If this subject has been raised previously then I apologise for doing so again. But a genuine concern so here goes.
I would say that most, as much as 90% of my purchases on the CD format are pre-loved i.e not new. Some I have noticed have a bronze hew instead of silver. Should these be avoided? - which makes a mockery of Philips claim of "Perfect sound forever". Two questions: Is bronzing a sign of ageing and does it have any bearing on replay quality?
Quote from: Irons on February 28, 2020, 06:44:28 AM
If this subject has been raised previously then I apologise for doing so again. But a genuine concern so here goes.
I would say that most, as much as 90% of my purchases on the CD format are pre-loved i.e not new. Some I have noticed have a bronze hew instead of silver. Should these be avoided? - which makes a mockery of Philips claim of "Perfect sound forever". Two questions: Is bronzing a sign of ageing and does it have any bearing on replay quality?
Bronzing was a normal thing years ago when PDO pressed CD'S of faulty material. I have a few on the label Albany and Hyperion. Eventually these CD'S will degraded to the point of not playable anymore. After this PDO disaster I have no knowledge it ever happened again. So yes avoid them.
Adding to Harry's comments, the defective CDs were manufactured between 1988 and 1993, and would have become unplayable by now. Any CD that plays now is probably not defective. Usually the outer edge (the end of the last track) is the first part of a disc to be affected. There are also CDs that were manufactured with a yellow dye in the plastic to make them look golden. These are not a problem.
Hyperion has a useful page with information on "bronzed" discs.
https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/pages/bronzed.asp
Quote from: "Harry" on February 28, 2020, 06:51:04 AM
Bronzing was a normal thing years ago when PDO pressed CD'S of faulty material. I have a few on the label Albany and Hyperion. Eventually these CD'S will degraded to the point of not playable anymore. After this PDO disaster I have no knowledge it ever happened again. So yes avoid them.
Or copy them to other media on a computer. I'm copying a load of mine as unaltered AIFF files to two hard drives from which I can make further copies in whatever formats I want for my playback devices.
Irons,
Are they still playable? Fingers crossed for you.
I recently avoided purchasing a set (forget which label it was on....think it was DG?) as it had the old foam inserts--one of which was stuck to the first CD! :-(
PD
Yes, bronzing on CDs is definitely bad news. If they are important to you then I would start the processing of copying straight away. I had a few in my collection and they eventually became unplayable.
The only label I had problems with was Hyperion. And I had the best experience with them: I wrote to them that the disk(s) was unplayable, and they had me send them some info off the disk itself to verify I actually had it, and then they sent me the entire disk as FLAC files. In all 3 cases (over 2 years) where this occurred, they told me they would have just sent me a new pressing of the disk but they didn't have any remaining. I am very fond of Hyperion, needless to say.
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on February 28, 2020, 07:10:35 AM
I recently avoided purchasing a set (forget which label it was on....think it was DG?) as it had the old foam inserts--one of which was stuck to the first CD! :-(
PD
I had this same experience, couldn't avoid it as it was already mine. I count myself fortunate that I was able to rescue that disk, and immediately searched for others that could have the same problem. I wonder what they were thinking? ???
8)
As someone pointed out "bronzing" in the strict sense was a comparably local problem that mostly affected a bunch of British labels (but also Nuova Era and Tactus from Italy and DG).
Beware of older (used) hyperion but their more recent (;) after 1995 or so) ones or re-issues would not be affected. Note that the special problem with Hyperion is that many of their disc regularly have a golden tinge, so bronzing can be much harder to spot.
Effectively, I have about a handful or so of bronzed CDs. I lost the Mozart c minor mass with Fricsay on DG resonance many years ago to bronzing. Trying to burn a copy was too late or the late 1990s/early 2000s soft/hardware I used was not up to the task. I also once got an already unplayable hyperion from ebay (I think the seller refunded me when I complained; he had not been aware of the problem). Then I have two or three more hyperions (one from the Goodman Haydn, one from King's Purcell series) and one or two more DG Archiv (Pinnock with JC Bach chamber music and the Haydn Stabat Mater) that are discolored but either still play or I made copies in time). All of them were very evenly discolored, never showed the characteristic pattern found in online sources with the outer section much darker. But I got one of the latter, too, it is a Corelli sonatas anthology from Tactus I got sealed! (new old stock, I guess) from Ebay.
The old foam inserts should be removed immediately! They are more than useless (only during shipping/transportation can they help protecting the discs) because them getting stuck can be as bad a problem as any. Although one can usually remove them with warm water and some mild agent without too much damage.
FWIW, I never remember finding a disc I had purchased new had bronzed. I purchased a disc in the last few years that arrived "bronzed" and it was utterly unplayable - wasn't even recognized as a CD by the player. Got refunded by zoverstocks without question. By now any defective disc has deteriorated beyond any remedy, I think.
