GMG Classical Music Forum

The Back Room => The Diner => Topic started by: EigenUser on May 09, 2014, 06:44:30 AM

Title: n-word Posts
Post by: EigenUser on May 09, 2014, 06:44:30 AM
Let "n" be a positive integer.

 8)
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: Florestan on May 09, 2014, 06:46:37 AM
just what the fuck so much that cannot give up goddamit GMG forever
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: bwv 1080 on May 09, 2014, 06:52:28 AM
http://dicelog.com/biblio/YRNL_SRRBDRCA_PIYGPG_BGJOV_JJMCST_NFPE/YRNL_SRRBDRCA_PIYGPG_BGJOV_JJMCST_NFPE.txt

Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 09, 2014, 06:52:46 AM
well all right then
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: Ken B on May 09, 2014, 06:59:20 AM
What I really like about Stockhausen is

(n=8)
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: ibanezmonster on May 09, 2014, 08:35:49 AM
What I really like about Stockhausen is

(n=8)
What James likes about Stockhausen is 8==================D
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: Daverz on May 09, 2014, 03:39:21 PM
Oh...I thought snyppy was being a bad boy again.
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: ibanezmonster on May 09, 2014, 03:41:08 PM
Naggers
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: kishnevi on May 09, 2014, 04:25:15 PM
What I really like about Stockhausen is

(n=8)

Actually, with Stockhausen,  one would need to answer with an "n" in the form of
n=a*e1/b +c*i
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: Ken B on May 09, 2014, 04:29:32 PM
What James likes about Stockhausen is 8==================D
Ah yes. I remember that exchange!
 :D
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: EigenUser on May 09, 2014, 05:12:03 PM
Ah yes. I remember that exchange!
 :D
Was this exchange before my time (here)?
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: Ken B on May 09, 2014, 05:17:40 PM
Was this exchange before my time (here)?

Start here and read the series of comments. http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20812.msg780556.html#msg780556
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: EigenUser on May 09, 2014, 05:24:34 PM
Start here and read the series of comments. http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20812.msg780556.html#msg780556
Oh, I remember that now...

In a video interview I saw with him, he said that he had two musicians living with him so he could ask them to play what he was writing to see if it was reasonable to play.

Yeah... sure...
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: bwv 1080 on May 09, 2014, 05:34:40 PM
If James is what passes for a troll these days then this board has really become tame

Gruppen is but children playing with toys compared to Debussy's Pelleas et Melisande, but only the aesthetically elite would understand this
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: ibanezmonster on May 09, 2014, 05:35:40 PM
If James is what passes for a troll these days then this board has really become tame

Gruppen is but children playing with toys compared to Debussy's Pelleas et Melisande, but only the aesthetically elite would understand this
But all of Debussy's music was written by someone else.
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: bwv 1080 on May 09, 2014, 05:35:56 PM
BTW did anyone get my earlier Borges reference?
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: EigenUser on May 09, 2014, 05:49:10 PM
But all of Debussy's music was written by someone else.
Debussy? Let me tell you why he was not a great composer. It's just all noise compared to Mendelssohn's violin concerto in D-double-sharp minor.

 :laugh:
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: bwv 1080 on May 09, 2014, 05:53:10 PM
Debussy? Let me tell you why he was not a great composer. It's just all noise compared to Mendelssohn's violin concerto in D-double-sharp minor.

 :laugh:

Yes, no doubt it was Claude's retained foreskin that impeded his artistic achievements
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: The Six on May 09, 2014, 08:41:40 PM
Staying on topic

(http://www.musicalion.com/compositions_images/mxpre6791.gif)
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 10, 2014, 04:10:23 AM
yo, banana boy!
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: EigenUser on May 10, 2014, 05:25:02 AM
I suppose I should clarify, just in case the topic title appears to be racist (although I laughed at the Debussy post ;D). I was poking fun at the one-word, two-word, and three-word post threads. In math if you talk about, for instance, dimensions, then you can have one-dimension, two-dimensions, three-dimensions, and so on (up to infinity). For a more general discussion on dimensions, mathematicians will usually refer to "n-dimensions" (where "n" is 1, 2 ,3, 4, etc. -- i.e. a positive integer). Ken has a background in mathematics so I knew he'd appreciate this. I studied engineering in college, so I have a (lesser ;)) background in mathematics as well (hence my username "EigenUser" -- referring to eigenvalues, eigenvectors, eigenspaces, eigenfunctions, eigenconditions, etc. -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eigenvalues_and_eigenvectors).

Essentially, it's a joke.
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: bwv 1080 on May 10, 2014, 05:56:20 AM
All those German words - are you saying you're a nazi too?

Just kidding, I got the math reference OP title

Perhaps it should have been called 'X-word Posts' then could have got some titillation on top of the math humor ;)
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: Ken B on May 10, 2014, 07:10:02 AM
yo, banana boy!
You talkin to me? You talkin to me? I don't see anyone else you can be talkin to. You talkin to me?
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: The Six on May 10, 2014, 12:42:24 PM
yo, banana boy!

not the best choice of fruit for an n word topic...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bj4QAXI_FNk
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: Florestan on May 12, 2014, 01:11:21 AM
Essentially, it's a joke.

Well, I studied engineering too so I got your joke, but... it could also be taken seriously: since all posts ever written on GMG fall under this label, why not lumping them together in one single thread, namely this one? 
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: EigenUser on May 12, 2014, 04:46:36 AM
Well, I studied engineering too so I got your joke, but... it could also be taken seriously: since all posts ever written on GMG fall under this label, why not lumping them together in one single thread, namely this one?
:laugh: Good idea. And +1 for studying engineering!

