Anyone love this recording best?
Assuming the question isn't merely rhetorical...then no.
For me Jochum/Concertgebouw takes the blue ribbon. :)
Quote from: donwyn on November 25, 2007, 09:15:45 AM
Assuming the question isn't merely rhetorical...then no.
For me Jochum/Concertgebouw takes the blue ribbon. :)
Hey I havent heard that one! Hip?
Quote from: Haffner on November 25, 2007, 09:19:09 AM
Hey I havent heard that one! Hip?
Not HIP, but OOP.... :-\
the Kubelik is supposed to be excellent as well?
To comment on the recordings I
do know: Klemperer - not entirely satisfactory; Gardiner - off target (way off); Harnoncourt - the NH I don't like: eccentric, too self-conscious, stiff.
Result: no ideal "Missa"...yet. :'(
Q
Quote from: Que on November 25, 2007, 09:23:38 AM
Not HIP, but OOP.... :-\
the Kubelik is supposed to be excellent as well?
Q
Now I feel like I'm way behind. I'm not familiar with that one either. I really love the big sound of the Klemperer, amazing considering the age of the performance.
Quote from: Que on November 25, 2007, 09:23:38 AM
To comment on the recordings I do know: Klemperer - not entirely satisfactory; Gardiner - off target (way off); Harnoncourt - the NH I don't like: eccentric, too self-conscious, stiff.
Result: no ideal "Missa"...yet. :'(
Q
Thanks for writing my post for me. :)
This reccomendation might seem like a Dark Horse thing...but Barshai's live rendition is quite good...and only 1.97 U.S. on Amazon!
Quote from: donwyn on November 25, 2007, 09:15:45 AM
Assuming the question isn't merely rhetorical...then no.
For me Jochum/Concertgebouw takes the blue ribbon. :)
At least Arkiv Music has reissued it. Not super-cheap though.
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?name_id1=858&name_role1=1&name_id2=56261&name_role2=3&bcorder=31&comp_id=2063
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/phi426648.jpg)
I find the Klemerer an 'essential' listen and one of my favourites.
Pretty near the top and definetely in my top 3 is Szell live with Cleveland in Cleveland from his long oop set, Szell Centennia CD:3. Hard to find but worth digging out ;) Amazing performance.
Quote from: Haffner on November 25, 2007, 09:19:09 AM
Hey I havent heard that one! Hip?
Yeah, like Q said, Jochum is very traditional.
But in the Missa I enjoy that. Most times I like a little classical restraint in my Beethoven but I'm really fond of Jochum's grand manner here and how it all translates into a sort of mysticism. Shivers and all that...
Glad to see it's now on ArkivMusic. A mite expensive but creativeness can take care of that. 8)
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on November 25, 2007, 10:35:37 AM
I find the Klemerer an 'essential' listen and one of my favourites.
Pretty near the top and definitely in my top 3 is Szell live with Cleveland in Cleveland from his long oop set, Szell Centennia CD:3. Hard to find but worth digging out ;) Amazing performance.
I am with Tony here....though if you cannot find the Szell; there are other excellent versions. I don't really respond to the Klemperer EMI performance, I just cannot take Soderstrom's voice. To listen to such as Margaret Price on Bohm, or Janowitz on the first Karajan is to understand what you are missing. It mayjust be one part of the whole, but it is a vital one. I don't recommend the Bohm as an overall winner. Karajan I like a great deal. Levine's has a marvelous second half. Gardiner leaves me cold and Herreweghe leaves out all the sweat and effort, it sounds way too easy.
Toscanini is excellent and energises the music like almost no one else. Bernstein's version on DG is an excellent all rounder, in balancing the energy and repose, excellent soloists. I have a lot of affection for Giulini on EMI, but the drama is muted.
Mike
Quote from: rubio on November 25, 2007, 10:00:06 AM
At least Arkiv Music has reissued it. Not super-cheap though.
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?name_id1=858&name_role1=1&name_id2=56261&name_role2=3&bcorder=31&comp_id=2063
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/phi426648.jpg)
This should be reissued on a single disc really: it's only 80 minutes long. A tremendously exciting and beautiful performance. The Benedictus with its violin solo is pure magic.
There are two commercial Klemperer performances. The first one was issued on Vox and as with all his Vienna Symphony 1950s Vox recordings, it's much faster, blunter and dramatic thean the stereo remakes. You would never imagine they're from the same conductor.
Andre, I have that earlier Klemperer disc, I got in on 'Turnabout', which is connected to Vox, and there is next to no information on the recording. It is certainly fairly rough and ready; it has the feel of a live performance, sinew rather than packed out muscle. Worth catching as long as gritty sound is acceptable.
Mike
Soiloists are Ilona Steingruber, Else schurhoff, Erich Majkut and Otto Wiener (the only one with a really good voice). With the Vienna Symphony, recorded 1951. The cover is from Vox, but there must have been a licensing agreement between turnabout and Vox. They often shared some material and artists.
I have just recently listened to Norrington's Missa, a decent enough recording in superb sound. The violin solo in the Benedictus beautifully played, Beethoven could have made a mountain of this lovely theme which appears from nowhere, a beautiful moment of inner calm jammed inbetween the one of the most glorious works ever penned.
Amanda Halgrimson (Soprano), Cornelia Kallisch (Alto), Alastair Miles (Bass), John Aler (Tenor)
SWR Sinfonieorchester
A cast I am not familiar with bar John Aler, Miles sings admirably throughout and is a delight in the Agnus Dei.
A really special experience is had when the bass can sing the low notes in the Agnus' first phrases (at "Dei"). Not many have the seemingly bottomless depth this calls for. In my experience, only Moll, Talvela and Siepi had. I'm always surprised that the Wotans, Hundings and Hagens of 1950s and 1960s Bayreuth weren't recorded in the part.
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on November 25, 2007, 11:42:08 AM
Soiloists are Ilona Steingruber, Else schurhoff, Erich Majkut and Otto Wiener (the only one with a really good voice). With the Vienna Symphony, recorded 1951. The cover is from Vox, but there must have been a licensing agreement between turnabout and Vox. They often shared some material and artists.
Available here:
http://www.cd101.net/
in a 2CD set also containing the 5th and 6th Symphony with the same orchester. $ 15 for the set.
That's good. But I wouldn't spend premium money on those. Great as the maestro's reputation is, he was working with inferior orchestras back then, and technical conditions were primitive. I'm pretty sure the reason he went back in the studios was the dramatically improved standards just 10 years had brought. He must have felt in heaven.
It's been a while since I did a spinoff of this piece, but the performances that survived the last one were Karajan/Philharmonia 1958 with Schwarzkopf et al (on vinyl--which I liked better than the Klemperer or either of Karajan's later renditions), Toscanini live 1940 (on CD) and studio from the early 1950s (on LP), and--only recently acquired--a download of Szell live Feb.1967 (a VERY compelling version, which I presume is the one mentioned earlier in this thread).
I'm keeping my eye open for the Jochum, however. Based on what I've read, I think I might like that one as well.
Cheers,
Dirk
Quote from: dirkronk on November 25, 2007, 07:28:33 PM
Karajan/Philharmonia 1958 with Schwarzkopf et al
I particularly like this one, myself. It's been re-released on Testament, parts of the rehearsal sessions and a small interview with Schwarzkopf included and coupled with a fine "Prager" Symphony. Karajan's later interpretation with Cuberli, Schmidt, Cole, van Dam I feel is a lesser achievement.
Levine, as Mike said, is particularly impressive in the second part (Sanctus-Benedictus-Agnus Dei) and overall a very good, big-scale rendition.
Giulini is also quite good.
Harnoncourt's version is a very recent acquisition and haven't listened to it properly...yet.
Now, I'm intrigued by comments made about the Szell and Karajan/Janowitz versions...
To me, Klemperer's version is the one with better cohesion and spirituality.
But Karajan, with Janowitz, Christa Ludwig, Wunderlich, has the better soloists.
The version of Gardiner is interesting, very clear, with a fast tempo and a splendid choir. But it seems very superficial.
Quote from: val on November 26, 2007, 12:56:14 AM
The version of Gardiner is interesting, very clear, with a fast tempo and a splendid choir. But it seems very superficial.
The version of Goodman/Kvam (Nimbus), on the other hand, cannot be superficial - it is cavernous. ;)
Another version which I failed to list (mea culpa), but which still occupies a place on my shelves, is Bernstein/Concertgebouw on DGG LP. This was pieced together from live performances, but the result is impressive, at least IMO. Concertmaster Herman Krebbers was on a roll during the time this recording was made, and his violin work in the Benedictus is quite beautiful.
Dirk
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 26, 2007, 07:19:24 AM
Yes, I do.
Sarge
Could you be a little more straightforward,
Sarge ;)? (laughing)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61TtR99lfzL._SS500_.jpg)
I have this version of the Missa Solemnis by Herreweghe on Harmonia Mundi. This is not a CD i go back to often, not sure if this is down to the work not engaging me, or the version itself; As it is the only version i have, my judgement is stopped short, but to this recording's credit, this is at the top end of my collection in terms of the singing quality, and the sound is just astoundingly clear and detailed, especially for a live recording.
I would be interesting in hearing other opinions on this one.
:)
It is very good indeed (better than other HIP versions). But I'm looking for qualities of drama and monumentality that are alien to the HIP aesthetic: it is too light and fast for my taste.
I have Klemperer on EMI. It's the first version I heard and it remains the definitive version for me. It just rings true and it conveys a sense of struggle and spirituality that is by turns uplifting and touching. I have heard a few other versions (although not the ones that have been highly recommended in this thread) and they all sound superficial by comparison (despite better singers, recording, etc).
One of my favourite moments, where I think Klemperer is unique, is the end of the Gloria. Instead of trying to whip up excitement by going fast, Klemperer maintains an absolutely steady and slowish pace as the music grinds through an amazing and hair-raising series of key changes. I can still remember the thrill and astonishment of hearing this for the first time ..... each time it seemed that the tension could not go any higher Beethoven found a new gear, .... again and again. And with Klemperer's steady tempo there is a sense of monumentality and power that makes it an overwhelming experience.
Out of curiosity I listen to other performances when I can, but I do not expect to ever find anything to replace Klemp.
I was thinking of exploring this piece, I've never even bothered to give it a listen. Can I get some good recommendations (preferably hip) and possibly some suggestions on which part of it to tackle first?
Oddly enough I was just listening to this yesterday - the Gardiner version , which is an excellent HIP version.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41F8JHK8V8L._SS500_.jpg)
It's all worth listening to, so I'd just start at the arresting opening and work through. The Sanctus is particularly beautiful, as a solo violin weaves a melody of ineffable sweetness, which emerges from the chorus's muttering of the words Benedictus qui venit in nomine Domini
I agree: Gardiner's is quite good. I have a fondness for the Hanover Band's, however, and prefer their effort. Not exactly accurate since they use baroque instruments, but a truly excellent sound is achieved.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51SE5JXEY8L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Missa-Solemnis-Hanover-Cathedral-Choir/dp/B00000G2P8/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1225000559&sr=1-3)
I may be one of the few that thinks this is Beethoven's greatest work. Here's a funny anecdote about the composition of the Credo, told by Anton Schindler:
...It was four o'clock in the afternoon. As soon as we entered we were told that both Beethoven's maids had left that morning and that there had occurred after midnight an uproar that had disturbed everyone in the house because, having waited so long, both maids had gone to sleep and the meal they had prepared was inedible. From behind the closed door of one of the parlours we could hear the master working on the fugue of the Credo, singing, yelling, stamping his feet. When we had heard enough of this almost frightening performance and were about to depart, the door opened and Beethoven stood before us, his features distorted to the point of inspiring terror. He looked as though he had just engaged in a life and death struggle with the whole army of contrapuntists, his everlasting enemies. His first words were confused, as if he felt embarrassed at having been overheard...
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on October 25, 2008, 09:56:20 PMI may be one of the few that thinks this is Beethoven's greatest work.
That makes two of us.
Missa Solemnis and late
String Quartets are the best of Beethoven to me.
I have this version (I think it's pretty good):
(http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/5223/513leuo4blss500iy9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
If you like your Beethoven at his most titanic, this is it:
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/e9/36/d7aaa2c008a059fde0697010.L.jpg)
Alkan puts the case very well.
Quote from: Mozart on October 25, 2008, 08:28:04 PM
I was thinking of exploring this piece, I've never even bothered to give it a listen. Can I get some good recommendations (preferably hip) and possibly some suggestions on which part of it to tackle first?
What makes you lean toward hip performances if you never heard it in the first place?
