GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Great Recordings and Reviews => Topic started by: Mandryka on June 03, 2018, 06:39:03 AM

Title: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: Mandryka on June 03, 2018, 06:39:03 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71Lk%2Bs5qDnL._SL1200_.jpg)

Scheidemann’s music sounds well on this 2009 organ, and Joseph Rassam’s playing is perfectly tasteful. The registrations are contrasted enough to make the counterpoint very clear, but he never lapses into tawdry symphonic colours; he manages to make the music sing, dance and pray,  without ever lapsing into  fausse naïveté.

Booklet is here for anyone like me who listens to a stream.

https://issuu.com/klassiek.nl/docs/digital_booklet_scheidemann_keyboar

The sound quality is very good.

I haven’t listened to the music on virginal/harpsichord properly yet. The instruments he chose are excellent.
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: 71 dB on June 03, 2018, 08:32:43 AM
Sweelinck’s pupils include also Andreas Düben (1597-1662) and there are two Scheidts, Samuel (1587-1654) and Gottried (1593-1661).
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: Mandryka on June 03, 2018, 10:56:41 AM
Sweelinck’s pupils include also Andreas Düben (1597-1662) and there are two Scheidts, Samuel (1587-1654) and Gottried (1593-1661).

Thanks for mentioning Andreas Düben, your mentioning it has led me to what is, I think, a  fine discovery from the point of view of music, organ (Norrfjärden) and performance

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2000/apr00/RoyalInstrument.jpg)

Andreas DÜBEN Praeludium Pedaliter Wo Gott der Herr nicht bei uns hält
Melchoir SCHILDT Gleichwie das Feuer Paduaria Lachnymae
Gustav DÜBEN Suite in D minor
A & M DÜBEN Allein Gott in der Höh sei Ehr
Martin DÜBEN Praeluium Erstanden ist der heiley Christ
ANONYMOUS Frantzösches Liedelein
J.R. RADECK Engellischer Mascharada Courant. Sarand
H. SCHEIDEMANN Englische Mascarada oder Judentanz
M. DÜBEN Praembulum Pedaliter
G. DÜBEN (?) Nun lob, mein Seel, den Herren.
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: 71 dB on June 04, 2018, 12:52:40 AM
Thanks for mentioning Andreas Düben, your mentioning it has led me to what is, I think, a  fine discovery from the point of view of music, organ (Norrfjärden) and performance

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2000/apr00/RoyalInstrument.jpg)

Andreas DÜBEN Praeludium Pedaliter Wo Gott der Herr nicht bei uns hält
Melchoir SCHILDT Gleichwie das Feuer Paduaria Lachnymae
Gustav DÜBEN Suite in D minor
A & M DÜBEN Allein Gott in der Höh sei Ehr
Martin DÜBEN Praeluium Erstanden ist der heiley Christ
ANONYMOUS Frantzösches Liedelein
J.R. RADECK Engellischer Mascharada Courant. Sarand
H. SCHEIDEMANN Englische Mascarada oder Judentanz
M. DÜBEN Praembulum Pedaliter
G. DÜBEN (?) Nun lob, mein Seel, den Herren.

You're welcome. I didn't know that CD, but I have this:


The problem with these rather obscure baroque composers is that more often than not only a few minutes or their music has survived to us. So, you can fit "complete" works by half dozen composers on one CD.  ::) It seems three short organ works just over 10 minutes in all we have from Andreas Düben.  :-X
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: XB-70 Valkyrie on June 04, 2018, 03:04:46 PM
Interesting. I will certainly look into these. I am glad someone gives a Scheidt about this music.

We need another thread (resurrect an old one?) about Sweelinck himself. For months now, I have been enamored by the Radio Netherlands (purple box) set of his complete keyboard works played on various organs and harpsichords. I would like to hear some of this on clavichord and (heresy) piano. Obviously there is the Glenn Gould, but I would be interested in hearing others on piano and possibly playing some myself.

(further OT) I have also been listening to the Sweelinck psalms, and, although exquisitely crafted, these are harder for me to enjoy. For one thing, I don't think that they were written to be listened to back to back for very long.
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: Marc on June 04, 2018, 08:08:37 PM
[...]
We need another thread (resurrect an old one?) about Sweelinck himself. [...]

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,15617.0.html
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: Mandryka on June 04, 2018, 09:39:53 PM
There are three recordings which contain substantial amounts of music by Melchior Schildt, played by Leon Berben, Annette Richards and Friedhelm Flamme. All three bring their own slants on this attractive music.

All of these recordings contain fillers by other composers, there just isn’t enough music available by Schildt to fill a whole CD.

By temperament Schildt had a reputation for being a fiery, violent and difficult character, with strong and sometimes rather eccentric views. None of this comes out in the performances on these recordings, for better or for worse.


