28 AM
I have this one. And I’m following along with everyone’s comments in this thread. I love Feldman. I think he’s like magic. He takes something that might be confused for “simple” at first glance and makes it complex. Maybe it’s particularly with this late piano music. There’s always something happening yet it’s of course it’s all very slow and quiet. But the music is so vast I still cannot say I know it, I just experience it. I love experiencing it. There are a handful of composers who create their own inhabitable worlds. I feel differently about Feldman but I can’t explain why. It’s like he discovered something. Yet, he remains alone in a way with this discovery.

Does Liebner say anything about her tempo decisions in the booklet to the CD?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on October 20, 2017, 01:07:36 PM
(https://img.discogs.com/RTQHJh3pIJ1Ew4NwP4YpohB57IA=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-1151607-1196289785.jpeg.jpg)

Here's another Triadic Memories which I like to hear, by Roger Woodward. It's quite anxious and agitated sounding at times I think, which is a bit unexpected maybe. But there are plenty of  "spiritual", "transcendent" moments, or whatever the word is, moments where glittering music in higher registers has an effect on me a bit like a trill in a late Beethoven piano sonata. Time stands still etc., and the music seems to push to some limit of music.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on October 21, 2017, 12:00:04 AM
Does Liebner say anything about her tempo decisions in the booklet to the CD?
Unfortunately I don't have the booklet. Maybe I'll search the web. It'd be nice to read - if she has anything to say. I'm listening to this today:
(http://www.moderecords.com/catalog/images/066feldman.jpg) (Morton Feldman Edition 7: Late Works with Clarinet) Ominous music. ETA. I don't think there is a PDF with the Liebner Feldman recordings. Anybody know? Also: The Bass clarinet & Percussion piece on "Edition 7" is really something. Does anyone know of pieces by other composers that use percussion relatively quietly? Maybe Adams.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: lescamil on October 21, 2017, 04:13:19 AM
Unfortunately I don't have the booklet. Maybe I'll search the web. It'd be nice to read - if she has anything to say. I'm listening to this today:
(http://www.moderecords.com/catalog/images/066feldman.jpg) (Morton Feldman Edition 7: Late Works with Clarinet) Ominous music. ETA. I don't think there is a PDF with the Liebner Feldman recordings. Anybody know? Also: The Bass clarinet & Percussion piece on "Edition 7" is really something. Does anyone know of pieces by other composers that use percussion relatively quietly? Maybe Adams.

John Luther Adams's Strange and Sacred Noise is a work that came to mind quickly that uses percussion quietly. Having seen the piece live I can say that it gets overwhelming at times on both extremes. The quiet moments are very transfixing.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on October 21, 2017, 05:06:06 AM
She takes Triadic Memories extremely slowly, and I bet that she's thought about it, rationalised it.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on October 21, 2017, 07:30:33 AM
(https://img.discogs.com/RTQHJh3pIJ1Ew4NwP4YpohB57IA=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-1151607-1196289785.jpeg.jpg)

Here's another Triadic Memories which I like to hear, by Roger Woodward. It's quite anxious and agitated sounding at times I think, which is a bit unexpected maybe. But there are plenty of  "spiritual", "transcendent" moments, or whatever the word is, moments where glittering music in higher registers has an effect on me a bit like a trill in a late Beethoven piano sonata. Time stands still etc., and the music seems to push to some limit of music.

It is extraordinary what he does with the music here, I wonder how interventionist he is, whether he worked with Feldman etc. I recommend this Triadic Memories enthusiastically.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on October 21, 2017, 12:16:02 PM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/166/MI0001166558.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
I find this very satisfying. I hesitate to buy another, especially one with a faster tempo.

Liebner also takes a long time to get through For Bunita Marcus, but to mind she finds an engaging emotional content in the music which eludes the others that I've heard. Engaging despite the extreme static quality she brings to it.  I never thought I'd say it, but these late Feldman pieces work well when played slowly!

She takes about 87 minutes; the closest I can find is Tilbury, who takes about 77 minutes - quite a difference. Liebner's touch, her gentle attack, is so different from Tilbury's, and it seems really central to her conception of the music.

Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 22, 2017, 06:47:13 AM
I like Feldman’s shorter works like Rothko Chapel, Bass Clarinet and Percussion, and Cello and Orchestra, for example, but find his longer pieces to be the equivalent of Chinese water torture.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Richard Pinnell on October 22, 2017, 06:54:01 AM
She takes about 87 minutes; the closest I can find is Tilbury, who takes about 77 minutes - quite a difference. Liebner's touch, her gentle attack, is so different from Tilbury's, and it seems really central to her conception of the music.

I have a recording of Tilbury performing FBM in 2007 that clocks in at 86 minutes. I do like the Liebner, its a pleasant listen, but for me Tilbury (who knew Feldman) gets closer to the source of the music.

The greatness of these long late pieces to me lies in the sense of uneven rhythm you feel in them. They are obviously restful, relaxing to some degree, but there are very few precise patterns in there as Feldman was mostly inspired by his love of old handmade Turkish carpets, which, whilst patterned, were never quite fully even, with flaws and alterations to the pattern throughout. They are completely scored, with no chance elements (unlike some of his earlier work) and yet their uneven finish give the impression of a degree of improvisation / flexibility. The sense of edge and uncertainty that this brings rises the pieces above mere mood music for me.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Richard Pinnell on October 22, 2017, 06:55:31 AM
I like Feldman’s shorter works like Rothko Chapel, Bass Clarinet and Percussion, and Cello and Orchestra, for example, but find his longer pieces to be the equivalent of Chinese water torture.

I suspect I'd love Chinese water torture ;)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Brewski on October 22, 2017, 07:19:08 AM
Reading all the Triadic Memories comments with great interest. I have just one recording (so far), by Marilyn Nonken, which I got after hearing her do the piece live. She is currently chair of the piano performance department at New York University.

I like it very much, but don't know how it compares to these other interesting recordings.



--Bruce
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on October 22, 2017, 07:27:11 AM

The greatness of these long late pieces to me lies in the sense of uneven rhythm you feel in them. They are obviously restful, relaxing to some degree, but there are very few precise patterns in there as Feldman was mostly inspired by his love of old handmade Turkish carpets, which, whilst patterned, were never quite fully even, with flaws and alterations to the pattern throughout. They are completely scored, with no chance elements (unlike some of his earlier work) and yet their uneven finish give the impression of a degree of improvisation / flexibility. The sense of edge and uncertainty that this brings rises the pieces above mere mood music for me.

This absolutely how I feel too. And it's an aspect of the music which is not revealed by Liebner so clearly. That's why I'd be curious about anything she's written on Feldman.

I like Liebner's way of making a small, non violent sound come out of the piano. If you know about early music, she does for 20th century piano what Rebecca Stewart does for 15th century voice. (Sorry if that's too pretentiously stupid!)

I have a recording of Tilbury performing FBM in 2007 that clocks in at 86 minutes.

If the sound is good you're lucky to have it.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: San Antone on October 22, 2017, 07:44:06 AM
Reading all the Triadic Memories comments with great interest. I have just one recording (so far), by Marilyn Nonken, which I got after hearing her do the piece live. She is currently chair of the piano performance department at New York University.

I like it very much, but don't know how it compares to these other interesting recordings.



--Bruce

I have that one too, I like it a lot.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Richard Pinnell on October 22, 2017, 09:35:33 AM
I like Liebner's way of making a small, non violent sound come out of the piano. If you know about early music, she does for 20th century piano what Rebecca Stewart does for 15th century voice. (Sorry if that's too pretentiously stupid!)

I know nothing about 15th Century voice I am afraid, but your comment doesn't sound pretentious to me. We hear what we hear and make the links that sound natural to us. I'll try and hear Stewart sometime.

The Markus Hinterhauser recordings of late Feldman piano on Col Legno are worth a listen too,- less "pretty" than the Liebner but still with enough of him as a performer in there to keep them from robotic renditions.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: millionrainbows on October 25, 2017, 11:04:38 AM
What I recognize in Feldman is his music is composed for the listening process, which is totally a real thing involving our 'being' and experience. In that regard, it is 'just sound'.

What I mean is this: you hear a note, and automatically you hear that note as the center (or 'tonic'), because that's what we naturally do with our ears. Then, another note appears, which may reinforce that first notion, or erode it. Then other notes appear, which may reinforce the previous expectation, or change it. Each note, therefore, has a "being" or meaning to us, and this changes, and gets continually destroyed or re-created.

This has everything to do with cognition of sound, and how sounds and events are at first present, and then become memories (hence the title "Triadic Memories").

Isn't this a metaphor for being, and for life?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on October 25, 2017, 03:10:22 PM
What I recognize in Feldman is his music is composed for the listening process, which is totally a real thing involving our 'being' and experience. In that regard, it is 'just sound'.

What I mean is this: you hear a note, and automatically you hear that note as the center (or 'tonic'), because that's what we naturally do with our ears. Then, another note appears, which may reinforce that first notion, or erode it. Then other notes appear, which may reinforce the previous expectation, or change it. Each note, therefore, has a "being" or meaning to us, and this changes, and gets continually destroyed or re-created.

This has everything to do with cognition of sound, and how sounds and events are at first present, and then become memories (hence the title "Triadic Memories").

Isn't this a metaphor for being, and for life?
wonderful thought
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: mjwal on October 28, 2017, 08:17:56 AM
wonderful thought

It is a stimulating thought and very well expressed - I would myself suggest the analogy of swimming, where you're experiencing what is perhaps at first a series of unobtrusive but delicately repetitive waves, enjoying the relaxing feeling, then a bigger one comes along and changes the degree of impact, maybe also feeling colder/more bracing, there is a swirl or two...etc...But of course, Feldman swims are more in very long lakes.
To get down to recordings of Triadic Memories, which seems to be a favourite, I have very much enjoyed Fafchamps' and Takahashi's versions, which left me feeling quite different - how, I couldn't say.I think the former transported me to a greater extent.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: millionrainbows on October 28, 2017, 10:19:55 AM
Thanks for your gracious replies, milk and mjwal.

Feldman seems made for the Western listener, unlike some Cage. He plays on our expectations, and our longer-term perception of sound, which has a lot to do with memory. His music is using this narrative process we are all accustomed to, while at the same time he is subverting it, taking away, bringing us back to another beginning note. So while there may be superficial similarities to Cage's random unfolding, Feldman is never truly random. I suppose the indeterminate and graphic music is as close as he got to doing that, but when he wrote down notes, this is where his intentions are apparent.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: San Antone on October 28, 2017, 03:59:31 PM
My most recent Feldman ah-hah moment came when I listened to Neither (https://fdleone.com/2017/10/27/morton-feldmans-anti-opera-neither-a-collaboration-with-samuel-beckett/).  A great work - really wonderful.

Written in 1977 at a point when his longest work had been around 30 mins., Neither is almost an hour .  Neither therefore seems like a fulcrum between his early generally shorter works and the late period works that gradually become longer, some reaching 4, 5 hours.

Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Alek Hidell on October 28, 2017, 07:35:56 PM
Feldman's music fascinates me and I'd dearly love to see a box set of it - if not the entire corpus of his work (some of which, of course, has never been recorded), at least the "greatest hits."

(I wonder how many CDs it would take to encompass his entire oeuvre? - quite a few, given the length of his later works, but perhaps doable?)

Incidentally, for those who don't mind downloads, you can get a fair amount of his music pretty cheaply on Google Play (often much cheaper than on Amazon or iTunes).
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on December 06, 2017, 09:03:25 PM
(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/031/MI0001031812.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
I'm so glad I got this today. Now, this is Feldman's world! Paul Zukofsky is just stunning.
I had been listening to Christina Fong & Paul Hersey and I have to warn people away from that. I would have never known what a special piece of music this really is.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on December 06, 2017, 10:11:25 PM
(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/031/MI0001031812.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
I'm so glad I got this today. Now, this is Feldman's world! Paul Zukofsky is just stunning.
I had been listening to Christina Fong & Paul Hersey and I have to warn people away from that. I would have never known what a special piece of music this really is.

Yes both artists, Schroeder and Zukofsky, are exceptionally good, I like very much Zukofsky's distinctive tone. Try his Bach too!
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on December 07, 2017, 12:57:00 AM
Yes both artists, Schroeder and Zukofsky, are exceptionally good, I like very much Zukofsky's distinctive tone. Try his Bach too!
I'm definitely curious.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on December 08, 2017, 06:12:12 AM
I first came across Marianne Schroeder through an essay on Feldman by Christian Tarting, who's a researcher in improvisation. He singled her out, along with Roger Woodward, Gérard Frémy and Ronnie Lynne Patterson, as a pianist with a bit of a knack for this music. I agree, I've enjoyed exploring Feldman and Cage recordings by all four.

Of course Schroeder led me to Paul Zukofsky . . .

Listening to Paul Zukofsky play For John Cage again, I was impressed by not just the calm, but also by the colours and the variety of attacks. Violin effects, but certainly not reducing the music to an exercise in effects, as if the effects enhance the nobility and the mysteriousness of the music.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: San Antone on December 08, 2017, 06:50:17 AM
Lately, the Feldman recordings I am liking are those by Eberhard Blum on Hat Hut Records.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on December 16, 2017, 08:54:40 PM
Suddenly realize how much I dislike this:
(https://is4-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music5/v4/17/39/6d/17396da3-7750-c38a-b2e2-4683f9b9e1d5/643157069027_cover.jpg/1200x630bb.jpg)
and so I got this:
(https://img.discogs.com/Aewb7cshZr-VRJCo_O1C0LGG-Ac=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-1153289-1196449936.jpeg.jpg)
So far it seems much better but why hasn't this been recorded more?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Uhor on March 15, 2018, 10:56:26 AM
Does anybody know any Feldman orchestrations? I imagine the different repetitions as played by different instruments,  a great way to explore timbre.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Uhor on March 16, 2018, 08:47:45 PM
Maybe orchestrating Feldman's piano works will become a thing long after I'm dead and they become public domain.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on March 17, 2018, 05:14:54 AM
Does anybody know any Feldman orchestrations? I imagine the different repetitions as played by different instruments,  a great way to explore timbre.
I'm not sure how to put this and I think this came up in interviews with some of his students but there is something about the way Feldman uses the timbre of the instruments in his composition. It makes me wonder if this is a good idea. I know I don't know enough about music so say exactly but I do think it's a good question. I'm just wondering whether it goes against what Feldman was doing or not. I'm interested in an informed opinion.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Uhor on March 19, 2018, 03:41:38 PM
It's true that Feldman's work is even fundamentally timbre oriented; I still think orchestrating the piano pieces would be very cool.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987) IT'S PERFECTLY OBVIOUS
Post by: snyprrr on July 09, 2018, 07:39:46 AM
Debussy, Prelude 'Footprints in the Snow'


It's obviously the opening of Feldman's 'Piano,Violin,Viola, Cello,... huh, how bout that?


Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on July 19, 2018, 07:39:17 AM
(https://img.discogs.com/E5bjvWQRxdJ_69TPMdl8ZF5us3I=/fit-in/599x608/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-3579910-1336069843.jpeg.jpg)

This is just sooooooooo depressing, I mean piano, violin, Viola and cello. He must have been unbelievably down in the dumps, Tilbury knows what he wanted if anyone does I guess. Unbearable music, excruciatingly bleak, torture. Somehow the quietness of it makes it even more painful than For Samuel Becket. It feels like one of those EST seminars designed to break you down, but then it doesn’t build you up again.

What did Feldman know, what secret of the universe had he glimpsed, which prompted such hopelessness?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: snyprrr on July 19, 2018, 08:32:47 AM
(https://img.discogs.com/E5bjvWQRxdJ_69TPMdl8ZF5us3I=/fit-in/599x608/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-3579910-1336069843.jpeg.jpg)

This is just sooooooooo depressing, I mean piano, violin, Viola and cello. He must have been unbelievably down in the dumps, Tilbury knows what he wanted if anyone does I guess. Unbearable music, excruciatingly bleak, torture. Somehow the quietness of it makes it even more painful than For Samuel Becket. It feels like one of those EST seminars designed to break you down, but then it doesn’t build you up again.

What did Feldman know, what secret of the universe had he glimpsed, which prompted such hopelessness?

Like I said in the previous Post, PVVC sounds JUST like 'Footprints in the Snow' by Debussy... there right there is an allusion to hopelessness...

...if there's time...
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on February 24, 2020, 10:36:59 PM
---THREAD UPDATE---

Thought I would revive this thread before it is rendered in a prolonged stasis, which would be rather Feldman-like if I do say so myself. :D Anyway, who’s listening to Feldman here and what works have you discovered/rediscovered?

