Tristan & Isolde - Prelude & LiebestodOf course, Wagner himself called it the Liebestod und Verklarung. I suspect that term will never return to use, though, even though it makes vastly more sense (since when does a Love-Death sound consoling?).
And ... sorry, but I don't like much Tannhäuser.
marvinbrown
But Val the overture to Tannhausser is among the most beautiful peices of music I have ever heard. Granted Tannhauser is hardly Wagner's best opera but it has very fine moments indeed. I have Solti's Tannhauser and love it very much, which recording do you have?
I think it was Bernstein who said that Tristan und Isolde was "the central work of all music history, the hub of the wheel...". Personally, I adore Tristan - just listening to it is one of the best musical experiences of my life.
Is it as important as Berstein thought?
You'll come to know and recognize the "Tristan chord", and recognize that famous first statement of a sixth and two half-steps, they can be spotted making appearances in later' composers works.
Was inititated into the Ring cycle last week, and am watching it in its entirety again this week (Levine's Met DVD).
Prior to this, I was mostly familiar with Tristan und Isolde, as well as the "hits" (you know!).
The "Ring..." is a stunning victory of Art, in my opinion, as is Tristan...Wagner is one of my favorite composers.
I am glad that you have added Wagner to your list of favorite composers. Haffner you should definitely check out Meistersingers von Nurnberg and Parsifal both superb operas and not to be missed. The overture of Meistersingers always lifts my spirits and MY God the congregation chorus at the beginning of that opera.....I shouldn't say any more or I'll ruin it for you :-X.
PS: Two days ago I ordered the Levine Ring Cycle DVD and I can't wait to see it.
marvin
I'm new to this board and glad to discover a page devoted to my favorite composer. At the relatively old age of about 60, seven years ago, after a lifetime of listening spent mostly with Bach, Beethoven and Brahms, Wagner suddenly hit me with force of a lightning bolt. I reeled with ecstasy as I devoured recordings of his operas one after another. Tristan, in the famous Bohm version, had me in thrall for several weeks during which I ate, drank and breathed nothing else, even listening to it on a CD Walkman on the elliptical trainer at the gym, turning the volume higher to drown out the rap and rock music on the speakers. My wife thought I had gone insane, as for months I would speak of nothing but Wagner. This extreme and crazy obsessiveness has settled down to steady love.
I still think of him as the greatest musician in history, with the power to radically revitalize a person's existence. Two orchestral passages from The Ring are my current favorites: Wotan's Farewell to Brunnehilde, and Siegfried's Funeral Music. What irony that an opera composer should revolutionize the symphony, both orchestra and form, as well as the opera. Who else could do it? Who else can cause the heart to leap with joy as high, explore depths as hidden, wrench the emotions almost out of their moorings? The Funeral Music: the most powerful of movements ever, or at least equal to the most powerful. I get chills down my back just writing about it. Next to this, most other music is "mere;" prelude or postlude.
Its GREAT to have another Wagner fan join GMG, WELCOME chaszz. Its never too late to enjoy Wagner's operas (muisc dramas) nor too early (I fell in love with his music at the age of 32). Seigfreid's FUNERAL MARCH is truelly one of the major highlights of the Ring Cycle just like Wotan's Farewell to Brunnehilde. I also love the heroic music of Seigfreid's sword forging scene, the three question exchange between Mime and Wotan as well as the Reinmaden's Rheingold leitmotif. Like you Wagner's music moves me more more than the music of any other composer. Tristan und Isolde is my favorite opera. ACT 3 of that opera is the most emotional music I have ever heard.
marvin
Thank you for your warm welcome, Marvin. I look forward to many exchanges on the subject of the man who is in my opinion not only the greatest musician in history, but a fair bidder for the title of greatest artist in history.
One question: why is Verdi your avatar?
Well, I'm just begining to get into the Wagner operas and it looks like its going to be a lifelong journey ;) I'm chipping away at The Ring and highlights from the other operas which will act as 'signposts' when I dive into the operas proper.
The Wagner movie was great.
The Met/Levine Ring cycle sounds great too, and I think, a good way to start getting into the ring as opposed to sitting down with the long operas. A good way to begin to get a 'handle' on the massive work.
The MET/Levine is the only DVD recording I have of the Ring Cycle. While some people will tell you that it is not perfect I personally found much in it that was attractive:
1) the stage setting
2) the costumes
3) the special effects (I won't tell you what they are for fear of ruining the experience)
4) it had James Morris as Wotan and Jessye Norman as Sieglinde
The stage setting is true to Wagner's intent. This is not a modern adaptation. While the the Solti Ring Cycle (audio cd) has the ideal cast vocally this set is IMHO a good place to start.
marvin
Yes it is. :-[
Look forward to it too. Why Verdi as my avatar? Because Verdi is my other love interest. He epitomizes Italian Opera (rivalling Mozart in my opinion) as Wagner epotimizes German opera
Yes, thats a major factor for me. I'm very interested to view this. :)
You noticed? ;)
Tears of sadness, but I do not want to diminish your enjoyment of your first visual meeting with Wagner's Ring. My very first meeting too was with raven-winged helmets and wolf skin clad Siegfrieds, but I was only six years old. By now I have discovered many different ideas of how to present this monumental Gesamtkunstwerk, and it makes me sad to see the ancient Met Ring still getting so much attention.
That's the spirit and that's the right attitude for starting this fascinating journey. Yes, the Met is basic, a bit on the primitive side, but if you were to start it with the latest concept production, it might make you stop your exploration. Have a great journey, Solitary Wanderer; you won't be too solitary because many Wagner friends here at GMG are ready and willing to help and guide, if guidance you seek. :)
The tone of your post is a little sick, but I agree, I think Wagner is great.
I am suprised you didn't mention Parsifal - it is my favourite opera of his, and one of my favourite operas of all.
Have you ever heard of quoting more than one thing in one post; you have instantly wrecked this thread with a load of posts.
I haven't yet done aught more than listen to some of (mostly) the instrumental music to this; for the most part, I think it some of the best Wagner I've heard!
Oh dear.
Yep, now you've done it, Andy! Might as well just go ahead and lock this thread down. It's obviously, and completely, ruined ;D
Sarge
I consider Mozart, Wagner, and Verdi to be literal Wonders of the World.
Yes, I've just bought it at Amazon and noticed the cover images were the same.
I've been putting off buying it for a year but the time is right!
I think the visual aspect will help with the understanding of the saga. Listening to vocal highlights recently was a bit daunting.
Are they tears of joy or sadness?
Looks like you found yourself another Triumvirate Andy :)!!! I remember when you were telling me about "Andy's Triumvirate" consisting of Beethoven, Mozart and Haydn. What's the common link you ask? Answer: MOZART of course (a testament to that GREAT man's GENIUS )
marvin
Absolutely, Marvin! Mozart slays me each time I take a rest from his music and then go back to it. Many aren't aware that much of his greatest music can be found in his String Trios and Duos. k266 sounds to me like sweetest resignation, and of course the Divertimento k563 is desert island material for me!
As you probably already know,many of the vocal parts Wagner wrote for his characters have their influences from Mozart's Magic Flute and Don Giovanni.
Wouldn't it have been fabulous to have heard Wagner's arrangement of Don Giovanni!!!
What is your favorite Wagner aria, whether for one or more vocalists?
Strictly speaking Wagner never wrote an aria, or an opera either.
Strictly speaking Wagner never wrote an aria, or an opera either. Aria and opera are Italian terms, and Wagner hated Italian opera.
But did he not write operas before he devised the term "music drama"? (Which maybe he borrowed from Italian sources, dramma per musica and all that.)
Though of course, revisionism was a favorite pastime of Wagner's . . . .
Point well made - and taken! ;D
Would you then please tag a name on to those pieces of singing, accompanied by an orchestra? :-\
Ah, leave it to Karl to beat me to the punch. Well, my answer has a nice pedantry to it.
Would you then please tag a name on to those pieces of singing, accompanied by an orchestra? :-\
Are we throwing Rienzi (to say nothing of the early works Die Feen and Das Liebesverbot) out? I think most musicologists, and Wagnerians, would have to agree that those are operas - strictly speaking. In fact, I thought that the transition from grand opera to music-drama happened over the Holländer-Tannhäuser-Lohengrin sequence (c. 1840-1850).
Ah, leave it to Karl to beat me to the punch. Well, my answer has a nice pedantry to it.
Well, I do not consider Rienzi and the other two "operas" works of the Wagner I enjoy. However one chooses to characterize them I don't really care one way or another 0:)
Well, I do not consider Rienzi and the other two "operas" works of the Wagner I enjoy. However one chooses to characterize them I don't really care one way or another 0:)
Beside the point. You agree that he wrote them? ;D
Maybe Matilda wrote them?
Anyway I rarely listen to anything before the Ring.
Holländer and Lohengrin are pretty good but nothing special. Tannhäuser is just a trainwreck altogether. I have no clue what THAT opera is about.
Maybe Matilda wrote them?
Maybe Matilda wrote them?
Wubba-wubba? ;D ;D ;D
The wubba-wubba about which we can be specific, is not the true wubba-wubba :-)
Strictly speaking Wagner never wrote an aria, or an opera either. Aria and opera are Italian terms, and Wagner hated Italian opera.
Where did you get this from? Wagner was influenced by Bellini and declared Rossini to be a genius.
Yasser
As Sarge guessed, I meant aria in the wider, inexact sense of a soloist, or soloists, accompanied by orchestra. My favorite is the quintet from Meistersinger, followed closely by the Spring Song from Walkure.
As for Lohengrin and Tannhauser, I personally love them both. For me its the music that counts most. Both of these have some very glorious music. As a matter of fact, the musical inspiration in Lohengrin rarely if ever flags from beginning to end.
Really? He also thought Verdi was a hack and not much of a composer.
If ACD were still with us he could clarify the question, often asked, if Winterstürme is a true aria.
Next: Winterstürme is indeed an aria, a simple-form aria and Wagner has warned the singers to not sing it as an aria because it might destroy the dramatic import. Why he wrote an aria and did not want it to be sung as aria, this question has no known answer.
Next: Stage works Wagner wrote before Das Rheingold are all operas, loaded with arias etc.
And yes, Wagner held all Italian operas in deepest contempt, but he rather liked Bellini's Norma and Rossini's Il Barbière. Wagner was not influenced by Bellini and never declared Rossini to be a genius.
To get correct answers to questions re. Richard Wagner, all one has to do is consult an expert. Who, BTW. has proved me wrong more than once and I always appreciated learning about one of my favorite composers from a knowledgeable source of everything Wagnerian. :)
I wonder why he is no longer here
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0027-4666%2819070401%2948%3A770%3C231%3ACM%28%3E2.0.CO%3B2-4&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage
Read the paragraph that starts with "As they came away Wagner acknowledged..."
IYasser
Oh let's continue, please, I enjoy this thread because I received a reply to the above link from ACD:
"The person who linked that fragment [...]
I discovered Tristan also when I was the same age as Don Giovanni, and felt the same way about it. I still do!
Tristan's Prelude & Liebestod, a textbook example of building unresolved tension into a mindblowing release, holds a very special place, considered as one of the greatest moments in all music to me.
You'll come to know and recognize the "Tristan chord", and recognize that famous first statement of a sixth and two half-steps, they can be spotted making appearances in later' composers works.
In just a couple of weeks in Houston, I'll be going to an all-Wagner concert and I'm so excited! They just posted the program and I'm most looking forward to hearing several selections from Lohengrin, and especially Die Meistersinger, both of which I have never heard live. No Tristan this time though. ;) But the Der Fliegende Hollander overture more than makes up for it!
It would also be quite interesting to hear Wagner's arrangement of Beethoven's Ninth for larger orchestra. I can't find a recording of it. Does anyone know of one?
I'm having an intense Wagner week as I dive into the complete Ring cycle for the first time.
I'm having an intense Wagner week as I dive into the complete Ring cycle for the first time.
So I'm listening to this;
and this
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AKKRH9MPL._AA240_.jpg)
Yuck, no self-respecting Wagnerian will listen to that garbage. It is an insult to Wagner dumb down to appeal to the lowest denominator.
Me too. Tomorrow I'll listen to the last act of Gotterdammerung and I will have finally listened to the whole Ring, for the first time.
I got the only Ring I have last year (From the Bayreuth Festival in 1952, conducted by Joseph Keilberth), and played some parts as background music while studying then. My objective for the current winter holydays was to listen to the whole ring in detail, with the libretto and translations in hand, and I'm very happy because I'm about to complete it.
I like this Keilberth cycle very, very much, and I don't feel like listening to other sets now. After some google searches I found out that many people list Keilberth's '52 as one of the finest sets available.
I'm getting the famous Solti set, Furtwangler's from 1950 at La Scala, and Keilberth's 1953 at Bayreuth (as I said, I don't feel like trying other sets right now, but I may intend that in the future, and I want to be prepared then).
Do you have any suggestions for more Ring cycles? (or valid reasons for me to abort any of the listed current downloads; aside copyright infringement considerations)
I'm having an intense Wagner week as I dive into the complete Ring cycle for the first time.
So I'm listening to this;
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lGefabD1L._AA240_.jpg)
and this
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/21S1XC3Q70L.jpg)
and this
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AKKRH9MPL._AA240_.jpg)
while reading this
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0500281947.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)
and watching this!
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WP0TM96NL._AA240_.jpg)
I've also recently read this;
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51600P3RCHL._AA240_.jpg)
and
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0486237796.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)
and the two P.Frank Russell graphic novel adaptations :)
"(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AKKRH9MPL._AA240_.jpg)"
SW,
When a friend helped me begin to appreciate The Ring, first he had me listen to Maazel's Ring Without Words; then he had me buy a Ring Highlights CD. There are many. I chose the one conducted by Solti.
Wagner uses voices in his operas as other instruments in an orchestra. The singers do not sing melodies (for the most part - there are exceptions) as we've come to expect in other composers' operas. One of the easiest ways to understand what I am trying to say, is to listen to the music without the singers (The Ring Without Words CD). Then listen to the same music with singers. (You'll need to purchase the highlight CD.)
By listening to the CD's in this order, you will understand how Wagner uses voices in his music. First, you will have heard the music without voices, then with voices.
My experience was that I came to enjoy the music without the voices and didn't see any necessity to add the singers. But once I listened to the singer version, I was amazed how much the voices added to the listening experience, and didn't want to go back to the "incomplete" Ring Without Words. Hope this helps.
Wagner is worth every effort you have to make to learn his music. If you have trouble, let us know.
What about this one?
(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B00000424H/ref=dp_image_0/102-3286311-2011368?ie=UTF8&n=5174&s=music)
You mean this one Manuel ? :
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NZEV35HNL._SS500_.jpg)
Yes. That one.
What I could get from the Amazon samples is that this set is not about loosen excerpts, but motifs are exposed and explained (as in the BBC Discovering music files).
2) There is also a disc that plays on one's computer (in mono) that displays the music (Solti's version), shows the motifs as one listens to them. There may be more features that I have forgotten. Does anyone know the title? I am not home and can't remember it at the moment. When it first came out, it cost $100. It may be out of print now. Can anyone else give the title?
If this has already come up, I apologize, but by any chance does anyone know of an online source for Wagner's leitmotifs? (E.g., similar to this great reference (http://www.ccarh.org/publications/data/humdrum/tonerow/) for Berg, Schoenberg and Webern's tone rows on Themefinder.)
Edit: just found this one (http://www.trell.org/wagner/motifs.html#leitmotifs) which is pretty good. But open to other suggestions, too.
--Bruce
Oh thanks (for both suggestions). Appreciate the info on that Barenboim set (which might entice me to get it).
--Bruce
I had some of the original releases of the Barenboim Ring, and when I learned that the reissue set would have the original libretti, I was most pleased. Often, the reissues just have track listings and a couple essays. It might be a "bargain" set, but it is anything but shoddy in packaging and accompanying materials. The interpretations, too, if you like Barenboim, are splendid.
Was it Barenboim who defied the unwritten law, and performed Wagner in Israel?
Yes, I agree: I hate it when reissues cut corners like that, and especially with libretti (and extensive notes in general). I mean, it's not as if consumers down the line would be a) less interested in these, or b) necessarily have them in their libraries already.
I've only heard Barenboim once in Wagner, in an excerpt with Chicago a few years ago (and can't recall what it was at the moment). I recall liking it, though.
--Bruce
Yes. That one.
What I could get from the Amazon samples is that this set is not about loosen excerpts, but motifs are exposed and explained (as in the BBC Discovering music files).
I don't have it. My first Ring recording was Furtwängler's RAI cycle on LPs,
The Ring Disc: An Interactive Guide to Wagners Ring Cycle
Amazon.com lists one new copy available for $75.00 from one of their sellers:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000001A3A/ref=dp_olp_2/102-5423591-3069720 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000001A3A/ref=dp_olp_2/102-5423591-3069720)
I don't have it. My first Ring recording was Furtwängler's RAI cycle on LPs, which came with a single-LP intro to the cycle identifying the motifs and playing excerpts from the recording. I probably listened to it once, but mostly used Ernest Newman's book on the Wagner operas, which (for the post-Rienzi operas), is a great intro to the works, with info on the sources and compostion each work, followed by a synopsis with musical examples of the leitmotifs:
http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Operas-Ernest-Newman/dp/0691027161/ref=sr_1_1/102-5423591-3069720?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185476047&sr=1-1
Thanks, Wendell
That was the disc I was trying to remember.
I've had that disc on my Wish List for some time. Maybe I should... ;)
I agree that Solti is the best recording for beginners. Later they can choose other versions.
I think the recommended Keilberth Ring is the 1955 version.
I agree with Marvin that the Furtwangler Tristan und Isolde is my favorite version.
I think the recommended Keilberth Ring is the 1955 version.
This is the only set I have so far.
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lGefabD1L._AA240_.jpg)
The price was incredibly good.
The performers all sound up to it so far [I'm only up to disc.5.].
I believe it was the first digital recording of the Ring.
Do you think it is better than his 1952 and 1953 sets?
Do you think it is better than his 1952 and 1953 sets?
The old and long dead conductors deserve their glory and laurels, now how about giving your time and attention to new and very exciting, talentend musicians! ;)
??? ;D
Kent Pappano Der Ring des Nibellungen
Kent Pappano Der Ring des Nibellungen
Well, as I type this I'm listening to the live broadcast from Bayreuth of Die Walküre, conducted by Thielemann.
??? ;D
Pray tell, my friend, where is that broadcast? I tried BBC3 and of course they have The Proms. My local classical station, KING FM does not broadcast Bayreuth! Forget about the local NWPR, they insist on giving precedence to the old man on Lake Woebegone!
Wendell, please rescue me! Thank you! :-*
Really, Keilberth's entire Decca stereo output from the 1955 Festspiele (Der Ring des Nibelungen and Der fliegende Holländer) is worth the effort and expense required to acquire it.I had a chance to sample some of the Keiberth 1955 cycle today at Barnes and Nobles and one thing that annoys the hell out of me is how LOUD the audience was. I mean, come on, shut up already. All the hemming and sighing in addition to the coughs and sneezes. Karl Boehm's cycle is also live at Bayreuth and they had the good common sense to shut their big fat mouths for the most part. And the stereo is certainly nothing to write home about, certainly not as good as some of Reiner's mid to late 1950's RCA recordings. You get pretty much the same cast in the 1953 Krauss Ring which has been nicely remastered lately into excellent mono sound. So is it worth spending about $200 for the Keilberth right now? I think not. BUT I think if the price drops to under $100 it would be worth a try.
The new Trinity at Bayreuth: Thielemann - Watson - Dohmen. ::)
There have been a number of Bayreuth Rings I have listened to, - and the last few forgettable! :-[ but this one is a winner again. Needed one! - Wendell_E, have you recovered? Any thoughts you want to share? -
PSmith08 You are aware of the rebroadcasts of all the operas, so you can catch the ones you missed because of oversleeping! ::)
I had a chance to sample some of the Keiberth 1955 cycle today at Barnes and Nobles and one thing that annoys the hell out of me is how LOUD the audience was. I mean, come on, shut up already. All the hemming and sighing in addition to the coughs and sneezes. Karl Boehm's cycle is also live at Bayreuth and they had the good common sense to shut their big fat mouths for the most part. And the stereo is certainly nothing to write home about, certainly not as good as some of Reiner's mid to late 1950's RCA recordings. You get pretty much the same cast in the 1953 Krauss Ring which has been nicely remastered lately into excellent mono sound. So is it worth spending about $200 for the Keilberth right now? I think not. BUT I think if the price drops to under $100 it would be worth a try.
It's amazing! I only listened to two or three tracks so far, and yet I've fallen in love. The overture to Der fliegende Holländer is playing right now...
I'm just going to disagree, and say: Keilberth has far too much going for it to pass it over, at any reasonable price, in favor of anyone but Knappertsbusch. If the latter set weren't available, then Krauss would be a contender. With Hans Knappertsbusch, though, competing - almost anything is a non-starter.
SW, you may want to take a look at this http://allenbdunningmd.com/RingThemes.htm
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WP0TM96NL._AA240_.jpg)
Last night it was Siegfried Act.1.
Aahh....now this is the reason why I love Wagner so much. Seigfried is easily my favorite of the 4 operas of the Ring Cycle. Look out for the 3 question exchange between Mime and Wotan (disguised as the Wanderer) and of course the Sword (Notung) Forging Scene. These two scenes I keep playing over and over and over again...... powerfull music indeed!!!
marvin
You like that? Personally I think that is one of Wagner's least inspired creations. It is just not musicially very interesting and quite repeititive. It is already a very long Act and the forging makes it just about interminable. That, Amfortas miserables solo in Act III of Parsifal, and the Wotan/Bruenhilde exchange in Act II of Die Walkuere are some of my least favorite Wagner moments. I can't even listen to those anymore.
