Although he's rather difficult at first, I've become very interested in Nono. Does anyone else here share my like for him? If so, what are your favourite works and how do you rank him among his contemporaries?
I really like Nono. He's an unusual beast in that he made a massive, radical change of style that I think worked equally well as his previous periods. I often think of him as--along with Barraque--the most Romantic of the post-war serialists...everything in his music has an intense need to express itself at all times.
Absolute favourites from his aggressive, noisy serial/agitprop phase:
Il Canto sospeso
Canti di vita e amore
como una ola de fuerza y luz
Al gran sole carico d'amore
From the quietist phase:
...sofferte onde serene.....
Fragmente-Stille, an Diotima
Das atmende Klarsein
the Caminantes cycle
I was wondering, edward:
You mentioned Como una ola de fuerza y luz. Which recording do you have? I don't suppose it's the Abbado with Pollini?
Quote from: Don Giovanni on April 13, 2007, 09:14:55 AM
I was wondering, edward:
You mentioned Como una ola de fuerza y luz. Which recording do you have? I don't suppose it's the Abbado with Pollini?
It is, yes. I think there's one other on Berlin Classics, but I don't have it.
I'm a Nono fan, too (and thought there was a thread about him on the old board, but I couldn't find one).
I'll add La lontananza nostalgica utopica futura, which I first heard live by violinist Mark Menzies, here in NYC a few years ago. Now I have Gidon Kremer's recording, which is very good, but not like hearing (and seeing) it in person!
I also like Liebeslied, on Abbado's disc Wien Modern (which is great in general).
(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/msiart/0000443/0000443611.jpg)
--Bruce
Nono is certainly someone whose work I'll be listening to frequently in the future. Como una ola de fuerza y luz is definitely a good work: the third movement (Duro Deciso) has some of the most haunting vocals I've experienced, at times they border on howling but I suppose if one reads the text it is understandable.
I haven't listened to Nono in almost two decades, so it is time I revisited his work.
If you like people screeching politically-fuelled words in Italian whilst someone uses the piano as a percussive instrument, I'm sure you'll love him! ;D
No, he isn't that violent but I have heard very few composers who are less so.
Quote from: Don Giovanni on April 13, 2007, 09:41:11 AM
If you like people screeching politically-fuelled words in Italian whilst someone uses the piano as a percussive instrument, I'm sure you'll love him! ;D
It seems,
Mr Henning, you have just been
Karled.
What a lovely
rendez-vous, having lost MM recently. ( 8))
May I ask: who was MM?
Quote from: Don Giovanni on April 13, 2007, 10:58:46 AM
May I ask: who was MM?
My bad. MM stands for
Mozart
Mobster (whatever version he was ;)). A former member of the community nowadays known as
The old GMG.
He quit because he was aware College and GMG are not an eligible compound consumption choice.
Oh, I see. :D
How important do people see Nono amongst other composers of the post-1950 avant-garde? I've heard him mentioned alongside Stockhausen and Boulez as one of the 'big three'. Anyone care to make a 'top 5' or something?
Quote from: Don Giovanni on April 13, 2007, 12:40:32 PM
How important do people see Nono amongst other composers of the post-1950 avant-garde? I've heard him mentioned alongside Stockhausen and Boulez as one of the 'big three'. Anyone care to make a 'top 5' or something?
That's probably not an unreasonable assessment. Because of his politically committed nature, he did split away from the mainstream Darmstadt group quite early (though not as early as Henze).
As a sort of guessed top 5 in terms of importance at the time: Boulez, Stockhausen, Nono, Xenakis, Ligeti (in any order). That undervalues other figures such as Berio, Barraque, Maderna and B. A. Zimmermann, though.
I think I would agree with that. Although, I would put Berio directly below that (I think he deserves to be ranked with them - maybe above Xenakis if anyone).
I'm relatively new to the avant-garde - why did Henze split so early?
Quote from: Don Giovanni on April 13, 2007, 01:25:13 PM
I think I would agree with that. Although, I would put Berio directly below that (I think he deserves to be ranked with them - maybe above Xenakis if anyone).
I'm relatively new to the avant-garde - why did Henze split so early?
Largely because Henze's instincts were very much in the direction of a Bergian/Ravellian lyricism (combined with a love of Italian opera). He did write serial music for a while, but generally it wasn't so successful.
Would it be fair to say that, eventually, after Darmstadt each of the composers found a new direction? Did any of the main composers follow eachother? I, although not extremely experienced in new, can hear little similarity between most of Ligeti and most of Stockhausen.
To be honest, all of the major composers had found very different directions even while the Darmstadt group was active. Perhaps after the first three or four years only Berio and Maderna had clear similarities in style: certainly later arrivals like Xenakis, Kagel and Ligeti had nothing to do with the "Darmstadt style."
Oh, interesting. Out of interest, who is your favourite of the avant-garde composers? Who would you recommend I discover next, considering that I am fairly familiar with Nono and Berio?
Ligeti would definitely be my favorite.
If you enjoy Nono and Berio, though, Maderna might be a good guy to listen to too. I think he's very underrated.
"Il Canto Sospeso" and "Como una ola de fuerza y luz" are among my preferred works of the last 50 years. I also love "A floresta é jovem e cheia de vida" and "Sofferte onde serene".
His string Quartet, "An Diotima" is a very difficult work. I must listen to it more times.
Quote from: edward on April 13, 2007, 02:00:39 PM
....If you enjoy Nono and Berio, though...
of course, to enjoy Nono you only need mono; but for Berio, stereo. ;D
Sorry, must try to be serious.... ;D
;D
Quote from: bhodges on April 13, 2007, 09:21:52 AM
I'm a Nono fan, too (and thought there was a thread about him on the old board, but I couldn't find one).
I'll add La lontananza nostalgica utopica futura, which I first heard live by violinist Mark Menzies, here in NYC a few years ago. Now I have Gidon Kremer's recording, which is very good, but not like hearing (and seeing) it in person!
I also like Liebeslied, on Abbado's disc Wien Modern (which is great in general).
(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/msiart/0000443/0000443611.jpg)
--Bruce
I second the quality of the album. The majority of the works are not to my taste--the exception being the Boulez--but Abbado's performance is inspired.
Quote from: val on April 14, 2007, 01:17:48 AM
I also love "A floresta é jovem e cheia de vida"...
I'm hearing this tonight, by the International Contemporary Ensemble, and very much looking forward to it. I've never heard it before.
--Bruce
He's a big nono to me.
Back to Mahler.
Care to explain that, Bonehelm?
Quote from: Don Giovanni on May 23, 2007, 09:55:39 AM
Care to explain that, Bonehelm?
That pun was intended to be there..he's a big nono to me. So I'm saying I'm going back to Mahler's music.
Last night, I felt very lucky to hear A floresta é jovem e cheia de vida ("The Forest is Young and Full of Life"), for vocal soloist, vocal trio, five percussionists and solo clarinet, plus electronics. It's quite powerful, with texts about injustice, struggle, war and death, and the ICE group did a great job with it. Some of the texts are sung, others are whispered or shouted. Guest vocalist Tony Arnold has a piercing soprano used to haunting effect, especially in segments in which she and the other vocalists are orbiting just microtones away from each other.
ICE is bringing the piece down to Mexico, which should be interesting, for a concert that includes Crumb's Black Angels and a new piece by Jason Eckardt. But I hope they keep it in their repertoire for awhile.
--Bruce
I will not hesitate to say that I just do not get Nono. His tape pieces are novel I suppose, but I really have little interest in tape music. His late stuff (Fragmente-stille, etc.) just leaves me scratching my head and the feeling that I've wasted about 30 minutes of my life.
I've listened to perhaps a half-dozen works by Nono, and generally I like him. Except for Al gran sole carico d'amore, which I find to be heavy-handed tripe.
I don't claim to "get" all of Nono's music, either (the limited amount I've heard). Last night, for example, I said to a friend that the spoken portions of the piece don't really satisfy the side of my brain that wants music. Occasionally some of it felt more like a poetry reading than a concert. This work is a "politically charged manifesto" (as the Times said) that requires a willingness to be a bit assaulted for its 45-minute length, which may or may not be on a listener's agenda that evening.
Also, I suspect much of his work is best encountered live. Someone last night was very familiar with a recording of the work (perhaps the one below), but said it gave him little idea of what it would be like in person. Nono is one of those composers whose ideas are sometimes spatial, making recordings somewhat inadequate.
--Bruce
"Voices of Protest" on Mode (http://www.moderecords.com/catalog/087nono.html)
(http://www.moderecords.com/catalog/images/087nono.jpg)
Quote from: bhodges on May 24, 2007, 06:55:41 AM
I don't claim to "get" all of Nono's music, either (the limited amount I've heard). Last night, for example, I said to a friend that the spoken portions of the piece don't really satisfy the side of my brain that wants music. Occasionally some of it felt more like a poetry reading than a concert. This work is a "politically charged manifesto" (as the Times said) that requires a willingness to be a bit assaulted for its 45-minute length, which may or may not be on a listener's agenda that evening.
Also, I suspect much of his work is best encountered live. Someone last night was very familiar with a recording of the work (perhaps the one below), but said it gave him little idea of what it would be like in person. Nono is one of those composers whose ideas are sometimes spatial, making recordings somewhat inadequate.
--Bruce
"Voices of Protest" on Mode (http://www.moderecords.com/catalog/087nono.html)
(http://www.moderecords.com/catalog/images/087nono.jpg)
Excellent points
Bruce, I have some difficulty understanding his music sometimes. The issue of recording in lieu of Nono's compositions makes total sense. Perhaps that is why sometimes there is unbearable silence and space that loses my interest at times with the CD releases.
Still, I enjoy his work but I must revisit.
Charles
I thought we already did a Nono thread, but I will have no problem in saying that Fragmente SQ piece is one of the most powerful SQs I know. In my own personal SQ hierarchy ;) I would rate Framente in the top 10, maybe even top 5. His extension of the vocabulary in the String Quartet is hugely significant, but the music itself is very very powerful/moving for me, and very very personal. Definitely not dinner music, but a great get-away on headphones.
I haven't heard Fragmente in years (not for any particular reason) and should revisit it. The Amazon reviewer of the LaSalle version (which I had on LP) seems to know what he's talking about. (http://www.amazon.com/Nono-Fragmente-Stille-Diotima-Luig/dp/B000025MGY/ref=sr_1_2/102-5466874-5712154?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1180037785&sr=1-2)
Which recording do you have?
