Bruckner's Abbey

[Cato]

In other Bruckner news, I'm looking forward to the Philadelphia Orchestra concert below this weekend. I don't think I've ever heard the Haydn.

Mirga Gražinytė-Tyla, conductor
Jennifer Montone, horn

Haydn Horn Concerto No. 1
Bruckner Symphony No. 6

https://www.philorch.org/performances/our-season/events-and-tickets/2023-2024-season/verizon-hall/haydn-and-bruckner/

-Bruce

From the What Are You Listening To topic...

Happily replaying Bruckner 6 in my head, after performances this weekend with the Philadelphia Orchestra and conductor Mirga Gražinytė-Tyla.

At the concert, struck up a conversation with a journalist from Panama who was in town for the day. She had never heard the piece, nor the conductor, and was in awe.

-Bruce

Being in awe after hearing a Bruckner symphony is to be expected!   

[brewski]

Being in awe after hearing a Bruckner symphony is to be expected!   

Well, I'd like to think that! But in my experience listeners are mixed: some are mesmerized, others bored. I could tell that this weekend, some in the audience were not having a good time. Bruckner does require a commitment to an hour or so, and not everyone these days seems to have that kind of attention span.

But it was fun sharing it with those who do!

-Bruce

[Cato]

Well, I'd like to think that! But in my experience listeners are mixed: some are mesmerized, others bored. I could tell that this weekend, some in the audience were not having a good time. Bruckner does require a commitment to an hour or so, and not everyone these days seems to have that kind of attention span.

But it was fun sharing it with those who do!

-Bruce

You remind me of the time I tried to convince my brother-in-law that Classical Music was worth his time, so I cranked up Pierre Boulez on a DGG CD with the Infernal Dance from Stravinsky's Firebird Suite.

In less than a minute he had his hands folded on his pizza-and-beer stomach and his eyes closed: "Yeah, that stuff always puts me to sleep."      

[Cato]

This came up at a Mahler fansite: from the memoirs of Natalie Bauer-Lechner about Gustav Mahler:

According to her memoirs, while comparing Brahms to Bruckner in a discussion with his brother Otto, Mahler stated that he found the Gestalt (i.e. the overall form) in the works of Bruckner weaker:

"...The greatness and exuberance of invention in Bruckner undoubtedly excite, but one is continuously disturbed and disappointed by the fragmentation of his work. I allow myself to say this because you know how much I revere him, despite everything, and I will always do everything possible for him to be performed and listened to. It is really sad that in life, from his contemporaries, Bruckner never obtained what he deserved. He begins to assert himself only now that he is over seventy years old; and from posterity, which receives only what is complete, perfect, will be even less loved and understood..."

Certainly that last prediction has turned out to be completely wrong! 

I find the opinion about the "fragmentation" in Bruckner's works incomprehensible, especially from a composer/conductor who studied Bruckner's works.

[brewski]

You remind me of the time I tried to convince my brother-in-law that Classical Music was worth his time, so I cranked up Pierre Boulez on a DGG CD with the Infernal Dance from Stravinsky's Firebird Suite.

In less than a minute he had his hands folded on his pizza-and-beer stomach and his eyes closed: "Yeah, that stuff always puts me to sleep."     

   

I mean, to each his own, but imagine listening to that particular sequence (with Boulez and Chicago, no less) and thinking "time for a nap."     

But then, there's a certain segment of people who think that classical music is "relaxing." 

-Bruce

[DavidW]

Being in awe after hearing a Bruckner symphony is to be expected! 

I'm sad to say that I've never heard Bruckner live, though I've heard Mahler live many times.

[brewski]

I'm sad to say that I've never heard Bruckner live, though I've heard Mahler live many times.

Bruckner live can be thrilling. (Or for some, time to mentally take stock of the pantry for the next day's grocery list.  )

-Bruce

[Cato]

   

I mean, to each his own, but imagine listening to that particular sequence (with Boulez and Chicago, no less) and thinking "time for a nap."     

But then, there's a certain segment of people who think that classical music is "relaxing." 

-Bruce

Yes, and Classical Music is, as we know, often marketed as "relaxing."

On my brother-in-law: he is a wise guy at times and a "reverse snob," i.e. too often, any kind of "high culture" is mocked, while cruder things are lionized.

My wife just sighs! 

I'm sad to say that I've never heard Bruckner live, though I've heard Mahler live many times.

I have been blessed to hear the Cleveland Orchestra in the Fifth Symphony, the Toledo Symphony Orchestra performing in the local Catholic Cathedral Die Nullte, the Third, Fourth, Fifth and Eighth, and the Seventh with the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra.

All were simply marvelous experiences!!!     Hearing Bruckner in a cathedral was especially thrilling: the conductor of the Toledo Symphony at the time, Stefan Sanderling, was awarded the Kilenyi Medal by the Bruckner Society of America.  The concerts were well attended, but the tradition ended some years ago.  Sad!

