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The Music Room => Composer Discussion => Topic started by: snyprrr on February 18, 2010, 09:48:57 PM

Title: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: snyprrr on February 18, 2010, 09:48:57 PM
ok, I'm not really the one to start this. I'm interested in his mature SQ, and, perhaps by extension, the song cycle Notturno, which, everyone seems to think is da bomb of half lit Post Romantic Angsty Moodiness. I don't know? Would I like it? ???

Is there syph? ;D
Title: Re: Schoeck's Chateau
Post by: springrite on February 19, 2010, 03:27:34 AM
I love Schoeck's music. No time now. Suffice to say I love all the CDs I have of his music, from the songs (Nocturno, Der Sanger, and 4 or 5 more), the concerti and the quartets.
Title: Re: Schoeck's Chateau
Post by: The new erato on February 19, 2010, 03:57:50 AM
And the operas. And the song cycle Lebendig Begraben. Firstrate stuff!
Title: Re: Schoeck's Chateau
Post by: snyprrr on February 19, 2010, 10:51:16 AM
No time now.

If you get a minute, I would love your take on the SQs. Is the mature one a wild one?
Title: Re: Schoeck's Chateau
Post by: Luke on February 22, 2010, 03:23:58 AM
I love Schoeck's music. No time now. Suffice to say I love all the CDs I have of his music, from the songs (Nocturno, Der Sanger, and 4 or 5 more), the concerti and the quartets.

Ditto. Schoeck is a real love of mine - his style is so allusive and subtle, but so powerful and so much his own. I've never heard anything else remotely like it, barring perhaps, and fortuitously, a couple of moments in Liebeszauber by Rudi Stephan. Bracketing Schoeck's songs as plain old late-romantic lied along with those of Marx and Korngold et al, as is sometimes done, is really wrong, as he has so much more distinct and intruiging a musical personality than any of these - the last of the great lieder writers, really.

For me the breakthrough was the month in 1998 or 1999 when Gramophone made the CPO recording of Schoeck's faultless song-cycle-with-chamber-orchestra Elegie their disc of the month and chose to feature the song Herbstgefuhl 2 on their cover disc. It absolutely enraptured me, this simple and breathtaking song in which the autumn forest is compared to a dying man, and the orchestral line thickens and thins like gentle pulsing heartbeats, the voice intoning a typical Schoeck melodic line above, meditating on a few notes, a few intervals.... I can't think of a song in the entire canon of German lied which moves me like this one does, but the cycle as a whole is consistently good throughout. From that point on I was hooked and have amassed a nice little collection of Schoeck, about 15 discs I suppose now, mostly the songs, a couple of operas, concerti, not the quartets though, I'm afraid - to me, Schoeck is most himself in the lied form. The newish ECM Notturno disc is very fine indeed, maybe even better than the older Mertens recording I had already, though it's hard to tell precisely why - greater translucency in the quartet 'accompaniment' (inverted commas necessary, I think), more flexibility and variety in the voice. I'd recommend that and Schmidt's Elegie to anyone, for Schoeck at his most intense and finest.
Title: Re: Schoeck's Chateau
Post by: springrite on February 22, 2010, 04:11:30 AM
ok, I'm not really the one to start this. I'm interested in his mature SQ, and, perhaps by extension, the song cycle Notturno, which, everyone seems to think is da bomb of half lit Post Romantic Angsty Moodiness. I don't know? Would I like it? ???

Is there syph? ;D
Got a little time now, so I will expand a bit, though Luke really said it all beautifully.

What I want to add has to do with his chamber music and orchestral music, since obviously the place to start would be his songs (Notturno and Elegie first and foremost). When Scheock's violin concerto was universally praised after its premiere, Schoeck said "Well, but it has no words...", which tells you that in his mind, he only expresses himself fully and is at his best when it is vocal music. That comment from the composer himself may have contributed to the almost full neglect of his non-vocal music. But there are some absolute gems. First among these is his second quartet (he composed just two, plus a quartet movement which is like a student work). The first quartet is very well done, but simpler and more conventional. The 5 movement second quartet (from 1923 or 1925?) is complex, working with shorter motifs and voices gets distributed without any intrument really taking the obvious lead as in the first quartet. The five movements all have very different characters, which is another thing that's impressive to me.

Another wonderful chamber work that I only heard once on the radio but have not found in CD shops is the cello sonata. In terms of orchestral works, there is a NOVALIS CD that contain the violin concerto and the delightful Suite, Op 1, is very good as well. Somernacht is another orchestral work that I like.

I only have one of his operas, and have listened only once. So I will not make comment on it, except that after one listening to one opera, it seems clear to me that Scheock is at his best in the intimacies of songs rather than opera, although the opera is good.

So in conclusion, do start with the songs, but do not neglect the non-vocal gems! You will be glad that you discovered this great composer.
Title: Re: Schoeck's Chateau
Post by: snyprrr on February 22, 2010, 08:45:41 AM
I'm quite aroused :-[ after reading both your posts! ;D

How can't you be intrigued by someone who's calling cards are named Notturno and Elegie? And, I'm torn over which SQ to get, the MDG, or the Swiss label (w/ Schoeck No.2 & Brun No.4)?

The problem now is that I've totally generated absolute expectations of this music. I'm going to have to distance myself first, haha. Kind of like meeting a new girl, no? :-*
Title: Re: Schoeck's Chateau
Post by: Guido on February 23, 2010, 12:15:03 PM
Ditto. Schoeck is a real love of mine - his style is so allusive and subtle, but so powerful and so much his own. I've never heard anything else remotely like it, barring perhaps, and fortuitously, a couple of moments in Liebeszauber by Rudi Stephan. Bracketing Schoeck's songs as plain old late-romantic lied along with those of Marx and Korngold et al, as is sometimes done, is really wrong, as he has so much more distinct and intruiging a musical personality than any of these - the last of the great lieder writers, really.

For me the breakthrough was the month in 1998 or 1999 when Gramophone made the CPO recording of Schoeck's faultless song-cycle-with-chamber-orchestra Elegie their disc of the month and chose to feature the song Herbstgefuhl 2 on their cover disc. It absolutely enraptured me, this simple and breathtaking song in which the autumn forest is compared to a dying man, and the orchestral line thickens and thins like gentle pulsing heartbeats, the voice intoning a typical Schoeck melodic line above, meditating on a few notes, a few intervals.... I can't think of a song in the entire canon of German lied which moves me like this one does, but the cycle as a whole is consistently good throughout. From that point on I was hooked and have amassed a nice little collection of Schoeck, about 15 discs I suppose now, mostly the songs, a couple of operas, concerti, not the quartets though, I'm afraid - to me, Schoeck is most himself in the lied form. The newish ECM Notturno disc is very fine indeed, maybe even better than the older Mertens recording I had already, though it's hard to tell precisely why - greater translucency in the quartet 'accompaniment' (inverted commas necessary, I think), more flexibility and variety in the voice. I'd recommend that and Schmidt's Elegie to anyone, for Schoeck at his most intense and finest.

What he said. Elegie is staggering. Notturno is also very beautiful. Do you know Lebendig Begraben Luke?
Title: Re: Schoeck's Chateau
Post by: snyprrr on February 24, 2010, 09:54:39 PM
What he said. Elegie is staggering. Notturno is also very beautiful. Do you know Lebendig Begraben Luke?