--Bruce
I personally have the LaSalle version of Fragmente - Stille, an Diotima . I wanted to hear this piece in the most lyrical interpertation possible at the time I bought it. I don't recall offhand that the LaSalle is really that lyrical. Looking back and knowing more about it, it must be due the powerful nature of the work, in that it is likely music that cannot be brought out in those terms because it is it's own unique creation. In fact I question now my original intentions (was it a good idea?) to hear it in a more romantic style.
Charles
Quote from: Charles on May 24, 2007, 12:48:11 PM
I personally have the LaSalle version of Fragmente - Stille, an Diotima . I wanted to hear this piece in the most lyrical interpertation possible at the time I bought it. I don't recall offhand that the LaSalle is really that lyrical. Looking back and knowing more about it, it must be due the powerful nature of the work, in that it is likely music that cannot be brought out in those terms because it is it's own unique creation. In fact I question now my original intentions (was it a good idea?) to hear it in a more romantic style.
Charles
I can imagine it done more lyrically, although based on what I've heard of Nono and his ideology, he might prefer a more "neutral" reading. In any case, I really need to get this on CD.
--Bruce
Quote from: bhodges on May 24, 2007, 12:56:41 PM
I can imagine it done more lyrically, although based on what I've heard of Nono and his ideology, he might prefer a more "neutral" reading. In any case, I really need to get this on CD.
--Bruce
That's it .. and based on that the Arditti would be a safe choice .... I might seek that one out.
Charles
Quote from: Charles on May 24, 2007, 01:04:38 PM
That's it .. and based on that the Arditti would be a safe choice .... I might seek that one out.
Charles
Charles, I didn't realize you like Nono until seeing these posts. If I had, I would have dragged you to the concert last night! ;D Hopefully ICE will do it again sometime.
--Bruce
Quote from: bhodges on May 24, 2007, 12:24:16 PM
I haven't heard Fragmente in years (not for any particular reason) and should revisit it. The Amazon reviewer of the LaSalle version (which I had on LP) seems to know what he's talking about. (http://www.amazon.com/Nono-Fragmente-Stille-Diotima-Luig/dp/B000025MGY/ref=sr_1_2/102-5466874-5712154?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1180037785&sr=1-2)
Which recording do you have?
--Bruce
My intro to the piece was the arditti. I have a few others but like the arditti the best.
I've got the Mode Records recording of A floresta è jovem e cheja de vida , but I wish DG would issue their version on CD. I had a tape recording of the LP that I played to death as a teenager. The new recording doesn't have anything like the impact.
Quote from: Bonehelm on May 23, 2007, 03:34:51 PM
That pun was intended to be there..he's a big nono to me. So I'm saying I'm going back to Mahler's music.
I completely understood what you said. I was asking if you minded explaining your dislike of Nono.
Quote from: Bonehelm on May 23, 2007, 09:10:21 AM
He's a big nono to me.
Back to Mahler.
Resurrection Time!
Bonehelm do you know that
Luigi Nono[/b] was an ardent admirer of
Gustav Mahler? I was not aware of it either until this afternoon when I was watching my latest DVD purchase
A Trail on the Water. At the beginning of a segment there were those two notes making me mutter "That's Mahler's 1st". I could not see the connection with this and the wonderful documentary on EuroArts about the trio of close friends:
Abbado - Nono - Pollini.
I have tried Nono off and on for a number of years, was intrigued, but did not 'get' him. Then I saw this DVD and decided to give him one more try. I think I am getting closer to understanding him, especially hearing his two friends discussing and explaining him. In one of the previous posts the silences in Nono's music were mentioned - and not appreciated! - Abbado comes right out and claims most people do not know how to listen! There is something to hear during the silence.
Please, give Nono a chance if you are not yet familiar with him and if you do know and admire him, this DVD will increase your enjoyment of his work. :)
I thought I had already posted here, huh.
As far as Fragment...Stille is concerned, the new version by the Quatuor Diotima (w/ Lachenmann!! No.2) is THE BEST BY FAR!!
The LaSalle is what it is, the Arditti gave up the crown to this version, and the MoscowSQ on ColLegno is unheard (though, how could it be better than this new one?). If there is another version, I can't remember.
Either way, this Assai release, with Lachenmann no less, is one of the greatest SQ recordings of High Modernism. The sound is perfect, and the playing might remind one of the JACKQuartet. The group does edge out the Arditti here; please, don't faint, it happens!! The Lachenmann, too, edges out the Arditti (yes, I sold both Arditti discs for this one!).
It just happens that I've been listening to Fragmente for a week lately, and, yes, it has all the good stuff. The "richocet" section towards the end of the first part is pretty cool. Also, the sinewy, slippery melodic cells are pretty rarified. I plan on really getting deeply into this piece in the near future (lots of dark, quiet listening). I've heard that Hugh Wood's No.3 is of a similar extra-musical inspiration (lots of "tracts" on the score).
I love any long form High Modernist SQ (uh...USUALLY, haha!!).
Quote from: snyprrr on February 13, 2010, 08:42:12 AM
I thought I had already posted here, huh.
As far as Fragment...Stille is concerned, the new version by the Quatuor Diotima (w/ Lachenmann!! No.2) is THE BEST BY FAR!!
The LaSalle is what it is, the Arditti gave up the crown to this version, and the MoscowSQ on ColLegno is unheard (though, how could it be better than this new one?). If there is another version, I can't remember.
Either way, this Assai release, with Lachenmann no less, is one of the greatest SQ recordings of High Modernism. The sound is perfect, and the playing might remind one of the JACKQuartet. The group does edge out the Arditti here; please, don't faint, it happens!! The Lachenmann, too, edges out the Arditti (yes, I sold both Arditti discs for this one!).
It just happens that I've been listening to Fragmente for a week lately, and, yes, it has all the good stuff. The "richocet" section towards the end of the first part is pretty cool. Also, the sinewy, slippery melodic cells are pretty rarified. I plan on really getting deeply into this piece in the near future (lots of dark, quiet listening). I've heard that Hugh Wood's No.3 is of a similar extra-musical inspiration (lots of "tracts" on the score).
I love any long form High Modernist SQ (uh...USUALLY, haha!!).
If you really enjoy it, then you should get the score and spend time on each of the Hölderlin fragments; it's a unique experience.
I'll have to get that new version, thanks for the recommendation.
I'll have to get that new version.
Discussion from the Sciarrino thread
Quote from: petrArch on March 13, 2010, 12:42:08 PM
Well, close results aren't enough to establish a causal link (as much as wildly different results aren't enough to prove the opposite).
Well, that's a philosophical question :) Actually I don't know. I'm not sure for Cage and Feldman : I find the String Quartet or the Postcards from Heaven quite "pre-feldmanian" in many ways.
But you may be right however; maybe Scelsi did not influence Nono. This kind of music writing was in the air at that time : Scelsi's 4 Pieces on a single note and Nono's Coro di Didone are from 1958, Cerha's Spiegel from 1960 and Ligeti's Atmospheres from 1961.
Quote from: petrArch on March 13, 2010, 12:42:08 PM
Klang Komposition has a well-defined meaning, and to me it has nothing to do with what Nono, Lachenmann and even Scelsi did. Again, it is a kind of composition that emerged in the 60s, as a reaction against serialism. Cerha is a good example (see the awesome Spiegel cycle, for instance), along with the textural stuff by Penderecki (e.g. Anaklasis, Emanationen) and most of Ligeti's masterpieces of that decade (e.g. Apparitions, Atmosphères). [...]
As I said above, you are probably using another definition of Klang Komposition. Perhaps because of the use of extended playing techniques, the timbral variety and the free use of "noise"?
Maybe I do, but I can't tell as long as I don't know your own definition of Klang Komposition, and especially the difference you see between Klang Komposition and spectralism. For me it's very dim; both conceive music not as a succession or superposition of notes but as a succession or a superposition of effects.
Quote from: petrArch on March 13, 2010, 12:42:08 PM
The political aspect is inextricable from the work. That's what makes Nono's sound world deep in meaning and intent.
If that was true, I would hate his music. Thank God, music is the only art which has nothing to do with "meaning" nor "intent".
Quote from: petrArch on March 13, 2010, 12:42:08 PM
In any case, this discussion should probably move to a different thread; we don't want to hijack it and take the focus away from Sciarrino ;).
Done :)
--Gilles
Quote from: kentel on March 14, 2010, 05:31:24 AM
Maybe I do, but I can't tell as long as I don't know your own definition of Klang Komposition, and especially the difference you see between Klang Komposition and spectralism. For me it's very dim; both conceive music not as a succession or superposition of notes but as a succession or a superposition of effects.
Hmmm, not exactly; that's just like saying that the difference between tonal music and serialism is very dim, because both are a succession or superposition of notes.
Couple of random search results:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klangkomposition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectral_music
Quote from: kentel on March 14, 2010, 05:31:24 AM
If that was true, I would hate his music. Thank God, music is the only art which has nothing to do with "meaning" nor "intent".
Has nothing to do? Perhaps you mean
can have nothing to do, as in e.g. absolute music. Meaning and intent cannot be denied across the board--unless you are being deliberately blind to the subtext in most western music.
Quote from: petrArch on March 14, 2010, 07:09:43 AM
Hmmm, not exactly; that's just like saying that the difference between tonal music and serialism is very dim, because both are a succession or superposition of notes.
That's a bit far-fetched... there is no comparison between the quantities of works you can write (and actually were written) with succession or superposition of notes than without.
Quote from: petrArch on March 14, 2010, 07:09:43 AM
Has nothing to do? Perhaps you mean can have nothing to do, as in e.g. absolute music. Meaning and intent cannot be denied across the board--unless you are being deliberately blind to the subtext in most western music.
No no, you understood me well : it has nothing to do, objectively. When you listen to La Lontananza you don't go straight to the conclusion that the guy was a member of the Italian Communist Party. Music has no meaning, that's a fact ! And if not, I'd be glad to read a demonstration of the contrary...
Afterwards one can interpretate, analyze, learn about the intentions of the composer, say "there he meant that and there this". In the case of Nono I prefere to ignore, as I find all his commentaries around his own compositions stupid and preposterous, in most cases (but this is subjective). I just consider him as a very talented composer, certainly one of the best of the XXth century for his exceptional sense of sound.
On the other hand, I can understand your interest in the meaning that he intented to convey through his works, as it really was his intention. But music does not convey any meaning, whatever he believed. And I don't hear anything of the political ideas he defended in any of his works. And nobody does, because it is simply impossible.
