GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Composer Discussion => Topic started by: karlhenning on April 09, 2007, 07:24:18 AM

Title: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on April 09, 2007, 07:24:18 AM
All things Igor Fyodorovich.

In The Old Place, threads included:

The Scintillating Stravinsky Shindig (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,563.0.html)

A Stravinsky Kiss (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,12720.0.html)

Stravinsky and his Hollywood "failure" (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,5801.0.html)

Stravinsky's Neoclassicism (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,5638.0.html)

Igor's Igloo (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,3063.0.html)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on April 09, 2007, 07:38:27 AM
All right, I was lured into continuing with Dostoyevsky, and now I cannot put Crime & Punishment down (or at least, there are days when I don't pick it up, but I won't pick up any book other until I've finished this re-read).

But once I get to the end of that novel, I'm taking back up:

Stravinsky
A Creative Spring: Russia and France 1882–1934

by Stephen Walsh
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Greta on April 09, 2007, 09:45:26 PM
I dearly love Stravinsky. ;D I was limited far too long to The Rite of Spring and Firebird, and once I expanded beyond he quickly became one of my very favorites. His music is quite modern and daring, yet appealing and catchy.

My favorite Stravinskians are Salonen and Boulez, they both get it right on clarity and passion, and really "get" Stravinsky's complex rhythmic writing.

I'm currently in love with the Violin Concerto (Cho-Liang Lin/Salonen), it's irresistable, right from the jaunty beginning it just enchants you and doesn't let go. Witty, fresh, breezy...divine.

I love that lighter side of Stravinsky and definitely have to explore more!

I'm primarily familiar with his big orchestral work, some of the ballets, Symphony in Three Movements. (A real gem!)

Any "lighter side" recommendations?  :D
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: knight66 on April 09, 2007, 10:12:42 PM
There is also this thread on Oedipus Rex.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,4130.0.html

Mike
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: val on April 10, 2007, 03:56:02 AM
Le Sacre, Petrushka, Noces, Renard, Cantata, In memoriam Dylan Thomas, Symphony in three movements are among the absolute masterpieces of the XX century.

An extraordinary master that, in the XX century can only be matched with Debussy and Schönberg. 
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on April 10, 2007, 04:01:06 AM
I'm currently in love with the Violin Concerto (Cho-Liang Lin/Salonen), it's irresistable, right from the jaunty beginning it just enchants you and doesn't let go. Witty, fresh, breezy...divine.

I love that lighter side of Stravinsky and definitely have to explore more!

I'm primarily familiar with his big orchestral work, some of the ballets, Symphony in Three Movements. (A real gem!)

Any "lighter side" recommendations?  :D

Hi Greta!

Concerto per due pianoforti (a piece for two pianos, sans orchestra, N.B.)
Mavra (opera buffa in one act, after Pushkin)
Symphonies pour instruments à vent
Concerto for piano and wind instruments
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on April 12, 2007, 09:20:05 AM
Also, it is hard to think of his last ballet Agon as light, but there is something of that lightness and transparency of scoring in this harp- and mandolin-infested, occasionally serial, work based on French courtly dances (appropriate for the '50s when Stravinsky had begun to look back at very early music and Schoenberg/Webern [esp sharing Webern's interest in early music]). Detailed complex imitative counterpoint, often with lines overlapping themselves  in a way that hypnotizes me because although you can hear every note, you (and by 'you' I mean 'I') can't take in all at once, I speak in particular of the Gaillarde, in whose thrall I am perpetually.

A thoroughly enchantin work, Egbdf!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on April 20, 2007, 06:21:56 AM
That last one is more like Igor Magoo . . . .
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on April 25, 2007, 10:53:54 AM
The Mass ain't gettin' no love here.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: not edward on April 25, 2007, 11:01:34 AM
The Mass ain't gettin' no love here.
It does with me: I find its crystalline clarity and restraint help make it one of Stravinsky's most personal utterances.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on April 25, 2007, 11:09:13 AM
The performance we heard of the Mass in Maryland was a little too cushiony (I think the group had its hands full, and the Agnus Dei nearly defeated them).

But I like all three four recordings I have of it.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mark G. Simon on April 25, 2007, 03:15:03 PM
Karl doesn't need to know that I was also there. We talked afterwards. But for the rest of you, I was there and I can say that Maryland performance was OK, but it was missing something. They were trying to put some kind of finesse into it that didn't really have anything to do with the music. Too much legato, too much smoothness. Stravinsky wanted articulation. You can tell from his own recording. He didn't want his music to be all mushed up like it was Mendelssohn or Brahms.

The wind players blended nicely and their harmonies were very beautiful. The oboes and bassoons had a little bit of trouble with the extreme high notes that Stravinsky calls for.

This was the University of Maryland's Concert Chorale, with a group of student wind players.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: not edward on April 25, 2007, 04:09:44 PM
Karl doesn't need to know that I was also there. We talked afterwards. But for the rest of you, I was there and I can say that Maryland performance was OK, but it was missing something. They were trying to put some kind of finesse into it that didn't really have anything to do with the music. Too much legato, too much smoothness. Stravinsky wanted articulation. You can tell from his own recording. He didn't want his music to be all mushed up like it was Mendelssohn or Brahms.

The wind players blended nicely and their harmonies were very beautiful. The oboes and bassoons had a little bit of trouble with the extreme high notes that Stravinsky calls for.

This was the University of Maryland's Concert Chorale, with a group of student wind players.
Thanks for that description, which makes me feel like I know exactly what was wrong with the performance.

I think this is one of the rare cases where I prefer Stravinsky's own recording to the others I've heard. It brings out the wonderful icy-clear sound of the work more even than Ancerl and the Czech Philharmonia's winds.

I must manage to hear it live some time. :P
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on April 26, 2007, 03:41:12 AM
Karl doesn't need to know that I was also there. We talked afterwards. But for the rest of you, I was there and I can say that Maryland performance was OK, but it was missing something. They were trying to put some kind of finesse into it that didn't really have anything to do with the music. Too much legato, too much smoothness. Stravinsky wanted articulation. You can tell from his own recording. He didn't want his music to be all mushed up like it was Mendelssohn or Brahms.

The wind players blended nicely and their harmonies were very beautiful. The oboes and bassoons had a little bit of trouble with the extreme high notes that Stravinsky calls for.

This was the University of Maryland's Concert Chorale, with a group of student wind players.

Only thing to add, perhaps, is that the performance was led by a doctoral conducting student.

Certainly a brave effort, but most significantly held back by the tendency towards the cushiony.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on April 26, 2007, 03:41:51 AM
Did I mention, Edward, that Mark was there, too?  8)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Don Giovanni on April 28, 2007, 08:39:15 AM
Recent Stravinsky listening:

"Ebony" Concerto
"Dumbarton Oaks"
8 Instrumental Miniatures
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mark G. Simon on April 29, 2007, 06:56:19 PM
Did I mention, Edward, that Mark was there, too?  8)

Oh, and by the way, you know that concert of the University of Maryland chorus?
Yeah, that one with the Stravinsky Mass.
That was me up there in the balcony.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on May 11, 2007, 06:52:00 AM
Ramuz, who worked with Stravinsky in Switzerland, and wrote the libretto for L’histoire du soldat, leaves us this picture postcard of the composer:

Quote
Stravinsky’s writing desk resembled a surgeon’s instrument tray;  now the order which the surgeon there sets out is one last chance he gives himself in his struggle against death.  The artist too (in his way) is engaged in a struggle with death.  These bottles of different-colored inks, each in its hierarchical place, play small part in a grand affirmation of a superior order.  They keep company with different sorts and shapes of rubber and every kind of glinting steel object:  rulers, scrapers, knives, pens, not to mention that particular wheeled instrument which Stravinsky himself had invented for the drawing of staves.  One may recall St Thomas’s definition:  beauty is the splendor of order.

In his notes, Stephen Walsh adds:

Quote
The “wheeled instrument” was the so called Stravigor — a several-sized wheeled stavewriter (rastrum), which Stravinsky had invented in about 1911 and had tried to patent through Nikolai Struve before the war. It figures first in his sketches for The Rite of Spring.  Thereafter he usually drew his own staves on blank paper, filling in gaps at angles to avoid waste.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Drasko on May 15, 2007, 09:06:21 AM
            (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/7985870.jpg)

It seems Sony 22 CD Stravinsky Edition is finally due for reappearance. So far only jpc is listing it for pre-order and the price looks right.

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/7985870/rk/classic/rsk/novelties (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/7985870/rk/classic/rsk/novelties)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on May 15, 2007, 09:08:41 AM
Oh, that will be a sore temptation when it becomes available here.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: scottscheule on May 15, 2007, 11:09:02 AM
            (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/7985870.jpg)

It seems Sony 22 CD Stravinsky Edition is finally due for reappearance. So far only jpc is listing it for pre-order and the price looks right.

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/7985870/rk/classic/rsk/novelties (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/7985870/rk/classic/rsk/novelties)

What a funny little walrus of a man.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on May 15, 2007, 11:19:20 AM
Some called him Bilbo . . . .
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: scottscheule on May 15, 2007, 11:25:36 AM
Some called him Bilbo . . . .

That certainly has a nice ring to it.

*Groan*  Karl, you bring out the worst in me.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: scottscheule on May 15, 2007, 12:01:33 PM
Also, that unfortunately reminds me of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC73PHdQX04
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on May 17, 2007, 04:18:48 AM
Closing in on the end of Stephen Walsh's volume I, A Creative Spring.  A terrific read, and richly informative.  For but one ancillary thing, I now have a much better picture of many figures in Stravinsky's career, who hitherto had only been shadowy names:  Ramuz, Winterthur, and the princesse de Polignac, to mention but three.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on May 17, 2007, 09:20:23 AM
Quote
I’ve just read your review of the Ziloti concert in which Schoenberg conducted his Pelleas. I saw from what you wrote that you really like and understand the essence of Schoenberg—that truly outstanding artist of our time, and I therefore think that you would not be uninterested to know his latest work, wherein is most intensively displayed the whole extraordinary stamp of his creative genius.  I’m talking about his [Pierrot Lunaire], which I recently heard in Berlin.  Here’s something you “Contemporaries” ought to play! (Stravinsky writing to Karatygin, 26 Dec 1912)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on May 17, 2007, 09:22:03 AM
Quote from: Walsh
At the theatre, Stravinsky was rehearsing Les noces.  “I sat in the stalls with my score at the first rehearsal,” Monteux later recalled, “following every note.  I had studied it thoroughly and I at once noticed that no one came in on time, chorus or soloists (Stravinsky at that time was not the conductor that he is today, having little or no experience with ensembles).  The performance went through, and was a huge success with the Paris public, who always adored Stravinsky.”  Monteux persuaded Diaghilev to give him a rehearsal of his own.  “I worked with the chorus, who knew their parts perfectly;  it suifficed to give them their cues at the right places.  As for the soloists, they sang in any key and anywhere.  They had to learn their parts.  A few days after that rehearsal I had my first performance of Les noces.  It went perfectly and I was satisfied, but it had not the success as when conducted by the composer.  C’est la vie! Ha ha!”
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on May 17, 2007, 09:23:21 AM
Quote from: Jaroslaw Iwaszkiewicz
“Why do you change the rhythm so often?” somebody asks the composer.  “Often?”—he is astonished.  “I change it only when it is absolutely necessary.”
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Drasko on June 07, 2007, 01:12:13 PM
No context, just liked the picture and thought of posting it here

(http://www.zeitgenoessische-oper.de/Kroll/Igor_Strawinsky_Ewald_Duelberg__Ausstattung_und_Otto_Klemperer_in_der_Krollopwer_1927_Premiere_Oedipus_Rex.jpg)

Igor Strawinsky, Eduard Dülberg (Ausstattung) und Otto Klemperer im Vorfeld der Premiere von Oedipus Rex an der Krolloper am 25. Februar 1928
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Brewski on June 07, 2007, 01:17:38 PM
That is a really cool photo, thanks for posting it. 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Steve on June 07, 2007, 01:57:35 PM
Closing in on the end of Stephen Walsh's volume I, A Creative Spring.  A terrific read, and richly informative.  For but one ancillary thing, I now have a much better picture of many figures in Stravinsky's career, who hitherto had only been shadowy names:  Ramuz, Winterthur, and the princesse de Polignac, to mention but three.

I'm about to begin William James', The Varieties of Religious Experience. As soon as I'm finished I'd love another classical themed text. So an easy recommendation then, Karl?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on June 08, 2007, 06:16:39 AM
I'm about to begin William James', The Varieties of Religious Experience. As soon as I'm finished I'd love another classical themed text. So an easy recommendation then, Karl?

Yes, both volumes I (A Creative Spring) and II (The Second Exile).  Just prepare yourself to want to hear all the Stravinsky you've never yet heard  :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: not edward on June 08, 2007, 06:21:26 AM
Yes, both volumes I (A Creative Spring) and II (The Second Exile).  Just prepare yourself to want to hear all the Stravinsky you've never yet heard  :)
What do you think of the Lied ohne name for two bassoons and the Fanfare for a New Theatre for two trumpets? :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on June 08, 2007, 06:24:14 AM
Well, all right, I did find the bassoon duet resistable . . . I was thinking more on the lines of Berceuses de chat and Pribaoutki   :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: not edward on June 08, 2007, 11:25:11 AM
Well, all right, I did find the bassoon duet resistable . . . I was thinking more on the lines of Berceuses de chat and Pribaoutki   :)
Those are certainly perfect examples of the dictum that a work can be short without being minor! (I'd toss the two Bal'mont settings and the Three Japanese Lyrics into the same category as them.)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Greta on August 07, 2007, 10:58:24 PM
I finally heard The Fairy's Kiss!  :D The recent Houston recording is on the radio, very good, a totally delightful work. I was kind of confused what composer I was listening to!

I'm not sure if it is one movement or several, but I got in at the jolly bouncy horns with the odd meters, which hooked me. And later the extended flute solo and chamber winds are excellent, w/ the harp and cello and clarinet, I always loved how Stravinsky wrote for winds. Gorgeous! Nice fairytale atmosphere, even Tchaikovskian, albeit slightly fractured. Prokofiev came to mind too for some reason. Only a bare trace of Le Sacre Stravinsky in the brass hits.

I'm always amazed at how much he experimented with radically different styles of writing. Still so many of his works I haven't heard, and none of his serial period I think. Les Noces sounds really interesting, which version is the one to go for? It seems there are several different ones, and a full orchestration, and a new one by Steven Stucky is premiering in LA too next year.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on August 08, 2007, 02:35:42 AM
How wonderful that you are at last acquainted with the charming Fairy's Kiss, Greta! On one level, it's a powerful statement, isn't it, of the affection and respect Igor Fyodorovich had for Pyotr Ilyich?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Brewski on August 08, 2007, 05:19:51 AM
I finally heard The Fairy's Kiss!  :D The recent Houston recording is on the radio, very good, a totally delightful work. I was kind of confused what composer I was listening to!

I'm not sure if it is one movement or several, but I got in at the jolly bouncy horns with the odd meters, which hooked me. And later the extended flute solo and chamber winds are excellent, w/ the harp and cello and clarinet, I always loved how Stravinsky wrote for winds. Gorgeous! Nice fairytale atmosphere, even Tchaikovskian, albeit slightly fractured. Prokofiev came to mind too for some reason. Only a bare trace of Le Sacre Stravinsky in the brass hits.

I'm always amazed at how much he experimented with radically different styles of writing. Still so many of his works I haven't heard, and none of his serial period I think. Les Noces sounds really interesting, which version is the one to go for? It seems there are several different ones, and a full orchestration, and a new one by Steven Stucky is premiering in LA too next year.

Great piece, isn't it!  :D  One of my favorites by Stravinsky, for sure. 

For Les Noces, I have the Bernstein recording below and like it very much.  But I haven't heard some notable others, such as the one by Robert Craft.  Doing a quick search, I notice there is also a DVD of the Royal Ballet (Covent Garden) if you want to see it danced, along with The Firebird.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NJ4XKGQPL._AA240_.jpg)

--Bruce
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Lethevich on October 26, 2007, 09:58:55 AM
(http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/1592/stravinskymugshotresizeln1.jpg)

Finally found a big picture of it :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on October 26, 2007, 10:01:41 AM
He looks like they roughed him up a bit on Scollay Square first . . . normally, he is so faultlessly soigné.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: not edward on October 26, 2007, 10:06:03 AM
Now if only he'd (pace Wodehouse) done an orchestral version of Way Down the soigné river....
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on October 26, 2007, 10:23:24 AM
I can't either think that adjective without chuckling at remembering Wodehouse  :D
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on October 26, 2007, 10:23:55 AM
Lethe, do you have The Big Box, or did I but dream it?   8)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Lethevich on October 26, 2007, 10:26:33 AM
Lethe, do you have The Big Box, or did I but dream it?   8)

Yep, as-per me, I have yet to listen to most of it - the stand-out discovery so far has been the violin concerto.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on November 19, 2007, 11:35:47 AM
How is progress on The Box, LetheIsaac Stern playing the Violin Concerto is a fine document of the piece!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Lethevich on November 19, 2007, 11:45:22 AM
How is progress on The Box, LetheIsaac Stern playing the Violin Concerto is a fine document of the piece!

The biggest discoveries so far are: Ebony Concerto, Canticum Sacrum and Threni (that one in particular was unexpectedly substantial/large). Ones I was aware were popular but had barely heard until now: Octet, Symphony of Psalms, Requiem Canticles.

I was surprised at how little chamber music was on here - evidence that he didn't write much?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on November 19, 2007, 12:20:59 PM
The biggest discoveries so far are: Ebony Concerto, Canticum Sacrum and Threni (that one in particular was unexpectedly substantial/large). Ones I was aware were popular but had barely heard until now: Octet, Symphony of Psalms, Requiem Canticles.

I was very pleasantly surprised with how much I like this recording of the Ebony Concerto, a work which had pretty much eluded me ere now.

Quote from: Lethe
I was surprised at how little chamber music was on here - evidence that he didn't write much?

I suppose not, comparatively speaking.  Stravinsky's career certainly resulted in a wealth of music for large forces.  Some of the ballets, though (L'histoire du soldat, Bayka/Renard) are scored essentially for chamber groups.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Egebedieff on December 13, 2007, 07:24:43 PM
How is progress on The Box, LetheIsaac Stern playing the Violin Concerto is a fine document of the piece!

Stravinsky sure didn't think so. Stravinsky wanted Eudice Shapiro, but Stern was the Columbia star violinist.



Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on December 14, 2007, 06:08:18 AM
Stravinsky sure didn't think so. Stravinsky wanted Eudice Shapiro, but Stern was the Columbia star violinist.

That doesn't follow.  This means that Stravinsky wanted some other performer, all right;  it does not mean that the recording with Stern is at all otherwise than a fine document of the piece.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Egebedieff on December 14, 2007, 01:14:03 PM
That doesn't follow.  This means that Stravinsky wanted some other performer, all right;  it does not mean that the recording with Stern is at all otherwise than a fine document of the piece.

My comment that he preferred Shapiro wasn't intended as a statement of proof that the IS/IS recording "is at all otherwise than a fine document of the piece" (whatever that sort of pronouncement is intended to mean).

It was preceded by a statement of the fact that Stravinsky didn't think so, which is fairly frequently documented (oddly, not in the liner notes). A quick glance turns up these references.

See Walsh Vol II page 517,
or Charles Joseph's "Stravinsky Inside Out" page 216

I remember someone recounting a conversation in the car in which Stravinsky,  lamenting how badly things went w/ Stern, says something along the lines of "and to think Eudice Shapiro is here in Los Angeles."

It's okay if you like that recording, but I think we can discern Stravinsky's feelings about ir when he complains that Stern had "hardly done me the respect of learning it ..."

Regarding recordings as documents: Stravinsky spoke of his recordings as "documents"  early on, but felt less and less so of the '60s recordings, esp. over such things as the Stern and Entremont collaborations, among other things.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on December 14, 2007, 01:32:53 PM
Thanks for the expansion.  Entremont was certainly a peculiar pairing with the music, too.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on December 16, 2007, 06:28:58 AM
Well, more than a few neighbors complain (not all of them graciously) about my brief posts (and not that your statement was such a complaint, of course).  But my circumstances of browsing/keeping up with the forum (which runs to the chatty side, even if I did not participate at all) are generally such, that most of the time my choice is, post a brief message, or don't participate.  And I forego the latter option.  If that brings grief to some, I truly regret it.  But, hard cheddar.

To expand on my own remark, apostrophe:  Much of the Big Stravinsky Box are excellent renditions of much of the master's oeuvre.  In many cases, next to the only recordings of pieces which deserve better than next-to-only-recording status (gag me with a hundred complete-Beethoven-symphony sets).  Some of them are a bit dodgy (I must admit to puzzled disappointment with the performance of Agon, which has much rattier moments to it, than any recording with the musicians of the Cleveland Orchestra has any right to).  For the Violin Concerto, largely I do prefer Wolfgang Schneiderhan's playing with the Berliner Philharmoniker and Karel Ančerl, perhaps;  even there, though, I find the Stravinsky document of unique interest, even where there is some apparently near-fatal compromise.  Like the failure to include the repeat in the first of the Movements for piano and orchestra.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: BachQ on December 16, 2007, 06:46:39 AM
Thanks for the expansion.  Entremont was certainly a peculiar pairing with the music, too.

Karl, you should learn to address posters by name ........
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Egebedieff on December 16, 2007, 10:00:21 AM
(I must admit to puzzled disappointment with the performance of Agon, which has much rattier moments to it, than any recording with the musicians of the Cleveland Orchestra has any right to). 

I may agree, and I would like to hear the Cleveland Orch perform it. And perhaps there are rattier moments than one should expect from the Los Angeles Festival Sym Orch (essentially the same crowd of west coast Columbia Symphony/LA Phil players IS recorded with in LA). I am still rather fond of that recording, because it is the one I bonded with -- perhaps a little like what happens when you learn to play a piece wrong. I heard a recording BBC broadcast Strav. conducted shortly after the recording, hoping for a better performance, but it has even more of the same problems of the Columbia rec. 

I think the Cleveland Orch Strav recordings are among the best-played of the Columbias, although there are some surprising gaffes, esp. the oboe disappearing for a measure or two in Card Party. (Mysteriously repaired on the CD set)

For the Violin Concerto, largely I do prefer Wolfgang Schneiderhan's playing with the Berliner Philharmoniker and Karel Ančerl, perhaps;  even there, though, I find the Stravinsky document of unique interest, even where there is some apparently near-fatal compromise.  Like the failure to include the repeat in the first of the Movements for piano and orchestra.

That is a particular curiosity, since the repeat was there on the lp release, albeit a copy/paste (coincidentally worth pointing out that McClure's other charge, Glenn Gould, was in favor of just using the same performance twice for repeats). McClure missed this on the CD remastering. I expect there are similar copy/paste repeats given the budget McClure was working with.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on December 16, 2007, 12:16:40 PM
An optimist might say "Single Beginning-Quote" . . . .
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mark G. Simon on December 25, 2007, 11:12:18 AM
Santa was very good to me today. He brought me my own copy of The Stravinsky Box. All 22 CDs. Just about the complete works. Life is good.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on December 25, 2007, 06:33:14 PM
Splendid, Mark!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: uffeviking on December 25, 2007, 08:04:40 PM
Life is good here too because I bought the very same collection as a Winter Solstice present for Lis! - Aren't those presents you buy for yourself always the best ones?  ;)

I skimmed through those 22 discs and am surprised at the amount of songs Stravinsky composed; never heard any of them!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on December 26, 2007, 05:43:03 AM
Have fun with "The Owl and the Pussycat," Lis!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: uffeviking on December 26, 2007, 10:01:51 AM
Have fun with "The Owl and the Pussycat," Lis!

I did have fun, Karl! It's with Robert Kraft and she sings in English, I can understand almost every word.

The one I am very happy about is Oedipus. I have the video with Jessye Norman and Philip Langridge conducted by Seiji Ozawa. Those two soloists and the production is fabulous, but all is ruined by casting the Japanese female as speaker. My apologies to any native Japanese speaker, but it's a violent sounding language and this woman comes on like one of those yappy terriers, ruining the entire performance. Now I have a wonderful Oedipus to enjoy, pleasant voices all the way around!  :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on December 26, 2007, 10:06:06 AM
That is a wonderful Oedipus Rex, Lis! Long may you dance, and may nothing freeze off!  8)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Ephemerid on January 28, 2008, 08:49:25 PM
Stravinsky was one of my first loves-- Apollon musagetes and the Symphony of Psalms being my two favourites, other brilliant works being his Mass, the Symphonies of Wind Instruments, Symphony in C, Orpheus, the Concertino (the string quartet version especially), the Violin Concerto (especially the finale!), Oedipus Rex, Pulcinella, and Persephone.  And of course the first big three ballets goes without saying.

Persephone and Orpheus seem to be underrated pieces (Stravinsky himself wasn't too fond of Persephone, although that might also be because Gide gave him such a hard time LOL).  Nagano did a good recording of Persephone in the early 90s paired with the Rite as a double-CD set but last I checked it was out of print.  I was sorely disappointed with Tilson Thomas' recording.

I only recently heard his Elegie for solo viola which is also very good.  Sadly, Stravinsky didn't write much chamber music & generally I can't get into his solo piano music or for two pianos (except his Sonata for Two Pianos is nice and reminds me a bit of Satie).

I recently re-acquianted myself with Zvezdolikiy ("Star-face" or "King of the Stars") for men's chorus and orchestra.  If I recall, Stravinsky wrote in around 1912 (?).  Its a very mysterious piece, unlike anything else I've ever heard, but what is especially striking is how much Debussy's influence is present.  But then, there are some passages in the Rite that bring Debussy to mind (like the opening of part II for example).  --oh, certainly it doesn't sound LIKE Debussy, but the influence is very much *there*.  Anyway, I do highly recommend this somewhat obscure piece-- its truly otherworldly sounding...

All right, I was lured into continuing with Dostoyevsky, and now I cannot put Crime & Punishment down...
Just a side note: I read this for the first time last year, and WOW! -- it was impossible to put down!  (I ended up reading it twice last year-- the Pevear/Volokhonsky translation)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on January 29, 2008, 05:12:49 AM
I only recently heard his Elegie for solo viola which is also very good.

Yes, of the (dwindling) body of Stravinsky works I have not yet heard, I am keenest to hear this one :-)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 29, 2008, 05:24:17 AM

Persephone and Orpheus seem to be underrated pieces (Stravinsky himself wasn't too fond of Persephone, although that might also be because Gide gave him such a hard time LOL). I was sorely disappointed with Tilson Thomas' recording.

I recently re-acquianted myself with Zvezdolikiy ("Star-face" or "King of the Stars") for men's chorus and orchestra.  If I recall, Stravinsky wrote in around 1912 (?).  Its a very mysterious piece, unlike anything else I've ever heard, but what is especially striking is how much Debussy's influence is present.  But then, there are some passages in the Rite that bring Debussy to mind (like the opening of part II for example).  --oh, certainly it doesn't sound LIKE Debussy, but the influence is very much *there*.  Anyway, I do highly recommend this somewhat obscure piece-- its truly otherworldly sounding...

Orpheus is one of my favourite Stravinsky ballets. And Zvezdolikiy is a piece I have known and loved ever since I bought a Tilson Thomas (!) record in the 1970s, where it was coupled with the Sacre. It's a terrific, dissonant piece on a poem by Symbolist poet Balmont, and it went too far for Debussy, if I remember my Taruskin correctly...
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Guido on January 29, 2008, 04:08:37 PM
Who was that mysterious " ' " or rather "end-quote man"?

Listening through the 22 CD set has been wonderful. I was just wondering if there was anything major that had been missed out?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mark G. Simon on January 29, 2008, 10:22:18 PM
All it leaves out are the solo pieces: The clarinet pieces, the viola piece, the easy piano pieces  (The Five Fingers, 3 Easy Pieces*, 5 Easy Pieces*; though they do show up orchestrated), the Four Etudes for piano op. 7, the early Piano Sonata in F# minor.

Also missing are the Three Pieces for String Quartet and Concertino for String Quartet. The latter is represented in its 12 instrument setting. His wind setting of "Song of the Volga Boatman" is also missing.

Most curious for its apparent absence is the Fanfare for two trumpets, which is odd because all the other pieces from the LP it originally appeared on are there. Or maybe I just haven't noticed its presence yet.


* (piano duet, actually)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Drasko on January 30, 2008, 09:44:32 AM
(http://www.harmoniamundi.com/Publish/album/1036/801913_G.jpg)

Could wax lyrical but won't. This is better option, I believe. I've uploaded whole third scene of Les Noces (320 kbps mp3) so everyone can judge for themselves. I think it's excellent.
 
http://www.mediafire.com/?58gdkgx51d2 (http://www.mediafire.com/?58gdkgx51d2)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Guido on February 04, 2008, 07:37:53 AM
I will need to listen a lot more, but my general impression of my initial traversal through these huge swathes of repertoire is that, while I like everything, I don't love it in the same way that I do the Rite of Spring... Maybe I'm expecting too much - he raised the bar pretty high with that piece! So far, I have been most impressed by Agon, Apollo, Requiem Canticles, Concerto and Sonata for two pianos, but I'm sure this list will grow as I listen through them all again.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on February 04, 2008, 08:09:51 AM
Hmm. Well, I couldn't say that I love Svadebka, the Symphony of Psalms, Orpheus or Agon 'the way I do" Le sacre.  Each piece has its own profile.  I don't think I love the other pieces less than I do Le sacre.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mark G. Simon on February 04, 2008, 02:20:29 PM
Hmm. Well, I couldn't say that I love Svadebka, the Symphony of Psalms, Orpheus or Agon 'the way I do" Le sacre.  Each piece has its own profile.  I don't think I love the other pieces less than I do Le sacre.

On the other hand, someone whose only exposure to these particular works is from the Big Stravinsky Box is not going to hear their full impact. Except for Orpheus, all of these pieces are represented by weak performances, and are much better done elsewhere.

Robert Shaw recorded Symphony of Psalms at least twice, and they're both magnificent. For Agon, you've got to hear Erich Leinsdorf's reading, or Michael Tilson Thomas'.

Orpheus sounds like one of Stravinsky's better conducting efforts, but I know of no other recording to compare it to.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 04, 2008, 05:02:16 PM
Orpheus sounds like one of Stravinsky's better conducting efforts, but I know of no other recording to compare it to.

The Orpheus Chamber Orchestra recorded the work, although it's OOP (but Arkiv has it or look aftermarket).

Wouldn't know about comparisons as I've never heard the work. Would like to, though.


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41MW93JTKSL._SS500_.jpg)


Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Guido on February 04, 2008, 05:39:37 PM
How could I forget the Symphony of Psalms! That may be my second favourite work by Stravinsky. I read recently that Rostropovich said that Shostokvich's favourite work by Stravinsky was the Symphony of Psalms (and his favourite work by Prokofiev was the Symphony Concerto).
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Bonehelm on February 05, 2008, 04:32:04 PM
Is there a difference between Chez Stravinsky and Igor Stravinsky, the man who wrote Rite of Spring and various other modernist music?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on February 06, 2008, 05:22:26 AM
Chez is a French preposition meaning "at the home of."
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Bonehelm on February 07, 2008, 12:12:41 PM
Chez is a French preposition meaning "at the home of."

OH LOL I thought that was the man's first name. Thanks for clarifying.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Ephemerid on February 11, 2008, 12:36:44 PM
The Orpheus Chamber Orchestra recorded the work, although it's OOP (but Arkiv has it or look aftermarket).

Wouldn't know about comparisons as I've never heard the work. Would like to, though.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41MW93JTKSL._SS500_.jpg)

I used to own that disc.  I've got Neeme Jarvi's CD recording on Chandos, which is good, but, if I remember right, the Orpheus takes the slow passages of Orpheus a bit slower than Jarvi (the opening & closing and also the ascent from the underworld scene)-- which I prefer. 

The ascension scene is one of the most beautiful passages written by Stravinsky-- those two bars of silence when Orpheus looks back on Eurydice!!!  :o  I love that sort of subtle drama, so typical of Stravinsky-- just like the soft "alleluia" passages in the Symphony of Psalms.

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 11, 2008, 08:04:19 PM
I used to own that disc.  I've got Neeme Jarvi's CD recording on Chandos, which is good, but, if I remember right, the Orpheus takes the slow passages of Orpheus a bit slower than Jarvi (the opening & closing and also the ascent from the underworld scene)-- which I prefer. 

The ascension scene is one of the most beautiful passages written by Stravinsky-- those two bars of silence when Orpheus looks back on Eurydice!!!  :o  I love that sort of subtle drama, so typical of Stravinsky-- just like the soft "alleluia" passages in the Symphony of Psalms.

I just ordered this Orpheus Chamber Orchestra recording of the Orpheus ballet off Amazon. Looking forward to getting to know the work. Thanks for the highlight tip. I'll keep an ear out for the passage...



Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Ephemerid on February 11, 2008, 08:29:16 PM
I just ordered this Orpheus Chamber Orchestra recording of the Orpheus ballet off Amazon. Looking forward to getting to know the work. Thanks for the highlight tip. I'll keep an ear out for the passage...

Cool!  You're in for a real treat!  :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: paulb on February 12, 2008, 04:59:20 AM
Cool!  You're in for a real treat!  :)

But no tricks please ;)

I should not have said that, being I'm not a  fan of Stravinsky.
I'll leave now.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on February 12, 2008, 05:26:02 AM
I should not have said that, being I'm not a  fan of Stravinsky.

I know, Paul, he was far too modern for you.

Probably you should stick to Romantics like Pettersson.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 12, 2008, 08:21:36 AM
Cool!  You're in for a real treat!  :)

Seconded. 'Orpheus' is one of my favourite Stravinsky ballets. It seems to continue where 'Apollon Musagète' left off. Marvellous.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Ephemerid on February 12, 2008, 08:24:54 AM
It seems to continue where 'Apollon Musagète' left off.
Yeah, I hear that too...
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Harry on February 12, 2008, 08:38:04 AM
Apart from all the vocal compositions, Stravinsky is topdog in my collection, but I am ashamed to say that the big box of the fella, is still wrapped....... :o
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 12, 2008, 08:46:36 AM
Apart from all the vocal compositions, Stravinsky is topdog in my collection, but I am ashamed to say that the big box of the fella, is still wrapped....... :o

Well, I can promise you, Harry - Stravinsky is outstanding in his own 'Orpheus'...
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on May 29, 2008, 03:48:13 AM
Letter by Robert Craft re Walsh:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9506EFDE133EF93BA15756C0A9609C8B63

Alas, that it should look like the Shostakovich Wars are going to suffer rivalry in the Stravinsky Wars!

Quote from: Craft
Greg Sandow's review of Stephen Walsh's ''Stravinsky: The Second Exile'' (April 30) quotes Walsh to the effect that much of my work ''is riddled with bias, error, supposition and falsehood.'' I maintain that these terms apply more aptly to Walsh's work.

Although phrased in adult fashion, this is the musicological equivalent of I know you are, but what am I?  It is some little while since I read the Walsh, but I remember sober detail which underpinned the "riddled with bias" remark, which looks so harsh out of context.

It is obvious that, where Walsh is striving for an equable account of a major composer's life, if his working relation with Craft (a significant source) sours (and barring some other evidence, I must think that this would be contrary to Walsh's wishes), Craft is in a ready position to make himself the 500-lb gorilla in the gazebo.

I hope this seems more general regret that the truth is suffering because of an imperfect alliance of personalities, rather than casting any one person as a villain.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on May 29, 2008, 04:06:33 AM
Quote
. . . in a ready position to make himself the 500-lb gorilla in the gazebo.

Viz.:

Quote from: Craft
. . . why does [Walsh] continue trying to discredit someone who lived in the closest daily relationship with the composer for a quarter of a century?

Very cleverly nullifying any idea that Walsh's goal may be historical truth, but instead mere vindictiveness;  and conveniently disregarding a point which (IIRC) Craft himself once made that he was (I paraphrase) too close to the composer, for too long, to write an unclouded biography.

FWIW the impression I carried from the Walsh is that he did a very good job;  that the book carries itself like the work of someone who tried to do his best;  that it is not the final word, but that it is an important scholarly step in trying to focus on Stravinsky, rather than on Craft;  but, there arose difficulties of some personal nature.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on September 09, 2008, 02:35:14 AM
Found a copy Postnikova and Irina Schnittke on Melodiya lp. I like esp how they let the tone blossom and the headlong pace of the third mvt. Sounds like the transcription is based on the original edition, and perhaps the early Columbia recording. Is there a DSCH expert around here who knows much about how this came to be?

I'll reply, partly speculatively, and will deny the label of "expert."  A composition student of Shostakovich's from his Moscow days, Karen Khatchaturyan, remembers Shostakovich getting hold of a copy of the Stravinsky score.  (Stravinsky was long an idol of Dmitri Dmitriyevich, Petrushka in particular was an apparent influence early on, and for years there was a photo of Igor Fyodorvich on his desk.)  The four-hands arrangement I see both as an 'exercise' whereby Shostakovich would get right into the guts of this score with which he was rightly infatuated, and — since we are talking of a monumental work for chorus and orchestra using sacred texts, in Soviet Russia — would have been practically the only way for him (and his students) to get to hear this piece resounding in actual musical space.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Ugh! on September 24, 2008, 04:03:56 AM

There are of course a number of works, and lots more arrangements of his own music and others, that Stravinsky never recorded. Craft has done some of them for MusicMasters/Koch/Naxos. '

Which pieces remain to be recorded?

Are there any recordings of Mushrooms go to war and other minor, early pieces such as Tarantella?

Some of the early pieces have also been reported as "lost", including the 1904 Cantata, and the Tarantula (1906). Have any of this material resurfaced?

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on September 24, 2008, 04:07:48 AM
Are there any recordings of Mushrooms go to war and other minor, early pieces such as Tarantella?

Yes, at least in the case of the former. Koch released a disc by Harmonie Ensemble/New York with premiere recordings of e.g. How the Mushrooms Went to War and the Petit Ramusianum Harmonique.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Ugh! on September 24, 2008, 04:17:35 AM
Yes, at least in the case of the former. Koch released a disc by Harmonie Ensemble/New York with premiere recordings of e.g. How the Mushrooms Went to War and the Petit Ramusianum Harmonique.

Interesting, have you heard it?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on September 24, 2008, 04:21:31 AM
Yes; interesting little bits, as such marginalia must be in the case of an artist like Stravinsky.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: knight66 on October 29, 2008, 03:31:48 PM
This month Gramophone has a long item comparing CDs and DVDs of The Rake's Progress. It is written by David Patrick Stearns. He is a critic from The Philadelphia Enquirer. I enjoyed the piece and it provided a number of insights. I have the Gardiner version and I have not heard any other at all for many years. He writes that nothing escapes Gardiner, everything goes well, but what we have is a purely exterior presentation with the interior embodiment missing.

Not knowing other versions; does anyone here know the Gardiner, what do you think of it? He favours Chailly.

Mike

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on October 29, 2008, 04:10:55 PM
It's only relatively recently that I listened to the entirety of The Rake's Progress, Mike;  and so I only know "Igor's Own" from the Big Box.  I am curious to learn more.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: knight66 on October 29, 2008, 04:12:11 PM
Oh, I had been hoping you would have it at your finger tips. It's moxies until someone else turns up then.

Mike
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 29, 2008, 11:22:20 AM
Here's a brand new recording of some late Igor that interests me. Anyone heard it yet?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41xT7tr9QqL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on December 29, 2008, 11:45:20 AM
Nowhere near too many recordings of those works have been made;  and Gielen has my confidence in this repertory.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on December 29, 2008, 09:24:24 PM
Here's a brand new recording of some late Igor that interests me. Anyone heard it yet?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41xT7tr9QqL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Probably the selling point for this disc is the fact that so much of this music is under-represented in the catalog. So it's almost self-recommending already.

Performance-wise I'm not in a position to say one way or another but I can 'guesstimate' at the quality based on this disc I have:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51zM4Hf62HL._SS500_.jpg)

To me this disc is a winner. Gielen approaches the music with an ear for clarity, proportion, and detail. If a bit of overall warmth is sacrificed in this pursuit the musical profile is still strong and characterful. Which is simply to say there's more than one way to approach this music and Gielen succeeds in making a case for his conception.

I would expect much the same to apply to the former disc.


Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 30, 2008, 07:58:27 AM
Nowhere near too many recordings of those works have been made;  and Gielen has my confidence in this repertory.

Agreed, which is why I just ordered it  :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on January 02, 2009, 08:01:59 AM
Seconded. 'Orpheus' is one of my favourite Stravinsky ballets. It seems to continue where 'Apollon Musagète' left off. Marvellous.

It is indeed the latest Stravinsky work to transfix my ears for an extended period.  The delicate simplicity of the harp, sustained strings, and horn . . . the forays into the more active Apollo-like passages.  Marvelous.  And, in much the same way that no one listening to L'oiseau de feu would 'predict' that the same composer would write Le sacre four years later . . . no one could have plotted a curve from Le sacre to Orpheus.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: springrite on January 02, 2009, 08:13:24 AM
I just watched two DVDs of the Rite of Spring as ballet. Amazing! Well, especially the first one which is a modern version, featuring lots of nudity. The second is actually a film about the premiere of the work, with the entire ballet in it. Needless to say, I liked the new version of the dance itself better. ;D
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on January 02, 2009, 08:21:10 AM
My ideal Le sacre production would be Roerich's original stage designs, but not the original choreography (thank you very much).

Nudity, negotiable . . . .
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on January 02, 2009, 08:27:04 AM
Of course, for all the overall consistency of 'voice' throughout an astonishingy varied career, some of my favorites are 'one-off' works which, while there are ties to what Stravinsky was doing generally at that period, create a musical space which the composer 'let be' . . . in particular I am thinking of Le baiser de la fée and Perséphone.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Ugh! on January 02, 2009, 11:37:32 PM
Was the latter the PBS production of the Joffrey Ballet doing the Millicent Hodson reconstruction of the Diaghilev production (Nijinsky, Roerich)? I have never seen this available, so I only have my old VHS taped off of the air? Who choreographed the modern production? Paul Taylor?'


It is all on Youtube, J., first part here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjX3oAwv_Fs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjX3oAwv_Fs)

I happen to like the Nijinsky choreography as well, almost puppet-like, or resembling graphic animation more than anything else. In any case, Stravinsky owes a lot to the uproar that choreography created during the premiere  ;)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Guido on January 03, 2009, 02:19:02 AM
At the risk of sounding completely plebian, to me the coreography and costumes in the linked to production were all faintly ridiculous - like watching the smurfs or maybe Star Wars Ewoks dance - to me the overall effect was more cute than terrifying tribal ritual. I like the opening of part II though.

Loads of other productions on youtube. Just three:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5zfODAaikE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdoF2yJzr2I&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axuJXlEWYhg&feature=related
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: pjme on January 07, 2009, 09:12:42 AM
Listened to Mavra yesterday ( on the radio/ Stravinsky conducting). What a great work! I really must listen again.
P.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on January 07, 2009, 09:50:01 AM
And the Prelude to Mavra: it's like Copland, before Copland was Copland  ;)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Herman on January 07, 2009, 12:14:02 PM
At the risk of sounding completely plebian, to me the coreography and costumes in the linked to production were all faintly ridiculous - like watching the smurfs or maybe Star Wars Ewoks dance - to me the overall effect was more cute than terrifying tribal ritual. I like the opening of part II though.

Loads of other productions on youtube. Just three:

The Sacre is typically a ballet that needs to be seen in the theatre. It films very badly because it's all about the ensemble on the theatre floor  - something a camera can't capture.

The Sacre with the girls with their panties down was a hoot. I thought this was the second act, thinking you don't want to strip right away, and then the oboe started: Act one! [edit: obviously this should be: "bassoon"]

You know, ever since the fifties the Sacre has been one of the main dump sites for desperate AD - choreographers. If you don't know what to do, just do a Sacre.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on January 07, 2009, 12:15:00 PM
In a way, a sort of "arrival" for the piece, I guess.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Dax on January 07, 2009, 12:34:52 PM
I don't think there's been any mention of Zvesdoliki (The King of the stars) which is a favourite Stravinsky piece of mine - and several friends over here in Britland.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on January 07, 2009, 12:42:16 PM
It's a rich score, characteristically likeable . . . just over almost before you know it.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on January 07, 2009, 12:43:51 PM
Also . . . I have this idea that Stravinsky didn't mean the 'inscription chords' to be sung, yet . . . Craft goes ahead and has them sung.

Perhaps I misremember, though.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Herman on January 07, 2009, 01:13:44 PM
Also . . . I have this idea that Stravinsky didn't mean the 'inscription chords' to be sung, yet . . . Craft goes ahead and has them sung.

Perhaps I misremember, though.

Please explain. What are the inscription chords?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on January 07, 2009, 01:15:26 PM
At the head of the first page, and before the score proper begins, Stravinsky 'sets' the title, Zvez-do-li-ki, to four chords in white-note notation.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on January 07, 2009, 02:10:42 PM
Hmm . . . I thought I remembered them singing the Hebrew letters in Threni (which are in the body of the score) in the Craft recording;  guess it's high time to listen again!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Drasko on January 07, 2009, 04:21:30 PM
Is Angelin Preljocaj's coreography of Rite of Spring available on DVD? It looks very interesting, panties or no panties.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Dax on January 07, 2009, 04:38:13 PM
Also . . . I have this idea that Stravinsky didn't mean the 'inscription chords' to be sung, yet . . . Craft goes ahead and has them sung.

Perhaps I misremember, though.

Yes, they're notated strangely aren't they? Every performance I've heard includes them including Stravinsky's own (if memory serves me right).
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Ugh! on January 07, 2009, 11:47:58 PM

There is a curious recording of Mavra done with an arrangement for a small theatre orchestra (Moscow Helikon Theatre Cha Orch/Cyril Tikhonov) with a small ensemble (piano, harmonium, solo instruments).  Has the kind of ad hoc feel of Renard. You miss the full wind sonorities, but the performance is very effective dramatically. I'd love to see a live performance in this form.  '

That's interesting, J., you know I love these alternative arrangements (re:weddings). Is this recording available anywhere (for instance in your collection ;) )?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on January 21, 2009, 08:43:53 AM
. . . I will not bother playing with words: So I will aver that Stravinsky was much more in the stylistic stream of folklorism than impressionism.

Which, not by mere chance, was in harmony with one of the principal artistic aims of Мир Исскуства (The World of Art).
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on January 21, 2009, 11:08:49 AM
I thought I remembered the absence of any such thing;  but I've now re-read the chapter, and can without the least doubt observe that Roman Vlad, in the 8-page chapter of his book devoted exclusively to Le sacre du printemps, does not mention either Debussy or La mer.  Not even once.

In a footnote, Vlad points out that John Cocteau wrote:

Quote from: Cocteau
All in all, the Rite of Spring is still a savage work, an organized savage work (oeuvre fauve).

Offhand, it does note seem that Cocteau would place La mer in the same stylistic bucket.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 21, 2009, 11:56:32 AM
a little review

This earlier-mentioned disc arrived & I've been listening to it:


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41xT7tr9QqL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

First impressions are highly positive. I can only compare Gielen's Requiem Canticles with the pioneering Craft recording. Gielen scores highly in terms of bringing out the color and detail of the score; by comparison Craft sounds a bit rough and 1-dimensional. Gielen has convinced me that Requiem Canticles is one of Igor's most mysterious and enchanting scores - something I had suspected, but wasn't convinced of before now.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 21, 2009, 11:39:06 PM
How does he handle the parlando passage? I have always cringed to hear that in the Craft recording.

Makes me cringe too. Gielen is smoother and more natural-sounding.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: greg on February 17, 2009, 01:37:12 PM
I finally ordered that box set. Only $40 for 22 CDs.  0:)
What should I expect? I already have the recording of him conducting the Symphony in C, 3 movements, and Psalms, and I couldn't even tell the recording was from the 60s! Is the rest of the set like that? I've heard that the Oedipus Rex recording isn't good, though.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on February 17, 2009, 01:50:54 PM
I finally ordered that box set. Only $40 for 22 CDs.  0:)

Outstanding!

Quote from: G Forever
What should I expect? I already have the recording of him conducting the Symphony in C, 3 movements, and Psalms, and I couldn't even tell the recording was from the 60s! Is the rest of the set like that? I've heard that the Oedipus Rex recording isn't good, though.

You've many hours of delightful listening ahead of you!

(I don't recall offhand any disappointment with the Oe. R. . . . .)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: greg on February 17, 2009, 02:41:09 PM
Good to hear.  :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: greg on February 27, 2009, 08:05:19 PM
Well, I've gone through quite a few of the CDs, but still have several to listen to.


I've listened to The Song of the Nightingale twice now, and it's just a jaw-dropping piece. I'm surprised it's not more popular than it is. The orchestration is unbelievable- and he uses every technique in the book at that time. He even has major parts for violin to play in a high position on the G String, without glissando or vibrato, and it sounds like a completely different instrument.

A couple others that have caught my attention are:
Les Noces (what a sound!),

Renard (strange attraction to this one- not sure what it is, maybe it has something to do with me listening to the opening score example and explanation of his heterophonic technique... I don't know. Just listening to it gives me this incredible feeling, like nostalgia, even though I haven't heard it before.... but what if I have?)  8)


Persephone (just pure beauty, all there is to say)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: greg on February 27, 2009, 08:26:52 PM
Also, I've always been curious...

how exactly did both the musical languages of Prokofiev and Stravinsky develop? I've read 2 of Prokofiev's biographies before, but none of Stravinsky, so I'm pretty lost when it comes to him.

Is the best explanation actually the simplest?- that they both just happened to be progressive-minded composers that were more directly influenced by guys like Rimsky-Korsakov, Rachmaninov, and Scriabin? Where did both of them get the desire to push music as far as they did at that time? Is Scriabin the most influential in their progressive thinking, even if their styles are completely different? When Prokofiev premiered the Schoenberg op.11 in Russia, it sounded like he didn't have any sort of connection or interest in it, other than a curiosity. Where do they both get the idea to be so daring?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ChamberNut on February 28, 2009, 08:44:30 AM
I've heard very little Stravinsky, but just recently got the Violin Concerto.  It's incredible!  :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mark G. Simon on February 28, 2009, 09:34:44 AM
Tonight I'm going to the Kennedy Center to hear Gil Shaham play the Stravinsky Violin Concerto with the National Symphony. The program also has the Divertimento from The Fairy's Kiss, a suite from Kurt Weill's Mahagonny and the Overture, Waltz and Finale from Powder Her Face by Ades. The conductor is Hannu Lintu.

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: greg on February 28, 2009, 08:20:47 PM
Quote
Hannu Lintu
Finnish?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: sul G on March 01, 2009, 07:12:55 AM
Who, Mark? Yes, I presume he must have done.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mark G. Simon on March 01, 2009, 07:41:06 AM
Finnish?

Very much so. I was sitting in one of the chorister seats, meaning the section behind the orchestra where the chorus sits when they do works with chorus. I enjoy sitting there because you get to see the musicians at work, look over their shoulders and read the music on their stands, plus you get to see the conductor's facial expressions. Lintu makes a lot of odd faces when he conducts, often looking like Jerry Lewis.

This was a great concert, by the way. Shaham played his heart out on the two "arias" of the Violin Concerto, and worked up a very energetic ending to the finale. The piece sounds more "severe" in live performance because it's scored so thinly that sound is only eminating from isolated pockets of the stage.  The Fairy's Kiss is a colorful showcase for the full wind section. You don't realize, until you see the musicians performing, just how much time the strings sit there with nothing to play. He only uses them when it really counts. The ensemble never sounds undernourished, though. This ballet is probably just a little too long to be played in full, but I feel that the Divertimento just doesn't do it justice. Too many of my favorite passages have wound up on the cutting room floor, and it never works its way up to the emotional core of the score.  The full ballet climaxes with a more or less intact arrangement of "None but the Lonely Heart", the only Tchaikovsky material to survive the Stravinskyan deconstructing and rethinking process. I can understand why Stravinksy didn't want to include such a recognizable Tchaikovsky hit in his own suite, but without it, the music never completes its dramatic and emotional arc, leaving the listener (this listener in any case) unsatisfied.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: greg on March 01, 2009, 07:17:53 PM
Who, Mark? Yes, I presume he must have done.
For some reason, I laughed at that even though it was awful...



Very much so. I was sitting in one of the chorister seats, meaning the section behind the orchestra where the chorus sits when they do works with chorus. I enjoy sitting there because you get to see the musicians at work, look over their shoulders and read the music on their stands, plus you get to see the conductor's facial expressions. Lintu makes a lot of odd faces when he conducts, often looking like Jerry Lewis.

This was a great concert, by the way. Shaham played his heart out on the two "arias" of the Violin Concerto, and worked up a very energetic ending to the finale. The piece sounds more "severe" in live performance because it's scored so thinly that sound is only eminating from isolated pockets of the stage.  The Fairy's Kiss is a colorful showcase for the full wind section. You don't realize, until you see the musicians performing, just how much time the strings sit there with nothing to play. He only uses them when it really counts. The ensemble never sounds undernourished, though. This ballet is probably just a little too long to be played in full, but I feel that the Divertimento just doesn't do it justice. Too many of my favorite passages have wound up on the cutting room floor, and it never works its way up to the emotional core of the score.  The full ballet climaxes with a more or less intact arrangement of "None but the Lonely Heart", the only Tchaikovsky material to survive the Stravinskyan deconstructing and rethinking process. I can understand why Stravinksy didn't want to include such a recognizable Tchaikovsky hit in his own suite, but without it, the music never completes its dramatic and emotional arc, leaving the listener (this listener in any case) unsatisfied.
I never even heard of chorister seats until I read this. Interesting... think of the ways you could distract fellow audience members while the orchestra is playing a piece you don't like.  >:D

Quote
The piece sounds more "severe" in live performance because it's scored so thinly that sound is only eminating from isolated pockets of
the stage.
Must be awkward performing some of Stravinsky (the thinner-scored stuff) and pointillistic stuff like Webern. I suppose everyone has to have the guts of a soloist for it to all work out...
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mark G. Simon on March 01, 2009, 07:41:57 PM

Must be awkward performing some of Stravinsky (the thinner-scored stuff) and pointillistic stuff like Webern. I suppose everyone has to have the guts of a soloist for it to all work out...

Believe me, every orchestral wind player has to have the guts of a soloist, for all music!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: greg on March 01, 2009, 07:43:31 PM
Believe me, every orchestral wind player has to have the guts of a soloist, for all music!
...with very poorly orchestrated music as an exception? Like when they add an orchestra to a popular music song so you can't even hear the winds?  8)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mark G. Simon on March 01, 2009, 07:54:32 PM
...with very poorly orchestrated music as an exception? Like when they add an orchestra to a popular music song so you can't even hear the winds?  8)

When you're on stage and you and you alone are responsible for playing a specific part, and the conductor expects you to play it absolutely perfectly, not too loud, not too soft, with the right expression, just as he's rehearsed it, you've got to have nerves of steel.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: max on March 01, 2009, 08:52:35 PM
I wish I understood Stravinsky better. I almost feel like an idiot with so many brilliant minds expounding his genius. I listened to many of the works mentioned here but the ones I have the most respect for is when he borrowed from someone else.

I guess I must be some kind of musical nematoid!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: jowcol on March 03, 2009, 11:48:58 AM
Well, I've gone through quite a few of the CDs, but still have several to listen to.


I've listened to The Song of the Nightingale twice now, and it's just a jaw-dropping piece. I'm surprised it's not more popular than it is. The orchestration is unbelievable- and he uses every technique in the book at that time. He even has major parts for violin to play in a high position on the G String, without glissando or vibrato, and it sounds like a completely different instrument.

A couple others that have caught my attention are:
Les Noces (what a sound!),

Renard (strange attraction to this one- not sure what it is, maybe it has something to do with me listening to the opening score example and explanation of his heterophonic technique... I don't know. Just listening to it gives me this incredible feeling, like nostalgia, even though I haven't heard it before.... but what if I have?)  8)


Persephone (just pure beauty, all there is to say)

Those are both winners.  Les Noces is, to my ears, one of the greatest works of the last Century.  I was just listening to Nightingale again, and really love it.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Guido on March 03, 2009, 03:17:06 PM
Is the Song of the Nightingale related to the opera, The Nightingale?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mark G. Simon on March 03, 2009, 04:20:15 PM
Is the Song of the Nightingale related to the opera, The Nightingale?

Yes, sir. It's basically an orchestral suite from the opera.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Guido on March 03, 2009, 04:34:46 PM
Oh nice, I've always been a fan of the opera - must check out the suite.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on March 13, 2009, 06:36:02 AM
TTT

This thread had nearly drifted to p. 4! Where's the outrage?  ;D

Ray's purchase (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13.msg285372.html#msg285372) is a timely reminder . . . the first I heard the Symphony in Three Movements performed live, it was played by the Cleveland Orchestra at the Blossom Music Center (do they still play there in the summer?)  Piece still gives me chills (it was one of the first Stravinsky scores I bought at Patelson's on West 56th street).

And goodness, the Symphony of Psalms is one of the pinnacles of 20th-c. music.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mark G. Simon on March 13, 2009, 07:29:13 AM
I just heard the Symphony in Three Movements this past weekend. Actually I saw it danced by the New York City Ballet, which was on tour and performing at the Kennedy Center. The choreography by Balanchine was very musical, but I had a hard time paying any attention to it, such is the power of the music. The City Ballet has a wonderful orchestra and their performance would have been worth the price of admission even without the visual aspect. The playing had real punch to it, along with clarity and delicacy when needed.

The ballet opens with a diagonal line of female dancers in white. The principle couple comes out during the bouncy episode with the solo piano, which has the effect of making everything before that sound like an introduction. The slow movement is danced only by the couple. The climactic moment of the finale was very effectively staged with the whole company lined up in rows doing various movements in synch with the irregular rhythms in the orchestra.