Well, we might have to admit some of the more eccentric posts to the field of complex numbers 8).
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: snyprrr on May 12, 2014, 07:42:35 AM
Oh...I thought snyppy was being a bad boy again.

I was over at a family friend's- they can verify my presence! I'm like Schultz- I know nothing! whaaa?
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: Ken B on May 12, 2014, 08:14:33 AM
:laugh: Good idea. And +1 for studying engineering!
Indeed. If you aren't quite tough enough for pure math ...
 >:D >:D >:D ;D :o 8) ??? >:D :-* :P >:D :laugh:
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: EigenUser on May 12, 2014, 09:40:55 AM
Indeed. If you aren't quite tough enough for pure math ...
 >:D >:D >:D ;D :o 8) ??? >:D :-* :P >:D :laugh:
...or practical enough to build cool things...  >:D >:D >:D

Pure math is interesting, but not for me. Totally different than applied math, although they crossover several times (especially in the areas of analysis and also combinatorics).
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: bwv 1080 on May 12, 2014, 11:57:53 AM
Indeed. If you aren't quite tough enough for pure math ...
 >:D >:D >:D ;D :o 8) ??? >:D :-* :P >:D :laugh:

at least engineering is more than just a giant set of tautologies
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: EigenUser on May 12, 2014, 12:14:13 PM
at least engineering is more than just a giant set of tautologies
The first rule of the tautology club is the first rule of the tautology club!
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: bwv 1080 on May 12, 2014, 12:16:58 PM
The first rule of the tautology club is the first rule of the tautology club!

 ;D
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: EigenUser on May 12, 2014, 12:24:35 PM
Since this seems to be becoming the GMG math club thread, I'll post a link to this:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,23185.msg800827.html#msg800827
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: Ken B on May 12, 2014, 01:05:24 PM
Since this seems to be becoming the GMG math club thread, I'll post a link to this:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,23185.msg800827.html#msg800827
It's alright guys, I understand the engineer's need to compensate, I really do.
 >:D :laugh:

Actually it was the impracticality of math that eventually drove me to abandon ship for CS. So I think of myself as a softwware engineer. I am actually immensely practical. Took me a while to learn that though.

But I need to be able to give Nate the gears!  ;)
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: EigenUser on May 12, 2014, 01:39:30 PM
It's alright guys, I understand the engineer's need to compensate, I really do.
 >:D :laugh:

Actually it was the impracticality of math that eventually drove me to abandon ship for CS. So I think of myself as a softwware engineer. I am actually immensely practical. Took me a while to learn that though.

But I need to be able to give Nate the gears!  ;)
I actually think that I might be worse at CS than theoretical math, and that says a lot because I can hardly construct even the simplest proofs. To me, the two are very similar (probably why I'm bad at both of them) so I can see why you went to CS. Both are very logic-oriented. I suppose that I'm practical, but not logical :laugh:.
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: North Star on May 12, 2014, 02:34:13 PM
The first rule of the tautology club is the first rule of the tautology club!
I'd like to join the club if I'd like to join the club.
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: EigenUser on May 12, 2014, 02:51:32 PM
I fear that the Debussy poll is getting derailed by my post (well, it is my thread to derail ;)).
Quote
I won't ask if you have read Div, grad, curl.
Here is the sequel. You'll thank me later. http://www.amazon.com/Geometrical-Vectors-Chicago-Lectures-Physics/dp/0226890481/ref=cm_cr-mr-title
YES! I have that book "Div, Grad, Curl, and All That". Great little book! Fun, even. It almost reads like a novel. I used this book for the class, written by the professor:


The idea of a professor using their own textbook sounds like a pretentious move, but Dr. Greenberg is seriously one of the kindest and most patient professors I've ever had. I had the chance to take two of his classes and I was his TA for a couple of years. He was also a classical music lover (big RVW fan), so whenever I went to pick-up homework to grade we'd usually end up talking for a half-hour in his office, which was awesome.

Of course, I highly recommend the book if you are ever looking for a good refresher on anything from ODEs, linear algebra, and field theory all the way well into PDEs, Bessel functions, and basic complex variables. Of course, at 1300+ pages, it is more of a brick than a book. The flow of the book from one topic to the next is amazing. He reconciles topics that seem so distant from each other.

I'd like to join the club if I'd like to join the club.
You are already a member if you are already a member.
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: Florestan on May 12, 2014, 11:19:45 PM
The difference between engineers and mathematicians can be highlighted by asking them to solve 2 problems.

Problem #1. You have at your disposal a source of water, a pot and an electric stove. What do you do obtain boiling water?

Both the engineer and the mathematician answer the same: fill the pot with water, light up the stove, place the pot on it and wait until boiling.

Problem #2.You have at your disposal a source of water, a pot full of water and an electric stove. What do you do to obtain boiling water?

The engineer answers: light up the stove, place the pot on it and wait until boiling.

The mathematician answers: empty the pot and we have got the data of the preceding problem, which is already solved.

 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: EigenUser on May 13, 2014, 03:20:23 AM
The difference between engineers and mathematicians can be highlighted by asking them to solve 2 problems.

Problem #1. You have at your disposal a source of water, a pot and an electric stove. What do you do obtain boiling water?

Both the engineer and the mathematician answer the same: fill the pot with water, light up the stove, place the pot on it and wait until boiling.

