GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Composer Discussion => Topic started by: bhodges on August 15, 2007, 08:28:16 AM

Title: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: bhodges on August 15, 2007, 08:28:16 AM
Wow, I can't believe we don't have a thread on Alban Berg (or I couldn't find it).  Of his amazing output, my favorites are the Three Pieces for Orchestra, Wozzeck, Lulu and the Violin Concerto.

Recently some of the blogs have been posting a pretty hilarious quiz, What major work by Alban Berg are you?  Here (http://www.quizilla.com/users/jarrettshorter/quizzes/What%20major%20work%20of%20Alban%20Berg%20are%20you%21%3F%21%3F%21) is the link. 

I got this result: "You are Berg's masterful first opera, "Wozzeck", op. 7, a tragic and expressionistic tale of a soldier who goes mad and kills his mistress due to the lack of power and wealth.  Society done did him wrong.  You are compassionate, emotional and righteous.  And a tad sentimental (for good reasons)."

Not sure I'm exactly thrilled, but oh well.  ;D

Other Berg fans, favorite works and recordings?

--Bruce
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: PSmith08 on August 15, 2007, 08:35:55 AM
"Machen Sie auf!...Machen Sie auf!"

Berg's Lulu, to me, would be a solid contender for the short list of 20th century opera. Berg proved that atonality doesn't have to be grating and unpleasant, and he took the idea of the Leitmotiv to an interesting conclusion.

My favorite recording, then, is Boulez' 1979 set of the "completed" version. That one has quite a cast, with Franz Mazura doing somewhat better then than he did for Boulez' Götterdämmerung.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: bhodges on August 15, 2007, 09:03:50 AM
Lulu is one of my four or five favorite operas, and yes, the Boulez version is marvelous.  (I don't mind the Cerha completion at all, although it appears to be still contentious.)  I also have the DVD with Christine Schäfer which is excellent, and want to see the one with Laura Aikin (although it is apparently the two-act version). 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Wendell_E on August 15, 2007, 09:06:12 AM
My result:

Quote(http://images.quizilla.com/J/jarrettshorter/1127364953_BergWife.jpg)
You are Berg's romantic but tragic "Lyric Suite" for string quartet, a work in which he secretly described his destined to be doomed love affair with his mistress by with a variety of secret codes and quotes, including use their intials as notes and "special numbers" in the music along with a whole secret vocal part to a text by Bauladaire! You are basically a romantic soul who wants sum puzzay!!!

Take this quiz (http://quizilla.com/redirect.php?statsid=17&url=http://www.quizilla.com/users/jarrettshorter/quizzes/)!


Quizilla (http://www.quizilla.com/redirect.php?statsid=18&url=http://www.quizilla.com/) | Join (http://www.quizilla.com/redirect.php?statsid=21&url=http://www.quizilla.com/register) | Make a Quiz (http://www.quizilla.com/redirect.php?statsid=21&url=http://www.quizilla.com/makeaquiz.php) | More Quizzes (http://www.quizilla.com/redirect.php?statsid=21&url=http://www.quizilla.com/users/jarrettshorter/quizzes/) | Grab Code (http://www.quizilla.com/redirect.php?statsid=42&url=http://www.quizilla.com/codepastes/)

I love the Lyric Suite, but I was hoping for Lulu.  I second PSmith08's sentiments regarding the work and the Boulez recording.  I'd even leave off the "20th century" part and make it "a solid contender for the short list of all opera".  If I'm asked to pick a favorite, that's usually it.

The Glyndebourne DVD with Christine Schäfer's really good too, but I keep hoping John Dexter's Met production (either the 1980 telecast with Migenes, or maybe the scheduled 2009-10 revival with Marlis Peterson) will make it to DVD.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Kullervo on August 15, 2007, 09:16:59 AM
For those that haven't read it, I recommend Willi Reich's illuminating biography on Berg. Very fascinating and entertaining read by someone very close to Berg.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Larry Rinkel on August 15, 2007, 09:43:59 AM
QuoteYou are Berg's ridiculously complicated Chamber Concerto. No one will ever figure you out and when they do, it probably won't be right.

1174 other people got this result!
This quiz has been taken 2523 times.
43% of people had this result.

Now can someone devise a similar quiz for Elgar?
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: beclemund on August 16, 2007, 06:26:59 AM
QuoteYou are Berg's final and perhaps greatest masterpiece, his opera "Lulu", unfinished at his death at 50 from an insect bite.
You are dirty, sexual, amoral and free to do as you please.
You carry several diseases.


208 other people got this result!
This quiz has been taken 2582 times.
7% of people had this result.

I knew I should never have picked Angelina. ;)

I do enjoy Wozzeck a great deal, but I admit I have failed to adequately break the surface of Berg and have not explored his other works. Wozzeck is so emotionally troubling that I have found it difficult to begin Lulu. I plan to correct that deficiency in the near future.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Larry Rinkel on August 16, 2007, 10:28:26 AM
Quote from: beclemund on August 16, 2007, 06:26:59 AM
I knew I should never have picked Angelina. ;)

I took it again:

QuoteYou are Berg's romantic but tragic "Lyric Suite" for string quartet, a work in which he secretly described his destined to be doomed love affair with his mistress by with a variety of secret codes and quotes, including use their intials as notes and "special numbers" in the music along with a whole secret vocal part to a text by Bauladaire! You are basically a romantic soul who wants sum puzzay!!!


664 other people got this result!
This quiz has been taken 2598 times.
24% of people had this result.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: greg on October 21, 2009, 03:00:31 PM
This can't be the only Berg thread... the last post was over two years ago.  ???

Anyways, anyone hear the Berg Passacaglia? I think it's unfinished or something... (just discovered it today)

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/nL3YuaNDEzA&feature=related

Sounds nice... must've served more as a practice orchestral work, maybe.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Franco on October 21, 2009, 03:25:37 PM
Alban Berg is one of my favorite composers, I love so much of his music but one piece that really stands out is a transcription: the slow movement from the Chamber Concerto scored for Clarinet, Violin and Piano.  If I had to say, the Chamber Concerto for Piano and Violin and 13 Wind Instruments is probably my favorite work but the Lulu Suite is really beautiful too.  There's nothing of his I don't like.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: snyprrr on October 21, 2009, 05:21:36 PM
I love his two SQs, Op.3, and the Lyric Suite. I would recommend either of the two ABQ versions over the Arditti, Kronos. LaSalle,...

Berg's Op.3 seems to begin where Schoenberg's Op.10 leaves off. His acheivement here seems so much more satisfying to me than Schoenberg's SQs 3-4, which come off sounding baroque compared with Berg's more intergrated modernism, a la Bartok's SQ No.3.

Whenever I hear "sounds like Berg", I think, "a little 'up', and little 'down',... very chromatic, very emotions based, like Romantic music on hallucinagens. Berg IS the "graveyard" that Romanticism went to after Wagner, the final, putrefying mass of decomposition (haha) stinking in the sweltering sun, like Baudelaire's chargone.

Berg used to be on my noisy loathsome list, but the ABQ have convinced me of his string music (they take the opening motif of Op.3 almost twice as fast as everyone I've heard (Kronos, good example), and they get it RIGHT by doing so (I don't know why no one else I've heard has done this?)). Of course, his Violin Concerto, and the pieces for orchestra, and really, since he has a fairly small output, he is much fun to collect. I can't do classical singing to well, but, who knows here?,....

Plus, wasn't he like a sex freak, or something?! :o :o :o

so decadent! ::)
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: bhodges on October 22, 2009, 01:12:03 PM
Quote from: Franco on October 21, 2009, 03:25:37 PM
Alban Berg is one of my favorite composers, I love so much of his music but one piece that really stands out is a transcription: the slow movement from the Chamber Concerto scored for Clarinet, Violin and Piano.  If I had to say, the Chamber Concerto for Piano and Violin and 13 Wind Instruments is probably my favorite work but the Lulu Suite is really beautiful too.  There's nothing of his I don't like.

In May 2010, Franz Welser-Möst and the Cleveland Orchestra are doing the Lulu Suite and Beethoven's Eroica on a concert at Carnegie Hall--an excellent program.

I also love the Chamber Concerto, which I just heard live last year with James Levine and the MET Chamber Ensemble in a fantastic performance.  It had (embarrassingly) been years since I'd heard it, and I was sitting there in awe, listening to it. 

Also love the Three Pieces for Orchestra, Op. 6 - endlessly fascinating.  It's on one of my favorite Berg recordings, below, with Levine, the MET Orchestra and Renée Fleming.  (Actually this is one of my favorite recordings of anything, period.)

--Bruce
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on July 06, 2010, 06:41:50 PM
It's a shame that Alban Berg isn't discussed more. I'm not sure how people here became interested in his music, but last year I bought the Anne-Sophie Mutter/James Levine recording of his on DG and went into the music with completely open-mind and I must have listened to this performance at least 11 times in a row. Berg casts his spell in the very opening movement of the work, which introduces that lovely, enigmatic tone row that makes up the composition. The story behind this work is also very interesting, which everybody here I'm sure knows already.

From the "Violin Concerto," I got into his other orchestral works like "Lulu-Suite," the orchestrated version of "Lyric Suite," and "Three Pieces for Orchestra." After I heard these wonderful compositions, I moved onto his song cycles, which I still playback "Seven Early Songs," "Der Wein," and "Altenberg-Lieder" quite often. I can't get into his operas yet, but then again, I've never been one for operas anyway. Of his chamber works, "Chamber Concerto" and "Piano Sonata" are quite interesting. I haven't heard "Lyric Suite" yet even though I own that DG set called "Alban Berg Collection." This is a fantastic set by the way.

Here are the only recordings I own of Berg (so far):

-Alban Berg Collection: Various Artists, 8-CDs, Deutsche Grammophon
-Boulez Conducts Berg: Pierre Boulez, BBC Symphony, NY Philharmonic, LSO, 5-CDs, Sony
-Lulu Suite, Three Pieces for Orchestra, Altenberg-Lieder, Claudio Abbado, LSO, Deutsche Grammophon
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on July 06, 2010, 07:17:24 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 06, 2010, 06:41:50 PM
It's a shame that Alban Berg isn't discussed more. I'm not sure how people here became interested in his music, but last year I bought the Anne-Sophie Mutter/James Levine recording of his on DG and went into the music with completely open-mind and I must have listened to this performance at least 11 times in a row. Berg casts his spell in the very opening movement of the work, which introduces that lovely, enigmatic tone row that makes up the composition. The story behind this work is also very interesting, which everybody here I'm sure knows already.

From the "Violin Concerto," I got into his other orchestral works like "Lulu-Suite," the orchestrated version of "Lyric Suite," and "Three Pieces for Orchestra." After I heard these wonderful compositions, I moved onto his song cycles, which I still playback "Seven Early Songs," "Der Wein," and "Altenberg-Lieder" quite often. I can't get into his operas yet, but then again, I've never been one for operas anyway. Of his chamber works, "Chamber Concerto" and "Piano Sonata" are quite interesting. I haven't heard "Lyric Suite" yet even though I own that DG set called "Alban Berg Collection." This is a fantastic set by the way.

Here are the only recordings I own of Berg (so far):

-Alban Berg Collection: Various Artists, 8-CDs, Deutsche Grammophon
-Boulez Conducts Berg: Pierre Boulez, BBC Symphony, NY Philharmonic, LSO, 5-CDs, Sony
-Lulu Suite, Three Pieces for Orchestra, Altenberg-Lieder, Claudio Abbado, LSO, Deutsche Grammophon

You must take the quiz:

http://quizilla.teennick.com/quizzes/1230003/what-major-work-of-alban-berg-are-you

I am Wozzeck. "9 other people got this result! That's 21%."
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on July 06, 2010, 07:25:24 PM
Quote from: Sforzando on July 06, 2010, 07:17:24 PM
You must take the quiz:

http://quizilla.teennick.com/quizzes/1230003/what-major-work-of-alban-berg-are-you (http://quizilla.teennick.com/quizzes/1230003/what-major-work-of-alban-berg-are-you)

I am Wozzeck. "9 other people got this result! That's 21%."

I am "Chamber Concerto." This quiz is undoubtedly moronic.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on July 06, 2010, 07:30:07 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 06, 2010, 07:25:24 PM
I am "Chamber Concerto." This quiz is undoubtedly moronic.

You are Berg's violent and tumultuous String Quartet, Op. 3, his first work fully in the Atonal idiom. You have a temper and are not afraid to let it use. But you also can be quiet and calm, perhaps contemplating more violence. Basically you're prick. 5 other people got this result! That's 11%

You are Berg's romantic but tragic "Lyric Suite" for string quartet, a work in which he secretly described his destined to be doomed love affair with his mistress by with a variety of secret codes and quotes, including use their intials as notes and "special numbers" in the music along with a whole secret vocal part to a text by Bauladaire! You are basically a romantic soul who wants sum puzzay!!!
6 other people got this result! That's 12%

You are Berg's ridiculously complicated Chamber Concerto. No one will ever figure you out and when they do, it probably won't be right. 17 other people got this result! That's 35%

You are Berg's final and perhaps greatest masterpiece, his opera "Lulu", unfinished at his death at 50 from an insect bite.
You are dirty, sexual, amoral and free to do as you please.
You carry several diseases. 9 other people got this result! That's 17%

::)
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: greg on July 06, 2010, 07:31:50 PM
Quote from: Sforzando on July 06, 2010, 07:17:24 PM
You must take the quiz:

http://quizilla.teennick.com/quizzes/1230003/what-major-work-of-alban-berg-are-you

I am Wozzeck. "9 other people got this result! That's 21%."

Mine:
You are Berg's ridiculously complicated Chamber Concerto. No one will ever figure you out and when they do, it probably won't be right.

lol  :D
The Chamber Concerto is probably the only work of his which I don't understand a note of. I'll experiment a little to see how to get the Three Pieces...
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Sid on July 06, 2010, 10:09:16 PM
I'm looking forward in a couple of months to attend a lecture on Berg by music scholar Andrew Ford, followed by a performance of Berg's Chamber Concerto. Then later in the year, Berg's String Quartet will be played by the Australian Flinders Quartet, one of our finest. I have never seen Berg done live so I am looking forward to both of these immensely.

I first learnt about Berg when I read about Wozzeck in a book on classical music. When I was 19 I bought a recording of that opera, and I connected with it immediately, even though I have never been a big fan of opera. I like it's drama, passion, and the way the themes are integrated and develeped.

In the last ten years I have familiarised myself with some of his other works - the string quartets, Lulu Suite, concertos and Piano Sonata. It is a pity that his output was so small, and a great tragedy (as Andrew Ford has written) that the man died comparatively young. Probably one of the greatest tragedies vis a vis classical music in the century.

At some stage, I hope to acquire Lulu. I have heard it on radio, and it was a tough listen. But the late Australian conductor Stuart Challender (a huge champion of Berg's music in this country) said that Lulu has this romantic lushness. I can certainly hear that in the suite, but I will have to invest some time (repeated listening) to it once I purchase it to discover that for myself.

In the early 2000's, Wozzeck was produced by the Australian Opera here in Sydney, but I missed seeing it. If they do stage either one of his operas again, I will most likely go. He is one of my favourite composers, but I also like Schoenberg and Webern.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: karlhenning on July 07, 2010, 04:08:47 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 06, 2010, 06:41:50 PM
. . . I own that DG set called "Alban Berg Collection." This is a fantastic set by the way.

It is!  I am still making my way through it, as well.  Having said that, I must have listened to the Chamber Concerto from that set three times already!
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: mjwal on July 07, 2010, 05:58:57 AM
Apart from the operas I must say that my private favourite of all his works is the Altenberglieder - amazingly concentrated, sensuous - and (for me) heart-opening in the last song. On comparing the three recordings I own I had to vote in favour of the Boulez recording on CBS LP, where I find Boulez at his best and the singer - Halina Lukomska - far more expressive in the way she sings the German language than either Margaret Price w/Abbado or Vlatka Orsanic w/Gielen, which I slightly prefer orchestrally - but the Lukomska version seems not to be on CD. I have not heard the Jessye Norman w/Boulez, but am ordering it. If she does a Strauss overkill on it it is a pity - I'll wait and see. It was amusing to read some reviewer in Fanfare (I think - it was on the net) recently call this work "twelve-tone", which of course it isn't, though it does use a 12-tone series melodically at one point; ironically, it seems to have been this work that Schoenberg singled out for severe criticism among his pupil's recent productions. He was himself some years away from developing the dodecaphonic system then...Stravinsky also seems to have held Berg's Op.4 in high regard: in one of the Craft/Strav. dialogue books he discourses eloquently on the piece, as I remember.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: karlhenning on July 07, 2010, 10:20:44 AM
So is the Lyric Suite really completely serial?  And the source set is an all-interval set?

Sounds surprisingly (oh, I'll go ahead and say) lyrical . . . .
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: snyprrr on July 07, 2010, 10:45:05 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 07, 2010, 10:20:44 AM
So is the Lyric Suite really completely serial?  And the source set is an all-interval set?

Sounds surprisingly (oh, I'll go ahead and say) lyrical . . . .


Isn't there a blatant G Major chord towards the beginning of the last piece? :o I thought someone around here was looking for some meaning there.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: karlhenning on July 07, 2010, 10:47:49 AM
Well, the last piece for the quartet is Largo desolato;  the last piece for string orchestra is fourth of six for the quartet, Adagio appassionato.

As for meaning . . . I read that Adorno called the Lyrica Suite "a latent opera."
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on July 07, 2010, 11:34:13 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 07, 2010, 10:20:44 AMSounds surprisingly (oh, I'll go ahead and say) lyrical . . . .

That is exactly what I've been pointing out in my posts about Berg. Almost everything he composed had this deep Romantic lyricism to it. Even when Berg is at his most brutal he's still just so lyrically expressive.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Luke on July 07, 2010, 11:34:30 AM
Well, there's meaning alright, the whole hidden programme thing in Berg's typical cryptographic manner - is that what you meant?
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: karlhenning on July 07, 2010, 11:36:17 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 07, 2010, 10:45:05 AM
Isn't there a blatant G Major chord towards the beginning of the last piece?

Triads (whether blatant or latent) are a component of the series.