I suppose some cross-posts are in order:

Loaded up on some Feldman:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODQ5NjI3My4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwidG9Gb3JtYXQiOiJqcGVnIiwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX19LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1Mzg1OTY0NjJ9)(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk2MTQ3MS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwidG9Gb3JtYXQiOiJqcGVnIiwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX19LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MzQ3MTExMDd9)
(https://img.discogs.com/AdzYFCNfrk4zxIovBsJgBd_jS3w=/fit-in/600x586/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-727528-1196127377.jpeg.jpg)(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk0OTUyOS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwidG9Gb3JtYXQiOiJqcGVnIiwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX19LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1MzAxMTA1NDZ9)
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODYzMTA1OS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwidG9Gb3JtYXQiOiJqcGVnIiwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX19LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1NTkyMjE5NTR9)

Just bought:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71QZe0QmWiL.jpg)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: amw on February 25, 2020, 12:11:46 AM
My most recent Feldman acquisition, which I've listened to with pleasure, is this one:

(https://img.discogs.com/JgTLjhhkhdvh_ruuqd7rucmbndI=/fit-in/600x537/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-6317784-1416328212-5897.jpeg.jpg)

These pieces come from my favourite of Feldman's two or three "artistic periods"—just after the graphic scores, but before he got into the 1 hour+ pieces of his last decade and a half. The playing is slower than on other recordings I have of these works. The articulation of each note or chord is pellucid and rounded, as though playing a Bach invention; virtually every John Tilbury recording at this stage is a masterclass in piano technique. Simon Reynell as always delivers top quality sound engineering. Also, some might disagree but I find the narrow cardboard slipcases very cute.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on February 25, 2020, 03:02:51 AM
who’s listening to Feldman here and what works have you discovered/rediscovered?



Numbers
On Time and the Instrumental Factor
The King of Denmark
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on February 25, 2020, 03:41:11 AM
My most recent Feldman acquisition, which I've listened to with pleasure, is this one:

(https://img.discogs.com/JgTLjhhkhdvh_ruuqd7rucmbndI=/fit-in/600x537/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-6317784-1416328212-5897.jpeg.jpg)

These pieces come from my favourite of Feldman's two or three "artistic periods"—just after the graphic scores, but before he got into the 1 hour+ pieces of his last decade and a half. The playing is slower than on other recordings I have of these works. The articulation of each note or chord is pellucid and rounded, as though playing a Bach invention; virtually every John Tilbury recording at this stage is a masterclass in piano technique. Simon Reynell as always delivers top quality sound engineering. Also, some might disagree but I find the narrow cardboard slipcases very cute.

I have been looking at some of the Feldman (and Cage) recordings on this label, Another Timbre. That one looks excellent, I shall have to check it out.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on February 25, 2020, 05:35:52 AM
My most recent Feldman acquisition, which I've listened to with pleasure, is this one:

(https://img.discogs.com/JgTLjhhkhdvh_ruuqd7rucmbndI=/fit-in/600x537/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-6317784-1416328212-5897.jpeg.jpg)

These pieces come from my favourite of Feldman's two or three "artistic periods"—just after the graphic scores, but before he got into the 1 hour+ pieces of his last decade and a half. The playing is slower than on other recordings I have of these works. The articulation of each note or chord is pellucid and rounded, as though playing a Bach invention; virtually every John Tilbury recording at this stage is a masterclass in piano technique. Simon Reynell as always delivers top quality sound engineering. Also, some might disagree but I find the narrow cardboard slipcases very cute.

After listening to a lot of Cage, the music on this one sounds too nervous, too stressy, too eventful. This may well be Tilbury's influence, he's more intense, more tense, than other Feldman performers in the solo music I think, and I remember someone saying to me once that that was his trade mark style, something he had developed after a lot of thinking about the music and interraction with the composer. Be that as it may, I'm not sure it's my sort of thing at the moment.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: San Antone on February 25, 2020, 06:40:40 AM
https://www.youtube.com/v/sQHPyMm5ldY

This is the YouTube clip of Two Pianos from this disc:

(https://img.discogs.com/JgTLjhhkhdvh_ruuqd7rucmbndI=/fit-in/600x537/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-6317784-1416328212-5897.jpeg.jpg)

I think it is a nice 10 minute piece by Feldman.  This disc brings together a number of works do not appear to have been recorded that much previously (if at all), and for that reason alone it would be a worthwhile purchase for Feldman fans. 

However, based on this one clip there is reason to expect that all the performances are equally excellent. Philip Thomas has recorded a 5CD box of Feldman piano music, also on Another Timbre, to add to his impressive catalog of recordings of new and/or experimental music.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: T. D. on February 25, 2020, 06:45:47 AM
---THREAD UPDATE---

Thought I would revive this thread before it is rendered in a prolonged stasis, which would be rather Feldman-like if I do say so myself. :D Anyway, who’s listening to Feldman here and what works have you discovered/rediscovered?

I suppose some cross-posts are in order:

I bought the book many years ago (pub. 2000). Feldman's opinionated, which makes for interesting reading IMO. I hadn't purchased any recordings in a long time, but recently ordered For John Cage in connection with number piece listening. I never much got into the graphic score or ultra-long material, but enjoy the rest. Probably listen to Triadic Memories (L. Goldstein) and Ecstasy of the Moment (Etcetera  / Barton Workshop collection of early works) most often. Two obscure short pieces I particularly like are I met Heine on the Rue Fuerstenberg and Vertical Thoughts.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on February 25, 2020, 08:36:30 AM
I bought the book many years ago (pub. 2000). Feldman's opinionated, which makes for interesting reading IMO. I hadn't purchased any recordings in a long time, but recently ordered For John Cage in connection with number piece listening. I never much got into the graphic score or ultra-long material, but enjoy the rest. Probably listen to Triadic Memories (L. Goldstein) and Ecstasy of the Moment (Etcetera  / Barton Workshop collection of early works) most often. Two obscure short pieces I particularly like are I met Heine on the Rue Fuerstenberg and Vertical Thoughts.

I’m with you on the extremely long works. I think Feldman could say what he wanted to within an hour and that would be enough, IMHO, but to extend it any further would be not really something I’d enjoy, which is why I basically have no interest in String Quartet No. 2 for example.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on February 25, 2020, 08:52:40 AM
I think Feldman could say what he wanted to within an hour and that would be enough

I wonder why he didn't make them shorter, if what you say is the right way to look at it.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on February 25, 2020, 09:06:26 AM
I wonder why he didn't make them shorter, if what you say is the right way to look at it.

I think he took a rather Wagnerian approach to durations towards the end of his life. I’m not why this was the case, but I find that the more condensed works are much more effective, but, I suppose, there’s a certain aural pleasure that could be derived from a 3-hr work for example which I believe is the length of For Christian Wolff and For Philip Guston. As stated in another thread, I find his works from the 60s and 70s to be right up my alley. He didn’t really start getting into these long durations until his ‘Persian rug’ late period works.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: San Antone on February 25, 2020, 09:50:15 AM
Feldman stated that in his later works he became interested in longer durations because of the effect on a person's senses who engaged in a listening experience for long periods.  According to Feldman, a physiological change occurs.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on February 25, 2020, 09:53:29 AM
Ah.

Has anyone here ever had an interesting altered state of mind while listening to a piece of music by Feldman? A halucination maybe? A little vision of the eternity?

When I lived in California in the 1980s I had a friend at UC Santa Cruz who was doing a course called Altered States of Mind where they looked at this sort of thing, and I remember that at the time there were installation art pieces which were designed to alter the state of mind of the spectator.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on February 25, 2020, 09:54:28 AM
Feldman stated that in his later works he became interested in longer durations because of the effect on a person's senses who engaged in a listening experience for long periods.  According to Feldman, a physiological change occurs.

That certainly makes sense and there’s a lot of merit in those longer pieces, I just don’t think I could do the 6 hr. String Quartet No. 2. However, I could divide the music up into listening sessions as I don’t think these longer works were intended to be listened to in one setting anyway or, at least, I’m certainly not going to do that.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: San Antone on February 25, 2020, 10:01:55 AM
That certainly makes sense and there’s a lot of merit in those longer pieces, I just don’t think I could do the 6 hr. String Quartet No. 2. However, I could divide the music up into listening sessions as I don’t think these longer works were intended to be listened to in one setting anyway or, at least, I’m certainly not going to do that.

I don't agree with you here.  Judging from the comment I referenced above, it seems pretty clear to me that Feldman did intend for them to be listened to in one sitting. Otherwise, the physiological change he contemplated would not occur.

But I don't know how many people actually do that.  I haven't done it yet.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on February 25, 2020, 10:05:28 AM
I don't agree with you here.  Judging from the comment I referenced above, it seems pretty clear to me that Feldman did intend for them to be listened to in one sitting. Otherwise, the physiological change he contemplated would not occur.

But I don't know how many people actually do that.  I haven't done it yet.

I never refuted any of your points just merely pointing out that I can’t sit through those long pieces in one setting. I love the Feldman aesthetic, but I couldn’t embrace it for a three hour long session with no breaks.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: petrarch on February 25, 2020, 10:30:54 AM
Has anyone here ever had an interesting altered state of mind while listening to a piece of music by Feldman? A halucination maybe? A little vision of the eternity?

Hallucinatory no, but altered, definitely. I went to his 2nd String Quartet at Carnegie Hall, performed by the Flux Quartet, and I didn't feel time passing at all. The stage was set up with rugs and the audience was invited to change seats or even sit or lie down on stage next to the performers.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: petrarch on February 25, 2020, 10:32:13 AM
Hallucinatory no, but altered, definitely. I went to his 2nd String Quartet at Carnegie Hall, performed by the Flux Quartet, and I didn't feel time passing at all. The stage was set up with rugs and the audience was invited to change seats whenever they felt like it or even sit or lie down on stage next to the performers.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 25, 2020, 10:35:20 AM
Hallucinatory no, but altered, definitely. I went to his 2nd String Quartet at Carnegie Hall, performed by the Flux Quartet, and I didn't feel time passing at all. The stage was set up with rugs and the audience was invited to change seats or even sit or lie down on stage next to the performers.

Nice!
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on February 25, 2020, 10:59:39 AM
Hallucinatory no, but altered, definitely. I went to his 2nd String Quartet at Carnegie Hall, performed by the Flux Quartet, and I didn't feel time passing at all. The stage was set up with rugs and the audience was invited to change seats or even sit or lie down on stage next to the performers.

So now I wonder whether this was what Feldman was trying to achieve. A sonic experience which will give people the illusion of no time passing. Whether that teleological approach makes sense of these enigmatic late works.

I feel a bit uneasy about the idea of the composer as a magician. Like the music is a magic spell . . . incant it and you see time differently. I wonder if any of the composers who post hear think they have  magic powers.

I mentioned halucinations because I remember reading reviews of some concerts -- I think the second quartet -- where the journalist talked about having halicinations. A friend thought it was bullshit, just something the journalist said for effect in the article. But me, I'm not so sure . . .  four - six hours is a long time.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: San Antone on February 25, 2020, 11:55:19 AM
Hallucinatory no, but altered, definitely. I went to his 2nd String Quartet at Carnegie Hall, performed by the Flux Quartet, and I didn't feel time passing at all. The stage was set up with rugs and the audience was invited to change seats or even sit or lie down on stage next to the performers.

The thought came to me that listening to one of Feldman's long works would be much more possible at a live concert.  But I would struggle with a recording.  Cage was also into this idea, and I would guess any composer who conceives of long works has some idea related to the sensory experience for listeners sitting with the music for long periods.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: T. D. on February 25, 2020, 12:21:14 PM
I purchased the California Ear Unit (Bridge) recording of For Philip Guston shortly after it was released.
Wound up selling it because I wasn't likely to listen sufficiently often. (Also, the Bridge recording had very bright sonics, and I prefer the drier sound on Euro labels like Hat Art, Etcetera, etc. But duration was the major issue.)
However, I strongly kicked myself in the a*s last summer because I blew a chance to hear a live performance of FPG - at a semi-local art gallery, but I didn't keep up to date on announcements. The performance was simultaneous with the opening of a Guston exhibit. I truly regret missing that. Ironically, I'm not overly fond of Guston's art (even strongly dislike some periods), but still...
Live performances of the long works (subject to comfortable seating  :P ) appeal to me, but for recordings 2 CDs is about my limit in one sitting.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: petrarch on February 25, 2020, 12:22:50 PM
The thought came to me that listening to one of Feldman's long works would be much more possible at a live concert.  But I would struggle with a recording.  Cage was also into this idea, and I would guess any composer who conceives of long works has some idea related to the sensory experience for listeners sitting with the music for long periods.

There are some recordings that I found similarly remarkable and memorable--one of which was Stockhausen's Hymnen, that I had to listen to twice in a row the first time I got my hands on it, despite its 2-hour duration. It probably helps that the Stockhausen is by definition a fixed medium work (spatialization limitations notwithstanding when compared to the 'concert' version), whereas the Feldman has real live musicians right there with you, physically producing (and, in a sense, reacting) to the music.

The transcendence of form into scale in Feldman (to paraphrase him, when durations shift from about 60 minutes to 90+) I find thoroughly fascinating and made me seek out, explore and enjoy long, single-movement works.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on February 26, 2020, 01:14:11 AM
I think he took a rather Wagnerian approach to durations towards the end of his life.

I think this is a really perceptive point and merits some serious consideration. The thing you have in Wagner is that out of a few simple short ideas, leitmotifs, you can develop opeas lasting 12 hours and more. And yes, in late Feldman, out of a handful of simple short ideas, you have a quartet lasting 6 hours.

Furthermore, if the discussion above is going in a sensible direction, for late Feldman the mystical, the spiritual, was an important raison d'etre of his music. Same for the Wagner of Parsifal of course.



Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on February 26, 2020, 09:57:26 AM
I think this is a really perceptive point and merits some serious consideration. The thing you have in Wagner is that out of a few simple short ideas, leitmotifs, you can develop opeas lasting 12 hours and more. And yes, in late Feldman, out of a handful of simple short ideas, you have a quartet lasting 6 hours.

Furthermore, if the discussion above is going in a sensible direction, for late Feldman the mystical, the spiritual, was an important raison d'etre of his music. Same for the Wagner of Parsifal of course.

Well, to be fair, a work like Bass Clarinet and Percussion is short for a later period Feldman work --- it lasts around 17 minutes and I’m sure there are other examples.

Speaking of Bass Clarinet and Percussion, do check out this great video:

https://www.youtube.com/v/emeDjNSxsCs

I wonder if our Karl knows Samuel Andreyev? I bet they would have some interesting musical conversations. :)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on February 26, 2020, 04:13:44 PM
Well, to be fair, a work like Bass Clarinet and Percussion is short for a later period Feldman work --- it lasts around 17 minutes and I’m sure there are other examples.

Speaking of Bass Clarinet and Percussion, do check out this great video:

https://www.youtube.com/v/emeDjNSxsCs

I wonder if our Karl knows Samuel Andreyev? I bet they would have some interesting musical conversations. :)

This video was helpful when I was first getting into Feldman a few months ago, it's a well thought-out analysis. Andreyev is a total geek, but he definitely knows his music. I'd love to talk music with him sometime though I'm sure the conversation would quickly go over my head.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on February 26, 2020, 05:14:48 PM
This video was helpful when I was first getting into Feldman a few months ago, it's a well thought-out analysis. Andreyev is a total geek, but he definitely knows his music. I'd love to talk music with him sometime though I'm sure the conversation would quickly go over my head.

You say geek as if it’s a bad thing. What helped me the most in getting into Feldman was reading his own essays on music and reading interviews with him.

Some good interviews:

http://thomasmoore.info/interview-morton-feldman/ (http://thomasmoore.info/interview-morton-feldman/)

https://www.cnvill.net/mforton.htm (https://www.cnvill.net/mforton.htm)

A good article from Alex Ross:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2006/06/19/american-sublime (https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2006/06/19/american-sublime)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on February 27, 2020, 01:18:41 AM
My most recent Feldman acquisition, which I've listened to with pleasure, is this one:

(https://img.discogs.com/JgTLjhhkhdvh_ruuqd7rucmbndI=/fit-in/600x537/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-6317784-1416328212-5897.jpeg.jpg)

These pieces come from my favourite of Feldman's two or three "artistic periods"—just after the graphic scores, but before he got into the 1 hour+ pieces of his last decade and a half. The playing is slower than on other recordings I have of these works. The articulation of each note or chord is pellucid and rounded, as though playing a Bach invention; virtually every John Tilbury recording at this stage is a masterclass in piano technique. Simon Reynell as always delivers top quality sound engineering. Also, some might disagree but I find the narrow cardboard slipcases very cute.

I can’t get on with this one at all, whether it’s my response to the performances or the music, I can’t say.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on February 27, 2020, 04:44:11 AM
You say geek as if it’s a bad thing. What helped me the most in getting into Feldman was reading his own essays on music and reading interviews with him.

Some good interviews:

http://thomasmoore.info/interview-morton-feldman/ (http://thomasmoore.info/interview-morton-feldman/)

https://www.cnvill.net/mforton.htm (https://www.cnvill.net/mforton.htm)

A good article from Alex Ross:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2006/06/19/american-sublime (https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2006/06/19/american-sublime)

No, not a bad thing by any means, but it's true! Just look at the guy!  ;D

Anyway, I'll check out these links. I listened to a dialogue between Feldman and John Cage, on Youtube, on my way to work yesterday. It was pretty interesting. Showcases the differences in their personalities pretty well.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on February 27, 2020, 07:38:28 PM
No, not a bad thing by any means, but it's true! Just look at the guy!  ;D

Anyway, I'll check out these links. I listened to a dialogue between Feldman and John Cage, on Youtube, on my way to work yesterday. It was pretty interesting. Showcases the differences in their personalities pretty well.

