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The Music Room => General Classical Music Discussion => The Polling Station => Topic started by: Florestan on May 15, 2021, 11:49:33 AM

Poll
Question: How Romantic Are You?
Option 1: Definitely Romantic votes: 7
Option 2: Somehow Romantic votes: 2
Option 3: Neutral votes: 5
Option 4: Somehow Non-Romantic votes: 1
Option 5: Definitely Non-Romantic votes: 1
Option 6: Anti-Romantic votes: 0
Title: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: Florestan on May 15, 2021, 11:49:33 AM
Considering your tastes and preferences, not only in music, but also in literature, painting and other arts, what are you?

Take Romanticism not as much as a strictly circumscribed movement but rather as a psychological disposition / state of mind and soul.

Thanks for participating. Discuss at will.



Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: ritter on May 15, 2021, 11:59:50 AM
I'm "definitely non-romantic ", but you knew that already, didn't you?  ;)

Good evening, Andrei.
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: Florestan on May 15, 2021, 12:04:22 PM
Quote from: ritter on May 15, 2021, 11:59:50 AM
I'm "definitely non-romantic ", but you knew that already, didn't you?  ;)

Good evening, Andrei.

Good evening, Rafael.

Of course I suspected as much. ;)

I voted "Definitely Romantic", but you knew that already, didn't you? ;)
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: Florestan on May 15, 2021, 12:10:49 PM
Two quotes to give you an idea of what I mean by Romantic(ism).

"Poetry heals the wounds inflicted by reason."

"To romanticize the world is to make us aware of the magic, mystery and wonder of the world; it is to educate the senses to see the ordinary as extraordinary, the familiar as strange, the mundane as sacred, the finite as infinite."

Novalis
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: foxandpeng on May 15, 2021, 12:38:54 PM
Taking Burke's definition of the Romantic sublime  and the sense of awe alongside the appreciation of beauty, then yes! I love Romanticism in poetry (Charlotte Smith, Lakeland poets, etc) and paintings such as  Caspar David Friedrich's Wanderer.

Romanticism in music really floats my boat.
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: Florestan on May 15, 2021, 01:34:59 PM
Then there's this:

If a man could pass through Paradise in a dream, and have a flower presented to him as a pledge that his soul had really been there, and if he found that flower in his hand when he awoke - Aye! and what then?

And this:

To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.





Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: Karl Henning on May 15, 2021, 02:50:00 PM
Quote from: Florestan on May 15, 2021, 12:10:49 PM
Two quotes to give you an idea of what I mean by Romantic(ism).

"Poetry heals the wounds inflicted by reason."

"To romanticize the world is to make us aware of the magic, mystery and wonder of the world; it is to educate the senses to see the ordinary as extraordinary, the familiar as strange, the mundane as sacred, the finite as infinite."

Novalis

Novalis is wonderful, and how Romantic, to ascribe the cause of wounds to Reason.
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: Mirror Image on May 15, 2021, 07:27:29 PM
I voted 'Definitely Romantic', but, honestly, my tastes could be aligned with many 'schools of thought' I suppose.
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: steve ridgway on May 15, 2021, 09:30:51 PM
I'm "Definitely Romantic" in attitude, it's just that I need something more otherworldly than Classical Romantic music to experience the state of awe.
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: greg on May 15, 2021, 09:56:16 PM
Yeah, definitely, just in the broad sense of the word, not in the modern sense (don't care much for flowers, not really into poetry, either, don't care for the Romance genre for movies, etc.).

Conquering and exploring the world is where it's at. Mahler, long-ass JRPGs, epic anime like One Piece, the feeling of endless ambition....

Though the only other aesthetic style which may tie it is surrealism. And then Horror after that. Need that darkness and cerebral stuff as well.

A fusion of surrealism and Romanticism is something I'd like to see more of. I felt like I experienced that for the first time, truly, after playing Shin Megami Tense 3: Nocturne for the first time.

In Post-Apocalyptic Tokyo (destroyed by a cult), the world is filled with only demons, and the few humans you know that still are alive become crazed with power fantasies. That is because they are competing to make their own radical ideologies the foundation of the rebirth of the world, which dies and is reborn in cycles. While you as a player are left to either join or defeat everyone, without any friends at all, on your own, to overthrow Satan and become the most powerful (all while never making an ideology). And the whole game has some incredibly bizarre places, and the permeating sense of emptiness. Wish I knew of more stuff like this.

