GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Opera and Vocal => Topic started by: San Antone on March 25, 2015, 10:56:00 AM

Title: Lamentations
Post by: San Antone on March 25, 2015, 10:56:00 AM
The Lamentations of Jeremiah has been set for vocal ensemble over the centuries countless times.  This thread will be where members can post their favorite versions and especially works that may be lesser known or in some manner unique.

A related group of works, Tenebrae, sung during Easter Week can also be posted.

Lamentations is known to Jews as Eicha which is usually translated as “O how has” which is a cry of shock and grief.  Eicha is chanted every year on Tisha b’Av (the 9th of the Jewish month of Av) commemorating the destruction of the Beit HaMikdash (Temple in Jerusalem). 

There have been at least two fairly well known settings by Jewish composers, Ernst Krenek’s Lamentatio Jeremiæ Prophetæ (in Latin) and the 3rd movement of Leonard Bernstein’s Jeremiah Symphony (In Hebrew).

I hope to discover many more versions through your suggestions.
Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 25, 2015, 11:06:43 AM
There is Threni, of course . . . it's one of the odd casualties of the Naxos re-issue practice that Robt Craft's wonderful recording originally on Koch is not presently available.
Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 25, 2015, 11:09:23 AM
The Ginastera is lovely, if quite brief.

Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: San Antone on March 25, 2015, 11:11:22 AM
There is Threni, of course . . . it's one of the odd casualties of the Naxos re-issue practice that Robt Craft's wonderful recording originally on Koch is not presently available.

Wonderful late work.  Compared to most of his other works, this one does not seem to receive many recordings.  At least that is my impression.
Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: San Antone on March 25, 2015, 11:12:23 AM
The Ginastera is lovely, if quite brief.



This one I have not heard, but have heard of.  I will look for it on Spotify, if available there, and listen soon.
Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 25, 2015, 11:14:29 AM
Wonderful late work.  Compared to most of his other works, this one does not seem to receive many recordings.  At least that is my impression.

I only know of two, this one, and Igor's own.  It is a wonderful piece, and deserves better.  OTOH, Igor Fyodorovich is splendidly well represented in recordings, so . . . .

This one I have not heard, but have heard of.  I will look for it on Spotify, if available there, and listen soon.

Tangentially, the Schnittke is a fabulous work, too.
Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: Brewski on March 25, 2015, 11:20:33 AM
Though I am not familiar with many Lamentations settings, the Krenek is an austere, fantastic piece. I've been lucky to hear it live - which may never happen again, since it's extremely difficult to perform.

Will be interested in comments on works by other composers.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: San Antone on March 25, 2015, 11:27:10 AM
There are many from the 16th century, Victoria, Gesualdo, and possibly most famous of all, Thomas Tallis

Any preferred recordings?  The Tallis Scholars I think have done all three; their recording of the Tallis work is generally thought highly of.
Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: JCBuckley on March 25, 2015, 11:48:25 AM
I strongly recommend this:

Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: Drasko on March 25, 2015, 11:56:02 AM
Lecons de tenebres, Holly Week settings of Lamentationes of Jeremiah, were very popular in French baroque. Most often they were intimate chamber settings for few voices and basso continuo (but still with very virtuosic vocal writing) and best known (rightly) are by Delalande, Francois Couperin and Charpentier. There is one other I'd like to mention, bit different stylistically set for larger forces (but still intimate sounding), with simpler less florid vocal writing by Jean Gilles. Perhaps showing differences in taste and influences between province (Gilles) and capital (others). There was a lovely recording of Gilles by Herve Niquet/Le Concert Spirituel on Accord, not sure if it's still in print.   
Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: San Antone on March 25, 2015, 11:58:06 AM
Though I am not familiar with many Lamentations settings, the Krenek is an austere, fantastic piece. I've been lucky to hear it live - which may never happen again, since it's extremely difficult to perform.

Will be interested in comments on works by other composers.

--Bruce

Interesting that the two composers we've focused on so far have been Stravinsky and Krenek

When Stravinsky was looking around for information about serial/12-tone composing, one source he used more than others was Krenek's little book, Studies in Counterpoint.  Stravinsky was impressed with a technique Krenek used (mainly in the Lamentations) of rotating a the two hexachords of a series (61,52,43) and transposing the starting note to the same pitch degree.