--Gilles
Quote from: kentel on March 14, 2010, 08:15:53 AM
No no, you understood me well : it has nothing to do, objectively. When you listen to La Lontananza you don't go straight to the conclusion that the guy was a member of the Italian Communist Party. Music has no meaning, that's a fact ! And if not, I'd be glad to read a demonstration of the contrary...
Afterwards one can interpretate, analyze, learn about the intentions of the composer, say "there he meant that and there this". In the case of Nono I prefere to ignore, as I find all his commentaries around his own compositions stupid and preposterous, in most cases (but this is subjective). I just consider him as a very talented composer, certainly one of the best of the XXth century for his exceptional sense of sound.
On the other hand, I can understand your interest in the meaning that he intented to convey through his works, as it really was his intention. But music does not convey any meaning, whatever he believed. And I don't hear anything of the political ideas he defended in any of his works. And nobody does, because it is simply impossible.
We're now at the stage where we're splitting hairs and discussing the finer shades of grey of stricter or looser terminology and semantics.
I never said one would conclude Nono was a member of the Communist Party from listening to his works (maybe if you listen to
all his works). What I meant was that it is worthwhile taking the
message into consideration (say, of
Guai ai gelidi mostri, or
Quando stanno morendo, or
Y entonces comprendió, to choose a few at random). That gives you the context for Nono's move towards a more contemplative (and I would add, disillusioned) approach in his last decade, as opposed to the interventionist and engaged take he had until then; for his appreciation for Hölderlin; and also the prevalent Antonio Machado quote.
My use of
meaning and
intent did not imply that they were intrinsic to the music in the abstract; my point was that they are clearly part of the message put forth by the composer, and the musical work is made up of the whole package. Obviously, there are many extra-musical elements and references, and one needs to be familiar with history, politics, literature and poetry to fully grasp that whole package. But that is par for the course in works of art, some are less deep, others are more literal, yet others are totally and deliberately ambiguous. It's all in the meaning and intent.
Now I dare you to try and not find any meaning when you hear a choir singing
Requiem aeternam dona eis ;), in much the same way that when you listen to
La fabbrica illuminata, the
Epitaffio for Lorca and quite a few other works you will know what they are all about. Is there any shadow of doubt left by a title such as
Ricorda cosa ti hanno fatto in Auschwitz?
Quote from: petrArch on March 14, 2010, 09:08:30 AM
I never said one would conclude Nono was a member of the Communist Party from listening to his works (maybe if you listen to all his works). What I meant was that it is worthwhile taking the message into consideration (say, of Guai ai gelidi mostri, or Quando stanno morendo, or Y entonces comprendió, to choose a few at random). That gives you the context for Nono's move towards a more contemplative (and I would add, disillusioned) approach in his last decade, as opposed to the interventionist and engaged take he had until then; for his appreciation for Hölderlin; and also the prevalent Antonio Machado quote.
My use of meaning and intent did not imply that they were intrinsic to the music in the abstract;
Ok; we agree there :)
Quote from: petrArch on March 14, 2010, 09:08:30 AM
my point was that they are clearly part of the message put forth by the composer, and the musical work is made up of the whole package. Obviously, there are many extra-musical elements and references, and one needs to be familiar with history, politics, literature and poetry to fully grasp that whole package. But that is par for the course in works of art, some are less deep, others are more literal, yet others are totally and deliberately ambiguous. It's all in the meaning and intent.
I agree with the fact that the more you know, the more you understand of the intentions of the composer and in a way the deeper you go within the work. That's actually what I try to do. My problem is that I don't like Nono's discourse for many reasons (and it has more to do with its moralising, bombastic and abstractive tone than with anything else), I don't like Hölderlin's poetry either, but I do like Nono's music. That's why I think that there is no necessary connection between music and ideas.
Quote from: petrArch on March 14, 2010, 09:08:30 AM
Now I dare you to try and not find any meaning when you hear a choir singing Requiem aeternam dona eis ;), in much the same way that when you listen to La fabbrica illuminata, the Epitaffio for Lorca and quite a few other works you will know what they are all about. Is there any shadow of doubt left by a title such as Ricorda cosa ti hanno fatto in Auschwitz?
There is the question of works with sung texts; I have no definitive answer; that's a difficult question... I think I would agree. But these are really very ideological and
engagés works; a very rare thing in classical music.
--Gilles
Time for a revive I think. :)
For a time I thought that Nono's music would never grow on me, but I've recently gone back to his music and have been listening to this disc this week:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41i5lJ%2B1guL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Remarkable stuff. The early Due Esspressioni seems to be an extension of Webern's muted dynamics and constantly shifting instrumental color. There are some really unique instrument doublings in the latter half of the piece.
A Carolo Scarpa is surprisingly Scelsi-like, gravitating around a single tone and alternating stretches of silence with exclamations from the orchestra (with a hefty percussion battery).
Post-Praeludium is scored for tuba and live electronics, but is surprisingly delicate and quite beautiful really. The actions of the player come back as echoes and eventually the lines pile up, weave across and interact with each other. Very ghostly.
"fragmente-stille" is famous. I've heard the Arditti recording but it's been probably four years, so I couldn't compare, but I remember the piece as being extremely static and dull — so funny how our perceptions change. There is so much drama in this piece and I find it excitingly varied and engaging. Need to hear the other recordings.
Where to next?
Quote from: Corey on September 26, 2010, 07:55:01 PM
Where to next?
If you want more orchestral-group works,
No hay caminos, hay que caminar... and
Caminantes... Ayacucho are good choices.
For works in the vein of the string quartet and
Post-Prae-Ludium there's a bunch I really like, such as
Omaggio a György Kurtág,
Guai ai gelidi mostri and
A Pierre, Dell'Azzurro Silenzio, Inquietum, all for ensemble and live electronics. The violin duo
"Hay que caminar" sognando has the same kind of sonority than the string quartet, plus it was Nono's last work. My own favourite among all is probably
La lontananza nostalgica utopica futura for violin and 8-track tape.
There are also a few worthwhile tape works from the 60s,
Contrappunto dialettico alla mente,
La fabbrica illuminata and
Y entonces comprendió.
Thank you! I think I will look for the orchestral works first.
I haven't seen the score, so can't be sure of this, but I've heard from musicians who've performed the work that the BPO/Abbado performance is rather sloppy and cuts a lot of rhythmic corners to make the work easier to play. With that and the issues with the spoken inserts, one can only hope for a new commercial recording of this work--in the meantime I find Abbado certainly demonstrates why Il canto sospeso has consistently been spoken of alongside Gruppen and Le marteau sans maitre.
I know that if I could only save one of those works, it would be the Nono one.
Say "yes" to thread necromancy... I found a rather interesting transcription of a Japanese symposium on Nono's work here: http://www.ntticc.or.jp/pub/ic_mag/ic027/html/128e.html
Quote from: James on July 05, 2011, 03:01:53 AM
New Nono album .. (has anyone heard it?)
(https://neos-music.com/images/covers-large/NEOS_11119_Nono.jpg)
Wow, a recording of
Risonanze erranti, at last... I have a bootleg copy, but will most definitely order this CD!
Now this is excellent news: Risonanze erranti was surely about the most important unrecorded Nono work.
(https://neos-music.com/images/covers-large/NEOS_11119_Nono.jpg)
Got this in the mail today. It will be part of my saturday morning listening.
Cool.
Quote from: petrarch on October 14, 2011, 05:42:37 AM
(https://neos-music.com/images/covers-large/NEOS_11119_Nono.jpg)
Got this in the mail today. It will be part of my saturday morning listening.
This recording of the elusive
Risonanze erranti does not disappoint. Like many of Nono's late works, where sounds inhabit a rarefied world at the lower limits of hearing, this work benefits greatly from the pristine studio recording, allowing the subtle timbral variations to be heard perfectly, contrasting with the low quality of the live bootleg recording I previously had.
Risonanze erranti shares the same sound world of
Omaggio a Kurtág, which is not surprising given their chronology and that the central instruments are the same--the contralto/mezzo-soprano syllables thrown into echoing spaces, the airy notes of the flute and tuba complementing the voice. But there are two key differences: The use of percussion, with bongos struck with sticks that violently cut through the setting of the voice and instruments, and the long silences that frame each group of sounds and over which bright, pure, resonating crotales ring freely. This results in a much more austere, fractured and pensive piece than the smoother, more peaceful
Omaggio a Kurtág.
In all, this is an excellent rendition of the piece, filling a long-standing gap in the list of available recordings of Luigi Nono's works from his last decade.
Couple of really cool looking concerts coming up at the end of February.
There's a rare chance to hear some Luigi Nono music live at the end of February.
Two concerts, on February 27 and 28, the first at Frederick Loewe Theatre, the second at Judson Church.
A preconcert talk and performance on the 26th, too, at the Greenwich House Music School.
These shows are being put on by people who have been performing Nono in Europe for a number of years along with someone who's worked with Nono on the electronics part of things.
Stefan Litwin, pianist, Stacey Mastrian, voice, Alvise Vidolin, artistic director and electronics.
More information at http://www.emfproductions.org/ (http://www.emfproductions.org/) if you're interested.
Quote from: some guy on February 05, 2012, 08:54:35 AM
Couple of really cool looking concerts coming up at the end of February.
More information at http://www.emfproductions.org/ (http://www.emfproductions.org/) if you're interested.
Cool stuff, I might just hop to NYC to attend those.
And coincidentally, there's another performance of La lontananza around that time, too (March 3) with Mark Menzies of Ensemble Sospeso:
http://sospeso.com/macchina-sospiro/
At the moment I'm planning to be at this, plus the EMF concerts - will be interesting to compare.
--Bruce
Quote from: petrarch on February 05, 2012, 01:04:17 PM
Cool stuff, I might just hop to NYC to attend those.
Will be there for the Monday and Tuesday concerts. Anyone else going?
I was just listening to the Schoenberg Variations. Mm,... very spare, I don't really know what to say about it,... didn't really make such an impression. It certainly must have sounded pretty spare at the time, huh? Still, it
I tried listening to Guai ai gelidi nostri today. But in spite of turning my stereo up beyond my usual settings for classical music, I couldn't hear a thing. Eventually I just gave up. Nono's late works seem to be powerful in concert, but home listening of anything starting with Fragmente-Stille is always disappointing.
Quote from: CRCulver on February 25, 2012, 11:00:47 AM
I tried listening to Guai ai gelidi nostri today. But in spite of turning my stereo up beyond my usual settings for classical music, I couldn't hear a thing. Eventually I just gave up. Nono's late works seem to be powerful in concert, but home listening of anything starting with Fragmente-Stille is always disappointing.
I have the opposite impression. I especially
love the post-string quartet works, and are very enjoyable at home.