Before, years ago, I had wanted to see that fusion of surrealism and Romanticism so I managed see some works of art sooort of with that idea (later artists putting a more Romantic styling on MC Escher's ideas, this in a book I still own). But still left a bit to be desired.




That theme, the setting, if it's not some form of surrealist or morbid Romanticism then idk what it is lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJPWzbJqm94
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: Mandryka on May 16, 2021, 12:00:18 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 15, 2021, 12:10:49 PM
Two quotes to give you an idea of what I mean by Romantic(ism).

"Poetry heals the wounds inflicted by reason."

"To romanticize the world is to make us aware of the magic, mystery and wonder of the world; it is to educate the senses to see the ordinary as extraordinary, the familiar as strange, the mundane as sacred, the finite as infinite."

Novalis

What is odd for me is that if I think of some typical romantic composers - Chopin or Brahms or Liszt - I really don't understand how their music relates to these ideas of Novalis. And yet if I take some typically modernist composers - Karlheinz Stockhausen and Walter Zimmermann or Francisco Lopez or John Cage or John Zorn - I can see the tie to  Novalis's ideas.  Even Ritter's favourite Pierre Boulez seems quite close to « educate the senses to see the ordinary as extraordinary, the familiar as strange, the mundane as sacred, the finite as infinite.« in, for example, Marteau sans Maître and Pli selon Pli.

I conclude that either I've misunderstood something or Novalis's concept of romanticism is not very useful.
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: Florestan on May 16, 2021, 05:48:24 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 16, 2021, 12:00:18 AM
What is odd for me is that if I think of some typical romantic composers - Chopin or Brahms or Liszt - I really don't understand how their music relates to these ideas of Novalis. And yet if I take some typically modernist composers - Karlheinz Stockhausen and Walter Zimmermann or Francisco Lopez or John Cage or John Zorn - I can see the tie to  Novalis's ideas.  Even Ritter's favourite Pierre Boulez seems quite close to « educate the senses to see the ordinary as extraordinary, the familiar as strange, the mundane as sacred, the finite as infinite.« in, for example, Marteau sans Maître and Pli selon Pli.

I conclude that either I've misunderstood something or Novalis's concept of romanticism is not very useful.

Some quick thoughts.

Chopin: what is a waltz? an ordinary dance. What did he turn it into? Something extraordinary. What genres did he excel at? Short, ie extremely finite, piano pieces --- yet they reveal to us the infinite nuances and shades of human soul.

Liszt: "the mundane as sacred" fits him like a glove, actually.

Brahms: he used mostly classical, ie familiar, forms --- yet he is one of the most enigmatic composers, hiding his ardent, heart-on-sleeve, extra-musically-inspired romanticism behind a deceptive mask of objective and abstract classicism.

I've not heard a single note of Stockhausen and what little Boulez I've heard did not give me any incentive to explore further --- but it might very well be the case that they fit in Novalis' conception.

Food for thought: romantic content in un-romantic language?
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: Florestan on May 16, 2021, 06:10:53 AM
My own theory is that romanticism is first and foremost a psychological disposition, an innate state of mind and soul which is not dependent on place and time. Romantic composers and writers, romantic artists in general, romantic people in general, have existed long before the advent of Romanticism proper and continued to exist long after Romanticism proper disappeared.

All of the above is valid also for classicism, actually.
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: Mirror Image on May 16, 2021, 06:50:31 AM
Quote from: steve ridgway on May 15, 2021, 09:30:51 PM
I'm "Definitely Romantic" in attitude, it's just that I need something more otherworldly than Classical Romantic music to experience the state of awe.

You can't possibly get any more otherworldly than Debussy or Scriabin. Even though both of these composers have ties with Romanticism, it is their attitude and, as a result of this attitude, their music that gives the impression that it goes well beyond this planet. Do clear your head and give these two composers a listen. I know you have a penchant for post-war avant-garde, but these two composers were as avant-garde as you could get back at the turn of the 20th Century.
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: Florestan on May 16, 2021, 07:03:15 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 16, 2021, 06:50:31 AM
You can't possibly get any more otherworldly than Debussy or Scriabin. Even though both of these composers have ties with Romanticism, it is their attitude and, as a result of this attitude, their music that gives the impression that it goes well beyond this planet. Do clear your head and give these two composers a listen. I know you have a penchant for post-war avant-garde, but these two composers were as avant-garde as you could get back at the turn of the 20th Century.

