GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Great Recordings and Reviews => Topic started by: Mandryka on May 23, 2019, 05:15:37 AM

Title: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on May 23, 2019, 05:15:37 AM
(http://www.medieval-life-and-times.info/images/lute-player.jpg)


A place to record any thoughts and feelings about troubadours, trouvères and other people of that ilk.

I'll start this exciting journey off by noting one of the things which makes it most exciting. As far as I know, we know very little, if anything, about rhythm, tempo, pitch, dynamic contrasts, embellishment expressive or otherwise, accompaniment, instruments, vocalisation, the number of singers who sang at the same time, or the vowel sounds they made, or their voices, whether it was sung inside, outside, in courts, in taverns, in brothels, in homes, in market places, in churches, at state occasions, at public executions,  whether it was sung loudly or quietly, whether it was danced, and so on and so forth ad infinitum.

As you can see there is a tremendous opportunity here for musicians to use their imaginations and make something new out of something very old.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on May 23, 2019, 05:25:49 AM
And maybe to give us something to focus on, I'll kick it off my mentioning that I've been listening to this CD from Ensemble Celadon

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91b14rVKKJL._SX355_.jpg)

whether you'll like it or not depends partly on how you will react to Paulin Bündgen's voice, he has a rather distinctive countertenor which I find fascinating at best. It also depends on whether you're predisposed to see this music as gaudy, loud and jaunty -- i.e. your preconceptions about rhythm and about accompaniment and about voice. Put it like this: Ensemble Celadon is the extreme polar opposite of gaudy, loud and jaunty, almost to a fault. But for my part I prefer it to err in that direction that the other.

Above all they are words first people, which I think is not a bad way to be at all:

Quote
As musicians, our greatest concern was to reflect the emotions that we had experienced
when we fi rst read these songs and poems. Real men and women of fl esh and blood are
described in these songs
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Florestan on May 23, 2019, 05:52:59 AM
A place to record any thoughts and feelings about troubadours, trouvères and other people of that ilk.

I'll start this exciting journey off by noting one of the things which makes it most exciting. As far as I know, we know very little, if anything, about rhythm, tempo, pitch, dynamic contrasts, embellishment expressive or otherwise, accompaniment, instruments, vocalisation, the number of singers who sang at the same time, or the vowel sounds they made, or their voices, whether it was sung inside, outside, in courts, in taverns, in brothels, in homes, in market places, in churches, at state occasions, at public executions,  whether it was sung loudly or quietly, whether it was danced, and so on and so forth ad infinitum.

As you can see there is a tremendous opportunity here for musicians to use their imaginations and make something new out of something very old.

The corresponding Wikipedia article seems to be rather well-researched.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubadour (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubadour)

This is certainly outside my comfort zone, but a few years ago I listened to this:

(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/006/MI0001006419.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

and I remember liking it quite a lot. You made me want to revisit it.

EDIT: I have a few other Alla Francesca recordings which I also like.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on May 23, 2019, 06:33:29 AM
The corresponding Wikipedia article seems to be rather well-researched.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubadour (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubadour)

This is certainly outside my comfort zone, but a few years ago I listened to this:

(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/006/MI0001006419.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

and I remember liking it quite a lot. You made me want to revisit it.

EDIT: I have a few other Alla Francesca recordings which I also like.

It's outside my comfort zone too, despite having made a few forays into the world of troubadours before. Unlike  Minnesang which I feel very connected to emotionally, most of what I've heard of troubadour music really turns me off. I'm not sure why this should be, and I suspect that it's just a matter of finding singers who excite my imagination and CDs with a selection which appeals. Hence this little project to explore what's on record.

There are about 350 troubadour poems which have music associated with them, and for the couple of thousand poems without music, I know performers like to be creative about fining a suitable tune.  So there's a lot to chose from when you make a CD I guess.

Re Alla Francesca, I know I like much of what I've heard from Emmanuel Bonnardot. In fact, by coincidence, today I ordered this CD

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51GzIS%2BUOlL.jpg)
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Florestan on May 23, 2019, 06:51:22 AM
It's outside my comfort zone too, despite having made a few forays into the world of troubadours before. Unlike  Minnesang which I feel very connected to emotionally, most of what I've heard of troubadour music really turns me off. I'm not sure why this should be

Isn't Minnesaenger just the German equivalent of the Occitan trobador? Apart form that, what is the difference between them? Are there two different styles? Please, don't tell me that the dichotomy "German - serious & profound" / "Italian - entertaining and pleasing"  manifested itself that early.  :D
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on May 23, 2019, 06:59:37 AM
Isn't Minnesaenger just the German equivalent of the Occitan trobador? Apart form that, what is the difference between them? Are there two different styles? Please, don't tell me that the dichotomy "German - serious & profound" / "Italian - entertaining and pleasing"  manifested itself that early.  :D

I don't know, I don't have any sort of grip on the answers to those questions, or indeed on the style differences among the troubadours and troveres.

Given that so little is understood about the meaning of the music, maybe part of the problem is to do with stereotyping, we imagine the southern troubadour as being loud, passionate, even driven by sexual passion, the northern to be cooler, dispassionate and driven by divine passion. And this reflects itself in the sort of performances you get. North and South again.

Put it like this, no one would dream of singing the Minnesaenger like, for example Gérard Zuchetto and his band La Tròba present the troubadours (which to me sounds like music you might hear in a brothel in Istanbul), though I don't know if Zuchetto has any reason do do it like he does other than that's his whim.

In the same way, no-one would think of presenting Guiraut Riquier, for example, like Eberhard Kummer presents Wolkenstein.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Florestan on May 23, 2019, 07:12:37 AM
we imagine the southern troubadour as being loud, passionate, even driven by sexual passion, the northern to be cooler, dispassionate and driven by divine passion. And this reflects itself in the sort of performances you get. North and South again.

Who is this "we"? And why should "we" assume that?

Quote
Put it like this, no one would dream of singing the Minnesaenger like, for example Gérard Zuchetto and his band La Tròba present the troubadours (which to me sounds like music you might hear in a brothel in Istanbul), though I don't know if Zuchetto has any reason do do it like he does other than that's his whim.

Funny, nay extremely funny, you should say this --- I have just got this (well, not exactly this, I meant volume 2, the image has volume 4):

(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/51/00/3760049340051_600.jpg)

 :D :D :D

Now, I've never visited any Istanbul brothel yet so I'll take your word on it. But then again, you wrote:

Quote
As far as I know, we know very little, if anything, about rhythm, tempo, pitch, dynamic contrasts, embellishment expressive or otherwise, accompaniment, instruments, vocalisation, the number of singers who sang at the same time, or the vowel sounds they made, or their voices, whether it was sung inside, outside, in courts, in taverns, in brothels, in homes, in market places, in churches, at state occasions, at public executions,  whether it was sung loudly or quietly, whether it was danced, and so on and so forth ad infinitum.

As you can see there is a tremendous opportunity here for musicians to use their imaginations and make something new out of something very old.

In light of all of the above, I ask you: what's wrong with Zuccheto?
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on May 23, 2019, 08:00:14 AM
Who is this "we"? And why should "we" assume that?