Quote from: petrarch on February 23, 2012, 06:40:17 PM
Will be there for the Monday and Tuesday concerts. Anyone else going?
These concerts were quite good, especially
Lontananza, which worked really well on that space. But the highlight of both nights was to meet Brewski in person (the after-concert dinner and chat yesterday was a pleasure!).
Another new Nono disc from Neos. Unfortunately I think the ...sofferte onde serene..... and Con Luigi Dallapiccola are the same recordings that were released on the col legno disc with Das atmende Klarsein.
(https://neos-music.com/images/covers-large/NEOS_11122_Nono.jpg)
Quote from: edward on August 01, 2012, 05:20:18 AM
Another new Nono disc from Neos. Unfortunately I think the ...sofferte onde serene..... and Con Luigi Dallapiccola are the same recordings that were released on the col legno disc with Das atmende Klarsein.
(https://neos-music.com/images/covers-large/NEOS_11122_Nono.jpg)
Con Luigi Dallapiccola has a different set of musicians.
...sofferte onde serene..... is with Hinterhäuser on both, however the timings are different. In any case, I am sold on this one; having a properly recorded
A Pierre is an opportunity that can't be ignored (the previous recording on Ricordi is not that great). The new recording of
Omaggio a Kurtág is a plus.
Quote from: petrarch on August 01, 2012, 06:29:07 AM
Con Luigi Dallapiccola has a different set of musicians. ...sofferte onde serene..... is with Hinterhäuser on both, however the timings are different. In any case, I am sold on this one; having a properly recorded A Pierre is an opportunity that can't be ignored (the previous recording on Ricordi is not that great). The new recording of Omaggio a Kurtág is a plus.
That's like the most utilitarian Nono disc I've ever seen. It's always nice to see that others know how to wisely program their...mm... 'product'! Yes, a GOOD recording would be sweet!!
What's that Luigi, I couldn't hear?! ???
I'm really finding his SQ to be one of my favorite musical expressions. It has everything I need; I'm always choosing it over others when I need a satisfying listen.
Quote from: petrarch on February 29, 2012, 06:26:47 PM
These concerts were quite good, especially Lontananza, which worked really well on that space. But the highlight of both nights was to meet Brewski in person (the after-concert dinner and chat yesterday was a pleasure!).
Petrarch, so sorry - somehow I missed this! I can only reply that the pleasure was mine as well. And I enjoyed meeting your marvelous wife, too.
OK, back to Nono... ;D
--Bruce
What would you call it if Nono had written a work for nine instruments ? The Nono nonette !
;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Superhorn on August 02, 2012, 08:16:59 AM
What would you call it if Nono had written a work for nine instruments ? The Nono nonette !
I thought that was a musical...
;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Superhorn on August 02, 2012, 08:16:59 AM
What would you call it if Nono had written a work for nine instruments ? The Nono nonette !
If we consider the live electronics as an instrument, there are two such nonets in Nono's oeuvre:
Guai ai gelidi mostri and
Risonanze erranti, two eminently worthy works.
Quote from: snyprrr on August 01, 2012, 07:08:49 AM
I'm really finding his SQ to be one of my favorite musical expressions. It has everything I need; I'm always choosing it over others when I need a satisfying listen.
Yes, there is something very special about the SQ. It would be one of my 'desert island' works.
Quote from: edward on August 01, 2012, 05:20:18 AM
Another new Nono disc from Neos. Unfortunately I think the ...sofferte onde serene..... and Con Luigi Dallapiccola are the same recordings that were released on the col legno disc with Das atmende Klarsein.
(https://neos-music.com/images/covers-large/NEOS_11122_Nono.jpg)
Just got this today. All works are brand new recordings, all from December 2010.
Quote from: petrarch on September 08, 2012, 08:15:19 AM
Just got this today. All works are brand new recordings, all from December 2010.
Good to know. That pushes the disc into the 'must-have' category for me.
Gave this a listen today:
(https://neos-music.com/images/covers-large/NEOS_11122_Nono.jpg)
The recordings are all top notch. Finally, an A Pierre that is clean and transparent and with outstanding clarity, traits that are common to the other recordings presented here. This clarity makes me almost thoroughly enjoy ...sofferte onde serene..., a work which I never cared much for partly because of the muddled sound of the bass notes in the tape, which here come across much closer to what the tape sounds like in concert. Omaggio a Kurtág is one of my favorite works, and this recording does it great justice, although I think I prefer the slightly wetter reverberation in the Montaigne disc. Topping it all off, a stellar sounding performance of Con Luigi Dallapiccola, with its interplay of metallic ringing percussion and the drier, skin and wood percussion instruments.
Watch me draw petrarch out with the Nono Thread (tee hee ;) :D ;D)
Quote from: snyprrr on April 06, 2014, 10:46:22 AM
Watch me draw petrarch out with the Nono Thread (tee hee ;) :D ;D)
Nothing new this side of the music world... After the release of
Risonanze erranti, I am content.
Quote from: petrarch on April 06, 2014, 11:33:22 AM
Nothing new this side of the music world... After the release of Risonanze erranti, I am content.
Made ya look! ;)
Any New Composer discoveries?
Quote from: snyprrr on April 06, 2014, 12:12:58 PM
Made ya look! ;)
Any New Composer discoveries?
Gérard Zinsstag (e.g.
Innanzi) and Walter Zimmermann (e.g.
Ursache und Vorwitz and
Distentio), as mentioned in the 1950-2000 thread.
Quote from: petrarch on April 06, 2014, 11:33:22 AM
Nothing new this side of the music world... After the release of Risonanze erranti, I am content.
I'm bringing up Nono,... the ooother Italian Composer of High Modernism that I have problems with. I'm just looking over his Works List (NonoWorld), and I'm just not finding much that I DESIRE for. Sure, I'll check it out for research purposes, but I remember having that Wergo disc with 'Bastiana', and early stuff, and I think even a tape piece, and I just thought it was the dreariest thing ever (at the time- but, I've always had problems here).
Now, I do have most all of Nono that I do care for (SQ for one, obviously- love it!), so it's not that. I just look at all those pieces with 'live electronic' and my ears glaze over. I've heard sooome of it (like the tuba bit), and, maybe I just come from a more technological generation, but I feel I'd rather get all that stuff elsewhere (generally, meaning, outside of the 'ComposerWorld'). Eh, it's mMonday, maybe I'm just whining? ;D
I am interested in any Teldec recording of music I don't care for (Zimmermann, Nono), so, I'm willing. I guess I'd like to hear that EMI Opera- I mean, it can't be that horrible, haha?!! Wish I'd gotten that when it came out...
Also, Nono's not my go-to guy for tape pieces, either. (I dooo like Maderna here, and Xenakis) Of course, I haven't heard much, but, maybe it's the fear that Nono's going to be suffused with politics, and I'd rather have Roger wwaters for that!
eh... what am I getting at? What should I do? :-[
Quote from: snyprrr on April 28, 2014, 08:31:37 AM
I guess I'd like to hear that EMI Opera- I mean, it can't be that horrible, haha?!! Wish I'd gotten that when it came out...
Snyprrr, you can get the "opera" (
Prometeo) in this readily available version:
[asin]B000VKW79G[/asin]
I own the EMI version (I did get it when it came out ;) ), but haven't listened to it for ages...At first, I thought it was the coolest thing on earth. Then, some years later, I was thinking more "this is kinda boring" ::)...but, well, I should revisit it (when I'm in the right mood for it)...
A friend of mine who's very much into this repertoire attended the dress rehearsal of a performance of
Prometeo given in Madrid some years ago: he was telling me that live, with the distraction of seeing the musicians deal with the score and observing the electronic manipulation, it was rather fun :.
I myself am a big fan of the early, strictly serial / Darmstadt Nono:
Variazione Canoniche,
Polifonica—monodia—rítmica,
Der rote Mantel,
Il Canto sospeso... The later compositions I find are a bit of an uphill struggle for me :-[ (but one I am usually willing to engage in).
Quote from: ritter on April 28, 2014, 09:21:43 AM
Snyprrr, you can get the "opera" (Prometeo) in this readily available version:
[asin]B000VKW79G[/asin]
I own the EMI version (I did get it when it came out ;) ), but haven't listened to it for ages...At first, I thought it was the coolest thing on earth. Then, some years later, I was thinking more "this is kinda boring" ::)...but, well, I should revisit it (when I'm in the right mood for it)...
A friend of mine who's very much into this repertoire attended the dress rehearsal of a performance of Prometeo given in Madrid some years ago: he was telling me that live, with the distraction of seeing the musicians deal with the score and observing the electronic manipulation, it was rather fun :.
I myself am a big fan of the early, strictly serial / Darmstadt Nono: Variazione Canoniche, Polifonica—monodia—rítmica, Der rote Mantel, Il Canto sospeso... The later compositions I find are a bit of an uphill struggle for me :-[ (but one I am usually willing to engage in).
Well, obviously 'Scarpa' and 'Tarkovsky' pose no problems to anyone that I know of. The String Quartet poses no problems... for anyone! For me, the 'Strictly Serial' stuff sounds like the Total Serialism like I hear in others, so, I'm cool with that stuff.
As I spent the day reading about Nono, my overwhelming reaction was to... bitch slap him. Maybe I just have no patience for the 'Sincere Communist' routine,... uh, it's just so overbearing like an Inquisitor, I mean, who said Commies
weren't Totalitarian F*** Wads of the Highest Order?- what?, that generation of Italians couldn't see the 'Old Boss Like the New Boss' Syndrome? Like, the whole Age of Love Affair with Communism is over, isn't it? And now we're seeing some grande olde Utopia furr shurr,... thanks Sincere Communist Drones of the Post-War Era, thanks!
I mean, these people... ok, I guess we all thought smoking was fine back then, so, whaddaya goinna do?? But f***- what a bunch of ideological craaaap!! And, sorry to all you Che lovers out there, wuhh wuhh... ack!
'A Tragedy of Listening' huh? I'll give you a tragedy- how DAAARE you write music that is so inaudible that you have to be in some kind of commie hyperbaric chamber- you elitist!- so that one can hear how fanatically you have fawned over ever dynamic marking and how everything is perfect and... bla bla bla... make some music I CAN HEAR!!
Flippin' Scelsi made music you could hHEAR!! >:D AAAAHHHHH!!!!! It infuriates me no end- like James on Cage!! :laugh: :laugh: (he was prolly another patsy)
wait a mi nute....
must calm down
:blank: :blank: :blank: :blank: :blank: :blank: :blank: :blank: :blank:
ok, much better! :-*
Anyhow, what really pisses me off is how he wrote something as violent as 'Luz' and then has the NERVE to TELL us to listen. AAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!! >:D >:D >:D I mean, the flippin hypocracy- huh? what? ... no????