Oh dear...the sword forging scene has some really remarkable music PW. Hmmm....well to each his own. I am curious though PW what are your favorite scenes of the Ring? (Don't worry I love all of the Ring so I will not crticize your taste ;) ...but I am curious what do you like?)I like Rheingold, all of it, just great drama, fast and furious. I LOVE Act I of Die Walkuere, there is nothing remotely like it in all of opera, especially from Du bist der Lenz on. Of course the final 20 minute of so of Walkuere is truly remarkable also. Siegried I am not too high on, just too many dead spots. The entire first Act is relatively lackluster, not Wagner at his most inspired. It has a tired feel to it. Act III is truly amazing though. The entire Gotterdammerung is quite good although I can't stand the Norn scene or the beginning of Act I where Gunther, Hagen and Gutrune chat away endlessly.
I like Rheingold, all of it, just great drama, fast and furious. I LOVE Act I of Die Walkuere, there is nothing remotely like it in all of opera, especially from Du bist der Lenz on. Of course the final 20 minute of so of Walkuere is truly remarkable also. Siegried I am not too high on, just too many dead spots. The entire first Act is relatively lackluster, not Wagner at his most inspired. It has a tired feel to it. Act III is truly amazing though. The entire Gotterdammerung is quite good although I can't stand the Norn scene or the beginning of Act I where Gunther, Hagen and Gutrune chat away endlessly.
LOL...the three Norns do sound like endless chatter but I find rather interesting how they read about the past present and future as they are weaving the rope of destiny. Rheingold is good throughout and consistent. I think Die Walkure is also consistently good. Gotterdammerung has some areas that are a bit drawn out, my least favorite scene is in ACT 1 the hall of the Gibichungs, as Hagen tries to persuade cunningly Gunther and Gutrune to take Brunnhilde and Siegfried as spouses respectively. I am also left wondering whatever happens to Alberich at the very end of the Ring Cycle, Wagner never really addresses his fate??
marvin
I am also left wondering whatever happens to Alberich at the very end of the Ring Cycle, Wagner never really addresses his fate??
marvin
The Norn scene is totally useless. Is the opera not LONG enough without that scene?
Have to disagree with you there, sorry! Nothing, not one word, not one note is useless in any of the late Wagner works. The scene with Norns tells you all about what happened to Wotan before Alberich takes a swim in Das Rheingold. Try an attentive listening to the words, and if you can't understand the lady's enunciation, maybe you find the libretto. The first Norn too asks the question you asked: "...weisst du was aus ihm ward? . . . referring to Alberich's fate. No, she doesn't have the answer either because just then the rope loses it's tension and gets cut.
Have to disagree with you there, sorry! Nothing, not one word, not one note is useless in any of the late Wagner works. The scene with Norns tells you all about what happened to Wotan before Alberich takes a swim in Das Rheingold. Try an attentive listening to the words, and if you can't understand the lady's enunciation, maybe you find the libretto. The first Norn too asks the question you asked: "...weisst du was aus ihm ward? . . . referring to Alberich's fate. No, she doesn't have the answer either because just then the rope loses it's tension and gets cut.
II can't stand the Norn scene or the beginning of Act I where Gunther, Hagen and Gutrune chat away endlessly.
One-hundred-and-ten percent correct. Wagner is establishing an inexorability to the conclusion: The string of fate has broken, it is indeed the end of the Gods. If you read the text, you will see that Wotan has pretty much fouled every nest, including causing the end of Fate. He destroys der Welt-Esche and prepares the destruction of Walhall and the Gods. Not only do the Norns explain everything that came before, they lay the groundwork for everything that comes after.
The prelude is pretty much necessary for understanding that which comes after. Waltraute's monologue doesn't make as much sense without it, and the finale certainly doesn't work so well - why would Brünnhilde send Loge to Walhall? - without it. Lis was right: there is not a single throwaway note, word, or phrase in mature Wagner.
What a hopeless case you are; I feel sorry for you having such a closed mind and insisting you know better than Richard Wagner. Do me a personal favour: Restrain yourself from making further derogatory remarks about this masterpiece because you might scare away other people seriously seeking for intelligent information about Der Ring des Nibelungen.
What a hopeless case you are; I feel sorry for you having such a closed mind and insisting you know better than Richard Wagner. Do me a personal favour: Restrain yourself from making further derogatory remarks about this masterpiece because you might scare away other people seriously seeking for intelligent information about Der Ring des Nibelungen.
What a hopeless case you are; I feel sorry for you having such a closed mind and insisting you know better than Richard Wagner. Do me a personal favour: Restrain yourself from making further derogatory remarks about this masterpiece because you might scare away other people seriously seeking for intelligent information about Der Ring des Nibelungen.
You are trying to make sense of the libretto and plot of the Ring? It is one complete mess if there ever was one. For awhile I have been trying to put a timeline for things and I have a problem with the following: How long did Siegfried stay on the Rock and how long did Bruennhilde stay on the Rock after Siegfriend left until Siegfried comes back as Gunther.
It appears to me that Siegfried only stayed with Bruennhilde for a night (listening to the duet anyway) and spilled a mea culpa as to why he didn't satisfy her sexually (reading between the lines). You would think a horny youth like him would stay awhile longer for a hottie like a Valkyrie. So the fact that he is LEAVING right away makes no sense.
Now how long does he go wandering on the Rhine? Obviously long enough for "stories" about him (and Bruennhilde in general) to reach the ears of the Gibichung trio. How long would that be, a few months at least right? Considering in those days news travels at the pace of a horse's gait at the most. Now during this time Bruennhilde presumably STAYS in her cave and DOES NOTHING !!! What does she eat? She is mortal right? She has to eat right? What does she do all day. It is a ROCK surrounded by fire, there is nobody and nothing there ! Doesn't she get bored ??? This also makes no sense. From the opera you can deduce that a few months is probably a low estimate. Before Siegfried gets stabbed in tbe back by Hagen he wanted to sing about his "youthful days". Now to me that must be at least 3-5 years ago. Now he couldn't possibly have stayed at the Gibichung Hall after bringing Bruennhilde over for THAT long (they would have found a way to killed him by then) so that must imply he went wandering on the Rhine for a few years at least. All this while Bruennhilde is vegetating on a ROCK. C'mon, let's get real here.
Another thing, the chatty Norns say that Wotan, after having his cane shattered by Siegfried, gathered all the gods in Valhalla, piled wood around the house and wait for his end. This lasts from the end of Siegfried to the end of Gotterdammerung which by my estimate has to be at least a few months. So he sat around for months, if not years ! Does that make any sense?
You are trying to make sense of the libretto and plot of the Ring? It is one complete mess if there ever was one. For awhile I have been trying to put a timeline for things and I have a problem with the following: How long did Siegfried stay on the Rock and how long did Bruennhilde stay on the Rock after Siegfriend left until Siegfried comes back as Gunther.
It appears to me that Siegfried only stayed with Bruennhilde for a night (listening to the duet anyway) and spilled a mea culpa as to why he didn't satisfy her sexually (reading between the lines). You would think a horny youth like him would stay awhile longer for a hottie like a Valkyrie. So the fact that he is LEAVING right away makes no sense.
Now how long does he go wandering on the Rhine? Obviously long enough for "stories" about him (and Bruennhilde in general) to reach the ears of the Gibichung trio. How long would that be, a few months at least right? Considering in those days news travels at the pace of a horse's gait at the most. Now during this time Bruennhilde presumably STAYS in her cave and DOES NOTHING !!! What does she eat? She is mortal right? She has to eat right? What does she do all day. It is a ROCK surrounded by fire, there is nobody and nothing there ! Doesn't she get bored ??? This also makes no sense. From the opera you can deduce that a few months is probably a low estimate. Before Siegfried gets stabbed in tbe back by Hagen he wanted to sing about his "youthful days". Now to me that must be at least 3-5 years ago. Now he couldn't possibly have stayed at the Gibichung Hall after bringing Bruennhilde over for THAT long (they would have found a way to killed him by then) so that must imply he went wandering on the Rhine for a few years at least. All this while Bruennhilde is vegetating on a ROCK. C'mon, let's get real here.
Another thing, the chatty Norns say that Wotan, after having his cane shattered by Siegfried, gathered all the gods in Valhalla, piled wood around the house and wait for his end. This lasts from the end of Siegfried to the end of Gotterdammerung which by my estimate has to be at least a few months. So he sat around for months, if not years ! Does that make any sense?
Derogatory remarks ? I LOVE the Ring, I have more recordings of it than I have fingers. There are parts of it that I am convinced Wagner was under divine guidance when he wrote it. All that doesn't answer the question: what the heck did Bruennhilde do for months or years alone on a rock? Do I have to worship each and every note that he wrote and ignore some of the obvious inconsistences and nonsensible plots?
You don't make any sense. Why don't you sell your Wagner recordings at Ebay and use the income to purchase the awful movie "The Ring of the Nibelung"? I think it's more at your level. You may even like it.
Well he did scare me away, I can tell you! ;D ;D ;D
Ebay, no way. When I die all my CDs will go to the local library so many more people can enjoy them.
SW,
I am so glad that you are enjoying the Ring.
Then, as you don't seem to be able to reach the Ring's plot you can either:
- Die right now,
- Give your recordings away while you are still alive to someone who will appreciate them better.
Eh. He could always keep them, let Wagner do his thing, and appreciate Der Ring des Nibelungen on Wagner's own terms.
I like that solution the best.
Why does it matter? Really. Why? Would knowing what Brünnhilde did for the "months or years" you posit she spent alone on the rock help the story along? Would it make the drama better? Worse? I have a secret for you: Richard Wagner is the boss when you're watching or listening to Der Ring des Nibelungen. That man - one man - created a world in his mind, in a poem, in music, and - finally - in the theater. It's his world. If Richard Wagner did not think it necessary to give us a blow-by-blow account of the lives of the main characters, then it probably was and is not necessary. Such speculation and worrying has no place in his world. You might want such knowledge, but you're only a visitor. Wagner's dramatic instincts, especially in the mature works, are so finely-tuned (perfect, I daresay) that he knew what was best and necessary. He discarded the rest. Wagner's sense of drama was so perfect that his mistakes turned out to be great things. Siegfried is supposed to be the tragic hero of Der Ring, but Wotan enters that role and marches into not only Walhall but the pantheon of great tragic heroes (Oedipus, Prometheus, Orestes, et al.) Siegfried becomes a bit of a simpleminded clod, and Wotan becomes a perfect tragic hero. Some mistake!
I have another secret: Wagner is telling a story. One story. The biggest story ever conceived. He set it to some of the most beautiful, dramatic, and perfect music yet written. What Brünnhilde ate in the cave is not part of that story. You are looking at grains of sand, as Wagner is saying, "Look up here at a - no, the - cosmic drama." This attitude fulfills, in a perverse way, the conclusion to Harry Kupfer's Bayreuth Götterdämmerung - everyone (except for a couple of children and Alberich) is watching TV as the end of the gods happens. No-one notices, as they're all too busy with their own thing. I say this sincerely: turn off the TV, stop trying to outguess the last universal creative genius of West (there have, do not worry, been specific creative genii since Wagner - just no one universal genius), and take the story for what it's worth.
You ask if you have to worship each and every note, despite his inconsistencies. Once you see that those "inconsistencies" are yours, not his, you will want to worship each and every note he wrote - insofar as your religious tradition will allow.
(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WP0TM96NL._AA240_.jpg)
Watched Twilight of the Gods Prelude & Act.1. [1st half] last night.
You're in the home stretch! Hope you have something suitable to celebrate at the end.
--Bruce
Watching them on dvd is definately the way to experience them; opera is intended as a visual medium as much as an audio one.
Absolutely! This is why I get impatient with some opera productions, in which the singing has been given a disproportionate amount of attention, while other elements have been neglected. (If I want to go to a concert - i.e., no visuals - then I'll go to one.) But when the music, sets, costumes, lighting and direction all work together it's magic.
--Bruce
Yes, it will feel like an achievement :)
I'm enjoying it more and more as I go along.
I'm looking forward to discovering his other music dramas.
Watching them on dvd is definately the way to experience them; opera is intended as a visual medium as much as an audio one.
I'm a true believer now ;)
(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WP0TM96NL._AA240_.jpg)
Watched Twilight of the Gods Act.1. 2nd half last night.
Its a powerful moment when 'Gunther' takes off the tarnhelm to reveal Siegfried.
Wait 'till you get to the end of Twilight of the Gods (Gotterdammerung) ;) !
marvin
Thielemann's conducting IMO puts him in the top rank of Wagner conductors of all time.
Have you had a chance to listen to the webcast of this year's Bayreuth Ring with Thielemann conducting? Mind blowing! I have listened to a lot of the Trauermarsch but his tops them all. Yes, is it's a tad longer but every note is chiseled clean and perfectly by the outstanding musicians at Bayreuth under his direction.
For a comparison I listened to Levine conducting it and it's mushy, fuzzy and maudlin.
Whoa! I stopped watching this thread for a long time, because it was frozen at page 5 [at "You're welcome, Yasser"] for several months. But it is sure lively now...
A few comments for the people who are relatively new to Wagner:
Do not neglect Lohengrin and Tannhauser. Some devotees make a big deal about the difference between these 'operas' and the mature later 'music dramas' and important differences there may be. But I listen to Wagner primarily for the music and the music in these two is simply wonderful, scene after scene of inspired melody and variation. They both well repay attentive listening.
I was unable to listen to this Ring,
Unlike most other Eurotrash performances of this work, the Met had the budget to stage the work properly instead of using fake costumes that are frankly embarassing.
SW,
Glad you liked it. I enjoy the way Wagner takes a long time to wind down the music. I need every minute to come back to earth after that terrific journey.
Unlike most other Eurotrash performances of this work, the Met had the budget to stage the work properly instead of using fake costumes that are frankly embarassing.
May I ask you if you have seen in it's entirety, not single photos or even uTube, the productions of Pierre Audi in Amsterdam; the 1976 Patrice Chéreau Bayreuth production; any Jürgen Flimm Ring; how about the Harry Kupfer production, the one from Bayreuth, or the revised one in Berlin? ???
I have seen the awful Boulez/Chereau (who hasn't). They made us watch that garbage when I took an opera class in college. I would not wish that on anybody. Yes I have seen 10-15 minutes clips at a time on Youtube of some of the others. I don't even know which production they are but they are equally awful. There is one when after Donner struck his hammer he falls flat on his back, and the Heda Hedo was sung like "Celeste Aida". There is another one where I actually watched in the store for a good 20 minutes because it happened to be on. The one where Bruennhilde woke up looking like she is a mental patient waking up in an asylum. I can't imaging watching any of these for 15 hrs.
You are referring to the Mac Donal article here (http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_urbanities-regietheater.html) I think which I read with great interest. Thanks for the link.
Bear with me for a second. The link you gave points to a page with a two paragraph article on Wagner and an embedded link to the Mac Donald article. Am I missing something?
emotional level unlike anything else I have heard throughout this past year.This past year I got to know Sawallisch's much underrated Ring Cycle. From start to finish an extremely solid recording with no frenetic or "milk the loud parts" moments along the veins of Boehm and Krauss. The only bad part is Hildegard Behrens sometimes sound rather wobbly vibratowise as Brunnhilde.
The 4 operas of the Ring Cycle, Tristan und Isolde, Die Meistersinger and Parsifal form the backbone (the spine) of my music collection. So how about all you opera fans out there? what Wagnerian operas have you been exploring lately?
marvin
This past year I got to know Sawallisch's much underrated Ring Cycle. From start to finish an extremely solid recording with no frenetic or "milk the loud parts" moments along the veins of Boehm and Krauss. The only bad part is Hildegard Behrens sometimes sound rather wobbly vibratowise as Brunnhilde.
Goodness! What a striking turnaround, PW!I have always liked Behrens. She gets a VERY bad rap because her voice is not really that of a dramatic soprano. But I liked her in the Levine cycle, where she is in better voice (but in the Sawallisch she is more expressive). I think she is analogous to Windgassen, both compensate for vocal shortcomings with artistry and insight.
I remember not long ago you felt a deep apprehension at my recommending this Sawallisch Ring. Remember? I had to fight you tooth and nail as I attempted to draw some much needed attention to this unheralded set.
But now look at us! In agreement. ;)
But, hey, in all seriousness, I feel a certain level of gratitude that someone's actually taken the time and effort to appraise this dark horse Ring. I feel all my carping hasn't been in vain after all...
Yes, I agree about Behrens. Warts and all, though, there's an artistic honesty and commitment to her singing that is certainly respectable. Little offends, and much delights. Overall, what Sawallisch (and the role) demands of her she delivers up in spades.
I think the Sawallisch Ring is like a breath of fresh air...
I have always liked Behrens. She gets a VERY bad rap because her voice is not really that of a dramatic soprano. But I liked her in the Levine cycle, where she is in better voice (but in the Sawallisch she is more expressive). I think she is analogous to Windgassen, both compensate for vocal shortcomings with artistry and insight.
I also believe that he must have spent hours thinking how can I make Tristan a revolutionary work of art and with that Tristan chord I believe he was quite successful.Hours ? There's the understatement of the year. :D
marvin
Wagner was a very daring composer who wasn't afraid to take risks. With Tristan it is very clear to me now that he wanted to do something quite extraordinary and different from the Ring and Meistersinger and I think he had a "stroke of genius" with that piece. I also believe that he must have spent hours thinking how can I make Tristan a revolutionary work of art and with that Tristan chord I believe he was quite successful.
A "stroke of genius" indeed. Tristan was Wagner's most UNconscious work; that is, it came to him in a rush of creative inspiration almost faster than he could write it down, and once he began writing the music in earnest, he completed the work in a matter of months, not years (actually, a total of a little more than a year and a half). You can pretty much bet giving odds that the very last thing he did with this work was to "spen[d] hours thinking how [he could] make Tristan a revolutionary work of art."
Perhaps the emotional turmoil (that love triangle Wagner found himself in with Otto and Mathilde Wesendonck) had some bearing on his creative impulses!
You can pretty much bet giving odds that the very last thing he did with this work was to "spen[d] hours thinking how [he could] make Tristan a revolutionary work of art."
Almost certainly the other way round. That was Wagner's way -- his standard MO -- always.
In rereading my last, I see I should have elaborated a little on my comment:
Wagner's intent in writing Tristan was to produce an easy work that any professional opera company could mount.
So much for good intentions.
It is just that he forgot to write for the voice in such a way that more than a dozen living people have the ability and equipment to sing it.
Mike
In terms of chorus and scene changes, Tristan does fit the bill. In Rheingold and Siegfried, Wagner asks for all sorts of stage effects or monsters. It is just that he forgot to write for the voice in such a way that more than a dozen living people have the ability and equipment to sing it.
It shouldn't be forgotten either that the pit in Bayreuth is covered and that orchestras back then most likely didn't play quite as loud (especially the brass) as they do today.
It's not just the writing for the voice but for the orchestra as well. In the beginning, orchestras and conductors didn't know what to make of the score. It baffled them almost completely.
And I see I used not quite the right word is saying Wagner's intent with Tristan was to create "...an easy work that any professional opera company could mount." A better way to have phrased it would have been to say that Wagner's intent with Tristan was to create a practical work that any professional opera company could mount.
At the time of the writing of Tristan, Bayreuth was merely a gleam in Wagner's eye. Additionally, Wagner wrote Tristan with the ordinary opera house of the time specifically in mind, not his mere dream of an opera house built to his special needs and specifications. That was a primary thought in his setting to work on Tristan when he did.
What Wagnerian operas are you planning on purchasing next year? marvin
Hey, Marvin. My favorite Ring, Tristan, and Parsifal are conducted by Karajan. I'm planning to buy these to add to my Karajan collection:
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w300/front/0/0724356708624.jpg)
Sarge
The Janowski Ring is really quite excellent. It might be a little light for some people, but I find its emphasis on internal and overall architecture quite engaging. While conservative Wagnerians will generally argue that such transparency is not-so-great, and I concede that they might be right
Why might they be right? The scores have a lot of very fine detail, it is pretty obvious that Wagner wanted that to be heard, otherwise he wouldn't have worked it out so meticulously. It is very interesting to see how many examples from the Ring Strauss used when he annotated Berlioz' book on orchestration, and most of these are examples of a very conscious and inventive use of instrumental color for expressive reasons. Wagner didn't just orchestrate in order to build up more or less sound mass in given moments. He used the large ensembles he asked for in a very nuanced way.
What would these conservative Wagnerians say?
An excellent choice with that Karajan Meistersinger Sarge...
Karajan's Meistersinger is the reference recording of the work.
I don't expect Karajan's Lohengrin and Holländer to supercede long-time favorites (Holländer: Dorati and Klemperer; Lohengrin: Kempe and Keilberth) but I have high hopes for his Meistersinger. I thank you both for the encouragement.
Sarge
I don't think it's entirely misleading to expect Karajan's Holländer to supercede each. I thought that was excellent.
I don't think it's entirely misleading to expect Karajan's Holländer to supercede each. I thought that was excellent. I still haven't made up my mind on the Ring..., or Lohengrin however.
Regrettably I have never heard Karajan's Ring. I know its a personal favorite of Sarge's especially Die Walkure. Cost is a very big issue, Karajan's Ring is as expensive as Solti's if not more expensive. As much as I have tried, it has been impossible for me to sample it in any of the stores and the local library does not stock it. I would be very curious to hear how Karajan interprets Siegfried above all else. Does he supply the captivating raw power and aggression that Solti's Siegfried does? Or does Karajan provide a more "docile" approach?
marvin
I'm sure it is, Andy. I've heard few Karajan opera performances that haven't been excellent...and yes, I even include his Don Giovanni ;D
Sarge
Regrettably I have never heard Karajan's Ring....I would be very curious to hear how Karajan interprets Siegfried above all else. Does he supply the captivating raw power and aggression that Solti's Siegfried does? Or does Karajan provide a more "docile" approach?
I'm not being original when I say that Solti and Karajan complement each other perfectly. Truth vs. Beauty.