(https://www.hbdirect.com/coverm/thumbnails/4026798111212.pt01.jpg)



Once I start listening to this recording of music by Melchior Schildt played by Leon Berben at the Tangermünde Scherer, I can’t stop. This is mainly because the music, which, benefits IMO very much from the meantone tuning of the organ, is coloured with dusky shades of grey by Berben. The recording quality is wonderfully soft and sweet, it’s a great piece of sound engineering. The music is affecting, as befits the reputation of the composer. The interpretations are articulate, but not IMO overly so. I very much enjoy this recording,

(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/175/MI0001175012.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

The playing here by Annette Richards is also  commendable.It lacks the interior nuanced quality of Berben’s shades of grey - like a Rembrandt etching -  which I find irresistible. But it is partly compensated for by her choices of bright and contrasted colours. The organ at Roskikde, which no doubt Schildt knew, is equally tuned, and I wonder whether it would have been in his day.

(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/180/MI0001180180.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)


Friedhelm Flamme choses the organ at St.-Bartholomäus-Kirche in Dornum Germany. His registrations, and indeed his performances, show a sort of unnuanced and unsubtle nativity, he simplifies the music sometimes and giving it a quasi-folkloric quality. This is the recording I find the least rewarding of the three, I don’t like it.

Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: Que on June 04, 2018, 09:43:54 PM
What can I say?

I greatly admire Léon Berben and thoroughly dislike Friedhelm Flamme, so you must be right on the mark... :D

Q
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: Mandryka on August 13, 2018, 11:59:38 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71ADM1LMegL._SY355_.jpg)

I want to make a post in praise of Julia Brown, whose Scheidemann vol 4 I’ve been enjoying all day.

The first thing to say about her is that she is spiritual, which is exactly what this CD of mostly liturgical music needs. She plays slowly and expressively, so the complexity and the expressive profundity of the music can be savoured. She is brilliant at registration, the registrations are sweet and colourful, but her genius consists less in that than in her knack for using registration to enhance the musical affects.

The spirituality which I talked of must come from this combination of expressiveness and just tempi. She makes the music seem  to be, paradoxically, both alive and both still. The still point of the turning  world.

Pupil of Wolfgang Rubsam, you can hear his influence I think, both in the desire to be  expressive  and to avoid trying to impress with virtuosity - she’s not a musician for people who want a quick thrill. You can also hear it in her tempos, and, occasionally, in her rhythmic rubato.

(Is this the way to play Stylus Fantasticus, the way to play Buxtehude? The question remains unanswered, but it has to be an interesting avenew to explore.)

And the music - well it contains two magnificats which Julia Brown makes sound like summits of the form to me. Scheidemann is every bit the equal of Sweelinck at echoes in the 5th.  Fabulous organ too boot, with pipes which sound almost old, pipes with character.

Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: (: premont :) on August 13, 2018, 12:43:43 PM
The playing here by Annette Richards is also  commendable.It lacks the interior nuanced quality of Berben’s shades of grey - like a Rembrandt etching -  which I find irresistible. But it is partly compensated for by her choices of bright and contrasted colours. The organ at Roskikde, which no doubt Schildt knew, is equally tuned, and I wonder whether it would have been in his day.

No, it is tuned unequally with four pure fifths, according to the Marcussen page here;

http://marcussen-son.dk/orgler/roskilde-domkirke-·-hovedorgel/


Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: Mandryka on August 13, 2018, 01:01:49 PM
No, it is tuned unequal with four pure fifths, according to the Marcussen page here;

http://marcussen-son.dk/orgler/roskilde-domkirke-·-hovedorgel/

Well done, I was confusing it with the choir organ

http://marcussen-son.dk/en/orgler/roskilde-domkirke-%C2%B7-choir-organ/
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: Mandryka on August 23, 2018, 01:49:25 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61BrZj5FuTL.jpg) (http://www.orgelnieuws.nl/wp-content/uploads/Wolfgang-Zerer-Kantens.jpg)

Elke Bestehorn plays Scheidt's Varum Betrubst du Dich mein Herz, from the Tabulatura Nova, on the Compenius organ. It's outstanding. I think there's only one other recording of this, by Zerer in Kantens, where he uses some imaginatively colourful  registrations and is quite introspective through most of it. Bestehorn seems very much "in the zone" - she communicates an infectious sense of her joy in performance, and that's good.  As far as I can see Raml didn't record this one.

Going back to the Scheidt again I feel the same way about Bestehorn. However I have found Raml’s recording, and a beautiful performance of about half of the verses by Harald Vogel. And one I didn’t like at all, by Helmut Walcha.

(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Vogel-H-R01a%5BOrganeum-CD%5D.jpg)

I feel sufficiently inspired by the way Vogel plays Scheidt to want to seek out his other recording at the Aa church, does anyone have it? Can I have an upload?

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51todmU%2BXwL._SX466_.jpg)
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: Mandryka on April 29, 2019, 03:47:32 AM
(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/t_900/5400439004009.jpg?1556097148)



Jacob Praetorius clearly learned a lot from Sweelinck, in particular the art of creating variations by divisions and that in the context of great lyricism. Foccroulle loves the reeds on the Lübeck Stellwagen and he doesn’t hesitate to show them off - that alone makes for a distinctive sound, something which is a valuable complement to Leon Berben’s weightier and more flamboyant JP recording, and indeed William Porter's sweet and serious Jacob Praetorius.  No chant, colourful without being gaudy, intimate I’d say, like Porter in that respect, well recorded.