One thing I noticed for the first time (even after all these years), was the introduction of a reference to Le Sacre just after the opening tutti of the last movement (EF|G--FEDEF|G--FEDEF etc.).
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ChamberNut on March 13, 2009, 09:32:37 AM
I got a great first impression so far of the Rattle/BP recording of the Symphony in Three and the Symphony of Psalms, although I had to postpone my listening to do a deadline at work.   :-\
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on March 13, 2009, 11:33:27 AM
I just heard the Symphony in Three Movements this past weekend. Actually I saw it danced by the New York City Ballet, which was on tour and performing at the Kennedy Center.

Very nice!  That first occasion of mine at the Blossom Center, it was danced by the SF Ballet.

And I agree, who can pay attention to the dancers, with music that grabs your collar like that?  :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on March 13, 2009, 11:34:25 AM
I got a great first impression so far of the Rattle/BP recording of the Symphony in Three and the Symphony of Psalms, although I had to postpone my listening to do a deadline at work.   :-\

The first CDs I had of Stravinsky were Rattle/CBSO recordings!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Guido on March 13, 2009, 12:36:26 PM
So is that spot in Pulcinella that sounds so much like it came from Mahler 4 intentional, and Ives couldn't have intended to quote Mark Dinning's Teen Angel (I pulled you out and we     were     safe"     in the St Gaudens Mvt Three Places in New England (or could he?)

Presumably the Ives thing is a joke?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ChamberNut on March 13, 2009, 01:08:24 PM
The first CDs I had of Stravinsky were Rattle/CBSO recordings!

Well, this is only my second Stravinsky CD.  I am mightily impressed, just on the first listen of these three symphonies.  I'm looking forward to giving it another spin!  :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Guido on March 16, 2009, 02:30:08 PM
TPIAJ

 :D
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Guido on March 16, 2009, 02:40:46 PM
I'll have to look out that song!

Have been listening to the Symphony in Three Movements and The Nightingale, prompted by this thread - both superb and I can see myself loving them both as much as all the Stravinsky I already know - the boxed set just holds so many treasures!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Guido on March 16, 2009, 02:59:27 PM
cheap tricks?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Guido on March 16, 2009, 03:19:41 PM
ah.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Guido on March 16, 2009, 03:53:14 PM
Not sure I'm convinced by this Song of the Nightingale piece... The opera is much better I think. It all seem a bit fragmented and never really flows like the three great ballet scores that preceeded it.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on March 16, 2009, 07:36:41 PM
Anyone have the Mustonin/Van Keulen music for piano/violin philips 2cd?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on March 17, 2009, 04:33:55 AM
Not sure I'm convinced by this Song of the Nightingale piece... The opera is much better I think.

I certainly agree that the opera is better!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on April 12, 2009, 03:37:36 PM
i've noticed some of the very minor Stravinsky works I've listened to are pretty much horrible...

Oh! Which?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: greg on April 12, 2009, 03:46:38 PM
Oh! Which?
Ok, I'll admit I haven't listened to them all a bunch of times yet, but after a couple of listens, the ones I'm referring to include much of the chamber music- stuff like the Duo Concertant, Piano Sonata, Movements for Piano and Orchestra, etc.
To me, the first two sound like some kid trying to imitate Stravinsky's style and ending up sounding very dull and boring. The third is the same thing, except Schoenberg is the one being imitated.  ;D
Hopefully, I find something to like about them over time...

What do you think about these pieces, Karl?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Nick on April 12, 2009, 04:55:27 PM
As per the other thread, I don't think Stravinsky was on the level with Prokofiev.

As for those pieces, I like the Duo Concertante. The Piano Sonata is alright. I don't think very highly of Rake's Progress, Mavra, the Sonata for 2 pianos, and many of the proto-serial works, including the Movements for piano and orchestra.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on April 12, 2009, 05:05:11 PM
As per the other thread, I don't think Stravinsky was on the level with Prokofiev.

Well, although (again) I don't view the matter at all as needing to have caricatures of the two composers duke it out . . . there is a case to be made for Stravinsky being "the greatest composer of the twentieth century" (accepting for the sake of discussion that such a designation might be fixed).  I don't know how one might plausibly make such a claim of Prokofiev.

Mavra is wonderful.  I like the Movements for piano and orchestra a great deal, too.  For all its brevity, the Symphonies of Wind Instruments is a seminal masterpiece;  and aside from that (so to speak), I find it pure delight to listen to.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Nick on April 12, 2009, 05:11:14 PM
In what sense is there more a case to be made for Stravinsky as the "greatest composer of the 20th century" than Prokofiev?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ChamberNut on April 12, 2009, 05:31:25 PM
Step aside Mr. Prokofiev and Mr. Stravinsky.  Please make way for Mr. Shostakovich!  0:)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: greg on April 12, 2009, 05:35:49 PM
In what sense is there more a case to be made for Stravinsky as the "greatest composer of the 20th century" than Prokofiev?
He was MUCH more influential, for one.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Nick on April 12, 2009, 05:40:51 PM
It's curious that you were very reluctant to take a stand in the "Stravinsky vs. Prokofiev" thread, but you've taken a stand now.

If you think that melody is the most important aspect of music, then that makes you more likely to pick Prokofiev. If you're drawn to serial works, then that probably makes you more likely to pick Stravinsky.

I don't judge a composer based on their degree of influence. If I did, I'd judge Schoenberg or Stravinsky more highly.

To me, the size of a composer's output matters. This makes me think less highly of Stravinsky or the Viennese school than Prokofiev.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Nick on April 12, 2009, 05:45:35 PM
You're absolutely right. Stravinsky was more influential than Prokofiev. I don't consider that a measure of a composer's strength.

Schoenberg was likely a more influential composer than Stravinsky. Does this mean that Schoenberg was more important or even greater than Stravinsky? Stravinsky was also likely the most influenced among the great 20th century composers. Does this mean that he was a lesser composer because of it?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Nick on April 12, 2009, 06:10:55 PM
Even a Prokofiev-hater like Richard Taruskin acknowledges that Prokofiev had a talent for melody that was unsurpassed in the 20th century. If you consider that at the end of their lives, both Stravinsky and Schoenberg acknowledged the supremacy of melody, then you have a reasonable argument that Prokofiev is the greatest of 20th century composers.

Karl Henning may say that it is implausible to make an argument for Prokofiev being the greatest of 20th century composers, but I don't think what I've said in the previous paragraph is implausible. Does anyone think I've said something implausible?

Perhaps it is only implausible in Karl Henning's mind. At any rate, it looks like Karl is just as capable of immaturity as all the rest of us.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on April 13, 2009, 03:34:57 AM
If you think that melody is the most important aspect of music, then that makes you more likely to pick Prokofiev. If you're drawn to serial works, then that probably makes you more likely to pick Stravinsky.

That is a peculiar statement, but at least you are consistent in reducing the matter to improbable simplicities.

Quote
I don't judge a composer based on their degree of influence. If I did, I'd judge Schoenberg or Stravinsky more highly.

Degree of influence is a valid artistic question;  it does in fact mean something artistic, when we acknowledge that Beethoven's music was more influential than that of Dittersdorf.  I'll say for the hundredth time that I do not feel any need to "determine" that either Stravinsky or Prokofiev is "greater" than the other.  I don't know when either Stravinsky or Schoenberg had occasion to slap you around at a formative age, but you should simply admire Prokofiev for the music he wrote, rather than expend pointless energy in "proving" that he's "greater" than either Stravinsky or Schoenberg.

Quote
To me, the size of a composer's output matters. This makes me think less highly of Stravinsky or the Viennese school than Prokofiev.

So you think more highly of Telemann than of Prokofiev, right? And more highly of Haydn as a symphonist than of Prokofiev, right?

Schoenberg was likely a more influential composer than Stravinsky.

(a) How should we "measure" such a thing?

(b) What would be the point?  I mean, a comparison such as "was Stravinsky more influential than Prokofiev?" is comparatively easy (though we agree that the answer does not "mean" that one is "greater" than the other).  But both Schoenberg and Stravinsky have been seminal influences in music.  What does it matter, which of them was "more influential"?

Even a Prokofiev-hater like Richard Taruskin acknowledges that Prokofiev had a talent for melody that was unsurpassed in the 20th century. If you consider that at the end of their lives, both Stravinsky and Schoenberg acknowledged the supremacy of melody, then you have a reasonable argument that Prokofiev is the greatest of 20th century composers.

Karl Henning may say that it is implausible to make an argument for Prokofiev being the greatest of 20th century composers, but I don't think what I've said in the previous paragraph is implausible. Does anyone think I've said something implausible?

If a bizarre grasp of the facts, and a penchant for eccentric irrelevance, are related to implausibility, then, yes, what you've said is implausible.  Stravinsky and Schoenberg were melodic composers throughout their careers;  your cartoon of "deathbed melodic conversions" here is . . . weird.

So Prokofiev had a talent for melody; sure, it's one of things (and only one of the things) in his music we all admire and love.  (And, by the way, a talent for melody is not so easy to extricate from a talent for other dimensions of music, as you seem to imply.)  I missed the memo that we can basically forget all other musical considerations, if there's a pretty tune involved.

Be a good chap, remind us all where that pronouncement is posted?

TIA.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on April 13, 2009, 03:55:45 AM
Ok, I'll admit I haven't listened to them all a bunch of times yet, but after a couple of listens, the ones I'm referring to include much of the chamber music- stuff like the Duo Concertant, Piano Sonata, Movements for Piano and Orchestra, etc.
To me, the first two sound like some kid trying to imitate Stravinsky's style and ending up sounding very dull and boring. The third is the same thing, except Schoenberg is the one being imitated.  ;D
Hopefully, I find something to like about them over time...

What do you think about these pieces, Karl?

Gosh, you don't like the Duo Concertant, Greg?  My only complaint is with the historical recording . . . Stravinsky's piano is almost muffled in the background.  A pleasure to hear Szigeti, though, of course.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on April 13, 2009, 03:59:29 AM
Early on, I got very well acquainted with L'histoire (I was in a stage production at my undergrad college). All of Stravinsky's stylistic periods were early imprints for me.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on April 13, 2009, 04:06:30 AM
But then, of course, there's pretty tunes a-plenty in Stravinsky.

Ten fine melodies one recalls right off:

1.  The March from L'histoire du soldat
2.  The Lacrimosa from Requiem Canticles
3.  All of the Cantata, really, but let's settle on "Tomorrow shall be my dancing day"
4.  The Overture to Mavra
5.  The Bridgegroom's song on the last page of Svadebka
6.  The Gloria from the Mass
7.  The Notturno from the Concerto per due pianoforti
8.  More instances than can be briefly mentioned, in the Symphony in Three Movements and the Symphony in C.
9.  The Alleluia which concludes A Sermon, A Narrative & A Prayer.
10.  And, of course, the Alleluia at the end of the Symphony of Psalms.

. . . and this list makes a point of avoiding "the usual suspects," i.e., the folk melody borrowings in Le sacre, Petrushka & L'oiseau, and the 'found sources' of the neo-classical works.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 13, 2009, 04:07:09 AM
If you think that melody is the most important aspect of music, then that makes you more likely to pick Prokofiev. If you're drawn to serial works, then that probably makes you more likely to pick Stravinsky.

I don't subscribe to that. 
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: greg on April 13, 2009, 05:14:47 AM
Nice posts, Karl. I would add to that list the opening melody to "Renard."  8)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Nick on April 13, 2009, 06:27:35 AM
That is a peculiar statement, but at least you are consistent in reducing the matter to improbable simplicities.

Degree of influence is a valid artistic question;  it does in fact mean something artistic, when we acknowledge that Beethoven's music was more influential than that of Dittersdorf.  I'll say for the hundredth time that I do not feel any need to "determine" that either Stravinsky or Prokofiev is "greater" than the other.  I don't know when either Stravinsky or Schoenberg had occasion to slap you around at a formative age, but you should simply admire Prokofiev for the music he wrote, rather than expend pointless energy in "proving" that he's "greater" than either Stravinsky or Schoenberg.

So you think more highly of Telemann than of Prokofiev, right? And more highly of Haydn as a symphonist than of Prokofiev, right?

(a) How should we "measure" such a thing?

(b) What would be the point?  I mean, a comparison such as "was Stravinsky more influential than Prokofiev?" is comparatively easy (though we agree that the answer does not "mean" that one is "greater" than the other).  But both Schoenberg and Stravinsky have been seminal influences in music.  What does it matter, which of them was "more influential"?

If a bizarre grasp of the facts, and a penchant for eccentric irrelevance, are related to implausibility, then, yes, what you've said is implausible.  Stravinsky and Schoenberg were melodic composers throughout their careers;  your cartoon of "deathbed melodic conversions" here is . . . weird.

So Prokofiev had a talent for melody; sure, it's one of things (and only one of the things) in his music we all admire and love.  (And, by the way, a talent for melody is not so easy to extricate from a talent for other dimensions of music, as you seem to imply.)  I missed the memo that we can basically forget all other musical considerations, if there's a pretty tune involved.

Be a good chap, remind us all where that pronouncement is posted?

TIA.

Talk about reducing the matter to improbable simplicities.

Influence, a talent for melody, how much great music a composer wrote are all variables that influence the degree to which someone might respect a composer. Karl's suggesting here that I've chosen which variable is most important for the rest of you.

But what really galls is your suggestion that a talent for melody is not a valid consideration of musical quality, while the degree of a composer's influence is. But maybe other people have an opinion.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: greg on April 14, 2009, 05:55:08 PM
I just realized this is the same discussion going on 3 threads at the same time...
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Nick on April 15, 2009, 01:48:33 AM
I'm trying to close it in the "Prokofiev vs. Stravinsky" section.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on April 15, 2009, 04:09:52 AM
I just realized this is the same discussion going on 3 threads at the same time...

Right . . . reminds one of A Certain Participant who tends to make every single thread a discussion of Pelléas et Mélisande.  And Another Certain Participant who (until recent sobriety) tended to make every single thread a discussion of Elgar.

Now, a little bird tells me, half of the threads are somehow going to morph into discussions of Prokofiev.

BTW, that is why I brought this question (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,167.msg297999.html#msg297999) here.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on April 15, 2009, 05:05:44 AM
I would add that, to my ear, Stravinsky's music is less often "about the melody" in the way that it can be in Tchaikovsky, Prokofieff, Sibelius, and many others, and when the melody is at the front of our attention in IS, it seldom stays there for long. Although one of his pieces may leave a melody in my head, I never get the sense that the piece was just a stage for a stirring, moving, poignant, or heroic melody as one can say about other pieces. So if you go to IS with an expectation that such a melody is necessary, either for your personal musical pleasure and for the collective musical satisfaction of all right thinking music lovers, you are in the wrong queue.

Excellent observations.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: greg on April 15, 2009, 01:54:29 PM
Don't you just love that closing " ' "signature?
I should end everything I write with a capital G... G
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Guido on April 15, 2009, 04:05:41 PM
Don't you just love that closing " ' "signature?
I should end everything I write with a capital G... G

Yes, I have remarked on its brilliance too.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Nick on April 17, 2009, 11:11:57 PM
I'm not being demeaning here though it could be interpreted that way, but does anyone else see some influence of Poulenc on Stravinsky vis a vis the Sonata for 2 Pianos, Serenade, etc?

Nick
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Guido on April 17, 2009, 11:18:17 PM
I'm not being demeaning here though it could be interpreted that way, but does anyone else see some influence of Poulenc on Stravinsky vis a vis the Sonata for 2 Pianos, Serenade, etc?

Nick

Why would that be demeaning?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ChamberNut on April 18, 2009, 05:00:18 AM
Stravinsky's Violin Concerto is fast becoming one of my favorites of all violin concerti.  It may not be on the same grand scale as Beethoven's, Brahms' or Tchaikovsky, but there is just something unique about it.  I can't quite put my finger on it.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: sul G on April 18, 2009, 05:11:04 AM
Stravinsky's Violin Concerto is fast becoming one of my favorites of all violin concerti.  It may not be on the same grand scale as Beethoven's, Brahms' or Tchaikovsky, but there is just something unique about it.  I can't quite put my finger on it.

It strikes me that this 'can't quite put my finger on it' is one of Stravinsky's special qualities - his thought is so fleet-footed, he's so reluctant to linger on a beautiful idea but is always taking it to new places. (Like Beethoven, Stravinsky isn't really about the idea and more about the process.) So the music often escapes from the listener before its essence has quite been grasped, which means that he (well, me, anyway) keeps coming back for more.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mark G. Simon on April 18, 2009, 07:12:51 AM
It strikes me that this 'can't quite put my finger on it' is one of Stravinsky's special qualities - his thought is so fleet-footed, he's so reluctant to linger on a beautiful idea but is always taking it to new places. (Like Beethoven, Stravinsky isn't really about the idea and more about the process.) So the music often escapes from the listener before its essence has quite been grasped, which means that he (well, me, anyway) keeps coming back for more.


The other part of this thought is that the ideas he doesn't linger on are so arresting  that you feel obliged to come back to them.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ChamberNut on April 18, 2009, 07:15:07 AM
The other part of this thought is that the ideas he doesn't linger on are so arresting  that you feel obliged to come back to them.

I think you're right.   :)  I have to keep coming back to this Violin Concerto.  I like all of it, but particularly the arresting (if I can steal your word) third movement.  0:)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mark G. Simon on April 18, 2009, 07:36:01 AM
Doesn't seem demeaning to me either. I'd be interested in some details in where you sense an influence. There is a famous similarity between the opening of the Serenade (1925) and the opening of Poulenc's Gloria (1959), but there is an pre-Serenade piano piece by Poulenc that I remember hearing (but at the moment,  not which, an intermezzo?) with roughly the same theme (you know how Poulenc recycled so much of his own music). Around that time, Stravinsky (like many others) wrote a lot of short piano pieces that remind me some of Poulenc and Satie, in part because of the genre, which I think attracted Stravinsky because there was a publishing market. After that publishing market fell off (due largely to proliferation of disc recording), he pretty much stopped writing little piano pieces. His first attempt at commercial recordings was of such pieces (unreleased Brunswicks, 1925), and the Serenade was written so that each mvt would fit on each side of a disc.'   

What I find remarkable is how often, and how brazenly Poulenc steals from Stravinsky. The Serenade in A/Gloria connection is one example. Somewhere in Dialogues of the Carmelites is a several measure chunk taken straight from Symphonies of Wind Instruments. There are others..
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Guido on April 19, 2009, 02:20:59 AM
It strikes me that this 'can't quite put my finger on it' is one of Stravinsky's special qualities - his thought is so fleet-footed, he's so reluctant to linger on a beautiful idea but is always taking it to new places. (Like Beethoven, Stravinsky isn't really about the idea and more about the process.) So the music often escapes from the listener before its essence has quite been grasped, which means that he (well, me, anyway) keeps coming back for more.


I'm astounded at how accurately this summarises my feelings of his music (though would never have been able to say so consicely or eloquently). 0:) Cheers!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on April 29, 2009, 11:21:30 AM
Rejoice in the Box!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ChamberNut on April 29, 2009, 11:29:10 AM
Rejoice in the Box!

That is one thing at least that you and James have in common - love for that "big box o' Stavinsky"!  :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on April 29, 2009, 11:45:54 AM
And the shades, don't forget the shades!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on May 19, 2009, 06:26:54 PM
Just a bit of fun, really. (http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/2009/05/objection-sustained.html)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Nick on May 20, 2009, 04:52:33 PM
What are the opinions among Stravinskyites with regard to Rake's Progress?

I just don't find the work very interesting. Most of the rhythms don't hold any special appeal for me although they do in other Stravinsky works, and I've never found myself walking away and enjoying a good tune from this opera. Musically, some of the scenes (like that with the game of cards) seem to drag. The use of recitative seems a bit forced and awkward. I certainly wish we'd hear this less than the Cantata or Persephone, which hold much more appeal for me.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on May 21, 2009, 04:11:06 AM
What are the opinions among Stravinskyites with regard to Rake's Progress?

I don't consider myself a Stravinskyite . . . but since I inaugurated this thread, I shall hazard some answer.

The first two or three times I heard the piece (incidents spread out over a couple of decades), it held no special appeal for me.  One of the drivers for my purchase of the Stravinsky's Own Box (although, face it, the price was right, and the historical/aesthetic interest sufficed) was, curiosity to see if the maestro's own recording of The Rake's Progress might illustrate the opera for me.  And, in fact, I do like much better (and think more highly of) the Progress as a consequence of listening to this performance.

Quote from: Prokofiev1891
I just don't find the work very interesting. Most of the rhythms don't hold any special appeal for me although they do in other Stravinsky works, and I've never found myself walking away and enjoying a good tune from this opera.

If you don't find it interesting, you don't (I didn't, particularly, the first several times, see above).

The fact of not finding oneself enjoying a good tune, is totally beside the point.  A good tune is only one of many possible indicators of musical excellence.  And there's a goodly amount of piffle in the world, which shows a good tune one may without cultural guilt enjoy.

Quote from: Prokofiev1891
Musically, some of the scenes (like that with the game of cards) seem to drag. The use of recitative seems a bit forced and awkward.

I think that's largely going to depend on the performance.  But, again, you offer your impressions (which as such, cannot be argued with, of course).  Your impressions of these elements could possibly change over time.

Myself, I have no trouble with either the scale/pace of the card game, nor with the deliberate (and, I think, charming) reference to recitativo secco.

Quote from: Prokofiev1891
I certainly wish we'd hear this less than the Cantata or Persephone, which hold much more appeal for me.

I can agree with a modification of this sentiment;  and I should rejoice in more frequent performances of both the Cantata and Perséphone.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: owlice on May 21, 2009, 04:19:06 AM
What are the opinions among Stravinskyites with regard to Rake's Progress?

I dozed off during the DVD and will likely donate it to the local library; don't know whether I want to try another go at this work, or at least at this particular performance.

Re: the Violin Concerto, I'll be hearing that (1961 revision) next season with the Baltimore SO and happen to have a spare ticket so will be looking for a home for it next April. (Actually picked that more for the premiere of a new work -- Leshnoff Starburst -- but will be glad to hear Shaham in the VC.)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: matti on May 21, 2009, 04:20:41 AM
Stravinskyite . . .

Ahh, that's Stravinsky gone all Lithuanian!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on May 21, 2009, 04:21:24 AM
I dozed off during the DVD and will likely donate it to the local library . . . .

Just what local libraries need: more dozing  ;)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: owlice on May 21, 2009, 04:29:51 AM
Just what local libraries need: more dozing  ;)

Now, now, SOMEone may like it!

I'd like to get a video of Oedipus Rex at some point, or better, see it live; I've stayed awake through that!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on May 21, 2009, 04:59:30 AM
Now, now, SOMEone may like it!

Yes, one man's Gilda is another man's Micaela . . . .
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Nick on May 21, 2009, 05:26:16 AM
Yeah, Oedipus Rex is more interesting to me. Nightingale is a total masterpiece. I assume there's lots of people here who will be out at the Gergiev Stravinsky festival next season?

Have any of you heard the narration for The Flood in that big old box of Stravinsky? It's very funny and slapstick. Some CD reviewer said, I think, "it is difficult to take the bald narrations seriously, particularly when Laurence Harvey sanctimoniously keeps talking of the will of 'Gud.'"
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on May 21, 2009, 05:39:23 AM
Well, The Flood was an experiment in many ways (and I, for one, find it artistically impressive and admirable for someone closing in on 80 years to take fresh risks).  The Stravinsky's Own rendition necessarily has a certain historical interest . . . but I do think that the Knussen recording is an improvement in certain crucial respects  8)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on May 21, 2009, 05:46:34 AM
Probably I prefer the Craft recording of Threni, and the Jas O'Donnell recording of the Canticum sacrum;  they are expertly executed, inspiringly sharp, and in impeccable sound.  Still, the accounts in The Big Box are great in their own right.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: owlice on May 21, 2009, 06:07:55 AM
Yeah, Oedipus Rex is more interesting to me.

Prokofiev, did you know of the thread on that work from the old forum (http://"http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,4130.0.html")? That thread was my introduction to the work.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on May 21, 2009, 06:11:01 AM
Aye, that was one of a select group of especially spiffy threads in The Old Place!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: owlice on May 21, 2009, 06:34:56 AM
We have our fun, certainly!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on May 21, 2009, 07:06:52 AM
Only the Third Viennese School die young

Quote from: Billy Joel
I'd rather laugh with Stravinsky than cry with Schoenberg.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on May 21, 2009, 08:36:04 AM
No one has mentioned the Septet, one of my gnarly favs.

Currently I have the Salonen/Sony disc with the piano ctos, "Stravinsky in Hollywood" MTT/RCA, the Decca/Ashkenazy 2fer which includes chamber music and more Hollywood/American stuff, and Mutter/DG (great cd with Lutoslawski).

No one has mentioned middling pieces such as Dumbarton Oaks or Concerto in D, not all that great, but...

And I haven't seen much love here for Stravinsky's "Webern period", The Movements, the Double Canon (SQ), the Epitaphalium (trio), the Variations,...I'm not sure HOW many pieces fall into this category. Crystalline (my new fav word)!

Also, I can't seem to keep his late vocal works seperated: Canticum Sacrum, Threni, Requiem Canticles, and isn't there one or two more (Dylan Thomas?)? All I've heard is that Hyperion disc which I recall seemed a saturated sonics wise, blurring the precision?

I do find his Norwegian Moods (not very Nordic), Danses Concertantes, and his Hollywood-type suites rather dull (most of the second disc of the Decca 2fer)...well, no one has mentioned them really, so I expect you all feel about the same here.

I'm surprised so many of you are "just" getting into IS so late (thread started in 2007). I thought EVERYONE had the Mutter disc!

I must say, IS has the most fractured commentary on the concept of a string quartet cycle. His three pieces (3 pieces, Concertino, Double Canon) last about as long as a normal breezy SQ (@15min), and certainly make little sense out of context with the rest of his output. I guess I could have seen him write a substantial 1940s style neo-classical SQ that probably would have sounded "white" and probably not that exciting, perhaps like blanched Hindemith, or more likely like Chavez's No.3, a Martha Graham inspired SQ.

btw- which Symphony (in C, or 3 mvmts) has that awesome fading ending that ends on "that" shimmering chord? I'm remembering IS's own recording that must be in the "big box." I think that's my fav ending to almost any work. I used to keep rewinding it over and over. Anyone feel the same way?

Picture IS, Reger, and Babbitt standing next to one another!!! Harhar...
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: jowcol on May 21, 2009, 09:15:12 AM
I feel the love for the last movement of Dumbarton Oaks-- very powerful, compelling, and logically satisfying.

If you include Agon among the 12 tone works, I think its one of his finest compositions.  What is so brilliant is how he took the form, and some liberties with it, and made it his own.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on May 21, 2009, 09:16:23 AM
If you include Agon among the 12 tone works, I think its one of his finest compositions.

I think it one of his finest, regardless  8) ;)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Herman on May 21, 2009, 09:29:20 AM
I like Agon a lot, too, and that "Stravinsky in Hollywood" cd with MTT has an excellent version  -  the piece is very hard to play well.

BTW I'm inrigued to see Bily Joel made it to GMG
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Brian on May 21, 2009, 09:42:23 AM
BTW I'm inrigued to see Bily Joel made it to GMG
(http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2009/5/21/128874048709525959.jpg)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on May 21, 2009, 10:38:31 AM
Someone managed to misquote him, too.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Guido on May 21, 2009, 02:49:16 PM
Boulez is not a Stravinsky fan?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Guido on May 21, 2009, 03:09:25 PM
Oh yeah, I should have guessed.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on May 21, 2009, 04:42:29 PM
Ah, well . . . I cannot much interest myself in the interstices of Boulez's dislikes.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Nick on May 21, 2009, 05:02:58 PM
I really dislike Boulez.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on May 21, 2009, 05:04:53 PM
I really dislike Boulez.

I prefer him as composer; don't have much use for him as an opinionator.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Nick on May 21, 2009, 05:10:05 PM
I agree with you there.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Herman on May 25, 2009, 12:28:05 AM
I prefer him as composer; don't have much use for him as an opinionator.

or as a conductor, surely?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on May 25, 2009, 01:27:32 PM
or as a conductor, surely?

Well, in the 'voting with my feet' sense, Herman.  I don't own many recordings he's conducted; nor have I seen him live.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on May 30, 2009, 03:40:24 AM
I wonder who, if anyone, will conduct a fresh recording of Threni.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on May 30, 2009, 03:53:40 AM
Also, I can't seem to keep his late vocal works seperated: Canticum Sacrum, Threni, Requiem Canticles . . .

You don't mean it?  To my ear these three have perfectly distinct profiles.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on May 30, 2009, 01:28:43 PM
We can dream, '
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: jowcol on June 08, 2009, 08:02:46 AM
But then, of course, there's pretty tunes a-plenty in Stravinsky.

Ten fine melodies one recalls right off:

1.  The March from L'histoire du soldat
2.  The Lacrimosa from Requiem Canticles
3.  All of the Cantata, really, but let's settle on "Tomorrow shall be my dancing day"
4.  The Overture to Mavra
5.  The Bridgegroom's song on the last page of Svadebka
6.  The Gloria from the Mass
7.  The Notturno from the Concerto per due pianoforti
8.  More instances than can be briefly mentioned, in the Symphony in Three Movements and the Symphony in C.
9.  The Alleluia which concludes A Sermon, A Narrative & A Prayer.
10.  And, of course, the Alleluia at the end of the Symphony of Psalms.

. . . and this list makes a point of avoiding "the usual suspects," i.e., the folk melody borrowings in Le sacre, Petrushka & L'oiseau, and the 'found sources' of the neo-classical works.

One of the greatest melodic works of Stravinsky is his Pastorale-- that is really lovely-- it's been on repeat this morning.  Although I would  certain rank Prokofiev's gifts with melody much higher. 

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on June 08, 2009, 08:10:52 AM
Quote
We can dream, '

Curious.  The post to which I replied there has been deleted (by the author, I presume, as there was no offense in't that I knew of).

Ah, well.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2009, 07:31:16 AM
One of the greatest melodic works of Stravinsky is his Pastorale-- that is really lovely-- it's been on repeat this morning.  Although I would  certain rank Prokofiev's gifts with melody much higher. 

I know I've listened to the Pastorale; but I don't recall a note of it.  Where 20 other pieces of Stravinsky's, were memorable from an initial hearing.

Just an observation. I haven't sussed out its significance (yet).
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Nick on June 13, 2009, 06:04:04 PM
Is "Le Baiser de la Fee" a neoclassical or a neoromantic work?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on June 14, 2009, 06:14:34 AM
Honk if you've heard the "Igor's Boogie" tracks on Burnt Weenie Sandwich
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Nick on June 15, 2009, 01:13:09 PM
In your opinion, should pieces like Le Baiser de la Fee, Pulcinella, Suite Italienne be hyphenated (i.e. Tchaikovsky-Stravinsky, etc.)? Be cited as an arrangement (i.e. Tchaikovsky [arr. Stravinsky])? Credited with Stravinsky's name only? Why or why not?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Nick on June 15, 2009, 01:42:31 PM
So you would credit the music with only Stravinsky's name?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Nick on June 15, 2009, 02:11:36 PM
I think Stravinsky should get the same kind of crediting treatment that everyone else does. There's, what, 20-30 different pieces that are extracted from Tchaikovsky in that work? If it were any other composer, it would be listed as an arrangement. A lot of Respighi's works are like this, and they're listed with Respighi at a latter part of the hyphen.

In Pulcinella, there's 21 musical numbers with 21 different sources from Baroque composers.

I like Stravinsky (not as much as some of you), but he's overrated, and he should be looked at in a more even-handed way.

Melodies are a big deal, and a lot of these transcriptions are very straight-forward
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Nick on June 15, 2009, 02:46:27 PM
If they did, in fact, use a theme from Stravinsky, they should have credited him.

Rhythms are different from melodies. Taking the theme from Sleeping Beauty is different than using 4/4, like in Sleeping Beauty.

Taking one melody is different from a composition composed entirely out of other people's melodies. Even when you do take one melody, we have titles like Variations on a Theme of Frank Bridge. This is important.

If a composer doesn't credit the person in the title, (ala. Tchaikovsky: Suite for Orchestra, No.4, Op. 61 "Mozartiana," etc.), he should do it the way everyone else does it, with Tchaikovsky (arr. Stravinsky): Le Basir de la Fee. I don't particularly respect Stravinsky for keeping quite on folk-based material for his most famous scores either.

I'll be back later tonight--errands.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on June 15, 2009, 03:55:40 PM
I like Stravinsky (not as much as some of you), but he's overrated . . . .

Is he?  How do we try that assertion, pray?

Quote
Melodies are a big deal, and a lot of these transcriptions are very straight-forward

If you think that Pulcinella and Le baiser de la fée are "straight-forward transcriptions," then what is "overrated" here is your musical analysis.

Good errand-running to you!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Nick on June 15, 2009, 05:06:29 PM
Good errand-running to you!

Try to calm down.

Is he? How do we try that assertion, pray?
How do we try the assertion for anything having to do with the quality of art?

Maybe one way you can try making qualitative assertions about music is to actually listen to all the works of certain composers before making comparative statements about absolute greatness.

If you think that Pulcinella and Le baiser de la fée are "straight-forward transcriptions," then what is "overrated" here is your musical analysis.

Overrated (adj): Anything that is given too much credit and hype.

Here's a quote from Robert Craft: "The only original Stravinsky music in Pulcinella is a short bridge section and the introduction to the Tarantella. . . . The Pulcinella Gavotta and its Variations, the Toccata (from the Seventh Sonata for Clavier), the Tarantella, the Overture and the other pieces from the First, Second, and Eighth Sonatas for Two Violins, the cut time 'Troika' (Scherzino), the Serenata (Polidoro's aria from the first act of Il Flamino), and the Minuet (another opera aria) are in substance only slightly altered from the originals; moreover, Stravinsky has incorporated most of the pieces in their entireties."
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on June 16, 2009, 03:40:20 PM
Try to calm down.

Pray, who is anything other than calm?

Quote from: Nick
Maybe one way you can try making qualitative assertions about music is to actually listen to all the works of certain composers before making comparative statements about absolute greatness.

So, you have listened to all of Stravinsky's works, and you are pronouncing to the world that he is "overrated";  and anyone who contests your statement (which means scarcely anything, save that your preferences are elsewhere), I suppose that person's "error" stems from the fact that he's actually listened to less of Stravinsky's music than have you?

Quote from: Nick
Overrated (adj): Anything that is given too much credit and hype.

Oh! Someone who imagines that we lack a dictionary!  Jolly good, pumping up your fatuity quotient!

Quote from: Nick
Here's a quote from Robert Craft: "The only original Stravinsky music in Pulcinella is a short bridge section and the introduction to the Tarantella. . . . The Pulcinella Gavotta and its Variations, the Toccata (from the Seventh Sonata for Clavier), the Tarantella, the Overture and the other pieces from the First, Second, and Eighth Sonatas for Two Violins, the cut time 'Troika' (Scherzino), the Serenata (Polidoro's aria from the first act of Il Flamino), and the Minuet (another opera aria) are in substance only slightly altered from the originals; moreover, Stravinsky has incorporated most of the pieces in their entireties."

Here's three pieces of news for you:

1.)  I have read a great deal more that Craft has had to say about the piece than this.  And I've read a great deal that Craft has had to say about Le baiser de la fée, besides.  In neither case does his commentary reduce facilely to "this piece is just straight-forward transcription."

2.) Specifically, this passage you have cited does not mean that Pulcinella is "just straight-forward transcription."

3.) If Pulcinella is only "straight-forward transcriptions," then put your musical intelligence where your mouth is:  transcribe something (anything) straightforwardly, and it will be just as good, right?  Of course, it will!  You can set to work anytime;  we'll all await the musical result.  If Stravinsky's work here is "overrated," why then, your only slight alterations from the original(s) will be just as good, won't they?

If you see no difference in the order of creative input which Stravinsky applied to the source material for Pulcinella, in comparison to (e.g.) his scoring of Bach's Vom Himmel hoch Canonic Variations (which I am sure you have studied closely, since you're here 'correcting' the consensus by your revelation that Stravinsky is "overrated"), then you have gauged your musical acumen quite sufficiently.

One of the variants on the old joke is, How many drummers does it take to change a light-bulb?

25:  One to change the bulb, and 24 to claim, "Heck, I can do that."

I see drumsticks in your hand, Nick.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on June 16, 2009, 03:41:24 PM
What do these pieces have in common (apart from the fact that they are by Stravinsky)?

Violin Concerto
Renard
Jeu de Cartes
Duo Concertant
Cantata
...

'
(I think Karl's going to get it')

Well, I was trying to do a little searching to test my guess.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on June 17, 2009, 01:54:03 AM
Hmm. Let me mull . . . .
Title: Happy 127th, Igor
Post by: Brewski on June 17, 2009, 04:34:04 AM
Note Google's special Greeting as a Prelude to your searches today.'

Nice, isn't it!  And Tom Service in The Guardian has good comments on the whole thing, here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/tomserviceblog/2009/jun/17/google-stravinsky).

--Bruce
Title: Happy 127th, Igor Fyodorovich!
Post by: karlhenning on June 17, 2009, 04:43:17 AM
Yes, although he sounds surprised that the art dept at Google isn't as good as Chagall  8)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Nick on June 17, 2009, 05:29:37 AM
So, you have listened to all of Stravinsky's works, and you are pronouncing to the world that he is "overrated";  and anyone who contests your statement (which means scarcely anything, save that your preferences are elsewhere), I suppose that person's "error" stems from the fact that he's actually listened to less of Stravinsky's music than have you?
Hey Karl, what's your favorite recording of Prokofiev's Two Poems for Women's Voice and Orchestra, Op.7?

This seems like a "let's change the topic!" Clearly, I was referring to the fact that you haven't heard a lot of Prokofiev music.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Nick on June 17, 2009, 06:33:43 AM
One of the variants on the old joke is, How many drummers does it take to change a light-bulb?

25:  One to change the bulb, and 24 to claim, "Heck, I can do that."

I see drumsticks in your hand, Nick.

Now this you're actually right about. A drummer came over to my place yesterday to practice. I was actually a tap dancer and danced at (Broadway: Alice Tully Hall, Town Hall, Duke Ellington Theatre and Off-Broadway: Public Theatre, Village Gate) as a soloist.

I danced with a spoon man too at Alice Tully, I think. He had a lot of spoons.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Nick on June 17, 2009, 06:46:37 AM
Oh! Someone who imagines that we lack a dictionary!  Jolly good, pumping up your fatuity quotient!

Dear dumbass, why are you so stupid? I was saying that the best way to appreciate and assess a piece of music is to listen to it. If you're going to throw a temper-tantrum every time we engage in perfectly acceptable discourse, just leave out some of the bathroom humor.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Nick on June 17, 2009, 09:03:46 AM
2.) Specifically, this passage you have cited does not mean that Pulcinella is "just straight-forward transcription."

Tell us then how a piece that does not contain any original music except a short bridge section and introduction to the Tarantella, with a source for each of its numbers, most of which are incorporated in their entireties, unaltered is an original piece of music.

So you've read Robert Craft. Point us to the page where tells us, "I take it back. There's more original Stravinsky music in Pulcinella other than a short bridge section and introduction to Tarantella." Show me the page where he says that Stravinsky does not take the pieces in their entireties.

3.) If Pulcinella is only "straight-forward transcriptions," then put your musical intelligence where your mouth is:  transcribe something (anything) straightforwardly, and it will be just as good, right?  Of course, it will!  You can set to work anytime;  we'll all await the musical result.  If Stravinsky's work here is "overrated," why then, your only slight alterations from the original(s) will be just as good, won't they?
This is nonsense. Of course, if I take a CD of the best Verdi arias, taking out a note here and there from the second oboe, I'd have a pretty good program! I'd just slap my name to it, and somewhere on the last page of the notes, I'd say something about Verdi.

It was actually in conversation with a music Professor at Vassar College (and Stravinskyite) that we came to the conclusion that anyone else in the 20th century would not have gotten away with the kind of crediting that went on in Pulcinella and Le Basir de la Fee.

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on June 17, 2009, 09:49:47 AM
It was actually in conversation with a music Professor at Vassar College (and Stravinskyite) that we came to the conclusion that anyone else in the 20th century would not have gotten away with the kind of crediting that went on in Pulcinella and Le Basir de la Fee.

Two people can agree on almost anything, of course.  Except on spelling.

Clearly, I was referring to the fact that you haven't heard a lot of Prokofiev music.

And your source for this "fact"?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Dr. Dread on June 17, 2009, 09:52:14 AM
*peeks head in. snorts. leaves*
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Nick on June 17, 2009, 10:23:11 AM
And your source for this "fact"?

About The Gambler, Op.24
I gave a slight listen to the opera (probably not the whole thing, either.

About The Fiery Angel, Op.37:
Once on a time (back in Buffalo) I did own a recording of the complete opera.  The recording passed out of my possession before I could get to know it properly.

About music for piano solo:
But basta, what about Sarcasms, Op.17; Things in Themselves, Op.45; Sonatinas, Op.54; Thoughts, Op.62? How did we have those absurd discussions on Stravinsky's and Prokofiev's relative merits with so much output unheard?
I've asked this a lot and have never gotten an answer.

About Winter Bonfire, Op.122:
I need to revisit it . . . I think I've only listened to it once, and none too recently.

About the lieder:
I've got the 3-disc (Delos?) box of the complete voice-&-piano works . . . I haven't quite listened to it all, yet, but I've greatly enjoyed everything I have heard.  Especially The Ugly Duckling, wonderful!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on June 17, 2009, 05:59:10 PM
About The Gambler, Op.24
About The Fiery Angel, Op.37:
About music for piano solo: I've asked this a lot and have never gotten an answer.

About Winter Bonfire, Op.122:
About the lieder:

That's just flat-out silly. Not that Karl needs anyone to speak for him but the one thing I know for certain is for every work on your list there are at least five Prokofiev works Karl DOES know.

How do I know this? My ears perk whenever anybody on GMG posts about Prokofiev and I can tell you from experience that Karl is perhaps the strongest advocate for Prokofiev on this board. 

So take a breather already...
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Nick on June 17, 2009, 06:54:15 PM
Karl knows Prokofiev pieces.

That's just flat-out silly. Not that Karl needs anyone to speak for him but the one thing I know for certain is for every work on your list there are at least five Prokofiev works Karl DOES know.
Even by your algorithm, 10 x 5 is not a lot of music.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on June 17, 2009, 06:58:37 PM
Even by your algorithm, 10 x 5 is not a lot of music.

It's not NOT a lot of music, either! :D
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Nick on June 17, 2009, 07:01:47 PM
It's not NOT a lot of music, either! :D

Prokofiev music--that's a lot of music.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on June 18, 2009, 03:48:39 AM
Quote
And your source for this "fact"?

Your "algorithm," in both method and theory, is rubbish, Nick. Your "fact" is indeed flat-out silly.

And, you are consistently de-railing a thread about Stravinsky.

You are behaving like a troll.

The only question is, are you a troll, indeed?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: knight66 on June 18, 2009, 04:07:35 AM
OK gents, time out. This is a thread on Stravinsky, not a discussion on how much or little Karl knows about another composer altogether. So, back on track please and no eye gouging.

Knight
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on June 19, 2009, 04:02:59 AM
A friend of mine recently reiterated that, much though he enjoys the larger part of Igor Fyodorovich's oeuvre, the serial Stravinsky is "just not [his] cuppa."  To be sure, one's cuppa is one's cuppa, and there you have it.

What serial Stravinsky are you agog over?  (If any.)

At Buffalo I wrote a paper on the Requiem Canticles;  I shan't try to dig it up, for I don't think the paper would particularly repay the redig effort.  But the piece itself, I still find wonderful.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on June 19, 2009, 06:09:05 AM
This (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,92.msg322542.html#msg322542) is apt here, too.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: jowcol on June 19, 2009, 06:36:52 AM
Agon would top the list of "Agog-ness" for me for serial Stravinsky-- one of the reasons is that it's not all dogmatically serial, but rather mixes diatonic and serial.  Was it Berio that said something to the effect that Agon was a "short history of music that performed a tragic autopsy on itself?"  There is also a driving rhythmic aspect to Agon that I really like. Together, its a winner. 

Lately, I've been listening to the Ebony Concerto a lot, and the Symphonies for Wind.  Something very cool and dry about them. 
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on June 19, 2009, 06:43:17 AM
Yes, the Symphonies is a piece I gladly pound the table for.  Heard it live at NEC a few years back . . . pure musical joy to hear those rich chords of the closing chorale ring out in the space!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Nick on June 19, 2009, 12:45:13 PM
I'm a big fan of Agon myself.

Frankly, I really appreciate it when a composer takes elements of particular modern trends and incorporates them as part of his arsenal--doesn't use it as dogma or an intellectual exercise, but just goes about his or her business with another tool.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2009, 04:36:57 AM
Gearing up to discuss Le sacre in detail. (It would be a pity to let The Unrepentant Ditherer set the tone for this masterwork.)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2009, 05:45:20 AM
I don't often see questions phrased as if a cat is asking  ;)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2009, 06:53:39 AM
We have our fun, certainly!

More of this.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: The new erato on July 06, 2009, 08:32:35 AM
Lots of agon-nizing here.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: not edward on July 06, 2009, 09:32:50 AM
I don't often see questions phrased as if a cat is asking  ;)
Does the cat have berceuses?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on July 07, 2009, 02:38:16 AM
What is this thing called polytonality?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Franco on August 20, 2009, 10:56:06 AM
Found this pretty amazing video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Opvhi2UOkY&feature=related) on Youtube of a student orchestra/pianist giving a fantastic performance of a difficult work.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ChamberNut on September 15, 2009, 08:30:53 AM
*Ahem* :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on September 15, 2009, 08:32:13 AM
Ray is one of us, now!  :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on September 15, 2009, 08:33:13 AM
Ray . . . have you hit the Symphonies of Wind Instruments yet, have you, have you?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ChamberNut on September 15, 2009, 08:34:42 AM
OK, so I'm still relatively new when it comes to Stravinsky.

These are the works I have heard so far:

The Rite of Spring
Violin Concerto
Symphony in C
Symphony in Three Movements
Symphony of Psalms
The Firebird
Jeu de Cartes
Petrouchka
The Nightingale

With the exception of me being lukewarm on "The Nightingale" opera, everything else I've like a lot to really, really, really loved!  :)

Obviously, there is way more to discover, and I'm quite excited.  0:)

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ChamberNut on September 15, 2009, 08:35:11 AM
Ray . . . have you hit the Symphonies of Wind Instruments yet, have you, have you?

Not yet cher ami.  :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on September 15, 2009, 08:35:46 AM
I get chills just thinking of the Symphony of Psalms.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ChamberNut on September 15, 2009, 08:37:26 AM
I get chills just thinking of the Symphony of Psalms.

Yes, I love this one.  So far, from the symphonies, the Symphony in C is my current favorite.  Perhaps once I hear the Winds one, that could change?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: springrite on September 15, 2009, 08:38:56 AM
Yes, I love this one.  So far, from the symphonies, the Symphony in C is my current favorite.  Perhaps once I hear the Winds one, that could change?

I can just smell the Wind of Change in the air...
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ChamberNut on September 15, 2009, 08:39:34 AM
All of a sudden, that big box 'o Stravinsky that Karl and James rave about is looking mighty tantalizing.  And the price is right too for all that music.  :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Brewski on September 15, 2009, 09:09:43 AM
So many great Stravinsky works...

Do check out the Concerto in E-Flat, "Dumbarton Oaks," one of his neo-classic gems, and one of my faves, Le Baiser de la fée (The Fairy's Kiss), a ballet with themes from Tchaikovsky.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ChamberNut on September 15, 2009, 09:26:09 AM
So many great Stravinsky works...

Do check out the Concerto in E-Flat, "Dumbarton Oaks," one of his neo-classic gems, and one of my faves, Le Baiser de la fée (The Fairy's Kiss), a ballet with themes from Tchaikovsky.

--Bruce

Ballet & Tchaikovsky = 99.9999% certainty that I will enjoy it!  ;D

Thank you for those recommendations.  I'll be on the lookout.  :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 15, 2009, 09:29:16 AM
So many great Stravinsky works...

Do check out the Concerto in E-Flat, "Dumbarton Oaks," one of his neo-classic gems, and one of my faves, Le Baiser de la fée (The Fairy's Kiss), a ballet with themes from Tchaikovsky.

--Bruce

Mine, too! Even though it is to incur the eternal wrath of Richard Taruskin, who finds the whole work lamentable in its backwardlooking-ness. Well, I find it one of Stravinsky's most atmospheric scores, with a Coda that is among his most moving.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Brewski on September 15, 2009, 09:35:58 AM
Mine, too! Even though it is to incur the eternal wrath of Richard Taruskin, who finds the whole work lamentable in its backwardlooking-ness. Well, I find it one of Stravinsky's most atmospheric scores, with a Coda that is among his most moving.

Well, one man's "backwardlooking-ness" is another's sweet nostalgia (or something like that  ;)).  I find Baiser an elegant work, and its use of Tchaikovsky very graceful. 

Also, Stravinsky adapted it in a version for violin and piano, the Divertimento, and IMHO it works just as well in this format.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Franco on September 15, 2009, 09:58:57 AM
Quote
Richard Taruskin, who finds the whole work lamentable in its backwardlooking-ness.

It always tends to bother me when the parasite complains about the taste of his host.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 15, 2009, 10:13:03 AM
It always tends to bother me when the parasite complains about the taste of his host.

I think Taruskin would like the elegance of your put-down...  ;)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ChamberNut on September 16, 2009, 07:33:42 AM
            (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/7985870.jpg)

It seems Sony 22 CD Stravinsky Edition is finally due for reappearance. So far only jpc is listing it for pre-order and the price looks right.

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/7985870/rk/classic/rsk/novelties (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/7985870/rk/classic/rsk/novelties)

How complete is this set?  Mighty tempting.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on September 16, 2009, 07:37:24 AM
As near complete as dammit.  The only things I can think of offhand which it lacks, are very minor and/or offshoot-ly items (The Mushrooms Go to War . . . Canon on a Russian folksong . . . e.g.)

Dive right in, Ray!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Franco on September 16, 2009, 07:42:51 AM
It is well worth the investment - one of the best big box sets I've ever bought.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Guido on September 16, 2009, 08:12:26 AM
The only piece it is missing which has any importance is the three pieces for string quartet, but they're easily obtainable elsewhere. It's one of the best things you could ever spend £17.99 on.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ChamberNut on September 16, 2009, 08:18:33 AM
Any liner notes included with this box set?  Not that big of a deal, just curious.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on September 16, 2009, 08:26:27 AM
Any liner notes included with this box set?  Not that big of a deal, just curious.

22-pp booklet, performer info on all the works. 
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ChamberNut on September 16, 2009, 08:34:24 AM
Thanks Karl.  I believe I shall order it (have it shipped at work).  ;D
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on September 16, 2009, 10:17:53 AM
And, of course, Ray, you'll want a better Agon than the "Los Angeles Festival Symphony Orchestra"  0:)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on September 16, 2009, 10:26:31 AM
Grumble noted  8)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Franco on September 16, 2009, 10:35:36 AM
And, of course, Ray, you'll want a better Agon than the "Los Angeles Festival Symphony Orchestra"  0:)

Yes, you keep complaining about this recording - but have yet to fully explain your problem other than a vague mention of mistakes.  I just purchased the score and would be interested in a discussion of it (it is one of my favorite Stravinsky compositions).

A GMG Agon critical listening party anyone?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on September 16, 2009, 10:40:51 AM
Yes, you keep complaining about this recording - but have yet to fully explain your problem other than a vague mention of mistakes.

Yes, but I may have mentioned that I am playing a recital tomorrow  $:) 0:)

. . . I just purchased the score and would be interested in a discussion of it (it is one of my favorite Stravinsky compositions).

A GMG Agon critical listening party anyone?

Sure.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ChamberNut on September 16, 2009, 01:06:30 PM
Thanks Karl.  I believe I shall order it (have it shipped at work).  ;D

Less than $2.50 CDN a disc.  Can't wait!  Should arrive next week.  :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on September 16, 2009, 06:33:45 PM
Excellent!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ChamberNut on September 17, 2009, 03:44:23 AM
Now, the most difficult decision will be:  What the hell do I listen to first?  I'll either just start the boring way...with Disc 1 all the way to 22, or do random disc selections and leave it to chance. 0:)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ChamberNut on September 17, 2009, 04:28:00 AM
Or you could try to answer my question that everyone ignored:

What do these pieces have in common?

Violin Concerto
Renard
Cantata
Card Party

'

Perhaps I can attempt an answer once I've heard the Renard and Cantata pieces.  ;D
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Guido on September 17, 2009, 04:33:39 AM
What a un-Hobson-like choice this is; no way to go wrong.  I find myself listening to periods and places, esp. in the transitions. Like the stuff toward the end of the Diaghilev period, the odd and ends he put out at the same time comprise a wild spectrum, the musical offspring of a sort of wandering musical promiscuity: huge ballets, peasant songs, short-lived dabblings with pianola and parlor piano and cimbaloms, often tinged with a Russianness that sometimes seems like marketing and sometimes seems like homesickness.

Or the smaller scale exploratory things and rewrites after the move to LA.


Don't know the answer to your question sorry. Could you be specific about some of the pieces you're talking about above?

I loved both of your stories above by the way - the violin concerto one and the concerto for two pianos one (what a marvellous piece that and the double piano sonata are!!)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Franco on September 17, 2009, 04:39:18 AM
I think you should start with the Ballets Vol. II set.  It is the second group of three disks.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Guido on September 17, 2009, 05:44:52 AM
Cheers - I'll have a go with them.

Good addendum and I wish you all the best with your meeting.

Quote
esp. if he brings up Carmina Burana or the question of whether music IS a language

Now you've piqued my interest again!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on September 17, 2009, 06:17:54 AM
Love, love, love that Concerto for two pianos.  Heard it first in a class where we were analyzing it.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on September 17, 2009, 06:36:21 AM
A GMG Agon critical listening party anyone?

I do think this a lovely idea, Franco;  I'll start a specific thread . . . .
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on September 17, 2009, 06:42:17 AM
. . . here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,14462.msg356206.html#msg356206).
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on September 17, 2009, 06:46:32 AM
I know...in any event that recording alone was enough for me to totally fall in love with that piece, and take my appreciation of the composer to a whole new level!

That's okay;  even a lesser recording (and in all events, this recording does benefit from the composer's presence) is sufficient to inspire love for a great music.  I have no quarrel with that.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Franco on September 17, 2009, 06:56:30 AM
I know...in any event that recording alone was enough for me to totally fall in love with that piece, and take my appreciation of the composer to a whole new level!

I hope you join the listening thread - the more the merrier.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on September 17, 2009, 06:59:59 AM
By all means!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Franco on September 17, 2009, 07:07:35 AM
Of course it's ok, and I'm not alone in liking that recording either.


Right, right - if you join the listening thread you might find out (I know this is what I'm hoping to do)  just why people do criticize this performance.  Karl is certainly not the only one I've heard make this remark.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Franco on September 17, 2009, 07:28:47 AM
Franco, I'm already familar with the piece though so I have no need for that, I'm consumed with Wagner at the moment and plan on focusing on him for quite awhile.

Be careful.   People have been known to enter that jungle never to be seen again.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ChamberNut on September 17, 2009, 08:16:36 AM
',

I can't read the small print?   ;D
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on September 17, 2009, 08:18:36 AM
Of course, the Ragtime for Eleven Instruments is just good, clean fun.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Guido on September 17, 2009, 08:24:09 AM
I was more meaning the Carmina Burana reference.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on September 17, 2009, 08:35:36 AM
I've meant to ask: Are you the crux of the biscuit?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: DavidW on September 17, 2009, 08:43:02 AM
Of course, the Ragtime for Eleven Instruments is just good, clean fun.

Heck yeah dude. 8)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on September 17, 2009, 08:49:49 AM
I thought it was you who already had. I got a lot of teasing in elementary school.'

Probably. My memory won't be what it is.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: DavidW on September 17, 2009, 10:44:15 AM
I have that as well James, it's awesome I love it. :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ChamberNut on September 22, 2009, 04:34:18 PM
Tick-tock, tick-tock, tick-tock.......

As Ray stares unflinchingly at his mailbox
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on September 23, 2009, 11:37:12 AM
Was I hearing Leroy Anderson in the background of your post?
'

You evil man punctuation!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ChamberNut on September 23, 2009, 01:17:35 PM
The Stravinsky set has arrived!  Won't have time to listen until tomorrow at work.

Did a quick inspection of the discs. Disc 4, 6 and 22 have a very minor scuff/scratch.  Those will be the ones I test out first, to ensure they are playable (I'd say they are).  It was only packaged in one layer of brown paper  :o, so I'm really glad the set was not dented or damaged during transport.  Yikes.  >:(
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: DavidW on September 23, 2009, 04:11:02 PM
The Stravinsky set has arrived!  Won't have time to listen until tomorrow at work.

Did a quick inspection of the discs. Disc 4, 6 and 22 have a very minor scuff/scratch.  Those will be the ones I test out first, to ensure they are playable (I'd say they are).  It was only packaged in one layer of brown paper  :o, so I'm really glad the set was not dented or damaged during transport.  Yikes.  >:(

You should consider leaving negative feedback so that other buyers may be made aware of how poor the seller packages his shipments. :-\
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ChamberNut on September 24, 2009, 03:32:54 AM
You should consider leaving negative feedback so that other buyers may be made aware of how poor the seller packages his shipments. :-\

David, what would you give as a rating?  Since the product did arrive without exterior damage (although it could have easily been).  3 or 4 out of 5?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on September 24, 2009, 03:50:17 AM
The Stravinsky set has arrived!

Huzzah!

Quote from: ChamberNut
Won't have time to listen until tomorrow at work.

One of those curious times when one can hardly wait to get back to work  ;D
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on September 24, 2009, 03:51:08 AM
David, what would you give as a rating?  Since the product did arrive without exterior damage (although it could have easily been).  3 or 4 out of 5?

Try contacting the seller first, perhaps they will suggest a remedy.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: DavidW on September 24, 2009, 07:08:46 AM
David, what would you give as a rating?  Since the product did arrive without exterior damage (although it could have easily been).  3 or 4 out of 5?