I'll give you Scriabin as otherworldly, albeit more in attitude than in music --- he was clearly and undoubtedly a madman. Debussy, otoh, strikes me as very much of this world: his music is a sensuous celebration of nature.  :D
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: Mandryka on May 16, 2021, 07:35:16 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 16, 2021, 05:48:24 AM
Some quick thoughts.

Chopin: what is a waltz? an ordinary dance. What did he turn it into? Something extraordinary.



Yes, I see this. Of course, Mozart wrote extraordinary dances and so did Bach and Susato.  It has to be that the distinctive thing that Chopin did with the popular dance form make it romantic in expression -- I'm sure it could be argued, but it sounds like a serious seminar paper!

Quote from: Florestan on May 16, 2021, 05:48:24 AM

Liszt: "the mundane as sacred" fits him like a glove, actually.



It doesn't feel right to me, that's to say I don't recognise mundanity in most Liszt, maybe in the Hungarian rhapsodies but not generally, and least of all in the music with a whiff of the sacred. But I should say that I don't know his music very well.

Quote from: Florestan on May 16, 2021, 05:48:24 AM

Brahms: he used mostly classical, ie familiar, forms --- yet he is one of the most enigmatic composers, hiding his ardent, heart-on-sleeve, extra-musically-inspired romanticism behind a deceptive mask of objective and abstract classicism.


I don't know his music well enough to argue, but I want to say that this is a different sort of romanticism than Novalis's

Quote from: Florestan on May 16, 2021, 05:48:24 AM


. .  Stockhausen and what little Boulez . .
Food for thought: romantic content in un-romantic language?

This thought occurred to me too but I dismissed it because I couldn't make out a link between Common Practice Tonality and the sort of romanticism in Novalis.
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: Mirror Image on May 16, 2021, 07:49:41 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 16, 2021, 07:03:15 AM
I'll give you Scriabin as otherworldly, albeit more in attitude than in music --- he was clearly and undoubtedly a madman. Debussy, otoh, strikes me as very much of this world: his music is a sensuous celebration of nature.  :D

There are parts of Préludes, Images, Estampes, Pelléas et Mélisande et. al. that transcend this existence to my ears and take my mind to another plane entirely. Agree to disagree, this is merely what I hear and feel within his music.
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: steve ridgway on May 16, 2021, 10:09:24 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 16, 2021, 06:50:31 AM
You can't possibly get any more otherworldly than Debussy or Scriabin. Even though both of these composers have ties with Romanticism, it is their attitude and, as a result of this attitude, their music that gives the impression that it goes well beyond this planet. Do clear your head and give these two composers a listen. I know you have a penchant for post-war avant-garde, but these two composers were as avant-garde as you could get back at the turn of the 20th Century.

Hmm there is some of their stuff on archive.org. :-\
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: greg on May 16, 2021, 11:50:36 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 16, 2021, 06:10:53 AM
My own theory is that romanticism is first and foremost a psychological disposition, an innate state of mind and soul which is not dependent on place and time. Romantic composers and writers, romantic artists in general, romantic people in general, have existed long before the advent of Romanticism proper and continued to exist long after Romanticism proper disappeared.

All of the above is valid also for classicism, actually.
Look up enneagram type 4.

Consensus of 20 people say Mahler was type 4. I 100% agree, it is beyond obvious. He is a perfect example IMO.

https://www.personality-database.com/profile/23933/gustav-mahler-classical-mbti-personality-type

QuoteBreakdown of 20 Enneagram vote(s)
4w5   (18)

1w9   (1)

5w4   (1)


And on the official enneagram site, it lists him as well.
https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/type-4


QuoteI am thrice homeless, as a native of Bohemia in Austria, as an Austrian among Germans, and as a Jew throughout the world. Everywhere an intruder, never welcomed.
Read more at https://www.brainyquote.com/authors/gustav-mahler-quotes
QuoteYou must renounce all superficiality, all convention, all vanity and delusion.
Read more at https://www.brainyquote.com/authors/gustav-mahler-quotes
QuoteEnneagram Four with a Five-Wing: "The Bohemian"

QuoteBasic Fear: That they have no identity or personal significance
Basic Desire: To find themselves and their significance (to create an
   identity)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/Caspar_David_Friedrich_-_Wanderer_above_the_sea_of_fog.jpg)
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: steve ridgway on May 16, 2021, 10:38:32 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 16, 2021, 06:50:31 AM
You can't possibly get any more otherworldly than Debussy or Scriabin. Even though both of these composers have ties with Romanticism, it is their attitude and, as a result of this attitude, their music that gives the impression that it goes well beyond this planet. Do clear your head and give these two composers a listen. I know you have a penchant for post-war avant-garde, but these two composers were as avant-garde as you could get back at the turn of the 20th Century.