I suggest you tackle the first part (Kyrie) and see where that leads you. The Kyrie is an immensely fervent and powerful piece. Normally you should be impressed enough to keep listening at least until the end of the Gloria. At that point you'll either be exhilarated or exhausted and that will dictate the course of your listening.
I'm only familiar with the Gardiner version, which I am hugely satisfied with, to the point I've never considered the need for another version...I'm surprised there are many who think little of it. What the hey?
(So much so that I was going to head off to pick up his reading of Haydn's Creation after work today...)
Quote from: Jezetha on October 26, 2008, 02:35:31 AM
If you like your Beethoven at his most titanic, this is it:
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/e9/36/d7aaa2c008a059fde0697010.L.jpg)
Alkan puts the case very well.
That's the only Missa... I own. Or probably will ever own. I liked the Gardiner though.
I've always loved Lennie's recording with the Concertgebouw, but hesitate to recommend it because I haven't listened to it in years. I recently have discovered that either my memories aren't so reliable or that my taste may have changed over the years so that old favorites are now un-favorites. The MS recordings are very tricky.
Bunny, in that particular case your memory doesn't fail you. The Bernstein Amsterdam Missa (on one budget priced cd) is magnificent.
Well, if we're going down the modern performance road (long overgrown and underkept in my neck of the woods ;) ) then I'll note two version that I found well-done: Karajan's with the BPO and Toscanini's with the NBCSO. Karajan takes the 'awe-and-wonder' approach, which for him means slowing the tempo way down. I can't really stand it anymore compared to Gardiner's or the Hanover Band's, but I can see why some would like it. Toscanini's is a little more vivacious; not bad, that one.
P.S. I'll have to check out that Herreweghe, didn't know about it before. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on November 01, 2008, 02:19:49 PM
Bunny, in that particular case your memory doesn't fail you. The Bernstein Amsterdam Missa (on one budget priced cd) is magnificent.
Good to know that the old brain wasn't having another senior moment ::)
In any event, I gave the cd a spin and was happy to learn that it lived up to my memories. :D
Btw, my recording is a "panorama" with his 9th with the WP. That was one powerful pairing from DG. The 9th also lived up to my memories. Yay!
As for budget, you know the Missa was recently remastered and they are asking $18.00 for it new. :P
Quote from: Bunny on November 01, 2008, 04:06:36 PM
As for budget, you know the Missa was recently remastered and they are asking $18.00 for it new. :P
Amazon has it for a fair price. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000050GK3/sr=1-14/qid=1155446399/ref=sr_1_14/104-4260392-0741503?ie=UTF8&s=music)
Quote from: 71 dB on October 26, 2008, 12:13:03 AM
That makes two of us. Missa Solemnis and late String Quartets are the best of Beethoven to me.
I have this version (I think it's pretty good):
(http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/5223/513leuo4blss500iy9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Sorry, but this version falls short. When following through with the score, the balance pretty much excludes the choral bases most of the time. I got rid of it. I have written at some length on this piece, but cannot track my posts down at the moment.
Mike
Quote from: adamdavid80 on October 28, 2008, 01:38:39 PM
I'm only familiar with the Gardiner version, which I am hugely satisfied with, to the point I've never considered the need for another version...I'm surprised there are many who think little of it. What the hey?
(So much so that I was going to head off to pick up his reading of Haydn's Creation after work today...)
Oh, it has virtues; but the first movements need to fly, not to feel like a well drilled machine. I know this piece fairly well. It yields a lot to the sheer sweat and effort Beethoven stitches into it. If it sounds super efficient and with little physical input, then a key mystery of the piece is frankly missing.
I don't know if a single performance I could suggest encompasses all that I look for in the piece; perhaps no such exists. It is protean and it does yield to a certain range of approaches; but any relatively bloodless account will certainly not stay on my shelves for long.
Mike
I think I have much the same reaction to Gardiner's. Technically excellent, and, in general, I like the tempi he chooses--yet for me everything is just too inflexible: the music needs to breathe and it doesn't. This recording (my only one for several years) kept me from enjoying the work till I got Zinman, who despite all of his flaws at least gave me a sense of joy to the music that I'd entirely missed before.
I do like the Giulini (though it seems to me to be a very idiosyncratic view of the work) but I definitely need more Missas.
Quote from: knight on November 02, 2008, 02:47:21 AM
Sorry, but this version falls short. When following through with the score, the balance pretty much excludes the choral bases most of the time. I got rid of it. I have written at some length on this piece, but cannot track my posts down at the moment.
Mike
I suppose most of my CDs fall short but luckily I am stupid enough to be happy with them... :P
Quote from: 71 dB on November 02, 2008, 06:00:04 AM
I suppose most of my CDs fall short but luckily I am stupid enough to be happy with them... :P
Good one.
Apart from Bernstein's, the only one I like enough to be wholly content with is the Jochum Concertgebouw (Philips -nla alas :P). Both have that combination of propulsion and expansion that is very hard to achieve. That's why IMO Gardiner's falls short: it's rigid and never eases into the awe, contemplation and collectedness that are just as important as speed and exuberance. Exultation and exaltation can be achieved by a variety of tempos, even slow ones. But for those who like a 70 minute Missa, Gielen's is very, very good.
Quote from: 71 dB on November 02, 2008, 06:00:04 AM
I suppose most of my CDs fall short but luckily I am stupid enough to be happy with them... :P
I have no idea why you say this about yourself. But you said it.
Mike
Quote from: knight on November 02, 2008, 06:37:45 AM
I have no idea why you say this about yourself. But you said it.
Mike
I say it because I don't feel my CDs fall short. Or are you suggesting it's you who are wrong?
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on November 02, 2008, 06:35:34 AM
Apart from Bernstein's, the only one I like enough to be wholly content with is the Jochum Concertgebouw (Philips -nla alas :P).
Agreed, Jochum's version rattles the soul.
BTW, for anyone interested in the Jochum, ArkivMusic now has it as part of their On Demand library. (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=150205)
Quote from: rubio on November 25, 2007, 10:00:06 AM
At least Arkiv Music has reissued it. Not super-cheap though.
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/phi426648.jpg)
Just noticed this. Thanks rubio!
Quote from: 71 dB on November 02, 2008, 06:00:04 AM
I suppose most of my CDs fall short but luckily I am stupid enough to be happy with them... :P
Stupidity is good. It may even make you vice president.
Quote from: erato on November 02, 2008, 07:47:49 AM
Stupidity is good. It may even make you vice president.
You know, is it really necessary to make fun of Joe Biden like this?
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Bernstein's NYPO version. I don't know the later one myself, and I always tend to prefer Lenny Early to Lenny Late - where at worst he could become a turgid, self-important caricature of himself. Comparisons between the two Bernsteins, anyone?
Meanwhile, I'll give the Gardiner another try today and see how it strikes me now.
As far as HIP versions, I have Herreweghe's, which certainly is good but falls a bit short in terms of transcendence.
To me this is where Jochum has the edge (haven't heard Bernstein's DG, yet). Jochum literally mines the score with the patience and skill of an old hand - and unearths a wealth of beauty.
The intimacy is startling and the range of color is amazing.
Setting aside issues of performance practice, this is a version of the work to shake the soul.
Quote from: erato on November 02, 2008, 07:47:49 AM
Stupidity is good. It may even make you vice president.
Only if you are american. I am not. :P
Quote from: 71 dB on November 02, 2008, 07:25:10 AM
I say it because I don't feel my CDs fall short. Or are you suggesting it's you who are wrong?
Sorry, I tried to quote your post 71db, but I must have clicked on amend, it is back to haow it was, so following on from your comment.....
Possibly best you just to stick to what you actually mean and forget the double think. I am not commenting on your thought processes; but on the CDs and they, following with the score, are audibly defective. Stay happy with them by all means.
Mike
Quote from: knight on November 02, 2008, 11:28:48 AM...but on the CDs and they, following with the score, are audibly defective.
Hard to believe that because I find the sonics on this CD very good.
I am not asking you to believe it; but then if you don't follow it with the score, how can you tell just how good or not the sonics are? But that is old, cold ground. As I said, stay happy.
Mike
Quote from: knight on November 02, 2008, 11:55:36 AM
I am not asking you to believe it; but then if you don't follow it with the score, how can you tell just how good or not the sonics are? But that is old, cold ground. As I said, stay happy.
Mike
I have never followed anything with the score. I have never in my life even seen a score! I evalute the sound quality the way acoustics engineers do.
Oh, well, readers can make up their minds between the two methods.
Mike
Quote from: 71 dB on November 02, 2008, 07:25:10 AM
I say it because I don't feel my CDs fall short. Or are you suggesting it's you who are wrong?
Yeah, I figured that was a cool, creative way of saying what you meant,
Poju.
Spun the Sanctus/Benedictus portion of the Klemperer Missa last night and again was staggered. Monumental.
Quote from: 71 dB on November 02, 2008, 12:03:08 PM
I have never followed anything with the score. I have never in my life even seen a score! I evalute the sound quality the way acoustics engineers do.
If a line, instrument, or voice in the score does not come through on the recording, how can you be sure the sonics are good? Do you think engineers producing recordings pay no attention to the score to ensure the musical textures are faithfully represented?
Quote from: Sforzando on November 03, 2008, 07:16:44 AM
Do you think engineers producing recordings pay no attention to the score to ensure the musical textures are faithfully represented?
Who knows?
Quote from: Sforzando on November 03, 2008, 07:16:44 AM
If a line, instrument, or voice in the score does not come through on the recording, how can you be sure the sonics are good? Do you think engineers producing recordings pay no attention to the score to ensure the musical textures are faithfully represented?
If something is inaudible I'd say the music is badly orchestrated or performed. How about live performances? Who helps the audience hear everything? Anyway, the world is not perfect and sometimes we don't hear everything. That's life.
I agree, often we don't get a good balance of sound out of a live performance. The reason might be those you suggest, though with Beethoven, I doubt it likely it is inept orchestration.
However, if on a recording you know something ought to be there and is missing..... If in addition we are not talking about two bars of flute, but rather about entire minutes of an important element of the music; then to the extent that one recording fails to let you hear what is written and another does; then there are grounds for suggesting that the quality of the engineering of the incomplete sound picture is indeed faulty.
Of course, merely letting you hear what is written is only a start as far as deciding whether a recording is worth having. But it seems to me to be one of the basic building blocks. If you are happy without the bass line, fine. As I said before, enjoy it. Should you hear it live then you might get a pleasant surprise to discover it is not quite the work you thought it was.
Mike
Just a little footnote to the discussion: I have the Schermerhorn recording and have always wondered if the lack of bass was the result of the notably poor accoustics of Ingram Hall where it was recorded as well as perhaps a soloist who lacked the power, and an engineer trying to correct the problems of the hall's accoustic.
Schermerhorn lobbied long and hard for a new concert hall, and eventually after the Board of Directors of the Nashville SO heard the orchestra perform in NY at Carnegie Hall, and was astounded at how differently (more powerful) the orchestra sounded, they finally agreed to build a new hall. After visiting numerous concert halls all over the US and Europe they decided to copy as closely as possible the Musikverein which they felt had ideal accoustics. Unfortunately, Schermerhorn died of cancer before the hall was completed, although he learned it was to be named after him shortly before his death. The new hall named after Schermerhorn does have fantastic accoustics -- no low frequency problems -- which were displayed with a recent televised broadcast of Mahler's 2nd conducted by Louis Slatkin.
Quote from: knight on November 03, 2008, 12:55:54 PM
though with Beethoven, I doubt it likely it is inept orchestration.
Mike
How generous of you Mike..
Quote from: knight on November 03, 2008, 12:55:54 PM
I agree, often we don't get a good balance of sound out of a live performance. The reason might be those you suggest, though with Beethoven, I doubt it likely it is inept orchestration.
However, if on a recording you know something ought to be there and is missing..... If in addition we are not talking about two bars of flute, but rather about entire minutes of an important element of the music; then to the extent that one recording fails to let you hear what is written and another does; then there are grounds for suggesting that the quality of the engineering of the incomplete sound picture is indeed faulty.
Of course, merely letting you hear what is written is only a start as far as deciding whether a recording is worth having. But it seems to me to be one of the basic building blocks. If you are happy without the bass line, fine. As I said before, enjoy it. Should you hear it live then you might get a pleasant surprise to discover it is not quite the work you thought it was.
Mike
So, you are saying the Naxos recording lacks minutes of musical elements? How did they manage to hide them? So, the people at Naxos said to each other "Hey, theres tons of stuff missing but let's release this anyway!". I don't get this!
You are like a dog returning to its own cold vomit.
