Wow, what a coup! Now, if only someone could help me with the title. ??? Anyone have the perfect Maderna header?
Anyhow, wow, have we not been graced with a little Madernalogue? Well, being that he's right smack dab right in the middle of all my favorite Italians, let me begin the conversation.
I had read about the DG (Aura, Biogramma, Quadrivium) cd in Penguin, and aquired the Boulez piece, and finally got Aura (w/Dallapicolla). Ok, but so much Maderna was OOP, so, it wasn't until I found the DG disc at AnDieMusick in Baltimore, that I got my first real taste of Maderna's improv-sounding, every sound plus the kitchen sink approach to conducting/composing (sort of like Segerstam, but without the exasperation!??). Maderna seems to love all things tinkling, and his scores glitter.
I also got Holliger playing the 3 Oboe Concertos (ten years, and $60), which, I think, may be the best place to start with Maderna (though, the DG disc rocks). I just love the sound of Maderna's orchestra,... very ennui, yet glittering (littered) with sounds. He always comes off pretty mellow, to my ears,... very laid back (the jolly fat man?).
And I have the Ardiiti disc of Chamber Music for Strings. It is one of the Arditti's most varied montaigne installments, with solos, duos, and trios, vying with Maderna's only real String Quartet (1955), that, along with Berio's (1956), really marks the beginning of the post-war serialist trend (no?). Some of Maderna's nicest pieces are for solo strings, such as Widmung, pour Ivry, and Viola.
Stradivarius is up to about 7 volumes in their ongoing Maderna survey, including issues of his Electronic Music, and Chamber Music (which doesn't really duplicate the Arditti disc). To my general displeasure, though, their recitals seem a bit of a mix/mash, and ultimately, I hope to just get the Violin Concerto on MP3 (unless one of you fine folks has it?). The Grand Aulodia and Il Giardino Religioso are the other two Maderna pieces I'm itching to hear, but they are scattered over a few discs.
Also, there is the budget ColLegno disc that I haven't heard, with the intriguing piece, Ausstralung. Then, there's plenty of big vocal stuff that I'm probably not all that keen on, a few straggler pieces, and, I think that's about it for Maderna, cd wise (except, of course, as conductor).
I'm hoping that someone out there can speak more lucidly about Maderna than I can. I'm really interested to see who counts him on their short list.
I can only second you, I fear.
The DG disc is to die for. Those three pieces are some of the more exquisite and excruciatingly gorgeous music of the late sixties, early seventies. Wow. Desert island disc in spades.
I just got the oboe concertos a couple of months ago. More wowing. The oboe's such a cool instrument, anyway, whether it's playing ancient music or Günter Becker's Concerto for Electronically Modulated Oboe and Orchestra. Very satisfying compositions, too. If you're into that kind of thing.
I haven't spent much time yet with Maderna's operas Satyricon and Hyperion, but early impressions are pretty good for those, too. (No, I'm not sure that "opera" is quite the right word, for either.)
Apparently Neos is putting out some Maderna discs. I noticed an "Orchestral Music, volume 1" thing on Amazon. I'll be heading on over to the Neos site after I click "Post" here.
Last november I witnessed ( in Venice/ La fenice) the worldpremiere performence of Maderna's 1946 Requiem . A massive 60 mins. work for soli, large chorus and an orchestra with a huge brass section ( 8 horns), 3 pianos + percussion.
Maderna was only 26 when he wrote it and it is totaly unlike anything in his later work. Think of a Stravinsky/Petrassi/Dallapiccola mix, with the odd Verdi ( Dies Irae...+ bass drum) influence....
Actually, the score was supposedly lost and only rediscoverd in 1996 by an Italian musicologist . La fenice forces performed it twice as their symphonic season opening. Riccardo Chailly was scheduled as conductor..but withdrew. The young Andrea Molino kept the complex score in good order.
VRT/KLARA will broadcast that performance later this year, in November.
P.
ps my favorite Maderna work is Grande aulodia.
pps : Mangiare con Maderna ?
Magnus Maderna?
Il mausoleo di Maderna???
Quote from: some guy on February 23, 2010, 10:08:12 PM
I can only second you, I fear.
The DG disc is to die for. Those three pieces are some of the more exquisite and excruciatingly gorgeous music of the late sixties, early seventies. Wow. Desert island disc in spades.
I just got the oboe concertos a couple of months ago. More wowing. The oboe's such a cool instrument, anyway, whether it's playing ancient music or Günter Becker's Concerto for Electronically Modulated Oboe and Orchestra. Very satisfying compositions, too. If you're into that kind of thing.
I haven't spent much time yet with Maderna's operas Satyricon and Hyperion, but early impressions are pretty good for those, too. (No, I'm not sure that "opera" is quite the right word, for either.)
Apparently Neos is putting out some Maderna discs. I noticed an "Orchestral Music, volume 1" thing on Amazon. I'll be heading on over to the Neos site after I click "Post" here.
Everybody likes Maderna!
I saw 2(!) Neos discs, but no info. Will check.
Also, forgot to mention
Serenata... Satellite (forget title), and, isn't there at least one or two other interesting chamber works?,... one in
"Due Dimensioni"? Will check.
Quote from: pjme on February 24, 2010, 03:22:34 AM
Last november I witnessed ( in Venice/ La fenice) the worldpremiere performence of Maderna's 1946 Requiem . A massive 60 mins. work for soli, large chorus and an orchestra with a huge brass section ( 8 horns), 3 pianos + percussion.
Maderna was only 26 when he wrote it and it is totaly unlike anything in his later work. Think of a Stravinsky/Petrassi/Dallapiccola mix, with the odd Verdi ( Dies Irae...+ bass drum) influence....
Actually, the score was supposedly lost and only rediscoverd in 1996 by an Italian musicologist . La fenice forces performed it twice as their symphonic season opening. Riccardo Chailly was scheduled as conductor..but withdrew. The young Andrea Molino kept the complex score in good order.
VRT/KLARA will broadcast that performance later this year, in November.
P.
ps my favorite Maderna work is Grande aulodia.
pps : Mangiare con Maderna ?
Magnus Maderna?