I’ve been reading Give My Regards To Eighth Street and really enjoying Feldman’s commentary throughout. He was a man full of contradictions, but it’s a fascinating read to say the least.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on February 28, 2020, 04:19:28 AM
I’ve been reading Give My Regards To Eighth Street and really enjoying Feldman’s commentary throughout. He was a man full of contradictions, but it’s a fascinating read to say the least.

Definitely looks like a must-read, especially once I get to exploring more of his music. I will be looking out for it. Glad you have been enjoying it.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: JBS on February 29, 2020, 08:06:30 PM
The outgoing issue of BBC Music magazine (January 2020, the most recent one to show up at Barnes and Noble's magazine section here in the US*) has a 3 page feature on Feldman.

*I don't know where else it might be available in the US for physical purchase.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on February 29, 2020, 08:08:57 PM
The outgoing issue of BBC Music magazine (January 2020, the most recent one to show up at Barnes and Noble's magazine section here in the US*) has a 3 page feature on Feldman.

*I don't know where else it might be available in the US for physical purchase.

Nice! I’ll look into this. Thanks for the info, Jeffrey.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Artem on March 01, 2020, 11:02:34 AM
Feldman on Another Timbre has been a disappointment for me. My favourite Feldman was recorded on HatHut, Wergo and ECM.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on March 01, 2020, 11:34:36 AM
Feldman on Another Timbre has been a disappointment for me. My favourite Feldman was recorded on HatHut, Wergo and ECM.

What did you not like about the Another Timbre recordings?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on March 01, 2020, 12:06:27 PM
Feldman on Another Timbre has been a disappointment for me. My favourite Feldman was recorded on HatHut, Wergo and ECM.

I was slightly tempted to buy this because it's a great favourite of mine -- I collect recordings of Piano Violin Viola Cello

(http://www.anothertimbre.com/_wp_generated/wp8f18e2c9_05_06.jpg)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on March 01, 2020, 12:39:42 PM
I was slightly tempted to buy this because it's a great favourite of mine -- I collect recordings of Piano Violin Viola Cello

(http://www.anothertimbre.com/_wp_generated/wp8f18e2c9_05_06.jpg)

Didn't you write somewhere else recently about how horribly bleak and depressing PVVC was? You doing OK?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on March 01, 2020, 01:06:40 PM
I was slightly tempted to buy this because it's a great favourite of mine -- I collect recordings of Piano Violin Viola Cello

(http://www.anothertimbre.com/_wp_generated/wp8f18e2c9_05_06.jpg)
Which is this?
Recently I’ve been listening to all the stuff on HAT. Generally, I like the way these recordings sound.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on March 01, 2020, 01:11:25 PM
Didn't you write somewhere else recently about how horribly bleak and depressing PVVC was? You doing OK?

No. For Samuel Beckett is horribly bleak. Piano etc transcends that with a vision of the primal void.

Quote
All things are the primal void,
Which is nor born or destroyed;
Nor is it stained or pure,
Nor does it wax or wane.
So, in emptiness, no form,
No feeling, thought, or choice,
Nor is there consciousness.
No eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind;
No colour, sound, smell, taste, touch,
Or what the mind takes hold of,
Nor even act of sensing.
No ignorance or end of it,
Nor all that comes of ignorance;

Which is this?
Recently I’ve been listening to all the stuff on HAT. Generally, I like the way these recordings sound.

http://www.anothertimbre.com/feldmanpvvc.html

Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on March 01, 2020, 02:36:31 PM
@Mandryka:

(https://img.discogs.com/E5bjvWQRxdJ_69TPMdl8ZF5us3I=/fit-in/599x608/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-3579910-1336069843.jpeg.jpg)

This is just sooooooooo depressing, I mean piano, violin, Viola and cello. He must have been unbelievably down in the dumps, Tilbury knows what he wanted if anyone does I guess. Unbearable music, excruciatingly bleak, torture. Somehow the quietness of it makes it even more painful than For Samuel Becket. It feels like one of those EST seminars designed to break you down, but then it doesn’t build you up again.

What did Feldman know, what secret of the universe had he glimpsed, which prompted such hopelessness?

Though to be fair that post was a year and a half ago now! I must have just seen it recently while reading old posts in this thread.

Anyway... your mention of the primal void intrigues me. I went ahead and bought the Hat Hut recording on mp3 for $2. Going to listen to it and see what I think.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on March 01, 2020, 10:43:21 PM
@Mandryka:

Though to be fair that post was a year and a half ago now! I must have just seen it recently while reading old posts in this thread.

Anyway... your mention of the primal void intrigues me. I went ahead and bought the Hat Hut recording on mp3 for $2. Going to listen to it and see what I think.

Ha, the comment about EST still strikes me as pertinent.

Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on March 02, 2020, 02:48:17 AM
Ha, the comment about EST still strikes me as pertinent.

Not sure what you meant by that, though as an American the only thing EST ever meant to me is the time zone I live in.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on March 02, 2020, 03:03:18 AM
Not sure what you meant by that, though as an American the only thing EST ever meant to me is the time zone I live in.

Ah, so kids of your generation don't know about EST. I only had an indirect experience of an EST seminar (if this were "real life" and not the internet I'd tell you the story) They were dangerous, IMO, though others may disagree. They certainly effected the participants "deeply"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhard_Seminars_Training

The seminars were long and gruelling -- hence the relationship to Feldman long form

Quote
Sessions lasted from 9:00 a.m. to midnight or the early hours of the morning, with one meal break.[12] Participants had to hand over wristwatches and were not allowed to take notes, or to speak unless called upon, in which case they waited for a microphone to be brought to them.[13][page needed] The second day of the workshop featured the "danger process".[13]:384 As a way of observing and confronting their own perspective and point of view,[1] groups of participants were brought onto the stage and confronted. They were asked to "imagine that they were afraid of everyone else and then that everyone else was afraid of them"[13]:384 and to re-examine their reflex patterns of living that kept their lives from working.[14] This was followed by interactions on the third and fourth days, covering topics such as reality and the nature of the mind, looking at the possibility that "what is, is and what ain't, ain't," and that "true enlightenment is knowing you are a machine"[13]:384 and culminating in a realization that people do not need to be stuck with their automatic ways of being but can instead be free to choose their ways of being in how they live their lives.[1] Participants were told they were perfect the way they were and were asked to indicate by a show of hands if they "had gotten it".[13][page needed]

Eliezer Sobel said in his article "This is It: est, 20 Years Later":[15]

    I considered the training to be a brilliantly conceived Zen koan, effectively tricking the mind into seeing itself, and in thus seeing, to be simultaneously aware of who was doing the seeing, a transcendent level of consciousness, a place spacious and undefined, distinct from the tired old story that our minds continuously tell us about who we are, and with which we ordinarily identify.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on March 02, 2020, 03:15:14 AM
Ah, so kids of your generation don't know about EST. I only had an indirect experience of an EST seminar (if this were "real life" and not the internet I'd tell you the story) They were dangerous, IMO, though others may disagree. They certainly effected the participants "deeply"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhard_Seminars_Training

The seminars were long and gruelling -- hence the relationship to Feldman long form

Good grief. Sounds like pure torture. I have some research to do now.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on March 02, 2020, 07:04:56 AM
Good grief. Sounds like pure torture. I have some research to do now.
I know it because it’s a joke in a Woody Allen movie though I can’t remember which one or the joke itself.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on March 02, 2020, 04:29:10 PM
A question for those of us here who know Feldman's music far more than I do: Is there a categorical difference or a distinction between Feldman's works with the ultra-utilitarian titles—Piano Violin Viola Cello; Piano & String Quartet; Bass Clarinet & Percussion etc—and those whose titles are dedications—For Bunita Marcus; For Samuel Beckett; Rothko Chapel; For Philip Guston etc...? Or do we hear the same kinds of things in one that we would hear in the other, and it only depends on a piece-by-piece basis...?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on March 02, 2020, 09:37:27 PM
A question for those of us here who know Feldman's music far more than I do: Is there a categorical difference or a distinction between Feldman's works with the ultra-utilitarian titles—Piano Violin Viola Cello; Piano & String Quartet; Bass Clarinet & Percussion etc—and those whose titles are dedications—For Bunita Marcus; For Samuel Beckett; Rothko Chapel; For Philip Guston etc...? Or do we hear the same kinds of things in one that we would hear in the other, and it only depends on a piece-by-piece basis...?

No the titles aren’t don’t think you can draw any conclusions along those likes from the title. For example, For Christian Wolf is based on a pattern of notes which he found in Wolff’s early Duo for Two Violins, and so is String Quartet II.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on March 04, 2020, 04:31:39 PM
Cross posting from the "What are you listening 2 now?" thread...:

Quote
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51mQX8zQ6-L._SY500_.jpg)

Morton Feldman: Rothko Chapel, Why Patterns? Soloists + UC Berkeley Chamber Chorus under Philip Brett; California EAR Unit. On the New Albion label. I have listened to this CD in its entirety about 5 times in the past two weeks. It's absolutely captivating music. I have three other Feldman recordings in my library, but they are all long, late works, which I don't yet connect with in the same way that I do with these two masterpieces. I have been enjoying the different "Regions" of Crippled Symmetry recently on an individual basis, but I know this is not the right way to appreciate this work. Sometime soon I will block off a full hour and a half to listen to the whole thing.

As I wrote there, I have been somewhat struggling to connect with later Feldman, but I find his middle period works absolutely fascinating. Maybe someone can help me out with this, what are some good recordings of '70s (and '60s) Feldman works that are not to be missed? I just ordered a used copy of this:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71dx901IxgL._SS500_.jpg)

... for cheap, and though I expect this recording of the Rothko Chapel will not supersede the New Albion as a favorite, it will be interesting to hear an alternate interpretation. But the real reason I got it was For Frank O'Hara, which appears to be a work from around the same time in a similar vein.

What else? I have been looking at a disc on CPO with Hans Zender conducting the "concertante" works, Oboe & Orchestra, Piano & Orchestra etc. Does anyone have it?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: T. D. on March 04, 2020, 05:05:17 PM
...
What else? I have been looking at a disc on CPO with Hans Zender conducting the "concertante" works, Oboe & Orchestra, Piano & Orchestra etc. Does anyone have it?
Yes, that's the first Feldman recording I bought, probably around 1997. I think it's pretty good, an attractive program, and worth hearing. It was recorded  (correction: 1 piece is live; not sure about the others, but the dates range from 1973 to 1978 and I think one is a premiere), before the big boom in Feldman recordings. IMO the sonics and performances are not up to the very highest standards set by later projects, but they're not bad, and I'm not aware of any other recordings of "Oboe and Orchestra" and "Flute and Orchestra" (could be wrong on this, though).
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on March 05, 2020, 02:49:27 AM
Yes, that's the first Feldman recording I bought, probably around 1997. I think it's pretty good, an attractive program, and worth hearing. It was recorded  (correction: 1 piece is live; not sure about the others, but the dates range from 1973 to 1978 and I think one is a premiere), before the big boom in Feldman recordings. IMO the sonics and performances are not up to the very highest standards set by later projects, but they're not bad, and I'm not aware of any other recordings of "Oboe and Orchestra" and "Flute and Orchestra" (could be wrong on this, though).

Really, that old? Did CPO license it from another label that released it previously?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: T. D. on March 05, 2020, 06:00:44 AM
Really, that old? Did CPO license it from another label that released it previously?

The set was Vol. 11 of CPO's budget-priced "Hans Zender [recently deceased] Edition", mostly contemporary music with some earlier composers (e.g. Mahler). The releases I own from that series have recording dates of similar vintage and bear the Saarländischer Rundfunk logo. Documentation is skimpy. Perhaps a joint project with Zender and the Rundfunk-Sinfonieorchester Saarbrücken?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Artem on March 05, 2020, 01:50:17 PM
What else? I have been looking at a disc on CPO with Hans Zender conducting the "concertante" works, Oboe & Orchestra, Piano & Orchestra etc. Does anyone have it?

I think you may like "The Viola in My Life" disk on ECM. The pieces are from 1970-1971.

As for the question above on Another Timbre, I found that specific disk lacking in terms of players' emotional approach to music. It felt like very well rehearsed playing, but so distant and separated from the music that they play. It feels odd to me.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: T. D. on March 05, 2020, 03:10:29 PM
I think this one is cool for "historical reasons" (since reissued on New World):
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41ZP0GNYX7L.jpg)
Original recordings of all 3 pieces. Feldman conducts the first two and plays piano on the third.
Karen Phillips, for whom The Viola in My Life was written, plays it (and David Tudor is on piano). But only the first 3 movements; the fourth was written after the 1970 recording date! Paul Jacobs is one of the pianists on False Relationships... Eberhard Blum, who later recorded many more Feldman works, plays flute on Why Patterns?.
But the sonics are not as clean as you'll find on more modern releases.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on March 06, 2020, 03:32:26 AM
I think you may like "The Viola in My Life" disk on ECM. The pieces are from 1970-1971.

As for the question above on Another Timbre, I found that specific disk lacking in terms of players' emotional approach to music. It felt like very well rehearsed playing, but so distant and separated from the music that they play. It feels odd to me.

Thanks, I'll check it out.

And to clarify, do you think that this distance is unidiomatic to the music, ie. that it should be approached emotionally?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on March 06, 2020, 06:15:42 AM
Here are Feldman's own comments on three pianists who played Triadic Memories, it's in Goodbye to Eighth Street.  it's evident he likes all three. I've put passages in bold which seem to me to reveal his openness to something which may be called expressiveness.

Quote
David Tudor: amazing reflexes,
focused on just one mosaic at a time,
a nondirectional approach of equal
intensity and clarity, regardless of what
was being played, an accumulative
effect of time being frozen.


Roger Woodward: more traditional,
which also means more unpredictable in
how he shapes and paces. I would call it
a prose style. Where Tudor focused on
a moment, Woodward would find the
quintessential touch of the work, hold
on to it and then as in one giant breath,
articulate the music’s overall scale.
Like
Tudor, Woodward played everything as
primary material. He is a long-distance runner. Tudor jumps high over the bar.
Where Tudor isolates the moment, by
not being influenced by what we might
consider a composition’s cause and
effect, and Woodward finds the right
tone that savours the moment and
extends it.


Aki Takahashi is very different.
Takahashi appears to be absolutely still.
Undisturbed, unperturbed, as if in a
concentrated prayer.
Kafka writes about
approaching his work as if in a state of
prayer….The effect of her playing to me
is that I feel privileged to be invited to a
very religious ritual

Re the Another Timbre Feldman, I have the two piano music, the PVVC and the solo piano music. I'm not in a position to make any comments on the nature of the performances, but I will say that the booklet to the solo music is excellent and is here

https://www.philip-thomas.co.uk/morton-feldman-piano/
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on March 07, 2020, 05:57:46 AM
I'm eagerly awaiting the Two Pianos disc. That 5CD of solo piano music looks excellent too.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: T. D. on March 07, 2020, 09:05:11 AM
I've got to order the Two Pianos disc. I already have good recordings of practically all the music on the (no doubt excellent) 5 CD solo piano set, so will pass on that.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on March 07, 2020, 09:38:30 AM
I've got to order the Two Pianos disc. I already have good recordings of practically all the music on the (no doubt excellent) 5 CD solo piano set, so will pass on that.

I was really taken by the excerpts of it that Another Timbre has on their youtube page. I had to order it, even if it is a little more expensive than my budget usually allows. (I think with the exchange rate it worked out to about 25 USD shipped, still not too bad for a 2CD).
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: T. D. on March 07, 2020, 06:05:23 PM
Thanks. Surprised to find that it's cheapest to order direct from Another Timbre. I added the back catalog "discounted" (GBP 5) John Cage Four^4 to give the illusion of a lower price per disc  ;).
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on March 08, 2020, 09:18:26 AM
https://www.youtube.com/v/4vlfZIza3dU
This is Ixion, from the late 50s early 60s, played by David Tudor. John Tilbury makes these comments on Tudor

Quote from: John Tilbury here https://www.cnvill.net/mftilb.htm
And herein lies the world of difference between Feldman and, in particular, his European peers; because through the infamous softness and slowness of his music and a radical commitment to the muscular, physical and essentially sensual qualities of the art of performance Feldman thwarts the attempts at expressive reduction and control which our conservatory training operates.

When David Tudor or Cardew played Feldman what you heard and experienced with great intensity was the limb as it performed, the fingerpad - that most erotic part of a pianist's body - and the resulting sound was raw and thrilling. In too many performances one is all too conscious of a culture intervening between body and instrument.

Tudor and Cardew were virtuosi, which has nothing to do with velocity or petty digital scramble (Barthes), by virtue of the extraordinary sounds they drew from the piano. Their performances steered a hazardous course generating risk and excitement: the phrasing and articulation 'situational', determined spontaneously by the idiosyncrasies of individual sounds at particular moments, by ambience and acoustics, by the imperfections in the instrument and the dimensions of the room. And this is Feldman's way.