I prefer Solti's 'Götterdämmerung' and Karajan's 'Rheingold'. 'Walküre' and 'Siegfried' are more or less even, although Nilsson and Windgassen are electrifying in the last act of Solti's Siegfried. BUT- the opening to that same act is grander and more awe-inspiring with the slower Karajan - Solti's is more urgent... In short - you simply need to hear both. And it's a pity your local library doesn't have the Karajan.
Regrettably I have never heard Karajan's Ring. I know its a personal favorite of Sarge's especially Die Walkure. Cost is a very big issue...
That's why we need the '53 Krauss or the '55 Keilberth, too.
I downloaded the Krauss last month (from Classic Music Mobile), and after listening to the last act of Siegfried I was very impressed by his command of structure and his well-judged tempi. Apart from some great singing, of course!
I'm sure it is, Andy. I've heard few Karajan opera performances that haven't been excellent...and yes, I even include his Don Giovanni ;D
I completely understand. I had only one Ring for about five years before I could finally afford a second (and then only because a discount club in Germany had the Böhm for the remarkable price of 99 DM). And then ten years went by before I had my third. It's been a lifelong process of acquisition. But like the Ring itself, there's no need to hurry :)
Sarge
I am still trying to figure out why. I even did a search to find your post about that, but with no success. Was that in the old forum?
I am still trying to figure out why. I even did a search to find your post about that, but with no success. Was that in the old forum?
Pardon the belated response but I have been away on holiday for a few weeks and only now did I get to this post. With regards to "practicality" as it relates to Wagner's operas, in a recent documentary I saw on Wagner it has been suggested that part of the "allure" or "captivation" of Wagner is that his music dramas never really addressed practicalities and in a sense they are completely impossible to perform on stage as Wagner had envisaged. Now whether this applies to Tristan I am not sure but as far as the Ring is concerned some of the stage directions that Wagner calls for are enough to make any opera stage director's job a living nightmare!! Not to mention of course the marathon roles that the singers had to commit themselves to which according to Wagnerian singer Deborah Polaski are "physically exhausting"!!
Why might they be right? The scores [of Wagner's music dramas] have a lot of very fine detail, it is pretty obious that Wagner wanted that to be heard, otherwise he wouldn't have worked it out so meticulously. It is very interesting to see how many examples from the Ring Strauss used when he annotated Berlioz' book on orchestration, and most of these are examples of avery conscious and inventive use of instrumental color for expressive reasons. Wagner didn't just orchestrate in order to build up more or less sound mass in given moments. He used the large ensembles he asked for in a very nuanced way. What would these conservative Wagnerians say?
Wagner's musico-dramatic and symphonic contrapuntal genius is almost always realized in the massing, rarely in details of inner line, and [Karl] Böhm's transparent and razor-edge-precise readings of Wagner wherein the revealing of inner line is prominent are therefore just plain wrong (i.e., un-Wagnerian). They're wrong because while precision and the revealing of inner line in the music of, say, Mozart or Beethoven is to reveal the very soul of the music, precision and the revealing of inner line in Wagner's music serves only to reveal how the sorcerer accomplished his magic. Not a good thing, not a good thing at all, as any self-respecting sorcerer will attest.
Regrettably I have never heard Karajan's Ring. I know its a personal favorite of Sarge's especially Die Walkure. Cost is a very big issue, Karajan's Ring is as expensive as Solti's if not more expensive. As much as I have tried, it has been impossible for me to sample it in any of the stores and the local library does not stock it. I would be very curious to hear how Karajan interprets Siegfried above all else. Does he supply the captivating raw power and aggression that Solti's Siegfried does? Or does Karajan provide a more "docile" approach?
So you know more about what is "Wagnerian" than Böhm, Karajan, or Strauss? Or Janowski, for that matter? Or a whole lot of other conductors who explored that aspect of Wagner's music to a certain degree?
No, the above nonsense quoted by you is just something which people say who only grasp one particular aspect of such a complex musical world and declare it to be the one and only decisive aspect. Very typical for people who don't understand a particular cultural context and only look at it from the outside.
Just one question: can you even pronounce the name "Richard Wagner"?
But - thanks for the free entertainment!
As for Strauss and Janowski, the former was notorious for NOT knowing how Wagner should go, and the latter is simply a Wagnerian nullity and so doesn't count.
So, for who was Strauss "notorious" as not knowing "how Wagner should go"? And if Janowski is a "Wagnerian nullity", what are you? A negative quantity? Who *are* you to make such statements? Where can I get your Ring recording with an orchestra on the level of the Staatskapelle Dresden?
And how do you know what Karajan and Böhm really thought? Did they tell you? Did they ask for your advice?
If you are such an expert for Wagner, you must know a lot about German culture. Do you know what the word "Schwachkopf" means?
So, for who was Strauss "notorious" as not knowing "how Wagner should go"? [...] And how do you know what Karajan and Böhm really thought? Did they tell you? Did they ask for your advice?
Take it to the source, I say. You'll also be able to engage fully with the arguments, as opposed to summaries, quotes, and near-quotes.
You're right about Wagner's envisaged staging of the Ring. It's impossible. Tristan, however, is a piece of cake.
You might find this article on the staging of Wagner's music dramas by our friend ACD to be of some interest.
http://www.soundsandfury.com/soundsandfury/2005/04/staging_ithe_ri.html
Thanks for the tips, but...nah...why should I waste my time discussing such matters concerning my own culture with idiots like him who don't know the first thing about that? Not even the very, very first thing. That doesn't make sense. That guy is just a dumb piece of crap, what in my (and Wagner's) language is called "ein dummes Stück Scheisse", somebody who in the circles of his equally ignorant friends may pass for some kind of expert, but who can't fool anybody who knows just a little bit about that subject. Just a tiny little bit.
I find it highly amusing though how so many people try to appropriate elements of my culture without having even the slightest bit of insights into it, people who really don't know anything about it - at all. That really amuses me. That would be like me pontificating about the fineties of, say, Chinese culture, without even knowing 2 words in their language. Like this "Wichskopf" D. Zalman here who probably can't speak 2 words of German, but he thinks he knows what "Wagnerian" is. Zum totlachen.
Eh. Just throwing that out there.
I find it amusing that Karl Böhm comes in for the ire of our ACD-proxy,
It's no big deal, but I've never thought he was an ACD-proxy (just an ACD).
Did Wagner ever give specific instructions to conductors as to how they should interpret his music?Didn't Wagner always complained that the fast parts of his music is always conducted too slowly and the slow parts are always conducted too fast ;)
I would like to ask, seeing as how an agreement could not be reached over the "correct" way of conducting and interpreting Wagner's music
Did Wagner ever give specific instructions to conductors as to how they should interpret his music?
I find it just silly if someone thinks he has a very strong opinion about a musical culture he obviously doesn't understand and all he has to say to back up his "views" is summarily dismiss artists who are an integral part of that musical culture.
I would like to ask, seeing as how an agreement could not be reached over the "correct" way of conducting and interpreting Wagner's music: Did Wagner ever give specific instructions to conductors as to how they should interpret his music? Also can someone provide a link to ACD's article that address this issue, if available?
Hello Wagner Fans! :)
P.S. Oh, I forgot to mention: I would need to ask some advice, when I have a toothache, could it B originating from Wagner music, should I change to another composer?
Interestingly enough, although Wagner wrote at length concerning just about everything under the sun about which he had the most untoward ideas, and wrote at length about the staging of his operas and music dramas, he wrote very little about how his music should be conducted. There are, however, two publications that do just that. The first is an account written by Heinrich Porges, a member of Wagner's inner circle, the account written at Wagner's express command and approved by him. It's titled, Die Bühnenproben zu den Bayreuther Festspielen des Jahres 1876 (The Stage Rehearsals for the Bayreuth Festival of 1876), and ACD has a detailed post on that publication. It can be read at:
http://www.soundsandfury.com/soundsandfury/2004/07/firsthand_witne.html
There's also the critical extended essay written by Wagner himself titled, Über das Dirigiren (On Conducting), which can be read in an English translation by Edward Dannreuther titled, Wagner on Conducting which can be ordered from Amazon.com at:
http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Conducting-Richard/dp/0486259323/ref=reader_auth_dp
Also, there's another article by ACD on this subject that you may find of interest. It can be read at:
http://www.soundsandfury.com/soundsandfury/2007/06/on_reading_a_sc.html
UPDATE: There seem to be two versions online of ACD's article given in the first link above. I e-mailed ACD asking which one to link. He just responded saying he wasn't aware there were two versions, but went looking after receiving my e-mail and found the second version which was only slightly different from the first. He's now deleted the superfluous version, and placed the correct version at the link given above.
In my rather limited experience of the various recordings of the Ring, only 3 have made a impression enough to fork out close to $100 on each.
Bohm is not among the 3. If you read the reviews on amazon of Bohm's , most all agree the tempos are "TOO FAST" "WHY?" So that closes that possiblity for me. Not sure why i would add a 4th recording, but if there was one to at least come close to the 3 I have, I'd seriously considering getting it off amzon's used list.
And also the Kraus, which has a extremely devoted fan base, "oh man its the one, the finest ever in history, no doubt about it", is not among the 3 I have. I had the Kraus, the casting was close to pemier class, though at times overall slightly less than the three I have. Kraus conducting is just too sloshy to make the Ring come alive and its not just the recessed sound factor.
I also own none from Kna, though i am sure among his many recordings , there may be some of value.
Wagner 's ring should not be appraiched ina finely chisled manner, as some here suggest, the mythical story telling of the work should have this mystical mysteroius mood, but at times of climaxes and cresendos, then is the time to leave the brooding undefined mode and break the clouds to allow bright beams of sunlight.
Takes both modalites of testures.
But Kraus is too sludge like. Not easy to make the low tonal parts to come off as not being cold ,frozen, dragging, takes a special conductor to do this feat of bringing warmth. Furtwangler was able to bring a orch such as the Italian to such a level of effects, no other conductor could manage sucha challenge. The Italians in Wagner? Yes, and with stunning results, A true magician!
So now you know one of the 3 I have found most successful in this most challenging of operatic music.
Obviously the other 2 are from the Bayreuth.
I made some comments on the 3 rings over at amazon.
Strange how if just one cast member is slightly off in form my interest correspondingly falls off.
There's hardly a weak part in these 3 Rings, as yet as least I;ve not discovered any, and doubt there is any.
Relatively new to Wagner and will scan the interesting posts in the topic that I;'ve missed since away.,.
Paulb are you referring to the Furtwangler Ring with RAI or the La Scala?
The RAI Ring was the first complete Ring Cycle I ever bought and despite its less than stellar sound I believe Furtwangler was able to produce a recording well worth listening to. In my opinion that RAI recording is more an achievement in conducting than anything else (singing, orchestra playing etc.) Still I do believe it is not ideal for a first timer to the Ring and I do support AC Douglas' recommendation (in his article) that the Solti Ring is the one to get for newbes to Wagner. I still have not reached a conclusion on my end as to which interpretation is most suited to Wagner's music dramas and I am still studying the articles posted by David Zalman (thanks David) from AC Douglas.
marvin
An excellent choice with that Karajan Meistersinger Sarge...
Karajan's Meistersinger is the reference recording of the work.
I don't think it's entirely misleading to expect Karajan's Holländer to supercede each.
Hey, guys, I just ordered Karajan's Meistersinger and Holländer. Total price: €8.40 :o They are part of this collection 8)
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/1815685?rk=classic&rsk=hitlist
Sarge
Sarge, my envy deepens...
It's the Knappertsbusch 1962 Live recording from Bayreuth. I have been looking for an alternative to the Karajan Parsifal which I have owned for many years. The reviews I read of this Knappertsbusch really impressed me. They made it sound like it is the "definitive" Parsifal on the market. I just couldn't resist buying it. I still haven't opened it yet, which means I can still return for a full refund.
Question: is it really as outstanding as the reviews say it is?
Short answer: Yes. The 1962 recording of Parsifal is, probably, the finest widely available version. Knappertsbusch had a way with Parsifal that is almost unmatched.
Long answer: I am increasingly of the opinion that, if you want a Knappertsbusch Parsifal, then you need to give the 1964 recording (13 August 1964) some serious consideration. It is Jon Vickers' sole (to my knowledge) recording as Parsifal - N.B., it was out on Melodram before its current, "official" Orfeo incarnation. I find Vickers to be a better Parsifal than Jess Thomas, but there is one still greater - of the modern tenors - but that will come in a bit. The sound is better on the Philips release, and Knappertsbusch's Parsifal did not undergo a radical transformation between 1962 and 1964. That's not entirely fair: 1964 was Knappertsbusch's last season on the Green Hill, and this recording shows a fullness and completeness that comes from a man at the end of his life having devoted much of that life to Wagner's greatest score. The choice between the two is a choice of casting and whether you can deal with good, but still live on-site, mid-1960s mono. I think Vickers was a better Heldentenor than Thomas, and I think Vickers conveyed the role with more nuance and subtlety, but that's a subjective judgment.
There is, as I mentioned, one tenor better suited to Parsifal than either Thomas or Vickers, and that is James King. There are two recordings of King as Parsifal: one with Pierre Boulez from 1970 and one with Rafael Kubelík and the SOBR from 1980. The former is, if you like Boulez, essential listening as it is his best-recorded outing in Parsifal. There is an earlier one on Melodram, but its sound is variable and not worth the trouble. Boulez' Parsifal is not for everyone, and - now as then - his Wagner is pretty controversial in general. I would not recommend it if you're not (1) a Boulez completist, or (2) enamored with his Wagner. I would, however, say that Kubelík's Parsifal is the finest on record. It's a shame that the Arts Archive set is not widely available, except on-line. Kubelík has much the same sense of time and motion as Knappertsbusch, and has a way with the score that seems to suspend time and let the music unfold in its own way. Kubelík seemed willing to let Wagner do, through the music, what Wagner wanted to do. That is to say that his tempo, dynamics, and overall sense of the architecture are so well-considered and so respectful of Wagner that its natural luminosity makes other, more conductor-centric interpretations look like, pace Karajan, gaslight. Kubelík "got" Wagner and he "got" Parsifal. His Lohengrin, also with James King, is another sensitive, intelligent, and unobtrusive approach to the score. The sound, Bayerischen Rundfunks in Munich, is better than good. This is the best studio Parsifal, and it demands consideration for the overall prize.
If Thielemann hadn't had Domingo as the eponymous holy fool, I might discuss that work at length. Orchestrally, it's great. Domingo? Parsifal?
Does not compute.
So, Knappertsbusch '62 is great, I prefer Knappertsbusch '64, but recognize that Kubelík is king of the modern recordings. Open the set, listen to it, and revisit frequently. If you can only have one, make that it. If you can have two, get the Kubelík.
WOW PSmith08, thank you for that very informative post. You certainly know your Wagner and I am impressed with your exposure to all these recordings. I will admit that I had not heard of Kubelik's Parsifal. But seeing as how you rate it so highly I will have to go looking for it (its not amazon that I am sure of!)
Based on your post I will go ahead and give the Knappertsbusch a listen and see what comes of it, keeping in mind the '64 and Kubelik for the future.
To all Wagner fans:
I just bought this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513VCG00RAL._SS500_.jpg)
It's the Knappertsbusch 1962 Live recording from Bayreuth. I have been looking for an alternative to the Karajan Parsifal which I have owned for many years. The reviews I read of this Knappertsbusch really impressed me. They made it sound like it is the "definitive" Parsifal on the market. I just couldn't resist buying it. I still haven't opened it yet, which means I can still return for a full refund.
Question: is it really as outstanding as the reviews say it is?
marvin
Parsifal and Der fliegende Holländer are my non-Ring obsessions in the Wagner oeuvre.
Hey, what's your preferred Der fliegende Holländer cd and dvd? Forgive me if you've been asked one too many times.
Does Parsifal have to be a CD or can you accept a DVD?
Of the many Parsifals I have listened to and watched, one has worked it's way to the top, the one performed at the Baden-Baden opera house and conducted by Kent Nagano. The stunning direction is by Nikolaus Lehnhoff, a director who believes in stark, unembellished sets. No, no concept advocate, don't frown. Matti Salminen is for me the best Gurnemanz and of course Waltraud Meier owns the Kundry role. Lehnhoff gives Amfortas a chance to get off his usual stretcher, an opportunity Thomas Hampson uses to move about while singing as only he can.
Give it a try!
If Thielemann hadn't had Domingo as the eponymous holy fool, I might discuss that work at length. Orchestrally, it's great. Domingo? Parsifal?
Does not compute.
Really not? Or could that be a foregone conclusion: "Italian singer=can't sing Wagner"? Just asking, I haven't heard the recording.
My issues with Domingo in Parsifal are really two-fold. First, he was 65 years old when he did those Vienna shows. I am sorry, but hearing the Flower-Maidens try to seduce Parsifal, singing "Komm, holder Knabe" strikes me as supremely silly when the "holder Knabe" is pushing 70 years old.
Thanks for elaborating! BTW, I always thought that Domingo was Mexican, but I looked it up and found he was actually born in Spain. We learn new things every day. But I think you understood that I meant someone who is mostly associated with Italian repertoire and singing style.
Yes, that is a little silly. Maybe they should have sung "holder Knacker"* instead.
*"Knacker", literally "cracker", is a common demeaning expression for old people in German, probably on account of their joints cracking.
A concert performance, maybe even with the Münchner Philharmoniker, would have made more sense.
Why "even"?
*"Knacker", literally "cracker", is a common demeaning expression for old people in German, probably on account of their joints cracking.
I probably used "even" in the sense of the OED definition 9(b), "Attached to a word or clause expressing time, manner, place, or any attendant circumstance." Definition 9 is, in full, "Intimating that the sentence expresses an extreme case of a more general proposition implied (= Fr. même). Prefixed (in later use often parenthetically postfixed) to the particular word, phrase, or clause, on which the extreme character of the statement or supposition depends." So, then, the concert performance would be the general proposition, and the concert performance with the MP would be the manner in which the general proposition would be executed.
I could get really slippery and say that I was using an archaism pursuant to OED def. 8, "Prefixed to a subject, object, or predicate, or to the expression of a qualifying circumstance, to emphasize its identity. Obs. exc. arch. Also in 16-17th c. (hence still arch. after Bible use) serving to introduce an epexegesis; = ‘namely’, ‘that is to say’."
Or, we could just agree that I used "even" in the sense that such an arrangement would be highly non-trivial, and pursuant to OED def. 9(c).
My fiancee was in the other room saying her Rosary when she heard me making ooOOOoooOOOoooooOOOOOooo sounds. She came out, saying I interrupted her. She was weirded-out that I might be ogling some pretty girl on the internet. But no, I couldn't help but be reduced to drooling when I saw Marvin's Parsifal acquisition. Marvin, that is one extremely cool recording I'm dying to have.
Haffner, I am so sorry to have created a "potential" problem with your loved one- not that Wagner's music could ever replace the love of a woman (could he??), but yes you might want to jot this recording down as well as the '64 Knapp (read PSmith08's review) as future purchases. I must admit that I discovered this 1962 recording by accident. I really did not need another Parsifal (I have Karajan's recording as well as the Levine DVD and have seen countless others) but this 1962 Knapp Parsifal was screaming: Buy me!! Buy me!! I just couldn't resist. Tonight I shall listen to it.
marvin
I think Wagner wrote a short romp about what happens when someone forswears love for material gain.
I think I know it. A delightful miniature.
I think I know it. A delightful miniature.
I think Wagner wrote a short romp about what happens when someone forswears love for material gain.
I think I know it. A delightful miniature.
Yes 14+ hours that seem to go by in minutes ;).
Really a marvel of economy of form it is. Indeed, only rarely has someone said so much so briefly.
I see I'm not the only one here who loves irony. Y'all give the lie to the common belief that Wagnereenies have no sense of humor!
I see I'm not the only one here who loves irony. Y'all give the lie to the common belief that Wagnereenies have no sense of humor!
Wagner is what happens to you if you don't play sports as a child.
How did you know?! ???
J'accuse! (Myself, too)
Wagner requires a personality that is rarely forged on the baseball diamond, gridiron, or pitch.
Yes 14+ hours that seem to go by in minutes ;).
marvin
J'accuse! (Myself, too)
Wagner requires a personality that is rarely forged on the baseball diamond, gridiron, or pitch.
By the way Marvin I think you were asking about the Bach cantatas a while back and whether you'd got the measure of them or not. Well I do not think they're invested with Bach's greastest thought- they're good but not great music, as you sensed to begin with...
By the way Marvin I think you were asking about the Bach cantatas a while back and whether you'd got the measure of them or not. Well I do not think they're invested with Bach's greastest thought- they're good but not great music, as you sensed to begin with...
That's a good price- I'll be having a look on Amazon.
Marv, I notice you have the Knappertzbusch Parsifal, I've heard it, along with the Levine and Jurowski live,
Well, I do think they're invested with some of Bach's greatest thought. Not all of them, but many, and not necessarily the so-called "popular" ones. And I've heard all 200 of them, not just the 30 Marvin knows and has apparently "given up" on. I spent $240 USD for the entire Harnoncourt/Leonhardt set from Berkshire Outlet, or about $4 a CD, and no purchase of mine was ever better. At their finest they're great and not just good music, no matter what Marvin sensed to begin with.
I have my doubts about the musical sense of anyone who is not moved by the Bach cantatas at some level or another. Listening to BWV 34, "O ewiges Feuer, o Ursprung der Liebe," for example, and not seeing a genius at work is worrisome. No, Bach's cantatas are not "invested with Bach's greatest thought." They are Bach's greatest thought. A project that massive, that wide-ranging, cannot be but one of the greatest monuments to religion in the Western tradition.
Absolutely. Over a period of about 4 months, I went through the entire 60-CD set of sacred cantatas in BWV sequence, and the experience was revelatory. Any number of previously unknown treasures.
