Bill's recent post (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,97.msg7504.html#msg7504) on the M&A set with wartime Beethoven recordings reminded me that we could use a Furtwangler thread again! :)
Again - because we had a very nice thread on the old forum: Furtwängler recommendations (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,11826.0.html)
What are your favourite Furtwängler recordings?
Q
Melodiya has just issued a Furtwängler Edition of the wartime recordings.
Might be interesting! :)
I'm going to try some myself but would appreciate any comments, especially on the sound.
Q
Some highlights:
(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/1001556.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/2641670.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/5101438.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/8961433.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/1001565.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/2842190.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/4281471.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/9381721.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/9581491.jpg)
Bruckner Symphony 9 (Berlin 1944.....half the audience was Russian hahaha)
Actually this is, together with Gunter Wand's recording, the greatest ever recording of this symphony. It has a unique doom-laden atmosphere which, no doubt, reflects the circumstances of its performance.
Second that.
Also recommend the "headless corpse" Bruckner #6. Had the 1st movement survived, this would also undoubtedly be one of the finest recordings extant. Heartbreaking both for what it is and what it is not.
Quote from: Que on April 20, 2007, 12:01:29 AM
Melodiya has just issued a Furtwängler Edition of the wartime recordings.
Might be interesting! :)
I'm going to try some myself but would appreciate any comments, especially on the sound.
I'd also be most interested in comments on the sound. I think pretty well all these recordings are available via other labels, and the Melodyas are, somewhat optimisticly, at full price.
QuoteQue
What are your favourite Furtwängler recordings?
Furtwängler's widow, Elisabeth, always said that his best recordings were those made during the war.
I agree, regarding Beethoven's 5th and 7th Symphonies, with the BPO (1942 or 1943), Bruckner's 5th (BPO, 1942) and 9th (BPO, 1944).
On the other hand I prefer Beethoven's 6th with the VPO in 1952, the 9th in Bayreuth (1951) and regarding operas, the Ring in the Scala (1950) and Tristan und Isolde with Flagstad and Suthaus with the Philharmonia.
But my absolute favorite, is the version of Schumann's Manfred Overture with the BPO, incredibly intense, almost in trance. There is another version with the VPO, but very inferior.
I'm a "power and speed" kinda guy, so it won't come as any surprise that most of my Furtwangler choices are performances with the Berlin rather than with Vienna. And I often tend toward the drive (near-mania?) of the wartime stuff versus the smoother and more contemplative approach of the years just before his death.
His 1942 Beethoven 9th (the famous March version, not the April "Hitler's birthday" performance) still astounds in the emotional response it elicits and the power it expresses. The 1944 Bruckner 9th, as already noted, offers similar qualities. The Beethoven Eroica of Dec. 8, 1952 is a great one. In concerti, the early '50s Emperor concerto with E. Fischer is more straightforward, with far lower emotional amplitude than some of my choices, but it's a wonderfully fulfilling presentation of the music IMO. And the Beethoven violin concerto with Rohr is very special. Furtwangler's takes on the Schubert 9th--wartime and early '50s versions--are quite different but both compelling. Beyond these, much of his wartime and early postwar Brahms could be added to my list. So would what little Schumann he left us. Wouldn't want to be without any of these.
Dirk
Quote from: dirkronk on April 20, 2007, 04:58:19 AM
The Beethoven Eroica of Dec. 8, 1952 is a great one.
Second that, too.
Not always that easy to find - last I saw, it was available only as part of a 4-disk Tahra set - but well worth it for arguably his finest Eroica.
Apart from what's been mentioned, his Schubert 9 on DG is unsurpassed, as is the Good Friday Spell from Parsifal.
Don't miss his performance of Bruckner symphony No. 8 on Testament!
Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on April 20, 2007, 12:34:09 PM
Don't miss his performance of Bruckner symphony No. 8 on Testament!
I prefer the next day performance (15.03) in front of audience, more noisy but more fluid and the '44 VPO one to that one (by a hair).
I like Furtwangler a great deal, but I don't listen much to his Bruckner. Its too fast; the chromaticism isn't given enough space.
I much prefer his Beethoven, and would recommend the M&A Wartime recording, its great!
Quote from: Michel on April 20, 2007, 02:37:34 PM
I like Furtwangler a great deal, but I don't listen much to his Bruckner. Its too fast; the chromaticism isn't given enough space.
It's easy to fall into that way of thinking, yet what always strikes me about his Bruckner #9 every time I hear it, is the amazing
delicacy with which he handles it - particularly (of course) in the Adagio. Nothing broad-brush about his approach to this one.
Quote from: dirkronk on April 20, 2007, 04:58:19 AM
....His 1942 Beethoven 9th (the famous March version, not the April "Hitler's birthday" performance) still astounds in the emotional response it elicits and the power it expresses....
Dirk
Please excuse the "cropping" of your post Dirk. The 9th you mentioned, from March of '42, is the one that is on the Music and Arts set for those that care to, or did not know. :)
Quote from: Captain Haddock on April 20, 2007, 12:13:14 AM
Bruckner Symphony 9 (Berlin 1944.....half the audience was Russian hahaha)
The first few sentences in this article will prove your above statement to be incorrect.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/berlin.htm
Quote from: Harry Collier on April 20, 2007, 02:54:41 AM
I'd also be most interested in comments on the sound. I think pretty well all these recordings are available via other labels, and the Melodiyas are, somewhat optimisticly, at full price.
Yes, all these recordings are already available on other labels. But considering the fact that Melodiya had access to the original recordings, I don't rule out the possibility that they come up with the best sound of all.
The French Furtwängler Society and Opus Kura both prefer Melodiya LP's as source for the wartime recordings. And with good reason. I have compared for the Bruckner V transfers by DG, M&A, Arkadia and Opus Kura. The Opus Kura came ahead - leaving the others far behind.
BTW, the issues in Melodiya's Furtwängler Edition are available at €13 (
mid price).
Q
Quote from: uffeviking on April 20, 2007, 08:06:05 PM
The first few sentences in this article will prove your above statement to be incorrect.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/berlin.htm
Thanks,I was just being flippant :)
Quote from: Choo Choo on April 20, 2007, 05:33:18 AM
Second that, too.
Not always that easy to find - last I saw, it was available only as part of a 4-disk Tahra set - but well worth it for arguably his finest Eroica.
Listening to it this morning at a very high volume. WOW! Has to be one of the best Eroica's out there. Brilliant
:)
Isn't it just. In fact I'm going to play it right now.
Quote from: SimonGodders on April 21, 2007, 01:37:31 AM
Listening to it this morning at a very high volume. WOW! Has to be one of the best Eroica's out there. Brilliant
:)
Hey, Simon!
Which recording is this? Link please? :)
Quote from: George on April 21, 2007, 12:32:38 PM
Hey, Simon!
Which recording is this? Link please? :)
This, I believe
Quote from: Choo Choo on April 21, 2007, 02:24:23 AM
Following a discussion on another thread, I am starting the day with this:
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/2173XGVS10L._AA130_.jpg)
- specifically, the 8/12/52 Eroica
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Furtwängler-Dirige-Beethoven-Ludwig-van/dp/B000003O7G (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Furtw%C3%A4ngler-Dirige-Beethoven-Ludwig-van/dp/B000003O7G)
Quote from: George on April 21, 2007, 12:32:38 PM
Hey, Simon!
Which recording is this? Link please? :)
Hi George, this is the one I have:
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/31KC9HKN14L._SS500_.jpg)
http://www.amazon.com/Furtwangler-Legendary-Ludwig-van-Beethoven/dp/B000059M3J
One of the 'jewels' of my collection...
Thanks Simon!
Any other OOP stuff you wanna brag about? ::)
;) ;D
:P
Cheeky!
Probably still available from the French outlets, Amazon, FNAC etc.
I ordered it from here - the only place I found it. I think you have to act quick. It has got glowing recommendations from several persons.
http://www.alapage.com/-/Fiche/MusiqueClassique/512156/wilhelm-furtwangler-legendaires-concerts-d-apres-guerre-symphonie-n-1-symphonies-n-3-5-6-et-9-johanne-brahms-ludwig-van-beethoven-johannes-brahms-orchestre-romantique.htm?fulltext=beethoven%20tahra%20furtwangler&id=123491177193533&donnee_appel=ALAPAGE
For what they are worth, here are some reference links for recordings:
http://web.archive.org/web/20030608095829/www.fornax.hu/wfsh/disco.html
This next one supposedly has updates(?) and seems to be "home-made", if you will:
http://my.dreamwiz.com/fischer/Furtwangler/furtwangler-discography.htm
Quote from: rubio on April 21, 2007, 02:16:00 PM
I ordered it from here - the only place I found it. I think you have to act quick. It has got glowing recommendations from several persons.
(http://www.alapage.com/resize.php?ref=512156&type=2&w=250&h=250&r=0.4&s=0.6)
I believe that set has the same recordings as Simon's - which is in a book format.
Neatly assembles all the major post-war recordings, including the '54 Luzern 9th - in either format strongly recommended.
Q
P.S. I'm glad it's still available for those interested -
link to Amazon.fr (http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B000067G3F/ref=olp_product_details/402-3391887-5687321?ie=UTF8&seller=)
Quote from: Que on April 21, 2007, 10:20:54 PM
I believe that set has the same recordings as Simon's - which is in a book format.
Neatly assembles all the major post-war recordings, including the '54 Luzern 9th - in either format strongly recommended.
Q
Just to clarify, I have the standard 4CD box set, not the 'book' type set. Quite glad at this though as I'ld doubt it would fit into my CD storage! It is however an excellent set.
Quote from: rubio on April 28, 2007, 09:13:56 AM
I listened to Bruckner's Symphony 9 from the below set today (from 1944). It's a really intense and driven performance. Still I prefer Giulini in this symphony; especially due to the inferior sound of the Furtwangler account. I also think Furtwangler's war-time Bruckner 5 (on Opus Kura) is preferable both performance-wise and sound-wise.
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/316S8SSMFEL._AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: Que on April 28, 2007, 09:29:26 AM
I think it's primarily the sound that is the problem with the 9th - I love the performance.
The sound quality should be comparable with that of the 5th (same recording technique, only two years later).
If Opus Kura comes up with a transfer of the 9th, I expect the same improvement in sound as with the 5th. The 5th sounded on DG as dim and dull as the 9th! :)
The French Furtwängler Society already issued a transfer of the 9th from Melodiya LP's - like Opus Kura did with the 5th - but I haven't heard it (you first have to join! ;D). Maybe Melodiya comes up with a new transfer too!
Anyway, I agree the sound on DG leaves much to be desired.
Q
Quote from: rubio on April 28, 2007, 09:33:47 AM
Yeah, it would really be nice if this performance would come with the same sound as the Bruckner 5th. Have you heard some of the Furtwangler war-time Beethoven on Opus Kura? Have they received the same degree of improvement from the DG/Music&Arts recordings?
I have of the wartime recordings this one on Opus Kura.
Because I avoided duplication, I can't compare with other labels.
I can however confirm that the sound quality is comparable with (as good as) the Bruckner 5th. The LvB 4th having to my surprise - being a broadcast recording - even better sound than the 7th. BTW Melodiya reissued many of the wartime recordings - see the start of this thread.
(http://www.cdconnection.com/covers/928856.jpg)
Q
Quote from: val on April 20, 2007, 03:54:48 AM
On the other hand I prefer Beethoven's 6th with the VPO in 1952, the 9th in Bayreuth (1951) and regarding operas, the Ring in the Scala (1950) and Tristan und Isolde with Flagstad and Suthaus with the Philharmonia.
Val well said, that Tristan und Isolde recording on EMI Great Recordings of the Century is to die for and deserves a second mention. Have not heard the Ring in the Scala (1950) although I have the Ring from RAI 1953 which is really enjoyable despite the less than stellar sound. Furwangler is a brillaint Wagner conductor. Somebody on the old GMG forum pointed out that out of FURTWANGLER you can extract FUR WAGNER (for Wagner.....interesting)
marvin
Quote from: Que on April 21, 2007, 10:20:54 PM
I believe that set has the same recordings as Simon's - which is in a book format.
Neatly assembles all the major post-war recordings, including the '54 Luzern 9th - in either format strongly recommended.
Q
P.S. I'm glad it's still available for those interested - link to Amazon.fr (http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B000067G3F/ref=olp_product_details/402-3391887-5687321?ie=UTF8&seller=)
(http://www.tahra.com/img/couv/1067.jpg)
Just a heads up for those interested ...
This set is now available at amazon.fr for under 20 euros (it used to be about 30).
Que's link will get you there :).
LvB 5th - '47 BPO (Tahra) It's similar to the wartime recording, but better recorded. Very different is the '54 5th with the BPO (Tahra). Overall timings are slower, but the tempos within movements are much more varied, which is one of the great things about Furtwangler in general. Powerful, grand, and great sound.
LvB 6th - '52 VPO (EMI - studio) One of my desert island discs. This has to be the slowest 1st movement ever (11:50 without repeat), but it works beautifully. The finale is still on the quick side, but this soars, where the earlier live versions sound too hectic. A Pastoral to just get lost in.
LvB 9th - If you can handle the lousy sound, the '42 performance is pretty amazing - incredibly intense, almost angry, as if WF were throwing it at the audience. Like the '54 5th, the '54 Lucerne 9th has power, grandeur, and sounds great on Tahra.
LvB - Coriolan Overture (BPO '43 on M&A) Is there a slower performance on record? Furtwangler could drive hard with the best, but he didn't need speed to rattle the rafters. One of the best examples ever of the difference a great conductor can make.
Brahms Sym #1 - A tossup between BPO '52 (DG) and the '51 (NDR Hamburg - in the M&A set.) All of WF's Brahms is great. Makes me wonder how conductors over the years have forgotten how to do Brahms.
Schubert Sym #9 - BPO '42 (DG) The sound is rough going, but this live version blows away the famous studio recording. By any reasonable standard, the studio is an excellent performance, but it sounds far too straight compared to the live one - not Furtwangler'ish enough.
Schumann Sym #4
I think I'll make it Furtwangler Brahms and Schubert for the next couple days commute.
Cheers - Chris
My experience of his recordings is more limited but you don't have to listen for long to understand this is indeed one of the most phenomenal musicians there's ever been. I recently had Die Harmonie der Welt symphony, after the opera, by Hindemith (the composer he rather unfortunately championed over other better ones) and 'such visionary splendours' as the Grove article says is certainly what he provides.
He finds colour, meaning and a beautiful iridescent passion in passages that would never have been revealed: an inward and powerfully artistic world, shared indeed by many conductors of the period, that's simply beyond reproduction in the present postmodern climate of surface experience.
Beethoven, Symphonies 1 [w.Stuttgart Radio Orchestra. Rec. 3/30/54], 2 [w.Vienna Philharmonic. Rec. 10/3/48], 3 [w.Berlin Philharmonic. Rec. 12/8/52], 4 [w.Vienna Philharmonic. Rec. 9/4/53], 5, 6 [both w.Berlin Philharmonic. Rec. 5/23/54], 7, 8 [both w.Vienna Philharmonic. Rec. 8/30/54] & 9 [w.Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, Elsa Cavelti, Ernst Haefliger, Otto Edelmann, Lucerne Festival Chorus & Philharmonia Orchestra. Rec. 8/22/54]. (All cond. Furtwangler)
Add to cart | Price: $ 19.95 | 5 in set. | Country: GERMANY | D/A code: Mono | Code: ARPCD 0214 | BRO Code: 133349 | Label: ARCHIPEL
Genre: Symphonies
FWIW, this showed up a couple of days ago at Berkshire. You'll note that it has the Eroica that I and others recommended earlier in this thread, though I have NOT heard this transfer (I have it on Tahra). Also, while I think I recognize some of the other performances (the description of the 9th looks like the famous '54 Lucerne version, same soloists anyway...and I'm pretty sure I have the 5th & 6th), I'm not sure about them all and I'm not at home to go through my collection to check and listen. Thus I cannot give a blanket recommendation to this set. Still, look at the price.
So...does anyone already have this particular set...and would you please comment on the quality of the other performances and of all the transfers? If they're decent at all, this might be a nice set to augment the wartime performances.
Just a thought.
Dirk
Hello Dirk,
Besides the Eroica you mention, the Lucerne 9th is the same recording date as Tahra Furt 1003, and the 5th and 6th are the same dates as Tahra Furt 1009. The sound quality is outstanding (considering the sources) on all of them. The 4th appears in another Tahra set that I don't have.
I can't comment on the other performances, but I wonder if "Archipel" is legit. There are lots of pirates out there (often available from Berkshire), but I'm careful about buying from labels that actually do the restoration work.
Can anyone comment on Archipel?
cg
Quote from: chrisg on May 12, 2007, 09:59:44 AM
I can't comment on the other performances, but I wonder if "Archipel" is legit. There are lots of pirates out there (often available from Berkshire), but I'm careful about buying from labels that actually do the restoration work.
Can anyone comment on Archipel?
cg
They are a pirate label. I have one of their CD's (along with an original recording) and it appears that they added in more noise (tape hiss) and reduced some of the fullness in the piano sound in their "digital restoration." I would only use them as a last resort. :-\
I already had Furtwängler's "En Saga" by Sibelius on the Italian pirate label "Grammofono" and hoped for a better transfer on Melodiya.
This Melodiya issue is an answer to all my wishes. Of course it's better than the Italian crap, but there's more.
For Wartime recordings I preferred to date the transfers Opus Kura made of Melodiya LP's.
But this is even better: very good transfers, not overtly filtered and I hear everything: tape hiss, audience sounds (coughing) and ALL of what matters - the music.
I don't know what the heck the Russians did when they "returned" the wartime tapes to Germany, but this is sound quality - clarity, detail and naturalness - people at Deutsche Grammophon can only dream of!
Enough of that - the music. Well, I already knew "En Saga" and this performance is one of the few most stunning, breathtaking and wildest pieces of music I've ever heard. I mean: you'd wish somebody had tied Furtwängler onto a chair until he had recorded every note of Sibelius written for orchestra.
The violin concerto affirms Furtwängler's feeling for Sibelius. I admire Kulenkampff and I was pleasantly surprised by this first tape recording I've heard by him - I only knew 78 rpm's. He has a much fuller tone on this, and you hear him really digging into the strings, producing a very "grounded" sound. Old fashioned playing: lots of vibrato and portamenti. Wonderful performance.
Q
(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/7571437.jpg)
So which are the transfers we want from the war?
Quote from: dirkronk on May 10, 2007, 03:18:39 PM
7, 8 [both w.Vienna Philharmonic. Rec. 8/30/54]........
...and would you please comment on the quality of the other performances and of all the transfers? If they're decent at all, this might be a nice set to augment the wartime performances.
Just a thought.
Dirk
7th and 8th are from Furtwangler's last Salzburg concert. They were/are available on Orfeo, both on single disc or with added Grosse Fugue (which was the remainder of the concert) in Orfeo's Furtwangler in Salzburg Box. I haven't listened to them recently but IIRC they are very good but I do prefer other 7ths to this one which sounds bit tired, I seem to recall liking 8th more and again it ain't light and airy affair but surely beats shoddy Stockholm account on EMI and we aren't really spoiled for choices when it comes to Furtwangler's 8th (I'm aware of only one more, in one of those DG boxes, which I haven't heard). What is exceptional on Orfeo is the sound quality which is one of the best ever given to Furtwangler (somewhat ironic). So if Archipel directly nicked Orfeo transfers without tampering it should be ok.
Quote from: Que on May 17, 2007, 10:30:10 AM
I already had Furtwängler's "En Saga" by Sibelius on the Italian pirate label "Grammofono" and hoped for a better transfer on Melodiya.
This Melodiya issue is an answer to all my wishes. Of course it's better than the Italian crap, but there's more.
For Wartime recordings I preferred to date the transfers Opus Kura made of Melodiya LP's.
But this is even better: very good transfers, not overtly filtered and I hear everything: tape hiss, audience sounds (coughing) and ALL of what matters - the music.
I don't know what the heck the Russians did when they "returned" the wartime tapes to Germany, but this is sound quality - clarity, detail and naturalness - people at Deutsche Grammophon can only dream of!
Enough of that - the music. Well, I already knew "En Saga" and this performance is one of the few most stunning, breathtaking and wildest pieces of music I've ever heard. I mean: you'd wish somebody had tied Furtwängler onto a chair until he had recorded every note of Sibelius written for orchestra.
The violin concerto affirms Furtwängler's feeling for Sibelius. I admire Kulenkampff and I was pleasantly surprised by this first tape recording I've heard by him - I only knew 78 rpm's. He has a much fuller tone on this, and you hear him really digging into the strings, producing a very "grounded" sound. Old fashioned playing: lots of vibrato and portamenti. Wonderful performance.
Q
(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/7571437.jpg)
Thanks for taking the plunge! And for your comments, will have to get hold of some now...
Cheers Que
:)
Get all (most) of my Russian CD's here:
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Rare-Russian-Records_W0QQsspagenameZL2QQtZkm
Victor's great, but be warned, usually take a month to arrive!
Quote from: Que link=topic=415.msg7928#msg7928 date=1177141711
BTW, the issues in Melodiya's Furtwängler Edition are available at €13 (i]mid price[/i]).
Q
Wish I'd seen this before; I've just ordered one from MDT where they are £13 each (full price). Shucks! Who is selling at €13 (in case I decide on buying more after my test listen)?
Quote from: Que on May 17, 2007, 10:30:10 AM
The violin concerto affirms Furtwängler's feeling for Sibelius. I admire Kulenkampff and I was pleasantly surprised by this first tape recording I've heard by him - I only knew 78 rpm's. He has a much fuller tone on this, and you hear him really digging into the strings, producing a very "grounded" sound. Old fashioned playing: lots of vibrato and portamenti. Wonderful performance.
Well, on the basis of this, I've ordered a copy. Hope it lives up to expectations. Poor old Kulenkampff has suffered from a poor transfer history.
Quote from: Harry Collier on May 18, 2007, 05:19:15 AM
Wish I'd seen this before; I've just ordered one from MDT where they are £13 each (full price). Shucks! Who is selling at €13 (in case I decide on buying more after my test listen)?
Harry, you can get it for that price (€13) at
jpc (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/home/-/lang/en/currency/GBP).
£13 is indeed rather expensive - if I have my currency rates straight - that's a difference of 46%.
Quote from: Harry Collier on May 18, 2007, 05:21:58 AM
Well, on the basis of this, I've ordered a copy. Hope it lives up to expectations. Poor old Kulenkampff has suffered from a poor transfer history.
Hope you'll like it! :)
Q
Bunny alerted me to this great site:
http://www.furtwangler.net/start.html (http://www.furtwangler.net/start.html)
Perhaps we can refrence it to begin a discussion of this great conductor. 8)
This is what is contained within:
You are new to Furtwängler and you are looking for essential information ? We have made a short selection of 1 anecdote and 3 set of key documents that we think are a priority for you. Follow the guide!
Did you know?
CDs are 75 minutes long. Why so? One of Sony's Vice-President, Norio Ohga, wished this new format could host the Ninth Symphony conducted by Wilhelm Furtwängler, the longest version which is lasting 74 minutes (see the Bayreuth 1951 recording, produced by Walter Legge and published by EMI)*. The Japanese company imposed this choice at the beginning of the 80's on Philips, co-owner of the patents on the compact disc.
* in "Where have all the good times gone ? Louis Barfe, 2004. From Libération, 2 déc. 2004, see (in French)...
His life
Furtwängler was born on 26th January 1886 in Berlin and was deceased on 30th November 1954 in Baden-Baden. In between, the course of his life comprised a succession of episodes in which his personal desires vied with often tragic world events, contributing to make him a legendary conductor of the XXth century.
Furtwängler, a musical mystery by Stephane Topakian, 1994 (RTF file, 5 pages, 0,08 Mo)
A selection of portraits, from his childhood to his death. See...
His art of conducting
The Furtwänglerian art of conducting: a panorama. From the records released by the SWF, Felix Matus-Echaiz selects significant excerpt and help us understand why music lovers and musicians are still fascinated today by Furtwängler artistry. Listen...
Our guide of his best recordings
The French Wilhelm Furtwängler Society proposes a selection of the essential recordings to be introduced to the art of the conductor. Enthusiasts are probably right to think that this selection is more a starting point than anything exhaustive!
I thought this was cool:
CDs are 75 minutes long. Why so? One of Sony's Vice-President, Norio Ohga, wished this new format could host the Ninth Symphony conducted by Wilhelm Furtwängler, the longest version which is lasting 74 minutes (see the Bayreuth 1951 recording, produced by Walter Legge and published by EMI)*. The Japanese company imposed this choice at the beginning of the 80's on Philips, co-owner of the patents on the compact disc.
* in "Where have all the good times gone ? Louis Barfe, 2004. From Libération, 2 déc. 2004, see (in French)...
:)
Quote from: George on June 09, 2007, 05:14:06 PM
I thought this was cool:
CDs are 75 minutes long. Why so? One of Sony's Vice-President, Norio Ohga, wished this new format could host the Ninth Symphony conducted by Wilhelm Furtwängler, the longest version which is lasting 74 minutes (see the Bayreuth 1951 recording, produced by Walter Legge and published by EMI)*. The Japanese company imposed this choice at the beginning of the 80's on Philips, co-owner of the patents on the compact disc.
* in "Where have all the good times gone ? Louis Barfe, 2004. From Libération, 2 déc. 2004, see (in French)...
:)
George, I seem to recall a similar tale involving the decision to set the length of a CD at 75 minutes which involved Herbert von Karajan and DG. Wonder who's tale it really is. :)
Quote from: Steve on June 09, 2007, 05:57:26 PM
George, I seem to recall a similar tale involving the decision to set the length of a CD at 75 minutes which involved Herbert von Karajan and DG. Wonder who's tale it really is. :)
Well considering that HvK takes only 67 minutes on both his '63 and his '77.... ::)
Is Furtwangler the most over-rated conductor that ever lived?
Ordered this one today:
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41WM50TV39L._SS500_.jpg)
I've read some incredible things about this Pathetique and since it's one of my very favorite symphonies I had to try it. :)
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on June 09, 2007, 07:58:12 PM
Is Furtwangler the most over-rated conductor that ever lived?
Well, it's the whole 'divide' thing, with partisan camps nestled on either side of the debate.
During Furtwängler's lifetime it was the old Furtwängler/Toscanini debate. Legions swore by their favorite.
Today I guess it's not much different.
Overrated, though? Only if you reside in the camp that says so, I suppose...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
George, it's an interesting thread you started, but how about using the same thread started some time ago? Gives the entire subject better cohesion. I leave it up to you, if you want to have your very own Furtwängler thread, to make it Topic No. 30 for our record, so be it. Beware of duplications though!
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,415.0.html
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on June 09, 2007, 07:58:12 PM
Is Furtwängler the most over-rated conductor that ever lived?
Probably not. His Wagner and Beethoven make up for the material that he didn't do so well. I don't think, though, that he was a conductor for all seasons: he thrived in the central Germanic repertoire. There is a 1943
Meistersinger from Bayreuth (Furtwängler and Abendroth shared the performances that year) that has less-than-perfect sound and some
lacunae. However, it is possible to hear his way with Wagner, and see that he "got" the Master. That record has its own, unique, issues that we'll leave alone for the moment. His Beethoven, especially the 1942 Berlin performance of the 9th, is the stuff of legend. There are other cases where he clearly didn't get the material and made a mess of it. His Haydn 88th, for example: I'm not sure if I like it. It doesn't seem very Haydnesque. It depends on how much you like his interpretative style and how well you think he does in his repertoire.
Still, I could think of three conductors more overrated than Furtwängler.
Quote from: donwyn on June 09, 2007, 08:30:41 PM
Well, it's the whole 'divide' thing, with partisan camps nestled on either side of the debate.
During Furtwängler's lifetime it was the old Furtwängler/Toscanini debate. Legions swore by their favorite.
Today I guess it's not much different.
Overrated, though? Only if you reside in the camp that says so, I suppose...
A fair appraisal of the overall situation, I warrant.