Sound engineers are usually very careful to allow the various elements of the score to come through. It would be normal practice for them to listen during the recording and playback whilst FOLLOWING THE SCORE, to ensure they faithfully represent that score. What they don't do is listen to the generalised sound and congratulate themselves that it all sounds very nice, without having any reference points to tell them whether their ears deceive them.
Sometimes there are problems with recorded balance. If it is not corrected, that might be due to time and cost considerations. I had the recording you are so wedded to and which you claim is excellent, despite you owning up to not having one clue about what ought to be audible.
I happened to follow it with the score and I explained how the recording failed to allow the choral bass line to be heard for long stretches. That imbalances the composer's intensions. I even listened on headphones.....I have around a dozen versions and culled two, The one you have and the Herrewheghe, that second one was because I did not enjoy the performance.
I have no doubt that Naxos did not intensionally hide the bass line from us; rather in the way I assume you are not intensionally obtuse. Now, that is my last word on that specific issue. As I have pointed out to you before; there are some people one just can't help.
Mike
Quote from: knight on November 15, 2008, 02:29:46 AM
You are like a dog returning to its own cold vomit.
Sound engineers are usually very careful to allow the various elements of the score to come through. It would be normal practice for them to listen during the recording and playback whilst FOLLOWING THE SCORE, to ensure they faithfully represent that score. What they don't do is listen to the generalised sound and congratulate themselves that it all sounds very nice, without having any reference points to tell them whether their ears deceive them.
Sometimes there are problems with recorded balance. If it is not corrected, that might be due to time and cost considerations. I had the recording you are so wedded to and which you claim is excellent, despite you owning up to not having one clue about what ought to be audible.
I happened to follow it with the score and I explained how the recording failed to allow the choral bass line to be heard for long stretches. That imbalances the composer's intensions. I even listened on headphones.....I have around a dozen versions and culled two, The one you have and the Herrewheghe, that second one was because I did not enjoy the performance.
I have no doubt that Naxos did not intensionally hide the bass line from us; rather in the way I assume you are not intensionally obtuse. Now, that is my last word on that specific issue. As I have pointed out to you before; there are some people one just can't help.
Mike
I'm sorry if I have been obtuse. I didn't have a clue about any problems regarding the Naxos recording so I was shocked. I have lived in faith that the version I have in my bookshelf doesn't fall short. I will buy Otto Klemperer's version and compare.
As posted on the funeral thread:
'Missa Solemnis,' a Divine Bit of Beethoven
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5202103
Quote from: Bogey on December 31, 2008, 10:09:44 AM
As posted on the funeral thread:
'Missa Solemnis,' a Divine Bit of Beethoven
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5202103
I read that article a long while ago, but it's well worth posting the link for anyone whom hasn't. Thanks Bill!
The Missa... remains my favorite Choral work.
Quote from: AndyD. on January 18, 2009, 02:44:41 PM
I read that article a long while ago, but it's well worth posting the link for anyone whom hasn't. Thanks Bill!
The Missa... remains my favorite Choral work.
Wow! Tell us more to why Ange. Any favorite moments?
Quote from: AndyD. on January 18, 2009, 02:44:41 PM
The Missa... remains my favorite Choral work.
That is very high praise, considering the wealth of tremendously wonderful Choral works. It is a beaut.....not quite my favorite, but one of several near favorites. :)
I'll say this about the Missa Solemnis.....perhaps one of Beethoven's most underrated masterpieces, if such a thing exists? :)
I just mean, compared to say the 5th and 9th symphonies, et al.
Quote from: ChamberNut on January 18, 2009, 03:52:25 PM
I'll say this about the Missa Solemnis.....perhaps one of Beethoven's most underrated masterpieces, if such a thing exists? :)
I just mean, compared to say the 5th and 9th symphonies, et al.
Well put!
Quote from: Bogey on January 18, 2009, 03:18:27 PM
Wow! Tell us more to why Ange. Any favorite moments?
Sanctus/Benedictus. Not just the so beautiful, sweet solo violin, but just the way the mass is ordered with the orchestra and voices. Incredible imagination and just a creative pinnacle for
anyone.
Quote from: ChamberNut on January 18, 2009, 03:52:25 PM
I'll say this about the Missa Solemnis.....perhaps one of Beethoven's most underrated masterpieces, if such a thing exists? :)
I just mean, compared to say the 5th and 9th symphonies, et al.
I've always considered it
the supreme Beethoven masterpiece. The man himself thought so, too.
Now, for a truly underrated masterpiece try the Mass in C (I like Shaw on Telarc the most).
Quote from: Wanderer on January 18, 2009, 09:08:03 PM
Now, for a truly underrated masterpiece try the Mass in C (I like Shaw on Telarc the most).
Now
there's a great reccomendation! Shaw has more than one excellent cd to his name.
I was trying to think of my favourite moment of this piece... I just couldn't. The whole thing is absolutely magnificent. This was actually Beethoven's favourite, 'ya know! ;D
Quote from: Wanderer on January 18, 2009, 09:08:03 PM
Now, for a truly underrated masterpiece try the Mass in C (I like Shaw on Telarc the most).
Ditto, though I would recommend Gardiner's. 8)
Quote from: Wanderer on January 18, 2009, 09:08:03 PM
I've always considered it the supreme Beethoven masterpiece. The man himself thought so, too.
Now, for a truly underrated masterpiece try the Mass in C (I like Shaw on Telarc the most).
I'm all over it. Absolutely love Shaw at this end. thanks for the rec.
Quote from: Bogey on January 19, 2009, 09:03:31 AM
I'm all over it. Absolutely love Shaw at this end. thanks for the rec.
You'll like it, Boge.
Is there any other who can write more beautiful music for violin than Beethoven? I do not know of anyone. His violin in the benedictus for Missa Solemnis, the beautiful violin concerto, and his romances I and II all tug at the heartstrings in their special Beethove-an way.
Quote from: Anne on January 19, 2009, 09:14:23 PM
Is there any other who can write more beautiful music for violin than Beethoven? I do not know of anyone. His violin in the benedictus for Missa Solemnis, the beautiful violin concerto, and his romances I and II all tug at the heartstrings in their special Beethove-an way.
That's easy to agree with :). I love Menuhin's classic performance of the VC and Romances in particular.
Does anyone here know Horenstein's recording of the Missa Solemnis?
Is it a great one?
It can't be a great one if he didn't have great soloists. And a very good orchestra and chorus. Which I doubt. But let's hear it from those who did.
Singers are Teresa Stich-Randall, Norma Procter and Richard Lewis -- so no problems there!
It's the BBC SO.
And Kim Borg. It should be good, then. Maybe even excellent. I thought it was one of those inferior 1950s Vox productions.
Quote from: AndyD. on January 20, 2009, 02:08:22 AM
That's easy to agree with :). I love Menuhin's classic performance of the VC and Romances in particular.
Thanks for that Menuhin recommendation. Do you know what label, and if they (VC and Romances) are linked with anything else? If so, what comes first in the title? Thanks, Andy!
On the old forum I wrote a fair bit about this piece. It is a favourite, but frankly, I could not drag up the energy, mental rather than physical, that was needed to recast my thoughts. Now the old forum is available, I am copying some of my material from there.
Feb 07. I have been rehearsing recently in the chorus for Beethoven's Missa Solemnis. The lure of the piece determined me to get back to singing after quite a gap. I am enjoying the challenges of its demands. It is not a mountain, it is, rather, scaling a vast range of mountains....often at great speed.
I have quite a few recordings and yesterday on a long train journey I gave the version by Zinman on Arte Nove a spin. I generally like Zinman's work, but I am not taken with this version of the Missa.
The piece was written when Beethoven was deaf, so it is a fully mature work informed by the trials and tribulations, the hopes and disappointments of his life. To me what comes through is struggle and faith. He demands things of God, declares and claims, begs, affirms. The piece stretches the emotional content of liturgy. As I say, it is very much a piece about faith. Beethoven very slightly alters the creed to claim at the start of the affirmation of four great pillars of the Christian faith that, 'Credo', 'I believe'. He stamps these iterations. Small but surely significant alterations to the standard text.
When Beethoven wrote the Mass in C, his friend Archduke Rudolph remarked that there was no fugue. Perhaps we have him to thank for the epic muscular fugues that Beethoven placed in the Gloria and the Agnus Dei. Indeed this muscularity and the feeling of a struggle are what seem to me to be missing from Zinman. Here we appear to be cast back to how Haydn might have developed, the performance is so civilised. The beseeching is polite. Indeed this politeness is a dominant characteristic of the performance and seems to me light years away from what the piece is about. The approach would be much more appropriate with the earlier Mass in C.
Zinman's choir sounds small. I am very happy with one to a part Bach, the St Matthew Passion of all pieces can come across in its full glory and drama with a minimal number of singers. But the Missa Solemnis needs a good weight of sound, not to wallow, but to convey the scale of the piece. Here the chorus never sounds like it is working hard, yet, it ought to. Beethoven writes not just complex choral music, but weighty music, right through there is liberal use of sfortzando in forte passages, he often wants points hammered home, not crudely, but with great strength. Zinman takes another route and the performance, as I indicated, seems to take a backwards look at what it has grown out of rather than what it is moving into.
Another quirk of the performance is that he has the excellent soloists embellish the lines at various points, especially during that eye of the storm, the serene Benedictus. I cannot grasp why he does this, it destroys the purity and arc of a number of phrases and if ever there was music that ought not to sound fussy, it is this. As you would expect, the pacing is swift, not generally too swift; though in one passage it is indeed so fast that full voice cannot be used where it ought to be and the singers gentle their way round a passage that should be stormed.
Altogether the emotions in the piece are narrowed, the raw humanity squeezed out and the revolutionary aspects are 'civilized'. A tame and bouncy twin set and pearls performance when we need blood a deal of sweat and even tears.
http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,13021.0.html
Mike
Quote from: Anne on January 19, 2009, 09:14:23 PM
Is there any other who can write more beautiful music for violin than Beethoven?
Elgar 0:)
Knight:
"The piece was written when Beethoven was deaf, so it is a fully mature work informed by the trials and tribulations, the hopes and disappointments of his life. To me what comes through is struggle and faith. He demands things of God, declares and claims, begs, affirms.
Mike,
The way you have described what Beethoven was doing, how he was approaching it and I believe how the listener should approach the music to understand and link with that music is exactly what was my mindset when I finally comprehended his intent. My recording was Bohm. This is one of Beethoven's last works. A musician! and here he is deaf. Could there ever be a more tragic affliction for him than this?
I was still trying after many attempts to get my first purchase on the music. In my mind as I listened to the Kyrie, I imagined Beethoven saying, "Lord, have mercy (on me"). He was beseeching God. That was the key and the mindset that finally opened that music to me. Those opening notes of that Kyrie are so gorgeous and deeply affecting when one thinks that way. As a matter of fact, it seems quite profound. I have never said that about any other music ever. I totally agree with what you said.
Quote from: AndyD. on January 20, 2009, 02:08:22 AM
That's easy to agree with :). I love Menuhin's classic performance of the VC and Romances in particular.
My recording is Great Recordings of the Century. Furtwangler conducts and Menuhin plays LvB's VC and Mendelssohn's VC. What recordings do you have for his violin works?
Anne, Thanks. The performance I was in went exceptionally well, despite my worries about the reverberant acoustic.
Mike
This is the only version I have on CD. I have the HvK's version on LP ...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AP1PCYQPL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Would you like to tell us what you think about them? Which Karajan version do you have?
Mike
Quote from: knight on February 02, 2009, 10:51:59 PM
Would you like to tell us what you think about them? Which Karajan version do you have?
Mike
I just checked. The LP is HvK/BPO on Angel. This recording must have been remastered and issued on EMI by now ...
Quote from: Coopmv on February 04, 2009, 06:05:19 PM
I just checked. The LP is HvK/BPO on Angel. This recording must have been remastered and issued on EMI by now ...
I do not seem to be able to locate an EMI CD on Missa Solemnis by Karajan. I just confirmed that I do have this on LP issued by Angel, which was the American classical arm of EMI in the good old days ... Can anyone shed some light on this?
Quote from: knight on February 01, 2009, 11:16:00 AM
On the old forum I wrote a fair bit about this piece. It is a favourite, but frankly, I could not drag up the energy, mental rather than physical, that was needed to recast my thoughts. Now the old forum is available, I am copying some of my material from there.
I'm a little late to read this, but thanks for the re-post!
Quote from: Coopmv on February 04, 2009, 06:05:19 PM
I just checked. The LP is HvK/BPO on Angel. This recording must have been remastered and issued on EMI by now ...
I have Karajan's recording of the Missa Solemnis on Deutsche Grammophon, the Gloria and Credo last an absurd 18 and 22 minutes (respectively), with certain passages coming across as lethargic. I have yet to hear a better recording than the glorious work by Goodman and the Hanover Band, it's absolutely magnificent.
