GMG Classical Music Forum

Last year there were nice discussions on the advantages of monaural recordings.

https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,30881.msg1371678.html#msg1371678

What are your favorite mono recordings? Do you like them because of the performance or sound? Any recording that surpasses stereo sound?
I like the recording below for the superb performance and excellent sound.



(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81nwQbb45kL._SX466_.jpg)

a Franck/Wagner release:
(which I had to re-purchase in America, as this one - with a different, earlier cover - got a bit scrunched in the move from Manchester ...)

I am usually not bothered too much by mono qua mono but sometimes by the other sonic restrictions (distortions, very "dry" sound) of "typical" mono era recordings, so I don't think I ever preferred a historical recording because of the sound. Like someone said in the other thread, the window for "good mono" is fairly small, basically late 1940s until late 1950s, with a little longer for broadcast or live recordings (but in these latter cases I am usually slightly angry that the broadcasters didn't record in stereo even in the mid-60s...).
While I prefer some mono recording to bad stereo recordings, this is not the case for good stereo and this could be achieved already in the mid/late 1950s, e.g. by Living stereo or Living presence.

Probably the most amazing mono recording I have is the 1950s Verdi Requiem with Fricsay (DG, there is another later live recordings, also mono but IIRC that live one does not sound as good). To me this does sound better balanced and more "natural" than his Fidelio a few years later that was among DGs first stereo recordings. Many of Fricsay's mono recordings sound quite good and I am not bothered by their sound at all; IIRC the earliest of the Tchaikovsky symphonies recorded (#5) and some of the Bartok (Music for.../Divertimento/Concert for orchestra) are not as good, neither is Martin's Petite symphonie concertante. Strangely these mainly string orchestra don't sound as good in my recollection that full orchestra recordings.
Like the Hindemith shown above, many early-mid 1950s DG recordings sound quite good to my ears. Another recording with extraordinarily vivid mono sound is the Porgy and Bess on CBS Masterworks heritage, dir. Engel

[asin]B000001GQU[/asin] [asin]B000001H01[/asin] [asin]B000007QCJ[/asin]

I usually find pre-1930 recordings as having too poor sound, but am otherwise tolerant. In stuff from around 1950, even from the late 1940s, the sound issues can become pretty insignificant. If the musicianship is interesting enough, the recording can be really great listening.

But regarding pre-1945, appreciating works that you only know from such an early recording can be difficult, since a lot of details are lost in the overall sound picture. Also, I don't tend to listen to old vocal recordings; in fact, for vocal recordings, I prefer post-1960 stuff; moreover it has to do with the singing style.

^ MusicTurner:  true ... a lot of us that are old enough to remember the radio broadcasts as children when such old recordings were on the air have a certain nostalgic feeling for some of those, however - but I don't make a steady diet of them.   :)

Robert Craft Webern

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/the-complete-music-of-anton-webern/hnum/10758552

Wolfgang Schneiderhan Bach partita 2

But when you think about it there are going to be too many -- think . . . Hotter's two Winterreise, all those Mengelberg and Furtwangler recordings, Pears, early Klemperer. Gieseking. Cortot. Sofro.


Too many.

I'm out of here.

I have been told that especially acoustic recordings from before 1928 (or whenever electrical recordings started) would sound best on an acoustical gramophone but I don't think I have ever heard such a thing.
Anyway, I thought the question referred mostly to "Hifi mono" from the late 1940s or so. And to the sound, not that one likes certain historical recordings immensely in spite of the sound.
Because while there are recordings from the 1930s where I find the sound surprisingly good for the vintage, this qualifier says it all. I usually still need some time to adjust and not be put off by the historical sound whereas this is rare with good sounding ca. 1952 mono.

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on September 11, 2022, 08:51:33 PMWhat are your favorite mono recordings? Do you like them because of the performance or sound? Any recording that surpasses stereo sound?

First, there are no advantages to mono sound. 

Second, late, magnetic tape mono recordings are often aurally as pleasing, and sometimes more so, than early stereo recordings, but that ended in the early 60s at the latest.

Third, I have hundreds of mono recordings in my collection that I enjoy immensely, and the enjoyment derives from performance quality.  Some mono performances surpass later stereo recordings in terms of performance. 

Some fine mono recordings include:

Wilhelm Backhaus' mono LvB sonata cycle
Wilhelm Kempff's pre-war and wartime incomlete LvB sonata cycle, and his complete mono cycle from the 50s
Pablo Casals' Bach Cello Suites
Clemens Krauss' 1953 Ring cycle - my favorite Ring
Walter Gieseking's 1930s Debussy Prelude recordings
Wilhelm Furtwangler's wartime Bruckner 9

Indeed, there are too many to list, partly because some of the greatest recording artists recorded solely, primarily, or at their best in mono, eg, Toscanini, Krauss, Beecham, Furtwangler, Mengelberg, Walter (large mono and stereo discographies), Cortot, Gieseking, Rachmaninoff, Hofmann, Kapell, Schnabel, Rubinstein (massive mono and stereo discographies), Haskil, Moiseiwitsch, and on and on.

Quote from: Jo498 on September 12, 2022, 03:11:26 AMI have been told that especially acoustic recordings from before 1928 (or whenever electrical recordings started)

Electrical recordings began in 1925.

Quote from: Todd on September 12, 2022, 05:39:45 AM
First, there are no advantages to mono sound. 

Well, I know someone who would nuance that. He runs a single Quad ESL 57 with a Leak mono valve amp, he's interested in hi fi. This is what he said

QuoteI now have the best room I ever heard ESLs in, and using just one as a mono speaker really does alleviate many problems in small spaces, while in the past I used a pair either side of a fireplace, which was not splendid, but still good. Then I used a pair and latterly a single speaker in a smaller room. The improvement brought by optimising one speaker in a small space really brought things up in quality. Now with an almost large room, about 17 by 19 feet, I have the speaker firing not quite diagonally. Minimum of five feet behind the speaker to the wall and six feet behind me. Still quite close to the speaker from the listening position. Amazing naturalness results.

and when I said I was going to try it with my ESL 63s he said

QuoteI do think the non-pin-point presentation of the old ESL 57 may actually be better for mono than the "idealised point source" concentric ring design of the 63, which after all was designed as a stereo pair speaker set. The 57 was designed as single speaker mono studio monitor first and foremost and the fact that it still made a good stereo speaker was more or less good luck.

I did try it, because then I had a preamp which could output mono. I did not care for the result, but maybe the point source of the 63s was the problem, maybe the amp -- or maybe I have gotten so used to stereo that I found it hard to adjust.

Quote from: Mandryka on September 12, 2022, 08:30:12 AMWell, I know someone who would nuance that. He runs a single Quad ESL 57 with a Leak mono valve amp, he's interested in hi fi. This is what he said

What you describe is the obsession of a (presumably) elderly man who appears to allow intense nostalgia to severely color his judgment of reproduced sound, which is perfectly fine.  I've heard newer Quads, and they are fine for people who prefer that style of presentation.  I do not.  I realize that the legendary Quad ESL 57 is supposed to border on the magical, but dipole electrostats just don't sound good.  I prefer ribbon tweeters combined with dynamic drivers, but I know some/many/most people do not.  My preference does not mean there is an advantage to ribbon tweeters combined with dynamic drivers.

That is different from mono offering an advantage over stereo.  Depending on playback gear - or ripping options in the digital realm - one has the option to listen to any recording as a mono recording, whereas synthesizing stereo sound from a mono source always sounds atrocious.  There are no advantages to mono sound

Quote from: Jo498 on September 12, 2022, 12:04:55 AM
I am usually not bothered too much by mono qua mono but sometimes by the other sonic restrictions (distortions, very "dry" sound) of "typical" mono era recordings, so I don't think I ever preferred a historical recording because of the sound. Like someone said in the other thread, the window for "good mono" is fairly small, basically late 1940s until late 1950s, with a little longer for broadcast or live recordings (but in these latter cases I am usually slightly angry that the broadcasters didn't record in stereo even in the mid-60s...).
While I prefer some mono recording to bad stereo recordings, this is not the case for good stereo and this could be achieved already in the mid/late 1950s, e.g. by Living stereo or Living presence.

Probably the most amazing mono recording I have is the 1950s Verdi Requiem with Fricsay (DG, there is another later live recordings, also mono but IIRC that live one does not sound as good). To me this does sound better balanced and more "natural" than his Fidelio a few years later that was among DGs first stereo recordings. Many of Fricsay's mono recordings sound quite good and I am not bothered by their sound at all; IIRC the earliest of the Tchaikovsky symphonies recorded (#5) and some of the Bartok (Music for.../Divertimento/Concert for orchestra) are not as good, neither is Martin's Petite symphonie concertante. Strangely these mainly string orchestra don't sound as good in my recollection that full orchestra recordings.
Like the Hindemith shown above, many early-mid 1950s DG recordings sound quite good to my ears. Another recording with extraordinarily vivid mono sound is the Porgy and Bess on CBS Masterworks heritage, dir. Engel

[asin]B000001GQU[/asin] [asin]B000001H01[/asin] [asin]B000007QCJ[/asin]

Yes I was thinking about the recordings of Markevitch and Fricsay from DG. Great sound and impeccable performance!

Quote from: Mandryka on September 12, 2022, 03:00:09 AM
But when you think about it there are going to be too many -- think . . . Hotter's two Winterreise, all those Mengelberg and Furtwangler recordings, Pears, early Klemperer. Gieseking. Cortot. Sofro.


Too many.

I'm out of here.

Nice list !  Would you please explain about Pears?

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on September 12, 2022, 09:43:30 AM


Nice list !  Would you please explain about Pears?

Explain what? The recordings I was thinking of? Well, this sort of thing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsmXYLRNzis&t=79s&ab_channel=incontrariomotu

Hi DBK,

There are so many wonderful recordings that were released either only in mono or mono AND stereo.

As I think it was Todd (who beat me to it) had mentioned, the Beethoven mono recordings with Kempff are particularly wonderful.  He recorded them three times but not in totality.  The set that I have (and love) is this one: 

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/4139TeWJJ8L._SX355_.jpg)

Gieseking playing Debussy...to die for.  :)  Will have to double-check what else I have of his...

Several of Cortot's recordings are very special to me; in particular, his recording of Chopin's PC No. 2 with Barbirolli (the one that I have is on Naxos).  His Franck, Saint-Saens, Ravel album (also on Naxos) is wonderful.  I grew so enamored of Cortot that I bought an EMI boxed set of his...trying to remember the name of the series....Icons, I believe.

There are so many great recordings out there.

By the way, one theory that I have re sound quality:  Don't try and listen to them on a very current, super-high detailed system which shows everything.  I find that I enjoy them better on a "less-than-perfect" system.  That, and just be willing and able to let any dated recording ways just go to the wayside and immerse yourself in the performance.  That said, in some cases, I'm pleasantly surprised how good some of the later ones sound on my better system.  I'm curious as to what others think of my comments?

PD

(http://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/62/31/0007464633162_600.jpg)

In general, I don't find stereo that necessary in solo piano music.

Prokofiev: Violin Concerto No. 1 - Szigeti/Beecham

(https://img.discogs.com/ZRMR_rYGK0zPl3Nz0UA6Ho5OYIs=/fit-in/600x598/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-8145577-1456049293-7412.jpeg.jpg)

Shostakovich: Symphony No. 10 - Ancerl/Czech Philharmonic

(https://images.universal-music.de/img/assets/117/117190/4/720/stravinsky-violin-concerto-in-d-shostakovich-symphony-no10-op93-0028946366620.jpg)

(https://i.discogs.com/9AX14WcFbRM53qNoOEHd-WlEbJGNy7UmnlOnhhP0uPk/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTM1NjM4/OTYtMTMzNTQ0MzA3/OS5qcGVn.jpeg)

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on September 12, 2022, 10:50:19 AMAs I think it was Todd (who beat me to it) had mentioned, the Beethoven mono recordings with Kempff are particularly wonderful.  He recorded them three times but not in totality.

Slight correction, he did record three complete cycles, but one was recorded live in Japan and is a Japanese market only release on King International.  He recorded an almost complete cycle in the 30s-40s as well.  The DG complete mono cycle is the one to have if one can have only one.

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on September 12, 2022, 10:50:19 AMDon't try and listen to them on a very current, super-high detailed system which shows everything.  I find that I enjoy them better on a "less-than-perfect" system.

I'm the opposite.  I prefer to listen to older recordings, all the way back to Josef Hofmann's 1903 recordings or Artur Nikisch's 1913 Beethoven Fifth, on the best system I have, to eke out every last bit of instrumental sound.  That written, I care less now about sound than I did a decade ago and will happily listen to wireless earbuds if that is what I have available. 

Quote from: Daverz on September 12, 2022, 11:11:46 AM
(http://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/62/31/0007464633162_600.jpg)

In general, I don't find stereo that necessary in solo piano music.

Prokofiev: Violin Concerto No. 1 - Szigeti/Beecham

(https://img.discogs.com/ZRMR_rYGK0zPl3Nz0UA6Ho5OYIs=/fit-in/600x598/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-8145577-1456049293-7412.jpeg.jpg)

Shostakovich: Symphony No. 10 - Ancerl/Czech Philharmonic

(https://images.universal-music.de/img/assets/117/117190/4/720/stravinsky-violin-concerto-in-d-shostakovich-symphony-no10-op93-0028946366620.jpg)

(https://i.discogs.com/9AX14WcFbRM53qNoOEHd-WlEbJGNy7UmnlOnhhP0uPk/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTM1NjM4/OTYtMTMzNTQ0MzA3/OS5qcGVn.jpeg)

Some nice ones there.

Quote from: Mandryka on September 12, 2022, 10:16:00 AM

Explain what? The recordings I was thinking of? Well, this sort of thing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsmXYLRNzis&t=79s&ab_channel=incontrariomotu

Yes what recordings do you particularly like? I will check the yt video shortly.

Quote from: Todd on September 12, 2022, 12:21:18 PM
Slight correction, he did record three complete cycles, but one was recorded live in Japan and is a Japanese market only release on King International.  He recorded an almost complete cycle in the 30s-40s as well.  The DG complete mono cycle is the one to have if one can have only one.


I'm the opposite.  I prefer to listen to older recordings, all the way back to Josef Hofmann's 1903 recordings or Artur Nikisch's 1913 Beethoven Fifth, on the best system I have, to eke out every last bit of instrumental sound.  That written, I care less now about sound than I did a decade ago and will happily listen to wireless earbuds if that is what I have available.

I knew (from recollection) that his first one wasn't complete.  Haven't heard of ones on King before.  When was it (they) recorded?  And I'm guessing, from all live performances?  I have some of his later recordings in stereo but (off the top of my head), believe that those of Beethoven's piano concertos.  Will look later.

And good for you re listening!   :)  For me, and I hope that this is true for you to, I just want to be able to be able to relax and enjoy the performances and the music.  That's what matters the most--to me anyway.

PD

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on September 12, 2022, 12:37:16 PMWhen was it (they) recorded?  And I'm guessing, from all live performances?

The set is taken from a 1961 cycle he performed in recital.

(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/54/7/7/939.jpg)

More color commentary here (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,22518.msg762410.html#msg762410)

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on September 12, 2022, 10:50:19 AM
Hi DBK,

There are so many wonderful recordings that were released either only in mono or mono AND stereo.

As I think it was Todd (who beat me to it) had mentioned, the Beethoven mono recordings with Kempff are particularly wonderful.  He recorded them three times but not in totality.  The set that I have (and love) is this one: 

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/4139TeWJJ8L._SX355_.jpg)

Gieseking playing Debussy...to die for.  :)  Will have to double-check what else I have of his...

Several of Cortot's recordings are very special to me; in particular, his recording of Chopin's PC No. 2 with Barbirolli (the one that I have is on Naxos).  His Franck, Saint-Saens, Ravel album (also on Naxos) is wonderful.  I grew so enamored of Cortot that I bought an EMI boxed set of his...trying to remember the name of the series....Icons, I believe.

There are so many great recordings out there.

