Over the past several months, I worked through four complete LvB piano sonata cycles, including one bad cycle and the worst cycle yet recorded. (One hopes no one records anything worse.) Whilst refreshing the Most Scientifically Accurate and Objective Ranking System® known to humankind, I thought it was about time that I clean up the top of the second tier, which includes an unsatisfying eleven cycles. It must be ten, so a proper top ten can be followed by a second best top ten. It just makes aesthetic sense. It also allows for a sussing out of comparative greatness sufficient to ultimately be compared to the top ten, so a refreshed, rejuvenated, and new and improved top ten can be sorted out at some point.
It's just too time-consuming to listen to all thirty-two sonatas eleven times, so I decided to go with a sampling approach. Relying on objective rigor that would make Schneider-Kreuznach engineers envious, I selected five sonatas to get to the bottom of this pressing question. The first round consists of A/Bing two pianists in Opp 10/3 and 31/3. The second round compares Opp 28 and 78 from the first-round winners. The third round compares Opp 110 from the second-round winners. Since eleven pianists are involved, Irina Mejoueva, in her second cycle for Bijin, earns a first-round bye. While I expect each bracket to have a winner, in the unlikely event of a tie, a coin flip will decide the victor. So, let the games begin.
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Match 1: Fazil Say vs Arthur Schnabel
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In Op 10/3, Schnabel plays the Presto quite swift in the quickest passages, but he backs off, with perfect fluidity, to play some passages a bit slower, but with perfect flow. The slow burn Largo epitomizes late 19th century romanticism. The note imperfect Menuetto has plenty of verve, as does the concluding Rondo. It had been a while since I last listened to Schnabel's take, and it is indeed good stuff. Say starts a bit slower, speeds up, amps things up, and uses rubato as deftly as Schnabel. The Largo is wildly different, with no repeat, and played at a swift tempo, with tension throughout. It works, just not as well as Schnabel's take. The Menuetto sounds lovely in the outer sections, and punchy in the middle, while the Rondo has ample verve. But Schnabel takes it.
In 31/3, Schnabel is pretty much all about verve and speed and playing that veers right to the edge of recklessness. Such a style works rather well here. Say opts for more variation in tempo and especially dynamic contrasts, coming close to overthinking the piece. Fortunately, the end result nevertheless yields ample energy and wit. And the lightness of touch in some of the playing really hits the spot. He offers a distinct take on the Scherzo, which, while not slow, sort of rolls along at a relaxed tempo, and his playing in the outer sections of the Menuetto are quite lovely. Overall, Say is pretty close to Schnabel in this sonata, just different.
Winner: Schnabel
Should be a fun thread. I have always loved my Schnabel set (on Naxos Historical CDs.)
Quite an illustration of the scientific approach :)
Match 2: Kazune Shimizu vs FFG
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Kazune Shimizu starts 10/3 with crisp, clean, brisk playing, with nary a note out of place, and a perfectly classical mien. The Largo sounds controlled and mixes drama and reserve nicely, with a rock-steady slow tempo and a satisfyingly loud climax. The Menuetto and especially Rondo are delivered with pep and clarity. Nice. FFG starts faster, and the more closely miked piano sounds beefier. FFG does not play with the same clarity as Shimizu, but he almost glides along with a sense of serious playfulness in the Presto. The Largo comes off slightly pressed sounding, rather dramatic, and kind of episodic, but in the best way. The close, bass-rich recording yields nice forte playing and an overall dramatic feel. The tuneful outer sections and playful middle section of the Menuetto really hit the spot, and the Rondo just exudes fun. FFG takes this one.
Shimizu's 31/3 sounds clean and proper, with beefy bass sforzandi and forward momentum. The Scherzo is left-hand led, and that left hand is again steady, steady, steady. The Menuetto meets the Moderato e grazioso definition, that's for sure, and the Presto con fuoco displays snap, crackle, pop, and nice sforzandi. FFG offers playing that's more or less the same in terms of tempi, but the playing is less about clean articulation than about groovy forward motion and flexibility. This is a live recreative event. Which one is better, clean and straight-forward or flexible and mischievous? It's a mood thing and damn close to a tie.
Winner: FFG, by the slimmest of margins.