Quote from: George on June 09, 2007, 07:50:33 PM
Well considering that HvK takes only 67 minutes on both his '63 and his '77.... ::)
"Karajan played an important role in the development of the original compact disc digital audio format. He championed this new consumer playback technology, lent his prestige to it, and appeared at the first press conference announcing the format. Early CD prototypes had a play time limited to sixty minutes. It is often asserted that the decision to extend the maximum playing time of the compact disc to its standard of seventy-four minutes was achieved in order to adequately accommodate Beethoven's Ninth Symphony."
Quote from: Steve on June 09, 2007, 08:48:16 PM
"Karajan played an important role in the development of the original compact disc digital audio format. He championed this new consumer playback technology, lent his prestige to it, and appeared at the first press conference announcing the format. Early CD prototypes had a play time limited to sixty minutes. It is often asserted that the decision to extend the maximum playing time of the compact disc to its standard of seventy-four minutes was achieved in order to adequately accommodate Beethoven's Ninth Symphony."
I agree with every word, since it doesn't assert that it was Karajan's 9th that determined the length of a CD. It says to accomodate
LvB's 9th, not Karajan's 9th. Like I said, Karajan's 9th wasn't ever that long, so the logic doesn't seem to make sense. :-\
If CD's were 70 minutes, then I would be more inclined to say that it was Karajan's 9th that determined the length of a CD. :)
Quote from: donwyn on June 09, 2007, 08:30:41 PM
Well, it's the whole 'divide' thing, with partisan camps nestled on either side of the debate.
During Furtwängler's lifetime it was the old Furtwängler/Toscanini debate. Legions swore by their favorite.
Today I guess it's not much different.
I must be a wierdo. I enjoy both conductors' work. ::)
Quote from: George on June 09, 2007, 09:03:23 PM
I agree with every word, since it doesn't assert that it was Karajan's 9th that determined the length of a CD. It says to accomodate LvB's 9th, not Karajan's 9th. Like I said, Karajan's 9th wasn't ever that long, so the logic doesn't seem to make sense. :-\
If CD's were 70 minutes, then I would be more inclined to say that it was Karajan's 9th that determined the length of a CD. :)
Correct George, the LvB 9th was at issue and one of Furtwängler's had the longest duration in the official catalogue (the EMI '51 Bayreuth), so his recording determined the standard.
Q
Quote from: Que on June 09, 2007, 09:27:51 PM
Correct George, the LvB 9th was at issue and one of Furtwängler's had the longest durationin the official catalogue (the EMI '51 Bayreuth), so his recording determined the standard.
And yes - please merge the two threads!
Q
Good idea. :)
Quote from: George on June 09, 2007, 09:05:54 PM
I must be a wierdo. I enjoy both conductors' work. ::)
I do as well, big fan of both and can see the merits in both their artistry.
But false dichotomies are such fun! ;)
Could I have some input about the list of recommended recordings on the Furtwangler Society site? Do you agree with their choices? I've posted it below:
The selection hereunder is evidently subjective. In several cases the criterion of availability has excluded more significant versions. When several versions are suggested they are proposed in a decreasing order of preference. It is usually preferable to choose the performances dating from 1940-45 which are particularly impressive. In 2003, DG has reissued its stock of boxed sets of 10 CDs devoted to this period (now 9 CDs) but without doing any remastering. Same happened for their recent 6 CD boxes (2003 and 2004).
When we have different major recordings of a single work, we quote all of them. Those for which we have a slight preference for are being listed first.
The records released by the Wilhelm Furtwängler Society (SWF), the Wilhelm Furtwängler Gesellschaft (WFG), the Wilhelm Furtwängler Centre of Japan (WFCJ) and the Wilhelm Furtwängler Society of Japan (WFSJ) are mentioned, as those which are available only from one recording company. Records published by SWF, as well as WFG, WFCJ, WFSJ, Orfeo, Venezia and Tahra are available for members of our Society, see our CDs page.
- Philippe Leduc, Chairman, 2005
Bartòk
Violin Concerto n°2
1953, Philharmonia Orchestra, soloist Y. Menuhin (EMI)
Beethoven
Coriolan
1943, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (SWF)
Egmont
1947 (27.V), Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (SWF)
Leonore II
1949, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (SWF)
Symphony n°1
1952, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (EMI)
1954, Süddeutsche Rundfunk Orchestra (SWF)
Symphony n°3
1944, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (Tahra), the best version
1952 (7.XII), Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (Tahra)
1950 (20.VI), Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (Tahra)
1952 (26-27.XI), Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (EMI)
Symphony n°4
1943, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (SWF)
1952, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (EMI)
1953, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (SWF)
1950, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (Tahra)*
Symphony n°5
1943, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, an interpretation full of tension, a perfect example
of Furtwängler's art of conducting (Tahra)
1954 (23.V), Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (Tahra)
1947 (27.V), Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (SWF)
Symphony n°6
1944, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (SWF)
1943, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (Preiser, out of print)
1952, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (EMI)
1954 (23.V), Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (Tahra)
Symphony n°7
1943, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, the reference recording ever of the 7th Symphony (SWF)
1950, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (Tahra)*
1953, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (WFG)
Symphony n°8
1953, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (WFG)
Symphony n°9
1942, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, an interpretation with incredible tension (SWF, Tahra)
1954, Philharmonia Orchestra, Lucerne, a beautiful concert, with excellent sound (Tahra)
1951, Bayreuth Festival Orchestra, Bayreuth (Tahra, Naxos, EMI)
1937, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (WFCJ)*
Piano concerto n°5
1951, Philharmonia Orchestra, soloist Edwin Fischer (EMI)
Violin Concerto
1947, Philharmonia Orchestra, Lucerne, soloist Y. Menuhin (Testament)
Fidelio
1950, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra, Salzburg, soloists K. Flagstad, J. Patzak,
J. Greindl etc. (EMI)
1953, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra, Vienna, live, soloists M.Mödl, W.Windgassen,
G.Frick etc. (Naxos, Andante)
Check out our Beethoven page for complete information on recordings of works by Beethoven.
Brahms
Symphony n°1
1951, Nordeutsche Rundfunk Orchestra (Tahra, SWF)
1952 (10.II), Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (SWF, DG)
1945, last movement, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (SWF)*
Symphony n°2
1945, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (SWF, DG)
1952, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (SWF, EMI)
Symphony n°3
1949, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (EMI)
Symphony n°4
1943, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (Tahra, SWF)
1948 (24.X), Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (EMI)
Violin Concerto
1949, Lucerne Festival Orchestra, soloist Y. Menuhin (EMI)
Piano concerto n°2
1942, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, soloist E. Fischer (Testament)
Double Concerto
1952, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra, soloists A. Boskovsky et E. Brabec (EMI)
1949, Lucerne Festival Orchestra, soloists W.Schneiderhan and E.Mainardi (WFCJ)*
Variations on a Haydn theme
1951, Nordeutsche Rundfunk Orchestra (Tahra, SWF)*
Bruckner
Symphony n°4
1951, Munich, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (Tahra)
1951, Stuttgart, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (WFCJ)*
Symphony n°5
1942, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (DG)
Symphony n°6 (incomplete)
1943, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (SWF)
Symphony n°7
1949, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (SWF)
1942 (adagio), Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (Tahra, SWF)
1951, Rome, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (Tahra)*
Symphony n°8
1944, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (Tahra)
1949, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (Testament)
Symphony n°9
1944, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, an outstanding interpretation (SWF)
Franck
Symphony
1945, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (SWF)
Haydn
Symphony n°88
1951, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (SWF, Tahra, WFHC, Orfeo)
Symphony n°94
1951, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (EMI)
Liszt
The Preludes
1954, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (EMI)
Mahler
Lieder eines Farhenden Gesellen
1952, Philharmonia Orchestra, soloist D. Fischer-Dieskau (EMI)
Mendelssohn
Violin concerto
1952, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, soloist Y.Menuhin (Naxos, EMI)*
The Hebrides, overture
1930, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (SWF)*
Mozart
Serenade for 13 woodwind instruments
1947 (11.XI, 3.XII), soloists of Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (SWF)
Symphony n°39
1944, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (SWF)
Symphony n°40
1948, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (EMI)
Die Zauberflöte
1951, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra, soloists I. Seefried, A. Dermota, E. Kunz,
W. Lipp, P. Schoeffler etc. (EMI)
Don Giovanni
1953, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra, soloists C. Siepi, O. Edelmann,
E. Schwartzkopf, E. Grümmer, A. Dermota etc. (Orfeo)*
1954, Orchestre Philharmonique de Vienne, solistes C. Siepi, Deszö Ernster,
Lisa della Casa, E. Grümmer, A. Dermota etc. (DVD DG)*
1954, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra, soloists C. Siepi, O. Edelmann,
E. Schwartzkopf, E. Grümmer, A. Dermota etc. (WFSJ, EMI)
Schubert
Symphony n°8
1950, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (EMI)
1954, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (SWF)
Symphony n°9
1942, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (SWF)
Schumann
Symphony n°1
1951, Munich, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (Tahra)
Symphony n°4
1953 (14.V), Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (Tahra, WFHC)
Cello concerto (last movement)
1943, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, soloist P. Fournier (Tahra)
Sibelius
En Saga
1943, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (SWF)
R. Strauss
Don Juan, Till Eulenspiegel, Death and Transfiguration
1954 et 1950, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (EMI)
Metamorphoses
1947, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (SWF)
Tchaikovsky
Symphony n°4
1951, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (Tahra)*
Symphony n°6 "Pathetic"
1938, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (Tahra, Naxos)
Wagner
Die Tetralogie
1950, Milan Scala Orchestra, soloists K. Flagstad, F. Frantz, E. Höngen, G. Treptow,
S. Swanholm, M. Lorentz etc. (Arkadia)
Die Walküre
1954, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra, soloists M. Mödl, L. Rysanek, L. Suthaus,
F. Frantz, M. Klose, G. Frick etc. (Naxos, EMI)
Excerpts from Die Walküre and Götterdämmerung
1937, 1938, soloists R.Bockelmann, K.Flagstad, L.Melchior (Music & Arts)*
Lohengrin (Act III)
1936, Bayreuth, M.Müller, F.Völker (Venezia)*
Tristan und Isolde
1952, Philharmonia Orchestra, K. Flagstad, L. Suthaus, B. Thebom, I. Greindl,
D. Fischer-Dieskau (Naxos, EMI)
Symphonic excerpts from operas
Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (DG)*
Symphonic excerpts from operas and final of Götterdämmerung
Soloist K. Flagstad (EMI, Testament)
Trauersmarsch from Götterdämmerung
1933, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (SWF)*
Weber
Der Freischütz
1954, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra, soloists E. Grümmer, R. Streich, H. Hopf,
K. Böhm etc. (EMI)
Euryanthe, Overture
1954, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (SWF)*
Wolf
Lieder recital
1953, Salzburg, soloist E. Schwartzkopf, unique and moving testimony of Furtwängler as
a pianist (EMI).
Quote from: George on June 10, 2007, 06:36:12 AM
Could I have some input about the list of recommended recordings on the Furtwangler Society site? Do you agree with their choices? I've posted it below:
Oh, wow! :)
On transfers let me say this list is obviously
before M&A reissuing the LvB wartime set in new transfers (which I don't know), and before the emergence of the transfers on Opus Kura and on Melodiya (see earlier in this thread).
I bought a transfer of the Melodiya transfers of one of the wartime recordings and it was the best. I'm waiting for feedback from other posters on any other Melodiya items!
I mailed the French FW Society about Opus Kura, but haven't seen it being mentioned on their site. Btw, the transfers of the SWF is the same as Opus Kura's: transfers from
Melodiya LP's.
On composers my experience is that I like FW best in Beethoven, Bruckner, Wagner, Tchaikovsky, Sibelius.
I don't care for his Schubert - which is much loved and admired btw. Sounds totally out of sink to me.
Same with Haydn and Mozart - though his Don Giovanni is fascinating but more in an very odd way.
Brahms, yes, hmm, sometimes brilliant (1st from '51 and the 4th from '43) but I found the recordings in the EMI set unsatisfactory. You feel he's searching in Brahms, and not always finding...
Q
Quote from: Que on June 10, 2007, 09:31:19 AM
Btw, the transfers of the SWF is the same as Opus Kura's: transfers from Melodiya LP's.
Q
Can you link us to Melodiya Q?
Quote from: Bogey on June 10, 2007, 09:37:59 AM
Can you link us to Melodiya Q?
There is no trace of them on the
Melodiya site (http://www.melody.su/eng/) yet.
I've listed a few in
this earlier post (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,415.msg7545.html#msg7545)
But for the full works, it's best to vist
jpc (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/home/-/lang/en/currency/USD) and search on: "melodiya furtwängler".
Q
For a glimpse of Furtwängler's Bach, listen to the NPR radio program. Towards the end WF is playing the cadenza from the 5th Brandenburg concerto on piano. It's tantalizing to say the least - and I usually prefer this on harpsichord.
Just hit the "Listen" button beneath the title and wait. It's almost at the end of the program. Btw, the information in the program is not new, and only mildly (at best) controversial.
NPR.org (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1470638)
Quote from: Que on June 10, 2007, 09:50:30 AM
There is no trace of them on the Melodiya site (http://www.melody.su/eng/) yet.
I've listed a few in this earlier post (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,415.msg7545.html#msg7545)
But for the full works, it's best to vist jpc (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/home/-/lang/en/currency/USD) and search on: "melodiya furtwängler".
Q
For the
Bruckner 4, would Music and Arts do for now Q?
Quote from: Bunny on June 10, 2007, 09:51:49 AM
For a glimpse of Furtwängler's Bach, listen to the NPR radio program. Towards the end WF is playing the cadenza from the 5th Brandenburg concerto on piano. It's tantalizing to say the least - and I usually prefer this on harpsichord.
Just hit the "Listen" button beneath the title and wait. It's almost at the end of the program. Btw, the information in the program is not new, and only mildly (at best) controversial.
NPR.org (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1470638)
Thank you for that Bunny....just finished. NPR household here. My wife does the news station, while I hit the classical station (local). Just re-subscribed last night on the way to the symphony. :)
Quote from: Bogey on June 10, 2007, 09:53:23 AM
For the Bruckner 4, would Music and Arts do for now Q?
For Bruckner 4 - I have it still on DG myself ('51 Stuttgart).
In my experience M&A does better than DG, so I would suspect you have the best option. :)
Though I noticed on the list George posted, there is also a transfer by the Japanse FW society.
(No Melodiya option here, because it's post-war.)
Q
Quote from: Que on June 10, 2007, 10:01:08 AM
For Bruckner 4 - I have it still on DG myself ('51 Stuttgart).
In my experience M&A does better than DG, so I would suspect you have the best option. :)
Though I noticed on the list George posted, there is also a transfer by the Japanse FW society.
(No Melodiya option here, because it's post-war.)
Q
Thanks Q.
Quote from: Que on June 10, 2007, 10:01:08 AM
For Bruckner 4 - I have it still on DG myself ('51 Stuttgart).
In my experience M&A does better than DG, so I would suspect you have the best option. :)
Though I noticed on the list George posted, there is also a transfer by the Japanse FW society.
(No Melodiya option here, because it's post-war.)
Q
I would go for the Japanese option as from long experience I know they are extremely particular about sound quality and the Japanese engineers are extremely good at what they do.
(http://www.tahra.com/img/couv/1003.jpg)
Yesterday I was able to finally sit and give a proper listen to Beethoven Symphony No. 9 Furtwängler/Philharmonia Orchestra (Lucerene 8/22/'54-Tahra), as pictured above that Que finally dug up for me from a shop in the UK (I will post more on this source later as they were incredible with their service). During my listen I could not but help compare it to the the 9th from March of 1942 on the Music and Arts label (pictured below).
Here is my nutshell conclusion. The '54 has some of the most incredible sound for a recording of its age that I have ever heard. The clarity was almost too good to believe at times. In fact, I am putting it on its own "island" list when I discuss future historic transfers. I might even go as far and as denoting it as my "bridge" cd between old historic recordings and modern recordings when it comes to sound. In short, I have heard nothing like it. However, that does not give one the freedom to ignore the '42 recording. My main reasoning here is that I find the '54 lacks the drive and passion (and choral performance) that the '42 has to offer. Though still very well performed, it did not blow me away like the '42. So, my conclusion is that one should own both.....and IMO there is nothing wrong with having one too many 9ths on the shelf. :)
(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/312YZK528SL._AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: Bogey on August 12, 2007, 05:32:57 AM
(http://www.tahra.com/img/couv/1003.jpg)
Yesterday I was able to finally sit and give a proper listen to Beethoven Symphony No. 9 Furtwängler/Philharmonia Orchestra (Lucerene 8/22/'54-Tahra), as pictured above that Que finally dug up for me from a shop in the UK (I will post more on this source later as they were incredible with their service). During my listen I could not but help compare it to the the 9th from March of 1942 on the Music and Arts label (pictured below).
Here is my nutshell conclusion. The '54 has some of the most incredible sound for a recording of its age that I have ever heard. The clarity was almost too good to believe at times. In fact, I am putting it on its own "island" list when I discuss future historic transfers. I might even go as far and as denoting it as my "bridge" cd between old historic recordings and modern recordings when it comes to sound. In short, I have heard nothing like it. However, that does not give one the freedom to ignore the '42 recording. My main reasoning here is that I find the '54 lacks the drive and passion (and choral performance) that the '54 has to offer. Though still very well performed, it did not blow me away like the '42. So, my conclusion is that one should own both.....and IMO there is nothing wrong with having one too many 9ths on the shelf. :)
(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/312YZK528SL._AA240_.jpg)
Thanks for your review, Bill!!
I assume you meant (in the bolded) section "...that the '42 has to offer?"
BTW, Bill, where is the Tahra version available?
This is what the Furtwangler society has to say about the Lucerne Ninth of 1954 you review above (on Tahra):
"Finally, the famous Lucerne Ninth of 1954, which has to be considered as a testament. Here we find still more interpretative details not heard elsewhere [in furtwangler's performances], such as the fortissimo at bar 6 of the Scherzo. [Of Furtwangler's recorded performances of the 9th,] this is the most static and in places the slowest of all the Ninths, and also perhaps the one with the best orchestral playing. The recording is extraordinarily fine, and every detail of the score can be heard."
Quote from: George on August 12, 2007, 05:37:21 AM
BTW, Bill, where is the Tahra version available?
Here George:
http://www.the-woods.co.uk/
It was £4.99 plus shipping, which was a bit more for its trip over the Atlantic, but still a great price considering what Que and I have recently seen them for....that is, when you see them. My copy was used, but basically new. The previous owner even left a newspaper article about Furtwängler that they had clipped out within the liner notes.
Quote from: George on August 12, 2007, 05:36:09 AM
Thanks for your review, Bill!!
I assume you meant (in the bolded) section "...that the '42 has to offer?"
Yes. Corrected and thank you buddy.
Quote from: George on August 12, 2007, 05:37:21 AM
BTW, Bill, where is the Tahra version available?
This is what the Furtwangler society has to say about the Lucerne Ninth of 1954 you review above (on Tahra):
"Finally, the famous Lucerne Ninth of 1954, which has to be considered as a testament. Here we find still more interpretative details not heard elsewhere, such as the fortissimo at bar 6 of the Scherzo. This is the most static and in places the slowest of all the Ninths, and also perhaps the one with the best orchestral playing. The recording is extraordinarily fine, and every detail of the score can be heard."
I believe that is a fair review....I am not totally sold on the phrase "perhaps the one with the best orchestral playing", but then, the word "perhaps" provides that nice loophole. I will have to remember to use that word in my future reviews. ;D
Quote from: Bogey on August 12, 2007, 05:32:57 AM
(http://www.tahra.com/img/couv/1003.jpg)
Here is my nutshell conclusion. The '54 has some of the most incredible sound for a recording of its age that I have ever heard. The clarity was almost too good to believe at times. In fact, I am putting it on its own "island" list when I discuss future historic transfers. I might even go as far and as denoting it as my "bridge" cd between old historic recordings and modern recordings when it comes to sound. In short, I have heard nothing like it. However, that does not give one the freedom to ignore the '42 recording. My main reasoning here is that I find the '54 lacks the drive and passion (and choral performance) that the '54 has to offer. Though still very well performed, it did not blow me away like the '42. So, my conclusion is that one should own both.....and IMO there is nothing wrong with having one too many 9ths on the shelf. :)
Interesting comments, Bill!
Soundwise I feel this recordings easily trumps the '51 Bayreuth (EMI), as it does as a performance BTW.
It's fascinating to see that FW's wartime and postwar recordings are so radically different. And as you remarked, that goes too for the two recordings you compared - even more so than in any other piece and any other FW recordings I'd say. The '42 indeed being driven and passionate in a extravert way, almost apocalyptic. The '54 is IMO very inward looking, with emotions brooding below the surface. For me personally it embodies resignation and, like Beethoven when he wrote it, a longing for peace and emotional liberation. Sounds maybe a bit presumptuous, but I really think this is a recording (Lucerne '54) that grows on you.
Q
Quote from: Que on August 12, 2007, 06:06:27 AM
Interesting comments, Bill!
Soundwise I feel this recordings easily trumps the '51 Bayreuth (EMI), as it does as a performance BTW.
It's fascinating to see that FW's wartime and postwar recordings are so radically different. And as you remarked, that goes too for the two recordings you compared - even more so than in any other piece and any other FW recordings I'd say. The '42 indeed being driven and passionate in a extravert way, almost apocalyptic. The '54 is IMO very inward looking, with emotions brooding below the surface. For me personally it embodies resignation and, like Beethoven when he wrote it, a longing for peace and emotional liberation. Sounds maybe a bit presumptuous, but I really think this is a recording (Lucerne '54) that grows on you.
Q
As always, your mastery of words is a pleasure to read. Makes me want to go play both today and listen with your views in mind. Yes, both the '42 and '54 are different enough that it will be interesting to see where they fall for me, in let's say, 10 years from now. The '51 Bayreuth (EMI)? Hmmmmm. ;D
Quote from: Bogey on August 12, 2007, 05:56:14 AM
I believe that is a fair review....I am not totally sold on the phrase "perhaps the one with the best orchestral playing", but then, the word "perhaps" provides that nice loophole. I will have to remember to use that word in my future reviews. ;D
Yes, I guess I should have put the comments into perspective. It was taken from a discussion of Furtwangler's 9ths, so when they say "slowest of all" and "best orchestral playing," they mean of Furtwangler's recorded performances, not of everyone's. :)
Quote from: George on August 12, 2007, 06:47:03 AM
Yes, I guess I should have put the comments into perspective. It was taken from a discussion of Furtwangler's 9ths, so when they say "slowest of all" and "best orchestral playing," they mean of Furtwangler's recorded performances, not of everyone's. :)
Understood, but then "perhaps" is still necessary, no?
Quote from: Bogey on August 12, 2007, 05:32:57 AM
(http://www.tahra.com/img/couv/1003.jpg)
Yesterday I was able to finally sit and give a proper listen to Beethoven Symphony No. 9 Furtwängler/Philharmonia Orchestra (Lucerene 8/22/'54-Tahra), as pictured above that Que finally dug up for me from a shop in the UK (I will post more on this source later as they were incredible with their service). During my listen I could not but help compare it to the the 9th from March of 1942 on the Music and Arts label (pictured below).
Here is my nutshell conclusion. The '54 has some of the most incredible sound for a recording of its age that I have ever heard. The clarity was almost too good to believe at times. In fact, I am putting it on its own "island" list when I discuss future historic transfers. I might even go as far and as denoting it as my "bridge" cd between old historic recordings and modern recordings when it comes to sound. In short, I have heard nothing like it. However, that does not give one the freedom to ignore the '42 recording. My main reasoning here is that I find the '54 lacks the drive and passion (and choral performance) that the '42 has to offer. Though still very well performed, it did not blow me away like the '42. So, my conclusion is that one should own both.....and IMO there is nothing wrong with having one too many 9ths on the shelf. :)
I agree that the sound (especially for Furtwangler) is excellent here. I also agree with Que that this is a more introverted performance, one that works especially well in the slow movement. Usually this work (in most conductors hands) knocks me over with its power and dynamics, lessening my overall enjoyment of the work. However, this one made for a perfect choice this Sunday morning. Here there is a tenderness and finish in the playing that resulted in a gorgeous sense of overall serenity. His tempos are chosen and handled so well that at no time was I thinking (I would like to hear this a bit slower or faster). The singing in the finale is splendidly performed and recorded and the theme of joy is conveyed well by the orchestral players as well. With its deep emotional, even spiritual impact - something indeed appropriate for late Beethoven - this is a special performance. One that I will place alongside Karajan's more muscular '63 version and Fricsay's outstanding, more "balanced" performance with the BPO.
Quote from: George on August 12, 2007, 07:05:10 AM
I agree that the sound (especially for Furtwangler) is excellent here. I also agree with Que that this is a more introverted performance, one that works especially well in the slow movement. Usually this work (in most conductors hands) knocks me over with its power and dynamics, lessening my overall enjoyment of the work. However, this one made for a perfect choice this Sunday morning. Here there is a tenderness and finish in the playing that resulted in a gorgeous sense of overall serenity. His tempos are chosen and handled so well that at no time was I thinking (I would like to hear this a bit slower or faster). The singing in the finale is splendidly performed and recorded and the theme of joy is conveyed well by the orchestral players as well. With its deep emotional, even spiritual impact - something indeed appropriate for late Beethoven - this is a special performance. One that I will place alongside Karajan's more muscular '63 version and Fricsay's outstanding, more "balanced" performance with the BPO.
Great review George. However, I believe the "playing" of the orchestra does not come close for me when throwing it against the '63 ('62 for those that are counting) HvK. Nor would I compare the playing here in the same company of the '42 Furtwängler, or for that matter when it comes to the choral component, my favorite (that I have heard) the Dohnányi/Cleveland. But no matter. What is key here is that: 1. You enjoyed it at the level you did and 2. There are many recordings to choose from for this piece and enough so that I would assume most could find one that takes them to that musical bliss that many of us find when listening to it. However, with more listens I to may line up behind you in the future on your level of satisfaction. So for me, my 3 favorite continue to be, and probably in this order:
Dohnányi/Cleveland
Furtwängler/BPO '42
HvK/BPO '63
However, it is very nice having that '54 at fingertips reach. :)
Quote from: Bogey on August 12, 2007, 07:26:41 AM
Great review George. However, I believe the "playing" of the orchestra does not come close for me when throwing it against the '63 ('62 for those that are counting) HvK. Nor would I compare the playing here in the same company of the '42 Furtwängler, or for that matter when it comes to the choral component, my favorite (that I have heard) the Dohnányi/Cleveland.
Haven't heard the Dohnanyi, Bill. However, could you agree that the playing is at least somewhat subject to the conductors interpretative vision? When I said the playing was excellent, I meant that it did an excellent job of conveying the conductors interpretation. If Furtwangler was more intense in '42, that could be because he wanted it that way, not because the playing was better.
Another example might be Schnabel and Serkin. Schnabel was not really known for his playing (he made many mistakes), but he seemed to be more about conveying the choas or the soul of Beethoven's music. Serkin, on the other hand, played incredibly well, or rather had incredible technique. Even fans of Schnabel would concede this fact. However, many like Schnabel's playing more than Serkin, not because he could play better (without mistakes, etc) but because they like his vision.
Quote from: George on August 12, 2007, 07:51:55 AM
However, could you agree that the playing is at least somewhat subject to the conductors interpretative vision?
Oh, without a doubt. So slicing it this way, my three favorite interpretative visions
at this time of the 9th are as follows:
Dohnányi/Cleveland
Furtwängler/BPO '42
HvK/BPO '63
;D
Quote from: Bogey on August 12, 2007, 07:54:41 AM
Oh, without a doubt. So slicing it this way, my three favorite interpretative visions at this time of the 9th are as follows:
Dohnányi/Cleveland
Furtwängler/BPO '42
HvK/BPO '63
;D
;D
I kind of thought that was what you meant, but the former music major in me needed to clarify.
BTW - boys (and girls), what about this issue? ;D
(Sorry Bill, only just noticed it.... :'()
(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/4863577.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/4863577/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist)
click for link
Q
Quote from: Que on August 12, 2007, 08:48:37 AM
BTW - boys (and girls), what about this issue? ;D
(Sorry Bill, only just noticed it.... :'()
(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/4863577.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/4863577/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist)
click for link
Q
Oh, that looks like a beauty. The '42 by Tahra would be interesting alone, and I do not have the '51.