By the way, one theory that I have re sound quality:  Don't try and listen to them on a very current, super-high detailed system which shows everything.  I find that I enjoy them better on a "less-than-perfect" system.  That, and just be willing and able to let any dated recording ways just go to the wayside and immerse yourself in the performance.  That said, in some cases, I'm pleasantly surprised how good some of the later ones sound on my better system.  I'm curious as to what others think of my comments?

PD

Hi PD, I only have the Kempff stereo. I will check out his mono sonatas. Also, I don't know much of Cortot recordings and I always thought that I should explore his recordings.

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on September 12, 2022, 12:33:03 PM
Yes what recordings do you particularly like? I will check the yt video shortly.

I'll tell you one thing which I think is a bit special and which kind of suits his voice very well, the three "songs" by Priaulx Reiner which he recorded, you'll find it at the end of the big Anniversary box on streaming services. Pears's strength for me is that he can make the words sound meaningful - he's good with the poetry. And where the music starts to approach spoken word, as in the Reiner, this aspect really can come to the fore.


There's lots of good Britten which he recorded of course. The canticles, the serenade, Quint in The Turn of the Screw - I remember he was outstanding in all of those.

And check the early music he recorded with Bream.

His voice changed quite early in his career and became very very distinctive. Some people just can't tolerate it. I can tolerate it well, because of his way with the words.

What is often not realised is that during the period when both mono and stereo recordings were released onto the market record companies used two sound engineer teams, one mono the other stereo. I have a Mercury LP which lists the two engineers, but can't find it! Instead I looked up the Decca discography and the first recording made by them with two engineers in tandem was in October 1956, a Joseph Krips recording of Schumann's "Spring" Symphony. Kenneth Wilkinson, Decca's top engineer, recorded mono LXT 5347 and Gordon Parry stereo SXL 2223. Weirdly this double team method came to an end in May 1958 with also a Krips recording, Schubert's 9th. Now stereo took precedence with "Wilkie" engineering stereo SXL 2045 and Peter van Biere LXT 5471 mono.

With that long preamble I'm making the point that mono recordings of the period can and often do sound better then stereo of the same recording. Stereo was seen as a gimmick that would not catch on so resources were channelled to mono.

I picked up a mono copy of the famous Michelangeli recording of Ravel's PC in G. Later, I located a stereo copy. Foolishly I sold my "inferior" mono copy only to find the stereo lacked the dynamics and focus of the mono.

It irks me when mono recordings are treated as poor relations of stereo. They are not inferior just different.       

Quote from: Irons on September 13, 2022, 07:38:41 AM
What is often not realised is that during the period when both mono and stereo recordings were released onto the market record companies used two sound engineer teams, one mono the other stereo. I have a Mercury LP which lists the two engineers, but can't find it! Instead I looked up the Decca discography and the first recording made by them with two engineers in tandem was in October 1956, a Joseph Krips recording of Schumann's "Spring" Symphony. Kenneth Wilkinson, Decca's top engineer, recorded mono LXT 5347 and Gordon Parry stereo SXL 2223. Weirdly this double team method came to an end in May 1958 with also a Krips recording, Schubert's 9th. Now stereo took precedence with "Wilkie" engineering stereo SXL 2045 and Peter van Biere mono.

With that long preamble I'm making the point that mono recordings of the period can and often do sound better then stereo of the same recording. Stereo was seen as a gimmick that would not catch on so resources were channelled to mono.

I picked up a mono copy of the famous Michelangeli recording of Ravel's PC in G. Later, I located a stereo copy. Foolishly I sold my "inferior" mono copy only to find the stereo lacked the dynamics and focus of the mono.

It irks me when mono recordings are treated as poor relations of stereo. They are not inferior just different.       

Good points Irons.  :)

Pd

I won't pretend to know much of anything at all about the pre-stereo era. But there are a few I love:

Artur Schnabel's Beethoven and Schubert, all of it

Walter Giekesking's Debussy. Somehow he plays the music completely differently than anyone else, and in a way that seems closer to the composer's "real intentions" than any other recording I've ever heard. But what do I know?

Oistrakh/Konwitschny/Dresden Brahms and Tchaikovsky violin concertos. Probably my favorite performance of either work.

Furtwängler/NDR SO Brahms 1 (from 1951 or thereabouts). Oddly, this was the recording that got me into Brahms.

I'm sure others are being forgotten about.

My only mono recordings consist of two volumes on Testament, both featuring the Hollywood String Quartet:

Beethoven Late String Quartets

Schoenberg/Schubert, with the former's Verklärte Nacht and the latter's String Quintet in C Major.

The Beethoven set is about as solid overall as any other, imho, and the Schubert/ Schoenberg is incomparable.

Two recordings in particular:

Furtwängler/Philharmonia Orchestra Wagner's Tristan und Isolde. Absolutely stunning, for its passionate intensity, harmonic richness and orchestral colour.

Knappertsbusch Wagner's Parsifal (from the Bayreuth Festival 1951). My introduction to Parsifal, a masterful interpretation.

Quote from: Lisztianwagner on September 14, 2022, 08:49:51 AM
Two recordings in particular:

Furtwängler/Philharmonia Orchestra Wagner's Tristan und Isolde. Absolutely stunning, for its passionate intensity, harmonic richness and orchestral colour.

It's been a while, but I remember enjoying the fragment from Berlin.

Bartok, Concerto for Orchestra, Fricsay

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/218KJQHN2ZL.jpg)

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on September 11, 2022, 08:51:33 PM

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81nwQbb45kL._SX466_.jpg)

Yes, this is one of the first to come up in my head!

Also, the Grainger recording of Grieg Piano Concerto.

Quote from: springrite on September 14, 2022, 10:10:21 AM
Yes, this is one of the first to come up in my head!

Also, the Grainger recording of Grieg Piano Concerto.

Yes, there are several Grainger versions, but the Stokowski recording comes to mind, besides Grainger on a piano roll + a modern stereo orchestra, of which there at least two versions.

Quote from: MusicTurner on September 14, 2022, 10:37:04 AM
Yes, there are several Grainger versions, but the Stokowski recording comes to mind, besides Grainger on a piano roll + a modern stereo orchestra, of which there at least two versions.

Right. I am of course referring to the Stokowski recording.

I often tend to prefer mono recordings when I'm listening in a sonically compromised environment, like in the car or outside -- in a modern digital recording it's easy to miss the softly played quiet bits, whereas the compression on old recordings can actually help make sure everything is audible (or at least as much as was captured on the original tapes). 

Lately I've been enjoying a lot of Hermann Scherchen's recordings, particularly his Haydn and Beethoven.  I'd say they're both worth a listen, and if nothing else they convincingly dismiss any argument that the HIP movement invented speedy tempos... :)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51ejFlq1AHL._AC_UL600_SR600,600_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61axib309TL._SY355_.jpg)

I also like a lot of older chamber music recordings, most recently the very old-school Beethoven SQ cycle from the Hungarian Qt:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/812ppnA1d2L._SY355_.jpg)

Here's a favourite of mine -- Furtwangler in rehearsal in 1948. Brahms 4. It's just amazing what he got them to do. And it's great to actually see him in action, the icy eyes, the relaxed body, like a rag doll. This is possibly the best Brahms 4 ever. Except it's only a rehearsal and we only have five minutes of it. But what five minutes!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leYbb5KZYDg&ab_channel=FrancisZhou

There's a story that Mravinsky once cancelled the concert because the rehearsal was so good . . .

Anything by the Hollywood String Quartet!

As has been already said, there are obviously lots of great mono recordings and many great artist's best were only captured in mono.
So I will only name a few, the first bunch will all have sound quality I categorize as "hifi mono" that IMO should not distract most listeners. The second bunch will have more "historical" sound.

sound usually quite good:

Fricsay: Verdi Requiem (DG studio), already mentioned above, certainly one of my favorites and the sound is better than on another favorite from slightly earlier, Toscanini
Calllas/de Sabata: Tosca, really deserves the legendary status, I doubt anyone will think about sound after the first few minutes.
Markevitch: Haydn: The Creation
Scherchen: Haydn: Symphony #88 (and 45 and 92, if one wants discs one probably has to get the whole bunch anyway but I found the London symphonies comparably dissapointing)
Rosbaud: Haydn 92+104
Furtwängler: Haydn 88, Schumann 4
Gould/Bernstein: Beethoven concerto #2
R. Serkin: Diabelli Variations

not so great sound

Rubinstein/Toscanini Beethoven concerto #3 (+ 1940s recordings of sonatas op.31/3 and 57)
Furtwängler: Schubert 9 live 1940s (I prefer this one very much to the early 1950s studio recording but the later does have better sound) I am leaving out Furtwängler's Beethoven, Brahms etc. because I do not remember the relative (sound) qualities and special recs are hardly needed as they are usually famous anyway.
Heifetz/Feuermann: Brahms Double concerto
Schnabel: Schubert sonatas, esp. 959, Beethoven sonatas, esp. op.27/2

Quote from: Todd on September 12, 2022, 09:29:50 AM
What you describe is the obsession of a (presumably) elderly man who appears to allow intense nostalgia to severely color his judgment of reproduced sound, which is perfectly fine.  I've heard newer Quads, and they are fine for people who prefer that style of presentation.  I do not.  I realize that the legendary Quad ESL 57 is supposed to border on the magical, but dipole electrostats just don't sound good.  I prefer ribbon tweeters combined with dynamic drivers, but I know some/many/most people do not.  My preference does not mean there is an advantage to ribbon tweeters combined with dynamic drivers.

The ESL57 doesn't sound like any of the newer Quads which while also limited in dynamics like the ESL57 just don't sound particularly interesting, which puts them at a major losing position all around; there is just no point in putting up with Quad limitations if they don't do something right. No nostalgia for me, as I'm in my late 30s. They just wound up being the speakers I ended up with after owning a little over a half dozen speakers plus 15 years of outside auditions, at the time the ESL57 were the only ones that had the most realistic presentation for unamplified instruments, particularly in the midrange. That was old me.

Now I don't think things like driver topology or whatever really matter, ie being able to see the fancy high priced Serbian ribbons or Scandanavian dynamic drivers will probably determine what you think of the sound quality far more than it matters. The blind testing shows that the best sounding speakers adhere to certain measurement parameters which might be able to be achieved with any number of topologies given good design. I'd never trust anything DIY as these kind of designs require state of the art measuring tools starting at six figures to do properly.

New me - after hearing them, Kii Three can very easily keep up with the ESL57 and much more.

Quote
That is different from mono offering an advantage over stereo.  Depending on playback gear - or ripping options in the digital realm - one has the option to listen to any recording as a mono recording, whereas synthesizing stereo sound from a mono source always sounds atrocious.  There are no advantages to mono sound

Agree. If anyone is mentioning a mono mix sounding superior then the stereo mix was not done properly or the person just like the way the mono sounds.

Quote from: Todd on September 12, 2022, 12:21:18 PM
I'm the opposite.  I prefer to listen to older recordings, all the way back to Josef Hofmann's 1903 recordings or Artur Nikisch's 1913 Beethoven Fifth, on the best system I have, to eke out every last bit of instrumental sound. That written, I care less now about sound than I did a decade ago and will happily listen to wireless earbuds if that is what I have available.

+1 to everything you've written, particular the bold since my post was primarily on speakers.

Quote from: hvbias on September 15, 2022, 11:22:02 AMat the time the ESL57 were the only ones that had the most realistic presentation for unamplified instruments, particularly in the midrange.

I find that literally impossible to believe.  All brands of electrostats are less capable of reproducing piano than either dynamic drivers or some planars.  I doubt they would be able to reproduce cello in a satisfactory way, but maybe.

Quote from: hvbias on September 15, 2022, 11:22:02 AMI'd never trust anything DIY as these kind of designs require state of the art measuring tools starting at six figures to do properly.

How do you know?

Quote from: hvbias on September 15, 2022, 11:22:02 AMThe blind testing shows that the best sounding speakers adhere to certain measurement parameters which might be able to be achieved with any number of topologies given good design.

What blind testing?

Quote from: hvbias on September 15, 2022, 11:22:02 AM
The ESL57 doesn't sound like any of the newer Quads which while also limited in dynamics like the ESL57 just don't sound particularly interesting, which puts them at a major losing position all around; there is just no point in putting up with Quad limitations if they don't do something right. No nostalgia for me, as I'm in my late 30s. They just wound up being the speakers I ended up with after owning a little over a half dozen speakers plus 15 years of outside auditions, at the time the ESL57 were the only ones that had the most realistic presentation for unamplified instruments, particularly in the midrange. That was old me.

Now I don't think things like driver topology or whatever really matter, ie being able to see the fancy high priced Serbian ribbons or Scandanavian dynamic drivers will probably determine what you think of the sound quality far more than it matters. The blind testing shows that the best sounding speakers adhere to certain measurement parameters which might be able to be achieved with any number of topologies given good design. I'd never trust anything DIY as these kind of designs require state of the art measuring tools starting at six figures to do properly.

New me - after hearing them, Kii Three can very easily keep up with the ESL57 and much more.

Agree. If anyone is mentioning a mono mix sounding superior then the stereo mix was not done properly or the person just like the way the mono sounds.

+1 to everything you've written, particular the bold since my post was primarily on speakers.

This is the way to give ESL 57s the power to shift more air.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/325286877772?mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&siteid=0&customid=link&campid=5338728743&toolid=20001&mkevt=1

Quote from: Mandryka on September 15, 2022, 12:41:11 PM
This is the way to give ESL 57s the power to shift more air.

What is the xmax of an ESL 57?

Quote from: Todd on September 15, 2022, 12:40:33 PM
I find that literally impossible to believe.  All brands of electrostats are less capable of reproducing piano than either dynamic drivers or some planars.  I doubt they would be able to reproduce cello in a satisfactory way, but maybe.

Yes, I should have said for instrument timbre they're the most realistic sounding, but that doesn't include reproducing realistic SPL. You will not be able to get SPL from what is heard at the piano or in nearby seats at a concert. Hence one of the reasons I was looking for something to replace them which didn't exist until a few years ago.

I've listened to plenty of solo cello at much louder than concert volumes from near a cello and they reproduce this with ease.

I have heard Sound Lab 845 electrostats in a dealer's setup and these will reproduce piano at realistic SPLs (or other music at levels I'd want to have Etymotic earplugs in for), but they had other issues.

Quote
What blind testing?

Floyd Toole's research, about 40 years worth of it. This video is a brief overview of it: https://youtu.be/zrpUDuUtxPM

This book goes into far more detail: https://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduction-Psychoacoustics-Loudspeakers-Engineering/dp/113892136X/

Basically the measured off axis response of the speakers needs to be similar to the on axis response because we're not listening to speakers outdoors, we're also hearing the reflected sound off the walls.

Quote from: Mandryka on September 15, 2022, 12:41:11 PM
This is the way to give ESL 57s the power to shift more air.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/325286877772?mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&siteid=0&customid=link&campid=5338728743&toolid=20001&mkevt=1

It won't solve everything and will introduce other problems. I've never had any interest in it.

Quote from: Mandryka on September 14, 2022, 12:17:54 PM
Here's a favourite of mine -- Furtwangler in rehearsal in 1948. Brahms 4. It's just amazing what he got them to do. And it's great to actually see him in action, the icy eyes, the relaxed body, like a rag doll. This is possibly the best Brahms 4 ever. Except it's only a rehearsal and we only have five minutes of it. But what five minutes!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leYbb5KZYDg&ab_channel=FrancisZhou

There's a story that Mravinsky once cancelled the concert because the rehearsal was so good . . .

Incredible!

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on September 12, 2022, 10:50:19 AM
Hi DBK,

There are so many wonderful recordings that were released either only in mono or mono AND stereo.

As I think it was Todd (who beat me to it) had mentioned, the Beethoven mono recordings with Kempff are particularly wonderful.  He recorded them three times but not in totality.  The set that I have (and love) is this one: 

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/4139TeWJJ8L._SX355_.jpg)

Gieseking playing Debussy...to die for.  :)  Will have to double-check what else I have of his...

Several of Cortot's recordings are very special to me; in particular, his recording of Chopin's PC No. 2 with Barbirolli (the one that I have is on Naxos).  His Franck, Saint-Saens, Ravel album (also on Naxos) is wonderful.  I grew so enamored of Cortot that I bought an EMI boxed set of his...trying to remember the name of the series....Icons, I believe.