Il mausoleo di Maderna???
He does love the 3 pianos, haha! even then!
I was listening to, actually, the "early" String Quartet (not the "only one" I alluded to earlier, that's the 1955 one, the "proper" one), which is a one mvmt., 6min. piece that reminds of a Latinate Bartok (Ginastera?). Charming. Yes, the Arditti disc is special!
Just out on CD.
(http://i.prs.to/t_200/naxos8572642.jpg)
Quote from: some guy on February 23, 2010, 10:08:12 PM
The DG disc is to die for. Those three pieces are some of the more exquisite and excruciatingly gorgeous music of the late sixties, early seventies. Wow. Desert island disc in spades.
Agreed. Loved that LP when it came out in the '80s. I've got the second CD reissue (DG 20/21). I think I appreciate it even more now. Absolutely gorgeous.
Quote from: MDL on November 01, 2011, 12:51:53 AM
Just out on CD.
(http://i.prs.to/t_200/naxos8572642.jpg)
Ordered it a few days ago. Impressions will be reported in due time.
Quote from: The new erato on November 01, 2011, 02:21:56 AM
Ordered it a few days ago. Impressions will be reported in due time.
Hoping to buy it today and play it tonight. The race is on!!!!
You'll beat me I'm afraid. Not even sent from the UK yet.
Well, Maderna on Naxos is interesting!
Quote from: snyprrr on February 23, 2010, 08:17:57 PM
I had read about the DG (Aura, Biogramma, Quadrivium) cd in Penguin
Quote from: some guy on February 23, 2010, 10:08:12 PM
I can only second you, I fear. The DG disc is to die for.
Quote from: MDL on November 01, 2011, 12:55:30 AM
Agreed. Loved that LP when it came out in the '80s. I've got the second CD reissue (DG 20/21). I think I appreciate it even more now. Absolutely gorgeous.
Is that with Sinopoli conducting?...available now from Brilliant?
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 01, 2011, 06:17:43 AM
Is that with Sinopoli conducting?...available now from Brilliant?
Apparently so (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/Oct10/maderna_brilliant9190.htm), Sarge . . . which is a bit of goose, as the Arkiv Music reissue looks full price . . . the Brilliant is a wallet-friendlier alternative.
Quote from: karlhenning on November 01, 2011, 06:24:01 AM
Apparently so (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/Oct10/maderna_brilliant9190.htm), Sarge . . . which is a bit of goose, as the Arkiv Music reissue looks full price . . . the Brilliant is a wallet-friendlier alternative.
Yeah, just €4.99 from Amazon DE
Sarge
Any fans of the Violin Concerto? There's rarely an affordable copy available...
Quote from: The new erato on November 01, 2011, 02:21:56 AM
Ordered it a few days ago. Impressions will be reported in due time.
Initial impressions:
Quadrivium. At 31' 41", is the new recording much quicker than the DG recording? My listening room is a tip and I can't find my old CD (and the LP is buried in the garage; yes, I'm a slob), but I'm sure Sinopoli spent longer on this piece. In the new Naxos recording, the orchestra sounds closer and warmer, but perhaps softer than the Sinopoli; the first big climax, with the jagged, jazzy brass-and-metal-percussion cross rhythms, probably isn't as snappy as the DG, while the orgasmic clatter of gongs and tam-tams over sustained strings at 21'45"-ish is slightly softened in the new recording. Still, in such a complex score, different details are bound to be revealed with a new recording.
The Piano Concerto from 1942 in two versions? Yeah, nice. Well, meh. Nice background music for dinner parties.
Concerto for two pianos and instruments? Very Bartok, in a good way. I'll be returning to this before too long. But make no mistake; billing on the CD as it may be, the new
Quadrivium is the star attraction of this CD.
Grande Aulodia is one of my favourites - I was lucky enough to be introduced to Maderna about 20 years ago by a concert performance of this, which entranced me. That and other works are, ahem, referenced and discussed here:
http://highponytail.blogspot.com/2009/11/maderna-as-composer-problem-part-2.html
The first time I listened to Satyricon I wasn't really concentrating and couldn't really make anything of it - but the second time I was fascinated and laughed myself silly - he's the only one who can compete with Zimmermann's Musique pour les soupers du Roi Ubu (or whatever it's called) for wicked quotation from musical history.
Quote from: snyprrr on February 23, 2010, 08:17:57 PM
Also, there is the budget ColLegno disc that I haven't heard, with the intriguing piece, Ausstrahlung.
You can find this on the Orchestral Works vol. 3 disc on Neos. As usual with Maderna, the instrumental and orchestral writing is outstanding, and the use of tape to relay most of the spoken text works quite well. I don't care much for the sung bits, with a vibrato that is quite annoying in places, but luckily that is confined to a section in the middle of the work.
Funny how Maderna's got a haberna & now Brian's got one too!
Are habanera's contagious? :o ;D
In a late 1990s interview, Boulez said that he doesn't conduct Maderna not because he doesn't appreciate the music, but because the scores are often illegible and erroneous, and Boulez awaits new editions. Has the situation improved or are contemporary performers still working from these scores?
I pulled out the Oboe Concerto No.3, a late work, very dreamy impressionistic backgrounds with a very expressive Holliger. Maderna gets points for being probably the 'hippest' Composer...
ok, nevermind, it'll just start an argument, haha...
Maderna integrated the aleatory elements the most seamlessly of his contemporaries, perhaps?
Quote from: snyprrr on August 17, 2012, 08:22:26 PM
Maderna integrated the aleatory elements the most seamlessly of his contemporaries, perhaps?
I'm no Maderna expert, but aren't you forgetting about Lutoslawski?
Quote from: lescamil on August 17, 2012, 11:06:42 PM
I'm no Maderna expert, but aren't you forgetting about Lutoslawski?
I'm thinking Maderna's technique was more pervasive. Didn't WL just use this here and there? Most all of Maderna's orchestra in the oboe piece sounded slightly ad lib,... WL sounds nowhere near as pervasively dreamy as Maderna.