Match 3: Minsoo Sohn vs Paul Badura-Skoda
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Sohn opens ever so tentatively in the Presto of 10/3, but that quickly moves to just slightly slower than some other reading playing, but playing possessed of almost crushing forte blasts, though of the entirely non-banging variety. Serious as the plague, it's also immediately inviting, in one of the great "how'd he do that?" feats of pianism. Come the Largo, and Sohn heads right for Schnabel territory in terms of slowness and drama. A minute swifter at a still slow 10'34", Sohn wrings serious, nearly severe drama from the music, and the build up to the climax and the climax itself both hit the spot. The Menuetto and Rondo both come off direct and serious, and just super-swell. PBS offers a different approach and soundworld with his instrument, and there's more than a little roughness in the sound when compared to the refined and controlled to the Nth degree Sohn. PBS has the energy, the swagger, the drive in the Presto, but it falls short of the essentially perfect opening from Sohn. The larger relative shortcoming appears in the Largo, where right from the outset the dynamic limitations of the instrument limit dramatic potential. But PBS goes as far as possible with an ancient instrument. (How one wishes Andras Schiff would revisit Beethoven with HIP keyboards as he did with Schubert.) Tense and dramatic on its own terms, PBS delivers the goods. In the outer sections of the Menuetto, PBS makes the instrument hop, making it sound like rustic dance music, and in the Rondo he gets down and boogies. Still, it's Sohn, in one of the great recordings of the work.
In 31/3, Sohn starts off just a bit reserved in the Allegro, and maintains a refined approach, but one where he lets the left hand lead in spots and where the build-up in dynamics always works, and the dual dynamic levels sound swell. Sohn then revs up in the Scherzo, backs off, revs up, and then blam, pounds them keys. It's refined, good fun. The outer sections of the Menuetto flow beautifully, while the middle section is slow with exaggerated dynamic contrasts, and the Presto con fuoco boogies and thunders as it should. PBS starts his Allegro similarly to Sohn, it just sounds smaller and rougher. The wide dynamic contrasts of course sound more limited, but nonetheless they sound nice. The minute dynamic contrasts probably sound a bit better. The Scherzo has ample pep, and here PBS, and presumably microphone placement or mixing desk levels, juice the forte volume a bit. The Menuetto comes across as a scaled down version similar to Sohn's, and the Presto con fuoco has ample, colorful boogie. But when following a proper modern grand version, it doesn't compel as much.
Winner: Sohn
Match 4: Takahiro Sonoda vs Wilhelm Backhaus
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Time for a showdown between two grand old men of different national traditions, Takahiro Sonoda for the Japanese, and Wilhelm Backhaus for the German. Sonoda starts 10/3 with an almost perfect speed Presto, neither rushed nor slow. The playing sounds blended and "natural" in that inhuman clarity is not on offer, though the recorded perspective sounds just right. The Largo is tense and slow, though it could be slower. It could not really be more serious, though, and the climax is potent but not overwhelming. The Menuetto and Rondo both remain comparatively serious, though the latter has some serious pep. Backhaus - in the latest 2019 remaster for the complete Decca box – is recorded much closer, which blunts dynamic contrasts, and as is so often the case, he skips repeats. Also, as is so often the case, the playing sounds right. Serious but not dour, quick but not rushed, it just flows. That applies to all movements. Alas, the older fingers do not sound as secure as Sonoda's in the Presto. The shortened Largo also sounds too sped up in places for satisfactory impact. The Menuetto and Rondo both work well enough and have a sort of free sound compared to Sonoda, but Sonoda gets the nod.
For 31/3, Sonoda starts off slowish in the Allegro and remains on the serious side, even when he the pianist clearly relishes the musical witticisms. The steadiness appeals here, it must be noted. That steadiness carries over into the slow yet still quite effective Scherzo. The Menuetto comes off serious and lovely, and in the Presto con fuoco, Sonoda loosens his tie just a bit, and maybe unbuttons the top button of his shirt. Still serious in mien, it rollicks along nicely. Backhaus also starts the Allegro slowly, and only gradually builds up speed to a moderately quick tempo. He definitely plays with some rhythmic swagger, which he maintains in the nice jocular Scherzo. The Menuetto alternates nicely between lyrical and punchy, while the Presto con fuoco has drive and heft, but remains slightly restrained in terms of tempo. Backhaus may be slightly better here, but it's too close to call.