According to Wikipedia (and I am guessing there are actual sources for these
; ) ::

The first row statement in the first number of the suite is:
F E C A G D Ab Db Eb Gb Bb Cb

Note that E - C - A spells an a minor triad, and that Eb Gb Bb spells an eb minor triad.  Note too that the second hexachord [Ab Db Eb Gb Bb Cb] is a transposition (at the interval of a tritone) of the first hexachord [F E C A G D] in retrograde.

Something which Berg does in the course of the piece is, he takes the constituent tetrachords of the original row, [F E C A] + [G D Ab Db] + [Eb Gb Bb Cb], and rotates the tetrachords. (The result is a different series, but the 'building blocks' of the two series are the same, so the two series are closely related.)  Thus:

[Eb Gb Bb Cb]  + [F E C A] + [G D Ab Db]

This derived set, we see, begins with a minor triad.  If we invert that derived set, the opening triad becomes major . . . so we can certainly have a number of the Lyric Suite opening with a G major triad, and yet the piece can still be completely serial.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Franco on July 07, 2010, 11:36:52 AM
I read the Wikipedia article on Lyric Suite and discovered a book by George Perle that looks interesting.  Actually, two books, one an extended anaysis of the work, not as interesting, but another of a more general look at 20th C. music.  Very tempting. 

I've got his "Twelve-Tone Tonality" but haven't ever studied much of that book. 

Maybe now is the time.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Luke on July 07, 2010, 11:42:01 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 07, 2010, 11:36:17 AM
Triads (whether blatant or latent) are a component of the series.

According to Wikipedia (and I am guessing there are actual sources for these
; ) ::

The first row statement in the first number of the suite is:
F E C A G D Ab Db Eb Gb Bb Cb

Note that E - C - A spells an a minor triad, and that Eb Gb Bb spells an eb minor triad.  Note too that the second hexachord [Ab Db Eb Gb Bb Cb] is a transposition (at the interval of a tritone) of the first hexachord [F E C A G D] in retrograde.

Something which Berg does in the course of the piece is, he takes the constituent tetrachords of the original row, [F E C A] + [G D Ab Db] + [Eb Gb Bb Cb], and rotates the tetrachords. (The result is a different series, but the 'building blocks' of the two series are the same, so the two series are closely related.)  Thus:

[Eb Gb Bb Cb] + [G D Ab Db] + [F E C A]

This derived set, we see, begins with a minor triad.  If we invert that derived set, the opening traid becomes major . . . so we can certainly have a number of the Lyric Suite opening with a G major triad, and yet the piece can still be completely serial.

More obviously than that, and the sort of tangible, instrument-based thing that appealed to Berg the symbolist and Berg the musical dramatist*, note that the row separates white notes from black notes, which gives, among other things, those characteristic black-to-white sideslip harmonies in the first movement. Berg loved that kind of thing, it appealed to his symbolist-dramatist nature, as I said. In Lulu you get all those cluster chords in the piano, white and black, calling for vigour, muscle and visible athleticism from the pianist - and, fittingly and designedly, it is the row derived for the Acrobat that works that way IIRC - long time since I looked at this stuff, I might be misremembering.

*like all the open strings in the Violin Concerto, highlighted and prioritised in the row, for instance... in Bergian serialism all notes are not created equal!  :D
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: karlhenning on July 07, 2010, 11:45:55 AM
Yes, though Cb is a white note spelled like a black note : )
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: not edward on July 07, 2010, 11:49:11 AM
Is there any Berg serial work where the row (or rows) do not have some clear nod to conventional tonality? (Maybe his second setting of Schliesse mir die Augen beide?)
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: karlhenning on July 07, 2010, 11:51:18 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 07, 2010, 11:45:55 AM
Yes, though Cb is a white note spelled like a black note : )

And its placement as the last element in the row emphasizes Luke's point . . . sort of ma fin est mon commencement.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Luke on July 07, 2010, 11:52:19 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 07, 2010, 11:45:55 AM
Yes, though Cb is a white note spelled like a black note : )

But it's the end of the row, see - it connects back to the F at the beginning; the black notes are all congruent as notes 7-11. Even the bookending of the row with the B and the F is symbolic, of course - B=H: H-F = Hanna Fuchs Robettin, the woman (my great grea great aunt, or something similar, FWIW!) with whom Berg had the affair encrypted in the Lyric Suite in great detail.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Luke on July 07, 2010, 11:52:52 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 07, 2010, 11:51:18 AM
And its placement as the last element in the row emphasizes Luke's point . . . sort of ma fin est mon commencement.

Yes, crossed posts - that's what I was saying, or part of it.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: karlhenning on July 07, 2010, 11:53:30 AM
Quote from: Luke on July 07, 2010, 11:52:19 AM
But it's the end of the row, see - it connects back to the F at the beginning; the black notes are all congruent as notes 7-11. Even the bookending of the row with the B and the F is sybolic, of course - B=H: H-F = Hanna Fuchs Robettin, the woman (my great grea great aunt, or something similar, FWIW!) with whom Berg had the affair encrypted in the Lyric Suite in great detail.

Yes, thanks. Illuminating and fascinating!
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: karlhenning on July 07, 2010, 11:54:26 AM
Quote from: edward on July 07, 2010, 11:49:11 AM
Is there any Berg serial work where the row (or rows) do not have some clear nod to conventional tonality? (Maybe his second setting of Schliesse mir die Augen beide?)

Didn't meant to ignore your post, Edward . . . to answer it is out of my depth. Perhaps Luke can help.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: karlhenning on July 07, 2010, 11:56:05 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 07, 2010, 11:34:13 AM
That is exactly what I've been pointing out in my posts about Berg. Almost everything he composed had this deep Romantic lyricism to it. Even when Berg is at his most brutal he's still just so lyrically expressive.

True.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Luke on July 07, 2010, 12:00:21 PM
It's a great question [Edward's, I mean]....and I don't know the answer OTTOMH! Der Wein has that D minor-ish row; the Chamber Concerto's row has a few mellifluous thirds and triads in it; the Violin Concerto's clearly is full of strong tonal pulls...but the quasi-row as used in the passacaglia scene of Wozzeck is fairly free of triads IIRC.

Ha - just pulled up this page: basic rows for the works of the Second Viennese composers (http://www.people.carleton.edu/~jlondon/2ndviennese.htm). My recollections of the rows basically echoed here, I think.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: karlhenning on July 07, 2010, 12:02:40 PM
QuoteYou are Berg's ridiculously complicated Chamber Concerto.

I'm not (I haven't taken the quiz) . . . but on the lines of Luke's remarks on Liszt on his own piece, the complication is part and parcel of what the piece is about.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: karlhenning on July 07, 2010, 12:05:08 PM
Quote from: Luke on July 07, 2010, 12:00:21 PM
...but the quasi-row as used in the passacaglia scene of Wozzeck is fairly free of triads IIRC.

Ha - just pulled up this page: basic rows for the works of the Second Viennese composers (http://www.people.carleton.edu/~jlondon/2ndviennese.htm). My recollections of the rows basically echoed here, I think.

Great resource, thanks!  And your recollection is confirmed . . . for Berg, relatively triad-free (an augmented and a diminished triad notwithstanding).
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: karlhenning on July 07, 2010, 12:07:06 PM
So Der Wein begins with an ascending harmonic minor scale?  Lemme cue that baby up . . . .
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: not edward on July 07, 2010, 12:13:06 PM
Quote from: Luke on July 07, 2010, 12:00:21 PM
It's a great question [Edward's, I mean]....and I don't know the answer OTTOMH! Der Wein has that D minor-ish row; the Chamber Concerto's row has a few mellifluous thirds and triads in it; the Violin Concerto's clearly is full of strong tonal pulls...but the quasi-row as used in the passacaglia scene of Wozzeck is fairly free of triads IIRC.

Ha - just pulled up this page: basic rows for the works of the Second Viennese composers (http://www.people.carleton.edu/~jlondon/2ndviennese.htm). My recollections of the rows basically echoed here, I think.
Great link, thanks, and does pretty much answer my question. :)
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: karlhenning on July 07, 2010, 12:22:06 PM
You know it's been too long since you've listened to the Berg Violin Concerto, if you've forgotten that there's an alto saxophone in the score.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on July 07, 2010, 02:43:42 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 07, 2010, 12:22:06 PM
You know it's been too long since you've listened to the Berg Violin Concerto, if you've forgotten that there's an alto saxophone in the score.

Berg's "Violin Concerto" was the work that got me into Berg. It's brutal, tragic, full of sadness, anxious, nervous, but then when those explosions of brass happen in the second movement I just felt complete. It was as though I've heard this music all along I just didn't have the necessary ears to hear it. I feel so bad that I've put it off for so long. My reference recording is, of course, Anne Sophie Mutter/Levine/CSO on DG. That performance is the best I've heard.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_umVPctM9AqI/SfiFq6Asq0I/AAAAAAAABLg/XlV2SOmmDc0/s320/mutter_berg_rihm.jpg)

Anyone who doesn't own this recording and calls themselves a classical fan should be ashamed of themselves, I know I would be.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: karlhenning on July 07, 2010, 03:55:12 PM
It's a tougher man than I would brand a wolf.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Sid on July 07, 2010, 06:36:48 PM
I have Isaac Stern's performance of the Violin Concerto, made in the '50's with the NYPO under Bernstein & it's pretty good. Most people know that it's kind of like a requiem for the daughter of two of Berg's friends, but the liner notes also relate an interesting story vis a vis the gestation of the work. Berg incorporates a Viennese waltz theme in the first movement (he loved J. Strauss), and to balance that there is turmoil at the beginning of the second movement followed by a calming quotation of a chorale by J. S. Bach. Berg asked his publisher to send him a Bach score, and they ended up sending him the exact cantata (No. 60, if I remember correctly?) that he had begun to quote in the conclusion. This was obviously an unconscious thing he did, but the coincidence is pretty uncanny (if it was written in a novel or related in a movie, you'd think it's fiction).

I would like to see this work done live, but I'm gearing up to see Berg's Chamber Concerto as well as the first string quartet played live here in Sydney in coming months...
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on July 07, 2010, 06:54:28 PM
Quote from: Sid on July 07, 2010, 06:36:48 PM
I have Isaac Stern's performance of the Violin Concerto, made in the '50's with the NYPO under Bernstein & it's pretty good. Most people know that it's kind of like a requiem for the daughter of two of Berg's friends, but the liner notes also relate an interesting story vis a vis the gestation of the work. Berg incorporates a Viennese waltz theme in the first movement (he loved J. Strauss), and to balance that there is turmoil at the beginning of the second movement followed by a calming quotation of a chorale by J. S. Bach. Berg asked his publisher to send him a Bach score, and they ended up sending him the exact cantata (No. 60, if I remember correctly?) that he had begun to quote in the conclusion. This was obviously an unconscious thing he did, but the coincidence is pretty uncanny (if it was written in a novel or related in a movie, you'd think it's fiction).

I would like to see this work done live, but I'm gearing up to see Berg's Chamber Concerto as well as the first string quartet played live here in Sydney in coming months...

Here is an interesting article from Wikipedia about his "Violin Concerto":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violin_Concerto_(Berg) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violin_Concerto_(Berg))

I've been reading more about Berg's life and it certainly is fascinating to read about his metamorphasis from a complete musical novice to a composer of significance. His "Piano Sonata" was the first work that brought him attention, but it was "Wozzeck" that brought him critical acclaim.

Here is an ideal concert program for me that I would love to see off the top of my head:

1. Webern: Im Sommerwind
2. Berg: Violin Concerto
3. Schoenberg: Gurrelieder

James Levine, Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Violin Soloist: Anne Sophie Mutter

This would be pretty incredible for me. I still have to figure out who the vocal soloists would be in this performance of "Gurrelieder" though.

Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on July 15, 2010, 04:41:13 PM
Quote from: mjwal on July 07, 2010, 05:58:57 AM
Apart from the operas I must say that my private favourite of all his works is the Altenberglieder - amazingly concentrated, sensuous - and (for me) heart-opening in the last song. On comparing the three recordings I own I had to vote in favour of the Boulez recording on CBS LP, where I find Boulez at his best and the singer - Halina Lukomska - far more expressive in the way she sings the German language than either Margaret Price w/Abbado or Vlatka Orsanic w/Gielen, which I slightly prefer orchestrally - but the Lukomska version seems not to be on CD. I have not heard the Jessye Norman w/Boulez, but am ordering it. If she does a Strauss overkill on it it is a pity - I'll wait and see. It was amusing to read some reviewer in Fanfare (I think - it was on the net) recently call this work "twelve-tone", which of course it isn't, though it does use a 12-tone series melodically at one point; ironically, it seems to have been this work that Schoenberg singled out for severe criticism among his pupil's recent productions. He was himself some years away from developing the dodecaphonic system then...Stravinsky also seems to have held Berg's Op.4 in high regard: in one of the Craft/Strav. dialogue books he discourses eloquently on the piece, as I remember.

I have Boulez's Altenberglieder as well as both of Abbado's (Price and Otter). I haven't heard the Boulez yet. There's a box set that has just been released of Boulez conducting Berg on Sony, which most people already bought individually, but I got such a fantastic deal on this box that I couldn't pass it up.

Anyway, Altenberglieder is a great work. I think I'm more partial to Berg's Seven Early Songs though. I think these are just so gorgeous and of course I'm talking about the version which Berg orchestrated. Absolutely beautiful.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: mjwal on July 18, 2010, 03:09:50 AM
Having now listened to the Boulez/Norman CD, I must say I find the Sieben frühe Lieder pretty (and) vacuous; Norman's voice is under strain, and the orchestral accompaniment, though in itself richly masterful, blows up these high-class Strauss imitations to unmanageable proportions, continually sounding overladen (over-miked?). A couple of years earlier in Op.4 she was in better, in fact beautiful voice and the recording sounds better. I like this, but I think I like Gielen/Orsanic a tad better; the orchestra sounds more acerbic, less like a prolongation of the stale cream puffery of the early songs (however attractive to the sweet tooth it may be). Swings and roundabouts in this, but it was definitely worth getting the Boulez/Norman disc for this alone. It certainly points up the closeness of Berg's compositorial voice here to his eventual post-romantic/serial synthesis in Lulu. I still like the earlier Boulez/Lukomska best in the Altenberg-Lieder (CBS LP). The Jugendlieder are charming, if insignificant - Norman actually sounds better here several years after the Sieben frühe Lieder sessions, able to manage her voice better with a piano accompaniment. - I admit I am exaggerating a little for effect in my characterisations, but not much.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Sid on July 29, 2010, 04:59:45 PM
Can anyone shed some light on the Chamber Concerto? I'll be seeing it done live here in Sydney in October. I just listened to it on cd last night, and it's beginning to make sense, but it still sounds pretty wierd (that's ok, I like wierd!). It was written to celebrate the friendship between Berg, Webern & Schoenberg (& for the latter's 50th birthday). The musical form of their names appear in the first movement, a theme and variations.

The odd scoring of this work reminds me strongly of Janacek's Capriccio for piano left hand and winds. Some of the quirky sounds are similar too. Some of the passages played by the violin remind me of a donkey! I suspect that with repeated listening I will come some way to understanding it. But I'm not going to hold my breath, I've been listening to the Lyric Suite for string quartet for 15 years, and can't really make head nor tail of it. But I enjoy it & that's what counts for me.

Here is the wikipedia article on Berg's Chamber Concerto, which explains the work pretty well, but I would like to get people's personal reactions & interpretations of the work as well...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kammerkonzert
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: karlhenning on July 29, 2010, 05:49:57 PM
I first heard the piece broadcast on radio, so this was back in the days when WQXR New York was not yet a toothless bearded hag.  The Chamber Concerto electrified me on first hearing.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Sid on July 29, 2010, 11:24:04 PM
I couldn't really comprehend either Berg's Violin Concerto or his Chamber Concerto upon first hearing them. The both seemed pretty hard to understand at first. The latter, I feel, is still pretty bewildering. But it's not the type of music that I would listen to repeatedly in a short space of time - I like to spread out my listening of "complex" works like this over a longer period. That way, I can go away and think about them, and then come back to them with some more solid ideas as to what he wanted to get across in these works. But these two works are just like night and day, one of them a requiem, the other a birthday present. They were also written about ten years apart, the Chamber Concerto is (if I am not mistaken?) more strictly serial, whilst the Violin Concerto is much freer in it's treatment of the 12 note system. But one thing that I can hear in common is that both use the Viennese waltz, which Berg loved, he was a huge fan of Johann Strauss II. The Violin Concerto comes around full circle, with the tuning up phrase/theme returning, whilst the Chamber Concerto seems to end in an almost unexpected (and bizarre?) way...
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: karlhenning on July 30, 2010, 04:19:21 AM
Do you know, with each hearing, I was gradually more and more convinced by the ending of its rightness.

The Kammerkonzert really does take some living with; and I am with you, in that it is substantial enough, and 'hermetic' enough, that I need space between hearings . . . I could not do the three hearings in a day drill which I might do with many another piece.


Over the decades, I've done a pendulum swing with the piece, too: as reported, I was really pumped about the piece the first I heard it (might attribute part of that to the fact that here was this half-hour's piece of unrelenting atonality, coming right off the radio back in the days of analog).  Some years later, the fact that I couldn't quite make head or tail of it turned my ears against the piece for . . . oh, several years.  But a couple of years ago (as part of a general trend I favor of going back to hear pieces, just in case, you know) I revisited the piece, and it was like hearing it again for the first time.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: mjwal on July 30, 2010, 09:02:30 AM
I could never relate to the Kammerkonzert on recordings - I still can't - but a few years ago I attended a concert by the Ensemble Modern and it all came together and made perfect sense (as Carter's Double Concerto had on another occasion with the EM). Alas, my memory is too bad to be able to recall why, (apart from perfect clarity, balance, phrasing) - but I do know now that the work can make such an effect.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: snyprrr on August 20, 2010, 06:51:51 PM
BUMP
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 01, 2010, 08:15:28 PM
BUMP
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: snyprrr on October 05, 2010, 10:01:01 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 30, 2010, 04:19:21 AM
Do you know, with each hearing, I was gradually more and more convinced by the ending of its rightness.

