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The Music Room => Great Recordings and Reviews => Topic started by: Mandryka on August 28, 2009, 04:42:11 AM

Title: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Mandryka on August 28, 2009, 04:42:11 AM
I enjoy Gieseking's recording a lot. In fact, it's probably my favourite Giekeking performance. He never bangs even in the more bouncy pasages, and the lyricism in some of the dances towards the end -- 14 especially -- is beautiful.

I can see that Cortot is good, but the sound is not so great.

I don't enjoy Firkusny – I can't explain why. His performance doesn't involve me. I obviously have a problem with this pianist because I have the same reaction to his Overgrown Path.

Are there any distinguished modern recordings of this piece?

Epigraph from Schumann's Davidsbündlertänze:

In each and every age
joy and sorrow are mingled:
Remain pious in joy,
and be ready for sorrow with courage
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Bulldog on August 28, 2009, 05:51:51 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 28, 2009, 04:42:11 AM
I enjoy Gieseking's recording a lot. In fact, it's probably my favourite Giekeking performance. He never bangs even in the more bouncy pasages, and the lyricism in some of the dances towards the end -- 14 especially -- is beautiful.

I can see that Cortot is good, but the sound is not so great.

I don't enjoy Firkusny – I can't explain why. His performance doesn't involve me. I obviously have a problem with this pianist because I have the same reaction to his Overgrown Path.

Are there any distinguished modern recordings of this piece?


My eight favored versions: Gieseking, Cortot, Backhaus, Schein, Zacharias, Cooper, Kempff and Anda.  I pefer Backhaus most; he's entirely wild and unpredictable.  For the modern route, Ann Schein on Ivory Classics takes my breath away with her transcendent representation of Eusebius.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Scarpia on August 28, 2009, 08:36:22 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 28, 2009, 04:42:11 AM
I enjoy Gieseking's recording a lot. In fact, it's probably my favourite Giekeking performance. He never bangs even in the more bouncy pasages, and the lyricism in some of the dances towards the end -- 14 especially -- is beautiful.

I can see that Cortot is good, but the sound is not so great.

I don't enjoy Firkusny – I can't explain why. His performance doesn't involve me. I obviously have a problem with this pianist because I have the same reaction to his Overgrown Path.

Are there any distinguished modern recordings of this piece?

I also didn't like Firkunsy.  I only came to appreciate the piece when I head Pollini's recording.  I generally like Pollini's Schumann.  A minimum of wallowing, seems to find structure in the music where others don't.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Mandryka on August 28, 2009, 09:31:19 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on August 28, 2009, 05:51:51 AM
I pefer Backhaus most; he's entirely wild and unpredictable.  

You can't do this to me -- I can't find it anywhere.

I know that wild side of Backhaus because I have just been listening to his early Paganini Variations. Quite a contrast from some of the maturer records.

Dog looks happy.

Quote from: Scarpia on August 28, 2009, 08:36:22 AM
I generally like Pollini's Schumann.  

I may give that a try. I like Pollini in concert, but I always feel that the DG records -- at least the ones I know -- are a bit flat sounding (e.g. the Chopin Nocturnes disc.) But I will give it a try.

It is interesting that we all feel a bit negative about Firkusny.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Bulldog on August 28, 2009, 09:50:59 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 28, 2009, 09:31:19 AM
You can't do this to me -- I can't find it anywhere.


You not alone in failing to find the Backhaus Davidsbundlertanze.  I got my copy a few years ago on the Piano Library/Enterprise label.  The fluttering sound is close to awful, but Backhaus easily overcomes it.

If you're interested in a burned copy, pm me.  I'd be glad to ship you one.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Scarpia on August 28, 2009, 02:25:34 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 28, 2009, 09:31:19 AMI may give that a try. I like Pollini in concert, but I always feel that the DG records -- at least the ones I know -- are a bit flat sounding (e.g. the Chopin Nocturnes disc.) But I will give it a try.

The sound on early DG recordings of Pollini is often atrocious.  This is a relatively late recording which is acceptable.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Bulldog on August 28, 2009, 03:30:17 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on August 28, 2009, 02:25:34 PM
The sound on early DG recordings of Pollini is often atrocious.  This is a relatively late recording which is acceptable.


I found the sound on the Pollini/Davidsbundlertanze recording to be exceptional.  Unfortunately, Pollini's Eusebius wasn't quite that good.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Herman on August 28, 2009, 03:32:44 PM
Well, one of the best post-1970 recordings is Perahia on CBS. It's one of his first, long-hair recordings.

I'd like to mention that this is my favorite Schumann opus.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Scarpia on August 28, 2009, 03:41:29 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on August 28, 2009, 03:30:17 PM
I found the sound on the Pollini/Davidsbundlertanze recording to be exceptional.  Unfortunately, Pollini's Eusebius wasn't quite that good.

I would stop short of exceptional because it was too closely recorded for my taste.  Listening on headphones, sort of like your head is inside the piano.  But more satisfactory when listening with proper speakers.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Bulldog on August 28, 2009, 04:31:42 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on August 28, 2009, 03:41:29 PM
I would stop short of exceptional because it was too closely recorded for my taste.  Listening on headphones, sort of like your head is inside the piano.  But more satisfactory when listening with proper speakers.


Okay, although my "exceptional" comment was based on headphone listening.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Bulldog on August 28, 2009, 04:41:49 PM
Quote from: Herman on August 28, 2009, 03:32:44 PM
Well, one of the best post-1970 recordings is Perahia on CBS. It's one of his first, long-hair recordings.

I'd like to mention that this is my favorite Schumann opus.

Perahia's is a fine version, but I find him a little under-powering, low on angst and a little too elegant for my tastes.  For those wanting a "down and dirty" approach such as the Backhaus, Perahia is too cultivated.

Having said the above, Perahia is superlative in Movements 3, 7, 13, 14 and 15.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Mandryka on August 28, 2009, 11:25:56 PM
Quote from: Herman on August 28, 2009, 03:32:44 PM

I'd like to mention that this is my favorite Schumann opus.

Yes -- I think it's mine as well -- though I am very fond of Kreisleriana too.

Did anyone here see tha Balanchine Ballet?  I've just ordered a video recording.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Peregrine on August 29, 2009, 02:22:07 AM
Quote from: Herman on August 28, 2009, 03:32:44 PM
Well, one of the best post-1970 recordings is Perahia on CBS. It's one of his first, long-hair recordings.



Yes, I'm quite partial to that recording.
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: Herman on August 29, 2009, 04:42:15 AM
Yesterday I found a Imogen Cooper recording of DBT on Ottava in a used bin. Let's see what that one's like...
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: Bulldog on August 29, 2009, 09:29:22 AM
Quote from: Herman on August 29, 2009, 04:42:15 AM
Yesterday I found a Imogen Cooper recording of DBT on Ottava in a used bin. Let's see what that one's like...

Good choice - I think you'll enjoy it.
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: Holden on August 29, 2009, 01:09:59 PM
I've got Kuerti and it sounds very good though this is a Schumann work I'm not very familiar with.
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: Mandryka on August 29, 2009, 11:15:37 PM
My neighbour is a Schumann fan and his preferred version is by Anatol Ugorsky.

He has lent me the CD and I have played it just once -- first impressions are positive, though it doesn't have the smooth plasticity of Gieseking. The lyrical movements are played really tenderly. And Ugorsky is a master of piano tones, and he's great at the quite, confidential style.

In the bouncy music he's very lively; there's a strong pulse -- as if they were dances you would actually dance to.


But -- there is something a bit ugly about the sound he makes when he plays crescendo.


I once read a comment on rmcr which said that DG put mikes right inside the body of the piano to try to capture the sound as it would actually appear to the pianist. Well my bet is that they have done this here and the result is a slight twang of wires.

But this is a small point really -- Ugorsky's good, interesting.
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: Herman on August 30, 2009, 01:27:49 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 29, 2009, 11:15:37 PM
I once read a comment on rmcr which said that DG put mikes right inside the body of the piano to try to capture the sound as it would actually appear to the pianist. Well my bet is that they have done this here and the result is a slight twang of wires.

I doubt this is the case. Typical internet gossip.
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: Mandryka on September 06, 2009, 10:12:31 AM
Balanchine wrote a ballet for Davidsbündlertänze and this is a VHS recording of a New Your City Ballet performance of it. Only on VHS as far as I know.

Well worth having. It's Balanchine so it's not exactly cutting edge -- but that's no hardship. Marvelous gestures involving the whole body. Simple inoffensive set and costimes. Piano accompaniment. Beautiful.

I'd love it if Pina Bausch or even Robert Wilson choreographed this -- but hell, Balanchine is great in his way, and these tänze make great dances.

Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: Herman on September 06, 2009, 01:22:38 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 06, 2009, 10:12:31 AM
Balanchine wrote a ballet for Davidsbündlertänze and this is a VHS recording of a New Your City Ballet performance of it. Only on VHS as far as I know.

Well worth having. It's Balanchine so it's not exactly cutting edge -- but that's no hardship. Marvelous gestures involving the whole body. Simple inoffensive set and costimes. Piano accompaniment. Beautiful.

I'd love it if Pina Bausch or even Robert Wilson choreographed this -- but hell, Balanchine is great in his way, and these tänze make great dances.

Baffling. Perhaps you're trying to say you like modern dance better than ballet. It's a bit like saying it's too bad Schumann didn't write for flute. Balanchine is arguably the greatest ballet choreographer of the twentieth century. DBT is a beautiful work of his, it's just not from his best years.
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: Mandryka on September 06, 2009, 09:28:23 PM
Quote from: Herman on September 06, 2009, 01:22:38 PM
Baffling. Perhaps you're trying to say you like modern dance better than ballet. It's a bit like saying it's too bad Schumann didn't write for flute. Balanchine is arguably the greatest ballet choreographer of the twentieth century. DBT is a beautiful work of his, it's just not from his best years.

I dunno Herman. Balanchine is great. This is beautiful -- and powerful. There's a scene where they are all dancing with their arms raised which has the effect of jubilation, extasy.

But I would like to see what Pina Bausch would do with it. That's all.

I like some modern dance it's true, and I like some ballet. I find that movement is a very direct communicator for me: I am as emotionally effected by movement as I am by music.  So I like both I guess.
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: ccar on September 15, 2009, 02:07:27 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 28, 2009, 04:42:11 AM
I enjoy Gieseking's recording a lot. In fact, it's probably my favourite Giekeking performance. He never bangs even in the more bouncy pasages, and the lyricism in some of the dances towards the end -- 14 especially -- is beautiful.