I haven’t had the chance to hear the Schildt yet.
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: Mandryka on September 03, 2019, 11:04:36 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91pRfuCH7TL._SS500_.jpg)

After thoroughly enjoying Friedhelm Flamme’s Johann Praetorius CD I decided to play the end of his series of North German organ composers for CPO, the recording dedicated to Scheidemann.

The thing to say before all else, is that the programming is really audacious. Basically he starts the CD with a sequence of 12 preludes played as a cycle, like Chopin! And what you realise when you hear them presented like this, is the sheer inventiveness of the music, that Scheidemann was far from being trapped in any sort  formulaic post-Sweelinck approach to music. For that alone the recording deserves to be cherished.

And there’s more.

The organ.  St. Levin, Harbke  Germany. It has parts that go back to the c16 and I think you can hear it - this sounds like a renaissance organ. And that, I wager, inspires Flamme’s style, or maybe just fits Flamme’s default style. Because the the simple one dimensional approach to music making which is part of Flamme’s trademark sounds good with the delicate, ancient sounding registers of the instrument.


And there’s more.

The set of chorales on the recording includes one which, I suggest, is one of the high points of Scheidemann interpretation on record. Komm Heilige Geist Herre Gott. Here Flamme’s registrations are nothing short of brilliant. This is something that bioluminescentsquid may well enjoy too.

I can see two other discs at Harbke Schlosskirche, Reinhard Kluth in the Fagott Scheidt, and a recording by Ablitzer called Groningen 1596. I shall have to listen to these soon, but I can see I’ll have a problem because the Ablitzer has disappeared without trace! Found it.
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on September 03, 2019, 02:32:17 PM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91pRfuCH7TL._SS500_.jpg)

After thoroughly enjoying Friedhelm Flamme’s Johann Praetorius CD I decided to play the end of his series of North German organ composers for CPO, the recording dedicated to Scheidemann.

The thing to say before all else, is that the programming is really audacious. Basically he starts the CD with a sequence of 12 preludes played as a cycle, like Chopin! And what you realise when you hear them presented like this, is the sheer inventiveness of the music, that Scheidemann was far from being trapped in any sort  formulaic post-Sweelinck approach to music. For that alone the recording deserves to be cherished.

And there’s more.

The organ.  St. Levin, Harbke  Germany. It has parts that go back to the c16 and I think you can hear it - this sounds like a renaissance organ. And that, I wager, inspires Flamme’s style, or maybe just fits Flamme’s default style. Because the the simple one dimensional approach to music making which is part of Flamme’s trademark sounds good with the delicate, ancient sounding registers of the instrument.


And there’s more.

The set of chorales on the recording includes one which, I suggest, is one of the high points of Scheidemann interpretation on record. Komm Heilige Geist Herre Gott. Here Flamme’s registrations are nothing short of brilliant. This is something that bioluminescentsquid may well enjoy too.

I can see two other discs at Harbke Schlosskirche, Reinhard Kluth in the Fagott Scheidt, and a recording by Ablitzer called Groningen 1596. I shall have to listen to these soon, but I can see I’ll have a problem because the Ablitzer has disappeared without trace! Found it.

Gröningen 1596 (not to be confused with the Dutch Groningen!) is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SmvDqgk-YM
If you'd like FLAC files, I have them.
I'll write more soon.
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: Mandryka on September 04, 2019, 01:39:57 AM
Gröningen 1596 (not to be confused with the Dutch Groningen!) is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SmvDqgk-YM



Ahhh.


(not to be confused with the Dutch Groningen!)


Ahhhh


If you'd like FLAC files, I have them.


Ahhhhh.

Yes please!
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on September 04, 2019, 10:35:01 AM
Ahhh.


Ahhhh

Ahhhhh.

Yes please!

FLACs incoming.

The story behind it is that in 1596, Duke Heinrich Julius of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel (who later would also commission the Compenius organ now in Denmark) had a large organ of 59 stops with lots of experimental features (huge pedal division, tons of interesting reeds and flutes) built for his private chapel in Gröningen (Central Germany) by a certain David Beck. He then organized a meeting of over 50 different organists (many of them Sweelinck pupils) to inaugurate the organ, including the Praetoriuses and Hassler.

The organ was still well-regarded in the 18th century. Werkmeister wrote about it, but also noted how it didn't live up to 18th century expectations of e.g. being able to combine stops of the same pitch. Eventually, the organ was moved to Halberstadt and replaced by a run-of-the-mill Romantic organ in the 19th century. Right now, the cases (and few preserved pipes) of the organ are spread across two churches, and Ablitzer is head of an initiative to reunite the cases and reconstruct the long-gone organ. I guess this disc was made as part of the fundraiser effort.

(https://www.praetorius-beckorgel.de/img/empore/endvariante.jpg)
A photoshop reconstruction of the original facade of the organ :)

Anyways, I'd like to hear your thoughts on it. I like the recording, but nothing really stands out to me in it.
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: Mandryka on September 07, 2019, 07:41:48 PM
FLACs incoming.

