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The Music Room => Great Recordings and Reviews => Topic started by: karlhenning on April 25, 2007, 12:02:09 PM

Title: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on April 25, 2007, 12:02:09 PM
What do you feel are the strengths or weaknesses of the following sets, in particular? —

Barshai

Gergiev (a partial set, right? 'The War Symphonies')

Haitink

Jansons

Maksim Dmitriyevich

Thank you all!

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on April 25, 2007, 04:17:07 PM

Jansons (https://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=10434) and  Barshai (https://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=4581) are the two that I am most interested in.

I hope to hear from folks who have heard both.  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on April 25, 2007, 04:19:06 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 25, 2007, 12:02:09 PM
What do you feel are the strengths of weaknesses of the following sets, in particular? —

Barshai


Strength: entire set costs about the same as a SINGLE CD from Hyperion !
Weakness: None whatsover.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on April 25, 2007, 04:24:26 PM

What about  Kondrashin (http://www.amazon.com/Shostakovich-Symphonies-Kirill-Kondrashin-Set/dp/B00094H7KS/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1177546967&sr=8-1)?

I've heard good things.

Here's a review (http://www.musicweb.uk.net/classrev/2004/Aug04/Shostakovich_Kondrashin.htm), including mention of some of the others in the comcluding paragraphs.

...and another review (http://www.siue.edu/~aho/musov/kondrashin/kondradisc.html) of the same set.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Don on April 25, 2007, 04:41:39 PM
Quote from: George on April 25, 2007, 04:24:26 PM
What about  Kondrashin (http://www.amazon.com/Shostakovich-Symphonies-Kirill-Kondrashin-Set/dp/B00094H7KS/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1177546967&sr=8-1)?

I've heard good things.

Here's a review (http://www.musicweb.uk.net/classrev/2004/Aug04/Shostakovich_Kondrashin.htm), including mention of some of the others in the comcluding paragraphs.

Kondrashin's set is the most compelling and primitive set I've heard.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on April 25, 2007, 04:52:06 PM
Quote from: Don on April 25, 2007, 04:41:39 PM
Kondrashin's set is the most compelling and primitive set I've heard.

I have heard some of his work with other composers, but not with DSCH.

Do you have the Aulos issue?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on April 25, 2007, 05:03:22 PM
Quote from: George on April 25, 2007, 04:17:07 PM
Jansons (https://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=10434) and  Barshai (https://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=4581) are the two that I am most interested in.

I hope to hear from folks who have heard both.  :)

Having recently gone through the heap of Shostakovich Boxed Sets, I will immediately reccomend the Jansons. This set is especially critical for the early symphonies, especially #2, which is utterly fantastic. Jansons is polished, without being distant. This is a consistently conservative set, and it shows in the ater symphonies. The Barshai, simply due to the low price, is really a must buy as well. I found his performance of #15 to be considerably more dynamic and energetic, compared to the stately recordings of Jansons in these later symphonies. I purchased them both, and reccomend that you do the same.  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 25, 2007, 05:15:36 PM
Karl - thanks for starting this thread -  :)  I'm in the 'market' for a complete Shosty symphony set - currently own about 2/3 of his symphonic output performed by various conductors, including Haitink in Nos. 5/9 (really enjoy); but, I can't make any comments on the others, although Barshai seems to be mentioned often - looking forward to the upcoming posts -  :D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on April 25, 2007, 05:28:08 PM
Quote from: Steve on April 25, 2007, 05:03:22 PM
Having recently gone through the heap of Shostakovich Boxed Sets, I will immediately reccomend the Jansons. This set is especially critical for the early symphonies, especially #2, which is utterly fantastic. Jansons is polished, without being distant. This is a consistently conservative set, and it shows in the ater symphonies. The Barshai, simply due to the low price, is really a must buy as well. I found his performance of #15 to be considerably more dynamic and energetic, compared to the stately recordings of Jansons in these later symphonies. I purchased them both, and reccomend that you do the same.  :)

Well you certainly don't make my decision any easier!  :P

Seriously though, I really am excited about the Kondrashin.

I have all 15 already, with various conductors, so I probably will wait.

I have dug too deep into my check protect these past weeks, so must restrain myself.  :(   
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on April 25, 2007, 05:46:51 PM
Quote from: George on April 25, 2007, 05:28:08 PM
Well you certainly don't make my decision any easier!  :P

Seriously though, I really am excited about the Kondrashin.

I have all 15 already, with various conductors, so I probably will wait.

I have dug too deep into my check protect these past weeks, so must restrain myself.  :(  

If your resolved to purchase the Kondrashin, and can only have one of those two other sets, I'd go with the Jansons. You will get an unrestrained energetic performance to complement the more conservative Jansons.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on April 25, 2007, 05:56:43 PM
Quote from: Steve on April 25, 2007, 05:46:51 PM
If your resolved to purchase the Kondrashin, and can only have one of those two other sets, I'd go with the Jansons. You will get an unrestrained energetic performance to complement the more conservative Jansons.

So is Barshai somewhere between the extrovert Kondrashin and Conservative Jansons? If so, is he more on one side than the other?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on April 25, 2007, 06:05:24 PM
Quote from: George on April 25, 2007, 05:56:43 PM
So is Barshai somewhere between the extrovert Kondrashin and Conservative Jansons? If so, is he more on one side than the other?

On the earlier works, he stays closer to the conservative Jansens, but on the later symphonies- particularily 13-15, he is more experimental, unrestrained, and deliberate. I recently purchased the Kondrashin to contrast sharply with my Jansons, and I can say the final symphonies are remarkable. Much livier, raw, and simply more powerful. Of these three sets, I would say that Jansons is simply indispensible for the first 10 or so, while you really need one of the Kondrashin/Barshai for the later symphonies. Here it really depends, on your preference. You may find the Kondrashin too radical for your liking, and prefer a vivid, but more restrained performance. From what I've heard, coupled with your excitement for the Kondrashin, (yes I read that favourable review), I would say go for the Jansons/Konrashin.

But do not let yourself be without the Jansons. I rarely listened to the second symphony in the past, but now, it rarely leaves my desk. This is a must buy  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 25, 2007, 06:09:25 PM
Quote from: George on April 25, 2007, 05:56:43 PM
So is Barshai somewhere between the extrovert Kondrashin and Conservative Jansons? If so, is he more on one side than the other?

George - I feel your PAIN -  ;D  I've held off on the Barshai for a long time, waiting for other recommendations - like Jansons, so 'what' to choose; plus, are there others?  Dave  ;) :D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on April 25, 2007, 06:11:31 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 25, 2007, 06:09:25 PM
George - I feel your PAIN -  ;D  I've held off on the Barshai for a long time, waiting for other recommendations - like Jansons, so 'what' to choose; plus, are there others?  Dave  ;) :D

A tough decision, indeed. I've already purchased Three Sets (Kondrashin, Jansons, and Barshai), and there are still sets that are tempting me.  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on April 25, 2007, 06:14:06 PM

Just dug up another review (http://www.siue.edu/~aho/musov/kondrashin/kondradisc.html) of the Kondrashin set.

And for those who want to sample the entire set, start to finish, visit RussianDVD.com. I am listening to the finale of the 5th as I type.

Russian DVD has a great price, too. $79.99.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on April 25, 2007, 06:15:33 PM
Quote from: Steve on April 25, 2007, 06:05:24 PM
But do not let yourself be without the Jansons. I rarely listened to the second symphony in the past, but now, it rarely leaves my desk. This is a must buy  :)

Thanks for the info!

As long as his conservatism doesn't go as far as Haitink's does, I think that I'll be happy with it.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 25, 2007, 06:22:40 PM
Quote from: Steve on April 25, 2007, 06:11:31 PM
A tough decision, indeed. I've already purchased Three Sets (Kondrashin, Jansons, and Barshai), and there are still sets that are tempting me.  :)

Steve - OK, I was about to 'buy into' the Barshai set in the past, now the Jansons recordings interest me - both received 4+* on Amazon, and are about $50 or so on their Market Place, so cost not an issue.  I own Jansons in other recordings - so, would Jansons be a good 'first' choice in these works?  Thanks - Dave  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on April 25, 2007, 06:28:06 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 25, 2007, 06:22:40 PM
Steve - OK, I was about to 'buy into' the Barshai set in the past, now the Jansons recordings interest me - both received 4+* on Amazon, and are about $50 or so on their Market Place, so cost not an issue.  I own Jansons in other recordings - so, would Jansons be a good 'first' choice in these works?  Thanks - Dave  :)

Sorry to butt in, but...

That depends how you like your Shostakovich, Kondrashin is more extrovert, in your face, and Jansons seems to occupy a "middle ground" between Kondrashin and the much more conservative Haitink.

From Classics today:

Jansons maintains a high standard of excellence from the first recording (Symphony No. 7) to the last with his lean, taut approach that emphasizes musical values as well as emotional impact. This is the middle ground between the sheer hysteria evoked by Kondrashin and Mravinsky and the dark warmth found in Haitink's Concertgebouw Orchestra recordings. But Jansons' readings are compelling in their own right, reaching a level of intensity that is often gripping.

Barshai's powerful, idiomatic, and impressively single-minded set is still the one to beat, but Jansons' highly accomplished cycle is a compelling alternative, especially now at bargain price.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on April 25, 2007, 06:38:15 PM


Music Web review of the Barshai set (http://www.musicweb.uk.net/classrev/2002/July02/Shostakovich_Barshai.htm)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Bogey on April 25, 2007, 06:38:45 PM
Quote from: George on April 25, 2007, 06:28:06 PM
Sorry to butt in, but...

That depends how you like your Shostakovich, Kondrashin is more extrovert, in your face, and Jansons seems to occupy a "middle ground" between Kondrashin and the much more conservative Haitink.

From Classics today:

Jansons maintains a high standard of excellence from the first recording (Symphony No. 7) to the last with his lean, taut approach that emphasizes musical values as well as emotional impact. This is the middle ground between the sheer hysteria evoked by Kondrashin and Mravinsky and the dark warmth found in Haitink's Concertgebouw Orchestra recordings. But Jansons' readings are compelling in their own right, reaching a level of intensity that is often gripping.

Barshai's powerful, idiomatic, and impressively single-minded set is still the one to beat, but Jansons' highly accomplished cycle is a compelling alternative, especially now at bargain price.

I have not finished Haitink's cycle (only have four of them), but his will be my direction over the next few years.  Thanks for the review George.  I thought I was missing something, but Haitink seems to be the perfect fit for me based on your post.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on April 25, 2007, 06:41:43 PM
Quote from: Bill on April 25, 2007, 06:38:45 PM
I have not finished Haitink's cycle (only have four of them), but his will be my direction over the next few years.  Thanks for the review George.  I thought I was missing something, but Haitink seems to be the perfect fit for me based on your post.

Yeah, I have noticed that with this composers works that there are very different interpretations. Some are much better suited to my taste, so I know what you mean.   
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: DavidW on April 25, 2007, 07:10:46 PM
The only thing I can add to this discussion is that outside the box Mravinsky is worth hearing.

Karl, have you heard Mravinsky in Shostakovich?  If so, did you like his style of conducting?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on April 25, 2007, 08:45:27 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 25, 2007, 06:22:40 PM
Steve - OK, I was about to 'buy into' the Barshai set in the past, now the Jansons recordings interest me - both received 4+* on Amazon, and are about $50 or so on their Market Place, so cost not an issue.  I own Jansons in other recordings - so, would Jansons be a good 'first' choice in these works?  Thanks - Dave  :)

Quite frankly either set could serve as a 'first' choice, but if I had to pick between the two, I would go with the Jansons. While I enjoy the raw power of the Barshai in the later symphonies- the Jansons really is a first-rate set from start to finish. For the early symphonies, (especially 2, 3, 6) , I simply cannot overstate the stirring effect of listening to the Jansons rendition. Listening to Jansons really opened my eyes to the beauty of some of the lesser known symphonies. Jansons intimate orchestration, really helped me expand my appreciation for these works. For a single set, Jansons simply can't be beat. In the future, picking up a more charged performance like Mravinsky or Haitnik might be a wonderful contrast, but I can't think of a more complete package than the Jansons. I simply cannot say enough about it.

Hope this helps.  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 25, 2007, 09:14:14 PM
Rather than write anew about Barshai, Jansons, and Haitink, I ask pardons for a cut & paste job from the old board:


Haitink is the the strictest of the three. He keeps a very watchful eye on the musical line and allows nothing of an exaggerated nature to get by. He's content with making his musical points from the inside-out and substitites fireworks for a strong sense of architecture...as well as providing a level of refinement that's second to none. I wouldn't say his approach is 'deliberate' for that connotes 'yawnsville'. No, the guiding hand that is Haitink is too imaginative for that. But it takes patience. It's not Shostakovich with the burners on, here. It must unfold at a decent pace or the effect is nil.

As far as Jansons he sees things through a more dynamically diverse lens than Haitink. More kaleidoscopic and rhythmically contrasting. More, well, "elbow room" to his approach. Refinement, as such, is less prominent. But nothing is left to chance and everyting sounds beautifully thought-out.

Barshai has bits of both approaches in his renditions. Greater dynamics and bolder than either yet all the while keeping everything tucked and organized with a fine muscular grip. Contrasts swing wide and sound more, well, "Russian" yet transparency is an essential ingredient in his approach. We can see straight through Shostakovich's complex and multi-layered textures and are granted an 'insiders' view of the workings. It's a thrill.

But which to choose? Well, I'd hate to be without any of the three (though I still lack a few of Haitink's). None seem to have a price advantage though Barshai used to be THE super-budget buy. Apparently that isn't the case anymore.



Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Don on April 25, 2007, 09:19:15 PM
Quote from: George on April 25, 2007, 04:52:06 PM
I have heard some of his work with other composers, but not with DSCH.

Do you have the Aulos issue?

Yes.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 25, 2007, 09:45:25 PM
As far as Gergiev, I have his 4, 5, 7, & 9 and enjoy his undeniable sense of commitment. To my ears he's cut from the same "urgent" cloth as some of the other Russians but with a level of refinement and understatement that is most becoming of Shostakovich's soundworld.

Plenty of color, too.

Drawbacks? Some people lament the sound on one or two of the recordings but I've never found reason for complaint.


Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Danny on April 25, 2007, 11:16:02 PM
The Haitnik set just arrived; will let you know what I think! :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: david johnson on April 26, 2007, 01:06:44 AM
go barshai for a box and supplement w/various single performances.

dj
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: alkan on April 26, 2007, 02:50:08 AM
Just a mention for the Sanderling set.      This is not complete   (1, 5, 6, 8, 10 and 15 only), but I found it to be an amazing experience.   Sanderling knew the composer closely and lived through the same era in Russia.       The readings are generally quite sombre and in some cases quite the opposite of "traditional" readings.     The most spectacular examples are the finale of the 5th  (starts fast, but the end is grotesquely slow, powerful, artificial and despairing ...... quite shattering compared to, say, Kondrashin) and the first movement of the 15th (not a hilarious pastiche of musical quotations ..... Shostakovich said to imagine a toy shop, but Sanderling imagines it to be filled with dead puppets being jerked around ..... it is quite macabre) and the end of the 15th  (an image of life (Shostakovich's) slowly expiring in a hospital ..... the percussion represents life-support machines .... a horrible image).

I know it all sounds quite macabre, but I believe that Sanderling got closer to the real Shostakovich than any conductor.   

Outside of this, my highlights are Kondrashin in the 8th (the second allegro is awesome ..... at the climax the tom-tom pounds away monstrously like a gigantic machine running out of control ..... I have never heard this in other recordings ... even Sanderling),
and Kondrashin in the 4th ..... a fantastic version, although the sound shows its age.         
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Harry on April 26, 2007, 03:01:50 AM
Barshai is for me the set!
And plenty of sets to complement it. :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on April 26, 2007, 04:40:08 AM
Quote from: Harry on April 26, 2007, 03:01:50 AM
Barshai is for me the set!
And plenty of sets to complement it. :)

Harry, have you heard the Jansons? I, too enjoyed the Barshai, but with the Jansons you get a first rate orchestra and significantly better sound quality.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Harry on April 26, 2007, 04:49:53 AM
Quote from: Steve on April 26, 2007, 04:40:08 AM
Harry, have you heard the Jansons? I, too enjoyed the Barshai, but with the Jansons you get a first rate orchestra and significantly better sound quality.

The Jansons is a fine set overall, no doubt about that my friend.
That said, the orchestra Barshai works with is a excellent one, and the sound is very good too, so I have no complains there, furthermore the way Barshai handles the music, his lucidness, and firm tight lines brings a openness to the music, that allows me to dive deeper into the emotional side of Shostakovich. Second on my list is Haitink, before Jansons, for Haitink brings saneness into the sometimes hectic music, and finds rest in places that appeal hugely to me. Thirdly comes Klaus Tenstedt, for the fire and passion, and the logical approach.
So better sound quality with Jansons as with Barshai?, well not for me. :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on April 26, 2007, 04:54:43 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 25, 2007, 04:19:06 PM
Strength: entire set costs about the same as a SINGLE CD from Hyperion !
Weakness: None whatsover.

Nah, the clarinetist of the WDR Symphony isn't quite clean in the hot solo which opens the Presto third movement.  The point could be debated, but I'd call that a weakness rather than a fine point.  YMMV, of course.

Mind you, I do not know the entire set, and there is a lot of good stuff in what I have heard in the set.  And one might well feel that the price justifies such weaknesses as there may be.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on April 26, 2007, 04:59:50 AM
Quote from: Harry on April 26, 2007, 04:49:53 AM
The Jansons is a fine set overall, no doubt about that my friend.
That said, the orchestra Barshai works with is a excellent one, and the sound is very good too, so I have no complains there, furthermore the way Barshai handles the music, his lucidness, and firm tight lines brings a openness to the music, that allows me to dive deeper into the emotional side of Shostakovich. Second on my list is Haitink, before Jansons, for Haitink brings saneness into the sometimes hectic music, and finds rest in places that appeal hugely to me. Thirdly comes Klaus Tenstedt, for the fire and passion, and the logical approach.
So better sound quality with Jansons as with Barshai?, well not for me. :)

Still, its nice to have the BPO backing any recording  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Harry on April 26, 2007, 05:14:44 AM
Quote from: Steve on April 26, 2007, 04:59:50 AM
Still, its nice to have the BPO backing any recording  :)

Of course it is Steve! :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on April 26, 2007, 05:15:34 AM
Quote from: donwyn on April 25, 2007, 09:14:14 PM
Haitink is the the strictest of the three. He keeps a very watchful eye on the musical line and allows nothing of an exaggerated nature to get by. He's content with making his musical points from the inside-out and substitites fireworks for a strong sense of architecture...as well as providing a level of refinement that's second to none. I wouldn't say his approach is 'deliberate' for that connotes 'yawnsville'. No, the guiding hand that is Haitink is too imaginative for that. But it takes patience. It's not Shostakovich with the burners on, here. It must be allowed unfold at a decent pace or the effect is nil.

I'd like to add the odd comment.  I think actually that Haitink's architecture works splendidly in (say) the Seventh and Eighth, particularly.  The first movement of the Seventh is tough to carry off, and if Haitink does not quite achieve the brillance of either Ančerl (in the celebrated mono recording) or of the Gergiev/Mariinka performance I heard live in Worcester, Mass, Haitink's is nonetheless a high success.  Haitink's Eighth I'd call roughly on par with the Jansons (with the Pittsburgh Symphony).  I've not heard strings sound as good in the Fourteenth as the Concertgebouw in the HaitinkHaitink's Thirteenth is overall a marvelous job.

Quote from: donwynAs far as Jansons he sees things through a more dynamically diverse lens than Haitink. More kaleidoscopic and rhythmically contrasting. More, well, "elbow room" to his approach. Refinement, as such, is less prominent. But nothing is left to chance and everyting sounds beautifully thought-out.

That is certainly the case of those few Jansons recordings I've heard: the Eighth, and a particularly outstanding Tenth and Fifteenth.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on April 26, 2007, 05:17:20 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 26, 2007, 05:15:34 AM
I?d like to add the odd comment.  I think actually that Haitink?s architecture works splendidly in (say) the Seventh and Eighth, particularly.  The first movement of the Seventh is tough to carry off, and if Haitink does not quite achieve the brillance of either An?erl (in the celebrated mono recording) or of the Gergiev/Mariinka performance I heard live in Worcester, Mass, Haitink?s is nonetheless a high success.  Haitink?s Eighth I?d call roughly on par with the Jansons (with the Pittsburgh Symphony).  I?ve not heard strings sound as good in the Fourteenth as the Concertgebouw in the HaitinkHaitink?s Thirteenth is overall a marvelous job.


That is certainly the case of those few Jansons recordings I've heard: the Eighth, and a particularly outstanding Tenth and Fifteenth.

Then, Karl, you must try Jansons in the 14th. Just revisisted it again this morning. Wonderfully inspiring.  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on April 26, 2007, 05:18:16 AM
Quote from: Harry on April 26, 2007, 04:49:53 AM
So better sound quality with Jansons as with Barshai?

From what I've heard of both, yes, I think so.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on April 26, 2007, 05:19:23 AM
And has anyone had experience with the Rostropovich set?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on April 26, 2007, 05:21:07 AM
Quote from: DavidW on April 25, 2007, 07:10:46 PM
Karl, have you heard Mravinsky in Shostakovich?  If so, did you like his style of conducting?

Only the Fifth and the Eleventh.  Both very fine interpretations;  I only wish the condition of both orchestra and recording were better!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on April 26, 2007, 05:22:05 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 26, 2007, 05:19:23 AM
And has anyone had experience with the Rostropovich set?

I wasn't fond of the orchestra. This seemed to distant for me.  :(
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on April 26, 2007, 05:31:42 AM
Quote from: Victor Carr
This is the middle ground between the sheer hysteria evoked by Kondrashin and Mravinsky . . . .

Well, I am sure that Mr Carr has heard more of the Mravinsky recordings than have I.  All I can say is, I hear no hysteria in the Mravinsky discs that I have of the Fifth and Eleventh.

Quote from: Victor Carr
The set includes all of the fillers from the original releases except in one case--the fine performance of Mussorgsky's Songs and Dances of Death that was coupled with No. 10 is now gone.

That is terrible news!  Robert Lloyd's performances of these, accompanied by the Philadelphia Orchestra, is a highlight all its own!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Drasko on April 26, 2007, 05:49:08 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 26, 2007, 05:31:42 AM
Well, I am sure that Mr Carr has heard more of the Mravinsky recordings than have I.  All I can say is, I hear no hysteria in the Mravinsky discs that I have of the Fifth and Eleventh.

I have heard few more and still no hysteria sighting. Here is video of what looks like a play-through rehearsal of Shostakovich 5th finale, so could someone pinpoint the hysteria bit for me?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0iqZbM1Pdc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0iqZbM1Pdc)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Choo Choo on April 26, 2007, 06:00:06 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 26, 2007, 05:21:07 AM

Quote from: DavidW on April 25, 2007, 07:10:46 PM
Karl, have you heard Mravinsky in Shostakovich?  If so, did you like his style of conducting?

Only the Fifth and the Eleventh.  Both very fine interpretations;  I only wish the condition of both orchestra and recording were better!

Karl, if you get a chance, try his 8th on BBC Legends.  Notwithstanding that it was recorded live in a London hall (seemingly) full of emphysema sufferers, it is second to none for the tension and excitement it evokes.  Hysterical?  No - the tension is real and substantial.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on April 26, 2007, 06:17:33 AM

Personally, I find Hysteria to be completely overrated. I always have. Now Pyromania, that was a great album.

Anything that screams for sugar to be poured upon it, is clearly an inferior work.  ;D

Seriously, though, has anyone considered the possiblilty that Mr. Carr was using the word "hysteria" a bit loosely? That's the way I read it and IMO the description fits like a glove.

Answers.com gives this definition, of the word:
1. Behavior exhibiting excessive or uncontrollable emotion, such as fear or panic.

This doesn't seem to me to be far from what I hear. Especially when compared to some of the others.  Compared to Haitink, Kondrashin and Mravinsky sound like madmen. :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on April 26, 2007, 06:22:14 AM
Quote from: George on April 26, 2007, 06:17:33 AM
Answers.com gives this definition, of the word:
1. Behavior exhibiting excessive or uncontrollable emotion, such as fear or panic.

Well, yes.

I hear no excessive or uncontrollable emotion, such as fear or panic, in the Mravinsky discs that I have of the Fifth and Eleventh.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on April 26, 2007, 06:22:58 AM
Quote from: Choo Choo on April 26, 2007, 06:00:06 AM
Karl, if you get a chance, try his 8th on BBC Legends.  Notwithstanding that it was recorded live in a London hall (seemingly) full of emphysema sufferers, it is second to none for the tension and excitement it evokes.  Hysterical?  No - the tension is real and substantial.

Thanks for reminding me of this, Nigel!  I have heard it well bespoken, and must seek it out.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Choo Choo on April 26, 2007, 06:23:07 AM
Quote from: George on April 26, 2007, 06:17:33 AM
1. Behavior exhibiting excessive or uncontrollable emotion, such as fear or panic.

That's not what I hear.  I would have said heightened emotion, maybe - but always total control.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on April 26, 2007, 06:28:16 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 26, 2007, 06:22:14 AM
Well, yes.

I hear no excessive or uncontrollable emotion, such as fear or panic, in the Mravinsky discs that I have of the Fifth and Eleventh.

Just to be clear, which version of each? I have heard the Praga 11th and find it to be exactly as Mr. Carr describes. In fact, I am very afraid when listening to it. This is precisely what I like about Mravinsky's work, it is often excessive, intense and provokes extreme emotions in me when I listen to him. These emotions include, but aren't limited to, fear and panic. 
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on April 26, 2007, 06:32:04 AM
Quote from: Choo Choo on April 26, 2007, 06:23:07 AM
That's not what I hear.  I would have said heightened emotion, maybe - but always total control.

That's why I said it must be considered that perhaps Mr. Carr is using the term loosely. If he is, then it seems like it would fit what you propose. Especially because I don't feel that any performance of these works could be successful without a great deal of control. Sure, Mravinsky is in full control externally, but that's how he can evoke the out-of-control quality internally. Without the external control of the conductor, you just have a mess. 
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on April 26, 2007, 06:32:45 AM
Quote from: George on April 26, 2007, 06:28:16 AM
Just to be clear, which version of each? I have heard the Praga 11th and find it to be exactly as Mr. Carr describes. In fact, I am very afraid when listening to it. This is precisely what I like about Mravinsky's work, it is often excessive, intense and provokes extreme emotions in me when I listen to him. These emotions include, but aren't limited to, fear and panic. 

Well, I suppose we just hear the same recording differently, George.  For in fact I have what must be the same Chant du Monde/Praga reissue(s).

I think my hearing of the recording is more in line with Nigel's;  I hear no loss of control, no threat of loss of control.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on April 26, 2007, 06:34:50 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 26, 2007, 06:32:45 AM
Well, I suppose we just hear the same recording differently, George.  For in fact I have what must be the same Chant du Monde/Praga reissue(s).

Thanks for clarifying. Yes, I agree. Just different ears.  :)

Quote
I think my hearing of the recording is more in line with Nigel's;  I hear no loss of control, no threat of loss of control.

I tried my best to explain this above, I hope it made some sense.  :-\
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on April 26, 2007, 06:36:29 AM
When it comes to using words to describe what goes on in the music, what goes on inside of us when we hear the music, we're all of us trying our best, George.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on April 26, 2007, 06:39:14 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 26, 2007, 06:36:29 AM
When it comes to using words to describe what goes on in the music, what goes on inside of us when we hear the music, we're all of us trying our best, George.

:)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Choo Choo on April 26, 2007, 01:14:20 PM
Quote from: George on April 26, 2007, 06:32:04 AM
Without the external control of the conductor, you just have a mess. 

Yes, exactly.  When I think of "hysterical" performances, that's precisely what comes to mind:  the sort of conductor who wallows and flails about, whipping up froth.  James Loughran (once of the Hallé) was a dreadful example of this.  Never once saw him conduct without wanting to slap him into his senses.

Mravinsky, on the other hand...
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: MishaK on April 26, 2007, 01:30:31 PM
The only complete Shosty I have is the Barshai which is an endless trove of discovery and rediscovery to me. I just love his attention to detail while keeping the whole in perspective. I have bits and pieces of some of the others mentioned here, but still prefer Barshai. But allow me to offer up another underrated Shosty-interpreter: Solti. AFAIK, he only recorderd 5 (VPO live), 8, 10, 13 and 15 (all CSO). But all of them excellent. His 15th, recorded live on his last CSO subscription concert before his death is my favorite recording of that work.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: bhodges on April 26, 2007, 01:36:20 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on April 26, 2007, 01:30:31 PM
But allow me to offer up another underrated Shosty-interpreter: Solti. AFAIK, he only recorderd 5 (VPO live), 8, 10, 13 and 15 (all CSO). But all of them excellent. His 15th, recorded live on his last CSO subscription concert before his death is my favorite recording of that work.

I have Solti's Eighth and Tenth and think they are quite marvelous, but not many other people seem to think so!  I would certainly be up for hearing the others, especially that No. 15.  I'll keep an eye out for it at Academy.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: MishaK on April 26, 2007, 01:42:54 PM
Quote from: bhodges on April 26, 2007, 01:36:20 PM
I have Solti's Eighth and Tenth and think they are quite marvelous, but not many other people seem to think so!  I would certainly be up for hearing the others, especially that No. 15.  I'll keep an eye out for it at Academy.

It comes with a very fine set of Mussorgsky's Songs and Dances of Death with Sergey Aleksashkin. The CD made me sad that I missed the concert. I was a student in Chicago at the time and made it to Solti's concert the previous week (which was also (mostly) recorded by Decca - Stravinsky Symphony of Psalms and Symphony in C (as well as Mozart PC 20 with Perahia which was not recorded)). But I didn't go the following week when they did the Shosty and Mussorgsky. I had plans to hear Solti the following season at Carnegie, but he died that fall.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Drasko on April 26, 2007, 01:43:41 PM
Quote from: bhodges on April 26, 2007, 01:36:20 PM
I would certainly be up for hearing the others, especially that No. 15.  I'll keep an eye out for it at Academy.

--Bruce

Or get it for pittance from downunder

http://www.buywell.com/cgi-bin/buywellic2/efly.html?mv_arg=11262 (http://www.buywell.com/cgi-bin/buywellic2/efly.html?mv_arg=11262)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: bhodges on April 26, 2007, 02:18:29 PM
Quote from: Drasko on April 26, 2007, 01:43:41 PM
Or get it for pittance from downunder

http://www.buywell.com/cgi-bin/buywellic2/efly.html?mv_arg=11262 (http://www.buywell.com/cgi-bin/buywellic2/efly.html?mv_arg=11262)

Thanks much for that link!

--Bruce
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Michel on April 27, 2007, 03:16:09 AM
I have recently purchased the Barshai set and I don't think it is all that it is cranked up to be. The only real reason to buy it is the price, since if you really want a Russian recording, I see no reason not to get Kondrashin.

