I have some bits and pieces by this composer but never made much of them. However, I just bought a second hand Bay Cities CD of music by American composers including Cowell's Symphony No 5 from 1948. This is by far the best music I have heard from him - lyrical, moving (especially the slow movement) and well-integrated. I think that it is a fine American symphony.
Any other views on Cowell?
Honestly, I wish I knew more of his music, but this will soon change. I've heard he was a bit of a radical, but he was also not afraid to compose something of lyrical beauty.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 06, 2011, 07:34:36 PM
Honestly, I wish I knew more of his music, but this will soon change. I've heard he was a bit of a radical, but he was also not afraid to compose something of lyrical beauty.
Thanks for your response. On the strength of Symphony No 5 I've just ordered a CD entitled 'Persian Set' which I'll report back on in due course.
Hello everyone. Regarding the Persian set'. I have had this cd for some time. Cowells use of vocal contributions from the orchestra reminded me of the different but similairly colourful 'Eventyr' by Delius. There are some newer recordings of Cowell,conducted by Botstein,available on Amazon,(and maybe some other site),for download,which include his Second & eleventh symphonies & a deleted Koch cd,which includes some more symphonies. The sound quality on the latter seemed a bit 'thin' & this should be taken into account before downloading or buying. The Naxos cd's are Cowell in more experimental mode & I must admit to not being so keen on those. Cowell is very neglected at the moment & his interest in the the East makes him an interesting comparison to the better known Hovhaness. There also recordings of Cowell playing & announcing some of his piano music on another cd. Unfortunately Cowell doesn't have a cult following like Hovhaness,but in my opinion he is an intriguing figure who certainly deserves more exposure. No doubt some of the smaller & more adventurous record labels will reach him in the end.
I went through a Cowell discovery process. My BottomLine with Cowell is not that complimentary, but, within such a wide ranging WorksList, there will probably be something for everyone.
1) Piano Music: if you like Cage's Sonatas & Interludes, you'll like Cowell's playful experiments. One certainly cannot overlook Cowell's contribution to 20th Century Piano Music. There is also some Harpsichord Music. I'm not sure about guitar or harp, but I think Lou Harrison overshadows on both.
1A) Piano & Violin Music: I believe there are four pieces(?), including the Suite, the Sonata, a Hymn & Fuging Tune, and perhaps an Air (?). They are all on a 'Complete' cd.
1B)...Cello...: There is the early Sonata (which hasn't got all favorable reviews; I haven't heard it (they say it sounds juvenile)), and a few anniversary pieces, and a solo piece ('Vigorously & Gravely'). I believe all pieces are fairly available. There might be a DUO for violin & cello, but I can't think of why.
1C) Piano Trio: Koch has a cd of all PTs (plus other bits I believe), which I think amount to three(?).
2) String Quartets: Nos. 1-2 are in HC's ultra dissonant style. No.3 is a mixture, from the '30s. The most famous might be No.4, United, which i have not hear. No.5 is Late, and may be very conservative.
3) Chamber Music: regardless of the instrumentation, HC's music will either be in the ultra dissonant style, or the Late, much much more conservative, Style. There are Piano Trios, of which I like Four Combinations for (preferred version by hartley Trio). Fluffy trifles for cello and violin (Violin Sonata?) tend to be frivolous. Special mention should be made of the set of Hymn & Fuguing Tunes for different combinations of instruments, up to orchestra (I think).
3A)The Quartet Romantic is for 2 flutes and 2 strings. There's the 6 clarinet pieces. There's an oboe piece on a Crystal recital (is it the Hymn& Fuguing Tune, or something else?). There's probably a few other pieces for the other instruments, but I don't think we'll find much substance: at 700 pieces, there must be a lot of small stuff, no? The Woodwind Quintet is one such piece.
3A II) Brass Music: there's a Hymn & Fuguing Tunes for brass ensemble, and I believe one for three trombones.
3B) There's a harpsichord Quintet of the Naxos disc, and there's a harp Quintet on the Mode set.
There's the Set of Five, Persian Set, and Homage to Iran. I don't know how many ensemble works we get here in the trio-quintet-octet range, but the aren't many 'famous' things, so, maybe, if we just look at what's available, and have a Complete Works List, I'm sure we can fill in the blanks in our heads, no? We probably don't need to even scour too far. But there are the pieces Ensemble (including the 'Adagio' (with 'thunderstick')), Polyphonica, 36 Simultaneous Mosiacs, a few of the Hymn & Fuguing Tunes, and the other pieces mentioned previously. That sounds like the beginning of a portrait.
As a rule, HC's LateMusic is all very conservative and pretty, all written after his stint in jail. This can be slightly maddening. This music all sounds very much like Lou Harrison's more fluffy style (the two share more than their share of sounds).
I have a great Mode 2cd set called 'Mosaic', which includes a nice swathe of Chamber Music, in all his different styles. There is a Late harp quintet that is as light and gay as anything. This may be the best overall HC set out there.
3C) Percussion: HC also has a few percussion pieces from the dawn of that era, also. Pulse, Return
4) String Orchestra: the early Adagio is in the ultra dissonant style, but the Hymn&FuguingTunes are all light. I have Koch cds of really light, 'American' sounding 'melting pots' that really do nothing for me. There is also a CPO disc of the same material
5) Symphonies: what?,... we have 17? Perhaps vandermolen got one of the good ones (No.5). I've heard a few bits here and there, and I hear a lot of HC's conservative style. I still haven't heard a very good overview of these Works, and have pretty much given up here.
5A) Piano Concertos: There's a disc of about 4-5 different concertante works. I can't off hand think of ANY OTHER CONCERTOS; can you help me here?
5B) Other Orchestral Music: Music 1957, Synchrony, various orchestrated suites like the American Melting Pot, and so forth, and what seems like a bewildering array of pieces called Air (there's one for violin and one for sax).
There might be pieces called 'Chorale' or Fiddler's Jig, or all kinds of things like that.
6) Eclectic/Indigenous Music: the Iran and Persian musics are ok. The Japanese stuff,... eh. I just find this StoneAge,... so much more has been learned since the the advent of WorldMusic. One cannot discount HC, but I find him obsolete here. Harrison certainly took over here.
All I can say to any prospective Cowell seeker is: WatchOut!!,... there is a lot of research, but not that much reward, IMHO. The Mode set is my pick for a OneStop Cowell class. Perhaps those two Naxos discs will be enough.
I have two Koch discs (one has the Late Concerto Grosso, which sounds very Middle Ages to me), the Mode set, and some other, random, pieces (that Piano Trio, 4 Combinations, I like). I have, more than once, really tried,... TRIED to get to the bottom of Cowell, but I truly think his personal life overshadowed his talent. Whatever happened,... or,... whatever proclivities he might have had,... seem to me to have caused a reaction in his music. He just got so,... fake?,... writing all this 'pretty' music so as not to make any further waves? I don't know, but it sure seems as if that were the case. His LateMusic certainly has no testosterone. btw- he was quite the looker as a young man,... quite the typical gay WestCoast look as an elderly man. Perhaps he was just a Cat Lady in drag? I find Cowell a tragedy. :( Perhaps I've opined too much here,... I'm not seeking a gay debate, however interesting the 'manly' sounds of Ives and Ruggles might compare to the more 'feminine' sounds of Cowell, Harrison, etc.,... CRI certainly poisoned me against this whole topic, oy vey!! ::) ok, just disregard the last paragraph! ;D 8)
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 07, 2011, 04:48:08 AM
Hello everyone. Regarding the Persian set'. I have had this cd for some time. Cowells use of vocal contributions from the orchestra reminded me of the different but similairly colourful 'Eventyr' by Delius. There are some newer recordings of Cowell,conducted by Botstein,available on Amazon,(and maybe some other site),for download,which include his Second & eleventh symphonies & a deleted Koch cd,which includes some more symphonies. The sound quality on the latter seemed a bit 'thin' & this should be taken into account before downloading or buying. The Naxos cd's are Cowell in more experimental mode & I must admit to not being so keen on those. Cowell is very neglected at the moment & his interest in the the East makes him an interesting comparison to the better known Hovhaness. There also recordings of Cowell playing & announcing some of his piano music on another cd. Unfortunately Cowell doesn't have a cult following like Hovhaness,but in my opinion he is an intriguing figure who certainly deserves more exposure. No doubt some of the smaller & more adventurous record labels will reach him in the end.
Thanks so much for this and welcome to the forum. I'll report back on 'Persian Set' in due course.
Quote from: snyprrr on March 07, 2011, 07:26:53 AM
I went through a Cowell discovery process. My BottomLine with Cowell is not that complimentary, but, within such a wide ranging WorksList, there will probably be something for everyone.
