It started all with the SQ I bought on MDG, and now with the Symphonies.
I simply adore this composer, diving deeper and deeper into 20th century music.
I would like to have some chambermusic recommendations if possible, and discuss this composer.
More admireres on the board?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Krenek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Krenek)
Ernst Krenek
And the last I have!
Krenek's 2nd Symphony is an amazing and gripping piece. I have long suspected it provided the template for Shostakovich's 4th - there are a lot of similarities.
Unfortunately nothing else I've heard from Krenek has made a comparable impression on me.
Quote from: Spitvalve on April 10, 2007, 06:07:09 AM
Krenek's 2nd Symphony is an amazing and gripping piece. I have long suspected it provided the template for Shostakovich's 4th - there are a lot of similarities.
Unfortunately nothing else I've heard from Krenek has made a comparable impression on me.
Thanks for this, amazing and gripping it is. So much so, that I keep coming back to it. :)
Thanks to the Southwest Chamber Music Society when I lived in SoCal, I attended several Krenek concerts, including several world premieres, and met the composer once. Krenek is an incredible composer. It is almost impossible to pin him down to any particular style or school. Even at 90, he kept growing artistically. It is incredible!
From what I have heard, I much prefer his chamber music to his orchestral ones. The vocal music is good as well.
For what I heard in concert, look for an Orfeo CD or two, performed by the Southwest Chamber Music Society. For his piano music, the recording by Douglas Madge or by Maria Yudina are both good for my taste.
Quote from: springrite on April 10, 2007, 06:46:56 AM
Thanks to the Southwest Chamber Music Society when I lived in SoCal, I attended several Krenek concerts, including several world premieres, and met the composer once. Krenek is an incredible composer. It is almost impossible to pin him down to any particular style or school. Even at 90, he kept growing artistically. It is incredible!
From what I have heard, I much prefer his chamber music to his orchestral ones. The vocal music is good as well.
For what I heard in concert, look for an Orfeo CD or two, performed by the Southwest Chamber Music Society. For his piano music, the recording by Douglas Madge or by Maria Yudina are both good for my taste.
Thanks my friend I will take a peak at Orfeo. Nice info you shared!
Quote from: Spitvalve on April 10, 2007, 06:07:09 AM
Krenek's 2nd Symphony is an amazing and gripping piece. I have long suspected it provided the template for Shostakovich's 4th - there are a lot of similarities.
I thought that was Gavriil Popov's Symphony no. 1... but this Krenek work is something I still need to hear and that's as good an incentive as any!
Indeed the string quartets, which Harry started with, are probably the best place to start for Krenek discovery. From the almost Schubertian 5th to the 12 tone 6th to the eclectic 8th (multiple styles with quotations and references to previous quartets), they are, roughly speaking, benchmark works in Krenek's almost 80 year compositional career.
I still have not heard any of Krenek's operas. Shame on me.
Wait, I did hear Jonny. It is Karl V that I missed.
I find Krenek to be hit and miss for me. I have the Lothar Zagrosek led version of the Second Symphony, and while there are some intriguing parts to it, I find it too long and not involving enough.
The Fifth and Eighth string quartets on the now defunct CRI label are more uniformly interesting, and widely different, though I can't say that he's anywhere near my favorite composers in this genre.
I've also heard the Orfeo Karl V and rather enjoyed it's dense, knotty, uncompromising sound and vision. Jonny spielt auf has some wonderful musical moments and novel dramatic conceits, but it's not substantive enough for its length and warrants rare listens.
I probably should give more of his chamber music a try, now that I think about it.
I picked up my first Krenek LP about 35 years ago and continue to enjoy him today.
However, unlike Todd, I found that Karl V was a real disappointment. Especially when I waited years after hearing an orchestral work - I think it is called Pieces of Karl V but I am too far from my collection to check - that was taken from the opera.
I agree with Paul that Krenek's chamber work is a must listen - I think his piano sonatas with Madge playing are some of the best of the 20th century - but there is little of his work that I would not suggest.
BTW Paul those Southwest Chamber recordings are being offered for $50 to $100 per on Amazon.
Well that settles it, that is too much money I think!
Quote from: UB on April 11, 2007, 02:21:03 AM
BTW Paul those Southwest Chamber recordings are being offered for $50 to $100 per on Amazon.
Good thing I picked them up for $6.99 at BRO when I had a chance, then!
Quote from: springrite on April 11, 2007, 05:28:42 AM
Good thing I picked them up for $6.99 at BRO when I had a chance, then!
What blessing befalls you! ;D
hhmmm... someday I might explore Krenek...
There's so many composers it's hopeless!
Never ever start thinking in that line my friend. I never do and it fares me well! 8)
Quote from: Harry on April 11, 2007, 06:27:30 AM
Never ever start thinking in that line my friend. I never do and it fares me well! 8)
Well, you don't need to think that way Harry. You can just buy whatever you want. Orders of 800 CDs are just impossible for me.