The Kammerkonzert really does take some living with; and I am with you, in that it is substantial enough, and 'hermetic' enough, that I need space between hearings . . . I could not do the three hearings in a day drill which I might do with many another piece.


Over the decades, I've done a pendulum swing with the piece, too: as reported, I was really pumped about the piece the first I heard it (might attribute part of that to the fact that here was this half-hour's piece of unrelenting atonality, coming right off the radio back in the days of analog).  Some years later, the fact that I couldn't quite make head or tail of it turned my ears against the piece for . . . oh, several years.  But a couple of years ago (as part of a general trend I favor of going back to hear pieces, just in case, you know) I revisited the piece, and it was like hearing it again for the first time.

Who's in the running on cd? I know there's Holliger/Telarc, and the famous DG, and probably a Gielen or something...

I'll have to YouTube it tomorrow.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 06, 2010, 03:35:28 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on October 05, 2010, 10:01:01 PM
Who's in the running on cd? I know there's Holliger/Telarc, and the famous DG, and probably a Gielen or something...

My favorite version, very lush and Romantic, with slower tempi than Boulez, is Sinopoli with the Dresden.

Sarge
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: abidoful on October 13, 2010, 10:53:53 AM
Quote from: Sid on July 29, 2010, 04:59:45 PM
Can anyone shed some light on the Chamber Concerto? I'll be seeing it done live here in Sydney in October. I just listened to it on cd last night, and it's beginning to make sense, but it still sounds pretty wierd (that's ok, I like wierd!). It was written to celebrate the friendship between Berg, Webern & Schoenberg (& for the latter's 50th birthday). The musical form of their names appear in the first movement, a theme and variations.

The odd scoring of this work reminds me strongly of Janacek's Capriccio for piano left hand and winds. Some of the quirky sounds are similar too. Some of the passages played by the violin remind me of a donkey! I suspect that with repeated listening I will come some way to understanding it. But I'm not going to hold my breath, I've been listening to the Lyric Suite for string quartet for 15 years, and can't really make head nor tail of it. But I enjoy it & that's what counts for me.

Here is the wikipedia article on Berg's Chamber Concerto, which explains the work pretty well, but I would like to get people's personal reactions & interpretations of the work as well...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kammerkonzert
First I found the Chamber Concerto sort of dry and aggressive sounding- actually i haven't heard a recording of it  that i like absolutely;I have only one that of Boulez with Daniel Baremboim at the piano.

I like it becouse I'm a pianist and fascinated of everything that Berg wrote fot the piano. I don't think the first movement piano solo cadenza should sound brutal. But sensuos and lyrical! And i think it's a humorous (besides the 2nd movement) piece and  full of joy of music making--it sounds like a big band stuff! Sort of Jazz-like...!
The final movement should be played in it's entity, with the repeat IMO. I think it's more effective that way. Some recordings omit that repeat...! The ending IS great!
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 18, 2010, 02:29:09 PM
Unbelieve that this incredible composer only has three pages here. What a shame, but in any event: BUMP!!!
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: bhodges on October 18, 2010, 02:44:43 PM
He's sort of one of my unofficial "three B's": Bartók, Berg and Britten.  Love too many works to count--by all three.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 18, 2010, 06:15:21 PM
Quote from: bhodges on October 18, 2010, 02:44:43 PM
He's sort of one of my unofficial "three B's": Bartók, Berg and Britten.  Love too many works to count--by all three.

--Bruce

Yes, I have my own three B's as well: Bruckner, Bartok, and Berg.

Let me ask you, bhodges, to continue to keep this ball rolling, what is it about Berg's music that you enjoy so much?
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: DavidW on October 18, 2010, 06:55:53 PM
Has anyone seen the Schafer/Schone/Davis/LPO dvd of Lulu?  It's available on netflix and I wonder if I should add it to my queue. :)
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Scarpia on October 18, 2010, 09:55:09 PM
Quote from: DavidW on October 18, 2010, 06:55:53 PM
Has anyone seen the Schafer/Schone/Davis/LPO dvd of Lulu?  It's available on netflix and I wonder if I should add it to my queue. :)

What risk is there in that?
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Wendell_E on October 19, 2010, 12:19:06 AM
Quote from: DavidW on October 18, 2010, 06:55:53 PM
Has anyone seen the Schafer/Schone/Davis/LPO dvd of Lulu?  It's available on netflix and I wonder if I should add it to my queue. :)

Yes, and hell, yes!!!!

I've also got the Met version with Migenes, Levine conducting, and the recent Covent Garden production conducted by Pappano, but I think I like that Glyndebourne one you're talking about best.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: DavidW on October 19, 2010, 06:51:33 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 18, 2010, 09:55:09 PM
What risk is there in that?

I haven't heard the work before, if I'm imprinted with a poor performance I might grow to dislike it (well I would like to think that I would simply try another recording in the future but who knows.)

Quote from: Wendell_E on October 19, 2010, 12:19:06 AM
Yes, and hell, yes!!!!

I've also got the Met version with Migenes, Levine conducting, and the recent Covent Garden production conducted by Pappano, but I think I like that Glyndebourne one you're talking about best.

Alright message received!  It's on the top of my queue now! ;D ;D
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Sid on October 25, 2010, 03:58:16 PM
I just saw a live performance of the Kammerkonzert here in Sydney last week. It was preceded by a talk on the Second Viennese School by musicologist, composer and radio broadcaster Andrew Ford. The whole work is based on the musical notations (motto themes) of the names of Schoenberg, Berg and Webern which are heard on the piano, violin and horn at the beginning respectively. Ford said that these themes are also tied to what each composer's music is like - the piano theme is the most complex, the violin has an air of "romantic rumination,"  and the horn's theme is a bit spiky. The symmetry of this work is pretty obvious as Ford explained it, eg. it's for 15 players in total (a number neatly divisible by 3), and in three movements. There's quite a bit of humour here too, not only in the reference to Berg's favoured waltz music, but also how in the first movement, which is dominated by the piano, the violinist plays four notes (in effect, "tuning up," as at the beginning of the later violin concerto). Ford also mentioned that this is not a strictly serial work - the technique was here, as always, used flexibly by Berg. The middle movement has the violin as soloist, a foretaste of what Berg would do in the violin concerto. & the finale has both soloists coming to the fore. The world of Wozzeck seems not too far away in this work, though the overall mood is perhaps a bit lighter. I enjoyed the concert (which also included Schoenberg's Serenade) and look forward to seeing Berg's String Quartet played live here in Sydney in December by the Melbourne-based Flinders Quartet...
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: bhodges on October 25, 2010, 04:48:59 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 18, 2010, 06:15:21 PM

Yes, I have my own three B's as well: Bruckner, Bartok, and Berg.

Let me ask you, bhodges, to continue to keep this ball rolling, what is it about Berg's music that you enjoy so much?

I could go on about Berg for days (so I won't, since I don't have time  ;D).  Can't recall what piece I heard first--probably the Violin Concerto--but then got into the operas, the chamber music, and the Three Pieces for Orchestra.  (To be fair, wasn't until I saw Wozzeck and Lulu staged that I began to really love those.)

Somehow he managed to make twelve-tone rows sound beautiful (to my ears, as did both Schoenberg and Webern, but in very different ways).  There are moments in both operas that are ravishing, e.g., the orchestral interludes in Wozzeck, or the final scene in Lulu.

And a good reading of the Three Pieces (e.g., by Levine and the Met Orchestra) can leave you spellbound.  But then, I love hearing (and watching) a large orchestra at full blast.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 25, 2010, 06:22:27 PM
Quote from: bhodges on October 25, 2010, 04:48:59 PM
I could go on about Berg for days (so I won't, since I don't have time  ;D ).  Can't recall what piece I heard first--probably the Violin Concerto--but then got into the operas, the chamber music, and the Three Pieces for Orchestra.  (To be fair, wasn't until I saw Wozzeck and Lulu staged that I began to really love those.)

Somehow he managed to make twelve-tone rows sound beautiful (to my ears, as did both Schoenberg and Webern, but in very different ways).  There are moments in both operas that are ravishing, e.g., the orchestral interludes in Wozzeck, or the final scene in Lulu.

And a good reading of the Three Pieces (e.g., by Levine and the Met Orchestra) can leave you spellbound.  But then, I love hearing (and watching) a large orchestra at full blast.

--Bruce

Berg was my gateway into 12-tone music. I still can't stomach some of Schoenberg's or Webern's music, but I enjoy a lot of their works, but there's just something about Berg that keeps me coming back. Like you said, he made those tone rows just sound so beautiful and I love his attention to the overall dynamics of his music. He makes those spiky sounding transitions that are so evident in a lot of 12-tone music sound seemless and lyrical.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Sid on October 25, 2010, 06:32:44 PM
It's a bit wierd, here we have people talking about how 12 tone rows sound, but in reality, you can't hear them - to most of us they are hidden. Unless you're a conductor with the score, of course...
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 25, 2010, 06:39:22 PM
Quote from: Sid on October 25, 2010, 06:32:44 PM
It's a bit wierd, here we have people talking about how 12 tone rows sound, but in reality, you can't hear them - to most of us they are hidden. Unless you're a conductor with the score, of course...

I can hear them, Sid. You don't need the score in front of you to tell that the music composed uses the 12-tone system. This method of composition has a certain sound, but of course, it's up the composer to choose the 12 notes they want to use. It lies within the composer's imagination.

Listen to Berg and then go listen to Franz Schmidt. The differences in the methods used are like night and day.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Sid on October 25, 2010, 06:51:40 PM
I was not talking in terms of distinguishing Berg's style, but his use of 12 tone rows. Without a thorough knowledge of the score, it is well nigh impossible to hear where "the row" pops up. We talk about 12 tone melodies without really knowing exactly where the melody is. That's why these are not tunes that one would whistle on the street. But I was talking to Andrew Ford after his lecture last week, and he said that part of the attraction of serial music is that it often leaves many questions unanswered; I still don't "get" a piece like the Lyric Suite for string quartet after listening to it for 15 years (and that's ok). Neither Schoenberg, Webern or Berg used the method strictly - they were flexible - so from even a strictly technical point of view they had an element of the impulsive (or romantic?) artist in them. Studying the score, conductors and composers could probably find "the row" - it was easy according to Ford for him as a music student to find it in Webern's music - but I don't think it's easy to answer why they did certain things in a certain way, developing their themes. They were just as creative as composers of the past...
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 25, 2010, 07:13:36 PM
Quote from: Sid on October 25, 2010, 06:51:40 PM
I was not talking in terms of distinguishing Berg's style, but his use of 12 tone rows. Without a thorough knowledge of the score, it is well nigh impossible to hear where "the row" pops up. We talk about 12 tone melodies without really knowing exactly where the melody is. That's why these are not tunes that one would whistle on the street. But I was talking to Andrew Ford after his lecture last week, and he said that part of the attraction of serial music is that it often leaves many questions unanswered; I still don't "get" a piece like the Lyric Suite for string quartet after listening to it for 15 years (and that's ok). Neither Schoenberg, Webern or Berg used the method strictly - they were flexible - so from even a strictly technical point of view they had an element of the impulsive (or romantic?) artist in them. Studying the score, conductors and composers could probably find "the row" - it was easy according to Ford for him as a music student to find it in Webern's music - but I don't think it's easy to answer why they did certain things in a certain way, developing their themes. They were just as creative as composers of the past...

I just enjoy the music, Sid. Let's not get too technical about it. You did mention something that was quite odd when you said:

Quote from: Sid on October 25, 2010, 06:51:40 PM
They (Schoenberg, Berg, Webern) were just as creative as composers of the past...

What in the world does this have to do with anything? Of course they were creative. They're recognized today for their art and creativity. Isn't this common knowledge?

You seem very argumentative today. Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed again?
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 25, 2010, 08:51:46 PM
I've got a good question for you guys: what vocalist, in your opinion, has the scariest scream in Lulu-Suite?

For me, it has to be Judith Blegen in the Boulez/NYPO recording. Usually, I'm prepared for the scream, but my goodness, she really scared the s@#* out of me! :)
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Sid on October 26, 2010, 06:03:00 PM
Yes, that soprano solo made an impact on me as well, the first time I heard the Lulu Suite. What impressed me most, however, is the extreme vocal agility needed to perform it. I've still got the same CD I bought in the '90's from Woolworths for about $2 (they don't sell these kinds of things anymore, but they used to then). It's on the German budget label, PILZ. The soprano is not credited, but the orchestra is the Nuremberg Symphony conducted by Othmar Maga. It also contains Schoenberg's Chamber Symphony No. 2 & a violin sonata by Hindemith. I remember hearing another recording on radio, and I believe the conductor was Abbado with the Berlin Phil.

Despite his small output, Berg produced some amazing works, not only the two operas, but the rest of his stuff are top-notch as well. I really like the String Quartet & Wozzeck, the first works that I got to know by him in the mid-'90's. I think that the 1970's must have been an exciting time for Berg fans, with the performance of the completed version of Lulu. The late Australian conductor Stuart Challender, who loved promgramming Berg with the Sydney Symphony, said that Lulu was the most luscious and romantic score that Berg ever produced. Listening to it on radio a while back, I found it hard not to agree - some of the aspects of how he orchestrated it (or the way it was re-orchestrated?) reminded me strongly of Wagner or Mahler...
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 07, 2010, 09:49:49 PM
Bruce,

You will be happy to know I stumbled upon a used, like new copy of that Levine/MET Orchestra Sony recording that you praised earlier in this thread for around $14, which I guess isn't too bad considering this recording doesn't look like it's going to come back into print anytime soon. I can't wait to hear it! Levine shows such an affinity for this music or at least judging from his recording with Mutter he does.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: bhodges on November 08, 2010, 07:18:44 AM
Well, hope I haven't "oversold" the Levine/MET Berg recording--but $14 is a fantastic price, considering what I've seen it for some places. 

PS, this might be a good time to repost this link, from a site called Themefinder.  They have a list of Berg, Schoenberg and Webern's tone rows used in various works:

http://www.ccarh.org/publications/data/humdrum/tonerow/

--Bruce
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 08, 2010, 07:31:10 AM
Quote from: bhodges on November 08, 2010, 07:18:44 AMWell, hope I haven't "oversold" the Levine/MET Berg recording--but $14 is a fantastic price, considering what I've seen it for some places.

Bruce, no you haven't "oversold" this recording, in fact, I have been looking at for awhile, but the price just was too high the various times I was looking at it. Levine loves Berg's music and you can feel it in that Mutter performance. Renee Fleming singing on Lulu Suite and various excerpts from Wozzeck will be great.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 14, 2010, 10:10:47 AM
Quote from: James on November 14, 2010, 09:57:57 AM
VIOLIN CONCERTO
Few twentieth-century works are as wrenchingly moving as Berg's Violin Concerto, written in response to the death in 1935 of Manon Gropius, the 18-year-old daughter of Alma Mahler and architect Walter Gropius. The violinist Louis Krasner had already commissioned a concerto from Berg, who broke off from Lulu to write the piece, dedicated "to the memory of an angel". Berg scholars, who enjoy nothing more than the composer's cryptological and numerological obsessions, have uncovered "a secret programme" of references to Berg's mistress, Hanna Fuchs-Robettin, and to Berg's illegitimate daughter, progeny of a youthful affair with a servant girl in the Berg household.

Be that as it may, the Violin Concerto needs no secret programme to work its magic. Reconciling the twelve-tone system with traditional tonality, Berg quotes from Carpathian folk tune in the opening movement, and from the Bach chorale Es ist genug (It is enough) in the second movement. The concerto begins as if the soloist were tuning the violin against the orchestra, but tension quickly mounts as the music becomes more agitated. As in Lulu, Berg then reverses the process, the music slowing, growing ever quieter until the Bach chorale steals in, and violin and orchestra sink into a mood of loss and resignation.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51S3S4X-ttL._AA300_.jpg)

Anne-Sophie Mutter's panache plays rich dividends in a work demanding a match between free fantasy and cast-iron discipline. Under James Levine, the Chicago Symphony Orchestra provides sumptous but delicate support throughout.

Hey James I actually started a thread that's dedicated to this wonderful work. I think may have checked it already: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,16812.0.html (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,16812.0.html)

Since you mentioned it here (and appropriatedly on the Berg thread), I have to agree with your analysis on this concerto. The work doesn't need any programme for it to cast its spell on you, but I think the hidden references throughout the work only add more mystery and drama.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 17, 2010, 08:17:52 AM
I can't believe Berg only has five pages! He was a major composer of the 20th Century! This shows me that not many people here are that adventurous with their listening, which is disappointing. Classical music is definitely in decline these days.  :(

Anyway, rant over, can anybody suggest any books on Alban Berg that would be informative? Please only suggest books that you've read.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: springrite on November 17, 2010, 08:26:10 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 17, 2010, 08:17:52 AM
I can't believe Berg only has five pages! He was a major composer of the 20th Century! This shows me that not many people here are that adventurous with their listening, which is disappointing. Classical music is definitely in decline these days.  :(

Anyway, rant over, can anybody suggest any books on Alban Berg that would be informative? Please only suggest books that you've read.

Like you, Berg is easily my favorite among the Second Vienese School (and beyond). I still remember being mesmerized by Wozzeck (6 LIVE performances in a row) and Lulu (MET broadcast, which I listened to on the radio as I worked in a hotel cleaning rooms. I switched on the radio as soon as I entered each room!).  My favorite work is probably the Chamber concerto, followed closely by the two operas and the VC.

As for books, I have this one, and I think it is good, though I have not read any other books on the composer, so I can't say if it is the best book on Berg). But this bit on the back page of the book may give you an idea:

In this book, published with the approval of Berg's widow, Dr. Carner follows his biography with a close analysis of Berg's works one by one. Dr Carner makes much of the long and fruitful relationships in Vienna and Berlin between Berg and his teacher Arnold Schonberg (1874-1951), adding greatly to our knowledge by extensive quotation from the largely unpublished Berg-Schonberg correspondence.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: bhodges on November 17, 2010, 08:33:02 AM
Quote from: springrite on November 17, 2010, 08:26:10 AM
I still remember being mesmerized by Wozzeck (6 LIVE performances in a row) and Lulu (MET broadcast, which I listened to on the radio as I worked in a hotel cleaning rooms. I switched on the radio as soon as I entered each room!)