Quote from: John Tilbury in his biography of Cardew
And herein lies the world of difference between Morton Feldman, in particular, anc his European peers; because through the infamous softness and slowness of his music and a radical commitment to the muscular, physical and essentially sensual qualit of the art of performance Feldman refines an aesthetic of musical pleasure which negates the attempts at expressive reduction and control our conservatory training operates. When David Tudor, or Cardew, played Feldman what the listener experienced, with suct, intensity, was the fingerpad, `the only erotic part of a pianist's body' 25 - the limb as t performed - and the resulting sound was raw and thrilling, of a quality which defied Institution, Criticism and Opinion. With too many performers one is all too conscious of a 'polite culture' intervening between body and instrument. Feldman once remarked how so many professionals seemed frightened of thee instrument, somehow alienated from it. In stark contrast, with Tudor and Cardew one sensed an at-oneness, an ability to bridge the gap between player and instrument

Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on March 08, 2020, 10:52:20 PM
In Four Instruments (1965) the players choose the duration of the sounds they make.


I can find three recordings - Another Timbre, Wergo and Mode. The Mode one with the Barton Workshop is considerably slower than the other two.

Another Timbre 11,58
Wergo 12,20
Mode 20,40

 And as with Cage’s Two2, the expansive tempo makes for an interesting experience. I’ve heard all three and Barton Workshop has caught my imagination. It feels eternal, out of time.


(http://www.moderecords.com/catalog/images/107feldman.jpg)


Another Timbre has a tense quality. There’s something that Tilbury says about Feldman - that his idea is to create space rather than fill space. But Tilbury’s own recording seems to me the least successful in this respect. The impression is of music being urgently forced into a preexisting space. I don’t like it.

Despite a tempo similar to Another Tombre, The Wego CD, from Ensemble Avantgarde, is rather more successful I think, and I intend to give it more attention  it includes an extraordinary piece called For Franz Kline which is like nothing I’ve ever heard before.

(https://assets.boomkat.com/spree/products/61366/large/original.jpg)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on March 09, 2020, 06:11:51 AM
The Wergo CD, from Ensemble Avantgarde, is rather more successful I think, and I intend to give it more attention  it includes an extraordinary piece called For Franz Kline which is like nothing I’ve ever heard before.

(https://assets.boomkat.com/spree/products/61366/large/original.jpg)

For Franz Kline is one of my favorite pieces from Feldman. It can also be found on this fantastic recording on the New Albion label:

(https://img.discogs.com/Jdo1FiQMdfjINQ5za6P-_LJoGEc=/fit-in/600x586/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-1153201-1196443559.jpeg.jpg)(https://img.discogs.com/kcmcgBXZzJsmGtqzFUaCI8g_Scc=/fit-in/600x463/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-1153201-1196443576.jpeg.jpg)

I really need to get back into Feldman as I have so many new recordings that have arrived last week (and earlier) that are still in their shrinkwrap.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on March 09, 2020, 07:42:30 AM
^I like what I’m hearing. Just ordered a copy for 8 bones. Any time I can get a Feldman CD under $10 I count it as a victory. :D
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on March 09, 2020, 08:34:16 AM
^I like what I’m hearing. Just ordered a copy for 8 bones. Any time I can get a Feldman CD under $10 I count it as a victory. :D

Nice! A good deal, indeed. 8)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: T. D. on March 09, 2020, 05:47:16 PM
For Franz Kline is one of my favorite pieces from Feldman. It can also be found on this fantastic recording on the New Albion label:

(https://img.discogs.com/Jdo1FiQMdfjINQ5za6P-_LJoGEc=/fit-in/600x586/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-1153201-1196443559.jpeg.jpg)(https://img.discogs.com/kcmcgBXZzJsmGtqzFUaCI8g_Scc=/fit-in/600x463/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-1153201-1196443576.jpeg.jpg)

...
Yes! I recently listened to that (among a few other Feldman recordings I hadn't revisited in years) and was highly impressed. Have been on a Feldman/Cage binge of sorts lately.

BTW, I recently noticed that Marc-Andre Hamelin has released some Feldman recordings. This was a surprise, as I associate MAH with pyrotechnical finger-breaking repertory. Has anyone heard any? They somehow don't appeal to me, but I could be mistaken.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on March 09, 2020, 05:54:41 PM
Yes! I recently listened to that (among a few other Feldman recordings I hadn't revisited in years) and was highly impressed. Have been on a Feldman/Cage binge of sorts lately.

BTW, I recently noticed that Marc-Andre Hamelin has released some Feldman recordings. This was a surprise, as I associate MAH with pyrotechnical finger-breaking repertory. Has anyone heard any? They somehow don't appeal to me, but I could be mistaken.

I’m not a huge Hamelin fan, so I don’t know the merits of his Feldman. He seems to be the wrong man for the job, but I’m simply judging it by face value. I could be wrong (won’t be the first nor the last time I’m sure). I seem to have exited my Feldman phase (it never lasts long unlike his later works --- no pun intended ;)). :)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: T. D. on March 09, 2020, 06:00:47 PM
I’m not a huge Hamelin fan, so I don’t know the merits of his Feldman. He seems to be the wrong man for the job, but I’m simply judging it by face value. I could be wrong (won’t be the first nor the last time I’m sure). ...

My thoughts exactly (emphasis added), disclaimer included. On further review, looks like For Bunita Marcus is Hamelin's only Feldman release so far.
Perhaps my recent binge is to make up for the nearby For Philip Guston event I unconscionably failed to attend last year.  :(
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on March 10, 2020, 07:58:44 AM
I've been listening to Nature Pieces (1951) a set of five short piano pieces which may have been written for dance. It's an early work, but it has a distinctive voice with betrays a bold imagination for rhythms and expressive gestures.  I can find three recordings of the set

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91D-NNUtvXL._SS500_.jpg)     (https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODAyNTY1My4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwidG9Gb3JtYXQiOiJqcGVnIiwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX19LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1MjQ0OTIwNDZ9)     (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/9183x+xlf0L._SS500_.jpg)

Mauser by the way takes three times longer than he "should" in the first one. Yet as far as I know the music is determinate.

I'm very impressed by Phiipp Vandre's phrasing. I shall be exploring this pianist some more.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on March 10, 2020, 03:07:59 PM
I listened to the whole of this:

(https://img.discogs.com/Jdo1FiQMdfjINQ5za6P-_LJoGEc=/fit-in/600x586/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-1153201-1196443559.jpeg.jpg)

... which came to me today, just one day after purchase (gotta love Amazon prime sometimes.) OK, this is absolutely phenomenal all around. The music is oblique and experimental but quite accessible (I think it's the relatively short durations). Something about the angular sharpness to these simple melodies and harmonies really calls to me. Beautiful use of the voice. My favorite on the disc is definitely For Franz Kline, and I would call Pianos and Voices the most challenging; it seems to presage his later work. For the most part these works are '60s and '70s which is proving to be my favorite era of Feldman's music. Wow, he was incredibly prolific and wrote in many styles, all unmistakably Feldmanesque. Was he one of the major voices of the latter half of the 20th century, or what? Definitely one of the most important American composers to ever have lived.

Final comment on the disc, is it just me or is it mixed really loud? I'm not complaining, I often feel that classical CDs are mixed too quietly. Both New Albion Feldman discs are damn good! I want to hear more from this label.

@Mandryka. I will seek out the Nature Pieces, your description has engaged my interest. That Siegfried Mauser Kairos disc sounds fascinating.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on March 10, 2020, 09:31:13 PM
I listened to the whole of
Final comment on the disc, is it just me or is it mixed really loud? I'm not complaining, I often feel that classical CDs are mixed too quietly. Both New Albion Feldman discs are damn good! I want to hear more from this label.


Yes, it is.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on March 11, 2020, 02:03:09 AM
In Four Instruments (1965) the players choose the duration of the sounds they make.


I can find three recordings - Another Timbre, Wergo and Mode. The Mode one with the Barton Workshop is considerably slower than the other two.

Another Timbre 11,58
Wergo 12,20
Mode 20,40

 And as with Cage’s Two2, the expansive tempo makes for an interesting experience. I’ve heard all three and Barton Workshop has caught my imagination. It feels eternal, out of time.


(http://www.moderecords.com/catalog/images/107feldman.jpg)


Another Timbre has a tense quality. There’s something that Tilbury says about Feldman - that his idea is to create space rather than fill space. But Tilbury’s own recording seems to me the least successful in this respect. The impression is of music being urgently forced into a preexisting space. I don’t like it.

Despite a tempo similar to Another Tombre, The Wego CD, from Ensemble Avantgarde, is rather more successful I think, and I intend to give it more attention  it includes an extraordinary piece called For Franz Kline which is like nothing I’ve ever heard before.

(https://assets.boomkat.com/spree/products/61366/large/original.jpg)

I notice that For Franz Kline on this Wergo CD is half the duration of the one on the New Albion. Is it an unfinished version that appears on the Wergo, maybe? Or do they just take it much faster?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: T. D. on March 11, 2020, 09:13:48 AM
I notice that For Franz Kline on this Wergo CD is half the duration of the one on the New Albion. Is it an unfinished version that appears on the Wergo, maybe? Or do they just take it much faster?

The New Albion liner notes state:
By indicating that players proceed at their own pace through this [FFK] score, Feldman ensured that each performance would be a unique experience with its own surprising simultaneities.

So perhaps there's a lot of performer discretion? You can see the score (which is only 4 pages!) at https://issuu.com/editionpeters/docs/fm22 (https://issuu.com/editionpeters/docs/fm22). I don't read music, but don't see any metronome markings.

Re. earlier post: Yes, recording volume is high for a Feldman CD. I've found (admittedly non-exhaustive sampling) that American labels New Albion and Bridge record Feldman at higher output levels and with a brighter acoustic than Euro labels like hatArt and Etcetera. I rather like the higher volume (less cause to adjust playback equipment), but generally prefer the drier Euro sound. No issues with the New Albion release mentioned, though.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on March 11, 2020, 09:24:24 AM
The New Albion liner notes state:
By indicating that players proceed at their own pace through this [FFK] score, Feldman ensured that each performance would be a unique experience with its own surprising simultaneities.

So perhaps there's a lot of performer discretion? You can see the score (which is only 4 pages!) at https://issuu.com/editionpeters/docs/fm22 (https://issuu.com/editionpeters/docs/fm22). I don't read music, but don't see any metronome markings.

Re. earlier post: Yes, recording volume is high for a Feldman CD. I've found (admittedly non-exhaustive sampling) that American labels New Albion and Bridge record Feldman at higher output levels and with a brighter acoustic than Euro labels like hatArt and Etcetera. I rather like the higher volume (less cause to adjust playback equipment), but generally prefer the drier Euro sound. No issues with the New Albion release mentioned, though.

I really love the sonics on the two New Albion Feldman discs I have, as well as the Bridge disc I have with Crippled Symmetry. The Rothko Chapel is mixed significantly quieter than the other one. It is close to the ideal for me in this music. I have a disc coming in the mail to me, another American recording, the première recording of Rothko Chapel, and I'm excited to hear how it differs from the NA. But I'd better check out some of the Euro recordings to see what I think. They sure are numerous.

Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: T. D. on March 11, 2020, 09:36:53 AM
I recall the Bridge For Philip Guston as having a brighter sound than I preferred, though very well-recorded. But I sold the set because the playing time was just too long, so didn't listen all that often. OTOH, some Euro releases can have extremely "dry" (not sure how else to put it) sound.
I also had a problem with Three Voices on New Albion. There was a persistent clicking sound that I couldn't handle. Didn't replace it, so don't know whether I got a defective copy. But pretty much everything else I bought on New Albion (long defunct  :( ) had outstanding sonics.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on March 14, 2020, 05:15:44 AM
I recall the Bridge For Philip Guston as having a brighter sound than I preferred, though very well-recorded. But I sold the set because the playing time was just too long, so didn't listen all that often. OTOH, some Euro releases can have extremely "dry" (not sure how else to put it) sound.
I also had a problem with Three Voices on New Albion. There was a persistent clicking sound that I couldn't handle. Didn't replace it, so don't know whether I got a defective copy. But pretty much everything else I bought on New Albion (long defunct  :( ) had outstanding sonics.

I've been looking at that Three Voices, if I get it, I'll let you know about the clicking. But yes, I love all the New Albion stuff that I have and definitely intend to seek out more, beyond Feldman.

I didn't think I would make it, but I've listened to just about all of Crippled Symmetry. I'm on track 6 of 6 with five minutes to go. The music is an incredibly intricate and sprawling tapestry, and listening to it was (though the composer would likely have vehemently disagreed with me on this) something of a journey.

I have this recording:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/919u7o1MVAL._SS500_.jpg)

I wouldn't change a thing about it. I have seen others express their critiques for this disc but I loved how it sounds, and I love the playing of the ensemble.

Has anyone else listened to Crippled Symmetry in its entirety in the past few months? Curious about other thoughts. I've just learned that Feldman has written an even longer piece for the same ensemble, For Philip Guston at about four hours long, and that's going to be a hard pass from me, at least at this point in my life. Does anyone know about the relationship between Why Patterns?, Crippled Symmetry, and For Philip Guston, all for the same ensemble of flute, keyboard, and pitched percussion? Are these works all related in some way, or are they all completely different beasts?

edit: I love how it ended with minutes of a single repeated note on the glockenspiel. It feels like this is the point into which all the music was coming together.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: petrarch on March 14, 2020, 06:38:38 AM
This might shed some light:

Forgetting Music: Duration, Space, and Remembrance in the Late Music of Morton Feldman (https://publications.lakeforest.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1007&context=seniortheses)

There are a number of other articles and analyses of his late pieces, and I managed to collect quite a few over the years.

My preferences for Feldman recordings is HatHut/HatArt. Sonics and musicians are stellar. Next to those, the series on Mode is a must-have. For Philip Guston was my first foray into Feldman and I absolutely loved it.

Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on March 14, 2020, 09:44:54 AM
This might shed some light:

Forgetting Music: Duration, Space, and Remembrance in the Late Music of Morton Feldman (https://publications.lakeforest.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1007&context=seniortheses)


or maybe not

Quote from: Forgetting Music: Duration, Space, and Remembrance in the Late Music of Morton Feldman p.50


 A problem arises when Feldman begins to write longer music. We are unable to keep our attention focused on the music
for that long and will inevitably lose focus and think of something else. The duration of
the music detracts from our experiencing each aural phenomenon. Feldman’s shorter
pieces were more in the range of time where a listener could remain focused the entire
time. Now that I have introduced this problem a solution seems to be necessary. I do
not, however, have a solution to this problem. I will bring up more problems with
Feldman’s music in the following chapter and they too will remain unresolved.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on March 14, 2020, 09:49:17 AM


edit: I love how it ended with minutes of a single repeated note on the glockenspiel. It feels like this is the point into which all the music was coming together.


Very good -- the most interesting thing anyone has ever said to me about Feldman's long form music

So do you think there is an end, that the structure is basically this?

(https://i.stack.imgur.com/yj90W.png)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: San Antone on March 14, 2020, 11:06:24 AM
Quote
Quote from: Forgetting Music: Duration, Space, and Remembrance in the Late Music of Morton Feldman p.50

     A problem arises when Feldman begins to write longer music. We are unable to keep our attention focused on the music
    for that long and will inevitably lose focus and think of something else. The duration of
    the music detracts from our experiencing each aural phenomenon. Feldman’s shorter
    pieces were more in the range of time where a listener could remain focused the entire
    time. Now that I have introduced this problem a solution seems to be necessary. I do
    not, however, have a solution to this problem. I will bring up more problems with
    Feldman’s music in the following chapter and they too will remain unresolved.

This guy is not very bright, IMO.   ::)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on March 14, 2020, 11:11:56 AM

Very good -- the most interesting thing anyone has ever said to me about Feldman's long form music

So do you think there is an end, that the structure is basically this?

(https://i.stack.imgur.com/yj90W.png)

Maybe, with a lower frequency and/or wavelength, or with some variance in both of those values. The music is not completely symmetrical, it is "crippled", whatever that means.

Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on March 14, 2020, 11:12:32 AM
This guy is not very bright, IMO.   ::)

Hey, he's an undergrad music and philosophy major, give the poor kid a break.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: petrarch on March 14, 2020, 11:39:55 AM
or maybe not

Seriously, not even some, even with all the references?  ::)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on March 31, 2020, 01:01:21 AM
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/tCGmUh5ubUQ/hqdefault.jpg)

Listening to most of this this morning - with Knoop etc on Another Timbre, I was struck by the contrast between strings and piano in the first third, it’s as if the music for strings is attempting to stop the piano breaking free, to pull the piano down. Such tense music! Restless in the sense of no resolution, never relaxed. The sound take is very close, you’re in the front row, and that seems to augment the feeling of being trapped. 
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on March 31, 2020, 05:45:46 AM
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/tCGmUh5ubUQ/hqdefault.jpg)

Listening to most of this this morning - with Knoop etc on Another Timbre, I was struck by the contrast between strings and piano in the first third, it’s as if the music for strings is attempting to stop the piano breaking free, to pull the piano down. Such tense music! Restless in the sense of no resolution, never relaxed. The sound take is very close, you’re in the front row, and that seems to augment the feeling of being trapped.

Interesting. I ought to check it out. I've been listening to the other Another Timbre Feldman set, the Two Pianos music etc., which is earlier Feldman, '50s and '60s. Very great music making, I've been loving it all. I have the Hat-Now-Art version of PVVC but I have yet to listen to it. Late Feldman is still scary to me.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Rinaldo on March 31, 2020, 10:32:50 AM
Has anyone here ever had an interesting altered state of mind while listening to a piece of music by Feldman? A halucination maybe? A little vision of the eternity?

