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The Music Room => Composer Discussion => Topic started by: Harry on April 17, 2007, 06:04:57 AM

Title: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Harry on April 17, 2007, 06:04:57 AM
Since I try to get a picture together of this composer, and not well versed into his music, I would like to invite some suggestions, and recommendations which works to tackle first, which works are must haves, and interpretation issues.
Since there is no Hartmann thread yet, I thought this was a good idea.
This is one recording I have of his music.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: karlhenning on April 17, 2007, 06:22:51 AM
I have not heard his recordings, Harry, but Ingo Metzmacher has recorded the entire Hartmann cycle.  It looks still a fully-priced three-disc set:

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/42/429363.JPG)

Very much enjoyed the Fourth Symphony (for strings) when he conducted that in Boston a couple of years ago.

We've also got the Fifth Symphony on a wind band disc, performed by the Eastman Wind Ensemble (I seem to remember our discussing this a bit, back when the disc first arrived).

Obviously, I could not comment on it yet, but I am looking forward to a Telarc disc with the Symphonies Nos. 1 (Versuch eines Requiems) & 6 and teh iconic Miserae:

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/32/328424.jpg)
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Todd on April 17, 2007, 06:30:22 AM
I would like to invite some suggestions, and recommendations which works to tackle first, which works are must haves


The Metzmacher set is as close as a must-have as I've heard.  The CPO disc of the string quartets is superb, too.  The Botstein disc (Telarc) is in great sound, but Metzmacher trumps him.  For the Concerto Funebre, the below disc is quite fine:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00004XPJR.01._SCMZZZZZZZ_V45593954_AA130_.jpg)

(It's on ECM if the writing is too small.)

If you can find the Vox twofer with Susanne Lautenbacher playing the piece, grab it, because her reading is better.  Also, the recent Kubelik Original Masters set has a couple Hartmann symphonies from his DG recordings, though Kubelik can also be found on the Wergo symphony cycle.  Ferdinand Leitner's recording of the Sixth symphony is well worth hunting down, too.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Don on April 17, 2007, 06:32:23 AM
Excellent composer, and these are my recordings:

Complete Symphonies - Metzmacher/EMI
Piano Works - Mauser/Virgin Classics (likely oop)
String Quartets - Pellegrini/CPO
Syms. 1 and 6/Miserae - Botstein/Telarc
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Harry on April 17, 2007, 06:41:37 AM
I have not heard his recordings, Harry, but Ingo Metzmacher has recorded the entire Hartmann cycle.  It looks still a fully-priced three-disc set:

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/42/429363.JPG)

Very much enjoyed the Fourth Symphony (for strings) when he conducted that in Boston a couple of years ago.

We've also got the Fifth Symphony on a wind band disc, performed by the Eastman Wind Ensemble (I seem to remember our discussing this a bit, back when the disc first arrived).

Obviously, I could not comment on it yet, but I am looking forward to a Telarc disc with the Symphonies Nos. 1 (Versuch eines Requiems) & 6 and teh iconic Miserae:

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/32/328424.jpg)

Thanks Karl, I thought as much that the Metzmacher renditions were must haves. The Eastman wind Ensemble looks good too.
And of course the Telarc recording is also interesting.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Harry on April 17, 2007, 06:45:02 AM

The Metzmacher set is as close as a must-have as I've heard.  The CPO disc of the string quartets is superb, too.  The Botstein disc (Telarc) is in great sound, but Metzmacher trumps him.  For the Concerto Funebre, the below disc is quite fine:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00004XPJR.01._SCMZZZZZZZ_V45593954_AA130_.jpg)

(It's on ECM if the writing is too small.)

If you can find the Vox twofer with Susanne Lautenbacher playing the piece, grab it, because her reading is better.  Also, the recent Kubelik Original Masters set has a couple Hartmann symphonies from his DG recordings, though Kubelik can also be found on the Wergo symphony cycle.  Ferdinand Leitner's recording of the Sixth symphony is well worth hunting down, too.

Well the Metzmacher did already make it on my list, the ECM too, and the Vox recordings I will try to find. I have seen the Wergo recordings also, it has all the symphonies too, but what to think of these recordings?
Leitner I have seen too, but would like to have some more infor about it.
Thanks Todd.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Harry on April 17, 2007, 06:46:00 AM
Excellent composer, and these are my recordings:

Complete Symphonies - Metzmacher/EMI
Piano Works - Mauser/Virgin Classics (likely oop)
String Quartets - Pellegrini/CPO
Syms. 1 and 6/Miserae - Botstein/Telarc

Thanks Don, it seems there is a consensus about the Metzmacher.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Don on April 17, 2007, 06:57:56 AM
Well the Metzmacher did already make it on my list, the ECM too, and the Vox recordings I will try to find. I have seen the Wergo recordings also, it has all the symphonies too, but what to think of these recordings?

I also don't know what to think of the Wergo set, but I missed a golden opportunity to acquire it a few years ago.  The store had it listed at $15.99, and I passed on it.  What a jerk I was!
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Harry on April 17, 2007, 06:59:57 AM
I also don't know what to think of the Wergo set, but I missed a golden opportunity to acquire it a few years ago.  The store had it listed at $15.99, and I passed on it.  What a jerk I was!

Blimey, that was cheap my friend, what a shame. :P
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: CS on April 17, 2007, 07:54:32 AM
I also recommend the Metzmacher (and, also, haven't heard the Wergo). But for the best symphony no. 6, with an electrifying performance and great sonics, you must get the Leitner:

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/46/467412.JPG)

As was mentioned, this disc is well worth investigating:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00004XPJR.01._SCMZZZZZZZ_V45593954_AA130_.jpg)

and so is the Zehetmair Quartett disc, which gives a very fierce and power-driven performance of his first string quartet, amazingly played mind you (coupled with a similarly edgy performance of Bartok's 4th string quartet). If you know and like the Bartok, you should find something to enjoy in the Hartmann, as he certainly does not try and hide the influence it had on him.

-CS
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Harry on April 17, 2007, 08:00:42 AM
I also recommend the Metzmacher (and, also, haven't heard the Wergo). But for the best symphony no. 6, with an electrifying performance and great sonics, you must get the Leitner:

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/46/467412.JPG)

As was mentioned, this disc is well worth investigating:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00004XPJR.01._SCMZZZZZZZ_V45593954_AA130_.jpg)

and so is the Zehetmair Quartett disc, which gives a very fierce and power-driven performance of his first string quartet, amazingly played mind you (coupled with a similarly edgy performance of Bartok's 4th string quartet). If you know and like the Bartok, you should find something to enjoy in the Hartmann, as he certainly does not try and hide the influence it had on him.

-CS

Right thank you, the Leitner is on the list. But for now in the string quartets the CPO recording will do just fine, but I keep it in mind. :)
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Robert on April 17, 2007, 08:05:06 AM
Since I try to get a picture together of this composer, and not well versed into his music, I would like to invite some suggestions, and recommendations which works to tackle first, which works are must haves, and interpretation issues.
since there is no Hartmann thread yet, I thought this was a good idea.
This is one recording I have of his music.

Excellent start.....move on to symphony 6...try Leitner B/W Bruckner 6 on hanssler, then perhaps his ecm recording with concerto funebre, sinfonie and kammerkonzert ecm 289 465779-2 that should give you a good sampling before you get into all his symphonies....def worth exploring this dude....
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Harry on April 17, 2007, 08:11:11 AM
Excellent start.....move on to symphony 6...try Leitner B/W Bruckner 6 on hanssler, then perhaps his ecm recording with concerto funebre, sinfonie and kammerkonzert ecm 289 465779-2 that should give you a good sampling before you get into all his symphonies....def worth exploring this dude....

Which I will in this order as you told me.
Had a few samplings of the symphonies, and they are definitively my kind of music. :)
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: CS on April 17, 2007, 08:24:43 AM
Which I will in this order as you told me.
Had a few samplings of the symphonies, and they are definitively my kind of music. :)

For some reason I didn't think it would have been your kind of music. He is hard to crack, employs plenty of dissonance, is rather eclectic in style, and pulls out lots of asymmetric rhythms. Despite the difficulties his music sometimes presents to the listener, I've always maintained that he is fundamentally an emotional composer, and further, one who relies on melody more than one would initially think. Glad you have so far found his music enjoyable. --CS
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Harry on April 17, 2007, 08:36:56 AM
For some reason I didn't think it would have been your kind of music. He is hard to crack, employs plenty of dissonance, is rather eclectic in style, and pulls out lots of asymmetric rhythms. Despite the difficulties his music sometimes presents to the listener, I've always maintained that he is fundamentally an emotional composer, and further, one who relies on melody more than one would initially think. Glad you have so far found his music enjoyable. --CS

I totally agree with your assessment, but why did you think I would not connect to Hartmann?
I have in my collection composers which go much further as Hartmann goes.
Agreed he is not a easy ride, but in the end very rewarding nevertheless.
His SQ are daily fare.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: not edward on April 17, 2007, 09:29:34 AM
Judging by what I've sampled of the Metzmacher Hartmann set (1, 2 and 5) I would regard the Wergo set as a superior option, despite the older sound. On the other hand, I think the Metzmacher Gesangszene (coupled with Miserae and some Dallapiccola) is excellent and superior to the Wergo issue. I've not yet head Leitner in the 6th symphony: really should as it's my favourite Hartmann work so far.

I'm really interested in Marek Janowski's new recording of the Sinfonia tragica and concerto for viola, piano and orchestra. It's coming out on Capriccio this month.

For the Concerto funebre the ECM disc is fine, though I think I marginally prefer Gertler and Ancerl on Supraphon (sadly Ancerl didn't record any other Hartmann, as I think he would have been great at it).

The Zehetmair Quartet's reading of #1 is definitely superior to the one on cpo.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Harry on April 17, 2007, 09:41:33 AM
Judging by what I've sampled of the Metzmacher Hartmann set (1, 2 and 5) I would regard the Wergo set as a superior option, despite the older sound. On the other hand, I think the Metzmacher Gesangszene (coupled with Miserae and some Dallapiccola) is excellent and superior to the Wergo issue. I've not yet head Leitner in the 6th symphony: really should as it's my favourite Hartmann work so far.

I'm really interested in Marek Janowski's new recording of the Sinfonia tragica and concerto for viola, piano and orchestra. It's coming out on Capriccio this month.

For the Concerto funebre the ECM disc is fine, though I think I marginally prefer Gertler and Ancerl on Supraphon (sadly Ancerl didn't record any other Hartmann, as I think he would have been great at it).

The Zehetmair Quartet's reading of #1 is definitely superior to the one on cpo.

Thank you Edward for this explanation about the Wergo set. :)
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Daverz on April 17, 2007, 09:42:33 AM
(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/190/14/7/7/636.jpg)

Kubelik/BRSO in Symphonys 4 & 8 (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1477636).  These are studio recordings made by DG, and I think that both sound and performance are superior to the live recordings on Wergo.  You can also get these DG recordings in the Kubelik "Original Masters" box.    If you can find it, the original Lp was also lovely sounding, one of the best DGs I've ever heard.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00008ZL51.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_V45216753_AA240_.jpg)

With Gertler in the Concerto Funebre.  I have the first CD issue, which was more sensibly coupled with some Hindemith works.

The previously mentioned ECM disc with Poppen et al is a beautiful introduction to Hartmann.  And the Leitner 6th on Hänssler is a real barnburner, if you don't mind buying a Bruckner 6 to get it.

Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: CS on April 17, 2007, 11:17:11 AM
I totally agree with your assessment, but why did you think I would not connect to Hartmann?
I have in my collection composers which go much further as Hartmann goes.
Agreed he is not a easy ride, but in the end very rewarding nevertheless.
His SQ are daily fare.

Not that I would think you could not connect with Hartmann's music -- I think most people could, if they let him grow on them. Just from experience it seems that his style instantly repels many people, and I thought your main interest was romantic music, so I simply did not expect it. I did not mean to judge your taste, or anything like that!  --CS
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: karlhenning on April 17, 2007, 11:20:06 AM
Of course, if Hartmann had written for lots of sopranos, mind . . . .

 0:)
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Harry on April 17, 2007, 12:04:18 PM
Of course, if Hartmann had written for lots of sopranos, mind . . . .

 0:)

Well yes then I would..........................
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 17, 2007, 12:11:02 PM
Thank you Edward for this explanation about the Wergo set. :)

I have the Wergo set. Sorry I can't compare it to Metzmacher but I can tell you the performces are very good, conducted by Kubelik (2, 4, 5, 6, 8 ), Leitner (3), Macal (7) and Rieger (1), and the 80s analog sound is wonderful: very natural with great clarity. It includes the "Gesangs-Szene" too with Fischer-Dieskau.