OK, I have listened but for me they don't evoke the right associations. Possibly my notions of sublimity are linked more to vast space, the cosmos, alien worlds and therefore incomprehensible, absorbing or sci-fi sounds. :-\
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2021, 06:13:14 AM
Quote from: steve ridgway on May 16, 2021, 10:38:32 PM
OK, I have listened but for me they don't evoke the right associations. Possibly my notions of sublimity are linked more to vast space, the cosmos, alien worlds and therefore incomprehensible, absorbing or sci-fi sounds. :-\

From what you listened to, you only listened to Debussy orchestral works and I was referring to his solo piano music. Debussy didn't actually compose much music for a full orchestra. The same can be said for Scriabin. Anyway, it's obvious that your bias for post-war avant-garde has permeated your listening habits. As much as I love innovation and forward-thinking music, I don't think this is actually a criteria for good music-making. What matters most is whether it affects your heart and mind. In the listening thread, you continuously referred Debussy as film music, which is an ignorant statement, especially since you have seem to have no understanding of the time period in which this composer is from. You barely listened to Scriabin before deciding that he sounds exactly like Debussy. ::) These two composers were at the forefront of musical thought during their time, but, more importantly, they wrote damn good music that anyone with an ear could enjoy.
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: steve ridgway on May 17, 2021, 06:20:36 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 17, 2021, 06:13:14 AM
From what you listened to, you only listened to Debussy orchestral works and I was referring to his solo piano music. Debussy didn't actually compose much music for a full orchestra. The same can be said for Scriabin. Anyway, it's obvious that your bias for post-war avant-garde has permeated your listening habits. As much as I love innovation and forward-thinking music, I don't think this is actually a criteria for good music-making. What matters most is whether it affects your heart and mind. In the listening thread, you continuously referred Debussy as film music, which is an ignorant statement, especially since you have seem to have no understanding of the time period in which this composer is from. You barely listened to Scriabin before deciding that he sounds exactly like Debussy. ::) These two composers were at the forefront of musical thought during their time, but, more importantly, they wrote damn good music that anyone with an ear could enjoy.

I know Debussy didn't write for films, it's my own personal associations based on my childhood memories that colour it. Maybe if I'd never heard anything like this before it'd work for me. My heart and mind are what matter to me, but as they are now they're not affected much by this sort of sound.
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: Karl Henning on May 17, 2021, 06:24:03 AM
Quote from: steve ridgway on May 17, 2021, 06:20:36 AM
I know Debussy didn't write for films, it's my own personal associations based on my childhood memories that colour it. Maybe if I'd never heard anything like this before it'd work for me. My heart and mind are what matter to me, but as they are now they're not affected much by this sort of sound.

No argument to be made with that.
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2021, 06:31:31 AM
Quote from: steve ridgway on May 17, 2021, 06:20:36 AM
I know Debussy didn't write for films, it's my own personal associations based on my childhood memories that colour it. Maybe if I'd never heard anything like this before it'd work for me. My heart and mind are what matter to me, but as they are now they're not affected much by this sort of sound.

There's nothing worse than having some outside association color your opinion of a composer's music. You might as well be listening with a soundproof wall between your ears and the music. If I approached Boulez or Xenakis with the same kind associations as you did Debussy and Scriabin, wouldn't you think that I would be doing a disservice to the composer? If you don't like the music, just say you don't like it. It's perfectly okay for you to admit that you're a post-war avant-garde guy and cannot tolerate anything that doesn't follow this same kind of pattern. There's no reason to make excuses for it. We all have our blindspots and music that we can't stand.
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: Karl Henning on May 17, 2021, 06:35:31 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 17, 2021, 06:31:31 AM
There's nothing worse than having some outside association color your opinion of a composer's music. You might as well be listening with a soundproof wall between your ears and the music. If I approached Boulez or Xenakis with the same kind associations as you did Debussy and Scriabin, wouldn't you think that I would be doing a disservice to the composer? If you don't like the music, just say you don't like it. It's perfectly okay for you to admit that you're a post-war avant-garde guy and cannot tolerate anything that doesn't follow this same kind of pattern. There's no reason to make excuses for it. We all have our blindspots and music that we can't stand.