Problem #2.You have at your disposal a source of water, a pot full of water and an electric stove. What do you do to obtain boiling water?

The engineer answers: light up the stove, place the pot on it and wait until boiling.

The mathematician answers: empty the pot and we have got the data of the preceding problem, which is already solved.

 ;D ;D ;D
:laugh:
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: Florestan on May 13, 2014, 03:28:03 AM
:laugh:

I have one about engineers and economists, too, but it's even tougher and I don't want to offend any economist here, if any.  :D
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: Ken B on May 13, 2014, 06:20:15 AM
I have one about engineers and economists, too, but it's even tougher and I don't want to offend any economist here, if any.  :D
They won't mind. Just tell them the joke is about another school of economics.
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: Florestan on May 13, 2014, 06:44:41 AM
They won't mind. Just tell them the joke is about another school of economics.

 :D :D :D :D

That was good, too.

Okay, here it is.

Two engineers and two economists go to a conference by train. The economists buy two tickets, the engineers only one. "Why only one?", ask the economists. "Wait and see!", reply the engineers. After one hour into the trip, a voice is heard: "Tickets control, please!". The engineers go to the toilet cabin and lock themselves there. The ticket controller arrives, check out the two tickets of the economists and then knock on the toilet cabin's door: "Anybody here? Tickets control, please!". One of the engineers opens the door and hands the ticket to the ticket controller. "Thank you, sir!", he replies, and goes on his way. The engineers return to their places and smile to the economists: "See, that's why we bought only one ticket." The economists look at the engineers with awe and at each other as if saying: "Aha! Got it!"

Conference is over, the four men take the trip back. This time, the economists buy only one ticket, the engineers buy none at all. "Why none?", ask the economists. "Wait and see!", reply the engineers. After one hour into the trip, a voice is heard: "Tickets control, please!". The economists go to the toilet and lock themselves there. One of the engineers go and knock at the toilet cabin's door: "Anybody here? Tickets control, please!". One of the economists opens the door and hands the ticket to the engineer.

Moral of the story: economists apply engineers' methods, but without understanding them.  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: EigenUser on May 13, 2014, 06:52:58 AM
:D :D :D :D

That was good, too.

Okay, here it is.

Two engineers and two economists go to a conference by train. The economists buy two tickets, the engineers only one. "Why only one?", ask the economists. "Wait and see!", reply the engineers. After one hour into the trip, a voice is heard: "Tickets control, please!". The engineers go to the toilet cabin and lock themselves there. The ticket controller arrives, check out the two tickets of the economists and then knock on the toilet cabin's door: "Anybody here? Tickets control, please!". One of the engineers opens the door and hands the ticket to the ticket controller. "Thank you, sir!", he replies, and goes on his way. The engineers return to their places and smile to the economists: "See, that's why we bought only one ticket." The economists look at the engineers with awe and at each other as if saying: "Aha! Got it!"

Conference is over, the four men take the trip back. This time, the economists buy only one ticket, the engineers buy none at all. "Why none?", ask the economists. "Wait and see!", reply the engineers. After one hour into the trip, a voice is heard: "Tickets control, please!". The economists go to the toilet and lock themselves there. One of the engineers go and knock at the toilet cabin's door: "Anybody here? Tickets control, please!". One of the economists opens the door and hands the ticket to the engineer.

Moral of the story: economists apply engineers' methods, but without understanding them.  ;D ;D ;D
I've heard that one before -- it's good. I feel like the same could sometimes apply to mathematicians and engineers (engineers replacing economists, mathematicians replacing engineers).
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: Florestan on May 13, 2014, 07:02:33 AM
I've heard that one before -- it's good. I feel like the same could sometimes apply to mathematicians and engineers (engineers replacing economists, mathematicians replacing engineers).

Nah, mathematicians are just as far from the real world as economists are. For both of them the world is comprised of numbers only. ;D The engineers have a much more wide and realistic worldview: besides numbers, there are the physics laws, too.  ;D ;D

But what do I know? Although having studied engineering, I am quite annoyed by the technological madness that controls our lives today.  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: Ken B on May 13, 2014, 07:37:49 AM
A long queue of engineers walks into a bar.
"Half a pint please." says the first. "Quarter pint please" says the next. "Eight of a pint" says the engineer behind him. "Sixteenth of a pint" says the next.

The bartemder looks at them a while, shakes his head sadly, and pushes 2 pints across. "Engineers!" he says "They never know their limit."
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: EigenUser on May 13, 2014, 07:40:30 AM
A long queue of engineers walks into a bar.
"Half a pint please." says the first. "Quarter pint please" says the next. "Eight of a pint" says the engineer behind him. "Sixteenth of a pint" says the next.

The bartemder looks at them a while, shakes his head sadly, and pushes 2 pints across. "Engineers!" he says "They never know their limit."

You posted that one a while back. Still good, though ;D.

Have you heard of the text that I posted on the previous page? It's used by many colleges. I think that Greenberg has written a few other more theoretical books as well.
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: Florestan on May 13, 2014, 08:55:24 AM
A long queue of engineers walks into a bar.
"Half a pint please." says the first. "Quarter pint please" says the next. "Eight of a pint" says the engineer behind him. "Sixteenth of a pint" says the next.

The bartemder looks at them a while, shakes his head sadly, and pushes 2 pints across. "Engineers!" he says "They never know their limit."

