GMG Classical Music Forum

It is my personal conviction that out of every composer I know, Schubert must surely be considered the most consistently brilliant.

Yes, there is something boyish about his music, but that makes it all the more sensitive. For this innocence makes the music more sincere, especially in moments of dramatic power.

Furthermore, this 'power' is particularly interesting, for it is both subtle (in his piano music) and more overt as in his eighth symphony. I am not sure Beethoven can be considered anywhere near as brilliant in this grasp of the subtleties of power. Schubert's music is so intelligent in its personal simplicity, without embodying the hardcore enlightentment concepts that Beethoven does. It is this quality that makes his music so timeless. It is about emotions, every day ones, about things in life we all experience, rather than more the meta-narrative ideas of Beethoven or Wagner.

For a young composer, and one so restrained from bombast, I also always admire his confidence to make such music without massive statements flowing through it, while avoiding the outright boredom of many of the supposed sincere composers we are supposed to enjoy (like bach!).

He gets me going every time.

Am I a madman?

Quote from: Paul-Michel on April 25, 2008, 05:54:19 AMAm I a madman?

Yes.  But Schubert is still among the very greatest, and I can understand why you appreciate him the way you do.  Can't say I agree with the statements about Beethoven, but so it goes.

Schubert is in my first tier of composers.

Quote from: MN Brahms on April 25, 2008, 07:43:45 AM
Schubert is in my first tier of composers.

So is he in mine, but I hardly see why it's necessary to denigrate Bach or Beethoven in order to exalt him.

Quote from: Sforzando on April 25, 2008, 08:10:59 AM
So is he in mine, but I hardly see why it's necessary to denigrate Bach or Beethoven in order to exalt him.

They're in my first tier as well.  0:)

Now that that's decided, what's next? ::)

Quote from: Sforzando on April 25, 2008, 08:10:59 AM
So is he in mine, but I hardly see why it's necessary to denigrate Bach or Beethoven in order to exalt him.
[/quote

What is wrong with everyone here? Why must everything be taken so seriously?

Also, I don't see how I deingrated beethoven. But you would see it as that, because you treat these people like gods.

Quote from: Paul-Michel on April 25, 2008, 11:09:19 AM
Why must everything be taken so seriously?

Because internet forums are the most important things ever in the history of the world.

Quote

Am I a madman?

No idea, but of all composers, Schubert just may be nearest and dearest to me too.

What is wrong with everyone here?
- So long as you include yourself in that "everyone"  . . .

Why must everything be taken so seriously?
- Because for once you seemed to be trying to start a serious discussion.

Also, I don't see how I deingrated beethoven.
- "I am not sure Beethoven can be considered anywhere near as brilliant in this grasp of the subtleties of power."

But you would see it as that, because you treat these people like gods.
- Actually I don't. Beethoven was deeply flawed as a man, and has his share of less than stellar compositions. But I treat Beethoven and Bach with as deep a level of reverence as you do Schubert.

Schubert has long been my favorite composer. One is tempted to a defensive reaction although this isn't really necessary. Treating composers like gods is not really justified. Composers in different ages have been faced with differing creative problems and it is not possible to compare them like for like. Schubert's melodic gifts are second to none and he knew how to use them to build strong musical structures. What more can you ask?

Schubert is also one of my favourites and I suppose the thing that stands out for me is his melodic invention. If I was asked to name some of the most moving pieces of melody ever written, Schubert immediately comes to mind - well before Beethoven, Brahms, Mozart or even Bach. The only comoser who comes close is Chopin. Just listen to the String Quintet in C major - one of the music wolds greatest masterpieces IMO and you can see why. But to really hear Schubert at his best you have to listen to his lieder. Such beautiful and moving melodies. Even the simpler ones like Nacht und Traum are just superb.

Quote from: Holden on April 25, 2008, 01:38:15 PM
Schubert is also one of my favourites and I suppose the thing that stands out for me is his melodic invention. If I was asked to name some of the most moving pieces of melody ever written, Schubert immediately comes to mind - well before Beethoven, Brahms, Mozart or even Bach. The only comoser who comes close is Chopin. Just listen to the String Quintet in C major - one of the music wolds greatest masterpieces IMO and you can see why. But to really hear Schubert at his best you have to listen to his lieder. Such beautiful and moving melodies. Even the simpler ones like Nacht und Traum are just superb.

Yes, I should have used that word: melody, for it is in using mechanism his sensitivity comes across.

I agree about the lieder, I've got that massive 21cd box set with Moore/Fisher Dieskau - very good.

I hardly think, still, that saying Schibert uses subtlety better than beethoven is denigrating, thats a very strong word!

Quote from: Paul-Michel on April 25, 2008, 05:54:19 AM
It is my personal conviction that out of every composer I know, Schubert must surely be considered the most consistently brilliant.

I wouldn't call him consistently brilliant. Schuberts massive output is an uneven body of work, sometimes desperately boring, yet his best works are among the supreme masterpieces of music. He also lacks the diversity of Beethoven and Bach, but had he lived longer that might have been different. I put him first among the second tiers.

Quote from: Bach Man on April 25, 2008, 03:45:51 PM
He also lacks the diversity of Beethoven and Bach, but had he lived longer that might have been different.

Speaking of diversity, I wish Schubert had composed a piano concerto or violin concerto ..........

Yet there is far more diversity in Schubert's music than in, say, that of Wagner or Mahler, and, yes, Beethoven and Bach are both at times boring. We do, for instance have masses and piano duets. There is also some very fine music in his operas and it is unfortunate that the librettos are so poor.

Quote from: Dm on April 25, 2008, 04:01:05 PM
Speaking of diversity, I wish Schubert had composed a piano concerto or violin concerto ..........

It might have been interesting, but I wonder if Schubert didn't realize, at least subconsciously, that he was better at the smaller, subtler forms and could not out-Beethoven Beethoven.  (The Great C Major Symphony is a wonderful exception, whether it's #9 or #7. ;D)

I don't think we can say for sure that either Schubert or Beethoven were "better."  They were too different in temperament. But we can say for sure that they were both among the greatest musicians who ever set pen to paper.

Quote from: jochanaan on April 26, 2008, 03:53:35 PM
It might have been interesting, but I wonder if Schubert didn't realize, at least subconsciously, that he was better at the smaller, subtler forms and could not out-Beethoven Beethoven.  (The Great C Major Symphony is a wonderful exception, whether it's #9 or #7. ;D)

Schubert could churn out large-scale works along with the best of them.  0:)  In addition to the Great C Major Symphony, he wrote six compelling large-scale masses, an oratorio, and over a dozen operas ( :o ) ....... all within his short lifetime.  0:)  They are not as well known as his small-scale stuff, but he certainly could master large-scale materials ..........

My guess is that he simply never got around to the concerto form/genre ..........  :'(

Quote from: Paul-Michel on April 25, 2008, 05:54:19 AM
while avoiding the outright boredom of many of the supposed sincere composers we are supposed to enjoy (like bach!).

Will you people get your hands off Bach?

The problem with Schubert is that once you get over his melodies (which will happen eventually), there's nothing really to go back to, where as i could probably listen to Bach to the end of infinity and not get bored with him.

Quote from: Dm on April 26, 2008, 06:38:17 PM
Schubert could churn out large-scale works along with the best of them.  0:)  In addition to the Great C Major Symphony, he wrote six compelling large-scale masses, an oratorio, and over a dozen operas ( :o ) ....... all within his short lifetime.  0:)  They are not as well known as his small-scale stuff, but he certainly could master large-scale materials ..........

Uh, good point. :-[ I withdraw my earlier comment. :)

Quote from: Dm on April 26, 2008, 06:38:17 PM
Schubert could churn out large-scale works along with the best of them.  0:)  In addition to the Great C Major Symphony, he wrote six compelling large-scale masses, an oratorio, and over a dozen operas ( :o ) ....... all within his short lifetime.  0:)  They are not as well known as his small-scale stuff, but he certainly could master large-scale materials ..........

My guess is that he simply never got around to the concerto form/genre ..........  :'(

Or more likely, the concerto was alien to his more introspective temperament. (Which doesn't mean Schubert's works are not difficult to play, at least for pianists - he throws such fatiguing octave passages at the pianist as the ending of the first movement of the Wanderer, and there is no greater punishment for the pianist's right wrist than the accompaniment to Erlkoenig.)

As for subtlety, I don't consider small-scale forms necessarily more subtler than large forms. There's very little in terms of subtlety that can match, for example, Beethoven's treatment of the Neapolitan in the 40-minute-long C# minor quartet, op. 131. But an important point is that, dying at the age of 31, Schubert's output consists in large part of juvenalia. Only towards the end of his short life was he producing expansive instrumental forms like the C major quintet, last three piano sonatas and the unfinished C major (the "Relique"), last four string quartets, and the B minor and C major symphonies. And in this respect he was starting to go in a different direction than that taken by Beethoven. Think of the phantasmagoric middle passage of the slow movement of the late A major piano sonata, or the highly lyrical and expansive opening to the Bb major sonata. (I happen to think that the B minor symphony - as well as the Relique sonata - was left incomplete because Schubert couldn't see his way towards constructing an appropriate finale for either. Certainly the Brian Newbold conclusion for the Unfinished solves nothing.) No way of knowing obviously where he would have gone had he lived as many years (57) as LvB, but what we consider "late" Schubert might well have been relatively early and immature compared to what might have happened.

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on April 26, 2008, 06:52:56 PM
Will you people get your hands off Bach?

The problem Schubert is that once you get over his melodies (which will happen eventually), there's nothing really to go back to, where as i could probably listen to Bach to the end of infinity and not get bored with him.

I can't agree here. For example, take the D960 sonata and it's sublime slow movement which has very sparse melody but is just so inspiring. I'll never get over Schubert's melodies or the unique sonorities in his music, yet his ability to craft a larger scale work is defintely a plus. Viola D786 is a 15 minute song that never loses its appeal throughout. The Great C major symphony is also exceptionaly well constructed.

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on April 26, 2008, 06:52:56 PM
Will you people get your hands off Bach?

The problem Schubert is that once you get over his melodies (which will happen eventually), there's nothing really to go back to, where as i could probably listen to Bach to the end of infinity and not get bored with him.

Agreed. Schubert = catchy and seductive tunes in almost endless sequence. And when you dive into his music, you are soon aware of his shallowness. But he wrote some of the best tunes ever written.

Quote from: premont on April 27, 2008, 05:05:03 AM
Agreed. Schubert = catchy and seductive tunes in almost endless sequence. And when you dive into his music, you are soon aware of his shallowness. But he wrote some of the best tunes ever written.

But I am not aware of his shallowness. What shallowness are you talking about?

Quote from: Sforzando on April 26, 2008, 08:16:17 PM
No way of knowing obviously where he would have gone had he lived as many years (57) as LvB, but what we consider "late" Schubert might well have been relatively early and immature compared to what might have happened.

Sure, but his youthful works do not get better by thinking of what we are missing.

Quote from: Sforzando on April 27, 2008, 05:08:10 AM
But I am not aware of his shallowness. What shallowness are you talking about?

In my opinion his movements in sonata form e.g. generally lacks contrast and drama. As you know, the point of the sonata form as designed by its inventors is the contrast (in the exposition) and the "fight" (in the development section) between the first and second theme. You find this in the music of Haydn, Beethoven - even Mozart, and many others, but very seldom in the music of Schubert. This is why I find quite a lot of his works tame. They are indeed often very beautiful, and this is why I sometimes listen to his music.

Quote from: premont on April 27, 2008, 05:11:35 AM
Sure, but his youthful works do not get better by thinking of what we are missing.

Of course not. But you (and M. des Prez) seem to see nothing in him than a clever purveyor of catchy tunes. I would think a study of the first movement of the Unfinished Symphony (there was an excellent discussion of this symphony in the archives of this site, led by John Q. Public), or the two completed movements of the Relique sonata, or the passage from the A major sonata I've appended, should be enough to refute that notion.

Responding to your last post, I think there's no lack of contrast and drama in the works I've enumerated. But Schubert seemed to be finding his way also towards a more expansive, lyric, concept of sonata form than is found in Beethoven. I don't dispute for a minute that there's a lot of ordinary stuff in the earlier quartets and sonatas - though he could produce a very fine imitation of Mozart in something like the 5th symphony. I would even go so far as to say the melodic content of much of the earlier music is "tame" as well (the finale of the D major piano sonata is so trite as to drive me crazy). But the first movement of the unfinished C major sonata, which I consider one of his greatest achievements, shows that he was entirely capable of absorbing the language of Beethovenian development as well.

Quote from: premont on April 27, 2008, 05:22:52 AM
In my opinion his movements in sonata form e.g. generally lacks contrast and drama. As you know, the point of the sonata form as designed by its inventors is the contrast (in the exposition) and the "fight" (in the development section) between the first and second theme. You find this in the music of Haydn, Beethoven - even Mozart, and many others, but very seldom in the music of Schubert. This is why I find quite a lot of his works tame. They are indeed often very beautiful, and this is why I sometimes listen to his music.

I think poor Schubert deserves more credit than that. He need not live up to a Beethoven to be truly original.

As has been noted Schubert's music is proto-romantic and as such leaves behind classical-era conventions. So referencing him to those who came before him does him an injustice.

When I listen to Schubert I'm more aware of his forward-thinking innovations, like taking the focus off of 'sectionalism' (contrasting themes) and the placing it more on developing an inner dialog between voices. He literally runs rampant with this interplay and if you want contrasts it's here where it'll knock your socks off!

I'll admit I didn't recognize this right away in Schubert since so many performers on disc seem to be more up for 'mood Schubert' - which emphasizes prettifying his music. But don't get caught in that trap. Schubert is far more than a string of cutsie bon-bons.

Quote from: Sforzando on April 27, 2008, 05:35:46 AM
But you (and M. des Prez) seem to see nothing in him than a clever purveyor of catchy tunes.

Well, saying that he wrote nothing but "catchy tunes" is needlessly dismissive. I think his tunes are among the very finest ever written. That's a considerable achievement in it self and enough to place him on the higher tier of composers. The fact remains that beyond his incredible inspiration there isn't much in terms of formal invention and craftsmanships, i mean, not when compared to the likes of Bach. This goes beyond his use of form, which is actually excellent, at least in the opening movements.

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on April 27, 2008, 09:32:35 AM
Well, saying that he wrote nothing but "catchy tunes" is needlessly dismissive. I think his tunes are among the very finest every written. That's a considerable achievement in it self and enough to place him on the higher tier of composers. The fact remains that beyond his incredible inspiration there isn't much in terms of formal invention and craftsmanships, i mean, not when compared to the likes of Bach. This goes beyond his use of form, which is actually excellent, at least in the opening movements.

Quote from JdP: "The problem Schubert is that once you get over his melodies (which will happen eventually), there's nothing really to go back to."

QED. How much more dismissive can you get?

Quote from: premont on April 27, 2008, 05:22:52 AM
In my opinion his movements in sonata form e.g. generally lacks contrast and drama. As you know, the point of the sonata form as designed by its inventors is the contrast (in the exposition) and the "fight" (in the development section) between the first and second theme...

But music can take on forms never envisioned by its developers--nor is it merely a "competition" between various elements.  There's no reason the sonata-allegro form can't be used for "peaceful purposes." :)  Schubert's "lack of drama" (I speak in a comparative sense; really, there's plenty of drama, as others point out) is a fine foil to Beethoven's massive dramas.

That's the great thing about "our" music: there's something for everyone.  If only everyone would listen! :'(

Quote from: Sforzando on April 27, 2008, 09:50:10 AM
Quote from JdP: "The problem Schubert is that once you get over his melodies (which will happen eventually), there's nothing really to go back to."

QED. How much more dismissive can you get?

Well, ok, but i was trying to make a point there. Schubert is one of those composers that i can only listen to after extended breath of times because i have to make sure i'm in the best possible mood to enjoy his melodic and emotional content to it's fullest. If i'm not in the correct mood, the experience is generally not entirely satisfactory. This may be in part because of my depression, which makes everything rather low hum, including music, and in part because i've listened to those works tens of times already, but the fact is Schubert seems to rely on inspiration for the most part and it's something that i cannot ignore. By contrast, i can listen to Bach or Mozart on a daily basis and never get tired of it.

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on April 27, 2008, 10:51:48 AM
Well, ok, but i was trying to make a point there. Schubert is one of those composers that i can only listen to after extended breath of times because i have to make sure i'm in the best possible mood to enjoy his melodic and emotional content to it's fullest. If i'm not in the correct mood, the experience is generally not entirely satisfactory. This may be in part because of my depression, which makes everything rather low hum, including music, and in part because i've listened to those works tens of times already, but the fact is Schubert seems to rely on inspiration for the most part and it's something that i cannot ignore. By contrast, i can listen to Bach or Mozart on a daily basis and never get tired of it.

I don't understand this.  I'm depressive too, but Schubert and other great music always puts me in "the right mood"! :D

Quote from: jochanaan on April 27, 2008, 10:33:42 AM
There's no reason the sonata-allegro form can't be used for "peaceful purposes." :) 

:D

Quote from: Sforzando on April 27, 2008, 05:35:46 AM
But Schubert seemed to be finding his way also towards a more expansive, lyric, concept of sonata form than is found in Beethoven.

Yes.  And let's not forget that Schubert's organic, seamless mastery of VARIATION is on par with LvB and Mozart.

Quote from: jochanaan on April 27, 2008, 10:55:15 AM
I don't understand this.  I'm depressive too, but Schubert and other great music always puts me in "the right mood"! :D

I was depressive too until i discovered what depression really is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anhedonia

Quote from: premont on April 27, 2008, 05:22:52 AM
In my opinion his movements in sonata form e.g. generally lacks contrast and drama. As you know, the point of the sonata form as designed by its inventors is the contrast (in the exposition) and the "fight" (in the development section) between the first and second theme. You find this in the music of Haydn, Beethoven - even Mozart, and many others, but very seldom in the music of Schubert. This is why I find quite a lot of his works tame. They are indeed often very beautiful, and this is why I sometimes listen to his music.

So I take it you're not that impressed with Chopin either?                        

Quote from: donwyn on April 27, 2008, 08:22:56 AM
When I listen to Schubert I'm more aware of his forward-thinking innovations, like taking the focus off of 'sectionalism' (contrasting themes) and the placing it more on developing an inner dialog between voices. He literally runs rampant with this interplay and if you want contrasts it's here where it'll knock your socks off!

Your point of view seems immediately more fruitful than most I have seen until now. I will bear your words in mind.

Quote from: Holden on April 27, 2008, 12:02:44 PM
So I take it you're not that impressed with Chopin either?                        

No, you are wrong. Some years ago I decided to investigate Chopin thoroughly. I had always been fascinated by his extraordinary idiomatic piano writing, so I spent about three months listening exclusively to Chopin, scores in hand. Too much repetition gradually caused my interest in his seductive melodies to fade considerably, and I reached some sort of saturation point, but fortunately my stubbornness prompted me to continue my listening, and of course I overcame the deadlock and found out, that there is much more in his music than melting melodies in elegant coating, and as you now may guess, I ended up liking especially the Preludes, the Etudes and the Nocturnes very much, even if I - in the end - prefer music from another age. But I understand easily, why some people may harbour a strong passion for Chopin. I have not reached to that point with Schubert yet.

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on April 27, 2008, 12:01:57 PM
I was depressive too until i discovered what depression really is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anhedonia

Ah.  That's one form of depression, but not the form I've got.  I get plenty of pleasure from normally pleasurable things.  But all this talk about depression is making me sad; let's get back to Schubert's music--definitely a "normally pleasurable thing" for me! ;D

Quote from: jochanaan on April 27, 2008, 02:30:47 PM
But all this talk about depression is making me sad; let's get back to Schubert's music

Yes indeed - how about that Winterreise, huh?  >:D

Quote from: premont on April 27, 2008, 01:01:52 PM
Your point of view seems immediately more fruitful than most I have seen until now. I will bear your words in mind.

Donwyn, can you elaborate?

Quote from: Sforzando on April 27, 2008, 05:26:26 PM
Donwyn, can you elaborate?

I understand Donwyn so, that you (or one) should not look at Schuberts music (instrumental music) as consisting only of melodi and chordal accompaniment, but you should look at what happens in the inner parts, Donwin in this way suggesting the presence of some polyphonic writing. I can not say, that I think Schuberts music immediately invites to such a perspective, or it may be the attitude of most performers, which make me think so. But the idea is thought-provoking, why I take it ad notam.

Schubert is my third favorite composer.  His late works are unbelievably good.  In my opinion, his final year of composing is perhaps the greatest of all time.  :)

Quote from: Sforzando on April 27, 2008, 05:26:26 PM
Donwyn, can you elaborate?

Quote from: premont on April 28, 2008, 05:08:32 AM
I understand Donwyn so, that you (or one) should not look at Schuberts music (instrumental music) as consisting only of melodi and chordal accompaniment, but you should look at what happens in the inner parts, Donwin in this way suggesting the presence of some polyphonic writing. I can not say, that I think Schuberts music immediately invites to such a perspective, or it may be the attitude of most performers, which make me think so. But the idea is thought-provoking, why I take it ad notam.

Well, this is from the hip, so to speak, as I lack anything in the way of advanced musical training (had some college courses, though)...but I'll hazard a sort of thumbnail summary...

I wouldn't necessarily call Schubert 'polyphonic', but I'd go out on a limb and say there are kernels of such a thing in the music. It's more a 'multiplicity' of sorts than anything, taking on the image of polyphony what with all the musical ideas barbing at each other and invading each other's space. It often reminds me of Stravinsky in that there isn't really a sense of a "Beethovenian Building Block" type of structure - just heaps of notes arranged strategically to provide firm and definite shapes. Large, sweeping gestures (themes), while present, need not carry as much import.

It's here where I feel Schubert loses his 'classicist' identity and looks more to the future. I think of Berlioz, and perhaps Liszt and Wagner, and on into the twentieth century. Classicist structures as a whole obviously dissolved over time and I believe Schubert was one of the first to make good use of such a change.

I've long given up looking for classicist roadsigns in Schubert. There's no denying that earlier in his career he held to earlier conventions but there was a gradual transition from about midpoint in his career that edged closer and closer to a full-on experimental format. Overlap occurred of course with conventional methods still vying for space alongside all the tinkering but the watershed moment came at about the time of the Wanderer Fantasy. From that moment on Schubert never looked back.

Cast in a structure fully reminiscent of the romantic era - one continuous movement - the Wanderer Fantasy was the deepest Schubert had gone yet into new territory. Full of pathos, it is, and dripping with a new kind of Schubertian emotion. No more pretty tunes, just good solid emotionalism - a la romantic.

From there the floodgates open wide. Listening to the opening movement of the B flat piano sonata (his last) it's impossible to think of Schubert as mere Tunemeister. The "New Multiplicity" has taken hold. There's a precipitous bent to that movement and it's a testament to his technical prowess that it succeeds so well. Can't chalk that one up to mere melody...

Anyway, 'daunting' is the way I define Schubert from about midpoint in his career. Little of the 'simple' or 'tuneful' rears its head by this point (think early Beatles and late Beatles :P ;D). With this new musical paradigm comes added complexity. But in my experience, on record anyway, it's an uncommon thing to encounter a performer who's willing to sacrifice the 'tunefulness' to get to the more decadent side of the music. Fortunately there are those who DO take a liking to this side of Schubert and it's to them I warm to most.

None of this of course is really an adequate explanation of what I mean by 'inner complexity' in the music. All I can say is that Schubert to my ears really took a liking to tinkering with layers. Unfortunately his 'tunefulness' carries so much weight that that's what gets the lions share of exposure.

In closing, I offer this quote from Liszt (about Schubert), saying in just a few words what I've failed to say in all this rambling:

"Such is the spell of of your emotional world that it very nearly blinds us to the greatness of your craftsmanship." -- Franz Liszt


[Forgive any typos and such...it's late...]

Quote from: premont on April 27, 2008, 01:48:52 PM
No, you are wrong. Some years ago I decided to investigate Chopin thoroughly. I had always been fascinated by his extraordinary idiomatic piano writing, so I spent about three months listening exclusively to Chopin, scores in hand. Too much repetition gradually caused my interest in his seductive melodies to fade considerably, and I reached some sort of saturation point, but fortunately my stubbornness prompted me to continue my listening, and of course I overcame the deadlock and found out, that there is much more in his music than melting melodies in elegant coating, and as you now may guess, I ended up liking especially the Preludes, the Etudes and the Nocturnes very much, even if I - in the end - prefer music from another age. But I understand easily, why some people may harbour a strong passion for Chopin. I have not reached to that point with Schubert yet.

Good response and some valid points made. I find that Schubert 'grew' on me over a period of time. I started off playing his piano works (Impromptus, Moments Musical then the sonatas and realised that early Schubert in this genre was nowhere as polished as his later efforts. But when I discovered his chamber, choral and vocal music that I realised the genius of the man. It took me a while and while you persevered with Chopin can I suggest that you do the same with Schubert

Quote from: Paul-Michel on April 25, 2008, 05:54:19 AM
It is my personal conviction that out of every composer I know, Schubert must surely be considered the most consistently brilliant.

Is this the same Schubert the renowned musical mimic? He of the 'patchwork quilt' school of composition?

Quote from: Paul-Michel on April 25, 2008, 05:54:19 AM
Am I a madman?

Not the type of question you should ask here.  :-\

Quote from: donwyn on April 28, 2008, 09:50:15 PM

But in my experience, on record anyway, it's an uncommon thing to encounter a performer who's willing to sacrifice the 'tunefulness' to get to the more decadent side of the music. Fortunately there are those who DO take a liking to this side of Schubert and it's to them I warm to most.

Thanks, donwyn for this elaboration, which I find most useful. Now I would like to ask you , which performers you think in the most clear way express, what you are describing.
Or better, I would ask for some relevant recommendations.

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on April 27, 2008, 10:51:48 AM
Well, ok, but i was trying to make a point there. Schubert is one of those composers that i can only listen to after extended breath of times because i have to make sure i'm in the best possible mood to enjoy his melodic and emotional content to it's fullest.

The development of a work like the String quintet is absolutely gripping. His talent for this is obvious. His ability to write long chamber and piano pieces proves it (more than 40mn for many of them).
Although he's probably less complex than Bach, Beethoven or Schumann, the way he uses his material is not less interesting to listen.
Even his first quartet, composed at the age of 12 or 13, does not lack interest (without equalling the art of fugue or LvB's last quartets of course ::))

Quote from: quintett op.57 on April 29, 2008, 08:47:44 AM
The development of a work like the String quintet is absolutely gripping.

Difficult to find a better chamber work than that one, IMO.  Top notch!   ;D

I love Schubert's piano sonatas. As Schnabel said of them, "they are a safe supply of happiness"  :)

Quote from: quintett op.57 on April 29, 2008, 08:47:44 AM
The development of a work like the String quintet is absolutely gripping. His talent for this is obvious. His ability to write long chamber and piano pieces proves it (more than 40mn for many of them).
Although he's probably less complex than Bach, Beethoven or Schumann, the way he uses his material is not less interesting to listen.
Even his first quartet, composed at the age of 12 or 13, does not lack interest (without equalling the art of fugue or LvB's last quartets of course ::))

The String Quintet is stunning, of course, but the fact he likes to tackle larger forms isn't necessarily to his advantage. Most of his works are top heavy, the first movements being wonderfully constructed, stunningly original and divinely inspired, but the final movements always lag behind and are often seemingly redundant. That, i believe, it's a sign a formal deficiency.

Look, i'm not trying to disparage his music, i'm only bringing a bit of perspective here. I have no doubt that, had he lived as long as Bach, or Beethoven, he would have been able to develop a more substantial technical refinement, and i think it's worth mentioning that neither Bach nor Beethoven had written anything any where near as inspired as the C major Quintet, or the G major quartet in their early periods. It seems that for them inspiration came later, after they had mastered their craft to it's fullest. For Schubert, pressed by the mortal coils of his illness, he had to achieve transcendence prematurely, while his technique was still in a formative process, and perhaps it was just as well. In a way, i can't envision him delving into thick contrapuntal textures or writing monumental double fugues, it wouldn't be the same.

Quote from: B_cereus on April 29, 2008, 12:41:13 PM
I love Schubert's piano sonatas. As Schnabel said of them, "they are a safe supply of happiness" 

If I had a nickel for every time I came across this (in red) about Schubert... >:( ;D

But it's just the type of thing that gives Schubert a stigma. There's much more to him than that...

(Nothing against what you wrote, though, B_cereus :))

Quote from: premont on April 29, 2008, 05:24:42 AM
Thanks, donwyn for this elaboration, which I find most useful. Now I would like to ask you , which performers you think in the most clear way express, what you are describing.
Or better, I would ask for some relevant recommendations.

You're welcome, premont! Glad it made sense...

Recommendations for recordings:

Piano sonatas:

Richter, Andsnes, Gilels

String Quartets:

Takács (on Decca, though their recent Hyperion is good, too)

Piano Trios:

Beaux Arts (digital cycle)

The String Quintet is a bit of an anomaly. Yes it's a great, great work but to me its foundation is built not so much on 'complexities' (of form) but on sparkling billows of ephemera. But ephemera in a most tangible sense, if that makes any sense. There's plenty of substance, but it's a sort of "clutched from the outside world" type of substance. Hors catégorie I guess I'd call the work...difficult to label...

To that end, for the quintet my two favorite recordings are the Hollywood Quartet and the Quatuor Sine Nomine on Claves.


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513DF23RBFL._SS500_.jpg)

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/e8/fa/f715828fd7a0d9bfb7d30110.L.jpg)

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on April 29, 2008, 08:02:13 PM
and i think it's worth mentioning that neither Bach nor Beethoven had written anything any where near as inspired as the C major Quintet, or the G major quartet in their early periods.

Nonsense, at least in Beethoven's case. Beethoven's quintet Op29 is at the very least as inspired as anything I've heard from Schubert, C major especially. And Beethoven has the added bonus of his own genuine style even in his first period, something sorely missing from Schubert's confused collection of other composers styles.

By coincidence I ran a comparison of string quintets, including the C Major and Op29, at my site a few weeks back, including a number of tracks, videos etc. Even the Schubert fans could not maintain your position above after these demonstrations. Another example of the Schubertian cult exposed.

It would not be such a big deal if the Schubertians were not so quick to raise their hero above all and sundry, Beethoven in particular (and not just early Beethoven, but late Beethoven too!). I showcased some of their claims at my site also, that made for good entertainment. But under detailed examination the stack of cards comes tumbling down.

Even on Schubert's own hallowed turf, the Lied, Beethoven's Kenst du das Land makes a mockery of Schubert's effort with the same text.  0:)

Well, that's answered that, then. Rod has spoken his mighty word (and strewn upon the faithful an abundance of clips), and the pernicious anti-Beethovenites of the Schubert Cult have been exposed as the fools they are. Go, Rod!

Quote from: lukeottevanger on April 30, 2008, 06:33:37 AM
Well, that's answered that, then. Rod has spoken his mighty word (and strewn upon the faithful an abundance of clips), and the pernicious anti-Beethovenites of the Schubert Cult have been exposed as the fools they are. Go, Rod!

Thanks!  ;D

But I'm not making it up, there are plenty of quotes by musically educated persons on the web anyone can find in seconds if they know how to use a search engine. The thing is it is not Beethoven he trounces (though he seems to be their favourite target), but by default all the others too, even the small town composers you like Luke. It would not be a problem but young naiive persons visiting forums such as this may start to think these notions about Schubert are true unless they are addressed in a more critical fashion.

Anyway, as you were gentlemen...

Quote from: Rod Corkin on April 30, 2008, 06:56:45 AM
Thanks!  ;D

But I'm not making it up, there are plenty of quotes by musically educated persons on the web anyone can find in seconds if they know how to use a search engine. The thing is it is not Beethoven he trounces (though he seems to be their favourite target), but by default all the others too, even the small town composers you like Luke. It would not be a problem but young naiive persons visiting forums such as this may start to think these notions about Schubert are true unless they are addressed in a more critical fashion.

Oh, but I do think Schubert trounces most of the 'small town composers I like', Rod. I have enough perspective on the weight my tastes carry to know that my own personal favourites are not necessarily the very finest. Though of course some of them are - Schubert and Beethoven both figure on the list of these personal favourites, and they both are among those finest. So what if Schubert is so many degrees below Beethoven, or above him, or equal to him? - he writes music which gives things Beethoven never gave, and vice versa. And so I wouldn't want to be without either.

Schubert makes a great supplement to LvB.

Quote from: Rod Corkin on April 30, 2008, 04:03:08 AM

By coincidence I ran a comparison of string quintets, including the C Major and Op29, at my site a few weeks back, including a number of tracks, videos etc. Even the Schubert fans could not maintain your position above after these demonstrations. Another example of the Schubertian cult exposed.

Rod is suffering hallucinations all over again.  Schubert is the recognised leader in lieder (no pun intented), and Beethoven's efforts pale into insignificance.  Schubert's String Quintet is widely recognised to be far superior to Beethoven's  Op 29 effort.  I'd take Schubert's chamber, orchestral and sacred music in preference to Beethoven's any day.  So come off it, Rod, admit you're talking your usual load of cobblers, probably as a ploy to stimulate a few uniformed innocents to register on your board.

As for the so-called "demonstrations", the only things that happen on your board are that people fall asleep regularly.  It's been virtually dormant for weeks.  Yes, you tried to whip up an anti-Schubert campaign, but like most things on your site it fell flat on its face.  Nobody wanted to play ball, and who can blame them when it's obvious that your game is merely to make bold and assertive comments about the alleged weaknesses of all composers other than Beethoven and Handel.   

You also sponsors one of looniest anti-Mozart cranks on the Internet, and there's no-one on your site apart from yourself (or any site that I'm aware of) who takes him seriously.  I would have thought you might have your lesson by now that most people find your attitude, and the kind of activity you sponsor against other composers, both seriously ill-informed and insulting. 

Wow, Harry posts over there.

Quote from: lukeottevanger on April 30, 2008, 07:10:27 AM
Oh, but I do think Schubert trounces most of the 'small town composers I like', Rod. I have enough perspective on the weight my tastes carry to know that my own personal favourites are not necessarily the very finest. Though of course some of them are - Schubert and Beethoven both figure on the list of these personal favourites, and they both are among those finest. So what if Schubert is so many degrees below Beethoven, or above him, or equal to him? - he writes music which gives things Beethoven never gave, and vice versa. And so I wouldn't want to be without either.

Well at my site even Beethoven's songs went down better than Schubert's in my comparative test. Seriously Beethoven's songs are very underrated. But I'm sure there must have been some genre Schubert attempted that Beethoven never really got involved with, and if so, in those such cases I will allow the noble Schubert his supremacy!

Quote from: Mango on April 30, 2008, 07:23:29 AM
Schubert's String Quintet is widely recognised to be far superior to Beethoven's  Op 29 effort. 

Recognised by whom..? The music I hear contradicts that notion. The Schubert piece is just another patchwork quilt like most of the others.

Quote from: Mango on April 30, 2008, 07:23:29 AM
As for the so-called "demonstrations", the only things that happen on your board are that people fall asleep regularly.  It's been virtually dormant for weeks.  Yes, you tried to whip up an anti-Schubert campaign, but like most things on your site it fell flat on its face. 

That would explain how Rod has the time and interest to put forth his odd opinions on this board.

I would welcome some extra members here.. 8) The more the merrier. ;D

Maybe we should reverse the add campaign - do Rod's forum members know we are here?  0:)

Q

Quote from: Mango on April 30, 2008, 07:23:29 AM
Rod is suffering hallucinations all over again.  Schubert is the recognised leader in lieder (no pun intented), and Beethoven's efforts pale into insignificance.  Schubert's String Quintet is widely recognised to be far superior to Beethoven's  Op 29 effort.  I'd take Schubert's chamber, orchestral and sacred music in preference to Beethoven's any day.  So come off it, Rod, admit you're talking your usual load of cobblers, probably as a ploy to stimulate a few uniformed innocents to register on your board.