There are so many great recordings out there.

By the way, one theory that I have re sound quality:  Don't try and listen to them on a very current, super-high detailed system which shows everything.  I find that I enjoy them better on a "less-than-perfect" system.  That, and just be willing and able to let any dated recording ways just go to the wayside and immerse yourself in the performance.  That said, in some cases, I'm pleasantly surprised how good some of the later ones sound on my better system.  I'm curious as to what others think of my comments?

PD

I checked the Kempff via streaming, and the recording is lovely!

Quote from: hvbias on September 15, 2022, 12:57:36 PMYes, I should have said for instrument timbre they're the most realistic sounding, but that doesn't include reproducing realistic SPL....

I have heard Sound Lab 845 electrostats in a dealer's setup and these will reproduce piano at realistic SPLs (or other music at levels I'd want to have Etymotic earplugs in for)

I doubt both assertions, the first because of how ESL 57s have been reported to behave in room in terms of measured frequency response, and the second because of the amount of amplifier power that would be needed to reproduce just midrange at forte, let alone fortissimo.  But maybe.  (I don't know Sound Lab specs, so maybe they are easy to drive.)  Without measurements it's only anecdotal.

Quote from: hvbias on September 15, 2022, 12:57:36 PMFloyd Toole's research, about 40 years worth of it. This video is a brief overview of it: https://youtu.be/zrpUDuUtxPM

Toole's work is an excellent approach to use for people who care about sound.  Most people don't. 

Quote from: Todd on September 15, 2022, 01:40:25 PM
I doubt both assertions, the first because of how ESL 57s have been reported to behave in room in terms of measured frequency response, and the second because of the amount of amplifier power that would be needed to reproduce just midrange at forte, let alone fortissimo. 

No, unless you have a Klippel at the minimum in room behavior (presuming you mean the power response) is meaningless. I am trying to arrange for this to happen, but it's complex without having good shipping boxes. They will not reproduce piano at fortissimo.

Quote
But maybe.  (I don't know Sound Lab specs, so maybe they are easy to drive.)  Without measurements it's only anecdotal.

Of course, we're talking about subjective experiences of instruments. Having something like distortion at various SPL from 20 to 500 Hz would be more meaningful and unequivocal.

Quote
Toole's work is an excellent approach to use for people who care about sound.  Most people don't.

No doubt, I'm wondering why you were asking about "what blind testing?" if you knew Toole's work, just seemed odd. The principles of what he published in his book seem to hold true for all the best sounding speakers I've heard, with one extra caveat (I'm still on the first edition, maybe this is addressed in the third) that has only relatively recently had more developments- replacing all passive crossovers with DSP.

Quote from: Todd on September 15, 2022, 12:40:33 PM
How do you know?

Pretty simple, you're a blind squirrel trying to find a nut if you don't have the proper tools to design a loudspeaker, it's possible to design something that is good enough or something the owner is happy with. This would apply to all DIY'ers and audiophile boutique speaker companies that aim more to impress with high priced Serbian ribbon drivers, brag about using the same Scandanavian drivers some speaker company charging $250k for speakers or Japanese drivers made from old masters having decades of stamping on paper from an extinct tree. At best you might see some overly smoothed single point measurement from them.

Quote from: Mandryka on September 15, 2022, 12:41:11 PM
This is the way to give ESL 57s the power to shift more air.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/325286877772?mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&siteid=0&customid=link&campid=5338728743&toolid=20001&mkevt=1

I was a bit pressed for time yesterday as we were leaving for the weekend, so I couldn't expand on this issues with this- both speakers are playing in phase; they would have to be. With that I would have to imagine the effects of comb filtering would cause some odd and I would think very obvious cancellations.

In general I've noticed people can not be too picky if they have some preformed dharma in their head. Harman/Olive's "what to listen for training" makes things like this (or most velocity issues) much more obvious.

Quote from: hvbias on September 16, 2022, 03:29:57 AMNo, unless you have a Klippel at the minimum in room behavior (presuming you mean the power response) is meaningless.

This is part of the Quad mythology. 

Quote from: hvbias on September 16, 2022, 03:29:57 AMOf course, we're talking about subjective experiences of instruments.

This would be easy enough to objectively measure at all frequencies and SPLs.  Loudspeakers cannot reproduce the midrange of piano played at forte or fortissimo accurately without enormous amounts of power, and many drivers do not have the physical capacity to reproduce the piano accurately.  So we are indeed left with anecdotes.

Quote from: hvbias on September 16, 2022, 03:29:57 AMThe principles of what he published in his book seem to hold true for all the best sounding speakers I've heard

Out of curiosity, were Quad ESL 57s among the speakers tested?  Beyond that, the emphasis on flatter frequency response is more or less a given for good sound for many speakers, though some designers pursue other objectives.

Also, active crossovers have been used for decades, especially in studio gear, and they typically sound better than passive crossovers.  DSP may or may not represent an improvement.  That would require comparative measurements and listening. 

Quote from: hvbias on September 16, 2022, 03:29:57 AMPretty simple, you're a blind squirrel trying to find a nut if you don't have the proper tools to design a loudspeaker, it's possible to design something that is good enough or something the owner is happy with. This would apply to all DIY'ers and audiophile boutique speaker companies that aim more to impress with high priced Serbian ribbon drivers, brag about using the same Scandanavian drivers some speaker company charging $250k for speakers or Japanese drivers made from old masters having decades of stamping on paper from an extinct tree. At best you might see some overly smoothed single point measurement from them.

In other words, you don't know. 

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on September 15, 2022, 01:38:49 PM
I checked the Kempff via streaming, and the recording is lovely!

Glad that you enjoyed what you have heard!

PD

Quote from: hvbias on September 16, 2022, 03:53:59 AM
I was a bit pressed for time yesterday as we were leaving for the weekend, so I couldn't expand on this issues with this- both speakers are playing in phase; they would have to be. With that I would have to imagine the effects of comb filtering would cause some odd and I would think very obvious cancellations.

The comb filtering is there, but you don't really have two point sources interfering at the listener's location. In addition to the primary sources you have multiple reflections arriving at your ear from various surfaces in the room, which will never be symmetric, so at no frequency will you have two waves out of phase producing complete cancelation.

Bronislaw Huberman, George Szell, Vienna PO - Beethoven Violin Concerto (1935)
Wilhelm Backhaus, Karl Bohm, Vienna SO - Beethoven PC 4 (1950)
Lev Oborin, Aleksandr Gauk, USSR State and Radio SO - Tchaikovsky PC 1 (1948)

The absolutely unsurpassable renditions of these works for me.

Quote from: Florestan on September 16, 2022, 08:05:58 AM
Bronislaw Huberman, George Szell, Vienna PO - Beethoven Violin Concerto (1935)
Wilhelm Backhaus, Karl Bohm, Vienna SO - Beethoven PC 4 (1950)
Lev Oborin, Aleksandr Gauk, USSR State and Radio SO - Tchaikovsky PC 1 (1948)

The absolutely unsurpassable renditions of these works for me.

I've not heard the Szell/Huberman for years, but I remember that the two spark it off very well, Furtwangler/Fischer Beethoven PC5 is a bit like that. Here's a list of this sort of thing that I made more than 10 years ago, when I was into that sort of thing more. Some of it may be stereo, I'm not sure. I think today I'd add more Mengelberg -- but, I don't want to think about it too much: been there, done that, and this list is the tee shirt. I'm too cool for 19th century concertos now .



Scherchen's Handel Concerti Grossi Op 6
Ervin Nyiregyhazi playing Liszt Legends
Ervin Nyiregyhazi playing Rachmaninov Symphony 2
Ervin Nyiregyhazi playing the threnodies from Liszt Aneees
Mengelberg's live Beethoven 6
Scherchen's Matthew Passion
Mengelberg's Matthew Passion
Mengelberg's Bach cantatas
Mengelberg's Brahms Violin Concerto
Mengelberg Brahms 1
Anything sung by Erb
Felix Prohaska Bach cantatas with Stich-Randall
Furtwangler's Beethoven 3
Pfitzner's Beethoven 3 and 6
Furtwangler's Beethoven 4
Furtwangler's Brahms 1
Furtwangler's Brahms 2
Furtwangler's Brahms 4
Furtwangler's Tristan (the one with the missing Act 1)
Furtwangler's Metamorphosen
Furtwangler's Gran Partita
Furtwangler's Bruckner 5
Furtwangler's Bruckner 7
Furtwangler's Bruckner 9
Furtwangler's Beethoven 9
Furtwangler playing the Grosse Fuge
Albert Coates playing the Jupiter Symphony
The last 40 minutes of Furtwangler's Matthew Passion
Richter's Christmas Oratorio
Richter's St John Passion
Knappertsbusch's Parsifal with Vickers
Furtwangler's Schubert 9
Furtwangler's Schubert 8
Jurgen Jurgen's Monteverdi Vespers
Mengelberg live Schubert 9
Casals prelude to Cello Suites 5 and 6
Tocanini's Missa Solemnis with Kipnis
Segovia playing the Bach Chaconne
Tureck playing the Goldbergs and Partitas on Great Pianists
The largo from Chopin sonata 3 by Rosenthal
Cortot playing Schumann's Etudes (1950s) and Davidsbundlertanze
Cortot playing Chopin Walzes, nocturnes, sonatas, preludes, etudes and everything else
Edwin Fischer playing the last half of Bk 2 of WTC
Edwin Fischer playing Beethoven Op 110
Casals live cello suite 3
Scherchen playing Haydn 88
Levy playing the big  Liszt sonata
Peter Pears singing the Britten Serenade
Ney/Boehm Beethoven PC5, final movement only
Fischer/Furtwangler Brahms PC2
Arrau playing Op 111 on the VAI DVD
The young Souzay singing Nacht und Traume
Hubermann playing the slow movement of the Beethoven Concerto
Feuermann plaing the Ghost sonata and the Haydn Concerto
Busch Bros playing the Bach double Violin Concerto
Szigetti playing the Bach chaconne
Schnabel in the largo of Mozart PC 27
Schnabel's Brahms Intermeszzi
Schorr singing Wotan in Walkure
Solti's Gotterdammerung
Walcha playing Bach's English Suites
Bruno Walter playing the Mozart Funeral March thing
Hotter/Moore Winterreise
Hotter Bach cantatas
Kipnis Brahms serious songs
When the anti aircraft guns fire in Landowska's Scarlatti

Quote from: Mandryka on September 16, 2022, 08:28:41 AM
I've not heard the Szell/Huberman for years, but I remember that the two spark it off very well, Furtwangler/Fischer Beethoven PC5 is a bit like that. Here's a list of this sort of thing that I made more than 10 years ago, when I was into that sort of thing more. Some of it may be stereo, I'm not sure. I think today I'd add more Mengelberg -- but, I don't want to think about it too much: been there, done that, and this list is the tee shirt. I'm too cool for 19th century concertos now .


tti

The list is very informative! I will check some of them. Thanks a lot.

P.s. The Segovia looks interesting. I don't know anything about Ervin Nyiregyhazi.

Quote from: Florestan on September 16, 2022, 08:05:58 AM
Bronislaw Huberman, George Szell, Vienna PO - Beethoven Violin Concerto (1935)
Wilhelm Backhaus, Karl Bohm, Vienna SO - Beethoven PC 4 (1950)
Lev Oborin, Aleksandr Gauk, USSR State and Radio SO - Tchaikovsky PC 1 (1948)

The absolutely unsurpassable renditions of these works for me.

I like the recordings of Gauk too!

Quote from: Todd on September 16, 2022, 05:21:13 AM
Text

Quote from: Spotted Horses on September 16, 2022, 05:36:10 AM
The comb filtering is there, but you don't really have two point sources interfering at the listener's location. In addition to the primary sources you have multiple reflections arriving at your ear from various surfaces in the room, which will never be symmetric, so at no frequency will you have two waves out of phase producing complete cancelation.

Moved to a more appropriate thread: https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1069.msg1470926.html#msg1470926

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on September 16, 2022, 09:42:50 AM
The list is very informative! I will check some of them. Thanks a lot.

P.s. The Segovia looks interesting.

I listened to the Segovia very recently. These days I prefer the Bream.

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on September 16, 2022, 09:42:50 AM
I don't know anything about Ervin Nyiregyhazi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0S1KDOC8is&ab_channel=pianopera

DBK apologies for derailing the thread, I'll mention just one since there are so many fine performances already brought up. I compartmentalize classical music in my head by composer -> work, with performances nested under work; with my field I learned I needed to have a meticulous method of organizing information, so it's not the best way to retrieve this information out of order :)

Godowsky playing Godowsky's studies on Chopin's Etudes, these are if nothing else interesting to listen to the composer play them. Godowsky didn't record all but many are present on Marston Records volumes. As legendary a reputation he has, in reality Marc-André Hamelin outclasses him in sheer technical brilliance. And then if one has more interest than that David Stanhope has a superb DVD where he contrasts them against Chopin's.

Quote from: hvbias on September 16, 2022, 12:05:09 PM
apologies for derailing the thread

No ofense meant but the whole kerfuffle strikes me as a conspicuous case of not seeing (or rather hearing) the forest because of the trees.  ;D

Quote from: Florestan on September 16, 2022, 12:14:47 PM
No ofense meant but the whole kerfuffle strikes me as a conspicuous case of not seeing (or rather hearing) the forest because of the trees.  ;D

No offense taken, I lived in NYC for six years, it would take a lot to offend me, very easily count it on one hand in all my years on GMG which was a flat out racist comment. I think it would be a tired trope if this was on an audiophile message board, but I imagine the two or three that engaged in this are simply using speakers as a tool to hear music rather than music to hear the speakers.

I am genuinely not picky about recording quality, I think I am approaching 600 CDs for recordings made in the acoustic/78/acetate era, I don't want to think about the box sets :blank: . I have no interest in worrying about things that are out of my control (recording quality, mono, stereo, etc). When things are in my control, then I am very interested :)

What I mean is that the audiences of Liszt or Chopin could not care less about amps, frequencies or whatever... yet I am convinced that their relaționship to music was more profound than ours.

Quote from: hvbias on September 16, 2022, 12:05:09 PM
DBK apologies for derailing the thread, I'll mention just one since there are so many fine performances already brought up. I compartmentalize classical music in my head by composer -> work, with performances nested under work; with my field I learned I needed to have a meticulous method of organizing information, so it's not the best way to retrieve this information out of order :)

Godowsky playing Godowsky's studies on Chopin's Etudes, these are if nothing else interesting to listen to the composer play them. Godowsky didn't record all but many are present on Marston Records volumes. As legendary a reputation he has, in reality Marc-André Hamelin outclasses him in sheer technical brilliance. And then if one has more interest than that David Stanhope has a superb DVD where he contrasts them against Chopin's.

No problem at all. Discussion on audio set is welcome.

Quote from: Mandryka on September 16, 2022, 11:12:40 AM
I listened to the Segovia very recently. These days I prefer the Bream.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0S1KDOC8is&ab_channel=pianopera

Bream is my fav guitarist.

Quote from: Florestan on September 16, 2022, 12:36:56 PM
What I mean is that the audiences of Liszt or Chopin could not care less about amps, frequencies or whatever... yet I am convinced that their relaționship to music was more profound than ours.

Like 20 year olds today cannot imagine a world w/o smartphones and streaming, almost nobody in an industrialized/western country alive today can remember how special recorded music was or that all music had to be made live. My mother was born in the 1940s and she remembers that she was so excited/confused when making her first phone calls as a teenager that she hardly understood the person on the other end. (My paternal grandma, born 1908 did use a phone but she never introduced herself or properly ended calls. She just said something like "Someone needs to come around and pick up a basket of berries/beans etc. or do this and that. I wonder what happened if she got the wrong connection.)

What's also interesting is that there were supposedly "experiments" (more likely parlour games) in the early 20th century where listeners were apparently fooled by a 1900s horn gramophone vs. a musician or chamber group behind a heavy curtain.
There is even a (rather late, not very good) Holmes story where holmes uses a record to fool someone into believing that Holmes himself was remaining in some room playing violin.
Maybe they are just anecdotes, though.