Too wonderful for words... ;D

--Bruce
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: springrite on November 17, 2010, 08:34:24 AM
Quote from: bhodges on November 17, 2010, 08:33:02 AM
Too wonderful for words... ;D

--Bruce

I played it so loud and it also worked wonders in getting people in the other rooms to check out in time!
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: bhodges on November 17, 2010, 08:35:35 AM
Quote from: springrite on November 17, 2010, 08:34:24 AM
I played it so loud and it also worked wonders in getting people in the other rooms to check out in time!

Now I'm really laughing...would have loved to observe all of this.  ;D

--Bruce
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 17, 2010, 08:57:08 AM
Quote from: springrite on November 17, 2010, 08:26:10 AM
Like you, Berg is easily my favorite among the Second Vienese School (and beyond). I still remember being mesmerized by Wozzeck (6 LIVE performances in a row) and Lulu (MET broadcast, which I listened to on the radio as I worked in a hotel cleaning rooms. I switched on the radio as soon as I entered each room!).  My favorite work is probably the Chamber concerto, followed closely by the two operas and the VC.

As for books, I have this one, and I think it is good, though I have not read any other books on the composer, so I can't say if it is the best book on Berg). But this bit on the back page of the book may give you an idea:

In this book, published with the approval of Berg's widow, Dr. Carner follows his biography with a close analysis of Berg's works one by one. Dr Carner makes much of the long and fruitful relationships in Vienna and Berlin between Berg and his teacher Arnold Schonberg (1874-1951), adding greatly to our knowledge by extensive quotation from the largely unpublished Berg-Schonberg correspondence.

Thanks for the recommendation. I have not seen this book, so I'll have to check it out. The first work by Berg I heard was his Violin Concerto followed very shortly by Lulu Suite. From here, my mind was blown completely. I then fell in love with his song cycles. I have only listened to Wozzeck once, I really need to revisit it soon. Lately, I've been trying to unwrap the mysteries of Three Pieces For Orchestra which is so complex.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on June 07, 2011, 06:38:14 PM
Time to revive...

One of the most interesting aspects of Berg's music is how really accessible it is, though I do believe some still struggle with the music on this forum. Berg for me represented the Expressionist side of music. Everything is laid-out in front of you in such a thought provoking way. It's almost as if the listener wonders why they're being tormented with one anguished note after another. But this is Berg's style, which lies all in the expression and phrasing of the musical line. It follows a very ordered sequence of events. You can tell where the outbursts are. You can hear how the climax is going to be dissolved as if it evaporates into thin air. It's predictable, but at the same time it's not. It's music you think you've somewhere before, but you've never actually heard a note of it. It's as if you're staring in the mirror and the reflection of yourself is slightly distorted. The music is in a completely different realm of reality, but the emotional pull of the music continues to guide you back only to be taken into this alternate universe yet again.

Did any of that make any sense to anybody?
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: abidoful on June 08, 2011, 06:19:08 AM
Quote from: James on June 08, 2011, 02:59:53 AM
PIANO SONATA
There are traces of Liszt, and unsurprisingly, of Schoenberg
I've never found any traces of Liszt apart from the most superficial similarities as key and one movement. If those aren't the things you meant, what are they?
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 08, 2011, 05:15:55 PM
Great thread, Berg is phenomenal, I was interested in Wozzeck after seeing Werner Herzog's film of the same subject. I was blown away, the music, melodies and singing sounded so free in it's presentation. It instantly became one of favorite operas, top 5 for sure if you're into lists  ;D

I saw a performance by the Dallas Opera maybe 7-8 years ago, sort of a futuristic, biker-gang setting, very interesting, loved seeing some of the naive audience leaving midway.

I love the Lyric Suite performed by a string quartet, only have heard the Kronos Quartet with Upshaw recording, but such incredibly lovely music. 

[asin]B0000AN4FJ[/asin]

Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Brahmsian on June 08, 2011, 05:19:36 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 08, 2011, 05:15:55 PM
Great thread, Berg is phenomenal, I was interested in Wozzeck after seeing Werner Herzog's film of the same subject. I was blown away, the music, melodies and singing sounded so free in it's presentation. It instantly became one of favorite operas, top 5 for sure if you're into lists  ;D

I saw a performance by the Dallas Opera maybe 7-8 years ago, sort of a futuristic, biker-gang setting, very interesting, loved seeing some of the naive audience leaving midway.

I love the Lyric Suite performed by a string quartet, only have heard the Kronos Quartet with Upshaw recording, but such incredibly lovely music. 

[asin]B0000AN4FJ[/asin]

I love this one too.  I've got to put it on the wish list.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 08, 2011, 05:22:35 PM
Quote from: JetsNut on June 08, 2011, 05:19:36 PM
I love this one too.  I've got to put it on the wish list.

If you don't mind MP3s I know amazon has this for under $6.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on June 09, 2011, 07:44:28 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 08, 2011, 05:15:55 PMloved seeing some of the naive audience leaving midway.

???

You would think that in today's time Berg's music would be more accessible to people especially considering what happened after Berg, but it's always amusing to hear about people leaving early in a performance. What did they expect? This also tells me that the people that were leaving never had even heard of Berg or haven't done any research on his music. Naive and narrow-minded.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 14, 2011, 06:34:04 AM
A little snippet from Berlin Phil. video concerts...this one was just uploaded today of Abbado/Lulu Suite...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ISSTjTveQo

Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: karlhenning on June 14, 2011, 06:41:06 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 09, 2011, 07:44:28 AM
You would think that in today's time Berg's music would be more accessible to people especially considering what happened after Berg, but it's always amusing to hear about people leaving early in a performance. What did they expect? This also tells me that the people that were leaving never had even heard of Berg or haven't done any research on his music. Naive and narrow-minded.

Well, if someone doesn't care for Berg, that of itself I don't think naïve or narrow-minded.

But the drama-queen act of shaking the concert hall's dust from your feet . . . bad tone, childish.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: abidoful on June 16, 2011, 04:02:50 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 14, 2011, 06:41:06 AM
Well, if someone doesn't care for Berg, that of itself I don't think naïve or narrow-minded.

But the drama-queen act of shaking the concert hall's dust from your feet . . . bad tone, childish.

Good to show what you think IMO---perhaps those people left in a moral dismay.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 30, 2011, 12:18:35 PM
Quote from: abidoful on June 16, 2011, 04:02:50 AM
Good to show what you think IMO---perhaps those people left in a moral dismay.

But there's a fine line between someone showing a distaste for something and disrespecting the performers on stage because of that distaste. People need to educate themselves BEFORE they go to a concert or, in many cases, there are pre-concert lectures that discuss the works before they're performed which gives the audience a chance to learn about the music. Again, this is BEFORE the concert. If somebody attends an all-Second Viennese School concert, then, more chances than not, people know what to expect. Anyway, I just think it's rude and inconsiderate for an audience member to do this.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 30, 2011, 03:11:15 PM
I read somewhere that the premiere of Berg's Altenberg-Lieder caused a riot. I guess this music back in the early 20th Century was as radical as Stravinsky's Rite of Spring perhaps even more so. What's so fascinating is this music today is still challenging audiences. Let me ask this question: when in the last 30 years has a piece of classical music evoke such an outrage that a riot broke out at a premiere?
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: karlhenning on August 31, 2011, 04:43:26 AM
Well, it would have taken less for Berg to shock the Viennese of his day, than for Stravinsky to shock Parisians.  Then, too, there's the question of whether it was Stravinsky's music, or the shenanigans on stage, which enraged the audience at the première of Le sacre.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: AllegroVivace on August 31, 2011, 02:22:12 PM
Quote from: springrite on November 17, 2010, 08:26:10 AM
I still remember being mesmerized by Wozzeck (6 LIVE performances in a row) and Lulu (MET broadcast, which I listened to on the radio as I worked in a hotel cleaning rooms. I switched on the radio as soon as I entered each room!).

I will never forget I read this.  This is a beautiful account of the grandeur and dignity of human spirit.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Guido on August 31, 2011, 03:24:11 PM
The Altenberg are really hard going I find. Amongst the least sensuous and beautiful of Berg's works. Certainly nothing like Lulu or Wozzeck... Presumably people rate them otherwise they wouldn't be famous? Are they considered to be important in his oeuvre?
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 31, 2011, 06:50:39 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 31, 2011, 04:43:26 AM
Well, it would have taken less for Berg to shock the Viennese of his day, than for Stravinsky to shock Parisians.  Then, too, there's the question of whether it was Stravinsky's music, or the shenanigans on stage, which enraged the audience at the première of Le sacre.

Rumor has it Camille Saint-Saens stood up during the opening bassoon solo and exclaimed "That is not a bassoon, that is a buffoon!"
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 31, 2011, 06:52:13 PM
Quote from: Guido on August 31, 2011, 03:24:11 PM
The Altenberg are really hard going I find. Amongst the least sensuous and beautiful of Berg's works. Certainly nothing like Lulu or Wozzeck... Presumably people rate them otherwise they wouldn't be famous? Are they considered to be important in his oeuvre?

I like the Altenberg-Lieder, but then again I'm a sucker for anything Berg wrote for voice and orchestra (i. e. Der Wein, Seven Early Songs, Lulu Suite[/i]).
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Luke on September 01, 2011, 03:27:03 AM
Quote from: Guido on August 31, 2011, 03:24:11 PM
The Altenberg are really hard going I find. Amongst the least sensuous and beautiful of Berg's works. Certainly nothing like Lulu or Wozzeck... Presumably people rate them otherwise they wouldn't be famous? Are they considered to be important in his oeuvre?

Berg's oeuvre is so small and consistent, and each piece is so individual and fully realised that I've always felt that every work is considered important, because of the new things it brings to the table if nothing else. Certainly I 'grew up thinking' that the Altenberg Lieder were important; put another way, when I was taught about them in the context of Berg's complete oeuvre an inordinate amount of time was spent upon them in proportion to their length. Personally I don't find them in the least lacking in sensuality and beauty; to me they are among Berg's most refined and perfect works, a large orchestra engaged in feats of delicate complexity of the most spider-web strong construction, all in the service of these brief postcard settings

I suppose one of the issues I think they have in terms of 'beauty' is that they are so evanescent and brief that we don't have time to get used to each beautiful idea and texture before it is gone for ever; it is gone before we know it and are 'inside' it. There is a frustration in that which is part of the charm, as it is in Webern etc., but I guess it acts as an inhibiting factor too.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 01, 2011, 06:30:25 AM
Quote from: Guido on August 31, 2011, 03:24:11 PM
The Altenberg are really hard going I find. Amongst the least sensuous and beautiful of Berg's works. Certainly nothing like Lulu or Wozzeck... Presumably people rate them otherwise they wouldn't be famous? Are they considered to be important in his oeuvre?

The texts by Altenberg are beautiful, making Berg's music all the more enthralling.



What is everyone's favorite recording of Wozzeck? I'm currently favoring Ingo Metzmacher/Hamburg State Philharmonic Orchestra with Boje Skovhus in the title roll. It's a live performance.

[asin]B00001SVLT[/asin]
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: bhodges on September 01, 2011, 07:10:59 AM
I only have two Wozzeck recordings ( :'(), and the Metzmacher is the one I play most often; I love what he does with the orchestral interludes, and the cast is very good. If Skovhus isn't the most...hm..."angst-ridden" title character, he still sings the role very well, and Denoke is an excellent Marie.

The other one is with Walter Berry (below) and Boulez. I'm not quite so sold on Berry's voice - he's good, just not to my taste - and the recording itself is a bit on the dry side, but I do like Boulez's no-nonsense approach to the score.

But the Metzmacher is excellent, and I love the live recording. The production - all in formal dress, apparently - looks fascinating, like an elegant dinner party gone awry.

[asin]B0000024XN[/asin]

--Bruce
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 01, 2011, 07:29:34 AM
Quote from: Brewski on September 01, 2011, 07:10:59 AM
I only have two Wozzeck recordings ( :'(), and the Metzmacher is the one I play most often; I love what he does with the orchestral interludes, and the cast is very good. If Skovhus isn't the most...hm..."angst-ridden" title character, he still sings the role very well, and Denoke is an excellent Marie.

But the Metzmacher is excellent, and I love the live recording. The production - all in formal dress, apparently - looks fascinating, like an elegant dinner party gone awry.

--Bruce


It's been a while since I've read the booklet, but I think I remember the staging to very minimalist, no props, that might be one reason why the performance is so thrilling.
(http://www.hamburgische-staatsoper.de/000___alte_website/2_staatsoper/img/img_geschichte_1998.jpg)
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Guido on September 01, 2011, 02:17:59 PM
Quote from: Luke on September 01, 2011, 03:27:03 AM
Berg's oeuvre is so small and consistent, and each piece is so individual and fully realised that I've always felt that every work is considered important, because of the new things it brings to the table if nothing else. Certainly I 'grew up thinking' that the Altenberg Lieder were important; put another way, when I was taught about them in the context of Berg's complete oeuvre an inordinate amount of time was spent upon them in proportion to their length. Personally I don't find them in the least lacking in sensuality and beauty; to me they are among Berg's most refined and perfect works, a large orchestra engaged in feats of delicate complexity of the most spider-web strong construction, all in the service of these brief postcard settings

I suppose one of the issues I think they have in terms of 'beauty' is that they are so evanescent and brief that we don't have time to get used to each beautiful idea and texture before it is gone for ever; it is gone before we know it and are 'inside' it. There is a frustration in that which is part of the charm, as it is in Webern etc., but I guess it acts as an inhibiting factor too.

Thanks for this. I have to say, I haven't listened all that many times for the reasons I mentioned - they're nothing like as alluring to me as the voice/orch Berg that I have grown accustomed to from Marie's music in Wozzeck (some strange admixture of Strauss and Ives), Lulu, and of course the ravishing 7 early songs (Strauss made poetic, Korngold made nutritious). Will persevere though!
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: mjwal on September 03, 2011, 02:54:47 AM
>>The Altenberg are really hard going I find. Amongst the least sensuous and beautiful of Berg's works. Certainly nothing like Lulu or Wozzeck... Presumably people rate them otherwise they wouldn't be famous? Are they considered to be important in his oeuvre?<<
The Altenberg Lieder have always been among my most loved vocal works, Guido. They prefigure the Lulu sound-feeling but are complete in themselves. I still love the Boulez/BBCSO/Lukomska recording most of those I have - the Abbado/Price version (better sounding on LP than CD) is perfectly performed but lacking in that peculiar Bergian poignancy to my ears, especially in the voice, pure but not so expressive of the meaning of the words. The Gielen/Orsanic recording is also very good and a snip if you can find it.
Somewhere in the Craft/Stravinsky dialogues Igor raves about these, just as he does about Dichterliebe, which you wouldn't automatically expect.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on September 03, 2011, 04:24:04 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 31, 2011, 06:50:39 PM
Rumor has it Camille Saint-Saens stood up during the opening bassoon solo and exclaimed "That is not a bassoon, that is a buffoon!"

Did he say it in french or in english?
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Leo K. on January 05, 2012, 06:37:38 AM
Quote from: toucan on January 04, 2012, 01:19:20 PM
Claudio Abbado on Harmonia Mundi: can you believe that? With Isabelle Faust! Due next month: if it were a book, it'd be called a publishing event! Berg and Beethoven is what they are giving us. Last Abbado recording of the Berg Concerto was with Isaac Stern; he also did the Beethoven Concerto with Stern, in Paris: but that was never released on CD; not even on LP. Ain't that a shame (when in Paris do as the Texans do, in case you were wondering about the "ain't")?  Be it as it may, well worth the long line in front of your neighborhood CD store, if your neighborhood still has a CD store, this new Berg/Beethoven release, more certainly so than Michael Jordan sneakers.

(http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m465/Phil1_05/BergAbbadoFaust.png)(http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m465/Phil1_05/BergAbbadoFaust2.png)

Wow! Thanks for the heads up! I can't wait!


Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 15, 2012, 01:04:28 PM
I listened to Wozzeck some days ago, with Carlos Kleiber & Bavarian State Orchestra.....what a thrilling work it was, very beautiful, it quite impressed me; it was the first time that I listened to an opera composed in atonal style!
All the opera is pervaded by a dramatic atmosphere the atonality amplifies a lot, in a very expressive way, with the use of strong dissonances and sudden timbric variations, absolutely powerfully emotional and brilliant. I really liked also Berg's use of leitmotifs to introduce the characters in the scene and to express their feelings and their thought processes.
Kleiber's performance was outstanding, wonderfully played by the orchestra; I had no doubt about it though, Kleiber and Wozzeck is a winning combination. ;D
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 15, 2012, 01:38:27 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on April 15, 2012, 01:04:28 PM
I listened to Wozzeck some days ago, with Carlos Kleiber & Bavarian State Orchestra.....what a thrilling work it was, very beautiful, it quite impressed me; it was the first time that I listened to an opera composed in atonal style!
All the opera is pervaded by a dramatic atmosphere the atonality amplifies a lot, in a very expressive way, with the use of strong dissonances and sudden timbric variations, absolutely powerfully emotional and brilliant. I really liked also Berg's use of leitmotifs to introduce the characters in the scene and to express their feelings and their thought processes.
Kleiber's performance was outstanding, wonderfully played by the orchestra; I had no doubt about it though, Kleiber and Wozzeck is a winning combination. ;D

A great piece, no doubt. Wonderful to hear your reaction.

I attended The Dallas Opera's performance of Wozzeck, must have been 10 years ago maybe less, the production created a semi-futuristic surreal/biker gang setting. In Act 1 when Wozzeck visits the Doctor, the tenor portraying the title character, bent over a table, and the Doctor blatantly put on rubber gloves and preceded to "check" Wozzeck. The tenor even changed his tone and made some body movements both suggesting the Doctor's actions, this prompted a good hand-full of the audience members to walk out, some had already walked out when they realized the tonal or, atonal structure of the composition, and others left about halfway. It was quite entertaining to watch those leaving. Out of the dozen or so Operas I've attended, it certainly was one of the best.

