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The Back Room => The Diner => Topic started by: Brewski on November 10, 2020, 02:09:34 PM

Title: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Brewski on November 10, 2020, 02:09:34 PM
Dear forum members,

The moderators have decided to close the old thread and provide a fresh start with a new SINGLE thread on USA Politics. This thread will cover all discussions on political developments, movements, and personalities in the United States of America. Guidelines below are similar to the ones before.

GENERAL COMMENTS:

This forum is first and foremost a classical music forum and community. The Diner offers an opportunity for members to talk also about other topics than classical music, including politics. But what binds us and which is the purpose of this forum, is an interest in classical music.

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3. Trolling will not be tolerated, and this restriction in particular will be more rigorously enforced than before. From the general forum guidelines: A forum troll is someone who intentionally posts derogatory or inflammatory messages [...] with the deliberate intent to bait users into responding. This can range from very subtle jibes to outright personal attacks. [...] do not try to deliberately provoke another member into an ill-natured argument.
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Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 10, 2020, 03:51:16 PM
The scary data point this morning is that 70% of Republicans have swallowed Trump's completely unsubstantiated agitprop that he cannot have lost this fair and free election.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Brewski on November 10, 2020, 04:00:10 PM
The scary data point this morning is that 70% of Republicans have swallowed Trump's completely unsubstantiated agitprop that he cannot have lost this fair and free election.

Yes. Though I don't officially "follow" him on Twitter (most of his 88.9M followers are bots, anyway), I encourage anyone who hasn't seen his Twitter feed to take a look, especially since he has insisted on governing by Twitter, which is absurd. I think any public figure, including him, should be on Twitter. But not to discuss policy, or wail like a 5-year-old (no offense to 5-year-olds), or create fake drama where there is no need. And now, it's just getting embarrassing.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump

Meanwhile, I've ordered one of these t-shirts. This story is going to be comedic gold for years.

https://shopclass.threadless.com/designs/four-seasons-total-landscaping/?fbclid=IwAR101yPaOr2q9sDnxL6plqyRiKffMrPu6ziwZI2ZKhkC-QbdqUXvvfC6AWM#

--Bruce
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: SimonNZ on November 10, 2020, 04:29:25 PM
Bruce: how do you personally rate Trump's chances of ratfucking his way into a second term?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Brewski on November 10, 2020, 04:34:20 PM
Bruce: how do you personally rate Trump's chances of ratfucking his way into a second term?

I don't consider myself the best gauge, but so far, all of his legal efforts have been dismissed. That said, I'm concerned by today's departure of some top Department of Defense officials:

https://twitter.com/renato_mariotti/status/1326263924027748352?s=20

--Bruce
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 10, 2020, 04:35:43 PM
Trump's chances of ratfucking his way into a second term?

Zero.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on November 10, 2020, 04:43:58 PM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-10/barr-s-gambit-opens-path-to-tarring-biden-win-without-undoing-it

Seems like there's potential for things to get messy.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 10, 2020, 04:46:56 PM
Yes. Though I don't officially "follow" him on Twitter (most of his 88.9M followers are bots, anyway), I encourage anyone who hasn't seen his Twitter feed to take a look, especially since he has insisted on governing by Twitter, which is absurd. I think any public figure, including him, should be on Twitter. But not to discuss policy, or wail like a 5-year-old (no offense to 5-year-olds), or create fake drama where there is no need. And now, it's just getting embarrassing.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump

Meanwhile, I've ordered one of these t-shirts. This story is going to be comedic gold for years.

https://shopclass.threadless.com/designs/four-seasons-total-landscaping/?fbclid=IwAR101yPaOr2q9sDnxL6plqyRiKffMrPu6ziwZI2ZKhkC-QbdqUXvvfC6AWM#

--Bruce

Come get your legal advice and your lawn & garden supplies between the crematorium and the adult appliance boutique.  Come for the mulch, stay for the French ticklers!
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Brewski on November 10, 2020, 04:54:22 PM
Come get your legal advice and your lawn & garden supplies between the crematorium and the adult appliance boutique.  Come for the mulch, stay for the French ticklers!

It's going to provide comedians, writers, and filmmakers with comedy for years. Exhibit A: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAyh2xPrFvo&fbclid

--Bruce
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 10, 2020, 04:56:42 PM
Zero.

Not zero. you're forgetting the disgrace of the GOP Senators roundly acquitting him.  They're still busily enabling his destructive tantrum.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: (: premont :) on November 10, 2020, 05:11:53 PM
Opinion polls are what they are. All the same I had expected Biden to win the election with a somewhat larger margin. But Trump got rather many votes. Are we sure, that some of the orange swindlers votes weren't the result of fraud?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 10, 2020, 05:23:27 PM
Opinion polls are what they are. All the same I had expected Biden to win the election with a somewhat larger margin. But Trump got rather many votes. Are we sure, that some of the orange swindlers votes weren't the result of fraud?

Despite the tendentious amplification by the right-wing disinformation ecosystem, voter fraud is extremely rare.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Zeus on November 10, 2020, 05:37:23 PM
It's going to provide comedians, writers, and filmmakers with comedy for years. Exhibit A: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAyh2xPrFvo&fbclid

--Bruce

Exhibit B:
https://twitter.com/nanglish/status/1325242917519233024

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Zeus on November 10, 2020, 05:41:08 PM
2. All discussions are to be conducted in a civil manner. From the general forum guidelines: Please treat other members [...] with courtesy and respect. [...] do not make personal attacks, belittle, make fun of, or insult another member.

I propose a simple check to determine if your post meets this criteria: would you say this, and in this way, at dinner with your boss?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Brewski on November 10, 2020, 06:13:41 PM
Exhibit B:
https://twitter.com/nanglish/status/1325242917519233024

Yes, very good -- I retweeted that myself.  ;D

I propose a simple check to determine if your post meets this criteria: would you say this, and in this way, at dinner with your boss?

Good barometer. Or as one friend said, "Don't post anything you wouldn't want to see on the front page of The New York Times."

--Bruce
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 10, 2020, 06:19:03 PM
I propose a simple check to determine if your post meets this criteria: would you say this, and in this way, at dinner with your boss?

Good, plain sense.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: SimonNZ on November 10, 2020, 06:48:25 PM
Except we're often in a power relationship with our bosses that means we can't speak our minds no matter how politely.

Re the bad polling: I heard someone criticizing them point out that while one can talk of the "shy" Trump voter skewing the figures they were also well out in some uncontroversial downticket races where shyness could barely have been a factor.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 10, 2020, 07:10:10 PM
Joe pulled it off.  No surprise.  The surprising thing is just how poorly Dems did overall.  They were boosted by a pandemic and a depression, and yet they lost seats in the House, and Republicans look set to hold a Senate majority.  So much for packing the court, impeaching Trump's SCOTUS picks, a green new deal, etc.  From a long term perspective, Trump's gains with minorities point a way forward from Republicans later in the decade and in the 2030s.  Dems have to come up with a better game plan. 

And then there's the 2020 census and how it will shape the mid-terms.

But before that, I gotta see cabinet picks.  The big three plus the head of the NSC matter, while all else is fluff.  As long as Samantha Power doesn't get a seat at the table, it will be acceptable.  I'm thinking we could see a female DOD chief (Flournoy) and Treasury chief (Brainard).  Safe enough picks. 
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 10, 2020, 08:05:12 PM
Trump advisers privately express pessimism about heading off Biden’s win = None of them has the backbone to tell the man-baby the truth.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 10, 2020, 08:25:39 PM
I honestly don’t see Trump conceding and he’ll probably end up being evicted from the White House. He’ll never admit defeat even though by large he simply doesn’t have the electoral college votes. He can contest Michigan, Arizona, Nevada, Georgia, Pennsylvania all he wants, there hasn’t been any hard evidence that voter fraud has occurred and even if this ends up at the Supreme Court, they’ll throw it out, because it’s not just one or two states he’s contesting, but many of them. Many believe this to be another 2000 election, but it’s not. It’s quite evident that Trump lost. Some news commentator mentioned that the mail-in ballot is a Republican’s worst enemy, I would say no, a Republican’s worst enemy is supporting this cretin we currently have in office. I can guarantee you that if the shoe was on the foot and Biden lost, this wouldn’t be happening, because we have to remember that Biden isn’t a stable genius like Trump.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 11, 2020, 01:10:29 AM
Bruce: how do you personally rate Trump's chances of ratfucking his way into a second term?

Primarily this is about the next elections, the midterms and 2024.

The "stolen 2020 elections" was intended as the successor to the Barack HUSSEIN Obama, Birther meme. Just a little thing to delegitimize the four years Biden - Harris will have.

However, I get the feeling McConnell are watching if this stuff is getting some traction, just as the previously unthinkinkable Trump 2024 notion, and so they are just going to see where this is getting them.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 11, 2020, 01:14:42 AM
It's rather painful to see Biden going through the "bipartisan" moves, even while McConnell c.s. are sawing off his legs at the knees, by calling the elections illegit.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 11, 2020, 01:40:33 AM
Joe pulled it off.  No surprise.  The surprising thing is just how poorly Dems did overall.  They were boosted by a pandemic and a depression, and yet they lost seats in the House, and Republicans look set to hold a Senate majority.  So much for packing the court, impeaching Trump's SCOTUS picks, a green new deal, etc.  From a long term perspective, Trump's gains with minorities point a way forward from Republicans later in the decade and in the 2030s.  Dems have to come up with a better game plan.

Yes, the Dems did poorly althou progressives did well. Every Dem advocating Medicare for all got re-elected. Overall Dems need better game plan and it's very simple: Serve your base like the Republicans do. 80-90 % of the Democrat's base want Medicare for all, so advocating medicare for all should be a no-brainer, except the insurance companies and Big Pharma have bought corporate Dems so their hands are tied...  :-\  Left wing policies (drug / minimum wage policies)  won in referendums in this election even in states where Biden lost to Trump.

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 11, 2020, 01:53:50 AM
I honestly don’t see Trump conceding and he’ll probably end up being evicted from the White House. He’ll never admit defeat even though by large he simply doesn’t have the electoral college votes. He can contest Michigan, Arizona, Nevada, Georgia, Pennsylvania all he wants, there hasn’t been any hard evidence that voter fraud has occurred and even if this ends up at the Supreme Court, they’ll throw it out, because it’s not just one or two states he’s contesting, but many of them. Many believe this to be another 2000 election, but it’s not. It’s quite evident that Trump lost. Some news commentator mentioned that the mail-in ballot is a Republican’s worst enemy, I would say no, a Republican’s worst enemy is supporting this cretin we currently have in office. I can guarantee you that if the shoe was on the foot and Biden lost, this wouldn’t be happening, because we have to remember that Biden isn’t a stable genius like Trump.

At best Trump can have like 95 Biden votes nullified in a state where Biden won by thousands of votes. Even re-counts can chance the votes more and it doesn't change the outcome of this election. This election fraud circus is to give Trump a "heroic" way out in the eyes of his supporters.

Biden suffers from mental decline due to age, but despite of this he is fresh wind of sanity after four years of Trump.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 11, 2020, 02:00:43 AM
Yes, the Dems did poorly althou progressives did well. Every Dem advocating Medicare for all got re-elected. Overall Dems need better game plan and it's very simple: Serve your base like the Republicans do.

In reality the Republicans do not do this at all.

They serve the one percent, and deliver (under Trump) carnival hi-jinks for the base.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 11, 2020, 02:12:46 AM
In reality the Republicans do not do this at all.

They serve the one percent, and deliver (under Trump) carnival hi-jinks for the base.

Both The Republicans and the Dems serve the one percent, but at least the Republicans know how to make their ignorant base believe they are being served. The Democratic base is smarter, better educated and can see they are poorly served. It seems like the corporate Dems are not that interested of political power. They are good as long as donor money keeps coming...
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Jo498 on November 11, 2020, 02:21:56 AM
I am a bit surprised that the press/public mostly sees it as a done deal despite the legal fights to come. Is the main difference to 2000 Bush vs. Gore that too many states would have to be revised/recounted or that the supposed indications of irregularities are generally too weak to get recounts or the like even going?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 11, 2020, 02:37:38 AM
I am a bit surprised that the press/public mostly sees it as a done deal despite the legal fights to come. Is the main difference to 2000 Bush vs. Gore that too many states would have to be revised/recounted or that the supposed indications of irregularities are generally too weak to get recounts or the like even going?

That, and the margins are much bigger. In Florida 2000 I believe Bush won by 500 votes.

In 2020 Biden's margins in PA, Nevada and Georgia are in the 10.000s.

You have to understand the GOP / Trump mindset, in which Democratic voters aren't really legit Americans, because they don't bow to Trump. That makes their votes potentially illegal.

Remember Trump refused to give California disaster relief in the fire season, because CA is solidly D in elections. So they're not Americans.

It's circular reasoning, obviously, but its the best these people can do.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: BWV 1080 on November 11, 2020, 03:56:04 AM
What are the odds?


One in five COVID-19 patients develop mental illness within 90 days - study
By Kate Kelland
3 MIN READ

LONDON (Reuters) - Many COVID-19 survivors are likely to be at greater risk of developing mental illness, psychiatrists said on Monday, after a large study found 20% of those infected with the coronavirus are diagnosed with a psychiatric disorder within 90 days.

Anxiety, depression and insomnia were most common among recovered COVID-19 patients in the study who developed mental health problems. The researchers from Britain’s Oxford University also found significantly higher risks of dementia, a brain impairment condition.

https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-mental-illness-int-idUSKBN27P35N

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 11, 2020, 04:12:45 AM
Trump refused to give California disaster relief in the fire season

Fact check: the statement above is partially true but it's not the whole story.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/16/us/trump-california-wildfire-relief.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/16/us/trump-california-wildfire-relief.html)

Quote from: The New York Times

Trump Reverses Decision to Reject California’s Request for Wildfire Relief

MORAGA, Calif. — President Trump reversed himself on Friday, approving a package of wildfire disaster relief for California hours after officials from his administration had explained why the state should not receive the aid.

The abrupt turnaround came after the president spoke with Gov. Gavin Newsom, a Democrat, and Representative Kevin McCarthy, a Republican and the House minority leader, with the White House saying the men “presented a convincing case” for the state receiving the aid.

The disaster relief aid covers six major wildfires that scorched more than 1.8 million acres, destroyed thousands of structures and caused at least three deaths last month.

“Just got off the phone with President Trump who has approved our Major Disaster Declaration request,” Mr. Newsom of California said in a statement. “Grateful for his quick response.”

The relief package adds to the 68 fire-related aid packages for California that Mr. Trump has approved during his tenure: 61 for firefighting, five for disaster relief and two for support of emergency services.

California has suffered a series of huge fires since August, when freak lightning storms ignited hundreds of blazes, some of which grew to be the largest in modern state history. Subsequent fires in September tore through parts of the Sierra Nevada and wine country north of San Francisco.

The initial rejection was unusual but not unprecedented: A 2017 report by the Congressional Research Service found that from 1974 to 2016 presidents denied requests for disaster relief an average of 2.9 times per year during nonelection years, and 2.1 times in a year with a presidential election.

Since the enactment in 1953 of a federal disaster relief act, presidents have been authorized to issue declarations that provide states with federal assistance in response to natural and man-made incidents. The requests are judged based on criteria that take into account damage to infrastructure, existing insurance coverage and a state’s population, among others.

But the president ultimately has the authority to approve or reject a disaster aid request regardless whether the criteria are met.

Mr. Newsom said on Friday morning that he would appeal the denial — and had apparent success in persuading the president during their afternoon phone call.
...

Miles Taylor, a former senior Trump administration official who has endorsed Joseph R. Biden Jr.’s presidential campaign, said in August that Mr. Trump’s reluctance to aid California was overtly political.

“He told us to stop giving money to people whose houses had burned down from a wildfire because he was so rageful that people in the state of California didn’t support him and that politically it wasn’t a base for him,” Mr. Taylor says in a campaign video.


However, many of the largest fires in California over the past four years have ravaged areas that tend to vote Republican.

All emphases are mine.





Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Brewski on November 11, 2020, 04:47:45 AM
And I see that some here need a reminder already (my emphasis):

"3. Trolling will not be tolerated, and this restriction in particular will be more rigorously enforced than before. From the general forum guidelines: A forum troll is someone who intentionally posts derogatory or inflammatory messages [...] with the deliberate intent to bait users into responding. This can range from very subtle jibes to outright personal attacks. [...] do not try to deliberately provoke another member into an ill-natured argument."

You know, listening to some Mozart puts me in a good mood. I recommend it.

-Bruce
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 11, 2020, 04:54:41 AM
Trump family voted by mail.

Fact check: partially true.

Trump himself and various members of his family and administration voted by mail at various points in time. However, for the 2020 Presidential elections Donald Trump and Melania Trump voted in person. Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner voted by mail.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/oct/25/facebook-posts/no-trump-did-not-vote-twice-nov-3-election/ (https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/oct/25/facebook-posts/no-trump-did-not-vote-twice-nov-3-election/):

 https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/03/us/politics/melania-trump-vote-mask.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/03/us/politics/melania-trump-vote-mask.html)

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/ivanka-trump-mocked-over-desperate-us-election-day-message/FZ6KKAM2JQLFK467SNRVSJHOJQ/ (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/ivanka-trump-mocked-over-desperate-us-election-day-message/FZ6KKAM2JQLFK467SNRVSJHOJQ/):

Quote
A lot of people voted by mail because there is a pandemic.

A few months ago some people here, including you, expressed great concern that the USPS headed by Trump's minion Louis DeJoy will deliberately mismanage, mishandle and delay mail ballots. Do you still believe that to have been the case?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 11, 2020, 05:25:42 AM
I honestly don’t see Trump conceding and he’ll probably end up being evicted from the White House. He’ll never admit defeat even though by large he simply doesn’t have the electoral college votes. He can contest Michigan, Arizona, Nevada, Georgia, Pennsylvania all he wants, there hasn’t been any hard evidence that voter fraud has occurred and even if this ends up at the Supreme Court, they’ll throw it out, because it’s not just one or two states he’s contesting, but many of them. Many believe this to be another 2000 election, but it’s not. It’s quite evident that Trump lost. Some news commentator mentioned that the mail-in ballot is a Republican’s worst enemy, I would say no, a Republican’s worst enemy is supporting this cretin we currently have in office. I can guarantee you that if the shoe was on the foot and Biden lost, this wouldn’t be happening, because we have to remember that Biden isn’t a stable genius like Trump.

It's a matter of time, and of how much distrust and hate Trump and his spineless enablers gin up in Trumpworld.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 11, 2020, 05:36:23 AM
From newspaper op-eds to network TV interviews, Ben Ginsberg, recently retired from his work for the law firm that has represented President Trump’s campaigns, has denounced the baseless claims by Trump and his GOP allies that last week’s election was rigged and rife with fraud.

“For the president of the United States, the leader of the free world and head of the Republican Party, to make completely unsubstantiated charges about our elections being rigged is not right,” he said in an interview.

Whereas Ginsberg said the 2000 recount was a legitimate legal issue — a recount in a single state with the two candidates separated by just 537 votes — he said the Trump campaign has no legal basis to dispute the victory by President-elect Joe Biden.

RTWT here (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/why-gop-superlawyer-ben-ginsberg-is-bucking-his-party-and-blasting-trumps-baseless-election-claims/2020/11/10/f2aa7056-236d-11eb-8599-406466ad1b8e_story.html).
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 11, 2020, 05:51:55 AM
I am a bit surprised that the press/public mostly sees it as a done deal despite the legal fights to come. Is the main difference to 2000 Bush vs. Gore that too many states would have to be revised/recounted or that the supposed indications of irregularities are generally too weak to get recounts or the like even going?


The Electoral College meets on December 14th.  The victor will be selected then.  The lawsuits will not change the constitutionally mandated process, and recounts almost never result in the desired outcomes of those demanding recounts, and certainly would not here.  That applied in 2000, as well.  It's over.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 11, 2020, 05:54:25 AM
Christian Schneider:

According to Joseph Stalin biographer Simon Sebag Montefiore, Stalin grew so powerful that when he gave a speech and mispronounced a word, every speaker would mispronounce the word in the same way.

“If I’d said it right, Stalin would have felt I was correcting him,” remembered Stalin protégé Vyacheslav Molotov, noting the Soviet leader was “very touchy and proud.”

Donald Trump is obviously not Stalin: he doesn’t conduct show trials, send his political opponents to gulags, or starve millions of his own people to death.

In a way, though, that makes the embarrassing post-2020 election obeisance of Republican politicians even more confounding. If they rightly acknowledge Trump’s election loss was not due to vote “fraud” and concede Joe Biden will, in fact, be president on January 20 next year, the worst they will suffer is an angry tweet from the president.

And yet they trot right out, single file, humiliating themselves in order to soothe the “very touchy and proud” adolescent in the Oval Office. Newt Gingrich, a man who knows how elections work, said Trump fell to a “corrupt and stolen election.” On the Senate floor, Majority Leader Mitch McConnell said Trump is “100 percent within his right” to pursue recounts and litigation.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Handelian on November 11, 2020, 06:00:29 AM
It amuses me as a disinterested third party from another country, the self-righteous condemnation of Trump for contesting the election and accusing him of stirring up hate. I seem to remember that four years ago there were incredible protests by the other side concerning Trump’s victory with unsubstantiated claims and also people demonstrating for weeks saying how much they hated Trump. A guy I read was even attacked by one of the mob of Trump haters for questioning their motives!  :D
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: BWV 1080 on November 11, 2020, 06:04:56 AM
Christian Schneider:

According to Joseph Stalin biographer Simon Sebag Montefiore, Stalin grew so powerful that when he gave a speech and mispronounced a word, every speaker would mispronounce the word in the same way.

“If I’d said it right, Stalin would have felt I was correcting him,” remembered Stalin protégé Vyacheslav Molotov, noting the Soviet leader was “very touchy and proud.”

Donald Trump is obviously not Stalin: he doesn’t conduct show trials, send his political opponents to gulags, or starve millions of his own people to death.

In a way, though, that makes the embarrassing post-2020 election obeisance of Republican politicians even more confounding. If they rightly acknowledge Trump’s election loss was not due to vote “fraud” and concede Joe Biden will, in fact, be president on January 20 next year, the worst they will suffer is an angry tweet from the president.

And yet they trot right out, single file, humiliating themselves in order to soothe the “very touchy and proud” adolescent in the Oval Office. Newt Gingrich, a man who knows how elections work, said Trump fell to a “corrupt and stolen election.” On the Senate floor, Majority Leader Mitch McConnell said Trump is “100 percent within his right” to pursue recounts and litigation.

Not confounding at all, they don't want to alienate Trump supporters who have the power to replace them in the next primary.  They all know the fraud allegations are baseless and Biden will be president.  There is also some quid pro quo for the Dems attempts to delegitimize Trump's 2016 victory.  This is why you hear language like ' he has every right to look into allegations' 
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: BasilValentine on November 11, 2020, 06:08:51 AM
It's rather painful to see Biden going through the "bipartisan" moves, even while McConnell c.s. are sawing off his legs at the knees, by calling the elections illegit.

No, Biden is doing exactly the right thing. You can relax. The dispute of the election is just a fund raising scam. The RNC is strapped for cash and Trump supporters are sheep lining up to be fleeced. Close to 0% of the money raised by the supposed legal fund to contest election results will be used for that purpose. (That is, 0% of any donation under $5,000) The money goes to super PACs and the RNC. Mitch knows this and Joe knows this. 
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 11, 2020, 06:09:56 AM
Saw this story (on CNN) this morning about how some of the GOP are trying to discredit votes in Nevada claiming that people who had a change of address to a different state were not allowed to vote in Nevada.  The problem is:  the votes are from people in the military and/or their spouses who are still legally residents of Nevada (per state and federal law)!  Or they could also be college kids!

https://www.wral.com/military-spouses-say-gop-labeled-their-votes-fraudulent/19380286/

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 11, 2020, 06:16:15 AM
There is also some quid pro quo for the Dems attempts to delegitimize Trump's 2016 victory.


There is always political value in this, which is why Dems did it in both 2016 and 2000.  It has roots older than that because of its factional utility.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 11, 2020, 07:22:00 AM

A few months ago some people here, including you, expressed great concern that the USPS headed by Trump's minion Louis DeJoy will deliberately mismanage, mishandle and delay mail ballots. Do you still believe that to have been the case?

      Do you think this is a matter of belief? You just fact checked a claim about California disaster relief. Beliefs and concerns don't justify themselves, do they?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 11, 2020, 07:34:21 AM
      Do you think this is a matter of belief? You just fact checked a claim about California disaster relief. Beliefs and concerns don't justify themselves, do they?

So you really claim that the USPS did deliberately mishandle, msimanage and delay some, or many, or most, mail ballots, correct?

Beliefs and concerns can, and sometimes do, justify themselves --- at least that's what you repeatedly stated about the former.




Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 11, 2020, 07:50:14 AM
It's a matter of time, and of how much distrust and hate Trump and his spineless enablers gin up in Trumpworld.

As I was telling Dave (SonicMan) in the ‘Missing Members’ thread, it’s scary to think how much more damage Trump can do since he’s still in office and can’t be ousted legally until January.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 11, 2020, 08:03:44 AM
So you really claim that the USPS did deliberately mishandle, msimanage and delay some, or many, or most, mail ballots, correct?

Beliefs and concerns can, and sometimes do, justify themselves --- at least that's what you repeatedly stated about the former.






     No, I don't make any claim about facts that can't be supported about the mail delays. And no, nothing is true because it's believed. Preferably, it's believed because it's true.

     It could be that DeJoy delayed mail delivery for no other purpose than to save money. I doubt that is the case. I think the destruction of mail sorting machines was not a money saving operation. We are entitled to put the most likely construction on the facts as they are. Only then can you have beliefs and concerns.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 11, 2020, 08:07:42 AM
     No, I don't make any claim about facts that can't be supported
.

Very good.


Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: JBS on November 11, 2020, 08:10:55 AM
Not confounding at all, they don't want to alienate Trump supporters who have the power to replace them in the next primary.  They all know the fraud allegations are baseless and Biden will be president.  There is also some quid pro quo for the Dems attempts to delegitimize Trump's 2016 victory.  This is why you hear language like ' he has every right to look into allegations'


It also gives them an excuse to obstruct Biden every way they can and motivate votes in both 2022 and 2024.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: JBS on November 11, 2020, 08:15:51 AM
Might as well drop this here.

At least one section of the Proud Boys has decided now is a good time to announce it has been, is, and always will be a bunch of white supremacists.

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/11/civil-war-brewing-inside-proud-boys-as-top-leader-says-hes-done-pretending-he-isnt-a-nazi/

One version of the story I've seen says they've actually changed their name to Proud Goys.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 11, 2020, 08:27:54 AM
     
     Proud Boys Infighting Sees Leading Member Form Breakaway Group to Fight 'White Genocide' (https://www.newsweek.com/proud-boys-based-stickman-enrique-tarrio-goys-1546597)

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 11, 2020, 08:48:12 AM
It also gives them an excuse to obstruct Biden every way they can and motivate votes in both 2022 and 2024.


They do not need excuses.  They are the opposition party.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 11, 2020, 10:56:26 AM
A record number of Republican women will serve in the House after the GOP ate into Democratic majority (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/10/house-races-historic-gains-gop-women-erode-democratic-majority/6169709002/)

The GOP ground game was solid.  Also, looks who's back:

The race that is sending Darrell Issa back to Congress carries lessons for California (https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-11-10/california-race-issa-campa-najjar-carries-lessons)

Huzzah!
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 11, 2020, 11:01:50 AM
As I was telling Dave (SonicMan) in the ‘Missing Members’ thread, it’s scary to think how much more damage Trump can do since he’s still in office and can’t be ousted legally until January.

Headline today, giving the lie to the "the policies matter, the character doesn't" enablers:

Chaotic presidential transition brings vulnerability, security risks to nation

read: Trump being an asshole brings vulnerability, security risks to nation
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 11, 2020, 11:03:56 AM
Trump lawyers suffer embarrassing rebukes from judges over voter fraud claims

Who knew the courts would be tougher than Hannity?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 11, 2020, 11:19:46 AM
Chaotic presidential transition brings vulnerability, security risks to nation

What are those exact vulnerability and security risks to nation? Does the article name them?


Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 11, 2020, 11:33:11 AM
Trump lawyers suffer embarrassing rebukes from judges over voter fraud claims

Since when is a banana republic dictator supposed to have his will presented in courts by lawyers, let alone rebuked by judges? Is not a banana republic dictator supposed to have his will implemented without delay by anyone, judges and courts included?

Boy, I would just love to watch live the first ever dictator in North America, ever to be arrested in, and evicted under military escort, from the presidential residence, and the first ever North American banana republic returning to what it's ever been, even under its ousted dictator: a republic ruled by the rule of law.



Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 11, 2020, 12:01:23 PM
What are those exact vulnerability and security risks to nation? Does the article name them?

I will re-post:

"I imagine it is stuff.  Perhaps things."

A question to the moderator who deleted the first response, how does this violate the new rules?  The intention of the post is to point out the vagueness and lack of specifics in the so far ambiguous concerns about security risks.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: BasilValentine on November 11, 2020, 12:02:10 PM
Since when is a banana republic dictator supposed to have his will presented in courts by lawyers, let alone rebuked by judges? Is not a banana republic dictator supposed to have his will implemented without delay by anyone, judges and courts included?

Boy, I would just love to watch live the first ever dictator in North America, ever to be arrested in, and evicted under military escort, from the presidential residence, and the first ever North American banana republic returning to what it's ever been, even under its ousted dictator: a republic ruled by the rule of law.

It's all political theater. The election challenge doesn't have to be a serious one, since the object is to raise funds for future political action and paying off campaign debt. Trump's lawyers are used to being humiliated. That's what they're paid for. He has launched thousands of frivolous lawsuits in his life. No one takes them seriously. Trump has attempted to turn the U.S. into a banana republic, but he proved just as incompetent in that venture as at everything else he's done in his life — except perhaps playing a business tycoon on "reality" TV.

I will re-post:

"I imagine it is stuff.  Perhaps things."

A question to the moderator who deleted the first response, how does this violate the new rules?  The intention of the post is to point out the vagueness and lack of specifics in the so far ambiguous concerns about security risks.

I understood Todd's post as it was intended and agree that it wasn't trolling. It was just a dry way of asking for specific information.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 11, 2020, 12:16:29 PM
Biden's planned "day one" executive actions include:

- Rejoin Paris climate accord
- Reverse Muslim ban
- Reinstate DACA
- Reverse Trump rollback of Obama heath/environmental rules

Kyle Kulinski's comment: Wonderful stuff and this kind of start might be the best part of Biden presidency.

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 11, 2020, 12:20:40 PM
Biden's planned "day one" executive actions include:

- Rejoin Paris climate accord
- Reverse Muslim ban
- Reinstate DACA
- Reverse Trump rollback of Obama heath/environmental rules

Kyle Kulinski's comment: Wonderful stuff and this kind of start might be the best part of Biden presidency.


It is instructive that with respect to DACA, an executive order will be used to repeal an executive order than countermanded an executive order.  I guess that's democratic.

On ACA changes, that will be tougher, because Congress changed some of the ACA.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Handelian on November 11, 2020, 12:25:27 PM

It also gives them an excuse to obstruct Biden every way they can and motivate votes in both 2022 and 2024.

Excuse me, but I seem to remember Democrats obstructing Trump in every way when he was elected. Why the double standards?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 11, 2020, 12:42:01 PM
Trump has attempted to turn the U.S. into a banana republic

Seriously now, I am a disinterested third party from another country (I borrow this apt phrase from another poster) --- with a twist: I was born and raised in a country named the Socialist Republic of Romania which was a Communist dictatorship ever since it was proclaimed (December 30, 1947) until it fell (December 22, 1989). I know from personal experience exactly and precisely what a dictatorship is and looks like, and how a dictator behaves. With all due respect --- and actually very fortunately and very good for them --- not a single any other GMGer currently active can say that, with one possible exception (member pi2000). As such, it is my firm conviction that neither was Donald Trump a dictator nor did he try to become one, and that at no time between January 20, 2017 and January 20, 2020 did the USA have the slightest resemblance to a dictatorship in the making, let alone a full-fledged one.

Quote
I understood Todd's post as it was intended and agree that it wasn't trolling. It was just a dry way of asking for specific information.

Why Todd's post was considered trolling is beyon me, too. Maybe it was a misunderstanding.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 11, 2020, 12:50:51 PM
Excuse me, but I seem to remember Democrats obstructing Trump in every way when he was elected. Why the double standards?

Quod licet Iovi non licet bovi.  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Handelian on November 11, 2020, 01:09:12 PM
Quod licet Iovi non licet bovi.  ;D ;D ;D

All double standards and self righteousness are fair in politics!  ;D
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 11, 2020, 01:17:06 PM
All double standards and self righteousness are fair in politics!  ;D

We Romanians have a saying; politics is a whore. ;D
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 11, 2020, 01:35:30 PM
Seriously now, I am a disinterested third party from another country (I borrow this apt phrase from another poster) --- with a twist: I was born and raised in a country named the Socialist Republic of Romania which was a Communist dictatorship ever since it was proclaimed (December 30, 1947) until it fell (December 22, 1989). I know from personal experience exactly and precisely what a dictatorship is and looks like, and how a dictator behaves. With all due respect --- and actually very fortunately and very good for them --- not a single any other GMGer currently active can say that, with one possible exception (member pi2000). As such, it is my firm conviction that neither was Donald Trump a dictator nor did he try to become one, and that at no time between January 20, 2017 and January 20, 2020 did the USA have the slightest resemblance to a dictatorship in the making, let alone a full-fledged one.

I understand what you mean and yes, the US has been nothing like Socialist Republic of Romania. That said, countries are not 0 % democratic or 100 % democratic. It's a scale. One country can be 78 % democratic, the next 81 % democratic and then one is only 26 % democratic and so on. Trump's actions pushed the US to less democratic direction. How much? Hard to say, but the direction is clear.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 11, 2020, 01:44:23 PM
I understand what you mean and yes, the US has been nothing like Socialist Republic of Romania.

Thanks for conceding my point.


Quote
countries are not 0 % democratic or 100 % democratic.

Okay. What's your estimation of Finland?

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 11, 2020, 01:45:42 PM
You know, listening to some Mozart puts me in a good mood. I recommend it.

-Bruce

My plan for 2020 was to listen to a lot of Mozart, but I haven't listened to Mozart much and the year is ending in just 50 days...  :P
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 11, 2020, 01:47:49 PM
Excuse me, but I seem to remember Democrats obstructing Trump in every way when he was elected. Why the double standards?

But you don't recall the Republicans obstructing Obama in every possible way during his terms, especially the second? It the point of holding his SCOTUS nominee hostage for nearly a year and refusing to allow it to come to a vote?

Or Mitch McConnell saying that the proudest moments of his career came from obstructing every step Obama took?

I'm a long way from condoning this, I think it is shit. However, it is not one side always eating the shit sandwich, it goes both ways. At the very least I can say that the Dems obstructed T***p for political reasons, not the same ones the Reps had for obstructing Obama.

8)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 11, 2020, 01:49:00 PM
My plan for 2020 was to listen to a lot of Mozart, but I haven't listened to Mozart much and the year is ending in just 50 days...  :P

Well, you damn sure better get started. I've been holding up your end for now, Poju, but you need to see the team through December!  :D

8)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 11, 2020, 01:53:05 PM
I can say that the Dems obstructed T***p for political reasons, not the same ones the Reps had for obstructing Obama.

Just as I said: Quod licet Iovi non licet bovi..
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 11, 2020, 01:57:34 PM
What are those exact vulnerability and security risks to nation? Does the article name them?




     Trump doesn't know anything about sources and methods, and if he did he wouldn't care. It's not just what you reveal about information about a hostile nation, it's what the information reveals about the means used to get it. I would hope that no details about which sources and which methods appear in the news. It should be stuff, or possibly things.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 11, 2020, 01:59:09 PM
Thanks for conceding my point.

You're welcome.

Okay. What's your estimation of Finland?

99.999 %  ;D Well, perhaps a little lower than that, but Finland is one of the most democratic/least corrupt* countries in the world.

* Corruption Perceptions Index (CPI) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index) puts Finland at place 3 (2019) behind Denmark and New Zealand sharing the first place. The US is at place 23 and Romania 70. Somalia is considered the most corrupt of all countries.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 11, 2020, 02:05:15 PM
Well, you damn sure better get started. I've been holding up your end for now, Poju, but you need to see the team through December!  :D

8)

Well, I did discover Haydn's Op. 20 last summer and that's not far from Mozart... ...maybe Mozart's Requiem could be proper listening to honour those who have died because of Covid-19?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 11, 2020, 02:06:04 PM
99.999 %  ;D Well, perhaps a little lower than that, but Finland is one of the most democratic/least corrupt* countries in the world.

Well, we Romanians have a saying: "Every Gypsy man sings the praises of his own hammer!".
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: BasilValentine on November 11, 2020, 02:40:41 PM
Excuse me, but I seem to remember Democrats obstructing Trump in every way when he was elected. Why the double standards?

If you are referring to the transition period for the Trump administration and the handover, this is nonsense. The Trump administration was unprepared to take power and as a consequence hundreds of Obama administration officials had to stay in their jobs while the incoming incompetents tried to get their act together. They were coddled and assisted the whole way.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 11, 2020, 02:47:27 PM
     
I understand what you mean and yes, the US has been nothing like Socialist Republic of Romania. That said, countries are not 0 % democratic or 100 % democratic. It's a scale. One country can be 78 % democratic, the next 81 % democratic and then one is only 26 % democratic and so on. Trump's actions pushed the US to less democratic direction. How much? Hard to say, but the direction is clear.

     You are not an absolutist, so you may not recognize the kind of argument that treats categories as entirely distinct entities in themselves. Is Putin a dictator, or Duterte? Does the category of illiberal democracy "exist", or is it shorthand for a set of characteristics often found together, as is the case with fascism, if that's what fascism is. What form of government does Hungary have, as differentiated from what is practiced there?

     Next: The problem of universals, threat or menace? (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 11, 2020, 02:53:03 PM
  Is Putin a dictator

Yes.

Quote
What form of government does Hungary have

Republic.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 11, 2020, 02:58:26 PM
If you are referring to the transition period for the Trump administration and the handover, this is nonsense. The Trump administration was unprepared to take power and as a consequence hundreds of Obama administration officials had to stay in their jobs while the incoming incompetents tried to get their act together. They were coddled and assisted the whole way.

     Yes, just as Obama was set up for success by the Bush people, Trump was by the Obamans. It's the way it's been done going back as far as anyone remembers.

     
Well, we Romanians have a saying: "Every Gypsy man sings the praises of his own hammer!".

     Is that what you do?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 11, 2020, 02:59:02 PM
The Sweaty Clown Car Goes to Court:

"Kallman claims they were forcing observers to stand 20 feet away. The judge asks him for evidence of that. Kallman quickly retreats from the 20-feet claim.

Perfect:  The ultimate goal is illusory—Biden has won the election free and fair, and nibbling at such large margins is a flea convinced he's going to swallow the lion.

The short-term strategy gets laughed of court—anecdote may pass for "evidence" on Fox & Friends, but not to a judge.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 11, 2020, 03:14:56 PM

    Trump is ill-suited to be a dictator for the same reasons he is ill suited to be leader of anything other than his own rather dubious enterprises that were built to contain him. His admiration and desire to emulate dictators and not quite-tators is pronounced, though.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 11, 2020, 03:18:15 PM
Headline today, giving the lie to the "the policies matter, the character doesn't" enablers:

Chaotic presidential transition brings vulnerability, security risks to nation

read: Trump being an asshole brings vulnerability, security risks to nation

It’s certainly discerning to say the least. Just for the record, I’m not a Republican or Democrat, but I do feel that I’m a centrist in that I’m not onboard with the extremism of both parties (i. e. the far right/left). I do feel that Biden is more of the man for the job than Trump ever will be. If anything, let’s hope he handles this COVID crisis with more care than the do nothing currently in office. I do think he will also help restore our place in the world, which we should be seen as an ally not an enemy and certainly not the butt end of a joke. Patching things up with China and France would be a good start.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 11, 2020, 03:20:33 PM
You're welcome.

99.999 %  ;D Well, perhaps a little lower than that, but Finland is one of the most democratic/least corrupt* countries in the world.

* Corruption Perceptions Index (CPI) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index) puts Finland at place 3 (2019) behind Denmark and New Zealand sharing the first place. The US is at place 23 and Romania 70. Somalia is considered the most corrupt of all countries.

     If I insist that Romania should be #5 do I have to get a new passport?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 11, 2020, 03:45:14 PM
    Trump is ill-suited to be a dictator for the same reasons he is ill suited to be leader of anything other than his own rather dubious enterprises that were built to contain him. His admiration and desire to emulate dictators and not quite-tators is pronounced, though.

His navel-gazing ineptitude notwithstanding, he's a bad precedent.  Our government only works when the actors are in good faith.

America’s Next Authoritarian Will Be Much More Competent (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/11/trump-proved-authoritarians-can-get-elected-america/617023/)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on November 11, 2020, 03:50:17 PM
His navel-gazing ineptitude notwithstanding, he's a bad precedent.  Our government only works when the actors are in good faith.

America’s Next Authoritarian Will Be Much More Competent (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/11/trump-proved-authoritarians-can-get-elected-america/617023/)

That's a good article. Sadly.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 11, 2020, 03:51:07 PM
Verily.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 11, 2020, 04:16:01 PM
     
     Is that what you do?

Probably. You tell me.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: JBS on November 11, 2020, 05:22:05 PM
     
     You are not an absolutist, so you may not recognize the kind of argument that treats categories as entirely distinct entities in themselves. Is Putin a dictator, or Duterte? Does the category of illiberal democracy "exist", or is it shorthand for a set of characteristics often found together, as is the case with fascism, if that's what fascism is. What form of government does Hungary have, as differentiated from what is practiced there?

     Next: The problem of universals, threat or menace? (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)

Nominally a threat.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 11, 2020, 05:36:52 PM
Another senate victory for the GOP today. I fully expect the two Georgia seats to go red in January as the Dem power grab gets exposed further. I take it that Biden may still be the president after all the court challenges and recounting but once your bugaboo Trump is gone I doubt you’ll get half the blue voters to turn out in the midterms. Meanwhile, MAGA is strong and growing in numbers. 

May God grant Trump health and vitality to get his presidency back in 2024. If he cannot run again, the Republicans will be ok so long as they stick with the populist agenda.

It's nice to have a dream.

I see the postal worker who initially charged all sorts of post office voter fraud in Erie PA recanted his story and admitted he made the whole thing up. I also see the cases which have gone to court now stand at 0 wins, 10 losses.

Curious how that power grab thing is going to play out. Other than you and Louis Gohmert I haven't seen anyone else buying into it much. It is a con to raise more money from the gullible people out there who subscribe to the T***p Cult of Personality.

When it runs out of steam, as it will (soon), then a new con will arise. When you are dealing with petty grifters, cons are the only thing you can expect.

8)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 11, 2020, 05:42:02 PM
Seriously now, I am a disinterested third party from another country (I borrow this apt phrase from another poster) --- with a twist: I was born and raised in a country named the Socialist Republic of Romania which was a Communist dictatorship ever since it was proclaimed (December 30, 1947) until it fell (December 22, 1989). I know from personal experience exactly and precisely what a dictatorship is and looks like, and how a dictator behaves. With all due respect --- and actually very fortunately and very good for them --- not a single any other GMGer currently active can say that, with one possible exception (member pi2000). As such, it is my firm conviction that neither was Donald Trump a dictator nor did he try to become one, and that at no time between January 20, 2017 and January 20, 2020 did the USA have the slightest resemblance to a dictatorship in the making, let alone a full-fledged one.

I'm sorry but I'm not buying this unique perspective of yours.

Also it presupposes the notion that denizens of former Soviet satellite states are fundamentally better prepared for democracy and unfortunately there is not much on the ground evidence for that. Too many of those countries are still relatively weak in that respect.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 11, 2020, 05:44:53 PM
It's nice to have a dream.

I see the postal worker who initially charged all sorts of post office voter fraud in Erie PA recanted his story and admitted he made the whole thing up.

Of all places in Erie PA?

The town Trump said he would never go to?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 11, 2020, 06:01:52 PM
Stay tuned, Gurn. This election was like no other due to the vote by mail ballots being shipped out everywhere. Clearly a Dem strategy to win.

That Penn St postal worker has denied he recanted and has been suspended without pay for not staying quiet about the power grab. 

Biden may wind up as president but let the process work itself out. I do take heart in the GOP gains in the house and the chance to have 52 senate seats. At the very least the nutty left wing agenda won’t come to fruition.

Well, we will just have to see. I have to assume from your statements here that your position is that anyone who is to your left is per definitionem part of the "nutty left wing". Which is interesting, since for the many years I was 'right of center', half the Republican party was left of me, and now, though I haven't moved at all, 3/4 of the Republican party is to my right. It is cool, in its own way, that now I have finally reached the age where I am one of those wicked Lefties again.  :D :D

8)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 11, 2020, 06:31:06 PM
I found this article interesting. About 2 years ago, I created a fake email address which I trolled through T***pLand so they would start me on their mailing list. It took almost 10 minutes to get my first letter, but they have come in a steady stream, nay, a raging torrent, since then. Over the last week, I have been getting ~20 emails a day. So I did some looking around in news organizations I have some confidence in to find some background about them. [url-https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-fundraising-insigh/donations-under-8k-to-trump-election-defense-instead-go-to-president-rnc-idUSKBN27R309]This article [/url]was in Reuters:

Quote
(Reuters) - As President Donald Trump seeks to discredit last week’s election with baseless claims of voter fraud, his team has bombarded his supporters with requests for money to help pay for legal challenges to the results: “The Left will try to STEAL this election!” reads one text. But any small-dollar donations from Trump’s grassroots donors won’t be going to legal expenses at all, according to a Reuters review of the legal language in the solicitations.

A donor would have to give more than $8,000 before any money goes to the “recount account” established to finance election challenges, including recounts and lawsuits over alleged improprieties, the fundraising disclosures show.

The emailed solicitations send supporters to an “Official Election Defense Fund” website that asks them to sign up for recurring donations to “protect the results and keep fighting even after Election Day.”

The fine print makes clear most of the money will go to other priorities.

A large portion of the money goes to “Save America,” a Trump leadership PAC, or political action committee, set up on Monday, and the Republican National Committee (RNC). Under Federal Election Commission rules, both groups have broad leeway in how they can use the funds.

The Trump campaign, the RNC and Trump’s new Save America PAC did not respond to requests for comment.

Leadership PACs such as Save America are often set up by prominent political figures to spend money on other candidates, while also paying for personal expenses, such as travel and hotel stays.

The disclosures would allow Trump and the RNC to channel the donations into other political causes or campaigns, such as the two high-stakes January Senate runoff races in Georgia that could determine control of the Senate and are likely to rank among the most expensive races in U.S. history.

Trump’s solicitation website carries a banner headline that says “OFFICIAL ELECTION DEFENSE FUND” and “CONTRIBUTE NOW.”

Scrolling down the page would take a donor to the fine print, which shows that donations are split between “Save America,” which gets 60% of the money, and the RNC, which gets the other 40%. None of the money flows to Trump’s official “recount” committee fund until Trump’s Save America share reaches the legal contribution limit of $5,000, according to the disclosures.

That means that, before a dollar goes into the recount fund, Save America would receive $5,000 and the RNC around $3,300. Donations to the recount committee are legally limited to $2,800.

If a Trump donor gave $500, for instance, $300 would go to Trump’s Save America PAC, $200 would to the RNC - and nothing would go to his election defense fund.

One Republican political strategist said Trump is misleading supporters who might give small donations to whatever cause he approves.

“It’s important to be up front with people - especially those who are digging deep into their pockets to come up with $25,” said Michael DuHaime, a former political director at the RNC. “If you tell them it’s going for legal fees, well then it should go for legal fees.”

If you still haven't figured it out, this is yet another example of the fleecing of America. It is how the man works.

8)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Brewski on November 11, 2020, 07:17:15 PM
Another adult scheduled to arrive at the White House: Ron Klain as Chief of Staff. “His deep, varied experience and capacity to work with people all across the political spectrum is precisely what I need in a White House chief of staff as we confront this moment of crisis and bring our country together again.”

https://buildbackbetter.com/press-releases/president-elect-joe-biden-names-ron-klain-as-white-house-chief-of-staff/

--Bruce
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: JBS on November 11, 2020, 07:20:38 PM
Another adult scheduled to arrive at the White House: Ron Klain as Chief of Staff. “His deep, varied experience and capacity to work with people all across the political spectrum is precisely what I need in a White House chief of staff as we confront this moment of crisis and bring our country together again.”

https://buildbackbetter.com/press-releases/president-elect-joe-biden-names-ron-klain-as-white-house-chief-of-staff/

--Bruce
He has pandemic experience, having headed up Obama's Ebola team.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 11, 2020, 07:44:50 PM
I found this article interesting. About 2 years ago, I created a fake email address which I trolled through T***pLand so they would start me on their mailing list. It took almost 10 minutes to get my first letter, but they have come in a steady stream, nay, a raging torrent, since then. Over the last week, I have been getting ~20 emails a day. So I did some looking around in news organizations I have some confidence in to find some background about them. [url-https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-fundraising-insigh/donations-under-8k-to-trump-election-defense-instead-go-to-president-rnc-idUSKBN27R309]This article [/url]was in Reuters:

If you still haven't figured it out, this is yet another example of the fleecing of America. It is how the man works.

8)

Yep. I guess some embrace the delusion.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 12, 2020, 12:53:44 AM
I found this article interesting. About 2 years ago, I created a fake email address which I trolled through T***pLand so they would start me on their mailing list. It took almost 10 minutes to get my first letter, but they have come in a steady stream, nay, a raging torrent, since then.

That's heroic.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 12, 2020, 01:29:53 AM
I do feel that I’m a centrist in that I’m not onboard with the extremism of both parties (i. e. the far right/left).

The left wing of the Dems is not that left really. They just look far left because the Overton Window has moved so right. Progressives have very sane and normal policies.

They want to save the planet while give people jobs with Green new deal. Are you not onboard saving the planet and giving people jobs?
They want to give everyone healthcare like every other developped country does. Are you not onboad?

Centrists are actually right-winger and the "right"- Biden is a right-winger. He does not believe everyone should have healthcare. That's RADICAL and VERY right-wing.

You should re-evaluate you opinions. Why do you have them? Corporate media?
Or don't do anything. What do I care. It's not my country we are talking about.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Daverz on November 12, 2020, 02:02:39 AM
It’s certainly discerning to say the least. Just for the record, I’m not a Republican or Democrat, but I do feel that I’m a centrist in that I’m not onboard with the extremism of both parties (i. e. the far right/left).

Have to agree with 71 on this, ideologically the Democratic Party is at most center-left extending to center-right and even right wing (Chris Coons?).  I don't think even AOC believes the proletariat should seize the means of production.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Handelian on November 12, 2020, 02:15:03 AM
Seriously now, I am a disinterested third party from another country (I borrow this apt phrase from another poster) --- with a twist: I was born and raised in a country named the Socialist Republic of Romania which was a Communist dictatorship ever since it was proclaimed (December 30, 1947) until it fell (December 22, 1989). I know from personal experience exactly and precisely what a dictatorship is and looks like, and how a dictator behaves. With all due respect --- and actually very fortunately and very good for them --- not a single any other GMGer currently active can say that, with one possible exception (member pi2000). As such, it is my firm conviction that neither was Donald Trump a dictator nor did he try to become one, and that at no time between January 20, 2017 and January 20, 2020 did the USA have the slightest resemblance to a dictatorship in the making, let alone a full-fledged one.

Why Todd's post was considered trolling is beyon me, too. Maybe it was a misunderstanding.

Sorry mate, but you won't get any change out of those who are convinced that Trump was a dictator, even though any examination of his term of office shows how ludicrous such a charge is. The fact that he is uncouth and vulgar does not make a man a dictator, as he had the American constitution to contend with. The same ridiculous charge was levelled against our prime minister when he refused to answer the pointless and tiresome question from a tiresome and overpaid journalist. Just that these labels are very convenient and impress people of shallow thinking. Those of us who actually know some history about Romania will know the terrors of the regime there were simply horrific and far removed form anything most Americans could dream about. As one who has been to countries rules by dictatorships I can say the same. Say you don't like Trump by all means but please be more informed with your labels.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 12, 2020, 02:18:33 AM
Biden is a right-winger. He does not believe everyone should have healthcare. That's RADICAL and VERY right-wing.

You should re-evaluate you opinions. Why do you have them? Corporate media?
Or don't do anything. What do I care. It's not my country we are talking about.

This is sooo previous USA thread.

I agree with you about the Overton window, but why keep saying this?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 12, 2020, 02:32:57 AM
Sorry mate, but you won't get any change out of those who are convinced that Trump was a dictator, even though any examination of his term of office shows how ludicrous such a charge is.

I think people are saying Trump is trying to be a dictator and his party is not very good at stopping him.

Re "term of office": Trump has been musing publicly about a third or even fourth term for years. Just as he's now talking about a 2nd term even though the public has denied him this.

All these performative musings are part of his testing the waters for a power takeover, which most likely would fail anyway because he's failure personified.

However, if you're the Head of State, the things you say matter a lot (which is why in normal cases they don't say a lot).
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 12, 2020, 02:44:35 AM
The NYTimes about Mike Pence:

"Mr. Pence’s allies expect him to return to Indiana and make a living giving paid speeches and potentially writing a book. It will be the first time in a long time that Mr. Pence will live as a private citizen — he moved from the governor’s mansion in Indiana to temporary housing in Washington during the presidential transition four years ago to the Naval Observatory. He currently does not own a house."

I can't imagine the crazy fan scenes if Pence (also called "Pounds" by Trump) were to give speeches, paid or not.

It's somehow strangely characteristic that the Pences have been living in public housing for like, aeons, and don't own their own home.

Just as he does not want to meet or talk with women other than his wife (aka "Mother") I expect he thinks being in one's own home is an incitement to ungodly thoughts. It's cheaper as well, just like not having lunch with a woman person.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Sterna on November 12, 2020, 02:53:34 AM
This is sooo previous USA thread.

You must be joking.

All bs here is sooo previous USA thread(s).

I did check Joe Biden on Presto Classical. Couldn't find anything.

(https://i.imgur.com/R5DWlk5.jpg)

He's not going to do a duetto disc with Donald Trump?

Pity.

(https://i.imgur.com/68axgqP.jpg)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 12, 2020, 03:33:10 AM
Have to agree with 71 on this,

Good for you!  ;)

ideologically the Democratic Party is at most center-left extending to center-right and even right wing (Chris Coons?).  I don't think even AOC believes the proletariat should seize the means of production.

Yep. AOC is clear about what she advocates. People should listen to her instead of Ben Shapiro about what she is advocating. Oligarchs don't pay Ben Shapiro to be factually correct about AOC, but to fearmonger.

This is sooo previous USA thread.

I agree with you about the Overton window, but why keep saying this?

Because people seem to keep forgetting  the Overton window and where it is.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 12, 2020, 05:18:01 AM
For goodness sake, every president of the United States I have ever seen has tried to be a dictator in the sense that they have tried to get their policies through. That is what presidents do. The reason they are not dictators is the Constitution of the United States which prevents that.I know Trump is not helping himself by the way he acts but all these conspiracy theories to me are ludicrous. He has every right to challenge the result according to the Constitution and the legal process will take its course. In the same way as the Democrats challenged the result of the 2016 election

Trying to get one's policies through doesn't make one a would be dictator.

Also, I don't think any US American could write or say the above.

There are a lot of non-Americans with very strong feelings or ideas about this, and I'm not sure this always helps.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 12, 2020, 06:55:39 AM
I've seen and heard various discussions as to what Pres. Trump's life might be like post-January 20th.  Here are some interesting things to ponder:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54875343

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Brewski on November 12, 2020, 06:56:37 AM
Reminder: Please keep it civil, folks. We are moderating this thread more closely than in the past, and don't have patience for back-and-forth insults.

Thank you.

--Bruce
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Zeus on November 12, 2020, 07:41:57 AM
Hopefully, with Trump on his way out of office, and once the constant stream of lying dies down, we can take a look at some painful facts.

Like this one: the US health care system kinda sucks.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Life_expectancy_vs_healthcare_spending.jpg)

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 12, 2020, 08:14:16 AM
     GOP leaders’ embrace of Trump’s refusal to concede fits pattern of rising authoritarianism, data shows (https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/11/12/republican-party-trump-authoritarian-data/)

     It's now acceptable among some Repubs to express anti-democratic views. This puts Repubs in the position of competing in elections they don't regard as authentic. Elections that are a sham if they lose are a sham, period. They are not inexplicably genuine if the "right" side wins. By what process could such a thing happen?

     You are in a fog of belief if you choose to abandon objective criteria for partisan reasons. Repubs are in the position of appealing to election officials of their own party to "admit" that they have run crooked elections. Since no evidence is offered it's belief all the way down.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Que on November 12, 2020, 08:38:21 AM
Hopefully, with Trump on his way out of office, and once the constant stream of lying dies down, we can take a look at some painful facts.

Like this one: the US health care system kinda sucks.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Life_expectancy_vs_healthcare_spending.jpg)

Right. The most expensive and the least efficiënt amongst developed nations - check...

But you know that many in the US think that the US is so "unique" (exceptional) that a health care system with a universal/collective element in it is "not suitable". The best way of dealing with this kind of comparative statistics is to claim they do not apply to you. (Same with guns.... ) Besides, good and generally accessible and affordable health care reeks of socialism and is bad for share holders of insurance and pharmaceutical companies.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 12, 2020, 08:39:28 AM
     GOP leaders’ embrace of Trump’s refusal to concede fits pattern of rising authoritarianism, data shows (https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/11/12/republican-party-trump-authoritarian-data/)

     It's now acceptable among some Repubs to express anti-democratic views. This puts Repubs in the position of competing in elections they don't regard as authentic. Elections that are a sham if they lose are a sham, period. They are not inexplicably genuine if the "right" side wins. By what process could such a thing happen?