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on February 07, 2009, 10:06:56 AM
I have Karajan's recording of the Missa Solemnis on Deutsche Grammophon, the Gloria and Credo last an absurd 18 and 22 minutes (respectively), with certain passages coming across as lethargic. I have yet to hear a better recording than the glorious work by Goodman and the Hanover Band, it's absolutely magnificent.
I do not have the Karajan's version on DG. However, I think there should be an EMI version out there. I do not particularly like the idea of digitizing an LP-set from Angel, which usually has pretty lousy pressing quality ...
Quote from: Coopmv on February 07, 2009, 07:52:43 AM
I do not seem to be able to locate an EMI CD on Missa Solemnis by Karajan. I just confirmed that I do have this on LP issued by Angel, which was the American classical arm of EMI in the good old days ... Can anyone shed some light on this?
IIRC, there certainly is an EMI Missa Solemnis by Karajan, currently available in the second of the "big Karajan boxes" recently issued for the centenary. Unfortunately, it is the one of the two I have yet to rip, or I would have much more information handy. :)
Quote from: Renfield on February 07, 2009, 10:13:20 AM
IIRC, there certainly is an EMI Missa Solemnis by Karajan, currently available in the second of the "big Karajan boxes" recently issued for the centenary. Unfortunately, it is the one of the two I have yet to rip, or I would have much more information handy. :)
I already have many Karajan's EMI recordings and buying those big boxes recently released by EMI probably will leave me stuck with many duplicates ...
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on February 07, 2009, 10:06:56 AM
I have Karajan's recording of the Missa Solemnis on Deutsche Grammophon, the Gloria and Credo last an absurd 18 and 22 minutes (respectively), with certain passages coming across as lethargic. I have yet to hear a better recording than the glorious work by Goodman and the Hanover Band, it's absolutely magnificent.
Errrrr.. sorry, I just can't imagine anyone actually enjoying this ??? . I've heard many performances, from mini to maxi conceptions. Those that work best (Bernstein and Jochum, both with the Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra and Chorus) have a combination of sonic opulence and stylistic trenchancy that work wonders with Beethoven's thick textures and dramatic/ecstatic outpourings. I also like Karajan's BP versions (DG and EMI) but they fail to keep the attention. Any degree of narcissism is fatal in this work. And Karajan's performances are anything but self-effacing.
Before someone brings it up, please don't mention Gardiner. Cosmic grandeur, irrepressible surge and emotional effusiveness are just not in his vocabulary.
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on February 07, 2009, 08:11:18 PM
Errrrr.. sorry, I just can't imagine anyone actually enjoying this ???. I've heard many performances, from mini to maxi conceptions. Those that work best (Bernstein and Jochum, both with the Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra and Chorus) have a combination of sonic opulence and stylistic trenchancy that work wonders with Beethoven's thick textures and dramatic/ecstatic outpourings. I also like Karajan's BP versions (DG and EMI) but they fail to keep the attention. Any degree of narcissism is fatal in this work. And Karajan's performances are anything but self-effacing.
Before someone brings it up, please don't mention Gardiner. Cosmic grandeur, irrepressible surge and emotional effusiveness are just not in his vocabulary.
Well, I can't imagine anyone
not liking Goodman's work here! The glorious sound of the period drums, the absolutely entrancing brass implemented, the richness of the strings mixed with the sensitive-yet-powerful performance make this, in my view, the standard for the piece. Every recording I've heard of this piece (including Bernstein's, Karajan's, Klemperer's) with the standard mega-orchestra-and-chorus loses the piece in a mush of sound and distortion - not to mention the inherent weakness of modern instruments when compared to older designs. 8)
And after hearing all the wretched performances of this piece flying about I must say Gardiner's came as a revelation when I first heard it.
*Prepares for heavy bombardment!* ;D
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on February 08, 2009, 05:04:01 PM
Every recording I've heard of this piece (including Bernstein's, Karajan's, Klemperer's) with the standard mega-orchestra-and-chorus loses the piece in a mush of sound and distortion...
HIP is no cure-all for mushiness. It might just be smaller "mush". ;D
But what you call mush might be interpreted by others as simply 'blended'. Which in a work like the Missa can produce radiant results. Jochum's Concertgebouw recording (Philips) certainly doesn't try for HIP clarity but in its 'blend' it's a fantastic success.
Quote- not to mention the inherent weakness of modern instruments when compared to older designs. 8)
Oh, c'mon...
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on February 07, 2009, 08:11:18 PM
Before someone brings it up, please don't mention Gardiner. Cosmic grandeur, irrepressible surge and emotional effusiveness are just not in his vocabulary.
So agreed. I tend to enjoy many performances that people characterise as unemotional (Boulez's Mahler, for example) but Gardiner's
Missa is just emotionally dead as far as I'm concerned.
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on February 07, 2009, 08:11:18 PM
Errrrr.. sorry, I just can't imagine anyone actually enjoying this ??? . I've heard many performances, from mini to maxi conceptions. Those that work best (Bernstein and Jochum, both with the Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra and Chorus) have a combination of sonic opulence and stylistic trenchancy that work wonders with Beethoven's thick textures and dramatic/ecstatic outpourings. I also like Karajan's BP versions (DG and EMI) but they fail to keep the attention. Any degree of narcissism is fatal in this work. And Karajan's performances are anything but self-effacing.
Sorry, Lilas, but I'm missing something here. Is it Goodman's version you can't imagine anyone liking? Or Karajan's DGG?
I'm totally with you on the Bernstein/COA version (haven't heard Jochum)--all kinds of things to love about that one, not least of which is some stunning violin work by Hermann Krebbers. But re Karajan...while I don't care for his BP versions, as I noted on page one of this thread back in November, I do rather like his 1958 Philharmonia version with Schwarzkopf et al.
This is another example of my needing a spin-off, so that I can review once more and better appreciate what I have on LP (Bernstein/COA, Karajan/Philharmonia, Toscanini/NBC 1950s) and on CD (Toscanini/NBC 1940 and a download of the live 1967 Szell). The Klemperer and the EMI & DGG Karajan/BP versions were jettisoned from my collection long ago, but it's apparent that I also need to hear Jochum and perhaps some newer HIP group for balance. And to that end, I'll now scuttle off and browse the past 6 pages to see if I can find consensus on which newer recording is best liked here.
;D
Dirk
I think a common mistake with this work is to play it as if it was a Bruckner mass. It is his greatest, most profound work, but using slow tempos and huge orchestras does not make it sound grander, it just makes it sound wrong. An over the top Romanticized performance of the Missa Solemnis is like having William Shatner play Hamlet. It might superficially sound more dramatic, but really... it's corny! :D
I like Zinman, and the HIP recordings (such as Gardiner) that I've heard are also fine.
Quote from: DavidW on February 10, 2009, 02:44:17 PM
I think a common mistake with this work is to play it as if it was a Bruckner mass. It is his greatest, most profound work, but using slow tempos and huge orchestras does not make it sound grander, it just makes it sound wrong. An over the top Romanticized performance of the Missa Solemnis is like having William Shatner play Hamlet. It might superficially sound more dramatic, but really... it's corny! :D
I like Zinman, and the HIP recordings (such as Gardiner) that I've heard are also fine.
Totally agree. And Goodman too. Bigger is NOT better. Blech :P
8)
----------------
Listening to:
Gottfried von der Goltz - Musikalisches Opfer, 'Musical Offering'/12a: Trio Sonata in C minor - largo
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 10, 2009, 05:31:14 PM
Totally agree. And Goodman too. Bigger is NOT better. Blech :P
Blech never recorded the Missa Solemnis though, did he? ;D
Quote from: sporkadelic on February 10, 2009, 05:53:38 PM
Blech never recorded the Missa Solemnis though, did he? ;D
Oh yes, it's on a box of 78's somewhere, I'm sure. A "puce dog" or something like that... :P :D
8)
----------------
Listening to:
Haydn: Trios - Trio Franz Joseph - Haydn: Trio #43 In C, H 15/27 - 2. Andante
Quote from: DavidW on February 10, 2009, 02:44:17 PM
I think a common mistake with this work is to play it as if it was a Bruckner mass. It is his greatest, most profound work, but using slow tempos and huge orchestras does not make it sound grander, it just makes it sound wrong. An over the top Romanticized performance of the Missa Solemnis is like having William Shatner play Hamlet. It might superficially sound more dramatic, but really... it's corny! :D
Me likes my big-um Jochum. 0:)
But seriously, I actually do have a HIP version of the Missa: Herreweghe's. It's great, though obviously for different reasons than Jochum.
I can't say Jochum sounds corny to me, though. Now Shatner on the other hand...;D
There's no such thing as a Goodman Missa. It's conducted by Terje Kvam (with Goodman's Hanover Band, and also on Nimbus). I don't like it, nor do I like the other HIP version I heard (Gardiner). Not because they're HIP, but because they don't sound like late Beethoven. And their soloists are all Mini-Me types :P. The real HIP version that will reaveal the work in all its glory has not yet been committed to disc. Meanwhile, we have lots of options. I'm not advocating bloated, humongous and spongious performances. Quite the contrary. I just happen to find that performances like the Bernstein and Jochum 'get' the Missa down pat (not so Karajan or Böhm). They are vital, huge, they are propulsive yet they breathe, and the vocal forces are incredible.
The ONLY 'Bruckner Mass' treatment I heard was by Levine (BPO, DG). And it's a rather recent, one-off effort - well, Klemperer's is not far behind in that respect - and I don't like it.
If the tenets of HIP, lickety-split, small-scale Missa Solemnis were applied to Fidelio or Cherubini's Medea (a contemporary opera), we'd miss most of the drama, intensity, grandeur and humanity of these works. And yet they were composed two decades before the Missa. So why view the latter with the wrong end of the telescope ? ???
Yup Andre, I was thinking of Klemperer when I said the Bruckner mass treatment! :D
Quote from: Coopmv on February 07, 2009, 10:26:02 AM
I already have many Karajan's EMI recordings and buying those big boxes recently released by EMI probably will leave me stuck with many duplicates ...
That was exactly my situation, but the price was worth it, for the sake of rounding out all the hard-to-find ones.
Speaking of
Klemperer, whose Brucknerised Missa Solemnis I do like, I picked up the recent(-ish) Medici Arts live Cologne one, today:
(http://www.mediciarts.co.uk/site_manager/includes/images/product_images/MM015%20resized.jpg)
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on February 10, 2009, 08:04:54 PM
There's no such thing as a Goodman Missa. It's conducted by Terje Kvam (with Goodman's Hanover Band, and also on Nimbus). I don't like it, nor do I like the other HIP version I heard (Gardiner).
Ahh. (*Light dawns*) Thanks for the clarification, Lilas.
Dirk
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on February 10, 2009, 08:04:54 PM
I don't like it, nor do I like the other HIP version I heard (Gardiner).
The ONLY 'Bruckner Mass' treatment I heard was by Levine (BPO, DG). And it's a rather recent, one-off effort - well, Klemperer's is not far behind in that respect - and I don't like it.
Vous allez bien, monsieur? ;D
I like both Levine and Gardiner recordings. ;)
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on February 10, 2009, 08:04:54 PM
So why view the latter with the wrong end of the telescope ? ???
I see this problem differently: it is not a wrong end of a telescope, but different instruments for analyzing a same thing.
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on February 10, 2009, 08:04:54 PM
There's no such thing as a Goodman Missa. It's conducted by Terje Kvam (with Goodman's Hanover Band, and also on Nimbus). I don't like it, nor do I like the other HIP version I heard (Gardiner). Not because they're HIP, but because they don't sound like late Beethoven. And their soloists are all Mini-Me types :P. The real HIP version that will reaveal the work in all its glory has not yet been committed to disc. Meanwhile, we have lots of options. I'm not advocating bloated, humongous and spongious performances. Quite the contrary. I just happen to find that performances like the Bernstein and Jochum 'get' the Missa down pat (not so Karajan or Böhm). They are vital, huge, they are propulsive yet they breathe, and the vocal forces are incredible.
The ONLY 'Bruckner Mass' treatment I heard was by Levine (BPO, DG). And it's a rather recent, one-off effort - well, Klemperer's is not far behind in that respect - and I don't like it.
If the tenets of HIP, lickety-split, small-scale Missa Solemnis were applied to Fidelio or Cherubini's Medea (a contemporary opera), we'd miss most of the drama, intensity, grandeur and humanity of these works. And yet they were composed two decades before the Missa. So why view the latter with the wrong end of the telescope ? ???