Quote from: Jo498 on September 17, 2022, 01:10:44 AMWhat's also interesting is that there were supposedly "experiments" (more likely parlour games) in the early 20th century where listeners were apparently fooled by a 1900s horn gramophone vs. a musician or chamber group behind a heavy curtain.

That seems more akin to how people praised how realistic color looked in some early color photographs and movies.  That's something even today's cameras can't get right.  Both Fujifilm color science and Hasselblad Natural Colour Solution cannot be right, for instance.

Quote from: Mandryka on September 16, 2022, 11:12:40 AM
I listened to the Segovia very recently. These days I prefer the Bream.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0S1KDOC8is&ab_channel=pianopera

Charismatic playing!
I also checked some Schumann works by Cortot and I liked them.

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on September 17, 2022, 06:40:05 AM
Charismatic playing!
I also checked some Schumann works by Cortot and I liked them.

Yeah!!  ;D

PD

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on September 17, 2022, 06:40:05 AM
Charismatic playing!
I also checked some Schumann works by Cortot and I liked them.

And this morning I listened to his earlier recording of Chopin sonatas. This guy was just an outstanding musician and really, everything he ever recorded is well worth giving a shot.

Quote from: Todd on September 17, 2022, 05:02:22 AM
That seems more akin to how people praised how realistic color looked in some early color photographs and movies.  That's something even today's cameras can't get right.  Both Fujifilm color science and Hasselblad Natural Colour Solution cannot be right, for instance.

I grew up with b/w TV in the 1970s and when I watched color TV at relatives or friends I found the colors grossly artificial, as I guess many ca. 1980 color TVs were.
In Thomas Mann's Magic Mountain there is a whole chapter ("Fülle des Wohllauts", I am not trying to translate this, it's such a pretentious choice of words that it must be mixed with irony) with Hans Castorp enjoying the new toy of the sanatorium, a gramophone. This has a nice description of the sound reproduction, something like looking into the wrong side of a telescope or so. Nevertheless, Hans is quite impressed and I guess Mann who certainly didn't lack experience with high level live concerts was as well.
(I have been to a reading of the chapter with the pieces described played as far as possible; admittedly I am not and certainly was not over 20 years ago sufficiently versed in early 20th century acoustical recordings to tell if they really used such early ones or smuggled in some from the 1920s. One of the best demonstrations how well some old recordings can work might be Woody Allen's "Match Point")

Quote from: Jo498 on September 17, 2022, 08:30:34 AMThis has a nice description of the sound reproduction, something like looking into the wrong side of a telescope or so. Nevertheless, Hans is quite impressed and I guess Mann who certainly didn't lack experience with high level live concerts was as well.

The novelty of recordings early last century would have been very impressive indeed, as would the steady stream of light offered by incandescent light bulbs when compared to flickering candles, and other new technologies that represented a major improvement in the quality of life.  Such novelty may have led some people to overstate the relative quality of what they experienced.

Given the inherent physical limitations of acoustic and early electrical recording technology, recordings from the era cannot reproduce instruments properly, and certainly not orchestras, which often had instrument changes anyway.  (If memory serves, Nikisch replaced double basses with tubas when recording, for instance.)  Early recordings were geared toward reproducing the human voice, so if you can get your hands on ancient acoustic 78s, a proper gramophone from the era, and a proper needle, you can hear what, say, Caruso fans heard a hundred years ago.  I think it would be fun, but I doubt it would sound realistic, even discounting surface noise completely.  But maybe such a recording would in fact put Caruso right in the room.  Modern digital transfers will sound materially different.

The conversion from B&W to color TV was fun to experience, as was the transition from broadcast to cable.  I used a B&W TV into the late 80s because it was free, and the screen was larger than the color TVs I had (affordable) access to.  Color TV color quality could not match even cheap Kodak color print film of the time, but who wanted to watch new, glitzy color broadcasts in B&W if they didn't have to?  I am still somewhat displeased with color monitor displays, even when calibrated.  Source material dictates what one sees, and if one ever edits digital content from different cameras, still or video, one can still see how 5600K looks different source to source.

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on September 17, 2022, 06:40:05 AM
Charismatic playing!

I like his Albeiniz very much, this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Agl1qZRTcOM&ab_channel=davidhertzberg

It's the rubato that makes it special I think, so natural and beautiful.

Quote from: Mandryka on September 17, 2022, 09:30:29 AM
I like his Albeiniz very much, this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Agl1qZRTcOM&ab_channel=davidhertzberg

It's the rubato that makes it special I think, so natural and beautiful.

What a tone! And it is well-presented by the mono recording.
This is a picturesque and three-dimensional performance. In the octave part, he (only) slightly lags the higher notes and it makes an echo-like effect.
Julian Bream's Asturias (RCA Living Stereo with a great recording sound) is very good as well, but it is so fast.
I prefer this version of Segovia.


P.s. when I said Charismatic playing, I meant the performance by Nyiregyhazi.

Yes it's nice for me to go back to those Segovia recordings - I remember there was a sequence of about a dozen Sor etudes he recorded which I loved. And the Tarrega Alhambra.

This is one way to do it - Albert Coates, Jupiter


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=87PTFPmQMtE

(Just hearing it again made me think that if  Bruno Maderna ever played it, it might sound like this.)

And now this, Scherchen Matthew Passion. Amazing really! Cuneod on very fine form.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RXajEfeoOBc

Quote from: Mandryka on September 17, 2022, 07:32:01 PM
Yes it's nice for me to go back to those Segovia recordings - I remember there was a sequence of about a dozen Sor etudes he recorded which I loved. And the Tarrega Alhambra.

Yes they are great. I didn't know his mono-era recordings. I think the recording below (compilation?) is a killer. Warm and hip recording sound!



(https://angartwork.akamaized.net/webp/?id=136930176&size=296)

Quote from: Mandryka on September 18, 2022, 07:39:37 AM
And now this, Scherchen Matthew Passion. Amazing really! Cuneod on very fine form.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RXajEfeoOBc

Yes, sounds excellent!

How about Sofronitsky's 1949 Chopin barcarolle?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5H1gJwp8LvU

Quote from: Mandryka on September 18, 2022, 07:39:37 AM
And now this, Scherchen Matthew Passion. Amazing really! Cuneod on very fine form.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RXajEfeoOBc

Love Hugues Cuneod's singing.  :)  I'll have to try and get ahold of that recording.   Do you have the complete one Mandryka?

PD

The Scherchen SMP was on CD at least twice (MCA or Millenium classics and Tahra, I believe) but I never managed to secure a copy (fortunately a friend could provide me with a spare safety copy ;)).
It's probably my favorite pre-HIP Bach choral recording, despite some excentricities (like excruciatingly slow "O Mensch bewein" and "Wir setzen uns..." whereas the first chorus is quite fast, about as fast as more recent recordings). It's highly dramatic and most of the singers very good (I am not as fond of Munteanu as some others). Scherchen also did the b minor mass (twice, I only know the stereo) and the SJP even in stereo and they are also interesting but I don't find any as gripping as the SMP.
Scherchen also recorded a bunch of Bach cantatas and Messiah (I think once mono and once stereo) but I was not too fond of what I heard of them. (Neither of his Brandenburgs or Vivaldi (both probably solid for 1950s but hardly competitive later), but the Handel op.6 is worth seeking out, also excentric, quite interesting and expressive.)

Quote from: Jo498 on September 21, 2022, 03:35:07 AM
The Scherchen SMP was on CD at least twice (MCA or Millenium classics and Tahra, I believe) but I never managed to secure a copy (fortunately a friend could provide me with a spare safety copy ;)).
It's probably my favorite pre-HIP Bach choral recording, despite some excentricities (like excruciatingly slow "O Mensch bewein" and "Wir setzen uns..." whereas the first chorus is quite fast, about as fast as more recent recordings). It's highly dramatic and most of the singers very good (I am not as fond of Munteanu as some others). Scherchen also did the b minor mass (twice, I only know the stereo) and the SJP even in stereo and they are also interesting but I don't find any as gripping as the SMP.
Scherchen also recorded a bunch of Bach cantatas and Messiah (I think once mono and once stereo) but I was not too fond of what I heard of them. (Neither of his Brandenburgs or Vivaldi (both probably solid for 1950s but hardly competitive later), but the Handel op.6 is worth seeking out, also excentric, quite interesting and expressive.)

Thank you for the information.

I recall running across (and purchasing) one of Scherchen's Bach cantatas.  Trying to remember whether or not I kept it (Sometimes, once I get home and look at the LPs under better light--or play them--I then realize that they are not in good enough condition for me to be able to play and enjoy).  I'll take a look a bit later.  How is the sound on your copy (and which label was it on?)?  Ah, just checked through my LPs; I kept it (Westminster).  It has Lazlo on it but, alas, no Cuneod.

PD

I bought the Tara release of the Scherchen passion when it first came out, it sounds good to me. Cuenod is on particularly good form. The other interesting choral thing with Scherchen is the Haydn Seven Last Words - sound is not so good there.  And Schoenberg's Moses and Aaron.

I've never got into his Bach cantatas, he has some good singers though - Maureen Forester and Teresa Stich Randall. And I've never really got into his Mozart requiem. I have a B minor mass but I can't remember a thing about it. I've just put it on, possibly for the first time, and it sounds rather good actually.

I don't remember which cantatas and what CD that was; probably some grey issue, dubbed from LPs. Sound was not as good but that was not the main problem, more that the style worked in the more dramatic passions but not really in the cantatas.

I have not heard the mono recording of the Mozart Requiem but the stereo is also one of my favorite (good soloists, rather mediocre choir, unfortunately), admittedly the Mozart Requiem is not such a favorite of mine (except for the Introitus and Kyrie). I also have the 7 last words (this was an MCA twofer with the Mozart Requiem in the early 1990s or so) but it's been too long I listened to it (I prefer the piece in the orchestral or quartet version anyway).

Quote from: Mandryka on September 21, 2022, 02:18:59 AM
How about Sofronitsky's 1949 Chopin barcarolle?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5H1gJwp8LvU

Superb performance!
I was thinking about mentioning the box below. Great performance while the recording sound is a typical Soviet quality.


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51cUmHKtuCL._SX300_SY300_QL70_ML2_.jpg)

Quote from: Jo498 on September 21, 2022, 07:11:57 AM
I don't remember which cantatas and what CD that was; probably some grey issue, dubbed from LPs. Sound was not as good but that was not the main problem, more that the style worked in the more dramatic passions but not really in the cantatas.

I have not heard the mono recording of the Mozart Requiem but the stereo is also one of my favorite (good soloists, rather mediocre choir, unfortunately), admittedly the Mozart Requiem is not such a favorite of mine (except for the Introitus and Kyrie). I also have the 7 last words (this was an MCA twofer with the Mozart Requiem in the early 1990s or so) but it's been too long I listened to it (I prefer the piece in the orchestral or quartet version anyway).

I think that what happens for me in the Matthew Passion is that the old fashioned style is totally repellant for a lot of the time, but there are many long moments where the thing kind of really takes off, and the music making is so incandescent that I forgive and forget the way they're projecting their voices, the vibrato etc etc. Like in Mengelberg's Bach!

I didn't know he did two Mozart requiems - now I'm not sure which one I have. I'll check soon. Who knows? I may even start to like it.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71UWIURo+FL._SX450_.jpg)

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on September 21, 2022, 07:37:57 AM
Superb performance!
I was thinking about mentioning the box below. Great performance while the recording sound is a typical Soviet quality.


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51cUmHKtuCL._SX300_SY300_QL70_ML2_.jpg)

Does this have all the 1949 Chopin material? It was the centenary of Chopin's death and Sofro gave some really special concerts. There's some mazurkas, some nocturnes, the barcarolle, some waltzes, all of the op 28 preludes  and lots of other things.

I think Vinogradov's Schone Mullerin is mono.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gxz6bAmzvJ8&ab_channel=BESTCLASSICS

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on September 18, 2022, 02:55:37 PM
Yes they are great. I didn't know his mono-era recordings. I think the recording below (compilation?) is a killer. Warm and hip recording sound!



(https://angartwork.akamaized.net/webp/?id=136930176&size=296)

I must confess that I haven't listen to Segovia much because he was a pro-Nationalist/Franco during the Civil War.

Quote from: Mandryka on September 21, 2022, 08:14:31 AM
Does this have all the 1949 Chopin material? It was the centenary of Chopin's death and Sofro gave some really special concerts. There's some mazurkas, some nocturnes, the barcarolle, some waltzes, all of the op 28 preludes  and lots of other things.

Sorry, I don't know. The below are links to a discography and a review.


https://www.discogs.com/release/1448388-Vladimir-Sofronitzky-Scriabin-Chopin-Rachmaninoff-Schumann-Liszt-Historical-Russian-Archives-Vladimi

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/June09/Sofronitzky_brilliant8975.htm

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on September 21, 2022, 09:33:30 AM
I must confess that I haven't listen to Segovia much because he was a pro-Nationalist/Franco during the Civil War.

I wish you hadn't told me that, because I've been really enjoying that Tarrega and Albeniz CD.

Quote from: Mandryka on September 21, 2022, 01:24:15 PM
I wish you hadn't told me that, because I've been really enjoying that Tarrega and Albeniz CD.

My friend said the same thing at a sushi restaurant when I told him that what he was eating was eel.

(https://i.discogs.com/nxuMxH_TFWbUizCt4fbOfJxqCDVmVRYMlAXU5hCT6tw/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:400/w:400/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTU0OTc3/MzEtMTM5NDkxNTU2/Ni0zMDI5LmpwZWc.jpeg)

Recorded in mono in 1993.

(IMO the performance is not totally without interest because it is a sort of purification, simplification,zen-ification, of the music.)

The Young Julian Bream.



  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71D4A1W+vSL._SS500_.jpg)

Harold Samuel plays a lot of Bach, and it is worth a listen. If you're like me you'll be sucked in.

https://open.spotify.com/album/0zKLADzxXA26sK0fHcgVhq

Visionary performance. Especially I like the slightly decadent and funky feel of the Albeniz and Granados.


(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71l5MiFADaL._SX466_.jpg)

Quote from: Mandryka on September 28, 2022, 11:29:51 AMHarold Samuel plays a lot of Bach, and it is worth a listen. If you're like me you'll be sucked in.

https://open.spotify.com/album/0zKLADzxXA26sK0fHcgVhq

Yes rather vibrant and colorful music.

Shostakovich Symphony 10 (NYPO/Mitropolous)

Quote from: vandermolen on December 06, 2022, 06:59:53 AMShostakovich Symphony 10 (NYPO/Mitropolous)

Certainly I will check it out!

(http://russiancdshop.com/velke%20rcd/aqvr377-2.jpg)

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on December 06, 2022, 07:48:21 AMCertainly I will check it out!

It's terrific Manabu - a uniquely intense performance.

Quote from: vandermolen on December 06, 2022, 06:59:53 AMShostakovich Symphony 10 (NYPO/Mitropolous)

Very powerful and sharp performance. It doesn't sound like mono. It sounds like stereo. Is it because of the ferocity of performance?



(https://i.scdn.co/image/ab67616d0000b2739cfe4f8dbb6d1152eebe9260)

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on December 07, 2022, 12:06:16 PMVery powerful and sharp performance. It doesn't sound like mono. It sounds like stereo. Is it because of the ferocity of performance?



(https://i.scdn.co/image/ab67616d0000b2739cfe4f8dbb6d1152eebe9260)

Yes, I think that it's very special - a blistering account.

Granados: Danzas Espanolas. Luis Galve Raso. Powerful, and yet melancholic, performance. Beauty of the ambivalence.


(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-RXA1f3xwJ8o/UYOS5QhSN6I/AAAAAAAAcOk/1p9ywkpTaxs/s1600/LUIS+GALVE-CD-DANZAS+ESPA%C3%91OLAS+(GRANADOS)+2011_400x400.jpg)

A spellbinding performance of Bach's 5th Sonata for Violin and Piano. David Oistrakh is in top form but it is the mesmerising playing of his partner Lev Oborin that makes this recording so memorable.