Let me put this into perspective: You just spend 10.000 euros into CDs. I earned (before unembloyment) 12.871,83 euros before taxes last year. I also got 2.065,40 worth of social security. So, my incomes last year were 14.937,23 euros before taxes. Taxes are 1.952,05 euros. So, my netto incomes last years were about 13.000 euros.
My rent in 506,91 euros/month = 6.082,92 euros/year.
Internet connection: 25,00 euros/month x 12 months = 300 euros/year
Electricity: 180 euros/year
Food: 1.200 euros/year
etc.
If I don't get a job soon this year will be a total financial catastrophe compared to the "good" last year.
So, unlike you I am struggling.
Quote from: 71 dB on April 11, 2007, 06:49:56 AM
Well, you don't need to think that way Harry. You can just buy whatever you want. Orders of 800 CDs are just impossible for me.
Let me put this into perspective: You just spend 10.000 euros into CDs. I earned (before unembloyment) 12.871,83 euros before taxes last year. I also got 2.065,40 worth of social security. So, my incomes last year were 14.937,23 euros before taxes. Taxes are 1.952,05 euros. So, my netto incomes last years were about 13.000 euros.
My rent in 506,91 euros/month = 6.082,92 euros/year.
Internet connection: 25,00 euros/month x 12 months = 300 euros/year
Electricity: 180 euros/year
Food: 1.200 euros/year
etc.
If I don't get a job soon this year will be a total financial catastrophe compared to the "good" last year.
So, unlike you I am struggling.
Well to put matters into perspective, I too have to save money. For this project for a year I have laid aside every penny, to purchase those 800 cd's.
So I cannot buy whatever I want. And if you have that impression its not right. 10 years ago I was in the same position as you, so I know what you feel!
I know how hard this situation is for you.
I cannot give you money, but I will gladly lend from time to time a few things I bought.
Quote from: Harry on April 11, 2007, 06:59:35 AM
Well to put matters into perspective, I too have to save money. For this project for a year I have laid aside every penny, to purchase those 800 cd's.
So I cannot buy whatever I want. And if you have that impression its not right. 10 years ago I was in the same position as you, so I know what you feel!
I know how hard this situation is for you.
I cannot give you money, but I will gladly burn from time to time a few things I bought.
Yeah, it certainly takes time to save 10.000 euros. Why did you make one megaorder? I want to keep buying on monthly basis even if it means just a few CDs per month.
Don't worry about me Harry. I'm okay. Just explaining why I can't explore 100 new composers here and now. ;)
Quote from: 71 dB on April 11, 2007, 07:36:40 AM
Yeah, it certainly takes time to save 10.000 euros. Why did you make one megaorder? I want to keep buying on monthly basis even if it means just a few CDs per month.
Don't worry about me Harry. I'm okay. Just explaining why I can't explore 100 new composers here and now. ;)
To get a large discount my friend! :)
Quote from: Harry on April 11, 2007, 07:42:58 AM
To get a large discount my friend! :)
With the size of your orders, you should get wholesale prices. I should tag my order on your coat tail. Even with shipping it should be better than what I usually get.
Quote from: springrite on April 11, 2007, 07:55:15 AM
With the size of your orders, you should get wholesale prices. I should tag my order on your coat tail. Even with shipping it should be better than what I usually get.
Well said dear friend, from the big country were is enough room for me and my cd's! ;D
Although there is no tail on my coat! ::)
But its true, I get all my orders with big discounts, as being a very good customer. 8)
I just wonder Harry, when you order that much cd's and they start coming in, is there enough time to listen to them seriously, and do you listen to them more than once? I do not own that much cd's - perhaps 1100 or 1200 - but I have listened to them all and i keep coming back to mnany of them. By the way I do not want to pry, just being curious.
X
Quote from: XXXPawn on April 14, 2007, 11:44:20 AM
I just wonder Harry, when you order that much cd's and they start coming in, is there enough time to listen to them seriously, and do you listen to them more than once? I do not own that much cd's - perhaps 1100 or 1200 - but I have listened to them all and i keep coming back to many of them. By the way I do not want to pry, just being curious.
X
Well I told it many times, but for you I do it again my friend.
I listen to all cd's at least four times seriously, that 's the only way I can listen :)
I keep coming back to a lot of them, but I am not bothered by the fact, that maybe some of them will never see the inside of my player again.
I love new discoveries, and that is one of the reasons why I buy that many cd's.
Thank you Harry, sorry but I didn't read it before. I agree that one of the joys of music is sailing into uncharted waters and discovering new wonders. Another is deepening one's understanding by coming back over and over again to the same music. It never ends really.
X
Well I will certainly do that with Pettersson! :)
and again I concur. Pettersson's 7th is to me one of the most moving pieces of music I know.
X
Quote from: XXXPawn on April 14, 2007, 12:22:36 PM
and again I concur. Pettersson's 7th is to me one of the most moving pieces of music I know.
X
Yes, you could say that aloud, devastatingly so!
With every symphony my addiction gets worse.