And in EVERY picture I feel like he has that Look-At-Me-I'm-Just-Such-A-Righteous-Dude-...-Dude that I just want to alight on him, tumbling down the hill in a welter of blows.
I would put him in some torture environment and COMPEL him to write some NICE MUSIC!!!!!!!
I AM getting tired of the Ugly Music Italians- and, haha, there's a direct link to Malipiero, as if these guys took his most crabby piece, added a 10X Solution, and started from there.
HOW DAAARE YOU TELL ME TO LISTEN YOU... YOU...
... I'm exhausted...
0:) 0:) 0:)
0:) 0:) 0:)
I am absolutely guilty of no crime!
ok, so, back to Nono... what was the question?
Quote from: snyprrr on April 28, 2014, 08:31:37 AM
I just look at all those pieces with 'live electronic' and my ears glaze over. I've heard sooome of it (like the tuba bit),
The tuba piece is not the most interesting of his live electronic works. It's my favorite period in Nono's output. Try
Omaggio a Kurtag, or
Quando stanno morendo, or
Guai ai gelidi mostri.
Quote from: snyprrr on April 28, 2014, 08:31:37 AM
I guess I'd like to hear that EMI Opera- I mean, it can't be that horrible, haha?!! Wish I'd gotten that when it came out...
I have both releases of
Prometeo. The EMI is quite good, it's visceral and organic. The Col Legno is also quite good, but it is clean, pristine, clinical.
Quote from: snyprrr on April 28, 2014, 08:31:37 AM
maybe it's the fear that Nono's going to be suffused with politics, and I'd rather have Roger wwaters for that!
Give it a listen and leave expectations and prejudice at the door.
Quote from: petrarch on April 28, 2014, 04:31:14 PM
The tuba piece is not the most interesting of his live electronic works. It's my favorite period in Nono's output. Try Omaggio a Kurtag, or Quando stanno morendo, or Guai ai gelidi mostri.
I have both releases of Prometeo. The EMI is quite good, it's visceral and organic. The Col Legno is also quite good, but it is clean, pristine, clinical.
Give it a listen and leave expectations and prejudice at the door.
huh boy, wait till you read my giant rant, haha!!
I still will give Late Nono- those ensemble piece, a second chance (I did those Montaigne when they came out, but was definitely not there at the time).
Quote from: ritter on April 28, 2014, 09:21:43 AM
A friend of mine who's very much into this repertoire attended the dress rehearsal of a performance of Prometeo given in Madrid some years ago: he was telling me that live, with the distraction of seeing the musicians deal with the score and observing the electronic manipulation, it was rather fun :.
I have attended
Prometeo live and a number of performances of his other live electronics works. The sound projection and transformation needs to be heard in concert to truly be appreciated. It's ... wonderful.
Quote from: snyprrr on April 28, 2014, 04:35:31 PM
huh boy, wait till you read my giant rant, haha!!
As I said, leave prejudice at the door :). His late period is much more contemplative, inward-looking, even suffused with disappointment in communism (search for e.g. the meaning behind the
Guai ai gelidi mostri title and the Antonio Machado quote that pervades the post-SQ output). But you would need to dig under the surface and notice the clear demarcation from his period of fervorous engagement.
Quote from: petrarch on April 28, 2014, 04:55:31 PM
As I said, leave prejudice at the door :). His late period is much more contemplative, inward-looking, even suffused with disappointment in communism (search for e.g. the meaning behind the Guai ai gelidi mostri title and the Antonio Machado quote that pervades the post-SQ output). But you would need to dig under the surface and notice the clear demarcation from his period of fervorous engagement.
I get yer drifft. Xenakis too became disillusioned (and BOY! can you hear it in his music), so, yea, I can drench myself in Nono's pain! ;) Perhaps that where i also "hear" Zimmermann? Perhaps Nono is a bit like the Apostle Paul,...
Perhaps it would have been nice to have an Opera about the True Workings of Things, but, hmm,... who is the most 'expose' Composer? Wagner?! :laugh:
... but now we have a whole new generation believing the lie...
I understand about "listening", and not Emotionally Responding to the "headlines" that polarize. I mean, I agree, there IS nuance,... but ppppppp???? Come on!! ::) That's just as bad as a 'headline'! I know that there was a time when the dichotomy between barely audible and the apocalypse was very prevalent. I preferred how both Xenakis (loud) and Feldman (soft) kept to one working dynamic. (and no, we're not even going to mention Mr.K)
All right, ... just winding down my Nono evening,... havent put the Gielen in yet, forgot the SQ at the house. I will attempt some YT, perhaps the 'Kurtag'.
So,... why is it that Nono isn't considered a Spectralist?
did you just change your name???
Quote from: petrarch on April 28, 2014, 04:41:30 PM
I have attended Prometeo live and a number of performances of his other live electronics works. The sound projection and transformation needs to be heard in concert to truly be appreciated. It's ... wonderful.
That I can believe, though I've yet to hear any of his electroacoustic work live. Even on disc, the electronic effects can be extraordinary (some of the manipulated flute sounds in
Caminantes...Ayacucho absolutely blew me away on first listening, despite the limitations of the format).
Quote from: snyprrr on April 28, 2014, 05:52:23 PM
... but now we have a whole new generation believing the lie...
What lie? And as opposed to what truth?
Quote from: snyprrr on April 28, 2014, 05:52:23 PM
I understand about "listening", and not Emotionally Responding to the "headlines" that polarize. I mean, I agree, there IS nuance,... but ppppppp???? Come on!! ::) That's just as bad as a 'headline'! I know that there was a time when the dichotomy between barely audible and the apocalypse was very prevalent.
Did you really misunderstand the meaning of "tragedy of listening"? Or are you too hung up on the potential Communist intentions in every note and every word Nono wrote?
Quote from: snyprrr on April 28, 2014, 05:52:23 PM
So,... why is it that Nono isn't considered a Spectralist?
Easy: Because he didn't compose according to the precepts of Spectralism.
Quote from: petrarch on April 29, 2014, 04:54:55 PM
What lie? And as opposed to what truth?
Did you really misunderstand the meaning of "tragedy of listening"? Or are you too hung up on the potential Communist intentions in every note and every word Nono wrote?
Easy: Because he didn't compose according to the precepts of Spectralism.
The Lie: There is no Opera about BCCI!! And, until there is,... my point- if Nono can be duped, then, why can't a bunch of impressionable US kids be duped?
I know that there is a "general" 'Tragedy of Listening'- and I know then general meaning of it as it relates to the post-'50s- I mean, it's obvious that people listen less than they used to. But, I was also directly relating this to Nono's penchant for flippin outrageously loud cacophany- and THEN tells us there's a 'tragedy of listening'- I mean, I thought that was pretty funny. But, then, he gets all quiet,... ok. Maybe I lost my hearing listening to 'Luz' and can't HEAR your pppppp!!!!
I just seems the height of something that one of the most aurally violent Composers, right at the moment his audience's ears are ringing, switches up his style and asks people to quietly listen. Listen?m to what? That high pitched Eb ringing in their ears?? LOL!!
Frankly, I LIKE Nono. He seems like a sincere boy. The stories of his disastrous openings make me go 'awww'. (I'm not being cheeky) I'd like to know/read more about his personal life. But, how can you accuse me of looking for a communist under every rock with Nono when he himself is the communist patsy par excellence ? I mean, one day he's all gung ho, the next,... what?
Yea, I don't know the story, but, based on what's going on in this country I can only guess that Nono voted for Obama the second time, and now he's having second thoughts? What was it that Nono saw/heard that changed his mind?
btw- aren't the proles gonna want a little more melody than what Nono was offering? How do communist Composers keep from being coercive? "You WILL like this melody- it was written for our dear leader after all".
I mean, what NORMAL person would EVER listen to Nono (or any of the types we like)? If Nono suddenly became head of the Cimmunist Music Dept., what would the childrens' music experience look like then? Just curious
commies lie, and commies lied to Nono (I mean, it's that typically "duped leftie" thing that has gotten quite old lately in this country)
Name a Composer that the oil companies lied to. Who is the Most Fascist Composer Ever? I wonder if that Composer had the same temperament as Nono?
Maybe if Nono SMILED once in a while I wouldn't be suuch a prick! :laugh: Cheer up, buddy,...
Curious as to how Nono would regard the Zio-nista Entity? How did he take to them? That would really be all I'd need to know. (my first thought is that he would be a rabid zionist)
Is Nono TELLING me to "calm down"?, cause you know how THAT works!
Oh those wacky Italians! $:)
Hitler was a leftie, commies are a leftie,... I mean, what's NOT to like?? Dictators agree- gun control works!! (was Nono responsible for anyone's death?)
Anyhow, I'm not trying to start a fight. We can move on to Cage for a nice, reasoned discussion! :laugh:
If I'm wrong, I'll be wrong til it's corrected. :-[
I did let the YT 'Prometeo' run last night whilst I was doing other things. The impression it left me with was almost of a dreary hopelessness, a church without God,... I mean, if this is 'Sacred' Music, well, wow, pass the razor blades!!
And yes, it was pretty quiet, so I missed vast portions, but the tuttis.... it seems there was a lot of this kind of sound in the depressed '80s. But I wouldn't want to be resurrected to it!! Still, I'd like to hear it again, more closely.
Who is a Calvinist Composer?
Quote from: snyprrr on April 30, 2014, 06:51:13 AM
I did let the YT 'Prometeo' run last night whilst I was doing other things. The impression it left me with was almost of a dreary hopelessness, a church without God,... I mean, if this is 'Sacred' Music, well, wow, pass the razor blades!!
And yes, it was pretty quiet, so I missed vast portions, but the tuttis.... it seems there was a lot of this kind of sound in the depressed '80s. But I wouldn't want to be resurrected to it!! Still, I'd like to hear it again, more closely.
Who is a Calvinist Composer?
I don't often understand everything you write, but there are posts like this one which I enjoy reading nevertheless.
Do do that voodoo which you do so well . . . .
Quote from: karlhenning on April 30, 2014, 06:53:32 AM
I don't often understand everything you write, but there are posts like this one which I enjoy reading nevertheless.
Do do that voodoo which you do so well . . . .
It has NOT worked on the fairer sex for quite a while now, whatever "it" is, haha!!
My point about the 'tragedy of listening'-
1) the GENERAL- this is as simple as not listening when told, Eat your peas! This has been going on forever.