Zenon's paradox, aka as Achilles vs the tortoise! (Not bad for an engineer, eh?  ;D)

A famous Romanian mathematician, Grigore Moisil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigore_Moisil) used to explain the rows theory to his pupils thus: "Every normal man must have a glass of red wine for the dinner. And after having a glass of red wine, he becomes another normal man."  ;D
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: Florestan on May 13, 2014, 09:05:23 AM
(Obliquely related...  ;D)

An ordinary old lady comes to meet the Secretary General of the Romanian Communist Party (actually, that would have been a very unlikely occurrence, but for the sake of it let's pass over) and ask him: "Comrade, who invented Communism, the philosophers or the scientists?" He answers "The philosophers, such as Marx and Engels". To which she replies: "I thought so myself, because if had it been invented by scientists it would have first been tested on rats."  ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: Ken B on May 13, 2014, 11:43:07 AM
Zenon's paradox, aka as Achilles vs the tortoise! (Not bad for an engineer, eh?  ;D)

Just spelling tortoise correctly is good for an engineer.




 >:D
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: EigenUser on July 22, 2014, 01:56:38 PM
Continuing on this thread to avoid ruining the avatar thread

Watch out for those moments of inertia. Soon they turn into minutes of inertia, then quarter hours, then whole days.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Next time I TA dynamics I will be sure to pass this on to the class.

I TA'd this past winter and I gave out a copy of an outstanding essay by fractal mathematician Heinz-Otto Peitgen. The topic? Gyorgy Ligeti, photocopied from this book:



It was a stretch to say it was directly related to what we covered (it wasn't), but nonlinear dynamics and chaos theory isn't totally unrelated, either. If we had more time I would have played the 4th movement of the PC for them. Well, not really, but I would have liked to, especially since I love hearing comments on modern classical music from non-classical music listeners, which are often strikingly more positive than one would expect (in my experience). Coincidentally, the professor I TA'd for was a cellist and a music minor.

Not to be pushy, but I bet you'd appreciate Ligeti much more if you read this essay, based on your background. The book is horribly expensive, but I got it from the library.
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: Ken B on July 22, 2014, 02:10:40 PM
Continuing on this thread to avoid ruining the avatar thread
 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Next time I TA dynamics I will be sure to pass this on to the class.

I TA'd this past winter and I gave out a copy of an outstanding essay by fractal mathematician Heinz-Otto Peitgen. The topic? Gyorgy Ligeti, photocopied from this book:



It was a stretch to say it was directly related to what we covered (it wasn't), but nonlinear dynamics and chaos theory isn't totally unrelated, either. If we had more time I would have played the 4th movement of the PC for them. Well, not really, but I would have liked to, especially since I love hearing comments on modern classical music from non-classical music listeners, which are often strikingly more positive than one would expect (in my experience). Coincidentally, the professor I TA'd for was a cellist and a music minor.

Not to be pushy, but I bet you'd appreciate Ligeti much more if you read this essay, based on your background. The book is horribly expensive, but I got it from the library.

I followed you over here. I think I was the only one who got the n-word joke anyway  :)
I'll look at my library but I doubt they'll have it. But the Detroit system might. I might be able to scare up the Peitgen essay elsewhere.
If you want a good rigorous book on fractals, Fractals Everywhere is good, by Barnes. Formally defines fractals, fractional dimension. Old, probably the first textbook on fractals, but well organized and 'easy'  (ie good for intelligent readers not trained in the formal apparatus of abstract math. That'd be you.)
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: EigenUser on July 22, 2014, 02:54:02 PM
I followed you over here. I think I was the only one who got the n-word joke anyway  :)
I'll look at my library but I doubt they'll have it. But the Detroit system might. I might be able to scare up the Peitgen essay elsewhere.
If you want a good rigorous book on fractals, Fractals Everywhere is good, by Barnes. Formally defines fractals, fractional dimension. Old, probably the first textbook on fractals, but well organized and 'easy'  (ie good for intelligent readers not trained in the formal apparatus of abstract math. That'd be you.)
This is very useful information for me, as I really don't understand them very well and I would like to. I shall put this on my mental library list for when I return to school in a month.
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: Ken B on July 22, 2014, 03:06:31 PM
This is very useful information for me, as I really don't understand them very well and I would like to. I shall put this on my mental library list for when I return to school in a month.
I tend to be anal about formal abstract definitions of stuff. Not that I don't like intuitive things, but I need to convince myself from precise definitions. Otherwise I obsess and lose the thread. When I read Gravity by Misner, Thorne, Wheeler I just about went nuts. The intuitive stuff is well done, but I had to read a hard core grad level math text on GR and fibre bundles before I could get past "parallel transport WHERE??" . Then I could look at the pictures.

If that makes sense to you or anyone here  :)

Anyway, I think the book will be useful for you  ;D
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: bwv 1080 on July 24, 2014, 10:18:46 AM
guy is flying to California sitting next to a mathematician and looks out the window and sees the Grand Canyon. 
'wow that is impressive' he says. 
Mathematician: 'Yes did you know it is 70,000,003 years old?'
Guy: '70,000,003? how did you come up with that?'
Mathematician: 'well three years ago I sat next to a geologist on this same flight and asked him'
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 24, 2014, 10:24:48 AM
.
Quote from: Geo. Bernard Shaw
A man never tells you anything until you contradict him.
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: Ken B on July 24, 2014, 10:27:06 AM
guy is flying to California sitting next to a mathematician and looks out the window and sees a black sheep.
'Wow, a black sheep' he says. 
'Well', says the mathematician, 'black on top.'
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: EigenUser on July 24, 2014, 12:08:07 PM
Engineering failure: when statics become dynamics.