I am not familiar with the Kleiber recording, I may have to change that.  ;D
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 15, 2012, 02:35:55 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 15, 2012, 01:38:27 PM
A great piece, no doubt. Wonderful to hear your reaction.

I attended The Dallas Opera's performance of Wozzeck, must have been 10 years ago maybe less, the production created a semi-futuristic surreal/biker gang setting. In Act 1 when Wozzeck visits the Doctor, the tenor portraying the title character, bent over a table, and the Doctor blatantly put on rubber gloves and preceded to "check" Wozzeck. The tenor even changed his tone and made some body movements both suggesting the Doctor's actions, this prompted a good hand-full of the audience members to walk out, some had already walked out when they realized the tonal or, atonal structure of the composition, and others left about halfway. It was quite entertaining to watch those leaving. Out of the dozen or so Operas I've attended, it certainly was one of the best.

I am not familiar with the Kleiber recording, I may have to change that.  ;D

Thank you, Greg :)

Really, a semi-futuristic surreal/biker gang? What a curious setting; I agree about the freedom of interpretation, but I'm always a little suspicious about modern sceneries. Maybe I'm too influenced by Wagner's concepts. ;)
I can't believe that some people left the performance for those reasons....actors' movements, atonal structure....why buying the ticket then?!

Haha, Kleiber's version is definitely worth listening to, no doubt! Kleiber's name is tied tightly to this opera, we mustn't forget that Carlos' father, Erich, conducted the premiere of Wozzeck in 1925.


Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 15, 2012, 04:02:13 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on April 15, 2012, 02:35:55 PM
Thank you, Greg :)

Really, a semi-futuristic surreal/biker gang? What a curious setting; I agree about the freedom of interpretation, but I'm always a little suspicious about modern sceneries. Maybe I'm too influenced by Wagner's concepts. ;)
I can't believe that some people left the performance for those reasons....actors' movements, atonal structure....why buying the ticket then?!

Haha, Kleiber's version is definitely worth listening to, no doubt! Kleiber's name is tied tightly to this opera, we mustn't forget that Carlos' father, Erich, conducted the premiere of Wozzeck in 1925.

Thanks for the bit of history, never knew about that the Kleibers.  :)
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: mjwal on April 16, 2012, 02:00:54 AM
FYI, there is a recording by Erich Kleiber (I persist in finding him more interesting than his much-hyped son) of the 3 orchestral fragments from Wozzeck. Essential listening - from the horse's mouth, as it were, though recorded some time in the 50s.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on June 24, 2012, 09:18:51 PM
ATTENTION BERG FANS!!!

[asin]B007WB5DOI[/asin]

Contains Berg's Lulu Suite and Der Wein. Boulez with the Vienna Philharmonic. Need I say more? 8)
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 25, 2012, 02:32:09 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 24, 2012, 09:18:51 PM
ATTENTION BERG FANS!!!

[asin]B007WB5DOI[/asin]

Contains Berg's Lulu Suite and Der Wein. Boulez with the Vienna Philharmonic. Need I say more? 8)

Very cool, thanks, John!
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Lisztianwagner on June 25, 2012, 02:40:09 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 24, 2012, 09:18:51 PM
ATTENTION BERG FANS!!!

[asin]B007WB5DOI[/asin]

Contains Berg's Lulu Suite and Der Wein. Boulez with the Vienna Philharmonic. Need I say more? 8)

How brilliant! ;D
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on June 25, 2012, 10:39:28 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on June 25, 2012, 02:40:09 AM
How brilliant! ;D

Yes, I'll be buying this one, Ilaria. How could I resist?
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Karl Henning on December 18, 2012, 05:09:23 AM
Not that the HvK recording is at all bad, but I have to give Abbado the nod on the Op.6 pieces.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 18, 2012, 05:18:53 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 18, 2012, 05:09:23 AM
Not that the HvK recording is at all bad, but I have to give Abbado the nod on the Op.6 pieces.

Haven't heard HvK yet, but Abbado is very good. Karl, have you heard Levine/Met Orchestra's Berg disc on Sony? Wozzeck fragments with Fleming, Lulu Suite and Op.6 pieces. Still probably my favorite Berg orchestral disc.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Karl Henning on December 18, 2012, 05:26:35 AM
I've not heard it, Greg; but I know that Jimmy had a knack for that neck of the lit.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: springrite on December 18, 2012, 06:00:38 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 18, 2012, 05:09:23 AM
Not that the HvK recording is at all bad, but I have to give Abbado the nod on the Op.6 pieces.
You are too polite, Karl. It's been a month and a half since the campaign season was over and you still have some leftover effects of listening to too much politician talk.

The Abbado is amazing.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Karl Henning on December 18, 2012, 06:03:20 AM
Bring that hammer down, Paul!  Must be Kimi keeping you in fighting trim . . . .
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on December 18, 2012, 06:32:22 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 18, 2012, 05:18:53 AM
Haven't heard HvK yet, but Abbado is very good. Karl, have you heard Levine/Met Orchestra's Berg disc on Sony? Wozzeck fragments with Fleming, Lulu Suite and Op.6 pieces. Still probably my favorite Berg orchestral disc.

That's a great disc.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on December 18, 2012, 06:35:53 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 18, 2012, 05:09:23 AM
Not that the HvK recording is at all bad, but I have to give Abbado the nod on the Op.6 pieces.

Abbado's Berg is simply outstanding, Karl. Love those performances.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: springrite on December 18, 2012, 06:41:18 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 18, 2012, 06:03:20 AM
Bring that hammer down, Paul!  Must be Kimi keeping you in fighting trim . . . .

Once I had a HvK Haydn disc on and Kimi said "Daddy this is dreadful!" But when I changed to Fey's recording of Haydn she approved.

Kimi holds no punches!
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Karl Henning on December 18, 2012, 06:44:49 AM
She knows when HvK wants some slapping around!
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on December 18, 2012, 06:45:48 AM
Quote from: springrite on December 18, 2012, 06:41:18 AM
Once I had a HvK Haydn disc on and Kimi said "Daddy this is dreadful!" But when I changed to Fey's recording of Haydn she approved.

Kimi holds no punches!

Kimi knows good Haydn when she hears it! :D
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Lisztianwagner on December 18, 2012, 08:25:15 AM
I think Karajan's Berg is terrific, hauntingly thrilling; but the Abbado stands comparison superbly.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on December 18, 2012, 09:11:21 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on December 18, 2012, 08:25:15 AM
I think Karajan's Berg is terrific, hauntingly thrilling; but the Abbado stands comparison superbly.

For me, there is no comparison. Abbado clearly has Berg's idiom under his fingers while Karajan's performances seem unclear as to where he wants the music to go. Now, late-Romantic Schoenberg works, this is where Karajan shines IMHO.

Karl, as Greg suggested, you should definitely check out the Levine recording on Sony (w/ the MET Orchestra) of various Berg orchestral works. Three Pieces for Orchestra and Lulu-Suite are handled beautifully. The Wozzeck fragments are also great.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 04, 2013, 05:06:02 PM
I've yet to purchase Faust's VC recording, no real reason why not, and after seeing this I'm wondering why I haven't.
Check out this small morsel of goodness...

http://www.youtube.com/v/QJJ8JfvAEKY&list=UUtRkmSO4PrhJ4TzNOmFIwjw&index=27
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Leo K. on January 19, 2013, 07:13:10 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GGXD66YYL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

In the late concert aria Der Wein Otter and Abbado sound fresh and spirited, and they are very much able to capture the jazz inluences and lilt, and even if this is hardly my favorite Berg work I found the version here to be very appealing. The highlight of this disc, however (with apologies to von Otter who sings marvelously everywhere else) is Abbado's superb shaping and the Vienna Philharmonic's astounding, powerful and expressive playing of the Three Orchestral Pieces. This is many-layered, complex music of soul-searching profundity and smoldering fires; the March, for instance, displays a certain attack and rhythmic sharpness in this recording, but becomes more of a dark tone poem, chillingly depicting the staring Berg's Seven Early Songs paint with subdued colors and wisps of shadow from the twilight of Romanticism. Anne Sofie von Otter turns out to be - not surprisingly - pretty close to an ideal interpreter. As a lieder singer (rather than a dramatic voice) she finds the details and surprising shades of color and conveys a deep understanding of the texts, and Abbado is an admirable partner, careful to support the singer and the text rather than drawing attention to the sheen and lushness of the orchestra or to overwhelm the songs with orchestral opulence (as sometimes happens in these works). Tender, glittering poetry and a multitude of subtle colors rather than any kind of Wagnerian drama are what we get, and I cannot think of any better way of enjoying these imaginative, alluring works.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Leo K. on January 19, 2013, 07:48:36 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51x9loB2RfL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

(sadly out of print, but I have thoughts on it)

The Berg performances are nothing less than a miracle of conducting and orchestral culture--a sign of times gone by: a performance of manic, autocratic vision and ensemble that dares to step to the very edge of togetherness and then step a bit further. We, as hostages to our own infantile, cosmetic, MBA-driven times, will never hear the likes of it again. We don't deserve to. "How much you lack vision", the performance seems to say, "but then let me teach you." Released on LP back in 1974. Rumor has it the company demurred, so Karajan waived his fee just to make the thing happen. (The only pity is that the Schoenberg Pieces, Op. 15 weren't included.) The box then went on to sell far beyond anyone's expectations. Listen to Karajan's Verklarte Nacht, and you'll hear a sorcerer's long-line thinking and sense of preparation--or at least the thinking of someone who spent many a night in the opera pit, tending to drama and taking care that the climax in Act II did not pre-empt the Liebestod. After Verklarte Nacht I would point to Karajan's Pelleas und Melisande, Berg 3 Pieces, and Webern 6 Pieces as recorded performances that have never been matched. Abbado's recent Vienna discs of the Berg works (released by DG in Europe but not here) are more transparent and maybe more emotionally forthcoming. And Boulez's second reading of Op. 6 shouldn't be forgotten. But surely it's Karajan who stages the more cogent drama in Berg's Op. 6, willing the opening percussion crescendo, this Second Viennese set was something of a market risk even when DG released it on conductor, though not necessarily in the repertoire he recorded most frequently. But what phrygian gates opened up when Karajan trusted his players like this, not getting in their way and guiding them with a beat that could knowingly cloud over at moments, that threatened to be too secure! Even in the cataclysmic march in Berg's Op. 6, the listener is never conscious of bar-lines or an interpretive ego digesting events for us.

When I hear this conductor, I could write a novel. There's an embarrassment of riches in this box. The orchestral waters in preparation for Berg's first opera--sound like the touch of a master orchestrator. The "nonmetallic" hammer in III, a crib from Mahler's Sixth, sounds perfectly incisive--and a perfectly logical addition to the orchestra. I only wish Karajan's bassoons didn't sound like saxophones in their higher registers. Remember Herbert von Karajan? Perhaps it was inevitable that after his death his reputation would fall into something of an eclipse, but given the size of his discography the classical music world's shortness of memory is rather breathtaking. Make no mistake: he was a great but perfectly reasonable approach to Webern. Karajan's Pelleas is peerless in its tonal luxuriance, unerring sense of pace, and fearless, perfectly-placed climaxes (how those whooping Berlin horns announce Schoenberg's shameless rip-off from Death and Transfiguration 3 minutes into track 6!). Karajan found a lyricism in the works of the Second Viennese School that eluded other conductors. In Berg and Webern, he took too many liberties, but these sumptuous early Schoenberg scores suited him perfectly. into sound like some kind of nervous dream effortlessly, stealthily realized. Karajan makes Berg's scoring--the effort of a 29-year-old testing the waters, and his pieces never have sounded so decadently beautiful, nor the Webern so passionately intense, or the Schoenberg so, well, just plain listenable. The Berlin Philharmonic strings make their usual luscious sounds, but here the winds, brass, and even percussion rise to the occasion as well. And sonically these were always some of Karajan's best efforts.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on January 19, 2013, 07:53:40 AM
I certainly agree with you, Leo, about Abbado's Berg. He's an absolute master of the idiom. Interestingly enough I was just listening to Abbado's performance of Three Pieces for Orchestra last night. A great performance.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Leo K. on January 19, 2013, 08:04:10 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 19, 2013, 07:53:40 AM
I certainly agree with you, Leo, about Abbado's Berg. He's an absolute master of the idiom. Interestingly enough I was just listening to Abbado's performance of Three Pieces for Orchestra last night. A great performance.

As much as I love Wozzeck, and Berg's violin concerto, I think I like his Op.6 the best. I just love this work.

Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on January 19, 2013, 08:07:45 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 19, 2013, 08:04:10 AM
As much as I love Wozzeck, and Berg's violin concerto, I think I like his Op.6 the best. I just love this work.

Yeah, it's really outstanding. I do like Der Wein, Lulu-Suite, and Seven Early Songs in addition to those works you mentioned as well. I never could get into the Chamber Concerto.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Leo K. on January 19, 2013, 09:01:17 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 19, 2013, 08:07:45 AM
Yeah, it's really outstanding. I do like Der Wein, Lulu-Suite, and Seven Early Songs in addition to those works you mentioned as well. I never could get into the Chamber Concerto.

I forgot the Lulu-Suite, that was the work that began my Berg journey! Yeah, the Chamber Concerto is the one I've always listened to the least, it's been a couple of years now, I should return back. I can sense it's slowly, very slowly, growing on me. Not everyone can hit a home run and that's the Chamber Concerto for me, I think I like the concept more than the music.

Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on January 19, 2013, 09:03:27 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 19, 2013, 09:01:17 AMNot everyone can hit a home run and that's the Chamber Concerto for me, I think I like the concept more than the music.

Absolutely, Leo. Even in Berg's small oeuvre, there are going to be works that you don't enjoy.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 19, 2013, 09:33:38 AM
My introduction to Berg's Wozzeck was from watching Werner Herzog's filmed version of the original play by Georg Buchner. Although Berg's music is not featured in the film, my interest into the story lead me to the opera, and my initial thought was I just had to expeirence an opera based on this material. Needless to say I have fallen in love with Berg's music and the beautiful story of the lovable Wozzeck.

Also, is it safe to say that the Alban Berg String Quartet has the best recording available of the Alban Berg quartet for strings? Because you would think that they should possess that title, otherwise it's a complete fail.  ;D
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Brahmsian on January 19, 2013, 09:42:17 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 19, 2013, 09:33:38 AM
Also, is it safe to say that the Alban Berg String Quartet has the best recording available of the Alban Berg quartet for strings? Because you would think that they should possess that title, otherwise it's a complete fail.  ;D

;D  I guess, we could say the same thing about many other quartet ensembles (Shostakovich SQ, Beethoven SQ, Borodin SQ, Taneyev SQ, etc.)

One of my goals in 2013 is to listen to much, much more of Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern's music.  I do have the complete Webern set (on DG), just haven't listened to all of it yet.

I love the Kronos Qt. performance w/ Dawn Upshaw, of Berg's Lyric Suite.
Title: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 19, 2013, 10:10:35 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on January 19, 2013, 09:42:17 AM
;D  I guess, we could say the same thing about many other quartet ensembles (Shostakovich SQ, Beethoven SQ, Borodin SQ, Taneyev SQ, etc.)

One of my goals in 2013 is to listen to much, much more of Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern's music.  I do have the complete Webern set (on DG), just haven't listened to all of it yet.

I love the Kronos Qt. performance w/ Dawn Upshaw, of Berg's Lyric Suite.

The Webern DG set is awesome!
And that Kronos/Upshaw Lyric disc is a possible desert island for me.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Karl Henning on January 19, 2013, 03:30:17 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 19, 2013, 09:01:17 AM
. . . the Chamber Concerto is the one I've always listened to the least, it's been a couple of years now, I should return back. I can sense it's slowly, very slowly, growing on me. Not everyone can hit a home run and that's the Chamber Concerto for me . . . .

Well, I utterly deny the idea that the Kammerkonzert is anything less than "a home run." If anything, I think it an even better piece than the Violin Concerto (and I am not saying that the latter is anything less than excellent).

I have done a pendulum swing with the piece over the decades, so I understand being out of sympathy with it.  I first heard it broadcast over the radio (back at a time when you could still hear such a piece broadcast by a mainstream New York radio station), and I was agog over it.  Rather later, there was a time I had fallen rather out of sympathy with the whole Second Viennese School lot; it was just a time when my ears were after something else.

But long since now, that notorious trio and I have been reconciled . . . still, somehow, it was a while before I re-attained a state of genuine enthusiasm for the Kammerkonzert. It's probably gnarlier than most of the rest of Berg's work, so I see why a listener who is attuned to the luscious-creamy Berg finds this concerto a bit of a chew.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: The new erato on January 20, 2013, 05:19:18 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 19, 2013, 09:33:38 AM

Also, is it safe to say that the Alban Berg String Quartet has the best recording available of the Alban Berg quartet for strings? Because you would think that they should possess that title, otherwise it's a complete fail.  ;D
Yes, and Øyvind Berg, the conductor of the Norwegian Radio Orchestra, should be the best conductor for his orchestral works.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Leo K. on January 20, 2013, 05:59:01 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 19, 2013, 03:30:17 PM
Well, I utterly deny the idea that the Kammerkonzert is anything less than "a home run." If anything, I think it an even better piece than the Violin Concerto (and I am not saying that the latter is anything less than excellent).

I have done a pendulum swing with the piece over the decades, so I understand being out of sympathy with it.  I first heard it broadcast over the radio (back at a time when you could still hear such a piece broadcast by a mainstream New York radio station), and I was agog over it.  Rather later, there was a time I had fallen rather out of sympathy with the whole Second Viennese School lot; it was just a time when my ears were after something else.

But long since now, that notorious trio and I have been reconciled . . . still, somehow, it was a while before I re-attained a state of genuine enthusiasm for the Kammerkonzert. It's probably gnarlier than most of the rest of Berg's work, so I see why a listener who is attuned to the luscious-creamy Berg finds this concerto a bit of a chew.