Winner: Sonoda, by a silver hair
Match 5: Yu Kosuge vs Yusuke Kikuchi
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Oh, why not? Ms Kosuge, who belongs to the zero ugly notes school of Beethoven playing, and who is aided by Sony's premium recorded sound, launches 10/3 with a Presto with oodles of energy and nuanced dynamic contrasts. It's not just the forte playing that catches the ear, but also the delicate diminuendos. Golly, it sounds nice. The rubato exhibits mucho taste and refinement. She takes the Largo at a slow pace, but imbues it with enough energy and tension to satisfy. And again, the small pauses, the touch, the lack of hardness all work splendidly, and the build-up to the climax is superb, but it is the coda where the best stuff is to be heard. The Menuetto and Rondo both display a degree of tonal beauty absent from most other cycles, yet they have the snap and energy where needed. Good stuff. Mr Kikuchi, all swift, classical, and muscular, delivers a reading that's all, well, swift, classical, and muscular. The playing at times sounds nearly nutso fast – past Prestissimo in the opening Presto, that's for sure – but the control is absolute and the tone never sounds hard, only appealingly metallic here and there. His dynamic contrasts rock, too. That becomes more evident in the crashing forte playing in the taut Largo, and those bracing arpeggios smack the listener upside the head. And the fast playing in the last two movements beguiles. There can be no doubt that Kikuchi offers much excitement in his reading, but Kosuge offers just that teeny tiny bit more enjoyment.
Kosuge starts 31/3 slow and quiet, and though her overall timing is a healthy 8'47", the opening Allegro chugs along nicely, with steady accompaniment and laughing melodies. The clarity of voices Kosuge brings also just really works wonders, or at least sounds nice, depending on one's praise preference. The Scherzo has nifty sforzandi, and what it cedes in ultimate speed, it more than makes up for in tiny little touches. (To be clear, it ain't slow, either.) Kosuge goes for slow and gorgeous in the outer sections of the Menuetto, and slow and punchy in the middle, while the Presto con fuoco remains just a bit broad, but the subdued but clear left hand playing bubbling under the right hand works well indeed, as does the slowish and loud playing. (I do enjoy me some of that.) Kikuchi shaves a minute off the Allegro, and the almost slow opening displays tension, things speed up and remain tense, and then things speed up even more, but doesn't sound pressed at all. The Scherzo revs up further, has ear catching sforzandi, and gobs of energy. The Menuetto sounds lovely and taut, and that Presto con fuoco, it just zips and rocks along, I tell you what. As far as straight-ahead takes go, it's one of the best or maybe the best. But Kosuge essentially matches it.
Winner: Kosuge, in an upset
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Match 6: FFG vs Arthur Schnabel
Round two starts off with a Franco-Austrian war! Very exciting, with stakes as high as in any war. Schnabel starts Op 28 with a measured, flowing Allegro. Dynamic contrasts sound perfect, repeated left hand notes sound insistent, right hand runs zippy. It sounds right. Pretty much as right sounding is the Andante, where the primary melody sound measured and lovely, while the second section sounds lighter, funner. Funner yet is the springy, bouncy Scherzo, and the Rondo, a bit chunky rhythmically, nonetheless just kind of cruises along to the end. Superb. FFG starts the piece almost like a pianistic representation of waking up, gently and deliberately building up the music, culminating in a more tense climax to the development section than Schnabel. FFG maintains a broader overall approach, yet manages to maintain nice tension in the Andante, with nicely contrasted sections, which continues with the Scherzo. The stormy middle section and strong coda aside, FFG opts to bubble along gently in the Rondo. This here's a tough call, but Schnabel takes it, just barely.
Op 78 finds Schnabel playing the opening Adagio cantabile in a very beautiful manner, and then going for a tense take on the Allegro ma non troppo. He treats the piece very seriously, and some of the playing sounds as weighty as other middle period masterpieces. The Allegro vivace is all energy and snap and drive. Nice. FFG starts off darker, richer sounding, then moves into zippy but almost dreamy playing, thanks to some fine legato. I suspect some people may find it too much. The Allegro vivace is zippy and punchy by turns. Nice, again. It's kinda touch to choose between the two pianists here.
Winner: Schnabel
Quote from: Todd on April 17, 2024, 03:51:21 PMMatch 4: Takahiro Sonoda vs Wilhelm Backhaus
Winner: Sonoda, by a silver hair
:o
NOOO!!! Not possible! Or should I write:
NEEEIIIN!!! Nicht Moeglich! ? 😇
Well, I guess I cannot argue with Science (?). ;D
When I return home, I will look into
Mr. Sonoda!