For example if the first six notes of the series were C-D-E-F-G-A, the rotations would be

a-c-g-d-f-e
e-a-f-c-d-g
g-e-d-a-c-f
f-g-c-e-a-d
d-f-a-g-e-c

Bringing us back to where we started with
c-d-e-f-g-a

I am not sure if Stravinsky used this kind of thing in Threni, but he was influenced by Krenek's work, which was published shortly before Threni was begun.
Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: San Antone on March 25, 2015, 12:01:54 PM
I strongly recommend this:

I have recently been listening to this one:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/719ntWBOT9L._SY355_.jpg)

Which is very fine, but I haven't heard the one you suggested.  It would be nice to find it though.
Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: San Antone on March 25, 2015, 12:06:49 PM
Lecons de tenebres, Holly Week settings of Lamentationes of Jeremiah, were very popular in French baroque. Most often they were intimate chamber settings for few voices and basso continuo (but still with very virtuosic vocal writing) and best known (rightly) are by Delalande, Francois Couperin and Charpentier. There is one other I'd like to mention, bit different stylistically set for larger forces (but still intimate sounding), with simpler less florid vocal writing by Jean Gilles. Perhaps showing differences in taste and influences between province (Gilles) and capital (others). There was a lovely recording of Gilles by Herve Niquet/Le Concert Spirituel on Accord, not sure if it's still in print.

I have not heard the Jean Gilles work.  Is this the one you were thinking of?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51T8nP7ovAL._SX425_.jpg)

Over $60.00 at Amazon, so I will remain ignorant of it for the time being.

 ;)
Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: Drasko on March 25, 2015, 12:15:13 PM
I have not heard the Jean Gilles work.  Is this the one you were thinking of?

That's the one, but there is later re-issue that might be cheaper to find. This one:
http://www.amazon.de/Motets-Saint-Baptiste-Trois-Lamentations/dp/B00004XT1J

Also, Delalande disc JCBuckley mentioned exist as readily available reissue:
http://www.amazon.com/Lecons-Tenebres-M-Lalande/dp/B000NQDE86
Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: San Antone on March 25, 2015, 12:22:42 PM
That's the one, but there is later re-issue that might be cheaper to find. This one:
http://www.amazon.de/Motets-Saint-Baptiste-Trois-Lamentations/dp/B00004XT1J

Also, Delalande disc JCBuckley mentioned exist as readily available reissue:
http://www.amazon.com/Lecons-Tenebres-M-Lalande/dp/B000NQDE86

Thanks!
Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: EigenUser on March 25, 2015, 02:59:21 PM
Interesting that the two composers we've focused on so far have been Stravinsky and Krenek

When Stravinsky was looking around for information about serial/12-tone composing, one source he used more than others was Krenek's little book, Studies in Counterpoint.  Stravinsky was impressed with a technique Krenek used (mainly in the Lamentations) of rotating a the two hexachords of a series (61,52,43) and transposing the starting note to the same pitch degree.

For example if the first six notes of the series were C-D-E-F-G-A, the rotations would be

a-c-g-d-f-e
e-a-f-c-d-g
g-e-d-a-c-f
f-g-c-e-a-d
d-f-a-g-e-c

Bringing us back to where we started with
c-d-e-f-g-a

I am not sure if Stravinsky used this kind of thing in Threni, but he was influenced by Krenek's work, which was published shortly before Threni was begun.

Not really related to the thread, but this is what Boulez did in the 12 Notations (hence the reason that there are 12 pieces -- he uses a full 12-tone row and permutes them as you describe).
Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: San Antone on March 26, 2015, 06:24:44 PM
Vladimir Martynov's Lamentations of Jeremiah are an expression of despair over the destruction of Jerusalem, and presents a prayer of hope, the hope that despair will lead to construction and creation. The work was written for the Sirin Choir, conducted by Andrei Kotov, whose interpretation we hear on this recording.