Yes, while listening to Coptic Light. I don't have synesthesia but I vividly recall weird intricate patterns and light tapestries materializing in my head, in a similar way images flash through your brain before falling asleep (and I wasn't sleepy at all, nor under the influence of any kind of drug – the only ones I do is caffeine & alcohol).

The feeling of time stopping that others have described is familiar to me as well: I've experienced it during a live performance of For John Cage. Time was constantly slowing down until.. it wasn't there at all.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on March 31, 2020, 11:39:24 AM
I wonder, are there any other Feldman works that are anything like The King of Denmark? That piece is really something special.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on April 01, 2020, 12:48:18 AM
I wonder, are there any other Feldman works that are anything like The King of Denmark? That piece is really something special.

Maybe Piano Piece For Philip Guston (not to be confused for the piece for little ensemble called For Philip Guston) But it’s not as good because it’s just a piano.

I’ve just discovered a nice thing, For Bass Clarinet and Percussion. Heavy, dark Feldman.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on April 01, 2020, 03:08:29 AM
Maybe Piano Piece For Philip Guston (not to be confused for the piece for little ensemble called For Philip Guston) But it’s not as good because it’s just a piano.

I’ve just discovered a nice thing, For Bass Clarinet and Percussion. Heavy, dark Feldman.

OK, I'll check it out, it's frequently on volumes of Feldman's solo piano works, which is an area I'd like to explore in further depth. If I had the money I might get Philip Thomas' complete set.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on April 08, 2020, 03:49:36 AM
Cross-post from New Releases

(https://d1wtzzt4oxg683.cloudfront.net/images/covers/originals_optimised/213/180463.jpg)

This came out the other day. Has anyone heard it?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on April 20, 2020, 06:20:40 AM
Feldman’s relation to painting (in French)

https://www.cairn.info/revue-archives-de-philosophie-2017-2-page-269.htm#
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on April 20, 2020, 06:26:51 AM
Cross-post from New Releases


(https://d1wtzzt4oxg683.cloudfront.net/images/covers/originals_optimised/213/180463.jpg)

No, I haven’t. I nearly did, they gave a concert with it in London last year, and I wanted to go but didn’t make it.

I know the violinist from his recording (rather good) of music by Finnissy; and the pianist has already recorded For John Cage with an unnamed member of The Smith Quartet. In fact I never listen to it, if I want to hear this music I tend to prefer the extraordinary tone of Paul Zukofsky with Marianne Schroeder. I can imagine that Darragh Morgan’s sound (tense) will suit John Tilbury’s style (tense.)

And guess who that unnamed member of The Smith Quartet was.

Quote
Darragh Morgan
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on April 20, 2020, 06:44:02 AM
And guess who that unnamed member of The Smith Quartet was.

Wow. So this is a re-recording with the same violinist? Or is it merely a reissue?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on April 20, 2020, 06:57:38 AM
Wow. So this is a re-recording with the same violinist? Or is it merely a reissue?

Dunno. Maybe I’ll ask John Tilbury.

I can imagine that Darragh Morgan’s sound (tense) will suit John Tilbury’s style (tense.)

This is totally unfair, I shouldn't have said it. I shall buy the new recording as a penance.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on April 20, 2020, 08:18:41 AM
Wow. So this is a re-recording with the same violinist? Or is it merely a reissue?

New recording, made a couple of years ago.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on April 20, 2020, 08:30:23 AM
Dunno. Maybe I’ll ask John Tilbury.

This is totally unfair, I shouldn't have said it. I shall buy the new recording as a penance.

Unfair as in you shouldn't have called Tilbury's & Morgan's styles tense? Or unfair as in you don't think they should go together...?

In any case, I want you to let me know what you think. I haven't heard For John Cage.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on April 20, 2020, 10:15:52 AM
I haven't heard For John Cage.

It's interesting, he wrote For Christian Wolff, For John Cage and For Philip Guston all in a five year period (I think), all duos, all with their own strong character. There's another outlier duo for violin and piano Spring of Chosroes which is a bit earlier -- For John Cage is maybe similar. There's a tremendous characterful recording of Spring of Chosroes by Zukovsky and Oppens -- presumably they created it.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on April 20, 2020, 10:18:46 AM
It's interesting, he wrote For Christian Wolff, For John Cage and For Philip Guston all in a five year period (I think), all duos, all with their own strong character. There's another outlier duo for violin and piano Spring of Chosroes which is a bit earlier -- For John Cage is maybe similar.

Guston is a trio I believe, same ensemble as Crippled Symmetry & Why Patterns? I don't know much about For Christian Wolff.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on April 20, 2020, 10:19:45 AM
Guston is a trio I believe, same ensemble as Crippled Symmetry & Why Patterns? I don't know much about For Christian Wolff.

ah yes.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Jamie on April 20, 2020, 12:37:51 PM
Recently pulled out the Tilbury All Piano box for the first time in several years and was surprised to find, not sure why, his Bunita Marcus, the final cd of that set, wonderful. Tried the first cd of early piano pieces and had to turn it off. Could have been my mood, the material, not sure. 
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on April 20, 2020, 10:34:37 PM
In the notes for the new (performed 2018) For John Cage, Darragh Morgan says


Quote
I learnt much from my musical encounters with Zukofsky about Feldman’s use of mean-tone intonation and the obvious influence of this on the expressivity of his string writing . . . one begin to perceive the richness and variety of colour which is the material of the music.

And that seems true. But why piano? I mean Tilbury’s piano does not have the overtone richness of the violin, it doesn’t have the colour. He talks of “ John Tilbury’s immaculate pianistic touch” but I can’t help feeling that the contrast between the lovely violin when played with a bow, and the less interesting sound of the piano, 12 pure notes, is a challenge in this music. The plucked violin is quite a different matter of course.

The earlier (2006?) recording that Tilbury and Morgan made is slightly (about 5 minutes) longer, I’d say that the violin is more ethereal, but I’m not sure, both are satisfying. I want to say that I think that there are some very magical ethereal moments in the earlier one. I don’t want to suggest that it’s better than the latter - just not the same.

(https://img.discogs.com/ZILSPiR3K_pdpZbBgO9yhU4ruYk=/fit-in/600x595/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-3285875-1326839023.jpeg.jpg)

The recording engineering is cleaner in the new release, and in music as quiet as this, that matters.


There’s another thing that Morgan says in the notes which, I think, should be quoted for truth, viz:

Quote
Almost all of Feldman’s music is slow and soft. Only at first sight is this a limitation. I see it rather as a narrow door, to whose dimensions one has to adapt oneself (as in ‘Alice in Wonderland’) before one can pass through it into the state of being that is expressed in Feldman’s music . . . When one has passed through the narrow door and got accustomed to the dim light, one realises the range of his imagination and the significant differences that distinguish one piece from another...

In my memory, as a listener rather than a performer or an analyst,  the Feldman duos ans trios and solos from the 1980s can feel formulaic. But that’s an illusion of memory. In fact, they are all very different. There is a formula, like sonata form is a formula, a formula which is big enough to a accommodate  a big enough range of different music.


Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on April 24, 2020, 03:58:33 AM
I've been trying to listen to the second string quartet by Flux today while I work. I might try it tomorrow again. Obviously this is a huge challenge and there's so much imagination here. I think musically it's a very different world from the other 80's chamber stuff.
I've never tried to listen to it while doing nothing else. But I don't think there's a boring moment anyway and I'm sure I'd like to hear a live performance. I was jealous they did it in NYC a few years ago. This is the kind of piece you need to lock yourself into. And I think it'd help to see what's going on.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on April 24, 2020, 05:44:42 AM
I've been trying to listen to the second string quartet by Flux today while I work. I might try it tomorrow again. Obviously this is a huge challenge and there's so much imagination here. I think musically it's a very different world from the other 80's chamber stuff.
I've never tried to listen to it while doing nothing else. But I don't think there's a boring moment anyway and I'm sure I'd like to hear a live performance. I was jealous they did it in NYC a few years ago. This is the kind of piece you need to lock yourself into. And I think it'd help to see what's going on.

Recently I've come to the conclusion that it's not a good idea to listen to this type of music while working or doing the hoover or whatever. There was a comment from Darragh Morgan in the new recording with Knoop, where he used a phrase, something like "enter into Feldman's world" -- and that sounds right to me, you have to open up, you have to submit.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on April 24, 2020, 06:00:14 AM
Recently I've come to the conclusion that it's not a good idea to listen to this type of music while working or doing the hoover or whatever. There was a comment from Darragh Morgan in the new recording with Knoop, where he used a phrase, something like "enter into Feldman's world" -- and that's sounds right to me, you have to open up, you have to submit.
Yes. You simply can’t understand it as background music. When you focus on it, you can really see what’s happening. In the background, it doesn’t make much sense.
I’ve been listening to it while putting my son to sleep tonight. There’s a magic to this world of sound. I wonder, how did he do it?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on April 27, 2020, 02:07:23 PM
Why is it so easy to get sucked into a rabbit hole with Feldman? I was just going to listen to Why Patterns? & here I am several hours and damn near three full CDs later. (& then weeks will go by where I don't listen to his music much at all).

I think I may be starting to get the bug for his late music. I listened to the first part of Crippled Symmetry and only turned it off after the first disc because I had to go somewhere, it was enrapturing. I'm getting excited to check out stuff like Patterns in a Chromatic Field, For John Cage, & Piano & String Quartet. Anything else I ought to look into? I'm not ready to dive into the multi-hour works yet.

I just got Give My Regards to 8th Street in the mail. I'm going to start it when I finish Death in Venice
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on April 27, 2020, 08:43:09 PM
Why is it so easy to get sucked into a rabbit hole with Feldman? I was just going to listen to Why Patterns? & here I am several hours and damn near three full CDs later. (& then weeks will go by where I don't listen to his music much at all).

I think I may be starting to get the bug for his late music. I listened to the first part of Crippled Symmetry and only turned it off after the first disc because I had to go somewhere, it was enrapturing. I'm getting excited to check out stuff like Patterns in a Chromatic Field, For John Cage, & Piano & String Quartet. Anything else I ought to look into? I'm not ready to dive into the multi-hour works yet.

I just got Give My Regards to 8th Street in the mail. I'm going to start it when I finish Death in Venice
the late clarinet piece...it’s like an hour long...I forget the title exactly. Maybe clarinet and string quartet?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on April 28, 2020, 09:59:46 AM
the late clarinet piece...it’s like an hour long...I forget the title exactly. Maybe clarinet and string quartet?

I will most definitely check out Clarinet & String Quartet... there is also the much shorter Bass Clarinet & Percussion which I quite like.

I'm listening to Crippled Symmetry:

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0581/3921/products/9092_large.jpg)

There's a four-note motif on the flute that dominates the final third of disc 1, track 2 of this recording, repeated must be 50 times or more, that is absolutely mesmerizing: G-sharp, down to A, down to D, up to B. It caught me immediately after the first time it plays, then like I said, it repeats over and over and over again, and when it finally stops, I don't want it to go, and I'm lost in the sea of sound all over again. It made me want to cry. That's a stroke of genius if I ever heard one. The motif seems to represent hope or respite. So beautiful.

Comparing Crippled Symmetry against the much shorter Why Patterns?, for the same ensemble, might provide some interesting insight into Feldman's late style. Nothing about this work tells me, "Why Patterns? x 3"—it's completely different. His comment about "music for scale" rather than form really just clicked with me. In Why Patterns?, we can hear the form. It's concise in a way, despite going on for 30 minutes, and one can almost sense a feeling of development throughout. Crippled Symmetry, by comparison, is sprawling, massive, and almost eternal. There is still movement, this is not music of total stillness, but it is slowed down to such an extent that it's disorienting. 

This must be one of the greatest pieces of chamber music I've ever heard. It's really something special.  :)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on April 28, 2020, 10:11:05 AM
(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/oa/65/psco2svk665oa_600.jpg)

Does anyone have this? It's on Qobuz for $3.99 and I may purchase it, but I'm debating whether I might not get the CD instead, mostly so I can read the booklet.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on April 28, 2020, 10:33:08 AM
As far as I can see there is no other way to get a considered commentary of this music other than through CD booklets. I don't have the booklet to that one, I wish I did, the music is worth investigating, the CD contains a magical thing called Bass Clarinet and Percussion.

Oh I forgot, there's this website

http://5against4.com/2012/03/28/morton-feldman-bass-clarinet-and-percussion/
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: petrarch on April 28, 2020, 10:55:40 AM
I just got Give My Regards to 8th Street in the mail. I'm going to start it when I finish Death in Venice

It is very good. That and the collection of interviews and recordings available on YT and in Radio Happenings on Mode are really captivating.

(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/oa/65/psco2svk665oa_600.jpg)

Does anyone have this? It's on Qobuz for $3.99 and I may purchase it, but I'm debating whether I might not get the CD instead, mostly so I can read the booklet.

The booklet has 3.5 pages' worth of text, so not a lot (I didn't check if the English, German and French texts are different). 
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on April 28, 2020, 11:22:19 AM
It is very good. That and the collection of interviews and recordings available on YT and in Radio Happenings on Mode are really captivating.

The booklet has 3.5 pages' worth of text, so not a lot (I didn't check if the English, German and French texts are different).

If you happen to have a scan of it, you'll have definitely made up my mind for me.  ;) Just kidding. I will probably go with the Qobuz in any case, if only because I can't find the CD anywhere except direct from Mode, which wouldn't be cheap.

Mandryka, thanks for the link. I too really enjoy BC&P but I don't have it on CD or in my digital library anywhere.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on May 02, 2020, 11:13:10 AM
Been listening to that Mode clarinet works disc a lot. I'm hooked on Bass Clarinet & Percussion—what a piece. I wish Feldman wrote more percussion oriented works, his writing for this family of instruments is revelatory.

Is there any piece out there that's anything like BC&P? It's nothing like his other works for wind & percussion like Why Patterns? or Crippled Symmetry, great works though they are.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on May 02, 2020, 12:26:45 PM


Is there any piece out there that's anything like BC&P?

This maybe. But you’ll have to use your imagination a bit because that YouTube is with a lute, there are other recorded versions with different accompaniments, including a percussion instrument - a piano.

https://youtube.com/v/Vf2BQtMQNgs

If you can get access to some streaming platform, you may like this

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91Nkfy6ldvL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 02, 2020, 12:41:06 PM
Been listening to that Mode clarinet works disc a lot. I'm hooked on Bass Clarinet & Percussion—what a piece. I wish Feldman wrote more percussion oriented works, his writing for this family of instruments is revelatory.

Is there any piece out there that's anything like BC&P? It's nothing like his other works for wind & percussion like Why Patterns? or Crippled Symmetry, great works though they are.

Bass Clarinet & Percussion is a fantastic piece. I tend to prefer the shorter Feldman works. I don’t know, I just find them more effective.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on May 02, 2020, 01:27:33 PM
This maybe. But you’ll have to use your imagination a bit because that YouTube is with a lute, there are other recorded versions with different accompaniments, including a percussion instrument - a piano.

https://youtube.com/v/Vf2BQtMQNgs

If you can get access to some streaming platform, you may like this

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91Nkfy6ldvL._SS500_.jpg)

I've got Apple Music, I'll see if that's on there.

As for the other one on Youtube, I'll check it out. I haven't been disappointed yet with Another Timbre. I've been hooked on their Feldman Two Pianos disc.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on May 02, 2020, 11:58:27 PM


Is there any piece out there that's anything like BC&P?

This is a worthwhile recording I think

(https://img.discogs.com/TORRhu1ZhmxkxAgGaQ3s-kYK5LU=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-2145210-1320172960.jpeg.jpg)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on May 03, 2020, 02:40:44 AM
This is a worthwhile recording I think

(https://img.discogs.com/TORRhu1ZhmxkxAgGaQ3s-kYK5LU=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-2145210-1320172960.jpeg.jpg)

Thanks I was looking at that too. The reason I decided against it is because I would be duplicating all of those works except "Instruments I" which I've never heard, but it is on Qobuz & I think cheap. Anyway it seems like Feldman's music actually does reward varying interpretations, somewhat to my surprise—ever since I got the Hat-Now-Art recording of Why Patterns? & Crippled Symmetry, I've been listening to it and the California EAR Unit recordings that I also have about 50/50 and both show me different facets of the works in question (tho I haven't heard the Hat-Art Crippled Symmetry in full just yet)

Edit: The samples sound great.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: T. D. on May 03, 2020, 03:50:48 AM
I've previously touted this excellent (oop) collection which includes BCP, some early graphic score material, and quite a few works with percussion:
(https://img.discogs.com/b6nuWurMyoh4ELROHSYqTVUUim4=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-6065243-1410164325-1854.jpeg.jpg)
Physical is scarce/expensive, but maybe it's streamable?
Speaking of New Millennium Ensemble, I really enjoy the obscure I met Heine on the Rue Fuerstenberg, which I heard here (it's been on at least one more recent recording):
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41xXbG6Y%2BoL.jpg)
Yesterday I listened via youtube to The King of Denmark, a graphic score piece for solo percussion. That's interesting and worth a try.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on May 03, 2020, 08:02:05 AM
I've previously touted this excellent (oop) collection which includes BCP, some early graphic score material, and quite a few works with percussion:
(https://img.discogs.com/b6nuWurMyoh4ELROHSYqTVUUim4=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-6065243-1410164325-1854.jpeg.jpg)
Physical is scarce/expensive, but maybe it's streamable?