As for the so-called "demonstrations", the only things that happen on your board are that people fall asleep regularly.  It's been virtually dormant for weeks.  Yes, you tried to whip up an anti-Schubert campaign, but like most things on your site it fell flat on its face.  Nobody wanted to play ball, and who can blame them when it's obvious that your game is merely to make bold and assertive comments about the alleged weaknesses of all composers other than Beethoven and Handel.   

You also sponsors one of looniest anti-Mozart cranks on the Internet, and there's no-one on your site apart from yourself (or any site that I'm aware of) who takes him seriously.  I would have thought you might have your lesson by now that most people find your attitude, and the kind of activity you sponsor against other composers, both seriously ill-informed and insulting. 

Mango, welcome!!   :)  I remember you from TC, and again I thank you for having introduced me to Schubert's great String Quintet in C!  :)

Quote from: ChamberNut on April 30, 2008, 08:00:17 AM
Mango, welcome!!   :)  I remember you from TC, and again I thank you for having introduced me to Schubert's great String Quintet in C!  :)

I remember Mango too from TC, in all my years on the web I've met nobody like it (I'm yet to be convinced of the gender). Can't say any more here in public...

TC?

Quote from: Mango on April 30, 2008, 07:23:29 AM

As for the so-called "demonstrations", the only things that happen on your board are that people fall asleep regularly.  It's been virtually dormant for weeks.  Yes, you tried to whip up an anti-Schubert campaign, but like most things on your site it fell flat on its face.  Nobody wanted to play ball, and who can blame them when it's obvious that your game is merely to make bold and assertive comments about the alleged weaknesses of all composers other than Beethoven and Handel.   

What are you talking about? Dormant?? I didn't know you were a member Mango, and non-members only have access to one of ten forums there. But if anything goes dormant it means all that needs to be said has been said, or do you expect this topic for example to go on forever??

Quote from: MN Brahms on April 30, 2008, 08:14:46 AM
TC?

Talk Classical

Crazy Forum

Quote from: Don on April 30, 2008, 07:47:24 AM
That would explain how Rod has the time and interest to put forth his odd opinions on this board.

Don I advise you in advance, whatever you think of me, please ignore anything written by Mango on any subject.

I only pick on topics here where I read something that sparks my attention, usually something I don't agree with. The fact that is it not at my forum is irrelevant, I'll argue with anyone anywhere if I think something unjust is being written.

Quote from: Rod Corkin on April 30, 2008, 07:42:20 AM
Recognised by whom..? The music I hear contradicts that notion. The Schubert piece is just another patchwork quilt like most of the others.

Recognised by the market.  Will that do?  I'm referring to the fact that there are far more recordings of Schubert's String Quintet than Beethoven's effort, which indicates a general preference for the former.  Schubert's piece is often talked about on informed radio programmes like BBC's Radio 3.  It  was recently subject to "Building a Library" treatment, and incidentally the Hagen Quartet version came out best, in case you'd like to buy it.  Beethoven's piece is not talked about in anything like the same terms.

Your problem is that you are self-brainwashed with Beethoven and Handel, exclusively.  How you can survive on a diet of only these two composers' works completely baffles me.  It has obviously given you musical constipation, with occasional bouts of verbal diarrhoea. 

As regards your reply to Don, you are now clearly panicking, advising other members to ignore my comments when it's obvious that they already know about you. 

Quote from: Que on April 30, 2008, 07:52:52 AM
I would welcome some extra members here.. 8) The more the merrier. ;D

Maybe we should reverse the add campaign - do Rod's forum members know we are here?  0:)

Q

Well the members of my forum that are also members of this forum will be aware of this forum. As for the others, I have no idea. I look forward to you actually posting your ad there Que, instead of just snooping about. But it must have the official sanction of GMG if it is a proper ad and not just a signature. And if so CMM rules state that a proper ad for CMM must be allowed here! You can put GMG in your signature if you like without issue, but you'll have to actually post something, quite a few things in fact, for any one to see it!

Quote from: Rod Corkin on April 30, 2008, 08:22:07 AM
Talk Classical

Crazy Forum

It's No 1 in the league table and has been for a long while.  Just Google "Classical music forum".  They all loved you there, didn't they Rod?

Quote from: Mango on April 30, 2008, 08:34:21 AM

As regards your reply to Don, you are now clearly panicking, advising other members to ignore my comments when it's obvious that they already know about you. 

Not really, just offering advice that will save people trouble later. No worries if they chose to ignore it, I'm not here enough for you to become an serious issue for me personally.

Quote from: Mango on April 30, 2008, 08:43:12 AM
It's No 1 in the league table and has been for a long while.  Just Google "Classical music forum".  They all loved you there, didn't they Rod?

I recall a few people quit TC because of your behaviour Mango.

Anyway I've had my fill of this topic, said all that needs to be said, so i will leave it to go dormant.

Adios

Quote from: Rod Corkin on April 30, 2008, 08:41:00 AM
I look forward to you actually posting your ad there Que, instead of just snooping about.

I have no intention of doing so - neither to post, nor to snoop as you call it.
In fact, I logged in recently to see if I could end my membership of your precious forum - but no such possibility. But you can consider this as a request to make it happen, oh dearest Rod...

Q

Quote from: Mango on April 30, 2008, 07:23:29 AM
Rod is suffering hallucinations all over again.  Schubert is the recognised leader in lieder (no pun intented), and Beethoven's efforts pale into insignificance.  Schubert's String Quintet is widely recognised to be far superior to Beethoven's  Op 29 effort.  I'd take Schubert's chamber, orchestral and sacred music in preference to Beethoven's any day.  So come off it, Rod, admit you're talking your usual load of cobblers, probably as a ploy to stimulate a few uniformed innocents to register on your board.

As for the so-called "demonstrations", the only things that happen on your board are that people fall asleep regularly.  It's been virtually dormant for weeks.  Yes, you tried to whip up an anti-Schubert campaign, but like most things on your site it fell flat on its face.  Nobody wanted to play ball, and who can blame them when it's obvious that your game is merely to make bold and assertive comments about the alleged weaknesses of all composers other than Beethoven and Handel.   

You also sponsors one of looniest anti-Mozart cranks on the Internet, and there's no-one on your site apart from yourself (or any site that I'm aware of) who takes him seriously.  I would have thought you might have your lesson by now that most people find your attitude, and the kind of activity you sponsor against other composers, both seriously ill-informed and insulting. 

Nice to see that Rod's legions of devoted admirers follow him wherever he goes. 

Quote from: Rod Corkin on April 30, 2008, 08:45:04 AM
I recall a few people quit TC because of your behaviour Mango.

Anyway I've had my fill of this topic, said all that needs to be said, so i will leave it to go dormant.

Adios

That's a laugh.  I left voluntarily.  You and Robert Newman left is less fortunate circumstances.  All I did was to tackle you two in the only way possible, i.e. with heavy doses of sarcasm.  Thanks for giving me the credit for being the "worst" case you've come across in 10 years.  I didn't know you cared. 

Quote from: Sforzando on April 30, 2008, 08:55:45 AM
Nice to see that Rod's legions of devoted admirers follow him wherever he goes. 

Not quite.  These events at T-C took place almost a year ago.  Up to that time, T-C was one of the most liberal classical music boards; afterwards it became one of the most heavily regulated, and still is, which is why it now only attracts mainly a bunch of kids.  I've not bothered with Rod and Newman since that time, but I spotted his stupid comments here about Schubert and I decided to join the discussion. Unfortunately, Rod decided to leave suddenly.

Hey, Rod left but the topic hasn't "gone dormant" yet. What gives?  ;D

Quote from: Mango on April 30, 2008, 09:06:20 AM
Not quite.  These events at T-C took place almost a year ago.  Up to that time, T-C was one of the most liberal classical music boards; afterwards it became one of the most heavily regulated, and still is, which is why it now only attracts mainly a bunch of kids.  I've not bothered with Rod and Newman since that time, but I spotted his stupid comments here about Schubert and I decided to join the discussion. Unfortunately, Rod decided to leave suddenly.

Perhaps you mistook my irony. I did not mean to imply that you personally were unduly concerned with Rod, but rather to express my astonished awe that a person of his erudition and perspicacity inspires admiration and affection where'er he walks.

Quote from: Rod Corkin on April 30, 2008, 04:03:08 AM
Nonsense, at least in Beethoven's case. Beethoven's quintet Op29 is at the very least as inspired as anything I've heard from Schubert, C major especially.


It would not be such a big deal if the Schubertians were not so quick to raise their hero above all and sundry, Beethoven in particular (and not just early Beethoven, but late Beethoven too!). I showcased some of their claims at my site also, that made for good entertainment. But under detailed examination the stack of cards comes tumbling down.

Beethoven is my God amongst the composers so while I am lauding him do I therefore have to mock Schubert? NO, of course I don't. And to say that Beethoven was a greater composer of vocal, choral and lieder compositions tends to fly in the face of general opinion. As a life long Beethoven scholar it isone area that I feel Beethoven tended to struggle in. His meagre output in this regard would tend to prove this. Beethoven only published when he was happy with the results (unless he was on commision - Wellington's Victory is and example here). Yes, give Beethoven his due but give Schubert his too.

Quote from: Rod Corkin on April 30, 2008, 04:03:08 AM
Nonsense, at least in Beethoven's case. Beethoven's quintet Op29 is at the very least as inspired as anything I've heard from Schubert, C major especially.

Sorry, but you are wrong. Deadly, utterly wrong. There's nothing in Beethoven's entire oeuvre that is even remotely comparable to Schubert's late chamber works until the Rasumovsky quartets, and that's still arguable. 

Quote from: Rod Corkin on April 30, 2008, 04:03:08 AM
And Beethoven has the added bonus of his own genuine style even in his first period, something sorely missing from Schubert's confused collection of other composers styles.

Erm, no, not really. Beethoven shows a similar "confused" collection of the styles of his predecessors. This doesn't mean he didn't have a distinct personal voice even in his early works, just like Schubert does, but his style only reached complete maturity in his middle works.

Quote from: Rod Corkin on April 30, 2008, 04:03:08 AM
It would not be such a big deal if the Schubertians were not so quick to raise their hero above all and sundry.

Pot calling kettle back? I mean, seriously.

Quote from: Rod Corkin on April 30, 2008, 04:03:08 AM
Even on Schubert's own hallowed turf, the Lied, Beethoven's Kenst du das Land makes a mockery of Schubert's effort with the same text.  0:)

Not that it wasn't clear, but you, sir, are completely and utterly insane.

Quote from: Rod Corkin on April 30, 2008, 04:03:08 AM
Nonsense, at least in Beethoven's case. Beethoven's quintet Op29 is at the very least as inspired as anything
I've heard from Schubert, C major especially.

Yes, what you have heard. But you listen with your ears.

Quote from: Holden on April 30, 2008, 12:05:53 PM
Beethoven is my God amongst the composers so while I am lauding him do I therefore have to mock Schubert? NO, of course I don't. And to say that Beethoven was a greater composer of vocal, choral and lieder compositions tends to fly in the face of general opinion. As a life long Beethoven scholar it isone area that I feel Beethoven tended to struggle in. His meagre output in this regard would tend to prove this. Beethoven only published when he was happy with the results (unless he was on commission - Wellington's Victory is and example here). Yes, give Beethoven his due but give Schubert his too.

I happen to like Schubert a great deal and would place him among my all-time favourites thus far in my listening career. Former favourites have included Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schumann, Brahms, Tchaikovsky - so I reckon I'm hardly a novice.  I find Schubert's very late works (between the death of Beethoven and his own) to be among the crown jewels of classical music.  There's a lot more besides which I greatly enjoy, and I don't think there is anything of significance by Schubert which is missing in my collection.  Quite apart from all his most memorable works, I find much of interest in some of his early chamber works, and I've also collected a fair bit of his various opera works which contain lots of glorious music. For me, Schubert's sacred music is among the best and I particularly like D 950, his last Mass.  Schubert's piano duos are played rather less these days in comparison with his splendid sonatas and various miniatures, but among these exist some of the best that have ever been written.  Another very likeable, but under-played, area of Schubert's work is his violin sonatas and violin/orchestral works, e.g. D 349, 384, 574, 580, 895, 934. 

One comment made earlier by someone was that Schubert's work doesn't sound any better merely for the fact that he died young and thus a great potential was lost.  I'm afraid that I don't agree with this.  I somehow treasure what we do have all the more because I feel that are probably just the beginning of what might otherwise have been.  I'm pretty sure that had he lived at least a few years longer and continued to produce a few more works of such superb quality as D 956, D 958, D 959, D 960 his reputation today would be even more secure as among the very best.  In addition, I'm aware that Schubert wrote a lot of work without commission, very quickly, and that he probably heard little if any of the late chamber/orchestral work actually played. For this reason, the occasional rough edges, and the occasional tendency to prolixity, don't bother me.  As far as I'm concerned, nothing even remotely gets close to the magical, surreal and melancholic features that Schubert was able to infuse into his music.  As is well known, Schubert's reputation in his own life time was rather limited and it grew considerably as more hidden works were eventually discovered and catalogued.  Even though Schumann had a very high regard for Schubert, one can only wonder how much higher it might have been if he had been aware of all the other treasures that still lay hidden.

Against this, I feel rather sorry for poor Rod, as he seems to be seriously adrift of mainstream opinion about the quality of work except by Beethoven and Handel.   Of course, he is entitled to his opinion, but why does he have to be so sneering of other great composers?  Looking back casually at his various involvements here and on one or two other Boards where I have found traces of his presence, he must have told at least a hundred times by contributors that in promoting any one composer there's no need to denigrate others.  Sadly, as is clear, he never takes any notice of this.  He particularly likes to denigrate Bach, Mozart and Schubert.  Not content with living alone with this affliction, and leaving others to select their own favourites, he flies around the message board Universe like some kind of musical Flash Gordon trying to convert others to accept his priorities, which does nothing but irritate other people.  I must say too that what I find rather amazing is how seriously some seemingly knowledgeable people seem to regard his opinions as coming from some kind of musical expert, albeit one with rather extreme views, whereas in my opinion he is nothing more than the majority of Board members, i.e. an amateur.  Unless they have had a very long life of musical appreciation and they're now an octogenarian there's no way anyone can be sure that the one they're now championing or defending is the same one they will still keen on in 5 years time.   Once such a change of mind has happened a few times, as has happened to me, it tends to make one a lot more careful about pronouncing any one composer as one's musical "god". 

Quote from: Topaz on April 30, 2008, 11:51:04 PM

Against this, I feel rather sorry for poor Rod, as he seems to be seriously adrift of mainstream opinion about the quality of work except by Beethoven and Handel.   Of course, he is entitled to his opinion, but why does he have to be so sneering of other great composers?  Looking back casually at his various involvements here and on one or two other Boards where I have found traces of his presence, he must have told at least a hundred times by contributors that in promoting any one composer there's no need to denigrate others.  Sadly, as is clear, he never takes any notice of this.  He particularly likes to denigrate Bach, Mozart and Schubert. 

How can anyone denigrate Bach??????

Quote from: Holden on May 01, 2008, 12:02:52 AM
How can anyone denigrate Bach??????

"In 1737 Bach was severely criticized by twenty-three year old Johann Adolf Scheibe (Der Critische Musicus, Hamburg) for removing '...every natural element from his pieces through their bombastic and muddled nature, obscuring their beauty through an over-abundance of art.'"
http://www2.nau.edu/~tas3/leipzig.html (http://www2.nau.edu/~tas3/leipzig.html)

So it was done before.  Get over it -- people have different tastes, and of course in baroque music. 

Quote from: Holden on May 01, 2008, 12:02:52 AM
How can anyone denigrate Bach??????

Stupid people.

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on May 01, 2008, 06:24:04 AM
Stupid people.

De gustibus non est disputandum.

Quote from: fl.traverso on May 01, 2008, 06:37:15 AM
De gustibus non est disputandum.

If we all really believed that, we wouldn't have much of a forum.

Quote from: Sforzando on May 01, 2008, 06:42:09 AM
If we all really believed that, we wouldn't have much of a forum.

Well calling other people 'stupid' doesn't a forum make, or does it?  ;)

Quote from: fl.traverso on May 01, 2008, 06:45:18 AM
Well calling other people 'stupid' doesn't a forum make, or does it?  ;)

Ah. That is the question, isn't it?

Quote from: fl.traverso on May 01, 2008, 06:45:18 AM
Well calling other people 'stupid' doesn't a forum make, or does it?  ;)

It does if they deserve it.  It fosters discussion after all.  ;)

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on May 01, 2008, 06:50:34 AM
It does if they deserve it.  It fosters discussion after all.  ;)

As long as we restrict the "stupid" appellation to opinions and keep it off people. $:)

Schubert is one of my favourite composers. The works of his late period, such as the String Quintet in C, the C Major Symphony, are supreme masterpieces worthy of inclusion among the best in the genre, certainly good enough to withstand comparison with, say, Beethoven's late quartets. It really is a shame that he should die early, just as his technique is maturing, otherwise he might just be the fourth composer in the legendary pantheon of Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven! But then again, he may also peak early like Mendelssohn did, and never again rose to the standards of the compositions he created in this period. There is no way to tell, really; while technical refinements would usually continue to increase with more experience, inspiration is altogether a more mysterious thing and could just decline unexpectedly without precedent.

Regarding Beethoven, I would say that, objectively, he is a greater composer than Schubert in almost all genres except for vocal music. Despite the works produced in his late period, Beethoven still has the advantage of churning out masterpieces on that level on a more prolific, consistent basis, i.e. it's a case of too little, too late for poor Schubert.

Quote from: Rod Corkin on April 30, 2008, 04:03:08 AM

By coincidence I ran a comparison of string quintets, including the C Major and Op29, at my site a few weeks back, including a number of tracks, videos etc. Even the Schubert fans could not maintain your position above after these demonstrations. Another example of the Schubertian cult exposed.

Sorry, Rod, but I must say that the comparison you did at your site – and I'm not normally given to such strong language, but in this case I fear I can't hold myself – is RUBBISH. You can't just attach clips of excerpts from the respective works and expect them to speak for themselves – everyone would hear the works with different ears, wouldn't they? Why don't you post a detailed musical analysis of the works here, and we shall see how it stands up to scrutiny.

Quote from: Paul-Michel on April 25, 2008, 05:54:19 AM

Furthermore, this 'power' is particularly interesting, for it is both subtle (in his piano music) and more overt as in his eighth symphony. I am not sure Beethoven can be considered anywhere near as brilliant in this grasp of the subtleties of power. Schubert's music is so intelligent in its personal simplicity, without embodying the hardcore enlightentment concepts that Beethoven does. It is this quality that makes his music so timeless. It is about emotions, every day ones, about things in life we all experience, rather than more the meta-narrative ideas of Beethoven or Wagner.

The fact that Schubert's music deals more with everyday emotions and that Beethoven's ideas are more about "hardcore enlightenment concepts" does not make one composer better than the other. It just means that they would appeal to different people and different occasions.

IMO, there is no lack of subtlety in Beethoven compared to Schubert. Have you heard the late quartets? This whole myth about Beethoven about a heaven-stormer who shouts from the mountain-top is really not doing anything good for the appreciation of the aforesaid composer (It may make him more popular, though). Also, subtlety is not only reserved to small-scale works, and the fact that the music made a "massive statement" does not always mean that it has no subtlety.

Quote from: fl.traverso on May 01, 2008, 12:14:23 AM
"In 1737 Bach was severely criticized by twenty-three year old Johann Adolf Scheibe (Der Critische Musicus, Hamburg) for removing '...every natural element from his pieces through their bombastic and muddled nature, obscuring their beauty through an over-abundance of art.'"
http://www2.nau.edu/~tas3/leipzig.html (http://www2.nau.edu/~tas3/leipzig.html)

So it was done before.  Get over it -- people have different tastes, and of course in baroque music. 

Well, that quote at least points towards the qualities present in Bach's music: contrapuntal complexity and a heavy emphasis on craftsmanship. But I think that in viewing Bach as this old-fashioned, very technical, intellectual composer, a lot of people missed that he also wrote music of great emotional power. I feel that his music is deeply human, very pure and ultimately very simple (I can't think of a better word at the time being). It's like you take this mass of emotion and distils it rigorously until all that is left is its true essence, pure gold, no excess whatsoever. "Removing every natural element"? "Obscuring their beauty"? Au contraire. Next time, after exhausting yourself from a diet of Romantic music, try to listen to some of his piano works, say The Well-Tempered Clavier or the Goldberg Variations. It's like the comforting voice of sanity.

Quote from: jochanaan on May 01, 2008, 07:29:59 AM
As long as we restrict the "stupid" appellation to opinions and keep it off people. $:)

But some people might be too stupid to recognize this...  :D

Quote from: Holden on May 01, 2008, 12:02:52 AM
How can anyone denigrate Bach??????

Why haven't you said "how can he denigrate Bach, Mozart & Schubert"?

I assume you are denigrating the 2 latter

Quote from: jochanaan on May 01, 2008, 07:29:59 AM
As long as we restrict the "stupid" appellation to opinions and keep it off people. $:)

this should be the rule, indeed.

What adjective qualify the best the one who assumes he knows who is stupid and who is not?

Quote from: Monsieur Croche on May 01, 2008, 09:24:54 PM
I feel that his music is deeply human, very pure and ultimately very simple

apart from the contrapuntal complexity, this is true.
This is what gives its sensation of purity to works like the violin partitas.
Bach's works mix simple and complex elements.

Quote from: Monsieur Croche on May 01, 2008, 09:24:54 PM
Well, that quote at least points towards the qualities present in Bach's music: contrapuntal complexity and a heavy emphasis on craftsmanship. But I think that in viewing Bach as this old-fashioned, very technical, intellectual composer, a lot of people missed that he also wrote music of great emotional power. I feel that his music is deeply human, very pure and ultimately very simple (I can't think of a better word at the time being). It's like you take this mass of emotion and distils it rigorously until all that is left is its true essence, pure gold, no excess whatsoever. "Removing every natural element"? "Obscuring their beauty"? Au contraire. Next time, after exhausting yourself from a diet of Romantic music, try to listen to some of his piano works, say The Well-Tempered Clavier or the Goldberg Variations. It's like the comforting voice of sanity.

You display considerable intellectual maturity for a young man of 17 or 18.

Quote from: Monsieur Croche on May 01, 2008, 09:24:54 PM
Next time, after exhausting yourself from a diet of Romantic music, try to listen to some of his piano works, say The Well-Tempered Clavier or the Goldberg Variations. It's like the comforting voice of sanity.

Much as I love Bach, I cannot imagine becoming exhausted by Romantic music, especially not by Schubert.

Quote from: Sforzando on May 04, 2008, 03:41:56 AM
You display considerable intellectual maturity for a young man of 17 or 18.

Thank you. Experience has taught me that age is rarely an accurate indication of maturity, capability, or sophistication. I do like to appear (as in physical appearance) much older than I really am, though, because age carries great import in Chinese societies and when people know you're a kid it can be a little difficult to get yourself taken seriously.

Quote from: Ten thumbs on May 04, 2008, 05:48:46 AM
Much as I love Bach, I cannot imagine becoming exhausted by Romantic music, especially not by Schubert.

I find that music from all eras will exhaust me eventually if I persist on listening to them for a really long period of time. It's just that Romantic music seems to wear me out faster (not that this is any negative indication of its quality!) This is why in my listening I frequently jump from one era to another, just to keep things fresh and interesting. Well, to each his own I guess.

Now back to Schubert...

Quote from: Monsieur Croche on May 04, 2008, 07:09:32 AM
Now back to Schubert...

Good idea.  I see that there has been a bit of argument in this thread, but then that is to be expected when people have strong feelings regarding these composers.  In my case, I'm happy to have the music that all of them have provided, and I'm not too concerned about whether one composer might be better than another.

Over the years, I have listened to Schubert on occasion, but never really connected with him in general, although I have always loved a few works, such as the unfinished 8th Symphony, the Trout Quintet, the "Rosamunde" quartet, and many of the lieder.  Recently, thanks to a few concerts and some CD purchases, I have finally connected with him and found a lot to like.  I still find his work to be a bit uneven, but that is to be expected given that he started early and was quite prolific, leaving behind a great number of youthful works.  (Mozart would be another example of this.)  That said, I find many of his early works enjoyable, while I find his later works far more profound, complex, and interesting.

Perhaps my favorites out of my recent explorations of his work are the Masses.  I never had paid much attention to them before; there are so many composers and so much music that something good is bound to fall through the cracks.  The late E-flat Mass (D.950) is quite expansive and complex, and I'm sure I will discover a lot on repeated listenings.  The shorter G major Mass (D.167) is quite enjoyable, and I find it to be more interesting and complex than many of the other early works.

Does anyone have any recommendations for someone who wants to dig deeper into his music?  I'm looking to explore further.

Heather

Quote from: quintett op.57 on May 04, 2008, 02:20:44 AM
Why haven't you said "how can he denigrate Bach, Mozart & Schubert"?

I assume you are denigrating the 2 latter

Definitely not, it's just that I rate Bach so highly that I can't see anyone denigrating his music.

Quote from: Heather Harrison on May 04, 2008, 12:25:52 PM

Does anyone have any recommendations for someone who wants to dig deeper into his music?  I'm looking to explore further.

Heather

One work you really should look up is the F minor Fantasy for piano duet (D940).

Quote from: Ten thumbs on May 05, 2008, 11:51:57 AM
One work you really should look up is the F minor Fantasy for piano duet (D940).

Especially the stunning performance by Lupu/Perahia!

Thanks.  I just looked it up, and it looks interesting.  I have put it on my list of things to add to my next order.

Heather

Quote from: Heather Harrison on May 04, 2008, 12:25:52 PM
Does anyone have any recommendations for someone who wants to dig deeper into his music?  I'm looking to explore further.

The C major String Quintet and the G major Quartet have already been mentioned. They are my favored Schubert compositions. Seriously, they are among the greatest chamber works ever written, and they contain some of the most heartfelt music you'll ever ear.

I have those, and I also rate them highly.  A while back, I bought a CD set (Emerson String Quartet; with Rostropovich on the Quintet) that includes these and the "Rosamunde" and "Death and the Maiden" quartets, and they are all good.  I recently heard the "Rosamunde" quartet in concert, and that is what reawakened my interest in Schubert.  I'll have to look for more of his late chamber music.

Heather

Quote from: Ten thumbs on May 05, 2008, 11:51:57 AM
One work you really should look up is the F minor Fantasy for piano duet (D940).

Ten Thumbs up!!  :D

I agree, this is a must listen to.  This one really blew me away the first time I heard it.

Quote from: Ten thumbs on May 05, 2008, 11:51:57 AM
One work you really should look up is the F minor Fantasy for piano duet (D940).

And we have a thread for that as well... ;D

Schubert F minor Fantasie for 4 hands D940 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3156.0.html)

Q

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on May 05, 2008, 05:52:14 PM
The C major String Quintet and the G major Quartet have already been mentioned. They are my favored Schubert compositions. Seriously, they are among the greatest chamber works ever written, and they contain some of the most heartfelt music you'll ever ear.

Seconded, thirded, fourthed.... these are both works which I can never tire of. But don't get me started on them....

What I find curious about the overall direction of this thread is that it heavily emphasizes the instrumental works, while Schubert has historically been thought of as one of the most important composers of Lieder. Any collection of Schubert without the three main song cycles, as well as a good sampling of individual songs, would in my opinion not be representative.

Quote from: Sforzando on May 06, 2008, 04:11:24 AM
What I find curious about the overall direction of this thread is that it heavily emphasizes the instrumental works, while Schubert has historically been thought of as one of the most important composers of Lieder. Any collection of Schubert without the three main song cycles, as well as a good sampling of individual songs, would in my opinion not be representative.

Agreed.  But what if you're not into songs?  Just like some people aren't into chamber music.

Quote from: ChamberNut on May 06, 2008, 04:17:30 AM
Agreed.  But what if you're not into songs?  Just like some people aren't into chamber music.

I was that way for most of my life. I avoided anything with singing (ask around, it was a joke around here for a long time). Then I got a disk of Schubert Lieder (and a couple of Mozart operas) and seriously listened to them. It changed my outlook! They are that good. As a fellow chamber nut, I can only recommend you give a listen to maybe a recital disk. We aren't talking about plain chordal accompaniments here, but long lines of quite extraordinary piano work that sets the singing off like no other composer. :)

8)

Quote from: Sforzando on May 06, 2008, 04:11:24 AM
Any collection of Schubert without the three main song cycles, as well as a good sampling of individual songs, would in my opinion not be representative.

I think consensus is strong enough, that such a sentiment transcends your own particular opinion.

ChamberNut (& Gurn), FWIW, I find Schubert's Lieder significantly more readily affable in live performance, than on disc (even when the disc contains an exemplary performance).

Quote from: karlhenning on May 06, 2008, 04:35:11 AM
I think consensus is strong enough, that such a sentiment transcends your own particular opinion.

ChamberNut (& Gurn), FWIW, I find Schubert's Lieder significantly more readily affable in live performance, than on disc (even when the disc contains an exemplary performance).

Well, I'll see if I can talk the fellers down at Joe's Country Bunker into a little Gretchen am Spinnrade (in Tammy Wynette style) next Saturday night...

AHHH DUCK!  :o

Although, of course, you are absolutely right. I would love to see a Schubertiade with a nice variety of songs and chamber/keyboard music. :)

8)

Quote from: ChamberNut on May 06, 2008, 04:17:30 AM
Agreed.  But what if you're not into songs?  Just like some people aren't into chamber music.

I would thing that if Schubert is your "third favorite" composer, you'd want to explore as many of his major achievements as you can.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 06, 2008, 05:28:45 AM
Well, I'll see if I can talk the fellers down at Joe's Country Bunker into a little Gretchen am Spinnrade (in Tammy Wynette style) next Saturday night...

Well, over at The Purple Shamrock they were doing a grand reggae adaptation of Erlkönig.

I have just discovered Schubert's op. 100 along with a whole new world of chamber music (I mostly listened to symphonies before). I am particularly fascinated with the second movement in the Piano Trio No. 2. The initial piano theme sounds to me like it is based on a dance, some strong and solemn rhythm, sounds sort of like a tango to me. Could someone please tell me what dance could that be:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLl432wS_rQ

Don't know what dance it could be, but the tune is a Swedish song, 'Se solen sjunker' (The sun is setting). I've always heard it simply described as a folksong, but apparently there's a little uncertainty about this - Schubert seems to have heard it in 1827 from a visiting Swedish musician called Iask Albert Berg, and it is possible that Berg was the author of the song.

Ah yes, the piece sounds very Scandinavian-like now that you mention it - sort of reminds me of Sibelius (I know, he was from Finland, but still sounds sort of in the same spirit of wide open space covered with snow and lit by the Sun hanging very low and adding colour). However, the song is superimposed on a rhythm that does strongly resemble a dance of Spanish origin - you can hear it in the first few notes opening this movement... I still wonder what could that be as I am still a beginner and do not have proper knowledge about dances.

In studying the history of music I've come across different stories about the early Romantics.  For example, Schubert was someone who looked up to Beethoven and was a torchbearer at his funeral.  After Schubert's death, Schumann (on a trip to Vienna) found the unperformed "Great" C Major Symphony and took it back to Leipzig where Mendelssohn conducted it.

BUT

Did Schubert actually know any of them personally?  Was there a friendship there or was he just known by reputation?

Quote from: hornteacher on February 23, 2009, 04:10:14 PM
In studying the history of music I've come across different stories about the early Romantics.  For example, Schubert was someone who looked up to Beethoven and was a torchbearer at his funeral.  After Schubert's death, Schumann (on a trip to Vienna) found the unperformed "Great" C Major Symphony and took it back to Leipzig where Mendelssohn conducted it.

BUT

Did Schubert actually know any of them personally?  Was there a friendship there or was he just known by reputation?

No.

Schubert did see Beethoven here and there, at dinner and at Tobias' publishing house, but tales of their actually meeting are apocryphal. Mendelssohn wasn't in Vienna, he was in Germany. And Schumann was late to the scene, as you noted. The only musician that there is any documentation for meeting Schubert was Antonio Salieri, who gave him lessons in putting words and music together properly. That is one of the oddities of Schubert's life: he lived in Vienna, the City of Music, but (other than an undocumented, casual meeting) he didn't know any other musicians. All of his friends in the Arts were literary.

8)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 23, 2009, 04:49:49 PM
That is one of the oddities of Schubert's life: he lived in Vienna, the City of Music, but (other than an undocumented, casual meeting) he didn't know any other musicians.

Yes, that's what struck me as odd.  I was trying to trace a linear progression of Romantic composers (i.e. Mendelssohn helped Schumann, Schumann helped Brahms, Brahms helped Dvorak), but Schubert seemed to be off on his own.  Thanks for the details.  You da man, Gurn.

Quote from: hornteacher on February 23, 2009, 05:00:39 PM
Yes, that's what struck me as odd.  I was trying to trace a linear progression of Romantic composers (i.e. Mendelssohn helped Schumann, Schumann helped Brahms, Brahms helped Dvorak), but Schubert seemed to be off on his own.  Thanks for the details.  You da man, Gurn.

Well, coincidentally, I am reading 2 books on Schubert right now, and both of them mention this peculiarity: Schubert was nearly the only major composer who had no friends in the business. A mentor might have been nice, although it may have changed the essential Schubert that we have come to know and love.

You're welcome, amigo. :)

8)

To me Schubert is perhaps the most underestimated composer of all time.

He underestimated himself.
He was severely underestimated by his contemporaries even though Beethoven is reputed to have said that "a divine spark" exists in Schubert.
And...he remains somewhat undervalued today!

How many times does one get to hear his last great Masses and much less so some of the great vocal music extracted from his operas which admittedly were failures in that genre.

There is a hell of allot more to listen to in Schubert than we normally get to hear.

How many times for example, does one get to listen to the German Mass whose Heilig, Heilig (Sanctus) I would nominate as the World's anthem and why not since every nation has one. Change a few words and you have the perfect World Anthem imo.   

Quote from: Heather Harrison on May 04, 2008, 12:25:52 PM
Perhaps my favorites out of my recent explorations of his work are the Masses.  I never had paid much attention to them before; there are so many composers and so much music that something good is bound to fall through the cracks.  The late E-flat Mass (D.950) is quite expansive and complex, and I'm sure I will discover a lot on repeated listenings.  The shorter G major Mass (D.167) is quite enjoyable, and I find it to be more interesting and complex than many of the other early works.
Heather

Yes, I'm on a Schubert 'jag' at the moment - diiging into his music that I'd missed before including these Masses.

I have this set:

(http://www.williamstonebaritone.com/images/cd_schubert_masses_2_&_6.jpg)

Wonderfully profound, moving, uplifting, joyful etc.  0:)

Apart from the B minor and C major 'Great' symphonies (both excellent) I've never read of any of Schubert's earlier symphonies being singled out.

I plan to listen to them all having aquired a boxset, but I'm just wondering...

Is there a 'best of the rest' or are they all fairly average?

:)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 23, 2009, 05:08:15 PM
Well, coincidentally, I am reading 2 books on Schubert right now, and both of them mention this peculiarity: Schubert was nearly the only major composer who had no friends in the business. A mentor might have been nice, although it may have changed the essential Schubert that we have come to know and love.

You're welcome, amigo. :)

8)

I cannot help but think this musicological loneliness deeply informs Schubert's singular idiom.

Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on April 26, 2009, 12:22:00 PM
Apart from the B minor and C major 'Great' symphonies (both excellent) I've never read of any of Schubert's earlier symphonies being singled out.

I plan to listen to them all having aquired a boxset, but I'm just wondering...

Is there a 'best of the rest' or are they all fairly average?