Well, late or not, in his own time, Beethoven was played lean and mean, and certainly my preference is for that style. I don't see anything missing in the way of grandeur or Beethoven's own belief in a greater being. The entire concept of massed forces (of any size and at any tempo) conveying drama, intensity and grandeur is strictly one that came about after Beethoven's time. Even in the cathedral where Rudolf was to be installed as Archbishop (the original
raison d'etre of the work) there was and could be no expectation of the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra and Chorus. This is all received taste and expectations. Most of us may indeed prefer it, and I have no problem with that whatsoever. But one can't say that it is correct and "lean and mean" is not. At the least, this is how I interpret your post. My apologies if I have misunderstood you. :)
8)
----------------
Listening to:
Haydn: Trios - Trio Franz Joseph - Haydn: Trio #43 in C, H 15/27 - 3. Presto
Salut, Gabriel, ça fait un bail ! ;).
Well, gentlemen, this is one of the RARE forays I make into contentious territory. As I intimate in my post, I'm not against a HIP version of the Missa, I merely say it hasn't been done well so far. I personally refute the idea that the forces at the composer's disposal ca. 1824 should be taken as a benchmark. There are many indications that composers of the pre-wagnerian concert era longed and pined for big orchestral resources. This was more often than not a mattter of contingencies. Handel and Haydn are known to have basked in the sometimes very large forces at their disposal. Let's not forget that Beethoven's time was a lean one in economic terms. Many Court orchestras were disbanded because of lack of funds, and those that survived were necessarily small in size. Eventually they were integrated in the newly formed State orchestras of the time. If one is to take Beethoven as a forward-looking musician, it's impossible to ignore the direction his music has taken under modern conditions (less orchestras, bigger forces, different instruments). That evolution (and counter-evolution, vide Carlos Kleiber and Osmo Vänskä) is a matter of fact, not conjecture.
Then there is the matter of tempi. The metronome marks are a contentious issue. But the character of a Missa Solemnis ought to point to a certain degree of spaciousness. Just the matter of text articulation by amateur or semi-professional church/court choristers in a church acoustic should make the mush heard in the Kvam recording a lesson on what can and can't be done. As for the preppy, excitable puppy singing heard in the Gardiner, good as it is technically, I consider the idiom thus created totally foreign to Beethoven's - although this is as hypothetical an assertion as Gardiner's concept is. IOW it's his word against mine. But I know what I like and he doesn't ;D
The Missa that *could be* is still waiting for a recording. Bernard Labadie and Les Violons du Roy would be splendid contenders, with soloists Karina Gauvin, Marie-Nicole Lemieux, and a good Tamino and Osmin to round off the singing staff. One thing that hasn't changed is the capacity for human vocal chords and lungs to emit tones like those one expects to hear in those roles (or, even more to the point, those of a Florestan or Pizzarro). Jochum and Bernstein offer two such versions of that urgent, dramatic POV, but they do so with big forces. One CAN'T say Beethoven would have frowned.
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on February 11, 2009, 06:47:01 PM
The Missa that *could be* is still waiting for a recording. Bernard Labadie and Les Violons du Roy would be splendid contenders...
That's a provocative choice and one I heartily agree with. Labadie and his band made a spectacular recording of Mozart's Requiem (on Dorian) so it's logical to assume they'd be a rousing success in the Missa.
Can you gently nudge your compatriots, André? ;D
Hi, Don! Believe it or not, I'm actually going to write whoever cares about that prospect that it should be done. Labadie, ATMA, Les Violons du Roy, etc.
Nice! Good luck. :)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 11, 2009, 05:15:51 PM
Well, late or not, in his own time, Beethoven was played lean and mean
Who told you that? If you look at Thomas Forrest Kelly's "First Nights," he notes from contemporary accounts that at the concert at which the 9th symphony and three movements of the Missa were first performed in 1824, the orchestral forces were augmented, with doubled winds and probably 80+ orchestral performers. Besides the problem with Gardiner is not so much the size of his forces or his use of original instruments, but his complete inability to shape a musical phrase or to find the drama of the work. Gardiner is almost always so damned polite about it all, with the possibly exception of his alto soloist who seems to try breaking free, especially in the opening of the Agnus Dei. But the two big "interruptions" in the Dona nobis - probably the most climactic points in the entire mass - go for virtually nothing in Gardiner, where with Bernstein/Sony they are hair-raising, especially the second interlude where the trumpets and drums come crashing down with full force as expressions of the terror of war.
Quote from: donwyn on February 11, 2009, 07:11:35 PM
That's a provocative choice and one I heartily agree with. Labadie and his band made a spectacular recording of Mozart's Requiem (on Dorian) so it's logical to assume they'd be a rousing success in the Missa.
Labadie and his cohorts also made a dreadful recording of the Goldberg Variations. I'll have to remain skeptical.
Quote from: Bulldog on February 13, 2009, 01:00:35 PM
Labadie and his cohorts also made a dreadful recording of the Goldberg Variations. I'll have to remain skeptical.
I don't envy anybody who tries to make a successful orchestra/choral transcription of a keyboard work (and a harpsichord work at that). That kind of thing seems doomed from the start. I know that's something that I, personally, have no interest in.
But do try to get a hold of Labadie's Requiem recording. It's a barn-burner.
Quote from: Sforzando on February 13, 2009, 12:51:02 PM
Who told you that? If you look at Thomas Forrest Kelly's "First Nights," he notes from contemporary accounts that at the concert at which the 9th symphony and three movements of the Missa were first performed in 1824, the orchestral forces were augmented, with doubled winds and probably 80+ orchestral performers. Besides the problem with Gardiner is not so much the size of his forces or his use of original instruments, but his complete inability to shape a musical phrase or to find the drama of the work. Gardiner is almost always so damned polite about it all, with the possibly exception of his alto soloist who seems to try breaking free, especially in the opening of the Agnus Dei. But the two big "interruptions" in the Dona nobis - probably the most climactic points in the entire mass - go for virtually nothing in Gardiner, where with Bernstein/Sony they are hair-raising, especially the second interlude where the trumpets and drums come crashing down with full force as expressions of the terror of war.
Yes, as a favor to the composer, the Friends of Music provided supplemental musicians to pad out the orchestra and chorus at that concert. Thayer doesn't venture a guess as to how many there were, merely that they were "augmented". Although I submit that their purpose was for the symphony rather than the "3 grand hymns" which were played from the Missa (which is what we were talking about). And this exceptional number still didn't approach the size of a modern orchestra and chorus, so implications that they did go for naught. And they certainly didn't represent the norm in performance at that time. Movements towards larger orchestras (huge in France!) didn't really take hold for another 10-20 years. As public concertizing grew into being the standard, everything grew far out of proportion to what you would have heard in Vienna BBD (
Before
Beethoven's
Death).
I have never heard Gardiner's Missa, so that's a miss as far as I'm concerned. The only full performance on period instruments that I've heard is Hanover Band. I also have Sperling's recreation of the very concert you cite, with the New Orchestra, and it is a very nice performance with plenty of musicality, even though there are just the 3 hymns excerpted. I am just as susceptible to drama as the next person, and I am actually capable of enjoying such music both in modern performance and post-Romantic style as well as played by the forces that were current when the music was composed. How fortunate for me. :)
8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2009, 04:40:57 PM
How fortunate for me. :)
Others share in that good fortune. :)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2009, 04:40:57 PM
I am actually capable of enjoying such music both in modern performance and post-Romantic style as well as played by the forces that were current when the music was composed. How fortunate for me. :)
8)
I am the same way. The quality of a performance has nothing to do with whether the work is performed on modern instruments or on period instruments. I actually hate the term authentic instruments as it has the connotation that modern instruments provide inauthentic performance. My attitude extends to such masterpieces as Handel Messiah, Bach Brandenburg Concertos, etc. where my top three favorites always include a version played on modern instruments ...
Quote from: Coopmv on February 13, 2009, 05:06:21 PM
I am the same way. The quality of a performance has nothing to do with whether the work is performed on modern instruments or on period instruments. I actually hate the term authentic instruments as it has the connotation that modern instruments provide inauthentic performance. My attitude extends to such masterpieces as Handel Messiah, Bach Brandenburg Concertos, etc. where my top three favorites always include a version played on modern instruments ...
Well, I don't go all the way back to the Baroque with it, but I understand those who do. I don't, in any case, use the term "Historically Informed Performance" any more (except in my avatar, because it's... HIP :D ), I always use "period instrument performance" because that's what I will concede it to be. That said, I greatly prefer the sound of period instruments, but that's just my taste. I do, however, dislike a lot of Romantic Era orchestral devices to be applied to Classical Era music, on the stated premise that "that's what Beethoven (Mozart, Haydn etc.) would have done if he had thought of it". That's tough to swallow. Romantic Era music, however, is just fine with it, since that is what it was written for... :)
8)
Quote from: donwyn on February 13, 2009, 04:57:00 PM
Others share in that good fortune. :)
Indeed they do. And others don't... :-\
8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2009, 04:40:57 PM
I have never heard Gardiner's Missa, so that's a miss as far as I'm concerned.
How fortunate for you.
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2009, 04:40:57 PM
The only full performance on period instruments that I've heard is Hanover Band. I also have Sperling's recreation of the very concert you cite, with the New Orchestra, and it is a very nice performance with plenty of musicality, even though there are just the 3 hymns excerpted. I am just as susceptible to drama as the next person, and I am actually capable of enjoying such music both in modern performance and post-Romantic style as well as played by the forces that were current when the music was composed. How fortunate for me. :)
Forces, schmorces. I would be far more capable of enjoying the Gardiner performance if it were played and sung better.
It seems as if all of this Gardiner discussion popped up simply because I said "(such as Gardiner)". I didn't really mean to use Gardiner as the poster child for all HIPs. It's simply the first HIP recording that popped into my head that I've heard!
Really, Gurn hasn't even heard Gardiner by his own admission. Perhaps we could just move right past the Gardiner recording and generalize to HIP recordings a bit more...
Quote from: Sforzando on February 13, 2009, 06:29:33 PM
How fortunate for you.
Forces, schmorces. I would be far more capable of enjoying the Gardiner performance if it were played and sung better.
Well, despite your protestations that you are inclined to like period performances, I can't remember you ever saying you actually liked one. There is always something about it, whether it is the playing (that's it usually) or something else that sticks in your craw which makes it unacceptable. I am rather pleased that I don't know as much about music as you do: it allows me to just sit back and enjoy what I'm listening to, rather than to critically dissect everything looking for something to ruin it for myself. :)
8)
I *seem* to recall (Alzheimer's reprieve 0:)) that I gave a very warm welcome to the Spering recording of Drei Hymnen (from the Missa). Because it was so beautifully performed (meaning: with great musicality). Therein lies the proof of the pudding. Musicality, adherence to the composer's ethos and technically clean outstanding realization will go a long way to rouse my interest - HIP ot not ! I mentioned Labadie, but if Spering were to record the whole work, I'd be mightily interested in the results (provided he made sure to get great soloists).
Quote from: Bulldog on February 13, 2009, 01:00:35 PM
Labadie and his cohorts also made a dreadful recording of the Goldberg Variations. I'll have to remain skeptical.
There are two possible contenders for my ideal HIP Missa Solemnis (because I haven't seen it yet... :-\).
Frieder Bernius (on Carus) or Bruno Weil (Analekta). Or maybe Thomas Hengelbrock?
Q
There's been one middling comment about the recent Herreweghe Missa solemnis (by DD). Anyone who has heard it care to make some comments?
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/02/ciu/2b/33/dde3e10e22a0c2b985e3f110.L.jpg)
I assume this is the performance that is being referred to. Perhaps it depends just what you want from this piece. I believe this performance looks back to Haydn rather than allows the sheer muscle and sinew of the piece to burst out of it. The whole thing is much too civilised.
The choir is well trained, technically excellent, but never sounds like it is breaking a sweat or having to 'try'. So much of this music is about straining for faith, fighting to find the way through. The choir ought not to sound like it is singing Parry, there is nothing polite about this work, it is demanding on so many levels, one of which is physical on the performers....not a mountain, but a range of mountains. It miraculously displays a physicality to the spiritual doubts that thread their way through the work. A great deal is being lost when it all sounds easy.
So, I junked the disc.....but.....lots of people praised it when it was issued. I stick by my views. I did write a long piece on the Missa on the old site, I have not been able to turn it up and I can't be hacked going over the ground in detail again....well, not yet anyway.
Mike
This CD is on its way to me from the other side of the pond and will join this LP that has been in my music library for some 25 years ...
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/93943.jpg)
Much as I admire Davis, all you are doing is adding another middling version of the piece to your collection. That may be fair enough in a number of pieces, but with this one, middling simply will not do.
