I have an idea.... but i want advice on this first.
I'm thinking about asking for a violin for Christmas, but I won't ask if certain conditions aren't met.
I'd like to learn how to play, but in the end it will either be useful for something or a waste of time that i could be spending doing something else.
These are my questions: if I get a violin, practice it for years, and then get good enough to join an orchestra, could I? (i've did searches and found orchestras wanting violinists, and they didn't even have to take music in school or anything for that). If it's possible, does it pay enough?
This is just a job i'd like to think is possible, after having a secure job year from now. It really seems impossible to get any type of job doing what i really like considering my interests, but if i could be involved in music in at least this way, that'd be amazing! :o
if this isn't a good idea, i'll just forget about it
It's possible if you practice your buns off, and I mean really put in mega-hours every day for a number of years, that you might be able to play at a professional level. Most of the string players I know that make their living off of playing belong to several regional orchestras, and teach a lot of students. The very top orchestras are very competitive to get into, though there are certainly more violin positions open than clarinet!
Most orchestral violinists will have started at about 5 or 6 years old, worked for several hours a day during their teens, and up to about 6 per day at a 3 or 4 or 5 year college degree before gaining experience in orchestras of gradually increasing quality. So starting at your age, there would probably be little or no hope in getting to a top orchestra, and they are the only ones where you could actually live purely off the salary. String instruments are probably not the ideal instrument to choose - Percussion seems to be the only thing where you wouldn't have to start young to be in with a good chance, but then of course there are only a few of these positions available. The 'easy route' would probably be singing - You could get really good with hard work in much less time, but that relies on you having a naturally good voice too. But as a guide - for how different the rate of progress can be - I know people who have got to grade 8 ABRSM in less than two years, whereas piano or violin might take about 10 years on average. All depends on how much you are willing to work.
Quote from: Guido on November 05, 2007, 03:07:31 PM
Most orchestral violinists will have started at about 5 or 6 years old, worked for several hours a day during their teens, and up to about 6 per day at a 3 or 4 or 5 year college degree before gaining experience in orchestras of gradually increasing quality. So starting at your age, there would probably be little or no hope in getting to a top orchestra, and they are the only ones where you could actually live purely off the salary. String instruments are probably not the ideal instrument to choose
most of them probably have little talent to begin with if they have to practice THAT much ::)
i can understand a pianist having to practice that much, but violin?..... is it really that hard to achieve a good tone and intonation?
i never practiced that much when i first started guitar- the first couple of years, i practiced a few hours a day (started when i was 13), and the last few years i rarely practice. After like 3 years i started playing shred stuff which is like Paganini for the guitar (oh yeah, i don't know if you remember that one time i posted a file of me playing Paganini's 16th Caprice on the electric guitar ;D )
i'm sure it's possible for a lot of people to play Paganini on violin after playing just 3 years, but why do they have to practice so much after that? To memorize more music? To maintain their technique? I've heard of guitarists doing the same thing, practicing hours and hours a day, and i don't see why they'd need to play THAT much ???
QuotePercussion seems to be the only thing where you wouldn't have to start young to be in with a good chance, but then of course there are only a few of these positions available. The 'easy route' would probably be singing - You could get really good with hard work in much less time, but that realies on you haveing a naturally good voice too. But as a guide - for how different the rate of progress can be - I know people who have got to grade 8 ABRSM in less than two years, whereas piano or violin might take about 10 years on average. All depends on how much you are willing to work.
percussion- totally out of my field, singing no way ;D
Quotei can understand a pianist having to practice that much, but violin?..... is it really that hard to achieve a good tone and intonation?
Hilarious!
Quote from: HandelHooligan on November 05, 2007, 03:33:06 PM
Hilarious!
;)
seriously, the violin can even sustain more than two notes at a time, the only thing hard about the instrument at all has to be tone (making sure you're perfectly on pitch) and intonation.
I've tried seriously practicing the piano for awhile, and even though it has an easy layout and all, it just involves so many notes that it's insane. :o
Most of the time with the violin it's just one note at a time, and succession of chords is rarely played fast. Not to mention you never have to bend a string in pitch, you don't have a whammy bar to deal with, you don't ever have to learn a 5 or 6 note chord, and there's way less notes on the violin, just to name a few things.
I actually can't believe that I'm reading this!
This is like the funniest thing I've read all year. ;D
I hate to burst your bubble but your s.o.l.
Violin is one of the hardest insturments to learn how to play, trust me i have tried and failed.
Try a horn, or something with a reed, or bang on some drums.
Strings are hard to play, unless the are without a bow and have frets. :)
Quote from: Guido on November 05, 2007, 03:55:51 PM
I actually can't believe that I'm reading this!