Sarge
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Harry on April 17, 2007, 12:39:22 PM
I have the Wergo set. Sorry I can't compare it to Metzmacher but I can tell you the performces are very good, conducted by Kubelik (2, 4, 5, 6, 8 ), Leitner (3), Macal (7) and Rieger (1), and the 80s analog sound is wonderful: very natural with great clarity. It includes the "Gesang-Szene" too with Fischer-Dieskau.

Sarge

That is wonderful news Sarge, thank you very much. :)
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: not edward on May 03, 2007, 11:32:14 AM
A very exciting upcoming release from Orfeo, due out in June: http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//C718071B.htm

I don't know of available recordings of the Piano Concerto or Symphonische Hymnen, and the combination of Schneiderhan and Kubelik in the Concerto funebre is extremely appealing to me.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: karlhenning on June 27, 2007, 05:57:42 AM
A very exciting upcoming release from Orfeo, due out in June: http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//C718071B.htm

I don't know of available recordings of the Piano Concerto or Symphonische Hymnen, and the combination of Schneiderhan and Kubelik in the Concerto funebre is extremely appealing to me.

Do you have a report yet, Edward? . . .
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: not edward on June 27, 2007, 02:10:32 PM
Do you have a report yet, Edward? . . .
I haven't seen any sign of this disc in Canada, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: paulb on January 19, 2008, 01:30:49 PM
I have the Wergo set. Sorry I can't compare it to Metzmacher but I can tell you the performces are very good, conducted by Kubelik (2, 4, 5, 6, 8 ), Leitner (3), Macal (7) and Rieger (1), and the 80s analog sound is wonderful: very natural with great clarity. It includes the "Gesangs-Szene" too with Fischer-Dieskau.

Sarge

You have a  fine set of these masterpieces, the longest sym is the 3rd at 35 and the 4th at 31 minutes. All the others under 30 minutes. But don't let the relatively short timings fool you, these are dense well thought out gripping emotional toned symphonies. Interesting thing here in these 8 syms, there's nota   'dud' in the group. Whereas in shostakovich, everyone seems to pick and choose., with 1-4 not too popular.  Not here in Hartmann's 8, I've found all to be crafted with great attention, economy ,  and thus engaging..

Here you can read a excellent review on amazon, the lone review by Symond.

http://www.amazon.com/Karl-Amadeus-Hartmann-Symphonies-Gesangs-Szene/dp/B000025RFU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1200776924&sr=1-1

I see Caiman is offering as NEW. I thought it was OOP, Wergo is   a hard to obtain label here in the states.
Recorded 1950-1963, in stunning sound engineering ,stereo.
I know someone who heard both Metzmacher and this Wergo, a  guy by the name of Steve, long ago member of GMG, he favored the Wergo.
If you hear me too often mention Hartmann, its beacuse for the past decades its been nothing but Shostakovich in the spot-light. Time to bring in a new composer, worthy to stand tall next to Shostakovich as far as symphonic literature.
Here are the year dates of the syms
1:  35/36
2:  Adagio 46
3:  48/49 (revised? so later dates than the 4rd?)
4:  47
5:  50
6:  52/53
7:  56/58
8:  60/62

I was unawre that Hartmann lived into the 1960's til now and scored his last in 60/62!! I had thought he was earlier and ended early 50's. To my surprise.

also have this 5,6, 8 /Berlin Classics, luckily still easily avaliable. Don't you just hate when good things go OOP, and you find out about the CD after its deleted from production >:D

have not recently compared the 2 recordings, and have no plans to , as memory recalls both were "top-notch".

http://www.amazon.com/Hartmann-Symphony-No-Concertante-8/dp/B0000035S1/ref=sr_1_33?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1200778300&sr=1-33
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: paulb on January 19, 2008, 01:54:17 PM
They're not all worth owning IMO...the best of the lot are 6, 7 & 8. Highly charged works! That Berlin classics disc is a good one...

gee you and i just have different opinions, as i left a  note to you on the Rosen recording of Carter.
In  these Hartmann 1-5, you may be looking for something more than whats there. To me they are highly intreguing. And as everyone here knows i'm one tough critic. It takes quite alot to get me interested and keep that interest.
For instance the 1-5 I find much more appealing to me tahn the Sibelius 7 syms. i realize they were not exactly contemporaries, but still within that time range. Sibelius was stuck in the old romantic traditions.
And i much prefer listening to the 1-5 to anything from the famous and ever popular  Stravinsky.
Just different sets of ears i guess.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: paulb on January 19, 2008, 02:06:20 PM
Christ.  :o
Hartmann symphonies over the very best of Stravinsky? & Sibelius? Fair enough but... ???

yeah i have a  few "odd-ball' opinions and "peculiar" interests in CM, but what can i say, its all about individual choices. Right?
many Sibelius-ians have even yet to hear Hartmann's best, the 6,7,8 syms, so in some sense i'm ahead in things CM.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: paulb on January 19, 2008, 03:12:09 PM
6, 7 & 8 are fine, but absolutely nowhere near Sibelius's best efforts in the genre, which are incredibly great & highly original. Keep listening.

I forgot to mention on the Stravinsky comment. I feel Stravinsky's best 2 ballets should be experience at the ballet to be appreciated. I just never came around to stravinsky all that much, might have to do with the biography of Stravinsky and other contemporaries.
That is i know just what hartmann went through, whereas Stravisnky had narrowly escaped all the major trepidations and conflicts, via paris and the US. The nazis "did in " Hartmann, so there's the heroic element in his music i identify with.
Hartmann represents the real world for me, Stravisnky is fantasy world.
On Sibelius, , big fan in early days, had 5 or 6 recordings of the syms. Both Barbirolli, Segerstam/Danish, the one on Berlin Classics, Davis/Boston, both Berglund, various other singles....lately its only the Kullervo thats stayed with me, and somewhat the Lemminkainen Legends. Even those didn't strike me as "essential listening" after last hearing. I am much more attracted to Debussy and Ravel from that era, as well to Bartok.
Doesn't have to be either/or, its just the way it ends up with me. Why listen to something i'm only partly interested about when i could be spinning music that totally captivates me, is sort of how i  hear things.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: paulb on January 19, 2008, 04:20:57 PM
I certainly don't require that to love Stravinsky's music...you should look more into him, he's truly a great composer, many great great works. & Sibelius at his best, was one of the most original symphonists ever...

I know Stravinsky was a  superb composer, shaking paris off its feet and still he gathers a flock of fans. Boulez adores Stravinsky, Bartok was highly impressed with Stravinsky when he visited Hungary with his latest ballets. The Woonden Prince has influences  from Stravisnky, but i much prefer the Wooden Prince to Stravinsky. Same With Debussy's work that came out same yr as Rite of Sping, I favor Debussy. Hartmann's sym 4 , 1st movement, much there that is Stravinskian.Seems everyone in those days were copying elements off Stravinsky.
Or did Stravinsky get some ideas off Debussy? Jung would call that synchronicity.
But its Hartmann that stikes the chords in me. Stravinsky never has in 20 yrs, and doubtfully ever will. Its   a lost cause. there's something about Stravsinsky that I am not so sure about.
Whereas Hartmann is the man who withstood the nazis
Yet that alone is not what draws me so intensely to his music, the music itself has this unique creative character.
<<<Its Hartmann and no other, there's real substance, the music is effective.>>>>

<<<< Unlike most the late 20th C avant garde composers who offer little strikingly unique or significant>>>>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Amadeus_Hartmann

http://www.musicweb-international.com/Hartmann/index.htm

Now notice "some have lauded H as the greatest german symphonist" so apparently there are others who feel the same as I do. In fact the only german symphonist i listen to  is Hartmann.

before i forget to mention, hartmann had some study with...WEBERN!
Now I'll have to loacte the Youtube clip featuring Boulez in conversation on the 3 second viennes greats. Just briefly said that whereas Schonberg has roots in Brahms, Berg , can;'t recall what Boulez said, and that strangely enough Webern seems not to have any roots that one can trace backwards.
Really interesting and must be heard.
So Hartmann had one of the most originals as teachers, though they did not see things the same too often.



 
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: paulb on January 19, 2008, 05:38:14 PM


And calling Hartmann the greatest german symphonist is a bit much, as hardly any of his stuff has had legs since to back up such a claim...compared to great German symphonists like Beethoven? Brahms? or even Schumann? who's symphonies have had legs and are regularly performed and recorded in copious amounts...can't say the same for Hartmann.

Indeed, all the ones you mention plus Mahler (viennese?), and Bruckner offer far far (2X's) much greater structures , forms, breath and length than Hartmann ever does in any of the 8.
But what i am refering to is the emotional content of Hartmann which speaks something of importance to me in the year 2008. Hartmann is alive. The others are old forms, i get absoluetly nothing out of those composers. Music to be of any value to me, has to strike the emotions which impact my life in 2008.
There's that alternative approach to music which solely embraces the individual and specifically excludes the historic sense.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: paulb on January 20, 2008, 08:30:31 AM
I get your perspective paul, we all have our preferences & reasons for liking what we do...but I want to add an obvious point that because music was done of an earlier time doesn't exclude it's capability to be timeless & eternal....truly great works of art speak and transcend over many centuries and generations, they are invaluable, for their artistic beauty, extraordinary musical content & ability to evoke powerful emotions etc. etc.

Thanks for understanding my idosyncratic,"peculiar" approach to music. i think its abit too excessive to use the word 'absoluetly", there are some Schnumann piano works that are interesting. I think my perspective would alter if i heard many of the romantics in concert.
Wagner's late operas I admire immensely. So agree 19th C composers can be just alive as music written late 20Th C.
The Hartmann syms though uniquely expressed , does borrow on  ideas  of Bartok, Stravinsky and Varese.
I may have to readjust my comment about greatest german symphonist. In spite of that, H is the only german symphonist i listen to.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Guido on January 20, 2008, 08:57:04 AM
After hearing his wonderful violin concerto I am eager to explore more... I will look into some of the things on this thread.

Wikipedia mentions a cello concerto of 1933 that is now lost. Does anyone know more about this piece - when it says lost, does it mean literally they can't find it, or do they know that it has been destroyed. The intended soloist was Vilmos Palotai but the Jstor article I read was unclear as to whether he ever managed to premiere it despite numerous attempts to fix concert dates...

Anyway, a fascinating composer and I look forward to hearing more.

(Have just checked and the Wergo set is in my University Library! I am very pleased...)
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: paulb on January 20, 2008, 10:23:17 AM
After hearing his wonderful violin concerto I am eager to explore more... I will look into some of the things on this thread.

Wikipedia mentions a cello concerto of 1933 that is now lost. Does anyone know more about this piece - when it says lost, does it mean literally they can't find it, or do they know that it has been destroyed. The intended soloist was Vilmos Palotai but the Jstor article I read was unclear as to whether he ever managed to premiere it despite numerous attempts to fix concert dates...

Anyway, a fascinating composer and I look forward to hearing more.

(Have just checked and the Wergo set is in my University Library! I am very pleased...)

Thats great news your university ML has the Wergo set! I would have guessed the Metzmacher set, as its more readily avaliable. i guess your ML aquired the H syms yrs ago. But thats pretty amazing that your U ML has the syms? Unreal, as H is , as with pettersson, pretty far off any trodden path.
Look forward to another opinion on the quality of the syms, as they appeal to you and their place in mid/late 20th C symphonic genre.
I may have gone abit extended in my appreciatives of the syms, but I feel they offer at least on the level of some 20th C  (Varese, Ives) and even more than many(too many to list) other popular late 20th C composers.
I'm happy to turn to the 8 syms once in awhile, more often than say than I consider  Ives.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: not edward on January 20, 2008, 10:31:11 AM
Hartmann is definitely closer to repertory status than Pettersson: Kubelik championed much of his music, and the 6th symphony was also taken up by Fricsay, Leitner and others--not to mention Gertler, Scheiderhan and the many other violinists who took up the Concerto funebre, a work which still pops up on concert programs every now and then. The more recent era has been less kind to Hartmann, but he does seem to have a fairly solid place as a bridge between the Berg and Henze generations.

I'm still hoping for a big-name conductor to take up the 6th, as I think this is a piece that could have mass appeal (to some extent, I think the same of the 2nd and 8th).

Guido: The Wergo set is definitely superior to Metzmacher--so enjoy (and rip) it. It used to be listed on amazon.co.uk for about 12 pounds (they'd priced it as a 1CD set) but I suspect it's reverted to a higher price.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: paulb on January 21, 2008, 12:00:53 PM
Hartmann is definitely closer to repertory status than Pettersson: Kubelik championed much of his music, and the 6th symphony was also taken up by Fricsay, Leitner and others--not to mention Gertler, Scheiderhan and the many other violinists who took up the Concerto funebre, a work which still pops up on concert programs every now and then. The more recent era has been less kind to Hartmann, but he does seem to have a fairly solid place as a bridge between the Berg and Henze generations.