Funny, nay extremely funny, you should say this --- I have just got this (well, not exactly this, I meant volume 2, the image has volume 4):

(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/51/00/3760049340051_600.jpg)

 :D :D :D

Now, I've never visited any Istanbul brothel yet so I'll take your word on it. But then again, you wrote:

In light of all of the above, I ask you: what's wrong with Zuccheto?

I know Zuchheto slightly, or rather, we’ve corresponded,  he’s been in the Troubadour business for years and he’s very serious about making meaningful music out of it. It’s just that it’s not my cup of tea.

Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Florestan on May 23, 2019, 08:09:13 AM
I know Zuchheto slightly, or rather, we’ve corresponded,  he’s been in the Troubadour business for years and he’s very serious about making meaningful music out of it. It’s just that it’s not my cup of tea.

Very interesting. Well, I'll listen to his second volume, and report here, asap.



Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on May 23, 2019, 08:33:56 AM
Very interesting. Well, I'll listen to his second volume, and report here, asap.

There’s an earlier thing he did which I like more in fact

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91MYtpnMw6L._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Florestan on May 23, 2019, 08:52:01 AM
Well, I listened to a random track of Zuccheto's 2nd volume and I can see where you're coming from --- the lady has a luscious, whore-ish tone for certainly. I liked it (honni soit qui mal y pense). And now that I think of it, is it not possible that those ladies were actually not your ordinary Istanbul brothel whores but courtesans well versed in the arts (such as the Venetians ones were centuries later)? Just asking.

And don't you dare tell me that it was a uniquely Southern phenomenon ---  remember Venusberg in Tannhaeuser? Germans were just as much prone to wenching as the Southerners, if not more --- it's only that they were much more hypocritical about it and much more adept at disguising it as "serious, profound & metaphysical" love.  ;D

Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on May 23, 2019, 12:41:02 PM
Why has your avatar suddenly got those bedroom eyes?

Re La Trobà, from memory the singers aren’t bad, quite characterful in fact, but they tend to sing all the strophes and it’s repetitive, I think it takes better singers to pull that off, especially because the words in an understandable form, indeed in any form, are inaccessible. I think it was a serious mistake that they didn’t publish the words, he did publish a book to go with the set, which I have, but it only contains a fraction of the texts they sing.

The instrumental part (and that’s all speculative I think) is too colourful for me, I get very bored with it very quickly. It may be all suffers from that routine feeling that you often get in complete surveys, but I bet there’s some good things in there. If anyone finds anything they think is special, please say.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on May 23, 2019, 01:03:05 PM
Who is this "we"?

Giuseppe Verdi. And whoever made that print I put in the opening post.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: schnittkease on May 23, 2019, 03:59:50 PM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91MYtpnMw6L._SS500_.jpg)

What a coincidence - I was just hearing this disc earlier today (as part of my rare forays into medieval music) and thoroughly enjoyed it.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Zeus on May 23, 2019, 06:47:46 PM
I have that Nuits Occitaine disc in my collection, and I like it.

Inspired by this thread, I'm giving this disc a spin:

Thibaut de Champagne - Le Chansonnier du Roi
Alla Francesca, Brigitte Lesne
Aeon



In general I like Troubadour / Trouvere music in part because it supports a pet theory that I have – that playing an instrument and singing along to it is a very ancient and natural form of music-making that probably hasn't changed much over the centuries.  For the simple reason that people haven't changed much over the centuries.  Although this simple style of music is not well represented in the written record, I would bet it was as popular back then and for the same reasons as a guy with a guitar singing in a bar or on the streets is popular in our times.  JMHO FWIW.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on May 23, 2019, 08:20:31 PM
I have that Nuits Occitaine disc in my collection, and I like it.

Inspired by this thread, I'm giving this disc a spin:

Thibaut de Champagne - Le Chansonnier du Roi
Alla Francesca, Brigitte Lesne
Aeon



In general I like Troubadour / Trouvere music in part because it supports a pet theory that I have – that playing an instrument and singing along to it is a very ancient and natural form of music-making that probably hasn't changed much over the centuries.  For the simple reason that people haven't changed much over the centuries.  Although this simple style of music is not well represented in the written record, I would bet it was as popular back then and for the same reasons as a guy with a guitar singing in a bar or on the streets is popular in our times.  JMHO FWIW.

As far as I understand it, the scores are silent about instruments, and the iconographic evidence is difficult to interpret because the instruments shown may have been meant symbolically and not literally. The medieval literature always represents troubadours singing a cappella or accompanying themselves with just one instrument - viel, lute or harp.

Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on May 25, 2019, 01:55:29 AM
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2004/Apr04/dante_82876601632.jpg)

Barbara Thornton can sing, and indeed Benjamin Bagby is not bad, but Thornton's the star for me. Many of the tracks are strophic songs, some of the music is sung a cappella,, some of tracks have fiddle music  sometimes jaunty and sometimes moody.  These artists pull it off despite the odds being so heavily against this sort of repetitive music in an incomprehensible language working.

They use instruments in three ways. One is just to provide pre/post/inter -ludes, one is just to provide a bit of colourful accompaniment for the voice. However sometimes it goes further than this and the fiddle and harp become almost the equal partners of the singers. I don't believe there is any good reason to think this is how the music was played back in the day, but it's very interesting in Arnault Daniel's Chanson do’ill mot son plan e prim nevertheless.

As with all Sequentia recordings of this period, you need a Krell amp and BBC studio monitors to capture the mystery of the sound. Not worth bothering if you don't have something in that league.

I don't have the booklet but I bet it's good, the Dante-Troubadour relationship is something I'd like to understand better, if anyone can let me have it as an upload I'd be thrilled.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on May 26, 2019, 04:32:01 AM
Trouvères are musicians who wrote in Occitan, or at least their dialect of it, but unlike Troubadours, they are from Northern France.  They were contemporary with Troubadours. Let's include them in this thread.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51KYHKGV25L.jpg)

This recording from Sequentia is in three parts: the excellent, the satisfactory and the not my cup of tea.

Actually, straight away, I'm going to make a correction. It's misleading to say it's by Sequentia. It's by a supplemented Sequentia, and supplemented by some amazing artists -- the instrumentalist Wendie Gillespie and the singer Jill Feldman. These people really make the best of the recording into something very special for me.

The excellent is the first part is music mostly by anonymous composers. The artists have decided to do two things which are astonishing. The first, is to create heterophonic interpretations with Feldman and Barbara Thornton. Their voices create the most wonderfully scrunchy harmonies. That's the way to sing monophony in C21, for an audience that doesn't understand the words and with singer who aren't as good at diction as Bob Dylan. Orlando Consort should follow suit!

And second they make little sets of music made up of sung  motets with intervals interpreted on fiddle, clausulae they call them, as they must be elaborations of some plain chant. This makes for real ear candy, very rich and interesting and substantial pieces of music.

Oh and there's a third thing Wendie Gillespie plays her fiddle in a way which is totally inspired, John Cage-esque sometimes (The Apartment House as interpreted by Irvine Arditti)

The middle part is music by Adam de la Hale, so far this music hasn't captured my imagination I'm afraid.