3 suggests a warning but not pissed off.  Besides many people don't read anything rated high or low because there are too many extremists out there! :D
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: DavidW on September 24, 2009, 07:10:17 AM
Try contacting the seller first, perhaps they will suggest a remedy.

But the point is to warn other customers.  On one hand you might take customers away from the buyer, but on the other you are saving potential customers the grief of receiving items poorly packaged.  It's not as if the seller is an ignorant fool, any adult would know that packaging is not up to par.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ChamberNut on September 25, 2009, 03:52:26 AM
Question:  Why would Stravinsky compose suites for some of his ballets, when most of his ballets are already very short (around 30 minutes)?

I can see the value for some of the long ballets like Romeo & Juliet or Swan Lake, etc.  But.....for Petrushka?  Firebird?  They are already so short.  ???

Not knocking it, just found it a bit puzzling.  Unless of course......the suites came first.

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: DavidW on September 25, 2009, 04:49:27 AM
Chambernut, a ballet is both music and dancing right?  The suite is just the music.  Doesn't matter if the ballet is short or not, a ballet is for performance by orchestra+ballet company, the suite is for performance by orchestra only. :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ChamberNut on September 25, 2009, 06:56:32 AM
Chambernut, a ballet is both music and dancing right?  The suite is just the music.  Doesn't matter if the ballet is short or not, a ballet is for performance by orchestra+ballet company, the suite is for performance by orchestra only. :)

So what?  I listen to the music on a CD (don't care if there is dancing or not).  For the short ballets, I just really don't see the point, since they are almost the same length.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: DavidW on September 25, 2009, 07:24:52 AM
So what?  I listen to the music on a CD (don't care if there is dancing or not).  For the short ballets, I just really don't see the point, since they are almost the same length.

You obviously did not get my point.  The point is that you can't call it a ballet if there are no dancers.  Even if the suite and the ballet are the same music note for note, they still are different.  Get it?

The suite is composed and published to have it performed in the concert hall.  It doesn't matter if it's made shorter, or played practically the same as the ballet.  Why publish a suite if the ballet is short?  The answer is dead simple-- to have it played in the concert hall.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ChamberNut on September 25, 2009, 07:33:36 AM
You obviously did not get my point.  The point is that you can't call it a ballet if there are no dancers.  Even if the suite and the ballet are the same music note for note, they still are different.  Get it?

The suite is composed and published to have it performed in the concert hall.  It doesn't matter if it's made shorter, or played practically the same as the ballet.  Why publish a suite if the ballet is short?  The answer is dead simple-- to have it played in the concert hall.

So when The Rite of Spring is played in concert (as it does all the time, but not necessarily as a ballet), it is just automatically called a suite?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on September 25, 2009, 07:56:15 AM
No, a suite is always music taken from the complete work.

It may in some cases (L'oiseau de feu, Prokofiev's Romeo & Juliet) also involved changes in scoring.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: DavidW on September 25, 2009, 08:11:51 AM
So when The Rite of Spring is played in concert (as it does all the time, but not necessarily as a ballet), it is just automatically called a suite?

That's obviously not what I said, and now you're just being an argumentative dick.  There is nothing necessarily provocative about a suite being as long as the original work.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on September 25, 2009, 08:13:07 AM
No inter-rodent fighting on the thread, please  0:)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on September 25, 2009, 08:17:05 AM
The suite from Pulcinella also involves assigning vocal lines to instruments, to be sure.  Myself, I like having both the original, and the suite.

I should agree that the "suite" of Petrushka is not value added in that way.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ChamberNut on September 25, 2009, 09:41:56 AM
That's obviously not what I said, and now you're just being an argumentative dick.

Not trying to be, honestly.  Just trying to understand it.  :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Franco on September 25, 2009, 10:36:34 AM
Not trying to be, honestly.  Just trying to understand it.  :)

It is easy to understand once you compare the suite with the uncut ballet music. Just listen to them back to back.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Catison on November 10, 2009, 06:07:43 PM
Anyone have a recommendation for the best Stravinsky biography for a first timer?  I love Stravinsky's music, but I have no knowledge of his life, and so it is hard for me to relate to his music.  I am thinking about checking out (or buying) a biography and going through all of his music.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Catison on November 12, 2009, 08:03:42 PM
It's in two volumes, which may disqualify it, but Steven Walsh's biography is comprehensive, it addresses the music, the personality and the times, and it is beautifully written. He judiciously says less than there is to say about Craft, which may be the only (probably necessary) shortcoming.

And may I second you comments about Sforzando.
'

I got the first volume from the library.  Looks very good.  I'll check back later!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Herman on November 13, 2009, 02:05:43 PM
Hi Brett. I have the two Walsh volumes, and I think that would be a little over the top at first. I also have the Stravinsky volume in the Master Musicians series, this one written by Paul Griffiths, and I'd recommend this one. It's not just a biography, but it discusses the compositions, too.

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=paul+griffiths&bi=0&bx=off&ds=30&sortby=17&sts=t&tn=stravinsky&x=0&y=0
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Catison on November 19, 2009, 08:28:53 AM
Hi Brett. I have the two Walsh volumes, and I think that would be a little over the top at first. I also have the Stravinsky volume in the Master Musicians series, this one written by Paul Griffiths, and I'd recommend this one. It's not just a biography, but it discusses the compositions, too.

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=paul+griffiths&bi=0&bx=off&ds=30&sortby=17&sts=t&tn=stravinsky&x=0&y=0

I would take you up on your suggestion Herman, if only I didn't enjoy the Walsh so much.  There may be a lot of detail, but it is the kind of detail I like.  I was once a Russophile, and learning about Sankt Peterburg life before the revolution is wonderful.  And I didn't realize this before, but Stravinsky was present in some of my favorite composers' lives.  He was with the Russian Romantics, with Prokofiev in Paris, and with Schoenberg in Hollywood.  So learning so much about Stravinsky's life puts these other composers in context.  I love the prose of the book, too.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on November 19, 2009, 09:10:34 AM
It really is a pleasure to read.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: MN Dave on November 19, 2009, 01:42:42 PM
Why do we sp r ea d out the letters in our user names?  :-\
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Herman on November 20, 2009, 03:18:53 AM
I would take you up on your suggestion Herman, if only I didn't enjoy the Walsh so much.  [...]  I love the prose of the book, too.

Oh, then by all means proceed.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Brahmsian on December 07, 2009, 10:30:05 AM
Took a break from 'the big box', and now went back to it yesterday and today.

New discoveries (first listens) are:

Disc 11 - Miniature Masterpieces  (Loved all of these)
Disc 10 - Concerto for Piano and Wind Instruments, Capriccio for Piano and Orchestra (loved these)
Disc 10 - (5) Movements for Piano and Orchestra (did not enjoy)

The more I'm diving into this box, the following is becoming glaringly clear:

I virtually love to bits and pieces all of the works of Stravinsky's pre-serialist late phase.   :)
I do not enjoy the later works from the so called serialist stage.   :(
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on December 07, 2009, 01:03:59 PM
The Concerto for Piano & Winds is particularly tasty.

And the Big Box is always good to turn back to, aye.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on December 07, 2009, 01:10:45 PM
I had some Stravinsky activity today, as well . . . from my first "load-up" onto my mp3 player, somehow several of the discs I first 'ripped' (what an unfortunate term) were marred by a loud glitch right at the end of each track.  I had re-loaded a number of these earlier, but I recently found (or, re-discovered) other music which it was necessary to re-load.  This included the  Jas O'Donnell/Westminster Cathedral Choir, City of London Sinfonia disc (on Hyperion) with the Symphony of Psalms, Mass, Canticum sacrum and the three motets.  Also, Wuorinen's Reliquary for Igor Stravinsky was similarly marred . . . and somehow (I guess that was early on, and I had no clear idea of capacity, so I was unnecessarily cautious) that was the only piece from the Knussen/London Sinfonietta disc I had loaded, so today I went ahead and loaded the whole enchilada.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Catison on December 07, 2009, 01:23:42 PM
I had some Stravinsky activity today, as well . . .

Me too.  Still reading and loving the biography.  I have been listening to some of the early works, including Op. 1 and Op. 3.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on December 07, 2009, 01:37:56 PM
Yes, ere long I shall want to re-read the Walsh!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Wanderer on December 07, 2009, 01:38:19 PM
Boxset alert! The following is due for release on 4-1-2010.  8)

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/4778730.jpg)

Boulez conducts Stravinsky

 

CD1 Chicago Symphony Orchestra

The Firebird

Fireworks

4 Studies

 

CD2 The Cleveland Orchestra

Pétrouchka

Le Sacre du printemps

 

CD3 The Cleveland Orchestra

Le Chant du Rossignol

L'Histoire du Soldat

Scherzo fantastique

Le Roi des étoiles

 

CD4 Berliner Philharmonic

Symphony of Psalms

Symphony in Three Movements

Symphonies of Wind Instruments

 

CD5 Ensemble Intercontemporain

Ebony Concerto

3 Pieces for Clarinet solo

Concertino for String Quartet

8 Instrumental Miniatures

Concerto "Dumbarton Oaks"

Elegy for Viola solo

Epitaphium

Double Canon for String Quartet

 

CD6 Ensemble Intercontemporain

Songs
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on December 07, 2009, 10:37:52 PM
Yes, ere long I shall want to re-read the Walsh!

ah, Georgia font. It looks like newsprint. is that what you were after (or, typewriter?)?

I've been studying fonts this year. Honestly, this font is a bit hard to read, which highlights the readability of whatever is the default font here,...mmm, lry me guess...

eras, or arial???

what font would stravinsky have liked?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: The new erato on December 07, 2009, 11:09:29 PM
Boxset alert! The following is due for release on 4-1-2010.  8)

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/4778730.jpg)

Boulez conducts Stravinsky

 
Isn't it strange how Boulez never came around to recording the late, (sometimes) serialist masterpieces of Stravinsky? This box is very tempting, but would be absolutely essential if it included works like Agon, Threni, Mass etc, etc.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 09, 2009, 09:25:22 AM
I asked him about this a number of years ago, and he told me that he would have certainly loved to record works from Stravinsky's 3rd period for Deutsche Grammophon but that it's a matter of business that he couldn't. Not much commerical potential in otherwords.

That's rather strange, given that Boulez has recorded plenty of Schoenberg, Berg, Webern and other such composers, and given that Stravinsky is a "name" composer.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Ugh on February 16, 2010, 11:21:10 PM
Took a break from 'the big box', and now went back to it yesterday and today.

New discoveries (first listens) are:

Disc 11 - Miniature Masterpieces  (Loved all of these)
Disc 10 - Concerto for Piano and Wind Instruments, Capriccio for Piano and Orchestra (loved these)
Disc 10 - (5) Movements for Piano and Orchestra (did not enjoy)

The more I'm diving into this box, the following is becoming glaringly clear:

I virtually love to bits and pieces all of the works of Stravinsky's pre-serialist late phase.   :)
I do not enjoy the later works from the so called serialist stage.   :(

Which miniatures were featured on disc 11?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on August 16, 2010, 02:49:18 PM
HELP!

I have spent all day listening to Late IS on YouTube, and, finding that I'm liking it a lot, am horrified to find a dismal (bear with me) selection of extant recordings.

The pieces in question would be:

Cantata

Canticum Sacrum

Threni*

Requiem Canticles



(and, to a lesser extent)

Variations "Aldous Huxley" (plenty of versions)

in Memoriam Dylan Thomas*

Introitus (TS Eliot)*

Elegy JFK



I know that the Mass/Noces and Mass/Noces/Cantata pairings are pretty common (any favs?), but the rest are just scattered all over the place, with Threni practically unavailable :o. This piece really impressed me.

The rest of this music all deserves to have at least three classic recordings a piece (and I mean all 8 pieces,...together!,...plus the Late Chamber Works!), but, as I'm checking, it's pffft.

Why hasn't anyone recorded Threni and the Requiem Canticles on DG or something, with,...or,....I mean, why not, at least, those 4 main works together? ??? It seems to make no sense.

There's a Philips disc (de Leeuw), a Koch disc, the Hyperion/Noces-Wood disc, the Knussen disc,...and,....what else?,...but that's really about it. And they just have 1-3 of the pieces per disc, usually with the rest of IS's choral works.

So,...what's up with this? :(
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on August 16, 2010, 04:05:08 PM
I asked him about this a number of years ago, and he told me that he would have certainly loved to record works from Stravinsky's 3rd period for Deutsche Grammophon but that it's a matter of business that he couldn't. Not much commerical potential in otherwords.

And that is the beef I have with the "Big 3" (Universal, EMI, Sony). They don't seem to ever cater to the hardcore classical fan, but that's why we have labels like BIS, Naxos, Hyperion, and Chandos. :D
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Franco on August 16, 2010, 04:06:36 PM

And that is the beef I have with the "Big 3" (Universal, EMI, Sony). They don't seem to ever cater to the hardcore classical fan, but that's why we have labels like BIS, Chandos, Hyperion, and Chandos. :D

Yes, and don't forget Chandos.
 :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on August 16, 2010, 04:11:28 PM
Yes, and don't forget Chandos.
 :)

Lol...whoops I meant to put Naxos instead of typing Chandos twice. I guess I just have this great label on my mind. :D
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Dax on August 17, 2010, 12:22:22 AM
Those interested in late stuff might find something to their interest at

http://highponytail.blogspot.com/search/label/Stravinsky
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: not edward on August 17, 2010, 04:32:13 AM
For the Cantata, I'd suggest Ancerl:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61KWFYCARGL._SS500_.jpg)

For Canticum sacrum and Requiem Canticles, Gielen hits the spot:

(http://img.amazon.ca/images/I/51jmkUJsoqL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I would love a more solid recommendation for Threni. I imagine Naxos can't be far away from rereleasing Craft's, but I'd love to hear a Boulez or Gielen recording of this one.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on August 17, 2010, 04:34:27 AM
There's a Philips disc (de Leeuw), a Koch disc, the Hyperion/Noces-Wood disc, the Knussen disc,...and,....what else?,...but that's really about it. And they just have 1-3 of the pieces per disc, usually with the rest of IS's choral works.

My favorite recordings of Свадебка (Les noces) are (in no particular order) Craft (must be reissued on Naxos, right?), the Hyperion/Wood disc you note (with the Voronezh Chamber Choir as core guests) and — I suspect this will cross with Edward's post ; ) — the Ančerl Gold disc.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on August 17, 2010, 04:44:06 AM
For the Cantata, I'd suggest Ancerl:

For Canticum sacrum and Requiem Canticles, Gielen hits the spot:

Yes, yes, yes! Amen to both of these suggestions. Especially the Gielen, which convinced me of the greatness of Requiem Canticles.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on August 17, 2010, 05:29:07 PM
Is it that you can't fit Canticum Sacrum, Threni, and the Requiem Canticles all on one disc? I guess the Naxos is the wait for Threni, then. :(

Haitink does the two last pieces, on some massive Box.

I'm still in shock that there's no "official" masterpiece recording for all three (like,...soooooomeone in the '70s,.....oh, nevermind ::)). Can you just hear the Karajan (or, whomever the classic would belong to)?



I have borrowed the Hyperion disc with Symphony of Psalms, Mass, and Cantata before. I'll see if the library still has it. But,...these Late Pieces are really something else! Stravinsky is one creepy old man! :-\
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Herman on August 17, 2010, 11:00:04 PM
Apart from the Firebird and the Sacre I think it's fair to say that Stravinsky is really out of it now. The number of recordings made, especially of his very unpopular serialist works, pretty much reflects the market. And with market I don't mean money but ears eager to hear.

Stravinsky used to be the top dog for a long time, and we're looking at the inevitable reaction now. And it remains to be seen whether his reputation will recover, or whether the more confessional DSCH type of music has triumphed.

It is useful to remember that a lot of Stravinsky music is getting performed not in the concert hall or studio, but in ballet theatres all over the world on a pretty frequent basis. I may have said this before, but I have heard one or two really awful concert performances of Agon, with world famous conductors, and they just couldn't get it right (in the limited rehearsal time world-famous conductors have, per definition), whereas various good ballet orchestras can play this piece sleeping.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on August 18, 2010, 12:38:55 AM
Apart from the Firebird and the Sacre I think it's fair to say that Stravinsky is really out of it now. The number of recordings made, especially of his very unpopular serialist works, pretty much reflects the market. And with market I don't mean money but ears eager to hear.

Stravinsky used to be the top dog for a long time, and we're looking at the inevitable reaction now. And it remains to be seen whether his reputation will recover, or whether the more confessional DSCH type of music has triumphed.

There was a thread around here a year or so back that basically expressed this view - that Stravinsky had become a classic but in a very narrow sense, with his reputation based on a mere handful of works.

On the other hand, it's not just the early ballets that get played; some other stuff, like Symphony of Psalms and Symphony in Three Movements, do get played fairly often. But those late works have been neglected ever since they were new - so maybe not much has changed after all.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on August 18, 2010, 11:26:28 AM
or whether the more confessional DSCH type of music has triumphed.

Great point.



I guess just hearing, what I thought was (and I thought I wasn't going to find any more) an outright Hidden Super Masterpiece in Threni, and then seeing  it's history of neglect, especially in the all encompassing '80s (as far as recording goes), makes me really have to go back to the shed and rethink a few things. Not even Harmonia Mundi? No.

Threni is brand new music to me, and, I guess I just ASSumed :-[,...haha I thought it sounded like perfected Webern.

I just find it really odd, but, then, perhaps they all just forgot, and "they";re only getting around to Late Stravinsky now. However, a nice box of it, a la the Chailly/Varese set,....now!, that would be nice!

SALONEN! :o

One Stop Shopping, that's me!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Brewski on August 18, 2010, 11:32:22 AM
Just FYI, there's a very fine Threni (or seems to be, since I've not heard others) in this box set of Haitink live recordings:

http://www.amazon.com/Live-Radio-Recordings-14-CD-Boxed/dp/B00000K0P8/ref=sr_1_18?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1282163416&sr=1-18

--Bruce
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on August 19, 2010, 04:43:43 PM
Just listened again to Craft's Threni on YouTube. Der flugelhorn is really nice and fruity, and... what are those bass stabs?,...is it the contrabass?,... it has a growl almost like a brass instrument.

This piece is just really awesome sounding, IMHO!,... that Stravinskian rhythmic swagger,... like Marlon Brando as a Satanic Priest! :o
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on November 16, 2010, 09:16:55 AM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519uT1kpXuL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Conductors frequently get the balance wrong between soloist and orchestra in this work, which is why it often fails in the concert hall. In Mutter's fresh and invigorating performance, the balance sounds just right (easier to achieve in the studio) and both soloist and orchestra exude enjoyment.

I would be curious to know what performances of the VC are you comparing?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Leon on November 16, 2010, 09:25:56 AM
Apart from the Firebird and the Sacre I think it's fair to say that Stravinsky is really out of it now.

Not around my house.

 :)

Among the composers of the 20th+ century - his is the music that I listen to the most, but the Stravinsky I listen to the least are those works you mentioned.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on November 16, 2010, 09:43:44 AM
There was a thread around here a year or so back that basically expressed this view - that Stravinsky had become a classic but in a very narrow sense, with his reputation based on a mere handful of works.

On the other hand, it's not just the early ballets that get played; some other stuff, like Symphony of Psalms and Symphony in Three Movements, do get played fairly often. But those late works have been neglected ever since they were new - so maybe not much has changed after all.

Italics mine. And how often need they be presented, not to be out of it?
 
The Symphony of Psalms has been done with the BSO two seasons recently (IIRC); Oedipus Rex is on for January;  in recent seasons both the 1911 and 1947 versions of Petrushka have rung out in Symphony Hall (in principle aligning with Herman's comment, though he omitted it in between L'oiseau de feu and Le sacre); I've heard the Symphonies of wind instruments in Jordan Hall.  It seems to me that Stravinsky's status as a Classic means, partly, that there needn't be fervent championship of the music.
 
The late works will suffer from two fronts, meseems.  They're rather too thorny for practically any symphony orchestra season;  but they're already accorded canonical status, so they probably won't get much purchase among avowedly new-music outfits, either.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on November 16, 2010, 09:56:43 AM
I've heard many throughout the years ... and it's this one that I found the most striking & enjoyable overall, in fact ... everything on the disc is wonderful.

Yes, the whole disc is good, but I bought it for the Dutilleux performance, which I believe this disc is the premiere recording of this work. I really wish Dutilleux composed more, but he is such a perfectionist.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Scarpia on November 16, 2010, 11:45:54 AM
The late works will suffer from two fronts, meseems.  They're rather too thorny for practically any symphony orchestra season;  but they're already accorded canonical status, so they probably won't get much purchase among avowedly new-music outfits, either.

Well, late Stravinsky gets no love here either.  The planned discussion of Agon is still a non-starter, after a year of postponement.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on November 16, 2010, 11:48:15 AM
Well, late Stravinsky gets no love here either.  The planned discussion of Agon is still a non-starter, after a year of postponement.

My fault, largely. October proved woolier than I had expected, and November has followed suit.  I decided that I am waiting until I have as much leisure as will allow me to locate my score, before volunteering to take that thread back up.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Scarpia on November 16, 2010, 11:58:55 AM
My fault, largely. October proved woolier than I had expected, and November has followed suit.  I decided that I am waiting until I have as much leisure as will allow me to locate my score, before volunteering to take that thread back up.

Ok well, I listened to the piece last week.  Based on my reaction, I'm expecting it will get it's next turn in the player sometime in autumn 2018.   :P
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on February 13, 2011, 06:17:56 PM
HELP!

I have spent all day listening to Late IS on YouTube, and, finding that I'm liking it a lot, am horrified to find a dismal (bear with me) selection of extant recordings.

The pieces in question would be:

Cantata

Canticum Sacrum

Threni*

Requiem Canticles



(and, to a lesser extent)

Variations "Aldous Huxley" (plenty of versions)

in Memoriam Dylan Thomas*

Introitus (TS Eliot)*

Elegy JFK



I know that the Mass/Noces and Mass/Noces/Cantata pairings are pretty common (any favs?), but the rest are just scattered all over the place, with Threni practically unavailable :o. This piece really impressed me.

The rest of this music all deserves to have at least three classic recordings a piece (and I mean all 8 pieces,...together!,...plus the Late Chamber Works!), but, as I'm checking, it's pffft.

Why hasn't anyone recorded Threni and the Requiem Canticles on DG or something, with,...or,....I mean, why not, at least, those 4 main works together? ??? It seems to make no sense.

There's a Philips disc (de Leeuw), a Koch disc, the Hyperion/Noces-Wood disc, the Knussen disc,...and,....what else?,...but that's really about it. And they just have 1-3 of the pieces per disc, usually with the rest of IS's choral works.

So,...what's up with this? :(

I just ordered the 2cd set of 'Sacred Works' on Sony. Where was this when I was whining? Anyhow, it has ALL the works one could want,... and I got it pretty cheap (11GBP). Wow, that just popped out of nowhere (1991??). How did I miss that that? Anyhow, this and the Mustonen/Van Kuelen set should do me. Can't wait to listen to Threni.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: lescamil on February 13, 2011, 09:05:36 PM
Enjoying some live radio broatcast bootlegs of ..
  • Abraham & Isaac (perf. David Wilson Johnson, Radio Kamerokest, Philippe Herreweghe, Collegium Vocale)
  • Danses Concertantes (perf. Radio Kamer Orkest, Peter Eotvos)
  • Memorian Dylan Thomas (perf. Alesky Grigorev, ASKO Ensemble, Oliver Knussen)
  • Symphonies for Wind Instruments (perf. Radio Filharmonisch Orkest, Peter Eotvos)
  • Symphony In 3 Movements (perf. Orchestra of the Mariinski Theatre St. Petersburg, Valery Gergiev)

And some more ..
  • Movements (perf. Sviatoslav Richter, Ensemble InterContemporain, Pierre Boulez)
  • Mass & Choral Variationen (perf. ASKO/Schoenberg Ensemble, Reinbert de Leeuw,
    Nederlands Kamerkoor, Capella Amsterdam, Daniel Reuss)
  • Movements (perf. Nicolas Hodges, ASKO/Schoenberg Ensemble, Oliver Knussen)
  • Monumentum pro Gesualdo (perf. Radio Kamer Orkest, Peter Eotvos)

Let me guess, you got these from Dime a Dozen? I might check some of them out.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on March 01, 2011, 12:19:45 PM
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/af/e1/07ddc060ada05d87bfe89110.L.jpg)

WORKS FOR PIANO & ORCHESTRA


Actually just listening to this cd!

I just fell into a Stravinsky oasis, and have been listening almost exclusively to IS. Continued...
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on March 01, 2011, 12:35:38 PM
I just ordered the 2cd set of 'Sacred Works' on Sony. Where was this when I was whining? Anyhow, it has ALL the works one could want,... and I got it pretty cheap (11GBP). Wow, that just popped out of nowhere (1991??). How did I miss that that? Anyhow, this and the Mustonen/Van Kuelen set should do me. Can't wait to listen to Threni.

Just got the 'Sacred Works' 2cd/Sony, which has everything except the Requiem Canticles. Having been filtered through Xenakis, IS now sounds so natural to me, especially in Canticum Sacrum and Threni. Threni, especially, is deliciously cold and chilly and spare, reminding me a little of Xenakis's Medea in its ancient sound. There are some slightly freaky sounding low ostinatos that give this music a strange fruitiness I find compellingly perverse.

I also have the 2cd/DoubleDecca which contains Ashkenazy's survey of Chamber Music. I like the very rare Septet, which has the same medieval charm as the Cantata. Then we have the 1'30" Epitaphium, Webernesque in the extreme. And I'm also a fan of the Concerto for Two Pianos (must hear the Sonata for same).

Rounding out the trifles is 'Stravinsky in America' by MTT/RCA, which, apparently, contains not the most high energy Agon. I am truly becoming interested in that Gielen disc!


All this reminded me of my very favorite 'last note' in music: the last string chord at the end of Symphony in C, right after all the wind (ing) down. Ahh,... that very last chord, especially the way it hovers in the IS/CBS version (the regular, typical blue cd),... makes me feel such feelings! Anyone concur?


So, I'm on a real IS kick here, ask me a question, haha!! ;)

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on March 01, 2011, 04:27:11 PM
Hardly anything seems to me more musically natural, than falling in with Stravinsky for an extended listen!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on March 02, 2011, 08:25:01 PM
Hardly anything seems to me more musically natural, than falling in with Stravinsky for an extended listen!

I know how you feel, Karl because I feel the same way. I can listen to Stravinsky at any time of the day. His music never bores me or makes my mind wander. He, like two of my other absolute favorite composers, Ravel and Bartok, keeps me on my toes. And like Ravel and Bartok, Stravinsky was so remarkably consistent with his music.

I'm making my way through the set on Naxos with Robert Craft. Gorgeous playing and top-notch conducting from one of the closest people to Stravinsky in his later period.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on March 02, 2011, 09:13:11 PM
By the way, just out of curiosity, does anyone know what the instrument is in the beginning of the ballet Agon which sounds like some kind of synthesized instrument (which I know it's not, it just sounds like one)? Do you guys know what I'm talking about?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on March 02, 2011, 09:17:52 PM
Took a break from 'the big box', and now went back to it yesterday and today.

New discoveries (first listens) are:

Disc 11 - Miniature Masterpieces  (Loved all of these)
Disc 10 - Concerto for Piano and Wind Instruments, Capriccio for Piano and Orchestra (loved these)
Disc 10 - (5) Movements for Piano and Orchestra (did not enjoy)

The more I'm diving into this box, the following is becoming glaringly clear:

I virtually love to bits and pieces all of the works of Stravinsky's pre-serialist late phase.   :)
I do not enjoy the later works from the so called serialist stage.   :(

Stravinsky's later works take some time to warm to, but if one is persistent, then they reveal their beauty in time.

By the way, I love that "Miniature Masterpieces" disc from the big Sony Stravinsky set (the whole box set is extremely good and a good bargain to boot). I particularly loved Greeting Prelude. It's only a minute long, but within that minute there is such exuberance and joyfulness on display.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on March 02, 2011, 09:48:50 PM
By the way, Karl. I love your new username and more importantly your avatar.  8)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: lescamil on March 02, 2011, 10:42:11 PM
By the way, just out of curiosity, does anyone know what the instrument is in the beginning of the ballet Agon which sounds like some kind of synthesized instrument (which I know it's not, it just sounds like one)? Do you guys know what I'm talking about?

Which one? The instrumentation of Agon is pretty much a standard orchestra, with the addition of a mandolin (probably what you are thinking of), which is coupled with the harp at the beginning.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on March 02, 2011, 10:45:12 PM
Which one? The instrumentation of Agon is pretty much a standard orchestra, with the addition of a mandolin (probably what you are thinking of), which is coupled with the harp at the beginning.

That might be it, mandolin in conjunction with the harp. What a beautiful sound! Almost synthetic.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on March 03, 2011, 12:02:53 PM
Let's get some more discussion about the great Stravinsky going on here:

What are your favorite lesser known works?

Here are mine (off the top of my mind):

Chant du rossignol
Apollon Musagete
Agon
Orpheus
Jeu de cartes
The Fairy's Kiss
Scenes de Ballet
Scherzo a la Russe
Ebony Concerto
Dumbarton Oaks
Four Studies
Capriccio for Piano and Orchestra
Violin Concerto
(hardly ever discussed as a major concerti but it is to my ears)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Brahmsian on March 03, 2011, 12:08:21 PM
Let's get some more discussion about the great Stravinsky going on here:

What are your favorite lesser known works?

Here are mine (off the top of my mind):

Chant du rossignol
Apollon Musagete
Agon
Orpheus
Jeu de cartes
The Fairy's Kiss
Scenes de Ballet
Scherzo a la Russe
Ebony Concerto
Dumbarton Oaks
Four Studies
Capriccio for Piano and Orchestra
Violin Concerto
(hardly ever discussed as a major concerti but it is to my ears)

Apollon Musagete
Agon
Orpheus
Jeu de cartes
Ebony Concerto
Dumbarton Oaks
Violin Concerto

These are definitely some of my favorites, along with Petruskha, ROS and all the symphonies.  I'm not as keen on some of the vocal works.  For sure, Abraham & Isaac is my least favorite of all Stravinsky compositions.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on March 03, 2011, 12:30:01 PM
Apollon Musagete
Agon
Orpheus
Jeu de cartes
Ebony Concerto
Dumbarton Oaks
Violin Concerto

These are definitely some of my favorites, along with Petruskha, ROS and all the symphonies.  I'm not as keen on some of the vocal works.  For sure, Abraham & Isaac is my least favorite of all Stravinsky compositions.

I'm not too fond of Stravinsky's more vocal oriented music either, but I don't mind the occasional vocal part like in the ballet Pulcinella for example.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on March 03, 2011, 12:32:52 PM
Oh, but the Mass and the Symphony of Psalms, lads! (To my mind, the Canticum sacrum, too, for that matter . . . .)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Brahmsian on March 03, 2011, 12:36:58 PM
Symphony of Psalms

Oh, absolutely, Karl.  :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Scarpia on March 03, 2011, 12:40:44 PM
Oh, absolutely, Karl.  :)

Eh, I've yet to hear a recording that made much of an impression.  The latest was Shaw, in truly wonderful Telarc sound.  So drab and colorless compared to the miraculous Poulenc Gloria it shared the program with.



That's not to say I won't.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on March 03, 2011, 02:06:29 PM
Oh, but the Mass and the Symphony of Psalms, lads! (To my mind, the Canticum sacrum, too, for that matter . . . .)

I love Symphony of Psalms, what Stravinskian wouldn't?  ???
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on March 03, 2011, 02:15:29 PM
Eh, I've yet to hear a recording that made much of an impression.  The latest was Shaw, in truly wonderful Telarc sound.  So drab and colorless compared to the miraculous Poulenc Gloria it shared the program with.



That's not to say I won't.

Nobody can convince you about a piece of music, but the only Symphony of Psalms that made a direct impact to me was Stravinsky's own performance of it:


Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: not edward on March 03, 2011, 07:47:38 PM
Have you heard Ancerl's Symphony of Psalms? Of the recordings I've heard, it'd be my choice for a canonical recording. (I love the Markevitch one, but I think it's very much an acquired taste.)

Of the lesser-known works: Orpheus--Hans Werner Henze rated it as his single favourite Stravinsky work, and I find this view easy to understand--and the Concerto for Two Pianos stick out massively; I'm also a big admirer of many of the late works (perhaps Requiem Canticles above all). In addition, I wouldn't want to omit the Mass, a masterpiece of musical restraint.

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on March 03, 2011, 08:11:49 PM
Have you heard Ancerl's Symphony of Psalms? Of the recordings I've heard, it'd be my choice for a canonical recording. (I love the Markevitch one, but I think it's very much an acquired taste.)

Of the lesser-known works: Orpheus--Hans Werner Henze rated it as his single favourite Stravinsky work, and I find this view easy to understand--and the Concerto for Two Pianos stick out massively; I'm also a big admirer of many of the late works (perhaps Requiem Canticles above all). In addition, I wouldn't want to omit the Mass, a masterpiece of musical restraint.

I have not heard the Ancerl recording, but, then again, I don't have much interest in acquiring another Symphony of Psalms performance. Orpheus is a fantastic ballet. I love it. Have you heard Craft's recording of the three Greek ballets? It truly is outstanding. Craft, along with Boulez, Salonen, and Abbado, are really my Stravinsky conductors of choice. For me, it doesn't get much better than their recordings. Stravinsky made some good recordings as conductor, but not outstanding. The only performance that's still a favorite is his Symphony of Psalms. I prefer technical brilliance in Stravinsky. I like clean cut rhythms and articulation. I also like clarity in this music.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on March 03, 2011, 09:20:38 PM
Elegy
Dylan Thomas In Memorium
Canticum Sacrum
Threni

Movements

Epitaphium
Double Canon

Variations

Elegy for JFK
Introitus
Requiem Canticles


...you know, all the cheerful pieces! ;)...
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: not edward on March 04, 2011, 12:22:16 PM
This is a good one for the songs ..
Agreed. I don't think it's available as a single disc any more, unfortunately, but it has been reissued as part of the DG Boulez conducts Stravinsky box,
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: mjwal on March 04, 2011, 01:38:35 PM
I totally agree with Edward about the Ancerl recording of the Symphony of Psalms - as Ancerl's recordings of Les Noces, Le sacre du printemps, Petrushka and Édipe Roi (for which he employs the brilliant actor Jean Desailly to speak Cocteau's narration, which is why I give it the French name) are also at or very near the top of my list, I give him my accolade as best all-round Stravinsky conductor of the 20th century.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on March 04, 2011, 07:25:15 PM
And Naxos has another Craft/Stravinsky volume coming out next month.

Do you have a link to the recording, James? I would like to find out what's on it. Thanks.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on March 05, 2011, 09:37:45 PM
http://www.naxos.com/SharedFiles/pdf/rear/8.557532r.pdf#
http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.557532

Requiem Canticles with the Duo Concertante? I can't waaait to see what a mishmash their last Vol. will be, hee hee!! ;) ;D
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on March 06, 2011, 06:32:33 AM
Requiem Canticles with the Duo Concertante? I can't waaait to see what a mishmash their last Vol. will be, hee hee!! ;) ;D

Like many Stravinsky discs, there is a broad range of his career represented.  You pick those two pieces out to make a joke (and, sure) but of course there are also the Sonata for two pianos and Abraham & Isaac.

Curiously, this is one reissue which does not overlap much (possibly not at all) with the Craft recordings I've already got . . . .

 
I wonder if the Requiem Canticles and Tchaikovsky Pas de deux are from that long-ago initial two-CD set that Craft did?  That's one of a number of recordings which I fetched in back when I was in upstate New York, but which passed out of my life.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on March 14, 2011, 06:06:46 PM
Has anybody watched this documentary?



I bought it tonight and I've heard it was excellent. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on March 14, 2011, 06:44:13 PM
I'm not as keen on some of the vocal works.  For sure, Abraham & Isaac is my least favorite of all Stravinsky compositions.

I thoroughly enjoyed the Mass today and really studied it. It has vocals, but it's so damn infectious. Pulcinella, obviously a well-acknowledged Neoclassical masterwork, in its complete form has vocals as well, which I think are lovely.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on March 15, 2011, 03:06:21 AM
The Mass is marvellous. And I'll repeat: Canticum sacrum, especially for us Agon enthusiasts.

I hadn't heard of the Tony Palmer film, MI . . . nor am I certain that I've seen any of his work other than 200 Motels 
; )
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on March 15, 2011, 10:46:43 AM
The Mass is marvellous. And I'll repeat: Canticum sacrum, especially for us Agon enthusiasts.

I hadn't heard of the Tony Palmer film, MI . . . nor am I certain that I've seen any of his work other than 200 Motels 
; )

I wrote a review on Amazon about Palmer's RVW film which I was hugely disappointed in:

"O Thou Transcendent: The Life of Ralph Vaughan Williams" has to be one of the worst documentaries I've seen in a long time. From start to finish, there was nothing of remote substance found. The interview segments made absolutely no sense and didn't even pertain to the subject matter about 99% of the time. The editing, or lack of, was terrible as it was completely cut-up and very erratic. The entire documentary didn't follow any kind of timeline at all. The stories told from the various people being interviewed made absolutely no sense and were more of a personal nature and not much in the way of Vaughan Williams' actual history. The images involved throughout were very distasteful, which I'm sure this has been mentioned, but there were several images that were totally uncalled for like the images of a dead child and not to mention stacks of dead bodies, which are out-of-place in this type of documentary, which is supposed to be about Vaughan Williams and not trying to provoke controversy.

That said, I can't possibly think of one good thing to say about this pathetic excuse for a documentary other than I wish I had the 2+ hours back from watching this film. If you are expecting a documentary that follows a timeline and that deals with Vaughan Williams' life in a competent way, then do not watch this. I would have been ashamed to have even released this garbage for people to see. It surely doesn't do any justice to this man's beautiful music, if anything, it makes a mockery of it.


But, however, I did enjoy his documentary on John Adams immensely. I suppose he's very much hit or miss in his films. I hope his Stravinsky documentary is as good as people have said it is.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on March 15, 2011, 04:50:58 PM
For those who haven't heard the Hyperion discs with Volkov and the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra, don't hesitate to pick these up at some point. Fantastic performances. Volkov really understands this music and his feel for the rhythmic complexities is nothing short of amazing. As I've mentioned on two other threads, I hope he continues this series on Hyperion. Of course, we have enough recordings of Rite of Spring, Petrushka, and Firebird, but I think it was highly inventive for Volkov to start the series off with three seldom discussed ballets, but incredible ballets Jeu de cartes, Orpheus, and Agon. Ultimately though, no matter what he chooses to do, Volkov is up against some stiff competition (Abbado, Craft, Salonen, Gielen, Chailly, Stravinsky himself, etc.), but while it's easy to defend our favorites, we must give this young fellow a chance to shine and we must also thank him and Hyperion for bringing us this music.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on March 17, 2011, 04:54:26 AM
Hey, at 22 pages, I should call this thread respectfully populated ; )

Day before yesterday I saw an old friend I hadn’t seen (let alone played together with) in quite a while.  He is back to playing, and playing more diligently than he had in a while . . . so we are talking of reviving a trio, and specifically of having a proper lash at the trio suite from L’histoire.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on March 17, 2011, 07:25:51 AM
The Works for Violin & Piano

Isabelle van Keulen & Olli Mustonen (Philips; 1989)


I just got this old Philips set, which came in one of those Philips 'boxes' that look so so,... expensive, haha (oh, and it was on Amazon,... sheesh!). This purchase is like my Cornerstone, the one that connects a whole lot of strands in my Library.

So, I've never really 'heard' (or actually actively listened to) any of these pieces (though I admit to prejudging it as sounding like 'typical' IS neo-classicism), but I put on the Duo Concertant (expecting to be bored), and wow!, that opening is really really unique. That is some of the most shocking expectation defying music I've heard, considering what I thought it was going to sound like. I wasn't able to listen too much last night (quiet time), so I will be diving in during the drive today.

I suppose I was actually more interested in Mustonen than Stravinsky. I used to have his Alkan/DSCH Decca cd, and remember that he has a reputation for a very individual technique, so, I thought he might be interesting in this repertoire. He seems to play having a 'bubble' around every note, very articulated. This came through in spades in the opening of the DC.

Van Keulen, on the other hands, seems very delicate here. The balance seems pretty equal, though the piano tends to 'wrap' the violin, like how flowers are wrapped in light paper. This balance seems to highlight the timbral differences very much, which makes me wonder if this is on purpose, since, apparently, IS thought that the combination of string & piano was not to his liking.

So, I know there are now quite a few recordings of this music (including Perlman, and a new one with Ades on piano, from Hyperion). Is anyone familiar with the Philips; or, what are your thoughts on the music?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on March 17, 2011, 08:09:56 PM
The Works for Violin & Piano

Isabelle van Keulen & Olli Mustonen (Philips; 1989)


I just got this old Philips set, which came in one of those Philips 'boxes' that look so so,... expensive, haha (oh, and it was on Amazon,... sheesh!). This purchase is like my Cornerstone, the one that connects a whole lot of strands in my Library.

So, I've never really 'heard' (or actually actively listened to) any of these pieces (though I admit to prejudging it as sounding like 'typical' IS neo-classicism), but I put on the Duo Concertant (expecting to be bored), and wow!, that opening is really really unique. That is some of the most shocking expectation defying music I've heard, considering what I thought it was going to sound like. I wasn't able to listen too much last night (quiet time), so I will be diving in during the drive today.

I suppose I was actually more interested in Mustonen than Stravinsky. I used to have his Alkan/DSCH Decca cd, and remember that he has a reputation for a very individual technique, so, I thought he might be interesting in this repertoire. He seems to play having a 'bubble' around every note, very articulated. This came through in spades in the opening of the DC.

Van Keulen, on the other hands, seems very delicate here. The balance seems pretty equal, though the piano tends to 'wrap' the violin, like how flowers are wrapped in light paper. This balance seems to highlight the timbral differences very much, which makes me wonder if this is on purpose, since, apparently, IS thought that the combination of string & piano was not to his liking.

So, I know there are now quite a few recordings of this music (including Perlman, and a new one with Ades on piano, from Hyperion). Is anyone familiar with the Philips; or, what are your thoughts on the music?

No one?

I listened to the rest of the set, and find it endlessly interesting, in a very white, neo-classic way. Again, the opening of the Duo Concertant, with the piano imitating a... balailaka?... is so interesting sounding. The two instruments couldn't clash more, yet compel so.

Can anyone vouch for Van Keulen? Her intonation sounds ok, but some of this music sounds fiendishly difficult, and I was compelled to listen very closely a few times (the solo Elegie is a study in double stops); but, I have come away thinking she's playing the music. There is something slightly disconcerting about the proceedings, and I'm starting to think it's Igor's spiky sense of humor.

Ultimately, I did find in this music the detachment I was seeking. It is certainly some of the cleanest music I've heard, spotless and white. The liner notes call it 'superior salon music', and I would agree, if you leave your preconceived notions, this music will surprise you. I especially enjoyed the Firebird and Nightingale arrangements.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on March 18, 2011, 04:01:03 AM
No one?

Well . . . honestly, there is a long list of Stravinsky works which made an immediate, and highly specific impression, so that I should never mistake any other piece in the literature for them. But the Duo concertant was not one of them ; )

Sérieusement, your post I took as a prompt to revisit the Duo, but yesterday being St Patrick’s Day in Boston, I have not yet acted upon that prompt.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on March 18, 2011, 04:18:53 AM
Can anyone vouch for Van Keulen? Her intonation sounds ok, but some of this music sounds fiendishly difficult, and I was compelled to listen very closely a few times (the solo Elegie is a study in double stops)

Do you know, I think I had not ever heard the Élégie until the Boulez DG box arrived this past month.  It is exquisite!  Though, of course, I fully expected it so to be.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on March 19, 2011, 10:00:12 AM
Well . . . honestly, there is a long list of Stravinsky works which made an immediate, and highly specific impression, so that I should never mistake any other piece in the literature for them. But the Duo concertant was not one of them ; )

Sérieusement, your post I took as a prompt to revisit the Duo, but yesterday being St Patrick’s Day in Boston, I have not yet acted upon that prompt.

It's just that opening, where Igor makes the piano sound like, I suppose, a balailaka, with those fast repeated notes. Not THEE most strange thing ever, but, I think it carries the same kind of cheeky surprise that the simplistic patterns of the 3 Pieces for SQ deliver (or the almost random figurations of A Soldier's Tale?). Maybe?

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on March 19, 2011, 10:02:58 AM
And, I've been listening to this van Keulen/Mustonen set for a couple of days now. It's quite infectious, and ever so slightly Modern sounding,... I just can't get over how 'clean' the music sounds,... very Metrosexual, haha!!

The opening of the Firebird is very nicely transcribed.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Scarpia on March 19, 2011, 10:12:58 AM
Listened to Jeu de cartes today, in two recordings, one by Neeme Jarvi with the Concertgebouw (1992) the other Karajan with the Philharmonia (1952).  An interesting piece, and interesting contrast between the two recordings.  Jarvi brings off the grand introductions to each deal best, but the glory of this piece is in the fascinating passage work that make up the guts of the three "deals" and Karajan here is far superior, in my opinion.  Part of it is that Karajan's recording is much better recorded than Jarvi's, despite the fact that Chandos had a 40 year advantage in technology.  The woodwinds sound so much more distant and remote in the Jarvi recording.  Another irritation is that Jarvi tends to have the brass play in very harsh staccato outbursts where you don't hear the note, just a percussive "blat."  Karajan would not allow such a thing.   0:)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on March 19, 2011, 03:12:09 PM
I haven't heard the Philips set .. but your mentions of it here has got me interested in checking it out.
I have the Hyperion set (Marwood/Ades) and dig it, tho I haven't listened to it as much as I'd like to.

Just curious as to how you think Marwood plays. As I said, van Keulen seems to play very delicately, and I wonder if this is the music, or not. I don't know Dushkin's style, so I can't tell if he had a more,...mmm,... masculine style. I really feel like I need to hear others now to compare. And the madness of rabbit holes, haha!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on March 19, 2011, 05:49:58 PM
Listened to Jeu de cartes today, in two recordings, one by Neeme Jarvi with the Concertgebouw (1992) the other Karajan with the Philharmonia (1952).  An interesting piece, and interesting contrast between the two recordings.  Jarvi brings off the grand introductions to each deal best, but the glory of this piece is in the fascinating passage work that make up the guts of the three "deals" and Karajan here is far superior, in my opinion.  Part of it is that Karajan's recording is much better recorded than Jarvi's, despite the fact that Chandos had a 40 year advantage in technology.  The woodwinds sound so much more distant and remote in the Jarvi recording.  Another irritation is that Jarvi tends to have the brass play in very harsh staccato outbursts where you don't hear the note, just a percussive "blat."  Karajan would not allow such a thing.   0:)

Karajan had no feel for Stravinsky's idiom. He pretty much was clueless about Bartok as well.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on March 19, 2011, 09:40:29 PM



Stravinsky arranged L'Histoire du soldat as a suite, which seems the best way to hear the music outside of the theatre. Using seven virtuoso players plucked from the ranks of the Cleveland Orchestra, Boulez produces a crisp and vigorous account in which Stravinsky's rhythmic playfulness is always to the fore.

A truly fantastic recording in every sense. This recording also contains one of my favorite Stravinsky scores Le Chant du Rossignol. To those Stravinsky fans who haven't heard this work: go listen to it now! Truly magical.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on March 20, 2011, 06:11:11 AM
Just popped in the Octet. I must have got this confused with the Symphonies for Wind Instruments because I certainly don't hear anything familiar. I guess that opening of SWI has just got stuck in my head. So, I consider the Octet a 'new' piece for me, haha! Nothing out of the ordinary here, though there is a lot of nice wind writing.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on March 20, 2011, 06:52:48 AM
What are everybody's thoughts on Dumbarton Oaks? Do you think it is one of Stravinsky's masterpieces?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Brahmsian on March 20, 2011, 07:12:56 AM
What are everybody's thoughts on Dumbarton Oaks? Do you think it is one of Stravinsky's masterpieces?

I'll make this easy.   YES!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Scarpia on March 20, 2011, 09:32:05 AM
Listened to Jeu de cartes today, in two recordings, one by Neeme Jarvi with the Concertgebouw (1992) the other Karajan with the Philharmonia (1952).  An interesting piece, and interesting contrast between the two recordings.  Jarvi brings off the grand introductions to each deal best, but the glory of this piece is in the fascinating passage work that make up the guts of the three "deals" and Karajan here is far superior, in my opinion.  Part of it is that Karajan's recording is much better recorded than Jarvi's, despite the fact that Chandos had a 40 year advantage in technology.  The woodwinds sound so much more distant and remote in the Jarvi recording.  Another irritation is that Jarvi tends to have the brass play in very harsh staccato outbursts where you don't hear the note, just a percussive "blat."  Karajan would not allow such a thing.   0:)

Listened to these two recordings of Jeu de cartes again.  This is a case where having two contrasting performances is a big benefit because there are lots of details that are more apparent in one than the other, and having both gives the opportunity to listen for the effect you noticed in one recording while listening to the other.

I've grown to like Jarvi's recording more on the second go around, but Karajan's old Philharmonia still has a unique appeal.  This is a very playful score (with ironic quotes of Beethoven's "fate" theme in chirping oboes, and recreation of Rossini style Italianate drama) and Karajan brings an intensity to it that seems to invoke the seriousness of a child at play.  Jarvi's characterization of the music is not as focused, creates the impression of a pagent.  Both are a pleasure to listen to.  The next time I listen to the piece it will be Abbado's LSO recording (more dramatic than either of these, as I recall).
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on March 20, 2011, 03:15:31 PM
Just popped in the Octet. I must have got this confused with the Symphonies for Wind Instruments because I certainly don't hear anything familiar. I guess that opening of SWI has just got stuck in my head. So, I consider the Octet a 'new' piece for me, haha! Nothing out of the ordinary here, though there is a lot of nice wind writing.

Aye. While it is not a ‘game-changer’ like the Symphonies d’instruments à vent, the Octuor is still a lovely piece.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on March 22, 2011, 06:44:05 AM
Going through the 'American' years...

Concerto in D: this one has the same 'hardness' as the Symphony in C, the same seriousness (same as the Capriccio also).

Quatre Etudes: these are orchestrations of the 3 Pieces for SQ. The second one, particularly (marked Eccentrique) has a delicious strangeness to it (the others,... meh).

Four Norwegian Moods: the most Milhaud/Martinu/Poulenc, etc.,... sounding of all. IMO nothing to see here.

Danses Concertantes: typical, spiky Neo-Classicism for the Los Angeles crowd. Me likey.

'Dumbarton Oaks' Concerto: haven't listened yet...

Ode: not yet...

Scenes de ballet: up next...


I'm not sure his 'Hollywood' phase is my favorite.


If the Octet is the first NeoC work, what was the last?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on March 22, 2011, 07:04:19 AM
If the Octet is the first NeoC work, what was the last?

Agon, which was transitional into the serial phase.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on March 22, 2011, 10:21:30 AM
I have been watching this...



I have not finished watching it yet, but I have been watching about 30-40 minutes a night and tonight I will finish it. This is a very entertaining film. As typical with the Palmer films I've seen, it doesn't really follow any kind of logic, but this Stravinsky documentary is, more importantly, driven by the composer's own narration, which makes it a little bit more cohesive. It does contain some fantastic footage of the composer and some rare interviews that were quite amusing to watch. I'm past the part where he moved to Hollywood. One interesting thing so far that I thought was curiously omitted was Stravinsky's own thoughts on why he chose to look back to the Baroque and Classical Eras for inspiration. It seems that his Neoclassical period is getting the short end of the stick so far, which I'm very disappointed in. Hopefully, things will pick up as Pulcinella, Mass, and Symphony in Three Movements has been discussed.

Speaking of Stravinsky documentaries, has anyone seen this one?


Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on March 22, 2011, 11:33:59 AM
Yes, I have that one and like it a lot.  It only covers Symphonies of Wind Instruments, but is very informative and if you are like me and love this work, the film is well worth the investment in time and money.  The companion film on Schoenberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra is, indeed, very fine as well.

Thanks for the feedback, Leon! I'll probably be purchasing this in a minute. :D
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Scarpia on March 22, 2011, 09:57:34 PM
Had time to listen through Orpheus again and have a better appreciation of the unique sound-world of this music.  After the boisterous, extroverted use of the orchestra in Jeu de cartes, the sparse, reticent orchestration of Orpheus requires some serious renormalization of expectations.  The notes to the recording mention that the forces employed in Jeu de cartes and Orpheus are almost exactly the same, but Orpheus is more reserved in its use of the orchestra, and except for a few passages the texture is reminiscent of chamber music.  The most striking thing about the music is the use of neo-baroque textures during the most expressive moments of the piece, notably the writing for two oboes and harp depicting Orpheus in the underworld, and the slowly unfolding counterpoint depicting the return and loss of Eurydice.
 
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on March 23, 2011, 06:22:29 PM
A beautiful piece .. and that's the cool thing about Stravinsky when you're exploring him, you just never know what to expect .. he was such a musical chameleon but yet never lost his very distinctive musical identity.

Yes, he was one of most consistent composers of the 20th Century. Truly remarkable in every sense. I would like to get to the point where I know every nook and cranny of his output. I'm slowly getting there.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: lescamil on March 30, 2011, 10:25:20 PM
For the pianists out there: don't miss Guido Agosti's arrangement of three movements from The Firebird. In my opinion, this is a better work than Stravinsky's own Three Movements from Petrushka, which gets far more fame than it deserves, in my opinion. I have only heard the Martin Jones recording of it, but his performance is riddled with mistakes and wrong notes, so look out for another recording if you can. Martin Jones is one of those pianists who just seems to play the entire repertoires of given composers just to show that it can be done. He has a long history of bland, clinical performances. Still, he has his value, for he has recorded lots of works that people have never paid much attention to.

EDIT: Here is a great performance of the three movements as arranged by Guido Agosti:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx1f-DUj2Mg&feature=player_embedded
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 31, 2011, 04:34:55 AM
Had time to listen through Orpheus again and have a better appreciation of the unique sound-world of this music.  After the boisterous, extroverted use of the orchestra in Jeu de cartes, the sparse, reticent orchestration of Orpheus requires some serious renormalization of expectations.  The notes to the recording mention that the forces employed in Jeu de cartes and Orpheus are almost exactly the same, but Orpheus is more reserved in its use of the orchestra, and except for a few passages the texture is reminiscent of chamber music.  The most striking thing about the music is the use of neo-baroque textures during the most expressive moments of the piece, notably the writing for two oboes and harp depicting Orpheus in the underworld, and the slowly unfolding counterpoint depicting the return and loss of Eurydice.


Orpheus is one of Stravinsky's most beautiful pieces, and the true successor of another favourite of mine: Apollon Musagète.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on March 31, 2011, 06:38:37 AM

Orpheus is one of Stravinsky's most beautiful pieces, and the true successor of another favourite of mine: Apollon Musagète.

I agree. Orpheus, especially the opening is Stravinsky at his most delicate.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on March 31, 2011, 08:35:52 AM
I agree. Orpheus, especially the opening is Stravinsky at his most delicate.

Yes, that opening descent...
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on April 14, 2011, 09:41:46 AM
Just listened to Le Sacre for the first time in decades (Rattle/EMI). Wow,... is this the perfect piece?? Truly primal, and Xenakian.

That bassoon sounds like a tuba, no? I don't know, I'm just so impressed,... I can hear everything in this recording. I have to go drive, and will listen again...

I feel like a little girl jumping up and down, haha!

After listening to so much other IS recently, this music really did take me by surprise. wow wow wow

wow wow wow...


just in case,... WOW!!!!!!! ;D
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on April 14, 2011, 09:47:01 AM
Cool, snypsss. Nice to know that someone else appreciates Rattle/CBSO in this dy-no-mite piece!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: The new erato on April 14, 2011, 11:36:59 AM
Cool, snypsss. Nice to know that someone else appreciates Rattle/CBSO in this dy-no-mite piece!
Is that dy-nah-mite as in the the famous Hum?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on April 14, 2011, 07:46:02 PM
Is that dy-nah-mite as in the the famous Hum?

Jimmy Walker from Good Times TV show. Dy-no-mite! ;)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on June 27, 2011, 05:55:07 PM
Stravinsky Conducts Stravinsky

3 Symphonies


I just welcomed this cd back into my life. This has to be the perfect Stravinsky disc, no? I just didn't feel the need to try anyone else out, not even in amazon samples. How can I trust anyone else, or any other recording, to deliver that last string chord in the 'C' Symphony?

The Last String Chord. Listen to the Spirit hovering.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Brahmsian on June 28, 2011, 06:01:19 AM
Stravinsky Conducts Stravinsky

3 Symphonies


I just welcomed this cd back into my life. This has to be the perfect Stravinsky disc, no? I just didn't feel the need to try anyone else out, not even in amazon samples. How can I trust anyone else, or any other recording, to deliver that last string chord in the 'C' Symphony?

The Last String Chord. Listen to the Spirit hovering.

I agree, this CD is perfect.  Love the bassoon intro work to the final movement in Symphony in C.  Another great (but not perfect) recording of these 3 symphonies is Rattle/BP
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky: "sounds like opera"
Post by: snyprrr on July 14, 2011, 08:52:44 PM
Oedipus Rex (Salonen/Sony)

I had never heard this Opera-Oratorio (that just looks funny), but built this thing up in my imagination after reading James's thrilling review of Salonen/Sony (which I then found cheap). The 'chilling' and 'icy' words used to describe this piece (by others also on Amazon) built in my mind a very particular sound, taking all the more austere and 'serious' sounding elements of his '30s style. I was expecting a fairly icy and austere thing,... I don't know who to relate it to but maybe Dallapiccola?,... slightly sinister,...maybe a little like Orff without a motor?