Quote from: Irons on December 15, 2022, 02:18:28 AMA spellbinding performance of Bach's 5th Sonata for Violin and Piano. David Oistrakh is in top form but it is the mesmerising playing of his partner Lev Oborin that makes this recording so memorable.

I checked it on Youtube. Exceptional, surreal music.

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on December 17, 2022, 06:06:28 AMI checked it on Youtube. Exceptional, surreal music.

I thought you might and delighted you did.

Quote from: Mandryka on September 16, 2022, 08:28:41 AMI've not heard the Szell/Huberman for years, but I remember that the two spark it off very well, Furtwangler/Fischer Beethoven PC5 is a bit like that. Here's a list of this sort of thing that I made more than 10 years ago, when I was into that sort of thing more. Some of it may be stereo, I'm not sure. I think today I'd add more Mengelberg -- but, I don't want to think about it too much: been there, done that, and this list is the tee shirt. I'm too cool for 19th century concertos now .



Scherchen's Handel Concerti Grossi Op 6
Ervin Nyiregyhazi playing Liszt Legends
Ervin Nyiregyhazi playing Rachmaninov Symphony 2
Ervin Nyiregyhazi playing the threnodies from Liszt Aneees
Mengelberg's live Beethoven 6
Scherchen's Matthew Passion
Mengelberg's Matthew Passion
Mengelberg's Bach cantatas
Mengelberg's Brahms Violin Concerto
Mengelberg Brahms 1
Anything sung by Erb
Felix Prohaska Bach cantatas with Stich-Randall
Furtwangler's Beethoven 3
Pfitzner's Beethoven 3 and 6
Furtwangler's Beethoven 4
Furtwangler's Brahms 1
Furtwangler's Brahms 2
Furtwangler's Brahms 4
Furtwangler's Tristan (the one with the missing Act 1)
Furtwangler's Metamorphosen
Furtwangler's Gran Partita
Furtwangler's Bruckner 5
Furtwangler's Bruckner 7
Furtwangler's Bruckner 9
Furtwangler's Beethoven 9
Furtwangler playing the Grosse Fuge
Albert Coates playing the Jupiter Symphony
The last 40 minutes of Furtwangler's Matthew Passion
Richter's Christmas Oratorio
Richter's St John Passion
Knappertsbusch's Parsifal with Vickers
Furtwangler's Schubert 9
Furtwangler's Schubert 8
Jurgen Jurgen's Monteverdi Vespers
Mengelberg live Schubert 9
Casals prelude to Cello Suites 5 and 6
Tocanini's Missa Solemnis with Kipnis
Segovia playing the Bach Chaconne
Tureck playing the Goldbergs and Partitas on Great Pianists
The largo from Chopin sonata 3 by Rosenthal
Cortot playing Schumann's Etudes (1950s) and Davidsbundlertanze
Cortot playing Chopin Walzes, nocturnes, sonatas, preludes, etudes and everything else
Edwin Fischer playing the last half of Bk 2 of WTC
Edwin Fischer playing Beethoven Op 110
Casals live cello suite 3
Scherchen playing Haydn 88
Levy playing the big  Liszt sonata
Peter Pears singing the Britten Serenade
Ney/Boehm Beethoven PC5, final movement only
Fischer/Furtwangler Brahms PC2
Arrau playing Op 111 on the VAI DVD
The young Souzay singing Nacht und Traume
Hubermann playing the slow movement of the Beethoven Concerto
Feuermann plaing the Ghost sonata and the Haydn Concerto
Busch Bros playing the Bach double Violin Concerto
Szigetti playing the Bach chaconne
Schnabel in the largo of Mozart PC 27
Schnabel's Brahms Intermeszzi
Schorr singing Wotan in Walkure
Solti's Gotterdammerung
Walcha playing Bach's English Suites
Bruno Walter playing the Mozart Funeral March thing
Hotter/Moore Winterreise
Hotter Bach cantatas
Kipnis Brahms serious songs
When the anti aircraft guns fire in Landowska's Scarlatti

Mandryka, why don't you like the first half of Fischer WTC2? Just curious.

Two mono favourites:

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on February 13, 2023, 03:18:58 PMMandryka, why don't you like the first half of Fischer WTC2? Just curious.

Can't remember! That was a long time ago.

Furtwangler is a bit before my time record buying wise. However when I first heard his Eine Kleine Nachtmusik of all pieces! I knew what all the fuss is about.

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODQ5NTY1NC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1MzgxMjMwMTJ9)

Everything in this box, particularly Gran Partita and the Sinfonia Concertante for Violin, Viola and Orchestra

Greatest Sibelius 4th Symphony IMO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe8zb9H9KoY&ab_channel=SadanoriKobinata

This is Cortot playing Mendelssohn's Variations Serieuses in 1950 I think - I have it on Vol 23 of the Anniversary Edition. IT seems a minute longer than his other recordings on youtube. Some psychedelic hallucinatory playing towards the end.

Quote from: Mandryka on March 04, 2023, 09:53:09 AMhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe8zb9H9KoY&ab_channel=SadanoriKobinata

This is Cortot playing Mendelssohn's Variations Serieuses in 1950 I think - I have it on Vol 23 of the Anniversary Edition. IT seems a minute longer than his other recordings on youtube. Some psychedelic hallucinatory playing towards the end.

Good, if dark, performance. I'm more familiar with sunny interpretations with eighth notes arpeggios dancing.

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 04, 2023, 04:23:03 PMGood, if dark, performance. I'm more familiar with sunny interpretations with eighth notes arpeggios dancing.

Try Richter if you're feeling brave, it's darker still. It's a bit like a Russian tank rolling across a wildflower meadow in Spring.

Quote from: Mandryka on March 04, 2023, 06:56:30 PMTry Richter if you're feeling brave, it's darker still. It's a bit like a Russian tank rolling across a wildflower meadow in Spring.

 ;D

Overall, when I listen to Mendelssohn's piano works, I can understand that he admired JSB. I will check the Richter soon.

Carlo Zecchi. Velvety performance and the Jazz-age feeling.


(https://is3-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music115/v4/c7/8e/aa/c78eaab2-8612-35c4-6838-f0a1279c5622/5024709160242.jpg/632x632bb.webp)

IMO the greatest Chopin recording of all time


(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk0NDM0Mi4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1NTMwMTE2MjV9)

And there is this from Schnabel

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81m2MhVYSCL._SY355_.jpg)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODAwMTc2MC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0OTU3MTQyNDJ9)

Listening to the Grieg ballade on this this morning. Out of strength comes forth sweetness, Samson said, but with Joyce it's the precise inverse - out of sweetness comes forth strength!  If you don't know these recordings they're well worth a butchers, @Dry Brett Kavanaugh - at least her Columbias. I recall the Columbia Mozart sonatas are rather nice too.

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on December 12, 2022, 02:35:16 PMGranados: Danzas Espanolas. Luis Galve Raso. Powerful, and yet melancholic, performance. Beauty of the ambivalence.


(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-RXA1f3xwJ8o/UYOS5QhSN6I/AAAAAAAAcOk/1p9ywkpTaxs/s1600/LUIS+GALVE-CD-DANZAS+ESPA%C3%91OLAS+(GRANADOS)+2011_400x400.jpg)

Great find!

Bought this set based on @ritter post. Some mono and some stereo recordings. Exquisite and atmospheric performances!


(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51iYvZQ+E8L.jpg)

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on July 13, 2023, 09:19:26 PMBought this set based on @ritter post. Some mono and some stereo recordings. Exquisite and atmospheric performances!


(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51iYvZQ+E8L.jpg)

I haven't heard of those artists before now, but will make note of it!  :)

PD

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on July 13, 2023, 09:19:26 PMBought this set based on @ritter post. Some mono and some stereo recordings. Exquisite and atmospheric performances!


(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51iYvZQ+E8L.jpg)

Glad you enjoyed these performances. I've known them for ca. 45 years, and have always loved them.  :)

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 14, 2023, 03:11:30 AMI haven't heard of those artists before now, but will make note of it!  :)

PD

The only internationally known name (well, kinda) is that of Pedro de Freitas Branco, who has an almost legendary stature as a conductor in his native Portugal, but was also very admired in France and Spain. He was the brother of composer Luis de Freitas Branco.

Jesús Arambarri was a talented basque composer (there's a very worthwhile disc of his music on Naxos), but as a conductor I think his reputation was rather local. His Love the Magician (with mezzo Inés Rivadeneyra) is excellent.

I do not have much (none, actually) background information on the other conductor here, José María Franco Gil.

I love El Sombrero de Tres Picos by Jesús Arambarri/Madrid. It is mono and the music is picturesque.

Ataulfo Argenta possibly the most famous Iberian conductor. His bizarre death a great loss to music.

Quote from: Irons on July 21, 2023, 01:59:51 AMAtaulfo Argenta possibly the most famous Iberian conductor. His bizarre death a great loss to music.

His name doesn't ring a bell with me.  When was this recording made, Lol?

PD

Quote from: Irons on July 21, 2023, 01:59:51 AMAtaulfo Argenta possibly the most famous Iberian conductor. His bizarre death a great loss to music.

Found information on Ataúlfo Argenta. Interesting, thanks for the tip.

Toscanini and the NBC Orchestra performing the Manfred Symphony of Tchaikovsky on RCA:

Not to be forgotten: Tchaikovsky's Symphony #5 with Koussevitzky and the Boston Symphony:


The other movements are available, but you need to search.


The excerpt might be from this recording:

https://www.amazon.com/Tchaikovsky-Symphonies-Pathetique-Orchestra-Koussevitzky/dp/B00K0YYZ70/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_pdt_img_top?ie=UTF8 (https://www.amazon.com/Tchaikovsky-Symphonies-Pathetique-Orchestra-Koussevitzky/dp/B00K0YYZ70/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_pdt_img_top?ie=UTF8)

Quote from: AnotherSpin on July 21, 2023, 03:17:48 AMFound information on Ataúlfo Argenta. Interesting, thanks for the tip.

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 21, 2023, 02:34:47 AMHis name doesn't ring a bell with me.  When was this recording made, Lol?

PD

Early 1950's, PD. Argenta was later to make some classic stereo recordings with Decca before his untimely death.

I've been listening to the Naxos transfers of Tibault and Corot together, and sometimes a bit of Casals in the mix. Really impressive transfers which are, to use the dreaded word, a revelation.  Check the Kreutzer and you'll  agree I'm sure

Quote from: Mandryka on August 04, 2023, 04:21:12 AMI've been listening to the Naxos transfers of Tibault and Cortot together, and sometimes a bit of Casals in the mix. Really impressive transfers which are, to use the dreaded word, a revelation.  Check the Kreutzer and you'll  agree I'm sure

Are these new transfers?

PD

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 04, 2023, 04:53:33 AMAre these new transfers?

PD

They are 20 year old transfers, but new to me!

Quote from: Mandryka on August 04, 2023, 07:27:21 AMThey are 20 year old transfers, but new to me!

Pleased that you are enjoying them!  :) Naxos has done some amazing transfers over the years--particularly by Ward Marston.

PD

I have had Kempff's pre-war APR transfers of the Beethoven Piano Sonatas in my heavy rotation since they came out. Aside from one or two sonatas I prefer the performances on these to the complete mono or stereo cycle. I can't say the same about a lot of Kempff's other pre-war recordings. i.e., Brahms piano works I greatly prefer his later stereo DG performances.

Quote from: Mandryka on August 04, 2023, 04:21:12 AMI've been listening to the Naxos transfers of Tibault and Corot together, and sometimes a bit of Casals in the mix. Really impressive transfers which are, to use the dreaded word, a revelation.  Check the Kreutzer and you'll  agree I'm sure

Yes I like the Cortot albums! Sorry, violin is not my favorite instrument. I'm thinking about checking out Naxos series of Women At The Piano.

I'm not fond of mono recordings, but this one is an exception:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzkzMDI0MC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NjQ3OTQ3NDJ9)

Quote from: Mandryka on August 04, 2023, 04:21:12 AMI've been listening to the Naxos transfers of Tibault and Corot together, and sometimes a bit of Casals in the mix. Really impressive transfers which are, to use the dreaded word, a revelation.  Check the Kreutzer and you'll  agree I'm sure

Can these be streamed

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 05, 2023, 10:32:26 AMYes I like the Cortot albums! Sorry, violin is not my favorite instrument. I'm thinking about checking out Naxos series of Women At The Piano.

:)

pD

Part of a two volume set (I don't own the 2nd volume) on HMV Concert Classics licensed from Westminster.

 (https://i.imgur.com/cmzVEmu.jpg)

Three Partitas on a single LP is pushing the envelope. Possibly mono helps in this regard also the music not being over-dynamic. I am far from being an authority although enjoy the Partitas very much. Joerg Demus to my ears is perfection, less hectic then Glenn Gould who I usually listen.
I do not recall buying this LP but made a note of the cost £2. A bargain!

(https://cdn.naxos.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/8.111350.jpg)

I was totally enthralled when I first heard rendition of Le Rappel des oiseaux recorded by young Gilels. I don't think I heard a better version than this one.

Quote from: Symphonic Addict on August 05, 2023, 10:37:11 AMI'm not fond of mono recordings, but this one is an exception:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzkzMDI0MC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NjQ3OTQ3NDJ9)

Yes, it's very special Cesar!

Quote from: Irons on August 11, 2023, 12:02:52 AMPart of a two volume set (I don't own the 2nd volume) on HMV Concert Classics licensed from Westminster.

 (https://i.imgur.com/cmzVEmu.jpg)

Three Partitas on a single LP is pushing the envelope. Possibly mono helps in this regard also the music not being over-dynamic. I am far from being an authority although enjoy the Partitas very much. Joerg Demus to my ears is perfection, less hectic then Glenn Gould who I usually listen.
I do not recall buying this LP but made a note of the cost £2. A bargain!

HMV Concert Classics introduced me to some great music:

Quote from: Irons on August 11, 2023, 12:02:52 AMPart of a two volume set (I don't own the 2nd volume) on HMV Concert Classics licensed from Westminster.

 (https://i.imgur.com/cmzVEmu.jpg)

Three Partitas on a single LP is pushing the envelope. Possibly mono helps in this regard also the music not being over-dynamic. I am far from being an authority although enjoy the Partitas very much. Joerg Demus to my ears is perfection, less hectic then Glenn Gould who I usually listen.
I do not recall buying this LP but made a note of the cost £2. A bargain!

Nice album. His stereo Partitas sounds good as well, imo.


(https://cdn.albumoftheyear.org/album/433687-partitas-bwv-825-830-goldberg-variations-bwv-988.jpg)

Quote from: Jo498 on September 12, 2022, 03:11:26 AMI have been told that especially acoustic recordings from before 1928 (or whenever electrical recordings started) would sound best on an acoustical gramophone but I don't think I have ever heard such a thing.
Anyway, I thought the question referred mostly to "Hifi mono" from the late 1940s or so. And to the sound, not that one likes certain historical recordings immensely in spite of the sound.

The "Prima Voce" CD sublabel from Nimbus "specializes in the transfer of vocal records on 78 rpm discs dating from 1900. The method of transfer involves the use of thorn needles and a giant acoustic horn on a carefully restored gramophone.  No electronic processing is used: instead, the gramophone is placed in a living room environment and recorded ambisonically... ."

I have no expertise on how successful Nimbus's transfers are (reviews are mixed); but at least the label deserves credit for attempting a "real world" recreation. 

Quote from: geralmar on October 02, 2023, 11:35:03 PMThe "Prima Voce" CD sublabel from Nimbus "specializes in the transfer of vocal records on 78 rpm discs dating from 1900. The method of transfer involves the use of thorn needles and a giant acoustic horn on a carefully restored gramophone.  No electronic processing is used: instead, the gramophone is placed in a living room environment and recorded ambisonically... ."

I have no expertise on how successful Nimbus's transfers are (reviews are mixed); but at least the label deserves credit for attempting a "real world" recreation. 