The third part is mostly pieces by a rather well recorded composer, Jehan de Lescurel. What they do is vigorous and a bit meat and potatoes in the sense that there's not much irony or mystery, but it's nonetheless not unpleasant  even if it doesn't efface the memory of Dominque Veillard or Paulin Bungden.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on May 26, 2019, 04:34:15 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51KVrf7yHQL._SY355_.jpg)

Just a quick rave, this is just amazing. Martin Best is one of those singers with a great sense of diction, the instrumental music is expressive and reticent, the whole CD is one of the best of its kind I know, a wonderful inward looking exercise in music making. 

In the past whenever I'd dipped into Martin Best recordings I was impressed. This is the first time I've explored a whole CD and I'm basically knocked out -- he is, to use the term of art, a top tier troubadour. TTT.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: San Antone on May 27, 2019, 07:41:54 AM
(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/51/00/3760049340051_600.jpg)

In light of all of the above, I ask you: what's wrong with Zuccheto?

Nothing is wrong with Zuccheto IMO; I wish I could find his five volume series of recordings but they have been OOP for years.  First, his is about the only complete, or near complete, set of all of the known songs with both texts and music available; next, his group of performers is excellent and his musicology, from what I can tell, is first rate.

I cannot comment on the earlier posts which have been dismissive of his recordings, to each his own, but speaking for myself, Zuccheto's troubadour recordings are wonderful.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on May 30, 2019, 08:08:41 AM
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcSvkwfwtcmJMfYx-2siviSAkZ0mDNlhRBjdRLTiq2RG3LrKP5Yf)


Here comes a rave.


At last. A trouvères recording which I’m as enthusiastic about as I was about the Martin Best Ensemble Amour de lonh troubadours CD, and for similar reasons: restrained use of instrumental colour, diction of singers makes it sound interesting, introspective, heartfelt, expressive. Who are the singers? Can anyone help? I like many of their voices. I can’t find anything about this recording, which I’m listening to on Qobuz.

Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Zeus on May 30, 2019, 12:46:51 PM
A couple things popped up on Google:

Active from: 1980
Genre: Classical
Members: Dominique Thibaudat
Albums: Missa de angelis, Chants de l'Amour divin, MORE
Record labels: Cyprès, Bayard Musique, Studio SM, MONTHABOR Music, Solstice
Songs...


Also something on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/Ensemble-Venance-Fortunat/e/B003RVRMQO/works/ref=ep_artist_tab_w

Includes a couple informative user reviews.  Note one disc is listed for almost $2,000 bucks!
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on May 30, 2019, 07:56:51 PM
I found more details about the Trouvères CD here

http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/cds/led13045.htm

And their other recordings here

http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/cds/led13036.htm

The high price is just due to the obsolescence of the CD format, the recording, but unfortunately not the CD liner notes, are all streamable ubiquitously.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Que on May 31, 2019, 01:59:19 AM
I wouldn't call myself a fan of the genre.
But recently I took a chance with a bargain, and was utterly charmed!  :)
Artistically very impressive...


Q

Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on May 31, 2019, 07:12:32 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81e4iDL6%2BDL._SY450_.jpg)

But Diabolus in Musica, in my opinion, are somewhat put in the shade in the Gautier de Coincy department by Alla Francesca, who are even more rapt, and even more communicative, whose singers are more seductive apart from Jean Paul Rigaud on the Guerber CD. They have stars, and it shows. Pierre Hamon, Emmanuel Bonnardot, Catherine Sergent and Brigitte Lesne. Alla Francesca use a wider range of instruments, including a hurdy gurdy, they're all used tastefully and mostly one at a time in the songs, as it probably should be to be correct about it, they may even be accompanying themselves.

Re singing style, Gautier was explicit about what he wanted, writing

Quote
We priests, we singers, we clerics and we monks must sing night and day to Our Lady who, soujourning in Paradise, takes to her all those that serve her well. But I see a great many who are very idle! They continually bray, shout and stretch their voices, but they do not tune their lyre at all: their singing is lamentable! Their mouths lie to God and are discordant if to him their hearts are not in concordance. God and his mother derive no more pleasure from such mouths which sing in descant, sing organum and in fifths than they would from the laughter of a donkey. I know of quite a few whose voices sooner or later go wrong if they are not thoroughly steeped in strong wine! They only manage to sing if they are warmed up with wine. But when the wine has done its work of healing, they then can sing organum, have a high old time and move the entire monastery. I know of others whose voices are weak and broken, but if they are fortified with good wine, they can sing out as loudly as the rest of them. So they bray and bawl and run along to pray to Saint Twist, son of the bent woman, he who makes you walk crooked. God does not listen to a voice if there is no devotion in the heart. From the heart must flow forth the spring which causes the voice to be pleasing to God. A loud and clear voice is not necessarily pleasing either to God or his mother. Somebody singing quietly and without great skill may well be more readily listened to by God than somebody else who sings organum loudly and sings a fifth above the rest. God gives not a fig for beautified clear and pleasant voices, for the sound of the harp or the viol, the psalterion or the organ if a devotional heart is not involved. God listens to the intention, not to the voice or the instrument.

Well there you go, I agree with my mate Gautier here.

Recommended CD this one, by me.

Oh, Alla Francesca is superbly well recorded to boot.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on June 02, 2019, 01:35:32 AM
his musicology, from what I can tell, is first rate.





Listening to Bernart Ventadorn’s ab joie mou Lo vers e-l commens, it’s in vol 1 of La Trobà. A lot of vibrato, and a wide range of instruments used even while she’s singing. It would be nice to know if he’s got a musicologist in tow,  but he is silent about that sort of thing. I wonder if Zuccheto is one of those dastardly  music directors who

intentionally obfuscate the interpretive choices by willfully ignoring established musicology and performance practice in a self-absorbed vision of their own importance.

The singer has a characterful voice, I like her voice.

There’s a very different take on the same song by my favourite, Martin Best, and Thomas Binkley did it in the style of David Gilmore and Roger Waters, well worth catching as a historical curiosity. On their Martin Codax recording.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on June 30, 2019, 02:21:50 AM
Is this the right place? I don’t know, but I can see that the composer sometimes rightly or wrongly figures in collections of Trouvères. Que posted one above.

No one really knows who he was, Gaultier d’Épinal, but that’s par for the course really. Academics are unclear about whether he was nobleman of Épinal or of Metz, caught up in disputes between  kings and popes. Even I, who can read modern French but has never studied early French, can see that he is one hell of a poet - look at this:

Quote
Me plaing seur touz d’une gent malparliere,
Qui souvent ont moi et autres traï
si com cil qui ne puet merci trouver et qui en soi n’a maiz point de fiance. Si cum Equo, qui sert de recorder
Ce qu’autres dit et par sa seurquidance
Ne la deigna Narcisus reguarder, Ainz secha toute d’ardure,
Fors la vois qui encor dure,
Einsi perdrai tout fors merci crïer
Et secherai de duel et de pesance. Maiz Amours, qui Narcisus fist mirer, Quant pour Equo en velt prendre venjance,
S’einsi vousist pour li une autre amer, Tel qui de li n’eüst cure,
Mis l’eust a sa droiture
Le grant orgueill qui le fait relever
Et en venist pluz tost a repentance

This CD has about 10 pieces by him, various genres and styles, and I think it’s fabulous.