Sean, was this Vladimir Jurowski? And where did you see it live? Do you know if it is available on CD or DVD? I couldn't find any record of him conducting any Wagner. And you are too young to have attended live performances by Vladimir's father! :)
Gentlemen...please...this is a thread about Wagner not Bach's cantatas. Let's stick to discussing Wagner shall we!
marvin
I didn't bring it up. But having seen the comment, I wasn't going to let it go unanswered.
Zing.
In any event, let's try discussing Meistersinger without something more than a passing reference to Bach.
Are you talking about a long pass or a short pass? It's good to know the parameters.
Well, if the defense is particularly skilled at stopping the run, I'd say a screen pass with the tight end running around to receive and get at least the conversion. If we can fake the defense out well enough, I'd say TD.
I remember a game this year where the opponent ran the screen often enough to get us expecting it and defending appropriately, only to go for the long pass. That game was won on a last-second field goal by a kicker making his collegiate debut. We were tied 21-21, and it looked like we were going to run it into OT and salvage the situation there. The opponent had an incredible drive, and got them within a long FG range. The guy hit it. My stomach hit the deck when I saw it go through the uprights. 24-21.
My sympathies. Any chance that rookie might switch to your college?
Zing.
In any event, let's try discussing Meistersinger without something more than a passing reference to Bach.
This thread is about Wagner, not football! $:)
Well one of the many highlights of Die Meistersinger is the transition from the overture to the vocal part of the opera. That overture is wonderfull and after roughly 10 min it reaches a climax and suddenly ends, almost unexpectedly and we find ourselves in a church listening to the chorus of the congregation singing the service's final choral, " Da zu dir der Heiland kam"- "When the Saviour came to thee", the music is so gloriously "holy" I am sure J.S Bach would have approved of it! How's that for "without something more" than a passing reference to J.S. Bach PSmith08?
Looking forward to seeing Tristan und Isolde at the Met in March, with the following cast. It might be my favorite Wagner opera.
Conductor: James Levine
Isolde: Deborah Voigt
Brangäne: Michelle DeYoung
Tristan: Ben Heppner
Kurwenal: Eike Wilm Schulte
King Marke: Matti Salminen
I love this production, which I've seen once before. (Not everyone agrees, as these Amazon comments on the 2004 DVD (http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Tristan-Dalayman-Ketelsen-Metropolitan/dp/B0000CGV0P/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1201273450&sr=8-1) show.) But if anything this cast is even better (IMHO) than the one on the DVD.
--Bruce
Yes, when Eaglen and Heppner first did it, there were a number of snide remarks. (There was also a rather unflattering photo in the paper, with the two of them and a large rock, making all three look pretty much the same.)
--Bruce
The complete cycle on one disc. Solti's famous version.
You might like to know that it was the Havergal Brian Society that sponsored Jane Eaglen's first recital - in the Purcell Room on the (London) South Bank, where she sang songs of, among others, Havergal Brian. That was on 1 November 1985. I still have the booklet somewhere.
Jezetha, you recommend I should get acquainted with Brian's work? Never heard a note of his! :-[
Am I the only person here who feels that the Ring isn't long enough :o?? marvin
Wagner is extraordinarily masculine music- put it on before you take your girl out, murderously decisive, thrusting, ruthless, intuitive, dark, domineering.
Marv, I notice you have the Knappertzbusch Parsifal, I've heard it, along with the Levine and Jurowski live, but I know it from the Karajan, which is entirely in a class of its own.
How good is the Levine? I've been eyeing it recently. I actually liked alot of his Ring...though it's hard to listen to some of it after the Solti.
Hi Haffner
Levine's a committed Wagnerian, often shedding new light and colour, though without the most overarching mind to fully contain the great paragraphs. His Good Friday peroration music in Parsifal is superb, finding more strangeness and mystery in the fabulous harmonies than Karajan.
The Karajan otherwise though is entirely in a class of its own with no serious competitors: one of the greatest of opera recordings.
Nobody listened to today's Walküre? :'(
I listened to about two minutes- didn't like the conducting or the singing, or the whole attitude, and I'd say opera's in as much trouble as the rest of art. Things are on the surface, performers are melodramatic and unserious, and what's happened to the quality of the announcers, the analysis and the Texaco quiz? That quiz used to be very impressive, now its just drivel...
Nobody listened to today's Walküre? :'(I was there. It was fabulous. Deborah Voight's Sieglinde was feminine and affectionate. Her diction and acting was excellent. Petrenko's Hunding was youthful but very convincing. He also had a very intimidating stage presence. Siegmund wasn't vocally very impressive but he and Voight had beautiful chemistry. James Morris' Wotan, well what can you say, I know you don't like him but I think he pretty much owns this role. His reading is much more subtle than 20 years ago. Now it is angst fill and much less angry and petulent. I am not in love with Gasteen's Brunnhilde, vocally her top note is about an A and she is constanly flat, and her acting is pretty superficial. But in this day and age you have her, Polanski, Eaglen, and that's about it.
Hi Haffner
Levine's a committed Wagnerian, often shedding new light and colour, though without the most overarching mind to fully contain the great paragraphs. His Good Friday peroration music in Parsifal is superb, finding more strangeness and mystery in the fabulous harmonies than Karajan.
The Karajan otherwise though is entirely in a class of its own with no serious competitors: one of the greatest of opera recordings.
How could you even arrive at such a conclusion--or for that matter, any conclusion--hearing two minutes of it? ::)
--Bruce
Nobody listened to today's Walküre? :'(
I listened to about two minutes- didn't like the conducting or the singing, or the whole attitude, and I'd say opera's in as much trouble as the rest of art. Things are on the surface, performers are melodramatic and unserious, and what's happened to the quality of the announcers, the analysis and the Texaco quiz? That quiz used to be very impressive, now its just drivel...Oh come on ! Maazel has been conducting Wagner for 40 years for crying out loud. He was conducting at Bayreuth before you were even born. I'd say he knows a thing or two about Wagner. So he is not as over-the-top as Solti or as focused on exacting every detail of the score as Karajan. How do you come up with the performers being unserious? That is an accusation, it questions their professionalism. I can guaranteed you that every single one of the singers, Ms. Voight, Ms. DeYoung, Mr. Morris, etc, etc., plus 100+ members of the Met Orchestra worked their butts off to bring this treacherously difficult music out to be the unbearably beautiful piece of art that it is. Now you may or may not like their voices, that is your right, but please don't question their professionalism and work ethics.
That's interesting.Where did you see Tristan in 1999?
Best of luck with the Tristan. As the central work in Western art it needs a very understanding and serious mind to do it justice. I saw it in 1999 and that remains one of my most significant life experiences, but I'm not expecting to have that repeated. Would be nice to go to the Met someday though.
And it was in German of course. I wouldn't bother with anything else, especially as the words are so integrated in the music, even affecting the harmony at times.
How do you know? You don't understand German. Because you read that somewhere? You shouldn't blabla about stuff you don't understand. Well, OK, that's all you do all the time. Schwachkopf.
the central work in Western art
Until I read this, I never realized that being a consummate idiot requires talent!
Yeah you're right, maybe it was Poynesian.
When everybody gets back to the topic - that's the line on the top, next to Subject: "Re. Wagner's Valhalla", - this thread will get unlocked.
$:)
It is harder than it looks. I have tried to do it several times and always failed.
Exactly my point. To you, it wouldn't make a difference. Don't you feel like a complete idiot when you pontifcate about stuff you don't even understand?
When everybody gets back to the topic - that's the line on the top, next to Subject: "Re. Wagner's Valhalla", - this thread will get unlocked.
$:)
I listened to about two minutes- didn't like the conducting or the singing, or the whole attitude, and I'd say opera's in as much trouble as the rest of art.
Chandos are preparing to issue a BBC recording of a performance in English of Meistersingers conducted by Reginald Goodall.
Chandos are preparing to issue a BBC recording of a performance in English of Meistersingers conducted by Reginald Goodall.
This was one of a series of performances that were very highly thought of. It will be interesting to hear whether it is a case of rose tinted glasses.
Mike
It'll be a box with ten CDs, right Knight? ;D
Sarge
Chandos are preparing to issue a BBC recording of a performance in English of Meistersingers conducted by Reginald Goodall.
This was one of a series of performances that were very highly thought of. It will be interesting to hear whether it is a case of rose tinted glasses.
Mike
Mike I don't think I like the idea of Wagner's operas being sung in English. Not sure if others on this forum would agree with me ???
As an aside. For a long time I had a CD issued by Chandos of most of the final act of Gotterdammerung in English and conducted by Goodall. It was a studio performance. Someone removed it from my collection. For a long time I tried to get a replacement. Then in London a few weeks ago, I found it in a bargain bin, just one copy with my name on it. It was as good as I recalled.Flowing and dramatic, very well sung, (men's chorus apart), it is now happily restored to me. I probably have about 120 Wagner discs, most of complete works, but this one sticks out. I much prefer it to the live discs by Goodall as I so dislike the recessed sound on them. The balance on this long extract is excellent.
Mike I don't think I like the idea of Wagner's operas being sung in English. Not sure if others on this forum would agree with me ???.
marvin
Sean's contention about the cadential and harmonic bases being linked to the structure of the German language might have something to it.
I read once in a (somewhat controversial, I later found out) study about the genesis of the 'Ring' by Curt von Westernhagen that Wagner's harmony really follows the syntax of his verse - so, for instance, if a sentence isn't finished, he uses a half-cadence. But perhaps this is word-setting as it should be? I don't know about Mozart's practice. Or Verdi's, for that matter.
You are talking about the Goodall Ring Cycle I suppose. I can tell you few outside of England can ever entertain the thought that it is even of marginal quality. The singing is okay. Rita Hunter's Brunnhilde is actually a lot better than some of the also-rans they have singing the roles (like Jane Eaglen or Eva Marton). The problem I have with that production is the conducting and orchestral playing. Let's forget the fact that it is slow, and I mean glacially slow (some 3 hours longer than the Boehm for example), the orchestral execution is so bad that I would go as far to say even the dreaded RAI Orchestra under Furtwangler plays this music better. The strings are scratchy and imprecise, the brass reticent, and there are countless instances of ensemble slackless. Let's assume for a moment that Goodall had ample rehearsal time, after awhile you just say to yourself: okay, forget it, they just can't play this music, or this music is beyond Goodall's iffy conducting ability There is zero color or character from the orchestra. If you compare to any of the mainstream Rings out there you don't even recognize it is the same music.
I haven't had alot of experience hearing the Ring in English (just some of the Remedios), but what I have heard tends to be below standard overall. Of course, I'm keeping in mind it may have been myriad other factors, and perhaps someone can help me with this.
You are talking about the Goodall Ring Cycle I suppose. I can tell you few outside of England can ever entertain the thought that it is even of marginal quality. The singing is okay. Rita Hunter's Brunnhilde is actually a lot better than some of the also-rans they have singing the roles (like Jane Eaglen or Eva Marton). The problem I have with that production is the conducting and orchestral playing. Let's forget the fact that it is slow, and I mean glacially slow (some 3 hours longer than the Boehm for example), the orchestral execution is so bad that I would go as far to say even the dreaded RAI Orchestra under Furtwangler plays this music better. The strings are scratchy and imprecise, the brass reticent, and there are countless instances of ensemble slackless. Let's assume for a moment that Goodall had ample rehearsal time, after awhile you just say to yourself: okay, forget it, they just can't play this music, or this music is beyond Goodall's iffy conducting ability There is zero color or character from the orchestra. If you compare to any of the mainstream Rings out there you don't even recognize it is the same music.
For Goodall cults only.
Sean's contention about the cadential and harmonic bases being linked to the structure of the German language might have something to it.
Maybe. Or maybe not. That is not the point here. The point is that since Sean doesn't understand German, he shouldn't blabla about stuff like that.
Traveling to Germany this summer? I read about just the place for all devoted Wagnerians to visit. A group of Wagnerians gathered around the conductor Wilhelm Keitel and decided to present this September the Ring des Nibelungen on four consecutive days on a branch of the Rhein near Speyer in a venue built for 2000 visitors. The building is designed by architect Matteo Thun and constructed out of wood and canvass. Singers have not been chosen yet, the organisers have to sell enough tickets first; € 3000 to € 15000 per packet. If the dream becomes reality then Wagner's stage directions will be followed to the letter and at the end of Götterdämmerung the building will be set afire. The next evening Bruckner's Symphony No. 9 will be performed at the ruins. ::)
Traveling to Germany this summer? I read about just the place for all devoted Wagnerians to visit. A group of Wagnerians gathered around the conductor Wilhelm Keitel and decided to present this September the Ring des Nibelungen on four consecutive days on a branch of the Rhein near Speyer in a venue built for 2000 visitors. The building is designed by architect Matteo Thun and constructed out of wood and canvass. Singers have not been chosen yet, the organisers have to sell enough tickets first; € 3000 to € 15000 per packet. If the dream becomes reality then Wagner's stage directions will be followed to the letter and at the end of Götterdämmerung the building will be set afire. The next evening Bruckner's Symphony No. 9 will be performed at the ruins. ::)
Well, they are realising one of Wagner's earliest ideas - performing the 'Ring' on four consecutive days in a purpose-built theater, which is broken down afterwards... This was the germ of what we now know as the 'Bayreuther Festspiele'.
Traveling to Germany this summer? I read about just the place for all devoted Wagnerians to visit. A group of Wagnerians gathered around the conductor Wilhelm Keitel and decided to present this September the Ring des Nibelungen on four consecutive days on a branch of the Rhein near Speyer in a venue built for 2000 visitors. The building is designed by architect Matteo Thun and constructed out of wood and canvass. Singers have not been chosen yet, the organisers have to sell enough tickets first; € 3000 to € 15000 per packet. If the dream becomes reality then Wagner's stage directions will be followed to the letter and at the end of Götterdämmerung the building will be set afire. The next evening Bruckner's Symphony No. 9 will be performed at the ruins. ::)
To truly follow all of Wagner's instructions though, more has to be done and I am holding off with my ticket purchase until I know if the organisers will have Brünnhilde ride Grane into the flames and also divert part of the Rhein to flood the scene!
Marvin, have you run the ticket price through the currency conversion table? It's from $4,347.00 to $21,734.00! ::)
:o :o :o I missed that part, well with all the excitement and all I didn't think twice about the price. I am however willing to settle for seats at the concession stands if there are any!!
marvin
Mike,
I think the recording dates from 1995 and was the gala opening concert of the NYPO's 153rd season.
As Jessye Norman had already started to move more towards the mezzo repertoire by the early 1990s, its perhaps not surprising that her top notes are not secure.
Jon
Indeed she was. For all the talk about no suitable Siegfried and Brunnhilde nowadays, how about the lack of Siegmunds and Sieglindes out there. You best Siegmund nowadays is probably Placido Domingo. Sieglinde I don't know, I do know there are a lot of singers that have no business singing this role (just check out the Amsterdam Ring or the one on Naxos in Stuttgart and you'll know what I am talking about.
She's an amazing Wagner singer, one of my favorites! She was a fantastic Sieglinde in Levine's Met.
Indeed she was. For all the talk about no suitable Siegfried and Brunnhilde nowadays, how about the lack of Siegmunds and Sieglindes out there. You best Siegmund nowadays is probably Placido Domingo. Sieglinde I don't know, I do know there are a lot of singers that have no business singing this role (just check out the Amsterdam Ring or the one on Naxos in Stuttgart and you'll know what I am talking about.
Domingo in a Wagnerian opera are you sure that is a good idea PW??
marvin
Just throw aside your preconceptions and just listen:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mwKhngpN0dk (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mwKhngpN0dk)
He is the greatest Siegmund probably in the past 10 or 15 years. Nobody sings it with so much power and expression as he does.
(gotta love W. Meier as Sieglinde also, not the best of voices but boy a great actress).
No sh*t he is good.
Damn, this is good!
Just throw aside your preconceptions and just listen:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mwKhngpN0dk (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mwKhngpN0dk)
He is the greatest Siegmund probably in the past 10 or 15 years. Nobody sings it with so much power and expression as he does.
(gotta love W. Meier as Sieglinde also, not the best of voices but boy a great actress).
OK PW you win! Are you happy now??
Powerfull very powerfull! I didn't know Domingo had in him to sing Wagner that well.
marvin
If you are interested go to metopera.org and click on the link for Rhapsody and you get 25 free plays (you have to download the player). You can listen to a broadcast from 2005 of Domingo singing Siegmund with James Levine conducting. 25 free plays should get you through the entire 1st act and whatever other scenes Siegmund appear in. You also get the gleaming soprano of Deborah Voigt singing Sieglinde as a bonus. The quality of the audio is excellent.
I'm really impressed, and I'll be checking out his Tristan and Lohengrin as well now.
If you are interested go to metopera.org and click on the link for Rhapsody and you get 25 free plays (you have to download the player). You can listen to a broadcast from 2005 of Domingo singing Siegmund with James Levine conducting. 25 free plays should get you through the entire 1st act and whatever other scenes Siegmund appear in. You also get the gleaming soprano of Deborah Voigt singing Sieglinde as a bonus. The quality of the audio is excellent.
Also when was the last time you hear R. Muti put in such a good performance at the pit? This guy is actually enjoying it as much as the audience.
The Krauss is okay. I suppose they can never make it sound all that great (the Gala and the new Opera D'oro sound almost the same to me) and has some really sloppy orchestal execution moments (the prelude to Act III is a total mess). BUT the best Siegmund ever Ramon Vinay is worth the set alone.
I do have a really good Cosi Fan Tutte with Muti conducting in what I believe is the same pit. Live dvde, and a good one. But now I want the Domingo Walkure!
I spent hours upon hours this month checking out the Krauss vs. the Karajan vs. the Solti Die Walkure. Lucky I've had members here help me to obtain the HvK and Krauss (terrific recordings and performances!).
BUT the best Siegmund ever Ramon Vinay is worth the set alone.
But now I want the Domingo Walkure!
So do I! PerfectWagnerite, where did you get the Muti/La Scala/Domingo DVD? I searched for it and could not find it. Be a sweetheart, please and share with us! :-*Who me??? I don't have it. I just gave a link to where you can see it on youtube. If it is out there I would be the first lining up to buy it. The picture and sound looks too good to be a pirate. I was hoping you might know since you are much more knowledgeable about operas on dvd.
That one is pretty good too, except Janowitz is the wrong voice for the role. Sorry, Janowitz has a loveley voice, but much too light for the role. She is much better as Eva in Meistersinger for example. IF you like Vickers he has a much better partner in Gre Brouwenstijn in the Leinsdorf Walkuere (http://www.amazon.com/Die-Walkure-Dig-Wagner/dp/B00006469P/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1203423389&sr=8-2).
Love the Krauss! And I'm completely with you on the Vinay...the guy was a MONSTER. But my favorite Act I is the Karajan. You hate me.
IF you like Vickers he has a much better partner in Gre Brouwenstijn in the Leinsdorf Walkuere (http://www.amazon.com/Die-Walkure-Dig-Wagner/dp/B00006469P/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1203423389&sr=8-2).
That one is pretty good too, except Janowitz is the wrong voice for the role. Sorry, Janowitz has a loveley voice, but much too light for the role. She is much better as Eva in Meistersinger for example. IF you like Vickers he has a much better partner in Gre Brouwenstijn in the Leinsdorf Walkuere (http://www.amazon.com/Die-Walkure-Dig-Wagner/dp/B00006469P/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1203423389&sr=8-2).
I bought the Leinsdorf recently; pretty good. I am a Vickers fan and I prefer this version of Act 1 to Karajan's; as the latter mauls some of the tempi. Also, in the later acts, I prefer Nilsson to Crespin; mind you, I prefer Foster-Jenkins to Crespin. I have never been able to 'get' her.
I still enjoy the Karajan version a lot and would never get rid of it. The Leinsdorf is, I agree, underrated.
Mike
Also, in the later acts, I prefer Nilsson to Crespin; mind you, I prefer Foster-Jenkins to Crespin. I have never been able to 'get' her.Apparently neither did HVK, so he got rid of her in favor of Helga Dernesh ;)
I also like this one (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wmiFkQSQHA8), cool trick with the fire at the end.
Also interesting is that Domingo's frequent Sieglinde partner Waltraud Meier has never sung the role at the MET. SHe has sung pretty much everything else there but not this role, which she has sung pretty much everywhere else.
Or Isolde. Meier has sung in Die Walküre at the Met, but back then she was singing Fricka. She's scheduled to be one of the Sieglindes next season, when the Met's Otto Schenk Ring production has one last viewing before it's retired.Yeah, no Isolde at the MET for Frau Meier either, which probably isn't a big loss for us as she is nowhere vocally capable of tackling that role. But I would definitely get tickets to see her Sieglinde next season. Do you know what the rest of the cast is? Or where do I find out?
Yeah, no Isolde at the MET for Frau Meier either, which probably isn't a big loss for us as she is nowhere vocally capable of tackling that role.
PW for what its worth I have this recording of Meier as Isolde and I find her performance enjoyable. Is she a Flagstad? No. but I kind of like her in the role of Isolde:On your DVD it's Frau Meier alright, but its Johana Meier. I am not sure whether she is related to Waltraud. It's been a while since I have watched that DVD and I don't remember much about Johana.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pkJspEzzL._SS500_.jpg)
marvin
On my LVD cover it's Johanna Meier and as I remember it's not the Domingo partner Waltraut! I had a Waltraut Meier documentary on DVD and don't recall her mentioning a singing sister. ;)You mean Waltraud ? Waltraut is Bruennhilde's sister, Waltraud is the singer ;D
Yeah, no Isolde at the MET for Frau Meier either, which probably isn't a big loss for us as she is nowhere vocally capable of tackling that role. But I would definitely get tickets to see her Sieglinde next season. Do you know what the rest of the cast is? Or where do I find out?
Thanks Wendell. Looks like a complete Ring Cycle next year. That ought to be something. When they list Christine Brewer/Lisa Gasteen (Brünnhilde) does it mean the first is more likely than the second or is it still up in the air?
