Opera fans I would like to hear your opinions concerning DRAMA in opera. A few topics to touch upon:
1) Where does it come from?
2) Is it predominantly in the music and libretto? or do we actually need the visual effect of SEEING an opera performed to realize the DRAMA. Are we (I am guilty of this by the way) doing ourselves a disservice by simply reading the libretto as we listen along?
I am asking these questions because only recently have I begun to watch operas on DVD and am sensing that the dramatic effect is amplified when the VISUAL aspect is involved. My imagination as wild as it can be is proving not to be enough. Special effects, costumes, the stage setting have to come together combining with the music and action on stage to promote DRAMA.
How true is this formula?
SOUND (music and libretto)+SIGHT (action, special effects) = DRAMA?
marvin
Like all good fiction, plays, cinema, etc., opera's drama is tied to great storytelling. The best librettists know how to tell a good tale well and keep the audience interested. But that said, the great thing about opera is that the best works have a fusion between this literary aspect (the drama) and the music, the latter often telling the story in a way that words cannot. Having just seen Verdi's Falstaff recently, I was again amazed at Verdi's agility in orchestrating much of the drama, so that even without the words, the music communicates much of the action.
I personally think DVDs are the best thing to happen to recorded opera in a long time. They don't replace actually being there, but the picture and sound quality make watching opera a vastly improved "at-home experience" than it used to be.
--Bruce
Quote from: bhodges on May 25, 2007, 07:33:51 AM
Like all good fiction, plays, cinema, etc., opera's drama is tied to great storytelling.
Well, there were these three lovely young women. Only they really weren't women, because they lived at the bottom of a river. And they weren't really young, because they were as old as the river. Fact is, they were sort of the spirit of the river, and if you ask me,
If they're not really young women, but the spirit of the river, then why are there three of them? well, you've got me stumped . . . .
Quote from: karlhenning on May 25, 2007, 07:49:24 AM
Well, there were these three lovely young women. Only they really weren't women, because they lived at the bottom of a river. And they weren't really young, because they were as old as the river. Fact is, they were sort of the spirit of the river, and if you ask me, If they're not really young women, but the spirit of the river, then why are there three of them? well, you've got me stumped . . . .
Man...I can't imagine
who would like
that story. ;D
--Bruce
seeing and hearing are equally important.
Even listening to the music without libretto in hand, there are multiple auditory cues that can establish the mood of a song, or the drama of an act. In very much the same way you can get the emotional content of spoken word when you're talking on the phone to someone who is alarmed, angry or sad. The voice is a powerful instrument by itself.
Certainly, the combination of all parts of the opera can contribute to the emotional impact. Vocal performance can be complimented by engaging acting within the context of a moving story. Wagner's Gesamtkunstwerk notions aside, you can definitely be moved by how an opera touches a single sense.
I will admit, for those operas that I enjoy the most, I prefer seeing them live, owning a DVD for repeat viewings, and I often have multiple readings on audio and each can get me just as engaged in a work and the work's drama. But there are also times where I've watched a recorded performance on DVD that I've loved on CD where I've found the visual performance to be completely distracting and had a negative impact on my engagement in the opera.
Let me see. It is drama when it is La Traviata wth Anna Netrebko.
When it is Tristan starring Jane Eaglen or Turandot with Marton then I would rather just listen to a recording so that the visuals don't ruin it for me.
Quote from: beclemund on May 25, 2007, 08:59:47 AM
But there are also times where I've watched a recorded performance on DVD that I've loved on CD where I've found the visual performance to be completely distracting and had a negative impact on my engagement in the opera.
You found the visual performance to be completely distracting and PerfectWagnerite follows by distinguishing between performances he likes to see and hear and those that displeased him (visually-I take it Jane Eaglen's size had something to do with it) and would much rather only listen to. So the visual effect does have bearing on one's engagement and it seems that great storytelling (to quote Bruce-libretto and music) can be affected by this.
marvin
It might be interesting to have a thread on opera DVDs in which the musical elements are compelling, but the visuals don't work (for you) at all. I've liked the opera DVDs I've seen (perhaps 40-50), but I'm sure there are some clinkers out there.
--Bruce
Quote from: bhodges on May 25, 2007, 09:38:02 AM
It might be interesting to have a thread on opera DVDs in which the musical elements are compelling, but the visuals don't work (for you) at all. I've liked the opera DVDs I've seen (perhaps 40-50), but I'm sure there are some clinkers out there.
