Béla Bartók (1881-1945)

Started by facehugger, April 06, 2007, 02:41:35 PM

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aukhawk




Bartok String Quartets - Ragazze Quartet

You get a better class of cover art with Bartok - think of all the great images that have been produced for the Miraculous Mandarin - eg,


Miraculous Mandarin - Boulez (CBS)

Pohjolas Daughter

Quote from: aukhawk on January 25, 2023, 01:31:29 AM


Bartok String Quartets - Ragazze Quartet

You get a better class of cover art with Bartok - think of all the great images that have been produced for the Miraculous Mandarin - eg,


Miraculous Mandarin - Boulez (CBS)
How do you the recordings with the Ragazze Quartet (and I do love the cover artwork/design).

PD
Pohjolas Daughter

aukhawk

For me, Ragazze Quartet are the first recordings to have actually made the music pleasurable.  I couldn't say why though.

I can't claim to have tried all the main contenders by any means, but I have also tried, without much success, Emerson, Chillingirian, Takacs, and Jerusalem Quartets.

Mandryka

For me the music in Quartets 3,4,5 and 6 feels dated, just a product of its time, amusing antiques. The only people who have made these quartets sound even slightly more interesting than a historical curiosity is Hagen.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

#564
Quote from: Mandryka on January 27, 2023, 01:18:16 AMFor me the music in Quartets 3,4,5 and 6 feels dated, just a product of its time, amusing antiques. The only people who have made these quartets sound even slightly more interesting than a historical curiosity is Hagen.

I'm going to expand on this provocative thought of mine, in case anyone feels like exploring what are, after all, only sketchy ideas at the moment. They may lead nowhere.

I think there are a handful of composers who were exploring new possibilities for music in the first half of the 20th century. Obviously Schoenberg was one of them, and his way became dominant, but there were others who were less successful in finding followers. I'd say Scriabin is one, and possibly Hindemith too. I think Bartok also.

I think Hagen have seen this and revealed this better than anyone else I can remember hearing.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Pohjolas Daughter

Interesting.  Thanks for your thoughts.

PD
Pohjolas Daughter

Jo498

Quote from: Mandryka on January 27, 2023, 01:18:16 AMFor me the music in Quartets 3,4,5 and 6 feels dated, just a product of its time, amusing antiques. The only people who have made these quartets sound even slightly more interesting than a historical curiosity is Hagen.
Which music of ca. 1920-40 does not feel "dated" to you?
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Mandryka

Quote from: Jo498 on January 27, 2023, 04:04:37 AMWhich music of ca. 1920-40 does not feel "dated" to you?

Lots of things by Varèse

Possibly the Satie nocturnes - partly because of the way they anticipate composers like Skempton and Crane.

I also want to say Bartok's "night music" - but I need to listen hard and think.


I'm sure there are other things Jo, I've just got to go out and thinking about the reply has already made me late.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Jo498

For me it's the other way round. Satie is about the most boring stuff I can think of and the little I have heard of Varese I found gimmicky "avantgarde for its own sake".
Bartok' best like the string quartets, piano concertos etc. is about the closest music of that time gets to greatness that seems to transcend a particular time. But I knew before that we have almost diametrically opposed aesthetics, so it's not a surprise ;)
Nevertheless, yours seems a minority opinion as Bartok's quartets must be among the music of the 1920s-30s that is most frequently played today.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Mandryka

The reason I mentioned Bartok's night music (say, in the Out of Doors suite) is really the way it seems to anticipate music by Friedrich Cherha.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

DavidW

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 23, 2023, 04:48:43 PM

Since this seems the thread most suited to it, allow me to cross-post the Survey of Bartók String Quartet Cycles here.

Still interested in what people think their favorites are and which should be the recommended cycles.

Thanks for this, I didn't know about the Jerusalem Q recordings.  I'm listening now and they are terrific!

Mandryka

#571
Quote from: Jo498 on January 27, 2023, 05:23:26 AMFor me it's the other way round. Satie is about the most boring stuff I can think of and the little I have heard of Varese I found gimmicky "avantgarde for its own sake".
Bartok' best like the string quartets, piano concertos etc. is about the closest music of that time gets to greatness that seems to transcend a particular time. But I knew before that we have almost diametrically opposed aesthetics, so it's not a surprise ;)
Nevertheless, yours seems a minority opinion as Bartok's quartets must be among the music of the 1920s-30s that is most frequently played today.