John, you're saying things that Steve just ain't saying.  I see no "cannot tolerate" in his comments, whatever.  I don't read any "excuses" in his honest replies.  Let a chap have his own ears.
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2021, 06:38:30 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 17, 2021, 06:35:31 AM
John, you're saying things that Steve just ain't saying.  I see no "cannot tolerate" in his comments, whatever.  I don't read any "excuses" in his honest replies.  Let a chap have his own ears.

He literally just said that his outside associations were coloring his listening to Debussy and Scriabin. My qualm was this does a disservice to the composer's music.
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: steve ridgway on May 17, 2021, 07:03:08 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 17, 2021, 06:38:30 AM
He literally just said that his outside associations were coloring his listening to Debussy and Scriabin. My qualm was this does a disservice to the composer's music.

Music should never have been appropriated for films and even less so for commercials then we could all have enjoyed just listening to it untainted. :(
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2021, 07:13:30 AM
Quote from: steve ridgway on May 17, 2021, 07:03:08 AM
Music should never have been appropriated for films and even less so for commercials then we could all have enjoyed just listening to it untainted. :(

Well, you should strike out we and insert you, because when I listen to music, I listen to it for what it is in that moment. I love Ligeti and early Penderecki, for example, and their music was used in films, but I don't associate their music with any films at all when I'm listening to it in the moment. I love a plethora of ballet music, but I don't really care anything about watching the dancing or understand its choreography. I love many operas, but I seldom follow the action on stage aside from having read a synopsis. I probably have an unhealthy attitude towards classical music in that I'm not open not to all eras. I don't derive much pleasure from music from the Baroque or Classical Eras, but I freely admit that the fault lies with me and I'm okay with that, because I'm not someone that likes everything he hears. But there are zero outside associations that color this opinion, it's merely my own ears and what I gravitate towards.
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: Karl Henning on May 17, 2021, 09:32:25 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 17, 2021, 06:38:30 AM
He literally just said that his outside associations were coloring his listening to Debussy and Scriabin. My qualm was this does a disservice to the composer's music.

That qualm is one thing.  Your mischaracterization of his remarks as making excuses for not tolerating any music at all does our fellow GMG'er a disservice, yes?
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: Karl Henning on May 17, 2021, 09:33:11 AM
Quote from: steve ridgway on May 17, 2021, 07:03:08 AM
Music should never have been appropriated for films and even less so for commercials then we could all have enjoyed just listening to it untainted. :(

That horse just may be out the barn already 8)
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: steve ridgway on May 17, 2021, 09:47:27 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 17, 2021, 09:33:11 AM
That horse just may be out the barn already 8)

Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: Mandryka on May 17, 2021, 10:15:35 AM
Quote from: steve ridgway on May 16, 2021, 10:38:32 PM
Possibly my notions of sublimity are linked more to vast space, the cosmos, alien worlds and therefore incomprehensible, absorbing or sci-fi sounds. :-\

Have you heard Scriabin's sonatas 9 and 10?

Quote from: steve ridgway on May 17, 2021, 06:20:36 AM
I know Debussy didn't write for films,

Indeed but I was amused to find this on the interweb (my emphasis)

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/330543702_Claude_Debussy_and_film_music

QuoteDuring French composer Claude Debussy's (1862-1918) lifetime, the film just appeared as anew art. Nevertheless, possibilities of the "moving photograph" preoccupied his imagination. There are no data that he composed anything for early films, but his picturesque music, often inspired by paintings and literary works, shows that he his thoughts were inspired by manners similar to film language. Debussy's compositions (especially Clair de lune from Suite bergamasque) was often used in different film genres - from animated and science-fiction movies to crime films. Composition techniques used by Claude Debussy also helped film composers to articulate their music in different visual surroundings. Among them are: Bernard Herrmann, who used Debussy's idea of "parallel sonorities" in Vertigo (1958) and other Alfred Hitchcock's movies; and John Williams, who adopted usage of modal music and bitonality in order to show unusual situations in many of Steven Spielberg's science-fiction stories, especially in Artificial Intelligence (2001). Among analyzed films, the most fascinating is usage of Clair de lune in Stephen Soderbergh's Ocean's 11 (2001). There the music doesn't only point out narrative and metaphoric references to visuals, but also participates in creating the structure of certain film scenes. This kind of usage of Debussy's music shows that it doesn't function well only in special settings of unspecified stories; despite its poetic and lyrical content, Debussy's Clair de lune functions in a more contemporary context, even side by side with contemporary popular music.