Quote from: Cato on April 19, 2024, 05:57:15 AM:o NOOO!!! Not possible! Or should I write: NEEEIIIN!!! Nicht Moeglich! ? 😇
Well, I guess I cannot argue with Science (?). ;D
When I return home, I will look into Mr. Sonoda!
Sonoda's Evica cycle is extremely good, I'd have to think about this some more to be certain, but I'm pretty sure it would make my top 10 cycles.
Quote from: Cato on April 19, 2024, 05:57:15 AM:o NOOO!!! Not possible! Or should I write: NEEEIIIN!!! Nicht Moeglich! ? 😇
Well, I guess I cannot argue with Science (?). ;D
When I return home, I will look into Mr. Sonoda!
Quote from: Atriod on April 19, 2024, 07:02:17 AMSonoda's Evica cycle is extremely good, I'd have to think about this some more to be certain, but I'm pretty sure it would make my top 10 cycles.
For some unknown reason Todd used Backhaus' stereo recording for comparison. The earlier mono recording is generally more successful.
I agree that Sonoda is good and well may be among my top ten cycles too. The many excellent cycles available are difficult to rank precisely. But Backhaus' mono is in my top two, Kempff's mono cycle being the other one.
If you read Todd's evaluations closely it's obvious that he first and foremost is led by his taste, like all of us.
Quote from: prémont on April 19, 2024, 10:58:04 AMFor some unknown reason Todd used Backhaus' stereo recording for comparison. The earlier mono recording is generally more successful.
It is because he is trying to rank his personal #11-20, not his top 10, and the mono version is already in his top 10.
Yes, you are right
Quote from: Brian on April 19, 2024, 11:16:21 AMIt is because he is trying to rank his personal #11-20, not his top 10, and the mono version is already in his top 10.
Yes, you are right. I have re-read the OP. However I didn't imagine this explanation, maybe because I don't see much purpose in ranking no.s 11 to 20. What's the next? Ranking no.s 21 to 30? One can go on ad libitum and the results wouldn't count for anyone.
Quote from: prémont on April 19, 2024, 11:33:07 AMYes, you are right
Yes, you are right. I have re-read the OP. However I didn't imagine this explanation, maybe because I don't see much purpose in ranking no.s 11 to 20. What's the next? Ranking no.s 21 to 30? One can go on ad libitum and the results wouldn't count for anyone.
It's just a vanity project.
BTW, the thread deals with two Beethoven piano sonatas —— the thread's title is inaccurate.
Quote from: Brian on April 19, 2024, 11:16:21 AMIt is because he is trying to rank his personal #11-20, not his top 10, and the mono version is already in his top 10.
Minor correction: it's cycles 11-21.
The overall objective was clearly stated in the last sentence of the first paragraph of the first post.
Quote from: Florestan on April 19, 2024, 11:36:31 AMBTW, the thread deals with two Beethoven piano sonatas —— the thread's title is inaccurate.
Incorrect.
Quote from: prémont on April 19, 2024, 10:58:04 AMFor some unknown reason Todd used Backhaus' stereo recording for comparison. The earlier mono recording is generally more successful.
I agree that Sonoda is good and well may be among my top ten cycles too. The many excellent cycles available are difficult to rank precisely. But Backhaus' mono is in my top two, Kempff's mono cycle being the other one.
If you read Todd's evaluations closely it's obvious that he first and foremost is led by his taste, like all of us.
I too prefer the Backhaus mono cycle in terms of performances, it is the cycle that sounds closest to what his various live recordings sound like in that extra bit of spontaneity/inspiration; which can make all the difference in the world compared to the stereo cycle even if his conception of the music on the two is similar.
That Backhaus mono cycle is squarely in my top 5. I just went through an old post I made on another board and Sonoda Evica does indeed make my top ten, at number 7/8/9 give or take as a couple of the cycles in that ranking are incomplete and one not really a cycle. Plus 5-10 are sort of hard to rank.
Quote from: Todd on April 19, 2024, 12:21:33 PMIncorrect.
Comparison between Different Recordings of Two Piano Sonatas by Beethoven
If the thread's title means the above, mea culpa.
Quote from: Florestan on April 19, 2024, 01:20:22 PMComparison between Different Recordings of Two Piano Sonatas by Beethoven
If the thread's title means the above, mea culpa.
More than two sonatas are involved. Basic stuff.