Quote from: snyprrr on August 18, 2012, 06:21:59 AM
I'm thinking Maderna's technique was more pervasive. Didn't WL just use this here and there? Most all of Maderna's orchestra in the oboe piece sounded slightly ad lib,... WL sounds nowhere near as pervasively dreamy as Maderna.
Nope, it's utterly critical in Lutoslawski; the interaction between
a battuta and
ad libitum in mature Lutoslawski can be regarded as a dialectical process somewhat akin to sonata form (particularly obviously in Webern's description of sonata form as a contrast between strict and free).
Quote from: edward on August 18, 2012, 12:02:40 PM
Nope, it's utterly critical in Lutoslawski; the interaction between a battuta and ad libitum in mature Lutoslawski can be regarded as a dialectical process somewhat akin to sonata form (particularly obviously in Webern's description of sonata form as a contrast between strict and free).
I stand corrected. hmm...
Been listening to this today. It's been years since I listened to Maderna so systematically. In short: Wow, just wow. These recordings are absolutely gorgeous.
[asin]B00320J6YG[/asin][asin]B00365QSNY[/asin][asin]B004QI14SO[/asin][asin]B006VCFCFE[/asin]
Quote from: petrarch on September 09, 2012, 12:38:45 PM
Been listening to this today. It's been years since I listened to Maderna so systematically. In short: Wow, just wow. These recordings are absolutely gorgeous.
[asin]B00320J6YG[/asin][asin]B00365QSNY[/asin][asin]B004QI14SO[/asin][asin]B006VCFCFE[/asin]
Ah, they're up to Vol.4!! You make them all look real tempting there all in a row. ;)
Hopefully the Violin Concerto will get the treatment.
bump for Italy
I like Maderna more and more everyday. The Oboe concerti, Sinopoli´s recordings, his chamber and electronic music... it surrounds me like fresh and scattered rain of musical notes.
Quote from: Pessoa on November 10, 2013, 11:28:09 AM
I like Maderna more and more everyday. The Oboe concerti, Sinopoli´s recordings, his chamber and electronic music... it surrounds me like fresh and scattered rain of musical notes.
Maderna is definitely a composer 'under my radar.' I'm definitely going to be buying all of those Neos label recordings of his orchestral music.
Quote from: snyprrr on September 10, 2012, 07:36:14 AM
Hopefully the Violin Concerto will get the treatment.
Speaking of the VC, Vol. 5 already available!
[asin]B00F4IEB2Q[/asin]
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 10, 2013, 12:36:08 PM
Speaking of the VC, Vol. 5 already available!
And with no less a soloist than Thomas Zehetmair playing too. Which is good news: I've heard a radio aircheck of him playing the piece and he makes a great case for it.
Quote from: edward on November 10, 2013, 12:45:08 PM
And with no less a soloist than Thomas Zehetmair playing too. Which is good news: I've heard a radio aircheck of him playing the piece and he makes a great case for it.
I'll definitely be digging into that concerto at some point along with a lot more of Maderna's music.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 10, 2013, 12:36:08 PM
Speaking of the VC, Vol. 5 already available!
[asin]B00F4IEB2Q[/asin]
I think I just came!! :P HOW LONG have we been waiting? tears of joy :'( :'(
Quote from: edward on November 10, 2013, 12:45:08 PM
And with no less a soloist than Thomas Zehetmair playing too. Which is good news: I've heard a radio aircheck of him playing the piece and he makes a great case for it.
yaaaaaaaaaaaay!!!
I haven't even gotten ONE CD is this Series, and now the $$$ output is pretty daunting. gaaaah >:D
Maderna's Satellite.
Serenata per Bruno Maderna
A nice, if brief, tribute to Maderna from the Guardian's Tom Service: http://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2013/nov/13/bruno-maderna-composer-conductor
Quote from: edward on November 13, 2013, 08:51:35 AM
A nice, if brief, tribute to Maderna from the Guardian's Tom Service: http://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2013/nov/13/bruno-maderna-composer-conductor
Nice links in that article. Thanks.
I didn´t know his early works for orchestra until yesterday. I was very pleased with their fresh sounds and mysterious-like suggestions. They sound a recognisable Maderna alright. However, I could do without the Kafka recitative (I don´t like them).
Istruzioni
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VOSVVelpH0
While we're at it:
http://www.youtube.com/v/xY9Rx9oFZfw
http://www.youtube.com/v/5AxNcusxShQ
And for completeness:
http://www.youtube.com/v/XDD5gqKgrFY
http://www.youtube.com/v/BKiddiPyDsE
How do you make to insert a video? I only managed to copy the url.
Quote from: Pessoa on November 19, 2013, 01:17:22 AM
How do you make to insert a video? I only managed to copy the url.
There is a thread with instructions, but in essence you need to
1. Change
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VOSVVelpH0
to
http://www.youtube.com/v/6VOSVVelpH0
and 2. wrap it using the flash icon in the toolbar, resulting in (minus the spaces)
[ flash=480,360 ] http://www.youtube.com/v/6VOSVVelpH0 [ / flash ]
Thanks, petrarch.
Can anyone report on the Tamayo Cycle? I'm practically ready to burst... need.... input.... mm...uh... yes, it's like constipation, HURRY!!
Quote from: snyprrr on April 02, 2014, 01:02:59 PM
Can anyone report on the Tamayo Cycle? I'm practically ready to burst... need.... input.... mm...uh... yes, it's like constipation, HURRY!!
Haven't heard the cycle, but I really hope Neos boxes the series up. Now,
that would be nice.
Neos charging reasonable prices for CDs would be nice too. Just sayin'.
Quote from: amw on April 02, 2014, 07:16:15 PM
Neos charging reasonable prices for CDs would be nice too. Just sayin'.
Well sure. That would be nice as well. :)
A lot of them are SACDs (all the Maderna series is) and those usually carry a premium. In any case, those 5 volumes are certainly worth it, and I didn't mind paying that premium at all... I would gladly pay double or triple for something I thoroughly enjoy, even if it means buying 2x or 3x less CDs; all things considered, it's a small difference for a big return.
Quote from: amw on April 02, 2014, 07:16:15 PM
Neos charging reasonable prices for CDs would be nice too. Just sayin'.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
NO SOUP FOR YOU!!