I do like the Davidsbundlertanze pieces very much. And Gieseking is always a phenomenal artist-interpreter.
Apart from Gieseking (I have the Andante 1947 Berlin recording - note there is reference in some reviews and editions to a 1942 version but in my "1942" Andromeda ANDRCD 9009 it is the same 1947 recording) I also would like to share a mention to a not so well known artist I enjoy - Catherine Collard - and from whom I have 2 different Davidsbundlertanze readings - 1973(?) and 1989. Unfortunately she died prematurely. Does anyone have a personal impression about her ?
     
Carlos
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: Herman on September 16, 2009, 04:59:39 AM
I have the Cath Collard Davidsbundlertanze too. I got a copy from longtime GMG member Ezodisy.

It's a fine version of this piece, just lacking that essential touch of madness IMO, as do most.
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: ccar on September 16, 2009, 03:02:13 PM
Quote from: Herman on September 16, 2009, 04:59:39 AM
I have the Cath Collard Davidsbundlertanze too. I got a copy from longtime GMG member Ezodisy.

It's a fine version of this piece, just lacking that essential touch of madness IMO, as do most.

Some madness (specially if combined with talent and taste) may be a fascinating ingredient. But, as you said, a very rare one. Where do you remember it in the Davidsbundelrtanze - Cortot ?

Carlos   
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: mjwal on November 02, 2009, 01:21:46 PM
I imprinted on Gieseking's op.6, and some of it is transcendent in a way that will make a roomful of musical innocents* fall silent & listen raptly (I experienced this when I was a post-grad student many years ago in a flat I shared with physics students. It is my favourite Schumann piano work; the Fantasie is No.2, Kreisleriana 3. Or the other way round...
*This does not mean they were dumb, simply not very experienced with classical music.
I have very much appreciated the DG Anda version recently re-issued by Brilliant - but that special quantum of wildness is achieved in a live Anda performance on Aura (Ascona 1965), less perfect than the DG, but riveting. It is also worth listening to the performance by a Clara Schumann pupil, Fanny Davies, on Pearl. I haven't heard the Perahia - his playing tends to make me lose my concentration - too smooth, or what? I know it's my fault. It was like that with his Bach and his Mozart piano concertos, anyway.
The Pollini is lovely, perfect even; but to quote an early poem by John Berryman "The moon at the heart of man is cold".
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: Bulldog on November 02, 2009, 01:59:23 PM
Quote from: ccar on September 16, 2009, 03:02:13 PM
Some madness (specially if combined with talent and taste) may be a fascinating ingredient. But, as you said, a very rare one.

I think that "madness" is an essential ingredient of the work. 
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Mandryka on February 12, 2013, 07:36:31 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on August 28, 2009, 05:51:51 AM
My eight favored versions: Gieseking, Cortot, Backhaus, Schein, Zacharias, Cooper, Kempff and Anda.  I pefer Backhaus most; he's entirely wild and unpredictable.  For the modern route, Ann Schein on Ivory Classics takes my breath away with her transcendent representation of Eusebius.

Are you sure the Backhaus recording on Piano Library is genuine? It seems to have only ever been released on Piano Library as far as I can see, I can't find it on LP. I don't know how reputable Piano Library is.

It doesn't sound like anything else I've heard  from Backhaus, but I'm not a Backhaus expert. far from it.

By the way, whoever's playng it's a remarkable performance.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Sammy on February 12, 2013, 07:57:11 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 12, 2013, 07:36:31 AM
Are you sure the Backhaus recording on Piano Library is genuine? It seems to have only ever been released on Piano Library as far as I can see, I can't find it on LP. I don't know how reputable Piano Library is.

It doesn't sound like anything else I've heard  from Backhaus, but I'm not a Backhaus expert. far from it.

By the way, whoever's playng it's a remarkable performance.

I can't even be sure that you're genuine.  ;D

It is a wonderful performance, but I wouldn't bet my life that it's Backhaus.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Mandryka on February 12, 2013, 08:09:51 AM
Quote from: Sammy on February 12, 2013, 07:57:11 AM
I can't even be sure that you're genuine.  ;D

It is a wonderful performance, but I wouldn't bet my life that it's Backhaus.

But who if not? It is so good, as you say!
Title: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: Leo K. on February 12, 2013, 12:48:17 PM
Uchida is my top recording.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Mandryka on February 12, 2013, 12:53:22 PM
Quote from: Sammy on February 12, 2013, 07:57:11 AM
I can't even be sure that you're genuine.  ;D

It is a wonderful performance, but I wouldn't bet my life that it's Backhaus.

Someone (a serious collector who I trust) has told me that no DBT LP was released by Backhaus.

Someone else suggested that it could be Gieseking, a sound check that he disowned. I just listened quite carefully to both Gieseking and the Piano Library CD and my bet is that it is indeed Gieseking. Some of the feeling of savagery in the performance may come from the sound.
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: Mandryka on February 12, 2013, 09:21:27 PM
Quote from: Agent Leo K. on February 12, 2013, 12:48:17 PM
Uchida is my top recording.

I haven't played the record much but I saw her perform it in London and it was indeed very good.

My own listening to this has focussed recently on a live record by Pollini, from a concert in Salzburg in 1984. And a remarkable performance from Thierry de Brunhoff. The latter defies all expectations, it's very very charming. I can't say why I like it, I shouldn't like it, but it's so charismatic that I love it.

Thierry de Brunhoff gave up pianism to become a monk. A loss to the piano. All his records that I've heard are charismatic and different. They used to be available on an. "Rarissimes" CD box.
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: Octave on February 12, 2013, 09:44:42 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 12, 2013, 09:21:27 PM
My own listening to this has focussed recently on a live record by Pollini, from a concert in Salzburg in 1984.

If this is the one I think it is, it is a storied recording.  I only know it as a release of the Exclusive label from the ~mid-90s; does anyone know if it's been reissued since?  I would like to get a hardcopy of it, but of course I am have no intention of paying $80 for the privilege.

[asin]B00008G29S[/asin]
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: val on February 13, 2013, 01:01:08 AM
After all this years, Geza Anda still remains my favorite. But Karl Engel has here one of his most inspired performances. And there is Gieseking in his version of 1947 with an imagination unique but also a very bad sound.

What a pity Yves Nat didn't record this beautiful work.
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: Mandryka on February 13, 2013, 07:24:34 AM
Quote from: Octave on February 12, 2013, 09:44:42 PM
If this is the one I think it is, it is a storied recording.  I only know it as a release of the Exclusive label from the ~mid-90s; does anyone know if it's been reissued since?  I would like to get a hardcopy of it, but of course I am have no intention of paying $80 for the privilege.

[asin]B00008G29S[/asin]

That's the one.
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: Mandryka on February 13, 2013, 07:25:28 AM
Quote from: val on February 13, 2013, 01:01:08 AM
After all this years, Geza Anda still remains my favorite. But Karl Engel has here one of his most inspired performances. And there is Gieseking in his version of 1947 with an imagination unique but also a very bad sound.

What a pity Yves Nat didn't record this beautiful work.

Are there any other Gieseking recordings?
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: val on February 16, 2013, 12:58:28 AM
QuoteMandryka
Are there any other Gieseking recordings?

I don't know. But that one is the only I know.

I hope that one day Jonathan Biss records this work. With the Fantasiestücke opus 12. It would be a very beautiful CD.
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: Mandryka on February 17, 2013, 09:31:11 AM
Quote from: val on February 16, 2013, 12:58:28 AM
I don't know. But that one is the only I know.

I hope that one day Jonathan Biss records this work. With the Fantasiestücke opus 12. It would be a very beautiful CD.

Your dream has come true

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/510Bs%2BGQbCL._SL500_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51S8Age%2BvtL._AA300_.jpg)

I finally got round to hearing Biss's Kreisleriana. What a distinctive touch this guy has, rich and smooth, like purple satin. He can do dreamy and he can do bouncy - the latter nicely percussive without losing any richness of timbre. And he communicates some pretty disturbing emotions.

Very beautiful, but not too beautiful IMO. Thanks for mentioning Biss, I'm going to listen to some more of his records now, including that DBT.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Mandryka on February 17, 2013, 09:33:43 AM
Quote from: Sammy on February 12, 2013, 07:57:11 AM
I can't even be sure that you're genuine.  ;D

It is a wonderful performance, but I wouldn't bet my life that it's Backhaus.

Someone has "cleaned up" the sound on that Piano Library CD. It sounds much better. Let me know if you want it.

I still think it's Giesekng, but not everyone agrees.
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: Sammy on February 17, 2013, 09:59:13 AM
Quote from: val on February 16, 2013, 12:58:28 AM
I hope that one day Jonathan Biss records this work. With the Fantasiestücke opus 12. It would be a very beautiful CD.

As Mandryka has offered, Biss has recorded the Davidsbundlertanze and done quite well with it.  My only reservations are that he's a little undernourished with the Eusebius sections and in a few interludes where the dialogue between Florestan and Eusebius is not as vivid as I would like.  Overall, good but not outstanding.
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: DavidA on February 20, 2013, 01:28:35 PM
I've a great performance by Geza Anda on Brilliant Classics. It was hailed by the Guardian as one of the best Schumann performances on disc. Wonderful!
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: zamyrabyrd on February 20, 2013, 11:31:11 PM
Quote from: DavidA on February 20, 2013, 01:28:35 PM
I've a great performance by Geza Anda on Brilliant Classics. It was hailed by the Guardian as one of the best Schumann performances on disc. Wonderful!

Geza Anda was a particularly fine pianist, if underrated. His CD however, is first in alphabetical order in the series, Great Pianists of the 20th Century. He plays the 3 Bartok Piano Concertos, Waltzes by Chopin (with surprising insight and depth) and Mozart's Piano Concerto No. 21.

ZB
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: DavidA on February 21, 2013, 02:01:40 PM
Anda Could be wayward in his attempt for originality. Like Beethoven's Diabelli variations. But at his best as in Schumann he is simply marvellous. The Brilliant discs are well worth acquiring. I mean for ten pounds you can hear about four hours of a great pianist! Good value I would say!
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: Mandryka on February 22, 2013, 01:47:30 AM
I don't know the one on Brilliant, But I know Anda on DG and the live one on Aura, from a concert with Chopin op 25 and a Schubert sonata. The live is one of the greats, -- the difference between it and the dead one is all to do with the intangible things that Bulldog keeps banging on about -- the sense of one dance responding to another, the sense of each dance finding its own distinctive face and emotional meaning, the sweep.