I don't know all the symphonies well and some not at all, but for those I do know, I really do quite like Haitink. His 5th, for example, is very satisfying (despite the fact that some people slag it off); his sense and straightforward approach is quite refreshing in a catalogue of Russian conductors who sound like they are on crack cocaine. And there is definately a power in these interpretations; Haitink takes a slow burning, controlled Karajan-esqe approachas opposed to the explosions of Kondrashin, for example. And I think that suits the 5th. I would also imagine that it also suits the 15th but I have not heard it.

Nevertheless, I still think in some of the symphonies, nobody comes close to Mravinsky, who is an absolutely wonderful conductor in my view (having enjoyed a drive home last night listening to his brilliant Tchaikovsky 5). His Shostakovich 8th is unsurpassed. Bleak, harrowing and brillianty performed; so much so it seems absurd listening to it in the summer. It is definately one for longsome dark winter nights.Try comparing that particular recording with Barshai; it makes the latter's interpretation seem like a nursery rhyme.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 27, 2007, 06:36:27 AM
Quote from: Michel on April 27, 2007, 03:16:09 AM
I have recently purchased the Barshai set and I don't think it is all that it is cranked up to be. The only real reason to buy it is the price...

Nevertheless, I still think in some of the symphonies, nobody comes close to Mravinsky, who is an absolutely wonderful conductor in my view (having enjoyed a drive home last night listening to his brilliant Tchaikovsky 5). His Shostakovich 8th is unsurpassed. Bleak, harrowing and brillianty performed; so much so it seems absurd listening to it in the summer. It is definately one for longsome dark winter nights.Try comparing that particular recording with Barshai; it makes the latter's interpretation seem like a nursery rhyme.

Which Mravinsky 8th? I have his Philips recording and putting that along side Barshai makes Mravinsky seem banal.

And the Barshai set isn't so cheap anymore (at least in the States). So budgetary consideration is no longer the prime reason for buying this set. It's the quality of Barshai's performances that make it recommendable.



Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on April 27, 2007, 06:43:58 AM
Quote from: donwyn on April 25, 2007, 09:14:14 PM
Barshai has bits of both approaches in his renditions. Greater dynamics and bolder than either yet all the while keeping everything tucked and organized with a fine muscular grip. Contrasts swing wide and sound more, well, "Russian" yet transparency is an essential ingredient in his approach. We can see straight through Shostakovich's complex and multi-layered textures and are granted an 'insiders' view of the workings. It's a t[h]rill.


I sure like the sound of this, Don. Have you heard the Kondrashin?  If so, how does he fit into the mix?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Michel on April 27, 2007, 07:53:44 AM
Quote from: donwyn on April 27, 2007, 06:36:27 AM
Which Mravinsky 8th? I have his Philips recording and putting that along side Barshai makes Mravinsky seem banal.

And the Barshai set isn't so cheap anymore (at least in the States). So budgetary consideration is no longer the prime reason for buying this set. It's the quality of Barshai's performances that make it recommendable.

What do you mean by Banal? And, as George said, are you suggesting Barshai should be selected over Kondrashin?! Thats madness!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Harry on April 27, 2007, 09:13:48 AM
Quote from: donwyn on April 27, 2007, 06:36:27 AM
Which Mravinsky 8th? I have his Philips recording and putting that along side Barshai makes Mravinsky seem banal.

And the Barshai set isn't so cheap anymore (at least in the States). So budgetary consideration is no longer the prime reason for buying this set. It's the quality of Barshai's performances that make it recommendable.





Agreed wholeheartily. :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Harry on April 27, 2007, 09:17:33 AM
Quote from: Michel on April 27, 2007, 07:53:44 AM
What do you mean by Banal? And, as George said, are you suggesting Barshai should be selected over Kondrashin?! Thats madness!

I put it the other way around my friend, the opinion that Barshai is below Kondrashin is madness!
I cannot expect that everyone has the same opinion, and that's fine, but to annihilate the efforts of Barshai is indeed banal.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on April 27, 2007, 09:40:09 AM
Quote from: Michel on April 27, 2007, 07:53:44 AM
What do you mean by Banal? And, as George said, are you suggesting Barshai should be selected over Kondrashin?! Thats madness!

You misunderstand George.

He never said any such thing.  :-\
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Michel on April 27, 2007, 09:57:32 AM
Quote from: Harry on April 27, 2007, 09:17:33 AM
I put it the other way around my friend, the opinion that Barshai is below Kondrashin is madness!
I cannot expect that everyone has the same opinion, and that's fine, but to annihilate the efforts of Barshai is indeed banal.

Right, thats it. I've just ordered Haitink and Kondrashin. I'm going to put this issue to bed over the next few months!!!  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on April 27, 2007, 10:01:27 AM
We will read the results of your discovery of these sets with interest, Michel!  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Michel on April 27, 2007, 10:02:02 AM
Thanks Karl, I think I'll do a symphony by symphony approach, starting with those I know best. The 5th, 8th, 11th and 15th. Also, does anyone have a view on Rozhdestvensky?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on April 27, 2007, 10:21:51 AM
I've heard his Shostakovich Fourth, which is very good, though again one wishes the orchestra and recording were a match for the conductor.

And of course he's great on the megaphone in Järvi's recording of the Prokofiev October Cantata  ;)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on April 27, 2007, 12:16:31 PM
Quote from: Michel on April 27, 2007, 09:57:32 AM
Right, thats it. I've just ordered Haitink and Kondrashin. I'm going to put this issue to bed over the next few months!!!  ;D ;D

When you revisit it, perhps you will give the Jansons a listen?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Michel on April 27, 2007, 12:20:35 PM
Quote from: Steve on April 27, 2007, 12:16:31 PM
When you revisit it, perhps you will give the Jansons a listen?

Which symphony, or do you mean all of them!?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on April 27, 2007, 12:29:08 PM
Nos 14 and 15 would do.  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Michel on April 27, 2007, 01:09:50 PM
Quote from: Steve on April 27, 2007, 12:29:08 PM
Nos 14 and 15 would do.  :)

I saw Jansons do Mahler 6th a couple of years ago; a good, very good performance but not amazingly memorable. I would quite like to hear him in 15, certainly, I could see that as enjoyable. Not so sure about the more extreme symphonies, though.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: MishaK on April 27, 2007, 01:14:49 PM
I heard Jansons live with the Concertgebouw at Carnegie do a phenomenal 7th, February last year. Absolutely superlative playing by the orchestra. I gather there is a live recording on the RCO live label, but I haven't heard that or any of his other Shosty recordings, so I don't know how they measure up to my live experience.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Michel on April 27, 2007, 02:51:57 PM
Oh good lord I've got a problem. I've just ordered Jansons complete cycle too. So in one day I've ordered three complete cycles!!!!!

Still, this was relatively cheap too, so what the heck!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 27, 2007, 03:00:24 PM
Quote from: Michel on April 27, 2007, 02:51:57 PM
Oh good lord I've got a problem. I've just ordered Jansons complete cycle too. So in one day I've ordered three complete cycles!!!!!

Still, this was relatively cheap too, so what the heck!

Michel - GREAT!  I was 'eyeing' that Jansons cycle for my initial choice of a complete set, so will look forward to your comments on his performances, and of course the other sets purchased!  :D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on April 27, 2007, 03:05:35 PM
Quote from: Michel on April 27, 2007, 02:51:57 PM
Oh good lord I've got a problem. I've just ordered Jansons complete cycle too. So in one day I've ordered three complete cycles!!!!!

Still, this was relatively cheap too, so what the heck!

Wise choice  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: bhodges on April 27, 2007, 03:11:14 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on April 27, 2007, 01:14:49 PM
I heard Jansons live with the Concertgebouw at Carnegie do a phenomenal 7th, February last year. Absolutely superlative playing by the orchestra. I gather there is a live recording on the RCO live label, but I haven't heard that or any of his other Shosty recordings, so I don't know how they measure up to my live experience.

I was at that concert, too!   :o

--Bruce
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: MishaK on April 27, 2007, 03:13:48 PM
Quote from: bhodges on April 27, 2007, 03:11:14 PM
I was at that concert, too!   :o

--Bruce


Are you, like, stalking me or something?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: bhodges on April 27, 2007, 03:16:09 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on April 27, 2007, 03:13:48 PM

Are you, like, stalking me or something?

It is a little weird... ;D...if we ever meet in person, I'll probably go, "Oh, you're THAT guy..."  ;D

Seriously, as with most venues here, many of the same faces populate the same events.  I'm going to hear Pollini at Carnegie on Sunday -- are you going to that one?  ;D -- and I suspect I'll see some of the same faces that show up for most good piano recitals.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 27, 2007, 08:09:19 PM
Quote from: Michel on April 27, 2007, 02:51:57 PM
Oh good lord I've got a problem. I've just ordered Jansons complete cycle too. So in one day I've ordered three complete cycles!!!!!

Still, this was relatively cheap too, so what the heck!

That's certainly quite a haul, Michel! And one that should bring you many lasting returns.

What you'll no doubt discover is that what makes one conductor tick doesn't necessarily make another tick. Jansons, Kondrashin, and Haitink each have very individual things to say about Shostakovich. And each equally valid.

And, really, I don't think I'd have it any other way! A "one size fits all" approach to Shostakovich (or any music!) for me takes all the fun out of the exploration.

As far as my preference for Barshai over Mravinsky, or Kondrashin, or whomever...it's simply that: preference. In fact, on the old board I had a very lengthy and edifying (and HIGHLY entertaining!!) discussion about this very issue with the Master of Sidozery (where are you, Tony?!? ;D). M Forever chipped in as well. If you're interested in reading it, look here. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,4275.msg373013.html#msg373013) The discussion lasts a couple of pages so keep scrolling! 


Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 27, 2007, 08:34:58 PM
Quote from: George on April 27, 2007, 06:43:58 AM

I sure like the sound of this, Don. Have you heard the Kondrashin?  If so, how does he fit into the mix?

George,

I have Kondrashin's 5, 9, 10, & 13.

If my above link doesn't answer all your questions, feel free to query me further. :)



Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Michel on April 27, 2007, 10:50:27 PM
Quote from: donwyn on April 27, 2007, 08:09:19 PM
That's certainly quite a haul, Michel! And one that should bring you many lasting returns.

What you'll no doubt discover is that what makes one conductor tick doesn't necessarily make another tick. Jansons, Kondrashin, and Haitink each have very individual things to say about Shostakovich. And each equally valid.

And, really, I don't think I'd have it any other way! A "one size fits all" approach to Shostakovich (or any music!) for me takes all the fun out of the exploration.

As far as my preference for Barshai over Mravinsky, or Kondrashin, or whomever...it's simply that: preference. In fact, on the old board I had a very lengthy and edifying (and HIGHLY entertaining!!) discussion about this very issue with the Master of Sidozery (where are you, Tony?!? ;D). M Forever chipped in as well. If you're interested in reading it, look here. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,4275.msg373013.html#msg373013) The discussion lasts a couple of pages so keep scrolling! 




Thank you Don, for that link. I actually remember that discussion at the time, but it was good to refresh my memory. I actually don't think it gets to the root of the issue in really comparing the different conductors and what they are trying to achieve. And by that I mean Haitink was clearly trying to convey something quite different from Kondrashin, for example. And I know you now take the view that they are all good recordings, just different, which is always a useful and admirable perspective to take, but I would like these ideas fleshed out a little more, and discussed as single symphony recordings rather than en masse, as they are quite varied, aren't they? And this is what I intend to do. The thing I can't see a this point in time, is what Jansons is going to bring to the party...but, we will have to wait and see!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Michel on April 27, 2007, 11:01:51 PM
I suppose he is certainly bringing this to the party, that is at least interesting:

"Jansons uses no fewer than eight different ensembles, and it's remarkable how he maintains interpretive consistency."

And, perhaps if this is true (although this does not consider Barshai, strangely, which would seem to offer this too):

"This is the middle ground between the sheer hysteria evoked by Kondrashin and Mravinsky and the dark warmth found in Haitink's Concertgebouw Orchestra recordings."
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: MishaK on April 28, 2007, 05:46:35 AM
Quote from: bhodges on April 27, 2007, 03:16:09 PM
It is a little weird... ;D...if we ever meet in person, I'll probably go, "Oh, you're THAT guy..."  ;D

Seriously, as with most venues here, many of the same faces populate the same events.  I'm going to hear Pollini at Carnegie on Sunday -- are you going to that one?  ;D -- and I suspect I'll see some of the same faces that show up for most good piano recitals.

--Bruce

Well, now that I've moved to Chicago, the risk of that happening has been reduced. I did come to NY two weeks ago to hear the Saturday performance of the Magic Flute at the BAM. Did you go to that?  ;)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 01, 2007, 12:17:36 PM
Reading through this thread, it appears that the three sets to acquire are the Barshai, Jansons, and Kondrashin complete symphony cycles.

Has anyone heard all three (3) sets so as to compare/contrast them?  If I were to purchase only one set, could I go wrong with the Jansons?  Or do I need all three?

Also, I don't care for symphonies 1,2 and 3 . . . . . . at least for now . . . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Michel on May 01, 2007, 12:19:54 PM
Quote from: D Minor on May 01, 2007, 12:17:36 PM
Reading through this thread, it appears that the three sets to acquire are the Barshai, Jansons, and Kondrashin complete symphony cycles.

Has anyone heard all three (3) sets so as to compare/contrast them?  If I were to purchase only one set, could I go wrong with the Jansons?  Or do I need all three?

Also, I don't care for symphonies 1,2 and 3 . . . . . . at least for now . . . . . .

Kondrashin is expensive. Haitink can be picked up for a good price on the new re-release. But I am going to write something hopefully intelligent about these over the coming weeks.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Don on May 01, 2007, 12:22:18 PM
Quote from: Michel on May 01, 2007, 12:19:54 PM
Kondrashin is expensive.

The set only costs about $8 per disc.  That's not much for the best Shostakovich cycle on the market.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: bhodges on May 01, 2007, 12:24:01 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on April 28, 2007, 05:46:35 AM
Well, now that I've moved to Chicago, the risk of that happening has been reduced. I did come to NY two weeks ago to hear the Saturday performance of the Magic Flute at the BAM. Did you go to that?  ;)

Alas, no (not to digress from DSCH).  But then, I'm not a huge fan of the opera...

--Bruce
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 01, 2007, 12:24:34 PM
Quote from: Michel on May 01, 2007, 12:19:54 PM
Kondrashin is expensive. Haitink can be picked up for a good price on the new re-release. But I am going to write something hopefully intelligent about these over the coming weeks.

Excellent.  I'm very much looking forward to that . . . . . .

Prices @ AMAZON MARKETPLACE (USA):

Barshai = $55
Jansons = $51
Kondrashin = $79
Haitink (2006) = $49.99

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41WJ6Z6KD3L._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 01, 2007, 12:27:43 PM
Quote from: Don on May 01, 2007, 12:22:18 PM
The set only costs about $8 per disc.  That's not much for the best Shostakovich cycle on the market.

That's true.  Maybe Kondrashin is the way to go . . . . . . .  But now Haitink is looking pretty sweet . . . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Michel on May 01, 2007, 01:07:01 PM
Quote from: Don on May 01, 2007, 12:22:18 PM
The set only costs about $8 per disc.  That's not much for the best Shostakovich cycle on the market.

Are you referring to the recently re-released Melodiya one? I agree even at £50 this is not expensive, but it is still at least double the others.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Don on May 01, 2007, 01:11:38 PM
Quote from: Michel on May 01, 2007, 01:07:01 PM
Are you referring to the recently re-released Melodiya one? I agree even at £50 this is not expensive, but it is still at least double the others.

Sorry, but I can't get excited about price when great music-making is involved (except when some pig is trying to gouge consumers).
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 01, 2007, 01:14:22 PM
Quote from: D Minor on May 01, 2007, 12:24:34 PM
Excellent.  I'm very much looking forward to that . . . . . .

Prices @ AMAZON MARKETPLACE (USA):

Barshai = $55
Jansons = $51
Kondrashin = $79
Haitink (2006) = $49.99

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41WJ6Z6KD3L._SS500_.jpg)


D Minor, I have two cycles already (Jansons and Barshai), and was considering the Kondrashin, but at the 49.99, I might have to give the Haitink another look.

Could the Kondrashin be cheaper any place else?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Michel on May 01, 2007, 01:32:02 PM
Quote from: Don on May 01, 2007, 01:11:38 PM
Sorry, but I can't get excited about price when great music-making is involved (except when some pig is trying to gouge consumers).

That is true for you but not necessarily for others, though. And since you have already made your mind up, I was trying to help someone else who might use economy as a measure! :)

I for one certainly don't use economy as a measure; after all, I've just gone and needlessly bought them all.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 01, 2007, 01:47:17 PM
Quote from: Michel on May 01, 2007, 01:32:02 PM
That is true for you but not necessarily for others, though. And since you have already made your mind up, I was trying to help someone else who might use economy as a measure! :)

I for one certainly don't use economy as a measure; after all, I've just gone and needlessly bought them all.

Agreed. That Kondrashin is looking mighty expensive from my end. Especially given that I already own two cycles!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 01, 2007, 03:29:21 PM
Quote from: D Minor on May 01, 2007, 12:24:34 PM
Excellent.  I'm very much looking forward to that . . . . . .

Prices @ AMAZON MARKETPLACE (USA):

Barshai = $55
Jansons = $51
Kondrashin = $79
Haitink (2006) = $49.99

Guys - looks like the four cycles listed by D Minor have come to the 'top' for choices in this symphony series - think that I'm still favoring Jansons for my first 'complete cyle' - all seem quite acceptable, though; I guess Barshai or Kondrashin would be my other choices, but I must admit that I do own Haitink in a couple of these works, so 'how' to choose.  Still will await Michel's thoughts on the Jansons' series - thanks for all of the opinions - just a hard decision, esp. if only one set is your choice -  :D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 01, 2007, 03:34:55 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 01, 2007, 01:47:17 PM
Agreed. That Kondrashin is looking mighty expensive from my end. Especially given that I already own two cycles!

Go for it! We need another opinion of all three!  ;D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 01, 2007, 03:52:19 PM
George! For shame! Would you lay a snare at a friend's feet?  0:)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 01, 2007, 03:54:55 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 01, 2007, 03:52:19 PM
George! For shame! Would you lay a snare at a friend's feet?  0:)

For the greater good, Karl
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 01, 2007, 03:56:10 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 01, 2007, 03:54:55 PM
For the greater good, Karl

So when does it arrive?  ;D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 01, 2007, 04:08:49 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on May 01, 2007, 03:29:21 PM
Guys - looks like the four cycles listed by D Minor have come to the 'top' for choices in this symphony series - think that I'm still favoring Jansons for my first 'complete cyle' - all seem quite acceptable, though; I guess Barshai or Kondrashin would be my other choices, but I must admit that I do own Haitink in a couple of these works, so 'how' to choose.  Still will await Michel's thoughts on the Jansons' series - thanks for all of the opinions - just a hard decision, esp. if only one set is your choice -  :D


I was leaning toward Jansons earlier today, but now I'm leaning toward Kondrashin . . . . . . and I DO NOT feel like buying both . . . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 01, 2007, 04:12:21 PM

This is what finally convinced me to get (at the next opportunity) to get the Kondrashin.

From the Music Web review:

"What about the choice between Kondrashin, Rozhdestvensky (Olympia if you can find this set), Barshai (Brilliant) and Haitink (Decca)? Rozhdestvensky has a good sense of fantasy and brilliance and is aided by 1980s Russian sound. Barshai is excellent and in very good modern sound - German Radio originated. Haitink always strikes me as having knocked some of the rough edges from Shostakovich. I'd prefer mine with those jagged corners still in place. Haitink is at the bottom of my recommendation list. I'd rate Rozhdestvensky at about the same level as Barshai but would recommend Barshai as the best modern-sounding version. However if you want Shostakovich raw and rasping, red in tooth and claw, smarting with vitriolic humour, and do not have a problem with the gloriously distinctive sound of the Soviet brass then there is now no choice - Kondrashin on Aulos. Snap it up before it disappears. Ideally you should have both Barshai and the Kondrashin."
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 01, 2007, 04:13:10 PM
Quote from: George on May 01, 2007, 03:56:10 PM
So when does it arrive?  ;D

It's just now been purchased. My, I really thought I was going to stop at 2  ;D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 01, 2007, 04:14:00 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 01, 2007, 04:13:10 PM
It's just now been purchased. My I really thought I was going to stop at 2  ;D

I'll visit you in collector's rehab.  ;D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 01, 2007, 04:14:52 PM
Quote from: D Minor on May 01, 2007, 04:08:49 PM

I was leaning toward Jansons earlier today, but now I'm leaning toward Kondrashin . . . . . . and I DO NOT feel like buying both . . . . . .


I'm sure you'll end up with both in good time.  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 01, 2007, 04:19:27 PM
Quote from: George on May 01, 2007, 04:14:00 PM
I'll visit you in collector's rehab.  ;D

You should see my to buy list this week...  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 01, 2007, 04:21:53 PM
Quote from: George on May 01, 2007, 04:12:21 PM
However if you want Shostakovich raw and rasping, red in tooth and claw, smarting with vitriolic humour, and do not have a problem with the gloriously distinctive sound of the Soviet brass then there is now no choice - Kondrashin on Aulos. [/u]Snap it up before it disappears. Ideally you should have both Barshai and the Kondrashin."

OK, Kondrashin it is . . . . . . .  :D  I like my Shosty rasping and red in tooth & claw . . . . .

(http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/resources/ofstedal/couper/devil.jpg/medium.jpg)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 01, 2007, 04:32:27 PM
Now all we need is a wounded Gazelle for Haitink to the complete the metaphor!  ;D

(http://static.flickr.com/35/70302909_18e2261e56_m.jpg)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Don on May 01, 2007, 04:54:05 PM
Quote from: D Minor on May 01, 2007, 04:21:53 PM
OK, Kondrashin it is . . . . . . .  :D  I like my Shosty rasping and red in tooth & claw . . . . .

(http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/resources/ofstedal/couper/devil.jpg/medium.jpg)

You're making the best selection and won't be sorry.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 01, 2007, 04:57:32 PM
With all of this toutin the horn of the Kondrashin, how could I not buy it?  ;D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 01, 2007, 04:59:49 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 01, 2007, 04:57:32 PM
With all of this toutin the horn of the Kondrashin, how could I not buy it?  ;D

I haven't . . . . :-\






















































































yet.  ;D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 01, 2007, 05:04:10 PM
My, George, thats what I call a void.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 01, 2007, 05:06:35 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 01, 2007, 05:04:10 PM
My, George, thats what I call a void.

I was wondering if someone was going to not see the bottom and quote it.  ;D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 01, 2007, 05:17:24 PM
Which Kondrashin?  The remastered?  The Melodiya contains two extra tone poems . . . . . .

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/4137S41RC9L._SS500_.jpg)

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ITXXeJpaL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 01, 2007, 05:29:30 PM
OK - this is getting even more confusing as to preferences!  ::)  Everyone 'changing their minds' - I'll await some further listening advice; further, can't decide @ the moment 'how' I like my Shosty - will need to re-listen to what I own at the moment -  ;D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 01, 2007, 05:31:13 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on May 01, 2007, 05:29:30 PM
OK - this is getting even more confusing as to preferences!  ::)  Everyone 'changing their minds' - I'll await some further listening advice; further, can't decide @ the moment 'how' I like my Shosty - will need to re-listen to what I own at the moment -  ;D

This is the most crucial point, Dave. Once you figure that out, it'll be smooth sailing.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 01, 2007, 05:49:24 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on May 01, 2007, 05:29:30 PM
OK - this is getting even more confusing as to preferences!  ::)  Everyone 'changing their minds' - I'll await some further listening advice; further, can't decide @ the moment 'how' I like my Shosty - will need to re-listen to what I own at the moment -  ;D

Sorry for the flipflop, SonicMan . . . . . .

As to Kondrashin's Audos vs. Melodiya (from an Amazon review dated April 17, 2007):

The sound on this new set is an improvement over the prior set and is much clearer. Distortions have been markedly reduced (the louder moments in Stepan Razin remain affected). The accompanying booklet contains a good in-depth discussion of all of the works in the set but it does not have, like the earlier set, any of the texts. Each CD is in a cardboard sleeve that has different woodcut illustrations on the face with a complete description of the contents on the CD, including timings, on the reverse. The CDs are held in a flimsy cardboard box that is certain to become slightly crushed or bent in one place or another. I would have preferred a hard case as with the older Kondrashin set.

Also:

[The Melodiya set] also includes all of the Kondrashin/Shostakovich recordings that include The Execution of Stepan Razin, the symphonic poem October, The Second Violin Concerto with David Oistrakh (for whom the concerto was dedicated) and the cantata The Sun Is Shining Over Our Motherland. The total discs in the set are greater by one and the symphonies are arranged chronologically with the additional works as fill-ups.  


Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Drasko on May 02, 2007, 01:16:31 AM
Quote from: D Minor on May 01, 2007, 05:49:24 PM

The sound on this new set is an improvement over the prior set and is much clearer. Distortions have been markedly reduced (the louder moments in Stepan Razin remain affected). The accompanying booklet contains a good in-depth discussion of all of the works in the set but it does not have, like the earlier set, any of the texts. Each CD is in a cardboard sleeve that has different woodcut illustrations on the face with a complete description of the contents on the CD, including timings, on the reverse. The CDs are held in a flimsy cardboard box that is certain to become slightly crushed or bent in one place or another. I would have preferred a hard case as with the older Kondrashin set.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Michel on May 02, 2007, 01:30:28 AM
God that does look flimsy....
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 02, 2007, 02:47:47 AM
Quote from: Drasko on May 02, 2007, 01:16:31 AM



But isn't that the old set? The review said that they'd prefer the more durable packaging on the old set. I'm confused... :-\
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Michel on May 02, 2007, 03:08:44 AM
Thats the new one, on Melod.

The "old" is Auros, or whatever that label is called.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 02, 2007, 03:12:44 AM
No, I think the old one is the Melodiya.

From Music Web:

"Aulos, using DSD technology, have here produced a much more cleanly focused sound than BMG-Melodiya were able to do in 1994 when the discs were last issued. The transfer has also been done at a much higher level. It is a joy to hear and is surely the best CD account of those original tapes now between four decades and a quarter century old."

Aulos were released in January of this year. Was there another Melodiya release after that?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 02, 2007, 03:23:32 AM
Or are they one in the same (in terms of transfers), with just different packaging (Melodiya having the added performances)?

January 2007: It proved to be almost impossible to find this Aulos release but the set has now been repacked by Melodiya on 11 CDs  (http://www.musicweb.uk.net/classrev/2004/Aug04/Shostakovich_Kondrashin.htm)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Drasko on May 02, 2007, 03:31:50 AM
Quote from: George on May 02, 2007, 03:12:44 AM
No, I think the old one is the Melodiya.

From Music Web:

"Aulos, using DSD technology, have here produced a much more cleanly focused sound than BMG-Melodiya were able to do in 1994 when the discs were last issued. The transfer has also been done at a much higher level. It is a joy to hear and is surely the best CD account of those original tapes now between four decades and a quarter century old."

Aulos were released in January of this year. Was there another Melodiya release after that?

Aulos is from 2003, I think, and bespectacled Melodiya is from 2006. Musicweb is refering to previous Melodiya release. 
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 02, 2007, 03:45:36 AM
Quote from: Drasko on May 02, 2007, 03:31:50 AM
Aulos is from 2003, I think, and bespectacled Melodiya is from 2006.  

So the two above releases are different transfers?

I think the Melodiya is preferable, as its from the original tapes.

I've also heard that the Aulos may have been overfiltered (by M Forever:  See discussion here. (http://groups.google.com.vc/group/rec.music.classical.recordings/browse_frm/thread/35525dc0e62047af/5bb7154d804c260d?lnk=gst&q=Kondrashin+Shostakovich+Symphonies+Aulos+Melodiya&rnum=1&hl=en#5bb7154d804c260d))
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 02, 2007, 04:07:10 AM
Quote from: D Minor on May 01, 2007, 04:21:53 PM
OK, Kondrashin it is . . . . . . .  :D  I like my Shosty rasping and red in tooth & claw . . . . .

Gosh, whenever I've actually listened to a recording which had been lauded with that phrase ("red in tooth & claw") I did not find that the music, itself, reflected that vivid depiction (though, in some cases, the recording was still very fine).

The Kondrashin recordings (not Shostakovich, BTW, at least not within the past twenty years) which I have heard have not so much struck me as "red in tooth & claw," as rather unkempt.

Anyway, you will have divined by now that I have grown wary of the phrase "red in tooth & claw" by now, having come to feel that when a reviewer speaks so, he's pushing a pig in a poke . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 02, 2007, 04:10:34 AM
FWIW, cardboard boxes with the sleeves do not trouble me at all.  At this point I have three such boxes (a Beethoven symphony set [Masur/Gewandhaus], Britten Operas II, and the Emersons playing the Shostakovich Quartets);  I don't think they are liable to any greater damage than the plastic jewel-cases.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 02, 2007, 04:13:46 AM
Quote from: D Minor on May 01, 2007, 05:17:24 PM
Which Kondrashin?  The remastered?  The Melodiya contains two extra tone poems . . . . . .

Well, whether or not you do choose to go with the Kondrashin, at some point, you will want a recording of The Execution of Stepan Razin, Opus 119  ;)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 02, 2007, 04:15:12 AM
Quote from: Steve on May 01, 2007, 04:32:27 PM
Now all we need is a wounded Gazelle for Haitink to the complete the metaphor!  ;D

I revisited the Haitink recording of the Leningrad last night;  better than the Barshai (e.g.) IMO.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Choo Choo on May 02, 2007, 04:55:10 AM
Quote from: Michel on May 02, 2007, 01:30:28 AM
God that does look flimsy....

I don't know that I'd worry.  The Gielen / Mahler box - another cardboard box containing disks in paper sleeves - arrived here the other day rattling around loose in a padded envelope - from someone who'd also bought it by post and then played it (a lot) - and there's not a mark on either the box, the sleeves, or the disks.

Whereas I couldn't begin to count the number of plastic boxes I've received which had cracked covers or broken hinges - or, more seriously, securing lugs which had shattered and so allowed the disks to scrape around across the fractured stubs in transit.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 02, 2007, 05:01:47 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 02, 2007, 04:10:34 AM
FWIW, cardboard boxes with the sleeves do not trouble me at all.  At this point I have three such boxes (a Beethoven symphony set [Masur/Gewandhaus], Britten Operas II, and the Emersons playing the Shostakovich Quartets);  I don't think they are liable to any greater damage than the plastic jewel-cases.

They take up less space, too. I much prefer them actually.  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 02, 2007, 05:02:32 AM
Quote from: Choo Choo on May 02, 2007, 04:55:10 AM
I don't know that I'd worry.  The Gielen / Mahler box - another cardboard box containing disks in paper sleeves - arrived here the other day rattling around loose in a padded envelope - from someone who'd also bought it by post and then played it (a lot) - and there's not a mark on either the box, the sleeves, or the disks.

Whereas I couldn't begin to count the number of plastic boxes I've received which had cracked covers or broken hinges - or, more seriously, securing lugs which had shattered and so allowed the disks to scrape around across the fractured stubs in transit.