Harry, could you tell me more about the Krenek symphonies? I know you are, like me, much addicted to Pettersson; any similarities between these two?
Quote from: Shunk_Manitu_Tanka on October 15, 2007, 03:00:26 AM
Harry, could you tell me more about the Krenek symphonies? I know you are, like me, much addicted to Pettersson; any similarities between these two?
In Symphonic structure they are yes. Krenek has the same message, but in a totally different way, but not less in quality or attraction.
If you love Pettersson, my guess is, you will like Krenek also. And they are coming cheap from CPO.
Krenek is a very good orchestrator, and writes in a very economic way, something I heard recently again in his complete SQ, tonal and very intense like Pettersson, and as rewarding.
Quote from: Harry on October 15, 2007, 03:25:26 AM
In Symphonic structure they are yes. Krenek has the same message, but in a totally different way, but not less in quality or attraction.
If you love Pettersson, my guess is, you will like Krenek also. And they are coming cheap from CPO.
Krenek is a very good orchestrator, and writes in a very economic way, something I heard recently again in his complete SQ, tonal and very intense like Pettersson, and as rewarding.
Then i must give him a listen. I'll come back to you about it. Thanks!
Investigate without delay the Lamentations of Jeremiah (on Globe eg). There are other admirers of this mighty choral work on the board.
Quote from: erato on October 15, 2007, 04:03:11 AM
Investigate without delay the Lamentations of Jeremiah (on Globe eg). There are other admirers of this mighty choral work on the board.
Absolutely an amazing work. I was going to recommend the
Harmonia Mundi recording with the
Berlin RIAS Kammerchor and
Marcus Creed, but it's out of print and the asking prices are a little on the high side. I have heard the piece live, but no other recordings.
--Bruce
Krenek is a great composer - as Glenn Gould always insisted - whose work is however so large that it is inevitably uneven. Apart from the piano sonatas, there are wonderful piano pieces by Madge (hilarious George Washington Variations) & chamber works by the Trio Recherche on CPO, very recommendable. Then there is Krenek himself conducting the NDR symphony orchestra in various fascinating works on EMI. Essential is the Reisebuch aus den österreichischen Alpen, preferably in the historical recording by Patzak, but there are others more recent: it is a kind of socio-political Winterreise of the 1930s, if you can imagine that. I still have to discover his Lieder in all their vast range. One amazing work, which I think has still not made it to CD, is his Instant Remembered, settings for soprano & chamber orchestra of various poems interspersed with texts (by Wittgenstein & Rilke, for instance) spoken by Krenek himself on tape. I attended a concert by the Ensemble Modern in Frankfurt with this years ago, unforgettable, so if it ever gets recorded...
Allow me to introduce the First Symphony to you!
It has 9 movements (?!?) played without a break, and the orchestra has a Hindemithian flavor to it. The opening 2 movements offer a swift wandering theme which leads to much Sturm und Drang. But there is an ironical inconclusiveness about it all, and it finally winds down to a gloomy thrid section, which might remind one of the opening of Schoenberg's Pelleas und Melisande. Eventually this gives way to 2 rather spritely galloping movements, humorous, but heavily humorous in a stereotypically Teutonic fashion.
A contrapuntal fantasy of sorts with attempts at climaxes follows: snare drums roar in and one feels that a huge, dramatic climax is about to occur, but it doesn't! Krenek teases the listener constantly with these witty "almosts" and brings back a memory of the opening swirling theme. The humor again seems to disappear into an even deeper gloom than before, with anxious conversations among the strings, clarinets, and other woodwinds. A new dialogue in the woodwinds attempts to lighten the atmosphere but fails. There is another build-up to a minor proclamation, but that also fades away into a very beautiful and mysterious part where the woodwinds sound very wistful.
This brings us to the 8th movement where the lower strings debate with bassoons and clarinets about snapping out of the gloom and mystery, and you think new energy is about to assert itself...but it doesn't! The "wandering" opening re-appears full circle and starts a fugue which brings back the light-heartedness heard earlier. Finally the orchestra proclaims a mighty ending in the 9th movement...but not quite! The mysterious whimsy pops up again, and the work ends like Elmer Fudd: vewy vewy quietly!
All of this in 30 minutes :o Krenek composed it at age 21 this while under the "guidance" of Franz Schreker. A fun work, but also with its deeper moments.
Um, Krenek! I don't quite know what to think about his music. He lived to be 91 and wrote a considerable amount of music in a variety of styles. I am afraid that I do find some of his later, serial works somewhat arid but the early symphonies from the 1920s(Nos.1-3) are certainly interesting exercises in a young man attempting to develop the symphonic concept in a post-Mahler Central European setting.
CPO performed a useful service in recording those three symphonies together with No.5 from 1949 but it is very odd that the company never got around to recording No.4 from 1947. CPO is a company which excels in presenting cycles of composers' works and the symphonies they have issued were recorded over ten years ago now!
(Oh, one other thing-how many people who live to be 91 publish an autobiography of 1,000 pages at the age of 52?? Apparently Krenek could be quite a difficult customer!)