Have you heard the cello music? There's a few albums.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: Luke on February 25, 2010, 04:51:32 AM
Your Finnissy thread got me sitting at the piano playing through my Finnissy collection, and now this one has me in a trance playing through the Elegie (in the piano reduction which used to be on IMSLP but is presently blocked). Lord but I love that piece. How he sustains the tone, with infinitely subtle variation, for so long, is just a miracle. It may be too much for some, I suppose - even I gave up after song 12 just now, had to take a break! But there's nothing else quite like it, and it's extraordinary.
Title: Re: Schoeck's Chateau
Post by: Scarpia on February 25, 2010, 08:57:44 PM
Ditto. Schoeck is a real love of mine - his style is so allusive and subtle, but so powerful and so much his own. I've never heard anything else remotely like it, barring perhaps, and fortuitously, a couple of moments in Liebeszauber by Rudi Stephan. Bracketing Schoeck's songs as plain old late-romantic lied along with those of Marx and Korngold et al, as is sometimes done, is really wrong, as he has so much more distinct and intruiging a musical personality than any of these - the last of the great lieder writers, really.

For me the breakthrough was the month in 1998 or 1999 when Gramophone made the CPO recording of Schoeck's faultless song-cycle-with-chamber-orchestra Elegie their disc of the month and chose to feature the song Herbstgefuhl 2 on their cover disc. It absolutely enraptured me, this simple and breathtaking song in which the autumn forest is compared to a dying man, and the orchestral line thickens and thins like gentle pulsing heartbeats, the voice intoning a typical Schoeck melodic line above, meditating on a few notes, a few intervals.... I can't think of a song in the entire canon of German lied which moves me like this one does, but the cycle as a whole is consistently good throughout. From that point on I was hooked and have amassed a nice little collection of Schoeck, about 15 discs I suppose now, mostly the songs, a couple of operas, concerti, not the quartets though, I'm afraid - to me, Schoeck is most himself in the lied form. The newish ECM Notturno disc is very fine indeed, maybe even better than the older Mertens recording I had already, though it's hard to tell precisely why - greater translucency in the quartet 'accompaniment' (inverted commas necessary, I think), more flexibility and variety in the voice. I'd recommend that and Schmidt's Elegie to anyone, for Schoeck at his most intense and finest.

I remember getting the CD on your recommendation perhaps 10 years ago, but have not managed to listen to it yet.   :-[
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: val on February 26, 2010, 02:30:10 AM
The Notturno is a very impressive work, based on splendid poems of Lenau. The 2nd movement is very strange - "Der Traum war so wild".

But to me, the masterpieces of Schoeck are the cycles of Lieder, Unter Sternen and Lebendig Begraben.

I only heard one of his operas, Penthesilea, very dramatic and expressionist.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: The new erato on February 26, 2010, 05:08:43 AM

But to me, the masterpieces of Schoeck are the cycles of Lieder, Unter Sternen and Lebendig Begraben.

For me too.

And the operas. And the song cycle Lebendig Begraben. Firstrate stuff!
Title: Re: Schoeck's Chateau
Post by: Guido on February 26, 2010, 10:08:28 AM
I remember getting the CD on your recommendation perhaps 10 years ago, but have not managed to listen to it yet.   :-[

!!!!

Listen to it. Tonight. You will not be disappointed. No. Excuses.
Title: Re: Schoeck's Chateau
Post by: Guido on February 26, 2010, 10:10:10 AM
Have you heard the cello music? There's a few albums.

I've heard the cello concerto which is far from his best (the much earlier violin concerto is marvelous though), and the cello sonata, his last piece is rather weak. The other cello pieces are all quite minor I think.
Title: Re: Schoeck's Chateau
Post by: Scarpia on February 26, 2010, 11:03:06 AM
!!!!

Listen to it. Tonight. You will not be disappointed. No. Excuses.

But I was going to listen to Janacek tonight!  :'(
Title: Re: Schoeck's Chateau
Post by: The new erato on February 26, 2010, 11:18:47 AM
But I was going to listen to Janacek tonight!  :'(
Well you can choose between House of the dead and Buried Alive. Gloomy prospects.
Title: Re: Schoeck's Chateau
Post by: Scarpia on February 26, 2010, 11:28:04 AM
Well you can choose between House of the dead and Buried Alive. Gloomy prospects.

The Cunning Little Vixen, less gloomy.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: snyprrr on March 07, 2010, 01:19:41 AM
I got the Elegie. CPO.



I'm not,... ready for it right now. ::)hmmm...lost in trans...

I'm supposed to instantly like this, no? I feel embarassed.



Is this similar to Faure's Horizon Chimerique?
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: Guido on March 07, 2010, 03:55:23 AM
Are these not the most gorgeous songs for baritone and orchestra ever? The infinite variety of colour and mood within the one general tone of the songs, the fragrant pulsating orchestration? Zweifelnder Wunsch and Herbstgefuhl 2 - these are the two pinnacles of the cycle in my estimation, but every one's a jewel.

Hope you grow to like it!
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: snyprrr on March 07, 2010, 07:59:11 PM
Are these not the most gorgeous songs for baritone and orchestra ever?

ok,... sure, when you put it like that! ;D

I certainly admit that Mr. S. has quite an impressive sound, and that the orchestration is the epitome of subtle tones. I think from growing up Classical Backwards, meaning, I heard (and loved) Pop Music first, so, I think I demand clear, strong melodies, and, you have to admit, the (and I'll say it) beautiful melodic flow of these pieces is very elusive.

Who is a Pop Music baritone? Barry White? I'm being serious!! I always wished there was a style for someone like Jeff Buckley for this kind of thing (yes, I'm being selfish, haha). But, who is a Popular baritone? (are they not all tenors and higher?)

Someone direct me to the correct thread, haha!

ps- I do like Shosty's No.13!
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: Guido on March 09, 2010, 05:28:45 AM
In pop music - men tend to sing in the highest part of their voice, and use falsetto alot. Female pop singers tend to use the lowest part of their voice - tend to stick below the centre of the treble clef. There are exceptions of course, but that is what they are.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: snyprrr on March 11, 2010, 10:03:42 AM
A) My mother likes Elegie!

B) I've just finished a virgin listen of Schoeck's mature C Major SQ of 1923. Apparently, he was first introduced to the Modern Composers that year at the ICSM (?), and the SQ shows a lot of the traits of early '20s composers such as Bartok, Szymanowski, and Bartok.

First off, with a Grave opening, I had expected a dark and gloomy, angst ridden, typically Germanic expressionism, a la Pfitzner's echt SQ No.2 (also mid '20s). But, pow!, Schoeck starts off in Happy Springland, and the SQ as a whole has that joyous, mountainous feel to it. In the livelier moments, it feels like Zemlinsky without the bitter sarcasm.

It is in five mvmts, with, as the notes put it, an "annoying" ticking (pizz) theme in the central Scherzo: Allegro. In a way, it outdoes Bartok's No.4's pizz mvmt (though, not in a Modern sense).