Also noticed Tomlinson singing Fafner/Hagen/Hunding. That ought to be something seeing Morris and Tomlinson on stage together during Rheingold bellowing at one another.
And Morris will get to kill his competition in Walküre! ;DYeah! "Geh...GEHHHHHH !!!!!".
You mean Waltraud ? Waltraut is Bruennhilde's sister, Waltraud is the singer ;D
And Morris will get to kill his competition in Walküre! ;D
On my LVD cover it's Johanna Meier and as I remember it's not the Domingo partner Waltraut! I had a Waltraut Meier documentary on DVD and don't recall her mentioning a singing sister. ;)
Ok Lis and PW now I am confused ??? how many Wagnerian soprano singers are there with the surname MEIER??Not sure, the only one I know is Johana Meier. Waltraud is really a mezzo who tries to sing the dramatic Wagnerian soprano roles like Isolde and Sieglinde. I guess she is doing the same thing as Helga Dernesh did.
marvin
Hey, wait a minute, just spotted another misspelling in the title of this thread:
Wagner spelled it Walhall, no vee at the beginning and no additional a at the end! $:)
Do PW and I know two different Meiers? The one doing Isolde with Kollo spells her first name Johanna, two of those 'enses', and PM insists on spelling it with one 'en'.oh yeah. I had an old classmate who spelled it "Johana" so automatically I thought it was only one "n". But you are alsolutely right.
Regretably, never met the lady, yet watching the documentary about her life and career, hearing her thoughts on different subject, brings her close to better understanding her. She does seem to be a very down-to-earth woman without any star behaviour.I tried googling her and not finding anything >:(
And regarding Waltraute, I think in a few places in the libretto Wagner did spell it Waltraut without the 'e' but it was more for singing purposes, like sometimes in the libretto Bruennhilde appears as Bruennhild without the final 'e'.
PW for what its worth I have this recording of Meier as Isolde and I find her performance enjoyable. Is she a Flagstad? No. but I kind of like her in the role of Isolde:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pkJspEzzL._SS500_.jpg)
marvin
Yeah! "Geh...GEHHHHHH !!!!!".
Wagner likes to shorten names to get rid of unaccented final syllables (Sieglind, Brünnhild, Waltraut). It's a simple poetic measure.
Very good observation. Wagner the poet I like that!
marvin
That's the documentary on Waltraud Meier I am talking about:Oh I thought you were talking about a documentary on Johanna.
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=82040&album_group=2
Both "Walhall" or "Walhalla" are correct, and yes, "Valhalla" is the correct English transliteration as w in German is the same sound as v in English. In fact, in old Norse it was spelled "Valhalla" while Old German uses the w at the beginning. "Halla" means "hall" (modern german "Halle"), "Wal" means "battle" or "war" (it's actually etymologically the same word as "war". See also "Walstatt", and old-fashioned word for "battlefield", or "Walkuere" ("kueren"="to choose, elect"), a woman who choses the slain heroes from the battlefield which will go to Walhalla.
Both are more or less the same although a "Saal" is always a large *inner* room while a Halle is basically a large building which typically contains a large room which can be a "Saal" or a "Halle", but not the other way around, a "Saal" can not contain a "Halle", but a "Halle" can contain an inner "Halle". But in many examples, the exact use of the words is interchangeable. Both are very old words which reach far back into Indo-European language history. As you can see by the fact that "Halle" and "Zelle" ("cell", both in the architectural and biological sense) are etymologically derived from the same root word but mean very different things. But the basic meaning of "an enclosed space" is shared.
Both are more or less the same although a "Saal" is always a large *inner* room while a Halle is basically a large building which typically contains a large room which can be a "Saal" or a "Halle", but not the other way around, a "Saal" can not contain a "Halle", but a "Halle" can contain an inner "Halle". But in many examples, the exact use of the words is interchangeable. Both are very old words which reach far back into Indo-European language history. As you can see by the fact that "Halle" and "Zelle" ("cell", both in the architectural and biological sense) are etymologically derived from the same root word but mean very different things. But the basic meaning of "an enclosed space" is shared.
Thanks for the Merrill poem, Sarge. I have his Selected Poems 1946-1985, and Divine Comedies. But this one must be a late poem from the 1990s. Correct?
Look forward to it too. Why Verdi as my avatar? Because Verdi is my other love interest. He epitomizes Italian Opera (rivalling Mozart in my opinion) as Wagner epotimizes German opera. Some interesting facts: both Verdi and Wagner were born the same year 1813, both were rivals but never met. Somehow I believe they had great respect for each other. Both Verdi and Wagner had a sense of drama and could convey powerful emotions through their music. Both wrote one hit opera after the next. Verdi's mature operas are true masterpeices (Otello, Aida, Falstaff, Rigolleto, Don Carlo, La Traviata to name a few) as are Wagner's (The Ring Cycle, Tristan und Isolde, Meistersingers, Parsifal, Tannhauser even Lohengrin and The Flying Dutchman). I own a little under 50 operas, 11 from Wagner and 10 from Verdi (my collection is lop-sided :))
I will change my avatar to something related to Wagner some day in the near future :)
marvin
I was right with you on Vedi and Wagner back when you wrote this, and I remain so today. After my being obsessed with Wagner so much recently, I threw on La Traviata and Otello last week. And was again full of admiration. I think both Wagner and Verdi each pushed each other. Otello shows Wagner's influence just as much as Gotterdammerung and Parsifal show Verdi.
It is very difficult for me to imagine my music collection without Verdi and Wagner. It seems my whole musical universe rotates around those two composers with Wagner being the more addictive of the two at the moment....at the moment. I believe in the concept of opera with a symphonic score and a highly dramatic element. That to me is the ultimate in artistic musical expression- "Total Art Work" 0:).
marvin
I have to agree. I have a degree in Creative Writing, but I personally feel that even Shakespeare is trumped on every level by the great operas/music dramas. I tried re-reading Shakepeare's Otello after having experienced the incredible Verdi opera, and found it sorely lacking. La Traviata, Rigoletto, Otello, The Ring, Parsifal, etc. just seem to strike deeper. But maybe that's just me.
The great writers like Poe, Hemingway, Joyce, Mailer, Vonnegut, etc. remain superior overall to the great librettists in terms of literature. However, when someone like Mozart, Verdi, Richard Strauss, or Wagner couples music with an above average libretto, the effect completely puts the former mentioned greats of literature out of the running. "Total Art Form", indeed.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31KptO%2BV3qL._AA240_.jpg)
This is a disc with a difference; I am not sure it is a positive difference. Here the four opera are treated as though they were a symphony. So instead of getting the absolutely expected bits, the concept is to produce a symphonic structure. Siegfried is treated as the slow movement, Forest Murmurs and Brunhilde's awakening. Seemingly it makes a satisfying disc. It is topped off with the an arrangement of the Siegfried Idyll.
Mike
It is the three words "by common consent" that I found most daring if not audacious....by common consent..hmmm...Wagner fans I would like to ask you how many of you are consenting that this recording is the finest recording of Tristan und Isolde ever made??
I did not know where to post this so I figured here would be the best place. As most of you who are reading this now probably know Tristan und Isolde is my favorite opera of all time. I have been addicted to the Furtwangler Flagstad recording from EMI for many years now convinced that it is unsurpassed. Well I just received in the post the following CD that I had ordered many weeks ago:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41XA381DV8L._SS500_.jpg)
Now this is what it had say on the sticker that came on the CD- I am copying this word for word:
By common consent, the finest live recording ever made of Tristan und Isolde. "Birgit Nilsson sings the Liebestod at the end of the long evening as though she was starting afresh, radiant and rising to an orgasmic climax...Opposite Nilsson is Wolfgang Windgassen, the most mellifluous of Heldentenoren"- Penguin Guide
It is the three words "by common consent" that I found most daring if not audacious....by common consent..hmmm...Wagner fans I would like to ask you how many of you are consenting that this recording is the finest recording of Tristan und Isolde ever made??
PS: I shall listen to this recording with an open mind and ears ;) this weekend!
marvin
I shall listen to this recording with an open mind and ears ;) this weekend!
marvin
What did you think, Marvin? And which other Tristans have you heard?
Sarge
Great write-up, Marvin!
It's high time I listened to the Furtwängler, as the Böhm has always been my yard-stick... But 'Tristan' is a work that requires a certain mood which, at the moment, I can't summon.
Later.
I think that the Kleiber studio recording succeeds well in providing a contrast to the Bohm. It is like a narcotic experience, a trance...which does not mean it is slow. But it has a lot of ebb and flow.
I enjoy the studio Karajan a great deal and his act 3 is singular due to the partnership with Vickers, that is an unusually intense experience.
Mike
Each act of the Kleiber has high points, but the 3rd really grabbed my attention forcefully. Even though I have trouble hearing the orchestra at times in the first two acts, the third is where everything came together on all levels.
Invisible orchestra - fair enough.
Invisible theatre - the better option, often.
Inaudible orchestra- definitely not!
Each act of the Kleiber has high points, but the 3rd really grabbed my attention forcefully. Even though I have trouble hearing the orchestra at times in the first two acts, the third is where everything came together on all levels.
I am going to have to go back and listen to that recording. I thought there was a good balance with the orchestra. I have read that the recording was done without the two main singers being present in the studio at the same time. It sounds utterly unlikely to me. I would not have thought that Kleiber was the kind to allow this kind of arrangement.
I think Karajan countenanced it in his EMI Dutchman for at least some of the scenes, also I thought it was recorded over a period of about 18 months.
Mike
Todd knows all three of the Kleiber Tristans and recons both live ones are more exciting than the studio performance.
Are there any good budget recordings of the Ring operas? Not necessarily from the same conductor.
Maybe Furtwangler or Kempe?
Are there any good budget recordings of the Ring operas? Not necessarily from the same conductor.
Maybe Furtwangler or Kempe?
Looks like they finally got around to releasing this (http://www.amazon.com/Herbert-Von-Karajan-Wagner-Rheingold/dp/B000YD7S12/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1206796487&sr=8-13) HVK Rheingold on DVD.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51U8Ag1njNL._AA240_.jpg)
The Amazon.com description unfortunately refers to the Chereau Ring (how they make that mistake is anybody's guess). But this Rheingold I saw the end on Youtube and it is excellent. Not sure whether in the future we'll get rest of the cycle.
Here is a link for the youtube cut:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns9Mh9XZZ6c
ooOOOOOOooo JA!
Ja indeed my friend. Have you ever seen a more towering and authoritive looking Wotan than Stewart? And even from the limited sound on youtube you can't help but being bowled over by the titanic and burnished playing of the BP.
Anyway I can't wait to see the whole thing.
Not sure whether in the future we'll get rest of the cycle.
In a short time I will start with a cd Johan, (Jezetha) will send me, with Choir works or excerpts from Wagners operas.
At one point in my collecting career I bought the Furtwangler RAI Ring Cycle and paid £35 for it. I discovered that Furtwangler was a remarkable Wagnerian conductor but the less than stellar sound, orchestra (most notably the brass section) and cast have caused me to sell it and buy the Solti recording instead :-\. Draw whatever conclusions you may wish from my experience :-\.
marvin
The Krauss Ring Cycle is really good, and relatively inexpensive.
Karajan's Die Meistersinger from '51.
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/9575668?rk=classic&rsk=hitlist
Is this a live recording? The sample clips sound very good.
That Meistersingers is live. There is a fair bit of stage noise, but lots of compensations.
Are there any good budget recordings of the Ring operas? Not necessarily from the same conductor.
Maybe Furtwangler or Kempe?
You may have found it already but here are a few more clips:
It went immediately on my wish list before I even went on youtube, thank you so much!
Levine has its pros and cons concerning the cast, and some think his tempos too sluggish but the Götterdämmerung is a serious contender for best ever....and the Met orchestra is phenomenal.As good as the MET Orchestra sounds in that recording, it must be heard live to appreciate how fabulous this group is under Levine (you can probably say that about a lot of orchestras). The cellos and viola sections are intoxicatingly beautiful, while the trumpets and trombones can maintain quite a refined sound and are capable of the greatest dynamic contrasts. Also with this group you always get absolute rhythmic clarity. The rest of the winds are just as good. The flutes especially are bright and clear, none of the breathy flute sound you get with some American orchestras.
Is the Levine still available from amazon.ca?
Following Sarge's advice in the purchase of the Ring from Wagner, I also add a few things of my own, about 60 Wagner cd's, to start with. ;D
13 Ring cd's.
44 cd's of all of Wagners operas.... :o ;D
See here the contents
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/2309181?rk=classic&rsk=hitlist&page=3
But no libretti though, so suggestions where to download them would be fine in the thread about libretti......
Following Sarge's advice in the purchase of the Ring from Wagner, I also add a few things of my own, about 60 Wagner cd's, to start with.
13 Ring cd's.
44 cd's of all of Wagners operas....
Harry this is a very good site, with all kinds of libretti di Wagner:
http://www.rwagner.net/opere/e-t-ring.html (http://www.rwagner.net/opere/e-t-ring.html)
When I first started listening to Wagner (the excellent Toscanini compilation, back in 2000), I was immensely intimidated. I didn't want to admit to myself that the works were over my head; that they required alot of patience and study. When I went back to Wagner last Spring 2007, I was again heavily intimidated.
What changed me was my driving passion for music. To really reap the seemingly endless benefits of more complex works, I have to always remember to open myself up as thoroughly as possible; that is, to focus (which can take effort).
I probably don't have to tell you, Harry, that the benefits from such an opening-up are literally off the scale. You get far more than what you put into Wagner's work. Or into great, involved music in general.
You know,
Our Music.
:P ;D :)
Wait 'till you start getting into the libretto and music of sacred Parsifal!!!
The first Smiley I understood Johan, but could you explain the two others? ;D
Well, ;D means 'You'll laugh your head off, Wagner is soooo funny!' and :) means 'I am very glad for you'.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ::) :)
I believe he meant that operas like Siegfried and Die Meistersinger are often very funny. The latter in particular is just generally good-hearted and Affirming.
The Testament website has downloadable .pdfs of The Ring libretti here (http://"http://www.testament.co.uk/default.aspx?PageID=7").
That would be fine Duncan, but I get a blank when I go to here! ;D
I would like to recommend this EMI issue
Les introuvables du Ring
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wagner-Introuvables-du-Ring-Richard/dp/B000005GQX/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1207419809&sr=1-1
These four discs bring together a number of excerpts from The Ring in dispirate and desirable performances. They range from Flagstaff through to Dernsch. Some of these performances have not been widely available. A long time ago on a Classics for Pleasure LP, I first encountered Kempe's experts of Rheingold. Here was a lyrical warm and impulsive concept, clear textures and plenty of drama where it is called for. It at once become and has remained my favourite interpretation of this music; but only a LPs worth of music was recorded. This whets my appetite for the possibility of Testament issuing a complete live Kempe Covent Garden Ring.
It was fantastic news when Kempe became the conductor of the BBC Sym Orch. in London. My choir was slated to perform with him a genuinely exciting prospect; he unexpectedly died at a fairly early age and a lot of potential years of great music making vanished.
The discs do not stick to trotting through all the expected passages, though they come close in Gotterdammerung. But apart from Rheingold, each opera is covered by various performers.
Walkure gets a lion's share and includes the ending in two versions. One has Fischer Dieskau conducted by Kubelik. Act 1 of Walkure is given complete, conducted by Klemperer. Very different from Walter in his famous performance, this is more stately, but not slow. Dernsch is caught in good voice and William Cochran sounded promising in 1970. Sotin makes up the third cast member and is in his element.
After that we get the second version of the close; Nilsson young and already in 1957 well into her stride, her father is none other than Hotter at his best. Leopold Ludwig was the underrated conductor.
Other names involved include Svanholm, Bohm, Swallisch, Frick, Konwitchny and Josef Metternich.
You do not learn the operas from this set, but you will hear a stupendous number of performers, legends some of them, and the set has given me enormous pleasure for some years.
Mike
Harry, A pleasure. These are in the main recordings more from the era thet you are in sympathetic towards. I did read about your Wagner splurge. You do throw yourself into the deep end! From more or less no opera to great gouts of it in almost one leap.
Mike
This has been recently released:
http://www.allegro-music.com/online_catalog.asp?sku_tag=OPD31501 (http://www.allegro-music.com/online_catalog.asp?sku_tag=OPD31501)
Has anyone heard this yet? I never bought the EMI set, but I do have the Gebhardt. From what I remember the sound on the Gebhardt is decent, but for only $44 I will have to buy!
After that we get the second version of the close; Nilsson young and already in 1957 well into her stride, her father is none other than Hotter at his best. Leopold Ludwig was the underrated conductor.
Here is the cast according the allegro website for the La Scala Ring:
What did Birgit Nilsson do in that cycle? I don't remember her being in it. Being it was 1950 she must have been a neophyte then.
How is this book as an introduction to Wagner's world? It includes a couple of CD's with music examples - a thing I can appreciate.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JXV0VVN0L._SL500_BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_.jpg)
Here's an incredible bargain for the Wagner neophyte...or any Wagnerian interested in one or more of these performances from Bayreuth (recordings between 1961-1985): ten operas, 33 CDs for €40, including the '66 Böhm Tristan and Ring. I might get it just for the super-slow Levine Parsifal which I've never heard.
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/1925450
Sarge
I would like to recommend this EMI issue
Les introuvables du Ring
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wagner-Introuvables-du-Ring-Richard/dp/B000005GQX/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1207419809&sr=1-1
HAPPY BIRTHDAY RICHARD WAGNER!! It is midnight here in London and officially the 22nd of May!
What a glorious day in the history of opera. Richard Wagner was born in Leipzig on May 22, 1813! Years later he was to take the opera world by storm 0:)!
Here's an incredible bargain for the Wagner neophyte...or any Wagnerian interested in one or more of these performances from Bayreuth (recordings between 1961-1985): ten operas, 33 CDs for €40, including the '66 Böhm Tristan and Ring. I might get it just for the super-slow Levine Parsifal which I've never heard.
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/1925450
Sarge
It looks like this is coming out in the States, or at least through ArkivMusic, in June.
It's also at amazon.com: Link (http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Great-Operas-Bayreuth-Festival/dp/B00159679S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1211452120&sr=1-1)
I'm tempted. The only recording in the set I have is the Böhm Tristan.
Here's an incredible bargain for the Wagner neophyte...or any Wagnerian interested in one or more of these performances from Bayreuth (recordings between 1961-1985): ten operas, 33 CDs for €40, including the '66 Böhm Tristan and Ring. I might get it just for the super-slow Levine Parsifal which I've never heard.
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/1925450
Sarge
:o Wow! Do you know if libretti are included?Are you kidding me? Of course NOT ! But if you are a diehard Wagnerian you should have the text to most of the operas (like Ring, Tristan, and Parsifal memorized already).
Well, as I've yet to hear an entire Wagner opera, I'd think it be a bit of a stretch to call me a Wagnerian. :D The box seemed like a cheap alternative to collecting separate recordings of each opera, but as there are no libretti, I think I will take the long way 'round.
Well, as I've yet to hear an entire Wagner opera, I'd think it be a bit of a stretch to call me a Wagnerian. :D The box seemed like a cheap alternative to collecting separate recordings of each opera, but as there are no libretti, I think I will take the long way 'round.
Corey seeing as how you are new to Wagner I'd start with the Levine MET Ring on DVD. Remember those operas were meant to be seen. After repeated viewing you should start to link the music with the plot without the need for a libretto. Then you can sit back, set your stereo volume on full blast and listen to the shear power, the phenomenal power of the SOLTI Ring on CD 0:). Gives me goosebumps just thinking about it 0:).
marvin
Have you ever noticed that Marvin likes Wagner? ;D
Have you ever noticed that Marvin likes Wagner? ;D
Now that you mention it, I think MB does like Wagner.
Of course, he does the neophytes no favors by shilling the Solti Ring when Keilberth's Testament set from the 1955 Festspiele is so seductive and so available. Now, the real Solti connoisseurs know that the 1983 Tetralogy from Bayreuth is the one to 'find.' Peter Hall's staging might have flopped, but Solti's orchestral approach is even better than his Decca set - with the Bayreuth band and acoustic to boot. I'm hoping that Orfeo or Testament will get the rights to it for an official release.
Now, the real Solti connoisseurs know that the 1983 Tetralogy from Bayreuth is the one to 'find.' Peter Hall's staging might have flopped, but Solti's orchestral approach is even better than his Decca set - with the Bayreuth band and acoustic to boot. I'm hoping that Orfeo or Testament will get the rights to it for an official release.So on which pirate label would you find the '83 Solti cycle? Who is in the cast? I imagine a steady diet of Rene Kollo ?
So on which pirate label would you find the '83 Solti cycle? Who is in the cast? I imagine a steady diet of Rene Kollo ?
Sorry PSmith08 but here you and I part company :(. That Solti Ring on Decca remains my all-time favorite Ring and I firmly believe that it is worth a listen! I have heard a lot about Keilberth's Ring. Hans Hotter was at his best here and it is a live performance. I am not sure what the sound is like, I doubt it is anywhere near as good as the Solti's Ring on Decca. I think what is wonderfull is that there are so many COMPLETE Rings on the market to suit all tastes. For me SOLTI's Decca studio recording of the Ring is as good as it gets. To each his own I guess :-\.
I have to agree with Marv that the easiest way to get into the Ring is via Levine's DVD set. Libretto is on the screen for you and later if you no longer need the subtitles, you can turn them off.
In the beginning of Die Walkure, I had to stop and sort out who all these characters were. Don't hesitate to ask if you have a question. Enjoy your new adventure.
I am listening to my first full length Wagner opera. For some reason, Das Rheingold in particular, piqued my interest, as I always enjoyed hearing the 'Entrance of the Gods into Valhalla'
I must say, I enjoyed it. I just love the dramatic music! And what a fantastic Prelude.