I have just relistened to Krenek's Symphony #2 and would like to give you some thoughts on it.
I have two CD's, one on cpo with Takao Ukigaya conducting the Hannover Radio Orchestra (NDR) and one on Decca with the Leipzig Gewandhaus under Lothar Zagrosek.
Of interest are the notes to each: the Decca claims that in contrast to the "atonal" First Symphony ( a complete misnomer), the Second is "more convincing...and coherent in form." Whereas the cpo musicologist claims the Second is "atonal" (again, a complete misnomer) and "so complex in form that it creates the auditory impression of amorphousness" defying analysis!
Krenek himself is quoted in both booklets, one from his notes for the American premiere in the 1940's (Decca) and one from Krenek's memoirs (cpo). The composer has some slightly contradictory things to say about the work: in the notes for the American performance, he calls the work basically a Man vs. Nature conception: the opening "reminds me of the brewing mist at dawn, high in the mountains..." with "the human element" represented as small in contrast. "...(the) climaxes suggest... elemental energies."
However, in the memoirs we read that the symphony, at least in the first 2 movements, evokes "the image of a giant circling in his cage or cave...the first movement is full of his dreadful exertions to break through the walls..." The afore-mentioned climaxes are now called "the cries of the poor souls in purgatory."
Certainly the work is not atonal any more than the Prokofiev Second or Third Symphonies: both booklets imply that the work is almost a Mahler Eleventh Symphony for three reasons: the Scherzo has a faint echo now and then of the scherzos of the Mahler Tenth, the last movement has two sections evoking the wandering motto theme which opens that work, and Krenek was about to marry Mahler's daughter when he composed this work.
The Hindemithian sound of the First Symphony is here replaced by a more traditional, large, post-Romantic sound, but via the modernism of the 1920's. I occasionally hear whiffs of Busoni, and the second wandering unison theme mentioned in the last movement reminds me more of the finale to Schoenberg's Jacob's Ladder, a work however that Krenek could not have known.
Well worth your time is the Second Symphony: it is never boring, and you can never be sure where Krenek will take you next in his drama.
Thank you Cato, for this fine review! :)
Quote from: Harry on October 19, 2007, 11:24:29 PM
Thank you Cato, for this fine review! :)
Certainly! Anything to further interest in Krenek!
Coming soon: a translation of something highly interesting in
Stockhausen's Spaceship!
Members might be interested to know that on his website the conductor Alun Francis has a discography and that amongst the recordings he has made for CPO he lists-
Krenek's Symphony No.4 and the Concerto Grosso-recorded with the North German Radio Philharmonic, Hanover.
This is the missing so far unrecorded Krenek symphony :)
I wonder when CPO intend to release this recording?? Harry, do you know?
Also listed by Alun Francis is another CPO recording of Alfredo Casella's Symphony No.3 with the Cologne Radio Symphony Orchestra; also, so far, unreleased.
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 28, 2008, 05:56:43 PM
Members might be interested to know that on his website the conductor Alun Francis has a discography and that amongst the recordings he has made for CPO he lists-
Krenek's Symphony No.4 and the Concerto Grosso-recorded with the North German Radio Philharmonic, Hanover.
This is the missing so far unrecorded Krenek symphony :)
I wonder when CPO intend to release this recording?? Harry, do you know?
Also listed by Alun Francis is another CPO recording of Alfredo Casella's Symphony No.3 with the Cologne Radio Symphony Orchestra; also, so far, unreleased.
As far as I know this recording is scheduled this year, but I will ask Gudrun, she is my inside spy. ;D
Thanks, Harry :) If you do get any info' on the Krenek and the Casella please let us know :)
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 29, 2008, 11:28:12 AM
Thanks, Harry :) If you do get any info' on the Krenek and the Casella please let us know :)
Of course
Colin, will do.
She is on holidays now in Austria, but as soon as she is back I call her.
Regarding the late serial works being 'arid' :That's certainly a fair comment, but I still recommend these works, some of them are a lot of fun, like the Eleven Transparencies or the Brazilian Sinfonietta, both of which the composer himself conducted. The Sestina is extremely arid, actually, but I find it fascinating somehow.
i love the arid late works of mid century composers!
i'm really interested in krenek's string quartets. i've been reading reviews on amazon...
1-2 are in his early style?
3-4 begin a different style?
no5 (the "schubertian")?
no6 "the classic"?
no7 the last of the canon (1949?)
no8 the "retrospective"?
i've heard the sonore are acceptable but not perfect. the peterson quartet has recorded 1/7 and 3/5, and then there's the cri disc.(5/8)
i hear no.6 is the highpoint.
and he is very stern, expressionistic, no?
i used to have the cpo chamber disc including solo strings and trios, and recall that having some of that arid thing going on, but lately krenek seems to be right behind hindemith in popularity, and krenek's qrt cycle seems more imposing. alas, $$$ prevent me at the time, but if you have any special thoughts on these qrts. i'm all ears.
and any more examples of the "arid" thing would be welcomed (kind of like late malipiero maybe?). if by arid you mean bald and unattractive and uncompromisingly harsh, by all means.