The Lento has a deep, elusive lyricism, and, as a whole, one can sense Schoeck's songlike archs. I'll admit I wasn't totally knocked off my chair by this music, but, that's probably because there is more waiting on further listening. Perhaps this is the Swissness of the music? All in all, this is one of the most joyous SQs this side of Janacek, but without all lot of the obviousness.

The group, the Amar Quartet (!), was allowed to use their name by some Hindemith Society, and, on this musiques-suisses.ch cd, along with Fritz Brun's SQ No.3, they aquite themselves with a thick, juicy tone in a perfectly, slightly drier acoustic that highlights the sheer, sumptuous plumpness of their ensemble. They all are using famous named Strads, and you can hear it!

If you're in the market for this material, I suggest this cd for the presentational contrast between these particular two SQs (as opposed to Schoeck's Complete Music for SQ on MDG (though, fine as I'm sure it is)). I think Brun is worth it, and, they, apparently, were "like brothers."
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: The new erato on March 11, 2010, 11:12:06 PM
Yeah - but 26 Swiss Francs for this disc + PP? Switzerland sure is expensive, but this borders on the insane.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: Guido on March 12, 2010, 02:52:25 AM
I'm not keen on the string quartets - they're a bit bland and lack basic inspiration even if Schoeck is a consumate craftsman.

They're available here for free:
http://www.avantgardeproject.org/agp113/index.htm

More Schoeck:
http://www.avantgardeproject.org/agp112/index.htm

http://www.avantgardeproject.org/agp114/index.htm
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: Guido on September 16, 2010, 07:31:03 AM
REALLY want to hear Massimilla Doni - does anyone here have it? Apparently it's like an even more rarefied and subtle Capriccio. (!) Why oh why, is it out of print?! Amazon sellers charge obscene amounts for it...


Oh to be a millionaire.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: mjwal on September 16, 2010, 11:17:14 AM
I must say that Elegie takes some getting used to/getting into - then it yields rewards, but it can seem all very rich and deliquescent and uneventful. The Notturno is a bit more dramatic, even Lebendig begraben has more in-your-face quality. Penthesilea is of course something else, tension screwed up to the max, eruptive, agonized. I have two recordings of that - the more recent recording with Yvonne Naef is a fantastic performance, but the conductor has made cuts and changes in a rather highhanded way, changing the instrumental balance etc. The other I have on LP w/Helga Dernesch is very fine too. In a way this is more radically expressionist than Elektra, and the play it is based on (cut and modified by Schoeck) one of the great masterpieces of European theatre that one really should read anyway. I also have Massimilla Doni, the libretto of which is not a masterpiece, but the opera does have very great qualities and an autumnal glow that reminds one a bit of Capriccio mixed with a whiff of decadence from the stews of Schreker city (it takes place in Venice, 1930). Though I am not a huge Fischer-Dieskau fan, the CD devoted to Schoeck lieder in the DG FiDi Edition has a very good selection of mainly early recordings by the great Panjandrum. I am waiting for a good opportunity to get Das holde Bescheiden - I wish there were another recording than the one with the very late FiDi. There is an intriguing Orfeo CD with a lieder compilation sung by Elizabeth Grümmer containing some songs from that collection - maybe I will go there first.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: Guido on September 16, 2010, 11:56:12 AM
I must say that Elegie takes some getting used to/getting into - then it yields rewards, but it can seem all very rich and deliquescent and uneventful. The Notturno is a bit more dramatic, even Lebendig begraben has more in-your-face quality. Penthesilea is of course something else, tension screwed up to the max, eruptive, agonized. I have two recordings of that - the more recent recording with Yvonne Naef is a fantastic performance, but the conductor has made cuts and changes in a rather highhanded way, changing the instrumental balance etc. The other I have on LP w/Helga Dernesch is very fine too. In a way this is more radically expressionist than Elektra, and the play it is based on (cut and modified by Schoeck) one of the great masterpieces of European theatre that one really should read anyway. I also have Massimilla Doni, the libretto of which is not a masterpiece, but the opera does have very great qualities and an autumnal glow that reminds one a bit of Capriccio mixed with a whiff of decadence from the stews of Schreker city (it takes place in Venice, 1930). Though I am not a huge Fischer-Dieskau fan, the CD devoted to Schoeck lieder in the DG FiDi Edition has a very good selection of mainly early recordings by the great Panjandrum. I am waiting for a good opportunity to get Das holde Bescheiden - I wish there were another recording than the one with the very late FiDi. There is an intriguing Orfeo CD with a lieder compilation sung by Elizabeth Grümmer containing some songs from that collection - maybe I will go there first.

Presumably you have Venus too - it's another very fine work, very beautiful, and with the most extraordinary orchestration and subtleties of harmony as always with Schoeck. And unlike Strauss in his "mythological/greek" operas (Elektra, Helena, Daphne, Danae) it's almost believable in terms of setting - there is something ancient and mysterious and appolonian about this score. The Penthesilea with Naef is hideously expensive now - I've only had the 1957 broadcast with Martha Modl up until now which is obviously a bit limited by the sound, but is still amazing. Just ordered Dernesch.

I adored Elegie the first time I heard it. As Luke has said before - those infinite shadings and subtleties of tone, all within one overarching mood - it's an extraordinary and almost unprecedented achievement (Silvestrov's Silent Songs share the lack of contrast, hushed tone, and sustained intensity of utterance though are quite different in effect). But Elegie is desert island stuff for me - as moving and wonderful as Strauss' Vier Letzte in its own way I think, though far softer and more understated of course - it sighs and soughs, glints and glimmers, where Strauss is all warmth and soaring radiance. For me Lebendig Begraben took longer to appreciate, but now I love it too of course. Notturno is great, but I like it less than these too, and I have Unter Sternen, Das Holde Bescheiden and the first opera Erwin and Elmire but have not yet had a chance to listen to them. The string quartets are a bit disappointing, as is the cello concerto, but the fairly early violin concerto is vernal and refulgent and everything you want a violin concerto from the teens of the last century to be. I also just found a few other miscellaneous songs on my PC that I have not yet heard.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: snyprrr on September 17, 2010, 07:17:16 PM
  refulgent

 :o
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: Guido on September 19, 2010, 10:33:08 AM
What do people think of Nachhall, the last of the song cycles with orchestra? (I'm not sure if its the absolutely last song cycle). It seems to be lacking in distinctive character, unlike the other voice/orchestra song cycles, and in general the quality does not seem to be as high as the others. Am I missing something?
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: Guido on September 22, 2010, 05:29:50 AM
Got the Dernesch Penthelesia - its so much more wonderful than I had realised from the 1957 recording - so many subtleties and beauties in the orchestration, harmony, timbres. All the singers are quite taxed by it (all parts sound excrutiatingly difficult), lots of quite damaged voices on show here too, but all are very committed, and the performance comes off very very well. My love of this composer continues to increase.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: MDL on September 22, 2010, 05:56:39 AM
Got the Dernesch Penthelesia - its so much more wonderful than I had realised from the 1957 recording - so many subtleties and beauties in the orchestration, harmony, timbres. All the singers are quite taxed by it (all parts sound excrutiatingly difficult), lots of quite damaged voices on show here too, but all are very committed, and the performance comes off very very well. My love of this composer continues to increase.