Yes I like it, the thing which New Millenium and Barton do nicely for my taste  is the balance of sound between percussion and clarinet. In both recordings the time is “undisturbed.”

By the way, I like King of Denmark - I didn’t know it was a graphic score.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on May 03, 2020, 09:34:00 AM
It's quite an interesting looking score I think,

(https://www.stretta-music.com/media/images/015/382015_detail-01.jpg)

Maybe a little simplified from some of his other graph scores.

As for the piece itself, it may be short, but it's one of my favorite Feldman works.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on June 10, 2020, 05:32:48 AM
Suddenly having trouble locating many choices for Violin and String Quartet.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Old San Antone on June 10, 2020, 05:39:31 AM
It's quite an interesting looking score I think,

(https://www.stretta-music.com/media/images/015/382015_detail-01.jpg)

Maybe a little simplified from some of his other graph scores.

As for the piece itself, it may be short, but it's one of my favorite Feldman works.

Is it always performed by percussion?

https://www.youtube.com/v/kuYk2N9dTns
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on June 10, 2020, 10:07:17 AM
Is it always performed by percussion?

https://www.youtube.com/v/kuYk2N9dTns

https://www.youtube.com/v/5E6nkaVE2tE
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on June 11, 2020, 01:37:13 AM
https://www.youtube.com/v/5E6nkaVE2tE

How on earth did you find this?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Artem on July 07, 2020, 11:26:35 AM
Hearing (on youtube) Aki Takahashi playing Triadic Memories has been a revelation to me in terms of ways to appreciate Morton Feldman's music. Her playing time is 60 minutes. I was introduced to this piece by Steffen Schleiermacher who takes all 80 minutes on the MDG disk. Fascinating.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on July 07, 2020, 12:16:22 PM
Hearing (on youtube) Aki Takahashi playing Triadic Memories has been a revelation to me in terms of ways to appreciate Morton Feldman's music. Her playing time is 60 minutes. I was introduced to this piece by Steffen Schleiermacher who takes all 80 minutes on the MDG disk. Fascinating.

Here’s what the man himself said, in Goodbye to eighth street.


Quote
David Tudor: amazing reflexes,
focused on just one mosaic at a time,
a nondirectional approach of equal
intensity and clarity, regardless of what
was being played, an accumulative
effect of time being frozen.

Roger Woodward: more traditional,
which also means more unpredictable in
how he shapes and paces. I would call it
a prose style. Where Tudor focused on
a moment, Woodward would find the
quintessential touch of the work, hold
on to it and then as in one giant breath,
articulate the music’s overall scale. Like
Tudor, Woodward played everything as
primary material. He is a long-distance runner. Tudor jumps high over the bar.
Where Tudor isolates the moment, by
not being influenced by what we might
consider a composition’s cause and
effect, and Woodward finds the right
tone that savours the moment and
extends it.

Aki Takahashi is very different.
Takahashi appears to be absolutely still.
Undisturbed, unperturbed, as if in a
concentrated prayer. Kafka writes about
approaching his work as if in a state of
prayer….The effect of her playing to me
is that I feel privileged to be invited to a
very religious ritual
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on September 21, 2020, 02:13:05 AM
Seems like everyone was listening to Feldman during the thick of the shutdowns over the springtime. I know I was listening to his music nonstop. I burned myself out a bit, but I came out of the exercise respecting him as one of the greatest composers of the century.

Anyway I wanted to bump the thread because I'm revisiting his music for the first time since May. I think I like his middle period works the best for now, though from his late period there are some astonishing masterpieces like Crippled Symmetry.

This disc is seriously phenomenal:

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/sQHPyMm5ldY/maxresdefault.jpg)

I couldn't possibly recommend it highly enough. I just finished Piano Four Hands, what a piece.

Anyone listening to Feldman lately?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on September 21, 2020, 02:16:46 AM
Seems like everyone was listening to Feldman during the thick of the shutdowns over the springtime. I know I was listening to his music nonstop. I burned myself out a bit, but I came out of the exercise respecting him as one of the greatest composers of the century.

Anyway I wanted to bump the thread because I'm revisiting his music for the first time since May. I think I like his middle period works the best for now, though from his late period there are some astonishing masterpieces like Crippled Symmetry.

This disc is seriously phenomenal:

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/sQHPyMm5ldY/maxresdefault.jpg)

I couldn't possibly recommend it highly enough. I just finished Piano Four Hands, what a piece.

Anyone listening to Feldman lately?
I’ve never heard this. I’m going to search it out.
I can’t seem to find it streaming on amazon but I found this:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51l5GTGZ1sL.jpg)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: T. D. on September 21, 2020, 07:55:08 AM
Seems like everyone was listening to Feldman during the thick of the shutdowns over the springtime. I know I was listening to his music nonstop. I burned myself out a bit, but I came out of the exercise respecting him as one of the greatest composers of the century.

Anyway I wanted to bump the thread because I'm revisiting his music for the first time since May. I think I like his middle period works the best for now, though from his late period there are some astonishing masterpieces like Crippled Symmetry.

This disc is seriously phenomenal:

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/sQHPyMm5ldY/maxresdefault.jpg)

I couldn't possibly recommend it highly enough. I just finished Piano Four Hands, what a piece.

Anyone listening to Feldman lately?

I bought that excellent recording back around March/April, even though I already had a good chunk of the piano material on other recordings including this (long OOP) box:
(https://img.discogs.com/b6nuWurMyoh4ELROHSYqTVUUim4=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-6065243-1410164325-1854.jpeg.jpg)

Like you, I was listening to loads of Feldman (and also Cage) at the (local) height of the shutdown. But I haven't revisited for quite a while, lately have preferred louder, more "lively" / "upbeat" music. Maybe I'll switch back when the hurricane season slows down.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on September 21, 2020, 01:08:38 PM
^Lots of Cage for me then as well.

@milk, it might only be available from the label website:

http://www.anothertimbre.com/feldmanpiano.html

That's where I got it from. Well worth the money spent. BTW, it also contains chamber works for other ensembles, all with piano(s) but also strings, percussion etc.

What do you think of the one you found on Amazon? I've never heard of it.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: T. D. on September 21, 2020, 01:59:44 PM
I found it cheapest to order direct from Another Timbre (even with shipping from UK to US, which was commendably fast). Before realizing that, I once bought an AT recording (the very same Feldman Two Pianos iirc) from Squidco, who carry much of the AT catalogue.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on September 21, 2020, 02:58:59 PM
I found it cheapest to order direct from Another Timbre (even with shipping from UK to US, which was commendably fast). Before realizing that, I once bought an AT recording (the very same Feldman Two Pianos iirc) from Squidco, who carry much of the AT catalogue.

Yeah I think it came out to about 20 bucks for the double CD, shipping included. I got it in under two weeks. Even came with a nice "thank you" note from label owner Simon Reynell.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on September 22, 2020, 07:33:55 AM
Yeah I think it came out to about 20 bucks for the double CD, shipping included. I got it in under two weeks. Even came with a nice "thank you" note from label owner Simon Reynell.

It’s a one man operation, he does come across as a nice chap. And I’m assured that he’s a lefty too, so all good.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: T. D. on September 22, 2020, 08:23:19 PM
It’s a one man operation, he does come across as a nice chap. And I’m assured that he’s a lefty too, so all good.

Good to hear. Simon's been most friendly in my dealings with him. I like to support the label, have ordered a few times and listened to loads of samples, currently on the fence concerning a couple of potential orders. I must say that an awful lot of the AT online samples (by diverse composers) sound more than vaguely reminiscent of Feldman or Cage, though.  ;)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on September 23, 2020, 02:01:04 PM
Good to hear. Simon's been most friendly in my dealings with him. I like to support the label, have ordered a few times and listened to loads of samples, currently on the fence concerning a couple of potential orders. I must say that an awful lot of the AT online samples (by diverse composers) sound more than vaguely reminiscent of Feldman or Cage, though.  ;)

This is true, that's a reason why I haven't really branched out to many of the other composers (along with the fact that I've heard of almost none of them). I understand a lot of it is free improvisatory stuff, too. Kind of its own tradition.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: hvbias on September 28, 2020, 01:52:28 PM
Yesterday I listened to all of String Quartet 2. This was setup by selecting the Flux Quartet's recording on Youtube and jumping to some helpful time markers that people left in the comments, I certainly enjoyed what I heard at those moments so I decided to listen to it the next day. All of this spurred on by Igor Levit's latest album having a recording of Palais de Mari on it. I respect Levit as a musician and human being even if I'm not usually taken by his interpretations; to have something so far out of the standard repertoire from a major label's darling pianist piqued my interest again. I've listened to Feldman in the past but never really thought too much about it, a sort of balanced impassivity would be the best way to describe my reaction to it.

But it all came together yesterday, it made sense. It was magnificent. I could hear that the piece was clearly "divided", for instance a section that abruptly transitions to the strings playing pizzicato and remaining in that segment for a while, but like looking at a time lapsed glacier it was still part of the whole glacier. The closest thing I can think of musically to this feeling is some of Sorabji's longer pieces.

I think the major thing that radically changed my opinion is no longer listening to this music on headphones, I think having the sound in the room projected forward and backward (depth) creates a startling difference. And may be why people that experience Feldman's music live have written loads about it. I have never experienced this level of appreciation with regard to performance with hifi equipment or headphones or speakers. Usually it's just like "this obviously sounds better than my old equipment, I'm not changing my mind about liking or not liking a certain performance". I've come to appreciate nuances in performances more that better equipment let me hear but again nothing to this extent.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Old San Antone on September 28, 2020, 04:07:19 PM
Yesterday I listened to all of String Quartet 2. This was setup by selecting the Flux Quartet's recording on Youtube and jumping to some helpful time markers that people left in the comments, I certainly enjoyed what I heard at those moments so I decided to listen to it the next day. All of this spurred on by Igor Levit's latest album having a recording of Palais de Mari on it. I respect Levit as a musician and human being even if I'm not usually taken by his interpretations; to have something so far out of the standard repertoire from a major label's darling pianist piqued my interest again. I've listened to Feldman in the past but never really thought too much about it, a sort of balanced impassivity would be the best way to describe my reaction to it.

But it all came together yesterday, it made sense. It was magnificent. I could hear that the piece was clearly "divided", for instance a section that abruptly transitions to the strings playing pizzicato and remaining in that segment for a while, but like looking at a time lapsed glacier it was still part of the whole glacier. The closest thing I can think of musically to this feeling is some of Sorabji's longer pieces.

I think the major thing that radically changed my opinion is no longer listening to this music on headphones, I think having the sound in the room projected forward and backward (depth) creates a startling difference. And may be why people that experience Feldman's music live have written loads about it. I have never experienced this level of appreciation with regard to performance with hifi equipment or headphones or speakers. Usually it's just like "this obviously sounds better than my old equipment, I'm not changing my mind about liking or not liking a certain performance". I've come to appreciate nuances in performances more that better equipment let me hear but again nothing to this extent.

It is wonderful when something clicks.  I never listen on headphones partly because of what you describe.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: JBS on September 28, 2020, 05:17:15 PM
Yesterday I listened to all of String Quartet 2. This was setup by selecting the Flux Quartet's recording on Youtube and jumping to some helpful time markers that people left in the comments, I certainly enjoyed what I heard at those moments so I decided to listen to it the next day. All of this spurred on by Igor Levit's latest album having a recording of Palais de Mari on it. I respect Levit as a musician and human being even if I'm not usually taken by his interpretations; to have something so far out of the standard repertoire from a major label's darling pianist piqued my interest again. I've listened to Feldman in the past but never really thought too much about it, a sort of balanced impassivity would be the best way to describe my reaction to it.



I just got that Levitt CD, and Palais de Mari is probably the most impressive work on it.  (That is is by far the longest individual piece may have something to do with that.)
It's the first Feldman work I have heard (albeit I haven't heard that much by him) that made me want to listen to it again.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Old San Antone on September 29, 2020, 04:32:17 AM
I just got that Levitt CD, and Palais de Mari is probably the most impressive work on it.  (That is is by far the longest individual piece may have something to do with that.)
It's the first Feldman work I have heard (albeit I haven't heard that much by him) that made me want to listen to it again.

If I am not mistaken, Levit plays Palais faster than usual.  I was wrong, I was thinking of Alan Feinberg.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: JBS on September 29, 2020, 04:08:54 PM
If I am not mistaken, Levit plays Palais faster than usual.  I was wrong, I was thinking of Alan Feinberg.

Levit's timing is 28:46.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Old San Antone on September 29, 2020, 04:56:18 PM
Levit's timing is 28:46.

Well, then he's on the slow side - but that's okay with Feldman.  I'd rather have a performer take Feldman slowly than rushed.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on September 29, 2020, 08:19:10 PM
The Palais de Mari here lasts 39 minutes

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/811OVg5JAqL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Old San Antone on September 30, 2020, 12:59:38 AM
The Palais de Mari here lasts 39 minutes

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/811OVg5JAqL._SS500_.jpg)

That's ten minutes longer than any I've seen before.  But I'm listening to it now and (while I've only been with it a few minutes) it seems all right.  as I said, Feldman can survive, even thrive if taken, "too slow" but too fast destroys his music, IMO.  It might bog down.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on September 30, 2020, 01:19:10 AM
Tilbury does it in 24 minutes!
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Old San Antone on September 30, 2020, 01:25:34 AM
Tilbury does it in 24 minutes!

Alan Feinberg 21:51
Aleck Karis 22:01
Andreas Mühlen 22:02
Steffan Schleiermacher 22:49
Daniel N. Deal 23:29

Those are just the ones on Spotify.  A saw a description of the work saying duration of between 20-25 minutes.  But there are a number that are longer, and I prefer a slower pace.  But 39+ minutes might be too much.  I turned it off - but will go back to her performance and try to stay with it.

Sabine Liebner's recording is about right, IMO.

https://www.youtube.com/v/BaOXPkMnnGE
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on September 30, 2020, 01:32:40 AM
The only Palais de Mari I've heard is Karis on Bridge. Appears it's one of the faster ones, then. Tempo isn't particularly important to me in Feldman. If it's good, it's good. That being said I'm not sure how I feel about the Karis. It's on his CD which also features works by Wolpe and Webern, being Feldman's teacher and grand-teacher respectively. His playing seems to have a bit of a clinical feel.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: T. D. on September 30, 2020, 07:48:36 AM
Only recording I own is Marianne Schroeder at 24:42. I find her a reliable performer, based on other works of which I've heard multiple recordings.
I often chuckle about Feldman's commentary on a performance of his String Quartet: "IT'S TOO F***G LOUD AND IT'S TOO F***G FAST!" (MF was somewhat of a potty mouth).
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on October 01, 2020, 08:21:17 AM
Can we talk a bit about the post Feldman composers, composers who somehow developed what he started? What is there and is there anything with a distinctive voice? Or do they all sound like Feldman ripoffs? Did he have any famous pupils?

Wikipedia lists two Feldman pupils - Kyle Gann and Ilza Nogueira.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Old San Antone on October 01, 2020, 09:06:55 AM
Bunita Marcus must be considered a pupil, she claims he stole from her in his late work.  But her music is more harmonically developed, more conventional.  I've forgotten what she said he stole, but she felt his piece dedicated to her was a clumsy effort to flirt.  He used some of her ideas in it.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: T. D. on October 01, 2020, 09:49:07 AM
Interesting, I used to follow Kyle Gann's blog (last entry 2016) when he had a more active Internet presence, didn't know he was a Feldman pupil.
I don't think his music is at all like Feldman's, main label I'd attach to Gann is "microtonal".
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on October 01, 2020, 10:20:08 AM
Birtwistle was a friend of Feldman's and this is a piece he wrote in Feldman's memory (it's nice!) Birtwistle said

Quote
There is a lot of mystery attached to the piece, but at the same time it is very formal. I was a very good friend of Morton Feldman, and I sort of wrote that in a sort of influence of him. But it is the opposite of Feldman, because where Feldman's music is vertical, La Plage is horizontal and is concerned with varied lines.

https://www.youtube.com/v/Bh5kPnZcPT8&ab_channel=pionake

And then Boulez said this about Eclat

Quote
I was listening to a work by Morton Feldman. It does not matter which one. Of course, I was perfectly aware of the fact that I was listening to the event more than the music itself, but then, at that moment, the idea of Eclat came to my mind. Under the influence of Feldman's piece I realized that one could compose music with short cells, even single chords, which come from nothing and disappear into nothing. I had long planned to write something with instruments suitable for that, but the idea itself cropped up at that time

https://www.youtube.com/v/6hZxInEtbzU&ab_channel=DanielBrusch

All found on this excellent looking website -- lots of things on it to keep us occupied

https://www.cnvill.net/mfhomage.htm
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: T. D. on October 01, 2020, 11:16:52 AM
By some strange coincidence, just last night I was flipping through the collection of Feldman writings Give My Regards to Eighth Street (purchased and initially read long ago).
I'd forgotten how prominent Boulez was in the book, and was surprised by the number of Feldman-Boulez (or vice versa ;) )discussions included/cited.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on October 01, 2020, 12:11:51 PM
By some strange coincidence, just last night I was flipping through the collection of Feldman writings Give My Regards to Eighth Street (purchased and initially read long ago).
I'd forgotten how prominent Boulez was in the book, and was surprised by the number of Feldman-Boulez (or vice versa ;) )discussions included/cited.