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_250/MI0001/022/MI0001022067.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)


Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: Octave on February 22, 2013, 02:53:27 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 28, 2009, 04:42:11 AM
I enjoy Gieseking's recording a lot. In fact, it's probably my favourite Giekeking performance. He never bangs even in the more bouncy pasages, and the lyricism in some of the dances towards the end -- 14 especially -- is beautiful.

I have not consulted a discog, but what is the year and/or release of the Gieseking you mention?  I ask because I have just run across two: 1942 (Piano Library) and 1951 (Classico in Compact).   

Does anyone know if the Anda/Aura mentioned above has been reissued since the edition pictured (~1999)?
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: Mandryka on February 22, 2013, 04:53:27 AM
Quote from: Octave on February 22, 2013, 02:53:27 AM
I have not consulted a discog, but what is the year and/or release of the Gieseking you mention?  I ask because I have just run across two: 1942 (Piano Library) and 1951 (Classico in Compact).   


I've no idea, I strongly suspect that the there's only one Gieseking DBT on record in fact.

I wonder if that so called 1942 piano library one is the same as the DBT the attributed to Backhaus.

Do you have either of them? -- I'd be very keen to hear Classico in Compact if you have -- just to see if it's the same as mine. And I can let you have the Piano Library so called BAckhaus if you're able to compare it to their so-called 1942 Gieseking.



Quote from: Octave on February 22, 2013, 02:53:27 AM
Does anyone know if the Anda/Aura mentioned above has been reissued since the edition pictured (~1999)?

I suspect that it's the same as the one on Brilliant
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: mjwal on February 22, 2013, 08:16:23 AM
The Anda DBT on Brilliant is from DG, like all the others in that set; the live version is only on Aura, it seems to have disappeared from the market. As I said here some time ago (2009), it has that special quality of inspiration.
I think there's only one Gieseking DBT too - I have an LP and 2 CD transfers, all the same performance, though the latest transfer (is it PL? I haven't got it here) is sonically superior.
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 22, 2013, 05:50:49 PM
Quote from: mjwal on February 22, 2013, 08:16:23 AM
The Anda DBT on Brilliant is from DG, like all the others in that set;

Yes, that's correct.

QuoteI think there's only one Gieseking DBT too -

I have a Gieseking DBT from 1947 on Andante. Wouldn't know if there are any others out there, though.


Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: Mandryka on February 22, 2013, 09:54:51 PM
Quote from: mjwal on February 22, 2013, 08:16:23 AM
The Anda DBT on Brilliant is from DG, like all the others in that set; the live version is only on Aura, it seems to have disappeared from the market. As I said here some time ago (2009), it has that special quality of inspiration.

He was clearly pretty variable in this. Tell me, have you explored his many different records of the Symphonic Etudes?
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: mjwal on February 23, 2013, 08:23:25 AM
No, I never much liked that work until I discovered Richter, and I sort of stopped there. I confess that it is still a kind of blind spot for me among Schumann's great works. It does not thrill me to the soul. I prefer the Ghost Variations  ;).
To get back to DBT - does anyone know Berezovsky's recording? I have this - elsewhere - and have no aural memory apart from it being strikingly clear and fast, almost abrasive. When I return to France soon I shall return to it. The reviewer on Amazon.de hates it, Americans on .com seem to love it. It's the original version, also played by Rosen on a late recording, and by Schiff, which latter I do not know. Any comments?
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: Sammy on February 23, 2013, 09:35:24 AM
Quote from: mjwal on February 23, 2013, 08:23:25 AM
To get back to DBT - does anyone know Berezovsky's recording? I have this - elsewhere - and have no aural memory apart from it being strikingly clear and fast, almost abrasive. When I return to France soon I shall return to it. The reviewer on Amazon.de hates it, Americans on .com seem to love it. It's the original version, also played by Rosen on a late recording, and by Schiff, which latter I do not know. Any comments?

I've had the Berezovsky version for quite a few years.  It's a good one; he's particularly compelling in the Eusebius movements.  In Florestan's music, Berezovsky sometimes is a little low on tension and bite.  So, not among the best, but definitely in the upper half.  When I'm listening to his 11th Movement, I'm in heaven.
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: Mandryka on February 24, 2013, 04:21:36 AM
Here's Kempff playing in in Besancon in the 1960s -- it's in four parts on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/v/q9q45cWPBXU

I don't know what to make of it, I know I find it a bit intriguing, I've felt the urge to listen a few times. It brought to mind this equally intriguing comment by Boom, though probably for no good reason.

Quote from: boom on his blog at http://boomboomsky.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Brown%20MichaelWhy is it that, when it comes to Schumann's music, musicians are expected to act as Schumann's self-appointed psychiatrists, and to treat performances of his music as exercises in post-mortem psychiatric profiling?  Schumann's mental life wasn't pretty, true.  But then neither were those of good many other important composers:  rabid antisemites (Wagner), pedophiles (Saint-Saens), anguished closeted homosexuals (Tchaikovsky), Nazi sympathizers (Webern), Communist sympathizers (Shostakovich), or just plain mean and vindictive bastards (Britten).
       Why is it, then, that Marin Alsop does not hear Saint-Saens' "Egyptian" concerto "pulsing" with lust for pre-pubescent boys?  Why doesn't David Dubal insist that interpreters must possess "a special empathy" for Tchaikovsky "the man and troubled creator"?  (And troubled Tchaikovsky was, if anyone can be meaningfully called 'troubled'!)
       Why does it seem informative for Dubal to refer to Schumann's "highly personal and psychological formal shapes", as if the formal shapes in the music of Bach or Mahler are impersonal and carry no psychological imprint of the minds that created them?  (Surely Bach and Mahler were not composing with their kneecaps or livers.)
       And, most importantly, why is it that those who insist on placing Schumann's music on the psychiatrist's couch never bother to ask themselves such basic questions as:  What exactly is the perceptual difference between a sforzando marked by composers with bipolar disorder, and one marked by composers with 'healthy' minds? (Since the answer is clearly "None", such questions would be rather uncomfortable for those who indulge in the above kind of psycho-blabbering.)

I hold this wide-spread pseudo-musicological idiocy responsible for frequent maiming of Schumann's music on record and in the concert hall.  Fortunately, the young generation of pianists does not seem to see anything important (musically or otherwise) in Schumann's psychological condition.  Or so I think based on what I hear in their playing, which focuses my attention on the natural beauty of Schumann's harmonic and melodic imagination, while avoiding the hysterical dynamical and rhythmic excesses of Schumann performances from decades past.  (It also occurred to me that for young people, who grew up in the world where Prozac and Ritalin supplement Gerber Baby Food, a psychological case like Schumann's may be utterly ordinary.)

Fanny Davies is on youtube playing it too, as is Dino Ciani,  but I haven't had the time to listen yet.

A couple of other things. I listened to Biss and I agree with Bulldog.  Shame that, because I agree with Val about his Kreisleriana. I listened to a live one from Berezowsky from Verbier on youtube and I thought it was OK. and I've been really enjoying Hewitt on this CD

(http://images.cdquest.com/images/album_art/sized/200/0034571177809.jpg)

In Hewitt the quiet music is so posed, poised. and the bouncy music is so bouncy. It made me imagine that sort of rock 'n' roll dancing where the man hardly moves at all -- too cool to move much -- and the woman gyrates around him
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: mjwal on February 24, 2013, 06:23:10 AM
Anent Boom's critical question ("Why is it that, when it comes to Schumann's music, musicians are expected to act as Schumann's self-appointed psychiatrists, and to treat performances of his music as exercises in post-mortem psychiatric profiling?") - here is a passage by Schumann himself on the subject of a work being given two-fold consideration elsewhere on GMG (I wonder if you can guess which):
Was überhaupt die schwierige Frage, wie weit die Instrumentalmusik in Darstellung von Gedanken und Begebenheiten gehen dürfe, anlangt, so sehen hier Viele zu ängstlich. Man irrt sich gewiß, wenn man glaubt, die Componisten legten sich Feder und Papier in der elenden Absicht zurecht, dies oder jenes auszudrücken, zu schildern, zu malen. Doch schlage man zufällige Einflüsse und Eindrücke von Außen nicht zu gering an. Unbewußt neben der musikalischen Phantasie wirkt oft eine Idee fort, neben dem Ohre das Auge und dieses, das immer thätige Organ, hält dann mitten unter den Klängen und Tönen gewisse Umrisse fest, die sich mit der vorrückenden Musik zu deutlichen Gestalten verdichten und ausbilden können.
"Concerning the difficult question of how far instrumental music should go in representing thoughts and events, many are too fearful on this point. It is certainly an error to believe that composers take to pen and paper with the miserable intention of expressing, portraying or painting this or that.  Yet one should not underestimate chance influences and impressions from the outside world. Unconsciously an idea is often continuing to produce its effects parallel to the musical phantasy, beside the ear the eye, which latter ever-active organ then fixes upon certain contours among the sounds and tones, contours which as the music proceeds can condense themselves and develop into distinct shapes." (My translation)
We see that Schumann was here open to the idea of unconscious activity, though he thought of it (in this case) as being stimulated by the outside world in particular. His argument does allow us, I believe, to assume that unconscious feelings and tendencies might be channelled in and through the musical work, but not in a simplistic model of cause and effect (of course he was acquainted with the older conception of Affekt found in Baroque music). But I think it is  clear that he would have no truck with the idea that executants should be explicitly concerned with this in their interpretations or even assume that they might draw conclusions about the psychosomatic state of the composer. The whole piece is fascinating, and those in the threads I have alluded to might profitably peruse it.
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: Mandryka on February 24, 2013, 09:50:10 PM
Quote from: mjwal on February 24, 2013, 06:23:10 AM
Anent Boom's critical question ("Why is it that, when it comes to Schumann's music, musicians are expected to act as Schumann's self-appointed psychiatrists, and to treat performances of his music as exercises in post-mortem psychiatric profiling?") - here is a passage by Schumann himself on the subject of a work being given two-fold consideration elsewhere on GMG (I wonder if you can guess which):
Was überhaupt die schwierige Frage, wie weit die Instrumentalmusik in Darstellung von Gedanken und Begebenheiten gehen dürfe, anlangt, so sehen hier Viele zu ängstlich. Man irrt sich gewiß, wenn man glaubt, die Componisten legten sich Feder und Papier in der elenden Absicht zurecht, dies oder jenes auszudrücken, zu schildern, zu malen. Doch schlage man zufällige Einflüsse und Eindrücke von Außen nicht zu gering an. Unbewußt neben der musikalischen Phantasie wirkt oft eine Idee fort, neben dem Ohre das Auge und dieses, das immer thätige Organ, hält dann mitten unter den Klängen und Tönen gewisse Umrisse fest, die sich mit der vorrückenden Musik zu deutlichen Gestalten verdichten und ausbilden können.
"Concerning the difficult question of how far instrumental music should go in representing thoughts and events, many are too fearful on this point. It is certainly an error to believe that composers take to pen and paper with the miserable intention of expressing, portraying or painting this or that.  Yet one should not underestimate chance influences and impressions from the outside world. Unconsciously an idea is often continuing to produce its effects parallel to the musical phantasy, beside the ear the eye, which latter ever-active organ then fixes upon certain contours among the sounds and tones, contours which as the music proceeds can condense themselves and develop into distinct shapes." (My translation)
We see that Schumann was here open to the idea of unconscious activity, though he thought of it (in this case) as being stimulated by the outside world in particular. His argument does allow us, I believe, to assume that unconscious feelings and tendencies might be channelled in and through the musical work, but not in a simplistic model of cause and effect (of course he was acquainted with the older conception of Affekt found in Baroque music). But I think it is  clear that he would have no truck with the idea that executants should be explicitly concerned with this in their interpretations or even assume that they might draw conclusions about the psychosomatic state of the composer. The whole piece is fascinating, and those in the threads I have alluded to might profitably peruse it.