:)

No. 5. You might fool yourself into thinking that it was written by Haydn, or even Mozart. :) Nothing spectacular, but it has a very memorable opening. 

I've just had my first real dip with Schubert in the Alban Berg/Teldec box set, which contains Schubert's SQs D804 "Rosamunde" (a-minor) and D173 in g-minor, and honestly, after the Mozart, I'm just not all that impressed with Schubert yet.

I know I heard "Death and the Maiden" somewhere, but I'm not left yearning for it. I suppose I have yet to hear the last, D887 in G-major. I remember enjoying the Quartettsatz in c-minor once, though.

Cherubini vs. Schubert SQs: who wins?

The man with the "divine spark," just for those last three or four works.

Quote from: snyprrr on May 30, 2009, 12:29:09 AM

Cherubini vs. Schubert SQs: who wins?

that's a deep question isn't it?

Quote from: snyprrr on May 30, 2009, 12:29:09 AM
I've just had my first real dip with Schubert in the Alban Berg/Teldec box set, which contains Schubert's SQs D804 "Rosamunde" (a-minor) and D173 in g-minor, and honestly, after the Mozart, I'm just not all that impressed with Schubert yet.

I know I heard "Death and the Maiden" somewhere, but I'm not left yearning for it. I suppose I have yet to hear the last, D887 in G-major. I remember enjoying the Quartettsatz in c-minor once, though.

STRING QUINTET in C MAJOR, D956  It's a must hear snyprrr!  :)

Quote from: snyprrr on May 30, 2009, 12:29:09 AM
I know I heard "Death and the Maiden" somewhere, but I'm not left yearning for it.

Well, if you're not yearning, you're not yearning.

I have a very nice recording by the Boston Chamber Players to which I enjoy returning.

Quote from: Herman on May 30, 2009, 03:15:23 AM
that's a deep question isn't it?

Just trying to get a Handel on who else was written SQs 1804-26.

Krommer is the other major name, ending with Op.103 (e, C, a; 1821). And Onslow.

Everyone keeps saying of Schubert, "the very last works," so I assume the G major D887 is the biggy.

Schubert's G major quartet is a major piece, yes. So are the other two. Maybe, however, this is not your time...

Quote from: Herman on May 25, 2009, 01:50:26 AM
I cannot help but think this musicological loneliness deeply informs Schubert's singular idiom.

Completely agree. Although I can't help but feel that it is a good thing, not having anyone telling him "no, changing from dominant major to dominant minor is NOT a modulation, Schwammerl...". :)  It seems like a situation akin to Haydn's, as he described it in being isolated in Esterhazy. Even though Schubert was smack in the middle of a major musical metropolis he was still essentially on his own and constantly developing his personal idiom. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Orchestra of Brittany / Sanderling - Méhul Overture to Le Jeune Sage et le Vieux Fou

Quote from: snyprrr on May 30, 2009, 12:29:09 AM

Cherubini vs. Schubert SQs: who wins?

Easy; we do! :)

Two very different things: even though they were composed at the same time, Cherubini's SQ's are quintessentially classical, while Schubert is making his own path. One which was followed by a lot of others in the next 75 years. If you are just coming to Schubert, you will have to spend some time learning his ways, or at least I did. Worth every bit of the effort. :)

8)

Quote from: opus67 on May 30, 2009, 12:56:32 AM
The man with the "divine spark," just for those last three or four works.

?

Much more than that.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 30, 2009, 11:07:37 AM
Two very different things: even though they were composed at the same time, Cherubini's SQ's are quintessentially classical, while Schubert is making his own path. One which was followed by a lot of others in the next 75 years. If you are just coming to Schubert, you will have to spend some time learning his ways, or at least I did. Worth every bit of the effort. :)

8)

Please explain. He still writes in 4 mvmts. He still uses key sigs. His music still sounds like 19th cent. composer music. He does sound "smoother" than Haydn/Mozart, and less "something" than LvB, but I can't put my finger on it. Maybe it's that "rambling" thing I'm hearing? Who "sounds" most like him, pre 1899? post 1899?

My mom says it's "quite lovely, really."

What are his trademarks? I'm noticing a sense of wallowing in luxurious beauty just for the sake of it. The slight lingering in the minor key reminds me of Shosty? Is this pre-Wagner Wagner?

I'll admit these two SQs were a strange choice for the ABQ (though they went on (EMI) to record more later).

Quote from: snyprrr on May 30, 2009, 05:15:42 PM
Please explain. He still writes in 4 mvmts. He still uses key sigs. His music still sounds like 19th cent. composer music. He does sound "smoother" than Haydn/Mozart, and less "something" than LvB, but I can't put my finger on it. Maybe it's that "rambling" thing I'm hearing? Who "sounds" most like him, pre 1899? post 1899?

My mom says it's "quite lovely, really."

What are his trademarks? I'm noticing a sense of wallowing in luxurious beauty just for the sake of it. The slight lingering in the minor key reminds me of Shosty? Is this pre-Wagner Wagner?

I'll admit these two SQs were a strange choice for the ABQ (though they went on (EMI) to record more later).

Wow, lots of questions there, and I'm far from knowledgeable about theory.

Yes, he didn't reject the basics of form, he isn't nearly THAT radical :o :o  But what I hear the most of is getting away from the basic tonal center which was the hallmark of classical style. Like, his modulations aren't to a key you would expect them to be in sonata form. This sense of expectation of knowing where the key is going is of primary importance in the classical era. But Schubert sneaks off to someplace entirely different, although he may very well end up right where he is supposed to be, how he got there can be a surprise. in his late works, Beethoven uses similar methods, but Haydn and Mozart, although they were by no means "standard" in their tonal structure, would not have treated tonality that way because it was against what they were trying to do.

It would be to no advantage to try and list all the composers in the Romantic era that treated tonality like that, they pretty much all did. Schumann would be a good example. But it all leads inexorably to Wagner and Mahler. Someone else will have to take over trying to explain Wagner's use of tonality because I don't understand it myself. :-\

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra / Fischer - Hob 01 019 Symphony in D 1st mvmt - Allegro molto

Quote from: snyprrr on May 30, 2009, 05:15:42 PM
Please explain. He still writes in 4 mvmts. He still uses key sigs. His music still sounds like 19th cent. composer music. He does sound "smoother" than Haydn/Mozart, and less "something" than LvB, but I can't put my finger on it. Maybe it's that "rambling" thing I'm hearing? Who "sounds" most like him, pre 1899? post 1899?

What do you want, a road map?

Spend some time with Schubert and all these topical issues like "4 movements" and such melt away.

Outwardly there might be similarities to the 'classical' idiom but nothing in Schubert looks backward to classicism. If you hear it any different you're simply not listening.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 30, 2009, 11:07:37 AM
If you are just coming to Schubert, you will have to spend some time learning his ways, or at least I did. Worth every bit of the effort. :)

8)

Indeed, it took me a long time to "get" Schubert, but when it finally clicked it was wonderful!

You just need to wait for the right time, and then you'll be fine with Schubert.

Quote from: Herman on May 31, 2009, 10:15:03 AM
You just need to wait for the right time, and then you'll be fine with Schubert.

The paths to Schubert are many, strange and varied.

But I may be the only person who came back to Schubert as a result of listening to a lot of Morton Feldman.

Quote from: edward on May 31, 2009, 02:46:33 PM
The paths to Schubert are many, strange and varied.

But I may be the only person who came back to Schubert as a result of listening to a lot of Morton Feldman.

This I can understand!

Thanks to Gurn also, and all.

Quote from: edward on May 31, 2009, 02:46:33 PM
The paths to Schubert are many, strange and varied.

But I may be the only person who came back to Schubert as a result of listening to a lot of Morton Feldman.

My path is nothing so singular as yours.  I was introduced to him via a band transcription of the first movement of the Unfinished.

My winding path through the thickets of Schubert:  high school orchestra, Unfinished Symphony; also high school, playing the clarinet obligato for Shepherd on the Rock; much later, The Great Symphony and the clarinet obligato part for his Salve Regina; now looking forward to working on the Octet!  I've had opportunities to hear many of the songs performed--it just makes me wish I could sing!  This may be a horribly naive point of view, by my feeling about Schubert has always been, what's not to love?

I spent the graveyard shift on amazon looking up Schubert SQs.

One issue stood out. The Vienna Konzerthaus Quartet (yes, culled from the orch.) recorded the complete SQs in the mid-fifties, and the reviewer made sure to mention all the great conductors informing the orch., and the reviewer thought that these players hit Schubert dead on. Anyone know this?

Melos' (DG) complete had some criticism for occasionally scratchy high violin sound, but otherwise got great reviews.

Auryn/CPO got ok reviews.

Kodaly/Naxos got ok reviews.

The Vienna Qrt./Camerata had one good review.

Leipziger/MDG looks like the cadillac, but I wonder if the Konzerthaus Qrt. shines beyond them.

btw- I HAVE to comment. Seems everyone thinks I'm not ready for Schubert, but as William Shatner sang, "I'm ready to go anywhere...where...ere...ere"! I think you're all being unfair. I just was reminded that Schubert's last in G, D887, is 50mins long, and, I AM SURE, that if I would have heard this or the Quintet in C first, my initial post would have been a lot different.

You'd all agree D887 is in a different league than "Rosamunde", or the g-minor, no? Or practically anything else, I'm sure.

The snotty little upstart in me takes umbrage that I have to "get" Schubert. Surely, had I listened to a 50min, endlessly beautiful SQ of "heavenly length", I would have got it. And yes, if he wrote it in 3 days, I would have got that. And, yes, I get that Schubert doesn't "look back." I just get pingy when it is suggested that a composer's "secrets" have eluded me. I just shouldn't have posted until I'd heard D887, that's all, and no one can hold my empty wallet against me, can they? I call em as I hear em, and these two SQs were not my choice, they were ABQ's. Certainly no one here would pick these two over D887?

I've noticed many reviewers preferred early or late Schubert to middle Schubert, and maybe that's why I had an "uh...ok" reaction to D173 in g-minor. It's "just another" early 18th cent./20min. SQ, whereas D887 is definitely not. I'm a masterpiece junkie, and, as such, am intolerable. I only want the richest cream. ok, enough of my petulance.

Any recommends for D887? I'm drawn to the ABQ/EMI (1997) because of the glowing reviews. What's the loooongest version? (not that that is a consideration)

Again, thanks to all, and please don't quote my harshest language, or be offended. I pick things up pretty quick.

Quote from: snyprrr on June 01, 2009, 10:52:52 AM
You'd all agree D887 is in a different league than "Rosamunde", or the g-minor, no? Or practically anything else, I'm sure.

No I disagree. The three last quartets are great, and don't bite each other.

Quote from: Herman on June 01, 2009, 12:34:29 PM
No I disagree. The three last quartets are great, and don't bite each other.

Truly. The a minor is MY favorite of the 3. :)

8)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 01, 2009, 12:51:40 PM
Truly. The a minor is MY favorite of the 3. :)

8)

Ditto, Gurnmeister!  8)

I was playing the Rosamunde while I was writing earlier today, when my mum came by and said, "Oh, I've heard this before," I suppose during the quotation of song, which made me just wonder, Was it in a film? This tickled me.

So I was listening to Rosa, and yea, it gets better each time, no doubt. There are dramatic moments, yet their is a leisurely gait and perfectly judged tone of character. Oh, and yes, me mum likes it too!

But why isn't the invention of the 50min. SQ in three days cause for  :-*? I don't have an LvB timings handy. I mean, it didn't hit me until I was scrolling down the page, whoa, the timing. Where did this symphony come from? "Heavenly length?"

Franz Schubert (1797-1828)
Lieder w Orch
'An Sylvia'
D891

http://www.mediafire.com/?gym1gd1ym5c

:)

D 887 gets me. Rosamunde and Maiden don't, but they are both good tries.

Quote from: robnewman on June 02, 2009, 01:57:49 AM
Franz Schubert (1797-1828)
Lieder w Orch
'An Sylvia'
D891

Perhaps it should be mentioned that this "Lieder w Orch" is (ironically) no authentic Schubert, who, obviously, wrote this as a song for voice and piano.

Yes Herman,

For an awful moment I thought you were going to tell us how nice it is !!  :)

This 'Gesang' (whose manuscript is today in the Stadbibliothek in Vienna) was published early in 1828, the year of Schubert's death, as No. 4 of four songs without opus number and was later reissued as Op. 106, dedicated to Frau Marie Pachler. Since we are concerned with authenticity No. 4 of Op. 106 was actually originally reserved for Schubert's Ballade D.923 and this song was later substituted for it. You will be interested to know the title 'An Sylvia' is itself spurious (lacking authenticity, that is) and was added later.

(But none of this stops our authentic enjoyment of this arrangement, of course !)  :)

For Schubert's Piano Sonatas, what would be the general recommendation.....only the late ones, or all of them?  And if just the last ones, just the last three, or last *insert number*?

Quote from: ChamberNut on June 03, 2009, 04:01:43 PM
For Schubert's Piano Sonatas, what would be the general recommendation.....only the late ones, or all of them?  And if just the last ones, just the last three, or last *insert number*?

General recommendation? Maybe Kempff or Brendel or Schnabel or Richter or Lupu or Klien.

My recommendation? Richter, starting with this:

(http://images.barnesandnoble.com/images/13680000/13685979.JPG)

Quote from: George on June 03, 2009, 04:13:55 PM
General recommendation? Maybe Kempff or Brendel or Schnabel or Richter or Lupu or Klien.

My recommendation? Richter, starting with this:

(http://images.barnesandnoble.com/images/13680000/13685979.JPG)

Merci bien, mon jumeau!  8)

Quote from: ChamberNut on June 03, 2009, 04:15:34 PM
Merci bien, mon jumeau!  8)

Your welcome. You have a PM too.  :)

Of all composers before the 20th century, I've had the toughest time with Schubert.  His symphonies, anyway.  Maybe it's that I cannot bear how none other than the Eighth is the Unfinished (though I don't disregard other symphonies of, e.g., Mozart or Beethoven just because they are not the K.550 or the Opus 125).  Maybe I still cannot shake the grudge I have with the Great because of tedium previously endured.  There's one earlier Schubert symphony which I like just fine, in addition to the sublime B Minor . . . but . . . one of these days, I have to try his cycle again.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 22, 2009, 06:48:53 AM
Of all composers before the 20th century, I've had the toughest time with Schubert.  His symphonies, anyway. 

Me too, Karl. I actually have found much of his output tough to connect with. The Impromptus appealed to me immediately and after some time the Sonatas, but the Symphonies and String Quartets remain a challenge for me.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 22, 2009, 06:48:53 AM
Of all composers before the 20th century, I've had the toughest time with Schubert.  His symphonies, anyway.  Maybe it's that I cannot bear how none other than the Eighth is the Unfinished (though I don't disregard other symphonies of, e.g., Mozart or Beethoven just because they are not the K.550 or the Opus 125).  Maybe I still cannot shake the grudge I have with the Great because of tedium previously endured.  There's one earlier Schubert symphony which I like just fine, in addition to the sublime B Minor . . . but . . . one of these days, I have to try his cycle again.

Quote from: George on July 22, 2009, 07:01:22 AM
Me too, Karl. I actually have found much of his output tough to connect with. The Impromptus appealed to me immediately and after some time the Sonatas, but the Symphonies and String Quartets remain a challenge for me.

Little trouble for me appreciating - adoring! - Schubert. :) Been a lifelong fan from the beginning.

But to me Schubert lives or dies depending on whether a performer feels Schubert is a progressive or retro (or perhaps even 'transitional'). Progressive and the true meaning of Schubert opens up to me; retro (his 'classical prettiness') and Schubert slips back into the shade.

It's a formula that's worked well for me over the years and may aid others in coming to terms with Schubert. (I find Schubert's progressiveness more pronounced in his middle- to late-period works, BTW).

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on July 22, 2009, 08:02:46 AM
Little trouble for me appreciating - adoring! - Schubert. :) Been a lifelong fan from the beginning.

But to me Schubert lives or dies depending on whether a performer feels Schubert is a progressive or retro (or perhaps even 'transitional'). Progressive and the true meaning of Schubert opens up to me; retro (his 'classical prettiness') and Schubert slips back into the shade.

It's a formula that's worked well for me over the years and may aid others in coming to terms with Schubert. (I find Schubert's progressiveness more pronounced in his middle- to late-period works, BTW).

Thanks for your comment, neighbor!

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 22, 2009, 06:48:53 AM
Of all composers before the 20th century, I've had the toughest time with Schubert.  His symphonies, anyway.  Maybe it's that I cannot bear how none other than the Eighth is the Unfinished (though I don't disregard other symphonies of, e.g., Mozart or Beethoven just because they are not the K.550 or the Opus 125). 

How about the piano sonatas, the piano trios, the sublime string quintet, and the relatively unknown string quartets (except for the "Death and the Maiden") without even going into the vocal music? This year in class we went a bit deeper into the 8th and 9th symphonies which increased my admiration for him. This composer was surely not superficial, had one of the finest minds in music ever. And his detail was uncanny, even the smallest of rests or agogic marks are significant.

Though Schubert can be longwinded at times, he never just writes boring filler to fill up the proportions of form as what sometimes is found in Beethoven's Sonatas.

ZB

Quote from: George on July 22, 2009, 07:01:22 AM
Me too, Karl. I actually have found much of his output tough to connect with. The Impromptus appealed to me immediately and after some time the Sonatas, but the Symphonies and String Quartets remain a challenge for me.

You should check out the Harnoncourt's Schubert Symphonies.  I bought the set a few months ago and the performance is superb ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/418Y5RBRAML._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Quote from: Coopmv on July 22, 2009, 05:15:20 PM
You should check out the Harnoncourt's Schubert Symphonies.  I bought the set a few months ago and the performance is superb ...

Them's the ones! The only Schubert symphony set I've ever had and the only one I've ever wanted. Every challenger I audition pales in comparison, and moreover, Harnoncourt's scholarship in creating a new edition of the scores makes these performances sound very different from any other. More than most revisions by the "HIP" crowd, the historical inquiries into Schubert's original scores, versus the heavily tweaked published versions, has resulted in what amounts to a whole new set of symphonies.

The only blot on the set is the totally nonsensical program note by Peter Haertling, who claims that the symphonies are each chapters in a great musical novel, or somesuch garbage.

Quote from: Coopmv on July 22, 2009, 05:15:20 PM
You should check out the Harnoncourt's Schubert Symphonies.  I bought the set a few months ago and the performance is superb ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/418Y5RBRAML._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I get the feeling that if I don't, Harnoncourt will kick my ass.  ;D

Seriously, I've heard good things, but I would more likely try Wand.

Quote from: Brian on July 22, 2009, 05:19:55 PM
Them's the ones! The only Schubert symphony set I've ever had and the only one I've ever wanted. Every challenger I audition pales in comparison, and moreover, Harnoncourt's scholarship in creating a new edition of the scores makes these performances sound very different from any other. More than most revisions by the "HIP" crowd, the historical inquiries into Schubert's original scores, versus the heavily tweaked published versions, has resulted in what amounts to a whole new set of symphonies.

The only blot on the set is the totally nonsensical program note by Peter Haertling, who claims that the symphonies are each chapters in a great musical novel, or somesuch garbage.

My first exposure to Harnoncourt's Schubert was from this CD I bought some 20 years ago ...

Quote from: George on July 22, 2009, 05:20:19 PM
I get the feeling that if I don't, Harnoncourt will kick my ass.  ;D

Seriously, I've heard good things, but I would more likely try Wand.

Wand is good, but much like everyone else's (maybe a bit better, but you know what I mean). Harnoncourt's is rather more unique. What Brian said. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Christopher Hogwood - K 494 Rondo in F for Keyboard

Quote from: Brian on July 22, 2009, 05:19:55 PMMore than most revisions by the "HIP" crowd, the historical inquiries into Schubert's original scores, versus the heavily tweaked published versions, has resulted in what amounts to a whole new set of symphonies.

To give an idea, there are 1.5 pages of the booklet given over to listing major, audible changes in the performing editions; for example, in the fourth symphony a bar has been added to the second movement and eight bars have been added to the first, and the finale opens with solo bassoon rather than two bassoons and full cello section; in many places later editors of Schubert's work revised sudden dynamic changes (ie from piano to fortissimo) to make them more gradual and more "proper," but Harnoncourt restores them to the original, rather jarring (dare I say thrilling?) style...

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 22, 2009, 05:26:03 PM
Wand is good, but much like everyone else's (maybe a bit better, but you know what I mean). Harnoncourt's is rather more unique. What Brian said. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Christopher Hogwood - K 494 Rondo in F for Keyboard

I have the Schubert Symphonies sets by Karajan, Colin Davis, Marriner and Harnoncourt.  I do think the Harnoncourt's set is probably the best ...

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on July 22, 2009, 08:02:46 AM
But to me Schubert lives or dies depending on whether a performer feels Schubert is a progressive or retro (or perhaps even 'transitional'). Progressive and the true meaning of Schubert opens up to me; retro (his 'classical prettiness') and Schubert slips back into the shade.

It's a formula that's worked well for me over the years and may aid others in coming to terms with Schubert. (I find Schubert's progressiveness more pronounced in his middle- to late-period works, BTW).

Which recordings of the Symphonies and Quartets fall into the progressive category, in your opinion? I ask because we share a love of Richter's Schubert, so I expect there should be some consistency in our enjoyment of performances of other works.  :)

Quote from: George on July 23, 2009, 04:53:46 AM
Which recordings of the Symphonies and Quartets fall into the progressive category, in your opinion? I ask because we share a love of Richter's Schubert, so I expect there should be some consistency in our enjoyment of performances of other works.  :)

I don't find any of the early symphonies rising to the peaks of 'progressiveness', so to be honest I haven't really explored them much (I'm sure they don't deserve it :().

The ninth symphony however is a fabulous work and Bernstein's Concertgebouw recording on DG has long been my favorite.

But when I think of 'progressive' I tend to think more of Schubert's chamber music than anything. His late string quartets, piano trios, middle-to-late piano sonatas, and string quintet are simply marvels of creativity.

'Progressive' to me means Schubert without smoothing over the musical lines. Kinda like Richter, I suppose. Letting the invention shine while downplaying the outward classicism. A sort of "de-prettified" Schubert I guess I'd call it. But never ugly. Just transparent.

For the late string quartets my favorite pair of discs comes from the Takacs quartet on Decca. The later Hyperion disc is good, too, but I'm still fonder of the grittier attack of the earlier Takacs.

In the piano trios I really enjoy the second (digital) Beaux Arts set. Very wide dynamics with plenty of strength. The Golub, Kaplan, Carr Trio on Arabesque is a quality achievement, too.

The piano sonatas you already know my favorite. ;) He's tops for me.

In the string quintet, well, the whole thing is progressive right from the start ;D but I enjoy most the Quatuor Sine Nomine on Claves. I think you'd really like this one, George - such a rich, husky tone they produce. Yet agile. If I had to I'd say get this one first (look to the European Amazons, however, here's a link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/String-Quintets-Overture-Swiss-Schubert/dp/B00004XORF/ref=pd_rhf_p_t_1)). After that there's the Hagen and the Hollywood.


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411KqCf-XVL.jpg)  (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/513DF23RBFL.jpg)   

Thanks very much, Don!  :)

Well I disagree with popular opinion that you just have to find the right performances, it's not the performances that are the problem.  His symphonies are fun to listen to but are not where the core of Schubert's genius lies.

Karl, I agree with ZB in order of great to very good, listen to: lieder, solo piano music, masses, piano trios, string quintet, string quartets.

My favorite Schubert (whom I like second after Mahler):

Solo piano music, especially the last three sonatas. My favorites, maybe because they are my imprint versions, are from Brendel's first set on Philips.

Piano Trios, especially by the Beaux Arts Trio. I also liked whatever version of op. 100 was used in Barry Lyndon. There was also a version I liked in the late 1980s, on Harmonia Mundi.

The late String Quartets. I've never heard versions I don't like. Currently, I listen to the Takacs on CD, and the Melos on LP.

The String Quintet. I like the Rostopovich/Melos on CD; Amadeus on LP

And I have a three-CD set of the three main song cycles (Die Schone Mullerin, Schwanengesang, Winterreise) by Andras Schiff and Peter Schreier that I play obsessively at times. It usually kicks off as fall turns into winter, though I didn't listen at all for a few years.

I haven't been listening as much to classical as I sometimes do, because I bought, and am using, a new turntable, and I find it hard to listen to many classical LPs because of surface noise.

I've recently been listening to Schubert's Rosamunde music, thanks to Australian Decca Eloquence. First, five selections by Ansermet were the highlight of a two-disc set with various Mendelssohn works. One of these was the previously unreleased Entracte I. These were wonderfully played and sounding, prompting me to look at finding the complete work. (I already had Karajan's EMI recordings, but they are ruled out due to unhelpful sound.)

First, I found Munchinger's well-known set, but was disappointed: he takes the Entractes too slowly for my taste, and the Ballets much too fast. Then I picked up a five-disc box which included Rosamunde conducted by Haitink (1966, I believe). The sound was surprisingly harsh, but reducing the treble helped a lot. I found him much more comfortable in this music than Munchinger, but have not yet compared him directly with Ansermet, who I suspect remains superior.

The thing is that not all the Rosamunde music is first-rate Schubert, and Ansermet plays all but one of the most substantial orchestral numbers. So, in the end, I think Ansermet may do for everyday listening.

Helmchen's Trout. Interview/Review & WETA's CD Pick of the Week:

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1854 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1854)

Time to start digging into this composer more.  He was 1 of 2 that I listed as a composer I would not mind adding 20 cds to my shelf.  With each new purchase I will bump this thread. $:)

Obscure ones are most welcome as are pieces that are not usually highlighted.  Thanks!

Here are 3 that go everywhere with me, in my MP3 player... :

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516oQNu7OTL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

L'Archibudelli, a variety of chamber pieces

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4173Pqw4gyL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

La Gaia Scienza Piano Trios +

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5160aIv0DUL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

L'Archibudelli & Mozzafiato - The Octet for Winds and Strings, one of my favorite Schubert pieces.

So if you take these along with the 135 recommendations you're gonna get for Richter's last 3 sonatas, then you'll have some nice Schubert to listen to. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss - Hob 02 02 Divertimento in G for Strings 6th mvmt - Finale: Presto

Quote from: Bogey on April 24, 2010, 11:52:56 AM
Time to start digging into this composer more.  He was 1 of 2 that I listed as a composer I would not mind adding 20 cds to my shelf.  With each new purchase I will bump this thread. $:)

Then may I suggest 5 or so Schubert CDs to have? [With link to review where available]
!!!!
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00068VR44.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg)
F. Schubert, Piano Works for Four Hands, M. J. Pires and R. Castro (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00068VR44/goodmusicguide-20)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/03/schubert-for-two.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/03/schubert-for-two.html)

(http://)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Z7GJ19EGL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Schubert, Orchestrated Songs (Webern et al.),
von Otter, Quasthoff / Abbado / Ch.O.of Europe (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008MLUR/goodmusicguide-20)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/10/munich-chamber-orchestra-mko-is-local.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/10/munich-chamber-orchestra-mko-is-local.html)

!!!
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0001TSWO6.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg)
F. Schubert, Symphony No. 9, G. Wand (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001TSWO6/goodmusicguide-20)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001TSWO6/nectarandambr-20 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001TSWO6/nectarandambr-20)

!!!!
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000063BYT.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg)
My far-and-away favorite Schubert 5th!
G.Wand, NDR SO (live) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000063BYT/goodmusicguide-20)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/03/this-man-should-have-known-suffering.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/03/this-man-should-have-known-suffering.html)

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000BOWT4K.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg)
F. Schubert, Octet, Mullova Ensemble (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000BOWT4K/goodmusicguide-20)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/02/dip-your-ears-no-54.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/02/dip-your-ears-no-54.html)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41gHvVWB4oL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Schubert, Death & the Maiden, Jerusalem Quartet (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0012Y1I4U/goodmusicguide-20)

!
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0001Z2RSW.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg)
F. Schubert, Late String Quartets & String Quintet, The Lindsays (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001Z2RSW/goodmusicguide-20)

Above Trout.
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/11/dip-your-ears-no-20.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/11/dip-your-ears-no-20.html)

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000H0MGZU.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg)
Arpeggione, Queyras / Tharaud (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000H0MGZU/goodmusicguide-20)

D946 -- The Drei Klavierstücke  -- Arrau 1950s on EMI
D 784/Op. 143  -- a sonata -- Igor Zhukov
Moments Musicaux -- the live one from Gilels on Orfeo
D960 -- another sonata (but you knew that) -- Maria Yudina

Oops that's 4

Anyway, they are some I have enjoyed a lot recently. The Zhukov and Arrau and Gilels have been favourites for ages. the Yudina is a new discovery and I think it's maybe the most fascinating Schubert recording I know. It certainly doesn't sound like any other D960 I know -- with strange tempo fluctuations and unique voice leading.

It certainly is giving me a lot of pleasure right now. In all four movements. Maybe the only D960 which makes me really want to listen to the whole thing.

The twofer of the Beaux Arts Trio playing the Piano Trios,
That cd of Rostropovich and and the Melos Quartet playing the String Quintet

:)

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/4e/86/5bbc810ae7a00f326cac8110.L.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41rQG1RKb%2BL._SS500_.jpg)

And since you didn't say they had to be cds only, I counted those as two so I can add the set that gets just as much play time, the late SQs performed by the Melos Q :)

(http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cl200/l265/l265137o30l.jpg)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2010, 12:09:38 PM


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5160aIv0DUL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

L'Archibudelli & Mozzafiato - The Octet for Winds and Strings, one of my favorite Schubert pieces.

Just ordered this one.  It is OOP at this time and more importantly I cannot resist "chamber wind" music.  Thanks, Gurn.  Keep the recs coming and I will test drive them out.  Tax refund just came through, so may have to induldge a bit here. ;D

Quote from: DavidW on April 24, 2010, 12:44:12 PM
The twofer of the Beaux Arts Trio playing the Piano Trios,
That cd of Rostropovich and and the Melos Quartet playing the String Quintet

:)

Similarly Dave.

I chose that Beaux Arts Trio twofer on Philips.

I chose Rostropovich on the cello, but with the Emerson SQ on DG for the String Quintet (this would likely be a desert island disc 1 of 3 of any composer)

3rd choice - Between Brendel's twofer of the Impromptus and Moments Musicaux on Philips and Melos Qt. recordings of the string quartets.

Quote from: Brahmsian on April 24, 2010, 01:23:01 PM
Similarly Dave.

I chose that Beaux Arts Trio twofer on Philips.

I chose Rostropovich on the cello, but with the Emerson SQ on DG for the String Quintet (this would likely be a desert island disc 1 of 3 of any composer)

3rd choice - Between Brendel's twofer of the Impromptus and Moments Musicaux on Philips and Melos Qt. recordings of the string quartets.

So, this might be the way to go:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5107DRSKCML._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

3 discs for $21.

I will have to look first at how much repeat pf the compositions I have on the shelf.

Quote from: Brahmsian on April 24, 2010, 01:23:01 PM
Similarly Dave.

I chose that Beaux Arts Trio twofer on Philips.

I chose Rostropovich on the cello, but with the Emerson SQ on DG for the String Quintet (this would likely be a desert island disc 1 of 3 of any composer)

3rd choice - Between Brendel's twofer of the Impromptus and Moments Musicaux on Philips and Melos Qt. recordings of the string quartets.

Those all seem to be consensus winners, Ray. I had the 3 that David chose, except like you, my Rostro/5tet is also with the Emersons. All around good music making. :)

Quote from: Bogey on April 24, 2010, 01:11:16 PM
Just ordered this one.  It is OOP at this time and more importantly I cannot resist "chamber wind" music.  Thanks, Gurn.  Keep the recs coming and I will test drive them out.  Tax refund just came through, so may have to indulge a bit here. ;D

You won't regret that choice, it's a very well done version of a great piece of music. Just as an aside ab out the Gaia Scienza disks, they have about the best recorded sound going. W & W have some damn fine recording engineers!  :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood - Hob 01 037 Symphony in C 4th mvmt - Presto

3 out the 5 pieces I have for the three disc set I just mentioned.  I may put that one on a wait list until I have built up my library of Franz a bit.

This is the one I have, Bill; I didn't know about the 3-fer:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VU-r9VtSL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Same one, yours is probably a better buy. :)

8)
----------------
Now playing:
La Petite Bande / Sigiswald Kuijken - Hob 02 20 Divertimento in F 1st mvmt - Allegro molto

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Schubert – The Last Four Quartets/ including Death and the Maiden, Rosamunde, Quartettsatz
Quartetto Italiano
2 CDs
Philips

Over the years I have bought another versions, even HIP, but never the impact has been the same; especially that devastating second movement of the "Death and the Maiden".

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Schubert – Piano Trios/ Notturno/ Arpeggione Sonata
Schiff/Shiokawa/Perényi
2 CDs
Teldec

My favorite version was taken by David; therefore, I have taken my second favorite. Anyway, my favorite Arpeggione Sonata is Rostropovich/Britten:

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Schubert – Lieder
Gundula Janowitz/Irwin Cage
2 CDs
Deutsche Gramophon

Listened to a zillion of times when I was young.

:)

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(http://apps.music.wisc.edu/cdstore/images/481Kolisch%20Qtet%20-%20Schubert.jpg)

I'll cheat:

Top3 instrumental

Sonata D960 - Haskil

Moments Musicaux - Gilels

Fantasie in F minor  Perahia/Lupu

Top 3 Chamber

Piano Quintet in C major - Hollwood SQ

Piano Trios - BAT

Arpeggione Sonata - Rostropovich/Britten

Top 3 Orchestral:

8th Symphony - Sinopli/Philharmonia

9th Symphony - Abbado COE

5thy Symphony - Walter/Col SO

Bill - coming in late to this thread, but just wanted to join!  :D

Most of the ones that I would have listed are already in previous posts, e.g. BAT in Piano Trios & Emersons for String Quartets; the Octet is a must (plenty of good recordings); if interested in solo piano, I own two complete sets, one w/ Uchida and the other w/ Paul Badura-Skoda (3 vols. of 3 discs each) on fortepiano.

Also have some Violin & Keyboard discs that may be of interest - Dave  :)

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Quote from: Holden on April 24, 2010, 02:18:44 PM
I'll cheat:

Top3 instrumental

Sonata D960 - Haskil

Moments Musicaux - Gilels

Fantasie in F minor  Perahia/Lupu

Top 3 Chamber

Piano Quintet in C major - Hollwood SQ

Piano Trios - BAT

Arpeggione Sonata - Rostropovich/Britten

'Trout'-Schnabel

Top 3 Orchestral:

8th Symphony - Sinopli/Philharmonia

9th Symphony - Abbado COE

5thy Symphony - Walter/Col

I added one to your list, Holden.  Are you in agreement? ;D

D 959 - Sokolov (bootleg) or Brendel (live)

D 894 Richter - The Master Series

Impromptus - Marie Joao Pires

D 960 Richter - Praga - OOP (so it doesn't count)  0:)

Quote from: Bogey on April 24, 2010, 02:47:19 PM
I added one to your list, Holden.  Are you in agreement? ;D

Yes, how could I forget! The Schnabel/Pro Arte "Trout" is a gem along with his sonatas.

Quote from: George on April 24, 2010, 06:54:04 PM
D 960 Richter - Praga - OOP (so it doesn't count)  0:)

Oh yes, that is indeed great!!! :)  For any list. 0:)

This Elly Ameling recording originally on Harmonia Mundi, re-issued on Victrola, might be on CD
1. Der Hirt auf dem Felsen, Op. 129, D. 965
2. Seligkeit, D. 433
3. Gretchen am Spinnrade, Op. 2, D. 118:
4. Du liebst mich nicht, Op. 59/1, D. 756
5. Heimliches Lieben, Op. 6/1, D. 922
6. Im Frühling, D. 882
7. Die Vögel, D. 691
8. Der Jüngling an der Quelle, D. 300
9. Der Musensohn, Op. 92/1, D. 764

Personnel: Elly Ameling (vocals); Jorg Demus (fortepiano); Hans Deinzer (clarinet on "Der Hirt auf dem Felsen")

Piano 4-hands  Fantasia op.103/D.940    ------   bliss!