(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/167/MI0001167307.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

And in terms of music, what to say? Melancholy, a serious melancholy, which is really attractive to me. And enough complexity in the melodies and the rhythms to stop the music wearing out its welcome. The leader of Ensemble Syntagma, Emilia Danilevski, has worked with, amongst others, Gérard le Vot to create the music. She says something which, the more experience I have with this sort of music, the more I think it’s true, so Ensemble Syntagma is a group I shall be investigating

Quote
“I think that unfortunately medieval music is in need of a certain
rehabilitation: often its profundity is hidden behind its exoticism.”
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: San Antone on June 30, 2019, 04:31:55 AM
Is this the right place? I don’t know, but I can see that the composer sometimes rightly or wrongly figures in collections of Trouvères. Que posted one above.

No one really knows who he was, Gaultier d’Épinal, but that’s par for the course really. Academics are unclear about whether he was nobleman of Épinal or of Metz, caught up in disputes between  kings and popes. Even I, who can read modern French but has never studied early French, can see that he is one hell of a poet - look at this:

This CD has about 10 pieces by him, various genres and styles, and I think it’s fabulous.

(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/167/MI0001167307.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

And in terms of music, what to say? Melancholy, a serious melancholy, which is really attractive to me. And enough complexity in the melodies and the rhythms to stop the music wearing out its welcome. The leader of Ensemble Syntagma, Emilia Danilevski, has worked with, amongst others, Gérard le Vot to create the music. She says something which, the more experience I have with this sort of music, the more I think it’s true, so Ensemble Syntagma is a group I shall be investigating

The leader of Ensemble Syntagma is Alexandre Danilevski - is Emilia his wife?

Interesting interview with him HERE (http://www.tokafi.com/15questions/15-questions-to-alexander-danilevski/).
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on June 30, 2019, 07:38:27 AM
The leader of Ensemble Syntagma is Alexandre Danilevski - is Emilia his wife?

Interesting interview with him HERE (http://www.tokafi.com/15questions/15-questions-to-alexander-danilevski/).

Thanks for that interview, lots to think about there.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on July 26, 2019, 04:19:08 AM
(https://i24.servimg.com/u/f24/12/92/42/38/8porta80.jpg)

The singer here, Laia Frogolé, brings a gentle, sensual vulnerability to these songs by Bernart de Ventadorn. I like her style very much. The ensemble, Mos Azimans, include the usual flute, drums, organetto and bowed instrument, and what they do is not offensive - but it’s the singing which makes the recording memorable for me.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on July 28, 2019, 02:33:50 AM
I just want to make a post about Jean Paul Rigaud, in my opinion he’s the best I’ve heard among practising singers at making troubadour material work, he has the skills of declamation necessary to make the music sound meaningful and not vacuous, he has the taste to not  make it over exotic without making it sound baroque or renaissance or trippy or celtic or folksy or like a Barcelona brothel. His instrumental lines are genuinely interesting and intelligent and stimulating to hear. He’s a baritonal tenor.

He used to work a lot with Diabolus in Musica, who have several recordings dedicated to troubadour material, but he really comes into his stride when he’s away from them, with his own group called Ensembe Beatus. I have two of their recordings, both of which I like very much. The second especially, which is  another exploration of what is a common theme which I think even impacts music of the renaissance: the porosity of  the sacred and the profane.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81cI87WogKL._SX355_.jpg).    (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71wSv0YVYWL._SX355_.jpg)

And earlier this year they released a third, which I’ve just ordered

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71PNC3wvcKL._SX355_.jpg)
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on August 08, 2019, 01:40:23 AM
(https://img.discogs.com/KjZnsswnv696IT0iwiZ4xoCBSDo=/fit-in/400x396/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-5129867-1385310330-4633.jpeg.jpg)

This is probably not the right place to note this one, though there’s a fair amount of Troubaadour material on it. What a joy to discover this solo recording from Evelyn Tubb - with such intelligent and refined  instrumentation. 
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on August 24, 2019, 07:10:22 AM
(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_250/MI0001/017/MI0001017209.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

This is an extremely good example of something that's almost impossibly difficult: Paul Hillier presents a handful of songs by Martin Codax solo, no instruments. It makes me think I should revisit his other troubadour CDs where he does the same type of thing.

I saw Raitis Grigalis do the same with a Minnesang piece in an Ensemble Leones concert, and he pulled it off because it was dramatic and demonstrative -- it was fun but really we were browbeaten into listening. These Martin Codax renditions are much more internal and intimate.

Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on February 05, 2020, 11:09:36 AM
(https://img.discogs.com/hbzbHVvFVV-Y7WKV0cp46mTvCXg=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-7038083-1432581856-4789.jpeg.jpg)     (https://img.discogs.com/zYknMc_-AXdA3XN5CcS5hCGqUqk=/fit-in/600x470/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-7038083-1432581864-3933.jpeg.jpg)


Very nice little essay on some of the interpretation issues surrounding this material in this recording from Ensemble Super Librum. I wish they had said more, but we have whant we have. The CD has become a great favourite of mine, for the austerity and imaginativeness of the instruments -- recorder, drum, organ --  and the quality of the voices.

Quote
The troubadours were first and foremost concerned with language, with langue d'oc. Although they dispose of a fairly adequate system of musical notation, the melodies to which their texts are sung are written down in a very sketchy manner. Only the mode or tone colouring can be inferred. Rhythmical and instrumental indications are absent. The melodies that have come down to us are related to the Gregorian and the Moorish melodic traditions.

The performers are professional musicians: the jongleurs. Usually, they sing what the troubadours composed. As regards the instrumental accompaniment of the songs, we can only guess. A good present-day example of this tradition we still find in the composed music of the Arab, the Eastern, and---nearer home---the Celtic world. This music, handed down orally, has its roots in a culture that is conservative in the positive sense of the word. We assume that to this essentially monodic music the jongleurs improvised an accompaniment (which would therefore differ from performance to performance) in order to stress the mode. So the singing is supported by improvised preludes, interludes and postludes. Because oral tradition formed the basis for the music of the jongleurs, no instrumental music from this period has been handed down in writing. Yet we do know that the nota (melody) of long verse forms like the estampie and the lai was performed on instruments. Thus, on the melody of 'Be m'an perdut' I wrote a new estampie: the 'Estampida perduda' 71 in the style of a manuscript of troubadour songs and estampies dated about one hundred years later (Paris BN fr. 844, 'Le manuscript du Roy'), the oldest surviving instrumental dance music. The troubadour and jongleur Raembaut de Vaqueiras (ca. 1160 - after 1207) did it the other way round: he wrote his 'Kalenda maya' (song for the first of May) to the tune of an estampie he had heard performed by two Parisian jongleurs.

In the same way, the Provencal 'Lai non par'  formed the point of departure for our instrumental lai. In performing it, the material is treated very freely (improvisation). The use of the tbilet (double vase drum) stresses the fact that Moorish influence on Mediterranean music was very strong at the time.