Quote from: prémont on April 19, 2024, 10:58:04 AMFor some unknown reason Todd used Backhaus' stereo recording for comparison. The earlier mono recording is generally more successful.
Hi premont,
I compared the the performances in the mono and stereo sets a couple of years ago. I found the mono to be better in 9 of the 32 sonatas but only notably better in two sonatas. Op. 2/2 and 2/3 are much better in the mono set, but Op. 7, 10, 14, 22 are only a bit better in the mono set. Of course, Op. 106 was only recorded once, in mono so I don't count that one. So, for performance, I prefer the stereo set for 22/32 and 9/32 for mono. Since I find the sound quality to be much, much better, I reach for the stereo set when I want to hear Backhaus's Beethoven.
Quote from: Florestan on April 19, 2024, 11:36:31 AMIt's just a vanity project.
Todd has been posting his lists for a long time, with his tongue firmly in his cheek regarding the objectivity of his rankings. That said, I find his reviews insightful, enjoyable to read, and his threads have brought to my attention a number of cycles that are well worth hearing.
This is also true for his thread on Liszt's
Années de pèlerinage.
Quote from: George on April 19, 2024, 05:35:53 PMHi premont,
I compared the the performances in the mono and stereo sets a couple of years ago. I found the mono to be better in 9 of the 32 sonatas (Op. 2/2 and 2/3 are much better, Op. 7, 10, 14, 22 are each a bit better.) Since Op. 106 was only recorded once, in mono, that means for performance, I prefer the stereo set for 22/32 and 10/32 for mono. Since I find the sound quality to be much, much better, I reach for the stereo set when I want to hear Backhaus's Beethoven.
Yes, the SQ of the stereo set is indeed better, but I think the sound of the mono set is good for it's time. So I wouldn't choose what to listen to of these two based upon considerations about SQ.
As to the artistic quality I find the mono set generally better. It has more authority and direction than the stereo set, which feels softer in expression. Some of this may however be caused by the more full and mellow sound of the stereo set. I have not made A/B tests though.
Quote from: San Antone on April 19, 2024, 06:29:03 PMTodd has been posting his lists for a long time, with his tongue firmly in his cheek regarding the objectivity of his rankings. That said, I find his reviews insightful, enjoyable to read, and his threads have brought to my attention a number of cycles that are well worth hearing.
20% insight and 80% taste I would say, but never-the-less entertaining reading. Being an avid Beethovenian myself (with special interest in the piano sonatas) I also keep updated with new releases, and Todd's post has been most meaningful to me in terms of what not to waste my time on.
Match 7: Minsoo Sohn vs Takahiro Sonoda
Sohn takes his sweet time in the broadly timed Allegro of Op 28, and he doesn't play in an especially flowing manner, but the subdued approach, the cleanly articulated right hand playing (and left hand when needed), and perfect dynamic terracing all work splendidly. The broad approach and Sohn's forte prowess yields a maximally satisfying climax in the movement, with deep, rich left hand playing after. Sohn maintains a slow approach in the Andante, and the clarity and dynamics and control make it work. The Scherzo remains restrained in the outer section, but zippy in the middle, but those dynamic contrasts remain, fast or slow. Sohn keeps it slow in the Rondo, too, with only the galloping coda speeding up, but as a display of absolute pianistic control, this recording rocks. Sonoda hardly comes off as a speed demon, but the insistent left hand playing imparts tension, and the sound is brighter and edgier. The steadiness, the evenness, the clarity, Sonoda more or less exemplifies the straight-ahead approach here. Sonoda goes slow in the outer sections of the Andante, and a bit quicker in the middle section. While it works well, it lacks the supreme refinement of Sohn. Both the Scherzo and Rondo return to no-frills, straight-ahead playing of a very high order. This is yet another case where two pianists I rate highly vary only very slightly qualitatively. It's basically a tie.
That rich opening chord of Op 78, and the perfectly judged tempo in the entire first movement, married to that pristine control, means that Sohn nails it. The punchy, vibrant, cutting Allegro vivace caps off a great rendition. Sonoda sounds leaner, more metallic, but offers another master class in straight-ahead playing start to finish. The seriousness of his playing always appeals, but it is the slight flexibility and even finer control that gives this one to Sohn.
Winner: Sohn
Quote from: prémont on April 20, 2024, 03:02:46 AM20% insight and 80% taste I would say, but never-the-less entertaining reading. Being an avid Beethovenian myself (with special interest in the piano sonatas) I also keep updated with new releases, and Todd's post has been most meaningful to me in terms of what not to waste my time on.