That's the only Schoeck CD in my collection, but it's a corker. The orchestration is extremely unusual and the whole thing packs quite a wallop. The other half is away this weekend, so I might dig this one out and annoy the neighbours.    :D I wish I had the libretto, though.

(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/orfeoc364941b.jpg)
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: mjwal on September 22, 2010, 06:22:19 AM
The Pan Classics issue with Naef has a libretto - much too long for me to copy, unfortunately, it would take hours and lots of ink/paper on the photocopier and our scanner is bust. There is a Maurice Sendak illustrated translation of Kleist's original - the libretto is basically a shorter version of that (Harper Collins). You owe it to yourselves to read the play, one of the great masterpieces in all dramatic literature.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: Guido on September 22, 2010, 07:12:23 AM
I had the german libretto included in the Darnesch recording that you have too.

Quote
There is a Maurice Sendak illustrated translation of Kleist's original - the libretto is basically a shorter version of that (Harper Collins). You owe it to yourselves to read the play, one of the great masterpieces in all dramatic literature.

I'll definitely bear this in mind - definitely want to delve deeper into this work.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: MDL on September 24, 2010, 12:51:35 PM
The Pan Classics issue with Naef has a libretto - much too long for me to copy, unfortunately, it would take hours and lots of ink/paper on the photocopier and our scanner is bust. There is a Maurice Sendak illustrated translation of Kleist's original - the libretto is basically a shorter version of that (Harper Collins). You owe it to yourselves to read the play, one of the great masterpieces in all dramatic literature.

It's been a while since I played my Orfeo copy of Penthesilea (and I was replying to this thread while I was away from my CD collection), so I stupidly and unforgivably forgot that the German libretto is actually included. There's no translation, but, hey, we've always got Google Translate to help us out with those bits we're completely stuck on.

It's almost 11pm, so perhaps I won't be terrifying my neighbours with this opera tonight, but I intend to reacquaint myself with it big time over the weekend.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: mjwal on September 25, 2010, 01:05:50 AM
Excuse the hysterical laughter echoing down the vectors of the www, but the idea of any translating machine making sense of Kleist's knotty syntax is too risible -  can you imagine the same done into modern English with the obscurest late Shakespeare you can find, or some of Ben Jonson's more classically inspired stuff? Who is going to make the software for this kind of job? It's a bit like trying to use your Write Your Own Pop Song CD-Rom to make a nice hummable version of the Große Fuge.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: MDL on September 25, 2010, 01:37:31 AM
Excuse the hysterical laughter echoing down the vectors of the www, but the idea of any translating machine making sense of Kleist's knotty syntax is too risible -  can you imagine the same done into modern English with the obscurest late Shakespeare you can find, or some of Ben Jonson's more classically inspired stuff? Who is going to make the software for this kind of job? It's a bit like trying to use your Write Your Own Pop Song CD-Rom to make a nice hummable version of the Große Fuge.

Ha! Obviously, I would never use Google Translate in the hope of coming up with an elegant, sophisticated reworking of the text, but my German is so crap, it can at least give me a hint of what's going on. At the moment, as far as I can tell, it might be an opera about a bunch of ladies buying shoes. (That's probably what Google will tell me they're saying, anyway.)
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: mjwal on September 25, 2010, 04:51:15 AM
http://bostonreview.net/BR24.1/dowden.html - quite a good summary.
Reading a real translation seems like a better alternative - what but a pile of syntactically disjointed words will Google produce? Below a bit I chose at random from the play with P speaking
O laß mich, Prothoe! O laß dies Herz
Zwei Augenblick in diesem Strom der Lust,
Wie ein besudelt Kind, sich untertauchen;
Mit jedem Schlag in seine üpp'gen Wellen
Wäscht sich ein Makel mir vom Busen weg.
Die Eumeniden fliehn, die schrecklichen,
Es weht, wie Nahn der Götter um mich her,
Ich möchte gleich in ihren Chor mich mischen,
Zum Tode war ich nie so reif als jetzt.
O let me, Prothoe! Oh, let this heart           O Prothoe, O let me be! O let
Two moment in this stream of pleasure,     This heart immerse itself  for two brief moments
Like a soiled child immerse himself;             In this stream of joy, like a dirty child;
With every stroke in his üpp'gen waves      With every thrust I make in its rampant waves
Washes a blemish on my breasts away.     My bosom is cleansed of an inner blemish.
The Eumenides flee the terrible,                  The Eumenides, the terrible ones, are fleeing,
It blows like the gods to come near me,      An airy motion like the approach of gods
I should like to mix in their choir me             Surrounds me and I would straight join their ranks,
To death, I was never so ripe than now.     Never have I been so ripe for death as now.
                                  OK, so you can figure something out from the Google "translation", which even has a crazy kind of poetry of its own. My tentative first attempt would need cleaning up. Maybe I'll do it this winter and put it on line.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: MDL on September 25, 2010, 05:23:26 AM
http://bostonreview.net/BR24.1/dowden.html - quite a good summary.
Reading a real translation seems like a better alternative - what but a pile of syntactically disjointed words will Google produce? Below a bit I chose at random from the play with P speaking
O laß mich, Prothoe! O laß dies Herz
Zwei Augenblick in diesem Strom der Lust,
Wie ein besudelt Kind, sich untertauchen;
Mit jedem Schlag in seine üpp'gen Wellen
Wäscht sich ein Makel mir vom Busen weg.
Die Eumeniden fliehn, die schrecklichen,
Es weht, wie Nahn der Götter um mich her,
Ich möchte gleich in ihren Chor mich mischen,
Zum Tode war ich nie so reif als jetzt.
O let me, Prothoe! Oh, let this heart           O Prothoe, no more of this! O let
Two moment in this stream of pleasure,     This heart immerse itself  for two brief moments
Like a soiled child immerse himself;             In this stream of joy, like a dirty child;
With every stroke in his üpp'gen waves      With every thrust I make in its rampant waves
Washes a blemish on my breasts away.     My bosom is cleansed of an inner blemish.
The Eumenides flee the terrible,                  The Eumenides, the terrible ones, are fleeing,
It blows like the gods to come near me,      An airy motion like the approach of gods
I should like to mix in their choir me             Surrounds me and I would straight join their ranks,
To death, I was never so ripe than now.     Never have I been so ripe for death as now.
                                  OK, so you can figure something out from the Google "translation", which even has a crazy kind of poetry of its own. My tentative first attempt would need cleaning up. Maybe I'll do it this winter and put it on line.

That would be very welcome. I occasionally stick famous English speeches into Google, translate them into, say, Chinese, and translate them back to see what comes out: "To be, or not to be" for example:


In order to survive, or do not is: this is a problem:
No matter what, however noble hearts subjected to
Slings and arrows of outrageous fate
Or to take arms against the sea of trouble,
Opposition and end? Die: to sleep;
Asleep; and by a sleep to say we end
Heart - thousands of acetylcholinesterase and natural shocks
Flesh is exposed, people of a successful
Religion is wish'd. To die, to sleep;
Sleep: perchance to dream: Well, there is a fatal;
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: Guido on September 25, 2010, 05:52:20 AM
There isn't a libretto database around like IMSLP is there? would be good to have one with public domain translations.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: MDL on September 25, 2010, 11:48:28 AM
There isn't a libretto database around like IMSLP is there? would be good to have one with public domain translations.