Wow. I'm checking out Eide Norena release on Spotify and it sounds really good (for its age)! The great thing about this method is how it adds pseudo-stereophony. Sounds good on both speakers and headphones. I have been testing adding pseudo-stereophony on mono recordings in Audacity (because listening to true mono on headphones makes the sound unnaturally "death" and pseudostereo can make the sound more natural and "alive"). Recording the mono sound in a room with stereo mics is a one way to achieve pseudostereo, but the additional reverberation shouldn't be too much. In the case of acoustic recordings the reverberation level is very low, so this is beneficial.

Quote from: geralmar on October 02, 2023, 11:35:03 PMThe "Prima Voce" CD sublabel from Nimbus "specializes in the transfer of vocal records on 78 rpm discs dating from 1900. The method of transfer involves the use of thorn needles and a giant acoustic horn on a carefully restored gramophone.  No electronic processing is used: instead, the gramophone is placed in a living room environment and recorded ambisonically... ."

I have no expertise on how successful Nimbus's transfers are (reviews are mixed); but at least the label deserves credit for attempting a "real world" recreation. 

I have a bunch of those which I purchased ages ago.  It's fun to hear those early operatic recordings.

As an aside, years ago I went to a big outdoor antique show.  One of the vendors there was selling old gramophones.  I was quite impressed at how good of a sound that one could get from them (He was playing various 78's on them.).  For a while I was contemplating on purchasing one.

PD

I might have offered these earlier, but since the topic is back:

Beethoven Symphony #7

and

Tchaikovsky Manfred Symphony Arturo Toscanini and the NBC Orchestra


Both on RCA records:







The Manfred Symphony was cut to fit onto the record.  Nevertheless, a slam-dunk performance!


Also highly recommended, again from RCA:

Brahms Symphony #4

Tchaikovsky Symphony #5  Serge Koussevitzky and the Boston Symphony Orchestra


The Brahms is scattered over 4 different YouTube screens:

Quote from: Cato on October 03, 2023, 05:47:13 AMAlso highly recommended, again from RCA:

Brahms Symphony #4



The Brahms is scattered over 4 different YouTube screens:

Here is a better source - with better quality - for the Koussevitzky/Boston Symphony Orchestra performance of the Brahms work:

https://archive.org/details/BrahmsSymphonyNo.4-koussevitzky/01.I.AllegroNonTroppo.mp3 (https://archive.org/details/BrahmsSymphonyNo.4-koussevitzky/01.I.AllegroNonTroppo.mp3)

Thanks for the posts ladies and gents.  Btw, the discussion regarding the advantages of monaural recordings is below.


https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,30881.msg1371678.html#msg1371678

Klemperer's Brandenburg two LP set was originally released in both mono and stereo. However, the producer Walter Legge famously disliked stereo and resisted the format on his (British) Columbia label. By 1961 he had no choice as market forces dictated a stereo issue alongside mono but his heart was not in it. The practice at the time was for two recording teams, one mono, one stereo. For Legge mono recordings always took precedence. Columbia 33CX are amongst the finest mono recordings available.

(https://i.imgur.com/iMlRoo2.jpg)

Klemperer's Brandenburg Concertos are not 'big band' or lush like for instance Karajan. In fact not that far from current performing practice. Typically slow but amazing clarity and any preconceived criticism is soon dispelled. Slightly disappointed with No.6 but enjoyed No.1 & 2 enormously.
Some of the best musicians of their generation feature -
Hugh Bean. Violin.
Cech James. Bassoon.
Alan Civil, Andrew Woodburn. Horns.
Adolf Scherbaum. Trumpet.
George Malcolm. Harpsichord Continuo.
Sidney Sutcliffe, Stanley Smith, Peter Newbury. Oboes.

Quote from: Irons on November 02, 2023, 03:00:45 PMKlemperer's Brandenburg Concertos are not 'big band' or lush like for instance Karajan. In fact not that far from current performing practice. Typically slow but amazing clarity and any preconceived criticism is soon dispelled. Slightly disappointed with No.6 but enjoyed No.1 & 2 enormously.
Some of the best musicians of their generation feature -
Hugh Bean. Violin.
Cech James. Bassoon.
Alan Civil, Andrew Woodburn. Horns.
Adolf Scherbaum. Trumpet.
George Malcolm. Harpsichord Continuo.
Sidney Sutcliffe, Stanley Smith, Peter Newbury. Oboes.

Yes, far more modern than their reputation.

With one exception: You know, Malcolm was told just to realize the continuo with simple chords. In another recording led by Malcolm himself one can hear how he wanted the continuo to be realized.

Quote from: Irons on November 02, 2023, 03:00:45 PMKlemperer's Brandenburg two LP set was originally released in both mono and stereo. However, the producer Walter Legge famously disliked stereo and resisted the format on his (British) Columbia label. By 1961 he had no choice as market forces dictated a stereo issue alongside mono but his heart was not in it. The practice at the time was for two recording teams, one mono, one stereo. For Legge mono recordings always took precedence. Columbia 33CX are amongst the finest mono recordings available.

(https://i.imgur.com/iMlRoo2.jpg)

Klemperer's Brandenburg Concertos are not 'big band' or lush like for instance Karajan. In fact not that far from current performing practice. Typically slow but amazing clarity and any preconceived criticism is soon dispelled. Slightly disappointed with No.6 but enjoyed No.1 & 2 enormously.
Some of the best musicians of their generation feature -
Hugh Bean. Violin.
Cech James. Bassoon.
Alan Civil, Andrew Woodburn. Horns.
Adolf Scherbaum. Trumpet.
George Malcolm. Harpsichord Continuo.
Sidney Sutcliffe, Stanley Smith, Peter Newbury. Oboes.

I didn't know that about Legge and mono recordings.  Quite interesting!  Thank you for sharing that info.  :)

PD

Quote from: premont on November 02, 2023, 03:29:10 PMYes, far more modern than their reputation.

With one exception: You know, Malcolm was told just to realize the continuo with simple chords. In another recording led by Malcolm himself one can hear how he wanted the continuo to be realized.

Interesting. It is something that under Klemperer's baton you can actually hear harpsichord continuo.

With all Klemperer recordings balance favours winds over strings. For the Brandenburg Concertos this works out very well.

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 02, 2023, 05:50:40 PMI didn't know that about Legge and mono recordings.  Quite interesting!  Thank you for sharing that info.  :)

PD

An interesting discussion on the subject here   https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=5485.0

Quote from: Irons on November 03, 2023, 07:38:30 AMAn interesting discussion on the subject here   https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=5485.0

Interesting discussion. Thank you for the post.

Talking about Walter Legge, recently I listened to this 1957 stereo recording produced by him. While the performance is excellent, I think the sound quality is average, if not poor. I imagine his assistant may have worked on this stereo recording. I like the stereo sound of Mercury Living Presence and RCA Living Stereo. Probably are they the first companies who successfully explored the merits of stereo sound? As for popular music, I think the Beatles' Revolver and Sgt Peppers began the sophisticated stereo sound.



(https://is1-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music/v4/c1/2e/75/c12e75b7-5445-4340-7394-019f427d51b9/094637734452.jpg/632x632bb.webp)

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on November 13, 2023, 03:02:33 PMTalking about Walter Legge, recently I listened to this 1957 stereo recording produced by him. While the performance is excellent, I think the sound quality is average, if not poor. I imagine his assistant may have worked on this stereo recording. I like the stereo sound of Mercury Living Presence and RCA Living Stereo. Probably are they the first companies who successfully explored the merits of stereo sound? As for popular music, I think the Beatles' Revolver and Sgt Peppers began the sophisticated stereo sound.



(https://is1-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music/v4/c1/2e/75/c12e75b7-5445-4340-7394-019f427d51b9/094637734452.jpg/632x632bb.webp)

Warner Classics are far from the first to fall into the trap in assuming that stereo always superior to mono. For marketing purposes it probably is as most of the buying public think the same way.

(https://i.imgur.com/BF85SmW.jpg)

The Hindemith recordings are a case in point. Volume 1 recorded November 1956 when Legge was in full control before purely technical and commercial developments in the classical industry began to dictate the way forward. Legge queried the wisdom of stereo separating out strands which he and his engineers had taken such pains to integrate into the mono sound picture. Stereo was not only an afterthought for him but he actively discouraged it. A stubborn man.

At the same time across the Atlantic two brilliant sound engineers, Lewis Layton at RCA and Bob Fine at Mercury embraced the stereo format, realizing the protentional. Between them they made some of the finest recordings which stand up to this day.       

I don't think the choice between mono and stereo is that simple. For polyphonic music (particularly renaissance- and baroque music) stereo may be preferable because it enables one to separate the individual voices better.

Stereo may also be preferable for organ music because it conveys a better picture of the acoustics of the venue. This matters because organs are closely connected acoustically to the room they are built for.

For piano solo and music with the main emphasis upon harmonies (classical and romantic music) mono may maybe be better to create an integrated soundpicture of the music. 

Quote from: premont on November 16, 2023, 08:19:17 AMI don't think the choice between mono and stereo is that simple. For polyphonic music (particularly renaissance- and baroque music) stereo may be preferable because it enables one to separate the individual voices better.

Stereo may also be preferable for organ music because it conveys a better picture of the acoustics of the venue. This matters because organs are closely connected acoustically to the room they are built for.

For piano solo and music with the main emphasis upon harmonies (classical and romantic music) mono may maybe be better to create an integrated soundpicture of the music. 

I think of antiphonal works (Gabrieli of course), for which (I have read) musicians were placed in various spots throughout a cathedral.

Stereo (Surround Sound?) would seem fine for such works.

Quote from: Cato on November 16, 2023, 08:59:48 AMI think of antiphonal works (Gabrieli of course), for which (I have read) musicians were placed in various spots throughout a cathedral.

Stereo (Surround Sound?) would seem fine for such works.

Yes that's an obvious example. But it holds true for much more Early music. In JS Bach's concerto for two violins BWV 1043 e.g. it may be difficult to tell the two soloists from each other if one can't do it by means of their location in the sound stage.

Quote from: premont on November 16, 2023, 09:35:14 AMYes that's an obvious example. But it holds true for much more Early music. In JS Bach's concerto for two violins BWV 1043 e.g. it may be difficult to tell the two soloists from each other if one can't do it by means of their location in the sound stage.

This is true. Thinking that this very morning reading "Listening Now" thread issues of Concerto for Two Pianos. On the other hand I prefer string quartet recordings in mono as they sound more natural.

A favourite for many years. Issued in the UK in the mid 1960's on the cheap as chips Music For Pleasure label.

(https://i.imgur.com/yR2LR0r.jpg)

Not before or since came across Vladimir Golschmann and his Orchestra but this is impressive with great musicality.

Originally issued in the US on Capitol, no idea when - around mid 1950's I would guess.

Quote from: Irons on November 16, 2023, 01:18:53 PMOn the other hand I prefer string quartet recordings in mono as they sound more natural.

Agree very much. String quartets are to a large extent classical or romantic music.

Quote from: premont on November 16, 2023, 08:19:17 AMFor piano solo and music with the main emphasis upon harmonies (classical and romantic music) mono may maybe be better to create an integrated soundpicture of the music. 

Quote from: Irons on November 16, 2023, 01:34:17 PMNot before or since came across Vladimir Golschmann and his Orchestra but this is impressive with great musicality.

He was the conductor of the studio recordings of some of Glenn Goulds Bach piano concertos.

This has likely displaced Casals as my favorite performance of his arrangement.

Quote from: Atriod on November 16, 2023, 05:50:33 PM

This has likely displaced Casals as my favorite performance of his arrangement.

Oh, you have brought back so many memories! Emmanuel Feuermann!  He was a legend: died around age 40, but had played with Artur Rubinstein and Jascha Heifetz (e.g. the above with Eugene Ormandy conducting The Philadelphia Orchestra.

Some restored CD's are available ( a company called "Biddulph" (Sic!) was recommended), but can be expensive.  YouTube is a great boon in such cases.

Enjoying the album, especially Szymanowski No. 4. Dynamic sound.


(https://is1-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music/4f/50/89/mzi.esmepabz.jpg/632x632bf.webp)

Quote from: premont on November 16, 2023, 08:19:17 AMI don't think the choice between mono and stereo is that simple. For polyphonic music (particularly renaissance- and baroque music) stereo may be preferable because it enables one to separate the individual voices better.

Stereo may also be preferable for organ music because it conveys a better picture of the acoustics of the venue. This matters because organs are closely connected acoustically to the room they are built for.

For piano solo and music with the main emphasis upon harmonies (classical and romantic music) mono may maybe be better to create an integrated soundpicture of the music. 

I disagree completely. Irrespective of era and genre, stereo makes for a far more exciting and satisfying listening experience than mono. After all, there is a reason why stereo superseded mono (Walter Legge's idiosyncrasies notwithstanding).

With all due respect, to claim that the mono sound is better than the stereo one for a Haydn string quartet (or a Mozart piano concerto, a Beethoven piano trio, a Chopin ballade, a Brahms sextet, a Mahler synphony etc) is nonsense. In all these works, the polyphony of individual voivces is just as esential as in any Renaissance or Baroque piece.

Saying that mono is better than stereo is like saying that a tube, black-and-white TV set is better than a HD LED colour one.

Quote from: Florestan on November 19, 2023, 12:07:12 AMI disagree completely. Irrespective of era and genre, stereo makes for a far more exciting and satisfying listening experience than mono. After all, there is a reason why stereo superseded mono (Walter Legge's idiosyncrasies notwithstanding).

With all due respect, to claim that the mono sound is better than the stereo one for a Haydn string quartet (or a Mozart piano concerto, a Beethoven piano trio, a Chopin ballade, a Brahms sextet, a Mahler synphony etc) is nonsense. In all these works, the polyphony of individual voivces is just as esential as in any Renaissance or Baroque piece.

Saying that mono is better than stereo is like saying that a tube, black-and-white TV set is better than a HD LED colour one.

Your argument holds true if comparing a modern digital stereo recording compared to a 1950's vintage mono analogue recording, i.e. your TV example. But we are not doing that. Some of us and I am sure you are one, wish to hear great artists and recordings of the past in the best sound possible. It is the case that very often the best way to hear this music is the way intended, mono sound. Decca tried and failed to market great mono recordings in "electrically processed stereo" the results were a disaster. I do not wish to hear a pianist of today in mono but Rubinstein I might. 

Quote from: Irons on November 19, 2023, 12:45:49 AMYour argument holds true if comparing a modern digital stereo recording compared to a 1950's vintage mono analogue recording, i.e. your TV example. But we are not doing that. Some of us and I am sure you are one, wish to hear great artists and recordings of the past in the best sound possible. It is the case that very often the best way to hear this music is the way intended, mono sound. Decca tried and failed to market great mono recordings in "electrically processed stereo" the results were a disaster. I do not wish to hear a pianist of today in mono but Rubinstein I might. 

I don't disagree with that. For many great musicians of the past, mono is indeed the only way to hear them, and I have no problem with that. All I'm saying is that mono is an obsolete technology which shows its age and limitations and which is definitely not better than stereo, no matter what music is recorded or by whom. And I'm talking about genuine stereo, not about failed attempts at turning mono into pseudo-stereo. To stick with your example, it's great to hear Rubinstein playing Chopin in mono but it's greater still to hear him playing Chopin in stereo.

from Bistritz vaults, deep beneath the earth

Quote from: Irons on November 19, 2023, 12:45:49 AMYour argument holds true if comparing a modern digital stereo recording compared to a 1950's vintage mono analogue recording, i.e. your TV example. But we are not doing that. Some of us and I am sure you are one, wish to hear great artists and recordings of the past in the best sound possible. It is the case that very often the best way to hear this music is the way intended, mono sound. Decca tried and failed to market great mono recordings in "electrically processed stereo" the results were a disaster. I do not wish to hear a pianist of today in mono but Rubinstein I might. 

You're really muddying the waters bring up "electronically processed stereo."

Old mono recordings can have the advantage that the technology didn't allow engineers much leeway to ruin the recording by ham-handed manipulation. This is how the Budapest Quartet was recorded (for their Beethoven cycle I believe).