     You are in a fog of belief if you choose to abandon objective criteria for partisan reasons. Repubs are in the position of appealing to election officials of their own party to "admit" that they have run crooked elections. Since no evidence is offered it's belief all the way down.

Ah, the right-wing disinformation ecosystem....
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 12, 2020, 08:59:34 AM
Ah, the right-wing disinformation ecosystem....

     It's not just the Repubs who can't control their subjects. Putin isn't sure what instructions to issue. Q has gone dark, and his alter ego says he wants to spend more time with whatever people spend more time with. People who are not thinky are not knowing what to think. There's no muscle memory to draw on.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: BasilValentine on November 12, 2020, 09:17:01 AM
Sorry mate, but you won't get any change out of those who are convinced that Trump was a dictator, even though any examination of his term of office shows how ludicrous such a charge is. The fact that he is uncouth and vulgar does not make a man a dictator, as he had the American constitution to contend with. The same ridiculous charge was levelled against our prime minister when he refused to answer the pointless and tiresome question from a tiresome and overpaid journalist. Just that these labels are very convenient and impress people of shallow thinking. Those of us who actually know some history about Romania will know the terrors of the regime there were simply horrific and far removed form anything most Americans could dream about. As one who has been to countries rules by dictatorships I can say the same. Say you don't like Trump by all means but please be more informed with your labels.

Who said Trump was a dictator? Anyone we know? Anyone we've heard of?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 12, 2020, 09:36:59 AM
But you know that many in the US think that the US is so "unique" (exceptional) that a health care system with a universal/collective element in it is "not suitable". The best way of dealing with this kind of comparative statistics is to claim they do not apply to you. (Same with guns.... ) Besides, good and generally accessible and affordable health care reeks of socialism and is bad for share holders of insurance and pharmaceutical companies.

What's "unique" with the US is the fact how the politicians (well, almost all of them anyway) serve the top 1 % instead of regular people, how corrupt the system is. That's the difference and the reason why American healthcare system is so different. Nothing else makes the US "not suitable." The main purpose of the US healthcare system is not to give people healthcare, but to maximize the profits for insurance and drug companies. If you look at the curves, the US is among the other countries up until late 70's and after that starts to go it's own way. Late 70's was when corruption was effectively made legal (Buckley v. Valeo: Money = $peech). If other countries are doing "socialism" and the US is doing "capitalism" we can easily see how "socialism" is superior to "capitalism" when it comes to healthcare. Capitalism is superior in many other things, but not here. Rational people look at empirical evidence. Single payer healthcare can have a lot of capitalism in it. The service providers can be private as they are in France or Canada for example. They important thing is public funding of those services ( =socialism according to right-wing fearmongers, but is actually social democracy). That's where the US system fails miserably because of utter corruption.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 12, 2020, 09:38:39 AM
David French: "The wave of initial vote fraud rumors has been decisively debunked, so now the president retreats to the farthest fringes of conspiracy theory, to the software vote fairy that magically changes the count."
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Zeus on November 12, 2020, 09:42:50 AM
The US is pursuing "monopolism".

Pros: high profits, high asset prices, businesses catering to the top 10% to 20% are booming.

Cons: rising income and wealth inequality, stagnating industries, declining global competitiveness, declining living standards for the majority.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 12, 2020, 09:44:35 AM
That's heroic.

Beyond which, it was eye-opening. If you only read the mainstream media, you saw just the tip of the BS iceberg. :D

8)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Que on November 12, 2020, 09:46:26 AM
That's where the US system fails miserably because of utter corruption.

I don't see any evidence of that level of corruption in the USA. I however do see a (traditionally) high level of distrust in government and an unwillingness to pay taxes. After all, US independence was not fought over the lofty ideals in the US Constitution, but over taxes to the British Crown.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Zeus on November 12, 2020, 09:48:43 AM
Once again the GOP ran up the federal deficit like drunken sailors; once again it falls on the Dems to restore fiscal sobriety.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 12, 2020, 09:53:49 AM
Like this one: the US health care system kinda sucks.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Life_expectancy_vs_healthcare_spending.jpg)

I just watched the Sandra Bullock movie "The Net" from 1995 on Blu-ray and in one scene it has demonstrators on street. One of the big signs had the test: "Healthcare is a human right, not a priviledge". It's now 25 years after the movie and that message is as relevant as ever, in fact more relevant because healthcare prices have been going up fast.

 :P
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 12, 2020, 09:56:05 AM
Who said Trump was a dictator? Anyone we know? Anyone we've heard of?

     Even if we gave him maximum credit for effort, Trump isn't a dictator. He's simply not up to it. To be fair, it would be difficult for anyone. Democratic states are designed to be deep enough to withstand assault by autocrats. It's not just a matter of form, it's how form and practice are fused. As an economist might say, the Constitution in the US is largely a "post facto identity", a compact to formalize a path already taken.

I don't see any evidence of that level of corruption in the USA. I however do see a (traditionally) high level of distrust in government and an unwillingness to pay taxes. After all, US independence was not fought over the lofty ideals in the US Constitution, but over taxes to the British Crown.

     I see very little unwillingness to pay taxes. It's something people complain about. Even I do that, though not about what I pay. I pay more when my income goes up, less when it goes down. Maybe I'd get angry if it was the reverse.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 12, 2020, 09:59:11 AM
A dictator wannabe is not the same as a dictator! However, a dictator wannabe may someday become a real dictator and is therefor dangerous.

Once again the GOP ran up the federal deficit like drunken sailors; once again it falls on the Dems to restore fiscal sobriety.

Cenk Uygur of TYT used to be a Republican, but in mid 90's realized Republicans are lying when saying they are deficit hawks and started to question the whole Republican ideology. He found out it's all complete bs and became a leftist.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 12, 2020, 10:06:37 AM
It will soon be fashionable, again, to be a deficit hawk.  Can't wait.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 12, 2020, 10:11:49 AM
Beyond which, it was eye-opening. If you only read the mainstream media, you saw just the tip of the BS iceberg. :D

8)

I admit ... that was my suspicion.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 12, 2020, 10:16:53 AM

Cenk Uygur of TYT used to be a Republican, but in mid 90's realized Republicans are lying when saying they are deficit hawks and started to question the whole Republican ideology. He found out it's all complete bs and became a leftist.

     Every time I read a story like this I wonder why so few people claim to be religious in these troubled times.

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: MusicTurner on November 12, 2020, 10:35:03 AM
     Every time I read a story like this I wonder why so few people claim to be religious in these troubled times.

Well, some do:

Paula White, associated with #45 to a surprising degree, was pretty open about it just the other day, and it's an amazing clip that went viral:
https://twitter.com/JamesOlympics/status/1324344754465890304
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_White)

#45 afficionados praying outside election countings:
https://twitter.com/redcachenet/status/1324625963800432641

But others however, like Kenneth Copeland, show their (own) sense of humour. Another amazing clip.
https://twitter.com/RightWingWatch/status/1325513157926932480
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Copeland)




Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 12, 2020, 10:41:39 AM
         I see very little unwillingness to pay taxes. It's something people complain about. Even I do that, though not about what I pay. I pay more when my income goes up, less when it goes down. Maybe I'd get angry if it was the reverse.

This jibes well with my own observations and sentiments. I don't mind paying taxes, they are needed to accomplish so many of the basic necessities, if for no other reason. I am not going to manufacture my own water and sewage systems, for example.

But like most other private citizens, we want to pay only our fair share, and we want everyone else to also pay their fair share. That's what the resistance comes from. If I make $40k and pay my taxes, and you make 2 billion and end up paying less than I do, then yes, I'm pretty f**king pissed. Anyone who wasn't would be some sort of saint, or else deficient on some front.

8)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: BasilValentine on November 12, 2020, 10:53:20 AM
Yes.

Sorry, neither of those quotations qualify. in the first instance the term is part of a fanciful metaphorical characterization of Trump's last days in office, the second statement said dictator wannabe. Try again.   
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 12, 2020, 11:05:55 AM
This jibes well with my own observations and sentiments. I don't mind paying taxes, they are needed to accomplish so many of the basic necessities, if for no other reason. I am not going to manufacture my own water and sewage systems, for example.

But like most other private citizens, we want to pay only our fair share, and we want everyone else to also pay their fair share. That's what the resistance comes from. If I make $40k and pay my taxes, and you make 2 billion and end up paying less than I do, then yes, I'm pretty f**king pissed...
+1
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 12, 2020, 11:21:51 AM


But like most other private citizens, we want to pay only our fair share, and we want everyone else to also pay their fair share. That's what the resistance comes from. If I make $40k and pay my taxes, and you make 2 billion and end up paying less than I do, then yes, I'm pretty f**king pissed. Anyone who wasn't would be some sort of saint, or else deficient on some front.

8)

     I'm not immune to the fairness argument. I just see it as secondary to my main concern, which is the synergy between efforts to raise income at lower levels and the ability of the economy to grow robustly. A growth policy will raise low incomes, an income policy will raise growth. Tax policy is one lever, spending the other. I observe we get our useful ideas of what's fair from the realization of how things work.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: vandermolen on November 12, 2020, 11:27:52 AM
It's going to provide comedians, writers, and filmmakers with comedy for years. Exhibit A: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAyh2xPrFvo&fbclid

--Bruce

V. funny!
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on November 12, 2020, 11:36:07 AM
Hopefully, with Trump on his way out of office, and once the constant stream of lying dies down, we can take a look at some painful facts.

Like this one: the US health care system kinda sucks.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Life_expectancy_vs_healthcare_spending.jpg)

Is this total spending or only govt spending?
If the healthcare spending decreases in a subsequent year, does the mark still proceed rightward or retreat leftward?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: vandermolen on November 12, 2020, 11:37:25 AM
As I was telling Dave (SonicMan) in the ‘Missing Members’ thread, it’s scary to think how much more damage Trump can do since he’s still in office and can’t be ousted legally until January.

Yes, as an outsider surely this is an argument for not having such a long gap between the election itself and the new President being sworn in. Personally I admire the way that Biden is dealing with it by, apparently, just getting on with the job and good for George W. for referring to Trump as the 'former President' and congratulating Biden.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 12, 2020, 11:39:40 AM
Yes, as an outsider surely this is an argument for not having such a long gap between the election itself and the new President being sworn in. Personally I admire the way that Biden is dealing with it by, apparently, just getting on with the job and good for George W. for referring to Trump as the 'former President' and congratulating Biden.
Yes, I was pleased to see George W. doing the correct, civil, kind and smart thing to do; now if that would just get through the head of our current president!  ::)

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Brewski on November 12, 2020, 11:43:57 AM
V. funny!

 ;D

Like many (I suspect), I have already found a photo of that Four Seasons Total Landscaping garage door, to use as a virtual Zoom background.

--Bruce
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 12, 2020, 11:51:57 AM
;D

Like many (I suspect), I have already found a photo of that Four Seasons Total Landscaping garage door, to use as a virtual Zoom background.

--Bruce
:laugh:  I couldn't believe that story when I first heard it; I thought "This has got to be a joke!"  At least the business is making some money off of it.  ;D

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/four-seasons-total-landscaping-enjoying-163131224.html
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 12, 2020, 12:05:00 PM
Yes, as an outsider surely this is an argument for not having such a long gap between the election itself and the new President being sworn in.

It was already moved up to January from March in the 30s.  We just need another Constitutional Amendment to move it up any further.  As it stands, it could not be earlier than the first day of the first session of a new Congress since under certain circumstances Congress would have to choose the president.  There is a lower probability of this being changed than the Electoral College being abolished.


It only took me five minutes, including the copypaste and inserting the quote brackets.

It is a bit interesting how people who were previously quite certain that Trump would steal the election - a definitively dictatorial action - now never believed such things.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 12, 2020, 12:05:48 PM
     I'm not immune to the fairness argument. I just see it as secondary to my main concern, which is the synergy between efforts to raise income at lower levels and the ability of the economy to grow robustly. A growth policy will raise low incomes, an income policy will raise growth. Tax policy is one lever, spending the other. I observe we get our useful ideas of what's fair from the realization of how things work.

Whilst that is all true, the question at hand was that a non-American was saying that he felt he could see that Americans don't want to pay taxes. The fairness argument is a lot more on point than some esoteric income leveling policy, which in 69 years on this planet, I have yet to see brought forward by anyone in everyday life. The 2 issues are:

No one I have spoken to (amazingly, really) has ever said a word about income leveling. Not that they shouldn't, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't contribute substantially to the reluctance to pay taxes expressed by some. Just sayin'...

8)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 12, 2020, 12:08:18 PM
It is a bit interesting how people who were previously quite certain that Trump would steal the election - a definitively dictatorial action - now never believed such things.

Btw, any news yet of those storm troops which were ready to wreak havoc on the Election Day by intimidating voters and quite possibly even shooting some of them?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Que on November 12, 2020, 12:09:09 PM
Reminder: discussion here is supposed to be on the topic and not about each other.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 12, 2020, 12:10:39 PM
Btw, any news yet of those storm troops which were ready to wreak havoc on the Election Day by intimidating voters and quite possibly even shooting some of them?


Didn't you hear, no one actually voted.  Everyone was cowed into staying home by the huge, roving bands of thugs dead set on stopping the vote.  The election was fake.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 12, 2020, 12:12:25 PM
Btw, any news yet of those storm troops which were ready to wreak havoc on the Election Day by intimidating voters and quite possibly even shooting some of them?

You say that as though it was something that the liberals made up, when in fact T***p himself said, several times at his Nuremberg rallies, that he wanted that to happen. Clearly no one took him seriously enough that they didn't come in and help vote him out of office.

8)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 12, 2020, 12:15:57 PM
Mona Charen: "The day after the firing of the secretary of defense who resisted the use of troops against peaceful American protesters is probably not a great time for the secretary of state to joke about a transition to a “second Trump administration.” If he was in fact joking. Welcome to what the Republican party is in 2020—a threat to democratic order.

I’ve had conversations in the past few days with people who disliked Trump enough to pull the lever for Biden but still believe that the Republican party itself is sound and will snap back to normal now that Trump is defeated.

I’d like to believe that, but the auguries are not good so far. The party’s leaders have closed ranks around Trump, repeating the lies and conspiracies he’s spinning about a stolen election. They are laying the predicate for the next four years—the stab in the back. Trump didn’t lose, he was robbed. Biden is not the president, he’s the usurper.

You really couldn’t have asked for a more open-handed Democrat than Joe Biden. He has made every effort to soothe the bitterness of our politics and attempted to unify the country. Someone on CNN said he had “slammed” Trump for failing to concede, but that’s wrong. He said it was “embarrassing” and wouldn’t burnish Trump’s legacy—which is about the mildest way to describe what Trump is doing."
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 12, 2020, 12:16:39 PM

Didn't you hear, no one actually voted.  Everyone was cowed into staying home by the huge, roving bands of thugs dead set on stopping the vote.  The election was fake.

I personally received this email yesterday, directly from Lara T***p herself.
Quote
This Election isn’t over yet and it’s imperative that we keep FIGHTING for every single LEGAL vote to be counted.

President Trump is putting together an exclusive group of his most reliable supporters, the Election Defense Task Force, and he needs YOU on the team to FIGHT BACK against the blatant voter fraud.

We cannot allow the Radical Left to subvert our Elections, which is why it’s so CRITICAL that you step up right now.

So you are probably right, Todd, the election WAS fake!  :o :o :o 

She wants me to send them my life savings. You think I should go ahead and do that? 
Signed: Dazed and Confused  ::)

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 12, 2020, 12:17:59 PM
Btw, any news yet of those storm troops which were ready to wreak havoc on the Election Day by intimidating voters and quite possibly even shooting some of them?

There were in fact incidents of voter intimidation. Are you sure you want to try to laugh it off?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 12, 2020, 12:20:56 PM

     Biden Can’t Stop America’s Democratic Decline (https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:H2pchZYfk9YJ:https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/11/12/biden-cant-stop-americas-democratic-decline/+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-b-1-d)

A few years ago I developed a moderately cheering theory about the effects of four years of U.S. President Donald Trump. The thought came to me while I was covering the French presidential elections in 2017. Very few French voters seemed to be attracted to Emmanuel Macron’s Anglo-American brand of liberalism, but they voted for him in overwhelming numbers against Marine Le Pen because they felt called to defend so-called republican values against her populist nativism. The French had a collective memory of their own brush with fascism during the Vichy era and the 1930s. So, too, the Spanish, who kept their own right wing firmly in check. Perhaps, I thought, Americans’ own problem was historical complacency; if so, Trump could provide a kind of homeopathic remedy which would inoculate them against the full-blown disease of authoritarianism without making them gravely ill.

I was wrong. The democratic catharsis that I hoped this election would produce did not happen and is not happening. I need not recite the evidence, as so many others have, including Foreign Policy’s editor, Jonathan Tepperman. It is enough to say that my medical metaphor got it backward: Trump exploited a preexisting condition of contempt for democratic norms and then made it vastly worse.


     The thesis is that neither party will be able to overcome the other until the system collapses and MechaTrump rules over the rubble.

You say that as though it was something that the liberals made up, when in fact T***p himself said, several times at his Nuremberg rallies, that he wanted that to happen. Clearly no one took him seriously enough that they didn't come in and help vote him out of office.

8)

     Trump didn't succeed so he didn't try, or something like that, or stuff.

     
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 12, 2020, 12:21:34 PM
She wants me to send them my life savings. You think I should go ahead and do that? 


No, absolutely not.  You should go ahead and send it to me, and I will spend it judiciously on good causes.  I will send you a PM with my bank account info.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 12, 2020, 12:25:54 PM

     We should agree on crediting Trump with his efforts. If anyone thought Trump would succeed in stealing an election by accusing the other side of stealing it, they have been proved wrong by events, usually the best proof. It's not a new thing that Trump doesn't get what he wants most of the time. Life is very unfair to him.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 12, 2020, 12:26:19 PM

No, absolutely not.  You should go ahead and send it to me, and I will spend it judiciously on good causes.  I will send you a PM with my bank account info.

:D

8)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: vandermolen on November 12, 2020, 12:26:46 PM
;D

Like many (I suspect), I have already found a photo of that Four Seasons Total Landscaping garage door, to use as a virtual Zoom background.

--Bruce

Brilliant!
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: vandermolen on November 12, 2020, 12:30:24 PM
It was already moved up to January from March in the 30s.  We just need another Constitutional Amendment to move it up any further.  As it stands, it could not be earlier than the first day of the first session of a new Congress since under certain circumstances Congress would have to choose the president.  There is a lower probability of this being changed than the Electoral College being abolished.
Thanks for the explanation re. dates. I realise that it's not that straightforward.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 12, 2020, 12:33:50 PM
     We should agree on crediting Trump with his efforts. If anyone thought Trump would succeed in stealing an election by accusing the other side of stealing it, they have been proved wrong by events, usually the best proof. It's not a new thing that Trump doesn't get what he wants most of the time. Life is very unfair to him.

By a 7-million margin, the voters want President Biden, and not to give a second term to the wankmaggot dotard, but the election was not the repudiation of Trumpism for which decent Americans hoped.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 12, 2020, 12:35:30 PM
Whilst that is all true, the question at hand was that a non-American was saying that he felt he could see that Americans don't want to pay taxes. The fairness argument is a lot more on point than some esoteric income leveling policy, which in 69 years on this planet, I have yet to see brought forward by anyone in everyday life. The 2 issues are:
  • Fairness
  • Irresponsible spending by the government

No one I have spoken to (amazingly, really) has ever said a word about income leveling. Not that they shouldn't, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't contribute substantially to the reluctance to pay taxes expressed by some. Just sayin'...

8)

     No, I don't expect people to understand how taxing and spending levels income as esoterically as I do. There's no danger of that. It would be good if people understood just a little that what people want in terms of fairness, when it's done, does what I describe, not in a future world but in this one. IOW to the degree that a policy, the present one or a future one, satisfies ideas of fairness it will be because it does something along the lines I describe, growing incomes and the economy.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Daverz on November 12, 2020, 12:39:07 PM
     Biden Can’t Stop America’s Democratic Decline (https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:H2pchZYfk9YJ:https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/11/12/biden-cant-stop-americas-democratic-decline/+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-b-1-d)

"[...] if one half of the country continues to regard democratic processes as a sinister means for empowering the other half."

Um, no, only one party regards democratic processes as sinister.  (Sorry to pull out one sentence from a long article, but that one just bugged me.)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 12, 2020, 12:50:50 PM
"[...] if one half of the country continues to regard democratic processes as a sinister means for empowering the other half."

Um, no, only one party regards democratic processes as sinister.  (Sorry to pull out one sentence from a long article, but that one just bugged me.)

     It doesn't say both halves have to think the same way. It's a belief one half has about the other. It could be true that both halves are symmetrical in believing the worst about each other, but it's not a necessary condition.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 12, 2020, 12:53:43 PM
     It doesn't say both halves have to think the same way. It's a belief one half has about the other. It could be true that both halves are symmetrical in believing the worst about each other, but it's not a necessary condition.

I do not think it is about any such symmetry.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 12, 2020, 01:02:23 PM
Yes, as an outsider surely this is an argument for not having such a long gap between the election itself and the new President being sworn in. Personally I admire the way that Biden is dealing with it by, apparently, just getting on with the job and good for George W. for referring to Trump as the 'former President' and congratulating Biden.

Well, it’s obvious that Biden won the election, I mean it’s beyond absurd at this juncture that former president Trump is acting exactly like how he described the Democrats were acting in 2016. When he signed up for the job, there was always the possibility of losing re-election, that’s just the way it goes. He’s upset that the votes didn’t go his way, but what he has failed to do is thank all the people who actually supported him during his campaign and, quite frankly, I don’t think he gives a damn about them and, thankfully, it shows. He has all the markings of a lame duck and will have to accept the reality that he’s no long commander-in-chief.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Daverz on November 12, 2020, 01:11:40 PM
     It doesn't say both halves have to think the same way. It's a belief one half has about the other. It could be true that both halves are symmetrical in believing the worst about each other, but it's not a necessary condition.

Ah, yeah, sorry, reading comprehension fail there.  I'm glad you guys caught it.  ;)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Zeus on November 12, 2020, 02:03:35 PM
Is this total spending or only govt spending?
If the healthcare spending decreases in a subsequent year, does the mark still proceed rightward or retreat leftward?

That's gotta be total health care spending.  And, since time is not given its own axis, any line could move backwards in any given year.  Interestingly, most lines progress upward and to the right fairly smoothly from year to year.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 12, 2020, 03:05:56 PM

     The Pope just congratulated Biden for stealing the election.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 12, 2020, 05:22:24 PM
doesn't sound very papal, somehow.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 12, 2020, 06:36:16 PM

     As Trump stews over election, he mostly ignores the public duties of the presidency (https://www.washingtonpost.com/)

     Excuse please, I am new here, what is public duty of your President? I only know golf and tweet.

It was Biden who offered the first public condolences to the families of the service members who died in Egypt. “I join all Americans in honoring their sacrifice, as I keep their loved ones in my prayers,” he wrote on Twitter in the early afternoon Thursday.

By that time, Trump had issued nearly four dozen critical tweets and retweets about the election results and Fox News, including a baseless conspiracy theory from a far-right television network that alleged votes had been improperly tallied in Pennsylvania. He also found time to thank actor Scott Baio for posting a photo of a craft store’s candle display, which had been arranged to spell out, “Trump is still your president.”

“Thank you Scott, and stay tuned. You are terrific!” Trump wrote.


     I will stay tuned, too. This is a wonderful country.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: flyingdutchman on November 12, 2020, 09:13:27 PM
Donald lost. Good for the United States and the world.

Now begins Joe's effort to work with a Senate that will hopefully be 50-50, but I don't expect it to turn that way. That said, I just sent money to Ossoff and Warnock with hopes they can pull it off.

No doubt, the Dems need to find new leadership in the House. Time for Nancy to step back.

In the end, I point you to loser.com (http://loser.com)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: flyingdutchman on November 12, 2020, 09:19:35 PM
Stay tuned, Gurn. This election was like no other due to the vote by mail ballots being shipped out everywhere. Clearly a Dem strategy to win.

That Penn St postal worker has denied he recanted and has been suspended without pay for not staying quiet about the power grab. 

Biden may wind up as president but let the process work itself out. I do take heart in the GOP gains in the house and the chance to have 52 senate seats. At the very least the nutty left wing agenda won’t come to fruition.

When January 5 comes and the vote is taken, don't be surprised if the Dems pull it out. Believe me, black and brown votes, along with progressive voters like me won't be voting red.  Atlanta is coming out in force for the Dems.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: flyingdutchman on November 12, 2020, 09:23:13 PM
When it does come to governance, I think Joe will outmaneuver McConnell and focus on those things that can bring people together and put Moscow Mitch into a corner. In the end, Mitch will look like the power hog that he is and Joe and the Dems will look like the saviors of our democracy that they are. After all, it isn't hard to bring back a sense of sanity when the inmates (Donald Trump and his sycophants) have been running the asylum.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 12, 2020, 11:37:56 PM
When it does come to governance, I think Joe will outmaneuver McConnell and focus on those things that can bring people together and put Moscow Mitch into a corner. In the end, Mitch will look like the power hog that he is and Joe and the Dems will look like the saviors of our democracy that they are. After all, it isn't hard to bring back a sense of sanity when the inmates (Donald Trump and his sycophants) have been running the asylum.

I'm not that optimistic.

If the Rs keep the Senate majority they will obstruct all legislation.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 13, 2020, 03:07:53 AM
If the Rs keep the Senate majority they will obstruct all legislation.

No they won't.

They are happy to advance Republican legislation. Only if the Dems try to do something RADICAL/SOCIALIST such as give more people healthcare would they need to obstruct obviously.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Daverz on November 13, 2020, 03:22:07 AM
No they won't.

They are happy to advance Republican legislation. Only if the Dems try to do something RADICAL/SOCIALIST such as give more people healthcare would they need to obstruct obviously.

I can't imagine any agreement on any consequential legislation with McConnell in charge. 

Here's a roundup of articles on things that Biden can do without a Democratic Senate:

https://prospect.org/day-one-agenda/election-executive-actions-democratic-presidency/

Discussion with the author, David Dayen:

https://www.youtube.com/v/4WWRF3skZfQ?t=1380
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 13, 2020, 03:25:55 AM
There were in fact incidents of voter intimidation. Are you sure you want to try to laugh it off?

There were in fact incidents of ballot fraud. Were they carefully planned, systematically executed and so widespread and massive as to really rig the elections? Of course not. The same goes for voter intimidation. Actually I'm sure that this is not the first presidential elections where both isnignifcant ballot fraud and insignificant voter intimidation occured.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: BasilValentine on November 13, 2020, 03:54:52 AM
     Even if we gave him maximum credit for effort, Trump isn't a dictator. He's simply not up to it. To be fair, it would be difficult for anyone. Democratic states are designed to be deep enough to withstand assault by autocrats. It's not just a matter of form, it's how form and practice are fused. As an economist might say, the Constitution in the US is largely a "post facto identity", a compact to formalize a path already taken.

Of course he's not a dictator any more than he was a successful businessman or a great president. Those were just roles he played on TV, the former apparently successfully enough to entertain the clueless, the latter quite poorly one must say, since he got cancelled after the first season for perpetually low ratings. His current mimicking of authoritarian behavior is a screen test for one of the two roles he's currently up for, that of American dictator. The only other role on offer is con man and career criminal harried by the AG of New York, the criminal division of the IRS, and former victims launching libel suits. He already has that role down and doesn't like the inevitable final episode. So he's going for the other part. From watching those he admires who've made a success of it, Trump knows winning the role of dictator requires certain actions: co-opting the Justice Department, corrupting the courts, silencing dissenting bureaucrats, removing those in the Pentagon and defense department unwilling to use troops against US citizens, and so on. Is he serious about it? He's as serious about it as the world encourages him to be. He's just seeing if anyone finds him believable in the role. If the screen test goes well he will be perfectly happy to become president for life. On the plus side he's a sociopath who would have no problem jailing and killing opponents. On the minus side he's not too bright, he's lazy, and he's a coward. How is he doing so far? His base likes the act, the press is taking him fairly seriously, and lots of people on the left have their panties in knots over it, so he's encouraged and emboldened. Joe Biden is reacting exactly as we all should — rolling his eyes and dismissing it as too absurd even for reality TV.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Que on November 13, 2020, 04:30:25 AM
Reminder:
Response to the content of a post: yes
Personally directed comment: no.

Q
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 13, 2020, 07:29:31 AM

     ‘Milk Him Like a Cow’: Russian State Media Mulls How to Take Advantage of Trump Before He’s Gone (https://www.thedailybeast.com/russian-state-media-mulls-how-to-take-advantage-of-trump-before-he-leaves-office?ref=home)

In an interview with Russian tabloid Komsomolskaya Pravda, the historian Valery Garbuzov, director of the Institute of U.S. and Canadian Studies at the Russian Academy of Sciences, pointed out: “Trump has played a cruel joke on Russian political elites. In 2016, Russia placed a bet on Trump. I don’t know what our top officials were thinking. But they made a major miscalculation... It’s time for our elites to sober up...”

     State TV in Russia is almost as bad as it is in the US, where opinions are advanced that are nearly impossible for a sentient being to hold.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 13, 2020, 08:22:59 AM
I just play a President on TV

The more interesting questions are why Pfizer opted to front its own costs when the federal spigot was open, and why it raced to distance itself from Operation Warp Speed once the clinical trial findings were released. For answers to those questions, we have to review the long, sad tale of the Trump administration’s mishandling of the COVID-19 crisis over the past nine months.

Except for brief interludes, President Trump more or less fumbled pandemic policy and communications from the get-go. In service of his re-election campaign, he sought to downplay the seriousness of the threat. He has encouraged resistance to public health measures like masking and business lockdowns, leading to huge, rotating disease spikes first in the South and more recently in the Midwest. His overheated rhetoric against social distancing and restrictions on business (“Liberate Michigan!”) culminated in FBI-thwarted plots to kidnap the governors of Michigan and Virginia. Finally, his resolute refusal to adhere to, or allow those around him to adhere to, basic disease mitigation practices resulted in a mini-epidemic for the first family and dozens of members of his administration. Back in August, even Mitch McConnell started avoiding a White House that looked every day more like a scene from The Hot Zone (https://thebulwark.com/pfizers-art-of-the-deal/)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 13, 2020, 08:40:15 AM
I just play a President on TV

The more interesting questions are why Pfizer opted to front its own costs when the federal spigot was open, and why it raced to distance itself from Operation Warp Speed once the clinical trial findings were released. For answers to those questions, we have to review the long, sad tale of the Trump administration’s mishandling of the COVID-19 crisis over the past nine months.

Except for brief interludes, President Trump more or less fumbled pandemic policy and communications from the get-go. In service of his re-election campaign, he sought to downplay the seriousness of the threat. He has encouraged resistance to public health measures like masking and business lockdowns, leading to huge, rotating disease spikes first in the South and more recently in the Midwest. His overheated rhetoric against social distancing and restrictions on business (“Liberate Michigan!”) culminated in FBI-thwarted plots to kidnap the governors of Michigan and Virginia. Finally, his resolute refusal to adhere to, or allow those around him to adhere to, basic disease mitigation practices resulted in a mini-epidemic for the first family and dozens of members of his administration. Back in August, even Mitch McConnell started avoiding a White House that looked every day more like a scene from The Hot Zone (https://thebulwark.com/pfizers-art-of-the-deal/)

The stable genius is denial and he simply can’t deal with the fact that he has been wrong since day one about COVID. I’ll be honest when I heard he got COVID himself I felt bad for him, then I realized it was a political hoax to downplay the severity of the virus. Given he’s in his mid-70s now and sleeps only around 3-4 hours a night (by his own admission), it’s nothing short than miraculous that he got over COVID in a few days. And yet, he still doesn’t wear a mask. Unbelievable. Irresponsible. Inhumane. That’s our president. :-[
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 13, 2020, 08:50:02 AM

     Symptoms of mental difficulty manifest at The Bulwark.

These countries are left with few options to improve their budget balances and stabilize their public-debt ratios. Any attempt at belt-tightening when their economies are still weak would risk deepening the recession, which would  hardly reduce their debt-to-GDP ratio.

     Split these sentences to derive any meaning they might have.

These countries are left with few options to improve their budget balances and stabilize their public-debt ratios

     Countries should improve their budget balances and stabilize their public-debt ratios.

Any attempt at belt-tightening when their economies are still weak would risk deepening the recession, which would  hardly reduce their debt-to-GDP ratio.

     Oh, so......in order to reduce public debt-to-GDP we must do something that would hardly reduce debt-to-GDP.

     Let's review. We must do something that can't work in order to prevent the tragedy of doing something that does work, keeping the economy on life support until it can stop being dead and people can return to jobs.

     Budget balances and debt-to-GDP are measures, not goals. Goals are what happens in the economy. That's where "shoulds" are, not the numbers that occur while you're "shoulding".
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: flyingdutchman on November 14, 2020, 02:19:17 AM
So, Trump's final gambit is to try and convince GOP majority legislators in PA, AZ, MI, and WI to toss the will of the people and select Trump electors.  https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-win-fantasy-electors-bid-053422014.html
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 14, 2020, 03:51:27 AM
The best thing that could happen to the GOP is to get rid of Trump and go for a solid reboot.

This would also allow for some spectacular make-overs for Cruz and Graham, who will be happy, once Trump's embroiled in multiple lawsuits, to claim they never liked him.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 14, 2020, 05:42:06 AM
The best thing that could happen to the GOP is to get rid of Trump and go for a solid reboot.

The GOP could dump it's corporate donors and religious lunatics and became the left wing party for regular people advocating things like medicare for all, New Green Deal, tuition free education etc. AOC & co. would join it and then the US would have a left wing party (rebooted Republicans) and a right wing party (corporate Dems).
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 14, 2020, 05:49:54 AM
The best thing that could happen to the GOP is to get rid of Trump and go for a solid reboot.


The actual election results demonstrate otherwise.  In the midst of pandemic and depression, it was Democrats who underperformed and Republicans who did better than expected.  A "solid reboot" is the worst possible advice.  Republicans know this.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Zeus on November 14, 2020, 06:55:55 AM
The Trump brand is damaged.  Rather than a wily outsider, Trump is now an unhinged loser. 

He will help the Dems immensely.  I wish him many years in the spotlight – on OANN and Parler.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 14, 2020, 06:59:52 AM

The actual election results demonstrate otherwise.  In the midst of pandemic and depression, it was Democrats who underperformed and Republicans who did better than expected.  A "solid reboot" is the worst possible advice.  Republicans know this.

In order to actually benefit from the pandemic and depression, the Dems should have fiercely advocated medicare for all, living wage, UBI, etc., but corporate Dems don't believe in those things so they did not. They believe in their own political career and corporate donor money. Only progressives advocated those things and what you know, they all got easily re-elected and new progressives got also elected while some corporate Dems struggled and even lost their election.

The Republicans are just a party, a bunch of power-hungry filthy rich and priviledged individuals. Who cares what's good for them? What is good for millions and millions of regular not so priviledged Americans? That's what I am after.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 14, 2020, 07:07:11 AM
The Republicans are just a party, a bunch of power-hungry filthy rich and priviledged individuals. Who cares what's good for them? What is good for millions and millions of regular not so priviledged Americans? That's what I am after.


When it comes to American politics and policy, what Republicans want matter.  What non-Americans want does not matter.  In real world terms.

Republicans have already adjusted their national office game - hence a record number of Republican women being elected and increases in Cuban and Mexican turnout in key states - and will continue to do so.  Expect right wing populism and nationalism to remain, though in new forms tailored to each state.

And it's not too soon to start thinking about 2024 hopefuls. 
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 14, 2020, 07:09:18 AM
Aside from a few news stories about how dictatorial Don attempted to do nefarious things to the census, there's been very little news about the results in state level races and what that means for House and Electoral College apportionment.  For sort of good reason.  Republicans picked up the Montana governorship and New Hampshire legislature.  Democrats underperformed at the state level and lost those two states.  (Good job Dems!)  So no big changes.  This means that the battle lines are set for the post-census apportionment battles.  With a high probability that Florida officially overtakes New York in electoral vote count, and Texas perhaps increasing its allotment, that means two large Republican run states could gerrymander 2024 back to the GOP.  I don't know election law in those two states, so perhaps the legislatures and governors will be effectively constrained in carving up their states along partisan lines.

Of course, this is all moot if there is a groundswell of support for eliminating the Electoral College.  This time is different, etc.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: milk on November 14, 2020, 07:20:50 AM

The actual election results demonstrate otherwise.  In the midst of pandemic and depression, it was Democrats who underperformed and Republicans who did better than expected.  A "solid reboot" is the worst possible advice.  Republicans know this.
And with groups of people who were considered a lock for Democrats. I don't think Dems will get the right message from this, i.e. that it's them who should reboot: dump identity politics and all that mess of applied post-modernism, critical theory, woke politics, etc. The people that broke late in the election broke for Trump. It's pretty scary to me that Trump almost won. I actually like Biden more and more these days but I know what's coming after him and it ain't good.   
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 14, 2020, 07:24:09 AM

When it comes to American politics and policy, what Republicans want matter.  What non-Americans want does not matter.  In real world terms.

Republicans have already adjusted their national office game - hence a record number of Republican women being elected and increases in Cuban and Mexican turnout in key states - and will continue to do so.  Expect right wing populism and nationalism to remain, though in new forms tailored to each state.

And it's not too soon to start thinking about 2024 hopefuls.

I have not claimed what I want matters. I want things regardless of whether they mattered or not because I am a human being and human beings are known to want things.

Expect huge social unrest in your country (we already saw a glimbse of it with BLM protests), because the current political system is unsustainable. I come from a country that is considered the most stable society in the World, so I might have insight into what makes a society stable, but then again, my views just don't matter...
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 14, 2020, 07:32:45 AM
I don't think Dems will get the right message from this, i.e. that it's them who should reboot: dump identity politics and all that mess of applied post-modernism, critical theory, woke politics, etc.

It's a safe bet Dems won't learn.  Mainstream news outlets are already touting the idea that Biden will immediately try to roll back some or all of DeVos' policy changes, for instance, which, while minor on its face, has implications down the line.  I would think coming in that Biden should focus on Covid, the economic impact of Covid, and (because it's what he has always supported not because it is what should happen) rebuilding international relationships with traditional allies.  The other stuff is all negotiable.  Of course, that could be how he and his senior advisors see it, too, so we will see in January. 


Expect huge social unrest in your country (we already saw a glimbse of it), because the current political system is unsustainable.

Social unrest is a common occurrence in the US.  The various 2020 brouhahas paled in comparison to more tumultuous times - '68, the 30s, entire blobs of years from 1873 to 1917 - so I fret not about such things. 


I have not claimed what I want matters. I want things regardless of whether they mattered or not because I am a human being and human beings are known to want things.

I want a banana.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 14, 2020, 07:41:37 AM
And with groups of people who were considered a lock for Democrats. I don't think Dems will get the right message from this, i.e. that it's them who should reboot: dump identity politics and all that mess of applied post-modernism, critical theory, woke politics, etc. The people that broke late in the election broke for Trump. It's pretty scary to me that Trump almost won. I actually like Biden more and more these days but I know what's coming after him and it ain't good.   

Yes, the identity politics stuff isn't "winning" in the same way economical populism is, but corporate Dems must serve their donors or the flow of money stops so they can't adopt economical populism. Solution: Vote corporate Dems out and progressive Dems in. That's actually what's happening, but it is a painfully slow process...
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 14, 2020, 07:47:53 AM
Solution: Vote corporate Dems out and progressive Dems in.


This is the inverse of the solution.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 14, 2020, 07:57:40 AM
1) Social unrest is a common occurrence in the US.  The various 2020 brouhahas paled in comparison to more tumultuous times - '68, the 30s, entire blobs of years from 1873 to 1917 - so I fret not about such things. 

2) I want a banana.

1) That's why I said we have seen a glimpse of what's coming. Up to 30 million Americans are in danger of getting evicted. We can only hope the amount of evictions turns out to be much less than that because some 10 % of Americans being homeless makes George Floyd protests look like child's play.

2) Trump almost managed to turn the US a banana-republic so your wishes almost came true...
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 14, 2020, 08:03:17 AM
1) That's why I said we have seen a glimse of what's coming.


If you are going to underline a word, you may want to spell it properly.

Also, you may want to check your sources on eviction figures.  They are detached from reality.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 14, 2020, 08:03:39 AM

This is the inverse of the solution.

Your goal is completely different from my goal so our solutions are very different. My solution is not a solution to your goal because I don't want your goal. I want my goal and to my goal my solution is a solution.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 14, 2020, 08:04:43 AM
I want my goal and to my goal my solution is a solution.


Incorrect.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 14, 2020, 08:24:42 AM

1) If you are going to underline a word, you may want to spell it properly.

2) Also, you may want to check your sources on eviction figures.  They are detached from reality.

1) You saw a glimpse of my laziness to use spell check, but at least it gave you an opportunity to attack my English skills instead of the substance.

2) I checked and it turned out it's actually 30-40 million Americans at risk:

https://www.aspeninstitute.org/blog-posts/the-covid-19-eviction-crisis-an-estimated-30-40-million-people-in-america-are-at-risk/

Then again, The Aspen Institute could be detached from reality...  :P
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 14, 2020, 08:45:09 AM
     I Covered Congressional Races in Florida in 2018, and Boy Do I Know Why Trump Won the State in 2020 (https://www.thedailybeast.com/i-covered-congressional-races-in-florida-in-2018-and-boy-do-i-know-why-trump-won-the-state-in-2020?ref=home)

In a piece titled What the Hell Happened to Democrats in Miami-Dade?, Rolling Stone observed ruefully that “Miami-Dade is considered safe—until election night, when suddenly it’s not,” and quoted Maria Elena Lopez, first vice-chair of the Miami-Dade Democrats.

Lopez lamented how the Democratic National Convention did not talk to, fund, or advise the local parties. “We don’t get any feedback from the DNC,” she said. “They don’t come to us and say, ‘Hey, what is the messaging that would work in your community? Where are we weak?’ [The party] doesn’t do that, at all. We are on our own.”

“Unfortunately, this is not the first time that we’ve seen this,” she said. It was not the first time I had seen it either.


     Dems lost local elections because the national party didn't invest in them. Multiculturalism is a fact for Dems, and a theory to cover that fact. As practice, though, Dems haven't learned how to work out the kinks in places like Miami-Dade. Local failures in Florida look a lot like Clinton failures in 2016.

     Too much emphasis is put on the ideological makeup of the Dems, understandably so as people wanting good things progressively makes an easily digestible story while people wanting them centrally doesn't. Dems are the party of "everyone else", and that dictates how they should fight at the local level.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 14, 2020, 08:45:28 AM
1) You saw a glimpse of my laziness to use spell check, but at least it gave you an opportunity to attack my English skills instead of the substance.

Incorrect.

2) I checked and it turned out it's actually 30-40 million Americans at risk:

https://www.aspeninstitute.org/blog-posts/the-covid-19-eviction-crisis-an-estimated-30-40-million-people-in-america-are-at-risk/

Then again, The Aspen Institute could be detached from reality...  :P

It is.  Property owners are concerned with cash flow, and empty properties generate no cash flow.  Also, politicians from both parties would never allow something on such a scale, as is already in evidence with various state and municipal level eviction moratoria. 
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on November 14, 2020, 08:50:43 AM
And with groups of people who were considered a lock for Democrats. I don't think Dems will get the right message from this, i.e. that it's them who should reboot: dump identity politics and all that mess of applied post-modernism, critical theory, woke politics, etc. The people that broke late in the election broke for Trump. It's pretty scary to me that Trump almost won. I actually like Biden more and more these days but I know what's coming after him and it ain't good.   

Excellent points.
For instance, see https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/republicans-2020-gains-in-the-house-set-them-up-well-for-2022/
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 14, 2020, 09:17:34 AM
And with groups of people who were considered a lock for Democrats. I don't think Dems will get the right message from this, i.e. that it's them who should reboot: dump identity politics and all that mess of applied post-modernism, critical theory, woke politics, etc. The people that broke late in the election broke for Trump. It's pretty scary to me that Trump almost won. I actually like Biden more and more these days but I know what's coming after him and it ain't good.   

     I think that's a rear view mirror take. Post modern critical wokesters are not where we're going, and none of the Dem candidates represented their ideas as well as the conservative media that is so fascinated by them.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 14, 2020, 10:02:04 AM
Excellent points.
For instance, see https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/republicans-2020-gains-in-the-house-set-them-up-well-for-2022/

If the hard left forgets/fails to digest that it was the appeal to the center which put Biden in the White House, and fail to put pragmatism over "purity" they're just going to feed the Trumpism beast.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 14, 2020, 10:02:57 AM
     I think that's a rear view mirror take. Post modern critical wokesters are not where we're going, and none of the Dem candidates represented their ideas as well as the conservative media that is so fascinated by them.

This is, dare I say, right.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 14, 2020, 12:30:14 PM
If the hard left forgets/fails to digest that it was the appeal to the center which put Biden in the White House, and fail to put pragmatism over "purity" they're just going to feed the Trumpism beast.

Amen. I've been fearing that for 2-3 years now. It was reading Pujo's posts that got me in that frame of mind, I must say. :-\

8)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 14, 2020, 01:20:25 PM
and the other (rearview) mirror thing is, if Biden c.s. had hoped to flip Florida, he should have spent more time there, like the woman in the article says.

That day Biden went to Texas because it seemed like Texas could be flipped (as if) was maybe not a day well-spent.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 14, 2020, 01:31:49 PM
and the other (rearview) mirror thing is, if Biden c.s. had hoped to flip Florida, he should have spent more time there, like the woman in the article says.

That day Biden went to Texas because it seemed like Texas could be flipped (as if) was maybe not a day well-spent.


Dead on.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 14, 2020, 01:32:55 PM
David Brooks: Dictators around the world are delighted to see an American President refusing to accept the election results.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 14, 2020, 01:36:16 PM
On PBS Newshour Brooks, whom I am not a fan of, was saying the takeaway was that the Dems should stop thinking demographic changes in America will automatically soon deliver them endless victories.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: MusicTurner on November 14, 2020, 01:41:20 PM
More now on the #45 / Russia story, but sketchy - further top secret intelligence exists, former FBI chief Andrew McCabe says - but that sources had to be protected ...

"There is some very, very serious, very specific, undeniable intelligence that has not come out, that if it were released, would risk compromising our access to that sort of information in the future. I think it would also risk casting the president in a very negative light - so, would he have a motivation to release those things? "

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-fbi-secret-intelligence-russia-b1722964.html



Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Daverz on November 14, 2020, 01:43:10 PM
If the hard left forgets/fails to digest that it was the appeal to the center which put Biden in the White House, and fail to put pragmatism over "purity" they're just going to feed the Trumpism beast.

What "hard left" policies are you guys afraid of?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 14, 2020, 01:51:59 PM
On PBS Newshour Brooks, whom I am not a fan of, was saying the takeaway was that the Dems should stop thinking demographic changes in America will automatically soon deliver them endless victories.

Which harmonizes with, among other things, your comment viz. Florida.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 14, 2020, 02:14:10 PM
If the hard left forgets/fails to digest that it was the appeal to the center which put Biden in the White House, and fail to put pragmatism over "purity" they're just going to feed the Trumpism beast.

During Obama's 8 years in White House the Dems lost over 1000 seats "appealing to the center" so EMPIRICAL evidence tells us appealing to the center is not working. Regular people don't like corporate Dems and corporate Dems hate their voters. Regular people strugging to pay the bills and in danger of going bankrupt if they get ill don't want corruption and enless enrichment of insurance companies, military industry complex etc. Biden won because Trump is insanely bad. This was an anti-Trump election. Like Kyle Kulinski says, a rusty bucket filled with vomit would have won Trump. Since this election was this close, Biden is not much better than a rusty bucket filled with vomit, practically a moderate Republican who is against medicare for all in the middle of a pandemic while 80-90 % of Democratic base is for medicare for all. If Biden was campaigning for the economic populism he could have won over 400 electoral votes.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 14, 2020, 02:16:36 PM
During Obama's 8 years in White House the Dems lost over 1000 seats "appealing to the center" so EMPIRICAL evidence tells us appealing to the center is not working.

Incorrect.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 14, 2020, 02:19:03 PM
After such a rough and tumble campaign that caused so much insomnia and nail biting and general distress, one needs some feel-good stories:

A Democratic defeat in victory: If Joe Biden’s party cannot wrest power from the Republicans now, when ever will it? (https://www.economist.com/united-states/2020/11/14/a-democratic-defeat-in-victory)

Republicans Are On Track To Take Back The House In 2022 (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/republicans-2020-gains-in-the-house-set-them-up-well-for-2022/)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 14, 2020, 02:29:07 PM
What "hard left" policies are you guys afraid of?

     Yes, and I think you could also question the "appeal to the center". Does the center want almost good health care, half an economic program, some infrastructure and some not infrastructure? The halfway economic recovery after the GFC did great damage to the prosperity of working class Americans. When the economy fails, there is a search for culprits.

     A centrist appeal is not advocacy for a distinct set of programs. The appeal announces an attitude that's flexible and willingness to compromise and trade. It could be a promise to demons to refrain from demonization and allow them to maintain a human form. They like that.

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: JBS on November 14, 2020, 02:34:15 PM
During Obama's 8 years in White House the Dems lost over 1000 seats "appealing to the center" so EMPIRICAL evidence tells us appealing to the center is not working. Regular people don't like corporate Dems and corporate Dems hate their voters. Regular people strugging to pay the bills and in danger of going bankrupt if they get ill don't want corruption and enless enrichment of insurance companies, military industry complex etc. Biden won because Trump is insanely bad. This was an anti-Trump election. Like Kyle Kulinski says, a rusty bucket filled with vomit would have won Trump. Since this election was this close, Biden is not much better than a rusty bucket filled with vomit, practically a moderate Republican who is against medicare for all in the middle of a pandemic while 80-90 % of Democratic base is for medicare for all. If Biden was campaigning for the economic populism he could have won over 400 electoral votes.

1)The Right wing party won those seats.
2) There was a candidate who campaigned on economic populism. He got slightly more than 70 million people who thought he was serious.  But he came in second to the guy you think is a moderate Republican.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 14, 2020, 03:16:32 PM
1)The Right wing party won those seats.
2) There was a candidate who campaigned on economic populism. He got slightly more than 70 million people who thought he was serious.  But he came in second to the guy you think is a moderate Republican.


     In order to succeed Dems have to enact programs that can rebuild the economy. For decades neglect has lowered US income from where it would have been if full output and employment had been the goal. The recovery from the GFC was a little more than half the typical recovery in the post war period.

     The most centrist thing Obama ever did was agree with Mitch on running out of dollars for the recovery. Not only wouldn't we spend dollars to boost the economy, we would "not have" them! Just imagine if Trump, Mitch, Nancy and Chuck all got together to tell Americans that not only would no dollars be spent to counter the pandemic crash, but that there weren't any to have, no spending or having either! Fortunately for the country we spent trillions of dollars this time without bothering much about not having them first, and just had them after we spent them.

     
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 15, 2020, 02:15:19 AM
1)The Right wing party won those seats.
2) There was a candidate who campaigned on economic populism. He got slightly more than 70 million people who thought he was serious.  But he came in second to the guy you think is a moderate Republican.

1) Yes, because of social issues. Most Americans are (often without them realizing it themselves because of badly known labels) left-leaning on economic issues. About 2/3 of Americans support medicare for all. About 4/5 of Americans support $15 living wage and so on... If you support left-leaning economic policies you are left-leaning on those issues regardless of how much you identify yourself as right-leaning/Republican because of you family background or opinions about social issues or whatever reason. You might identify as a Republican because you are pro-life, even if you ALSO support many left-leaning policies. Corporate media misleading people in regards of labels and fearmongering about the left doesn't help. So lets see:

The Republicans offer social conservatism
The Democrats offer social liberalism
Neither of them offer economical populism

So, if you are into social conservatism AND economical populism, the Republicans offer you social conservatism while the Democrats offer you nothing. So, you vote for the Republicans even if you support medicare for all and living wage.

2) Because the corporate media kept fearmongering about Bernie and telling Biden is "most electable." Democratic voters really wanted Trump out, so many of them went behind the "safe bet", even when they politically agree with Bernie (80-90 % of democratic voters support medicare for all). According to Kyle Kulinski Bernie would have got a little bit more electoral votes than Biden. Bernie would have lost Arizona, which Biden won, but Bernie would have won some other states Biden lost such as Iowa and even Texas. Biden struggled with minorities while Bernie would have done better etc. There simply never was factual base for the claims that Biden is most electable. At best he is as electable as Bernie.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 15, 2020, 02:34:19 AM
What "hard left" policies are you guys afraid of?

Well, everybody having healthcare is a very scary thought! People not going bankrupt because of medical bills? So horrible! Everybody having equal change in life regardless of background thanks to tuition free education? Horror! People enjoying the same standard of living than people in Nordic countries? So scary! They are only some of the happiest countries in the world! Being happy must be so horrible, worse then hell! They pay so much public taxes! Only paying public taxes is bad. Paying privite taxes is nothing even when insurance companies deny care because of whatever excuse. If people had acne 10 years ago they deserve to be denied care and die away! That way CEOs make more money and can buy more yachts! That's the most important thing in society! Rich getting richer! Nothing else matters! That's why left policies are so scary! According to them maximazing the happiness among all people matters! What a lunatic idea! Poor should SUFFER!!! IT'S YOUR FAULT you were born in poor family and didn't inherit 400 million from your dad! You should have chosen your parents better!
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 15, 2020, 03:15:39 AM
I know what you mean, but really "Nordic" as a designation has a somewhat unfortunate history of late 19th century race ideology bleeding over into Nazism, and it doesn't help when it is suggested that the way "Nordic" people do things is superior.

Why not just say Scandinavian?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 15, 2020, 03:16:40 AM
Economic devide between Democratic and Republican voters got bigger: Pro-Biden counties make up 70% of the US economy
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 15, 2020, 03:32:46 AM
I know what you mean, but really "Nordic" as a designation has a somewhat unfortunate history of late 19th century race ideology bleeding over into Nazism, and it doesn't help when it is suggested that the way "Nordic" people do things is superior.

Why not just say Scandinavian?

Because Finland is not part of Scandinavia ( =Sweden, Norway and Denmark). There is "extented Scandinavia" called Fennoscandia (or Fenno-Scandinavia) which includes Finland but also parts of Russia. Despite of historical connotations, the term Nordic countries means Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden and is therefor a precise collection of North European countries where social democratic policies have been very successful making them good models for other countries to "copy."
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: MusicTurner on November 15, 2020, 03:41:07 AM
This is a very old debate, what to include in the Scandinavian region, and not with a definitive answer. In many countries or everyday use, Finland and Iceland are included in the term, especially English-speaking countries. This also comprises, for example, really major travel guides like the Lonely Planet and Rough Guides.

"Nordic" as a term doesn't generally have unfortunate associations in the region locally,  however - only the Nazi ideology and its racist followers, such as the new Nordic Resistance Movement, have misused it; there's a 'Nordic Council' organization between the governments, for example, and long-lived ideas for a new 'Nordic Union' project.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 15, 2020, 04:24:47 AM
This is a very old debate, what to include in the Scandinavian region, and not with a definitive answer. In many countries or everyday use, Finland and Iceland are included in the term, especially English-speaking countries. This also comprises, for example, really major travel guides like the Lonely Planet and Rough Guides.

Well, in Finland Scandinavia is thought to include countries with Scandinavian languages: Swedish, Norwegian and Danish. Since Finnish language has hardly anything to do with those languages, Finns don't generally consider being part of Scandinavian countries, but part of Fennoscandia and Nordic countries.

Scandinavia: Denmark, Norway and Sweden. Defined by Scandinavian languages.
Fennoscandia: Norway, Sweden, Finland and parts of Russia next to Finland. Defined geologically (peninsula)
Nordic countries: Island, Norway, Denmark, Sweden and Finland. Defined culturally and politically.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: ritter on November 15, 2020, 04:31:13 AM
From a Mediterranean perspective, the term “Hyperborean” seems the best... :D
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 15, 2020, 04:49:02 AM
From a Mediterranean perspective, the term “Hyperborean” seems the best... :D

You are having Tangerine Dreams if you have such perspective.  ;)

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 15, 2020, 04:53:26 AM
Scandinavia: Denmark, Norway and Sweden. Defined by Scandinavian languages.
Fennoscandia: Norway, Sweden, Finland and parts of Russia next to Finland. Defined geologically (peninsula)
Nordic countries: Island, Norway, Denmark, Sweden and Finland. Defined culturally and politically.

One learns something every day
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 15, 2020, 05:06:28 AM
One learns something every day

I hope so. Apparently for example the Northern parts of Mexico are considered part of North America. I had always thought the USA + Canada = North America.  :-X
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on November 15, 2020, 06:35:57 AM
Did Cheeto just tweet an official concession?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-15/trump-tweets-that-biden-won-election-says-vote-was-rigged
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 15, 2020, 06:50:33 AM
Did Cheeto just tweet an official concession?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-15/trump-tweets-that-biden-won-election-says-vote-was-rigged
Perhaps.....before recanting it!  ::)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on November 15, 2020, 06:56:36 AM
Perhaps.....before recanting it!  ::)
Yes. Shoulda known.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-15/trump-acts-defeated-while-still-insisting-he-beat-joe-biden
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 15, 2020, 07:03:00 AM
Yes. Shoulda known.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-15/trump-acts-defeated-while-still-insisting-he-beat-joe-biden
What do you think that the chances are that he'll have to be escorted out of the White House?  I suspect that he'll start packing on December 15th (the day after the electors meet)....or maybe just after Christmas?