Anyhow, the cd arrived, and, in anticipation of getting the right time to play it, settled on drive time. Well, I did actually brace myself in case of emergency, and, lo and behold, it came in spades. I must say now that I didn't make it past, say, track 10, because, I had reached "sounds like opera" mode and went into shutdown. I was stunned by the seeming cheerfulness of the music, with those slightly strange choral outbursts. But, it was the total opposite of what I thooought it was going to be, and, sincerely, I like my imagination better (except that hearing the Music obliterated detail). I'm sure it was just 'expectation', but, you have to admit that this sounds pretty much

I just didn't like it at all. No excuses,... it sounded like opera to me,... with some French guy speaking every now and then,... and a chorus. I don't remember the music except it was cheerfully warm,... even if the second half gets close to what I'd imagined, I don't see how, unless there is a purposeful change of tone from the beginning, how my impression could possibly change.

I am at a loss. Where is the piece in my head? It's obviously not something I've heard,... it was supposed to be THIS piece, so, what can I relate it to? I saw long held single lines, austere and pseudo Greek sounding (or, 'Important' sounding),... maybe something not like Varese, but something of that import (I guess I was expecting some drums). But, the music I heard didn't sound foreboding of tragedy,... does it? After coming off all the other BIG examples of his Neo-Class style, this seemed to me not to sound anything like any of it (sure, a credit, but I still didn't like it).

I just cannot meet the Challenge of this kind of stuff. It gives me what I call 'David Letterman face'. I'm sorry guys. 8)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Bogey on September 25, 2011, 08:06:21 AM
A beautiful sighting earlier on our local classical station:

Igor Stravinsky: Mass
 RIAS Chamber Choir / Daniel Reuss
 musikFabrik
 Harmonia Mundi 801913
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: karlhenning on September 25, 2011, 08:10:48 AM
Nice, Bill!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 11, 2011, 05:46:14 AM
I think that adding the Tanglewood Festival Chorus was a non-Stravinsky touch, but still:

http://www.youtube.com/v/UNAmF6vQTZk
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 13, 2011, 06:49:41 AM
It ain't right when this thread is so utterly neglected.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: jowcol on December 14, 2011, 03:40:53 AM
DUMBARTON OAKS
Written at a time of many crises in Stravinsky's life, Dumbarton Oaks is a reminder of his assertion that music "expresses nothing but itself". The work met with a mixed reaction on its premiere, being deplored by those who thought serious composers should be in the vanguard of a continous musical revolution. The opening movement is reminiscent of JS Bach's "Brandenburg" Concertos. The modest instrumental forces and the regularity of the metre all hark back to the Baroque practice. The second movement has a sly, jazz insouciance. It features flute and violin as solo instruments - plus the clarinet, an instrument that was unknown in Baroque times. The third movement is a movement with a pronounced "finale", returning to the Baroque model. Yet Stravinsky abandons counterpoint in favour of his characteristic games of deft chordal interplay, shifting accents and sprightly syncopation.

(http://ec5.images-amazon.com/images/I/41fcar95tDL._AA300_.jpg)


Both of these bring off the neoclassical lines within the bastard harmonic environment beautifully.

The last movement of Dumbarton Oaks is one of my very favorite passages by Stravinsky.   
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky: "sounds like opera"
Post by: jowcol on December 14, 2011, 03:42:48 AM
Oedipus Rex (Salonen/Sony)

I had never heard this Opera-Oratorio (that just looks funny), but built this thing up in my imagination after reading James's thrilling review of Salonen/Sony (which I then found cheap). The 'chilling' and 'icy' words used to describe this piece (by others also on Amazon) built in my mind a very particular sound, taking all the more austere and 'serious' sounding elements of his '30s style. I was expecting a fairly icy and austere thing,... I don't know who to relate it to but maybe Dallapiccola?,... slightly sinister,...maybe a little like Orff without a motor?


Anyhow, the cd arrived, and, in anticipation of getting the right time to play it, settled on drive time. Well, I did actually brace myself in case of emergency, and, lo and behold, it came in spades. I must say now that I didn't make it past, say, track 10, because, I had reached "sounds like opera" mode and went into shutdown. I was stunned by the seeming cheerfulness of the music, with those slightly strange choral outbursts. But, it was the total opposite of what I thooought it was going to be, and, sincerely, I like my imagination better (except that hearing the Music obliterated detail). I'm sure it was just 'expectation', but, you have to admit that this sounds pretty much

I just didn't like it at all. No excuses,... it sounded like opera to me,... with some French guy speaking every now and then,... and a chorus. I don't remember the music except it was cheerfully warm,... even if the second half gets close to what I'd imagined, I don't see how, unless there is a purposeful change of tone from the beginning, how my impression could possibly change.

I am at a loss. Where is the piece in my head? It's obviously not something I've heard,... it was supposed to be THIS piece, so, what can I relate it to? I saw long held single lines, austere and pseudo Greek sounding (or, 'Important' sounding),... maybe something not like Varese, but something of that import (I guess I was expecting some drums). But, the music I heard didn't sound foreboding of tragedy,... does it? After coming off all the other BIG examples of his Neo-Class style, this seemed to me not to sound anything like any of it (sure, a credit, but I still didn't like it).

I just cannot meet the Challenge of this kind of stuff. It gives me what I call 'David Letterman face'. I'm sorry guys. 8)


I must confess that I had about the same reaction to Oedipus Rex and never went back.   Are you famliar with Les Noces?  A few years earlier, and it's one of my absolute faves by Igor.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Lisztianwagner on June 25, 2012, 07:25:11 AM
Did Stravinsky quote Joseph Lanner for the waltz section of Petrushka? The woodwinds and the harp sound playing Steyrische Tänze and Die Schönbrunner! ;D
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 25, 2012, 07:40:47 AM
Did Stravinsky quote Joseph Lanner for the waltz section of Petrushka? The woodwinds and the harp sound playing Steyrische Tänze and Die Schönbrunner! ;D

Yes; good ear, Ilaria!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Lisztianwagner on June 25, 2012, 07:50:33 AM
Yes; good ear, Ilaria!

How wonderful! :) That's quite interesting, amongs many more famous waltzes, he just chose those ones.......
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 30, 2012, 04:44:19 AM
Strange to report (in that it's taken me so long, I mean): I have at last loaded all of The Big Stravinsky Box onto my player!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 24, 2012, 12:10:29 PM
(* crickets *)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: DavidW on September 24, 2012, 12:12:11 PM
What is the big Stravinsky box?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: North Star on September 24, 2012, 12:13:24 PM
What is the big Stravinsky box?
:o
*faints on the floor*

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 24, 2012, 12:14:04 PM
22-CD reissue of the composer's own recordings (although Bob Craft conducts some of the later works under the composer's supervision).
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 24, 2012, 12:27:32 PM
:o
*faints on the floor*



It's superb!  :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on September 24, 2012, 12:30:48 PM
What is the big Stravinsky box?

An essential acquisition for the Stravinsky fan. :D
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 03, 2012, 10:46:55 AM
And now, for something completely different . . . .

http://www.youtube.com/v/cP_njOZAeWI
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on October 03, 2012, 12:47:20 PM
And now, for something completely different . . . .

http://www.youtube.com/v/cP_njOZAeWI

Ah, the missing Zappa realization! ;)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Scarpia on October 11, 2012, 06:40:53 PM
Other 'realizations' ,, anyone see any of this stuff?

The first one is indispensable.  I have a soft spot for the Blechman cartoon.  I hated that other 'Rite.'  The rest, I don't know.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: petrarch on February 10, 2013, 03:31:02 PM
Strange to report (in that it's taken me so long, I mean): I have at last loaded all of The Big Stravinsky Box onto my player!

Half a decade later, I am finally digging through the box--reading this thread from the beginning and reading about the various works has finally prompted me to put this on and listen. I am also tempted to finally grab both of Walsh's tomes from the shelf...
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: petrarch on February 17, 2013, 02:14:08 PM
Let's see... It has been so long since I heard many of these works that it feels like I am coming to them for the first time. I have started with surveying the vocal works in the big box: Pribaoutki and the Russian Peasant Songs are astonishing; I also liked the Three Japanese Lyrics (I have two different versions by Boulez elsewhere that I need to compare to this); Le Rossignol was quite good, especially that haunting tenor melody. Unfortunately, I couldn't stand The Rake's Progress. Didn't care much for Mavra.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 17, 2013, 02:32:47 PM
I was a while warming to The Rake's Progress.

But, somehow, Mavra was a hit with me, straight off.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: petrarch on February 17, 2013, 02:47:27 PM
But, somehow, Mavra was a hit with me, straight off.

I did feel I need to hear Mavra a few more times. Same with Perséphone.

Like The Rake, Oedipus Rex did not captivate me.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: petrarch on February 17, 2013, 03:38:06 PM
And a few random ones from earlier today:

Will certainly be listening again to
Ode
The Flood - liked the pointillism, but not the voices
Monumentum pro Gesualdo - very interesting, though I didn't like the orchestral textures in the 1st movement (the 3rd is better, and the 2nd is quite good)
Scherzo à la russe
Le Renard

Those that didn't do much for me (yet?)
Scherzo fantastique
Fireworks
Les Noces (perhaps a better performance will be more pleasant; this reminded me of Orff very much)
Title: Re: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 17, 2013, 03:43:40 PM
Les Noces (perhaps a better performance will be more pleasant; this reminded me of Orff very much)

There are reasons ; ) Of course, the Stravinsky predates the Orff.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: dyn on February 17, 2013, 04:29:55 PM
i don't care for Orff at all, but Les Noces is sheer genius. i prefer it to the Rite.

apart from that my favourite Stravinsky is Requiem Canticles, Movements, Threni & c. the late stuff. i suppose it's not to everyone's taste.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 17, 2013, 04:34:12 PM
Cool, another Threni fan!
Title: Re: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: petrarch on February 17, 2013, 06:25:14 PM
There are reasons ; ) Of course, the Stravinsky predates the Orff.

Indeed; I am aware of that...

i don't care for Orff at all, but Les Noces is sheer genius. i prefer it to the Rite.

apart from that my favourite Stravinsky is Requiem Canticles, Movements, Threni & c. the late stuff. i suppose it's not to everyone's taste.

Well, the Rite is one of those works of which I love every single note, and Carmina Burana is another, since I was 8 or 9... My trouble with Les Noces is the singing. I'll comment on late Stravinsky when I get to it. It is the first time I am listening to his oeuvre in a systematic fashion.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 17, 2013, 06:29:32 PM
... My trouble with Les Noces is the singing...

Ah! This makes sense. I could see the "composer's own" document unwittingly getting in the way, here.

I'd suggest the Craft recording. Among its many virtues is the agreeable timbre of the choral soprani, particularly.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: dyn on February 17, 2013, 06:33:19 PM
yes, recordings of Les Noces with a high quality of singing seem hard to come by. the Naxos version is also rather subpar for instance.

Indeed; I am aware of that...

Well, the Rite is one of those works of which I love every single note, and Carmina Burana is another, since I was 8 or 9... My trouble with Les Noces is the singing. I'll comment on late Stravinsky when I get to it. It is the first time I am listening to his oeuvre in a systematic fashion.
don't get me wrong, i've always appreciated the Rite, but for whatever reason it's not desert island music—i don't find myself going back to it very often. i suppose it's much more compelling in live performance than on recording though.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 17, 2013, 06:43:34 PM
Neither here nor there, just tallying in... Le sacre is an old, sentimental favorite of mine.

Carry on : )
Title: Re: Re: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: petrarch on February 17, 2013, 06:45:54 PM
Ah! This makes sense. I could see the "composer's own" document unwittingly getting in the way, here.

I'd suggest the Craft recording. Among its many virtues is the agreeable timbre of the choral soprani, particularly.

Thanks, I'll make a note of your recommendation.

don't get me wrong, i've always appreciated the Rite, but for whatever reason it's not desert island music—i don't find myself going back to it very often. i suppose it's much more compelling in live performance than on recording though.

Indeed it is; I attended a Boulez/LSO concert of it almost two decades ago (along with Le chant du rossignol). A truly memorable experience that cemented my unconditional love for it.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Cato on February 17, 2013, 06:47:59 PM
Concerning Les Noces: many decades ago, I had a record of it revolving on the stereo, and my mother insisted that "somebody should put those poor women out of their misery!"

I suppose the Russian chorus was particularly shrill on that record.   0:)

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 17, 2013, 06:59:24 PM
My inaugural listen to Les noces was not a success. I admit it struck me as shrill then, too.

But now, I love it.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on March 28, 2013, 07:09:56 PM
A new Le sacred du printemps and Petrouchka coming out...yay or nay?



I like Gatti's conducting but I already own 41 Le sacre performances and there's no telling how many Petrouchka performances I own.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Cato on May 05, 2013, 09:59:01 AM
A recent staging of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring by the Columbus Symphony and Ballet Met Columbus sold out all performances!

This can only be considered a pop in the snout to those "death of classical music" types!   0:)

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 12, 2013, 04:23:27 AM
Singing the Bogoroditse Devo (in Church Slavonic).
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: jlaurson on May 24, 2013, 11:18:57 PM

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-nP06lu7gRbA/UZ-tRxYzx3I/AAAAAAAAGcs/pNM3dHXul5g/s1600/Les_noces_Stravinsky_laurson_600.png)
Whitsun Salzburg: Stravinsky for Dummies

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/05/whitsun-salzburg-stravinsky-for-dummies.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/05/whitsun-salzburg-stravinsky-for-dummies.html)

The topic this year was “OPFER/SACRIFICE”, with thematic and linguistic links which had to
include the two most famous ‘sacrifices’ in music: Bach’s
Musical Offering and of course
Le sacre du printemps. It was the latter I went to see—a Stravinsky triple bill of Les
noces (“The Wedding”), Sacre, and L'oiseau de feu (“The Firebird”), with Gergiev
at the helm of the Mariinsky troupe… both orchestra and ballet.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 29, 2013, 05:58:57 PM
On the centenary of the première of Le sacre, I am listening to the piece during a southern New England thunderstorm. No, I don't believe that it gets any better than this.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Concord on June 02, 2013, 05:53:57 PM
On the occasion of the 100th anniversary of the Rite, I wrote this column, which hasd yetr to appear in the paper:

The following column will appear in the Norristown Times Herald on Sunday, June 2:


The day music changed: The 100th anniversary of ‘The Rite of Spring’

By Joe Barron


One hundred years ago this week, on May 29, 1913, a riot took place in Paris. The trigger was not the price of bread, or the arms race in Europe, or the constitutional right of citizens to carry concealed weapons.
 

It was the premiere of a ballet.


The hissing began at the Théâtre des Champs-Elysées during the first few notes of Igor Stravinsky’s “Rite of Spring,” as the bassoon softly wailed a Russian folk melody in an unnaturally high register.

“Then, when the curtain opened, a group of knock-kneed and long-braided Lolitas jumping up and down, the storm broke,” the composer recalled almost 50 years later. “Cries of ‘ta geule’ (shut up) came from behind me. I left the hall in a rage.”
 

Stravinsky’s driving score and Vaslav Nijinsky’s spastic choreography (which even Stravinsky didn’t like) turned everything patrons thought they knew about ballet on its head. Fistfights broke out, and, as Stephen Walsh says in his biography of the composer, “if the music was heard at all, it can only have been as a component of the general uproar.”
 

Controversy has continued for a century about just what the audience was reacting to, and what that reaction says about the relationship of the artist to his or her public. Certainly, Stravinsky meant no offense. If he had, he would have been delighted by the scandal, but, he continued in his memoir, “I have never again been that angry. The music was so familiar to me, I loved it, and I could not understand why people who had not yet heard it wanted to protest in advance.”
 

What is equally certain is that the music, if not the dancing, became the touchstone for everything that followed. It appears at the top of everyone’s list of most important works of the 20th century, at least everyone who still cares about that sort of thing. Nothing like it had ever been heard before — and this at a time when a lot of other people were writing the sort of stuff that had never been heard before — and nothing exactly like it has been heard since. Even Stravinsky himself couldn’t top it.

Within 10 years, he moved on to cooler, more elegant forms of expression, and none of the music he wrote afterward, great as much of it is, is performed nearly as frequently today.
 

In a point of local pride, the U.S. premiere took place in 1922, when Leopold Stokowski led the Philadelphia Orchestra in a concert performance. Ever since, American musicians have spoken of their first experience with the piece as a revelation: Men as different in age and outlook as Elliott Carter and Frank Zappa have said that hearing it made them want to become composers. Kids in conservatories are still imitating it, if only unconsciously.
 

For me, appreciation came only gradually. I first heard the “Rite” in high school, and I did not like it for a long time. In retrospect, I understand my aversion had less to do with the music than with my recording of it. It was Stravinsky’s own, a performance he conducted in his late 70s. It’s not bad, but it lacks fire, and it lags badly toward the end.
 

Then, one glorious evening listening to the radio, I heard the recording by George Solti and the Chicago Symphony, and I said, “OK, I get it now.” It remains my favorite version, and it is the one I listened to on the anniversary of the premiere.
 

This music has become a part of me, as it has for so many others, and friends have heard bits of it escape from me at odd moments, either as humming or as whistling. It’s an embarrassment, but embarrassment is the price I’m willing to pay for having my life enriched in such a profound way.
 

A lot has happened in the past hundred years to make a riot over a piece of music seem quaint. Yet the undiminished vitality of “The Rite of Spring” keeps a piece of that remote world alive like nothing else, and reminds us of the power of art to throw the world off its axis. The experience of that first night must have been overwhelming. Had I been there, I would have been frightened, too.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 03, 2013, 01:10:44 AM
Joe, didn't know it was you. Welcome back!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Concord on June 03, 2013, 08:10:23 AM
Thanks, Karl, but I thought it was obvious. The Ives handle and and a bunch of pro-Carter posts -- who else would do that? Certainly not Sean.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 03, 2013, 08:22:11 AM
Oh, I admit, it was inattentive of me.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Geo Dude on August 01, 2013, 04:34:11 AM
Any recommendations for a good recording of his violin concerto?  A recording that pairs it with another of the works from his neo-classical period would be particularly nice.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 01, 2013, 04:38:16 AM
I'm not sure what its current availability is, and it is paired not with more Stravinsky but with the Shostakovich Tenth (so my suggestion is in quite serious non-compliance) . . . but if pressed, I am apt to prefer Schniederhan playing, with Ančerl at the podium.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Brewski on August 01, 2013, 04:53:40 AM
After browsing through available recordings of the Violin Concerto, I realize there are a great many I have not heard, so I would be interested in responses as well. (I have Perlman and Hahn.)

Meanwhile, I seem to have missed this lovely post below - sounds like a great evening (or whenever it occurred).

On the centenary of the première of Le sacre, I am listening to the piece during a southern New England thunderstorm. No, I don't believe that it gets any better than this.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 01, 2013, 10:41:56 AM
Any recommendations for a good recording of his violin concerto?  A recording that pairs it with another of the works from his neo-classical period would be particularly nice.

I like either Mullova or Chung. Neither are coupled with other Stravinsky works but seeing as these are bread-n-butter works for soloists that might be difficult.




 



Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Geo Dude on August 01, 2013, 04:30:47 PM
Thanks for the tips.  I'm planning an order and was hoping to avoid having to pick up two discs to hear another neo-classical period work in the interest of keeping cheap and all.;)  I've heard Hahn's performance and like it and may try that.  Or I may try Mullova because I'm curious about the Bartok Concerto.

Sooo....I'll give in and ask:  What single disc (or double disc issue if it's reasonably priced) of Stravinsky's neo-classical era work would you folks recommend that's not paired with the concerto?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on August 01, 2013, 05:50:51 PM
Any recommendations for a good recording of his violin concerto?  A recording that pairs it with another of the works from his neo-classical period would be particularly nice.

Definitely can't go wrong with Chung/Previn, Hahn/Marriner, or Lin/Salonen. These are my top recommendations.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on August 01, 2013, 09:03:33 PM
Definitely can't go wrong with Chung/Previn, Hahn/Marriner, or Lin/Salonen. These are my top recommendations.

What about Mutter (with Lutoslawski)?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 02, 2013, 12:59:43 AM
Two of my favorites from that middle period are Pulcinella (complete, with the singers, i.e.) and Le baiser de la fée (again, I prefer it complete):

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on August 02, 2013, 04:54:11 PM
What about Mutter (with Lutoslawski)?

Very good performance indeed. I can't list every performance I've heard of Stravinsky's VC but rather I narrowed down my choices to two favorites, which I did above.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Geo Dude on August 12, 2013, 05:04:39 PM
Some of you have probably already seen this, but here is an excellent interview with Stravinsky. (http://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/focus/stravinsky-on-stravinsky)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: DaveF on September 17, 2013, 12:39:45 PM
This is rather good:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtrCvdH_Alk

Only a shame there wasn't a bit of variation in camera angles.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: xochitl on September 17, 2013, 08:13:38 PM
my, thats is pretty amazing
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: amw on September 25, 2013, 06:09:01 AM



Old post, but I love this recording, incidentally. I think the Bartók concerto was what I listened to first; it starts with one of the great solo entrances in the literature, two bars of quiet B major chords from the harp, lower strings entering with the bass line sotto voce, then the violin coming in fortissimo with a wide-ranging and passionate melody, bringing with it an opening-out of orchestral scope with individual notes being picked up and sustained by horns and clarinets. Within about two seconds of Mullova's entrance I was like "damn, this girl is good"; my admiration continued to increase over the course of the piece, including some of the most beautiful sounds I'd ever heard from the A string and some quite tasteful quarter tones where appropriate. Part of that was Bartók—it was my first exposure to the piece, and Bartók is pretty much the greatest composer ever—but the Stravinsky, which I'd previously thought of as pleasant, superficial and mannered, made me much more receptive to the piece. Mullova delivers a coolly mysterious Aria I, a poignant Aria II and a Capriccio whose frivolous neoclassicisms start to seem almost desperate, as though it's teetering on the edge of something much more menacing that's just pulled back at the last minute (foretastes of the Symphony in C and Jeu de cartes). I'd recommend it over the only other recording of the Stravinsky I have which is Mutter's (although that may be worth it for hardcore Dutilleux fans).

Anyway... Stravinsky. Most of the "neoclassical period" stuff I like is somewhat atypical—the Symphony already mentioned, Orpheus (which I've been fortunate enough to see live at the NYCB), some of The Rake's Progress. I suppose in general the Craft recordings are the ones to have but I've not heard enough of the alternatives.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 25, 2013, 07:16:40 AM
Orpheus is a beauty, no question.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on September 26, 2013, 05:31:06 AM
Are Stravinsky and Prokofiev jewish?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Pessoa on December 19, 2013, 04:55:41 PM
I haven't read the thread and probably has already been discussed but: what good recordings of The Soldier's Tale without a narrator are out there?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 20, 2013, 06:22:54 AM
I like Craft & al.

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: North Star on December 20, 2013, 07:19:54 AM
I have no quarrel with the Boulez & Cleveland (DGG).
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 20, 2013, 07:55:37 AM
I have no quarrel with the Boulez & Cleveland (DGG).

Nor I . . . I need to spin that one again.

Boston Chamber Players



That two-fer does look nice . . . though seeing Jn Gielgud there, I suspect he's narrating, and the query was sans récitateur :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 20, 2013, 08:25:45 AM
Oh, I am sure I should like it . . . in fact, I have an idea that that may have been the first L'histoire ever I heard, myself . . . .
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 20, 2013, 11:30:09 AM
The trio version is good fun, although perhaps half the score is not arranged.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Pessoa on December 20, 2013, 01:47:04 PM
Thanks, I see there is plenty to choose from and  available.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: OrchestralNut on December 21, 2013, 05:41:02 PM
For DBM:

Stravinsky

Danses Concertantes


Robert Craft
Columbia Chamber Orchestra

Sony Classical


Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on December 21, 2013, 09:37:14 PM
One of my favorite Stravinsky ballets, besides Petrouchka and Le sacre du printemps, is Apollo. For me, the last movement (Apotheosis) is one of Stravinsky's most compelling utterances. I don't enjoy much of Stravinsky's music these days, but I can at least acknowledge the man's brilliance and Apollo is, indeed, a brilliant ballet.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: OrchestralNut on December 22, 2013, 06:11:06 AM
One of my favorite Stravinsky ballets, besides Petrouchka and Le sacre du printemps, is Apollo. For me, the last movement (Apotheosis) is one of Stravinsky's most compelling utterances. I don't enjoy much of Stravinsky's music these days, but I can at least acknowledge the man's brilliance and Apollo is, indeed, a brilliant ballet.

A great one indeed, John.  One of favourites as well.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: OrchestralNut on December 23, 2013, 01:38:27 PM
For DBM, this superb ballet!  :)

Stravinsky

Orpheus


Stravinsky
Chicago Symphony Orchestra

Sony Classical

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on December 23, 2013, 02:02:01 PM
What is "DBM"?

December Ballet Month
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: OrchestralNut on December 23, 2013, 03:57:06 PM
More DBM, these three great ballets!  :)

Stravinsky

Apollo
*Agon
**Jeu de Cartes


Stravinsky
Columbia Symphony Orchestra
*Los Angeles Festival Symphony Orchestra
**The Cleveland Orchestra

Sony Classical

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 23, 2013, 05:58:47 PM
Groovimondo, Ray!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: petrarch on December 31, 2013, 01:46:01 PM
Some more listening from The Box:
Very enjoyable Variations, though the recording has oodles of reverb! Capriccio for piano and orchestra is also quite interesting (no harmful tone rows in this one ;)). Very pleasant Danses concertantes (unmistakably Stravinsky... was that a reference to Good King Wenceslas in one of the variations?) and the miniatures in Suite No. 1.

Didn't care much for Suite No. 2, nor for the Basie and Dumbarton Oaks concerti. Same for the Sonatas for piano(s), the Serenade in A and the Concerto for 2 solo pianos. I listened to the Variations after these, and it felt like a cleansing of the ears :).
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 31, 2013, 03:29:47 PM
Sonically, the piano works are deficient, but are of historical interest (the Concerto per due pianoforti performed by the composer together with his son, Soulima, e.g.)

I think it was the DRD recording of the Concerto in D which sold me on that piece.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: petrarch on January 02, 2014, 01:06:15 PM
Spent a very agreeable time today with the Ebony Concerto and the Septet, two old acquaintances.

Some other pleasurable highlights, though to a lesser degree (clearly denoting it would be worthwhile to spend more time to decant and delight in them) were Preludium for Jazz Ensemble, Concertino for 12 instruments, Ragtime for 11 instruments, Tango, Pastorale and Symphonies of Wind Instruments.

Duo Concertant and Piano - Rag Music didn't particularly warm me up. The first left me with the impression that another, more modern, recording might make it quite appealing.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 02, 2014, 01:24:29 PM
Ragtime for 11 instruments and Tango are two favorites.  But, there is not much by Stravinsky that I do not enjoy (the early works do the least for me).

 :)

+ 1

Some other pleasurable highlights, though to a lesser degree (clearly denoting it would be worthwhile to spend more time to decant and delight in them) were Preludium for Jazz Ensemble, Concertino for 12 instruments, Ragtime for 11 instruments, Tango, Pastorale and Symphonies of Wind Instruments.

Thanks for mentioning the Preludium for Jazz Ensemble . . . it is slight enough, and I may only have listened to it once before, that I did not recall it, so your mention drove me to drop it into the playlist.  Fleeting, but very nice!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on January 02, 2014, 08:40:12 PM
I have the old Philips 2cd of Complete Violin Music with Olli Mustonen and Isabella van Kuelen(?). A very curious recording- I'd love to know if anyone else has heard it (have I asked this before?).
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Octave on January 02, 2014, 09:55:04 PM
I have the old Philips 2cd of Complete Violin Music with Olli Mustonen and Isabella van Kuelen(?). A very curious recording- I'd love to know if anyone else has heard it (have I asked this before?).

I'm interested in getting either the Keulen (reissue on Newton Classics) or the Marwood (Hyperion); if anyone knows both and finds any advantage in one or the other, that would be good to know. 
It looks like the Keulen/Mustonen includes the short Élégie (1944), not included (?) on the Marwood.

I notice that the Tango on Newton disc says "arr. Mustonen".  I wonder if the same arrangement was used on the later Hyperion recording?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: North Star on January 02, 2014, 11:26:42 PM
I'm interested in getting either the Keulen (reissue on Newton Classics) or the Marwood (Hyperion); if anyone knows both and finds any advantage in one or the other, that would be good to know. 
It looks like the Keulen/Mustonen includes the short Élégie (1944), not included (?) on the Marwood.

I notice that the Tango on Newton disc says "arr. Mustonen".  I wonder if the same arrangement was used on the later Hyperion recording?
Nope, it's by Samuel Dushkin (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/tw.asp?w=W12785&t=GBAJY0972325&al=CDA67723), with whom Stravinsky toured, and for whom he dedicated Duo Concertante and  Divertimento, and who also helped with the composition of the VC.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 03, 2014, 04:15:03 AM
Try the Hyperion release with Marwood & Adès.

The Hyperion 2CD set has the complete music for violin & piano for the price of 1 CD.

The 2010 Hyperion recording is the one to get.

Quote from: Beatrice
I wonder that you will still be talking, Signior: nobody marks you.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 12, 2014, 10:59:09 AM
I have finally gotten around to buying that Marwood/Ades set on Hyperion. I've heard nothing but great things about it and the audio samples via Hyperion's website sounded fantastic.

There's one thing about it once I enter into a Stravinsky phase, it's hard not to buy a few more recordings. :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 12, 2014, 11:25:11 AM
Stravinsky is so delightfully listenable!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 12, 2014, 11:27:52 AM
Stravinsky is so delightfully listenable!

Hear, hear! 8)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 12, 2014, 11:42:22 AM
That Norrington recording you just bought looked interesting; I'm always up for a Historie du soldat suite.

Yeah, I hope it's good. I'm not the greatest Norrington fan in the world, but he's always doing something different.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on February 12, 2014, 11:42:59 AM
That Norrington recording you just bought looked interesting; I'm always up for a Historie du soldat suite.

I'm chasing you round the Threads! A certain Xenakis string motif is lifted from 'Le Sacre'- the Introduction of the magis or something. Very staccato- four stabs moving.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 13, 2014, 06:15:03 AM
What do you Stravinskians think of The Nightingale? I believe it was written between The Firebird and Le sacre du printemps. I was just listening to Craft's recording of it last night and found it pretty magnificent.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 13, 2014, 06:34:01 AM
I love it, and that is a fine recording.  I saw you listening to that on the WAYLT thread, and I wondered that it was included in the Ballets box  :)
 
Saw a performance of it at the Mariinsky, terrific piece.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 13, 2014, 06:38:17 AM
I love it, and that is a fine recording.  I saw you listening to that on the WAYLT thread, and I wondered that it was included in the Ballets box  :)
 
Saw a performance of it at the Mariinsky, terrific piece.

It's a great work certainly. The Craft ballet box actually contains tons of extras because this wasn't a specially compiled box as, in true Naxos fashion, it contains the actual releases in jewel cases. The only thing that was done special for the set was the outer box that the jewel cases slide into. So I think the title of the box set is a bit misleading as it's much more than just ballets.

BTW, you're lucky to have seen the entire work live. I would love to experience some Stravinsky live particularly less-known works.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ritter on February 13, 2014, 06:42:11 AM
What do you Stravinskians think of The Nightingale? I believe it was written between The Firebird and Le sacre du printemps. I was just listening to Craft's recording of it last night and found it pretty magnificent.
I haven't  listened to it for ages, but it's never been one of my favourite Stravinsky scores (as is the case with Le  Chant du Rossignol derived from it, and that we talked about yesterday). The opera was started before The Firebird, and finished after Le Sacre. This is by now a cliche, but the stylistic incoherence is quite noticeable, making this a "hybrid" score, as far as the idiom is concerned. I might give it a new try tonight (the Boulez account on Erato -- I don't own the Craft).

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 13, 2014, 06:44:47 AM
I haven't  listened to it for ages, but it's never been one of my favourite Stravinsky scores (as is the case with Le  Chant du Rossignol derived from it, and that we talked about yesterday). The opera was started before The Firebird, and finished after Le Sacre. This is by now a cliche, but the stylistic incoherence is quite noticeable, making this a "hybrid" score, as far as the style is concerned. I might give it a new try tonight (the Boulez account on Erato -- I don't own the Craft).

Ah yes, thanks for the correction. I love this hybrid style, but I love all phases of Stravinsky. Is the Boulez performance on Erato the full opera?

Edit: Yep, Boulez recorded the full opera. Excellent! I just bought it:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Dp4EYeCcL.jpg)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ritter on February 13, 2014, 07:02:50 AM
Ah yes, thanks for the correction. I love this hybrid style, but I love all phases of Stravinsky. Is the Boulez performance on Erato the full opera?
Indeed. This was the original cover:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Dp4EYeCcL._SY300_.jpg)

He's also recorded the Chant, that I remember, with  Cleveland--but that you have  ;) --, the Orchestre National de France--also on Erato--, the NYPO--on Sony--, and most recently with the Lucerne Festival Academy. He clearly likes the piece  ;)

I too love all of Stravinsky's styles (well, perhaps, there are some pieces form the end of the neoclassical period that I find subpar -- even if it's Stravinsky), but I don't know what it is with the Nightingale that I  can't warm to it  :-[ :-\

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 13, 2014, 07:26:44 AM
Indeed. This was the original cover:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Dp4EYeCcL._SY300_.jpg)

He's also recorded the Chant, that I remember, with  Cleveland--but that you have  ;) --, the Orchestre National de France--also on Erato--, the NYPO--on Sony--, and most recently with the Lucerne Festival Academy. He clearly likes the piece  ;)

I too love all of Stravinsky's styles (well, perhaps, there are some pieces form the end of the neoclassical period that I find subpar -- even if it's Stravinsky), but I don't know what it is with the Nightingale that I  can't warm to it  :-[ :-\

Yep, I own all of Boulez's Le Chant de Rossignol performances. All of them were fine to my ears. I really don't know which one I prefer. What are some of your favorite Stravinsky works?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ritter on February 13, 2014, 07:34:44 AM
Yep, I own all of Boulez's Le Chant de Rossignol performances. All of them were fine to my ears. I really don't know which one I prefer. What are some of your favorite Stravinsky works?
Many, many...off the top of my head:

- Firebird
- Petrushka
- Sacre
- Agon
- Canticum Sacrum
- Dumbarton Oaks Concerto
- Variations for orchestra, Aldous Huxley in memoriam
- Les Noces
- Scherzo à la Russe
- Requiem Canticles
..and many more  :)

Perhaps it's easier to list those I don't like that much  ;) : Apollo, The Rake's Progress (I find it always bores me to tears--except a couple of brilliant moments--even after seeing it fully staged--Auden libretto and all  ::) ), the Nightingale, the Cantata, Ode, Four Norwegian moods...
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 13, 2014, 07:39:59 AM
Many, many...off the top of my head:

- Firebird
- Petrushka
- Sacre
- Agon
- Canticum Sacrum
- Dumbarton Oaks Concerto
- Variations for orchestra, Aldous Huxley in memoriam
- Les Noces
- Scherzo à la Russe
- Requiem Canticles
..and many more  :)

Perhaps it's easier to list those I don't like that much  ;) : Apollo, The Rake's Progress (I find it always bores me to tears--except a couple of brilliant moments--even after seeing it fully staged--Auden libretto and all  ::) ), the Nightingale, the Cantata, Ode, Four Norwegian moods...

I love all of those works even those that you don't enjoy that much. 8) A special nod to all of his concertante works as well like the Violin Concerto, Ebony Concerto, Capriccio for Piano and Orchestra, and Concerto for Piano and Wind Instruments.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ritter on February 13, 2014, 07:46:04 AM
Yep, missed the Violin concerto  :-[ What a wonderful coda at the end.  :) Had the chance of seeing it live with Vengerov, and Boulez conducting the London Symphony here in Madrid (rather unusual -- Boulez isn't really a fan of the work)...great concert!

I missed one of my TOP favourites in my list: Pulcinella !!! ...I never grow tired of it..."Pupillette, fiammette d'amore..."  :) :) :)

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 13, 2014, 07:49:19 AM
Yep, missed the Violin concerto  :-[ What a wonderful coda at the end.  :) Had the chance of seeing it live with Vengerov, and Boulez conducting the London Symphony here in Madrid (rather unusual -- Boulez isn't really a fan of the work)...great concert!

I missed one of my TOP favourites in my list: Pulcinella !!! ...I never grow tired of it..."Pupillette, fiammette d'amore..."  :) :) :)

Excellent. I'm sure that concerto was well-performed by Vengerov (who recorded with Rostropovich on EMI). I'm not surprised Boulez doesn't like the work. There's a lot of music he just doesn't like period. :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 13, 2014, 07:49:29 AM
My quick 25 Favorite Stravinsky Works list:

Le sacre
Symphony of Psalms
Symphonies d'instruments à vent
Concerto per due pianoforti
Les noces
L'histoire du soldat
Petrushka
Symphony in Three Movements
Orpheus
Agon
Le baiser de la fée
L'oiseau de feu
Canticum sacrum
Threni
Ragtime for Eleven Instruments
Mavra
Perséphone
Apollo
Danses concertantes
Feu d'artifice
Concerto for piano and winds
The three motets
Berceuses du chat
Dirge-Canons and Song In memoriam Dylan Thomas
the three Shakespeare Songs
the arrangement of the Bach canonic variations on Vom Himmel hoch
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 13, 2014, 07:50:05 AM
. . . I'm not surprised Boulez doesn't like the work. There's a lot of music he just doesn't like period. :)

Yes, Boulez is quite finicky, really  8)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 13, 2014, 07:55:21 AM
My quick 25 Favorite Stravinsky Works list:

Le sacre
Symphony of Psalms
Symphonies d'instruments à vent
Concerto per due pianoforti
Les noces
L'histoire de soldat
Petrushka
Symphony in Three Movements
Orpheus
Agon
Le baiser de la fée
L'oiseau de feu
Canticum sacrum
Threni
Ragtime for Eleven Instruments
Mavra
Perséphone
Apollo
Danses concertantes
Feu d'artifice
Concerto for piano and winds
The three motets
Berceuses du chat
Dirge-Canons and Song In memoriam Dylan Thomas
the three Shakespeare Songs
the arrangement of the Bach canonic variations on Vom Himmel hoch


All great works! There's not much by Stravinsky I dislike, but I need to revisit Perséphone and Mavra.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 13, 2014, 07:57:17 AM
No, scarcely anything I dislike, either!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 13, 2014, 08:01:22 AM
No, scarcely anything I dislike, either!

The consistency in Stravinsky's oeuvre is just awe-inspiring.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ritter on February 13, 2014, 08:04:45 AM
Reading your comments, Karlhenning and Mirror image, I realise those works I love that I omitted form my rashly prepared list  :-[ : The Symphonies for wind instruments! The Danses concertantes! Le Baiser de la fée (by far, Tchaikovsky's best ballet  ;D )... Stravinsky certainly is an embarras de richesses, from the Pastorale all the way to The Owl and the pussycat....

Have you heard Alexander Goehr's On Stravinsky (based on the Pastorale)?...quite clever and delightful :) Here's an excerpt (but the part in which the Pastorale appears is missing form the video  :( )...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmWBFFH_lvU

Edited to add the missing link to YouTube
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 13, 2014, 08:09:31 AM
Reading your comments, Karlhenning and Mirror image, I realise those works I love that I omitted form my rashly prepared list  :-[ : The Symphonies for wind instruments! The Danses concertantes! Le Baiser de la fée (by far, Tchaikovsky's best ballet  ;D )... Stravinsky certainly is an embarras de richesses, from the Pastorale all the way to The Owl and the pussycat....

Have you heard Alexander Goehr's On Stravinsky (based on the Pastorale)?...quite clever and delightful :) Here's an excerpt (but the part in which the Pastorale apperas is missing form the video  :( )...

Le Baiser de la fee is an excellent work. I listened to it the other day. Absolutely magical. The Pastorale is a great little piece, too. Once I get into a Stravinsky phase, it's just so hard to turn it off. He practically consumes most of my listening time. Before I know it, the sun has set and I'm left wondering where did the day go? ;)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 13, 2014, 12:31:51 PM
My quick 25 Favorite Stravinsky Works list:

Le sacre
Symphony of Psalms
Symphonies d'instruments à vent
Concerto per due pianoforti
Les noces
L'histoire du soldat
Petrushka
Symphony in Three Movements
Orpheus
Agon
Le baiser de la fée
L'oiseau de feu
Canticum sacrum
Threni
Ragtime for Eleven Instruments
Mavra
Perséphone
Apollo
Danses concertantes
Feu d'artifice
Concerto for piano and winds
The three motets
Berceuses du chat
Dirge-Canons and Song In memoriam Dylan Thomas
the three Shakespeare Songs
the arrangement of the Bach canonic variations on Vom Himmel hoch


I've missed out on a few on your list. I'd like to change that at some point. Any thoughts on Renard, Karl? I'm a big fan of the piece.



Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 13, 2014, 12:33:42 PM
I've missed out on a few on your list. I'd like to change that at some point. Any thoughts on Renard, Karl? I'm a big fan of the piece.

I'm not Karl, but I love Renard. I think it's highly underrated to be honest because you never see it recorded that much. The music itself it chockfull of Stravinskian goodness. :) If I'm mistaken, this was a short, small-scale opera, right?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 13, 2014, 01:03:54 PM
I'm not Karl, but I love Renard. I think it's highly underrated to be honest because you never see it recorded that much. The music itself it chockfull of Stravinskian goodness. :) If I'm mistaken, this was a short, small-scale opera, right?

The booklet notes to my recording (Dutoit) describe it as a "burlesque for singing and acting". So stage work, yes. Probably small-scale opera would work, too.

Actually, with nothing but animal characters - and its fox central character - it almost reads like a small-scaled Cunning Little Vixen!

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ritter on February 13, 2014, 01:22:36 PM
Karl's list has most of my favorites, as well.  And it caused me to pull out this nice recording with three of them on it ~

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51289Ji4shL._SX300_.jpg)

Canticum Sacrum
Agon
Requiem Canticles


Gielen
That's a CD I've thought many times of buying, since it includes three Stravinsky works which are among my favourites too...and these pieces should suit Gielen like a glove...

Incidentally, friends of mine who had the chance to chat with Gielen once, reported that he said something to the effect that the Requiem Canticles were his favourite of all Requiem  settings he knew...(and I share that view  ;) )...

As for Renard, Mirror Image, it's more a ballet with singing, or a pantomime, than an opera..all very tongue-in-cheek, with that circus-like atmosphere, and it's over in a flash. Delightful. Boulez made a classic recording in his Domaine Musical days, availbale in this (very interesting) box set:

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 13, 2014, 02:01:02 PM
Renard is good fun! Really, I love any of his cimbalom pieces . . . .
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 13, 2014, 02:47:26 PM
The booklet notes to my recording (Dutoit) describe it as a "burlesque for singing and acting". So stage work, yes. Probably small-scale opera would work, too.

Actually, with nothing but animal characters - and its fox central character - it almost reads like a small-scaled Cunning Little Vixen!

Very cool, DD. 8) Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: not edward on February 13, 2014, 02:48:03 PM
Karl's list has most of my favorites, as well.  And it caused me to pull out this nice recording with three of them on it ~

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51289Ji4shL._SX300_.jpg)

Canticum Sacrum
Agon
Requiem Canticles


Gielen
A fabulous disc: I can't recommend it highly enough.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 13, 2014, 02:48:28 PM

As for Renard, Mirror Image, it's more a ballet with singing, or a pantomime, than an opera..all very tongue-in-cheek, with that circus-like atmosphere, and it's over in a flash. Delightful. Boulez made a classic recording in his Domaine Musical days, availbale in this (very interesting) box set:



Ah okay. Thanks SA. How many discs are in that Boulez set? Looks very interesting.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ritter on February 13, 2014, 03:11:27 PM
Ah okay. Thanks SA. How many discs are in that Boulez set? Looks very interesting.
It's actually two volumes, of 4 CDs each (volume one has a bonus CD as well).

The first volume has Stockhausen, Pousseur, Nono, Henze (before his "exile" from the Darmstadt avantgarde), Messiaen and Boulez himself (Le Marteau twice--the first and second recordings of the work).

The second volume has Stravinsky (Renard, Agon--under Rosbaud), Schoenberg (Pierrot, Serenade, etc.), Webern and Berg.

Both volumes constitute an important document for anyone interested in 20th century music, or in Boulez...

Highly recommended!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 13, 2014, 03:22:42 PM
It's actually two volumes, of 4 CDs each (volume one has a bonus CD as well).

The first volume has Stockhausen, Pousseur, Nono, Henze (before his "exile" from the Darmstadt avantgarde), Messiaen and Boulez himself (Le Marteau twice--the first and second recordings of the work).

The second volume has Stravinsky (Renard, Agon--under Rosbaud), Schoenberg (Pierrot, Serenade, etc.), Webern and Berg.

Both volumes constitute an important document for anyone interested in 20th century music, or in Boulez...

Highly recommended!

Very cool, thanks for the info, SA. 8)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 16, 2014, 10:11:44 PM
Does anyone have a favorite performance of the Violin Concerto? I would say mine is a toss-up between Hahn/Marriner, Chung/Previn, and Lin/Salonen. I can't decide which one I prefer. Gil Shaham has a new one coming out. I'm sure it will be good. I remember Mutter's performance being good.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: springrite on February 16, 2014, 10:15:23 PM
Does anyone have a favorite performance of the Violin Concerto? I would say mine is a toss-up between Hahn/Marriner, Chung/Previn, and Lin/Salonen. I can't decide which one I prefer. Gil Shaham has a new one coming out. I'm sure it will be good. I remember Mutter's performance being good.
I like Gitlis. He can be naughty which is often very good.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 16, 2014, 10:17:46 PM
I like Gitlis. He can be naughty which is often very good.

Slightly naughty, slightly serious is a good mixture for Stravinsky.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: springrite on February 16, 2014, 10:19:33 PM
Slightly naughty, slightly serious is a good mixture for Stravinsky.

Interesting how that describes us both, with your being slightly more naughty though often not intentionally so...
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 16, 2014, 10:27:40 PM
Interesting how that describes us both, with your being slightly more naughty though often not intentionally so...

No wonder I love Stravinsky then! ;) ;D It's fun being transfixed between those two emotional worlds. :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 17, 2014, 04:06:43 AM
Perhaps my favorite recording of the Violin Concerto is Wolfgang Schneiderhan/Ančerl/Berliners.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: springrite on February 17, 2014, 04:43:39 AM
Perhaps my favorite recording of the Violin Concerto is Wolfgang Schneiderhan/Ančerl/Berliners.
I have not heard that one.

BTW Karl, have you gained weight? Only 40% of your face could fit into the frame now, it seems...
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 17, 2014, 04:44:42 AM
Strictly, no . . . but I may be acquiring gravitas!  :laugh:    0:)    8)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: springrite on February 17, 2014, 04:47:02 AM
Strictly, no . . . but I may be acquiring gravitas!  :laugh:    0:)    8)

Always preferred to airiness, I'd say!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 17, 2014, 06:21:42 AM
One of my favorite phrases from Brave New World: "Charmingly pneumatic" . . . .
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 17, 2014, 07:55:26 AM
Perhaps my favorite recording of the Violin Concerto is Wolfgang Schneiderhan/Ančerl/Berliners.

Cool, Karl. I don't believe I own this one. I'll check it out.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 17, 2014, 08:17:41 AM
Can anyone recommend some good books on Stravinsky?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ritter on February 17, 2014, 08:31:37 AM
Can anyone recommend some good books on Stravinsky?
If you haven't read his books of conversations with Robert Craft, they're a must, and highly entertaining (even if recent scholars have apparently proved that there's more Craft than Stravinsky in many of the composer's assertions).

And this book was a fascinating read:



Very enjoyable and informative! I must get round to reading volume 1... :-[
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 17, 2014, 09:03:58 AM
Thanks for the recommendation, Ritter. I'm thinking of getting the Stravinsky book written by Michael Oliver on Phaidon. I own several of these books and they're quite good and contain many rare photographs of the composers.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 17, 2014, 10:02:14 AM
If you haven't read his books of conversations with Robert Craft, they're a must, and highly entertaining (even if recent scholars have apparently proved that there's more Craft than Stravinsky in many of the composer's assertions).

And this book was a fascinating read:



Very enjoyable and informative! I must get round to reading volume 1... :-[

Both volumes are essential reading, IMO.

Also essential reading:

Eric Walter White, Stravinsky: The Composer and His Works

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 17, 2014, 10:03:01 AM
If you haven't read his books of conversations with Robert Craft, they're a must, and highly entertaining (even if recent scholars have apparently proved that there's more Craft than Stravinsky in many of the composer's assertions).

I've not gotten around to them, mostly because that "textual cloud" hangs over them . . . .
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ritter on February 17, 2014, 10:15:27 AM
I've not gotten around to them, mostly because that "textual cloud" hangs over them . . . .
Yep, that "textual cloud" is a problem, but they are GREAT FUN to read  :D ... I read the first 3 many, many years ago, and at that time the doubts about who actually was saying what in these conversations were not as strong as they are today. Even with our current knowledge, the books are delightful... :)

Will take note of Eric Walter White's book...thanks, Karlhenning!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 17, 2014, 10:28:29 AM
Both volumes are essential reading, IMO.

Also essential reading:

Eric Walter White, Stravinsky: The Composer and His Works



Thanks for the feedback, Karl! Will definitely be considering them in the future.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 19, 2014, 06:42:19 PM
What do all of my fellow Stravinskians think of the ballet Orpheus? What do you think Stravinsky was trying to convey here? Any favorite performances?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Ken B on February 19, 2014, 07:52:05 PM
What do all of my fellow Stravinskians think of the ballet Orpheus? What do you think Stravinsky was trying to convey here? Any favorite performances?

I adore Orpheus. I had an old vinyl I liked on Philips, Colin Davis and maybe LSO. Chailly is good.
I think he was trying to not use flash and color.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Ken B on February 19, 2014, 07:58:36 PM
My quick 25 Favorite Stravinsky Works list:

Le sacre
Symphony of Psalms
Symphonies d'instruments à vent
Concerto per due pianoforti
Les noces
L'histoire du soldat
Petrushka
Symphony in Three Movements
Orpheus
Agon
Le baiser de la fée
L'oiseau de feu
Canticum sacrum
Threni
Ragtime for Eleven Instruments
Mavra
Perséphone
Apollo
Danses concertantes
Feu d'artifice
Concerto for piano and winds
The three motets
Berceuses du chat
Dirge-Canons and Song In memoriam Dylan Thomas
the three Shakespeare Songs
the arrangement of the Bach canonic variations on Vom Himmel hoch


My top 3 are missing.
Dumbarton Oaks
Symphony in C
Jeu de Cartes
After that it's hard. Canticum, Apollo, Noces, Rite, Scenes, 3 mvmts, Psalms, Orpheus, Rex
Different order next week, but same top 3
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 19, 2014, 08:02:36 PM
I adore Orpheus. I had an old vinyl I liked on Philips, Colin Davis and maybe LSO. Chailly is good.
I think he was trying to not use flash and color.

Yep, I think Stravinsky was trying to convey a different type of atmosphere with Orpheus. What's interesting is Apollo also conjures this dreamy, almost surreal, soundscape.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 19, 2014, 08:07:07 PM
I don't own, or haven't heard, nearly as much as some of you, but I do adore quite a bit from Stravinsky, mainly his neo-classical sound.

Favorites
Dumbarton Oaks
L'histoire du soldat
Symphony in Three Movements
Symphony in C
Symphony of Psalms
Petrushka

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Ken B on February 19, 2014, 08:07:34 PM
My top 3 are missing.
Dumbarton Oaks
Symphony in C
Jeu de Cartes
After that it's hard. Canticum, Apollo, Noces, Rite, Scenes, 3 mvmts, Psalms, Orpheus, Rex
Different order next week, but same top 3
Eek. Forgot Ebony Concerto.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Ken B on February 19, 2014, 08:11:01 PM
If I ever got a chance to conduct I'd want to do Jeu de Cartes.
For one thing I know it cold, which is useful conducting when you don't read music!
But I think it's a hard piece to get right, and leaves lots of places for little touches.
Ashkenazy nails it.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 19, 2014, 08:12:55 PM
If I ever got a chance to conduct I'd want to do Jeu de Cartes.
For one thing I know it cold, which is useful conducting when you don't read music!
But I think it's a hard piece to get right, and leaves lots of places for little touches.
Ashkenazy nails it.

I like Abbado and Craft just fine. Haven't heard Ashkenazy, but I'm not fond of his conducting.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 19, 2014, 08:28:35 PM
I adore Orpheus. I had an old vinyl I liked on Philips, Colin Davis and maybe LSO. Chailly is good.
I think he was trying to not use flash and color.

Did Chailly record Orpheus? I know Ashkenazy did.


Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Ken B on February 19, 2014, 08:31:01 PM
Did Chailly record Orpheus? I know Ashkenazy did.
I might be confused, as I think it was concertgebouw. It's in the Decca box, and is good.
Kraft is certainly good as is Jarvi, but I liked Davis best.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 19, 2014, 08:47:52 PM
What do all of my fellow Stravinskians think of the ballet Orpheus? What do you think Stravinsky was trying to convey here? Any favorite performances?

I have the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra version. They make a solid case for the work. I think I have to be in the right mood for it, though, subdued as it is. But no doubt it's awesome Stravinsky.




(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/006/MI0001006978.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 19, 2014, 09:07:37 PM
I have the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra version. They make a solid case for the work. I think I have to be in the right mood for it, though, subdued as it is. But no doubt it's awesome Stravinsky.

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/006/MI0001006978.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Yep, that's a great disc. Think I'll spin it tonight. 8)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 19, 2014, 09:09:48 PM
I might be confused, as I think it was concertgebouw. It's in the Decca box, and is good.
Kraft is certainly good as is Jarvi, but I liked Davis best.

Jarvi is a decent Stravinskian, but nowhere near a favorite of mine. Kraft makes some good cheese, but I know you meant Craft. ;) ;D
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 19, 2014, 09:10:35 PM
Did Chailly record Orpheus? I know Ashkenazy did.

Nope, but he did record Apollo. :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 19, 2014, 09:33:49 PM
Nope, but he did record Apollo. :)

I love Chaily's Stravinsky.

As far as what Stravinsky was trying to convey with Orpheus, well, the work has such a delicate, wispy feel that it's hard not to view it as something of an anti-Le Sacre. At least that's my impression. Dunno if there's any truth to that, though...


Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Ken B on February 19, 2014, 09:38:09 PM
Jarvi is a decent Stravinskian, but nowhere near a favorite of mine. Kraft makes some good cheese, but I know you meant Craft. ;) ;D
Actually I meant Stavinscy, the well known Dutch composer.

   :blank:
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 19, 2014, 09:38:15 PM
I love Chaily's Stravinsky.

As far as what Stravinsky was trying to convey with Orpheus, well, the work has such a delicate, wispy feel that it's hard not to view it as something of an anti-Le Sacre. At least that's my impression. Dunno if there's any truth to that, though...

Do you find that Orpheus and Apollo share any similar musical qualities? Of course, Apollo is scored for just a string orchestra, but there is, as you state, a delicacy in Orpheus that takes me back to the Apollo sound-world even though the instrumentation is obviously quite different.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: OrchestralNut on February 20, 2014, 05:57:46 AM
Do you find that Orpheus and Apollo share any similar musical qualities? Of course, Apollo is scored for just a string orchestra, but there is, as you state, a delicacy in Orpheus that takes me back to the Apollo sound-world even though the instrumentation is obviously quite different.

I do find that they do, even though they are unique in their own sense.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on February 20, 2014, 08:09:07 AM
Do you find that Orpheus and Apollo share any similar musical qualities? Of course, Apollo is scored for just a string orchestra, but there is, as you state, a delicacy in Orpheus that takes me back to the Apollo sound-world even though the instrumentation is obviously quite different.

They DO make great disc-mates... ALWAYS and ForEver... I have Craft on Naxos (with 'Agon'), nice, fruity recordings. I'd like to try Salonen.

I like 'Orpheus' because of the marble white sound, the descending pattern that is so familiar, the tone. 'Apollo' is the exact foil- almost reminding me of a more masculine Finzi?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 20, 2014, 08:49:41 PM
Do you find that Orpheus and Apollo share any similar musical qualities? Of course, Apollo is scored for just a string orchestra, but there is, as you state, a delicacy in Orpheus that takes me back to the Apollo sound-world even though the instrumentation is obviously quite different.

Yes, I think that's fair. The two works do seem to have similar dispositions. But Apollo is definitely more apt to shred the musical line in many places whereas Orpheus can't seem to do anything but revel in its serenity. Which is by design, of course.

Great job by Stravinsky to stick to his guns in Orpheus.

BTW, earlier I was listening to the recording of Apollo below and my fiancé remarked, "I really like this piece...it's light but dark". That's a pretty good description. :)




(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/4a/c9/148b124128a07e7c74618010.L.jpg)

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 20, 2014, 08:52:00 PM
They DO make great disc-mates... ALWAYS and ForEver... I have Craft on Naxos (with 'Agon'), nice, fruity recordings. I'd like to try Salonen.

I like 'Orpheus' because of the marble white sound, the descending pattern that is so familiar, the tone. 'Apollo' is the exact foil- almost reminding me of a more masculine Finzi?

As usual, I'm amused and baffled by your posts. But do carry on! ;) ;D
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 20, 2014, 08:55:36 PM
Yes, I think that's fair. The two works do seem to have similar dispositions. But Apollo is definitely more apt to shred the musical line in many places whereas Orpheus can't seem to do anything but revel in its serenity. Which is by design, of course.

Great job by Stravinsky to stick to his guns in Orpheus.

BWT, earlier I was listening to the recording of Apollo below and my fiancé remarked, "I really like this piece...it's light but dark". That's a pretty good description. :)

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/4a/c9/148b124128a07e7c74618010.L.jpg)

I agree. Stravinsky always composed the music that he wanted to and my hat is off to him for this kind of dedication. BTW, your fiance has great taste, too. 8)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 20, 2014, 08:59:32 PM
BTW, your fiance has great taste, too. 8)

She doesn't always like the "moderns" but this one does it for her. :D


Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Ken B on February 20, 2014, 09:05:14 PM
They DO make great disc-mates... ALWAYS and ForEver... I have Craft on Naxos (with 'Agon'), nice, fruity recordings. I'd like to try Salonen.