Exactly.  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Michel on May 02, 2007, 07:05:29 AM
Quote from: Choo Choo on May 02, 2007, 04:55:10 AM
I don't know that I'd worry.  The Gielen / Mahler box - another cardboard box containing disks in paper sleeves - arrived here the other day rattling around loose in a padded envelope - from someone who'd also bought it by post and then played it (a lot) - and there's not a mark on either the box, the sleeves, or the disks.

Whereas I couldn't begin to count the number of plastic boxes I've received which had cracked covers or broken hinges - or, more seriously, securing lugs which had shattered and so allowed the disks to scrape around across the fractured stubs in transit.

I agree, I hate plastic cases, they always smash. I particularly like the DG boxes, they are very robust. So is it just a normal card box? The thing about that photo is that it makes them look much thinner, etc than DG. And the cool thing about box sets is that they are chunky, bulky and sturdy, and satisfying to hold. Especially my 21 disc Schubert lieder box!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 02, 2007, 07:56:28 AM
Quote from: Michel on May 02, 2007, 07:05:29 AM
I agree, I hate plastic cases, they always smash. I particularly like the DG boxes, they are very robust. So is it just a normal card box? The thing about that photo is that it makes them look much thinner, etc than DG. And the cool thing about box sets is that they are chunky, bulky and sturdy, and satisfying to hold. Especially my 21 disc Schubert lieder box!


Having just read some of these posts, I was rather worried about the condition of this recording when it arrived. But,
i construction is like a DG Set, where the sleeves are thin, but the box is taut and sturdy, I have no problem.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 02, 2007, 08:20:31 AM
Quote from: Steve on May 02, 2007, 07:56:28 AM
Having just read some of these posts, I was rather worried about the condition of this recording when it arrived. But,
i construction is like a DG Set, where the sleeves are thin, but the box is taut and sturdy, I have no problem.

So it already arrived?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 02, 2007, 12:09:46 PM
So . . . . . . . . can we all agree that this Kondrashin performance is a wise choice (Melodiya with bespectacled cover)?

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ITXXeJpaL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 02, 2007, 12:21:14 PM
I respectfully abstain  0:)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 02, 2007, 12:24:35 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 02, 2007, 12:21:14 PM
I respectfully abstain  0:)

Threadmaster must participate . . . . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 02, 2007, 02:03:37 PM
Quote from: George on May 02, 2007, 08:20:31 AM
So it already arrived?

No, I need to fix that post. I should have read 'if the construction is as sturdy..." I've only placed the order yesterday. Now that would be quite speedy!  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 02, 2007, 02:19:27 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 02, 2007, 02:03:37 PM
No, I need to fix that post. I should have read 'if the construction is as sturdy..." I've only placed the order yesterday. Now that would be quite speedy!  :)

Indeed! Though I think you can get stuff sent overnight. As long as it isn't Conman, I mean Caiman.  ;D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2007, 02:20:18 PM
Quote from: D Minor on May 02, 2007, 12:09:46 PM
So . . . . . . . . can we all agree that this Kondrashin performance is a wise choice (Melodiya with bespectacled cover)?<

No, we can't. Rozhdestvensky Rules!


Besides Rozh, my favorite Shostakovich conductors are Jansons, Haitink, Previn, Ormandy, Sanderling, Bernstein and Rostropovich. But since this is a thread on cycles, I've refrained from participating because I only own one, Jansons. The only reason I'm here now is because I've nowhere else to go at the moment. ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 02, 2007, 02:21:02 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2007, 02:20:18 PM
No, we can't. Rozhdestvensky Rules!


Besides Rozh, my favorite Shostakovich conductors are Jansons, Haitink, Previn, Ormandy, Sanderling, Bernstein and Rostropovich. But since this is a thread on cycles, I've refrained from participating because I only own one, Jansons. The only reason I'm here now is because I've nowhere else to go at the moment. ;D

Sarge

;D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 02, 2007, 02:32:57 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2007, 02:20:18 PM
No, we can't. Rozhdestvensky Rules!


Besides Rozh, my favorite Shostakovich conductors are Jansons, Haitink, Previn, Ormandy, Sanderling, Bernstein and Rostropovich. But since this is a thread on cycles, I've refrained from participating because I only own one, Jansons. The only reason I'm here now is because I've nowhere else to go at the moment. ;D

Sarge

. . . . . I was just about to click "PLACE ORDER" . . . . . . .  ::)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2007, 02:52:32 PM
Quote from: D Minor on May 02, 2007, 02:32:57 PM
. . . . . I was just about to click "PLACE ORDER" . . . . . . .  ::)

Well, I can be serious if you want: I own about half of each of their cycles: I do prefer Rozhdestvensky to Kondrashin: the more expansive pacing, the superior sound quality (notwithstanding some fierceness in climaxes). To my ears Kondrashin tends to run roughshod over much of the music and his brass blares. He can be exciting, but how deep does he go?

My preference shouldn't surprise anyone who knows me: I'll almost always go for the slower, more considered performance.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Robert on May 02, 2007, 03:15:14 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2007, 02:52:32 PM
Well, I can be serious if you want: I own about half of each of their cycles: I do prefer Rozhdestvensky to Kondrashin: the more expansive pacing, the superior sound quality (notwithstanding some fierceness in climaxes). To my ears Kondrashin tends to run roughshod over much of the music and his brass blares. He can be exciting, but how deep does he go?

My preference shouldn't surprise anyone who knows me: I'll almost always go for the slower, more considered performance.

Sarge
I guess like me you love Celibidache.... :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2007, 03:25:59 PM
Quote from: Robert on May 02, 2007, 03:15:14 PM
I guess like me you love Celibidache.... :)

I do, most definitely.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 02, 2007, 05:33:27 PM
Quote from: D Minor on May 02, 2007, 02:32:57 PM
. . . . . I was just about to click "PLACE ORDER" . . . . . . .  ::)

I do apologize for making this decision harder for you, as I have been constantly tooting the horn of the Jansons. As of right now, I own two of the great cycles, Jansons and Barshai. Well, I return often to the Barshai for his consistent power and dramatic style, it is the Jansons that receives the most play in my house. As you may know from my replies in this thread, I recently placed an order for the Kondrashin.

I selected expedited shipping, (2 Business Days), and now look for its arrival tomorrow. When it comes, it will automatically climb to the top of my playlist, and I shall be able to report back with my thoughts immediately thereafter. If you wanted to wait, I could offer a symphony by symphony comparison for the major ones, and perhaps nudge you further in one direction.

After some comparison, I should be able to decide to whom will go my superlative
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 02, 2007, 05:55:03 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 02, 2007, 05:33:27 PM
I do apologize for making this decision harder for you, as I have been constantly tooting the horn of the Jansons. As of right now, I own two of the great cycles, Jansons and Barshai... I recently placed an order for the Kondrashin.......

Steve - will look forward (and await) your comments & those by others - thanks for all of your efforts!  ;D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 02, 2007, 06:00:15 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 02, 2007, 05:33:27 PM
If you wanted to wait, I could offer a symphony by symphony comparison for the major ones...

I would very much appreciate this, Steve.  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 02, 2007, 06:11:32 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 02, 2007, 05:33:27 PM
I do apologize for making this decision harder for you, as I have been constantly tooting the horn of the Jansons.

After some comparison, I should be able to decide to whom will go my superlative

Looking forward to that.

Right now, I plan on definitely purchasing Kondrashin and Barshai . . . . . .      just because . . . . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 02, 2007, 07:18:57 PM
Quote from: D Minor on May 02, 2007, 06:11:32 PM
Looking forward to that.

Right now, I plan on definitely purchasing Kondrashin and Barshai . . . . . .      just because . . . . . . .

You won't be dissapointed with the The Barshai, thats for sure!   :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 02, 2007, 10:13:23 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 02, 2007, 12:21:14 PM
I respectfully abstain  0:)

Familiar territory, but this is my sentiment exactly. ;)

It always makes me feel uneasy talking down about a musician whose shoes I'm not fit to shine but I have to admit, when it comes to these "legendary" Kondrashin recordings, I can't help but, well, offer two cents worth of...indecisiveness, maybe?

I'm trying to put a positive spin on it, of course, as indecisiveness isn't really an issue. Convincing me, so far, is!

Anyway, my reasonings for my distaste are spelled out at length in my link a few posts back and it would probably do me good to leave it at that.

Ah, as it's late, maybe I will...

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Danny on May 02, 2007, 11:11:06 PM
Love the Haitnik set so far, and especially love his version of the Tenth.

And what a delight to know that the Second and Sixth Symphonies don't suck!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Michel on May 03, 2007, 01:33:28 AM
One thing is for sure, Kondrashin's Mahler 1 IS the best! And thats that!

Any performance where the conductor walks off and then dies as a result must be a must purchase!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 03, 2007, 03:18:38 AM
Dmitri Kitaenko / Cologne Orchestra (Gurzenich-Orchester Köln) / Capriccio / Hybrid SACD

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/CDUCoverArt/Music/Large/01811109622.jpg)

Received many smokin' reviews . . . . . . but it's also among the most expensive sets ($94 at CD UNIVERSE; $135 @ AMAZON)


Has anyone heard this set?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 03, 2007, 04:10:13 AM
Quote from: Danny on May 02, 2007, 11:11:06 PM
Love the Haitnik set so far, and especially love his version of the Tenth.

And what a delight to know that the Second and Sixth Symphonies don't suck!

Oh, the Sixth is a great piece!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 03, 2007, 04:15:47 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2007, 02:52:32 PM
Well, I can be serious if you want: I own about half of each of their cycles: I do prefer Rozhdestvensky to Kondrashin: the more expansive pacing, the superior sound quality (notwithstanding some fierceness in climaxes). To my ears Kondrashin tends to run roughshod over much of the music and his brass blares. He can be exciting, but how deep does he go?

Very similar to my own read, Sarge, which is significant (I think) partly because you and I do not necessarily share an inlcination to expansive readings for their own sake.  (I haven't had my morning tea, and I could very likely have phrased that better, but let it stand.)

D Minor, what I will venture to say is, that the set which I am most inclined to purchase, based on what I have heard in individual recordings, is Maksim Dmitriyevich's.  He hasn't gotten any attention on this thread (an observation, not a criticism), but from what I have tasted, I'd like to hear what he has to bring to the whole cycle.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Lethevich on May 03, 2007, 05:01:55 AM
Quote from: D Minor on May 01, 2007, 12:24:34 PM
Prices @ AMAZON MARKETPLACE (USA):

Barshai = $55
Jansons = $51
Kondrashin = $79
Haitink (2006) = $49.99

What the hell? Didn't the Barshai use to be half that price? :-\

I guess if I'm going to throw in a whine post, I may as well do something constructive too: the Barshai is easy to overlook because of its (evidently no longer) very low price, but it has excellent sonics and the interpretation has plenty of grit/pathos/aggression (insert more generic "Shostakovichy" words here) as well, making it less boring than the "middle ground" nature of the interpretations may suggest.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 03, 2007, 09:16:47 AM
Quote from: D Minor on May 01, 2007, 12:24:34 PM
Prices @ AMAZON MARKETPLACE (USA):

Barshai = $55
Jansons = $51
Kondrashin = $79
Haitink (2006) = $49.99

(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/41xkr5TvSEL._SL130_.jpg)

Price @ amazon.com (USA):  $111.49
Price @ AMAZON MARKETPLACE (USA): from $68.43 (new)
Price @ arkivmusic.com:  $59.49 (current sale price)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Michel on May 03, 2007, 10:20:51 AM
Haitink came through the post today, so on it goes.....
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 03, 2007, 10:22:01 AM
Start with the Eighth or the Thirteenth!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 03, 2007, 10:32:43 AM
Quote from: Michel on May 03, 2007, 01:33:28 AM
One thing is for sure, Kondrashin's Mahler 1 IS the best! And thats that!

Any performance where the conductor walks off and then dies as a result must be a must purchase!

We'll see about that. Until then Jansons is my top choice.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 03, 2007, 11:12:11 AM
Quote from: Steve on May 03, 2007, 10:32:43 AM
We'll see about that. Until then Jansons is my top choice.

I'm betting that Haitink doesn't replace Jansons for you, Steve.  :-\
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Danny on May 03, 2007, 11:50:17 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 03, 2007, 10:22:01 AM
Start with the Eighth or the Thirteenth!

I just love the Tenth.  But, then again, I love that symphony period. 

The Sixth is indeed a delight, and am finally happy to have heard it! :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 03, 2007, 12:01:41 PM
Quote from: George on May 03, 2007, 11:12:11 AM
I'm betting that Haitink doesn't replace Jansons for you, Steve.  :-\

Well I haven't ordered the Haitink, yet. I will probably hold off until I've had a chance to sample a friends' copy. I'm most excited about the Kondrashin, actually.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 03, 2007, 01:42:19 PM
Quote from: Lethe on May 03, 2007, 05:01:55 AM
What the hell? Didn't the Barshai use to be half that price? :-\

I guess if I'm going to throw in a whine post, I may as well do something constructive too: the Barshai is easy to overlook because of its (evidently no longer) very low price, but it has excellent sonics and the interpretation has plenty of grit/pathos/aggression (insert more generic "Shostakovichy" words here) as well, making it less boring than the "middle ground" nature of the interpretations may suggest.

The Barshai set is a no-brainer (even with this elevated pricing): Russian conductor + excellent orchestra + modern sonics!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 03, 2007, 01:43:26 PM
But a Russian conductor + Russian orchestra + modern sound is also a winning formula.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 03, 2007, 01:44:28 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 03, 2007, 09:16:47 AM
(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/41xkr5TvSEL._SL130_.jpg)

Price @ amazon.com (USA):  $111.49
Price @ AMAZON MARKETPLACE (USA): from $68.43 (new)
Price @ arkivmusic.com:  $59.49 (current sale price)

That's a good sale price, Karl.  Very tempting, frankly.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Michel on May 03, 2007, 02:23:21 PM
Why is everyone talking about the great sonics of Barshai? I am a little way into my comparisons and the intial findings suggest the opposite. They are very unbalanced, with a lot of shrill, little or no midrange, with a booming, ineffective and crass bass. Haitink, on the other hand, is a sonic masterpiece. The lusch sonority of the Concertgebouw is glorious. And lets be honest, I would not describe the Kondrashin sonics as bad, or substantially worse than Barshai for the latter to gain a point.

Anyway, I just couldn't help saying this but I must abstain until I have further organised my thoughts.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 03, 2007, 02:54:47 PM
Quote from: Michel on May 03, 2007, 02:23:21 PM
Why is everyone talking about the great sonics of Barshai? I am a little way into my comparisons and the intial findings suggest the opposite. They are very unbalanced, with a lot of shrill, little or no midrange, with a booming, ineffective and crass bass. Haitink, on the other hand, is a sonic masterpiece. The lusch sonority of the Concertgebouw is glorious. And lets be honest, I would not describe the Kondrashin sonics as bad, or substantially worse than Barshai for the latter to gain a point.

This is agonizing. 
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 03, 2007, 02:57:45 PM
Quote from: Michel on May 03, 2007, 02:23:21 PM
Why is everyone talking about the great sonics of Barshai? I am a little way into my comparisons and the intial findings suggest the opposite. They are very unbalanced, with a lot of shrill, little or no midrange, with a booming, ineffective and crass bass. Haitink, on the other hand, is a sonic masterpiece. The lusch sonority of the Concertgebouw is glorious. And lets be honest, I would not describe the Kondrashin sonics as bad, or substantially worse than Barshai for the latter to gain a point.

Anyway, I just couldn't help saying this but I must abstain until I have further organised my thoughts.

I was not 'thrilled'' with the sonics either, but the playing is just terrific. There simply seems to be just the right amount of energy interjected into each of the movements, without compromising the mood of the work. Barshai knows these works. While the sound my not be as good, as say the Jansons, the performance is consistentantly an easy rec for me.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 03, 2007, 03:00:20 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 03, 2007, 02:57:45 PM
I was not 'thrilled'' with the sonics either, but the playing is just terrific. There simply seems to be just the right amount of energy interjected into each of the movements, without compromising the mood of the work. Barshai knows these works. While the sound my not be as good, as say the Jansons, the performance is consistentantly an easy rec for me.

Sonics is not rocket science, folks . . . . . . . Grrrrrr

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/144655.gif)

Says David Hurwitz: "The bottom line is that [Maxim Shostakovich] doesn't put a foot wrong anywhere. There's nothing controversial here, no extremes of fast or slow, no exaggerating the dark and miserable--but there's also no underplaying of the music's intensity. Shostakovich catches the flow of each piece, finding a balanced and unusually rich range of expression on both the happy and sad sides of the emotional ledger.  *** The live sonics are very faithful to the sound of the orchestra, and the audience, while present, is invariably well-behaved. I think it's important that Maxim Shostakovich's views on this music have been preserved at last, and if the result hasn't the technical perfection of the best of the competition, it has such honesty and genuine excitement that it really doesn't matter. This is a cycle to live with--a true reference for anyone wanting a baseline view of how each work ought to go, and what it expresses."  
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: sonic1 on May 03, 2007, 03:01:25 PM
I have never heard anyone really MESS UP Shostakovich symphonies, but please, don't prove me wrong. Let me stay ignorant if anyone has really screwed them up.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BorisG on May 03, 2007, 04:39:18 PM
Jansons may be the best bargain at $31 plus at Amazon Marketplace. The upside, this set has very good sound with a variety of orchestras turning in good to very good performances. The downside, few if any of the readings can vie for number one status.

I think Haitink at $15 to $20 more? is overall the best value. Some performances can vie for number one, and the sound is often of demonstration quality.

The less available Rozhdestvensky, and newly remastered Melodiya Kondrashin, are THE two Russian contenders. Some performances vie for number one. Sound is good on Rozhdestvensky, and acceptable to good on Kondrashin. Both are overpriced.

As is Barshai. $50 for Barshai is too high. If it was $30, then I could suggest someone get it for some Russian flavor.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 03, 2007, 04:50:27 PM
Quote from: BorisG on May 03, 2007, 04:39:18 PM
Jansons may be the best bargain at $31 plus at Amazon Marketplace.


Damn . . . . . . . that's a good price . . . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 03, 2007, 05:27:31 PM
Interesting exchange between Donwyn and M Forever:

Quote from: donwyn on November 03, 2006, 01:26:51 AM

With Mravinsky/Kondrashin I'm often disturbed by that "grab 'em by the throat" approach they both favor. I'd be happy if they decided to "linger" once in a while over the music, giving some space to the music to let it...sing. Yes, sing.

Quote from: M Forever

*** I thought about what I could say to make these recordings more appealing to you, but I couldn't really come up with anything that might help you. I don't find them lyrically wanting at all, it is just a different sort of lyricism from expansive, drawn out, speeled out lyricism. I find these performances by Kondrashin and Mravinsky very expressive, in a more stern, terse way, and they both emphasize the classicist aspect of Shostakovich' music. It is not really classicist in the sense of looking back in nostalgia, but in the concentration of form and expression which holds even the longest and most epic pieces together on the inside. Remember Mravinsky was intensely involved in the premieres of several of these pieces, not just because he happened to be there, but because he was Shostakovich' preferred conductor and one of his most ardent champions for many years. Later, the friendship went sour, but that is a different story. In any case, I don't find either Kondrashin or, and especially, Mravinsky far from being underexposed when it comes to the lyrical, expressive sides of Shostakovich' music. Both seem to me to be "spot on" when it comes to transporting a certain "tone" in the music that I find very apt and which sounds to me very "idiomatic".
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 03, 2007, 05:36:43 PM
Quote from: BorisG on May 03, 2007, 04:39:18 PM
Jansons may be the best bargain at $31 plus at Amazon Marketplace. The upside, this set has very good sound with a variety of orchestras turning in good to very good performances. The downside, few if any of the readings can vie for number one status.

I think Haitink at $15 to $20 more? is overall the best value. Some performances can vie for number one, and the sound is often of demonstration quality.

The less available Rozhdestvensky, and newly remastered Melodiya Kondrashin, are THE two Russian contenders. Some performances vie for number one. Sound is good on Rozhdestvensky, and acceptable to good on Kondrashin. Both are overpriced.


As is Barshai. $50 for Barshai is too high. If it was $30, then I could suggest someone get it for some Russian flavor.




As for the Jansons, many of his recordings can vie for elite status. Take for example the 2nd or the 15th- I have connected more with these symphonies than nearly anything in the Shostakovich repotoire thanks to Mariss Jansons. He suceeds on an entirely emotional level, bringing an intimate connection to works that have long struggled to appreciate.

As for the Barshai, I do feel that 50 dollars is a reasonabe rate. I own that set for the superior performances, excellent sound, and good tempi make this really a wonderful comapnion to the Jansons. I would reccomend it, even at 50 dollars.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BorisG on May 03, 2007, 05:55:34 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 03, 2007, 05:36:43 PM



As for the Jansons, many of his recordings can vie for elite status. Take for example the 2nd or the 15th- I have connected more with these symphonies than nearly anything in the Shostakovich repotoire thanks to Mariss Jansons. He suceeds on an entirely emotional level, bringing an intimate connection to works that have long struggled to appreciate.

As for the Barshai, I do feel that 50 dollars is a reasonabe rate. I own that set for the superior performances, excellent sound, and good tempi make this really a wonderful comapnion to the Jansons. I would reccomend it, even at 50 dollars.

Well, we must completely disagree.

Jansons has more things to say, as is clearly expressed in his recent Concertgebouw Shostakovich 7 recording. A considerable improvement over his earlier Leningrad. I am most optimistic for his and Concertgebouw's Shostakovich future.

I feel Barshai is a hack compared to Kondrashin and Rozhdestvensky. If one is hankering for Russian, that $50 would be better spent toward Kondrashin and Rozhdestvensky. Spend some more and get the real thing, which a true Russian lover would probably end up with anyway.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 03, 2007, 06:08:22 PM
Quote from: BorisG on May 03, 2007, 05:55:34 PM
Well, we must completely disagree.

Jansons has more things to say, as is clearly expressed in his recent Concertgebouw Shostakovich 7 recording. A considerable improvement over his earlier Leningrad. I am most optimistic for his and Concertgebouw's Shostakovich future.

I feel Barshai is a hack compared to Kondrashin and Rozhdestvensky. If one is hankering for Russian, that $50 would be better spent toward Kondrashin and Rozhdestvensky. Spend some more and get the real thing, which a true Russian lover would probably end up with anyway.

Yes, we will have to disagree. While I haven't heard the Kondrashin yet, I find that there is more to Barshai then a Russian touch on these symphonies. The orchestration is fantastic, there is abundant flavor and enthusiasm pulsating through the entire set. Barshai knew how to lead Shostakovich.  :)


Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BorisG on May 03, 2007, 06:17:26 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 03, 2007, 06:08:22 PM
Yes, we will have to disagree. While I haven't heard the Kondrashin yet, I find that there is more to Barshai then a Russian touch on these symphonies. The orchestration is fantastic, there is abundant flavor and enthusiasm pulsating through the entire set. Barshai knew how to lead Shostakovich.  :)




Also, you could compare Barshai and Bychkov WDR recordings.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 03, 2007, 06:19:36 PM
Quote from: BorisG on May 03, 2007, 06:17:26 PM
Also, you could compare Barshai and Bychkov WDR recordings.

I'm not familiar with those. Are you implying that they are similar recordings?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BorisG on May 03, 2007, 06:22:20 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 03, 2007, 06:19:36 PM
I'm not familiar with those. Are you implying that they are similar recordings?

No, no Hattogate.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 03, 2007, 06:29:53 PM
Well, I really should look into those, then. At the moment, I'm thrilled to find out if the Kondrashin really lives up to expectations. It was ordered with expedited delivery a couple of days ago, and so I expect it shortly. I would gladly engage in a discussion on how it fairs against the Barshai.  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 03, 2007, 07:58:09 PM
Quote from: D Minor on May 03, 2007, 02:54:47 PM
This is agonizing. 

It's also not true.

Barshai's set has been consistently hailed as a sonic success.

I have it and can attest to that.


Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 03, 2007, 08:01:44 PM
Quote from: BorisG on May 03, 2007, 05:55:34 PM
I feel Barshai is a hack compared to Kondrashin and Rozhdestvensky. .

Oh?

As Barshai premiered the 14th symphony, played viola in both the Beethoven and Borodin Quartets, founded the Moscow Chamber Orchestra (and even transcribed some of the quartets for chamber orchestra)...

...not to mention worked closely with Shostakovich, and, well...IS RUSSIAN...

Just how is he a hack?

Please, please enlighten us...




Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 03, 2007, 08:09:21 PM
Quote from: donwyn on May 03, 2007, 08:01:44 PM
Oh?

As Barshai premiered the 14th symphony, played viola in both the Beethoven and Borodin Quartets, transcribed some of the quartets for chamber orchestra, founded the Moscow Chamber Orchestra...

...not to mention worked closely with Shostakovich, and, well...IS RUSSIAN...

Just how is he a hack?

Please, please enlighten us...



I'm more eager to understand how a single Russian interpreter of these works is sufficient. I've sampled the Kondrashin, and find them to be radically different interpretations. There is not simply a single Russian touch
to these works.

As for the sonics, I found the sound to be impeccable.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 03, 2007, 08:24:19 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 03, 2007, 08:09:21 PM
There is not simply a single Russian touch
to these works.


Yes, judging by the recorded evidence, there is no single 'correct' Russian approach to these works.

There's Kondrashin who sounds nothing like Roszdestvensky who sounds nothing like Mravinsky who sounds nothing like Barshai (haven't heard Maxim ;)).

Which leaves the door wide open for all kinds of approaches.

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Michel on May 03, 2007, 10:46:10 PM
I am going to have to interject here again because, Donwyn, despite the fact that Barshai is Russian, he doesn't sound typically Russian, not like Kondrashin, Rozhdestvensky or Mravinsky. I take your point about there not being "one" Russian sound, but if a listener is after the stereotypical one, Barshai certainly is not it.

And anyone who thinks the sonics are impeccable, I seriously urge you to hear the 8th adagio of Haitink, then put on Barshai - you will suddenly see what I am saying.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: AnthonyAthletic on May 03, 2007, 10:54:03 PM
Michel, did you get your Barshai from Britannia, if so does their set come in jewel cases or paper sleeves?  I have the old jewel edition and am looking to save space  ;D

I recently bought his Shostakovich Chamber Symphonies, superb workings of 5 of his quartets, now for orchestra....even if Shosty didn't like what Barshai did with them (his own orchestrations), they are very grand stuff...lovely double flip slimline packaging too.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Harry on May 03, 2007, 11:08:51 PM
Quote from: Michel on May 03, 2007, 02:23:21 PM
Why is everyone talking about the great sonics of Barshai? I am a little way into my comparisons and the intial findings suggest the opposite. They are very unbalanced, with a lot of shrill, little or no midrange, with a booming, ineffective and crass bass. Haitink, on the other hand, is a sonic masterpiece. The lusch sonority of the Concertgebouw is glorious. And lets be honest, I would not describe the Kondrashin sonics as bad, or substantially worse than Barshai for the latter to gain a point.

Anyway, I just couldn't help saying this but I must abstain until I have further organised my thoughts.

Michel, I am a bit wondering about your equipment!
I am sorry to say to you that the notion that the Barshai sound is not that good as Haitink, is simply not true.
I have both sets, true they have a totally different sound picture, and a different acoustic, but both are very good.
If you have shrillness, and little mid-range and a booming bass, than first look at your listening room, and if that is oke, change your gear.
Because neither of the things you say is true in the general sense. The recording from Barshai is very good.
Haitink is lush yes, Barshai is lucid and tight, different acoustics.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Harry on May 03, 2007, 11:09:45 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 03, 2007, 06:08:22 PM
Yes, we will have to disagree. While I haven't heard the Kondrashin yet, I find that there is more to Barshai then a Russian touch on these symphonies. The orchestration is fantastic, there is abundant flavor and enthusiasm pulsating through the entire set. Barshai knew how to lead Shostakovich.  :)




Totally agreed upon!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Harry on May 03, 2007, 11:13:02 PM
Quote from: Michel on May 03, 2007, 10:46:10 PM
I am going to have to interject here again because, Donwyn, despite the fact that Barshai is Russian, he doesn't sound typically Russian, not like Kondrashin, Rozhdestvensky or Mravinsky. I take your point about there not being "one" Russian sound, but if a listener is after the stereotypical one, Barshai certainly is not it.

And anyone who thinks the sonics are impeccable, I seriously urge you to hear the 8th adagio of Haitink, then put on Barshai - you will suddenly see what I am saying.

Well lets say, alot of people think that the Barshai is oke, and you think not.
But please define if you will, what in your opinion a Russian flavour is and what not!
I did listen Michel, and both sound top-notch.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Michel on May 04, 2007, 12:01:38 AM
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on May 03, 2007, 10:54:03 PM
Michel, did you get your Barshai from Britannia, if so does their set come in jewel cases or paper sleeves?  I have the old jewel edition and am looking to save space  ;D

I recently bought his Shostakovich Chamber Symphonies, superb workings of 5 of his quartets, now for orchestra....even if Shosty didn't like what Barshai did with them (his own orchestrations), they are very grand stuff...lovely double flip slimline packaging too.

Yeah, it is the box with card sleeves - much better than that bulky lot!!

And its only 13 quid isnt it?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Drasko on May 04, 2007, 01:48:43 AM
Quote from: Steve on May 03, 2007, 02:57:45 PM
I was not 'thrilled'' with the sonics either, but the playing is just terrific. There simply seems to be just the right amount of energy interjected into each of the movements, without compromising the mood of the work. Barshai knows these works.

Quote from: Steve on May 03, 2007, 08:09:21 PM
As for the sonics, I found the sound to be impeccable.

So, which is it?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Michel on May 04, 2007, 02:13:01 AM
Quote from: Drasko on May 04, 2007, 01:48:43 AM
So, which is it?

Well spotted Drasko!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 04, 2007, 04:41:10 AM
Quote from: D Minor on May 03, 2007, 01:44:28 PM
That's a good sale price, Karl.  Very tempting, frankly.

Well, and with $2.95 shipping, a temptation which I did not see fit to resist, mon vieux  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 04, 2007, 04:46:57 AM
Quote from: Michel on May 03, 2007, 02:23:21 PM
Why is everyone talking about the great sonics of Barshai? I am a little way into my comparisons and the intial findings suggest the opposite. They are very unbalanced, with a lot of shrill, little or no midrange, with a booming, ineffective and crass bass. Haitink, on the other hand, is a sonic masterpiece. The lusch sonority of the Concertgebouw is glorious. And lets be honest, I would not describe the Kondrashin sonics as bad, or substantially worse than Barshai for the latter to gain a point.

Anyway, I just couldn't help saying this but I must abstain until I have further organised my thoughts.

That all sounds pretty much to the point, by me.  It is, for instance, a large part of Barshai's account of the Seventh not striking me as any gain upon the Haitink (terrific sound overall whether the orchestra is the Concertgebouw, or [as is the case with the Leningrad] the London Phil).
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 04, 2007, 04:49:42 AM
Quote from: sonic1 on May 03, 2007, 03:01:25 PM
I have never heard anyone really MESS UP Shostakovich symphonies, but please, don't prove me wrong. Let me stay ignorant if anyone has really screwed them up.