Thanks for making that translation. Where's it from, a letter?

Tell me, is it certain that Schumann knew about Affekt?

I'm convinced that that live Kempff DBT from Besançon is one of the very greatest.
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: mjwal on February 27, 2013, 08:16:58 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 24, 2013, 09:50:10 PM
Thanks for making that translation. Where's it from, a letter?

Tell me, is it certain that Schumann knew about Affekt?

I'm convinced that that live Kempff DBT from Besançon is one of the very greatest.
I'd love to hear that live Kempff; I very much like his terribly contrapuntal-sounding DG recording. - As to your first question: I found it in a collection of Schumann's musical writings by the great German critic, Paul Bekker (probably the first to write a book on Mahler's symphonies). As to your second: I haven't a handy Schumann quote to offer, but no less an authority than Andreas Staier writes in an interview: "Bach war für Schumann stets so etwas wie ein Kompositionslehrer. Immer wieder hat er die Fugen aus dem 'Wohltemperierten Klavier' analysiert und studiert. Wenn Schumann schreibt: ,Fugen sind Charakterstücke höchster Art', dann drückt er sehr treffend aus, dass es ihm darum geht, ein Stück zu schreiben, das sich selbst rechtfertigt und aus sich heraus eine Grundstimmung entwickelt. Es geht ihm nicht nur um Polyphonie, sondern auch um die Prägnanz der Affekt-Darstellung." (my trans.) "Bach was for Schumann always something like a teacher of composition. Again and again he analysed and studied the fugues from the 'Welltempered Piano'. When Schumann writes: 'Fugues are character pieces of the highest kind', he expresses very aptly that he is keen to write a piece that is self-justified and develops a basic mood out of itself. He was not only concerned with polyphony, but also with the pregnant representation of affect." - http://www.klavier.de/magazin/interview.cfm?KID=5061
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: Mandryka on February 27, 2013, 09:39:56 AM
I don't know whether romantic composers' ideas about emotional expression were drawn from baroque aesthetics. Would Schumann have changed or added to this idea?

Quote from: Mattheson's Neu-Eröffnete Orchester, 1713



There the composer has the grand opportunity to give free rein to his invention. With many surprises and with as much grace he there can, most naturally and diversely, portray love, jealousy, hatred, gentleness, impatience, lust, indifference, fear, vengeance, fortitude, timidity, magnanimity, horror, dignity, baseness, splendour, indigence, pride, humility, joy, laughter, weeping, mirth, pain, happiness, despair, storm, tranquillity, even heaven and earth, sea and hell, together with all the actions in which men participate.....Through the skill of composer and singer each and every Affectus can be expressed beautifully and naturally better than in an Oratorio, better than in painting or sculpture, for not only are Operas expressed in words, but they are helped along by appropriate actions and above all interpreted by heart-moving music.
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: mjwal on March 02, 2013, 02:29:15 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 27, 2013, 09:39:56 AM
I don't know whether romantic composers' ideas about emotional expression were drawn from baroque aesthetics. Would Schumann have changed or added to this idea?
I don't know either, but I would in general doubt it: Schubert, Berlioz or Chopin do not seem to have followed that path. But the case of Schumann, as I indicated, seems to be rather different.  "Drawn" seems too overt, but some form of transmission in Schumann's case is clear IMO. It didn't stop him composing pieces with more than one affective node, but works such as the D-minor violin concerto have an openly baroque gestus and unitary mood, and songs like "Ich hab im Traum geweinet" seem to me to resemble some baroque arioso recitative. Of course he added to the idea- what he created was more a kind of synthesis of the past and present. It's what we're all doing, right? Freud uses the term "Affekt" for feelings that characterise our behaviour - the term (with its historical baggage) is not something split off from us by a historical category like "Baroque".
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: BobsterLobster on March 10, 2013, 03:57:24 PM
My old piano teacher's (Benjamin Frith) recording of this piece was very well respected as far as I know-
listen on Spotify:
http://open.spotify.com/album/5CPbk6rJD3N1ALTNdKxInW (http://open.spotify.com/album/5CPbk6rJD3N1ALTNdKxInW)
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: Herman on March 11, 2013, 12:58:34 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 22, 2013, 01:47:30 AM
I don't know the one on Brilliant, But I know Anda on DG and the live one on Aura, from a concert with Chopin op 25 and a Schubert sonata. The live is one of the greats, -- the difference between it and the dead one is all to do with the intangible things that Bulldog keeps banging on about -- the sense of one dance responding to another, the sense of each dance finding its own distinctive face and emotional meaning, the sweep.

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_250/MI0001/022/MI0001022067.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

It's been released on Ermitage, too, which seems to be the place where all these Italian radio recordings wind up.
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: Mandryka on April 04, 2013, 06:44:34 AM
Quote from: mjwal on March 02, 2013, 02:29:15 AM
I don't know either, but I would in general doubt it: Schubert, Berlioz or Chopin do not seem to have followed that path. But the case of Schumann, as I indicated, seems to be rather different.  "Drawn" seems too overt, but some form of transmission in Schumann's case is clear IMO. It didn't stop him composing pieces with more than one affective node, but works such as the D-minor violin concerto have an openly baroque gestus and unitary mood, and songs like "Ich hab im Traum geweinet" seem to me to resemble some baroque arioso recitative. Of course he added to the idea- what he created was more a kind of synthesis of the past and present. It's what we're all doing, right? Freud uses the term "Affekt" for feelings that characterise our behaviour - the term (with its historical baggage) is not something split off from us by a historical category like "Baroque".

Interesting article on the Schumann/Bach relationship here:

http://www.schillerinstitute.org/music/2010/schumann.pdf

though it doesn't seem to cover aesthetics. I've been listening to recordings of Richter playing the op 72  fugues.
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: Octave on April 04, 2013, 07:02:27 AM
Aha!  I believe I found a cheapo reissue of the Anda/Aura, with a bunch of other non-Anda stuff; another dodge-a-licious Documents/Membran/Aura [do the former own the latter?] box.  Let me quote from this thread:

Quote from: Mandryka on February 22, 2013, 01:47:30 AM
I don't know the one on Brilliant, But I know Anda on DG and the live one on Aura, from a concert with Chopin op 25 and a Schubert sonata. The live is one of the greats, -- the difference between it and the dead one is all to do with the intangible things that Bulldog keeps banging on about -- the sense of one dance responding to another, the sense of each dance finding its own distinctive face and emotional meaning, the sweep.

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_250/MI0001/022/MI0001022067.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Quote from: Herman on March 11, 2013, 12:58:34 PM
It's been released on Ermitage, too, which seems to be the place where all these Italian radio recordings wind up.

This looks like it might be the one; the back cover at Amazon is totally illegible on the computer I am using.  For the moment I rely entirely on a couple Amazon customer reviews; I'll reproduce all the contents from one of those reviews, below.  Is it the same date/recording as the one mentioned by Mandryka et al?  Does anyone know any of the rest of these performances, and are they worth having as well?  Now I wonder if Membran has a different box, devoted to Anda, with this performance and other items of interest....

[asin]B000TIY3XI[/asin]
GREAT PIANISTS (Documents/Membran/Aura, 10cd, 2007)

QuoteCD1: Friedrich Gulda - Lugano, 19.1.1968
Haydn - Andante con variazioni
Mozart - Piano Sonata No. 8
Schubert - Impromptus Op. 90
Beethoven - Piano Sonata No. 21

CD2: Wilhelm Backhaus - Lugano, 18.5.1960, 11.6.1953
Haydn - Piano Sonata Hob XVI-52, Andante con variazioni, Fantasia
Beethoven - Piano Sonata No. 17
Chopin - Studies Op. 25 (excerpts), Nocturne Op. 27/2, Waltz Op. 18

CD3: Rudolf Serkin - Lugano, 22.5.1957
Schubert - Impromptu Op. 142/4
Bach - Capriccio
Beethoven - Piano Sonata No. 23
Brahms - Variations on Theme of Handel
Mendelssohn - Rondo capriccioso

CD4: Shura Cherkassky - Lugano, 5.12.1963
Mendelssohn - Rondo capriccioso
Schumann - Piano Sonata No. 1
Berg - Piano Sonata No. 1
Debussy - L'Isle joyeuse
Stravinsky - Trois mouvements de Petrouchka
Poulenc - Toccata

CD5: Lazar Berman - Lugano, 28.11.1989
Scriabin - Fantasia in B minor
Liszt - 5 Schubert Transcriptions, Funerailles
Rachmaninov - Six Moments Musicaux

CD6: Emil Gilels - Lugano, 25.09.1984
Scarlatti - Sonatas
Debussy - Pour le piano
Schumann - Etudes Symphoniques

CD7: Geza Anda - Ascona, 16.09.1965
Chopin - 12 Etudes Op.25
Schumann - Die Davidsbundlertanze
Schubert - Piano Sonata No. 13

CD8: Witold Malcuzynski - Locarno, 13.03.1963
Brahms - Intermezzo Op. 118/6, Rhapsody Op. 79/2
Beethoven - Piano Sonata No. 23
Chopin - Nocturne No. 13, Ballade No. 3, Mazurkas Nos. 15, 17, 45, Scherzo No. 3, Valze Op. 70/1, Etude Op. 10/12