Although apparently opposed to each other, the interchange between church music and worldly music was very important. We have attempted to express the interchange between two groups of musicians, the clerics and the jongleurs, in the improvisation entitled 'Virgo' In this so-called 'Phrygian improvisation' centred around the minor second f-e, we hear a rhythmically free melody (based on the Indian raga 'Bhilaskhani todi') developing into a rhythmical melody. This increasing rhythmicity takes shape in the melisma 'Virgo" the basis of the earliest rhythmical polyphony: the clausulae. This music is particularly interesting: it may well have been instrumental music, improvised by jongleurs (it has generally come down to us without texts). In fact, it was the earliest form of rhythmical polyphony in our Western music.

It is certain that music from the monasteries had its repercussions on the creative process of the troubadours. Of noble birth, they depended on these monasteries for their education. Once this education was finished, the troubadours remained winter guests in the monasteries, where they wrote their poems and composed their songs. The improvisation 'Virgo' is an attempt to reconstruct music as it was perhaps played by the jongleurs in church and monastery.

In my experience Ensemble Super Librum are often worth hearing, they're one of the ensembles I'd love to see in concert.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: deprofundis on February 25, 2020, 04:15:57 PM
Dear honrable Mandryka, I have an album by Jauffre Rudel all do you're look more interesting, and what Le Roman de Fauvel and Le roman de la rose do they fit in troubadours, Carles Magraner troubador album whit majestic Cappella Del Minister, is very great  for this mather.There is many Troubadour worth investigating , nice tread sir.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on February 25, 2020, 10:43:25 PM
Dear honrable Mandryka, I have an album by Jauffre Rudel all do you're look more interesting, and what Le Roman de Fauvel and Le roman de la rose do they fit in troubadours, Carles Magraner troubador album whit majestic Cappella Del Minister, is very great  for this mather.There is many Troubadour worth investigating , nice tread sir.

Magraner is always good. For music from Roman de la Rose don’t forget Per Sonat

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk4NzM2Mi4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX19LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NDN9)


Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: aligreto on March 27, 2020, 04:36:02 AM
Dear honrable Mandryka, I have an album by Jauffre Rudel all do you're look more interesting, and what Le Roman de Fauvel and Le roman de la rose do they fit in troubadours, Carles Magraner troubador album whit majestic Cappella Del Minister, is very great  for this mather.There is many Troubadour worth investigating , nice tread sir.

Cross post from the Listening Thread:


Music of the Troubadours -


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/615df8CPkhL._AC_.jpg)


Jaufre Rudel: Lanquan li jorn [Ensemble Unicorn/Oni Wytars]

This is quite an extensive piece at 17:31 minutes long. It tells a tragic tale and the music is suitably atmospheric and evocative and forlorn and intense in tone and mood. The female vocal is powerful, haunting, passionate and plaintive. The flavour of the music is heavily Turkish/Arabic. This is an excellent performance from all concerned.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: San Antone on March 27, 2020, 06:11:19 AM
Cross post from the Listening Thread:


Music of the Troubadours -


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/615df8CPkhL._AC_.jpg)


Jaufre Rudel: Lanquan li jorn [Ensemble Unicorn/Oni Wytars]

This is quite an extensive piece at 17:31 minutes long. It tells a tragic tale and the music is suitably atmospheric and evocative and forlorn and intense in tone and mood. The female vocal is powerful, haunting, passionate and plaintive. The flavour of the music is heavily Turkish/Arabic. This is an excellent performance from all concerned.

Love this music, and this recording is a good one.  That piece is a great example of how sophisticated this music can be.  8)
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: aligreto on March 27, 2020, 06:57:13 AM
Love this music, and this recording is a good one.  That piece is a great example of how sophisticated this music can be.  8)

Cheers. Yes it is a wonderful CD and I agree with your comment on the quality of the music.
This is a wonderful thread and I wish that I could have contributed more to it but my exposure to and knowledge of the genre is rather limited I am afraid.
There is a lot to explore here so perhaps I can do so some time in the future.  :)
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on March 27, 2020, 07:20:36 AM
That song, Lanquan li jorn, figures on what is one of my favourite recordings of anything This

(https://i.scdn.co/image/ab67616d0000b273f274dbc35e1a90577f1cd34c)

The poet and philosopher Lanza del Vasto, who was a pupil of Ghandi, founded a non violent community in Arche  in 1948. The Chanterelle was formed from their members. The singer's style ( who is she?) is simple, natural and to my ears, archaic.

Other ones I remember liking are from Rene Zosso and maybe Dominique Vellard.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: aligreto on March 27, 2020, 08:22:20 AM
How very interesting. Thank you.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on March 27, 2020, 09:16:26 AM

That song, Lanquan li jorn, . . .  ones I remember liking are . . . maybe Dominique Vellard.


I was wrong to say maybe really, his voice is on top form. The instrumental component is a bit rich for my tastes, but only a bit and I can see that it’s just my quirk. The whole album is, when you’re in the mood, and I was this afternoon, pretty entertaining

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71ZuRssxKCL._SS500_.jpg)

Vellard’s the star, when he sings I mean, he’s on a handful of songs, maybe more than a handful.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Kaga2 on March 27, 2020, 09:54:25 AM
Cross post from the Listening Thread:


Music of the Troubadours -


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/615df8CPkhL._AC_.jpg)


Jaufre Rudel: Lanquan li jorn [Ensemble Unicorn/Oni Wytars]

This is quite an extensive piece at 17:31 minutes long. It tells a tragic tale and the music is suitably atmospheric and evocative and forlorn and intense in tone and mood. The female vocal is powerful, haunting, passionate and plaintive. The flavour of the music is heavily Turkish/Arabic. This is an excellent performance from all concerned.

I have that somewhere, but have not listened to it in several years. I need to remedy that. I have numerous recordings by the group and like them all.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: aligreto on March 28, 2020, 06:54:49 AM
I have that somewhere, but have not listened to it in several years. I need to remedy that. I have numerous recordings by the group and like them all.

So have I and am doing exactly that these last few days. Absolutely wonderful stuff  8)
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: vers la flamme on October 04, 2020, 04:13:07 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/XqdKrVmN/Screen-Shot-2020-09-24-at-9-18-54-PM.png)

Anyone listen to this disc? I got it by a fluke and it's my first and only exposure to this troubadour/trouvère music. Sounds amazing to my ears! I need to hear more, even though it's not likely I'll ever be frequently in the mood for monophonic medieval songs.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on October 09, 2020, 11:32:54 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/XqdKrVmN/Screen-Shot-2020-09-24-at-9-18-54-PM.png)

Anyone listen to this disc? I got it by a fluke and it's my first and only exposure to this troubadour/trouvère music. Sounds amazing to my ears! I need to hear more, even though it's not likely I'll ever be frequently in the mood for monophonic medieval songs.

Love the hurdy-gurdy. That whole series is interesting, there are five volumes each one very different.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: MusicTurner on October 09, 2020, 11:49:13 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/XqdKrVmN/Screen-Shot-2020-09-24-at-9-18-54-PM.png)

Anyone listen to this disc? I got it by a fluke and it's my first and only exposure to this troubadour/trouvère music. Sounds amazing to my ears! I need to hear more, even though it's not likely I'll ever be frequently in the mood for monophonic medieval songs.