Well, at the risk of offending von Karajan devotees (and You Know Who You Are  ;D), the recording of the Tenth (and no, I don't know which of the two) I've heard buries the brass back in the mix.  Whether the fault rests with the conductor, or with the sound mixer, I do not know;  but the result is a regrettable muting of some of my best-loved highlights in the piece.

In my book, that recording messes up the Tenth.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 04, 2007, 04:52:32 AM
Quote from: BorisG on May 03, 2007, 04:39:18 PM
Jansons may be the best bargain at $31 plus at Amazon Marketplace. The upside, this set has very good sound with a variety of orchestras turning in good to very good performances. The downside, few if any of the readings can vie for number one status.

Well, I've got to think the Tenth (Phila) and the Fifteenth (London Phil) contenders there.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 04, 2007, 04:54:44 AM
Quote from: BorisG on May 03, 2007, 05:55:34 PM
Well, we must completely disagree.

Jansons has more things to say, as is clearly expressed in his recent Concertgebouw Shostakovich 7 recording. A considerable improvement over his earlier Leningrad. I am most optimistic for his and Concertgebouw's Shostakovich future.

I feel Barshai is a hack compared to Kondrashin and Rozhdestvensky. If one is hankering for Russian, that $50 would be better spent toward Kondrashin and Rozhdestvensky. Spend some more and get the real thing, which a true Russian lover would probably end up with anyway.

Gentlemen both, it is certainly true that we will often disagree as to what a good price will be, of a given artistic commodity.

That's simply the turf.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 04, 2007, 05:10:17 AM
Quote from: D Minor on May 03, 2007, 05:27:31 PM
Interesting exchange between Donwyn and M Forever:

Quote from: M Forever*** I thought about what I could say to make these recordings more appealing to you, but I couldn't really come up with anything that might help you. I don't find them lyrically wanting at all, it is just a different sort of lyricism from expansive, drawn out, speeled out lyricism. I find these performances by Kondrashin and Mravinsky very expressive, in a more stern, terse way, and they both emphasize the classicist aspect of Shostakovich' music. It is not really classicist in the sense of looking back in nostalgia, but in the concentration of form and expression which holds even the longest and most epic pieces together on the inside. Remember Mravinsky was intensely involved in the premieres of several of these pieces, not just because he happened to be there, but because he was Shostakovich' preferred conductor and one of his most ardent champions for many years. Later, the friendship went sour, but that is a different story. In any case, I don't find either Kondrashin or, and especially, Mravinsky far from being underexposed when it comes to the lyrical, expressive sides of Shostakovich' music. Both seem to me to be "spot on" when it comes to transporting a certain "tone" in the music that I find very apt and which sounds to me very "idiomatic".


Very interesting.  Great insight viz. the classicist aspect of Shostakovich (which may seem at odds with the composer's well-known fondness for Mahler).  Yet, FWIW (and from what I've heard of both conductors) I don't take these comments as absolutely selling me on Mravinsky or Kondrashin . . . .

Incidentally, though, this angle of the classicist Shostakovich is partly why I cherish the Haitink recordings I've got.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Michel on May 04, 2007, 05:41:01 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 04, 2007, 04:49:42 AM
Well, at the risk of offending von Karajan devotees (and You Know Who You Are  ;D), the recording of the Tenth (and no, I don't know which of the two) I've heard buries the brass back in the mix.  Whether the fault rests with the conductor, or with the sound mixer, I do not know;  but the result is a regrettable muting of some of my best-loved highlights in the piece.

In my book, that recording messes up the Tenth.

I've got this and find others more satisfying. I will return to it, though, in the survey I am currently undertaking. My biggest problem, despite this however, is actually that I don't much like the symphony!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 04, 2007, 06:25:53 AM
Quote from: D Minor on May 03, 2007, 03:00:20 PM
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/144655.gif)

Says David Hurwitz: "The bottom line is that [Maxim Shostakovich] doesn't put a foot wrong anywhere. There's nothing controversial here, no extremes of fast or slow, no exaggerating the dark and miserable--but there's also no underplaying of the music's intensity. Shostakovich catches the flow of each piece, finding a balanced and unusually rich range of expression on both the happy and sad sides of the emotional ledger.  *** The live sonics are very faithful to the sound of the orchestra, and the audience, while present, is invariably well-behaved. I think it's important that Maxim Shostakovich's views on this music have been preserved at last, and if the result hasn't the technical perfection of the best of the competition, it has such honesty and genuine excitement that it really doesn't matter. This is a cycle to live with--a true reference for anyone wanting a baseline view of how each work ought to go, and what it expresses."  

Thanks for finding that review, Mr. Minor. I've never considered this set before because every review I can recall was lukewarm about Maxim's recordings. This changes the picture completely. I feel sorry for, Karl, though...he hates Hurwitz and this might put him off the set completely ;D

By the way, anyone looking for Bashai and wanting the best price should check out JPC:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/4460486/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist

Even with the poor dollar/Euro exchange rate and shipping costs to the States that can be horrendous, it might still be a bargain.

At this price it should be a no-brainer for me, but I'm still hesitating about Barshai. I'm really happy with Jansons (with the exception of his Sixth: first movement way too fast; he completely misses the desolation this music should project) and even more happy with my individual picks for the symphonies.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 04, 2007, 06:33:12 AM
Quote from: Michel on May 03, 2007, 10:46:10 PM
I am going to have to interject here again because, Donwyn, despite the fact that Barshai is Russian, he doesn't sound typically Russian, not like Kondrashin, Rozhdestvensky or Mravinsky.

Well, I'm not exactly sure what it is that you're disagreeing with, Michel. I didn't intend to say Barshia sounds "typically" Russian. My point is simply each Russian has their own ideas of how to approach this music.

QuoteI take your point about there not being "one" Russian sound, but if a listener is after the stereotypical one, Barshai certainly is not it.

Well, what exactly is a "stereotypical" Russian sound? As I pointed out the Big Three (Kondrashin, Rozhd, Mravinsky) sound nothing alike.

I'd add that Pletnev in his Russian recordings sound nothing like the Big Three. Ditto Polyansky, Gergiev, and so on...

Harry, I think, asked it best:

Quote from: Harry on May 03, 2007, 11:13:02 PM
But please define if you will, what in your opinion a Russian flavour is and what not!





Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 04, 2007, 06:33:56 AM
Quote from: Harry on May 03, 2007, 11:08:51 PM
Michel, I am a bit wondering about your equipment!
I am sorry to say to you that the notion that the Barshai sound is not that good as Haitink, is simply not true.
I have both sets, true they have a totally different sound picture, and a different acoustic, but both are very good.
If you have shrillness, and little mid-range and a booming bass, than first look at your listening room, and if that is oke, change your gear.
Because neither of the things you say is true in the general sense. The recording from Barshai is very good.
Haitink is lush yes, Barshai is lucid and tight, different acoustics.

I agree, Harry.





Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 04, 2007, 06:37:23 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 04, 2007, 06:25:53 AM
Thanks for finding that review, Mr. Minor. I've never considered this set before because every review I can recall was lukewarm about Maxim's recordings. This changes the picture completely. I feel sorry for, Karl, though...he hates Hurwitz and this might put him off the set completely ;D

Nay, Sarge;  I am chilled steel where Hurwitz is concerned  8)

He has frequently puzzled me by his scornful contempt for recordings which my ears find excellent;  but there have been instances before now where he has been enthusiastic for other recordings for whose excellence I can vouch as well.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 04, 2007, 06:43:48 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 04, 2007, 06:37:23 AM
Nay, Sarge;  I am chilled steel where Hurwitz is concerned  8)

He has frequently puzzled me by his scornful contempt for recordings which my ears find excellent;  but there have been instances before now where he has been enthusiastic for other recordings for whose excellence I can vouch as well.

This pleases me, Karl. And, yes, I understand your objections to Hurwitz; he can be puzzling at times and certainly overly harsh but his way of objecting to a recording can be so amusing, I find myself laughing even when I'm violently disagreeing with him on a purely critical level.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 04, 2007, 06:49:31 AM

An idea:

Perhaps we could start with #1 and listen to the recordings we have in our collection. Then report back with our findings and discuss.

Once we've done that, we could move on to #2 and continue in this fashion until we reach #15.

That way, we could take a closer look at these works and evaluate how many of them are done well by each of the conductors who offer them as sets and then pick a set to buy based on this information. Or, perhaps conclude that buying separate performances is the way to go?

What do folks think about this?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Michel on May 04, 2007, 07:27:54 AM
I agree and is what I previously promised to undertake. Otherwise you just get everyone, including me, talking generalisations.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 04, 2007, 07:29:59 AM
I think it's a great idea in principle, and I applaud it;  I don't know if I could keep track with it, in practice.

But I'll still undertake to talk specifics where applicable  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 04, 2007, 08:19:09 AM

OK, I will listen to my recordings of #1 in the next few days, take a few notes, and post my thoughts here, unless we want to start another thread. I realize that it wasn't quite the original intent of this thread, so I'd be glad to start up another. What do folks think? 
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: sonic1 on May 04, 2007, 08:22:30 AM
I will try to participate in this, however most of my CDs and LPs are terribly unorganized because I just moved to a new place. So I am not sure how completest I can be. I will try.

jared
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 04, 2007, 08:23:08 AM
Quote from: George on May 04, 2007, 08:19:09 AM
OK, I will listen to my recordings of #1 in the next few days, take a few notes, and post my thoughts here, unless we want to start another thread. I realize that it wasn't quite the original intent of this thread, so I'd be glad to start up another. What do folks think? 

I consider that within the larger mission of this thread;  but if it is felt that a fresh thread should be started, I have no objection either way.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 04, 2007, 09:58:03 AM
Quote from: George on May 04, 2007, 06:49:31 AM
An idea:

Perhaps we could start with #1 and listen to the recordings we have in our collection. Then report back with our findings and discuss.

Once we've done that, we could move on to #2 and continue in this fashion until we reach #15.

That way, we could take a closer look at these works and evaluate how many of them are done well by each of the conductors who offer them as sets and then pick a set to buy based on this information. Or, perhaps conclude that buying separate performances is the way to go?


What do folks think about this?

George, I think its a fine idea. Once the Kondrashin comes in, I will have three recordings of each symphony to compare.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Bunny on May 04, 2007, 10:56:28 AM
I also have the Maxim Shostakovich set, and while it's very good it's also very cautious.  I suppose I've been spoiled by the Kondrashin set which lets all the stops out.

Meanwhile, has anyone heard anything about the Yakov Kreizberg recording of the 5th and 9th symphonies?  I have heard from friends whose opinion I trust that it's a magnificent recording -- and in SACD/hybrid sound.

(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/513M8glGvTL._SS400_.jpg)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 04, 2007, 11:00:49 AM
Quote from: Bunny on May 04, 2007, 10:56:28 AM
I also have the Maxim Shostakovich set, and while it's very good it's also very cautious.  I suppose I've been spoiled by the Kondrashin set which lets all the stops out.

Hmm.  I admit that along with "red in maw, tooth and claw," I am wary of the phrase "lets all the stops out."  Too many critics have sexed up one recording too many with that one, too.  Just saying.

Also, that Maksim Dmitriyevich's recording of the Fourth, which is thus far the only of the symphonies I have heard under his direction, does not strike me as "cautious" in the least.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Bunny on May 04, 2007, 11:09:36 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 04, 2007, 11:00:49 AM
Hmm.  I admit that along with "red in maw, tooth and claw," I am wary of the phrase "lets all the stops out."  Too many critics have sexed up one recording too many with that one, too.  Just saying.

Also, that Maksim Dmitriyevich's recording of the Fourth, which is thus far the only of the symphonies I have heard under his direction, does not strike me as "cautious" in the least.

Karl, I like the Maxim Shosty set, but unless you've heard the Kondrashin, you really can't comment on it.  It's not sexed up hype, it's just that Kondrashin is the most exciting and vibrant Shostakovich I've heard -- and I prefer it despite it's awful sound quality.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 04, 2007, 11:14:22 AM
Quote from: Bunny on May 04, 2007, 11:09:36 AM
Karl, I like the Maxim Shosty set, but unless you've heard the Kondrashin, you really can't comment on it.

That is true, save only two minor qualifications.

I have heard a recording of his Fourteenth (a cassette I used to have in the 80s), yet it does not loom as great in sonic memory as some of the print I have read suggests it ought.

And other recordings I have heard more recently (not of Shostakovich) conducted by Kondrashin strike me more as ragged than as exciting.

Those points aside, I am certainly interested in hearing more of the Kondrashin cycle, especially now that the sound has been cleaned up.  But you will agree, I think, that on the basis of my own listening experience, I cannot be expected to think the Kondrashin a sound investment (no pun intended) at this price.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 04, 2007, 11:17:05 AM
Quote from: Bunny on May 04, 2007, 11:09:36 AM
Karl, I like the Maxim Shosty set, but unless you've heard the Kondrashin, you really can't comment on it.  It's not sexed up hype, it's just that Kondrashin is the most exciting and vibrant Shostakovich I've heard -- and I prefer it despite it's awful sound quality.

Just curious: do you have the early Melodiya issue, the Aulos one, or the most recent Melodiya issue with the red eyeglasses on the cover?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 04, 2007, 11:17:12 AM
Quote from: BorisG on May 03, 2007, 05:55:34 PM
I feel Barshai is a hack compared to Kondrashin and Rozhdestvensky.

That statement is not supported by the evidence . . . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 04, 2007, 11:18:17 AM
Quote from: donwyn on May 03, 2007, 07:58:09 PM
Barshai's set has been consistently hailed as a sonic success.

I have it and can attest to that.

Bless you!  :-*
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 04, 2007, 11:19:27 AM
Music is discovery, mon vieux!   0:)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 04, 2007, 11:21:13 AM
Quote from: donwyn on May 03, 2007, 08:24:19 PM
There's Kondrashin who sounds nothing like Roszdestvensky who sounds nothing like Mravinsky who sounds nothing like Barshai (haven't heard Maxim ;)).

Which leaves the door wide open for all kinds of approaches.

I think that's really the bottom line . . . . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 04, 2007, 11:21:37 AM
Quote from: D Minor on May 04, 2007, 11:18:17 AM
Bless you!  :-*

The Barshai was actually my first complete cycle of the Shostakovich Symphonies. To this day, I have never had any qualms with the sonics.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 04, 2007, 11:24:25 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 04, 2007, 04:41:10 AM
Well, and with $2.95 shipping, [the Maxim Shosty set represents] a temptation which I did not see fit to resist, mon vieux  :)

I agree . . . . . . . irresistible . . . . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 04, 2007, 11:26:57 AM
Quote from: D Minor on May 04, 2007, 11:24:25 AM
I agree . . . . . . . irresistible . . . . . . .

You're familiar with that set, D Minor? What do you think of it?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 04, 2007, 11:28:35 AM
Quote from: George on May 04, 2007, 06:49:31 AM
An idea:

Perhaps we could start with #1 and listen to the recordings we have in our collection. Then report back with our findings and discuss.

Once we've done that, we could move on to #2 and continue in this fashion until we reach #15.

That way, we could take a closer look at these works and evaluate how many of them are done well by each of the conductors who offer them as sets and then pick a set to buy based on this information. Or, perhaps conclude that buying separate performances is the way to go?

What do folks think about this?

Too sensible an idea, George . . . . . . . This is GMG, afterall . . . . . . where systematic, rational approaches simply do not fly! . . . . . . .  :D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 04, 2007, 11:29:50 AM
Quote from: Steve on May 04, 2007, 11:26:57 AM
You're familiar with that set, D Minor? What do you think of it?

No, I don't have it . . . . . my point is that I agree that it's a tempting purchase (based on numerous factors). . . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 04, 2007, 11:31:22 AM
Quote from: sonic1 on May 04, 2007, 08:22:30 AM
I will try to participate in this, however most of my CDs and LPs are terribly unorganized because I just moved to a new place. So I am not sure how completest I can be. I will try.

jared

We're here for you, Jared . . . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 04, 2007, 11:37:51 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 04, 2007, 11:14:22 AM
I am certainly interested in hearing more of the Kondrashin cycle, especially now that the sound has been cleaned up. 

Well, based on that Amazon review (cited earlier), the sonics have been measurably improved . . . . . . So, if for no other reason, the newest remastered Kondrashin cycle should be purchased as a reference set . . . . . . . (in addition to at least a half-dozen other sets  ::)) . . . . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 04, 2007, 11:42:32 AM
Quote from: D Minor on May 04, 2007, 11:29:50 AM
No, I don't have it . . . . . my point is that I agree that it's a tempting purchase (based on numerous factors). . . . . .

Ahh, noted.  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 04, 2007, 11:45:28 AM
Here is a review posted at amazon by an esteemed friend no longer with us:

Quote from: Bob ZeidlerI am actually more than mildly surprised to see this boxed set of the Shostakovich symphonies, performed by Rudolf Barshai and the Southwest Radio Orchestra (Germany) available here at Amazon.com. Brilliant Classics is not a label that gets wide distribution in the U.S. (although one can find releases on this label if one knows where to look).

Any - perhaps every - collector of the Shostakovich symphonies can put together a listing of his or her favorite performances, work-by-work, without once referring to this Barshai boxed set. I know that I can, and that such a listing for me would include performances by Bernstein (the 5th), Gergiev (the 7th) Haitink (several, but most especially the 8th and the 15th), both Janssons and Karajan (the 10th), Ormandy (the 4th), Rostropovich (the 11th, in his new LSO Live recording), Stokowski (the 1st and the 11th) and Zander (the 5th). All of these (and more) are already in my library, and I wouldn't want to be without any of them.

But all of this is beside the point. In virtually every way (including performance and sonics), these Barshai recordings are highly competitive, and, as an integral complete set, are topped only by the Haitink set (at considerably higher cost). Barshai, for many years, was a close associate of Shostakovich (and the arranger of, among other pieces, Shostakovich's remarkable 8th Quartet for chamber orchestra as his "Chamber Symphony"), and he has this music in his blood. This long personal association means that Barshai understands not only what we have come to call "authentic performance practice," but all of the myriad "hidden meanings" to be found in this most autobiographical of composers.

Overall, the weaknesses are very few. The packaging is Spartan, and the documentation even less than that. If I continue to prefer Haitink for the 8th and 15th Symphonies, it is by the smallest of margins. Ditto for Gergiev in the 7th Symphony. Everywhere else, Barshai elicits performances that are truly "top drawer," with recorded sound to match. And how often will one go out of one's way to obtain recordings of Shostakovich's 2nd and 3rd Symphonies on a full-price label? Not often at all, meaning that most people miss these two works entirely. Not that they are Shostakovich at his best (particularly with their "agitprop" finales), but I must confess that there are some pleasant surprises in the early movements of the Shostakovich 2nd Symphony, written during his most "experimental" phase and sounding quite like Charles Ives in places: "Gorky Park in the Dark" might be a clever way of putting matters.

Those already having good collections of the symphonies are probably already aware of this bargain box, and will get it (or have already gotten it) just for its comprehensiveness and uniformity of interpretation and quality. Those just starting out to discover Shostakovich and his symphonies could hardly do better than acquire this bargain box: For about what one would normally pay for just three or four of the symphonies on full-price labels, you can have the full set of works by Barshai, and begin your journey comfortable with the fact that these are authoritative performances by an acknowledged Shostakovich master. [ posted June 30, 2003 ]
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 04, 2007, 11:55:22 AM
Quote from: donwyn on May 03, 2007, 08:24:19 PM
Yes, judging by the recorded evidence, there is no single 'correct' Russian approach to these works.

I agree. In the end, we really only have our opinions, right? If we stick to saying what we like or what don't like, we absolutely can't be wrong. If I say I love Kondrashin's work in Shostakovich, no one can tell me that I don't like it. This statement is an opinion, but it is also a fact. Its only when people make that jump from I love Kondrashin's DSCH to "Kondrashin's DSCH is how it should be done" or "anyone other than Kondrashinin DSCH is a knucklehead" that we run into problems. Sure, it can be argued that that these are also opinions, but it isn't also fact. To me that the difference. As you say, there is no one "correct" way to approach these works. 

In a similar way, I find it very strange when someone tells me that they don't like pizza or ice cream, but that certainly doesn't make that person wrong.  :)   
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 04, 2007, 11:57:53 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 04, 2007, 11:45:28 AM
Here is a review posted at amazon by an esteemed friend no longer with us:


In virtually every way (including performance and sonics), these Barshai recordings are highly competitive, and, as an integral complete set, are topped only by the Haitink set (at considerably higher cost).

One problem with a symphony-by-symphony approach is that you miss the full, cumulative effect of the entire cycle, in all of its grandeur (or all of its morass) . . . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 04, 2007, 12:00:29 PM
Quote from: George on May 04, 2007, 11:55:22 AM
Its only when people make that jump from I love Kondrashin's DSCH to "Kondrashin's DSCH is how it should be done" or "anyone other than Kondrashinin DSCH is a knucklehead" that we run into problems.

Or when someone presents opinion as fact  . . . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Bunny on May 04, 2007, 12:10:59 PM
Quote from: George on May 04, 2007, 11:17:05 AM
Just curious: do you have the early Melodiya issue, the Aulos one, or the most recent Melodiya issue with the red eyeglasses on the cover?

The Aulos set. It looks like this:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/4137S41RC9L._AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 04, 2007, 12:11:23 PM
Interesting that Bob Z preferred the Haitink Eighth to Barshai, I thought!  (No, I haven't heard Barshai in the Eighth.)

And I admit I am tickled that his favorites in the Tenth are both Jansons and von Karajan, where of these two, I find it very easy to Choose One™  ;)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 04, 2007, 12:18:47 PM
(pictured below: Karl with his anti-Karajan mallet . . . . . .)

(http://www.bobcongdon.net/images/sledgehammer.jpg)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Bunny on May 04, 2007, 12:19:37 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 04, 2007, 11:21:37 AM
The Barshai was actually my first complete cycle of the Shostakovich Symphonies. To this day, I have never had any qualms with the sonics.

I have the Barshai (my first set), Mravinsky, Kondrashin, Rozhdestvensky and Maxim Shostakovich.  Of all of them, the Maxim Shostakovich has the best sound quality with the Barshai a very, very close second.  The Kondrashin sounds a bit better than the Mravinsky and Rozhdestvensky which have very indifferent sound quality.  Although the Soviet system may have funded the arts, their recording science was not really up to commercial Western standards.  I'm not sure that there is any way to completely clean up the old recordings.  Of course, who knows what wizardry Barrington Coupe might be able to do if he gets  his hands on them. >:D 
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 04, 2007, 12:19:55 PM
Quote from: Bunny on May 04, 2007, 12:10:59 PM
The Aulos set. It looks like this:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/4137S41RC9L._AA240_.jpg)

RussianDVD.com has that on sale for $79.99 with free shipping . . . . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 04, 2007, 12:23:24 PM
Quote from: Drasko on May 02, 2007, 03:31:50 AM
Aulos is from 2003, I think, and bespectacled Melodiya is from 2006. Musicweb is refering to previous Melodiya release. 

Anyone know who's got the best price on the newer Melodiya set?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 04, 2007, 12:28:04 PM
Quote from: George on May 04, 2007, 12:23:24 PM
Anyone know who's got the best price on the newer Melodiya set?

RussianDVD has both the new and old priced at $79,99 . . . . . . best I've found so far . . . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 04, 2007, 12:30:49 PM
I've recently heard the Haitink (No. 2, 10, 15), with the help of a good friend. I find it strange that so many that praise Barshai also are fond of the Haitink. The latter was far too dry for me. The Haitink sounded over-dramatic, and really lacking in the sponteniety that I love about the Barshai. They are so radically differnt approaches. Hatink fell off my to buy list almost as fast as it got there in the first place.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 04, 2007, 12:32:52 PM
Quote from: D Minor on May 04, 2007, 12:28:04 PM
RussianDVD has both the new and old priced at $79,99 . . . . . . best I've found so far . . . . . .

I only saw the Aulos. I have to check that out again, thanks.


George (who will soon go deeper into debt)  >:D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 04, 2007, 12:35:22 PM
Quote from: George on May 04, 2007, 12:32:52 PM
I only saw the Aulos. I have to check that out again, thanks.


George (who will soon go deeper into debt)  >:D

Whoa, take it easy, George!  :D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 04, 2007, 12:35:42 PM
Quote from: George on May 04, 2007, 12:32:52 PM
I only saw the Aulos. I have to check that out again, thanks.


George (who will soon go deeper into debt)  >:D

My, thats pricey.  :-\
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Bunny on May 04, 2007, 12:38:38 PM
That's where I found it when it was first released; btw the price was higher then.  I suppose the price on that is reduced because the newer set which includes some concertos is now available at the same price I paid for that.  I'll bet that new set has the same remasterings.  If they had remastered again, with all the new material included, they would have asked a steeper price.

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 04, 2007, 12:39:26 PM

To be clear, I will be 100% out of debt in one year. If I purchase the Kondrashin, I'll increase my monthly payment by $7.50 or something, that way I'll still be debt free. the card I have is interest free until next April.  8)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 04, 2007, 12:40:59 PM
Quote from: Bunny on May 04, 2007, 12:38:38 PM
That's where I found it when it was first released; btw the price was higher then.  I suppose the price on that is reduced because the newer set which includes some concertos is now available at the same price I paid for that.  I'll bet that new set has the same remasterings.  If they had remastered again, with all the new material included, they would have asked a steeper price.



The Amazon review of the Melodiya claims that it was remastered using the original tapes. Plus $80 isn't exactly a steal.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 04, 2007, 12:41:59 PM
Quote from: Bunny on May 04, 2007, 12:38:38 PM
That's where I found it when it was first released; btw the price was higher then.  I suppose the price on that is reduced because the newer set which includes some concertos is now available at the same price I paid for that.  I'll bet that new set has the same remasterings.  If they had remastered again, with all the new material included, they would have asked a steeper price.



The new set has flimsy cardboard packaging/boxing and paper sleeves . . . . . . so that helps keep the price down . . . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Harry on May 04, 2007, 12:52:59 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 04, 2007, 12:30:49 PM
I've recently heard the Haitink (No. 2, 10, 15), with the help of a good friend. I find it strange that so many that praise Barshai also are fond of the Haitink. The latter was far too dry for me. The Haitink sounded over-dramatic, and really lacking in the sponteniety that I love about the Barshai. They are so radically differnt approaches. Hatink fell off my to buy list almost as fast as it got there in the first place.

Steve my friend think again.  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 04, 2007, 01:05:33 PM
Quote from: Harry on May 04, 2007, 12:52:59 PM
Steve my friend think again.  :)

I may listen to more of it, but I doubt it will have any significant impact on my purchasing decision. It lacked the needed enthusiasm. Much too sterile for my liking.  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Harry on May 04, 2007, 01:20:21 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 04, 2007, 01:05:33 PM
I may listen to more of it, but I doubt it will have any significant impact on my purchasing decision. It lacked the needed enthusiasm. Much too sterile for my liking.  :)

Well maybe when you are older, and have heard as much as I, you will find the true merits of Haitink.
Tis not sterile at all, but that is beside the point now.
Barshai is also a very good choice. :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 04, 2007, 01:25:30 PM
Quote from: Harry on May 04, 2007, 01:20:21 PM
Well maybe when you are older, and have heard as much as I, you will find the true merits of Haitink.
Tis not sterile at all, but that is beside the point now.
Barshai is also a very good choice. :)

While Haitink isn't me preference for a great many works, I can appreciate his stylings, too. I just dont appreciate his Shostakovich interpretations. But, it may, come with repeated listening, or it may not.

Either way, I'm glad we are of a similar mind when it comes to the Barshai

Are those the two that you own, Barshai? Or, do you own the Kondrashin as well?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Harry on May 04, 2007, 01:38:23 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 04, 2007, 01:25:30 PM
While Haitink isn't me preference for a great many works, I can appreciate his stylings, too. I just dont appreciate his Shostakovich interpretations. But, it may, come with repeated listening, or it may not.

Either way, I'm glad we are of a similar mind when it comes to the Barshai

Are those the two that you own, Barshai? Or, do you own the Kondrashin as well?

I have the Jansons/Haitink/Barshai.
Kondrashin is not my thing.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Danny on May 04, 2007, 01:38:56 PM
Quote from: Michel on May 04, 2007, 05:41:01 AM
I've got this and find others more satisfying. I will return to it, though, in the survey I am currently undertaking. My biggest problem, despite this however, is actually that I don't much like the symphony!

The Tenth is probably my favorite symphony! ;D

Both of the Karajan versions are outstanding (I prefer the '82, though).  I think the Haitnik one is excellent, too, and has excellent orchestration with a good balance among the various instruments.  I don't know if I prefer it to the HVK versions, but it is indeed a marvellous interpretation.   :)

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Harry on May 04, 2007, 01:41:10 PM
Quote from: Danny on May 04, 2007, 01:38:56 PM
The Tenth is probably my favorite symphony! ;D

Both of the Karajan versions are outstanding (I prefer the '82, though).  I think the Haitnik one is excellent, too, and has excellent orchestration with a good balance among the various instruments.  I don't know if I prefer it to the HVK versions, but it is indeed a marvellous interpretation.   :)



Most interesting my friend, I am glad you like the Karajan's too! :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 04, 2007, 01:44:35 PM
Quote from: Danny on May 04, 2007, 01:38:56 PM
The Tenth is probably my favorite symphony! ;D

Both of the Karajan versions are outstanding (I prefer the '82, though).  I think the Haitnik one is excellent, too, and has excellent orchestration with a good balance among the various instruments.  I don't know if I prefer it to the HVK versions, but it is indeed a marvellous interpretation.   :)



I envy you, Danny, as I'm still on the hunt for the perfect 10th. I, too enjoy Karajan, but some technical issues prevent me from issueing the superlative.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Danny on May 04, 2007, 01:47:13 PM
Quote from: Harry on May 04, 2007, 01:41:10 PM
Most interesting my friend, I am glad you like the Karajan's too! :)

HVK is one of my favorites--guilty as charged!   ;D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Danny on May 04, 2007, 01:48:44 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 04, 2007, 01:44:35 PM
I envy you, Danny, as I'm still on the hunt for the perfect 10th. I, too enjoy Karajan, but some technical issues prevent me from issueing the superlative.

I'll still keep looking for great versions of the Tenth, Steve.  No reason to stop! (especially for a piece I place in my 10).
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 04, 2007, 02:06:57 PM
Thanks, Danny! Along with the 15th, my two favourite Shostakovich Symphonies.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: sonic1 on May 04, 2007, 05:19:33 PM
Can we post our favorite versions of each symphony? It would be great to compare everyone's choices.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 04, 2007, 06:20:35 PM
Quote from: George on May 04, 2007, 11:55:22 AM
I agree. In the end, we really only have our opinions, right? If we stick to saying what we like or what don't like, we absolutely can't be wrong. If I say I love Kondrashin's work in Shostakovich, no one can tell me that I don't like it. This statement is an opinion, but it is also a fact. Its only when people make that jump from I love Kondrashin's DSCH to "Kondrashin's DSCH is how it should be done" or "anyone other than Kondrashinin DSCH is a knucklehead" that we run into problems. Sure, it can be argued that that these are also opinions, but it isn't also fact. To me that the difference. As you say, there is no one "correct" way to approach these works. 