Thanks for your thoughts Karl, much appreciated. You convinced me to return to this work in the near future. You hit the nail on the head regarding my preference for lucious-creamy Berg, that could be the factor. Perhaps it is the recording I am living with, this one? I think it is Isaac Stern who is the culprit:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/b7/ae/aa6ae03ae7a0bd143477f110.L._AA300_.jpg)


Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Karl Henning on January 20, 2013, 06:32:45 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 20, 2013, 05:59:01 AM
Thanks for your thoughts Karl, much appreciated. You convinced me to return to this work in the near future. You hit the nail on the head regarding my preference for lucious-creamy Berg, that could be the factor. Perhaps it is the recording I am living with, this one? I think it is Isaac Stern who is the culprit:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/b7/ae/aa6ae03ae7a0bd143477f110.L._AA300_.jpg)

Perhaps you're right, at that, Leo:  I only warmed to the Stern/P. Serkin/Abbado recording after 'reconnecting' with the Kammerkonzert via the Zukerman/Barenboim/Boulez account of the piece.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 20, 2013, 06:48:23 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 20, 2013, 06:32:45 AM
Perhaps you're right, at that, Leo:  I only warmed to the Stern/P. Serkin/Abbado recording after 'reconnecting' with the Kammerkonzert via the Zukerman/Barenboim/Boulez account of the piece.

Zukerman/Bareboim/Boulez for sure, it's the only one I really listen to.
But, (and in addition to) don't forget the wonderful arrangement of the second movement Adagio for violin, clarinet and piano by Alban himself. It's an even more chamber-esque chamber version.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Karl Henning on January 20, 2013, 06:55:05 AM
Hearing the piece live at Symphony Hall helped, as well.

And thanks for the reminder of that trio version of the middle movement, Greg!  I need to play that one sometime . . . .
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: not edward on January 20, 2013, 10:17:35 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 20, 2013, 06:48:23 AM
Zukerman/Bareboim/Boulez for sure, it's the only one I really listen to.
Oddly enough, this recording is one that never connected with me at all. I only became full convinced of the work through the more recent Tetzlaff/Uchida/Boulez.

As people have said, this is probably Berg's busiest and thorniest work, but one of the most appealing things about it to me is exactly that: so much is going on there and there's not just one fairly straightforward narrative present as in the violin concerto. (There's a sense in which I think of the Chamber Concerto in a parallel manner to Mahler 7: a performance can say so many different things about the work.)
Title: Re: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Karl Henning on January 20, 2013, 10:22:23 AM
Quote from: edward on January 20, 2013, 10:17:35 AM
Oddly enough, this recording is one that never connected with me at all. I only became full convinced of the work through the more recent Tetzlaff/Uchida/Boulez.

As people have said, this is probably Berg's busiest and thorniest work, but one of the most appealing things about it to me is exactly that: so much is going on there and there's not just one fairly straightforward narrative present as in the violin concerto. (There's a sense in which I think of the Chamber Concerto in a parallel manner to Mahler 7: a performance can say so many different things about the work.)

Cheers, Edward! And I've not forgotten Mennin....
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Octave on March 18, 2013, 01:57:27 AM
A minor discographical question.  The three last tracks from the Jessye Norman LP/CD of Berg's songs (with the red cover and Norman as a bride with mad eyes) are as follows:
24. Zwei Lieder/Schliesse mir die Augen beide (1907)     0:54
25. Zwei Lieder/Schliesse mir die Augen beide (1925)      1:31
26. Er klagt, dass der Frühling so kortz blüht from Jugendlieder (Excerpt)

I cannot tell if these three pieces are included in the BOULEZ CONDUCTS BERG box (pictured below).  I do know that the rest of the Norman disc is included (thanks Jens): the Jugendlieder [which seem to be grouped together earlier on that single LP, with the "Er klagt" excerpt set aside at the end of the disc], Altenberg lieder, Sieben frühe Lieder.
Thanks for any help!  I consulted Amazon US, Presto, and Arkiv (at which I couldn't find the Sony box at all, oddly).

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41tjnq%2BouLL.jpg)
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Octave on June 28, 2013, 10:40:46 PM
A question about a recording mentioned by Andre/Lilas in an old post referring to the Boulez disc of Berg's KAMMERKONZERT and Mozart's GRAN PARTITA:
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on April 11, 2009, 01:03:48 PM
In the Berg my favourite is still the Supraphon with Josef Suk & Co. I also have the DG in the big Berg box, but it's rather beefy and unsubtle in comparison.

The only Supraphon/Suk disc with Berg I can find is the VIOLIN CONCERTO, not the CHAMBER CONCERTO.  Have I missed something?  [EDIT: I'm looking for a CD edition, if one exists.]  This is the one disc I found:

[asin]B00006J47I[/asin]
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Parsifal on June 28, 2013, 11:24:47 PM
Quote from: Octave on March 18, 2013, 01:57:27 AM
A minor discographical question.  The three last tracks from the Jessye Norman LP/CD of Berg's songs (with the red cover and Norman as a bride with mad eyes) are as follows:
24. Zwei Lieder/Schliesse mir die Augen beide (1907)     0:54
25. Zwei Lieder/Schliesse mir die Augen beide (1925)      1:31
26. Er klagt, dass der Frühling so kortz blüht from Jugendlieder (Excerpt)

I cannot tell if these three pieces are included in the BOULEZ CONDUCTS BERG box (pictured below).  I do know that the rest of the Norman disc is included (thanks Jens): the Jugendlieder [which seem to be grouped together earlier on that single LP, with the "Er klagt" excerpt set aside at the end of the disc], Altenberg lieder, Sieben frühe Lieder.
Thanks for any help!  I consulted Amazon US, Presto, and Arkiv (at which I couldn't find the Sony box at all, oddly).

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41tjnq%2BouLL.jpg)

The tracks appear to be there.

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Pierre-Boulez-Edition-Sony-Alban-Berg/hnum/5915313

Don't dawdle, those sets our going rapidly out of print (although they may come back even cheaper, but no guarantees). 

Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Opus106 on June 29, 2013, 02:16:14 AM
Quote from: Octave on June 28, 2013, 10:40:46 PM
A question about a recording mentioned by Andre/Lilas in an old post referring to the Boulez disc of Berg's KAMMERKONZERT and Mozart's GRAN PARTITA:
The only Supraphon/Suk disc with Berg I can find is the VIOLIN CONCERTO, not the CHAMBER CONCERTO.  Have I missed something?

A Google search comes up with LPs available at the German Ebay, for instance, featuring the VC and CC.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Octave on June 29, 2013, 02:41:19 AM
Thanks; I should have specified compact disc editions.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: jlaurson on July 14, 2013, 07:51:36 AM



Dip Your Ears, No. 146 (Christine Schäfer Sings SchoenBerg)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5qNdvoe4EdM/T385kcE3K6I/AAAAAAAAB6E/nR1C_9bD0sI/s1600/DIP-YOUR-EARS.png)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/dip-your-ears-no-146-christine-schafer_13.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/dip-your-ears-no-146-christine-schafer_13.html)
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 22, 2013, 02:52:33 AM
Perfect 'good morning' music. The orchestral clarity of Berg's score is unmatched here, but perhaps not as dramatic as Metzmacher/EMI or Abbado/DG.
Has anyone heard the Lulu from Dohnanyi/Vienna/Silja on Decca?

[asin]B006IOOXJQ[/asin]
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on March 04, 2014, 08:04:41 PM
I just bought this 2-CD set tonight:

(http://www.chandos-records.com/hiresart/CHAN%205074.jpg)

Have any of you heard any of these performances? I like Venzago's conducting and Berg seemed like a good composer for him to conduct. The set also has Isabelle van Keulen performing the Violin Concerto. I admire her playing a lot. It also contains an orchestration by Theo Verbey of the Piano Sonata. I'm not always onboard with other composers orchestrating another composer's music, but I'm definitely interested in hearing what could be done with the work. Also, it's always nice to have another performance of the suites from Wozzeck and Lulu and not to mention Three Pieces for Orchestra.
Title: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Leo K. on March 05, 2014, 05:44:32 PM
I have not heard this recording, I look forward to your report!
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on March 05, 2014, 06:47:58 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on March 05, 2014, 05:44:32 PM
I have not heard this recording, I look forward to your report!

I look forward to giving a report, Leo. I take it you enjoy Berg's music? Any favorite works?
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: San Antone on March 05, 2014, 06:56:01 PM
Very good production of Lulu

https://www.youtube.com/v/QfdP4II20Cg
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on March 05, 2014, 07:06:47 PM
Cross-posted from the 'Purchases' thread -

Quote from: Mirror Image on March 05, 2014, 06:57:23 PM
Just bought:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0521399769.01.L.jpg)

I definitely wanted to read more about this concerto since it's one of my favorite pieces of music and this seemed to be the book to do just that.

Has anyone read this book? I'm really looking forward to reading about the genesis of this masterpiece and how Berg's own life ties into it all. I know the basics: he wrote the concerto in memory of Manon Gropius, Alma Mahler's daughter, and that it contains quotations from a Carinthian folk song Berg heard as a teenager and also a chorale from a Bach work. That's pretty much all I know about it, so I look forward to the education.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 05, 2014, 07:33:21 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 04, 2014, 08:04:41 PM
I just bought this 2-CD set tonight:

(http://www.chandos-records.com/hiresart/CHAN%205074.jpg)

Have any of you heard any of these performances? I like Venzago's conducting and Berg seemed like a good composer for him to conduct. The set also has Isabelle van Keulen performing the Violin Concerto. I admire her playing a lot. It also contains an orchestration by Theo Verbey of the Piano Sonata. I'm not always onboard with other composers orchestrating another composer's music, but I'm definitely interested in hearing what could be done with the work. Also, it's always nice to have another performance of the suites from Wozzeck and Lulu and not to mention Three Pieces for Orchestra.

Saw this set a few years ago, but didn't interest me until recently now that I've been exposed to Venzago's ongoing series of Bruckner. Although it's a mix of hit or miss, Venzago's presentation of his symphonies is unique. I wonder how these Berg works sound under Venzago.


Quote from: sanantonio on March 05, 2014, 06:56:01 PM
Very good production of Lulu

https://www.youtube.com/v/QfdP4II20Cg

I haven't seen this one yet, but have read some rave reviews on Schäfer. Also, Andrew Davis must love this opera, as I know he conducted it at Lyric Opera of Chicago in 08.
Thanks for posting, SA.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on March 05, 2014, 08:05:27 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 05, 2014, 07:33:21 PM
Saw this set a few years ago, but didn't interest me until recently now that I've been exposed to Venzago's ongoing series of Bruckner. Although it's a mix of hit or miss, Venzago's presentation of his symphonies is unique. I wonder how these Berg works sound under Venzago.

I'll definitely keep you posted once I've heard at least the Three Pieces for Orchestra and the Violin Concerto.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Leo K. on March 10, 2014, 11:38:15 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 05, 2014, 06:47:58 PM
I look forward to giving a report, Leo. I take it you enjoy Berg's music? Any favorite works?

Thanks John, yes, Berg is one of my main composers (his music sounds like its filled with secrets - that was my first impression and it stayed). My favorite works are the Three Pieces for Orchestra, Lulu Suite, Violin Concerto and his String Quartet and Lyric Suite.

Admittedly I've had a hard time enjoying Wozzeck, but I love Lulu. Recently, I found a broadcast recording (cond. Erich Klieber) conducting Wozzeck in English. I'm hoping that extra dimension of understanding the text helps me get into the work. I really want to.

Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on March 10, 2014, 12:21:09 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on March 10, 2014, 11:38:15 AM
Thanks John, yes, Berg is one of my main composers (his music sounds like its filled with secrets - that was my first impression and it stayed). My favorite works are the Three Pieces for Orchestra, Lulu Suite, Violin Concerto and his String Quartet and Lyric Suite.

Admittedly I've had a hard time enjoying Wozzeck, but I love Lulu. Recently, I found a broadcast recording (cond. Erich Klieber) conducting Wozzeck in English. I'm hoping that extra dimension of understanding the text helps me get into the work. I really want to.

Excellent to hear, Leo. Berg has been a favorite of mine, too, for many years now. In fact, he's in my top 10! :)
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Ken B on March 10, 2014, 01:04:06 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 10, 2014, 12:21:09 PM
In fact, he's in my top 10! :)
Who isn't John?

:D >:D
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on March 10, 2014, 06:00:25 PM
Quote from: Ken B on March 10, 2014, 01:04:06 PM
Who isn't John?

:D >:D

:P
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Octave on April 06, 2014, 10:39:08 PM
Some discussion of the LYRIC SUITE for string quartet (in the string quartet cycles poll) made me want to ask if anyone has heard this recording:

[asin]B002L7TM72[/asin]
Berg & Schubert by Quatuor Thymos w/Christoph Eschenbach and Salomé Haller (Calliope)

I've seen praise for recordings by the Kronos Quartet (w/Dawn Upshaw) and the Arditti Quartet (w/o the final movement w/soprano); but I've heard those already, and the coupling of the Thymos disc is of some interest. 
Title: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 07, 2014, 03:59:23 AM
Quote from: Octave on April 06, 2014, 10:39:08 PM
Some discussion of the LYRIC SUITE for string quartet (in the string quartet cycles poll) made me want to ask if anyone has heard this recording:

[asin]B002L7TM72[/asin]
Berg &amp; Schubert by Quatuor Thymos w/Christoph Eschenbach and Salomé Haller (Calliope)

I've seen praise for recordings by the Kronos Quartet (w/Dawn Upshaw) and the Arditti Quartet (w/o the final movement w/soprano); but I've heard those already, and the coupling of the Thymos disc is of some interest.

I haven't heard that one, Octave, although it's fairly inexpensive so I may join you in inquiring about it since it's a nice coupling. I do enjoy the Kronos with Upshaw a lot, also the Schoenberg Quartet collection performing Berg chamber on Brilliant, and Leipzig on MDG, both quality recordings.

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/07/ne6ada9u.jpg). (http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/07/3yra5a7e.jpg)
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 15, 2014, 05:06:34 PM
So, this is amazing...

[asin] B006P0FIHO[/asin]

Superbly dramatic performances accompanied by graphic, uncanny and bold stage direction. It's a real winner. For starters, I was shocked by the level of amazing that was Petibon. Not that I didn't think she was capable, but the Petibon I fell in love with was singing Rameau, Charpentier and Mozart. Grand set pieces, a lot of blood, skin, underwear and groping but all to accentuate this beautifully twisted tale. The opening of the 3rd act was a little jarring at first, but spending much of its time within the seats of the audience became successfully audacious.
I really want to get another Lulu on video and am seriously leaning towards the other production featuring Petibon at Liceu, Barcelona and Michael Boder conducting with Olivier Py's stage direction.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51W0pwoFe4L._SS250_.jpg)

Now knowing what Petibon can do with this mammoth of a role, and also being interested in a more ornate staging, and from the praise given by GMG's own Bruce, it looks like the Liceu will be next.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: 71 dB on August 31, 2014, 02:14:32 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 07, 2010, 11:36:17 AM
Triads (whether blatant or latent) are a component of the series.

According to Wikipedia (and I am guessing there are actual sources for these
; ) ::

The first row statement in the first number of the suite is:
F E C A G D Ab Db Eb Gb Bb Cb

Note that E - C - A spells an a minor triad, and that Eb Gb Bb spells an eb minor triad.  Note too that the second hexachord [Ab Db Eb Gb Bb Cb] is a transposition (at the interval of a tritone) of the first hexachord [F E C A G D] in retrograde.

Something which Berg does in the course of the piece is, he takes the constituent tetrachords of the original row, [F E C A] + [G D Ab Db] + [Eb Gb Bb Cb], and rotates the tetrachords. (The result is a different series, but the 'building blocks' of the two series are the same, so the two series are closely related.)  Thus:

[Eb Gb Bb Cb]  + [F E C A] + [G D Ab Db]

This derived set, we see, begins with a minor triad.  If we invert that derived set, the opening triad becomes major . . . so we can certainly have a number of the Lyric Suite opening with a G major triad, and yet the piece can still be completely serial.

Interesting. As a person struggling to understand even the basics of music theory I want to ask:

Would a first row statement beginning with notes G B D .... be somewhat "illegal"? Because opening with a G major triad would be very easy, wouldn't it?
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: EigenUser on August 31, 2014, 02:32:07 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on August 31, 2014, 02:14:32 AM
Interesting. As a person struggling to understand even the basics of music theory I want to ask:

Would a first row statement beginning with notes G B D .... be somewhat "illegal"? Because opening with a G major triad would be very easy, wouldn't it?
Maybe according to Schoenberg -- and almost certainly according to Boulez :D.

Seriously, though, not really. It's just a method that composers use -- how they use it is up to them. Berg was known for creating tone rows based off of triads and other tonal things. The tone row in his violin concerto is like this even more, and even contains a Bach reference in the last few notes! Still, it has no tonal center.

The most radical example of a tonal tone row is in Bartok's 2nd VC. One of the themes in the first movement contains a tone row that he designed to be as tonal as possible with a tonal center of "A".
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: 71 dB on August 31, 2014, 02:46:54 AM
Quote from: EigenUser on August 31, 2014, 02:32:07 AM
Maybe according to Schoenberg -- and almost certainly according to Boulez :D.

So they had certain rules for creating tone rows?

Quote from: EigenUser on August 31, 2014, 02:32:07 AMSeriously, though, not really. It's just a method that composers use -- how they use it is up to them. Berg was known for creating tone rows based off of triads and other tonal things. The tone row in his violin concerto is like this even more, and even contains a Bach reference in the last few notes! Still, it has no tonal center.

The most radical example of a tonal tone row is in Bartok's 2nd VC. One of the themes in the first movement contains a tone row that he designed to be as tonal as possible with a tonal center of "A".