--Bruce
We could start with the Eurotrash for Wagner's Ring. The first sight of a business suit in that work - makes the hair on the back of my neck stand straight up to attention. Grrr!
Quote from: marvinbrown on May 25, 2007, 07:15:26 AM
Opera fans I would like to hear your opinions concerning DRAMA in opera. A few topics to touch upon:
1) Where does it come from?
2) Is it predominantly in the music and libretto? or do we actually need the visual effect of SEEING an opera performed to realize the DRAMA. Are we (I am guilty of this by the way) doing ourselves a disservice by simply reading the libretto as we listen along?
Generally speaking the order of dramatic importance of the main aspects of opera are:
1) Music
2) Libretto
3) Mise en scène
There are many operas that are dramatic triumphs which have ridiculous libretti and are staged with less than perfect concepts/sets/costumes; yet I can't think of a dramtically convincing opera that doesn't have a first-rate score.
Some of the most dramatically satisfying operas that I've attended have been concert or semi-staged performances; so although distinctive staging and special effects can enhance an operatic performance, they are not always absolutely necessary.
In total agreement with you, Brian! Of the many Walküre performances I have seen and have in my collection, the one I treasure most is the concert performance of the 2005 Proms with Pappano conducting, and stars like Domingo, Terfel and Meier. It is in concert performances where 'the other' star, the conductor, is visible and draws our attention to the importance of the music of the work.
Quote from: bricon on May 25, 2007, 09:14:27 PM
Generally speaking the order of dramatic importance of the main aspects of opera are:
1) Music
2) Libretto
3) Mise en scène
There are many operas that are dramatic triumphs which have ridiculous libretti and are staged with less than perfect concepts/sets/costumes; yet I can't think of a dramtically convincing opera that doesn't have a first-rate score.
Some of the most dramatically satisfying operas that I've attended have been concert or semi-staged performances; so although distinctive staging and special effects can enhance an operatic performance, they are not always absolutely necessary.
Hello bricon I like how you have placed music above all else and I agree with that. I am not sure however if Wagner would agree with us. But then again Wagner was a master at libretto and mise en scene. For example some of the stage directions he has written are quite extraordinary like (Valhalla is engulfed in flames in the Ring Cycle) and lets not forget Isolde's transfiguration as she sinks lifeless onto Tristan's Body (that would blow my mind to see). Something tells me that Wagner wanted to awe his audiences visually in addition to providing them with captivating music.
marvin
Quote from: marvinbrown on May 26, 2007, 04:37:39 PM
I am not sure however if Wagner would agree with us. But then again Wagner was a master at libretto and mise en scene.
I don't know that Wagner is a particularly good example of a "master librettist". If ever a librettist cried out for a sympathetic editor, it was surely Richard Wagner. The fact that Wagner's operas often work better in concert (despite their less than perfect libretti) than in staged performances, seems to reinforce the point that his music is of primary importance in his operas.
Quote from: Anne on May 25, 2007, 07:11:46 PM
We could start with the Eurotrash ... The first sight of a business suit ... makes the hair on the back of my neck stand straight up to attention. Grrr!
I agree. I have made several comments on this board regarding the trashy updated staging of beloved operas, live and on DVD.
Quote from: johnshade on May 27, 2007, 07:32:51 AM
I agree. I have made several comments on this board regarding the trashy updated staging of beloved operas, live and on DVD.
By "eurotrash" do you mean a production in the style of Jean Paul Gaultier?
I am already having problems understanding the drama of operas with modern adaptations (I can't seem to get over visual productions that stray into the abstract or surreal or have strange futuristic settings) The last thing I need is to see a production inspired by ideas championed by likes of Jean Paul Gaultier. (Please Note: no offence directed at Gaultier himself)
marvin
marvin,
I don't know the origin of the term, but "Eurotrash" seems to the accepted catch-all for describing controversial stagings of opera, especially modern adaptations.
Quote from: johnshade on May 28, 2007, 02:13:21 PM
I don't know the origin of the term, but "Eurotrash" seems to the accepted catch-all for describing controversial stagings of opera.
Or trashy ones.
Quote from: marvinbrown on May 25, 2007, 07:15:26 AM
Opera fans I would like to hear your opinions concerning DRAMA in opera. A few topics to touch upon:
1) Where does it come from?
2) Is it predominantly in the music and libretto?