That's how it should play out, of course.

Events conspire, however... ;D

QuoteIn a similar way, I find it very strange when someone tells me that they don't like pizza or ice cream, but that certainly doesn't make that person wrong.  :)   

Rank snobbery!!

;D


Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 04, 2007, 07:48:47 PM
Quote from: sonic1 on May 04, 2007, 05:19:33 PM
Can we post our favorite versions of each symphony? It would be great to compare everyone's choices.

Yes, I think thats a wonderful idea. I've only now received my copy of the Kondrashin, so I may be revising this list. As of right now, I'm reveling in a new complete cycle of the Sibelius Symphonies, so my review of the Kondrashin will be forthcoming.

I'll gladly post my revised list soon!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 05, 2007, 05:48:41 AM
Quote from: donwyn on May 04, 2007, 06:20:35 PM
Rank snobbery!!

;D


*scratches Don off the guest list for my next pizza party*  ::) 



;D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 05, 2007, 06:21:27 AM
Quote from: George on May 05, 2007, 05:48:41 AM

*scratches Don off the guest list for my next pizza party*  ::) 
;D

Oops...I gave the wrong impression.

I meant to say (jokingly) it's rank snobbery for someone to dismiss pizza/ice cream. ;D


Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 05, 2007, 06:22:22 AM
Quote from: donwyn on May 05, 2007, 06:21:27 AM
Oops...I gave the wrong impression.

I meant to say (jokingly) it's rank snobbery for someone to dismiss pizza/ice cream. ;D

Ok, I'll pencil you back in.  ;D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 05, 2007, 06:23:32 AM
So what does your 'bucket' of Firsts look like, George?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 05, 2007, 06:24:54 AM
Quote from: George on May 05, 2007, 06:22:22 AM
Ok, I'll pencil you back in.  ;D

*Whew*

;D


Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 05, 2007, 06:26:24 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 05, 2007, 06:23:32 AM
So what does your 'bucket' of Firsts look like, George?

Its more of a teaspoon, actually. I have only Rozhdestvensky on Moscow studio archives. 
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 05, 2007, 06:28:04 AM
Do you want to hold off until the sets you've ordered come rolling in? :-)

And viz. "teaspoon" -- delightfully turned!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 05, 2007, 06:31:12 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 05, 2007, 06:28:04 AM
Do you want to hold off until the sets you've ordered come rolling in? :-)

I actually haven't ordered one, though Kondrashin will surely be next.

I don't expect the discussion to be that organized anyway, so I will listen to my #1 over the weekend and post my findings. I love the interpretation, but don't know it well enough to say anything specific yet.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 05, 2007, 06:34:06 AM
Speaking of 1sts, my Kondrashin has finally arrived. I'm unwrapping as we speak. First up, the 1st symphony, of coursse. After that, I'll just give Jansons and Barshai a listen for comparision....  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 05, 2007, 06:57:39 AM
My Firsts:

Lopez-Cobos, Cincinnati
Ancerl, Cz Phil
Barshai, WDR
Bernstein, CSO


Will report, but gradually :-)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 05, 2007, 06:58:24 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 05, 2007, 06:57:39 AM
My Firsts:

Lopez-Cobos, Cincinnati
Ancerl, Cz Phil
Barshai, WDR
Bernstein, CSO


Will report, but gradually :-)

Karl, how is dear old Lenny with this one?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 05, 2007, 07:02:19 AM
Quote from: Steve on May 05, 2007, 06:58:24 AM
Karl, how is dear old Lenny with this one?

I should speak to more nuts and bolts, but my initial answer is, just a little "big-boned" . . . fine sound, enjoyable reading, just a little on the "grand" side, perhaps.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 05, 2007, 07:05:56 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 05, 2007, 07:02:19 AM
I should speak to more nuts and bolts, but my initial answer is, just a little "big-boned" . . . fine sound, enjoyable reading, just a little on the "grand" side, perhaps.

Still with that mighty CSO behind you, its hard not to sound a tad 'grand'. I may look into this one. How's he handle the slow movement?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 05, 2007, 07:08:28 AM
Stand by!  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 05, 2007, 07:14:47 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 05, 2007, 06:57:39 AM
My Firsts:

Lopez-Cobos, Cincinnati
Ancerl, Cz Phil
Barshai, WDR
Bernstein, CSO


Will report, but gradually :-)

No Jansons, Karl?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: not edward on May 05, 2007, 07:15:43 AM
I only have Ancerl and Barshai, but I guess a comparative listening might be interesting.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 05, 2007, 08:03:57 AM
Quote from: sonic1 on May 04, 2007, 05:19:33 PM
Can we post our favorite versions of each symphony? It would be great to compare everyone's choices.

Okay...you first  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 05, 2007, 08:09:08 AM
Alright, I've just finished the Kondrashin 1st. While the sound is less than spectacular, certainly a great deal more  impatient and energetic than either the Jansons or the Barshai. Perhaps, a little frantic for my taste at times, but it makes it's point rather quickly. Overall, Kondrashin really does a fantastic job with this symphony. I hope the rest are as inticing. Right now, I'm going to put on the Jansons for a comparison.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Don on May 05, 2007, 08:16:11 AM
The firsts I own:

Haitink/Decca
Jarvi/Chandos
Rattle/EMI
Temirkanov/RCA
Skrowaczewski/Halle
Bernstein/DG
Barshai/Brilliant
Jurowski/PentaTone
Kondrashin/Aulos
Masur/LPO
Caetani/Arts
Sanderling/Berlin Classics
Rozhdestvensky/Moscow Studio Archives
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 05, 2007, 08:18:14 AM
My, that's an impressive list, Don. Any favourites?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Don on May 05, 2007, 08:22:09 AM
Quote from: Steve on May 05, 2007, 08:18:14 AM
My, that's an impressive list, Don. Any favourites?

Kondrashin (tops)
Sanderling
Barshai
Bernstein
Rozhdestvensky
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 05, 2007, 08:23:04 AM
Quote from: Don on May 05, 2007, 08:22:09 AM
Kondrashin (tops)
Sanderling
Barshai
Bernstein
Rozhdestvensky

I've just now listened to the Kondrashin for the first time. My what energy!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Don on May 05, 2007, 08:24:12 AM
Quote from: Steve on May 05, 2007, 08:23:04 AM
I've just now listened to the Kondrashin for the first time. My what energy!

Yes, the energy is amazing.  Best of all, it isn't a well-buttoned form.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 05, 2007, 08:28:05 AM
Quote from: Don on May 05, 2007, 08:24:12 AM
Yes, the energy is amazing.  Best of all, it isn't a well-buttoned form.

Yes, loose threads abound!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 05, 2007, 10:09:31 AM
Quote from: Steve on May 05, 2007, 08:09:08 AM
Alright, I've just finished the Kondrashin 1st.

Could we have the timings for that one?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 05, 2007, 11:48:20 AM
Quote from: George on May 05, 2007, 10:09:31 AM
Could we have the timings for that one?

Sorry, George, I'm not actually in my room right now. I'm at a local cafe. I will post them as soon as I return.  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 05, 2007, 11:49:20 AM
Quote from: Steve on May 05, 2007, 11:48:20 AM
Sorry, George, I'm not actually in my room right now. I'm at a local cafe. I will post them as soon as I return.  :)

Thanks.  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 05, 2007, 01:34:41 PM
Lopez-Cobos, Cincinnati

Excellently played, and there is a cleanness and transparency (both in the sonics and the performance) which is part of what, for me, means excitement (so long as the music itself is exciting, of course).  This was the recording by which I first got well acquainted with the piece.  I don't believe that this means that it's the recording to which I expect all subsequent recordings to sound similar :-) . . . but it has always felt to me a faithful and stimulating account of the score, and its merits have held up well as I have listened to other recordings.


Ancerl, Cz Phil

Good sound, though slightly dated (a bit more so than a number of other Ancerl Gold Edition recordings I've heard).  Nothing fatal, only there are moments (such as the measure of divided basses / divided celli/ divided firsts and seconds, five bars before the Allegro molto of the last movement) one dreams of such an account of the piece favored by the sonic advantages of the Lopez-Cobos, for instance.  Something I should mention, which I have gotten used to discounting in favor of other benefits of these Ancerl & al. recordings of the Cz Phil:  the flavor of the winds is a bit different, there's often a little more 'flexibility' in some of the woodwinds (not reaching the degree to be called a warble), and there are times when the brass tone is not so solid as I tend, what?, to be used to, or to prefer, or whatever;  nonetheless, overall and 95% of the time, the tone is good, and certainly markedly better than some vintage Russian orchestra recordings I have heard, e.g.

The second movement is especially interesting.  The opening Allegro is nicely driven, just half a notch perhaps faster than in the Lopez-Cobos, but very excitingly 'locked in' and not a runaway train.  It seems to be something of a liberty (though Ancerl makes it work) but he takes the Meno mosso (where the flutes start in the repeated perfect fifths) a bit under tempo -- it feels almost eighty-ish to the quarter, rather than the 100 marked.  But the contrast to the opening material, the return to the first theme in the slower tempo, and the subsequent accelerando back to Tempo I, are all very nice.

Should say here that both Lopez-Cobos and Ancerl start that accelerando a few bars before it is notated in the score;  they both make it fit the character.


Barshai, WDR

First off the sound environment is more resonant than in any of the other recordings I've heard.  That does not make any of these others less 'warm', but there are quite a few points in the Barshai where things get muddy, to the disadvantage of a very nicely colored score (the eight-part string choir measure I mentioned above, for instance, hardly seems like an event here).

As with the Presto of the Ninth Symphony I mentioned earlier, there are half a dozen places, perhaps, where things don't sound together, or under control, or either, and given the cloudy acoustics, there's a bit more mush than I like.  A particularly 'fuzzy' moment -- at a point where you really don't want fuzz -- is five bars before the end of the piece.  The four-bar tutti sustained chord has just cut off, and the trumpets, trombones, tuba and side drum come in;  the brass seem all together enough, but they and the side drum don't quite match.

(These is by no means a general problem;  the synchronization of the two clarinets, strings and cymbals at the Allegro molto of the last movement is above reproach, for instance.)

One instance of particularly mourning the 'cloud':  the piano trills in octaves accompanying the horn solo in a Meno mosso section of the last movement get sort of swallowed up.

Oh!  And peculiarly, of these four recordings, Barshai is the only one to rush the Lento.


Bernstein, CSO

In many ways a powerful reading, partly just because of the sound of the band and the quality of the recording.  There are a couple of characterizations which seem a but unorthodox on Bernstein's part (perhaps a bit more like Mahler -- or even, a bit more like the Fourth or Seventh Symphony -- than like Shostakovich the wunderkind at the Leningrad Conservatory) but they carry off well, all the same.  The march-like tune in the first theme group of the first movement (clarinet solo against low strings beating time) is a little more ponderous and menacing, than like a "Symphony-Grotesque";  and Lenny gives the waltzing second theme an expanded, nigh-unto-fin-de-siecle lilt, which is unlike any other reading I've heard in this piece.

Bernstein makes more of the tutti sections of this predominantly chamber-textured symphony than the other three in my mini-survey, but the effect is organic, never excessive.  This is one of those Bernstein interpretations (like the Sibelius Sixth with the NY Phil) which, if I cannot quite endorse some of the decisions in principle, the performance itself is justification enough.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 05, 2007, 01:44:58 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 05, 2007, 07:14:47 AM
No Jansons, Karl?

No, I haven't heard Jansons in this, yet.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 05, 2007, 02:04:23 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 05, 2007, 08:09:08 AM
Alright, I've just finished the Kondrashin 1st. While the sound is less than spectacular,

Please describe the sonics (I assume that you have the newest remastered version?). Are the sonics a distraction?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 05, 2007, 02:55:25 PM
Quote from: D Minor on May 05, 2007, 02:04:23 PM
Please describe the sonics (I assume that you have the newest remastered version?). Are the sonics a distraction?

I friend of mine owns one of the original discs containing the 1st Symphony, and he was just mortified by the poor sound quality. The only reason that I bothered with these was that they have been remastered. The sound is significanty improved over the original. This is especially important given the manner in which these recordings where performed. Kondrashin is exciting, and seems desperate to leave his mark on these works. The brass is nothing short of phenominal- with the improved sound, I can feel the magnificence of Kondrashin. This performance is faster than I would normally go for, but he manages not to sacrafice much in the means of quality. While this lacks the depth or intimacy of the Jansons, it succeeds elswhwere. While I would probably stick with the Jansons for the slow movements, its in the faster places where he shines. He injects a sense of urgency that just never was there for me. These recordngs are dymanic, but always deliberate.

Sound is still less than optimal. However, it is no longer a obstacle in the way of being able to appreciate this excellent conducting. Quite amazing.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 05, 2007, 02:58:52 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 05, 2007, 02:55:25 PM
I friend of mine owns one of the original discs containing the 1st Symphony, and he was just mortified by the poor sound quality. The only reason that I bothered with these was that they have been remastered. The sound is significanty improved over the original. This is especially important given the manner in which these recordings where performed. Kondrashin is exciting, and seems desperate to leave his mark on these works. The brass is nothing short of phenominal- with the improved sound, I can feel the magnificence of Kondrashin. This performance is faster than I would normally go for, but he manages not to sacrafice much in the means of quality. While this lacks the depth or intimacy of the Jansons, it succeeds elswhwere. While I would probably stick with the Jansons for the slow movements, its in the faster places where he shines. He injects a sense of urgency that just never was there for me. These recordngs are dymanic, but always deliberate.

Sound is still less than optimal. However, it is no longer a obstacle in the way of being able to appreciate this excellent conducting. Quite amazing.

Thanks for that, Steve. So you have the box with the red eyglasses on the front (11CD's), or the Aulos release (10 CD's)?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 05, 2007, 03:43:07 PM
Quote from: George on May 05, 2007, 02:58:52 PM
Thanks for that, Steve. So you have the box with the red eyglasses on the front (11CD's), or the Aulos release (10 CD's)?

The newly remasterd, 11CD set with the eyeglasses.

Might I add, that the packaging qualtity was extremely poor. The whole unit seems very flimsy.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Don on May 05, 2007, 05:21:56 PM
I'm a little surprised at the skepticism some have about the sound quality of the Kondrashin set.  I'll take it on faith that the newly remastered set has better sound than the Aulos or even earlier sets.  However, I've not had any problem with the sound quality on the Aulos set, finding that the performances easily overcome sonic limitations.  Cortot, Richter, Oistrakh, Casals, Toscanini, etc. all overcome sound deficiencies; Kondrashin is on this level also.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 05, 2007, 05:49:49 PM
Quote from: Don on May 05, 2007, 05:21:56 PM
I'm a little surprised at the skepticism some have about the sound quality of the Kondrashin set.  I'll take it on faith that the newly remastered set has better sound than the Aulos or even earlier sets.  However, I've not had any problem with the sound quality on the Aulos set, finding that the performances easily overcome sonic limitations.  Cortot, Richter, Oistrakh, Casals, Toscanini, etc. all overcome sound deficiencies; Kondrashin is on this level also.

I haven't actually heard much of the Aulos set beyond some online previews. It was a friend of mine who warned me against buying it because of the poor sound quality. So, I really can't be sure about the sonics on that set. I will say that there nearly every review that I have read about this new set speaks to some improvement in the sound. As far as I can tell, the sonics are still not optimal- but overall, they aren't an obstacle to enjoying the music. Sorry, I can't be more helpful on the matter.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Greta on May 05, 2007, 09:15:30 PM
I'm watching this thread as I don't have a Shosty set, in fact despite loving this composer, I'm not familiar with all his symphonies yet.  :o

I don't have the $$$ to spend on a cycle this month, but this summer I'm definitely going for one after I've thought about it. I have no idea who I'd like.

The 5th Symphony is one of my all-time favorites and I finally got to hear it live this year in a surprisingly great performance by our regional symphony. I also simply adore his Piano Concertos and lately have been spending time with the Fitzwilliam's Complete String Quartets. Brilliant stuff.

I may have a chance to borrow the Rostropovich set sometime, would it be an okay introduction?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Michel on May 05, 2007, 11:56:17 PM
Quote from: Don on May 05, 2007, 05:21:56 PM
I'm a little surprised at the skepticism some have about the sound quality of the Kondrashin set.  I'll take it on faith that the newly remastered set has better sound than the Aulos or even earlier sets.  However, I've not had any problem with the sound quality on the Aulos set, finding that the performances easily overcome sonic limitations.  Cortot, Richter, Oistrakh, Casals, Toscanini, etc. all overcome sound deficiencies; Kondrashin is on this level also.

Absolutely agree, Don. The obsession everyone is having over sonic's here is bizarre. Especially with regard to Barshai, as we don't go about suprised that a recent LSO release has "good sonics", so why should we with Barshai? Its a modern recording for christs sake (and yes I know they haven't mucked about with it like they used to in Russia) but that is what we should expect...although in saying this, I still think it is unbalanced - worse, in some places than lets say a pre-war recording (since a lot of those may have distortion, but at least they have balance, something the Barshai systemically lacks in places)


But regardless of all this, like you say, sometimes sonics don't matter and most of the time, they should only be considered a nice bonus. There are other things far more important.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Michel on May 06, 2007, 12:20:09 AM
Does anyone have any views on this box set generally? (as opposed to the conducting - ie, the sound, the quality of the release, etc?)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MRAVINSKY-Shostakovich-Symphonies-6CD-Box-MELODIYA-NEW_W0QQitemZ140114625953QQihZ004QQcategoryZ43585QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: SimonGodders on May 06, 2007, 12:41:27 AM
Hi Michel,

Tiny thread here:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,13452.0.html

Was listening to the 12th last night. As said before, the sound is a little 'agricultural' on some, partic. the 5th IIRC. Yet the intensity....Mravinsky just piles on the pressure in these works until you're pummelled into submission. Layer after layer, quite relentless interpretations. Therefore despite the sound, essential listening methinks.

:)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 06, 2007, 03:16:19 AM
Quote from: Steve on May 05, 2007, 02:55:25 PM
Sound is still less than optimal. However, it is no longer a obstacle in the way of being able to appreciate this excellent conducting. Quite amazing.

Thanks . . . . . . . That's pretty much what I was assuming . . . . . . .  8)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 06, 2007, 03:18:22 AM
Quote from: Steve on May 05, 2007, 03:43:07 PM
The newly remasterd, 11CD set with the eyeglasses.

Might I add, that the packaging qualtity was extremely poor. The whole unit seems very flimsy.

Did you purchase your Kondrashin set at Russiandvd.com for 79,99?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 06, 2007, 03:25:59 AM
Quote from: Michel on May 05, 2007, 11:56:17 PM
Sometimes sonics don't matter and most of the time, [sonics] should only be considered a nice bonus. There are other things far more important.

Quote from: Michel on May 06, 2007, 12:20:09 AM
Does anyone have any views on . . . . the sound, the quality of the release, etc?

So with Mravinsky, sonics/sound quality IS important; but with Barshai and Kondrashin, sonics/sound quality ISN'T important . . . . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 06, 2007, 06:01:13 AM
Quote from: D Minor on May 06, 2007, 03:18:22 AM
Did you purchase your Kondrashin set at Russiandvd.com for 79,99?

I did! Last night.  8)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 06, 2007, 06:04:56 AM
Quote from: D Minor on May 06, 2007, 03:25:59 AM
So with Mravinsky, sonics/sound quality IS important; but with Barshai and Kondrashin, sonics/sound quality ISN'T important . . . . . . .

To me, if the performance is superb (as with much of Richter's recordings or Serkin, Rachmaninov or Schnabel's historical recordings), then the sonics automatically become a secondary issue. If they are not superb, then issues like sound and price become more important.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Michel on May 06, 2007, 07:08:23 AM
Quote from: D Minor on May 06, 2007, 03:25:59 AM
So with Mravinsky, sonics/sound quality IS important; but with Barshai and Kondrashin, sonics/sound quality ISN'T important . . . . . . .

I wasn't referring to Sonics, I was referring to the quality of the transfers, etc.

And that does make a massive differance, because it is things like the transfer that seriously affect the balance, etc. And, moreover, the reason why I am interested in transfers, is really to ask the question, "is this the CD to get, or should I aim for another transfer?" - not questioning the performance itself. Like when you compare exactly the same performances between Naxos Historicalm and Pearl, for example.

So, despite what you think, you haven't caught me out! Although you probably don't understand this, as you dont' seem to have any idea of historical performance and transfers.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 06, 2007, 09:45:42 AM
Quote from: Michel on May 05, 2007, 11:56:17 PM
Absolutely agree, Don. The obsession everyone is having over sonic's here is bizarre. Especially with regard to Barshai, as we don't go about suprised that a recent LSO release has "good sonics", so why should we with Barshai? Its a modern recording for christs sake (and yes I know they haven't mucked about with it like they used to in Russia) but that is what we should expect...although in saying this, I still think it is unbalanced - worse, in some places than lets say a pre-war recording (since a lot of those may have distortion, but at least they have balance, something the Barshai systemically lacks in places)


But regardless of all this, like you say, sometimes sonics don't matter and most of the time, they should only be considered a nice bonus. There are other things far more important.

That's not what Don is saying, Michel.

And as far as "obsessed with sonics"...who's obsessed with sonics??

Not I.

As I've mentioned before my all-time favorite Shostakovich symphony recording is Koussevitzky's Boston Symphony recording of the 9th from 1947!

And it's on LP!!!!!!!

So, no, sonics isn't an obsession in these parts.



Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 06, 2007, 09:50:59 AM
Quote from: Michel on May 06, 2007, 07:08:23 AM
I wasn't referring to Sonics, I was referring to the quality of the transfers, etc.

And that does make a massive differance, because it is things like the transfer that seriously affect the balance, etc. And, moreover, the reason why I am interested in transfers, is really to ask the question, "is this the CD to get, or should I aim for another transfer?" - not questioning the performance itself. Like when you compare exactly the same performances between Naxos Historicalm and Pearl, for example.

So, despite what you think, you haven't caught me out! Although you probably don't understand this, as you dont' seem to have any idea of historical performance and transfers.

If sound doesn't matter then get any 'ol transfer you want! ;D ;D




Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Michel on May 07, 2007, 12:33:43 AM
What is he "not saying". I don't reference this post other than "absolutely agree". I then move on to make another point.

But to make it explicit: I absolutely agree, Don, who cares about sound when superb musianship is abundant?

Happy?  ;)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 07, 2007, 05:14:52 AM
Quote from: George on May 06, 2007, 06:01:13 AM
I did! Last night.  8)

We await your report! :-)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 07, 2007, 05:16:01 AM
Interesting discussion on 'sonics'.

Two of the matters important to my ears are:  how the musicians are playing;  and "depth of field" in the musical texture, whether I can hear (and how well I can hear) all that's going on, how well it is balanced, how together it all is.

As to how the musicians are playing, the sound quality of the recording itself is irrelevant, ironically – an analogy might be the composition of a photo, regardless of the condition of the print.

For the latter point, there are many factors which can spoil what might, for instance, be in other respects an outstanding performance:  poor balance on the part of the players, poor balance or otherwise faulty imaging in the micing or mixing, unflattering acoustics in the space.

In a profound sense, I don't care how exactly it went wrong, when I'm listening to a recording;  the important thing is, the recording is for whatever reason not "displaying" the piece and./or performance properly.  Figuring out just where the fault (or collective fault) lies, is a distant second, by me.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 07, 2007, 06:46:18 AM
Welcome, Greta!

Quote from: Greta on May 05, 2007, 09:15:30 PM
. . . I may have a chance to borrow the Rostropovich set sometime, would it be an okay introduction?

At least one neighbor has found it wanting in some respect. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,576.msg10801.html#msg10801)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 07, 2007, 07:35:42 AM
And one impression I had as I listened through my survey of firsts was Bob Z's frank remark at the outset of his review, that one could readily find favorite accounts of all the symphonies without reference to the Barshai.  Still, I confess myself pretty sturdily disappointed in the First here;  it is perhaps the sixth of those from the Barshai set that I've had occasion to listen to (including the Fourth, Seventh, Ninth, Tenth and Thirteenth), and of these, the account of the First seems to me below the mean.  FWIW, on one hand, I should not condemn the set for the lowest point on the curve (if it be the lowest);  on the other, it does seem like setting off on the wrong foot . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 07, 2007, 08:06:47 AM

I apologize to the rest of the group that I have not revisited and posted about my Rozhdesvensky DSCH #1. I shall do so this week.

Also, for those who are curious about RussianDVD.com as a seller of the Kondrashin, I can tell you that they are an impressive seller with outstanding customer service. My copy should be here by the end of the week, so I am obviously stoked.  8)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 07, 2007, 11:17:50 AM
I will add, having now listening to the both of them twice over, that the Jansons remains my favourite for the 1st. Somehow, Kondrashin does not seem to be able to capture my imagination in the way that that the former does. As energetic as the Kondrashin is, his conducting seems slightly distant (epecially in the slow movement) for me. Still, both are excellent performances.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 07, 2007, 01:20:43 PM
I might buy the Kondrashin cycle just for the kickass Execution of Stepan Razin

(http://history.wisc.edu/sommerville/351/351images/razin.jpg)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 07, 2007, 01:24:37 PM
Quote from: D Minor on May 07, 2007, 01:20:43 PM
I might buy the Kondrashin cycle just for the kickass Execution of Stepan Razin

(http://history.wisc.edu/sommerville/351/351images/razin.jpg)

(http://www.natespace.com/Chronicle_Art/pictures/Shostakovich.jpg)

;D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Michel on May 08, 2007, 12:02:19 PM
As promised here are my immediate thoughts on Shostakovich 8, a symphony I know well.

Haitink


This recording is dark, desolate, and deeply depressing - when you listen to the first movement you are convinced there can be no way out of the harrowing suffering that is assaulting your ears and unsettling your stomach.  This recording is a truly disturbing listening experience in a rich sound, with the amazing sonority of the Concertgebouw, that is unequalled on record.

There is a sense in this particular adagio that something truly awful has happened that is deeply tragic and most importantly, irrevocable. In my view,  this is the central element of this interpretation. In the Russians there is a greater struggle, a greater fight and suggestion of action and of war. In the Russian recordings there remains, despite all their ferocity, a glimmer of hope. In Haitink, it is disturbingly absent; you are presented with an already ruined world. I think Haitink consequently comes across as more thoughtful, since I think we can all admit that contemplating the past is by definition more of an intellectual exercise than firing a bullet from a trench! It is important to note, however, that this fact makes it no more a superior interpretation, just different. However, my personal view is that I find this approach more satisfying.

Even the typically more crass instruments, such as percussion - important in every Shostakoivch symphony - in Haitink sounds more interesting and ultimately more convincing. When used it sounds like gun shots and cannon fire flying across the canvas of the music in a hail of destruction. In the militaristic moments the drums sound more like sombre death march than they do simple military advances. The richness of sound also helps here, whereas there are moments in the Barshai, by contrast, that is sounds ugly. This could certainly be argued as being no bad thing, of course, in a symphony which can hardly be described as beautiful, and certainly not something to play to your children, but this difference is an important distinction nevertheless and one that I again find more satisfying in Haitink.

Barshai

Barshai strikes you immediately as more ferocious and more desperate than depressive. Its immediacy is apparent both in the pacing and in the coarseness, even rawness and grit, of the strings. This is intensified by the balance in the recording, which strongly favours the upper notes, despite what others in this thread have suggested. I would even go so far as to say that it is piercing in places that does not add to the music or the apparently desirable "fury", it instead creates a far less immersive and frankly more irritating experience. Despite this undoubted weakness, the more prominent upper strings do give the interpretation a strong sense of direction, and therefore hope and struggle, prevalent in the Russian recordings as explained in the Haitink review. This, in the rare but powerful moments in the symphony, make for more digestible reprises; in Haitink, on the other hand, no such release is offered. There is a stronger strong interplay  and differentiation between the upper and lower notes in Barshai whereas Haitink sounds more like a mass of darkness. For some, this might equate to sophistication and intelligence, (something normally more associated with a Haitink performance) but for me I think it makes Barshai seem superficial, a little disjointed, and a hundred times less immersive. And this is where Haitink excels; for even if there were flagrant mistakes in the Haitink recording, which thankfully there is not, you probably would not notice them because you are so gripped by the darkness and fear of the music.

One thing often said in favour of Barshai is his closeness to Shostakovich, and therefore immediate legitimacy of his interpretation. But if this symphony, along with the 7th, is, as Shostakovich said, his "requiem", then Barshai can never be considered the authoritative recording. For Barshai is nowhere near dark enough, and not close to being the thoughtful, stirring and deeply emotional turbulent account that you would expect from a requiem, especially if Shostakovich did one, that is delivered by Haitink in spades.

Jansons

I am going to keep my comments here brief, since I am not sure this recording, performed by the Pittsburgh symphony orchestra, should even be considered alongside Barshai or Haitink.

The adagio, the most important movement in this symphony, is grossly underplayed and powerless. It literally sounds whisperingly light; rather than being an oppressive and massive, total, thundering weight upon you, it seems instead like you are peering through a binocular from a thousand yards. Emotionally uninvolved does not convey the weaknesses strong enough, for the playing itself is substandard (though technically sufficient). Part of the reason is the simplistic playing, sure, but it is also the total lack of bass – and this is a conscious choice from Jansons, rather than an inherent orchestra weakness. Why he chooses to be so delicate is beyond me; for the outcome is impotent.

In sum, Barshai is undoubtedly good, but not as good as Haitink. If you want fiery rather than controlled and intense rather than depressing, I would choose a Russian over Haitink, but not Barshai. For Kondrashin and Mravinksy would probably supersede him in this respect (as I cannot say for sure yet as Virgin Megastore have yet to post my bloody Kondrashin box set and I have yet to revist Mravinsky). And other than this "fire", I fail to see what Barshai brings that Kondrashin would not do better. Haitink, on the other hand, is a different paradigm, and on some level incomparable. For what is better between the brutal stereotypical Russian recording and the thoughtful, beautifully disturbing account of Haitink is a matter of personal choice. But what is probably certain is that Haitink is unique, and Barshai is not, and the latter is probably going to be shadowed when that box set finally turns up, whereas Haitink cannot be beaten on his own turf. The only definite fact at this juncture is the total inferiority of Jansons.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Harry on May 08, 2007, 12:24:50 PM
I love reading your acount Michel, that first said.
But I contradict you opinion about Barshai, and at the same time agree with you about Haitink.
The sound is good, I checked that on my primary system, and if something would be wrong I should here that. But all is fine, with the Barshai in that respect. Must be your equipment then!
But in the end music is a subjective experience, and so are opinions.
So for what its worth I would say to anyone try before you buy.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 08, 2007, 12:52:28 PM
Quote from: Michel on May 08, 2007, 12:02:19 PM
As promised here are my immediate thoughts on Shostakovich 8, a symphony I know well.