[calyptorhynchus]

Here's an interesting point. In the first movement of Bruckner's 9th, at bar 68 of the Nowak score to be exact, there is a minim timpani note notated; this occurs after five bars of convulsive statement of main theme fff with every instrument in the orchestra playing, the timpani accompanying with rolls fff. Now there is no change in the dynamic for the timpani notated so that single minim should be an enormous thud heard clearly, as all the other instruments have a tied note over the bar line and their notes will be dying away.

This is how I heard it the first time I listened to it as a teenager and it scared the willies out of me, I had never heard anything quite so frightening in music. However I have noticed that some in recordings the timpanist plays that note as a rather modest thump (so probably f or ff) and in some recordings the timpanist doesn't seem to play anything in that bar, which kind of ruins the effect for me.

[Cato]

Here's an interesting point. In the first movement of Bruckner's 9th, at bar 68 of the Nowak score to be exact, there is a minim timpani note notated; this occurs after five bars of convulsive statement of main theme fff with every instrument in the orchestra playing, the timpani accompanying with rolls fff. Now there is no change in the dynamic for the timpani notated so that single minim should be an enormous thud heard clearly, as all the other instruments have a tied note over the bar line and their notes will be dying away.

This is how I heard it the first time I listened to it as a teenager and it scared the willies out of me, I had never heard anything quite so frightening in music. However I have noticed that some in recordings the timpanist plays that note as a rather modest thump (so probably f or ff) and in some recordings the timpanist doesn't seem to play anything in that bar, which kind of ruins the effect for me.

Do you recall which recording you heard as a teenager?  Yes, the single note is indicated in the Nowak score at bar 68, although no special emphasis is indicated, e.g. no > is there nor is there a staccato dot.

My Jochum DGG performance has the timpanist simply ending his roll: the note is audible, but not in the fff which you heard, when you were a teenager.

Via YouTube, I checked performances conducted by Guenter Wand and Leonard Bernstein (the note is there, but not emphasized), Carlo Maria Giulini, Carl Schuricht, Herbert Von Karajan (the note is inaudible in all three!), and also checked Simon Rattle's version with the Finale (again, not emphasized).

I do recall hearing a performance, where the note is given a rather loud emphasis, and yes, has therefore a frightening effect!

[DavidW]

But then, there's a certain segment of people who think that classical music is "relaxing." 

-Bruce

I'm sure then you immediately start blasting Penderecki's Threnody to correct them!

[Daverz]

I'm sure then you immediately start blasting Penderecki's Threnody to correct them!

My goto is Xenakis's Kraanerg.

[brewski]

I'm sure then you immediately start blasting Penderecki's Threnody to correct them!

My goto is Xenakis's Kraanerg.

Excellent correctives, gentlemen.

-Bruce

[calyptorhynchus]

Do you recall which recording you heard as a teenager?  Yes, the single note is indicated in the Nowak score at bar 68, although no special emphasis is indicated, e.g. no > is there nor is there a staccato dot.

My Jochum DGG performance has the timpanist simply ending his roll: the note is audible, but not in the fff which you heard, when you were a teenager.

Via YouTube, I checked performances conducted by Guenter Wand and Leonard Bernstein (the note is there, but not emphasized), Carlo Maria Giulini, Carl Schuricht, Herbert Von Karajan (the note is inaudible in all three!), and also checked Simon Rattle's version with the Finale (again, not emphasized).

I do recall hearing a performance, where the note is given a rather loud emphasis, and yes, has therefore a frightening effect!

Thanks Cato, I will try to remember the recording, it was purchased c 1984 and I think it was a DG cassette tape. Interesting the number of recordings you have sampled that don't have it, I have listened to a few recordings (including some you mentioned) and in addition Horenstein doesn't have it either. However Asahina and Wildner do.

Also I'm no expert on orchestration, but do you put accents on timpani? perhaps I'm underestimating the subtlety of the timpanist's touch, but wouldn't an accent simply result in a louder note (the note is already fff)?

[LKB]

...Also I'm no expert on orchestration, but do you put accents on timpani? perhaps I'm underestimating the subtlety of the timpanist's touch, but wouldn't an accent simply result in a louder note (the note is already fff)?

Back in the Pleistocene when I was still a percussionist, I had a wide variety of mallets and sticks for timpani and various drums. A timpanist can change to a harder and/or smaller mallet if there are repeated accented notes, but for the passage in question you'd just take a VERY firm grip on your large mallet for the one final note.

[Cato]

Thanks Cato, I will try to remember the recording, it was purchased c 1984 and I think it was a DG cassette tape. Interesting the number of recordings you have sampled that don't have it, I have listened to a few recordings (including some you mentioned) and in addition Horenstein doesn't have it either. However Asahina and Wildner do.