2) This is where a political group thinks the general population isn't receiving their message because "we weren't explaining it well enough" (just like what we hear today from the lefties). So, does Nono dogmatically believe his Ideology and is just lamenting that people just don't "get it" (oh, we do)- "if we explained it better then they'd agree"?
Obviously I'm just blithering, but I would like to get to the bottom of Nono's deepest beliefs. Do the ends justify the means with him? (I'm assuming NOT- is that where his falling away came from, the knowledge of the murders behind the revolution?) Allende, yes yes... but I want MORE!!!
Look, just Post that pic of Nono pointing to his ears and I'll be happy!
Honestly, the man has suuuch an awesome face, don't you agree? He has that classic look, the most handsome forehead, the eyebrows, the nose and mouth, just a perfect face of authority. And yes, I judge him harshly for it! ;)
Quote from: snyprrr on April 30, 2014, 06:44:21 AM
I know that there is a "general" 'Tragedy of Listening'- and I know then general meaning of it as it relates to the post-'50s- I mean, it's obvious that people listen less than they used to. But, I was also directly relating this to Nono's penchant for flippin outrageously loud cacophany- and THEN tells us there's a 'tragedy of listening'- I mean, I thought that was pretty funny. But, then, he gets all quiet,... ok. Maybe I lost my hearing listening to 'Luz' and can't HEAR your pppppp!!!!
The 'tragedy' here has nothing to do with a decline in listening habits nor is it any sort of social or cultural commentary. Nono always composed with
sound, i.e. the actual resulting sound from a given instrument producing a given note, with its inner life, timbral quality and rich fluctuations. The 'tragedy of listening' is literally an "unfolding drama between the sound and the act of listening to it" (in the words of Massimo Cacciari). The idea is to "awaken the ear, the eyes, thinking, understanding."
The pppppp has to do with his aesthetics of the exploration of sound in the regions of most instability, something that Nono sought, particularly in his late period: The uncertainty, the uncontrollability, the fragility of sound.
Quote from: snyprrr on April 30, 2014, 06:44:21 AM
But, how can you accuse me of looking for a communist under every rock with Nono (...) based on what's going on in this country I can only guess that Nono voted for Obama the second time (...) "You WILL like this melody- it was written for our dear leader after all". (...) it's that typically "duped leftie" thing
Need I say more?
Quote from: snyprrr on April 30, 2014, 06:44:21 AM
now he's having second thoughts? What was it that Nono saw/heard that changed his mind?
He was a Communist through and through, all the way to the end, though an eternal idealist. His disappointment was not seeing that vision of justice, solidarity and the human condition made real.
Quote from: petrarch on April 30, 2014, 05:31:21 PM
The 'tragedy' here has nothing to do with a decline in listening habits nor is it any sort of social or cultural commentary. Nono always composed with sound, i.e. the actual resulting sound from a given instrument producing a given note, with its inner life, timbral quality and rich fluctuations. The 'tragedy of listening' is literally an "unfolding drama between the sound and the act of listening to it" (in the words of Massimo Cacciari). The idea is to "awaken the ear, the eyes, thinking, understanding."
The pppppp has to do with his aesthetics of the exploration of sound in the regions of most instability, something that Nono sought, particularly in his late period: The uncertainty, the uncontrollability, the fragility of sound.
Need I say more?
He was a Communist through and through, all the way to the end, though an eternal idealist. His disappointment was not seeing that vision of justice, solidarity and the human condition made real.
ok, the 'tragedy of listening' is the fact that a note has a birth, then a life, and then a death, and that, as Existentialists, we look at that note and think of the tragedy of its death? Like the gnarled tree?
To me, the tragedy oi listening is, Eat your broccoli!!
I just want to be clear then: There Is Absolutely NO Pretension in Nono Whatsoever? None?
I made the cursory Wiki effort, and must confess to some giggling at Nono's and Stockhausen's spat. The way Wiki tells it, Nono was quite the butthurt type (over the words of 'Sospeso'), and Stockhausen comes off as the playground know-it-all. Both seem like bullies. I don't know,... add Boulez's brand of asshole to the mix and I can see that Darmstadt must have been a barrel full 'o' monkees, a real joy. (not saying I wouldn't have wanted to be there myself)
I don't know, how can I NOT take Nono's "through and through" Ideology into mind when questioning what I'm listening to, especially if that music has a peculiarly singular quality to it. Feldman writes "quiet" music, like Late Nono, but it's obvious that the two share differing world views based on how they put their notes (proles) on the paper?
I guess because I'm always interested in what GOD- how- God would place notes down,...
I tend to think that a person's Beliefs absolutely color the way they put notes down on a page. Find me a Calvinist Composer and a Communist Composer and I certainly think we might get some interesting comparisons (in a Game Test).
But, was Nono really a Communist, or really a Zionist? Or... is there even a difference?
I was listening to Gielen's 'Tarkovsky',... what to say?... Feldman+Scelsi? It's just that Nono is asking for Sacred Music with No God, and,... what?... if there is no God, how are his notes not empty? It even seems that, if 'Prometeo' is, by default, called 'Sacred Music', isn't it interesting how "empty" it all feels, filling that giant space with quiet (uneasy) tones. There's certainly no VICTORY in Nono's (non) God Music. Is 'Prometeo' the Mass of Nono's Communist Utopia? In that case, I predict a rash of suicides.
So, of course I suffuse Belief into every note every Composer writes. Problem is, one RARELY finds a Composer....
ah, I'm too distraught this morning- I'll start saying even dumber stuff if I continue :-[... had some things happen last night... stress ache today... Nono fate will have to wait (yea right, ahaha) :laugh:
Sorry if I seem like I'm being a dick here... Political Composers always get my goat it seems... I always want to dig up their bones and beat them afresh...
Ultimately it comes down to God vs. Man with me, and I have no patience with Man-Centered Composers who a) Lift Up Man, and then b) Lament When Weak Man Fails. So, there is No Hope in their ultimate WorldView, and they write the most awfully depressing 'Sacred Music'. Stockhausen?
But, Composers in general tend to be Man-Centered... whaddaya gonna do??
I just don't want Schoenberg, Nono, Boulez, or Xenakis, or any one of them being Director of the Music Ministry (of the State) and being in charge of leading the 'worship of the congregation' Again, they might as well hand out razor blades (with instructions) instead of the wine and bread thing.
Atheistm Communist, what's the dif? It's all depressing, Man-Centered religion that has no hope,... and yes, it IS Religion with a Capital 'R'. How is it not?
I Am the most brutish man who ever lived, and have no understanding of all the delicate, subtle delicae that MUST be invoked in order for the incense to work. When I hear 'Prometeo' I don't hear a Call to The Living God, but a Requiem to That Which Is Dead.
I am going off to look into Gramsci, ... yaaay :(... what joy my day brings- I must study Italian Communism so that I can "get" Nono. What happens if I get him, and there is a lingering BUT?
One man sees a 1000 year old statue/work of art......... another man sees an idol to death......one thinks, "Saving this is Good", the other "Destroying this is Good" (Destroying to Save/Saving to Destroy)
Ultimately, even if one thinks God is an illusion, how can one deny that what people think, and how they react to the word God IS how the world is, and who's right and who's wrong really have nothing to do with it as per boots on the ground. Eh?
Signed,
The Conquerer Worm
Quote from: snyprrr on May 01, 2014, 09:54:54 AM
ok, the 'tragedy of listening' is the fact that a note has a birth, then a life, and then a death, and that, as Existentialists, we look at that note and think of the tragedy of its death? Like the gnarled tree?
That is too literal and superficial.
It's a tragedy in the classical sense, a serious play. There are no visuals, no staged action, because it is all in the sound <-> ear interaction.
Worth reading:
http://www.festival-automne.com/Publish/archive_pdf/FAP_1987_MU_PRG.pdf
http://www.festival-automne.com/Publish/archive_pdf/FAP_2000_MU_01_PRGS.pdf
Quote from: petrarch on May 01, 2014, 05:05:17 PM
That is too literal and superficial.
It's a tragedy in the classical sense, a serious play. There are no visuals, no staged action, because it is all in the sound <-> ear interaction.
Worth reading:
http://www.festival-automne.com/Publish/archive_pdf/FAP_1987_MU_PRG.pdf
http://www.festival-automne.com/Publish/archive_pdf/FAP_2000_MU_01_PRGS.pdf
Link no worky 4 me
OK, I see what you're getting at,... just... a... little...
I'm afraid, though, that since the last couple of days, "reality" has crept into my life, and Nono's probably not the Composer I should be looking into this week (I think I need some Haydn or something... birds and surf!). I did bring the 'Stille' with me, so, I'll save that for 3am.
I might have James's attention- so, I'm just warning you that shit might still over from the Stockhausen Thread! ;) (e-e-excellent! >:D)
Relistened to this CD recently. Does anyone here like it?
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/096/MI0001096868.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Quote from: Artem on May 02, 2014, 06:16:21 PM
Relistened to this CD recently. Does anyone here like it?
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/096/MI0001096868.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Yes, thoroughly: It is certainly better than the aging recording on Ricordi and the live one on the Experimentalstudio retrospective box, and an SACD to boot. The one on Neos is worth checking out as it was done by most of the original performers.
Does anyone know if there's a copy of the libretto of Prometeo online? English or French - I found it in Italian but I can't read Italian.
Quote from: petrarch on May 01, 2014, 05:05:17 PM
Worth reading:
http://www.festival-automne.com/Publish/archive_pdf/FAP_1987_MU_PRG.pdf
http://www.festival-automne.com/Publish/archive_pdf/FAP_2000_MU_01_PRGS.pdf
Thanks for doing this - much appreciated.
I've had a day of listening to early Nono, Canto di vita e d'amore, and Canto Sospeso. I really wonder if more humane, more moving, music has been written by anyone ever.
The thing that started this off was a recording of Nono himself conducting Canto di vita, very passionately, from a 1963 London prom with Richard Lewis and Dorothy Dorow. It's on symphonyshare and is just wonderful, as you would expect. Abbado's performance of Canto sospeso doesn't come close to the intensity of Nono's performance of the earlier cantata.
Was Richard Lewis politically engaged? I didn't know he was interested in 20th century music, though I believe he sang in Moses and Aaron.
Nono gave his music titles. "Hay que caminar" soñando - "But we must go on" dreaming." Like something by Samuel Beckett.
Why? What's his late music trying to say?
Quote from: Mandryka on November 20, 2015, 10:04:37 AM
Nono gave his music titles. "Hay que caminar" soñando - "But we must go on" dreaming." Like something by Samuel Beckett.