In sum, Barshai is undoubtedly good, but not as good as Haitink. If you want fiery rather than controlled and intense rather than depressing, I would choose a Russian over Haitink, but not Barshai. For Kondrashin and Mravinksy would probably supersede him in this respect (as I cannot say for sure yet as Virgin Megastore have yet to post my bloody Kondrashin box set and I have yet to revist Mravinsky). And other than this "fire", I fail to see what Barshai brings that Kondrashin would not do better. Haitink, on the other hand, is a different paradigm, and on some level incomparable. For what is better between the brutal stereotypical Russian recording and the thoughtful, beautifully disturbing account of Haitink is a matter of personal choice. But what is probably certain is that Haitink is unique, and Barshai is not, and the latter is probably going to be shadowed when that box set finally turns up, whereas Haitink cannot be beaten on his own turf. The only definite fact at this juncture is the total inferiority of Jansons.


Thanks for your extensive post, Michel! I now await my Kondrashin box all the more eagerly.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 08, 2007, 12:53:17 PM
Thanks, Michel!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Robert on May 08, 2007, 01:10:38 PM
Quote from: George on May 08, 2007, 12:52:28 PM
Thanks for your extensive post, Michel! I now await my Kondrashin box all the more eagerly.

George
Some things in life are worth the wait....This is one of them.....
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 08, 2007, 03:58:59 PM
Quote from: Robert on May 08, 2007, 01:10:38 PM
George
Some things in life are worth the wait....This is one of them.....

(http://mousestitching.com/wp-content/plugins/more-smilies/graemlins/impatient.gif)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 10, 2007, 10:44:46 AM
Now, to be sure, I have Maksim Dmitriyevich's account of the First to fold into my summary, though I will wait until I can listen to it in the same conditions (i.e., on the home stereo) before commenting.

And whenever we get to Nos. 2 and 3, my work will be simple, since I have only Maksim Dmitriyevich and Barshai to compare on these works.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 10, 2007, 10:47:49 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 10, 2007, 10:44:46 AM
Now, to be sure, I have Maksim Dmitriyevich's account of the First to fold into my summary, though I will wait until I can listen to it in the same conditions (i.e., on the home stereo) before commenting.

And whenever we get to Nos. 2 and 3, my work will be simple, since I have only Maksim Dmitriyevich and Barshai to compare on these works.

Like Michael McDonald, I keep forgettin' to listen to my sole recording.

I feel certain that the arrival of my Kondrashin cycle will jump start me, though.  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Michel on May 10, 2007, 10:50:51 AM
Kondrashin

It finally came through the post, and with much anticipation I opened the packet....

What a disappointment.....

The box is the flimsiest, least professionally put together thing I have ever seen. Absolutely terrible. It came perfectly packed and yet it was still damaged. It is not an exaggeration to say that holding it, you are worried you are going to do so too enthusiastically and break it. The front of it opens with a little male part connecting into a hole to keep it closed that barely grips on and feels like it is going to spring open. The whole shell is atrocious and an absolutely disgrace and should these recordings be worth having, as I will go on to discuss, there is absolutely no point buying this abomination; get a friend to give you copies instead. You could probably design a makeshift box out of rice paper and it be more durable. But on to the recording....

The first movement opens with the quite  beautiful sound of the Moscow Philharmonic's strings. They strike a medium between the coarseness of the Barshai and the deep, rich warmth of the Concertebouw. They certainly have that stereotypical "Russian" sound that we think of. They also exaggerate the character that is often omnipresent in Shostakovich's music; they jump, shoot and dart about as though they are themselves alive, and with a menace and with a humour that the other recordings do not have. But does this colour make for a satisfying 8th? I am not so sure. It is certainly original, and out of the recordings surveyed thus far, the most noticeably different. However, the so called incredible intensity of these recordings makes for a muddled listen; Kondrashin quite frankly sounds out of control during some of the fast, intense moments even to the degree where it sounds amateurish. But while there are moments where this frenzy fails, it other areas it excels. The well known humour at the end of the third movement, where it consequently explodes, is possibly carried off the best on record. It is an absolute joy to hear. And these moments, where Kondrashin excels, do signal a validity to these recordings that may be proven by the Shostakovich quote you will read in a few paragraphs; for few capture the dark and the bright in the same way Kondrashin does.

And for this reason, despite the flaws, it does have a charm; there is something good about the recording that is hard to express. It may be that it sounds, despite Kondrashin's over zealous manipulation, sincere - after all, it sounds "Russian"; it, for reasons I cannot explain, sounds like "Shostakovich". And I think this is why it has captured the hearts and minds of a number of people on the board. It just sounds right.

If there is any point in a reviewer, however, it is to help people to spend their money wisely, and the box set that this comes in more than guarantees that I will not make the recommendation here. But if you want an "interesting" Shostakovich, which will no doubt incite strong opinions both in its favour and in its damnation, this is the one for you. For me, Kondrashin often goes too far, but he does try. And that human ambition is perhaps why he suits Shostakovich's deeply humanistic music so well, and it is why, being human, those that love these recordings will love them regardless of what I say!

NB. I am sending the box set straight back from where it came, for an immediate refund, due to the damage. I will not, however, ask for a replacement, as I will patiently wait for another reissue where it is released sensibly in a decent box. On another note, the sound is absolutely fantastic in this set, and the way they have been recorded do give them an impressive sense of atmosphere and presence; you do really feel like you are hearing the music live, which is a real benefit.

One final note on interpretation: I have taken this fabulous quote from Shostakovich from the inlay, that I think ought to be considered:

"This new work of mine is an attempt to glance at the future, after-war epoch. The eight symphony has a lot of inner conflicts, which are sometimes tragic and sometimes dramatic. But in general this work is optimistic and life-asserting...The Philosophic idea of my new work can be expressed briefly as following: Life is beautiful. All, what is dark in it, will disapear; while its beauty will triumph".

Certainly something to consider; as I struggle to be anything about harrowed by this symphony. But it does seem that Kondrashin, above anyone one else, has taken heed of this intention.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sean on May 10, 2007, 10:53:24 AM
Can't contribute too much re complete sets but here are my urgent recommendations for five symphonies, perhaps never surpassed (4, 6, & 14 here can change you whole life in fact)-

4 Ormandy
6 Berglund
10 Karajan
11 Berglund
14 Bernstein
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 10, 2007, 10:53:54 AM
Quote from: Michel on May 10, 2007, 10:50:51 AM
Kondrashin

It finally came through the post, and with much anticipation I opened the packet....

What a disappointment.....

The box is the flimsiest, least professionally put together thing I have ever seen. Absolutely terrible. It came perfectly packed and yet it was still damaged. It is not an exaggeration to say that holding it, you are worried you are going to do so too enthusiastically and break it. The front of it opens with a little male part connecting into a hole to keep it closed that barely grips on and feels like it is going to spring open. The whole shell is atrocious and an absolutely disgrace and should these recordings be worth having, as I will go on to discuss, there is absolutely no point buying this abomination; get a friend to give you copies instead. You could probably design a makeshift box out of rice paper and it be more durable. But on to the recording....


This might be another topic altogether, but I am willing to bet that someone knows where we can get a nice sturdy box like the ones you get from DG or Brilliant.

Anyone?  ???
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 10, 2007, 10:58:26 AM
Quote from: Sean on May 10, 2007, 10:53:24 AM
. . . my urgent recommendations for five symphonies, perhaps never surpassed [. . .]

4 Ormandy . . .

Sean, if this recording marks something special in your listening, it cannot be gainsaid, of course.  But I've heard this one, and I have two or three others which by my ears are notably better.

. . . but I get ahead of the series . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 10, 2007, 10:59:08 AM
Michel: Rice paper? Crikey  ;D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sean on May 10, 2007, 12:24:40 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 10, 2007, 10:58:26 AM
Sean, if this recording marks something special in your listening, it cannot be gainsaid, of course.  But I've heard this one, and I have two or three others which by my ears are notably better.

. . . but I get ahead of the series . . . .

The sound's a little dated now but it's demonic like I haven't heard elsewhere.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Robert on May 10, 2007, 12:46:21 PM
Quote from: Michel on May 10, 2007, 10:50:51 AM
Kondrashin

It finally came through the post, and with much anticipation I opened the packet....

What a disappointment.....

The box is the flimsiest, least professionally put together thing I have ever seen. Absolutely terrible. It came perfectly packed and yet it was still damaged. It is not an exaggeration to say that holding it, you are worried you are going to do so too enthusiastically and break it. The front of it opens with a little male part connecting into a hole to keep it closed that barely grips on and feels like it is going to spring open. The whole shell is atrocious and an absolutely disgrace and should these recordings be worth having, as I will go on to discuss, there is absolutely no point buying this abomination; get a friend to give you copies instead. You could probably design a makeshift box out of rice paper and it be more durable. But on to the recording....

The first movement opens with the quite  beautiful sound of the Moscow Philharmonic's strings. They strike a medium between the coarseness of the Barshai and the deep, rich warmth of the Concertebouw. They certainly have that stereotypical "Russian" sound that we think of. They also exaggerate the character that is often omnipresent in Shostakovich's music; they jump, shoot and dart about as though they are themselves alive, and with a menace and with a humour that the other recordings do not have. But does this colour make for a satisfying 8th? I am not so sure. It is certainly original, and out of the recordings surveyed thus far, the most noticeably different. However, the so called incredible intensity of these recordings makes for a muddled listen; Kondrashin quite frankly sounds out of control during some of the fast, intense moments even to the degree where it sounds amateurish. But while there are moments where this frenzy fails, it other areas it excels. The well known humour at the end of the third movement, where it consequently explodes, is possibly carried off the best on record. It is an absolute joy to hear. And these moments, where Kondrashin excels, do signal a validity to these recordings that may be proven by the Shostakovich quote you will read in a few paragraphs; for few capture the dark and the bright in the same way Kondrashin does.

And for this reason, despite the flaws, it does have a charm; there is something good about the recording that is hard to express. It may be that it sounds, despite Kondrashin's over zealous manipulation, sincere - after all, it sounds "Russian"; it, for reasons I cannot explain, sounds like "Shostakovich". And I think this is why it has captured the hearts and minds of a number of people on the board. It just sounds right.

If there is any point in a reviewer, however, it is to help people to spend their money wisely, and the box set that this comes in more than guarantees that I will not make the recommendation here. But if you want an "interesting" Shostakovich, which will no doubt incite strong opinions both in its favour and in its damnation, this is the one for you. For me, Kondrashin often goes too far, but he does try. And that human ambition is perhaps why he suits Shostakovich's deeply humanistic music so well, and it is why, being human, those that love these recordings will love them regardless of what I say!

NB. I am sending the box set straight back from where it came, for an immediate refund, due to the damage. I will not, however, ask for a replacement, as I will patiently wait for another reissue where it is released sensibly in a decent box. On another note, the sound is absolutely fantastic in this set, and the way they have been recorded do give them an impressive sense of atmosphere and presence; you do really feel like you are hearing the music live, which is a real benefit.

One final note on interpretation: I have taken this fabulous quote from Shostakovich from the inlay, that I think ought to be considered:

"This new work of mine is an attempt to glance at the future, after-war epoch. The eight symphony has a lot of inner conflicts, which are sometimes tragic and sometimes dramatic. But in general this work is optimistic and life-asserting...The Philosophic idea of my new work can be expressed briefly as following: Life is beautiful. All, what is dark in it, will disapear; while its beauty will triumph".

Certainly something to consider; as I struggle to be anything about harrowed by this symphony. But it does seem that Kondrashin, above anyone one else, has taken heed of this intention.
I have the set on le chant du monde...I am trying to figure out if it is the same performance...What are the timings of the five movements....
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Michel on May 10, 2007, 12:59:41 PM
Would it not be easier for me to tell you when it was recorded?

1967
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Robert on May 10, 2007, 01:05:36 PM
Quote from: Michel on May 10, 2007, 12:59:41 PM
Would it not be easier for me to tell you when it was recorded?

1967
thanks,  mine is 61....
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 10, 2007, 03:36:07 PM

Just got my Kondrashin today (the later one on Melodiya with the red eyeglasses on it. It was packed in a solid box, complete with styrofoam peanuts. Got it from Russian DVD.com.

The inner box was slightly torn underneath the plastic wrap, so it is not the fault of the seller. The packaging is indeed flimsy to say the least...

but so far (in Symphony 1) the performance kicks serious ass!! I was seriously frightened a moment ago. :o

The sound is clear and very fine IMO. From M Forever's description of the Aulos as being overfiltered, it is clear that this one is superior.

Run, don't walk my friends. This is fun, enjoyable stuff.  8)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: DavidW on May 10, 2007, 05:30:11 PM
George, the Aulos set did sound fuzzy, maybe I should try that Melodiya set sometime then huh?  Thanks for the remark. :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 10, 2007, 05:35:12 PM
Quote from: George on May 10, 2007, 03:36:07 PM
Just got my Kondrashin today (the later one on Melodiya with the red eyeglasses on it. It was packed in a solid box, complete with styrofoam peanuts. Got it from Russian DVD.com.

The inner box was slightly torn underneath the plastic wrap, so it is not the fault of the seller. The packaging is indeed flimsy to say the least...

but so far (in Symphony 1) the performance kicks serious ass!! I was seriously frightened a moment ago. :o

The sound is clear and very fine IMO. From M Forever's description of the Aulos as being overfiltered, it is clear that this one is superior.

Run, don't walk my friends. This is fun, enjoyable stuff.  8)


Glad to see that positive reaction, George. Since my set arrived nearly a week ago, I too have been enjoying it immensely, if only for the aforementioned 'wow' effect. Next stop, Mariss Jansons.  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 10, 2007, 05:35:41 PM
Quote from: DavidW on May 10, 2007, 05:30:11 PM
George, the Aulos set did sound fuzzy, maybe I should try that Melodiya set sometime then huh?  Thanks for the remark. :)

No problem. Plus, you get the VC #2 with Oistrakh, The Execution of Stephan Razin, The Sun Shines on our Motherland Cantata and October (symphonic poem). 
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Michel on May 10, 2007, 10:47:40 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 10, 2007, 05:35:12 PM
Glad to see that positive reaction, George. Since my set arrived nearly a week ago, I too have been enjoying it immensely, if only for the aforementioned 'wow' effect. Next stop, Mariss Jansons.  :)

You are going to be extremely disapointed.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 11, 2007, 04:13:59 AM
Quote from: George on May 10, 2007, 05:35:41 PM
No problem. Plus, you get the VC #2 with Oistrakh, The Execution of Stephan Razin, The Sun Shines on our Motherland Cantata and October (symphonic poem). 

October is a fine piece, and (it seems) generally off people's radar.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 11, 2007, 04:43:14 AM
Just to sign in on the Boxes On Arrival sub-thread  8) . . . .

My Maksim Dmitriyevich box arrived in a bubblewrap-lined envelope, which was a little too large for the box, and which looked only a little distressed from the journey (the shipper, in Long Island City, had not even thought to mark the envelope "Handle With Care").  If the parcel had been handled a bit more carefully, all the appropriate angles would have remained right angles  ::)

Opening the envelope, I found that one and a half edges of the box had folded slightly;  the sort of cosmetic flaw which, had I intended the set as a gift, for instance, would motivate me to demand a replacement.  As the set is simply for myself, though, I contented myself with verifying that all the discs themselves were in excellent condition.  If the envelope had been of a size better suited to the box, and if the box were not notably too deep for the number of discs plus booklet, there had been no problem.  As it is, the condition of the set is acceptable.  (Musically, I've been enjoying it so well, I simply have not cared a whit about the slight crush to the box.)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Harry on May 11, 2007, 04:48:20 AM
Its good to hear, you are delighted with it.
If you think its good enough, its good for me, and I will order it. :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 11, 2007, 06:08:12 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 11, 2007, 04:43:14 AM
Opening the envelope, I found that one and a half edges of the box had folded slightly;  the sort of cosmetic flaw which, had I intended the set as a gift, for instance, would motivate me to demand a replacement.  As the set is simply for myself, though, I contented myself with verifying that all the discs themselves were in excellent condition.  If the envelope had been of a size better suited to the box, and if the box were not notably too deep for the number of discs plus booklet, there had been no problem.  As it is, the condition of the set is acceptable.  (Musically, I've been enjoying it so well, I simply have not cared a whit about the slight crush to the box.)

My feeing about those bubble thingees is that they only seem to be effective for single discs, and even then are only effective when they fit fairly snug. If my Kondrashin had arrived in one of those, it would have been crushed like an empty milk carton.  :-\

It upsets me most because there are ways to ship all kinds of CD's and boxes without being damaged. Otherwise, how would they arrive to the brick and mortar stores intact? We shouldn't have to settle for poorer quality just because we order online.  :-\

Anyway, to get back on topic, I had to listen to Kondrashin's 2 and 3 last night, since the 1st was so enjoyable. I was not disappointed. His readings were deliciously tense and I am amazed at how good the sound is. This (the 11 disc set on Melodiya) clearly is the one to get if you want Kondrashin. I will refrain from more specific comments until my second time through the set.   
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 11, 2007, 06:43:09 AM
Just to follow up briefly . . . once I'd posted my experience, I thought, it can't hurt to try sending e-mail to Customer Service . . . they've gotten back to me promptly, and will make good.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 11, 2007, 06:44:14 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 11, 2007, 06:43:09 AM
Just to follow up briefly . . . once I'd posted my experience, I thought, it can't hurt to try sending e-mail to Customer Service . . . they've gotten back to me promptly, and will make good.

Good for you!

Who was the seller?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 11, 2007, 06:47:34 AM
ArkivMusic, George.

Schedule is a little hectic these weeks coming; not sure when I can do a proper "sit-down" with the Second and Third;  hopefully this weekend!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 17, 2007, 09:52:51 AM

After a great 4th, Kondrashin offered the first disappointment thus far, his 5th. He rushes too much IMO and sacrifices much of the beauty that other conductors find. I like his slow treatment of the coda, where he clearly understands the non-heroic nature of this conclusion. Rostropovich/LSO remains my favorite in this work. The sound in this one became a bother in spots, with shrill strings and even some sound breakups at some point.

Luckily, I have begun listening to Kondrashin's 6th and he seems to be right back on track.  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Bunny on May 17, 2007, 12:35:26 PM
Quote from: George on May 17, 2007, 09:52:51 AM
After a great 4th, Kondrashin offered the first disappointment thus far, his 5th. He rushes too much IMO and sacrifices much of the beauty that other conductors find. I like his slow treatment of the coda, where he clearly understands the non-heroic nature of this conclusion. Rostropovich/LSO remains my favorite in this work. The sound in this one became a bother in spots, with shrill strings and even some sound breakups at some point.

Luckily, I have begun listening to Kondrashin's 6th and he seems to be right back on track.  :)

On balance, I get more satisfaction from Kondrashin's Shosty than almost any other cycle.  There are those rare and wonderful individual recordings from others to make up for any deficiencies, though.

Here's one that really rocks and the sound quality is topnotch SACD multichannel:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/513M8glGvTL._SS400_.jpg)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 17, 2007, 12:46:01 PM
Quote from: Bunny on May 17, 2007, 12:35:26 PM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/513M8glGvTL._SS400_.jpg)

These are two of the most brilliant and insightful Shostakovich performances to come along in quite a while, and that's saying a lot given the excellence of the recent competition. Certainly if you're looking for this coupling, which is becoming a popular one, this is the disc to have. Yakov Kreizberg's account of the Fifth Symphony is simply the most grimly intense since Sanderling's (Berlin Classics). The first movement is implacably urgent and as architecturally cogent in its monothematic single-mindedness as any conductor has ever projected it. An aptly gruff and gawky scherzo precedes a very slow, hushed, and emotionally draining account of the magnificent Largo. Have you ever noticed that this movement uses no brass instruments at all, but still manages the most powerful climax in the entire symphony?

Kreizberg, like Sanderling, is absolutely convinced that the finale does not represent a "happy" ending. After an impressively portentous opening and a brooding central interlude, he grinds out the coda with as much relentless menace as the music can take, and then some. By the time the movement heaves its lacerated carcass through the final bars, the cessation of sound comes as a positive relief. Throughout, the Russian National Orchestra plays with 100 percent conviction, and PentaTone's sonics, whether in stereo or SACD surround, are extremely natural and well-balanced.

What makes this disc even more special is the fact that the Ninth Symphony is every bit as good. The first movement's deadpan humor comes across with perfect clarity and point. The ghostly waltz that follows has the same quiet intensity as the Fifth Symphony's Largo, while the scherzo demonstrates just how well Kreizberg has the orchestra on its collective toes. His account of the finale just might be the best on disc: he goes completely nuts in the recapitulation, with a freedom of tempo that the composer surely would have applauded, and the coda breezes by at a truly startling clip. It's at once the most hilarious as well as the most satisfying account of this movement to have appeared yet. Do not miss this release.  


--David Hurwitz, ClassicsToday.com
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 17, 2007, 12:48:30 PM
I must keep an eye out for that one.  :D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 17, 2007, 12:49:58 PM
Quote from: George on May 17, 2007, 12:48:30 PM
I must keep an eye out for that one.  :D

God, this thread is getting expensive . . . . . . .

Karl should insert a warning label in the OP . . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 17, 2007, 12:51:12 PM
 ;D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 17, 2007, 01:41:45 PM
Quote from: D Minor on May 17, 2007, 12:46:01 PM
These are two of the most brilliant and insightful Shostakovich performances to come along in quite a while, and that's saying a lot given the excellence of the recent competition. Certainly if you're looking for this coupling, which is becoming a popular one, this is the disc to have. Yakov Kreizberg's account of the Fifth Symphony is simply the most grimly intense since Sanderling's (Berlin Classics). The first movement is implacably urgent and as architecturally cogent in its monothematic single-mindedness as any conductor has ever projected it. An aptly gruff and gawky scherzo precedes a very slow, hushed, and emotionally draining account of the magnificent Largo. Have you ever noticed that this movement uses no brass instruments at all, but still manages the most powerful climax in the entire symphony?

Kreizberg, like Sanderling, is absolutely convinced that the finale does not represent a "happy" ending. After an impressively portentous opening and a brooding central interlude, he grinds out the coda with as much relentless menace as the music can take, and then some. By the time the movement heaves its lacerated carcass through the final bars, the cessation of sound comes as a positive relief. Throughout, the Russian National Orchestra plays with 100 percent conviction, and PentaTone's sonics, whether in stereo or SACD surround, are extremely natural and well-balanced.

What makes this disc even more special is the fact that the Ninth Symphony is every bit as good. The first movement's deadpan humor comes across with perfect clarity and point. The ghostly waltz that follows has the same quiet intensity as the Fifth Symphony's Largo, while the scherzo demonstrates just how well Kreizberg has the orchestra on its collective toes. His account of the finale just might be the best on disc: he goes completely nuts in the recapitulation, with a freedom of tempo that the composer surely would have applauded, and the coda breezes by at a truly startling clip. It's at once the most hilarious as well as the most satisfying account of this movement to have appeared yet. Do not miss this release.  


--David Hurwitz, ClassicsToday.com


Wonderful, yet another Shostakovich Cycle to tempt me. My poor wallet is wailing...  :-\
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 17, 2007, 01:59:18 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 17, 2007, 01:41:45 PM
Wonderful, yet another Shostakovich Cycle to tempt me. My poor wallet is wailing...  :-\

Has Kreizberg recorded the entire cycle?  If so, I want a full report . . . . . . .  :D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Don on May 17, 2007, 02:07:30 PM
Quote from: D Minor on May 17, 2007, 01:59:18 PM
Has Kreizberg recorded the entire cycle?  If so, I want a full report . . . . . . .  :D

No.  PentaTone appears to be putting out a cycle of Shostakovich symphonies with different conductors for each release. 

So far we have:
Syms. 1 and 6/Jurowski
Syms. 5 and 9/You know who
Sym. 8/Berglund
Sym. 11/Pletnev

What binds these together is the Russian National Orchestra.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 17, 2007, 02:15:25 PM
Quote from: Don on May 17, 2007, 02:07:30 PM
No.  PentaTone appears to be putting out a cycle of Shostakovich symphonies with different conductors for each release. 

So far we have:
Syms. 1 and 6/Jurowski
Syms. 5 and 9/You know who
Sym. 8/Berglund
Sym. 11/Pletnev

What binds these together is the Russian National Orchestra.

Who?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 17, 2007, 02:30:52 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 17, 2007, 02:15:25 PM
Who?

Quote from: Bunny on May 17, 2007, 12:35:26 PM
On balance, I get more satisfaction from Kondrashin's Shosty than almost any other cycle.  There are those rare and wonderful individual recordings from others to make up for any deficiencies, though.

Here's one that really rocks and the sound quality is topnotch SACD multichannel:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/513M8glGvTL._SS400_.jpg)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 17, 2007, 02:33:44 PM
Thanks George.

The Russian National Orchestra, isn't that the pseudonym for the pick-up band Pletnev put together? What a ghastly Tchaikovsky cycle they put together on DG.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 17, 2007, 02:43:07 PM
Fun Fact: Yakov Kreizberg is the younger brother of conductor Semyon Bychkov . . . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 17, 2007, 03:53:34 PM
Hey! A Steve sighting!

D Minor, have any of your orders come in yet?

I received an advisory e-mail that my replacement box of the Maksim Dmitriyevich set had shipped from ArkivMusic.  I waited a few days before shipping my return (that of the damaged box), because I did not want to do without in the entire interim.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Bunny on May 17, 2007, 03:57:30 PM
OMG! The seal of approval from the hurwitzer?  It's almost enough to scare me! But it is a really excellent album.  I guess he gets it right sometimes. ;)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 17, 2007, 03:58:13 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 17, 2007, 03:53:34 PM
Hey! A Steve sighting!

D Minor, have any of your orders come in yet?



Barshai came yesterday (still wrapped).

Received notice that Jansons has shipped from Florida.

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Bunny on May 17, 2007, 03:58:32 PM
Quote from: D Minor on May 17, 2007, 02:43:07 PM
Fun Fact: Yakov Kreizberg is the younger brother of conductor Semyon Bychkov . . . . . .

Bychkov has some interesting Shosty too.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 17, 2007, 03:59:17 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 17, 2007, 03:53:34 PM
I received an advisory e-mail that my replacement box of the Maksim Dmitriyevich set had shipped from ArkivMusic.  I waited a few days before shipping my return (that of the damaged box), because I did not want to do without in the entire interim.

What happened to your original box?  (again?)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 17, 2007, 03:59:41 PM
Quote from: Bunny on May 17, 2007, 03:58:32 PM
Bychkov has some interesting Shosty too.

AGREED !
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 17, 2007, 04:05:33 PM
Quote from: D Minor on May 17, 2007, 03:59:17 PM
What happened to your original box?  (again?)

The parcel came slightly crushed.  One and a half of the shallow sides of the box were fairly neatly creased.  None of the discs seemed to have suffered any actual damage (the box is large enough that the discs have some play both side-to-side and vertically . . . which is probably part of the problem).

I sent a neutral-toned e-mail to their Customer Service, and they promptly promised to make good.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 17, 2007, 04:10:21 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 17, 2007, 04:05:33 PM
The parcel came slightly crushed.  One and a half of the shallow sides of the box were fairly neatly creased.  None of the discs seemed to have suffered any actual damage (the box is large enough that the discs have some play both side-to-side and vertically . . . which is probably part of the problem).

I sent a neutral-toned e-mail to their Customer Service, and they promptly promised to make good.

Karl, I'm saddened that you will be deprived of your newly-acquired Maksim Dmitriyevich cycle for a few days . . . . . .  :'(
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 17, 2007, 04:12:38 PM
I am touched by your friendly concern, mon vieux!

I am braced for the privation . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 17, 2007, 04:16:07 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 17, 2007, 04:12:38 PM
I am touched by your friendly concern, mon vieux!

I am braced for the privation . . . .

Deprivation only heightens your desire . . . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 17, 2007, 05:53:25 PM
Quote from: D Minor on May 17, 2007, 02:43:07 PM
Fun Fact: Yakov Kreizberg is the younger brother of conductor Semyon Bychkov . . . . . .

How interesting!

Speaking of Bychkov, apparently he's embarking on a complete cycle for Avie. Can't confirm that but the signs seem to point to it. Should be interesting.

I've picked up the 7th from this Avie set but haven't ventured further since two of the other recordings - the 8th and 11th - are duplicated on his earlier Berlin Philharmonic releases...and I already have those.

In fact, these Berlin recordings (5, 8, 11) have always held a place in my heart and it saddened me he never went further. I credit my fondness for the 11th to Bychkov's very fine Berlin reading. I wonder how the recent Avie compares...

Anyway, as soon as this cycle(?) moves into territory not duplicated by Bychkov/Berlin I'll likely begin following it very closely. His new 4th is perched right atop my want list...




Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 17, 2007, 06:07:34 PM
Boy, All - w/ so many recommendations (and newer ones 'popping up') - the WAIT continues for me - still looking to purchase my first 'complete' set; just so many choices - maybe I need 5 or 6?  ;) ;D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Michel on May 18, 2007, 12:59:28 AM
Just don't get Jansons.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 18, 2007, 05:23:00 AM
Quote from: D Minor on May 17, 2007, 04:16:07 PM
Deprivation only heightens your desire . . . . . .

And, there are consolations . . . . (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9.msg21726.html#msg21726)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 18, 2007, 05:24:38 AM
What has disappointed you about the Jansons set, Michel?  I've only heard his Eighth, Tenth and Fifteenth, but of these the Tenth and Fifteenth are among my favorites!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Hector on May 18, 2007, 05:48:44 AM
Quote from: Michel on May 18, 2007, 12:59:28 AM
Just don't get Jansons.

Oh, that does it for me, the order goes in today! ;)

The trouble is, like everything else I suppose, every set has its strengths and weaknesses.

Whatever set one chooses in the end I, for one, would not want to be without Rattle's EMI 4th, Previn's RCA 5th and HMV 8th, Bernstein's DG 7th, Ancerl's DG 10th, Rostropovich's LSO 11th and Sanderling's 15th, an antidote to Kondrashin's, preferably with the BPO rather than the Berlin SO.

I find Jansons' more convincing than most in the "lesser" symphonies but no better and no worse than many in the "core" symphonies 5, 8 and 10.

Oh, so many choices, so little time.

I will, someday soon, get around to getting Kondrashin although Baba Yar is bowdlerised and he is a tad fast but his orchestra is better than one could hope to expect and the Meloydia recordings have been transformed, I am reliably informed.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 18, 2007, 06:28:58 AM
Interesting, Hector.  I agree wholeheartedly on the excellence of Ančerl's account of the Tenth;  but the Jansons Tenth I find surpassingly good, too.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 18, 2007, 09:36:41 AM
Quote from: Hector on May 18, 2007, 05:48:44 AM
Rostropovich's LSO 11th and Sanderling's 15th...

Yes and yes, although I think Sanderling's Cleveland 15th is even finer, and deeper and blacker.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BorisG on May 18, 2007, 10:06:04 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 18, 2007, 09:36:41 AM
Yes and yes, although I think Sanderling's Cleveland 15th is even finer, and deeper and blacker.