I like 'Orpheus' because of the marble white sound, the descending pattern that is so familiar, the tone. 'Apollo' is the exact foil- almost reminding me of a more masculine Finzi?
Like John I,m puzzled. White is the adjective Stravinsky used for Apollo. Like John I find Orpheus softer, more pastel while still muted in color and contrast. Degas
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 21, 2014, 05:38:48 AM
I sort of worry that snypsss seems to feel that Finzi was a girly-man . . . .
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ritter on May 03, 2014, 01:14:49 AM
This might be interesting (or perhaps not  :-\ ):

(http://i.prs.to/t_200/cmajor716308.jpg)

From Presto Classical's "Future releases" page:

STRAVINSKY IN HOLLYWOOD explores the short-lived film career of this legendary composer, it is the story of his trials and tribulations with the Hollywood Studios, the story of an “old school” European artist knocking heads with the brash New World. Igor Stravinsky lived in the heart of Hollywood from 1939 until shortly before his death in 1971. He came expecting to find lucrative work composing for the movies. The film uses a combination of existing archival footage (some of it never before seen), interviews with Stravinsky and his assistant Robert Craft.

The documentary includes scenes from several big studio films of the 40s brought together for the first time with the music which Stravinsky wrote for them.

SOUND FORMAT DVD: PCM Stereo

PICTURE 16:9, HD

SUBTITLES: English, German (voice over and subtitles)

BOOKLET: E, G, F

TOTAL RUNNING TIME. 54 MINS   


Not very generous running time for the 24 € price demanded!  >:(



Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 04, 2014, 02:15:39 AM
Maybe they'll have it at the library . . . .
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: EigenUser on May 24, 2014, 03:38:31 PM
So, I recently listened to "Symphonies of Wind Instruments". Didn't care for it. Then, I found a nice copy of a score on sale, so I bought it. I listened to it again with the score. Thought it was okay. Listened to it again with the score. Really liked it.

Any thoughts on this piece?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Ken B on May 24, 2014, 03:56:05 PM
So, I recently listened to "Symphonies of Wind Instruments". Didn't care for it. Then, I found a nice copy of a score on sale, so I bought it. I listened to it again with the score. Thought it was okay. Listened to it again with the score. Really liked it.

Any thoughts on this piece?
Not that one. Another similar experience.
It took me years to lie Dumbarton Oaks. I knew I should like it, I liked similar Igors. But it never excited me until one day, after dutifully listening several times a year for a few years, suddenly it clicked. It is one of my favourite Igors now.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: North Star on May 25, 2014, 01:41:48 AM
So, I recently listened to "Symphonies of Wind Instruments". Didn't care for it. Then, I found a nice copy of a score on sale, so I bought it. I listened to it again with the score. Thought it was okay. Listened to it again with the score. Really liked it.

Any thoughts on this piece?
Great piece, heard it live earlier this year. :)

Off the top of my head, my 11 favourites are probably these

Rite
Petrushka
Firebird
VC
Pulcinella
Apollo
Agon
Orpheus
Symphonies of Wind Instruments
Symphony of Psalms
Les Noces
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: EigenUser on May 25, 2014, 04:27:42 AM
Great piece, heard it live earlier this year. :)

Off the top of my head, my 11 favourites are probably these

Rite
Petrushka
Firebird
VC
Pulcinella
Apollo
Agon
Orpheus
Symphonies of Wind Instruments
Symphony of Psalms
Les Noces
Stravinsky is a 'hit or miss' composer with me. I never liked Firebird (that's right), Les Noces, Pulcinella, or Symphony of Psalms very much. I mean, it's all great music, but I just didn't feel like I wanted to listen to it again immediately. I love (and play on violin) the VC, Scherzo a la Russe, Agon, Rite, and Petrushka. I'm also starting to like SWI as I stated in my previous post -- but it's short.

I think Rite is starting to slip as well, but it's my fault for over-playing it. "Agon" is my new favorite. I've seen it (more than once) described as his most cerebral piece, but I don't look at it in that way -- it just sounds like fun and joy to me. In fact, it puts me in a similar mood to that of the Haydn symphonies.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: petrarch on May 25, 2014, 05:10:49 AM
I think Rite is starting to slip as well, but it's my fault for over-playing it.

Read Boulez's analysis of it in his Relevés d'apprenti. That gave me an entirely new perspective on the work.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Ken B on May 25, 2014, 06:06:02 AM
Stravinsky is a 'hit or miss' composer with me. I never liked Firebird (that's right), Les Noces, Pulcinella, or Symphony of Psalms very much. I mean, it's all great music, but I just didn't feel like I wanted to listen to it again immediately. I love (and play on violin) the VC, Scherzo a la Russe, Agon, Rite, and Petrushka. I'm also starting to like SWI as I stated in my previous post -- but it's short.

I think Rite is starting to slip as well, but it's my fault for over-playing it. "Agon" is my new favorite. I've seen it (more than once) described as his most cerebral piece, but I don't look at it in that way -- it just sounds like fun and joy to me. In fact, it puts me in a similar mood to that of the Haydn symphonies.
Fwiw I don't care for the Firebird either. Not surprising in my case actually. You really need a good recording of Les Noces. I like Bernstein on DG. The composer's own is poor. Craft is good but Lenny is better. You might like the Ebony Concerto. In that the composer's recording rules.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on May 25, 2014, 06:15:16 AM
I seem to go through a Stravinsky 'phase' every year and what I learn each time is that he was an incredibly consistent composer. I think he's such a master and there's not a stone that I have yet unturned in his relatively good size oeuvre. Great stuff.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: EigenUser on May 25, 2014, 06:28:09 AM
Fwiw I don't care for the Firebird either. Not surprising in my case actually. You really need a good recording of Les Noces. I like Bernstein on DG. The composer's own is poor. Craft is good but Lenny is better. You might like the Ebony Concerto. In that the composer's recording rules.
I've heard the "Ebony Concerto" -- I think that it might follow a path similar to SWI. I should hear it again. I should also hear "Dumbarton Oaks" considering I live less than 30 miles from Dumbarton Oaks :D.

I didn't like the "Concerto in D" (the concerto grosso) much at all. The VC, on the other hand, is a different story. That is one of my favorite concertos to play on violin, along with the Mendelssohn E minor.

I find Stravinsky more challenging to "figure out" because he seemed to like changing his style at every full moon.

Read Boulez's analysis of it in his Relevés d'apprenti. That gave me an entirely new perspective on the work.
I'll check it out sometime. Thanks!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 25, 2014, 06:30:20 AM
Another Firebird non-lover here. Overexposure to it (recordings, radio, live concerts) has made me immune to its, admittedly, attractive qualities. My local band (the Rheinland-Pfalz) has once again programmed it for the upcoming season...sigh. It comes up so often it's like conductors don't realize Stravinsky composed other works.

Sarge   
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Ken B on May 25, 2014, 07:01:01 AM
Another Firebird non-lover here. Overexposure to it (recordings, radio, live concerts) has made me immune to its, admittedly, attractive qualities. My local band (the Rheinland-Pfalz) has once again programmed it for the upcoming season...sigh. It comes up so often it's like conductors don't realize Stravinsky composed other works.

Sarge
It has always been his most popular work. It made him tons of money, so enabled a lot of great music. But I am glad too that there are others who share my reaction. Now if I could just convince you guys that La Mer and the other behemoth showpieces of that ilk, Pictures for instance, are the same kind of animal ...
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on May 25, 2014, 09:18:33 AM
I've heard the "Ebony Concerto" -- I think that it might follow a path similar to SWI. I should hear it again. I should also hear "Dumbarton Oaks" considering I live less than 30 miles from Dumbarton Oaks :D.

I didn't like the "Concerto in D" (the concerto grosso) much at all. The VC, on the other hand, is a different story. That is one of my favorite concertos to play on violin, along with the Mendelssohn E minor.

I find Stravinsky more challenging to "figure out" because he seemed to like changing his style at every full moon.
I'll check it out sometime. Thanks!

Md. or Va.?


SWI is just a jolly little 8mins., nothing more. But apparently I'm missing something- isn't it supposed to be some kind of Dada Masterpiece? Or is that the 'Octet'? SWI sounds like marionette music to me.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: EigenUser on May 25, 2014, 09:42:37 AM
Md. or Va.?
Va. You?

I'm not sure if you're in the market for sheet music, but there is this huge sheet music store going out of business in Silver Spring, MD. Lots of scores available for cheap. I even saw an oversized Xenakis score ("Eonta", I think) crammed in with the miniature score section. They'll be closed for good on June 28th, I think.

The more I hear SWI, the more I think of Rite -- especially the introduction (to Rite) with all of the wind instruments.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on May 25, 2014, 10:07:59 AM
Va. You?

I'm not sure if you're in the market for sheet music, but there is this huge sheet music store going out of business in Silver Spring, MD. Lots of scores available for cheap. I even saw an oversized Xenakis score ("Eonta", I think) crammed in with the miniature score section. They'll be closed for good on June 28th, I think.

The more I hear SWI, the more I think of Rite -- especially the introduction (to Rite) with all of the wind instruments.

Charm City

Who/Where in Silver Spring? I go to CD Depot and Atomic Music... the Depot has a large selection of Used Classical
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: EigenUser on May 25, 2014, 10:29:52 AM
Charm City

Who/Where in Silver Spring? I go to CD Depot and Atomic Music... the Depot has a large selection of Used Classical
Dale Music. It's on Georgia Avenue just after the Rt.29/Colesville Road crossing (coming from the north/Beltway exit). Neat store. I'm not sure how many recordings they have, but they have a ton of sheet music. There's still an extra copy of SWI, btw :).

They also had the Stravinsky wind/PC.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: not edward on May 25, 2014, 11:21:39 AM
SWI is just a jolly little 8mins., nothing more. But apparently I'm missing something- isn't it supposed to be some kind of Dada Masterpiece? Or is that the 'Octet'? SWI sounds like marionette music to me.
Jolly? The word that comes to mind for me is 'austere.'

On Firebird, it's well-done, for sure, but for me the Stravinsky that matters begins with Petrouchka.
Title: Re: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 25, 2014, 04:32:33 PM
Another Firebird non-lover here. Overexposure to it (recordings, radio, live concerts) has made me immune to its, admittedly, attractive qualities. My local band (the Rheinland-Pfalz) has once again programmed it for the upcoming season...sigh. It comes up so often it's like conductors don't realize Stravinsky composed other works.

Sarge

Dreadfully unimaginative programming.
Title: Re: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 25, 2014, 04:43:01 PM
It has always been his most popular work. It made him tons of money ...

Not the original ballet, nor the first couple of suites (which are most frequently programmed)...those were a Russian imprint which fell out of copyright in the West. He did up a new suite after settling in Hollywood;  Boosey may still own the rights to that.

In short, I'd be surprised if Stravinsky benefited from L'oiseau de feu to anything like the degree which its popularity ought to have earned him.
Title: Re: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: EigenUser on May 25, 2014, 04:45:57 PM
[...] Boosey may still own the rights to that. [...]
Ugh. Sigh. Not necessarily for Firebird, but for all of the other wonderful music they smother.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: OrchestralNut on July 03, 2014, 06:53:44 AM
I feel an intense desire to go on a Stravinsky binge.  I will, once I get home.  Karl and anyone else, feel free to join!  8)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 03, 2014, 07:20:50 AM
I'm in! :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: OrchestralNut on July 03, 2014, 07:21:10 AM
I'm in! :)

+1  :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 03, 2014, 07:28:09 AM
Good idea, day off today, I'll spin this one (I do need to get more into Stravinsky)...

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: OrchestralNut on July 03, 2014, 07:31:04 AM
Good idea, day off today, I'll spin this one (I do need to get more into Stravinsky)...



Great start!  Orpheus and Jeu de Cartes are both in my personal 'Top 10 Stravinsky'.  :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 03, 2014, 07:58:00 AM
I'm starting with Perséphone, just because it's a work I've not listened to often enough  8)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: OrchestralNut on July 03, 2014, 08:36:09 AM
I'm starting with Perséphone, just because it's a work I've not listened to often enough  8)

This is true for me also.  I remember the last time I listened to this work, it made a more favourable impression than it had in the past.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 03, 2014, 08:37:45 AM
Still crazy about the Symphony in Three Movements, after all these years . . . .
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: OrchestralNut on July 03, 2014, 08:45:58 AM
Still crazy about the Symphony in Three Movements, after all these years . . . .

It's a beaut!  :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on July 03, 2014, 09:49:33 AM
Muti 'Le Sacre'? >:D
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: OrchestralNut on July 03, 2014, 10:08:30 AM
Muti 'Le Sacre'? >:D

Lance - 'Le Sac du Printemps'  ;D
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Ken B on July 03, 2014, 11:05:44 AM
Great start!  Orpheus and Jeu de Cartes are both in my personal 'Top 10 Stravinsky'.  :)
Moi aussi. Especially Cartes.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Ken B on July 03, 2014, 11:08:09 AM
Still crazy about the Symphony in Three Movements, after all these years . . . .
It's a great piece. I always look forward to a new recording of that.  So how do you feel about his best symphony, C?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: OrchestralNut on July 04, 2014, 01:30:42 PM
Listening to these two colourful works!

The Song of the Nightingale

Columbia Symphony Orchestra

Danses Concertantes

Columbia Chamber Orchestra

Robert Craft

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: OrchestralNut on July 05, 2014, 04:45:48 AM
More Stravinsky, for this Saturday morning!

Symphony in Three Movements

Columbia Symphony Orchestra

Symphony in C
Symphony of Psalms

CBC Symphony Orchestra

Stravinsky, conducting

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 05, 2014, 05:41:51 AM
More Stravinsky, for this Saturday morning!

Symphony in Three Movements

Columbia Symphony Orchestra

Symphony in C
Symphony of Psalms

CBC Symphony Orchestra

Stravinsky, conducting



G'day, Ray!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: OrchestralNut on July 05, 2014, 05:53:57 AM
G'day, Ray!

Good morning, Karl!  :)

Now I'm on to Orpheus, from the same box.  8)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: OrchestralNut on July 06, 2014, 06:39:36 AM
I've concluded my Stravinsky binge over the last few days, and am now satisfied and sated!  8)

Listened to 23 straight Stravinsky compositions (all from the Stravinsky Sony Box):

Persephone
Song of The Nightingale symphonic poem
Danses Concertantes
Symphony in Three Movements
Symphony in C
Symphony of Psalms
Orpheus
Apollon Musagete
Scenes de Ballet
Bluebird - Pas de Deux
The Fairy's Kiss
Scherzo a la Russe & Fireworks
Scherzo Fantastique
Petrushka - Suite
Pulcinella - Suite
Firebird - Suite
The Rite of Spring
Violin Concerto in D
Dumbarton Oaks Chamber Concerto
Octet for Wind Instruments
Symphonies of Wind Instruments
Duo Concertante for Violin and Piano
Symphony in E flat, Op. 1

 :)

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 06, 2014, 07:43:47 AM
Sweet!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 10, 2014, 08:52:19 AM
Enormously pleased that I rustled up the Craft MusicMasters Vol. IV disc, not only because I already had the Apollo and Orpheus which share the Naxos reissue with Agon (Craft's recording of which I was keen to hear), but especially for (par exemple two miniatures which probably dropped off the Naxos re-packaging regimen:  the arrangement of the Star-Spangled Banner for men's choir (in up to 6 parts) is exquisite!

This recording of Agon is tastier even than I had anticipated.  Part of that is just that Rolf Schulte rocks the violin solo writing.  But overall, Craft emphasizes the energetic character of (for instance) the re-interpreted antique dances . . . I don't recall hearing the Gaillarde anywhere near as effervescent as here.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41J8J8G8ZEL.jpg)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 10, 2014, 09:31:59 AM
Per this (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,23541.msg829560.html#msg829560) . . . I took a quick look in vol. 2 of the Walsh biography:

Quote from: Stephen Walsh
In his by now chronic cynicism about the real feelings of the European avant-garde toward his music, Stravinsky seems to have been happy to keep his personal friendship with Boulez separate from the more complex question of professional loyalty.  “What a joy to see you in Copenhagen,” he told him when he next wrote;  and to Souvtchinsky he sighed:  “Poor Boulez, it’s not very jolly to be surrounded by such people.”  But the indulgent words concealed a question mark, since Stravinsky went on to talk about Stockhausen in a tone of resigned reproach that implicitly included Boulez.

He knows me so little, and my music interests him so little.  He belongs naturally to a generation which needs biologically to be hostile to me.  What to do?  I can’t change and won’t think or speak ill of him for it, but will simply regret that it’s so and that it’s useless to expect any reciprocity on his part.

It was left to Souvtchinsky to interpret this lament in his own way.  “Believe me,” he wrote, “Stockhausen truly values and understands you, but he’s a bit gauche, in a way rather uncouth….”

from Stravinsky, The Second Exile:  France and America, 1934-1971, pp.404-405
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Ken B on September 10, 2014, 12:19:36 PM
Per this (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,23541.msg829560.html#msg829560) . . . I took a quick look in vol. 2 of the Walsh biography:

from Stravinsky, The Second Exile:  France and America, 1934-1971, pp.404-405

I found this

Quote
I was talking to KS. He's so tall, schwing! I bet he's hung like a horse. Anyway he was helping me with Agon, but wants to keep it a secret. He's just so ... Superb

Don't know it means anything but I thought I'd pass it along.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Ken B on September 10, 2014, 12:26:19 PM
I've concluded my Stravinsky binge over the last few days, and am now satisfied and sated!  8)

Listened to 23 straight Stravinsky compositions (all from the Stravinsky Sony Box):

Persephone
Song of The Nightingale symphonic poem
Danses Concertantes
Symphony in Three Movements
Symphony in C
Symphony of Psalms
Orpheus
Apollon Musagete
Scenes de Ballet
Bluebird - Pas de Deux
The Fairy's Kiss
Scherzo a la Russe & Fireworks
Scherzo Fantastique
Petrushka - Suite
Pulcinella - Suite
Firebird - Suite
The Rite of Spring
Violin Concerto in D
Dumbarton Oaks Chamber Concerto
Octet for Wind Instruments
Symphonies of Wind Instruments
Duo Concertante for Violin and Piano
Symphony in E flat, Op. 1

 :)

No Jeu de Cartes?

 >:D
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 11, 2014, 03:28:17 AM
No Jeu de Cartes?

 >:D

I listen to it so often, Ken.  I was trying to listen to at least some of the works that I don't listen as often.  Jeu de Cartes is definitely a favourite.  :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 11, 2014, 05:18:29 AM
Here’s an interesting excerpt from the Walsh book:

Quote from: Stephen Walsh
In Balanchine’s original scheme, Stravinsky had evidently reached the point at which “the dances which began quite simply in the sixteenth century took fire in the twentieth and exploded.”  For him it was the critical moment in the whole work [Agon], the moment at which his new, esoteric compositional technique had to be invested with a vibrant physicality alien to the music of its inventors and only found spasmodically, if at all, in a handful of works by younger composers–Boulez’s Structures, Stockhausen’s Kontra-Punkte–that he had heard but not studied.

(from Stravinsky, The Second Exile:  France and America, 1934-1971, pp.342

Now, considering the recent discussion mulling the question of Stockhausen supposedly influencing Igor Fyodorich.  This paragraph is about Agon, and mentions Stockhausen;  for the lazy reader, that will “mean” influence!  In fact, it is simply part of the narrative of Stravinsky’s reconciling his highly individual application of serial technique (which was not a specific influence of either Boulez or Stockhausen, but goes back to Robert Craft “introducing” Igor Fyodorovich to the music of Webern), with the “vibrant physicality” which was always one of the hallmarks of Stravinsky’s work.

Specifically, this paragraph indicates, if anything, Boulez and Stockhausen as “negative exemplars,” for the physicality is found (according to the text) only “spasmodically, if at all” in these works which Stravinsky was known to have heard.
 
Did Stockhausen, Suuuuper Geenius, influence Stravinsky?   If there is evidence, it has not yet surfaced . . . .
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 11, 2014, 10:51:29 AM
Quote from: Stephen Walsh
. . . He had suffered a serious stroke, and a second one, still more severe, was possible and might be fatal.  Yet even now, incredibly, he did not go to hospital.  Instead he spent a day with Karl Amadeus Hartmann, the director of the Musica Viva series in Munich, and enjoyed a high-protein dinner cooked specially for him by the chef of the Hotel Vier Jahreszeiten.  His Munich concert on the 10th was cancelled.  But only when Maurice Gilbert arrived from Geneva and talked to the local specialist was Stravinsky finally persuaded to abandon his Swiss tour and, on that same 10 October, enter the Red Cross Hospital in Munich.  There he stayed for more than five weeks, forced into an unwilling quiescence while the world shook at events in Budapest, Warsaw, and Suez.  Vera stayed with him, sustained by tranquillizers, terrified of the future, desperate to go home.  Letters flowed in from friends urging him to rest, to give up conducting, to save himself for composition.  Eugene Berman wrote to Craft, insisting that he, or Vera, or even Theodore, should act.  The newspapers hovered.  After a month, the patient received a visit from the holy trinity of the avant-garde–Boulez, Stockhausen, Nono–as if they hoped for a “Weihekuss,” a consecrating kiss, like Beethoven’s on the child Liszt.

(from Stravinsky, The Second Exile:  France and America, 1934-1971, p.348
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mandryka on September 24, 2014, 09:19:02 PM
Why is the 1919 Les Noces incomplete? Why didn't he finish the transcription? I notice that it has been completed by someone quite recently - there's a performance on vimeo.

Is it true that Les Noces was originally a 3 act opera? That's something that Boulez seems to suggest in a concert talk he gave in the 1981 premiere of the 1919 version in Paris. Has anyone performed the opera?

In case anyone's wondering what on earth I'm going on about, the 1919 Les Noces is a version for pianola and cimbalom.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 25, 2014, 04:03:52 AM
Why is the 1919 Les Noces incomplete? Why didn't he finish the transcription?

I want to go back to my sources . . . I want to say that this was not a transcription, but that the composer was still in the process of searching for quite the scoring he wanted.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mandryka on September 25, 2014, 06:42:44 AM
I want to go back to my sources . . . I want to say that this was not a transcription, but that the composer was still in the process of searching for quite the scoring he wanted.

Thanks. I'd be interested to hear anything interesting you find. I used the word transcription because Boulez used it in the 1981 pre concert talk - I don't know if transcription has nuances in French which are different than in English - probably.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Linus on February 06, 2015, 03:09:53 AM
From a Stravinsky newbie like me:

I'm a little frustrated by finding that many of his compositions never find "release".

Most--if not all--his stuff is wonderfully tense, weird and strange, and all those otherworldly chords are awesome. But I find his pieces just race into darkness and disappear rather than resolve/dissolve into something beautifully bright--a conclusion or redemption, if you will. Although I enjoy Stravinsky very much and am constantly gobsmacked by his imagination and skill, I sometimes wish he would have gone that extra mile to create something starting from the ground and going all the way up, so to speak.

Am I nuts or do others feel something similar?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: EigenUser on February 06, 2015, 06:45:29 AM
From a Stravinsky newbie like me:

I'm a little frustrated by finding that many of his compositions never find "release".

Most--if not all--his stuff is wonderfully tense, weird and strange, and all those otherworldly chords are awesome. But I find his pieces just race into darkness and disappear rather than resolve/dissolve into something beautifully bright--a conclusion or redemption, if you will. Although I enjoy Stravinsky very much and am constantly gobsmacked by his imagination and skill, I sometimes wish he would have gone that extra mile to create something starting from the ground and going all the way up, so to speak.

Am I nuts or do others feel something similar?
Give a quick listen to his Scherzo a la Russe (very short -- c.a. 4 minutes). Hard not to crack a smile while listening to it. The ending is a hoot! Here's my favorite recording of the piece:
https://www.youtube.com/v/6z_y8_8oDrY

If you like that, then I bet you'd like his Violin Concerto, too -- particularly the first movement ('toccata').

My favorite Stravinsky is Agon. It might be worth a listen for you, too, though I'd be surprised if you liked it immediately based off of your comment above (BTW, I didn't like it until I saw the fun in it).
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: lescamil on February 06, 2015, 07:06:07 AM
http://vimeo.com/58815780

The 1919 completion of Les Noces was done by Theo Verbey with the approval of Stravinsky's estate (he has also completed the string orchestra version of Berg's Lyric Suite, also with similar blessing). I quite like this version and I wish it would be recorded on a commercial CD soon.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on February 06, 2015, 09:46:19 AM
From a Stravinsky newbie like me:

I'm a little frustrated by finding that many of his compositions never find "release".

Most--if not all--his stuff is wonderfully tense, weird and strange, and all those otherworldly chords are awesome. But I find his pieces just race into darkness and disappear rather than resolve/dissolve into something beautifully bright--a conclusion or redemption, if you will. Although I enjoy Stravinsky very much and am constantly gobsmacked by his imagination and skill, I sometimes wish he would have gone that extra mile to create something starting from the ground and going all the way up, so to speak.

Am I nuts or do others feel something similar?

maybe it's the ritualistic aspects that mitigate against traditional tension-release?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Linus on February 07, 2015, 06:15:19 AM
Give a quick listen to his Scherzo a la Russe (very short -- c.a. 4 minutes). Hard not to crack a smile while listening to it. The ending is a hoot! Here's my favorite recording of the piece:

If you like that, then I bet you'd like his Violin Concerto, too -- particularly the first movement ('toccata').

My favorite Stravinsky is Agon. It might be worth a listen for you, too, though I'd be surprised if you liked it immediately based off of your comment above (BTW, I didn't like it until I saw the fun in it).

Thanks for your input, but I was hoping to find a piece of his that goes from typical Stravinsky tension to a conclusion, not a bright-sounding piece that seems to already have found "redemption" on the first note (which is the case with the scherzo and the VC toccata, IMHO). :) (Agon is a bit too serial for me to handle at the moment.)

maybe it's the ritualistic aspects that mitigate against traditional tension-release?

Yes, that seems quite plausible, cool observation. I wonder, was he the first composer to do that?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: North Star on February 07, 2015, 06:19:13 AM
Thanks for your input, but I was hoping to find a piece of his that goes from typical Stravinsky tension to a conclusion, not a bright-sounding piece that seems to already have found "redemption" on the first note.
The Firebird.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: chadfeldheimer on February 07, 2015, 06:44:58 AM
Here’s an interesting excerpt from the Walsh book:

(from Stravinsky, The Second Exile:  France and America, 1934-1971, pp.342

Now, considering the recent discussion mulling the question of Stockhausen supposedly influencing Igor Fyodorich.  This paragraph is about Agon, and mentions Stockhausen;  for the lazy reader, that will “mean” influence!  In fact, it is simply part of the narrative of Stravinsky’s reconciling his highly individual application of serial technique (which was not a specific influence of either Boulez or Stockhausen, but goes back to Robert Craft “introducing” Igor Fyodorovich to the music of Webern), with the “vibrant physicality” which was always one of the hallmarks of Stravinsky’s work.

Specifically, this paragraph indicates, if anything, Boulez and Stockhausen as “negative exemplars,” for the physicality is found (according to the text) only “spasmodically, if at all” in these works which Stravinsky was known to have heard.
 
Did Stockhausen, Suuuuper Geenius, influence Stravinsky?   If there is evidence, it has not yet surfaced . . . .

Just for the case that months after the mentioned discussion there is still some interest. Lately I accidentally refound the source on which my statement that Stockhausen was an influence on Stravinsky's masterpiece "Agon" was based.

Quote
"It really is in groups," said Stravinsky approvingly of Stockhausen's Gruppen for three orchestras (Memories 118-20 [UK], 112-14 [US]). Along with the wind quintet Zeitmasse, it is a score from which he took a great many ideas in orchestration and form. During the fifties the admiration was mutual: Stockhausen and Boulez both adopted the cimbalom, and Stravinsky's use of the piano in Agon as a bold melody sonority rather than a harmony instrument is one of several features of Gruppen he expressly admires.
(from  Experiencing Stravinsky: A Listener's Companion,Robin Maconie, p.205)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: EigenUser on February 07, 2015, 06:46:36 AM
Thanks for your input, but I was hoping to find a piece of his that goes from typical Stravinsky tension to a conclusion, not a bright-sounding piece that seems to already have found "redemption" on the first note (which is the case with the scherzo and the VC toccata, IMHO). :) (Agon is a bit too serial for me to handle at the moment.)

Yes, that seems quite plausible, cool observation. I wonder, was he the first composer to do that?
Oh. In that case, I would recommend Agon even more, except you say it is too serial (my problem with it at first, too).

Not to harp on Agon, but the way I ended up looking at it was as a 'safe' journey through the often-scary world of serialism. It starts off fairly bright, goes into an austere "Webern Symphony mode", but ends even brighter than it started. Kind of like a haunted house ride at an amusement park. It might be scary at times, but nothing can hurt you :D.

The Firebird.
While I don't really like it, this is definitely a good recommendation based off of what you are looking for.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Ken B on February 07, 2015, 06:59:45 AM
From a Stravinsky newbie like me:

I'm a little frustrated by finding that many of his compositions never find "release".

Most--if not all--his stuff is wonderfully tense, weird and strange, and all those otherworldly chords are awesome. But I find his pieces just race into darkness and disappear rather than resolve/dissolve into something beautifully bright--a conclusion or redemption, if you will. Although I enjoy Stravinsky very much and am constantly gobsmacked by his imagination and skill, I sometimes wish he would have gone that extra mile to create something starting from the ground and going all the way up, so to speak.

Am I nuts or do others feel something similar?

Dumbarton Oaks
Ebony Concerto
Symphony in C
Jeu de Cartes
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Jo498 on February 07, 2015, 09:46:55 AM
Not sure if Firebird already shows what you mean with "Stravinsky-typical tensions". Maybe Petrushka will be a better option.
I support the recs for the symphony in C and the symphony in 3 movements, maybe also the symphony of Psalms but I remember that I was rather puzzled at my first encounter with the latter piece, it's certainly not your typical "praise the lord with harps and cymbals" mood.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: kishnevi on February 07, 2015, 10:14:01 AM
Speaking of Petrushka,  I gave this a first listen last night.  I am not familiar enough with the concertante works to give a valid opinion, but Petrushka was possibly the best performance of that work I have heard to date.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/819-17y3muL._SX522_.jpg)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Jo498 on February 07, 2015, 10:51:45 AM
The three extraits for piano are a quite different thing from the original whole ballet, though... Both are easy to like, I think, compared with a lot of other Stravinsky.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Linus on February 08, 2015, 04:13:39 AM
Oh. In that case, I would recommend Agon even more, except you say it is too serial (my problem with it at first, too).

Not to harp on Agon, but the way I ended up looking at it was as a 'safe' journey through the often-scary world of serialism. It starts off fairly bright, goes into an austere "Webern Symphony mode", but ends even brighter than it started. Kind of like a haunted house ride at an amusement park. It might be scary at times, but nothing can hurt you :D.

Hehe, I'll try to keep that in mind during the journey. :)

The Firebird.

While I don't really like it, this is definitely a good recommendation based off of what you are looking for.

Yes, I somehow forgot about The Firebird! In theory, it really does have that tension-release scheme. Except, just like you, EigenUser, I would have to admit that I don't really like it either. It's like "Stravinsky lite". :-\
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Linus on February 08, 2015, 04:22:00 AM
Dumbarton Oaks
Ebony Concerto
Symphony in C
Jeu de Cartes

Thanks, I'll check these out. Any superior recordings?

Basically, I suppose I'm asking for something impossible: a Stravinsky that explores Hell, then magically turns into Mozart and resolves the argument into perfect consonant harmony. That would have been fantastic. I'm not expecting that, though. ;)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 08, 2015, 08:54:15 AM
That's part of my trouble knowing how to help you, Linus:  I don't think of Igor Fyodorovich as exploring Hell!  :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: North Star on February 08, 2015, 09:01:25 AM
That's part of my trouble knowing how to help you, Linus:  I don't think of Igor Fyodorovich as exploring Hell!  :)
Agreed, and not really even in Danse infernale.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Linus on February 08, 2015, 11:52:05 AM
That's part of my trouble knowing how to help you, Linus:  I don't think of Igor Fyodorovich as exploring Hell!  :)

Ah, that was perhaps a bad use of metaphor. :)

I guess the best way I can describe the overall mood of his music would yet again be "tense".
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: kishnevi on February 08, 2015, 07:46:53 PM
I haven't heard this .. but you should check Pollini's classic recording of it on DG.
One of the greatest recordings in all of classical music that I have ever heard.


I have that, in the Pollini 20th Century box.  But the Chandos recording is of the full ballet.  Bavouzet is present only for the other three works.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: EigenUser on February 09, 2015, 01:07:26 AM
Thanks, I'll check these out. Any superior recordings?

Basically, I suppose I'm asking for something impossible: a Stravinsky that explores Hell, then magically turns into Mozart and resolves the argument into perfect consonant harmony. That would have been fantastic. I'm not expecting that, though. ;)
I think what you're really looking for is Mahler.

Or even (sorry Igor :-X) Schoenberg (pre-12-tone stuff). Have you heard the Chamber Symphony No. 1?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Jo498 on February 09, 2015, 01:15:37 AM
yes, it seems you are looking for something with an aesthetic (basically the romantic per aspera ad astra) that is rather foreign to Stravinsky.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Linus on February 09, 2015, 03:53:11 AM
Well, I'm not really looking for anyone else; I want Stravinsky, because no one writes music quite the way he does, he can't just be replaced. :) But, yes, I would have liked it if he was more of a romantic.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: amw on February 11, 2015, 01:02:20 AM
Basically, I suppose I'm asking for something impossible: a Stravinsky that explores Hell, then magically turns into Mozart and resolves the argument into perfect consonant harmony. That would have been fantastic. I'm not expecting that, though. ;)
Stravinsky really wasn't a happy endings kinda guy, but he does sometimes end on a note that's at least hopeful if not actually optimistic. Try Orpheus for example; the Apothéose is one of the most moving moments in Stravinsky, or music generally. Symphonies of Wind Instruments is another one to try. (Also Symphony in C, one of his darkest and most personal compositions in spite of its neoclassical trappings... but then the end is very ambiguous at best)

For recordings? Naxos series feat. Craft is probably the cheapest and almost certainly the best. Unless it's Rite of Spring or something, start with Craft.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Rons_talking on February 11, 2015, 04:55:03 AM
Stravinsky really wasn't a happy endings kinda guy, but he does sometimes end on a note that's at least hopeful if not actually optimistic. Try Orpheus for example; the Apothéose is one of the most moving moments in Stravinsky, or music generally. Symphonies of Wind Instruments is another one to try. (Also Symphony in C, one of his darkest and most personal compositions in spite of its neoclassical trappings... but then the end is very ambiguous at best)

For recordings? Naxos series feat. Craft is probably the cheapest and almost certainly the best. Unless it's Rite of Spring or something, start with Craft.

Since Stravinsky was a modernist who grew to despise the "immediate past," only The Firebird has  a Hollywood ending after a number of dark moments. You're right about Symphonies: the ending is beautiful. It is one of Stravinsky's "modular works." There is no development in the traditional sense; rather he employs several sections that are only partially related to one another and creates a kind of organization based on discontinuity. He is the master of this form. The succesion of short musical gestures generates excitement due to the work interupting itself. In Symphonies, the last section is diatonic in nature and the warm chorale make for great closure. Petrushka, Les Noces, Agon are other examples of this formal structure.
Besides Firebird, the other "Hell and back" work that has a great ending is Symphony of Psalms . Not that it ever gets very dissonant. Stravinsky's works are unified in terms of musical syntax, as are most composers when writing absolute music. But Linus is operating on the premise that dissonance is unattractive music and consonance is beauty. I can't concure with this understanding, though film scoring seems to assign those values to each cue.
Three of my favorite neoclassical works of Stravinsky are Apollo, Orpheus and Persephone; these are all greek-based and have wonderful endings. You're right about Orpheus, it's a moving and exciting work.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Linus on February 11, 2015, 05:20:27 AM
But Linus is operating on the premise that dissonance is unattractive music and consonance is beauty.

I don't think I do. In this case I'm just interested in consonance as a means for release of tension.

Actually, I find dissonance very attractive indeed; most of my favourite playlists would be unbearable to me otherwise. ;)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Rons_talking on February 11, 2015, 03:09:40 PM
I don't think I do. In this case I'm just interested in consonance as a means for release of tension.

Actually, I find dissonance very attractive indeed; most of my favourite playlists would be unbearable to me otherwise. ;)

I stand corrected. Stravinsky lijkes to manipulate the rhythm to keep even the most simple materials unpredictable. So tension is hard to avoid  ::). But some of the works cited might be the solution to your query.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 11, 2015, 03:49:32 PM
Rhythmic genius.  'Tis true.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: not edward on February 11, 2015, 04:46:12 PM
To paraphrase Grisey: Stravinsky sets down a rhythm, and you think it'll change, but it doesn't. Then when you think it won't change, it does.

Personal experience: I used to not like Stravinsky, but when I went through a period of attempting to compose myself, suddenly the music clicked with me in a big way. And in almost everything I wrote, I unconsciously tried to copy that Stravinskian sense of keeping you off-base rhythmically (except when I wrote in triple time and sounded like bad Webern).
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 11, 2015, 04:48:32 PM
Most interesting, and thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 26, 2015, 10:01:05 AM
Sometimes, I feel that if he had written nothing more than the Symphonies d'instruments à vent, that work alone had made him immortal.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 26, 2015, 10:12:33 AM
Yes!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on March 27, 2015, 06:10:20 AM
Have you seen the short film about the work? 



Highly recommended.

Yeah, I like this documentary and the one on Schoenberg was quite good as well.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Rons_talking on March 29, 2015, 09:53:51 PM
Yeah, I like this documentary and the one on Schoenberg was quite good as well.

I just ordered the DVD. I might even be able to get my wife to watch!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ritter on March 30, 2015, 12:48:59 AM
I must check out that DVD of The Final Chorale. Othe productions in that same series have been very  interesting.

For those who admire the magnificenr Symphonies of wind instruments, the original, partial version for piano is well worth exploring as well. It can be heard on this CD, along with other great music by or in hommage to Debussy:

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on March 30, 2015, 07:27:27 AM
I just ordered the DVD. I might even be able to get my wife to watch!

Very cool. 8) I remember buying this DVD super-cheap for $7.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 02, 2015, 06:49:21 AM
I was suggested to listen to this work:

https://www.youtube.com/v/4MIt-GrZ5F4

One of the first Stravinsky's compositions, much influenced by Impressionism, Debussy and Tchaikovsky, but still prefiguring some melodic softness  and sharp power of evocation of the Firebird. Such a very charming piece, I liked its fairy and persuasive harmonies, its colour, timbric elegance and poetical beauty; but I was very suprised to discover that Stravinsky quoted Wagner's Good Friday Music in the adagio section, as a friend of mine made me notice. :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Moonfish on April 03, 2015, 01:58:20 PM
Has anybody here read Stephen Walsh's two part biography of Stravinsky? Would you recommend them?





Title: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 03, 2015, 02:02:22 PM
I have, and I recommend them highly.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Moonfish on April 03, 2015, 02:10:12 PM
I have, and I recommend them highly.

 :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Moonfish on April 03, 2015, 02:26:06 PM
Hmm, Stravinsky is a much more interesting composer than I had ever imagined. I think I was Le "sacrified" at an early age and steered clear...   :P    So much to catch up on!

I am really enjoying Boulez's performances!

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 03, 2015, 02:57:18 PM
The enthusiasm will seize you!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: NJ Joe on April 03, 2015, 04:46:30 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41jDfWjMWiL.jpg)

Just saw a used copy of this dirt cheap on Amazon and snatched it up.  Greatly looking forward to it.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on April 03, 2015, 08:40:37 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41jDfWjMWiL.jpg)

Just saw a used copy of this dirt cheap on Amazon and snatched it up.  Greatly looking forward to it.

Oh, this is quite good indeed. I love Boulez's earlier Stravinsky performances.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: The new erato on April 03, 2015, 11:28:31 PM
I have, and I recommend them highly.
Seconded by me as well.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Abuelo Igor on April 04, 2015, 04:00:41 AM
I've always been dissatisfied with PB's Chicago remake, which I seem to find somewhat lacking in atmosphere. I usually like Boulez's Stravinsky, but in my opinion that one was kind of a misstep.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on April 04, 2015, 06:43:38 AM
Hmm, Stravinsky is a much more interesting composer than I had ever imagined. I think I was Le "sacrified" at an early age and steered clear...   :P    So much to catch up on!

I am really enjoying Boulez's performances!



He certainly is an interesting composer no question about it. I love his music. Those first ballets: The Firebird, Petrouchka, and Le sacre du printemps kind of helped lay the foundation for his early reputation, but then suddenly he does a 360 and starts writing in a Neoclassical idiom and then later his own take on Serialism. No matter how many 360s he did, he always remained himself with a unique musical persona and bless him for it.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: NJ Joe on April 04, 2015, 07:09:26 AM
I've always been dissatisfied with PB's Chicago remake, which I seem to find somewhat lacking in atmosphere. I usually like Boulez's Stravinsky, but in my opinion that one was kind of a misstep.

Yes, that one has always been kind of hit or miss for me.  I want to like it and sometimes I really do, but other times I'll come away with mixed feelings.

I find this one to be consistently enjoyable:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5180QFZEPGL.jpg)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Moonfish on April 04, 2015, 10:20:15 AM
He certainly is an interesting composer no question about it. I love his music. Those first ballets: The Firebird, Petrouchka, and Le sacre du printemps kind of helped lay the foundation for his early reputation, but then suddenly he does a 360 and starts writing in a Neoclassical idiom and then later his own take on Serialism. No matter how many 360s he did, he always remained himself with a unique musical persona and bless him for it.

Definitely! I think I have had some preconceived notions about Stravinsky's music, but I am now discovering a multifaceted array of works. Very unique, like you so aptly stated in your response.  I have this temptation to jump into one of the mega rite of spring sets, but perhaps I would never be able to recover after such a intensive session?  :laugh:

(http://assets1.classicfm.com/2013/41/composer-insults-stravinsky-1381921438-view-0.jpg)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Moonfish on April 04, 2015, 10:21:15 AM
Seconded by me as well.

Ok! Now I have to read them!   0:)  ;)
Besides, it seems like he lived an interesting life!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Moonfish on April 04, 2015, 11:36:11 AM
Stravinsky:
L'Oiseau de feu
Feu d'artifice
Quatre Etudes pour orchestre

Chicago SO/Boulez


A fantastic L'Oiseau de feu!!!  I understand that Boulez here performed the longer original 1910 version (45 rather than 30 min). I am curious about his earlier recording with NYP (1975). How does it compare?   In this recording Boulez weaves a dreamscape that makes me think about Debussy, hazy forests with drifting fog and countless creatures moving about in an unfolding fairytale drama. A keeper! What is your own favored rendition of L'Oiseau de feu

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on April 04, 2015, 06:21:54 PM
Definitely! I think I have had some preconceived notions about Stravinsky's music, but I am now discovering a multifaceted array of works. Very unique, like you so aptly stated in your response.  I have this temptation to jump into one of the mega rite of spring sets, but perhaps I would never be able to recover after such a intensive session?  :laugh:

(http://assets1.classicfm.com/2013/41/composer-insults-stravinsky-1381921438-view-0.jpg)

Have you given any of his symphonies a listen yet, Peter? All of them are great works. I also recommend Dumbarton Oaks which is a work that never fails to put a smile on my face.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Ken B on April 04, 2015, 07:13:22 PM
Have you given any of his symphonies a listen yet, Peter? All of them are great works. I also recommend Dumbarton Oaks which is a work that never fails to put a smile on my face.

That's my favorite. Also Jeu de Cartes. Symphony in C. Look for the Karajan recording of that!
Igor has been, after Bach and Mozart, my favourite composer over the years (decades).

*grumble grumble* Ravel wrote some good music.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on April 04, 2015, 08:02:00 PM
That's my favorite. Also Jeu de Cartes. Symphony in C. Look for the Karajan recording of that!
Igor has been, after Bach and Mozart, my favourite composer over the years (decades).

*grumble grumble* Ravel wrote some good music.

Honestly, I haven't heard a work by Stravinsky that I didn't at the very least enjoy. Don't think I've heard HvK in Symphony in C. I'll have to try it out at some point. A work I feel is rather neglected is The Fairy's Kiss (Le baiser de la fée). It's a rather oddly structured work, but I don't mean this as a negative of course. There seems to always be a logic and purpose in Stravinsky's music, which I admire greatly.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: NJ Joe on April 05, 2015, 06:04:15 AM
I also recommend Dumbarton Oaks which is a work that never fails to put a smile on my face.

That's my favorite. Also Jeu de Cartes. Symphony in C. Look for the Karajan recording of that!

What they said. Same for The Fairy's Kiss.
I haven't heard HvK in Symphony in C, either.

I have Dutoit for Dumbarton Oaks, Chailly for Jeu de Cartes, and Neeme Jarvi for The Fairy's Kiss.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 27, 2015, 05:16:01 AM
Watched The Final Chorale again last night.  Wonderful that they perform that discarded sketch with the two string instruments!

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 27, 2015, 05:44:48 AM
More and more it is the late works that I listen to the most.  I recently watched a performance of Requiem Canticles on one of the BPO digital concerts and found the work very engaging. 

Aye.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Ken B on April 27, 2015, 01:04:50 PM
Aye.

No crypto-voting! March back over there and show James!
 :laugh:
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Abuelo Igor on April 27, 2015, 02:39:52 PM
More and more it is the late works that I listen to the most.  I recently watched a performance of Requiem Canticles on one of the BPO digital concerts and found the work very engaging.

I've always wondered why Boulez paid so little attention to Stravinsky's late period. I mean, as a young man he notoriously heckled performances of Igor's neoclassical pieces, but he seemed to have no time for the works written once he'd adopted a "historically relevant" idiom. I know there is a recording of "A sermon, a narrative and a prayer" from the Domaine Musical days, but I would have expected Pierre to champion the twelve-tone Stravinsky more assiduously, especially since it is a part of his work that remains underappreciated. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than me could enlighten me as to the reasons behind this phenomenon.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on May 15, 2015, 07:14:00 AM
Must reading : Igor's final interview, uncompleted, appropriately enough, in the NY Review of Books.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/1971/jul/01/stravinsky-the-last-interview/
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ritter on May 15, 2015, 09:28:07 AM
Must reading : Igor's final interview, uncompleted, appropriately enough, in the NY Review of Books.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/1971/jul/01/stravinsky-the-last-interview/
Thanks for posting, ZauberdrachenNr.7. Interesting. I thought the remark on Pli selon pli was from an earlier occasion--and I recall reading in one of the conversation books that Igor Fyodorovich called the Boulez "a piece without balls", but can't for the life of me find that anywhere now  :(. But as always, one gets to wonder how much of this is Stravinsky, how much is Robert Craft  ???.

I've always wondered why Boulez paid so little attention to Stravinsky's late period. I mean, as a young man he notoriously heckled performances of Igor's neoclassical pieces, but he seemed to have no time for the works written once he'd adopted a "historically relevant" idiom. I know there is a recording of "A sermon, a narrative and a prayer" from the Domaine Musical days, but I would have expected Pierre to champion the twelve-tone Stravinsky more assiduously, especially since it is a part of his work that remains underappreciated. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than me could enlighten me as to the reasons behind this phenomenon.
I missed this post by Abuelo Igor, but here is my (belated) two pennies worth.

The relationship between Stravinsky and Boulez must have been a very complex one, characterised I venture to say by mutual admiration and even love, but also mistrust, and a sort of father-son component (but also with Oedipical aspects  ::)). For instance, Jésus Aguila, in his book on the Domaine Musical, points out that the only composer Boulez called a "genius" in any of the program notes he wrote for that concert series over so many years was Igor Fyodorovich. But, Boulez has never hidden his preference for the early, Russian Stravinsky (up to Les Noces, I'd say) and his dislike for the neo-classical (with the exception perhaps of Pulcinella, about which he wrote some very touching words in the program notes for a Stravinsky memorial concert when he was at the helm of the NYPO). This dislike for middle-period Stravinsky came to the forefront when the Boulez groupies (he himself apparently was not in the audience) booed the Danses concertantes and the Four Norwegian moods at a concert led by Manuel Rosenthal in Paris right after WWII (well, I for one can't blame them for disliking the Four Norwegian moods  ;D ). But that is another story...

As far as the serial Stravinsky is concerned, Stephen Walsh (in the second volume, The Second Exile, of his wonderful biography of the Russian composer) sums it up quite cleverly: "It is not the least irony of these late pieces that they were generally rejected by that avant-garde which they seemed primarily designed to please. Fortunately, this is not necessarily any reflection on their intrinsic quality". This statement puts Boulez within the Zeitgeist of the post WW-II avant-garde, but perhaps since Boulez was an increasingly visible conductor from the 60s onwards, his relative  neglect of late Stravinsky was more noticeable. Anyway, it is strking that in the index to the third volume of his writings (Leçons de musique, i.e. the lectures over many years at the Collège de France) not one single late Stravinsky work is mentioned.

As for Boulez's thoughts on late Stravinsky, Walsh quotes a letter to Lawrence Morton in which Boulez says that he finds the "Variations for orchestra less aggravating than Abraham and Isaac", the story of which he found "repellent".  ;D. He then concludes that he "prefers Webern".

In concerts, Boulez did conduct or program late Stravinsky at the Domaine, sometimes triumphantly (the European première of Agon under the composer), sometimes disastrously (the famous Threni incident). There was also the Canticum Sacrum and the Vom Himmel hoch variations (under Robert Craft, I believe).  Jésus Aguila interestingly points out that Boulez was attacked both by the traditionalists and the avant-gardists for bringing Stravinsky to the Domaine. The conservative Bernard Gavoty wrote something to the effect that Stravisnky was being used to lure audiences to the Domaine concerts under false pretenses, while the notoriously fundamentalist Antoine Goléa on the other hand would say that offering these "bad" (late) Stravinsky works in the Salle Pleyel meant that better music could not be offered at the Salle Gaveau.  >:(. It thus cannot be ruled out that some musical Realpolitik had an influence in Boulez's attitude. Yet, even after the Threni fiasco, in his 80th birthday tribute to Stravinsky in 1961--one year early  ::)--, Boulez conducted (along with earlier music) the Three Songs from Shakespeare and In memoriam Dylan Thomas.

One work Boulez has conducted a couple of times at least (and as late as in 1996 with the LAPO, at the Ojai Festival IIRC) is Agon (but, alas, he's never recorded it).

Finally, as far as recordings are concerned, we have the late songs on DG, A Sermon, a narrative and a prayer live from the Théatre des Champs-Elysées on the defunct Montaigne label, The Flood (in German!  :( ) on a Col Legno issue from Munich (Musica Viva series) and then, on a long OOP Stradivarius CD, the "repellent"  ;) Abraham and Isaac (with Scipio Colombo, a well known Scarpia in his day) and the Elegy for J.F.K. with Cathy Berberian, live from Rome in 1965. That's all there is, AFAIK.

(https://www.melomania.com/var/images/disques/biggest/532054.jpg)  (http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/046/MI0001046109.jpg?partner=allrovi.com) (http://www.col-legno.com/pics_db/20084_1_boulez_mv4.jpg) (http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0003/762/MI0003762318.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

EDIT: Since writing this,  I've found out that Boulez did conduct Threni at least once (in Munich, in Karl Amadeus Hartmann's Musica Viva series, in 1959).

SECOND EDIT: A recording of Stravinsky’s Movements for Piano and Orchestra, with Boulez conducting the EIC and no less a figure than Sviatoslav Richter at the keyboard has just been released (live from 1985, I understand).


The disc also includes the Capriccio with the same forces, plus Debussy’s Fantaisie conducted by Barenboim, plus solo pieces  by Rachmaninov and Scriabin.

Un abrazo,
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 15, 2015, 09:58:00 AM
As far as the serial Stravinsky is concerned, Stephen Walsh (in the second volume, The Second Exile, of his wonderful biography of the Russian composer) sums it up quite cleverly: "It is not the least irony of these late pieces that they were generally rejected by that avant-garde which they seemed primarily designed to please. Fortunately, this is not necessarily any reflection on their intrinsic quality". This statement puts Boulez within the Zeitgeist of the post WW-II avant-garde, but perhaps since Boulez was an increasingly visible conductor from the 60s onwards, his relative neglect of late Stravinsky was more noticeable. Anyway, it is strking that in the index to the third volume of his writings (Leçons de musique, i.e. the lectures over many years at the Collège de France) not one single late Stravinsky work is mentioned.

As for Boulez's thoughts on late Stravinsky, Walsh quotes a letter to Lawrence Morton in which Boulez says that he finds the "Variations for orchestra less aggravating than Abraham and Isaac", the story of which he found "repellent".  ;D. He the concludes that he "prefers Webern".

"Their relationship was complicated by the fact that Boulez tended to be an ass"  8)

Seriously, his quarrel with Abraham and Isaac is that he finds the story (an icon of Western civilization) "repellant";  but presumably he never conducted a Wagner opera whose story in any way offended his fastidious sensibilities.  And what bad tone, "You know, I just prefer Webern."

Sometimes I think the key to thinking the best of Boulez, is to know as little as possible about him apart from the music itself . . . .
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: North Star on May 15, 2015, 10:09:45 AM
I see it's time to mention again this quotation from Boulez I read in a comment of a review (http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R203R8J6GZMFD0/ref=cm_cr_dp_cmt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B00BLDHPZS&channel=detail-glance&nodeID=229816&store=music#wasThisHelpful) of the Boulez Complete Works box   8)

Quote from: A. Page
[Boulez] came to give a composer's workshop at the Conservatoire I studied at. I was pleasantly surprised by him.
The first question to him (asked by me) was: " You have been quoted as saying that the idea of a great English composer is a genetic impossibility, are we wasting our time?"

Hilarity and applause ensued. " The only time you seem to be wasting" he replied " is in reading my old interviews."
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 15, 2015, 10:13:32 AM
Well . .. when they're posted afresh on GMG, you know . . . .
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: North Star on May 15, 2015, 10:25:34 AM
Well . .. when they're posted afresh on GMG, you know . . . .
It is too strong a temptation to resist, I know. :)

It's not the lack of Boulez recordings of the late works that bothers me, lamentable as it is, but it's the general disregard for these works.  There are not that many recordings of them, period. 

That's true, but it's not that surprising as the record companies just want to record the early ballets in perpetuum.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ritter on May 15, 2015, 10:27:02 AM
"Their relationship was complicated by the fact that Boulez tended to be an ass"  8)
Thanks for this insightful and well-substantiated contribution to the topic, Karl. A pleasure to read.  8)

Quote
Seriously, his quarrel with Abraham and Isaac is that he finds the story (an icon of Western civilization) "repellant";  but presumably he never conducted a Wagner opera whose story in any way offended his fastidious sensibilities.  And what bad tone, "You know, I just prefer Webern."

Sometimes I think the key to thinking the best of Boulez, is to know as little as possible about him apart from the music itself . . . .
IIRC, Karl, you know the Walsh biography as well, or better than, I do. What Walsh quotes is a private letter to Morton, not an article in Die Reihe or an interview in the Gramophone, or something like that. I suppose even you will admit that Boulez can have his likes and dislikes (musical, biblical, literary or even culinary, for that matter  ;D ). And what Wagner has to do in all this, is beyond my comprehension...

But, rereading my long post above, I now realize anyone would be hard-pressed to find a conductor of his stature (bar Robert Craft, of course) who has conducted more late Stravinsky than Boulez, despite the comparative neglect he's given to this part of Igor's oeuvre. Just take a look at the performance annals of the NYPO or the BBC Proms, for instance.

Cheers,
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 15, 2015, 10:28:03 AM
Thanks for this insightful and well-substantiated contribution to the topic, Karl. A pleasure to read.  8)

Point noted  :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ritter on May 15, 2015, 12:37:59 PM
Here's the short paean to Stravinsky published by Boulez in the program to the NYPO's memorial concert in 1971 (with the Requiem Canticles on the program):

(http://i62.tinypic.com/11ugj2u.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2c0vas.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/33yrfcw.jpg)

It should be noted that the erratum (stemming from the original mansucript  ::) ) that describes Pétrouchka as the piece with an "unusual mixture of vigor, aggressiveness, poetry...", when Boulez is clearly thinking of Pulcinella, was corrected when this text was reproduced in the 2nd volume of Points de repère (Regards sur autrui).
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Abuelo Igor on May 15, 2015, 01:44:01 PM
Wow, ritter, thank you very much. That was a really interesting response to a post I had nearly forgotten.

It's just that I miss recordings of these late pieces, and, well I think that Boulez would have pulled them off really well. I kind of expected something along those lines, since Igor was not very "politically correct" in the Darmstadt years and maybe it was too late for him to be accepted into the fold of the avant-garde once again.

As to recordings of late-period Stravinsky, there's that Oliver Knussen disc on DG that no one has deigned to re-release...
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Rons_talking on May 20, 2015, 03:16:47 AM
I believe there is greatness in quite nearly every Stravinsky work. Though many here are tired of the overplaying of the early ballets (and I sometimes feel the same way) those works created a sound-world so beautiful, so striking, it's difficult to imagine modern music without them. While I've heard The Firebird countless times and rarely play it now, I'll never forget my first hearings of it. To me it was incredible. The use of the orchestra, the harmonies and rhythms...it seemed so monumental yet very human in its use of simple materials brought to life. I'm sure I'm not the first to say this: hearing Stravinskiy's early ballets was like seeing color TV for the first time. Many English majors discuss the great writers of literature and will often omit Shakespeare from the conversation: His greatness is so absolute some feel they can't say anything new. That's my view of the early Stravinsky ballets. Sure, I'd like to hear Agon, Apollo and Symphony of Psalms more often, but there are people out there hearing Petrushka and the Rite for the first time... I see there's no real point to what I'm saying here, but the new (relatively)must, unfortunately compete with the old.
I don't know why but writing this makes me crave Persephone :-X. hmmm...
It's nice that Boulez give a lot of Stravinsky's work his stamp of approval but his name comes up quite often on this thread. Maybe a little too much...but that's another series.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 20, 2015, 03:28:02 AM
I believe there is greatness in quite nearly every Stravinsky work. Though many here are tired of the overplaying of the early ballets (and I sometimes feel the same way) those works created a sound-world so beautiful, so striking, it's difficult to imagine modern music without them. While I've heard The Firebird countless times and rarely play it now, I'll never forget my first hearings of it. To me it was incredible. The use of the orchestra, the harmonies and rhythms...it seemed so monumental yet very human in its use of simple materials brought to life. I'm sure I'm not the first to say this: hearing Stravinskiy's early ballets was like seeing color TV for the first time. Many English majors discuss the great writers of literature and will often omit Shakespeare from the conversation: His greatness is so absolute some feel they can't say anything new. That's my view of the early Stravinsky ballets. Sure, I'd like to hear Agon, Apollo and Symphony of Psalms more often, but there are people out there hearing Petrushka and the Rite for the first time... I see there's no real point to what I'm saying here, but the new (relatively) must, unfortunately compete with the old.
I don't know why but writing this makes me crave Persephone :-X. hmmm...