Vladimir Martynov is also known as a serious ethnomusicologist, specializing in the music of the Caucasian peoples, Tajikistan, and other ethnic groups in Russia. He also studied medieval Russian and European music, as well as religious musical history and musicology. While even in Soviet times this field of study was considered generally acceptable, it also allowed him to study theology, religious philosophy and history. Vladimir Martynov began studying early Russian religious chant in the late 1970s; he also studied Renaissance music of such composers as Machaut, Gabrieli, Isaac, Dufay, and Dunstable, publishing editions of their music. He became interested in the brand of minimalism developing in the Soviet Union in the late 1970s: a static, spiritually-inspired style without the shimmering pulse of American minimalism. The timeless quality of chants and the lack of a sense of bar lines in Renaissance polyphony entered into his version of minimalism.
Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 27, 2015, 04:44:48 AM
Last night, and at last, I began to spend time with the de Victoria Lamentations (years ago, I had had the St Paul's Choir sing his lovely Pueri Hebræorum).  I see this CD in the set as saturation listening for the coming week.
Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: San Antone on March 27, 2015, 04:54:04 AM
Last night, and at last, I began to spend time with the de Victoria Lamentations (years ago, I had had the St Paul's Choir sing his lovely Pueri Hebræorum).  I see this CD in the set as saturation listening for the coming week.

Is it the St. Paul's Choir recording or another?
Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 27, 2015, 04:55:21 AM
Oh!  It's from the Ensemble Plus Ultra box:

Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 27, 2015, 04:57:00 AM
I may just possibly have a recording of our performance of Pueri Hebræorum . . . but I do not remember it being especially presentable . . . .
Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: San Antone on March 27, 2015, 05:01:20 AM
Oh!  It's from the Ensemble Plus Ultra box:



That is a great box.  My only complaint is the omission of the Requiem.  I have been enjoying this recent recording which couples the Victoria with Gesualdo.   Tenebrae is a good ensemble.

Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 27, 2015, 05:11:22 AM
That is a great box.  My only complaint is the omission of the Requiem.

Is the Requiem distinct from the Missa pro defunctis on disc 1?
Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: San Antone on March 27, 2015, 05:20:19 AM
Is the Requiem distinct from the Missa pro defunctis on disc 1?

He wrote two.  The one in this box is the earlier one for 4 voices from 1583.  Officium Defunctorum for 6 voices was written in 1603 and the one most people consider his best work.
Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 27, 2015, 05:21:27 AM
Thanks for the enlightenment.
Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: North Star on March 27, 2015, 05:46:48 AM
Thanks for the enlightenment.
+1, must investigate. Off to parents for Easter holidays now though, so I'll stick to Richafort and Herreweghe's Bach cantatas for now, among other things
Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: San Antone on March 27, 2015, 11:58:03 AM
Morales: Office des Ténèbres

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91VnTH-SOGL._SS500_.jpg)

Doulce Memorie is an excellent early music ensemble, and this recording is highly recommended.  Cristóbal de Morales (c. 1500 –  1553) was a Spanish composer of the Renaissance. He is generally considered to be the most influential Spanish composer before Victoria.
Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: aligreto on April 01, 2015, 12:52:34 PM
Currently listening to Nicolo Jommelli's Lamentazioni per il Mercoledi Santo....


(http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B000005GH8.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)


....this comes with a high recommendation for both content and performance.
Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: aligreto on April 02, 2015, 08:31:52 AM
F. Couperin: Lecons de Ténébres....


(http://rymimg.com/lk/f/l/432123d337d8ab98d6a3005d27654f19/4064156.jpg)
Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: aligreto on April 02, 2015, 11:35:07 AM
Delalande: Trois Lecons de Tenebres....


(http://pmcdn.priceminister.com/photo/michel-richard-delalande-trois-3-lecons-de-tenebres-pour-le-mercredy-le-jeudy-le-vendredy-saints-saincts-micaela-etcheverry-mezzo-soprano-laurence-boulay-orgue-et-clavecin-jean-louis-charbonnier-viole-de-gambe-972831432_ML.jpg)


This is a stunning work and I can only endorse the high recommendation from JCBuckley earlier.
Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: San Antone on April 02, 2015, 11:53:19 AM
Delalande: Trois Lecons de Tenebres....


(http://pmcdn.priceminister.com/photo/michel-richard-delalande-trois-3-lecons-de-tenebres-pour-le-mercredy-le-jeudy-le-vendredy-saints-saincts-micaela-etcheverry-mezzo-soprano-laurence-boulay-orgue-et-clavecin-jean-louis-charbonnier-viole-de-gambe-972831432_ML.jpg)


This is a stunning work and I can only endorse the high recommendation from JCBuckley earlier.

thanks in general for your several posts - very good info.  The De Lalande Tenebres is excellent.  I know it from this recording:

Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: aligreto on April 02, 2015, 11:56:39 AM
thanks in general for your several posts - very good info.  The De Lalande Tenebres is excellent....