I see.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: EigenUser on August 31, 2014, 03:25:08 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on August 31, 2014, 02:46:54 AM
So they had certain rules for creating tone rows?
I was just joking. ;)

The way I think of dodecaphonicism (is that a word? :D) is that there are no "rules" for creating a tone row other than not repeating a tone until all others have sounded. There is a lot that can be done there -- 12!! The first exclamation mark is to denote factorial. The second is because it is amazing*. In fact:

Quote
The tone row chosen as the basis of the piece is called the prime series (P). Untransposed, it is notated as P0. Given the twelve pitch classes of the chromatic scale, there are (12![18]) (factorial, i.e. 479,001,600[13]) tone rows, although 469,022,400 of these are merely transformations of other rows. There are 9,979,200 truly unique twelve-tone rows possible ("rows unrelated to any others through transposition, inversion, retrograde, and retrograde inversion.").[19]
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-tone_technique

Not to take the spotlight from Berg, but I will mention that I have written a very short twelve-tone piece for piano (which I later orchestrated). Since I love the pentatonic scale so much, my tone row consisted of the "white-key" pentatonic and the "black-key" pentatonic. It looks like this: (CDFGA)(C#D#F#G#A#). Since the only two notes not sounded by this method are 'B' and 'E', I included them at the end as an interchangeable dyad (the ordering of the two notes wasn't consistent  and was whatever I felt worked at the time). The tone row was then (CDFGA)(C#D#F#G#A#)[BE]. A fun exercise, but it wasn't a successful piece. I might re-do it later.

*(Should be read as (12 factorial)!, i.e. (12*11*10*...*2*1)!) :laugh:.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Ken B on August 31, 2014, 07:24:08 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on August 31, 2014, 02:46:54 AM
So they had certain rules for creating tone rows?

Yes, depending on who they refers to. Avoiding triads was one of them.
Don't think of it as defining a row, think of it as defining intervals. The goal was to get away from the standard intervals, to 'expand the harmonic resources'. So the idea was if you use a lot of traditional intervals they would, because of the way listeners have been conditioned by past music, attract undue attention and mitigate the effect.




Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Ken B on August 31, 2014, 07:28:55 AM
Nate
Quotea fun exercise [for the composer] but it wasn't a successful piece.

Forty years of music history in a nutshell.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: 71 dB on August 31, 2014, 07:47:34 AM
Quote from: EigenUser on August 31, 2014, 03:25:08 AM
I was just joking. ;)

The way I think of dodecaphonicism (is that a word? :D) is that there are no "rules" for creating a tone row other than not repeating a tone until all others have sounded. There is a lot that can be done there -- 12!! The first exclamation mark is to denote factorial. The second is because it is amazing*. In fact:
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-tone_technique

Not to take the spotlight from Berg, but I will mention that I have written a very short twelve-tone piece for piano (which I later orchestrated). Since I love the pentatonic scale so much, my tone row consisted of the "white-key" pentatonic and the "black-key" pentatonic. It looks like this: (CDFGA)(C#D#F#G#A#). Since the only two notes not sounded by this method are 'B' and 'E', I included them at the end as an interchangeable dyad (the ordering of the two notes wasn't consistent  and was whatever I felt worked at the time). The tone row was then (CDFGA)(C#D#F#G#A#)[BE]. A fun exercise, but it wasn't a successful piece. I might re-do it later.

*(Should be read as (12 factorial)!, i.e. (12*11*10*...*2*1)!) :laugh:.

I'm not sure I understand fully how tone rows affect the way music is composed. So if your tone row is (CDFGA)(C#D#F#G#A#)(BE) it means you "can't" use chords like C F G# because G# is too far from C and F in the tone row? I know tone rows tell which notes are available, but what about their order in the row? What does that mean? What doesn the subgroups in the parenthesis mean? Chord progression? But what really is chord progression?

No need to teach me math here ;)
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: EigenUser on August 31, 2014, 10:38:13 AM
Quote from: Ken B on August 31, 2014, 07:28:55 AM
Nate

Forty years of music history in a nutshell.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Quote from: 71 dB on August 31, 2014, 07:47:34 AM
I'm not sure I understand fully how tone rows affect the way music is composed. So if your tone row is (CDFGA)(C#D#F#G#A#)(BE) it means you "can't" use chords like C F G# because G# is too far from C and F in the tone row? I know tone rows tell which notes are available, but what about their order in the row? What does that mean? What doesn the subgroups in the parenthesis mean? Chord progression? But what really is chord progression?

No need to teach me math here ;)
My post ended up being about my piece, so I am moving it to my thread:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,23309.msg826813.html#msg826813
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: petrarch on August 31, 2014, 01:39:57 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on August 31, 2014, 07:47:34 AM
I'm not sure I understand fully how tone rows affect the way music is composed.

They provide base material, not unlike a motive or a rhythmic figure. Some composers have experimented with very strict rules for the use of rows, even generating entire rows from the same 3-note cell or extending the principle to other aspects of notes beyond pitch (duration, dynamics, instrument). On this, it is worth noting that most of them refused to relinquish the freedom to bend the rules where they felt was aesthetically necessary.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: amw on August 31, 2014, 02:09:37 PM
Quote from: EigenUser on August 31, 2014, 03:25:08 AMThere is a lot that can be done there -- 12!! The first exclamation mark is to denote factorial. The second is because it is amazing*.

I've always wondered if there are any quarter-tone serialist compositions. Or 31-limit just intonation. ...hmm.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: EigenUser on August 31, 2014, 02:36:04 PM
Quote from: amw on August 31, 2014, 02:09:37 PM
I've always wondered if there are any quarter-tone serialist compositions. Or 31-limit just intonation. ...hmm.
Haha, I've actually thought of that, too. I'm sure it has been done before.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: bhodges on September 16, 2014, 09:50:37 AM
Interesting trailer for new Lulu DVD starring Barbara Hannigan. Not sure about the production - hard to judge from what's shown - but she sounds terrific:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xalf_HMB2U

--Bruce
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: ritter on September 16, 2014, 10:06:34 AM
Quote from: Brewski on September 16, 2014, 09:50:37 AM
Interesting trailer for new Lulu DVD starring Barbara Hannigan. Not sure about the production - hard to judge from what's shown - but she sounds terrific:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xalf_HMB2U

--Bruce
Thanks for the link, Brewski!...Hannigan must be superb in the rôle, which I would think should fit her like a glove...

About the production: I haven't seen it, but I did experience a production by Warlikowski here in Madrid of Szymanowsky's King Roger; it had some isolated interesting moments, but quickly degenerated into something bizarre and downright ridiculous. As for his Lulu, friends of mine that saw it in Brussels mentioned that it was apparently inspired, of all things, on the film Black Swan by Aronofsky  ???
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: bhodges on September 16, 2014, 10:15:59 AM
Quote from: ritter on September 16, 2014, 10:06:34 AM
Thanks for the link, Brewski!...Hannigan must be superb in the rôle, which I would think should fit her like a glove...

About the production: I haven't seen it, but I did experience a production by Warlikowski here in Madrid of Szymanowsky's King Roger; it had some isolated interesting moments, but quickly degenerated into something bizarre and downright ridiculous. As for his Lulu, friends of mine that saw it in Brussels mentioned that it was apparently inspired, of all things, on the film Black Swan by Aronofsky  ???

Hm...thanks...(about the production)...and well...I'm hoping for the best.  :-\ 

But totally agree, there's little doubt about Hannigan - from this clip, she sounds superb. To my ears (and again, just based on this clip, and having seen her here in Ligeti and Grisey), she might end up being one of the best Lulu's around.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Drasko on September 16, 2014, 12:59:48 PM
Quote from: Brewski on September 16, 2014, 09:50:37 AM
Interesting trailer for new Lulu DVD starring Barbara Hannigan. Not sure about the production - hard to judge from what's shown - but she sounds terrific:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xalf_HMB2U

--Bruce

It does seem like very busy production, difficult to tell from trailer whether it works or not.

Nigel seemed undecided:
http://npw-opera-concerts.blogspot.com/2012/10/berg-lulu.html
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: jlaurson on September 22, 2015, 11:08:03 AM
Fresh from Forbes:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GS9pLMtbk04/VIB7VKbHqeI/AAAAAAAAHvs/QnxWx_SUGxc/s1600/Forbes_SOUND_ADVICE_laurson_2_600.jpg)

SEP 23, 2015
"Wozzeck" Opens Zurich Opera Season
With Uncommon, Resounding Success


...Had I gone to Zurich to see Falstaff (the opera next up on their program) I
would probably have experienced that disappointment. The kind of fluffy high
camp of which I got a glimpse at the dress rehearsal – even when it has Bryn
Terfel as the central character – just isn't my thing. But then again, neither is
Falstaff, really. Alban Berg's Wozzeck meanwhile is rather my thing. Easy,
perhaps, since it's one of the truly great dramatic operas written... so
embarrassingly good, it's hard to make a muck of it. Dense, gripping, and
succinct, Georg Büchner's 1837 drama conveys the nuanced struggle of its
characters across nearly two centuries with ease. As adapted by Berg in 1922
– right between Büchner and us on a timeline – it even allows for a little time-
travel by entering that time just before the outbreak of wide-spread material
prosperity and the ensuing runaway individualism...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/09/22/wozzeck-opens-zurich-opera-season-with-uncommon-resounding-success/
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2015/09/Zurich_Opera_Wozzeck_Gerhaher_Homoki_sf_w_cMonika-Rittershaus_jens-f-laurson.jpg) (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/09/22/wozzeck-opens-zurich-opera-season-with-uncommon-resounding-success/)
Wozzeck, Christian Gerhaher
Picture courtesy Zurich Opera, © Monika Rittershaus


Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: North Star on September 27, 2015, 09:40:49 AM
Interesting information about Alban Berg, Helene Berg, Hanna Fuchs-Robettin, Lulu, The Lyric Suite and the Violin Concerto

http://dickstrawser.blogspot.fi/2010/05/alban-bergs-lulu-up-close-but-not-too.html
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Leo K. on October 01, 2015, 05:57:35 AM
Quote from: North Star on September 27, 2015, 09:40:49 AM
Interesting information about Alban Berg, Helene Berg, Hanna Fuchs-Robettin, Lulu, The Lyric Suite and the Violin Concerto

http://dickstrawser.blogspot.fi/2010/05/alban-bergs-lulu-up-close-but-not-too.html

Thank you North Star!
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Leo K. on October 01, 2015, 06:08:51 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 20, 2013, 06:32:45 AM
Perhaps you're right, at that, Leo:  I only warmed to the Stern/P. Serkin/Abbado recording after 'reconnecting' with the Kammerkonzert via the Zukerman/Barenboim/Boulez account of the piece.

Karl, you are right regarding the Chamber Concerto, I needed to hear a different performance and listened to the Boulez/Tetlaff/Uchida account on Decca. It brought another view of the work and wow it is endlessly fascinating. I even hear connections to Berg's Three Pieces for Orchestra here and there!
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 25, 2015, 12:26:47 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on October 01, 2015, 06:08:51 AM
Karl, you are right regarding the Chamber Concerto, I needed to hear a different performance and listened to the Boulez/Tetlaff/Uchida account on Decca. It brought another view of the work and wow it is endlessly fascinating. I even hear connections to Berg's Three Pieces for Orchestra here and there!

Leo, come back! I struggle a bit with the Chamber Concerto. I've heard it many time before of course, but perhaps I'm listening to the wrong performances? I have not heard the Boulez/Tetzlaff/Uchida performance, so I'll keep my eyes out for that recording (if I can get it for a decent price).
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 25, 2015, 12:40:14 PM
Featured work of the week:

Lyric Suite

(http://p2.storage.canalblog.com/29/68/347638/46283612.jpg)

Berg's Lyric Suite abounds in secret messages. In purely musical terms, Berg here for the first time employs Schoenberg's 12-tone system, basing some of the third and fifth movements on rows using all 12 notes of the chromatic scale. (And in one row, Berg proudly told Schoenberg, he used not only all available notes, but all available intervals.) Also, the fourth movement carries a quotation from the Lyric Symphony of Zemlinsky, to whom the suite is dedicated. In more personal terms, the music documents the course of Berg's extramarital affair with Hanna Fuchs-Robettin. Not only do the movement titles suggest an all-too-familiar sequence (from jovial through amorous and ecstatic to gloomy and sorrowful), but Berg incorporates his and Fuchs-Robettin's initials into the melodies and ties the metronome markings to numerological associations with their names. The sixth movement's quotation of Wagner's Tristan und Isolde is a clear reference to illicit love.

The first movement, though freely atonal, lives up to its designation of Allegretto gioviale; it's a short, perky piece. Things become quieter and more intimate with the sensuous Andante amoroso, although the mood is still sometimes rather capricious, despite an elegiac interlude at its center. Intensity builds with the Allegro misterioso, which opens with nocturnal insect music, liberally employing pizzicato and other effects. This is, effectively, the work's scherzo movement, and at its center is a Trio estatico -- still keeping a fairly quick tempo, but now using mostly conventional bowing for longer-lined phrases. The scherzo music reappears, running in reverse to the movement's end.

The fourth movement, Adagio appassionato, forms the quartet's emotional center, with something tense and foreboding about much of the music's passion. A thrashing, dissonant climax gives way to a long passage of relative, but not quite settled, repose. The ensuing Presto delirando-Tenebroso alternates frantic music with quiet, dark, tense passages. The concluding Largo desolato maintains these moods at a much slower tempo, the music gradually dying away.

[Article taken from All Music Guide]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What does everyone think of this work? Any favorite performances? For me, it's absolutely mesmerizing. As I mentioned in another thread, it doesn't matter what the arrangement of the work actually is, I love them all just the same. Powerful music.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Leo K. on November 08, 2015, 04:44:31 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 25, 2015, 12:40:14 PM
Featured work of the week:

Lyric Suite

(https://accademiavinciana.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/egon20ok.jpg)

Berg's Lyric Suite abounds in secret messages. In purely musical terms, Berg here for the first time employs Schoenberg's 12-tone system, basing some of the third and fifth movements on rows using all 12 notes of the chromatic scale. (And in one row, Berg proudly told Schoenberg, he used not only all available notes, but all available intervals.) Also, the fourth movement carries a quotation from the Lyric Symphony of Zemlinsky, to whom the suite is dedicated. In more personal terms, the music documents the course of Berg's extramarital affair with Hanna Fuchs-Robettin. Not only do the movement titles suggest an all-too-familiar sequence (from jovial through amorous and ecstatic to gloomy and sorrowful), but Berg incorporates his and Fuchs-Robettin's initials into the melodies and ties the metronome markings to numerological associations with their names. The sixth movement's quotation of Wagner's Tristan und Isolde is a clear reference to illicit love.

The first movement, though freely atonal, lives up to its designation of Allegretto gioviale; it's a short, perky piece. Things become quieter and more intimate with the sensuous Andante amoroso, although the mood is still sometimes rather capricious, despite an elegiac interlude at its center. Intensity builds with the Allegro misterioso, which opens with nocturnal insect music, liberally employing pizzicato and other effects. This is, effectively, the work's scherzo movement, and at its center is a Trio estatico -- still keeping a fairly quick tempo, but now using mostly conventional bowing for longer-lined phrases. The scherzo music reappears, running in reverse to the movement's end.

The fourth movement, Adagio appassionato, forms the quartet's emotional center, with something tense and foreboding about much of the music's passion. A thrashing, dissonant climax gives way to a long passage of relative, but not quite settled, repose. The ensuing Presto delirando-Tenebroso alternates frantic music with quiet, dark, tense passages. The concluding Largo desolato maintains these moods at a much slower tempo, the music gradually dying away.

[Article taken from All Music Guide]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What does everyone think of this work? Any favorite performances? For me, it's absolutely mesmerizing. As I mentioned in another thread, it doesn't matter what the arrangement of the work actually is, I love them all just the same. Powerful music.

Hi John, sorry for the late return greeting! I'm glad you posted about the Lyric Suite as I acquired the new Emerson Quartet recording:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61NnzRPRsUL.jpg)

I'm only at the 3rd mov. and I'm already loving it, despite some of the phrasing (in the 1st mov.) because I've been imprinted by my usual stand-by recording - the Laselle Quartet's account. All the same, this is a magnificent recording and I LOVE the sound quality!
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 08, 2015, 05:17:27 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on November 08, 2015, 04:44:31 AM
Hi John, sorry for the late return greeting! I'm glad you posted about the Lyric Suite as I acquired the new Emerson Quartet recording:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61NnzRPRsUL.jpg)

I'm only at the 3rd mov. and I'm already loving it, despite some of the phrasing (in the 1st mov.) because I've been imprinted by my usual stand-by recording - the Laselle Quartet's account. All the same, this is a magnificent recording and I LOVE the sound quality!

Hey, Leo! Good to hear about that Fleming/Emerson SQ recording. I have had three recent influxes of Lyric Suite performances come my way: the Schoenberg SQ, Kronos SQ (featuring Dawn Upshaw), and Ensemble Resonanz (featuring Jean-Guihen Queyras). I've got quite a bit of catching up to do! :)
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: EigenUser on April 26, 2016, 10:37:36 AM
I've really been into the Berg sonata recently and I am trying to learn some of it on piano. I unearthed some various transcriptions of the piece.

Piano solo (original): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqE5By_69OY
Full orchestra (arr. by Verbey): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whknueubbn4
String orchestra (arr. by van Klaveren): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMCCWmHrEfw
String sextet (arr. by Müller): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17uPhYnDG38
Guitar duet (arr. by Callison): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkJT6SKOCgk
Guitar solo (arr. by Dejour): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUo-Z_H9qPA
15-piece chamber ensemble (arr. by Sansó): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tggRYvx6SNg

The one for string orchestra is probably my favorite (aside from the original piano solo). It really works well.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Scion7 on April 26, 2016, 11:17:16 AM
Always a very good composer.

Piano Sonata No.1  !
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: vers la flamme on August 22, 2019, 01:25:50 PM
Great composer, who wrote criminally too few works... I have yet to hear all of Lulu, I should probably fix that soon. Wozzeck is great, but I'm just not an opera guy. I think the best thing he ever did, probably, was the Violin Concerto "To the Memory of an Angel", though his greatest legacy is probably his contribution to the world of opera.

By the way, this is probably the greatest recording of the op.1 sonata on record:

[flash=200,200
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCICZPuJ5TM[/flash]

... though Gould's early recording is damn good too!
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Carlo Gesualdo on November 29, 2019, 03:04:55 PM
Alban Berg Lyric suite for me, this is what got me into his music and Zemlinsky by the way trough Naxos excellent CD
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: vers la flamme on December 02, 2019, 02:19:47 AM
Quote from: Carlo Gesualdo on November 29, 2019, 03:04:55 PM
Alban Berg Lyric suite for me, this is what got me into his music and Zemlinsky by the way trough Naxos excellent CD
This one?