Lovely cover, but from Naumburg in Germany.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: vers la flamme on October 09, 2020, 04:12:57 PM
Love the hurdy-gurdy. That whole series is interesting, there are five volumes each one very different.

I got Vol. 3 as part of the same fluke but I have not listened to it yet, it's later music, Binchois and contemporaries. Excited to explore that one as well.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Diderica on October 23, 2020, 05:51:46 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81e4iDL6%2BDL._SY450_.jpg)

But Diabolus in Musica, in my opinion, are somewhat put in the shade in the Gautier de Coincy department by Alla Francesca, who are even more rapt, and even more communicative, whose singers are more seductive apart from Jean Paul Rigaud on the Guerber CD. They have stars, and it shows. Pierre Hamon, Emmanuel Bonnardot, Catherine Sergent and Brigitte Lesne. Alla Francesca use a wider range of instruments, including a hurdy gurdy, they're all used tastefully and mostly one at a time in the songs, as it probably should be to be correct about it, they may even be accompanying themselves.

Re singing style, Gautier was explicit about what he wanted, writing

Well there you go, I agree with my mate Gautier here.

Recommended CD this one, by me.

Oh, Alla Francesca is superbly well recorded to boot.
Hello!
 I'm looking for a booklet of the CD performed by ensemble Alla francesca: "Gautier De Coincy: Les Miracles De Nostre-Dame", Virgin 1995. I need a detailed information concerning one quotation possibly by Gautier: "We priests, we singers, we clerics and we monks must sing night and day to Our Lady who, soujourning in Paradise, takes to her all those that serve her well. But I see a great many who are very idle! They continually bray, shout and stretch their voices, but they do not tune their lyre at all: their singing is lamentable! Their mouths lie to God and are discordant if to him their hearts are not in concordance. God and his mother derive no more pleasure from such mouths which sing in descant, sing organum and in fifths than they would from the laughter of a donkey.

I know of quite a few whose voices sooner or later go wrong if they are not thoroughly steeped in strong wine! They only manage to sing if they are warmed up with wine. But when the wine has done its work of healing, they then can sing organum, have a high old time and move the entire monastery..."
Does anyone have an original french quotation?
Many thanks in advance
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on November 01, 2020, 08:51:44 AM
Hello!
 I'm looking for a booklet of the CD performed by ensemble Alla francesca: "Gautier De Coincy: Les Miracles De Nostre-Dame", Virgin 1995. I need a detailed information concerning one quotation possibly by Gautier: "We priests, we singers, we clerics and we monks must sing night and day to Our Lady who, soujourning in Paradise, takes to her all those that serve her well. But I see a great many who are very idle! They continually bray, shout and stretch their voices, but they do not tune their lyre at all: their singing is lamentable! Their mouths lie to God and are discordant if to him their hearts are not in concordance. God and his mother derive no more pleasure from such mouths which sing in descant, sing organum and in fifths than they would from the laughter of a donkey.

I know of quite a few whose voices sooner or later go wrong if they are not thoroughly steeped in strong wine! They only manage to sing if they are warmed up with wine. But when the wine has done its work of healing, they then can sing organum, have a high old time and move the entire monastery..."
Does anyone have an original french quotation?
Many thanks in advance

Better late than never

(https://i.ibb.co/TWtTJKp/Capture0.png)     (https://i.ibb.co/Wz4SfwC/Capture.png)

I would be wary of the attribution if I were you. The essay is a bit of journalism and I can't find any references to the quotation anywhere.



Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: deprofundis on November 01, 2020, 10:18:54 PM
Mandryka I like pretty much Jaufre Rudel, he is quite inspiring and king of Occitania(a kingdom that use to be huge  size of france a bit of barcelona spain and a tiny bit of italy my oldest ancestor is Jaufre Rudel From Blaye(blaia) so i have noble blood of occitan king in me , I mean how fascinating he is connect to me, direct... woaw groovy. I am one of his descandent, the crazy and cool went you think of it my familly were pre  Germanic invader Francia, I don,t know much about Angoulême and the Angoulêois ils ont l'air sympha des look nice and produce quality red wine correct me if I am wrong? who from there on GmG beside me please?
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Diderica on November 02, 2020, 03:08:36 PM
Better late than never

I would be wary of the attribution if I were you. The essay is a bit of journalism and I can't find any references to the quotation anywhere.

Thank you very much for your help! What a pity that there is no quotation in French! I'll try to find more information about Gautier de Coincy. The text seems to be old, but I would not attribute it to Gautier without proof.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on November 03, 2020, 12:21:50 PM
Thank you very much for your help! What a pity that there is no quotation in French! I'll try to find more information about Gautier de Coincy. The text seems to be old, but I would not attribute it to Gautier without proof.

If you're a member of an academic library, try to find "Gautier de Coincy et la pédagogie muicale," by Claude-Henry Joubert, in Médiévales n°2, 1982. Gautier de Coinci: le texte du miracle. pp. 100-103.(Presses Universitaires de Vincennes)
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on November 03, 2020, 12:40:57 PM
Mandryka I like pretty much Jaufre Rudel, he is quite inspiring and king of Occitania(a kingdom that use to be huge  size of france a bit of barcelona spain and a tiny bit of italy my oldest ancestor is Jaufre Rudel From Blaye(blaia) so i have noble blood of occitan king in me , I mean how fascinating he is connect to me, direct... woaw groovy. I am one of his descandent, the crazy and cool went you think of it my familly were pre  Germanic invader Francia, I don,t know much about Angoulême and the Angoulêois ils ont l'air sympha des look nice and produce quality red wine correct me if I am wrong? who from there on GmG beside me please?

"Jauffre Rudel de Blaye fut un homme tres noble, prince de Blaye. Il s'enamoura de la comtesse de Tripoli, sans la voir, pour le grand bien et pour la grande courtoisie qu'il entendit dire d'elle" (Sorry, no accents! It's a quote, presumably medieval, from a book on Troubadours by Gerard Zuchetto.)

This is rather good I think

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZH12ceVkL._AC_SY450_.jpg)

The only thing I know about Angoulême  is that there's a huge festival of BDs there every year, or at least there was before COVID. I think it's a centre of horology.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on November 10, 2020, 01:15:53 AM

(https://www.etcetera-records.com/media/filer_public_thumbnails/filer_public/d9/29/d92923f4-ef7a-4e4f-a150-38bd3c65573e/ktc_1651.jpg__1080x980_q85_crop_subsampling-2.jpg)

Nearly all  these long songs have been recorded before, some of them by very fine singers like Paul Hillier and some of them much more dramatically by ensembles like Studio der Frühen Musik. Paloma Guttiérez del Arroyo does not have a voice with a greatly distinctive character, neither does she have the power of declamation like an opera singer or a story teller. Her voice is pure and her approach is simple and relatively unadorned. What she does is beautiful and perfect. Manuel Vilas provides a suitably  sober harp accompaniment, also perfect. This is the sort of recording which may underwhelm at first, but which, little by little, reveals itself over time to be more and more rewarding - more rewarding than the flashier alternatives in my case at least. A revelation in fact because it shows that this sort of music can be enhanced by a restrained approach.