Yep...that's pretty much my definition of 'arid' ;D
A downloadable recording of Krenek's Symphony for wind + percussion op.34 can be found at
http://www.avantgardeproject.org/AGP35/index.htm
Quote from: Harry on December 29, 2008, 11:09:45 AM
As far as I know this recording is scheduled this year, but I will ask Gudrun, she is my inside spy. ;D
This seems to have been released only now by cpo - see today's review in the
Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/jul/07/krenek-symphony-review
I only know #1, 2, and 5 of the symphonies. I may change my mind, but I find his shorter orchestral works more impressive, and his vocal works most of all, especially the
Reisebuch and
Instant Remembered*. I have also been delighted by his 3rd Piano Concerto - short, coruscating and abrasive, in an abrasive (in the bad sense) old recording with Dimitri Mitropoulos conducting and playing. What snypyrrr would call "arid" ;)
* If you google krenek instant remembered, you first find a short appreciation of the work from a book on his music and secondly a link to a film with a Krenek interview, discussion of his work in context and performances of two works including IR, with the same singer as in the performance I saw the Ens.Modern do in Frankfurt back in the day - played at 34 minutes into the film.
Quote from: The new erato on October 15, 2007, 04:03:11 AM
Investigate without delay the Lamentations of Jeremiah (on Globe eg). There are other admirers of this mighty choral work on the board.
It was around the time of the composition of
Threni Stravinsky became acquainted with Krenek and his composition technique of rotations, which Krenek published. I am no technical expert and get bogged down in terminology (and always have done so), but having read Krenek's explanation and the heavyweight Cambridge guide to late Stravinsky, who adopted and adapted Krenek's methods. This resulted, ultimately in his final major work, the amazing
Requiem Canticles (I now have 6 recordings of this, I truly am a sad person).
Ionarts: Krenek Beyond Jonny
Friday, August 29, 2008
The second-to-last recording the Petersen Quartet issued on Capriccio
is indicative of their strengths: It's the second part of an unofficial Ernst
Krenek String Quartet cycle containing Quartets Nos. 3 and 5. ... (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/06/krenek-beyond-jonny.html)
Just finished listening to Krenek's 4th Symphony in the new CPO release.
Extraordinary that it has taken the company about 16 years to complete their Krenek cycle! The 4th was actually recorded five years ago. Wonder why it took them so long to release the disc??
I have to say that I actually liked the 4th (despite some of things I may have said about Krenek here two years ago ;D). Certainly not an 'arid' piece at all! But then I have listened to quite a lot of late Wellesz recently so my ear has perhaps become more attuned to the sound world.
Quote from: Brewski on October 15, 2007, 01:46:08 PM
Absolutely an amazing work. I was going to recommend the Harmonia Mundi recording with the Berlin RIAS Kammerchor and Marcus Creed, but it's out of print and the asking prices are a little on the high side. I have heard the piece live, but no other recordings.
--Bruce
It's listed in the current HM catalogue and available on Amazon.com and Amazon.fr at normal prices :
http://www.amazon.com/Krenek-Lamentatio-Jeremiæ-Prophetæ-Ernst/dp/B001927MJ0/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1311606976&sr=1-2
http://www.amazon.fr/Krenek-Lamentatio-Jeremiæ-Prophetæ-Ernst/dp/B001927MJ0/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1311606909&sr=1-2
Quote from: Dundonnell on July 24, 2011, 03:05:01 PMI have to say that I actually liked the 4th (despite some of things I may have said about Krenek here two years ago ;D). Certainly not an 'arid' piece at all! But then I have listened to quite a lot of late Wellesz recently so my ear has perhaps become more attuned to the sound world.
You're a good man, Dundonnell, and I'm glad you said all this. When I first strolled across this thread, I was very put off by remarks that the later works (
Horizont umkreist is my favorite, so far) are "arid." Arid? These endlessly inventive and delightful works? These intriguing and engaging and charming pieces arid?
And you have charmed, yourself, with this insightful comment, that to enjoy any kind of music, your ear has to become attuned to its sound world. For music of the past, that tuning comes already done, almost; a cultural heredity as it were. Which has seduced many unwary posters into strange opinions about how older music is more "natural" or about how newer music is "sterile" or "ignores the audience" or whatever, none of which are true.
Anyway, bravo, Dundonnell, and may many others find and enjoy this very fine and very overdue recording of Krenek's 4th!
Musical appreciation is a voyage of discovery ;D
If one revises one's opinion of a composer ow a particular piece one should say so :)
Any love for Krenek today? I've always wanted to try the String Quartets, the Symphonies.
Toch vs. Krenek?
Quote from: jlaurson on May 12, 2013, 09:43:06 AM
Toch's music develops along linear lines... Krenek... is all over the frigging place.