I'm still hoping for a big-name conductor to take up the 6th, as I think this is a piece that could have mass appeal (to some extent, I think the same of the 2nd and 8th).

Guido: The Wergo set is definitely superior to Metzmacher--so enjoy (and rip) it. It used to be listed on amazon.co.uk for about 12 pounds (they'd priced it as a 1CD set) but I suspect it's reverted to a higher price.

thank you sir.
I heard the complete 8 past weekend, and now am going back for "second helpings"  ;D transversing the complete set once again.
but here's the problem, I'm hypnotized by the 1st and 3rd syms, dics 1 of the 4 cd Wergo set.
Transfixed to playing the 1st cd over and over..weird i know. i get like that. Not sure why. i do the same thing with Kurt Weill's 1st sym. So i don't often play it, the thing has strange affects on me and draws me into a sound world that i can't easily pull myself out of. Its like I'm transported into a  realm beyond my powers to say , do not hit replay.

gotta runn...............
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Guido on January 21, 2008, 04:24:05 PM
They have two copies of the complete symphonies on Wergo no less! I imagine that there is some Hartmann enthusiast in the faculty. If he's as good as Ives, then I am looking forward to it even more.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: pjme on January 22, 2008, 03:42:51 AM
Guido, since you are a cellist I want to point out that on the French Naive label, Anne Gastinel performs Eric Tanguy's ( °1968) two celloconcerti ( resp. 1994/1995 and 2000)French Nat.O. /Alain Altinoglu. The CD gets very good reviews : accessible ,yet contemporary music.

Peter

I have the Wergo/ Hartmann Cd's for years now . discoved him through the old DGG LP of symph. 6
Give the Gesangsszene ( baritione + orch) also a chance. A very dark work ... DFDieskau give s a superb performance.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Guido on January 22, 2008, 11:57:34 AM
Thanks for the recommendation - I am always looking out for new 20th century cello concertos, especially ones of real quality. I will order it.

Guido, since you are a cellist I want to point out that on the French Naive label, Anne Gastinel performs Eric Tanguy's ( °1968) two celloconcerti ( resp. 1994/1995 and 2000)French Nat.O. /Alain Altinoglu. The CD gets very good reviews : accessible ,yet contemporary music.

Peter

I have the Wergo/ Hartmann Cd's for years now . discoved him through the old DGG LP of symph. 6
Give the Gesangsszene ( baritione + orch) also a chance. A very dark work ... DFDieskau give s a superb performance.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: toledobass on January 25, 2008, 05:27:12 AM
For anyone in the northwest Ohio region who may be interested in hearing some Hartmann live,  the Toledo Symphony will be performing his Concerto Funebre next weekend.  Here are more details (http://toledosymphony.com/performances/classic/carminaburana.html).

Allan         
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: karlhenning on January 25, 2008, 05:30:30 AM
Cool! Beautiful piece!
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Guido on March 14, 2009, 03:15:32 PM
Have been listening to these Symphonies again recently as well as the violin concerto - these are just fantastic works.

I would be very keen to hear the concerto for viola, piano and winds - has anyone got that CD? Also I really want to find the missing cello concerto now!
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Dundonnell on March 14, 2009, 03:20:22 PM
Have been listening to these Symphonies again recently as well as the violin concerto - these are just fantastic works.

I would be very keen to hear the concerto for viola, piano and winds - has anyone got that CD? Also I really want to find the missing cello concerto now!

I will send you the link for the viola and piano concerto, Guido :)
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Guido on March 14, 2009, 04:21:20 PM
Cheers!
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: not edward on March 15, 2009, 11:26:01 AM
Have been listening to these Symphonies again recently as well as the violin concerto - these are just fantastic works.

I would be very keen to hear the concerto for viola, piano and winds - has anyone got that CD? Also I really want to find the missing cello concerto now!
I'd love to get hold of that CD, but so far it has proven elusive. I'll keep looking, though.

Have you heard Schneiderhan/Kubelik live on Orfeo in the violin concerto? For me, it blows other recordings out of the water--amazing intensity.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: snyprrr on March 15, 2009, 01:19:43 PM
Harry, you said the SQs were "daily fare." Being as I'm mostly into SQs at the moment and have been mulling over Hartmann, can you give me any go through? I hear the 2nd is the better. I started the Pfitzner thread to get some thoughts on the last generation of the German romantics (I mean as opposed to Stockhausen, that is): Schmidt, Pzitzner, Hartmann, Hindemith, Eisler, Weill. Can't think of anyone else.I take it Blacher would fit more with the younger generation.

always saved that Hartmann/Metz box for a rainy afternoon...
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Dundonnell on March 15, 2009, 01:27:01 PM
Harry, you said the SQs were "daily fare." Being as I'm mostly into SQs at the moment and have been mulling over Hartmann, can you give me any go through? I hear the 2nd is the better. I started the Pfitzner thread to get some thoughts on the last generation of the German romantics (I mean as opposed to Stockhausen, that is): Schmidt, Pzitzner, Hartmann, Hindemith, Eisler, Weill. Can't think of anyone else.I take it Blacher would fit more with the younger generation.

always saved that Hartmann/Metz box for a rainy afternoon...

No....if you can appreciate Hartmann then you should have absolutely no difficulty with Blacher ;D
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Dundonnell on March 15, 2009, 01:30:57 PM
I'd love to get hold of that CD, but so far it has proven elusive. I'll keep looking, though.

Have you heard Schneiderhan/Kubelik live on Orfeo in the violin concerto? For me, it blows other recordings out of the water--amazing intensity.

Your Inbox is full!  I can let you have the links to this disc if you would like.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: not edward on May 08, 2009, 10:54:28 AM
A new Hartmann recording that looks mighty tempting, out soon:

http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/NR_June09/WER67142.htm

Benjamin Schmid in the Concerto funebre might be something special, not to mention the less well-known works here.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: karlhenning on June 01, 2009, 03:07:05 AM
A new Hartmann recording that looks mighty tempting, out soon:

http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/NR_June09/WER67142.htm

Benjamin Schmid in the Concerto funebre might be something special, not to mention the less well-known works here.

Have you reeled that one in yet, Edward?
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: not edward on June 01, 2009, 06:13:47 AM
Have you reeled that one in yet, Edward?
I haven't seen it yet. If I had, I would.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: karlhenning on July 07, 2009, 02:50:43 AM
Harry, you said the SQs were "daily fare." Being as I'm mostly into SQs at the moment and have been mulling over Hartmann, can you give me any go through? I hear the 2nd is the better. I started the Pfitzner thread to get some thoughts on the last generation of the German romantics (I mean as opposed to Stockhausen, that is): Schmidt, Pzitzner, Hartmann, Hindemith, Eisler, Weill. Can't think of anyone else.I take it Blacher would fit more with the younger generation.

always saved that Hartmann/Metz box for a rainy afternoon...

TTT
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: karlhenning on July 09, 2009, 02:47:23 AM
TTT
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: karlhenning on October 15, 2010, 10:08:49 AM
Thanks Don, it seems there is a consensus about the Metzmacher.

I've just this week managed to bring in the Metzmacher set, and have been listening to the first CD. Wonderful!
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 22, 2012, 06:41:38 AM
Have you heard Schneiderhan/Kubelik live on Orfeo in the violin concerto? For me, it blows other recordings out of the water--amazing intensity.

Just fetched this one in. Started in at the start of the CD, with the Concerto for piano, winds & percussion, which (even if it is not a soul-stretcher) I find a very nicely turned piece.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: snyprrr on May 22, 2012, 06:46:45 PM
CPO vs Nimbus  in the String Quartets

Anyone?

I'm happy with Nimbus, haven't heard CPO.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: jlaurson on May 23, 2012, 02:17:02 AM
CPO vs Nimbus  in the String Quartets

Anyone?

I'm happy with Nimbus, haven't heard CPO.

Neither contain the two Concertinos for string quartet... but for just SQ4ts 1 & 2, I say stick with the Vogler over the Pellegrini's (fine though they also are).
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: snyprrr on May 23, 2012, 07:54:35 AM
Neither contain the two Concertinos for string quartet... but for just SQ4ts 1 & 2, I say stick with the Vogler over the Pellegrini's (fine though they also are).

Thanks! ;)

I really like Hartmann's SQs here. They really satisfy the need for a "post-war" German perspective, Pfitzner seemingly representing the "even more" depressed ethos (though his Late music tends more towards "Mozart" (Schubert?), rather than Hartmann's more "Beethovanian" take?).

I am slowly finding the high points of the 1940s SQs. I like the Hindemith 5-6 (or 6-7,...if you include...), the Chavez 3, Vaughn Williams 2, Malipiero 5, Hartmann 2,... surely others (Myaskovsky, though different,... DSCH 4-6,... Prokofiev 2)... they all have an accumulated nobility, a certain standard of received pathos (minor ninth/major seventh?,... very Stravinskian?)...

Forgive me, but I DO seek out works forged by horror... Bridge's Piano Trio No.2 being my most famous example... would love to hear more (but only for the right reasons of course!!)

Shostakovitch + Hindemith = Hartmann?? (just in these SQs?)
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: snyprrr on January 26, 2013, 08:35:48 AM
Thanks! ;)

I really like Hartmann's SQs here. They really satisfy the need for a "post-war" German perspective, Pfitzner seemingly representing the "even more" depressed ethos (though his Late music tends more towards "Mozart" (Schubert?), rather than Hartmann's more "Beethovanian" take?).

I am slowly finding the high points of the 1940s SQs. I like the Hindemith 5-6 (or 6-7,...if you include...), the Chavez 3, Vaughn Williams 2, Malipiero 5, Hartmann 2,... surely others (Myaskovsky, though different,... DSCH 4-6,... Prokofiev 2)... they all have an accumulated nobility, a certain standard of received pathos (minor ninth/major seventh?,... very Stravinskian?)...

Forgive me, but I DO seek out works forged by horror... Bridge's Piano Trio No.2 being my most famous example... would love to hear more (but only for the right reasons of course!!)

Shostakovitch + Hindemith = Hartmann?? (just in these SQs?)

Hartmann, anyone?
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 08, 2013, 08:19:04 PM
Wish Harry would change the name of this composer thread. Anyway....

A little biographical info on Hartmann since there doesn't seem to be any on this thread:

Karl Amadeus Hartmann has been proclaimed by supporters the finest German symphonist since Johannes Brahms, although he is a somewhat controversial figure among the more open-minded. Using Baroque, jazz and various other musical elements, he forged an eclectic style that divulged the influence of Reger, Stravinsky and Hindemith. He was versatile, producing operas, symphonies, various orchestral scores, chamber and choral music, and solo works for piano and violin.

Hartmann's first serious studies began in 1924 at Munich's Akademie der Tonkunst, chief among his teachers being Joseph Haas. After five years there he moved on to studies with conductor Hermann Scherchen and, later, with Anton Webern. By 1933, owing to the success of his Concerto for Trumpet and Wind Ensemble, he was gaining considerable recognition. Around this time, Hartmann adopted a firm anti-Nazi stance, avoiding military service and, some say, actively defying government policies.

One of his brothers was known to have distributed anti-Nazi leaflets, and while Hartmann's wife claimed her husband's resistance was passive, others reported that the composer helped political prisoners across the border. Whatever the level of his opposition to Hitler, he was harassed by the Nazis and his music was not played in Germany until after the war. Yet, he remained active in the field of composition throughout the Nazi reign, producing many scores, large and small, like the symphonic poem Miserae (1934), the Concerto funebre (1939), Sinfonia Tragica (1940-43), and the dark Symphony No. 2 (1945-46). Following the war Hartmann established a concert series in Munich called Musica Viva. He also took on the post as dramaturge at the Munich State Opera. He garnered a string of composition prizes, including the Munich music prize (1949) and ISCM Schoenberg Medal (1954).

In the final decade of his life, Hartmann turned to the influence of Boris Blacher, using his ideas concerning changeable meter, as exhibited in works like Hartmann's 1953 Concerto for Piano and 1955 Concerto for Viola. His reputation grew in the 1950s, reaching across the Atlantic: Eugene Ormandy and the Philadelphia Orchestra premiered his Symphony No. 7 (1957-58). Still, Hartmann never quite reached the front rank of 20th century composers, despite the respect he had gained among conductors and musicians alike. He died of stomach cancer at the age of 58.