At my alma mater, engineers in the math courses only needed 50%, 40% to get the prerequisite,  but the human beings pure math types were expected to learn the material.
Well, remind me to never cross any bridges near your alma mater :D.

At mine, it really just depended on the professor. However, the ordinary differential equations course for the math majors was far better than the one for engineers. I took both -- the former for my own pleasure ;D, and the latter because I had to. Both were geared towards applied math, but the difference is pretty much what you said (actually learning vs. essentially matching forms and plugging in) .I took the math ODE course as a freshman and really struggled to get a B-. The following semester I took the engineering one and got 100% on every homework and every exam. When the professor found out that I had already taken the math version, even he said something like "Oh, well this one will be a joke for you, then!" In fact, perhaps you know his PDE book (which I found in a Borders and he graciously signed for me ;D):



And your new avatar made me laugh. BUT, remember that if it breaks, it isn't the problem of statics. It is the problem of solid mechanics (which is close to the realm of materials science, therefore I suck at it, QED).
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: Ken B on July 24, 2014, 12:50:56 PM
Well, remind me to never cross any bridges near your alma mater :D.

At mine, it really just depended on the professor. However, the ordinary differential equations course for the math majors was far better than the one for engineers. I took both -- the former for my own pleasure ;D, and the latter because I had to. Both were geared towards applied math, but the difference is pretty much what you said (actually learning vs. essentially matching forms and plugging in) .I took the math ODE course as a freshman and really struggled to get a B-. The following semester I took the engineering one and got 100% on every homework and every exam. When the professor found out that I had already taken the math version, even he said something like "Oh, well this one will be a joke for you, then!" In fact, perhaps you know his PDE book (which I found in a Borders and he graciously signed for me ;D):



And your new avatar made me laugh. BUT, remember that if it breaks, it isn't the problem of statics. It is the problem of solid mechanics (which is close to the realm of materials science, therefore I suck at it, QED).

Dover math books are almost all excellent. For PDE the one I like best is an engineering text, by Farlow
Isbn 978-0486676203  i like this because it is good on understanding how to read the equation rather than just solve it.
If you want a not too difficult text on solutions with distributions, which are nicer than functions, Applied Functional Analysis by Griffel is a terrific book. If you took a course on Lebesgue you should be able to handle it.
Wilcox is a good thin lebesgue book.  :)

Davis's book on Fourier series 9780486659732 is the best intro to the theory rather than the techniques and existence theorems.
These are all well written texts that avoid the extremely abstract and terse style of most advanced math texts. All Dover.

Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: bwv 1080 on July 24, 2014, 01:04:55 PM
I took the the functional analysis course on coursera (at least 3-4 weeks of it) and can appreciate the depth of the math  view (the course began with a derivation of Navier-Stokes, which should have tipped me off immediately that I was out of my depth)

Struggling now with GMM (basically what Lars Peter Hansen won the Nobel Prize for last year) and the same issues between academic finance and practice
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: EigenUser on July 24, 2014, 01:34:16 PM
Dover math books are almost all excellent. For PDE the one I like best is an engineering text, by Farlow
Isbn 978-0486676203  i like this because it is good on understanding how to read the equation rather than just solve it.
If you want a not too difficult text on solutions with distributions, which are nicer than functions, Applied Functional Analysis by Griffel is a terrific book. If you took a course on Lebesgue you should be able to handle it.
Wilcox is a good thin lebesgue book.  :)

Davis's book on Fourier series 9780486659732 is the best intro to the theory rather than the techniques and existence theorems.
These are all well written texts that avoid the extremely abstract and terse style of most advanced math texts. All Dover.
I keep Farlow's PDE text under my pillow at night.

Not really (a friend just borrowed it a few weeks ago), but I do seriously love that book. It is probably one of the most "worn" looking books I have (I got it new). Not only did I learn a lot on PDEs from that, but there is an outstanding short section at the end on calculus of variations -- that is where the topic first "clicked" for me.

For PDEs, the Farlow and this are my top choices:



I know Dr. Greenberg very well (I've taken courses from him and TA'd for him) and his book has such a down-to-earth way of explaining things that suits him.

Another excellent applied mathematics book (more advanced) is the Logan, which I used for another class:



Of course, these aren't Dover books, so they are a fortune.

I took the the functional analysis course on coursera (at least 3-4 weeks of it) and can appreciate the depth of the math  view (the course began with a derivation of Navier-Stokes, which should have tipped me off immediately that I was out of my depth)
Ah, the NS equations! I haven't seen the 3D case derived, but I've seen the 2D case before. When I took a graduate heat transfer course we derived a system of energy equations (I forget if they had a name). Basically, it was a system that included momentum transfer (N-S) along with energy (heat) transfer. So, the 3D case for this would be a system of 6 awful and nonlinear equations! :o ???
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: Ken B on July 24, 2014, 02:29:08 PM
Just say no to fluid mechanics.
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: bwv 1080 on July 24, 2014, 07:09:44 PM
or, to go completely friccin nuts, you can combine Navier-Stokes w General Relativity

http://personalpages.to.infn.it/~alberico/QGP2008/Romatschke/Romatschke-lectures.pdf
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 25, 2014, 03:18:53 AM
I might. Then again, I might not.
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: bwv 1080 on July 25, 2014, 06:24:05 AM
Here is QFT and NS.  Checking their derivation I think they got a sign wrong on page 15