CD9: Georges Cziffra - Ascone, 27.09.1963
Chopin - Fantasie Op. 49, Scherzo No. 2, Piano Sonata No. 2
Liszt - Rhapsodie espagnole, Liebestraum No. 2, Polonaise No. 2, Grand Galop Chromatique, Hungarian Rhapsody No. 6

CD10: Bruno Canino - Lugano, 17.01.1993
Bach - Goldberg Variations
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: mjwal on April 06, 2013, 01:42:56 AM
I'm quite sure that's the same recording, Octave; Membran (which has as many names as the Hydra had heads) has obviously incorporated Aura/Ermitage, as it has other catalogues. I have a couple of the discs listed by you on either Aura or Ermitage, which were originally, if I am not mistaken, produced from mainly Swiss-Italian radio tapes for cheap music magazines offered on a regular basis at Italian kiosks. I remember buying a mag about Stravinsky in Florence years and years ago and getting some delightful performances of works like the Octet conducted by Stravinsky himself at Lugano. In a way I could curse you ;D for bringing this up, because getting this would mean some duplications and creating more problems of space, both in the external world and in my head.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Mandryka on March 20, 2018, 11:55:24 AM
Christian Zacharias's comments on DBT

QuoteTo all those who attentively follow along in the score I would like to say: Not only do I play all the repetitions, but I also play a few more too —which is quite uncommon in this day and age, when even required repeats are generally omitted. In my defense, I might add that even Schumann sometimes didn't seem to know exactly what and how often he wanted something repeated. You can see this very clearly in the two editions of the DavidsbOndlertanze which he supervised. It is striking that he tends to call for more repetitions in the later edition. Also, I would say that the pieces, which take on a new formal guise through the additional repeats, seem to agree better with my feeling for proportions. Besides — let us leave it up to the conductors of this imaginary ball to repeat whatever sections, fanfares and dances they want. The guests are grateful; it makes them dance that much longer into the tipsy morning. The clock strikes six, the last guests leave, some of the waltz rhythms —though robbed now of their pulse — still scurrying in their heads. Their distant echo is a harp-like dominant seventh chord in which the notes are no longer struck, but audibly released until only the soft "A" is heard. And then it's over.

And what is there to say about the main piece on this CD, Opus 6? Perhaps simply that we are witnessing Robert Schumann the patient lying on the couch of Robert Schumann the psychiatrist. What the patient tells his analyst is recorded not in a medical report, but in the Davidsbandlertanze. Anonymously, or, more precisely, pseudonymously, since the patient has two souls in one breast: Florestan and Eusebius. But listen to them yourself... CHRISTIAN ZACHARIAS, 1978 Translation: Roger Clement
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Mandryka on March 04, 2019, 04:06:49 AM
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/w8Y7_L6TSBgsO-7G2bJC1lgdJtSaMVFp1Rvv5Ov7qCs3ftDypv_gvkDHKQc5Ra7_lz9LKGz8i2Gw-YyrzcdMg5WxxOqDT7foLdjtRzi3THsSJjP7swI27thMmNZJk0woCe59-28y2ojiOL1djlRONV_Wq2fJ9d47NVFg36570opTUV7FjUjYYOT6BqAkWr4mIugDAUHJr03uzsc_JeOXQyQC3CgLgPdaP8rf=w5000-h5000)

This is fabulous, I mean it reminds me of how wonderful music can be on modern a piano, something I was forgetting.  He's totally "in the moment".

It dates from 1991, which was a time when I saw him play a lot and I thought he was a really great pianist in the making, something which I stopped thinking around 2005. Listening to the DBT I suddenly remembered what all the fuss was about.

I shall have to revisit his first Ravel cycle soon.

Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: amw on March 04, 2019, 11:43:03 PM
I notice some discussion from 6 years ago about Jonathan Biss's DBT—his studio recording is now complemented by a live one from Wigmore Hall in 2014. Has anyone compared the two?
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Mandryka on March 05, 2019, 01:21:44 AM
The Wigmore one is on spotify, I'm just not in the mood myself.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: amw on March 05, 2019, 01:34:37 AM
Cool, I found the EMI one on Qobuz so I'll probably get around to it myself eventually....

I've been mostly listening to this one lately
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61vxSI6V92L._SL1200_.jpg)
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Mandryka on March 05, 2019, 02:26:26 AM
Quote from: amw on March 05, 2019, 01:34:37 AM
Cool, I found the EMI one on Qobuz so I'll probably get around to it myself eventually....

I've been mostly listening to this one lately
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61vxSI6V92L._SL1200_.jpg)

I'd be interested to know what you make of it. Clearly it's spiced up by the piano. But once you get beyond that, is it too restrained, too serious? I don't know, I can't separate my own mood when I listened from what's actually going on in the performance.

I don't have access to the booklet to see if she has anything interesting to say, the title of the CD makes me think she may have.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: amw on March 05, 2019, 08:00:58 PM
I mean it's definitely not the way I would play it, but it's also an interpretation pretty much entirely created around the piano and therefore raises questions—is this kind of restraint and moderate tempi more historically accurate, truer to life? the instrument & the tempi give all the music a much more pronounced dance character; how much should this character actually be emphasised? (After all Schumann did remove the "dances" label from the second edition, instead calling it a set of "character pieces".) Etc.

I don't know if I like it but I definitely prefer the instrument to a modern piano for this repertoire. Also would have liked to hear Peter Katin or Alexei Lubimov try it.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Mandryka on March 05, 2019, 08:55:22 PM
Annette Seiler plays the Fantasiestucke in a similarly classical way. It just seems such a paradox that she should have this approach to expression and call her CD Psychogramme!

By the way, I've been enjoying Demus's fortepiano recordings. Not DBT, but the fantasie, symphonic études and Humoreske.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: amw on March 06, 2019, 01:35:06 AM
I've always liked the Demus fortepiano recordings yes. Surprising how few others there are who have attempted Schumann piano music on historic instruments—one album apiece by Piet Kuijken, Jan Vermeulen, Penelope Crawford and Paolo Giacometti, as far as I know; and probably others that aren't currently available commercially.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Mandryka on March 06, 2019, 04:23:07 AM
There's also this, which I haven't heard but I've just ordered (you can find them at reasonable prices if you hunt on amazon, or rather, you could until I came along.)

(http://www.resmusica.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Schumann_Bouyer-400x371-362x335.jpg)

https://soundcloud.com/pierrebouyer/sets/schumann-sur-3-pianoforte-etudes-symphoniques

http://www.resmusica.com/2013/12/18/approche-originale-du-pianoforte-via-robert-schumann/

http://www.diligencemusica.com/catalogue/albums-coffrets/schumann-sur-trois-pianoforte-phantasie-opus-17-kreisleriana-opus-16/
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Mandryka on March 12, 2019, 06:12:50 AM
Two recordings by Fabienne Jacquinot 30 years apart, the former never off LP,  in my opinion she's one of the great Schumann interpreters, in this and in the Symphonic Etudes, delicate, sensual, and later on in the BNL recordings at least, strong, powerful,  the comment on youtube sums up my feeling entirely. I prefer the Arrauvian BNL recordings.

QuoteInterprétation bouleversante de délicatesse, de résonances poétiques au delà du silence. Tout les mystères du monde de Schumann intériorisés et révélés par cette grande artiste hélas trop méconnue.

https://www.youtube.com/v/Usip9JkZTfc  https://www.youtube.com/v/KoPP7h6pQnE

Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Mandryka on March 17, 2019, 11:11:30 AM
This one is well worth catching I think

(https://resources.wimpmusic.com/images/267e4e93/1ec2/4220/9939/00365ac38001/640x640.jpg)

He says something interesting about how he plays Kinderszenen

Quote"No. In fact, I've gone for the dark
side, stressing the arrhythmic aspects,
the sforzatos, the harshness and
lack of serenity.

I think the same is true of the DBT performance. About Davidsbundlertanze he says something incomprehensible about angels, the sort of thing which makes me wince

QuoteWhat
emerges from these eighteen pieces,
some of them exceptionally brief and
experimental, is the composer's desire
to be a winner, to be recognised as
an innovator. The final waltz reveals
a desire for transcendence: the image
of humans who aspire to become
angel

Live event, Fazioli, nice Fazioli, I'm learining to like them, well recorded, very well recorded.

Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: betterthanfine on March 22, 2019, 03:38:25 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 04, 2019, 04:06:49 AMI thought he was a really great pianist in the making, something which I stopped thinking around 2005.

Why? I have yet to hear a disappointing recording by him. I'll be sure to look out for this Mozart, it's not on Spotify unfortunately.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Mandryka on March 22, 2019, 08:52:41 PM
Quote from: betterthanfine on March 22, 2019, 03:38:25 PM
Why? I have yet to hear a disappointing recording by him. I'll be sure to look out for this Mozart, it's not on Spotify unfortunately.

Because of a couple of concert experiences which were a bit routine, that's all. The problem could well have been my mood, impossible to say.

Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Herman on March 24, 2019, 01:15:57 AM
I have always been puzzled by the Schumann Was a Nutcase view.

Here is one of the most prolific composers in history who also managed to edit a music magazine and lead an orchestra.

In addition to this he had a large family.

I would have gone stark raving mad with all those responsibilities, but he kept on, until the sound in his head drove him crazy.

Mad men (or women  -  which were more common in that era) usually are largely unproductive members of society.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Mandryka on April 02, 2019, 05:31:19 AM
Worthwhile essay I thought here

QuoteRobert Schumann's Secret by Jan Reichow


It is not by chance that this selection of short and longer piano works ends with a strange piece whose paradigmatic character can be easily misunderstood. "The Bird as Prophet", from Forest Scenes op. 82, sounds as if, like "Caliph Stork", it is connected with a fairy-tale; but this is no "scene from childhood" - "almost too serious" - it is serious and feather-light at the same time: a meditation about nature.

As Theodor Adorno once wrote, "The beauty of nature is myth transposed into the imagination and perhaps compensated by it. We all find birdsong beautiful; no sensitive person in whom something of the European tradition survives can hear the song of the blackbird after rain and remain unmoved. Yet there is something terrifying about birdsong, because the bird is not really singing at all but obeying a spell to which it is in thrall. This terror also appears when birds are about to migrate, which, according to the fortune-tell-ers of old, presages disaster."'

One may well wonder what bird Schumann had in mind. I used to think it must be the blackbird, but its voice is much more powerful and less repetitive. It must be the sprightly robin, to which folk wisdom also assigns magical powers: if anyone disturbs its nest, "the cows' milk will turn red ... or the weather will penetrate the house".