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSJ98uionWL8eMmoVKDHIsMyRG4CwtWfzFQdOHgBkyJwCL-gTC-VOl0KqoHtSDOweBjKfE&usqp=CAU)

It is a wonderful document of their performance. But if you replaced that single archaic microphone with a stereo x-y pair (and suitable rearrangement of the performers) you would get something which, speaking for myself, sounds truer to the performance.

Of course it is possible to make horrible recordings. I generally don't like modern recordings made with a forest of microphones. But I will always find competently engineered stereo preferable to mono.

Quote from: premont on November 16, 2023, 08:19:17 AMFor piano solo and music with the main emphasis upon harmonies (classical and romantic music) mono may maybe be better to create an integrated soundpicture of the music. 

Creating an integrated sound picture? Isn't that what the brain is for? :)

Quote from: Spotted Horses on November 19, 2023, 08:22:48 AMYou're really muddying the waters bring up "electronically processed stereo."

Old mono recordings can have the advantage that the technology didn't allow engineers much leeway to ruin the recording by ham-handed manipulation. This is how the Budapest Quartet was recorded (for their Beethoven cycle I believe).

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSJ98uionWL8eMmoVKDHIsMyRG4CwtWfzFQdOHgBkyJwCL-gTC-VOl0KqoHtSDOweBjKfE&usqp=CAU)

It is a wonderful document of their performance. But if you replaced that single archaic microphone with a stereo x-y pair (and suitable rearrangement of the performers) you would get something which, speaking for myself, sounds truer to the performance.

Of course it is possible to make horrible recordings. I generally don't like modern recordings made with a forest of microphones. But I will always find competently engineered stereo preferable to mono.

Your example is a good one. The Budapest Quartet were to make a second (third?) recording of Beethoven Quartets in stereo. The general consensus is that the performances are inferior to the mono set of the early 1950's. So what does one do? Performance or sonics, you can't have both. You make a point "if" stereo technology available in 1951 the recordings would be superior, I agree. That is a pretty big if though.

 

 

 

Quote from: Irons on November 20, 2023, 12:10:36 AMYour example is a good one. The Budapest Quartet were to make a second (third?) recording of Beethoven Quartets in stereo. The general consensus is that the performances are inferior to the mono set of the early 1950's. So what does one do? Performance or sonics, you can't have both. You make a point "if" stereo technology available in 1951 the recordings would be superior, I agree. That is a pretty big if though

Based on very sparse listening, I also think the mono set is better, not because it's mono, I think.

There is another effect, which is that the producers and performers were aware of the limitations of the technology and modified their performance, sometimes in ways which I find beneficial. Nowadays, it seems like producing the widest possible dynamic range is an explicit goal in recordings. In some recordings, if I set the volume so that climaxes are below the pain threshold the quietest passages can be basically inaudible to me. I am literally sitting there asking myself, "have the started playing yet?" In the old recordings producers would not allow the music to disappear into the tape hiss, and there was a limit to how quiet a pianissimo could be. I'm thinking here of the second movement in Beethoven's string quartet No 1, where the Budapest performance is utterly captivating because the statement of the music is more full-throated than you would hear on a modern recording. And I am reluctant to any recording of Vaughan-Williams Symphony No 6 recorded after 1960.

Quote from: Spotted Horses on November 20, 2023, 06:11:15 AMBased on very sparse listening, I also think the mono set is better, not because it's mono, I think.

There is another effect, which is that the producers and performers were aware of the limitations of the technology and modified their performance, sometimes in ways which I find beneficial. Nowadays, it seems like producing the widest possible dynamic range is an explicit goal in recordings. In some recordings, if I set the volume so that climaxes are below the pain threshold the quietest passages can be basically inaudible to me. I am literally sitting there asking myself, "have the started playing yet?" In the old recordings producers would not allow the music to disappear into the tape hiss, and there was a limit to how quiet a pianissimo could be. I'm thinking here of the second movement in Beethoven's string quartet No 1, where the Budapest performance is utterly captivating because the statement of the music is more full-throated than you would hear on a modern recording. And I am reluctant to any recording of Vaughan-Williams Symphony No 6 recorded after 1960.

Agreed. I am not arguing mono to be superior to stereo, that would be silly. The point of this thread to be mono recordings should not be dismissed because they are mono! There are many recordings by great artists in their prime in fabulous sound that due to vintage happen to be in mono sound. There is a point around the late 1950's with stereo in it's infancy where, RCA and Mercury excluded, mono format to be superior to stereo. I recall early digital to be awful, so awful, it took twenty years for me to come around to the fact that digital had potential to be good. New technology takes time, it is not instant.   

Quote from: Irons on November 16, 2023, 02:04:17 AMWarner Classics are far from the first to fall into the trap in assuming that stereo always superior to mono. For marketing purposes it probably is as most of the buying public think the same way.

(https://i.imgur.com/BF85SmW.jpg)

The Hindemith recordings are a case in point. Volume 1 recorded November 1956 when Legge was in full control before purely technical and commercial developments in the classical industry began to dictate the way forward. Legge queried the wisdom of stereo separating out strands which he and his engineers had taken such pains to integrate into the mono sound picture. Stereo was not only an afterthought for him but he actively discouraged it. A stubborn man.

At the same time across the Atlantic two brilliant sound engineers, Lewis Layton at RCA and Bob Fine at Mercury embraced the stereo format, realizing the protentional. Between them they made some of the finest recordings which stand up to this day.       

Irons, thank you for the names of the RCA and Mercury engineers. For those who are interested, some relevant articles/discussions are below.



Lewis Layton at RCA.

https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/music-reviews/living-stereo-lewis-layton/


Bob Fine at Mercury

https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/music-reviews/bob-fine-hdtt/

https://www.preservationsound.com/2013/11/bob-fines-recording-truck-1951-1966/

https://tapeop.com/tutorials/90/wilma-cozart-fine-c-robert-fine/

Quote from: Spotted Horses on November 19, 2023, 08:24:27 AMCreating an integrated sound picture? Isn't that what the brain is for? :)

Yes, but the brain may have a hard time in the case of much mixing or microphones which are placed too close to the musical instrument(s). Both situations are frequently met in stereo recordings.

The cover says mono, but some of the works are in stereo sound. Did the producer think that a mono recording would appear to be more valuable and sell more? Overall, both the stereo and mono tracks sound wonderful. I just don't like the cover with the tilted original cover.


(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91JEWX3M2qL._UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg)

Quote from: Spotted Horses on November 20, 2023, 06:11:15 AMNowadays, it seems like producing the widest possible dynamic range is an explicit goal in recordings. In some recordings, if I set the volume so that climaxes are below the pain threshold the quietest passages can be basically inaudible to me. I am literally sitting there asking myself, "have the started playing yet?" In the old recordings producers would not allow the music to disappear into the tape hiss, and there was a limit to how quiet a pianissimo could be.

I agree, I'm not a fan of the excessive dynamic contrasts I hear in many modern recordings.

Personally I prefer when composers use dynamic contrast less in general but I digress.

Quote from: Spotted Horses on November 20, 2023, 06:11:15 AMNowadays, it seems like producing the widest possible dynamic range is an explicit goal in recordings.

I absolutely love massive dynamic range. With the weak Yen/strong USD I've been buying tons of symphony recordings from Japan on Exton, Fontec, Denon, etc and the dynamic range on some of these recordings is just bone crushing. Like DR numbers as high as 20 in some movements. I wrongly put these down to "audiophile music," the Japanese have recorded some incredible interpretations and seem to have a real love of romantic era music.

Dynamic range is emotion, Inbal's Mahler cycle on Exton is now up there with my absolute favorites, aside from his hyper romantic approach to Mahler the dynamic range takes these recordings to another level. I was just listening to Battistoni conduct Tchaikovsky Symphony 5 and I never heard a more moving account of that symphony (Eschenbach gets close) and the dynamic range definitely played a part along with Battistoni's very passionate interpretation. Danielle Gatti's modern day Mravinsky style interpretations of 4-6 easily go to head to head with Mravinsky, it would have been a real shame if they reduced the dynamic range on these.

For another extreme I was listening to Monteux's 1930s recording of Symphonie Fantastique and the dynamic range is so limited that it's just not that enjoyable though you can sort of make out that it's a fine performance ().

Quote from: Atriod on November 20, 2023, 05:18:53 PMDynamic range is emotion

Maybe, but if a recording forces you to adjust the volume every two minutes or so, the only emotion it gives you is frustration, or anger, or maybe both --- and I believe this is what Spotted Horses had in mind.

Quote from: premont on November 20, 2023, 09:47:07 AMYes, but the brain may have a hard time in the case of much mixing or microphones which are placed too close to the musical instrument(s). Both situations are frequently met in stereo recordings.

I don't disagree with that. These covers seem to typify the DG approach in the late analog and early digital era. A string quartet with a microphone closely covering each instrument, a small orchestra with  microphones plopped right in front of string players. 

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk1Mzk3OC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NjQ3OTU5MTl9)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81OuoFWHVaL._SL1200_.jpg)

On the other had, the Barbirolli session at Kingsway hall isn't exactly purist, but a reasonably small array of microphones covering the various sections.

(I assume with 100% certainty that these microphone setups were what were actually used, record labels used to keep their technique as a closely guarded secret.)

But I would say the virtue you allude to is minimal miking vs multichannel taken to the limit, rather than mono vs stereo.

Quote from: Florestan on November 21, 2023, 01:24:38 AMMaybe, but if a recording forces you to adjust the volume every two minutes or so, the only emotion it gives you is frustration, or anger, or maybe both --- and I believe this is what Spotted Horses had in mind.

How do you adjust the volume at a concert? If I'm going to be doing eyes closed, focused listening I always use a digital SPL meter to make sure I'm not listening at unsafe levels. Big dynamic bursts or loudness at these levels for short moments is not unsafe.

Quote from: Atriod on November 21, 2023, 04:55:24 AMHow do you adjust the volume at a concert? If I'm going to be doing eyes closed, focused listening I always use a digital SPL meter to make sure I'm not listening at unsafe levels. Big dynamic bursts or loudness at these levels for short moments is not unsafe.

That's my point. I don't take for granted that performers create the same performance at a concert and in a recording session. Sometimes I hear an "audiophile" recording and it seems obvious to me that if the music was played like that from a concert stage no one would hear anything. On the other hand, Mercury Living Presence advertised that no dynamic compression was used, but they used a small stable of conductors who were educated by the producers that music softer than a certain level would simply not be audible on tape. They did not do gain riding because the conductors knew to create a suitable performance.

Quote from: Atriod on November 21, 2023, 04:55:24 AMHow do you adjust the volume at a concert?

We are discussing recordings here, not live concerts. How often does it happen in a live concert that the loudest passages are beyond the pain threshold whereas the quietest ones are basically inaudible --- which is what Spotted Horses talked about?

Quote from: Atriod on November 20, 2023, 05:18:53 PMI absolutely love massive dynamic range. With the weak Yen/strong USD I've been buying tons of symphony recordings from Japan on Exton, Fontec, Denon, etc and the dynamic range on some of these recordings is just bone crushing. Like DR numbers as high as 20 in some movements. I wrongly put these down to "audiophile music," the Japanese have recorded some incredible interpretations and seem to have a real love of romantic era music.

Dynamic range is emotion, Inbal's Mahler cycle on Exton is now up there with my absolute favorites, aside from his hyper romantic approach to Mahler the dynamic range takes these recordings to another level. I was just listening to Battistoni conduct Tchaikovsky Symphony 5 and I never heard a more moving account of that symphony (Eschenbach gets close) and the dynamic range definitely played a part along with Battistoni's very passionate interpretation. Danielle Gatti's modern day Mravinsky style interpretations of 4-6 easily go to head to head with Mravinsky, it would have been a real shame if they reduced the dynamic range on these.

For another extreme I was listening to Monteux's 1930s recording of Symphonie Fantastique and the dynamic range is so limited that it's just not that enjoyable though you can sort of make out that it's a fine performance (

).

Interesting that you mentioned Denon as the few CDs that I have purchased of theirs, I found the dynamics were compressed.  I believe that these were ones from either the late '80's or early '90's?  I'd have to dig around.  I stopped buying them.   :(

When are yours from Atriod?

PD

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 21, 2023, 06:35:27 AMInteresting that you mentioned Denon as the few CDs that I have purchased of theirs, I found the dynamics were compressed.  I believe that these were ones from either the late '80's or early '90's?  I'd have to dig around.  I stopped buying them.   :(

When are yours from Atriod?

PD

FWIW, I have a few Denon recordings, mostly chamber music from the 80's, and I thought they were a bit better than average in terms of sound (not particularly compressed). Then the label more-or-less fell off the radar.

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on November 20, 2023, 03:20:40 PMThe cover says mono, but some of the works are in stereo sound. Did the producer think that a mono recording would appear to be more valuable and sell more? Overall, both the stereo and mono tracks sound wonderful. I just don't like the cover with the tilted original cover.


(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91JEWX3M2qL._UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg)

Stuff from 3 LPs on one CD. DG LP covers at that time had "Stereo" in red in that little box that says "mono" because it was still special. The stupid CD reissue producer not only opted for the least interesting cover but replaced the stereo with mono because the pieces taken from different LPs are mono.

(https://i.discogs.com/c-BX0jNt-xHg65CDPbLuhhOFnDuSRmrsuk-qZSeQoRw/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTczNzM0/NTUtMTQ0MTEzMDUx/NC05MTQ3LmpwZWc.jpeg)

(https://i.discogs.com/p8yaeA3SZDtOezZ7_d4pHyzxq2eYPYpCeo4uwxNSSvc/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:588/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTE1MDA5/ODE2LTE1ODU0NjIy/NjEtODI3Mi5qcGVn.jpeg)
(https://i.discogs.com/dwkww6-0JCIH__XTVwR7bNoNVclekTAvrSr2lcEkq9Q/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:590/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTEyMTM1/MzAxLTE2MDY2Njc3/MzItMjc0Mi5qcGVn.jpeg)
(https://i.discogs.com/AH4Vp_jckT5AFdmbsLWYFzhHmKYZmRoMpqrrKr7gaW8/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:578/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTE3Njk5/MDUtMTYxODI1NDE4/MC0yMDQ1LmpwZWc.jpeg)

Quote from: Spotted Horses on November 21, 2023, 05:18:06 AMThat's my point. I don't take for granted that performers create the same performance at a concert and in a recording session. Sometimes I hear an "audiophile" recording and it seems obvious to me that if the music was played like that from a concert stage no one would hear anything. On the other hand, Mercury Living Presence advertised that no dynamic compression was used, but they used a small stable of conductors who were educated by the producers that music softer than a certain level would simply not be audible on tape. They did not do gain riding because the conductors knew to create a suitable performance.

What I hear on these slightly more dynamic recordings sounds pretty close to what I've heard live in Boston, NY, Vienna, Liverpool or Singapore with a variety of conductors.

I don't hear anything special about Mercury recordings, the dynamic range on them is fairly typical of classical recordings including great ones from Decca or RCA Living Stereo. I don't have the MLP boxes ripped at this house but here is Byron Janis in Rachmaninoff's two middle concerti.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: Byron Janis / Piano Concertos Nos. 2, 3 / Preludes (SACD)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR         Peak         RMS     Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR13       0.00 dB   -18.71 dB     14:48 01-Piano Concerto No. 3 in D minor, Op. 30: I. Allegro ma non troppo
DR13       0.00 dB   -18.76 dB     10:08 02-Piano Concerto No. 3 in D minor, Op. 30: II. Intermezzo. Adagio
DR12       0.00 dB   -16.31 dB     12:50 03-Piano Concerto No. 3 in D minor, Op. 30: III. Finale. Alla breve
DR11       0.00 dB   -15.99 dB     10:15 04-Piano Concerto No. 2 in C minor, Op. 18: I. Moderato
DR14       0.00 dB   -21.72 dB      9:55 05-Piano Concerto No. 2 in C minor, Op. 18: II. Adagio sostenuto
DR13       0.00 dB   -18.12 dB     10:43 06-Piano Concerto No. 2 in C minor, Op. 18: III. Allegro scherzando
DR13      -5.11 dB   -23.73 dB      2:50 07-Prelude in E-flat major, Op. 23 No. 6
DR13      -1.27 dB   -20.41 dB      3:51 08-Prelude in C-sharp minor, Op. 3 No. 2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks:  8
Official DR value: DR13

Samplerate:        44100 Hz
Channels:          2
Bits per sample:   16
Bitrate:           575 kbps
Codec:             FLAC

If Mercury conductors were being told to compromise recordings then I assume the same was being told to those at RCA, Decca, etc.