[Article taken from All Music Guide]
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 08, 2013, 08:24:59 PM
I'm really digging Hartmann's music these days. It's really too early for me to say what is my favorite symphony because each of them is so incredible and different. I may be out of bounds by saying this but I think Hartmann's music is a continuation of Berg. There many lyrical moments that recall that great composer's music. What do you guys think?
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 08, 2013, 08:47:13 PM
On a related note, I'm really excited to also explore the symphonies of Krenek.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 10, 2013, 06:24:46 AM
What are everyone's favorite Hartmann symphonies?
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: pjme on April 10, 2013, 06:56:56 AM
I was in Amsterdam on March 30 the for a performance of symphony nr 8 . Concertgebouw / Ingo Metzmacher and the Dutch Radio Ph.O.
"Cantilene und Dithyrambe"
It was an overwhelming experience : committed playing of a realy complex score that constantly changes colour and moves from the tenderest string whisper to extatic brass/percussion outbursts. As usual: "Feeling" this music live cannot be compared to the finest recording.

Gesangsszene remains propably my favorite Hartmann score but symphonies ,6, 7 and 8 have grown on me over the years. But none of them leave me cold .

A great composer and I thank Dutch radio for remembering Hartmann's death - 50 years ago.

P.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Cato on April 10, 2013, 06:59:17 AM
What are everyone's favorite Hartmannsymphonies?

The correct answer is: ALL of them!   0:)   ???

Certainly the First, Sixth, Seventh, and Eighth stand out because of their intensity, but the others are musico-spiritual journeys also.

And as PJME mentions, the Gesangsszene is a great symphonic work, if not precisely a symphony.

Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: pjme on April 10, 2013, 07:03:49 AM
The old recording of Gesangsszene with D F Dieskau made me discover this unique sound world . Surely Berg comes to mind, but there is not one score by Hartmann that could be mistaken for Berg.
P.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 10, 2013, 07:07:53 AM
I was in Amsterdam on March 30 the for a performance of symphony nr 8 . Concertgebouw / Ingo Metzmacher and the Dutch Radio Ph.O.
"Cantilene und Dithyrambe"
It was an overwhelming experience : committed playing of a realy complex score that constantly changes colour and moves from the tenderest string whisper to extatic brass/percussion outbursts. As usual: "Feeling" this music live cannot be compared to the finest recording.

Gesangsszene remains propably my favorite Hartmann score but symphonies ,6, 7 and 8 have grown on me over the years. But none of them leave me cold .

A great composer and I thank Dutch radio for remembering Hartmann's death - 50 years ago.

P.

I'd love to see a Hartmann symphony performed live, but, alas, I live in the United States and, more importantly, in the South where it's unlikely I'll ever hear a note of his music performed unless the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra ever take on a work.

You're very fortunate to live in a country that supports classical music and encourages performances of composers outside the mainstream.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 10, 2013, 07:09:37 AM
In fact, the first music of Hartmann's I ever heard, was performed live here in the USA.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 10, 2013, 07:12:52 AM
The correct answer is: ALL of them!   0:)   ???

Certainly the First, Sixth, Seventh, and Eighth stand out because of their intensity, but the others are musico-spiritual journeys also.

And as PJME mentions, the Gesangsszene is a great symphonic work, if not precisely a symphony.

I've heard all of the symphonies and Gesangsszene. Everything I have heard thus far has been outstanding. I'm really enamored with Symphony No. 2 'Adagio' and Symphony No. 3 right now. Symphony No. 6 is also just incredible, but, like you said, Cato, they're all so good.

I'm really looking forward to that Kubelik Orfeo recording I bought yesterday that contains Concerto Funebre and the Concerto for Piano. I've heard Concerto Funebre before and loved it.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 10, 2013, 07:16:49 AM
The old recording of Gesangsszene with D F Dieskau made me discover this unique sound world . Surely Berg comes to mind, but there is not one score by Hartmann that could be mistaken for Berg.
P.

Berg does come to mind occasionally, but Hartmann is his own man throughout all the works I've heard, but, like Berg, he does love those smoldering climaxes. :) Hindemith and Bartok also comes to mind in the more aggressive string syncopated passages, but that's about it. Hartmann is truly a unique compositional voice.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: pjme on April 10, 2013, 07:19:28 AM
I live in Belgium and had  to travel ( 200 km..) to hear Hartmann. 
Hartmann was largely "forgotten" on Belgian radio/in concerthalls.  But it is true , with a little bit of time and money I can choose from good venues that quite regularly offer interesting repertoire.  In Amsterdam, Utrecht, Cologne and Dusseldorf (Essen, Aachen, Bonn...) concertseries are organised with less obvious works. In Belgium Barock Music and Old music get much more attention.

Still, the financial crisis is hitting all cultural activities relentlesly evrywhere in Europe: less concerts, musical ensembles disappear, cd's are NOT made, even La Monnaie/De Munt is in deep trouble. The cultural future looks bleak ( unless you are André Rieu or a musical called Shreck).

P.


Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 10, 2013, 07:46:48 AM
Don't worry the US has already become a cultural wasteland and it's been this way for years.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: jlaurson on April 10, 2013, 07:52:15 AM
What are everyone's favorite Hartmann symphonies?

Almost whichever I'm listening to... especially when it's live.

 But perhaps the Fourth... ("Elephant graveyard of String Quartets")
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/08/notes-from-2011-salzburg-festival-12.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/08/notes-from-2011-salzburg-festival-12.html)

...and the Sixth (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00083D4J8/nectarandambr-20) atop the list??

Nine! replies, since I started typing this answer. Whow.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 10, 2013, 07:55:14 AM
Almost whichever I'm listening to... especially when it's live.

 But the perhaps the Fourth... ("Elephant graveyard of String Quartets")
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/08/notes-from-2011-salzburg-festival-12.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/08/notes-from-2011-salzburg-festival-12.html)

...and the Sixth (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00083D4J8/nectarandambr-20) atop the list??

Nine! replies, since I started typing this answer. Whow.

I love Symphony No. 4. Interesting description "Elephant graveyard of String Quartets." I never thought of it like that before! Ha! The 6th is incredible of course.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 10, 2013, 08:32:50 AM
. . . or a musical called Shreck.

Oh, I did not read that.

Thread Duty: Cato is right:


The correct answer is: ALL of them!   0:)   ???
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Sef on April 10, 2013, 09:02:06 AM
Don't worry the US has already become a cultural wasteland and it's been this way for years.
The Chicago Symphony Orchestra programmed Hartmann's Concerto Funebre a year or two back. They even performed it in my home town as a precursor to their Symphony Center concert, so I can legitimately say that one of the best orchestras in the world played a Hartmann piece within walking distance of my house! I only wish that they would also perform a Symphony, preferably the sixth, my favorite.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 10, 2013, 09:14:51 AM
The Chicago Symphony Orchestra programmed Hartmann's Concerto Funebre a year or two back. They even performed it in my home town as a precursor to their Symphony Center concert, so I can legitimately say that one of the best orchestras in the world played a Hartmann piece within walking distance of my house! I only wish that they would also perform a Symphony, preferably the sixth, my favorite.

My point is that how often does a Hartmann work make it onto an American symphonic program by a major orchestra? Not very often. But you're quite lucky to have seen the Concerto Funebre. A powerful work.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Sef on April 10, 2013, 09:45:07 AM
My point is that how often does a Hartmann work make it onto an American symphonic program by a major orchestra? Not very often. But you're quite lucky to have seen the Concerto Funebre. A powerful work.
.... and you are quite correct. Perhaps my example should only stand as an exception that proves the rule? Btw, you assume that I actually saw the aforementioned concert - unfortunetely not as I was abroad on business that week. In agreement with your initial statement I must say that the probability of getting a second bite of the cherry is low to none! But hope springs eternal....
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 10, 2013, 09:50:32 AM
.... and you are quite correct. Perhaps my example should only stand as an exception that proves the rule? Btw, you assume that I actually saw the aforementioned concert - unfortunetely not as I was abroad on business that week. In agreement with your initial statement I must say that the probability of getting a second bite of the cherry is low to none! But hope springs eternal....

Sorry to have made that assumption. Too bad you didn't get to see Concerto Funebre. Since you said the 6th is your favorite Hartmann symphony, what is about this particular symphony that draws into it? I just got through listening to the 6th yet again and, for me, it's an aggressive, angry piece of music that hits all the right buttons. I'm listening to Symphony No. 3 right now and I've got to say this is so damn good. Cato is correct in saying that all of the symphonies are great. Whatever I'm listening to at that moment is my favorite. 8)
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 10, 2013, 09:51:48 AM
The Chicago Symphony Orchestra programmed Hartmann's Concerto Funebre a year or two back. They even performed it in my home town as a precursor to their Symphony Center concert, so I can legitimately say that one of the best orchestras in the world played a Hartmann piece within walking distance of my house! I only wish that they would also perform a Symphony, preferably the sixth, my favorite.

Nice! Who was the violinist?
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Sef on April 10, 2013, 09:56:50 AM
Nice! Who was the violinist?
Would have been nice, yes!! Gil Shaham. http://www.suntimes.com/entertainment/2246879-421/shaham-concerto-hartmann-cso-barber.html (http://www.suntimes.com/entertainment/2246879-421/shaham-concerto-hartmann-cso-barber.html)
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: snyprrr on April 10, 2013, 09:58:40 AM
Who you like better, Hartmann or Henze?
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Sef on April 10, 2013, 10:06:30 AM
Sorry to have made that assumption. Too bad you didn't get to see Concerto Funebre. Since you said the 6th is your favorite Hartmann symphony, what is about this particular symphony that draws into it? I just got through listening to the 6th yet again and, for me, it's an aggressive, angry piece of music that hits all the right buttons. I'm listening to Symphony No. 3 right now and I've got to say this is so damn good. Cato is correct in saying that all of the symphonies are great. Whatever I'm listening to at that moment is my favorite. 8)
For me the 6th just rolls along like a train picking up speed. It just doesn't let you go. A rollercoaster. Oh I don't know! Fierce and Angry but absolutely compelling from start to finish.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 10, 2013, 10:08:19 AM
Who you like better, Hartmann or Henze?

You unreconstructed bracketologist! ; )

If pressed, I should have to say Hartmann.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 10, 2013, 10:08:34 AM
For me the 6th just rolls along like a train picking up speed. It just doesn't let you go. A rollercoaster. Oh I don't know! Fierce and Angry but absolutely compelling from start to finish.

That's how I feel about all of Hartmann's symphonies! :) Damn, listening to the 3rd now and this such a fine work. Some absolutely haunting moments. This may be my favorite. ;) :D
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: snyprrr on April 10, 2013, 10:10:53 AM
You unreconstructed bracketologist! ; )

If pressed, I should have to say Hartmann.

searing?  intense? Henze is much more worldly?
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 10, 2013, 10:11:52 AM
Who you like better, Hartmann or Henze?

Hartmann, but I would like to get to know Henze's music better. What I admire about Hartmann is that he never completely lost sight of Romanticism even though it's quite distant especially as the symphonic cycle progresses. There are some incredibly lyrical, but quite eerie moments that occur. It's not all hot-air with no substance.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: snyprrr on April 10, 2013, 10:19:42 AM
Hartmann, but I would like to get to know Henze's music better. What I admire about Hartmann is that he never completely lost sight of Romanticism even though it's quite distant especially as the symphonic cycle progresses. There are some incredibly lyrical, but quite eerie moments that occur. It's not all hot-air with no substance.

That DG set of Henze Symphonies 1-6 has what I imagine is a slightly less searing Hartmann? Henze doesn't have Hartmann's angst? I like the Henze for its 'objectivity', or, detachment, perhaps? Still, Hartmann does call!!
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Sef on April 10, 2013, 10:20:15 AM
That's how I feel about all of Hartmann's symphonies! :) Damn, listening to the 3rd now and this such a fine work. Some absolutely haunting moments. This may be my favorite. ;) :D
Symphonies 6 through 8 are always on my playlist, so I would have to say that they are my favorites. Interesting comparison with Henze though. I only have one CD (Rattle conducting Symphony 7 and 9) which I like (and recommend) incredibly. But I always go back to Hartmann... :)
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 10, 2013, 10:41:36 AM
That DG set of Henze Symphonies 1-6 has what I imagine is a slightly less searing Hartmann? Henze doesn't have Hartmann's angst? I like the Henze for its 'objectivity', or, detachment, perhaps? Still, Hartmann does call!!