I have bee trying to get the '54 Lucerne version for a couple of months now (being a recent convert to Furtwangler). Is the one listed above (on the 4 disc set) the only version now available?
Quote from: Great Gable on October 23, 2007, 06:54:41 AM
I have bee trying to get the '54 Lucerne version for a couple of months now (being a recent convert to Furtwangler). Is the one listed above (on the 4 disc set) the only version now available?
So it seems. Firts issue was on a single CD (FURT 1003, pictured before).
Then came a 4 CD with "Legendary Post-War Concerts" (FURT 1067-70, pictured below).
That one was best deal to date IMO, since it also included the best post-war LvB 3rd, 5th and 6th, and the Brahms 1st.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41rKC8y-OOL._AA240_.jpg)
No doubt Tahra will recycle this recording yet again in future! :)
Q
It never fails to amaze me that many of the "greats" of recorded history are often out of print.
Quote from: Great Gable on October 23, 2007, 06:54:41 AM
I have bee trying to get the '54 Lucerne version for a couple of months now (being a recent convert to Furtwangler).
Someone posted this as a download on the old forum, but I cannot find it at the moment. :-\
Thanks George but don't worry on my behalf - I'd only be interested in the CD (I have no interest in music files etc)
Quote from: Que on August 12, 2007, 08:48:37 AM
BTW - boys (and girls), what about this issue? ;D
(Sorry Bill, only just noticed it.... :'()
(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/4863577.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/4863577/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist)
click for link
Q
After all this recent talk of Beethoven's 9th, I finally gave in and bought this (despite having all three 9ths already, though two of them in the "other" re-masterings). I'll post my impressions as soon as I've had the chance to sample it.
From just a brief look into the "package", however, the essay it contains alone is worth a lot: not only does it extensively present Furtwängler's conception of the work, but it comes with a fourth CD of multiple examples and comparisons, both from these three Furtwängler 9ths, and those of Karajan, Toscanini, etc.
In fact, some of the samples don't have the names of the conductor and orchestra deliberately, opting instead for "Conductor's name withheld", or "Famous baroque conductor", when the comparison would prove overwhelmingly against the "antagonist". Some might call this "cheap", but I found it fun enough a concept: especially given how thorough the cross-comparison seems to be. :D
So all in all, a very interesting issue... And what's more, it almost didn't survive the purchase, as the person in the record store accidentally dropped it! Cue a "
smash!" and CDs flying around, an impressive display of stoicism on my part and many apologies from his, and the only disc that was slightly roughed up was that of the cherished Lucerne 9th, which I thankfully already have. ;)
Right, update - and faster than I expected! From a first brief listen-through of various parts of the symphony, I can definitely assert that what the Tahra re-mastering undoubtedly adds to the "other" two Furtwängler 9ths is sonic substance.
The EMI issue of the Bayreuth 9th seems to have a tiny little more incision than the Tahra, though. Otherwise, the Music & Arts team seem completely outclassed by the "Tahrans" (;D), in the March 1942 Berlin 9th. Many thanks to Que and the rest, for pushing me towards this "indulgent" (but nonetheless successful) purchase! :)
Oh, the extra disc too is very illuminating indeed: especially the cross-comparisons are a beautiful idea, superbly implemented. Bravo, Tahra. 8)
Quote from: Renfield on October 24, 2007, 12:55:13 PM
Right, update - and faster than I expected! From a first brief listen-through of various parts of the symphony, I can definitely assert that what the Tahra re-mastering undoubtedly adds to the "other" two Furtwängler 9ths is sonic substance.
The EMI issue of the Bayreuth 9th seems to have a tiny little more incision than the Tahra, though. Otherwise, the Music & Arts team seem completely outclassed by the "Tahrans" (;D), in the March 1942 Berlin 9th. Many thanks to Que and the rest, for pushing me towards this "indulgent" (but nonetheless successful) purchase! :)
Oh, the extra disc too is very illuminating indeed: especially the cross-comparisons are a beautiful idea, superbly implemented. Bravo, Tahra. 8)
Thanks for the review. You make a very very convincing case for the set, especially as I only have the Lucerne ...
Funds are a bit low at the moment though :'(.
Can anyone tell me anything about Furtwangler's Orfeo?
Information I am after - sound quality, performance, speeds
Any comments on the different versions / labels?
Thanks in advance
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gluck-Orfeo-Euridice-Christoph-Willibald/dp/B000ERVJ90/ref=sr_1_3/203-7810774-1775126?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1194894924&sr=1-3
My second issue form the recent series of Melodiya's war-time recordings.
I will mainly comment on the transfer of the war-time recording of the 9th, recorded live on the 22th of March 1942. This confirms my impression that Melodiya has superior sources, and - not unimportant - does a terrific job with it this time around! Of this recording I already have what was IMO the best available sound-wise: the issue on Tahra. But Melodiya sweeps the board: the clearest, most natural sound and with more presence and details - complete with squeaking chairs or floor boards and coughing.
And the better sound quality does so much good for the performance! To me it comes across as more mellow and elegant than before.
Note that even this transfer can't take away the deficiences of the original recording, which is not the best of the various war-time recordings: some rough edges in the upper strings and overloading in the last movement.
Strongly recommended - even to replace existing transfers on DG or Tahra.
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w300/front/0/3695313.jpg)
Q
Quote from: Que on November 24, 2007, 09:11:13 AM
My second issue form the recent series of Melodiya's war-time recordings.
I will mainly comment on the transfer of the war-time recording of the 9th, recorded live on the 22th of March 1942. This confirms my impression that Melodiya has superior sources, and - not unimportant - does a terrific job with it this time around! Of this recording I already have what was IMO the best available sound-wise: the issue on Tahra. But Melodiya sweeps the board: the clearest, most natural sound and with more presence and details - complete with squeaking chairs or floor boards and coughing.
And the better sound quality does so much good for the performance! To me it comes across as more mellow and elegant than before.
Strongly recommended - even to replace existing transfers on DG or Tahra.
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w300/front/0/3695313.jpg)
Q
Que,
Would you mind giving a link where this Melodyia could be purchased? I would really appreciate it.
Quote from: Anne on November 24, 2007, 09:55:43 AM
Que,
Would you mind giving a link where this Melodyia could be purchased? I would really appreciate it.
If I remember correctly you are located in the US. The only US source I know is Russian DVD (http://www.russiandvd.com/store/product.asp?sku=44111&lang=eng).
For Europeans: for some inexplicable reason it's full price in the UK, while its mid price elsewhere.
The series goes for €12 at jpc.
BTW I did post some highlights of the series
earlier (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,415.msg7545.html#msg7545).
Q
Quote from: Que on November 24, 2007, 09:11:13 AM
Strongly recommended - even to replace existing transfers on DG or Tahra.
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w300/front/0/3695313.jpg)
Q
Have you heard the Music and Arts transfer? If so, how does it stack up to the Melodiya?
If not, would you compare if I uploaded a sample for you? I could do a WAV of the first 2 minutes or so. (I finally figured out how to edit tracks on itunes) 8)
Quote from: George on November 24, 2007, 10:21:38 AM
Have you heard the Music and Arts transfer? If so, how does it stack up to the Melodiya?
If not, would you compare if I uploaded a sample for you? I could do a WAV of the first 2 minutes or so. (I finally figured out how to edit tracks on itunes) 8)
I'ld suspect the Melodiya is better, as the Tahra transfers were always supposed to be better than the Music & Arts set (which I have BTW)...
Quote from: Que on November 24, 2007, 10:07:38 AM
If I remember correctly you are located in the US. The only US source I know is Russian DVD (http://www.russiandvd.com/store/product.asp?sku=44111&lang=eng).
For Europeans: for some inexplicable reason it's full price in the UK, while its mid price elsewhere.
The series goes for €12 at jpc.
BTW I did post some highlights of the series earlier (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,415.msg7545.html#msg7545).
Q
Thanks for the link. I will check out the highlights you mentioned.
Okay, time to admit my utter confusion.
I have what looks like a complete cycle of Beethoven's symphonies under Furtwangler (don't ask how I came by it ;)). The only information I have about each is as follows:
Symphonies Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 & 9 are with the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra.
Symphony 8 is allegedly with the Stockholm Philharmonic Orchestra.
So my question is this: Which cycle/set is this, and which label are these recordings on? Any help with years would also be great, as I'm in a complete mix trying to figure it out. ???
Thanks. :)
Quote from: Mark on November 24, 2007, 01:13:40 PM
Okay, time to admit my utter confusion.
I have what looks like a complete cycle of Beethoven's symphonies under Furtwangler (don't ask how I came by it ;)). The only information I have about each is as follows:
Symphonies Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 & 9 are with the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra.
Symphony 8 is allegedly with the Stockholm Philharmonic Orchestra.
So my question is this: Which cycle/set is this, and which label are these recordings on? Any help with years would also be great, as I'm in a complete mix trying to figure it out. ???
Thanks. :)
Probably the studio set from EMI...
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-9-Symphonies-Ludwig-van/dp/B00004YU8G/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1195943552&sr=1-1
Quote from: Peregrine on November 24, 2007, 01:33:41 PM
Probably the studio set from EMI...
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-9-Symphonies-Ludwig-van/dp/B00004YU8G/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1195943552&sr=1-1
That's what I figured shortly after I posted ;D. Cheers! :)
Quote from: Que on November 24, 2007, 09:11:13 AM
My second issue form the recent series of Melodiya's war-time recordings.
I will mainly comment on the transfer of the war-time recording of the 9th, recorded live on the 22th of March 1942. This confirms my impression that Melodiya has superior sources, and - not unimportant - does a terrific job with it this time around! Of this recording I already have what was IMO the best available sound-wise: the issue on Tahra. But Melodiya sweeps the board: the clearest, most natural sound and with more presence and details - complete with squeaking chairs or floor boards and coughing.
And the better sound quality does so much good for the performance! To me it comes across as more mellow and elegant than before.
Note that even this transfer can't take away the deficiences of the original recording, which is not the best of the various war-time recordings: some rough edges in the upper strings and overloading in the last movement.
Strongly recommended - even to replace existing transfers on DG or Tahra.
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w300/front/0/3695313.jpg)
Q
It looks like I need to revisit that "Melodiya Madness" source of mine, if the transfer is even better than the Tahra one. Many thanks for the heads-up! :)
Quote from: Renfield on November 24, 2007, 05:05:36 PM
It looks like I need to revisit that "Melodiya Madness" source of mine, if the transfer is even better than the Tahra one. Many thanks for the heads-up! :)
The interesting thing about these new Melodiya/Furtwängler transfers is that according to BBC Music Magazine Melodiya didn't actually use the original German Radio tapes for their transfers but instead used their own
copies of the tapes made years ago.
Gramophone mentioned the same thing but I don't remember precisely how their information read.
BBC Music had a lavish two-page spread devoted to these new Melodiya/Furtwängler reissues and actually found them wanting compared to Tahra. But that's solely their impression, of course.
If anyone has a BBC Music mag from a month or two ago perhaps they can shed more light on the subject. :)
(Not doubting you, Q, just perplexed... :-\)
Quote from: Que on November 24, 2007, 11:00:09 AM
George, matters of transfers are allways rather subjective. :)
So, I've uploaded the 1st mvt HERE (http://www.mediafire.com/?4cdjurneceq) for you and anyone else interested - to make up your own minds. It's in AAC 320 kbps btw.
Q
I can't tell. Perhaps if you uploaded the other 3 movements? ::)
Seriously, (ok, I'm only half kidding) thanks for that, Que! I will compare in the morning. :)
Quote from: George on November 24, 2007, 08:27:21 PM
I can't tell. Perhaps if you uploaded the other 3 movements? ::)
Seriously, (ok, I'm only half kidding) thanks for that, Que! I will compare in the morning. :)
So that you (and others could compare, I have uploaded the Music and Arts transfer of the first movement, also in AAC 320:
http://www.mediafire.com/?42ant7ccoly
My preliminary findings are that I like the Music and Arts more. I hear less distortion, at least partially due to the fact that the levels are lower, and the instruments sound more "real" to me.
Quote from: donwyn on November 24, 2007, 06:18:09 PM
The interesting thing about these new Melodiya/Furtwängler transfers is that according to BBC Music Magazine Melodiya didn't actually use the original German Radio tapes for their transfers but instead used their own copies of the tapes made years ago.
Gramophone mentioned the same thing but I don't remember precisely how their information read.
BBC Music had a lavish two-page spread devoted to these new Melodiya/Furtwängler reissues and actually found them wanting compared to Tahra. But that's solely their impression, of course.
If anyone has a BBC Music mag from a month or two ago perhaps they can shed more light on the subject. :)
(Not doubting you, Q, just perplexed... :-\)
Interesting! :) And the story about the copies could very well be true. The problem with magnetic tapes is of course that their condition steadily deteriorates. So I imagine that copies made when the originals where in better condition, could actually sound better?
Another way go about it, is to take transfers from post-war Melodiya LP's - that's what Opus Kura and the French Furtwängler Society do. BTW interesting notes by Opus Kura on this particular recording
HERE (http://opuskura.com/cat_notes_e.htm#7003). Haven't heard
their transfer! ;D
As for the comparison - it is a trade off: more details and presence ("higher level"), less constriction but decidely more "roughness" in return. Tahra has smoothed out the rough edges. There are also some differences in approach on the issue of pitch, I think. I greatly prefer Tahra's transfers of the post-war recordings, but I've never found their issues of the war-time recordings entirely satisfactory.
Will compare your M&A sample,
George! :)
Q
Quote from: Que on November 24, 2007, 09:15:43 PM
Interesting! :) And the story about the copies could very well be true. The problem with magnetic tapes is of course that their condition steadily deteriorates. So I imagine that copies made when the originals where in better condition, could actually sound better?
Sounds like a book could be written on the subject, Q. :)
It could be the original tapes are in such bad condition they can't be used anymore. Especially since, according to the same BBC Music article, DG themselves shied away from using these tapes in
their latest Furtwängler transfers. And they own them!! So could it be the days of original German Radio transfers are over?
Well if it's the BBC music magazine, where are you Mark? Come on!
Quote from: donwyn on November 24, 2007, 06:18:09 PM
If anyone has a BBC Music mag from a month or two ago perhaps they can shed more light on the subject. :)
Here's part one of that article ...
... and here's part two. ;)
Great Mark! Thanks! :)
Q
Cheers, Mark, very interesting.
Well, it has been an interesting LvB 9th/'42 WF morning! ;D
With my morning tea I did a complete run of the transfer on Tahra. Then, I sampled all movements of the issue on Melodiya. And I listened to George's upload of the 1st mvt on M&A.
So, what to make of it? :)
First, let me reassure all Tahra fans - their transfer is a very fine job indeed.
But I was reaffirmed my earlier impressions on the differences I noted earlier. Tahra does not have less distortion or variability in sound than Melodiya. The difference is that it has been much more moderated /smoothed - there is hardly ANY hiss left. Afterall, the characteristics mentioned in BBC Magazine: "gritty, distorted and variable" are all deficiencies in the original recording - I did not find it a very expertly remark. The overall impression is quieter, smoother - "clean" but veiled. Sound has less presence and, especially in the 1st mvt and the last mvt, less definition - it is more "blurred" at times. In the 3rd mvt - where original sound quality is best - I very much enjoyed the Tahra.
The M&A sounds actually pretty good to me - open, natural sound with presence. Based on this sample, I would not confirm, perhaps even dismiss, any superiority of the transfer on Tahra. But M&A redid these, is it not? Did they indicate the sources they used?
Melodiya's sound is also "harsher" at times, but that sounds as the recording just is - not as the product of bad remastering. The sources they used do not sound inferior in quality in comparison to Tahra - maybe even a bit the other way around. Melodiya gives no details on the remastering - apart from "P 2006". But the mastering seems to me rather sophisticated for 1993, and the very "purist" approach with very little filtering would be totally out of sink with Melodiya's "(very) heavy-filtering" policy of those days. So, maybe a question mark there.
The issue is IMO: do you like a layer of make-up on this old lady, or not? ;D
BTW, I have had very good experiences with Opus Kura's transfers from Melodiya LP's of war-time recordings: a superb Bruckner 5th (easily beating DG and M&A), and LvB 4th & 7th (both '43). But on-line samples of their transfer of the 9th sounded not quite right to me - they lowered speed to lower pitch, which makes it "bottom heavy".
Q
Quote from: Que on November 25, 2007, 02:03:25 AM
The issue is IMO: do you like a layer of make-up on this old lady, or not? ;D
Q
Q,
You cannot begin to understand how painful it it is to have one's Trix cereal rocket through one's nasal cavity due to the sudden burst of laughter caused by the above line. :D
Quote from: Bogey on November 25, 2007, 05:29:00 AM
Q,
You cannot begin to understand how painful it it is to have one's Trix cereal rocket through one's nasal cavity due to the sudden burst of laughter caused by the above line. :D
;D
I tend to prefer mine without the make-up...
;)
Quote from: Que on November 25, 2007, 02:03:25 AM
The M&A sounds actually pretty good to me - open, natural sound with presence. Based on this sample, I would not confirm, perhaps even dismiss, any superiority of the transfer on Tahra. But M&A redid these, is it not? Did they indicate the sources they used?
I believe that they did redo these, on the back of the CD case it says "Technical Reconstruction by Maggi Payne." Other than that vague description, I find nothing to indicate the source unfortunately.
I never felt like I really "got" Wagner's Tristan und Isolde until Furtwangler.
Has anyone ever found a good transfer of the Berlin Bruckner 7? I bought a pirate version from a second-hand shop and it becomes painful to listen to when the timpani are playing loudly (which, in Furtwangler, is often).
I've heard that the Rome version can be heard in better sound, but isn't as good (though much better than the frankly rather dull Cairo performance).
Quote from: edward on November 25, 2007, 01:55:49 PM
Has anyone ever found a good transfer of the Berlin Bruckner 7? I bought a pirate version from a second-hand shop and it becomes painful to listen to when the timpani are playing loudly (which, in Furtwangler, is often).
I've heard that the Rome version can be heard in better sound, but isn't as good (though much better than the frankly rather dull Cairo performance).
Heaven't heard it, but I believe this is the only "official" issue on CD to date.
Apart from Japanese issues on EMI/Toshiba - might be well worth checking out!
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4139AD1MQZL.jpg)
Q
For those bewildered by the different live recordings and available transfers of Furtwängler recordings - and who isn't? ;D
Just found this excellent (bilingual - FR/EN) Furtwängler "CD-graphy" (http://patangel.free.fr/furt/disco.htm) !
NOTE:
"There are thousands of Furtwängler discographies, such as those of J. Hunt who published at least six between 1982 and 1999 (one every three years). In 1997, TAHRA published a chronological document inspired by H. Olsen's discography published in 1973 and which, according to great number of specialists, remains a reference although some items are missing, which is perhaps understandable for the time. Our aim, with the present discography, is to put at the disposal of the admirers of Furtwängler a list based on the philosophy of maintaining the chronology, listing all the recordings known to date (a number of previously unissued recordings have been added), and citing only the best CD editions. So, rather than a discography we should talk about a "CD-graphy".
We have also decided only to list official recordings, i.e. authorised labels having legal access to the original tapes:principally Furtwängler's two recording labels - Deutsche Grammophon and EMI - but also some independent labels such as Orfeo, Tahra and the Furtwängler societies, mainly the French and the German ones. So we have left out the many pirate and unauthorised editions (such as the Japanese Elaboration, Evangel or the French Arlecchino/Dante) that, being only far copies from the original, mainly serve themselves."
Q
P.S. Interestingly, these issues are mentioned as "best" for the war-time recording ('42) of the 9th - discussed earlier: French WFS/SWF/891R; Melodiya 10 00715, Tahra/Furt 1004-07.
For those of you who, like me, who had been looking for Furtwangler's Lucerne 1954 9th, this is now available...
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000001OFV
I don't know what the Tahra edition was like but this is absolutely fine, sound wise.
Quote from: Great Gable on February 09, 2008, 11:28:46 PM
For those of you who, like me, who had been looking for Furtwangler's Lucerne 1954 9th, this is now available...
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000001OFV
I don't know what the Tahra edition was like but this is absolutely fine, sound wise.
The Tahra already sounded exceptionally good for a 1954 live recording.
Hope the M&A sounds as good. They probably had access to the Tahra (source) material, considering the relations between the two companies - M&A is the US distributor for Tahra.
In any case: heartily second your recommendation for this recording! :)
BTW, Orfeo has issued a "new" (never issued) live recording of a WF LvB 9th:
(http://www.orfeo-international.de/covers/18707g.jpg)
[from Orfeo:]In 1951 Wilhelm Furtwängler twice demonstrated his inspired approach to Beethoven's Ninth Symphony within a matter of only a few weeks: at the Salzburg Festival (C 533 001 B) and to reopen the first post-war Bayreuth Festival. For a long time, the unedited recording of the legendary performance on Bayreuth's Green Hill that was broadcast live to the whole of Europe was believed to be lost. It is now being issued by Orfeo in a carefully restored pressing. The impression left by the performance is overwhelming, generating the feeling that Furtwängler was always keen to create in all his interpretations: the music is in a constant state of flux, while none the less striking out in unexpected and surprising directions, notably in the Scherzo, which receives the most trenchant imaginable performance here. Such a reading is possible thanks, not least, to Furtwängler's willingness to use a risky but never arbitrary rubato at difficult musical transitions and modulations. Moreover, the playing and singing of all the participants conveys the twofold sense of tension generated by Furtwängler's energy-laden unpredictability on the one hand and by the special nature of the concert on the other. This was only the second time that Beethoven's Ninth Symphony had been performed in the Bayreuth Festspielhaus, the foundation-stone-laying ceremony for which had been marked by a performance under Wagner's own direction in 1872. The 1951 performance was like a rebirth of the Festival myth. It would be pointless to rhapsodize about the supremely high standards of the Bayreuth Festival Orchestra and Chorus, the latter including all the soloists from that summer's Festival. It says much for the high artistic status of Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, Elisabeth Höngen, Hans Hopf and Otto Edelmann that their individual performances stand out from this collective achievement, without distracting from the overwhelming impression of the performance as a whole. The fact that this concert was immediately hailed as "the musical high point of post-war history" will be disputed by no one who hears the authentic recording of this concert.Q
Que - isn't that the one alreaady issued on EMI classics?
Quote from: Great Gable on February 10, 2008, 02:28:22 AM
Que - isn't that the one alreaady issued on EMI classics?
I believe the position of Orfeo is that the EMI recording is edited by using parts of different (live) performances, and that their issue presents the uncut version. To which extent the EMI version would be doctored is unclear to me, but I would not be surprised if this allegation of tinkering by Walter Legge is true. My issue of the EMI (latest incarnation) doesn't give an exact date, just: "Bayreuth, 1951"... ::) I never really liked it BTW, a comparison with the Orfeo issue would be interesting indeed.
Q
Que - I must confess that I love the EMI issue - the sound is really good and I like the pacing - my favourite Furtwangler 3rd movement for sure.
Quote from: Great Gable on February 09, 2008, 11:28:46 PM
For those of you who, like me, who had been looking for Furtwangler's Lucerne 1954 9th, this is now available...
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000001OFV
I don't know what the Tahra edition was like but this is absolutely fine, sound wise.
At the time of its release this Music & Arts transfer was hailed as the best yet. Then, in a surprise move, M&A came back a year or two later and re-released this same performance in an even better transfer - with a different cover (one which I'm unable to locate on the web).
All this is chronicled in past issues of Fanfare and when I get to them I'll try to shed more light on the subject.
At any rate, this
is a great transfer but one that, from all I've read, still yields to Tahra.
Brilliant thread; Furtwangler is a god.
Quote from: Michel on February 10, 2008, 09:02:15 AM
Brilliant thread; Furtwangler is a god.
Tristan und Isolde
There's a new documentary dvd for pre-order at Naxos and Amazon about the BP during WW2 that includes footage of Furtwängler actually conducting the famous (or infamous) performance of Beethoven's Ninth for Hitler's birthday. I'm not sure whether the documentary includes the whole performance, but the snippets shown in the trailer at the Naxos (http://web11.streamhoster.com/naxosusa/Reichorchester/CONSUMER.html) site were very interesting.
(http://www.naxosdirect.com/templates/shared/images/titles/largest/807280145397.jpg)
Quote from: Great Gable on February 09, 2008, 11:28:46 PM
For those of you who, like me, who had been looking for Furtwangler's Lucerne 1954 9th, this is now available...
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000001OFV
I don't know what the Tahra edition was like but this is absolutely fine, sound wise.
Quote from: donwyn on February 10, 2008, 08:18:40 AM
At the time of its release this Music & Arts transfer was hailed as the best yet. Then, in a surprise move, M&A came back a year or two later and re-released this same performance in an even better transfer - with a different cover (one which I'm unable to locate on the web).
All this is chronicled in past issues of Fanfare and when I get to them I'll try to shed more light on the subject.
Well, dug around and finally got hold of the two Fanfare issues relevant to the two Music & Arts releases of this Lucerne 9th (spaced two years apart).
Fanfare (Mar-Apr 1994) speaks highly of the above linked disc but Fanfare (Jan-Feb 1996) qualifies that review by pointing to the disc's main defect: it's "a tad suspect in pitch".
The review goes on to say that M&A corrects the pitch problem in the new transfer (by Lowell Cross) and also spices up the sound as a whole.
So then here we have a successful transfer of the Lucerne 9th...so why do they turn around and reissue the 'suspect' 9th again? They
own a 'proper' one...
Big shrug...
However, one note: the later review still points to Tahra as the finest of all transfers.
(BTW, same reviewer in the above Fanfare reviews)
Just finished listening to his Brahms 1, excellent stuff! You never knew what tension means until you've heard Furtwangler...
I want to watch that DVD. My mother sent me the book (the original German version) a few weeks ago, but I haven't had time yet to read it. The gentleman in the Naxos trailer who speaks first, with the dark bass in the background, is my first bass teacher (BP member from 1942-85), BTW. He is 88 now! I hope he gets to say more in the documentary than just a few sentences. He told me a lot of stories about his over 4 decades in the orchestra, but also about the war. In many respects, he is very typical of that generation of German musicians. He originally wanted to study at an university (don't remember what, I think it was medicine, but I may be wrong in my recollection) but wasn't allowed to because the family wasn't politically on the right track enough. So he studied music in his home town Leipzig with the principal of the Gewandhausorchester and graduated just in time to be drafted into the Wehrmacht and be sent to the Eastern front where he was taken POW, escaped and somehow made his way back to the German lines, was sent back to the front again where his right arm was torn to shreds by grenade splinters. They actually wanted to amputate but he told them he still needed the arm before he passed out, and the doctor looked in his file and saw he was a musician, so he decided to give it a try. That worked, even though his right hand was badly deformed and he had big chunks of flesh missing from the arm. Then he was discharged and allowed to go back home where he spent a few months practicing intensely, and then he took two auditions, one in Altenburg in Saxony, in a tiny theater in the deepest province, and one for the BP a little while later. He won both auditions, and to the consternation of the people in Altenburg, he decided to take the job in Berlin...Apparently, they were really upset in Altenburg and gave him a hard time because he had already accepted the position, but he told me that it was probably the better decision to join the BP than to go to Altenburg :D
I want to get a Beethoven VC played by Erich Rohn & Furtwangler. Which mastering is best - the DG, Andromeda or the Melodiya?
Quote from: MichaelRabin on February 16, 2008, 06:34:50 AM
I want to get a Beethoven VC played by Erich Rohn & Furtwangler. Which mastering is best - the DG, Andromeda or the Melodiya?
I haven't heard transfers of this particular recording. But based on other transfers of Furtwängler recordings I suppose the choice would be between Opus Kura, who make transfers from early Melodiya LP's, and Melodiya itself, who either do the same or use an earlier generation copy of the original tape than DG. Andromeda is a pirate, so who knows where they got it from.
(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/35/920935.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4600317011056.jpg)
Q
Thanks Que. What do you think of Rohn's performance? Cheers - RF
Quote from: MichaelRabin on February 16, 2008, 06:34:50 AM
I want to get a Beethoven VC played by Erich Rohn & Furtwangler. Which mastering is best - the DG, Andromeda or the Melodiya?