Well, I can barely believe I'm reading this, if it helps. :P
Seriously, Greg, I am also fairly certain that the violin is one of
the hardest instruments to learn.
Not that the piano is exactly easy, or any instrument for that matter, but the violin pretty much tops the (conventional instrument) difficulty charts, more likely than not! :D
Quote from: G...R...E...G... on November 05, 2007, 03:52:23 PM
;)
seriously, the violin can even sustain more than two notes at a time, the only thing hard about the instrument at all has to be tone (making sure you're perfectly on pitch) and intonation.
The violin doesn't have frets. And the notes are rather close together. Then there's the vibrato thing.
I think you should try it just to see how much goes into playing the violin. It's sure to help you in writing for strings.
Quote from: G...R...E...G... on November 05, 2007, 03:52:23 PM
;)
seriously, the violin can even sustain more than two notes at a time, the only thing hard about the instrument at all has to be tone (making sure you're perfectly on pitch) and intonation.
I've tried seriously practicing the piano for awhile, and even though it has an easy layout and all, it just involves so many notes that it's insane. :o
Most of the time with the violin it's just one note at a time, and succession of chords is rarely played fast. Not to mention you never have to bend a string in pitch, you don't have a whammy bar to deal with, you don't ever have to learn a 5 or 6 note chord, and there's way less notes on the violin, just to name a few things.
Greg, I play piano and cello, which is near enough to the violin that I feel able to comment. Trust me, the piano is child's play in comparison, for me anyway. 'Number of notes at a time' has nothing to do with it, I'm afraid.
Quote from: G...R...E...G... on November 05, 2007, 12:29:32 PM
if this isn't a good idea, i'll just forget about it
It's not, Greg.
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 06, 2007, 04:12:52 AM
It's not, Greg.
(((OTOH, it is remotely possible that Greg has a deeply latent gift for playing the violin)))
**
ok, fine, you all have persuaded me to not play it ;D
it's very hard to see how this instrument can be so hard when you don't play it......
but i guess that's better than finding out the hard way ;D
thanks everyone for all the advice
Do you have any other dreams that we can rip to shreds, G...R...E...G... ?
Quote from: Herzog Lipschitz on November 06, 2007, 01:51:25 PM
Do you have any other dreams that we can rip to shreds, G...R...E...G... ?
I've tried to rip those apart but he just keeps persisting!
Quote from: Herzog Lipschitz on November 06, 2007, 01:51:25 PM
Do you have any other dreams that we can rip to shreds, G...R...E...G... ?
yeah, i'll try to think of something
Quote from: E..L..I..A..S.. =) on November 06, 2007, 02:22:11 PM
I've tried to rip those apart but he just keeps persisting!
they've already been ripped apart by fate >:(
i couldn't help but persist, since it's only human to try to get what you want......
that was the last way i could think of doing music as a living..... maybe i'll think of another dream that can be ripped to shreds..... let's see, there was the conductor thing, the music professor thing, and now the violin thing.....
Quote from: G...R...E...G... on November 06, 2007, 03:11:44 PM
yeah, i'll try to think of something
they've already been ripped apart by fate >:(
i couldn't help but persist, since it's only human to try to get what you want......
that was the last way i could think of doing music as a living..... maybe i'll think of another dream that can be ripped to shreds..... let's see, there was the conductor thing, the music professor thing, and now the violin thing.....
I don't see why you couldn't bust your bottom and pursue that one, assuming you've got a good ear and plenty of dedication...
To my knowledge (correct me if I'm wrong), there have been a number of conductors to "start late", some of which became very great. :)
Quote from: G...R...E...G... on November 06, 2007, 03:11:44 PM
let's see, there was the conductor thing, the music professor thing, and now the violin thing.....
Start out as a violinist, then segue into conducting ........ while teaching composition as an adjunct professor .....
Quote from: Herzog Lipschitz on November 06, 2007, 04:45:22 PM
Start out as a violinist, then segue into conducting ........ while teaching composition as an adjunct professor .....
;D
first i'll be rich so i have reliable "income"....... then maybe i'll consider >:D
While it may be true it will be almost impossible to get into one of the "top orchestras"...doesn't that apply to everyone? I'd imagine the top orchestras would be really, really, really absurdly hard to get into a top orchestra with ANY instrument. Sure, the top violin players probably have spend all their time practicing since they were six...but so, probably, haven't the clarinet players.