Yes, all our opinions relect a large proportion of what 'we' like in Beethoven's sonatas and this is influenced by many factors. For example, as a pianist and having played many of the sonatas I might have perspectives that might differ from those who don't play the piano. I also think that our initial hearing of a sonata tends to stick with us - imprinted on the mind as something to refer back to. My question for Todd is does he have a definitive performance that he consciously or subconsciously refers back to when he hears new performances?
Quote from: Good question, which BTW is difficult - probably even for Todd - to answeHolden on April 20, 2024, 12:50:29 PMYes, all our opinions relect a large proportion of what 'we' like in Beethoven's sonatas and this is influenced by many factors. For example, as a pianist and having played many of the sonatas I might have perspectives that might differ from those who don't play the piano. I also think that our initial hearing of a sonata tends to stick with us - imprinted on the mind as something to refer back to. My question for Todd is does he have a definitive performance that he consciously or subconsciously refers back to when he hears new performances?
It's a challenging question, likely difficult for even Todd to answer. When I listen, I attempt to be unaware of all other recordings except the one I'm currently hearing. Whether I'm successful, I cannot be certain, but I do believe that most recordings of Beethoven's piano sonatas offer substantial value. Thus, I consider excessive "ranking" to be pointless, including categorizing into first, second, and third tiers. For instance, Todd places O'Conor and Lortie in the third tier, and Jando and Müller in the fourth tier. Such distinctions are futile and nonsensical and merely reflect Todd's personal taste.
Quote from: Holden on April 20, 2024, 12:50:29 PMMy question for Todd is does he have a definitive performance that he consciously or subconsciously refers back to when he hears new performances?
Annie Fischer's Hungaroton Op 57, otherwise no.
Quote from: prémont on April 20, 2024, 01:59:26 PMThus, I consider excessive "ranking" to be pointless, including categorizing into first, second, and third tiers.
So?
Quote from: prémont on April 20, 2024, 01:59:26 PMIt's a challenging question, likely difficult for even Todd to answer. When I listen, I attempt to be unaware of all other recordings except the one I'm currently hearing. Whether I'm successful, I cannot be certain, but I do believe that most recordings of Beethoven's piano sonatas offer substantial value. Thus, I consider excessive "ranking" to be pointless, including categorizing into first, second, and third tiers. For instance, Todd places O'Conor and Lortie in the third tier, and Jando and Müller in the fourth tier. Such distinctions are futile and nonsensical and merely reflect Todd's personal taste.
Please take this with the spirit it is intended, but I think you are missing the point of Todd's threads.
Of course they reflect his individual, personal, taste/opinion. Each set he reviews is being compared to his "ideal" performance based on listening to dozens of sets - which I feel must be respected, for what it is worth. Plus I consider Todd an excellent writer about music, specifically these Beethoven recordings.
There comes a point, when after listening to most of the available recordings, and spending time to formulate comparative reviews, that one's personal, individual taste takes on something more than merely subjective, and approaches a more meaningful opinion. Yes, based on a specific set of criteria informed by one person's taste - but valuable nonetheless.
Those of you also claiming to be experienced with dozens of Beethoven complete piano sonata recordings have not attempted to do this in kind of depth surveying. Todd has.
I applaud this contribution to our forum, which after all is a venue with the express purpose for classical music listeners to post our opinions about recordings, and other related phenomena.
Quote from: San Antone on April 20, 2024, 07:29:30 PMThere comes a point, when after listening to most of the available recordings, and spending time to formulate comparative reviews, that one's personal, individual taste takes on something more than merely subjective, and approaches a more meaningful opinion. Yes, based on a specific set of criteria informed by one person's taste - but valuable nonetheless.
Once I shared that opinion, but the more I listen, the more I realize that most recordings as to the musician are technically perfect and also possess their own artistic merit (of course the SQ may vary). But there is no ideal performance. I have my personal preferences (a matter of taste, really), but to declare some as superior or inferior and to claim that one's judgment is objective seems excessive. I regard Todd's writings as amusing, and they certainly are entertaining, yet I consider his rating system to be irrelevant.
Quote from: prémont on April 21, 2024, 01:10:05 AMI regard Todd's writings as amusing, and they certainly are entertaining, yet I consider his rating system to be irrelevant.
When was it claimed that the rating system was relevant?