1) Piano Music: if you like Cage's Sonatas & Interludes, you'll like Cowell's playful experiments. One certainly cannot overlook Cowell's contribution to 20th Century Piano Music.
2) String Quartets: Nos. 1-2 are in HC's ultra dissonant style. No.3 is a mixture, from the '30s. The most famous might be No.4, United, which i have not hear. No.5 is Late, and may be very conservative.
3) Chamber Music: regardless of the instrumentation, HC's music will either be in the ultra dissonant style, or the Late, much much more conservative, Style. There are Piano Trios, of which I like Four Combinations for (preferred version by hartley Trio). Fluffy trifles for cello and violin (Violin Sonata?) tend to be frivolous.
As a rule, HC's LateMusic is all very conservative and pretty, all written after his stint in jail. This can be slightly maddening. This music all sounds very much like Lou Harrison's more fluffy style (the two share more than their share of sounds).
I have a great Mode 2cd set called 'Mosaic', which includes a nice swathe of Chamber Music, in all his different styles. There is a Late harp quintet that is as light and gay as anything. This may be the best overall HC set out there.
HC also has a few percussion pieces from the dawn of that era, also.
4) String Orchestra: the early Adagio is in the ultra dissonant style, but the Hymn&FuguingTunes are all light. I have Koch cds of really light, 'American' sounding 'melting pots' that really do nothing for me. There is also a CPO disc of the same material
5) Symphonies: what?,... we have 17? Perhaps vandermolen got one of the good ones (No.5). I've heard a few bits here and there, and I hear a lot of HC's conservative style. I still haven't heard a very good overview of these Works, and have pretty much given up here.
6) Eclectic/Indigenous Music: the Iran and Persian musics are ok. The Japanese stuff,... eh. I just find this StoneAge,... so much more has been learned since the the advent of WorldMusic. One cannot discount HC, but I find him obsolete here. Harrison certainly took over here.
All I can say to any prospective Cowell seeker is: WatchOut!!,... there is a lot of research, but not that much reward, IMHO. The Mode set is my pick for a OneStop Cowell class. Perhaps those two Naxos discs will be enough.
I have two Koch discs (one has the Late Concerto Grosso, which sounds very Middle Ages to me), the Mode set, and some other, random, pieces (that Piano Trio, 4 Combinations, I like). I have, more than once, really tried,... TRIED to get to the bottom of Cowell, but I truly think his personal life overshadowed his talent. Whatever happened,... or,... whatever proclivities he might have had,... seem to me to have caused a reaction in his music. He just got so,... fake?,... writing all this 'pretty' music so as not to make any further waves? I don't know, but it sure seems as if that were the case. His LateMusic certainly has no testosterone. btw- he was quite the looker as a young man,... quite the typical gay WestCoast look as an elderly man. Perhaps he was just a Cat Lady in drag? I find Cowell a tragedy. :( Perhaps I've opined too much here,... I'm not seeking a gay debate, however interesting the 'manly' sounds of Ives and Ruggles might compare to the more 'feminine' sounds of Cowell, Harrison, etc.,... CRI certainly poisoned me against this whole topic, oy vey!! ::) ok, just disregard the last paragraph! ;D 8)
That's really helpful - thanks very much for taking so much trouble to respond. Up until Symphony No 5 I had not appreciated Cowell, but as you suggest maybe I was lucky with this one. Others might find the idiom too conservative but I was very moved by this work - which is my main critirea for appreciation! Thanks again.
Interesting that some composers become more stylistically radical as time goes on (Schoenberg, Braga Santos and Lilburn come immediately to mind), whereas Cowell appears to become more conservative.
I listened to the percussion piece Return (1939), which had a kind of dark tropical feel; and that harp Quintet from 1962, which sounds a bit like renaissance music mixed with that Cowellness,... not a note out of place. For a harp Quintet, I found it soporific in the worst sense. Pretty and perky dullness going nowhere.
Both of these pieces are on the Mode 2cd.
I think you're overall verdict on Cowell COULD be right! I have to say that while I find some of his music interesting,it's not music I would generally return to very often. Indeed, I would be inclined to place some of his music in the 'experiment for experiments sake' category,it just doesn't seem to have any real musical merit. As to his dabbling in eastern & exotic modes; I find his efforts lack the imagination and sincerity of some of Hovhaness's best efforts. Cowell's response is more of a 'dabbler',whereas Hovhaness's musics,with all their inherent faults,do come over as heartfelt. I quite enjoyed the Koch cd 'Persian Set',but I would be loathe to make any great musical claims for it. Indeed,I would be foolish to do so. But,it is quite fun to listen to now & again,and strikes me as the sort of cd that might help to persuade some sceptics that there's more sides to classical music than just Beethoven & Mozart. A sort of Party cd for New Agers & the quality of the performances help.
The old Louisville recordings of Symphonies 11 & 15 have their moments & while the recordings are old and showing their age they do have conviction and atmosphere which some newer recordings of Cowell's music seem to lack. Unfortunately,the symphonies are uneven & seem more like suites,but they do have an odd atmosphere & some of the effects Cowell summons from his orchestra are striking,and,at least to my ears,genuinely imaginative. In fact,'eerie' and 'spooky' and haunting are words that all spring to mind,which is more than I can say for his 'Banshee'! The 'Ongaku for Orchestra',on the other hand,while not unpleasant,is as some critic observed,(I forget who),the sort of thing that Hovhaness (& Harrison) did allot better.
Of the Henry Cowell I have heard to date,these two cd's stand out as the only one's I have enjoyed. They are both,to my ears at least,exceptionally well performed. The itsy bitsy representation Cowell has at present in the record catalogue suggests to me that Cowell's music needs a more committed & thorough re-appraisal before we can really come to any genuinely balanced assessment of his achievement. Although no doubt some small record label will come to his 'rescue' sooner or later!
I gather that you're not an admirer 'Snyprrr'?!!!
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 11, 2011, 04:57:45 AM
I think you're overall verdict on Cowell COULD be right! I have to say that while I find some of his music interesting,it's not music I would generally return to very often. Indeed, I would be inclined to place some of his music in the 'experiment for experiments sake' category,it just doesn't seem to have any real musical merit. As to his dabbling in eastern & exotic modes; I find his efforts lack the imagination and sincerity of some of Hovhaness's best efforts. Cowell's response is more of a 'dabbler',whereas Hovhaness's musics,with all their inherent faults,do come over as heartfelt. I quite enjoyed the Koch cd 'Persian Set',but I would be loathe to make any great musical claims for it. Indeed,I would be foolish to do so. But,it is quite fun to listen to now & again,and strikes me as the sort of cd that might help to persuade some sceptics that there's more sides to classical music than just Beethoven & Mozart. A sort of Party cd for New Agers & the quality of the performances help.
The old Louisville recordings of Symphonies 11 & 15 have their moments & while the recordings are old and showing their age they do have conviction and atmosphere which some newer recordings of Cowell's music seem to lack. Unfortunately,the symphonies are uneven & seem more like suites,but they do have an odd atmosphere & some of the effects Cowell summons from his orchestra are striking,and,at least to my ears,genuinely imaginative. In fact,'eerie' and 'spooky' and haunting are words that all spring to mind,which is more than I can say for his 'Banshee'! The 'Ongaku for Orchestra',on the other hand,while not unpleasant,is as some critic observed,(I forget who),the sort of thing that Hovhaness (& Harrison) did allot better.
Of the Henry Cowell I have heard to date,these two cd's stand out as the only one's I have enjoyed. They are both,to my ears at least,exceptionally well performed. The itsy bitsy representation Cowell has at present in the record catalogue suggests to me that Cowell's music needs a more committed & thorough re-appraisal before we can really come to any genuinely balanced assessment of his achievement. Although no doubt some small record label will come to his 'rescue' sooner or later!
I gather that you're not an admirer 'Snyprrr'?!!!
I admire the... mmm... gumption??? of Cowell. One certainly needs someone to do the stuff he did, but, I suppose, one does not need to like the results. Without his prodding, maybe we would be less rich today? Still, your assessment is as mine: wildly uneven, with the nuggets coming with much seeking and searching, to the point where you wonder if it was all worth it. The 'Persion Set' cd I have, and yes, it's 'fun',... for a while.
I suppose we do need a general WARNING concerning Cowell? Research as much as you can before purchase? The fact that so much early Lou Harrison also mirrors Cowell, can be confusing.
Why would I have Jack Cassidy play Cowell in the movie version?
I can't resist giving a honorary mention to Cowell's 'Atlantis' available as a download conducted by the idefatigable Botstein,from Amazon (& possibly some other sites). I've got to hand it to Cowell, I haven't laughed so much listening to a piece of music in ages. Trouble is I'm not altogether sure it's meant to be funny,but hopefully it is. Anyway,Cowell basically gets his singers to groan and scream and howl & make all kinds of wierd noises. It's a bit dada-esque,have a listen!