Hearty agreement;  so much of his work is excellent, and practically every score has its distinct character (yet all bearing his fingerprint).  It's a great problem to have, that there are some many fantastic scores, they vie one with another for our attention.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ritter on August 22, 2015, 11:55:52 AM
Deutsche Grammophon 30 disc box coming ..



(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91Qhg7izt-L._SL1500_.jpg)
I wonder where DG is going to get hold of recordings of some works, for instance Threni (if this is really going to be a "complete" edition). Can they have managed to get the rights to Robert Craft's recording on Koch (which Naxos didn't bother to reissue, and is unobtainable)?

I haven't managed to find a contents listing for this anywhere  :(
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Kamisama on August 22, 2015, 12:53:50 PM
I wonder where DG is going to get hold of recordings of some works, for instance Threni (if this really going to be a "complete" edition). Can they have managed to get the rights to Robert Craft's recording on Koch (which Naxos didn't bother to reissue, and is unobtainable)?

I haven't managed to find a contents listing for this anywhere  :(

Looks like it:
http://umusicdirect.com/classics/*/Box-Sets/Stravinsky-Complete-Edition/4SXT04G6000 (http://umusicdirect.com/classics/*/Box-Sets/Stravinsky-Complete-Edition/4SXT04G6000)
Quote
Threni: id est Lamentationes Jeremiae prophetae
Julie Moffat, soprano / Jennifer Lane, mezzo-soprano / Martyn Hill, 1st tenor / Joseph Cornwell, 2nd tenor, David Wilson-Johnson, 1st bass / Martin Robson, 2nd bass
The Simon Joly Chorale / The Philharmonia / Robert Craft
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ritter on August 22, 2015, 01:06:57 PM
Looks like it:
http://umusicdirect.com/classics/*/Box-Sets/Stravinsky-Complete-Edition/4SXT04G6000 (http://umusicdirect.com/classics/*/Box-Sets/Stravinsky-Complete-Edition/4SXT04G6000)
Thanks, Kamisana  :) ! Despite the duplications (all the stuff conducted by Boulez and Abbado), this appears like a must for me (along with the "Complete Columbia Album Collection" that Papy Oli posted here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11592.msg915914.html#new)). This is going to be a very Stravinskian autumn  ;D ...
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 06, 2015, 04:03:17 AM
Huge news. (http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/sep/06/igor-stravinsky-lost-work-emerges-after-100-years)

This is the Chant funèbre, Op.5 in memoriam Rimsky-Korsakov, whereof the composer wrote (in Chroniques de ma vie):

Quote from: Igor Fyodorovich
The score of this work unfortunately disappeared in Russia during the Revolution. . . . I can no longer remember the music, but I can remember the idea at the root of its conception, which is that all the solo instruments of the orchestra filed past the tomb of the master in succession, each laying down its own melody as its wreath against a deep background of tremolo murmurings simulating the vibrations of bass voices singing in chorus.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ritter on September 06, 2015, 04:28:50 AM
Wonderful news indeed!  :) :) :) :) :) :) Let's hope for a performance (and subsequent recording) soon. I would imagine Gergiev and his St.-Petersburg forces will want to exercise their droit de seigneur on this...
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Kamisama on September 06, 2015, 05:11:53 AM
Wonderful news indeed!  :) :) :) :) :) :) Let's hope for a performance (and subsequent recording) soon. I would imagine Gergiev and his St.-Petersburg forces will want to exercise their droit de seigneur on this...

Quote
An important early orchestral work by one of the greatest composers of the 20th century, thought for more than 100 years to have been irretrievably lost, has turned up at last in a pile of old manuscripts in a back room of the St Petersburg Conservatoire. Igor Stravinsky composed his Pogrebal'naya Pesnya in memory of his teacher, Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov, shortly after Rimsky's death in June 1908.

Not so wonderful for the compilers of that new Stravinsky Complete Edition box....
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: North Star on September 06, 2015, 05:27:40 AM
Not so wonderful for the compilers of that new Stravinsky Complete Edition box....
:laugh:
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ritter on November 15, 2015, 02:48:02 AM
North Star alerted us about the passing of Robert Craft (whcih has really not been noticed much in the press  :-[ ).

Robert Lawson Craft passed away on Tuesday, November 10th, 2015. He is survived by his wife, Alva Craft and his son, Alexander Craft. He was a renowned author, esteemed orchestra conductor, protege of Igor Stravinsky and a resident of Gulf Stream, Florida.

Published in Sun-Sentinel from Nov. 13 to Nov. 14, 2015 (http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/sunsentinel/obituary.aspx?n=Robert-Lawson-Craft&pid=176477251)

Now the New York Times publishes an obituary: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/15/arts/music/robert-craft-stravinsky-adviser-and-steward-dies-at-92.html?_r=0

Even if not devoid of controversy, Craft's work as writer and conductor deserves higher recognition than it receives these days IMHO. For those of us who love Stravinsky, the name Robert Craft has accompanied us for many years, and I for one will always remain grateful to him for some very interesting books and some wonderful recordings... Rest in peace.

Sony, are you there? It's time for a Craft box with his Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, Varèse et al...
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: North Star on November 15, 2015, 03:00:44 AM
North Star alerted us about the passing of Robert Craft (whcih has really not been noticed much in the press  :-[ ).

Now the New York Times publishes an obituary: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/15/arts/music/robert-craft-stravinsky-adviser-and-steward-dies-at-92.html?_r=0

Even if not devoid of controversy, Craft's work as writer and conductor deserves higher recognition than it receives these days IMHO. For those of us who love Stravinsky, the name Robert Craft has accompanied us for many years, and I for one will always remain grateful to him for some very interesting books and some wonderful recordings... Rest in peace.

Sony, are you there? It's time for a Craft box with his Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, Varèse et al...
I merely posted that obit; the rumors of his death were reported well before.
There have been some rumors that the great Robert Craft, Stravinsky's assistant for his last years in California, died a few days ago. Does anybody know?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ritter on November 15, 2015, 03:07:29 AM
I merely posted that obit; the rumors of his death were reported well before.
Sorry, saw your post and not what came before it...credit to (poco) Sforzando then  ;)

Have a good day, Karlo! Starting off with some Les Six, I see  :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: North Star on November 15, 2015, 03:16:49 AM
Sorry, saw your post and not what came before it...credit to (poco) Sforzando then  ;)

Have a good day, Karlo! Starting off with some Les Six, I see  :)
I get my kicks with Les Six... G'day, Rafael.
Title: Igor Stravinsky (1882-1971)
Post by: Scion7 on May 15, 2016, 06:39:24 PM
Besides his great work as a composer, I admire his conducting of his own pieces.
For example, this stereo 1960 recording:

(https://img.discogs.com/HfHtmU4LAojAzwWUJZwg3JjR5qU=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-7786773-1448750268-6873.gif.jpg)

His own version of the Dumbarton Oaks Concerto is zippier than any other.
Thankfully, a re-issue took his pus off the original 1965 LP cover with something more aesthetically pleasing:

(https://img.discogs.com/YsiK6UpFCN13jql2_a15f2xKfds=/fit-in/567x561/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-8171785-1456495390-7988.gif.jpg)

Title: Igor Stravinsky (1882-1971)
Post by: Scion7 on May 15, 2016, 07:50:18 PM
Another nice re-issue of the stereo 1958 recording by Stokowski & Berlin Philharmonic:

(http://s32.postimg.org/bsr409k0l/1958_Firebird_Petrushka_LP.jpg)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ritter on June 01, 2016, 01:23:17 PM
Cross-posted from the WAYLTN thread:

Back home in Madrid, first listen to this new acquisition:


This rendition of Threni: id est Lamentationes Jeremiae Prophetaeis turning out to be as good as I expected (or even better). Is this the recording this piece so badly needed? I'd say the answer is a resounding "yes!". It clearly is devilishly difficult to perfom, but the soloists, orchestra and, most particularly, the marvelous chorus deliver this with perfect pitch and rythmic accuracy, areas in which the two previous readily available recordings--Stravinsky on Columbia/Sony and Robert Craft on Koch (now in the big DG box) were wanting. The music flows very naturally and transaprently, and this is clearly  Philippe Herreweghe's doing. The notion that this composition fits into a polyphonic choral traditon that stretches back to the renaissance is realized to the full, and there's nothing "arid" or "thorny" here. Highly recommended!!!! The other works on the disc will have to wait until tomorrow, as it's past midnight already...
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 01, 2016, 01:40:21 PM
Thanks, although my wallet does not thank you  ;)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on June 03, 2016, 07:22:14 PM
Thanks, although my wallet does not thank you  ;)

Just listening to Columbia 'Threni'. Oy, such dry and arid ... it was like swallowing a horse pill?! That Herreweghe looks delicious, no?$$$ :'(
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: The new erato on June 03, 2016, 09:16:01 PM
Just listening to Columbia 'Threni'. Oy, such dry and arid ...
I like dry and arid in late Stravinsky. This isn't music meant to seduce.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 18, 2016, 09:15:18 AM
For Entertainment Purposes Only

Almost by accident, I ran across a review of my own at Amazon, of Vol. IX of the Craft/Stravinsky series:

Quote
This entire disc is a pleasure to listen to, though admirers of the Firebird should be warned that the Variations in memoriam Aldous Huxley (the latest work on the disc) are stylistically a wide leap from the Dukas-flavored Feu d'artifice (the earliest). Everything is competently and musically presented; and the stylistic variety only underscores the tour-de-force. The Concerto in D for strings, particularly, used to be one of the odd works in the Stravinsky catalogue which left me inexplicably cold; Craft's recording here brought the piece to life for me.

I've always love the complete Firebird, I've never understood how the concert world could for so long have insisted on presenting this work only in its abbreviated Suite (though, to be fair, the Suite is for a slightly smaller orchestra; not many community orchestras, for example, can trot out two contrabassoons and three harps). Much of the ballet which did not "make the cut" of the Suite, is of a more Romantic vein more readily linked to Stravinsky's teacher, Rimsky-Korsakov; the whole work is nonetheless completely Stravinsky -- indeed, the work is much more closely motivic and 'cellular' than Rimsky-Korsakov, which is apparent on hearing the ballet in its entirety. This, apart from the plain logic that the complete ballet has an entire dramatic sequence which sets up the vigorous Danse infernale, which, separated from that context, comes out of nowhere in the Suite. Craft does a great job with the whole work; there was a time when I had never suspected Craft to be capable of making such a sumptuous sound with the Firebird.

The brief Canon, on the Russian folk tune quoted in the finale of the Firebird, is written in a bright brassy mode which recalls the Symphony in Three Movements. It makes a colorful little "encore" to follow the ballet. This is a fabulous disc.

Having a new Ur-text ought theoretically to mean, all the corrections have already been baked in. But this is a rich score, and while the Suites have gotten lots of play over the years, perhaps the full ballet has been a little unfairly insulated from the need for rapid correction, through its comparative (and undeserved) neglect for so long. The Craft recording here is therefore not only (and, naturally, most importantly) a glowing rendition of a shimmering score; but his liner notes are informative, detailed, and include a list of selected errata for the new Ur-text. Some of these are cosmetic, Augenmusik matters (the relative placement of the piano and harp on page 31, e.g.), but largely these are entirely useful pointers: the Ur-text neglects to mark the trumpets con sordino (muted) for their first entrance in measure 8, e.g..

One question I have, which may not have made Craft's necessarily incomplete errata list, since it is, simply, something one hears perfectly clearly (as opposed to subtleties such as the six bars to be struck from the violas on a certain page, for which the guidance is crucial) ... in the Finale, at the end of measures 1282 & 1284 (that is, the partial-measures immediately before rehearsal marks 207 & 208), there are aggressive crescendi driven by the timpani ... an exciting effect, but it isn't in the score, and I should be curious where it comes from in the sources.

Craft writes of restoring to the Finale (indeed, claims that this is the first recording to include this) two on-stage trumpets which play a sustained perfect fifth against the rhythmically-punched-out tune (the passage which, in retrospect, Aaron Copland spent so much effort imitating) for the few measures when it is in C major. My slightly mischievous quibble here is, that actually there are three on-stage trumpets, though (to be fair) not in the specific bars Craft referred to. But the score does have the three playing octave (concert) B's against the immense chorale in the rest of the brass at the close; and the three on-stage trumpets also figure in the chirpy tritones of Daybreak.

All this is really in gratitude to Craft, for this marvelous recording of his has really been the occasion to get to know this wonderful score much better.

One instance in which I take respectful but firm exception to Craft is, I entirely disagree that the music of the Firebird's supplication (begging Ivan Tserevich to release her) is at all "too long"; I think this comment is a sort of aesthetic retrofit. In the light of Stravinsky's subsequent career, his ballets tended to be more focused, "leaner"; but this does not imply that the more relaxed, expansive time-frame reflected in the Firebird is perforce "flabby" - not at all.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: North Star on August 18, 2016, 09:29:07 AM
I should have read more than just the italicized bit... I was nearing the end of the review, wondering what's so bloody amusing about the review.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 18, 2016, 09:31:50 AM
I should have read more than just the italicized bit... I was nearing the end of the review, wondering what's so bloody amusing about the review.  :laugh:

Hah!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 18, 2016, 09:32:06 AM
(Imagine my relief . . . .)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Monsieur Croche on August 19, 2016, 01:01:46 PM
Some called him Bilbo . . . .

That certainly has a nice ring to it.

And its engraved!
Title: Stravinsky "Funeral Song": first performance since 1909
Post by: Brewski on November 21, 2016, 08:55:22 AM
On Dec. 2, Valery Gergiev and the Mariinsky Orchestra will give the first performance of Funeral Song (1909, op. 5) in 107 years in St. Petersburg. Apparently the orchestral parts were discovered used to reconstruct the 12-minute score.

Boosey & Hawkes' press release here:

http://www.boosey.com/cr/news/Stravinsky-s-rediscovered-Funeral-Song-restored-to-life-in-St-Petersburg/100911

--Bruce

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 21, 2016, 08:57:33 AM
On Dec. 2, Valery Gergiev and the Mariinsky Orchestra will give the first performance of Funeral Song (1909, op. 5) in 107 years in St. Petersburg. Apparently the orchestral parts were discovered used to reconstruct the 12-minute score.

Boosey & Hawkes' press release here:

http://www.boosey.com/cr/news/Stravinsky-s-rediscovered-Funeral-Song-restored-to-life-in-St-Petersburg/100911

--Bruce

Cool.
Title: Re: Stravinsky "Funeral Song": first performance since 1909
Post by: Mahlerian on November 21, 2016, 09:19:31 AM
On Dec. 2, Valery Gergiev and the Mariinsky Orchestra will give the first performance of Funeral Song (1909, op. 5) in 107 years in St. Petersburg. Apparently the orchestral parts were discovered used to reconstruct the 12-minute score.

Boosey & Hawkes' press release here:

http://www.boosey.com/cr/news/Stravinsky-s-rediscovered-Funeral-Song-restored-to-life-in-St-Petersburg/100911

--Bruce

Finally, we get to hear it.  Why did it take a year to copy, make parts, and schedule a performance?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on November 22, 2016, 06:03:19 PM
On Dec. 2, Valery Gergiev and the Mariinsky Orchestra will give the first performance of Funeral Song (1909, op. 5) in 107 years in St. Petersburg. Apparently the orchestral parts were discovered used to reconstruct the 12-minute score.

Boosey & Hawkes' press release here:

http://www.boosey.com/cr/news/Stravinsky-s-rediscovered-Funeral-Song-restored-to-life-in-St-Petersburg/100911

--Bruce


I just found out about this via a post on facebook from one of the radio stations I listen to. Really looking forward to hearing it!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky SOLO PIANO MUSIC ESSENTIALS ??? ???
Post by: snyprrr on November 25, 2016, 12:08:13 PM
ANOTHER 2 pAGE pOST dELETED BY an errant finger- oh, the furious rage >:D >:D >:D >:D


Anyhow-


Interested in:

'Le Savre'====== Fazil Say on Teldec... what could go wrong???


just ordered Peter Serkin Sonata and Serenade


have Sahk/Gavrlv Concerto 2P,.... wondering about Sonata 2P.....





furious rage over finger flubbing deletion, aaaarrrrggghh- not the patience to b wryterrr
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky SOLO PIANO MUSIC ESSENTIALS ??? ???
Post by: snyprrr on November 26, 2016, 05:09:20 PM
ANOTHER 2 pAGE pOST dELETED BY an errant finger- oh, the furious rage >:D >:D >:D >:D


Anyhow-


Interested in:

'Le Savre'====== Fazil Say on Teldec... what could go wrong???


just ordered Peter Serkin Sonata and Serenade


have Sahk/Gavrlv Concerto 2P,.... wondering about Sonata 2P.....





furious rage over finger flubbing deletion, aaaarrrrggghh- not the patience to b wryterrr

Well, neither the Serenade nor the Sonata, by Serkin, did much for me- though, the central 'Adagietto' on the latter had a nice, lattice-like quality. I thought they were more highly ranked, but, frankly, these two pieces seem as minor as a lot of the other Piano Music. There was an enjoyable, museum-like quality to the Serkin recording.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: James on November 26, 2016, 05:18:40 PM
Pollini's 3 Mvts from Petrushka on DG is an essential solo piano recording. Quite frankly, it's one of the greatest recordings in all of classical music. A real jaw dropper. You probably have heard it.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on November 26, 2016, 06:05:01 PM
Pollini's 3 Mvts from Petrushka on DG is an essential solo piano recording. Quite frankly, it's one of the greatest recordings in all of classical music. A real jaw dropper. You probably have heard it.
I've heard it. :D
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on November 27, 2016, 07:24:05 AM
Pollini's 3 Mvts from Petrushka on DG is an essential solo piano recording. Quite frankly, it's one of the greatest recordings in all of classical music. A real jaw dropper. You probably have heard it.

LOL, yea, I have it here... I'll take it with me today (as if I DIDN'T have it... oh, the humiliation!! :-*)

I've heard it. :D

 :P :P :P
 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 :P :P :P
 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky WISHBONE ASH, BABY ;)
Post by: snyprrr on November 27, 2016, 06:11:59 PM
Pollini's 3 Mvts from Petrushka on DG is an essential solo piano recording. Quite frankly, it's one of the greatest recordings in all of classical music. A real jaw dropper. You probably have heard it.
urvey

But... it was Pollini's fingers that I was impressed  by. The music - as Piano Music- did remind me of "paraphrase city", meaning, it wasn't an original Piano Idea... which is why I left the ballets out of my Piano Survey (for now). I wanted to know what Iggy's "True Piano Music" inspiration would be- I believe it's the Concerto and Sonata for 2 Pianos, though, the Sonata itself has that "original Neo-Classic" sound.

But yea, Pollini's insane in the brain, insane puppet music, no doubt, whether for piano, or not. Pollini's fingers in those fast flourishes are really terrifying, such an attack!





Don't suppose I'd like 'Persephone'? Maybe I can't get Wishbone Ash out of my head.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky WISHBONE ASH, BABY ;)
Post by: James on November 27, 2016, 06:59:40 PM
urvey

But... it was Pollini's fingers that I was impressed  by. The music - as Piano Music- did remind me of "paraphrase city", meaning, it wasn't an original Piano Idea... which is why I left the ballets out of my Piano Survey (for now). I wanted to know what Iggy's "True Piano Music" inspiration would be- I believe it's the Concerto and Sonata for 2 Pianos, though, the Sonata itself has that "original Neo-Classic" sound.

But yea, Pollini's insane in the brain, insane puppet music, no doubt, whether for piano, or not. Pollini's fingers in those fast flourishes are really terrifying, such an attack!

Don't suppose I'd like 'Persephone'? Maybe I can't get Wishbone Ash out of my head.

Stravinsky's use of the instrument is more about 'the bones' that anything fancy from a pianistic standpoint. I like all of it.

I have Martin Jones's survey on Nimbus .. which is pretty serviceable. He doesn't compare to Pollini's technical polish/control on the rhythmically insane stuff ..

2 recent surveys I have to check out sooner or later are Jennifer Lin and Giacomo Franci ... should be some good stuff there, check Amazon.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky WISHBONE ASH, BABY ;)
Post by: James on November 28, 2016, 04:05:16 AM
I believe it's the Concerto and Sonata for 2 Pianos, though

There is a fine recording of these by Benjamin Frith & Messiaen specialist Peter Hill on Naxos.

Also on DG,  Stockhausen specialists Alfons & Aloys Kontarsky coupled with Bartok's bonafide masterwork. Haven't heard this one yet.

I'll have to dig through my big Stravinsky box again, there are performances of some of the piano pieces by the Igor himself.

I wish Gould recorded some of these .. or even Russian pianist Sviatoslav Richter. Oh well.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky WISHBONE ASH, BABY ;)
Post by: snyprrr on November 28, 2016, 06:41:49 AM
Stravinsky's use of the instrument is more about 'the bones' that anything fancy from a pianistic standpoint. I like all of it.

I have Martin Jones's survey on Nimbus .. which is pretty serviceable. He doesn't compare to Pollini's technical polish/control on the rhythmically insane stuff ..

2 recent surveys I have to check out sooner or later are Jennifer Lin and Giacomo Franci ... should be some good stuff there, check Amazon.


Check out Jenny Lin's 'The Eleventh Finger', Kampela, Ligeti, Gervasoni, Tenny, Sharp, Vivier....
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky WISHBONE ASH, BABY ;)
Post by: James on November 28, 2016, 03:13:35 PM
Check out Jenny Lin's 'The Eleventh Finger', Kampela, Ligeti, Gervasoni, Tenny, Sharp, Vivier....

With the exception of Ligeti, I have no interest in those composers. Found these .. (great music)

https://www.youtube.com/v/T376ywJa2Oo

https://www.youtube.com/v/3C1PueA1WvM
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky WISHBONE ASH, BABY ;)
Post by: snyprrr on November 29, 2016, 07:38:34 PM
With the exception of Ligeti, I have no interest in those composers. Found these .. (great music)

https://www.youtube.com/v/T376ywJa2Oo

https://www.youtube.com/v/3C1PueA1WvM

wow, look at Jenny Lin's pinky!! a mind of its own!!! wow
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 30, 2016, 09:28:49 AM
Well, only the music that James is interested in is great music, that is clear.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky WISHBONE ASH, BABY ;)
Post by: Drasko on November 30, 2016, 09:39:11 AM
.. or even Russian pianist Sviatoslav Richter. Oh well.

Concerto for 2 Pianos
with Vassili Lobanov (Tours, 7 July 1985) on Philips 420157 (CD)

Movements for Piano and Orchestra
with Yuri Nikolayevsky, Orchestra of the Moscow State Conservatoire
(22 December 1984) on Revelation RV 10093 (CD)

Piano Rag Music
(Vienna, 20 Feb 1989) on Decca / London 436451 (CD) or 458807 (CD)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky WISHBONE ASH, BABY ;)
Post by: Spineur on November 30, 2016, 10:01:49 AM
Concerto for 2 Pianos
with Vassili Lobanov (Tours, 7 July 1985) on Philips 420157 (CD)

Movements for Piano and Orchestra
with Yuri Nikolayevsky, Orchestra of the Moscow State Conservatoire
(22 December 1984) on Revelation RV 10093 (CD)

Piano Rag Music
(Vienna, 20 Feb 1989) on Decca / London 436451 (CD) or 458807 (CD)

I agree with James, Stravinsky does not write idiomatic piano pieces.  Interesting nevertheless.
Listening to the concerto for 2 pianos, 5 easy pieces (2 pianos), Three easy pieces (4 hands), Les cinq doigts, Ragtime, Valse des fleurs and Tango by the Labèque sisters from this box
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky WISHBONE ASH, BABY ;)
Post by: snyprrr on November 30, 2016, 04:31:56 PM
I agree with James,

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE???!!!???
Title: "Funeral Song" live-streamed on Friday, 2:00pm
Post by: Brewski on December 01, 2016, 01:39:10 PM
On Dec. 2, Valery Gergiev and the Mariinsky Orchestra will give the first performance of Funeral Song (1909, op. 5) in 107 years in St. Petersburg. Apparently the orchestral parts were discovered used to reconstruct the 12-minute score.

Boosey & Hawkes' press release here:

http://www.boosey.com/cr/news/Stravinsky-s-rediscovered-Funeral-Song-restored-to-life-in-St-Petersburg/100911

--Bruce

A reminder for those interested, Funeral Song will be live-streamed tomorrow at 2:00 (EDT) on medici.tv, with Valery Gergiev and the Mariinsky Orchestra. Also on the program:

Rimsky-Korsakov: Suite from The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevroniya (this should be great, too)
Stravinsky: The Firebird

Watch here:

http://www.medici.tv/#!/valery-gergiev-stravinsky-chant-funebre

--Bruce
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 02, 2016, 09:41:02 AM


Classical CD Of The Week: Scandals Once Upon A Time

(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2016/12/Forbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_DG_Scandale_Tristano-Ott_Stravinsky_Laurson_1200-1200x469.jpg?width=960)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/12/01/classical-cd-of-the-week-scandals-once-upon-a-time/#60fe57256973 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/12/01/classical-cd-of-the-week-scandals-once-upon-a-time/#60fe57256973)

Title: Re: "Funeral Song" live-streamed on Friday, 2:00pm
Post by: Brewski on December 02, 2016, 12:41:16 PM
A reminder for those interested, Funeral Song will be live-streamed tomorrow at 2:00 (EDT) on medici.tv, with Valery Gergiev and the Mariinsky Orchestra. Also on the program:

Rimsky-Korsakov: Suite from The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevroniya (this should be great, too)
Stravinsky: The Firebird

Watch here:

http://www.medici.tv/#!/valery-gergiev-stravinsky-chant-funebre

--Bruce

Just finished watching the resurrected Funeral Song, Op. 5, and mostly enjoyed it, though perhaps it's not the composer's best work -- a little unfocused, at least, on first hearing. Parts sound very Debussy-esque, and the title might lead one to expect something more somber. It feels more like a rhapsody for orchestra. Nevertheless, it probably deserves to be heard more often than every 107 years! Gergiev and the Mariinsky crew sounded terrific, and the audio and video from medici.tv were up to their typically high standards.

The entire concert (Firebird on now) will probably be available for viewing for a few weeks or months.

--Bruce
Title: Re: "Funeral Song" live-streamed on Friday, 2:00pm
Post by: Mahlerian on December 02, 2016, 01:13:05 PM
Just finished watching the resurrected Funeral Song, Op. 5, and mostly enjoyed it, though perhaps it's not the composer's best work -- a little unfocused, at least, on first hearing. Parts sound very Debussy-esque, and the title might lead one to expect something more somber. It feels more like a rhapsody for orchestra. Nevertheless, it probably deserves to be heard more often than every 107 years! Gergiev and the Mariinsky crew sounded terrific, and the audio and video from medici.tv were up to their typically high standards.

The entire concert (Firebird on now) will probably be available for viewing for a few weeks or months.

--Bruce

Having heard it not long after listening to his earliest published works, I can say that the piece certainly marks a step forward in Stravinsky's command of orchestral timbre and harmonic material, though there are still the odd Wagnerisms (I was thinking a lot of Siegfried's Funeral with those chromatic string lines).  I'll certainly want to listen again when more conductors start to take up the score next year, though Gergiev seemed to do quite well both here and in the luxuriant reading of Firebird that followed.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Brewski on December 02, 2016, 01:16:35 PM
I should do exactly that: listen to the even-earlier pieces and then revisit this one -- excellent idea. (Also, I hope a recording will be forthcoming.) And yes, The Firebird was gorgeous -- when these forces are "on," they do it like no one else -- and I also very much enjoyed the Rimsky-Korsakov suite that opened the concert.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Spineur on December 02, 2016, 01:35:45 PM
-- and I also very much enjoyed the Rimsky-Korsakov suite that opened the concert.

--Bruce
I found the comparison between the orchestration of Rimsky City of Kitezh suite and Stravinsky Funeral songs quite interesting.  After all it was composed to honor his teacher for his funeral.  The "timbre" sound similar, but Stravinsky is so much more rythmic.  Even more so in the ensuing Firebird.

Anyway this is my impression of the moment.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky WISHBONE ASH, BABY ;)
Post by: James on December 02, 2016, 02:50:27 PM
Concerto for 2 Pianos
with Vassili Lobanov (Tours, 7 July 1985) on Philips 420157 (CD)

Movements for Piano and Orchestra
with Yuri Nikolayevsky, Orchestra of the Moscow State Conservatoire
(22 December 1984) on Revelation RV 10093 (CD)

Piano Rag Music
(Vienna, 20 Feb 1989) on Decca / London 436451 (CD) or 458807 (CD)


Thx for this .. I have 2 'Movements' performances with him, the one you list, and a really special one with Boulez conducting - really great.
Piano certainly isn't center stage here though, more outlining things.

I was thinking more of the solo piano stuff, Richter would have been great with it .. wish there was a lot more.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on December 03, 2016, 12:02:39 AM
Who saw/heard Funeral Song op. 5 and what did you think? :)

Really lovely work I think!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on December 03, 2016, 06:20:02 AM
Who saw/heard Funeral Song op. 5 and what did you think? :)

Really lovely work I think!

It was okay. Nothing really special.
Title: Re: Contemplating on a right and the spring of heaviness
Post by: Mahlerian on December 12, 2016, 09:02:42 PM
Why is it that the general view is that Le Sacre was just a one off that he turned his back against?

I hear Le Sacre in Petrushka (Pre-rite I know), Song of the nightingale, Agon, Variations for Huxley, Symphonies of wind instruments and parts of Requiem Canticles, especially  ::)

And Symphony in Three Movements, parts of Threni...

Far from disowning the work, he absorbed all of the lessons he learned from it.  While he never did something that was quite in the same vein throughout, there are certainly echoes of the work throughout his later career.

My comparison is with Schoenberg's Pierrot lunaire.  Also wildly successful and a work that was much-admired and much-imitated by contemporaries (including Stravinsky), but one which the composer never tried to replicate by way of duplication.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky PERSEPHONE
Post by: snyprrr on January 12, 2017, 03:32:24 PM
Persephone

First Listen Ever: Liked it from the get-go! ;)


Hey, I didn't really take to 'Oedipus Rex' (S ;)lonen)... I had been hoping for that "icy" Igor, but I just didn't get what I thought I was going to get there, so I hesitated about a decade with 'Persephone'.

BUT!!

The French helped for me. And the music was the "right" Igor I was looking for, sounding more like 'Orpheus' than 'Le Sa ;)re'.





Anyhow... Davis looks like TopChoice?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky PERSEPHONE
Post by: snyprrr on January 12, 2017, 05:26:29 PM
Persephone

First Listen Ever: Liked it from the get-go! ;)


Hey, I didn't really take to 'Oedipus Rex' (S ;)lonen)... I had been hoping for that "icy" Igor, but I just didn't get what I thought I was going to get there, so I hesitated about a decade with 'Persephone'.

BUT!!

The French helped for me. And the music was the "right" Igor I was looking for, sounding more like 'Orpheus' than 'Le Sa ;)re'.





Anyhow... Davis looks like TopChoice?

anyone? Persephone...
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky PERSEPHONE
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 12, 2017, 05:29:22 PM


Persephone

First Listen Ever: Liked it from the get-go! ;)

Good!

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky PERSEPHONE
Post by: Mahlerian on January 12, 2017, 06:45:16 PM
anyone? Persephone...

Not my favorite, but I'll get to it soon in my chronological traversal, and we'll see how my view has changed.  The music is okay, very pretty, but it lacks the verve of the other Neoclassical works, I feel.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Scion7 on January 13, 2017, 01:22:40 AM
another link:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdiyCf7RdyI
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky PERSEPHONE
Post by: snyprrr on January 13, 2017, 07:43:18 AM
Not my favorite, but I'll get to it soon in my chronological traversal, and we'll see how my view has changed.  The music is okay, very pretty, but it lacks the verve of the other Neoclassical works, I feel.

And here I was thinking it was a little mooore verve-y ;D
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 26, 2017, 07:18:52 AM
Stravinsky Ballet of the Week -

Jeu de cartes

(https://soulinteraction.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/12-183086-playing-cards.jpg)

Jeu de Cartes (The Card Game) is cleverly described as a ballet in three deals. Completed in 1936 for the newly formed American Ballet, whose choreographer was the young George Balanchine, the scenario deals with the game of poker, one of Stravinsky's favorite card games. The main character is the deceitful Joker, who fashions himself unbeatable, owing to his chameleonic ability to become any card. There are also other cards -- Queens, Aces -- and several card players portrayed in the ballet.

In the first two deals, the all-confident Joker dominates the proceedings, even if he does not always win. In the final deal, however, he is vanquished by a royal flush, ending his menace. Though the music is generally light, it clearly has a satirical side and the devious Joker is viewed by some to represent evil, perhaps the devil. Because of the growing tensions in Europe and the rise of Nazism during the time of its composition, many have also seen the ballet as a sort of allegory of the developing strife.

Jeu de Cartes contains several allusions to the works of other composers, a not atypical trait in much of Stravinsky's music. The second deal contains several notable instances: the first variation is related to the opening of the second movement of Beethoven's Symphony No. 8, and the fourth variation recalls Strauss' Die Fledermaus. In the Third Deal, Rossini's The Barber of Seville Overture is practically quoted. There are more than a few additional snippets from the music of other composers sprinkled throughout the score, including that of Tchaikovsky, Ravel, Delibes, and even from Stravinsky himself (the Violin Concerto, Mavra, and other works). But the main theme of the ballet, heard at the outset of each movement, may be the most remarkable appropriation since it appears to be a reworking or slightly veiled rendition of the famous "Fate" motto from Beethoven's Symphony No. 5. Near the end of the ballet, in fact, it appears almost unaltered from its form in the Beethoven symphony.

After the opening of the First Deal, the music becomes subdued and the work's episodic nature becomes apparent as a variety of inventive sequences and thematic ideas follow. Before the end of this deal the music works into a near-frenzy, then subsides once more.

After the work's main theme is stated at the outset of the Second Deal, the music retreats to a generally calm mood, then becomes more animated as the series of variations progresses. The Third Deal features the theme at the outset, after which the music never relaxes. A Ravelian waltz and the Rossini quotation suggest fun and satire, but also perhaps the deceptions of the Joker. Near the end, the "Fate" motif appears on the horns, then the oboes. The music concludes with the main theme asserting itself, but neither triumphantly nor jovially.

It should be noted that the quotations and allusions sound very much like Stravinsky, never like a reworking of the source music as the composer did in his ballet Pulcinella, fashioned from several works of Pergolesi. Jeu de Cartes is very much in the tradition of the composer's neo-Classical style, full of wit and brilliant orchestration.

A concert performance of the music typically lasts nearly 25 minutes. The composer conducted the first performance of the ballet, which took place at the Metropolitan Opera House in New York City on April 27, 1937.

[Article taken from All Music Guide]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Like all Stravinsky ballets, this is an utterly fascinating work. I imagine the choreography would be something to behold considering the dancers are dressed like cards. Anyway, this ballet is full of cheeky fun and I love it. I figured it'd start a series of articles on Stravinsky's ballets. I urge everyone to listen to Jeu de cartes and let me know what you think. Any favorite performances?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky PERSEPHONE
Post by: Rons_talking on February 27, 2017, 05:28:59 AM
anyone? Persephone...

While I find the narration distracting at times, the music of Persephone is stunning. Not too dry but lyrical, warm and playful. Sadly, it seems neglected and is unknown to many. To me, it's right up there with Apollo as a great work of his neoclassic years.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 27, 2017, 05:37:40 AM
Aye, Perséphone is a beauty.

The latest Stravinsky I've listened to was the Ogdon/ASMitF/Marriner account of the Capriccio.  Arguably a minor, even BAU work, but really great fun.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Drasko on February 27, 2017, 06:14:17 AM
Aye, Perséphone is a beauty.

The latest Stravinsky I've listened to was the Ogdon/ASMitF/Marriner account of the Capriccio.  Arguably a minor, even BAU work, but really great fun.

Indeed a beauty. I love Persephone, but it's one of those pieces I love only in specific performances.
Those few disparate elements (narrator, tenor, chorus) really have to come together and only Stravinsky's own and Andrew Davis' recordings click for me, Tilson Thomas and Nagano don't, for instance. I've yet to see Currentzis, choreographed on DVD.

I love Capriccio as well, but never can disassociate it from Balanchine's choreography (Rubies):

https://www.youtube.com/v/51JELveLPkg
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 27, 2017, 06:26:27 AM
Indeed a beauty. I love Persephone, but it's one of those pieces I love only in specific performances.
Those few disparate elements (narrator, tenor, chorus) really have to come together and only Stravinsky's own and Andrew Davis' recordings click for me, Tilson Thomas and Nagano don't, for instance. I've yet to see Currentzis, choreographed on DVD.

I think I have lucked out, then, as I have only heard Stravinsky’s own and Andrew Davis’  8)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Drasko on February 27, 2017, 06:38:42 AM
... and Currentzis conducted staged performance from Teatro Real is complete, with English subtitles, on youtube on EuroArts official channel. I'll watch it tonight.

https://www.youtube.com/v/Fa_qpv4PA64 
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 27, 2017, 06:46:07 AM
I think I have lucked out, then, as I have only heard Stravinsky’s own and Andrew Davis’  8)

FWIW, I have no quibbles with Nagano’s Perséphone. :-\
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ritter on February 27, 2017, 06:54:38 AM
But the main theme of the ballet, heard at the outset of each movement, may be the most remarkable appropriation since it appears to be a reworking or slightly veiled rendition of the famous "Fate" motto from Beethoven's Symphony No. 5. Near the end of the ballet, in fact, it appears almost unaltered from its form in the Beethoven symphony.
Perhaps you're aware of it already, but Stravinsky himself deals with the origin of  that "fate" theme in one of his books of conversations with Robert Craft. He says it's based on the words he remebered the croupier of a casino (in a German town he used to hoilday at with his parents as a child) uttered each time he dealt: "Ein neues Spiel, ein neues Glück" ("New game, new luck"). The words (in German) fit the music perfectly (I find myself singing them in my mind every time I listen to the ballet  ;)).

Jeu de cartes is not my favourite Stravinsky by any means, but as you rightly point out, John, it's full of fun.... :)

... and Currentzis conducted staged performance from Teatro Real is complete, with English subtitles, on youtube on EuroArts official channel. I'll watch it tonight.

https://www.youtube.com/v/Fa_qpv4PA64 
Performnaces I stupidly missed (the Teatro Real is about 20 minutes walking distance form my home)  :-[ >:( ::). Not that I'm particularlty keen on Perséphone i(and the coupling with Tchaikovsky's Mazeppa wasn't too appealing to me either), but the opportinity of seeing a neglected Stravinsky score fully-staged is something that doesn't come along every day...
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 27, 2017, 07:01:47 AM
Perhaps you're aware of it already, but Stravinsky himself deals with the origin of  that "fate" theme in one of his books of conversations with Robert Craft. He says it's based on the words he remebered the croupier of a casino (in a German town he used to hoilday at with his parents as a child) uttered each time he dealt: "Ein neues Spiel, ein neues Glück" ("New game, new luck"). The words (in German) fit the music perfectly (I myself find myself singing them in my mind every time I listen to the ballet  ;)).

Jeu de cartes is not my favourite Stravinsky by any means, but as you rightly point out, John, it's full of fun.... :)

I was just reading the other day in a magazine I had bought called Listen, which discusses/reviews classical music, they had a whole feature article on Jeu de cartes and it was quite an interesting read. “New game, new luck.” This sounds like the philosophy of this ballet indeed.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mahlerian on February 27, 2017, 07:45:53 AM
Perhaps you're aware of it already, but Stravinsky himself deals with the origin of  that "fate" theme in one of his books of conversations with Robert Craft. He says it's based on the words he remebered the croupier of a casino (in a German town he used to hoilday at with his parents as a child) uttered each time he dealt: "Ein neues Spiel, ein neues Glück" ("New game, new luck"). The words (in German) fit the music perfectly (I myself find myself singing them in my mind every time I listen to the ballet  ;)).

There's a part later in Jeu de Cartes (Deal 3) where the music plays with the Beethoven 5 reference, and is about to state it before jumping off in a different direction suddenly.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 27, 2017, 07:56:39 AM
There's a part later in Jeu de Cartes (Deal 3) where the music plays with the Beethoven 5 reference, and is about to state it before jumping off in a different direction suddenly.

Jeu de cartes quotes a lot of other music, too, not just Beethoven.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mahlerian on February 27, 2017, 08:00:34 AM
Jeu de cartes quotes a lot of other music, too, not just Beethoven.

Yes, Rossini stands out as well.  It's a fun score.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 27, 2017, 08:04:38 AM
Yes, Rossini stands out as well.  It's a fun score.

It sure is! Of course, I never hinted that this ballet was a profound work, but sometimes it’s good to let your hair down and unbutton your shirt and that ‘having a good time’ element is very strong in Jeu de cartes. It also keeps you on your toes --- metaphorically speaking of course. ;)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 27, 2017, 08:07:46 AM
I have not yet been really fair to Jeu de cartes.  Soon, perhaps!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 27, 2017, 08:09:13 AM
FWIW, I have no quibbles with Nagano’s Perséphone. :-\

I haven't heard it, so I have no opinion.  And it is quite possible that if I hear it, I should like it . . . only reciprocally, the composer’s and Davis’s recordings satisfy me entirely  :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 27, 2017, 08:11:36 AM
I have not yet been really fair to Jeu de cartes.  Soon, perhaps!

Oh, I don’t see how any self-respecting Stravinskian, such as yourself, Karl, wouldn’t enjoy the work. Comic mischief, sarcastic jabs, and derailed punchlines are the flavor of the day in Jeu de cartes. 8)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 27, 2017, 08:12:32 AM
I haven't heard it, so I have no opinion.  And it is quite possible that if I hear it, I should like it . . . only reciprocally, the composer’s and Davis’s recordings satisfy me entirely  :)

I need to pick up Davis’ recording. I already own Stravinsky’s, which I haven’t heard in eons.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky PULCINELLA, JEU, BAISER, RENARD recommends?????
Post by: snyprrr on February 27, 2017, 11:33:31 AM
lSeems I got here just in time-

can you help me find some of these... what do you recommend?... here is what I was thinking:

1) RENARD- as a stand alone, I was thinking about Chailly (Decca; w/Walton) only because it stands alone. All the others
                     (Salonen, Wolff) have mostly duplicating recitals...


2) BAISER- Knussen looks like a good stand alone here?


3) JEU- Abbado with Pulcinella?


4) PULCINELLA- Abbado? I seem to like this "lush", so, Hogwood seemed to straight-n-clean... anyone else?



I already have SCENES DE BALLET with MTT,... and the DANSES CONCERTANTES with Dutoit,...






In general, how do you feel about Chailly?         Dutoit?          Salonen (the "coolest" of them all?)


Sometimes I want ice, sometimes I want fire...
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 27, 2017, 11:40:14 AM
I’ll bet that Knussen leads the Clevelanders in a lovely Le baiser de la fée.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 27, 2017, 11:43:16 AM
I’ll bet that Knussen leads the Clevelanders in a lovely Le baiser de la fée.

Oh, it’s lovely indeed, Karl. One of the best I’ve heard actually. Yet another reason to look into that Complete DG set. ;)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 27, 2017, 11:49:53 AM
Oh, it’s lovely indeed, Karl. One of the best I’ve heard actually. Yet another reason to look into that Complete DG set. ;)

Well, I was deciding that between the Boulez/Stravinsky 6-CD box, the Knussen Flood/Abraham & Isaac/Requiem Canticles (the box doesn't include the Wuorinen Reliquary as a historical extra, does it?), the Abbado Pulcinella &c. that perhaps there was too much duplication  0:)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 27, 2017, 11:56:47 AM
Well, I was deciding that between the Boulez/Stravinsky 6-CD box, the Knussen Flood/Abraham & Isaac/Requiem Canticles (the box doesn't include the Wuorinen Reliquary as a historical extra, does it?), the Abbado Pulcinella &c. that perhaps there was too much duplication  0:)

A clear-headed reasoning for not needing the box for sure. To answer your question, no, that Wuorinen work is not in the Stravinsky set.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ritter on February 27, 2017, 11:58:08 AM
Oh, it’s lovely indeed, Karl. One of the best I’ve heard actually. Yet another reason to look into that Complete DG set. ;)
+1. Knussen is excellent in  Le Baiser de la fée, and his CD of late Stravinsky works  (also on DG) is an extraordinary achievement.

As for Pulcinella, Abbado's recording ranks among the very best I am acquainted with (I am a bit biased, I admit, as I first got to know the work through it ). And Teresa Berganza is to die for in the mezzo part. Robert Craft on Naxos is also excellent IMHO.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 27, 2017, 11:59:12 AM

A clear-headed reasoning for not needing the box for sure. To answer your question, no, that Wuorinen work is not in the Stravinsky set.

A pity!  The Wuorinen Reliquary is a beautiful, striking piece.  And who knows if anyone other than Knussen will record it . . . .
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 27, 2017, 12:02:52 PM
+1. Knussen is excellent in  Le Baiser de la fée, and his CD of late Stravinsky works  (also on DG) is an extraordinary achievement.

As for  Pulcinella, Abbado's recording ranks among the very best I am acquainted with (I am a bit based,  I admit,  as I first got to know the work through it ). And  Teresa Berganza is to die for in the mezxo part. Robert Craft on Naxos is also excellent IMHO.

Indeed. I’ll add that Boulez’s recording of Pulcinella on Erato with the Ensemble Intercontemporain and vocalists Ann Murray, Anthony Rolfe-Johnson, and Simon Estes is nothing to scoff at either. :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 27, 2017, 12:06:02 PM
Indeed. I’ll add that Boulez’s recording of Pulcinella on Erato with the Ensemble Intercontemporain and vocalists Ann Murray, Anthony Rolfe-Johnson, and Simon Estes is nothing to scoff at either. :)

Well, and I must have that in this box here:

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 27, 2017, 12:09:52 PM
Well, and I must have that in this box here:



Yep, it’s in there along with Le Chant du Rossignol, Le Rossignol, L’Histoire du soldat, and several miniature goodies.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ritter on February 27, 2017, 12:12:06 PM
Indeed. I’ll add that Boulez’s recording of Pulcinella on Erato with the Ensemble Intercontemporain and vocalists Ann Murray, Anthony Rolfe-Johnson, and Simon Estes is nothing to scoff at either. :)
Now there I disagree. Being a diehard Boulez fan (no news there  ;)), I've never warmed to that recording, which I find heavy-handed and lacking in airiness and humor. Boulez's later CSO live recording is vastly superior IMHO.

Regards,
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 27, 2017, 12:12:40 PM
Pulcinella makes for an interesting exception in my listening philosophy.  As a general rule, I am all for the original, complete ballets rather than the suite—I apply this nearly with strictness to Жар-птица and Le baiser de la fée, e.g..

With Pulcinella, it is not that I prefer the suite, but that I feel that the suite does serve a good purpose, as a version of the piece performable without voices.  In a way, I guess it is similar to my enjoying the Поручик Киже suite, whether with voices or without.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: North Star on February 27, 2017, 12:14:49 PM
Well, since we're listing Pulcinella recordings now, I rather like this with Chailly..

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 27, 2017, 12:17:14 PM
Now there I disagree. Being a diehard Boulez fan  (no news there  ;)), I've never warmed to that recording,  which I find heavy-handed and lacking in airiness and humor. Boulez's later CSO live recording is vastly superior IMHO.

Regards,

Yes, I did detect a heaviness in the Boulez-led undertaking on Erato, but I still enjoyed it for the fact that it doesn't sound like many other performances I’ve heard  and I think Pulcinella benefits from different kinds of interpretations in general. It’s interesting you mention humor, because I have never found humor in any Boulez’s performances, but that’s just me. I do find Craft’s Pulcinella to be excellent as well (and Abbado’s for that matter). Honestly, I never heard a bad performance of the complete ballet. I like all that I’ve heard.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 27, 2017, 12:18:34 PM
Well, since we're listing Pulcinella recordings now, I rather like this with Chailly..



Yep, that’s a good one, too, Karlo. 8) Like I said, I’ve never heard a bad recording of it. I’m not being very discriminating here, but it’s the truth. Must be something wrong with my ears. ;)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 27, 2017, 12:19:37 PM
Pulcinella makes for an interesting exception in my listening philosophy.  As a general rule, I am all for the original, complete ballets rather than the suite—I apply this nearly with strictness to Жар-птица and Le baiser de la fée, e.g..

With Pulcinella, it is not that I prefer the suite, but that I feel that the suite does serve a good purpose, as a version of the piece performable without voices.  In a way, I guess it is similar to my enjoying the Поручик Киже suite, whether with voices or without.

I love both versions. It doesn’t matter which one I hear.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ritter on February 27, 2017, 12:25:26 PM
Honestly, I never heard a bad performance of the complete ballet. I like all that I’ve heard.
That might change once you've listened to the composer's first, mono recording with the Clevelanders (which you have in the big Sony box you bought recently). A  very sloppy affair,  I'm afraid.  ::)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 27, 2017, 12:26:27 PM
That might change once you've listened to the composr's first, mono recording with the Clevelanders (which you have in the big Sony box you bought recently ) A  very sloppy affair,  I'm afraid.  ::)

I’ll be sure to skip that one, then. ;) I don’t like mono recordings anyway, so that alone strikes it off my list.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 27, 2017, 12:52:14 PM
Upon revisitation of Cantata, I asked myself “Where has this music been all of my life?” It was then that answered myself, in truly psychopathic fashion, “In your storage boxes, silly.” ;D
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on February 27, 2017, 01:53:49 PM
Well, since we're listing Pulcinella recordings now, I rather like this with Chailly..



One of my aims here was to avoid any issues that coupled with TheBig3,... or that otherwise were just maddeningly duplicitous. The Salonen disc with Pulcie,Renard,Octet, and Ragtime and the Wolff disc with Pulcie,Renard,2Suites, and Ragtime,... you know? Therefore, and here's one for you all to think about, h- how is Alun Francis on Arte Nova in Jeu/Baiser?


Anyhow, it seems you all have confirmed my inquiries- yea, it's interesting how these "best choices" present themselves and we all agree. I love when a plan comes together! 8)

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky !!!!!LE CHANT DU ROSSIGNOL- snyprrrWORLD PREMIERE!!!!!
Post by: snyprrr on February 27, 2017, 02:03:54 PM
Le Chant du Rossignol


Well, this whole time I thought this piece was a part of the Opera, and was a long, slow, rapturous vocalese, or, at least, an aria. I mean, why shouldn't I have assumed it was part of an opera?

Anyhow, flash forward to yesterday, when I'm looking through all the Igor I probably won't like ('Rage' I just didn't want to hear; 'Mavra' sounded nice in the background; 'Renard' sounded like fun), and I see LCDR sitting there in the middle like some refugee from 1906.  I saw that it was 20mins., so, I guess... it has to be... sooomething,...mmm?

So, I got around to seeing the Boulez (DG) and Chailly (Decca) next to each other on the Q, and saw they almost had the same programme, and read the reviews, andAndAND...

WOW, the Chailly sample sounded like a Bartok-meets-Cowell???... or something pretty cool, very ticking, as the story I learned (see? I had no idea what it was). So, I was thinking 'Miraculous Mandarin', right? Anyhow, I didn't think Boulez did the same cool thing. What say ye?

Anyhow, now I reevaluate all these considerations in light of this MajorIgorMoment!!

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky RENARD
Post by: snyprrr on February 27, 2017, 02:09:22 PM
Renard

I thought this was brilliant last night, heard it for the first time (Chailly, w/Walton). I usually can't handle that many warbling males voices,  but of course here it is all done wonderfully. I just had it on in the background, but I could have sworn it sounded like Chailly conducting Hindemith there for a second in the beginning, Anyhow, this and 'Le Chant du...' were my two major discoveries last night.

Well, and 'The Fairy's Kiss',... didn't make it to 'The Card Game', but, at this point I'm going to figure that I'll like it as much as everything else.



can't fight it now :laugh:
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky MY RULES FOR IGOR
Post by: snyprrr on February 27, 2017, 02:24:10 PM
Collecting Igor can be a bewildering proposition. Here are some of my guidelines-


1) APOLLO & ORPHEUS always always always need to go together. Add AGON if you want, but please,... right?


2) BAISER & JEU should go together... only one is Alun Francis on Arte Nova


3) It's always a good idea to have ALL THREE "SYMPHONIES" TOGETHER- witness Composer/CBS.


4) Please don't ruin a perfectly adventurous programme with a lousy SYM/PSALMS!!!!!


5) Put all PIANO & ORCHESTRA rogether- witness Salonen and Ashkenazy.


6) ALWAYS put SACRE with either

a- totally different Composer, ultra adventurous (Barenboim/Teldec)

b- TRY to get all of TheBig3 on one "disc",........ otherwise, just one of the other two,... maybe add 'Noces' into the mix for a
    double? (Davis, Dorati)

c- totally off the wall Igor (Mackerras)


7) Don't mix it up so much that your programme comes into competition with every.single.purchase.always.


8) NO GRATUITOUS SACRES, or TheBig3.


9) Son't put Orchestra and Chamber Music together (Chailly- Baiser and clarinet solos???)


10 ) any more?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Scion7 on February 27, 2017, 02:55:17 PM
re: snypyyyrrrr

I am speechless.
I am without speech.
 :blank:
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 27, 2017, 03:01:56 PM
Collecting Igor can be a bewildering proposition. Here are some of my guidelines-


1) APOLLO & ORPHEUS always always always need to go together. Add AGON if you want, but please,... right?


2) BAISER & JEU should go together... only one is Alun Francis on Arte Nova


3) It's always a good idea to have ALL THREE "SYMPHONIES" TOGETHER- witness Composer/CBS.


4) Please don't ruin a perfectly adventurous programme with a lousy SYM/PSALMS!!!!!


5) Put all PIANO & ORCHESTRA rogether- witness Salonen and Ashkenazy.


6) ALWAYS put SACRE with either

a- totally different Composer, ultra adventurous (Barenboim/Teldec)

b- TRY to get all of TheBig3 on one "disc",........ otherwise, just one of the other two,... maybe add 'Noces' into the mix for a
    double? (Davis, Dorati)

c- totally off the wall Igor (Mackerras)


7) Don't mix it up so much that your programme comes into competition with every.single.purchase.always.


8) NO GRATUITOUS SACRES, or TheBig3.


9) Son't put Orchestra and Chamber Music together (Chailly- Baiser and clarinet solos???)


10 ) any more?

If a recording has an intelligent Stravinsky program then it’s a success. As for your guidelines, well...thanks for the laugh. :D
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky LES NOCES.... gesuntheit!!
Post by: snyprrr on February 27, 2017, 04:06:36 PM
lES nOCES


I left it like that to highlight its Modernity. All I ask for is your TopChoice. I expect no more than three...
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on February 27, 2017, 04:11:30 PM
AAAAHHHH- I don't have enough funds$$$!!!??? ??? :o ??? :o


GO FUND my Stravinsky binge!!


If a recording has an intelligent Stravinsky program then it’s a success. As for your guidelines, well...thanks for the laugh. :D

btw- that DG Box... yea, kinda tempting, BUT,... I do see they reached far and wide, but mostly Boulez,... some of the crucial choices are "pre-approved" though...

but I'm already too far down the rabbit hole...



I do like Mustonen...  (oh, this carbonara is expanding...excuse me...)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on February 27, 2017, 04:12:34 PM
It was pretty obvious I was going to have an Igor "problem"... lol :'(
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky LES NOCES.... gesuntheit!!
Post by: Drasko on February 27, 2017, 04:48:20 PM
lES nOCES


I left it like that to highlight its Modernity. All I ask for is your TopChoice. I expect no more than three...

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91ddhNXjMdL._SL1500_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91WgiqKBo3L._SL1500_.jpg)

Reuss has been my long time favorite for vibrancy, crispness, precision, clarity, recording quality ...
Eotvos is still I believe the only recording of the 1917 version for full orchestra.
You could also get Rex Lawson on pianola, Stravinsky's transcription.

Of other recordings of standard version that I've heard Stravinsky's own is not that well played nor recorded, Craft's second (Naxos) is ok but not particularly memorable, Ancerl is very good but the recording shows a bit of age, Gergiev is manic, Currentzis I have but haven't listened to yet.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 27, 2017, 05:03:31 PM

1) RENARD- as a stand alone, I was thinking about Chailly (Decca; w/Walton) only because it stands alone. All the others
                     (Salonen, Wolff) have mostly duplicating recitals...

Quote
Dutoit?         

The one below kills two birds with one stone: Renard and Dutoit (and maybe three birds since the coupling looks right). It's the only Stravinsky I've heard by Dutoit but it is a fabulous performance.



Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 27, 2017, 05:08:01 PM
IMHO, Boulez’s Erato account of L’Histoire du soldat is quite fine:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51XRrsvSTAL.jpg)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 28, 2017, 08:42:58 AM
Now there I disagree. Being a diehard Boulez fan (no news there  ;) ), I've never warmed to that recording, which I find heavy-handed and lacking in airiness and humor. Boulez's later CSO live recording is vastly superior IMHO.