That's a good question. I'm always on the look-out for good libretto/translation sites. Any ideas, people?
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: mjwal on October 25, 2010, 11:50:15 AM
I suppose you all know this:
http://opera.stanford.edu/iu/librettim.html
No recent (post-Puccini) operas, of course.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: jlaurson on May 28, 2011, 01:07:43 PM

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/themes/fmblog/images/masthead/masthead_main.png)
Christian Gerhaher, Othmar Schoeck – A Love Story

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/O_Schoeck.png)
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=3151 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=3151)
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: Guido on May 28, 2011, 02:37:06 PM
Very interesting piece, and glad that there are other ardent admirers of this composer. I don't agree with the constant denigration of Elegie in the piece though (I personally prefer it to Notturno, and I am incredibly greatful to Luke for introducing me to it). Hadn't picked up on the Joyce connection before, but now it makes sense why Barber set that one poem from Lebendig Begraben.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: jlaurson on May 28, 2011, 02:58:44 PM
Very interesting piece, and glad that there are other ardent admirers of this composer. I don't agree with the constant denigration of Elegie in the piece though (I personally prefer it to Notturno, and I am incredibly greatful to Luke for introducing me to it). Hadn't picked up on the Joyce connection before, but now it makes sense why Barber set that one poem from Lebendig Begraben.

"Constant denigration" is a little exaggerated, I think...

Between myself ("Perhaps you know Schoeck’s Elegie, which might make the Swiss composer seem more like a pocket-sized Richard Strauss; Four-Last-Songs-au-miniature, with a shorter attention span and a sense of very amiable sameness. I like Elegie very much, but Notturno is a different caliber composition in every sense. Notturno pushes boundaries, while Elegie confirms them (from the safe side)." and Gerhaher ("it doesn’t quite manage to come across, I think. Well, I don’t cherish Elegie as much as Notturno at any rate.")

...I don't think either of us are denigrating it. I, for one, like it very, very much. In fact, it was my entry-piece into Schoeck. Perhaps "pocket-sized Richard Strauss" doesn't sound that great... but I happen to LOVE the Four Last Songs... so a version 'au miniature' is actually high praise in my book. If I could have found the damn disc, I would have included a sound sample from it, too... but it took me 7 hours just to remember where I had placed the ECM disc of Notturno. Argh.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: Guido on May 29, 2011, 01:02:02 AM
Haha, didn't realise it was by you! Should have guessed perhaps. I guess I just objected to the sense of Schoeck's smallness! "Shorter attention span" for instance - it's almost three times the length, and far less varied that the Vier Letzte, which to me means that it has a far greater overall attention span! Where you say "amiable sameness", I would be inclined to go for "unparalleled subtlety"!

I adore both Notturno and Elegie, but for me Elegie is the more amazing composition because of what it achieves - 24 songs, over the period of an hour, with infinitely variegated shades of the same basic emotional colour, never once boring, the orchestration and vocal line endlessly rapt, shimmering and sighing, the music of consistently inspired quality. Notturno strikes me as the more conventional piece in a strange way, unusual though it is.

Apart from the fact that they're both late romantics and rather "out of their time", I don't see the Strauss connection as strongly as you do; that is I don't think Schoeck is doing what Strauss is doing but just on a smaller scale. The four last songs are radiance in excelsis, the soaring eroticism of earlier soprano cantilenas here taking on a truly spiritual warmth, graceful, nostalgic, autumnal. At his heart though, Strauss is all sleaze and sentimentality, and only in his Indian Summer phase does he transcend this. Schoeck's Elegie certainly is nostalgic and autumnal, but it never soars in the same way - the searing eroticism of Strauss is here replaced with obsessively repeating, sadly sighing and completely inward utterance of an equally exquisite oder. Strauss' enormous phantasmagorical orchestra replaced by a softly breathing chamber ensemble, just as brilliant in its quiet way as Strauss virtuoso orchestration.

Incidentally which version of Elegie do you have? I much prefer the Andreas Schmidt CPO disc (in all ways).
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: Octave on April 05, 2013, 10:56:18 PM
I've heard the ECM recording of Schoeck's NOTTURNO, but how does the recording by the Carmina Quartet with Olaf Bär (Dal Segno) compare?  It seems that maybe the Carmina/Bär is several minutes shorter than the Rosamund/Gerhaher.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41wtfVK4ozL.jpg)

I am interested in the Dal Segno recording because it pairs the NOTTURNO with Szymanowski's two quartets and a little Webern (in fact, the Schoeck gets second billing), only because it's a generously filled disc and I don't know the Szym quartets.  There was some praise for the Carmina recordings of the Szymanowski over in that composer's thread (though not everyone was enthusiastic about the music itself), though it looks like the recordings were from a Denon disc w/o the Schoeck.  Is the Dal Segno a reissue of the Denon with Schoeck added?

Here is a brief comparison from Rob Barnett's Musicweb review of the ECM disc:
Quote
The only one I have encountered is the Dal Segno Bär. Bär lacks Gerhaher’s aureate qualities though he has more abrasion, protest and anger in his voice. The Dal Segno does not include texts and translations but where the ECM offers just Notturno Dal Segno include good versions of the two Szymanowskis and the Webern Langsamer Satz. However on this showing if Notturno and musicality is your priority then Gerhaher and ECM have the edge.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: mjwal on April 06, 2013, 03:11:05 AM
What about Fischer-Dieskau's Notturno with the Juilliard Qt? Anybody know it? I have it on LP - it doesn't seem to have been silvered.* Otherwise I only know the Tüller recording (not bad), as it is on YouTube. I confess I haven't listened to the FiDi LP for a long time - I'll have a go, one day soon. I agree with Guido that it's nothing at all like Strauss. At times the string quartet "accompaniment" makes me think of the Schoenberg of Verklärte Nacht crossed with a bit of French late-romantic. The vocal part is sometimes almost reminiscent of a non-existent singable version of Pierrot Lunaire, to my ears, with a sprinkling of Parsifal. I realise this is very subjective.
* I think I haven't mentioned the Schoeck disc in DG's FiDi Edition, which contains 33 Lieder based on poems by various German poets (a lot of Goethe and Hesse). Probably unavailable.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: snyprrr on April 06, 2013, 06:50:18 AM
I've heard the ECM recording of Schoeck's NOTTURNO, but how does the recording by the Carmina Quartet with Olaf Bär (Dal Segno) compare?  It seems that maybe the Carmina/Bär is several minutes shorter than the Rosamund/Gerhaher.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41wtfVK4ozL.jpg)

I am interested in the Dal Segno recording because it pairs the NOTTURNO with Szymanowski's two quartets and a little Webern (in fact, the Schoeck gets second billing), only because it's a generously filled disc and I don't know the Szym quartets.  There was some praise for the Carmina recordings of the Szymanowski over in that composer's thread (though not everyone was enthusiastic about the music itself), though it looks like the recordings were from a Denon disc w/o the Schoeck.  Is the Dal Segno a reissue of the Denon with Schoeck added?