Mike
Quote from: knight on June 26, 2010, 03:11:36 AM
Much as I admire Davis, all you are doing is adding another middling version of the piece to your collection. That may be fair enough in a number of pieces, but with this one, middling simply will not do.
Mike
My collection on this work is not where it should be and I will remedy it in time. Here are the other two versions in my collection ...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AP1PCYQPL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Quote from: Mandryka on January 21, 2009, 02:17:55 AM
Does anyone here know Horenstein's recording of the Missa Solemnis?
Is it a great one?
Yes !
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41VFDZHJKPL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5vnZAEVqMA&feature=PlayList&p=ADD86816414E7DB9&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=20 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5vnZAEVqMA&feature=PlayList&p=ADD86816414E7DB9&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=20)
Quote from: Coopmv on June 26, 2010, 03:29:07 AM
My collection on this work is not where it should be and I will remedy it in time. Here are the other two versions in my collection ...
I had to do a double take with your second version. I have this one:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41T3KGJ8QEL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
If you can't see the smaller print, the soloists are Janowitz, Ludwig, Wunderlich, and Berry. (On 2 CDs because it's approximately 85 minutes long).
Always preferred the Mozart with which it was coupled because Karajan made the MS sound bombastic in many places. Having been a member of a chorus that sang it, I know it doesn't have to be.
I've also got the Davis in the Brilliant release you have. Nothing to raise my enthusiasm. The only other version I have is Zinman's, which also misses in some places but far fewer than the others.
Quote from: kishnevi on June 26, 2010, 07:57:09 AM
I had to do a double take with your second version. I have this one:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41T3KGJ8QEL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
If you can't see the smaller print, the soloists are Janowitz, Ludwig, Wunderlich, and Berry. (On 2 CDs because it's approximately 85 minutes long).
Always preferred the Mozart with which it was coupled because Karajan made the MS sound bombastic in many places. Having been a member of a chorus that sang it, I know it doesn't have to be.
I've also got the Davis in the Brilliant release you have. Nothing to raise my enthusiasm. The only other version I have is Zinman's, which also misses in some places but far fewer than the others.
Colin Davis is a much better interpreter of Berlioz's works than he is for Beethoven's. I was somewhat underwhelmed with his Beethoven cycle.
No doubt I will get the Missa Solemnis by Karajan on DG at some point but it is not a high priority at this point ...
I rather like tht Karajan recording and prefer it to the later one with Baltsa. There are some elements that are suposed to sound militaristic, towards the end, but if you find it agressively bombastic, then it will not be pleasing you.
Bohm has advantages, but the choir is poorly integrated and single voices stick out.
Levive has a better second half than first.
Toscanini has fire and energy
There is a live Szell, it has everything I want from a performance.
I did not enjoy Zinman and got rid of it.
Mike
Here is the problem with big box, as I did not even realize that I actually have another version of Missa Solemnis buried in this set I bought last year, which I zipped through without having developed much impression for it ...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5105mlW%2BU6L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I'm still looking for a Missa solemnis to love.
Gardiner: as far as I am concerned, entirely misses the point.
Zinman: gets the ecstatic nature of some of the writing, but is a very superficial account generally.
Giulini: A rare case of me being convinced by consistently slow tempi in Beethoven, but I think it's more about Giulini than it is about the Missa.
Bohm '75: the closest I've found (and Gerhart Hetzel's solo in the Benedictus is spinechilling), but I think I'm more attuned to faster tempi.
Yes, I do like the Guilini, but find it a bit over reverent. I tend to agree about the Gardiner, I need to give it a bit of a spin.
Mike
Knight - Thanks for the eval of the Herreweghe.
No sweat.
Mike
QuoteHere is the problem with big box, as I did not even realize that I actually have another version of Missa Solemnis buried in this set I bought last year, which I zipped through without having developed much impression for it ...
This is my favorite MS, and I think the only recording by Harnoncourt which I really like
Quote from: Verena on June 26, 2010, 11:41:09 AM
This is my favorite MS, and I think the only recording by Harnoncourt which I really like
Really? I should find time to give the Harnoncourt's version a second listen.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41CDEGZ5QWL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
This version has a lot going for it. All round excellence.
Mike
QuoteReally? I should find time to give the Harnoncourt's version a second listen.
Yes, I think it's wonderful; though it is also the first version I ever heard and one of my first CDs - perhaps that has something to do with it. However, IF Klemperer had had Karajan's soloists, then Klemper would probably be my favorite.
Quote from: Verena on June 26, 2010, 12:10:55 PM
Yes, I think it's wonderful; though it is also the first version I ever heard and one of my first CDs - perhaps that has something to do with it. However, IF Klemperer had had Karajan's soloists, then Klemper would probably be my favorite.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YCZIRrWGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
But Elisabeth Soderstrom and Marga Hoffgen should be quite good. No?
If you like lemon juice for a soprano. But I am probably in a minority of one regarding that performance.
Mike
Quote from: knight on June 26, 2010, 11:52:28 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41CDEGZ5QWL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
This version has a lot going for it. All round excellence.
Mike
I think that's the one I have.
QuoteBut Elisabeth Soderstrom and Marga Hoffgen should be quite good. No?
The main problem for me is the tenor - Kmentt - no match for Karajan's Wunderlich. Hoffgen is OK, but Christa Ludwig (for Karajan) is my favorite mezzo soprano and has a much more beautifuly voice IMO.
Though to be honest, the Mezzo gets very little opportunity to shine in this piece. The other three get by far more rewarding and noticeable vocal lines.
I enjoy Baker as the Mezzo in the Guilini.
Mike
Quote from: edward on June 26, 2010, 09:20:39 AM
I'm still looking for a Missa solemnis to love.
Edward, try this one. (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?ordertag=Condrecom56261-150205&album_id=150205) Jochum w/ the Concertgebouw from a long OOP Philips set, available only from Arkiv's on demand service (barring the isolated inflated $$ Amazon disc).
It's a recording I introduced André to long ago (where is he, btw) and who's since taken to recommending it highly. His review can be found elsewhere on this thread.
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/phi426648.jpg)
We may discard it because of the typically compacted sound of the 1950's NY Philharmonic, because the soloists are not stellar or stylish enough, or just because this live recording was never credited in any of the official cannons of the critic.
But if you are not addicted to technical perfection and are prepared to experience the Missa Solemnis as an emotional and almost intimate religious experience you may just try it. The Archipel notes refer August 11 1953 but the correct date should probably be November 1953.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41VAZ4KWBNL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Are there any thoughts on the Giulini recording on EMI? It doesn't appear to have been mentioned, but it's for $8 at Presto right now. I have not heard the Missa and am seeking a first introduction...
I have mentioned it. It is highly musical, emotional, quite beautiful. But to me it lacks fire. It is reverend. The soloists are very good; it is certainly worth listening to.
Mike
Knight:
QuoteBut to me it lacks fire. It is reverend.
I dig. The Reverend Missa Solemnis lacked fire in her inaugural sermon... ;D
Yes, that was a nice typo....think I will leave it alone.
Mike
Help me find Szell's version!!
Love this work and currently own Klemp's and Bernstein's with CO. But have always dreamed of acquiring Szell's live version with Cleveland. Several members mentioned downloading such recording, so I'm VERY curious as to how you guys got it! I've been searching online for months trying find this recording!
Your help is GREATLY appreciated!!
By the way, isn't the Missa a work Toscanini always conducted well? There seems to be many versions out there. Which one is the best, all things considered?
Still dreaming about the Szell live version....
Quote from: ajlee on January 09, 2011, 10:29:29 PM
By the way, isn't the Missa a work Toscanini always conducted well? There seems to be many versions out there. Which one is the best, all things considered?
Still dreaming about the Szell live version....
The Toscanini from the 1930s is nice because of the "Agnus Dei", the horn trio, then Kipnis whose great cries of "Miserere" are like something out of Boris Godunov.
I'm sure this Boris quality is intrinsic to the music -- not just something Kipnis brings. Just something he does better than anyone else.
My favourite modern Missa is Gielen's DVD.
Quote from: Mandryka on January 10, 2011, 10:11:15 AM
My favourite modern Missa is Gielen's DVD.
That sounds like a great version! I admire Gielen (because of his wonderfully intelligent & exciting Mahler cycle), and his orchestra can play!~
But that DVD is probably quite pricy, tho, no?
Quote from: ajlee on January 12, 2011, 10:12:27 PM
That sounds like a great version! I admire Gielen (because of his wonderfully intelligent & exciting Mahler cycle), and his orchestra can play!~
But that DVD is probably quite pricy, tho, no?
The sound only is here, for less than $3
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Missa-Solemnis-Various/dp/B000002X8T/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1287693437&sr=1-2&tag=533633855-20
Thx for the info!!
I noticed something interesting after having heard different versions of Missa.
In Klemperer's EMI version, he has the soloists sing the "Pleni sunt caeli...." and "Hosanna....." (in Sanctus), while in other versions it's the entire chorus that sing these lines. Basically, in Klemperer, there's no choral singing in Sanctus until Benedictus.
So what does the score say and who's following the score?? Since more versions do not do what Klemperer does, I guess maybe old Klemp's the one not following the score? Not that I object, since his soloists sing those lines with passion and conviction, and the result is great.
I don't have the full score, but the last time I was learning it the conductor said something to the effect that this is occasionally sung by the soloists, but we will have the choir sing it....which does not mean it was written into the score, it may be tradition, dunno.
I have had a trawl through some sites, but only find mention of the choir singing those passages and I have never heard them sung by soloists.
Mike
Quote from: knight on January 14, 2011, 11:19:28 PM
I don't have the full score, but the last time I was learning it the conductor said something[.....]
Hi Mike,
You obviously are a highly trained musician! Are you a singer in a choir or an orchestra member? Because only a highly proficient chorus/orchestra---and conductor---will dare to tackle a monstrous work like the Missa.
I am a singer, 1st Bass. I was in what was then the Scottish National Orchestra Chorus, then also the Edinburgh Festival Chorus and the Scottish Philharmonic Singers. Since moving to England I have only been singing sporadically.
I have sung the work four times. Ironically the first time ought to have been with Maazel with your favourite orchestra in Cleveland; but the orchestra went on strike the day we flew over from Scotland.
Rather later we sang it at the London Proms with Solti and at the Edinburgh Festival with him. Then in Gloucestershire I sang it for Andrew Nethsingha who has recently taken over St John's College Cambridge choir, but who was then the Director of Music at Gloucester Cathedral.
But just last year I sang it again as a member of a local choir which joined up with another choir. My current choir is the second oldest choral society in the country and we at that point had Benjamin Nicholas as choir master. He was an excellent choral trainer and brought the choir to a very good standard and considering there are not even auditions, the results were pretty amazing. I joined the choir specifically to sing the Beethoven.
The London performance with Solti was the most exciting, but the other performances were also memorable.
Mike
Mike,
.....That is just way too cool! =) It would be like a dream to participate in a performance of this transcendent work.
Missa Solemnis: Lucy Crowe, Jennifer Johnson, James Gilchrist, Matthew Rose: Monteverdi Choir, Orch Revolutionnaire et Romantique, Gardiner, live recording London
This is Gardiner's second recording. His first won prizes, this one probably will, I don't much like it. There are lots of good things here and many people will be happy. I bought it on the strength of ecstatic reviews of the concert. It is very well prepared. The choir is small and that is no problem when the singers are basically professionals with substantial voices. Lucy Crowe is terrific and the final movement gives jolts like no other version.
The second and third movements do take fire and are propulsive. But listen to Toscanini who manages such speeds with a large choir. That does prove that you don't have to have a small choir to enable such speeds. But the real point I am making here is that for me Toscanini makes my hair stand on end, Gardiner only prompts my admiration.
I very much dislike the modification of vowels, for example 'Gloria'. The word is sung open and raw with mouth wide open and that is a trick to force more sound out, presumably to compete with the orchestra. It is ugly, it happens in an exposed entry in the final movement, where the men sound momentarily out of focus, and here there is no competition with the players. I dislike the tenor who sounds like an English Bleater to me. He is specifically praised in the live reviews: perhaps the microphone does not like his voice. The mezzo is anonymous, the bass, fine.
The Sanctus is robbed of its benedictory essence. The violin is played with minimal vibrato or warmth, it unsurprisingly sounds slightly flat once or twice and the movement fails to provide contemplation, pedestrian.
As I wrote, there are great things here. The phrasing is flexible and the changes of gear in movements two and three are well managed to allow breathing space within the maelstroms. The final movement is revelatory, stark in highlighting the pull of doubt in the hope for peace, the war music cracks the surface more clearly than I have heard.
I predict people will rave about it and as so often: I find myself admiring Gardiner's work more than enjoying it.