Melodiya, most of the time, historical recordings are the best on that label.
This thread is making me think about digging out my M&A Beethoven and Brahms sets again. I did find the harsh sound a turn-off on first listening, though.
Also, I recently got the Bruckner set on Andromeda. Quality is mostly surprisingly good - I think it must have been cleaned - but 8 and 9 have
definitely been cleaned, managing to be both quite shrill and a bit bottom heavy at the same time. Perhaps worst is the artificial stereo sound imposed on these two symphonies.
WHY?Quote from: Que on February 16, 2008, 06:48:01 AMAndromeda is a pirate, so who knows where they got it from.
I think they usually copy from legit editions, where they can get away with it.
Has anyone bought (heard) this set yet. I have been very happy with my Furt Beethoven & Brahms sets from M&A. Looking for opinions on performances and sound if you have.
http://www.musicandarts.com/0208_New_Class.html (http://www.musicandarts.com/0208_New_Class.html)
Thanks
Quote from: sam adams on March 17, 2008, 11:43:13 AM
Has anyone bought (heard) this set yet. I have been very happy with my Furt Beethoven & Brahms sets from M&A. Looking for opinions on performances and sound if you have.
http://www.musicandarts.com/0208_New_Class.html (http://www.musicandarts.com/0208_New_Class.html)
Thanks
No, but Berky had 2 sets, and was selling it for 25 bucks, needless to say they were gone in a nanosecond!
Quote from: Gustav on March 17, 2008, 12:17:29 PM
No, but Berky had 2 sets, and was selling it for 25 bucks, needless to say they were gone in a nanosecond!
Dang! Didn't see that one. Now I have to wait for the NEXT nanosecond...
;)
However...re the music. The performances (if I remember the dates correctly) should give you some splendid Bruckner indeed. I've never heard another 9th to match this one, for example. But the "new" remastering process is something I'm not familiar with. Could be great, but...?
Dirk
Is it 1942?? Or 1951?
Both.
The wartime version from March 22/24, 1942 is probably best known and most reissued. (There was a follow-up performance, known as the "Hitler birthday" 9th on April 19, 1942, that was issued by Archipel).
The 1951 "famous" 9th was Furtwangler's performance at the Bayreuth festival that year.
BTW, at least three other 9ths--London 1937, Stockholm 1943 and Lucerne 1954--are ALMOST equally well known.
Hope that answers your question.
Cheers,
Dirk
Many many thanks.
Which is the one with the mistake in the slow movement people sometimes talk about?
Quote from: Sean on April 13, 2008, 07:36:46 PM
Many many thanks.
Which is the one with the mistake in the slow movement people sometimes talk about?
If you mean the horrendous horn problems, that's Bayreuth 1951.
Okay.
Quote from: edward on April 13, 2008, 08:22:58 PM
If you mean the horrendous horn problems, that's Bayreuth 1951.
Which is, ironically, my absolute favourite of all ninths. I have four with Furtwangler - 1942 (Hitler's Birthday bash - like being in the path of a crashing train), 1952 Vienna, 1954 Lucerne and the 1951 Bayreuth. The slow movement of the latter is stunning - slower than all the others but not a snail's pace and more moving as a result.
Quote from: Great Gable on April 13, 2008, 11:08:44 PM
like being in the path of a crashing train
Yes, but that does make it very special; at least to me. Although the Lucerne 9th goes "above and beyond", so to put it. 0:)
Quote from: Renfield on April 13, 2008, 11:28:15 PM
Yes, but that does make it very special; at least to me. Although the Lucerne 9th goes "above and beyond", so to put it. 0:)
I also rate the Lucerne 9th very highly. I have the '51 Bayreuth and the famous '42 but it's the Lucerne I return to most often
All of the Furtwangler 9ths are valuble since no two are quite alike. Furtwangler's interpretations were very much subject to the occasion and that's why some find his legacy difficult to come to grips with. I would say that a Furtwangler 9th is not for the novice by any means. Also, all the Furtwangler 9ths that I've heard suffer from "listenable" sound at best.
Quote from: FredT on April 14, 2008, 06:29:03 AM
Also, all the Furtwangler 9ths that I've heard suffer from "listenable" sound at best.
Then you haven't heard the Lucerne recording on Tahra - which sounds amazingly good for a '50s live recording.
Q
In case you're interested, HERE (http://my.dreamwiz.com/fischer/Furtwangler/furtwangler-discography.htm#No.9)is a discography with all 12 of Furtwangler's recordings of Beethoven's 9th.
Wow, that's remarkable.
Which one is the most sonically outstanding? I know all famous versions have coughs and tape hisses...and all are mono, correct?
The 1942 is available complete on Youtube, each mov in several parts. I listened to it yesterday- mostly fast tempos, even approaching a rather excitable state, a contrast to what is sometimes the greater maturity of Karajan, or other more measured approaches; however there's a high level of preparation with every bar illuminated and a wide range of gesture and dynamics. Furtwangler's greatest achievement, in that subtle sound detail, layering and colouring to produce those strange, otherworldly insightful moments, or visionary splendours as Grove puts it, are throughout this performance, perhaps most in the slow movement. No other conductor has ever quite achieved this sort of thing, some very peculiar effects. Several times I've stopped and replayed just a few seconds of music five or six times.
Another interesting on is his Eulenspiegel also on Youtube- some ruthless German spirit captured...
Quote from: Perfect FIFTH on April 15, 2008, 07:01:44 PM
Which one is the most sonically outstanding? I know all famous versions have coughs and tape hisses...and all are mono, correct?
The Lucerne 9th, 1954, on Tahra. (AFAIK) :)
Quote from: eyeresist on February 22, 2008, 12:45:08 AM
Also, I recently got the Bruckner set on Andromeda. Quality is mostly surprisingly good - I think it must have been cleaned - but 8 and 9 have definitely been cleaned, managing to be both quite shrill and a bit bottom heavy at the same time. Perhaps worst is the artificial stereo sound imposed on these two symphonies. WHY?
I think they usually copy from legit editions, where they can get away with it.
Indeed, that must be why their issues sound so terrible: they take a legit remaster, and then have to distort the recording to hide its origin. There is no way that this could ever produce a superior (or even equal) quality disc. Avoid at all cost, unless there is no alternative...
Oh, and bump! 0:)
I originally posted this seperately but Que pointed me to this thread. I was wondereing if anyone has had a chance to get this:
http://www.tahra.com/nouveautes.php (http://www.tahra.com/nouveautes.php)
Its the Furt LVB Lucerne 9th on SACD issued by Tahra. I was wondering if the SACD could improve the sound on a early 1950's recording that was already in great sound. I was considering getting the Legendary Post War LVB set by Tahra, but now I am wondering if they are planning on releasing this set in SACD format as well.
Just a quick update: I e-mailed Tahra about the Furt Legendary Performances Set and was informed that they are not planning on doing that set in SACD, they also told me that the original set is no longer available either.
Looks like I need to try to find it used.
Quote from: sam adams on May 22, 2008, 12:20:57 PM
I was wondering if the SACD could improve the sound on a early 1950's recording that was already in great sound.
No, it couldn't. No matter how good the quality of the original is, no recording from that period has anything even close to the bandwidth that can be covered by a conventional CD, so "stepping up" from that transport medium to a (theoretically) slightly better one will not give you any improvement at all. That's kind of like when you can only go 50mph because the road is not very good, it won't make a difference if you have a car which can do 120mph or one which can do 150mph. OK, that's a strange comparison, but I think you know what I mean.
Quote from: M forever on June 04, 2008, 03:39:05 PM
No, it couldn't. No matter how good the quality of the original is, no recording from that period has anything even close to the bandwidth that can be covered by a conventional CD, so "stepping up" from that transport medium to a (theoretically) slightly better one will not give you any improvement at all. That's kind of like when you can only go 50mph because the road is not very good, it won't make a difference if you have a car which can do 120mph or one which can do 150mph. OK, that's a strange comparison, but I think you know what I mean.
Maybe I have tin ears, but have not noticed much of a difference between the 2 channel SACD layer and the CD layer of any hybrid SACD I have heard. There was harshness in some early CD's because early digital recording equipment was far from optimized and because recording engineers had not figured out how to adapt their bag of tricks to the requirements of the new medium, but nowadays these problems have been largely solved. I still like SACD because outfits that use DSD systems tend to be very serious about audio quality, and it is very nice to have center and surround channels to give a more enveloping sound field.
My main complaint with modern digital recordings is that they are too bright (to much high frequency emphasis). I am constantly listening with treble controls turned down or my equalizer with high frequency bands pushed down 3-6 db. This, I suspect, is more of a marketing decision rather than a technical one.
Quote from: M forever on June 04, 2008, 03:39:05 PM
No, it couldn't. No matter how good the quality of the original is, no recording from that period has anything even close to the bandwidth that can be covered by a conventional CD, so "stepping up" from that transport medium to a (theoretically) slightly better one will not give you any improvement at all. That's kind of like when you can only go 50mph because the road is not very good, it won't make a difference if you have a car which can do 120mph or one which can do 150mph. OK, that's a strange comparison, but I think you know what I mean.
Thanks M, I had a funny feeling about that. I remember a few years ago some outfit put out Furt's war time recordings on SACD and I remember thinking how are they going to squeeze blood from that stone?
Well, as Scarpia pointed out, SACD masters are created by DSD recording which *theoretically* can represent the original analog recording better than a PCM encoded CD, but again, it doesn't matter because the quality of the original is way below what PCM can "capture", so *theoretically* there could be a difference, but only when we are talking about a very high quality analog recording, not anything that old (which doesn't mean they didn't make good recordings with the technology available back then, but the technologies were simply very limited). And even then, as Scarpia also pointed out, it is doubtful whether most people will hear a difference between CD and SACD with most material on most equipment, as extensive blind listening tests have proven. There are some slight quality differences which may become noticeable with very good material on very good equipment, but then again, most people wouldn't hear the difference even if they imagine they do...
Quote from: M forever on June 05, 2008, 11:12:06 AM
Well, as Scarpia pointed out, SACD masters are created by DSD recording which *theoretically* can represent the original analog recording better than a PCM encoded CD, but again, it doesn't matter because the quality of the original is way below what PCM can "capture", so *theoretically* there could be a difference, but only when we are talking about a very high quality analog recording, not anything that old (which doesn't mean they didn't make good recordings with the technology available back then, but the technologies were simply very limited). And even then, as Scarpia also pointed out, it is doubtful whether most people will hear a difference between CD and SACD with most material on most equipment, as extensive blind listening tests have proven. There are some slight quality differences which may become noticeable with very good material on very good equipment, but then again, most people wouldn't hear the difference even if they imagine they do...
Visual analogies are fun. Imagine an old photo. You make a copy on an old Xerox machine, it gets crumpled up in the bottom of your rucksack, you spill coffee on it, it gets ripped in half and you tape it back together. Now you scan it on an ultra-high resolution flat-bed scanner. Does that make it look better? No, it just lets you see all of the flaws with ultra-high resolution.
Quote from: scarpia on June 05, 2008, 11:56:57 AM
No, it just lets you see all of the flaws with ultra-high resolution.
But you get to see the rest in ultra-high resolution as well.
No, you don't. Scarpia's comparison is flawed. The "ultrahigh resolution" here would be the high frequency response which is simply not there - at all - above a certain point. So you don't get to "see" anything that you couldn't "see" on the other medium.
Quote from: M forever on June 05, 2008, 06:33:57 PM
No, you don't. Scarpia's comparison is flawed. The "ultrahigh resolution" here would be the high frequency response which is simply not there - at all - above a certain point. So you don't get to "see" anything that you couldn't "see" on the other medium.
The analogy is not flawed, you just have to assume that the picture, in addition to being damaged, is blurry. When you zoom into the picture on your high resolution scanner you don't see the detail of the original image, you see all of the scratches on the blurry image with great detail. The old recording in principle contains a remnant of all of the high frequency information, it is simply attenuated (blurred) and buried under noise and distortion. When you reproduce it on SACD, you hear all of that distortion, clipping, pops, scratches and hiss with exquisite resolution, but you don't hear any more music, because it is the distortion, clipping, pop, scratches and hiss that is preventing you from hearing it in the first place.
Quote from: scarpia on June 05, 2008, 07:35:24 PM
The old recording in principle contains a remnant of all of the high frequency information
No, it doesn't. In the days before Dolby, everything in the high frequency bands that were too distorted was simply filtered off with very steep filters. That was the only form of noise reduction they had back then. Oops, you didn't know that? That's OK, few people do. But now you do.
Quote from: M forever on June 05, 2008, 07:54:08 PM
No, it doesn't. In the days before Dolby, everything in the high frequency bands that were too distorted was simply filtered off with very steep filters. That was the only form of noise reduction they had back then. Oops, you didn't know that? That's OK, few people do. But now you do.
And here we have know-it-all Mr. Monkeys Forever liberating the world from ignorance once again! Thanks Mr. Monkeys! +10 banana points!
So, here it is, the new issue of the Lucerne LvB 9th! :)
(click picture for link to jpc)
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/3504129200114.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/1010302?rk=classic&rsk=hitlist)
Q
Quote from: Que on June 06, 2008, 10:21:21 PM
So, here it is, the new issue of the Lucerne LvB 9th! :)
(click picture for link to jpc)
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/3504129200114.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/1010302?rk=classic&rsk=hitlist)
Q
Did they tinker with it any Que, or is it just a straight re-issue?
Quote from: Bogey on June 16, 2008, 06:35:09 PM
Did they tinker with it any Que, or is it just a straight re-issue?
I am curious too, though I suspect that SACD might be overkill for something that old.
Quote from: Howard on June 16, 2008, 07:44:04 PM
I am curious too, though I suspect that SACD might be overkill for something that old.
That raised an eyebrow at this end also Howard...just not seeing that.
Quote from: Bogey on June 16, 2008, 07:46:53 PM
That raised an eyebrow at this end also Howard...just not seeing that.
Could be just a marketing gimmick.
Quote from: Howard on June 16, 2008, 07:52:03 PM
Could be just a marketing gimmick.
....but without the SACD layer initiated, one is at least left with what some consider an incredible transfer of this 9th, without having to search high and low for their previous issue. It is quite good, but I enjoy his 1942 (M&A) more.
Quote from: Bogey on June 16, 2008, 07:57:04 PM
....but without the SACD layer initiated, one is at least left with what some consider an incredible transfer of this 9th, without having to search high and low for their previous issue. It is quite good, but I enjoy his 1942 (M&A) more.
Yes, I have that set too. An intense, individual account of those symphonies for sure.
Don't expect me to read the whole thread. I have some recordings of Furtwängler and I appriciate them. I bought the box by TIM ( The international musiccompany). Bad sound of course, these are wartime recordings. All life. Very cheap. I found the Bruckners 9th very good, even better than the Jochum ( would only the sound be better!) and loved the Cesar Franck symphony.
Recently I had a meeting with someone whom I met in a German classical music forum. He brought me some more Furtwängler as a present. All symphonies of Brahms, Bruckners 4th, Beethovens 9th Haydn and others. These were recordings mostly of the early 50es ( only one 1949) and the sound was vastly superior. I loved the Brahms, especially the first symphony, but the 3rd was even better. Furtwängler plays the 3rd with flexible tempi, accelerandos and riterdandos. The result was utterly compelling, I got the impression to hear the symphony realy for the first time. I like that, IF it compells me. I love for that matter Bruckners 7th with Jochum and find the much praised Chaily utterly boring.
But these CDs are not on the market. My friend is a member of the German "Furtwängler Gesellschaft". There is also a Furtwängler society in France and in Japan. On the CDs I found the imprint "only for members of the Furtwängler society". This is something I find quite strange. Should Furtwängler be someone for an elitarian society and not for everyone???
But Brahms 3rd ( With the BPO, life) is glorious.
Regards
Martin
Well I fully expect to get a answer from the experts frequenting this thread about a work Furtwangler wrote himself. The second Symphony! Not much of quality recordings around, so I have a question about this recording. I like what I hear, obviously a live recording, but is it any good? The Chicago SO sounds marvelous.
Quote from: Harry on June 18, 2008, 04:49:49 AM
Well I fully expect to get a answer from the experts frequenting this thread about a work Furtwangler wrote himself. The second Symphony! Not much of quality recordings around, so I have a question about this recording. I like what I hear, obviously a live recording, but is it any good? The Chicago SO sounds marvelous.
I think that Todd has said he likes this one. You may want to PM him. :)
Quote from: Howard on June 18, 2008, 05:13:22 AM
I think that Todd has said he likes this one. You may want to PM him. :)
I will
Howard, thanks!
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JqTHdjIbL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
There is a customer review for this on Amazon that states that the EMI version we are familiar with is actually mostly a recording of the dress rehersal and not the actual live performance. He goes on to state that this release by Orfeo is the actual live performance which is far superior.
Is this guy under the influence or do I need to check this out?
Here is a link with the review: http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphony-No-9/dp/B0014Z3OH6/ref=pd_bbs_4?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1222355892&sr=8-4 (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphony-No-9/dp/B0014Z3OH6/ref=pd_bbs_4?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1222355892&sr=8-4)
Well, heck...I'M curious as can be. If anyone has this, can we please get an independent report here? Until I hear evidence, I'm keeping the (March) 1942 LvB 9th at the top of my personal Furtwangler pantheon.
Hmmm...
Dirk
A recent issue of Fanfare (I think July/August) reviews a recording of this famous 1951 ninth and relates a similar story. Not IIRC as dramatic as this Amazon reviewer's claim but I can't be sure until I get hold of my issue (it's at work).
Will get back tomorrow.
Owning both, I can say that the differences are not tremendous. There are clearly differences, though, and that's apparent just by track timings. As to specific bar-by-bar variations, I confess that I've had neither the time nor the inclination to sit down with both and a copy of the score. That seems a bit much. I prefer, however, the Orfeo release because it sounds more natural and seems to capture some of the Festspielhaus acoustic. The EMI GROTC disc is a little more aggressive in comparison.
All that aside, I return, often as not, to the 1954 Lucerne performance (though I've yet to buy the Tahra remaster/SACD) or, when I'm feeling weird, the 1954 Bayreuth performance from earlier that August. I contend that the latter performance, despite suffering from execrable sound, has the best soloists Furtwängler ever got on record. Of course, if the prewar 9th is of interest, one is forced to seek out the 1937 London performance with the Berliners. That equivocation aside, the 1951 performance is nice, but any one of the 1954 sets is nicer.
I believe the story is that the EMI is doctored, consisting of the live recording with parts of other performances added. Orfeo made a clear enough statement about it, but refrains from commenting on the EMI: "For a long time, the unedited recording of the legendary performance on Bayreuth's Green Hill that was broadcast live to the whole of Europe was believed to be lost. It is now being issued by Orfeo in a carefully restored pressing." (see my earlier post HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,415.msg141515.html#msg141515) ) If we are to believe rmrc, there is also a article published in the newsletter of the American Furtwangler Society that supports the editing-by-Legge theory. Purely on instinct, I think it might be true. Legge does seem not an unlikely suspect for tinkering, given his reputation in this, and I always felt the EMI recording actually does feel "disjointed" - the WF effect of long, continuous arches of tension is insufficiently present IMO. I never much liked it and much prefer the Lucerne recording.
Q
Thanks Que, I read this thread awhile back, and I must have forgot that part where you discussed this already.
Sam adams, Que, and the rest:
According to Henry Fogel, the resident Furtwängler expert at Fanfare (and who's the former president of the Chicago Symphony), the EMI is mostly the real performance with segments of rehearsals edited in to tidy up any live performance gaffes (like an early violin entrance in the third movement).
So I'm not sure where that Amazon guy got his information (he doesn't list his sources) but it would appear he's in error. Fogel is a top Furtwängler specialist as far as recordings go so I'm betting he's got it right.
However, the BIGGEST revelation is that the EMI isn't sourced directly from the Bavarian Radio tapes. It's sourced from EMI's own proprietary setup, whereby we now know the actual performance plus rehearsals were recorded.
So apparently then what we have with this Orfeo release (along with a Furtwängler Society of America release which is the subject of Fogel's review in Fanfare) is the first release ever of this performance taken directly from the Bavarian Radio tapes (concurrently with the FSoA release, apparently). In the past EMI had always gone with their own source.
So what this means is the sound quality (according to Fogel) is much improved over any previous EMI release. There is (to quote Fogel) "more clarity, more sonic impact, and a fuller range of orchestral color" on the original Bavarian Radio recording. (Anyone interested should check out the July/August issue of Fanfare, Pg. 83-84).
Might be worth checking out!
I don't think Fogel is still president of the CSO. AFAIK, he is now president of the League of American Orchestras.
You're right. He's retired from the CSO, now.
My mistake.
Hey GMG, I downloaded this "Furtwangler wartime 1942 Beethoven 9", but the title doesn't say which recording it is -- March or April (Hitler's birthday)? Please help if you have both recordings to compare with. Thanks. Here is the first movement of the recording, in 320kbps:
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?in0wymzoddd
timings:
first movement - 17:17
second movement - 11:21
third movement - 20:07
fourth movement - 24:19
Thanks a lot!
Quote from: imperfection on November 11, 2008, 03:14:28 PM
Hey GMG, I downloaded this "Furtwangler wartime 1942 Beethoven 9", but the title doesn't say which recording it is -- March or April (Hitler's birthday)? Please help if you have both recordings to compare with. Thanks.
Quote from: imperfection on November 11, 2008, 03:24:46 PM
Wilhelm Furtwaengler
Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra
Beethoven symphony no.9, "Choral" in D minor, op. 125
Wartime recording, 1942
This is the most apocalyptic, intense and fiery version I've ever heard. Its power is unbelievable...the timpani sound like mortar rounds being fired on the battlefields during the time of the recording. At the closing bars of the finale, the cymbal crashes sound like large caliber machine guns firing--no exaggeration.
The only problem is that I don't know which recording this is, as WF and the BPO made 2 Beethoven ninths in 1942, one in March and one in April. If anyone has both, please head to the "Great recordings" section of this forum and read my thread, I posted the recording there, see if you can help me identify it. Thanks ! :)
Not to worry, there is only one real recording of the 9th from 1942: made on 22-24 March. April is just a film clip - and John Ardoin suggest in his book "The Furtwängler Record" that there are indications that the sound with that clip is actually from the March recording.
BTW that concert on the 19th of April was actually not
on Hitler's birthday, but an
ordinary concert on
the night before. Furtwängler was not aware that Hitler would attend the concert - and thus
making it into a quasi "concert in honour of his birthday" - until shortly before the concert.
Kathrin, Furtwängler's daughter: "
That Nuremberg concert was supposed to be on Hitler's birthday, so my father scheduled it the day before, thinking Hitler would not attend. He was so furious when Hitler came to the concert that he pulled a radiator off the wall. Furtwängler came on the stage and told his musicians to begin right away. But after the concert, Hitler gave him his hand and he had to shake it. If you don't know the story, then it is easy to get the wrong idea from the photo."
Q
Quote from: Que on November 11, 2008, 10:46:39 PM
Not to worry, there is only one real recording of the 9th from 1942: made on 22-24 March. April is just a film clip - and John Ardoin suggest in his book "The Furtwängler Record" that there are indications that the sound with that clip is actually from the March recording.
BTW that concert on the 19th of March was actually not on Hitler's birthday, but an ordinary concert on the night before. Furtwängler was not aware that Hitler would attend the concert - and thus making it into a quasi "concert in honour of his birthday" - until shortly before the concert.
Q
I do not believe this is entirely accurate. In 2004 Archipel released a recording (http://www.amazon.com/Ludwig-van-Beethoven-Symphony-Minor/dp/B0007OP1KI/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1226565441&sr=1-6) of the April 1942 performance. You are correct however that all of the film clips feature the music from the March performance. Here is what Fogel said about the recording in Fanfare:
"
I have listened to the Beethoven 9th on Archipel (ARPCD 0270) which claims to be a first release of a Furtwangler Beethoven Ninth, from April 19, 1942. It appears to be exactly what it claims to be.
I compared it directly with the known wartime performance from a few weeks earlier (March 22-24, 1942), and it is definitely a different performance. But its interpretive outlines are so similar, its force personality so strongly individual, that there can be no doubt it is Furtwangler.
This is the special performance that was given in honor of Hitler's birthday. It is followed by a radio announcement identifying the performers.
Is it worth owning? That depends on the degree of your interest in Furtwangler. In many ways, the sound here is similar to that of the more famous wartime recording, although there is a level of hiss and noise that distracts in soft passages. But the sound has actually more color and bite than the other 1942 performance, though a bit more distortion, particularly in softer passages.
The performance has the same ferocity as the earlier wartime one, except even more so. The final coda is an outburst the likes of which I have never encountered -- it is crazed, almost completely out of control. It must have stunned the audience, because there is a surprising silence before the applause start.
The soloists are for the most part different, only bass Rudolf Watzke is the same. Erna Berger here sings much more beautifully than Tilla Briem ; Helge Rosvaenge is the equal of Peter Anders. The mezzo here is Gertrude Pitzinger, but one hardly remembers the mezzo.
I think serious Furtwangler collectors will want this because of its huge importance as an event in the conductor's life. Michael Tanner's notes discuss the occasion -- how after many years of managing to avoid the Hitler birthday concert, Furtwangler was forced by Goebbels to conduct this one. This is one of the things that has been held against Furtwangler by those who would judge him guilty for his staying in Germany. Without wishing to get into that here -- and I don't -- the fact is that this concert was clearly an event of strong, even overpowering, emotions for the conductor (I hear anger in the conducting, but perhaps that's me), and it makes this performance unique."
As for imperfection's original question, I believe those are the track times from the March performance.
Quote from: purephase on November 12, 2008, 11:48:24 PM
I do not believe this is entirely accurate. In 2004 Archipel released a recording (http://www.amazon.com/Ludwig-van-Beethoven-Symphony-Minor/dp/B0007OP1KI/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1226565441&sr=1-6) of the April 1942 performance. You are correct however that all of the film clips feature the music from the March performance. Here is what Fogel said about the recording in Fanfare:
"I have listened to the Beethoven 9th on Archipel (ARPCD 0270) which claims to be a first release of a Furtwangler Beethoven Ninth, from April 19, 1942. It appears to be exactly what it claims to be.
I compared it directly with the known wartime performance from a few weeks earlier (March 22-24, 1942), and it is definitely a different performance. But its interpretive outlines are so similar, its force personality so strongly individual, that there can be no doubt it is Furtwangler.
Interesting, many thanks. It seems that my data on Furtwängler's recordings is outdated! ;D
I guess I have to hear this myself. After a search on the net I understand that it is claimed to be a private off-the-air recording from the radio broadcast, which would explain its sudden appearance.
BTW are you aware of confirmation from other sources that this is indeed by Furtwängler?
(http://www.eurojapantrading.com/images/CD/ARPCD0270.jpg)
Q
Years ago, when I first got interested in music, I met an old disheveled guy queueing for a cheap Tristan ticket in the gods of the Royal Opera Covent Garden. We got talking and he told me that he had spent his life searching for the greatest performance of Beethoven's third symphony.
Well if you're reading this, old chap, I've found it:
Agreed Mandryka, in that this is a phenomenal Eroica. :)
How does the Opus Kura transfer compare with Melodiya, I wonder?
Quote from: Renfield on January 23, 2009, 10:27:07 AM
Agreed Mandryka, in that this is a phenomenal Eroica. :)
How does the Opus Kura transfer compare with Melodiya, I wonder?
Is that the same one that's in the M&A wartime set?
Quote from: George on January 23, 2009, 10:35:21 AM
Is that the same one that's in the M&A wartime set?
Indeed.
Quote from: George on January 23, 2009, 02:14:14 PM
Sweet, then I got it.
Although the difference in sound quality between M&A and Melodiya is
vast. :o
Quote from: Renfield on January 23, 2009, 02:44:05 PM
Although the difference in sound quality between M&A and Melodiya is vast. :o
With the Melodiya being better?
Quote from: George on January 23, 2009, 02:54:50 PM
With the Melodiya being better?
