Bruckner's Abbey

[Cato]

From the What Are You Listening To topic:

Bruckner Symphony No. 1 in C Minor, 1891 1866-1868 Linz version, Markus Poschner, Bruckner Orchester Linz

Bruckner Symphony No. 2 in C Minor, 1872 First concept version. Ed. William Carragan, Altomonte Orchester St. Florian, Rémy Ballot 

Linz!  Can you give us a review of these?

[Cato]

The Bruckner Symphony II: it has one of his finest slow movements, painful and anguished at times, yet offering hope in its conclusion.

This performance is powerful and energetic, but, we expect that from Herr von Karajan and Company!

[Cato]

A cartoon by German artist Otto Böhler, who apparently liked Bruckner very much!





"Der Künstler wallt im Sonnenschirm, die Tintenbuben hinterdrin."


"The artist strolls with a parasol, the ink boys (stroll) behind in his shadow."

[LKB]

What a great story!  Yes, after imagining that opening while reading the score, and then hearing it on the DGG Jochum recording, I was hooked forever! 



😇😇😇The Church of Anton!😇😇😇  Excellent!



Certainly one of its bishops must be Eugen Jochum!


On that basis, how about this?

I've only ever conducted two choral works in the concert hall, in 1987. One was Mendelssohn's Auf dem Berg. The other was Bruckner's Locus Iste. 

[Jo498]

A cartoon by German artist Otto Böhler, who apparently liked Bruckner very much!





"Der Künstler wallt im Sonnenschirm, die Tintenbuben hinterdrin."


"The artist strolls with a parasol, the ink boys (stroll) behind in his shadow."

The ink boys are apparently the critics. But this cannot be really appreciated without the "original" which is from the first and still famous (like Carroll's Alice everyone used to quote certain verses from this until quite recently) German children's picture book with (sometimes brutally educational stories), "Der Struwwelpeter" (1845, by the Frankfurt physician and psychiatrist Heinrich Hofmann).
In one of these stories children were mocking a black guy and as punishment are dipped into an enormous inkwell by a gigantic St Nicholas, so that they end up far blacker than the one they mocked (the message sounds a bit mixed today but it was fairly progressive then... )



The caption says (the asterisked verses were modified for the Bruckner caricature, I am not trying a verse translation!)
"Here you see how black they are
far blacker than the moorish child.
*The moor ahead in the shining sun
*the inkboys behind him.
And if they had not laughed at him,
St. Nicholas would not have turned them black."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struwwelpeter

[Cato]

The ink boys are apparently the critics. But this cannot be really appreciated without the "original" which is from the first and still famous (like Carroll's Alice everyone used to quote certain verses from this until quite recently) German children's picture book with (sometimes brutally educational stories), "Der Struwwelpeter" (1845, by the Frankfurt physician and psychiatrist Heinrich Hofmann).

In one of these stories children were mocking a black guy and as punishment are dipped into an enormous inkwell by a gigantic St Nicholas, so that they end up far blacker than the one they mocked (the message sounds a bit mixed today but it was fairly progressive then... )



The caption says (the asterisked verses were modified for the Bruckner caricature, I am not trying a verse translation!)
"Here you see how black they are
far blacker than the moorish child.
*The moor ahead in the shining sun
*the inkboys behind him.
And if they had not laughed at him,
St. Nicholas would not have turned them black."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struwwelpeter

Ausgezeichnet!  Vielen Dank für die Informationen!   Höchst interessant!


Als ich Deutsch unterrichtet habe, fand ich ab und zu Auszüge dieses Kinderbuches, aber ohne die Bilder!  Richtig, echt brutal sehen uns solche Geschichten heutzutage aus.


Ja, der Kern des Gedichtes bleibt aber ein grosser Faust vor der Nase!  😇 

[ultralinear]

Some years ago a musical-theatre group here made a stage show from some of the stories, which quite a number of parents seemed mistakenly to have thought would make a suitable entertainment for their offspring.  The cruelty was imaginatively graphic - I recall particularly the tale of the boy who wouldn't stop sucking his thumbs, and ended up having them chopped off - long ribbons of "blood" everywhere - and the performance was punctuated periodically by adults in the audience getting to their feet and leading a line of white-faced traumatised small children from the auditorium, to ironic farewell waves from the performers.
 

[Cato]

Some years ago a musical-theatre group here made a stage show from some of the stories, which quite a number of parents seemed mistakenly to have thought would make a suitable entertainment for their offspring.  The cruelty was imaginatively graphic - I recall particularly the tale of the boy who wouldn't stop sucking his thumbs, and ended up having them chopped off - long ribbons of "blood" everywhere - and the performance was punctuated periodically by adults in the audience getting to their feet and leading a line of white-faced traumatised small children from the auditorium, to ironic farewell waves from the performers.
 

Wow!  How post-modern can you get?!

For those interested:

https://www.amazon.com/Struwwelpeter-English-Translation-Childrens-Classics/dp/0486284697

We should mention Max und Moritz by Wilhelm Busch, which I used in my German II classes, where the two badly behaved boys come to a comical, yet, to be sure, deadly end!

Well beyond any Tom and Jerry violence!   