I did notice at one point that holding up an old CD to a light I could see pinholes. They played fine, nevertheless. I don't know if that was deterioration or just manufacturing quality. In any case, I've got my CDs copied to hard disc (Flac) so it is hard disc corruption, not bronzing, that worries me.
The only one that I have, so far, had a problem with was the Bantock Hebridean/Celtic symphonies on Hyperion, a few years ago. I contacted Hyperion about it. They asked me to send them the CD and they then immediately exchanged it for a silver CD which played properly.
Thanks gents, and PD. I must be unlucky as coming across quite a few lately which prompted the query. I thought it likely not be good so not purchased, but yesterday forgetting to check I paid £5 for a Nimbus CD (manufactured by themselves) of William Boughton conducting English music for strings. The bronzing is quite bad, being a regular customer I'm sure they will take it back. If they argue I will show them your posts!
In future I will note the labels suffering from this problem.
Quote from: Jo498 on February 28, 2020, 09:29:26 AM
The old foam inserts should be removed immediately! They are more than useless (only during shipping/transportation can they help protecting the discs) because them getting stuck can be as bad a problem as any. Although one can usually remove them with warm water and some mild agent without too much damage.
Very true. Many of my old opera boxes (the Solti
Ring especially comes to mind) experienced severe degradation/rotting of the foam inserts, which were adhering to the back of the discs. It was alarming; I gingerly removed all such inserts and fortunately the CDs continued to play as before.
Oh, dear, I may be the reason you had to send in the CD first, because originally I believe they'd just replace a CD immediately on request. I did not send in my bronzed CD after receiving the replacement. I am bad man.
(It was Svetlanov's Antar on Hyperion.)
Does CD bronzing make it so the discs can't be ripped? I have some old CDs with pinholes and those can't be ripped.
Quote from: Daverz on February 28, 2020, 01:49:00 PM
(It was Svetlanov's Antar on Hyperion.)
Ran to pull this one out of storage, completely bronzed! ??? Damn, I ripped this one decades ago when I was still listening to MP3.
(https://i.imgur.com/clrsnSG.jpg)
The only bronzed CD I own is this one on Hyperion:
(https://img.discogs.com/rJtj-iehP_YpBYoWg6hLcEwj04c=/fit-in/600x591/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-1077615-1319708235.jpeg.jpg)
To my knowledge, it still plays fine with no issues.
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on February 28, 2020, 06:59:55 AM
Usually the outer edge (the end of the last track) is the first part of a disc to be affected.
In that case only very full CDs (long playing duration) would be affected - anything up to about 65 mins is nowhere near the outer edge. In any case that is my experience with over-stuffed CDs in general, if the duration is well over 70 minutes the last couple of minutes are the most problematic. With any luck the last track is a filler that doesn't interest me anyway!
Quote from: hvbias on February 28, 2020, 01:49:46 PM
Does CD bronzing make it so the discs can't be ripped? I have some old CDs with pinholes and those can't be ripped.
Audio CD players are designed to play audio CDs in a fault-tolerant way - computer CD drives are not. So in general if there is an audible fault on a CD player that problem will almost certainly be present when ripping. On the other hand, good ripping software can be set to scan problem areas several times (a very slow process) with varying degrees of success.
That's a good picture of the "typical" bronzing. However, there are also very even and slight discolorations that are almost impossible to distinguish from the slight golden tinge some discs do have originally; of my 5-7 (possibly) bronzed discs, only one or two had the "typical" appearance, I believe.
I all my collecting years, I've only come across bronzed CDs three times: on Pearl, Hyperion and Tactus.
The Tactus was only recently, I guess the disc had been lingering in storage for decades.
I replaced the disc with that of a cheap reissue, and kept the case with the original, elaborate booklet.
Q
I have purchased a few CD's in the past that were described as new and were heavely bronzed and unplayable (EMI) I have still a few that are lightly bronzed and they are stable now for some years. Those foam inserts were also horrible.
Quote from: aukhawk on February 29, 2020, 12:29:36 AM
Audio CD players are designed to play audio CDs in a fault-tolerant way - computer CD drives are not. So in general if there is an audible fault on a CD player that problem will almost certainly be present when ripping. On the other hand, good ripping software can be set to scan problem areas several times (a very slow process) with varying degrees of success.
It did rip fine in EAC secure test & copy, but still makes me a bit nervous for probably dozens of others still lurking in boxes that might not.
A big thumbs up to eBay. I purchased a used CD on the site of a Chandos CD of the Bax Piano Quintet/2nd String Quartet. The Quintet played perfectly, and very good it is too. However, halfway through the quartet the music started to brake up badly. I nervously placed another CD in the tray which played faultlessly.
At £7, keep - the quintet was reason of purchase - or return. I decided on the latter. It could not have been easier. A short message to seller then on "My eBay" a pre-paid tracked postage with the return address popped up to print off and tape over the original packing.