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 15, 2020, 07:07:50 AM
He sure is busy golfing.

Golfing and tweeting.

Other than that, nothing.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Daverz on November 15, 2020, 07:29:27 AM
What do you think that the chances are that he'll have to be escorted out of the White House?  I suspect that he'll start packing on December 15th (the day after the electors meet)....or maybe just after Christmas?

PD

Probably not until Congress certifies the electoral votes on January 6.  He'll resign, and then Pence will be sworn in as POTUS so that he can pardon Trump. 
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 15, 2020, 08:13:18 AM
Probably not until Congress certifies the electoral votes on January 6.  He'll resign, and then Pence will be sworn in as POTUS so that he can pardon Trump.
Oh, God, I hope that it doesn't get dragged out that long!

And I hope that Pres. Trump doesn't try and go to that extreme!  It would also be an admission of guilt--which he's never admitted any wrong-doing.  Looking up presidential pardon, according to one website:

"Presidential Pardon Rules and Procedures

The rules and procedures for seeking and receiving a pardon are contained in the Code of Federal Regulations (Title 28, Chapter 1, Part 1). Anyone who wishes to apply for clemency at the federal level must follow the rules and file a petition with the Department of Justice (specifically, the Office of the Pardon Attorney).

The Pardon Attorney and their staff review petitions for clemency (either for a pardon or a commutation), conduct investigations, and prepare recommendations for the President. While the guilt or innocence of the petitioner isn't considered (i.e. the conviction stands), the decision to grant clemency generally rests on the following factors:

Post-conviction conduct, character, and reputation;
Seriousness of the offense;
*Acceptance of responsibility, remorse, and atonement;
Need for relief; and
Official recommendations and reports.
Although there are formal procedures and guidelines in place for a presidential pardon or commutation, the President is not bound by these rules and may issue clemency in accordance with the powers granted by the Constitution."

*I can't see this happening, can you?  And I'm not even going into some of the other factors!  ::)

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 15, 2020, 08:13:42 AM
He'll resign, and then Pence will be sworn in as POTUS so that he can pardon Trump.

Every time people talk about Biden as #46 I think, 47 is the more likely number, due to the pardon-necessitated switcheroo.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Daverz on November 15, 2020, 08:16:06 AM
"[snip] Although there are formal procedures and guidelines in place for a presidential pardon or commutation, the President is not bound by these rules and may issue clemency in accordance with the powers granted by the Constitution."

*I can't see this happening, can you?

Oh, absolutely. 
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 15, 2020, 08:21:32 AM
Oh, absolutely.
The article also mentions that asking for a pardon is also, basically, an admission of guilt.  Would Pres. Trump be willing to do that...thinking of all of his denials and ego?  And would VP Pence be willing to go so low too?  Or would he try and justify it in his head that the Dems are just on a witch hunt?

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on November 15, 2020, 08:27:10 AM
What do you think that the chances are that he'll have to be escorted out of the White House?  I suspect that he'll start packing on December 15th (the day after the electors meet)....or maybe just after Christmas?

PD
Take into account that I (a) absolutely loathe Cheeto Mussolini; (b) am inclined to pessimism, but...

I expect CM to attempt to monkey with the Electoral College and seek to have electors change their votes.
See for instance
https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/14/opinions/the-electoral-college-is-not-going-to-give-trump-a-second-term/index.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/11/12/could-electoral-college-be-stolen-biden/   (I can't read this due to paywall)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 15, 2020, 08:32:12 AM
Back in 2016, various people placed faith in faithless electors throwing the election to Hillary.  They did not.  I should like to understand how this time is somehow different.

I also wonder what actual con law experts say about the pardon clause and what is possible.  Last I read, actual experts are divided on what Trump can do or may need to do.

And for apparent techno newbies, use a Chrome incognito session if you really want to read AmPo stories for free.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 15, 2020, 08:48:34 AM
And would VP Pence be willing to go so low too?


No question.

If asked to justify, he'd cleverly say the USA is no banana republic, where former presidents etc are thrown in the slammer.

In that way he'd follow standard GOP procedure of projection.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 15, 2020, 11:50:16 AM
Take into account that I (a) absolutely loathe Cheeto Mussolini; (b) am inclined to pessimism, but...

I expect CM to attempt to monkey with the Electoral College and seek to have electors change their votes.
See for instance
https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/14/opinions/the-electoral-college-is-not-going-to-give-trump-a-second-term/index.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/11/12/could-electoral-college-be-stolen-biden/   (I can't read this due to paywall)
Thanks for the links; I was able to read the CNN one.  Not particularly surprised (maybe a bit) how often both parties have tried to sway the electors, but the upshot of the CNN article is--not likely to sway enough to make a difference...the numbers are normally very few.

Do you think that Pres. Trump would try and go so far as to resign and try and get a presidential pardon?



I also wonder what actual con law experts say about the pardon clause and what is possible.  Last I read, actual experts are divided on what Trump can do or may need to do.

Do you (or anyone else here) have any suggestions as to who are some good law experts to check out?

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 15, 2020, 11:52:17 AM
Do you (or anyone else here) have any suggestions as to who are some good law experts to check out?


I do not.  I eagerly await seeing the experts others on this forum rely on.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Daverz on November 15, 2020, 01:19:28 PM
No question.

If asked to justify, he'd cleverly say the USA is no banana republic, where former presidents etc are thrown in the slammer.

In that way he'd follow standard GOP procedure of projection.

A pardon would be spun as thwarting the inevitable demoncrap witch hunt against Trump.  Take that, libtards!  It would also ensure Pence's place on the wingnut welfare gravy train.  But maybe Trump will try to cut out the middleman and pardon himself.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 15, 2020, 02:51:53 PM
A pardon would be spun as thwarting the inevitable demoncrap witch hunt against Trump.  Take that, libtards!  It would also ensure Pence's place on the wingnut welfare gravy train.  But maybe Trump will try to cut out the middleman and pardon himself.
My gut level feeling (even though it's unchartered waters) is that it would declared unlawful (so I would prefer that he take this route--if at all).  Others here?  Agree/disagree? Thoughts, comments and/or questions.

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 15, 2020, 02:56:50 PM
The GOP  has a long track record of spinelessness over Trump's crimes, so don't expect them to grow a spine now.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on November 15, 2020, 02:58:36 PM
My gut level feeling (even though it's unchartered waters) is that it would declared unlawful (so I would prefer that he take this route--if at all).  Others here?  Agree/disagree? Thoughts, comments and/or questions.

PD
I'm no lawyer.
For much of my adult life, Laurence Tribe (Harvard) has been the most-cited Constitutional expert. GOP surely thinks he's a libtard, though.
https://www.msnbc.com/the-reidout/watch/laurence-tribe-explains-how-trump-probably-can-t-pardon-himself-95895109662
He said there's no precedent, but there's a well-known 410-year-old British ruling that one can't act as one's own judge.
Clip is too short to be conclusive. Perhaps a possibility of Pence giving the pardon?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on November 15, 2020, 03:05:21 PM
Thanks for the links; I was able to read the CNN one.  Not particularly surprised (maybe a bit) how often both parties have tried to sway the electors, but the upshot of the CNN article is--not likely to sway enough to make a difference...the numbers are normally very few.
...

Here's a fairly detailed analysis
https://www.lawfareblog.com/how-hard-it-overturn-american-election
Concludes that the elector gambit is unlikely.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 15, 2020, 03:20:45 PM
I'm no lawyer.
For much of my adult life, Laurence Tribe (Harvard) has been the most-cited Constitutional expert. GOP surely thinks he's a libtard, though.
https://www.msnbc.com/the-reidout/watch/laurence-tribe-explains-how-trump-probably-can-t-pardon-himself-95895109662
He said there's no precedent, but there's a well-known 410-year-old British ruling that one can't act as one's own judge.
Clip is too short to be conclusive. Perhaps a possibility of Pence giving the pardon?
Thank you for mentioning him and the link.  One thing that kills me is that he could pardon family members.  And before Todd brings this up, yes, I know that Bill Clinton pardoned his half-brother...which I don't think is/was proper either.  Also, in terms of differences (to be fair), Pres. Trump had (still has) family members advising him in official duties at the White House (though unpaid).

Anyway, off to start on dinner.  Take care,

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 15, 2020, 03:50:02 PM
And before Todd brings this up, yes, I know that Bill Clinton pardoned his half-brother...which I don't think is/was proper either.


Whether or not it was or is "proper", whatever that means, it is constitutional.  That is literally the only thing that matters.  The Constitution itself sets the only limitation as cases of impeachment. 

No one knows whether a president can pardon him- or herself, because it has never been done, and no applicable case law exists. Hence the interest in finding out the Notorious ACB's stance on the subject during her hearings.  If Trump pardoned himself, it would be unprecedented, and may end up before SCOTUS.  Anyone who pretends that he or she knows the answers here is simply lying.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 15, 2020, 04:10:10 PM

Whether or not it was or is "proper", whatever that means, it is constitutional.  That is literally the only thing that matters.  The Constitution itself sets the only limitation as cases of impeachment. 

No one knows whether a president can pardon him- or herself, because it has never been done, and no applicable case law exists. Hence the interest in finding out the Notorious ACB's stance on the subject during her hearings.  If Trump pardoned himself, it would be unprecedented, and may end up before SCOTUS.  Anyone who pretends that he or she knows the answers here is simply lying.
Re your first point:  I know that, but I still don't think that it's right...maybe time to make some changes?  I do realize that it won't happen in the immediate future and would require a lot of legal thought/work/voting (demand?) by the populace that this matter be addressed?  I don't know, but it's something to look into in my view.  Do you agree?  Seriously, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter as well as others here.

I don't think that it's a case of "pretending that he or she knows", but am curious as to others who specialize in constitutional law ...what their thoughts are and why.  I'm quite curious--and interested.  :)

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 15, 2020, 04:20:53 PM
Do you agree?


The pardon power exists in its current form for a variety of reasons, including the fact that people are unfairly prosecuted and have been under all legal systems, at all times, in all places, and the inclusion in the Constitution was a very wise choice.  The general population cares less about this than the Electoral College, and neither will change anytime soon, if ever.  The pardon power is less likely to be changed because presidents of all parties in the history of the republic have used it, and today both Democrat and Republican presidents use it for political purposes - and sometimes they even use it to achieve a degree of justice.  The power is an essential one.


I don't think that it's a case of "pretending that he or she knows", but am curious as to others who specialize in constitutional law ...what their thoughts are and why.  I'm quite curious--and interested.


They do not know, either.  Mr Tribe, a definite scholar on the subject, is also ideologically inclined and can offer only one outlook - and one that will almost certainly not sway SCOTUS as a whole if they must decide one the matter.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: MusicTurner on November 16, 2020, 01:19:31 AM
The Princeton professor Werner Mueller's current article on 'de-Trumpification' has been reprinted in many newspapers world-wide.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/truth-commissions-to-investigate-trump-and-democratic-vulnerabilities-by-jan-werner-mueller-2020-11
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: vandermolen on November 16, 2020, 02:37:25 AM
The Princeton professor Werner Mueller's current article on 'de-Trumpification' has been reprinted in many newspapers world-wide.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/truth-commissions-to-investigate-trump-and-democratic-vulnerabilities-by-jan-werner-mueller-2020-11
Interesting article. Thanks for posting it.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: ritter on November 16, 2020, 03:02:12 AM

Whether or not it was or is "proper", whatever that means, it is constitutional.  That is literally the only thing that matters.  The Constitution itself sets the only limitation as cases of impeachment. 

No one knows whether a president can pardon him- or herself, because it has never been done, and no applicable case law exists. Hence the interest in finding out the Notorious ACB's stance on the subject during her hearings.  If Trump pardoned himself, it would be unprecedented, and may end up before SCOTUS.  Anyone who pretends that he or she knows the answers here is simply lying.
What from a foreign perspective is hard to understand is a "blanket" pardon being hypothetically granted by the current POTUS to himself (or by his successor in the--even more hypothetical--case he abruptly resigns and the current VP becomes POTUS). In other legal systems where the pardon exists as a prerogative of the executive, the pardon has to be granted for an act that has been prosecuted and resulted in a conviction. "Preemptive pardons" are not contemplated to the best of my knowledge, as these would be equivalent to granting immunity from prosecution (which is a step that would require the passing of a law). And, AFAIK, the current POTUS has not been convicted of any crime.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 16, 2020, 03:11:50 AM

The pardon power exists in its current form for a variety of reasons, including the fact that people are unfairly prosecuted and have been under all legal systems, at all times, in all places, and the inclusion in the Constitution was a very wise choice.  The general population cares less about this than the Electoral College, and neither will change anytime soon, if ever.  The pardon power is less likely to be changed because presidents of all parties in the history of the republic have used it, and today both Democrat and Republican presidents use it for political purposes - and sometimes they even use it to achieve a degree of justice.  The power is an essential one.
Yes, I agree that it is essential, but maybe there is another course of action to take?  What about coming up with some further guidelines/restrictions/procedures for judging who should be eligible and why?  Just some thoughts.  :)

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 16, 2020, 03:12:53 AM
Interesting article. Thanks for posting it.
+1 A lot of food for thought!
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 16, 2020, 05:02:52 AM
ME: "In less than 10 weeks Trump has left the White House and Biden is inaugurated. The boring corporate status quo nothing-will-fundamentally-change presidency starts for the next four years. Time to finally tune out of (American) politics after four exhausting years."

DAVID PAKMAN: "This is NOT the Time to Tune Out of Politics"

https://www.youtube.com/v/g_KIOiwsBbg
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 16, 2020, 05:32:57 AM
And, AFAIK, the current POTUS has not been convicted of any crime.


There is already precedent for a president pardoning a former president.  Ford granted Nixon a full and unconditional pardon for crimes Nixon may have committed.  Perhaps Trump extends that to a president pardoning him- or herself.  Could be fun.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: ritter on November 16, 2020, 06:04:55 AM

There is already precedent for a president pardoning a former president.  Ford granted Nixon a full and unconditional pardon for crimes Nixon may have committed.  Perhaps Trump extends that to a president pardoning him- or herself.  Could be fun.
Indeed. I was aware of that Ford pardon of Nixon, but it still strikes me (as a foreigner) as odd: as you say, the pardon was for crimes Nixon "may have committed", not for any actual convictions.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 16, 2020, 06:11:22 AM
Indeed. I was aware of that Ford pardon of Nixon, but it still strikes me (as a foreigner) as odd: as you say, the pardon was for crimes Nixon "may have committed", not for any actual convictions.


Correct.  I believe the whole Watergate scandal was a long national nightmare, or some such, and Ford put an end to it.  Nice guy.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: JBS on November 16, 2020, 06:38:33 AM
Indeed. I was aware of that Ford pardon of Nixon, but it still strikes me (as a foreigner) as odd: as you say, the pardon was for crimes Nixon "may have committed", not for any actual convictions.

But Nixon's acceptance of the pardon was, at least in the legal sense, an admission that he has committed crimes which needed a pardon.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 16, 2020, 06:44:50 AM
The most likely turn-of-events will be that Trump steps down in December, Pounds will be a one-month president, just to pardon Trump and the Trumpkins, which won't make a lotta difference since there are state charges, too.

And then Biden will be #47.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 16, 2020, 06:54:41 AM
The most likely turn-of-events will be that Trump steps down in December, Pounds will be a one-month president, just to pardon Trump and the Trumpkins, which won't make a lotta difference since there are state charges, too.

And then Biden will be #47.


It was also all but certain that Trump would steal the election.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 16, 2020, 07:13:00 AM
    Trump can't be the judge in his own case. That's the essence of the argument Tribe and others make in a WaPo article.

Self-pardon under this rubric is impossible. The foundational case in the Anglo-American legal tradition is Thomas Bonham v. College of Physicians, commonly known as Dr. Bonham’s Case. In 1610, the Court of Common Pleas determined that the College of Physicians could not act as a court and a litigant in the same case. The college’s royal charter had given it the authority to punish individuals who practiced without a license. However, the court held that it was impermissible for the college to receive a fine that it had the power to inflict: “One cannot be Judge and attorney for any of the parties.”

The Constitution embodies this broad precept against self-dealing in its rule that congressional pay increases cannot take effect during the Congress that enacted them, in its prohibition against using official power to gain favors from foreign states and even in its provision that the chief justice, not the vice president, is to preside when the Senate conducts an impeachment trial of the president.


      Self pardon will be found unconstitutional if a case reaches the court. Until then the proper analogy should govern predictions, and the law doesn't have one for lawful self judgment.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 16, 2020, 07:27:07 AM
    Trump can't be the judge in his own case. That's the essence of the argument Tribe and others make in a WaPo article.

Not even if he had the least jurisprudential credibility.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 16, 2020, 07:29:39 AM

It was also all but certain that Trump would steal the election.

     He did what he could. Most people thought he would fail. It looks like he failed. It was more like a "stolen election week" than a stolen election.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 16, 2020, 09:55:54 AM

     Trump's mind's on his money and his money's on his mind.

     (https://media.upworthy.mattersmedia.io/brand-img/00xmhL6-r/480x252/gettyimages-132834537-1591796747526.jpg)


Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 16, 2020, 10:07:48 AM
     He did what he could. Most people thought he would fail. It looks like he failed. It was more like a "stolen election week" than a stolen election.

And look at all the Republicans acknowledging the results.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 16, 2020, 10:10:13 AM
How the Toddler-in-Chief Failed to Steal the Election (https://podcast.thebulwark.com/how-the-toddler-in-chief-failed-to-steal-the-election)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 16, 2020, 10:27:07 AM
But Nixon's acceptance of the pardon was, at least in the legal sense, an admission that he has committed crimes which needed a pardon.

     The next AG will probably let nature take its course on prosecuting Trump. It would be crazy to do otherwise. There's a lot more long national nightmare to come.

     A news person guy says:

President-elect Joe Biden has said his Justice Department would be totally independent and that he wouldn’t tell the Justice Department whom to prosecute. But he's also said in an August interview that prosecuting a former president would be “probably not very good for democracy.”

     Biden wants to play by the old rules so they will still be the rules. The rules were followed so long because Presidents, even Nixon, recognized some limits on how far they were willing to go. Trump was only limited by his incompetence and failure to distinguish a trial balloon from a real world coup. Perhaps he thought he could inspire a kind of "meet the leader in the middle" uprising. I'll suggest that no bright line exists to distinguish the real from the fake in this regard. As the numbers grow "this is no dream! this is really happening!" takes over.

     (https://i.pinimg.com/originals/89/4e/3f/894e3fd5ceecddcaafdc84a26f1d6193.jpg)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 16, 2020, 10:50:40 AM

It was also all but certain that Trump would steal the election.

Well, you can't say he did not try.

Nobody can beat your prediction of a Biden landslide.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 16, 2020, 11:12:03 AM
Well, you can't say he did not try.


     Trump put too much deniability into his effort. We know how Trump hedges risk to his reputation. If it didn't work he didn't do it.

     So, who among the Trump offspring "has his father's eyes"?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 16, 2020, 11:57:37 AM
How the Toddler-in-Chief Failed to Steal the Election (https://podcast.thebulwark.com/how-the-toddler-in-chief-failed-to-steal-the-election)

"Conning supporters, but not actually affecting results."
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on November 16, 2020, 12:08:29 PM
"Conning supporters, but not actually affecting results."

Not just your typical Cheeto Mussolini tantrum, but a strategy that has been planned for years:

https://news.yahoo.com/behind-trumps-yearslong-effort-turn-132056603.html
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 16, 2020, 12:17:40 PM
Trump should go retire to Israel and write his memoirs.

IT WOULD BE THE FIRST EVER MEMOIRS WRITTEN ALL CAPS.  :P
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on November 16, 2020, 12:30:39 PM
IT WOULD BE THE FIRST EVER MEMOIRS WRITTEN ALL CAPS.  :P

It'd of course be ghostwritten, but no doubt the ghost writer would throw in lots of caps for verisimilitude.  :laugh:

Would bookshops file the, uh, product (trying to restrain myself) under "Fiction" or "Memoirs"?  :D
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 16, 2020, 12:36:25 PM
It'd of course be ghostwritten, but no doubt the ghost writer would throw in lots of caps for verisimilitude.  :laugh:

Yeah, it must be written by a GHOSTWRITER.

Would bookshops file the, uh, product (trying to restrain myself) under "Fiction" or "Memoirs"?  :D

It should be filed under "Delusions."
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 16, 2020, 01:54:54 PM
The Princeton professor Werner Mueller's current article on 'de-Trumpification' has been reprinted in many newspapers world-wide.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/truth-commissions-to-investigate-trump-and-democratic-vulnerabilities-by-jan-werner-mueller-2020-11

Good piece.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 16, 2020, 02:51:12 PM
Breaking news:  Pres. Trump wants to withdraw more troops from Afghanistan and Iraq--against the advice of top military officers.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/pentagon-prepares-for-trump-order-to-withdraw-troops-from-afghanistan-iraq/ar-BB1b45YL

Just heard the news on CNN

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: (: premont :) on November 16, 2020, 03:20:28 PM
Breaking news:  Pres. Trump wants to withdraw more troops from Afghanistan and Iraq--against the advice of top military officers.

He has never listened to the expertise. And as predicted, he wants to create chaos in his lame (Donald) duck period to make things as difficult as possible for Biden. Apparently he neither cares about his legacy nor the USA.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 16, 2020, 03:40:19 PM
He has never listened to the expertise. And as predicted, he wants to create chaos in his lame (Donald) duck period to make things as difficult as possible for Biden. Apparently he neither cares about his legacy nor the USA.

Take a look at his recent Twitter postings--even just today.  At this point I'm wondering if he's truly delusional.  I don't know, premont, perhaps he's thinking that he's fulfilling promises made?  And that Americans who have military family overseas there will welcome his actions and come and support him?  I honestly don't know at this point whether or not he's trying ' to make things as difficult as possible for Biden'.  I suspect that in his mind, he can't conceive of the fact that maybe Americans chose Biden and weren't happy with how he was doing as president.  I do think though that he cares about his legacy.  I'm neither a psychologist nor a psychiatrist though.

In any event, sleep well.  I'm off to fix dinner.

Best wishes,

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 16, 2020, 03:51:01 PM
He has never listened to the expertise. And as predicted, he wants to create chaos in his lame (Donald) duck period to make things as difficult as possible for Biden. Apparently he neither cares about his legacy nor the USA.

And, of course, he's interested in preserving no one's life but his own.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 16, 2020, 04:06:55 PM
He has never listened to the expertise. And as predicted, he wants to create chaos in his lame (Donald) duck period to make things as difficult as possible for Biden. Apparently he neither cares about his legacy nor the USA.

     The military has no doubt tried to tell Trump that our peace partners will attack our troops as they leave the country. Withdrawal must be carefully planned. Trump is not interested.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 16, 2020, 04:13:40 PM
     The military has no doubt tried to tell Trump that our peace partners will attack our troops as they leave the country. Withdrawal must be carefully planned. Trump is not interested.

He ain't much for planning.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 16, 2020, 04:14:23 PM
President-elect Joe Biden is expected to take a historic step and select a woman to head the Pentagon for the first time. (Source AP politics)

The difference between the Republicans and the (corporate) Democrats:
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 16, 2020, 04:15:34 PM
     The military has no doubt tried to tell Trump that our peace partners will attack our troops as they leave the country. Withdrawal must be carefully planned. Trump is not interested.
That's what I was talking and worried about.

But what do you think of my earlier comments (about his mental state of health)?

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: (: premont :) on November 16, 2020, 04:25:18 PM
One of his sentences is "America first".
What he means is "Trump first".
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 16, 2020, 04:51:22 PM
Well, you can't say he did not try.

Despite what has been written on GMG, he did not try. 


Nobody can beat your prediction of a Biden landslide.

I did not predict a landslide.  I raised it as a possibility based on what a lot of very smart press sorts and pollster sorts - and Dems - stated would happen.  I did predict a Democrat sweep, while picking up seats in the House.  I will confess that I am pleasantly surprised that the Dems displayed even greater incompetence than expected.  The election result has been very satisfying.


Breaking news:  Pres. Trump wants to withdraw more troops from Afghanistan and Iraq--against the advice of top military officers.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/pentagon-prepares-for-trump-order-to-withdraw-troops-from-afghanistan-iraq/ar-BB1b45YL


Good. 
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 16, 2020, 07:24:12 PM

     Trying to steal an election while accusing the opponent of stealing of stealing the election is a try, however poorly executed.

     Trump doesn't actually want to do the work of being a President, so it should not be surprising that he can't be bothered learning how to be a tyrant. Tyrants don't have the attention span of a mayfly.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 16, 2020, 07:34:21 PM


But what do you think of my earlier comments (about his mental state of health)?

PD

     What Trump cares about is money, not going to prison, money, not being perceived as a loser, and money. If I didn't mention money enough I'll put it in here.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 16, 2020, 07:42:22 PM


     (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=30359.0;attach=68749;image)

     I was born in 1949, around the time these planes were designed. Honor is due. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: milk on November 16, 2020, 09:20:46 PM
     Trying to steal an election while accusing the opponent of stealing of stealing the election is a try, however poorly executed.

     Trump doesn't actually want to do the work of being a President, so it should not be surprising that he can't be bothered learning how to be a tyrant. Tyrants don't have the attention span of a mayfly.
I can’t get into the broken pinball machine of trump’s mind but I have a family member who buys into this meshugas about Biden stealing the election. It’s interesting in the the case of this person because I’ve seen her go from voting for Biden in the Dem primary to the tinfoil-hat position - a pretty quick turnaround. I’m fascinated with cults and this is very close to the same kind of thing. If she had just become (more or less) conservative I would have no trouble engaging with her; I’m interested in different points of view. But this is not about ideas and there’s no good logic to this. It’s a cult. She’s actually said to her parents that she needs a break from communicating with them because she thinks they’re brainwashed (by accepting the MSM reporting that Biden won). Her social media posts have declined in quality and become darker and sillier. She keeps threatening to quit Facebook but she gets almost no likes or comments there anyway. It’s sad to me that the Republican Party sticks with this kind of (lack of) reasoning. I don’t know what’s worse: the cynical encouragement of conspiratorial and weak thinking in order to raise campaign dough and increase/maintain power, the actual belief in horse-sh%t nonsense, or what’s on the other side:
Which brings me to the other side of planet America: Honestly, I’ve never thought of voting for a Republican but I can, at least, understand those that broke late for trump in order to thumb their noses at the wacky positions of Dems. Pace the “woke” left that thinks sex (male/female) is not real, that trumpets (no pun) defunding the police, that interjects race/critical race theory/intersectionality into all discussions, that see’s “western culture” only in terms of “white supremacy” and abandons King’s dream of a society where race doesn’t matter (or exist!), that blows up extremely boutique cultural-political questions, like transsexuality, into major societal problems, cancel culture, cultural appropriation,  etc. etc.
I wonder if you could say almost the exact thing about the left’s own eccentric religious dogma as the right’s: that there are people adopting an ideology, a set of opinions (like a religion) including that gender isn’t real (but homosexuality is, paradoxically, genetic - a reason more gay males voted trump?) that society’s resources and institutions should be reorganized according to racial identity/hierarchies, that systems of rights, checks and balances, processes in law and in journalism should be abandoned (#believe all women?), de-platform, cancel, that western liberalism is ultimately evil, etc. etc.     
I think most or many liberals accept these positions like religious dogma but I wonder if the Kamala Harris types are, much like the republican establishment vis a vis denialism, also invoking woke-ness as a kind of religious dogma.
Anyway, sorry about my long rant. But I come back to this: how the person in my family get to this weird place? She went from anti-vaccinations to anti-mask/COVID to MAGA-land - quite a leap but maybe small steps leading in one direction.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: BasilValentine on November 16, 2020, 09:27:39 PM
Despite what has been written on GMG, he did not try. 

"Despite what has been written on GMG, he did not try" very hard or demonstrate any competence at what he attempted. There, now it's true.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: milk on November 16, 2020, 10:44:53 PM
I wonder if the Kamala Harris types are, much like the republican establishment vis a vis denialism, also invoking woke-ness as a kind of religious dogma.
Sorry, I meant to say Kamala is cynical: using wokeness as a way to generate support and cash while selling out the left’s economic agenda to moneyed interests of all sorts.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 16, 2020, 11:52:00 PM
I can’t get into the broken pinball machine of trump’s mind but I have a family member who buys into this meshugas about Biden stealing the election. It’s interesting in the the case of this person because I’ve seen her go from voting for Biden in the Dem primary to the tinfoil-hat position - a pretty quick turnaround. I’m fascinated with cults and this is very close to the same kind of thing. If she had just become (more or less) conservative I would have no trouble engaging with her; I’m interested in different points of view. But this is not about ideas and there’s no good logic to this. It’s a cult. She’s actually said to her parents that she needs a break from communicating with them because she thinks they’re brainwashed (by accepting the MSM reporting that Biden won). Her social media posts have declined in quality and become darker and sillier. She keeps threatening to quit Facebook but she gets almost no likes or comments there anyway. It’s sad to me that the Republican Party sticks with this kind of (lack of) reasoning. I don’t know what’s worse: the cynical encouragement of conspiratorial and weak thinking in order to raise campaign dough and increase/maintain power, the actual belief in horse-sh%t nonsense, or what’s on the other side:
Which brings me to the other side of planet America: Honestly, I’ve never thought of voting for a Republican but I can, at least, understand those that broke late for trump in order to thumb their noses at the wacky positions of Dems. Pace the “woke” left that thinks sex (male/female) is not real, that trumpets (no pun) defunding the police, that interjects race/critical race theory/intersectionality into all discussions, that see’s “western culture” only in terms of “white supremacy” and abandons King’s dream of a society where race doesn’t matter (or exist!), that blows up extremely boutique cultural-political questions, like transsexuality, into major societal problems, cancel culture, cultural appropriation,  etc. etc.
I wonder if you could say almost the exact thing about the left’s own eccentric religious dogma as the right’s: that there are people adopting an ideology, a set of opinions (like a religion) including that gender isn’t real (but homosexuality is, paradoxically, genetic - a reason more gay males voted trump?) that society’s resources and institutions should be reorganized according to racial identity/hierarchies, that systems of rights, checks and balances, processes in law and in journalism should be abandoned (#believe all women?), de-platform, cancel, that western liberalism is ultimately evil, etc. etc.     
I think most or many liberals accept these positions like religious dogma but I wonder if the Kamala Harris types are, much like the republican establishment vis a vis denialism, also invoking woke-ness as a kind of religious dogma.
Anyway, sorry about my long rant. But I come back to this: how the person in my family get to this weird place? She went from anti-vaccinations to anti-mask/COVID to MAGA-land - quite a leap but maybe small steps leading in one direction.

     On an investment site where I contribute final wisdom I discuss the phenomenon of the "herd of contrarians". They are all having secret knowledge "the mainstream media won't tell you". Why is this not funny?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: milk on November 17, 2020, 12:28:16 AM
     On an investment site where I contribute final wisdom I discuss the phenomenon of the "herd of contrarians". They are all having secret knowledge "the mainstream media won't tell you". Why is this not funny?
it’s definitely ironic and amusing. But it’s a little sad in the case of my family member. It’s impossible to reach her. If she were young, I’d say she could pull herself out some day. But she just “woke up” to this now in her 50s. It’s a cult. They can’t be argued out of it. Did you see that article today about a nurse dealing with COVID patients in South Dakota? They’re sick and still won’t believe it’s real.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Que on November 17, 2020, 12:40:55 AM
Did you see that article today about a nurse dealing with COVID patients in South Dakota? They’re sick and still won’t believe it’s real.

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/526204-south-dakota-nurse-says-many-dying-patients-still-insist-covid-19-not#

Scary Medieval superstition stuff...  ???

Q
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 17, 2020, 01:48:54 AM
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/526204-south-dakota-nurse-says-many-dying-patients-still-insist-covid-19-not#

Scary Medieval superstition stuff...  ???

Q

What a way to go...
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 17, 2020, 03:54:51 AM
Good.

If you think Trump wanting to withdraw troops from Afghanistan and Iraq is good, then you must disagree with the Republicans in general wanting to keep troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. You can't have it both ways, can you?

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 17, 2020, 04:07:06 AM
They’re sick and still won’t believe it’s real.

All of this madness makes me feel Covid-19 is nature's solution to deal with climate change: Kill the ignorant low IQ individuals who think climate change is a Chinese hoax away so mankind can wise up and start dealing with the reality. Too bad we educated more intelligent people (I have believed in climate change for over 30 years) have to also suffer from the situation, but seems like the nature has had it with these fools...  :-\
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 17, 2020, 04:36:43 AM

Which brings me to the other side of planet America: Honestly, I’ve never thought of voting for a Republican but I can, at least, understand those that broke late for trump in order to thumb their noses at the wacky positions of Dems. Pace the “woke” left that thinks sex (male/female) is not real, that trumpets (no pun) defunding the police, that interjects race/critical race theory/intersectionality into all discussions, that see’s “western culture” only in terms of “white supremacy” and abandons King’s dream of a society where race doesn’t matter (or exist!), that blows up extremely boutique cultural-political questions, like transsexuality, into major societal problems, cancel culture, cultural appropriation,  etc. etc.
I wonder if you could say almost the exact thing about the left’s own eccentric religious dogma as the right’s: that there are people adopting an ideology, a set of opinions (like a religion) including that gender isn’t real (but homosexuality is, paradoxically, genetic - a reason more gay males voted trump?) that society’s resources and institutions should be reorganized according to racial identity/hierarchies, that systems of rights, checks and balances, processes in law and in journalism should be abandoned (#believe all women?), de-platform, cancel, that western liberalism is ultimately evil, etc. etc.     
I think most or many liberals accept these positions like religious dogma but I wonder if the Kamala Harris types are, much like the republican establishment vis a vis denialism, also invoking woke-ness as a kind of religious dogma.

Only a part of the "left" is "woke". Their leftism is about cultural war. This is convenient if you are someone wanting ot uphold economical status quo. It's easy for Disney to put black gays and women instead of white men in movies, but they are not so eager to improve the working  conditions for their workers, because that's economical stuff.

How much do I talk about woke stuff? Hardly at all. I keep talking about medicare for all, tuition free education, ending the wars etc. The economical stuff that the establishment is never supporting, because it's against their interests. The less corrupt the Dems become (when more progressives get elected) the more the Dems can talk about economical populism instead of cultural war stuff.

Anyway, the systemic racism in police must be dealth with ant de-funding is the answer. The funds should be directed to better training etc. That should be a no-brainer to anyone who is not a racist.

Nobody says sex doesn't exist. Biological gender is different from mental stuff. Are we supposed to oppress women to the end of time just because they are women? Are we supposed to oppress black people just because they are black? Nobody says gender of skin color doesn't exist.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 17, 2020, 05:45:31 AM
"Despite what has been written on GMG, he did not try" very hard or demonstrate any competence at what he attempted. There, now it's true.

Despite what has been written on GMG, he did not try.


If you think Trump wanting to withdraw troops from Afghanistan and Iraq is good, then you must disagree with the Republicans in general wanting to keep troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. You can't have it both ways, can you?

Your question makes no sense.  The US should withdraw troops from Afghanistan and Iraq.  And Syria.  And all the various African countries where the US operates.  To start.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 17, 2020, 07:00:41 AM
Actually, do we have the final, certified results in all 50 states or are votes still being counted? I reckon that by now they should have all finished counting all the votes yet apparently this is not the case.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: arpeggio on November 17, 2020, 07:04:50 AM
When I looked at the election results of the 2016 election I saw a definite divide between rural and urban America.  Of the fifty most populated cities in the US only seven voted for Trump:
Virginia Beach, VA
Jacksonville, FL
Arlington, TX
Tulsa, OK
Oklahoma City, OK
Phoenix and Mesa, AZ (Both in Maricopa County)

In 2020 the divide is even worse.  Only two of the above cities voted for Trump: Oklahoma City and Tulsa.

I am very concerned about this divide in our society.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 17, 2020, 07:12:53 AM
When I looked at the election results of the 2016 election I saw a definite divide between rural and urban America.  Of the fifty most populated cities in the US only seven voted for Trump:
Virginia Beach, VA
Jacksonville, FL
Arlington, TX
Tulsa, OK
Oklahoma City, OK
Phoenix and Mesa, AZ (Both in Maricopa County)

In 2020 the divide is even worse.  Only two of the above cities voted for Trump: Oklahoma City and Tulsa.

I am very concerned about this divide in our society.

If this is any consolation, the same divide is apparent in Romania, only reversed: big cities and large towns vote mostly right-of-center while small towns and rural areas vote mostly left-of-center. There is also a geographical divide along North-South and West-East lines, in the same sense.  :D
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on November 17, 2020, 07:31:33 AM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-17/graham-denies-he-urged-mail-in-ballots-tossed-election-update
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: krummholz on November 17, 2020, 08:04:35 AM
And with groups of people who were considered a lock for Democrats. I don't think Dems will get the right message from this, i.e. that it's them who should reboot: dump identity politics and all that mess of applied post-modernism, critical theory, woke politics, etc. The people that broke late in the election broke for Trump. It's pretty scary to me that Trump almost won. I actually like Biden more and more these days but I know what's coming after him and it ain't good.   

At least one member of the Lincoln Project, Stuart Stevens (author of It Was All a Lie), has come all the way out and said basically F. U. to the GOP, that he will work within the Democratic Party to try to wrest control from the Far Left. Before this election I thought he was a fool to abandon the only major party in the country that could be in a position to oppose Leftism. Now I think he has the right idea, or more accurately, the ONLY idea that has a chance. The GOP, with or without Trump, is going to solidify around populist Nationalism. If the Dem Party cannot be returned to its 20th century roots, I'm afraid that we as a country are truly screwed.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 17, 2020, 08:08:58 AM
Sorry, I meant to say Kamala is cynical: using wokeness as a way to generate support and cash while selling out the left’s economic agenda to moneyed interests of all sorts.

Equating civil rights with "wokeness" is an error.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 17, 2020, 08:51:03 AM
Your question makes no sense.

I think it does make sense.

The US should withdraw troops from Afghanistan and Iraq.  And Syria.  And all the various African countries where the US operates.  To start.

Yes, I agree with this, but the Republicans and the (corporate) Democrats in general do NOT agree with this. Progressives agree with us. Trump seems to agree with us in this issue. So we can agree with Trump OR the Republicans. Not both.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 17, 2020, 09:00:43 AM
At least one member of the Lincoln Project, Stuart Stevens (author of It Was All a Lie), has come all the way out and said basically F. U. to the GOP, that he will work within the Democratic Party to try to wrest control from the Far Left. Before this election I thought he was a fool to abandon the only major party in the country that could be in a position to oppose Leftism. Now I think he has the right idea, or more accurately, the ONLY idea that has a chance. The GOP, with or without Trump, is going to solidify around populist Nationalism. If the Dem Party cannot be returned to its 20th century roots, I'm afraid that we as a country are truly screwed.

     The Lincoln Project did a great job of promoting the Lincoln Project. What Dem program should they oppose?

     I noticed something interesting among the NeverTrumpers. Once they cut their tribal affiliation they discovered that their reasons to oppose programs Dems favor didn't look so good. It's as though they felt free to make judgments on the basis of merit. It may not last, but I do appreciate the uniqueness of "free radicals" in the politisphere.

     Fighting Leftism among the Dems can be safely left to Dems. The Lincoln Project has no role in that.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 17, 2020, 10:00:10 AM
Who's gonno take Kamala Harris' Senate seat? Gavin Newsom will pick.
Bernie Sanders won the Democratic primary in California showing people over there want leftist social democratic policies.
By far the best pick for this reason is Ro Khanna. This is a huge opportunity for the left.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: AlberichUndHagen on November 17, 2020, 10:15:50 AM
All of this madness makes me feel Covid-19 is nature's solution to deal with climate change: Kill the ignorant low IQ individuals who think climate change is a Chinese hoax away so mankind can wise up and start dealing with the reality.

Darwinism in motion?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 17, 2020, 10:24:33 AM
Who's gonno take Kamala Harris' Senate seat? Gavin Newsom will pick.
Bernie Sanders won the Democratic primary in California showing people over there want leftist social democratic policies.
By far the best pick for this reason is Ro Khanna. This is a huge opportunity for the left.

BREAKING NEWS: Leftist policies favored in California.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 17, 2020, 10:26:03 AM
All of this madness makes me feel Covid-19 is nature's solution to deal with climate change: Kill the ignorant low IQ individuals who think climate change is a Chinese hoax away so mankind can wise up and start dealing with the reality. Too bad we educated more intelligent people (I have believed in climate change for over 30 years) have to also suffer from the situation, but seems like the nature has had it with these fools...  :-\

This is a bad look, friend. COVID does not discriminate on the basis of IQ.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 17, 2020, 10:34:16 AM
BREAKING NEWS: Leftist policies favored in California.
:laugh:
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Brewski on November 17, 2020, 10:35:40 AM
Interestingly, as of right now, you-know-who hasn't tweeted all day. Unusual, given his regular pattern.

--Bruce
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 17, 2020, 10:39:00 AM
Interestingly, as of right now, you-know-who hasn't tweeted all day. Unusual, given his regular pattern.

--Bruce
Wow!  Computer problems or arthritis?  :-\
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Brewski on November 17, 2020, 10:40:07 AM
Wow!  Computer problems or arthritis?  :-\

My guess: holed up in the White House and fuming over the state of things.

--Bruce
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: MusicTurner on November 17, 2020, 10:44:08 AM
Just for the record here, about another day at the office, #45 wanted to bomb Iranian nuclear facilities last Thursday, however top officials including Pence and Pompeo talked him from it

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-considered-attacking-iran-main-nuclear-site-2020-11?r=US&IR=T


Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 17, 2020, 10:44:39 AM
Computer problems or arthritis?  :-\

Art-of-the-deal-hritis.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 17, 2020, 10:46:23 AM
My guess: holed up in the White House and fuming over the state of things.

--Bruce
But isn't that when he likes to tweet the most?  ;)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Brewski on November 17, 2020, 10:49:45 AM
But isn't that when he likes to tweet the most?  ;)

Point.  ;D

--Bruce
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 17, 2020, 10:58:30 AM
Just for the record here, about another day at the office, #45 wanted to bomb Iranian nuclear facilities last Thursday, however top officials including Pence and Pompeo talked him from it

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-considered-attacking-iran-main-nuclear-site-2020-11?r=US&IR=T
???  >:(  :(
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 17, 2020, 11:10:22 AM
Just for the record here, about another day at the office, #45 wanted to bomb Iranian nuclear facilities last Thursday, however top officials including Pence and Pompeo talked him from it

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-considered-attacking-iran-main-nuclear-site-2020-11?r=US&IR=T
MT,

Breaking news on CNN:  apparently they are going ahead with dropping troop level numbers to 2,500 each in Afghanistan and Iraq by Jan. 15th.  Not certain how this news is different from earlier one?  More finalized?

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 17, 2020, 11:37:58 AM

     Only about 23% of Repubs support M4A. For a Bidenesque public option plan support rises to 47%. For a Marxist Communistic Socialist transgender plan support is a little lower.

     This is typical. People want the good stuff without the very bad no good label.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 17, 2020, 11:40:41 AM
MT,

Breaking news on CNN:  apparently they are going ahead with dropping troop level numbers to 2,500 each in Afghanistan and Iraq by Jan. 15th.  Not certain how this news is different from earlier one?  More finalized?

PD

    The lowest troop level that permits withdrawing troops to defend themselves is where we are now. That's what the military tried to explain to Trump.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 17, 2020, 12:03:08 PM
    The lowest troop level that permits withdrawing troops to defend themselves is where we are now. That's what the military tried to explain to Trump.
But also, the withdrawal (a full one) is supposed to be contingent upon the Taliban keeping up their end of the deal; which it doesn't appear that they are doing, so to put our troops at further risk of being attacked by having even less people there is crazy.

https://thehill.com/policy/defense/520303-trump-throws-curveball-on-afghan-troop-levels

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 17, 2020, 12:04:48 PM
     Only about 23% of Repubs support M4A. For a Bidenesque public option plan support rises to 47%. For a Marxist Communistic Socialist transgender plan support is a little lower.

     This is typical. People want the good stuff without the very bad no good label.

This varies between polls according to how single payer healthcare is being framed. Some polls purposedly try to frame single payer healthcare as scary as possible. In some other polls the framing is less scary (more honest) and the overall support is higher. At one poll at least half of Republicans supported Medicare for all. Also, lets face it: The Republicans in particular are sceptical about public option and medicare for all because right wing MSM keeps fearmongering about them non-stop. If single payer healthcare was talked about in the media honestly, it's support would be overhelming.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 17, 2020, 12:08:09 PM
Just for the record here, about another day at the office, #45 wanted to bomb Iranian nuclear facilities last Thursday, however top officials including Pence and Pompeo talked him from it

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-considered-attacking-iran-main-nuclear-site-2020-11?r=US&IR=T

Trump's overlords in Israel and Saudi-Arabia want war with Iran.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 17, 2020, 12:38:35 PM
Yes, I agree with this, but the Republicans and the (corporate) Democrats in general do NOT agree with this. Progressives agree with us. Trump seems to agree with us in this issue.

So?


So we can agree with Trump OR the Republicans. Not both.

Incorrect.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 17, 2020, 12:55:43 PM
This varies between polls according to how single payer healthcare is being framed. Some polls purposedly try to frame single payer healthcare as scary as possible. In some other polls the framing is less scary (more honest) and the overall support is higher. At one poll at least half of Republicans supported Medicare for all. Also, lets face it: The Republicans in particular are sceptical about public option and medicare for all because right wing MSM keeps fearmongering about them non-stop. If single payer healthcare was talked about in the media honestly, it's support would be overhelming.

     Certainly people can be influenced by diatribes about how radical it would be if people agreed with themselves about what they want. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: krummholz on November 17, 2020, 01:09:44 PM
     The Lincoln Project did a great job of promoting the Lincoln Project. What Dem program should they oppose?

     I noticed something interesting among the NeverTrumpers. Once they cut their tribal affiliation they discovered that their reasons to oppose programs Dems favor didn't look so good. It's as though they felt free to make judgments on the basis of merit. It may not last, but I do appreciate the uniqueness of "free radicals" in the politisphere.

     Fighting Leftism among the Dems can be safely left to Dems. The Lincoln Project has no role in that.

No one said that the Lincoln Project should get involved with Democratic Party politics. They are a collection of Republicans with a number of different points of view.

I said only that Stuart Stevens, a Lincoln Project member (founding member? not sure) may not have been the fool that I thought he was to jump ship from the GOP, as they are unlikely to abandon the nationalist, even nativist stance they have been leaning toward ever since Trump's hostile takeover of the party. Basically, Stevens said he was going to become a Dem, so it sounds like you shouldn't have a problem with his fighting Dem Leftism. ;)

As far as what Dem programs he might oppose, you would have to ask him. My top picks for now would be the Green New Deal (because powering our society entirely on renewable energy sources is not yet achievable, and may not even be desirable - e.g. consider the land use footprint for solar) and Medicare For All (on the basis of cost). But both are for the future, as neither will be an agenda item under the Biden administration.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 17, 2020, 01:18:16 PM
No one said that the Lincoln Project should get involved with Democratic Party politics. They are a collection of Republicans with a number of different points of view.

I said only that Stuart Stevens, a Lincoln Project member (founding member? not sure) may not have been the fool that I thought he was to jump ship from the GOP, as they are unlikely to abandon the nationalist, even nativist stance they have been leaning toward ever since Trump's hostile takeover of the party. Basically, Stevens said he was going to become a Dem, so it sounds like you shouldn't have a problem with his fighting Dem Leftism. ;)

As far as what Dem programs he might oppose, you would have to ask him. My top picks for now would be the Green New Deal (because powering our society entirely on renewable energy sources is not yet achievable, and may not even be desirable - e.g. consider the land use footprint for solar) and Medicare For All (on the basis of cost). But both are for the future, as neither will be an agenda item under the Biden administration.

     The Deal that is Green will arrive more gradually than I would like. That's unfortunate but it will be the case. The up front costs for renewable energy have been paid for some forms, now they pay for themselves. That's how it will work in the future for further steps like geothermal.

     
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: krummholz on November 17, 2020, 02:02:09 PM
     The Deal that is Green will arrive more gradually than I would like. That's unfortunate but it will be the case. The up front costs for renewable energy have been paid for some forms, now they pay for themselves. That's how it will work in the future for further steps like geothermal.

   

It's not just a question of cost. It's a question of available technology. We do not yet have the battery technology to make fully renewable energy a reality, given the fact that the main sources (solar and wind) are intermittent. As far as I know the technology to make geothermal a major part of the equation does not yet exist, either.

Then there is the land use footprint. I calculated a while back that at our current need for energy, to power the U.S. entirely on solar power would require devoting something close to 1% of the entire land area of the country to energy production. That may not sound like a lot, but it is at least a couple orders of magnitude larger than the land use footprint of fossil fuel extraction and production. And the land use footprint of wind is even worse.

Also, I don't think this country is ready to accept fully electric powered cars as the only widely available personal means of long distance travel. Americans have long been in love with "muscle cars", with fast acceleration, with the convenience of being able to go 300+ miles and then refuel in 5 minutes. I don't see that changing in my lifetime. Electric cars are fine for getting around town, but the average citizen is not going to want to use them for traveling to the cottage or favorite vacation spot several hundred miles away. I think we are stuck with petroleum products for auto and aviation fuel for a good many years to come. Hopefully we won't run out of oil before we find a way to make electric vehicles as practical as internal combustion-powered ones, or are able to develop hydrogen or some other fuel cell technology into a practical reality.

What we need to get away from ASAP is using fossil fuels for electricity generation. That's where renewables can play a major role, but in my opinion we need more, not fewer, nuclear power plants and a concerted, moonshot effort to making fusion energy a reality.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: MusicTurner on November 17, 2020, 02:13:54 PM
There are already relatively ordinary electric cars going 350 miles, though most on the European market currently go between 175 - 275 miles. Speedier upload, longer range, better upload facilities, and less expensiveness will surely be a fact here, say within a decade.

Whether there'll be political will in the US is another matter.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 17, 2020, 02:59:11 PM
Meanwhile, Trump's TV lawyer, Rudy "Is my shirt tucked?" Giuliani is representing his client faithfully in court:

'For the past half-hour, attorney Mark Aronchick – representing PA counties being sued by Trump – has loudly torn into Rudy G., saying he is ignorant of the law, living in "some fantasy world" and pushing wild allegations that are "disgraceful in an American courtroom."'
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 17, 2020, 03:12:54 PM
It's not just a question of cost. It's a question of available technology. We do not yet have the battery technology to make fully renewable energy a reality, given the fact that the main sources (solar and wind) are intermittent. As far as I know the technology to make geothermal a major part of the equation does not yet exist, either.

Then there is the land use footprint. I calculated a while back that at our current need for energy, to power the U.S. entirely on solar power would require devoting something close to 1% of the entire land area of the country to energy production. That may not sound like a lot, but it is at least a couple orders of magnitude larger than the land use footprint of fossil fuel extraction and production. And the land use footprint of wind is even worse.

Also, I don't think this country is ready to accept fully electric powered cars as the only widely available personal means of long distance travel. Americans have long been in love with "muscle cars", with fast acceleration, with the convenience of being able to go 300+ miles and then refuel in 5 minutes. I don't see that changing in my lifetime. Electric cars are fine for getting around town, but the average citizen is not going to want to use them for traveling to the cottage or favorite vacation spot several hundred miles away. I think we are stuck with petroleum products for auto and aviation fuel for a good many years to come. Hopefully we won't run out of oil before we find a way to make electric vehicles as practical as internal combustion-powered ones, or are able to develop hydrogen or some other fuel cell technology into a practical reality.

What we need to get away from ASAP is using fossil fuels for electricity generation. That's where renewables can play a major role, but in my opinion we need more, not fewer, nuclear power plants and a concerted, moonshot effort to making fusion energy a reality.

     We'll work through these problems faster if we accept the challenge and invest in them than if we wait around for them to solve themselves. Either way, we will solve them. We might as well get going.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on November 17, 2020, 03:26:40 PM
Meanwhile, Trump's TV lawyer, Rudy "Is my shirt tucked?" Giuliani is representing his client faithfully in court:

'For the past half-hour, attorney Mark Aronchick – representing PA counties being sued by Trump – has loudly torn into Rudy G., saying he is ignorant of the law, living in "some fantasy world" and pushing wild allegations that are "disgraceful in an American courtroom."'

Ghouliani doesn't seem to be covering himself in glory:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/17/trump-lawyer-rudy-giuliani-asks-to-join-pennsylvania-vote-case.html
...
Giuliani earlier in the day adamantly denied a report in The New York Times that he had asked Trump’s campaign to pay him a whopping $20,000 per day for his legal work.

“I never asked for $20,000,” Giuliani told The Times, saying that Trump offered to “work ... out” any payment to him at the end of the legal process.

The Wall Street Journal later matched The Times story about Giuliani’s request, which the newspaper noted was “an unusually high fee.” The Journal reported that the Trump campaign did not agree to Giuliani’s request, but noted that it could not be determined whether the campaign will pay Giuliani at all.

...
The slapdash nature of the Trump campaign’s case in Pennsylvania was underscored by Giuliani’s statement to Brann on Tuesday that a claim made in the originally filed lawsuit, which alleged a violation of due process, was mistakenly removed from an amended lawsuit.


A former New York City mayor and federal prosecutor, Giuliani is not admitted to practice law in Pennsylvania federal court, so he needed permission from Brann to appear in the case.

Giuliani’s application said that he is “currently a member in good standing” of a number of state and federal courts, and of the District of Columbia Bar.

However, a check of the DC Bar’s registry shows that Giuliani’s admission there is administratively suspended because of nonpayment of fees. That suspension likely would have no affect (sic) on his admission to the Pennsylvania case.

On the same day that Biden was projected as winner of the election, Giuliani led a widely derided news conference about the vote-counting process outside of Four Seasons Total Landscaping, a small business in Philadelphia located between a crematorium and a sex shop.


Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: flyingdutchman on November 17, 2020, 04:07:08 PM


Incorrect.
[/quote]

There is nothing separating Trumpists and the GOP. They are one and the same.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 17, 2020, 04:10:44 PM
There are already relatively ordinary electric cars going 350 miles, though most on the European market currently go between 175 - 275 miles. Speedier upload, longer range, better upload facilities, and less expensiveness will surely be a fact here, say within a decade.

Whether there'll be political will in the US is another matter.

     There is no faster way to solve technological problems than a big effort starting now. You don't bend down the cost curve by imagining how hard it will be to do.

     Mitch says there's no political will to do whatever it is he's paid to have the political will to do. Along those lines I predict I won't get up from this chair. I'm still here, sitting in the chair. I seem to lack the will to get up. Polls say I won't get up. On the plus side, running out of dollars to get up saves them somewhere. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Daverz on November 17, 2020, 04:37:42 PM
In other news, the nation narrowly avoided (by 3 votes in the Senate) the appointment of a goldbug to the Fed.

47 Republican senators voted for the goldbug.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 17, 2020, 04:38:47 PM
Because it's what wannabe autocrats do:

President Trump on Tuesday said in a tweet that Chris Krebs, the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency director, has been “terminated.” The president, who has continued to refuse to accept that he lost the election, said a recent statement by Krebs, in which he called the Nov. 3 election “the most secure in American history,” was “highly inaccurate.” There is no evidence to back Trump’s claims.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 17, 2020, 04:39:23 PM
In other news, the nation narrowly avoided (by 3 votes in the Senate) the appointment of a goldbug to the Fed.

47 Republican senators voted for the goldbug.

Nope, still no sign of a spine!
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on November 17, 2020, 04:41:25 PM
In other news, the nation narrowly avoided (by 3 votes in the Senate) the appointment of a goldbug to the Fed.

47 Republican senators voted for the goldbug.

Pretty astonishing. She's a wingnut even relative to the standard of Cheeto Mussolini appointees.
I fear she still has a chance, though.
See https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-17/shelton-s-fed-confirmation-vote-tightens-with-senator-quarantine
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 17, 2020, 05:06:42 PM
I think those people who have held onto their ‘Not My President’ signs from 2016 may have to get them back out after all is said and done! :D
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 17, 2020, 07:16:57 PM
I think those people who have held onto their ‘Not My President’ signs from 2016 may have to get them back out after all is said and done! :D

I expect there will be brisk sales to the opposition.... ;)

8)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: milk on November 17, 2020, 07:40:13 PM

Nobody says sex doesn't exist. Biological gender is different from mental stuff. Are we supposed to oppress women to the end of time just because they are women? Are we supposed to oppress black people just because they are black? Nobody says gender of skin color doesn't exist.
Obviously (at least it’s obvious to me), we shouldn’t oppress anyone. Racism and sexism persist - obviously.
As for the whether anyone believes sex isn’t real or doesn’t matter:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/nov/16/trans-man-loses-uk-legal-battle-to-register-as-his-childs-father

On another topic, here’s something:

‘What We in the Legal World Call a Felony’: Lawyers Condemn Lindsey Graham, Call for DOJ and Senate Investigations

https://lawandcrime.com/2020-election/what-we-in-the-legal-world-call-a-felony-lawyers-condemn-lindsey-graham-call-for-doj-and-senate-investigations/
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 18, 2020, 12:36:18 AM
It's not just a question of cost. It's a question of available technology. We do not yet have the battery technology to make fully renewable energy a reality, given the fact that the main sources (solar and wind) are intermittent. As far as I know the technology to make geothermal a major part of the equation does not yet exist, either.