Hands down. I re-bought the entire contents of that M&A box set on Melodiya, after I realised the difference. (Except for the Beethoven 5th - for some odd reason, given how much I love it in its DG iteration - coupled with the incomplete Bruckner 6th on Melodiya.)
Quote from: Renfield on January 23, 2009, 05:22:12 PM
Hands down. I re-bought the entire contents of that M&A box set on Melodiya, after I realised the difference. (Except for the Beethoven 5th - for some odd reason, given how much I love it in its DG iteration - coupled with the incomplete Bruckner 6th on Melodiya.)
For the war-time recordings Melodiya and Opus Kura, which has issued some of the wartime recordings in transfers from Melodiya LP's, are ahead of the rest by a long stretch. They even top previous efforts by Tahra! Besides, M&A is a label I try to avoid as much as possible anyway - too much tinkering and 2nd rate source material. ::)
I never did an A-B comparison of the same recording on Melodiya and Opus Kura BTW, might be interesting though I do not expect big differences.
Q
If it's not too much trouble, could someone direct me or link to a good source for the Melodiya or Opus Kura issues for the US, specifically for the stuff from the M&A WWII Beethoven set? I see several Melodiya Furtwangler Beethoven CDs on Amazon, but they're OOP and I'm not seeing performance info.
Thanks!
Quote from: jwinter on January 28, 2009, 07:40:05 AM
If it's not too much trouble, could someone direct me or link to a good source for the Melodiya or Opus Kura issues for the US, specifically for the stuff from the M&A WWII Beethoven set? I see several Melodiya Furtwangler Beethoven CDs on Amazon, but they're OOP and I'm not seeing performance info.
Thanks!
Ditto.
The same here too.
I just got this:
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0hh6BMljJzs/SK3MVf7-ptI/AAAAAAAAAjk/fJPiFwydYag/s400/FurtwanglerBrahms.gif)
The fragmentary 1st (finale only, recorded 1945) alone justifies the price tag. I also wish they had included the wartime 3rd here instead of the 1954 one because it is simply more intense, more fiery, more Furtwängler.
Quote from: imperfection on January 28, 2009, 09:12:09 PM
I just got this:
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0hh6BMljJzs/SK3MVf7-ptI/AAAAAAAAAjk/fJPiFwydYag/s400/FurtwanglerBrahms.gif)
The fragmentary 1st (finale only, recorded 1945) alone justifies the price tag. I also wish they had included the wartime 3rd here instead of the 1954 one because it is simply more intense, more fiery, more Furtwängler.
That's a great set, one of my favorites.
Though I'm now wondering about the sound quality -- are the Melodiya masters of the WWII Furtwangler recordings better because they used superior source material (ie stuff from the Russian archives that somebody grabbed when they marched into Berlin in 1945), or is it better remastering technique/technology? (or both?). Or to put it another way, does the improvement show in post-WWII recordings as well, or just the wartime ones?
Quote from: jwinter on January 29, 2009, 06:29:29 AM
That's a great set, one of my favorites.
Though I'm now wondering about the sound quality -- are the Melodiya masters of the WWII Furtwangler recordings better because they used superior source material (ie stuff from the Russian archives that somebody grabbed when they marched into Berlin in 1945), or is it better remastering technique/technology? (or both?). Or to put it another way, does the improvement show in post-WWII recordings as well, or just the wartime ones?
This is just about the wartime recordings - the only ones that Melodiya has ever had access to.
Judging from the recordings both Opus Kura & Melodiya have superior source material. We know what procedure Opus Kura follows: they make transfers of Melodiya LP's that were issued right after the war, when the "confiscated" magnetic tapes were still in prime condition. What Melodiya does is unclear, perhaps they use copies they made earlier of the original tapes (that they have returned some years ago) as BBC Magazine has stated, or maybe they transfer in some cases from LP's as well.
As to remastering technique, both Opus Kura and Melodiya took a restrained approach: little filtering, little tinkering. Be prepared for a "rougher" sound picture, but which is more detailed and more immediate.
As to
post-war recordings my favourite source is Tahra - for the recordings they have issued, of course. And to complete the picture: for the
pre-war (studio) recordings tranferred from '78rpms: Opus Kura.
Q
Quote from: imperfection on January 28, 2009, 09:12:09 PM
I just got this:
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0hh6BMljJzs/SK3MVf7-ptI/AAAAAAAAAjk/fJPiFwydYag/s400/FurtwanglerBrahms.gif)
The fragmentary 1st (finale only, recorded 1945) alone justifies the price tag. I also wish they had included the wartime 3rd here instead of the 1954 one because it is simply more intense, more fiery, more Furtwängler.
I think you're confusing the 3rd & the 4th - there is no wartime 3rd! :)
Q
Quote from: Que on January 29, 2009, 02:33:48 PM
I think you're confusing the 3rd & the 4th - there is no wartime 3rd! :)
Q
There is, as long as
his version of the war ended in 1949. :P
Quote from: Que on January 29, 2009, 02:33:48 PM
I think you're confusing the 3rd & the 4th - there is no wartime 3rd! :)
Q
Really! I swear I heard an ultra-intense 3rd from WF and I thought it was the wartime background that was lending it the extra punch.
Quote from: imperfection on January 29, 2009, 07:51:32 PM
Really! I swear I heard an ultra-intense 3rd from WF and I thought it was the wartime background that was lending it the extra punch.
Furtwängler didn't really need the war to be intense. Obviously, it added some tension to certain pieces on certain occasions (see: Beethoven - Coriolan Overture, Symphony No. 9), but I don't think his conducting being less high-adrenaline later on had much to do with the war ending. :)
While I agree that WF's recordings are often very intense during wartime or not, I do value his 1939-1945 recordings on a different level than his post-war ones. I don't know about you but I get the very strong sense of "Unheil" in those recordings, which makes them extraordinarily and uniquely passionate. Of course there are other "emotional" and "intense" conductors too, but WF during wartime is just unequaled.
If one was looking for good sound however, the recordings made 1950 onwards will have to fit the bill. I remember many saying how they couldn't believe the great sound (for its era) of the 1951 Brahms 1st and 1954 Lucerne Beethoven 9th, for instance.
I hope we are more on topic now and that we will stay that way. $:)
Quote from: imperfection on January 30, 2009, 09:47:39 PM
I hope we are more on topic now and that we will stay that way. $:)
As do I. :D
I do agree that the wartime recordings are interesting, and unique. But I also consider Furtwängler's 1938 BPO
Pathétique, for instance, quite indispensable. Later on, a thing to consider was Furtwängler's personal circumstances, his health problems and loss of hearing - not to mention the unremitting (for Furtwängler) competition posed by someone called Herbert von Karajan.
That having been said, even on a a purely musical ground, his 1949 Brahms 3rd is quite intense, you said it yourself, and that's after the war. :)
As for my personal view, it is very much Furtwängler's "late" period that I find his most rewarding:
The 1949 and 1954 Brahms 3rd, the 1951 Brahms 1st, the 1954 Beethoven 5th (though along with the 1943 account, which was probably his best) and 9th (of course), as well as his post-war Wagner, to name a few recordings, are veritable treasures. Not to mention his Salzburg Festival recordings, including a fantastic 1951 Bruckner 5th; although for Bruckner in specific, the war-time material is quite impossible to ignore.
Edit:
Que, as Furtwängler expert-in-residence, correct me if I'm wrong with any of those dates! ;)
Quote from: Renfield on January 30, 2009, 10:14:15 PM
As do I. :D
I do agree that the wartime recordings are interesting, and unique. But I also consider Furtwängler's 1938 BPO Pathétique, for instance, quite indispensable. Later on, a thing to consider was Furtwängler's personal circumstances, his health problems and loss of hearing - not to mention the unremitting (for Furtwängler) competition posed by someone called Herbert von Karajan.
That having been said, even on a a purely musical ground, his 1949 Brahms 3rd is quite intense, you said it yourself, and that's after the war. :)
As for my personal view, it is very much Furtwängler's "late" period that I find his most rewarding:
The 1949 and 1954 Brahms 3rd, the 1951 Brahms 1st, the 1954 Beethoven 5th (though along with the 1943 account, which was probably his best) and 9th (of course), as well as his post-war Wagner, to name a few recordings, are veritable treasures. Not to mention his Salzburg Festival recordings, including a fantastic 1951 Bruckner 5th; although for Bruckner in specific, the war-time material is quite impossible to ignore.
Edit: Que, as Furtwängler expert-in-residence, correct me if I'm wrong with any of those dates! ;)
Slightly OT: Any idea why he didn't want Karajan to succeed him?
Quote from: imperfection on January 30, 2009, 11:59:40 PM
Slightly OT: Any idea why he didn't want Karajan to succeed him?
His problem wasn't with succession, he
knew Karajan would succeed him. His problem was Karajan
superseding him while he was still around, exactly because he understood Karajan's ability. Insecurity is an all too human trait, even if you're Wilhelm Furtwängler. :)
I had already a Furtwängler Maestro classico box ( 10 CDs), of which I liked most Bruckners 9th. But these are old recordings. Some time later I met a person who was member of the Furtwängler society. He gave me some Furtwängler recordings as a present and I was very gratefull. Most important for me was then a recording of Brahms 3rd from 1953. First of all this recording has very acceptable sound - which is not unimportant for me. But as an interpretation this is really great. It has flexible tempi in a very convincing way. I like for example also Jochum playing Bruckners 7th with similar flexible tempi. Brahms 3rd with Furtwängler was then completely refreshing, it was as if listening to this music for the first time.
Quote from: jwinter on January 28, 2009, 07:40:05 AM
If it's not too much trouble, could someone direct me or link to a good source for the Melodiya or Opus Kura issues for the US, specifically for the stuff from the M&A WWII Beethoven set? I see several Melodiya Furtwangler Beethoven CDs on Amazon, but they're OOP and I'm not seeing performance info.
Thanks!
FYI, I just ordered this from Tower.com -- good price, and I verified at another site that this is indeed the VPO December 1944 Eroica, as in the M&A set. I'll try to post some impressions on the transfers when it arrives...
(http://i43.tower.com/images/mm106646595/beethoven-symphony-no-3-vpo-furtwangler-cd-cover-art.jpg)
Quote from: Renfield on January 31, 2009, 01:03:19 AM
His problem wasn't with succession, he knew Karajan would succeed him. His problem was Karajan superseding him while he was still around, exactly because he understood Karajan's ability. Insecurity is an all too human trait, even if you're Wilhelm Furtwängler. :)
It's not as simple as mere insecurity. Furtwängler also vastly disagreed with the stylistic shift towards a slick objectivism that Karajan represented. By contrast Furtwängler effusievly praised conductors who came from the same interpretive line of thought as he did, such as Carl Schuricht.
JUST saw this thread... ::) Although I can't claim to have listened to all, or even a quarter of all available Furtwängler recordings, I can readily attest my favourites are the 1943 Vienna Eroica and 15.04.1949 Berlin Bruckner 8 (the Titania Palast one, not the rehearsal of the day before).
Confession: I didn't read all the pages of this thread either ;D.
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on February 03, 2009, 07:42:48 PM
15.04.1949 Berlin Bruckner 8 (the Titania Palast one, not the rehearsal of the day before).
Does there exist any OK remastering of this Bruckner 8?
I'm following this discussion over transfers with much interest as I have owned the M&A set for some time. Interestingly (FWIW), a review on Amazon alludes to problems with the Opus Kura transfer on this particular release:
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphony-No-9-Choral/dp/B000777ISI/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1233734435&sr=1-4
Quote from: O Mensch on February 03, 2009, 07:25:09 PM
It's not as simple as mere insecurity. Furtwängler also vastly disagreed with the stylistic shift towards a slick objectivism that Karajan represented. By contrast Furtwängler effusievly praised conductors who came from the same interpretive line of thought as he did, such as Carl Schuricht.
Is that on record?
I'm asking because
Furtwängler's stylistic influence on Karajan's conducting* is quite strong.
(Though less so in the years the two coincided, admittedly.)
*Together with Toscanini's, of course. I seem to vaguely remember Karajan himself mentioning them in the same breath as conductors he admired, but I can't offer a source, at present.
Edit: Welcome aboard,
Lilas! :P Is the 8th you speak of not the one also on Testament, or am I getting my dates mixed up?
There are two Furtwängler 8ths from April 1949. On the 14th they played a for a radio broadcast. It may have also been intended as a 'dress rehearsal' for the following day's concert. This was done in the Gemeindhaus, Berlin and the recording is issued on Testament. The April 15th concert was done at the Titania Palast. The differences between the two interpretations are nicely detailed in the Testament liner notes. Basically the concert finds the musicians practically on fire, wheras the studio (Gemeindhaus) performance is slightly more settled (but still remarkable). Also, the sound from the Titania Palast is better. I have the Arkadia release and have no idea if it's an 'ok' remastering. Obviously allowances have to be made for the sound - after all it's 60 years old - as well as for the audience "participation". I wonder if there mas much heating in Germany at the time.
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on February 04, 2009, 06:54:38 AM
There are two Furtwängler 8ths from April 1949. On the 14th they played a for a radio broadcast. It may have also been intended as a 'dress rehearsal' for the following day's concert. This was done in the Gemeindhaus, Berlin and the recording is issued on Testament. The April 15th concert was done at the Titania Palast. The differences between the two interpretations are nicely detailed in the Testament liner notes. Basically the concert finds the musicians practically on fire, wheras the studio (Gemeindhaus) performance is slightly more settled (but still remarkable). Also, the sound from the Titania Palast is better. I have the Arkadia release and have no idea if it's an 'ok' remastering. Obviously allowances have to be made for the sound - after all it's 60 years old - as well as for the audience "participation". I wonder if there mas much heating in Germany at the time.
I see. Thanks for that tidbit; I'll keep an eye out for the "concert" 1949. :) Speaking of "fire", there's also a war-time BPO 8th that I've been trying to track down for some time. But even with just the quite awe-inspiring 1944 VPO 8th, I'm quite covered. 8)
Quote from: Peregrine on February 03, 2009, 11:02:42 PM
I'm following this discussion over transfers with much interest as I have owned the M&A set for some time. Interestingly (FWIW), a review on Amazon alludes to problems with the Opus Kura transfer on this particular release:
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphony-No-9-Choral/dp/B000777ISI/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1233734435&sr=1-4
The problems mentioned - wavering in pitch and overload in loud passages - are
in the original recording.
Note the 2nd comment:
Before discussing the performance, I should like to say that no other issue of this performance has the fullness of sound as this Opus Kura transfer, made, I understand, from Melodiya LP sources, which derive from the original RRG tapes. There is still some distortion in the First Movement, but it is much reduced and the sound has an absence of shrillness quite unlike other transfers. I do not have the Opus Kura issue of the LvB 9th from '42, but the Melodiya issue, which I can recommend. At least it is recommendable to my standards, if you're looking for smooth - this is not it. My earlier comments on the Melodiya transfer are to be found
HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,415.msg111439.html#msg111439).
Q
Quote from: Que on February 04, 2009, 10:21:41 AM
The problems mentioned - wavering in pitch and overload in loud passages - are in the original recording.
Note the 2nd comment: Before discussing the performance, I should like to say that no other issue of this performance has the fullness of sound as this Opus Kura transfer, made, I understand, from Melodiya LP sources, which derive from the original RRG tapes. There is still some distortion in the First Movement, but it is much reduced and the sound has an absence of shrillness quite unlike other transfers.
I do not have the Opus Kura issue of the LvB 9th from '42, but the Melodiya issue, which I can recommend. At least it is recommendable to my standards, if you're looking for smooth - this is not it. My earlier comments on the Melodiya transfer are to be found HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,415.msg111439.html#msg111439).
Q
Cheers, Que. I notice it mentions all this in the notes to the M&A release - the pitch problems with the originals, should have checked!
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41J-6MDpJbL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
I bought this thinking that it was the same Eroica as in the Music & Arts WWII set. The sound is greatly improved over Music & Arts, as good as some of his later Beethoven released on EMI. I now need to comparatively listen and verify that it's the same performance, though. The Music & Arts is listed as Dec 20 1944, while the Melodiya is listed as Dec 16 1944. The timings are close, but there are differences of around 10 - 20 seconds in each movement -- could be slight variations in the tape speed or editing I suppose. Anybody know for sure if there's more than one Furtwangler Vienna Dec 1944 Eroica? Don't suppose the Melodiya is a tape of a rehearsal?
Quote from: jwinter on February 20, 2009, 10:31:48 AM
I bought this thinking that it was the same Eroica as in the Music & Arts WWII set. The sound is greatly improved over Music & Arts, as good as some of his later Beethoven released on EMI. I now need to comparatively listen and verify that it's the same performance, though. The Music & Arts is listed as Dec 20 1944, while the Melodiya is listed as Dec 16 1944. The timings are close, but there are differences of around 10 - 20 seconds in each movement -- could be slight variations in the tape speed or editing I suppose. Anybody know for sure if there's more than one Furtwangler Vienna Dec 1944 Eroica? Don't suppose the Melodiya is a tape of a rehearsal?
There is only one '44 Eroïca as far as I know. John Ardoin dates it in his "The Furtwängler Record" as recorded on 19 and 20 december.
Opus Kura (http://www.opuskura.com/cat_notes_e.htm#7026_3)notes incorrect pitch in the original tapes - higher, so shorter timings. Maybe that explains the difference in timings.
Q
Quote from: jwinter on February 20, 2009, 10:31:48 AM
Anybody know for sure if there's more than one Furtwangler Vienna Dec 1944 Eroica? Don't suppose the Melodiya is a tape of a rehearsal?
Youngrok Lee's Discography of Furtwangler (http://fischer.hosting.paran.com/music/Furtwangler/furtwangler-discography.htm) agrees with what Que said above (they list only one 1944 recording of the Eroica):
Symphony No.3 in E flat major, op.55, 'Eroica'1) 19th(or 16~20th) Dec. 1944, Musikvereinsaal, Wien * with Wiener Philharmoniker
* CD ; Tahra FURT 1031 / FURT 1034~39(6 set) / FURT 1060~62(3 set), Preiser PRCD 90251, Toshiba CE28 5746 / TOCE 8518 / TOCE 3730, Music and Arts CD 814 / CD 942(5 set) / CD 4049(4 set), Melodiya MEL 10 00710 / MEL 10 01106, Russian CD RCD 25001, Documents LV 919.20, Priceless D 16395, Bayer DaCapo BR 200002, Historical Performers (JP) HP 2, Grand Slam GS 2005(JP), Green Door Publishing GDCL 0001(JP), Delta DCCA 0029(JP), Aura Classics AUR 262(misdated 31st Aug. Notes ] Original Melodiya, Turnabout and Documents editions incorrectly name orchestra as BPO Notes by Y.Lee ] Grand Slam & Delta release is transferred from Urania C 7095(LP). The date in M&A 4049 19 & 20th. RCD 25004, Melodiya MEL 10 00713, Music and Arts CD 824 / CD 4049(4 set), Green Door Musical Publishing GDWF 2001(JP), Opus Kura OPK 7002
Thanks for that info, guys. I have to say, I'm quite surprised by how good this sounds. Melodiya's source much have been in much better shape. :)
Quote from: jwinter on February 20, 2009, 12:29:54 PM
Thanks for that info, guys. I have to say, I'm quite surprised by how good this sounds. Melodiya's source much have been in much better shape. :)
German sound engineering at the time, pioneering with taped recordings, was incredibly advanced. So the war-time recordings actually were of superb quality, with the notable exception of the '42 LvB 9th.
Unfortunately with the decay of the magnetic tapes much of this quality was lost. My conclusion is that taking the recordings from sources that were taken from the original tapes when they were still in good condition - Melodiya LP's or early tape copies - delivers the best result. The original tapes, later copies or umptieth generation copies (copies from copies), used by DG and M&A for example, fall short. Though Tahra also used the original tapes (I have that set) and really made the most of it - a result I could have lived with were it not for the better options available on Opus Kura and Melodiya. The problem is that the Bruckner 9th hasn't surfaced yet... My hopes are on Opus Kura.
Q
Has this set that has a May 5th release date been mentioned yet?
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/220926.jpg)
LEGENDARY RECORDINGS: Quality feature 1st Master Release - Live in Berlin (1947 - 1954) The production is part of our series "Legendary Recordings"and bears the quality feature "1st Master Release". This term stands for the excellent quality of archival productions at audite. For all historical publications at audite are based, without exception, on the original tapes from broadcasting archives. In general these are the original analogue tapes, which attain an astonishingly high quality, even measured by today's standards, with their tape speed of up to 76 cm/sec. The remastering - professionally competent and sensitively applied - also uncovers previously hidden details of the interpretations. Thus, a sound of superior quality results. CD publications based on private recordings from broadcasts or old shellac records cannot be compared with these. The majority of the concerts given by Wilhelm Furtwängler and the Berlin Philharmonic between 1947 and 1954 were recorded by the RIAS Berlin; all of these recordings are documented in this boxed set. The original tapes from the RIAS archives have been made available for the fi rst time for this edition so these CDs also offer unsurpassed technical quality. Furthermore, some of the recordings are presented for the very first time, such as the Fortner Violin Concerto with Gerhard Taschner. These RIAS recordings are documents of historical value: they contain a major part of Furtwängler's late oeuvre as a conductor, which was characterized by a high level of focus in different respects. Focus on repertoire which has at its core the symphonic works of Beethoven, Brahms and Bruckner and is supplemented by works by Bach and Handel and also by topical composers of the time, including Hindemith, Blacher and Fortner: artists who were counted amongst the members of "moderate modernism" and who were not perceived to have been tainted by the cultural politics of the National Socialists. Focus was also a guiding principle in Furtwängler's concert programmes which always feature a particular idea. His interpretations also demonstrate extremely high levels of focus: concentration and focus for him meant a contemporary decoding, a re-creation, which would express the fundamental content of a work. A number of works - the Third, Fifth and Sixth Symphonies by Ludwig van Beethoven as well as Johannes Brahms' Third Symphony - are included in two interpretations. They reveal how Furtwängler was able to accentuate different aspects of a work whilst maintaining the same, clear basic conception - and how the actual interpretation depended on the context of the particular programme.
Includes a recording of composer Werner Egk and his students interviewing Furtwängler.
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?ordertag=Condrecom4103-215447&album_id=220926
And anyone here familiar with the Audite label?
Audite is a very good label indeed; Kubelik's excellent live Mahler recordings are on it, as are some recent exclusive Karajan releases.
In fact, I'd seen the above release in their site (http://www.audite.de/index.php?bnm=181), but I wasn't sure about their sources.
However, the above information means I am definitely getting my hands on that set - many thanks! :D
Quote from: Renfield on April 26, 2009, 07:51:50 AM
Audite is a very good label indeed; Kubelik's excellent live Mahler recordings are on it, as are some recent exclusive Karajan releases.
In fact, I'd seen the above release in their site (http://www.audite.de/index.php?bnm=181), but I wasn't sure about their sources.
However, the above information means I am definitely getting my hands on that set - many thanks! :D
You are welcome. About time a lent a hand to someone here as I always seem to be on the receiving end. :)
Great discovery Bill! :)
I will be getting that, although I have the essential LvB already on Tahra. Tahra also used the original RIAS tapes BTW, so take the "being first" claim by Audite with a pinch of salt. (And I don't understand what the comparion with "shellac" has to do with it - these are all recordings from the post-shellac era.. ::)) But I believe Tahra did not issue all of it, and certainly not for that price!
Q
I am also still interested in dabbling into the Melodiya as well. Just need to sit down, see what I have, and go from there. Sounds that jwinter found them better than the M&A, so repeats may not factor in in the end.
Can someone recommend some Furtwangler's recordings on the Naxos Historical label? I just realized I ordered close 30 of these CD's from MDT but there were no Furtwangler's CD's in my two previous orders ...
Quote from: purephase on November 12, 2008, 11:48:24 PM
I do not believe this is entirely accurate. In 2004 Archipel released a recording (http://www.amazon.com/Ludwig-van-Beethoven-Symphony-Minor/dp/B0007OP1KI/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1226565441&sr=1-6) of the April 1942 performance. You are correct however that all of the film clips feature the music from the March performance. Here is what Fogel said about the recording in Fanfare:
"I have listened to the Beethoven 9th on Archipel (ARPCD 0270) which claims to be a first release of a Furtwangler Beethoven Ninth, from April 19, 1942. It appears to be exactly what it claims to be.
I compared it directly with the known wartime performance from a few weeks earlier (March 22-24, 1942), and it is definitely a different performance. But its interpretive outlines are so similar, its force personality so strongly individual, that there can be no doubt it is Furtwangler.
This is the special performance that was given in honor of Hitler's birthday. It is followed by a radio announcement identifying the performers.
Is it worth owning? That depends on the degree of your interest in Furtwangler. In many ways, the sound here is similar to that of the more famous wartime recording, although there is a level of hiss and noise that distracts in soft passages. But the sound has actually more color and bite than the other 1942 performance, though a bit more distortion, particularly in softer passages.
The performance has the same ferocity as the earlier wartime one, except even more so. The final coda is an outburst the likes of which I have never encountered -- it is crazed, almost completely out of control. It must have stunned the audience, because there is a surprising silence before the applause start.
The soloists are for the most part different, only bass Rudolf Watzke is the same. Erna Berger here sings much more beautifully than Tilla Briem ; Helge Rosvaenge is the equal of Peter Anders. The mezzo here is Gertrude Pitzinger, but one hardly remembers the mezzo.
I think serious Furtwangler collectors will want this because of its huge importance as an event in the conductor's life. Michael Tanner's notes discuss the occasion -- how after many years of managing to avoid the Hitler birthday concert, Furtwangler was forced by Goebbels to conduct this one. This is one of the things that has been held against Furtwangler by those who would judge him guilty for his staying in Germany. Without wishing to get into that here -- and I don't -- the fact is that this concert was clearly an event of strong, even overpowering, emotions for the conductor (I hear anger in the conducting, but perhaps that's me), and it makes this performance unique."
(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/40/551440.jpg)
I always thought Archipel a pirate's label, but the transfer from this private off-the-air recording on "Decelith" 78 rpm discs has been expertly done by Christian Zwarg, producer of his own label
Truesound Transfers (http://www.truesoundtransfers.de/). The original radio recording must have been of good quality - a full, detailed soundframe with ample depth. But the sound - as has come to us here - has two drawbacks: it is rather distant, has lack of presence, and there is distortion, tonal instability - the woodwinds and the upper strings shake and shiver. Fogel, quoted above, acknowledges this but also notes that the sound has color and bite. It has, but certainly not more so than the '44 recording, as he also states. Judging from this comment Fogel has probably never heard the transfer on Melodiya of the '44.
As to the performance: I find it more straight forward, straight laced, than the '44 performance. The '44 performance is IMO emotionally more intense and engaging, and it has more flexibility by means of Furtwängler's famous use of rubato, the '42 has much more moments of "abruptness". Fogel finds the '42 even more ferocious. I don't know, in its abruptness and straightness it is harder pressed in the climaxes, but the timings confirm my impression: except for the 3rd movement, it's actually
slower than the '44 performance.
All in all, I find this performance less inspired than the '44, which admittedly is emotionally too heavy, but at the same time displays to greater extent Furtwängler's sensitivities, including his use of rubato. And it has clear disadvantages in terms of sound, though an expert job as been done on that. Primarily for Furtwängler enthusiasts and completists, for others the '54 Lucerne and the '44 performances should take priority.
Q
There is an hour long segment on todays CD review on BBC radio 3 devoted to Furtwangler Audite box, plenty of excerpts and McGregor and Cowan are pretty sane hosts.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00m0cqq
starts about hour into the programe, real player (or alternative) needed.
Warning: not about his recordings.
Does anyone have an opinion about this film? It is about an American officer vainly trying to prove that Furtwangler was a member of the Nazi party. It doesn't really deal with his music (his talent is a "given"), but does deal with the interface of art and politics.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519G5DBCE4L.jpg)
Quote from: Harpo on August 08, 2009, 11:51:39 AM
Warning: not about his recordings.