I will return to it in a while with lower expectations which might well then be met. I am disappointed.
Mike
Quote from: ajlee on January 14, 2011, 10:24:48 PM
I noticed something interesting after having heard different versions of Missa.
In Klemperer's EMI version, he has the soloists sing the "Pleni sunt caeli...." and "Hosanna....." (in Sanctus), while in other versions it's the entire chorus that sing these lines. Basically, in Klemperer, there's no choral singing in Sanctus until Benedictus.
So what does the score say and who's following the score?? Since more versions do not do what Klemperer does, I guess maybe old Klemp's the one not following the score? Not that I object, since his soloists sing those lines with passion and conviction, and the result is great.
According to this (http://javanese.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/0/03/IMSLP12545-Beethoven_Mass_Benedictus.pdf) edition, Klemperer is actually following the score, while others aren't. But I suspect an error in the edition. It's not reasonable to expect single singers to be heard over the orchestral tumult of
Pleni sunt coeli and
Osanna, and while Beethoven did demand much from his singers, he didn't demand THAT much! The Klemperer recording (which I haven't heard) must have had great recording engineers.
Norbert Gertsch's edition from the new Beethoven-Gesamtausgabe gives only soloists in the Sanctus until the Benedictus. Pending further investigation I'd put my money on that being correct, but Gertsch's critical commentary (which I don't have handy) surely covers this issue if there's controversy surrounding it.
I have several recordings. I'll give them quick listens some time soon and report back.
Quote from: aquariuswb on December 05, 2013, 07:59:50 PM
Norbert Gertsch's edition from the new Beethoven-Gesamtausgabe gives only soloists in the Sanctus until the Benedictus. Pending further investigation I'd put my money on that being correct, but Gertsch's critical commentary (which I don't have handy) surely covers this issue if there's controversy surrounding it.
I have several recordings. I'll give them quick listens some time soon and report back.
I look forward to your analysis on the matter. Our Beethoven would be hoarse with swearing (again) if he thought something was amiss...
Quote from: knight66 on December 04, 2013, 01:53:55 PM
Missa Solemnis: Lucy Crowe, Jennifer Johnson, James Gilchrist, Matthew Rose: Monteverdi Choir, Orch Revolutionnaire et Romantique, Gardiner, live recording London
This is Gardiner's second recording. His first won prizes, this one probably will, I don't much like it. There are lots of good things here and many people will be happy. I bought it on the strength of ecstatic reviews of the concert. It is very well prepared. The choir is small and that is no problem when the singers are basically professionals with substantial voices. Lucy Crowe is terrific and the final movement gives jolts like no other version.
The second and third movements do take fire and are propulsive. But listen to Toscanini who manages such speeds with a large choir. That does prove that you don't have to have a small choir to enable such speeds. But the real point I am making here is that for me Toscanini makes my hair stand on end, Gardiner only prompts my admiration.
I very much dislike the modification of vowels, for example 'Gloria'. The word is sung open and raw with mouth wide open and that is a trick to force more sound out, presumably to compete with the orchestra. It is ugly, it happens in an exposed entry in the final movement, where the men sound momentarily out of focus, and here there is no competition with the players. I dislike the tenor who sounds like an English Bleater to me. He is specifically praised in the live reviews: perhaps the microphone does not like his voice. The mezzo is anonymous, the bass, fine.
The Sanctus is robbed of its benedictory essence. The violin is played with minimal vibrato or warmth, it unsurprisingly sounds slightly flat once or twice and the movement fails to provide contemplation, pedestrian.
As I wrote, there are great things here. The phrasing is flexible and the changes of gear in movements two and three are well managed to allow breathing space within the maelstroms. The final movement is revelatory, stark in highlighting the pull of doubt in the hope for peace, the war music cracks the surface more clearly than I have heard.
I predict people will rave about it and as so often: I find myself admiring Gardiner's work more than enjoying it.
I will return to it in a while with lower expectations which might well then be met. I am disappointed.
Mike
Thanks,
Mike, for the detailed review! I had this pre-ordered (mainly due to the concert reviews, as you say) and it's on its way to me.
I very much hope you can give a contrasting report on it and thoroughly enjoy it.
Mike
Quote from: Scots John on December 05, 2013, 08:05:45 PM
I look forward to your analysis on the matter. Our Beethoven would be hoarse with swearing (again) if he thought something was amiss...
Okay, I've sampled some Sancti and here is what I found:
Recordings in which the chorus comes in at "Pleni sunt coeli":
- Giulini
- Eschenbach
- Karajan ('66)
- Levine
- Bernstein (NYPO)
- Bernstein (Royal Concertgebouw)
- Kubelik
- Shaw
- Davis ('77)
- Solti ('95)
Recordings in which the chorus doesn't come in until the Benedictus:
- Zinman
- Gardiner ('90)
- Harnoncourt ('92)
- Klemperer
Recordings in which the chorus comes in at "Osanna, osanna in excelsis":
I'll try to look at Gertsch's critical report soon. If I don't follow up here within a week or two feel free to remind me.
I couldn't find mention of this Sanctus chorus/soloist issue in Gertsch's critical report (though I don't discount the possibility that I overlooked it—my German's nicht sehr gut), but I discovered that William Drabkin actually addresses it in a book I own.
And how convenient!—the relevant passage is freely available on Google Books!
Read from the middle of p. 24 through the end of the section on p. 26: http://books.google.com/books?id=LAXIZOTyUPYC&pg=PA24
Endnote #2, which you can't access there, reads:
QuoteI believe that not only the 'Pleni' and 'Osanna' but also the opening 'Sanctus' section should be performed by the full chorus. In Austrian mass settings of the period, the 'Sanctus' was almost always assigned to the chorus, the solo parts entering only in the Benedictus. This was Haydn's procedure in all his later masses (apart from a very small modification in the Missa in tempore belli), and Beethoven's in the Mass in C. Had Beethoven decided on something quite different for the Missa solemnis, would he not have made his intentions absolutely clear in the autograph score?
So it seems that using only soloists until the Benedictus is the most textually literal option, but the composer's intent isn't entirely clear, and there's arguably enough ambiguity in the sources to justify bringing in the chorus earlier in the movement. Probably most conductors who've done so had practical or musical reasons (maybe what jochanaan suggested, for instance). Drabkin, however, goes a step further, arguing for the use of full chorus from the very start of the Sanctus on the basis of firmly established convention. No performance I've heard does that.
Quote from: aquariuswb on December 12, 2013, 11:08:59 AM
...Drabkin, however, goes a step further, arguing for the use of full chorus from the very start of the Sanctus on the basis of firmly established convention. No performance I've heard does that.
Interesting! I'm trying to imagine how that
Sanctus might sound with full chorus; they would have to sing very softly--yeah, that might work beautifully; chorus singing
sotto voce, especially right at the end, then exploding into full volume at
Pleni sunt coeli! Makes a lot more sense than expecting the soloists to carry the musical weight, and it might explain why there is no specific marking for chorus to enter until the
Benedictus.
P.S. Is there a facsimile of the autograph online?
The autograph score for the Sanctus (and the Credo and Agnus Dei) is housed at the Staatsbibliothek zu Berlin (cataloged as Artaria 202), but the SBB—unlike the Beethoven Haus in Bonn—hasn't digitized their collection. So I doubt you'll find it online.
They did, however, make microfiche of their Beethoven manuscripts about a decade ago (I think), and copies of that can be found in several libraries in the States: http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/51716959
I might find time to take a look at my local copy and make a few scans, if you're interested.
Quote from: aquariuswb on December 20, 2013, 05:46:54 AM
...I might find time to take a look at my local copy and make a few scans, if you're interested.
Just tell us whether Beethoven specified soloists or chorus at the Sanctus' opening. 8)
Quote from: jochanaan on December 20, 2013, 07:31:26 PM
Just tell us whether Beethoven specified soloists or chorus at the Sanctus' opening. 8)
Hehe. I guess that's the problem, isn't it?—that he didn't specify.
Beethoven's Missa Solemnis
Does anyone here own the London CD 4443372 with Sir Georg Solti? I hear a strange sound in the right channel in the Gloria at 0:15. I cannot tell if it is some bizarre digital artifact or an acoustical phenomemon. As far as I know, this is NOT a live recording. The sound is almost as though one of the second violins may be out of sync with the others for a second or two(?).
Thank you!
I have it and don't hear anything unusual 15 seconds into the Gloria. I listened on speakers (haven't checked with headphones).
Thanks for checking!
My particular CD may have a minor digital glitch. I have seen this happen before, where only a particular CD has a problem and another copy of the CD is just fine. Please note that I am referring only to original store-bought CDs in like-new condition and not burnt CDs. Also, I believe that my system is probably higher resolution than average. By the way - the strange sound only lasts about one second. It is oddly distracting because it seems so out of place. If this were a live recording - I would go so far as to say that perhaps a large moth or dragonfly flew right in front of the microphone.
I remember something like this happed on a Telarc CD years back. I contacted Telarc and asked them about it. They were kind enough to investigate and assured me that I was hearing a loud sharp sniff from the condutor. Oh well. Res ipsa loquitur.
Thanks again!
Following up on what the noise sounds like:
Imagine an analog master tape with a slight irregularity (crease or wrinkle) in the surface. The noise I am hearing makes me think of this surface flaw passing the tape head. But please note that this is a DDD recording. I am only trying to describe the nature of the sound.
And now for something completely different:
Do you prefer the Missa Solemnis sung in "Italian" Latin or "Academic" Latin, aka "German" Latin? I prefer the Academic Latin with the "G" pronounced as in English rather than like a "J" and the "C" pronounced like an "S" rather than "CH".
I sang it several times in a Italianate Latin, then when in Choir under Solti, he insisted on Germanic Latin. It was easier to penetrate the textures with hard vowels and plosives. I have since been reverted to Italianate. But it is a privilege to sing it any old how.
Mike
I prefer actual Latin with the Cs pronounced as Ks and the Vs as Ws. ;)
(Side note: haven't noticed any problems with my copy of the Solti Gloria either)
I agree with you, AMW, regarding Latin.
The problem with my CD is subtle - you almost have to listen for it - but it is definitely there - at least on my CD it is.
I just purchased a CD copy on the Naxos label 8.557060 and thus far I am delighted with it. I will have to listen a few more times to verify my delight. This recording was made in the USA by somewhat "unknown" artists - as is normal for the Naxos label. One thing I find a little strange about this recording is that the pauses between the parts of the Mass are abnormally long. This is NOT a live recording. I avoid live recordings as best I can.
I junked that performance, as in binned it, as it was impossible to follow long stretches of the bass choral line. I thought it badly engineered.
Mike
Before I reply regarding a new recording of this work, I will make an additional comment regarding my post that started this thread. After listening to several different recordings, there is indeed something going in the beginnings of the Gloria that can sometimes manifest as an anomalous acoustical phenonmemon. It may have something to do with the strings playing off eachother. Since I do not have the score and would not be qualified to evaulate it if I did have it, I am unable to say more about this.
I just purchased the 2012 recording by Philippe Herreweghe, UPC # 5400439000070, and I am enjoying it very much. It exhibits an elegant subtlety and economy of scale which brings out the details and the finer points. My only negative comment regards the packaging. The booklet is thick; but instead of packaging the CD in a conventional jewel case and enclosing both the jewel case and the booklet in a cardboard outer cover, there is no jewel case and the CD and the booklet are inside one of those cheap cardbard folders with the CD anchored by a very tight center holder which is so tight that one must bend the CD in an unacceptable manner in order to release it. I will simply keep the CD in a spare jewel case that I have on hand and file the booklet next to it.
Another source regarding the use of soloists or choir in the Sanctus/Benedictus, none other than Anton Schindler...
http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org/post8647.html#p8647
Beethoven Missa Solemnis: Donath, Soffell, Jerusalem, Sotin, Edinburgh Festival Chorus, Solti LPO live London Prom 1982 LPO/BBC issue
When this performance was notified for issue recently, I put a post onto the New Releases thread advertising it. I then sat back and eagerly awaited its arrival. i was in the performance and below I have copied from an ancient thread on conductors where I wrote the following.
'One year at the Edinburgh Festival we did the Missa Solemnis with Solti, went straight down to London and repeated it as a prom. I know he comes in for a lot of stick, but even those who would not have his Wagner as a doorstopper were eating out of his hand. He was not well at the first performance, but throughout the rehearsals he was good humoured. He was exact in what he wanted and asked for and got a Germanic pronunciation of the of the Latin. He shouted all the time, not aggressively, but to clarify what he wanted without stopping. He did not use a baton in piano rehearsals, but did when we got to the orchestral rehearsals. He was on good terms with the orchestra. In the two days between the performances he recovered and we were confronted by a dynamo for the second performance. I have a tape of the Prom and I don't think the choir ever sounded better, the energy within the first two movements was remarkable, nor did he simply skate over the reflective passages. I maintain he is an across the score conductor as against an up and down the page guy, that is to say, he seems to grip the tempo and pace and accuracy of entries predominantly over the texture, though he certainly did not ignore colour.'