Why? What's his late music trying to say?
AFAIK, Nono used some variations (for lack of a better term) on the verses "
caminante, no hay camino /se hace camino al andar" (from the collection
Proverbios y Cantares by
Antonio Machado ) in the title of this and some other pieces, e.g.
Caminantes - Ayacucho. I've read that Machado's verse is taken from an inscription on a wall in a monastery in Toledo, but haven't been able to verify this.
Saludos, caminante... :)
EDIT:Some sources say that what Nono read in Toledo was a graffiti
quoting Machado's verse, which seems more plausible; the Machado verse is hugely popular in Spanish-speaking countries because it was used by popular songwriter and singer Joan Manuel Serrat in a very successful song recorded in 1969 (which would explain the graffiti).
The third third work in the "
Caminante Trilogy" is
No hay caminos, hay que caminar...Andrej Tarkowskij ...
Over at La Folia (http://www.lafolia.com/utopian-listening-reinvigorating-nono-in-america/) there is a review of a recent series of Boston concerts dedicated to Nono's music. How lucky people there were to hear so much late Nono in performance, and it's strange I didn't see these concerts talked about elsewhere before.
Quote from: CRCulver on April 01, 2016, 06:04:44 PM
Over at La Folia (http://www.lafolia.com/utopian-listening-reinvigorating-nono-in-america/) there is a review of a recent series of Boston concerts dedicated to Nono's music. How lucky people there were to hear so much late Nono in performance, and it's strange I didn't see these concerts talked about elsewhere before.
Thanks for this!
Grant Chu Chuvell would not have known simply from the audience, but our
David Harris sang alto while he was conducting, so there were indeed 12 voices singing.
Quote from: CRCulver on April 01, 2016, 06:04:44 PM
Over at La Folia (http://www.lafolia.com/utopian-listening-reinvigorating-nono-in-america/) there is a review of a recent series of Boston concerts dedicated to Nono's music. How lucky people there were to hear so much late Nono in performance, and it's strange I didn't see these concerts talked about elsewhere before.
Wow, that sounds fantastic. If I'd known about these performances I'd have been seriously tempted to fly down for them.
I've just read a recent interview with Zubin Mehta, saying that he would really like to conduct Intolleranza 1960 "a flaming protest against intolerance and oppression and the violation of human dignity" at La Scala.
My thoughts: I would really like to see every opera house in Europe staging Intolleranza 1960 at least once in the nearest future. Maybe something's going to change before we reach (again) the point of no return.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65QPTF5npwQ
Quote from: GioCar on September 16, 2016, 07:49:03 AM
I've just read a recent interview with Zubin Mehta, saying that he would really like to conduct Intolleranza 1960 "a flaming protest against intolerance and oppression and the violation of human dignity" at La Scala.
My thoughts: I would really like to see every opera house in Europe staging Intolleranza 1960 at least once in the nearest future. Maybe something's going to change before we reach (again) the point of no return.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65QPTF5npwQ
Nono would no doubt have been very dismayed by the current political situation, both in its humanitarian crises and in the increased popular acceptance of fascist ideology in Europe (and the US). Perhaps there would have been an
Intolleranza 2016.
Quote from: GioCar on September 16, 2016, 07:49:03 AM
I've just read a recent interview with Zubin Mehta, saying that he would really like to conduct Intolleranza 1960 "a flaming protest against intolerance and oppression and the violation of human dignity" at La Scala.
My thoughts: I would really like to see every opera house in Europe staging Intolleranza 1960 at least once in the nearest future. Maybe something's going to change before we reach (again) the point of no return.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65QPTF5npwQ
China?, Africa?, Middle East?, how bout there????????? why does only Europe have to face the wrath of Social Justice? Performances of it in Europe would only confirm in the people that their leaders view them afar off and are lecturing them on delicae of cultural enrichment.
Nono was a Communist and should have his own house cleaned before sorry... lol,... see what happens? ranting happens...
Europe's Gonna Burn,... looks that way...
Only Muslims Wanted for German Police Force
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on March 10, 2017, 10:32:49 AM
I completely love Nono's music but somehow I keep forgetting about him. :'(
I even missed him of my top 50 composers list :'( :'( :'(
A composer doing many things I like and tickling my imagination. He seems to get a certain whiff of ignoring that Scelsi gets but from me and in the contemporary classical world in general :(
Polfonica monodia ritmica is.a wonderful and unique sounding culmination of Webern, Varese and Messiaen (possibly towards the end), very different from the Darmstadt crew of vaguely the same time
I have a special place for the String Quartet, but, then... ... ... thinking... ... ... the Scelsian last Ochestral Works... ... ... Prometeo... ... ... ... I dread hearing the "searing" works- I'd rather hear a Composer mimic bubbles rather than riots- though, as per, it's cool when Xakky does it! ;) LOL :laugh:
"I am Angry Composer Man, Hear Me Roar!! >:D"
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on March 10, 2017, 09:35:41 PM
I thought you loved intense music??? ???
Sometimes I can handle poo poo talk when I'm eating, sometimes I have a weaker stomach... right now, the mere thought of Nono's 'O Sole...' would give me a stress headache... like I said, maaaybe 'Prometeo'- though, NORMALLY, I wouldn't be able to handle THAT (too quiet!). Yes, I fluctuate between total balls-in, and scaredy-cat, lol...
You know those headaches where if you even move an inch it starts throbbin... times like these I need to stay away from the cacophony... but, sometimes even Feldman won't work...
Maybe I think too hard?
If I'm stuck on Haydn, I just can't get into the Modern, - but, if I'm into the Modern, I can handle a little Haydn
https://www.youtube.com/v/swOJjf1HfjE
Could someone please tell me what La Lontananza Nostalgica Utopica Futura means?
Quote from: Mandryka on May 24, 2020, 07:48:24 AM
Could someone please tell me what La Lontananza Nostalgica Utopica Futura means?
"The nostalgic utopian future distance"
https://www.lafolia.com/nonos-shrug-at-immortality-la-lontananza-nostalgica-utopica-futura/
QuoteThe work is dedicated to fellow composer Salvatore Sciarrino: "a Salvatore Sciarrino 'caminante' esemplare."
Sciarrino, in explaining the title, describes it as "a complimentary reference to one of my old works from 1977, All'aure in una lontananza. Until then the term lontananza (distance) had only existed as a concept in Baroque poetry.
For its part La lontananza nostalgica utopica futura is an original title, a unique aesthetic metaphor even, despite the fact that it actually refers to a close circle of authors who were dear to Nono. In terms of conceptual translation: the past reflected in the present (nostalgica) brings about a creative utopia (utopica), the desire for what is known becomes a vehicle for what will be possible (futura) through the medium of distance."
Also:
https://italianacademy.columbia.edu/sites/default/files/devel-generate/phi/Griffiths%20essay.pdf
Quote from: Mandryka on May 24, 2020, 07:48:24 AM
Could someone please tell me what La Lontananza Nostalgica Utopica Futura means?
Surely it's a poetic conceit that doesn't admit of a precise definition?
According to a Guardian article (https://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2012/apr/23/luigi-nono-future-creative-utopia),
The full title translates awkwardly, and the composer Salvatore Sciarrino, to whom La lontananza is dedicated, suggests the following convoluted interpretation: "the past reflected in the present (nostalgica) brings about a creative utopia (utopica), the desire for what is known becomes a vehicle for what will be possible (futura) through the medium of distance (lontananza)".My eyes just glazed over... ???
Yes I got as far as "The nostalgic utopian future distance", thought about it for a few seconds, and decided to defer to you!
Quote from: petrarch on May 24, 2020, 08:01:11 AM
"The nostalgic utopian future distance"
https://www.lafolia.com/nonos-shrug-at-immortality-la-lontananza-nostalgica-utopica-futura/
Also:
https://italianacademy.columbia.edu/sites/default/files/devel-generate/phi/Griffiths%20essay.pdf
Both of these look interesting, thanks.
I have been listening a bit to La Lontananza lately. I have the recording with Melise Mellinger and Salvatore Sciarrino. I find it an extremely opaque, arcane work, and yet also hypnotizing. Nono seems to have done the impossible with this work. I'm impressed, even if I don't fully understand what I'm hearing (and perhaps never will).
I'm tempted to purchase the Kremer/DG recording, which is a good 20 minutes shorter. Any opinions on one vs the other?
Is this quite representative of his music? I can't recall hearing another note of his music outside of this work. Where to next, from here?
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 05, 2020, 04:02:23 PM
I have been listening a bit to La Lontananza lately. I have the recording with Melise Mellinger and Salvatore Sciarrino. I find it an extremely opaque, arcane work, and yet also hypnotizing. Nono seems to have done the impossible with this work. I'm impressed, even if I don't fully understand what I'm hearing (and perhaps never will).
I'm tempted to purchase the Kremer/DG recording, which is a good 20 minutes shorter. Any opinions on one vs the other?
Is this quite representative of his music? I can't recall hearing another note of his music outside of this work. Where to next, from here?
Can't say on
La lontananza; I've seen one live performance (which adds something; the piece has some theatrical aspects as the violinist perambulates the stage) but only have the Kremer. Disclosure: I've always found Kremer's tone a bit wiry for my taste, but it seems to work well here. If you like
La lontananza,
...sofferte onde serene for piano + tape suggests itself. I didn't love the latter, but tastes vary.
No expert, but Nono's "late" work, say post-1980, incorporating electronics is somewhat quieter, different from his earlier music. I enjoy the late stuff but kept few recordings - had several good ones on Dischi Ricordi but sold them when I was thinning the collection of postwar music and turning back more to "standard repertory". I would recommend the quiet/delicate
Fragmente - Stille, an Diotima (1980, string quartet, somewhat of a watershed piece) and as a contrast, (especially) the earlier
como una ola de fuerza y luz (1971/2), which is incredibly fiery and intense. Only recording I have of the latter (plus
Epitaffio #1 and #3) is pretty good IMO:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Kq5h7KAvL._SX425_.jpg)
I suspect physical recordings may be thin on the ground, downloads perhaps the way to go.
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 05, 2020, 04:02:23 PM
I have been listening a bit to La Lontananza lately. I have the recording with Melise Mellinger and Salvatore Sciarrino. I find it an extremely opaque, arcane work, and yet also hypnotizing. Nono seems to have done the impossible with this work. I'm impressed, even if I don't fully understand what I'm hearing (and perhaps never will).
I'm tempted to purchase the Kremer/DG recording, which is a good 20 minutes shorter. Any opinions on one vs the other?