Does anyone have an opinion about this film? It is about an American officer vainly trying to prove that Furtwangler was a member of the Nazi party. It doesn't really deal with his music (his talent is a "given"), but does deal with the interface of art and politics.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519G5DBCE4L.jpg)
As I said in the Movies about music and musicians (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,12248.0.html) thread on the General forum:
Quote from: O Mensch on July 28, 2009, 05:57:02 AM
Taking Sides was interesting, but more for its legal and moral issues than for the musical aspects (notwithstanding the fine contributions from Barenboim and the Staatskapelle Berlin). Here at least Keitel's character admits that he doesn't 'get' what makes Furtwängler Furtwängler. That being said, the movie doesn't really help the viewer 'get' it either. Stellan Skarsgard's expressionless portrayal of Furtwängler I found pretty flat and unconvincing. What the movie does very well is give a very realistic portrayal of the opportunistic atmosphere of occupied Germany with all the German supplicants in Keitel's office claiming that they appreciated the martyrs of Operation Valkyrie etc. and going out of their way to acknowledge Keitel's secretary who is an offspring of one of the conspirators. It's a simultaneously hilarious and scary window into spineless human psyche.
Recently found this in a used shop. A set of interesting recordings here. In fact the cd is titled: Wilhelm Furtwängler Conducts Concert Performances of Unusual Repertoire
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21BCWNCNP2L._SL500_AA130_.jpg)
• Nocturnes, for female chorus & orchestra, L. 91 Fêtes
Composed by Claude Debussy
Performed by Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra May, 1951
• Mouvement symphonique No. 3, for orchestra, H83
Composed by Arthur Honegger
Performed by Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra Feb., 1952
• Rhapsodie espagnole, for orchestra (or 2 pianos)
Composed by Maurice Ravel
Performed by Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra Oct., 1951.
• Metamorphosen, study for 23 solo strings, o.Op. 142 (TrV 290, AV 142)
Composed by Richard Strauss
Performed by Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra Oct., 1947.
Wilhelm Furtwangler died exactly 55 years- ago, on 30 November 1954.
I still remember vividly the impression of listening to him (on record) for the first time. The sonics could not compare to my "new" DG HI-FI Karajan LPs. But there was something truly special in those old sounding recordings I never had experienced before. And even today I can't really explain what it is. Over the years I played those Karajan's less and less. But I continued to listen to Furtwangler, searching for the same hypnotic magic he injected in his performances.
"En hommage", I am listening to one of his recordings while reading some of his 1948 interviews. And there is a small passage I can't resist to (freely) translate:
" It was not the 'technique' of a Mozart or Beethoven (or later a Paganini or Liszt) that startled their contemporaries. It was, in each time, the character the technique expressed, which was intimately related to their message. But latter the technique turned into an ability, without any organic connection to the character it should serve – something you can acquire at will by any appropriate training. And it is this emancipation of the technique that troubles the interpretation:it shouldn't be the question of technique; but the dependence of the musical technique on the spirit of the music itself." Wilhelm Furtwangler
(http://www.furtwaengler-gesellschaft.de/files/images/furtwaengler.gif)
(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/9581491.jpg)
Could anyone having this release tell me the name of restoration engineer and restoration date, or production date, or whatever is given?
I'm asking because I chanced upon older Melodiya CD release which I never knew existed and which gives 1993 as production date and V. Parfionova as restoration engineer, so I'm curious if it's the same transfer or they did another for the recent release.
You may wish to PM Que if you don't get a response, Drasko, as I believe he may have that CD.
Drasko, there is a chance I have this in a stack of unripped discs somewhere.
I will investigate.
Quote from: George on February 24, 2010, 03:36:24 AM
You may wish to PM Que if you don't get a response, Drasko, as I believe he may have that CD.
Alas, I have the transfer on Opus Kura, which was taken from an early postwar Melodiya LP BTW. I can safely reccomened that Opus Kura issue, but sofar my expierences with the new Melodiya CD issues have been as good.
Q
A DVD titled "Great Conductors of the Third Reich" (Bel Canto Society #BCSD0052), features a number of conductors from the Nazi period, including excerpts of Furtwangler conducting Beethoven's 9th (19/4/42) & Die Meistersinger Overture (Feb.1942). Other conductors featured are Max von Schillings,Leo Blech,Karl Bohm, Herbert von Karajan, Hans Knappertsbusch, & Clemens Krauss. The B&W film is patchy in parts, but worth having, if just for historical reasons.
Furtwangler's art must also extend to his compositions. His three Symphonies, Piano Concerto, Te deum, Violin Sonatas & Piano Quintet are available on Cd. If you like Bruckner & Mahler and big romantic works, these will fill the bill. His mastery of orchestral writing can not be disputed. To give you an idea, the 3rd symphony is the shortest at 65', the 2nd at 82' the longest, the Piano concerto at 62', Violin Sonata no2 at 48' & Piano Quintette at 66'
I first became aware of Furtwangler the composer, when I saw his Symphony no2 listed in the Deutsche Grammophon catalogue in the 1950's, and this recording with Furtwangler as conductor & the Berlin Philharmonic, is, for me the definitive interpretation. It has been re-issued on Deutsche Grammophon CD #457 722-2 & includes Schumann's 4th Symphony.
Aurelius.
Quote from: Drasko on February 24, 2010, 03:32:18 AM
(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/9581491.jpg)
Could anyone having this release tell me the name of restoration engineer and restoration date, or production date, or whatever is given?
I'm asking because I chanced upon older Melodiya CD release which I never knew existed and which gives 1993 as production date and V. Parfionova as restoration engineer, so I'm curious if it's the same transfer or they did another for the recent release.
The Bruckner 5th notes refer "Remastering by V.Parfionova". There is no clear date for the remastering. The inside notes (for the all Melodyia edition) are signed P.Gruenberg and dated 1993. The actual Melodyia edition is dated 2006.
Comments much appreciated on the Hansen/Furtwangler Beethoven PC4, before I buy. How is the sound? How is the performance? What is the best transfer?
You know the sort of thing.
Quote from: ccar on August 18, 2010, 04:57:51 AM
The Bruckner 5th notes refer "Remastering by V.Parfionova". There is no clear date for the remastering. The inside notes (for the all Melodyia edition) are signed P.Gruenberg and dated 1993. The actual Melodyia edition is dated 2006.
Thank you. I think it's relatively safe guess that it is the same transfer on both releases.
Quote from: Mandryka on August 18, 2010, 05:21:41 AM
Comments much appreciated on the Hansen/Furtwangler Beethoven PC4, before I buy. How is the sound? How is the performance? What is the best transfer?
You know the sort of thing.
There is some low frequency distortion but for a 1943 live recording the sound is quite reasonable. You get most of the piano colors and the orchestra is more behind but still present. I prefer the Melodiya edition - the sound is more vivid and less filtered.
For me, this is an impressive reading - both from Hansen and Furtwangler. But don't expect a dreamy poetic Beethoven. Copying the famous Yudina saying this is indeed a "war performance". You almost feel the fire coming from the piano and the orchestra.
You may get the feeling in youtube but the sound there is lousy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcHzmXjq-JI&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcHzmXjq-JI&feature=related)
(http://www.villalobos.ca/previous/ricardo7.gif) (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/melodiyamelcd1001113.jpg)
Furtwangler seems to be very popular here. Are any of you familiar with Peter Gutmann's website? He wrote a fairly lengthy essay on Furtwangler (his favorite conductor). You will learn to your dismay, I hope, that some members of the U. S. Military Command that took over Germany after the end of the war were particularly nasty with Herr Furtwangler and many other German musicians, scientists, scholars, regardless if they were collaborators or not-seizing their houses, their possessions, prohibiting them to work, etc.
Quote from: Bogey on February 19, 2011, 08:18:05 PM
Thanks, Que for the Stokowski leads. Speaking of which, I believe you rec. this one to me many moons back:
Installment #7
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Llh4n1tYL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Beethoven Symphony No. 4
Recorded live in Berlin, 1943
As David pointed out on his 4th Symphony thread, this one gets is underrated probably due to it getting buried by the 3rd and 5th that envelope it. However, when given to the likes of Furtwängler, the passion he infuses into it reminds you that it holds its own with LvB's iconic symphonies. I also have this on the Music a& Arts label (which I am spinning now), but the Melodia above is allowed to breathe a bit more and there seems to be less noise reduction. Also, Que, can you check something for me. The M&A has the 4th being recorded on June 27 and 30th, while the Melodia just notes the 27th. The timings are about the same and the only difference is that they probably transferred a few more seconds here and there.
I think you have hit upon something interesting,
Bill! :) I was not aware of this before, BTW.
Quoting John Ardoin's "The Furtwängler Record":
There has been some confusion surrounding the 1943 performances. They derive from two sources: a studio performance an a broadcast performance with audience. The DG LP issue is of the complete performance with an audience, while Melodiya issued a hybrid version consisting of the first movements drawn from the live performances and the last two from the studio session. It was not until 1988, when many of the Furtwängler master tapes were returned from Russia, that the complete live performance could finally be heard, issued on CD by DG. Of the two it is this one that is of greater interest and authority.From
Opus Kura's website (//http://), who issued - according to them - the broadcast version:
Beethoven's Symphony No. 4 on CD OPK7002 was recorded for broadcast in the old Philharmonic hall on June 28 or 30th, 1943. Two or more copy tapes were probably created; U.S. VOX bought one of the tapes and issued it on LP in 1952 (PL7210). At least one tape was taken (along with many other RRG tapes) to the Soviet Union, and issued on Melodiya LP after 1956; their first publication was on the blue torch label GOCT 5289-56. Deutsche Grammophon acquired yet another copy tape which they published on LP in 1962 (LPM 18817). Melodiya then stopped manufacturing LPs of the broadcast performance and instead issued a hybrid version made from a broadcast performance of the 1st and 2nd movements and live recordings of the 3rd and 4th movements.
A complete live recording was eventually issued around 1973. The black label LP and later CD (MEL CD 1000719) which sold predominantly in Japan, were from such a source. This live performance was also included among the tapes the Russians returned to Sender Freies Berlin in 1987 , and first published by DG in 1989. The DG tape has been frequently re-issued in Japan on Polidor CDs (most recently on POCG-9485). There appears to have been no reissue of the broadcast performance since it was published by Turnabout LP (from the VOX tape) in 1971 (TV 4344).So there are three versions roaming around: a live one, a broadcast version recorded without an audience and a hybrid version. Opus Kura is well informed on the topic of Melodiya issues, so I take their word for it that Melodiya issued
all three versions and that Opus Kura issued a transfer of the LP issue of the broadcast version.
Melodiya indicates that they used the live version for the CD issue - dated the 27th. Hopefully comparing timings might help to figure out what's what.
OPUS KURA
1. 11'14"
2. 12'11"
3. 5'40"
4. 7'00"
| MELODIYA
1. 11'03"
2. 11'49"
3. 5'29"
4. 6'49" |
All timings are different and Melodiya's timings all below Opus Kura, which might indicate that indeed the 1st one is the broadcast recording and the 2nd the live one - since Furtwängler live timings are in my experince generally quicker.
Bill, could you post the M&A timings? If they indicate two dates, it might be the hybrid version?
I'm glad you brought it up. Because ever since I got the Melodiya I had the feeling that it was different from the Opus Kura both aurally and as a performance but I couldn't figure out why because I thought it was the same performance (Opus Kura doesn't give a date on the CD itself). Now I know why! I'll have to check the individual movements.
Q
Quote from: Que on February 20, 2011, 01:01:54 AM
I think you have hit upon something interesting, Bill! :) I was not aware of this before, BTW.
Quoting John Ardoin's "The Furtwängler Record":
There has been some confusion surrounding the 1943 performances. They derive from two sources: a studio performance an a broadcast performance with audience. The DG LP issue is of the complete performance with an audience, while Melodiya issued a hybrid version consisting of the first movements drawn from the live performances and the last two from the studio session. It was not until 1988, when many of the Furtwängler master tapes were returned from Russia, that the complete live performance could finally be heard, issued on CD by DG. Of the two it is this one that is of greater interest and authority.
From Opus Kura's website (//http://), who issued - according to them - the broadcast version:
Beethoven's Symphony No. 4 on CD OPK7002 was recorded for broadcast in the old Philharmonic hall on June 28 or 30th, 1943. Two or more copy tapes were probably created; U.S. VOX bought one of the tapes and issued it on LP in 1952 (PL7210). At least one tape was taken (along with many other RRG tapes) to the Soviet Union, and issued on Melodiya LP after 1956; their first publication was on the blue torch label GOCT 5289-56. Deutsche Grammophon acquired yet another copy tape which they published on LP in 1962 (LPM 18817). Melodiya then stopped manufacturing LPs of the broadcast performance and instead issued a hybrid version made from a broadcast performance of the 1st and 2nd movements and live recordings of the 3rd and 4th movements.
A complete live recording was eventually issued around 1973. The black label LP and later CD (MEL CD 1000719) which sold predominantly in Japan, were from such a source. This live performance was also included among the tapes the Russians returned to Sender Freies Berlin in 1987 , and first published by DG in 1989. The DG tape has been frequently re-issued in Japan on Polidor CDs (most recently on POCG-9485). There appears to have been no reissue of the broadcast performance since it was published by Turnabout LP (from the VOX tape) in 1971 (TV 4344).
So there are three versions roaming around: a live one, a broadcast version recorded without an audience and a hybrid version. Opus Kura is well informed on the topic of Melodiya issues, so I take their word for it that Melodiya issued all three versions and that Opus Kura issued a transfer of the LP issue of the broadcast version.
Melodiya indicates that they used the live version for the CD issue - dated the 27th. Hopefully comparing timings might help to figure out what's what.
OPUS KURA
1. 11'14"
2. 12'11"
3. 5'40"
4. 7'00"
| MELODIYA
1. 11'03"
2. 11'49"
3. 5'29"
4. 6'49" |
All timings are different and Melodiya's timings all below Opus Kura, which might indicate that indeed the 1st one is the broadcast recording and the 2nd the live one - since Furtwängler live timings are in my experince generally quicker. Bill, could you post the M&A timings? If they indicate two dates, it might be the hybrid version?
I'm glad you brought it up. Because ever since I got the Melodiya I had the feeling that it was different from the Opus Kura both aurally and as a performance but I couldn't figure out why because I thought it was the same performance (Opus Kura doesn't give a date on the CD itself). Now I know why! I'll have to check the individual movements.
Q
Awesome research here, my friend. Here are the Music and Arts' timings:
1. 11:09
2. 11:57
3. 5:33
4. 6:56
So, is your Opus Kura without audience sound (coughs and such)?
I just ordered this CD late last week and am looking forward to listen to it ...
(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/musicartsmacd1218.jpg)
Quote from: Coopmv on February 20, 2011, 08:24:39 AM
I just ordered this CD late last week and am looking forward to listen to it ...
(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/musicartsmacd1218.jpg)
Coolness, Stuart!
I rolled this one out today:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41mvxKEDmnL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Went with No. 3 from 1944.
Quote from: Bogey on February 20, 2011, 08:30:18 AM
Coolness, Stuart!
I rolled this one out today:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41mvxKEDmnL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Went with No. 3 from 1944.
I bought this set last year. It is too bad the set does not include the full Beethoven cycle ...
Quote from: Coopmv on February 20, 2011, 08:48:53 AM
I bought this set last year. It is too bad the set does not include the full Beethoven cycle ...
I believe they kept it a WWII era, so that may explain it. Que would know.
Quote from: Bogey on February 20, 2011, 03:41:34 AM
Awesome research here, my friend. Here are the Music and Arts' timings:
1. 11:09
2. 11:57
3. 5:33
4. 6:56
So, is your Opus Kura without audience sound (coughs and such)?
Yes, I just did the entire recording with the head phones on - no audience noises at all.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51uMnfYucYL._SS500_.jpg)
Interesting that the M&A timings are right between the two. Does M&A give any information?
Q
Quote from: Que on February 20, 2011, 01:01:54 AM
I think you have hit upon something interesting, Bill! :) I was not aware of this before, BTW.
Quoting John Ardoin's "The Furtwängler Record":
There has been some confusion surrounding the 1943 performances. They derive from two sources: a studio performance an a broadcast performance with audience. The DG LP issue is of the complete performance with an audience, while Melodiya issued a hybrid version consisting of the first movements drawn from the live performances and the last two from the studio session. It was not until 1988, when many of the Furtwängler master tapes were returned from Russia, that the complete live performance could finally be heard, issued on CD by DG. Of the two it is this one that is of greater interest and authority.
From Opus Kura's website (//http://), who issued - according to them - the broadcast version:
Beethoven's Symphony No. 4 on CD OPK7002 was recorded for broadcast in the old Philharmonic hall on June 28 or 30th, 1943. Two or more copy tapes were probably created; U.S. VOX bought one of the tapes and issued it on LP in 1952 (PL7210). At least one tape was taken (along with many other RRG tapes) to the Soviet Union, and issued on Melodiya LP after 1956; their first publication was on the blue torch label GOCT 5289-56. Deutsche Grammophon acquired yet another copy tape which they published on LP in 1962 (LPM 18817). Melodiya then stopped manufacturing LPs of the broadcast performance and instead issued a hybrid version made from a broadcast performance of the 1st and 2nd movements and live recordings of the 3rd and 4th movements.
A complete live recording was eventually issued around 1973. The black label LP and later CD (MEL CD 1000719) which sold predominantly in Japan, were from such a source. This live performance was also included among the tapes the Russians returned to Sender Freies Berlin in 1987 , and first published by DG in 1989. The DG tape has been frequently re-issued in Japan on Polidor CDs (most recently on POCG-9485). There appears to have been no reissue of the broadcast performance since it was published by Turnabout LP (from the VOX tape) in 1971 (TV 4344).
So there are three versions roaming around: a live one, a broadcast version recorded without an audience and a hybrid version. Opus Kura is well informed on the topic of Melodiya issues, so I take their word for it that Melodiya issued all three versions and that Opus Kura issued a transfer of the LP issue of the broadcast version.
Melodiya indicates that they used the live version for the CD issue - dated the 27th. Hopefully comparing timings might help to figure out what's what.
OPUS KURA
1. 11'14"
2. 12'11"
3. 5'40"
4. 7'00"
| MELODIYA
1. 11'03"
2. 11'49"
3. 5'29"
4. 6'49" |
All timings are different and Melodiya's timings all below Opus Kura, which might indicate that indeed the 1st one is the broadcast recording and the 2nd the live one - since Furtwängler live timings are in my experince generally quicker. Bill, could you post the M&A timings? If they indicate two dates, it might be the hybrid version?
I'm glad you brought it up. Because ever since I got the Melodiya I had the feeling that it was different from the Opus Kura both aurally and as a performance but I couldn't figure out why because I thought it was the same performance (Opus Kura doesn't give a date on the CD itself). Now I know why! I'll have to check the individual movements.
Q
Quote from: Que on March 01, 2011, 11:07:31 AM
Yes, I just did the entire recording with the head phones on - no audience noises at all.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51uMnfYucYL._SS500_.jpg)
Interesting that the M&A timings are right between the two. Does M&A give any information?
Q
Although the stated dates are different (MEL - 27 Jun 43/ DG - 30 Jun 43) when we actually listen to the DG and the Melodiya CD editions there is little doubt they are taken from the same performance. The timings are also identical and there are obvious "live" (audience) noises in every movement. Which edition has the right recording date will be very difficult to confirm, unless some documents describing the recording sessions are found.
Comparing the Melodiya/DG performance with the Opus Kura "broadcast" edition (OPK 7002) we do listen to another performance, with very different timings and, as Q mentioned, no noises suggesting an audience. Opus Kura does not compromise with a recording date but (as stated in the notes) this is most probably the "broadcast" performance (without audience).
More difficult to compare is the Music & Arts edition. Listening, it does seem the same "live" (audience) performance as Melodiya and DG. The sound quality is different but, at least in my ears, the performance is similar. And in every movement there are also audience noises suggesting a live/audience performance. Some small differences in the timings do exist but they are more probably related with a different transfer and not with a different origin.
The reference on John Ardoin's book to some hybrid (audience/no audience) editions may be correct but it could apply only to some of the LP editions. I saw no signs of it in the CD versions I have.
For me, the "live" (audience) version is a more interesting performance than the "broadcast". And the Melodiya CD has probably the more vivid transfer.
PS - to be more precise it must be noted Opus Kura issued the broadcast/no audience version (OPK 7002) and also the "live" version (OPK7017).
I hope to give the following CD a spin over the next day or so. The CD arrived early this week ...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51fvKOrtVKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Quote from: ccar on March 02, 2011, 02:02:08 PM
The reference on John Ardoin's book to some hybrid (audience/no audience) editions may be correct but it could apply only to some of the LP editions. I saw no signs of it in the CD versions I have.
Indeed - all the mentions by Ardoin & Opus Kura refer to LP's. Opus Kura's web site notes also state that the DG is the live recording. I couldn't compare myself but I felt the Melodiya was also the live performance - thanks for the confirmation. :)
QuoteFor me, the "live" (audience) version is a more interesting performance than the "broadcast". And the Melodiya CD has probably the more vivid transfer.
Fully agree! :) Both on performance and on transfer - for war time recordings I recommend Melodiya, though Opus Kura is very good as well. Opus Kura used transfers from old Melodiya LP's, I think Melodiya does the same. The one performance that misses in a transfer of that quality is the Bruckner IX.... :-\
Q
To throw in another ball, earlier this year Andrew Rose at Pristine Classical issued his own remastering of the 1943 4th and 7th (PASC267). He lists the date of the 4th as being 30 June. Rose tends to be more aggressive in removing audience noise whenever he can, but I do hear some, so I assume this is the concert recording.
The timings for the Pristine 4th are:
I: 11:20
II: 12:14
III: 5:36
IV: 7:09
He does not state the source material he has used for this particular remastering.
BH
I found a very nice mastering of Furtwängler's March 1942 Beethoven 9th on a Japanese website called "Public Domain classics"; see http://public-domain-archive.com/classic/download.php?lang=eng&album_no=1094.
I have the versions from M&A, Tahra, Opus Kura and Melodiya, but that public domain version has a cleaner sound then all of them. There is no tape hiss or scratch noise, very little distortion, good top end (unlike OPK) and the bass response is just slightly less than on Tahra, but better than on M&A and Melodiya.
My obvious question is if anyone has an idea what source that upload is from? The MP3 tags seem to be Japanese, so I can't read them. What strikes is me that the first movement runs only 17:09, so it might be a vinyl rip. Comments anyone?
For the topic of Beethoven 4th wartime:
It was interesting to read for me. I have it only on the DG release (Recordings 1942-1944, Vol. 1). But after it I have checked the French Society's homepage about their release. They wrote about their release:
"We released recently in 2002 a CD set SWF 011-13 which was supposed to contain 2 and a half performances of Beethoven's Fourth (June 1943). But a Japanese member found out that the live performance of CD SWF 011 was in fact a concert of September 1953, with the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra - which we released already, several years ago (SWF 892). This error was caused by a confusion of tapes."
They sent a correct recording to the buyers after it and their new CD contains the correct performance now. The booklet on the page doesn't contain timings. But if they faced with this problem maybe other recording companies did the same mistake. (Who didn't use Melodiya LP as source).
For the performance: the first movement is the best but for the overall performance I have the Mengelberg/Opus Kura release which is better for me. (Especially the 2nd movement which was incoherent for me on all recordings I've heard until I haven't heard Mengelberg's.)
(http://127.0.0.1:9000/spotifyimage/spotify:image:9fee2407273b60df0f7cfeecd8a49a04165cc1f7/cover.jpg)
I've just discovered this CD on spotify, which contains a transfer of the Gran Partita, much much better than the one I own, which is the first one on EMI References.
Has anyone tried Ward Marston's transfer on Naxos? Or the 2006 transfer on EMI? Can anyone identify the spotify CD? Does anyone know about the quality of other transfers?
Listening to this performance again I was struck by two things. One is the extraordinary darkness of WF's vision of this music. The other is the relatively restrained and classical style he adopts. This doesn't seem to me to be an overly romantic interpretation at all.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41WVSth2BNL.jpg)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0040T7COE/?tag=goodmusicguideco-21
Anyone heard this? If so, is there any improvement in sound over DG Original Masters box release?
Musical Concepts, who they? Some relation to Alto?
hi there,
Having read the 14 pages of this topic, does anyone recommend a particular label for Furtwangler's War recordings? Tahra, M&A or Melodiya?
Thanks a lot!
Quote from: Barney1988 on May 02, 2012, 05:49:34 PM
hi there,
Having read the 14 pages of this topic, does anyone recommend a particular label for Furtwangler's War recordings? Tahra, M&A or Melodiya?
Thanks a lot!
As far as I'm concerned: I prefer Melodiya, or
Opus Kura (http://www.opuskura.com/index_e.htm). Thara would be my 2nd option, and then M&A.
Q
Thanks, I've just heard the Symphony N°3 and 5 on Melodiya, the sound is much better than on other CD I had heard before! Although the lack of remastering to reduce the coughing sounds doesn't seem to be an issue for S3 but for the 5th it's bit more pronounced.
I came across, this week, a website called Pristine Classical, they offer various remastering of some of Furtwängler's recordings. You can listen to some movements for free. I feel the results are rather mixed, the Lucerne Beethoven 9th is very clear and balanced (although I haven't heard the Tahra version, yet), but the 1943 Beethoven 5th seems very distant.
Anyways, thanks a lot for the advice regarding Melodiya!
Quote from: Barney1988 on May 07, 2012, 03:27:46 PM
Thanks, I've just heard the Symphony N°3 and 5 on Melodiya, the sound is much better than on other CD I had heard before! Although the lack of remastering to reduce the coughing sounds doesn't seem to be an issue for S3 but for the 5th it's bit more pronounced.
I came across, this week, a website called Pristine Classical, they offer various remastering of some of Furtwängler's recordings. You can listen to some movements for free. I feel the results are rather mixed, the Lucerne Beethoven 9th is very clear and balanced (although I haven't heard the Tahra version, yet), but the 1943 Beethoven 5th seems very distant.
Anyways, thanks a lot for the advice regarding Melodiya!
I strongly recommend the Tahra version for the Lucerne 9th. :) BTW the orginal recording was of astoundingly good quality considering its age.
For other post-war recordings I used to recommend Tahra as well, but these days there are complete sets of the original Austrian (ORF) recordings on
Orfeo and of the Berlin recordings on
Audite.
Q
I am planning on getting a copy, I actually sent an email directly to Tahra, and they sell it for a lot less than amazon uk.
But as I'm without a job atm, I'm going to wait. And I'll keep an eye out for the ORF recordings too.
I am looking to get his Complete Beethoven Symphonies. Unfortunately, that EMI (IIRC) box includes no fewer than 3 different orchestras perfomring these works. What a weird Beethoven Symphonies cycle?
While I was visiting a friend in Berlin a week ago, I went into a shop where one could listen to any Cd they had on sale, which was a first for me ( in the sense that I have never been to a 'normal', i.e. not second hand, CD shop where they offer to open the CDs! ). Although very useful because they had some Tahra recording of Furtwangler, so I bought a couple.
I can see why they are, in general, strongly recommended. The sound is excellent, especially for the 1942 Beethoven 9th ( which I bought with the 1943 5th and Abendroth's recording of the Pastorale).
I came across this documentary on Furtwangler on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvCRFK4vyys&feature=g-vrec
(First of four parts)
Has anybody bought the giant brick? I've already got tons of the stuff on it, just curious as to the sound quality... the reviews on Amazon are good, though notoriously untrustworthy ;D
[asin]B004JC16LC[/asin]
Quote from: jwinter on July 03, 2012, 04:19:05 PM
Has anybody bought the giant brick? I've already got tons of the stuff on it, just curious as to the sound quality... the reviews on Amazon are good, though notoriously untrustworthy ;D
[asin]B004JC16LC[/asin]
Considered it....man, that is one big (http://fllinnovationaward.firstlegoleague.org/sites/default/files/lego.png) of music!
Quote from: Bogey on July 03, 2012, 04:29:28 PM
Considered it....man, that is one big (http://fllinnovationaward.firstlegoleague.org/sites/default/files/lego.png) of music!
The best price is offered by a Germany based MP vendor. But is it gonna to ship this Lego block to the US for $2.98 as listed? I have never ordered from any Amazon MP vendor located outside the US and do not know how that shipping and handling work ...