Quote from: Holden on April 24, 2010, 02:18:44 PM
Piano Quintet in C major - Hollwood SQ

I'm nitpicking, but of course, such work does not exist. Just in case someone starts searching for a recording of a Piano Quintet, Holden meant the String Quintet.

Despite him being regarded by many as the greatest ever composer of songs his vocal music gains a mere two mentions so far. I guess not unexpected on this site which seems mainly inhabited by people with a deaf ear for the voice.

Symphony Number 5, the freshness and lightness of Harnoncourt on Teldec.

Piano duos including the Grand Duo, Benjamin Britten and Richter live on Decca. Like two cooperating but competing virtuosi spurring one another on to heights of disciplined excitement.

Then either of the following vocal discs:

Lieder on CFP, Margaret Price in early bloom. This includes The Shepherd on the Rock where the Clarinet part is played by Jack Brymer. Joy, sadness and beauty, all human life laid out.

Or

A very different place in every way: Winterreise sung by Brigitte Fassbaender and abetted in her journey into dark madness by Aribert Reimann. This disc is disturbing and memorable. EMI.

Mike

Quote from: matti on April 25, 2010, 12:23:00 AM
I'm nitpicking, but of course, such work does not exist. Just in case someone starts searching for a recording of a Piano Quintet, Holden meant the String Quintet.

Yes, I did indeed. I was not even awake enough to spell Hollywood correctly.

Quote from: knight on April 25, 2010, 01:52:46 AM
Despite him being regarded by many as the greatest ever composer of songs his vocal music gains a mere two mentions so far. I guess not unexpected on this site which seems mainly inhabited by people with a deaf ear for the voice.

Nacht und Traume with FiDi. There's one from 1952 on EMI's Schubert Lieder on Record
Aksel Schiotz's Schöne Müllerin
There is a CD of Schubert Lieder from Margaret Price which I love, from the Wigmore Hall.

Hotter is a favouroite Schubertian.  So is Gerhard Huesch.

Quote from: knight on April 25, 2010, 01:52:46 AM
A very different place in every way: Winterreise sung by Brigitte Fassbaender and abetted in her journey into dark madness by Aribert Reimann. This disc is disturbing and memorable. EMI.

I like her normally -- but not in this. I get tired of her voice in that recording.

If I want to hear Winterreise I tend to choose a very early Fischer Dieskau recording (one from the 40s), made in the brief period when he had a beautiful timbre. Or may be Schreier/Richter. Or -- very differently, the one Jon Vickers made with Geoffrey Parsons.

I can understand why you say that about Fassbaender. The voice had loosened and become very vibrant. It is not an experience for every day, but it certainly is an experience.

How is Vickers? Is he in good voice? He could be wilful and when older, his voice was not suited to the smaller scale material. I assume this is a recording dating back some time?

Mike

Quote from: knight on April 25, 2010, 04:53:43 AM
I can understand why you say that about Fassbaender. The voice had loosened and become very vibrant. It is not an experience for every day, but it certainly is an experience.

How is Vickers? Is he in good voice? He could be wilful and when older, his voice was not suited to the smaller scale material. I assume this is a recording dating back some time?

Mike

Vickers is very good in that recording with Parsons. Operatic but nuanced. I'll PM you a link to it.

He made a second recording of it with another pianist which isn't very good at all!

Of recent recordings I like Quasthoff's Winterreise and Güra's Die Schöne Müllerin. I also like Prégardien's Schwanengesang and Winterreise, with Staier. The latter's recording of the late sonatas is great if you can find it.

Quote from: Clever Hans on April 25, 2010, 08:10:43 AM
I also like Prégardien's Schwanengesang and Winterreise, with Staier.

Enthusiastically second Pregardien's Winterreise. Goerne's Hyperion Winterreise is awesome, too.

Grabbed this from the used bin on the way home:

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Yo, David!


Also snagged these two cds while I was there.  I have a couple of Haydn Quartet cds by this ensemble and really enjoyed them, so thought I would take a chance with these two.  I believe you are familiar with their work, Gurn. 8)


Trout D667 and String Quartet No. 12 in C minor ("Quartettsatz"), D. 703 1
Caspar Da Salo Quartet
Pilz Label (West Germany)
1989

Death & The Maiden - String Quartet No 14 D810
Caspar Da Salo Quartet
Pilz Label (West Germany)
1989

This disc also has the 8th Symphony under Nanut and The Radio Symphony Orchestra Ljubljana

After talking to George tonight I am putting together a little Schubert package that should give my library a boost.   ;D

Nice find Bill, that's a heck of a store you have there. :)

Tell me what you think when you have the chance to give it a listen. :)

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Talk about lightning shipping! :o  Now playing and absolutely loving it!  Thanks again, Gurn.

Hey, Mike or Gurn, any possibility of merging this with the Schubert thread?  Thanks!

Your wish is our command.

Mike

Quote from: Bogey on April 28, 2010, 08:37:07 PM
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Talk about lightning shipping! :o  Now playing and absolutely loving it!  Thanks again, Gurn.

You're welcome, Bill. I thought you would like that one, it has just that bit of a sharp edge to the winds that makes them more than hold their own, and of course the strings are in great hands too. I also have (in PI form) the Hausmusik London recording. A bit smoother perhaps, which is a good thing in modern instruments, but not what I was looking for. :)

8)

(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/bisbissacd1656.jpg)

I am almost ready to buy this purely on the strength of Dausgaard's great Beethoven symphony set, anyone have this hybrid disc of symphonies 8, 9...........

As with other releases in this BIS label set uses smaller orchestra than normal with Swedish Chamber Orch.....

Quote from: knight on April 28, 2010, 09:10:40 PM
Your wish is our command.

Mike

Thanks, Mike!

Bill, it seems the "favourite three recordings" party is already over? :D Here are mine anyway:

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I decided to leave out recommendations for the Lieder - they would merit a seperate "favourite three". And then there are the masses by Bruno Weil, Bill this is impossible! :o 0:)

BTW the octet by the Mozzafiato - wholeheartedly seconded! :)

Q

Schubert is a man on his way to the gallows, unable to stop telling his friends how incomparably beautiful life is -- and how simple.

Quote from: Opus106 on July 24, 2010, 10:19:23 AM
Schubert is a man on his way to the gallows, unable to stop telling his friends how incomparably beautiful life is -- and how simple.

Anner Bylsma   

Yes, I've always wondered how it must have felt, knowing as he did that he was condemned to death and yet carrying on (after a bit) as though it was nothing. It must have been a difficult 6 years... :-\

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Palmer Chamber Orchestra / Palmer Harris / Garrison / Fortunato / Guyer - Hob 28 02 Opera buffa in 2 Acts "La Cantarina" pt 04 Act I. Accompanied Recitative: Che dici

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 24, 2010, 10:30:39 AM
Yes, I've always wondered how it must have felt, knowing as he did that he was condemned to death and yet carrying on (after a bit) as though it was nothing. It must have been a difficult 6 years... :-\

8)

I can sure hear it in the music. It's one of the things I love most about Schubert. Listening to late Schubert for me is kinda like watching a Bergman film. It's beautiful, painful and unafraid to go into the dark corners of life. I always learn something about myself from the experience.

Quote from: DarkAngel on April 29, 2010, 10:23:18 AM
(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/bisbissacd1656.jpg)

I am almost ready to buy this purely on the strength of Dausgaard's great Beethoven symphony set, anyone have this hybrid disc of symphonies 8, 9...........

As with other releases in this BIS label set uses smaller orchestra than normal with Swedish Chamber Orch.....

Nothing special, unfortunately. The Ninth is somewhat interesting but the Unvollendete is utterly destroyed by his approach. He seemingly tries to emulate the (=his) Beethoven style but not to the music's benefit; nor are there any significant interpretative insights, either.

I'm really trying to dig Schubert's Piano Sonatas, but it's just not working for me. I just find them so boring.

So I'm wondering which of them should I listen to next?
And played by who?

I'm really trying to like the guy, but it's not going all that well.

Quote from: Philoctetes on August 16, 2010, 07:38:31 AM
I'm really trying to dig Schubert's Piano Sonatas, but it's just not working for me. I just find them so boring.

So I'm wondering which of them should I listen to next?
And played by who?

I'm really trying to like the guy, but it's not going all that well.

Have you tried his Impromptus and Moments Musicaux (Brendel, Philips)?

I was just listening to it yesterday, and marvelling at these wonderful short piano pieces.

Also try the Fantasy in F minor for 4 hands!

Quote from: Philoctetes on August 16, 2010, 07:38:31 AM
I'm really trying to dig Schubert's Piano Sonatas, but it's just not working for me. I just find them so boring.

So I'm wondering which of them should I listen to next?
And played by who?

I'm really trying to like the guy, but it's not going all that well.

Who's Schubert have you heard? I like Richter (Sonatas) and Pires (Impromptus)

Quote from: Brahmsian on August 16, 2010, 07:41:22 AM
Have you tried his Impromptus and Moments Musicaux (Brendel, Philips)?

I was just listening to it yesterday, and marvelling at these wonderful short piano pieces.

Also try the Fantasy in F minor for 4 hands!

I have. I enjoy his 'smaller' works, and I absolutely adore his works for two pianists.

Quote from: George on August 16, 2010, 07:58:54 AM
Who's Schubert have you heard? I like Richter (Sonatas) and Pires (Impromptus)

I can't recall them all, but Brendel, Uchida, Cooper, Pollini, Goode, Curzon... I've heard most of the 'popular' ones.

Quote from: Philoctetes on August 16, 2010, 08:08:39 AM
I have. I enjoy his 'smaller' works, and I absolutely adore his works for two pianists.

I can't recall them all, but Brendel, Uchida, Cooper, Pollini, Goode, Curzon... I've heard most of the 'popular' ones.

Perhaps the sonatas are not for you.  In which case, it won't matter who performs them or how many times you listen to them.

I have the last few sonatas by Brendel in live recordings on a 2 CD set, which is different enough from the studio recordings to warrant an independent listen.

Quote from: kishnevi on August 16, 2010, 07:58:57 PM
Perhaps the sonatas are not for you.  In which case, it won't matter who performs them or how many times you listen to them.

I have the last few sonatas by Brendel in live recordings on a 2 CD set, which is different enough from the studio recordings to warrant an independent listen.

I think this may be it. The Richter didn't do anything for me, currently I'm listening to Afanassiev. Although, I'll admit that I loved the samples that I heard of Kuerti.

I've finally figured out, that it wasn't the pianists, whom I love, and it wasn't even really the composer, whom I, in general, adore, but it was simply the piece that was boring the crap out of me.

I'm currently enjoying Pollini playing the sonatas save D.960, which one can surmise is the one that bores me.

I'll return to that piece later, though. Perhaps it will click then.

A search doesn't seem to turn up this bit of info, so I'll just ask. Someone recommended, at one time, a box set of all of Schubert's masses (PI), and I thought it was by either Hickox or Weil. I am looking to fill that gap in my collection of Schubert, and hope that I can get some recs. Nothing from the 1930's or so, please... :)

8)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 01, 2010, 04:39:05 AM
A search doesn't seem to turn up this bit of info, so I'll just ask. Someone recommended, at one time, a box set of all of Schubert's masses (PI), and I thought it was by either Hickox or Weil. I am looking to fill that gap in my collection of Schubert, and hope that I can get some recs. Nothing from the 1930's or so, please... :)

8)

You are welcome.  :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51sfMpoE9mL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Franz Schubert
Complete Masses
Bruno Weil
Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00009PBXF?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00009PBXF)

Thanks, Jens. Oddly, when I searched "weil schubert" all I got were the individual boxes, so I wasn't sure that was the one in the box set or it was some other. 'ppreciate'cha. :)

8)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 01, 2010, 05:24:24 AM
Thanks, Jens. Oddly, when I searched "weil schubert" all I got were the individual boxes, so I wasn't sure that was the one in the box set or it was some other. 'ppreciate'cha. :)

8)

Searching for classical music in systems filed and organized by people who have no &#^$&@ clue about classical music is an advanced art-form that I have mastered in my years at Tower Records.

Quote from: jlaurson on November 01, 2010, 06:30:46 AM
Searching for classical music in systems filed and organized by people who have no &#^$&@ clue about classical music is an advanced art-form that I have mastered in my years at Tower Records.

:D  Yes, Amazon does me that way fairly often. I say "they don't seem to have it" and someone comes back with "sure, it's right here"... :-\  In this case, I wasn't sure there was a Weil box set so that made it more plausible that they wouldn't have it. :)

8)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 01, 2010, 06:34:00 AM
:D  Yes, Amazon does me that way fairly often. I say "they don't seem to have it" and someone comes back with "sure, it's right here"... :-\  In this case, I wasn't sure there was a Weil box set so that made it more plausible that they wouldn't have it. :)

8)

What's really funny here is that Gurn awhile back pointed me to that Weil box set! ;D  You're going senile old man. <ducks!>

Quote from: DavidW on November 01, 2010, 06:41:51 AM
What's really funny here is that Gurn awhile back pointed me to that Weil box set! ;D  You're going senile old man. <ducks!>

I'm almost positive that was Haydn though... although my memory does seem the shortest part of me at this point in my life... :)

8)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 01, 2010, 06:54:32 AM
I'm almost positive that was Haydn though... although my memory does seem the shortest part of me at this point in my life... :)

8)

It was both. ;D  But I remember the Schubert set in particular because I couldn't find it on amazon and you impressed me with your mad search skills by giving me the link. :D

Quote from: DavidW on November 01, 2010, 06:58:20 AM
It was both. ;D  But I remember the Schubert set in particular because I couldn't find it on amazon and you impressed me with your mad search skills by giving me the link. :D

:-[  Well, I probably got it from Que, the King of Weil.... :)

8)

Death and the maiden by Murcof:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am0TeTZNw3Y

I asked this in the "Recordings You Are Considering Thread" but got no answer: Is anyone familiar with Blomstedt's San Francisco Schuubert recordings on Decca? My local used CD store has 5, 8 & 9 for dirt cheap.

Quote from: Mensch on February 09, 2011, 08:15:13 AM
I asked this in the "Recordings You Are Considering Thread" but got no answer: Is anyone familiar with Blomstedt's San Francisco Schuubert recordings on Decca? My local used CD store has 5, 8 & 9 for dirt cheap.

I saw that there too, but I have not heard it. He is a bit under-rated and did many good recordings from that time wth the SFSO. So I would take the risk myself - if it is as inexpensive as you say, it will be a good buy. Also, Amazon may have some reviews.

Quote from: Mensch on February 09, 2011, 08:15:13 AM
I asked this in the "Recordings You Are Considering Thread" but got no answer: Is anyone familiar with Blomstedt's San Francisco Schuubert recordings on Decca? My local used CD store has 5, 8 & 9 for dirt cheap.

Never heard a bad Bloomstedt SFO recording (Sibelius, Bruckner, Hindemith, Nielsen) but I've never heard that Schubert.

Quote from: ukrneal on February 09, 2011, 08:24:07 AM
I saw that there too, but I have not heard it. He is a bit under-rated and did many good recordings from that time wth the SFSO. So I would take the risk myself - if it is as inexpensive as you say, it will be a good buy. Also, Amazon may have some reviews.

Ditto.

I have his Mendelssohn symphonies with that orchestra and they are very good. For "dirt cheap" I would toss some compost their way and take 'em. :)

8)

Quote from: ukrneal on February 09, 2011, 08:24:07 AM
I saw that there too, but I have not heard it. He is a bit under-rated and did many good recordings from that time wth the SFSO. So I would take the risk myself - if it is as inexpensive as you say, it will be a good buy. Also, Amazon may have some reviews.

Quote from: Scarpia on February 09, 2011, 08:27:35 AM
Never heard a bad Bloomstedt SFO recording (Sibelius, Bruckner, Hindemith, Nielsen) but I've never heard that Schubert.

Yes, that's why I'm asking. I have his SFSO Orff, Grieg, Hindemith and Nielsen and love all of it, but was somewhat disappointed by his rather bland Dresden Bruckner. Bruckner has deep roots in Schubert, especially his 9th, so hence my concern. I like my Schubert to have the freedom of phrasing of his Lieder. Amazon has some very positive reviews of his Schubert 9, so I may get that for starters. I have yet to find a recording of that symphony which satisfies me. Furtwängler's is still the best by a long shot, but mono and with all the technical drawbacks of that orchestra at that time. Wand is good, but a little too straight-laced, Dohynani too analytic, again lacking that freedom, Guilini and Celi just too broad, though not uninteresting. I heard Barenboim conduct the CSO in a performance in 2005 or so of the 9th that had an urgency and drive and passion not even matched by Furtwängler, with all that freedom of phrasing that made the link to Schubert's Lieder apparent, but with technical execution that put even Dohnyani's Clevelanders to shame. But what I heard of Barenboim's BPO Schubert cycle (5 & 8) from the late 80s or whenever on Sony isn't anywhere near that level, so I haven't gone out and bought his Berlin 9th, though it's now available in a super-cheap reissue.

Quote from: Mensch on February 09, 2011, 08:49:55 AM
I have yet to find a recording of that symphony which satisfies me.

It's very much out of print, but if you see it in some used bin do give a try to Konwitschny leading Czech Philharmonic on Supraphon.

(http://cdn.7static.com/static/img/sleeveart/00/010/170/0001017015_350.jpg)

Should be able to hear clips here:
http://us.7digital.com/artists/czech-philharmonic-orchestra-franz-konwitschny/schubert-symphony-no-9-in-c-major-great/

Quote from: Mensch on February 09, 2011, 08:49:55 AM
Yes, that's why I'm asking. I have his SFSO Orff, Grieg, Hindemith and Nielsen and love all of it, but was somewhat disappointed by his rather bland Dresden Bruckner. Bruckner has deep roots in Schubert, especially his 9th, so hence my concern. I like my Schubert to have the freedom of phrasing of his Lieder. Amazon has some very positive reviews of his Schubert 9, so I may get that for starters. I have yet to find a recording of that symphony which satisfies me. Furtwängler's is still the best by a long shot, but mono and with all the technical drawbacks of that orchestra at that time. Wand is good, but a little too straight-laced, Dohynani too analytic, again lacking that freedom, Guilini and Celi just too broad, though not uninteresting. I heard Barenboim conduct the CSO in a performance in 2005 or so of the 9th that had an urgency and drive and passion not even matched by Furtwängler, with all that freedom of phrasing that made the link to Schubert's Lieder apparent, but with technical execution that put even Dohnyani's Clevelanders to shame. But what I heard of Barenboim's BPO Schubert cycle (5 & 8) from the late 80s or whenever on Sony isn't anywhere near that level, so I haven't gone out and bought his Berlin 9th, though it's now available in a super-cheap reissue.

For the 9th, I like Karajan's old 1968 recording.  For the 8th, Harnoncourt's Vienna Symphony Orchestra recording (not the more well known Concertgebouw recording).
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CyVbxMcJL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Thanks guys, I'll keep those in mind.

I too have searched for a "perfect" Schubert #9: 1. interpretation 2. performance 3. recording. Of older recordings I would point to the first Furtwängler from the war years, much more driven and passionate than his alternately grandiose and bucolic post-war recordings (live and studio). But the recorded sound hardly fulfils the demands of the third criterion, and the interpretation is somehow über-subjective. Then the Erich Kleiber performance - doubtless made in a single take for Cologne radio and not instrumentally "perfect" but with both Viennese charm and immense dramatic power where needed e.g. in the Andante con moto. - Digression: I haven't, by the way, heard the CD transfer of this on Medici Masters, but can only enthusiastically recommend it, also in consideration of the inclusion on the disc of the 3 scenes from Wozzeck (which I also have on LP) with Kupper - Kleiber of course was the conductor of the first performance of this opera at a critical time in German history (you could compare this with another authoritative recording by Scherchen with the same singer recorded a few years later if you can find it.) - Of modern recordings known to me, I remember the Giulini as beautifully marmoreal, but the great find for me was the live (from the RFH) Gielen on Hänssler , where the orchestral sound is both HIP in style (no "slow" intro but alla breve Andante so no speeding up for instance) and modern (Webern?) sounding - I must warn you though that this is not for-sinking-back-into-your-plush-sofa-with-a-slice-of-Sachertorte Schubert...

Quote from: mjwal on February 10, 2011, 03:56:43 AM
I must warn you though that this is not for-sinking-back-into-your-plush-sofa-with-a-slice-of-Sachertorte Schubert...

Which is certainly not what I would want anyway.  ;) Now on to giving Blomstedt a spin.

OK, listened to the Blomstedt/SFSO 9th. Thanks for the recommendations. It is very, very good, indeed. May become my new favorite in modern sound, ahead of Wand. The first movement is probably the best part of the performance. Phrasing of inner voices is excellent throughout, and the SFSO plays beautifully, once again showing that the whole big-5 concept is woefully outdated. My only two minor gripes are that the buildup to the climax of the second movement is not nearly as harrowing as it could be, and the trio section of the third movement is a bit too sober, lacking a bit in atmosphere. But generally an excellent performance, of a single piece from beginning to end.

Quote from: Mensch on February 10, 2011, 09:01:30 AM
OK, listened to the Blomstedt/SFSO 9th. Thanks for the recommendations. It is very, very good, indeed. May become my new favorite in modern sound, ahead of Wand. The first movement is probably the best part of the performance. Phrasing of inner voices is excellent throughout, and the SFSO plays beautifully, once again showing that the whole big-5 concept is woefully outdated. My only two minor gripes are that the buildup to the climax of the second movement is not nearly as harrowing as it could be, and the trio section of the third movement is a bit too sober, lacking a bit in atmosphere. But generally an excellent performance, of a single piece from beginning to end.

Snagged a copy on amazon marketplace for $1.98.   ;D

So of course in the 24 hours that I decide to try out Blomstedt's 9th before committing to buy 5 & 8, someone else picks up that disc from my neighborhood used CD store.  >:D

Quote from: Mensch on February 11, 2011, 06:36:12 AM
So of course in the 24 hours that I decide to try out Blomsted's 9th before committing to buy 5 & 8, someone else picks up that disc from my neighborhood used CD store.  >:D

Ok, guys, 'fess up, who pinched it?

.[asin]B000003009[/asin]

What's this like?

Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on February 28, 2011, 09:49:51 AM
.[asin]B000003009[/asin]

What's this like?

I find it a fascinating disk. I bought it to hear Newbold's edition of the 10th, and I love what he did with it. It's exciting music, and very moving to say the least. If you have heard other recordings of the unfinished 10th and like this work, I'm sure you will like this performance. It's also an excellant introduction to the 10th, and it's great to have the other fragments of earlier symphonies included.

The fragments of the other symphonies are tantalizing indeed. The performances are wonderful.

As long as we are on the subject of stuff Schubert didn't finished, there's the 8th symphony.  I've read in a lot of cd booklets that there was a 3rd movement in piano score of which the first 9 bars had been orchestrated.  Are there any recordings where someone has played the piano score, or completed the orchestration?

Quote from: Leo K on March 04, 2011, 10:09:27 AM
I find it a fascinating disk. I bought it to hear Newbold's edition of the 10th, and I love what he did with it. It's exciting music, and very moving to say the least. If you have heard other recordings of the unfinished 10th and like this work, I'm sure you will like this performance. It's also an excellant introduction to the 10th, and it's great to have the other fragments of earlier symphonies included.

The fragments of the other symphonies are tantalizing indeed. The performances are wonderful.

Another vote for this disc. The music is very interesting (tantalizing even) and the performances are vivacious and engaged throughout.

Thanks! I was surprised to find that Mackerras disc didn't contain the 7th - all the others aside from the 10th were lesser-known un-numbered ones. I would also be interested in that movement from the 8th that Scarpia mentions.

Schubert experts! I've got a question. "Death and the maiden" - it's a Lied by Schubert and also a string quartet, which shares the Lieds theme in the second movement. The Lyrics of the Lied are those (Src. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_and_the_Maiden_(song))):

QuoteDas Mädchen:
Vorüber! Ach, vorüber!
Geh, wilder Knochenmann!
Ich bin noch jung! Geh, lieber,
Und rühre mich nicht an.
Und rühre mich nicht an.

Der Tod:
Gib deine Hand, du schön und zart Gebild!
Bin Freund, und komme nicht, zu strafen.
Sei gutes Muts! ich bin nicht wild,
Sollst sanft in meinen Armen schlafen!

The Maiden:
Pass me by! Oh, pass me by!
Go, fierce man of bones!
I am still young! Go, rather,
And do not touch me.
And do not touch me.

Death:
Give me your hand, you beautiful and tender form!
I am a friend, and come not to punish.
Be of good cheer! I am not fierce,
Softly shall you sleep in my arms!

Now in the following Video you hear the string quartets Andante accompanied with voice and electronic music. Lyrics start at 0:20 - What lyrics are used here? I cannot recognize the Lieds lyrics here, at least not the german lyrics. Honestly I do not understand the sung text at all. Sounds like - gibberish. We say "Kauderwelsch". I'm a native german speaker. Your opinions? BTW, I love that piece. Both, the SQ and also the Murcof "remix".

http://www.youtube.com/v/am0TeTZNw3Y

I'm trying to get in touch with some more Chamber Music from the 'Biggies', incl. Schubert. I didn't take to the SQs too well (see Posts), but really liked the String Quintet,... and I'm not to clear on the PTs.

What is FS's most...uh....best...uh...

oy, help me out here!

Quote from: snyprrr on May 15, 2011, 08:24:49 AM
I'm trying to get in touch with some more Chamber Music from the 'Biggies', incl. Schubert. I didn't take to the SQs too well (see Posts), but really liked the String Quintet,... and I'm not to clear on the PTs.

What is FS's most...uh....best...uh...

oy, help me out here!

I'm assuming the Trout quintet and Octet will be too cloyingly saccharine for you.  I don't know the Piano Trios, but I'm surprised the Death and the Maiden quartet did not make an impression.
 

You should try the late string quartets again, you blew them off too quickly and frankly that was two years ago, give them a fresh listen.

I'm not sure what "I'm not to clear on the PTs" mean, but if it means you haven't listened to them, they are perhaps the finest piano trios ever written, excepting perhaps Beethoven's Op 70 and the Archduke Trio.

Also you want to check out the Arpeggione sonata.  Happy listening! :)

I'll follow up with recordings in a second.

[asin]B000H0MGZU[/asin] [asin]B000069CVC[/asin] [asin]B00000078H[/asin]

I like these, maybe you will too. :)

If you're looking for some more chamber music from Schubert, I'm sorry to tell you that there isn't much more than what you have already listed. Of course, I'm not including lieder and stuff. Oh, BTW, have you listened D. 965? It's a work for soprano, clarinet and piano. Lovely, heart-warming piece.

http://www.youtube.com/v/rPpII4xTVrc

http://www.youtube.com/v/IIJKgRs2BMU

Here is a nice set PI recordings of some of his chamber music: Bylsma and gang, performing Schubert (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000P6RB9M/?tag=goodmusicguideco)

Navneeth, I haven't heard D 965, I'm going to have to check it out.

I couldn't get your link to work is this what you're talking about?
[asin]B000P6RB9M[/asin]

Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 15, 2011, 11:27:09 AM
I haven't heard those, but I've never heard a bad recording from the Florestan Trio.

They're my favorite piano trio ensemble, and worth paying full price for.

Quote from: haydnfan on May 15, 2011, 11:27:37 AM
I couldn't get your link to work is this what you're talking about?
[asin]B000P6RB9M[/asin]

Yep. (Sorry about that link. It's fixed now.)

Quote from: haydnfan on May 15, 2011, 08:50:28 AM
Oh wait snips you're not the one that doesn't like BAT so check this out, my first set:

Oh David, don't be such a baby. 8) BTW as mentioned before, I actually like that BAT Schubert recording. But whatever.

More recommendations:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516LBpfyYYL._SS400_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5160aIv0DUL._SS500_.jpg)

Q

Quote from: ~ Que ~ on May 15, 2011, 10:47:02 PM
BTW as mentioned before, I actually like that BAT Schubert recording. But whatever.

See Snips, even Q likes it! :D

Quote from: ~ Que ~ on May 15, 2011, 10:47:02 PM
Oh David, don't be such a baby. 8) BTW as mentioned before, I actually like that BAT Schubert recording. But whatever.

More recommendations:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516LBpfyYYL._SS400_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5160aIv0DUL._SS500_.jpg)

Q

I heard samples of the Gaia Scienza's Brahms PQ. WOW!! Who else plays like them?? :o

Has a numerical list of Schubert's piano sonatas been made (like with his quartets), in the same way that Beethoven's ones are sometimes organised? I have proven to be unable to memorise all the D. numbers, so for cataloguing purposes it would help. English Wikipedia avoids this convention, but the two articles on specific sonatas on German Wikipedia use a number in the titles, although there is no master list anywhere on there :-\

Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on June 25, 2011, 02:15:02 PM
Has a numerical list of Schubert's piano sonatas been made (like with his quartets), in the same way that Beethoven's ones are sometimes organised? I have proven to be unable to memorise all the D. numbers, so for cataloguing purposes it would help. English Wikipedia avoids this convention, but the two articles on specific sonatas on German Wikipedia use a number in the titles, although there is no master list anywhere on there :-\

http://www.trovar.com/Deutsch.html

Excellent! Thanks, toñito :) A final annoying question: do you know why certain numbers are missing on that list (No.7, 10)? Maybe it's an "incomplete" problem like Schubert's "7th", or perhaps like "Mozart"'s misattributed 37th symphony?

Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on June 25, 2011, 04:46:17 PM
Maybe it's an "incomplete" problem like Schubert's "7th"...

Yes, the fragments are the problem. For instance, Badura-Skoda's complete set of sonatas for pianoforte numbers the op. posth. 122, D 568 as No. 7; D 571 as No. 8 and D 613/612 as No. 10.  :) 

Quote from: toñito on June 25, 2011, 05:03:15 PM
Yes, the fragments are the problem. For instance, Badura-Skoda's complete set of sonatas for pianoforte numbers the op. posth. 122, D 568 as No. 7; D 571 as No. 8 and D 613/612 as No. 10.  :)

Precisely!  I have a couple of other disks also that do this; they take either very large fragments or else otherwise unattached sonata movements, and if they are in the correct key, they compile them into a sonata. It is very likely that, at least in some cases, they are exactly correct and that these movements were intended to go together. Without documentation, however, we will never know if they are right or not. Meanwhile, I try not to worry about it and I enjoy the music, which is certainly worthy of listening even if it isn't a set. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
La Petite Bande / Sigiswald Kuijken - Hob 02 20 Divertimento in F 3rd mvmt - Adagio

Thanks! I'll begin re-tagging ;)

Memorising numbers like, say, No.14, 17 and 20 will be a lot easier than the Yen-like inflation of D.810, 850 and 959 :)

Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on June 25, 2011, 05:22:16 PM
Thanks! I'll begin re-tagging ;)

Memorising numbers like, say, No.14, 17 and 20 will be a lot easier than the Yen-like inflation of D.810, 850 and 959 :)

More power to you, Sara, but not to be ornery, just sayin'; it is far easier for me to remember Opus, Köchel, Hob. & Deutsche numbers than it is to remember "String Quartet #14" or "Sonata #12". I know that sounds strange, I guess it's just the way my memory works. And clearly, it is the antithesis of the way your memory works! :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
The Hanover Band / Goodman - Hob 01 001 Symphony in D 2nd mvmt - Andante

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on June 25, 2011, 05:31:31 PM
More power to you, Sara, but not to be ornery, just sayin'; it is far easier for me to remember Opus, Köchel, Hob. & Deutsche numbers than it is to remember "String Quartet #14" or "Sonata #12". I know that sounds strange, I guess it's just the way my memory works. And clearly, it is the antithesis of the way your memory works! :D

Nope! Not strange at all. Without those "D" numbers and "K" numbers and such it'd be chaos for me, too!

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on June 25, 2011, 06:09:25 PM
Nope! Not strange at all. Without those "D" numbers and "K" numbers and such it'd be chaos for me, too!

Ah, splendid! I don't feel so alone out here now. When people are talking Beethoven sonatas and mention Sonata #15, for example, I'm just a total blank! But if they say Opus 28 instead, I don't even have to think about it. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Hamburg Soloists / Emil Klein - Hob 03 03 Divertimento in D for Strings Op 1 #3 3rd mvmt - Adagio

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on June 25, 2011, 06:19:07 PM
Ah, splendid! I don't feel so alone out here now. When people are talking Beethoven sonatas and mention Sonata #15, for example, I'm just a total blank! But if they say Opus 28 instead, I don't even have to think about it. :)

Lol. :) Yep, me too! Interestingly I had assumed that our way was more the norm out there than going by work numbers. I guess it isn't!

Or is it...?

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on June 25, 2011, 06:19:07 PM
Ah, splendid! I don't feel so alone out here now. When people are talking Beethoven sonatas and mention Sonata #15, for example, I'm just a total blank! But if they say Opus 28 instead, I don't even have to think about it. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Hamburg Soloists / Emil Klein - Hob 03 03 Divertimento in D for Strings Op 1 #3 3rd mvmt - Adagio

Ah, but does that apply across the board.  Do you know what Beethoven Opp.55,  67 and 125 are, without going to look it up?  And even if you do recognize them off the top of your head, I bet you you don't usually refer to them by their opus numbers.

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 25, 2011, 06:34:00 PM
Ah, but does that apply across the board.  Do you know what Beethoven Opp.55,  67 and 125 are, without going to look it up?  And even if you do recognize them off the top of your head, I bet you you don't usually refer to them by their opus numbers.

No, don't bet, you would lose your money, and badly! That IS the way I do it, at least to myself. It's true that with the symphonies I am far more likely to use the number when discussing it with someone else, but to myself, it is always the opus number. Have to be consistent! :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
L'Orchestre de la Suisse-Romande \ Ansermet - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 1st mvmt - Allegro ma non troppo, un poco maestoso

It definitely depends on the case. Major works by Schubert and Beethoven are easy to quote by Deutsch or Opus number because certain numbers have entered into classical mythology - such figures as Op.109, D.958-60, etc. Earlier works by Schubert being named by D. number alone would require looking up, for me at least, to work out whether a mentioned "D.537" is an earlier work in the medium, or had he already written a dozen (as he had by D.625)? The numbers are close and easy to confuse :)

With Haydn's quartets anyone trying to consecutively number such an already perfect system of Opus collections would only succeed in confusing people, but in a less "compartmentalised" set of publishings such as Beethoven's quartets, consecutive numbering is more useful - especially when the chronology and stylistic development is so clear.

Let's talk music and not technicalities!

Isn't the andante movement of the D.810 quartet astonishing? That noble, surging, tragic theme which crops up in the middle lifts the work to such heights that the last two movements cannot really equal.

What do you all think of his final D.887 quartet? I cannot find quite the levels of personality of the previous two in it, although there are fewer recordings, I suppose, so maybe I just haven't listened often enough.

Edit: I am playing it now, and I think I know why it doesn't stick in the memory. It is full of quite startling "effects", and has a sense of otherness - it lacks some of the direct emotional engagement of the previous two. Not that this is a bad thing.

Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on June 30, 2011, 03:07:26 PM
Let's talk music and not technicalities!

Isn't the andante movement of the D.810 quartet astonishing? That noble, surging, tragic theme which crops up in the middle lifts the work to such heights that the last two movements cannot really equal.

What do you all think of his final D.887 quartet? I cannot find quite the levels of personality of the previous two in it, although there are fewer recordings, I suppose, so maybe I just haven't listened often enough.