"The Bird as Prophet" has a central sec-tion. "The start of the melody, with its full chords, suddenly breaks the spell and seems like a sigh of relief," writes Jurgen Uhde in his great work Denken and Spielen ("Thought and Play"); he hears in it "the intensity of the vox humana".

"At the beginning it is as if an answer comes, understanding, indeed agreeing, but then in the abrupt E flat major of bar 24 1...] the questioning gesture overpowers the answering one. Thus a fragment of subjective expression makes itself heard here, only to disappear again helplessly into the sounds of nature, still as unchangingly mysterious as ever"' Understood in this way, as a conversa-tion between man and nature, this "forest scene" gains the deeper perspective which characterises almost all Schumann's music even though he sometimes sidesteps it in his titles, as if he knew Brecht's dismissive saying "Don't gape in such a romantic way!"

The aesthetic theory of humour put forward by the writer Jean Paul does not explain the fact that Schumann chose the name "Humor-esque" for a piece that he perceived as far from humorous, indeed possiblyas his most melancholy of all, or that a piece concerned with rapt and intimate longings is named "Of foreign lands and peoples". The bird, however, is to be taken seriously, even if not literally. As JUrgen Uhde says, "If this bird is a prophet, it speaks the truth, but the truth is an enigma. Its voice occupies a strange middle ground
between dance and speech; the melody itself remains alien because of its dissonant, extended suspensions, heralding remote tonalities, so that its voice has a detached, unsettling tone." 4

The same is true of the key scene, "Ver-rufene Stelle" ("Haunted spot", CD Tr.M).


The flowers, high though they grow,
Are as pale here as death;
Just one, in the middle,
Stands out in dark red.
It does not have this from the sun:
Never has it encountered its glow;
It has it from the earth Which has drunk human blood. (Friedrich Hebbel)


The piano creates a tone never heard before in the history of music; words like "French overture", "Dead march" or "Bach Prelude in E flat minor" seem inappropriate, and even Hebbel's cryptic lines can serve only as a vague pointer to show how dark intimations of beauty, guilt and death can be captured in music in an incredibly finely crafted manner that reminds one of Webern.

It remains remarkable that Schumann, who never penned the short titles of his pieces without some reservations and always invented them retrospectively, as he empha-sized - that he was here prefacing the piece with an entire poem (or, as the case may be, did not eliminate that possibility, as with five
other pieces in the collection). Clearly he was concerned with suggesting a subtext for his music while at the same time the final words of the poem, "human blood", are completely dissolved, flowing away into the most delicate of musical structures.

Roland Barthes, in his somewhat extrava-gant essay on Kreisleriana, makes a stimulating observation: "'Soul', 'feeling' and 'heart' are all romantic names for the body. In the roman-tic text all becomes clearer if one translates the fluid moral concept by a physical, instinctive word - and nothing gets lost in this process: romantic music is saved as soon as the body returns to it or, more precisely, as soon as the body returns to it through music."'

This can be taken as encouragement to come closer to Schumann by a direct approach, without Jean Paul and the early romantic texts which, though they do address modern anxieties, are, in their fantastic floweriness, so much farther removed from modern under-standing than "physical" music.

The set of Forest Scenes which contains both these pieces is "late Schumann". It was completed in 1850, whereas the Scenes from Childhood and Kreisleriana were written in 1837/38, at a time when he was emerging from his earlier, weaker phase. Weaker? In such imaginatively inventive masterpieces as the Abegg Theme and Variations, Papillons or Carnaval?

In February 1838 he looked back on these works: "I am writing much more lightly and

clearly and, I think, more agreeably. I used to link everything together, one after the other, and the result was often strange and seldom beautiful; yet in the case of artists, even their mistakes belong to the world, so long as they are not positively ugly. For the last four weeks I have done virtually nothing but compose, as I wrote to you; it was pouring into me and I was constantly singing along with it - and usually it came out well. I am playing around with dif-ferent forms. Altogether I have felt, over the last year and a half, as if I were in possession of a secret. That sounds strange."

He was indeed singing along with it, and the singing helped him. Two years later, when his "year of lieder" had begun, he was to write, "I can scarcely tell you what a pleasure it is to write for the voice in comparison with writing for instruments, or describe the inner thrill and tumult that I feel while I'm sitting there work-ing. Something quite new happens to me." (19 February 1840 in a letter to Keferstein).6

At an earlier stage Schumann had composed at the piano, ever on the lookout for unmis-takably personal ideas and pioneering tonal relationships. Even in the Abegg Variations, which do follow a plan in the broadest sense (i.e. their theme), not a bar is predictable. The drawback of this manner of composing, a process with ready-finished, unmistakable little "modules", lies in the necessity to put the separate parts together "from outside", as it were ("previously I used to link everything together"), and in the lack of an overarching
concept, a plan for harmonic modulations or a clear idea of form.

On the subject of Schumann's method of composing Bernhard R. Appel observes: "Composition unburdened by technical skills and driven solely by a subjective and spontaneous desire for self-expression and genuine authenticity, forced Schumann into constant introspection. Weighing up aesthetic aims against compositional solutions in this critical dialogue with himself, the autodidact invents compositional techniques that are like new. But the price is high and paid in fragments."'

Schumann overcame this problem in 1838/ 39, but of all the masterpieces for piano pub-lished from then on, he liked his Kreisleriana best. This was perhaps because Kreisler, the old visionary (Schumann described him as "a figure created by E.T.A. Hoffmann, an eccen-tric, wild, brilliant Kapellmeister"), was able to affirm his existence in spite of everything, and it was only now that all his fragmentary thoughts came together in a higher degree of organisation. Almost all this work is in G minor or B flat major, and the musical analyst will everywhere detect a programmatical pro-gression of thirds, upwards and downwards, sometimes deeply thoughtful as in the sixth piece, sometimes stormy as in the seventh, and capable of transformation like the main theme of the later Piano Concerto, which originally occurred in Clara Wieck's Notturno op. 6/2. Indeed Schumann wrote to his fiancée, "I'm

going to call it Kreisleriana, and you and one of your inspired ideas will play the leading role in it." He goes on to say, "A true and truly wild love is present in some of the movements, as are your life and mine and many of your special gazes. The 'Scenes from Childhood' are just the opposite, gentle and tender and happy like our future."8 Schumann therefore saw the Scenes from Childhood as complementary to Kreisleriana. Obviously he wished his beloved Clara to see the full range of his personality with all its contradictions. Her reactions were appropriately complementary. Of Kreisleriana she wrote, "I am amazed at your inspiration and all the newness in it - do you know, I am sometimes almost afraid of you and ask myself: is it true that this man really going to be my husband ?" Of the Scenes from Child-hood she writes, "Whom have you dedicated the 'Scenes from Childhood' to ? Isn't it true that they only belong to the two of us? They remain constantly in my head - they're so simple, so intimate, so entirely 'you'."

Clara's perception was spot on. These are not scenes for children, and perhaps have nothing to do with children at all. The young poet Walt Harnisch, in Jean Paul's Flegeljahren ("Years of indiscretion"), seemed to Schumann the "perfect depiction of an adult who remains a child", writes Arnfried Edler, and he goes on refer to Novalis and again to Hoffmann: "The idea that the true poet is filled with a childlike spirit is a constant theme in Novalis's work and in the fairytales written by other writers of the
German romantic school. Almost all the motifs of the 'Scenes from Childhood' are to be found in, for instance, Hoffmann's 'Nutcracker' and 'Mouse King'." 11

Many years later Schumann wrote to Carl Reinecke that the Scenes from Childhood were "retrospects of an older person, meant for older people". As in the case of other works by Schumann, this opinion may have been influenced by the public debate about him. Edler tells us that the original idea for the work had been "the Utopia of an exist-ence in poetic love".12"Nearly thirty odd little things", as Schumann called them, had been composed, of which thirteen were selected to form the Scenes from Childhood, published as op. 15. A few of the remainder appeared in Bunte Blatter ("Colourful leaves") op. 99 (this collection also contains some "Album Leaves" and other short pieces) and in Album Leaves op. 124. The first of the "Three little pieces" (Tr from Bunte Blatter was originally called "Wish". Schumann sent it from Vienna to Clara Wieck in Paris on 18 December 1838, with a note saying, "God bless you, dearest girl. You have created spring around me and golden flowers peep forth - in other words I compose after receiving your letters, and can never tire of music.Herewith I send you my little Christmas gift.You will know what it is I wish for." 13

So here too there is a secret. And what about the other secret? While it was still closed to him and he could not yet think of a solution to the Clara secret, he wrote, with no specific intention, a magical, very singable song melody (Tr H). It begins with the first notes of "Sphinx" from Carnaval, A flat-C-B. It therefore perhaps arose in the context of the latter work during the winter of 1834/35, which means that it was not written, as the printed first edition states, in 1836, when Friedrich Wieck forbade all contact with his daughter Clara.

Is it the melody or the interpretation? Is it the song of an inner voice? How wonderful it is when the pianist performing it does not interpret the word "gesangvoll" (cantabile) to 6 mean "espressivo". In its sphinx-like tones the "Haunted spot" is never far away, nor is the bleeding heart of a human being or indeed Salome's ruthlessly beautiful words, "And the secret of love is greater than the secret of death"
Notes
1 2 3
4 5
6
7 8 9

Theodor W. Adorno: Aesthetische Theorie (Frankfurt/Main, 1970), p.105. Claus-Peter Lieckfeld / Veronika Straass: Mythos Vogel (Munich, 2002), p.184. Jurgen Uhde and Renate Wieland: Denken and Spielen: Studien zu einer Theorie der musikalischen Darstellung (Kassel, Basel, London, New York, 1988), p.418 Uhde, ibid. Roland Barthes: "Ranch" in: Was singt mir, der ich hore, in meinem Korper das Lied (Berlin, 1979), p.601. Bernhard R. Appel: "Poesie and Handwerk: Robert Schumanns Schaffensweise" in Schumann Handbuch, ed. Ulrich Tadday (Stuttgart, 2006), p.155. Appel, op. cit. p.153. Arnfried Edler: "Werke far Klavier zu zwei Handen bis 1840" in: Schumann Handbuch, p.249 Edler, ibid.
10 Edler, op. cit., p.246 11 Edler, ibid. 12 Edler, op. cit., p.247 13 Joachim Draheim: "Werke fOr Klavier zu zwei H8nden nach 1840" in: Schumann Handbuch, p.274.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Verena on April 07, 2019, 03:55:40 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 17, 2019, 11:11:30 AM
This one is well worth catching I think

(https://resources.wimpmusic.com/images/267e4e93/1ec2/4220/9939/00365ac38001/640x640.jpg)

He says something interesting about how he plays Kinderszenen

I think the same is true of the DBT performance. About Davidsbundlertanze he says something incomprehensible about angels, the sort of thing which makes me wince

Live event, Fazioli, nice Fazioli, I'm learining to like them, well recorded, very well recorded.