Some of the negative comments here made me go back to the Albany/Louisville cd. This time around I have been rather impressed by the Symphonies,particularly No 11. But,again, maybe it's just the quality of the performance!
Followed the Cowell cd's with a cd of Vaughan Wiliams's 'London Symphony'. A totally different composer from a different continent,but it does bring home what real musical inspiration is all about. I think,ultimately,I concur with 'snyprrr',Cowell was a bit too 'clever' for his own good. I would,however, recommend the Louisville recordings,despite their age,to anyone out there who wants to give this intriguing but ultimately rather frustrating composer a try. I have now downloaded Botsteins performances of Cowell's 'Atlantis' and Second symphony & shall have another crack at HC when I've got some spare time! For the time being it's back to V-W!
Quote from: snyprrr on March 07, 2011, 07:26:53 AM
1) Piano Music: if you like Cage's Sonatas & Interludes, you'll like Cowell's playful experiments. One certainly cannot overlook Cowell's contribution to 20th Century Piano Music.
Not sure about that, as I'm living proof of the contrary - I adore Cage's S+Is (think they are one of the key works of the 20th century) and am not impressed with Cowell's piano music much at all - and I've played a great deal of it, many times. There's not a great deal of refinement in there, just big bold ideas roughly sketched out - clusters being only the most obvious. There are some interesting and even beautiful pieces - my favourite is Fabric, an experiment into the notation of complex rhythms which fails, but which makes a lovely sound on the way. But there's nothing with the exquisite ear for sonority and structure evident in every bar of the Cage.
My favourite Cowell fact - he met Janacek whilst on a tour of Europe. If one tries very hard one can pretend there is some influence going in one direction or the other, but there isn't really; however, the fact that they met seems a little incongruous, somehow (just as does the fact that Janacek met Tagore too)
Yeah, James, we all know what you think, but hey, I have my reasons for saying what I say (and feeling what I feel) and they are perfectly good, musically-educated and musically-founded ones, so leave off with the eye-rolling, huh? It's a bit tedious. ::) ;)
Of course it is, James. That's why it's mentioned in all the textbooks of 20th century music - because it's important in the history of that music. See how that works?
Mostly because, James, I can't be bothered to try to engage you in musical debate - a) I'm far too tired, and b) what would be the point, I know how you'd respond - with the usal lack of reference to musical specifics and resort to nah, whatever, eye roll, pffff, etc. I could talk, at 1 a.m., after an exhausting week of music-making, start to talk about the structural innovations and influence of the Sonatas and Interludes all night, but what would be the point, your mind is made up and closed, you'll dismiss them as piffle because that's how (without ever giving musial reasons as to why) you dismiss all music in that tradition. The S+I are without doubt a key work in 20th century music, just a key work in an area you don't have any time for.
Schoenberg's Romeo and Juliet?
::)
No doubt if Henry Cowell was still around,albeit EXTREMELY OLD,he would probably relish some of these posts!
Quote from: Luke on March 11, 2011, 02:41:29 PM
Not sure about that, as I'm living proof of the contrary - I adore Cage's S+Is (think they are one of the key works of the 20th century) and am not impressed with Cowell's piano music much at all - and I've played a great deal of it, many times. There's not a great deal of refinement in there, just big bold ideas roughly sketched out - clusters being only the most obvious. There are some interesting and even beautiful pieces - my favourite is Fabric, an experiment into the notation of complex rhythms which fails, but which makes a lovely sound on the way. But there's nothing with the exquisite ear for sonority and structure evident in every bar of the Cage.
QFT
Well,fancy that! A revival.perhaps only brief,of a rather brief thread! I have just put on the Col Legno cd of Cowell's Piano Concerto & other assorted works for Piano /& orchestra & to my suprise I really AM enjoying this one. Spirited performances and top notch recording quality.Maybe old smarty pants Henry Cowell IS worth a revival of some kind after all?
Splendid stuff & I actually had this one ready for the charity shop! To my ears this is by far the best case for Cowell,I have encountered, so far and may actually get a couple of return visits to my cd player!!!
I'd actually be prepared to stick up for this one.
Incidentally,I'd better check out what else I might have dumped in that 'charity' box!!!
Just to say that I too have some Cowell on cd :)
Four cds in fact: an ancient American Masters cd with Symphony No.7 and Symphony No.16 "Icelandic" plus the Variations for Orchestra played by the Vienna Symphony Orchestra, the Iceland Symphony Orchestra and the Polish National Radio Orchestra(strange!), the Louisville recordings of Symphonies Nos. 11 and 15, a CPO disc of Music for Strings and the Koch cd referred to above.
I collect symphonies(as you may have noticed ;D) and I would be interested in knowing where those additional Cowell symphonies can be obtained.
Not a major composer...at least not in his 'conservative' second half...but interesting and attractive music nevertheless :)
The Cowell I am referring to is entitled 'American Piano Concerto's' and is on the Col Legno label. Unfortunately,it is £15.02 from Amazon,but it may be possible to get it cheaper from a seller or some other outlet. The music is in Cowells more tuneful vein,but with some of his eccentrities & experimental techniques thrown in for good measure. While I enjoyed the entire cd on repeat mode,which is the acid test,really;probably my favourite is the Concerto Piccolo parts of which sound like someone banging their fists.repeatedly, down on the keyboard,but the orchestration is very melodic,rather gorgeous actually. I have to say that some of Cowell's music is quite enjoyable,but a bit too clever for it's own good. It's not something you come back to that often. In this case,I think Cowell's ideas really do seem to work,in the sense that they're not JUST eccentric or bizarre,the music is actually enjoyable,at times rather beautiful and fun to listen too,as well. In fact,I have no hesitation in stating that this is in my humble opinion (!) the best and most convincing Cowell cd I have heard. Although,I would like to point out that I am NOT for one moment suggesting that there are any masterpieces here. But I like it,so Oxfam won't get it!
I think I will put the Mode 'Dancing with Henry' cd on my list now. This contains 'Atlantis',which could easily have been entitled 'Moaning & Wailing with instrumental accompaniment',but could be a fun,what's this party piece & the samples are sufficiently intriguing,for me at least. Curiosities like this can be fun,WHEN you're in the right mood.
Or horrible,if you hate Cowell's,sometimes,admittedly,self consciously,'I'm so wacky,aren't I?',ideas!
NB: It strikes me,that a piece like 'Atlantis' could be more fun to perform in,than
actually listen to. Also,I would get paid for wailing,moaning and beating my chest!
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 02, 2011, 01:18:18 PM
Just to say that I too have some Cowell on cd :)
Four cds in fact: an ancient American Masters cd with Symphony No.7 and Symphony No.16 "Icelandic" plus the Variations for Orchestra played by the Vienna Symphony Orchestra, the Iceland Symphony Orchestra and the Polish National Radio Orchestra(strange!), the Louisville recordings of Symphonies Nos. 11 and 15, a CPO disc of Music for Strings and the Koch cd referred to above.
I collect symphonies(as you may have noticed ;D) and I would be interested in knowing where those additional Cowell symphonies can be obtained.
Not a major composer...at least not in his 'conservative' second half...but interesting and attractive music nevertheless :)
Hi Colin - Symphony No 5, which I like very much, is on an old Bay Cities CD, which I think I bought, relatively cheaply, from Amazon US.
Jeffrey
There are new recordings of some Cowell symphonies conducted by Botstein,but only available as downloads,as far as I know.
Now I'm listening to the Koch cd,entitled,'Persian Set',again. Interesting,but not especially fascinating,to compare Cowell's response to 'Persia' with Koechlin's. It has to be said that Koechlin is,unsuprisingly,both more profound and less predictable. At the same time Cowell's take on Alan Hovhaness is very enjoyable & the bits where the orchestra join in the arabian night hi-jinks,with 'Eventyr' style 'shouts' are great fun. I think my mum will enjoy this. And probably more than Koechlin,sadly!
Enjoying it though. (These Sennheiser cordless headphones are a definate bonus)).
The playing and recording quality are fantastic.
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 03, 2011, 08:31:39 AM
Now I'm listening to the Koch cd,entitled,'Persian Set'. Interesting,but not fascinating to compare Cowell's response to 'Persia' with Koechlin's. It has to be said that Koechlin is,unsuprisingly,both more profound and less predictable. At the same time Cowell's take on Alan Hovhaness is very enjoyable & the bits where the orchestra join in the arabian night hi-jinks,with 'Eventyr' style 'shouts' are great fun. I think my mum will enjoy this. And probably more than Koechlin,sadly!
Enjoying it though.