Edit: I am playing it now, and I think I know why it doesn't stick in the memory. It is full of quite startling "effects", and has a sense of otherness - it lacks some of the direct emotional engagement of the previous two. Not that this is a bad thing.

To me, it is Schubert's finest piece. A stark judgement, but one I've felt for years. To me, every note sticks in the memory. I don't find it emotionally disengaged,  not at all. In fact I find it much more direct than the previous two. There's no hiding behind self-quotation or variation form or the friendly familarities one adores in say the A minor quartet - just this enormously new, frighteningly raw world, full of shocking new sounds, with some of the finest, tenderest material Schubert ever devised put up against many raw, new types of writing which blow me away with their communicative power. The liner notes to one CD I have of the piece called the slow movement 'shockingly beautiful; or some such thing, and that idea stuck with me - that this piece, in a way which is almost modern (think Silvestrov), plays with beauty, appals us with the onslaughts it heaps upon its innocence, and simply stuns and frightens us with the raw power of such exposed, achingly beautiful lines. It's a thoroughly revolutionary work, the Romantic counterpart to the Classicizing revolutions going on in Beethoven's last quartets, to which it is, IMO, equal (and the other two aren't on that level, for my money). The revolutions are formal and textural above all,

Formally, there is most obviously the construction of the argument less around themes than around a simple harmonic movement - the idea of the stark major-minor juxtaposition which is the motive of the first movement and which is present in the others too, coming to the surfce again in the last. IN the first movment that slow process of bleeding, creeping change from sharply dotted rhythms tragically falling into the minor into , at the recap, smoothly, sweetly articulated slips into a consolatory major. The roots of Mahler 6 are here... I prefer them here, raw, unflinchingly direct. The idea returns in the finale, the major-minor juxtapositions slipping past as quickly as in, say, Busoni. This finale, I used to think, let the piece down, like some other Schubert finales. Not a bit of it - it is a breathless, fatalistic, desperate and haunted dance, and its length and extreme, wiry textures are really point. And as for the central movements - the hushed, processionals of the slow movement are simply sublime; the harsh, dogged, unbending two note motive which dominates the centre of the movement, resolutely sticking to its notes no matter what keys the music slips to around it, is another feature which is strikingly modern, instantly communicative.

Texturally, this quartet stretches the bounds, it is orchestral in scale and scope. Within bars, Schibert is calling for a tremolo, such an atypical device in chamber music until decades later, but perfecrly idiomatic in orchestral writing. It's almost a statement of intent! And indeed, as we move on, there are cruel exposed lies, for the first violin above all, which are really orchestral writing, not quartet writing; the same could be said of much of the finale....and yet, and yet, it works, it creates this edgy, wiry sound that keeps the tension screwed to the maximum.   

BTW, with this talk of the orchestral writing in this quartet in mind, there is a string orchestra transcription, very lovingly done, wonderfully crafted, thought-provking - it's on ECM, Gidon Kremer and his Kremerata.

it is late. I apologise for my tediously limited vocabulary in the previous post. Too tired now to go back and find synonyms for 'raw' and 'new', two words I vastly overused! So you'll have to insert them yourselves!

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 25, 2011, 06:34:00 PM
Ah, but does that apply across the board.  Do you know what Beethoven Opp.55,  67 and 125 are, without going to look it up?  And even if you do recognize them off the top of your head, I bet you you don't usually refer to them by their opus numbers.

For some reason for symphonies and concertos I go by their internal #, like symphony #3.  But when it comes to chamber and piano I prefer Op # or catalogue #.

I hate the stupid, pointless Opus numbers for Schubert.  They mean zippy-di-doo-dah.  Gotta use the D.XXX numbering system for him.   :D

@Luke: thanks! Once it finished, I felt more of a cohesiveness from it than the previous two. No.14 in particular is heavily weighted to the front two movements (nothing unusual for Schubert), and No.13 despite being gorgeous is more formally standard than both the following two. That additional sense of even balance and consequently great overall weight does lend an orchestral feel to the work. I will beg, borrow or steal that disc depending on how I can find it. I thought I might already have a copy, but it's of an orchestration of the 14th quartet.

@ChamberNut: indeedie, for some composers opus numbers are great, for Schubert they are pretty useless.

Me thinks Schubert was 'ON' his game, when he wrote the 'Andante con moto' of his D810 quartet.   It's like Darryl Sittler's NHL record of 10 points in one game......he was on fire that night.

Letting this one out of the pen for the Schubie 8th:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Drfgv0YDL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I believe this is my favorite 8th recording....do like the Kleiber and Sinopoli, but Dohnányi hits the spot for me.

Quote from: Bogey on September 19, 2011, 07:08:13 PM
Letting this one out of the pen for the Schubie 8th:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Drfgv0YDL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I believe this is my favorite 8th recording....do like the Kleiber and Sinopoli, but Dohnányi hits the spot for me.

I love Dohnányi and the Cleveland Orchestra's 9th as well, Bill.

Quote from: ChamberNut on September 19, 2011, 07:20:42 PM
I love Dohnányi and the Cleveland Orchestra's 9th as well, Bill.

Did they do the cycle, Ray?

Quote from: Bogey on September 19, 2011, 07:24:04 PM
Did they do the cycle, Ray?

Not sure, Bill.  I have only heard the 8th and 9th (Schubert)

Quote from: ChamberNut on September 19, 2011, 07:26:10 PM
Not sure, Bill.  I have only heard the 8th and 9th (Schubert)

That is all I can find....I will try to snag a 9th soon.  I wonder if Cleveland did them all with a different conductor?  Szell?

Quote from: Bogey on September 19, 2011, 07:08:13 PM
Letting this one out of the pen for the Schubie 8th:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Drfgv0YDL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I believe this is my favorite 8th recording....do like the Kleiber and Sinopoli, but Dohnányi hits the spot for me.

I think I used to have that cd in my collection Bill.  First rate conductor! :)

Just finishing listening to the 4th and final disc of this fantastic set I picked up yesterday.  Do not hesitate - buy with confidence.  It is downright amazing!   :)  Particularly out of this world performance of the Grand Duo in C major, D 812 (the frenetic energy of the final movement will just blow you away!) and of the Lebenssturme in A minor, D 947

Buy with confidence!   8)

[asin]B000EDWM1I[/asin]

Quote from: ChamberNut on September 20, 2011, 07:26:53 AM
Just finishing listening to the 4th and final disc of this fantastic set I picked up yesterday.  Do not hesitate - buy with confidence.  It is downright amazing!   :)  Particularly out of this world performance of the Grand Duo in C major, D 812 (the frenetic energy of the final movement will just blow you away!) and of the Lebenssturme in A minor, D 947

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61HKY3N0YCL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://img2.wantitall.co.za/images/ShowImage.aspx?ImageId=Franz-Schubert-Daniel-Barenboim-Radu-Lupu-Schubert-Military-Marches-Variations-Grand-Duo-Barenboim-L%7C61lcCV5B52L.jpg)

Hey Ray - so many positive reviews of that Brilliant box - just put in an order from Amazon!  :D

Thanks to all for your comments - the only other recording I had of these works was a single disc added above w/ Lupu - :)

Quote from: toucan on September 20, 2011, 03:27:37 AM
Christoph Von Dohnanyi is very well known, yet under-appreciated it seems to me; under-appreciated because the extent to which he is one of our few remaining conductors who is ion a par with legendary conductors from past golden ages (including his predecessor at Cleveland, Georges Szell), is not fully appreciated.

*raises mug of coffee to this comment*

Quote from: toucan on September 20, 2011, 03:27:37 AM
There is furthermore a live recording of Schubert's 5th in the Dohnanyi/Cleveland box set that was released in 2001 by the Musical Arts Association of Severance Hall:

(http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m465/Phil1_05/IvesDohnanyiCentralPark.jpg)

Ah....a 5th!

Quote from: DavidW on September 20, 2011, 05:02:05 AM
I think I used to have that cd in my collection Bill.  First rate conductor! :)

This tandem of Big "D" and Cleveland also recorded my favorite LvB 9th as well David. 

This one got some listening love today:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5160aIv0DUL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

There seem to be a gazillion recordings of this piece, so will have to pick up a few more efforts. ;D

Quote from: Bogey on September 20, 2011, 06:06:05 PM
This one got some listening love today:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5160aIv0DUL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

There seem to be a gazillion recordings of this piece, so will have to pick up a few more efforts. ;D

Well, you don't need many more, Bill, that one rocks!  :)

8)

Quote from: Luke on June 30, 2011, 04:37:58 PM
BTW, with this talk of the orchestral writing in this quartet in mind, there is a string orchestra transcription, very lovingly done, wonderfully crafted, thought-provking - it's on ECM, Gidon Kremer and his Kremerata.

I finally heard this - I am in two minds about it. It is really impressive, expecially texturally, but it also feels sluggish when each line is mirrored in this way, despite not being the case in terms of actual duration. The work had a certain incisiveness that is lost at the same time as other interesting parts being revealed.

Somewhat off-topic, do you recall the scene in  Conspiracy (2001) where, after scumbag Heydrich praises the Adagio from Schubert's Quintet in C, and later scumbag Eichmann remarks to the caterers (after Heydrich had left the building) that he "could never understand Schubert's sentimental Viennese sh*t" ?

I know Heydrich praised German musical greats (not that his opinion was worth offal) but I am curious if there is any biographical information that Eichmann did not (nor does his opinion count for anything)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdhRYMY6IEc    :)

Trying to find a recording of the reconstructed Schubert 10, is Mackerras the only one available?

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 11, 2012, 04:09:07 PM
Trying to find a recording of the reconstructed Schubert 10, is Mackerras the only one available?

There's one by Marriner and the ASMF as part of a box set of the complete symphonies, not sure if the CD with No. 10 (also containing the similarly reconstructed 7th) is available separately.

Quote from: Mountain Goat on August 12, 2012, 06:56:56 AMThere's one by Marriner and the ASMF as part of a box set of the complete symphonies, not sure if the CD with No. 10 (also containing the similarly reconstructed 7th) is available separately.

The Marriner box also has the orchestrated 7th, which is actually pretty good.

The "completed" 8th remains unconvincing in either iteration IMHO.

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 11, 2012, 04:09:07 PM
Trying to find a recording of the reconstructed Schubert 10, is Mackerras the only one available?

Unfortunately the following is unlikely to be of much use because it's nearly impossible to find, but - back in the late days of LP (and then reissued as a CD) was this:


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/415SsoGEHTL.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000004502/?tag=goodmusicguideco)


It very much needs to be brought back, perhaps as an ArkivCD?  It's absolutely superb; it takes the Newbould completion, with a certain amount of modification (esp. in much bolder trombones) by the conductor Bartholomee, and adds in the unfinished Scherzo D.708A to make a reasonable semblance of a four-movement version of the sketches.  Now, Newbould in his book is emphatic that he thinks Schubert meant to write a three-movement work only, thus no Scherzo sketch at all.  Perhaps.  But how could we possibly know?  And why would Schubert suddenly wander off into a variant form (3 mvt.)  of the symphony that was not yet much used by anybody, when that was clearly not his tendency in other works at all?  Despite all that, however, alone of the three Tenths known to me, Bartholomee makes it a true performance exemplar.  Write to Arkiv.  Tell them to get off their duffs and reissue this thing.  Meanwhile, check all the used sources and hope you get lucky....

eyeresist mentions he thinks completions of the 8th unsatisfactory.  Again back to LP days (this time c.1960, and not reissued that I know of), the American conductor Max Goberman showed us why this is true.  Goberman teamed up with the Viennese keyboard artist Kurt Rapf to issue a recording of the 8th note for note exactly as Schubert had left it.  This means that the sketch of the third movement was there as well; the first eight measures orchestrated, the rest sketched only in piano score (and the trio consisting only of the melodic line, no harmony; and halfway through it ends entirely).  Never has it been so obvious that the intended Scherzo was completely inadequate when put up against the rest.  Schubert obviously knew this too, and so gave up.   

Quote from: Uncle Connie on August 14, 2012, 11:41:23 AMeyeresist mentions he thinks completions of the 8th unsatisfactory.  Again back to LP days (this time c.1960, and not reissued that I know of), the American conductor Max Goberman showed us why this is true.  Goberman teamed up with the Viennese keyboard artist Kurt Rapf to issue a recording of the 8th note for note exactly as Schubert had left it.  This means that the sketch of the third movement was there as well; the first eight measures orchestrated, the rest sketched only in piano score (and the trio consisting only of the melodic line, no harmony; and halfway through it ends entirely).  Never has it been so obvious that the intended Scherzo was completely inadequate when put up against the rest.

Interesting post. I also find the Rosamunde Entr'acte inadequate as a finale. It doesn't match.

Schubert heiß ich, Schubert bin ich
Und als solchen geb ich mich.
Was die Besten je geleistet,
Ich erkenn' es, ich verehr' es,
Immer doch bleibt's außer mir.
Selbst die Kunst, die Kränze windet,
Blumen sammelt, wählt und bindet,
Ich kann ihr nur Blumen bieten,
Sichte sie und --- wählet ihr.
Lobt ihr mich, es soll mich freuen,
Schmäht ihr mich, ich muß es dulden,
Schubert heiß ich, Schubert bin ich,
Mag nicht hindern, kann nicht laden,
Geht ihr gern auf meinen Pfaden,
Nun wohlan, so folget mir!

---Franz Grillparzer

Came across this in a little German pocket-book on S. and spent the better part of an hour looking up various words. The tranlation i came up with is approximate at best, and i can't find an English version online.

Got hold of the Marriner "10 Symphonies" set and am listening to the early symphonies. I'd forgotten what fun they were, absolutely delightful!

One thing I notice about Schubert is his ability to write music you listen to for the first time and it seems you've always known it. For example, I listened to the 6th and I absolutely convinced I'd never heard it before and yet it sounds so familiar!

Just getting up to the reconstructions.

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 27, 2012, 11:16:27 PMGot hold of the Marriner "10 Symphonies" set and am listening to the early symphonies. I'd forgotten what fun they were, absolutely delightful!

Yes, I think Marriner is outstanding in 1 and 2.

Was listening last night to Schubert's Piano Sonata in D major, D850.

Now, in the 2nd movement Con moto, I immediately recognized a theme.  Well, at least, to my ears, what sounded like a familiar famous theme.

It was a theme from the Nessun Dorma aria from Puccini's Turandot.  Does anyone know what I'm talking about and am I somewhat right, or just hallucinating?  ;D 8)

Quote from: ChamberNut on August 28, 2012, 04:16:59 AM
Was listening last night to Schubert's Piano Sonata in D major, D850.

Now, in the 2nd movement Con moto, I immediately recognized a theme.  Well, at least, to my ears, what sounded like a familiar famous theme.

It was a theme from the Nessun Dorma aria from Puccini's Turandot.  Does anyone know what I'm talking about and am I somewhat right, or just hallucinating?  ;D 8)

I can only conclude that the non-response to me query means that I was delusion at the time I was listening to the Sonata.  ;D

Quote from: ChamberNut on August 28, 2012, 09:38:14 AM
I can only conclude that the non-response to me query means that I was delusion at the time I was listening to the Sonata.  ;D

I don't know Turandot, so I couldn't know if Puccini ripped off Schubert. Wouldn't be surprised though. :)

8)

Quote from: ChamberNut on August 28, 2012, 09:38:14 AM
I can only conclude that the non-response to me query means that I was delusion at the time I was listening to the Sonata.  ;D

If you can post the links to the appropriate moments from YouTube clips, we'll make sure to send across a diagnosis. :D

Quote from: ChamberNut on August 28, 2012, 09:38:14 AM
I can only conclude that the non-response to me query means that I was delusion at the time I was listening to the Sonata.  ;D

Intrigued, I put it on. I'm halfway through and have not noticed anything so far. Maybe the interpretation affects it a bit too?

Just been listening to the reconstructions from the Marriner CD set.

No 7 is great, I think that Schubert had written it all out in short score and so Newbould had only to orchestrate it. It sounds exactly as you'd expect a symphony between No 6 and No 8 to sound.

No.8 great performance of the movements by Marriner and the ASMF; great to hear the Scherzo realised, I think it's the equal of the first two movements. However, I'm not convinced by the Entr'acte from Rosamunde as the finale. I just don't think it was intended as the finale, or Schubert recomposed it so much it no longer fits. The Entr'acte is minor key, dramatic &c, but stage dramatic, not profound as the first two (three movements).

No.10 What a revelation, really exciting material and almost completely convincing realisation. (I say this because with any reconstruction, eg Mahler 10, Bruckner 9 &c you have the sense that the composer would have done so much more). As to the three movement form, I think this works too, the finale is both scherzo and finale. Marriner plays other fragments as well as these three recnstructions so you can make a disk or a playlist with the scherzo D708a as a third movement, and, although it's earlier in style, it does fit, but it's not necessary (IMHO). Both this scherzo and the finale start with little flowing chattering figures, only they're different, so if you play a 4 movement version when you get the finale you think 'haven't I heard this before? no, wait, it was different then....' And you lose the thread. Three movement version for me!

Glad you are enjoying the Marriner box. I must listen to 7 and 10 today!

Listened to the French-Canadian radio station Espace Musiques, which play a stirring recording of Kempff playing Schubert's B flat major D960 piano sonata.

Indeed, as the radio programmer described, there must be a better word to describe Schubert than 'genius'.  The term is thrown around too loosely, and it taints true genius, as is the authentic case with Schubert.

Schubert Symphony Set using period instruments - updated suggestions?

Just purchased my second 'complete' Schubert Symphonies package (had Harnoncourt & added Kertesz, listening to the latter now) - would like to add one more set to my collection w/ period performances; below are ones found from a preliminary search - the Immerseel recordings (discussed previously in this thread) are being re-released in a month or so according to Amazon USA (top pic, right); the Roy Goodman set has been around; also found a Marc Minokowski offering (rather pricey on that label) - assume the same instrumentation as used on his London Symphonies recording?  Norrington has a bunch of single discs but not sure if a box of all has been on the market?

SO, would appreciate comments on the offerings shown below or suggestions of others that I may have missed - thanks!  Dave :)


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kBIRH9HlL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-HGRZRmZ/0/O/SchubertImmerseel.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51AYhzW5t2L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://en.naive.fr/public/img/front/pho/works/450x450/005655.jpg)

Dave, you can watch some from the Minkowsi set at this website (http://liveweb.arte.tv/fr/tag/mark_minkowski/). Naturally, being recordings of live performances in the truest sense, it may differ in some aspects from the final product, which may have been adjusted here and there, but it should give you a good idea of the performances in general, and let you decide whether if it's your cup of tea. :)

Quote from: Opus106 on October 01, 2012, 09:23:47 AM
Dave, you can watch some from the Minkowsi set at this website (http://liveweb.arte.tv/fr/tag/mark_minkowski/). Naturally, being recordings of live performances in the truest sense, it may differ in some aspects from the final product, which may have been adjusted here and there, but it should give you a good idea of the performances in general, and let you decide whether if it's your cup of tea. :)

Hi Navneeth - thanks for the link; I'll take a listen; own his recordings of the Haydn London Symphonies and enjoy - so certainly a consideration; but so many choices to consider!  Dave :)

There was something like this:

[asin]B000INAVQW[/asin]

In case you haven't seen it yet here is an excellent documentary on Schubert's last year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHwkmiKlQsA

Quote from: Florestan on November 27, 2012, 04:40:56 AM
In case you haven't seen it yet here is an excellent documentary on Schubert's last year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHwkmiKlQsA

The BBC has a knack for doing such good stuff, doesn't it? Thanks for the link. :)

Quote from: Opus106 on November 27, 2012, 04:50:39 AM
The BBC has a knack for doing such good stuff, doesn't it?

Indeed. There are also those about Vivaldi, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven and Chopin, all of them available on youtube.

I only ran across mention of this reissue today, but it's a year old already.  A search did not turn up results in this thread, so....

[asin]B006801PRI[/asin]
Schubert: CHAMBER WORKS - Adolf Bush, Rudolf Serkin et al (Regis, 3cd, 2012)

I notice that MDT is seller it for less than $10.
http://www.mdt.co.uk/schubert-chamber-works-busch-chamber-ensembles-rudolf-serkin-regis-3cds.html (http://www.mdt.co.uk/schubert-chamber-works-busch-chamber-ensembles-rudolf-serkin-regis-3cds.html)

I have the EMI GROC w/Quartets 14/15; I'd be curious to know if the sound is better on this issue.  I have heard both complaints and praise for Regis.  (I avoided their Kempff mono Beethoven sonatas box due to such complaints re: transfer quality, but a handful of other releases have sounded fine to me, without comparison.)

The 9th symphony has always been an absolute favourite of mine since I was very young. Listening to it today (Harnoncourt's performance), I remembered how it was actually the first piece to make me cry when I was younger. But why?! Surely this piece, often acknowledged as particularly happy, should bring jollity to our minds?
I definitely think that the finale has a hidden melancholy and sentimentality to it. I think with the consistent and insistent repetition of the urgency of the rhythms and the desire to remain in major tonality may represent a desperate hope to reach joy and happiness by the end, and yet, never quite reaching it... I think Harnoncourt captures this idea, as there is a diminuendo on the last chord, quite like a final sigh.

Anyway, this is really fascinating for me... what do you all think?

Quote from: madaboutmahler on May 28, 2013, 05:14:12 AM
The 9th symphony has always been an absolute favourite of mine since I was very young. Listening to it today (Harnoncourt's performance), I remembered how it was actually the first piece to make me cry when I was younger. But why?! Surely this piece, often acknowledged as particularly happy, should bring jollity to our minds?
I definitely think that the finale has a hidden melancholy and sentimentality to it. I think with the consistent and insistent repetition of the urgency of the rhythms and the desire to remain in major tonality may represent a desperate hope to reach joy and happiness by the end, and yet, never quite reaching it... I think Harnoncourt captures this idea, as there is a diminuendo on the last chord, quite like a final sigh.

Anyway, this is really fascinating for me... what do you all think?

The music seems emotionally a blank tablet, the performer seems able to impose whatever emotions he wants on it. From tragic (Karajan Vienna) to edgy and driven (Bruno Maderna) to a whole lot of things in between. Schubert's music is often like that, it's one of the things which interests me about it.

Which of the two Harnoncourt records were you listening to? I love Harnoncourt's Schubert.

I agree with Mandryka; for me the joy is most palpable in Mackerras/Philharmonia, by the way. Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw was the first Schubert Ninth (he calls it Eighth, rightly) in my life, and at the time its greatest emotional effect on me came in the push-and-pull struggle of the slow movement - and also in the third-mvt trio, which had a huge impact on the kid version of me.

Quote from: Mandryka on May 28, 2013, 10:57:24 AM
The music seems emotionally a blank tablet, the performer seems able to impose whatever emotions he wants on it. From tragic (Karajan Vienna) to edgy and driven (Bruno Maderna) to a whole lot of things in between. Schubert's music is often like that, it's one of the things which interests me about it.

Which of the two Harnoncourt records were you listening to? I love Harnoncourt's Schubert.

Quote from: Brian on May 28, 2013, 11:00:05 AM
I agree with Mandryka; for me the joy is most palpable in Mackerras/Philharmonia, by the way. Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw was the first Schubert Ninth (he calls it Eighth, rightly) in my life, and at the time its greatest emotional effect on me came in the push-and-pull struggle of the slow movement - and also in the third-mvt trio, which had a huge impact on the kid version of me.

It was from this set:
[asin]B000AGL1A2[/asin]

I can imagine performances being able to be very emotionally different, indeed. This Harnoncourt is the one I grew up with so I suppose my thoughts are based on this performance. I also know Mackerras/OAE. Harnoncourt really does bring out the melancholy in the last movement, there's something to the phrasing of the beautiful oboe second subject, a slight lilting feel that gives a sense of longing. And how the final tutti chord fades away (notice, unison tonic, no 3rds establishing major), giving a sense of an unresolved sigh...

MASS ALERT!!


Sorry, don't be alarmed, I'm just looking for recommendations for a few of Schubert's masses. I have at least one recording of each, but want a duplicate that will contrast well with my No.6, D950 Mass with Shaw/Atlanta and my No.5, D678 Mass with Sawallisch/Bavarian. I have a few of Weil's recordings of the earlier masses, but didn't know what the consensus was on his recording of these two.

In fact, I'll take recs on any of the masses, here's what I already have... Weil - No.1, 2, 3 and 4; Sawallish - No. 4, 5 and German Mass; and Shaw - No.2 and 6.


Thanks in advance.  :)

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 28, 2013, 07:41:44 PM
MASS ALERT!!


Sorry, don't be alarmed, I'm just looking for recommendations for a few of Schubert's masses. I have at least one recording of each, but want a duplicate that will contrast well with my No.6, D950 Mass with Shaw/Atlanta and my No.5, D678 Mass with Sawallisch/Bavarian. I have a few of Weil's recordings of the earlier masses, but didn't know what the consensus was on his recording of these two.

In fact, I'll take recs on any of the masses, here's what I already have... Weil - No.1, 2, 3 and 4; Sawallish - No. 4, 5 and German Mass; and Shaw - No.2 and 6.


Thanks in advance.  :)

Bruno Weil. Recordings in the "definitive" category, I think. :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51N8jJ9WBbL._SY450_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Masses-105-167-324/dp/B0065HDLB2)

(Picture is linked to Amazon US)

Q

Quote from: Que on August 28, 2013, 09:43:26 PM
Bruno Weil. Recordings in the "definitive" category, I think. :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51N8jJ9WBbL._SY450_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Masses-105-167-324/dp/B0065HDLB2)

(Picture is linked to Amazon US)

Q

lol, i was just listening to the Mass D. 950 from this set. No basis for comparison with other recordings (this is the first choral Schubert i've ever heard) but the music itself is really, really impressive. Powerful & dramatic & well orchestrated and etc. Actually it strikes me on first hearing as being a good deal more "Beethovenian" than either of Beethoven's masses for whatever reason. Probably will look into getting their No. 5 next (i'm not sure how interesting the first 4 are by comparison)

Winter Solstice Listen

Schubert

Winterreise, D911

Russell Braun, baritone
Carolyn Maule, piano

CBC Records

[asin]B000BHHVPY[/asin]

A Schubertiad evening:

4 Ländler, D814
Fantasie in F minor, D940
Lebensstürme in A minor, D947
Grand Duo in C major, D812

[asin]B000EDWM1I[/asin]

String Quintet in C major, D956

[asin]B000001GFA[/asin]

Octet in F major, D803 (courtesy of Mr. SockMonkey)  :)

Music from Aston Magna
Harmonia Mundi

Quote from: ChamberNut on January 01, 2014, 04:35:39 PM
A Schubertiad evening:

Octet in F major, D803 (courtesy of Mr. SockMonkey)  :)

Music from Aston Magna
Harmonia Mundi

I'm glad you're still enjoying it, Ray.  :)
Schubert chamber does sound like a great choice for this evening, I think I'll join you.

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 01, 2014, 04:48:07 PM
I'm glad you're still enjoying it, Ray.  :)
Schubert chamber does sound like a great choice for this evening, I think I'll join you.

Absolutely!  :)

This morning, from these magnificent performances!  :)

Schubert

String Quartet movement in C minor, D703
String Quartet # 15 in G major, D887
String Quartet # 14 in D minor, D810 "Death and the Maiden"

Melos Quartett
DG

[asin]B00002DEH3[/asin]

Quote from: ChamberNut on January 04, 2014, 06:35:53 AM
This morning, from these magnificent performances!  :)

Schubert

String Quartet movement in C minor, D703
String Quartet # 15 in G major, D887
String Quartet # 14 in D minor, D810 "Death and the Maiden"

Melos Quartett
DG

[asin]B00002DEH3[/asin]

Excellent, Ray. Great recordings. Also, # 14 and 15 would crack my top 5 favorite SQs. Have a great weekend, my friend.  8)

Listening to this incredible sonata, and amazing performance!  :)

Schubert

Piano Sonata in D major, D850

Schiff, piano

Decca

[asin]B005BLYSQK[/asin]

Good morning!  Now listening to what I now refer to as "The Sergeant Sonata" :D- as I know Sarge really digs this one.  A one movement beauty!

Schubert

Piano Sonata Mvt. in F sharp minor, D571

Schiff, piano

Decca

[asin]B005BLYSQK[/asin]

Does anyone have any information regarding Harnoncourt's decision to decrescendo the final chord of Schubert's 9th Symphony? I'm just curious if there was some sort of notation in the score that aided Harnoncourt in this choice, through my nine recordings of the 'Great' he is the only conductor with this ending.

I'm sure this might be mentioned in the booklet for Harnoncourt's set, but I'm not sure in which one of six areas of CDs scattered in my home it is located at.  ???  :D

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 08, 2014, 05:30:47 PM
Does anyone have any information regarding Harnoncourt's decision to decrescendo the final chord of Schubert's 9th Symphony? I'm just curious if there was some sort of notation in the score that aided Harnoncourt in this choice, through my nine recordings of the 'Great' he is the only conductor with this ending.

First edition (Breitkopf & Härtel)

(http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32084883/schubert%209.png)

Critical edition (ed. Brahms)

(http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32084883/schubert-9.png)

Yep, that's a decrescendo all right.

Quote from: amw on March 08, 2014, 05:39:36 PM
First edition (Breitkopf & Härtel)

Critical edition (ed. Brahms)

Yep, that's a decrescendo all right.

So 1 out of 9 can't be wrong?  ;)

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 08, 2014, 05:44:56 PM
So 1 out of 9 can't be wrong?  ;)

It would make sense when you compare it to the ending of D. 956 - but I also remember reading somewhere that all the 1800s published editions (including both those) are suspect because editors were often "correcting" Schubert's "mistakes". Not sure what recent critical editions say about it.

That said... a decrescendo here would be interpreted as a "mistake" so maybe it is the original intention.

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 08, 2014, 05:44:56 PM
So 1 out of 9 can't be wrong?  ;)

Actually weird... I hadn't noticed before, but pretty much every other conductor ignores the decrescendo. Even some of the other HIPpies (Immerseel, Goodman). There's a more recent critical edition in my uni library, I'll see what they say about it on Monday.

The Revisionsbericht of the Brahms edition claims the autograph manuscript as a source, but it also cites the date of the symphony as 1828 (which we now know to be incorrect), so scholarship has possibly moved on since then.

Quote from: Brian on March 08, 2014, 05:58:33 PM
That said... a decrescendo here would be interpreted as a "mistake" so maybe it is the original intention.

Quote from: amw on March 08, 2014, 06:09:59 PM
Actually weird... I hadn't noticed before, but pretty much every other conductor ignores the decrescendo. Even some of the other HIPpies (Immerseel, Goodman). There's a more recent critical edition in my uni library, I'll see what they say about it on Monday.

The Revisionsbericht of the Brahms edition claims the autograph manuscript as a source, but it also cites the date of the symphony as 1828 (which we now know to be incorrect), so scholarship has possibly moved on since then.

I would be very interested in knowing what you find. I can't locate much info on the internet. But this one chord, and the enigma that is the decrescendo is filling up my head every time I listen to the 9th. Should he be? Or shouldn't he be?  ???

Thanks for the responses, friends!  8)

According to Bärenreiter, as far as my limited German goes (there's no English translation in the edition), Schubert was in the habit of notating accents very inconsistently: >, fz, sf, fp, etc—always putting the >'s below the staff and sometimes writing them large enough that they were indistinguishable from decrescendi. (Of course a decrescendo is often implied anyway since an accent is meant to be louder than other notes in the phrase.) In this case they believe Schubert put a long accent over the second bar of the chord, which is just meant to indicate a... very strong sforzando applying to the entire chord? I don't have any idea really. Anyway, they interpret it as fz and >, no hairpin, and the same is true of the final unison of the String Quintet. And many, many other passages where the original edition put a hairpin.

If they're correct about that, according to NML, I think it would be sort of like what Blomstedt or Zinman do. In case they're not, Celi/Munich, Kubelik/BRSO, Zehetmair/Northern Sinfonia and Nott/Bamberg are keeping their options open.

Quote from: amw on March 09, 2014, 03:52:11 PM
According to Bärenreiter, as far as my limited German goes (there's no English translation in the edition), Schubert was in the habit of notating accents very inconsistently: >, fz, sf, fp, etc—always putting the >'s below the staff and sometimes writing them large enough that they were indistinguishable from decrescendi. (Of course a decrescendo is often implied anyway since an accent is meant to be louder than other notes in the phrase.) In this case they believe Schubert put a long accent over the second bar of the chord, which is just meant to indicate a... very strong sforzando applying to the entire chord? I don't have any idea really. Anyway, they interpret it as fz and >, no hairpin, and the same is true of the final unison of the String Quintet. And many, many other passages where the original edition put a hairpin.

If they're correct about that, according to NML, I think it would be sort of like what Blomstedt or Zinman do. In case they're not, Celi/Munich, Kubelik/BRSO, Zehetmair/Northern Sinfonia and Nott/Bamberg are keeping their options open.

That is very investing. I greatly appreciate you taking the time for this, amw.

Sinfonien / Minkowski

[asin]B008GAXUSK[/asin]

From limited samples of the last movement of the Great C major I heard on NML, this was one of two recordings that stood out for me as being exceptionally interesting. (The other one was Wand/NDR, I don't know how good this is regarded as being but it's old and by a famous guy so draw your own conclusions.) After further sampling I decided I'd just get it. It is take-no-prisoners Schubert, with a tremendous amount of drive, the right doses of majesty and melancholy and excellent command of the larger structure, all played with exceptional clarity. It's a cliché to say you will hear every note, but if there are any notes you don't hear, turn the volume up.

Also: They don't make oboes like this anymore (most of the time anyway). Perhaps for good reason, but I like it.

[audio]http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32084883/2%20Andante%20con%20moto.mp3[/audio]

I always thought of Minkowski has more of a French baroque kind of guy.  Cool beans.  I might check out that set later on down the road.

I listened to the 8th and 9th symphonies today from the Blomstedt/Dresden set.  Great command over dynamic contrast.  And the usual rich, enveloping sound of the Dresden Staatskapelle.  Thumbs up! 8)

Quote from: DavidW on March 15, 2014, 05:21:25 PM
I always thought of Minkowski has more of a French baroque kind of guy.  Cool beans.  I might check out that set later on down the road.

I listened to the 8th and 9th symphonies today from the Blomstedt/Dresden set.  Great command over dynamic contrast.  And the usual rich, enveloping sound of the Dresden Staatskapelle.  Thumbs up! 8)

Minkowski is awesome in many things, from Machaut to Wagner. His Haydn set at the Konzerthaus is superb. Unfortunately his Schubert on that set is a damp squib; the least satisfying recording of his that I know... counting the set as one. It's good, perhaps... but still very disappointing and not being able to hold a candle to, say, Immerseel. A shame; it could have been awesome.

Wand, in Schubert, is the real deal! His Ninth (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001TSWO6/goodmusicguide-20) is one of the best Schubert recordings there are. Ditto his last recording of the 5th (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/03/this-man-should-have-known-suffering.html).

(See also:
This Man Should Have Known Suffering? (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/03/this-man-should-have-known-suffering.html)
Karajan's Uneasy Schubert (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/03/karajans-uneasy-schubert.html)

Well YMMV I guess—I'd pick Minkowski over Immy, though it'd be pretty close. Luckily I don't have to pick, lol. (They are rather different approaches anyway, especially in the last two.)

I still sort of want to hear Wand, I have a feeling he may turn out to be the Schubert "benchmark" everyone else ends up being compared to, inasmuch as one movement of one symphony can tell me anything.

Of the Great C Majors I own, only Klemperer and Celi observe the decrescendo like Harnoncourt. I think it sounds very odd though; it doesn't follow logically the preceding bars and makes an unsatisfactory conclusion. Far better is what Maazel, Dohnányi, and Wand do, concluding with a tremendous whack of the timpani. In most performances that final note just sounds like a continuation of the timpani roll--but that's not how it's written in the score.