Regards,

Cheers, Rafael!  The recording with the Ensemble InterContemporain is peculiar in some ways.  The interpretation is smoother, more romantified than (a) is usual for the Stravinsky piece, and (b) is typical of the band (and, well, their Leader).   So I could see the recording suffering in your estimation for those reasons.  It is not my first choice (and you have now piqued my curiosity for the CSO recording), but I admit I enjoy it as a musically strongly presented alternate take.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ritter on February 28, 2017, 09:32:25 AM
Cheers, Rafael!  The recording with the Ensemble InterContemporain is peculiar in some ways.  The interpretation is smoother, more romantified than (a) is usual for the Stravinsky piece, and (b) is typical of the band (and, well, their Leader).   So I could see the recording suffering in your estimation for those reasons.  It is not my first choice (and you have now piqued my curiosity for the CSO recording), but I admit I enjoy it as a musically strongly presented alternate take.
Good day,  Karl! I see your point. I'm all for alternate approaches to great works  (as long as they're done the way I like them) :D

Perhaps, in this occasion,  I'm being more papist than the Pope  ;)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 28, 2017, 09:49:14 AM
Hey, one prefers what one prefers!  No fault.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky LES NOCES.... gesuntheit!!
Post by: snyprrr on February 28, 2017, 06:53:45 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91ddhNXjMdL._SL1500_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91WgiqKBo3L._SL1500_.jpg)

Reuss has been my long time favorite for vibrancy, crispness, precision, clarity, recording quality ...
Eotvos is still I believe the only recording of the 1917 version for full orchestra.
You could also get Rex Lawson on pianola, Stravinsky's transcription.

Of other recordings of standard version that I've heard Stravinsky's own is not that well played nor recorded, Craft's second (Naxos) is ok but not particularly memorable, Ancerl is very good but the recording shows a bit of age, Gergiev is manic, Currentzis I have but haven't listened to yet.

thx... almost there...

The one below kills two birds with one stone: Renard and Dutoit (and maybe three birds since the coupling looks right). It's the only Stravinsky I've heard by Dutoit but it is a fabulous performance.





Soldat?

Have I ever heard... wait... what?... have I only heard the trio version? which I'm really ambivalent over (Charlie Daniels)... what's the best way to hear this music? and who?

Hey, one prefers what one prefers!  No fault.

Excellence Has No Preferences!! (Four Word Post, Karl)- three times, how's that? :laugh:


OK, closing in on the homestretch... finally

CONCERTO IN Eb

CONCERTO IN D
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky: I Need Real "ticktockticktock" In 'Dumbarton Oaks'
Post by: snyprrr on February 28, 2017, 07:05:07 PM
'Dumbarton Oaks' Concerto

I have Dutoit, but critics agree, he may be just a little polite, and I thought he missed the "ticking" theme, which I must now hear in strict "ticktock" rhythm. Please, lets settle this one right away. Somehow I imagine Chailly doing it well (remembering that 'Le Chant du Rossignol' sample).

Otherwise, Dutoit's sonics are fine, but there are so many oddball contenders out there: Guildhall, Norrington!!!!!, Colin Davis, Boulez, Hogwood, Orpheus, Sarasate (Virgin), the Endymion Ensemble (EMI-rare?), Howarth (EMI),

Surely there must be some neurotic out there with most of em...eh? What's the skinny?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky IS CONCERTO IN D IGOR'S MOST _____PIECE?
Post by: snyprrr on February 28, 2017, 07:28:08 PM
Concerto in D

Everyone always says that you have to be careful to whom you listen to in this one, because some, apparently, just don't "get it". All I have handy in Dutoit- the Reviewers seem to be kind to him, so, I eagerly awaited the first notes.

Now, I'm always getting the two 'Concertos' mixed up, but this time, I heard this dark, Martinu-like motorized horror show of "wrong note baroque", maybe a soundtrack for 'Nosferatu'? I like it this time, but it seems unfriendly in a way, but the direction, and sound, maximize everything into relief, yielding an imposing, and forced, musical argument that I can see turning audiences off at the time (and still not popular?).

I figured you could just look at this as a timbre piece. Dutoit gave up some niiice string tones, but is there anyone else whose strings are out of this world (Karajan besides).

I don't have Karajan at the hand, but I remember his being very criticized, yet checking now people seem to like the lushness...


Let's see, who else of note?...


Guildhall (RCA)
Iona Brown (Virgin)
Colin Davis
Salonen (SONY)
Turovsky
Sarasate (Virgin)


No Boulez here??? huh...Chailly?

If it's not loud, then you're not listening to Stavinsky  :P

Now that you mention it, it does seem like Igor and IX share the dismissal of volume to the argument,... hmmm? Igor has a few normal quiet parts, but not so much in IX, but there is definitely an ON/off switch instead of a volume knob in both of them (and Feldman- pulling the sounds out of boxes on a desk).

I wouldn't say "loud", I would say "on", as in "oh that Igor, he's always 'on'"

as opposed to "oh that Romantic fellow, he's always going in and out." (with the dynamics)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky VIOLIN CONCERTO
Post by: snyprrr on February 28, 2017, 07:32:17 PM
Violin Concerto

I don't think I've ever ventured beyond that classic Mutter disc. I'd be really interested in some perhaps oddball or just outstanding recommends- Mutter&Co. are pretty glossy (are they?), not saying it's bad- doesn't leave me wanting, but it does make me wonder of others' approaches.

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on February 28, 2017, 07:33:19 PM
This is just full blown Igor-ama Mania Month March.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on February 28, 2017, 07:34:54 PM
re: snypyyyrrrr

I am speechless.
I am without speech.
 :blank:

Don't just stand there, soldier, recommend us something excellent!! $:)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on February 28, 2017, 08:39:45 PM
What's your favorite "era" of Stravinsky Snyprrr?  :)

You didn’t ask me and this may be a complete cop-out, but I love all of Stravinsky’s stylistic periods.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky LES NOCES.... gesuntheit!!
Post by: Mirror Image on February 28, 2017, 08:46:53 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91ddhNXjMdL._SL1500_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91WgiqKBo3L._SL1500_.jpg)

Reuss has been my long time favorite for vibrancy, crispness, precision, clarity, recording quality ...
Eotvos is still I believe the only recording of the 1917 version for full orchestra.
You could also get Rex Lawson on pianola, Stravinsky's transcription.

Of other recordings of standard version that I've heard Stravinsky's own is not that well played nor recorded, Craft's second (Naxos) is ok but not particularly memorable, Ancerl is very good but the recording shows a bit of age, Gergiev is manic, Currentzis I have but haven't listened to yet.

I’d LOVE to own that Eotvos recording of both versions of Les noces. It’s curious that Hungaroton has never bothered reissuing it. :-\
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky IS CONCERTO IN D IGOR'S MOST _____PIECE?
Post by: Drasko on March 01, 2017, 02:21:14 AM
Concerto in D

Let's see, who else of note?...


It's a well known fact the best Concertos in D come from Switzerland.

Hogwood in Basel re-creates 1947 concert where all three pieces were premiered. An absolute must:


... also composer himself, live in Lugano. My judgement on this one may be slightly clouded since it was the first Stravinsky CD I ever bought.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51HkFmqMlVL.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51d8Gulp13L.jpg)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 01, 2017, 04:26:58 AM
Violin Concerto

I don't think I've ever ventured beyond that classic Mutter disc. I'd be really interested in some perhaps oddball or just outstanding recommends- Mutter&Co. are pretty glossy (are they?), not saying it's bad- doesn't leave me wanting, but it does make me wonder of others' approaches.

Scheiderhan/Ančerl
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on March 01, 2017, 02:54:18 PM
What's your favorite "era" of Stravinsky Snyprrr?  :)

icy coolness?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky: Ohio License Plate "THRENI"
Post by: Cato on March 01, 2017, 04:28:04 PM
Yes!  A day or two ago I found myself following a car here (i.e. in the center of Ohio) with the license plate:

 THRENI  8) 8) 8)

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky VIOLIN CONCERTO
Post by: Mirror Image on March 01, 2017, 07:49:28 PM
Violin Concerto

I don't think I've ever ventured beyond that classic Mutter disc. I'd be really interested in some perhaps oddball or just outstanding recommends- Mutter&Co. are pretty glossy (are they?), not saying it's bad- doesn't leave me wanting, but it does make me wonder of others' approaches.

Hahn/Marriner get the nod from me, but I’ve never heard a bad performance of the VC except for Isaac Stern/Stravinsky, but that’s because I never have cared for Stern’s screechy playing. Completely devoid of warmth and his violin tone is like nails on a chalkboard.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky VIOLIN CONCERTO
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on March 01, 2017, 07:56:11 PM
Hahn/Marriner get the nod from me,
Its ok. IF not for the Brahms coupling I would not have bought that disc. I for one do not get Igor's VC, maybe in due time.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky VIOLIN CONCERTO
Post by: Mahlerian on March 01, 2017, 09:15:18 PM
Hahn/Marriner get the nod from me, but I’ve never heard a bad performance of the VC except for Isaac Stern/Stravinsky, but that’s because I never have cared for Stern’s screechy playing. Completely devoid of warmth and his violin tone is like nails on a chalkboard.

Stravinsky should have recorded it with someone who cared about the piece more.  Stern never played it in concert before or after those recording sessions.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Scion7 on March 01, 2017, 09:29:08 PM
Isaac Stern is one of the great violin masters.
Another trip to the woodshed for M.I. !

(http://s18.postimg.org/pu3s9460p/who_needs_a_spanking_men_s_premium_t_shirt.jpg)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky VIOLIN CONCERTO
Post by: Mirror Image on March 01, 2017, 09:34:33 PM
Its ok. IF not for the Brahms coupling I would not have bought that disc. I for one do not get Igor's VC, maybe in due time.

Well, I do get Stravinsky’s VC and love every minute of it. Hahn’s performance is exemplary.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky VIOLIN CONCERTO
Post by: Mirror Image on March 01, 2017, 09:35:03 PM
Stravinsky should have recorded it with someone who cared about the piece more.  Stern never played it in concert before or after those recording sessions.

Indeed. If only. :-\
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on March 01, 2017, 09:35:54 PM
Isaac Stern is one of the great violin masters.
Another trip to the woodshed for M.I. !

This doesn’t mean I have to like or enjoy his playing, which I never have, so there.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: amw on March 01, 2017, 09:36:08 PM
Mullova/Salonen remains the only performance I've heard that makes sense of the piece to me. Kopatchinskaja/Jurowski is also not bad but can't really escape fluffiness.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on March 01, 2017, 09:53:02 PM
Mullova/Salonen remains the only performance I've heard that makes sense of the piece to me. Kopatchinskaja/Jurowski is also not bad but can't really escape fluffiness.

Stravinsky’s VC does contain profundity. Whether or not you can’t pick up on it, isn’t the composer’s fault.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: amw on March 01, 2017, 09:56:22 PM
Nope. But performers often don't really try to bring it out, or don't succeed in doing so (imo).
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on March 01, 2017, 09:58:08 PM
Nope. But performers often don't really try to bring it out, or don't succeed in doing so (imo).

Yep, certainly your opinion.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky VIOLIN CONCERTO
Post by: snyprrr on March 02, 2017, 09:50:34 AM
Hahn/Marriner get the nod from me, but I’ve never heard a bad performance of the VC except for Isaac Stern/Stravinsky, but that’s because I never have cared for Stern’s screechy playing. Completely devoid of warmth and his violin tone is like nails on a chalkboard.

Karl recommended Schneiderham- nice enough- and then I went a seasrching:

1) Perlman- oy vey, you think Stern is screechy?????? I was laughing out loud 20 secs. into it with IP. Oy, what horrible playing- I wonder if he thought he was adding some jew flavor or something- it sounds like Topol on acid!!!!!

2) Couldn't find Mullova, but how can she not be good?

3) Vengerov- couldn't hear, but I imagine he really bites into it??!!!>??

4) HAHN- well, wow- hey, I was all set to roll my eyes, but Marriner and Hahn are fast as shit and really dig into it. I'm no Sonicman when it comes to Hahn, but I had to give it to her here.

5) Mordkovitch??- samples sounded nice...

6) ???


There was more recordings than I thought......

Mutter is kinda "perfect"... I do want so "scratch", but not like I heard in Perlman!!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 02, 2017, 09:58:11 AM
It is decades since I listened to this, and I should revisit it . . . the Sarge (among others) bespeaks the Prokofiev:

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky ??? JARVI???
Post by: snyprrr on March 02, 2017, 12:00:46 PM
How do like Jarvi in Igor? Specifically- I heard the samples of the two Symphonies, and a few others from the set that sounded really really good (only samples though)- '...Psalms'?... I dunno, he's got an interesting selection of stuff...


And then there's Alexander Gibson... very clean sounding readings of the Symphonies...
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on March 02, 2017, 12:01:46 PM
Sorry, but I'll be pounding this Thread like a cheap hooker until I get what I want. :-X :-\ :-[
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky SYMPHONY OF PSALMS
Post by: snyprrr on March 02, 2017, 12:08:09 PM
Symphony of Psalms

How can I forget that opening, that minor key piano figure, and that semi-tone on the strings? As I've been looking for an alternative to the classic Columbia/CBS recording, I'm finding too many variables. Really? Should it be so hard to get everything right?

Just from the first "lightning round", Solti seemed to make an impression... MTT??, I don't know what quite to make of that one... I see neither Salonen or Dutoit have one... Chailly gets critical marks for low-wattage... Celibidache plays it soooo slow... Karajan a bit too polished?... Shaw?...Shaw?...is it really that flabby?... Gardiner seemed a bit trimmed and polite?...


I totally expect one of you to come to my rescue here- surely you have already settled this one... (oy, if you tell me that Igor's is the best@!!)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 02, 2017, 12:12:59 PM
I do really like Boulez and Craft in the Symphony of Psalms.  May have a marginal preference for the following, with boy trebles in the choir:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61NOaKcHbBL.jpg)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky SYMPHONY OF PSALMS
Post by: North Star on March 02, 2017, 12:16:01 PM
It is decades since I listened to this, and I should revisit it . . . the Sarge (among others) bespeaks the Prokofiev:
I recall enjoying that, but having doubts of Chung's intonation.


Symphony of Psalms

How can I forget that opening, that minor key piano figure, and that semi-tone on the strings? As I've been looking for an alternative to the classic Columbia/CBS recording, I'm finding too many variables. Really? Should it be so hard to get everything right?

Just from the first "lightning round", Solti seemed to make an impression... MTT??, I don't know what quite to make of that one... I see neither Salonen or Dutoit have one... Chailly gets critical marks for low-wattage... Celibidache plays it soooo slow... Karajan a bit too polished?... Shaw?...Shaw?...is it really that flabby?... Gardiner seemed a bit trimmed and polite?...

I totally expect one of you to come to my rescue here- surely you have already settled this one... (oy, if you tell me that Igor's is the best@!!)
It's criminal that this is OOP now, but at least there's a cheap 'used - good' copy at Amazon.

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky WORKING BACKWARDS FROM LATE IGOR
Post by: snyprrr on March 02, 2017, 12:23:12 PM
Requiem Cantiles- Knussen/DG or (Jarvi?)

Variations- Knussen/DG or MTT/RCA
Canon on Russian Tunes- MTT/RCA

Fanfare for A New Theatre- Boulez/DG(special promo) or Orpheus/DG or MDG

Elegy for JFK
In Memoriam Dylan Thomas      .........all these Boulez/DG
4 Songs
3 Songs



THE RAKE'S PROGRESS DG or Decca    ?????   ?????    ?????


(Tango)
Septet- I only know that the Ashkenazy/Decca seems to be the most high profile release??
(Concertino)- I only know of MTT/RCA

general choral works- all I really know here is the Igor/SONY, all-in-one... can you give some recs on Mass/Cantata/Cant.Sacr.



That's what I have for 1950-1966. Technically, not a great variety needed here... and, if you already have MTT and Ashkenazy and the Boulez 'Songs' for other things, the only expenditure for Igor's 'Late Period' would be the Knussen and 'Rake'.

You gotta eat an elephant one bite at a time! ;)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky WORKING BACKWARDS FROM LATE IGOR
Post by: Mahlerian on March 02, 2017, 12:26:16 PM
Requiem Cantiles- Knussen/DG or (Jarvi?)

Variations- Knussen/DG or MTT/RCA

Knussen for both!  That's one great disc.

That's what I have for 1950-1966. Technically, not a great variety needed here... and, if you already have MTT and Ashkenazy and the Boulez 'Songs' for other things, the only expenditure for Igor's 'Late Period' would be the Knussen and 'Rake'.

You gotta eat an elephant one bite at a time! ;)

Herreweghe's Threni is a must.  It's the longest work of his late period, and in my list of Stravinsky's top 5 or 10 works.  Stravinsky/Sony is iffy, Craft/Koch is dull, but Herreweghe/Phi is passionate and accurate!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on March 02, 2017, 12:35:47 PM
I do really like Boulez and Craft in the Symphony of Psalms.  May have a marginal preference for the following, with boy trebles in the choir:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61NOaKcHbBL.jpg)

Boulez was...mm... "perfect", I thought slow, but the timing was normal... Craft I liked (Koch/Naxos?) but the sound seemed a little recessed?- you can here the nice violence of the first hit though, Craft seemed the ballsy choice?


But, yea, the Hyperion has always seemed like the champagne choice... I know I've had it from some library, but, somehow I know I must have compared it with Igor/CBS and come away liking the latter??? I'll try to find the Hyprn on YT...

Have you heard the Celibidache? oy- so slow!!



I am HACKING my way through this flippin Igor Forest!! ;)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky SYMPHONY OF PSALMS
Post by: Mirror Image on March 02, 2017, 08:28:02 PM
Symphony of Psalms

How can I forget that opening, that minor key piano figure, and that semi-tone on the strings? As I've been looking for an alternative to the classic Columbia/CBS recording, I'm finding too many variables. Really? Should it be so hard to get everything right?

Just from the first "lightning round", Solti seemed to make an impression... MTT??, I don't know what quite to make of that one... I see neither Salonen or Dutoit have one... Chailly gets critical marks for low-wattage... Celibidache plays it soooo slow... Karajan a bit too polished?... Shaw?...Shaw?...is it really that flabby?... Gardiner seemed a bit trimmed and polite?...


I totally expect one of you to come to my rescue here- surely you have already settled this one... (oy, if you tell me that Igor's is the best@!!)

The O’Donnell performance on Hyperion is my pick here, but Stravinsky’s own performance made an invaluable impression on me when I first-heard the work seven years ago. I like Craft and Bernstein a lot as well.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky WORKING BACKWARDS FROM LATE IGOR
Post by: Mirror Image on March 02, 2017, 08:37:58 PM
general choral works- all I really know here is the Igor/SONY, all-in-one... can you give some recs on Mass/Cantata/Cant.Sacr.

O’Donnell (Hyperion) or De Leeuw (Philips) for the Mass. De Leeuw (Philips) for the Cantata. O’Donnell for Canticum Sacrum.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on March 03, 2017, 06:52:28 AM
Requiem Canticles and Variations for Huxley are two of my favorite Stravinsky works, period  :D

Imagine if he had another 20 years  ::)
He DID live till almost 90, NO REASON FOR COMPLAINT.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on March 03, 2017, 06:58:14 AM
He DID live till almost 90, NO REASON FOR COMPLAINT.

Hear, hear...if only we’d all be so lucky to live as full of life as Igor (and many other composers did).
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky STRAVINSKY vs. THE DESERTS
Post by: snyprrr on March 03, 2017, 02:32:14 PM
Have you read the Amazon Reviews by the character who does the "Stravinsky vs. The Deserts"? Almost funny...
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky STRAVINSKY vs. THE DESERTS
Post by: Mahlerian on March 03, 2017, 02:37:44 PM
Have you read the Amazon Reviews by the character who does the "Stravinsky vs. The Deserts"? Almost funny...

To me the funniest part was when he said that the Capriccio was a demonstration of the futility and aridity of serial writing, or something like that.  I can understand maybe thinking a weirder work like Zvezdoliki is 12-tone, but the Carpriccio????
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky AGON-A-THON
Post by: snyprrr on March 03, 2017, 02:44:51 PM
Agon

I found the cache of 'Agon' recordings on YT last night: Rosbaud, Leinsdorth, Mravinsky, Gielen, MTT (which I have), but no Craft (which I have in storage).

Well, I found Rosbaud the clear winner- why the rest have inferior mic placement is beyond me, but with Rosbaud you hear everything crisply delineated in sections of the listening sphere. Leinsdorf's sound is no where near as good, and neither is Mravinsky's. Even MTT seemed muffled by comparison. Gielen was crisp and modern, but didn't have a particularly special feel to it, whereas the Rosbaud feels special. Eh?

I just finished listening through the MTT. Yea, I guess I could stand for a little more "competition" here. It sounds more like "music" than a "game". I can imagine how someone like Rosbaud can bring ouf the competing, sectional aspect more. Still, the "Greek" feel of the music is somewhat there, but I don't feel MTT keeps up the act, it comes and goes. More rigorous discipline, a la Boulez, might have yielded the correct feeling? I felt like there was a herky-jerky feeling that was missing from MTT.

Anyhow, the Rosbaud is available on that SONY Box, no? 'Great Masterpieces of the 20th Century', or something?

To me the funniest part was when he said that the Capriccio was a demonstration of the futility and aridity of serial writing, or something like that.  I can understand maybe thinking a weirder work like Zvezdoliki is 12-tone, but the Carpriccio????

Yea, he doesn't really have his analogy down, does he? LOL, but, yea, still kinda funny
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky AGON-A-THON
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 03, 2017, 04:03:09 PM
Agon

I found the cache of 'Agon' recordings on YT last night: Rosbaud, Leinsdorth, Mravinsky, Gielen, MTT (which I have), but no Craft (which I have in storage).

Well, I found Rosbaud the clear winner- why the rest have inferior mic placement is beyond me, but with Rosbaud you hear everything crisply delineated in sections of the listening sphere. Leinsdorf's sound is no where near as good, and neither is Mravinsky's. Even MTT seemed muffled by comparison. Gielen was crisp and modern, but didn't have a particularly special feel to it, whereas the Rosbaud feels special. Eh?

I just finished listening through the MTT. Yea, I guess I could stand for a little more "competition" here. It sounds more like "music" than a "game". I can imagine how someone like Rosbaud can bring ouf the competing, sectional aspect more. Still, the "Greek" feel of the music is somewhat there, but I don't feel MTT keeps up the act, it comes and goes. More rigorous discipline, a la Boulez, might have yielded the correct feeling? I felt like there was a herky-jerky feeling that was missing from MTT.

Anyhow, the Rosbaud is available on that SONY Box, no? 'Great Masterpieces of the 20th Century', or something?

Yea, he doesn't really have his analogy down, does he? LOL, but, yea, still kinda funny

The Rosbaud is primo.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky ?????RARE DG CD PROMO OF BOULEZ?????
Post by: snyprrr on March 03, 2017, 04:19:16 PM
Is there a French CD Promo of the Boulez 'Dunbarton & Ebony & 8 Miniatures', that also includes all the random Chamber Music, such as the clarinet and viola pieces, the 'Epitaphium' and 'Double Canon'??? This has the white DG cover of a line drawing of Igor- same as the LP. I also duplicates in the DG Box, but was never released? With Ensemble Intercontemporain

any availability?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky AGON-A-THON
Post by: Mahlerian on March 03, 2017, 04:27:17 PM
Yea, he doesn't really have his analogy down, does he? LOL, but, yea, still kinda funny

In the interest of correcting my mistakes when I ridicule others'...the quote I was referring to was about the Concerto for Piano and Winds.

"For instance, the first movement of the Concerto for Piano and Winds sounds like a parody of Chopin’s Funeral March which has spent an unhealthy amount of time in a microwave? For sheer vapidity, its finale is unsurpassable. It’s a vivid reminder that serialism turned out to be nothing more than a blind-gut in the lower intestines of Western Civilisation."

He doesn't say anything more positive about the Capriccio, though.

"The dryness intensifies in the Capriccio for Piano and Orchestra. Even scorpions would say that it’s an ordeal. With nary a melody in sight, it expounds the hegemony of rarefied intelligence over anachronisms such as talent, vision and longing to live on something more than mere bread. Its remit is not beyond the resources of a cactus."

I still think it's funny that the people who purport to hate serialism the most have no ability whatsoever to identify whether or not something is in fact serial.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Crudblud on March 03, 2017, 04:34:09 PM
Rosbaud and Gielen do wonderful Agons. Both very different, but I would have a difficult time choosing between the two for my personal favourite.

I'll put in another recommendation for the Salonen recording of the Violin Concerto with Mullova. I couldn't really put into words what it is about this one in particular, but it feels like rhythmically, dynamically, in timbre, in overall sound, nothing is a hair out of place, and yet it is not at all mechanical. Total coherence. Where someone earlier said it was fluffy, I would say it is full of wit and invention.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: kishnevi on March 03, 2017, 06:11:30 PM
Having listened the other day to Stravinsky's own recording (1957 LA Festival SO)--perhaps the sonics suffer by comparison, but the musicality itself is hard to beat.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky KARAJAN + SYMPHONY IN C = LOVE AGAIN!!
Post by: snyprrr on March 03, 2017, 09:59:42 PM
MY MOST IMPORTANT STRAVINSKY QUESTION:

The very very ending of the Symphony in C, the final string chord,- in the Stravinsky CBS, the chord has a big big sound up close, and it is my most cherished IgorMoment,- I can't tell you how much it mean to me,-

but

I can't seem to find another. Of co. urse, no one is recorded as up close as that CBS, so, it would be fake sounding (as it is, I suppose in that one, but, you know, it sounds so great). Dutoit is very quiet.

Karajan caught me. He's quiet, but he lets the chord ring out a while.



Which brings me to Karajan's  c Symphony. I love it. The 1969 sound is spectacular, and, of course, it sounds better than the CBS. Japan pressing has it with DSCH 10- a great coupling!!

I just wanted to draw your attention to Karajan here. I had no idea. I rechecked his Concerto in D, and, as per its reputation as being a completely wrong interpretation, it does sound completely "teutonic", as opposed to Dutoit's quite charmingly French,... err, Swiss?, take. Karajan takes the 1st mvmt. a minute longer I think...

anyhow, Karajan = C

He also did the 'Circus Polka', lol!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on March 03, 2017, 10:01:07 PM
It's a madhouse in this Thread. Every man for themselves!!

Who has made their first impulse buy?




Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on March 03, 2017, 10:05:24 PM
Rosbaud and Gielen do wonderful Agons. Both very different, but I would have a difficult time choosing between the two for my personal favourite.

I'll put in another recommendation for the Salonen recording of the Violin Concerto with Mullova. I couldn't really put into words what it is about this one in particular, but it feels like rhythmically, dynamically, in timbre, in overall sound, nothing is a hair out of place, and yet it is not at all mechanical. Total coherence. Where someone earlier said it was fluffy, I would say it is full of wit and invention.

Rosbaud has "characterful" sound whereas Gielen just has "great" sound ;D


You won me over to Mullova.


I'm curious if it's safe to disregard Venerov/Rosty, or not...???...



Stravinsky Listening Days are at fever pitch here. This Thread is HOT!! 8)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky ?????RARE DG CD PROMO OF BOULEZ?????
Post by: ritter on March 04, 2017, 01:45:00 AM
Is there a French CD Promo of the Boulez 'Dunbarton & Ebony & 8 Miniatures', that also includes all the random Chamber Music, such as the clarinet and viola pieces, the 'Epitaphium' and 'Double Canon'??? This has the white DG cover of a line drawing of Igor- same as the LP. I also duplicates in the DG Box, but was never released? With Ensemble Intercontemporain

any availability?

(http://www.popsike.com/pix/20100412/170466232268.jpg)
AFAIK, this album was only issued on CD (with this cover) in Japan (and I'm not 100% certain of that either to be honest). But the contents is available in the "Stravinsky Complete Edition" and the "Boulez conducts Stravinsky" boxes on DG. Dumbarton Oaks and the Ebony Concerto are avaialbale on an Originals issue along with the Berg Chamber concerto... A pity, because the cover is quite attractive, as was that of the original LP issue of the album with Stravinkys songs:

(https://img.discogs.com/i1TaoCDiO69zphB9Ivtsy7DEu2c=/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-3442385-1330543819.jpeg.jpg)
When transferred to CD, they used a plain cover (as usual with DG's "20th Century Classics" series  :( )
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 04, 2017, 05:23:55 AM
It's a madhouse in this Thread. Every man for themselves!!

Who has made their first impulse buy?

It's an album about which I have been curious forever, but this thread's revivification was the occasion for my fetching the download of the Eötvös recording of the two versions of Свадебка.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 04, 2017, 05:24:46 AM
Rosbaud and Gielen do wonderful Agons. Both very different, but I would have a difficult time choosing between the two for my personal favourite.

Having listened the other day to Stravinsky's own recording (1957 LA Festival SO)--perhaps the sonics suffer by comparison, but the musicality itself is hard to beat.

Yes and yes.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky ?????RARE DG CD PROMO OF BOULEZ?????
Post by: Mirror Image on March 04, 2017, 05:53:02 AM
(http://www.popsike.com/pix/20100412/170466232268.jpg)
AFAIK, this album was only issued on CD (with this cover) in Japan (and I'm not 100% certain of that either to be honest). But the contents is available in the "Stravinsky Complete Edition" and the "Boulez conducts Stravinsky" boxes on DG. Dumbarton Oaks and the Ebony Concerto are avaialbale on an Originals issue along with the Berg Chamber concerto... A pity, because the cover is quite attractive, as was that of the original LP issue of the album with Stravinkys songs:

(https://img.discogs.com/i1TaoCDiO69zphB9Ivtsy7DEu2c=/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-3442385-1330543819.jpeg.jpg)
When transferred to CD, the used a plain covers (as usual with DG's "20th Century Classics" series)

Rafael, now I need to listen to Dumbarton Oaks and Ebony Concerto no thanks to you! ;) ;D But, seriously, those are fine Boulez performances. His Dumbarton Oaks may very well be my favorite performance of the work.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky ?????RARE DG CD PROMO OF BOULEZ?????
Post by: ritter on March 04, 2017, 06:49:55 AM
Rafael, now I need to listen to Dumbarton Oaks and Ebony Concerto no thanks to you! ;) ;D But, seriously, those are fine Boulez performances. His Dumbarton Oaks may very well be my favorite performance of the work.
Yep,  a great performance IMHO. The tempi are just right,, and that airiness I miss in the Erato Pulcinella is fully captured here. I couldn't now say which is my favourite performance of this wonderful work,  though. ..
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky ?????RARE DG CD PROMO OF BOULEZ?????
Post by: Mirror Image on March 04, 2017, 07:24:20 AM
Yep,  a great performance IMHO. The tempi are just right,, and that airiness I miss in the Erato Pulcinella is fully captured here. I couldn't now say which is my favourite performance of this wonderful work,  though. ..

Craft has a rather excellent Dumbarton Oaks that I’d rank highly along side of Boulez’s.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: James on March 04, 2017, 08:50:25 AM
My favorite for Agon (other than the composer's closely miked warts-n-all recording, and later featured on a great 3 disc set on Sony, Ballets Vol. II) .. is the Naxos disc, which features a great, great program. From start to finish a really strong 'album'. For chamber-oriented music, excellently performed, recorded, programmed .. the Decca twofer entitled "Chamber Works & Rarities" .. it includes "Dumbarton" and a broad variety of thoughtful & imaginative musical compositions.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky ?????RARE DG CD PROMO OF BOULEZ?????
Post by: snyprrr on March 04, 2017, 09:49:12 AM
(http://www.popsike.com/pix/20100412/170466232268.jpg)
AFAIK, this album was only issued on CD (with this cover) in Japan (and I'm not 100% certain of that either to be honest). But the contents is available in the "Stravinsky Complete Edition" and the "Boulez conducts Stravinsky" boxes on DG. Dumbarton Oaks and the Ebony Concerto are avaialbale on an Originals issue along with the Berg Chamber concerto... A pity, because the cover is quite attractive, as was that of the original LP issue of the album with Stravinkys songs:

(https://img.discogs.com/i1TaoCDiO69zphB9Ivtsy7DEu2c=/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-3442385-1330543819.jpeg.jpg)
When transferred to CD, the used a plain covers (as usual with DG's "20th Century Classics" series)

I'm trying to avoid those DG Boxes, even though most of either are mandatory. This French/Japanese "Promo" has just those remaining items one desires but can only get in those Boxes. That "Songs" CD is also more expensive than I'd hoped, and I can't tell if only ArkivBurns are available...
Yep,  a great performance IMHO. The tempi are just right,, and that airiness I miss in the Erato Pulcinella is fully captured here. I couldn't now say which is my favourite performance of this wonderful work,  though. ..

I enjoyed Boulez's 'Dumbarton' more than the Orpheus CE. I thought 'Shadow Dances' was going to be mandatory, but I'm not sure I like their glossy style. 'Octet' was the best thing I heard on their album, though the '2 Pieces' for SQ was more unbuttoned than the AlbanBergQ.

My favorite for Agon (other than the composer's closely miked warts-n-all recording, and later featured on a great 3 disc set on Sony, Ballets Vol. II) .. is the Naxos disc, which features a great, great program. From start to finish a really strong 'album'. For chamber-oriented music, excellently performed, recorded, programmed .. the Decca twofer entitled "Chamber Works & Rarities" .. it includes "Dumbarton" and a broad variety of thoughtful & imaginative musical compositions.

I just did a survey of the Ragtime-Octet-Pastorale-Concertino with the Ashkenazy you mentioned (which I have), the Boston Symphony Chamber Players and the Orpheus. The BSCP trumped them all in charm (though, some reviewers don't like them at all), and the Orpheus really sound too L.A. in comparison- their 'Ragtime' was just awfully non-raggy, just listen to the BSCP in comparison. The Ashkenazy set definitely has a "European" feel to it whilst the BSCP have a much looser, "American jazzy" feel. Props to Chailly also in the 'Octet'.

As per the 2nd disc in that Decca set, I'm really coming around to Dutoit. I thought his Concerto in D is one of the most charming, and "right" (Marriner I liked the best; Karajan not-so-much). But, Dutoit's 'Dumbarton' is just a tweak slow in the 'Vivace' opening, which Boulez rectifies (Igor's "lugano" recording is waaay too fast).

The Dutoit disc with Apollo-Dumbarton-DConcertantes-ConcertoD - I'm am converted to his 'Apollo' now- anyhow, that's about a 1stChoice.


Heady times here, oy vey, my head spinning....



Anyhow- between Decca's 'Chamber Works & Rarities' and the MTT/RCA 'Stravinsky in Hollywood', you can at least get a wide wide sampling of Igor's lesser know works. The MTT especially has such a varied programme that it cancels out a lot of other buying options.



Marriner's LA Chamber LP has never fully been issued on NewMedia. His Concerto in D is the best I've heard so far.


Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky IGOR PANIC BUYING SO FAR
Post by: snyprrr on March 04, 2017, 10:08:05 AM
hERE'S WHAT i HAD GOING IN:

1) 3 Symphonies: Igor/CBS

2) Crossley/Salonen Piano+Orchestra/SONY

3) 'Chamber Works & Rarities' Ashkenazy/Decca

4) Apollo+Orpheus    Lubbock/ASV

5) Apollo+Orpheus+Agon    Craft/Naxos

6) string quartets    AlbanBergQ/EMI

7) ;Hommage a Stravinsky      Schleiermacher+Friends/MDG (includes Berio, Carter, Boulez, Denisov...)

8) Concerto in D     Karajan/DG

9) 6 different 'Sacres' (not really for current purposes) but, includes Salonen's 'Symphony in 3 Mvmts', Inbal's '4 Etudes'.
    Colin Davis's 'Petrushka', and minor bits from Mackerras (Dorati/Decca, nIbal/Teldec, Salonen/SONY, Barenboim/Teldec,    Mackerras/CfP, Davis/Philips)

10) Complete Violin+Piano     Mustonen/van Keulen/Philips

11) Sonata+Serenade    Peter Serkin/NewWorld

12) Choral Music    Igor/SONY  (Threni....)

13) 'Stravinsky in Hollywood'    MTT/RCA







Here's the panic buying so far (I think I'm keeping it together pretty good so far)


1) 'The Flood/Variations'     Knussen/DG

2) Pulcinella+Jeu des Cartes       Abbado/DG

3) Piano Music (w/Bartok)      Ranki/Apex-Teldec



Here's what we're considering:

1) 'The Fairy's Kiss'     Knussen/DG

2) 'Le Chant du Rossignol'     either Dutoit or Chailly

3) 'Dumbaron Oaks-Ebony Concerto'       Boulez/DG French/Japanese Promo

4) 'Songs'    Boulez/DG   $$$ $$$

5) 2 Piano Music (w/Bartok)      Kontarsky/DG   $$$ $$$

6)



That pretty much catches me up (minus Operas, Les Noces). Then there's a few duplicates, such as Dutoit's 2 Symphonies (or Karajan), maybe Jarvi's 'Orpheus' (???), or whatnot....

I realized I don't have a 'Firebird', (listening to Rattle now), but I think I'd go for Dutoit first.

And, for current purposes, I was hoping to exclude 'Petrushka' but, all I have is Davis/Philips... maybe Boulez/SONY??...



nickle and dimin' me here.....
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky LES NOCES.... gesuntheit!!
Post by: Mirror Image on March 05, 2017, 07:22:05 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91ddhNXjMdL._SL1500_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91WgiqKBo3L._SL1500_.jpg)

Reuss has been my long time favorite for vibrancy, crispness, precision, clarity, recording quality ...
Eotvos is still I believe the only recording of the 1917 version for full orchestra.
You could also get Rex Lawson on pianola, Stravinsky's transcription.

Of other recordings of standard version that I've heard Stravinsky's own is not that well played nor recorded, Craft's second (Naxos) is ok but not particularly memorable, Ancerl is very good but the recording shows a bit of age, Gergiev is manic, Currentzis I have but haven't listened to yet.

Actually, you forgot that Craft did indeed record BOTH versions of Les noces as found here:

(http://ecsmedia.pl/c/stravinsky-symphony-of-wind-instruments-les-noces-chant-du-rossignol-b-iext47796414.jpg)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky IGOR PANIC BUYING SO FAR
Post by: Jo498 on March 05, 2017, 07:33:25 AM
5) 2 Piano Music (w/Bartok)      Kontarsky/DG   $$$ $$$
This can be had for 12 EUR "used - very good" at amazon.de, but the shipping will probably be expensive if they ship to the US at all...

A lot of this "20th century classics" DG series is worth getting but unfortunately while some can be found cheaply other have been long out of print or are very expensive.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky IGOR PANIC BUYING SO FAR
Post by: snyprrr on March 05, 2017, 08:21:12 AM
This can be had for 12 EUR "used - very good" at amazon.de, but the shipping will probably be expensive if they ship to the US at all...

A lot of this "20th century classics" DG series is worth getting but unfortunately while some can be found cheaply other have been long out of print or are very expensive.

Well, when I say "expensive" I mean $14.99 :laugh:

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky VARIATIONS: Knussen vs MTT
Post by: snyprrr on March 05, 2017, 08:31:48 AM
Variations

The Knussen arrived... I went straight for the 'Variations', having only know the MTT, with its somewhat recessed acoustic. Well, wow, first off one notices the speed- Knussen takes a minute less than MTT, in a five minute piece!! And Knussen's recording has everything delineated and clean, clearing up what I struggled to hear in the MTT. The music itself seems to make much more sense here- I never quite "got" what was going on in the MTT, being I'd never heard the work before.

As a Serial type Avant piece from a Master, how do the 'Variations' stack up against any other Master's  similar work- who does it remind you of- what's going on here? I'm not sure I got a bead other than "post-Webern"- it just seems like a nice, crystalline Serialtype work, different sections exploited, registers...

anyhow, Knussen certainly clarifies the work,...


Also, the 'Requiem Canticles' ... ahhhh, what to say?...

Haven't made it to 'The Flood' or 'Abraham & Isaac', but,... eh,... can someone pre-warn me or something?... I don't think I'm up for Biblical Igor Hollywood singing... hold my hand 0:)

Knussen's programme really does Igor service! ;)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 05, 2017, 10:17:44 AM
Variations

The Knussen arrived... I went straight for the 'Variations', having only know the MTT, with its somewhat recessed acoustic. Well, wow, first off one notices the speed- Knussen takes a minute less than MTT, in a five minute piece!! And Knussen's recording has everything delineated and clean, clearing up what I struggled to hear in the MTT. The music itself seems to make much more sense here- I never quite "got" what was going on in the MTT, being I'd never heard the work before.

As a Serial type Avant piece from a Master, how do the 'Variations' stack up against any other Master's  similar work- who does it remind you of- what's going on here? I'm not sure I got a bead other than "post-Webern"- it just seems like a nice, crystalline Serialtype work, different sections exploited, registers...

anyhow, Knussen certainly clarifies the work,...


Also, the 'Requiem Canticles' ... ahhhh, what to say?...

Haven't made it to 'The Flood' or 'Abraham & Isaac', but,... eh,... can someone pre-warn me or something?... I don't think I'm up for Biblical Igor Hollywood singing... hold my hand 0:)

Knussen's programme really does Igor service! ;)

One fabulous disc!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky LES NOCES.... gesuntheit!!
Post by: Drasko on March 05, 2017, 10:37:34 AM
Actually, you forgot that Craft did indeed record BOTH versions of Les noces as found here:

(http://ecsmedia.pl/c/stravinsky-symphony-of-wind-instruments-les-noces-chant-du-rossignol-b-iext47796414.jpg)

Yes, I tend to forget it because it was never released on CD to best of my knowledge.

But if one has a turntable (it might be available as a download as of recently) it's definitely worth hearing as it includes 1917 full orchestra version and not the standard 1923 but two movements of 1919 version for pianola, two cimbaloms, harmonium and percussions which Stravinsky never finished.

Stravinsky really spent a long time searching for the right orchestration for Les Noces, and I think he did succeed in the end as the final 1923 version is just perfect, I much prefer it to earlier efforts/drafts. 
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky VARIATIONS: Knussen vs MTT
Post by: Mahlerian on March 05, 2017, 10:54:14 AM
As a Serial type Avant piece from a Master, how do the 'Variations' stack up against any other Master's  similar work- who does it remind you of- what's going on here? I'm not sure I got a bead other than "post-Webern"- it just seems like a nice, crystalline Serialtype work, different sections exploited, registers...

Stravinsky was certainly aware of and interested in the kind of music being written by his younger colleagues, from Carter to Boulez.  A lot of things in their music seem not to have filtered into his, like Carter's penchant for Varese-like bursts of pure percussion or Boulez's gamelan-like sonorities.  Still, the fragmentation of the row that you hear in the Variations is definitely in line with their aesthetics.

Haven't made it to 'The Flood' or 'Abraham & Isaac', but,... eh,... can someone pre-warn me or something?... I don't think I'm up for Biblical Igor Hollywood singing... hold my hand 0:)

Abraham and Isaac is about as far from Hollywood as one can get; it's set in Hebrew to a very sparse accompaniment with a heavily ornamented solo singer's line.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ritter on March 05, 2017, 11:02:49 AM
Yes, I tend to forget it because it was never released on CD to best of my knowledge.

But if one has a turntable (it might be available as a download as of recently) it's definitely worth hearing as it includes 1917 full orchestra version and not the standard 1923 but two movements of 1919 version for pianola, two cimbaloms, harmonium and percussions which Stravinsky never finished.
...
They've included this disc in the big "Complete Album Collection" box on Sony. Good to have it on CD (I've owned the LP for ages, but don't have a turntable these days)...

One fabulous disc!
A resounding +1...really top-notch!
(http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/imgs/s300x300/4470682.jpg)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Drasko on March 05, 2017, 11:20:59 AM
They've included this disc in the big "Complete Album Collection" box on Sony. Good to have it on CD (I've owned the LP for ages, but don't have a turntable these days)...

That's good, finally on CD. For those who might want a single CD rather than 56 CD box, there is a relatively recent French recording of 1923 plus 1919 fragment, a shortish CD which I haven't heard:

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ritter on March 05, 2017, 11:27:04 AM
That's good, finally on CD. For those who might want a single CD rather than 56 CD box, there is a relatively recent French recording of 1923 plus 1919 fragment, a shortish CD which I haven't heard:


That is a very interesting CD, particularly because it offers a rather different and fresh approach of the standard, definitive 1923 version..one I find less folksy and more urbane...interesting, I repeat.  :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Drasko on March 05, 2017, 12:50:13 PM
That is a very interesting CD, particularly because it offers a rather different and fresh approach of the standard, definitive 1923 version..one I find less folksy and more urbane...interesting, I repeat.  :)

Thanks, I'll keep it in mind. I'd quite like to hear that kind of performance, even if not completely successful.

I was always thinking Boulez would go for that approach but that recording has proven bit difficult to find at reasonable price.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on March 06, 2017, 12:35:06 PM
One fabulous disc!

Seriously having problems with yer boy Charlie W's piece, though. Had to turn it off twice already...I was sure I would like it, but from the get-go I'm like, What is this _____? Sooooo busy... after all this sparse and spare Igor, Charlie's piece comes off as "trying to please"... who?, I dunno...

maybe I'll make it through it on a rainy day??
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky CHAILLY vs DUTOIT in "Le Chant du Rossignol"
Post by: snyprrr on March 06, 2017, 12:39:50 PM
Le Chant du Rossignol (1917)

I didn't know Igor had written a 'Miraculous Mandarin' too?!?! Seems this work is an anomaly... an actual TonePoem... anyhow, I like the Digital recordings by Chailly and Dutoit. Chailly's is a little more diamond edged bright, whereas Dutoit has "frosting"... I'm leaning towards Dutoit just because of the smoothness...

what say ye?

ANY VERSION has to have that correct "ticking" rhythm... which I found lacking in Boulez/DG... but found in Chailly and Dutoit...
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky CHAILLY vs DUTOIT in "Le Chant du Rossignol"
Post by: Mirror Image on March 06, 2017, 01:35:05 PM
Le Chant du Rossignol (1917)

I didn't know Igor had written a 'Miraculous Mandarin' too?!?! Seems this work is an anomaly... an actual TonePoem... anyhow, I like the Digital recordings by Chailly and Dutoit. Chailly's is a little more diamond edged bright, whereas Dutoit has "frosting"... I'm leaning towards Dutoit just because of the smoothness...

what say ye?

ANY VERSION has to have that correct "ticking" rhythm... which I found lacking in Boulez/DG... but found in Chailly and Dutoit...

Check out Boulez’s with the Orchestre de France on Erato. One of my favorite performances of the work.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: kishnevi on March 06, 2017, 06:49:12 PM
Making my way through the Columbia Iggie Fyvich conducts Iggie Fyvich set. Tonight it was the "little" operas: Le Rossignol and Mavra. I have to say that Igor Fyodorovich does a rather good job of presenting his own works. The sonics sometimes suffer, but even a well known thing like the Firebird Suite comes out well, compared to big modern conductors.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky OFF-BEAT igor CONDUCTORS
Post by: snyprrr on March 07, 2017, 05:42:29 AM
Colin Davis

I have been smelling what Davis had cooked, and there does seem to be quite a bit of interest going on here. The early 'Oedipus' on EMI, I believe an album of concertos (?), and, most recently discovered last night, the two big Symphonies on Philips. These are especially vibrant readings as compared with Boulez, Solti, and Dutoit.


Mata

Rumors of an incredible 'Symphony in 3 Movements'


Maazel

I said YES to his 'Symphony of Psalms' and ...'3 Mvmts' on RCA. C'mon guys, how can't you like this, as compared to, say, Boulez/DG?

Bernstein '...3 Mvmts' was just a touch too fast and hairy...IPO/DG...


One fabulous disc!

I read your review of Boulez Symphonies/DG.... nice... must have been written before your OneWordPhase :laugh: ... glad you gave it one for...


HOWEVER

That IS the best 'Symphonies of Wind Instruments' EVER... why no one else??.... I mean, who else uses the original version??????
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky COLIN DAVIS: SERIOUS QUESTION
Post by: snyprrr on March 07, 2017, 12:01:10 PM
Colin Davis

I have been smelling what Davis had cooked, and there does seem to be quite a bit of interest going on here. The early 'Oedipus' on EMI, I believe an album of concertos (?), and, most recently discovered last night, the two big Symphonies on Philips. These are especially vibrant readings as compared with Boulez, Solti, and Dutoit.

ok, I've hit my first Indiana Jones moment...

I see the London SO recording of the two Symphonies that I enjoyed so much is on that Philips 2CD Compilation, w/ Markevitch.... and then I see the Philips CD of the two Symphonies with the Bavarian Radio SO...


OK, so, Davis had an Igor career on LP (I'm assuming the LSO Symphonies are early 70s?), and then redid most all of it in the CD era? I see a LSO 'Le Sacre', and also a Concertgebouw.


So, has anyone compared the LSO Symphonies with the BRSO? The former is on YT; the latter I heard samples of on the Davis Decca/Philips Box. Am I correct that the BRSO versions is not at all what the LSO are?



SEE HOW PEOPLE GO NUTTY ON SILLY HOBBIES LIKE THIS???!!!!!!! (of course, not me!!)




I didn't want to introduce the Symphonies into our current Thread Discussion yet,... mice and men...
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky SONATA/ CONCERTO FOR 2 PIANOS
Post by: snyprrr on March 07, 2017, 12:13:08 PM
This can be had for 12 EUR "used - very good" at amazon.de, but the shipping will probably be expensive if they ship to the US at all...

A lot of this "20th century classics" DG series is worth getting but unfortunately while some can be found cheaply other have been long out of print or are very expensive.

I thought that reissue, with "Debussy Ravel Stravinsky" only had one of the IS works,... and it does, but, it's the one (Sonata) I don't have, so, yay, saved another $15!! The incredibly well filled 'Chamber Works & Rarities' (Decca2CD) has Askenazy & Gavrilov's Concerto for 2 Pianos.

i WOULD HAVE LOVED TO HAVE HEARD iGOR'S '10 pIECES FOR pIANO (sorry)

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky THE FAIRY'S KISS- KNUSSEN
Post by: snyprrr on March 09, 2017, 07:57:02 AM
Le Baiser de la Fee

Divertimento

As much as I want to be the PerfectConsumerist, I just don't think I can sit through 50mins. of faux-Tchaikovsky, frankly somewhat boring ballet music,... sorry,...

Do any of you sit around basking in this score more often than once a year? I mean, it's long, and you have to admit that it is pretty old fashioned, semi-snoozy type music,... no? Really? This is SOOOO exciting that you will fight over it?

I just don't believe it.


I can hear Karl telling me how great it is, but I still wouldn't believe that he breaks out the Knussen on a weekly, or monthly, basis. What am I missing here that I am about ready to dismiss this work from serious consideration (maybe it's that I'd have to spend HARD EARNED MONIES on faux-Tchaikovsky/Stravinsky Ballet Music... I mean, I ALREADY know what it is... I've been sampling YT all morning... I just can't get it up for this...


drugs aren't helping :(



btw- is Knussen THAT much better than Atherton?



Don't get me wrong- I enjoy my boring Igor as much as anyone,... but 50mins. of this stuff might make me angry... I can't afford that... what do I do??
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky THE FAIRY'S KISS- KNUSSEN
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 09, 2017, 08:36:31 AM
what do I do??

Easy: forget the complete ballet and just buy the Divertimento.

Sarge
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on March 09, 2017, 08:38:52 AM
I’m not about to argue the case for Le baiser de la fée, but all I can say is I enjoy the work and don’t find it ‘boring’ at all.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 09, 2017, 09:32:29 AM
Le Baiser de la Fee

[ snip ]

I can hear Karl telling me how great it is, but I still wouldn't believe that he breaks out the Knussen on a weekly, or monthly, basis.

[ snip ]


It is technically true that I have not listened to Le Baiser de la fée on a weekly, or even a monthly, basis;  from that standpoint, your disbelief is vindicated.  But that is an accident of my schedule and listening habits, not any reflection on the piece.

So I state my surety that I can listen to the complete ballet, at least once weekly;  and to that end, I do undertake to fulfill that requirement, beginning today.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky THE FAIRY'S KISS- KNUSSEN
Post by: Mahlerian on March 09, 2017, 09:53:14 AM
Le Baiser de la Fee

As much as I want to be the PerfectConsumerist, I just don't think I can sit through 50mins. of faux-Tchaikovsky, frankly somewhat boring ballet music,... sorry,...

It's not faux-Tchaikovsky, it's actual Tchaikovsky run through the Igorizer a few times, and as someone who enjoys both Romantic and Modern music, the score is a delight.  It's lean and energetic and just slightly sentimental.  What is there to dislike?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 09, 2017, 09:58:38 AM
...all I can say is I enjoy the work and don’t find it ‘boring’ at all.

So I state my surety that I can listen to the complete ballet, at least once weekly

the score is a delight.  It's lean and energetic and just slightly sentimental.  What is there to dislike?

I agree with you three gentlemen. snyprrr is, of course, completely bonkers  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: cilgwyn on March 09, 2017, 10:14:19 AM
A question! What recording would you recommend above all others to someone who doesn't have Les Noces in their collection,and has never even heard it? I have looked at lots of reviews,on more than one occasion,on various sites,but there seem to be so many differnt opinions on this work,and editions,I think?! ::) :-\
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: kishnevi on March 09, 2017, 10:33:05 AM
A question! What recording would you recommend above all others to someone who doesn't have Les Noces in their collection,and has never even heard it? I have looked at lots of reviews,on more than one occasion,on various sites,but there seem to be so many differnt opinions on this work,and editions,I think?! ::) :-\

Audio only:  I would suggest Bernstein.

But at some point you should see this



Where it is danced in Nijinska's choreography.  And contains a bonus with members of the original Nijinska production talking about how horrible and humorous it was to work under her.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on March 09, 2017, 12:50:54 PM
A question! What recording would you recommend above all others to someone who doesn't have Les Noces in their collection,and has never even heard it? I have looked at lots of reviews,on more than one occasion,on various sites,but there seem to be so many differnt opinions on this work,and editions,I think?! ::) :-\

Someone above indicated the Reuss on HarmoniaMundi.


I agree with you three gentlemen. snyprrr is, of course, completely bonkers  ;D

Sarge

HA!! I was just testing you all to see if I could weed out any Unbelievers in the Thread ;) carry on :P

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky BOULEZ BOX SUPER SUPER CHEAP CHEAP????
Post by: snyprrr on March 09, 2017, 12:56:44 PM
There's no way I can get around the Boulez Box DG... for the last two discs... biting the bullet on this one... can I get it SUPER Cheap?? $23 is the lowest I see (incl sh)



I CAN SEE THE LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL!! 0:)

Now it's just a matter of $$$ $$$ $$$


 :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky GORLATCH on SONY ??
Post by: snyprrr on March 09, 2017, 01:02:44 PM
Music for Piano and Orchestra

Entremont/Rosen CBS/SONY
Beroff EMI

Crossley SONY
Mustonen Decca

Bavouzet Hyperion
Donohoe Chandos
Gorlatch SONY


I just realized that Salonen/SONY is a shade muffled compared to the first two, which have their own recording issues. The Ashkenazy/Decca set with Mustonen boasts much clearer sound, but newcomer Alexei Gorlatch/SONY seems he might have the best sound of all. I can only hear samples, does anyone have the scoop on this 2015 release?

He neglects the 'Movements', but adds the early Sonata for Piano. The sound for the solo piano work is pretty crisp and clean, I sure hope someone's got the skinny...
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky BOULEZ BOX SUPER SUPER CHEAP CHEAP????
Post by: North Star on March 09, 2017, 01:07:30 PM
There's no way I can get around the Boulez Box DG... for the last two discs... biting the bullet on this one... can I get it SUPER Cheap?? $23 is the lowest I see (incl sh)



I CAN SEE THE LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL!! 0:)

Now it's just a matter of $$$ $$$ $$$


 :'( :'( :'(
You know you want to...  >:D

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky THE 3 SYMPHONIES
Post by: snyprrr on March 09, 2017, 01:31:20 PM
Symphony of Psalms                Symphony in C                     Symphony in 3 Movements
           X                                             X                                                 X                              Jarvi-Suisse Romande (SEPARATE)

          X                                              X                                                 X                               Craft-St.Luke?? (SEPARATE)

          X                                              X                                                 X                               STRAVINSKY/CBS

                                                           X                                                 X                               Colin Davis-LSO

                                                          X                                                  X                               Colin Davis-Bavarian Radio

                                                          X                                                  X                               Bernstein-Israel

                                                          X                                                  X                               Dutoit-Suisse Romande

                                                          X                                                  X                               Ashkenazy

                X                                        X                                                  X                               Solti-Chicago

                X                                        X                                                  X                               Gielen(Hanssler)

                X                                        X                                                  X                               TilsonThomas-LSO

                X                                                                                            X                                Boulez-Berlin

               X                                         X                                                 X                                 Rattle-Berlin

                                                          X                                                                                     Karajan-Berlin

                                                                                                              X                                 Rattle-Birmingham

                                                                                                              X                                  Salonen-Philharmonia

              X                                                                                              X                                  Maazel(RCA)

                                                                                                              X                                   Conlon(eRATO)



What of import have I missed?

Honestly, Igor's still stacks up, eh? I just chose the Rattle as a "fussy" alternative (Boulez I'll have by default).

 I believe that Karajan reigns supreme in the "C",- with many failing here over a weak oboe (not so with ANY Berlin recording, of course, lol!!). All the Suisse Romande recordings (Ansermet,Dutoit,Jarvi) all have a weak oboe in the "C". Davis/LSO is biting, but has the weakest oboe of all. Solti's player is almost up to Berlin standards, as is MTT's.

As far as "taking it too slow" in the opening of "3 Mvmts", only Davis/LSO, Salonen, Rattle/Birmingham, and a few others don't- this mvmt shouldn't last but 9mins.- at 10mins. we start to hear the clunk in the opening.