You are most welcome. This is a very good idea for a thread.
Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: aligreto on April 02, 2015, 12:41:06 PM
Zelenka: The Lamentations of Jeremiah....


(http://boxset.ru/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/zelenka_lamentations.jpg)



....Lamentations for Maundy Thursday.
Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: aligreto on April 03, 2015, 04:04:24 AM
Gesualdo: Tenebrae Responsories for Good Friday....


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61ziD9TEH-L._SX300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: aligreto on April 03, 2015, 04:20:11 AM
Victoria: Tenebrae Responsories [performed by The Sixteen]....


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61m7ZEwEsaL._SX355_.jpg)


....currently listening to Responsories for Good Friday.
Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: Que on October 29, 2017, 12:55:41 AM
This would be a worthy adition to any collection of lamentations:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81gp42QBceL._SS500_.jpg)

Another winner by the Egidius Kwartet as far as I'm concerned. But I've become somewhat of a fan of this Dutch group.... :)
Half of the disc is filled with Lassus, the other half by (other) Franco-Flemish composers  Alexander Agricola and Jacob Arcadelt. The single piece of four minutes by Christobal de Morales is the odd one out.I would have preferred a complete recording of the Lassus, since performances are exemplary, and another full disc with lesser known composers.
But with performances of this quality we can't complain.  :) And who knows, perhaps the Egidius will do a complete Lassus in the future.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2008/May08/Lamentatio_ktc1343.htm

Q
Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: San Antone on October 29, 2017, 01:27:23 AM
This would be a worthy adition to any collection of lamentations:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81gp42QBceL._SS500_.jpg)

Another winner by the Egidius Kwartet as far as I'm concerned. But I've become somewhat of a fan of this Dutch group.... :)
Half of the disc is filled with Lassus, the other half by (other) Franco-Flemish composers  Alexander Agricola and Jacob Arcadelt. The single piece of four minutes by Christobal de Morales is the odd one out.I would have preferred a complete recording of the Lassus, since performances are exemplary, and another full disc with lesser known composers.
But with performances of this quality we can't complain.  :) And who knows, perhaps the Egidius will do a complete Lassus in the future.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2008/May08/Lamentatio_ktc1343.htm

Q

Listening to it now - wonderful.  Thanks for posting it.
Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: Biffo on October 29, 2017, 01:59:28 AM
Top choice for the Tenebrae Responsories is Victoria in the recording from Westminster Cathedral Choir directed by David Hill. I have a set from La Colombina and Schola Antiqua of the Victoria's Officium Hebdomadae Sacrae complete; this has the music for Palm Sunday, the Responsories and Lamentations, including those set as plainsong, antiphons and other prayers - it is an interesting set but not as directly involving as the polyphonic Responsories or Lamentations by themselves.

I have so many sets of Lamentations that I find it hard to make a choice though I probably listen to Tallis most often.
Title: Lamentations tread that were outstanding release so far 4 die hard fan of genre
Post by: deprofundis on July 18, 2020, 03:42:50 PM
Ok this Tread real serious, I'm not fooling around , Laments are one of my favorite vocal music genre so far.

So here a list of what I consider the utter best Lamentations release before and after , Mandryka my old friend I miss you buddy please collaborated you're always welcome of my post  8)

Who a devoted fan of this particular genre, the Laments, I tell you what , perhaps Lamentations and Motets I am a wash up fan boy I like them all, here are gems of this  type of music CD album wise and LP trust me you need these if you enjoy laments, please buy these release has they are outstanding!!!
LP- Lassus Lamentations of Jeremiah concert hall society this is my oldest vinyl, and a very special sacred Holy grail that also featured work on b-side of Josquin this release is timeless, you don't know how much I like  this chunk-o vinyl, it's incredible well master for it's era mine like mint, yep trust me this LP is money in the banks.

LP- Roland De Lassus  Lamentations De Job double LP on Harmonia Mundi trust me this is huge , I tell ya, epic work!!!

LP- Robert White Lamentations (Caliope) I happen to have the Japanese edition worth more, a treasure, Robert White is mezmerising brilliant!!!