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1305.0798v2.pdf

"We study linear and nonlinear wave propagation in a dense and cold hadron gas and also in
a cold quark gluon plasma, taking viscosity into account and using the Navier-Stokes equation.
The equation of state of the hadronic phase is derived from the nonlinear Walecka model in the
mean field approximation. The quark gluon plasma phase is described by the MIT equation of
state. We show that in a hadron gas viscosity strongly damps wave propagation and also hinders
shock wave formation. This marked difference between the two phases may have phenomenological
consequences and lead to new QGP signatures"
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: EigenUser on July 25, 2014, 07:06:36 AM
Here is QFT and NS.  Checking their derivation I think they got a sign wrong on page 15
*universe implodes*

Yeah, sure, I totally see what you mean... :-X
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: EigenUser on August 24, 2014, 01:56:31 AM
Classes start this coming Tuesday (day after tomorrow!) and I still haven't gotten my departmental TA assignment... Fingers crossed for machine design (kinematics and kinetics). I'll probably get it. It was my first choice (after that were fluids and thermo) and no one else probably wants it. I love that kind of stuff. Graphical and analytical four-bar linkage synthesis, kinematic linkage analysis, cams, and gears. One of my all-time favorite classes in mechanical engineering. It's a good thing I liked it, though, because the homework in that class took forever. The one on acceleration took me 20 pages of engineering paper and a few days to figure out and complete. Once you figure it out it isn't really difficult -- just tedious.

Stuff like this:
(http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/mech324/figures/F05-01.jpg)
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: Ken B on August 24, 2014, 05:47:05 AM
Classes start this coming Tuesday (day after tomorrow!) and I still haven't gotten my departmental TA assignment... Fingers crossed for machine design (kinematics and kinetics). I'll probably get it. It was my first choice (after that were fluids and thermo) and no one else probably wants it. I love that kind of stuff. Graphical and analytical four-bar linkage synthesis, kinematic linkage analysis, cams, and gears. One of my all-time favorite classes in mechanical engineering. It's a good thing I liked it, though, because the homework in that class took forever. The one on acceleration took me 20 pages of engineering paper and a few days to figure out and complete. Once you figure it out it isn't really difficult -- just tedious.

Stuff like this:
(http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/mech324/figures/F05-01.jpg)
You can't fool me. That's actually part of the score of Gruppen.
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: EigenUser on August 25, 2014, 06:26:28 AM
You can't fool me. That's actually part of the score of Gruppen.
:laugh:

I just found out that I got it, so I'm happy. This can be the theme for this year's class. I've always thought that it sounded very mechanical.
           
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jlHmv3XY00M/TlVM1BJ0-JI/AAAAAAAAEh4/XeiurZbNTYc/s400/Car+engine+cylinders+diagram.gif)

There's also the opening of Bartok's Sonata Sz. 80 (solo piano). And, of course, Honegger's Pacific 2.3.1.
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: Ken B on August 25, 2014, 06:09:13 PM
:laugh:

I just found out that I got it, so I'm happy. This can be the theme for this year's class. I've always thought that it sounded very mechanical.
           
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jlHmv3XY00M/TlVM1BJ0-JI/AAAAAAAAEh4/XeiurZbNTYc/s400/Car+engine+cylinders+diagram.gif)

There's also the opening of Bartok's Sonata Sz. 80 (solo piano). And, of course, Honegger's Pacific 2.3.1.
You may know it but I saw a Brit TV thing once about a guy who recreated and repairded and elaborated centuries old automata. Geears, cam, etc, to drive not just cuckoo clocks etc but robots and figurines that were simply amazing. Wish I had more details.
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: EigenUser on August 28, 2014, 10:37:27 AM
Just say no to fluid mechanics.
I'm about to leave to go to my fluid mechanics class. I think we're covering tensors today, but I could be wrong and it might be sometime next week. I'll let you know :D.
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 28, 2014, 10:41:43 AM
Good Signior Leonato, you are come to meet your trouble:  the fashion of the world is to avoid cost, and you encounter it.
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: EigenUser on September 16, 2014, 06:17:38 AM
I'm about to leave to go to my fluid mechanics class. I think we're covering tensors today, but I could be wrong and it might be sometime next week. I'll let you know :D.
For Ken ;) (meant to post this last week). Now I can say (in response to the question you asked a few months ago) YES! I have covered tensors, though I am not totally convinced yet as to why I'd prefer them over vectors. I'm sure that will change as we start deriving equations using them, though.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/4loq3ypcqoexu9h/Photo%20Sep%2016%2C%2011%2011%2017%20AM.jpg)
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: Ken B on September 16, 2014, 06:41:39 AM
For Ken ;) (meant to post this last week). Now I can say (in response to the question you asked a few months ago) YES! I have covered tensors, though I am not totally convinced yet as to why I'd prefer them over vectors. I'm sure that will change as we start deriving equations using them, though.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/4loq3ypcqoexu9h/Photo%20Sep%2016%2C%2011%2011%2017%20AM.jpg)
It's not a matter of preferring alas. Tensors are a generalization of vectors. There are places where a vector description of something gets awkward.  I wish I had an easy way to explain the essence of what makes a tensor different from a vector, but I am not sure I can.
It is actually symmetrical but it might help to think of contravariant tensors as things to be measured, and covariant ones as things that do the measuring. I recommended a book, I think geometrical vectors by weinberg. I'll see if I can recall it exactly.
if, unlike me, you are not anal about formal definitions and mathematical rigor then the best book is the start of Gravitation by Misner et al. Very visual.
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: EigenUser on September 16, 2014, 09:47:24 AM
It's not a matter of preferring alas. Tensors are a generalization of vectors. There are places where a vector description of something gets awkward.  I wish I had an easy way to explain the essence of what makes a tensor different from a vector, but I am not sure I can.
It is actually symmetrical but it might help to think of contravariant tensors as things to be measured, and covariant ones as things that do the measuring. I recommended a book, I think geometrical vectors by weinberg. I'll see if I can recall it exactly.
if, unlike me, you are not anal about formal definitions and mathematical rigor then the best book is the start of Gravitation by Misner et al. Very visual.
No, I understand that -- a scalar is a zeroth-order tensor, a vector is a first-order tensor, etc. I took the undergraduate fluids with the same professor and we derived equations using vectors. I have never dealt with tensors, but he made it sound like the derivations can go much further with tensors than they can with vectors.