HARNONCOURT Concertgebouw
KLEMPERER Philharmonia
CELIBIDACHE Munich Phil
IMMERSEEL Anima Eterna
DAVIS Staatskapelle Dresden
BLOMSTEDT Staatskapelle Dresden
SINOPOLI Staatskapelle Dresden
MAAZEL SOBR
ABBADO COE
DOHNÁNYI Cleveland
FURTWÄNGLER Berlin Phil
ABENDROTH RSO Leipzig
BERNSTEIN Concertgebouw
WAND Berlin Phil
SZELL Cleveland
GIULINI Chicago


Sarge

Today, just marveling and reveling in Schubert's great music for piano duo.

Just to name a handful of greats:

Grand Duo in C major, D 802
Lebenssturme in A minor, D 947
Fantasie in F minor, D 940
**Six Grandes Marches et Trios, D 819

I could name several more, of course.  So many standouts.

**For the 2nd of the six grandes marches and trio, the one in G minor, I swear there is a hint or referencing of Mozart's G minor String Quintet.  Does anybody else detect that?  Well, it is in G minor, but I find it is reminiscent of the opening movement of Mozart's G minor string quintet.

First Listen (to this performance).

Courtesy of Greg Monkfrog!  :)  Hat tip to you, Greg.

Schubert

Symphony No. 9 in C major, D944  'Great'

Norrington
The London Classical Players

[asin]B000005GJ6[/asin]

EMI Classics

Another great performance (courtesy of Greg in Georgia)

Schubert

String Quintet in C major, D956 (first listen to this performance)

Rondo in A major for violin and String Quartet, D438 (first listen to this work!)

[asin]B0000027BY[/asin]

I was blown away by the Trio. Andante Sostenuto from the Scherzo 3rd movement.  It eclipsed my beloved Emerson/Rostropovich recording.  An incredible experience.  The Trio. Andante Sostenuto is, for me, about as beautiful as it gets.  As beautiful as a prairie sunset over a golden wheat field in late summer, before harvest.  It moved me tremendously.

Thanks, Greg!  :)

Sorry, I couldn't seem to find a clearer image.

Quote from: ChamberNut on July 17, 2014, 06:08:48 AM
Another great performance (courtesy of Greg in Georgia)

Schubert

String Quintet in C major, D956 (first listen to this performance)

Rondo in A major for violin and String Quartet, D438 (first listen to this work!)

[asin]B0000027BY[/asin]

I was blown away by the Trio. Andante Sostenuto from the Scherzo 3rd movement.  It eclipsed my beloved Emerson/Rostropovich recording.  An incredible experience.  The Trio: Andante sostenuto is, for me, about as beautiful as it gets.  As beautiful as a prairie sunset over a golden wheat field in late summer, before harvest.  It moved me tremendously.

Thanks, Greg!  :)

Sorry, I couldn't seem to find a clearer image.

Far and away my favorite performance of this work, which is already one of my top Schubert pieces. Performance quality, sound quality, recording engineering all = 10!   0:)

8)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 17, 2014, 06:23:50 AM
Far and away my favorite performance of this work, which is already one of my top Schubert pieces. Performance quality, sound quality, recording engineering all = 10!   0:)

8)

I was blown away Gurn, blown away I tell ya!  :)

Quote from: ChamberNut on July 17, 2014, 06:08:48 AM
Another great performance (courtesy of Greg in Georgia)

Schubert

String Quintet in C major, D956 (first listen to this performance)

Rondo in A major for violin and String Quartet, D438 (first listen to this work!)

I was blown away by the Trio. Andante Sostenuto from the Scherzo 3rd movement.  It eclipsed my beloved Emerson/Rostropovich recording.  An incredible experience.  The Trio. Andante Sostenuto is, for me, about as beautiful as it gets.  As beautiful as a prairie sunset over a golden wheat field in late summer, before harvest.  It moved me tremendously.

Thanks, Greg!  :)

Sorry, I couldn't seem to find a clearer image.

You're welcome, Ray! It's an all around amazing disc! And it is the best Trio on record for sure.

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 17, 2014, 06:33:12 AM
You're welcome, Ray! It's an all around amazing disc! And it is the best Trio on record for sure.

Let this be the truth, please.  My heart could not take anything more beautiful than that.

1. For me, personally, the crème de la crème of all music is late Schubert.

2. Within that, the D.956 Quintet in C is the crème de la crème of late Schubert.

3. And another layer within, those approx. 4.5 minutes of the Scherzo (the Trio. Andante Sostenuto) is the crème de la crème of the D. 956 Quintet.   :)

Have you heard the Petersen/Sanderling recording? This one has a very slow bleak trio section.

Quote from: ChamberNut on July 17, 2014, 09:09:00 AM
1. For me, personally, the crème de la crème of all music is late Schubert.

2. Within that, the D.956 Quintet in C is the crème de la crème of late Schubert.

3. And another layer within, those approx. 4.5 minutes of the Scherzo (the Trio. Andante Sostenuto) is the crème de la crème of the D. 956 Quintet.   :)

(http://tagadavao.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/applause.gif)

Quote from: ChamberNut on July 17, 2014, 06:45:35 AM
Let this be the truth, please.  My heart could not take anything more beautiful than that.

Avert your eyes oh Manitoban ...
http://read.thestar.com/?origref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F#!/article/513cd0957b1eac1e2001c075-brier-northern-ontario-s-brad-jacobs-wins-canadian-men-s-curling-championship (http://read.thestar.com/?origref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F#!/article/513cd0957b1eac1e2001c075-brier-northern-ontario-s-brad-jacobs-wins-canadian-men-s-curling-championship)

:laugh:

Quote from: ChamberNut on July 17, 2014, 09:09:00 AM
1. For me, personally, the crème de la crème of all music is late Schubert.

2. Within that, the D.956 Quintet in C is the crème de la crème of late Schubert.

3. And another layer within, those approx. 4.5 minutes of the Scherzo (the Trio. Andante Sostenuto) is the crème de la crème of the D. 956 Quintet.   :)

Schubert is also Philip Glass's favourite. (Hint hint.)
When you look at what Schubert did in the last 5 years of his life, and what he was doing that was original, ...

Quote from: Ken B on July 17, 2014, 01:12:01 PM
Avert your eyes oh Manitoban ...
http://read.thestar.com/?origref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F#!/article/513cd0957b1eac1e2001c075-brier-northern-ontario-s-brad-jacobs-wins-canadian-men-s-curling-championship (http://read.thestar.com/?origref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F#!/article/513cd0957b1eac1e2001c075-brier-northern-ontario-s-brad-jacobs-wins-canadian-men-s-curling-championship)

:laugh:

:D  The link did not work for me, but I see it is a reference to Brad Jacobs of Northern Ontario defeating Manitoba's Jeff Stoughton in the Brier.

Well, I've always considered Northern Ontario to be a part of Manitoba.  ;D

Quote from: ChamberNut on July 17, 2014, 01:30:13 PM
:D  The link did not work for me, but I see it is a reference to Brad Jacobs of Northern Ontario defeating Manitoba's Jeff Stoughton in the Brier.

Well, I've always considered Northern Ontario to be a part of Manitoba.  ;D

So would I, in your place.  :laugh:

Quote from: ChamberNut on July 17, 2014, 06:45:35 AM
Let this be the truth, please.  My heart could not take anything more beautiful than that.

Show up to my D956 blind comparison (if that's ever going to happen... GMG seems to have completely lost interest in blind comparisons) and you can find out for yourself! ;)

(In fairness L'Archibudelli is also my favourite performance of this movement, and I've listened to about 50 different ones so far >.>)

It's all fictional dialogue, of course, but I like Adolf Eichmann's character in CONSPIRACY making the snarky remarks about Schubert's Quintet in C - fits his personality.   :-X

Quote from: Scion7 on July 18, 2014, 05:56:33 PM
It's all fictional dialogue, of course, but I like Adolf Eichmann's character in CONSPIRACY making the snarky remarks about Schubert's Quintet in C - fits his personality.   :-X

Not such a comfort as it seems. Heydrich was a good violinist who loved Schubert.

Quote from: Scion7 on July 18, 2014, 05:56:33 PM
It's all fictional dialogue, of course, but I like Adolf Eichmann's character in CONSPIRACY making the snarky remarks about Schubert's Quintet in C - fits his personality.   :-X

Quote from: Ken B on July 18, 2014, 07:00:51 PM
Not such a comfort as it seems. Heydrich was a good violinist who loved Schubert.

Hey Guys - Ken's comment above piqued my interest - don't believe that I've seen Conspiracy (a TV film, I believe) - but the mention of Reinhardt Heydrich was of interest - a little about his 'musical pedigree' quoted below from HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Heydrich) - will take a look tonight to see if I can streamed the picture - thanks.  Dave :)

QuoteHeydrich was born in 1904 in Halle an der Saale to composer and opera singer Richard Bruno Heydrich and his wife Elisabeth Anna Maria Amalia Krantz, a Roman Catholic. His two forenames were patriotic musical tributes: "Reinhard" referred to the tragic hero from Amen (an opera his father wrote), and "Tristan" stems from Richard Wagner's Tristan und Isolde. Heydrich's third name, "Eugen", was his late maternal grandfather's forename (Professor Eugen Krantz had been the director of the Dresden Royal Conservatory).Heydrich was born into a family of social standing and substantial financial means. Music was a part of Heydrich's everyday life; his father founded the Halle Conservatory of Music and his mother taught piano there.[9] Heydrich developed a passion for the violin and carried that interest into adulthood; he impressed listeners with his musical talent

Sunday morning Schubert!

Sonata in E flat, D568
Sonata in C minor, D958

Schiff, piano

[asin]B005BLYSQK[/asin]

Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 19, 2014, 06:26:32 AM
Hey Guys - Ken's comment above piqued my interest - don't believe that I've seen Conspiracy (a TV film, I believe) - but the mention of Reinhardt Heydrich was of interest - a little about his 'musical pedigree' quoted below from HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Heydrich) - will take a look tonight to see if I can streamed the picture - thanks.  Dave :)

Every now and then it is worth remembering that no political movement or government was as dominated by artists and aesthetes as nazism. Leading nazis included novelists, painters, musicians, architects. During their rise nazis were also strongest in university towns and amongst the intelligentsia.

Quote from: Ken B on July 20, 2014, 02:11:49 PM
Every now and then it is worth remembering that no political movement or government was as dominated by artists and aesthetes as nazism. Leading nazis included novelists, painters, musicians, architects. During their rise nazis were also strongest in university towns and amongst the intelligentsia.

Well, you know the old and apt adage: such an idiocy, only an intellectual could believe in.  ;D

Quote from: Ken B on July 20, 2014, 02:11:49 PM
Every now and then it is worth remembering that no political movement or government was as dominated by artists and aesthetes as nazism. Leading nazis included novelists, painters, musicians, architects. During their rise nazis were also strongest in university towns and amongst the intelligentsia.

Actually, that's not true.  While yes, many Nazi's were this and that, the LEADING members of National Socialism were almost all thugs and/or non-intellectuals - Hitler, Himmler, Goering, Hess, Bormann, Rohm, Kaltenbrunner, Streicher, Ribbentrop . . . the list goes on and on.  The large majority of German intellectuals shunned the National Socialist movement.  The National Socialist regime was not dominated by those relatively few members who had an IQ higher than that of below-average- Speer being one exception, and less than a third of the population actually joined the party.  And for all of Heydrich's artistic education, he was dedicated to sadism and completely without empathy for his fellow man.  This idea is one of the many "urban myths" about the Nazi movement, and is not supported by the studies of it.

They weren't intellectuals, but most had what would amount to a solid middle class background and education around 1900; Hitler being the main exception.
Even a "thuggish" guy like Roehm had finished the Gymnasium with the "Abitur" (which put him in the top 3-5% as far as a formal education was concerned)

Brilliant Classics Schubert edition (69 cd) - Aug 29

http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00LTQ5EVY/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00LTQ5EVY/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51eCGZhXlDL.jpg)

Quote from: Scion7 on July 21, 2014, 09:33:10 PM
Actually, that's not true.  While yes, many Nazi's were this and that, the LEADING members of National Socialism were almost all thugs and/or non-intellectuals - Hitler, Himmler, Goering, Hess, Bormann, Rohm, Kaltenbrunner, Streicher, Ribbentrop . . . the list goes on and on.  The large majority of German intellectuals shunned the National Socialist movement.  The National Socialist regime was not dominated by those relatively few members who had an IQ higher than that of below-average- Speer being one exception, and less than a third of the population actually joined the party.  And for all of Heydrich's artistic education, he was dedicated to sadism and completely without empathy for his fellow man.  This idea is one of the many "urban myths" about the Nazi movement, and is not supported by the studies of it.

If you say my assertion is false contradict it. You contradict things I did not say. For example I made no statement about *majorities* of any sort. I made no claims about IQ. You are straw-manning.

Just some examples: Hitler, painter. Speer architect. Goebbels novelist. Heydrich, violinist. Hanfstaengl wrote music.  Artistic pretensions are common amongst nazis.

I did note the nazis polled best in University towns during their rise. True. They polled better there than in Bavaria and catholic regions for example.  Evans or Bracher have details. Racial theory, volisch theory etc had real cachet and appeal in the 20s and 30s.

For  aesthetes and backgrounds in the arts, Hitler and the Power of Aesthetics by Spotts.

Quote from: Moonfish on July 22, 2014, 12:05:36 AM
Brilliant Classics Schubert edition (69 cd) - Aug 29

http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00LTQ5EVY/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00LTQ5EVY/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

Cool. I wonder what the lieder will be. That's where the rubber hits the road Schubert-wise.
You know he wrote over 600 lieder, right Peter? In case you are worried about allergies!  :D

Mussolini played the violin.

Quote from: Ken B on July 22, 2014, 05:58:57 AM
Cool. I wonder what the lieder will be. That's where the rubber hits the road Schubert-wise.
You know he wrote over 600 lieder, right Peter? In case you are worried about allergies!  :D

I am getting a rash....    ???

Schubert thoughts of the day...

One of the many things I love about the Great 9th symphony is the way the finale brings the entire work to a close. It doesn't have a "get ready for the ending!" type coda, but rather what feels like a continuation of the exciting previous 10+ minutes. Those low calling half note C's from the strings and various winds in unison do fiercely introduce what will eventually be the bringing of the end, but it doesn't feel disconnected in any way, the tempo stays the same and the brass continue their fanfare up to the rapturous, and brief, final C. I recently did a comparison of my 9 recordings of the ending, it's amazing how different they all were! And Harnoncourt was the only one to use the diminuendo in the end.


I think it was amw that mentioned a string ensemble version of the Adagio from the C major string quintet. I haven't heard that one, but an arrangement that I find to be a huge success is Victor Kissine's of the 15th String Quartet in G major performed by Kremerata Baltica. When comparing the quartet version to this larger-ensemble one it's obvious that it's a true arrangement rather than just handing all the violins, violas and cellos the original parts and adding a bass line. It feels like the quartet was carefully dissected to give each of the musicians (I believe there are 16 in the group) their own purpose and to allow certain harmonies to carry more weight. The added cello and bass is a nice touch, having that extra on the low end adds a bit of muscle. This arrangement also creates more depth to the music, not that Schubert needed it, but it's nice to hear this great piece in a different form and offer a unique quality that is quite different from the quartet version. The Scherzo is a little frightening and eerie with the extra strings, almost like a danse macabre, like it's blowing in night wind.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31XYTHTAGFL._SX300_.jpg)

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 24, 2014, 06:36:54 PM
Schubert thoughts of the day...

One of the many things I love about the Great 9th symphony is the way the finale brings the entire work to a close. It doesn't have a "get ready for the ending!" type coda, but rather what feels like a continuation of the exciting previous 10+ minutes. Those low calling half note C's from the strings and various winds in unison do fiercely introduce what will eventually be the bringing of the end, but it doesn't feel disconnected in any way, the tempo stays the same and the brass continue their fanfare up to the rapturous, and brief, final C. I recently did a comparison of my 9 recordings of the ending, it's amazing how different they all were! And Harnoncourt was the only one to use the diminuendo in the end.


I think it was amw that mentioned a string ensemble version of the Adagio from the C major string quintet. I haven't heard that one, but an arrangement that I find to be a huge success is Victor Kissine's of the 15th String Quartet in G major performed by Kremerata Baltica. When comparing the quartet version to this larger-ensemble one it's obvious that it's a true arrangement rather than just handing all the violins, violas and cellos the original parts and adding a bass line. It feels like the quartet was carefully dissected to give each of the musicians (I believe there are 16 in the group) their own purpose and to allow certain harmonies to carry more weight. The added cello and bass is a nice touch, having that extra on the low end adds a bit of muscle. This arrangement also creates more depth to the music, not that Schubert needed it, but it's nice to hear this great piece in a different form and offer a unique quality that is quite different from the quartet version. The Scherzo is a little frightening and eerie with the extra strings, almost like a danse macabre, like it's blowing in night wind.

Great post, Sir Greg Frogger!  :)

For the 9th, this is my favourite recording of it that I've heard so far.  It was a library check-out from some years ago (I do not actually have it in my collection).  It is Dohnányi conducting the Cleveland Orchestra.  Unfortunately, it seems Dohnányi has only recorded Schubert's 8th and 9th.  I was hoping he would have recorded them all.  :'(

[asin]B00006HMA6[/asin]

I'm going to buy Blomstedt's cycle with Dresden Staatskapelle, looking on Amazon I see three different issues...

Are these the same recordings? If so, any differences in sound quality? Box presentation? Or is this mostly a which cover art do you prefer situation?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51jkMyOPSGL.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51dK7y0lvJL.jpg) 
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51RhKiMaA6L.jpg)

Probably because his Beethoven cycle has the same Berlin Classics reissue.  I have the brilliant classics set of his Schubert symphonies, sound is fine to me.  That is also the cover art I prefer.  The only Schubert centric cover art I like is this:

(http://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/46/36/3760195733646_600.jpg)

That looks awesome!  It makes me tempted to buy it just because the cover art is so cool. ;D

Quote from: DavidW on August 17, 2014, 06:11:06 AM
Probably because his Beethoven cycle has the same Berlin Classics reissue.  I have the brilliant classics set of his Schubert symphonies, sound is fine to me.  That is also the cover art I prefer.  The only Schubert centric cover art I like is this:

(http://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/46/36/3760195733646_600.jpg)

That looks awesome!  It makes me tempted to buy it just because the cover art is so cool. ;D

I remember that feeling. I have yet to play it, though......

Quote from: DavidW on August 17, 2014, 06:11:06 AM
Probably because his Beethoven cycle has the same Berlin Classics reissue.  I have the brilliant classics set of his Schubert symphonies, sound is fine to me.  That is also the cover art I prefer. 

Thank you, David!

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 16, 2014, 12:56:58 PM
I'm going to buy Blomstedt's cycle with Dresden Staatskapelle,

  So...did you get it?  I'm listening to it now, and I couldn't be more delighted. I'm just re-listening to disk one, the immature boy's 1st and 2nd symphonies.  Wonderful (it's a Saturday afternoon and I'm playing it loudly, which doesn't hurt anything).  At the beginning of this thread people were talking about "not being able to get into" the symphonies, and I'm really surprised.  I find them fresh, powerful, and invigorating. The only other set I have is Harnoncourt, which I also like a lot. Maybe there are other, older sets that are less enjoyable?

Quote from: Baklavaboy on September 20, 2014, 01:08:14 AM
  So...did you get it?  I'm listening to it now, and I couldn't be more delighted. I'm just re-listening to disk one, the immature boy's 1st and 2nd symphonies.  Wonderful (it's a Saturday afternoon and I'm playing it loudly, which doesn't hurt anything).  At the beginning of this thread people were talking about "not being able to get into" the symphonies, and I'm really surprised.  I find them fresh, powerful, and invigorating. The only other set I have is Harnoncourt, which I also like a lot. Maybe there are other, older sets that are less enjoyable?

I completely agree with you. I started to listen to the Blomstedt cycle as well (symph 3 & 4) and found them very inviting and rich in terms of both sound and performance. Dipping further into the Brilliant box and found myself pleasantly surprised (mostly) as the journey continues. Right now (on my own Saturday afternoon time zone) I am enjoying the Violin Sonatas on disc 7.  :)

Quote from: Moonfish on September 20, 2014, 02:20:10 PM
I completely agree with you. I started to listen to the Blomstedt cycle as well (symph 3 & 4) and found them very inviting and rich in terms of both sound and performance. Dipping further into the Brilliant box and found myself pleasantly surprised (mostly) as the journey continues. Right now (on my own Saturday afternoon time zone) I am enjoying the Violin Sonatas on disc 7.  :)

  Several hours later, I have joined you :)  Not really morning coffee music, but first track is very promising.

Quote from: Baklavaboy on September 20, 2014, 01:08:14 AM
  So...did you get it?  I'm listening to it now, and I couldn't be more delighted. I'm just re-listening to disk one, the immature boy's 1st and 2nd symphonies.  Wonderful (it's a Saturday afternoon and I'm playing it loudly, which doesn't hurt anything).  At the beginning of this thread people were talking about "not being able to get into" the symphonies, and I'm really surprised.  I find them fresh, powerful, and invigorating. The only other set I have is Harnoncourt, which I also like a lot. Maybe there are other, older sets that are less enjoyable?

Sorry for the late reply...I did get the Blomstedt set, and yes it's great. I love the full-bodied sound of Dresden Staatskapelle, and I really like the tempos. I still have the Harnoncourt and Immerseel sets as my two favorites, but this Blomstedt is really a great addition, and could easily be considered as a rec for any listeners first Schubert set.

I need to revisit the 1st and 2nd symphonies. I plead guilty in starting with the 3rd most of the time.  :(

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 21, 2014, 05:35:58 PM
Sorry for the late reply...I did get the Blomstedt set, and yes it's great. I love the full-bodied sound of Dresden Staatskapelle, and I really like the tempos. I still have the Harnoncourt and Immerseel sets as my two favorites, but this Blomstedt is really a great addition, and could easily be considered as a rec for any listeners first Schubert set.

I need to revisit the 1st and 2nd symphonies. I plead guilty in starting with the 3rd most of the time.  :(

Ha ha! I start with the 3rd all the time as well!  :D

Quote from: Baklavaboy on September 20, 2014, 05:23:19 PM
  Several hours later, I have joined you :)  Not really morning coffee music, but first track is very promising.

I was not too familiar with the violin sonatas so they came across well in my ears!  ;)

Quote from: Moonfish on September 21, 2014, 05:42:10 PM
Ha ha! I start with the 3rd all the time as well!  :D

I blame it on Wiener/Kleiber's recording of Nos. 3 and 8 on DG, that disc got me hooked on No. 3.

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 21, 2014, 05:44:16 PM
I blame it on Wiener/Kleiber's recording of Nos. 3 and 8 on DG, that disc got me hooked on No. 3.

  Some years ago I got the Harnoncourt on MP3 and just played it as a loop through my computer speakers.  As a result, they all linked in my mind as a sort of  giant 4-hour symphony.   

A 2,000 + page edition with commentary on Schubert's Lieder has been published by Graham Johnson.

Here are excerpts from the review by Matthew Gurewitsch from the December 13th/14th, 2014  Wall Street Journal :

QuoteIn a foreword to the first volume of "Franz Schubert: The Complete Songs," Mr. Johnson offers a brief and charming self-portrait that is lightly Proustian in sensibility and discreetly Joycean in its wordplay. As a 10-year-old, he tells us, he "unsuccessfully partnered an equally young violinist in the D major Sonatina D384. Our lack of ensemble drove the violin teacher, the late Richard Thorn, to a state of despair. For years afterwards his name was linked in my mind with the difficulty of the composer's music and the insuperable challenges of accompanying. Like the boy pricked by the rose in Heidenröslein D257, I realized that certain things in life must be learned from scratch."...

Take this passage on the late song "Der Zwerg," the subject of Mr. Johnson's final alphabetical entry. A queen, a homicidal dwarf, a ship adrift at sea: The elements are in place for a brutal vignette from "Game of Thrones," but what Schubert delivers is the apotheosis and ultimate sublimation of the Gothic genre that he had been cultivating from his teens.

"The spirit of Beethoven, brandishing the rhythm of Fate from the C minor Symphony Op. 67, is blatantly evident at the forte outburst of [bars] 80-81, but this motif has quietly pervaded the accompaniment from the beginning," Mr. Johnson writes. (The rhythm of fate—"da da da dum!"—has just about invaded our DNA; see Matthew Guerrieri 's dazzling 2012 study, "The First Four Notes: Beethoven's Fifth and the Human Imagination.") "Here it is both erotic (as in the Suleika song [a sublime Persian-scented love lyric]) and associated with destiny, as in Beethoven. If Der Zwerg dates from the end of 1822 or later—about the time Schubert discovered his illness—it is no surprise that sexual desire and death are woven more closely together, and more destructively, than in any of his other songs." Throughout these volumes, whether the subject is the piano part or the vocal part or the interplay between the two, the nuts and bolts never come before us for their own sake but only as they shed light on Schubert's art.

See:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/book-review-franz-schubert-the-complete-songs-by-graham-johnson-1418423518?KEYWORDS=Schubert (http://www.wsj.com/articles/book-review-franz-schubert-the-complete-songs-by-graham-johnson-1418423518?KEYWORDS=Schubert)

Good news! But one need to log in on the WSJ link..... :'(

Quote from: The new erato on December 14, 2014, 11:19:17 AM
Good news! But one need to log in on the WSJ link..... :'(

Let me see what I can do about that!

Here is the entire review of the encyclopedic book by Graham Johnson about the Lieder: found in the Wall Street Journal cited above.

While he lived, the schoolmaster's son Franz Schubert made no great splash in the world. Intimates called him Schwammerl, or Mushroom, supposedly because he was small and round. His occasional travels never took him more than 200 miles from his native Vienna. Before his death, much of his music was played only at private gatherings or not at all. Yet the catalog of symphonies, piano sonatas, chamber music and sacred works he brought forth in his brief 31 years—four years fewer than Mozart's, 26 fewer than Beethoven's—places him well and truly in the company of the immortals. Arguably most impressive of all is his legacy of song, inexhaustible in its Shakespearean variety, upward of 700 items, each, to the mind of Graham Johnson, "a law unto itself."

Within that phrase lies the raison d'être of Mr. Johnson's three-volume, 2,800-page study "Franz Schubert: The Complete Songs," an encyclopedia in all but name, informed as much by practical musicianship as by musicology and academic research. Organized alphabetically, the volumes offer an entry for each song, with full German text and Richard Wigmore's sturdy English translation; a biography for of each of Schubert's 120-plus poets; portraits of the composer's Tolstoyan circle of friends and associates; and some three dozen monographs on general topics, ranging from accompaniment, chronology and dedicatees to pedaling, publishers, tonality and transposition. There is also a full complement of erudite appendices, among them "A Schubert Song Calendar," placing the songs against a timeline of Schubert's life. The wealth of illustrations range from the familiar to the rarest of the rare.

FRANZ SCHUBERT: THE COMPLETE SONGS

By Graham Johnson
Yale, 2,820 pages, $300

While Mr. Johnson's judgments in contentious matters strike balances worthy of Solomon, his voice is consistently personal, energetic and full of surprises. Here is a man who can effect a seamless segue from Rimbaud the symbolist poet to Rambo the action hero, drop an apt quote from Woody Allen, and grant the genius of Goethe without glossing over his longueurs. Mr. Johnson knows where to find a guitar arrangement of Schubert's bleak song cycle "Winterreise," as well as (more improbably still) a swing version of "Der Leiermann," the sequence's last and most disconsolate song. And he remembers, because he was there, the recording session when the perfectionist American baritone Thomas Hampson threw a music stand across the studio in a fit of self-criticism.

Acknowledging that his maximum opus required a small army of helping hands, Mr. Johnson writes: "None of us perhaps realized how much work was involved in preparing and proofing such a detailed encyclopaedia, especially when written by a travelling accompanist rather than a team of full-time scholars"—a traveling accompanist, be it said, who not only maintains a punishing concert schedule but also serves as senior professor of accompaniment at the Guildhall School of Music and Drama in London.

Well, no one will accuse Mr. Johnson of having rushed into print. The work now at hand crowns a project that he has been working on for the better part of three decades. In the beginning came the Hyperion Schubert Edition (1987-99), the first comprehensive survey of the songs ever recorded, with Mr. Johnson in charge throughout as casting and programming director, accompanist, and author of the uncommonly informative liner notes.

Lending the Schubert venture instant and much-needed credibility, the national treasure Janet Baker signed on for the inaugural release, an anthology of settings of Goethe and Schiller, the twin pillars of German classicism. The international galaxy of singers who gravitated to Hyperion in her wake, some 50 in all, included stars at their zenith (Thomas Allen, Elly Ameling, Arleen Auger, Lucia Popp, Margaret Price); new planets just then swimming into view (Ian Bostridge, Matthias Goerne, Simon Keenlyside, Christopher Maltman, Christine Schäfer); and the quartet of trailblazers with whom Mr. Johnson had founded the ensemble known as the Songmakers' Almanac (Felicity Lott, Ann Murray, Anthony Rolfe Johnson, Richard Jackson).

In its way, the note on Ms. Baker's opening track, the first of Schubert's three settings of "Der Jüngling am Bache," was as prophetic as her program. The dulcet pastorale of a pensive youth by a brook—"in effect Schubert's first song," Mr. Johnson argues, though it was preceded by some unwieldy student exercises—prompted references to Mozart (Schubert's idol), Salieri (Schubert's teacher) and the 15-year-old composer's purposeful departures from strophic form (varying the melody from stanza to stanza without losing sight of its primary contour). The implicit themes of influence, craftsmanship and invention would continue to reverberate throughout Mr. Johnson's commentaries.

A model of concision, the little essay on "Der Jüngling am Bache" filled slightly less than one page in a thin booklet of 24. But as the recording series grew, so did Mr. Johnson's texts. Over the years his collateral essays touched on Schubert's family background, his schooling, the musical models he studied and left in the dust, the women in his life and also the men, his religious attitudes, his phenomenal industry, his unrealized ambitions, his vast reading (despite a lack of money to buy books), and also the venereal infection that in 1828 was to claim his life. Farther afield, Mr. Johnson dealt with repressive politics in Schubert's Vienna, innovations in piano construction, stylistic evolution in the performance of Schubert's songs and much else. In time, the booklets bulked up to the point that new packaging had to be designed to make room for them. Mr. Johnson's notes for the final release, which included the posthumous cycle "Schwanengesang" and other masterpieces from Schubert's last year, ran to no fewer than 112 pages.

If only in hopes of a larger point size, the clamor for publication of the notes in book form started even before the last volumes were in the can—and the task proved to be Herculean. Scholarship marches on; minutiae of all sorts had to be brought up to date. And topics as yet untouched or only glanced at the first time around required full-dress essays of their own. There were losses, too. No logic could justify a program-specific meditation like "Death and the Composer" or a fantasia on all the music Schubert never lived to write. Happily, those haunting occasional pieces may be found on the Hyperion website.

Born in Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) in 1950, trained at the Royal Academy of Music in London and in private study with such distinguished accompanists as Gerald Moore and Geoffrey Parsons, Mr. Johnson stands in the very front ranks of what aspirational contemporary usage often dubs "collaborative pianists." (Not, as he dryly points out, that their fees have improved as a result.)

In a foreword to the first volume of "Franz Schubert: The Complete Songs," Mr. Johnson offers a brief and charming self-portrait that is lightly Proustian in sensibility and discreetly Joycean in its wordplay. As a 10-year-old, he tells us, he "unsuccessfully partnered an equally young violinist in the D major Sonatina D384. Our lack of ensemble drove the violin teacher, the late Richard Thorn, to a state of despair. For years afterwards his name was linked in my mind with the difficulty of the composer's music and the insuperable challenges of accompanying. Like the boy pricked by the rose in Heidenröslein D257, I realized that certain things in life must be learned from scratch."

Young Graham found Schubert "less satisfying than Mozart and Beethoven, a bit of both, and yet neither." His elders assured the boy that he would understand Schubert better when he grew up. "In the meantime this composer, like the birds and bees, was an adult mystery and a special case," he continues; "one could hear this in the irritating way the grown-ups referred to him as if his very name were surrounded by a halo." Yet the theme that played on the radio for the classical-request radio program "Let's Be Serious" always struck a chord. Only years later, in England, would Mr. Johnson discover that it was that evergreen Schubert apostrophe to music, "An die Musik," played by his future mentor Gerald Moore in his own solo arrangement.

"On looking back," Mr. Johnson writes, "it is as if Schubert and one of his great interpreters were calling for my attention, tapping gently on the windowpane, without my being able to recognize either of them, much less guess how huge their importance would be later in my life." So huge as to have marked him out to shoulder sole authorship of this indispensable encyclopedia. That an incidental autobiography of such quality runs through the pages only draws us deeper into Schubert's web.

The temptation to quote Mr. Johnson in extenso is overwhelming, but for now snippets will have to do. Here he is on "Gretchen am Spinnrade," set to a delirious monologue from the heroine of Goethe's "Faust" when the composer was all of 17. "From that moment in October 1814 when Schubert decided to imitate the sound of Gretchen's spinning wheel with a whirring, pianistic clatter, the lied was altered forever," he writes. "This piano writing was both mechanical and emotional—the unifying moto perpetuo of a spinning wheel running out of control and, with it, a young girl's life." Like the song, the prose takes the breath away.

Even where the technical analysis drills down to the particulars of words and music, the narrative flow sweeps the reader along. Take this passage on the late song "Der Zwerg," the subject of Mr. Johnson's final alphabetical entry. A queen, a homicidal dwarf, a ship adrift at sea: The elements are in place for a brutal vignette from "Game of Thrones," but what Schubert delivers is the apotheosis and ultimate sublimation of the Gothic genre that he had been cultivating from his teens.

"The spirit of Beethoven, brandishing the rhythm of Fate from the C minor Symphony Op. 67, is blatantly evident at the forte outburst of [bars] 80-81, but this motif has quietly pervaded the accompaniment from the beginning," Mr. Johnson writes. (The rhythm of fate—"da da da dum!"—has just about invaded our DNA; see Matthew Guerrieri 's dazzling 2012 study, "The First Four Notes: Beethoven's Fifth and the Human Imagination.") "Here it is both erotic (as in the Suleika song [a sublime Persian-scented love lyric]) and associated with destiny, as in Beethoven. If Der Zwerg dates from the end of 1822 or later—about the time Schubert discovered his illness—it is no surprise that sexual desire and death are woven more closely together, and more destructively, than in any of his other songs." Throughout these volumes, whether the subject is the piano part or the vocal part or the interplay between the two, the nuts and bolts never come before us for their own sake but only as they shed light on Schubert's art.

"There is no shortcut to getting to know Schubert's songs," Mr. Johnson writes early on; "it is perhaps best to tackle the task slowly, over a number of years." A few pages later, he adds, unnecessarily, that his work was "clearly not designed to be read cover to cover." Perhaps not, but it is very, very hard to put down.

Thanks for posting the review complete.

Quote from: The new erato on December 15, 2014, 09:46:28 PM
Thanks for posting the review complete.

He didn't! He posted an excerpt short enough to count as fair use!!

Quote from: Cato on December 15, 2014, 06:42:09 AM
Here is the entire review of the encyclopedic book by Graham Johnson about the Lieder: found in the Wall Street Journal cited above.

Thanks, Cato. I've been waiting eagerly for this book ever since acquiring the Hyperion box set. It appears I'll be waiting considerably longer, though. The price is prohibitive.

Sarge

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 16, 2014, 05:30:56 AM
Thanks, Cato. I've been waiting eagerly for this book ever since acquiring the Hyperion box set. It appears I'll be waiting considerably longer, though. The price is prohibitive.

Sarge

Maybe you could put in a request at your local library?  Might get lucky. 