Hard to say... but I think I like the best of Toch better than the best of Krenek, but Krenek randomly or on average more than Toch? Ah, heck, I don't really know. I do know I would never be without the Reisebuch. I also think that Toch's is the more universally (German/Austrian-independent) appreciable language.
things that make you go hmmm!!!! Sampling today found me begging for something other than German mid-century angst. I could perhaps be in the mood one day.
btw- the String Quartets (on the MDG label) are priced astronomically, won't be BUYING any Krenek, haha!!
If anyone could recommend the best Krenek?...
for starters:
Music For Chamber Orchestra (Toccata Classics)
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007PQ5142/goodmusicguide-20)
Piano Sonata No.3, G.Gould (Sony)
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000UJ2OBO/goodmusicguide-20)
Symphony No. 4; Concerto Grosso (cpo)
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004VCORQ6/goodmusicguide-20)
Motets After Kafka (Harmonia Mundi)
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003064CZU/goodmusicguide-20)
Reisebuch, Holzmair (Philips)
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000007N5H/goodmusicguide-20) (Also very good; perhaps better... grumpy Viennese: Patzak (Preiser). Both probably useless for non native speakers.)
No Krenek recommendation thread should omit his Lamentations of Jeremiah; good versions on both Globe (IIRC; I have it) and HM.
Quote from: jlaurson on May 13, 2013, 08:17:48 AM
for starters:
Music For Chamber Orchestra (Toccata Classics)
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007PQ5142/goodmusicguide-20)
Piano Sonata No.3, G.Gould (Sony)
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000UJ2OBO/goodmusicguide-20)
Symphony No. 4; Concerto Grosso (cpo)
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004VCORQ6/goodmusicguide-20)
Motets After Kafka (Harmonia Mundi)
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003064CZU/goodmusicguide-20)
Reisebuch, Holzmair (Philips)
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000007N5H/goodmusicguide-20) (Also very good; perhaps better... grumpy Viennese: Patzak (Preiser). Both probably useless for non native speakers.)
Quote from: The new erato on May 14, 2013, 12:29:13 AM
No Krenek recommendation thread should omit his Lamentations of Jeremiah; good versions on both Globe (IIRC; I have it) and HM.
Thanks guys.
btw- no one has commented on that fact that Krenek's FACE is arid!!!!!!!Yoww!!!! His face looks like Sibelius's 4th!!
Sibelius had four faces? Or more? . . .
Quote from: snyprrr on May 13, 2013, 07:17:24 AM
If anyone could recommend the best Krenek?...
Certainly the first two symphonies are a must, and yes, the
Lamentations also!
And
JLaurson is correct:
Krenek's musical career does take you "all over the place!"
As to his visage, I believe the syndrome is called these days "Smoker's Face."
I'm just trying to keep Krenek, Toch, and Wellesz together. Patience...
Quote from: 71 dB on April 11, 2007, 06:23:21 AM
hhmmm... someday I might explore Krenek...
Six years have gone and I still haven't explored Krenek. ;D
Quote from: The new erato on October 15, 2007, 04:03:11 AM
Investigate without delay the Lamentations of Jeremiah (on Globe eg). There are other admirers of this mighty choral work on the board.
Agreed. Krenek spent some energy studying Medieval polyphony and carved something of a unique path, i.e. writing 12-tone works in the style of Machaut and Dufay. A fascinating composer.
Besides the
Lamentations, his symphonies and string quartets are where I would start. Someone made a comparison with Wellesz, and I agree, their sound-worlds are in the same territory. As a side note, when Stravinsky began composing in the serial style, Krenek was a great help. His little book on 12-tone counterpoint was really the only source Stravinsky used beyond learning the basics of row manipulation from Craft. Krenek's rotational arrays were his contribution to serial thinking, and which Stravinsky employed until the end of his life.
Quote from: sanantonio on March 06, 2014, 04:35:06 AM
Agreed. Krenek spent some energy studying Medieval polyphony and carved something of a unique path, i.e. writing 12-tone works in the style of Machaut and Dufay. A fascinating composer.
Besides the Lamentations, his symphonies and string quartets are where I would start. Someone made a comparison with Wellesz, and I agree, their sound-worlds are in the same territory. As a side note, when Stravinsky began composing in the serial style, Krenek was a great help. His little book on 12-tone counterpoint was really the only source Stravinsky used beyond learning the basics of row manipulation from Craft. Krenek's rotational arrays were his contribution to serial thinking, and which Stravinsky employed until the end of his life.
Since that 2007 post I have investigated the symphonies (there's a post somewhere). Very varied stylistically, and mostly very good or better.
Quote from: Harry on April 10, 2007, 05:50:52 AM
It started all with the SQ I bought on MDG, and now with the Symphonies.
I simply adore this composer, diving deeper and deeper into 20th century music.
I would like to have some chambermusic recommendations if possible, and discuss this composer.
More admireres on the board?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Krenek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Krenek)
Not sure I'm such a fan but I met him, and attended what was the Canadian premiere of his latest quartet. Long long ago.