Right. I've finished trolling for now.
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: Mandryka on May 17, 2021, 10:23:30 AM
Actually no, not finished trolling. This is for Steve

https://www.youtube.com/v/Im_N8qD4Yws&ab_channel=ChristopherMacIntyre
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2021, 01:00:11 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 17, 2021, 09:32:25 AM
That qualm is one thing.  Your mischaracterization of his remarks as making excuses for not tolerating any music at all does our fellow GMG'er a disservice, yes?

Honestly, I'm not concerned nor worried about what I said, Karl. I said what I wanted to and that's all I'm going to say. We shouldn't be so sensitive to the point where someone can't speak their mind. I knew there would be retaliation in what I said. There always is when one is being honest.
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2021, 01:18:24 PM
Also, if Steve was offended by anything I wrote to him, then I'll gladly apologize. I know I can be abrasive sometimes, but when people who are passionate about something that is well beyond them, they are bound to make assertions that cut a bit along the way. If you love this music, then none of us are free of saying such things.
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: mabuse on May 17, 2021, 02:54:49 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 17, 2021, 10:23:30 AM
Actually no, not finished trolling. This is for Steve

https://www.youtube.com/v/Im_N8qD4Yws&ab_channel=ChristopherMacIntyre

:o

I didn't know Isao Tomita... Is he famous ?
https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mJSj-785Ujz2cedEUlWGjUZ73hFe0z6uE (https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mJSj-785Ujz2cedEUlWGjUZ73hFe0z6uE)
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: Karl Henning on May 17, 2021, 04:24:23 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 17, 2021, 01:00:11 PM
Honestly, I'm not concerned nor worried about what I said, Karl. I said what I wanted to and that's all I'm going to say. We shouldn't be so sensitive to the point where someone can't speak their mind. I knew there would be retaliation in what I said. There always is when one is being honest.

I am very sorry if you feel my remarks were retaliatory, John.
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2021, 05:09:26 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 17, 2021, 04:24:23 PM
I am very sorry if you feel my remarks were retaliatory, John.

Oh, I didn't mean to make the implication that you were acting in this manner. Perhaps I used the wrong word, but I was just talking about that I was bound to get a strong reaction by my assertions. I know you're not vindictive person, Karl. Thank you for your apology, but there really was nothing to apologize for, my friend.
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: Mandryka on May 17, 2021, 07:35:44 PM
Quote from: mabuse on May 17, 2021, 02:54:49 PM
:o

I didn't know Isao Tomita... Is he famous ?
https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mJSj-785Ujz2cedEUlWGjUZ73hFe0z6uE (https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mJSj-785Ujz2cedEUlWGjUZ73hFe0z6uE)

Yes, I think so, like Wendy Carlos.
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: steve ridgway on May 17, 2021, 09:06:12 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 17, 2021, 10:23:30 AM
Actually no, not finished trolling. This is for Steve

https://www.youtube.com/v/Im_N8qD4Yws&ab_channel=ChristopherMacIntyre

Thanks Mandryka, the synth sounds worked very well for that piece. :)
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: steve ridgway on May 17, 2021, 09:10:42 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 17, 2021, 01:18:24 PM
Also, if Steve was offended by anything I wrote to him, then I'll gladly apologize. I know I can be abrasive sometimes, but when people who are passionate about something that is well beyond them, they are bound to make assertions that cut a bit along the way. If you love this music, then none of us are free of saying such things.

I'm not offended; I found out something about why I enjoy some styles of music more than others.
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: steve ridgway on May 17, 2021, 09:30:11 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 17, 2021, 10:15:35 AM
Have you heard Scriabin's sonatas 9 and 10?

