Webern's Vibe

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Of course, they're late opus-numbers, and comparatively large-scale;  apart from these obvious pointers, the Cantatas are signal high points in Webern's oeuvre . . . these more than any of his music make one weep that his life was cut off.

Yes, those Cantatas truly are great works!

[Dancing Divertimentian]

You bet. I bought that expensive set and have every right to offer my opinion of it.

Of course, "everybody's entitled to an opinion". But when that opinion is grossly miscalculated the only responsible thing to do is right the wrong.

As I'm attempting to do.

[Guido]

Yes, those Cantatas truly are great works!

I seem to remember reading that these cantatas may have some antisemitic connotations in the text... Am I remembering correctly?

[lukeottevanger]

Guido, I'm sure James is right, and you've wasted your money on that DG set (was it from the market stall I'm thinking of?). The best thing you can do, I'm afraid, is to slip it into an envelope and post it to me. I'll bear the burden for you...  0:)

[karlhenning]

(Cor, ain't he the smooth one?)

Oh! and Luke, if your in-box can bear it, there will be more image-files . . . .

[greg]

Plus no unnecessary juvenilia to wade through...

I don't see how this is a bad thing at all. You get the complete Webern- no worrying about which works you don't have with this set. They might not be that great, but it's nice to see his development as a composer through the early years, and where he came from.

[karlhenning]

Well, James is welcome to feel that the "juvenilia" is "unnecessary."  I find the pre-opus-number pieces well done, and of interest.

Webern was 20 when he composed Im Sommerwind, so I don't think the term juvenilia applies to it, in the least.

[greg]

The only thing I really can't stand on this set are the songs. I've tried, many times, but they always come across to me as annoying. Same thing with the Piano Variations.
The best stuff for me tends to be the orchestral stuff, since I like Webern with lots of colors. The Cantatas are awesome, too, especially the last movement of the 2nd Cantata, which repeats itself 3 times (one exposition, 2 repeats), i think- at least, that's how it sounds. It's more spooky than abstract- and according to his opus list, this was the last thing he wrote...... i wonder what he'd sound like if he wrote 30 more years?

[lukeottevanger]

.... i wonder what he'd sound like if he wrote 30 more years?

Yeah, another minute or so of Webern would be great, wouldn't it?

[greg]

Yeah, another minute or so of Webern would be great, wouldn't it?

It wouldn't be much worse than Sibelius....

[karlhenning]

Yeah, another minute or so of Webern would be great, wouldn't it?

[karlhenning]

Hey, I like the Opus 27, Greg!

(Sorry, I mean GGGGRRREEG . . . .)

[greg]

Hey, I like the Opus 27, Greg!

(Sorry, I mean GGGGRRREEG . . . .)

i do like the first movement.......

and i do like how the score looks for the next two.... 

[Josquin des Prez]

Zimmerman's reading of op.27 isn't that good...try Pollini.

No.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I seem to remember reading that these cantatas may have some antisemitic connotations in the text... Am I remembering correctly?

Guido,

Speaking for myself, I've never heard of anyone having issues with the texts of the Cantatas. But then again I haven't really investigated the idea so there could be info out there I'm not aware of.

Reading over the texts earlier today I can't say as anything really jumps out at me that would point to antisemitism. Unless I'm overlooking some subtle reference that's completely over my head.

It's hard of course not to notice all the other references in these texts, Christian orthodoxy, paganism, demonic ("cloud of hostility"), but beyond that from where I sit it all seems pretty harmless.

How do you feel about it? Is there something that's tugging at you?

[Symphonien]

Zimmerman's reading of op.27 isn't that good...try Pollini.

I don't know how Zimerman's reading compares as his version is the only one I've heard, but the thing that really bothers me here is how he somehow manages to hum along to this piece! Humming to Webern, of all composers... Nothing particularly discernable, but the noises he makes are just audible enough to distract me! Anyway, this particular piece hasn't really grown on me yet.

I do enjoy most of that DG set however, especially the orchestral works and string quartets. The string orchestra version of Op. 5 has always been a particular favourite of mine.

[Guido]

Guido,

Speaking for myself, I've never heard of anyone having issues with the texts of the Cantatas. But then again I haven't really investigated the idea so there could be info out there I'm not aware of.

Reading over the texts earlier today I can't say as anything really jumps out at me that would point to antisemitism. Unless I'm overlooking some subtle reference that's completely over my head.

It's hard of course not to notice all the other references in these texts, Christian orthodoxy, paganism, demonic ("cloud of hostility"), but beyond that from where I sit it all seems pretty harmless.

How do you feel about it? Is there something that's tugging at you?

No it was a bit of trivia that I thought I had picked up, but I'm obviously mistaken.

[Sergeant Rock]

yeah...it includes a lot of juvenilia and the DG set is poorly recorded, i was shocked because usually with Boulez things are up close & clear but not with that set, the music sounds like the orchestra is playing it at the bottom of the Grand Canyon with the listener at the top. the Sony set is superior because it's less ambient and more up close and clear, like being sat amoungst the musicians.

There are performances I enjoy from that perspective (Bernstein's Nielsen 3, for example...the original LP not the remastered CD butchers job) and I've always liked my Columbia box set of LPs (I'll probably buy the CDs too eventually). But if I had to choose, without a doubt I'd take the DG set. I prefer the warmer acoustic and, contrary to your assertion, there is no lack of clarity. Your dismissive description is hyperbolic and actually pretty funny to the many folks here who own this set and can hear it with our own ears (I'm listening to disc 2 at the moment). That you prefer the sound on Sony I have no argument wth...but Guido made no mistake.

You know, James, for someone who claims to love Webern, it's a little disconcerting to hear you dismiss so much of his music as "juvenilia."

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

All Im saying is that there is better out there, DG is often guilty of distance/reverb issues with their recordings...and I especially don't like listening to Webern like that, it's far too ambient and inappropriate.

I've heard Weben often in the concert hall, and ambience is what you get. Not inappropriate at all. Listeners are seldom allowed on stage to sit among the instrumentalists

But, I better understand your point now--and I have no problem with the way you state it now: no claim of inferior recording or mistake made by another forum member. Just an explanation of why you prefer Sony.

Sarge

[karlhenning]

But, I better understand your point now--and I have no problem with the way you state it now: no claim of inferior recording or mistake made by another forum member. Just an explanation of why you prefer Sony.

Why, now you speak
Like a good child and a true gentleman.
That I am guiltless of th'ambient noise,
And am most sensible in grief for it,
It shall as level to your judgment pierce
As day does to your eye