Koechlin is one of most profound composers I know. His music seems to transcend time and space. Maybe others don't hear this but I certainly do. Rediscovering his music has been a life-affirming experience. I eagerly await the next addition in Hanssler's Koechlin series.
I can't say Cowell is particularly that interesting of a composer. He seems to be lumped in with Ives and Ruggles, but, to my ears, he doesn't match their greatness or originality.
Okay,the Mode cd of Henry Cowell 'Dancing with Henry' has now been ordered.
The cd has a rave review on 'Classical Music Review'. A goldmine? Well.I b***** hope so!!!! If I don't like Cowell's 'Atlantis' I'll probably be joining in with the wailing and ululating!
Really enjoying the following Cowell cd's now:
Henry Cowell: A Continuum Portrait Vol 1 Naxos
Henry Cowell (plays Henry Cowell) Piano Music Smithsonian Folkways
Naxos's : A continuum Portrait Vol 2 has now been ordered
Finally,Henry Cowells fan club has one member.
This could boost our numbers considerably!
Quote from: snyprrr on March 07, 2011, 07:26:53 AM
I went through a Cowell discovery process. My BottomLine with Cowell is not that complimentary, but, within such a wide ranging WorksList, there will probably be something for everyone.
1) Piano Music: if you like Cage's Sonatas & Interludes, you'll like Cowell's playful experiments. One certainly cannot overlook Cowell's contribution to 20th Century Piano Music.
2) String Quartets: Nos. 1-2 are in HC's ultra dissonant style. No.3 is a mixture, from the '30s. The most famous might be No.4, United, which i have not hear. No.5 is Late, and may be very conservative.
3) Chamber Music: regardless of the instrumentation, HC's music will either be in the ultra dissonant style, or the Late, much much more conservative, Style. There are Piano Trios, of which I like Four Combinations for (preferred version by hartley Trio). Fluffy trifles for cello and violin (Violin Sonata?) tend to be frivolous.
As a rule, HC's LateMusic is all very conservative and pretty, all written after his stint in jail. This can be slightly maddening. This music all sounds very much like Lou Harrison's more fluffy style (the two share more than their share of sounds).
I have a great Mode 2cd set called 'Mosaic', which includes a nice swathe of Chamber Music, in all his different styles. There is a Late harp quintet that is as light and gay as anything. This may be the best overall HC set out there.
HC also has a few percussion pieces from the dawn of that era, also.
4) String Orchestra: the early Adagio is in the ultra dissonant style, but the Hymn&FuguingTunes are all light. I have Koch cds of really light, 'American' sounding 'melting pots' that really do nothing for me. There is also a CPO disc of the same material
5) Symphonies: what?,... we have 17? Perhaps vandermolen got one of the good ones (No.5). I've heard a few bits here and there, and I hear a lot of HC's conservative style. I still haven't heard a very good overview of these Works, and have pretty much given up here.
6) Eclectic/Indigenous Music: the Iran and Persian musics are ok. The Japanese stuff,... eh. I just find this StoneAge,... so much more has been learned since the the advent of WorldMusic. One cannot discount HC, but I find him obsolete here. Harrison certainly took over here.
All I can say to any prospective Cowell seeker is: WatchOut!!,... there is a lot of research, but not that much reward, IMHO. The Mode set is my pick for a OneStop Cowell class. Perhaps those two Naxos discs will be enough.
7)
Vocal Music: I'm not even going there...
clijwin ( ;)),... sorry, that's what you get for now, haha,... I restate my Cowell Warning not to go the full Rabbit Hole, unless of course you have an excess of cash.
Currently, we have the
two Koch discs (one features the Late
Concerto Grosso; the other with the
Persian Set), the excellent
2cd Mode set (that's really the one you want; you can also get the (Almost) Complete SQs on a CRI re-issue), some Fienberg piano pieces (
2 Argo discs),... aaand, oh yes, the preferrable (opposed to Koch)
Gamut cd of Piano Trios (with Ives, Beach, and Bloch).
Arguably, this is, excepting the 'serious' Symphonic Works and more of the Piano Music, an extremely broad view of Cowell, and, lest by some temptation I seek out some Awesomely Mysterious Lost Work that I simply haven't heard, I think I can sum up Cowell as the teacher of Harrison. All of Cowell is amplified and expanded in Harrison, I believe.
1) Frankly, I remain skeptical about that ColLegno disc of Piano Concertos. Does it sound to me like you're really trying to convince yourself on this one? :-*
2) Those two Naxos discs are a grand cause, but I have encapsulated within other recordings, except the Iran piece, which I'm not as crazy about as the other, Persian, piece.
3) Piano Music? For me, it's all on YouTube if I need it;but, I still groove to it...
4) I do always hold out hope that one of the Symphonies will speak to me.
I read as much about Cowell as I could, before buying,... studying the Works List against the Discography. I found a lot of trifles and such which seem to inflate things. With such an uneven Composer, you have to be ready for a bumpy ride.
Funny you should mention 'the full rabbit hole'. I've just been down it via Del Tredici's 'Final Alice'. Now that's something! Or maybe it's just Barbara Hendrick's tour de force vocals! You're posts are very interesting. I was wondering when you might pop back! I quite like his music & I did listen to a few Cowell cd's a while back and then I got bored! This time they seemed to click & I have enjoyed them a little more. On the other hand,it is hard to take the man seriously. Just listening to the cd of him playing his music & some of his portentous,overtly solemn introductions. It's hard not to crack up. He just takes himself so seriously. Which strikes me as one of Cowell's main problems,if not his biggest problem. No sense of humour.
Agree with you about the symphonies & the Hymn and Fuguing tunes being his least interesting work. It seems to me that Harrison and Hovhaness did this sort of thing a bit better. Mind you,Hovhaness (and I do like SOME of his music) probably should have stopped after No1! (I do quite like No 8!) To be fair the performances are all pretty ancient & some of them probably aren't very good,but whether they are worth the time and effort of a really good orchestra and conductor is probably open to debate. Though I doubt if many people are going to bother. I quite like No 11 in small doses!
I did rather enjoy the Col Legno cd this time around,I'm afraid. The best item for me was the 'Concerto Piccolo',but I certainly wouldn't take the cd,with me,to a desert island,even if I could play it,except perhaps to eat on!
As to the Persian set cd. I do quite like this,because it's the only Cowell cd where HC seems to show any kind of humour at all. This is light music and it is hard to believe that Cowell was trying to do anything ground breaking here. On the other hand, knowing how seriously HC took himself by now,I'm not exactly suprised! In fact,If I had been able to meet Cowell,which is of course impossible,I would have had only two words to say to him,"Lighten up!" (Maybe a whoopee cushion under his cushion or some laughing gas would help,IF he knew how to laugh!)
To be fair to me snyprrr,while I do quite like some of his music & he's 'quite' an intriguing ego centric (and I DO feel ALLOT safer knowing he's dead!),my 'bumping' of this not exactly popular composer thread HAS been largely tongue in cheek.
PS: Thanks for the cd recommendations!!!
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 04, 2011, 02:30:42 PM
Funny you should mention 'the full rabbit hole'. I've just been down it via Del Tredici's 'Final Alice'. Now that's something! Or maybe it's just Barbara Hendrick's tour de force vocals! You're posts are very interesting. I was wondering when you might pop back! I quite like his music & I did listen to a few Cowell cd's a while back and then I got bored! This time they seemed to click & I have enjoyed them a little more. On the other hand,it is hard to take the man seriously. Just listening to the cd of him playing his music & some of his portentous,overtly solemn introductions. It's hard not to crack up. He just takes himself so seriously. Which strikes me as one of Cowell's main problems,if not his biggest problem. No sense of humour.
Agree with you about the symphonies & the Hymn and Fuguing tunes being his least interesting work. It seems to me that Harrison and Hovhaness did this sort of thing a bit better. Mind you,Hovhaness (and I do like SOME of his music) probably should have stopped after No1! (I do quite like No 8!) To be fair the performances are all pretty ancient & some of them probably aren't very good,but whether they are worth the time and effort of a really good orchestra and conductor is probably open to debate. Though I doubt if many people are going to bother. I quite like No 11 in small doses!
I did rather enjoy the Col Legno cd this time around,I'm afraid. The best item for me was the 'Concerto Piccolo',but I certainly wouldn't take the cd,with me,to a desert island,even if I could play it,except perhaps to eat on!
As to the Persian set cd. I do quite like this,because it's the only Cowell cd where HC seems to show any kind of humour at all. This is light music and it is hard to believe that Cowell was trying to do anything ground breaking here. On the other hand, knowing how seriously HC took himself by now,I'm not exactly suprised! In fact,If I had been able to meet Cowell,which is of course impossible,I would have had only two words to say to him,"Lighten up!" (Maybe a whoopee cushion under his cushion or some laughing gas would help,IF he knew how to laugh!)