It's also a political question. Fossil Fuel companies bribe the politicians a lot to slow down the change (in absurb ways such as bringing snowballs to the congress as a "proof" the climate isn't warming up). What's the intensive of developping better battery technology when the goverment keeps subsidizing Exxon Mobil instead of renewable energy industry? Now, this is only the US. Elsewhere in the World politicians are not often as bribed and the political will is stronger to do something about climate change. The US is in danger of lagging behind other countries in the field of Green technology.

Then there is the land use footprint. I calculated a while back that at our current need for energy, to power the U.S. entirely on solar power would require devoting something close to 1% of the entire land area of the country to energy production. That may not sound like a lot, but it is at least a couple orders of magnitude larger than the land use footprint of fossil fuel extraction and production. And the land use footprint of wind is even worse.

My calculations indicate about 0.1 % of the land area is need for electricity consumption, but you probably calculated ALL energy consumption. Of course nobody suggests only solar panels are used. There's wind turbines (even if their noise causes cancer according to very stable genius Trump), waterpower, geothermal energy etc., but solar panels are part of the solution.

Also, I don't think this country is ready to accept fully electric powered cars as the only widely available personal means of long distance travel. Americans have long been in love with "muscle cars", with fast acceleration, with the convenience of being able to go 300+ miles and then refuel in 5 minutes. I don't see that changing in my lifetime. Electric cars are fine for getting around town, but the average citizen is not going to want to use them for traveling to the cottage or favorite vacation spot several hundred miles away. I think we are stuck with petroleum products for auto and aviation fuel for a good many years to come. Hopefully we won't run out of oil before we find a way to make electric vehicles as practical as internal combustion-powered ones, or are able to develop hydrogen or some other fuel cell technology into a practical reality.

Is your country ready to accept the effects of climate change? We don't have the luxury of "accepting" these things. We have to do something if we want this planet to survive our greed. Aliens monitoring us must think we are complete idiots destroying our planet because we want to refuel our cars in 5 minutes!  :P Fortunately not all Americans are that dumb and the Green New Deal is actually very popular. The utter corruption is the main problem.

What we need to get away from ASAP is using fossil fuels for electricity generation. That's where renewables can play a major role, but in my opinion we need more, not fewer, nuclear power plants and a concerted, moonshot effort to making fusion energy a reality.

Nuclear power has it's role while we wait for fusion energy, but too much nuclear power compromises the incentive to develop renewable energy.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 18, 2020, 12:40:39 AM
     We'll work through these problems faster if we accept the challenge and invest in them than if we wait around for them to solve themselves. Either way, we will solve them. We might as well get going.

Yes, and the sooner we act the "easier" it will be.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: arpeggio on November 18, 2020, 04:05:19 AM
Even though Biden won the election our country is still hopelessly divided and I have no idea how we can reconcile our differences.

No matter what we liberals say or do, most conservatives consider us un-American and evil.   
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: milk on November 18, 2020, 05:04:36 AM
Even though Biden won the election our country is still hopelessly divided and I have no idea how we can reconcile our differences.

No matter what we liberals say or do, most conservatives consider us un-American and evil.   
I think if we're just arguing ideas, there should at least be times when we agree on something. What's really hard are the conspiracy theorists. They're not interested in ideas. It's not a philosophy. It's an inoculation against reality. I've tried to talk to them but they've given up on ideas and can only talk about the dark powers that seek to destroy them. 
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 18, 2020, 06:41:19 AM
Trump fired yet another person who disagreed with him--about the integrity of the US election and cyber-security.  Goodbye to Mr. Krebs.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54984196

Who's left to run this country and keep us safe?   >:(  :(

PD

p.s.  This is his new Twitter account:  https://twitter.com/C_C_Krebs

and his archived account when he was head of CISA:  https://twitter.com/CISAKrebs
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on November 18, 2020, 08:06:01 AM
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/republicans-won-almost-every-election-where-redistricting-was-at-stake/

Joe Biden may have won the White House, but down-ballot races were much better for Republicans. In fact, the GOP’s victories in state-level elections could pay dividends long after Biden leaves office, thanks to their influence over next year’s redistricting process.

Every 10 years, after the census, congressional and state legislature districts are redrawn to account for population changes. This gives whoever is drawing the maps the power to maximize the number of districts that favor their party — a tactic known as gerrymandering. And as we wrote last month, the 2020 election represented the last chance for voters to weigh in on who would draw those maps. Both parties went into the election with a chance to draw more congressional districts than the other, but the end result was just about the best-case scenario for Republicans. As the map below shows, Republicans are set to control the redistricting of 188 congressional seats — or 43 percent of the entire House of Representatives. By contrast, Democrats will control the redistricting of, at most, 73 seats, or 17 percent.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 18, 2020, 08:23:41 AM
Even though Biden won the election our country is still hopelessly divided and I have no idea how we can reconcile our differences.

No matter what we liberals say or do, most conservatives consider us un-American and evil.   

- The first step is to make people realize the divide is not actually right - left, but 1 % - 99 % (class war)
- The second step is finding those issues the right and left actually agree about such as ending the wars or NSA spying.
- The third step is improve education system and main stream media so that people understand things better.
- The fourth step is taking money out of politics/ending the corruption.

I believe these steps together could do miracles, but the problem is these are not easy steps to make!  ???
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 19, 2020, 12:22:32 PM
class war

That's not enough. You'll have to preach the accompanying notion of "objective class enemy": an individual who, although personally not guilty of any crime against, and no exploiter of, the people is nevertheless an enemy of the people by the mere fact of being born into, and belonging to, a class (namely bourgeoisie or aristocracy) which by its very existence is an enemy of, and a threat to, the proletariat. Such an individual faces only two choices: (1) to publicly repudiate their own class and join the proletarian struggle, or (2) be obliterated together with their class by the victory of the proletarian revolution.

Sticking with music, two prime examples are Felix Mendelssohn and Sergei Rachmaninoff.

This may sound as a joke but it's not. It's a very serious matter and countless lives have been destroyed in Romania in the name of "class war" and "objective class enemy" --- so I'll perhaps be excused if I see red (pun!) whenever I hear about class war.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on November 19, 2020, 01:36:35 PM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-19/trump-to-meet-with-michigan-republicans-in-bid-to-overturn-vote
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: arpeggio on November 19, 2020, 01:42:10 PM
- The first step is to make people realize the divide is not actually right - left, but 1 % - 99 % (class war)
- The second step is finding those issues the right and left actually agree about such as ending the wars or NSA spying.
- The third step is improve education system and main stream media so that people understand things better.
- The fourth step is taking money out of politics/ending the corruption.

I believe these steps together could do miracles, but the problem is these are not easy steps to make!  ???

I do not mean this to be as a criticism of you personally.  Although we disagree on some things you are a very knowledge member.

I live in Fairfax County, Virginia, which is a suburb on Washington, DC.  70% of Fairfax voted for Biden.  Here in Fairfax one rarely meets a Trump supporter, but I know a few.

I have a brother who is a big supporter of Trump.  He lives in Union County, NC, which is a suburb of Charlotte, NC.  61% of Union County voted for Trump.  My wife has many relative who live in North Carolina.   My mother, who lives with my brother, still believes that Obama in a Moslem.  My wife has relatives who do not believe in Darwin and that the world in only 10,000 years old.  I have a niece who does not believe in dinosaurs.

Normally I avoid discussing politics with these people.  Whenever I make the mistake the same thing always happens.  When faced with reality they immediately accuse me of being something I am not.  The last time I made a mistake of discussing politics with a Trumpster, he claimed that all Democrats were anti-Semitic.  One can see the same pattern of behavior with the few Trumpsters who frequent this forum.

Your suggestions sound reasonable if one is trying to carry on a discussion with a rational person.  The vast majority of Trumpsters I have met live in an alternant reality where all Democrats hate America and are evil.

Recently the Dean of Virginia Wesleyan University in Virginia Beach, VA had to resign after making statements that supporters of Biden "were ignorant, anti-American and anti-Christian."(52% of Virginia Beach voted for Biden.  In 2016 most of Virginia Beach voted for Trump.  There are many military that live in Virginia Beach.)
 
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2020/11/17/virginia-wesleyan-university-dean-resigns-statement-biden-voters/6325744002/

I do not see how we can resolve differences with people who deny Darwin and scientific reality.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 19, 2020, 02:05:40 PM
I do not mean this to be as a criticism of you personally.  Although we disagree on some things you are a very knowledge member.

I live in Fairfax County, Virginia, which is a suburb on Washington, DC.  70% of Fairfax voted for Biden.  Here in Fairfax one rarely meets a Trump supporter, but I know a few.

I have a brother who is a big supporter of Trump.  He lives in Union County, NC, which is a suburb of Charlotte, NC.  61% of Union County voted for Trump.  My wife has many relative who live in North Carolina.   My mother, who lives with my brother, still believes that Obama in a Moslem.  My wife has relatives who do not believe in Darwin and that the world in only 10,000 years old.  I have a niece who does not believe in dinosaurs.

Normally I avoid discussing politics with these people.  Whenever I make the mistake the same thing always happens.  When faced with reality they immediately accuse me of being something I am not.  The last time I made a mistake of discussing politics with a Trumpster, he claimed that all Democrats were anti-Semitic.  One can see the same pattern of behavior with the few Trumpsters who frequent this forum.

Your suggestions sound reasonable if one is trying to carry on a discussion with a rational person.  The vast majority of Trumpsters I have met live in an alternant reality where all Democrats hate America and are evil.

Recently the Dean of Virginia Wesleyan University in Virginia Beach, VA had to resign after making statements that supporters of Biden "were ignorant, anti-American and anti-Christian."(52% of Virginia Beach voted for Biden.  In 2016 most of Virginia Beach voted for Trump.  There are many military that live in Virginia Beach.)
 
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2020/11/17/virginia-wesleyan-university-dean-resigns-statement-biden-voters/6325744002/

I do not see how we can resolve differences with people who deny Darwin and scientific reality.

When it comes to politics, I am from Mars and my in-laws are from Venus, yet my relationship with them is excellent. The key to this is to never let politics stand in the way. We are not defined by whom we vote for, but by what what we do and how we behave. I hate everything and everyone my father-in-law stands for politically, and viceversa, yet we never had any irreconcilable conflict --- actually, we have always got along very fine. Life is larger than politics.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on November 19, 2020, 03:56:13 PM
Rudy Ghouliani staged a public meltdown. Literally.  :laugh:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/rudy-giulianis-hair-dye-streaks-down-face-after-my-cousin-vinny-performance

(https://img.thedailybeast.com/image/upload/c_crop,d_placeholder_euli9k,h_1439,w_2560,x_0,y_175/dpr_1.5/c_limit,w_1044/fl_lossy,q_auto/v1605810994/GettyImages-1229683394_s9pjyp)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 19, 2020, 04:16:44 PM
      In a little more than a decade the country has twice fought economic calamity with half measures and that has messed with people's heads. They want someone to blame, and they have found the blameworthy among the usual suspects. We've been here before, in the '30s with Father Coughlin, Huey Long and Gerald L. K. Smith.

     We should make differences, real economic differences, then people will sit still for resolving them. When you don't build the future people will fight over the junkheap of the present.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 19, 2020, 05:02:56 PM
Rudy Ghouliani staged a public meltdown. Literally.  :laugh:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/rudy-giulianis-hair-dye-streaks-down-face-after-my-cousin-vinny-performance

(https://img.thedailybeast.com/image/upload/c_crop,d_placeholder_euli9k,h_1439,w_2560,x_0,y_175/dpr_1.5/c_limit,w_1044/fl_lossy,q_auto/v1605810994/GettyImages-1229683394_s9pjyp)

Hence: Sweaty Clown Car
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: arpeggio on November 19, 2020, 05:07:35 PM
When it comes to politics, I am from Mars and my in-laws are from Venus, yet my relationship with them is excellent. The key to this is to never let politics stand in the way. We are not defined by whom we vote for, but by what what we do and how we behave. I hate everything and everyone my father-in-law stands for politically, and viceversa, yet we never had any irreconcilable conflict --- actually, we have always got along very fine. Life is larger than politics.

At one time I would agree with you but the situation has really deteriorated in the United States.

Whenever we visit relatives in North Carolina my wife and I are on pins and needles.  Many of them refer to us as those northern liberals.  My brother is always trying to pick fights with me. 

My brother has alienated both of my sons that they are no longer on speaking terms.  My oldest son is married to a Korean women and my my brother has made snide remarks about my grandchildren.  My youngest sons long time girl friend is Mexican and my brother has made remarks that it is sad that he could not hook up with a nice white girl.  The only reason I tolerate my brother's behavior is because my mother lives with him and I do not want to be cut off from her.

It has gotten so bad with my wife that between her sisters, nieces and nephews the only relative my wife still has a good relationship with is her brother. 

Whenever they try to start something my wife and I start talking about the weather.

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on November 19, 2020, 05:15:21 PM
Hence: Sweaty Clown Car

Stephen Sondheim called it years ago:

Isn't it rich?
Isn't it queer?
Losing my timing this late in my career
And where are the clowns?
Quick, send in the clowns
Don't bother
They're here
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 19, 2020, 05:20:02 PM
Hence: Sweaty Clown Car

”Hey! I resent that!!!” - Jared Kushner

(https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/NDvtE8ruqfNU3oi3p2k4YG.jpg)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 19, 2020, 05:33:15 PM
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/republicans-won-almost-every-election-where-redistricting-was-at-stake/ (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/republicans-won-almost-every-election-where-redistricting-was-at-stake/)

Joe Biden may have won the White House, but down-ballot races were much better for Republicans. In fact, the GOP’s victories in state-level elections could pay dividends long after Biden leaves office, thanks to their influence over next year’s redistricting process.

Every 10 years, after the census, congressional and state legislature districts are redrawn to account for population changes. This gives whoever is drawing the maps the power to maximize the number of districts that favor their party — a tactic known as gerrymandering. And as we wrote last month, the 2020 election represented the last chance for voters to weigh in on who would draw those maps. Both parties went into the election with a chance to draw more congressional districts than the other, but the end result was just about the best-case scenario for Republicans. As the map below shows, Republicans are set to control the redistricting of 188 congressional seats — or 43 percent of the entire House of Representatives. By contrast, Democrats will control the redistricting of, at most, 73 seats, or 17 percent.

Yes, with apologies to our Poju, the discussion on this podcast (https://podcast.thebulwark.com/brendan-buck-georgia-on-my-mind) underscores how the Democrats have not the least shade of a mandate to lurch left.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Brewski on November 19, 2020, 05:36:22 PM
At one time I would agree with you but the situation has really deteriorated in the United States.

Whenever we visit relatives in North Carolina my wife and I are on pins and needles.  Many of them refer to us as those northern liberals.  My brother is always trying to pick fights with me. 

My brother has alienated both of my sons that they are no longer on speaking terms.  My oldest son is married to a Korean women and my my brother has made snide remarks about my grandchildren.  My youngest sons long time girl friend is Mexican and my brother has made remarks that it is sad that he could not hook up with a nice white girl.  The only reason I tolerate my brothers behavior is because my mother lives with him and I do not want to be cut off from her.

Whenever they try to start something my wife and I start talking about the weather.

It has gotten so bad with my wife that between her sisters, nieces and nephews the only relative my wife still has a good relationship with is her brother.

Very sorry to hear this. If it's any consolation, based on my anecdotal evidence on social media and elsewhere, you have lots of company. I work with a 20-ish woman whose parents support T****. She barely speaks to them. In my own family, I have members who identify as Christian, but their behavior is about as un-Christian as can be imagined. They support T**** eagerly. Despite my making it clear that I would be amenable to conversations about any number of issues, they aren't interested. "It won't make any difference anyway."

--Bruce
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 19, 2020, 06:18:49 PM
At one time I would agree with you but the situation has really deteriorated in the United States.

Whenever we visit relatives in North Carolina my wife and I are on pins and needles.  Many of them refer to us as those northern liberals.  My brother is always trying to pick fights with me. 

My brother has alienated both of my sons that they are no longer on speaking terms.  My oldest son is married to a Korean women and my my brother has made snide remarks about my grandchildren.  My youngest sons long time girl friend is Mexican and my brother has made remarks that it is sad that he could not hook up with a nice white girl.  The only reason I tolerate my brothers behavior is because my mother lives with him and I do not want to be cut off from her.

Whenever they try to start something my wife and I start talking about the weather.

It has gotten so bad with my wife that between her sisters, nieces and nephews the only relative my wife still has a good relationship with is her brother.

I have a similar situation, but it’s not in regard to politics. Basically, it’s just my parents and myself. My older brother and sister both have a horrible relationship with my dad. They’ll regret not coming to see him one day. My sister wants to make up with my dad, but doesn’t even bother coming over to mend the relationship --- actions always speak louder than words. My brother has basically cut himself off from the entire family, but to be honest, I couldn’t be happier about that as he’s always putting me down with some kind of hurtful, underhanded remark. Like, for example, the tv show Married... with Children was on when he was over one time and we were sitting on the couch watching it. Anyway, I made an innocent remark that Christina Applegate will always be remembered as Kelly Bundy and he looked at me for second and said “Well, you’ll always be remembered for nothing.” I fluffed it off at the time, but those kinds of comments do cut deep and by him saying this to me, he pretty much told me what he thought about me. After that, I didn’t have much to do with him and, quite frankly, I’m over worrying about whether he’ll come around and actually act like a decent human being again to me and treat me like his brother. That ship has sailed years ago. The holidays should be a reminder of good times and knowing you have people you can count on, but I don’t look at them this way. They’re more or less a reminder that my family will never be the same or be what it was when we were all younger. People change, but, unfortunately, they change for all the wrong reasons. If there’s anything I’m thankful for, it’s my parents. They have shown me nothing but support and have been there for every step of the way, so I, in return, have to return this support to them the best I can.

Anyway, I say forget those people in your life that bring you misery and hardship --- you simply don’t need them. Focus on the people who do build you up, not tear you down. You’ll be better off in the long-run.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on November 19, 2020, 06:28:40 PM
At one time I would agree with you but the situation has really deteriorated in the United States.

Whenever we visit relatives in North Carolina my wife and I are on pins and needles.  Many of them refer to us as those northern liberals.  My brother is always trying to pick fights with me. 

My brother has alienated both of my sons that they are no longer on speaking terms.  My oldest son is married to a Korean women and my my brother has made snide remarks about my grandchildren.  My youngest sons long time girl friend is Mexican and my brother has made remarks that it is sad that he could not hook up with a nice white girl.  The only reason I tolerate my brothers behavior is because my mother lives with him and I do not want to be cut off from her.

Whenever they try to start something my wife and I start talking about the weather.

It has gotten so bad with my wife that between her sisters, nieces and nephews the only relative my wife still has a good relationship with is her brother.

I am so sorry to hear this. But I am not surprised. I see and hear similar things every day in the U.S.A.  Probably these people still live in the value structure before the Civil Rights, and they think that the other people changed and became un-American/un-Christian.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Daverz on November 19, 2020, 06:30:54 PM
Yes, with apologies to our Poju, the discussion on this podcast (https://podcast.thebulwark.com/brendan-buck-georgia-on-my-mind) underscores how the Democrats have not the least shade of a mandate to lurch left.

Democrats probably would think they need some kind of "mandate" to enact progressive policies.  That's why Democrats suck.  Republicans declare a mandate no matter what the vote was and do whatever they were planning to do anyway.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 19, 2020, 07:35:35 PM
Democrats probably would think they need some kind of "mandate" to enact progressive policies.  That's why Democrats suck.  Republicans declare a mandate no matter what the vote was and do whatever they were planning to do anyway.

I see your point. Nevertheless, President Biden will have enough work with the pandemic for rather a piece.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 19, 2020, 07:43:45 PM

It was also all but certain that Trump would steal the election.

Despite what has been written on GMG, he did not try. 


     
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 19, 2020, 07:55:55 PM
Not much in the way of acumen.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: JBS on November 19, 2020, 09:08:39 PM
Democrats probably would think they need some kind of "mandate" to enact progressive policies.  That's why Democrats suck.  Republicans declare a mandate no matter what the vote was and do whatever they were planning to do anyway.

In terms of percentage of votes, Biden has a bigger mandate than Carter, Reagan, or Clinton.

But a very slim majority in the House and at best a 50/50 Senate (if Ossoff and Warnock do the improbable) mean he'll have no real chance to use it.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 20, 2020, 02:21:30 AM
At one time I would agree with you but the situation has really deteriorated in the United States.

Whenever we visit relatives in North Carolina my wife and I are on pins and needles.  Many of them refer to us as those northern liberals.  My brother is always trying to pick fights with me. 

My brother has alienated both of my sons that they are no longer on speaking terms.  My oldest son is married to a Korean women and my my brother has made snide remarks about my grandchildren.  My youngest sons long time girl friend is Mexican and my brother has made remarks that it is sad that he could not hook up with a nice white girl.  The only reason I tolerate my brother's behavior is because my mother lives with him and I do not want to be cut off from her.

It has gotten so bad with my wife that between her sisters, nieces and nephews the only relative my wife still has a good relationship with is her brother. 

Whenever they try to start something my wife and I start talking about the weather.

I'm sorry to hear that, it must be very difficult for you.

We had a similar period in Romania in the early 1990s, immediately after the fall of the communist regime. Whole families were sharply divided along political lines and relationships were cold or even broken altogether. Nowadays, though, the situation is normalized.

AFAIC, politics it's not worth it.




Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 20, 2020, 03:08:36 AM
Not much in the way of acumen.

It's called alternative facts.

Even while Trump is trying to steal the election, that and playing golf are his only lame duck pursuits, you blithely say you own the facts and ridicule anyone who reads a newspaper ("failing") and say Trump is not even trying to steal the election.

In case of credibility loss start ten Beethoven topics.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 20, 2020, 03:16:47 AM
I made an innocent remark that Christina Applegate will always be remembered as Kelly Bundy and he looked at me for second and said “Well, you’ll always be remembered for nothing.”

Fprgive me for saying it but your brother is a jerk.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 20, 2020, 03:21:32 AM
The key to this is to never let politics stand in the way. We are not defined by whom we vote for, but by what what we do and how we behave. [...]  Life is larger than politics.

voting is an act, not just some form of fantasy; it's what you do, and it has consequences.

in general your story is applicable, but not if people are voting for a president who seperates kids from their parents and puts them in cages and all the other awful things.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 20, 2020, 03:29:30 AM

Anyway, I say forget those people in your life that bring you misery and hardship --- you simply don’t need them. Focus on the people who do build you up, not tear you down. You’ll be better off in the long-run.

As any psychotherapist can tell you, one's close family is a source of pain to many people.

You can spend decades trying to make it better, but sometimes it just doesn't work out, because there's too much pain and resentment and mysterious motives you'll never untangle.

Focus on people who like and love you for who you are. Life is too short.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 20, 2020, 04:09:04 AM
voting is an act, not just some form of fantasy; it's what you do, and it has consequences.

in general your story is applicable, but not if people are voting for a president who seperates kids from their parents and puts them in cages and all the other awful things.

Presidents come and go. Trump will soon be history. A permanently damaged relationship with one's family, though, is a source of frustration, anger and/or resentment. Not good for the health of anyone involved.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 20, 2020, 04:25:31 AM
Presidents come and go. Trump will soon be history.

Yep, but all the damage he did takes decades to repair.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 20, 2020, 04:47:25 AM
I do not mean this to be as a criticism of you personally.  Although we disagree on some things you are a very knowledge member.

At least you are being respectful.   0:)

Your suggestions sound reasonable if one is trying to carry on a discussion with a rational person.  The vast majority of Trumpsters I have met live in an alternant reality where all Democrats hate America and are evil.

As I said, the steps I listed are really hard to make, but what else can you do but try? The alternative is not trying and letting things be as they are and even deterioating further. A certain portion of the country will live in alternant reality no matter what, but as long as they are in the minority and there's democracy it's ok. In Finland about 20 % of the population is "out there", but they are small enough group, althou I wish these people didn't exist at all.

I do not see how we can resolve differences with people who deny Darwin and scientific reality.

What if Hillary had win in 2016? Trumpists would not be the cult they are today. 70.000 votes in the rust belt made Trump the president. If you can "convert" just 1 % of the population to follow reason you are in a better place.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 20, 2020, 05:08:58 AM
When it comes to politics, I am from Mars and my in-laws are from Venus, yet my relationship with them is excellent. The key to this is to never let politics stand in the way. We are not defined by whom we vote for, but by what what we do and how we behave. I hate everything and everyone my father-in-law stands for politically, and viceversa, yet we never had any irreconcilable conflict --- actually, we have always got along very fine. Life is larger than politics.
I am happy for you Florestan; glad to see that both parties can set that aside and still care about each other.  :)

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 20, 2020, 05:13:47 AM
At one time I would agree with you but the situation has really deteriorated in the United States.

Whenever we visit relatives in North Carolina my wife and I are on pins and needles.  Many of them refer to us as those northern liberals.  My brother is always trying to pick fights with me. 

My brother has alienated both of my sons that they are no longer on speaking terms.  My oldest son is married to a Korean women and my my brother has made snide remarks about my grandchildren.  My youngest sons long time girl friend is Mexican and my brother has made remarks that it is sad that he could not hook up with a nice white girl.  The only reason I tolerate my brother's behavior is because my mother lives with him and I do not want to be cut off from her.

It has gotten so bad with my wife that between her sisters, nieces and nephews the only relative my wife still has a good relationship with is her brother. 

Whenever they try to start something my wife and I start talking about the weather.
I'm so sorry to read this and wish that I could offer some words of wisdom and of comfort.  That's very brave and loving of you to willingly enter into that toxic environment to spend time with your mother.

All the best,

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 20, 2020, 05:48:58 AM
What happened to Russia?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: flyingdutchman on November 20, 2020, 05:49:12 AM
At one time I would agree with you but the situation has really deteriorated in the United States.

Whenever we visit relatives in North Carolina my wife and I are on pins and needles.  Many of them refer to us as those northern liberals.  My brother is always trying to pick fights with me. 

My brother has alienated both of my sons that they are no longer on speaking terms.  My oldest son is married to a Korean women and my my brother has made snide remarks about my grandchildren.  My youngest sons long time girl friend is Mexican and my brother has made remarks that it is sad that he could not hook up with a nice white girl.  The only reason I tolerate my brother's behavior is because my mother lives with him and I do not want to be cut off from her.

It has gotten so bad with my wife that between her sisters, nieces and nephews the only relative my wife still has a good relationship with is her brother. 

Whenever they try to start something my wife and I start talking about the weather.

Very sad to hear. My wife is Japanese and our kids are half caucasian/half Japanese. My own family has been respectful and my aunt and step-father who have long since died and grew up during the time of war with Japan had nothing but love and respect for her when they lived. I was/am blessed. My wife is a wonder and she's dealt with racism in the community and at work, but NEVER with my family. She works as an RN and has dealt with abusive behavior mostly from white patients, but keeps her humor and grace about her.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 20, 2020, 05:59:28 AM
She works as an RN and has dealt with abusive behavior mostly from white patients, but keeps her humor and grace about her.

Wow, on the west coast?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Sterna on November 20, 2020, 06:31:32 AM
What happened to Russia?

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: MusicTurner on November 20, 2020, 06:59:43 AM
Rudy Ghouliani staged a public meltdown. Literally.  :laugh:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/rudy-giulianis-hair-dye-streaks-down-face-after-my-cousin-vinny-performance

(https://img.thedailybeast.com/image/upload/c_crop,d_placeholder_euli9k,h_1439,w_2560,x_0,y_175/dpr_1.5/c_limit,w_1044/fl_lossy,q_auto/v1605810994/GettyImages-1229683394_s9pjyp)




This photo is sort of more balanced:
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 20, 2020, 07:08:20 AM
Forgive me for saying it but your brother is a jerk.

No need to forgive you for quoting the truth. He is a grade A jerk.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 20, 2020, 07:10:06 AM
As any psychotherapist can tell you, one's close family is a source of pain to many people.

You can spend decades trying to make it better, but sometimes it just doesn't work out, because there's too much pain and resentment and mysterious motives you'll never untangle.

Focus on people who like and love you for who you are. Life is too short.

It certainly can be, but as you said, life’s too short to worry about all that --- a person should be around people who make them happy.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 20, 2020, 07:18:36 AM
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/

     There's a nice bit on how Russians react to The Queen's Gambit.

     The Trumptator may or may not touch base with Vladdy, that's failing news we haven't yet read. Truly, though, why would Putin want to mess with something that pays off so handsomely? Let it be, I say.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Sterna on November 20, 2020, 07:29:51 AM
     There's a nice bit on how Russians react to The Queen's Gambit.
[...]

Indeed.
The final lines:
The problem is not that “The Queen’s Gambit” portrays Russians incorrectly — it doesn’t. The fact is simply that Russians always find a way to be dissatisfied, even when nothing is wrong.
When I read that, I immediately thought: Queen's Gambit Declined. ;)

     The Trumptator may or may not touch base with Vladdy, that's failing news we haven't yet read. Truly, though, why would Putin want to mess with something that pays off so handsomely? Let it be, I say.

I was only trying to help another forum member, who seemed to be lost a bit.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 20, 2020, 07:54:28 AM
     There's a nice bit on how Russians react to The Queen's Gambit.

     The Trumptator may or may not touch base with Vladdy, that's failing news we haven't yet read. Truly, though, why would Putin want to mess with something that pays off so handsomely? Let it be, I say.

He's defiitely enjoying the hands-free appliance.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 20, 2020, 07:55:42 AM
Indeed.
The final lines:
The problem is not that “The Queen’s Gambit” portrays Russians incorrectly — it doesn’t. The fact is simply that Russians always find a way to be dissatisfied, even when nothing is wrong.
When I read that, I immediately thought: Queen's Gambit Declined. ;)

Well played, sieur!
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: milk on November 20, 2020, 08:02:43 AM
At one time I would agree with you but the situation has really deteriorated in the United States.

Whenever we visit relatives in North Carolina my wife and I are on pins and needles.  Many of them refer to us as those northern liberals.  My brother is always trying to pick fights with me. 

My brother has alienated both of my sons that they are no longer on speaking terms.  My oldest son is married to a Korean women and my my brother has made snide remarks about my grandchildren.  My youngest sons long time girl friend is Mexican and my brother has made remarks that it is sad that he could not hook up with a nice white girl.  The only reason I tolerate my brother's behavior is because my mother lives with him and I do not want to be cut off from her.

It has gotten so bad with my wife that between her sisters, nieces and nephews the only relative my wife still has a good relationship with is her brother. 

Whenever they try to start something my wife and I start talking about the weather.

My sister turned from a Biden voter to fanatically believing that COVID is part of a communist conspiracy to take over the U.S. She’s anti-Vax, anti-mask and thinks Trump won. She’s pushes this shockingly far, haranguing us with dire emotional messages of doom. She writes things like, “I’m begging you,” and “wake up.” I don’t live in the U.S. I can’t do much practically. My parents are octogenarian Jews in the last years of reasonably good health. It’s really sad. ETA: I just give my parents background because they’re not the kind of people you’d bother with politics. They’re not political aside from having become more liberal as members of the family came out and adopted biracial children. That’s the only thing that’s made them more direct about politics. Even if I believed some conspiracy theory, I’d know better than to bother them with it - especially at their age. My sister is making this a condition of their relationship.
I will say this: she’s terrified. Imagine believing what she believes.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 20, 2020, 08:05:15 AM
     Making the Most of the Coming Biden Boom (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/19/opinion/joe-biden-economy.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage)

What held recovery back after 2008? Most obviously, the bursting of the housing bubble left households with high levels of debt and greatly weakened balance sheets that took years to recover.

This time, however, households entered the pandemic slump with much lower debt. Net worth took a brief hit but quickly recovered. And there’s probably a lot of pent-up demand: Americans who remained employed did a huge amount of saving in quarantine, accumulating a lot of liquid assets.


     The Krugster isn't telling the story quite the way he did a few years back when he correctly diagnosed the weak recovery as a demand shortfall. That analysis didn't just highlight the savings deficit, it explained it. Now he foregrounds the housing bubble problem without mentioning this vital piece of the picture.

     That very much aside, government action to flood the zone with savings should have the effect he sees. Points are deducted for mentioning the Fed.

     A 'growth bomb' is brewing in the US with consumers sitting on $2.5 trillion in savings — and it's poised to give the economy a huge boost, one Wall Street chief strategist says (https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/a-growth-bomb-is-brewing-in-the-us-with-consumers-sitting-on-dollar25-trillion-in-savings-%E2%80%94-and-its-poised-to-give-the-economy-a-huge-boost-one-wall-street-chief-strategist-says/ar-BB1aO67H)

     Yup.....this happened in the '20s after the '21 depression, and again in the '30s after the GD, and once again in the '50s after the WWII savings bomb. The "debt bomb" becomes the growth bomb.

     Bubble shmubble.....
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 20, 2020, 08:08:53 AM

My sister turned from a Biden voter to fanatically believing that COVID is part of a communist conspiracy to take over the U.S. She’s anti-Vax, anti-mask and thinks Trump won. She’s pushes this shockingly far, haranguing us with dire emotional messages of doom. She writes things like, “I’m begging you,” and “wake up.” I don’t live in the U.S. I can’t do much practically. My parents are octogenarian Jews in the last years of reasonably good health. It’s really sad.

There’s extremism on both sides of the political spectrum, but to anyone who disbelieves COVID and refuses to, at the very least, to wear a mask around other people is a huge part of the current health crisis of this country. Masks should be mandated and I agree with what President Joe Biden said, “Wearing a mask isn’t a political statement.”
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: milk on November 20, 2020, 08:14:16 AM
There’s extremism on both sides of the political spectrum, but to anyone who disbelieves COVID and refuses to, at the very least, to wear a mask around other people is a huge part of the current health crisis of this country. Masks should be mandated and I agree with what President Joe Biden said, “Wearing a mask isn’t a political statement.”
I agree 100% about extremism on both sides and the masks. yes. I live in Japan. Masks were a way of life even before this. Japan isn’t out of the woods yet either but it’s still got on much better than Europe or the U.S. Everyone in Japan wears a masks from when they step out of their houses to when they come home. You can even see Japanese people driving in their cars alone with their masks on.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 20, 2020, 08:21:16 AM
There’s extremism on both sides of the political spectrum

     The extreme left is outside the Dem party and hates it. As much as AOC wants to identify herself as a socialist, she's a fairly standard issue left Dem in programmatic terms.

     These days the word socialist means you want things other people want, only with more oomph. AOC wants economic measures "no I mean really". If that's socialism, we live in an almost socialist country without lifting an ideological finger. I don't have to like how terms are unmoored from their historic roots. Maybe I should get with the times. I won't though.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: flyingdutchman on November 20, 2020, 08:48:31 AM
Wow, on the west coast?

Yep, even on the west coast. Portland, and especially if you go up into Southwest Washington state can be extremely close-minded. In a town we live in, she was called monkey by a white guy as she left the Dollar store once. In the hospital she works in a white person refused to be treated by here and demanded that a white nurse help her.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: flyingdutchman on November 20, 2020, 08:51:04 AM
Bah humbug. Biden wins the popular vote due to California, the diverse state with the highest concentration of illegal immigrants, foreigners and left wing nutjobs. I don’t think the rest of America is anything like the golden state for its whacky one party liberalism.

He won the popular vote pretty much everywhere with a 6 million win difference.  That's not all California. Further, his election wins in states that Trump "won" far outdistance his totals in those states.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: flyingdutchman on November 20, 2020, 08:55:56 AM

My sister turned from a Biden voter to fanatically believing that COVID is part of a communist conspiracy to take over the U.S. She’s anti-Vax, anti-mask and thinks Trump won. She’s pushes this shockingly far, haranguing us with dire emotional messages of doom. She writes things like, “I’m begging you,” and “wake up.” I don’t live in the U.S. I can’t do much practically. My parents are octogenarian Jews in the last years of reasonably good health. It’s really sad. ETA: I just give my parents background because they’re not the kind of people you’d bother with politics. They’re not political aside from having become more liberal as members of the family came out and adopted biracial children. That’s the only thing that’s made them more direct about politics. Even if I believed some conspiracy theory, I’d know better than to bother them with it - especially at their age. My sister is making this a condition of their relationship.
I will say this: she’s terrified. Imagine believing what she believes.

Wow. She turned from being a Biden voter to being a Trump voter based on only that?  My god. It is interesting, however, to note that the virus mutation that came to the US came to us mostly via Europe. Trump stopped some people coming from China, but his decision to issue the "blockade" on Europe last year only pushed frantic people to come back from Europe bringing the virus with them.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on November 20, 2020, 09:12:06 AM
Very sad to hear. My wife is Japanese and our kids are half caucasian/half Japanese. My own family has been respectful and my aunt and step-father who have long since died and grew up during the time of war with Japan had nothing but love and respect for her when they lived. I was/am blessed. My wife is a wonder and she's dealt with racism in the community and at work, but NEVER with my family. She works as an RN and has dealt with abusive behavior mostly from white patients, but keeps her humor and grace about her.

Sorry to hear about it. Couples of Asian male and Caucasian female may even receive harsher and more explicit hatred and threats.  But anyway, I have seen so many abuses against non-whites and interracial couples in the nation.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 20, 2020, 09:53:13 AM
I agree 100% about extremism on both sides and the masks. yes. I live in Japan. Masks were a way of life even before this. Japan isn’t out of the woods yet either but it’s still got on much better than Europe or the U.S. Everyone in Japan wears a masks from when they step out of their houses to when they come home. You can even see Japanese people driving in their cars alone with their masks on.

Maybe I should move to Japan --- it sounds like my kind of place. :)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: flyingdutchman on November 20, 2020, 10:14:18 AM
Lived in Japan for 12 years and yep, way of life.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 20, 2020, 10:19:42 AM
Lived in Japan for 12 years and yep, way of life.

 8)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on November 20, 2020, 11:06:59 AM
People with professional degrees may like living there. The people with, or without, bachelors degrees are divided.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 20, 2020, 11:15:32 AM
Anyone else here concerned about the 4 p.m. meeting today (Friday) between the two Michigan election officials and Pres. Trump at the White House?

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 20, 2020, 11:19:14 AM
Anyone else here concerned about the 4 p.m. meeting today (Friday) between the two Michigan election officials and Pres. Trump at the White House?

PD

Not really. Acceptance of defeat is a long and painful road for some people, especially when they’re a billionaire.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 20, 2020, 11:22:23 AM
There’s extremism on both sides of the political spectrum, but to anyone who disbelieves COVID and refuses to, at the very least, to wear a mask around other people is a huge part of the current health crisis of this country. Masks should be mandated and I agree with what President Joe Biden said, “Wearing a mask isn’t a political statement.”

Science-deniers gonna deny.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 20, 2020, 11:23:30 AM
Science-deniers gonna deny.

QFT.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on November 20, 2020, 11:26:29 AM
Anyone else here concerned about the 4 p.m. meeting today (Friday) between the two Michigan election officials and Pres. Trump at the White House?

PD

Yes, very much so. I have been following the story for days (they opposed certification, then approved, then tried to renege on approval under pressure from Cheeto Mussolini). Was alarmed at yesterday's announcement that the officials were being summoned to the WH.
I fear this will begin Cheeto's campaign to have Republicans switch states' Electoral votes.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 20, 2020, 11:37:56 AM
Not really. Acceptance of defeat is a long and painful road for some people, especially when they’re a billionaire.

I found some more info here.  I doesn't sound like legally they could change the electors:

"Under Michigan law, its legislature is barred from appointing its own electors who are different from the slate of electors of the presidential candidate who won the popular vote in the state."

This is the whole article:  https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/20/michigan-lawmakers-to-meet-trump-amid-vote-certification-anger.html

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 20, 2020, 11:41:19 AM
How many presidential elections have faithless electors changed, I wonder.  Actually, I don't wonder.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on November 20, 2020, 11:56:48 AM
I found some more info here.  I doesn't sound like legally they could change the electors:

"Under Michigan law, its legislature is barred from appointing its own electors who are different from the slate of electors of the presidential candidate who won the popular vote in the state."

This is the whole article:  https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/20/michigan-lawmakers-to-meet-trump-amid-vote-certification-anger.html

PD

If they've been summoned to the WH, CM is definitely gonna hold a press conference. No doubt scheduled for after the markets close, probably in the 5 PM area.
I've no idea about what will be said in the press conference, but likely something that Cheeto deems significant. One thing I can say with certainty: CM's hair dye will hold up better than Ghouliani's did yesterday...

(https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/106800110-1605875495705-gettyimages-1229689770-ELECTION.jpeg?v=1605895645&w=740&h=416)

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 20, 2020, 12:08:51 PM
If they've been summoned to the WH, CM is definitely gonna hold a press conference. No doubt scheduled for after the markets close, probably in the 5 PM area.
I've no idea about what will be said in the press conference, but likely something that Cheeto deems significant. One thing I can say with certainty: CM's hair dye will hold up better than Ghouliani's did yesterday...

(https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/106800110-1605875495705-gettyimages-1229689770-ELECTION.jpeg?v=1605895645&w=740&h=416)
I'm a bit confused by this article:  https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-called-republican-election-official-in-wayne-county-michigan-who-initially-voted-against-certifying-results/ar-BB1baFQy?pfr=1

"On Tuesday, when the board first took up a motion to certify the county's election results, the vote came out 2-2 — deadlocked along partisan lines, with the Republicans opposing certification.

Palmer offered a compromise: “I would be open to a motion to certify communities other than the city of Detroit.”

An hours-long public comment period followed where the Republican members of the board were called racist for disenfranchising hundreds of thousands of Black voters.

At the end of the meeting, Jonathan Kinloch, the Democratic vice chair, offered a resolution to certify the county's election results that called on Michigan Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson to conduct a comprehensive audit of the county's precincts that recorded unexplained discrepancies between the number of ballots recorded as cast and the number of ballots counted."

"The board unanimously supported Kinloch's resolution."

"Throughout the meeting, Trump continued his quest for victories in states that he lost at the ballot box, making dubious claims to a procedural win in Michigan. He falsely claimed in a tweet that "Michigan just refused to certify the election results." Trump appeared to have confused the Board of State Canvassers with the Wayne County Board of Canvassers. The members of the state board are scheduled to meet Monday to vote on certifying Michigan's election results."

Sooo...o.k., if I'm understanding this correctly, the state board will be voting Monday on certifying Michigan's results, but how can they do this without the Wayne County board certifying at their end?  Or will there be discussion between the two boards on Monday (with what they, the state, found re any big discrepancies, etc. at their end) with then the Wayne County (hopefully) certifying things at their end and then the certification at the state level?  Has Wayne county finally certified things (for sure this time)?

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 20, 2020, 12:12:36 PM
Yes, very much so. I have been following the story for days (they opposed certification, then approved, then tried to renege on approval under pressure from Cheeto Mussolini). Was alarmed at yesterday's announcement that the officials were being summoned to the WH.
I fear this will begin Cheeto's campaign to have Republicans switch states' Electoral votes.

He'll place the Michigan officials in danger of committing a felony.  Of course, Trump regularly consorts with felons, so his blinders are securely fastened.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 20, 2020, 12:17:27 PM
I found some more info here.  I doesn't sound like legally they could change the electors:

"Under Michigan law, its legislature is barred from appointing its own electors who are different from the slate of electors of the presidential candidate who won the popular vote in the state."

This is the whole article:  https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/20/michigan-lawmakers-to-meet-trump-amid-vote-certification-anger.html

PD

Trump is going to have to be escorted out of the White House. There’s no question about it. Whatever ‘legacy’ he had before election night has now been rewritten. He will go down as one of the poorest presidents in our recent history. Hell, James Buchanan and Franklin Pierce actually have better legacies than Trump and that’s not saying much! ;D
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 20, 2020, 12:20:21 PM
Anyone else here concerned about the 4 p.m. meeting today (Friday) between the two Michigan election officials and Pres. Trump at the White House?

PD

I am. Not much, but the "it can't happen here" thought, doesn't apply anymore.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 20, 2020, 12:21:17 PM
Observation of the Day: "A clown with a flamethrower still has a flamethrower."
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 20, 2020, 12:21:37 PM
Observation of the Day: "A clown with a flamethrower still has a flamethrower."

 :laugh:
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 20, 2020, 12:25:40 PM
I'm not just concerned about what these MI election officials will do, because it seems too late to do anything.

However, there is a lot of violence brewing under the surface in MI, and Trump wouldn't bat an eye at pushing these crazy rednecks over the edge, if he doesn't get his way.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 20, 2020, 12:29:47 PM
Yes, very much so. I have been following the story for days (they opposed certification, then approved, then tried to renege on approval under pressure from Cheeto Mussolini). Was alarmed at yesterday's announcement that the officials were being summoned to the WH.
I fear this will begin Cheeto's campaign to have Republicans switch states' Electoral votes.
T.D.  I had made a post after years due to some confusion at my end....but you might have missed it or not seen it yet.
I'm a bit confused by this article:  https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-called-republican-election-official-in-wayne-county-michigan-who-initially-voted-against-certifying-results/ar-BB1baFQy?pfr=1

"On Tuesday, when the board first took up a motion to certify the county's election results, the vote came out 2-2 — deadlocked along partisan lines, with the Republicans opposing certification.

Palmer offered a compromise: “I would be open to a motion to certify communities other than the city of Detroit.”

An hours-long public comment period followed where the Republican members of the board were called racist for disenfranchising hundreds of thousands of Black voters.

At the end of the meeting, Jonathan Kinloch, the Democratic vice chair, offered a resolution to certify the county's election results that called on Michigan Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson to conduct a comprehensive audit of the county's precincts that recorded unexplained discrepancies between the number of ballots recorded as cast and the number of ballots counted."

"The board unanimously supported Kinloch's resolution."

"Throughout the meeting, Trump continued his quest for victories in states that he lost at the ballot box, making dubious claims to a procedural win in Michigan. He falsely claimed in a tweet that "Michigan just refused to certify the election results." Trump appeared to have confused the Board of State Canvassers with the Wayne County Board of Canvassers. The members of the state board are scheduled to meet Monday to vote on certifying Michigan's election results."

Sooo...o.k., if I'm understanding this correctly, the state board will be voting Monday on certifying Michigan's results, but how can they do this without the Wayne County board certifying at their end?  Or will there be discussion between the two boards on Monday (with what they, the state, found re any big discrepancies, etc. at their end) with then the Wayne County (hopefully) certifying things at their end and then the certification at the state level?  Has Wayne county finally certified things (for sure this time)?

PD
Since you have been following this closely, perhaps you know the answer?  I guess my other question, thinking about it, did the 'asking to have their votes rescinded' count?  Just trying to figure out what is going to happen from here (see the above comments/questions by yours truly)?

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on November 20, 2020, 12:30:35 PM
Trump is going to have to be escorted out of the White House. There’s no question about it. Whatever ‘legacy’ he had before election night has now been rewritten. He will go down as one of the poorest presidents in our recent history. Hell, James Buchanan and Franklin Pierce actually have better legacies than Trump and that’s not saying much! ;D

Warren Gamaliel Harding is the benchmark I've always thought of. But his legacy is orders of magnitude better than CM's.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on November 20, 2020, 12:34:23 PM
T.D.  I had made a post after years due to some confusion at my end....but you might have missed it or not seen it yet.Since you have been following this closely, perhaps you know the answer?  I guess my other question, thinking about it, did the 'asking to have their votes rescinded' count?  Just trying to figure out what is going to happen from here (see the above comments/questions by yours truly)?

PD

An article I saw yesterday cited Michigan officials definitively stating that there was no legal mechanism for them to rescind their votes.  Can't recall the source, but Bloomberg and CNBC are the sites I follow.

Here's another link. Google will yield more.

https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2020/11/wayne-county-republicans-cant-rescind-their-votes-to-certify-election-says-secretary-of-state.html

But I fully expect Cheeto to challenge this.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 20, 2020, 12:37:50 PM
I'm not just concerned about what these MI election officials will do, because it seems too late to do anything.

However, there is a lot of violence brewing under the surface in MI, and Trump wouldn't bat an eye at pushing these crazy rednecks over the edge, if he doesn't get his way.
I care because it says a lot 1) that the voters in Detroit have their votes counted and included; 2) what the higher powers-that-be try to do to the electoral college in their state (a constitutional scholar in Harvard thinks that even the meeting between the Republican House and Senate members and Pres. Trump is illegal); and 3) How more of this nonsense (to put it politely) is undermining people's belief in our democratic institutions and the whole electoral process and that their votes matter.

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 20, 2020, 12:40:12 PM
3) How more of this nonsense (to put it politely) is undermining people's belief in our democratic institutions and the whole electoral process and that their votes matter.


The 2020 election had the highest turnout ever, and the highest turnout rate since 1900.  The opposite of your fear just occurred.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 20, 2020, 12:42:34 PM
An article I saw yesterday cited Michigan officials definitively stating that there was no legal mechanism for them to rescind their votes.  Can't recall the source, but Bloomberg and CNBC are the sites I follow.

Here's another link. Google will yield more.

https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2020/11/wayne-county-republicans-cant-rescind-their-votes-to-certify-election-says-secretary-of-state.html

But I fully expect Cheeto to challenge this.

He'll lean on them, and the brain trust maintains that this is not an attempt to steal the election.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 20, 2020, 12:44:32 PM
An article I saw yesterday cited Michigan officials definitively stating that there was no legal mechanism for them to rescind their votes.  Can't recall the source, but Bloomberg and CNBC are the sites I follow.

Here's another link. Google will yield more.

https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2020/11/wayne-county-republicans-cant-rescind-their-votes-to-certify-election-says-secretary-of-state.html

But I fully expect Cheeto to challenge this.
Thanks!  That was a helpful link.  For what its worth, I don't subscribe to Bloomberg, so I can only read X-number of articles a month.

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on November 20, 2020, 12:49:18 PM
Thanks!  That was a helpful link.  For what its worth, I don't subscribe to Bloomberg, so I can only read X-number of articles a month.

PD

I used to work on Wall St., where Bloomberg is an essential data/information source. It's by far the best source of financial news, and I like their reporting in other areas. CNBC was a fixture on trading floors, and I suppose that's why I still follow them.
Bloomberg News subscription is around $35 / month, which I won't do. But I took advantage of a 3 months @ $0.99 per deal a couple of months ago, to get all the election stories.
They often run 3 month promotions, I've seen $0.99 and $1.99 per.
[Disclaimer: I have no connection whatsoever with Bloomberg News.]
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 20, 2020, 12:53:12 PM

The 2020 election had the highest turnout ever, and the highest turnout rate since 1900.  The opposite of your fear just occurred.
What I'm talking about is, in particular, is the post-election comments, lawsuits, continually stating that they have had the election stolen--without any proof, allegations of fraud, etc., etc....trying to have people's votes not count (from those who went to the polls, or mailed in or dropped off absentee votes--including from military members/spouses, and people concerned about Covid and not wanting to go to the polls)...the whole enchilada so to speak.

And who knows, maybe even more people would have either gone to the polls or mailed in ballots if Pres. Trump hadn't gone on and on about mail-in ballots = fraud?

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 20, 2020, 12:54:50 PM
I used to work on Wall St., where Bloomberg is an essential data/information source. It's by far the best source of financial news, and I like their reporting in other areas. CNBC was a fixture on trading floors, and I suppose that's why I still follow them.
Bloomberg News subscription is around $35 / month, which I won't do. But I took advantage of a 3 months @ $0.99 per deal a couple of months ago, to get all the election stories.
They often run 3 month promotions, I've seen $0.99 and $1.99 per.
[Disclaimer: I have no connection whatsoever with Bloomberg News.]
Thank you for the information.   :)

Best wishes,

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 20, 2020, 01:10:54 PM
What I'm talking about is, in particular, is the post-election comments, lawsuits, continually stating that they have had the election stolen--without any proof, allegations of fraud, etc., etc....trying to have people's votes not count (from those who went to the polls, or mailed in or dropped off absentee votes--including from military members/spouses, and people concerned about Covid and not wanting to go to the polls)...the whole enchilada so to speak.

And who knows, maybe even more people would have either gone to the polls or mailed in ballots if Pres. Trump hadn't gone on and on about mail-in ballots = fraud?

PD


On the evidence, Trump's divisive demeanor increased voter participation rather than depressed it. 

If voter turnout declines in 2022, it will not be because of Trump's post election proclamations.  Those will be forgotten by all but self-styled "high information" voters - ie, hyper-partisans.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 20, 2020, 01:25:49 PM

On the evidence, Trump's divisive demeanor increased voter participation rather than depressed it. 

If voter turnout declines in 2022, it will not be because of Trump's post election proclamations.  Those will be forgotten by all but self-styled "high information" voters - ie, hyper-partisans.
No, I think that overall, more people came out because it they felt like it was an important election.  That said, perhaps some people were afraid of voter intimidation and didn't vote or for other reasons.  We'll never know.  That said, I still think that Pres. Trump has done a heck of a lot of harm to not just people's perceptions of whether or not their votes truly count, but about feeling like the election was rigged (despite no evidence), corruption in politics (by some on both sides)...and so much more.  We're a divided nation and his lies have only made things so much worse:  that's maybe the worst thing of all.

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: JBS on November 20, 2020, 01:32:10 PM
Yes, very much so. I have been following the story for days (they opposed certification, then approved, then tried to renege on approval under pressure from Cheeto Mussolini). Was alarmed at yesterday's announcement that the officials were being summoned to the WH.
I fear this will begin Cheeto's campaign to have Republicans switch states' Electoral votes.

For purposes of clarification, Trump did a phone call to the two local officials, but the men going to the WH today are the ranking members of the legislature. They are GOPs. Three of them were invited, but the Speaker of the House declined the invitation.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 20, 2020, 01:48:09 PM
No, I think that overall, more people came out because it they felt like it was an important election.


And the reason it was important was because of Trump.  It was a referendum on his presidency.  He lost.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 20, 2020, 02:45:41 PM
What I'm talking about is, in particular, is the post-election comments, lawsuits, continually stating that they have had the election stolen--without any proof, allegations of fraud, etc., etc....trying to have people's votes not count (from those who went to the polls, or mailed in or dropped off absentee votes--including from military members/spouses, and people concerned about Covid and not wanting to go to the polls)...the whole enchilada so to speak.

And who knows, maybe even more people would have either gone to the polls or mailed in ballots if Pres. Trump hadn't gone on and on about mail-in ballots = fraud?

PD

     The election was not a referendum on Trump's attempt to steal the election. The high turnout is not a sign that he'll fail. If he fails it will be because responsible people in the right places stopped him. That's what I think will happen. People will follow the law and that will be the end of it.

     But let's be clear that Trump had a plan prepared that might have worked if it had come down to a single state and a smaller number of votes.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on November 20, 2020, 03:00:01 PM
As I thought. This is an interesting article:

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-55020428

Can Trump overturn the election result?

...
As doors to remaining in office slam shut, the president appears to be shifting strategies for flipping the election results from a longshot legal one to a longer-shot political gambit.

A step-by-step guide to Trump's strategy
Here's what he may hope to do:

Block the vote-certification process in as many states as possible, either through lawsuits or by encouraging Republican officials to object
Convince Republican-controlled legislatures in states Biden narrowly won to dismiss the results of the popular vote as corrupted by widespread fraud
Have the legislature then award their state's Electoral College votes, which are cast by "electors" on 14 December, to Trump instead of Biden
Do that in enough states - Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania, for instance - to pull Trump from his current total of 232 electoral votes past the winning 269-vote mark
Even pulling Biden from 306 votes might work, because then the election would be decided in the House of Representatives, where even though it's controlled by the Democrats, Trump would have an advantage due to some arcane rules


...
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: SimonNZ on November 20, 2020, 03:11:59 PM
Trump is going to have to be escorted out of the White House. There’s no question about it. Whatever ‘legacy’ he had before election night has now been rewritten. He will go down as one of the poorest presidents in our recent history. Hell, James Buchanan and Franklin Pierce actually have better legacies than Trump and that’s not saying much! ;D

I heard someone half-joke that he'd probably stage his own alternate-venue "real" inauguration for himself on inauguration day and I felt that, yes, that would be perfectly in keeping with everything else from the last five years.

-

Jill Lepore in the New Yorker:

Will Trump Burn the Evidence?
How the President could endanger the official records of one of the most consequential periods in American history. (https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/11/23/will-trump-burn-the-evidence)

^and there's also lots of fascinating info about what became of presidential records through the 19th century in that piece, and of same in the Reagan-Clinton era.


Over the last couple of years I've found historian Jill Lepore to be one of the most intelligent and articulate voices in the compare-and-contrast of the Trump presidency with the norms and practices and attitudes to foundational documents of previous generations.

But I know her mainly from lectures and podcasts and now want to start on her books, particularly her 1000-page These Truths. Has anyone here read it? Or any of her other works?

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91NZ5Cw-4TL.jpg)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 20, 2020, 04:15:05 PM

     The Michigan legislators who met with Trump say they heard nothing that would change the results of the election. In Georgia Hideous Demon Gov. Kemp has decided to follow the law.

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 20, 2020, 04:35:10 PM
I heard someone half-joke that he'd probably stage his own alternate-venue "real" inauguration for himself on inauguration day and I felt that, yes, that would be perfectly in keeping with everything else from the last five years.

I wouldn’t put anything past him. Just when you think he couldn’t go lower, he does and brags about it: ”I’m the greatest. I really am. They thought they had me, but I showed them. I mean has there ever been a president who has done I’ve done? No, nobody has done what I’ve done. They really haven’t.”
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: JBS on November 20, 2020, 06:48:58 PM
I heard someone half-joke that he'd probably stage his own alternate-venue "real" inauguration for himself on inauguration day and I felt that, yes, that would be perfectly in keeping with everything else from the last five years.

-

Jill Lepore in the New Yorker:

Will Trump Burn the Evidence?
How the President could endanger the official records of one of the most consequential periods in American history. (https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/11/23/will-trump-burn-the-evidence)

^and there's also lots of fascinating info about what became of presidential records through the 19th century in that piece, and of same in the Reagan-Clinton era.