No booklet online and hence no texts of the songs, and that’s a downer.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on November 12, 2020, 10:28:35 PM
(https://i24.servimg.com/u/f24/12/92/42/38/8porta80.jpg)

The singer here, Laia Frogolé, brings a gentle, sensual vulnerability to these songs by Bernart de Ventadorn. I like her style very much. The ensemble, Mos Azimans, include the usual flute, drums, organetto and bowed instrument, and what they do is not offensive - but it’s the singing which makes the recording memorable for me.

And going back to this interesting recording, I feel differently than I did last year. The voice is distinctive and expressive, sure. What I said in 2019 about gentle sensitive vulnerability is spot on. But what has struck me as very special is the portative organ playing by Christina Alice Raurich. She’s an academic musician, and as far as I know this is the only chance to hear her on record: shame that because she’s really good! Fortunately she’s ubiquitous in this Ventadorn CD. Her website reveals her personality I think

http://cristinaraurich.cat/

Ventadorn is a great composer!
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on November 13, 2020, 02:09:50 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91Hh6W3oM9L._SX522_.jpg)

More Ventadorn, this is all sung by Martin Best, a no nonsense plain singing tenor with quite a steely timbre. And his approach is dramatic and declamatory, and that gives the music a totally different vibe from the two Ventadorn recordings from women above. Many of these songs have not been recorded elsewhere, and IMO they do not represent Ventadorn’s most interesting work.  We’re in storytelling mode for a lot of the music. Tasteful accompaniment on various sorts of plucked things.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: deprofundis on November 13, 2020, 08:49:49 PM
And maybe to give us something to focus on, I'll kick it off my mentioning that I've been listening to this CD from Ensemble Celadon

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91b14rVKKJL._SX355_.jpg)

whether you'll like it or not depends partly on how you will react to Paulin Bündgen's voice, he has a rather distinctive countertenor which I find fascinating at best. It also depends on whether you're predisposed to see this music as gaudy, loud and jaunty -- i.e. your preconceptions about rhythm and about accompaniment and about voice. Put it like this: Ensemble Celadon is the extreme polar opposite of gaudy, loud and jaunty, almost to a fault. But for my part I prefer it to err in that direction that the other.

Above all they are words first people, which I think is not a bad way to be at all:
superbe trouvaille cher Mandryka je suis un Occitan je devore  se disque a pleinne dents , j'adore, thank you Mandryka for this suprise.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on November 15, 2020, 09:41:26 PM
More Ventadorn

(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-_i5CcsgISus%2FT3gCNpAHxkI%2FAAAAAAAAExk%2FfwN2ipkRScs%2Fs400%2Fscan00.jpg&f=1)

Paul Hillier sings three songs, longish, he’s in exceptionally good voice, a nice balance between intimacy and declamation. He accompanies himself with a harp, simply and tastefully. There’s also a jolly little instrumental interlude with harp and organ.

(https://img.discogs.com/ZYQ5RF-EG4FU7zIav9JTUFdqNtc=/fit-in/600x514/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-2805798-1341493041-5122.jpeg.jpg)

Hard for me to know what to make of the two Ventadorn songs on this CD by Gerard Zuccheto and his mates. The female singer’s voice is extremely characterful and her accompaniment is bold and imaginative. The male singers use some extraordinary declamation techniques. It would be interesting to know whether Zuchetto’s approach is informed or whether he’s just having fun. There are things happening in these performances which, as far as I know, are totally unique.

Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on November 16, 2020, 05:45:28 AM
superbe trouvaille cher Mandryka je suis un Occitan je devore  se disque a pleinne dents , j'adore, thank you Mandryka for this suprise.

Je vous en prie.

I’m less and less keen on that one, I don’t like the drums, especially when they tap the pulse out. And I’m not crazy about the timbre of Büngden’s voice.

But since you like it, I think you should give this one a go too.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81VfQQiiyKL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on November 16, 2020, 06:16:54 AM
I need to hear more, even though it's not likely I'll ever be frequently in the mood for monophonic medieval songs.

There’s no one who can make that sort of music come off the page better than Rogers Covey-Crump (and what a marvellous name he has!)
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on December 04, 2020, 06:12:20 AM
(https://img.discogs.com/07NoTqboAPRPUhOyPkldn4vY2pk=/fit-in/600x590/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-6565524-1598880939-4967.jpeg.jpg)

Characterful voices from both Andrea von Ramm and Benjamin Bagby on this CD,  tasteful accompaniment -- often reticent. These singers can make the words sound meaningful.

The booklet contains this note on interpretation

Quote
Concerning the Interpretation:
More and more it is the tendency in the performance oF medieval music to rely somewhat on
instinct where the facts run out. This ought not to
be a license for unsubstantiated music-makinq (although I feel it often is), but ought be viewed as a
necessary challenge. One unfortunate result of this
however, is that it-is difficult in the extreme to keep
the listener informed of the substance of the musiccal position, with the result thar much is misunderstood. What may seem to the listener a minor
sixth chord mav be in reality the result of the drone
strings on that parricular'instrument, and what
may seem a rambling improvisation may really be a
detailed expansion of tones according to a clear
discipline.
So I-feel it might be of interest to the listener to
have pointed
-out
here that the opening of the
Planius Cipne is a Lydian scale transposed) encompassing the tones-of the melody to come, and
followed by suggestions of subjects such as a descending fourth as a swan symbol (from the melody
at the word cygne) that the accompaniment derives
from musical symbols contained in the melody,
such as the weaving through three or four notes in
the lament beginning with line 5, leading to the
resolution ar'dulcimodo cantitans' and the swan's
return to land.

Such an approach is not employed in the four
planctus from Las Huelgas, where symbolism takes
a back seat to basic musical materials of mode and
imitation, drone and structure.

Still another approach is employed in the naive
Bordesholmer planctus, where it is the runnng of
the instrument, drones plusa single melody string,
tnat dictates the tone combinations.

And finally the two troubadour songs are treated as
I would any straight-forward troubadour songs,
connecting the character of the instrument with
rhe expression of the text, by drawing attention to
specific tones and  intervals that I feeT are of particular importance in the song.

I like this CD very much.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: deprofundis on December 04, 2020, 11:59:10 PM
Mandryka if your looking for exceptional Trouvere albums* may I guide you to the following, please:

Monsieur est servis, cher monsieur ecouté c'est truc la

Outremer: beyond the sea ensemble trouvere ministrel medieval
Pour le facteur exotique de l'epoque?


Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on December 05, 2020, 02:19:04 PM
Mandryka if your looking for exceptional Trouvere albums* may I guide you to the following, please:

Monsieur est servis, cher monsieur ecouté c'est truc la

Outremer: beyond the sea ensemble trouvere ministrel medieval
Pour le facteur exotique de l'epoque?

Ah yes, I found it on spotify, it's very entertaining.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: deprofundis on December 05, 2020, 03:01:31 PM
Ah yes, I found it on spotify, it's very entertaining.