The story behind it is that in 1596, Duke Heinrich Julius of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel (who later would also commission the Compenius organ now in Denmark) had a large organ of 59 stops with lots of experimental features (huge pedal division, tons of interesting reeds and flutes) built for his private chapel in Gröningen (Central Germany) by a certain David Beck. He then organized a meeting of over 50 different organists (many of them Sweelinck pupils) to inaugurate the organ, including the Praetoriuses and Hassler.

The organ was still well-regarded in the 18th century. Werkmeister wrote about it, but also noted how it didn't live up to 18th century expectations of e.g. being able to combine stops of the same pitch. Eventually, the organ was moved to Halberstadt and replaced by a run-of-the-mill Romantic organ in the 19th century. Right now, the cases (and few preserved pipes) of the organ are spread across two churches, and Ablitzer is head of an initiative to reunite the cases and reconstruct the long-gone organ. I guess this disc was made as part of the fundraiser effort.

(https://www.praetorius-beckorgel.de/img/empore/endvariante.jpg)
A photoshop reconstruction of the original facade of the organ :)

Anyways, I'd like to hear your thoughts on it. I like the recording, but nothing really stands out to me in it.

The thing that’s standing out for me on this organ is the extraordinary Hassler Magnificat. Hassler is such a strange composer, at times the music sounds almost gothic to me, and at times modern almost. I intend to explore his magnificats a bit, there isn’t much on record - Ablitzer, Raml, Katzschke, Bembreck, Böcker (which I’ve just ordered) Krumbach (which I can’t find)

Ablitzer is a very “poised” performer here and elsewhere, this is one of his recordings which I think is genuinely valuable for the organ and the sound and the programme. One thing I’d quite like to hear is his Heredia CD - do you have it? If you do, would you let me have it? It’s OOP.
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on September 14, 2019, 11:33:27 PM
The thing that’s standing out for me on this organ is the extraordinary Hassler Magnificat. Hassler is such a strange composer, at times the music sounds almost gothic to me, and at times modern almost. I intend to explore his magnificats a bit, there isn’t much on record - Ablitzer, Raml, Katzschke, Bembreck, Böcker (which I’ve just ordered) Krumbach (which I can’t find)

Ablitzer is a very “poised” performer here and elsewhere, this is one of his recordings which I think is genuinely valuable for the organ and the sound and the programme. One thing I’d quite like to hear is his Heredia CD - do you have it? If you do, would you let me have it? It’s OOP.

I just listened to the Hassler, and I think it is indeed one of the high points of the recording!

Another interesting Magnificat of Hassler's, now played on an Italian organ (12 stops, 1/5 of the size of the Gröninger organ!) I really hear what you mean by Gothic-modern here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAgs4lJBQAk

Here, if youtube allows you to see it, is another recording containing music by Hassler by a certain Michael Novenko. Played on a 16th century organ, the oldest in the Czech republic. I think it's wonderful playing, very engaging for both player and listener.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_eVRNgfwvo&list=OLAK5uy_nWP9AOv7FlLPJGjLzJ3RpFtcLt6XCKuHc
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: Mandryka on October 20, 2019, 06:21:58 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/A1X2CYCGbeL._SY355_.jpg)

A thought provoking suggestion as to Sweelinck’s importance, and the response of his pupils, taken from the 2019 Foccroulle Schildt and Praetorius cd pictured above.

Quote

The essential quality that Sweelinck seemed to have passed on to his pupils was the ability to vary the weight and density of their polyphony, to make their music breathe and to highlight a solo line on a separate keyboard, to colour the music with chromaticism and to create passages with diminutions that had been inspired in particular by John Bull in England and by the Venetian school in general.

Bearing all of these influences in mind, we can only be struck by the arrival and development of a new style of art that dared to go far beyond its earlier models. The pedalboard was used to a much greater extent by the above German composers than by Sweelinck or Bull; they gave the pedals a much more definite role, whilst their experiments in sonic perspective and spatialisation went far beyond the echo techniques in Sweelinck’s fantasias. Sweelinck’s reserve — or propriety — gave way to a growing need for expressivity. This new expressive intensity can be heard throughout the entire range of the keyboards in Praetorius’ fantasia on Durch Adams Fall and in the glittering virtuosity that concludes the second verse of Schildt’s Magnificat: this is no longer the sound world of the Renaissance, but rather the early stages of the Baroque aesthetic, a style of composition that aimed at moving the listener and at expressing the most contrasting affects. This expressive and rhetorical dimension became more and more profound and reached its greatest profundity in the works of Buxtehude, Reincken, Lübeck and Bruhns. Although the works of Praetorius, Schildt and Scheidemann offer occasional moments of contemplation, this was not their primary aim: they have left us important and admirable works that arouse not only a listener’s emotions but are also a source of delight.

As far as the recording is concerned, it’s wonderful to have it of course, and Foccroulle’s restraint is much appreciated. My only slight reservation is a certain lack of atmosphere in the recorded sound. I want to be able to hear the cathedral reverberations, and I can’t hear any of that in this recording. For me that’s a bit of a disappointment.
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on October 20, 2019, 08:47:40 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/A1X2CYCGbeL._SY355_.jpg)

A thought provoking suggestion as to Sweelinck’s importance, and the response of his pupils, taken from the 2019 Foccroulle Schildt and Praetorius cd pictured above.