Also, by preferring, I was referring to index notation versus the standard vector ('e'-hat) notation that I'm used to for dealing with first-order tensors. The problems on our first homework dealt with vectors, but we had to use index notation to get used to it.

YES!!! The library has the Misner. I couldn't find anything by Weinberg, but right now what I need is a good visual approach especially since this is for a concrete subject like fluid mechanics. I was going to stop by the library to get a book/bio on Webern and another on Messiaen (not joking!), so I'll get this one as well. Thanks -- any textbook suggestions you have are of great use to me! It's time consuming to go to the library or go on Amazon and just use trial-and-error to find a good book when I need help on something.
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: Ken B on September 16, 2014, 10:22:58 AM
No, I understand that -- a scalar is a zeroth-order tensor, a vector is a first-order tensor, etc. I took the undergraduate fluids with the same professor and we derived equations using vectors. I have never dealt with tensors, but he made it sound like the derivations can go much further with tensors than they can with vectors.

Also, by preferring, I was referring to index notation versus the standard vector ('e'-hat) notation that I'm used to for dealing with first-order tensors. The problems on our first homework dealt with vectors, but we had to use index notation to get used to it.

YES!!! The library has the Misner. I couldn't find anything by Weinberg, but right now what I need is a good visual approach especially since this is for a concrete subject like fluid mechanics. I was going to stop by the library to get a book/bio on Webern and another on Messiaen (not joking!), so I'll get this one as well. Thanks -- any textbook suggestions you have are of great use to me! It's time consuming to go to the library or go on Amazon and just use trial-and-error to find a good book when I need help on something.
I muffed the name as I feared
http://www.amazon.com/Geometrical-Vectors-Chicago-Lectures-Physics/dp/0226890481/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=undefined&sr=1-4&keywords=geometric+vectors+tensors (http://www.amazon.com/Geometrical-Vectors-Chicago-Lectures-Physics/dp/0226890481/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=undefined&sr=1-4&keywords=geometric+vectors+tensors)
It's quite useful.
But if you can lug Misner Thorne Wheeler around it's very useful on visualizing. And it's a babe magnet.  ;)
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: EigenUser on September 16, 2014, 04:25:36 PM
I muffed the name as I feared
http://www.amazon.com/Geometrical-Vectors-Chicago-Lectures-Physics/dp/0226890481/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=undefined&sr=1-4&keywords=geometric+vectors+tensors (http://www.amazon.com/Geometrical-Vectors-Chicago-Lectures-Physics/dp/0226890481/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=undefined&sr=1-4&keywords=geometric+vectors+tensors)
It's quite useful.
But if you can lug Misner Thorne Wheeler around it's very useful on visualizing. And it's a babe magnet.  ;)
I wasn't expecting the book to be that big, but I guess that gravitation is a pretty complex subject. I flipped through it so far and the physics looks utterly terrifying, but the math I can certainly handle. I'm sure that it will be useful. I'll see if I can find the 2nd one as well.
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 17, 2014, 02:57:01 AM
"nebulous"
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: EigenUser on September 29, 2014, 03:08:43 PM
I have an exam tomorrow in my engineering math course. I took the class last year and did well, so it shouldn't be bad.

Guess what it's on?

Eigenvalues and Eigenvectors!

...actually, it isn't about finding them, instead covering related things like diagonalization, quadratic forms, solutions by eigenvector expansion, etc. I always panic during exams when finding eigenvectors because I think "Oh no! The rows are linearly dependent! I must have done something wrong!" Then I realize that they are supposed to be linearly dependent, solve in terms of a parameter, set the parameter equal to 1 (that's just how I do it), and feel better. I first learned about eigenthings almost five years ago, but I still panic (though wrongly). Then there is always the case where there is a repeated eigenvalue and I have to worry about getting two eigenvectors from one eigenvalue. I am very comfortable with the concept, though.
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: kishnevi on September 29, 2014, 05:25:46 PM
Attack of the Eigenthings

that would have made a great 1950s sci fi movie, I think.


Well, Nate, may the Eigenforce be with you.
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: EigenUser on September 30, 2014, 12:15:20 AM
Attack of the Eigenthings

that would have made a great 1950s sci fi movie, I think.


Well, Nate, may the Eigenforce be with you.
:laugh: :laugh:  :laugh: Thanks! :)

Our professor calls it eigenhunting. You could fill a dictionary with the number of words accepted by mathematicians that have "eigen" as a prefix. Off of the top of my head -- eigenvalue, eigenvector, eigenspace, eigencondition, eigenproblem, eigenfunction, eigenface (yes, that is really one related to image processing), eigensolution, eigendecomposition, eigenmode, eigenstate, eigenpair, eigenbasis ... eigenetc...