I really like these recordings, too. I guess his style of playing (maybe one could call it volatile, highly inflected) fits Schumann generally very well.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Mandryka on April 07, 2019, 05:35:54 AM
He's done a lot of Schumann, which I'll try to explore. I got to know him through a really good recording of Chopin Etudes. I started to listen to some of his Bach/Busoni a couple of weeks ago and turned it off after two minutes because it seemed so vulgar . . . but maybe it was ironic vulgarity . . . which would make it OK.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Verena on April 07, 2019, 06:11:57 AM
Oh yes, I also tried some Bach-Busoni, didn't like that all.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on April 09, 2019, 02:47:35 PM
Quote from: Herman on March 24, 2019, 01:15:57 AM
I have always been puzzled by the Schumann Was a Nutcase view.

Here is one of the most prolific composers in history who also managed to edit a music magazine and lead an orchestra.

In addition to this he had a large family.

I would have gone stark raving mad with all those responsibilities, but he kept on, until the sound in his head drove him crazy.

Mad men (or women  -  which were more common in that era) usually are largely unproductive members of society.

I thought the accepted narrative is that mental illness overtook him towards the lend of his life, when he had a breakdown that landed him an asylum.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Herman on April 09, 2019, 11:12:08 PM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on April 09, 2019, 02:47:35 PM
I thought the accepted narrative is that mental illness overtook him towards the lend of his life, when he had a breakdown that landed him an asylum.

Indeed it is, but there are still shitloads of people who continue to say that it's obvious from the start, in his music, that Schumann was crazy.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Jo498 on April 10, 2019, 12:39:47 AM
It's a little more subtle than that. There was a strain among romantics like Schumann that "cultivated" a little craziness, although probably in a subclinical sense. As a not necessarily dark side of creativity, I guess. This is already clear a generation earlier in ETA Hoffmann who drank until hallucinating and wrote several stories where (actually even clinical or criminal) madness is a major topic (and far more where dreams or drink-induced episodes occur) And he is using such language even in innocuous context, e.g. the audience should become ecstatic visionaries "verzückte Geisterseher" in the famous commentary on Beethoven'S 5th.
Cf. also the opium using British writers of that time.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Mandryka on April 10, 2019, 01:39:32 AM
I don't know that it's fair to say that Schumann cultivated craziness, on the contrary, he was rather ashamed of his eccentric early music, writing in 1843 of DBT and the Fantasy

Quote from: Schumann to KossmalyThey are mostly reflections of my turbulent earlier life; with me, man and musician always strove to express themselves simultaneously; it is probably still the same now, though I have admittedly learned to control myself and my art more. How many joys and sorrows lie buried together in these tiny little bundles of notes, your sympathetic heart will find out.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on April 10, 2019, 08:21:50 AM
Quote from: Herman on April 09, 2019, 11:12:08 PM
Indeed it is, but there are still shitloads of people who continue to say that it's obvious from the start, in his music, that Schumann was crazy.

Seems like he was manic-depressive for most of his adult life. That not what people usually mean by "crazy."
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Crudblud on June 03, 2020, 09:53:22 PM
How's that for luck! Hey, amw, any chance you can repost that list you made?
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: amw on June 03, 2020, 10:39:08 PM
Nope! It is gone forever (or at least until the next time I'm thinking about Davidsbündlertänzen). Hope you enjoyed it while it lasted...
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Crudblud on June 04, 2020, 12:00:29 AM
Aw, well, at least I have the memories. Thanks again for going to the trouble, even if the results were shortlived. The only names I can remember (aside from the ubiquitous) are Geza Anda and Florian Uhlig, but that should be enough for now.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Iota on June 05, 2020, 12:17:31 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 02, 2019, 05:31:19 AM
Worthwhile essay I thought here

So did I. Thanks for posting.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: amw on June 07, 2020, 04:40:02 AM
Revived version of the list, this time with 99 various recordings I've turned up, some of which appear self-published. Not a complete survey by any means, just covers what can be found thru streaming + 1 or 2 things I have myself.

Notes on the versions:

Two major sets of changes were made between 1837 and 1850: 1) the musical text was changed, typically in order to make chords fuller and more pianistic as well as get rid of some dissonances. Some of the many ritardandi are removed as well. The most obvious change is the end of No. 9, which is one bar shorter. 2) A large number of repeats were added throughout the piece, making it significantly longer. Some of these repeats significantly alter the transitory and fleeting character of certain passages (this is most noticeable in Nos. 1, 3 and 15), in an attempt to make them sound more "normal", which usually fails.

I mention these separately because there's a strong tendency for pianists to pick and choose separately. Pianists who play the 1837 text with the 1850 repeats generally seem to approve of the more eccentric and less virtuosic 1837 character but want to regularise the large-scale structure; pianists who play the 1850 text with the 1837 repeats seem to prefer the more brilliant 1850 character but also understand the 1837 repeat structure as fundamentally important to the nature of the piece. (Or they were recording on 78s and didn't have that much room.)

My preference is almost exclusively for the 1837 version, but there are of course several great recordings of the more common 1850 version as well.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: amw on June 07, 2020, 04:46:30 AM
Quote from: amw on June 07, 2020, 04:40:02 AM
Revived version of the list, this time with 99 various recordings I've turned up, some of which appear self-published. Not a complete survey by any means, just covers what can be found thru streaming + 1 or 2 things I have myself.

Notes on the versions:

Two major sets of changes were made between 1837 and 1850: 1) the musical text was changed, typically in order to make chords fuller and more pianistic as well as get rid of some dissonances. Some of the many ritardandi are removed as well. The most obvious change is the end of No. 9, which is one bar shorter. 2) A large number of repeats were added throughout the piece, making it significantly longer. Some of these repeats significantly alter the transitory and fleeting character of certain passages (this is most noticeable in Nos. 1, 3 and 15), in an attempt to make them sound more "normal", which usually fails.

I mention these separately because there's a strong tendency for pianists to pick and choose separately. Pianists who play the 1837 text with the 1850 repeats generally seem to approve of the more eccentric and less virtuosic 1837 character but want to regularise the large-scale structure; pianists who play the 1850 text with the 1837 repeats seem to prefer the more brilliant 1850 character but also understand the 1837 repeat structure as fundamentally important to the nature of the piece. (Or they were recording on 78s and didn't have that much room.)

My preference is almost exclusively for the 1837 version, but there are of course several great recordings of the more common 1850 version as well.
Also here's a short list of preferences from me

Top 5
Anda (either one, slight preference for DG)
Kempff/EMI (not DG)
Pollini (either one)
Ugorski
Zacharias

Other recommendations
Arrau
Biss/Wigmore Hall Live
Ciani
Collard
Cortot
Haefliger
Hough
Uchida
Zhu
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Crudblud on June 07, 2020, 08:02:58 AM
Thank you so much for bringing the list back, I'm looking forward to exploring both versions.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Brian on June 09, 2020, 06:27:13 AM
Thank you, amw - I just saved the big list file in case the forum crashes again soon...
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: vers la flamme on June 09, 2020, 04:17:05 PM
Maybe I just haven't heard the right recordings, but for some reason I don't put Davidsbündlertänze in anywhere near the same category as, say, Carnaval or Kreisleriana. It just doesn't seem to be as coherent, or as good, as those other two works. Does anyone want to show me the light with a recording that's so good, I won't be able to deny its greatness?  :D

For what it's worth, the ones I've heard include Perahia, Hewitt, and Zacharias.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Brian on June 09, 2020, 04:23:22 PM
To figure out what you are currently missing or desiring from recordings - is it mostly "coherence" particularly? Structure? Any other deficiency a great pianist could try to correct?

I ask because someone like amw is probably in a position to recommend a recording for every taste and sensibility!
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: amw on June 09, 2020, 08:43:32 PM
Actually my first recommendation would probably be Charles Rosen's analysis of DBT in The Romantic Generation—for those without institutional access, it's pages 223-236 within this chapter (https://www.dropbox.com/s/2aq5qxdgn2xlw7p/ch3.pdf?dl=0).

It was difficult for me to find recordings that successfully brought out the structure of the larger work while also preserving its essential qualities of madness and eccentricity, but I was probably lucky in that my first exposure to the piece was a rebroadcast of the Kempff 1963 (EMI) performance on Mezzo TV and one of the first recordings I obtained was the Géza Anda: Troubadour of the Piano DG box set (although virtually every recording in that box is Best In Class for its particular composition), so I've been prejudiced towards it for a long time.

It is the second most difficult of Schumann's works for the piano (after the Symphonic Etudes) which probably contributes to its relatively lesser prominence and reputation.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Jo498 on June 10, 2020, 12:07:45 AM
It's less obviously virtuoso and spectactular than Carnaval and the Symphonic Etudes and not as obviously "deep" and darkish as Kreisleriana.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: vers la flamme on June 10, 2020, 02:17:42 AM
Quote from: amw on June 09, 2020, 08:43:32 PM
Actually my first recommendation would probably be Charles Rosen's analysis of DBT in The Romantic Generation—for those without institutional access, it's pages 223-236 within this chapter (https://www.dropbox.com/s/2aq5qxdgn2xlw7p/ch3.pdf?dl=0).

It was difficult for me to find recordings that successfully brought out the structure of the larger work while also preserving its essential qualities of madness and eccentricity, but I was probably lucky in that my first exposure to the piece was a rebroadcast of the Kempff 1963 (EMI) performance on Mezzo TV and one of the first recordings I obtained was the Géza Anda: Troubadour of the Piano DG box set (although virtually every recording in that box is Best In Class for its particular composition), so I've been prejudiced towards it for a long time.

It is the second most difficult of Schumann's works for the piano (after the Symphonic Etudes) which probably contributes to its relatively lesser prominence and reputation.