It's presumably because Feldman had a better reception in Europe, London and Paris especially, than he did in the USA, with its staid music establishment.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: T. D. on October 01, 2020, 03:09:55 PM
It's presumably because Feldman had a better reception in Europe, London and Paris especially, than he did in the USA, with its staid music establishment.
Yes, agreed.
I think you have the book (Give my regards to Eighth Street), but quoting p. 117 (paperback edition):

In 1972, for instance, I had two three-hour one-man shows on the BBC, plus orchestral performances of The Viola in My Life and Rothko Chapel. I've become part of musical life in England. In America there's really no such thing as "part of musical life."

Here it's more like they know you exist, so they don't have to play you. In Italy they like me. In France I'm hardly known, and when I'm played, they don't care for it.

It's like this: my eleven-year-old nephew went up to Leinsdorf at Tanglewood a few years ago and asked him for his autograph.
"Well, young man. You are a musician?"
"No, but my uncle is."
"Ah. What is his name?"
"Morton Feldman."
"Ah. Congratulations."
Congratulations. But he will never play me.

Once Charles Munch was a listener at a concert where one of my works was played. He came over and kissed me. Put his arm around me and kissed me. He said, "You are a poet." But he will never play me.

Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: hvbias on October 02, 2020, 01:32:49 PM
I just got that Levitt CD, and Palais de Mari is probably the most impressive work on it.  (That is is by far the longest individual piece may have something to do with that.)
It's the first Feldman work I have heard (albeit I haven't heard that much by him) that made me want to listen to it again.

I would say Palais de Mari was the most interesting thing on it. Prior to getting interested in Feldman again I was mostly in it for the Bach/Busoni Chorale Preludes, I was not taken by the performances on first listen... just sounded too homogeneous and same. I hope I change my mind on them since my favorite performances are all incomplete recordings.

I've been listening to the Philip Thomas Complete Piano Music box from Another Timbre and also enjoying this much more this time around. Triadic Memories is the best thing I've heard so far.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on October 04, 2020, 03:58:12 PM
I've been listening to the Philip Thomas Complete Piano Music box from Another Timbre and also enjoying this much more this time around. Triadic Memories is the best thing I've heard so far.

I really want that set, but don't know if I'm ready to drop 50 bucks on it just yet. I haven't found much inspiration in Feldman's solo piano music thus far.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: T. D. on October 04, 2020, 04:43:11 PM
I really want that set, but don't know if I'm ready to drop 50 bucks on it just yet. I haven't found much inspiration in Feldman's solo piano music thus far.

I agree with the above post about Triadic Memories being a fantastic piece.
And...it just so happens that Louis Goldstein's excellent and long oop recording (which I purchased upon release) is on Youtube!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY4hczcLp3g

Maybe you could use that as a litmus test. Buy the box or not depending on how much you like Goldstein's T M. I expect Philip Thomas's performance would be comparably good. Goldstein and Thomas are also outstanding Cage interpreters, but that's a subject for other threads...
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Old San Antone on October 04, 2020, 05:08:13 PM
I would say Palais de Mari was the most interesting thing on it. Prior to getting interested in Feldman again I was mostly in it for the Bach/Busoni Chorale Preludes, I was not taken by the performances on first listen... just sounded too homogeneous and same. I hope I change my mind on them since my favorite performances are all incomplete recordings.

I've been listening to the Philip Thomas Complete Piano Music box from Another Timbre and also enjoying this much more this time around. Triadic Memories is the best thing I've heard so far.

I had been thinking about ordering that set, but then completely forgot about it until I read your post.  I went ahead and ordered it, and am now looking forward to its arrival.

 8)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: hvbias on October 04, 2020, 05:24:23 PM
I really want that set, but don't know if I'm ready to drop 50 bucks on it just yet. I haven't found much inspiration in Feldman's solo piano music thus far.

This must have been one of my "drinking 140 proof bourbon purchases", nearly did that last week with a set of speakers that cost significantly more than my first car  :laugh:

Buzzed purchase aside I'm just a bit of a piano nerd so it was interesting to me. String Quartet 2 sort of flipped my whole world around and reframed Feldman's music anew for me so I've been enjoying it more now, I didn't even make it all the way through it the first time.

I've been listening to some of the Cage number pieces, mostly Two 2 and I'm not really getting this right now. I started thinking that I liked one that was ~ 45 minutes on Youtube compared to the hour plus recording on Another Timbre, and had me asking do I really like Cage if I prefer the shorter one  ;D

Old San Antone - enjoy!
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Old San Antone on October 04, 2020, 06:26:56 PM
This must have been one of my "drinking 140 proof bourbon purchases", nearly did that last week with a set of speakers that cost significantly more than my first car  :laugh:

Buzzed purchase aside I'm just a bit of a piano nerd so it was interesting to me. String Quartet 2 sort of flipped my whole world around and reframed Feldman's music anew for me so I've been enjoying it more now, I didn't even make it all the way through it the first time.

I've been listening to some of the Cage number pieces, mostly Two 2 and I'm not really getting this right now. I started thinking that I liked one that was ~ 45 minutes on Youtube compared to the hour plus recording on Another Timbre, and had me asking do I really like Cage if I prefer the shorter one  ;D

Old San Antone - enjoy!

I have the Barton Workshop  Cage number pieces box, and it's one of my favorite purchases.  I fully expect to enjoy the Feldman piano box similarly.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Daverz on October 04, 2020, 08:23:52 PM
Info on the Another Timbre set here:

http://www.anothertimbre.com/mortonfeldmanpiano.html

And "sleevenotes" (now that term tells how old the author is)

https://www.philip-thomas.co.uk/morton-feldman-piano/
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on October 04, 2020, 11:39:31 PM
I listened to Last Piano, a set of four pieces from 1959, played by Philip Thomas and by John Tilbury. I think Philip Thomas is too slow. Is Tilbury too fast? Quite possibly.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on October 05, 2020, 02:35:58 AM
I've ordered Aki Takahashi playing Palais de Mari and several other piano works as part of the Mode Feldman Edition. Managed to find a copy for under 10 bucks, which is always a win for a Feldman recording. I love this label. They have similar editions for Cage and Xenakis (possibly other composers) and it's all great. Hopefully this will help me click with Feldman piano music. The composer is on record admiring Ms. Takahashi's playing. It's one of the longer PdM's out there at over 29 minutes.

Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Old San Antone on October 05, 2020, 03:38:27 AM
Here's and excerpt of Philip Thomas playing Triadic Memories.

https://www.youtube.com/v/6baxt0EOhgo
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Old San Antone on October 05, 2020, 03:40:06 AM
I've ordered Aki Takahashi playing Palais de Mari and several other piano works as part of the Mode Feldman Edition. Managed to find a copy for under 10 bucks, which is always a win for a Feldman recording. I love this label. They have similar editions for Cage and Xenakis (possibly other composers) and it's all great. Hopefully this will help me click with Feldman piano music. The composer is on record admiring Ms. Takahashi's playing. It's one of the longer PdM's out there at over 29 minutes.

I usually like Aki Takahashi's recordings of Feldman and Cage.  Hope his Palais de Mari does it for you.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on October 05, 2020, 05:39:21 AM
I usually like Aki Takahashi's recordings of Feldman and Cage.  Hope his Palais de Mari does it for you.

her
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on October 05, 2020, 05:46:16 AM
I've ordered Aki Takahashi playing Palais de Mari and several other piano works as part of the Mode Feldman Edition. Managed to find a copy for under 10 bucks, which is always a win for a Feldman recording. I love this label. They have similar editions for Cage and Xenakis (possibly other composers) and it's all great. Hopefully this will help me click with Feldman piano music. The composer is on record admiring Ms. Takahashi's playing. It's one of the longer PdM's out there at over 29 minutes.

well here it is

https://www.youtube.com/v/46X7s2T93XY&ab_channel=Pourceuxquelelangagead%C3%A9sert%C3%A9s

and here's what he said

Quote
Takahashi appears to be absolutely still.
Undisturbed, unperturbed, as if in a
concentrated prayer. Kafka writes about
approaching his work as if in a state of
prayer….The effect of her playing to me
is that I feel privileged to be invited to a
very religious ritual


To me, that just shows how subjective responses are -- I just don't hear what Feldman heard in the performance.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Old San Antone on October 05, 2020, 05:48:17 AM
her

Oops.  I haven't focused on her appearance, obviously.   ::)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on October 05, 2020, 05:52:23 AM
Ha

Here's a pimped up Triadic Memories -- makes me want to go back to San Francisco -- come on medics, find a vaccine quick!

https://www.youtube.com/v/vAkKzBidoHs&ab_channel=TheLabSF
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: amw on October 05, 2020, 06:13:29 AM
Oops.  I haven't focused on her appearance, obviously.   ::)
To be fair her brother is Yuji Takahashi, also a very good pianist associated with experimental repertoire (though not much Feldman in particular from him I don’t think) and I know I’ve confused the two of them before. They have a joint recording of some Cage piano pieces which is quite interesting.

Off topic though....
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on October 05, 2020, 02:11:15 PM
well here it is

https://www.youtube.com/v/46X7s2T93XY&ab_channel=Pourceuxquelelangagead%C3%A9sert%C3%A9s

and here's what he said


To me, that just shows how subjective responses are -- I just don't hear what Feldman heard in the performance.

Why is Ms. Takahashi's Triadic Memories so much shorter than the others out there (at 61:18)? Marilyn Nonken on Mode is 93:48, Roger Woodward is 87:33, Sabine Liebner on Oehms is over two hours! Does she rush terribly?  ;D

Why on earth is there such a wide variety of Feldman recordings out there compared to virtually any other late C20 composer?! I love it, I can't complain in the slightest, other than the fact that I have to choose between 10 artists I've never heard of for any given work, but it seems unfair to the other great talents out there.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on October 05, 2020, 03:17:40 PM
Thoughts on Feldman orchestral music, anyone? Seems his chamber music gets the vast majority of the attention. I just picked up this:

(https://i.postimg.cc/FK21Rtc9/image-2020-10-05-T183453-232.jpg)

Only heard Flute and Orchestra thus far. Pretty nice, if a little episodic. Considering how spacious Feldman can make three instruments sound (or even just one), it should come as no surprise that this music is absolutely massive, maybe too much so. I guess the emphasis on the soloist (whose part sounds quite simple) kind of keeps the music anchored to the ground.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: T. D. on October 05, 2020, 03:36:21 PM
Thoughts on Feldman orchestral music, anyone? Seems his chamber music gets the vast majority of the attention. I just picked up this:

(https://i.postimg.cc/FK21Rtc9/image-2020-10-05-T183453-232.jpg)

Only heard Flute and Orchestra thus far. Pretty nice, if a little episodic. Considering how spacious Feldman can make three instruments sound (or even just one), it should come as no surprise that this music is absolutely massive, maybe too much so. I guess the emphasis on the soloist (whose part sounds quite simple) kind of keeps the music anchored to the ground.

I've always been more into Feldman's chamber/solo works than orchestral, but that's my general preference, not just Feldman.
This cpo set was the first Feldman recording I bought. It's early, premieres or close, recorded (1970s) well before the "Feldman boom".
I think the set is pretty good but not a barn-burner. More recent recordings would likely be preferable, but iirc this box contains the only available recording of at least one of the pieces. [Added: This is the only recording of "Flute + O" I know of. There was an Argo CD with "Cello" and "Piano" and a Hat Art CD entitled Atlantis with "Oboe". But these do seem under-recorded compared to much of Feldman's oeuvre.  ;) ]
In the orchestral genre, these "instrument + orchestra" pieces seem to get far less attention than Coptic Light, Rothko Chapel, etc. I haven't listened to the various works often enough to opine on the justification for that. OTOH, I like Zender and Palm and consider Woodward always worth hearing, so don't regret my purchase.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on October 06, 2020, 12:42:53 AM
Why is Ms. Takahashi's Triadic Memories so much shorter than the others out there (at 61:18)? Marilyn Nonken on Mode is 93:48, Roger Woodward is 87:33, Sabine Liebner on Oehms is over two hours! Does she rush terribly?  ;D

Why on earth is there such a wide variety of Feldman recordings out there compared to virtually any other late C20 composer?! I love it, I can't complain in the slightest, other than the fact that I have to choose between 10 artists I've never heard of for any given work, but it seems unfair to the other great talents out there.

Did late Feldman write tempo indications? What seems most strange is how, given the speed, Feldman could have said the interpretation is prayerful. Maybe I don’t understand prayer, maybe he was talking about a performance very different than the one on record, maybe he was just out of his head when he said that . . .
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: T. D. on October 06, 2020, 01:53:17 AM
Did late Feldman write tempo indications? What seems most strange is how, given the speed, Feldman could have said the interpretation is prayerful. Maybe I don’t understand prayer, maybe he was talking about a performance very different than the one on record, maybe he was just out of his head when he said that . . .

No tempo indications for Triadic Memories.

See Marilyn Nonken's notes: https://www.dramonline.org/media/786477.pdf

And Aki Takahashi's performance "along with the score": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46X7s2T93XY
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: vers la flamme on October 06, 2020, 02:59:56 AM
Did late Feldman write tempo indications? What seems most strange is how, given the speed, Feldman could have said the interpretation is prayerful. Maybe I don’t understand prayer, maybe he was talking about a performance very different than the one on record, maybe he was just out of his head when he said that . . .

I don't know what he meant, but I don't think by "prayerful" he meant "slow". That bit about rushing was, of course, a joke. But I think the lack of tempo indications has resulted in a huge variety of interpretations at many different tempi. I have a feeling Feldman would have appreciated that, given his famous comments on three different pianists of his work which he all praised for being completely different (I don't have the quote at the moment, so please correct me if I'm wrong).
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: T. D. on October 06, 2020, 06:37:12 AM
I don't know what he meant, but I don't think by "prayerful" he meant "slow". That bit about rushing was, of course, a joke. But I think the lack of tempo indications has resulted in a huge variety of interpretations at many different tempi. I have a feeling Feldman would have appreciated that, given his famous comments on three different pianists of his work which he all praised for being completely different (I don't have the quote at the moment, so please correct me if I'm wrong).

In the Triadic Memories section of Give My Regards to Eighth Street, "prayerful" seems to pertain to appearance. But there is a funny/ironic (considering the recording's tempo) passage:
 
"...because Miss Takahashi keeps the pedal half-down throughout the piece, and I don't want you to feel in a sense that she is one of those pianists that never take the pedal off [laughter]..."

I don't fully understand this, because most of the score pages I saw on the Youtube video cited (disclosure: I didn't check them all) already indicate "1/2 Ped." Maybe that means she keeps the pedal half-down on the pages that don't specify it? Or maybe (she co-commissioned the piece) her input led to the "1/2 Ped." markings? I dunno.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: hvbias on October 06, 2020, 06:50:10 AM
I've ordered Aki Takahashi playing Palais de Mari and several other piano works as part of the Mode Feldman Edition. Managed to find a copy for under 10 bucks, which is always a win for a Feldman recording. I love this label. They have similar editions for Cage and Xenakis (possibly other composers) and it's all great. Hopefully this will help me click with Feldman piano music. The composer is on record admiring Ms. Takahashi's playing. It's one of the longer PdM's out there at over 29 minutes.

A large part of their catalog is out of print and hard to buy. I have one of their older Feldman CDs that even points to their domain mode.com (seems like quite a valuable four letter domain) which is now some corporate page.

If anyone detests String Quartet 2 and wants to sell me the Flux Quartet recording at non-flipper prices send me a message  :D
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: hvbias on October 06, 2020, 06:56:09 AM
Why on earth is there such a wide variety of Feldman recordings out there compared to virtually any other late C20 composer?! I love it, I can't complain in the slightest, other than the fact that I have to choose between 10 artists I've never heard of for any given work, but it seems unfair to the other great talents out there.

I would be interested in reading from Feldman scholars why there is this sudden interest in his work in the 21st century.

Another big time 20th C composer is Ligeti and he has been in my heavy rotation again, I've been looking for more CDs to add and not really finding all that much outside of what I have. Besides Pieter Wispelwey's magnificent slow, haunting first recording of the Cello Sonata.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: springrite on October 06, 2020, 07:36:36 AM
A large part of their catalog is out of print and hard to buy. I have one of their older Feldman CDs that even points to their domain mode.com (seems like quite a valuable four letter domain) which is now some corporate page.

If anyone detests String Quartet 2 and wants to sell me the Flux Quartet recording at non-flipper prices send me a message  :D
Is that recording OOP? I have yet to listen to it in its entirety. I think I gave it a couple of 20 minutes spins only.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on October 06, 2020, 07:44:12 AM
In the Triadic Memories section of Give My Regards to Eighth Street, "prayerful" seems to pertain to appearance. But there is a funny/ironic (considering the recording's tempo) passage:
 
"...because Miss Takahashi keeps the pedal half-down throughout the piece, and I don't want you to feel in a sense that she is one of those pianists that never take the pedal off [laughter]..."