I have had three or four defective CDs in a hundred or so. Is this normal? (I purchase mostly 2nd hand) I have not read any comments on GMG on this subject.
Quote from: Irons on June 07, 2020, 01:25:49 AM
A big thumbs up to eBay. I purchased a used CD on the site of a Chandos CD of the Bax Piano Quintet/2nd String Quartet. The Quintet played perfectly, and very good it is too. However, halfway through the quartet the music started to brake up badly. I nervously placed another CD in the tray which played faultlessly.
At £7, keep - the quintet was reason of purchase - or return. I decided on the latter. It could not have been easier. A short message to seller then on "My eBay" a pre-paid tracked postage with the return address popped up to print off and tape over the original packing.
I have had three or four defective CDs in a hundred or so. Is this normal? (I purchase mostly 2nd hand) I have not read any comments on GMG on this subject.
Was it bronzing, scratches or a factory (pressing) flaw?
I only encountered bronzed CDs three times, but it depends on which labels you buy. It's a thing of the past, but can be encountered when buying used
Factory flaws only a couple of times (say five).
With 2nd hand things get trickier...
Sometimes it's just dust or finger prints, and a piece of paper kitchen towel with a alcohol based spray is a good fix.
I hate scratches... How on earth do people scratch their CDs?
Unless the disc is not always either in the case or in the player? ::)
This why I never buy "good condition", but new or like new.
If it is something I really want, I'll take a chance with "very good"...
Q
Quote from: Que on June 07, 2020, 01:45:51 AM
Was it bronzing, scratches or a factory (pressing) flaw?
I only encountered bronzed CDs three times, but it depends on which labels you buy. It's a thing of the past, but can be encountered when buying used
Used or new old stock. It's probably about 8 years ago now but I once got a sealed disc (Tactus) that was bronzed. It had probably remained sealed for about 20 years in some warehouse or so...
Quote
I hate scratches... How on earth do people scratch their CDs?
Unless the disc is not always either in the case or in the player? ::)
CDs are quite robust, so I also wonder how some people manage to scratch them so badly. But there are some cases and apparently also some player (older car players?) that can produce scratches, I believe.
Quote from: Que on June 07, 2020, 01:45:51 AM
Was it bronzing, scratches or a factory (pressing) flaw?
I only encountered bronzed CDs three times, but it depends on which labels you buy. It's a thing of the past, but can be encountered when buying used
Factory flaws only a couple of times (say five).
With 2nd hand things get trickier...
Sometimes it's just dust or finger prints, and a piece of paper kitchen towel with a alcohol based spray is a good fix.
I hate scratches... How on earth do people scratch their CDs?
Unless the disc is not always either in the case or in the player? ::)
This why I never buy "good condition", but new or like new.
If it is something I really want, I'll take a chance with "very good"...
Q
Not bronzing, this seemed a convenient place to post query. The Bax CD appeared fine without scratches so assume a manufacturing fault but admit not attempting cleaning with alcohol, maybe I should have tried that. I understand all players are equipped with error correction but I wonder with error correction working at full tilt the quality of sound suffers? My knowledge of digital recording technology is minuscule.
A guess-estimate of CDs on my shelves was conservative, at least double that, so buying used roughly 2% purchased are unplayable due to faults. I would double that at least buying vinyl.
Flac and (if possible) offsite copies.
Some photographers are pretty serious about so copying/taking inspiration from their backup system a good idea.
Irons,
I ran into problems with one eBay seller (a big small company if that makes sense) which would auction off CDs claiming that they were 'as new' (or other such words); I received one 2-CD set from them and realized that they were re-surfacing them (basically taking a thin layer off of the shiny side). The way that I discovered this: the first CD was pristine looking and the second was badly scratched in a number of areas! Some CDs that have had this 'polishing method' done to them will play fine, but it can also vary depending upon how sensitive your CD player is.
Note: depending upon how deep the scratch is, even this method may not work.
PD
I overall had very few bad used CDs among the many hundreds or even thousands I have bought over the years. Sure, I got around 3-5 bronzed ones (but with the very even kind of bronzing one could hardly blame the seller as there are some discs that look like that without being bronzed) and a few scratched or dirty ones (that would play anyway most of the time). I was probably more frequently angry about broken cases (if non-standard cases that are not easily to replace) or booklets in a bad state. And with many sellers the "like new, very good, good" is not very helpful. I have received "good" ones that were like new and supposedly "very good" ones that showed marks or had pages of booklets missing etc. The professional resellers buy them in bulk and cheap part time labor puts them online; they are not going to spend a lot of time writing descriptions...