I'll have to give that a try as it's cheap as hell as a Brilliant Classics issue. I would really like to get to know Henze better as I've become quite interested in mid-20th Century German orchestral music. Any works by Henze you think I should listen to first? I do own Henze's Undine, by the way, which I like quite a bit.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: snyprrr on April 10, 2013, 01:29:16 PM
I'll have to give that a try as it's cheap as hell as a Brilliant Classics issue. I would really like to get to know Henze better as I've become quite interested in mid-20th Century German orchestral music. Any works by Henze you think I should listen to first? I do own Henze's Undine, by the way, which I like quite a bit.

Pick any Symphony 1-5, or, go in order. No.6 isn't the place to start. Maybe 4? 5?

1-2 are more 'playful'? 1-5 are pretty consistent throughout. 4 or 5 are the high points I think

I really wish there was more stuff like these five..
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 10, 2013, 02:14:30 PM
Pick any Symphony 1-5, or, go in order. No.6 isn't the place to start. Maybe 4? 5?

1-2 are more 'playful'? 1-5 are pretty consistent throughout. 4 or 5 are the high points I think

I really wish there was more stuff like these five..

Thank you, synprrr. I'll check them out at some point.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 10, 2013, 03:48:31 PM
I have the Wergo set. Sorry I can't compare it to Metzmacher but I can tell you the performces are very good, conducted by Kubelik (2, 4, 5, 6, 8 ), Leitner (3), Macal (7) and Rieger (1), and the 80s analog sound is wonderful: very natural with great clarity. It includes the "Gesangs-Szene" too with Fischer-Dieskau.

Sarge

+1 An essential acquisition for the Hartmann fan IMHO. An expensive set for sure, but worth every penny.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Cato on April 10, 2013, 04:29:42 PM
Who you like better, Hartmann or Henze?

Hartmann kicks your id around like a 9-year old booting a soccer ball full of marshmallows.  8)

Henze's first 6 symphonies I recall hearing for the first time c. 40 years ago: the DGG set showed Henze conducting and looking very proletarian wearing a factory worker's shirt.   $:)   

The symphonies I have since revisited several times, but I have never been grabbed by them or their newer counterparts as deeply as by Hartmann's.

+1 An essential acquisition for the Hartmann fan IMHO. An expensive set for sure, but worth every penny.

Amen!   0:)
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 10, 2013, 04:49:29 PM
Hartmann kicks your id around like a 9-year old booting a soccer ball full of marshmallows.  8)

Henze's first 6 symphonies I recall hearing for the first time c. 40 years ago: the DGG set showed Henze conducting and looking very proletarian wearing a factory worker's shirt.   $:)   

The symphonies I have since revisited several times, but I have never been grabbed by them or their newer counterparts as deeply as by Hartmann's.

If that's not a ringing endorsement for Hartmann, I don't know what is! :D

Amen! 0:)

I just think the set is better than Metzmacher. Here's a reply I wrote to a reviewer on Amazon about the Metzmacher set:

I just don't like Metzmacher's performances. This set seems to divide many listeners. I'll always prefer the Wergo set. The Kubelik performances alone in that set are worth their weight in gold. Metzmacher also needs a better orchestra who understands Hartmann's idiom from the inside out. I don't feel the Bambergers are that interested in this music. I also feel that Metzmacher is mediocre conductor. A good conductor knows how to dig deeper into the music. These performances just seem to be a run-through with nothing special going on inside of them.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Sef on April 11, 2013, 11:18:41 AM
If that's not a ringing endorsement for Hartmann, I don't know what is! :D

I just think the set is better than Metzmacher. Here's a reply I wrote to a reviewer on Amazon about the Metzmacher set:

I just don't like Metzmacher's performances. This set seems to divide many listeners. I'll always prefer the Wergo set. The Kubelik performances alone in that set are worth their weight in gold. Metzmacher also needs a better orchestra who understands Hartmann's idiom from the inside out. I don't feel the Bambergers are that interested in this music. I also feel that Metzmacher is mediocre conductor. A good conductor knows how to dig deeper into the music. These performances just seem to be a run-through with nothing special going on inside of them.
I agree that the Wergo is a must, but for someone wanting to start to explore Hartmann without forking out $75 for the set then the kick ass Leitner recording of Symphony #6 can be had for under $9, plus you get a pretty decent Bruckner #6 thrown in!

 
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 11, 2013, 04:35:42 PM
I agree that the Wergo is a must, but for someone wanting to start to explore Hartmann without forking out $75 for the set then the kick ass Leitner recording of Symphony #6 can be had for under $9, plus you get a pretty decent Bruckner #6 thrown in!

I bought my Hartmann set for $50, which isn't too bad. If a person wants to explore Hartmann's symphonies, I would recommend that Berlin Classics recording with Kegel first and then dive into the Wergo set if they like what they hear. Unfortunately, I bought the Metzmacher set first and wasn't totally convinced by the performances. The music, of course, I liked almost immediately as it's an idiom I'm very comfortable in. I'm glad there are better options available for the Hartmann symphonies.

Edit: For anyone interested in the Wergo set, keep an eye on Arkivmusic's website. They have the set for $44, but it's on back order right now. I wonder how long it takes them to replenish their stock? Anyone know?
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 11, 2013, 06:48:49 PM
What I love about Hartmann is his honesty. He didn't follow any trends or any 'schools of thought.' The guy simply wrote magnificent music that came right from his heart. It can be brutal even barbaric, but I think his music is a reflection of human nature. This said, there are also so many tender moments in his music that give a completely different impression of what just occurred in the music. He followed his own muse and just when I think I have some kind of understanding of the music it turns around and completely punches me in the face and beats me down. :) He was such a great composer.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 11, 2013, 07:39:58 PM
Does anyone here think Hartmann's music would be difficult to perform? I know I do. Just listening to Symphony No. 2 'Adagio', for example, gives the orchestra a workout. I'm sweating just thinking about it. ;D
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 12, 2013, 06:42:49 AM
Just bought via Arkivmusic for $44:

(http://boxset.ru/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Hartmann-Symphonien-1-8-Gezangs-Szene-4-CD-APE.jpg)

What I'm planning on doing is selling my old set, which I bought used, via Ebay or to a member here who wants to buy it and keeping the brand new set. But I won't do this until Arkivmusic actually ships the set. This set is on backorder right now and I questioned them about their backorders and here's what they wrote to me:

Thanks for contacting us.

Our warehouse in Canada expects Hartmann: 8 Symphonien, Gesangs-szene /Kubelik, Bavarian Rso (CD, 60187) to be in stock any day now.   

Items shipped from our Canadian warehouse may take longer for delivery to U.S. addresses.  In general, we find shipments being transported via Canada Post and US Postal 1st Class Mail arrive within two weeks, but some orders are delivered after 30 days (depending on the region and the Postal Service). 

Thanks for shopping at ArkivMusic.com and please let us know if we may be of further assistance.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: jlaurson on April 12, 2013, 08:37:49 AM
Does anyone here think Hartmann's music would be difficult to perform? I know I do. Just listening to Symphony No. 2 'Adagio', for example, gives the orchestra a workout. I'm sweating just thinking about it. ;D

Relevant cross-post from "Considering"

Quote
1.)Why would you say hell would freeze over before Munich Philharmonic record a Hartmann cycle? What's been happening with this orchestra lately?

2.) Hmmm....Nagano in Hartmann? Sounds interesting.
3.) One Mr. Gergiev will be playing a major role in deciding what will be performed.
4.) I forgot he was taking over the Munich PO. Oh well...the Berlin Radio Symphony seems like a good choice for Hartmann even though Munich was his hometown.
5.) Does anyone here think Hartmann's music would be difficult to perform?

1.) Because it's not that kind of orchestra... it's not their repertoire, and worse: Hartmann is associated with the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra... which makes it additionally unlikely that they'll go out of their way and do something artistically gratifying but economically risky. (Not just risky but, frankly, expensive and with no chance of proper return.)

Which brings me to 4.) By BRSO I meant the above-mentioned Bavarian RSO, not Berlin.

3.) I don't think Gergiev would be the problem, actually. They'll have plenty guest conductors, for one, and Gergiev, although you can color me a sceptic, is actually quite open minded and will surprise the audience yet. Not, in all likelihood, with Hartmann... but with at least a bit of fine out-of-the-way stuff.

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/02/valery-gergiev-signs-contract-with.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/02/valery-gergiev-signs-contract-with.html)

2.) Nagano's performance of the Hartmann Fourth Symphony was one of the highlights amid the highlight-studded 2011 Salzburg Festival. (And I mean real, genuine artistic highlights, not empty-splash name-recognition laziness that has become the sad norm with such festivals. Not to name names (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/08/notes-from-2012-salzburg-festival-7.html), or anything.
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/08/notes-from-2011-salzburg-festival-12.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/08/notes-from-2011-salzburg-festival-12.html)

Let's not forget Hartmann's Simplicissimus: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/12/best-recordings-of-2010-5.html
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 12, 2013, 08:43:02 AM
Let's not forget Hartmann's Simplicissimus: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/12/best-recordings-of-2010-5.html

I had forgotten; thanks for the reminder!
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 12, 2013, 05:42:20 PM
The only symphony of Hartmann I have trouble with is the 8th, but I'm learning my way through it. It's completely unforgiving and a hotbed of angst. Cato or anyone into Hartmann's music have any pointers about this symphony? I would like to get some different opinions on it.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 13, 2013, 05:57:28 PM
My brand new Wergo symphony set has been shipped via Arkivmusic! Very happy about this as now I can have a new set and sell the one I bought off Amazon MP. Anyone interested in buying my old Wergo send me a PM.

Edit:

I'll be selling my Hartmann set for $35 and this includes free shipping. The item's condition is used, like new, but there is a little wear on the outside box but this is the only cosmetic damage to the set. All discs play great as I have ripped them to one of my iPods and had no issues during the transfer whatsoever. You can't buy this set for $35 and, as I have stated in one of my posts, this set is indispensable.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 13, 2013, 08:57:20 PM
For those Hartmann newbies curious about the symphonies, read this when you have time:

http://www.wrightmusic.net/pdfs/karl-amadeus-hartmann.pdf
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: jlaurson on April 13, 2013, 11:53:15 PM
My brand new Wergo symphony set has been shipped via Arkivmusic! Very happy about this as now I can have a new set and sell the one I bought off Amazon MP. Anyone interested in buying my old Wergo send me a PM.

Edit:

I'll be selling my Hartmann set for $35 and this includes free shipping. The item's condition is used, like new, but there is a little wear on the outside box but this is the only cosmetic damage to the set. All discs play great as I have ripped them to one of my iPods and had no issues during the transfer whatsoever. You can't buy this set for $35 and, as I have stated in one of my posts, this set is indispensable.

That raises the interesting legal question as to whether you are allowed to keep the electronic files after you sell the set for which you (or at least somebody) paid for.
Actually, there's an interesting legal question about whether you were allowed to copy them onto your iPod in the first place (in the UK: no!, in the US: not explicitly yes or no, though there's an industry- (and obviously consumer-) wide assumption that, if you own the music, you are practically, if not theoretically, allowed to do so.)

I'm not bringing this up to moralize or point the finger at you, but because I'm genuinely interested in the topic and writing about it.

For those Hartmann newbies curious about the symphonies, read this when you have time:

http://www.wrightmusic.net/pdfs/karl-amadeus-hartmann.pdf

Our friend Dr. Wright is a bit harsh and unappreciative (not to say ignorant) when says "He was not just a composer of pretty tunes as was Schubert."
I know about the use of hyperbole and comparative bashing as tools to really bring into focus the excellence of one thing -- vs. another, if necessary.
I got a letter to the editor recently for quoting (not even stating myself, but quoting) Christoph Eschenbach saying that he'd give any or all of Mozart's early Symphonies for any one of Haydn's... complaining that Haydn didn't need championing-by-way-of-Mozart-denigration. But to say Schubert just composed pretty tunes? While that's true, it's actually *also* true that the world could go on merrily without Mozart's early symphonies. Substitute Michael Haydn, lose nothing... or at least we can understand where someone is coming from, who says that. But lumping all of Schubert together like that... somehow bothers me a bit.

...ah, I realize now, that's his style: hyperbole. Elgar the worst (not that I'm inclined to disagree vociferously), Scherchen the best German conductor of the last 150 years (how do you determine that, except ideologically?)

Oh... ok, and what (and HOW) he says about Britten, even where it aims at a kernel of truth, brings all the flags up... potential crank and kook, who happens to be accidentally right about Hartmann.