The CD recording I'm listening to, from the library is:
1958 Performance
Das Rheingold
Wieiner Philharmoniker
Sir Georg Solti
Decca London
:)
I found it on the mighty Interweb right here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,42.0.html). Solti only conducted the cycle for one season, leaving Peter Schneider (IIRC) to pick up the 1984 performances. Siegfried Jerusalem and Manfred Jung have the major tenor roles. Hildegard Behrens sings Brünnhilde. Siegmund Nimsgern has Wotan. The rest of the cast is at the link down the page a ways. It's a decidedly 1980s cast.
I found it on the mighty Interweb right here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,42.0.html). Solti only conducted the cycle for one season, leaving Peter Schneider (IIRC) to pick up the 1984 performances. Siegfried Jerusalem and Manfred Jung have the major tenor roles. Hildegard Behrens sings Brünnhilde. Siegmund Nimsgern has Wotan. The rest of the cast is at the link down the page a ways. It's a decidedly 1980s cast.I see the cast here now in your link...not exactly the kind of cast that make you go nuts over. I can't listen to Manfred Jung, I am sorry...
Well, the sound on the Keilberth Ring isn't nearly as contrived as Culshaw's super-stereo extravaganza, if that's what you mean. It has a more natural feel and perspective, but I can understand how others might prefer a more-engineered approach. It's a little raw and the stereo is 1955-vintage, but it does capture the Festspielhaus acoustic in a less in-your-face way. I think the Decca engineers used a single condenser stereo mike in the rafters to catch everything.
Wait until you get to Solti's Siegfried 0:)! Solti really shines here! Just listen to Mime hammer away trying to fashion Notung from its fragments all to no avail of course! Later on you will come to Siegfried's sword forging scene that gives me an adrenaline rush every time I hear it! Without exaggeration Solti's Siegfried is filled with so much energy and power it will blow the roof off the top of any house $:)! Crank the volume up and let the neighbors complain that's what I say! This is the only way to listen to the Solti Ring $:). Happy Listening!
marvin
I see the cast here now in your link...not exactly the kind of cast that make you go nuts over. I can't listen to Manfred Jung, I am sorry...
Marvin,
Are you able to rank Richard's operas, from shortest to longest (approx.)? One reason I also decided to check out 'Das Rheingold' first, was it's relative short length compared to some of his other operas.
Marvin,
Those would be my nominations as well... :) Btw, Gotterdammerung is a bit longer at 4 hours and 40 minutes... and not a single weak moment.. 0:)
Just curious to hear your reasons for omitting Parsifal.
I do believe that it contains the most subtle and ravishing music he ever wrote but it also has more weak moments than the other mature operas, especially in Act 1 and 2.
Well the shortest operas are the earlier ones. But Wagner's best operas are his later mature ones (IE the longer ones). I have ignored Wagner's first 2 operas The Fairies and The Ban on Love as I view them as experimental works. This should give you a general idea. My ratings designated by the * follow each operas. I have assigned the angel 0:) to signify operas that are my absolute favorites!
The Flying Dutchman: 2 hours 15 minutes ****
The Rheingold: 2 hours 25 minutes ***** 0:)
Tannhauser: 3 hours 5 minutes ****
Lohengrin: 3 hours 15 minutes ***
Rienzi: 3 hours 35 minutes ***
Die Walkure: 3 hours 50 minutes ***** 0:)
Siegfried: 4 hours ***** 0:)
Parsifal: 4 hours *****
Tristan und Isolde: 4 hours 15 minutes ***** 0:) (this is my favorite opera in the entire operatic repertoire!)
Die Meistersinger: 4 hours 22 minutes ***** 0:)
Gotterdammerung: 4 hours 30 minutes ***** 0:)
How did I get these durations you ask?? From my itunes library of course!
PS: Other Wagnerians on this forum are free to disagree with me of course!
marvin
PSmith08 - thanks for linking that Solti Ring, I missed it the first time round and I was surprised that the links are still active (and me DLing it all means they'll be active for one more month at least :)). The sound quality is very clear, even with mp3, meaning a potential CD release at some point will be very viable. The orchestra sounds immense in these recordings.
Btw, Gotterdammerung is a bit longer at 4 hours and 40 minutes... and not a single weak moment.. 0:)
Of course, it works this long, there'll be a bit of variation from conductor to conductor, and even from performance to performance in a run.
I would give Lohengrin more than three stars. I mean, it's gotta have more than Rienzi! ;D
OK I'm willing to meet you half way and bump it up by 1/2 a star to 3-1/2 stars, if only for the Here Comes the Bride tune!
marvin
Thank you Marvin for posting those. I will probably check out the remainder of The Ring operas next. :)
OK I'm willing to meet you half way and bump it up by 1/2 a star to 3-1/2 stars, if only for the Here Comes the Bride tune!
marvin
:D Personally, I'd take away points for that tune, but Ortrud's music more than makes up for it.
By the way which Gotterdammerung do you have ?
OK I'm willing to meet you half way and bump it up by 1/2 a star to 3-1/2 stars, if only for the Here Comes the Bride tune!
Marvin,
... Btw, Gotterdammerung is a bit longer at 4 hours and 40 minutes... and not a single weak moment.. 0:) ...
Except for the plot.
A stunning performance by Callas as Isolde in the death scene:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Htsam9HddyI
Who needs supertitles, in fact, who even needs the right language with a voice and expression like this???
Does the set have the 1995 production of Tristan und Isolde with Siegfried Jerusalem and Waltraut Meier?
Just a little modification on the Wagner set mentioned above: the Rheingold and Siegfried are from 1971 and the Walkure and Gotterdammerung are from 1967. On the original Philips release the whole set was from 1967. So at least you get two different performances in the Ring.
Just a little modification on the Wagner set mentioned above: the Rheingold and Siegfried are from 1971 and the Walkure and Gotterdammerung are from 1967. On the original Philips release the whole set was from 1967. So at least you get two different performances in the Ring.
The info on the Decca release is wrong. Böhm didn't conduct the Ring in 1971, Horst Stein did, and Windgassen last sang at the festival in 1970. Both the original Philips release and the new Decca one come from the 1966 and 1967 festivals.
Hmm. The editor responsible for the mis-print must be one of them Wagner-Haters™, eh, Sarge? 8)
Wendell is correct. There's a misprint in the Decca booklet. Compare the casts in the Decca booklet with the Philips and you'll see they are identical; or compare a few tracks.
Sarge
Thanks for the correction about the years and casts for the Ring. One question though, I always thought the Philips Ring was from 1967 only (at least that what the booklet states for all four operas). Was that a misprint as well?
Paul
May I make a slightly irreverent, but light hearted observation?
It seems to me that Wagner lovers are a rum lot. For instance, ZB posts a stunning version of Isolde's Liebestod, as sung by Callas in 1949 (at the tender age of 25), and not one person comments on it. Instead they all prattle on about whether Bohm's Ring was recorded in 1967 or 1968, or whether the Philips set was taken from two different series of performances. Do these people actually listen to the music, or do they just enjoy amassing performances of Der Ring, a time consuming act in itself?
I ask this as someone who enjoys Wagner's music, but who doesn't have the evident passion for the composer that most of the posters in this topic have.
May I make a slightly irreverent, but light hearted observation?
It seems to me that Wagner lovers are a rum lot. For instance, ZB posts a stunning version of Isolde's Liebestod, as sung by Callas in 1949 (at the tender age of 25), and not one person comments on it. Instead they all prattle on about whether Bohm's Ring was recorded in 1967 or 1968, or whether the Philips set was taken from two different series of performances. Do these people actually listen to the music, or do they just enjoy amassing performances of Der Ring, a time consuming act in itself?
I ask this as someone who enjoys Wagner's music, but who doesn't have the evident passion for the composer that most of the posters in this topic have.
Tsaraslondon 8), no one doubts Callas' talents, that's not the issue here. Personally I like to listen to complete recordings of Wagner's operas and in German. I also have a tendency to reserve Callas for Verdi, Puccini, Donizetti, Bellini operas. That does not mean that I do not recognize Callas' talents as a Wagnerian singer. I will admit it has been a while since I heard Callas in a Wagnerian piece- I should be more attentive $:)!
marvin
May I make a slightly irreverent, but light hearted observation?
It seems to me that Wagner lovers are a rum lot. For instance, ZB posts a stunning version of Isolde's Liebestod, as sung by Callas in 1949 (at the tender age of 25), and not one person comments on it. Instead they all prattle on about whether Bohm's Ring was recorded in 1967 or 1968, or whether the Philips set was taken from two different series of performances. Do these people actually listen to the music, or do they just enjoy amassing performances of Der Ring, a time consuming act in itself?
Thanks for the correction about the years and casts for the Ring. One question though, I always thought the Philips Ring was from 1967 only (at least that what the booklet states for all four operas). Was that a misprint as well?
Paul
Who has time to listen to Wagner these days?
Nor I, Sarge. Though I should like to, actually.
Not this side of August, I don't think.
Webern is more user friendly ;D
It's tough, even when one is retired, to find the three or four or more hours needed to give these works the attention they deserve. Webern is more user friendly ;D
Sarge
Sarge, I am surprised to tread this. I have a career, have an active social life, am in a relationship and I still have time to sit and listen/watch a Wagnerian opera. Usually I reserve the 5:00 -9:00 PM slot after work for Wagner. That's a good 4 hours to appreciate my favorite composer (The Meistersinger 0:)). I also have the luxury of working from home every now and then, I'll play Wagner as I am working.
marvin
My problem, Marvin--and it is self-inflicted--is that I like too much music: nearly every style, period and genre, and not just classical. I could listen to Wagner more but then I'd be neglecting composers I love just as much. And you have to admit Wagner does take a considerable amount of time. At my age I'm quickly running out of that commodity.
Sometimes I wish I could focus on a select few composers (many here seem to do that) but I do like variety. I'm probably doomed to listening to my top 300 composers until the day I die :D
Sarge
All one has to do is listen to Varnay or Flagstad or Norman or Nilsson's videos after Callas's to understand why I feel that way.
Sarge
Well actually I have and I don't. Mainly because you haven't explained why you prefer them . This is not a swipe at those illustrious artists, nor at you. But we all hear and respond to things differently. It is not enough to simply say listen to singer A and you will understand why I prefer them to singer B. It's like saying if you try strawberry ice cream, you will understand why I prefer chocolate.
As it happens, I don't actually respond to that hint of steel in the Isoldes of Nilsson and Flagstad, great voices though they had. For me Isolde, particularly in the Liebestod is a vulnerable, feminine woman, and I don't get much of that from either, though I do rather more from Jessye Norman, who, unlike Callas however, never sang the complete role on stage. My yardstick has always been Frida Leider, because she does sound like a woman of passion, femininity and vulnerability. And that is my preference, though I am always interested to hear other points of view.
1) Elektra
2) Salome
3) Der Rosenkavalier
4) Ariadne auf naxos
5) Die Frau ohne schaten
6) Arabella
7) Capriccio (I didn't know I had a recording of this opera :o until I went "digging" ;D into my collection)
8 ) Daphne
PS: What do you think of my new signature?
Well actually I have and I don't. Mainly because you haven't explained why you prefer them . This is not a swipe at those illustrious artists, nor at you. But we all hear and respond to things differently. It is not enough to simply say listen to singer A and you will understand why I prefer them to singer B. It's like saying if you try strawberry ice cream, you will understand why I prefer chocolate.
As it happens, I don't actually respond to that hint of steel in the Isoldes of Nilsson and Flagstad, great voices though they had. For me Isolde, particularly in the Liebestod is a vulnerable, feminine woman, and I don't get much of that from either, though I do rather more from Jessye Norman, who, unlike Callas however, never sang the complete role on stage. My yardstick has always been Frida Leider, because she does sound like a woman of passion, femininity and vulnerability. And that is my preference, though I am always interested to hear other points of view.
I have read many times that D. Voigt is an excellent singer of Strauss operas.
I have read many times that D. Voigt is an excellent singer of Strauss operas.
CDs or DVDs? Conductors, casts...a list please.
Very Well: I'll mix and match CDs with DVDs as I see fit. Here's what's in my collection at the moment:
1) Elektra : CD: Solti with VPO, Nilsson, Resnik, Collier on Decca, DVD: Bohm with VPO on DG with Rysanek, Varnay
2) Salome: CD: Solti with VPO, Nilsson, Stolze, Wachter on Decca, DVD:Bohm on DG with Stratas, Weikl
3) Der Rosenkavalier: CD: Karajan with Philharmonia Orchestra, Schwarzkopf, Ludwig EMI, DVD: Kleiber at Munich
4) Ariadne auf Nacos: CD: Masur with Gewandhausorchester Norman, DVD: Levine with MET, Norman, Battle
5) Die Frau ohne schaten: CD: Sawallisch with Bavarian Radio Orchestra, DVD: Solti VPO, Studer, Moser, Marton
6) Arabella: CD: Solti Vienna state opera chorus
7) Caprricio: CD: Bohm with Bavarian Symphony Radio Orchestra, Janowitz
8 ) Daphne: CD: Bohm with VPO, Schoffler, Little, Guden
Well? What do you think? Too much Solti? I like him in Strauss ;D! I still have to pick up a few DVDs for those missing operas. Funds are limited as you might have expected! Incidentally I am still saving for that Karajan Ring and looking for a bargain, which never seems to come >:(.
marvin
In her plumper years, she sang Chrysothemis in the performance I mentioned above from c. 20 years ago. And she is marvelous as a singer.
However, it is quite a sight to see the lean Hildegard Behrens "manhandle" her in certain scenes! 0:)
I only own one Strauss recording with her; she's die Kaiserin in Sinopoli's Die Frau ohne Schatten. She has an impressive voice but I really prefer Cheryl Studer here; Studer projects more feeling and, to carry on the topic above, she's more feminine. I suspect I'd appreciate Voigt more in the theater.
Sarge
I like Studer also. This is a little OT but have you heard Studer in Verdi's Atilla? There is a scene where everyone is singing (chorus). Atilla has just had a dream and sings about it as from the rear of the stage comes "the pope" and the chorus. All of a sudden from way up high comes Studer's beautiful soprano voice that just floats above all of the singers. It is the most beautiful thing. It is on a dvd from La Scala.
Very Well: I'll mix and match CDs with DVDs as I see fit. Here's what's in my collection at the moment:
1) Elektra : CD: Solti with VPO, Nilsson, Resnik, Collier on Decca, DVD: Bohm with VPO on DG with Rysanek, Varnay
2) Salome: CD: Solti with VPO, Nilsson, Stolze, Wachter on Decca, DVD:Bohm on DG with Stratas, Weikl
3) Der Rosenkavalier: CD: Karajan with Philharmonia Orchestra, Schwarzkopf, Ludwig EMI, DVD: Kleiber at Munich
4) Ariadne auf Nacos: CD: Masur with Gewandhausorchester Norman, DVD: Levine with MET, Norman, Battle
5) Die Frau ohne schaten: CD: Sawallisch with Bavarian Radio Orchestra, DVD: Solti VPO, Studer, Moser, Marton
6) Arabella: CD: Solti Vienna state opera chorus
7) Caprricio: CD: Bohm with Bavarian Symphony Radio Orchestra, Janowitz
8) Daphne: CD: Bohm with VPO, Schoffler, Little, Guden
Well? What do you think? Too much Solti?
I still have to pick up a few DVDs for those missing operas. Funds are limited as you might have expected! Incidentally I am still saving for that Karajan Ring and looking for a bargain, which never seems to come >:(.
foam fillers and some of them stuck to the CDs! Maddening. I'm having trouble scrapping the stuff off without scratching the CDs. Does anyone have a solution? I've gone through all my opera boxes and thrown those vile foam things out. Should have done it years ago but wasn't aware then that they'd be a problem.
Sarge
Very Well: I'll mix and match CDs with DVDs as I see fit. Here's what's in my collection at the moment:
1) Elektra : CD: Solti with VPO, Nilsson, Resnik, Collier on Decca, DVD: Bohm with VPO on DG with Rysanek, Varnay
2) Salome: CD: Solti with VPO, Nilsson, Stolze, Wachter on Decca, DVD:Bohm on DG with Stratas, Weikl
3) Der Rosenkavalier: CD: Karajan with Philharmonia Orchestra, Schwarzkopf, Ludwig EMI, DVD: Kleiber at Munich
4) Ariadne auf Nacos: CD: Masur with Gewandhausorchester Norman, DVD: Levine with MET, Norman, Battle
5) Die Frau ohne schaten: CD: Sawallisch with Bavarian Radio Orchestra, DVD: Solti VPO, Studer, Moser, Marton
6) Arabella: CD: Solti Vienna state opera chorus
7) Caprricio: CD: Bohm with Bavarian Symphony Radio Orchestra, Janowitz
8 ) Daphne: CD: Bohm with VPO, Schoffler, Little, Guden
Well? What do you think? Too much Solti? I like him in Strauss ;D! I still have to pick up a few DVDs for those missing operas. Funds are limited as you might have expected! Incidentally I am still saving for that Karajan Ring and looking for a bargain, which never seems to come >:(.
marvin
I highlighted the ones I own. I have Levine's Ariadne on CD (Battle's in this one too), and Kleiber's Vienna Rosenkavalier rather than the Munich. I've been thinking about that Solti Schatten DVD. Do you like it?
Sarge
I may be in the market for a Karajan Ring too. My old set (first generation CDs) has foam fillers and some of them stuck to the CDs! Maddening. I'm having trouble scrapping the stuff off without scratching the CDs. Does anyone have a solution? I've gone through all my opera boxes and thrown those vile foam things out. Should have done it years ago but wasn't aware then that they'd be a problem.
Sarge
I may be in the market for a Karajan Ring too. My old set (first generation CDs) has foam fillers and some of them stuck to the CDs! Maddening. I'm having trouble scrapping the stuff off without scratching the CDs. Does anyone have a solution? I've gone through all my opera boxes and thrown those vile foam things out. Should have done it years ago but wasn't aware then that they'd be a problem.
Sarge
I may be in the market for a Karajan Ring too. My old set (first generation CDs) has foam fillers and some of them stuck to the CDs! Maddening. I'm having trouble scrapping the stuff off without scratching the CDs. Does anyone have a solution?Sarge--just send the set to me and I'll see what I can do.
Sarge--just send the set to me and I'll see what I can do.
Maybe that method will work for you as well as it did for us. I hope so.
Use a soft cloth and move radially (ie perpendicular to the circumference of the circular CD) I hope all will be well.
Anne, Marvin, thanks. I'll try that.It will get rid of some but there will be some really fine particles that will stick to the cd no matter what you do. But it will be much better. My Karajan Ring suffered the same fate since like you I have the original release. Whatever you do DO NOT USE ANY ALCOHOL_BASED solvent or it will eat right through your cd.
Sarge
I smell a trap...;D But, seriously, Sarge--I had the same problem with an old Karajan Carmen. An alcohol solution worked fine for me. It should not damage the CDs. Here's proof:
It will get rid of some but there will be some really fine particles that will stick to the cd no matter what you do. But it will be much better. My Karajan Ring suffered the same fate since like you I have the original release. Whatever you do DO NOT USE ANY ALCOHOL_BASED solvent or it will eat right through your cd.
What's a Brillo pad? I just used a small dry cotton based pad dipped in ethanol and it was quite destructive.
If it's anything like a Brillo pad, that could explain a lot!
What's a Brillo pad? I just used a small dry cotton based pad dipped in ethanol and it was quite destructive.
if so, then suspect one ought be very gentle when rubbing the disc to remove the adhesive foam.
We're going to a wine fest this evening. I plan to soak one of the Walküre discs in distilled water while we're gone, hoping that most of the foam comes off without the need of a cloth.
Sarge
This is all beginning to sound like open-heart surgery; but more vital.
Mike
This is all beginning to sound like open-heart surgery; but more vital.
Mike
I'm just reading Pratchett's Maskerade and this is pretty funny ;D:
'There goes a figure that should prompt a revival of The Ring of the Nibelungingung,' Undershaft went on. 'Now that was an opera.'
'Three days of gods shouting at one another and twenty minutes of memorable tunes?' said Salzella. 'No, thank you very much.'
'But can't you hear her singing Hildabrun, leader of the Valkyries?'
'Yes. Oh, yes. But unfortunately I can also hear her singing Nobbo the dwarf and lo, Chief of the Gods.'
I'm just reading Pratchett's Maskerade and this is pretty funny ;D:What's so funny about that? Full of the same old platitudes you always hear when clueless idiots talk about Wagner.
'There goes a figure that should prompt a revival of The Ring of the Nibelungingung,' Undershaft went on. 'Now that was an opera.'
'Three days of gods shouting at one another and twenty minutes of memorable tunes?' said Salzella. 'No, thank you very much.'
'But can't you hear her singing Hildabrun, leader of the Valkyries?'
'Yes. Oh, yes. But unfortunately I can also hear her singing Nobbo the dwarf and lo, Chief of the Gods.'
I'm just reading Pratchett's Maskerade and this is pretty funny ;D:
'Three days of gods shouting at one another and twenty minutes of memorable tunes?' said Salzella. 'No, thank you very much.'
Actually it's 3 days and an evening, how soon we forget Das Rheingold, but who's counting ;)!
marvin
Well, literally 'Vorabend' is 'Eve'. So Rhinegold is Ring's Eve... ;)
I protest innocence: 'twas an English translation I was quoting! $:)
(Although that notwithstanding, do I find the Ring's "Eve" far more appropriately Wagnerian in sound.)
Yes, nicely archaic, isn't it? Like the 'Rape of the Rhinegold' (cf Pope's 'The Rape of the Lock').
Marvin, I think an expansion of the Rheingold would make a number of less-hardcore Wagnerians commit ritual suicide, so to speak. :P
Don't limit your observation to "less-hardcore Wagnerians" only. Much as I like Rheingold, it is still necessary to understand both what its purpose in the Ring is and why an expansion of its content would be less than ideal.
Don't limit your observation to "less-hardcore Wagnerians" only. Much as I like Rheingold, it is still necessary to understand both what its purpose in the Ring is and why an expansion of its content would be less than ideal.