To be fair to me snyprrr,while I do quite like some of his music & he's 'quite' an intriguing ego centric (and I DO feel ALLOT safer knowing he's dead!),my 'bumping' of this not exactly popular composer thread HAS been largely tongue in cheek.
PS: Thanks for the cd recommendations!!!
I'm getting into a sentimental, CRI type mood now, haha!
Do look into that Mode set, though.
btw- any perceived Cowell proclivities would probably be celebrated today. :( No one is safe!! :o
If he was around today he'd probably be playing a piano in the Celebrity Big Brother House.
Nobody would have a b***** clue who he was!
I heard Bartok sent him a letter asking if he could use clusters in his music. What a gentleman Bartok was! I wish I could read the actual letter. So many references to it, not a single quote.
And the great Bela Bartok had to ask Henry Cowell!!!
I hope he got a nice polite letter back.
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 05, 2011, 11:31:47 AM
And the great Bela Bartok had to ask Henry Cowell!!!
I hope he got a nice polite letter back.
I think Cowell invented the way clusters are notated, and since it was a new invention then, I can see why Bartok might have wanted to check with the inventor.
Well,suprise,suprise! I'm not the ony person in the world who ISN'T bored stiff by Henry Cowell. I have just discovered that HC has now got his own very posh looking website. The Official Henry Cowell website,complete with a nice big photograph of HC with his pet cat on the welcome page. I like cats! Not a huge amount of information on there,compared to say,the Bax or Brian websites (how do you beat that?),but it is new,apparently,and,hey, you've got to start somewhere,haven't you? Unfortunately,I couldn't put a b***** site up like that if you paid me. Well,actually,come to think of it,if I WAS paid,maybe I could come up with something,it just depends how much. Enough to buy a new car or a house with a stream running through the garden,a swimmimg pool,my own recording studio,personal symphony orchestra complete with professional musicians & conductor, a bit of land,and an indoor toilet.
Either way,having a website is definately a plus point for a composer. And,who knows,maybe things are finally going to start to look up again,for Henry Cowell. Maybe,in the next few months or years to come, this thread will reach 124 pages & every ticket for a Prom concert of a Cowell work will be sold within 24 hours,a double decker bus will get named after Henry Cowell,a famous rock band will start sponsoring recordings of his music,a range of designer clothes will be launched,a ship will be named after him,the first manned rocket ship to Mars will be named 'The Mars Henry Cowell Expedition' and I will change my name by deed poll to Henry Cowell only to discover, after a visit to a hypnotist,that I was William Havergal Brian in a former life!
Who knows?
I digress!
There we are,Henry Cowell DID get there first! On something,anyway. (He WAS a bit of a pioneer in SOME ways). Tone Clusters? I wonder if you can get copyright out on something like that? I don't expect so;but IF Cowell invented them,and he'd been able to copyright them,he could have probably made a heck of a lot of money out of the little blighters. In fact,every one who ever wanted to use them would have had to pay Henry a fee to use tone clusters.
There would have been allot of grumpy,hard up,Henry Cowell hating, composers!
Mind you,if you had to pay to use tone clusters would you really want to use them? If I was a composer and I wanted to use tone clusters & somebody wrote to me and said,'Sorry mate,but I own the copyright on those tone clusters',I'd probably only write compositions that didn't have any tone clusters.
But,that's just me!
The two Henry Cowell cds,ordered appropriately,from a US seller,finally arrived today (Naxox vol 2 & 'Dancing with Henry' Mode). My one man resuscitation of the extremely popular Henry Cowell thread continues with a vengeance!
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
Cowell didn't "invent" the note cluster of course.
For those who are interested, https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/handle/1887/15093 will reveal an excellent thesis on Extended Piano Techniques by Luk Vaes. Essential reading on such matters.
He invented short threads.
Thanks Dax!
Am listening to Symphony No 3 now - the best Cowell work I know. It's a bit like McPhee's 'Tabuh-Tabuhan' at the start and it has a lovely slow movement.
Quote from: vandermolen on September 16, 2011, 02:56:39 PM
Am listening to Symphony No 3 now - the best Cowell work I know. It's a bit like McPhee's 'Tabuh-Tabuhan' at the start and it has a lovely slow movement.
ahhhh,... that 'Pacific' sound? I'll check that out.
If this Cowell thread gets to Page 4 I'll eat my hat!
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 17, 2011, 01:49:33 PM
If this Cowell thread gets to Page 4 I'll eat my hat!
Henry Cowell is the only Western composer to have a symphony given its first performance in Madras.
Funnily enough it was his Symphony No. 13 which is titled "Madras" ;D ;D
There...I am keeping it going for you ;D ;) :D
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 17, 2011, 01:49:33 PM
If this Cowell thread gets to Page 4 I'll eat my hat!
OK. We got the message. You have a certain amount of scorn for the works of Henry Cowell.
I have to disagree. I
do regard him as a major composer and one of the least recognised of the 20th century. Amongst the huge amount that he wrote, I've not encountered much duff stuff either from his experimental or less experimental side.
Symphony no 13 "Madras" is on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjDR4hAETZg
as is an impressive late orchestral piece
Ongaku.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR4o1qfvDPs
Actually,no,if you look at my earlier posts & thank you for the links. I hope I DO have to eat my hat,but,hopefully,only metaphorically. It was purely a tongue in cheek reference to some of the earlier posts. In fact,I have just been enjoying the Mode cd 'Dancing with Henry',of which, 'Atlantis',the last item on the cd, is particularly entertaining. (In fact,I think I'll go and have another listen). It's nice to 'meet' a supporter'. In my view,any composer who seems to generate the flak Cowell does,must have something going for him.
Incidentally,I wish Botstein would make some 'physical' cds of Cowell,instead of just downloads,and that some of the deleted Cowell cds would be reissued. Hopefully,Mode and Naxos might continue their exploration of this intriguing,albeit sometimes,frustrating composer (and that's often the performances).
Again,thanks for the link & here's to Page 4!
(http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/474/51v7rdetilss400.jpg)
By dinasman (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/dinasman) at 2011-09-18
This is the reverse of the Mode 'Dancing with Henry' cd,giving all the track details. The front has a dancing lady on it! An enterprising label,I will have another look at their website after dinner.
(http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/8509/41bc5zwk4wlsl500aa300.jpg)
By dinasman (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/dinasman) at 2011-09-18
And here's another one I enjoyed. Although,only after I'd listened to it three or four times,then it,mysteriously,seemed to 'click,as these things sometimes do. The performances sound excellent (to me,anyway) and they are recorded in very good sound. The Mode cd is the one to start off with,though. Unfortunately,the earlier,2cd Mode set,has been deleted! :(
All this Harris talk made me troll the Amazon again. I think I'm going to go for the two cds of Symphonies, and the Music 1957/Synchrony. I think Dundonnell Posted about these earlier... will check.
Henry Cowell,another puzzle! ;D :o :) :( :-\
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 17, 2011, 01:49:33 PM
If this Cowell thread gets to Page 4 I'll eat my hat!
Maybe you can buy an edible one! :)
Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 05, 2012, 04:48:56 AM
Maybe you can buy an edible one! :)
Uh-oh! Well,spotted! Actually, I think they DID make some,once!
The ony one I've got at the moment is a rather chewy looking balaclava. (I always take it off before going into the bank!!!)
With a bit of luck,the moths will have got there first!
Quote from: snyprrr on March 07, 2011, 07:26:53 AM
I went through a Cowell discovery process. My BottomLine with Cowell is not that complimentary, but, within such a wide ranging WorksList, there will probably be something for everyone.
1) Piano Music: if you like Cage's Sonatas & Interludes, you'll like Cowell's playful experiments. One certainly cannot overlook Cowell's contribution to 20th Century Piano Music. There is also some Harpsichord Music. I'm not sure about guitar or harp, but I think Lou Harrison overshadows on both.
1A) Piano & Violin Music: I believe there are four pieces(?), including the Suite, the Sonata, a Hymn & Fuging Tune, and perhaps an Air (?). They are all on a 'Complete' cd.
1B)...Cello...: There is the early Sonata (which hasn't got all favorable reviews; I haven't heard it (they say it sounds juvenile)), and a few anniversary pieces, and a solo piece ('Vigorously & Gravely'). I believe all pieces are fairly available. There might be a DUO for violin & cello, but I can't think of why.
1C) Piano Trio: Koch has a cd of all PTs (plus other bits I believe), which I think amount to three(?).
2) String Quartets: Nos. 1-2 are in HC's ultra dissonant style. No.3 is a mixture, from the '30s. The most famous might be No.4, United, which i have not hear. No.5 is Late, and may be very conservative.