Quote from: Jo498 on June 08, 2020, 07:27:08 AM
I overall had very few bad used CDs among the many hundreds or even thousands I have bought over the years. Sure, I got around 3-5 bronzed ones (but with the very even kind of bronzing one could hardly blame the seller as there are some discs that look like that without being bronzed) and a few scratched or dirty ones (that would play anyway most of the time). I was probably more frequently angry about broken cases (if non-standard cases that are not easily to replace) or booklets in a bad state. And with many sellers the "like new, very good, good" is not very helpful. I have received "good" ones that were like new and supposedly "very good" ones that showed marks or had pages of booklets missing etc. The professional resellers buy them in bulk and cheap part time labor puts them online; they are not going to spend a lot of time writing descriptions...
A CD may play fine on one player and not on another.
Sure. But most of us have probably at least two or three players, including computer drives.
Quote from: Jo498 on June 08, 2020, 07:27:08 AM
I overall had very few bad used CDs among the many hundreds or even thousands I have bought over the years. Sure, I got around 3-5 bronzed ones (but with the very even kind of bronzing one could hardly blame the seller as there are some discs that look like that without being bronzed) and a few scratched or dirty ones (that would play anyway most of the time). I was probably more frequently angry about broken cases (if non-standard cases that are not easily to replace) or booklets in a bad state. And with many sellers the "like new, very good, good" is not very helpful. I have received "good" ones that were like new and supposedly "very good" ones that showed marks or had pages of booklets missing etc. The professional resellers buy them in bulk and cheap part time labor puts them online; they are not going to spend a lot of time writing descriptions...
I must be unlucky. Compared with most if not all forum members my CD collection is miniscule and yet here we go again! Seriously miffed to receive yesterday a full priced Dutton CD (new but not purchased from Dutton) still in shrink rap in a bronzed condition. I will get my money back but I am unable to listen to a piece I was looking forward to when I wanted to.
Quote from: Irons on September 11, 2020, 12:38:46 AM
I must be unlucky. Compared with most if not all forum members my CD collection is miniscule and yet here we go again! Seriously miffed to receive yesterday a full priced Dutton CD (new but not purchased from Dutton) still in shrink rap in a bronzed condition. I will get my money back but I am unable to listen to a piece I was looking forward to when I wanted to.
(https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=29630.0;attach=67297;image)
That certainly is unlucky and worrying. Do you know the date of manufacture of the CD?
Maybe you are, but you are also in the UK which was the main "basis" of bronzed discs and labels like ASV and Hyperion were among the most afflicted. I also once got an old stock still sealed disc from Tactus (Italy) that was already bronzed. And I once or twice forgot to never buy old used Hyperion or ASV discs and got 2-3 bronzed ones.
There are other ways discs can be faulty but if someone acquired a huge collection in the last 10 years mostly on the basis of these huge cheap boxes with dozens or >100 discs that are all fairly recent, he will not have any bronzed discs because this particular fault only concerns discs that are ca. 30 years old.
I got an old Hyperion disc recently that was totally bronze, but played just fine. Is this abnormal?
No idea. The additional problem is that some hyperion discs do regularly (i.e. without being "bronzed") the bronze-ish color. That's why it is often very difficult to see. Of the handful of bronzed discs I have seen only one or two had the typical discoloration pattern with much darker zones, all the others were so evenly and slightly discolored that it might as well have been the real proper color.
Usually the playback problems start on the last track(s). My first bronzed disc was Mozart's c minor mass with Fricsay on DG resonance. For a long time, I could still play all but the last one or two tracks.
I'd rip/copy the disc ASAP and then you will probably be fine. Or maybe ripping/copying will already exhibit some reading problems.
Quote from: Irons on September 11, 2020, 12:38:46 AM
I must be unlucky. Compared with most if not all forum members my CD collection is miniscule and yet here we go again! Seriously miffed to receive yesterday a full priced Dutton CD (new but not purchased from Dutton) still in shrink rap in a bronzed condition. I will get my money back but I am unable to listen to a piece I was looking forward to when I wanted to.
Sorry to hear that Irons. Out of curiosity, is the whole CD unlistenable? Or as Jo had mentioned, 'just' the last few tracks?
Best wishes,
PD
Quote from: Jo498 on September 11, 2020, 03:42:47 AM
No idea. The additional problem is that some hyperion discs do regularly (i.e. without being "bronzed") the bronze-ish color. That's why it is often very difficult to see. Of the handful of bronzed discs I have seen only one or two had the typical discoloration pattern with much darker zones, all the others were so evenly and slightly discolored that it might as well have been the real proper color.
Usually the playback problems start on the last track(s). My first bronzed disc was Mozart's c minor mass with Fricsay on DG resonance. For a long time, I could still play all but the last one or two tracks.
I'd rip/copy the disc ASAP and then you will probably be fine. Or maybe ripping/copying will already exhibit some reading problems.
That is good advice because, in my experience, the deterioration is gradual. So, it may be fine today but in say a year's time it may be unplayable. I would certainly rip it now to be on the safe side.