It's a problem that has fascinated me in math since I first learned it. Since I have a bit of a backwards education when it comes to math, I first learned the eigenvalue problem in the context of solving systems of linear ODEs. I didn't think much of it until we started learning phase plane analysis of systems. Then I was intrigued. Why does a system evolve along the direction of its eigenvectors in the phase plane? What is the meaning of this? Then, when I took a class on nonlinear dynamics (still no linear algebra yet!) it made more sense. Then I took classes in linear algebra, system dynamics and controls, and even vector spaces (the latter was way over my head as a non-math major). It all made sense (I'm a very slow learner, so it took many classes for me to "get it"). I must have seen the stuff in 10 different courses by now and it still fascinates me.

What's more is we covered the Sturm-Liouville problem last year (we'll do it again this year since I'm re-taking the class for various reasons). Now we have function spaces? Until then, I had only heard of them!

It's all based off of such a simple problem that could be explained in words to someone even with no mathematical background. Even with the math, the basic problem is a simple computation that a high school student could do (though, they probably wouldn't know that they could). But, it leads to so many things that are just -- well -- beautiful.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/d/a/3/da3ae989b4475b7e0343aad33cc51d8d.png)

An interesting (though not-mathematically-rigorous) visual example:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3c/Mona_Lisa_eigenvector_grid.png)

EDIT: I think it went well. Last year I got an 87/100 which wasn't bad considering the class average was a 57/100. I was irritated with myself for not knowing a proof that the professor specified in the syllabus. I'm hoping for above a 95 this year (my standards are not usually this high, but since it isn't unreasonable since I've taken the class before). I forgot this one thing about quadratic form, but it was very minor. I might have still done it correctly.
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: EigenUser on October 15, 2014, 01:26:24 AM
All this talk on the Boulez thread about how he used the word formant in his own way reminded me of an engineering professor I had a couple of years ago (who is also French) for a graduate dynamics course. He taught us this notation that hadn't caught on in the English language. He calls it "screw theory" and refers to objects as kinematic screws, kinetic screws, action screws, etc. They are basically dual vectors containing (i) a moment and (ii) a resultant. I had no idea where he was getting this from and I couldn't find anything about this online when I was taking the class.

Then, one day he tells us "About that term 'screw' -- I made it up!" He explains that there is no English word for what he is talking about and that the French word for these is torseur. To add to the confusion, there is in fact an English theory called screw theory which looks superficially similar, but it is completely unrelated.

So, I go home that day and google "torseur". Guess what I find -- an in-depth French Wikipedia article on what this guy has been calling "screw theory"!

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torseur

It's so odd that there is no information on this in English. I wonder if he is the only one who teaches it in the US. It is a very useful notation, but it was frustrating not being able to find supplemental information on it (though his notes are very clear).

Ken (or any other math people), have you ever heard of this? By dual vector I don't mean the dual vector space (you know, with the annihilator, etc.). It is literally just two related vectors written as one object. Apparently it is a Lie algebra.
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: Ken B on October 15, 2014, 10:27:27 AM
All this talk on the Boulez thread about how he used the word formant in his own way reminded me of an engineering professor I had a couple of years ago (who is also French) for a graduate dynamics course. He taught us this notation that hadn't caught on in the English language. He calls it "screw theory" and refers to objects as kinematic screws, kinetic screws, action screws, etc. They are basically dual vectors containing (i) a moment and (ii) a resultant. I had no idea where he was getting this from and I couldn't find anything about this online when I was taking the class.

Then, one day he tells us "About that term 'screw' -- I made it up!" He explains that there is no English word for what he is talking about and that the French word for these is torseur. To add to the confusion, there is in fact an English theory called screw theory which looks superficially similar, but it is completely unrelated.

So, I go home that day and google "torseur". Guess what I find -- an in-depth French Wikipedia article on what this guy has been calling "screw theory"!

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torseur

It's so odd that there is no information on this in English. I wonder if he is the only one who teaches it in the US. It is a very useful notation, but it was frustrating not being able to find supplemental information on it (though his notes are very clear).

Ken (or any other math people), have you ever heard of this? By dual vector I don't mean the dual vector space (you know, with the annihilator, etc.). It is literally just two related vectors written as one object. Apparently it is a Lie algebra.

All mathematicians Lie about Screw Theory. What you do with your vector is your own business. Or your own kernel, if you are a member of the dual space. Just watch out for idempotence. Never had a problem with it myself but I hear engineers are prone.


Just a guess but it sounds like a tensor actually.
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: EigenUser on October 15, 2014, 04:56:06 PM
All mathematicians Lie about Screw Theory. What you do with your vector is your own business. Or your own kernel, if you are a member of the dual space. Just watch out for idempotence. Never had a problem with it myself but I hear engineers are prone.


Just a guess but it sounds like a tensor actually.
:D

My professor for vector spaces last year was hilarious. Before rigorously defining something he'd explain it in an intuitive way, often leading to funny analogies that would be pointless on their own, but actually helped a lot when coupled with the standard definition/theorem/proof sequence. One of the memorable ones was for the dual space. "Imagine that you are a vector and you are able to define yourself by everyone who hates you!"
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 21, 2015, 10:32:05 AM
I may just need more coffee. Not much, but some.
Title: Re: n-word Posts
Post by: romboid on September 24, 2021, 11:55:30 AM
n^5 = n * n * n * n * n