So, did the disc live up to memory and hope? Yes and no. The performance is I think pretty much top drawer in every department. The choir sings gloriously and I am tempted to say I have never heard it better sung. The attacks are ferocious, the lines are well and equally weighted and the choir copes with even the fastest tempi in the molten crucible of Movement 3. They also sing gently and with terrific legato when needed.
The soloists are all excellent, Sotin especially, a deep warm bath of a voice. Donath I felt had a voice one size too small for the soprano part, but sounds just fine with the help of the microphones. Solti's approach is rightly energetic and he allows the reflective music to breathe. The Sanctus has great calm within it.
But.......the sound off this disc is poor. Someone called Laurie Watt is thanked for facilitating the release of this recording. I suspect she owned the source used for the release and that the BBC had not preserved its live transmission. My guess is she recorded it on her mobile cassette recorder. The sound is muddy and compressed, gritty and clogged. So, had the BBC preserved it properly, it might be right up there in the top recommendations. But in all honesty I think the sound is so bad that I could only recommend it to the likes of myself, as a souvenir of a fantastic, exciting evening.
What might have been........
Mike
Recently, in Lisbon, I picked up a bargain Missa for 3€. The names attracted me, Stich-Randall, Rössel-Majdan, Patzak and Frick with Vienna orchestral and choral forces. The conductor I had never heard of, Volkmar Andrae, on looking him up, I see he was Swiss and died in the 1960s. This is a live oerformance, probably a radio recording.
In the main the soloists do well, especially Stich-Randall, though Patzak loses the plot in one of the fast passages. The chorus, as with the Vienna Bohm version, is poorly blended and sounds raw, they also have a lot of problems sticking with the conductor. In fact, I came to the conclusion that the conductor is the problem, as ensemble is often very rocky and the orchestra has some untypical fluffs. I suspect his odd tempi are not well signaled. As the sound quality is also congested, I see no reason to put yourself through this performance, despite the efforts of the excellent soloists.
Mike
Fascinating read about the 1982 performance; I tried singing in a choir some few years ago, couldn't judge the intervals too well, even with it being Poulenc work I knew well from recordings.
Quote from: knight66 on February 16, 2015, 12:41:29 AM
Recently, in Lisbon, I picked up a bargain Missa for 3€. The names attracted me, Stich-Randall, Rössel-Majdan, Patzak and Frick with Vienna orchestral and choral forces. The conductor I had never heard of, Volkmar Andrae, on looking him up, I see he was Swiss and died in the 1960s. This is a live oerformance, probably a radio recording.
In the main the soloists do well, especially Stich-Randall, though Patzak loses the plot in one of the fast passages. The chorus, as with the Vienna Bohm version, is poorly blended and sounds raw, they also have a lot of problems sticking with the conductor. In fact, I came to the conclusion that the conductor is the problem, as ensemble is often very rocky and the orchestra has some untypical fluffs. I suspect his odd tempi are not well signaled. As the sound quality is also congested, I see no reason to put yourself through this performance, despite the efforts of the excellent soloists.
Mike
It is a painful-ish recording to contemplate, but I do appreciate the review,
Mike!
Quote from: knight66 on February 16, 2015, 12:41:29 AM
Recently, in Lisbon, I picked up a bargain Missa for 3€. The names attracted me, Stich-Randall, Rössel-Majdan, Patzak and Frick with Vienna orchestral and choral forces. The conductor I had never heard of, Volkmar Andrae, on looking him up, I see he was Swiss and died in the 1960s. This is a live performance, probably a radio recording.
In the main the soloists do well, especially Stich-Randall, though Patzak loses the plot in one of the fast passages. The chorus, as with the Vienna Bohm version, is poorly blended and sounds raw, they also have a lot of problems sticking with the conductor. In fact, I came to the conclusion that the conductor is the problem, as ensemble is often very rocky and the orchestra has some untypical fluffs. I suspect his odd tempi are not well signaled. As the sound quality is also congested, I see no reason to put yourself through this performance, despite the efforts of the excellent soloists.
Mike
Those Portuguese, they believe in giving a recording every possible chance; probability is high I would have to go there to get it, so I won't. Thanks for the review, amigo. There are performances which even
I won't listen! :o
8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 19, 2015, 04:54:59 AM
There are performances which even I won't listen! :o
8)
Good thing I had just swallowed my tea . . . .
Quote from: karlhenning on February 19, 2015, 04:56:27 AM
Good thing I had just swallowed my tea . . . .
Hyperbole is good for the soul.... :D
8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 19, 2015, 04:54:59 AM
Thanks for the review, amigo. There are performances which even I won't listen! :o
8)
Nice one Gurn, the quest for the grail continues.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on February 19, 2015, 08:35:53 AM
Nice one Gurn, the quest for the grail continues.
Mike
Wow, and we've only just realized that there is a line not to be crossed! 8)
Quote from: karlhenning on February 19, 2015, 04:56:27 AM
Good thing I had just swallowed my tea . . . .
If only I could say the same about my coffee
Happy New Year, Paul! In keeping with the situation . . . .
There is mention above of looking for the grail, well, here comes a very strong contender. Suzuki
Bach Collegium Japan; Ann-Helen Moen; Roxana Constantinescu; James Gilchrist; Masaaki Suzuki] [Bis: BIS2321] Hybrid SACD, SACD
I am very surprised by the approach. Suzuki has been bathing in Bach for about two decades and I think this is his first Beethoven project, and one of the most tricky ones possible. The orchestra consists of original instruments and the choir is medium sized. I expected something like Herrewgehe's rather bloodless account, in which the choir don't break sweat or sound really engaged. This is a complete contrast to that approach. The fast movements are propulsive, muscular, volcanic and have weight not just fleetness. Clearly the text is being explored and highlighted throughout. I do like a more massive sound, but I need to get over myself on that issue. I was completely won over by the performance. The balance between the elements, choir, orchestra, singers is first rate.
In the preludium the violin is played without vibrato and I miss the warm bath of Karajan with Janowitz there, but this is not supposed to sound so luxuriously upholstered and it provides the calm centre within the maelstrom that surrounds it. Levive has an unrivaled closing movement, deeply disturbing. But in this piece no one performance will encompas all the many things I look and listen for. Suzuki has been very careful of the sound from the choir in what might be termed the stressed bits where singers are inclined to get the bit between their teeth and bray the sound to get it as loud as possible. Suzuki gets them to take the pressure off just a little and the result is all the more musical.
The soloists are very fine, especially the soprano who is a new name to me. She is fearless and displays a terrific technique, a feel for the text and has a beautiful voice. The tenor has a somewhat individual voice here. An observation not a criticism. He phrases well and again is alive to the words. The poor alto gets little to do that is noticed, but she does it well. The bass was fine, but did not etch the words on my brain.
This flies right to the top of my ever increasing collection of the piece, well above wither of Gardiner's discs. This performance has the added commitment that goes beyond sheer professionalism, the singers scale the peaks, the orchestra plays terrifically and the conductor provides a vision.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on March 31, 2018, 04:33:33 AMI expected something like Herrewgehe's rather bloodless account....
Which Herreweghe, Mike? Herreweghe I or II? I have Herreweghe I (on Harmonia Mundi) and am not a fan (despite his prowess in Bach), but I haven't heard II.
Thanks for the Suzuki write-up!
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on March 31, 2018, 08:49:37 PM
Which Herreweghe, Mike? Herreweghe I or II? I have Herreweghe I (on Harmonia Mundi) and am not a fan (despite his prowess in Bach), but I haven't heard II.
Thanks for the Suzuki write-up!
The number 1 version. I had forgotten about his second recording, I have no heard it.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on March 31, 2018, 04:33:33 AM
There is mention above of looking for the grail, well, here comes a very strong contender. Suzuki
Great review, Mike! Thanks :)
I'm still looking for that Holy Grail, on period instruments.
This recent issue by Brüggen's old orchestra has also gathered some positive reviews - anyone here heard it? :)
[asin]B01MYC7F1I[/asin]
Q
Hi, I don't know that one Rego. I keep telling myself at 15 or so versions that I don't need another, but occasionally I succumb. I read a review of the Suzuki which prompted me to listen to the opening on Spotify, I stayed for the full journey and had ordered it well before the finish.
Mike
Quote from: Que on March 31, 2018, 10:25:04 PM
Great review, Mike! Thanks :)
I'm still looking for that Holy Grail, on period instruments.
This recent issue by Brüggen's old orchestra has also gathered some positive reviews - anyone here heard it? :)
[asin]B01MYC7F1I[/asin]
Q
I bought it then heard it.
Quote from: Rod Corkin on June 25, 2018, 01:48:58 PM
I bought it then heard it.
Goodness gracious me,
Rod ??
I'm happy to hear you heard it - good job! :)
Q
Quote from: Que on June 25, 2018, 02:02:47 PM
Goodness gracious me, Rod ??
I'm happy to hear you heard it - good job! :)
Q
Hey, it's an accomplishment for some of us to get the discs out of the shrink wrap after a few years....
Quote from: knight66 on June 06, 2014, 11:32:06 PM
Beethoven Missa Solemnis: Donath, Soffell, Jerusalem, Sotin, Edinburgh Festival Chorus, Solti LPO live London Prom 1982 LPO/BBC issue
When this performance was notified for issue recently, I put a post onto the New Releases thread advertising it. I then sat back and eagerly awaited its arrival. i was in the performance and below I have copied from an ancient thread on conductors where I wrote the following.
What might have been....
Mike
How exciting to have been in the performance and how nice to hear about it!
Maybe a better copy will turn up somewhere...
Quote from: Que on June 25, 2018, 02:02:47 PM
Goodness gracious me, Rod ??
I'm happy to hear you heard it - good job! :)
Q
;)
https://open.spotify.com/album/5q7zGboJwO3QwWIMTp9PyE?si=RocmrCY0RX6EvPEQLRuN-w
Better than Suzuki's.
Quote from: Que on March 31, 2018, 10:25:04 PM
Great review, Mike! Thanks :)
I'm still looking for that Holy Grail, on period instruments.
This recent issue by Brüggen's old orchestra has also gathered some positive reviews - anyone here heard it? :)
[asin]B01MYC7F1I[/asin]
Q
I like it, although not as much as the second Gardiner one. I have not heard Suzuki for comparison.
I don't know if it's been mentioned here but I like the Hanover Band's (period instrument) recording a lot and it has remained on my playlist since I bought it many years ago. Not perfect but the sound is beautiful and the vocals excellent throughout...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61ATcNZPByL._SL500_AA400_.jpg)
Quote from: Rod Corkin on July 28, 2018, 12:36:23 AM
I don't know if it's been mentioned here but I like the Hanover Band's (period instrument) recording a lot and it has remained on my playlist since I bought it many years ago. Not perfect but the sound is beautiful and the vocals excellent throughout...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61ATcNZPByL._SL500_AA400_.jpg)
I also think that it is a fine version. It is filled with drama and energy and the choral singing in particular is wonderful. It is definitely worth investigating for those who may not be familiar with it.
Quote from: Daverz on October 17, 2021, 01:37:05 PM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71Ulwl7+WLL._SL1500_.jpg)
Based on a Hurwitzer recommendation:
https://www.youtube.com/v/1EeJ3OI7rhs
I tend to be in the traditional camp when it comes to these big symphonic choral works from older masters, so I will be curious to hear how Herbert Blomstedt's
Missa Solemnis is. By the looks of the performing forces, it should be a quality product. In a work where the soloists are integral, I am not familiar with any of them, however.
VS
Quote from: VonStupp on October 17, 2021, 01:58:22 PM
I tend to be in the traditional camp when it comes to these big symphonic choral works from older masters, so I will be curious to hear how Herbert Blomstedt's Missa Solemnis is. By the looks of the performing forces, it should be a quality product. In a work where the soloists are integral, I am not familiar with any of them, however.
Listening to the Klemperer studio recording now. What a monsterpiece!
Quote from: Daverz on October 17, 2021, 02:18:31 PM
Listening to the Klemperer studio recording now. What a monsterpiece!
Nice!
Last year I upgraded to the audio-only Blu-ray of Karajan ('66). With Janowitz/Ludwig/Wunderlich/Berry, it is my go-to for my ideal solo quartet in Beethoven's
Missa Solemnis.
VS