[asin] B00006GO40[/asin]
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on December 02, 2019, 06:56:37 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 02, 2019, 02:19:47 AM
This one?

[asin] B00006GO40[/asin]

No, this one probably:

[asin]B0020MSTJA[/asin]
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Irons on December 02, 2019, 07:23:38 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 22, 2019, 01:25:50 PM
Great composer, who wrote criminally too few works... I have yet to hear all of Lulu, I should probably fix that soon. Wozzeck is great, but I'm just not an opera guy. I think the best thing he ever did, probably, was the Violin Concerto "To the Memory of an Angel", though his greatest legacy is probably his contribution to the world of opera.

By the way, this is probably the greatest recording of the op.1 sonata on record:

[flash=200,200
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCICZPuJ5TM[/flash]

... though Gould's early recording is damn good too!

Thanks for link. Never thought of Berg in context with the Blues but oddly here I did.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: vandermolen on December 02, 2019, 08:47:43 AM
Quote from: Brewski on September 16, 2014, 09:50:37 AM
Interesting trailer for new Lulu DVD starring Barbara Hannigan. Not sure about the production - hard to judge from what's shown - but she sounds terrific:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xalf_HMB2U

--Bruce

She does have a terrific voice I must say. I have seen Lulu live but it is not a work which especially appeals to me.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: staxomega on March 17, 2020, 01:46:45 PM
A disc I grabbed from storage and enjoyed listening to, Helene Lindqvist's singing is really stunning, especially moving since I was hearing it for the first time on my ESL57 speakers.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71HforVLrcL._SL1200_.jpg)

Edit: Ferne Lieder from Jugendlieder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1Ulq3tooHk
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on March 17, 2020, 02:02:01 PM
Quote from: hvbias on March 17, 2020, 01:46:45 PM
A disc I grabbed from storage and enjoyed listening to, Helene Lindqvist's singing is really stunning, especially moving since I was hearing it for the first time on my ESL57 speakers.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71HforVLrcL._SL1200_.jpg)

Edit: Ferne Lieder from Jugendlieder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1Ulq3tooHk

Berg's lieder is excellent. This is the recording I have and it's superb:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61yloRr-BxL.jpg)
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Spineur on March 19, 2020, 01:29:43 AM
Dear HVBIAS and MI,

Alban Berg composed some 80 lieder in his youth after the loss of his father in the 1904-1908 period.  He had already started his composition studies with Schoenberg.  Out of these, he extracted seven of them "The Jugendlieder" that he orchestrated later on.  He forbade the performance of the other lieder during his lifetime.  A new recording (3CDs) of the integral of all Berg lieder has just been published, and for many of them, it is a world premiere.  The performance are good.  I can recommend this small box.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91cJ9GqphSL._SL1450_.jpg)
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Karl Henning on March 19, 2020, 06:06:26 AM
Most interesting, thanks!
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Ratliff on June 05, 2020, 06:58:44 AM
Listened to Lulu again, this time a video production the Patricia Petibon and Marc Albrecht.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51NGWVFmRvL.jpg)

I must say this piece is not going to become my favorite piece by Berg. I find the libretto extremely off-putting. The theme of Lulu as some sort of philosophical femme fatale, seductive yet repulsive, powerful yet a victim, noble yet crass, is off putting. I don't find it has any contact with the reality of actual people. There are moments of great beauty in the music, but the dramatic setting doesn't resonate with me. I guess I should stick with the Lulu suite.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on June 05, 2020, 07:28:44 AM
I like Wozzeck but I never could get into Lulu. I do like the Lulu Suite however.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Biffo on June 05, 2020, 08:07:01 AM
I have seen Lulu twice, the first time many years ago as a play then much later Berg's opera.

The play was was a very dark comedy. It was fast moving and it had the audience laughing right up to the grim final scene. I am not sure how much of the original two plays, (Earth Spirit and Pandora's Box, were used in the adaptation I saw or in Berg's opera. I don't remember there being much comedy in the opera although the production I saw at English National Opera was very gripping.

I have heard the Suite both live and on disc but have never been tempted to go for the complete opera either on CD or DVD.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Ratliff on June 05, 2020, 08:36:44 AM
Quote from: Biffo on June 05, 2020, 08:07:01 AM
I have seen Lulu twice, the first time many years ago as a play then much later Berg's opera.

The play was was a very dark comedy. It was fast moving and it had the audience laughing right up to the grim final scene. I am not sure how much of the original two plays, (Earth Spirit and Pandora's Box, were used in the adaptation I saw or in Berg's opera. I don't remember there being much comedy in the opera although the production I saw at English National Opera was very gripping.

I have heard the Suite both live and on disc but have never been tempted to go for the complete opera either on CD or DVD.

That may be the issue, in Berg's hands it seems deathly serious, at least in this production which semi-adheres to the original scenario. I have another video which I may watch some time in the remote future. I think I will listen to the Lulu Suite.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Old San Antone on June 05, 2020, 09:35:13 AM
Quote from: Spineur on March 19, 2020, 01:29:43 AM
Dear HVBIAS and MI,

Alban Berg composed some 80 lieder in his youth after the loss of his father in the 1904-1908 period.  He had already started his composition studies with Schoenberg.  Out of these, he extracted seven of them "The Jugendlieder" that he orchestrated later on.  He forbade the performance of the other lieder during his lifetime.  A new recording (3CDs) of the integral of all Berg lieder has just been published, and for many of them, it is a world premiere.  The performance are good.  I can recommend this small box.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91cJ9GqphSL._SL1450_.jpg)

I think that is a really fine set, and am especially happy to have heard the early songs.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 20, 2021, 04:19:07 PM
Cross-posted from the 'Listening' thread:

Quote from: Mirror Image on April 20, 2021, 04:10:49 PM
I'm still listening to Strauss' Ariadne auf Naxos (w/ Sinopoli et. al.) and enjoying it immensely sans the narration in the Prologue, but this isn't why I'm making this post... ;)

I want to post my review of the new Berg Tilson Thomas recording:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71XXNPOUB4L._SL1200_.jpg)

Title: An All Berg Program From MTT But With Mixed Results

First, let me get the negatives out of the way first since no one apparently likes to read a complaint these days, but the performances of the "Violin Concerto" and "Seven Early Songs" are to be found in better performances elsewhere. I never have been a huge fan of Gil Shaham's violin playing as great technically as he may be, I think he missed the boat interpretatively in Berg's "Violin Concerto". The main problem is Shaham doesn't dig into the music enough here to devastate the listener or, at least, this listener. This concerto was "Written in memory of angel", but this doesn't come across here. Everything is pristine, well-paced, but it's not psychologically gripping as Berg should be. Anyway, Shaham isn't the violinist for the job. My two go-to performances here are Mutter/Levine on DG and Faust/Abbado on Harmonia Mundi. I think both of these performances get inside the music and leave the listener a bit uncomfortable. "Seven Early Songs" is well-enough sung here from Susanna Phillips and, again like Shaham, there's no questioning how technically superb she is, but there's more to Berg than this and I'll continue to return to Norman/Boulez on Sony and Otter/Abbado on DG. I do want to mention that Tilson Thomas' accompaniment is quite good, but it could be more edgier and responsive to what the soloist is doing rather than just beating time on the podium. I think what really stands out here are the "Three Pieces for Orchestra". Now, this is where I think Tilson Thomas and the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra come alive. This is a gripping performance and it does make me question why couldn't this kind of attention and excitement be in the "Seven Early Songs" and "Violin Concerto"? Was Tilson Thomas asleep at the wheel during these performances? I don't know, but he really gets inside the "Three Pieces for Orchestra" --- all of the eeriness, Expressionistic distortion and maniacal delusion are here in all their splendor. This performance doesn't quite reach the same level as Karajan's incredible Berliner performance on DG or Boulez's performance with the BBC Symphony Orchestra on Sony (originally Columbia), but it certainly gets close.

Allow me to add that the fidelity of this recording is outstanding. Anyway, I'll give this 3-stars for the "Three Pieces for Orchestra", but the weaker performances of the "Violin Concerto" and "Seven Early Songs" keep me from giving it a full 5-star rating as I don't think Shaham and Phillips were interpretatively that interesting.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Carlo Gesualdo on May 07, 2021, 07:28:37 PM
Lyric suite remain a favorite, how many time was it printed in on LP ?

Alban Berg and teacher of Schoenberg  are  favorite great favorite !!!
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: DaveF on December 16, 2021, 09:59:47 AM
Not being much of a German speaker, I was running the libretto of Wozzeck through Google Translate while listening to the Segerstam recording on Naxos.  Every time the name "Wozzeck" appears, the software asks me if I mean "Woyzeck".  I'm rather impressed by its range of cultural reference.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: staxomega on December 16, 2021, 10:20:53 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 20, 2021, 04:19:07 PM
Cross-posted from the 'Listening' thread:

I agree with you on the Violin Concerto. I wasn't as thrilled with Op. 6 Three Pieces For Orchestra. I wrote about it here, you might need to go back a few posts for the full context: https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/listenin-to-classical-music-and-conversation.652827/page-2295#post-22850038

I listened to it in stereo, I will have to respectfully disagree :) I'd add it to my long list of MTT/SFS performances that are competent and middle of the road, I found it lacking in the drama (the way Boulez builds up every climax is masterful, with MTT they just sort of arrive at the climaxes) and mystery of Boulez's. The recorded sound in stereo is exceptional

A newer performance for me of the Violin Concerto that was pretty surprising was Grumiaux and Markevitch, I wouldn't really associate Grumiaux with this type of music. Ivry Gitlis' wild swagger is another I would have wished recorded this, he blows me away in Leibowitz's Violin Concerto.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: MusicTurner on December 16, 2021, 11:40:36 AM
Quote from: hvbias on December 16, 2021, 10:20:53 AM
I agree with you on the Violin Concerto. I wasn't as thrilled with Op. 6 Three Pieces For Orchestra. I wrote about it here, you might need to go back a few posts for the full context: https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/listenin-to-classical-music-and-conversation.652827/page-2295#post-22850038

I listened to it in stereo, I will have to respectfully disagree :) I'd add it to my long list of MTT/SFS performances that are competent and middle of the road, I found it lacking in the drama (the way Boulez builds up every climax is masterful, with MTT they just sort of arrive at the climaxes) and mystery of Boulez's. The recorded sound in stereo is exceptional

A newer performance for me of the Violin Concerto that was pretty surprising was Grumiaux and Markevitch, I wouldn't really associate Grumiaux with this type of music. Ivry Gitlis' wild swagger is another I would have wished recorded this, he blows me away in Leibowitz's Violin Concerto.

Kogan/Rozhdestvensky and Mutter/Levine are probably my favourites and perhaps somewhat Gitliesque in the Berg Concerto. I also have Gitlis/Strickland in it, but I don't remember how it is, as far as I remember it's in mono too. Besides having an old LP, it's in a very fine Gitlis 3CD set from Brilliant Classics.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: staxomega on December 16, 2021, 05:47:01 PM
Quote from: MusicTurner on December 16, 2021, 11:40:36 AM
Kogan/Rozhdestvensky and Mutter/Levine are probably my favourites and perhaps somewhat Gitliesque in the Berg Concerto. I also have Gitlis/Strickland in it, but I don't remember how it is, as far as I remember it's in mono too. Besides having an old LP, it's in a very fine Gitlis 3CD set from Brilliant Classics.

Thanks for mentioning these. I hope Melodiya will do a retrospective box for Kogan, so many hard to find performances that are either LP only or on out of print CDs. Mutter/Levine was the first I heard, no doubt one of the greatest.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on December 16, 2021, 07:43:29 PM
Quote from: hvbias on December 16, 2021, 10:20:53 AM
I agree with you on the Violin Concerto. I wasn't as thrilled with Op. 6 Three Pieces For Orchestra. I wrote about it here, you might need to go back a few posts for the full context: https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/listenin-to-classical-music-and-conversation.652827/page-2295#post-22850038

I listened to it in stereo, I will have to respectfully disagree :) I'd add it to my long list of MTT/SFS performances that are competent and middle of the road, I found it lacking in the drama (the way Boulez builds up every climax is masterful, with MTT they just sort of arrive at the climaxes) and mystery of Boulez's. The recorded sound in stereo is exceptional

A newer performance for me of the Violin Concerto that was pretty surprising was Grumiaux and Markevitch, I wouldn't really associate Grumiaux with this type of music. Ivry Gitlis' wild swagger is another I would have wished recorded this, he blows me away in Leibowitz's Violin Concerto.

Well, MTT has a particular view on the Berg Three Pieces for Orchestra and he tries his best not to impose himself too much on the music because he said that one false move could ruin the whole piece.

Here talks about it here:

https://www.youtube.com/v/sF6tkYg-ZOo
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: bhodges on December 19, 2021, 05:05:40 AM
Recorded in November, here is Wozzeck (audio only) from Théâtre du Capitole de Toulouse, with Stéphane Degout and conducted by Leo Hussain:

https://www.francemusique.fr/emissions/samedi-a-l-opera/wozzeck-au-theatre-du-capitole-avec-sophie-koch-et-stephane-degout

--Bruce
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: bhodges on February 09, 2022, 06:12:39 PM
From December 18, Berg's Violin Concerto with Frank Peter Zimmermann, conductor Marek Janowski, and the WDR Sinfonieorchester. Grateful to the friend who pointed me to this performance (and reminded me that today is Berg's birthday). Outstanding audio and video.

https://www1.wdr.de/orchester-und-chor/sinfonieorchester/videos/video-alban-berg---konzert-fuer-violine-und-orchester-dem-andenken-eines-engels-100.html

--Bruce
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: ritter on February 10, 2022, 12:16:00 AM
Quote from: Brewski on February 09, 2022, 06:12:39 PM
From December 18, Berg's Violin Concerto with Frank Peter Zimmermann, conductor Marek Janowski, and the WDR Sinfonieorchester. Grateful to the friend who pointed me to this performance (and reminded me that today is Berg's birthday). Outstanding audio and video.

https://www1.wdr.de/orchester-und-chor/sinfonieorchester/videos/video-alban-berg---konzert-fuer-violine-und-orchester-dem-andenken-eines-engels-100.html

--Bruce
Nice! I saw Zimmermann perform the piece live here in Madrid some 10 years ago, with the Spanish National Orchestra conducted by Josep Pons, and he was outstanding in it! The second part of the concert was Das Lied von der Erde (w. the late Johan Botha and Anna Larsson), and Zimmermann sat next to me, completely absorbed in Mahler's music. We had a brief chat at the end, and he was very gracious and friendly.  A memorable concert.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Mirror Image on February 10, 2022, 11:36:52 AM
Quote from: ritter on February 10, 2022, 12:16:00 AM
Nice! I saw Zimmermann perform the piece live here in Madrid some 10 years ago, with the Spanish National Orchestra conducted by Josep Pons, and he was outstanding in it! The second part of the concert was Das Lied von der Erde (w. the late Johan Botha and Anna Larsson), and Zimmermann sat next to me, completely absorbed in Mahler's music. We had a brief chat at the end, and he was very gracious and friendly.  A memorable concert.

Wonderful, Rafael! Two of my favorite works and to have Zimmermann sit next to you is awesome. You're quite fortunate to have heard such incredible music-making.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: bhodges on October 17, 2022, 04:47:13 AM
From writer Tim Ashley on Twitter, and can't wait to watch.

https://twitter.com/TimAshAsh/status/1581979738679017476?s=20&t=VaKYHtitA3L4WPgNuzCKFg

"Wieland Wagner died #OnThisDay in 1966. Too few of his productions were filmed, but we do have this revival of his staging of Berg's Lulu from Stuttgart in 1969, conducted by Ferdinand Leitner, with Anja Silja utterly mesmerising in the title role"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCP1UG3_Cng&t=5s

-Bruce
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Atriod on July 01, 2023, 04:14:52 PM
I had heard the rumor that Karajan self funded his recordings of Schoenberg, Berg, Webern in an LP box (now on 3 CDs or 2 SACDs) because DG wouldn't. I can confirm it from the horse's mouth, picture taken from "Conversations With von Karajan."

Among my most favorite Karajan recordings.

(https://i.imgur.com/Z1bMDNT.jpg)
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: Lisztianwagner on July 01, 2023, 04:43:22 PM
Quote from: Atriod on July 01, 2023, 04:14:52 PMI had heard the rumor that Karajan self funded his recordings of Schoenberg, Berg, Webern in an LP box (now on 3 CDs or 2 SACDs) because DG wouldn't. I can confirm it from the horse's mouth, picture taken from "Conversations With von Karajan."

Among my most favorite Karajan recordings.

(https://i.imgur.com/Z1bMDNT.jpg)
Thank goodness he did, because Karajan's recordings of the Second Viennese School are among my favourites too, they're absolutely mesmerizing, thrilling and deeply expressive; Karajan wonderfully captured the essence of those compositions in my opinion.
Title: Re: Alban Berg (1885-1935)
Post by: brewski on July 27, 2023, 02:50:16 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on July 01, 2023, 04:43:22 PMThank goodness he did, because Karajan's recordings of the Second Viennese School are among my favourites too, they're absolutely mesmerizing, thrilling and deeply expressive; Karajan wonderfully captured the essence of those compositions in my opinion.

Another vote for those recordings. The caliber of the playing is outstanding, and likely persuaded some people who originally thought they didn't like any of those composers.

This afternoon I watched a live concert version of Wozzeck from the Verbier Festival, broadcast on medici.tv, and it was fantastic. Bo Skovhus apparently stepped in at the last minute to replace Matthias Goerne. I like both singers, and Goerne would have likely been marvelous, but Skovhus—who has also done the role many times—can still sing it beautifully, adding a bit of world-weariness to the existing despair. The rest of the cast were excellent, including Camilla Nyland as Marie. Lahav Shani conducted the young Verbier Festival Orchestra beautifully—as one announcer noted, likely none of them (ages 18-28) had ever played the score before.

To seal the deal were expressionist video images created by K-WER-K (video art) and Aline Foriel-Destezet (concept), on a panoramic backdrop above the musicians onstage.

Medici.tv usually archives these for a few months after the streams. For anyone who loves Berg (and perhaps for some who don't), highly recommended.

-Bruce