Match 8: Yu Kosuge vs Irina Mejoueva
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Kosuge launches a broad take on the Allegro with perfect pacing. All tempo relationships are flawless, low level dynamic gradations are superswell, and forte passages display heft. Lyricism also appears in abundance. Slow, steady, and calm playing pervades the opening of the Andante, with gently rollicking and pastorale playing the second section. Kosuge keeps the outer sections of the Scherzo slow-ish and steady, and steams through the middle section. She then ends with a Rondo of straight forward tempo and with thundering loud playing, though she does speed up notably during such passages. Overall, this is a corker of a Pastorale.
Mejoueva, the only woman to record two complete LvB sonata cycles at the time of this writing, starts with an advantage: she uses a 1922 Steinway D. For whatever combination of reasons, pianos – or Steinways and Bechsteins, at least – built in the 1920s sound better to my ears than those built before and since. Combine that with proper playing, and well, good things happen. Right from the start, Mejoueva opts for a quicker overall tempo, tetchier rubato leading to less seamless flow, and just as many dynamic contrasts. The thinner, brighter sound of the piano when compared to the closely miked modern grand results in a punchier, grittier feel, but one oozing refinement, too. Um, yeah. As good as Kosuge's swelling forte playing sounds, Mejoueva's has a sort of nimble yet smooth increase to peak volume that sounds more satisfying, and the right-hand runs are clean 'n' clear. Mejoueva takes the Andante at a quick clip and really hits the accents hard. The movement moves forward in a steady overall manner, it's just ear catching to hear all the different and shifting emphases. The middle section sounds lighter and more playful to offer contrast. The Scherzo is dispatched with speed and walloping dynamic contrasts and spicy sforzandi and no little rhythmic crackle. The quick Rondo has some purposely stilted left hand playing to start and peppered throughout, but the effect enhances and does not detract from the proceedings, and the brisk tempo and punchy coda satisfy, indeed. As good or even great as Kosuge's take sounds, Mejoueva's sounds better yet, and quite different. So Mejoueva takes it, but these are both likely top twenty takes, and maybe better than that.
Kosuge starts Op 78 with slow, slightly subdued, and definitely lovely cantabile playing and then amps things up, and her ability to deliver supremely steady playing really works well. Even better, the all-upper register passage before the coda hints at the "little stars" of Op 111. The quick and punchy Allegro vivace boasts sweet left hand playing and hints of bite. This recording presents this piece as music border on late period style. Right from the opening chord, Mejoueva delivers elevated playing of this sonata. It is not weighed down, nor does it display late-LvB transcendence, but it seems rather more rarified than Opp 5x works. More than Kosuge, and owing partly to that magnificent piano, Mejoueva's upper register playing sounds even more like the "little stars" and the bright playing sort of hypnotizes. The Allegro vivace sounds prankish and punchy, with superb dynamic contrasts, clarity where needed, blurred paying where appropriate. Again, as fantastic as Kosuge's playing is, Mejoueva's satisfies just that little bit more.
Winner: Mejoueva
Quote from: Todd on April 21, 2024, 04:07:48 AMWhen was it claimed that the rating system was relevant?
By publishing your ratings, you apparently deem them relevant.
But your personal considerations about recordings of Beethoven's piano sonatas have always been interesting reading, even when I have completely disagreed with you.
Quote from: prémont on April 21, 2024, 04:33:47 AMBy publishing your ratings, you apparently deem them relevant.
No, that is how you misinterpret the posts.
Quote from: prémont on April 21, 2024, 01:10:05 AMOnce I shared that opinion, but the more I listen, the more I realize that most recordings as to the musician are technically perfect and also possess their own artistic merit (of course the SQ may vary). But there is no ideal performance. I have my personal preferences (a matter of taste, really), but to declare some as superior or inferior and to claim that one's judgment is objective seems excessive. I regard Todd's writings as amusing, and they certainly are entertaining, yet I consider his rating system to be irrelevant.
My last on this - let's just let the thread be what it was intended. I also am interested in these kids of ranked surveys. About a decade ago I started the same kind of thing for the Liszt B Minor Sonata.
I assembled over 250 recordings, from my own collection, Spotify, and YouTube. I devised a numerical rating system based on nine divisions of the work, and had at it. I had accomplished about 90% of the work over a period a several months, with on marathon session over a weekend. I had compiled all the data in an Excel spreadsheet, all, that is, but the last weekend's work when the thumb disk I had been using stopped working.