Quote from: jwinter on July 03, 2012, 04:19:05 PM
Has anybody bought the giant brick? I've already got tons of the stuff on it, just curious as to the sound quality... the reviews on Amazon are good, though notoriously untrustworthy ;D
[asin]B004JC16LC[/asin]
Thanks for the tip. It's on the way to these northern shores. I'm crossing my fingers. ;)
I have two questions about Furtwangler's 1942 recordings of Beethoven's 9th:
(1) I would like to get a recording of the famous one from 22-24 March 1942 recording of Beethoven's 9th by Furtwangler, and have been browsing to see what is currently available in the UK.
Which of the following are to be pounced on / avoided?
Melodiya: hard to find in UK, relatively expensive in USA, but seems to be well liked in this forum.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61QN6SOHlNL._AA115_.jpg)
Opus Kura 7003: mixed reviews, some very positive. But timing of 3rd movement is about 15 seconds longer; one Amazon reviewer said pitch sounded flat as a result...
Any comment from anyone here who has compared this transfer with another one?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JX28XSMYL._AA115_.jpg)
Guild Historical: performance well reviewed on MusicWeb, but no mention of transfer quality. Any good?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51um5-7%2Bd7L._AA115_.jpg)
Pristine Audio: a number of coughs removed. Praised on MusicWeb; posted on Youtube.
Sounds quite good and looks tempting.
(http://www.pristineclassical.com/media/Pictures/CDs150/PASC250.jpg)
Tahra: out of print.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51n3GL%2BtQ0L._AA115_.jpg)
M&A 653: out of print.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511v4-bEu5L._AA115_.jpg)
RCD ("Russian Compact Disc") 25006: can't find any details of this one... Presto sell it.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41cIR80L3GL._AA115_.jpg)
=============================================
(2) This question relates to the following Furtwangler War Recordings box set by Music and Arts (M&A 4049):
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41mvxKEDmnL._AA115_.jpg)
I thought at first that the Beethoven's 9th on disc 4 was a reissue of the green M&A disc above which is out of print. However, the sound clips on both Presto and Amazon sound very different to those of the other March 1942 transfers above in both performance and quality. Clips are available for comparison on http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Music%2B%2526%2BArts/MACD4049 (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Music%2B%2526%2BArts/MACD4049) and http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Music%2B%2526%2BArts/MACD4653 (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Music%2B%2526%2BArts/MACD4653).
This one sounds like a poor LP transfer, and the timings listed are substantially different too. As far as I can tell it is also not the April 1942 recording found on Archipel 0270 (pic below).
So... what is this mysterious M&A recording from? Was there a 3rd recording in 1942? Or have both Amazon and Presto got the wrong clips (seems unlikely...)?
Archipel 0270: The 19 April 1942 radio broadcast recording. Posted on Youtube.
Clips found here: http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Archipel%2BRecords/ARPCD0270 (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Archipel%2BRecords/ARPCD0270)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51SC6-rZFqL._AA115_.jpg)
Bluto
Regarding 2), I own both the M&A set and the Melodiya release. They both claim the same date. Although it's been awhile since I've tried comparing the two, my impressions were that while the Melodiya remastering was better, they sounded like the same performance. Certainly the timings are very similar:
Melodiya
1. 17:17
2. 11:22
3. 20:07
4. 24:18
M&A
1. 17.18
2. 11.22
3. 20.07
4. 24.28
Thanks for this.
Just to clarify - your M&A box set is this one with 4 CDs?
M&A 4049
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41mvxKEDmnL._AA115_.jpg)
The timings you list are interesting - they bear little resemblance to what Amazon or PrestoClassical give.
If you have a few spare minutes sometime, please could you compare the first 30 seconds of the movements on your CD with the corresponding clips highlighted in blue, green and red in my first post?
Many thanks,
Bluto
Quote from: bluto32 on August 15, 2012, 03:11:03 PM
So... what is this mysterious M&A recording from? Was there a 3rd recording in 1942? Or have both Amazon and Presto got the wrong clips (seems unlikely...)?
Archipel 0270: The 19 April 1942 radio broadcast recording. Posted on Youtube.
Clips found here: http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Archipel%2BRecords/ARPCD0270 (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Archipel%2BRecords/ARPCD0270)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51SC6-rZFqL._AA115_.jpg)
Bluto
The 19 April 1942 concert was given for Hitler's birthday. I have it and it's quite a performance. Because of the context of the concert, it is disturbing to ponder the audience (Among the audience are Himmler, the chief of the SS, and Goebbels, master propagandist).
Thanks for the info, Leo. I'm more interested in the more famous March performance, and seeking a good transfer of this.
My initial post was probably ambiguous - I was asking which performance was on the M&A 4049 disk, since the clips online don't sound like the March 1942, or the April 1942 performance which you own.
Bluto
Quote from: bluto32 on August 16, 2012, 11:23:48 AM
Thanks for the info, Leo. I'm more interested in the more famous March performance, and seeking a good transfer of this.
My initial post was probably ambiguous - I was asking which performance was on the M&A 4049 disk, since the clips online don't sound like the March 1942, or the April 1942 performance which you own.
Bluto
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-L0607-504,_Berlin,_Furtw%C3%A4ngler_dirigiert_Konzert_in_AEG-Werk.jpg?uselang=en-gb)
The 22-24 March and the 19 April 1942 are two different performances. They are both most impressive by their intensity and fierceness and also by the contrast with all other Furtwangler recordings of the Ninth. The March is the most famous because it is more widely known. But don't miss the April 19th because the sound is comparably good and the interpretation is even more urgent and dramatic.
As far as I know the best source for the March 1942 recording comes from the broadcast tapes but even these have considerable distortion and hiss. From the various CD editions I know I would probably prefer the Melodiya, the Music & Arts 1999 or even the 2000 Archipel 0002 (not to be confused with the 2004 Archipel 0270, with the April 19th performance). The Tahra has two editions (1994 Furt 1004-07 and 2006 Furt 1101-04, this one with a better 2005 mastering). I don't think Opus Kura brings the best transfers, probably because their source were probably 78 discs and not the "original" tapes. And I'm not much used to the Pristine somewhat larger than life approach.
I believe the differences in timings between the various March 1942 editions most probably relate to different transfers and not to different takes. Some differences in timings between the two Music and Arts issues (1990 M&A 653 / 1999 M&A 4049) come also from different masterings. Both used Magnethophon tapes from the broadcast but the M&A 4049 got a new 1999 remastering. Curiously, the timings of the M&A 4049 approach more closely the timings of the Melodiya CD transfer (and we know they probably had the best access to the original tapes).
Quote from: bluto32 on August 16, 2012, 09:41:55 AM
Thanks for this.
Just to clarify - your M&A box set is this one with 4 CDs?
M&A 4049
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41mvxKEDmnL._AA115_.jpg)
Many thanks,
Bluto
Bluto,
Yes I do own the 4cd set. Listening to your sample, I immediately hear far more crackling than on the file I ripped from the CD, and the tone sounds much less solid and well-defined. I don't think the sample is taken from the same remastering as the one on the disc.
I spent a couple of minutes comparing the Melodiya and M&A remasterings over the first couple of minutes of the opening movement. To be honest, while Melodiya sound might be a tad fuller, there's not a huge difference in either orchestra sound or noise reduction. Certainly, they're both very listenable if you're using to listening to historic recordings, and personally I'd be happy with either, really.
For the sound, I second the Pristine' product. I have all these CDs but hearing the Pristine' remastered FLAC XR is the first time I totally enjoy this IMO "Ode to Hell" performance ;D
Quote from: liuzerus87 on August 16, 2012, 01:40:15 PM
Yes I do own the 4cd set. Listening to your sample, I immediately hear far more crackling than on the file I ripped from the CD, and the tone sounds much less solid and well-defined. I don't think the sample is taken from the same remastering as the one on the disc.
Thank you for checking so quickly, Liuzerus. It is now clear from your observations that the clips on PrestoClassical are taken from the wrong CD - as are Amazon's clips, strangely enough... I wonder if you would therefore get the wrong recording by choosing to download the mp3s/Flacs from these stores?! It could be Mickey Mouse conducting in 1928 on these clips for all I know. Thanks also for your verdict on the quality of the M&A and Melodiya CDs you have.
Quote from: trung224 on August 16, 2012, 01:55:53 PM
For the sound, I second the Pristine' product. I have all these CDs but hearing the Pristine' remastered FLAC XR is the first time I totally enjoy this IMO "Ode to Hell" performance ;D
Just out of interest, Trung, does "FLAC XR" mean that the Flac files have "ambient stereo"? If so, what's your view on the stereo effect for this recording?
Bluto
Quote from: bluto32 on August 16, 2012, 02:38:21 PM
Just out of interest, Trung, does "FLAC XR" mean that the Flac files have "ambient stereo"? If so, what's your view on the stereo effect for this recording?
Bluto
The sound is still mono, but with more "air", the instrument sound is much more clear, and much less the distortion in high frequencies. You can mistaken that this recording made in 1951-1953, not 1942
Quote from: Leo K on August 16, 2012, 10:56:35 AM
The 19 April 1942 concert was given for Hitler's birthday. I have it and it's quite a performance. Because of the context of the concert, it is disturbing to ponder the audience (Among the audience are Himmler, the chief of the SS, and Goebbels, master propagandist).
You bring up a point that's been othering me for a while. There's a DJ on the Princeton radio station who palys a lot of perfromances by Furtwangler (Bruckner, mostly) from the early 40s, and I keep thinking, "What's with all the Nazi recordings?" Got to send those SS officers back to the camps happy.
The Big Box was duly delivered, on time and superbly packaged. Incredibly cheap delivery charge, too :D
I'm dipping here and there and will describe the contents and my listening impressions as I lazily proceed through it.
Can you check Furtwangler playing his own piano concerto with the BPO? That one sounds dismal on the Meister Konzerte set.
Quote from: André on September 08, 2012, 07:17:21 PM
The Big Box was duly delivered, on time and superbly packaged. Incredibly cheap delivery charge, too :D
I'm dipping here and there and will describe the contents and my listening impressions as I lazily proceed through it.
Was it delivered from across the pond and the box arrived in one piece? Did you also pay a fortune for the delivery? I saw a German MP vendor on Amazon US advertized for the lowest price but I am skeptical ...
I've gotten things from Amazon that were shipped from Europe. Shipping price is the same as for US, and they arrived fine.
Everything was shipped in one piece, intact and in very good shape :D. Actually, not much harm can be done to carton sleeves, right? There's not a shred of plastic in that box, so nothing broke. The whole thing is elegantly packaged and contains individual 4-11 cds smaller boxes. Very neat.
Although detailed disc contents are given on an accompanying cd-rom, no timings are given :(. I kid you not: in this day and age, not a single track timing is given for these 107 discs :o :o. Maybe it' Membran's way to tell us that Furtwängler's art is timeless? ::).
So far I've listened to 3 discs and will duly report.
Can a kind soul please direct me to the best Bruckner recordings by Furtwangler (for each of the symphonies that he recorded) including the best CD transfers for each performance?
Thanks!
That is my opinion:
Bruckner 4:
[asin]B00006B1NT[/asin]
Furtwängler has three Bruckner 4 recording. I have not heard the 1941. But the performance in Munich 1951 with VPO is very soulful and better than the official live 1951 in Stuttgart (DG)
Bruckner 5:
[asin]B004U9M8X4[/asin]
This Bruckner 5 is great, daemonic but spiritual. The Testament transfer is much superior to the DG transfer.
Bruckner 6:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51BklOupsXL._SS400_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000XZE8AK/?tag=goodmusicguideco)
Furtwängler left only last three movement on record, which has the same quality and character with his other wartime performance. The best transfer on CD is Melodyia, couple with The Beethoven 5
Bruckner 7:
[asin]B000006DE7[/asin]
Furtwängler left three complete symphony 7, the first from 1949 on EMI, the others are live concert in Cairo and Rome from 1951. To me, the 1949 is far more dramatic and involved than the others.
Bruckner 8:
[asin]B0040T7COE[/asin] :the 1942 performance
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41jTDoeWt3L._SL500_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000LXSTDG/?tag=goodmusicguideco)
:the 1954 performance
[asin]B0029LJ9IM[/asin] : the 15.03.1949 performance
For me, all three of Furtwängler's Bruckner 8 is great, in different way. My favorite is 1944 performance and the Music Concept remastered is very good
Bruckner 9:
Furtwängler left only one outstanding Bruckner 9. But the official transfer on DG isn't good
The best transfer on Bruckner 5,7,8, 9 I have heard is on Pristine Classical (in format FLAC 24bit ). The Pristine' Bruckner 4 is the Stuttgart, which has far better sound than the live Munich, but the performance is somewhat inferior
Thanks, trung!
The lazy man's way of getting Furtwängler's Bruckner is the M&A set:
[asin]B0012XIGZU[/asin]
This includes:
- Bruckner 4 - the 1951 WPO
- Bruckner 5 - the 1942 (one of the Amazon reviews claims this is from 1949, but I don't think such a recording exists)
- Bruckner 6
- Bruckner 7 - the 1951 Cairo
- Bruckner 8 - the 1944
- Bruckner 9
To me, the remastering may not be the very best available today, but it's definitely adequate.
I started listening to the 107-disc set of 'complete' Furtwängler recorded performances. Actually it's not that complete.
Disc 99 contains stuff not associated with Furtwängler at all:
Cherubini: Anacreon Overture, WP 11.01.1951
Johann Strauss Jr.: Kaiserwalzer, WP 24.01.1950
Josef Strauss: Pizzicato Polka, same provenance
Johann Strauss Jr.: Die Fledermaus, Overture, BP 1937
Rossini:La Gazza ladra, BP 1930 and Il Barbiere di Seviglia, BP 1935
Very surprising, this. Furtwängler show a great sense of humour. Things go very slowly in the introductions to the overtures, but when the allegros kick in, sparks fly indeed! Great finesse and superb rythmic snap. Recorded sound varies substantially. The 1930s performances from Berlin sound distinctly old, but the definition is reasonable.
Disc 96 and 97 also feature very unusual repertoire: Berlioz' Fausts Verdamnis, from the lucerne Festival (26.08.1950). It's the first time I hear The Damnation of Faust in German. Soloists are Tenor Frans Vroons, bass Hans Hotter and soprano Elisabeth Schwarzkopf. OK, this doesn't beat or even compare with the great recorded versions - not that there are many, mind you. Monteux, Munch, Markevitch and Davis are unchallenged. And yet Furtwängler brings great beauty and mystery to the desolate scenes where Berlioz uses divisi strings to magical effect. These occur mostly in Part I.
As the action progresses though the soloists and chorus tend to take centre space and here things are not all successful. The great Hans Hotter has the timbre for Faust, but his innate nobility vies with the character of Mephistopheles. Too much Padre Guardiano, no enough Mephisto. No bite, no snarl, no triumph in the Pandaemonium finale. I should be frightened. Hotter makes it sound like he's doing Faust a favour by letting him in.
Schwarzkopf's voice is strikingly light for Marguerite (Gretchen here). This rôle is often undertaken by mezzos or sopranos with a warm mid-range. I'll have to re-listen to her parts. Whereas Hotter struck me as vocally right but dramatically ineffective, Schwarzkopf sounded vocally ineffective, but dramatically ok. It was striking to hear her lines echo those of Schubert's lied Gretchen am Spinnrade:"Meine ruh ist hin, meine herze is schwer" in this german translation of Marguerite's great Scène - which of course is actually Goethes's original.
Dutch tenor Frans Vroons takes the prize for one of the most beautiful, elegant and powerful renditions of Faust I've heard. This is a role normally undertaken by lyric tenors with heft and endurance, like Gedda, Vanzo or Verreau. It's a difficult role vocally, not italianate really, almost wagnerian or meyerbeerian in scope. It relies heavily on forceful declamation much of the time. Vroons meets all the requirements for a superb Faust: he's vocally elegant yet tireless (this is a live recording), his enunciation of the text always clear, his tones always generous.
The various choruses are undercharacterized. Whether they are portraying peasants, students, soldiers or daemons they sound like a bunch of swiss bankers all the same. The orchestra is good. The fantastic final scene is bland and undercharacterized. IMHO Berlioz caught the mood of Goethe's legend perfectly. Furtwängler just waits for the daemons to go away and then waxes lyrical on Gretchen's ascent to heaven. A blah ending :P.
Disc 100. Modern stuff. I won't detail the performances, as I don't know the repertoire: Ernst Pepping's symphony no. 2 and HEINZ Schubert's Hymnisches Concerto for soprano, tenor, organ and orchestra. Both recordings feature the BP in wartime performances (1942-43). I have another recording of the Pepping symphony, but haven't heard it yet. I liked what I heard and can attest that the work is worthy of modern performances or recordings. The CPO disc has a performance from some 50 years later, and to the best of my knowledge it hasn't been recorded in-between. This Furtwängler rendition sounds very committed.
The Heinz Schubert work is at once bizarre and quite fascinating. It's mostly a symphony with organ obbligato. Voices come in towards the end and only sing the lines of a Sanctus. The orchestral-organ writing is quite fascinating, engrossing really. I don't really understand the function of the final alleluias. I note that Schubert died in 1945 and that there is a You Tube clip of this 1942 Furtwängler performance with Erna Berger and Walther Ludwig. I suppose it was some kind of event back then. Wikipedia mentions that he was an early member of the Nazi Party, while continuing to champion works that were not in favour with the new masters of Germany. Apparently Furtwängler's influence prevented him from getting in trouble, but by 1945 the Party had lost patience with him. Forcibly drafted in the Volksturm in Febr. 1945, he died in the Oder Battle. Stormy circumstances indeed. Whatever the context, the music still fascinates. It reminds me a bit of Copland's tortured Organ Symphony without that work's horror movie grand-guignol gestures.
Disc 48 features two famous performances: FRANZ Schubert's symphonies 8 and 9, both performed byt the BP in late '51, early '52. For some reason I had never managed to listen to the Schubert 9, one of Furtwängler's most hallowed performances. It reminds me very much of Karl Böhm's own BP recording from 1963, both in conducting and orchestral playing. But there are sizable differences. The recording is infinitely better in the 1963 recording, and the BP acquit themselves substantially better too, esp. the winds and brass. Furtwängler clearly has the measure of the score and presents a masterful conception of it. It is all that Schubert's 9th ought to be: proud, forceful, dramatic, songful and smiling. Böhm has all that too. The difference between them is Furtwängler's greater spontaneity and Böhm's incredible sense of the classical structure. The performance of th orchestra though doesn't compare. The coda of I and esp. of IV made me think the 1952 Berlin brass were substantially inferior to their later counterparts. Sometimes they sound like, well, they sound like they're simply not there. Where is the excitement, the thrill of those climactic schubertian orchestral buildups if the sound wells up all right, but the brass simply disappear from the picture ? Anyhow, I still count this a success, but not a legend.
The Unfinished, recorded 2 months later, sounds immensely dramatic, the epitome of the "it was a dark and stormy night" narrative. This is an arresting, attention-grabbing, melodramatic yet pure account of the work. Definitely belongs up there with Böhm WP, Jochum COA and Neumann CzPO versions. A gripping, soulful, honest and heart-on-sleeve interpretation.
This promises to be a very rewarding foray.
I see on Membran's site that the Beethoven 9 from April 1942 is listed but not the more famous and widely available one from March. Does anyone know if this is just a misprint or if it's actually the April performance? I can't imagine why they'd include the April performance since the sounds quality on the only existing release of it on Archipel isn't the greatest.
Quote from: Que on February 21, 2009, 01:39:37 AM
Unfortunately with the decay of the magnetic tapes much of this quality was lost. My conclusion is that taking the recordings from sources that were taken from the original tapes when they were still in good condition - Melodiya LP's or early tape copies - delivers the best result. The original tapes, later copies or umptieth generation copies (copies from copies), used by DG and M&A for example, fall short. Though Tahra also used the original tapes (I have that set) and really made the most of it - a result I could have lived with were it not for the better options available on Opus Kura and Melodiya. The problem is that the Bruckner 9th hasn't surfaced yet... My hopes are on Opus Kura.
Q
Hey Q,
Have you compared any of the SWF issues (found here (http://www.furtwangler.net/cd.html)) to the Melodiya or Opus Kura issues of the same Bruckner recordings? Also, does SWF do their own transfer or do they license from other labels?
(http://www.furtwangler.net/images/SWF041b.jpg) (http://www.furtwangler.net/images/SWF-051b.JPG)
Quote from: André on September 12, 2012, 06:59:58 PM
I started listening to the 107-disc set of 'complete' Furtwängler recorded performances. Actually it's not that complete.
Does the box include the 1950 premiere of Vier Letzte Lieder with Flagstad? If it does what's the sound like? I quite like their Im Abendrot, one would think with her huge voice and Furtwangler at the podium it would be slow and portentous rendition but it's actually flowing and pretty swift, closer in general feel to likes of Della Casa/Bohm (long time favorite) than let's say Norman.
Quote from: purephase on September 13, 2012, 11:27:22 AM
I see on Membran's site that the Beethoven 9 from April 1942 is listed but not the more famous and widely available one from March. Does anyone know if this is just a misprint or if it's actually the April performance? I can't imagine why they'd include the April performance since the sounds quality on the only existing release of it on Archipel isn't the greatest.
That April 1942 performance is represented only by the first movement. Another 9th, from May 1953 (WP) is represented by the Scherzo. The only complete performance is the 'even more famous' Bayreuth Festival from 1951.
Quote from: Drasko on September 13, 2012, 03:11:15 PM
Does the box include the 1950 premiere of Vier Letzte Lieder with Flagstad? If it does what's the sound like? I quite like their Im Abendrot, one would think with her huge voice and Furtwangler at the podium it would be slow and portentous rendition but it's actually flowing and pretty swift, closer in general feel to likes of Della Casa/Bohm (long time favorite) than let's say Norman.
Yes, the 1950 Flagstad performance is included. I haven't listened to it yet, and only heard it once, long time ago, so I won't be able to tell you if it's better souding than other incarnations. But, BY POPULAR REQUEST :D, I'll make this the next listening experience from that set.
Sneak preview: this is on disc 59, an all-vocal, Strauss and Mahler disc that also features 4 not-last songs with tenor Peter Anders and the definitely über-famous DFD interpretation of the
Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen released by EMI in 1952. AFAIK this has not been out of the catalogue in the past 60 years.
Stay tuned for more ;)
Quote from: André on September 13, 2012, 05:35:13 PM
Yes, the 1950 Flagstad performance is included. I haven't listened to it yet, and only heard it once, long time ago, so I won't be able to tell you if it's better souding than other incarnations. But, BY POPULAR REQUEST :D, I'll make this the next listening experience from that set.
Sneak preview: this is on disc 59, an all-vocal, Strauss and Mahler disc that also features 4 not-last songs with tenor Peter Anders and the definitely über-famous DFD interpretation of the Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen released by EMI in 1952. AFAIK this has not been out of the catalogue in the past 60 years.
Stay tuned for more ;)
Tuned :)
To best of my knowledge only prior official release is on Testament, and pretty rough sounding going by the reviews. It's an air-check, not studio recording (final bars of Im Abendroth are even missing).
Quote from: André on September 10, 2012, 07:58:11 AM
Everything was shipped in one piece, intact and in very good shape :D. Actually, not much harm can be done to carton sleeves, right? There's not a shred of plastic in that box, so nothing broke. The whole thing is elegantly packaged and contains individual 4-11 cds smaller boxes. Very neat.
Although detailed disc contents are given on an accompanying cd-rom, no timings are given :(. I kid you not: in this day and age, not a single track timing is given for these 107 discs :o :o. Maybe it' Membran's way to tell us that Furtwängler's art is timeless? ::).
So far I've listened to 3 discs and will duly report.
I still see this Lego block of Furtwangler offered by a MP seller named "Germany" for $79.99 on Amazon US with the standard $2.98 Amazon shipping.
That's the one. I bought it from that supplier. I can't figure how they can ship for that price.
The Flagstad 4 Letze Lieder is VERY rough sounding. Lots of vinyl surface swish. Pitch fluctuation at the beginning. Much tolerance is needed. Flagstad was in excellent voice and she is reasonably well recorded. I couldn't give it my undivided attention because of the sound.
Peter Anders shouts in a stentorian way. Can't say I listened to anything Furtwängler did there, this was clearly Anders' show. I didn't like these songs.
The Mahler of DFD is a known quantity. A studio recording in excellent sound. Fischer-Dieskau at the time had a voice to die for. This is a classic recording. Furtwängler as accompanist is excellent.
Quote from: André on September 15, 2012, 07:09:42 PM
That's the one. I bought it from that supplier. I can't figure how they can ship for that price.
The Flagstad 4 Letze Lieder is VERY rough sounding. Lots of vinyl surface swish. Pitch fluctuation at the beginning. Much tolerance is needed. Flagstad was in excellent voice and she is reasonably well recorded. I couldn't give it my undivided attention because of the sound.
Peter Anders shouts in a stentorian way. Can't say I listened to anything Furtwängler did there, this was clearly Anders' show. I didn't like these songs.
The Mahler of DFD is a known quantity. A studio recording in excellent sound. Fischer-Dieskau at the time had a voice to die for. This is a classic recording. Furtwängler as accompanist is excellent.
I honestly do not see how that Amazon US seller "Germany" makes any money by charging $2.98 shipping for such a weighty box going trans-Atlantic and charges $80 (much lower price than anyone else) for the box itself. Of course if he got the box for less than $50, he will still make some money ... ???
Hot News!
Reissue of the Melodiya reissue of the 1942 9th Symphony:
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w300/front/0/3695313.jpg)
If you've been trying to find this CD, and failing, like me, here is the news. Presto classical have just told me that it is being reissued. However, just to keep all the discographers on their toes, it is going to have a different barcode, EAN and catalogue number. Stock has not arrived in the west from Russia yet, but I will pass on any more news as I hear it.
Bongler
I have a question about Furtwangler's recordings of Beethoven's 1st Symphony. I've had the 1952 Vienna recording recommended but there appear to have been three made. Does anyone have a recommendation about which to seek out first?
24,27,28th Nov. 1952, Musikvereinssaal (studio recording)
Released as EMI CDC 7 47409 2 / CDH 7 63033 2 / CHS 7 63606 2 / CDH 5 67490 2 / CHS 5 67496 2
Toshiba CE28 5571 / TOCE-8438 / TOCE-3002 / TOCE 11006 / TOCE 3719 / TOCE 9508~12 / TOCE 14043 / TOCE 55975
Grand Slam GS 2026
SonyBMG 88697 38624 2
Otaken TKC318
29th Nov. 1952, Großer Saal, Musikverein, Wien (live)
Released as Andante 4988
Archipel APRCD 0122
Virtuoso 269.7162
Delta DCCA-0055
30th Nov. 1952, Großer Saal, Musikverein, Wien (Archive from Sendergruppe Rotweissrot)
Released as Music & Arts CD-711 / CD-1117
Tahra FURT 1076~77 / WF-1001
Nota Blu 93.5131-1
Fonit Cetra CDE 1013
Quote from: Reverend Bong on October 31, 2012, 12:04:44 PM
I have a question about Furtwangler's recordings of Beethoven's 1st Symphony. I've had the 1952 Vienna recording recommended but there appear to have been three made. Does anyone have a recommendation about which to seek out first?
24,27,28th Nov. 1952, Musikvereinssaal (studio recording)
Released as EMI CDC 7 47409 2 / CDH 7 63033 2 / CHS 7 63606 2 / CDH 5 67490 2 / CHS 5 67496 2
Toshiba CE28 5571 / TOCE-8438 / TOCE-3002 / TOCE 11006 / TOCE 3719 / TOCE 9508~12 / TOCE 14043 / TOCE 55975
Grand Slam GS 2026
SonyBMG 88697 38624 2
Otaken TKC318
29th Nov. 1952, Großer Saal, Musikverein, Wien (live)
Released as Andante 4988
Archipel APRCD 0122
Virtuoso 269.7162
Delta DCCA-0055
30th Nov. 1952, Großer Saal, Musikverein, Wien (Archive from Sendergruppe Rotweissrot)
Released as Music & Arts CD-711 / CD-1117
Tahra FURT 1076~77 / WF-1001
Nota Blu 93.5131-1
Fonit Cetra CDE 1013
According to the Furtwangler Society:
1952, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (Tahra) is the one to have.
http://www.furtwangler.org/
If you want to know which Furtwangler Beethoven performances are considered the finest, and which LP or CD issues contain them, this is for you.