Come on PSmith08 now wouldn't you like to see a scene where Alberich fabricates that Ring with Wagner's sublime dark leitmotif to accompany it. Also I think the audience would be well served to see how Wotan lost his eye. I for one would like to see a scene set to music of the Ash Tree losing its branch to become Wotan's spear.
I would however like to hear your views why expansion of it contents would be less than ideal. Siegfried is no longer the fallen hero of the Ring as Wagner had originally envisaged with the "The Death of Siegfried". Wotan has replaced him, I think some of those scenes I suggested would be most appropriate.
marvin
They would be, and so would the deletion of Götterdämmerung, if we're playing that game. Since the central problem with the Ring hasn't really materialized yet, there's no real sense bringing in the Wotan-Siegfried issue to say retroactively that Wagner should have done this or that. Clearly, and Götterdämmerung is a testament to this, the issue presented itself without a conscious redraft on Wagner's part; indeed, Wagner did what he could to keep things in order as intended, but there were and are some signs of strain. That is to say, then, that your position would be fine and good if Wagner went in to make the Ring the story of Wotan from the outset. We would have to ignore, though, the fact of the matter.
The broader issues with the Ring aside, one must consider the fact that Rheingold sets up a problem that Wotan attempts to solve in the "time" between the end of Rheingold and the start of Walküre. Wagner's libretto, in fact, offers us a pretty clear hint as to when Wotan solves the problem in his mind. There is also a musical cue that, when read along with Wagner's direction, makes things fairly well obvious, even if we don't yet know what the "big idea" is. The question for Rheingold, then, is what is dramatically necessary to set up the problems to be resolved during the three days. That is to say that we are confronted with a teleological question, and anything that doesn't really answer that question - or enhance the answer to that question - is superfluous. That devolves quickly into a matter of a debate between different dramatic sensibilities, I suppose, but I think framing the question in that way does reveal my position nicely.
Yes, nicely archaic, isn't it? Like the 'Rape of the Rhinegold' (cf Pope's 'The Rape of the Lock').
Yes, except that Pope gets his rape over with in 794 lines of heroic couplets infinitely wittier than anything in Wagner.
Agreed. Though my jest was more about those who have a problem with Wagner's long-windedness.
Otherwise, I believe "Das Rheingold", relatively speaking, to be quite succinct.
Not if you neglect to visit the men's room before the conductor starts the first downbeat.
Yes, except that Pope gets his rape over with in 794 lines of heroic couplets infinitely wittier than anything in Wagner.
Not if you neglect to visit the men's room before the conductor starts the first downbeat.
;D (And the Rhine doesn't help either.)
Hah. Well, I suppose the true Wagnerian must possess some sort of special training for such a contingency... Let's ask Marvin.
Ouch! That's rather harsh and uncalled for $:). I will kindly remind you that this is the Wagner appreciation thread ;) :)!
marvin
Ok avoid alcohol, coffee, Diet Coke, Coke, Red Bull, tea anything with caffeine that stimulates the bladder. The last thing you want is, as Jezetha so humorously noted, to see the Rhein's gushing water when you have to use the toilet!!
marvin
I must admit I had a number of highly comic possible disaster scenarios flash by, while reading the list of things to avoid.
Still, I suppose that's not entirely a joke: particularly with the other three Ring operas, or Parsifal.
.........or Die Meistersinger or Tristan und Isolde....... ;)
marvin
I would however like to hear your views why expansion of it contents would be less than ideal.
Well, in Die Meistersinger one could slip out during the fight.
Here's a man, who speaks from bitter experience...
Because Wagner already completed the work. As usual, I'll go with the composer's wishes.
, the lines to the restrooms are piteous to behold.
You ain't seen nuttin' yet! Try the ladies restrooms! ::)
Nah. Act 2 of DM is only an hour long. The five potential "problem" spots in Wagner are Rheingold, Meistersinger 3, G-D 1, Parsifal 1, and Dutchman if played in one act. Before or (especially) after any of these, the lines to the restrooms are piteous to behold.
Since there is no response to the Bayreuth 2008 topic, maybe if I intrude into the urinary popular hot thread I'll meet someone who is listening to the Bayreuth webcasts.
Anybody?? ???
I saw your post. But I don't, unfortunately, have the time to listen along with you... But let not that dampen your enthusiasm!
dampen your enthusiasm!
Only once did he get a ticket but did not have his tux with him and he had to walk the gauntlet to his seat, followed by hostile stares and hisses: "How dare he, in jeans???"
I haven't been there either! And because I strongly dislike uncomfortable wooden furniture to sit on during a Wagner opera, I don't think I'll even try for a ticket. :DIf you believe in that I got beachfront property that I'll sell you for cheap.
But I can give you some second hand snippets. A friend, American expatriot who lived in Bayreuth and taught at the local university told me some of his experiences. Like: would you believe he never had a problem getting a ticket? No, he never applied for one, all he did was to put on his tux, walked up to The Hill with a sign asking for a ticket and he always got one, most of the time even free! Then there were times when he was in hurry, wore his jeans and sport shirt, but stuck his tux and shirt in a bag, made his trip up The Hill, got a ticket from someone who had a spare, went to the men's room, changed his attire, put the jeans in the bag and left it with the Garderobenfrau - something like a hat check girl - who by now already knew him, and he enjoyed the opera. Only once did he get a ticket but did not have his tux with him and he had to walk the gauntlet to his seat, followed by hostile stares and hisses: "How dare he, in jeans???"
Lovely house, Marvin. Is it yours? ;D ;)
(I'm kidding. And of course, no, I have not been to Bayreuth; let alone in there! :))
I haven't been there either! And because I strongly dislike uncomfortable wooden furniture to sit on during a Wagner opera, I don't think I'll even try for a ticket. :D
But I can give you some second hand snippets. A friend, American expatriot who lived in Bayreuth and taught at the local university told me some of his experiences. Like: would you believe he never had a problem getting a ticket? No, he never applied for one, all he did was to put on his tux, walked up to The Hill with a sign asking for a ticket and he always got one, most of the time even free! Then there were times when he was in hurry, wore his jeans and sport shirt, but stuck his tux and shirt in a bag, made his trip up The Hill, got a ticket from someone who had a spare, went to the men's room, changed his attire, put the jeans in the bag and left it with the Garderobenfrau - something like a hat check girl - who by now already knew him, and he enjoyed the opera. Only once did he get a ticket but did not have his tux with him and he had to walk the gauntlet to his seat, followed by hostile stares and hisses: "How dare he, in jeans???"
Marvin, my best advise: Buy yourself a tux and nice ruffled shirt! Good Luck! :-*
PS: So Lis, Renfield and PerfectWagnerite have not been to Bayreuth- I guess that leaves Sarge 8), yes I I'll bet he's been there! I also wonder if Jezetha 8) has been to Bayreuth?? Other than that I can not think of any other Wagner fans GMG members who would have made the journey?? ??? Greta maybe?? I guess I'll have to be the first then!Not for nothing but I think I'd rather go to the MET. Call me a homer but I would rather enjoy Wagner in the comfort of my home town only 20 minutes from my house. It's not like the singing, staging and conducting at Bayreuth is better than the MET.
Not for nothing but I think I'd rather go to the MET. Call me a homer but I would rather enjoy Wagner in the comfort of my home town only 20 minutes from my house. It's not like the singing, staging and conducting at Bayreuth is better than the MET.
Still, I wouldn't mind going to Bayreuth for Parsifal, but that has more to do with sentiment than the realities of modern Wagnerian performance on the Green Hill.
PS: So Lis, Renfield and PerfectWagnerite have not been to Bayreuth- I guess that leaves Sarge 8), yes I I'll bet he's been there!
I also wonder if Jezetha 8) has been to Bayreuth??
I'd have expected a dress code to be in place.
Incidentally can't one bring a pillow or a cushion to sit on??, or would that also get a hiss from the audience??
marvin
Not for nothing but I think I'd rather go to the MET. Call me a homer but I would rather enjoy Wagner in the comfort of my home town only 20 minutes from my house. It's not like the singing, staging and conducting at Bayreuth is better than the MET.
The very atmosphere of the theatre, its design and its setting, seemed lugubrious. It was like a crematorium, and a very old-fashioned one at that, and one expected to see the gentleman in black who had been entrusted with the task of singing the praises of the departed. The order to devote oneself to contemplation was given by a blast of trumpets. I sat humble and motionless, but at the end of a quarter of an hour I could bear no more. My limbs were numb and I had to change my position. Crack! Now I had done it! My chair had made a noise which drew down on me the furious scowls of a hundred pairs of eyes. Once more I withdrew into myself, but I could think of only one thing, and that was the end of the act which would put and end to my martyrdom. At last the intermission arrived, and I was rewarded by two sausages and a glass of beer. But hardly had I had time to light a cigarette when the trumpet blast sounded again, demanding another period of contemplation. Another act to be got through, when all my thoughts were concentrated on my cigarette, of which I had had barely a whiff. I managed to bear the second act. Then there were more sausages, more beer, another trumpet blast, another period of contemplation, another act -- finis!"
I have visited Germany thrice, but have never been in Bayreuth. As things stand, I don't think I'd be much interested in enduring all the required trouble for a potentially uncomfortable semi-religious Wagnerian operatic experience. I would exclude it altogether were there a mandatory dress code. I feel strongly against these things. $:)
My next trip to Austria - Bavaria (whenever that will be) will probably include a visit to Bayreuth. If I were to attend a performance, I'd opt for either Die Walküre or Lohengrin.
If you can get tickets. There's usually a 10-year wait, with no guarantee.
Am I allowed, too?
For God's sake! or For heaven's sake!
Am I allowed, too?
For God's sake! or For heaven's sake!
Nice job, Jez! :-*
Totally OT: Now show your talent with my native Bavarian: Eabbeamamalad! A hint: It's something you'll have for Friaschdigg. ;D
You are a genius! I am in awe! :-*
It's Erdbeermarmelade. Confession: When I read it in a Der Spiegel short article, I had to say it a few times to identify the fruit in the jam! ;)
Sarge, Jezetha, Lis, Anne, Wanderer, PSmith08, Sforzando and other Wagner fans, Wagner affectionados, colleagues and friends thank you all for contributing your experiences, thoughts and impressions regarding Bayreuth! I am on holiday in Spain and have just seen all your responses so please pardon the delay in responding. First let me say that this was hardly the reaction I was hoping to get from all of you! But there seems to be a consensus amongst all of you that perhaps there are better, more comfortable and certainly more affordable ways of experiencing Wagner's operas than attending Bayreuth! I guess in my usual naive over simplistic nature I was drawn to the "allure"....the "fantasy".... of attending what I deemed to be the ultimate Wagnerian experience- seeing an opera at Wagner's opera house! I now have second doubts about going! I certainly can't afford 1000 to 1500 euros Sarge, and the thought of leaving that opera house with a sore arse is hardly appealing Lis! Stravinsky's autobiographical account does not sweeten the pot either Sforzando!
marvin
I certainly want to hear Wagner in Bayreuth. I hope I'll become so famous, I can 'jump the queue'... ;)
Oh Dear Marvin, between your lines I read sadness about being deprived of materialising this lifelong dream of yours: Attending a Wagner opera, in person, in his creation. I didn't intend my post that way, only issuing a warning, and I think so did your other Wagner friends, preparing you for what will await you. By all means, Marvin, put on your old tux, walk up The Hill and hope for a kind soul to give you a ticket. If you don't succeed, you know you have tried. If you don't go through all this, you'll propably live forever with the doubt: "I might have gotten a ticket!" - and then blame at least me for it all! - The sore arse will heal and you'll tell us it was worth the torture! - :-*
and unlike Jezetha I will never attain "so famous" a status so as to "jump" the queues!
Or you could try to impersonate a guest you can be certain will not attend, through whatever means. >:DSounds like Ripley's solution!
Sounds like Ripley's solution!
The Talented Mr Herrenberg.
I don't think it's that extremely impossible to get tickets if you have some connections. I never heard an actual performance at the Festpielhaus, but my mother and step father went a few times although the last time is already many moons ago. They aren't that much into opera anyway but don't mind going once in a while ;D. I think they got the tickets from friends. I stopped by during the summer once right before the festival began and once when it was already running to visit people I knew in the orchestra, so I had the opportunity to hear some orchestra-only rehearsals (Parsifal with Sinopoli) and some stage rehearsals (Götterdämmerung with Levine) in the theater which was very interesting. The orchestra pit is very interesting, too, really deep and actually getting lower in stages towards the back, unlike most pits which are just flat. The half open lid does mute and darken the color the sound a little bit, but it can still get really loud in the auditorium when the 100 or so handpicked players play full steam ahead. :)
I've been on the internet since 1994 (if I remember correctly - whenever the OJ civil trial was offered on the internet but not on TV - we could read the transcripts).
On one of the sites someone said it was very easy to get tickets from his country. Apparently a lot of tickets are allotted to that country because it had helped Germany,or Wagner, in the past. I cannot remember the country but maybe some of you might.
Thanks for this epic account, Iago!!
Anne is correct. I was at Bayreuth in 1968 or 1969 (I'm not sure which).
I suppose things have changed in the 40 years that have passed since then but;...
I flew from NY to Paris. (spent one week there)
Then I took a student flight across the Channel to London. Such flights were also available to teachers. Spent a week in London
Then I took another student flight from London to Amsterdam, where I rented a car.
I drove through most of the European continent. From Amsterdam to Nuremberg, thence to Bayreuth. I arrived in Bayreuth the day prior to the opening of the festival, with NO opera tickets and NO hotel reservation. However, that didn't bother me since I could always sleep in the car if necessary. I did manage to get a room in the Bayreuth Hof, but was told by the Concierge that it would only be for one night as the rooms had been reserved for the entire length of the festival. But I took that room and spent the remainder of the day roaming the areas around the Opera house and visiting Wagners home and burial place.The next morning while reading the "Herald Tribune" in the lobby of the hotel and awaiting "checkout time", I overheard a patron asking the desk clerk, if her opera tickets had yet arrived?. The clerk said no, but I later learned that the mail was delivered two or three times a day in those years and that the hotels ticket allotment would probably be arriving in the 1 PM mail. I asked the clerk if there was a possibility of there being any "unaccounted for" tickets. She said to check back after they arrived. THERE WERE. I managed to purchase a ticket for the OPENING NIGHT - Der Fliegende Hollander under Silvio Varviso, with McIntyre, Talvela and Rysanek in major roles. Amazingly the clerk charged me EXACTLY the price on the face of the ticket. Imagine how much I would have to pay in "fees" if I tried to do the same thing for opening night at the Met?
The performance was stupefyingly awesome, and the opening music of the Overture still resounds in my memory. WHAT A SOUND!!!! Almost tactile.
Now I had no hotel room, but I tried some pensiones about 20 miles from Bayreuth. I managed to find one, where I was made to feel welcome, even though pictures of the landlords son in full Nazi Luftwaffe regalia hung on the walls.
The next day, I returned to the "hill" and managed to actually obtain a ticket for that nights performance of Parsifal, under Horst Stein. (Don't remember the cast- but I think Martha Modl was Kundry). I stayed in that pensione for two nights and then left for Munich.
From Munich, I drove to Salzburg, Austria, where I was able to attend a performance of Don Giovanni (under Von Karajan). Since I hate Mozart operas, that was a torture, but it was worthwhile to see HvK in Salzburg. Then across the Austrian and Italian Alps to Venice. Then to Pisa, Florence and finally Rome, where I saw an Aida at the "Baths of Caracalla". Spectacular production, but actually amateurishly sung, played and conducted.
Flew home from Rome. Trip lasted six weeks, and I never did have to sleep in the car.
Then to Pisa, Florence and finally Rome, where I saw an Aida at the "Baths of Caracalla". Spectacular production, but actually amateurishly sung, played and conducted.
I agree with M, many of the provincial theatres have a good and long tradition. Abbado and Roberto Abbado, Muti and Chailly are just four good conductors who worked on a regular basis with provincial companies. Rome can often get its act together when the unions are not in dispute, Venice produces first class opera on a regular basis, Verona with its festival is neither entirely unknown or undistinguished.
Mike
You are being sarcastic now....have a look through the catalogues for yourself, but remember, there are masses of very good artists who never get recorded. What evidence have you that La Scala is the only company worth listening to?
I mentioned some and add to the list Naples, Palermo and Parma. Just as with other countries, they employ musicians from other countries. Opera Mag reviews them on occasion and often in the past I have noted favourably. Of course there can be variable standards.....rather like I have noticed at all the opera companies in the UK. Provincial opera companies in Italy is not my specialist subject. However, to suggest there is only one company worth listening to is absurd.
Mike
Can you recommend any recent great DVD's apart from La Scala so I can run out and go buy them?
As an Italian-oriented opera lover just started with Wagner. Nothing very special, "Tristan und Isolde" with Nilsson and Windgassen. Stunning!!! Re-listened several times. Definitely, I must hear some more Wagner.
Be prepared to be blown away by the Ring 0:)!
I am already blown away by Salome! What is left of me for the Ring? ;DSalome? Salome ain't a pimple compared to the Ring.
No, next post is not about Wagner, but you mentioned Salome and I wonder which performance it was that blew you away. Not this one, it's not released yet, but here is little taste of it:
http://www.opusarte.com/pages/product.asp?ProductID=253
It's tough, even when one is retired, to find the three or four or more hours needed to give these works the attention they deserve. Webern is more user friendly ;D
Sarge
7) Capriccio (I didn't know I had a recording of this opera :o until I went "digging" ;D into my collection)
marvin
Edit: Sorry stop at minute 4:24!
Or don't. I liked the Wagner bit, but what follows is BLEEPin' hilarious!
Btw - did anybody notice that the guy singing Wolfram's 'aria' about the evening star (O du mein holder Abendstern) from the Third Act of Tannhäuser was doing so not in German, but in Italian, Spanish??
Ummm. It's in English. He sings "Star of Eve, your tender beam". I did some googling, and the next line in the translation, which you can't hear that well on the video, is "Falls on my spirit's troubled dream".
Wagner fans! Where are you? What? No one has posted here in over a month?? :( Have we abandoned this very fine composer? Have we lost all appetite for his operas?? A few weeks ago on the SkyArts channel I was lucky enough to catch the 3rd Act of this production of Tristan und Isolde:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51TW68YV6HL._SS500_.jpg)
From what I saw it proved to be a rather dark, sombre production of this opera. What you see on the cover (excluding the blue sea) is the set design for Act 3. Kollo had aged, I felt he was a bit too old appearancewise to be Tristan but he delivered vocally nontheless. Jones was good as Isolde, passionate and attractive. I can not comment further as I have only seen Act 3. I would have liked to see Acts 1 and 2 but I can not find a recording of this opera anywhere >:(! amazon.co.uk lists it as currently unavailable >:( >:(!
so did anyone else watch a Wagnerian opera recently? If yes, what did you see?
marvin
I listen to Wagner every day.
I listen to Wagner every day.
Also the Barenboim Tristan und Isolde dvd, Act III.
I think I've heard that dvd on a live broadcast radio performance. Very good.
Are you sure that's healthy? ;D
I listened to Hollreiser's EMI recording of Rienzi yesterday.
I am watching Wagner right now! It's a 1966 production of Lohengrin with Gösta Winbergh and Karita Mattila. Somehow I have my doubt about the date listed because it would make Mattila now in her sixties. Somebody taped it from a web cast with James Conlon conducting the Robert Carsen direction.
You are asking what am I doing sitting in my study posting at GMG with Lohengrin on the projection set in the music room? For one, this it not one of my favorite Wagner works, and second the production is almost black and white with a bright blue sky adding the only colour. Maybe it will improve when the shining knight adds some life to the drab set.
Where do you find the time?
Where do you find the time?
Which Barenboim Andy 8)? , I have the one with Kollo, Meier (Johanna) at Bayreuth. You know the one with the rather strange ending.
we make time Tsaraslondon, on top of my career, my relationship, my friendships, all time consumming mind you I have to "squeeze" Wagner in otherwise I'd go insane ;D!
marvin
Marvin,
No worries, I've been listening to a lot of Wagner recently too. Lately, Die Walkure and Siegfried.
Since May of this year, I've listened to Wagner more than any other composer, and that's not a sentence I thought I'd ever write. ;D
I am watching Wagner right now! It's a 1966 production of Lohengrin with Gösta Winbergh and Karita Mattila. Somehow I have my doubt about the date listed because it would make Mattila now in her sixties.
Wagner, and Metal.
But I guess there isn't too terribly much of a difference between the above variables, really.
Agreed! ;D
I guess that was the Paris production, with Gwyneth Jones? If so, 1996 is the correct date. Mattila would have been six years old in 1966 and Winbergh would have been twenty-two. That'd be creepy. :o
Has anybody read Nietzsche's Der Fall Wagner (The Wagner Case) ?
Has anybody read Nietzsche's Der Fall Wagner (The Wagner Case) ?
I find some of its iconoclastic pronouncements quite illuminating. Such as Wagner is a disease, which is one of the less provocative ones. Nietzsche had gone full circle from convert to ardent foe. Of course he knew Wagner the man, so this may have something to do with it.
Bracing myself to a Frida Leider Götterdämmerung repast. 0:)
I've read all of Nietzsche's Wagner writings. I put them squarely in the category of sour grapes: Nietzsche wanted to be a composer/artiste. Wagner told him the truth about his composing skills, and he held it against him. There's also the "Son wanting to completely distance himself from the Father" archetype between the two men. In fact, the Wagner/Nietzsche relationship is a textbook example of this.
Very interesting, Mike (and Andy).
(And, no, I haven't cracked open most of the Ring in the Big Bayreuth Box.)
Hey, there is a Big Bayreuth Box!?
Hey, there is a Big Bayreuth Box!?
Andy 8) it's got one of the best Tristan und Isoldes on record! The 1966 recording at Bayreuth with Nilsson and Windgassen 0:). It is also very affordable, I recently saw it at HMV for £35 (about $50).
marvin
Behold!