Quote from: amw on April 02, 2014, 07:16:15 PM
Neos charging reasonable prices for CDs would be nice too. Just sayin'.
LOL! :laugh:
I'm going to try to make a play for all five,... gulp,... with things like Neos, you have to get them riiight when they come out- they'll go down to $12 plus Sh.,... but THEN, all of a sudden, they're OOP and astronomical. But, getting this Maderna Cycle is like competitive eating, gaaah, brutal. Hai- bonzai!!
Quote from: petrarch on April 03, 2014, 03:52:56 AM
A lot of them are SACDs (all the Maderna series is) and those usually carry a premium. In any case, those 5 volumes are certainly worth it, and I didn't mind paying that premium at all... I would gladly pay double or triple for something I thoroughly enjoy, even if it means buying 2x or 3x less CDs; all things considered, it's a small difference for a big return.
Do you have any of the Neos Cycle? Any thoughts?
Quote from: snyprrr on April 27, 2014, 08:52:41 AM
Do you have any of the Neos Cycle? Any thoughts?
Yes (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,15876.msg657986.html#msg657986), all 5 now.
Quote from: petrarch on April 27, 2014, 12:28:48 PM
Yes (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,15876.msg657986.html#msg657986), all 5 now.
What pieces hit you? I've been having a head scratching time of it- I had no idea Maderna was like Stockhausen PLUS Cage!?!? I mean, a lot of it sounds, I don't want to say "mushy", but I definitely FEEL that improvisatory thing going on in most of it, which sometimes seems to rub me the wrong way.
All the pieces have tumult, and, if I ever thought that Maderna had a reputation for being "dreamy", well, those ideas got smashed up real bad whilst listening to these records. Piece after piece confounded me- What is he doing???- I ask myself-
Of course I've been comparing the three DG pieces, though it's hard because the Neos aren't Indexed. Besides the sonics, I'm not sure how much of a temperamental difference I hear between Tamayo and Sinopoli.
Please, give me an idea which pieces you would point out- I'm sitting here with a bunch of CDs I don't know what to do with. What about that totally oddball Flute Concerto? What is up with that? A very strange Fellini-esque thing? Maderna's earlier works are very boisterous- I mean, NONE of Maderna is 'safe' in that way that you better not pre-judge it.
All these pieces are just so loose high and free- I don't know if I can handle it! It seems Maderna is THE most Damstadrian Darmstadter that ever Darmstadted! He really puts everything into the pot.
Yea, I need a Maderna buddy on this one, haha! Hold my hand!!
I can't even pick a piece out that really really stands out for me yet. Of course the Violin Concerto is sweet with Zehetmair... are you familiar with the Stradivarius disc conducted by Gorli with the Violin Concerto and 'Grande Aulodia'? How would that compare to the Neos?
That Stradivarius Cycle is outrageously confusing!! Have any of those? Any Neos comparisons?
Frankly, Maderna is a Composer I can actually say I don't really like- based on what I've been hearing- but I think that just me, and I need to... I think I'll come around. There ARE a lot of violent outbursts in Maderna, though, making a lot of these pieces heavy going. I just can't believe I'm saying these things! Maderna? Heavy going? Who knew?
Anyhow, if you feel like chatting about the pieces, I'm here.
Start with, say, Aria. Much more "nimble" and "smooth" than, say, Stockhausen's vocal works (to use your comparison). Listen to it for what it is, not what you expected it to be.
Quote from: snyprrr on April 27, 2014, 03:20:49 PM
I mean, a lot of it sounds, I don't want to say "mushy", but I definitely FEEL that improvisatory thing going on in most of it, which sometimes seems to rub me the wrong way.
(...)
All these pieces are just so loose high and free- I don't know if I can handle it! It seems Maderna is THE most Damstadrian Darmstadter that ever Darmstadted! He really puts everything into the pot.
(...)
Frankly, Maderna is a Composer I can actually say I don't really like- based on what I've been hearing- but I think that just me, and I need to... I think I'll come around. There ARE a lot of violent outbursts in Maderna, though, making a lot of these pieces heavy going. I just can't believe I'm saying these things! Maderna? Heavy going? Who knew?
I don't think Maderna is heavy at all, outbursts and violence notwithstanding. On the contrary, I think he has a lightness of touch and of filigree texture that makes him ... dreamy, yes, in many places (thinking e.g. of
Quadrivium here). It is that same lightness that perhaps gives you the feeling that it is improvisatory, as it flows so naturally and so smoothly.
Your earlier comparison with Stockhausen reminded me of something Feldman said to him: "Leave the notes alone, Karlheinz!" At least Maderna can give you the illusion that he left the notes alone and didn't tweak them too much.
Quote from: petrarch on April 27, 2014, 05:30:30 PM
I don't think Maderna is heavy at all, outbursts and violence notwithstanding. On the contrary, I think he has a lightness of touch and of filigree texture that makes him ... dreamy, yes, in many places (thinking e.g. of Quadrivium here). It is that same lightness that perhaps gives you the feeling that it is improvisatory, as it flows so naturally and so smoothly.
Agreed here; there's always something appealing about the surface textures in Maderna. One might say his music always sounds Italian, but in truth his mature music sounds like Maderna, and nobody else. It has sense of freedom (in the improvisatory sense) that I don't usually hear in Dallapiccola, Nono or Berio.
Quote from: petrarch on April 27, 2014, 05:30:30 PM
I don't think Maderna is heavy at all, outbursts and violence notwithstanding. On the contrary, I think he has a lightness of touch and of filigree texture that makes him ... dreamy, yes, in many places (thinking e.g. of Quadrivium here). It is that same lightness that perhaps gives you the feeling that it is improvisatory, as it flows so naturally and so smoothly.
Your earlier comparison with Stockhausen reminded me of something Feldman said to him: "Leave the notes alone, Karlheinz!" At least Maderna can give you the illusion that he left the notes alone and didn't tweak them too much.