I don't fully understand this, because most of the score pages I saw on the Youtube video cited (disclosure: I didn't check them all) already indicate "1/2 Ped." Maybe that means she keeps the pedal half-down on the pages that don't specify it? Or maybe (she co-commissioned the piece) her input led to the "1/2 Ped." markings? I dunno.

Very good work, finding that.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on October 06, 2020, 06:22:58 PM
Very good work, finding that.
it’s interesting to me that she was in Japan last year playing Schubert. No Feldman. I guess like any geriatric audience, Feldman wouldn’t keep them awake.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: T. D. on October 06, 2020, 06:36:02 PM
A large part of their catalog is out of print and hard to buy. I have one of their older Feldman CDs that even points to their domain mode.com (seems like quite a valuable four letter domain) which is now some corporate page.

If anyone detests String Quartet 2 and wants to sell me the Flux Quartet recording at non-flipper prices send me a message  :D

There's one on discogs for US$34.99 + $6 S/H which doesn't seem outrageous if you really want it.
Disclosure: I have no connection with the seller.  ;) In fact, I don't love the sonority of Feldman's compositions for SQ (prefer to hear some piano or percussion), am not interested in the ultra-long SQ II, and never owned a recording thereof.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on October 06, 2020, 07:32:36 PM
it’s interesting to me that she was in Japan last year playing Schubert. No Feldman. I guess like any geriatric audience, Feldman wouldn’t keep them awake.

She’s released a lot of Schubert CDs recently, they’re not bad at all, a bit tense sometimes maybe, but that could be a good thing.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: T. D. on October 13, 2020, 08:15:06 PM
Back to the subject of Feldman students...I purchased a CD (my third) of Mamoru Fujieda's music and was surprised to find (probably once knew, but had forgotten) that he was "a student of Feldman", presumably when Feldman was at UCSD in the '80s. I never know exactly what "student" means - in the case of famous composer/teachers, I sometimes suspect that it translates as "once took a course from" - but found this interesting list:

http://www.radioswissclassic.ch/en/music-database/musician/518114665a2340bc17c894aae14b1cb80e6cd/biography?app=true

Notable students
Julius Eastman
Mamoru Fujieda
Kyle Gann
Orlando Jacinto Garcia
Tom Johnson
Joëlle Léandre
Fred Lonberg-Holm
Bunita Marcus
Bobby Previte
Elliott Sharp
Bernadette Speach


Really interesting and eclectic roster, subject to the above reservation.  ;)
Title: Live "Rothko Chapel" this Friday from Belgium
Post by: Brewski on November 03, 2020, 09:33:18 AM
Feldman fans, take note!

This Friday, the Brussels Philharmonic, Flemish Radio Choir, and conductor George Jackson in this fascinating program, livestreamed:

Anna Thorvaldsdottir: Streaming Arhythmia
Claire-Mélanie Sinnhuber (b. 1973): Chahut (pour 15 musiciens) WORLD PREMIERE
Morton Feldman: Rothko Chapel

https://www.arsmusica.be/nl/events/feldman-rothko-chapel/

--Bruce
Title: Feldman 'Palais de Mari' tonight at 7pm (EST)
Post by: Brewski on November 17, 2020, 10:49:01 AM
Tonight, pianist Sarah Rothenberg (of DACAMERA in Houston) performs Feldman's Palais de Mari (1986), in a film called The Departing Landscape. A Zoom discussion and Q&A will follow. Registration is free at the link below:

https://www.dacamera.com/?event=music-time-feldman-ancient-galleries

--Bruce
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on January 04, 2021, 03:38:20 AM
For Philip Guston and For Christian Wolff are favorites of mine. I guess I prefer the Hat Hit recordings but, these works being so long, I haven’t had a lot of chances to compare. I admit I’ve only listened to them all the way through once, and that was while doing something else. I mostly listen to portions.
I wonder if anyone has any thoughts on the choices. I’ve listened to California Ear Unit. I can’t say why one would be better than the other except the Hat Hut seems to be the slower version. There’s a version by something called the S.E.M. Ensemble. None of these is very new and I guess I prefer the sound of Hat Hut but there’s not a huge difference.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mirror Image on January 04, 2021, 07:01:20 AM
For this listener, I’m still in awe of Rothko Chapel whenever I hear it. I also like For Franz Kline, Cello and Orchestra, Violin and Orchestra, Bass Clarinet and Percussion, The Viola in My Life and a few others. Those really long works (over 2 hrs.) haven’t really appealed to me due to their lack of textural variety. I know when you listen to these longer works, you’re supposed to kind of let them wash over you, so you can enter a certain state of mind, but I could never get to this point and become rather frustrated with the musical experience.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: T. D. on January 04, 2021, 07:06:37 AM
For Philip Guston and For Christian Wolff are favorites of mine. I guess I prefer the Hat Hit recordings but, these works being so long, I haven’t had a lot of chances to compare. I admit I’ve only listened to them all the way through once, and that was while doing something else. I mostly listen to portions.
I wonder if anyone has any thoughts on the choices. I’ve listened to California Ear Unit. I can’t say why one would be better than the other except the Hat Hut seems to be the slower version. There’s a version by something called the S.E.M. Ensemble. None of these is very new and I guess I prefer the sound of Hat Hut but there’s not a huge difference.

FWIW, I bought the California Ear Unit For Philip Guston (Bridge) when released. It was recorded with a very bright acoustic which wasn't to my taste (YMMV) and I sold it (also, the work is so long that I wasn't going to listen much). My preference is the drier acoustic of Hat and other Euro labels. But many people seem to like the Bridge.

Dog w/a Bone (who recorded S. E. M.) was* a project of the Paula Cooper Gallery, NYC. There are only 7 recordings (per Discogs), and they're surely OOP. I saw the S. E. M. Ensemble (NYC new music specialists, cond. Petr Kotik) perform Feldman (or maybe it was Cage? So long ago that I'm not sure, but there were also Fluxus (!?) composers on the program) and others at the Paula Cooper Gallery, back around the turn of the millennium. It's a respectable and experienced group, and I doubt their recordings could be markedly inferior to alternatives.

* Maybe the label still exists. There were releases in 2010 and 2017 after a flurry in 2000 and 2001.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Artem on January 04, 2021, 02:34:39 PM
The only version of For Philip Guston that I have and heard is on Wergo. I think it is pretty good and very well recorded. I only listened to it once in its entirety. For a lack of a better term, i did get that transcendental feeling when the music ended. I though I could touch the quietness in the room after all the ringing sounds stopped. This doesn't happen to me with the shorter pieces of Feldman's music, although I listen to them more often these days. Having a kid around changes one's musical habits and especially so when one listens to Feldman, I feel.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on January 05, 2021, 06:42:49 AM
The only version of For Philip Guston that I have and heard is on Wergo. I think it is pretty good and very well recorded. I only listened to it once in its entirety. For a lack of a better term, i did get that transcendental feeling when the music ended. I though I could touch the quietness in the room after all the ringing sounds stopped. This doesn't happen to me with the shorter pieces of Feldman's music, although I listen to them more often these days. Having a kid around changes one's musical habits and especially so when one listens to Feldman, I feel.
Having two young kids, I can second that. Although I have put these chamber pieces on lately for nap time. They're OK. I mean some of Feldman's stuff is too unnerving for a 3-year old but these are OK in small doses for them. I like the High Hut stuff though I'm not sure why. 
Title: Saturday: 3 Feldman concerts by Apartment House
Post by: Brewski on January 08, 2021, 07:06:59 AM
On Saturday, the great, UK-based new music group Apartment House is doing three Feldman concerts, livestreamed from Wigmore Hall. The concerts are free, but they are happy to accept contributions of any amount. More info here, on the Wigmore Hall YouTube page:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJEwPH-wbOTa341mZyJ9NSw/videos?view=2&sort=dd&live_view=502&shelf_id=4

The middle concert features Piano and String Quartet, surrounded by two concerts of his shorter works.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Saturday: 3 Feldman concerts by Apartment House
Post by: T. D. on January 08, 2021, 07:25:55 AM
On Saturday, the great, UK-based new music group Apartment House is doing three Feldman concerts, livestreamed from Wigmore Hall. The concerts are free, but they are happy to accept contributions of any amount. More info here, on the Wigmore Hall YouTube page:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJEwPH-wbOTa341mZyJ9NSw/videos?view=2&sort=dd&live_view=502&shelf_id=4

The middle concert features Piano and String Quartet, surrounded by two concerts of his shorter works.

--Bruce

Thanks! Highly interesting and diverse program of the shorter works. Quite a bit of early graphic score material.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: hvbias on January 08, 2021, 03:59:37 PM
"Neither" has probably been the fastest I've come to enjoy a Feldman piece, I loved it the first time I heard it. Also in my heavy rotation this week was this CD of For John Cage from Darragh Morgan/John Tilbury that came out last year, so far the finest performance I've heard for it. Seems like the CD was only available for a very short time, but the download is still up.

(https://i.imgur.com/HGAqxiJ.jpg)
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Brewski on January 09, 2021, 06:57:39 PM
On January 20 at 11:00 pm (EST, and yes, a late-night event), pianist Marilyn Nonken will perform Feldman's Triadic Memories, livestreamed from her studio in New York. I have heard her do this piece twice live, and can recommend without hesitation. Registration is required, pay what you wish. (I chipped in $20.)

https://www.bowerbird.org/event/marilyn-nonken-performs-feldman-liminal-states/?fbclid=IwAR3MYIGFljjuX9sJhfl2uy5JXu5WzjkqIvpLZQ9R3VX02MDIEAx0TDmUfew

--Bruce
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: T. D. on January 10, 2021, 07:54:02 AM
FYI,

Read my weekly marketing e-mail, and Berkshire Record Outlet just stocked several Feldman releases on Hat Art. (Also a James Tenney solo bass disc and some Anthony Braxtons, if anyone cares.)
Their website is extremely clunky and slow, but does function if one is patient.

Disclaimer: I'm only a customer and have no other relationship with BRO.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: hvbias on January 15, 2021, 01:19:38 PM
I really liked Marc-Andre Hamelin's interpretation of For Bunita Marcus (I believe the second slowest one I've heard) but frustratingly Hyperion have added some digital processing like ambience or ringing quality to the middle and upper registers of the piano. For me kills a lot of the enjoyment of this, barely listenable on headphones and just acceptable on speakers. I'm not sure why Harmonia Mundi and Hyperion do this to many of their solo piano recordings.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: petrarch on January 15, 2021, 01:28:20 PM
Hyperion have added some digital processing like ambience or ringing quality to the middle and upper registers of the piano

Do you have any more details about it? A cursory listen to the samples on their website sounds like resonance and reverberation of the hall it was recorded in.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: hvbias on January 15, 2021, 01:36:54 PM
Do you have any more details about it? A cursory listen to the samples on their website sounds like resonance and reverberation of the hall it was recorded in.

It sounds artificially added to me because it isn't as obvious in the bass registers and it also sounds more like ringing on the recording than ambiance.

I'll see if Marc-Andre Hamelin has an email and shoot him a question seeing what he thinks, or if it's what he heard in monitoring.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Daverz on January 15, 2021, 06:08:02 PM
FYI,

Read my weekly marketing e-mail, and Berkshire Record Outlet just stocked several Feldman releases on Hat Art. (Also a James Tenney solo bass disc and some Anthony Braxtons, if anyone cares.)
Their website is extremely clunky and slow, but does function if one is patient.

Disclaimer: I'm only a customer and have no other relationship with BRO.

No need to be shy about it, some of us have had affairs with BRO going back nearly 30 years.  I still remember filling out the forms in the back of the paper catalogs.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on February 25, 2021, 12:21:43 PM
https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/11432433/of-repetition-habit-and-involuntary-memory-an-brian-kane

Essay on Piano, Violin, Viola, Cello. Good essay I think.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Leo K. on February 26, 2021, 11:26:13 AM
I've fallen in love with Feldman's Violin and Orchestra - WOW
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on February 26, 2021, 12:34:12 PM
Essay on the first scheduled performance of the second quartet, which was cancelled

https://www.cnvill.net/mflunberry2.pdf


Departing Landscapes:
Morton Feldman’s String Quartet II
and Triadic Memories
Clark Lunberry
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Old San Antone on February 26, 2021, 04:49:53 PM
Essay on the first scheduled performance of the second quartet, which was cancelled

https://www.cnvill.net/mflunberry2.pdf


Departing Landscapes:
Morton Feldman’s String Quartet II
and Triadic Memories
Clark Lunberry

This quote is important, IMO:

Feldman, echoing Cage, wrote of his earliest compositional orientation that, “Only by ‘unfixing’ the elements traditionally used to construct a piece of music could the sounds exist in themselves—not as symbols, or memories which were memories of other music to begin with” (35).  The stated desire of the composer was to penetrate beneath, beyond, the perceived historical obstructions to hearing, arriving unencumbered at the origins of unmediated sound,into the very heart of its sonorous matter.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on February 26, 2021, 08:44:19 PM
I've fallen in love with Feldman's Violin and Orchestra - WOW

Some extraordinary sounds from the orchestra.

If there is repetition or variation of “modules” they’re so separated it’s hard to me sure. Very hard for me to get any sense of overall form. His music is totally elusive, ineffable.

I keep coming back to an idea of Stockhausen’s - that moment form is about the eternal present. I wonder if that’s the key to the mystery of Feldman.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Brewski on March 04, 2021, 03:54:08 PM
Marilyn Nonken's performance of Triadic Memories, originally streamed in January, is available for viewing during March at the link below. I have now heard her do the piece live three times. If you're curious, don't hesitate.

https://www.bowerbird.org/nonken/?fbclid=IwAR3EA1q1LLZM7d0f-BKh04IQz50Jn7h6SL7gfarASHEwi8zljQcvKKginAg

--Bruce
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Artem on March 09, 2021, 04:58:34 AM
I listened to Coptic Light recorded on CPO recently and wanted to share a very good description of it from Kyle Gann.

Quote
The texture is dense throughout, to the point that details are impossible to grasp; as in a late Mark Rothko canvas, color is applied thickly yet edges remain indistinct. Within each section of the orchestra, pitches are echoed back and forth in varying, off-centered rhythmic placements. As a result, the harmonic structure is actually rather stable over long periods, but manifested in filmy waves of sound in which pitches bouncing around the orchestra are a challenge to the ear’s ability to focus.
https://americansymphony.org/concert-notes/coptic-light/ (https://americansymphony.org/concert-notes/coptic-light/)



Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Brewski on March 09, 2021, 06:00:22 AM
I listened to Coptic Light recorded on CPO recently and wanted to share a very good description of it from Kyle Gann.

Thanks! Looking on YouTube, I didn't realize there are so many performances of it (relatively speaking), including the one you mentioned. And Gann does a good job of analyzing why it plays tricks with your ears.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOxqLdOIzk4

I was at the first performance, in the 1980s with the NY Philharmonic, and didn't quite appreciate it at the time. The only other one I've heard is the live one with Eötvös and the Concertgebouw, which is fantastic.

--Bruce

Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Artem on March 10, 2021, 05:26:24 AM
https://www.cnvill.net/mfrecs.pdf (https://www.cnvill.net/mfrecs.pdf) lists 10 recordings of Coptic Light available on cd, which is pretty impressive.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Brewski on March 10, 2021, 12:51:11 PM
https://www.cnvill.net/mfrecs.pdf (https://www.cnvill.net/mfrecs.pdf) lists 10 recordings of Coptic Light available on cd, which is pretty impressive.

Thanks for making me aware of a source new to me. (I recognize Chris Villars's name, but hadn't come across his site.)

And didn't realize there are 17 versions of Triadic Memories floating about, either!

--Bruce
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: milk on March 26, 2021, 04:59:53 PM
I’m listening to the Pellegrini Quartet’s recording of Violin and String Quartet. This piece doesn’t get mentioned much. Do you think this is a successful work?
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on March 27, 2021, 02:38:28 PM
I’m listening to the Pellegrini Quartet’s recording of Violin and String Quartet. This piece doesn’t get mentioned much. Do you think this is a successful work?


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41Q7HXMFQEL.jpg)


I listened to the last 20 minutes - not your recording but this one. Those Feldman dissonances are really cool in small ensembles like this. And much to my surprise three violins, a viola and a cello sound good together. Do I really want two hours of it though? . . . Not today.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on May 04, 2021, 05:14:55 AM
Herbert Henck playing Triadic Memories

https://soundcloud.com/user-985460328/sets/herbert-henck-beginner-studio
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Mandryka on July 24, 2021, 11:55:39 PM
Does anyone know if Feldman was aware of Radulescu? Or even vice versa.


This may be a crazy line of thinking. But listening to Radukescu’s 4th quartet made me think very much of the harmony and structure of For Samuel Beckett.
Title: Re: Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Post by: Artem on July 26, 2021, 12:23:39 PM
Herbert Henck playing Triadic Memories

https://soundcloud.com/user-985460328/sets/herbert-henck-beginner-studio

Almost like Reinbert de Leeuw playing Satie.