They seem OK although this artwork suggests a lot more to me than a piano piece. :-\

(https://img.discogs.com/m6Ec9Pr4uvvyOmi9nHGVSgEuaZY=/fit-in/500x500/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-6725895-1425398917-5466.jpeg.jpg)
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: Mandryka on May 18, 2021, 12:16:39 AM
Quote from: steve ridgway on May 17, 2021, 09:30:11 PM
They seem OK although this artwork suggests a lot more to me than a piano piece. :-\

(https://img.discogs.com/m6Ec9Pr4uvvyOmi9nHGVSgEuaZY=/fit-in/500x500/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-6725895-1425398917-5466.jpeg.jpg)

If find the later music really unsettling, and not in a good way, I always regret listening to it. The earlier Chopin like music is, IMO, utterly uninteresting apart from one rather beautiful op 9/2 nocturne, which is cute.
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: amw on May 18, 2021, 05:15:22 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 18, 2021, 12:16:39 AM
If find the later music really unsettling, and not in a good way, I always regret listening to it. The earlier Chopin like music is, IMO, utterly uninteresting apart from one rather beautiful op 9/2 nocturne, which is cute.
I enjoy most of Scriabin's piano music but even in the late works I wouldn't call it romantic necessarily. There's a lot of exact repetition of melodies and phrases and even lengthy sections, sometimes simply transposed slightly. He went out of his way to try to impose classical structures on his material, no matter how "synthetic" it was, and was very concerned with symmetry and form etc. He's a classicist basically, a formalist in the non-derogatory sense of the term. Maybe it's for that reason that I've always preferred the piano music of Roslavets and the criminally under-recorded Wyschnegradsky (whose problem is clearly that he decided to romanize his name that way, but writing for quarter tone pianos probably didn't help). By comparison Scriabin 10 feels a lot like a long, slow Scarlatti sonata. (I like Scarlatti sonatas too.)
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: Mandryka on May 18, 2021, 06:42:09 AM
Quote from: amw on May 18, 2021, 05:15:22 AM
I enjoy most of Scriabin's piano music but even in the late works I wouldn't call it romantic necessarily. There's a lot of exact repetition of melodies and phrases and even lengthy sections, sometimes simply transposed slightly. He went out of his way to try to impose classical structures on his material, no matter how "synthetic" it was, and was very concerned with symmetry and form etc. He's a classicist basically, a formalist in the non-derogatory sense of the term. Maybe it's for that reason that I've always preferred the piano music of Roslavets and the criminally under-recorded Wyschnegradsky (whose problem is clearly that he decided to romanize his name that way, but writing for quarter tone pianos probably didn't help). By comparison Scriabin 10 feels a lot like a long, slow Scarlatti sonata. (I like Scarlatti sonatas too.)

Sure but we were not working with formal concepts of romanticism, classicism. Andrei quoted some definitions from Novalis, which I thought was only dubiously useful really, and Steve wants a feeling close, maybe, to Kant's sublime.

Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: Mandryka on May 18, 2021, 06:47:42 AM
Quote from: steve ridgway on May 17, 2021, 09:30:11 PM
They seem OK although this artwork suggests a lot more to me than a piano piece. :-\

(https://img.discogs.com/m6Ec9Pr4uvvyOmi9nHGVSgEuaZY=/fit-in/500x500/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-6725895-1425398917-5466.jpeg.jpg)

I just noticed the sexy lady on that cover and there is indeed something sexy about some of Scriabin -- unless it's just me being pervy. This for example

https://www.youtube.com/v/oqEBPghkP1M&ab_channel=ProPianoRecordsOfficialChannelProPianoRecordsOfficialChannel
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: steve ridgway on May 18, 2021, 09:20:22 AM
So, whatever type of music produces the feeling in each individual, we have learnt that the majority of respondents identify with some form of "Romanticism" as a psychological disposition. :)
Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: greg on May 18, 2021, 10:06:46 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 18, 2021, 06:47:42 AM
and there is indeed something sexy about some of Scriabin -- unless it's just me being pervy.
Nah man, I've always felt that way about Scriabin, not just you. Probably the most sensual music out there, depending on the piece.

Until I found this music, which is the clearest winner in that department:  0:)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFld_03nMks&list=OLAK5uy_mXaswgQxpTwXlXP4vQxjltafDemQJbaaw

Title: Re: How Romantic Are You?
Post by: Karl Henning on May 18, 2021, 10:41:20 AM
Well, Schoenberg & Berg are of sufficient importance to me, that I cannot vote either "Definitely Not Romantic" or "Anti-Romantic." And Stravinsky, e.g. is of suff. imp. to me that it becomes a coin-toss whether I vote "Somehow Romantic" or "Somehow non-Romantic," and I feel no need to toss the coin.