Jarvi can be good, but is always let down by the cavernous Chandos recordings.

Rattle IS "fussy", but, that actually aids in studying- and you have to have the Berliners, Between Rattle and Boulez, I might have to go with Maazel's more vibrant recording and human sounding performance (in 'Psalms' and '3Mvmts').


Colin Davis/LSO has the most power and awe, but the LSO isn't Berlin, though they are very good. I haven't heard anything good from Davis's Philips remake.


Bernstein... not so much...

MTT... eh... mm.... it's okaaay... rather have Berlin...

eh



meh



,,,


You know you want to...  >:D



ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! :laugh:

Yes, it has a good portion of FirstChoices, but a) it has more than I want, and, b) I'm way too picky... I certainly wouldn't want Ashkenazy in the 2 Symphonies, and so forth... and, a lot of these recordings are already in a cheap guise... I went over this last night and calculated the cost of surgically getting what I wanted out of it...

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 09, 2017, 01:46:46 PM


Audio only:  I would suggest Bernstein.


This is curiously synchronous with today's arrival of the Chung CD; but that DG CD with Les noces and the Mass was another of the first 25 CDs I bought. I remember the afternoon that I listened to it. I mean, I can remember myself listening to the disc, I'm not saying I remember how it sounded, really. I remember that I didn't care for the piece (!) but you know what? I didn't care for the Shostakovich Fourth the first time, at the same period in my life and under similar circs.

Now, of course, (a) I love the piece, and (b) the very rare musical quarrel notwithstanding, I've become a huge Lenny fan. So: yes, time to give this recording a fresh shot.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on March 09, 2017, 02:37:24 PM


This is curiously synchronous with today's arrival of the Chung CD; but that DG CD with Les noces and the Mass was another of the first 25 CDs I bought. I remember the afternoon that I listened to it. I mean, I can remember myself listening to the disc, I'm not saying I remember how it sounded, really. I remember that I didn't care for the piece (!) but you know what? I didn't care for the Shostakovich Fourth the first time, at the same period in my life and under similar circa.

Now, of course, (a) I love the piece, and (b) the very rare musical quarrel notwithstanding, I've become a huge Lenny fan. So: yes, time to give this recording a fresh shot.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

What about MY needs?? >:D
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky PIANO & oRCHESTRA
Post by: snyprrr on March 09, 2017, 05:18:21 PM
Music for Piano and Orchestra

Entremont/Rosen CBS/SONY
Beroff EMI

Crossley SONY
Mustonen Decca

Bavouzet Hyperion
Donohoe Chandos
Gorlatch SONY


I just realized that Salonen/SONY is a shade muffled compared to the first two, which have their own recording issues. The Ashkenazy/Decca set with Mustonen boasts much clearer sound, but newcomer Alexei Gorlatch/SONY seems he might have the best sound of all. I can only hear samples, does anyone have the scoop on this 2015 release?

He neglects the 'Movements', but adds the early Sonata for Piano. The sound for the solo piano work is pretty crisp and clean, I sure hope someone's got the skinny...

Added the Hyperion and Chandos issues... now we have seven somewhat fullish cycles...I already mention my issue with Salonen's sonics... anyone?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: kishnevi on March 09, 2017, 05:48:59 PM
You ought to look into the Columbia/Sony box, the Iggy Fyvich conducts Iggy Fyvich set that I currently am going through.
The sonics are not always the best, but Igor's conducting more than makes up for it. It's got the Rosen/Entremont recordings.


At about $1 per CD it ought to be in your budget.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on March 09, 2017, 06:17:18 PM
You ought to look into the Columbia/Sony box, the Iggy Fyvich conducts Iggy Fyvich set that I currently am going through.
The sonics are not always the best, but Igor's conducting more than makes up for it. It's got the Rosen/Entremont recordings.


At about $1 per CD it ought to be in your budget.

I'm just not a BigBox kinda guy :-\

I have seen the component boxes from the early 90s, I have Vol.11 'Sacred Works', and of course the 3 Symphonies. But, for instance, the 'Concertos' set, mm, Stern, no thanks, and though the Entremont performances were nice, the reverb was blowin me away.

And I'm not all that... hrmm, ... big on Opera... so, all these BigBoxes just have to much "I'm not ready for"... though, I here his 'Rake' is still the best... I know I'm having trouble beating the 3 Symphonies...

But, one cannot deny Dutoit, Boulez, Chailly, and a host of others, Rattle, Maazel, Colin Davis, Knussen, Craft, ...and the fact that each comes with its own sonics... I don't think I could deal with ALL Columbia recordings, with that... vintage... sound,... good as it may be here and there...

For the Boulez DG Box, I'm only interested in 2.5 out of 6. I really don't want his DG Sacre-Fire-Petrshka IN MY PRESENCE!!!! But, such are the slings and arrows....


But, both the SONY and DG Boxes  are beyond the scope of my endeavors- I'm an egalitarian at heart 0:)- I want all the worthies represented, if possible...


now, enough about me :laugh:
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 09, 2017, 07:08:05 PM
I'm just not a BigBox kinda guy

It's less than two inches deep.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mirror Image on March 09, 2017, 07:38:01 PM
A question! What recording would you recommend above all others to someone who doesn't have Les Noces in their collection,and has never even heard it? I have looked at lots of reviews,on more than one occasion,on various sites,but there seem to be so many differnt opinions on this work,and editions,I think?! ::) :-\

I’m not a great admirer of Les noces as many are here, but Bernstein’s performance on DG is extremely impressive.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Monsieur Croche on March 09, 2017, 08:03:20 PM
You ought to look into the Columbia/Sony box, the Iggy Fyvich conducts Iggy Fyvich set that I currently am going through.
The sonics are not always the best, but Igor's conducting more than makes up for it. It's got the Rosen/Entremont recordings.


At about $1 per CD it ought to be in your budget.

I fully agree. 

But:  I have two very vehement complaints about what is not in this set.
1.) Absent from the box set is the 1965—Columbia Masterworks Les Noces conducted by Robert Craft as “supervised by the composer.” Soloists for “Les Noces” were: Mildred Allen (soprano), Adrienne Albert (mezzo- soprano), Jack Litten (tenor) and William Metcalfe (bass); the choir is the Ithaca College Concert Choir under the direction of Gregg Smith, with the Columbia Percussion Ensemble. [Columbia Masterworks MS 6991/mono ML 6391] It is sung in Russian. IMO, this Les Noces is still the best one out there. Sadly, I believe it is out of print :-(
(If memory serves, the box set includes that ghastly disastrous Bernstein recording with its line up of four all-star pianist-composers at the pianos (Aaron Copland, Lukas Foss, Roger Sessions, etc.), and it was sung -- egads! in English.  Simply dreadful; avoid at all costs.)

2.) The Petrushka in the box set is not the recording issued when the original series was being released one at a time! The box set rendition is the 1911 version, from an earlier recording with a Hollywood orchestra.  The original series release was the revised version in a truly sparkling, highly animated and far superior performance (truly much improved over the original, while minus the 1911 double woodwind sections; the revision is clarified, the piano part much extended.)  I'm a thinkin' that once the composer was dead, Columbia used the 1911 version in the box set to avoid paying royalties, the earlier Russian version having no copyright.  :-/

Concerto per due pianoforti soli: Understandably, Columbia went 'archive document' on this one, with the composer and his son, Soulima, the pianists.  To me, the best recording (also with the composer having been consulted by the pianists) is on Nonesuch, with Ursula Oppens and Paul Jacobs. 
https://www.discogs.com/Igor-Stravinsky-Paul-Jacobs-3-Ursula-Oppens-Music-For-Two-Pianos-Piano-Four-Hands/release/2872741
Stravinsky directed these pianists to end the final movement on the penultimate chord in the score, at that time deeming the ultimate resolution in the original (still unrevised in currently available scores) as unnecessary (a very 20th century musicological authoritative documentation of a revision -- on the liner notes of a recording.)

Stravinsky was not, earlier, a great conductor.  By the time he was eighty, when he made these recordings for Columbia, he was, at least for his own works, a fine and great conductor, who knew exactly the sound he wanted, and he got it from the players. 

The later serial works, however, are often less than great performances due to the players lack of general familiarity with the style and vocabulary, and probably not a great deal of rehearsal time.

The greater body of recordings in that set, all the earlier works, the neoclassical works, are more than fine.  No other recordings so consistently get the perfect tempi, articulation and balance of parts sounding the harmonies as do the Stravinsky-Columbia recordings from the 60's.  It is a lot of music, wonderfully performed, and a helluva bargain.

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 10, 2017, 02:08:58 AM
M. Croche is giving you pearls, here, snypsss  0:)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 10, 2017, 03:45:52 AM
What about MY needs?? >:D

Well, I am aware that I have not yet shared my own preferred recordings of Свадебка. Are you still entertaining the question?  8)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 10, 2017, 03:50:55 AM
(If memory serves, the box set includes that ghastly disastrous Bernstein recording with its line up of four all-star pianist-composers at the pianos (Aaron Copland, Lukas Foss, Roger Sessions, etc.), and it was sung -- egads! in English.

The fourth pianist is Samuel Barber.  I agree that it is not the performance to be recommended . . . but I do enjoy having an alternative in the vernacular.  Happy to consider the fact that, in a qualified sense, I enjoy this account of the piece, something of an eccentricity on my part.


 $:)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 10, 2017, 05:28:48 AM
It's less than two inches deep.

For scale (this is a normal 10-oz. coffee mug)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: kishnevi on March 10, 2017, 11:41:04 AM
Everything in the box I posted is conducted either by Stravinksy himself or Craft under Stravinsky's supervision.  Which is why I keep calling it the Igor conducts Igor box.

The Les Noces does contain the four famous composers as pianists, but the sound is very muddy, which is the main reason I wouldn't recommend it.  So muddy in fact that now that you mention it, I can't be entirely sure that it was sung in Russian and not English.  But I think it was Russian....

I am not at home just now.  I will update with any necessary information when I'm home tonight.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 10, 2017, 11:46:53 AM
For scale (this is a normal 10-oz. coffee mug)

Correction:  The Igor Conducts Igor box is 2⅛" deep.

The Les Noces does contain the four famous composers as pianists, but the sound is very muddy, which is the main reason I wouldn't recommend it.  So muddy in fact that now that you mention it, I can't be entirely sure that it was sung in Russian and not English.  But I think it was Russian....

Confirming that it is English, but between the sound and the angularity of the setting, I do not fault you, friend.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: kishnevi on March 10, 2017, 11:58:21 AM
Correction:  The Igor Conducts Igor box is 2⅛" deep.

Confirming that it is English, but between the sound and the angularity of the setting, I do not fault you, friend.

Thank you.

It is perhaps a Stravinsky thing: I commented on the idiosyncratic setting of the Hebrew text in Abraham and Isaac the other night:  and indeed, I had to concentrate at the beginning of the piece before I could be quite sure it was Hebrew, and not Russian.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 10, 2017, 12:06:02 PM
Although there are works like the Lord's Prayer, Credo & especially the Bogoroditse Dyevo which plug more into the Russian Orthodox choral style tradition, and are quite "grateful" for the voices, in many cases, it was his trademark to write for the voice as if it were . . . an instrument. (I mean, the voice is an instrument, but you get me.)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 10, 2017, 12:09:15 PM
M. Croche's dissatisfaction with this performance of the ballet is underscored by the near-oddity of the English when the groom addresses the bride at the end, and the inadequate sound of the bright, brittle chords.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mahlerian on March 10, 2017, 01:34:54 PM
Although there are works like the Lord's Prayer, Credo & especially the Bogoroditse Dyevo which plug more into the Russian Orthodox choral style tradition, and are quite "grateful" for the voices, in many cases, it was his trademark to write for the voice as if it were . . . an instrument. (I mean, the voice is an instrument, but you get me.)

I maintain that Anthem: The Dove Descending is the best a capella music by a composer who professed to despise a capella singing.  It's also the most mellifluous of his 12-tone works, a subtle and beautiful little gem of a piece.

https://www.youtube.com/v/YnBNG9qu8E0
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on March 10, 2017, 01:50:33 PM
Well, I am aware that I have not yet shared my own preferred recordings of Свадебка. Are you still entertaining the question?  8)

whatever that was... sure ::)

LOL, you people and the "join us, join us" at the BigBoxClub... I'M MAKING MY OWN BOX!!

Maazel... Best Overall Symphony of Psalms... BAM!! 8)

Vengerov... Best Violin Concerto... ZAAP!! POW!! :blank:

Karajan... Best Symphony in C... OH NO HE DIDN'T!! :o


Read 'em an' weep... there's a new sheriff in town, and he's cracking down hard on all BigBoxes... smoke 'em if ya got'em. $:)

M. Croche is giving you pearls, here, snypsss  0:)

I will not partake of those blood cakes you offer!!


Just tryin to saddle me with a bunch of Opera!! >:D Be happy I liked 'Renard' ;) ;D :D :laugh: :P


btw- which one of you is SantaFeListener?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky DIVERTIMENTO
Post by: snyprrr on March 10, 2017, 01:59:28 PM
Easy: forget the complete ballet and just buy the Divertimento.

Sarge

Divertimento for Violin & Piano

I realized I had this (Mustonen/vanKeulen-Philips), and took it to work. I was quite pleased by this, but I must also lay credit at the feet of the performers and the engineers. Everything here screams "White Music", so clean and articulate and precise is the rendering. The music itself practically mattered not, the sheer sound of timbres was reward enough. I was actually surprised, and the music was involved enough, all I heard were the shapes and the sounds, and the oh so white backdrop- perfect Neo-Classicism on display! I might prefer this version to the Orchestral.

So, I have assuaged my need for Knussen at the moment, which is a good thing for rent and gas! ;)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: kishnevi on March 10, 2017, 02:03:38 PM
Everything in the box I posted is conducted either by Stravinksy himself or Craft under Stravinsky's supervision.  Which is why I keep calling it the Igor conducts Igor box.

The Les Noces does contain the four famous composers as pianists, but the sound is very muddy, which is the main reason I wouldn't recommend it.  So muddy in fact that now that you mention it, I can't be entirely sure that it was sung in Russian and not English.  But I think it was Russian....

I am not at home just now.  I will update with any necessary information when I'm home tonight.

Now that I am home:
My set does have Petrushka in the 1911 version.  It was recorded in Hollywood, CA,1961, the orchestra being credited as the Columbia Symphony Orchestra.

But it does strike me that Stravinsky chose to record the 1911 version fourteen years after the 1947 revision.  Perhaps he did not feel the revision was so clearly superior as M. Crioche does?  (The Firebird Suite, by contrast, recorded six years later, is the 1945 revised version.)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky Symphony in f# Op.1
Post by: snyprrr on March 10, 2017, 03:43:12 PM
Symphonie

I have never heard it. Should i probably wait until the current wave of stuff passes? I'm thinking I'll use it as an after-dinner mint to cleanse the palate after this massive binge. I'm guessing it should be pretty cool, but I don't want to foster expectations...
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ritter on March 10, 2017, 03:58:58 PM
M. Croche's dissatisfaction with this performance of the ballet is underscored by the near-oddity of the English when the groom addresses the bride at the end, and the inadequate sound of the bright, brittle chords.
Surprisingly, the French tranlastion by C.-F. Ramuz (quoted by Jean Cocteau in the first volume of his diaries--Le passé défini--and recorded AFAIK only by Boulez , in an almost impossible to find Adès CD) is quite effective and beautiful.

«J'étais loin sur la mer immense.
La demoiselle blanche s'y baignait,
dedans lavait sa robe blanche, sa robe du dimanche


The curious fact is that the only other recording of Les noces conducted by the composer (made in London in the 30s for HMV) is in English as well. I've never heard it, and am not really incined to do so... ::)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky Symphony in f# Op.1
Post by: Mahlerian on March 10, 2017, 04:02:24 PM
Symphonie

I have never heard it. Should i probably wait until the current wave of stuff passes? I'm thinking I'll use it as an after-dinner mint to cleanse the palate after this massive binge. I'm guessing it should be pretty cool, but I don't want to foster expectations...

You mean the Symphony in E-flat?  I think you're confusing it with the Sonata in F# minor, which predates it by a few years.

The early symphony is a decent enough work in the vein of Tchaikovsky and Glazunov, but doesn't contain much that presages the Stravinsky to come.  The scherzo strikes me as the best movement overall.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: kishnevi on March 10, 2017, 04:41:15 PM
Although there are works like the Lord's Prayer, Credo & especially the Bogoroditse Dyevo which plug more into the Russian Orthodox choral style tradition, and are quite "grateful" for the voices, in many cases, it was his trademark to write for the voice as if it were . . . an instrument. (I mean, the voice is an instrument, but you get me.)

Come to think of it...isn't that a charge levelled against Beethoven?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky Symphony in Eb Op.1
Post by: snyprrr on March 10, 2017, 09:39:22 PM
You mean the Symphony in E-flat?

 The scherzo strikes me as the best movement overall.

That's what they say about Glazunov!

Yea, I was hoping for something long and rambly, perhaps, boring, just something old-timey, lol... like I said, I'm going to have to use it as a carrot for the Wrap Party! I'm certainly not expecting things, but I'm sure I'll still be disappointed, lol- I remember having to get really drunk to be able to act like I liked some Tchaikovsky... Glazunov's the one who scares me ???


I've really learned a lot about IgStra in the last few weeks (you can trace my OriginalPost... I mean,...), such as his procedures, how he puts blocks together,... since I am coming late to it this go round, I keep thinking he sounds like Copland and Martinu, but, of course, it's the other way round. But IgStra's works are as chiseled out as Schoenberg's, Webern,- all had relatively short lists, so they compliment one another. Schoenberg's Piano Concerto can simply be looked upon as his 'Concerto in D', or the corresponding Martinu work. Is it IgStra I also hear in Ibert?

The Composers directly influenced by him are specific, no? Copland seems like a mirror image at this point.


But, I don't want to be boring with the obvious- I know I've already bloated the Thread with my droppings- I WILL be guiding past 1000 Posts... I will... so, we might as well have fun for the nest week. :-\



I'm putting on the retro brakes to stave off burnout... I just dumped my paycheck into the Igor trust, lol- I think I have now one version of everything, Operas excluded, Opp. 1-4 excluded, Renard & Noces excluded, Player Piano excluded, and maybe a suite or two... but, I have made sense of Igor to myself, especially 1913-1919 and 1923-1939.

The snyprrr Complete Stravinsky Box will be available shortly
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky OCTET 1923: The Birth of Neo-Classical Cubism
Post by: snyprrr on March 10, 2017, 09:52:09 PM
oCteT (1922-23)

I don't get it. Or, it's "just another funny French piece" inspired by... "Satie". I guess it's just that it doesn't sound like Nielsen or Taffanel or D'Indy (speaking wind music), it was "new" in the way he put the piece together,- and I've been able to see how his way of Composing a Movement is different than typical Sonata Allegro. Is that what I'm supposed to "get".? Le Satie, oui oui, he he he, Pepe le Pew!

I mean, I find it pleasant enough- maybe I'm raking myself trying to find the Hidden Mystery behind it when all it is is a 10min Ceremonial Fanfare?

We can add the SoWI, but, that's an easier piece to like; this one just... is. They say it's the first Cubist work of Music?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky Le c'est es des?
Post by: snyprrr on March 10, 2017, 10:10:26 PM
I can see and hear how his music is Piano based, how he sat at the Piano and wrote. Same with Copland. Varese?

Anyone write a "Stravinsky Cello Concerto"? Or, what are the top works that are modeled after, or sound like, IgStra?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Drasko on March 11, 2017, 02:32:01 AM
Surprisingly, the French tranlastion by C.-F. Ramuz (quoted by Jean Cocteau in the first volume of his diaries--Le passé défini--and recorded AFAIK only by Boulez , in an almost impossible to find Adès CD) is quite effective and beautiful.

«J'étais loin sur la mer immense.
La demoiselle blanche s'y baignait,
dedans lavait sa robe blanche, sa robe du dimanche


Ansermet recording is also in French, I think.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ritter on March 11, 2017, 03:37:18 AM
Ansermet recording is also in French, I think.
Good to know, Draško. Thanks for pointing that one out. This will be an easier way to listen to the Ramuz translation for those interested, as I suppose the Ansermet is more readily available than the Boulez. I myself, nevertheless, find less to enjoy in Ansermet's conducting as years go by  ::)(even if I do not know this particular recording).
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 11, 2017, 04:20:01 AM
Come to think of it...isn't that a charge levelled against Beethoven?

Aye, though possibly it sticks more in that case  0:)

After a performance of the Missa solemnis, the chorus are really wiped out, feeling as if they've been in a Marathon.  All in all, my impression is that singers come out of a performance of the Symphony of Psalms feeling better about life.  Свадебка is something a bit else, but arguably you're fielding an ensemble of soloists, rather than (say) the Atlanta Symphony Chorus.  (I say that, and now I wonder if Robt Shaw conducted the piece . . . which in turn has me wondering if he did it en anglais, aussi.)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 11, 2017, 04:23:49 AM
Surprisingly, the French tranlastion by C.-F. Ramuz (quoted by Jean Cocteau in the first volume of his diaries--Le passé défini--and recorded AFAIK only by Boulez , in an almost impossible to find Adès CD) is quite effective and beautiful.

«J'étais loin sur la mer immense.
La demoiselle blanche s'y baignait,
dedans lavait sa robe blanche, sa robe du dimanche


Très intéressant!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 11, 2017, 04:32:36 AM
Well, I am aware that I have not yet shared my own preferred recordings of Свадебка. Are you still entertaining the question?  8)

whatever that was... sure ::)

Probably my two favorite recordings are Craft's:



And James Wood leading the joined New London and Voronezh Chamber Choirs:



In the tally of the present discussion, add the footnotes that I need to revisit Lenny, and I have yet to settle down to listen to the Eötvös.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 11, 2017, 05:54:06 AM
Cross-post from WAYLt

Игорь Фëдорович [ Igor Fyodorovich (Stravinsky) ]
Свадебка (Les noces), 1917 version
Eötvös


“Even” in this proto-version, a masterpiece and a landmark.  Of course, in the final version, it is yet more strikingly original and incisive.  Once I got past how odd it is to hear (e.g.) woodwinds in this piece, the score strikes a delicious balance between feeling like a natural sequel to Le sacre, yet nevertheless creating its own sonic space (no less, that is, than in the final scoring).  The final page of the score (the groom's tender address) is, I might say, equally touching, while harking a little back (or, forward, really, given the chronology) to the Symphonies d'instruments à vent.  In short, this is not an item only for Stravinsky nerds (unless one feels that the piece itself is reserved unto them), but — not that this is at all likely — a version of the piece fully worth programming.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on March 11, 2017, 08:22:23 AM
Ah, another Stravinsky Day dawns... now it's just a matter of waiting for the mailman :(. Will my mania outlast the postal service's legendary delivery times? gulp

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky !L'HISTORIE du SOLDAT?
Post by: snyprrr on March 11, 2017, 07:34:35 PM
l'Historie du Soldat

Surely I've listened to it at some point, how else would I know this is something I don't want? Huh. All I have is the Clarinet Trio, which I begrudgingly listened to today (Ashkenazy/Decca). Well, hmm, it's got some quite busy sections, I was thinking Ives at one point. The music itself didn't do all that much for me, though I started finding the noisiness endearing. And for a Clarinet Trio, I was taken aback by the noisiness, but, again, that is what was drawing me in, the complexity of the textures.

I suppose the expanded version is due for a hearing. I will have Boulez (not arrived), but for some reason I already have preconceived notions that he's not the right one for this piece. Does the extended version come with and without "vocals"?

I can appreciate the "downhome, lowdown" swampy, jazzy ("American") appeal. The Ashkenazy version had no "jazz" I could discern, so I'm not sure what kind of rendition I was listening to. I have been curiously surprised by IS's "busy phase" which seems to include only 'Le Chant du Rossignol' and this piece. Then, it's off to 'White Music' city.

What's it all about Iggy?

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 13, 2017, 04:41:31 AM
Narration and dialogue, typically, yes.  Sometimes, Peter and the Wolf-like, there is a textless recording.  (I have an idea that I have one such recording, but do I remember which? Nnnooo.)


I love every note of this score, but of course (as I have probably mentioned) I played the Soldier in a college staging of the piece at Wooster;  and we studied it in a Stravinsky seminar at UVa. So, I have most pleasant history with it.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 13, 2017, 04:45:46 AM
Now there I disagree. Being a diehard Boulez fan (no news there  ;) ), I've never warmed to that recording, which I find heavy-handed and lacking in airiness and humor. Boulez's later CSO live recording is vastly superior IMHO.

Regards,

Cheers, Rafael!  Although I have not yet started in on the Pulcinella, this Boulez/CSO account of the Symphony in Three Movements is exquisite, so I owe you great thanks already  8)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ritter on March 13, 2017, 06:37:27 AM
Cheers, Rafael!  Although I have not yet started in on the Pulcinella, this Boulez/CSO account of the Symphony in Three Movements is exquisite, so I owe you great thanks already  8)
My pleasure, Karl. Glad you're enjoying it. Let me know what you think of Pulcinella, once you've heard it.

Boulez may have stated his dislike for neo-classical or, more prceisely, "middle-period" Stravinsky, but made some exceptions: Pulcienlla (of which he wrote glowingly and gave a great performance in this wondedrful CSO CD), the Symphony in three movements (which he recorded twice), Dumbarton Oaks... But unfortunately, no Scènes de Ballet  :laugh: .

The composer himself joked about that: "He [Rimsky] looked at me as Boulez might if I had suggested playing my Scènes de Ballet at Darmstadt"
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Mahlerian on March 13, 2017, 07:45:33 AM
My pleasure, Karl. Glad you're enjoying it. Let me know what you think of Pulcinella, once you've heard it.

Boulez may have stated his dislike for neo-classical or, more prceisely, "middle-period" Stravinsky, but made some exceptions: Pulcienlla (of which he wrote glowingly and gave a great performance in this wondedrful CSO CD), the Symphony in three movements (which he recorded twice), Dumbarton Oaks... But unfortunately, no Scènes de Ballet  :laugh: .

The composer himself joked about that: "He [Rimsky] looked at me as Boulez might if I had suggested playing my Scènes de balllet at Darmstadt"

He did a fine Ebony Concerto too, with the EI.  Boulez picked and chose somewhat at random from Stravinsky's middle period.  I do remember him calling Oedipus Rex "a Greek temple made out of plastic" or something like that.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: ritter on March 13, 2017, 07:57:09 AM
I do remember him calling Oedipus Rex "a Greek temple made out of plastic" or something like that.
A classic!  :laugh: Similar to "Bernini of the suburbs" he used for the Turangalîla...

Boulez could be very witty when nasty!  ;)

Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: kishnevi on March 13, 2017, 09:13:58 AM
He did a fine Ebony Concerto too, with the EI.  Boulez picked and chose somewhat at random from Stravinsky's middle period.  I do remember him calling Oedipus Rex "a Greek temple made out of plastic" or something like that.

He seems to have used the phrase more than once, and as a criticism of an entire period

Quote
If I look in the period between the two Wars in France or in Europe generally, there was a marvelous period before the First World War.   In 1910, 1915, 1917, 1918, there were a lot of discoveries in all fields, especially in music.  There were some great works, and then after in this period of Two Wars, there was a tendency to be so-called classical, and then lots of people wanted to be historically classical.  When you see that now, you see it’s just fake.  That’s like a plastic Greek temple, for instance, and that does not fit at all.  History has been very quick to look at that in a very severe way, and to make this period before and during the First World War a really very, very strong period in inventiveness and creativity.  Then the period in between was like something which is really tired and not interesting, short of ideas and trying to fulfill an ideal which was very artificial and uninteresting. 

---http://www.bruceduffie.com/boulez.html
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 13, 2017, 09:30:29 AM
My pleasure, Karl. Glad you're enjoying it. Let me know what you think of Pulcinella, once you've heard it.

At once more "in line" with a typical interpretation (and thus, as we've discussed, already at variance with the Ensemble InterContemporain & al. performance), yet still distinctive in many details, and crystal-clear.

Thanks again for the suggestion!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 13, 2017, 09:49:26 AM
Probably my two favorite recordings are Craft's:



And James Wood leading the joined New London and Voronezh Chamber Choirs:



In the tally of the present discussion, add the footnotes that I need to revisit Lenny, and I have yet to settle down to listen to the Eötvös.

I hang my head in shame, for having forgot that I also have the Ančerl:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/515rViFNgYL.jpg)

I don't like having omitted it, but I also want to re-listen before telling snypsss he must, must, must purchase  0:)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 13, 2017, 11:23:40 AM
Audio only:  I would suggest Bernstein.

You're absolutely right, Jeffrey; this is smashing & exuberant.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: kishnevi on March 13, 2017, 11:52:40 AM
You're absolutely right, Jeffrey; this is smashing & exuberant.

Breathes sigh of relief...
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky On the Eve of the Big Snowstorm
Post by: snyprrr on March 13, 2017, 02:38:06 PM
I'm really settling into this thing now, and a snowstorm is the perfect opportunity to delve into austere works such as the Septet (1953). I try looking at it as a 'Septet' proper, and as such I place it firmly in the context of Tradition. By my reckoning, we have our Nonet by Martinu, our Octet by Hindemith, and our Septet by Stravinsky as our Modern bearers of the Tradition. And, because they are all 'Late Works', and written at a time when most all Composers' languages were becoming pricklier, these are great examples of how this generation of Composers continued the Tradition which nurtured them. The Hindemith, and the Stravinsky in particular, are tough and roughly rugged works, bristling with "difficulty" on the ear, coupled with memorable melodies and moments of repose.

The Sravinsky recording of his Septet is so of a time, and is played perfectly understated. It smells like a snowstorm in D.C.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky WHICH COMPOSERS MOST ASSOCIATED W/IGOR?
Post by: snyprrr on March 13, 2017, 02:45:04 PM
What works, or Composers, are most associated with his influence? I know we have Varese, but I'm thinking more of the Gay Paris stuff,... or,... I mean, is it Mossolov and Antheil, or more just like Auric,... ??... anyone?...

I know by 1939-50, most Composers were writing their Big Neo-Classic Works: Stravinsky, DSCH, Hindemith, on down the line, all writing Big Symphonies and such, no time for Gay Paris then!

So, I'm thinking that heyday, that seems to peak

a) early 20s, 1919-1924/5

b) seems to peak @1928-32

c) resurgence @1936-7?

and then, boom!, it all turns into Big Symphonies for the war. Anyone help out here?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 13, 2017, 06:58:37 PM
Breathes sigh of relief...

Me, too. I mean, I was (now) fully prepared to have ears for it. A little disappointed that, back when I first owned the disc, I just didn't hear it. But I'm lovin' it now, which is what matters.


Must revisit the Ančerl ....
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky WHICH COMPOSERS MOST ASSOCIATED W/IGOR?
Post by: DaveF on March 14, 2017, 11:16:49 AM
What works, or Composers, are most associated with his influence?

Interesting question.  There's a whole English strand - Bliss, Walton, Berners, even Tippett sometimes (the 2nd Symphony).
And the Symphony in 3 movements sounds like the beginning of minimalism to me.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: cilgwyn on March 14, 2017, 12:23:36 PM
I hang my head in shame, for having forgot that I also have the Ančerl:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/515rViFNgYL.jpg)

I don't like having omitted it, but I also want to re-listen before telling snypsss he must, must, must purchase  0:)
Thanks for the suggestions for recordings of Les Noces. I must admit I'm not a Bernstein admirer. Although,each to his own! His recordings of American music,aside.. I think I'd go for Craft;and Ancerl is usually very good. The hyperion could be another choice?
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky WHICH COMPOSERS MOST ASSOCIATED W/IGOR?
Post by: Mahlerian on March 14, 2017, 12:38:41 PM
And the Symphony in 3 movements sounds like the beginning of minimalism to me.

American music in general is heavily saturated with Stravinsky influence.  The American 12-tone composers, for example, didn't just draw on Schoenberg and Webern, but also on the rhythms of Stravinsky.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 14, 2017, 01:33:47 PM
Thanks for the suggestions for recordings of Les Noces. I must admit I'm not a Bernstein admirer. Although,each to his own! His recordings of American music,aside.. I think I'd go for Craft;and Ancerl is usually very good. The hyperion could be another choice?

Do you mean this 'un?—

. . . James Wood leading the joined New London and Voronezh Chamber Choirs:



I do like it very much.  (Or am I confused about Helios being a subset of Hyperion?)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on March 14, 2017, 05:54:19 PM
Do you mean this 'un?—

I do like it very much.  (Or am I confused about Helios being a subset of Hyperion?)

Just a reissue moniker, like Redline, Exelsioire by Atragon...a reissue with a twist :-* (it's delicious!)


Just received Abbado 'Pulcinella/Jeu de Cartes'... oooo, what a heavy little jewel case it is, buhttp://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/akyhne/kiss.gifget label (Galleria = Helios)

I LITERALLY HAVE NO IDEA WHAT MY CURSOR JUST DID?????

anyhow...


Abbado 'Pulcinella/Jeu de Cartes'... I don't know if I'm ready for this right now, I'm kind of stuck on the 'Movements',... Richter's version is by FAR the most Modern sounding, almost sci-fi ennui,... really different feel than most others.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky MOVEMENTS FOR PIANO AND ORCHESTRA
Post by: snyprrr on March 14, 2017, 06:38:20 PM
Music for Piano and Orchestra

Entremont/Rosen CBS/SONY
Beroff EMI

Crossley SONY
Mustonen Decca

Bavouzet Hyperion
Donohoe Chandos
Gorlatch SONY


I just realized that Salonen/SONY is a shade muffled compared to the first two, which have their own recording issues. The Ashkenazy/Decca set with Mustonen boasts much clearer sound, but newcomer Alexei Gorlatch/SONY seems he might have the best sound of all. I can only hear samples, does anyone have the scoop on this 2015 release?

He neglects the 'Movements', but adds the early Sonata for Piano. The sound for the solo piano work is pretty crisp and clean, I sure hope someone's got the skinny...

mOVEMENTS

Mrs. Weber (Premiere;1959) on YT with Bour

Richter (1961?)

Rosen/ IS (1963?)

Beroff/ Ozawa (1973?)

Crossley/ Salonen (1988)
Mustonen/ Ashkenazy (1995?)

Osborne/ Volkov (2011?)
Bavouzet/ Tortelier (2012?)


I've been scouring for recordings today, listening closely (even 1min samples go a long way in this music!). The most eye opening of all was Richter, who, with his conductor (?) conjure an alien landscape that sounds like the best sci-fi music I've ever heard. No one else makes this music sound like something other than a pure dodecaphonic exercise, albeit, most of these performance have (by necessity) a great artistry. The other two early versions I feel are none-starters simply for the sound, and perhaps some of the orchestral work,... maybe, or not, can't remember.

Beroff seems to get criticism, but I don't know if it's him, or Ozawa, or the recording, that is being criticized. I though his 'Movements' had a very exciting and Modern tone, with a splashy sounding (though perhaps slightly flawed?) recording.

The Crossley and Mustonen rivalry has been the one going for some time, but, for no other reason than SONY's sound for Salonen seems to be missing the very high end, and/or, the piano image can get obscured by the orchestra, Mustonen must win by default. (SantaFe Listener points this out too) I like Mustonen's hyper-refined fingers, and, the more I listen to the newer takes, he still comes away many times with the clarity, and the zippiness. The Decca sound for Ashkenazy is typical, so, it is very very good, more polite than the SONY, but you hear everything very nicely, at a slight recess, but with just attack.

As far as the playing, Crossley/Salonen seems more... ardent?...passionate?...Mustonen/Ashkenazy are perhaps more... laboratory and athletic? Crossley takes the 1st the slowest of all, but, when one looks at the timings for most, they all fall around the same bracket, even though most "sound" much faster than Crossley. Mustonen has a very pointallistic touch, which he uses to advantage in the 2nd "cimbalom" sounding section.

So then we more along and Osborne and Bavouzet both come out practically together. This has aided is getting reviews, though, honestly, not many reviewers have more than one other version, usually Salonen. Though both of these new versions sound much more perfectly than any before, they don't necessarily stand so very much higher. Osborne and Volkov are given a drier (though ample) styled Hyperion treatment (which sounds like Chandos to me); the Chandos seems a little more alive. Reviewers seemed to marginally favour the Chandos as generally livelier in all departments. In the 'Movements', Osborne really yields nothing to Bavouzet, though, the latter's backdrop is heard to better effect. In all, Bavouzet/Tortelier, and Mustonen/Ashkenazy seem to have the best sound, and even though the Chandos is "super modern" sound, the Decca mid-90s sound is everything one might expect from a good Decca/Ashkenazy deal (which I usually rate quite highly, sound wise).

None of the four Digital versions deliver any kind of individual performance like the Richter, but, they all try very hard to get everything right, and, so, sound can make a difference here. Though the attenuation on the SONY is at its least in the 'Movements', when one compares the detail of the Decca one can still hear how the SONY recording (though, technically very very good in all other respects) seems to obscure detail (almost reminds me of some Virgin recordings, "dry and fluffy" I call it).


One of the main luxury issues with all these releases is that 'Complete Music for Piano and Orchestra' is less than 50mins., and all the releases have differing fill-ups, most of which, frankly, make no sense to me. I'd rather have the solo piano pieces, rather than the 'Volga Boatman', or the 'Ebony' Concerto,... or 'Petrushka' for that matter (oy vey- that's taking "Complete" a bit far, no?).

Frankly, I look towards a Knussen driven 'Movements', maybe with Alan Feinberg? hmmm...
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky WHICH COMPOSERS MOST ASSOCIATED W/IGOR?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on March 14, 2017, 07:18:42 PM
What works, or Composers, are most associated with his influence? I know we have Varese, but I'm thinking more of the Gay Paris stuff,... or,... I mean, is it Mossolov and Antheil, or more just like Auric,... ??... anyone?...

I know by 1939-50, most Composers were writing their Big Neo-Classic Works: Stravinsky, DSCH, Hindemith, on down the line, all writing Big Symphonies and such, no time for Gay Paris then!

So, I'm thinking that heyday, that seems to peak
a) early 20s, 1919-1924/5
b) seems to peak @1928-32
c) resurgence @1936-7?
and then, boom!, it all turns into Big Symphonies for the war. Anyone help out here?

The Boston School group of composers (at Harvard):
Arthur Berger, Leonard Bernstein, Aaron Copland, Irving Fine, Lukas Foss, and Harold Shapero were all strongly influenced by Stravinsky's neoclassical style and that 'more French' sensibility and aesthetic, in which Nadia Boulanger had a hugely influential hand...

N.B. There are some really good and substantial works from each of these composers.
I've cited below almost exclusively those works sounding more or less neoclassical.  A number of these composers developed distinctly different vocabularies and styles later, including embracing or partially using -- in their own manner -- serialsm.

Foss ~ Song of Songs 1946
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vstl1bY1Z2k
Capriccio for 'Cello and piano 1948
His later Symphony No.2, "Symphony of Chorales" 1958 -- a stunning 'big' symphony.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU1p4Em0hzQ

Irving Fine ~ Music for piano 1947
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l0Rxc3MFHA
The Choral New Yorker (1944, I think)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHJcaBmhpJw

Arthur Berger ~ Suite for Piano Four-hands
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nov1oSd5z9k
Ideas of Order, for orchestra -- another noteworthy symphonic work. (early to mid-50's)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr7ZL1Uia7Q
His remarkable tonal and serial Duo for 'Cello and Piano
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stDVbgriNQY

Harold Shapero ~ Four-Hand Sonata for Piano 1941
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpSUXx3stiU

There are really fine chamber works from this group of composers as well as some large symphonic works, not all 'big symphonies after the war,' lol.  {Large symphonic ensemble works are, generally, the most popular, so the ones you become more aware of than all the rest of these composer's works.)

Stravinsky's ultimate clarification (if not invention) of polychordal harmonies, and especially bi-tonality / polytonality via Petrushka, was undoubtedly seminal and did have a direct influence on the styles of the other European neoclassicists, Milhaud, Honegger, Frank Martin, Martinu, etc.  It is difficult to imagine their works as they are if Stravinsky had not set precedents and been so influential.  I would to some degree say this influence was 'direct,' while if you listen to any of the Boston school group of composers -- and there are more than just a few fine works from each of them -- or the 'Euro crowd,' it is apparent, as usual, that the 'good ones' we still find interesting and of value were each their own, put their own stamp and sensibility on and into what they wrote.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky WHICH COMPOSERS MOST ASSOCIATED W/IGOR?
Post by: snyprrr on March 15, 2017, 06:43:02 AM
The Boston School group of composers (at Harvard):
Arthur Berger, Leonard Bernstein, Aaron Copland, Irving Fine, Lukas Foss, and Harold Shapero were all strongly influenced by Stravinsky's neoclassical style and that 'more French' sensibility and aesthetic, in which Nadia Boulanger had a hugely influential hand...

N.B. There are some really good and substantial works from each of these composers.
I've cited below almost exclusively those works sounding more or less neoclassical.  A number of these composers developed distinctly different vocabularies and styles later, including embracing or partially using -- in their own manner -- serialsm.

Foss ~ Song of Songs 1946
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vstl1bY1Z2k
Capriccio for 'Cello and piano 1948
His later Symphony No.2, "Symphony of Chorales" 1958 -- a stunning 'big' symphony.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU1p4Em0hzQ

Irving Fine ~ Music for piano 1947
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l0Rxc3MFHA
The Choral New Yorker (1944, I think)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHJcaBmhpJw

Arthur Berger ~ Suite for Piano Four-hands
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nov1oSd5z9k
Ideas of Order, for orchestra -- another noteworthy symphonic work. (early to mid-50's)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr7ZL1Uia7Q
His remarkable tonal and serial Duo for 'Cello and Piano
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stDVbgriNQY

Harold Shapero ~ Four-Hand Sonata for Piano 1941
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpSUXx3stiU

There are really fine chamber works from this group of composers as well as some large symphonic works, not all 'big symphonies after the war,' lol.  {Large symphonic ensemble works are, generally, the most popular, so the ones you become more aware of then all the rest of these composer's works.)

Stravinsky's ultimate clarification (if not invention) of polychordal harmonies, and especially bi-tonality / polytonality via Petrushka, was undoubtedly seminal and did have a direct influence on the styles of the other European neoclassicists, Milhaud, Honegger, Frank Martin, Martinu, etc.  It is difficult to imagine their works as they are if Stravinsky had not set precedents and been so influential.  I would to some degree say this influence was 'direct,' while if you listen to any of the Boston school group of composers -- and there are more than just a few fine works from each of them -- or the 'Euro crowd,' it is apparent, as usual, that the 'good ones' we still find interesting and of value were each their own, put their own stamp and sensibility on and into what they wrote.

yes, yes, and, yes :laugh:
Interesting question.  There's a whole English strand - Bliss, Walton, Berners, even Tippett sometimes (the 2nd Symphony).
And the Symphony in 3 movements sounds like the beginning of minimalism to me.

Yes, I heard that too!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky WHICH COMPOSERS MOST ASSOCIATED W/IGOR?
Post by: Mirror Image on March 15, 2017, 06:47:28 AM
And the Symphony in 3 movements sounds like the beginning of minimalism to me.

I think Bruckner and Sibelius beat ol’ Igor to the proto-minimialistic punch here. ;)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky WHICH COMPOSERS MOST ASSOCIATED W/IGOR?
Post by: snyprrr on March 15, 2017, 06:56:15 AM
I think Bruckner and Sibelius beat ol’ Igor to the proto-minimialistic punch here. ;)

but it becomes very obvious with Igor- ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ...


MI- have  you heard Maazel's 'Psalms'?

Any ideas about the Piano+Orch works?

Apollo? (I settle with Dutoit and Chailly, maybe Rattle (I do need modern sound for this one)

Petrushka?- I can't seem to find a "violent" enough version... I'm leaning towards Boulez/SONY, or Dorati/Decca... for some reason this score hasn't grabbed me by the throat- I definitely need an over-the-top blood+guts version
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 15, 2017, 06:59:33 AM

Any ideas about the Piano+Orch works?

I need to revisit Béroff/Ozawa . . . .


The Rattle Apollo is the recording which made me love the piece.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on March 16, 2017, 07:08:38 PM
I need to revisit Béroff/Ozawa . . . .


The Rattle Apollo is the recording which made me love the piece.

a) Can anyone tell me why that Beroff/Ozawa set is so highly maligned? I thought the 'Movements', for instance, didn't embarrass themselves, imo, lol, and the 'Capriccio' starts off with the most drama around- and you can hear the piano!! I dunno- is their "glare" or "hardness, brittleness", or do they suck, or what? what?? sounds ok to me- but now there is so much digital competition for a chiseled work such as 'Movements'.

b) I have the Rattle here, yea, it's nice and dark and big, yet poised- I thought some longeurs? But, yea, either Rattle, Dutoit, or Chailly- must have digital strings for this most refined string work.



c) CAN SOMEONE TELL ME PLEASE- is there one flippin' recording of 'Psalms', BESIDES Igor/CBS, that isn't recorded across the opera house? OY VEY!! I mean, please, bear with me- listen to the opening of CBS, how you can hear all the instruments, even though there is some acoustical space- at the rising semitone, you can HEAR THE HORN WHOOPING- which is something I struggle to hear in everything I'm checking out.

Chailly? Are you kidding me? Even though his seems far away, it still has more oomph than Simon Preston/Decca.. But, for me the problem is brought in spades in the Chailly- in some kind of effort to balance the (frankly) smallish orchestra with the chorus, MOST ALL ENGINEERS seem to opt for the "distance" approach, which usually is noticed from the very first chord hit and the impression it makes in the sonic space. The Chailly sounds to me like one of those Nimbus recordings, which always sounds like a "perfect" bootleg (a small aural image surrounded by ambient reverb).

By contrast, Igor/CBS has what sounds like the orchestra AMONGST the singers (or vice versa). All the tooting and burping from the lower winds is heard. The descending to the abyss oboe run is heard- imagine how far away it is in the Chailly.

I just got the Maazel, and though what I heard on the samples still comes across- I really think this is a great take- the distance is just a little farther than the CBS- YES, I'm being  uber picky here, but, for all its beauty of sound, that slight distance is all it takes to blend those horns into that opening so they really just don't pop out at you like they should (I should say, though, that because of the slightly quicker tempo, this one does have some more clarity, in a way). Now, I may be able to get used to this Maazel, but, as I was scouring the field again (oy, Bernstein soooo sloooow), I just noticed that everyone is having real difficulty getting a good recording balance here.

Solti's balance seems just a touch farther than Maazel (which was just a touch farther than Igor),  Again, it seems to be par for the course. Didn't check MMT yet. Bertini, on Orfeo, is not quite as far away as Chailly, but somehow has a nice presence- I really liked this one, but, again, why can't I have some micing?

WHY CAN'T I GET UP FRONT AND CLEAR?? I know, I'm waiting on the Boulea and Rattle already...

Craft? Kinda far away.

I WANT TO HEAR THE OBOE AND BASSOON!! THE HORNS!!

THE FLIPPIN HARP-


Name me ONE version where you can actually hear the harp.





Hyperion/O'Donnell??? Was that recorded in the other end of the cathedral?


THE VOICES WERE WRITTEN TO BE LIKE INSTRUMENTS- MIX THEM TOGETHER AAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!



gasping for air.... gasp....gasp.....ok..... pant......pant.....whew......


Was it the Shaw that had more reverb than 10 beach boys? Or was it just slow... or lame?... what was the problem there?...



ok, regroup...


Is it Sunday?...no, it's Thursday...


I need to go check the filter on my flange gasket
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky ABBADO Puclinella/ Jeu de Cartes DG
Post by: snyprrr on March 16, 2017, 07:26:02 PM
Pulcinella
Jeu de Cartes

Abbado/LSO (DG)

It put me to sleep. It did, but I won't fault it,... really. It was also the first time I heard... most... of 'Jeu de Cartes', which starts off with the most pompous chord in all of Stravinsky (if I have any bead on his humor). Yea, I found JdC very odd, yet it had a Prokofien busy blandness that I couldn't keep up with. Surely, there must be some Prokofiev influence here? I did note how it was so much of older styles of music, but had a streamlined tone that could have only come from Europe 20s-30s. I'm not sure I'll be seeking out other versions, even though the 1980 DG sound shows its age just a tiny blush (it's pretty fine- I seem to prefer Decca sound during this period, well, what do you this of this sound?)

'Pulcinella' began to make me think I was a kid being dragged to the Opera. LOL. I mean, I did enjoy it- and I WAS lying down, with my hands clasped and my eyes closed,... arf... and yes, it was making me dream of bland things and trips to fancy places and social parties and such...zzz.....zzzzz.....zzz.....zzzz..zzzzz..... oh, and then it went to something else.


But, yea, these two scores seem to belong together, and, on this Abbado performance, present to me a side of Stravinsky which will stay on this disc. Nothing else sounds like these two pieces. 'Jeu', especially, sounds like Prokofiev to me... is it me?... but I can't place it as Igor yet. So, these two pieces are going to get filed with Prokofiev, odd.

I thought I like 'Jeu' more than I did.

Performance is fine, though- singing
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: James on March 16, 2017, 08:37:35 PM
By contrast, Igor/CBS has what sounds like the orchestra AMONGST the singers (or vice versa).

That's what I love about Igor's recordings in general .. even if the tuning is a bit ropey in places.
.. it feels like your sitting within the group hearing all that awesome rhythmic stuff.



Hyperion/O'Donnell??? Was that recorded in the other end of the cathedral?/

I really love the recording of the Mass on this one. Perhaps for Psalms try the Boulez/DG one, though it's a distant/ambient too if i recall, most of his DG re-treads suffer from this, blurring/marring/smudging the musical result .. and I can't believe he allowed it, or even wasted so much time re-recording stuff like this ..  the first run Sony recordings are often superior for up close sound .. the DG has at least a very good Symphonies of Winds on it.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky ABBADO Puclinella/ Jeu de Cartes DG
Post by: James on March 16, 2017, 08:47:11 PM
Pulcinella
Jeu de Cartes

Abbado/LSO (DG)

Pulcinella I can tolerate under certain conditions .. never really cared for the 'Card Game' & a few others in a similar vein, a whole slew from the middling period which are kind of blah by Igor's standards.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: arpeggio on March 16, 2017, 08:49:13 PM
On contrabassoon I have twice performed the Symphony of Psalm.  What is awesome is the final note includes the contra playing a low pedal C.  I have never heard a recording where one can hear that low C.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: Monsieur Croche on March 16, 2017, 11:39:20 PM
On contrabassoon I have twice performed the Symphony of Psalm.  What is awesome is the final note includes the contra playing a low pedal C.  I have never heard a recording where one can hear that low C.

(I actually think its presence is audible in the Stravinsky / Columbia recording)

You expect to hear that contra as anything other than a contributor to the timbre of what is probably near a full tutti of an entire ensemble of 5 flutes (5th doubling piccolo), 4 oboes, cor anglais, 3 bassoons, and contrabassoon; 4 horns in F, piccolo trumpet, 4 trumpets in C, 3 trombones, and tuba; timpani, bass drum, 2 pianos, and harp; cellos and contrabasses; and a four-part chorus (soprano, alto, tenor, bass)

 -- ah, instrumentalists ;-)

... and talk about musical puns in a sacred work and that third movement being so very much In C: 
"DO - minum"


Always best regards.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on March 17, 2017, 06:29:00 AM
Perhaps for Psalms try the Boulez/DG one, though it's a distant/ambient too if i recall, most of his DG re-treads suffer from this, blurring/marring/smudging the musical result .. and I can't believe he allowed it, or even wasted so much time re-recording stuff like this ..  the first run Sony recordings are often superior for up close sound ..


 the DG has at least a very good Symphonies of Winds on it.[/size][/font]

^^^ Yes, that is the universal consensus that that's a not little SOWindInstr...

But yea, it seems like eeeveryone's got to have that ambience at all costs... ugh... yea, I'm having a little conniption fit here over this... is it too much to ask??... JUST ONE modern digital version where you can HEAR STUFF...

Yea, I thought Boulez was King of the Musical X-Ray... how dare he allow 'Psalms' to be anything less that irradiated.

On contrabassoon I have twice performed the Symphony of Psalm.  What is awesome is the final note includes the contra playing a low pedal C.  I have never heard a recording where one can hear that low C.

People should be arrested...


I have never wept over a low C until now... oh, fore soothe... poor bassoon, we hardly knew ye :'(



IS THERE ONE OUT THERE?? JUST ONE??


My fav new part of 'Psalms' is that whooping horn right before the initial singing starts- and CBS is the only place I've heard it wail like a wounded brontosaur... also, those semi-tones in the strings??... oy, have you heard how weak they are in soooo many versions??....


ok, need to relax.... this thing has got me all pissy this morning, throwing vases and clearing desks... where's the rifles??...MA, PASS ME OVER THE TABLE SOME BULLETS!!!


I wonder how I'll react when I finally hear Rattle's, and that choir comes in in that obviously fake positioning, edited in no doubt...



I'M IN A FURIOUS RAGE!!!! >:D >:D >:D >:D STOP ME!! (Jim Carrey)  snap into a slimjim!!!!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky A CLEAN, WELL LIT PSALMS
Post by: snyprrr on March 17, 2017, 06:32:13 AM
A Clean Well Lit Place

What must one do to just find a 'Psalms' that just at least stands alongside Igor's?? Everyone's been overthinking this piece for 50 years now... get it straight people!!!... yes, YOU- I'm talkin to you M.r SONY Exec.,.... Mr. Universal Entertainment.... Warner Brahs...

AAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: arpeggio on March 17, 2017, 08:29:09 AM
(I actually think its presence is audible in the Stravinsky / Columbia recording)

You expect to hear that contra as anything other than a contributor to the timbre of what is probably near a full tutti of an entire ensemble of 5 flutes (5th doubling piccolo), 4 oboes, cor anglais, 3 bassoons, and contrabassoon; 4 horns in F, piccolo trumpet, 4 trumpets in C, 3 trombones, and tuba; timpani, bass drum, 2 pianos, and harp; cellos and contrabasses; and a four-part chorus (soprano, alto, tenor, bass)

 -- ah, instrumentalists ;-)

... and talk about musical puns in a sacred work and that third movement being so very much In C: 
"DO - minum"


Always best regards.

 :-[ :-[ :-[

You are right!!! You can hear and feel that wonderful subtle sound on the Columbia recording.  When I play it on a better stereo system it is there, you can feel it.  Oh joy unbounded.  Good old Igor got it right  :)
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 18, 2017, 07:06:31 AM


I need to revisit Béroff/Ozawa . . . .


Only a start, of course, but I've listened anew to the Tango and the Capriccio, and these are both delightfully nervy.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 18, 2017, 07:13:18 AM
And Béroff was so energetically febrile with the Piano-Rag Music, I nearly didn't recognize it, at first.

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Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky Movements by Stravinsky
Post by: snyprrr on March 18, 2017, 07:36:03 AM


Only a start, of course, but I've listened anew to the Tango and the Capriccio, and these are both delightfully nervy.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

The one Amazon Reviewer lays all the blame on the French engineers- says the piano sound is a disaster... says they got the orchestra right, but, again, didn't get the piano...

My question, Karl- do you have the original wide 2CD, or the reissue, which I must assume has some re-mastering? Of course, remastering can't really fix an original recording issue... anyhow, is the piano image "hard, brittle"?? I really didn't hear anything too clanky when I check out the 'Serenade'.

AND- Beroff and Ozawa seem to almost have the most delicate 'Movements'. I spent all day going over III. with all the version- ALL THE VERSIONS (Weber, Rosen, Bruins, Beroff, Crossley, Mustonen, Osborne, Bavouzet, Richter... couldn't find Oldfather/Craft)... I was surprised, I gave III. to Beroff, Weber, and Osborne, with Crossley rounding out.


I'm hot on the 'Movements' right now... I got III. down pretty good, understanding what he's doing... I'm starting to think it's the perfect Avant piece, sitting like a perch there in 1958, looking back, looking forward, a little Webern, a little Babbitt/Sessions...

I'm also hearing the jazziness... but only in the Rosen... you could actually play these "mit der swing" to get a real jazzy feel... I mean, it WAS written for a women, and I hear these delicious things that no one seems really to hang on (Richter&Co. seem to have taken the most care with the score- Baxouzet is starting to sound lazy to me (Osborne is very very icy, though).

Again, I look towards a Knussen 'Movements'.
Title: Re: Chez Stravinsky
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 18, 2017, 07:47:42 AM
In the interview snippets which serve as liner notes to the CSO recording of the Symphony in Three Movements, Boulez sez:

Quote from: M. Boulez
The best parts of the Symphony in Three Movements for me are the first movement and part of the third, where he has an illustration of something in his mind. [Henning note: This is roughly equal parts presumptuous—Boulez knows where Stravinsky has "an illustration of something in his mind," and where not—and circular, since earlier in the interview he said "For me, Stravinsky is at his best when he illustrates something."]  At one moment in the first movement, you even find reminiscences of The Rite of Spring.  That's very surprising.  When I heard that for the first time—it was performed in France after the war—I thought, "Oh yes, certainly: the Rite of Spring surges again."

I made that connection—between the Symphony and Le sacre—myself, when I heard the Cleveland Orchestra play the Symphony.  (It was probably a little easier for me, since I had not heard all that many of the intervening Stravinsky pieces at that point.)  And why I point this out is, in the CSO recording Boulez especially brings out that "pagan Russian" vitality in the Symphony.

And, that Ozawa and Béroff perform the Capriccio, not like a wad of cotton candy off at the side, but like a companion piece to Le sacre and the Symphony in Three Movements.  Lots of focus and energy.  Love it!


My question, Karl- do you have the original wide 2CD, or the reissue, which I must assume has some re-mastering? Of course, remastering can't really fix an original recording issue... anyhow, is the piano image "hard, brittle"?? I really didn't hear anything too clanky when I check out the 'Serenade'.


Decades ago, I had the original, and it didn't sing to me. (But, as with the Lenny Les noces, let's presum