3) Chamber Music: regardless of the instrumentation, HC's music will either be in the ultra dissonant style, or the Late, much much more conservative, Style. There are Piano Trios, of which I like Four Combinations for (preferred version by hartley Trio). Fluffy trifles for cello and violin (Violin Sonata?) tend to be frivolous. Special mention should be made of the set of Hymn & Fuguing Tunes for different combinations of instruments, up to orchestra (I think).
3A)The Quartet Romantic is for 2 flutes and 2 strings. There's the 6 clarinet pieces. There's an oboe piece on a Crystal recital (is it the Hymn& Fuguing Tune, or something else?). There's probably a few other pieces for the other instruments, but I don't think we'll find much substance: at 700 pieces, there must be a lot of small stuff, no? The Woodwind Quintet is one such piece.
3A II) Brass Music: there's a Hymn & Fuguing Tunes for brass ensemble, and I believe one for three trombones.
3B) There's a harpsichord Quintet of the Naxos disc, and there's a harp Quintet on the Mode set.
There's the Set of Five, Persian Set, and Homage to Iran. I don't know how many ensemble works we get here in the trio-quintet-octet range, but the aren't many 'famous' things, so, maybe, if we just look at what's available, and have a Complete Works List, I'm sure we can fill in the blanks in our heads, no? We probably don't need to even scour too far. But there are the pieces Ensemble (including the 'Adagio' (with 'thunderstick')), Polyphonica, 36 Simultaneous Mosiacs, a few of the Hymn & Fuguing Tunes, and the other pieces mentioned previously. That sounds like the beginning of a portrait.
As a rule, HC's LateMusic is all very conservative and pretty, all written after his stint in jail. This can be slightly maddening. This music all sounds very much like Lou Harrison's more fluffy style (the two share more than their share of sounds).
I have a great Mode 2cd set called 'Mosaic', which includes a nice swathe of Chamber Music, in all his different styles. There is a Late harp quintet that is as light and gay as anything. This may be the best overall HC set out there.
3C) Percussion: HC also has a few percussion pieces from the dawn of that era, also. Pulse, Return
4) String Orchestra: the early Adagio is in the ultra dissonant style, but the Hymn&FuguingTunes are all light. I have Koch cds of really light, 'American' sounding 'melting pots' that really do nothing for me. There is also a CPO disc of the same material
5) Symphonies: what?,... we have 17? Perhaps vandermolen got one of the good ones (No.5). I've heard a few bits here and there, and I hear a lot of HC's conservative style. I still haven't heard a very good overview of these Works, and have pretty much given up here.
5A) Piano Concertos: There's a disc of about 4-5 different concertante works. I can't off hand think of ANY OTHER CONCERTOS; can you help me here?
5B) Other Orchestral Music: Music 1957, Synchrony, various orchestrated suites like the American Melting Pot, and so forth, and what seems like a bewildering array of pieces called Air (there's one for violin and one for sax).
There might be pieces called 'Chorale' or Fiddler's Jig, or all kinds of things like that.
6) Eclectic/Indigenous Music: the Iran and Persian musics are ok. The Japanese stuff,... eh. I just find this StoneAge,... so much more has been learned since the the advent of WorldMusic. One cannot discount HC, but I find him obsolete here. Harrison certainly took over here.
All I can say to any prospective Cowell seeker is: WatchOut!!,... there is a lot of research, but not that much reward, IMHO. The Mode set is my pick for a OneStop Cowell class. Perhaps those two Naxos discs will be enough.
I have two Koch discs (one has the Late Concerto Grosso, which sounds very Middle Ages to me), the Mode set, and some other, random, pieces (that Piano Trio, 4 Combinations, I like). I have, more than once, really tried,... TRIED to get to the bottom of Cowell, but I truly think his personal life overshadowed his talent. Whatever happened,... or,... whatever proclivities he might have had,... seem to me to have caused a reaction in his music. He just got so,... fake?,... writing all this 'pretty' music so as not to make any further waves? I don't know, but it sure seems as if that were the case. His LateMusic certainly has no testosterone. btw- he was quite the looker as a young man,... quite the typical gay WestCoast look as an elderly man. Perhaps he was just a Cat Lady in drag? I find Cowell a tragedy. :( Perhaps I've opined too much here,... I'm not seeking a gay debate, however interesting the 'manly' sounds of Ives and Ruggles might compare to the more 'feminine' sounds of Cowell, Harrison, etc.,... CRI certainly poisoned me against this whole topic, oy vey!! ::) ok, just disregard the last paragraph! ;D 8)
I added to this Post.
Cowell and Harris? I like that! ;D
Cowell's muse was certainly the more varied of the two. I can't see Harris contemplating A Persian Set,let alone a 'Homage to Iran! :o
In his worst nightmares,perhaps?!!!
A true patriot to the (very) bitter end!
JUST AN UPDATE. AT THE COWELL SITE )OOPS) there is a list that runs almost 1,000 pieces. I went through this thing, and, pretty much, MOST of the GOOD STUFF is available. I think, ultimately, Cowell may have up to three (maybe four) modes of operation, and we should probably stop worrying if there are a load of undiscovered masterpieces. As I said, if one cleaned out the Amazon, one would surely surely have a pretty exact portrait of HC. Perhaps there are some rarer expressions that one might find curious (Ballad for ww quintet; Gravely and vigorously for cello on JFK's assassination), but they're out there.
I just finally listened the the Suite and Sonata for violin and piano, and wow!, THERE was some 'classic' HC I'd not heard before. And the Set of Five is a nice proto pacificism.
And the Piano Concerto disc is on YT, and that too tickled my ear.
Now I really want to hear Symphony No.5, that vandermolen liked.
I'm starting to get a soft spot for ole Henry.
Quote from: snyprrr on March 01, 2012, 07:50:21 PM
JUST AN UPDATE. AT THE COWELL SITE )OOPS) there is a list that runs almost 1,000 pieces. I went through this thing, and, pretty much, MOST of the GOOD STUFF is available. I think, ultimately, Cowell may have up to three (maybe four) modes of operation, and we should probably stop worrying if there are a load of undiscovered masterpieces. As I said, if one cleaned out the Amazon, one would surely surely have a pretty exact portrait of HC. Perhaps there are some rarer expressions that one might find curious (Ballad for ww quintet; Gravely and vigorously for cello on JFK's assassination), but they're out there.
I just finally listened the the Suite and Sonata for violin and piano, and wow!, THERE was some 'classic' HC I'd not heard before. And the Set of Five is a nice proto pacificism.
And the Piano Concerto disc is on YT, and that too tickled my ear.
Now I really want to hear Symphony No.5, that vandermolen liked.
I'm starting to get a soft spot for ole Henry.
I was hoping someone would engage me here. :'(
Engage-D! :) I think I might have another crack at 'old Henry',soon! Whatever his faults,his output was,thankfully, more varied than Roy 'patriot' Harris's!
But then again,it would be very difficult NOT to be! :o
Have to 'dig them' out of that box first!
Anton Rubinsteins hyper experimental ;) 'Ocean' Symphony on,at the moment,in the 4 movement version. Henry would have grooved to that! :( :o
And I'm enjoying it! :-[
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 06, 2012, 06:04:55 AM
Engage-D! :) I think I might have another crack at 'old Henry',soon! Whatever his faults,his output was,thankfully, more varied than Roy 'patriot' Harris's!
But then again,it would be very difficult NOT to be! :o
Have to 'dig them' out of that box first!
Anton Rubinsteins hyper experimental ;) 'Ocean' Symphony on,at the moment,in the 4 movement version. Henry would have grooved to that! :( :o
And I'm enjoying it! :-[
I'm debating on wether to download that 1,000 piece catalog from the site.
Sorry, have to bump Cowell with Harris. It's the Law.
Quote from: snyprrr on March 06, 2012, 06:48:16 AM
I'm debating on wether to download that 1,000 piece catalog from the site.
Go on,download it. You know you WANT to! ;D
(http://imageshack.us/a/img832/1742/81ehuyp4fulaa1500.jpg)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img832/1742/81ehuyp4fulaa1500.jpg)
Well,well,well!! :o ;D A new Henry Cowell cd!! Just when I thought it might never happen!! And not only that,it's a "Premium audio hybrid SACD" with Michael Tilson Thomas conducting the San Francisco Symphony!! Of course,it isn't ONLY Henry Cowell,it's got,well,you can see above & it looks like an interesting selection. Maybe,I'll fork out for this one;although,unfortunately,with the wolf at the door,I might have to hold out a little longer! :(
So there we are,more Cowell!! Hopefully,there may be more in the offing! While I'll be the first to admit that Cowell isn't a regular visitor to my cd player & I think he really was a bit too experimental purely for the sake of being experimental,for his own good;I DO find his best music quite intriguing & even rewarding;and I think he does deserve a little bit more attention from the cd labels than he currently gets.Nuff said! ;D
Thanks for posting this, and glad they released it. If you're at all inclined, I suspect the recording will be excellent. I heard all of these last spring when MTT and the group came to Carnegie Hall, and the concerts are already showing up on some "Best of 2012" lists.