Quote from: edward on April 27, 2014, 06:24:13 PM
Agreed here; there's always something appealing about the surface textures in Maderna. One might say his music always sounds Italian, but in truth his mature music sounds like Maderna, and nobody else. It has sense of freedom (in the improvisatory sense) that I don't usually hear in Dallapiccola, Nono or Berio.
The one thing I have noticed is that Maderna makes me feel exactly like Donatoni. Perhaps it is that they don't adhere to my expectations. But, I think Donatoni, not KHS, is the closest sounding ("feeling") to Maderna?
'Aria' is shipping now!
Perhaps part of the issue I'm having is with these recordings, which are so open and airy and somewhat ballsy. They definite accentuate the "dangerous" aspects- some of the brass outburst are pretty loud!
I guess I just wasn't expecting OUTBURSTS from Maderna, and there are plenty of them! I just don't remember the Oboe Concertos giving me the same feeling, but then, that Philips recording is a different beast all together.
You mentioned 'Quadrivium'. What I am noticing- let's say Xenakis wrote 'Quadrivium': the bits would all be mathematically related- the piece might sound more like the ending of 'Persephassa'- but, with Maderna, all the bits have this unrelated feel in that I hear HUMANS playing the instruments whereas with Xenakis I hear Science playing the music (through hands). So, in 'Quadrivium', I hear the percussionists splishing and splashing, but it sounds all so- I don't want to say 'jazzy', but that's really the "feeling" I get. And I'm not sure how I feel about 'jazzy'.
Anyhow, I ordered another CD after whining to you, so, my dedication shouldn't be questioned, haha! I AM trying here. (I had better, huh?, seeing as I spent my left nut on this Cycle!)
And what's up with that manic Flute Concerto of 8 minutes? (I did hear Vol.2 on YT first)
I know Maderna isn't really a 'quotation' guy, but, is there some affinity with BA Zimmermann in his 'universality'?
Well, anyway, I'll keep at it!
thanks
Well, so, I've discovered that it is Nono, Maderna, and Donatoni that I have this very special attitude problem with, haha! It's as if Cage and Stockhausen had a baby...
Quote from: petrarch on April 27, 2014, 04:59:00 PM
Start with, say, Aria. Much more "nimble" and "smooth" than, say, Stockhausen's vocal works (to use your comparison). Listen to it for what it is, not what you expected it to be.
'Aria' hates my speakers! I'm finding digital distortion early on, when the singer really cuts loose for a moment. Do you hear anything in this one?
Also, in 'Quadrivium', within the first few minutes, the first entry of the timpani hit gives me some distortion for a moment. What's up? These recordings are so wide open- they're the only recording that have ever given these (normal) speakers problems. And that guitar Donatoni disc on Strad. (track 2 right off the bat)
Otherwise, I've been slowly digesting this Maderna Cycle,- he sure knows how to use a gong!- but his style seems so amorphous to me at times. I don't know, maybe it's the wide open recordings (I really have to turn the sound down to hear these correctly)? Maybe I just don't like the improvised sound in written music? Either way, it's better than jazz, but I don't even know what that means!
Much of Maderna seems to start of with a BigBang and then, serially, peters out by the end, like some celestial phenomenon, though, without the visionary melodies and harmonies I've come to associate with the visionary sound. Here, Maderna seems happy just to 'present' things as they are occurring? I don't know- Maderna sure is challenging my assumptions, and I'm giving him a lot of airtime, but I just don't know what the point of it all is (for some reason I always know what the point with, say, Xenakis, is- but here, no).
I don't even find the spectrum of color that Maderna invokes all that compelling, even though he's a master of orchestrating things like chimes and guitars/mandolins, and gongs. His string work seems pretty typical to me, all depressing serialist strings sounding Expressionistic is outbursts. The brass are usually loud and braying. Then, long periods where I have to turn the volume up; then, quickly, I have to turn it down. Maderna is making me work here, and I'm not sure how well I'm going along with it.
Anyhow.
Quote from: snyprrr on May 12, 2014, 08:22:03 AM
'Aria' hates my speakers! I'm finding digital distortion early on, when the singer really cuts loose for a moment. Do you hear anything in this one?
Also, in 'Quadrivium', within the first few minutes, the first entry of the timpani hit gives me some distortion for a moment. What's up? These recordings are so wide open- they're the only recording that have ever given these (normal) speakers problems. And that guitar Donatoni disc on Strad. (track 2 right off the bat)
No issues sound-wise here on
Aria (Neos) or on
Quadrivium (Neos, DG).
It's interesting reading this discussion about Quadrivium because to me it sounds like obviously fun music, as enjoyable as anything I've ever heard, but I'm listening totally unalatically - just enjoying the tunes and the textures changing and the feelings.
Anyway, who's the best for Quadrivium? I'm listening all the time to Sinopoli, love it, but I wonder if there have been any very different ideas about how to play it. I also have downloaded a copy of Maderna playing it in a concert in 1971.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 05, 2014, 09:15:21 AM
It's interesting reading this discussion about Quadrivium because to me it sounds like obviously fun music, as enjoyable as anything I've ever heard, but I'm listening totally unalatically - just enjoying the tunes and the textures changing and the feelings.
Anyway, who's the best for Quadrivium? I'm listening all the time to Sinopoli, love it, but I wonder if there have been any very different ideas about how to play it. I also have downloaded a copy of Maderna playing it in a concert in 1971.
The one on Timpani is ten minutes shorter, but I was getting dizzy comparing- I did hear a lot of the same sections- and they seemed in order. Since it's so improvised sounding, maybe the ten minutes doesn't make music difference? Will check again, but I think they're pretty music the same music, the same way. Same goes for the other two pieces on the Sinopoli disc as compared to Tamayo. I think those are the three recordings of the piece, though there might be a fourth?
Quote from: snyprrr on July 06, 2014, 08:03:27 AM
The one on Timpani is ten minutes shorter, but I was getting dizzy comparing- I did hear a lot of the same sections- and they seemed in order. Since it's so improvised sounding, maybe the ten minutes doesn't make music difference? Will check again, but I think they're pretty music the same music, the same way. Same goes for the other two pieces on the Sinopoli disc as compared to Tamayo. I think those are the three recordings of the piece, though there might be a fourth?