Is this quite representative of his music? I can't recall hearing another note of his music outside of this work. Where to next, from here?
The Kremer is quite extrovert. Miranda Cuckson is one I like very much because it is very colourful. I've also enjoyed Arditti because he's spiritual. At some level, I think this music is an exploration of colour.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61rh6lMC2wL._AC_.jpg)
The utopia is, for Nono, the left, socialism. It's not part of the present, socialism has come to nothing, hence lontananza nostalgica. And the format has the violinist moving round the stage from score to score - like a search, a quest, a pilgrimage. That sense of searching, a ricercar, should come out in the music alone, on a CD.
As far as where to go next with Nono, I'm absolutely clear about that. Prometeo.
From Miranda Cuckson's website - my bold
Quote"La lontananza nostalgica utopica futura" distills Nono's manifold lifelong preoccupations – philosophy, politics, history, theater, text, spatialization, improvisation, real-world sounds, electronics and amplification – into the relatively simple medium of solo violin and 8-track tape. The work requires a highly spatialized eight-channel speaker configuration for the electronics, and the violin soloist also wanders among the audience during the performance. Previous stereo recordings did not capture this crucial aspect of the work. The DTS-CD version of this new recording endeavors to present the work as the composer intended: a "surround-sound" experience. In addition, this recording also includes an element overlooked by previous recordings: vocalizations from the violin soloist that are pivotal to Nono's intentions. In the words of Miranda Cuckson, "Nono's indications for the violinist to sing illuminate the fundamentally lyrical, almost operatic quality at the heart of the work: the piece is truly a 'madrigal' as Nono described it."
My least favorite is Mellinger/Sciarrino, actually. Arditti/Richard is my favorite, with Kremer/Gubaidulina a close second. Colombo/di Scipio available on YT has a generous amount of reverb and it is an engrossing performance.
I have attended a couple of performances of the work with Miranda Cuckson performing (I don't have the release mentioned, so can't really compare) and it was the first time I have witnessed the "singing along" take on the work. It was probably the shortest 45-50 mins in concert of my life.
The live performance I saw (Mark Menzies, NYC, 2001) did not include the vocalizations. Excellent program, though (Lachenmann/Nono).
https://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/09/arts/music-review-carefully-scraping-along-with-the-senses-atingle.html
Here's the situation. You have distance (or remoteness), you have the future, you have a utopia, and you have nostalgia. Well, a utopia in the future is not so difficult an idea nor that the future is distant. Nostalgia is a usually seen as a desire for the past, the good old days, but remoteness is just as important for nostalgia as "pastness" is, and the future is just as remote as the past. Being nostalgic about the future gives a nice little kick to things, the same kind of kick as "Back to the Future" gives. "I remember (and yearn for) a utopia in the distant future" kind of thing. Nostalgia points backwards so turning it around to make it point forwards lets you (encourages you) to think about both the future and the past differently than you did before.
Besides all that, both "utopia" and "nostalgia" are ferociously ironic terms. Ostensibly good, but whatever goodness there is is often understood as masking something that's essentially bad.
Nostalgia for a remote future utopia.
In 2014 The Minguet Quartet gave a concert to celebrate Nono's 90th birthday. The final piece was Fragmente Stille, but before it they played a transcription of an Ockeghem song, and a movement from op 132 (LvB) and a movement from the Verdi quartet - these other pieces were supposed to have influenced Nono in his quartet.
Does anyone know anything about these influences of Ockeghem, Beethoven and Verdi?
If anyone wants the concert recording I can let them have it. It's a radio broadcast with comments from a presenter in German, which may or may not answer my question above - I can't understand German.
Quote from: Mandryka on August 28, 2020, 12:40:08 AM
In 2014 The Minguet Quartet gave a concert to celebrate Nono's 90th birthday. The final piece was Fragmente Stille, but before it they played a transcription of an Ockeghem song, and a movement from op 132 (LvB) and a movement from the Verdi quartet - these other pieces were supposed to have influenced Nono in his quartet.
Does anyone know anything about these influences of Ockeghem, Beethoven and Verdi?
The work was commissioned by the city of Bonn for the 30th Beethovenfest and includes the performance instructions
mit innigster Empfindung and
sotto voce borrowed from the slow movement of B's op. 132.
Quotemuch more important to me was Beethoven's idea of using a special kind of material, the Lydian mode, for this thanksgiving. And I, too, have used a special material, the scala enigmatica by Verdi [from his Ave Maria], in order to thank various people in various ways.
Sketches refer to Scherchen, who discussed Verdi's
Ave Maria in his conducting course in Venice in 1948.
The same sketch mentions Maderna and
Malor me bat, ascribed to Ockeghem, including the notated opening of the work under headings "Ockeghem (Odhecaton A 1504)" and "Bruno 1948" (referring to the classes Maderna taught at the time during which
Malor me bat was arranged for performance). There is also a scribbled "Verdi-Scherchen-Ave Maria" tied to "Ockeghem-Bruno-Ave Maria".
Quote from: Mandryka on August 28, 2020, 12:40:08 AM
If anyone wants the concert recording I can let them have it. It's a radio broadcast with comments from a presenter in German, which may or may not answer my question above - I can't understand German.
That would be great, thanks.
If you can read French, here's an article on Nono's string quartet where you can find all answers to your question.
https://books.openedition.org/contrechamps/1615
The original is in German. There is an Italian translation in the book "Nono" (Aa.Vv., EDT 1986) which I own.
I don't know if it has ever been translated in English.
Quote from: GioCar on August 28, 2020, 05:29:22 AM
If you can read French, here's an article on Nono's string quartet where you can find all answers to your question.
https://books.openedition.org/contrechamps/1615
The original is in German. There is an Italian translation in the book "Nono" (Aa.Vv., EDT 1986) which I own.
I don't know if it has ever been translated in English.
Excellent, thanks. It looks as though it's available in French as an e-book
https://www.7switch.com/fr/ebook/9782940599103/luigi-nono
(And I noticed that Nono's writings in French is also available
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ecrits-1CD-audio-Luigi-Nono/dp/2940068291/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=contrechamps+nono&qid=1598623895&sr=8-2)
Quote from: Mandryka on August 28, 2020, 06:12:14 AM
(And I noticed that Nono's writings in French is also available
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ecrits-1CD-audio-Luigi-Nono/dp/2940068291/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=contrechamps+nono&qid=1598623895&sr=8-2)
The Contrechamps book is an enlarged and updated collection of writings initially gathered in the 1993 Christian Bourgois edition:
https://www.amazon.com/Ecrits-Luigi-Nono/dp/2267011522
The latter is more or less what is available in English in
Nostalgia for the Future:
https://www.amazon.com/Nostalgia-Future-Interviews-California-20th-Century/dp/0520291204
(I have all 3 but only read the Bourgois edition)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81IXhfa4slL._SS500_.jpg)
Very much enjoying the piece for tuba and all sorts of electronic hocus pocus on this CD, called Post Prae Ludium 3 Babaar. I think it sounds like Sciarrino - the same plaintive vocal sounds from the instrument.
Quote from: Mandryka on November 29, 2020, 10:08:26 AM
Very much enjoying the piece for tuba and all sorts of electronic hocus pocus on this CD, called Post Prae Ludium 3 Babaar. I think it sounds like Sciarrino - the same plaintive vocal sounds from the instrument.
When I saw the title "Post Prae Ludium 3 Babaar" I initially thought it was a typo for the well-known piece
Post-Prae Ludium per Donau, like something had gone wrong with your phone keyboard. But now I see from Nono's list of works that
Post-prae-ludium No. 3, "BAAB-ARR", for piccolo and live electronics (1988), actually existed. However, it was never recorded by the Experimentalstudio team on that NEOS three-volume set, on the grounds that "Una nuova esecuzione di Baab-arr non è possibile: non abbiamo a disposizione né un abbozzo, né schizzi (se non per live electronics) di Luigi Nono." Thanks for drawing my attention to that old recording of it.
Quote from: CRCulver on November 29, 2020, 10:54:06 AM
When I saw the title "Post Prae Ludium 3 Babaar" I initially thought it was a typo for the well-known piece Post-Prae Ludium per Donau, like something had gone wrong with your phone keyboard. But now I see from Nono's list of works that Post-prae-ludium No. 3, "BAAB-ARR", for piccolo and live electronics (1988), actually existed. However, it was never recorded by the Experimentalstudio team on that NEOS three-volume set, on the grounds that "Una nuova esecuzione di Baab-arr non è possibile: non abbiamo a disposizione né un abbozzo, né schizzi (se non per live electronics) di Luigi Nono." Thanks for drawing my attention to that old recording of it.
If you type
Baab-arr into spotify or qobuz, it won't find it!
Are you sure it is No. 3 and not No. 1? I remember searching high and low for a recording of No. 3 until the people at the Archivio mentioned that the piece was actually never finished, much less recorded. Also, all results I got from that disc indicated it was a repackaging of a previous released by Col Legno, which has No. 1 and not No. 3.
Quote from: petrarch on November 29, 2020, 11:44:29 AM
Are you sure it is No. 3 and not No. 1? I remember searching high and low for a recording of No. 3 until the people at the Archivio mentioned that the piece was actually never finished, much less recorded. Also, all results I got from that disc indicated it was a repackaging of a previous released by Col Legno, which has No. 1 and not No. 3.
It is tagged number 3, babarr, but I see that number 3 is not for tuba, it's for picolo. So you may be right.
Quote from: Mandryka on November 29, 2020, 11:54:34 AM
It is tagged number 3, babarr, but I see that number 3 is not for tuba, it's for picolo. So you may be right.
It is incorrectly tagged. The performer would be Fabbriciani in No. 3, and not Schiaffini.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ThZaRMCY4s
There is also a video documentary with Schiaffini and Fabbriciani and they talk about the challenges in realizing the pieces. They show the extant sketches for No. 3 (IIRC a single line or two of notation).
This is the original release on Col Legno:
https://www.discogs.com/Nono-Orchestral-Works-Chamber-Music/release/4408931
Good to see some activity in this thread. Nono is cool composer. I need to revisit the recordings I own.
The booklet essay on Fusi's La Lontananza Nostalgica, which I'm starting to explore.
https://www.kairos-music.com/sites/default/files/downloads/0015086KAI_nono_webbooklet.pdf
Currently reading this and enjoying it very much:
[asin]0367733064[/asin]
Quote from: petrarch on January 15, 2021, 12:30:44 PM
Currently reading this and enjoying it very much:
[asin]0367733064[/asin]
Same here, I've been listening to Das Atmende Klarsein all day and I found that the comments in the book help get it into perspective.