I sill have the last version of the data file I had backed up, and something of a top ten list based on half of the recordings - but have never gone back and tried to complete the project.
So my hat's off to Todd for his time and effort and sharing his results, personal though they be.
Quote from: San Antone on April 21, 2024, 04:41:34 AMMy last on this - let's just let the thread be what it was intended.
Agreed. Back to topic.
Quote from: San Antone on April 21, 2024, 04:41:34 AMAbout a decade ago I started the same kind of thing for the Liszt B Minor Sonata.
I assembled over 250 recordings, from my own collection, Spotify, and YouTube. I devised a numerical rating system based on nine divisions of the work, and had at it. I had accomplished about 90% of the work over a period a several months, with on marathon session over a weekend. I had compiled all the data in an Excel spreadsheet, all, that is, but the last weekend's work when the thumb disk I had been using stopped working.
Liszt B minor Sonata is a pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty good piece of music that I was comparing as well but then got derailed by something else. Last I left off Claudio Arrau and Polina Leschenko were leading the pack, though a dark horse emerged (not a pianist I'm normally drawn to) with Stephen Hough.
For anything that doesn't violate HIPAA I now do everything on Google Docs; I haven't experienced any sort of data corruption yet aside from CD-Rs, GDocs just makes it so easy to access the information anywhere.
After two rounds of eliminations, it's time for the final smackdown with Op 110. It'll be an A/B/C comparison. No more ado will do, so:
(https://media1.tenor.com/m/j6SOwCgL6OEAAAAC/tekken-tekken3.gif)
Match 9: Schnabel vs Mejoueva vs Sohn
Schnabel starts with a brisk Moderato cantabile molto espressivo, though one where he starts quietly, properly contrasts dynamics, plays with a singing tone, and creates a transcendental sound. And a remarkably smooth one, at that. Schnabel then pushes the Allegro molto to an almost reckless degree, though excitement is undeniably high and of-the-moment. The first arioso sounds elevated and serious and alternately quick and somberly held back. The fugue is quick, and accurate and clear enough. The second arioso sounds similar to the first, ends with nice enough repeated chords, then transitions to a slightly too rushed inverted fugue, but it works quite nicely.
Sohn takes the opening movement more broadly, more beautifully, more initially delicately than Schnabel, and evokes a transcendental sound. Obviously aided by superior modern recorded sound, the minutest dynamic contrasts sound fantastic, and Sohn sort of undulates the volume. The swift but not rushed Allegro molto thunders and whispers where needed, benefits from superb clarity, and just sounds superb. The final movement starts with an Arioso that immediately sounds elevated and transcendent, and Sohn shows himself as at home hammering out forte blasts or barely eking out the gentlest pianissimo notes. The broad overall timing of the movement becomes more apparent in the crystal clear fugue, which also maintains an elevated, serious, at times austere feel. The second arioso sounds more serious than the first, the repeated chords build up wonderfully, then very slowly transition to a hushed, ethereal start to the inverted fugue, which then speeds up, intensifies, all while remaining clear. Nice.
Mejoueva starts off slow and with ample cantabile playing, then speeds up considerably, playing with a transcendental pulsing sound, and nifty upper register playing. The return of slow playing sounds more elevated, and the whole movement maintains tension. Mejoueva brings the left hand heat in the Allegro molto, playing at a pace that allows some of the heavy-hitting to breathe. The first arioso is taken daringly slowly, with some uniquely accented right hand playing adding a sense of despondency to the music. While transcendent, there's also something of a 106 Adagio feel. The fugue is controlled, somber, and nicely clear. The second arioso sounds tenser and definitely swifter than the first, and the repeated chords gradually build up, only reaching high levels in the last two. The inverted fugue starts slow and meticulous, and gradually builds up to a strong coda. Good stuff.
Winner: Sohn, by the narrowest of margins over Mejoueva.
After world-leading comparative analysis, it is clear that the first change I must make to my list is to banish Fazil Say from sets 11-21 and place him among the merely outstanding, regular second-tier cycles. Sacrifices must be made, and all that. It is also clear that Artur Schnabel, ejected from the Top Ten by Daniel-Ben Pienaar, must be compared to the top ten anew to determine if his banishment remains permanent. Minsoo Sohn and Irina Mejoueva also deserve a shot at fights to the death with the old guard. Yu Kosuge does as well. The combatants have been selected. Now I must find the time for the most important comparative listening in the history of the world.