Over the last couple of years I've found historian Jill Lepore to be one of the most intelligent and articulate voices in the compare-and-contrast of the Trump presidency with the norms and practices and attitudes to foundational documents of previous generations.

But I know her mainly from lectures and podcasts and now want to start on her books, particularly her 1000-page These Truths. Has anyone here read it? Or any of her other works?

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91NZ5Cw-4TL.jpg)

It seems to have the reputation of being an updated version of Howard Zinn. But I have enough unread books on hand that I am in no rush to add a book of that size to the pile.

I did read this a few years ago, and remember it being well done.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/412BqAdG2QL.jpg)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 21, 2020, 12:54:22 AM
I think what you're seeing this week is that parts of the senior GOP-ers are getting tired of Trump.

He has delivered the tax cuts and hundreds of judges; the usual recipe of letting a D president clean up the mess (in this case rampant Covid and economic disaster) now kicks in.

Trump's idea of letting a washed up loony like Giuliani be his public face kind of sealed it for these folks. In the eyes of old-style Republicans neither Trump nor Giuliani are really Republicans. They're New York people. Bizarre circus animals, married x times over, tabloid show people and totally incapable of acting the trademark GOP gravitas. Cruz isn't too great at it either, but at least he tries.

The Trump Giuliani show has become such a disgusting spectacle, the GOP is eager for this to be over, too.

The next thing is the influence Trump will exert over the GOP in 2020 - 2024.

It could be huge.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 21, 2020, 05:16:04 AM
     The election was not a referendum on Trump's attempt to steal the election. The high turnout is not a sign that he'll fail. If he fails it will be because responsible people in the right places stopped him. That's what I think will happen. People will follow the law and that will be the end of it.

     But let's be clear that Trump had a plan prepared that might have worked if it had come down to a single state and a smaller number of votes.
You lost me there.  Of course the election wasn't a referendum on Trump's attempt to steal the election.

In any event, like you, I think that at least 98% or more of the electors will vote the way that their constituents indicated (from what I recall reading, there are often one or two who are swayed by a phone call to go over to the other party).  I just hope that the GSA will feel like she now has the needed voting results to move ahead with the ascertainment.  It's crazy that particularly in the midst of a pandemic that this is dragging on for so long.  I'm sure that she feels under a lot of pressure to be fair.  I read an interesting article on her recently.


Here:  https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/18/politics/biden-transition-trump-delay/index.html

And this is an article/interview with a former GSA:  https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/19/politics/david-barram-gsa-2020-election-cnntv/index.html

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 21, 2020, 05:58:11 AM
The crazy Trump & Giuliani Show we are "enjoying" has been paid for by Trump supporters who delusionally think this election can be overturned for Trump and donate money for the cause. Both Trump and Giuliani know this is over, but why not extract as much money as possible from the fools before leaving the White House? Coming up with new plans to throw away votes from Democrat-leaning areas keep the donations coming.

Of course this kind of dangerous freak show should never happen in a democracy, but the US is what it is. A nation without a cultural concensus about the vision for the future. Half of the country wants to save the past while the other half wants to save the future. In this tug or war the country is stuck in present time.

My 2 cents (0.02 euros because I am European, not American).
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 21, 2020, 06:16:30 AM
Of course this kind of dangerous freak show should never happen in a democracy, but the US is what it is. A nation without a cultural concensus about the vision for the future. Half of the country wants to save the past while the other half wants to save the future.

This is the case in many nations. Unanimity does not equal democracy.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 21, 2020, 06:31:14 AM
this kind of dangerous freak show should never happen in a democracy

On the contrary, it could happen only in a democracy, especially in an extremely legalistic one such as the USA. By its very nature a monarchy --- be it constitutional or absolute --- has a much more natural and frictionless transition: The King is Dead, Long Live the King!. Not to mention the cases when mad kings where replaced by regents / regencies or sane kings were forced to abdicate --- and none of them raised the slightest objection.  ;D

And frankly I would just love to watch live Trump being forcefully evicted from the White House, a clear sign that the rule of law reigns supreme in the USA despite oh the so numerous claims to the contrary here on GMG.

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 21, 2020, 06:53:44 AM
If you check here, you can see the letter that the Democrats sent to GSA Emily Murphy basically demanding her to get back to them by Monday explaining why she hadn't recognized Biden and Harris as the winners.  One thing that I found very interesting in it (pages 2-3) was that Pres. Trump had quietly changed the order of succession within the GSA department now to include the General Council as fourth in line.  He did this on Sept. 2, 2020.  Then less than a week before the election, Pres. Trump installed Trent J. Benishek as the new GSA General Council.  Then they wonder whether or not she might being subjected to undue pressure from the White House to block the ascertainment.

Quite eyeopening!  Note:  doesn't take that long to read (only 3-page letter).

Rep. Gerry Connolly posted the letter on his Twitter account:  https://twitter.com/GerryConnolly/status/1329594898601926659/photo/1

There are footnotes showing links to where it shows Pres. Trump making the changes to the succession, etc.

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 21, 2020, 06:58:36 AM
On the contrary, it could happen only in a democracy, especially in an extremely legalistic one such as the USA.


Yep.  And it was great.  It seems unlikely that 2022 or 2024 will be quite so wonderfully entertaining.

It is apparently lost on many people that 2020 reinforced how healthy democracy is in the United States.  Turnout was massive.  Large numbers of contests at all levels were close.  Republicans were able to flip seats in some big cities - including New York.  Right in line with Dem desires, the candidates offered were more diverse than normal - from both parties.  Fears of Russian and Chinese (and Iranian!) interference bubbled up here and there in a few sensationalist press stories, but they kind of fizzled.  Gobs and gobs of money were spent everywhere, and fortunately Dems wasted tens of millions based on shoddy polling and organization.  (Someone should probably explain why Amy McGrath should have been funneled so much money when she was just a tomato can.)  And the end result is, yes, Congressional gridlock!  There will be no sweeping repudiations of the Constitution like Dems and "Progressives" the world over have been clamoring for - eg, packing the court - and instead the US will lurch back to a more institutionalist type of administration.  I do wonder which poor country the new administration will bomb first.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 21, 2020, 07:42:43 AM

     The poor country that is most bombed is the US. Trumpists have inflicted a huge total of excess deaths, though the exact toll won't ever be known. We can produce estimates from comparisons with countries in the developed world.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 21, 2020, 08:14:31 AM
The last election lawsuit in Arizona has been tossed out:  https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/elections-2020/judge-tosses-last-election-lawsuit-in-arizona/ar-BB1bekdg
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 21, 2020, 08:30:06 AM

     The dirty little secret pollsters need to own up to (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/11/19/why-were-polls-wrong-ignore-calls/)

Many voters who fit the “Likely Trump Supporter” profile were not willing to do an interview. It was especially hard to interview older men. Similarly, we were less likely to complete interviews with Trump households in Miami’s media market. Whatever the motivation, this behavior almost certainly introduced bias into poll results, dampening apparent support for Trump.

     
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: flyingdutchman on November 21, 2020, 08:43:07 AM
Love John Fetterman the anger translator:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/meet-pennsylvania-anger-translator-donald-150025723.html

Pay up Dan Patrick.

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 21, 2020, 09:39:47 AM
You lost me there.  Of course the election wasn't a referendum on Trump's attempt to steal the election.



     I'm pointing out that the results of the election can't be used to refute Trump's efforts to overturn it. One can predict Trump will fail, and I do. The election itself, though, is no guarantee of that failure. Trump is trying to steal an election he lost, because he lost. The argument that he's not trying to steal it because he lost it is nonsensical.

     Perhaps this novel formulation is motivated by the observation that Trump tried to steal an election in 2016 that he unexpectedly won. I'm trying to be charitable. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/cheesy.gif)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 21, 2020, 09:55:47 AM
The argument that he's not trying to steal it because he lost it is nonsensical.

Q.E.D.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 21, 2020, 10:14:39 AM
     I'm pointing out that the results of the election can't be used to refute Trump's efforts to overturn it. One can predict Trump will fail, and I do. The election itself, though, is no guarantee of that failure. Trump is trying to steal an election he lost, because he lost. The argument that he's not trying to steal it because he lost it is nonsensical.

     Perhaps this novel formulation is motivated by the observation that Trump tried to steal an election in 2016 that he unexpectedly won. I'm trying to be charitable. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/cheesy.gif)
I don't think that anyone here was/is trying to say otherwise?  :)

Best,

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 21, 2020, 10:37:58 AM
I don't think that anyone here was/is trying to say otherwise?  :)

Best,

PD

     I think the Trump strategy is misunderstood. At no point was the quality of the legal cases brought of any relevance. The numerous cases amount to a pretext for public consumption. The real battle is convincing state officials to substitute Biden electors with Trump electors. That's the battle Trump is fighting and losing. Public agitation was supposed to give these champions of healthy democracy cover. It hasn't worked. Trump lost too many states by too many votes.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 21, 2020, 10:47:00 AM
I don't think that anyone here was/is trying to say otherwise?  :)

I think there are two different issues here.

1. Did he try to steal the elections proper? I don't think so, but if people here have and can present solid evidence that he did I'll reconsider.

2. Does he try to change the outcome of the elections? Obviously, but he'll achieve nothing else than making a fool of himself yet again.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 21, 2020, 11:05:07 AM
According to most reporting "strategy" and "Trump" don't go in one sentence very well.

He is just throwing stuff against the wall hoping something will stick.

Inviting those MI lawmakers after they had signed their names to the Wayne County numbers, for instance.

That doesn't make any strategic sense.

He started with a bunch of good lawyers, but when these people saw that they were expected to sell conspiracy madness to the judges, they balked and left.

So now Trump is stuck with Giuliani who can't argue his way out of a paper bag.

Trump has alienated everyone with a modicum of sense and decency. So he's left with a couple of desperados.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on November 21, 2020, 11:14:42 AM
According to most reporting "strategy" and "Trump" don't go in one sentence very well.

He is just throwing stuff against the wall hoping something will stick.

Inviting those MI lawmakers after they had signed their names to the Wayne County numbers, for instance.

That doesn't make any strategic sense.

He started with a bunch of good lawyers, but when these people saw that they were expected to sell conspiracy madness to the judges, they balked and left.

So now Trump is stuck with Giuliani who can't argue his way out of a paper bag.

Trump has alienated everyone with a modicum of sense and decency. So he's left with a couple of desperados.

I really think (as detailed in the BBC article I posted yesterday) the remaining strategy is the elector-switch/substitute gambit.
But it's typical Cheeto Mussolinism to fling as much s**t as possible at the ceiling and hope something sticks.

If you trace CM's bio and business history, he's had a strong tendency to hire lesser-known law firms (+accountants, etc.) with dubious reputations rather than big-name white-shoe ones. A little surprising for someone of his claimed wealth. But it's surely because CM wants to be his own counsel and boss the lawyers around. And, I also suspect, because he has a well-documented record of underpaying / not paying contractors.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 21, 2020, 11:36:59 AM
According to most reporting "strategy" and "Trump" don't go in one sentence very well.

He is just throwing stuff against the wall hoping something will stick.



     I think not. It looks that way because people think real lawyers abandoning ship and Giuliani taking over is strategically significant. It's not, and Giuliani is just as good as a genius lawyer for the intended purpose and perhaps better. He makes the right noises and keeps Trumpists riled up. Trump doesn't need genius lawyers to handle garbage cases. He doesn't want or need to lose these cases any differently than he's doing with Rudy. Are not the judges part of the conspiracy? But of course they are!

     It's not magic, though the legal misdirection has some of that flavor.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 21, 2020, 11:40:49 AM


Trump has alienated everyone with a modicum of sense and decency. So he's left with a couple of desperados.

     Al Capone was right. You can accomplish more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone. The Michigan Proud Boys chickened out. Blame them, not Trump.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on November 21, 2020, 03:09:34 PM
https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-55030617

Republican officials in Michigan have written to the state's electoral board to request a two-week adjournment.

They have called for an audit of the presidential vote in the largest county, home to Detroit, after it was contested by President Donald Trump.

However, the Michigan Department of State has quickly objected to the idea, saying delays and audits are not permitted by law.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 21, 2020, 03:13:12 PM
     I think the Trump strategy is misunderstood. At no point was the quality of the legal cases brought of any relevance. The numerous cases amount to a pretext for public consumption. The real battle is convincing state officials to substitute Biden electors with Trump electors. That's the battle Trump is fighting and losing. Public agitation was supposed to give these champions of healthy democracy cover. It hasn't worked. Trump lost too many states by too many votes.
Perhaps that was his strategy or maybe a combo of "We'll see what sticks and trying to rile up his most fervent of voters to to help encourage the electors too switch?"  Or maybe even some cover?  I don't know and try not to be that cynical to be honest.

I did see this at my end (from a BBC article today)--an extract:

"Republican officials in Michigan have written to the state's electoral board to request a two-week adjournment.
They have called for an audit of the presidential vote in the largest county, home to Detroit, after it was contested by President Donald Trump.
However, the Michigan Department of State has quickly objected to the idea, saying delays and audits are not permitted by law.
Democrat Joe Biden was projected as the state's winner earlier this month.
The Michigan electoral board, made up of two Democrats and two Republicans, is set to meet on Monday and certify election results.
Their decision has to be signed off by Michigan's secretary of state and then the governor, both Democrats and so is unlikely to support any changes, without substantiated reasoning.
The state department has called claims of widespread fraud, repeated by President Trump and the local Republicans, "wholly meritless".

Here's the whole article here:  https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-55030617

I'd like to know who the "Republican officials" were/are mentioned herein.

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 21, 2020, 03:14:41 PM
https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-55030617

Republican officials in Michigan have written to the state's electoral board to request a two-week adjournment.

They have called for an audit of the presidential vote in the largest county, home to Detroit, after it was contested by President Donald Trump.

However, the Michigan Department of State has quickly objected to the idea, saying delays and audits are not permitted by law.

We're posting at the same time about the same article! I was slower at my end (doing some edits, etc.) though.

Best,

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: milk on November 21, 2020, 03:15:49 PM
Maybe I should move to Japan --- it sounds like my kind of place. :)
Japan hasn’t had serious lockdowns either. It’s definitely impacted the economy a lot though. But social distancing is sort of a cultural feature. It can be a real negative in terms of mental and societal health, but it probably saved Japan from COVID.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 21, 2020, 03:22:42 PM
Perhaps that was his strategy or maybe a combo of "We'll see what sticks and trying to rile up his most fervent of voters to to help encourage the electors too switch?"



     That's what I just said. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/angry.gif) (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/angry.gif) (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/angry.gif) Trump came up one Reichstag fire short is all. The Good People On Both Sides failed to appear.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 21, 2020, 11:32:29 PM
     Trump came up one Reichstag fire short is all.

I try hard to make sense of this phrase. I really do.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 22, 2020, 12:59:16 AM
Quote
Trump came up one Reichstag fire short is all. The Good People On Both Sides failed to appear.

There are two months left
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 22, 2020, 01:29:34 AM
     I think not. It looks that way because people think real lawyers abandoning ship and Giuliani taking over is strategically significant. It's not, and Giuliani is just as good as a genius lawyer for the intended purpose and perhaps better. He makes the right noises and keeps Trumpists riled up. Trump doesn't need genius lawyers to handle garbage cases. He doesn't want or need to lose these cases any differently than he's doing with Rudy. Are not the judges part of the conspiracy? But of course they are!

     It's not magic, though the legal misdirection has some of that flavor.

Short of staging an actual non pseudo-legal coup in December (which would be hard since the generals are not thus inclined) what Trump is now about is is stoking resentment and anger among his base, so he'll keep calling the shots after January 20.

People who are thinking some kind of normal will return when Biden is in the (thoroughly disinfected hopefully)  White House may be in for a disappointment. There's nothing that will keep Trump from tweeting to his tens of millions of followers, keeping the flame of "rigged election" and "stop the steal" alive. In that way he'll keep Republican leadership in thrall, too.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 22, 2020, 03:14:55 AM
what Trump is now about

Trump is already history. This de facto situation will be established de jure on December 12, 2020 and will be effective January 20, 2021. Anyone who after that will still be commenting on what Trump does says and twitters will prove ipso facto that TDS is real.

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 22, 2020, 03:55:34 AM
     That's what I just said. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/angry.gif) (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/angry.gif) (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/angry.gif) Trump came up one Reichstag fire short is all. The Good People On Both Sides failed to appear.



Location: Watertown, MA« Reply #463 on: November 21, 2020, 11:36:59 AM »
Quote
Quote from: Herman on November 21, 2020, 11:05:07 AM
According to most reporting "strategy" and "Trump" don't go in one sentence very well.

He is just throwing stuff against the wall hoping something will stick.


Your response Drogulus:
    I think not. It looks that way because people think real lawyers abandoning ship and Giuliani taking over is strategically significant. It's not, and Giuliani is just as good as a genius lawyer for the intended purpose and perhaps better. He makes the right noises and keeps Trumpists riled up. Trump doesn't need genius lawyers to handle garbage cases. He doesn't want or need to lose these cases any differently than he's doing with Rudy. Are not the judges part of the conspiracy? But of course they are!

     It's not magic, though the legal misdirection has some of that flavor.
Too much quoting for me to do properly here.  You can scroll back to see my response which you then replied to.  So I don't understand why the 'angry faces' at me?  :(

Best wishes,

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: BasilValentine on November 22, 2020, 04:51:06 AM
Short of staging an actual non pseudo-legal coup in December (which would be hard since the generals are not thus inclined) what Trump is now about is is stoking resentment and anger among his base, so he'll keep calling the shots after January 20.

People who are thinking some kind of normal will return when Biden is in the (thoroughly disinfected hopefully)  White House may be in for a disappointment. There's nothing that will keep Trump from tweeting to his tens of millions of followers, keeping the flame of "rigged election" and "stop the steal" alive. In that way he'll keep Republican leadership in thrall, too.

So convicted and jailed felons have unlimited internet access? :)

Reichstag fire? He was hoping for scary urban violence in Detroit and Philadelphia, but PA judges shut down his provocation there and in MI the certification of the vote today, if, as seems likely, that happens, will end that threat. He's still working on Arizona.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 22, 2020, 06:00:06 AM
Reichstag fire? He was hoping for scary urban violence in Detroit and Philadelphia, but PA judges shut down his provocation there and in MI the certification of the vote today, if, as seems likely, that happens, will end that threat.

Wait a minute! Are you saying that the rule of law is up and running in the USA under Trump's presidency? My, my...

Es gibt noch Richter in Berlin Die Vereinigten Staaten! --- if you know what I mean.  ;D
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 22, 2020, 06:10:10 AM
So convicted and jailed felons have unlimited internet access? :)

my assumption is this is not going to happen...
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 22, 2020, 06:41:09 AM
December 14th is when the Electoral College meets, and January 6th is when Congress tallies the votes and declares the new President.  Super-Creepy 46 takes power at noon on January 20, 2021.

I got only one date correct out of three. I stand corrected but my argument stands nevertheless.

Quote
Trump may announce his candidacy for the 2024 race.  This serves several purposes.  It keeps him relevant.  It also provides potential legal cover for his alleged nefarious deeds.  It would be somewhat unseemly for the party in power to actually prosecute a high profile political opponent.  Even if Trump does not announce and run, it will prove a bit tricky politically for feds to vigorously pursue Trump.  But he will remain more significant than most prior presidents when leaving office.  This is distinct from TDS, which is a very real thing.

I really wonder: who was the very first POTUS to be widely regarded and publicly denounced as a traitor to the FF's ideals, as a would-be dictator and as one whose nefarious legacy would take decades to undo? My uneducated guess is that Trump is not that very first.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: JBS on November 22, 2020, 06:44:12 AM
I got only one date correct out of three. I stand corrected but my argument stands nevertheless.

I really wonder: who was the very first POTUS to be widely regarded and publicly denounced as a traitor to the FF's ideals, as a would-be dictator and as one whose nefarious legacy would take decades to undo? My uneducated guess is that Trump is not that very first.

John Adams, followed closely by Thomas Jefferson.
Although it was a bit too early for people to use the word "legacy".
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 22, 2020, 07:00:53 AM
John Adams, followed closely by Thomas Jefferson.

Good company for Donald, eh?  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 22, 2020, 07:06:45 AM
A feel good story from the failing New York Times: Republican Resistance Looms in the Senate for Biden’s Nominees (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/20/us/politics/biden-nominees-senate-republicans.html?searchResultPosition=1)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 22, 2020, 07:14:31 AM
John Adams, followed closely by Thomas Jefferson.
Although it was a bit too early for people to use the word "legacy".

Am I correct in thinking that the only universally admired and unanimously uncontroversial POTUS was George Washington, and that after him everything went downhill headlong along those partisan lines he dreaded so much albeit naively? Am I correct in thinking that Trump has been no more divisive and hated today than Andrew Jackson has been in his time? Am I correct in thinking that nihil novum sub sole?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 22, 2020, 07:21:37 AM
Am I correct in thinking that the only universally admired and unanimously uncontroversial POTUS was George Washington, and that after him everything went downhill headlong along those partisan lines he dreaded so much albeit naively? Am I correct in thinking that Trump has been no more divisive and hated today than Andrew Jackson has been in his time? Am I correct in thinking that nihil novum sub sole?


You are incorrect.  George Washington was not universally admired and certainly was not unanimously uncontroversial, not even close. 
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 22, 2020, 07:28:24 AM

You are incorrect.  George Washington was not universally admired and certainly was not unanimously uncontroversial, not even close.

Hah!  :D :D :D

So he was the first traitor and would-be dictator?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 22, 2020, 07:41:13 AM
Hah!  :D :D :D

So he was the first traitor and would-be dictator?


Well, he may have secretly wanted to be king, you see.  And there was the Whiskey Rebellion kerfuffle.  And his general lack of ability and intelligence - if some of his famous subordinates were and are to be believed.

Here's a good quote from 1796:

Quote from: Thomas Paine
The world will be puzzled to decide whether you are an apostate or an impostor; whether you have abandoned good principles, or whether you ever had any.


But Trump and the hyperpartisanship of the here and now are unique and special and are clear and present dangers to the survival of the republic itself.  Don't you ever forget it.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 22, 2020, 07:46:10 AM

Well, he may have secretly wanted to be king, you see.  And there was the Whiskey Rebellion kerfuffle.  And his general lack of ability and intelligence - if some of his famous subordinates were and are to be believed.

Here's a good quote from 1796:

Nihil novum sub sole...

Quote
But Trump and the hyperpartisanship of the here and now are unique and special and are clear and present dangers to the survival of the republic itself.  Don't you ever forget it.

...except Trump.







Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 22, 2020, 07:53:05 AM
     From an interview on NPR;

FADEL: So remind our listeners why you say this is an example of fascist behavior.

STANLEY: So fascism is a cult of the leader who promises national restoration in the face of supposed humiliation by minorities, liberals and immigrants. He represents the cities as corrupt, filled with foreigners and disease, and the heartland as the true nation that he represents. And then he takes over a political party, transforms them into a cult of the leader and says only he can deal with the problem.


     As a general description this should suffice. It's not custom designed to fit Trump, it's how fascist behavior has been understood since long before Trump appeared. There are reasons to object that Trump doesn't make the cut. One is the lack of a manifesto, another is that the government is not fascist notwithstanding Trump's efforts. I leave it up to my fellow pseudos to decide.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 22, 2020, 08:17:50 AM
     From an interview on NPR;

FADEL: So remind our listeners why you say this is an example of fascist behavior.

STANLEY: So fascism is a cult of the leader who promises national restoration in the face of supposed humiliation by minorities, liberals and immigrants.

Bah humbug! There were no minorities and immigrants in Italy when Mussolini took power.

Quote
He represents the cities as corrupt, filled with foreigners and disease, and the heartland as the true nation that he represents.

Bah humbug! Mussolini appealed --- quite succesfully --- to both city and countryside, and if anything he promoted modernist architecture of the kind one still sees in Rome and other big cities, not in any countryside. And the Fascist intellectuals were all urbanites.

Quote
And then he takes over a political party, transforms them into a cult of the leader and says only he can deal with the problem.

Bah humbug! Mussolini started as a Socialist but he never took over that party, he created his own.

   
Quote
As a general description this should suffice.

Only for people completely ignorant of history.

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 22, 2020, 08:34:42 AM
   There are reasons to object that Trump doesn't make the cut. One is the lack of a manifesto, another is that the government is not fascist notwithstanding Trump's efforts.

Anyone with a modicum of historical awareness and knowledge could rightly argue that Caesar, Louis XIV or Napoleon Bonaparte exhibited traits that can be regarded as Fascist. Nobody with a modicum of historical awareness and knowledge could seriously claim that they were Fascist.

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 22, 2020, 08:42:45 AM
Agreed. He'd better spend it educating himself on what Fascism really is.


It is not uncommon for people to fixate on what are ultimately distractions.  For some, it's Fascism.  For some, it's Communism.  For some it's Antifa.  For some, it's Proud Boys, et al.  For some, it's Russia.  For some, it's radical Islamic terrorism.  For some, it's immigration.  And yet the republic lumbers on, occasionally making "progress", sometimes regressing, and often pummeling small, weak countries.  Even Orange Man could not change that.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 22, 2020, 09:08:56 AM

It is not uncommon for people to fixate on what are ultimately distractions.  For some, it's Fascism.  For some, it's Communism. 

Much to the shock and horror of Herman, I'll say that if given a retrospective choice between living in Mussolini's Italy or in Ceaușescu's Romania I'd choose the former without hesitation; and better still I'd choose Trump's USA over both.

For the record, in Riomanian context I have always called myself a liberal and I've always voted for a party called National Liberal Party or for a coalition wherein this party took part (except when they were allied with the Social-Democrats, when I voted a party called Liberal Democratic Party --- so I was still a liberal voter). I've been called a leftist by conservatives and a reactionary by progressives. I guess I'm a centrist. Actually, I know I am a centrist.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 22, 2020, 09:23:26 AM
often pummeling small, weak countries. 

I wonder which will be the next such country?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 22, 2020, 09:30:24 AM
I wonder which will be the next such country?


There are so many to choose from!  And no country or combination of countries can stop the USA from engaging in unilateral military action against small, weak countries.  Were I to bet, I'd say some hapless African country, though the Greater Middle East needs a good bombing on a regular basis.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 22, 2020, 09:38:43 AM
Were I to bet, I'd say some hapless African country,

Such as Lybia, which is nowadays all but destroyed following Trump's orders and actions?

No, wait, it's been actually Bush II's.

No, wait, it's been actually.... oh, my! Oh, my! Am I a Trumpist for saying Obama's?


Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Sterna on November 22, 2020, 09:50:38 AM
Such as Lybia, which is nowadays all but destroyed following Trump's orders and actions?

No, wait, it's been actually Bush II's.

No, wait, it's been actually.... oh, my! Oh, my! Am I a Trumpist for saying Obama's?

Why bother?

Trump is history.
Bush II is history.
Obama is history.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Zeus on November 22, 2020, 09:54:10 AM
Here's a simple theory explaining why GOP candidates did relatively well, even while Trump was handed a solid defeat.

If you give people three choices, there's a natural tendency to take the middle choice.  For example, if a store offers three headphones of increasing quality, one for $199, one for $399, and one for $599, then more than a third will take the middle choice.  Simplistic I know, but bear with me.

If in the political landscape, you have three choices
 1) Democrats
 2) Republicans
 3) Batshit Crazy Trumpites
then, facing these choices, ordinary Republicans might seem like a safe middle-ground choice.

In fact, electors made several choices at once.  But many apparently split their ticket – against Trump, but for more reasonable Republicans down-ticket.  Simple choice theory offers an explanation why.

Don't know if I believe this or not, but it's an interesting thought.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 22, 2020, 09:57:37 AM
Why bother?

Trump is history.
Bush II is history.
Obama is history.

Correct, but Trump directly impacted the USA history only; Bush II and Obama (and Clinton foir that matter) directly impacted the history of other countries as well.





Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 22, 2020, 10:14:10 AM
Such as Lybia, which is nowadays all but destroyed following Trump's orders and actions?


See, Libya can be counted as both part of Africa and the Greater Middle East.  That doubles its chances.  Sucks to be Libya.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 22, 2020, 10:15:16 AM

See, Libya can be counted as both part of Africa and the Greater Middle East.  That doubles its chances.  Sucks to be Libya.

What puzzles me, though, is why the Socialist Obama attacked the Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya?

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 22, 2020, 03:38:41 PM
Florestan, as another example of there being nothing new under the sun, here are two instructive quotes, from over two centuries apart:

Quote from: Burleigh, in the Connecticut Courant, 1800
Mr. Jefferson wishes to destroy the constitution of the United States.

Quote from: Jill Lepore, in The New Yorker, November 23, 2020
The Trump Presidency nearly destroyed the United States.

Perhaps one of these quotes is true.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 22, 2020, 03:41:19 PM
Anyone with a modicum of historical awareness and knowledge could rightly argue that Caesar, Louis XIV or Napoleon Bonaparte exhibited traits that can be regarded as Fascist. Nobody with a modicum of historical awareness and knowledge could seriously claim that they were Fascist.



     Quite so, and no one does. Fascism is a reaction to the political trends of modernity, particularly liberalism and the threat it poses to tradition. Caesar comes closest as a precursor though there was nothing liberal about the oligarchy he challenged. He was a tribune though, and one sees why fascists admired him.

     The fascist category is one of family resemblance and not one of rigid designation. Mussolini didn't adopt an overtly antisemitic program until the '30s, Hitler's was from the outset. Once you get past their commonalities like autocracy, hatred of liberalism, nationalism and appeal to violence against internal enemies one finds differences in aesthetics, for example.

     Where the scholarly discussion irks me somewhat is I get the impression that Trump's ambitions are treated as though his inability to realize them proves they don't count. Nor is there much said about how Trump should be distinguished from what he's fighting against, as though nothing more should be said than what it isn't.

     
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: SimonNZ on November 22, 2020, 03:46:38 PM
Trump is already history. This de facto situation will be established de jure on December 12, 2020 and will be effective January 20, 2021. Anyone who after that will still be commenting on what Trump does says and twitters will prove ipso facto that TDS is real.

I seem to recall some months back when people were saying Trump is the kind of person who would refuse to concede the election you felt this was preposterous, described it as TDS, and demanded that if and when Trump did loose and bowed out graciously that everyone here had to admit they suffered from TDS.

If people are still commenting on Trump after Jan 20 it will be because he will still be trying to sow dissent and division and subvert democratic institutions. And because the last five years need studying.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 22, 2020, 04:12:23 PM
And because the last five years need studying.

     He not a fascist so there's nothing to study. It's one of those "nothing ever" changes.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 22, 2020, 04:27:29 PM

     To be clear, I'm amenable to using a different word for the Trumpist phenomenon. If Trumpism is sufficiently different from historical examples then we should try to understand it according to the differences instead of dismissing it as derangement of some kind. If the support of American fascists isn't enough to make Trump one of their own, we still have to figure out why they support him. I think we've done that. If Trump isn't a "real" fascist, he'll do until a real one comes along.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 22, 2020, 05:21:45 PM

If folks want to try to minimize the historical importance and moral disgrace of a US President who is a wannabe autocrat by casuistic squabbling over the word "fascist," yes they're dilly-dallying over a distraction.  Very Trumpian, incidentally
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: flyingdutchman on November 22, 2020, 08:01:22 PM
I think it illuminating to see how abnormal Trump has been in the history of the US. We can point to various past presidents who have exhibited traits that can be described as autocratic. Whether fascism is the word or philosophy to use may be considered by some to be a stretch, I see a man who has used the Justice Dept. for his own bidding. He's eliminated dissent wherever it has popped its head up, and he sought dirt on his main opponent (Biden) from a foreign state in 2019 and clearly begged Russia for the same in 2016. He's been the worst president in this country's history and has made moves to trash our alliances and destroy our standing in the world.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on November 22, 2020, 08:36:59 PM
I think it illuminating to see how abnormal Trump has been in the history of the US. We can point to various past presidents who have exhibited traits that can be described as autocratic. Whether fascism is the word or philosophy to use may be considered by some to be a stretch, I see a man who has used the Justice Dept. for his own bidding. He's eliminated dissent wherever it has popped its head up, and he sought dirt on his main opponent (Biden) from a foreign state in 2019 and clearly begged Russia for the same in 2016. He's been the worst president in this country's history and has made moves to trash our alliances and destroy our standing in the world.

Back in 2015, even before the emergence of Cheeto Mussolini, I was bothered by certain political developments (e.g. the claimed rights of fundamentalist Christians to refuse service to gays) which reminded me of "First they came...", and made a point of reading Hannah Arendt's The origins of totalitarianism. Not a perfect book but informative. There is certainly similarity between Arendt's "totalitarianism" and the CM/alternative media/alt-right/conspiracy theory axis.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: SimonNZ on November 22, 2020, 08:43:49 PM
Back in 2015, even before the emergence of Cheeto Mussolini, I was bothered by certain political developments (e.g. the claimed rights of fundamentalist Christians to refuse service to gays) which reminded me of "First they came...", and made a point of reading Hannah Arendt's The origins of totalitarianism. Not a perfect book but informative. There is certainly similarity between Arendt's "totalitarianism" and the CM/alternative media/alt-right/conspiracy theory axis.

My favorite sign from the protests over the Muslim Travel Ban seven days after his inauguration, and one of my favorites across the whole Trump era was: "First They Came For The Muslims And We Said...Not This Time, Motherfucker."
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 23, 2020, 12:42:19 AM
What puzzles me, though, is why the Socialist Obama attacked the Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya?

I believe after this message this topic was shut down for a while, again.

Why do you, as a non-American engage in deliberatie disinformation and propaganda, calling people "traitor" and doing the "Socialist Obama" spiel?

Obama is not a socialist, he is a moderate Democrat who could easily have been a Republican twenty years ago.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 23, 2020, 12:49:22 AM
Obama is not a socialist, he is a moderate Democrat who could easily have been a Republican twenty years ago.

I know all this alright. My post about the "Socialist" Obama attacking the Socialist Lybian Jamahiria was tongue in cheek but I forgot to put the scare quotes and an emoticon at the end. Apparently this caused a storm in a glass of water.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 23, 2020, 08:43:33 AM
What puzzles me, though, is why the Socialist Obama attacked the Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya?

Obama is not a socialist. He is a centrist corporate. He read Karl Marx to impress and get laid with a lefty chick in the university. Later he campaigned as a left-leaning Dem to become the president, but governed as a corporate implementing Republican healthcare plan and starting endless wars. He is not at all interested of lefty ideology beyond cynical exploitation of it. Obama is the enemy of the left. He stopped Bernie last spring. Horrible selfish man and I have been a complete fool not to see it until a few years back when I got into the US politics better.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 23, 2020, 08:43:52 AM
For your information, as many of you probably already know, Michigan is one of the states planning/hoping to certify it's votes today.  I did a bit of googling and found out that the Michigan Board of State Canvassers' meeting [a virtual one] is at 1 p.m. today (I found this out via the Detroit Freepress online).  One can watch it live online.  Also, they are taking questions from the public:

"The public can comment on the meeting in writing or speak at the meeting. Requests must be submitted by signing up on the department's website here.

Members of the public who wish to speak at the meeting will be invited based on the order in which the request is received. They will have up to 3 minutes to address the board and can expect to receive information about how to log on to the webinar by the email they provide in the sign-up form."

https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/23/will-michigan-certify-election-results/6388530002/ [They will embed the video on their website when it goes live; they also have a link to the youtube site which will be broadcasting it live in this article.].

Apparently, one of the board member, a Republican, has stated that he will vote against the certification.  That means then that the other Republican and the two Democrats will have to vote for it to pass.  He (sorry, I forget his name at the moment) apparently wants there to be an audit first, but legally, they have to first certify the votes and only then could there be an audit, etc.

PD

p.s.  Has anyone here heard more about what is going on with the GSA's Emily Murphy?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on November 23, 2020, 09:11:57 AM
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/23/trump-appeals-pennsylvania-vote-case-seeking-to-block-biden-.html

The Trump campaign’s appeal of its devastating loss in federal court in Pennsylvania misspells the word “president” and butchers grammar.

The appeal filed Monday also does not ask an appeals court to reverse its defeat or temporarily block Pennsylvania counties’ certification of votes, which are due Monday.

Instead, the appeal at the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals for the 3rd Circuit effectively asks for a do-over of its so-far-botched legal effort to invalidate enough votes in Pennsylvania to overturn a projected victory for President-elect Joe Biden.

The campaign wants the appeals court to allow it to pursue a second amended lawsuit, which the lower court judge effectively barred them from doing with his ruling Saturday.

The appeal appears to be as much of a long shot as the case that it is based on. But it could speed up what the Trump campaign says is its plan to get the case heard by the U.S. Supreme Court.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Fëanor on November 23, 2020, 09:24:19 AM
I seem to recall some months back when people were saying Trump is the kind of person who would refuse to concede the election you felt this was preposterous, described it as TDS, and demanded that if and when Trump did loose and bowed out graciously that everyone here had to admit they suffered from TDS.

If people are still commenting on Trump after Jan 20 it will be because he will still be trying to sow dissent and division and subvert democratic institutions. And because the last five years need studying.

Donald Trump is a pathological narcissist, (see ... Narcissistic Personality Disorder (https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20366662)).  To him it is impossible to admit defeat and rejection;  instead he is psychologically compelled blame his defeat on opponents' cheating and fraud.

In the dark corners of his psyche Trump foresaw his defeat and began to construct his excuse around that he had heard that Democrats would disproportionately vote by mail-in ballot.  But note that this myth exploded once the mailed ballot aspect played out:  now there is all sorts of claims around huge quantities of false ballots, stolen ballots, dirty vote counters, etc., etc..

What is so sad for our American friends is that millions have bought Trump's big lie at face value despite its obvious origin and purpose.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 23, 2020, 09:37:26 AM
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/23/trump-appeals-pennsylvania-vote-case-seeking-to-block-biden-.html

The Trump campaign’s appeal of its devastating loss in federal court in Pennsylvania misspells the word “president” and butchers grammar.

The appeal filed Monday also does not ask an appeals court to reverse its defeat or temporarily block Pennsylvania counties’ certification of votes, which are due Monday.

Instead, the appeal at the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals for the 3rd Circuit effectively asks for a do-over of its so-far-botched legal effort to invalidate enough votes in Pennsylvania to overturn a projected victory for President-elect Joe Biden.

The campaign wants the appeals court to allow it to pursue a second amended lawsuit, which the lower court judge effectively barred them from doing with his ruling Saturday.

The appeal appears to be as much of a long shot as the case that it is based on. But it could speed up what the Trump campaign says is its plan to get the case heard by the U.S. Supreme Court.
This part would be laughable if it weren't such a serious matter:

"In another pending long-shot case, Pennsylvania Republicans, including Rep. Mike Kelly filed a complaint in Commonwealth Court seeking to stop certain kinds of mail-in ballots from being included in the state’s final tally.

The plaintiffs seek to block the certification of the election in the state, claiming that mail-in ballots cast under an allegedly “unconstitutional” law signed last year by Pennsylvania Gov. Tom Wolf, a Democrat, cannot be counted.

The law, Act 77, expanded access for Pennsylvania voters to cast mail-in ballots without an excuse.

After the lawsuit was filed, observers quickly pointed out that Act 77 passed a GOP-controlled Pennsylvania state legislature in 2019 with overwhelming support."

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 23, 2020, 09:39:19 AM
Donald Trump is a pathological narcissist, (see ... Narcissistic Personality Disorder (https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20366662)).  To him it is impossible to admit defeat and rejection;  instead he is psychologically compelled blame his defeat on opponents' cheating and fraud.

In the dark corners of his psyche Trump foresaw his defeat and began to construct his excuse around that he had heard that Democrats would disproportionately vote by mail-in ballot.  But note that this myth exploded once the mailed ballot aspect played out:  now there is all sorts of claims around huge quantities of false ballots, stolen ballots, dirty vote counters, etc., etc..

What is so sad for our American friends is that millions have bought Trump's big lie at face value despite its obvious origin and purpose.
And Pres. Trump has even voted by mail himself too (though not during this election)!  ::)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 23, 2020, 09:42:05 AM
     



p.s.  Has anyone here heard more about what is going on with the GSA's Emily Murphy?


     Emily Murphy is supposed to brief House committees today on her refusal to start the official transition. That's all I know.

     She is supposed to ascertain the apparent winner. The Universe with a Murphy shaped hole in it knows Biden is the winner, and that's all there is to ascertainment.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 23, 2020, 10:09:13 AM
     

     Emily Murphy is supposed to brief House committees today on her refusal to start the official transition. That's all I know.

     She is supposed to ascertain the apparent winner. The Universe with a Murphy shaped hole in it knows Biden is the winner, and that's all there is to ascertainment.
Yes, that's the last that I had heard too.

I really hope that the Michigan vote isn't split.  Oh, the remote live-stream has started here.  https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/23/will-michigan-certify-election-results/6388530002/


PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Fëanor on November 23, 2020, 10:16:22 AM
     To be clear, I'm amenable to using a different word for the Trumpist phenomenon. If Trumpism is sufficiently different from historical examples then we should try to understand it according to the differences instead of dismissing it as derangement of some kind. If the support of American fascists isn't enough to make Trump one of their own, we still have to figure out why they support him. I think we've done that. If Trump isn't a "real" fascist, he'll do until a real one comes along.

I believe that Trump's latest and most dangerous attack on American democracy is his "big lie" that the recent election was stolen from him by fraud and cheating.  There wasn't and isn't any objectively credible evidence of this, however it is important to realized that millions of Americans believe it, (including Trump himself).

I believe this myth of the stolen election will be used by Trump to grab the '24 Republican nomination and work the myth for election to a 2nd term -- if that happens who knows what further attacks on democracy will ensue?  It won't be pretty, though.  If Trump's health declines it's no cause to celebrate because some Trump protege will step up to take his place.

Fareed Zakaria of CNN drew a parallel to the "stabbed in the back" myth of post-WWI Germany which was instrumental in the rise of German right-wing populism and eventually the Naze regime.  This myth held that socialist, Communists, and Jew undermined the (military-controlled) German government on the brink of victory, causing the defeat of Germany and the end of the monarchy.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on November 23, 2020, 10:33:13 AM
I believe that Trump's latest and most dangerous attack on American democracy is his "big lie" that the recent election was stolen from him by fraud and cheating.  There wasn't and isn't any objectively credible evidence of this, however it is important to realized that millions of Americans believe it, (including Trump himself).

I believe this myth of the stolen election will be used by Trump to grab the '24 Republican nomination and work the myth for election to a 2nd term -- if that happens who knows what further attacks on democracy will ensue?  It won't be pretty, though.  If Trump's health declines it's no cause to celebrate because some Trump protege will step up to take his place.

Fareed Zakaria of CNN drew a parallel to the "stabbed in the back" myth of post-WWI Germany which was instrumental in the rise of German right-wing populism and eventually the Nazi regime.  This myth held that socialist, Communists, and Jew undermined the (military-controlled) German government on the brink of victory, causing the defeat of Germany and the end of the monarchy.

[Emphasis added] A very good point. And it won't even have to be a Cheeto Mussolini protege (sorry, I simply can't speak or type "T***p"). IMO all this s**t simply reflects the new GOP game plan.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: steve ridgway on November 23, 2020, 10:44:41 AM
I guess Trump follows the currently popular philosophy of “never give up on your dream, keep fighting and you will get what you want in the end” ::).
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 23, 2020, 10:44:48 AM


     
Yes, that's the last that I had heard too.

I really hope that the Michigan vote isn't split.  Oh, the remote live-stream has started here.  https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/23/will-michigan-certify-election-results/6388530002/


PD


     You can watch on C-SPAN.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 23, 2020, 10:47:32 AM
Fareed Zakaria of CNN drew a parallel to the "stabbed in the back" myth of post-WWI Germany which was instrumental in the rise of German right-wing populism and eventually the Naze regime.  This myth held that socialist, Communists, and Jew undermined the (military-controlled) German government on the brink of victory, causing the defeat of Germany and the end of the monarchy.


Does he have a book he's peddling?  (Yes, as it turns out.)

And, yes, maybe the US follows the example of Germany, the only example that exists.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 23, 2020, 10:49:33 AM
I guess Trump follows the currently popular philosophy of “never give up on your dream, keep fighting and you will get what you want in the end” ::).

 :D :D :D

A sentiment most vividly expressed by the greatest purveyor of this pseudo-philosophcal crap, Paulo Coelho: 'And, when you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it.' Maybe Trump is a fan?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 23, 2020, 11:00:07 AM
     

Does he have a book he's peddling?  (Yes, as it turns out.)

And, yes, maybe the US follows the example of Germany, the only example that exists.

     The American example could be used. After all, Hitler was influenced by our own CSA. He certainly appreciated the Lost Cause and US race laws.

     
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 23, 2020, 11:02:49 AM
I think that this poll from Seven Letter Insight was quite interesting.  Republicans and Democrats were ask various questions as to who and what they would support including issues like for or against a peaceful transition to a Biden presidency, etc.:  https://thehill.com/homenews/527138-two-thirds-of-gop-voters-support-trump-running-for-president-in-2024-survey

Currently, I'm listening to the live Michigan Board of State Canvassers meeting...quite interesting to hear from Christopher Thomas who "is a fellow with BPC’s Democracy Project. Thomas is retired from the Michigan Department of State on June 30, 2017 after 40 years of election administration service, which included 36 years as Michigan’s Director of Elections. Thomas worked for Democratic and Republican Secretaries of State.
While employed by the Michigan Secretary of State, Thomas administered the Michigan election law, campaign finance act and lobbyist disclosure law and served as Secretary to Board of State Canvassers. He began his election administration career in 1974 in Washington, D.C. with the Clerk of the U.S. House of Representatives and the Federal Election Commission."

And now Daniel Baxter:  https://www.eac.gov/sites/default/files/event_document/files/BIOv.2.Daniel%20A.%20Baxter.pdf

Norman Shinkle (on the board) grilled Christopher Thomas about what reasons one could adjourn and delay the vote (per Michigan statute).  Mr. Thomas, towards the end, that he didn't know.... maybe if one or two people were sick, but that basically, the board must vote and didn't have any reason to wait forty days.

I don't know how many of your general populace will be allowed to speak (as of the beginning of the meeting, over 700 had signed up to either speak or have their comments read).

PD

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 23, 2020, 11:06:29 AM

     
     You can watch on C-SPAN.
Thanks.  It's streaming fine at the other website, but nice to know that there are options!  :)

Are you watching it Drogulus?

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 23, 2020, 11:08:42 AM
I guess Trump follows the currently popular philosophy of “never give up on your dream, keep fighting and you will get what you want in the end” ::).

     (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41SthiR-R6L._SX322_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

     Trump says he was inspired by this book. In particular it told him to never admit defeat.

Thanks.  It's streaming fine at the other website, but nice to know that there are options!  :)

Are you watching it Drogulus?

PD

     It's on another tab while I defeat fascism in this one. So, I'm listening along.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 23, 2020, 11:16:11 AM
     It's on another tab while I defeat fascism in this one. So, I'm listening along.

Goldarnit! Are you doing enough against Communism, though?!
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 23, 2020, 11:31:37 AM
Goldarnit! Are you doing enough against Communism, though?!

     No matter what I do, it's never enough.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 23, 2020, 11:42:48 AM
     No matter what I do, it's never enough.

I feel ya.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on November 23, 2020, 11:48:44 AM
Some levity:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/23/trump-fears-giuliani-and-other-biden-vote-challenge-lawyers-are-fools.html
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 23, 2020, 11:56:37 AM
     (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41SthiR-R6L._SX322_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

     Trump says he was inspired by this book. In particular it told him to never admit defeat.

     It's on another tab while I defeat fascism in this one. So, I'm listening along.
You're a busy man!

I can see that Mr. Shinkle is not to be swayed.  :(

Interesting to hear the comments and debate.

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 23, 2020, 12:01:02 PM
Some levity:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/23/trump-fears-giuliani-and-other-biden-vote-challenge-lawyers-are-fools.html
He should just disassociate from everyone, non?  :-\

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 23, 2020, 12:12:54 PM
You're a busy man!

I can see that Mr. Shinkle is not to be swayed.  :(

Interesting to hear the comments and debate.

PD

     He's taking the position that a post certification audit or recount can happen before he certifies the result. For this he wants to adjourn. That's exactly how much sense it makes. He wants what he can't have.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 23, 2020, 12:30:12 PM
     He's taking the position that a post certification audit or recount can happen before he certifies the result. For this he wants to adjourn. That's exactly how much sense it makes. He wants what he can't have.
I know.  He and a lawyer (sorry, I don't recall his name) are trying to argue that this is applicable:  Section 168.842.  The lawyer, in particular, got into it with Aaron Van Langevelde — Republican, vice chair in which he was arguing that the state canvassers did have more authority (basically, that it didn't need to be defined specifically) vs. what Mr. Van Langevelde was arguing.

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 23, 2020, 12:43:48 PM
Wow, the mayor of Jackson MI, Derek Dobies, has a contribution to the hearing at the board of canvassers, talking about the harrassment by Republican "observers" during the vote counting .
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 23, 2020, 12:55:03 PM
I know.  He and a lawyer (sorry, I don't recall his name) are trying to argue that this is applicable:  Section 168.842. 
PD

The board has power to adjourn from time to time to await the receipt or correction of returns, or for other necessary purposes, but shall complete the canvass and announce their determination not later than the fortieth day after the election.

     There's no other necessary purpose for the board to adjourn. They have a quorum. Any audit or recount would come after certification.

     Brater just made the point. We can put this one to rest.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on November 23, 2020, 12:58:45 PM
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/23/trump-loses-pennsylvania-ballot-lawsuit-seeking-to-block-biden-win.html
Trump campaign suffers new court loss in attempt to block Biden’s win in Pennsylvania
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 23, 2020, 01:23:41 PM
A non-party affiliated observer, named Elizabeth Temkin (from the U of M), talks about the relentless harrassment she observed coming from Republican affiliated observers during the vote counting at a city precinct (i.e. many black voters). She spent seven hours there as an observer and noted that some of the Republican observers challenged every single ballot just to make life miserable for the counters and to slow down the process as much as possible.

Another UofM student, Sean Brennan (speaking from the beautiful Law School building), talks about similar behavior at the vote counting location in Ann Arbor; Republican observers harrassing vote counters unmasked, getting too close and challenging every singe ballot indiscriminatedly, which is against the law. When this Law Student told him this, the Republican observer said he wasn't there to observe the law but to do what the republican party told him to do. Sabotage the count.

This is also worthwhile since the Diner Cop thought it was his task to mention that A Trump had not attempted to steal the elections and B there had been no voter harrassment, so all those predictions were false.

Alternative facts...

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 23, 2020, 01:47:58 PM
The Sweaty Clown Car's Wolverine State boondoggle is over:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/michigan-vote-certification/2020/11/23/c435ed24-2d52-11eb-bae0-50bb17126614_story.html
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 23, 2020, 01:49:40 PM
This is also worthwhile since the Diner Cop thought it was his task to mention that A Trump had not attempted to steal the elections and B there had been no voter harrassment, so all those predictions were false.


Contrary to what has been written on GMG, Trump did not attempt to steal the election.

Question to moderators, does Herman get a pass on using nicknames for board members, as opposed to politicians?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 23, 2020, 01:52:34 PM
The Sweaty Clown Car's Wolverine State boondoggle is over:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/michigan-vote-certification/2020/11/23/c435ed24-2d52-11eb-bae0-50bb17126614_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/michigan-vote-certification/2020/11/23/c435ed24-2d52-11eb-bae0-50bb17126614_story.html)

Incidentally: Detroit had more vote errors in 2016 when Trump won Michigan by a narrow margin. He didn’t object then.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: BasilValentine on November 23, 2020, 02:37:37 PM

Contrary to what has been written on GMG, Trump did not attempt to steal the election.


Of course he didn't! How could anyone think threatening state legislators in order to coerce their disenfranchisement of millions of voters in Michigan was an effort to steal an election? That's just absurd.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 23, 2020, 02:49:31 PM
Of course he didn't! How could anyone think threatening state legislators in order to coerce their disenfranchisement of millions of voters in Michigan was an effort to steal an election? That's just absurd.


I should like to see evidence that supports this.  Preferably, it would meet a standard rather higher than the evidence offered for his impeachment trial.

Last I saw, in the failing New York Times, Michigan certified the vote for Biden, so all the sound and fury was and is for nothing.

Maybe Trump's nefarious deeds in the Wolverine State can be added to the voluminous list of charges that can be brought in 2021, or whenever.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: SimonNZ on November 23, 2020, 03:04:51 PM
Strange how prevalent this illogical argument is: that if Trump didn't succeed in doing something that proves he wasn't trying in the first place. That the efforts of those who battled Trump and stopped it from happening needn't have bothered in the first place because they ultimately succeeded thereby proving it was never necessary.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 23, 2020, 03:35:27 PM

     


Last I saw, in the failing New York Times, Michigan certified the vote for Biden, so all the sound and fury was and is for nothing.


     If Trump stops fighting, the noise will die down.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on November 23, 2020, 03:36:55 PM
https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-health-national-security-rob-portman-coronavirus-pandemic-ac923137dfb664e5c3a1923f52eebbad

WASHINGTON (AP) — The General Services Administration has ascertained that President-elect Joe Biden is the “apparent winner” of the Nov. 3 election. President Donald Trump, who had refused to concede the election, said Monday that he is directing his team to cooperate on the transition but is vowing to keep up the fight.

The move clears the way for the start of the transition from Trump’s administration and allows Biden to coordinate with federal agencies on plans for taking over on Jan. 20.

An official said Administrator Emily Murphy made the determination after Trump efforts to subvert the vote failed across battleground states, most recently in Michigan, which certified Biden’s victory Monday.

“Please know that I came to my decision independently, based on the law and available facts. I was never directly or indirectly pressured by any Executive Branch official—including those who work at the White House or GSA—with regard to the substance or timing of my decision,” Murphy wrote in a letter to Biden.

Trump tweeted shortly after her letter was made public: “Our case STRONGLY continues, we will keep up the good... fight, and I believe we will prevail! Nevertheless, in the best interest of our Country, I am recommending that Emily and her team do what needs to be done with regard to initial protocols, and have told my team to do the same.”

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 23, 2020, 03:44:42 PM
Strange how prevalent this illogical argument is: that if Trump didn't succeed in doing something that proves he wasn't trying in the first place. That the efforts of those who battled Trump and stopped it from happening needn't have bothered in the first place because they ultimately succeeded thereby proving it was never necessary.

It's of a piece with the "since the mugshots of those conspiring to kidnap the Governor of Michigan appear to be a bunch of knuckle-draggers, conspiring to kidnap the Governor of Michigan cannot be a crime worth our notice."
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 23, 2020, 03:56:50 PM
     

     At last, our time has come!

     (https://cosmonaut.blog/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/cpa-unifiedcpaloco.gif)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: milk on November 23, 2020, 05:24:22 PM

I should like to see evidence that supports this.  Preferably, it would meet a standard rather higher than the evidence offered for his impeachment trial.

Last I saw, in the failing New York Times, Michigan certified the vote for Biden, so all the sound and fury was and is for nothing.

Maybe Trump's nefarious deeds in the Wolverine State can be added to the voluminous list of charges that can be brought in 2021, or whenever.
It’s fine to be a stickler on these things. And then you stop short. But it’d be gaslighting to say Trum isn’t doing damage. Millions of people live in a dangerous alternate reality where dark forces have outright stolen the election. Trum as nurtured this since the summer and uses it to further weaken the possibility of consensus on basic facts in America. Some republicans have gone along with this. He hasn’t stolen the election, though he wants to. I’m not sure what you think. Sometimes you’ve seemed to intimate that this kind of chaos is good because it weakens the federal government. Maybe I’ve misunderstood you. It’s a little frightening to me to have family members who are basically hysterical in their conspiracy world - one that trump has encouraged from the beginning. There are definitely negative consequences here. Ultimately, I find it much more interesting to argue about ideas but a swath of Americans are arguing about conspiracies. This is not good.   
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 23, 2020, 06:20:55 PM
But it’d be gaslighting to say Trum isn’t doing damage.

Trump has done damage.  In some cases, specifically pertaining to existing international security arrangements and mechanisms, such damage is badly needed.  Much more is needed.  But that will have to wait.  Depending on how one views other policies he has pursued - most of which are variants of existing Republican policy preferences - he can be said to have done damage to all manner of "liberal" shibboleths.  That is sometimes good, sometimes bad.  Mostly it is good.  One can argue that Trump eroded trust in the press, but the improvement in the financial condition of at least some news outlets contradicts that, and one would have to view a decrease in trust in the press in the broader context of decades long changes and a more splintered media environment, which Trump did not create.  I constantly see statements that Trump has eroded trust in democracy and democratic institutions, but the incontrovertible evidence regarding voter turnout and the nature of many races this year directly contradicts that.  Trump will fade from memory over time, his unilateral actions will in some cases be reversed or altered - though in some cases they will not - and existing political institutions will survive and adapt.  The republic will survive. 

It often seems that Trump has created dueling cults of personality.  There are his avid followers, people who voted for him and believed him, but there are also his vociferous opponents, some of whom write and say hysterical things, and who attribute power to him, political or otherwise, that he simply does not possess.


He hasn’t stolen the election, though he wants to. I’m not sure what you think.

I do not claim to know what Trump really wants.  No one on this forum knows that.  They believe certain things, though.  That's fine.  But belief is not fact.  Belief is not knowledge.  I think it is safe to believe Trump wanted to be reelected, and he has engaged in all manner of legal actions to maintain power, but unless someone has actual evidence that he has violated statutes - not norms, but statutes - in his actions, the complaints are merely ideological.  That's also fine, but it is not factual. 


Sometimes you’ve seemed to intimate that this kind of chaos is good because it weakens the federal government.

