Ottevanger's Omphaloskeptic Outpost

[Cato]

Wow, wonderful to see you Guido! That's made my day (checks clock and sees that we're only ten minutes into the day, but you know what I mean!).

I've not been here much myself for the last few months, things have been bad with Philippa's health and with the care she needs I've not really had time for much online activity. But she'll get better, which is the main thing, and then I will be about more again. I hope you return.

Greetings Luke!

Thanks for visiting GMG!  We all hope that your wife becomes healthy again very soon!

April for the publication of your book!  Excellent!

I have finished Book I of my new novel about characters surviving in the Danube frontier of the Roman Empire c. A.D. 430-460.  And I believe I told you about the completion of my trilogy about the curious Professor Admee (From the Caves of the Cloud, From the Temples of the Cloud, From the Deserts of the Cloud).

Health issues of a family member (my sister, dying slowly of three kinds of cancer) have also affected how much time I have for things outside of traveling to her and dealing with her estate.  You see, her husband cannot do much, for he is also dying slowly, but from five kinds of cancer! 

So, I think of Music quite often, but the time and opportunities for concentrating on something are not yet available.

I still consider you to be one of England's top composers alive today!

Best Wishes!

[Karl Henning]

And I believe I told you about the completion of my trilogy about the curious Professor Admee

I'm a fan of the irascible Professor!

[Cato]

Hello LUKE!!! 




Could you hear that?!   

Let us know how things are going with your book and music!

Happy New Year and we hope you had a Merry Christmas!

😇

[Luke]

Hi Leo - and everyone else! I'm sorry not to have been around much - the reason is as it was before i.e. my wife's condition, which has not improved and which requires most of my time and which makes me rather unpindownable. I didn't even see this message until this evening.

The book is all go ahead - a little miscommunication between my editor and me has put it back to June (and maybe later) but it is at least listed on Amazon now...

https://www.amazon.com/Sound-Place-Personal-Britains-Inspiring/dp/1915023181

...albeit with my name misspelt and a horrible subtitle which doesn't represent the book at all. Both have now been corrected, but apparently it takes a little time for 'the bots' to sort it all out. We'll see.

Nothing composed for far too many years (although at least I got a book out of my compositional block      ) but I think maybe I should try for an Extremely Long Piano Composition. There was one I had in my plans all those years ago, maybe I should dust it down... 

[Karl Henning]

but I think maybe I should try for an Extremely Long Piano Composition. There was one I had in my plans all those years ago, maybe I should dust it down.

Cool! Maybe 'tis time.

[Cato]

Hi Leo - and everyone else! I'm sorry not to have been around much - the reason is as it was before i.e. my wife's condition, which has not improved and which requires most of my time and which makes me rather unpindownable. I didn't even see this message until this evening.

The book is all go ahead - a little miscommunication between my editor and me has put it back to June (and maybe later) but it is at least listed on Amazon now...

https://www.amazon.com/Sound-Place-Personal-Britains-Inspiring/dp/1915023181

...albeit with my name misspelt and a horrible subtitle which doesn't represent the book at all. Both have now been corrected, but apparently it takes a little time for 'the bots' to sort it all out. We'll see.

Nothing composed for far too many years (although at least I got a book out of my compositional block      ) but I think maybe I should try for an Extremely Long Piano Composition. There was one I had in my plans all those years ago, maybe I should dust it down... 

Best Wishes to you and your wife, and we will remember both of you in our prayers!

And another YES to Luke Ottevanger's latest opus, The Extremely Long Piano Composition! 

[Luke]

I'm enjoying musing on those questions, mind you. I don't think a locking is necessary, though I'd love to discuss examples of these monster works in musical detail some more. As a composer (which once upon a time I thought I was) miniatures came relatively easily to me, but I never managed a convincing piece that was more than about 10 minutes.* This thread has got me thinking about trying to attempt something much larger, and I was even writing down some tentative (verbal) ideas today. So I've enjoyed it so far.


*I had a plan for one but it never came to anything - it's still sitting on my piano, yellow with age and pencil faded...

This - which I just posted on the Extremely Long Thread About Extremely Long Piano Pieces - What Is The Point? thread - is relevant here too, I suppose.

But will it come to anything? Doubt it...

[Florestan]

will it come to anything? Doubt it...

When you start composing, do you usually have in mind an approximate duration of the piece or is it something that comes along writing it? (I don't mean this particular piece you envisage, but in general).