This improvised quality seems to me a real strength. Quadrivium is music which sounds totally fresh all the time, and yet, in my opinion at least, it sounds coherent, not at all random or arbitrary, inevitable, natural flow of ideas.
Anyway, I think Quadrivium is a great piece of music. The only other piece I know by Maderna is the second quartet: I can't say I've ever heard a better serial quartet. So on the whole I feel very positive about Maderna. And I'd appreciate suggestions about other things to check out.
Quote from: Mandryka on August 13, 2014, 12:54:55 PM
This improvised quality seems to me a real strength. Quadrivium is music which sounds totally fresh all the time, and yet, in my opinion at least, it sounds coherent, not at all random or arbitrary, inevitable, natural flow of ideas.
I have not heard
Quadrivium, but I also like that "improvised quality" in some of Maderna's works. When I listened to Darmstadt Aural Documents Box 1 (https://neos-music.com/?language=english&page=output.php%3Ftemplate%3Denglish-album-details.php%26content%3DAlben/11060.php) for the first time, the spontaneous feeling of Maderna's works attracted me immediately. There is an improvisation-feel in the concertos but it is not that they sound arbitrary or cliché. It is as if the music is growing organically.
Four works of Maderna are included in the set. Maderna conducted all of them.
Concerto per pianoforte e orchestra (1959)
Konzert Nr. 1 für Oboe und Kammerensemble (1962/1963)
Dimensioni IV (1964)
Konzert Nr. 2 für Oboe und Orchester (1967)
Breaking out the Maderna:
1) 4/5 Volumes of the NEOS Cycle
2) Arditti/Montaigne disc
3) Holliger/Philips 3 Oboe Concertos
4) something else... somewhere??... oh yes!, the classic old DG.
I got 4 Volumes of that NEOS Cycle and promptly did-not-get-Maderna-at-all. I had enjoyed the DG disc for some time, and the Holliger, and believed the Violin Concerto to be some holy grail. But at the time, all those Stradivarius discs were quite expensive, and mixed up in a way that deflected interest. Then came that NEOS Cycle. Aftera long and hard bout of CDCDCD, I got everything except Vol.1, which had the earliest works. The first work on Vol.2 seems to close out Maderna's proto-development. So, onward...
This will be my third go through.
So far I've only run the Piano Concerto of 1959. The first time around, I was "expecting" the autumnal, nocturnal and improvisatory sounds I'd heard in the 3 Oboe Concertos.. What I recall is, I just did-not-want.
Yesterday I was in a free space and gladly put it in. This time around I was much more receptive. This PC may be one of the most experimental I've ever heard. It was written for Tudor, so- pling!- that's why I'm hearing string plucking, and all manner of Cagean sounds, all done a completely different source, Maderna: it's always interesting to hear another Composer's take on another's innovation. Maderna is more spare, separating each gesture with silence.
Silence seems to be my biggest beef with Maderna. With Maderna, you get everything at HIS pace. It seems a lot of his pieces take place in a cauldron, or vat, or tub... the indeterminacy. There's definitely a BigLebowski slacker feel to all Mature Maderna= fast music is only "outbursts"... short silences are the default, then solos, then groups, sections, and tuttis, all mixed up as if on whim...
Paging Mr. Segerstam???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
woooah :o
Anyhow!- at 20 minutes, the Piano Concerto is just the right length for really drawing out his vision. You'll think it's over a few times. The ending meanders into nothing. All is pure timbre.
I suppose the closest thing to describe would be Cage's PC, and Atlas E. Here we have the Italian version, if I may be so crass. However, I do hear here... perhaps it is Cage's technique "played" by a Catholic (and Comm.??) instead of a (whatever Cage thinks he was, lol()...? I think you have to consider that though- I'm not quite sure how it affects the organization
.
With Maderna 1956-73, from one piece to the next I'm not quite sure what I'm going to get, but it all has a certain feeling which, as you can read here, is really hard to pin down. He's certainly defied my expectations, and demands that I give him multiple chances.
His earlier stuff reminds me on Feldman's early "noisy" ohase, loud serialsmo. But, Mature Maderna sort of just IS. "Hey, it's me."
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
I suppose the lounging melodies would also seem "Italian"... and Bergian... wein...
Just look over this Post. Maderna sounds like this Post reads, lol!! :P
This bump makes me want to listen to some of his music, starting from one of my favorite pieces of his early years:
[asin]B002ZCWA0O[/asin]
Composizione n. 2 (1950)
It's just amazing how the tender melodic line of the Seikilos epitaph, utilized as "incipit"
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/Epitaph_of_Seikilos.tif/lossy-page1-1280px-Epitaph_of_Seikilos.tif.jpg)
grows in complexity throughout the course of the piece while the music always preserves its dreamy, lirical quality.
Quote from: snyprrr on February 11, 2017, 10:31:01 AM
Just look over this Post. Maderna sounds like this Post reads, lol!! :P
I think this is one of your best posts actually! The concerto sounds like what you say it sounds like. And I think what you say about late Maderna generally is interesting, I'll think about it. Thanks for mentioning the concerto, I hadn't heard it before.
In that concerto, the gestures sound all a bit random. A random mosaic of disconnected ideas.Got it now, it's like it's in movements, the Middle "slow" movement starting at about 6 minutes. This is an interesting piece!
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on February 14, 2017, 01:48:42 PM
This LP shocked me early last year:
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0003/516/MI0003516822.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
I know three recordings of quadrivium and that's probably the best - but I must say I think Maderna's 1971 recording is worth seeking out. The one I didn't like was on Neos, and I've just noticed there's one by Carlo Miotto which I'll try to hear later today.
Quote from: Mandryka on August 13, 2014, 12:54:55 PM
This improvised quality seems to me a real strength. Quadrivium is music which sounds totally fresh all the time, and yet, in my opinion at least, it sounds coherent, not at all random or arbitrary, inevitable, natural flow of ideas.
Anyway, I think Quadrivium is a great piece of music. The only other piece I know by Maderna is the second quartet: I can't say I've ever heard a better serial quartet. So on the whole I feel very positive about Maderna. And I'd appreciate suggestions about other things to check out.