I would suggest a reading of Joseph Kerman's Opera as Drama, easily available from Amazon.com.
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on May 28, 2007, 04:03:18 PM
I would suggest a reading of Joseph Kerman's Opera as Drama, easily available from Amazon.com.
Yes Larry I am aware that there are many books on this subject and I have recently started looking into these, but I am also interested in YOUR opinion on the subject. Do you find that an opera must be seen (ie staged) to be truely effective as far as drama is concerned ? and to what extent does the visual aspect of it all add or subtract from your engagement to the drama? For example many here have voiced their lack of enjoyement (engagement) of opera masterpeices that have "trashy" or "eurotrashy" productions. Others claim that at times the music alone can set a "dramatic" mood without the need of the "visual effect".
marvin
Quote from: marvinbrown on May 29, 2007, 01:26:39 AM
Yes Larry I am aware that there are many books on this subject and I have recently started looking into these, but I am also interested in YOUR opinion on the subject. Do you find that an opera must be seen (ie staged) to be truely effective as far as drama is concerned ? and to what extent does the visual aspect of it all add or subtract from your engagement to the drama? For example many here have voiced their lack of enjoyement (engagement) of opera masterpeices that have "trashy" or "eurotrashy" productions. Others claim that at times the music alone can set a "dramatic" mood without the need of the "visual effect".
marvin
Part of my opinion is that Kerman's book is the best thing to read on this subject. The problem is that you're speaking about two separate issues: the degree to which the composer creates drama in response to the libretto; and the degree to which the musical drama is realized by a particular staging. The first of these, which is the subject of Kerman's book, concerns how the composer transforms an action by way of music, in which case music fulfills a function analogous to poetry in spoken drama such as Shakespeare. The second of these concerns how a stage director realizes the completed operatic work. I have seen so many eccentric, preposterous, and self-indulgent operatic productions that I rarely want to see a DVD of any production, as this only preserves the particular biases of the production permanently. Audio recordings, by and large, at their best do not suffer from the interference of self-indulgent stage directors. On the other hand, a truly great operatic production (the Metropolitan Opera's version of Berg's Lulu is one that comes to mind) is something you do want preserved for its exceptionally intelligent realization of each aspect of the musical drama as conceived by the composer.
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on May 29, 2007, 03:09:02 AM
The problem is that you're speaking about two separate issues: the degree to which the composer creates drama in response to the libretto; and the degree to which the musical drama is realized by a particular staging. The first of these, which is the subject of Kerman's book, concerns how the composer transforms an action by way of music, in which case music fulfills a function analogous to poetry in spoken drama such as Shakespeare. The second of these concerns how a stage director realizes the completed operatic work.
A BRILLIANT observation and one that I completely missed. Thanks for pointing out the differences between the composer's "hand" and the stage director's "hand" in creating drama. I have a lot of reading to do. I love opera as a musical genre so much (more than any other genre: symphonies, chamber music, sonatas, concertos etc.) that I want to understand all its elements (music, drama, staging etc.)
marvin
Quote from: marvinbrown on May 29, 2007, 06:15:47 AM
I have a lot of reading to do. I love opera as a musical genre so much ...that I want to understand all its elements (music, drama, staging etc.) marvin
Yes. It will pay great rewards. Reading about opera, the drama, and the composers is a delight; and listen, listen, listen. I have become to "know" many operas especially of Mozart and Richard Strauss.
JS
Ideally, the poetry (most opera librettos include some poetry even if they're not entirely poetic), the drama, the staging, the acting and the music in opera should meld into a powerful, balanced whole. But how seldom it happens! And even then, it can be ruined, visually at least, by inappropriate stage sets or poor acting.
Between CD, DVD, and VHS I must have 10+ performances of Boris Godunov so you know I really love that opera. About 2 days ago I put a new DVD into the player. There was Boris in a modern business suit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It made me feel sick at heart. I couldn't stand it and removed the DVD from the player with great disappointment.
I should have known better than to buy it as a picture of Matty Salminen (in a business suit) was on the front cover. Boris just isn't Boris without his gorgeous clothing from that era in Russian history.
I'd like to second Larry R's suggestion of reading Joseph Kerman's Opera as Drama. I don't think there's a wasted word in the whole book. He has some very interesting things to say about Tristan und Isolde among others.
Quote from: Anne on May 29, 2007, 04:38:11 PM
. I couldn't stand it and removed the DVD from the player with great disappointment.