Wow, what a resource—thanks! I intend to buy this book sometime, it actually looks like somewhat of an easier read than Rosen's companion book The Classical Style, which I have but have not yet been able to make my way through it. I'll have to check out Anda, if I can find it. As for Kempff, how do you feel about his DG recording? I have been vaguely considering that Kempff/Schumann box set.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Jo498 on June 10, 2020, 03:22:49 AM
The Romantic Generation is overall more difficult than The classical style, I'd say. But it is very different in such that it has almost nontechnical chapters that are closer to general cultural history (Mountains and Song cycles)  and some very technical ones (on Chopin etudes or so). So as a layman one can skip (most of) the latter ones and still profit from the earlier ones whereas in The classical style one tends to need scores and a pretty good familiarity with the respective pieces to follow the argument at all.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Mandryka on June 10, 2020, 06:29:16 AM
Quote from: amw on June 07, 2020, 04:46:30 AM
Also here's a short list of preferences from me

Top 5
Anda (either one, slight preference for DG)
Kempff/EMI (not DG)
Pollini (either one)
Ugorski
Zacharias

Other recommendations
Arrau
Biss/Wigmore Hall Live
Ciani
Collard
Cortot
Haefliger
Hough
Uchida
Zhu

Surprised not to see Gieseking in this list.  Did you ever hear Stephen Osborne?
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: vers la flamme on June 10, 2020, 02:24:37 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on June 10, 2020, 03:22:49 AM
The Romantic Generation is overall more difficult than The classical style, I'd say. But it is very different in such that it has almost nontechnical chapters that are closer to general cultural history (Mountains and Song cycles)  and some very technical ones (on Chopin etudes or so). So as a layman one can skip (most of) the latter ones and still profit from the earlier ones whereas in The classical style one tends to need scores and a pretty good familiarity with the respective pieces to follow the argument at all.

Thanks for the warning! I find The Classical Style a bit of a challenging read due to the density of technical and theoretical discussion, and I was suspecting no less from The Romantic Generation. I read through the "Mountains and Song Cycles" chapter this morning and found it fascinating. I hope to track down the book and read it in full eventually.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Ratliff on June 10, 2020, 02:40:40 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 09, 2020, 04:17:05 PM
Maybe I just haven't heard the right recordings, but for some reason I don't put Davidsbündlertänze in anywhere near the same category as, say, Carnaval or Kreisleriana. It just doesn't seem to be as coherent, or as good, as those other two works. Does anyone want to show me the light with a recording that's so good, I won't be able to deny its greatness?  :D

For what it's worth, the ones I've heard include Perahia, Hewitt, and Zacharias.

For Schumann the foundation of my collection is Kempff and Pollini, although there are others I like a lot, such as Perhia and Egorov, who have been more recent discoveries.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: vers la flamme on June 10, 2020, 03:23:36 PM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on June 10, 2020, 02:40:40 PM
For Schumann the foundation of my collection is Kempff and Pollini, although there are others I like a lot, such as Perhia and Egorov, who have been more recent discoveries.

Pollini, eh? I have his C major Fantasy and don't much remember it, but the Schubert Wanderer it's coupled with is damn good. I'll have to give it another listen. So he did a pretty good Davidsbundlertänze, then?

I've been thinking of picking up that Kempff 4CD, as I love his pianism, but I'm not sure whether I would find it well-suited to my personal tastes in Schumann.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Ratliff on June 10, 2020, 03:27:19 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 10, 2020, 03:23:36 PM
Pollini, eh? I have his C major Fantasy and don't much remember it, but the Schubert Wanderer it's coupled with is damn good. I'll have to give it another listen. So he did a pretty good Davidsbundlertänze, then?

I've been thinking of picking up that Kempff 4CD, as I love his pianism, but I'm not sure whether I would find it well-suited to my personal tastes in Schumann.

I feel like we've been down this road before, maybe on another web site. Kempff's Papillons was the recording that opened my eyes to Schumann. After that I've never heard a Kempff Schumann recording that didn't impress me.

After listening to a Richter recording of Papillons I spent 10 years thinking I hated Schumann. I later discovered I hate Richter.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: amw on June 10, 2020, 06:26:09 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 10, 2020, 02:17:42 AM
Wow, what a resource—thanks! I intend to buy this book sometime, it actually looks like somewhat of an easier read than Rosen's companion book The Classical Style, which I have but have not yet been able to make my way through it. I'll have to check out Anda, if I can find it. As for Kempff, how do you feel about his DG recording? I have been vaguely considering that Kempff/Schumann box set.
I remember not being especially impressed with Kempff on DG (used to have MP3s of that box) but no longer remember why. I'll revisit it and see what I think now.

Quote from: Mandryka on June 10, 2020, 06:29:16 AM
Surprised not to see Gieseking in this list.  Did you ever hear Stephen Osborne?
I do not remember what I thought of Gieseking (believe there's only the one recording...) although I have presumably listened to it at some point. I will also get back to you with my thoughts on the Osborne, which I believe you sent me a while back—have listened to it 3 times apparently, most recently in November, but did not take any notes.

Quote from: vers la flamme on June 10, 2020, 02:24:37 PM
Thanks for the warning! I find The Classical Style a bit of a challenging read due to the density of technical and theoretical discussion, and I was suspecting no less from The Romantic Generation. I read through the "Mountains and Song Cycles" chapter this morning and found it fascinating. I hope to track down the book and read it in full eventually.
If you have institutional access, you can read it online here: https://www.fulcrum.org/concern/monographs/cn69m447c

If you don't, it may be worth buying, or there may be a full PDF available from somewhere. Unfortunately I suspect sharing the entire book on my dropbox would get my account suspended.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Florestan on June 11, 2020, 01:13:07 AM
Quote from: amw on June 10, 2020, 06:26:09 PM
If you have institutional access, you can read it online here: https://www.fulcrum.org/concern/monographs/cn69m447c

If you don't, it may be worth buying, or there may be a full PDF available from somewhere. Unfortunately I suspect sharing the entire book on my dropbox would get my account suspended.

https://epdf.pub/the-romantic-generation-charles-eliot-norton-lectures.html (https://epdf.pub/the-romantic-generation-charles-eliot-norton-lectures.html)
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: vers la flamme on June 11, 2020, 01:17:13 PM
Quote from: Ratliff on June 10, 2020, 03:27:19 PM
I feel like we've been down this road before, maybe on another web site. Kempff's Papillons was the recording that opened my eyes to Schumann. After that I've never heard a Kempff Schumann recording that didn't impress me.

After listening to a Richter recording of Papillons I spent 10 years thinking I hated Schumann. I later discovered I hate Richter.

Oh yes, I do remember talking to you about this, and being amazed at your hatred of Richter's Schumann, which I adore. I remember you preferring Argerich, no? Well, I adore her Schumann likewise, so we can agree there at least.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: vers la flamme on June 11, 2020, 01:17:59 PM
Quote from: amw on June 10, 2020, 06:26:09 PM
I remember not being especially impressed with Kempff on DG (used to have MP3s of that box) but no longer remember why. I'll revisit it and see what I think now.
I do not remember what I thought of Gieseking (believe there's only the one recording...) although I have presumably listened to it at some point. I will also get back to you with my thoughts on the Osborne, which I believe you sent me a while back—have listened to it 3 times apparently, most recently in November, but did not take any notes.
If you have institutional access, you can read it online here: https://www.fulcrum.org/concern/monographs/cn69m447c

If you don't, it may be worth buying, or there may be a full PDF available from somewhere. Unfortunately I suspect sharing the entire book on my dropbox would get my account suspended.

I don't at all mind buying the book. I'd prefer to read it in print vs screen anyway.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Brian on June 17, 2020, 07:17:17 AM
Quote from: Brian on June 09, 2020, 06:27:13 AM
Thank you, amw - I just saved the big list file in case the forum crashes again soon...
And of course my computer died and won't turn on anymore  ;D ;D this thread is cursed

Jed Distler has a new rave review for a recording on your sheet, Marcin Fleszar on Rubicon (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/enchanting-rameau-and-schumann-from-marcin-fleszar/): "Whatever led Marcin Fleszar to pair Rameau's A minor Suite with Schumann's Davidsbündlertanze, all I can say is that the idea is original and inspired."
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: amw on June 18, 2020, 01:43:54 AM
I have not listened to the Fleszar yet. I am going thru all the recordings of DBT that I personally have and assigning them a letter grade and one-sentence summary, but that will take a while (also in the middle of moving house) so don't hold your breath.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Mandryka on July 26, 2021, 06:20:46 AM
https://www.youtube.com/v/iK_9EZ3uh-k&ab_channel=JohnClifford
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Iota on July 26, 2021, 10:04:39 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 26, 2021, 06:20:46 AM
https://www.youtube.com/v/iK_9EZ3uh-k&ab_channel=JohnClifford

Thanks for posting that. I'm not a big fan of non-modern ballet really, and found 10 or so minutes of that was enough for one session, but it was nonetheless interesting. An idea with great potential I think.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Mandryka on July 26, 2021, 11:31:26 AM
Quote from: Iota on July 26, 2021, 10:04:39 AM
Thanks for posting that. I'm not a big fan of non-modern ballet really, and found 10 or so minutes of that was enough for one session, but it was nonetheless interesting. An idea with great potential I think.

If you see the first page if this thread you'll see I said much the same thing about it in 2009, and was then told off by Herman!
Title: Re: Davidsbündlertänze
Post by: Mandryka on October 04, 2022, 01:13:40 AM
Quote from: val on February 13, 2013, 01:01:08 AM
After all this years, Geza Anda still remains my favorite. But Karl Engel has here one of his most inspired performances. And there is Gieseking in his version of 1947 with an imagination unique but also a very bad sound.

What a pity Yves Nat didn't record this beautiful work.

Hi Val? Where are you?

Anyway, Karl Engel's recording is available in a lovely transfer on Spotify and I'm enjoying hearing it now - there's also a good Bunte Blätter, and lots of other things.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Mandryka on January 09, 2023, 05:32:31 AM
(https://storage.highresaudio.com/2023/01/03/hrd2kv-schumannpi-preview-m3.jpg)

New release. Oppitz is possessed by the ghost of Kempff.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Todd on January 09, 2023, 05:46:07 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 09, 2023, 05:32:31 AM(https://storage.highresaudio.com/2023/01/03/hrd2kv-schumannpi-preview-m3.jpg)

New release. Oppitz is possessed by the ghost of Kempff.

That would require Oppitz to entirely change his playing style.  Interesting.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Mandryka on January 09, 2023, 06:12:55 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 09, 2023, 05:46:07 AMThat would require Oppitz to entirely change his playing style.  Interesting.

Let me know what you think, it's streaming everywhere.
Title: Re: Davidsbundlertanze
Post by: Mandryka on January 22, 2023, 09:51:24 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 09, 2023, 05:46:07 AMThat would require Oppitz to entirely change his playing style.  Interesting.

You were right, I just checked Kempff Besançon and it is much lighter.