QuadriviumBeen going back and forth between Sinopoli and Tamayo... "fun music"... ahhh.... I'm just not hearin' it... DG (36mins.) and NEOS (26mins.) and it almost all is starting to sound like mush to me, though I can barely make out the razor blade connections between the former, Tracked CD, and the latter, which seems an oblique mass of 26mins. straight.
really having problems with the seeming improvised quality, or sumptin
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on February 18, 2017, 02:20:22 PM
^^
https://youtu.be/YLV5DUu1zqw (https://youtu.be/YLV5DUu1zqw)
yea,... sounded just like the Tamayo... I think, had this been "written in stone", the conductor would conduct it that way, but, because it's so free, I feel that certain things are lost- in the intro, when the flutes finally come into the percussion melange, had that been strictly noted, it might have more of a bubbly bounce, but, because it's freer, we don't hear the strict "science",... we hear the human interpretation...
I dunno, I just can't handle "looseness"... sometimes I get the same way with Xenakis's strictly notated aleatoric sections, which, frankly, do have a certain improvisatory quality (like the middle section of 'Metastasis' or the whole of 'Achorripsis')-
actually, 'Achorripsis' sounds a lot the the "problems" I have with Maderna, BUT, in that particular piece, the "ennui" works for me- of course, it's a much shorter piece
maybe thaaat's the rub?
Australlung (is that right?)
Well, this is the "Big" piece, for female reciter/singer, tape, and orchestra...
again,... just.don't.like.or.want.
Here, again, the loose feeling is what gets to me... but all that pales in comparison to the recitation. Just can't stand recitation in music... and this does sound just a little tad touch of 60s pretentiousness. BAZ I could handle, AND ENJOY (Requiem), but here I just get another dollop of what doesn't work for me.
ahhhh... Maderna...
I was so happy with just the DG and the Philips oboe concertos, then I got this NEOS Cycle and I JUST DON'T GET IT...
I just can't stand written music with an improvised feel,... or something???....
I do like other works in the NEOS, but the big ones, 'Australlung', the Violin Concerto, Quadrivium,... eh,mm,uh,...
Don't worry- 'll keep trying- I mean, I paid bout $100 for them, so, hey, I BETTER get something out of them!!!
Aura (1972)
Again, sounds like mush to me. I have three recordings, and I struggle to, again, "get it"... Maderna's truly the most challenging Composer that I am personally encountering. The improv quality of what I'm hearing in a lot of the late stuff I just "won't" handle...
curious case...keep trying...
Death Laid An Egg (1968)
Maderna's score for this psychedelic Italian "horror/proto-Giallo" satire concerning the goings on at a chicken factory (!) is literally one of the hardest pills to swallow. It does certainly fit in the context of the film, and sounds nothing less than Morricone's Avant-Experimental bewilderment to the extreme, but, if just listened to, it can be supremely annoying.
However, it's all worth a peek for the lolz. They even create monster Perdue chickens (all breast, no head- hilarious and curiously... TRUE!!) that get "whacked". Bizarro stuff!!
...starring Gina Lollobridgetonowhere...
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on April 18, 2017, 04:47:09 PM
.......... ??? :-[
those NEOS disc presented a Composer I was totally not looking for. Now thayt I have him, I've had to "understand" him, and he's more complex than I had thought... he really does a lot of different stuff...
I've always loved the 3 Oboe Concertos (Philips; Holliger), and I've had that DG for a couple of decades... it was those NEOS discs that put me on my ear...
I know you're questioning: Maderna? most challenging? really? yea, mainly because I don't "like" what I'm hearing... his Segerstam like attitude of "ok, let's put the kitchen sink in"... I wasn't ready... too "loose"... I was used to such regimentation, and here comes Maderna making everything sound like a "jam session for composer/conductor"
Maderna said he wrote "conductor music"...??...
Yea, I don't really "love" what I've heard on the NEOS discs... I do "love" the oboes concertos... I don't know how much the exemplary Philips recording has to do with that.
I have three recordings of 'Aura'... it hasn't helped me like it that much better... I'm not saying Maderna is ... gulp...
AMORPHOUS
BUT, THAT IS ONE FACTOR THAT USUALLY mitigates against me appreciation of a Composer, that feeling of drifting ennui... though, Maderna isn't "depressed" sounding...
Cage + Maderna
Let me know how you go here...
My belated celebration for his centenary (he was born on the 21st of April 1920).
Now listening to the amazing Quartetto per archi in due tempi played by the Arditti
(https://img.discogs.com/HuVeG-QKubfhYrVBMOvEOcnn_lE=/fit-in/400x341/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-5957445-1407354777-9384.jpeg.jpg)
Oh, I missed that date. As a fan of Maderna (the composer and the conductor), I'll probably listen to his magnum opus, the Hyperion cycle, tonight.
(https://img.discogs.com/UNi8EQuCWpIokCPmlbTIPsOANyM=/fit-in/227x222/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-3624126-1337809186-8864.jpeg.jpg)
I don't think I've ever knowingly listened to Maderna—seems as good a time as any to start.
What are some key works? I see some talk about oboe concertos, a violin concerto, Quadrivium, Aura... anything else?
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 29, 2020, 03:38:28 AM
I don't think I've ever knowingly listened to Maderna—seems as good a time as any to start.
What are some key works? I see some talk about oboe concertos, a violin concerto, Quadrivium, Aura... anything else?
Quartet in 2 tempi
Cross-posted form the "Purchases Today" thread:
Quote from: ritter on April 04, 2022, 06:27:03 AM
... but I did get hold of two major additions to the bibliography on Bruno Maderna (which were published in 2020, coinciding with the centenary of the composer's birth):
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41TrRoLBXhL._SX353_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Mario Baroni's and Rosana Dalmonte's book is a "real" biography, rather than a musicological study. Very well received by the Italian press when it was released.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41UHaAJY81L._SY264_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_ML2_.jpg)
800+ pages of writings and fragments by, and interviews with, Maderna. So far, a cursory glance at some of the texts indicates that Maderna is a pleasure to read.