I wonder if you're confusing Varèse's later music with the stuff from the stipulated period - I was thinking really of Amériques.

Hard to say whether Bartok's stuff can compete with the most popular classical music from the period, because the competition is stiff - The Lark Ascending, for example, and Rhapsody in Blue.

One piece I didn't realise until just now which falls into the stipulated period is Copland's piano variations - definitely not of its time IMO (I find it really challenging actually, never got into its groove..)
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Artem

Quote from: Mandryka on January 27, 2023, 06:39:58 AMThe reason I mentioned Bartok's night music (say, in the Out of Doors suite) is really the way it seems to anticipate music by Friedrich Cherha.
I am a big fan of Cerha, but not very familiar with Bartok. Are there any works by these two composers you'd recommend to check to hear the anticipation you mention in your post?

Mandryka

Quote from: Artem on January 27, 2023, 08:04:20 AMI am a big fan of Cerha, but not very familiar with Bartok. Are there any works by these two composers you'd recommend to check to hear the anticipation you mention in your post?

I'm not sure I'm right about it  - but try Cerha's Langegger Nachtmusik I and the The Night's Music from  Bartok's Out of Doors piano suite.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

#574
Quote from: Mandryka on January 27, 2023, 08:16:44 AMI'm not sure I'm right about it  - but try Cerha's Langegger Nachtmusik I and the The Night's Music from  Bartok's Out of Doors piano suite.

I just googled "Cerha Bartok" and this Gramophone review popped up - so there are at least two people in the world who hear a connection!


https://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/cerha-chamber-music

Listening now to Langegger Nachtmusik III - it has Bartok all over it! (Maybe!)
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Dry Brett Kavanaugh

Quote from: Jo498 on January 27, 2023, 05:23:26 AMFor me it's the other way round. Satie is about the most boring stuff I can think of and the little I have heard of Varese I found gimmicky "avantgarde for its own sake".
Bartok' best like the string quartets, piano concertos etc. is about the closest music of that time gets to greatness that seems to transcend a particular time. But I knew before that we have almost diametrically opposed aesthetics, so it's not a surprise ;)
Nevertheless, yours seems a minority opinion as Bartok's quartets must be among the music of the 1920s-30s that is most frequently played today.


Some of Satie tunes, ie. Files des Etoiles, Nocturnes, etc. sound very attractive to me while his "humorous" works annoy me. Bartok piano albums I currently like are below.







SurprisedByBeauty

Quote from: Artem on January 27, 2023, 08:04:20 AMI am a big fan of Cerha, but not very familiar with Bartok. Are there any works by these two composers you'd recommend to check to hear the anticipation you mention in your post?

I second Mandryka's recommendation: re: Cerha.

And for Bartok, to hear how he preceded modernity, I would go with the Huguette Drefyus recording of Mikrokosmos selections on the harpsichord, which is a MOST beloved freaky little favorite of mine!

Mandryka

#577
Any thoughts about the bagatelles op 6?  Busoni vibes there IMO.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 28, 2023, 02:29:09 AMI second Mandryka's recommendation: re: Cerha.

And for Bartok, to hear how he preceded modernity, I would go with the Huguette Drefyus recording of Mikrokosmos selections on the harpsichord, which is a MOST beloved freaky little favorite of mine!

There's something weird about taking early 20th century music, playing it on an 18th century instrument, and then saying that the result heralds modernity. Would you say the same of Saint Wanda's Chopin?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_LuxbNw89Y&ab_channel=Beckmesser2
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Herman

Quote from: Mandryka on January 27, 2023, 06:39:58 AMPossibly the Satie nocturnes - partly because of the way they anticipate composers like Skempton and Crane.

The reason I mentioned Bartok's night music (say, in the Out of Doors suite) is really the way it seems to anticipate music by Friedrich Cherha.

pardon me for pasting together two quotes from different posts. However, I was wondering whether you weren't making the same mistake as used to be made about Haydn or Mozart in the way they were or weren't foreshadowing Beethoven?
I'm not sure whether music gets better when it does this.
For instance, JS Bach was not presaging anything; he was rather a provincial fuddy duddy who was still into fugues while everybody else was way ahead.
It doesn't make him a lesser composer.