There's some nice a cappella religious stuff.
I've just discovered Krenek's Symphonic Elegy and Works for String Orchestra conducted by Kovacic on Capreccio Records. A great performance of some of the composer's finest music. His different periods are represented well. I used to assume his work would be academic sounding, seing what a pedagogue he was, but these works are highly lyrical and fuse the Romantic and modern periods in an accessable way. I remember trying to play his 12-tone children's pieces long ago. His music is a bit on the dark side but it's clear that he has a master's handle on the atonal pieces (they don't strike me as atonal but they are) and that he was a great influence on composers in Europe and the USA alike.
Taking advantage of the fact that the Ernst Krenek thread has been bumped ;), this new release (scheduled for Early July) seems worth mentioning:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51eZhN5ARFL.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/817ALFzo3XL._SL1500_.jpg)
It's good to have a recording of Krenek's completion of Schubert's Reliquie sonata. The cover also says this is "Volume 1" (but I have other Toccata CDs where "volume 2" has not appeared yet, even if "volume 1" was released several years ago :( )....
Quote from: Rons_talking on June 09, 2015, 11:53:33 PM
I've just discovered Krenek's Symphonic Elegy and Works for String Orchestra conducted by Kovacic on Capreccio Records. A great performance of some of the composer's finest music. His different periods are represented well. I used to assume his work would be academic sounding, seing what a pedagogue he was, but these works are highly lyrical and fuse the Romantic and modern periods in an accessable way. I remember trying to play his 12-tone children's pieces long ago. His music is a bit on the dark side but it's clear that he has a master's handle on the atonal pieces (they don't strike me as atonal but they are) and that he was a great influence on composers in Europe and the USA alike.
Yes: not just because he was connected to
Mahler's family, his early style at least seems to follow a path
Mahler might have taken
Don't forget the symphonies!
Quote from: Cato on June 11, 2015, 07:51:05 AM
Yes: not just because he was connected to Mahler's family, his early style at least seems to follow a path Mahler might have taken
Don't forget the symphonies!
I am sampling, and liking, them. I have sampled Krenek off and on for decades. I met the man, the only tolerably famous composer I have met (I also met Istvan Anhalt; see what I mean). I can't say anything has really appealed a lot, until now with the symphonies.
Yes; Krenek is a very good composer. The cpo box is fantastic as are the string quartets (but there is no satisfying complete set, so collecting them will be expensive).
[asin]B007HOEZZI[/asin]
And all the recommendations for the Lamentations are strongly echoed.
:)
Quote from: sanantonio on June 12, 2015, 11:24:08 AM
Yes; Krenek is a very good composer. The cpo box is fantastic as are the string quartets (but there is no satisfying complete set, so collecting them will be expensive).
[asin]B007HOEZZI[/asin]
And all the recommendations for the Lamentations are strongly echoed.
:)
I will need to look into that set!
Here is a fascinating interview with
Krenek from nearly 30 years ago. He was 86 at the time and living in Palm Springs, California.
An excerpt:
Quote
BD: Is the public always right in its taste, dictating who will be played and who will not be played?
EK: No, I am convinced the public is not at all right.
BD: How can we get the public to play more contemporary music, or to appreciate more contemporary music?
EK: That's a pickle. I think contemporary music is just not played much and is not played well enough when it is done. I can tell that because always, when there is a concert with a new work and two or three old works, the old ones are much better rehearsed. That's usually the prerogative of the conductor, and the new pieces just come at the end when there's little time left. The conductor seems to just go through it, as if it will take care of itself. It's interesting to look at programs of early the nineteenth century. Those concerts were much longer than we are used to now. There were many more pieces on one program, and almost all of them were contemporary. Today we have developed a classical repertoire.
See:
http://www.bruceduffie.com/krenek2.html (http://www.bruceduffie.com/krenek2.html)
And the classics, of course, benefit from a performance history. Even where I have had a piece done gratifyingly well for an initial performance, later performances by the same group are always musical gains.
QuoteBD: Is the public always right in its taste, dictating who will be played and who will not be played?
EKJames: No, I am convinced the public is not at all right.
Discuss.
Does the public dictate that way? I mean, I play my own music in public; the public doesn't dictate about that, one way or any other.
QuoteBD: Is the public always right in its taste, dictating who will be played and who will not be played?
EK: No, I am convinced the public is not at all right.
Quote from: karlhenning on June 26, 2015, 09:00:56 AM
Does the public dictate that way? I mean, I play my own music in public; the public doesn't dictate about that, one way or any other.
I did have to wonder about that: I suspect
Krenek meant that a music director who pushed contemporary music at the expense of proven favorites, i.e. two or three works from the last 2 or 3 decades vs. 2 or 3 works from before 1910, would be feeling the "dictatorship of the audience" and it would not be a good feeling. :laugh:
I still recall
Andrew Massey, former conductor of the Toledo Symphony, very nervously conducting the
Five Pieces for Orchestra by
Arnold Schoenberg and delivering a long and unnecessary
apologia for the work before the orchestra played it.