[Luke]

When you start composing, do you usually have in mind an approximate duration of the piece or is it something that comes along writing it? (I don't mean this particular piece you envisage, but in general).

That's a really interesting question. I cannot recall ever writing something where I was unsure of its endpoint both in terms of how it would end and when. I always knew the miniatures would end up that way - and they're a large part of what I've written. And with larger works - e.g. orchestral ones - they've been planned from the start with an overall duration and the duration of the various subsections in mind - not to the second or even the minute, of course, but in general. It's almost more about 'weighing the music in my mind, though, seeing how it feels, how it balances, which is not quite the same thing as counting bars but to which duration is certainly connected.

But then, I suppose, I have fallen into a trap that has been briefly mentioned on your Extremely Long Piano Piece thread - that is the trap of writing pieces of a kind of 'stock' duration. My largest orchestral pieces have been 18-20 minutes; others fall into the 12/14 minute range. These are rather standard limits for single movement works, the sort we see over and over, sometimes stretching towards 30 minutes but not often beyond that. As accustomed listeners to classical music it seems that we 'think' in 30 minute blocks, both as listeners and composers. It's a way of listening that Feldman noted and was experimenting with in his late longer form pieces - that's what someone pointed out on your thread. Writing those longer pieces requires a totally different discipline from the composer and from the listener (I'm not necessarily talking about Sorabji-scale, but even just for a piece that is e.g. an hour long).

Sorry, a bit rushed, I should be working!

[Florestan]

Very interesting, thanks.

I cannot recall ever writing something where I was unsure of its endpoint both in terms of how it would end and when. I always knew the miniatures would end up that way - and they're a large part of what I've written. And with larger works - e.g. orchestral ones - they've been planned from the start with an overall duration and the duration of the various subsections in mind - not to the second or even the minute, of course, but in general. It's almost more about 'weighing the music in my mind, though, seeing how it feels, how it balances, which is not quite the same thing as counting bars but to which duration is certainly connected.

Has it ever happened to you that the final piece be shorter / longer than initially planned? I mean, not by a minute or two, but by, say, ten?

Generally, is there a strict logic contained in the building blocks of a piece (like, themes, melodies, motifs and such) which dictates its approximate duration, or can it be shortened or lengthened ad libitum as you see fit on the spot, irrespective of what you planned initially?

As accustomed listeners to classical music it seems that we 'think' in 30 minute blocks, both as listeners and composers.

Indeed and it's probably derived from the days when the public concert in the typical format overture-concerto-symphony was the only way to hear such works.

[Luke]

Very interesting, thanks.

Has it ever happened to you that the final piece be shorter / longer than initially planned? I mean, not by a minute or two, but by, say, ten?

I'm sure it happens to other people but it hasn't happened to me. I think the length of the piece probably depends on how I am feeling wrt my composing, and in general as I am quite a tentative person, I tend not to want to force anything.* I often just want to bring an idea into the open, let it live for a while and then quietly put it away, and so the way I treat the material ensures that happens. Composing larger works requires a completely different mindset, as well as a strong and predetermined formal scheme and an intent to push material around in a more master-slave relationship (as it were) - to develop it, to take it on a long journey. I have done that, and I like to think I have done it well (I don't tend to follow formal models but to develop my own for each piece) but that requires a degree of separation between me and the music that I can't always manage, and it also requires more time and space for the development of the ideas than I find I can easily give. The longest pieces require the most control, craft and steely logic if they are hold together and make any musical sense, and that's tough. All of this is why, on the other thread, I said that for me composing miniatures comes more easily.  And that's why the challenge of doing something very long for the piano interests me - to see if I can (so thanks for the prompt!) (I am not imagining Sorabjian lengths, but something a bit outlandish nevertheless.)

Generally, is there a strict logic contained in the building blocks of a piece (like, themes, melodies, motifs and such) which dictates its approximate duration, or can it be shortened or lengthened ad libitum as you see fit on the spot, irrespective of what you planned initially?

As I say, I think I already have in mind/my own mood the sense of whether I going short or long, and then without too much thought I treat the musical material in way that seems appropriate to that mental image. I am sure that more (durationally) could be made of the same material if I decided to treat it differently. Maybe I should try expanding one of my smaller pieces into something larger!