I have been very clear for many years that chaos and dysfunction that weakens the federal government is unambiguously good and should be encouraged at all times. 
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 23, 2020, 08:00:41 PM
It’s fine to be a stickler on these things. And then you stop short. But it’d be gaslighting to say Trum isn’t doing damage. Millions of people live in a dangerous alternate reality where dark forces have outright stolen the election.

     The manly militia men who were supposed to play their part decided to spend more time with their families. It wasn't supposed to be that way. As a result of their treachery, Repubs were intimidated into obeying the law.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 23, 2020, 08:30:42 PM
     Trump tells us what he thinks. I don't see how "not knowing very much about it" applies. We are beyond reasonable doubt here. If his "American Carnage" had showed up on schedule it might have given his toadies the courage of their lack of convictions.

     I have a theory, something along the lines of a beauty contest process.  As the court cases collapsed Repubs began to think that other Repubs were thinking Trump was finished and may not protect them from the consequences of their evil deeds. It snowballed into a Repub hellscape of legality.

     It's maybe a little bit paranoid, but put yourself in the mind of a Repub who's not entirely on board with QAnon and trying to maintain bourgeois respectability.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: milk on November 23, 2020, 09:32:57 PM
Trump has done damage.  In some cases, specifically pertaining to existing international security arrangements and mechanisms, such damage is badly needed.  Much more is needed.  But that will have to wait.  Depending on how one views other policies he has pursued - most of which are variants of existing Republican policy preferences - he can be said to have done damage to all manner of "liberal" shibboleths.  That is sometimes good, sometimes bad.  Mostly it is good.  One can argue that Trump eroded trust in the press, but the improvement in the financial condition of at least some news outlets contradicts that, and one would have to view a decrease in trust in the press in the broader context of decades long changes and a more splintered media environment, which Trump did not create.  I constantly see statements that Trump has eroded trust in democracy and democratic institutions, but the incontrovertible evidence regarding voter turnout and the nature of many races this year directly contradicts that.  Trump will fade from memory over time, his unilateral actions will in some cases be reversed or altered - though in some cases they will not - and existing political institutions will survive and adapt.  The republic will survive. 

It often seems that Trump has created dueling cults of personality.  There are his avid followers, people who voted for him and believed him, but there are also his vociferous opponents, some of whom write and say hysterical things, and who attribute power to him, political or otherwise, that he simply does not possess.


I do not claim to know what Trump really wants.  No one on this forum knows that.  They believe certain things, though.  That's fine.  But belief is not fact.  Belief is not knowledge.  I think it is safe to believe Trump wanted to be reelected, and he has engaged in all manner of legal actions to maintain power, but unless someone has actual evidence that he has violated statutes - not norms, but statutes - in his actions, the complaints are merely ideological.  That's also fine, but it is not factual. 


I have been very clear for many years that chaos and dysfunction that weakens the federal government is unambiguously good and should be encouraged at all times.
Thanks for the clarifications. I disagree with you on a few points here (voter turnout is not the only measure of democracies’ health) but mostly it makes sense to me though, again, I don’t desire all/most of the same political outcomes as you.  I understand that some voters disregarded his gory personality because of policy while others, living in some bizarro world, actually like him.   
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 23, 2020, 09:48:30 PM

     It would be terrible if Trump managed to steal a low turnout election. Would it be better if turnout was high? I'm not sophisticated enough to see how.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 23, 2020, 09:59:47 PM

     Conservative snowflake Bret Stephens has thoughts on Weimar America.

     Trump Contrives His Stab-in-the-Back Myth (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/23/opinion/trump-biden-conspiracy-theory.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage)

In case certain readers think I’m making a comparison between Trump supporters and Nazis, let me emphasize that I am not. What I am saying is that this modern-day Dolchstosslegende, like surf pounding against a bluff, abets future demagogues by eroding public confidence in democratic institutions, until, unprotected, they collapse.

No comparison with the Weimar years is complete without noting that the republic wasn’t just done in. It did a lot to do itself in, too, mostly through economic mismanagement. All the more reason to wish the Biden administration well as it navigates crises that now include some of the most disreputable opponents our own republic has ever known.


     All is forgiven for mentioning economic mismanagement.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: milk on November 23, 2020, 10:59:23 PM
How much of Trum’s ugly ascendency is an outcome of social media? I’m still not seeing the good side of that either (although here I am typing away).
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: MusicTurner on November 24, 2020, 12:20:47 AM
I've noted that this time Twitter, which in spite of its reputation can actually be a good and extremely updated news source as regards links to in-depth journalist stories or live reporting, including on-site videos, has become too flooded with propaganda-, extremist- or very simple-minded spamming, so that you'll struggle between 100s of tweets to find something of value there. Which is sad and generally corroding.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 24, 2020, 01:11:46 AM
Trump will fade from memory over time, his unilateral actions will in some cases be reversed or altered - though in some cases they will not - and existing political institutions will survive and adapt.  The republic will survive. 

It often seems that Trump has created dueling cults of personality.  There are his avid followers, people who voted for him and believed him, but there are also his vociferous opponents, some of whom write and say hysterical things, and who attribute power to him, political or otherwise, that he simply does not possess.

This.

And related to the last paragraph: the polarization has become so sharp that the mere stating of facts contradicting, or expressing of opinions not in line with, anti-Trumpism automatically turns one into a Trumpist.

Quote
I think it is safe to believe Trump wanted to be reelected, and he has engaged in all manner of legal actions to maintain power, but unless someone has actual evidence that he has violated statutes - not norms, but statutes - in his actions, the complaints are merely ideological.  That's also fine, but it is not factual. 

And this.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: milk on November 24, 2020, 01:53:13 AM
This.

And related to the last paragraph: the polarization has become so sharp that the mere stating of facts contradicting, or expressing of opinions not in line with, anti-Trumpism automatically turns one into a Trumpist.

And this.

It’s a beehive, as my friend said to me. No one can talk about anything anymore (aside from on this friendly forum). But I’m so glad for tump to be gone. He’s made it worse for sure. And no one can match him for lies and hysterics.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 24, 2020, 02:02:26 AM
Twitter has always been the worst.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 24, 2020, 03:11:58 AM
Those testimonies in the Michigan hearings yesterday were intriguing.

I cannot tell if these were merely anecdotal or whether they pointed to systematic attempts by observers from the Republican party, to intimidate and harrass the volunteers counting the ballots. Getting too close, challenging every single ballot, deliberately going without a mask and shouting and breathing on the people counting the ballots.

There was this kid from UM Law School, who I had expected (based on his preppy hale looks) to be a Republican, who talked about this observer who shouted at him that he wasn't there to observe the law, but to do what the party had told him.

I'd like some more reporting on this behavior. If this kind of low jinks happened all over the country.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 24, 2020, 04:06:04 AM
Those testimonies in the Michigan hearings yesterday were intriguing.

I cannot tell if these were merely anecdotal or whether they pointed to systematic attempts by observers from the Republican party, to intimidate and harrass the volunteers counting the ballots. Getting too close, challenging every single ballot, deliberately going without a mask and shouting and breathing on the people counting the ballots.

There was this kid from UM Law School, who I had expected (based on his preppy hale looks) to be a Republican, who talked about this observer who shouted at him that he wasn't there to observe the law, but to do what the party had told him.

I'd like some more reporting on this behavior. If this kind of low jinks happened all over the country.
Yes, I'd like to know if/how/when/where these kind of things happened.  Looking at some footage on the Detroit Free Press's website, things were 'hairy' to say the least outside of at least one polling area.

Woke up to great news this morning:  DSA Emily Murphy has ascertained the election.  Copy here of the letter that she sent to President-Elect Joe Biden:  http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/11/23/gsa.biden.pdf

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 24, 2020, 05:00:54 AM
Just hearing a story on CNN now about dark money and ghost candidates who siphoned off votes to help other republicans win three positions in the Florida senate race.  It might not be illegal, but it certainly should be!

https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/23/politics/florida-dark-money-mystery-invs/index.html

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 24, 2020, 05:54:08 AM
voter turnout is not the only measure of democracies’ health

True, but underlying the massive turnout were equally massive get out the vote drives, fundraisers, outreach programs, social media campaigns, etc.  Trump was the catalyst, but it took huge efforts by a lot of people to result in what happened November 3.  A lot of people have such a bizarre fixation on Trump, and so wholly believe the standard press narrative about failing democratic institutions and such forth, that they ignore what just happened. 


And related to the last paragraph: the polarization has become so sharp that the mere stating of facts contradicting, or expressing of opinions not in line with, anti-Trumpism automatically turns one into a Trumpist.

It's groupthink.  A lot of places, and a lot of internet forums, display it. 
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 24, 2020, 06:19:36 AM
How much of Trum’s ugly ascendency is an outcome of social media? I’m still not seeing the good side of that either (although here I am typing away).

     What's new is everyone has a printing press for their radical screeds. The content resembles past episodes of mass hysteria.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Fëanor on November 24, 2020, 06:55:37 AM
Just hearing a story on CNN now about dark money and ghost candidates who siphoned off votes to help other republicans win three positions in the Florida senate race.  It might not be illegal, but it certainly should be!

https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/23/politics/florida-dark-money-mystery-invs/index.html

PD

Trumpettes were asked to believe that only Democrats would cheat ... humm.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: arpeggio on November 24, 2020, 07:03:20 AM
The bottom line is that if the conservative view of reality was correct, Trump would have won the election with over 51% of the popular vote.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 24, 2020, 07:16:11 AM
this is third grade logic; the same as Trump used to use when he said "But I'm the president and you're not"  -  usually to reporters to had no desire to be president.

The reason why the evidence at the impeachment hearing went nowhere was that there were more republicans than democrats in the room.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 24, 2020, 07:23:46 AM
     Roger Stone-Tied Group Threatens GOP: If Trump Goes Down, So Does Your Senate Majority (https://www.thedailybeast.com/roger-stone-tied-group-threatens-gop-if-trump-goes-down-so-does-your-senate-majority?ref=home)

The effort is representative of a broader push among some of President Trump’s most devoted supporters to withhold support for the two Georgia Republican senators facing competitive runoff challenges, Kelly Loeffler and David Perdue, in the hope of leveraging the party’s fear of losing the U.S. Senate to get more establishment backing for their drive to change the result of the election. The goal, those operatives say, is to expose a supposed vast election-fraud conspiracy abetted by high-level Republicans in Georgia’s state government, including Gov. Brian Kemp and Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger.

     This is starting to remind me of the existentialist Godfather who makes you an offer no one understands.

     GMG groupthinkers should be baffled by this. We might have to regroup to confront this challenge.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 24, 2020, 07:26:18 AM
The bottom line is that if the conservative view of reality was correct, Trump would have won the election with over 51% of the popular vote.

If I understand your logic correctly,  the conservative view of reality was correct in 1984 when Reagan won 58.8% of the popular vote (and 525 electoral votes, the most ever), carrying all states but Minnesota and the District of Columbia. Is that right?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: arpeggio on November 24, 2020, 09:09:35 AM
If I understand your logic correctly,  the conservative view of reality was correct in 1984 when Reagan won 58.8% of the popular vote (and 525 electoral votes, the most ever), carrying all states but Minnesota and the District of Columbia. Is that right?

No.  Your statement is based on the supposition that the Republicans of today are just like the Republicans of thirty-five years ago.  Back then the Republicans had a better grasp of reality.  I was a Reagan conservative and the Republicans of today are nothing like the Republicans of 1980.  The party has changed.  One can not compare the the Republicans of today with the Republicans of 1980.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 24, 2020, 09:32:37 AM
No.  Your statement is based on the supposition that the Republicans of today are just like the Republicans of thirty-five years ago.  Back then the Republicans had a better grasp of reality.  I was a Reagan conservative and the Republicans of today are nothing like the Republicans of 1980.  The party has changed.  One can not compare the the Republicans of today with the Republicans of 1980.

Yes, the Republicans had a much better grasp of reality in the 80's. Reagan was a mixed bag, but superior to the Republican 21st century presidents G. W. Bush and D. Trump. Obama was "Reagan of the 21st century", also a mixed bag president.

Both the Republicans and the Democrats have moved to the right on economic issues since the 80's. On social issues (gay marriage etc.) the Dems have been moving to left. On economic issues the corporate Dems today are what the Republicans used to be back in the 80's. ObamaCare for example is originally a Republican healthcare plan from the 80's. If you liked the Republicans of the 80's, corporate Dems of today should be your cup of tea unless you find them too liberal on social issues that is...
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 24, 2020, 11:13:32 AM
No.  Your statement is based on the supposition that the Republicans of today are just like the Republicans of thirty-five years ago.  Back then the Republicans had a better grasp of reality.  I was a Reagan conservative and the Republicans of today are nothing like the Republicans of 1980.  The party has changed.  One can not compare the the Republicans of today with the Republicans of 1980.

None of this answers my question (it was a question, not a statement) but never mind.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: arpeggio on November 24, 2020, 11:40:28 AM
None of this answers my question (it was a question, not a statement) but never mind.

I thought I did answer your question.  The Republicans in the 1980's had a better grasp of reality.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 24, 2020, 12:38:32 PM
I did answer your question.  The Republicans in the 1980's had a better grasp of reality.

Indeed. Any grasp of reality would be a better grasp.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 24, 2020, 01:11:16 PM

     Will we get transition missiles from Lil Kim? Watch the skies.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: MusicTurner on November 24, 2020, 02:46:58 PM
Twitter has always been the worst.

Sorry, no. You can be ahead of most media & identify what they'll only later revise, and find a lot of real journalist material there, especially via links, for subjects not covered that much by main media, as I said. The problem is that it's been increasingly invaded by organized propaganda on a large scale, and ignorant or crazy, or ignorant+crazy, stuff.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Zeus on November 24, 2020, 05:18:05 PM
Trump has done damage. 

I particularly enjoyed watching Trump's attacks on the rule of law.  Good for lawyers' wallets, and everybody else.

Nothing more invigorating than being forced to fight for what you believe in.

All is for the best in the best of all possible countries.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: milk on November 24, 2020, 05:26:49 PM
It Actually Was a Landslide: 80 Million Votes and Counting For Biden
The “red mirage” has vanished to reveal a blue mandate for President-Elect Joe Biden
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/landslide-80-million-votes-biden-trump-1092217/
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 24, 2020, 05:58:40 PM
I particularly enjoyed watching Trump's attacks on the rule of law.

It was fun to watch, especially with the thumping the rule of law gave Trump.


It Actually Was a Landslide: 80 Million Votes and Counting For Biden
The “red mirage” has vanished to reveal a blue mandate for President-Elect Joe Biden
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/landslide-80-million-votes-biden-trump-1092217/

Biden received 51.1% of the vote.  By definition, that is not a landslide, no matter how large the font.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 24, 2020, 06:15:26 PM
Local yokels in action: Portland progressives plot recall effort against Mayor Ted Wheeler, Commissioner Dan Ryan (https://www.oregonlive.com/politics/2020/11/portland-progressives-plot-recall-effort-against-mayor-ted-wheeler-commissioner-dan-ryan.html)

Ted Wheeler was a turd over the summer, but newbie Dan Ryan's recall worthy offense was not supporting a move to defund the police.  National politics may settle down, but Stumptown progressives are just getting started.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: milk on November 24, 2020, 07:36:14 PM
It was fun to watch, especially with the thumping the rule of law gave Trump.


Biden received 51.1% of the vote.  By definition, that is not a landslide, no matter how large the font.
Granted. Regan (only in the second election) and Nixon did much better.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 25, 2020, 12:40:08 AM
While Trump and Barr are preparing the pardons they'll issue, they're speeding up the executions in the various states where the death penalty is still, barbarously, on the books.

No president in the 20th century has allowed death sentences to be executed during the lame duck months. Trump, as we know since the Central Park Five, actually feels better when people get killed at his behest.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 25, 2020, 01:10:51 AM
It was fun to watch, especially with the thumping the rule of law gave Trump.

What's even funnier is how many people here see Trump's "Fascist" presidency as evidence that the USA has become a banana republic, when in fact the last four years have proved exactly the opposite, namely that the USA is not a banana republic. In a banana republic Trump would have been proclaimed president for life by the parliament and confimed as such by a national referendum; opposition politicians, journalists, bloggers etc would have been killed, jailed or (self-) exiled; any trace of a free press would have disappeared; the judiciary would have turned into a branch of the executive, taking orders (and obeying them unconditionally) directly from Trump; the economy would have been mismanaged and ruined; most people would have barely made it from day to day; and an armed clandestine opposition movement would have started a civil war, possibly with USA backup and financing. Of course, none of these happened in the USA during Trump's "Fascist" presidency, better said Trump did not even try to achieve them, unsubstantiated allegations to the contrary notwithstanding. Now, if he didn't try because he did not want them, then he is not a true Fascist; if he didn't try because he feared legal consequences, then he is still not a true Fascist, because a true Fascist would have taken seriously the Fascist lema "Vivere pericolosamente!" and taken his chances. This is what Mussolini, a true Fascist, did with the March on Rome: he gambled and won.

Besides, if someone like Trump had been really able to damage and render effectiveless the rule of law in, and the democratic institutions of, the USA then they wouldn't have been worth much to begin with. But that's obviously not the case. The rule of law has been up and running during Trump's "Fascist" presidency and lost no opportunity to give him the middle finger. And if he will persist till the end in his misguided stubborness it might even give him a nice pair of handcuffs and a nicely dressed police escort --- and as I said before, that would really make my day because it'll be the ultimate evidence for what I've maintained all these four years, namely that the USA has never been anything else than a constitutional republic ruled by law.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 25, 2020, 01:30:42 AM
Biden received 51.1% of the vote.  By definition, that is not a landslide, no matter how large the font.

Biden did not get the landslide he should have gotten against Trump. Biden should have won about 400 electoral votes against an incompetent fool, but he did not because the corporate Dems suck.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 25, 2020, 01:40:29 AM
I'm generally not a partisan of death penalty but sometimes ny views on the matter are seriously challenged. For instance in this case:

Prosecutors say Bourgeois tortured, sexually molested, and then beat his two-and-a-half-year-old daughter to death. Court records say Bourgeois repeatedly beat the young girl and punched her in the face, whipped her with an electrical cord and beat her with a belt so hard that it broke. He also allegedly burned her feet with a cigarette lighter and hit her in the head with a baseball bat until her head swelled.

I do wonder if such a person really deserves to be fed and clothed and have his health attended at the expenses of the public in the hope that someday he'll turn into a normal human being worth being reintegrated in the society.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 25, 2020, 01:57:33 AM
I'm generally not a partisan of death penalty but sometimes ny views on the matter are seriously challenged. For instance in this case:

Prosecutors say Bourgeois tortured, sexually molested, and then beat his two-and-a-half-year-old daughter to death. Court records say Bourgeois repeatedly beat the young girl and punched her in the face, whipped her with an electrical cord and beat her with a belt so hard that it broke. He also allegedly burned her feet with a cigarette lighter and hit her in the head with a baseball bat until her head swelled.

I do wonder if such a person really deserves to be fed and clothed and have his health attended at the expenses of the public in the hope that someday he'll turn into a normal human being worth being reintegrated in the society.

Who is this Bourgeois monster you are talking about? The worst Romanian person ever?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 25, 2020, 02:02:52 AM
Who is this Bourgeois monster you are talking about?

One of the three persons scheduled to be executed iin the USA in the next two months. (See post #585)


Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: MusicTurner on November 25, 2020, 02:05:16 AM
Death penalty also illustrates the brutality of the surrounding society implementing it, cf. China etc. I don't know how many American movies I've seen pointing to the sadistic death of various low- and high-level criminals, or undefined exotic natives, as a very deserved one ...
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Que on November 25, 2020, 02:13:02 AM

I do wonder if such a person really deserves to be fed and clothed and have his health attended at the expenses of the public in the hope that someday he'll turn into a normal human being worth being reintegrated in the society.

I think we'll have to accept that reintegration is not for everyone, but that doesn't mean we have to kill them.
In the Netherlands life is life (incarceration till you die) and the incarnation of the criminally insane can be prolonged indefinitely (and in many cases is)
 
There is that infamous statement of George W Bush in which he said that he would in favour of abolishing the death penalty if he thought ever an innocent persont had been put to death. Of course, there have been several cases of innocent put to death. In most cases later proven by DNA tests, or by dismissal of purposely fabricated evidence or false testimonies.

Q
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 25, 2020, 02:19:50 AM
What's even funnier is how many people here see Trump's "Fascist" presidency as evidence that the USA has become a banana republic, when in fact the last four years have proved exactly the opposite, namely that the USA is not a banana republic. In a banana republic Trump would have been proclaimed president for life by the parliament and confimed as such by a national referendum; opposition politicians, journalists, bloggers etc would have been killed, jailed or (self-) exiled; any trace of a free press would have disappeared; the judiciary would have turned into a branch of the executive, taking orders (and obeying them unconditionally) directly from Trump; the economy would have been mismanaged and ruined; most people would have barely made it from day to day; and an armed clandestine opposition movement would have started a civil war, possibly with USA backup and financing. Of course, none of these happened in the USA during Trump's "Fascist" presidency, better said Trump did not even try to achieve them, unsubstantiated allegations to the contrary notwithstanding. Now, if he didn't try because he did not want them, then he is not a true Fascist; if he didn't try because he feared legal consequences, then he is still not a true Fascist, because a true Fascist would have taken seriously the Fascist lema "Vivere pericolosamente!" and taken his chances. This is what Mussolini, a true Fascist, did with the March on Rome: he gambled and won.

I never claimed all of this will happen, but Trump's actions moved the US a bit closer to a place like this. Instead of 100 yards away, the US is 94 yards away. If the US presidents keep moving the country to this direction, someday it becomes a banana republic. According to TYT there was a 1-10 % chance Trump manages to do a coup. The problem of this all is it normalizes non-democratic rethoric. From now on it is "normal" for the president of the US to attack journalists and demand millions of votes not to be counted. Democracy will erode if it is not protected, and Trump defenitely did not protect democracy. All we can hope is Biden can move the country back to where it was before Trump.

Besides, if someone like Trump had been really able to damage and render effectiveless the rule of law in, and the democratic institutions of, the USA then they wouldn't have been worth much to begin with. But that's obviously not the case. The rule of law has been up and running during Trump's "Fascist" presidency and lost no opportunity to give him the middle finger. And if he will persist till the end in his misguided stubborness it might even give him a nice pair of handcuffs and a nicely dressed police escort --- and as I said before, that would really make my day because it'll be the ultimate evidence for what I've maintained all these four years, namely that the USA has never been anything else than a constitutional republic ruled by law.

The US has had a two-tier system of law. Mild sentences for the rich, harsh sentences for the poor/non-white.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 25, 2020, 02:22:27 AM
One of the three persons scheduled to be executed iin the USA in the next two months. (See post #585)

Oh. Thanks. Sorry, I have been lazy to read this thread in my efforts to engage less in the US politics.

EDIT:  Herman doesn't mention the names in his post #585
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 25, 2020, 02:59:13 AM
Oh. Thanks. Sorry, I have been lazy to read this thread in my efforts to engage less in the US politics.

EDIT:  Herman doesn't mention the names in his post #585

No but --- I quote you --- it took me five seconds to find them on Google.  :)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 25, 2020, 03:03:03 AM
Trump's actions moved the US a bit closer to a place like this. Instead of 100 yards away, the US is 94 yards away. If the US presidents keep moving the country to this direction, someday it becomes a banana republic. According to TYT there was a 1-10 % chance Trump manages to do a coup.

Nonsense on stilts.

Quote
Democracy will erode if it is not protected, and Trump defenitely did not protect democracy.

The POTUS is not the only protection democracy has in the USA. The judiciary is at least as important as the executive in this respect and as we see these days the former is even stronger than the latter. Also, the extreme federalism makes the demise of USA democracy highly improbable.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Fëanor on November 25, 2020, 05:06:15 AM
...
The POTUS is not the only protection democracy has in the USA. The judiciary is at least as important as the executive in this respect and as we see these days the former is even stronger than the latter. Also, the extreme federalism makes the demise of USA democracy highly improbable.

The USA isn't in imminent danger of dictatorship;  it is fairly well protected by its constitution and "checks and balances" system, however that protection isn't impervious.

As for the judiciary, let's remember "Article II of the U.S. Constitution provides that federal judges are appointed by the President, with the "advice and consent" of the Senate. Presidents generally appoint federal judges who share their political beliefs and philosophy." see for example ... http://adacourse.org/courtconcepts/intro.html (http://adacourse.org/courtconcepts/intro.html)  When the Senate is compliant with the President as in case of the current body, then the judiciary will potentially become highly politicised.

Donald Trump isn't a "fascist" per se;  he isn't ideological.  However Trump is a populist and would-be authoritarian;  implicitly if not explicitly he believes in the "unitary executive" theory:  see ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitary_executive_theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitary_executive_theory)  He has amply demonstrated this by appointing Cabinet and advisor based on loyalty and willingness to do his will, rather than on competence -- apparently the includes his Attorney General, speaking of the judiciary.

Probably the greatest attack on democracy by Trump is his fostering of the "stolen election" mythology which, though totally baseless, undermines confidence in the elections process -- we need to consider that 100+ million Americans believe in this "big lie".

"It can't happen here" is not a mistake Americans should make.  For decades I have believe that by far the greatest threat to American democracy and hence the American way of life, is from the right-leaning populist authoritarianism, not from Communism, socialism, nor the "far left".  I've never be more convinced of this than recently.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 25, 2020, 05:47:01 AM
what I've maintained all these four years, namely that the USA has never been anything else than a constitutional republic ruled by law.


Yes, of course it is. 

What we've just experienced, and continue to experience though to a lesser degree, is sensationalist press coverage misrepresenting the power of the presidency and the weakness of other institutions, and doing so on a repeated, daily (hourly) basis, to the point that the "news" resembles nothing less than political propaganda.  A good chunk of people are so blinded by partisanship and ideology, that they believe the stories and begin spinning more fanciful yarns of their own.  Eventually, we witnessed people proclaiming that the US is a banana republic and that Trump would steal the election and serve multiple terms, not as a joke, but with complete and nervous earnestness, over and over. 

All the while, from day one of Trump's presidency, existing institutions continued to function.  Congress passed precious little meaningful legislation - which they do with every administration.  Courts ruled against Trump's actions from the get-go - which they do with every administration.  State and local leaders refused to follow presidential mandates - which they do with every administration.  The main difference was the ubiquity and sensationalism of the press coverage.

It apparently remains difficult for many people to remember the power of the presidency, as concerns about the fate of the republic inevitably center on the president.  The president has the power to literally destroy another country on command.  The president cannot order a stop sign installed at the end of my street.  And then people on the left conveniently forget that historically, in the US, the left has been even more set on expanding the power of the presidency, starting no later than Wilson.  The executive branch should be weakened substantially.  That is the best way to prevent an overly powerful executive.  The opposite will be advocated starting on January 20th, 2021.

Yes, I suppose it could happen here.  Whatever it is.  And depending on what the meaning of the word "is" is.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: milk on November 25, 2020, 06:31:59 AM
What's even funnier is how many people here see Trump's "Fascist" presidency as evidence that the USA has become a banana republic, when in fact the last four years have proved exactly the opposite, namely that the USA is not a banana republic. In a banana republic Trump would have been proclaimed president for life by the parliament and confimed as such by a national referendum; opposition politicians, journalists, bloggers etc would have been killed, jailed or (self-) exiled; any trace of a free press would have disappeared; the judiciary would have turned into a branch of the executive, taking orders (and obeying them unconditionally) directly from Trump; the economy would have been mismanaged and ruined; most people would have barely made it from day to day; and an armed clandestine opposition movement would have started a civil war, possibly with USA backup and financing. Of course, none of these happened in the USA during Trump's "Fascist" presidency, better said Trump did not even try to achieve them, unsubstantiated allegations to the contrary notwithstanding. Now, if he didn't try because he did not want them, then he is not a true Fascist; if he didn't try because he feared legal consequences, then he is still not a true Fascist, because a true Fascist would have taken seriously the Fascist lema "Vivere pericolosamente!" and taken his chances. This is what Mussolini, a true Fascist, did with the March on Rome: he gambled and won.

Besides, if someone like Trump had been really able to damage and render effectiveless the rule of law in, and the democratic institutions of, the USA then they wouldn't have been worth much to begin with. But that's obviously not the case. The rule of law has been up and running during Trump's "Fascist" presidency and lost no opportunity to give him the middle finger. And if he will persist till the end in his misguided stubborness it might even give him a nice pair of handcuffs and a nicely dressed police escort --- and as I said before, that would really make my day because it'll be the ultimate evidence for what I've maintained all these four years, namely that the USA has never been anything else than a constitutional republic ruled by law.
It's a bit of a straw man. I doubt most critics in this vein were saying this. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. There were regulations put into place after Nixon and perhaps they need updating. Trump mixed his business with government to some degree, put his businesses into a practically meaningless blind trust, had government officials revolving through his admin in a whimsical way, he had inexperienced and unqualified family around him as advisors, etc. There's stuff like that that made people say, "oh, he's acting from the playbook of a tin-pot dictator." I agree that it's a lot more to do with his personality and that he was constrained by a system that mostly "works." Trum wanted to choose his electorate rather than the way it worked out according to the system: The electorate didn’t choose him. However, by vomiting a constant stream of lies and bringing along a coterie of liars, he convinced millions of dummies that he only lost because of fraud. The republicans still want to pick their electorate by pushing the fraud narrative and they tried to influence the system to do it. Trump ginned up the conspiracy by getting his voters to vote in-person and repubs had those votes counted first. Trump was lying about how mail-ins were fraud votes months back in the hope of tarnishing the legitimacy of the process and altering the wishes of the electorate. It didn't work this time. Maybe it's all about fundraising and keeping an hysterical base of devotees to con, fund his legal battles or draw on to support a future run. No, he's not a fascist and he didn't turn the U.S. into the movie Bananas. He did act like that and it's a mystery whether he believes what comes out of his own mouth as it's clear his white house staff cannot possibly believe his nonsense.       
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 25, 2020, 06:38:57 AM
Progressives reveal their love of and unending desire for expanded executive authority:  Climate Groups Prod Biden to Bolster Kerry by Declaring Crisis (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-25/climate-groups-prod-biden-to-bolster-kerry-by-declaring-crisis)

Quote from: Ari Natter
Invoking a climate emergency could give Biden the authority to circumvent Congress and fund clean energy projects, shut down crude oil exports, suspend offshore drilling and curtail the movement of fossil fuels on pipelines, trains, and ships, according to a research note by consulting firm ClearView Energy Partners.

Unbounded executive authority unhampered by Congress is apparently good now.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 25, 2020, 07:37:36 AM
It's a bit of a straw man. I doubt most critics in this vein were saying this. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. There were regulations put into place after Nixon and perhaps they need updating. Trump mixed his business with government to some degree, put his businesses into a practically meaningless blind trust, had government officials revolving through his admin in a whimsical way, he had inexperienced and unqualified family around him as advisors, etc. There's stuff like that that made people say, "oh, he's acting from the playbook of a tin-pot dictator." I agree that it's a lot more to do with his personality and that he was constrained by a system that mostly "works." Trum wanted to choose his electorate rather than the way it worked out according to the system: The electorate did choose him. However, by vomiting a constant stream of lies and bringing along a coterie of liars, he convinced millions of dummies that he only lost because of fraud. The republicans still want to pick their electorate by pushing the fraud narrative and they tried to influence the system to do it. Trump ginned up the conspiracy by getting his voters to vote in-person and repubs had those votes counted first. Trump was lying about how mail-ins were fraud votes months back in the hope of tarnishing the legitimacy of the process and altering the wishes of the electorate. It didn't work this time. Maybe it's all about fundraising and keeping an hysterical base of devotees to con, fund his legal battles or draw on to support a future run. No, he's not a fascist and he didn't turn the U.S. into the movie Bananas. He did act like that and it's a mystery whether he believes what comes out of his own mouth as it's clear his white house staff cannot possibly believe his nonsense.       

    Trump thought he could steal an election using propaganda about his opponent stealing it as one of the tools. It's right out of the handbook of "let's not call them" fascists and unaffiliated thugs.

     Why is it not apparent that the US system is weaker and more vulnerable to subversion that was thought a few years ago, and that Trump didn't create the cracks but exploited them? The Biden administration has a big job of building and repairing, and one area is the election process itself.

     The good news we can take from the election is that under very difficult conditions the huge expansion of mail voting was a great success. Recounts and audits have revealed that it's been accurate and has given us a means to allow very high voter participation with safety and the highest level of security. That's a big healthy part of the system to improve on.

Progressives reveal their love of and unending desire for expanded executive authority:  Climate Groups Prod Biden to Bolster Kerry by Declaring Crisis (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-25/climate-groups-prod-biden-to-bolster-kerry-by-declaring-crisis)

Unbounded executive authority unhampered by Congress is apparently good now.

     Congress should exercise its authority if it doesn't want the executive to fill the void. If Congress ignores its responsibilities the void is filled in a "not new under the sun" way.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 25, 2020, 07:57:37 AM
No but --- I quote you --- it took me five seconds to find them on Google.  :)

I did Google the name and it gave me rubbish, because I did not know the context:

bourgeois
/ˈbʊəʒwɑː/
adjective
belonging to or characteristic of the middle class, typically with reference to its perceived materialistic values or conventional attitudes.
"a rich, bored, bourgeois family"
synonyms: middle-class, property-owning, propertied, shopkeeping, conventional, traditional, conservative, conformist, ordinary, commonplace, provincial, parochial, suburban, small-town, parish-pump

noun
a bourgeois person.
"a self-confessed and proud bourgeois"
synonyms: member of the middle class, property owner


Googling "Bourgeois death penalty" gives better results, but needs better knowledge of the context which I did not have, because you did not make it clear your post was related to Herman's infamous post #585.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 25, 2020, 08:07:14 AM
     Millions face benefits and evictions cliff as Congress remains stalled on relief talks (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/11/25/power-up-millions-face-benefits-evictions-cliff-congress-remains-stalled-relief-talks/)

     Who's holding a gun to Mitch's head to make him ignore the greatest economic crisis since the GD? Why would anyone waste brain cells on "unbounded executive authority"? If that authority was unbounded Trump could spend what it takes to keep people in their homes with food on the table until the all clear sounds. He probably wouldn't, but he can't. Biden won't have unbounded authority either.

     Progressives don't have a separate position on the limits of executive authority that isn't widely held across the spectrum. My view is that "use it or lose it" generally applies, as it does with the War Powers Act.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 25, 2020, 08:20:06 AM
Who's holding a gun to Mitch's head to make him ignore the greatest economic crisis since the GD?

Nobody. You have to hold a gun to Mitch's head to make him care about regular people.  :P
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 25, 2020, 08:39:44 AM
I did Google the name and it gave me rubbish, because I did not know the context:

bourgeois
/ˈbʊəʒwɑː/
adjective
belonging to or characteristic of the middle class, typically with reference to its perceived materialistic values or conventional attitudes.
"a rich, bored, bourgeois family"
synonyms: middle-class, property-owning, propertied, shopkeeping, conventional, traditional, conservative, conformist, ordinary, commonplace, provincial, parochial, suburban, small-town, parish-pump

noun
a bourgeois person.
"a self-confessed and proud bourgeois"
synonyms: member of the middle class, property owner


Googling "Bourgeois death penalty" gives better results, but needs better knowledge of the context which I did not have, because you did not make it clear your post was related to Herman's infamous post #585.

I googled "death sentences lame duck", ie keywords from the 585 post.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 25, 2020, 08:49:40 AM
Nobody. You have to hold a gun to Mitch's head to make him care about regular people.  :P

     He would care about the gun. Mitch is fully capable of railing against executive authority when it suits him. Someone will fetch him a high principle that fits the case. Duty and responsibility don't come into it. Bad executives took them away. It's sad.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 25, 2020, 12:22:45 PM
On Saturday, a federal district court judge issued a blistering dismissal of Donald J. Trump for President, Inc. v. Kathy Boockvar. The opinion is a lesson in elementary lawyering—a once-in-a-career missive that I assigned to my first-year law students on Monday, because it reads like a toddler’s “What’s Wrong With This Picture” exercise for lawyers. No wonder that Chris Christie, who was a U.S. attorney before he was New Jersey’s governor, called Trump’s legal team a “national embarrassment” in the wake of its dozens of legal failures. The more sobering problem is that, like much of government touched by Donald Trump, the legal system has now been sullied by his spurious attacks—relying on tortured arguments and illusory facts—upon legitimately cast and counted votes. Too bad that—so far—no lawyers have been sanctioned for abusing the courts this way. They should be.

Trump’s Embarrassingly Bad Legal Case in Pennsylvania (https://thebulwark.com/trumps-embarrassingly-bad-legal-case-in-pennsylvania/)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 25, 2020, 12:39:12 PM
Quote from: Kim Wehle from TheBulwark
The chance that the Supreme Court will step in and ignore the facts, ignore the law, and ignore the governing procedural rules to snatch the election from Joe Biden and the American people and hand it to Donald Trump is zero.

Irrelevant, Karl, irrelevant. What is the chance as calculated by TYT? --- that is the question (cf. post #593).  ;)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 25, 2020, 03:18:26 PM
Charlie Sykes: "Exit take: We were warned of socialism, but apparently will get Janet Yellen instead. It’s almost enough to make you suspect they were scamming us."
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 25, 2020, 03:43:18 PM

     The Inside Story of Michigan’s Fake Voter Fraud Scandal (https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/11/24/michigan-election-trump-voter-fraud-democracy-440475)

More than any policy enacted or court vacancy filled, Trump’s legacy will be his unprecedented assault on the legitimacy of the ballot box. And it will not be considered in isolation. Future iterations of the GOP will make casual insinuations of voter fraud central to the party’s brand. The next generation of Republicans will have learned how to sow doubts about election integrity in one breath and in the next breath bemoan the nation’s lack of faith in our elections, creating a self-perpetuating justification to cast suspicion on a process that by raw numbers does not appear conducive to keeping them in power.

     
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 25, 2020, 03:46:29 PM
Charlie Sykes: "Exit take: We were warned of socialism, but apparently will get Janet Yellen instead. It’s almost enough to make you suspect they were scamming us."

     Yellen was too short for Trump, now she's just right.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: SimonNZ on November 25, 2020, 03:50:50 PM

Yes, of course it is. 

What we've just experienced, and continue to experience though to a lesser degree, is sensationalist press coverage misrepresenting the power of the presidency and the weakness of other institutions, and doing so on a repeated, daily (hourly) basis, to the point that the "news" resembles nothing less than political propaganda.  A good chunk of people are so blinded by partisanship and ideology, that they believe the stories and begin spinning more fanciful yarns of their own.  Eventually, we witnessed people proclaiming that the US is a banana republic and that Trump would steal the election and serve multiple terms, not as a joke, but with complete and nervous earnestness, over and over. 

All the while, from day one of Trump's presidency, existing institutions continued to function.  Congress passed precious little meaningful legislation - which they do with every administration.  Courts ruled against Trump's actions from the get-go - which they do with every administration.  State and local leaders refused to follow presidential mandates - which they do with every administration.  The main difference was the ubiquity and sensationalism of the press coverage.

It apparently remains difficult for many people to remember the power of the presidency, as concerns about the fate of the republic inevitably center on the president.  The president has the power to literally destroy another country on command.  The president cannot order a stop sign installed at the end of my street.  And then people on the left conveniently forget that historically, in the US, the left has been even more set on expanding the power of the presidency, starting no later than Wilson.  The executive branch should be weakened substantially.  That is the best way to prevent an overly powerful executive.  The opposite will be advocated starting on January 20th, 2021.

Yes, I suppose it could happen here.  Whatever it is.  And depending on what the meaning of the word "is" is.

And the failure and incompetence of the Beer Hall Putsch proves the robustness of the Weimar Republic and that this would-be dictator is just a clownish amusement and any newspaper that says otherwise is just peddling hysterical propaganda.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 25, 2020, 04:39:03 PM
And the failure and incompetence of the Beer Hall Putsch proves the robustness of the Weimar Republic and that this would-be dictator is just a clownish amusement and any newspaper that says otherwise is just peddling hysterical propaganda.

     Trump was the chief propagandist. The media covered his awfulness, including everything he tried to do, failed to do, and succeeded in doing. It was a sensation, but not a made up one.

     On occasion the media sensationalized the wrong thing. I don't care whether this is old under the sun or new. They got the Russia scandal far more right than wrong, as the Mueller report and the Senate report confirmed in detail. The Ukraine scandal brought about Trump's impeachment and the media got that right, too. They covered the sadistic child separation policy. The sensation wasn't how it was covered, but that it happened. It's not that consoling to me that DHS and ICE continued to function.

     
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: SimonNZ on November 25, 2020, 04:40:42 PM
     Trump was the chief propagandist. The media covered his awfulness, including everything he tried to do, failed to do, and succeeded in doing. It was a sensation, but not a made up one.

     On occasion the media sensationalized the wrong thing. I don't care whether this is old under the sun or new. They got the Russia scandal far more right than wrong, as the Mueller report and the Senate report confirmed in detail. The Ukraine scandal brought about Trump's impeachment and the media got that right, too. They covered the sadistic child separation policy. The sensation wasn't how it was covered, but that it happened. It's not that consoling to me that DHS and ICE continued to function.

   

I agree, of course.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 25, 2020, 05:35:50 PM

     Will Trump pardon himself for the crimes the media sensationalized him into committing? What about pardoning anyone who might testify sensationally?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: SimonNZ on November 25, 2020, 06:19:10 PM
NPR's "Embedded" podcast is doing a series of episodes on Mitch McConnell. The first was on the working relationship he may have with Biden, the sond on his rise, the third and most recent is the first part of a look at his relaxed attitude to campaign finance:

https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510311/embedded
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: SimonNZ on November 25, 2020, 09:39:07 PM
Bloomberg:

Mnuchin Plans to Put $455 Billion Beyond Yellen’s Easy Reach (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-24/mnuchin-to-put-455-billion-in-funds-out-of-yellen-s-easy-reach?sref=MIBMEEoj)

"Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin will put $455 billion in unspent Cares Act funding into an account that his presumed successor, former Federal Reserve Chair Janet Yellen, will soon need authorization from Congress to use.

The money will be placed in the agency’s General Fund, a Treasury Department spokesperson said Tuesday. Most of it had gone to support Federal Reserve emergency-lending facilities, and Mnuchin’s clawback would make it impossible for Yellen as Treasury secretary to restore for that purpose without lawmakers’ blessing.

Democrats swiftly criticized the move, with Bharat Ramamurti, a member of the congressionally appointed watchdog panel overseeing Fed and Treasury Covid-19 relief funds, saying “the good news is that it’s illegal and can be reversed next year.”[...]
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: MusicTurner on November 26, 2020, 12:12:08 AM
This seems to be a good survey of #45's expected regulation initiatives before January 20th, besides pardoning (Flynn already pardoned):

https://www.propublica.org/article/trump-races-to-weaken-environmental-and-worker-protections-and-implement-other-last-minute-policies-before-jan-20


Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 26, 2020, 12:17:36 AM
Has there ever been a lame duck session like this?

The pardons are obviously standard, but all these steps to make it harder for the next administration are rather new to me.

And this includes not just the billions Mnuchin is locking up so Biden / Yellen won't have any budget, but also the death row executions.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 26, 2020, 01:03:51 AM
Searching for the USA equivalent(s) of the Beer Hall Putsch I found, among other things, something called The Election Riot of 1874, or Coup of 1874, which took place on election day, November 3, 1874, in an Alabama location. Now, this is a very interesting story. Here it goes (all quotes taken from here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election_riot_of_1874 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election_riot_of_1874) and all highlights are mine).

The Election Riot of 1874, or Coup of 1874, took place on election day, November 3, 1874, near Eufaula, Alabama in Barbour County. Freedmen comprised a majority of the population and had been electing Republican candidates to office. Members of an Alabama chapter of the White League, a paramilitary group supporting the Democratic Party's drive to regain conservative political power in the county and state, attacked black Republicans at the polls.

The members of the White League killed at least seven black voters and wounded 70, while driving away more than 1,000 unarmed black people at the polls. In attacking the polling place in Spring Hill, the League influenced the outcome of the elections. They turned all Republicans out of office and Democratic candidates took a majority of offices up for election.

Background

The White League had formed in 1874 as an insurgent, white Democratic paramilitary group in Grant Parish and nearby parishes[1] on the Red River of the South in Louisiana. The League was founded by members of the white militia who had committed the Colfax Massacre in Louisiana in 1873, killing numerous black people in order to turn out Republicans from parish offices as part of the disputed 1872 gubernatorial election. Historians such as George Rabe consider groups such as the White League and Red Shirts as a "military arm" of the Democratic Party. Their members worked openly to disrupt Republican meetings, and attacked and intimidated voters to suppress black voting. They courted press attention rather than operating secretly, as had the Ku Klux Klan.

Chapters spread to Alabama and other states in the Deep South. A similar paramilitary group was the Red Shirts, which originated in Mississippi and became active in the Carolinas. Both paramilitary groups contributed to the Democrats' regaining control in the state legislatures in the late 1870s. The Red Shirts were still active in the 1890s and were implicated in the Wilmington Insurrection of 1898 in North Carolina.[2]
Events

On election day, November 3, 1874, an Alabama chapter of the White League repeated actions taken earlier that year in Vicksburg, Mississippi. They invaded Eufaula, killing at least seven black Republicans, injuring at least 70 more, and driving off more than 1,000 unarmed Republicans from the polls.[3] The group moved on to Spring Hill, where members stormed the polling place, destroying the ballot box, and killing the 16-year-old son of a white Republican judge in their shooting.[4]

The White League refused to count any Republican votes cast. But, Republican voters reflected the black majority in the county, as well as white supporters. They outnumbered Democratic voters by a margin greater than two to one. The League declared the Democratic candidates victorious, forced Republican politicians out of office, and seized every county office in Barbour County in a kind of coup d'état.[5] Such actions were repeated in other parts of the South in the 1870s, as Democrats sought to regain political dominance in states with black majorities and numerous Republican officials. In Barbour County, the Democrats auctioned off as "slaves" (for a maximum cost of $2 per month), or otherwise silenced all Republican witnesses to the events. They were intimidated from testifying to the coup if the case went to federal court.[5]

Legacy

Due to the actual and threatened violence by the White League, black voters began to stay away from the polls in Barbour County. They no longer voted in sufficient number to retain a majority of Republican officeholders. White conservative Democrats continued to intimidate black voters through the late 19th century, especially after a Populist-Republican alliance elected some Fusion candidates in the Deep South, as well as local Republican officials in many states.

In 1875, Mississippi Democrats also used widespread intimidation to control local elections, which became known as the Mississippi Plan. Such violence was adopted by chapters in other cities and counties. Democrats regained control of Alabama and other state legislatures.



Nihil novum sub sole.

Back to the Beer Hall Putsch, it would be interesting to compare the sentences received by Hitler, Ludendorff and their gang with the sentences that the gang who conspired to kidnap Michigan's governor will receive.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: SimonNZ on November 26, 2020, 01:33:11 AM
That was some underlining worthy of Reddit. Why not just join them and say "It was a Republican who freed the slaves!"?

Do you really, honestly, need to have it explained to you the changing face and philosophies of the Rs and Ds, the near reversal of roles,  from the late 19th century to the late 20th?


Vox:

How Republicans went from the party of Lincoln to the party of Trump, in 13 maps (https://www.vox.com/2016/7/20/12148750/republican-party-trump-lincoln)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Fëanor on November 26, 2020, 04:48:32 AM
     The Inside Story of Michigan’s Fake Voter Fraud Scandal (https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/11/24/michigan-election-trump-voter-fraud-democracy-440475)

More than any policy enacted or court vacancy filled, Trump’s legacy will be his unprecedented assault on the legitimacy of the ballot box. And it will not be considered in isolation. Future iterations of the GOP will make casual insinuations of voter fraud central to the party’s brand. The next generation of Republicans will have learned how to sow doubts about election integrity in one breath and in the next breath bemoan the nation’s lack of faith in our elections, creating a self-perpetuating justification to cast suspicion on a process that by raw numbers does not appear conducive to keeping them in power.

This is Trump's legacy:  undermining faith in the electoral process.  Even assuming Trump doesn't run himself in '23-'24 it is very likely the next Republican candidate will exploit the myth of election fraud.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Fëanor on November 26, 2020, 05:00:50 AM
It's a bit of a straw man. I doubt most critics in this vein were saying this. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. There were regulations put into place after Nixon and perhaps they need updating. Trump mixed his business with government to some degree, put his businesses into a practically meaningless blind trust, had government officials revolving through his admin in a whimsical way, he had inexperienced and unqualified family around him as advisors, etc. There's stuff like that that made people say, "oh, he's acting from the playbook of a tin-pot dictator." I agree that it's a lot more to do with his personality and that he was constrained by a system that mostly "works." Trum wanted to choose his electorate rather than the way it worked out according to the system: The electorate didn’t choose him. However, by vomiting a constant stream of lies and bringing along a coterie of liars, he convinced millions of dummies that he only lost because of fraud. The republicans still want to pick their electorate by pushing the fraud narrative and they tried to influence the system to do it. Trump ginned up the conspiracy by getting his voters to vote in-person and repubs had those votes counted first. Trump was lying about how mail-ins were fraud votes months back in the hope of tarnishing the legitimacy of the process and altering the wishes of the electorate. It didn't work this time. Maybe it's all about fundraising and keeping an hysterical base of devotees to con, fund his legal battles or draw on to support a future run. No, he's not a fascist and he didn't turn the U.S. into the movie Bananas. He did act like that and it's a mystery whether he believes what comes out of his own mouth as it's clear his white house staff cannot possibly believe his nonsense.     

The fact is the Trump was an incompetent POTUS and not a very shrewd politician.  If a smarter and maybe even more cynical populist to were to gain the Presidency, one can only fear the consequences to American democracy.

Perhaps the biggest damage, IMO, is Trump's sowing doubt in the electoral process.  This is a thing that will be exploited by future candidates of the Republican Party and likely the Democratic Party as well.  Once people loose faith in election results, everything is on the table.

I'm not saying this is something Trump thought throw.  I tend to think he subconsciously anticipated his loss and, given his pathological narcissism, invented a means to deflect the reality of rejection and defeat.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 26, 2020, 05:01:22 AM
Do you really, honestly, need to have it explained to you the changing face and philosophies of the Rs and Ds, the near reversal of roles,  from the late 19th century to the late 20th?

Both parties have changed their philosophies (insofar as such a lofty notion can be applied to sloganeering) but not their essentially cynical, hypocritical, unprincipled, power-hungry nature.

Quote
How Republicans went from the party of Lincoln to the party of Trump, in 13 maps (https://www.vox.com/2016/7/20/12148750/republican-party-trump-lincoln)

A History of the Democratic Party – From Slavery to Obama: Loyal Defenders of Capitalism (https://speakoutsocialists.org/a-history-of-the-democratic-party-from-slavery-to-obama-loyal-defenders-of-capitalism/)

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 26, 2020, 05:46:35 AM
Voter fraud has long been a go to talking point among Republicans and libertarians.

There has always been talk about inner city (= black) people voting multiple times, and this has always been regarded as a fact that Democrats would not see, because the D party profited from these non-existent shenanigans.

The ironic fact of this election is that the only voter fraud that has been noted has been isolated cases of Republicans that voted twice, either by accident or accidentally on purpose, or voted for their dead mom, because she would have wanted it that way.

This belonging to realm of facts does not make the slightest impression (also, quantitatively it doesn't mean a thing), whereas the myth of black inner city folk bringing thousands of non-existent votes to the D party bosses is indestructible. Trump tapped into this myth successfully and so will the next R candidate.

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 26, 2020, 06:12:11 AM
Searching for the USA equivalent(s) of the Beer Hall Putsch


You will find no analog.  Beer Hall Putsches are European.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Zeus on November 26, 2020, 08:07:39 AM
And the failure and incompetence of the Beer Hall Putsch proves the robustness of the Weimar Republic and that this would-be dictator is just a clownish amusement and any newspaper that says otherwise is just peddling hysterical propaganda.

Hear! Hear!

Everything is for the best in the best of all possible countries.

Oh, and government is evil.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: JBS on November 26, 2020, 08:17:44 AM
Has there ever been a lame duck session like this?

The pardons are obviously standard, but all these steps to make it harder for the next administration are rather new to me.

And this includes not just the billions Mnuchin is locking up so Biden / Yellen won't have any budget, but also the death row executions.

The basic strategy is to leave a mess, complain about whatever Biden does to fix, complain about him trying to fix it and by that method win back the House and full control of the Senate in 2022, and let the Trump-anointed candidate win the WH in 2024.
Add to that of course claims that Biden's election was rigged as extra motives for Real Americans to vote Republican.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 26, 2020, 08:39:44 AM
The basic strategy is to leave a mess, complain about whatever Biden does to fix, complain about him trying to fix it and by that method win back the House and full control of the Senate in 2022, and let the Trump-anointed candidate win the WH in 2024.
Add to that of course claims that Biden's election was rigged as extra motives for Real Americans to vote Republican.

Yes, and keep saying that nothing that Trump c.s. did in 2016 - 2020 was really bad, since the USA clearly did not fall off a cliff. (Never mind hundreds of thousands of dead, just don't mention them. "We like the ones who did not die.")
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 26, 2020, 08:58:36 AM
NY Gov. Cuomo Says Supreme Court Decision Overturning COVID Restrictions for Religious Services Has 'No Practical Effect' (https://www.newsweek.com/ny-gov-cuomo-says-supreme-court-decision-overturning-covid-restrictions-religious-services-has-1550598)

Cuomo claims victory even in defeat.  The important thing here, of course, is that Roberts sided with the court's three liberals.  I suspect that will become more common.  Maybe Roberts can still become a Warren size disappointment.


The basic strategy is to leave a mess, complain about whatever Biden does to fix, complain about him trying to fix it and by that method win back the House and full control of the Senate in 2022, and let the Trump-anointed candidate win the WH in 2024.
Add to that of course claims that Biden's election was rigged as extra motives for Real Americans to vote Republican.

Gotta keep your eyes on the prize.  A fully Republican controlled Congress for 2023-2025 would be outstanding.  The administration would be hemmed in.  Dems had best pray for victory in both Georgia elections and then ram through as much legislation as they can.  That may be wishful thinking for Dems.  Here's a heartwarming story: Majority say they want GOP in control of Senate: poll (https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/527159-majority-say-they-want-gop-in-control-of-senate-poll)

Quote from: Julia Manschester
Fifty-six percent of voters said they want a divided government with Republicans in control of the upper chamber, according to data released exclusively to The Hill.

I rather assume that since voters are far dumber than internet board posters, this means nothing, and no doubt a Harvard CAPS-Harris poll cannot be taken seriously.  The republic is doomed, and so forth.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 26, 2020, 09:16:32 AM


I rather assume that since voters are far dumber than internet board posters, this means nothing, and no doubt a Harvard CAPS-Harris poll cannot be taken seriously.  The republic is doomed, and so forth.

     What do dumb voters want? They want good stuff from the politicians they know, not the other side. There are smart voters, too, that have figured out who wants to do the thing and who wants to stop the thing being done.

     A common belief is that divided government leads to compromise which raises the odds that the good thing will get done. GMG Big Brains know better.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 26, 2020, 09:38:09 AM
This is Trump's legacy:  undermining faith in the electoral process.  Even assuming Trump doesn't run himself in '23-'24 it is very likely the next Republican candidate will exploit the myth of election fraud.

     It will be interesting to see if any Repub contender for 2024 breaks ranks and acknowledges that elections are fairly run and free of fraud. As things stand that would be political suicide.

     Then there's the matter of infiltration by QAnon. Signs in the sky say this version of crowd madness is waning, perhaps heading for Satanic day care extinction. The GOP will be vulnerable to the next craze, though, given the importance of denialism on many fronts built into the party.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 26, 2020, 10:37:47 AM
     The Biden Presidency Already Has Its First Conspiracy Theory: The Great Reset (https://www.thedailybeast.com/joe-bidens-presidency-already-has-its-first-conspiracy-theory-the-great-reset?ref=home?ref=home)

“Now we have this push for what’s being called the Great Reset,” Newsmax host Michelle Malkin said on a Nov. 21 show. “And every aspect of the way that we live our lives, how we worship, whether we’re allowed to, how we’re raising our kids, how they’re allowed to access education, is being transformed based on nothing that is actually supported by real science.”

     In no way are we having this push other than the dingdongs who are pushing it. I don't get the reference to science and actual support by it. The scientists are supposed to be part of the plot.

     Also I note a distinct lack of sub-basement torture rooms and spaceships. To be fair, the inclusion of Sesame Street puppets is plusgood.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 26, 2020, 10:46:06 AM
     The Biden Presidency Already Has Its First Conspiracy Theory: The Great Reset (https://www.thedailybeast.com/joe-bidens-presidency-already-has-its-first-conspiracy-theory-the-great-reset?ref=home?ref=home)

“Now we have this push for what’s being called the Great Reset,” Newsmax host Michelle Malkin said on a Nov. 21 show. “And every aspect of the way that we live our lives, how we worship, whether we’re allowed to, how we’re raising our kids, how they’re allowed to access education, is being transformed based on nothing that is actually supported by real science.”

     In no way are we having this push other than the dingdongs who are pushing it. I don't get the reference to science and actual support by it. The scientists are supposed to be part of the plot.

     Also I note a distinct lack of sub-basement torture rooms and spaceships. To be fair, the inclusion of Sesame Street puppets is plusgood.

I have been in online contact with a Canadian woman for over a decade. Now in the era of Trump she has started talking about weird things she never before did. She supports Trump and thinks Justin Trudeau is part of this "reset thing". She is anti-vaxxer. I try to talk sense to her, but... ...so the World is ruined. Half of people are insane and I don't what the fuck to do
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 26, 2020, 10:47:24 AM
She supports Trump and thinks Justin Trudeau is part of this "reset thing".