The Harrison is also quite marvelous. (I had never heard it before.)
--Bruce
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 12, 2012, 01:10:17 PM
(http://imageshack.us/a/img832/1742/81ehuyp4fulaa1500.jpg)
Well,well,well!! :o ;D A new Henry Cowell cd!! Just when I thought it might never happen!! And not only that,it's a "Premium audio hybrid SACD" with Michael Tilson Thomas conducting the San Francisco Symphony!! Of course,it isn't ONLY Henry Cowell,it's got,well,you can see above & it looks like an interesting selection. Maybe,I'll fork out for this one;although,unfortunately,with the wolf at the door,I might have to hold out a little longer! :(
So there we are,more Cowell!! Hopefully,there may be more in the offing! While I'll be the first to admit that Cowell isn't a regular visitor to my cd player & I think he really was a bit too experimental purely for the sake of being experimental,for his own good;I DO find his best music quite intriguing & even rewarding;and I think he does deserve a little bit more attention from the cd labels than he currently gets.Nuff said! ;D
I've seen this release before and heard it is excellent!
Quote from: snyprrr on March 01, 2012, 07:50:21 PM
JUST AN UPDATE. AT THE COWELL SITE )OOPS) there is a list that runs almost 1,000 pieces. I went through this thing, and, pretty much, MOST of the GOOD STUFF is available. I think, ultimately, Cowell may have up to three (maybe four) modes of operation, and we should probably stop worrying if there are a load of undiscovered masterpieces. As I said, if one cleaned out the Amazon, one would surely surely have a pretty exact portrait of HC. Perhaps there are some rarer expressions that one might find curious (Ballad for ww quintet; Gravely and vigorously for cello on JFK's assassination), but they're out there.
I just finally listened the the Suite and Sonata for violin and piano, and wow!, THERE was some 'classic' HC I'd not heard before. And the Set of Five is a nice proto pacificism.
And the Piano Concerto disc is on YT, and that too tickled my ear.
Now I really want to hear Symphony No.5, that vandermolen liked.
I'm starting to get a soft spot for ole Henry.
Did you get to hear Symphony No 5? I hope so.
I'm not expecting any hidden masterpieces quite franky! In fact I wouldn't describe anything I've heard by Cowell as a masterpiece. Intriguing at best. Pretentious at worst.He doesn't seem to have composed anything as arresting as Harris's third or,even,his Sixth;but his output is more varied. An interesting puzzle when you're in the right mood & then after a while you forget about him. It's still nice to see Tilson Thomas conducting his music in SACD sound.
It's on my shopping list,anyway (along with socks & shoe polish)! ;D
Quote from: vandermolen on December 14, 2012, 02:37:56 AM
Did you get to hear Symphony No 5? I hope so.
No. Those BayCities discs are hard to come by. :'( Also looking for Harris's Band Symphony.
Quote from: snyprrr on December 14, 2012, 08:59:23 AM
No. Those BayCities discs are hard to come by. :'( Also looking for Harris's Band Symphony.
Well, a lot of Cowell's Syms. are now on YT, and I spent the afternoon perusing. Aye, there's 16, right? Whew, there's a lot of stuff here, a lot of it sounding similar,... kind of like Ruggles-meets-Harris,... with some really cool experimental stuff thrown in.
No.14- a rehearsal recording, pretty bad, but the music is quite interesting,... must have a better recording...
No.11 '7 Rituals of Music'- this also had some interesting sounds and procedures...
No.7- can't remember, but seems to have interest...
There's a lot of the 'Hymn & Fuguing Tunes' in a lot of this, can't keep it straight,... 4... 9... were pretty Pastoral...
5 started off kind of clunky but settled into some cool things...
16 'Icelandic'... eh.... kind of ..... ....... .....
15 'Thesis'- a little noisier than it's neighbors....
I think Cowell is the next logical place to go after Harris... very similar "feelings"...
Quote from: snyprrr on September 28, 2015, 06:49:20 AM
Well, a lot of Cowell's Syms. are now on YT, and I spent the afternoon perusing. Aye, there's 16, right? Whew, there's a lot of stuff here, a lot of it sounding similar,... kind of like Ruggles-meets-Harris,... with some really cool experimental stuff thrown in.
No.14- a rehearsal recording, pretty bad, but the music is quite interesting,... must have a better recording...
No.11 '7 Rituals of Music'- this also had some interesting sounds and procedures...
No.7- can't remember, but seems to have interest...
There's a lot of the 'Hymn & Fuguing Tunes' in a lot of this, can't keep it straight,... 4... 9... were pretty Pastoral...
5 started off kind of clunky but settled into some cool things...
16 'Icelandic'... eh.... kind of ..... ....... .....
15 'Thesis'- a little noisier than it's neighbors....
I think Cowell is the next logical place to go after Harris... very similar "feelings"...
c'mon guys :(
I like No.5 very much on the Bay Cities CD.
I have begun to rather like some of Henry Cowell's music in recent months. My reappraisal of Cowell really began when I made a cd-r of the Louisville cd,which excluded the Hymn and Fuguing Tune No3. I was then able to listen to the other works on the cd,without the H.A.F.T 3,which I had felt was,by far,the least interesting. Suddenly,Henry Cowell was more enjoyable! I have since grown to really like the Symphony No11 "Seven Rituals of Music",with it's strangle clumping sounds. I also like Thesis,his Fifteenth. I like those eerie sounds and interesting string textures. I really do find them quite absorbing! I have also dowloaded Botstein's stereo recording of the Eleventh. I feel the old Louisville recording has more atmosphere,though. But the Botstein is still good! I also like Ongaku!!
Allot of the other symphonies are far more conventional,as far as I can make out;and I only have access to ancient old recordings. I quite like No's 4 & 5,though. Or,one or the other? I will put them on in a short while and have another listen. These are Cowell in a more folksy,pastoral vein,if I remember correctly? So far,I am not so keen on Symphonies 7 & 17. The sound doesn't help,mind. It's dire!! I also downloaded Botstein's recording of his Variations for Orchestra. I seem to remember thinking this was great;but I need to listen to it again!
I have the Mode cd's of his Chamber and instrumental music. This is where I think Cowell really excels (if he does,anywhere?). I find this side of his music very interesting. On the Mode cd,"Dancing with Henry",I particularly like his 1926 opus,Atlantis;which has the singers groaning and grunting (literally!) depictions of sea monsters and battles. It's hard not to laugh out loud! The instrumental accompaniment is equally fun and imaginative.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 10, 2017, 02:13:13 AM
We're in for the Long Game, here 8)
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Quite!! ::) ;D
It certainly would be nice with a more systematic CD series of his works, not at least regarding the orchestral music, rather than the scattered & rather meagre selection we have generally available ... sort of strange so little happens in that field ...
Quote from: Turner on April 11, 2017, 04:07:35 AM
It certainly would be nice with a more systematic CD series of his works, not at least regarding the orchestral music, rather than the scattered & rather meagre selection we have generally available ... sort of strange so little happens in that field ...
+ 1
I must admit,he's been a slow burner,for me. I think at first I though some of his music was quite interesting,or even intriguing;but not that good. But the more I've listened,when I've had time for his music,the more I've begun to like what I hear. It's also a question of sorting out the chaff from the wheat. Like Hovhaness,say,there's stuff that goes in one ear and out the other,or at best pleasant,but not exactly that interesting;and then there's the ones that really grab my attention. I'm even to start like the more folksy Symphonies like 4 & 5,now. There are some interesting sonorities there. Conversely,Symphonies No 7 and 17 have got me reaching for the stop button on the remote half way;and I'm not sure it's just the recording quality?!! (Maybe,a lousy performance?!!) Then there are Symphonies 11 and 15,which I find really absorbing,and in their own way,very original. To that,I could add the Variations for Orchestra and allot of the chamber and instrumental music. Yes..........maybe he is a genuinely unjustly neglected figure after all??!!