Sarge

A gentle reminder, Sarge. It is just what you think is finer. Nothing more, nothing less. $:)

Anyone like the Ormandy?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 18, 2007, 10:38:07 AM
Quote from: BorisG on May 18, 2007, 10:06:04 AM
A gentle reminder, Sarge. It is just what you think is finer. Nothing more, nothing less. $:)

Anyone like the Ormandy?

I have heard it twice and so far, I haven't been wowed.  :-\
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 18, 2007, 11:43:38 AM
Quote from: BorisG on May 18, 2007, 10:06:04 AM
A gentle reminder, Sarge. It is just what you think is finer. Nothing more, nothing less. $:)

No need to remind me. Any time I say that something is better or worse, you can append IMO after the statement. It goes without saying. Nevertheless, listen to the Cleveland version and see if you don't agree.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 18, 2007, 12:05:53 PM
Quote from: BorisG on May 18, 2007, 10:06:04 AM
A gentle reminder, Sarge. It is just what you think is finer. Nothing more, nothing less. $:)


Yeah, Sarge . . . . . . You'd better watch it! . . . . .  :D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Greta on May 18, 2007, 09:39:29 PM
The only Shostakovich symphony I really know well is his 5th, and to a lesser extent his 7th and 8th. Ormandy: I like his recording of the 5th, solid all-around. Of course, I'm imprinted on it, it was my first one.

I got the Bernstein/NYP 5th (late 50s) recently and holy h***, he takes the last movement fast. Too fast for my liking. The playing is wild though! But then the slow section in the middle is so delicate and lovely. And the end isn't that fast. Actually, the performance as a whole is great, even if brash, it's exciting.

Gosh, another symphony I really need to see the score for. Bernstein speeds up and speeds up continously through the first two minutes of this movement. By 2 min he practically has nowhere to go!

I'm still hoping to get a set soon. Where is a logical place to explore next in listening? I want to try the 10th after seeing a video of Gergiev conducting it, I can tell it's going to take some listenings to digest...
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: rubio on May 19, 2007, 07:58:39 AM
I just listened to Haitink's recording of the 8th Symphony borrowed from the library, and I must say I liked it a lot. The orchestral playing is just superb, and the "allegro non troppo" is nicely driven. I think it definately beats Barshai's recording just because of the sound and the playing of the Concertgebouw. I also think the performance hangs really well together. I need to revisit Mravinsky's 8th (BBC legends) to see which one I prefer. Well, for sure Haitink does not have the exciting/wild "allegro non troppo" like Mravinsky.

I have complete cycles by Barshai and Kondrashin + half-complete cycles by Mravinsky (Meldodiya) and Sanderling (Berlin Classics), so I don't think I need any more complete sets. Some individual discs can always be interesting though  :). Are there any more performances from the Haitink on the same level as his 8th? And does Jansons have any must-haves which I at least could sample from my library?

(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/21w7bdHf6AL._AA130_.jpg)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 19, 2007, 08:16:02 AM
Quote from: rubio on May 19, 2007, 07:58:39 AM
so I don't think I need any more complete sets.

:D

I'm destined to buy them all . . . . . . And even then . . . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: rubio on May 19, 2007, 01:54:03 PM
Quote from: D Minor on May 19, 2007, 08:16:02 AM
:D

I'm destined to buy them all . . . . . . And even then . . . . . .

It could be that I buy the Haitink as well. I think I saw they had a good price for his set in Poland (where I'm going in June  :)).
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: uffeviking on May 19, 2007, 05:51:10 PM
Quote from: Greta on May 18, 2007, 09:39:29 PM

I want to try the 10th after seeing a video of Gergiev conducting it,

Pray tell, where did you buy-rent-steal the DVD? I spent at least half an hour trying to find it at any place in the business of selling classical recordings and still have no clue!

Thank you very much!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 21, 2007, 06:50:06 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 11, 2007, 04:43:14 AM
Just to sign in on the Boxes On Arrival sub-thread  8) . . . .

The Happy Ending:  the replacement box has judt landed, in excellent condition (all it took was a 'brace' of folded corrugated cardboard, which did not add materially to the shipping weight.

Oh, one happy camper am I!  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 21, 2007, 07:47:32 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 21, 2007, 06:50:06 AM
The Happy Ending:  the replacement box has judt landed, in excellent condition (all it took was a 'brace' of folded corrugated cardboard, which did not add materially to the shipping weight.

Oh, one happy camper am I!  :)

Congrats, Karl!  :)

Personally, I don't find CD buying as something that brings happiness anymore. Unless I am already OK to begin with.  :-\
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 21, 2007, 09:06:17 AM
You may mistake me, George;  this pleasure is largely in the fact that their customer service did the square thing, and all has been made right.

Though the more enduring pleasure is in listening to the music, rather than the purchase, as such, too.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 21, 2007, 09:56:43 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 21, 2007, 09:06:17 AM
You may mistake me, George;  this pleasure is largely in the fact that their customer service did the square thing, and all has been made right.

Though the more enduring pleasure is in listening to the music, rather than the purchase, as such, too.

Gotcha on the first point.  :)

On the second, again, I only experience pleasure through music when I am already feeling at least OK.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 21, 2007, 11:59:32 AM
Quote from: rubio on May 19, 2007, 07:58:39 AM
I just listened to Haitink's recording of the 8th Symphony borrowed from the library, and I must say I liked it a lot. The orchestral playing is just superb, and the "allegro non troppo" is nicely driven. I think it definately beats Barshai's recording just because of the sound and the playing of the Concertgebouw. I also think the performance hangs really well together. I need to revisit Mravinsky's 8th (BBC legends) to see which one I prefer. Well, for sure Haitink does not have the exciting/wild "allegro non troppo" like Mravinsky.

I have complete cycles by Barshai and Kondrashin + half-complete cycles by Mravinsky (Meldodiya) and Sanderling (Berlin Classics), so I don't think I need any more complete sets. Some individual discs can always be interesting though  :). Are there any more performances from the Haitink on the same level as his 8th? And does Jansons have any must-haves which I at least could sample from my library?

(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/21w7bdHf6AL._AA130_.jpg)

I'm generally resoved not to listen to anymore Haitink in these symphonies, but the 8th, might end up being a notable exception. By chance, I caught the first movement of this symphony over at a friend's and I must say that while the style is markedly different then Barsai, this is the one sympnony of his, that might be listetnable for me. It seems more controlled then the others. Glad to see I'm not alone in my appreciation of this one recording.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: rubio on May 21, 2007, 12:33:06 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 21, 2007, 11:59:32 AM
I'm generally resoved not to listen to anymore Haitink in these symphonies, but the 8th, might end up being a notable exception. By chance, I caught the first movement of this symphony over at a friend's and I must say that while the style is markedly different then Barsai, this is the one sympnony of his, that might be listetnable for me. It seems more controlled then the others. Glad to see I'm not alone in my appreciation of this one recording.

Maybe, I should only by this single disc if I find it.  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 21, 2007, 12:39:14 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 21, 2007, 09:06:17 AM
and all has been made right.

ahhhhh ..... happy ending ......
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 21, 2007, 12:56:13 PM
Quote from: rubio on May 19, 2007, 07:58:39 AM
Are there any more performances from the Haitink on the same level as his 8th?

I think the 6th and 11th are just as good although the third movement of the 6th isn't as manic as some might like. Michael Oliver of Gramophone says, "there are few recorded performances of either symphony to match these, and none to surpass them in grandeur of sound."

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Danny on May 28, 2007, 04:11:39 PM
Call me crazy, but I feel that the Yablonsky version on Naxos of the Leningrad is better than the Haitinik version with the LSO.  Yablonsky gives an interpretation that strikes me as being more Russian, and, as a result, more chaotic and fiery in areas (the percussion in the first movement comes to mind).
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Don on May 28, 2007, 04:38:35 PM
Quote from: Danny on May 28, 2007, 04:11:39 PM
Call me crazy, but I feel that the Yablonsky version on Naxos of the Leningrad is better than the Haitinik version with the LSO.  Yablonsky gives an interpretation that strikes me as being more Russian, and, as a result, more chaotic and fiery in areas (the percussion in the first movement comes to mind).

DANNY IS CRAZY
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 28, 2007, 06:30:54 PM
Quote from: Danny on May 28, 2007, 04:11:39 PM
Call me crazy, but I feel that the Yablonsky version on Naxos of the Leningrad is better than the Haitinik version with the LSO.  Yablonsky gives an interpretation that strikes me as being more Russian, and, as a result, more chaotic and fiery in areas (the percussion in the first movement comes to mind).

You're crazy .........
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Michel on May 29, 2007, 12:21:55 AM
You may say he is crazy but lots of others go about saying interpretations are better if they sound "Russian", as though that is an objective yardstick, which it is not. So although his specific reference is a peculiar one, the logic behind it is ubiquitous across this board.

In other news, I got Virgin to send out another Kondrashin box set and this, like the last, is bent and in places torn because it is so flimsy... So I am just going to copy it now and send it back...I give up!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 29, 2007, 04:48:51 AM
I think the cries of "Danny's off his chump!" might just have been good-natured compliance with his opening clause . . . .

I should revisit the Haitink recording of the Leningrad . . . haven't listened to it in a while, and the versions I have been listening to lately are the Bernstein/CSO and Maksim Dmitriyevich.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 29, 2007, 04:49:54 AM
Quote from: Michel on May 29, 2007, 12:21:55 AM
In other news, I got Virgin to send out another Kondrashin box set and this, like the last, is bent and in places torn because it is so flimsy... So I am just going to copy it now and send it back...I give up!

Argh.

Somebody ought to be able to figure out how to pack these things for travel . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 29, 2007, 04:51:18 AM
It's not a cycle, and so is technically off-topic . . . but the Temirkanov/St Petersburg Phil account of the Fifth and Sixth is excellent!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Danny on May 29, 2007, 08:03:20 AM
It's good to be crazy!  :o

Seriously, I could lie and say otherwise because the consensus is against me, but why do that?  However, this in no way goes against the cycle (which I love).  Personally, I think Haitinik gives a magnificent rendering of the Fifth, Eighth and Tenth symphonies. So in the Seventh I might find a lesser known name to be better because it has less of the polish and gloss to it, but that's just an IMHO.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 29, 2007, 10:05:22 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 29, 2007, 04:49:54 AM
Argh.

Somebody ought to be able to figure out how to pack these things for travel . . . .

Russian DVD did, mine arrived intact. 
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 29, 2007, 10:07:13 AM
Quote from: Danny on May 29, 2007, 08:03:20 AM
It's good to be crazy!  :o

Seriously, I could lie and say otherwise because the consensus is against me, but why do that?  However, this in no way goes against the cycle (which I love).  Personally, I think Haitinik gives a magnificent rendering of the Fifth, Eighth and Tenth symphonies. So in the Seventh I might find a lesser known name to be better because it has less of the polish and gloss to it, but that's just an IMHO.

I agree. Polish and gloss is not what I look for in my Shostakovich.  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 29, 2007, 11:09:47 AM
Okay, the Respectful Opposition will chime in :-)

If by "polish" we mean, that the events as notated in the score are synchronized in performance in a way which faithfully reflects the score, I think that polish can only be a good thing, it is not anything to which any musical objection could be made.

But maybe something else is meant by "polish"?  The fact is, it is not clear to me what is meant by polish . . . so I really cannot say whether I agree or not.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: from the new world on May 29, 2007, 11:21:07 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 29, 2007, 04:49:54 AM
i] Somebody [/i] ought to be able to figure out how to pack these things for travel . . . .

Talking of packaging issues, I have just received the Kitaenko Shostakovich cycle from Germany, and it came wrapped in a plastic bag by the Deutsche Post after the cardboard box was damaged. The good news is that the SACD hybrids seem perfectly fine, and the 14th is playing fine (the first to be played).

There doesn't seem to have been much discussion about this cycle, and I was wondering if anyone has heard these performances. Still, at under £30 for 12 hybrids with great sound, there are definately a bargain.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Danny on May 29, 2007, 12:13:30 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 29, 2007, 11:09:47 AM
Okay, the Respectful Opposition will chime in :-)

If by "polish" we mean, that the events as notated in the score are synchronized in performance in a way which faithfully reflects the score, I think that polish can only be a good thing, it is not anything to which any musical objection could be made.

But maybe something else is meant by "polish"?  The fact is, it is not clear to me what is meant by polish . . . so I really cannot say whether I agree or not.

Always a gentelman, Dr. Karl! :)

Now, I thought it made sense when first writing it, but now........................... :-\

Ok, my thoughts were that by using the word "polish" I meant that the interpretation had an overly refined or controlled quality.  It seems that, in parts, the music didn't erupt like it should have (especially in the culmination to the long march in the first movement). I wasn't impressed by the percussion, and the timpani just wasn't loud enough for my taste.  This isn't to say that I don't like the version by Haitinik (which I do), I just thought that after listening to his version a few times that I still prefered the Yablonsky one.

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Michel on May 29, 2007, 12:17:32 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 29, 2007, 04:49:54 AM
Argh.

Somebody ought to be able to figure out how to pack these things for travel . . . .

Its not that, its the box set, its crap. Bloody Russians.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 29, 2007, 12:17:47 PM
Interesting, Danny, and thank you for your clarification!

I need to revisit the Haitink (and, I don't know the Yablonsky).
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Danny on May 29, 2007, 12:19:55 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 29, 2007, 12:17:47 PM
Interesting, Danny, and thank you for your clarification!

I need to revisit the Haitink (and, I don't know the Yablonsky).

If you want it, I could burn you a copy and send it you. :)

Just let me know.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on May 29, 2007, 12:21:40 PM
Quote from: from the new world on May 29, 2007, 11:21:07 AM
Talking of packaging issues, I have just received the Kitaenko Shostakovich cycle from Germany, and it came wrapped in a plastic bag by the Deutsche Post after the cardboard box was damaged. The good news is that the SACD hybrids seem perfectly fine, and the 14th is playing fine (the first to be played).

There doesn't seem to have been much discussion about this cycle, and I was wondering if anyone has heard these performances. Still, at under £30 for 12 hybrids with great sound, there are definately a bargain.

I want that set .......... want it bad .......... want it soon .........
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 29, 2007, 04:02:34 PM
Quote from: Danny on May 29, 2007, 12:13:30 PM
Ok, my thoughts were that by using the word "polish" I meant that the interpretation had an overly refined or controlled quality.  It seems that, in parts, the music didn't erupt like it should have (especially in the culmination to the long march in the first movement). I wasn't impressed by the percussion, and the timpani just wasn't loud enough for my taste.  This isn't to say that I don't like the version by Haitinik (which I do), I just thought that after listening to his version a few times that I still prefered the Yablonsky one.

I thought that's what you were getting at. I agree that Haitink falls into this category, as does Abbado. These days, since I don't like their style, I avoid these conductors.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 29, 2007, 06:15:03 PM
I think I've mentioned this elsewhere, but there is a kind of cool stasis to the wind chorale in the third movement Adagio of the Leningrad in the Haitink/London Phil recording, which I find exquisitely well advised (a stunning echo of, say, the chorales in Stravinsky's L'histoire du soldat).  It is one of many accomplishments in this recording, which drive my high regard for it.  Nor is it to say that the third movement has to be done that way in order for me to approve of a performance (the Bernstein/CSO is notably different in that passage, for instance).

Anyway, lads, this is just an example of why I find it of greater interest, more musically useful, what you will, to compare specific features, rather than to use a general term like "polished" as denoting inferiority.  (And BTW, I have no quarrel with the percussion here, either;  naturally, YMMV.)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 29, 2007, 06:36:25 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 29, 2007, 06:15:03 PM
Anyway, lads, this is just an example of why I find it of greater interest, more musically useful, what you will, to compare specific features, rather than to use a general term like "polished" as denoting inferiority.  (And BTW, I have no quarrel with the percussion here, either;  naturally, YMMV.)

Yes, but Karl, even specific features do not point to inferiority, they just point to what you (or I) like or do not like. I don't recall stating (or Danny stating) that polished meant inferior. If I implied such a thing, I apologize. I merely meant to say that polished and Shostakovich don't go well for me. I would certainly not be so bold as to assume that my negative impressions meant that something was inferior in general, just inferior to me, for me. As Harry reminds us all (daily) it's all subjective. To think that my subjective experience translated into an objective fact (such as something being inferior) would be naive indeed.  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on May 29, 2007, 06:37:58 PM
Quote from: Danny on May 28, 2007, 04:11:39 PM
Call me crazy, but I feel that the Yablonsky version on Naxos of the Leningrad is better than the Haitinik version with the LSO.  Yablonsky gives an interpretation that strikes me as being more Russian, and, as a result, more chaotic and fiery in areas (the percussion in the first movement comes to mind).

You don't sound crazy at all. You just sound like you know what you like. Nothing crazy about that.  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 29, 2007, 06:43:41 PM
Quote from: George on May 29, 2007, 06:36:25 PM
Yes, but Karl, even specific features do not point to inferiority, they just point to what you (or I) like or do not like. I don't recall stating (or Danny stating) that polished meant inferior. If I implied such a thing, I apologize. I merely meant to say that polished and Shostakovich don't go well for me. I would certainly not be so bold as to assume that my negative impressions meant that something was inferior in general, just inferior to me, for me. As Harry reminds us all (daily) it's all subjective. To think that my subjective experience translated into an objective fact (such as something being inferior) would be naive indeed.  :)

Understood, George (though, our esteemed Harry notwithstanding, I don't think it can be all subjective, but that's another tale).  I suppose it boils down to when someone says "polished," (whether or not there's a value-comparison tagged to that), I seldom know what is really meant, especially when applied to a recording generally, e.g.  And so I make free to ask, "What was that part in the middle again . . . ?" :-)

And of course, Danny still does like the Haitink recording  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 29, 2007, 06:49:52 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 29, 2007, 06:15:03 PM
I think I've mentioned this elsewhere, but there is a kind of cool stasis to the wind chorale in the third movement Adagio of the Leningrad in the Haitink/London Phil recording, which I find exquisitely well advised (a stunning echo of, say, the chorales in Stravinsky's L'histoire du soldat).  It is one of many accomplishments in this recording, which drive my high regard for it.  Nor is it to say that the third movement has to be done that way in order for me to approve of a performance (the Bernstein/CSO is notably different in that passage, for instance).

Anyway, lads, this is just an example of why I find it of greater interest, more musically useful, what you will, to compare specific features, rather than to use a general term like "polished" as denoting inferiority.  (And BTW, I have no quarrel with the percussion here, either;  naturally, YMMV.)

You've piqued my interest, Karl. I'll have to take another listen of the Haitink Adagio. I've never really liked the Bernstein interpretation of this symphony, btw
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 30, 2007, 04:08:39 AM
Quote from: Steve on May 29, 2007, 06:49:52 PM
You've piqued my interest, Karl. I'll have to take another listen of the Haitink Adagio. I've never really liked the Bernstein interpretation of this symphony, btw

I think it was one of the first I heard, though only in part on that occasion (and on radio).  It left me pretty cold to the symphony.  Now that the piece itself is firmly in my sonic graces, perhaps there is some 'distance' wherefrom I can appreciate the Bernstein recording.  At any rate, a large part of it is just enjoying the sound of the brass  8)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 30, 2007, 05:28:43 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 30, 2007, 04:08:39 AM
I think it was one of the first I heard, though only in part on that occasion (and on radio).  It left me pretty cold to the symphony.  Now that the piece itself is firmly in my sonic graces, perhaps there is some 'distance' wherefrom I can appreciate the Bernstein recording.  At any rate, a large part of it is just enjoying the sound of the brass  8)

Just as long as it's not too much, Karl  ;)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 30, 2007, 05:33:47 AM
You mean, so long as they don't drown out the percussion, Steve?  8)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on May 30, 2007, 05:41:59 AM
Indeed.  ;D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on June 08, 2007, 06:00:47 AM
While exogenous variables (many of them much the right sort of exogenous variable) have set back my plans to prepare a comprehensive survey of the Maksim Dmitriyevich set, I consider this only a delay.

Continued listening is affirming initially favorable impressions, and I will write at greater length hereafter.

Meanwhile I note with interest that Sarge is greatly enjoying his Slava set.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Danny on June 08, 2007, 11:09:26 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 30, 2007, 05:33:47 AM
You mean, so long as they don't drown out the percussion, Steve?  8)

$:)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on June 08, 2007, 11:19:33 AM
 ;)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on June 08, 2007, 11:59:39 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 08, 2007, 06:00:47 AM
While exogenous variables (many of them much the right sort of exogenous variable) have set back my plans to prepare a comprehensive survey of the Maksim Dmitriyevich set, I consider this only a delay.

Continued listening is affirming initially favorable impressions, and I will write at greater length hereafter.

Meanwhile I note with interest that Sarge is greatly enjoying his Slava set.

Karl,

Yesterday, I had the chance to listen to an old Berstein recording of the 5th, and enjoyed it immensely. I never remember being particularily drawn to Berstein's Shostakovich, but experience has given me cause to look into these recordings again. What are your opinions of his interpretations?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 08, 2007, 01:55:32 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 08, 2007, 06:00:47 AM
Meanwhile I note with interest that Sarge is greatly enjoying his Slava set.

I am, and chances are good this may become my favorite Shostakovich cycle. But it's still early in the game. I've only heard the first three discs so far, symphonies 1-4, and 9 (I'm already familar with his 13th and 5th...Slava's 5th being my long time favorite along with Bernstein '79). Unlike Maksim, Slava comes from the subjective school of conducting. He is an interventionist and decidedly mannered (I can imagine many thinking his point making exaggerated). Tempos tend to be extreme in both directions, slow and fast. It's been a wild ride so far and I'm enjoying it. Moving on to the Sixth tomorrow. Since I don't have a CD version of this symphony I fully love, I'm hoping Rostropovich will do it for me.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on June 08, 2007, 02:00:33 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 08, 2007, 01:55:32 PM
I am, and chances are good this may become my favorite Shostakovich cycle. But it's still early in the game. I've only heard the first three discs so far, symphonies 1-4 (I'm already familar with his 13th and 5th...Slava's 5th being my long time favorite along with Bernstein '79). Unlike Maksim, Slava comes from the subjective school of conducting. He is an interventionist and decidedly mannered (I can imagine many thinking his point making exaggerated). Tempos tend to be extreme in both directions, slow and fast. It's been a wild ride so far and I'm enjoying it. Moving on to the Sixth tomorrow. Since I don't have a CD version of this symphony I fully love, I'm hoping Rostropovich will do it for me.

Sarge

You got his first complete set, right Sarge?

Teldec on 12 CDs?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 08, 2007, 02:24:54 PM
Quote from: George on June 08, 2007, 02:00:33 PM
You got his first complete set, right Sarge?

Teldec on 12 CDs?

Yes, this one:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/berlin/SRCom.jpg)

When I saw the JPC price, 48 Euro, I didn't even hesitate.

Of the live LSO recordings, I only have the 11th (stunning, Tony's right). It will be interesting to compare it with the earlier NSO version.

Sarge

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on June 08, 2007, 04:54:38 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 08, 2007, 02:24:54 PM
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/berlin/SRCom.jpg)

(((Now there is an in-your-face cover ......... )))  >:D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on June 08, 2007, 07:31:58 PM
Twelve discs?  Any music apart from the 15 symphonies, Sarge?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on June 08, 2007, 07:41:04 PM
I owe to Slava to revisit his work here.  I soured to him on the basis of one recording, and maybe my ears just weren't into it then.

As to Bernstein, Steve:  You know, I don't think I've heard him with the Fifth.  The First and Seventh with the CSO are powerful accounts, in some details arguably 'textually questionable', but he makes it all work so well, I won't press charges  8)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on June 08, 2007, 07:43:59 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 08, 2007, 07:41:04 PM
I owe to Slava to revisit his work here.  I soured to him on the basis of one recording, and maybe my ears just weren't into it then.

His LSO 5th is very nice. Also midprice.

Say that twice while chewing rice.

:D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 09, 2007, 05:45:43 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 08, 2007, 07:31:58 PM
Twelve discs?  Any music apart from the 15 symphonies, Sarge?

Unfortunately, no. Just the symphonies. Some of the discs are very short; three come in around the 45 minute mark. They could have put the cycle on fewer discs but then they would have been forced to spread some works over two. Still, the cost per disc is only 4 Euro. I don't feel cheated.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 10, 2007, 05:05:44 AM
So if I am looking for a second cycle should I get the M. Shostakovich or the Jansons. Please, no Haitink please.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on June 10, 2007, 05:52:57 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 10, 2007, 05:05:44 AM
So if I am looking for a second cycle should I get the M. Shostakovich or the Jansons. Please, no Haitink please.

Who's your first?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on June 10, 2007, 06:02:43 AM
Quote from: Steve on May 29, 2007, 06:49:52 PM
You've piqued my interest, Karl. I'll have to take another listen of the Haitink Adagio. I've never really liked the Bernstein interpretation of this symphony, btw

The Seventh, yes, Steve? What about it has disagreed with you, do you recall?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 10, 2007, 06:03:26 AM
Quote from: George on June 10, 2007, 05:52:57 AM
Who's your first?
Barshai
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on June 10, 2007, 06:04:26 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 09, 2007, 05:45:43 AM
Unfortunately, no. Just the symphonies. Some of the discs are very short; three come in around the 45 minute mark. They could have put the cycle on fewer discs but then they would have been forced to spread some works over two.

Curious.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on June 10, 2007, 06:09:08 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 10, 2007, 06:03:26 AM
Barshai

I'll be interested in how you might compare either Maksim Dmitriyevich or Jansons to the Barshai.

FWIW, I have not heard either the Jansons or Haitink set in its entirety;  from what I have heard (i.e., color this plain speculative) I imagine I should find a complete Jansons set preferable to Haitink, overall.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on June 10, 2007, 06:11:07 AM
FWIW, Steve, much though I enjoy it, if we take the most abstract of questions "If you could only have one recording of the 'Leningrad' . . ." I would not choose the Bernstein/CSO over others.

The strong argument of the CSO brass notwithstanding :-)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on June 10, 2007, 06:13:36 AM
Quote from: Michel on May 29, 2007, 12:17:32 PM
Its not that, its the box set, its crap. Bloody Russians.

I should think the distributor should be more local to you than, say, Vladivistok  8)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 10, 2007, 06:20:25 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 10, 2007, 06:11:07 AM
FWIW, Steve, much though I enjoy it, if we take the most abstract of questions "If you could only have one recording of the 'Leningrad' . . ." I would not choose the Bernstein/CSO over others.

The strong argument of the CSO brass notwithstanding :-)

And which one would you choose above the others Karl?
I think the Bernstein/CSO is one of the most devastingly beautiful and charged readings of any piece of music I know.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 10, 2007, 06:21:14 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 10, 2007, 06:09:08 AM
I'll be interested in how you might compare either Maksim Dmitriyevich or Jansons to the Barshai.

FWIW, I have not heard either the Jansons or Haitink set in its entirety;  from what I have heard (i.e., color this plain speculative) I imagine I should find a complete Jansons set preferable to Haitink, overall.

Do you know who performs the big symphonies like 5, 7, 8, and 10 in the Jansons cycle?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 04:26:31 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 10, 2007, 06:21:14 AM
Do you know who performs the big symphonies like 5, 7, 8, and 10 in the Jansons cycle?

10 is Phila, and is excellent.  8 is Pbgh, and very good;  in the Eighth I might give Haitink a slightly higher mark than Jansons in this recording, but it's only by a nose.  (I know, it's not really a horse-race, but . . . .)

I haven't heard Jansons in the Fifth or Seventh yet . . . don't know which bands play them.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 04:32:56 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 10, 2007, 06:20:25 AM
And which one would you choose above the others Karl?
I think the Bernstein/CSO is one of the most devastingly beautiful and charged readings of any piece of music I know.

The question is impossible, as is, PW.  I have a great fondness and loyalty to the Ančerl.  The Bernstein/CSO is excellent, most decidedly a keeper.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 04:37:46 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 08, 2007, 01:55:32 PM
Moving on to the Sixth tomorrow. Since I don't have a CD version of this symphony I fully love, I'm hoping Rostropovich will do it for me.

Also curious, Sarge!  For long, the Haitink was the only acccount I'd heard, and I liked it very well.  Better still, I'm finding both the Temirkanov/St Petersburg Phil and Maksim Dmitriyevich's.  I've certainly reached the stage where I wonder why I did not love this symphony as well as the Fifth, any earlier (of course, the Fifth has great sentimental attachment for me, anyway).
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 04:43:55 AM
Quote from: D Minor on May 17, 2007, 03:58:13 PM
Barshai came yesterday (still wrapped).

And . . . ?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 04:45:32 AM
Quote from: Harry on May 11, 2007, 04:48:20 AM
Its good to hear, you are delighted with it.
If you think its good enough, its good for me, and I will order it. :)

Status report, Harry?  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 04:47:23 AM
Quote from: Greta on May 05, 2007, 09:15:30 PM
I'm watching this thread as I don't have a Shosty set, in fact despite loving this composer, I'm not familiar with all his symphonies yet.  :o

We're here for you, Greta  :)

With which symphonies are you not yet acquainted? Just curious . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 04:48:21 AM
(Of course, that post was last month; maybe by now, Greta is at least acquainted with them all  0:))
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Harry on June 11, 2007, 04:49:23 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 04:45:32 AM
Status report, Harry?  :)

Its in a large pile my friend, lying under Tippett, so you understand I have not played it yet. :)
First two Mahler Cycles to go through.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on June 11, 2007, 04:50:21 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 10, 2007, 06:02:43 AM
The Seventh, yes, Steve? What about it has disagreed with you, do you recall?

When I was first assorted through the incredible number of quality Shostakovich recordings, I came across Berstein's Leningrad one day, and found his interpretation to be inconsistent with how I'd conceived of he piece. I've since then read many reviews on this piece, and after hearing a remarkable 5th, I'm going to give this another chance.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 04:52:44 AM
Quote from: Harry on June 11, 2007, 04:49:23 AM
Its in a large pile my friend, lying under Tippett, so you understand I have not played it yet. :)

At the risk of veering off-topic, what Tippett have you got in the queue, mijn vriend?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 04:55:40 AM
Quote from: Steve on June 11, 2007, 04:50:21 AM
When I was first assorted through the incredible number of quality Shostakovich recordings, I came across Berstein's Leningrad one day, and found his interpretation to be inconsistent with how I'd conceived of the piece. I've since then read many reviews on this piece, and after hearing a remarkable 5th, I'm going to give this another chance.

Understood, especially what I've italicized above.  For myself, there was something of a watershed when I was at last convinced by the entire piece;  and then, at some subsequent point, a further watershed where I accepted that the piece could sustain to some extent a range of interpretation.  Which, one might say, is part of the measure of a great piece.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Harry on June 11, 2007, 05:04:06 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 04:52:44 AM
At the risk of veering off-topic, what Tippett have you got in the queue, mijn vriend?

This one.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on June 11, 2007, 05:09:14 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 04:55:40 AM
Understood, especially what I've italicized above.  For myself, there was something of a watershed when I was at last convinced by the entire piece;  and then, at some subsequent point, a further watershed where I accepted that the piece could sustain to some extent a range of interpretation.  Which, one might say, is part of the measure of a great piece.