Quote from: aligreto on September 11, 2020, 05:43:07 AM
That is good advice because, in my experience, the deterioration is gradual. So, it may be fine today but in say a year's time it may be unplayable. I would certainly rip it now to be on the safe side.
You have hit nail on head, aligreto. I have since discovered the vendor is in fact Dutton trading under another name on eBay. After emailing them I received a prompt reply informing me they sell "thousands" of discs without issue and to return CD and they will "test" it - by playing I guess. If a defect is discovered they will forward me a replacement. As I pointed out in my reply the CD will quite possibly play OK but that is not the point. After paying 13 quid + postage (+ postage sending back) I do not wish to own an item with questionable longevity and I am definitely not prepared to transfer to CDR or similar.
I will post the hopefully satisfactory outcome of this.
Quote from: Irons on September 11, 2020, 07:01:51 AM
You have hit nail on head, aligreto. I have since discovered the vendor is in fact Dutton trading under another name on eBay. After emailing them I received a prompt reply informing me they sell "thousands" of discs without issue and to return CD and they will "test" it - by playing I guess. If a defect is discovered they will forward me a replacement. As I pointed out in my reply the CD will quite possibly play OK but that is not the point. After paying 13 quid + postage (+ postage sending back) I do not wish to own an item with questionable longevity and I am definitely not prepared to transfer to CDR or similar.
I will post the hopefully satisfactory outcome of this.
You are quite correct and they will know this. It will be interesting to see how they ultimately respond to you. Keep us informed.
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on September 11, 2020, 03:52:30 AM
Sorry to hear that Irons. Out of curiosity, is the whole CD unlistenable? Or as Jo had mentioned, 'just' the last few tracks?
Best wishes,
PD
Did not play it, P. Second-hand is different but this is a new item. It will play perfectly for all I know but for how long?
Quote from: Irons on September 11, 2020, 07:12:20 AM
Did not play it, P. Second-hand is different but this is a new item. It will play perfectly for all I know but for how long?
Irons (and others here),
I've wondered at times as to different colored CDs...as in how much variation is there which is normal and not an issue (unlike bronzing)? Yours, to me, doesn't look like bronzing..at least comparing it to online photos that I've googled.
Does anyone here know?
By the way, what does Dutton go by on eBay?
And good luck!
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on September 11, 2020, 07:36:37 AM
Irons (and others here),
I've wondered at times as to different colored CDs...as in how much variation is there which is normal and not an issue (unlike bronzing)? Yours, to me, doesn't look like bronzing..at least comparing it to online photos that I've googled.
Does anyone here know?
By the way, what does Dutton go by on eBay?
And good luck!
PD
deramnut
Thanks Irons! :)
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on September 11, 2020, 07:36:37 AM
Irons (and others here),
I've wondered at times as to different colored CDs...as in how much variation is there which is normal and not an issue (unlike bronzing)? Yours, to me, doesn't look like bronzing..at least comparing it to online photos that I've googled.
Does anyone here know?
By the way, what does Dutton go by on eBay?
And good luck!
PD
It does look as if you are correct, P. After examination, Simon at Dutton informed me the disc is not faulty as the colouring is caused by the disc being a SACD with two layers of code, one for CD and other SACD.
I should mention Dutton have been perfectly reasonable and polite.
Quote from: Irons on September 19, 2020, 01:36:49 AM
It does look as if you are correct, P. After examination, Simon at Dutton informed me the disc is not faulty as the colouring is caused by the disc being a SACD with two layers of code, one for CD and other SACD.
I should mention Dutton have been perfectly reasonable and polite.
Oh, good! And nice to know that too! Trust that it will be back in your hands soon? :)
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on September 20, 2020, 08:04:29 AM
Oh, good! And nice to know that too! Trust that it will be back in your hands soon? :)
PD
Arrived (back) today.
Quote from: Irons on September 21, 2020, 10:35:26 AM
Arrived (back) today.
Yeah! Hope that you enjoy the music! :)
PD
Warning - a friend of mine just found a bronzed Hyperion CD released in the mid 2000s. Stephen Hough's Rachmaninov concertos. He found it today and just emailed the label.
Incredible!
Supposedly the bronzing only affected a limited number of CD pressing plants around 1990?!? I have been "burned" several times by buying used/"as new old stock" CDs from that time, hyperion, Tactus, ASV but this was my own fault because I should have known about the danger with CDs from that vintage.
Yes I think that it is highly unlikely. No offense, but I don't find a single anecdote as reliable evidence. Especially when it flies in the face of common knowledge.
Of course it does not help that the slightly golden hue is standard for many/all? Hyperion disc. But the "real" bronzing was a fairly specific fault, AFAIK.
He checked by playing the disc first and encountered sound problems. He is a professional musician and professional critic, and a past chair of the Pulitzer composition prize jury, so I don't distrust his judgment ;D . He sent them photos. Hopefully it was somehow a one-off manufacturing error and not evidence of another problem on the horizon.