Someone seems to think so here?! :
https://www.gramophone.co.uk/blog/new-york-insider/the-revelation-of-henry-cowell (https://www.gramophone.co.uk/blog/new-york-insider/the-revelation-of-henry-cowell)
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 07, 2011, 04:48:08 AM
Hello everyone. Regarding the Persian set'. I have had this cd for some time. Cowells use of vocal contributions from the orchestra reminded me of the different but similairly colourful 'Eventyr' by Delius. There are some newer recordings of Cowell,conducted by Botstein,available on Amazon,(and maybe some other site),for download,which include his Second & eleventh symphonies & a deleted Koch cd,which includes some more symphonies. The sound quality on the latter seemed a bit 'thin' & this should be taken into account before downloading or buying. The Naxos cd's are Cowell in more experimental mode & I must admit to not being so keen on those. Cowell is very neglected at the moment & his interest in the the East makes him an interesting comparison to the better known Hovhaness. There also recordings of Cowell playing & announcing some of his piano music on another cd. Unfortunately Cowell doesn't have a cult following like Hovhaness,but in my opinion he is an intriguing figure who certainly deserves more exposure. No doubt some of the smaller & more adventurous record labels will reach him in the end.
Can't believe my first ever post on this forum was about Henry Cowell! :o I thought it would have been Havergal Brian! I am beginning to like Cowell's music more,though. In hindsight,however,
Persian Set is pleasant enough,but not him at his best. (The Koch cd got taken to a charity shop! ??? ;D).
This has got to be the earliest post stored here?!! :-\
Yes,I've grown to really like that one. In fact I love that one! :) I think my next favourite has to be No 15. You can download a new recording of Botstein conducting No 11 from Amazon;but I think the old Louisville recording has a bit more of that elusive quality called atmosphere. Some of the symphonies do seem forgettable,but I rather like No's 4 & 5. His chamber music is very intriguing. The Mode cds are well worth acquiring. I also like Atlantis,his Variations for Orchestra and Ongaku. Sort the chaff from the wheat (and there is allot of chaff) and I think Cowell is actually quite an interesting,and at times,rewarding composer.
Incidentally, I only really started enjoying the music on this cd after making a cd-r of it without Hymn and Fuguing Tune No 3!
(http://i.imgur.com/M6G8sAc.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/BHnLGOP.jpg)
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 11, 2017, 07:29:27 AM
(and there is allot of chaff)
wait... what? :laugh:
The wheat's good,though.....and very nourishing! :)
(http://i.imgur.com/Y9BX6hf.jpg)
I see you're point,though! ::) ;D
Ahem! Wheat from the chaff! :-[ ;D
These two cds are very good,imho. The music is well performed and recorded. Cowell's chamber music is intriguing and absorbing. I love the wacky Atlantis on Dancing with Henry,for small orchestra and voices. Lots of wordless grunting and moaning. Quite an extraordinary piece,and funny too! Must be fun to perform,too?! Mosaic is a 2 cd set.
(http://i.imgur.com/bt3HOU1.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/jmCnRsq.jpg)
NB: Actually,I like marmite on toast for breakfast. Can't stand cereal!! ??? :( ;D
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 11, 2017, 10:46:15 AM
Ahem! Wheat from the chaff! :-[ ;D
I like marmite
mm mm mm...not for me thank you :P gag lol
'Mosaic' is the single best Cowell presentation there is. I passed on the other one... I can't remember what else is on it...but I thought it was "normal" stuff found elsewhere?...
Oh, and the few Koch CDs... the 'Concerto Grosso' sounds very pastoral, as does the Harp Quartet on the Mode disc...
I'd really like to hear more of the 'ultra dissonant' phase @1917-1919... the CPO disc has some of that... the 'Adagio';;;
uh...
I'm afraid I just have to disagree with you,snyprrr ...............................over Marmite!! :P ;D
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 15, 2017, 01:49:01 PM
I'm afraid I just have to disagree with you,snyprrr ...............................over Marmite!! :P ;D
Well, you know what prince Charles used it for... ack!! :P
"Prince Charles' favourite sandwich is a bap (organic, of course) filled with a fried egg, Gruyere cheese and the famously salty brown goo".
I'm not exactly a fan of Prince Charles;but to be fair this sounds delicious! The nearest I get to this is a poached egg,on marmite on toast,for breakfast!
I remember inadvertantly starting a 'Marmite' thread at the Art Music Forum,after inadvertantly letting slip that I preferred Vegemite. Well,I did for a while!! ::)
By the way,I didn't know Marmite had been used as a baldness cure?!! ??? ::)
In keeping with the topic;I suppose one could say that Henry Cowell is a 'Marmite' composer?!! ::) :D
I thought that the rather unpopular (on this site anyway) HC deserved a bump-up (or to be awakened from hibernation). Today I have been greatly enjoying his 5th Symphony once again. Its opening rather reminded me of William Schuman's 'New England Triptych'. Douglas Moore's powerful and brooding 'In Memoriam' was a fine discovery and I have always enjoyed Dello Joio's 'Meditations on Ecclesiastes':
(//)
Yesterday, listened to Henry Cowell's String Quartet No. 5, which appears in the Philadelphia Woodwind Quintet box set even though it does not involve woodwinds. I was immediately taken with the soundworld he creates: based in American folk music, but sophisticated; modern harmonies, but with a clearness and transparency; structurally odd and episodic but pleasant.
I started reading up on Cowell elsewhere and learned about his eclectic interests, passion for different musical traditions, and seemingly agreeable approach to music (the notes to the string quartet include a quote that goes like, "I just wrote something I wanted to hear").
Today listening to lots more Cowell.
(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/vb/i1/usp23shb6i1vb_600.jpg)
Hymn and Fuguing Tune No. 3 is a total pleasure - maybe the hymn is not instantly memorable but what a charming concert opener. Ongaku is very different, a tribute to Japanese musical style that really does sound Japanese to my barely-trained ear. The thing that stands out about it is that Cowell modestly gives up Western musical conventions in service to the Japanese ones. There's no hidden sonata form or buildup to a "grand finale."
(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/ka/hp/y33u4h2qahpka_600.jpg)
The only previous Cowell listening I'd ever done is the 20-minute Variations for Orchestra on this CD. The theme is barely noticeable in most of the variations, but the orchestration is so colorful and entertaining that you don't miss it for a second. The piece moves like a dream, floating through fantasy worlds. Super cool.
I'm now going to go through all the 5 pages of this thread and read everything while listening to the album below. Looking forward to reading 8)
(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/4a/qi/nuwq2535aqi4a_600.jpg)
I do wish there were more Cowell-focused albums out there. His piano music seems well-covered but it's amazing that Naxos, for example, has not done a symphony series, only chamber music.
Quote from: Brian on November 01, 2023, 07:10:47 AMYesterday, listened to Henry Cowell's String Quartet No. 5, which appears in the Philadelphia Woodwind Quintet box set even though it does not involve woodwinds. I was immediately taken with the soundworld he creates: based in American folk music, but sophisticated; modern harmonies, but with a clearness and transparency; structurally odd and episodic but pleasant.
I started reading up on Cowell elsewhere and learned about his eclectic interests, passion for different musical traditions, and seemingly agreeable approach to music (the notes to the string quartet include a quote that goes like, "I just wrote something I wanted to hear").
Today listening to lots more Cowell.
(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/vb/i1/usp23shb6i1vb_600.jpg)
Hymn and Fuguing Tune No. 3 is a total pleasure - maybe the hymn is not instantly memorable but what a charming concert opener. Ongaku is very different, a tribute to Japanese musical style that really does sound Japanese to my barely-trained ear. The thing that stands out about it is that Cowell modestly gives up Western musical conventions in service to the Japanese ones. There's no hidden sonata form or buildup to a "grand finale."
(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/ka/hp/y33u4h2qahpka_600.jpg)
The only previous Cowell listening I'd ever done is the 20-minute Variations for Orchestra on this CD. The theme is barely noticeable in most of the variations, but the orchestration is so colorful and entertaining that you don't miss it for a second. The piece moves like a dream, floating through fantasy worlds. Super cool.
I'm now going to go through all the 5 pages of this thread and read everything while listening to the album below. Looking forward to reading 8)
(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/4a/qi/nuwq2535aqi4a_600.jpg)
I do wish there were more Cowell-focused albums out there. His piano music seems well-covered but it's amazing that Naxos, for example, has not done a symphony series, only chamber music.
I really like the 5th Symphony
The Fifth Symphony is not on streaming so I will have to check YouTube for it. I just listened to the Fourth...
(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/jb/79/njxpgdaiz79jb_600.jpg)
...and it is very "cute" American populist music coming from 19th century traditions, folk dances, religious hymns, etc. Not jazzy. Like a small, modest-sized midpoint between the more grandiose points of Ives' Symphony No. 2 and Copland's Americana.
I found a recording on Apple Music of the 7th Symphony conducted by William Strickland (with Vienna Philharmonic) which I am rather enjoying. I only know Henry Cowell from his association with Charles Ives in various biographies so this is very interesting!