Sad you didn't stick with it! You missed great acting, great singing, great directing, and once you open your mind a tiny bit to new ideas - and don't call them Eurotrash! - you will discover the same great music only wearing a different costume. Try it, you might like it! ;D
Quote from: Anne on May 29, 2007, 04:49:06 PM
I'd like to second Larry R's suggestion of reading Joseph Kerman's Opera as Drama. I don't think there's a wasted word in the whole book. He has some very interesting things to say about Tristan und Isolde among others.
So many people have mentioned Kerman's Opera as Drama (Larry twice: once on this GMG website and another time on the old GMG website) I had previously placed this book in my shopping cart to buy later and have now officially ordered it from amazon.co.uk:
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41G8T0VVDDL._SS500_.jpg)
I do sympathize with Anne and her reaction to the modern adaptation of Boris Godunov. Personally I find it hard to connect to opera productions (drama+music) if the production is not TRADITIONAL (for lack of a better word)
uffeviking, but I am working on it. I want to start exposing myself to different stage productions of the operas I love. I recently bought the following recording of Wagner's Flying Dutchman:
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51M4EF8PJAL._SS500_.jpg)
This came highly recommended by a freind of mine and from what he tells me it is not a Traditional production but has twists and turns in it......he tells me it is visually highly dramatic. I have not seen it yet and will watch it this weekend.
marvin
I do sympathize with Anne and her reaction to the modern adaptation of Boris Godunov. Personally I find it hard to connect to opera productions (drama+music) if the production is not TRADITIONAL (for lack of a better word) uffeviking, but I am working on it. I want to start exposing myself to different stage productions of the operas I love. I recently bought the following recording of Wagner's Flying Dutchman:
This came highly recommended by a freind of mine and from what he tells me it is not a Traditional production but has twists and turns in it......he tells me it is visually highly dramatic. I have not seen it yet and will watch it this weekend.
marvin
Marvin and John,
Thanks to both of you for understanding my dislike of modern dress for historic operas.
Marvin,
I have that DVD of Der Fliegende Hollander and enjoyed it very much.
The libretto establishes the plot, the action, the characters and the way they interact with each others.
But, to me, the libretto offers silhouettes, nothing more. It is the music that gives life to them, that makes us understand their deep personalities.
If we read the libretto of Il Trovatore we find a banal story of revenge. But when we listen "Il balen del suo sorriso" we understand that De Luna is only a young man in love, who suffers from Leonora indifference. He is not a bad person, he is like his brother, Manrico. They are rivals in politics and love, that's all.
Much of the words said by Tristan in the 2nd act of the opera are pure nonsense or a sign of a very sick and depressed man. But the music changes all that: it becomes something almost mystical, a quest for absolute (or annihilation), and love and death become twins as in Leopardi's poem.
That is why even very bad librettos can give extraordinary operas. Aida, Daphne, Russlan and Ludmila, Sadko ...
Quote from: val on May 31, 2007, 01:12:25 AM
The libretto establishes the plot, the action, the characters and the way they interact with each others.
But, to me, the libretto offers silhouettes, nothing more. It is the music that gives life to them, that makes us understand their deep personalities.
If we read the libretto of Il Trovatore we find a banal story of revenge. But when we listen "Il balen del suo sorriso" we understand that De Luna is only a young man in love, who suffers from Leonora indifference. He is not a bad person, he is like his brother, Manrico. They are rivals in politics and love, that's all.
Much of the words said by Tristan in the 2nd act of the opera are pure nonsense or a sign of a very sick and depressed man. But the music changes all that: it becomes something almost mystical, a quest for absolute (or annihilation), and love and death become twins as in Leopardi's poem.
That is why even very bad librettos can give extraordinary operas. Aida, Daphne, Russlan and Ludmila, Sadko ...
A very good observation Val. Now that I think about it, I was (dare I say it) never a big fan of Verdi's Macbeth. But Macbeth is one of Shakespeare's great masterpeices and you'd think setting it to music would instantly create a captivatingly dramatic opera. However Verdi's La Traviata and Rigolleto as well as Aida have libretti that pale in comparison to Shakepeare's Macbeth and yet I could listen to these operas endlessly (some of Verdi's greatest works musically speaking) and I much prefer all of these to Verdi's Macbeth. I guess you can throw Otello into the mix as well.
(I can't wait to get my hands on Kerman's book)
marvin