Update from Hyperion directly: the first SACD pressing (discs made in 2004) of that specific recording (Hough Rachmaninov concertos) has shown signs of corrosion in other copies as well. No subsequent pressings, CD pressings, or other Hyperion SACDs show the defect so at this time they think it was specific to that batch of discs.
There are several possible defects and even several types of corrosion. Maybe even the 1990s "bronzing" covered several somewhat different effects. (The official story then was that it was only a few pressing plants and also related to a reaction with the ink of some booklets, I think.)
Of the half dozen or so affected discs I have had/seen, only one or two showed the characteristic color pattern one finds as examples in the web. The others had only an overall slight discoloring (that was identical to the color of some unaffected discs, namely the slighty golden-hued ones). I have also encountered a few disc become unplayable at least in some tracks without any visible clue to what the problem could be... This is from 1000s of discs within 30+ years, so the problem remains fortunately quire rare.
the few discs that I've had that ever did that were easily wiped off, and the effect never returned
Real bronzing is not on the outermost layer only, I think, it cannot be wiped off. You get clicks or skips, usually starting on the last few tracks of the discs. Sometimes one can still make a copy, sometimes this is not even possible anymore.
Quote from: Brian on June 20, 2022, 07:33:01 PM
Warning - a friend of mine just found a bronzed Hyperion CD released in the mid 2000s. Stephen Hough's Rachmaninov concertos. He found it today and just emailed the label.
Oh dear, I have that 2-CD set. Will need to take a look at mine. Fingers are crossed here.
PD
Quote from: Brian on June 21, 2022, 03:32:32 PM
Update from Hyperion directly: the first SACD pressing (discs made in 2004) of that specific recording (Hough Rachmaninov concertos) has shown signs of corrosion in other copies as well. No subsequent pressings, CD pressings, or other Hyperion SACDs show the defect so at this time they think it was specific to that batch of discs.
Thank you for that further info. I'll check into mine. Can't remember off-hand as to when I bought them and also whether or not they were SACDs...for another day to look into. Appreciate all of the info and detective work from everyone here though! :)
PD
My most recent bronzed CD that I received was George Lloyd's Symphonic Mass conducted by Lloyd. Didn't play or rip :( Does anyone know if Albany replace CDs?
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 01, 2022, 01:55:43 PM
Thank you for that further info. I'll check into mine. Can't remember off-hand as to when I bought them and also whether or not they were SACDs...for another day to look into. Appreciate all of the info and detective work from everyone here though! :)
PD
You'll be fine if they are SACDs. Those only started to be made in 1998 or 1999.
Quote from: hvbias on August 01, 2022, 03:35:27 PM
My most recent bronzed CD that I received was George Lloyd's Symphonic Mass conducted by Lloyd. Didn't play or rip :( Does anyone know if Albany replace CDs?
You'll be fine if they are SACDs. Those only started to be made in 1998 or 1999.
Just checked mine. They're CDs and in pristine shape. :)
PD
I had several Albany discs that were bronzed, but never got any reply from them regarding replacements, despite several emails. And since they are out of print, I very much doubt that I will ever get them replaced.
Quote from: Harry on August 02, 2022, 04:11:23 AM
I had several Albany discs that were bronzed, but never got any reply from them regarding replacements, despite several emails. And since they are out of print, I very much doubt that I will ever get them replaced.
That's a shame. Perhaps they might be able to replace them with a CD-Rom at least (or a free download?)...if you ever manage to get a reply back from them. If not and also if you particularly love these discs, keep an eye out for a used copy.
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 02, 2022, 03:46:00 AM
Just checked mine. They're CDs and in pristine shape. :)
PD
What do you think of the performances PD? Someone put up a
very favorable review of them on another music board. If I'm remembering right Hough takes tempos most similar to Rachmaninoff. I will have to revisit these to see which cadenzas he plays. I think my memory of them is they didn't make my regular go to versions.
I have them as regular CDs, fortunately not bronzed.
Edit: I went back to read the previous posts on this album, I will have to take back my post about SACDs not being prone to corrosion. Very strange that it would appear on a 2004 release. In my experience discs pressed at PDO UK were the source of the major issues and I thought it was only between a set time frame, ~1989-1996 give or take a couple of years.
Quote from: Brian on June 20, 2022, 07:33:01 PM
Warning - a friend of mine just found a bronzed Hyperion CD released in the mid 2000s. Stephen Hough's Rachmaninov concertos. He found it today and just emailed the label.
Hyperion are the only company whose CD 'bronzed' for me (a Bantock release). They replaced it immediately. I guess that there may well be others in my collection.