Here is a brief comparison from Rob Barnett's Musicweb review of the ECM disc:

Don't the Camina/ Szymanowski recordings come from an old Denon(?) cd? Very good as I recall.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: The new erato on April 06, 2013, 08:18:45 AM
Don't the Camina/ Szymanowski recordings come from an old Denon(?) cd? Very good as I recall.
Yes they do. Got a great review in the Gramophone oce upon a time. I have them.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: Mirror Image on April 06, 2013, 05:39:57 PM
Love Schoeck's Cello Concerto. Check out the Poltera recording on BIS if you haven't already:

http://www.bis.se/index.php?op=album&aID=BIS-CD-1737

This recording also contains excellent performances of the Martin Cello Concerto and the Honegger Cello Concerto.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: Octave on April 06, 2013, 09:45:36 PM
Love Schoeck's Cello Concerto. Check out the Poltera recording on BIS if you haven't already:

http://www.bis.se/index.php?op=album&aID=BIS-CD-1737

This recording also contains excellent performances of the Martin Cello Concerto and the Honegger Cello Concerto.

Ah!  I was just going to ask/look (probably in that order: I yam what I yam) about a great recording of the Martin cello cto.  You answered two questions before they were asked.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: Mirror Image on April 06, 2013, 09:53:07 PM
Ah!  I was just going to ask/look (probably in that order: I yam what I yam) about a great recording of the Martin cello cto.  You answered two questions before they were asked.

Ah ha! :) An excellent recording, Octave. One for the collection for sure. All stellar performances. Poltera is a fantastic cellist and I may end up buying the rest of his recordings on BIS. He's a got a new Barber out that looks quite interesting.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 01, 2013, 08:41:31 PM
I have what I think is an alternative Bis release of a the Poltera Cello Concerto. It's coupled with Poltera's recording of the Cello Sonata and some songs arranged for cello and piano.

Abslutely gorgeous, these are late works (Concerto and Sonata anyway) and the mood is so autumnal you have to brush leaves off yourself every time you listen.

Must explore the songs.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: snyprrr on May 02, 2013, 04:59:23 AM
Love Schoeck's Cello Concerto. Check out the Poltera recording on BIS if you haven't already:

http://www.bis.se/index.php?op=album&aID=BIS-CD-1737

This recording also contains excellent performances of the Martin Cello Concerto and the Honegger Cello Concerto.

Wait... they culled the other cds and made one super awesome cd???? Awesome!
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: The new erato on May 02, 2013, 05:20:41 AM
Yes, there's 1 CD of each of those 3 composers' cello works (well worth having, I have them all) and a concatenated CD just containing the concertoes.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: San Antone on May 02, 2013, 05:33:29 AM
Wonderful composer!  The work that appeals to me the most is Elegie - the orchestration for the chamber ensemble is finely well-wrought.  This recording is the one I've heard (don't know if it has been mentioned yet) and I found it to be goosebump producing.



 :)
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: jlaurson on May 02, 2013, 05:43:32 AM
Wonderful composer!  The work that appeals to me the most is Elegie - the orchestration for the chamber ensemble is finely well-wrought.  This recording is the one I've heard (don't know if it has been mentioned yet) and I found it to be goosebump producing.


Mertens is terrific, both in Elegie (the SACD you picture is a re-issue of an earlier release) and Nocturno. Yumm. But the other song cycles - the ones Dieskau recorded - are amazing, too, and should be re-introduced into the ... well, if not the repertoire, than at least into semi-obscurity from current near-obscurity.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: The new erato on May 02, 2013, 06:29:40 AM
Mertens is terrific, both in Elegie (the SACD you picture is a re-issue of an earlier release) and Nocturno. Yumm. But the other song cycles - the ones Dieskau recorded - are amazing, too, and should be re-introduced into the ... well, if not the repertoire, than at least into semi-obscurity from current near-obscurity.
I have the Claves discs, and I find them in some ways more interesting than Elegie and Notturno.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: Mirror Image on May 06, 2013, 10:27:43 AM
Wait... they culled the other cds and made one super awesome cd???? Awesome!

Yes, totally awesome. 8)
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: snyprrr on May 06, 2013, 12:37:23 PM
Yes, totally awesome. 8)

Totally! ;)
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: jlaurson on May 19, 2014, 08:31:05 AM

Christopher Maltman: Truly, truly, truly a Masterpiece.


(http://konzerthaus.at/magazin/Portals/0/blog_data/Magazine%202014/Maltman_Christopher_10sw_Jaen13_(c)Pia-Clodi_560.jpg) (http://konzerthaus.at/magazin/Home/tabid/41/entryid/352/Christopher-Maltman-Truly-truly-truly-a-Masterpiece.aspx)

Quote
Monday, April 7th, Christopher Maltman took a couple minutes just hours before his recital at the Mozart-Saal to chat about the great, elusive, «Notturno» by Othmar Schoeck:

C.M.:   How do you know the Schoeck «Notturno»?

jfl:       I know it from Klaus Mertens’ recording which was one of the... well, it wasn’t the first recording. The first one, I think, was Fischer-Dieskau with the Cherubini Quartet, and I’m not sure if it ever made it unto CD. [It had, actually, and copies are hard, but not impossible, to find]

So it was it recorded for vinyl and was never digitally mastered or came back out again? I looked for it, because I was certain that Fischer-Dieskau would have recorded it. But I couldn’t find it anywhere and then I looked on some websites and godknowswhat and I saw that he had recorded it but couldn’t find a copy to listen to. Which is a bit sad.

But there is of course the Mertens recording, a gorgeous new one with Stephan Genz and the Leipziger Streichquartett and the Gerhaher recording...

That’s the one I listened to, actually. Which is beautiful.

It’s great... except the Rosamunde Quartet lets him down a bit.But it was him that I first talked about the «Notturno» with at length, well before he knew he’d get a chance of recording it...

Yes, it’s not easy to do the piece. It was only when this opportunity at the Konzerthaus was presented to me, where they as much as said: “Look, what would you like to do.” And I said: “I would like to do the Schoeck «Notturno».” And they looked at me and said: “OK – what’s that?” So I said: “Well, it’s a fantastic song cycle for low voice and string quartet.” But fortunately they gave me sort of carte blanche to decide what I wanted to do. And it’s so hard to get opportunities like that. It’s so hard to get concerts like this. They come up, for me, once every two or three years. And I really am so pleased that I had got the opportunity to do this piece. Because the more I worked on it and the more looked at it and the more I got inside it, I think it’s absolutely Schoeck’s best composition. It’s a towering piece of music.

[The backstage dummy alarm rings]
Oh my Lord, what noise is that?...