Than in CD

-Capella de Minister Morales super Lamentations on a Fancy Spanish label, this is one of the best set of Laments I have heard so far a new release of 2020 and a keeper, you will love this album it's truely blown my mind, I would listen to it often.

But wait there another new release of Morales on Lauda (spanish Label) Lamentabatur Jacob that is just as good as the afford mention Morales Releases, you need both, in all honesty!!!!!

Jachet de Mantoue, Lamentations de Jéremie on Caliope now Bayard disques, this is so awesome it defy my expectation of the term surreal, mere word even of shakespeare vocabulary  does not render justice to this fantastic album it's just that great Jachet the Mantoue ensemble is a force of nature to reckon whit! but there gone  :'(

Than there is another new release fairly new last year Francisco de  Penalosa by the ravishing smart ensemble new york polyphony one of the newer ensemble but so darn talented this ensemble does wonder.

Palestrina's lamentation of Jacob by pro Cantiones Antiqua Brilliant Classical, has done a box-set, sensational & magical of this  composer the CD sleeves or fabulous the album are to die for.

Lamentations From renaissance by the might  & splendor of Paul van Nevel (love you sir Nevel you're such a skillful master (one of the sharpest knife in the drawer).

Lamentations by the one of my top 10 ensemble if not top 5 Nordic Voice featured the essence of Lamentations from Gesualdo, White, Palestrina, Victoria, you need this album, run to you're nearest CD store or distro and order this because this is RAD in caps lock...

Newbies this is so far my best Lamentations releases ever!!!! king of king's release.

How about this post full of Joy and sunny, do you like  post like this please comment please and participate, I,m not the great  satan , the wicked one , I'm not the one  they think I am , I'm a rocket man (Elton John). Nope I'm deprofundis a distinguished menbers of appreciation of early classical music, you should trust me on this?





Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: Que on March 24, 2021, 04:03:41 AM
Crossposting from the WAYLT thread:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81NjthvZL3L._SS500_.jpg)

This is one of the beautiful Palestrina recordings I've discovered over the past year.
Palestrina wrote quite some lamentations, of which only a single set for four voices was ever published.
The rest was preserved in a number of codices, and were later divided into "books" after the codices they originate from.
Here is a selection from the "3rd book", the lamentations from the Lateran Codex.

Cinquecento recently did a recording from/of the 2nd book (but I haven't heard it yet):

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/8178RrjewyL._AC_SX522_.jpg)
Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: Que on March 26, 2021, 11:38:20 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61fsrlBzh8L.jpg)

Constanzo Festa (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costanzo_Festa) (1485 - 1545) was the first major native Italian polyphonist after the domination of composers from the Netherlands in Italy and combined both styles. Despite the fact that a substantial amount of his music is preserved, recordings seem very thin on the ground. Paul van Nevel did a disc of choral music, included in the "Secret Labyrinth" box, and an instrumental one. Festa is said to be the beacon for his successors, notably Palestrina.

This is the only complete recording of the Lamentations, and despite some minor reservations I think we are lucky to have it.
The 11 male members of the French ensemble Scandicus give a dedicated, small and intimate  performance. The sound the ensemble is on the smoother and mellow side. It could more edgy, but it is beautifully done - intimate and touching. The music itself is pretty, though perhaps not breathtaking. Scandicus keep these predominantly homophonic works sufficiently transparent.Though this would be a perfect piece for Cinquecento to record!
Title: Re: Lamentations
Post by: Que on March 28, 2021, 02:55:23 AM
Crossposting from the WAYLT thread:

Lamentations by Cristóbal de Morales:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61oBfE90S0L._SS500_.jpg)

https://capelladeministrers.com/en/discografia-en/cd/super-lamentationes.html

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2020/May/Morales_lamentations_CDM2048.htm

A gorgeous recording. Can't say I am overall always a fan of Carles Magraner: eccentric and often with over-the-top instrumental accompaniments. But he hit the jackpot here. There is instrumental colla-parte accompaniment, by five viols (vihuelas de arco) and lute. But it is fortunately tastefully done and to subtle effect. Magraner used 6 singers, I suspects he doubles the tenors in the pieces for 4 of 5 voices.

A valuable addition to the repertoire of lamentations!  :)