Mandryka ravis de vous entendre, sir
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on May 08, 2021, 12:58:27 AM
(https://www.etcetera-records.com/media/filer_public_thumbnails/filer_public/d9/29/d92923f4-ef7a-4e4f-a150-38bd3c65573e/ktc_1651.jpg__1080x980_q85_crop_subsampling-2.jpg)

Nearly all  these long songs have been recorded before, some of them by very fine singers like Paul Hillier and some of them much more dramatically by ensembles like Studio der Frühen Musik. Paloma Guttiérez del Arroyo does not have a voice with a greatly distinctive character, neither does she have the power of declamation like an opera singer or a story teller. Her voice is pure and her approach is simple and relatively unadorned. What she does is beautiful and perfect. Manuel Vilas provides a suitably  sober harp accompaniment, also perfect. This is the sort of recording which may underwhelm at first, but which, little by little, reveals itself over time to be more and more rewarding - more rewarding than the flashier alternatives in my case at least. A revelation in fact because it shows that this sort of music can be enhanced by a restrained approach.


No booklet online and hence no texts of the songs, and that’s a downer.

Paloma Gutiérrez del Arroyo also on this very nice recording of Catigas de Santa Maria - music which normally I’m not so keen on but this seems to do a very good job of making them listenable for me. Not too jaunty, not too white note, not too strong in the pulse department!

(http://covers.believedigital.com/600/3325480688430.jpg)

Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on May 12, 2021, 03:49:27 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71xkmD2l4pL._SX522_.jpg)

This is 4 CDs worth of Troubadour stuff from René Clemencic, you know what to expect. I’ve only just got it, and I’m listening to CD 3 now, picked at random.

Very very entertaining!
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Old San Antone on May 12, 2021, 04:24:30 AM
I subscribe to the Youtube channel  Trob'art Productions (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtDqvYuvFRO1xkGOi8JoJkw) - Based on rigorous research and practice, the association Trob'Art Productions aims to develop knowledge and knowledge of the art of troubadours and more generally of poetry sung in the Mediterranean in its Occitan artistic aspects, music and poetry, current musical creations. It is in charge of the programming and artistic direction of the festival "Les Troubadours chantent l'art romanent en Languedoc-Roussillon".

Members include Sandra Hurtado Ròs, Denyse Macnamara, Gérard Zuchetto, André Rochard, Patrice Villaumé, Antoni Madueño Ranchal, Christos Barbas, Peppe Frana, Euripides Dikaios

Here's a recent clip:

https://www.youtube.com/v/LIbAinSrMJo


Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Old San Antone on May 12, 2021, 04:43:10 AM
Musica Medievale is another YouTube channel with troubadour music, like this one:

https://www.youtube.com/v/SY7me_gTIys

Chansons Des Troubadours
1 Guiraud Riquier - Plus Astres No M'es Donatz
2 Gaucelm Faidit - S'om Pogués Partir Son Voler
3 Bernard De Ventadour - Estat Ai Com Òm Esperdutz
4 Raimon De Miraval - Bèl M'es Qu'ieu Chant E Coindei
5 Berenguier de Palou - Dòmna, Si Totz Temps Vivia
6 Aimeric De Peguilhan - En Greu Pantais M'a Tengut Longamen
7 Marcabru - L'autrier, A L'issida D'abriu
8 Rigaud De Barbezieux - Atressi Com Persavaus

Chansons Des Trouvères
9 Gace Brulé Chanson D'amour: Ire D'amors Qui En Mon Cuer Repaire
10 Anonyme - Lai Arthurien: A Vous, Tristan, Amis Verai
11 Anonyme - Reverdie: A L'entrant Dou Temps Novel
12 Thibaut De Champagne - Serventois: Deus Est Ensi Conme Le Pellicanz
13 Anonyme - Chanson De Toile: Bele Yolanz En Ses Chambres Seoit
14 Hue De Saint-Quentin - Jerusalem Se Plaint Et Li Païs
15 Anonyme - Pastourelle: Chevauchoie Lez Un Bruel
16 Blondel De Nesle - Chanson D'amour: A La Dolçor D'esté Qui Renverdoie

Directed By - Gérard Le Vot
Bagpipes - Patrick Verdié
Drum - Gérard Le Vot
Flute - Patrick Verdié
Lute - Salah A Mohammad, Jean-Claude Trichard (tracks: 3,16),
Rebec - Julien Skowron
Tambourine - Patrick Verdié
Vielle - Julien Skowron, Paul Fustier
Vocals - Anne-Marie Lablaude (tracks: 10,13,15), Dominique Vellard (tracks: 4,6), Elisabeth Renault (tracks: 2), Gérard Le Vot (tracks: 1,3,5,7,8,9,11,14,15,16), Jean-Blaise Roch (tracks: 12)


Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: deprofundis on July 30, 2021, 03:53:29 AM
Mandryka hello, do you like Jaufre Rudel, sedely I only found one album dedicated to him and this composer deserve better, he was a great Troubadour and one of my ancestor of Town of Blaya, I'm a proud occitan, we have a nice Flag, don't you think.

How about in this trend  other composer troubadour of Occitania and  our history of great Trouvere, ask you're buddy of Occitania to participate, GMG occitanic people of Spain , France, Italy participate, most of us Occitan love Troubadour  and mostly ars subtilior.

Bonne journée tres cher Monsieur ,vous etes un grand homme je vous respecte 100%.Deuxio vous etes un connaisseur et un érudit de la musique ancienne vous avez gagner mon respect depuis longtemps.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on July 30, 2021, 08:30:13 PM
Mandryka hello, do you like Jaufre Rudel, sedely I only found one album dedicated to him and this composer deserve better, he was a great Troubadour and one of my ancestor of Town of Blaya, I'm a proud occitan, we have a nice Flag, don't you think.

How about in this trend  other composer troubadour of Occitania and  our history of great Trouvere, ask you're buddy of Occitania to participate, GMG occitanic people of Spain , France, Italy participate, most of us Occitan love Troubadour  and mostly ars subtilior.

Bonne journée tres cher Monsieur ,vous etes un grand homme je vous respecte 100%.Deuxio vous etes un connaisseur et un érudit de la musique ancienne vous avez gagner mon respect depuis longtemps.

Medieval troubadour music is very much a living thing in occitanie, you hear it being sung in town squares, market places. Jauffre Rudel figures on one of my favourite CDs -

(https://i.scdn.co/image/ab67616d0000b273f274dbc35e1a90577f1cd34c)

J’apprécie vos aimables paroles et je vous remercie.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on July 30, 2021, 08:42:19 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71xkmD2l4pL._SX522_.jpg)

This is 4 CDs worth of Troubadour stuff from René Clemencic, you know what to expect. I’ve only just got it, and I’m listening to CD 3 now, picked at random.

Very very entertaining!

This is a constant source of pleasure! Well worth acquiring.
Title: Re: The Troubadour Thread.
Post by: Mandryka on September 12, 2021, 11:23:04 AM
https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.medievalacademy.org/resource/resmgr/maa_books_online/switten_0093_bkmrkdpdf.pdf

Margaret Switten's book on Raimon de Miraval

(Interesting especially because it looks at the melodies -- not many troubadour songs come with music in the manuscript sources.)