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31-flS6c96L._SL500_AA180_.jpg)
Available for peanuts and, as such things go, with no notes or librettos. Instead we have a cursory but detailed enough scene by scene, track by track plot description. For less than 60$, I don't think one could possibly quibble about the contents. From what I gather, the aim was to present stereo productions form Bayreuth that were once available on one of the Polygram conglomerate labels (Decca, DGG, Philips). What we get is an assemblage of performances that center round two strong, no-nonsense men of the pit, Sawallisch (Lohengrin, Tannhaüser, Fliegende Holländer) and Böhm (Ring, Tristan). The series is completed with Varviso's Meistersinger and Levine's Parsifal.
I have a question..... i don't know how to put it- i'll just say it like this: I'm interested in learning about the influence that Tristan und Isolde has had on Mahler's use of harmony. Are there any recorded thoughts of his about this opera. Obviously, he's conducted it before, but, specifically, what did he think about it?
Also, what was Wagner thinking when he wrote it? I'm thinking about the Prelude and ending, since i'm not familiar with much else. What made him start writing with all of these suspensions? What was he thinking? (i'm dying to learn about this!)
To get the second answer to your question, you'd probably need to seek out Cosima Wagner's diaries, which are only marginally more reliable than Wagner's own Mein Leben, Wagner's correspondence, and perhaps his notes from the time surrounding the composition. You could also check out some of the standard scholarly biographies and commentaries on the work. In other words, you would probably have to do a fairly substantial research project, since I'm unaware of some pithy quote on the subject. Maybe there is one, but it's not coming to mind immediately.
As to Mahler, De la Grange surely has an answer to your question.
To get the second answer to your question, you'd probably need to seek out Cosima Wagner's diaries, which are only marginally more reliable than Wagner's own Mein Leben, Wagner's correspondence, and perhaps his notes from the time surrounding the composition. You could also check out some of the standard scholarly biographies and commentaries on the work. In other words, you would probably have to do a fairly substantial research project, since I'm unaware of some pithy quote on the subject. Maybe there is one, but it's not coming to mind immediately.Thanks for the references. :) I'll get to that...
As to Mahler, De la Grange surely has an answer to your question.
Thanks for the references. :) I'll get to that...
but for now, no quick summary, like a sentence? It'd be nice, though I'd understand if something like this couldn't be summarized in just a few words.
I don't see how Wagner influenced Mahler at all. Bruckner, Liszt, Berlioz, Beethoven, i see all of these in his music, but no Wagner.Ha, really? No connection between much of Mahler's idiom and the ending of Tristan und Isolde?
I don't see how Wagner influenced Mahler at all. Bruckner, Liszt, Berlioz, Beethoven, i see all of these in his music, but no Wagner.
G$, why not read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_chord
There is a vast literature about Tristan's harmonic language. 'All these suspensions' you talk about are to do with Tristan's central idea - unfulfilled longing. Resolution only comes in the end (E major) when both protagonists find fulfilment in death. I simplify, but this is what it boils down to. You could also study the relationship Schopenhauer-Wagner. Schopenhauer's philosophy underpins T & I.
G$, why not read this:I've read that article. Makes sense to me if analyzed on the second degree in A Minor, with just the D# thrown in as a chromatic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_chord
There is a vast literature about Tristan's harmonic language. 'All these suspensions' you talk about are to do with Tristan's central idea - unfulfilled longing. Resolution only comes in the end (E major) when both protagonists find fulfilment in death. I simplify, but this is what it boils down to. You could also study the relationship Schopenhauer-Wagner. Schopenhauer's philosophy underpins T & I.
Wow, a whole book about that? :D
Great post! Bryan Magee's book The Tristan Chord goes on at fascinating length in regard to the relationship between T and I and Schoepenhauer.
Stepping away from T&I for a few seconds:
And there is Michael Kristensen as an indescribable greatest acting Loge in the much talked about Copenhagen Ring which the mailman brought me less than two hours ago. First act just finished but I had to take time out to catch my breath, and to assure you, this Ring is not as bad as has been written and talked about, at least not as the first act of Rheingold is concerned. Of course there is a lot more ahead of me - and you! - but I am still overwhelmed by the perfect singing, and also this truly great acting of Kristensen.
The music played by the Royal Danish Opera under Michel Schønwandt is nothing to sneeze at either! On my way down to Nibelheim, see you later!
Lis
Something for all Georg Solti and Schenk/Levine worshippers to start tongue-wagging:
In Das Rheingold, Johan Reuter sings Wotan and he is Ok, but the Wotan of the remaining operas - James Johnson - is the better singer and actor. He is one of the best singers in the Copenhagen Ring.
Schønwandt is right there in your line-up, just as is Haenchen from Amsterdam, Barenboim and Thielemann from Bayreuth.
This is too good...:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTlvrIQ99y8
Hi everyone.
Has anyone here read A sense of Ending by Phillip Kitcher and Richard Schacht?
I have recently finished it and I like it -- especially the discussion of love in The Ring. I'm kind of curious to know how well it has been received.
That ws a very good book. From what I've read of reviews, it's been well received. I've read better books on the subject (Ernest Newman's The Wagner Operas is the definitive, especially on the Ring, and Bryan Magee's The Tristan Chord is excellently done from a philosophical perspective).
Sory mate, I think A Sense of ending goes way deeper than Newman, and McGee for that matter.
I am particularly interested their idea that The Ring is an attempt by Wagner to demonstrate the uselessness of love when confronted ny the real world challenges of the likes of Hagen and Gunter.
Ehhh...well, that's one opinion on what the opera Der Ring Des Nibelungen means.
Although it was a fun thought experiment, overall I don't think that your "Finding an Ending" had any idea of what it was talking about. The entirety of Gotterdammerung was written under the influence of Schoepenhauer, Wagner threw away any Feuerbach influence way before he'd started the last part of Siegfried. If you dispute that, read the letters of Wagner and also his wife Cosima during the writing of the aforementioned pieces.
Also, the fact that the writer of Finding an Ending dismisses Parsifal has to be one to be the most crippling mistake toward the author's argument (besides his obvious lack of biographical knowledge comcerning Wagner). Even from a strictly musical standpoint, Parsifal is just as strong a composition as any of the last four Wagner operas. Some people see it even as the crown jewel of Wagner's output.
I highly reccomend you read Wagner's Brown Book, as well as Cosima's diaries from around the time of the composition of the Ring, before you parade around "Finding an Ending".
And please, read the Magee and Newman before you place a book above them. Or at least set alongside the main arguments from each author's books so we can have a more informed discussion.
Please forgive if I sound a little too knowledgeable. I don't mean to be condescending. But as of this month I've been studying Wagner's works, in particular the Ring and Parsifal, for the better part of two years now. This includes the scores (at length), as well as biographical information on the works and composer.
I know what I'm talking about. I believe that you're capable of the same. don't be indignant.
Learn.
Hey AndyD
Why do you think Brunhilde kills herself at the end of the Ring?
Hey AndyD
Why do you think Brunhilde kills herself at the end of the Ring?
I am now curious as to why the character "Mime" is seen as an "anti-semitic caricature"? M. Owen Lee makes this comment about Mime, in Siegfried, being a "low point" and an embarrassment. Why is Mime deemed to be looked at as a anti-semitic symbol?
Because it was Wotan's (ie. God's will)? :-\ Just a thought? It was to fulfill the destiny?
But why should Wotan want Brunhilde to die?
I can see why he might think the world would be better if he were gone -- the events of The Ring have shown that he is a pretty useless god. But what's to be gained by getting rid of his daughter?
Hey AndyD
Why do you think Brunhilde kills herself at the end of the Ring?
Does she?
Since Brunnhilde betrayed Wotan (in the beginning, by trying to protect Siegmund and Sieglinde), he had to turn her into a mortal to appease the Gods for her going against his wishes. I think this is correct?
I meant to add that all this week I've been listening to the Clemens Krauss recording from Bayreuth in 1953. Superb singing and sound quality, if a little echoey at times on the Das Rheingold discs.
I don't think so. Hotter was already retired when Nilsson and Vickers started singing together in Bayreuth Ring productions. But I may be wrong. A Walküre maybe?
There is a Vickers/Nilsson Walkure with George London, it dates from 1962. The LSO is conducted by Leinsdorf and its most recent incarnation was on Decca. It is excellent in may ways, probably one of Leinsdorf's best sets.
If there is a live set with your dream cast, I don't know about it. Hotter was born in 1909, so may have been in casts with the other two. In the 1060s he had started to direct Wagner productions. He retired in 1972 from the headline roles.
Mike
There is a Vickers/Nilsson Walkure with George London, it dates from 1962. The LSO is conducted by Leinsdorf and its most recent incarnation was on Decca. It is excellent in may ways, probably one of Leinsdorf's best sets.
If there is a live set with your dream cast, I don't know about it. Hotter was born in 1909, so may have been in casts with the other two. In the 1060s he had started to direct Wagner productions. He retired in 1972 from the headline roles.
Mike
Andre, I am not at home, so cannot look again at my box set. Did I quote the wrong date of the Leinsdorf Walkure recording?
Mike
But there is no recorded evidence of a 1960 Walküre (Nilsson-Vickers recordings had to wait until 1971). Unless there is a live pirate recording I'm not aware of. In any case, until the 50 year copyright date has elapsed, any Met performance is guarded by the local Fafner. Let's wait until next year, then!
You can listen to the February 24, 1968 Met broadcast at http://www.rhapsody.com/richard-wagner/wagner-die-walkure-february-24-1968. You have to be a rhapsody subscriber to hear the whole thing, but even if you're not, you can listen to up to 25 tracks per month for free (more than enough for, say, a complete Act I and the Todesverkundigung). The cast also includes Thomas Stewart, Leonie Rysanek, Christa Ludwig, and Karl Ridderbusch. Karajan had conducted the premiere, but had left by the time of the broadcast, so we get Berislav Klobučar instead.
The Met did broadcast both Fidelio and Die Walküre with Nilsson and Vickers in Feb. 1960, but so far that 1968 broadcast is the only one that's showed up on Sirius or Rhapsody. Maybe one day.
Unfortunately I get this message:
U.S. Only. We're sorry. We have detected that you are outside of the United States. This service is currently only available to residents within the United States.
This is ridiculous. Things like that shouldn't be an issue on the internet age.
From the Gramophone archive; it confirms 1962 as the date of the recording.Some good points in that review, but you can smell the British bias a mile away. The reviewer employs the often-used tactic of throwing a few truths in there hoping that people will take everything he writes as gospel. For example this:
Mike
WAGNER. DIE WALKURE. Jon Vickers (ten) Siegmund; Grê Brouwenstijn (sop) Sieglinde; Birgit Nilsson (sop) Briinnhilde; George London (bass-bar) Wotan; Rita Gorr (mez) Fricka; David Ward (bass) Hunding; Marie Collier (sop) Gerhilde; Judith Pierce (sop) Helmwige; Julia Malyon (sop) Ortlinde; Mar- greta Elkins (mez) Waltraute; Josephine Veasey (mez) Rossweisse; Noreen Berry (mez) Siegrune; Maureen Guy (mez) Grimgerde; Joan Edwards (contr) Schwertleite; London Symphony Orchestra / Erich Leinsdorf. Decca Grand Opera 0 (D 430 391-2DM3 (three discs, nas: 216 minutes: ADD). Notes, text and translation included. From RCA LDS6706 (9/62).
This performance, made during the period when Decca's Ring was in progress, has in consequence tended to be overlooked. Leinsdorf was an experienced Wagnerian, having taken over the Wagner repertory from Bodanzky at the Metropolitan Opera in the 1930s, restoring all the cuts made by his predecessor. He paces the work firmly and stamps his authority on the LSO of the day, but finds it hard to relax or to peer into the more metaphysical side of the score as would a Furtwängler or a Goodall. His reading is more to be equated with that of Levine today, having the same visceral excitement, as in the fight at the end of Act 2 and the departure of the Valkyries in Act 3. Leinsdorf also evinces an understanding of the larger paragraph; what I find missing is that extra, hard-to-describe inward quality which should inform Wotan's Narration and his relationship with his erring daughter; it is something instinctive that cannot be learnt. George London's Wotan doesn't help. For all the security and resplendence of his singing, so like that of James Morris today, it wants the verbal understanding and subtlety of phrase brought to the role by Hotter and Bailey. Indeed, even Nilsson—in the Todesverkiindigung and elsewhere—doesn't approach the insights and understanding she showed for Solti (Decca), and BOhm (Philips) some five or six years later. That said, her performance leaves many others standing in its strength of voice and intelligence of delivery. The Valkyries comprise many excellent British singers of the day.
Act 1 offers many rewards in the fervent, heroically sung Siegmund of Vickers, heard to greater advantage here than for Karajan in his complete Ring on DG, and in the imaginative, deeply felt Sieglinde of Brouwenstijn, who manages the storytelling of "Der Manner Sippe" as well as any Sieglinde on disc. It was also a pleasure to hear again the sonorous bass of David Ward, even if Hunding needs a more granite-like tone than he can provide (he was soon to become an appreciable Wotan). In Act 2, Rita Gorr is a powerful but unsubtle Fricka—and perhaps those epithets characterize the performance as a whole. The recording is over-resonant and not very atmospheric. A.B.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY HERR WAGNER!
Vickers sings this role better than anyone else and on either set he is on top form. Brouwenstijn is not my favorite Sieglinde (for that you go with a young Regine Resnick on the Krauss set) but she is pretty decent on either set as well. I go with Karajan for the discipline and polish of the orchestral playing.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY HERR WAGNER INDEED! Oh yes, Herr Wagner 0:) born May 22, 1813 would over the course of his very turbulent, tumultous and highly controversial life not only put Germany on the opera map but have it dominate over every other nation!! What I love most about this great man is that he risked everything for his artwork, he made no compromises of any kind whatsoever to anyone! He taught me that life is for those who DARE! It is not for those who play it safe!
Brouwenstijn isn't the Sieglinde on the Karajan set. It's Janowitz - and mighty fine she is too.Oh yeah, sorry. Absolutely, Janowitz is a wonderful Sieglinde.
Has all of Wagner's music been recorded? I notice that he's written A LOT besides his operas, and I've heard about almost none of it.
The record companies may be trying to protect his reputation.
I celebrated yesterday with Futwängler's EMI recording of Tristan und Isolde. Wonderful recording, except for the awful British orchestra, chorus, and producer. I'm just kidding about the British, of course. ;D
The record companies may be trying to protect his reputation.Well, that's a really interesting answer.
I have a random question, and I might have asked it before. Has all of Wagner's music been recorded? I notice that he's written A LOT besides his operas, and I've heard about almost none of it.
Wagner struggled (and to a certain extent failed) to make ends meet by writing piano transcriptions for what IMHO are "second rate" operas, those of Jacques Halevy for example. He hated this work, he considered it slave work but necessary to earn much needed money. I see no reason to record these compositions nor to have them in my collection. These piano transcriptions are not representative of Wagner's genius nor do I have any interest in hearing them, much less the operas that they came from.Ah, well, that's enlightening! :)
marvin
Is this the Wagner trhead? May I enter? ;D
I can see (touching is not allowed) Flagstad's Brünnhilde costume from the Met almost everyday if I want to. When I look at it I giggle...
I can see (touching is not allowed) Flagstad's Brünnhilde costume from the Met almost everyday if I want to. When I look at it I giggle...
This is an excellent Parsifal. I bought this set about 2 years ago ...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Y6CZETR3L._SL500_AA211_.jpg)
Sir Colin directed an excellent performance of this Tannhauser at Bayreuth in the mid 70's with Gwyneth Jones, etc. I have this DVD.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/412NRNYdexL._SS500_.jpg)
Two more to go ...
Here is one of my treasured LP-sets, an EMI recording. Furtwangler and Flagstad, what a combo ...
Wagner fans, friends and colleagues I post here with distressing news......most distressing news. A few weeks ago I was watching Tristan und Isolde (Levine MET) on SkyArts 2 here in London and in between Acts they interviewed the casting director at the MET. This casting director, a lady, claimed that the role of Tristan is very difficult to cast since there are only 11 men...that's right only 11 men in the world today that can sing that role. My God only 11....where is the next generation of Wagnerian singers?? What does this say of the role of Wotan and Siegfried and Parsifal? On another thread here at GMG it was pointed out that performances of Die Meistersinger are few and far between. Could live performances of Wagner's operas become extinct simply due to casting problems? Only 11 Tristans, only 11 men can fulfill the challenges of that role :o :o :o......... :'( :'( :'( oh where are you Wolfgang Windgassen....I miss Hans Hotter, those were the days my dear Wagnerians, those were the days :'( :'(!
marvin
Wagner fans, friends and colleagues I post here with distressing news......most distressing news. A few weeks ago I was watching Tristan und Isolde (Levine MET) on SkyArts 2 here in London and in between Acts they interviewed the casting director at the MET. This casting director, a lady, claimed that the role of Tristan is very difficult to cast since there are only 11 men...that's right only 11 men in the world today that can sing that role. My God only 11....where is the next generation of Wagnerian singers?? What does this say of the role of Wotan and Siegfried and Parsifal? On another thread here at GMG it was pointed out that performances of Die Meistersinger are few and far between. Could live performances of Wagner's operas become extinct simply due to casting problems? Only 11 Tristans, only 11 men can fulfill the challenges of that role :o :o :o......... :'( :'( :'( oh where are you Wolfgang Windgassen....I miss Hans Hotter, those were the days my dear Wagnerians, those were the days :'( :'(!
marvin
Yes, but I have not really noticed any serious discussion of his operas yet ...
because I prefer a more visceral, booming, "Heavy Metal Wagner".
Today I see Tupac Shakur being labelled a great composer on several popular forums..right up there with Mozart, Beethoven, and Wagner.
Ohhhh Andy. PLEASE tell me you are joking. :(
Distressing times indeed. But it always seems as though some more show up...folks have been fearing the extinction of the heldentenor since Melchior.
How many of today's conductors can meet the challenges of Tristan (or any other mature Wagner opera's) score?
Oh yeah, on two of the Amazon forums that subject came up. Notorious BIG and Tupac are asserted consistently as great composers. I guess it's hard for me to blame them, when I was alot younger I just assumed that the music of today was "it" from a progressive level. It was only when I started studying music that I found out differently.
Now Amazon forums are the annals of good taste? Do you have statistics on many fools thought Chuck Berry and Elvis Presley were better composers than Shostakovich and Hindemith?
Maybe this should be called the "chicken little" thread. There are more conductors and orchestras that can perform Tristan than there have ever been.
The thing we seem to have in particular abundance is people clutching their old records claiming that nothing is as good as it was in the good old days.
You have alot to look forward to, especially the Karajan Rheingold.Damn right you were. The Karajan Rheingold hits home all right.
Maybe this should be called the "chicken little" thread. There are more conductors and orchestras that can perform Tristan than there have ever been. I am certain there are more tenors who can perform the role. The thing we seem to have in particular abundance is people clutching their old records claiming that nothing is as good as it was in the good old days.
This news doesn't surprise me. Wagner is considered someone to have been "progressed from" by most young people today. Younger folks seem to be convinced that just because something is from "today" it automatically trumps what came from "the day". Today I see Tupac Shakur being labelled a great composer on several popular forums..right up there with Mozart, Beethoven, and Wagner.
Oh well it is their loss.....
marvin
Scarpia the orchestras and conductors may well be there! but this criticism has come from the CASTING DIRECTOR at the MET :o, I submit to you that there may be a lot of orchestras that can play the score of Tristan und Isolde but the difficulty lies in the vocals as well. I am not sure that many tenors can make the grade! Tristan carries the majority of Act 3, his monologue is long, the agony palpable....and only 11 men in the world today are up to that challenge.....I truly believe that the "sky is falling" ;)! Perhaps Wagner set the bar far too high here??
Maybe there are 11 that can be engaged at the Met, a big hall, a big orchestra and arguably the best opera house in the world with the pickiest audience. That doesn't mean there aren't others who can sing the role if expectations are out of the stratosphere. I am still somewhat skeptical that in the "good old days" there were many more who could do the job.
(http://www.artpassions.net/galleries/rackham/ring/ring22.jpg)That's not Wagner, that's Gershwin: Can't help loving that moose of mine.
Maybe singers need to start smoking and drinking again? ;)
The thing we seem to have in particular abundance is people clutching their old records claiming that nothing is as good as it was in the good old days.
That has been my line for years!
This casting director, a lady, claimed that the role of Tristan is very difficult to cast since there are only 11 men...that's right only 11 men in the world today that can sing that role. My God only 11....
On which recordings can Melchior be heard?
I am generally of the opinion that the best places to hear Melchior are on the justly famous 1935 Walküre act 1 from Vienna, led by Bruno Walter, and the potted HMV Siegfried, led by various conductors. Both were (are?) available on Naxos' "Great Opera Recordings" in fine transfers by Mark Obert-Thorn and Ward Marston, respectively. I'll put it like this: while you'll want to hear more, you'll more than get your range on Melchior with those sets.
Vickers, Domingo, Pavarotti, Del Monaco, Vinay, Cossutta, Craig, Martinelli, Dermota, McCracken....now I am stuck. Cura sings it and so did Melchior. But it is not all that easy to come up with a dozen even within the last 30 years.
You got further than me, I had to google who is Craig, and are you sure Dermota sung Otello? I'm only aware of Cassio under Furtwangler. I'm not sure he had the voice for Otello (he did sing very beautiful, if generously miked, Das Lied von der Erde under Klemperer though). Drop Martinelli and the rest is I think complete post WWII Otelldom. Maybe Kaufmann would make nice Otello in some years.
(AP) — BERLIN - Germany's government has pledged ?500,000 ($700,000) to renovate the Wahnfried villa that houses the archive of legendary German composer Richard Wagner.
The government said Thursday the money to renovate Wagner's former house in the southern city of Bayreuth would come from an ec