Also I'm no expert on orchestration, but do you put accents on timpani? perhaps I'm underestimating the subtlety of the timpanist's touch, but wouldn't an accent simply result in a louder note (the note is already fff)?

Back in the Pleistocene when I was still a percussionist, I had a wide variety of mallets and sticks for timpani and various drums. A timpanist can change to a harder and/or smaller mallet if there are repeated accented notes, but for the passage in question you'd just take a VERY firm grip on your large mallet for the one final note.

I believe that LKB answers your first question.  For the second question, I will send you to all those recordings where that quarter-note is swallowed up and interpreted simply as a signal for the timpanist to stop.

So, yes, you can definitely put accents on timpani parts.  E.g., in the Rondo-Finale of Mahler's Symphony #7, bars 6 and 12, the 8th-notes have > accents.  In fact, bar 12 has 8 8th-notes, all with accent marks!

[Cato]

Has anyone been interested in Organ Transcriptions of the Bruckner symphonies...or listened to any of these OEHMS CD's?

For those who know French:

https://www.crescendo-magazine.be/sixieme-de-bruckner-a-lorgue-un-breviaire-de-poesie-naturaliste-a-lucerne/

Also:

"

This series marks the 200th anniversary of the birth of Anton Bruckner, which falls in 2024. It's dedicated to Bruckner's symphonies, most of which are heard in new transcriptions for organ performed by Hansjörg Albrecht. This latest album in the edition features Erwin Horn's transcription of Bruckner's Eighth Symphony, performed on the organ of the Musikverein in Vienna.

https://www.abruckner.com/store/abrucknercomexclus/current-releases-cds--dvds--blu-ray--lps/symphony--8-hansjoerg-albrecht---continuation-of-t/

[Roasted Swan]

Here's an interesting point. In the first movement of Bruckner's 9th, at bar 68 of the Nowak score to be exact, there is a minim timpani note notated; this occurs after five bars of convulsive statement of main theme fff with every instrument in the orchestra playing, the timpani accompanying with rolls fff. Now there is no change in the dynamic for the timpani notated so that single minim should be an enormous thud heard clearly, as all the other instruments have a tied note over the bar line and their notes will be dying away.

This is how I heard it the first time I listened to it as a teenager and it scared the willies out of me, I had never heard anything quite so frightening in music. However I have noticed that some in recordings the timpanist plays that note as a rather modest thump (so probably f or ff) and in some recordings the timpanist doesn't seem to play anything in that bar, which kind of ruins the effect for me.

Not 100% sure I'm looking at the right bar(s) - IMSLP has the manuscript copy of the score.  I think page 14 of the manuscript is the moment you mean.  But it looks as if the timps and all the orchestra have had a 4 bar crescendo marked in all parts "crescendo sempre" which is crowned by the fff marking again in all parts but everyone except the timpanist has "hat" accents in addition.  I've never really got/understood how as a player you differentiate between a "hat" accent and a standard "lying on its side" v accent.  My reading of that would be a collective momentary emphasis at the arrival of the fff but nothing different between the parts

https://vmirror.imslp.org/files/imglnks/usimg/8/8c/IMSLP263145-PMLP07928-Bruckner_-_Symphony_No._9_in_D_minor_(1891-94_1st_version,_autograph_manuscript),_WAB_109_-_Mvt._1.pdf

[LKB]

Not 100% sure I'm looking at the right bar(s) - IMSLP has the manuscript copy of the score.  I think page 14 of the manuscript is the moment you mean.  But it looks as if the timps and all the orchestra have had a 4 bar crescendo marked in all parts "crescendo sempre" which is crowned by the fff marking again in all parts but everyone except the timpanist has "hat" accents in addition.  I've never really got/understood how as a player you differentiate between a "hat" accent and a standard "lying on its side" v accent.  My reading of that would be a collective momentary emphasis at the arrival of the fff but nothing different between the parts

https://vmirror.imslp.org/files/imglnks/usimg/8/8c/IMSLP263145-PMLP07928-Bruckner_-_Symphony_No._9_in_D_minor_(1891-94_1st_version,_autograph_manuscript),_WAB_109_-_Mvt._1.pdf

Agogic ( "hat" ) accents have the extra energy more evenly spread through the note, without the initial emphasis. This gives the note the impression of added weight, which can be preferred where the harmonic movement has slowed, such as in the passage in question.

[Roasted Swan]

Agogic ( "hat" ) accents have the extra energy more evenly spread through the note, without the initial emphasis. This gives the note the impression of added weight, which can be preferred where the harmonic movement has slowed, such as in the passage in question.

Thankyou for the explanation.  I can honestly say in over 40 years of professional orchestral playing NO conductor has ever explained/requested that difference.  But how can something be "accented" without an initial emphasis - which is after all what an 'accent' means......?