This is a new post, and not attached to the end of one of the existing Furtwangler threads, since it is an attempt to distill the essential information they contain. I have tried to create a reference list that summarises information from many sources. I have spent several days reading all the many pages of discussion here and at Gramophone, and cross-referencing with the online Furtwangler discographies (which are often extremely detailed but quite uncritical), and the Furtwangler Society's essential list of recommended performances.
This list has only been possible because, interestingly enough, there is widespread agreement online about which performances stand out, and it matches the SWF list. For each symphony, the performances are ranked in order of perceived merit, with the ones considered finest of all first. I am not trying to be controversial - as I say there is general agreement about this, but I should add that in many cases the differences are essentially ones of interpretation rather than performance and as such a matter of personal taste - there is no way for example to rank #9 1942 Berlin vs 1954 Lucerne. Both are essential. I would therefore recommend that anyone who loves Beethoven or Furtwangler should really own all the top two or three recommendations for every work. However, if in any case you have not heard the first ranked one, you should make an effort to do so.
I have included both LP and CD issues, assuming there are others like me who prefer analogue vinyl and will take the time to search for it. The discography is nowhere near complete, however. It does not include the dozens of Toshiba CD issues that are rarely seen now, or the many pirated digital reissues. There are also, for example, lots of different EMI LP issues in different countries, and I haven't listed every serial number - indeed there are probably no totally comprehensive online discographies - I found three records in my own collection not listed in any of them. If you want to know all the Japanese or Argentinian releases, there are other places to look online (see acknowledgements at the end).
Some quick notes about the relative merits of the more easily available CDs is in order (note that the releases are in no particular order in my listings):
1) There is widespread agreement that the Tahra and SWF releases stand out and will never disappoint. If you join the SWF you can buy all their CDs directly from them.
2) The Melodiya 2007 reissues were done to a very high standard from early sources and have been widely acclaimed - as they effectively supersede the earlier Melodiya CDs those have not been listed.
3) The recent (2012) Audite set of postwar Berlin RIAS recordings was remastered from the original analogue tapes, which turned out to be in beautiful condition, and for the performances covered it is probably the best version that has ever been for sale.
4) The Pristine Classical issues are available as 24bit downloads as well as CDs. His website outlines his workflow, which is to digitise the best LPs or 78s he can find, match the frequency / level curve to a modern recording of the same work and clean up the noise as much as possible. However note that these are controversial: his 'XR remastering' claims to restore 'ambient stereo' to old mono recordings - it has been warmly praised by some on this forum, but other people have told me they found it unconvincing on repeated listening. You can read about it in detail, and buy downloads, from Mr Rose's website at http://www.pristineclassical.com/. A google search will bring up discussion online for and against these issues.
5) The gigantic box set called 'The Legacy' issued by Membran in 2011 contains pretty much everything. This has received fairly positive reviews, it seems that while not in the very top rank it is pretty good, and in particular noise reduction is in many cases less obvious than in the EMI releases. The best thing I can do is direct you to owners' reviews on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Legacy-107CD-Wilhelm-Furtwangler/dp/B004JC16LC/
And so, here is the list:
-------------------------------------------------------------
Symphony n°1
1952 (30 Nov) Großer Saal Vienna, Vienna Philharmonic
LP: Cetra FE 33
German Furtwängler Society F669.056-7(2 set)
CD: Music & Arts CD-711; CD-1117(2 set)
Tahra FURT 1076-7(2 set); WF-1001(40 set)
not to be confused with:
24/27/28 Nov studio (released on EMI and others)
29 Nov live (released on various minor labels)
1954 (30 Mar) Stuttgart, Süddeutscher Rundfunk Orchestra
LP: Discocorp RR511
French Furtwängler Society SWF 8301-2
Nippon Columbia OZ7578
CD: Fr. Furt. Soc. SWF 931
Mediaphon JA 75.100
-------------------------------------------------------------
Symphony n°2
1948 (3 Oct) Royal Albert Hall London, Vienna Philharmonic
(no preference implied, no other recording exists)
LP: EMI 3C 053-03635; 2C 051 03649; 1C 149 53542-53549M
Toshiba WF 60002
OE OLAC 0049; OLAC 0090(8 set)
CD: Music and Arts CD 942(5 set)
EMI CDH 7 63192 2 ; CHS 7 63606 2(5 set); CDH 5 67491 2; CHS 5 67496 2(5 set);
5 74173 2 (5 set)
Pristine Classics PASC 355 (available as high-res download)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Symphony n°3
1944 (c. 20 Dec) Musikvereinsaal Vienna, Vienna Philharmonic
LP: Urania C 7095
Unicorn UNI 104
Intercord INT 120, 921
Turnabout THS 65020; TV 4343
Melodiya D 06443-44; M10 06443 009
EMI 2C 051 63332; 3C 153 53810~16 M(7 set)
Toshiba WF 60043
CD: Melodiya MEL 1001106 (2007 transfer from very early sources)
Tahra FURT 1031; FURT 1034-9(6 set); FURT 1060-2(3 set);
WF-1001(40 set); TAH 4003
Music and Arts CD 814; CD 942 (5 set); CD 4049(4 set)
Russian CD RCD 25001
(several editions eg original Melodiya and Turnabout incorrectly cite BPO)
SACD: Tahra FURT 2008
1952 (8 Dec) Titania Palast Berlin, Berlin Philharmonic
LP: Cetra LO 530; K20C-13
Seven seas K17C-9417
CD: Audite RIAS set (2012 remaster from RIAS master tape)
Tahra FURT 1008-11(4 set); FURT 1008-9(2 set); FURT 1054-7(4 set);
FURT 1067-70(4 set); FURT 2002-4(3 set); TAH 4007
Music and Arts CD 869(2 set)
Pristine Classics PASC 095 (available as high-res download)
German Furtwängler Society MMS 9010 (misdated)
Rodolphe RPC 32522-24; RPV 32801
Seven Seas K35Y-42; KICC-90831(13 set)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Symphony n°4
1943 (27/30 Jun) Philharmonie Berlin, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra
LP: EMI 3C 153 53810-53816M
Toshiba WF 60044; WF 70003
Melodiya D 09083-09084; M10 49725
Olympic OL 8120; 8124
French Furtwängler Society SWF 8801-3
CD: Melodiya MEL 1001112 (2007 transfer from very early sources)
Russian RCD 25010
Music and Arts CD 824; CD 4049(4 set)
French Furtwängler Society SWF 011R; SWF 011-3(3 set)
Pristine Classics PASC 267 (available as high-res download)
Opus Kura OPK 7002; OPK 7017
SACD: Dreamlife DLCA 7006
1952 (1-3 Dec) Musikvereinsaal Vienna, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra
LP: HMV ALP 1059; MFP 2072
Victor LHMV 1059
Electrola E 90059; WALP 1059; SME 91412
Pathé FALP 116; FALP 30032; FALP 30124; UVT 3124
EMI 2C 153 52540-52551; 1C 027 00806M; 1C 149 53432-53439M
CD: EMI CDC 7 47409 2; CDH 7 63192 2; CHS 7 63606 2(5 set); CDH 5 67491 2;
CHS 5 67496 2(5 set); 5 74173 2(5 set)
1953 (4 Sep) Deutsches Museum Munich, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra
LP : JVC RCL 3333
Cetra FE 49
CD: French Furtwängler Society SWF 892; SWF 011-3(3 set)
Tahra FURT 1090-3(4 set)
Music and Arts CD 792; CD 942(5 set)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Symphony n°5
1943 (30 June) Berlin, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra
'an extremely tense interpretation, the essence of Furtwängler's conducting' -SWF
LP: EMI 3C 153 53810-16M(6 set)
Melodiya D 05800-01; M10 05800 009
Unicorn UNI 106
Ariston ARCL 13029
French Furtwängler Society SWF 7002
Turnabout TV 4353; TV 4361; TV 34478
Russian Disc R 10 00205
Nippon Columbia DXM 157
DG 427 773-1; RG 2140 (12 set)
CD: Melodiya MEL 1001110 (2007 transfer from very early sources)
Russian RCD 25011
Music & Arts CD 824 / CD 4049(4 set)
Tahra TAH 272; FURT 1032-3; FURT 1034-9; WF-1001(40 set);
TAH 4004; TAH 4018,
Opus Kura OPK 7001(JP)
Pristine Classics PASC 271 (available as high-res download)
Altus ALT155 (transferred from Urania LP by laser pickup)
SACD: Dreamlife DLCA 7006
1947 (25 May) Titania Palast Berlin, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra
'similar to the wartime performance, but better recorded' -GMG
LP: Cetra FE 32
CD: SWF 011-3 (3 set)
Tahra FURT 2002-4(3 set)
Audite RIAS set
1954 (23 May) Titania Palast Berlin, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra
Very different: overall timings are slower, but the tempos within movements are more varied,
which is one of the great things about Furtwangler in general. Powerful, grand; great sound.
LP: German Furtwängler Society F669.310-11(2 set)
CD: Audite RIAS set
Tahra 1032-3
-------------------------------------------------------------
Symphony n°6
1943 (22-23rd Dec) Musikvereinssaal, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra
LP: EMI ED 2906661T
Toshiba WF 60078
Turnabout TV 4408 [misdated as 1944]
CD: SWF 101
Preiser PRCD 90199
Music and Arts CD 954(4 set)
Toshiba TOCE 6056
1952 (24-25 Nov, 1 Dec) Musikvereinsaal, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra
'One of the slowest 1st movements ever, but it works beautifully. The finale is still on the quick side, but it soars, where the earlier live versions sound too hectic.' -GMG
LP: HMV ALP 1041; 100 8071
Victor LHMV 1066
Electrola E 90040; WALP 1041; SME 90040; SMVP 8038; 1C 027 00807
Pathé FALP 288; FALP 30038; UVT 3038
CD: EMI CDC 7 47121 2; CDH 7 63034 2; CHS 7 63606 2(5 set); CDH 5 67493 2;
CHS 5 67496 2(5 set)
Pristine Classics PASC 359 (available as high-res download)
1944 (20-22nd Mar) Staatsoper, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra
LP: Melodiya D 02777-78; M10 02777 004
French Furtwängler Society SWF 7104(R)
Discocorp RR 412
CD: Melodiya MEL 1001102 (2007 transfer from very early sources -gives date as 19 Mar)
Tahra FURT 1004-7(4 set); FURT 1034-9(6 set); WF-1001(40 set); TAH 4005
Music and Arts CD 824; CD 2001; CD 942(5 set); CD 4049(4 set)
French Furtwängler Society SWF 901
American Furtwängler Society WFSA 2001
Russian RCD 25003 (gives date as 19 Mar)
Opus Kura OPK 7001
SACD: Dreamlife DLCA 7009
1954 (23 May) Titania Palast Berlin, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra
LP: Cetra FE 32
German Furtwängler Society F669.310~11(2 set)
CD: Audite RIAS Set (2012 remaster from RIAS master tape)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Symphony n°7
1943 (31 Oct-3 Nov) Philharmonie Berlin, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra
'the greatest Seventh in the history of records' -WFS
LP: Melodiya D 027779-80; M10 49727
EMI 3C 153 53810-16M(7 set)
Unicorn WFS 8
Turnabout TV 34509
French Furtwängler Society SWF 7105
Olympic OL 8120; OL 8129
Intercord INT 120.924
Toshiba WF 60047; WF 7006
DG 427 773-1; RG 2140(12 set)
CD: Melodiya MEL 1001104 (2007 new transfer from very early sources)
Music and Arts CD 824; CD 4049(4 set)
Opus Kura OPK 7002
Russian RCD 25004
French Furtwängler Society SWF 941
Pristine Classics PASC 267 (available as high-res download)
1950 (18-19 Jan) Musikvereinsaal, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra
LP: Victor LHMV 10008
EMI Electrola E 90016; WALP 527; SME 90016; SMVP 8048; 1C 027 00809
EMI 2C 051 03089; 3C 053 00809 both misdated as 25-30th Jan
Pathé FALP 115; FALP 30031; UVT 3031
Angel 6018
CD: EMI CDH 769803 2; CHS 763606 2(5 set); CDH 567492 2; CHS 567496 2(5 set); CDH 5 86200 2
Tahra FURT 1084-7(4 set)
Grand Slam GS-2007 (transferred from FALP 115 1st press)
Opus Kura OPK 2068 (from 78s)
1953 (14 Apr) Titania Palast Berlin, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra
LP: German Furtwängler Society F666.624~25(2 set)
Discocorp RR 476
Cetra FE 4
Japan WFS 2-3
CD: DG 415 666-2; 427 401-2; 474 030-2(6 set); DG Japan POCG 9506
Music and Arts CD 942(5 set)
Tahra FURT 2002(3 set)
German WF Soc TMK 014128
-------------------------------------------------------------
Symphony n°8
1953 (14 Apr) Titania Palast Berlin, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra
LP: German Furtwängler Society F666.624-5(2 set)
Discocorp RR 413
Cetra FE 4
Japan WFS 2-3
Nippon Columbia OZ 7585
Cetra FE 48
CD: DG 415 666-2; 427 401-2; 477 006-2(6 set)
Music and Arts CD 942(5 set)
Tahra FURT 2002-4(3 set)
Pristine Classics PASC 359 (available as high-res download)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Symphony n°9
1942 (22-24 March) Philharmonie Berlin, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra
(Briem, Höngen, Anders, Watzke)
an astonishingly intense, almost apocalyptic interpretation.
LP: Melodiya D 010851-010854; M10 10851 009
Unicorn UNI 100-101
Nic DXM 105-106
Turnabout TV 4346-7; TV 4353-4
French Furtwängler Society SWF 7003-7004
EMI 3C 153 53810-53816M
Toshiba WF 60045-6(2 set)
CD: Melodiya MEL 1001114 (2007 transfer from very early sources) -to be reissued imminently with new number
Music and Arts CD 653; CD 4049(4 set); CD 4653
French Furtwängler Society SWF 891
Tahra FURT 1004-7(4 set); FURT 1034-9 (6 set); WF-1001(40 set); TAH 4006
Russian Compact Disc RCD 25006
Archipel ARPCD 0002
Opus Kura OPK 7003
Pristine Classics PASC 250 (available as high-res download)
which is similar to:
19 Apr 1942 (eve of Hitler's 53rd birthday) BPO with Berger, Pitzinger, Rosvaenge,
Watzke, released on Archipel ARPCD 0270.
1954 (22 August) Lucerne Festival, Philharmonia Orchestra, Lucerne
(Schwarzkopf, Cavelti, Haefliger, Edelman)
a beautiful, inward-looking, almost spiritual version, gorgeously serene and in places the slowest
of all WF's Ninths, with the best orchestral playing. Extraordinarily fine recording.
LP: Japan MF 18862~63
Cetra LO 530
Discocorp RR 390
CD: Tahra FURT 1003 (Gramophone award 1995); FURT 1054-7(4 set);
FURT 1067-70(4 set); WF-1001(40 set)
Music and Arts CD-790
Seven Seas K35Y-41; KICC 2290
Rodolphe RPC 32522-4
Otaken TKC 307(JP)
Archipel ARPCD0502
Delta DCCA-0065
Audite 95.641 (2021 remaster with speed corrected, available as high res download)
SACD: Tahra FURT 2001
1951 (29 Jul) Festspielhaus Bayreuth, Bayreuth Festival Orchestra
opening performance at Bayreuth following WWII
(Schwarzkopf, Höngen, Hopf, Edelmann)
LP: HMV ALP 1286-7; QALP 10116-7; RLS 727
Pathé FALP 381-2; FALP 30048-49; COLH 078-9 ; UVT 3048-9
Electrola WALP1286-7; E90115-6; EBE600000; STE90115-6; SME90115-6; SMVP8051-2
Victor LM 6043
Angel GRB 4003; 6068; many others
EMI 1C 147 00811-2; 2C 153 00811-2; 3C 153 00811-2; 2C 153 52540-1;
1C 149 53432-9 M(8 set); 2C 151 53678-9
CD: EMI CMS 565751-2; CDC 7 47801 2; CDH 7 69801 2; CHS 7 63606 2(5 set); etc.
Otaken TKC 301 from original ALP; 309 from EMI master tape; 319 from FALP 30048-9
Naxos 8.111060 (transferred from original ALP release by Mark Obert-Thorn)
All the above are from the EMI tapes, which were edited together, largely from the previous day's rehearsals.
The survival of tapes of the Bavarian radio broadcast has meant that the actual performance is now available:
Orfeo d'Or 754 081; KKCC-4448; BIS-9060 (SACD and high-res download)
1937 (1 May) Queens Hall London, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra
(Berger, Pitzinger, Ludwig, Watzke)
LP: EMI ED 27 01231; EKCL 0007
Toshiba WF 60073-4
CD: Music & Arts CD 818
Toshiba TOCE 6057
JP Furtwängler Society WFJ 19
Archipel ARPCD 0090; ARPCD 0441
EMI CZS 5 62875 2(2 set)
Acknowledgements:
http://www.furtwangler.net/bestchoice.html
http://patangel.free.fr/furt/disco.htm
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/
and last but most important, the astonishing discography of Mr Youngrok Lee, without whom this exercise would have been too difficult to attempt:
http://fischer.hosting.paran.com/music/Furtwangler/furtwangler-discography.htm
Thank you for your work of synthesis. Are the transfers also in the order of preference?
I have a couple of those Furtwängler Society double LPs - can't check right now but think 9+1 and 5+6 (all from the 50s).
I have the 5th 1937 and '47 on my hard disc as downloads. I must say I prefer '37, scratchy surfaces and all.
Why no Symphony #2? I know that he only recorded it once.
Thanks for your superb effort, Reverend Bong. But I must add that the wartime Beethoven 3 on 1944 have been release on SACD by Tahra with much better sound [asin]B004T0145W[/asin]
And I must say that the Pristine Classics remastered is also excellent, to my ear even surpasses the Melodyia transfer, especially on the 1942 Ninth Symphony
I've been going through the Membran box. Is that too recent for this survey? I'm guessing they found a major Furtwangler collector with pristine vintage vinyl. The stuff sounds very good.
Thanks for the additional information which has been incorporated.
In answer to the earlier question, no, the releases are in random order. All I know about their relative merits is noted in the text at the start. Personally I have a lot of vinyl, the Audite RIAS box and a couple of the Russian CD issues, so my experience is too limited to start trying to order them. The Lucerne SACD is on its way to me...
Code number of new SACD Beethoven's symphony No.3 1944 is Furt 2008.
Does anyone have any experience of the Unicorn LPs of the Beethoven symphonies? I gather most people here are firmly digital, but if anyone has any of them I'd be interested in their impressions regarding sound quality. They appear to date from the 1970s.
The Melodiya rerelease of Furtwangler's March 1942 recording of Beethoven's 9th came out in January.
The new catalogue number is: MEL CD 10 02014.
I must say I'm tempted to try the other CDs in that Melodiya series (symphonies 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7).
Bluto
I have the Audite set of Furtwangler RIAS recordings on LP (vinyl). The dynamics of these mono recordings is explosive, to say the least. I feel as though I am at the recording venue, as the occasional recorded cough and sneeze sounds lifelike. Tonality is very good and the performances are some of the best I have heard. Furtwangler holds nothing back.
Quote from: banpuku on February 17, 2013, 02:59:12 PM
I have the Audite set of Furtwangler RIAS recordings on LP (vinyl). The dynamics of these mono recordings is explosive, to say the least. I feel as though I am at the recording venue, as the occasional recorded cough and sneeze sounds lifelike. Tonality is very good and the performances are some of the best I have heard. Furtwangler holds nothing back.
Agree. But the coughs are very audible on the Audite set- I have the CDs - too much so for my taste. If only they could be deleted.
Many thanks for pointing out the existence of the Audite, I'd managed to miss it up until now ;(
On a related note: anyone looked into this website? http://furtwanglersound.com/reviews/wilhelmfurtwnglert/ Link is to a review on the site by Henry Fogel (whose name i've seen around on the interwebs), but since I am generally not a fan of 'XR remastering', I have my doubts about it.. The review doesn't really explain what the Chibas transfers sound like, and Fogel only says that he "spent a month doing A/B comparisons", which seems a bit silly unless the transfers are near-identical already, which in my experience isn't usually the case with Furtwängler transfers. (Unless I'm missing something and he uses that phrase to suggest something else?)
Quote from: 0spinboson on August 12, 2013, 09:25:11 AM
Many thanks for pointing out the existence of the Audite, I'd managed to miss it up until now ;(
On a related note: anyone looked into this website? http://furtwanglersound.com/reviews/wilhelmfurtwnglert/ Link is to a review on the site by Henry Fogel (whose name i've seen around on the interwebs), but since I am generally not a fan of 'XR remastering', I have my doubts about it.. The review doesn't really explain what the Chibas transfers sound like, and Fogel only says that he "spent a month doing A/B comparisons", which seems a bit silly unless the transfers are near-identical already, which in my experience isn't usually the case with Furtwängler transfers. (Unless I'm missing something and he uses that phrase to suggest something else?)
Many sound clips on the site sound great IMO, preferable to all other transfers I've heard.
Quote from: 0spinboson on August 12, 2013, 09:25:11 AM
On a related note: anyone looked into this website? http://furtwanglersound.com/reviews/wilhelmfurtwnglert/ Link is to a review on the site by Henry Fogel (whose name i've seen around on the interwebs), but since I am generally not a fan of 'XR remastering', I have my doubts about it.. The review doesn't really explain what the Chibas transfers sound like, and Fogel only says that he "spent a month doing A/B comparisons", which seems a bit silly unless the transfers are near-identical already, which in my experience isn't usually the case with Furtwängler transfers. (Unless I'm missing something and he uses that phrase to suggest something else?)
I've found it months ago and although the samples sounds quite good (on my poor headphones) but it seems overly processed (too much noise reduction, added echo and equalization). It doesn't fit my taste.
Posted this in the mega brick set thread, but thought some might miss it:
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0885150331101.jpg)
The Pope got one for free!
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51o35SLeOBL._SX300_.jpg)
video here
http://www.romereports.com/palio/pope-francis-meets-with-angela-merkel-economy-and-religious-liberty-discussed-english-10070.html#.Uju_hIY3t8E
Pope Francis-- Favorite music: "Leonore" Overture No. 3 by Ludwig van Beethoven conducted by the late-Wilhelm Furtwangler, "who, in my opinion, is the best conductor of some of (Beethoven's) symphonies and works by Wagner."
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0885150331101.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/615%2BNfmTFgL._SY300_.jpg)
No cross overs, correct?
Quote from: Bogey on September 20, 2013, 07:07:49 PM
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0885150331101.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/615%2BNfmTFgL._SY300_.jpg)
No cross overs, correct?
No, indeed. The Membrane box contains the EMI or studio recordings with VPO and sometimes BPO , while all of recordings in the Rias box are "live" with BPO.
I ran across this letter for sale on Ebay (a place I should not be spending time); maybe not so special for anybody who's read a clutch of WF's briefe from that decade, but in case you want
to own it ($750!):
(http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y434/8ve/Music/KGrHqFosFBZt6RSYBQg-pJtj4Q60_58_zps0f6b4565.jpg) (http://s1274.photobucket.com/user/8ve/media/Music/KGrHqFosFBZt6RSYBQg-pJtj4Q60_58_zps0f6b4565.jpg.html)
Furtwängler to Prof. Hans Bassermann [sic?] re: Stuckenschmidt, Berlin, 29 June 1932 The translation supplied by the seller:
Quote"I thank you for your letter dated the 16th of this month and your interest in me which is shown therein. - Were you more familiar with Berlin"s music critics, you would not be so very much surprised regarding Stuckenschmidt [Hans Heinz Stuckenschmidt (1901 - 1988), German composer, musicologist, and historian and critic of music]. Recently, a great and internationally renowned artist remarked to me, no doubt correctly, that large German cities, particularly Berlin and Vienna, represent the most unpleasant atmosphere with regard to the artistic world that has ever existed. The unscrupulous way by which facts are tampered with and the public is misled to serve biased and tedious party doctrines and intentions, can hardly be surpassed. The only positive thing, however, is that gradually the public is no longer listening to what the Mr. Stuckenschmidt etc. proclaim which, with regard to us artists, is most sensible. Where would we be if we had to be concerned with those things?"
A couple of years ago, I picked up this 2007 Music & Arts reissue of Furtwangler's 1954 Lucerne recording of Beethoven's 9th:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511vszFMhTL._AA160_.jpg)
Although the performance and interpretation are super, I've found this recording quite tiring to listen to on account of the overpowering tympani through much of the 1st and some of the 4th movements. I was too late to pick up any of the Tahra releases at a sensible price, so took a chance a few days ago on this download by Pristine Audio:
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1691/2535/products/PASC261_358552a8-0c28-48fe-b014-7da64414f585_160x160.jpg?v=1515504910)
Both the mono and "ambient stereo" versions sound very good (haven't decided which I prefer yet), and are more pleasant than the Music & Arts one to my ears due to a better balance and less prominent tympani.
Bluto
Quote from: bluto32 on May 04, 2015, 03:03:05 PM
A couple of years ago, I picked up this 2007 Music & Arts reissue of Furtwangler's 1954 Lucerne recording of Beethoven's 9th:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511vszFMhTL._AA160_.jpg)
Although the performance and interpretation are super, I've found this recording quite tiring to listen to on account of the overpowering tympani through much of the 1st and some of the 4th movements. I was too late to pick up any of the Tahra releases at a sensible price, so took a chance a few days ago on this download by Pristine Audio:
(http://www.pristineaudio.com/media/Pictures/CDs150/PASC261.jpg)
Both the mono and "ambient stereo" versions sound very good (haven't decided which I prefer yet), and are more pleasant than the Music & Arts one to my ears due to a better balance and less prominent tympani.
Bluto
I share your misgivings about Music & Arts... But I'm not a fan of the "doctoring" by Pristine Audio, either... ::)
The Lucern performances of the Beethoven 9th has been reissued BTW, this time by Audite.
Reportedly, like Tahra, a transfer directly from the tapes of Swiss radio:
[asin]B00NG4B7PY[/asin]
Q
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71HzFnAFcyL._SX425_.jpg)
Many moons ago, Que recommended this gem of a recording of Furtwängler's 9th. Well, it's about to be released again on 180 gram vinyl, and I am considering it just to hear it in analogue as the performance is still one of my favorites of the 9th:
(http://store.acousticsounds.com/images/large/AAUD_80461__109703__09212015014358-1856.jpg)
Complete with previously unreleased photos from the festival's archive, the 32-page booklet in three languages contains extensive information on Wilhelm Furtwängler's work in Lucerne, as well as providing the context for this performance.
And for the record, that cd pressing above is moving toward nut-so prices. If you can snag one, Que's rec still holds strong at my end.
Well, I just came in from a hard morning extending the perimeter defences to see some exciting new discs have emerged!
Please do post details (including serial numbers and if you own them comments on sound quality - and links, please, not just pictures) for any Beethoven reissues that appear to be missing from my mega-post on page 16 above. I shall update it shortly with all these lovely new releases. Audite DMM vinyl Lucerne 1954! Wowsers! (as we say in the vicarage) Sounds good enough to put in a sandwich and eat for tea.
Yesterday I referred to a Wall Street Journal article, which begins with a rave about Furtwängler's 1948 performance with the Berlin Philharmonic of the Brahms Fourth Symphony
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,17845.40.html (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,17845.40.html)
Here is (I believe) the YouTube page to which the article referred:
https://www.youtube.com/v/ho-VIo7pLzc
Quote from: Cato on August 05, 2018, 03:08:53 AM
Yesterday I referred to a Wall Street Journal article, which begins with a rave about Furtwängler's 1948 performance with the Berlin Philharmonic of the Brahms Fourth Symphony
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,17845.40.html (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,17845.40.html)
Here is (I believe) the YouTube page to which the article referred:
https://www.youtube.com/v/ho-VIo7pLzc
Here is another version from 1949: it is just as compelling, if not more so!
https://www.youtube.com/v/zlaTYaQP8IM