Quote from: Mookalafalas on December 16, 2014, 05:34:05 AM
Maybe you could put in a request at your local library?  Might get lucky.

I doubt a small city German library would spend that kind of money on a book in English. Maybe, though. Worth checking out.

Sarge

Quote from: Mookalafalas on December 16, 2014, 05:34:05 AM
Maybe you could put in a request at your local library?  Might get lucky.

? Librarians are turned on by book requests?
Besides, Sarge is married.

You probably know that you can get a library card for university libraries free of charge; I do not know how far Heidelberg or Kaiserslautern are from your place. An interlibrary loan (Fernleihe) is usually about 1,50-3 EUR, though, and you have to read rather quickly or photocopy the book, because they often are only for a week or two.

Quote from: Ken B on December 16, 2014, 05:44:32 AM
? Librarians are turned on by book requests?
Besides, Sarge is married.

Yes, but Mrs. Sarge could have been a librarian, we don't know...  >:D

8)

Ian Bostridge has written a book on Schubert's Winterreise.  The Jan. 24/25 Wall Street Journal has a nice review of it.

Some excerpts:

QuoteMr. Bostridge has been singing "Winterreise" for three decades. He has also made a film about it and discussed it in lectures, and now he has written "Schubert's Winter Journey: Anatomy of an Obsession." A former scholar with a background in the humanities, Mr. Bostridge currently teaches at Oxford and is well-positioned to undertake such a study. "Schubert's Winter Journey" is an unusual and compelling book: Omnivorous and digressive, it captures the enduring mystery of this seminal work in the lieder tradition. Readers who love "Winterreise" will find the book a rare treat, and those who do not yet know the piece have here a fine companion as they listen. In this age of faceless MP3 files, this handsome volume may be thought of as a luxurious set of liner notes...

Mr. Bostridge's book explores the cultural history of "Winterreise" more than the work's musical structure. He pays due homage to Schubert's modern champion, the recently departed German baritone Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, and addresses some of the controversies in recent Schubert scholarship. ...

Mr. Bostridge takes the reader on a tour of "Winterreise" esoterica. His interests tend toward the literary; hence he touches on topical German giants like Goethe and Thomas Mann but also ranges wider, to Proust and J.M. Coetzee. A chapter on "The Crow" explores that bird's symbolism in Alfred Hitchcock's films and Caspar David Friedrich's paintings. The chapter on "On the River," a mordant song about a frozen stream, begins delightfully thus: "During the early nineteenth century rivers of ice, in the sublime form of Alpine glaciers, were a subject of enormous interest to the European intellectual world."...

Suffering can produce the greatest art. One thinks of Beethoven's late quartets and sonatas, and especially of Herbert Howells's devastating "Hymnus Paradisi." Written after the death of Howells's young son in 1935, it was kept locked away for years because the composer could not bear to hear it....

My emphasis above: I found the choice of the Hymnus Paradisi interesting, simply because the author of the review used the word "especially" with the assumption that the average reader/classical music listener would know of the work.  It is a good choice, and if "one" does not know the work, let me recommend it.


See:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/book-review-schuberts-winter-journey-by-ian-bostridge-1422049330 (http://www.wsj.com/articles/book-review-schuberts-winter-journey-by-ian-bostridge-1422049330)

There's a lecture by Bostridge from Oxford about his ideas about Winterreise on youtube. I will get the book I'm sure, but not yet (that reminds me of a prayer by Augustine.)

Quote from: Mandryka on January 24, 2015, 07:30:01 AM
There's a lecture by Bostridge from Oxford about his ideas about Winterreise on youtube. I will get the book I'm sure, but not yet (that reminds me of a prayer by Augustine.)

Thanks for the information: here is the link.

https://www.youtube.com/v/YuEapI4dEBQ

Did Schubert recycle the melody from his "Litanei" anywhere else? I swear I've heard it before in an instrumental (maybe orchestral) version, but I haven't listened to many of the Schubert songs.

Maybe you've heard one of the transcriptions by Liszt (S562) or Godowsky.

Quote from: BachQ on April 25, 2008, 04:01:05 PM
Speaking of diversity, I wish Schubert had composed a piano concerto or violin concerto ..........

This is a very old quote and you possibly know this but I'd like to point out that Schubert did compose Conzertstück for violin and orchestra which is probably the closest he ever got to writing a violin concerto... And that piece is actually a very good composition.

Quote from: Alberich on October 17, 2015, 11:31:38 AM
This is a very old quote and you possibly know this but I'd like to point out that Schubert did compose Conzertstück for violin and orchestra which is probably the closest he ever got to writing a violin concerto... And that piece is actually a very good composition.

Alas, D345 has nothing to do with concerto. It does not have a sonata form's repetition or development ...

Really? It's been a while since I heard the piece so I must have forgotten that. Thanks for the info!

A "Konzertstück" does not have to follow sonata form or any other strict model. It only needs a concertante solo part for a solo instrument. If you take Beethoven's "Violinromanzen" or other shortish concertante pieces from Spohr, Mendelssohn, Saint-Saens they will often not be in sonata form either.
(Don't remember that Schubert piece well enough to say anything about it.)

I've spent a fair amount of time lamenting the early death of Schubert, as have many. Would have, could have, should have, yet one thought never escapes me. His final 18 months were possibly as fruitful as any 18 months of any composer in history. Had he not been staring death in the face and writing like a man possessed, the quality of his late works may have been affected. It's fun to imagine a Schubert concerto or 10, yet a pointless thought. Had he been blessed with longer life, his late works may have been altered, or....as unlikely as it seems.....completely unwritten. He did grace the world with an amazing catalog of music and I try to focus on this with respect. Not regret.

Quote from: Brian on October 16, 2015, 09:06:12 AM
Did Schubert recycle the melody from his "Litanei" anywhere else? I swear I've heard it before in an instrumental (maybe orchestral) version, but I haven't listened to many of the Schubert songs.

Don't know

Is there a musical relation between Schoenberg's second quartet and Schubert's Litanei? I know they used the same text, but am I right to think there's a musical reference too?

The text in the Schoenberg quartet is by his contemporary Stefan George and has nothing to do (except the title and a vague religious association) with the Text set by Schubert.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_Quartets_%28Schoenberg%29#String_Quartet_No._2

I am not aware that the melody from D 343 "Litanei auf das Fest Allerseelen" (litany for All Souls Day) was used in an instrumental Schubert work, but it might well be the case.

The most famous re-usings of Lied melodies in Schubert are "The trout", "Death and Maiden", "Trockne Blumen" (flute variations), "Der Wanderer" (eponymous Fantasy) and "Sei mir gegruesst" (Violin fantasy). There are a probably few more (e.g. the variation in the octet are based on some song from an obscure Singspiel) and also a few re-usings of instrumental themes, the most famous of which is the "Rosamunde" andante in that quartet which stems from an incidental music.

Quote from: El Chupacabra on October 18, 2015, 04:21:40 AM
Alas, D345 has nothing to do with concerto. It does not have a sonata form's repetition or development ...

By this token, Liszt´s piano concertos have nothing to do with concerto. They don´t have a sonata form´s repetition or development...

Your idea of a concerto sounds rather narrow and shallow.  ;D ;D ;D

 ....and what really matters is how the composer marries the soloist with the ensemble. Chopin for example, struggled to do this so what we should look at is how Schubert fared in this regard.

Quote from: Holden on October 18, 2015, 11:07:18 AM
....and what really matters is how the composer marries the soloist with the ensemble. Chopin for example, struggled to do this

Care to expand on this, please?

Quote from: Florestan on October 18, 2015, 11:09:43 AM
Care to expand on this, please?

I'll start by saying Chopin's Piano Concertos are nothing more than exhibitions for piano with the orchestra accompanying them in a minor roll. I do enjoy them for their melodies and their craft but would never hold them in higher regard. Chopin did express his limited knowledge of orchestration and this serves well as context. I'll defer to others for their opinions.

Thanks Three Putt. I was going to reply to Florestan's query about my post but you've answered this better than I could have.

Quote from: Holden on October 18, 2015, 11:07:18 AM
....and what really matters is how the composer marries the soloist with the ensemble. Chopin for example, struggled to do this so what we should look at is how Schubert fared in this regard.

Don't forget that in those days, pianists were said to perform chamber works. If you want to know how Schubert marries the soloist (viz. the pianist) with the ensemble, you only have to look at the Trout Quintet (or indeed the Piano Trios).

Quote from: Ten thumbs on October 22, 2015, 02:33:25 AM
Don't forget that in those days, pianists were said to perform chamber works. If you want to know how Schubert marries the soloist (viz. the pianist) with the ensemble, you only have to look at the Trout Quintet (or indeed the Piano Trios).

Trout Quintet is a great example of interweaving the piano and ensemble, without truly spotlighting a single instrument. It is, after all, a piano quintet so the obvious leanings would go that way. I have to believe a piano concerto from Schubert would have been sublime. He had Mozart his idol, and some massive concertos from LvB to draw inspiration from. If you draw parallels between Schubert and Schumann, you'll hear how Schumann progressed from Quintet (1842) to Concerto (1845) and can imagine a similar path from Schubert. Seeing how Schumann's works are considered all-time greats, while Schubert's PQ is mentioned often during discussions of "greatest ever", I find it hard to doubt a later concerto from Franz would have been a top shelf work. If given the chance to write 5, as did Beethoven, I can't help think Schubert's may have been mentioned amongst the finest ever as well. As this is all speculation, I'll now listen to Schumann's PQ, as existing works tend to sound better than speculative ones.

Quote from: Mr. Three Putt on October 22, 2015, 04:36:20 AM
Trout Quintet is a great example of interweaving the piano and ensemble, without truly spotlighting a single instrument.

Schubert used Hummel's Op 74. as a model to D667

Comparison/influence question:

Is there a relationship or connection with Beethoven's Six German Dances for violin and piano, WoO42, and Schubert's Symphony No. 2 in B flat, D125?

Specifically, between the 5th and 6th German dance four note theme, and the 2nd theme (four note theme) found in Schubert's 3rd movement Menuetto: Allegro Vivace of his 2nd symphony?

:-\

Quote from: Mr. Three Putt on October 18, 2015, 07:44:11 PM
I'll start by saying Chopin's Piano Concertos are nothing more than exhibitions for piano with the orchestra accompanying them in a minor roll. I do enjoy them for their melodies and their craft but would never hold them in higher regard. Chopin did express his limited knowledge of orchestration and this serves well as context. I'll defer to others for their opinions.

Though this subject was hashed out already on GMG, I personally would not change a note of any of Chopin's piano and orchestra works.

Quote from: zamyrabyrd on October 31, 2015, 10:17:58 AM
Though this subject was hashed out already on GMG, I personally would not change a note of any of Chopin's piano and orchestra works.

Amen, sister!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51b2PZWVIsL._SX331_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

Anyone read this?

What's the verdict on the brilliant classics Schubert box? I'd be mainly interested in the 13 disks of songs. Who are the artists for these?

Just read through the whole thread and it's interesting how JdP was talking about "getting over Schubert's melodies" and discovering "nothing to get back to".

Because it seems I finally got over Schubert's melodies and.. discovered he might be one of my favourite composers. I'm sure my recent sorrowful experience has something to do with it as well, but the way Schubert illustrates the human condition just speaks to me on a whole new level these days. Navneeth cited a great quote by Anner Bylsma:

QuoteSchubert is a man on his way to the gallows, unable to stop telling his friends how incomparably beautiful life is -- and how simple.

Word. Plus he sounds so damn effortless about it, like a kid leading you on a path to a wonderful, secluded garden, and you think he might've repeatedly missed the right turn but then look, you're already there! You've been there all the time! Schubert's songs are an inspiration, his chamber music a balm on the soul. I've yet to give the symphonies a thorough listen (I've got the Immerseel set) but looking forward to hearing what he managed in the grander arrangements.

Any book recommendations on his life and work? I've got Bostridge's Winterreise wishlisted and the Mysterium Magnum looks appealing (except for the atrocious cover), but I'd like a solid biography to start with.

Quote from: Mr. Three Putt on October 22, 2015, 04:36:20 AM
Trout Quintet is a great example of interweaving the piano and ensemble, without truly spotlighting a single instrument. It is, after all, a piano quintet so the obvious leanings would go that way. I have to believe a piano concerto from Schubert would have been sublime. He had Mozart his idol, and some massive concertos from LvB to draw inspiration from. If you draw parallels between Schubert and Schumann, you'll hear how Schumann progressed from Quintet (1842) to Concerto (1845) and can imagine a similar path from Schubert. Seeing how Schumann's works are considered all-time greats, while Schubert's PQ is mentioned often during discussions of "greatest ever", I find it hard to doubt a later concerto from Franz would have been a top shelf work. If given the chance to write 5, as did Beethoven, I can't help think Schubert's may have been mentioned amongst the finest ever as well. As this is all speculation, I'll now listen to Schumann's PQ, as existing works tend to sound better than speculative ones.

The "interweaving of piano and ensemble" plus the rather non-operatic spirit of Schubert's is precisely why i wouldn't expect a piano concerto from him if he lived longer, at least not in the heroic piano against the orchestra mold.
One thing I couldn't fail to notice, particularly in his songs, is the extent of expressive detail. This doesn't contradict his craftsmanship in his larger works or as compared to any other composer of vocal music, say Verdi, who painted in larger strokes but was also scrupulously attentive to detail. Schubert is one of those composers when you think you "got it", there is probably some other nuance you overlooked, even after studying and hearing the same pieces over a long period.

An interesting bit of trivia:
Schubert music has been used in the soundtrack of 601 movies....
One can safely say that his music has remained at the center of the western world culture.

Did you get that fact from Wikipedia?
Remember, even Wiki states at the start of their online 'encyclopedia' that it is not reliable (anyone can edit it, anyone can misrepresent the Sources they use to write it, there are plenty of miscreants creating false information and pushing their own agendas on there with the references only checked by the dedicated few.)

Was it from an album sleeve not/booklet?

While possible, that number seems a bit high, and also how was it determined in the first place?
Thousands of films exist - I strongly doubt anyone actually did a survey.

I've heard Schubert's music in several movies, but I would be wary of a six-hundred films claim.
Anyway, that's my 2 bob on it.

Quote from: Scion7 on April 10, 2016, 12:34:15 PM
Did you get that fact from Wikipedia?
Remember, even Wiki states at the start of their online 'encyclopedia' that it is not reliable (anyone can edit it, anyone can misrepresent the Sources they use to write it, there are plenty of miscreants creating false information and pushing their own agendas on there with the references only checked by the dedicated few.)

Was it from an album sleeve not/booklet?

While possible, that number seems a bit high, and also how was it determined in the first place?
Thousands of films exist - I strongly doubt anyone actually did a survey.

I've heard Schubert's music in several movies, but I would be wary of a six-hundred films claim.
Anyway, that's my 2 bob on it.

I got it from Imdb:  Franz Schubert is listed as a film music composer, believe it or not.  601 sounds like a lot, but if a Schubert tune is enough to count, its believable.  Anyway, there has bee so many movies produced..  Just for the French movies, I can cite 20 with some Schubert in them right off the top of my head.  That alone tells me that Schubert has had an immense impact on me....

Does anyone have a copy of Maynard Solomon's "Franz Schubert and the Peacocks of Benvenuto Cellini" that they could let me have?

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Schubert's Great C major Symphony[2] is a challenge for a "REsound" project, since the only place it 'sounded', in Schubert's time, was in his head...

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#2 Ives: http://bit.ly/Forbes_Best_Classical_Recordings_2016_New
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(https://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2017/12/Forbes_CD-Review_Schubert_Gerhaher-Huber_GerhaherHuber_Muellerin_SONY_Laurson_960.jpg?width=960)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/12/05/review-oh-only-the-best-schone-mullerin-ever/#535b615f632c (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/12/05/review-oh-only-the-best-schone-mullerin-ever/#535b615f632c)

and a review of a fascinating concert:

Review: Visiting Nazgûl - An Evening Of Late Schumann And Darker Schubert
(https://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2017/12/Caspar-David-Friedrich_Meeresstrand-im-Nebel_Classical_Critic_jfl.jpg?width=960)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/12/01/review-visiting-nazgul-an-evening-of-late-schumann-and-darker-schubert/#7d6043f623a9 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/12/01/review-visiting-nazgul-an-evening-of-late-schumann-and-darker-schubert/#7d6043f623a9)

Trout Mutter



Review: A Dress, Two Stars And A Trout "Electric-Eclectic"
(https://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2018/01/Forbes_CD-Review_Schubert_MUTTER_TRIFONOV_Trout_DG_Laurson_960-1.jpg?width=960)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/01/11/review-a-dress-two-stars-and-a-trout-electric-eclectic/#6f8aff6d3132 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/01/11/review-a-dress-two-stars-and-a-trout-electric-eclectic/#6f8aff6d3132)

Is there any documentation or analysis on why Schubert went so flute-crazy in his Sixth Symphony?

Quote from: Scion7 on April 10, 2016, 12:34:15 PM
Did you get that fact from Wikipedia?
Remember, even Wiki states at the start of their online 'encyclopedia' that it is not reliable (anyone can edit it, anyone can misrepresent the Sources they use to write it, there are plenty of miscreants creating false information and pushing their own agendas on there with the references only checked by the dedicated few.)

Was it from an album sleeve not/booklet?

While possible, that number seems a bit high, and also how was it determined in the first place?
Thousands of films exist - I strongly doubt anyone actually did a survey.

I've heard Schubert's music in several movies, but I would be wary of a six-hundred films claim.
Anyway, that's my 2 bob on it.

Seems like a claim so insignificant it is not worth lying about.

(https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/960x0/smart/https%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Fjenslaurson%2Ffiles%2F2018%2F04%2FForbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_SCHUBERT_Zimerman_DG_Piano-Sonatas_Classical-Critic-Jens-F-Laurson-960.jpg)
Classical CD Of The Week: Krystian Zimerman's New Schubert

Like a decennial musical Santa, Krystian Zimerman drops a solo record every ten-ish years. The anticipation is understandably great, the result, in this case, too! (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/04/04/classical-cd-of-the-week_krystian_zimerman_dg_schubert/)

(https://images.store.hmv.com/app_/responsive/HMVStore/media/product/440416/01-440416.jpg?w=500)

QuoteFirst movement, Allegro [of 958]: the first bars are similar to Beethoven's Thirty-two Variations in C minor (eight bars of implacable logic). But Schubert, in bar 7, immobilises the harmonic situation, and then sets out on another path, attracted, as he so often is, by unexpected prospects, before belatedly concluding the phrase at bar 21. The apparent serenity of the second theme, on the other hand, is worn down by inner resignation, yielding in an almost physiological sense. A subsequent variant of it is fierce and sombre, an effect of the peculiar rhythmic obsessiveness that dominates so many sections of these sonatas. This is followed by a momentarily acquiescent epilogue. The development does not develop at all: we get lost in the void of creeping chromatic motifs, suggesting the shiver provoked by a series of gusts of wind. Finally, the coda seems to be a subdued acceptance of the unacceptable.

QuoteFirst movement, Allegro [of 959]: this might bear the title of a famous composition by Charles Ives, The Unanswered question. The joyous, highly assertive incipit is misleading: the formal logic of what follows it defies immediate understanding. It proceeds by interruptions and harmonic digressions, including the second theme, which begins in gentle, questioning fashion, but whose concluding section, after various unexpected vicissitudes, has something stagnant about it. As in the previous sonata, the coda is a metaphorical figure of the acceptance of an insoluble situation, creating, this time, a complex layer of rhythms, at once mobile and static; the concluding arpeggios lead to an intense silence.

QuoteFirst movement, Assai moderato [of 960]: a constant movement, alternating quavers, triplets and semiquavers, creates a sense of perennial flow, significantly halted only by a few interruptions of a completely different character, primarily by a mysterious trill as early as the eighth bar, a kind of clamour that generates silence after it (I think of Freud's concept of 'the uncanny'). It explodes with virulence in the two bars that precede the ritornello, and will reverberate, irrepressibly, on at least ten further occasions; its final appearance will be at the end of the conciliatory epilogue. For the rest, Schubert deliberately proceeds as if groping his way along, allowing himself to be guided above all by concatenations of small intervals, touching on almost the entire range of keys, playing with the risk of losing the thread of the narrative.

My bold.

The ideas in these paragraphs, all by Alexander Lonquich, seem to me to be true to his performances in the 2018 release, with the caveat that I've only listened to 958/I once. They seem to me to present a wholly original view of Schubert, and one which makes his long form music more interesting and original than I had previously imagined possible. Gone is the image of a c 19 romantic songsmith with a  facility for  creating memorable melodies. We have someone who is pioneering what I think are very unromantic, indeed un-pre -romantic ideas like

Losing the narrative (Robbe Grillet)
Stagnation
Digression (Finegan's Wake)
Groping along (in the dark?) (Beckett)
No development at all (Claude Simon - Jardin des plantes)
Acceptance of the unacceptable (like Beckett?)

Lonquich, I suggest, has made Schubert a bit more our contemporary.

But "the image of a c 19 romantic songsmith with a  facility for  creating memorable melodies" is more like 1950s liner notes stuff and was already obsolete even then in the views of many musicians or critics. Even if one treats Schnabel and Erdmann as somewhat isolated pioneers (did Edwin Fischer play/record a sonata or only the Wanderer and shorter pieces?) by the late 60s or early 1970s there were sufficiently many recordings of Schubert, including the piano sonatas, that took them seriously, sometimes as serious and dark as it gets (e.g. Richter).
So I don't think these comments are wrong but they have been part and parcel of the Schubert reception for at least 4 decades or more, I'd think.

And while it is more obvious in literature and somewhat later music (mostly Schumann) some of these modern/contemporary features are to some extent clearly present in early 19th century art. There are fragments, there are extremely convoluted digressive writings (like Schumann's favorite Jean Paul) is a fascination with drugs and madness (Hoffmann, de Quincey etc.), suicide (Kleist). Including famous poets like Hoelderlin and musicians like Schumann actually ending their live in the psych ward.

I'm sure your right. I mean I don't know enough about romanticism to comment (I'm about to embark with a certain trepidation on a study of Nerval with some friends.)

Re interpretation, Richter was clearly a pioneer of something in the long form piano music, but I have the impression, and maybe I'm wrong, that his approach - slow, dramatic - hasn't been specially well received, people talk about Richter, Afanassiev, Lonquich as if they're eccentrics, outliers from the orthodox way of playing which is more rooted in the approach that Schnabel pioneered.  And Schnabel's Schubert is the music of an innocent songsmith isn't it.

Erdmann  is a different kettle of fish, but in terms of reception not very influential I suspect.

Could anyone suggest recordings of Schubert's Unfinished (call it the 7th or 8th, which ever you prefer), where you can actually hear the beginning with the strings?  Or are they all literally played ppppppppppppppppppppppppppp?

I find I have to listen to the beginning with the stereo full blast.

Quote from: ChamberNut on November 30, 2018, 11:41:02 AM
Could anyone suggest recordings of Schubert's Unfinished (call it the 7th or 8th, which ever you prefer), where you can actually hear the beginning with the strings?  Or are they all literally played ppppppppppppppppppppppppppp?

I find I have to listen to the beginning with the stereo full blast.

Ballot's recent recording Vienna comes to mind: http://a-fwd.to/1FcbhY0 (http://a-fwd.to/1FcbhY0) Tempered and Viennese lightness without going in for a race to the fastest common denominator. Neo-traditional, if you will.

I've finally got through a complete symphonies set where every single entry is a winner in my book:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/519HT7GJ09L.jpg)

I have individual favourites for all of them, but this bunch of performances by Suitner and the superb Staatskapelle, Berlin Orchestra is very near their equal. The sound is the best I've heard, too. As a set, among more than a dozen I know this is tops.

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 30, 2018, 04:10:40 PM
Ballot's recent recording Vienna comes to mind: http://a-fwd.to/1FcbhY0 (http://a-fwd.to/1FcbhY0) Tempered and Viennese lightness without going in for a race to the fastest common denominator. Neo-traditional, if you will.

Thank you for the recommendation!

I'm undertaking my next discography survey -- this time of Schubert Symphonies.

Here's what I have for the 60/70s. If anyone can confirm dates (earliest / last), that'd be great.

1964 Denis Vaughan/ (RCA Victrola) (nur LP)   
1969 Menuhin/Menuhin Festival Orchestra (EMI)   
1970 Maag/Philharmonia Hungarica (VOX)   
1963-71 Kertesz/Wiener Phil (Decca)   
1962-72 Böhm/Berliner Phil (DG)    
1967-72 Sawallisch/Staatskapelle Dresden (Philips)   
1978 Mehta/Israel Philharmonic (Decca, CDs: Australian Eloquence)   
1970er Karajan/Berliner Phil (EMI)   

Karajan per the Karajan Remastered credits
28.IX.1977 and 2-6.I.1978
Symphonies 1,2,3,4,5,6, Rosamunde overture and ballet music
8.I.1975
Symphony 8 (Unfinished)
10-12.VI.1977
Symphony 9 (Great)

So he spent almost as much time on the Ninth as he did on the first six combined.

Not only about cycles but while you are at it, could you try to find out if there actually were recordings of all symphonies in the mono age? I am not aware of 1 and 2 and not sure about 6. The Beecham 3,5,6 is already stereo, I think.

The earliest stereo cycle was not finished, Maazel started in 1958 but #1 and #9 are missing. Unfortunately, because I think this one is considerably better than the famous Böhm from a little later, far more alert and better sound as well. It would still be a contender for a very good modern instrument cycle, if complete.

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on December 13, 2018, 10:56:14 AM
I'm undertaking my next discography survey -- this time of Schubert Symphonies.

Here's what I have for the 60/70s. If anyone can confirm dates (earliest / last), that'd be great.

1964 Denis Vaughan/ (RCA Victrola) (nur LP)   
1969 Menuhin/Menuhin Festival Orchestra (EMI)   
1970 Maag/Philharmonia Hungarica (VOX)   
1963-71 Kertesz/Wiener Phil (Decca)   
1962-72 Böhm/Berliner Phil (DG)    
1967-72 Sawallisch/Staatskapelle Dresden (Philips)   
1978 Mehta/Israel Philharmonic (Decca, CDs: Australian Eloquence)   
1970er Karajan/Berliner Phil (EMI)

Oh goodie!  I'll be interested in your thoughts on the Kertesz/Wiener set.  If it had been and LP or cassette set, I surely would have worn this set out two or three fold.  :)

Quote from: JBS on December 13, 2018, 04:23:34 PM
Karajan per the Karajan Remastered credits
28.IX.1977 and 2-6.I.1978
Symphonies 1,2,3,4,5,6, Rosamunde overture and ballet music
8.I.1975
Symphony 8 (Unfinished)
10-12.VI.1977
Symphony 9 (Great)

So he spent almost as much time on the Ninth as he did on the first six combined.

...and that's exactly how it sounds.
Thanks much for those detailed dates! V. helpful, since my discs are separated from me.

Quote from: Jo498 on December 13, 2018, 11:44:14 PM
Not only about cycles but while you are at it, could you try to find out if there actually were recordings of all symphonies in the mono age? I am not aware of 1 and 2 and not sure about 6. The Beecham 3,5,6 is already stereo, I think.

The earliest stereo cycle was not finished, Maazel started in 1958 but #1 and #9 are missing. Unfortunately, because I think this one is considerably better than the famous Böhm from a little later, far more alert and better sound as well. It would still be a contender for a very good modern instrument cycle, if complete.

The earliest COMPLETE cycle I am aware of is that of Denis Vaughan - and that is already on stereo. Earlier than that -- and thanks for pointing out Maazel to me; I'll start looking -- there's only E.v.Beinum 1946–1957. He's mono, alright, but the 1, 2, and 9th are missing. (Eloquence has re-issued it. (http://a-fwd.to/tdEHoMX)) Another early cycle that's unfinished -- that of Karl Muenchinger 1959–1969 (missing only No.1) is also already (or at least partially) stereo.

Quote from: ChamberNut on December 14, 2018, 04:26:56 AM
Oh goodie!  I'll be interested in your thoughts on the Kertesz/Wiener set.  If it had been and LP or cassette set, I surely would have worn this set out two or three fold.  :)

Alas, I have not heard it yet. It was always so present and just there, when I came into my listening and collecting self, that I never thought much of it. Fusty. If I had purchased a set back then, it would probably have been Boehm. As it was, it ended up being the cheapo Karajan on two EMI Twofers that were my first introduction to the early Schubert symphonies. And I immediately knew that that was NOT how I wanted them performed. (I knew the 5th (https://amzn.to/2QteuLX) through Wand, NDR, which was so amazing.)

André, the Suitner you are liking so much, is that a clamshell box with soft sleeves for the CDs (Japan-style)?

Thanks for all the comments thus far. Jo498 - do you know when the last recording of Maazel's for DG with the BPh took place?

Here's what I have thus far:

Lorin   Maazel (2,3,4,5,6,8) Date(s) missing          
Eduard van Beinum, (3,4,5,6,8)   
Karl Münchinger   (2-6, 8, 9)   WPh, Klassische Philharmonie Stuttgart  (9)
Denis Vaughan, Alessandro Scarlatti Orchestra Neapel, RCA Victrola - is 1964 the right date? Never on CD?
Yehudi Menuhin, Menuhin Festival Orchestra, 1968 (Is that year - just one - correct?)
Peter   Maag, Philharmonica Hungarica, 1969, VOX
Istvan Kertesz, WPh, Decca
Karl    Böhm, BPh, DG
Wolfgang   Sawallisch Concertgebouw Orchestra, Philips - was this never issued on CD outside either the catch-all Sawallisch Box and the two Philips DUOs? Dates missing
Zubin Mehta, Israel Ph., Dates missing
Herbert Karajan, EMI

Jens: yes.

The Munchinger set is very good, but only one performance truly stands out: the 2nd.

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on December 14, 2018, 07:37:31 AM
Yehudi Menuhin, Menuhin Festival Orchestra, 1968 (Is that year - just one - correct?)

Hi Jens

I used to have that incarnation of the Menuhin, the back label indicates 1966-1969. see below found online :

(https://img.cdandlp.com/2018/01/imgL/119039282.jpg)
(https://img.cdandlp.com/2018/01/imgL/119039282-2.jpg)

Quote from: Papy Oli on December 14, 2018, 07:52:00 AM
Hi Jens

I used to have that incarnation of the Menuhin, the back label indicates 1966-1969. see below found online :

(https://img.cdandlp.com/2018/01/imgL/119039282.jpg)
(https://img.cdandlp.com/2018/01/imgL/119039282-2.jpg)

Those are the copyright years, not the recording dates -- they are usually a bit different. But the early copyright is telling, in that that's the very LATEST it could have begun. So I AM wrong. Thanks!

My question was not well phrased. I was pretty sure that there was no mono complete recording. Interesting that Van Beinum is pretty close, probably the most from one conductor in the mono era. But I was mainly wondering if there were earlier (single) recordings of the first two symphonies. Maybe not.

Maazel: Berlin, Jesus-Christus-Kirche: November 1959 (4,8), January 1961 (5+6), March 1962 (2+3).
I have them in a beige box dedicated to Maazel's early DG stuff. There is a more recent, more comprehensive blue box. The Schubert was also on a French twofer and I think Aussie eloquence as well.

This may be helpful, too:

http://www.tamino-klassikforum.at/index.php?thread/6259-franz-schubert-gesamtaufnahmen-der-sinfonien/&postID=179858#post179858

Quote from: Jo498 on December 14, 2018, 01:37:46 PM
My question was not well phrased. I was pretty sure that there was no mono complete recording. Interesting that Van Beinum is pretty close, probably the most from one conductor in the mono era. But I was mainly wondering if there were earlier (single) recordings of the first two symphonies. Maybe not.

Maazel: Berlin, Jesus-Christus-Kirche: November 1959 (4,8), January 1961 (5+6), March 1962 (2+3).
I have them in a beige box dedicated to Maazel's early DG stuff. There is a more recent, more comprehensive blue box. The Schubert was also on a French twofer and I think Aussie eloquence as well.

This may be helpful, too:

http://www.tamino-klassikforum.at/index.php?thread/6259-franz-schubert-gesamtaufnahmen-der-sinfonien/&postID=179858#post179858

That's very good. I can't rely on it (it's not complete and not always accurate -- i.e. where I know the exact dates, I see discrepancies -- but it will scurry me on to dig deeper, still. Trying to read the fine print off LP cover backs, most of the time. :-) Thanks much for finding & sharing.

Right, it is not meticulous discography. But it's the first time I heard of Stein's, Viotti's  or Vasary's.

I am of a somewhat divided mind. On the one hand, I find most of the early symphonies rather slight and don't often listen to them. I have Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw, Davis/Dresden, Keitel/Putbus, the Maazel incomplete and a bunch of single discs (not to start with the Great and the b minor fragment). On the other hand, they are also extremely charming and I could be tempted by Kertesz or one of the Menuhin's...

Quote from: Jo498 on December 15, 2018, 12:13:17 AM
Right, it is not meticulous discography. But it's the first time I heard of Stein's, Viotti's  or Vasary's.

I am of a somewhat divided mind. On the one hand, I find most of the early symphonies rather slight and don't often listen to them. I have Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw, Davis/Dresden, Keitel/Putbus, the Maazel incomplete and a bunch of single discs (not to start with the Great and the b minor fragment). On the other hand, they are also extremely charming and I could be tempted by Kertesz or one of the Menuhin's...

I've long dismissed Menuhin out of hand, having heard plenty stories of him as a conductor. But his Schubert may well been ahead of is time and still above average lively in the late incarnation. Perhaps I do him wrong.

I have Suitner on my list of acquisitions... perhaps even Kertesz, which I reckon will disappoint me, though. My over all favorite to date is still Brüggen (http://a-fwd.to/7ENQjmU)! (Though I like Harnoncourt I and Wand and Immerseel also.)

Quote from: Jo498 on December 15, 2018, 12:13:17 AM
Right, it is not meticulous discography. But it's the first time I heard of Stein's, Viotti's  or Vasary's.

I am of a somewhat divided mind. On the one hand, I find most of the early symphonies rather slight and don't often listen to them. I have Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw, Davis/Dresden, Keitel/Putbus, the Maazel incomplete and a bunch of single discs (not to start with the Great and the b minor fragment). On the other hand, they are also extremely charming and I could be tempted by Kertesz or one of the Menuhin's...

You must be one of very few collectors to have the fairly obscure Keitel/Putbus cycle from Minsk. Could you confirm the dates, by chance? I'm at: 1994 – 1997

Have worked my way through the second block:

Herbert   Blomstedt
Günter   Wand
Neville   Marriner
Daniel   Barenboim
Claudio   Abbado
Horst   Stein
Roy   Goodman
Roger   Norrington
Othmar   Suitner
Riccardo   Muti

Am awaiting confirmation of recording dates from Bamberg Symphony and then that's all set, too.

I must have picked up the Keitel very cheaply some time ago. As far as I recall it used to be a dark horse recommendation at rec.music.classical.recordings (but I got it much later, many years after it came out). The  Great is somewhat small scale AFAIR but the early ones are quite good.
recording dates:
1,2,3,6 March 1997 Minsk
4,5 May 1995 Minsk
7,8 (i.e. 8,9) September 1997 Martinskirche Uttenhofen

Speaking of the ninth, one detail that makes or breaks a performance for me is the very last chord, where a controversial hairpin sign is sometimes interpreted as a diminuendo. Now, just imagine the last C major chord of the Beethoven 5th or Brahms 1st played diminuendo. Coïtus interruptus maximus... ???

The fortissimo-est last chord I've heard is from Suitner. He caps it with a loud thwack from the timpani. I like to think of it as a nose-thumbing gesture to the HIP crowd  ;D.