As far as the recording is concerned, it’s wonderful to have it of course, and Foccroulle’s restraint is much appreciated. My only slight reservation is a certain lack of atmosphere in the recorded sound. I want to be able to hear the cathedral reverberations, and I can’t hear any of that in this recording. For me that’s a bit of a disappointment.

I've been there, Lübeck St. Jacobi, and while it's a large reverberant church it isn't exactly cathedral dimension. And it's so chock-full of that wonderful German Renaissance church furniture that breaks up the reverberation significantly. The Stellwagen organ sort of gently "perfumes" the room like a great organ should, I sat near the altar (probably the furthest you can get from the organ in the church) and it still sounded clear and good. And I think the recording reflects that well, it's a very good acoustic that adds space to the sound, but doesn't induce muddiness. Certainly the Stellwagen (and the main organ!) wouldn't sound half as good without it.


Anyways, for the Schildt magnificat I found this recording that I quite liked. Very bold registrations, especially in the 2nd verse.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaPs9W9jWe0

How do you think of Leonhardt's version of the Magnificat on the Stade Schnitger organ? I remember you sent me that disc.
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: Mandryka on October 21, 2019, 04:41:37 AM
I’ll listen to the Leonhardt and I’ll post if I’ve got anything to say, but the one I think you may like, Squid, is Friedhelm Flamme - he’s a bit like Ross in Frescobaldi and Koopman in Forqueray  >:D

I’ve got a vague memory of a lovely performance of it by my favourite organist, Bernard Winsemius.
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on October 21, 2019, 04:47:59 PM
I’ll listen to the Leonhardt and I’ll post if I’ve got anything to say, but the one I think you may like, Squid, is Friedhelm Flamme - he’s a bit like Ross in Frescobaldi and Koopman in Forqueray  >:D

I’ve got a vague memory of a lovely performance of it by my favourite organist, Bernard Winsemius.

I do like Flamme's recording - dry, yet beautiful. Wonderful (and seldom recorded - the dry room, maybe?) organ with pipes dating back to the early 16th century.
His "Herzlich lieb hab' ich dich, o mein Herr" is also nice.

I think his Schildt recording and his H. Praetorius recording at Tangermünde are the best out of his "Organ Works of the North German Baroque" series. 
The comparison with Ross/Frescobaldi is apt, but why Koopman/Forqueray? I like that recording, but the only thing that comes to mind when I think of it is seductive harpsichord-smashing :)

I forgot about the Winsemius, will check it out. I think it's in the first of his Sweelinck : his sources, his influence series, on the Nieuwe kerk organ.
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: Mandryka on October 21, 2019, 09:56:47 PM
I bracketed Ross, Flamme and Koopman together because they’re all fast and they’re all three a bit lacking in refinement and delicacy. I’d quite like to hear this

(https://cdn.simplesite.com/i/b8/07/284571208693647288/i284571214411636430._szw1280h1280_.jpg)

The smashiest of harpsichord players is the duo Fortin/Sempé.
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on October 22, 2019, 11:06:31 PM
I bracketed Ross, Flamme and Koopman together because they’re all fast and they’re all three a bit lacking in refinement and delicacy. I’d quite like to hear this

(https://cdn.simplesite.com/i/b8/07/284571208693647288/i284571214411636430._szw1280h1280_.jpg)

The smashiest of harpsichord players is the duo Fortin/Sempé.

I just re-listened to the Flamme, and I understand what you mean with the comparison, how driving and muscular his playing is. And yes, now I actually like it more than Foccroulle. Again, really nice organ in an intimate space where we can really hear it sing - the Lübeck Stellwagen now feels really distant in comparison.

We can get a hint of the Westerbrink here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzdHGwlR6-A But I'm interested in the full disc too, especially the H. Praetorius magnificat on it. I have volume 2, but I think this might be the more interesting organ.

A little bit more on the organ, Böhm on the organ slightly indifferently played but still very nice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlHjuzE_oKk


Edit: the Praetorius I was looking for is posted here - or at least part of it.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRVTqPLO1Y
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: Mandryka on November 30, 2019, 07:33:57 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71AFH%2Bdud5L._SL1200_.jpg)

The Jacob Praetorius here is a seriously major piece of music, it’s given a stonking performance by Harald Vogel at Hamburg, and of course, it’s engineered to state of the art standards. When Vogel’s on form no one’s better for that magical combination of bravura and spirituality., He’s on form here. 

Foccroulle singles out Praetorius’s fantasy on Durch Adams Fall as a high point of the Sweelinck/Bull school of composing for organ, and he’s probably quite right to do so. I think Vater unser in himmelreich, though (or better, because) not so full of Sweelinck tropes like echos, is no less a high point, a higher point even.

I make no secret of preferring Vogel to Foccroulle.
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: Mandryka on November 30, 2019, 07:54:47 AM
I just re-listened to the Flamme, and I understand what you mean with the comparison, how driving and muscular his playing is. And yes, now I actually like it more than Foccroulle. Again, really nice organ in an intimate space where we can really hear it sing - the Lübeck Stellwagen now feels really distant in comparison.