Indeed and it's probably derived from the days when the public concert in the typical format overture-concerto-symphony was the only way to hear such works.

Yes - and, perhaps reinforced later, especially wrt contemporary works, when 30 minutes was the maximum you could fit on an LP side! (Same theory as concentration spans beginning to shrink with the introduction of the 3 minute pop song = one side of a 78!)

* this is all a bit academic anyway as I haven't written anything for far too long!

[Luke]

...it also requires more time and space for the development of the ideas than I find I can easily give....

To expand on this - a bit of self-critique! - I am (or was) often like a kid with a bag of sweets when a new idea comes to me, and I can't resist working on it perhaps too soon. I'm not good at letting ideas grow and mature, I want to feel them out straight away.

[Florestan]

Most interesting presentation of your compositional process, Luke, thanks. I'm sure that doing something much longer than usual is a challenge you will successfully meet. Good luck with it and let us know how it progress (if you are so inclined, of course).

Btw, is there any possibility to hear your music? A website or something?

[Florestan]

To expand on this - a bit of self-critique! - I am (or was) often like a kid with a bag of sweets when a new idea comes to me, and I can't resist working on it perhaps too soon. I'm not good at letting ideas grow and mature, I want to feel them out straight away.

But you can always revise and tweak the final product if you're not quite satisfied, isn't it? Or are you of the principle that revision tends to make things worse, not better? Both types of philosophy are widely spread among composers.

[Luke]

No, I tweak. But it will be details, not fundamentals.

[Luke]

Btw, is there any possibility to hear your music? A website or something?

I'll see if I can get some links up later on. Thanks for the interest! 

[Luke]

https://www.mediafire.com/folder/z853mpz2e3oce/Luke+Ottevanger+selected+compositions

I hope this link works. I'm not a great uploader and I'm not sure how permanent the link will be!

I've made a small selection of my pieces - those that have decent* enough recordings to be able to hear what's going on throughout. Though some of the orchestral pieces have been played, the recordings are not good enough all the way through, in my opinion, to put here again, even though parts of them are OK. So most of what is here is for solo piano, with me at the keyboard. Though the language varies from children's pieces to more experimental stuff, I hope they're all of a piece, too - different places on the same sliding scale.

Then there are a few for the girls at one of my schools, plus me at the piano again. They're not highly tutored singers, but they do their best! These ones can be found in the Christmas Music folder.

You'll see that the oldest piece, a tiny fragile thing, is from 1990, when I was 14, but mostly they're from the first decade of the century. Nothing since 2011 - and therein lies a tale of compositional block which I partly tell in the book.

*They're not decent. None of them are. I've never had access to good enough equipment or recording venues - these are all done in echoey classrooms or churches and on pianos of varying dubiousness! Sorry!

[Luke]

Forgot to say - for those interested, the scores to the pieces are all contained in the folder too. If not separately within the relevant subfolders then in the 'compilation' PDFs that contain whole groups of works - collected piano miniatures; sonatas; various Christmassy things for my pupils to sing in church

[Florestan]

https://www.mediafire.com/folder/z853mpz2e3oce/Luke+Ottevanger+selected+compositions

Thanks a lot!

Been listening to the three piano sonatas so far. I love their mysterious, meditative and haunting atmosphere, which reminded me of Debussy and Scriabin. The sound might not be great but the music certainly is.

[Luke]

Thank you very much - that's very kind.  I'm really glad that they have appeal for other listeners. The first sonata was written a couple of days after the death of my much beloved grandmother. Although there's no way to tell from the music, she loved Schubert, and for me at least, this piece connects with him too, believe it or not! The other two sonatas came out of a dark time for me personally, a time when I was feeling very lost and alone, and like I myself was missing somewhere, hence their subtitles - sonatas in absentia.

There are easier-going, less fraught works in there - such as the children's pieces, and the Christmas ones, and some of the others too - but looking back it worries me how much of this music comes out of difficult times, at least compositionally speaking - for instance both the Unfinished Study and the tiny piece mi ritrovai are related to a period of composer's block around 2005 which only lasted a few months but which I thought at the time was permanent. (It wasn't, but the current one is over a decade and very likely is!). And Around Fern Hill, which looks like the last of these pieces, only has the completion dates of 2011 because I took a break during the writing of it. It's more in the quite complex, heterophonic style of the piece Quiverings. Both of those are amongst my favourites, as it happens.