Perhaps someone here can explain how any non-American can be a Trump supporter.  Or opponent, for that matter.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 26, 2020, 11:01:10 AM

Perhaps someone here can explain how any non-American and be a Trump supporter.  Or opponent, for that matter.

There are Trumpists outside the US. In Finland about 20 % support Trump. Typically those who support nationalistic anti-immigrant right wing populist parties support also Trump. In Finland this party is True Finns (Perussuomalaiset in Finnish), the only party with more support for Trump than Biden. Laura Huhtasaari (https://finlandtoday.fi/finns-party-member-laura-huhtasaari-nominates-president-trump-for-2021-nobel-peace-prize/) of that party even nominated Trump for 2021 Nobel Peace Prize, something that makes me extremely embarassed of being a Finn!  :-X
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 26, 2020, 11:06:58 AM

Perhaps someone here can explain how any non-American and be a Trump supporter.  Or opponent, for that matter.

     It's part of Reset theory. Soros will get it done.

There are Trumpists outside the US.

     There are Communists everywhere.

     
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Fëanor on November 26, 2020, 11:35:34 AM

Perhaps someone here can explain how any non-American and be a Trump supporter.  Or opponent, for that matter.

You ask?  Really?  As the wealthiest, most powerful, and as yet, still the most influential nation in the world you wonder why a non-American would be concerned about an incompetent loose-cannon in the White House.  Presumably you're joking rather making light of the matter.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 26, 2020, 11:41:19 AM
The weirder thing is why non-Americans would support (or want to support) Trump. However in most nation their are men and women who are attracted to this style of behaviour. (I was going to say 'politics'.

In many western countries Trump would get ten or fifteen percent of the vote, is my guess, without even showing up.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 26, 2020, 11:50:08 AM
You ask?  Really?  As the wealthiest, most powerful, and as yet, still the most influential nation in the world you wonder why a non-American would be concerned about an incompetent loose-cannon in the White House.  Presumably you're joking rather making light of the matter.

Yes, I ask.  Really.  What is a non-American Trump "supporter"?  What does that mean?  Does it mean they are fans, or something similar?  Non-Americans cannot support American politicians in any real-world way (money, campaigning, voting, etc).  Moral support is worthless.  Just as worthless as moral opposition.

At some point, one would think non-Americans would conclude that their dependence on the US in security and financial matters is a risk and would take action to change course.  But instead, if the President-elect is correct, and "America is Back"  - a phrase as intrinsically worthless as "America First" or "Make America Great Again" - and all manner of foreign leaders are more than happy to return to a variant of the status quo ante, then non-Americans haven't learned a thing. 
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 26, 2020, 12:06:04 PM

     Risk balancing is done everywhere. Trump altered the balance and Biden will, too. Everyone learns, unlearns and relearns. I don't think Biden will or even can return to the status quo ante. I would want him to support the alliances in ways most consistent with the nature of opposing forces in Asia and Europe as they presently exist. We won't get Obama foreign policy laxness. Iran policy will change. Russia policy will be more realistic. China policy will focus more on results and less on frenemy theater Trump displayed. Biden will be low on the warmonger scale.

     
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 26, 2020, 12:25:02 PM
     I would want him to support the alliances in ways most consistent with the nature of opposing forces in Asia and Europe as they presently exist.

What forces oppose the USA, or NATO, in Europe?

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 26, 2020, 12:30:48 PM
What forces oppose the USA, or NATO, in Europe?

Russia!  You know, the baddest of the bad.  The evil empire, or its remnants, at any rate, currently headed by a cunning, ruthless leader of such evil genius that he is slowly rebuilding the Soviet or Tsarist Empire (I can't remember which) with no opposition or even meaningful discussion. 

Asia is filled with non-Westerners, and therefore is much more prone to non-Western modes of thought, which are bad, of course, so therefore, 'Murica!
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 26, 2020, 01:09:45 PM

     
What forces oppose the USA, or NATO, in Europe?



     Russian policy has been consistent under Putin. I don't see that changing. It would be better to have a policy of cooperation among the NATO countries. I think we're done with undermining such cooperation for now. In Asia our allies are worried about an increasingly aggressive China. While Americans might have unique ideas about what constitutes opposition, mostly it's not specific to them. I think Asians and Europeans have their own quite similar ideas. We aren't implanting our ideas in their heads. We are not that exceptional.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 26, 2020, 01:15:07 PM
Russia!  You know, the baddest of the bad.  The evil empire, or its remnants, at any rate, currently headed by a cunning, ruthless leader of such evil genius that he is slowly rebuilding the Soviet or Tsarist Empire (I can't remember which) with no opposition or even meaningful discussion. 

 ;D  ;D ;D

And lo and behold:

      Russian policy has been consistent under Putin.

When I hear Europe I tend to think EU.  Are there forces within EU that oppose USA and NATO?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 26, 2020, 01:33:55 PM
;D  ;D ;D

And lo and behold:

When I hear Europe I tend to think EU.  Are there forces within EU that oppose USA and NATO?

     What's the Romanian view of NATO and the opposition? I don't want to implant 'Murican ideas, so tell me what Romanians think about NATO missiles there. Why don't you protest that opposition is a fiction promoted by US warmongers? You know best what the situation is. It's your damn country, after all. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/tongue.gif)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 26, 2020, 01:39:12 PM
     What's the Romanian view of NATO and the opposition? I don't want to implant 'Murican ideas, so tell me what Romanians think about NATO missiles there.

Romania is one of the staunchest supporters and allies of the USA, regardless of who is POTUS at any given time, and sees NATO as crucial to her security. NATO missiles are more than welcome. There is virtually no opposition to USA and NATO.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 26, 2020, 01:44:25 PM
Romania is one of the staunchest supporters and allies of the USA, regardless of who is POTUS at any given time, and sees NATO as crucial to her security. NATO missiles are more than welcome. There is virtually no opposition to USA and NATO.

     After exhaustive research over minutes I think what you say is true. That implicitly answers the opposition (pseudo) question, does it not?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 26, 2020, 01:50:05 PM
     After exhaustive research over minutes I think what you say is true. That implicitly answers the opposition (pseudo) question, does it not?

Once again: when I hear about Europe, the first thing that comes to my mind is not Russia but EU. I really don't need to be lectured about what Russia means in terms of geopolitics and security threats.

My question still stands unanswered: are there forces within EU opposed to USA and NATO? I know the answer. Do you?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 26, 2020, 02:10:20 PM
Once again: when I hear about Europe, the first thing that comes to my mind is not Russia but EU. I really don't need to be lectured about what Russia means in terms of geopolitics and security threats.

My question still stands unanswered: are there forces within EU opposed to USA and NATO? I know the answer. Do you?

     Excellent, I didn't think you needed a lecture on Russia so I didn't bother. That was my point. We don't have to impose US ideas and it would be foolish to try.

     The EU is more opaque to US based Big Brains than NATO. Trumpist hostility to the EU as playing the US for suckers on trade has been in the news. As for EU members opposing NATO I would like to know more. Regardless of what the French and Germans say about "go it alone" I don't think they really want to do that. It's a reaction to Trumpist hostility, though I think it has dawned on them that they need to be more self reliant.

     Oh, it just occurred to me that you might be referring to Poland and Hungary.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 27, 2020, 12:34:31 AM
     As for EU members opposing NATO I would like to know more. Regardless of what the French and Germans say about "go it alone" I don't think they really want to do that. It's a reaction to Trumpist hostility, though I think it has dawned on them that they need to be more self reliant.

     Oh, it just occurred to me that you might be referring to Poland and Hungary.

Poland is as staunchly pro-USA and pro-NATO as Romania. DItto the Baltic States. Hungary has moved towards Russia in the last years (for economic reasons) but Orban always stress that his country is part and parcel of NATO and EU.

The answer is this: while the degree of approval varies from country to country, there is no EU member state which opposes USA and NATO. However there are political parties that do that. The most nationally significant of them is the Rassemblement National in France. Incidentally, they have strong ties with Putin.

The talks about a unified European military are as empty as it gets. There is simply no alternative to NATO and neither the EU nor the USA can afford a lets-see-what-happens-if approach.

Otoh, there is another European country which poses a problem, though not yet a threat, to NATO: Turkey, whose relationships with the USA have been constantly deteriorating ever since Erdogan was elected and re-elected President.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 27, 2020, 01:29:06 AM


Otoh, there is another European country which poses a problem, though not yet a threat, to NATO: Turkey, whose relationships with the USA have been constantly deteriorating ever since Erdogan was elected and re-elected President.

Erdogan and Trump got along like a house on fire.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 27, 2020, 05:51:18 AM
The talks about a unified European military are as empty as it gets.

Empty and funny.


There is simply no alternative to NATO and neither the EU nor the USA can afford a lets-see-what-happens-if approach.

This is not true.  The US did not have to establish NATO in the first place, despite the standard post-war narrative.  The enlargement of NATO starting in 1999 is a long-term strategic blunder.  It is completely unnecessary.  It does nothing at all to enhance American security.  It makes the US less secure by expanding commitments to countries that have no strategic value, or economic value, to the US.  The beneficiaries are small, weak countries that understandably seek US protection.  For instance, what, pray tell, does North Macedonia offer the US?  Nothing.  Nothing at all.  Preferably, NATO should be returned to its 1991 boundaries.  If that is not possible, it should be dissolved.  Obviously, the destruction of the EU should be pursued whether or not NATO remains.  A splintered, destabilized Europe is preferable from a long-term strategic perspective.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 27, 2020, 06:04:10 AM
Preferably, NATO should be returned to its 1991 boundaries.  If that is not possible, it should be dissolved.  Obviously, the destruction of the EU should be pursued whether or not NATO remains.  A splintered, destabilized Europe is preferable from a long-term strategic perspective.

This is probably the only issue(s) on which your views and mine are irreconcilable, which is fine with me.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 27, 2020, 06:26:30 AM
This is probably the only issue(s) on which your views and mine are irreconcilable, which is fine with me.


Considering the mighty North Macedonia only became a member of NATO this year, while the dastardly Trump was president, the man bent on all manner of perfidious deeds designed to help Russia as payback for successful collusion in the 2016 election, US dedication to NATO does not seem particularly strained at the present time.  I'm not sure how North Macedonia may be able to assist if there is a crisis in the Strait of Malacca, though.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 27, 2020, 06:35:42 AM

Considering the mighty North Macedonia only became a member of NATO this year, while the dastardly Trump was president, the man bent on all manner of perfidious deeds designed to help Russia as payback for successful collusion in the 2016 election, US dedication to NATO does not seem particularly strained at the present time.

That's what I've been maintaining all along: for all his harsh rhetoric, Trump did nothing to weaken NATO, or USA's committment to it --- and I'm not even sure he wanted to do anything.

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 27, 2020, 06:38:22 AM
That's what I've been maintaining all along: for all his harsh rhetoric, Trump did nothing to weaken NATO, or USA's committment to it --- and I'm not even sure he wanted to do anything.


The press and anti-Trump zealots got very excited about his refusal to offer vocal support for Article 5 of the NATO charter, almost as though the president is beholden to it as though it were part of the US Constitution.  Because, Russia.  Or something.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Fëanor on November 27, 2020, 07:58:10 AM
Yes, I ask.  Really.  What is a non-American Trump "supporter"?  What does that mean?  Does it mean they are fans, or something similar?  Non-Americans cannot support American politicians in any real-world way (money, campaigning, voting, etc).  Moral support is worthless.  Just as worthless as moral opposition.

At some point, one would think non-Americans would conclude that their dependence on the US in security and financial matters is a risk and would take action to change course.  But instead, if the President-elect is correct, and "America is Back"  - a phrase as intrinsically worthless as "America First" or "Make America Great Again" - and all manner of foreign leaders are more than happy to return to a variant of the status quo ante, then non-Americans haven't learned a thing.

I guess one might say that a non-American Trump supporter is one who comes to a forums such as this, with Americans as well as others, and advocates for Donald Trump.  A non-American Trump opponent, such as me, would be one who comes here to advocated against Trump whether on international or -- for that matter -- domestic US issues.

If Trump's "Make American Great Again" means, as it seems to in many cases, given the international community the middle finger, then it isn't hard to imagine why foreign leads would welcome the former status quo.  Just a personal opinion of course, but neglecting much less abuse allies doesn't seem to be an enlightened strategy even for the USA.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 27, 2020, 07:59:39 AM
Poland is as staunchly pro-USA and pro-NATO as Romania. DItto the Baltic States. Hungary has moved towards Russia in the last years (for economic reasons) but Orban always stress that his country is part and parcel of NATO and EU.

The answer is this: while the degree of approval varies from country to country, there is no EU member state which opposes USA and NATO. However there are political parties that do that. The most nationally significant of them is the Rassemblement National in France. Incidentally, they have strong ties with Putin.

The talks about a unified European military are as empty as it gets. There is simply no alternative to NATO and neither the EU nor the USA can afford a lets-see-what-happens-if approach.

Otoh, there is another European country which poses a problem, though not yet a threat, to NATO: Turkey, whose relationships with the USA have been constantly deteriorating ever since Erdogan was elected and re-elected President.

     Sounds good to me. An American foreign policy bot would say pretty much the same thing.

That's what I've been maintaining all along: for all his harsh rhetoric, Trump did nothing to weaken NATO, or USA's committment to it --- and I'm not even sure he wanted to do anything.



     He failed because the state is too deep to crumple, and TrumPutinist policy is not US policy, and Trump has no coherent anti-vision to replace vision.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 27, 2020, 08:08:19 AM

     (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Enz_9RPUYAEh5yW?format=jpg&name=small)

     (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
     
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: BasilValentine on November 27, 2020, 08:21:51 AM
Non-Americans cannot [legally] support American politicians in any real-world way (money, campaigning, voting, etc). 

Note the amendment ^ ^ ^. Of course they can. it's easy if those Americans own businesses with foreign customers. Want to put money in Trump's pocket? Simple as booking unused rooms in Trump International Hotel (ghost booking). Or through real estate transactions. 
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 27, 2020, 08:25:44 AM
I guess one might say that a non-American Trump supporter is one who comes to a forums such as this, with Americans as well as others, and advocates for Donald Trump.  A non-American Trump opponent, such as me, would be one who comes here to advocated against Trump whether on international or -- for that matter -- domestic US issues.

Support from non-Americans means nothing.  Opposition from non-Americans means nothing.


If Trump's "Make American Great Again" means, as it seems to in many cases, given the international community the middle finger, then it isn't hard to imagine why foreign leads would welcome the former status quo.

You obviously missed the point.  Rational world leaders should be looking for an alternative to the status quo ante.  But for the most part, they are not.  China and Russia, for very different reasons, are, though it will take until at least the 2030s to see if their efforts pay off.


Note the amendment ^ ^ ^. Of course they can. it's easy if those Americans own businesses with foreign customers. Want to put money in Trump's pocket? Simple as booking unused rooms in Trump International Hotel (ghost booking). Or through real estate transactions.

Ah, yes, the Trump self-enrichment line of reasoning.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 27, 2020, 09:10:10 AM
     The US can affect changes in the status quo in a cooperative manner. It's rational to do it that way. We don't need Trumpy Tantrum Time to continue. European geniuses will probably agree.

     If rational European leaders think NATO should be maintained, I don't see a downside. It will change. Russia will continue to drink itself to death and be dangerous until it does. It suffers the curse of resource dependence, and it doesn't exactly help that poison energy is declining.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Fëanor on November 27, 2020, 10:34:06 AM
Quote from: Feanor
I guess one might say that a non-American Trump supporter is one who comes to a forums such as this, with Americans as well as others, and advocates for Donald Trump.  A non-American Trump opponent, such as me, would be one who comes here to advocated against Trump whether on international or -- for that matter -- domestic US issues.

Support from non-Americans means nothing.  Opposition from non-Americans means nothing.

None are so deaf as refuse to listen.

Quote from: Feanor
If Trump's "Make American Great Again" means, as it seems to in many cases, given the international community the middle finger, then it isn't hard to imagine why foreign leads would welcome the former status quo.  Just a personal opinion of course, but neglecting much less abuse allies doesn't seem to be an enlightened strategy even for the USA.

You obviously missed the point.  Rational world leaders should be looking for an alternative to the status quo ante.  But for the most part, they are not.  China and Russia, for very different reasons, are, though it will take until at least the 2030s to see if their efforts pay off.

I not sure that world leader are so oblivious to the evolving situation as you imply.  However Trump ought to have tried persuading rather than demeaning, bullying, and threatening.  Demeaning, bullying, and threatening isn't necessarily the best way to approach adversaries much less friends and allies.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: BasilValentine on November 27, 2020, 10:39:20 AM
Ah, yes, the Trump self-enrichment line of reasoning.

It's not a "line of reasoning." It's a direct refutation of your naive claim that "Non-Americans cannot support American politicians in any real-world way." Obviously, they can.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 27, 2020, 10:40:38 AM
     


I not sure that world leader are so oblivious to the evolving situation as you imply.  However Trump ought to have tried persuading rather than demeaning, bullying, and threatening.  Demeaning, bullying, and threatening isn't necessarily the best way to approach adversaries much less friends and allies.

     Trump had no rational alternative to offer. Neither do anti-anti-Trumpsters. They mean nothing.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 27, 2020, 10:53:27 AM
Support from non-Americans means nothing.  Opposition from non-Americans means nothing.

None are so deaf as refuse to listen.

I should like to see some academic research that points to the impact international opinion has on voting in the US.  I know a good number of non-Americans want to believe that their opinions really matter, but that does not make it so.  There is no reason at all to pay attention to what, say, Swedes think about American politics.  The internet and the ability of everyone from everywhere to opine on everything does not translate into effectual opinions and influence.

Support from non-Americans means nothing.  Opposition from non-Americans means nothing.


You obviously missed the point.  Rational world leaders should be looking for an alternative to the status quo ante.  But for the most part, they are not.  China and Russia, for very different reasons, are, though it will take until at least the 2030s to see if their efforts pay off.

I not sure that world leader are so oblivious to the evolving situation as you imply.  However Trump ought to have tried persuading rather than demeaning, bullying, and threatening.  Demeaning, bullying, and threatening isn't necessarily the best way to approach adversaries much less friends and allies.

Demeaning and threatening - the word "bullying" means pretty much nothing generally, and absolutely nothing in the realm of international relations - are effective tools, though they should be used more judiciously than how Trump often used them.  The tactics should be used on friend and foe alike, depending on the objective and situation.  Sometimes, like when Trump strong-armed Canada in signing a new trade agreement, demeaning and threatening can be very useful, indeed.  (To be sure, that was politically beneficial.)

I have no doubt that even modestly effective world leaders are aware of the evolving state of world affairs, yet no national leaders currently covered by US security agreements have taken effective steps to break away from US security guarantees (small, weak countries are security consumers, not security producers, so that's easy to explain), and steps taken to reduce the central role of the dollar and US Treasuries as the backbone of the international financial system have not even been strong enough to be called feeble.  Small, weak nations are dependent on the US.  It's quite embarrassing for said nations, really.


It's not a "line of reasoning." It's a direct refutation of your naive claim that "Non-Americans cannot support American politicians in any real-world way." Obviously, they can.

Or not.  Let's go with not.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: MusicTurner on November 27, 2020, 11:02:04 AM
Note the amendment ^ ^ ^. Of course they can. it's easy if those Americans own businesses with foreign customers. Want to put money in Trump's pocket? Simple as booking unused rooms in Trump International Hotel (ghost booking). Or through real estate transactions.

As a side remark, lots of European youngsters, including Danes, travel to US presidential campaigns, and directly assist in campaigns over there, typically for the democrats. A good deal of them will traditionally be interviewed by the media here. Their work includes phone calls and visiting potential voters. For campaigning.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 27, 2020, 11:11:17 AM
As a side remark, lots of European youngsters, including Danes, travel to US presidential campaigns, and directly assist in campaigns over there, typically for the democrats. A good deal of them will traditionally be interviewed by the media here. Their work includes phone calls and visiting potential voters. For campaigning.


What is "lots"?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 27, 2020, 11:11:42 AM
     Should Donald Trump be prosecuted? Proceed with caution. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/should-donald-trump-be-prosecuted-proceed-with-caution/2020/11/25/3274900a-2f4d-11eb-96c2-aac3f162215d_story.html)

Prosecuting Trump may well be justified, but the consequences of further inflaming an already divided country ought to be sobering. A decision this momentous needs to be made on the merits and kept as far from politics as possible.

     I don't think it's at all likely that the new administration would look favorably on reckless prosecution. It isn't going to work like that. Adam Schiff won't be AG. It might be Sally Yates, a pick which would be very Bidenesque, a former deputy AG that could detoxify the department.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 27, 2020, 11:25:16 AM

     It really depends on how much foreign policy affects your vote. If you care about foreign relations then foreign opinion will matter, though indirectly. If you don't consider the US position in the world as a voting factor, you probably won't be interested in what people in other countries think.

     For me it's a matter of satisfying my own curiosity and preoccupation with history as a means of evaluating the present and probabilities for the future. "Means nothing" means nothing to me.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 27, 2020, 11:41:29 AM

I have no doubt that even modestly effective world leaders are aware of the evolving state of world affairs, yet no national leaders currently covered by US security agreements have taken effective steps to break away from US security guarantees (small, weak countries are security consumers, not security producers, so that's easy to explain), and steps taken to reduce the central role of the dollar and US Treasuries as the backbone of the international financial system have not even been strong enough to be called feeble.


     Yes, they are making rational choices. There's no need to yammer about alternatives that are less rational than what they do now. If they start to demonstrate they are suffering from the terrible oppression of the Yankee dollar, we'll know. The Trumpist view was that dastardly foreigners were taking advantage of us!
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 27, 2020, 01:13:38 PM
As a side remark, lots of European youngsters, including Danes, travel to US presidential campaigns, and directly assist in campaigns over there, typically for the democrats. A good deal of them will traditionally be interviewed by the media here. Their work includes phone calls and visiting potential voters. For campaigning.

Some, too, in more strategic spots, if it so happens that they have political experience.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: MusicTurner on November 27, 2020, 02:33:40 PM
Some, too, in more strategic spots, if it so happens that they have political experience.

Yes, they might even participate in planning etc.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: SimonNZ on November 27, 2020, 03:22:20 PM
The article doesn't address it, but this time it would be treason, wouldn't it? If national secrets leave the blabbing unthinking mouth of Citizen Trump he would no longer have the protection from the law he's recently enjoyed in blabbing secrets?:


When he leaves office, can ex-President Trump be trusted with America's national security secrets?
Ex-presidents are entitled to classified briefings. Some ex-intel officials think Trump shouldn't get access to any national secrets when he leaves office. (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/when-he-leaves-office-can-ex-president-trump-be-trusted-n1248994)

[...]"Goldsmith and other experts noted that Trump has a history of carelessly revealing classified information. He told the Russian foreign minister and ambassador in 2017 about extremely sensitive terrorism threat information the U.S. had received from an ally. Last year he tweeted what experts said was a secret satellite photo of an Iranian nuclear installation.

The president also may be vulnerable to foreign influence. His tax records, as reported by The New York Times, reveal that Trump appears to face financial challenges, having personally guaranteed more than $400 million of his companies' debt at a time when the pandemic has put pressure on the hotel industry, in which Trump is a major player.

[...]That said, Trump probably is not conversant with many highly classified details, experts say, He was famous for paying only intermittent attention during his intelligence briefings and declining to read his written materials. Moreover, intelligence officials tend not to share specifics about sources and methods with any president, unless he asks.

So Trump probably doesn't know the names of the CIA's spies in Russia, experts say. But presumably he knows a bit about the capabilities of American surveillance drones, for example, or how adept the National Security Agency has been at intercepting the communications of various foreign governments.

Like so much with Trump, his track record of sharing secrets has been unprecedented in American presidential history.

In interviews with the journalist Bob Woodward for a book released this fall, Trump boasted about a secret nuclear weapons system that neither Russia nor China knew about.

According to The Washington Post, Woodward's sources "later confirmed that the U.S. military had a secret new weapons system, but they would not provide details, and that the people were surprised Trump had disclosed it."

When Trump briefed the public about the commando raid that killed ISIS leader Abu Bakr al Baghdadi, he disclosed classified and sensitive details, according to reporting by NBC News.

In 2017, Trump gave the location of two American nuclear submarines near North Korea to the president of the Philippines.

That same year, a member of his golf club at Mar-a-Lago took a photo of a briefing Trump and the Japanese prime minister were receiving in a public area about North Korea, and posted it on Facebook.

In 2018, The New York Times reported that Trump commonly used insecure cellphones to call friends, and that Chinese and other spies listened in, gaining valuable insights.

Doug Wise, a former CIA officer and Trump critic, argued this week in a piece on the Just Security web site that Trump has long posed a national security danger, and that affording him access to secrets after he leaves the White House would compound that danger.

Trump's large debts, he wrote, present "obvious and alarming counterintelligence risks" to the United States.

Russian President Vladimir Putin, for one, would have a great incentive to pay Trump to act on Russia's behalf, Wise wrote.

"Assuming President Joe Biden follows custom, Trump would continue to have access to sensitive information that the Russians would consider valuable," he wrote. "As horrifying as it would seem, could a financially leveraged former president be pressured or blackmailed into providing Moscow sensitive information in exchange for financial relief and future Russian business considerations?"

It was not impossible to envision Trump paid millions on retainer by Gulf Arab states or other foreign governments, Harvard professor Goldsmith said, "in the course of which he starts blabbing and disclosing lots of secrets. It wouldn't be an express quid pro quo, but people would pay for access to and time with him, knowing that he will not be discreet."

Former CIA Director John Brennan, a frequent Trump critic who was denied access to his own classified file by the president, said the Biden administration should carefully weigh the question of Trump's access to future secrets.

"The new administration would be well advised to conduct an immediate review to determine whether Donald Trump should have continued access to classified information in light of his past actions and deep concern about what he might do in the future," he said.

Then again, it may never become an issue, said former CIA officer Marc Polymeropoulos, who pointed out that Trump has long displayed "disdain" for American intelligence agencies.

"I would frankly be surprised if he even wanted these briefings," Polymeropoulos said."


Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 27, 2020, 03:30:19 PM

     We should let him keep the tiny desk.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: SimonNZ on November 27, 2020, 03:31:18 PM
     (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Enz_9RPUYAEh5yW?format=jpg&name=small)

       

Wow. Even after everything I thought at first that that must be The Onion.

So that's in the Oval Office, right? Why have they removed the carpet and the furniture? Especially if Trump is still claiming he won?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on November 27, 2020, 03:50:58 PM
Yes, I ask.  Really.  What is a non-American Trump "supporter"?  What does that mean?  Does it mean they are fans, or something similar?  Non-Americans cannot support American politicians in any real-world way (money, campaigning, voting, etc).  Moral support is worthless.  Just as worthless as moral opposition.

Non-Americans have been asked in polls (yes, we have polls outside the US!):

Which one of Trump and Biden do you want to win the election?

Some people answered Biden. Some other people answered Trump. Some people answered they don't have an opinion. That's how you get supporters for Biden and Trump among people who couldn't vote for them.

Moral support is worthless, you are correct about that, but it is support nevertheless. Support is often worthless. For example 2/3 of Americans support medicare for all. Doesn't mean it's happening anytime soon. So, it is worthless support. There is no vote on medicare for all this 2/3 majority of Americans could win just as I as an non-American could not vote for Biden or Trump. Regular Americans supporting a healthcare system is worthless, because the US is an oligarchy where the insurance companies and Big Pharma dictate the healthcare system almost completely.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: JBS on November 27, 2020, 05:38:00 PM
Wow. Even after everything I thought at first that that must be The Onion.

So that's in the Oval Office, right? Why have they removed the carpet and the furniture? Especially if Trump is still claiming he won?

It's not the Oval Office, although I'm not sure which room it's in.  And I've just realized that "Google Lens" is much less useful than the old Image Search function.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: JBS on November 27, 2020, 07:17:57 PM
Two tweets, one showing the room as it was under Obama, the other showing President Bush Sr using the desk for an outdoor signing ceremony.

https://mobile.twitter.com/snowmanomics/status/1332364059061182467

https://mobile.twitter.com/YAppelbaum/status/1332343700198920193

Quote
If the second photo seems grotesque, it isn't because of the desk.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: SimonNZ on November 27, 2020, 07:58:02 PM
Ah...the Diplomatic Reception Room.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 28, 2020, 12:42:00 AM
The article doesn't address it, but this time it would be treason, wouldn't it? If national secrets leave the blabbing unthinking mouth of Citizen Trump he would no longer have the protection from the law he's recently enjoyed in blabbing secrets?:



In 2017, Trump gave the location of two American nuclear submarines near North Korea to the president of the Philippines.


Russian President Vladimir Putin, for one, would have a great incentive to pay Trump to act on Russia's behalf, Wise wrote.



Oh, but Putin would not have to pay a dime. The art of Trump's deal is he's giving away his secrets for free, because he wants to impress these people. He's so easy to play it's ridiculous. He's a six year old, and he should definitely take this tiny desk home, in January.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on November 28, 2020, 01:00:26 AM
The Trump campaign paid three million dollars for a recount in two Wisconsin counties. As a result Biden got a few votes further ahead.

As in Michigan there are reports of Republica observers harrassing the volunteers doing the recount. It seems these people have not taken the trouble to familiarize themselves with the rules and regulations; they are just there to slow things down and make life miserable for the people doing the actual work. There was this guy in Michigan who said he didn't care about the law; he just did what the R party had told him.

"Election officials in Wisconsin complained earlier this week that observers representing the Trump campaign were obstructing the recount.

Observers broke the rules by constantly interrupting vote counters with questions and comments, complained Milwaukee County Clerk George Christenson. According to election officials, a Trump observer objected to every ballot that tabulators pulled from a bag to count simply because they were folded."
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 28, 2020, 06:57:24 AM
Non-Americans have been asked in polls (yes, we have polls outside the US!):


Yes, and they mean nothing.  When I see foreign poll results, I remember how John Kerry was preferred by 90%+ of Norwegians in 2004.  Remember, when it comes to the presidency of the US, the US has 538 Electoral Votes.  The rest of the world combined has 0. 

I may do some web sleuthing to see if any psychologists or psychiatrists have conducted research on why people fixate on politics in countries other than their own given that their fixation is intrinsically meaningless.  There must be some explanations for such irrational behavior.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 28, 2020, 07:05:39 AM

Yes, and they mean nothing.  When I see foreign poll results, I remember how John Kerry was preferred by 90%+ of Norwegians in 2004.  Remember, when it comes to the presidency of the US, the US has 538 Electoral Votes.  The rest of the world combined has 0. 

I may do some web sleuthing to see if any psychologists or psychiatrists have conducted research on why people fixate on politics in countries other than their own given that their fixation is intrinsically meaningless.  There must be some explanations for such irrational behavior.

     There's nothing mental about having an interest in the politics of other countries, even tiny shithole countries. I think you are being a little disingenuous here, since you have "means nothing" interests just like normal people do.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 28, 2020, 07:23:39 AM
2021 will have some national political highlights.  Like this: Republicans ready to become deficit hawks again under a President Biden (https://thehill.com/homenews/news/527197-republicans-ready-to-become-deficit-hawks-again-under-a-president-biden)

The phrases "debt ceiling" and "debt crisis" appear in the article.  Oh yeah!

And then there's this: Biden's Cabinet a battleground for future GOP White House hopefuls (https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/527654-bidens-cabinet-a-battleground-for-future-gop-white-house-hopefuls)

I'm mostly interested in seeing how Tommy capitalizes on appointment battles.  I admit that I like Little Marco's line that Biden's national security picks are "polite & orderly caretakers of America’s decline", but I'm not convinced he will be able to follow that up with anything substantive in terms of building broader support.  He really needs to flesh out his vision of economic nationalism to gain traction.

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Fëanor on November 28, 2020, 07:54:29 AM

Yes, and they mean nothing.  When I see foreign poll results, I remember how John Kerry was preferred by 90%+ of Norwegians in 2004.  Remember, when it comes to the presidency of the US, the US has 538 Electoral Votes.  The rest of the world combined has 0. 

I may do some web sleuthing to see if any psychologists or psychiatrists have conducted research on why people fixate on politics in countries other than their own given that their fixation is intrinsically meaningless.  There must be some explanations for such irrational behavior.

So probably foreign polls and foreign opinion mean nothing when it comes to who gets elected.  I've known arrogant Americans who considered adverse foreign opinion of their favorite candidate to be a good thing, and the more reason to vote for them.  Point conceded.  8)

As for why foreigners care about elections in foreign countries, it's clear:  they and their countries are affected by the results -- and in no case more so than when the country is the USA.

When "Make America Great Again" means greatness only in the eyes of Americans while everywhere else the USA is increasingly despised, then the "greatness" is a narcissistic self-delusion.  (Trump know a lot about narcissistic self-delusion as do his staunch supporters.)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 28, 2020, 08:03:55 AM
As for why foreigners care about elections in foreign countries, it's clear:  they and their countries are affected by the results -- and in no case more so than when the country is the USA.

Of course small, weak countries are affected by electoral outcomes in the US.  That doesn't make fixating on the internal politics of another country rational behavior.  Not at all.


When "Make America Great Again" means greatness only in the eyes of Americans while everywhere else the USA is increasingly despised, then the "greatness" is a narcissistic self-delusion.

Meh.  The US has been despised for decades.  Longer, even.  The mighty empires of Europe, for instance, were left aghast when the upstart US could summon tens of millions of dollars on a whim to wage war on Spain in 1898.  And despite being "despised", small, weak countries still clamor for protection from the US, and access to US capital markets.  Small, weak countries just can't get enough of US guns and money.  Some small, weak countries - Canada and Mexico come to mind - will never be able to break away from the US, as their entire economic structure is so reliant upon the North American colossus.

Again, most non-American leaders have every opportunity to break away from the existing international order, yet aside from bad guy countries, all they do is complain.  Maybe 2021 is the year things change.  Let's see. 
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 28, 2020, 08:17:10 AM
     
So probably foreign polls and foreign opinion mean nothing when it comes to who gets elected.

     Rest assured, it doesn't. It's more like who gets elected has an effect on foreign polls and opinion.

     Foreign governments are probably in a holding pattern on the Trumpeo Stupid America regime. Accelerated decline understandably makes them nervous. If decline must happen, it should be professionally done. Even Little Marco knows this when he's not doing infotainment blurbs.

     One can sample Finnish opinion in a Big Brainy way without fixating overmuch. Also, one can discuss! Is this not the Diner? Are we not Big of Brain?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 28, 2020, 08:29:41 AM
Another feel good story from the failing New York Times: How Democrats Suffered Crushing Down-Ballot Losses Across America (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/28/us/politics/democrats-republicans-state-legislatures.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage)

Quote from: Trip Gabriel
This year, Democrats targeted a dozen state legislative chambers where Republicans held tenuous majorities, including in Pennsylvania, Texas, Arizona, North Carolina and Minnesota. Their goal was to check the power of Republicans to redraw congressional and legislative districts in 2021, and to curb the rightward drift of policies from abortion to gun safety to voting rights.

But in all cases, Democrats came up short. None of their targeted legislative chambers flipped, even though Mr. Biden carried many of the districts that down-ballot Democrats did not. It could make it harder for Democrats to retain a House majority in 2022.

I almost feel bad for Dems given the outright ineptitude of their leadership, logistics, and retail politics. 

jk

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 28, 2020, 08:31:21 AM

     At the investment site I frequent I criticize the "contrarian" view, though not because it's entirely wrong about how people think in groups. What I notice is that self-identified contrarians are among the most regimented thought producers. Their thoughts on gold, Fed supremacy, monetary inflation and other bugaboos is cookie-cutterish to the max. As it is Above, so it is in the Diner. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: MusicTurner on November 28, 2020, 08:34:24 AM
     
     Rest assured, it doesn't. It's more like who gets elected has an effect on foreign polls and opinion.

     Foreign governments are probably in a holding pattern on the Trumpeo Stupid America regime. Accelerated decline understandably makes them nervous. If decline must happen, it should be professionally done. (...)

One aspect being of course, that in a discussion with 4 former Danish Foreign secretaries and a former ambassor in New York, they all agreed that Biden is likely to become the last 'classical', actively Pro-Atlantic and Pro-European US president as they have been known in the post-WWII years.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on November 28, 2020, 11:22:15 AM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-28/pennsylvania-judge-backs-trump-claim-in-case-over-mail-voting

This story has come up a couple of times in recent days. How significant is it? I can't tell.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 28, 2020, 11:25:34 AM
     
One aspect being of course, that in a discussion with 4 former Danish Foreign secretaries and a former ambassor in New York, they all agreed that Biden is likely to become the last 'classical', actively Pro-Atlantic and Pro-European US president as they have been known in the post-WWII years.

     Alliances don't disband, they just go quasi-dormant, like The Drudge Report, or become shells like Polaroid.

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 28, 2020, 11:39:47 AM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-28/pennsylvania-judge-backs-trump-claim-in-case-over-mail-voting

This story has come up a couple of times in recent days. How significant is it? I can't tell.

     There was supposed to be a hearing today but it was canceled because of the appeal. Repubs are arguing that they made procedural errors when they expanded mail in voting. Why this means voters should be disenfranchised for voting according to the law is beyond the minds of mere mortals.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: flyingdutchman on November 28, 2020, 02:11:29 PM
Of course, in the end, what matters when it comes to the election only US voters have any real say. BUT, certainly it is right and appropriate for non-US citizens to state their views and register their utter disgust for the idiot Trump and the equally idiotic fools who led this country down the yellow brick road for the past 4 years.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Brewski on November 28, 2020, 03:46:25 PM
Of course, in the end, what matters when it comes to the election only US voters have any real say. BUT, certainly it is right and appropriate for non-US citizens to state their views and register their utter disgust for the idiot Trump and the equally idiotic fools who led this country down the yellow brick road for the past 4 years.

"Right and appropriate," and thank you.

--Bruce
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on November 28, 2020, 04:20:29 PM
     There was supposed to be a hearing today but it was canceled because of the appeal. Repubs are arguing that they made procedural errors when they expanded mail in voting. Why this means voters should be disenfranchised for voting according to the law is beyond the minds of mere mortals.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-28/pennsylvania-judge-backs-trump-claim-in-case-over-mail-voting

The Pennsylvania Supreme Court allowed the state to complete its certification of the presidential vote won by Democrat Joe Biden, reversing a temporary delay ordered by a lower court judge and throwing out a challenge filed by state Republicans.

The high court on Saturday rejected the attack on the state’s mail-voting law, enacted last year, saying Republicans waited too long to sue. The Supreme Court issued a sharply worded order, turning aside the “extraordinary proposition that the court disenfranchise all 6.9 million Pennsylvanians who voted in the General Election” and throw the decision to the state legislature.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: SimonNZ on November 28, 2020, 04:56:06 PM
Trump supporter who gave $2.5m to fight election fraud wants money back (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/28/trump-donor-election-fraud-sues-money-back)

"A Donald Trump supporter who donated $2.5m to help expose and prosecute claims of fraud in the presidential election wants his money back after what he says are “disappointing results”.

Fredric Eshelman, a businessman from North Carolina, said he gave the money to True the Vote, a pro-Trump “election ethics” group in Texas that promised to file lawsuits in seven swing states as part of its push to “investigate, litigate, and expose suspected illegal balloting and fraud in the 2020 general election”.

But according to a lawsuit Eshelman filed this week in Houston, first reported by Bloomberg, True the Vote dropped its legal actions and discontinued its Validate the Vote 2020 campaign, then refused to return his calls when he demanded an explanation.

The founder of Eshelman Ventures llc, a venture capital company, said he asked “regularly and repeatedly” for updates, the lawsuit asserts, but that his “requests were consistently met with vague responses, platitudes, and empty promises”.[...]
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 28, 2020, 05:52:37 PM

The founder of Eshelman Ventures llc, a venture capital company, said he asked “regularly and repeatedly” for updates, the lawsuit asserts, but that his “requests were consistently met with vague responses, platitudes, and empty promises”.[...]

     It would be a crime against humanity to give money back to someone this dumb.
     
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Fëanor on November 30, 2020, 05:46:34 AM
Of course small, weak countries are affected by electoral outcomes in the US.  That doesn't make fixating on the internal politics of another country rational behavior.  Not at all.
~~

Meh.  The US has been despised for decades.  Longer, even.  The mighty empires of Europe, for instance, were left aghast when the upstart US could summon tens of millions of dollars on a whim to wage war on Spain in 1898.  And despite being "despised", small, weak countries still clamor for protection from the US, and access to US capital markets.  Small, weak countries just can't get enough of US guns and money.  Some small, weak countries - Canada and Mexico come to mind - will never be able to break away from the US, as their entire economic structure is so reliant upon the North American colossus.

Again, most non-American leaders have every opportunity to break away from the existing international order, yet aside from bad guy countries, all they do is complain.  Maybe 2021 is the year things change.  Let's see.

American arrogance on parade:  see above.

"Small and weak" though they may be, these countries do not benefit from association with the USA on account of American beneficence or altruism:  it's on account of mutual advantage.

This is a fact not evident to Donald Trump or, apparently, his supporters.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 30, 2020, 06:00:07 AM
American arrogance on parade:  see above.

"Small and weak" though they may be, these countries do not benefit from association with the USA on account of American beneficence or altruism:  it's on account of mutual advantage.

This is a fact not evident to Donald Trump or, apparently, his supporters.


Of course small, weak countries benefit from working with the US.  At some point, though - and one would have thought that point had been reached after all the griping of the Trump and before that Bush II years - it would seem reasonable for small, weak countries to start considering alternative structures for international security and finance.  Instead, NATO expanded yet again in 2020 to include another small, weak country clamoring for US protection, and in the wake of both 9/11 and 2007/8, the US dollar is more central to the global economy than before, US Treasuries act as collateral for more financial transactions than before, other countries come hat in hand like beggars to the Fed more frequently, and small, weak countries continue their embarrassing dependence on Uncle Sam and US taxpayers.  No international system lasts forever, as history very clearly demonstrates, but the pathetic response by small, weak countries this century makes one wonder just what it will take for other countries to start pursuing alternatives.  I mean countries that can.  Canada and Mexico are locked in, like it or not. 
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 30, 2020, 07:50:17 AM
Ongoing (live at the moment):  The US Supreme Court hears arguments in a case involving President Trump's attempt to exclude undocumented immigrants from being counted in the Census. The Supreme Court will also hear a second case that examines the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act.

https://www.cnn.com/specials/live-video-1

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 30, 2020, 07:54:50 AM
Of course small, weak countries benefit from working with the US.  At some point, though - and one would have thought that point had been reached after all the griping of the Trump and before that Bush II years - it would seem reasonable for small, weak countries to start considering alternative structures for international security and finance.  Instead, NATO expanded yet again in 2020 to include another small, weak country clamoring for US protection, and in the wake of both 9/11 and 2007/8, the US dollar is more central to the global economy than before, US Treasuries act as collateral for more financial transactions than before, other countries come hat in hand like beggars to the Fed more frequently, and small, weak countries continue their embarrassing dependence on Uncle Sam and US taxpayers.  No international system lasts forever, as history very clearly demonstrates, but the pathetic response by small, weak countries this century makes one wonder just what it will take for other countries to start pursuing alternatives.  I mean countries that can.  Canada and Mexico are locked in, like it or not.

The small, weak country that is Romania was enormously helped into existence by three foreign persons: Napoleon III, Georges Clemenceau and Woodrow Wilson. I am ashamed, and publicly state it, that neither of them is honored in Romania by a statue, or an avenue/square name.

As for our dependence on USA, I'll just quote a former Romanian president (the best so far): "I'd rather give a blowjob to the POTUS than to Putin" --- if you'll excuse my his French.  ;D
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 30, 2020, 08:24:20 AM

     I refuse to be embarrassed on behalf of small weak countries oppressed by the Yankee dollar. Let them be unembarrassed. Let the Fed be as responsible as it deems fit.

     The US buys more from the world than it sells in goods and services, so the world saves in Treasuries. The Chinese might be embarrassed by this arrangement even though they are not small and weak. China has high hopes that one day they can replace the dollar. I think it has dawned on them that they must be big consumers first if they want the world to save Chinese money.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 30, 2020, 08:39:39 AM
The small, weak country that is Romania was enormously helped into existence by three foreign persons: Napoleon III, Georges Clemenceau and Woodrow Wilson. I am ashamed, and publicly state it, that neither of them is honored in Romania by a statue, or an avenue/square name.


Wait long enough, and people start toppling statues of various personages.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 30, 2020, 08:43:22 AM
Wait long enough, and people start toppling statues of various personages.

Btw, if all names even remotely or obliquely related to slavery and racism should be get rid of, then how about the Democratic Party?  ;D ;D ;D





Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 30, 2020, 09:15:35 AM
Btw, if all names even remotely or obliquely related to slavery and racism should be get rid of, then how about the Democratic Party?  ;D ;D ;D


Shhhh!
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 30, 2020, 09:34:48 AM
Shhhh!

Has the Democratic Party ever officially and publicly apologized for its blatantly racist and slavery-supporting past ?







Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: North Star on November 30, 2020, 09:40:37 AM
The small, weak country that is Romania was enormously helped into existence by three foreign persons: Napoleon III, Georges Clemenceau and Woodrow Wilson. I am ashamed, and publicly state it, that neither of them is honored in Romania by a statue, or an avenue/square name.

As for our dependence on USA, I'll just quote a former Romanian president (the best so far): "I'd rather give a blowjob to the POTUS than to Putin" --- if you'll excuse my his French.  ;D
Whereas Finland owes its independence to Lenin and Hitler, and was declared a war on by the UK (together with Romania and Hungary). I am ashamed to say that there is a statue of Lenin still in the coastal city of Kotka, erected in 1979, a gift from the city of Tallinn. And also a couple of statues in the Tampere Lenin museum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampere_Lenin_Museum).

La multi ani, Andrei!
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 30, 2020, 09:44:39 AM
Whereas Finland owes its independence to Lenin and Hitler, and was declared a war on by the UK (together with Romania and Hungary). I am ashamed to say that there is a statue of Lenin still in the coastal city of Kotka, erected in 1979, a gift from the city of Tallinn. And also a couple of statues in the Tampere Lenin museum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampere_Lenin_Museum).

Romania 3 - Finland 2.   ;D

I do wonder though: when and why did Romania declare war on Finland?  :o
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 30, 2020, 09:45:39 AM
La multi ani, Andrei!

Thank you, Karlo, many happy returns to you too!
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: North Star on November 30, 2020, 09:50:35 AM
Romania 3 - Finland 2.   ;D

I do wonder though: when and why did Romania declare war on Finland?  :o
No, the UK declared war on Finland, Romania and Hungary in World War II.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 30, 2020, 09:53:07 AM
No, the UK declared war on Finland, Romania and Hungary in World War II.

Ah, okay, got it.  :)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 30, 2020, 09:53:14 AM
     Repubs have yet to officially apologize for Lincoln. Seriously, though, we don't really need the words, do we?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 30, 2020, 09:55:46 AM
     Repubs have yet to officially apologize for Lincoln.

Why?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 30, 2020, 10:05:54 AM
Why?

     An official repudiation might ruffle the feathers of that portion of Repubs who wish to fantasize that they belong to the "Party of Lincoln". It's not how I do things, as I think a political party is what it does more than what its name used to mean.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 30, 2020, 10:20:27 AM

Whereas Finland owes its independence to Lenin and Hitler, and was declared a war on by the UK (together with Romania and Hungary). I am ashamed to say that there is a statue of Lenin still in the coastal city of Kotka, erected in 1979, a gift from the city of Tallinn. And also a couple of statues in the Tampere Lenin museum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampere_Lenin_Museum).

La multi ani, Andrei!

     Lenin recognized Finnish independence after Finland declared it.

     From the Encyclopedia Drogulania:

By a law of July 1917 it was decided that all the authority previously wielded by the emperor (apart from defense and foreign policy) should be exercised by the Finnish Parliament. After Russia was taken over by the Bolsheviks in November 1917 Parliament issued a declaration of independence for Finland on December 6, 1917, which was recognized by Lenin and his government on the last day of the year.

     I guess that's worth a statue.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 30, 2020, 10:27:39 AM
Has the Democratic Party ever officially and publicly apologized for its blatantly racist and slavery-supporting past ?


I think some Dems have.  Some even pay lip service to reparations from time to time, as though that may happen. 
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 30, 2020, 11:34:09 AM
     I think a political party is what it does more than what its name used to mean.

Then I guess you'd be in favor of lifting the current ban on the Romanian Communist Parrty.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: JBS on November 30, 2020, 11:55:50 AM
The small, weak country that is Romania was enormously helped into existence by three foreign persons: Napoleon III, Georges Clemenceau and Woodrow Wilson. I am ashamed, and publicly state it, that neither of them is honored in Romania by a statue, or an avenue/square name.

As for our dependence on USA, I'll just quote a former Romanian president (the best so far): "I'd rather give a blowjob to the POTUS than to Putin" --- if you'll excuse my his French.  ;D

Wilson was an old style racist Democrat who actively pushed blacks out of the federal civil service, among other things. Princeton over the summer began the ritual process of de-Wilsoning its campus. Definitely not a person to be statued.

[And that's over and above the question of whether his approach to post WWI peace helped lay the groundwork for WWII.]
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 30, 2020, 12:07:11 PM
Wilson was an old style racist [...]

So was Voltaire, the icon of the Enlightenment. He even traded slaves. Go tell the French he's definitely not a person to be statued or avenued.

Quote
[And that's over and above the question of whether his approach to post WWI peace helped lay the groundwork for WWII.]

His 14 Points greatly helped Greater Romania into being recognized internationally. That's merit enough for me.

Heck, there are Karl Marx* squares in France or Lenin statues in Finland. Why, and whom, should a Wilson square in Bucharest offend?

*Not to mention that none other than Jean-Claude Juncker sang the praises of Karl Marx a few years ago --- much to the indignation of Poles, Romanians and Baltics.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 30, 2020, 12:19:34 PM
I think some Dems have. 

Honor and respect to them!
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 30, 2020, 12:46:56 PM
Then I guess you'd be in favor of lifting the current ban on the Romanian Communist Parrty.

     I don't know how your ban works. Are you banning people, or a name, or outlawing an ideology?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 30, 2020, 01:03:32 PM
     I don't know how your ban works. Are you banning people, or a name, or outlawing an ideology?

Romanian Criminal Code, Article 166.

Totalitarian State Propaganda

Any public propaganda in favor of establishing a totaliitarian state, by any means whatsoever, shall be punished by a 6-month to 5-year prison sentence and the interdict of some civil rights.

In the sense of this article, propaganda means systematically spreading or defending ideas, notions or doctrines intended to convince or attract new members.


Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 30, 2020, 01:18:35 PM
Romanian Criminal Code, Article 166.

Totalitarian State Propaganda

Any public propaganda in favor of establishing a totaliitarian state, by any means whatsoever, shall be punished by 6-month to 5-year prison and the interdict of some civil rights.

In the sense of this article, propaganda means systematically spreading or defending ideas, notions or doctrines intended to convince or attract new members.




     Wow, that sucks. You don't have to get kooky and give free speech rights to money, but can't you at least protect the speech rights of people? I'd be worried that the idea of totalitarian speech would be defined as what the government wants to prohibit.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 30, 2020, 01:42:17 PM
     Wow, that sucks. You don't have to get kooky and give free speech rights to money, but can't you at least protect the speech rights of people? I'd be worried that the idea of totalitarian speech would be defined as what the government wants to prohibit.

I do agree that the legalese sucks ---after all, democratically elected lawmakers are not the brightest of people --- but the idea is right. It covers Communists, Fascists and Nazists.

It's really easy for you, who have never ever experienced the consequences of any totalitarian propaganda, to dismiss such criminal code regulations as dangerous --- yet by  my personal experience I am absolutely sure that giving unconditional leeway to Communists, Fascists and Nazists would only aid and abet them. Crushing them in their craddle is the safest route to take --- just imagine Lenin being hanged immediately after stepping on Russian soil, or Hitler being hanged immediatelly after the Beer Hall Putsch.  ;D


Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 30, 2020, 02:20:22 PM
I do agree that the legalese sucks ---after all, democratically elected lawmakers are not the brightest of people --- but the idea is right. It covers Communists, Fascists and Nazists.

It's really easy for you, who have never ever experienced the consequences of any totalitarian propaganda, to dismiss such criminal code regulations as dangerous --- yet by  my personal experience I am absolutely sure that giving unconditional leeway to Communists, Fascists and Nazists would only aid and abet them. Crushing them in their craddle is the safest route to take --- just imagine Lenin being hanged immediately after stepping on Russian soil, or Hitler being hanged immediatelly after the Beer Hall Putsch.  ;D




     If citizens don't want a free country it will never be easy to achieve it. It's not the ideas of Nazis that will undermine the future of a country, it's the ideas of a greater number of citizens who give up on freedom because it's dangerous. Free countries have one thing in common above all else. They permit the expression of unpopular ideas, even at some risk that they are dangerous. They don't emulate what they hate.

      In a country that has grown up with free speech people exercise their brain muscles to combat truly bad ideas. The country will withstand Trumpist hatemongering with no ban, and not even the suggestion of one. It must be disappointing to some Trumpists that no one is going to crush them or outlaw their propaganda or convert them to Islam. They even get to keep their guns! (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/cheesy.gif)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 30, 2020, 02:25:38 PM
     If citizens don't want a free country it will never be easy to achieve it. It's not the ideas of Nazis that will undermine the future of a country, it's the ideas of a greater number of citizens who give up on freedom because it's dangerous. Free countries have one thing in common above all else. They permit the expression of unpopular ideas, even at some risk that they are dangerous. They don't emulate what they hate.

      In a country that has grown up with free speech people exercise their brain muscles to combat truly bad ideas. The country will withstand Trumpist hatemongering with no ban, and not even the suggestion of one. It must be disappointing to some Trumpists that no one is going to crush them or outlaw their propaganda or convert them to Islam. They even get to keep their guns! (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/cheesy.gif)

All this blah blah blah amounts to this: no matter what the Criminal Code of Romania says, the USA during Trump's presidency has never been anything else than a constitutional republic where the rule of law reigned supreme. I do agree.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on November 30, 2020, 02:28:59 PM
All this blah blah blah amounts to this: no matter what the Criminal Code of Romania says, the USA during Trump's presidency has never been anything else than a constitutional republic where the rule of law reigned supreme.


There are people who think otherwise?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 30, 2020, 02:31:02 PM
There are people who think otherwise?

Yes there are. Lots of them. Look no further than GMG. Look no fuirther than drogulus.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 30, 2020, 02:41:14 PM
All this blah blah blah amounts to this: no matter what the Criminal Code of Romania says, the USA during Trump's presidency has never been anything else than a constitutional republic where the rule of law reigned supreme. I do agree.

     Exactly so. The Deep State performed the way it was supposed to. The government of laws prevailed without the need to crush enemies. Repub election officials did their duty and resisted pressure to act corruptly. Nobody got banned or arrested for blatant lying.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 30, 2020, 02:49:36 PM
     Exactly so. The Deep State performed the way it was supposed to. The government of laws prevailed without the need to crush enemies. Repub election officials did their duty and resisted pressure to act corruptly. Nobody got banned or arrested for blatant lying.

And yet Trump was a would-be Fascist dictator who sought to undermine the USA Republic, and succeeded at least with respect to elections. The USA constitutional republicanism is much weaker today than it was before Trump and the fact that he's been voted out of power is no evidence that he was not a Fascist. Be honest (if you can): ain't all this what you've been claiming all along?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 30, 2020, 03:00:46 PM
And yet Trump was a would-be Fascist dictator who sought to undermine the USA Republic, and succeeded at least with respect to elections. The USA constitutional republicanism is much weaker today than it was before Trump and the fact that he's been voted out of power is no evidence that he was not a Fascist. Be honest (if you can): ain't all this what you've been claiming all along?

      Trump wanted to undermine the government without having a manifesto to guide his actions, so on that point I agree Trump doesn't qualify as a fascist. His actions are for himself, and the movement he inspired is one of loyalty to him, though it has strong resemblance to fascism on the Big Lie front, the stab in the back myth, hostility to international cooperation, intellectuals and elites generally, hatred of immigrants and sadism as policy. How fascist Trump is depends on the weight you give to each factor.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on November 30, 2020, 03:19:13 PM
      Trump wanted to undermine the government

Mind-reading.

Besides, Trump wanted his government to Make America Great Again. How could he have simultaneously done that and undermined the government is a mystery that future generations, wiser than ours, will have to ponder.

Quote
the stab in the back myth

The stab in the back myth is Nazi, not Fascist.

Quote
hostility to international cooperation,

The Berlin-Roma-Tokyo axis? Heck, Marshal Antonescu adhered to it as well.

Quote
intellectuals and elites generally

Fascism was intellectually defined, promoted and supported by such luminariies and intellectual elites as Gentile, Marinetti, Malaparte, Pirandello, Pizetti, Ungaretti.

Quote
hatred of immigrants

There were no immigrants in Italy before, during, or after Mussolini took power.

Quote
How fascist Trump is depends on the weight you give to each factor.

Trump is no Fascist at all.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 30, 2020, 04:09:31 PM

     The stab in the back myth was also used by Mussolini. Trump's mind is revealed by what he said and did. Alliances of ultranationalists don't fare well. Non cooperator states don't play nice with each other. Who knew?..... besides everyone, that is.

     Another factor is the support Trump received from avowed American fascists. I don't give them a veto but I do take their words and actions as strong evidence. I suppose their recognition might be a "next best thing" phenomenon.

     Another another factor is how scholars of fascism take the question seriously enough to consider evidence pro and con. No major political figure has been treated like that. It's not like leftists calling conservatives fascist, which scholars rightly ignore.