Oh... and it's badly written hobbyist rubbish. "What can I say of the Symphony no.8 written in 1960-62?" -- Why, what snappy use of a rhetorical device there! And then the hysterical copyright claim that one so often finds with the mediocre... and which I'm purposely defying by quoting two shitty sentences.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 14, 2013, 03:23:30 AM
Well, but you're quoting for educational purposes, Jens . . . .
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 14, 2013, 03:36:03 AM
For those Hartmann newbies curious about the symphonies, read this when you have time:

http://www.wrightmusic.net/pdfs/karl-amadeus-hartmann.pdf

Thank you, MI, for that link. One of the funniest things I've read in quite a while. Dr. Wright is a hoot  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 14, 2013, 05:45:26 AM
I guess I won't be quoting anything from Dr. Wright again! ::) I didn't really read the article in detail and thought it was just an overview of the symphonies. My mistake.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 14, 2013, 05:49:55 AM
That raises the interesting legal question as to whether you are allowed to keep the electronic files after you sell the set for which you (or at least somebody) paid for.
Actually, there's an interesting legal question about whether you were allowed to copy them onto your iPod in the first place (in the UK: no!, in the US: not explicitly yes or no, though there's an industry- (and obviously consumer-) wide assumption that, if you own the music, you are practically, if not theoretically, allowed to do so.)

I'm not bringing this up to moralize or point the finger at you, but because I'm genuinely interested in the topic and writing about it.

As long as I'm not selling a CD of the symphonies I ripped to my iPod, then I can do what I want with the music since I did buy the box set. In fact, as I noted above, I bought a brand new one too. :)
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: jlaurson on April 14, 2013, 06:05:00 AM
As long as I'm not selling a CD of the symphonies I ripped to my iPod, then I can do what I want with the music since I did buy the box set. In fact, as I noted above, I bought a brand new one too. :)

Now I'm confused. You are buying the same set twice? Why? And you're not selling the set you ripped on your iPod?

And again, this is curiosity, not wagging my finger. Also interesting, because people naturally assume they have rights about their music that they don't.

I'm currently looking into the matter of whether it can or should be legal to re-sell music downloads -- as you would assume that resale is a right acquired with purchase, as it is with other goods (used books, cars, pencils, LPs). Turns out: No. In a way, you are ever only licencing music... except that music companies consider downloads sales, because that means they get a greater profit-margin than they do from licensing (such as to radio stations). (Remember when it was illegal to record anything on tape-decks, even for your own use? And how DAT-machines were banned and doomed to a niche market, because of piracy concerns?) OK... maybe not fascinating to everyone... but I could get lost in that sort of stuff.





Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 14, 2013, 06:13:09 AM
Now I'm confused. You are buying the same set twice? Why? And you're not selling the set you ripped on your iPod?

And again, this is curiosity, not wagging my finger. Also interesting, because people naturally assume they have rights about their music that they don't.

I'm currently looking into the matter of whether it can or should be legal to re-sell music downloads -- as you would assume that resale is a right acquired with purchase, as it is with other goods (used books, cars, pencils, LPs). Turns out: No. In a way, you are ever only licencing music... except that music companies consider downloads sales, because that means they get a greater profit-margin than they do from licensing (such as to radio stations). (Remember when it was illegal to record anything on tape-decks, even for your own use? And how DAT-machines were banned and doomed to a niche market, because of piracy concerns?) OK... maybe not fascinating to everyone... but I could get lost in that sort of stuff.

Jens, did you not read this post I made?

Quote
I'll be selling my Hartmann set for $35 and this includes free shipping. The item's condition is used, like new, but there is a little wear on the outside box but this is the only cosmetic damage to the set. All discs play great as I have ripped them to one of my iPods and had no issues during the transfer whatsoever. You can't buy this set for $35 and, as I have stated in one of my posts, this set is indispensable.

People's rights with the CDs they buy is limited, yes, no question about it. But what I do with the music in my own home is strictly my business as long as I'm not duplicating and trying to sell it to somebody, then there's nothing legally that could be done to me. They would have to lock up millions of people for doing this if they locked me up. :)
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 14, 2013, 06:15:36 AM
Anyway, getting back to Hartmann, listened to the Symphonische Hymnen last night and loved it. Anyone else heard this work? This Kubelik recording is the only performance of it on record and, quite frankly, I don't see how it could be bettered anyway. The Bavarian RSO played great as usual. These guys really know Hartmann's idiom well.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 14, 2013, 06:15:44 AM
I guess I won't be quoting anything from Dr. Wright again! ::) I didn't really read the article in detail and thought it was just an overview of the symphonies. My mistake.

Well, it wasn't a total waste. I certainly appreciate his advocacy for a composer who deserves to be better known. I don't understand, though, his need to belittle other great composers as though that somehow elevates Hartmann. And then there are the silly statements like "the virtuoso fugue begins and it makes the great fugues of Bach and Handel seem mundane." Or the really distasteful, bigoted statements like "the gross immorality of the German people."  His prudish attack on FKK was pretty funny especially considering Walt Whitman's worship of the human body (which Hartmann must've been aware of). But maybe Hartmann really did object to Munich's Englischer Garten  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 14, 2013, 06:19:38 AM
Well, it wasn't a total waste. I certainly appreciate his advocacy for a composer who deserves to be better known. I don't understand, though, his need to belittle other great composers as though that somehow elevates Hartmann. And then there are the silly statements like "the virtuoso fugue begins and it makes the great fugues of Bach and Handel seem mundane." Or the really distasteful, bigoted statements like "the gross immorality of the German people."  His prudish attack on FKK was pretty funny especially considering Walt Whitman's worship of the human body (which Hartman must've been aware of). But maybe Hartmann really did object to Munich's Englischer Garten  :D

Sarge

Yeah, I think Dr. Wright should've left other composer's names out of his article too. There's really no need in it. I didn't read that remark about the German people, but it sounds moronic and completely off-base.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 14, 2013, 06:39:40 AM
I read the post... I just don't understand it. There seems to be some information assumed that I'm lacking. You bought one Hartmann set and selling another at the same time... ?
Or your selling the one you just bought? Sorry I'm being dense here.

I'm selling the used set and keeping the brand new set. Since I'm in awe of these symphonies, and since most of the symphony sets I've acquired have been brand new, I wanted to have a new set of the Hartmann. I figured this would also be a way for someone else who doesn't own the set themselves to buy it from me so they'll now own it too. I can't tell you how many times I've read "the Wergo set is too expensive." What I'm asking for this used set I own is cheap compared to Amazon MP and Ebay.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 14, 2013, 05:08:58 PM
Ah! No wonder I didn't understand you. I couldn't imagine why someone would buy one and the same set twice, so I assumed you must have been talking about Metzmacher's.
Well, I hope if finds an appreciative taker!

No problem, Jens. Now back to Hartmann...
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 30, 2013, 09:57:58 AM
Hartmann is da bomb!!!! Man, this composer is just incredible.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: snyprrr on April 30, 2013, 07:14:51 PM
Hartmann is da bomb!!!! Man, this composer is just incredible.

yea? yea? what? what? DETAILS MAN, DETAILS!!!
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 30, 2013, 07:27:19 PM
yea? yea? what? what? DETAILS MAN, DETAILS!!!

Okay..well I listened to his Symphonische Hymnen yet again and was blown away by it. Such intensity and raw power. I also listened to Concerto Funebre yet again and thought it was simply outstanding. I loved the beautifully lyrical last movement. I thought it ended the work gloriously.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 30, 2013, 07:49:52 PM
Damn, imagine what Leonard Bernstein could have done with Hartmann? He would have definitely pounded it home in the 6th!
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Scion7 on June 27, 2014, 09:56:45 AM
I doubt Bernstein would have been very good at all.  He was only listenable when conducting American composers' works (a quick jot thru his Beethoven symphonies will seem like chalk on a blackboard) - but he did do American composers very well indeed.

Funny how after you were so blase with "Andre" a few years ago about this composer that you've seen the light.   :)

He wrote some interesting chamber music, and one truly outstanding piano piece (the Sonata 1945.)
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 20, 2014, 10:11:47 AM
Quote from: Andrew Clements (Sunday 28 September 2008)
If ever a conductor and his orchestra launched a new season with a statement of intent, it is Vladimir Jurowski and the London Philharmonic. Opening with a programme that included a Turnage premiere and a piece of Ligeti, they followed it up with a concert built around an extraordinary, rarely heard work by Karl Amadeus Hartmann, the German composer who resisted the Third Reich by taking himself into internal exile, and who spent the years after the war influencing the new European avant garde.

In fact, Gesangsszene was Hartmann's final work, unfinished when he died in 1963 at the age of 58, with the last few lines of a lengthy passage from Jean Giraudoux's 1944 play Sodome et Gomorrhe still to be completed. It remains, though, a prescient work, likening the fate of the biblical cities to those of the 20th century. Somewhere within the overblown score, there is an impassioned work trying to get out - Schoenberg's A Survivor from Warsaw seems to be the model - but Hartmann overdoes things, saturating the textures so that the baritone soloist struggles to be heard.

Despite its faults, it was thrilling to hear Gesangsszene superlatively conducted by Jurowski and sung with such dramatic power and intelligence by Matthias Goerne. Perhaps Jurowski was making a point too by prefacing it with Strauss's Metamorphosen, a work that elegises the German culture Hartmann came to reject. Rather than sticking to the 23 solo strings that Strauss specified, Jurowski made use of the whole of the LPO's string section, reserving the supernumeraries for the climaxes and passages of greatest expressive power. It did not quite come off - adding weight of tone is not the same as generating extra intensity - though every line was beautifully moulded, and the Brahms that concluded the concert (the Second Symphony) was equally well-shaped.

At The Guardian here (http://www.theguardian.com/music/2008/sep/29/classicalmusicandopera).
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 21, 2014, 06:09:44 AM
Per this (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21492.msg824460.html#msg824460):

Quote from: Dr Michael Kube (tr. Gila Fox)
Composed in 1951-53, Symphony No. 6 (along with his Symphonies Nos. 3, 4 and 5) is based on an older work which Hartmann fundamentally revised.  It is the Symphony “L’Œuvre,” written in 1938 and premiered in Lüttich in 1939, which is based on the novel by Emile Zola (1840-1902) by the same name, telling of the unbalanced and self-doubting painter Claude Lantier’s fate (for whom Cézanne modeled against his will).

Must be a particularly misleading translation.  "[F]or whom Cézanne modeled against his will" makes it sound like Claude Lantier is an actual artist.  But (if I understand the discussion of the book correctly, which I find on Wikipedia) Lantier is a fiction, based on Cézanne.

So it should be something more like "based on the person of Cézanne, without the artist's leave."
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: not edward on November 08, 2014, 06:46:11 AM
So, has anyone heard this new(ish) multi-conductor set of the Hartmann symphonies with a couple of Dutch orchestras?



I only found out it exists today.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Cato on November 08, 2014, 07:21:09 AM
So, has anyone heard this new(ish) multi-conductor set of the Hartmann symphonies with a couple of Dutch orchestras?



I only found out it exists today.

No, but I love that picture of Hartmann on the box!   0:)
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on November 08, 2014, 07:23:23 AM
So, has anyone heard this new(ish) multi-conductor set of the Hartmann symphonies with a couple of Dutch orchestras?



I only found out it exists today.

I've owned it since it's release but have not heard a note from it (yet). :( This will change soon I hope.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: lescamil on November 08, 2014, 12:57:29 PM
I got that one a while ago. It's nice to have a bunch of live performances on disk of these underperformed works, especially with the sound enhanced on many of the recordings (I heard many of the original broadcasts). The Metzmacher is still the benchmark for me, though.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on November 10, 2014, 03:20:27 PM
I got that one a while ago. It's nice to have a bunch of live performances on disk of these underperformed works, especially with the sound enhanced on many of the recordings (I heard many of the original broadcasts). The Metzmacher is still the benchmark for me, though.

The Wergo is the benchmark for me and has yet to be bettered. :) Kubelik was a master in Hartmann's music, although, like the Challenge Classics set, the Wergo set has various conductors, but Kubelik has the most performances throughout the set.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on November 10, 2014, 03:34:17 PM
I doubt Bernstein would have been very good at all.  He was only listenable when conducting American composers' works (a quick jot thru his Beethoven symphonies will seem like chalk on a blackboard) - but he did do American composers very well indeed.

Funny how after you were so blase with "Andre" a few years ago about this composer that you've seen the light.   :)

He wrote some interesting chamber music, and one truly outstanding piano piece (the Sonata 1945.)

You're probably right about Bernstein, although I don't agree that Bernstein was just good with American composers. His Shostakovich 5th live in Japan performance, for example, remains a true audio treasure in my collection. Anyway, yes, I've come full circle with Hartmann, but, I got into the Second Viennese School before Hartmann and they certainly helped me understand the composer more, especially Berg.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Daverz on November 10, 2014, 07:51:14 PM
I doubt Bernstein would have been very good at all.  He was only listenable when conducting American composers'

QFB
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on November 11, 2014, 07:10:34 AM
QFB

QTB? ???
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Daverz on November 11, 2014, 09:03:55 AM
QTB? ???