We can get a hint of the Westerbrink here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzdHGwlR6-A But I'm interested in the full disc too, especially the H. Praetorius magnificat on it. I have volume 2, but I think this might be the more interesting organ.

A little bit more on the organ, Böhm on the organ slightly indifferently played but still very nice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlHjuzE_oKk


Edit: the Praetorius I was looking for is posted here - or at least part of it.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRVTqPLO1Y


I’d be interested to know whether you prefer Flamme or Foccroulle in Jakob Praetorius’s Durch Adams Fall, I like Flamme very much!
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on December 04, 2019, 10:36:33 PM

I’d be interested to know whether you prefer Flamme or Foccroulle in Jakob Praetorius’s Durch Adams Fall, I like Flamme very much!

I've never heard Flamme, just pulled it up and am impressed! Foccroulle's Durch Adams Fall never really impressed me, Flamme sounds much better on the smaller and much more intimate Langwarden organ, where we can hear every nuance and fault of the pipes' speech, even that wind leak on the low A :)

I used to think Flamme Schildt (and maybe Tunder) were his only listenable recordings, but I think this thread is changing my opinion a lot.
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 07, 2019, 09:49:13 PM
As an aside. This thread is going to send me bankrupt !
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on January 03, 2020, 08:24:28 AM
A new discovery - at least for me: Scheidemann's Chorale Fantasia on "Jesus Christus, unser Heiland"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swEA35wvc6k

Scheidemann has usually been for me quite a sunny, graceful, and carefree composer, as accomplished as e.g. Tunder or Weckmann, but certainly less brooding and mystical. But this proves me really, really wrong.

I like Bryndorf's bold registration in the beginning, with the chorale tune sounded out on a 16' pedal reed - most other organists on record seem to start out more timidly on soft principals. But I think she is less successful with sustaining this sense of wonder, discovery and ecstasy throughout, something (having played quite a bit of Tunder and Weckmann) seems quite important in these large North German chorale fantasias, since they can otherwise become a bit long and rambling. But it's a great performance!

Foccroulle is also wonderful on the Scherer organ in Tangermunde. The stop he selects for the solo voice sounds very different depending on the register he plays in, so there is a dialogue effect between the different sounds as the solo runs throughout the keyboard. Also more drive with a faster tempo, and a purer meantone temperament - I might like this more than Bryndorf.
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: Mandryka on January 03, 2020, 01:21:37 PM
A new discovery - at least for me: Scheidemann's Chorale Fantasia on "Jesus Christus, unser Heiland"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swEA35wvc6k

Scheidemann has usually been for me quite a sunny, graceful, and carefree composer, as accomplished as e.g. Tunder or Weckmann, but certainly less brooding and mystical. But this proves me really, really wrong.

I like Bryndorf's bold registration in the beginning, with the chorale tune sounded out on a 16' pedal reed - most other organists on record seem to start out more timidly on soft principals. But I think she is less successful with sustaining this sense of wonder, discovery and ecstasy throughout, something (having played quite a bit of Tunder and Weckmann) seems quite important in these large North German chorale fantasias, since they can otherwise become a bit long and rambling. But it's a great performance!

Foccroulle is also wonderful on the Scherer organ in Tangermunde. The stop he selects for the solo voice sounds very different depending on the register he plays in, so there is a dialogue effect between the different sounds as the solo runs throughout the keyboard. Also more drive with a faster tempo, and a purer meantone temperament - I might like this more than Bryndorf.

Love it -- but someone who doesn't agree with you about it being brooding etc is William Donglos -- what do all you organists make of this?

https://www.youtube.com/v/2n2l01DJx2w

and then there's Coudurier, who seems to play with a disarming directness -- there's no sense of anything mystical at all, it's just cheerful, joyful, simple. I'm not sure how well it works. I can't see it on youtube unfortunately.

Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on January 03, 2020, 09:17:12 PM
Love it -- but someone who doesn't agree with you about it being brooding etc is William Donglos -- what do all you organists make of this?

https://www.youtube.com/v/2n2l01DJx2w

and then there's Coudurier, who seems to play with a disarming directness -- there's no sense of anything mystical at all, it's just cheerful, joyful, simple. I'm not sure how well it works. I can't see it on youtube unfortunately.

Coudurier is wonderful! He does have a rather direct and deadpan delivery, but it's marvelous how he alternates between the mournful sound of the Sesquialtera stop and the unnatural, guttural sound of a reed (8' Trichter regal?), as in a dialogue. He also is good at building up enough suspense throughout the piece that it remains gripping and the ending is satisfying.

I listened to a bit of Donglos, I do like it since it's a new perspective on the piece - when playing these pieces, I always imagine something like this, as if I'm playing a cornetto, recorder, dulcian or singing. It would be very interesting to see something by Tunder - in Dich habe ich gehoffet, or the large Christ lag in Todesbanden fantasy treated the same way. But the ending coda section (very Tunderian - running echoes chasing each other while the pedal sings out the chorale underneath) seems less successful to me, I miss all the bizzare sounds that a 17th century organ can produce.
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on January 21, 2020, 09:37:27 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71AFH%2Bdud5L._SL1200_.jpg)

The Jacob Praetorius here is a seriously major piece of music, it’s given a stonking performance by Harald Vogel at Hamburg, and of course, it’s engineered to state of the art standards. When Vogel’s on form no one’s better for that magical combination of bravura and spirituality., He’s on form here. 