     Is Trump a fascist? 8 experts weigh in. (https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21521958/what-is-fascism-signs-donald-trump)

     If a consensus could be reached it would come out somewhere around "not quite".
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: milk on November 30, 2020, 09:11:28 PM
And yet Trump was a would-be Fascist dictator who sought to undermine the USA Republic, and succeeded at least with respect to elections. The USA constitutional republicanism is much weaker today than it was before Trump and the fact that he's been voted out of power is no evidence that he was not a Fascist. Be honest (if you can): ain't all this what you've been claiming all along?
As usual for me, I have a non-sequitur here as this back and forth seems to me to have gotten enough play here. I agree a little with both sides here: Yes, Tump has produced a lot of boring and drooling hysteria; most of my friends endlessly meme in this vein; I’m glad it’s all over (said Captain Sensible). Yes, tump was often THAT BAD in his failings and his verbiage at least.
So here’s my non sequitur: who is tump like exactly from history? He’s definitely an entertainingly weird guy - for me, the type of guy who would never get within 10 feet of management over anything if not for being born with a silver spoon in his mouth.
I was listening to a description of MacArthur and I thought he sounded a lot like turmp (except for the empirical facts supporting that MacArthur possessed real genius): grandiose idea of himself (talked about himself in the third person), a diva, overdramatic, great PR (and his communiques were always about himself), rather divorced from reality, accused of being pathologically mentally unfit by his peers, etc.
Does this sound right?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on November 30, 2020, 09:42:44 PM

     Fascism may be the most entertaining political aberration. They make hate fun. The Communists are boring. They don't know how to par-tee.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on December 01, 2020, 12:41:11 AM
Mind-reading.

Besides, Trump wanted his government to Make America Great Again. How could he have simultaneously done that and undermined the government is a mystery that future generations, wiser than ours, will have to ponder.



That's easy. That slogan was a lie, like pretty much everything. Hitler promised a Thousand Year Reich that only lasted ten years. But he kept on promising, because the little people need this.

The problem here is you have this need to believe the big man (I mean Trump); the same problem occurred with the GMG-er currently conducting his own psycho-analysis on another thread: if you can't conceive of a con-man telling a lie; if you want to take everything at face value, you're the con-man's mark.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on December 01, 2020, 01:06:12 AM
Other than this there is some heavy indulgence in "but Trump did not make it" so you can't say he has overwhelmning authoritarian leanings.

As has been mentioned before this is the same as acquitting a team of failed bank heisters who break in a bank and blow up the safe only to find there is no money. Ineptitude and stupidity does not equal a get out of jail free card.

And Trump did do a lot of damage to the system.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: milk on December 01, 2020, 02:01:26 AM
Other than this there is some heavy indulgence in "but Trump did not make it" so you can't say he has overwhelmning authoritarian leanings.

As has been mentioned before this is the same as acquitting a team of failed bank heisters who break in a bank and blow up the safe only to find there is no money. Ineptitude and stupidity does not equal a get out of jail free card.

And Trump did do a lot of damage to the system.
Just a thought but maybe it’s the psychic damage to us. Tump is such a strange case because he’s not a little anything. He’s the embodiment so much though. I feel sad because of what it says about the American people or maybe just people. I could never have imagined that a person like him could be elevated, let alone revered. It hurts that he’s so good at being bad at being anything good. I can’t name one thing he’s really good at. Some people seemed to think he was a really persuasive person (is it Scott Adams?). Huh? That guy wreaks of insincerity and cheapness. We’ve all been dirtied. There’s very little satisfaction at even beating him.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on December 01, 2020, 03:50:31 AM
I'd say he's a A1 snake oil salesman, i.e. marketeer.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Fëanor on December 01, 2020, 04:36:43 AM

Of course small, weak countries benefit from working with the US.  At some point, though - and one would have thought that point had been reached after all the griping of the Trump and before that Bush II years - it would seem reasonable for small, weak countries to start considering alternative structures for international security and finance.  Instead, NATO expanded yet again in 2020 to include another small, weak country clamoring for US protection, and in the wake of both 9/11 and 2007/8, the US dollar is more central to the global economy than before, US Treasuries act as collateral for more financial transactions than before, other countries come hat in hand like beggars to the Fed more frequently, and small, weak countries continue their embarrassing dependence on Uncle Sam and US taxpayers.  No international system lasts forever, as history very clearly demonstrates, but the pathetic response by small, weak countries this century makes one wonder just what it will take for other countries to start pursuing alternatives.  I mean countries that can.  Canada and Mexico are locked in, like it or not.

... A warped view of international relations and the place "small and weak" as well as the presently large & strong.

Sure, small, weak countries benefit from working with the USA;  sure, Canada and Mexico and others are "locked in".  The World benefits from international system in general, and last I checked the USA was still part of the world.

At this point in history is the USA is the largest and strongest player in the international system, but as you say, international systems come and go.  Should small, weak countries be looking elsewhere than to the USA for largest & strongest?  Is this what you mean by "alternatives"?

One thing is for damned sure and that is that the USA benefits from the international system.  Consider that Americans' indulgences resulting in a huge US deficit in goods & services which is financed by foreigners buying USD-denominated securities.  Hell yeah, the international system is propping up the USA.  If the small and weak start to look elsewhere that the USA, the US trade deficit problem will solve itself PDQ.

From one POV the USA may be seen as a parasite on the international system in that consumers more that it produces.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on December 01, 2020, 06:17:35 AM
Person you're talking to doesn't really know there's a world outside the US.

Typical American thinking US = World. (See: the World Series.)

And then there's the typical bipolar grievance / pride: "everybody hates us" / "the entire world wants to immigrate to the US".

Most people like the US just fine, binge-watching Hollywood made series and getting just as obese as 'Mericans.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on December 01, 2020, 06:51:15 AM
... A warped view of international relations and the place "small and weak" as well as the presently large & strong.

Incorrect.


The World benefits from international system in general

Vague to the point of irrelevance.


Should small, weak countries be looking elsewhere than to the USA for largest & strongest?  Is this what you mean by "alternatives"?

No.  There will be no shift in unipolarity from one hegemon to another. 


One thing is for damned sure and that is that the USA benefits from the international system.  Consider that Americans' indulgences resulting in a huge US deficit in goods & services which is financed by foreigners buying USD-denominated securities.  Hell yeah, the international system is propping up the USA.  If the small and weak start to look elsewhere that the USA, the US trade deficit problem will solve itself PDQ.

The US does benefit.  The existing framework has outlived its usefulness, and an alternative is needed, and has been for a long time.  Your statement about the US trade deficit does not comport with either statistical evidence or any extant international trade theory.


From one POV the USA may be seen as a parasite on the international system in that consumers more that it produces.

Correct.  Which simply reinforces the idea that non-Americans should begin seeking alternatives.


Person you're talking to doesn't really know there's a world outside the US.

Typical American thinking US = World. (See: the World Series.)

And then there's the typical bipolar grievance / pride: "everybody hates us" / "the entire world wants to immigrate to the US".

Most people like the US just fine, binge-watching Hollywood made series and getting just as obese as 'Mericans.

Incorrect.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Fëanor on December 01, 2020, 07:18:31 AM
...
One thing is for damned sure and that is that the USA benefits from the international system.  Consider that Americans' indulgences resulting in a huge US deficit in goods & services which is financed by foreigners buying USD-denominated securities.  Hell yeah, the international system is propping up the USA.  If the small and weak start to look elsewhere that the USA, the US trade deficit problem will solve itself PDQ.
...

The US does benefit.  The existing framework has outlived its usefulness, and an alternative is needed, and has been for a long time.  Your statement about the US trade deficit does not comport with either statistical evidence or any extant international trade theory.


Au contraire, the USA's huge trade deficit is very clear ...

(https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/17281.jpeg)

It is simply an economic fact that a nation's capital surplus/deficit must precisely offset it's trade & services deficit/surplus.

The USA is an historical anomaly.  In the 19th century  for instance the UK was the "largest and strongest" nation in the world but it generally ran trade surpluses and was an net exporter of capital, (much of which when to the USA to finance railroads, etc.).  Can the USA continued in its privileged situation indefinitely?  It will for while but not forever
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on December 01, 2020, 07:49:50 AM

One thing is for damned sure and that is that the USA benefits from the international system.  Consider that Americans' indulgences resulting in a huge US deficit in goods & services which is financed by foreigners buying USD-denominated securities.  Hell yeah, the international system is propping up the USA.  If the small and weak start to look elsewhere that the USA, the US trade deficit problem will solve itself PDQ.


     The US buys goods from our trading partners, and they bank with us. China and other partners shift their savings from a reserve account at the Fed to a securities account. All we owe to China is the interest we offer them of our own volition. They have what we supposedly owe them, an interest bearing account at the Federal Reserve.

     The US employs a huge number of workers around the world in a very nonparasitic way. What would the Chinese workers do if we didn't buy their output?

Can the USA continued in its privileged situation indefinitely? 

     Yes, it can, but indefinite only means that goods for currency isn't inherently unstable. The world won't run out of goods to sell and despite the best efforts of economic charlatans the US will not run out of dollars. That is not a prediction that the balance won't change, only that the theory advanced here would not be the reason.

     It's pretty much the same sort of unsustainability as the national debt pseudo-crisis. There's supposedly an upper limit on nominal savings, and when we hit that "some day" dollars won't spend any more.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on December 01, 2020, 07:50:01 AM
The US does benefit.  The existing framework has outlived its usefulness, and an alternative is needed, and has been for a long time.  Your statement about the US trade deficit does not comport with either statistical evidence or any extant international trade theory.



Au contraire, the USA's huge trade deficit is very clear ...

(https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/17281.jpeg)

It is simply an economic fact that a nation's capital surplus/deficit must precisely offset it's trade & services deficit/surplus.

The USA is an historical anomaly.  In the 19th century  for instance the UK was the "largest and strongest" nation in the world but it generally ran trade surpluses and was an net exporter of capital, (much of which when to the USA to finance railroads, etc.).  Can the USA continued in its privileged situation indefinitely?  It will for while but not forever


I am well aware of US trade statistics.  I am well aware of the UK's trade history, and the fact that UK trade at the height of empire was skewed because of its reliance on exploiting colonies.  I am also aware of the trade patterns and impact on global trade of the only other historical antecedent to the US, the Mongolian Empire.  While interesting, those facts do not change the associated underlying structural facts that allow the US to continue to run immense trade deficits, which do not matter nearly as much as people assert.  Nor does trade theory change.

To be clear, I have openly advocated for a dissolution of the existing international system for years.  It cannot last forever.  What I hope to see is a dissolution of the existing system without the very frequent cause of prior dissolutions: great power war.


You're trying to talk to someone who doesn't do facts. Only alternative facts.

Incorrect.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Fëanor on December 01, 2020, 09:24:41 AM
I am well aware of US trade statistics.  I am well aware of the UK's trade history, and the fact that UK trade at the height of empire was skewed because of its reliance on exploiting colonies.  I am also aware of the trade patterns and impact on global trade of the only other historical antecedent to the US, the Mongolian Empire.  While interesting, those facts do not change the associated underlying structural facts that allow the US to continue to run immense trade deficits, which do not matter nearly as much as people assert.  Nor does trade theory change.

Well without trade deficits and corresponding capital surpluses American consumers wouldn't be nearly as well off as they are. ;)

To be clear, I have openly advocated for a dissolution of the existing international system for years.  It cannot last forever.  What I hope to see is a dissolution of the existing system without the very frequent cause of prior dissolutions: great power war.

If you're going to sweep away the existing international system you ought to know what to replace it with and how you're going to do that.

Personally I'd soon be parasitized by the USA than by China.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on December 01, 2020, 10:00:18 AM
     If the international order can't last forever what's the point of dissolution? Is it a virtue signal?


If you're going to sweep away the existing international system you ought to know what to replace it with and how you're going to do that.



     No one needs to know how the world order will evolve into something different in order for it to happen. It's a big ship with a small policy rudder to nudge it this way or that. My preferred nudge is in the direction of countries making each other great again and not everyone making themselves above average separately.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on December 01, 2020, 10:46:36 AM
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/01/trump-campaign-files-election-lawsuit-in-wisconsin-after-state-declares-biden-won-.html
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on December 01, 2020, 11:23:17 AM
Well without trade deficits and corresponding capital surpluses American consumers wouldn't be nearly as well off as they are.

That may not be the case.  And even if the US were less materially well off, so?


If you're going to sweep away the existing international system you ought to know what to replace it with and how you're going to do that.

Sure, and that would be a vastly scaled back framework in which the US relies solely on offshore balancing to prevent regional hegemony in key areas, while dissolving the outdated post-war institutions that no longer serve the same purpose they did before.  Outright dissolution may not be needed in all cases.  For instance, the UN could remain as a hollow talking shop, and its headquarters could be moved to, say, Brussels.  Or Nairobi, who cares?


Personally I'd soon be parasitized by the USA than by China.

A fairly common refrain, but a simultaneously bizarre and irrelevant one.  The US should pursue strategic security and financial policies focused on US interest above all else.  If small regional wars pop up here and there, that's fine.  The US does not need to be directly involved.  Or, alternatively, it may even make sense for the US to pursue destabilization policies in some instances.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 01, 2020, 11:27:10 AM
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/01/trump-campaign-files-election-lawsuit-in-wisconsin-after-state-declares-biden-won-.html
Still shaking my head in disbelief at this guy....  :( ??? ::)  The waste of time, money and the courts' time(s)....$3 million; money that could have gone to feeding people?

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on December 01, 2020, 11:48:43 AM
OTOH,

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/01/doj-has-not-found-fraud-that-would-reverse-biden-win-over-trump-barr-says-.html

That's a surprise. Really. There's no bigger Cheeto puppet than Barr.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on December 01, 2020, 11:52:04 AM

     DOJ has not found fraud that would reverse Biden win over Trump, Attorney General William Barr says (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/01/doj-has-not-found-fraud-that-would-reverse-biden-win-over-trump-barr-says-.html)



The US should pursue strategic security and financial policies focused on US interest above all else. 

     We do. Our interests are defended above all else by our alliances or we wouldn't have them. We can nudge them in a direction that we deem more favorable without defining interests so narrowly that we give up the advantages we get from positive sum arrangements. The world order doesn't have to be collapsed into wasteful chaos any more than the minimum that occurs whether we like it or not. Of course my nudge is for less "war of all against all" because I love peace almost as much as I love freedom and prosperity. I have to make compromises on all these wants, an OK thing.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on December 01, 2020, 12:13:47 PM
OTOH,

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/01/doj-has-not-found-fraud-that-would-reverse-biden-win-over-trump-barr-says-.html

That's a surprise. Really. There's no bigger Cheeto puppet than Barr.

     Trump's election lawyers have responded to Barr's statement by saying he hasn't investigated the election, which is true. The AG is aware of efforts to create cases out of nothing and has nothing to add to what the judges have said about the nonsense presented to them.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on December 01, 2020, 12:15:23 PM

     Barr is at the WH now. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/evil.gif)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on December 01, 2020, 12:38:24 PM

     Another Official Is Ousted From the Pentagon (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/01/us/politics/pentagon-firing.html?action=click&module=RelatedLinks&pgtype=Article)

The ouster of the official, Christopher P. Maier, the head of the Pentagon’s Defeat ISIS Task Force since March 2017, came just three weeks after President Trump fired Defense Secretary Mark T. Esper and three other Pentagon officials, and replaced them with loyalists.

Mr. Maier’s team served as a clearinghouse for the government’s counterterrorism operations and policies. It was in the midst of answering dozens of questions from the incoming Biden team about the status of terrorist threats, relations with allies and counterterrorism missions when his team was disbanded. Now team members will be scattered across the vast Pentagon bureaucracy or returned to their home agencies.

Whether deliberate or not, the move by the newly promoted Pentagon leadership to eliminate that central hub will almost certainly slow the flow of counterterrorism information to Biden transition aides in the coming weeks, several officials said.


     If they can't stop the Biden transition they can at least cripple the Pentagon's counterterrorism shop. Good job.

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 01, 2020, 01:52:11 PM
OTOH,

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/01/doj-has-not-found-fraud-that-would-reverse-biden-win-over-trump-barr-says-.html

That's a surprise. Really. There's no bigger Cheeto puppet than Barr.
Lifting my jaw off of the floor now....
     Trump's election lawyers have responded to Barr's statement by saying he hasn't investigated the election, which is true. The AG is aware of efforts to create cases out of nothing and has nothing to add to what the judges have said about the nonsense presented to them.
Why waste the time and expend the effort?
     Another Official Is Ousted From the Pentagon (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/01/us/politics/pentagon-firing.html?action=click&module=RelatedLinks&pgtype=Article)

The ouster of the official, Christopher P. Maier, the head of the Pentagon’s Defeat ISIS Task Force since March 2017, came just three weeks after President Trump fired Defense Secretary Mark T. Esper and three other Pentagon officials, and replaced them with loyalists.

Mr. Maier’s team served as a clearinghouse for the government’s counterterrorism operations and policies. It was in the midst of answering dozens of questions from the incoming Biden team about the status of terrorist threats, relations with allies and counterterrorism missions when his team was disbanded. Now team members will be scattered across the vast Pentagon bureaucracy or returned to their home agencies.

Whether deliberate or not, the move by the newly promoted Pentagon leadership to eliminate that central hub will almost certainly slow the flow of counterterrorism information to Biden transition aides in the coming weeks, several officials said.


     If they can't stop the Biden transition they can at least cripple the Pentagon's counterterrorism shop. Good job.


Oh, God help us!!!

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on December 01, 2020, 02:15:38 PM
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-12-01/pardoning-giuliani-would-put-trump-in-legal-jeopardy

This is funny. According to the NYT, the possibility of Cheeto Mussolini pardoning Ghouliani has been bandied about. Could get interesting.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/12/01/us/joe-biden-trump#giuliani-is-said-to-have-discussed-a-possible-pardon-with-trump
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 01, 2020, 02:26:56 PM
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-12-01/pardoning-giuliani-would-put-trump-in-legal-jeopardy

This is funny. According to the NYT, the possibility of Cheeto Mussolini pardoning Ghouliani has been bandied about. Could get interesting.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/12/01/us/joe-biden-trump#giuliani-is-said-to-have-discussed-a-possible-pardon-with-trump
Interesting!  I was able to read the article here (for free):  https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/pardoning-giuliani-would-put-trump-in-legal-jeopardy/ar-BB1bxcCg

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on December 01, 2020, 04:22:22 PM

     Justice Department investigating potential presidential pardon bribery scheme, court records reveal (https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/01/politics/presidential-pardon-justice-department/index.html)

"The political strategy to obtain a presidential pardon was 'parallel' to and distinct from [redacted]'s role as an attorney-advocate for [redacted name]," Howell wrote in her court order.

     No, I don't see any clues to the identity of these redacts.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on December 01, 2020, 04:53:56 PM
     Justice Department investigating potential presidential pardon bribery scheme, court records reveal (https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/01/politics/presidential-pardon-justice-department/index.html)

"The political strategy to obtain a presidential pardon was 'parallel' to and distinct from [redacted]'s role as an attorney-advocate for [redacted name]," Howell wrote in her court order.

     No, I don't see any clues to the identity of these redacts.
:laugh:
Yeah, they really obscured the identity!
Maybe it'll cause another meltdown!
(https://www.nydailynews.com/resizer/0t61EAT5eza-wPloDc4-hQD3qdA=/800x533/top/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/tronc/QBF2OUH75VGUHA3QMZF7NG6EKE.jpg)

But it's the DOJ, run by Cheeto Über-toady Barr. How far do you think the investigation will go?  :laugh:

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-55153918
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-01/trump-accused-by-gop-official-of-inspiring-threats-of-violence

Georgia’s Republican voting system manager denounced President Donald Trump and the state’s two Republican U.S. senators for not condemning, and even encouraging through silence, the threats of violence being made against election workers and the state’s top elections official.

His voice shaking with anger, the normally even-keeled Gabriel Sterling said his boss, Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger, a Republican, had received death threats, has had Trump supporters driving caravans around his house and entering his property and that “his wife of 40 years” has been getting threats over her mobile phone.

“It has to stop,” he added.

Sterling said he decided to speak out after he learned about a series of threats against a 20-year-old contractor -- including photos of a noose with his name on it -- in response to a video of him working with a piece of election equipment. The video has been widely circulated this week by Trump backers as proof of fraud, which it’s not, Sterling said.

“This kid took a job. He just took a job,” Sterling said during a news conference on Tuesday in Atlanta to provide an update on the progress of a recount requested by Trump. “I can’t begin to explain the level of anger I have right now over this. And every American, every Georgian, Republican and Democrat alike, should have that same level of anger.”
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: SimonNZ on December 01, 2020, 08:03:10 PM
I could link to the Washington Post article they quote or the Politico article they quote, but this deserves to be delivered Wonkette style:

and quoting (almost) in full:

Republican Senators Say 'Mean Tweets' Disqualify Biden Nominees. Make Your Own Joke, We're Fresh Out. (https://www.wonkette.com/republican-senators-say-mean-tweets-disqualify-biden-nominees-make-your-own-joke-were-fresh-out)

"The Republicans don't want to confirm "partisan" nominees to positions in the Biden administration? Really? REALLY?

Republicans are currently having a tantrum over the news that President-elect Joe Biden is nominating Neera Tanden to head the Office of Management and Budget because she said mean stuff about them on Twitter.

"I think, in light of her combative and insulting comments about many members of the Senate, mainly on our side of the aisle, that it creates certainly a problematic path," Texas Sen. John Cornyn said, calling Tanden "radioactive" and Biden's "worst nominee so far." After four years of pretending not to see the president's latest incendiary tweets, Republicans sat down with Hooked on Phonics over the holiday weekend and are suddenly able to read. Hosanna! And boy howdy are they offended.

"She's been pretty partisan in some of her previous positions. And in many cases, with respect to Republican senators who would have to vote on her potential nomination," South Dakota's John Thune told Politico, while Ohio's Rob Portman, who once headed the OMB himself, tut-tutted, "Of all the jobs, that's one where I think you would need to be careful not to have someone who's overtly partisan."

Russ Vought, the current head of OMB, was confirmed by a Republican Senate despite having said in 2016 that "Muslims do not simply have a deficient theology. They do not know God because they have rejected Jesus Christ his Son, and they stand condemned."

He was preceded in the position by Mick Mulvaney, a founding member of the Freedom Caucus. The same Mick Mulvaney who once described Social Security as a Ponzi scheme. The same Mick Mulvaney who accused Planned Parenthood of "trafficking in pieces of dead children." The same Mick Mulvaney who came before the American people and announced that the government had looked and looked, and the only place they could find to host the G-7 meeting was at Trump's Doral hotel. The same Mick Mulvaney who used his position to put a hold on congressionally allocated defense funds for Ukraine — you may remember something about that? — because the president was trying to squeeze that country into investigating Joe Biden.

And while we're on the subject of partisan nominees, let's talk about John Ratcliffe, the current Director of National Intelligence. Ratcliffe, who used his position on the House Intelligence Committee to run interference for Trump during the impeachment, accused Democrats of fabricating evidence in the Russia investigation, and publicly mischaracterized former DOJ employee Lisa Page's testimony about the Hillary Clinton email investigation. Ratcliffe's first nomination to DNI was scuttled after it emerged that he'd lied on his resume. The Senate only confirmed him, despite his lack of legally mandated qualifications, because otherwise Trump was going to keep that nasty Twitter troll Ric Grenell in the position indefinitely.

Grenell, perhaps the least diplomatic person alive, was confirmed 56-41 as ambassador to Germany, where he immediately set about offending one of our staunchest allies.

Mike Pompeo, who led the Benghazi hearings to prove that Hillary Clinton was somehow responsible for an attack on an embassy halfway around the world, sailed through his confirmation to head the CIA and later as secretary of State. The same Republican Senate that sat on Merrick Garland's nomination for a year was happy to bless the elevation of various purse designers, coal magnates, dermatologists, and rich donors to represent our country abroad.

Leave aside the fact that these assholes had zero problem with Trump withholding his tax returns. Forget even that the president's son-in-law, whose portfolio includes "everything," had such skeevy secrets he couldn't get a security clearance without a shove from the president.

We've got a coal lobbyist running the EPA, an oil lobbyist as Interior secretary, a corporate lobbyist running the Department of Labor, a Transportation secretary whose family runs a shipping company, a lawyer for the steel industry as the US Trade Representative, a Commerce secretary who still hasn't managed to divest himself of all his various business interests, an Energy secretary who represented an automobile trade association, and we'd still have a former Raytheon lobbyist at Defense if Trump could manage to keep help for more than five minutes.

And while we're on the topic, Republicans didn't give a rat's ass if Trump used "acting" staffers to indefinitely evade the Senate's right to vote on nominees to top jobs.

It doesn't make a damn bit of difference who Biden nominates. The GOP is already announcing its plans to obstruct the incoming administration at every turn — albeit usually less idiotically than Josh Hawley.

Senate Republicans manifestly do not care about conflicts of interest or partisanship or actual qualifications for the job. Neera Tanden is a qualified labor economist who called them names, and now they're going to sulk and play the victim. Third verse, same as the first."
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 01, 2020, 08:09:52 PM
Someone on Twitter speculated, if Trump pardons the turkey, is he only pardoning the white meat?
And I thought, well, what did the dark meat ever do for HIM?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on December 01, 2020, 08:16:06 PM
I could link to the Washington Post article they quote or the Politico article they quote, but this deserves to be delivered Wonkette style:

and quoting (almost) in full:

Republican Senators Say 'Mean Tweets' Disqualify Biden Nominees. Make Your Own Joke, We're Fresh Out. (https://www.wonkette.com/republican-senators-say-mean-tweets-disqualify-biden-nominees-make-your-own-joke-were-fresh-out)

"The Republicans don't want to confirm "partisan" nominees to positions in the Biden administration? Really? REALLY?

Republicans are currently having a tantrum over the news that President-elect Joe Biden is nominating Neera Tanden to head the Office of Management and Budget because she said mean stuff about them on Twitter.

"I think, in light of her combative and insulting comments about many members of the Senate, mainly on our side of the aisle, that it creates certainly a problematic path," Texas Sen. John Cornyn said, calling Tanden "radioactive" and Biden's "worst nominee so far." After four years of pretending not to see the president's latest incendiary tweets, Republicans sat down with Hooked on Phonics over the holiday weekend and are suddenly able to read. Hosanna! And boy howdy are they offended.

"She's been pretty partisan in some of her previous positions. And in many cases, with respect to Republican senators who would have to vote on her potential nomination," South Dakota's John Thune told Politico, while Ohio's Rob Portman, who once headed the OMB himself, tut-tutted, "Of all the jobs, that's one where I think you would need to be careful not to have someone who's overtly partisan."

Russ Vought, the current head of OMB, was confirmed by a Republican Senate despite having said in 2016 that "Muslims do not simply have a deficient theology. They do not know God because they have rejected Jesus Christ his Son, and they stand condemned."

He was preceded in the position by Mick Mulvaney, a founding member of the Freedom Caucus. The same Mick Mulvaney who once described Social Security as a Ponzi scheme. The same Mick Mulvaney who accused Planned Parenthood of "trafficking in pieces of dead children." The same Mick Mulvaney who came before the American people and announced that the government had looked and looked, and the only place they could find to host the G-7 meeting was at Trump's Doral hotel. The same Mick Mulvaney who used his position to put a hold on congressionally allocated defense funds for Ukraine — you may remember something about that? — because the president was trying to squeeze that country into investigating Joe Biden.

And while we're on the subject of partisan nominees, let's talk about John Ratcliffe, the current Director of National Intelligence. Ratcliffe, who used his position on the House Intelligence Committee to run interference for Trump during the impeachment, accused Democrats of fabricating evidence in the Russia investigation, and publicly mischaracterized former DOJ employee Lisa Page's testimony about the Hillary Clinton email investigation. Ratcliffe's first nomination to DNI was scuttled after it emerged that he'd lied on his resume. The Senate only confirmed him, despite his lack of legally mandated qualifications, because otherwise Trump was going to keep that nasty Twitter troll Ric Grenell in the position indefinitely.

Grenell, perhaps the least diplomatic person alive, was confirmed 56-41 as ambassador to Germany, where he immediately set about offending one of our staunchest allies.

Mike Pompeo, who led the Benghazi hearings to prove that Hillary Clinton was somehow responsible for an attack on an embassy halfway around the world, sailed through his confirmation to head the CIA and later as secretary of State. The same Republican Senate that sat on Merrick Garland's nomination for a year was happy to bless the elevation of various purse designers, coal magnates, dermatologists, and rich donors to represent our country abroad.

Leave aside the fact that these assholes had zero problem with Trump withholding his tax returns. Forget even that the president's son-in-law, whose portfolio includes "everything," had such skeevy secrets he couldn't get a security clearance without a shove from the president.

We've got a coal lobbyist running the EPA, an oil lobbyist as Interior secretary, a corporate lobbyist running the Department of Labor, a Transportation secretary whose family runs a shipping company, a lawyer for the steel industry as the US Trade Representative, a Commerce secretary who still hasn't managed to divest himself of all his various business interests, an Energy secretary who represented an automobile trade association, and we'd still have a former Raytheon lobbyist at Defense if Trump could manage to keep help for more than five minutes.

And while we're on the topic, Republicans didn't give a rat's ass if Trump used "acting" staffers to indefinitely evade the Senate's right to vote on nominees to top jobs.

It doesn't make a damn bit of difference who Biden nominates. The GOP is already announcing its plans to obstruct the incoming administration at every turn — albeit usually less idiotically than Josh Hawley.

Senate Republicans manifestly do not care about conflicts of interest or partisanship or actual qualifications for the job. Neera Tanden is a qualified labor economist who called them names, and now they're going to sulk and play the victim. Third verse, same as the first."

The fish rots from the head. Who makes/shares more mean Tweets than Cheeto Mussolini?

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/01/trump-considers-2024-campaign-kickoff-on-inauguration-day.html
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on December 02, 2020, 06:05:44 AM
A Teeny-Tiny Debt Sale Breathes Life Into Venezuela’s Markets (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-02/a-teeny-tiny-debt-sale-breathes-life-into-venezuela-s-markets)

Progress?

OK, technically, this is about the Venezuelan economy and markets, but now gringo currency is all official like down there.  Why, I wonder, were the securities not issued in Euros? 
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on December 02, 2020, 10:17:25 AM

     Barr is still with us, so everyone can relax for the time being. That has me wondering if there was more to the meeting than Trump raging at his traitorous AG. Might Barr have had his own message to deliver? Who says he's not the Keeper of Secrets? (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/akyhne/blank.gif)
     
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on December 02, 2020, 11:06:58 AM
     Barr is still with us, so everyone can relax for the time being. That has me wondering if there was more to the meeting than Trump raging at his traitorous AG. Might Barr have had his own message to deliver? Who says he's not the Keeper of Secrets? (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/akyhne/blank.gif)
   

It's surely folly to micro-analyze the statements of massive liars, but FWIW (which is to say, squat):

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/02/white-house-refuses-to-say-trump-has-faith-in-william-barr.html

When she was asked if Trump has spoken to Barr since his interview with the AP, McEnany said, “I’m not aware if they’ve spoken.”

“I know the attorney general was here yesterday for a pre-planned meeting with the chief of staff [Mark Meadows] and they discussed an array of issues but i’m not aware if the president has spoken to him directly,” McEnany said.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: BasilValentine on December 02, 2020, 11:47:30 AM
A Teeny-Tiny Debt Sale Breathes Life Into Venezuela’s Markets (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-02/a-teeny-tiny-debt-sale-breathes-life-into-venezuela-s-markets)

Progress?

OK, technically, this is about the Venezuelan economy and markets, but now gringo currency is all official like down there.  Why, I wonder, were the securities not issued in Euros?

Could it have to do with what was in use already in the black market?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on December 02, 2020, 11:49:21 AM
Could it have to do with what was in use already in the black market?

I do not know.  Do you know?  If so, how?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on December 02, 2020, 12:32:01 PM
Could it have to do with what was in use already in the black market?

     You're just wondering.

     I know the article says this:

The exchange in recent years has served mostly as a vehicle for Venezuelans to buy securities they hoped would protect against the almost daily depreciation in the local currency amid a staggering economic collapse.

     
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on December 03, 2020, 09:36:35 AM

     What's next for the Trump cult?

     (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/df/Marshall_Applewhite.jpg)

     George Conway tweets helpfully:

it's as though he's in the bunker, his days numbered, directing ministers to destroy bridges and factories, and ordering generals to attack with armies that no longer exist

     I know it looks like that. Money is on his mind, though, hundreds of millions that will end up being used to bail out the debt-ridden Trump empire and pay for acres of expensive lawyering.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: MusicTurner on December 03, 2020, 10:38:03 AM
"... a patriotic pop-up book, now a collector's item ..."

https://twitter.com/trump_see/status/1334563474773602315

Psalm 91 ("Pslam 91"):
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2091&version=NIV
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: SimonNZ on December 03, 2020, 02:23:32 PM
Not The Onion:

Roger Stone Says North Korean Boats Delivered Ballots Through Maine Harbor As Trump Boosts Fraud Claims (https://www.newsweek.com/roger-stone-says-north-korean-boats-delivered-ballots-through-maine-harbor-trump-boosts-fraud-1551937)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 03, 2020, 02:49:32 PM
Not The Onion:

Roger Stone Says North Korean Boats Delivered Ballots Through Maine Harbor As Trump Boosts Fraud Claims (https://www.newsweek.com/roger-stone-says-north-korean-boats-delivered-ballots-through-maine-harbor-trump-boosts-fraud-1551937)


On one hand, this us idiocy which doesn't pass the sniff test.
On t'other, 46.9% of the US electorate lap up this whacko shite.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: SimonNZ on December 03, 2020, 02:51:46 PM
And on the third hand, let me show you this globe, Roger, indicating the US ports closest to North Korea...
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 03, 2020, 02:53:34 PM
Nope, absolutely no sign of the lame needle-pecker orange man trying to steal the election here:

Wisconsin Supreme Court declines to hear Trump campaign challenge to election results (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/wisconsin-supreme-court-trump-lawsuit/2020/12/03/ee481942-3596-11eb-a997-1f4c53d2a747_story.html)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 03, 2020, 02:54:32 PM
And on the third hand, let me show you this globe, Roger, indicating the US ports closest to North Korea...

He knows the geographical literacy of his target audience ....
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: BasilValentine on December 03, 2020, 03:15:05 PM
And on the third hand, let me show you this globe, Roger, indicating the US ports closest to North Korea...

Globe? You think they're falling for that spherical earth BS? Not a chance.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 03, 2020, 03:26:58 PM
Globe? You think they're falling for that spherical earth BS? Not a chance.

(* chortle *)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on December 03, 2020, 04:00:35 PM

On one hand, this us idiocy which doesn't pass the sniff test.
On t'other, 46.9% of the US electorate lap up this whacko shite.

How many of the above (emphasis added) lappers up of whacko shite could locate North Korea on a map?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on December 03, 2020, 04:06:18 PM
I should stay away from this thread, but Giuliani farting is too funny to ignore.  :laugh:

https://www.youtube.com/v/f6l36qCnQ5E

Empire in decline...
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on December 03, 2020, 04:10:10 PM
I should stay way from this thread, but Giuliani farting is too funny to ignore.  :laugh:

Empire in decline...

Thanks for posting this! I'll refrain from further comment...
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on December 03, 2020, 04:20:57 PM
Thanks for posting this!

You're welcome!  0:)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on December 04, 2020, 08:18:40 AM
That whole hearing was just a bizarre Jerry Springer-like spectacle, with this whacky woman talking over everybody all the time, and people applauding partisan points. A classic.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on December 04, 2020, 09:46:56 AM
That whole hearing was just a bizarre Jerry Springer-like spectacle, with this whacky woman talking over everybody all the time, and people applauding partisan points. A classic.

     The exchange between SuperWitness and a perplexed Repub over the poll book will go down in history as far down as you can get.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on December 04, 2020, 10:42:59 AM
     The exchange between SuperWitness and a perplexed Repub over the poll book will go down in history as far down as you can get.

Still 45 days to go, so who knows?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on December 04, 2020, 10:49:26 AM
I predicted a year ago that 2020 will be completely insane in the US politics and it surely has been that, but for completely different way than what I predicted.  We did not get the total meltdown of the establishment because of Bernie Sanders' victory in the election, but we certainly get something else! The "clown coup" of the last month alone has been overhelming in it's lunacy.

Nearly half of Americans have lost their mind and are completely detached from reality. I'm not sure what at this point keeps the US from collapsing as a society. Perhaps the other half of Americans still having some touch to reality? Anyway it's a scary show. It is possible the US becomes a Russia-like totalitarian country in my lifetime and that is a scary thought! We can only hope millions of Americans will abandon the Trump cult and come to their senses, back to the real World with real facts, reason and logic.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on December 04, 2020, 10:52:04 AM
Still 45 days to go, so who knows?

ALL THE CHINESE PEOPLE LOOK THE SAME!!! >:D

January 20 can't come soon enough.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on December 04, 2020, 11:45:21 AM
ALL THE CHINESE PEOPLE LOOK THE SAME!!! >:D

January 20 can't come soon enough.

And mind you, the person who said this, prefaced it with saying that people told her all Indians (like her) looked the same. So it was a sort of stereotype double whammy.

Jan 20 won't change anything about these attitudes. Counter to what would seem logical, racism has gone up immensily since Obama won the presidency.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: MusicTurner on December 04, 2020, 12:34:37 PM
An offer from Kellyanne Conway:
"... it looks like Joe Biden and Kamala Harris will prevail (...) If there’s anything I can ever do to help … they can count on me.
https://19thnews.org/2020/12/kellyanne-conway-acknowledges-it-looks-like-joe-biden-and-kamala-harris-will-prevail/

Michael Cohen: #45 just keeps going for the money; I voted Biden.
https://www.rawstory.com/2020/12/michael-cohen-reveals-the-endgame-of-trumps-post-election-hysterics-he-cant-go-back-to-real-estate/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on December 04, 2020, 12:36:36 PM
Jan 20 won't change anything about these attitudes.

Unfortunately. You are right about that, but Jan. 20 at least restores some sanity to the White House. That's how low the par for the leaders of countries are these days. Sane person => GREAT!  :-\
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on December 04, 2020, 12:57:00 PM
Today's funny item from Insane Clown Posse redux:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/04/sidney-powell-amends-court-filing-that-said-georgia-votes-were-flipped-to-trump.html

This nutjob lawyer makes Ghouliani look sane.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on December 04, 2020, 01:23:13 PM
     The exchange between SuperWitness and a perplexed Repub over the poll book will go down in history as far down as you can get.

And yet, if we look at how things have been going in the GOP this century, we can expect Blunt Melissa to be a national candidate in 2024.

And people will love her.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: SimonNZ on December 04, 2020, 01:54:42 PM
Who is "Blunt Melissa"?

in attempting to google that I stumble across this from the Galveston County Daily News::

Tucker Carlson should be the GOP's choice for 2024 (https://www.galvnews.com/opinion/guest_columns/article_2ba8aea0-4763-57e6-940c-8db4e36584e9.html)


edit: listening to the latest episode of The New Abnormal podcast and guessing it must be this Melissa Carone they're mocking
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: MusicTurner on December 04, 2020, 02:01:40 PM
........... it turns out that Melissa just got off probation for computer-related crimes:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/giuliani-michigan-carone-computer-crime-b1766472.html


The truck driver witness makes money on ghost videos, claims ghosts follow his family:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-fraud-witness-also-believes-ghosts-are-haunting-his-family?source=twitter&via=desktop
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on December 04, 2020, 02:15:06 PM
And yet, if we look at how things have been going in the GOP this century, we can expect Blunt Melissa to be a national candidate in 2024.

And people will love her.

     Rudy was the sober one. Imagine that.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on December 04, 2020, 02:19:52 PM
https://news.yahoo.com/trumps-lawyer-jenna-ellis-elite-195738771.html

How Is Trump's Lawyer Jenna Ellis 'Elite Strike Force' Material?
...
Ellis’ work appears to largely be in a public relations capacity. The Trump campaign and its supporters have so far filed about 50 election-related lawsuits. She has not signed her name or appeared in court to argue a single one.

In a written statement responding to questions about her record, Ellis described herself as “a highly experienced and highly qualified attorney and expert in my field.” Any assertions to the contrary “cast me in a false light,” she said. The Trump campaign provided the name of one federal case in which it said Ellis had participated, in 2012, when she was a year out of law school. But her name is not among the lawyers listed in the decision, and the case was not heard in a regular federal court, but rather in an administrative tribunal.

...


Well, she doesn't fart on video and her hair dye doesn't melt.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: T. D. on December 04, 2020, 02:24:22 PM
https://news.yahoo.com/republican-lawmaker-likens-trump-votefraud-crusade-to-the-search-for-bigfoot-130019525.html
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 04, 2020, 04:07:51 PM
........... it turns out that Melissa just got off probation for computer-related crimes:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/giuliani-michigan-carone-computer-crime-b1766472.html
I didn't see her testimony, but looking at the article, I'm a bit confused:

"According to the Mail, Ms Carone, 33, was sentenced last September to 12 months of probation for an as-yet-unreported incident in 2018, which court documents refer to as 'disorderly circumstances warranting alarm” and “computers-using to commit a crime.'”

I guess that I would have thought that if she had already been put on probation, that the incident would have been on the record (unless possibly due to age?)?

PD

p.s.  I just heard on one program this:  "In 2018, Carone was charged with obscenity for allegedly emailing sexually explicit videos to her boyfriend's ex. She pleaded guilty to a lesser charge, which was dismissed after she served probation."  The quote is from MSN news.  I just heard it on another program.

PD
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Daverz on December 04, 2020, 05:26:25 PM
     Rudy was the sober one. Imagine that.

Sober?  No, I suspect Rudy took the lady out for a friendly drink or two ... or three ... before the session, and it did not occur to him what effect such an unexceptional amount of alcohol -- for Rudy -- might have on a normal person.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on December 04, 2020, 05:51:09 PM
The truck driver witness makes money on ghost videos, claims ghosts follow his family:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-fraud-witness-also-believes-ghosts-are-haunting-his-family?source=twitter&via=desktop

What if Biden got paranormal votes from ghosts? Dead people voted they say...  :P
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on December 05, 2020, 01:43:15 AM
........... it turns out that Melissa just got off probation for computer-related crimes:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/giuliani-michigan-carone-computer-crime-b1766472.html


In Florida there has been a huge effort to give felons the right to vote. So in itself a felony should not disqualify a person from testifying. However, one could not help but notice that MI Republicans rejected the proposal to have Mellissa and her fellow witnesses testify under oath, so as not to to hinder the bullshit and fart festival that ensued.

It's been clear for a while that Trump and Giuliani are scraping the bottom of the barrel now.

It's not nice to say so, perhaps, but Jenna Ellis' most conspicuous qualifications are, not necessarily in that order, that she looks good on camera (do note the liberal doses of shadow under her cheek bones for a somewhat sexier look) and is well in the religious corner (like so many late stage Trump cronies). Like so many of these people Trump spotted her on tv.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Herman on December 05, 2020, 02:20:31 AM
Slate's Lili Loofburow has a nice analysis about the all-American type of crank Mellissa C. embodies, and why it's wrong to dismiss them as crazy. (I couldn't help but admire the way Kimmel spotted Mellissa's interesting phonetics in e.g. "threat ened", though.)

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/12/melissa-carone-michigan-testimony-not-funny.html

"Cranks matter now. They are being given seats at the table, not just as witnesses but as officials. The president is a crank. So is his team, which is trying to overthrow the results of the election. Sidney Powell is a crank. Rudy Giuliani is a crank. QAnon cranks have been elected to Congress. If Donald Trump has proven anything, it’s that a massive number of Americans don’t have a “bridge too far” when it comes to crankish excesses we still somehow think the public will find disqualifying."
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: MusicTurner on December 05, 2020, 03:10:45 AM
Well, we can't exactly build a wall to the US over here, but one of the options is the talk & vague progressions in making the largely free-wheelin' social media more responsible for their content. EU seems to be gradually moving towards it. It's a complicated question, but IMO the social media are comparable to traditional/printed media & they certainly ought to have - and show - more responsibility in their actions.

Newsmax and OANN are likely to become the upcoming, fringe media sources, and they'll nourish division and conspiracy theories further, now that Fox News has retreated somewhat - at least for a while. Add to this 'DeepFake' possibilities in the new stories, which will contribute further to confusion in obtaining reliable information in politics and current events, and you'll have a rather problematic cocktail, for everyone, in the future.

One could also hope that the social media use, still in its early phase, will mature somewhat, rather than degenerate - and that a better educational level regarding them will follow as well, in the long run. But it's all intertwined with the general democratic sense, and the sense of civic responsibility, versus the degree of social and economical divisions within society.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on December 05, 2020, 05:44:13 AM
Nearly half of Americans have lost their mind and are completely detached from reality.

A lot of non-Americans have as well.

I'm not sure what at this point keeps the US from collapsing as a society.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: steve ridgway on December 05, 2020, 08:10:39 AM
Well a man called Adolf Hitler Uunona has been elected as a local councillor for Namibia's governing Swapo party. ???

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/624/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2020/12/3/88a7530f-5d3a-4f55-83e1-b3032a55922d.jpg)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on December 05, 2020, 08:12:19 AM
Well a man called Adolf Hitler Uunona has been elected as a local councillor for Namibia's governing Swapo party. ???

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/624/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2020/12/3/88a7530f-5d3a-4f55-83e1-b3032a55922d.jpg)

Old news: https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,6347.msg1335376.html#msg1335376
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on December 05, 2020, 08:15:16 AM
Post-election political estrangement has landed U.S. at ‘tipping point,’ warns world’s biggest hedge-fund manager (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-u-s-is-at-a-tipping-point-that-could-lead-to-civil-warn-warns-the-worlds-biggest-hedge-fund-manager-11606922363)

Old Ray must be engineering a dollar play.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on December 05, 2020, 08:17:07 AM
Well a man called Adolf Hitler Uunona has been elected as a local councillor for Namibia's governing Swapo party. ???

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/624/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2020/12/3/88a7530f-5d3a-4f55-83e1-b3032a55922d.jpg)

And what's got it to do with USA politics, I wonder.  ???
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on December 05, 2020, 08:17:40 AM
And what's got it to do with USA politics, I wonder.  ???

The internet.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: steve ridgway on December 05, 2020, 08:23:14 AM
And what's got it to do with USA politics, I wonder.  ???

Todd’s comment about non-Americans losing their minds too. I was just thinking what fun could be had if some party in America could falsify his birth records and run him for president. >:D
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on December 05, 2020, 08:30:24 AM
Something that may be of help to some people: Reading Too Much Political News Is Bad for Your Well-Being (https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2020/10/reading-too-much-political-news-bad-happiness/616651/)

It's from The Atlantic, so it's legit, even if it was pre-election.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: steve ridgway on December 05, 2020, 08:36:42 AM
Something that may be of help to some people: Reading Too Much Political News Is Bad for Your Well-Being (https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2020/10/reading-too-much-political-news-bad-happiness/616651/)

Brilliant - I have a signature again. ;D
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on December 05, 2020, 08:41:23 AM
Todd’s comment about non-Americans losing their minds too.

I see, thanks for clarifying.  :)

Well, beside the name there is another striking similarity: SWAPO is a leftist party and so was the NSDAP, so I'd say there is very serious reason for the whole Africa to be deeply concerned about it.  ;D

Seriously now, the chap might be a jolly good fellow who really cares about his community and does his best to improve it in every possible way (that's  one of the typical reasons why local councilors get elected); alternately, he might be just a faithful, and obedient rank-and-file of the ruling party (that's another typical reason why local councilors get elected). Either way, he can't be blamed for the name his parents gave him. Besides, Mussolini's anarchist father named him after Benito Suarez.  :D

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on December 05, 2020, 08:44:19 AM
Reading Too Much Political News Is Bad for Your Well-Being

Of course it is. We have a conspicuous example right here on GMG.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Todd on December 05, 2020, 08:47:25 AM
Of course it is. We have a conspicuous examples right here on GMG.


Edited.

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: steve ridgway on December 05, 2020, 08:54:45 AM
Seriously now, the chap might be a jolly good fellow who really cares about his community and does his best to improve it in every possible way (that's  one of the typical reasons why local councilors get elected); alternately, he might be just a faithful, and obedient rank-and-file of the ruling party (that's another typical reason why local councilors get elected). Either way, he can't be blamed for the name his parents gave him.

Yes, it could be a name given out of innocent backwater ignorance. As the BBC say,

Namibia is a former German colony and there are still reminders of that time in some placenames. There is also a small German-speaking minority.

"My father named me after this man. He probably didn't understand what Adolf Hitler stood for," Mr Uunona told Bild.

"It was a very normal name for me as a child. It was not until I was growing up that I realised that this man wanted to subjugate the whole world. I have nothing to do with any of these things.”
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: steve ridgway on December 05, 2020, 08:56:54 AM
Which reminds me of my father’s surprise when my brother’s Hungarian wife told him Atilla was a very popular name over there. :o
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on December 05, 2020, 09:02:31 AM
"My father named me after this man. He probably didn't understand what Adolf Hitler stood for," Mr Uunona told Bild.

"It was a very normal name for me as a child. It was not until I was growing up that I realised that this man wanted to subjugate the whole world. I have nothing to do with any of these things.”[/i]

He sounds okay to me.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on December 05, 2020, 09:08:45 AM
Which reminds me of my father’s surprise when my brother’s Hungarian wife told him Atilla was a very popular name over there. :o

And of course the irony for both Hungarians and Englishmen is that Attila is a Germanic name meaning "little father" which stems from atta (father) to which the diminutive suffix -ila was attached. Exactly the same as Wulfila, ie "little wolf". 

:D



Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: steve ridgway on December 05, 2020, 09:09:47 AM
He sounds okay to me.

There are actually some descendants of Hitler living in.... the USA. ::)

https://nypost.com/2018/10/08/some-of-hitlers-last-relatives-are-living-secret-lives-on-long-island/ (https://nypost.com/2018/10/08/some-of-hitlers-last-relatives-are-living-secret-lives-on-long-island/)

I also found a Hitler in the corporate email address book of a previous employer - again in the USA. ;)
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: steve ridgway on December 05, 2020, 09:11:06 AM
And of course the irony for both Hungarians and Englishmen is that Attila is a Germanic name meaning "little father" which stems from atta (father) to which the diminutive suffix -ila was attached. Exactly the same as Wulfila, ie "little wolf".

Ah right, we English people would never have known about that. :-[
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on December 05, 2020, 09:16:40 AM
Ah right, we English people would never have known about that. :-[

I didn't mean to be pedantic or offensive. If I sounded like that I apologize.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on December 05, 2020, 09:21:30 AM
More Hitler, please. 

Anyone remember the (in)famous Carlos the Jackal? He was born Ilyich Sanchez and had two brothers: Vladimir Sanchez and Lenin Sanchez.

Truly politics is bad for people's mental health. Music, on the other hand, produces Mozart Guarneri and his brothers Verdi Guarneri and Rossini Guarneri.  :D
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on December 05, 2020, 09:33:54 AM
Yes, it could be a name given out of innocent backwater ignorance. As the BBC say,

Namibia is a former German colony and there are still reminders of that time in some placenames. There is also a small German-speaking minority.

"My father named me after this man. He probably didn't understand what Adolf Hitler stood for," Mr Uunona told Bild.

"It was a very normal name for me as a child. It was not until I was growing up that I realised that this man wanted to subjugate the whole world. I have nothing to do with any of these things.”


My paternal grandfather was an army officer and got a medal of honour from Hitler.  :P My name is the same as my grandfather's name. My name is extremely rare. Only I and my grandfather had it. I never met him, because he passed away very young over a decade before I was born.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on December 05, 2020, 09:38:12 AM
My father's father was an army officer and got a medal of honour from Hitler.  :P My name is the same as my father's father's name. My name is extremely rare. Only I and my father's father had it. I never met him, because he passed away very young over a decade before I was born.

Why didn't you write "my grandfather", just as everybody else would have written?  ???

Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on December 05, 2020, 09:40:55 AM
Why didn't you write "my grandfather", just as everybody else would have written?  ???

Instead of the Hitler connection people are shocked by my crappy grammar? I like father's father because it tells he is not from my mothers side (mother's father).
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on December 05, 2020, 09:45:31 AM
Instead of the Hitler connection people are shocked by my crappy grammar? I like father's father because it tells he is not from my mothers side (mother's father).

Paternal grandfather, then.  ;)

And why would I be shocked by your paternal grandfather's being decorated by Hitler? King Michael of Romania was decorated by Stalin.  ;D

Bravery is bravery, regardless of who acknowledges it. I greatly admire Finland and Marshall President Mannerheim for their courage and determination to fight the Soviet aggression.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on December 05, 2020, 09:48:47 AM

     There are people who are harmed by an obsessive preoccupation with sports, too. Whether it's nature or nurture, I can't say. Most of us are unharmed by it. I'm happy if my interests only harm others. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)

     I'll try to be serious, for now. My understanding of fascism is behavioral more than spectral. The left/right distinctions that can apply to democrats, rule of law and constitutional factions don't fit Mussolini or Hitler. They attack the democratic order with its own tools and combine programmatic elements from both the left and right.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on December 05, 2020, 09:51:20 AM
Paternal grandfather, then.  ;)

Okay, thanks. I'll adopt that terminology. ;)

And why would I be shocked by your paternal grandfather's being decorated by Hitler? King Michael of Romania was decorated by Stalin.  ;D

Bravery is bravery, regardless of who acknowledges it. I greatly admire Finland and Marshall President Mannerheim for their courage and determination to fight the Soviet aggression.

It's your own business what shocks you. People get shocked for whatever reason and the name Hitler has been an effective way to shock for historical reason. I'm glad if people are not shocked. I don't need to "hide" my paternal grandfather.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on December 05, 2020, 09:55:40 AM
It's your own business what shocks you. People get shocked for whatever reason and the name Hitler has been an effective way to shock for historical reason. I'm glad if people are not shocked. I don't need to "hide" my paternal grandfather.

|You got me completely wrong. If anything, my post was absolutely against "hiding" your paternal grandfather. He bravely fought for his country and I respectfully bow to his memory.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on December 05, 2020, 09:59:25 AM
    My understanding of fascism is behavioral more than spectral. The left/right distinctions that can apply to democrats, rule of law and constitutional factions don't fit Mussolini or Hitler. They attack the democratic order with its own tools and combine programmatic elements from both the left and right.

You recently posted a link in which several professors were asked whether Trump is a fascist. Every single one of them answered "no". Why do you still keep flogging this dead horse?
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: steve ridgway on December 05, 2020, 10:14:59 AM
I didn't mean to be pedantic or offensive. If I sounded like that I apologize.

No it didn’t sound like that. I don’t identify as English to the point I can’t laugh at them.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on December 05, 2020, 10:26:49 AM
No it didn’t sound like that. I don’t identify as English to the point I can’t laugh at them.

I am relieved.  :-*
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: drogulus on December 05, 2020, 11:06:48 AM
     
You recently posted a link in which several professors were asked whether Trump is a fascist. Every single one of them answered "no". Why do you still keep flogging this dead horse?

     It's not dead until I kill it. What Trump may not quite be doesn't tell you what he quite is. That's the question I'm exploring. The experts who were queried indicated that there's a wider group of authoritarians who attack lawful democratic orders that don't tick all the fascist boxes as we know them from history. I have mentioned this before.

     If scholars of authoritarianism are interested in how Trump fits, I'm not surprised. They showed little interest in claims that conservatives are really fascists, and that too is not surprising. I think you are incurious about actual living horses.

     For the curious, here's an alternative view that has merit:

     “Almost the Complete Opposite of Fascism” (https://jewishcurrents.org/almost-the-complete-opposite-of-fascism/)

DK: The historian Timothy Snyder, among other prominent public intellectuals, has argued that Trump’s approach to the presidency resembles that of 20th-century dictators like Hitler or Mussolini. The obvious counter is that Trump is going to submit to the election result, but are people like Snyder completely off-base? Trump may be lazy and incompetent, and US institutions may be stronger than some predicted, but is it fair to characterize Trump and his hardcore supporters as far-right, illiberal, even fascist, and at the very least a test of how much strain the Constitution can endure?

CR: There is no question, in my mind, that Trump and his supporters are far-right and illiberal. I’ve said so from the beginning. One of my differences with Snyder and people who subscribe to the view that Trump is a fascist or authoritarian is that their desire to call Trump that often arises from a failure to understand conservatism more generally, which has always been a far-right and illiberal and anti-liberal form of politics. Many of the attributes people decry in Trump and his followers were primary features of the conservatism I was describing in The Reactionary Mind (and got a lot of flak from liberals for so describing). To my mind, the comparisons between Trump and Hitler or Mussolini come from people who only began thinking about American conservatism and the Republican Party when Trump came along.


     
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on December 05, 2020, 11:15:39 AM
|You got me completely wrong. If anything, my post was absolutely against "hiding" your paternal grandfather. He bravely fought for his country and I respectfully bow to his memory.

I doubt he "fought" that much as an officer, but I'm sure he did his job well as a part of the chain of command.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: 71 dB on December 05, 2020, 11:18:19 AM
Something that may be of help to some people: Reading Too Much Political News Is Bad for Your Well-Being (https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2020/10/reading-too-much-political-news-bad-happiness/616651/)

After the last 4 years I am ready to agree.

However, I think total ignorance of politics is also bad.
Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on December 05, 2020, 12:00:04 PM
     
     It's not dead until I kill it.

By all means, carry on.

Quote
What Trump may not quite be doesn't tell you what he quite is.

Trump is a former USA President.

Quote
That's the question I'm exploring.

By all means, carry on.



Title: Re: USA Politics (redux)
Post by: Florestan on December 05, 2020, 12:02:13 PM
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