What would be the opposite of "QFT"?
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on November 11, 2014, 07:53:29 PM
What would be the opposite of "QFT"?

What's QFT? Sorry, my internet lingo isn't the best. :)
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: jlaurson on November 12, 2014, 12:13:59 AM
So, has anyone heard this new(ish) multi-conductor set of the Hartmann symphonies with a couple of Dutch orchestras?

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00H1EOR3Y.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00H1EOR3Y/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00H1EOR3Y&linkCode=as2&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkId=LCY6D66QBDMU32C2)

I only found out it exists today.

I only found out about it a few weeks ago, too... when chatting, the management of Markus Stenz said that they thought he was so great with Hartmann and that they loved him on that new recording. WHAT new Hartmann recording?!? Needless to say, I was intrigued. 
One Dutch orchestra btw., and a bunch of very fine conductors. Have only made it through Symphony No.1 yet, and yes... the Wergo is going to be hard to surpass... but it's good to see a third set out there and certainly the sound is great.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Jo498 on November 12, 2014, 12:39:34 AM
I only know QFT as abbreviation for Quantum Field Theory, very probably not what is meant here...
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: North Star on November 12, 2014, 01:25:46 AM
[T]he Wergo is going to be hard to surpass... but it's good to see a third set out there and certainly the sound is great.
Quoted For Truth ;)
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on November 12, 2014, 07:12:23 AM
I only found out about it a few weeks ago, too... when chatting, the management of Markus Stenz said that they thought he was so great with Hartmann and that they loved him on that new recording. WHAT new Hartmann recording?!? Needless to say, I was intrigued. 
One Dutch orchestra btw., and a bunch of very fine conductors. Have only made it through Symphony No.1 yet, and yes... the Wergo is going to be hard to surpass... but it's good to see a third set out there and certainly the sound is great.

So far, I've listened to Symphonies Nos. 1-6 from this new set and have been quite impressed with the performances all-around. The audio quality is, of course, of special note here, but, yes, it's going to be hard to top the Wergo. It is great to see that there are three cycles now.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Daverz on November 12, 2014, 12:06:07 PM
I only know QFT as abbreviation for Quantum Field Theory, very probably not what is meant here...

I'm not sure what the opposite of Quantum Field Theory would be.  Maybe the Timecube guy would know.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Jo498 on November 12, 2014, 12:20:25 PM
So what are QFB and QTB?

I don't know what some people may be entertaining now but before String Theory (which is a kind of Quantum field theory for all I know) there were some "geometrical" theories in the wake of General relativity that might be considered alternative candidates for "theories of everything" or fundamental physical theories.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Scion7 on October 12, 2015, 07:19:09 PM
Not only did this guy stick it out through the Nazi years, he actively resisted (not only) through his compositions.  Dangerous thing to do.

Just recently started to explore his piano music.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on October 12, 2015, 07:40:45 PM
Not only did this guy stick it out through the Nazi years, he actively resisted (not only) through his compositions.  Dangerous thing to do.

Just recently started to explore his piano music.

How he wasn't killed by the Nazis is beyond me, but I'm certainly glad they didn't as he gave us some of the most ferocious and powerful music of the 20th Century. The first work I heard from Hartmann was his Symphony No. 2 and I was instantly hooked.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 20, 2016, 09:25:12 AM
I need to go back and listen a couple of times more, but my initial hearing of Des Simplicius Simplicissimus Jugend was pure sonic delight.  I'm sure I should enjoy it yet more, if there were an English translation of the libretto (!!), but my ignorance did not interfere with my admiration of the music.

Any source online of a translated libretto?...
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Jo498 on December 20, 2016, 09:52:37 AM
Cannot help with the libretto but the book it is based on is the most famous German novel of the 17th century (and one of the first German language novels). It is a sprawling picaresque story of a boy/young man (who goes by Simplicius Simplicissimus because he did not know his real name so a hermit who gave him some education called him the most simple-minded - of course he turns out to be quite clever) during the 30 years war. I am not sure if there is a decent English translation but I'd recommend it for everyone liking such early modern picaresque (including lots of brutality and some questionable potty humor) stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simplicius_Simplicissimus
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: ritter on December 20, 2016, 10:04:28 AM
Cannot help with the libretto but the book it is based on is the most famous German novel of the 17th century (and one of the first German language novels). It is a sprawling picaresque story of a boy/young man (who goes by Simplicius Simplicissimus because he did not know his real name so a hermit who gave him some education called him the most simple-minded - of course he turns out to be quite clever) during the 30 years war. I am not sure if there is a decent English translation but I'd recommend it for everyone liking such early modern picaresque (including lots of brutality and some questionable potty humor) stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simplicius_Simplicissimus
And Der abenteuerliche Simplicissimus Teutsch is the Grimmelshausen book so dear to George Smiley (and that remains uncollected at his club at the end) in John La Carré's Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy...
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 20, 2016, 10:12:33 AM
Thanks!
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Cato on December 20, 2016, 11:28:05 AM
I will get to work on that translation of the Simplicius libretto!
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 20, 2016, 11:46:14 AM
Greatly appreciated!
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann: English Translation for Simplicius Simplicissimus
Post by: Cato on December 21, 2016, 10:09:13 AM
As promised: here is Part I of an English Translation (mine) of the text of Simplicius Simplicissimus: perhaps this will be an opportunity to enthuse more people about the opera.

Update: just fixed two small problems in the text.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 21, 2016, 10:55:18 AM
Cool!
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Cato on August 31, 2018, 02:41:03 PM
Nearly two years without a HARTMANN comment?!   ??? :o

I placed this under the What Are You Listening To Now? topic:

Quote
Hartmann: Symphonies 6 and 7   (Call the fire department!  This music is HOT!)   $:)



I noticed that there is a new set (i.e. 2014) from the Netherlands Radio Philharmonic: any reviews?  It costs $60.00 or so, and I am wondering if the performances and sound beat Kubelik and Company in the WERGO.

Any experts here on that set?
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Daverz on August 31, 2018, 05:59:42 PM
Nearly two years without a HARTMANN comment?!   ??? :o

I placed this under the What Are You Listening To Now? topic:

Any experts here on that set?

Arkivmusic has a Fanfare review:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=1146461

And Amazon UK has some useful reviews:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Karl-Amadeus-Hartmann-Symphonies-Nos/dp/B00H1EOR3Y

I have both sets, and I think that the Challenge classics easily outclasses the old Wergo set.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: JBS on August 31, 2018, 06:07:39 PM
I have it. I see no reason to get another set. But I am not an avid Hartmannite.
ETA 11/5/18
Very belated edit for the benefit of anyone reading this thread.
When I said "I have it" I was referring to the Wergo set.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on August 31, 2018, 07:06:33 PM
Nearly two years without a HARTMANN comment?!   ??? :o

I placed this under the What Are You Listening To Now? topic:

Any experts here on that set?

I don’t think much of the Metzmacher or this newer set from Challenge Classics. I have yet to hear anyone capture the magic that Kubelik did (not to mention the on conductors in that Wergo set like Ferdinand Leitner and the other conductor(s) slip my mind at the moment). I say just stick with the Wergo set.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Cato on September 01, 2018, 02:31:34 AM
Arkivmusic has a Fanfare review:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=1146461

And Amazon UK has some useful reviews:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Karl-Amadeus-Hartmann-Symphonies-Nos/dp/B00H1EOR3Y

I have both sets, and I think that the Challenge classics easily outclasses the old Wergo set.

I have it. I see no reason to get another set. But I am not an avid Hartmannite.

I don’t think much of the Metzmacher or this newer set from Challenge Classics. I have yet to hear anyone capture the magic that Kubelik did (not to mention the on conductors in that Wergo set like Ferdinand Leitner and the other conductor(s) slip my mind at the moment). I say just stick with the Wergo set.

Okay!  Many thanks for the responses!  It looks like I have some investigating and thinking to do!  I agree with the unenthusiastic responses about Metzmacher: somehow he is just not on the same level as the conductors from the good ol' days.  Of course, Rafael Kubelik is a legend across the board: it is difficult to surpass him.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Irons on October 31, 2018, 04:49:27 AM
I have the Wergo set (LP). Listened today to the 5th Symphony - Symphony Concertante. Brilliant piece with unusual orchestration without violins and violas. I like the get up and go of the work and had to smile at the mickey-take of Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" in the middle movement.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Cato on November 05, 2018, 06:29:55 PM
I have the Wergo set (LP). Listened today to the 5th Symphony - Symphony Concertante. Brilliant piece with unusual orchestration without violins and violas. I like the get up and go of the work and had to smile at the mickey-take of Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" in the middle movement.

Whether you go backward to the earlier symphonies, or forward to the later ones - which continue with the energetic aspect of the Fifth - Hartmann will not disappoint you!
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Maestro267 on July 11, 2020, 11:21:12 AM
Ordered the first six symphonies of Hartmann's. Looking forward to hearing them.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 11, 2020, 01:21:30 PM
Ordered the first six symphonies of Hartmann's. Looking forward to hearing them.

Which recordings?
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 11, 2020, 01:38:04 PM
I find it interesting that wiser heads haven’t prevailed in terms of Wergo reissuing their mixed conductor Hartmann symphonies set (mainly Kubelik). Their set has been OOP for many years now and looks like they’re not going to reissue it. In 2023, it’ll mark the 60th anniversary of the composer’s passing. Maybe then? :-\
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: vandermolen on July 11, 2020, 10:10:46 PM
How come I never contributed to this thread?  :o
I was so impressed by his stance against the Nazis (according to Grunberger's 'A Social History of Nazi Germany' Hartmann forbade any broadcast of his music during the era of the Third Reich apart from his String Quartet based on Jewish themes!) It's hardly surprising that his music went into something of an eclipse at that time and I'm surprised that he wasn't arrested. Anyway I bought the Wergo boxed set of LPs but found that much as I admire him they weren't really my cup of tea. They did remind me a bit of Berg's music. Having said that I do greatly admire the Concerto Funebre, which quoted Czech themes at the time of the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia in 1938 (he really was pushing his luck) and also I like Symphony No.4.
Here he is:
(http://)
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Maestro267 on July 11, 2020, 11:31:49 PM
Which recordings?

Bamberg/Metzmacher. I know there's two more symphonies on another disc, but the 1-6 set was in my price range at this time. I'll pick up 7 & 8 another time.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Jo498 on July 12, 2020, 03:53:22 AM
There is another unnumbered "Sinfonia Tragica" that was recorded e.g. bei Rickenbacher on Koch/Schwann together with the 2nd.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Cato on July 12, 2020, 04:21:55 AM
OH my!  Nearly two years have gone by since I wrote here?!

I had all the major Hartmann works on vinyl, and then bought the WERGO CD set many years ago!  The Kubelik performances are classics: DGG released two of the performances (#4 and #8) on an LP, which I wore down to nothing!   :D

Here is a set I have not heard with some conductors unknown (to me):

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/hartmann-symphonies-nos-1-8 (https://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/hartmann-symphonies-nos-1-8)

 

Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 12, 2020, 05:22:34 AM
There is another unnumbered "Sinfonia Tragica" that was recorded e.g. bei Rickenbacher on Koch/Schwann together with the 2nd.

Sinfonia Tragica has also been recorded on the Capriccio label, which is the recording I own of it:

(https://img.discogs.com/3vYPHm5-2xtnLb5A97wjyTNaYdg=/fit-in/600x599/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-1522774-1526631545-6397.jpeg.jpg)
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 12, 2020, 05:26:37 AM
How come I never contributed to this thread?  :o
I was so impressed by his stance against the Nazis (according to Grunberger's 'A Social History of Nazi Germany' Hartmann forbade any broadcast of his music during the era of the Third Reich apart from his String Quartet based on Jewish themes!) It's hardly surprising that his music went into something of an eclipse at that time and I'm surprised that he wasn't arrested. Anyway I bought the Wergo boxed set of LPs but found that much as I admire him they weren't really my cup of tea. They did remind me a bit of Berg's music. Having said that I do greatly admire the Concerto Funebre, which quoted Czech themes at the time of the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia in 1938 (he really was pushing his luck) and also I like Symphony No.4.
Here he is:
(http://)

Jeffrey, I urge you to listen Symphonische Hymnen, which isn’t in the Wergo set, but you can probably find on YouTube. The performance is outstanding as Kubelik conducts the Bavarian RSO. I would say give the symphonies another chance. There’s some incredible music within them. His 6th seems to be his most lauded and I’ll agree it’s one of his best.  You should also hear the Sinfonia Tragica and Kammerkonzert.