Foccroulle singles out Praetorius’s fantasy on Durch Adams Fall as a high point of the Sweelinck/Bull school of composing for organ, and he’s probably quite right to do so. I think Vater unser in himmelreich, though (or better, because) not so full of Sweelinck tropes like echos, is no less a high point, a higher point even.

I make no secret of preferring Vogel to Foccroulle.

What do you make of the Praetorius Vater Unser recording by Vogel here, this time on the significantly smaller 1619 organ in Osteel?
https://www.concertzender.nl/programma/serie_jordi_savall_410265/
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: Mandryka on January 22, 2020, 12:44:33 PM
What do you make of the Praetorius Vater Unser recording by Vogel here, this time on the significantly smaller 1619 organ in Osteel?
https://www.concertzender.nl/programma/serie_jordi_savall_410265/

Tomorrow!
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on March 22, 2020, 10:32:17 PM
(https://d24jnm9llkb1ub.cloudfront.net/icpn/8717775551287/8717775551287-cover-225.jpg)

A rerelease of an out of print van Laar recording. I listened to the Magnificat; van Laar's playing is not particularly expressive or dramatic but he uses the organ very well, he registers to show off all kinds of colorful stops of the Norden Schnitger organ and even manages to squeeze out some novel-sounding combinations on this frequently recorded organ. (e.g. the interesting tierce solo registration in the 2nd verse of the Magnificat)
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: Marc on March 22, 2020, 10:40:42 PM
(https://d24jnm9llkb1ub.cloudfront.net/icpn/8717775551287/8717775551287-cover-225.jpg)

A rerelease of an out of print van Laar recording. I listened to the Magnificat; van Laar's playing is not particularly expressive or dramatic but he uses the organ very well, he registers to show off all kinds of colorful stops of the Norden Schnitger organ and even manages to squeeze out some novel-sounding combinations on this frequently recorded organ. (e.g. the interesting tierce solo registration in the 2nd verse of the Magnificat)

I don't have this issue, but your description of Van Laar's playing sounds apt. I recall his concerts as being very colourful, and with a more bright and harpsichord-like approach, even in the heavier works.
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on March 23, 2020, 04:25:14 PM
I don't have this issue, but your description of Van Laar's playing sounds apt. I recall his concerts as being very colourful, and with a more bright and harpsichord-like approach, even in the heavier works.

Here's a live recording of him playing the famous 2nd verse magnificat on the Aakerk organ. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je4Myi1Fl8A&feature=share
I like it a lot too, conceptually similar to the one on CD, but with a bit of registrational rethinking.
The CD is on spotify now, at least: https://open.spotify.com/album/7qtxEl71XW2Do0ajDjDvpD

VvL can be a bit hit-or-miss, I think - for instance I didn't really like his Tunder that he recorded with Pieter Dirksen, a bit too static. Same with his Leipzig Chorales.
I do guiltily admit to really liking what I heard of his Lustig recording in Appingedam.
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: Mandryka on March 25, 2020, 01:24:51 AM
Here's a live recording of him playing the famous 2nd verse magnificat on the Aakerk organ. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je4Myi1Fl8A&feature=share
I like it a lot too, conceptually similar to the one on CD, but with a bit of registrational rethinking.
The CD is on spotify now, at least: https://open.spotify.com/album/7qtxEl71XW2Do0ajDjDvpD

VvL can be a bit hit-or-miss, I think - for instance I didn't really like his Tunder that he recorded with Pieter Dirksen, a bit too static. Same with his Leipzig Chorales.
I do guiltily admit to really liking what I heard of his Lustig recording in Appingedam.

I find Melchior Schildt such a congenial composer and the Norden Schnitger is such a congenial organ that it was a great pleasure to listen to Van Laar’s recording. It’s well recorded here, the organ.

I’m very much in agreement with Foccroulle, at least I think it was him who said this, that Sweelinck’s pupils, Schildt, Praetorius etc, outsweelinck Sweelinck.


Quote from: Shakespeare in Hamlet
I could haue such a Fellow whipt for o're-doing Termagant: it outHerod's Herod. Pray you auoid it.
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: (: premont :) on March 25, 2020, 03:13:59 AM
Quote from: Mandryka link=topic=28264.msg1276510#msg1276510 date=

I’m very much in agreement with Foccroulle, at least I think it was him who said this, that Sweelinck’s pupils, Schildt, Praetorius etc, outsweelinck Sweelinck.

I always find it difficult to value the relative greatness of Early music composers, because much of their music have been lost.
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: Marc on March 25, 2020, 09:04:16 AM
Here's a live recording of him playing the famous 2nd verse magnificat on the Aakerk organ. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je4Myi1Fl8A&feature=share
I like it a lot too, conceptually similar to the one on CD, but with a bit of registrational rethinking.
The CD is on spotify now, at least: https://open.spotify.com/album/7qtxEl71XW2Do0ajDjDvpD

VvL can be a bit hit-or-miss, I think - for instance I didn't really like his Tunder that he recorded with Pieter Dirksen, a bit too static. Same with his Leipzig Chorales.
I do guiltily admit to really liking what I heard of his Lustig recording in Appingedam.