EDIT:And a major new release (cross-posted from the New Releases thread):
Quote from: ritter on April 06, 2022, 09:19:39 AM
Also coming in May, what looks like a major addition to the discography of Bruno Maderna:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71LoIDq6V7L._SX522_.jpg)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61BujGi7VsL._SX522_.jpg)
The selections on on this set appear to be different to those of the now hard to find Eötvös recording on Montaigne —which was actually made 10 years after this 1981 live recording now being released by Tactus—, but Hyperion was a work-in-progress that was constantly changing during the last decade or so of the composer's life.
Cross-posted from the WAYL2N thread:
Quote from: ritter on December 01, 2023, 12:51:41 PMSome Bruno Maderna tonight...
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71R0xupY7iL._SL1257_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71Qs2VA8QnL._SL1212_.jpg)
Arturo Tamayo's 5 CD traversal of Maderna's orchestral output with the Frankfurt RSO is an extraordinary tribute to this great composer. This specific CD has two lesser-known early works from the 1950s, while the later works would be incorporated in the Hyperion "constellation ".
Wonderful music!
What led me to listen to this CD is the arrival today of this book, just published in Italy:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51laUJE813L._SY522_.jpg)
The subtitle is "A Portrait in Many Voices". Valerio Tura has collected short tributes to Maderna by other composers, instrumental soloists, vocalists, etc.
Cross-posted from the WAYL2N thread:I tried to reconstruct what could (more or less) have been the
Hyperion - Orfeo dolente show that
Bruno Maderna gave in Bologna in 1968 (in a staging by
Virginio Puecher).
Maderna's
Hyperion is a paradigmatic work-in-progress, the composer having worked on it from 1964 to around 1970. Not only the components changed from one version to the other, but also the individual movements suffered significant alterations. Even the "type" of work changed: initially, it was labelled "
lirica in forma de spettacolo", than it had other staged versions (combined with "external" material —
Hyperion en het Gewald in Brussels in 1968, the superposition with
Domenico Belli's
Orfeo dolente later that year), and finally versions titled
Suite aus der Oper Hyperion (i.e., with no staging contemplated).
The 1968 version alternated the 5 intermezzi of
Domenico Belli's
Orfeo dolente, one of the first surviving examples of operatic music (the intermezzi were performed between the acts of
Torquato Tasso's play
Aminta) with music by
Maderna.
Maderna arranged
Belli's music for modern orchestra, but AFAIK there is no recording of that arrangement.
As for the music by
Maderna,
Giordano Ferrari (in his essay
Hyperion, les chemins du poète) mentions that the Bologna version included two electronic pieces (
Le Rire from 1960, and
Dimensioni II from 1962 —also known as
Invenzione su una voce, and based on
Cathy Berberian's voice), and the two pieces that had constituted the very first version of
Hyperion in 1964 and would remain central to most versions of the work. These are the purely orchestral
Dimensioni III and
Aria for soprano and orchestra (both works have a prominent line for solo flute or piccolo, an instrument that also plays a dramatic role in the whole work).
What I could not find anywhere is in what order the different components of this version were performed (although
Tiziano Popoli, in his essay on
Le Rire, says that this was placed at or near the beginning of the evening).
Since the
Belli intermezzi are five, and the original
Maderna works only four, I decided to start with the first intermezzo, and finish with
Aria (which was the final piece of the original version of
Hyperion, and seems like a natural conclusion to the show). The order, then, is:
- Intermezzo 1 from Orfeo dolente
- Le Rire
- Intermezzo 2
- Dimensione III
- Intermezzo 3
- Dimensione II (Invenzione su una voce)
- Intermezzo 4 and 5
- Aria
I played the original
Maderna works in the order that are listed by
Ferrari in his essay.
Well, and what does all this add up too? IMHO, a very interesting combination. The juxtaposition of early 17th century Florentine proto-operatic music with late 20th century serial and electronic pieces for a plotless "opera" is quite fascinating. The first three of
Belli's intermezzi are very slow and plangent, and alternate well with the electronic
Le Rire (which, truth be said, is rather unattractive to me) and the dramatic orchestral
Dimensioni III. The last two intermezzi from
Orfeo dolente are livelier in tone, and
Aria (on
Maderna at the top of his game IMHO) brings everything to a climactic close.
I didn't know
Domenico Belli's music, and was very impressed by it. And it blends very well with
Maderna's ultra-modern idiom (unsurprisingly so, as
Maderna also displayed the greatest love for "ancient" music).
A speculative reconstruction of an event that seems not to have been that well documented, but a very fulfilling listening experience.
The recordings I used in this experiment are:
For
Belli's
Orfeo dolente:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81SmzeepyNL._SL1500_.jpg)
For the electronic pieces by
Maderna:
(https://i.discogs.com/W4fBuARU6D2LKiLRN3XVvv6UEz-vBIkoD0dpmm27qWw/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:598/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTI4NDk2/NC0xMjQ1NDQ0ODY4/LmpwZWc.jpeg)
For
Dimensioni III and
Aria:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71zes9Ymx2L._SL1102_.jpg)
This (relatively) recent publication by the Paul Sacher Foundation in Basle is worth mentioning here:
(https://www.paul-sacher-stiftung.ch/dam/de/forschung-und-publikationen/studien-und-quelleditionen/2022-Maderna-cover_front-150.jpg)
The Foundation's blurb:
"Utopia, Innovation, Tradition: Bruno Maderna's Cosmos is the first collection of essays in English dedicated to one of the most multifaceted and interesting musical personalities of the 20th century: Bruno Maderna (1920–1973), a main protagonist in the development of new music after World War II.
The 15 essays cover the most important aspects of Bruno Maderna's peculiar compositional approach. Thanks to innovative methodological perspectives based mainly on the study of archival materials, they arrive at new and often completely unexpected interpretations. The book also contains a newly revised chronology of Maderna's own works and transcriptions of the works of others."
The contents of the 467 page tome can be found here (https://www.paul-sacher-stiftung.ch/dam/jcr:d1d840fb-3c63-472d-91db-6b879643dc2a/2022%20Maderna%20title-content.pdf).
I've just ordered my copy (it was being offered at a discounted price on Amazon.es).