Quote from: André on December 15, 2018, 06:43:13 AM
Speaking of the ninth, one detail that makes or breaks a performance for me is the very last chord, where a controversial hairpin sign is sometimes interpreted as a diminuendo. Now, just imagine the last C major chord of the Beethoven 5th or Brahms 1st played diminuendo. Coïtus interruptus maximus... ???
The fortissimo-est last chord I've heard is from Suitner. He caps it with a loud thwack from the timpani. I like to think of it as a nose-thumbing gesture to the HIP crowd  ;D.

This piqued my curiosity about one of my favorite works by a favorite composer. so I went to check.
There is an initial Fz on the unison C played by all the instruments over 5 beats (2 1/2 measures).
The diminuendo hairpin looks to me as a natural decay of the sound, that's all.

Zb

Quote from: Jo498 on December 15, 2018, 03:49:52 AM
I must have picked up the Keitel very cheaply some time ago. As far as I recall it used to be a dark horse recommendation at rec.music.classical.recordings (but I got it much later, many years after it came out). The  Great is somewhat small scale AFAIR but the early ones are quite good.
recording dates:
1,2,3,6 March 1997 Minsk
4,5 May 1995 Minsk
7,8 (i.e. 8,9) September 1997 Martinskirche Uttenhofen

Thanks much! I've also got the dates of the Goodman cycle confirmed... by the man himself.  :D :-* Alas, he's not very happy with his cycle, for the editing hatchet job that Nimbus hoisted on it.

Does anyone have the EMI Menuhin set, by chance, and could confirm 1966 - 1968 recording dates? (Not publication dates.) It's the only set where I haven't double-sourced or source-checked recording dates yet.

It is done!

The Schubert Symphony Cycle Survey stands. (Few more additions to come.)

A Survey of Schubert Symphony Cycles

(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xounXDatr_4/XCH8uCjNcII/AAAAAAAAK2k/hF60-ZL4uLcvUKlwpCpQX81IHepxisTVQCPcBGAYYCw/s640/Schubert-Glasses_ionarts_jens-f-laurson_1200.jpg)

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2018/12/a-survey-of-schubert-symphony-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2018/12/a-survey-of-schubert-symphony-cycles.html)

You seem unenthused about the Manacord Potsdam cycle, so I just want to register my opinion it's quite a good one. (And I know Brian likes it because his enthusiasm tipped me off to its existence.) Certainly struck me as better  than than Davis Dresden that I just finished listening to.

Sony has issued some of Mehta's symphony cycles in its superbudget white box series, so it's possible they will get around to his Schubert (although they already have three Schubert cycles in that series).

Great work, Jens !

I know 12 of these sets and a few singles from 4-5 others. The one I'm curious about is Hans Graf in Denmark. It's very pricey, though  :-X

I was one of the 1st here that got hooked on the Van Immerseel cycle (back then still on Sony).
And it still leaves little to be desired - it is even on period instruments... 8)

I recall getting into discussions with M forever  (on the old forum) on the added value of a period performance.
He was interested - I scanned the booklets with Van Immerseel's comments for him - but instinctively suspicious of any Romantic repertoire (debatable, in Schubert's case) that was not performed by the Wiener Philharmoniker under Sinopoli....  ;)

Q

Quote from: Que on December 31, 2018, 01:36:15 AM
I was one of the 1st here that got hooked on the Van Immerseel cycle (back then still on Sony).
And it still leaves little to be desired - it is even on period instruments... 8)

I recall getting into discussions with M forever  (on the old forum) on the added value of a period performance.
He was interested - I scanned the booklets with Van Immerseel's comments for him - but instinctively suspicious of any Romantic repertoire (debatable, in Schubert's case) that was not performed by the Wiener Philharmoniker under Sinopoli....  ;)

Q

;D

Yes, Immerseel holds up VERY well. (And so does Brueggen.)

A local classical radio station was (again!) offering the Unfinished Symphony and the disc jockey, apparently because he thought he had to do something additional to earn his keep, offered the claim that, if Schubert had lived to the same age as Beethoven (i.e. 56 years), he would be considered greater than Beethoven.

Any opinions?   ;)

Quote from: Cato on January 04, 2019, 07:16:18 AM
A local classical radio station was (again!) offering the Unfinished Symphony and the disc jockey, apparently because he thought he had to do something additional to earn his keep, offered the claim that, if Schubert had lived to the same age as Beethoven (i.e. 56 years), he would be considered greater than Beethoven.

Any opinions?   ;)

Well, yes and no, is my opinion. I've bloviated similarly on past occasions, suggesting more specifically that if Schubert had continued to compose -- for as many years as he would have had to live had only he reached the age of Ludwig or some other reasonable older age -- at the level at which he composed in his last two years before his death, then we would mention Schubert's name before those of Beethoven and Mozart.

But this pointless if droll conjecture -- really only meant to highlight just how great late Schubert's compositions are -- is kept in check by the fact that knowing of his impending doom certainly or at least probably added that quality to it that made it, in part, so great.

Quote from: Cato on January 04, 2019, 07:16:18 AM
A local classical radio station was (again!) offering the Unfinished Symphony and the disc jockey, apparently because he thought he had to do something additional to earn his keep, offered the claim that, if Schubert had lived to the same age as Beethoven (i.e. 56 years), he would be considered greater than Beethoven.

Any opinions?   ;)

I greatly beware of such pronouncements --- what I know is that 30 years ago Beethoven was by far my favorite composer, while today (1) Schubert is in my top 3 (together with Mozart and Chopin), and (2) Beethoven makes it to my top 10 in whatever combination I can think of it. Desert island utopias be damned, I wouldn't part with any of them.

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 04, 2019, 07:41:00 AM
Well, yes and no, is my opinion. I've bloviated similarly on past occasions, suggesting more specifically that if Schubert had continued to compose -- for as many years as he would have had to live had only he reached the age of Ludwig or some other reasonable older age -- at the level at which he composed in his last two years before his death, then we would mention Schubert's name before those of Beethoven and Mozart.

But this pointless if droll conjecture -- really only meant to highlight just how great late Schubert's compositions are -- is kept in check by the fact that knowing of his impending doom certainly or at least probably added that quality to it that made it, in part, so great.

Yes, the influence of that aspect is not to be discounted.

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 04, 2019, 07:41:00 AM
Well, yes and no, is my opinion. I've bloviated similarly on past occasions, suggesting more specifically that if Schubert had continued to compose -- for as many years as he would have had to live had only he reached the age of Ludwig or some other reasonable older age -- at the level at which he composed in his last two years before his death, then we would mention Schubert's name before those of Beethoven and Mozart.

But this pointless if droll conjecture -- really only meant to highlight just how great late Schubert's compositions are -- is kept in check by the fact that knowing of his impending doom certainly or at least probably added that quality to it that made it, in part, so great.

You mean, we knowing of it, or Schubert knowing of it? The former is post factum, the latter is more myth than reality.  :laugh:

Quote from: Florestan on January 04, 2019, 07:50:53 AM
You mean, we knowing of it, or Schubert knowing of it? The former is post factum, the latter is more myth than reality.  :laugh:

I mean Schubert knowing it, of course.

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 04, 2019, 07:56:59 AM
I mean Schubert knowing it, of course.

Well, he didn't quite know it until the very end.  ;D

Quote from: Florestan on January 04, 2019, 07:59:05 AM
Well, he didn't quite know it until the very end.  ;D

Oh, no. It was quite clear for him that he carried a death sentence within him for quite a while. Why would you suggest that he didn't know until the very end?

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 04, 2019, 07:41:00 AMthat knowing of his impending doom certainly or at least probably added that quality to it that made it, in part, so great.

How sadistic and torturous would it be to wish upon him 30 extra years of life, all lived in similar doom-laden misery?  ;D

He could not expect to live to a very old age with syphilis. But he could hardly expect to die in his early 30s. It is all the more tragic as he was apparently only a few months away before establishing himself more firmly with public concerts that would have improved his economic situation etc.

On the other hand, I cannot completely deny the attractiveness of the somewhat esoteric idea that Schubert accomplished almost as much in 31 years than he would have in a longer timespan. (Even Alfred Einstein thinks along similar lines in a little book of his, "Größe in der Musik" (Greatness in Music).
Apart from such a form of artistic predestination we should not neglect that there are very real cases of composers "stagnating" at a fairly early age, Rossini being the most famous example. Even for Schumann and Mendelssohn we could plausibly say that they "stagnated" (on a very high level they had reached rather early).

Of course, it is pure speculation that Schubert could have "pulled a Rossini". But so is the idea that he would have certainly and completely overshadowed and outclassed most other music of the 1830s-50s, had he lived into his mid/late 50s.

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 04, 2019, 08:15:36 AM
Oh, no. It was quite clear for him that he carried a death sentence within him for quite a while. Why would you suggest that he didn't know until the very end?

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/focus/schubert%E2%80%99s-final-year (https://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/focus/schubert%E2%80%99s-final-year)

Quote from: Cato on January 04, 2019, 07:16:18 AM
A local classical radio station was (again!) offering the Unfinished Symphony and the disc jockey, apparently because he thought he had to do something additional to earn his keep, offered the claim that, if Schubert had lived to the same age as Beethoven (i.e. 56 years), he would be considered greater than Beethoven.

Any opinions?   ;)

We will never know, will we?   :)  He (Schubert) was definitely trending in that direction.

Quote from: Florestan on January 04, 2019, 08:44:05 AM
https://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/focus/schubert%E2%80%99s-final-year (https://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/focus/schubert%E2%80%99s-final-year)

Very interesting article!  I find the remarks on the last Missa especially intriguing.

Quote from: ChamberNut on January 04, 2019, 09:15:48 AM
We will never know, will we?   :)  He (Schubert) was definitely trending in that direction.

Eighteen symphonies?  Perhaps violin and piano concertos?  Aye, we will never know.  Syphilis must have its way.

Quote from: Jo498 on January 04, 2019, 08:36:33 AM
He could not expect to live to a very old age with syphilis. But he could hardly expect to die in his early 30s. It is all the more tragic as he was apparently only a few months away before establishing himself more firmly with public concerts that would have improved his economic situation etc.

On the other hand, I cannot completely deny the attractiveness of the somewhat esoteric idea that Schubert accomplished almost as much in 31 years than he would have in a longer timespan. (Even Alfred Einstein thinks along similar lines in a little book of his, "Größe in der Musik" (Greatness in Music).
Apart from such a form of artistic predestination we should not neglect that there are very real cases of composers "stagnating" at a fairly early age, Rossini being the most famous example. Even for Schumann and Mendelssohn we could plausibly say that they "stagnated" (on a very high level they had reached rather early).

Of course, it is pure speculation that Schubert could have "pulled a Rossini". But so is the idea that he would have certainly and completely overshadowed and outclassed most other music of the 1830s-50s, had he lived into his mid/late 50s.

"....pulled a Rossini" is one of the funnier phrases I've read lately.

I would argue that late Schumann is not stagnation but in fact a reaching of new levels of composition. What sublime music flowed from his pen that he had hitherto not come close to. And while I can appreciate the argument as regards Mendelssohn, I don't agree with that one, either, given such works as the op.80 string quartet (1847), the 2nd string quintet (1845), Symphonies 2, 3, 4 (1840-44), VC (1844), Elijah (1846) or Psalm 100 (1842) -- all composed in his last 7 years... above the ripe old age of 31. :-)

Quote from: Florestan on January 04, 2019, 08:44:05 AM
https://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/focus/schubert%E2%80%99s-final-year (https://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/focus/schubert%E2%80%99s-final-year)

Are you basing this off just this line: "But until the illnesses of their final weeks, neither composer could have suspected that death was imminent." (I've not read beyond, I'm afraid but lazy enough to admit.)

Syphillis was a death sentence back then; there was no doubting he wasn't aware of the disease; the question of whether he was aware of the absolute proximity and imminence of his death or just its impendation (it's a word now, if it wasn't), is not super relevant, to my asserting that having your mortality impressed upon you in no uncertain, reasonably proximate ways must change the way you think, act, perceive, compose.

Quote from: Cato on January 04, 2019, 09:27:33 AM

Eighteen symphonies?  Perhaps violin and piano concertos?  Aye, we will never know.  Syphilis must have its way.

Without question I think there would have been concerti in the future.  Perhaps another dozen piano sonatas as well?  :-\

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 04, 2019, 09:29:07 AM
"....pulled a Rossini" is one of the funnier phrases I've read lately.

I would argue that late Schumann is not stagnation but in fact a reaching of new levels of composition. What sublime music flowed from his pen that he had hitherto not come close to. And while I can appreciate the argument as regards Mendelssohn, I don't agree with that one, either, given such works as the op.80 string quartet (1847), the 2nd string quintet (1845), Symphonies 2, 3, 4 (1840-44), VC (1844), Elijah (1846) or Psalm 100 (1842) -- all composed in his last 7 years... above the ripe old age of 31. :-)


Are you basing this off just this line: "But until the illnesses of their final weeks, neither composer could have suspected that death was imminent." (I've not read beyond, I'm afraid but lazy enough to admit.)

Read further.

Quotehaving your mortality impressed upon you in no uncertain, reasonably proximate ways must change the way you think, act, perceive, compose.

Yes, precisely, but I doubt that knowing you have only 6 months yet to live makes one, genius or not, compose some of the greatest masterpieces of Western music --- a death sentence like that is more likely than not to paralyze, not boost, your faculties. Where to start? What to begin composing? What to finish? And will you have the time to do it? And does it matter at all? No, really, if you think of it it is quite impossible that such a situation resulted in one of the most creative outbursts in the whole history of Western art.

Syphillis is speculation, along with typhoid and any number of afflictions attributed to Schubert, such as mercury poisoning. I get the impression that being convinced you are dying was common in those days, when understanding of disease was minimal and anyone could drop dead of an infection from a scratch or food poisoning at any time. Any minor ailment could prompt your doctor to bleed you to death or give you a dangerously poisonous medicine.

But, by all means, continue the speculation. I think Schubert's 17th symphony would have anticipated Schoenberg's Verkarte Nacht.

Quote from: Florestan on January 04, 2019, 09:57:44 AM
Read further.

I got to: "...though as a syphilitic he would have known that he was unlikely to reach middle (let alone old) age." :-)

As to paralyzation vs. inspiration... now that's speculation!  ;D

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 04, 2019, 10:04:56 AM
I got to: "...though as a syphilitic he would have known that he was unlikely to reach middle (let alone old) age." :-)

Well, what was the (average) middle or old age back in 1828 Vienna? I doubt it was 50, or 80 something as it is now.   

Be it as it may, I am perfectly happy with what Schubert did compose, which is enough to occupy my listening time for a few years exclusively. What he might have composed we'll never know and therefore I'm not interested in. The same goes for Beethoven.

Quote from: Cato on January 04, 2019, 07:16:18 AM
A local classical radio station was (again!) offering the Unfinished Symphony and the disc jockey, apparently because he thought he had to do something additional to earn his keep, offered the claim that, if Schubert had lived to the same age as Beethoven (i.e. 56 years), he would be considered greater than Beethoven.

Any opinions?   ;)

No doubt, if Schubert had lived to 56 that we would have had full integral Serialism in his late works, and possibly he even would have invented Hip-Hop

Concerning Rossini: he lived another 37 years to age 76 after he stopped composing operas.  Speculation about bipolar disorder, or depression about his mother's death, etc. etc. have been bandied about.  Gonorrhea, rather than syphilis, seems to have been his particular venereal disease, which might have been involved in his "retirement" from opera.  To be sure, after the gonorrhea seemed to have gone into remission (How?  Natural strengthening of his immune system?), he did start composing again, but not operas.


https://books.google.com/books?id=mcEiihJ5p9MC&pg=PA69&lpg=PA69&dq=Rossini+%2B+gonorrhea&source=bl&ots=be-_Ei0gFU&sig=IWI6qbxWYKfSPTvrF2Q0cEH0wlY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjCtbDa79TfAhWTxIMKHbfNDN4Q6AEwDXoECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q=Rossini%20%2B%20gonorrhea&f=false (https://books.google.com/books?id=mcEiihJ5p9MC&pg=PA69&lpg=PA69&dq=Rossini+%2B+gonorrhea&source=bl&ots=be-_Ei0gFU&sig=IWI6qbxWYKfSPTvrF2Q0cEH0wlY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjCtbDa79TfAhWTxIMKHbfNDN4Q6AEwDXoECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q=Rossini%20%2B%20gonorrhea&f=false)

Syphilis and Schubert ?  Possibly he never had it, but was misdiagnosed, and was poisoned by the medicines of the day.

Quote from: Florestan on January 04, 2019, 10:12:49 AM
Well, what was the (average) middle or old age back in 1828 Vienna? I doubt it was 50, or 80 something as it is now.   

Old age was approx. the same. Middle and average age were WILDLY below what we have today.

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 04, 2019, 10:44:09 AM
Old age was approx. the same. Middle and average age were WILDLY below what we have today.

Life expectancy of a 30 year old was 34 years in 1850 and is currently about 48 years - so some significant improvement but nothing like the reduction in life expectancy at birth, which was driven by the fall in childhood mortality

https://www.infoplease.com/us/mortality/life-expectancy-age-1850-2011

Quote from: Cato on January 04, 2019, 10:42:59 AM
Concerning Rossini: he lived another 37 years to age 76 after he stopped composing operas.  Speculation about bipolar disorder, or depression about his mother's death, etc. etc. have been bandied about.  Gonorrhea, rather than syphilis, seems to have been his particular venereal disease, which might have been involved in his "retirement" from opera.  To be sure, after the gonorrhea seemed to have gone into remission (How?  Natural strengthening of his immune system?), he did start composing again, but not operas.

I think Rossini's case was much simpler than the critics have made of it. He simply made enough money from his career to be able to live at ease in Paris without the hustle and bustle of an operatic composer back then. I know that this goes completely against the Romantic image / myth of what an artist is / should be, but it might --- just might --- be true. And I think that were it true it would add to, not subtract from, his genius. Not to mention that his late piano works are a treasure trove of witty tunefulness stemming from an aesthetic position wich imho adumbrate Satie.

Other famous artists in teh 19th century who were suffering from syphilis often lived into their 40s or 50s although in many cases the last years were not pleasant.

Quote from: Florestan on January 04, 2019, 11:09:30 AM
the hustle and bustle of an operatic composer back then.

And Rossini's composing life was famously intense - he would write an opera in a crazily short amount of time, mostly at 3 a.m., while partying harder and longer than most college students do today. It's little wonder he achieved burnout once he reached the age where your hangovers start getting worse!

In Mann's Faustus there's a composer who knowingly, sleeps with a syphilitic prostitute to catch the disease, he thinks that it will improve his music.

It seems that at least some of the composers who wrote very quickly had at least a tendency towards what we would called bipolar disorder today. Then there is substance abuse; amounts of alcohol we would consider highly problematic were often fairly normal. Then often venereal disease or other chronic illnesses. It is hardly surprising that in several cases such factors led to highly intense but short lives or breakdowns at a fairly early age. I read that Rossini suffered from burnout and depression and when he recovered he did compose again, just not operas.
I don't think there are obvious indications that Schubert would have had a similar fate had he lived another 20-25 years. But it seems also premature to assume that he would have sustained anything close to the exponential development of ca. 1822-28.

Quote from: Jo498 on January 05, 2019, 12:16:50 AM
amounts of alcohol we would consider highly problematic were often fairly normal.

Yes, but we have to consider two things:

(1), given the sanitation state back then in the early 19th century Europe, drinking wine or beer was much more healthy than drinking water,

and

(2), nulla placere diu nec vivere carmina possunt quæ scribuntur aquæ potoribus --- Horace.

Quote from: Florestan on January 05, 2019, 10:03:18 AM
Yes, but we have to consider two things:

(1), given the sanitation state back then in the early 19th century Europe, drinking wine or beer was much more healthy than drinking water,

Doesn't drinking wine/beer/hard stuff dehydrate you some more? You would still need water wouldn't you?

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on January 05, 2019, 10:07:55 AM
Doesn't drinking wine/beer/hard stuff dehydrate you some more? You would still need water wouldn't you?

Yes, and it's by drinking water that one got all sort of diseases back then --- hence the popular Romanian saying that "water is no good, not even in one's boots!"  :laugh:

And how about the Horace quote? You seem to have missed it --- on purpose, I wonder?   :laugh:

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on January 05, 2019, 10:07:55 AM
Doesn't drinking wine/beer/hard stuff dehydrate you some more? You would still need water wouldn't you?

I'm not sure that is necessarily correct. I was under the impression that there is plenty water in these drinks that even those that have diuretic qualities (coffee, champagne, alcohol in general et al.) will supply the body with more water than it taketh out of it. You'll just be drunk at some point. But we should also realize that esp. beer back then was a lot weaker than it is, on average, today... being mostly small beer.

I didn't mean to imply that they were all drunkards and usually slightly tipsy. Although this was certainly often the case. My point was more that "live fast, die young" was a) not invented by Jim Morrison b) in an age with a far higher mortality rate in young and middle age, lots of chronic diseases without good treatment, precarious economic conditions even for artists who had themselves established in the middle class (one or two failures or changes of fashion away from poverty, cf. Vivaldi or Joh. Chr. Bach at the end of their lives) not even such a bad "strategy".

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 05, 2019, 11:09:00 AM
I'm not sure that is necessarily correct. I was under the impression that there is plenty water in these drinks that even those that have diuretic qualities (coffee, champagne, alcohol in general et al.) will supply the body with more water than it taketh out of it. You'll just be drunk at some point. But we should also realize that esp. beer back then was a lot weaker than it is, on average, today... being mostly small beer.

A lot weaker? Beer in the U.S. is around 5% alcohol.

Quote from: Florestan on January 05, 2019, 10:13:18 AM
Yes, and it's by drinking water that one got all sort of diseases back then --- hence the popular Romanian saying that "water is no good, not even in one's boots!"  :laugh:

And how about the Horace quote? You seem to have missed it --- on purpose, I wonder?   :laugh:

Oh I missed that quote on first reading. Is the translation more or less correct?

No poems written by water-drinkers can be long popular or live long

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on January 05, 2019, 02:26:57 PM

Oh I missed that quote on first reading. Is the translation more or less correct?

No poems written by water-drinkers can be long popular or live long

Yes, it is fine!

interesting essay here on playing the piano sonatas

http://www.posgrado.unam.mx/musica/lecturas/historiaInterpretacion/JSTOR/Bilson-Schubert.pdf

"small beer" was usually around 1% alcohol
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_beer
And wine was often diluted.
Still, Goethe apparently drank like two bottles of wine a day and lived a highly productive life of 82 years.

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on January 05, 2019, 02:26:57 PM
A lot weaker? Beer in the U.S. is around 5% alcohol.

I will grant you that beverage-like concoctions like "Coors Light" do a creditable job approximating "small beer" or, as has been remarked upon occasion, "the only successful attempt at diluting water".

But back to Schubert and all his symphonies... :-) http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2018/12/a-survey-of-schubert-symphony-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2018/12/a-survey-of-schubert-symphony-cycles.html)

Quote from: Jo498 on January 06, 2019, 01:13:12 AM
Goethe apparently drank like two bottles of wine a day and lived a highly productive life of 82 years.

He must have drunk only high quality wine.  ;)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/719hZVXdsUL._SL1240_.jpg)

An extremely turbulent, tragic, epic, intense, violent, jolting, clashing, stormy and stressy performance of the G major quartet, well worth hearing and well worth reading the booklet.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51fs3xLVUvL._SS500.jpg)

I just listened to the D 840/i here and in Uchida'a recording. Leonhardt lets the left hand music sound as important as the right hand - there's not so frequently a sense of secondary accompaniment and primary melody. And for some reason the harmonies sound less white note than I recall in other performances - I can't find out about the temperament of her piano, I don't have the booklet, but I bet it's not equal. Whatever it is it is a great help in this repetitive and often static music.

In fact what Leonhardt does is far from static, it's thrilling. On the basis of this one movement, she's part of the new wave of Schubert performance, as exemplified by musicians like Tetzlaff and Helmchen. She stresses the way the collisions, harmonic and rhythmic, in the music, the restlessness, so that the result is more turbulent and stormy than lyrical and sweet.

I played through Schubert's D960 at what I thought were "moderate" tempi and ended up with total timings of 17:56 / 12:24 / 3:46 / 8:34. It may take some work to de-Schnabelise myself.

(Have to find a normal-to-slow version of the first movement that actually convinces me—I have Eschenbach (III?), Lonquich, Takahashi and Hamelin queued up, also giving some consideration to Lars Vogt.)

Quote from: amw on February 16, 2019, 04:59:22 AMHave to find a normal-to-slow version of the first movement that actually convinces me—I have Eschenbach (III?), Lonquich, Takahashi and Hamelin queued up, also giving some consideration to Lars Vogt.

Is that Eschenbach the Harmonia Mundi one?  I've not heard that one.  Typically, he does well when he plays slow, if you like his style.  If you like the opener more moderate, I'm not sure any pianist will convince when dragging it out.

Count me on team fast (or fastish) for 960/i. I'm now curious to read amw's history and see any favorites you might have with that approach. (Well...Schnabel.) It is interesting, amw, that with that "moderate" tempo in the first movement, you then turn around and play the second so slowly! As a fan of big contrasts (and a believer that Schubert was too - D. 956, the piano trios), I probably would have enjoyed being in the room...

Quote from: Brian on February 16, 2019, 07:32:20 AM
Count me on team fast (or fastish) for 960/i.

How fast could Molto moderato be? Like, not fast at all?  :)

"moderato" is not adagio. (tbh it is usally used as a modifier, it does not make much sense on its own therefore it is not implausible to think of it as "(allegro) molto moderato", i.e. allegro but considerably slower than a usual allegro would be.
Cf. the main theme to the beginning of Beethoven's Archduke trio (1st mvmt). It's probably supposed to be clearly slower than Beethoven's "Allegro moderato" but it is not slow. It is still a moderately fast movement. As such it is played by most older pianists, especially those with a Austro-German background (Schnabel, Badura-Skoda, probably Erdmann, I am not a collector of the piece).
Then came some Russians and suggested to play it very slowly and it kinda stuck.

Quote from: Jo498 on February 16, 2019, 08:19:29 AM
Then came some Russians and suggested to play it very slowly and it kinda stuck.

I think it could be interesting to do comparative timings pre- and post-Richter. 

Quote from: Jo498 on February 16, 2019, 08:19:29 AM
"moderato" is not adagio. (tbh (1) it is usally used as a modifier, it does not make much sense on its own therefore it is not implausible to think of it as "(allegro) molto moderato", i.e. (2)
allegro but considerably slower than a usual allegro would be.

(1) Why didn't Schubert wrote Allegro molto moderato?

(2) considerably slower --- how much considerably and how much slower?

QuoteCf. the main theme to the beginning of Beethoven's Archduke trio (1st mvmt). It's probably supposed to be clearly slower than Beethoven's "Allegro moderato"

Probably supposed by whom?

I like it slow, and at the moment I'm liking this very poised and sane reading -- Andrei, this is maybe your sort of thing, given what you said about Perahia.

(http://www.classicalsource.com/images/upload/15445_1.jpg)

My opinion of Hamelin in C 19 music -- Chopin, Schumann, Beethoven and now Schubert is growing rapidly.

Quote from: Mandryka on February 16, 2019, 10:17:12 AM
I like it slow,

Well, I like it Molto moderato.  :D

That is, rather slow than fast.

Quote
and at the moment I'm liking this very poised and sane reading -- Andrei, this is maybe your sort of thing, given what you said about Perahia.

(http://www.classicalsource.com/images/upload/15445_1.jpg)

My opinion of Hamelin in C 19 music -- Chopin, Schumann, Beethoven and now Schubert is growing rapidly.

Blimey, Howard (it is Howard, right?)! Hamelin is the last name I would have thought of! Could you please let me have it, if you can? TIA.

Poised and sane --- yeah, that's my thing alright as of late --- probably due to some personal issues I can't stand in-your-face heroism and angst anymore --- not that I ever stood them but nowadays more than ever I find them obnoxious.

Quote from: Florestan on February 16, 2019, 10:35:15 AM
Well, I like it Molto moderato.  :D

That is, rather slow than fast.

Blimey, Howard (it is Howard, right?)! Hamelin is the last name I would have thought of! Could you please let me have it, if you can? TIA.

Poised and sane --- yeah, that's my thing alright as of late --- probably due to some personal issues I can't stand in-your-face heroism and angst anymore --- not that I ever stood them but nowadays more than ever I find them obnoxious.

Your inbox is full (again)

Quote from: Mandryka on February 16, 2019, 11:19:43 AM
Your inbox is full (again)

Not anymore.  :)

Quote from: Todd on February 16, 2019, 07:15:11 AM

Is that Eschenbach the Harmonia Mundi one?

Yes. I already have the early DG/Brilliant one, which is surprisingly not-slow. My assumption had always been that there was a second recording from the EMI/Warner years before the Harmonia Mundi one, but it appears he might have just recorded the 4-hands repertoire then.

Quote from: Brian on February 16, 2019, 07:32:20 AM
Count me on team fast (or fastish) for 960/i. I'm now curious to read amw's history and see any favorites you might have with that approach. (Well...Schnabel.) It is interesting, amw, that with that "moderate" tempo in the first movement, you then turn around and play the second so slowly!

I grew up with the Schnabel recording and it seems to have imprinted. It's still my reference in most respects. Strangely this hasn't been true of its discmate D959 though, which I "should" have likewise imprinted on, but didn't. (my reference version is currently the first Imogen Cooper on Ottavo)

With the first movement, I think part of the issue is the time signature. Schubert wrote C, or 4 beats to a bar—and at four moderate beats per bar the music is indeed very slow. However, the only source for the sonata (and D958 & 959) is a fair copy autograph manuscript; Schubert didn't live to proof it for publication, and he was known to leave out the line (Ȼ) and other such details as he wrote very quickly. (A lot of editorial work was done by the editors of the first editions, including Brahms, and only undone in the new Bärenreiter critical edition.) If you look at the music of the first movement itself there are many passages where it's very clearly in alla breve time—two moderate beats to a bar—e.g. this is quite obvious in the development section. A tempo that has two "very moderate" beats to the bar would come to something like 𝅗𝅥 = 66; four "very moderate" beats, ♩= 66 or similar, would come out at ~30 minutes, slower than all existing recordings. (The slow tempo of someone like Richter or Korstick is about ♩= 80. In Schubert's time, this tempo would be approximately an "Allegretto"; "Moderato" is probably intended to be slower.)

"Andante sostenuto" for the second movement implies a slower tempo than a Moderato; so if the Moderato is around 66 BPM, Andante might be around 60, and with the "sostenuto" closer to 54. I think I played it so slowly just because I was playing the first movement at about 54 already (because I'm not a very good pianist) and don't think the second movement should ever sound faster than or in the same tempo as the first movement.

Quote from: Florestan on February 16, 2019, 08:31:55 AM
(1) Why didn't Schubert wrote Allegro molto moderato?

(2) considerably slower --- how much considerably and how much slower?

"Allegro molto moderato" was a different tempo for Schubert than "Molto moderato". A standard Allegro in Schubert's time was about 132-138 BPM, and a standard Allegretto about 76-80 BPM, so he & Beethoven created a whole gradation of tempi in between those two—Allegro non tanto, Allegro ma non troppo, Allegro moderato, Allegro molto moderato, Allegretto vivace, roughly in order. The "Allegro molto moderato" of the 15th quartet resolves to a tempo of about MM 96 in most performances, which is also more or less the fastest tempo at which the movement could be played intelligibly. It seems that Schubert went further by introducing "Moderato" and "Molto moderato" as intermediate tempi between Allegretto moderato (MM 72ish) and Andante (MM 60ish), and did so particularly in the first movements of piano sonatas in alla breve time (2/2 or 12/8).

Charles Rosen's chapter on tempo in Beethoven's Vienna in his companion to the Beethoven Piano Sonatas is a useful reference.

Quote from: Mandryka on February 16, 2019, 10:17:12 AM
I like it slow, and at the moment I'm liking this very poised and sane reading -- Andrei, this is maybe your sort of thing, given what you said about Perahia.

(http://www.classicalsource.com/images/upload/15445_1.jpg)

My opinion of Hamelin in C 19 music -- Chopin, Schumann, Beethoven and now Schubert is growing rapidly.

It probably shouldn't be a surprise that the world's best active pianist makes good recordings, but I think all the flashy stuff he plays has served to distract us all from that.....

(Has he played any Beethoven? Apart from the Alkan transcription of the 3rd Concerto)

Re Hamelin Beethoven
At least some of it is in his repetoire
https://www.masslive.com/entertainment/index.ssf/2016/08/review_pianist_marc-andre_hame.html

And Google shows some things on Youtube. But apparently no CDs yet.

I have recordings of him playing op 110 and op 111 in 2004 and the appassionata in 2017.

Listening again to his 960/1 the word which popped into my head was "pastoral" , like the expression of untroubled harmony. The rumbles in the left hand have lost their menace, and become more like a contented lion's purr.

Someone else was praising his Chopin op 58 recently, and it is indeed very good indeed.

Did you play all D960, amw? The reason I ask is a friend of mine tried recently and found that he just didn't have the physical musicular strength, just too tiring!

Yes but I don't find it as difficult as your friend evidently—for me the most punishing Schubert sonatas are D850 and D894 as well as the tarantella finale to D958. These things are always subjective.

Hamelin's 960 is good but I'm not sure I have much to say about it from one listen whilst not in the best mental state—will revisit. I also listened to his Op. 109 on youtube. It would be a competitive version if he took it to the studio, but evidently has his own reasons for not doing so (even if just that he feels there's too much competition out there...)

He's so good at playing the piano, Hamelin is. Just the way he can make the voices seem to float over each other and the way he can make colours appear. It's a wonderfully indulgent sensual experience. I thought I was becoming blasé about that sort of thing - like, 30 years ago I remember thinking the same about Arrau and Richter but there's been so much water under the bridge since then that I wouldn't have thought I could still have that feeling of listening to someone with superpowers. But no, my jaw dropped to the floor: Hamelin has the magic touch.

I tend to prefer the first movement of D960 played at a flowing tempo. My first disc was the Curzon interpretation on Decca and I still like it. Orozco, Eschenbach and Cooper are superb in the work. I'm not convinced by very slow interpretations, especially if the pianist opts to take the repeat.

The fastest First movement I've come across is from Eduard Erdmann (the composer - he was also a concert pianist). It kind it unsettles the listener at first, but it works.

This morning, inspired by this discussion, I put on Dejan Lazic's excellent D. 960 (first movement: 20:22), and my girlfriend came into the living room after 7 minutes to pronounce it "a good CD." So, it has that stamp of approval going for it!

Quote from: Brian on February 17, 2019, 01:08:28 PM
This morning, inspired by this discussion, I put on Dejan Lazic's excellent D. 960 (first movement: 20:22), and my girlfriend came into the living room after 7 minutes to pronounce it "a good CD." So, it has that stamp of approval going for it!

That, sir, is a very good CD.  Make sure to rip it and keep a copy backed up online for safekeeping.

Quote from: Brian on February 17, 2019, 01:08:28 PM
This morning, inspired by this discussion, I put on Dejan Lazic's excellent D. 960 (first movement: 20:22), and my girlfriend came into the living room after 7 minutes to pronounce it "a good CD." So, it has that stamp of approval going for it!

I haven't heard that one but based on listening to 1:55 of it, it's probably going to be good, yes. Although based on a similar amount of time the Rafael Orozco recording recommended above is less smoothly played but more my thing (first movement: 19:18).

I guess I prefer first movements that avoid any kind of calmness or "sameness" & especially that exploit the differences between p, pp & ppp.

Quote from: amw on February 18, 2019, 12:25:31 AM


I guess I prefer first movements that avoid any kind of calmness or "sameness" & especially that exploit the differences between p, pp & ppp.

I think it's not a coincidence that Hamelin has recorded both Feldman and Schubert. I'm interested in the idea that in the C19 there should have been a composer who was exploring stillness and homogeneity -- at least that seems to be one way of making sense of some of his music.