In fact, here go, Jeffrey:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ik5CWl9UatQ
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Cato on July 12, 2020, 05:40:58 AM

Jeffrey, I urge you to listen Symphonische Hymnen, which isn’t in the Wergo set, but you can probably find on YouTube. The performance is outstanding as Kubelik conducts the Bavarian RSO. I would say give the symphonies another chance. There’s some incredible music within them. His 6th seems to be his most lauded and I’ll agree it’s one of his best.  You should also hear the Sinfonia Tragica and Kammerkonzert.


Amen!  0:)

Here are the Symphonische Hymnen:

https://www.youtube.com/v/ik5CWl9UatQ
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 12, 2020, 05:43:06 AM
Amen!  0:)

Here are the Symphonische Hymnen:

https://www.youtube.com/v/ik5CWl9UatQ

:P Looks like we both linked the same video, Cato. ;)
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 12, 2020, 05:45:56 AM
OH my!  Nearly two years have gone by since I wrote here?!

I had all the major Hartmann works on vinyl, and then bought the WERGO CD set many years ago!  The Kubelik performances are classics: DGG released two of the performances (#4 and #8) on an LP, which I wore down to nothing!   :D

Here is a set I have not heard with some conductors unknown (to me):

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/hartmann-symphonies-nos-1-8 (https://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/hartmann-symphonies-nos-1-8)

Yeah, poor ol’ K. A. Hartmann’s corner in the composer discussion section was looking quite lonely wasn’t it? I’m glad someone dusted off the cobwebs. He deserves more attention than he receives. For me, he’s the finest 20th Century German symphonist.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: vandermolen on July 12, 2020, 06:03:13 AM
Jeffrey, I urge you to listen Symphonische Hymnen, which isn’t in the Wergo set, but you can probably find on YouTube. The performance is outstanding as Kubelik conducts the Bavarian RSO. I would say give the symphonies another chance. There’s some incredible music within them. His 6th seems to be his most lauded and I’ll agree it’s one of his best.  You should also hear the Sinfonia Tragica and Kammerkonzert.

In fact, here go, Jeffrey:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ik5CWl9UatQ
Thanks very much John. I'm getting an 'Adobe Flash Player is blocked' message but, not to worry, with my Sherlock Holmes-type detective skills I shall track that work down.  :)
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mahlerian on July 12, 2020, 07:12:04 AM
I read a pretty good book last year called Hindemith, Hartmann, and Henze that went over the lives and works of those three relatively mainstream 20th century German composers.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41NqMdE+PwL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

Very non-technical and readable for any interested listener.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Maestro267 on July 12, 2020, 07:15:27 AM
Intriguing to link those three, given the age gap between Henze and the others. Henze died 49 years after the other two.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Cato on July 12, 2020, 07:18:15 AM
I read a pretty good book last year called Hindemith, Hartmann, and Henze that went over the lives and works of those three relatively mainstream 20th century German composers.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41NqMdE+PwL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

Very non-technical and readable for any interested listener.

Yes, an excellent account!  It might seem parallel to Dika Newlin's Bruckner, Mahler, Schoenberg, but no, it is rather different.  Her work is much more analytical rather than biographical.

Yeah, poor ol’ K. A. Hartmann’s corner in the composer discussion section was looking quite lonely wasn’t it? I’m glad someone dusted off the cobwebs. He deserves more attention than he receives. For me, he’s the finest 20th Century German symphonist.

Amen!  And maybe not just the finest German symphonist!  8)
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 12, 2020, 08:29:16 AM
Amen!  And maybe not just the finest German symphonist!  8)

I don’t mean to seem unfair to deal ol’ K. A., but, in the grand scheme of 20th symphonists, he’s low on my own personal list as much as I love his symphonies.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Symphonic Addict on July 12, 2020, 01:00:02 PM
His string quartets, the Concerto for piano, winds and percussion and the symphony for strings (don't remember its number) are my favorite works by Hartmann. The Concerto Funebre didn't make a strong impression on me.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 12, 2020, 02:50:19 PM
His string quartets, the Concerto for piano, winds and percussion and the symphony for strings (don't remember its number) are my favorite works by Hartmann. The Concerto Funebre didn't make a strong impression on me.

No love for the other symphonies? Have you hard Symphonische Hymnen? The 4th symphony is the one for string orchestra. I can’t stand that work Concerto for piano, winds and percussion. Oh and I adore the Concerto funbre, but also the Kammerkonzert.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Symphonic Addict on July 12, 2020, 03:31:19 PM
No love for the other symphonies? Have you hard Symphonische Hymnen? The 4th symphony is the one for string orchestra. I can’t stand that work Concerto for piano, winds and percussion. Oh and I adore the Concerto funbre, but also the Kammerkonzert.

Don't have strong memories of them at the moment, yet I do recall liking several of them, just that the one for strings stands out for its intensity and visceral expressivity.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 12, 2020, 03:34:28 PM
Don't have strong memories of them at the moment, yet I do recall liking several of them, just that the one for strings stands out for its intensity and visceral expressivity.

With as much music as you plow through, it’d be difficult to remember a lot of what you hear, especially at the rate of speed you go. :) Some things are bound to stick out more than others.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Symphonic Addict on July 12, 2020, 04:52:45 PM
With as much music as you plow through, it’d be difficult to remember a lot of what you hear, especially at the rate of speed you go. :) Some things are bound to stick out more than others.

I just tell you I am a very different listener.  ;)

I like to explore many composers and in the process I detect what composers deserve more attention than others according to my tastes, and Hartmann is not one of them (for now).
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 12, 2020, 05:04:57 PM
I just tell you I am a very different listener.  ;)

I like to explore many composers and in the process I detect what composers deserve more attention than others according to my tastes, and Hartmann is not one of them (for now).

You’re certainly different that’s for sure. ;) :P But, yes, I can relate to what you’re saying. I don’t listen to Hartmann a whole lot either.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: vandermolen on July 12, 2020, 08:09:23 PM
Amen!  0:)

Here are the Symphonische Hymnen:

https://www.youtube.com/v/ik5CWl9UatQ

Thank you Leo and John. I listened to the first few minutes and enjoyed what I heard. It reminded me a bit of Stravinsky and Schulhoff. I will certainly be investigating this work further.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Maestro267 on July 13, 2020, 02:58:17 AM
These symphonies are fantastic! No. 3 is probably the standout for me after first listen.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Cato on July 13, 2020, 03:08:52 AM
These symphonies are fantastic! No. 3 is probably the standout for me after first listen.

The Sixth Symphony is truly a spiritual wringer, but they all hit the soul in some way!
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Maestro267 on July 13, 2020, 05:45:34 AM
Yes, No. 6 is also up there. Not musically, but I've mentally grouped this cycle alongside ones like Honegger and Chávez. Namely, a decent number of symphonies, not all of which are scored for standard orchestra. Honegger has Nos. 2 (mainly strings only) and 4 (small orchestra), Chávez has 5 (strings only) and Hartmann has 4 (strings) and 5 (winds and low strings)
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 13, 2020, 05:49:43 AM
Yes, No. 6 is also up there. Not musically, but I've mentally grouped this cycle alongside ones like Honegger and Chávez. Namely, a decent number of symphonies, not all of which are scored for standard orchestra. Honegger has Nos. 2 (mainly strings only) and 4 (small orchestra), Chávez has 5 (strings only) and Hartmann has 4 (strings) and 5 (winds and low strings)

Speaking of Chávez, I wish someone would record his symphonies again. They’re in dire need of a modern update.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Maestro267 on August 16, 2020, 06:05:19 AM
Picked up the remaining 2 symphonies, coupled with a disc of piano works.

These symphonies are remarkable. No. 6 is definitely my favourite now; the finale is some of the most thrilling music I've ever heard.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Symphonic Addict on August 16, 2020, 04:01:55 PM
I can't hide my enthusiasm towards Symphonische Hymnen. What a tremendous work!! A discovery of the highest importance to me lately.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Symphonic Addict on August 16, 2020, 07:18:22 PM
+1 for the stunning string quartets. His solo piano music is still unknown to me, but I don't doubt it must be interesting.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Cato on August 17, 2020, 05:07:26 PM
I can't hide my enthusiasm towards Symphonische Hymnen. What a tremendous work!! A discovery of the highest importance to me lately.

Amen!   0:)

For those who would like to verify the truth of Symphonic Addict's statement:


https://www.youtube.com/v/ACyRtKSn4kE
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Symphonic Addict on August 17, 2020, 08:19:48 PM
Amen!   0:)

For those who would like to verify the truth of Symphonic Addict's statement:


https://www.youtube.com/v/ACyRtKSn4kE

There is no excuse to not let yourself be impressed by this work.  ;D
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Maestro267 on August 19, 2020, 02:15:12 AM
I've encountered a structural problem with the Piano Sonata on this set. The track listing gives the impression that it's a sonata in five movements, but the liner notes inside say the "fifth movement" is actually an alternate finale rather than an actual part of the sonata in its own right. So really the first four movements are the Sonata proper. Or should both movements count towards a complete performance of the Sonata?
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: pjme on August 19, 2020, 02:33:37 AM
From the Hartmann Gesellschaft

You probably listened to this work:

SONATA “27. APRIL 1945”for piano solo
Am 27. und 28. April 1945 schleppte sich ein Menschenstrom von Dachauer “Protected prisoners” an uns vorüber – unendlich war der Strom – unendlich war das Elend – unendlich war das Leid [“On April 27 and 28, 1945 a stream of ‘People in protective custody’ dragged themselves past us – infinite was the stream – infinite was the misery – infinite was the suffering -“]

I Bewegt [“Moving”]
II Presto assai (Scherzo)
III Marcia funebre (Lento)
IV 1st version: Allegro resoluto – 2nd version: Allegro furioso (Stürmisch, leidenschaftlich) [“Stormy, passionate”]
So, it is an alternate finale.

Performance duration: 16′.

First performance: June 13, 1982, musica viva, Herbert Henck (piano)

or

1ST SONATA FOR PIANO
I Toccata
II Langsamer Tanz [“Slow dance”]
III Finale

Performance duration: 14′

First performance: December 29, 1990 (Siegfried Mauser)


Read more at: https://www.hartmann-gesellschaft.de/en/karl-amadeus-hartmann/werkverzeichnis/


Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Maestro267 on August 19, 2020, 03:36:19 AM
The 1945 one, yes.

It's deeply unsettling that EMI tried to make the work seem longer than it actually is. By all means, include the alternate finale, but clearly list is as such on the tracklist, and don't add V. to it to make it feel like it's a fifth movement of the sonata as it stands, when it isn't.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Symphonic Addict on September 04, 2021, 06:36:13 PM
I must say it is a stunner. I'm talking about the Symphony No. 3 from this set. Spectacularly well played, understood, committedly done. What a work.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/514HITVrbLL._SX450_.jpg)
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on September 04, 2021, 06:47:57 PM
I must say it is a stunner. I'm talking about the Symphony No. 3 from this set. Spectacularly well played, understood, committedly done. What a work.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/514HITVrbLL._SX450_.jpg)

Yes, an awesome symphony, Cesar. I prefer the older Wergo set, though.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Symphonic Addict on September 04, 2021, 07:09:51 PM
Yes, an awesome symphony, Cesar. I prefer the older Wergo set, though.

Too bad the Wergo set is not easily available. If it were, I'd be listening to those ones too for sure. I LOVED this symphony. My kind of music.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on September 04, 2021, 07:24:28 PM
Too bad the Wergo set is not easily available. If it were, I'd be listening to those ones too for sure. I LOVED this symphony. My kind of music.

Yeah, Hartmann was a great discovery for me, too. Love so much of his music.
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Irons on September 04, 2021, 11:40:34 PM
Yeah, Hartmann was a great discovery for me, too. Love so much of his music.

The thing that amazes me most is that no two of the eight symphonies are alike. My favourites are No.4 for strings and NO.6 which blows your socks off! But they all have something special to say.

Possibly included in the Wergo CD set, the LP booklet includes a 1963 portrait of the brothers Karl Amadeus and Adolf by Adolf. Talented family!
Title: Re: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.
Post by: Mirror Image on September 05, 2021, 06:26:42 PM
The thing that amazes me most is that no two of the eight symphonies are alike. My favourites are No.4 for strings and NO.6 which blows your socks off! But they all have something special to say.

Possibly included in the Wergo CD set, the LP booklet includes a 1963 portrait of the brothers Karl Amadeus and Adolf by Adolf. Talented family!

Yes, they’re all so different and I think this speaks volumes about how versatile he was as a composer. And a big yes to Symphony No. 6! But, honestly, there are no weak links in his symphonic output.