Thanks for the YouTube link... I enjoyed it (again). The heavy breathing you can hear sometimes coming from the other end of the church, that could be me. :laugh:
I.c. Lustig: I personally do not believe in so-called guilty pleasures. A pleasure is a pleasure. :)
By the way: I like that Lustig disc, too. It's fun.
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on March 27, 2020, 03:46:06 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEXFlicyd2c

A very "old-fashioned" recording from the 50's (on a Neo-Baroque Paul Ott organ, no less) of Scheidt's Fortune my foe variations that I found to be very intimate and moving.
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: Mandryka on March 27, 2020, 09:24:02 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEXFlicyd2c

A very "old-fashioned" recording from the 50's (on a Neo-Baroque Paul Ott organ, no less) of Scheidt's Fortune my foe variations that I found to be very intimate and moving.

Yes, and the surface noise from the LP gives it the aura of a treasured artefact from the lost golden age that never was. He’s helped by the wonderful tune of Fortune My Foe, one of my favourite tunes ever. Even (especially?) a drunk whistling it makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand in end.
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: vers la flamme on October 18, 2020, 05:01:44 PM
Just dipping my toes in the water here, but I have been listening to works by Scheidemann (organ music—did he write anything else?) and Sweelinck himself (harpsichord music) thanks to two great Naxos discs with Julia Brown and Glen Wilson, respectively. Is there anything I absolutely must hear?
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: Scion7 on October 18, 2020, 05:57:29 PM
Scheidemann (organ music—did he write anything else?)

Neither he, nor his father - David, wrote anything but organ music according to the New Grove.
Heinrich's list of works:

keyboard
Chorale arrs. (org): Allein zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ; Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott: ed. K. Beckmann, Zwei Choralfantasien (Wiesbaden, 1992); A solus ortus cardine; Aus tiefer Not schrei ich zu dir; Christ lag in Todesbanden; Erbarm dich mein, o Herre Gott; Es spricht der unweisen Mund wohl; Gott sei gelobet und gebenedeiet; Herr Christ, der einig Gottes Sohn; 2 In dich hab ich gehoffet, Herr; Jesus Christus, unser Heiland; Komm heiliger Geist, Herre Gott; Lobet den Herren, denn er ist sehr freundlich; Mensch, willst du leben seliglich; Nun bitten wir den heiligen Geist; O Gott, wir danken deiner Güt; 3 Vater unser im Himmelreich; Wir glauben all an einen Gott; 2 Ky; O lux beata

Trinitas: all O i; 7 Mag, I–VI, VIII toni, O ii; O lux beata Trinitas, D-CZ (frag.); Te Deum laudamus, CZ (frag.)

Motet arrs. (org): Alleluja, Lauden dicite Deo nostro; Angelus ad pastores ait; 2 Benedicam Dominum; Confitemini Domino; De ore prudentis procedit mel; Dic nobis Maria; Dixit Maria ad angelum; Ego sum panis vivus; Omnia quae fecisti nobis Domine; Surrexit pastor bonus; Verbum caro factum est: all J and B; Jesu, wollst uns weisen, O i
12 praeambula, C, 6 in d, 2 in e, 2 in F, g: O iii, 1 in H; 2 canzonas, F, G: O iii; Fuga, d, O iii; 2 toccatas, C, G: O iii, 1 in H; Fantasia, G, O iii, H

Secular variations and dances (hpd), all H: 5 allemandes, 2 with courantes, 1 with variation, 3 in d, c, G; 2 ballett, d, F; 12 courantes, 7 with variations, 7 in d, 2 in F, 2 in a, g; galliard with variation, d; 2 mascheratas, C, g; Betrübet ist zu dieser Frist; Mio cor se vera sei Salamanca, Madrigal
Title: Re: Sweelinck’s pupils: Scheidemann, Jacob Praetorius, Scheidt, Siefert, Schildt
Post by: Mandryka on October 18, 2020, 07:54:28 PM
Just dipping my toes in the water here, but I have been listening to works by Scheidemann (organ music—did he write anything else?)

There’s a lot of harpsichord music attributed to Scheidemann, the “standard” recording was by Pieter Dirksen, but Joseph  Rassam has also recorded it all. I haven’t heard the music for years and years, and I don’t think I’ve ever heard the Rassam.

Is there anything I absolutely must hear?

Yes. You absolutely must hear everything on record of music by Sweelinck and Scheidemann.

Just speaking personally, the thing I remember which made me decide to take Sweelinck very seriously as a composer was hearing Bob Van Asperen play some fantasias on a harpsichord, on the big NL set. The music is really complex counterpoint, what Asperen did was very formative for me: I kind of learned how to listen to this sort of stuff, the penny dropped.


And again, just speaking personally, the organist who I love the most with this sort of music is Bernard Winsemius, there’s a whole bunch of recordings called “Sweelinck, his sources and his influences.”

You could do worse than to explore what Leonhardt left.