Anyway...somebody on another website was pushing this as the Best Bruckner Symphony III performance: Karl Böhm and the Vienna Philharmonic:

[Jo498]

Wilhelm Busch is sometimes even more cruel (but mostly a bit later 1870s, I think) but was mostly not intended for such small children.
I think most of the stories and several more pictures can be found following links from the wikipedia link I gave above.
The cut off thumbs of the thumbsucker is the most graphic and disproportional but there is also burning to death (because playing with fire) and dying for refusing to eat soup as well as getting blown far away in a rainstorm.
There is apparently even a Musical "Shockheaded Peter"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shockheaded_Peter_(musical)

[ultralinear]

There is apparently even a Musical "Shockheaded Peter"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shockheaded_Peter_(musical)

Yes that's the show I saw, performed by the Tigerlilies. "...a somewhat darker tone".  You're not kidding.    More Itchy & Scratchy than Tom & Jerry.  I loved it.

[Atriod]

New to me (I have all the EMI and DG recordings) was Celibidache's live Sony recordings. Listened to Symphony 8 a couple of times, what an incredible performance. And purely by accident the second time as part of a spiritual double header with Michel Block playing Franck (particularly the Prelude, Choral, and Fugue).

[calyptorhynchus]

I've been listening to some of Thielemann's recordings. They seem very good to me. In particular his recording of No.0 might be the best I have heard of that work.

I suppose one reason for this might be that he always seems to have Rolls-Royce orchestras to conduct. But I think he must have learnt a lot of patience conducting all that Wagner; he doesn't seem to force or hurry the music, but he just lets it speak for itself.

[Cato]

I've been listening to some of Thielemann's recordings. They seem very good to me. In particular his recording of No.0 might be the best I have heard of that work.

I suppose one reason for this might be that he always seems to have Rolls-Royce orchestras to conduct. But I think he must have learnt a lot of patience conducting all that Wagner; he doesn't seem to force or hurry the music, but he just lets it speak for itself.

I listened to excerpts of this performance via YouTube with headphones: the comments are all raves in various languages (at least, in the several which I can translate).

I checked the final bars of the last movement: the timpanist certainly can be heard!  There is a sudden decrease in volume at one point to create a new crescendo.

Some people in the crowd were so enthusiastic that they started clapping immediately...then it slowly struck them to wait for the conductor to turn around. 

Anyway, I will listen to the whole thing again: from the excerpts, this particular performance is very good.

[Atriod]

Concerning last-minute Christmas presents, one of the greatest performances of not just the Bruckner Fifth Symphony, but of anything!







Note the date: December 4th!  😇

I do wish they'd recorded Jochum more live in his later years like they did with Gunter Wand.
Alternative art for those looking for it:



And completely agree, this is a phenomenal performance.

Gil Zilkha released a video on the 5th, he has it as one of the best as well.

[Cato]

Gil Zilkha released a video on the 5th, he has it as one of the best as well.

Mr. Zilkha is in the club!   


No time yet for hearing the complete Thielemann/BRSO performance, but I hope to do so tomorrow morning.

Of the sound quality, of course, must one always be wary on YouTube.

[Cato]

Because of recommendations above I listened to this performance early this morning:

It was spoiled by YouTube's recent push for revenue, i.e. during the first movement, commercials arose at intervals of 7 minutes or so!   


Anyway, Herr Thielemann elicits a very good performance from the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra.
The woodwinds are not ignored or overwhelmed, and Bruckner's little dialogues are emphasized (e.g. in the First Movement between the Flute and French Horn).


The Adagio was particularly fine, again there was emphasis on the solo woodwinds and "dialogues" in the counterpoint!  Not a great amount of anguish or drama in the brass, but not subdued either.


The Scherzo showed its "folk-dance" quality in an almost 18th-century manner.


No commercials during those, at least when I listened!


Tempos in the Finale were varied, as some moments were not Allegro moderato, but...some will find that within the boundaries of the conductor's power.

The final minutes sounded better today than they did yesterday!  Strange!  Maybe I had the volume too low in my headphones yesterday! 

[Cato]

Concerning the Symphony #0...from a Bruckner fan on another website:

(The performance by Stanislaw Skowaczewski was particularly praised.)
 
Several other good ones you should hear, also. The pioneering stereo by Haitink and the Concertgebouw is top notch, as is Chailly and the RSO Berlin.


For symphonic muscle, the 2023 recorded performance by Rémy Ballot and the St Florian Altomonte Orchestra is extraordinary - currently available only in the Gramola boxed set of 10 symphonies but coming out as an individual SACD later this spring.

That information might interest members here!

[lordlance]

I heard Bruckner 1 by Thielemann and VPO but had to stop a few minutes in. The recording quality is really bad. Sony screwed over Thielemann. It's kind of recessed? Hard to describe but it's not good. Thankfully we have an entire cycle with Dresden and individual one offs with other orchestras like BRSO, BPO. 

[Cato]

I heard Bruckner 1 by Thielemann and VPO but had to stop a few minutes in. The recording quality is really bad.

Sony screwed over Thielemann. It's kind of recessed? Hard to describe but it's not good. Thankfully we have an entire cycle with Dresden and individual one offs with other orchestras like BRSO, BPO.

I cannot find any reviews outside of Amazon, where the set has nearly 100% 5-star ratings.

Sorry to hear that the sound is muffled or recessed!

[lordlance]

I cannot find any reviews outside of Amazon, where the set has nearly 100% 5-star ratings.

Sorry to hear that the sound is muffled or recessed!

Dave - who, granted, doesn't like Thielemann - talked on individual releases about the sound being poor but I heard it for myself with the Bruckner 1 disc. 

Huh I just Googled it. You're right. There's no proper review of the box set. How strange. This is the first complete Bruckner survey by VPO. That should in itself be a cause of interest even if it sucks.