Quote from: hvbias on August 03, 2022, 04:15:48 AM
What do you think of the performances PD? Someone put up a very favorable review of them on another music board. If I'm remembering right Hough takes tempos most similar to Rachmaninoff. I will have to revisit these to see which cadenzas he plays. I think my memory of them is they didn't make my regular go to versions.
I have them as regular CDs, fortunately not bronzed.
Edit: I went back to read the previous posts on this album, I will have to take back my post about SACDs not being prone to corrosion. Very strange that it would appear on a 2004 release. In my experience discs pressed at PDO UK were the source of the major issues and I thought it was only between a set time frame, ~1989-1996 give or take a couple of years.
It's been quite some time since I have listened to them, but I recall not being particularly wowed by them unfortunately. :( I should give them another shot. Must admit, the thought of turning on tube equipment with the temps that we have been having is
not particularly enticing--that, plus I just spent 2+ hours working in the garden and am cooling off.
In any event, let us know what you think of them. :)
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 03, 2022, 05:01:39 AM
It's been quite some time since I have listened to them, but I recall not being particularly wowed by them unfortunately. :( I should give them another shot. Must admit, the thought of turning on tube equipment with the temps that we have been having is not particularly enticing--that, plus I just spent 2+ hours working in the garden and am cooling off.
In any event, let us know what you think of them. :)
PD
Ha! I feel like I can relate so much, I have to run the AC pretty hard to get two hours of listening in on the main stereo before it starts to warm up the room too much. My next venture will be paying more attention to DSP speakers and class D amps.
I am pretty certain I'd agree with your assessment on these Rachmaninoff performances. I believe of the five works Hough was best in Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini though for me it's still hard to top Reiner/Rubinstein.
edit: my favorite Hough disc is his one of all Mompou.
Quote from: hvbias on August 03, 2022, 06:01:24 AM
Ha! I feel like I can relate so much, I have to run the AC pretty hard to get two hours of listening in on the main stereo before it starts to warm up the room too much. My next venture will be paying more attention to DSP speakers and class D amps.
I am pretty certain I'd agree with your assessment on these Rachmaninoff performances. I believe of the five works Hough was best in Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini though for me it's still hard to top Reiner/Rubinstein.
edit: my favorite Hough disc is his one of all Mompou.
Let me know how your audio adventures go. :) Must admit, I love the "extra" heat during the wintertime...and most importantly (of course), the sound of my system. :D
I have a few albums with Hough: his Spanish Album, Chopin - Late Masterpieces, and Piano Music by Federico Mompou, York Bowen Piano Music and that double Rachmaninov one. Perhaps the Spanish one would be good for the incoming heatwave?
Rubinstein is always fun to listen to. :)
PD
I found this article on Discogs recently:
How to Look After Your CDs
February 4, 2019
Disc rot affects CDs, DVDs, Blu-rays, and LaserDiscs in different ways depending on how they're manufactured and structured. Generally speaking, disc rot occurs due to chemical reactions with the reflective layer of the disc, ultraviolet light damage, scratches that expose the delicate and corrosive layer to environmental factors, or the deterioration of manufacturing materials.
CDs are often touted as the most durable physical music format because of the lack of contact during playback, compared to vinyl records and cassette tapes. Hell, I'll admit, that with the exception of surface abrasions, I thought there was little you could do to corrupt a compact disc. Check out the BBC's Tomorrow World's totally convincing demonstration of the marvels of the new CD format:
https://youtu.be/bMp1pSVxoqw
Which is why I was caught off guard when I came across this article on disc rot on Motherboard. Great, as if it wasn't enough that my stylus is wearing out my records, and my tapes are all unspooled – now I have to worry about the degradation of my CDs as well. In fact, no one knows how long CDs can last. The answer is dependent on a number of factors, including where the disc was manufactured and how it is stored.
So why have we been treating these flat plastic donuts as an indestructible format for music and video when really they're a delicate, carefully balanced alchemy of audiovisual data?
CD Disc Rot
In the case of CDs, disc rot is the effect of oxidation of the reflective layer of the disc, resulting in what can look like bronze discoloration, or as one victim described it, "a constellation of pinpricks" in the data layer of the disc. As anyone who's suffered the misfortune of a scratched or scuffed disc CD will know, it doesn't take a hell of a lot of damage to render the disc unreadable, and once that data is gone, it's gone for good. CD degradation can be caused by mishandling or improper storage, but disc rot is typically caused by a chemical reaction with the reflective layer of the disc.
DVD Disc Rot
Though they look almost identical to CDs, DVD structure is a little different, using a plastic disc over the reflective layer. This is good news if you get a scratch on your disc as it means it's less likely to reach the reflective layer and expose it to environmental damage. However, because of this structure, they can also suffer from delamination, where layers of the disc separate. On the disc, delamination can look like a coffee stain. Poor case design has been blamed by some as the case for DVD disc rot. During playback, DVD disc rot appears as the picture pixelating or freezing in a specific spot, skipping, or again, becoming unplayable.