Krenek is right about concerts being longer and more open to contemporary music in the 19th century. As we know, the musical tumults of the last century left audiences skeptical about the creations of their contemporary composers.
Quote from: Cato on June 27, 2015, 10:21:42 AM
I did have to wonder about that: I suspect Krenek meant that a music director who pushed contemporary music at the expense of proven favorites, i.e. two or three works from the last 2 or 3 decades vs. 2 or 3 works from before 1910, would be feeling the "dictatorship of the audience" and it would not be a good feeling. :laugh:
I still recall Andrew Massey, former conductor of the Toledo Symphony, very nervously conducting the Five Pieces for Orchestra by Arnold Schoenberg and delivering a long and unnecessary apologia for the work before the orchestra played it.
Krenek is right about concerts being longer and more open to contemporary music in the 19th century. As we know, the musical tumults of the last century left audiences skeptical about the creations of their contemporary composers.
Concerts were quite open to modern music as late as the 50s. Look at the Living Stereo or Living Presence repertoire. But then the institutional avant garde, the bullies like Boulez, the snoots like Babbitt, rose to influence. By the 80s modern music was usually an assault. This was achieved partly via subsidies from government or foundations.
Quote from: Ken B on June 27, 2015, 11:34:40 AM
Concerts were quite open to modern music as late as the 50s. Look at the Living Stereo or Living Presence repertoire. But then the institutional avant garde, the bullies like Boulez, the snoots like Babbitt, rose to influence. By the 80s modern music was usually an assault. This was achieved partly via subsidies from government or foundations.
Leopold Stokowski was rather fearless in his promotion of new music, even programming a quarter-tone Piano Concerto by the now nearly forgotten
Hans Barth for the Philadelphia Orchestra.
Of course, I am not sure any conductor has the world-wide fame and "clout" of
Stokowski today, so that skeptical or even hostile audiences could be persuaded to give a non-traditional work a chance. (
Bernstein and
von Karajan came close to having
Stokowski's influence.)
* bump *
Cross-posted from the "New Releases" thread:
Quote from: ritter on September 27, 2016, 08:48:21 AM
A major addition to the discography of Ernst Krenek, this opera on a libretto by Oskar Kokoschka:
(https://media3.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4011790923222.jpg)
Announced by jpc for mid-October.
This is early, pre-
Jonny spielt auf Krenek. Only some years later (around 1930) did he embrace 12-tone techniques. The libretto by
Kokschka (a rather fascniating character--also for Mahlerians ;)) can be interesting.
The opera was given in concert form at Madrid's Teatro Real some years ago (conducted by
Pedro Halffter), but sadly I could not attend those performances.
Today I began listening to his string quartets (1 & 2 for now). Dissonantly rewarding I thought. Not as challenging as the Carter ones, but they are so meaty, there is much to enjoy and several listens will be necessary to extract their juice.
Quote from: snyprrr on May 14, 2013, 06:20:34 AM
btw- no one has commented on that fact that Krenek's FACE is arid!!!!!!!Yoww!!!! His face looks like Sibelius's 4th!!
I know this user is not here anymore, but this comment made me laugh! :laugh:
Krenek: Concerto Grosso No. 2 op.25
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBoGQ_AbA9o
I was recently introduced to the music of Ernst Krenek by a fellow member here. This is my first foray into this composer's music.
I like the musical language of this Krenek work. It is interesting, engaging and challenging for me, which is always a good mix. I also like the scoring and the orchestral textures of the work.
I like the staccato nature of the opening movement, Allegro molto moderato e pesante. The second movement, Adagio, has a wonderful, magical, dream-like or other worldly feel to it. The third movement, Allegro comodo, reverts to the sparse musical language and tone of the opening movement which I find engaging. The fourth movement, Andante, quasi adagio, has the appeal and textures of an enhanced and wonderful string quartet movement. It is really a very engaging piece of musical writing. The final movement, Allegro, is a spirited piece of writing. The middle section of the movement is well contrasted with the outer sections. I liked this work.
I will definitely explore more of Krenek's work.
I listened to Krenek's Symphony No.1 (very first listen to this composer's music too) and I appreciated it very much, it's an intriguing, captivating work; it seems to reminds a little of Schönberg's non-tonal phase for the strong harmonic contrasts and the tense, somber atmosphere, though neither powerfully overwhelming nor frightfully dissonant as Schönberg; more retained, but quite angular and restless anyway. It has a solid, cohesive structure, with all the melodic lines brilliantly transposed and developed which flows without solution of continuity, as a single-block form, despite the irregular rhythms, fragmented at some points, and changes of dynamics; there's a fine timbric variety and a very nice use of the ostinato, especially in a passage of the sixth seciton with a thrilling whirlwind of strings, which leads the way to an intense climax suddenly broken in a roll of drums, very striking. I'll continue to explore Krenek and go on with the rest of the symphonies, I've been said he used a very various style through the decades, so it will be interesting to listen to the differences.