Full interview here: http://konzerthaus.at/magazin/Home/tabid/41/entryid/352/Christopher-Maltman-Truly-truly-truly-a-Masterpiece.aspx (http://konzerthaus.at/magazin/Home/tabid/41/entryid/352/Christopher-Maltman-Truly-truly-truly-a-Masterpiece.aspx)
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: San Antone on April 23, 2015, 02:41:40 AM
* * * bump * * *

December 2014 release of his choral music and lieder,

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-vK5-rr0L._SS380.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Othmar-Schoeck-Postillon-Lieder-Chorwerke/dp/B00QQU4Q7Q/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1429789057&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=Othmar+Schoeck+der+postillon)

There was this earlier recording of the choral music

Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: San Antone on September 01, 2015, 03:53:13 AM
Today I sing of Othmar Schoeck (https://musicakaleidoscope.wordpress.com/2015/09/01/today-i-sing-of-othmar-schoeck/) (1 September 1886 – 8 March 1957)

(http://www.universaledition.com/system/html/schoeck_c_universal%20edition-bf190dfc.jpg)

Two of his song cycles stand out, Elegie op. 36 for baritone and chamber orchestra was developed between 1921 and 1923 and was Schoeck’s first song cycle, summarizing 24 poems of Nikolaus Lenau and Joseph von Echiendorff. 



Notturno, op. 47, his 45-minute work for low voice and string quartet or string orchestra.   Schoeck set to music poems of mourning, loneliness and despair by Nikolaus Lenau, as well as a fragment by Gottfried Keller. Schoeck chose the title Notturno for a reason: it matches the dark underlying character of the music which, with or without vocal parts (the first, extended movement has a long instrumental part), expresses the pain, the lamentation and the resignation of the narrator in a late-romantic style.



Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment _ some bio info .....
Post by: Scion7 on September 01, 2015, 05:02:26 AM
Although a firm believer in Swiss democracy, Schoeck’s increasingly conservative aesthetic endeared him to the cultural administrators of the Third Reich. From 1933 onwards, there was a surge of German interest in his music. Flattered by his success and mindful of the consequences of distancing himself openly from the Nazis, Schoeck accepted the politically-tainted Erwin von Steinbach Prize of Freiburg University in 1937 and allowed the première of his last opera, Das Schloss Dürande (1937–41), to be performed at the Berlin Staatsoper (1943). The librettist, Hermann Burte, although a gifted poet, was a novice librettist and a known Nazi sympathizer. Although the quality of the first performance was high (as the recorded excerpts make clear) and the audience enthusiastic, Hermann Goering denounced the libretto as ‘manure’ shortly thereafter. The run was stopped prematurely based on an explanation that the cast suddenly had ‘other engagements’. The Zürich première that followed two months later failed miserably. Having allowed the first performance to take place in the capital city of a potential enemy power, Schoeck was regarded as a traitor by many of his fellow Swiss. He fell into a deep depression and was unable to compose for months. On 9 March 1944 he suffered a heart attack from which he never fully recovered.  - from the New Grove
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: The new erato on September 01, 2015, 05:22:38 AM
I have this:

(http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/500/92107199/Schoeck+Venus+cover.png)

Anybody else have it?

And I find FiDis "Lebendig Begraben" far stronger than Notturno and Elegie mentioned above (though the Elegie in the cpo recording). Is is the work or the performance; I cannot decide?
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: jlaurson on September 01, 2015, 05:52:41 AM
I have this:

(http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/500/92107199/Schoeck+Venus+cover.png)

Anybody else have it?

And I find FiDis "Lebendig Begraben" far stronger than Notturno and Elegie mentioned above (though the Elegie in the cpo recording). Is is the work or the performance; I cannot decide?

now there's some Schoeck that I don't have. Shoecking!

I can see how Lebendig Begraben would be thought higher of, than Elegie... which might arguably be slight (too pretty... not substantial enough... certainly not exploring its boundaries to the fullest), but Notturno? Tougher though that work is, I think it is also superior and might in fact be Schoeck's best. Which Notturno have you got?
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: San Antone on September 01, 2015, 05:59:54 AM
I have this:

(http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/500/92107199/Schoeck+Venus+cover.png)

Anybody else have it?

And I find FiDis "Lebendig Begraben" far stronger than Notturno and Elegie mentioned above (though the Elegie in the cpo recording). Is is the work or the performance; I cannot decide?

I have not listened to either of those works, but will no doubt hunt down recordings and do so today or this week.  Is this the recording you mention?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91jlBekldDL._SX355_.jpg)

I am still discovering Schoeck's music but everything I've heard so far I consider very fine.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: ritter on September 01, 2015, 07:08:15 AM
That recording of Schoeck's Venus is one of those  whcih I've been on the brink of buying several times, but still haven't. I've read that it is a rther intersting piece...

Then there's this other large-scale opera, which I have fond memories of and am revisiting as I write...there's a very attractive automnal atmosphere to the whole piece...

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000245E4.01.L.jpg)
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: San Antone on September 01, 2015, 07:26:11 AM
That recording of Schoeck's Venus is one of those  whcih I've been on the brink of buying several times, but still haven't. I've read that it is a rther intersting piece...

Then there's this other large-scale opera, which I have fond memories of and am revisiting as I write...there's a very attractive automnal atmosphere to the whole piece...

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000245E4.01.L.jpg)

If you have Spotify, all 11 volumes of the lieder are there, as well as Venus and a couple of other operas.  The late song cycles I think are exceptional.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: ritter on September 01, 2015, 07:42:42 AM
If you have Spotify, all 11 volumes of the lieder are there, as well as Venus and a couple of other operas.  The late song cycles I think are exceptional.
Thanks for that, sanantonio. I don't use spotify, but have spotted  ;) copies of Venus at on-line retailers at decent prices, so  might go for it.

As we discussed some months ago, I find Elegie overlong and monotonous, but with some impressive moments The other Schoeck in my collection is Lebendig begraben (the FiDi recording mentioned above) and Penthesilea (live from Salzburg on Orfeo) , which I haven't listened to in years... :-[
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: The new erato on September 01, 2015, 08:27:06 AM
I have not listened to either of those works, but will no doubt hunt down recordings and do so today or this week.  Is this the recording you mention?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91jlBekldDL._SX355_.jpg)

I am still discovering Schoeck's music but everything I've heard so far I consider very fine.
Yes that's it.

And it's the Gerhaher Notturno I have. Perhaps a relisten is in order.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: jlaurson on September 01, 2015, 09:59:10 AM
Yes that's it.

And it's the Gerhaher Notturno I have. Perhaps a relisten is in order.

Gerhaher the best there can be for Notturno... alas, the Rosamunde Quartet lets him down. I find that Stephane Genz & Leipzig SQ4t are ultimately still more satisfying.

Here are a few links that you might find interesting:

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/best-recordings-of-2009-2.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/best-recordings-of-2009-2.html) [ECM Release]
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/01/best-recordings-of-2013-4.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/01/best-recordings-of-2013-4.html) [MDG Release]
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/06/christian-gerhaher-othmar-schoeck-love.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/06/christian-gerhaher-othmar-schoeck-love.html) Gerhaher on Schoeck
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/05/christopher-maltman-truly-truly-truly.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/05/christopher-maltman-truly-truly-truly.html) Maltman on Notturno
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: San Antone on September 01, 2015, 10:16:49 AM
Gerhaher the best there can be for Notturno... alas, the Rosamunde Quartet lets him down. I find that Stephane Genz & Leipzig SQ4t are ultimately still more satisfying.