What seems more realistic is simply a limitation of recording technology. I spoke to a recording engineer that had a client request him use tube microphones and he said it took him nearly half a day to alter how he normally recorded piano and still didn't think it was optimal. I imagine those kind of microphones that saturate were used in these goldern era recordings. And I can't recall a single current classical recording engineer tell me they ever used compression when I asked.

Quote from: Florestan on November 21, 2023, 05:21:44 AMWe are discussing recordings here, not live concerts. How often does it happen in a live concert that the loudest passages are beyond the pain threshold whereas the quietest ones are basically inaudible --- which is what Spotted Horses talked about?

Taking the word pain literally, something definitely is not right.

1) Presbycusis, tinnitus or some other form of hearing loss aggravated by loud sounds or certain frequencies (typically upper midrange or higher). I know 78 surface noise in particular which occurs at a lower frequency than LPs can aggravate certain types of hearing loss. I've also read of some cranial nerve VIII hypersensitivities where loud sounds cause the tympanic membrane to involuntary move a large amount, which can be felt as a sensation in the person with this affliction.

2) Headphone listening - problematic for sure, I find headphone listening just sucks in general unless I want to verify some artifact I heard on speakers. Another issue with headphones which might lead into bullet point one is when I was going to Headfi meets I was astounded how loud people listen to headphones, not even specific to a certain age, this was from 18 to AARP. Even smaller meets where people had setups in individual rooms with no outside noise. Fletcher Munson curves explain why people do this, headphones just do not do bass well leading people to listen loud. Unless one is absolutely diligent about their volume levels headphone listening is just not safe.

3) Compromised listening circumstances where you can't have the louder sections playing at an appropriate A weighted level on speakers because of others.

Solutions to most of those issues - open up Audacity,  effect - amplify or compress. Audacity won't clip the signal unless you tell it to. If it's still too dynamic highlight the soft parts and amplify those.

I simply can not fathom not desiring maximum fidelity from a recording. For those that want compressed recordings you can always do it yourself, if a recording comes out compressed there is no way to undo it for those of us that want the full dynamic range.

Here is Karajan's Berlin performance of Bruckner's Symphony 4 scherzo. That highlights the full roughly 11 minutes, it appears even more dynamic when zoomed in.

So it's not just these Japanese conductors and European numpties that couldn't get a gig conducting in the west that know the power of dynamic range  ;D Depressing thought that the power of Karajan conducting that movement could be blunted by compression. 

(https://i.imgur.com/jgkaWIu.jpg)

The new forum software automatically resizes the image without giving the option to expand it, here is the full size image which makes it slightly easier to see how dynamic it is: https://i.imgur.com/jgkaWIu.jpg

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 21, 2023, 06:35:27 AMInteresting that you mentioned Denon as the few CDs that I have purchased of theirs, I found the dynamics were compressed.  I believe that these were ones from either the late '80's or early '90's?  I'd have to dig around.  I stopped buying them.   :(

When are yours from Atriod?

PD

All the ones I bought in the last couple of years are recordings from roughly 2010 onwards. I have several 1980s and 90s Denon CDs and I've never heard compression on any of them. Do you have any examples? I generally associate the label with good sound.

Quote from: Atriod on November 21, 2023, 04:23:29 PMAll the ones I bought in the last couple of years are recordings from roughly 2010 onwards. I have several 1980s and 90s Denon CDs and I've never heard compression on any of them. Do you have any examples? I generally associate the label with good sound.

I'll check--hopefully tomorrow as my stomach has been bothering me all day [I just tried eating two Saltines with some water to see if they will stay down.]  :(

PD

The bigger issue with the dynamic range for me on some recordings are the quiet sections more so than the loud ones. I can't say I equate dynamic range with emotion when I can't hear the sounds. I equate things like harmony, melody, counterpoint and the over all musical logic with an emotional response more so than dynamics. The latter is often more related to adrenaline I suspect rather than emotion exactly.

Quote from: Atriod on November 21, 2023, 03:54:47 PMIf Mercury conductors were being told to compromise recordings then I assume the same was being told to those at RCA, Decca, etc.

Telling conductors that "music softer than a certain level would simply not be audible on tape" and asking them to adjust their dynamic levels accordingly is not "telling them to compromise recordings" at all; on the contrary, it's telling them to cooperate in delivering quality recordings.

Be it as it may, too much and too frequent dynamic contrast can become fatiguing to the ear even if kept within reasonable sonic levels. I know of no great composer who abuses it.

Quote from: Atriod on November 21, 2023, 04:17:58 PMwhen I was going to Headfi meets I was astounded how loud people listen to headphones,

There is a simple rule of thumb here: if people around you can hear sound coming from your headphones, the volume is definitely set dangerously high. And if they can even distinguish what music is being played, you're on your way to deafness.

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 21, 2023, 06:35:27 AMInteresting that you mentioned Denon as the few CDs that I have purchased of theirs, I found the dynamics were compressed.  I believe that these were ones from either the late '80's or early '90's?  I'd have to dig around.  I stopped buying them.   :(

When are yours from Atriod?

PD

Quote from: Atriod on November 21, 2023, 04:23:29 PMAll the ones I bought in the last couple of years are recordings from roughly 2010 onwards. I have several 1980s and 90s Denon CDs and I've never heard compression on any of them. Do you have any examples? I generally associate the label with good sound.

The one that I did find was with the Smetana Quartet from 1985 (of Janacek's two string quartets).  I suspect that the one that I did notice the reduction of the dynamic range was of a symphonic work.

PD

Quote from: atardecer on November 21, 2023, 05:14:00 PMThe bigger issue with the dynamic range for me on some recordings are the quiet sections more so than the loud ones. I can't say I equate dynamic range with emotion when I can't hear the sounds. I equate things like harmony, melody, counterpoint and the over all musical logic with an emotional response more so than dynamics. The latter is often more related to adrenaline I suspect rather than emotion exactly.

"Harmony, melody, counterpoint" I agree with you and all very true. But these are qualities of what the composer wrote. How much to play dynamic markings is a result of the conductor and recording people.

I don't have much interest in excitement in classical music. I don't even find much exciting in things like film. I get my excitement or rush bombing down technical hills on my mountain bike, taking jumps or enjoying spirited driving in my cars. I like my preferred genres of classical because they're emotionally moving.

I disagree that dynamics are not part of emotional involvement. The first time I heard the end of the fourth movement of Mahler's second by Inbal/TMSO going into that massively dynamic opening of the last movement I immediately had to click back and hear it again it was so moving. Pines of Rome was one of the earliest symphonic works I heard that made me fall in love with classical and Catacombs is my favorite piece from the trilogy. There are plenty of middle of the road interpretations of Catacombs, but when a conductor perfectly balances the horn solo, the orchestral levels and the large dynamic swells that is also an example of incredibly moving moments. I could think of hundreds of examples.

edit: I have to add I am speaking all things being equal, only discussing what I consider great performances. The top tier recording in the world won't save even an average performance.

Quote from: Jo498 on November 21, 2023, 07:49:06 AMStuff from 3 LPs on one CD. DG LP covers at that time had "Stereo" in red in that little box that says "mono" because it was still special. The stupid CD reissue producer not only opted for the least interesting cover but replaced the stereo with mono because the pieces taken from different LPs are mono.

(https://i.discogs.com/c-BX0jNt-xHg65CDPbLuhhOFnDuSRmrsuk-qZSeQoRw/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTczNzM0/NTUtMTQ0MTEzMDUx/NC05MTQ3LmpwZWc.jpeg)

(https://i.discogs.com/p8yaeA3SZDtOezZ7_d4pHyzxq2eYPYpCeo4uwxNSSvc/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:588/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTE1MDA5/ODE2LTE1ODU0NjIy/NjEtODI3Mi5qcGVn.jpeg)
(https://i.discogs.com/dwkww6-0JCIH__XTVwR7bNoNVclekTAvrSr2lcEkq9Q/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:590/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTEyMTM1/MzAxLTE2MDY2Njc3/MzItMjc0Mi5qcGVn.jpeg)
(https://i.discogs.com/AH4Vp_jckT5AFdmbsLWYFzhHmKYZmRoMpqrrKr7gaW8/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:578/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTE3Njk5/MDUtMTYxODI1NDE4/MC0yMDQ1LmpwZWc.jpeg)

Thank you for the explanation and nice photos. Yes, Janos Suite is stereo while other tracks are mono. All the tracks sound great, but the mono track of Galanta Dance sounds wild and exceptional.

Quote from: Florestan on November 22, 2023, 12:02:38 AMTelling conductors that "music softer than a certain level would simply not be audible on tape" and asking them to adjust their dynamic levels accordingly is not "telling them to compromise recordings" at all; on the contrary, it's telling them to cooperate in delivering quality recordings.

Be it as it may, too much and too frequent dynamic contrast can become fatiguing to the ear even if kept within reasonable sonic levels.

I addressed that above, that is either a "you" issue or some other compromise in your circumstance. Recordings shouldn't be made to suit some compromise. Should we go even further and start compressing classical music like pop music because I can't listen to classical music over the sound of a NA flat 6 engine when I'm almost red lining? Listening to music in a car might be one of the ways that music is most often enjoyed.

The dynamic ranges I indicated above of roughly 10 to 15 db in those analog tape era recordings spanned pretty much every classical label. Now we get to the modern digital era with BIS, Channel Classics, Mariinsky, Harmonia Mundi, etc and suddenly there is a change of heart on what to tell conductors?

I simply don't buy it. What we have now are microphones, preamps, etc that have less limitations.

That 20 db dynamic range I gave was a rather extreme example. Typically it's on average 2 db more dynamic range than those analog tape era recordings or not even much of a difference at all.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: Denis Matsuev / Rachmaninov: Piano Concerto No. 2; Prokofiev: Piano Concerto No. 2 (SACD)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR         Peak         RMS     Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR12      -1.46 dB   -19.61 dB      9:52 01-Piano Concerto No. 2 in C minor, Op. 18: 1. Moderato
DR16      -2.11 dB   -23.90 dB      9:52 02-Piano Concerto No. 2 in C minor, Op. 18: 2. Adagio sostenuto
DR12      -1.56 dB   -19.17 dB     11:21 03-Piano Concerto No. 2 in C minor, Op. 18: 3. Allegro scherzando
DR11      -1.46 dB   -17.72 dB     11:22 04-Piano Concerto No. 2 in G minor, Op. 16: 1. Andantino
DR13      -1.89 dB   -19.78 dB      2:21 05-Piano Concerto No. 2 in G minor, Op. 16: 2. Scherzo. Vivace
DR11      -1.87 dB   -17.73 dB      6:31 06-Piano Concerto No. 2 in G minor, Op. 16: 3. Intermezzo. Allegro moderato
DR11      -1.43 dB   -18.09 dB     11:39 07-Piano Concerto No. 2 in G minor, Op. 16: 4. Finale. Allegro tempestoso
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks:  7
Official DR value: DR12

Samplerate:        44100 Hz
Channels:          2
Bits per sample:   16
Bitrate:           514 kbps
Codec:             FLAC
================================================================================


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: Daniele Gatti / Tchaikovsky: Symphony No. 5; Romeo and Juliet [SACD]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR         Peak         RMS     Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR15      -0.25 dB   -21.08 dB     12:46 01-Symphony No. 5 in E minor, Op. 64: I. Andante - Allegro con anima
DR14      -4.58 dB   -24.80 dB     13:54 02-Symphony No. 5 in E minor, Op. 64: II. Andante cantabile, con alcuna licenza - Moderato con anima
DR15      -5.28 dB   -27.46 dB      5:56 03-Symphony No. 5 in E minor, Op. 64: III. Valse: Allegro moderato
DR13      -0.29 dB   -17.86 dB     12:40 04-Symphony No. 5 in E minor, Op. 64: IV. Finale: Andante maestoso - Allegro vivace - Molto vivace
DR16      -2.16 dB   -24.51 dB     20:38 05-Romeo and Juliet, fantasy-overture for orchestra in B minor (3 versions)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks:  5
Official DR value: DR15

Samplerate:        44100 Hz
Channels:          2
Bits per sample:   16
Bitrate:           499 kbps
Codec:             FLAC
================================================================================

QuoteI know of no great composer who abuses it.

That goes without saying.

Quote from: Florestan on November 22, 2023, 12:05:33 AMThere is a simple rule of thumb here: if people around you can hear sound coming from your headphones, the volume is definitely set dangerously high. And if they can even distinguish what music is being played, you're on your way to deafness.

It depends on the headphones. Most hifi headphones are open back, they'll leak a ton of sound. I can measure listening to Sennheiser HD650 at 65 db and it can be heard around me.

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on November 22, 2023, 06:15:40 AMThank you for the explanation and nice photos. Yes, Janos Suite is stereo while other tracks are mono. All the tracks sound great, but the mono track of Galanta Dance sounds wild and exceptional.

Fricsay had already been ill when most of his stereo recordings were made. Although he apparently had recovered and worked as normal for several years, the earlier recordings are often more energetic and some of the late ones seem influenced by the illness that claimed his life before he was 50.

Quote from: Atriod on November 22, 2023, 06:05:20 AM"Harmony, melody, counterpoint" I agree with you and all very true. But these are qualities of what the composer wrote. How much to play dynamic markings is a result of the conductor and recording people.

I don't have much interest in excitement in classical music. I don't even find much exciting in things like film. I get my excitement or rush bombing down technical hills on my mountain bike, taking jumps or enjoying spirited driving in my cars. I like my preferred genres of classical because they're emotionally moving.

I disagree that dynamics are not part of emotional involvement. The first time I heard the end of the fourth movement of Mahler's second by Inbal/TMSO going into that massively dynamic opening of the last movement I immediately had to click back and hear it again it was so moving. Pines of Rome was one of the earliest symphonic works I heard that made me fall in love with classical and Catacombs is my favorite piece from the trilogy. There are plenty of middle of the road interpretations of Catacombs, but when a conductor perfectly balances the horn solo, the orchestral levels and the large dynamic swells that is also an example of incredibly moving moments. I could think of hundreds of examples.

edit: I have to add I am speaking all things being equal, only discussing what I consider great performances. The top tier recording in the world won't save even an average performance.

Some good points, but remember I did not say that 'dynamics are not part of emotional involvement'. I was making a general point in response to your comment that 'dynamic range is emotion'.

Quote from: atardecer on November 22, 2023, 04:35:09 PMSome good points, but remember I did not say that 'dynamics are not part of emotional involvement'. I was making a general point in response to your comment that 'dynamic range is emotion'.

And I never made an isolated statement saying that dynamic range is the only thing related to emotion.

Richard Strauss: Ein Heldenleben.

Clemens Krauss conducting VPO (solo violin Willi Boskovsky).

(https://i.imgur.com/RXHvOZW.jpg)

Krauss was a specialist Richard Strauss conductor as this recording testifies.

(https://imusic.b-cdn.net/images/item/original/020/5024709173020.jpg?harold-bauer-2009-harold-bauer-the-completerecordings-apr-klassisk-cd&class=scaled&v=1237505433)

Harold Bauer had a reputation for exceptional Schumann. The fantasiestucke here is astonishing. You can hear the dynamic control, the extraordinary cantabile phrasing, the variety of touch and timbre and the sensitive way he brings out inner voices.

Quote from: Mandryka on December 05, 2023, 01:18:03 PM(https://imusic.b-cdn.net/images/item/original/020/5024709173020.jpg?harold-bauer-2009-harold-bauer-the-completerecordings-apr-klassisk-cd&class=scaled&v=1237505433)

Harold Bauer had a reputation for exceptional Schumann. The fantasiestucke here is astonishing. You can hear the dynamic control, the extraordinary cantabile phrasing, the variety of touch and timbre and the sensitive way he brings out inner voices.

Will listen, I love his interpretations of WTC, sadly incomplete.