It wouldn't be that absurdly hard to get into a decent one, though. However, at least in the US (I've heard it's not true in Europe), there aren't very many and most of them are having financial issues-pop culture music is really hard to compete with. I don't think it would be a good idea to PLAN to play any instrument professionally. However, that doesn't mean you can't practice a lot with an instrument, maybe play in a non-professional orchestra/band for awhile, and look for any opportunities that pop up.
Actually, if you're in the US, it should be noted that the US Army and National Guard both have bands/orchestras. If you feel like being a soldier on the side (e.g. going through basic training and all that good stuff) they send you to a music school and teach you, basically, how to play at a pretty professional level. They then stick you in one of their various bands.
I wonder. Greg, you already know guitar, so maybe you have a talent on the violin too--or maybe not.
Four things make the violinist:
1. Tone
2. Technique
3. Intonation
4. Expression
(That's pretty much true of all instruments; it's just more obvious on the violin. And on piano you don't have to worry about intonation, and tone is mostly a function of the instrument.) And it does take years, from all accounts, to get that rich violin sound and good intonation.
Just be glad you're not trying to play oboe! :o It's even harder to get good tone on the oboe.
very nice last two posts.
Quote from: Herzog Lipschitz on November 10, 2007, 08:56:51 AM
What about vibrational fields?
They vibrate. Wildly, Exotically. Use your sick imagination. :D
I know I'm replying to a month old topic, but I feel like I must encourage you to try out the violin if you are willing to work hard and practice intelligently. Sure, it's one of the hardest instruments to learn, but that shouldn't turn you off if you are slightly interested in learning to play. If you start out now I think you should have realistic goals and not try to push yourself too hard, too fast or it will be worse for you in the long run. Start off slow and practice slowing bowing the open strings for as long as you'd like, feel how the bow feels in your arms at all parts of the bow and learn proper bow distribution, bow pressure and bow speed for what you are playing.
It really bothers me when I see people turned off from learning something (music or otherwise), because they feel they are incapable of doing it because so and so. I just want you to know that with enough practice you could be playing in a string quartet and playing first or second violin beautifully. Just don't ever think "what can be so hard about it?", because there are professionals that still have trouble with their bow arm even after years and years of practice. Which is why you shouldn't get into playing with the mindset of making money, because the first thing is the love of the instrument or else you'd want to quit after day one.
Much luck to you.
Quote from: mattzart on December 04, 2007, 05:01:14 PM
Which is why you shouldn't get into playing with the mindset of making money, because the first thing is the love of the instrument or else you'd want to quit after day one.
Which is why most of us advised him against attempting the career as a violinist, given the reasons stated in his original post. :)
The wife of an acquaintance of mine is a violin teacher. Her oldest pupil is 76. So if you want to learn playing violin for your own pleasure and without any pretense to be a proffessional you can go for it.
Quote from: mattzart on December 04, 2007, 05:01:14 PM
I know I'm replying to a month old topic, but I feel like I must encourage you to try out the violin if you are willing to work hard and practice intelligently.
Greg was with you up until the last part of your sentence ........
Quote from: Renfield on December 05, 2007, 12:22:09 AM
Which is why most of us advised him against attempting the career as a violinist, given the reasons stated in his original post. :)
Oh, he just wanted a career? I didn't bother reading the whole post 8)
yeah, sorry, i have a bit too much to practice to add violin in there.... i'm not worrying about it anymore since now i've realized something about my future career that means i don't really need a backup plan to have a future job doing something i like, but it's cool by itself.
still...... some day i'll have to buy a cheap violin just for the fun of it, even if i don't plan on practicing to become an expert >:D
If it's something you were just thinking of as a backup than I wouldn't bother picking it up. The amount of work you'll have to put in just to get a good tone will probably make you want to quit before you even hit a year of practicing, because the first six months will be spent bowing open strings very slowly and noticing how the bow feels in your hand and arm, then there's the whole left hand you have to practice and that's just as much slow, grueling work.
If you have a want and need to play the violin than go for it, if not than I advise another instrument, because violin is very, very difficult. For example, you'll need about 20 years of good practice just to even consider playing the Beethoven concerto.
Quote from: mattzart on December 05, 2007, 09:34:03 AM
If it's something you were just thinking of as a backup than I wouldn't bother picking it up. The amount of work you'll have to put in just to get a good tone will probably make you want to quit before you even hit a year of practicing, because the first six months will be spent bowing open strings very slowly and noticing how the bow feels in your hand and arm, then there's the whole left hand you have to practice and that's just as much slow, grueling work.
If you have a want and need to play the violin than go for it, if not than I advise another instrument, because violin is very, very difficult. For example, you'll need about 20 years of good practice just to even consider playing the Beethoven concerto.
i'll stick with guitar, then 8)