Here are a few links that you might find interesting:

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/best-recordings-of-2009-2.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/best-recordings-of-2009-2.html) [ECM Release]
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/01/best-recordings-of-2013-4.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/01/best-recordings-of-2013-4.html) [MDG Release]
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/06/christian-gerhaher-othmar-schoeck-love.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/06/christian-gerhaher-othmar-schoeck-love.html) Gerhaher on Schoeck
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/05/christopher-maltman-truly-truly-truly.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/05/christopher-maltman-truly-truly-truly.html) Maltman on Notturno

I have had that MDG recording in my shopping cart; I guess I should go for it.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: jlaurson on August 14, 2016, 08:24:29 AM


Classical CD Of The Week: Schoecking Beauty From Switzerland

(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2016/08/Forbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_Schoeck-Sommernacht-Venzago_Musiques-Suisses_Jens-f-Laurson-1200-1200x469.jpg) (http://bit.ly/CDoftheWeek024)

Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on May 26, 2018, 02:21:01 PM
This is something I've long wanted to do, and of course it took several OTHER projects that I should be working on right now for me to finally do that, namely the cleaning, updating, and generally sprucing-up of the Recommended Recordings Sections of the Surprised By Beauty website.

I've started with my favorite-among-favorites, Othmar Schoeck:


Othmar Schoeck - Recommended Recordings
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DeKJz3JWAAA-MIT.jpg)
https://surprisedbybeautyorg.wordpress.com/2017/01/07/othmar-schoeck-recommended-recordings/
 (https://surprisedbybeautyorg.wordpress.com/2017/01/07/othmar-schoeck-recommended-recordings/)
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: kyjo on May 26, 2018, 06:57:54 PM
Schoeck's Sommernacht for string orchestra is a really beautiful work and one of my favorite works for the medium. Schoeck's ability to conjure up such magical tone-painting from string instruments alone is quite remarkable.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: snyprrr on May 27, 2018, 05:32:31 AM
Again, he has an SQ Masterpiece
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on February 18, 2019, 12:27:43 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DzrFtvWWkAELo0g.jpg)

“Manntje, Manntje, Timpe Te / Buttje, Buttje inne See / myne Fru de Ilsebill / will nich so, as ik wol will”

Latest on @ClassicsToday: "The Fisherman and His Wife: Othmar Schoeck’s Fine Dramatic Fairytale Cantata"

 #OthmarSchoeck (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/the-fisherman-and-his-wife-othmar-schoecks-fine-dramatic-fairytale-cantata/)
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: SymphonicAddict on February 19, 2019, 01:31:38 PM
Schoeck's Sommernacht for string orchestra is a really beautiful work and one of my favorite works for the medium. Schoeck's ability to conjure up such magical tone-painting from string instruments alone is quite remarkable.

Yes, indeed! Really exquisite and sensual weave of notes. I really like it, and it's good to try other Swiss composers like Honegger, Martin, and Andreae, Hermann, Brun, Bloch, Gerber, Flury (some riveting 1st Symphony there!), and Raff, why not.

Worth mentioning are the Cello concerto. Penthesilea and Venus look like two ultra-romantic operas, a sonorities wallow.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: San Antone on February 19, 2019, 01:49:17 PM
Yes, indeed! Really exquisite and sensual weave of notes. I really like it, and it's good to try other Swiss composers like Honegger, Martin, and Andreae, Hermann, Brun, Bloch, Gerber, Flury (some riveting 1st Symphony there!), and Raff, why not.

Worth mentioning are the Cello concerto. Penthesilea and Venus look like two ultra-romantic operas, a sonorities wallow.

Sommernacht is wonderful, as are Elegie, op. 36 (song cycle for baritone and chamber orchestra), and Notturno (song cycle for baritone and string quartet).  But also don't overlook the piano/vocal lieder: over 300 songs.  There is a complete set of recordings, the Jecklin Edition.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: SymphonicAddict on February 21, 2019, 04:55:30 PM
Sommernacht is wonderful, as are Elegie, op. 36 (song cycle for baritone and chamber orchestra), and Notturno (song cycle for baritone and string quartet).  But also don't overlook the piano/vocal lieder: over 300 songs.  There is a complete set of recordings, the Jecklin Edition.

Interesting suggestions. Thank you.

I don't consider myself a big fan of Lieder/songs, but lately I've come to appreciate them more and more, and Schoeck appears a very promising composer about it.
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: André on October 08, 2020, 07:57:01 AM
This is something I've long wanted to do, and of course it took several OTHER projects that I should be working on right now for me to finally do that, namely the cleaning, updating, and generally sprucing-up of the Recommended Recordings Sections of the Surprised By Beauty website.

I've started with my favorite-among-favorites, Othmar Schoeck:


Othmar Schoeck - Recommended Recordings
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DeKJz3JWAAA-MIT.jpg)
https://surprisedbybeautyorg.wordpress.com/2017/01/07/othmar-schoeck-recommended-recordings/
 (https://surprisedbybeautyorg.wordpress.com/2017/01/07/othmar-schoeck-recommended-recordings/)

Very informative, thanks Jens!

Between Schoeck, Schreker and Pfitzner I tread slowly, trying to find music - and recordings - that will stand the test of time (deep seated appreciation vs passing infatuation).
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 15, 2020, 02:24:05 AM
Very informative, thanks Jens!

Between Schoeck, Schreker and Pfitzner I tread slowly, trying to find music - and recordings - that will stand the test of time (deep seated appreciation vs passing infatuation).

Thank you! I'm v. happy if any of this helps anyone else discovering - slowly - some unforeseen beauties!
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on February 22, 2021, 06:30:02 AM

Schoeck: Buried Alive, Exhumed

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EugTd0cXAAE5Nf8?format=jpg&name=small) (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EugTd0cXAAE5Nf8?format=jpg&name=small)

Reading Chris Walton’s biography of Othmar Schoeck is a fascinating trip into a different time, just a
century ago. But it’s also an object lesson in “never meet your heroes”. Although sympathetically
portrayed, Walton does not flinch from the fact that Schoeck was a real piece of work...
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: André on February 22, 2021, 06:38:04 AM
I just received the Denon disc with Notturno

(https://img.discogs.com/6TsFLRa58VrqbCq-tKEVdUGgKFk=/fit-in/600x551/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-17272663-1612549471-5855.png.jpg)

I was surprised to see there’s half a dozen recordings to choose from. Hopefully this will provide satisfaction.

A word about the work, Jens ? I always read your comments with keen interest  :)
Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on February 22, 2021, 06:42:34 AM
I just received the Denon disc with Notturno

(https://img.discogs.com/6TsFLRa58VrqbCq-tKEVdUGgKFk=/fit-in/600x551/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-17272663-1612549471-5855.png.jpg)

I was surprised to see there’s half a dozen recordings to choose from. Hopefully this will provide satisfaction.

A word about the work, Jens ? I always read your comments with keen interest  :)


A word? Do you have an hour? :-)

https://avemariaradio.net/oldsite/audio-archive/church-and-culture-july-28-2018-hour-1/

...and many more written ones, here: https://ionarts.blogspot.com/search/label/Othmar%20Schoeck (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/search/label/Othmar%20Schoeck)

Title: Re: Schoeck Treatment
Post by: André on February 22, 2021, 07:36:36 AM
Goody, thanks !  :)