Are Blu-rays Safe from Disc Rot?
It seems less prevalent than CDs, DVDs and LaserDiscs, but it would be unwise to rule out Blu-ray disc rot. There are a few reports of disc rot on Blu-rays which has been described as 'small mould blooms' below the surface, rendering the disc unplayable.
Laser Rot
The name given to Laser Disc's own special brand of disc rot suggests the laser is to blame – similar to stylus wear – but again, it's just the degradation to the disc. Speckling in the video and crackling in the audio worsen as disc rot advances. It's usually attributed to oxidation of the aluminium layers by poor quality adhesives used to bond the disc halves together. Single-sided discs rarely suffer as badly as double-sided discs do.
LaserDiscs from specific manufacturers seem more likely to fall prey to laser rot. MCA DiscoVision discs are notorious for it, as well as discs pressed at Sony DADC in Terra Haute. Conversely, manufacturers like Kuraray were well known for their meticulous practices and have seen few instances of laser rot, to date.
Can I Prevent Disc Rot?
Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a surefire way to prevent disc rot due to many instances appearing due to manufacturing faults. However, proper care will help from exacerbating the problem, and it's a timely reminder that your discs are by no means indestructible.
While some of the following tips are obvious, they're also often ignored. So let's take it from the top.
Tips For The Correct Treatment Of Your Discs
Handle your discs correctly, touching only the outer edges and hole in the centre. While it's probably second nature by now to be cautious with the reflective underside of discs, you should also be careful of the top, printed layer as damage to this side can also impact playback.
Store your discs in an upright position. Avoid keeping them in stacks, much like you would vinyl records. They should also be kept in a cool, dry environment.
Keep your discs in jewel or keep cases rather than paper sleeves. Anchor the disc using the anchor pin in the centre of the case. This is the best way to ensure you're preventing scratches and damage inside the case. If the anchor pin is broken, it's best to replace the case. Stick to one disc per case, and always return the disc to the case after play (e.g. don't leave it on top of the stereo)
Label discs with a water-based marker. Hard tipped pens and chemicals can be abrasive and do damage to the data on the disc.
Check the quality of the disc before you buy – especially for secondhand discs. Look out for scratches, discoloration, or what looks like pinpricks in the disc. If you're buying recordables, spring for the higher quality version.
Discs made with gold as the reflective layer are less vulnerable to disc rot, as it's a less corrosive material, though obviously, these are rarer than their (much cheaper) aluminium counterparts. And sadly, your CD-Rs and DVD-Rs are more likely to suffer from disc rot due to the type of organic dye used in recordables.
So the takeaway here is treat your discs well and they could last you a lifetime. Or they might not. I don't know anymore, this disc rot thing has thrown my whole world into chaos.
[If you would like to read the article mentioned above on Disc rot on Motherboard, and it may be worth your while, here is the link to it: https://www.vice.com/en/article/mg9pdv/the-hidden-phenomenon-that-could-ruin-your-old-discs].
I think some statements are a bit misleading. AFAIK the "pinpricks" and the "bronzing" are distinct phenomena and neither is related to typical careless treatment (like allowing scratches), so scratched surfaces should be another distinct case of ruining a CD. The "classic bronzing" was a particular chemical reaction, affecting only/mostly one or select manufacturing plants around 1990 (but many different labels) and might have also have to do with the ink used in printing booklets.
Whereas the pinprick holes "starry sky" deterioration is different and I am not sure about the causes of this.
And once again, because it is counterintuitive: The label side is in general more endangered because there is no comparably thick plastic layer like on the other side, so avoid scratches etc. on both sides! Temperate dry storage, no direct sunlight and avoiding scratches are the things one can take care of oneself. And check foam inlays of older multi-sets (same for LPs!) They are a plague as they can either crumble to smelly dust or stick to discs and the removal might destroy them.
For the "disc rot" the only option is to discover it earlyish, copy the disc and probably also remove the affected disc from its case and store separately as there might be a case of chemical reaction with booklet ink, or remove the booklet.
I agree on the "bronzing" effect being a different issue altogether.
I also agree with your advice because the CD is certainly not the indestructible item it was originally marketed as, particularly if one does not store or handle them correctly.
And yes, those foam inlays turned out to be a real horror show, particularly for vinyl.
Quote from: aligreto on October 12, 2022, 04:58:10 AM
I agree on the "bronzing" effect being a different issue altogether.
I also agree with your advice because the CD is certainly not the indestructible item it was originally marketed as, particularly if one does not store or handle them correctly.
And yes, those foam inlays turned out to be a real horror show, particularly for vinyl.
Agreed. Don't think my CD player is particularly forgiving as the odd disc is problematic with ticking noises which funnily enough is similar to noisy vinyl. I find I examine CDs with as much care as I do LP prior to purchase.