Remember his European tour? His rebellious revision of the finale (5th)?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 05:11:41 AM
Well, it was before my time :-)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on June 11, 2007, 05:13:40 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 05:11:41 AM
Well, it was before my time :-)

Well done, Sir. But, there are encyclopedias for this very reason.  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 06:03:15 AM
Quote from: Bogey on April 25, 2007, 06:38:45 PM
I have not finished Haitink's cycle (only have four of them), but his will be my direction over the next few years.

Which four of the Haitink series have you got, Bill?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 06:06:17 AM
Quote from: Steve on June 11, 2007, 05:13:40 AM
Well done, Sir. But, there are encyclopedias for this very reason.  :)

I don't have my sources to hand this morning . . . so I'm vaguely remembering a characteristically ambiguous compliment from Shostakovich.

And with Lenny, there is sometimes the question:  Are we still within range of the actual piece?  Or have we wilfully gone Elsewhere?  8)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on June 11, 2007, 06:06:55 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 06:06:17 AM
I don't have my sources to hand this morning . . . so I'm vaguely remembering a characteristically ambiguous compliment from Shostakovich.

And with Lenny, there is sometimes the question:  Are we still within range of the actual piece?  Or have we wilfully gone Elsewhere?  8)

Good point.  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 06:23:53 AM
The finale of the Fifth I have found a curious question.  Recalls the Bigendian/Smallendian debate in some ways :-)

And the drivers are so ephemeral.  There's the characteristically colorful story in Testimony (and how do we know that's actually Shostakovich talking?)  The typically unfathomable Shostakovich deadpan of the 'broken metronome' remark.  The postcard returned to Celibidache with the laconic "Da" (which, again, knowing both the state of operation of the Soviet postal system, and how some missives wound up on desks of the KGB and never actually reached recipients . . . I just cannot think it much of a document to go on).

Upon this insufficient foundation, in part, we have [ fast ending = triumph / slow ending = dissident sarcasm ] as something of a "line in the sand," in some quarters.

I don't have the firm answer, obviously.  But two of my asides are:

1.) Shostakovich was in probably the tightest of a number of tight spots he experienced throughout his career.  Too much depended on the piece making the right impression in the right quarters;  he was not in the position here, to take the musical risk of (say) the Ninth later on during the war.  So, I'm not sure this was the occasion for him to play such a daring card.  Obviously, I cannot say one way or the other, absolutely.

2.) I consider how broad the ending of the 'Leningrad'  Symphony is, and how unambiguously triumphant.  I don't think it at all a 'slam dunk' that breadth of tempo in the finale of the Fifth, maps onto scornful dissidence.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 06:30:49 AM
Quote from: Harry on April 26, 2007, 03:01:50 AM
Barshai is for me the set!
And plenty of sets to complement it. :)

This post has a certain Yes! No! quality to it, Harry  ;)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Steve on June 11, 2007, 06:42:38 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 06:23:53 AM
The finale of the Fifth I have found a curious question.  Recalls the Bigendian/Smallendian debate in some ways :-)

And the drivers are so ephemeral.  There's the characteristically colorful story in Testimony (and how do we know that's actually Shostakovich talking?)  The typically unfathomable Shostakovich deadpan of the 'broken metronome' remark.  The postcard returned to Celibidache with the laconic "Da" (which, again, knowing both the state of operation of the Soviet postal system, and how some missives wound up on desks of the KGB and never actually reached recipients . . . I just cannot think it much of a document to go on).

Upon this insufficient foundation, in part, we have [ fast ending = triumph / slow ending = dissident sarcasm ] as something of a "line in the sand," in some quarters.

I don't have the firm answer, obviously.  But two of my asides are:

1.) Shostakovich was in probably the tightest of a number of tight spots he experienced throughout his career.  Too much depended on the piece making the right impression in the right quarters;  he was not in the position here, to take the musical risk of (say) the Ninth later on during the war.  So, I'm not sure this was the occasion for him to play such a daring card.  Obviously, I cannot say one way or the other, absolutely.

2.) I consider how broad the ending of the 'Leningrad'  Symphony is, and how unambiguously triumphant.  I don't think it at all a 'slam dunk' that breadth of tempo in the finale of the Fifth, maps onto scornful dissidence.

Upon this insufficient foundation, in part, we have [ fast ending = triumph / slow ending = dissident sarcasm ] as something of a "line in the sand," in some quarters.

Having recently listened to the Bernstein interpretation of this Symphony again, I couldnt help but posit some skepticism about those very remarks. A brief summary of that famous debate were included on the back of the originial lp. The comment 'sarcasm wasn't expected to sit well with the Russians", does oversimplify Bernstein's take.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2007, 11:28:27 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 04:37:46 AM
Also curious, Sarge!  For long, the Haitink was the only acccount I'd heard, and I liked it very well.  Better still, I'm finding both the Temirkanov/St Petersburg Phil and Maksim Dmitriyevich's.  I've certainly reached the stage where I wonder why I did not love this symphony as well as the Fifth, any earlier (of course, the Fifth has great sentimental attachment for me, anyway).

Well, Slava's Sixth puzzled me. Looking at the timing of the first movement, I thought, ah ha! this will be the one. I want a protracted and terribly desolate sounding first movement. An utter wasteland. But somehow it didn't work. I had a hard time getting a satisfactory balance between the soft and loud parts. When I had it as soft as I wanted, the orchestral body seemed to recede alarmingly. That may have colored my perception of the interpretation. I'll have to listen to it again on my main system. For the moment, Rozhdestvensky's is the best Sixth I own.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Danny on June 11, 2007, 11:38:37 AM
I hate versions of the Fifth that rush the ending to the finale, but that supposedly makes me a Stalinist or whatever according to Volkov and the late, great Rostropovich.   :'(
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 11:51:11 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2007, 11:28:27 AM
Well, Slava's Sixth puzzled me. Looking at the timing of the first movement, I thought, ah ha! this will be the one. I want a protracted and terribly desolate sounding first movement. An utter wasteland. But somehow it didn't work. I had a hard time getting a satisfactory balance between the soft and loud parts. When I had it as soft as I wanted, the orchestral body seemed to recede alarmingly. That may have colored my perception of the interpretation. I'll have to listen to it again on my main system. For the moment, Rozhdestvensky's is the best Sixth I own.

Interesting, Sarge.

As to Temirkanov/St Petersburg Phil and Maksim Dmitriyevich/Prague Symphony, I've had a great time comparing the two of them today.  I like them both, like them both a lot, yet the two take distinct approaches.  Maksim Dmitriyevich takes the Largo markedly broader (his timing in this movement is more than two and a half minutes longer than Temirkanov's, 18:56 vs. 16:23).

Temirkanov is more 'driven' with the Allegro.  On the one hand, then, I think Maksim Dmitriyevich must have stronger support from the text (the marking is Allegro, and not Presto), and the tutti at about a minute and a half in, with the trumpets, has a winning grace and charm.  On the other, Temirkanov makes the nervier tempo work, too.

There are less differences in the character of the final Presto itself;  the difference is in the overall arc of the symphony.  In Temirkanov's reading, there is more of a 'night & day' split between the opening Largo, and the two fast movements.  Where Maksim Dmitriyevich makes it more a whole-cloth progression from the Largo to gradually swifter character.

I'll say again, I like these both a lot.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2007, 12:00:41 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 10, 2007, 06:21:14 AM
Do you know who performs the big symphonies like 5, 7, 8, and 10 in the Jansons cycle?

Hey, PW. I own the Jansons set. The orchestras are:

1 - Berlin Phil
2 - SOBR
3 - SOBR
4 - SOBR
5 - Vienna Phil
6 - Oslo Phil
7 - St Petersburg Phil
8 - Pittsburgh
9 - Oslo Phil
10 - Philadelphia
11 - Philadelphia
12 - SOBR
13 - SOBR
14 - SOBR
15 - LPO

My favorites from this cycle: 3, 4, 5 (there's a really interesting gear change in the Finale that will either repulse you or excite you), 10, 13 and 14 but most of the others are fine too. The only weak performances, in my opinion, are the 6th (its first movement is simply too fast, too light. It fails to evoke a sense of loss and desolation) and the 9th. I can't judge the 7th. It remains my least favorite symphony (I actually like 2, 3 and 12 more than 7) and Jansons too failed to convince me.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 11, 2007, 12:08:39 PM
Thanks Sarge !
Wow, so the 7th is with the former Leningrad Philharmonic then !

The reason I don't go for complete cycles with Shostakovich is that I only like about half the symphonies. I like 4-10 and 15, am lukewarm towards 1, 11. Don't really care for 12, really really do not like 2 and 3. 13 and 14 are vocal works and I am probably not a good judge on these works so I will not attempt to.

So the upshot is I only like about half the symphonies and really don't want to shell out $50+ for them...
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 12:10:29 PM
If that's the case, no set would be quite your thing, PW.

Then, too, I cannot imagine being lukewarm to the First!  8)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 11, 2007, 12:12:38 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 12:10:29 PM
If that's the case, no set would be quite your thing, PW.

Then, too, I cannot imagine being lukewarm to the First!  8)

It's a nice pleasant work but I like works that pack a punch like 7, 8 and 10 ;)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2007, 12:28:46 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 06:23:53 AM
Upon this insufficient foundation, in part, we have [ fast ending = triumph / slow ending = dissident sarcasm ] as something of a "line in the sand," in some quarters.

I don't have the firm answer, obviously.  But two of my asides are:

1.) Shostakovich was in probably the tightest of a number of tight spots he experienced throughout his career.  Too much depended on the piece making the right impression in the right quarters;  he was not in the position here, to take the musical risk of (say) the Ninth later on during the war.  So, I'm not sure this was the occasion for him to play such a daring card.  Obviously, I cannot say one way or the other, absolutely.

2.) I consider how broad the ending of the 'Leningrad'  Symphony is, and how unambiguously triumphant.  I don't think it at all a 'slam dunk' that breadth of tempo in the finale of the Fifth, maps onto scornful dissidence.

Excellent points. It takes more than a mere tempo to signify what the conductor wants us to think (if said conductor is trying to make a political statement...I'm sure most aren't). Rostropovich does it with both a slow tempo and really heavy, dissonant accents that sound like they're trying to stop the music . Hectoring is how one critic described Slava's final pages.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Bogey on June 11, 2007, 03:08:02 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 06:03:15 AM
Which four of the Haitink series have you got, Bill?

5, 6, 8, and 11

Only the 5th here seems to fall short for me Karl even though it is the only account of it that I have ever heard....basing this on others high praise for the piece.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 03:32:21 PM
Haven't heard Haitink in either the Fifth or Eleventh, Bill;  his accounts of the Sixth and Eighth are indeed very fine.

Revisiting Haitink's Sixth this evening, his is yet a different fingerprint to either Temirkanov or Maksim DmitriyevichHaitink's trademark 'tidiness' -- obligatory disclaimer: not to call the other two sloppy, at all, mind you -- works to excellent effect here, as it has in the best of the rest of his cycle.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 11, 2007, 04:08:54 PM
My wife really digs the Leningrad. But she says the Roz. recordings on Russian Revelations sucks sound-wise.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2007, 04:21:44 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 11, 2007, 04:08:54 PM
My wife really digs the Leningrad. But she says the Roz. recordings on Russian Revelations sucks sound-wise.

They don't have the prettiest sound: they are very upfront and in your face; climactic moments can be glaring and harsh. But you get used to it. Worth it for the performances.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BorisG on June 11, 2007, 05:23:15 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 11, 2007, 04:08:54 PM
My wife really digs the Leningrad. But she says the Roz. recordings on Russian Revelations sucks sound-wise.

Yes, those Russian Revoltings should be buried.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2007, 10:12:46 AM
For variety, you know, I'm checking out more of the Jansons cycle and the Gergiev 'War Symphonies' set.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: toledobass on June 12, 2007, 10:20:47 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 12, 2007, 10:12:46 AM
For variety, you know, I'm checking out more of the Jansons cycle and the Gergiev 'War Symphonies' set.

I've been eyeing that Gergiev for a long while.  Let me know what you think,  Karl.


Peace,

Allan
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2007, 10:59:16 AM
Will report, Allan!

Andy asked about my favorite Fourth.  A number of them are very good.  At the risk of inviting comparisons to a broken record (a simile whose usefulness may not endure the Digital Age), for a number of nerdy, textual reasons — but also because it sounds great — the one I like best is the Prague Symphony directed by the composer's son.  But the Previn/CSO recording gets a special mention, as well.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on June 13, 2007, 08:19:44 AM
The Gergiev/Mariinka (Kirov) account of the Fifth is at times idiosyncratic.  And so (a) generally, I am still weighing it, and (b) right away I shouldn't call it my favorite.  But a worthwhile listen, certainly.

The Gergiev/Mariinka (Kirov) account of the Fourth, similarly, has its share of idiosyncracies, yet I don't think this effaces the overall profile of the work, in the way it seems to have with the Fifth.  The Fourth starts out a little straightlaced (a little cautious?) . . . on one hand, it's striking me a bit odd; on the other, I might take that as a valid alternative.  Still mulling over that.  Gergiev seems to want to take tempi slower when the bassoons are about . . . he brings in the bassoon/contrabassoon recap of the first movement rather under-tempo;  and the bassoon solo marcia funebre with timpani and double-bass pizz accompaniment which opens the third movement, is at a relaxed pace which sounds more like a ramble than a march.  The brass sound very good in The Huge C Major section of the third movement.

Now, when Gergiev brought the Mariinka to Worcester's Mechanics Hall, their performance of the Seventh was life-changing;  it was also entirely orthodox (in all the right sense).  So I admit I am finding myself a bit surprised with this Fourth and Fifth as I begin surveying Gergiev's 'War Symphonies' set (of course, "war symphonies" is a misnomer for the Fourth through Sixth, but I suppose the idea is to bring the Terror of the 30s under the umbrella of War, which is of itself defensible).

With these accounts of the Fourth and Fifth, Gergiev seems keen to find a fingerprint of his own . . . and I'll have to digest what I hear, before much taking that notion up.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: SimonGodders on June 15, 2007, 08:01:01 AM
Not a cycle (about half), but bought this recently:

(http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B0000035QO.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)

And was so impressed, I bought the rest later that evening. They've all arrived today 8):

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/050/54601.jpg) (http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/050/54603.jpg)
(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/190/193788.jpg)(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/190/198966.jpg)

Just spinning Symphony 10 now, this is great stuff...

Sanderling really knows how to unravel Shostakovich and demonstrate just what's going on, something I've struggled a fair bit with the symphonic side of this composer. Do not hesitate to purchase!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on June 15, 2007, 08:09:49 AM
Simon, I've seen those in a local shop in a box.




- George, who really needs to get a job and stop all this ruinous coveting.  :-[
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: SimonGodders on June 15, 2007, 08:24:42 AM
Well that's what I did. I'ld bought the disc with 1+6 and then decided I must hear everything else....as you do :-\ and bought the box, found it to be cheapest at German Amazon - 26 Euro's including postage...
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: toledobass on June 15, 2007, 10:06:59 AM
I like the Sanderling performance, too.  Maybe not always my first choice but I find that whenever I listen to the disks I'm engaged from start to finish.  I find he has a lot to offer me in this repertoire.  Some of the tempos seem slow sometimes but he still manages to create a weighty intensity that I find fits the symphonies very well.  I pointed out this box to Sarge not too long ago:

Sanderling Box (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/lang/en/currency/USD/rsk/hitlist/rk/home/hnum/4466204)

Allan
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: SimonGodders on June 15, 2007, 10:16:29 AM
Quote from: toledobass on June 15, 2007, 10:06:59 AM
I like the Sanderling performance, too.  Maybe not always my first choice but I find that whenever I listen to the disks I'm engaged from start to finish.  I find he has a lot to offer me in this repertoire.  Some of the tempos seem slow sometimes but he still manages to create a weighty intensity that I find fits the symphonies very well.  I pointed out this box to Sarge not too long ago:

Sanderling Box (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/lang/en/currency/USD/rsk/hitlist/rk/home/hnum/4466204)

Allan

Yes, engagement is the word! Sanderling certainly keeps me on my toes in these performances thus far. Tempos are on the slow side, but crucially, don't feel slow. I'm really chuffed with this purchase and they seem very complimentary to the Mravinsky, Barshai and other bits and bobs I'm steadily acquiring.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on June 15, 2007, 10:26:13 AM
"Bits and bobs" . . . I like it!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: SimonGodders on June 15, 2007, 10:47:36 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 15, 2007, 10:26:13 AM
"Bits and bobs" . . . I like it!

Not the most descriptive of phrases, granted! It's just the way I'm building my Shostakovich symphonic collection, shunning the box-set 'method' as it were...
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 15, 2007, 11:09:47 AM
Quote from: toledobass on June 15, 2007, 10:06:59 AM
I like the Sanderling performance, too.  Maybe not always my first choice but I find that whenever I listen to the disks I'm engaged from start to finish.  I find he has a lot to offer me in this repertoire.  Some of the tempos seem slow sometimes but he still manages to create a weighty intensity that I find fits the symphonies very well.  I pointed out this box to Sarge not too long ago:

Sanderling Box (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/lang/en/currency/USD/rsk/hitlist/rk/home/hnum/4466204)

Allan

Thanks again, Allan. I did order it. Maybe Sanderling's will be the 6th that finally satisfies completely. Looking forward to hearing his Bruckner 3rd too...and the Sibelius!

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on June 15, 2007, 01:28:09 PM
Quote from: SimonGodders on June 15, 2007, 10:47:36 AM
Not the most descriptive of phrases, granted! It's just the way I'm building my Shostakovich symphonic collection, shunning the box-set 'method' as it were...

That's the direction I went at first myself. I really wanted the complete Rozhdesvensky cycle, but only got about half. The rest are Mravinsky, Bernstein, Ormandy and Rostropovich (LSO.)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: SimonGodders on June 15, 2007, 01:52:22 PM
Quote from: George on June 15, 2007, 01:28:09 PM
That's the direction I went at first myself. I really wanted the complete Rozhdesvensky cycle, but only got about half. The rest are Mravinsky, Bernstein, Ormandy and Rostropovich (LSO.)

The Rozh' discs seem quite hard to get hold of and also seem expensive when you find them, are they good? Decent sound?

I've got some Mravinsky and Bernstein, I thought you had the Kondrashin cycle? I've started downloading that from Operashare  ;)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on June 15, 2007, 07:41:17 PM
Quote from: SimonGodders on June 15, 2007, 01:52:22 PM
The Rozh' discs seem quite hard to get hold of and also seem expensive when you find them, are they good? Decent sound?

I've got some Mravinsky and Bernstein, I thought you had the Kondrashin cycle? I've started downloading that from Operashare  ;)

The first time I built a cycle of singles. I got Rozh's 1,2,3,4,7,8,12. Then I got Rostropovich's (and Hatink's) 5, Mravinsky's (and Bernstein's) 6, Haitink and Bernstein's 9, Karajan's 10, Mravinsky's 11, the Naxos version (Slovak) of 13 and 14 and Ormandy's 15.

THEN I got Kondrashin's cycle.  8)

Yes, the Rozh discs are outstanding. The sound is a bit strident, but otherwise clear and in your face. My favorite conductor for DSCH. :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: SimonGodders on June 15, 2007, 08:25:59 PM
Quote from: George on June 15, 2007, 07:41:17 PM

Yes, the Rozh discs are outstanding. The sound is a bit strident, but otherwise clear and in your face. My favorite conductor for DSCH. :)


Shall keep an eye out for them in that case...
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: SimonGodders on June 15, 2007, 09:33:17 PM
Quote from: George on June 15, 2007, 07:41:17 PM
Yes, the Rozh discs are outstanding. The sound is a bit strident, but otherwise clear and in your face. My favorite conductor for DSCH. :)

Just ordered Rozh doing the fourth, so will be interested to hear.
:)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: sidoze on June 16, 2007, 02:09:18 AM
Quote from: SimonGodders on June 15, 2007, 09:33:17 PM
Just ordered Rozh doing the fourth, so will be interested to hear.
:)

I like that most of his cycle. BMG or Olympia, Simon?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: rubio on June 16, 2007, 02:33:17 AM
Quote from: George on June 15, 2007, 07:41:17 PM
The first time I built a cycle of singles. I got Rozh's 1,2,3,4,7,8,12. Then I got Rostropovich's (and Hatink's) 5, Mravinsky's (and Bernstein's) 6, Haitink and Bernstein's 9, Karajan's 10, Mravinsky's 11, the Naxos version (Slovak) of 13 and 14 and Ormandy's 15.

THEN I got Kondrashin's cycle.  8)

Yes, the Rozh discs are outstanding. The sound is a bit strident, but otherwise clear and in your face. My favorite conductor for DSCH. :)


Which symphonies of the Rozh cycle would you consider favourite performances of the given symphony? I have already ordered the Praga 4th which I have heard many positive things about. Any other performances on this level (or close)?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on June 16, 2007, 05:05:55 AM
Quote from: rubio on June 16, 2007, 02:33:17 AM
Which symphonies of the Rozh cycle would you consider favourite performances of the given symphony? I have already ordered the Praga 4th which I have heard many positive things about. Any other performances on this level (or close)?

Of the ones that I have heard, I believe that they are all on the same level. The disc with 1 and 3 is easy to find and mid-priced.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on June 16, 2007, 05:07:02 AM
Quote from: SimonGodders on June 15, 2007, 09:33:17 PM
Just ordered Rozh doing the fourth, so will be interested to hear.
:)

Let me know!  :)

The Mravinsky 11 on Chant du Monde is incredible as well!  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: rubio on June 16, 2007, 09:32:14 AM
Quote from: George on June 16, 2007, 05:07:02 AM
Let me know!  :)

The Mravinsky 11 on Chant du Monde is incredible as well!  :)

I have the Mravinsky 11th on Melodiya in the below box set (haven't listened to it yet). It is from 02.02.1959. Is it the same performance as the Praga?

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/48/71/1dae225b9da032cbec5e0110._AA240_.L.jpg)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 16, 2007, 11:10:22 AM
Quote from: rubio on June 16, 2007, 02:33:17 AM
Which symphonies of the Rozh cycle would you consider favourite performances of the given symphony?

I agree with everything George has said. Rozh is one of my favorite Shostakovich conductors too. I own 4, 6, 7, 8, 10, and 12 in Melodiya editions manufactured in Germany. I wish I owned 5 and 9 too. The recordings are bright, with occasional glare and harshness in tuttis. There's instrumental spotlighting but at least that lets you hear details well. As I wrote earlier, these aren't pretty recordings but they aren't what I would call bad either. (I have read that the First actually is bad. I don't know. Maybe George would add a further comment.)

I wouldn't hesitate to recommend any of the ones I own, but my two favorites are these:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/new/ShoRoz4.jpg)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/new/Schos10R.jpg)

They are both great performances, among the best. The Fourth is especially interesting because the last movement is marked Allegretto instead of Allegro and Rozh is slower than other performances. There is a rumour that he had access to a definitive score.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on June 16, 2007, 04:24:40 PM
Quote from: rubio on June 16, 2007, 09:32:14 AM
I have the Mravinsky 11th on Melodiya in the below box set (haven't listened to it yet). It is from 02.02.1959. Is it the same performance as the Praga?

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/48/71/1dae225b9da032cbec5e0110._AA240_.L.jpg)

Nope. Mine is from 1967 with the Leningrad PO.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Drasko on June 16, 2007, 04:39:11 PM
Quote from: George on June 16, 2007, 04:24:40 PM
Nope. Mine is from 1967 with the Leningrad PO.

Yep, one and the same - 1967 live Prague = 1959 studio with added audience noise.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on June 16, 2007, 04:43:58 PM
Quote from: Drasko on June 16, 2007, 04:39:11 PM
Yep, one and the same - 1967 live Prague = 1959 studio with added audience noise.

Right, my bad.

Boy, beauty and brains....
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Drasko on June 16, 2007, 04:54:29 PM
<blush>
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on June 24, 2007, 12:43:38 PM
Just out of curiosity:  has anyone else (apart from Don, Bunny and yours truly) listened at all to the Maksim Dmitriyevich set?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: SimonGodders on June 24, 2007, 01:25:49 PM
Quote from: sidoze on June 16, 2007, 02:09:18 AM
I like that most of his cycle. BMG or Olympia, Simon?

Neither, Russian Disc:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000001LP4/104-5908801-4745533

:-\
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: SimonGodders on June 24, 2007, 08:27:00 PM
Quote from: sidoze on June 16, 2007, 02:09:18 AM
I like that most of his cycle. BMG or Olympia, Simon?

They are the same performances though, aren't they? Sound-wise, is there much difference? I've just found somewhere I can get hold of the Olympia discs at a price.... >:D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on July 02, 2007, 10:33:45 AM
Quote from: Steve on May 04, 2007, 01:44:35 PM
I envy you, Danny, as I'm still on the hunt for the perfect 10th.

What keeps the Jansons in Less Than Perfect mode by you, Steve, in the Tenth?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: M forever on July 02, 2007, 10:38:07 AM
Speaking of the tenth, I recently discovered there is a recording of that with the Cleveland Orchestra and Christoph von D. Does anyone have that?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on July 05, 2007, 05:45:16 AM
Quote from: M forever on July 02, 2007, 10:38:07 AM
Speaking of the tenth, I recently discovered there is a recording of that with the Cleveland Orchestra and Christoph von D. Does anyone have that?

Well?

I do not, but the first time I heard the piece, it was played by the Clevelanders.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 05, 2007, 06:39:20 AM
Quote from: M forever on July 02, 2007, 10:38:07 AM
Speaking of the tenth, I recently discovered there is a recording of that with the Cleveland Orchestra and Christoph von D. Does anyone have that?

I missed it. I can't recall ever seeing it in a shop in the 90s. Like many of Dohnányi's now OOP recordings with the Cleveland, sellers are asking ridiculous prices for this disc ($149 :o)

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on July 05, 2007, 06:41:38 AM
However good it might be, it would not be worth that, Sarge.

(Paging paulb, white courtesy telephone, please.)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 05, 2007, 06:44:42 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 05, 2007, 06:41:38 AM
However good it might be, it would not be worth that, Sarge.

(Paging paulb, white courtesy telephone, please.)

You're right. Stilll, it's my hometown band and I'd like to hear it. Even more interesting is the filler (Lutoslawski Funeral music) because I've never heard that.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: not edward on July 05, 2007, 09:57:26 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 05, 2007, 06:44:42 AM
You're right. Stilll, it's my hometown band and I'd like to hear it. Even more interesting is the filler (Lutoslawski Funeral music) because I've never heard that.

Sarge
The filler's now on a Double Decca (with more Lutoslawski and a disc of Szymanowski). Dohnanyi's Funeral music isn't very good, though, IMO.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on July 05, 2007, 10:00:52 AM
Quote from: edward on July 05, 2007, 09:57:26 AM
The filler's now on a Double Decca (with more Lutoslawski and a disc of Szymanowski). Dohnanyi's Funeral music isn't very good, though, IMO.

At the risk of veering wildly off topic . . . whom do you prefer in the Musique funèbre, Edward?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: not edward on July 05, 2007, 10:01:59 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 05, 2007, 10:00:52 AM
At the risk of veering wildly off topic . . . whom do you prefer in the Musique funèbre, Edward?
Without getting them all down and comparing them, the one I've tended to return to is Rowicki on the 2CD Philips set (Rowicki's also my favourite in the Concerto for Orchestra).
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 05, 2007, 11:00:52 AM
Quote from: edward on July 05, 2007, 09:57:26 AM
The filler's now on a Double Decca (with more Lutoslawski and a disc of Szymanowski). Dohnanyi's Funeral music isn't very good, though, IMO.

That one's OOP too...and expensive. I'm not having much luck today  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on July 05, 2007, 12:03:04 PM

Just acquired the Barshai set today.

Thank you to "you know who you are!"  :)

So I should soon return to my Kondrashin set so that I can move on to the Barshai.  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: M forever on July 06, 2007, 02:05:35 AM
Stand by. I may have found a source for the Dohnányi 10th. It may take a few days though. Best if you try not to piss me off in the meantime, if you want to hear it  ;D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 06, 2007, 07:47:52 AM
Quote from: M forever on July 06, 2007, 02:05:35 AM
Stand by. I may have found a source for the Dohnányi 10th. It may take a few days though. Best if you try not to piss me off in the meantime, if you want to hear it  ;D

Damn...and I was just about to enter the fray at the Beethoven HIP thread too.

I'll just have to bite my tongue and wait a bit then...until you deliver the goods. After that I can safely piss you off.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on July 13, 2007, 04:32:35 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 16, 2007, 11:10:22 AM
They are both great performances, among the best. The Fourth is especially interesting because the last movement is marked Allegretto instead of Allegro and Rozh is slower than other performances. There is a rumour that he had access to a definitive score.

Well, that's curious.  FWIW . . . .

According to Kondrashin, the score to the Fourth was lost during the war. Shostakovich's friend Atovmyan found the surviving orchestral parts in Leningrad, and from them drew up a two-piano version (truly, a friend's part, and a labor of love).

Quote from: KondrashinI went to see Shostakovich. He said, 'Here on the piano is the version of the score that you have seen. As the full score was lost I've forgotten much of it. I need to look at it again to see whether the Symphony is worth performing, and whether it requires any changes.'

The next day he rang me. 'Kirill Petrovich, I'd be very happy for you to perform the Symphony. No changes need to be made. The piece is very dear to me as it is.'
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on July 13, 2007, 04:35:18 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 11, 2007, 04:08:54 PM
My wife really digs the Leningrad. But she says the Roz. recordings on Russian Revelations sucks sound-wise.

Whom does your esteemed wife prefer in the 'Leningrad', PW?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on July 13, 2007, 04:40:51 AM
Quote from: M forever on July 06, 2007, 02:05:35 AM
Stand by. I may have found a source for the Dohnányi 10th. It may take a few days though.

Nu?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on July 13, 2007, 04:44:57 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2007, 04:21:44 PM
They don't have the prettiest sound: they are very upfront and in your face; climactic moments can be glaring and harsh. But you get used to it.

I don't know, Sarge;  there is at least some music, in each of the 15 symphonies, which demands and deserves pretty sound.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on July 13, 2007, 09:18:28 AM
Quote from: George on July 05, 2007, 12:03:04 PM
Just acquired the Barshai set today.

Thank you to "you know who you are!"  :)

So I should soon return to my Kondrashin set so that I can move on to the Barshai.  :)

Nu?

:)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: M forever on July 13, 2007, 09:38:26 AM
I just contacted my "source". He said he was working on it. I can't tell you more at this time. I could, but then I would have to kill you.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on July 13, 2007, 09:45:43 AM
Thanks for the update; your discretion, especially, is appreciated.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on July 13, 2007, 09:46:52 AM
The Jansons recording of the Fourth is excellent, another credit to the cycle.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: M forever on July 13, 2007, 09:52:23 AM
Oh yes, that's really great. :)

Quote from: karlhenning on July 13, 2007, 09:45:43 AM
Thanks for the update; your discretion, especially, is appreciated.

I am just trying to protect you. 8)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on July 13, 2007, 05:41:53 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 13, 2007, 09:18:28 AM
Nu?

:)

???
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on July 14, 2007, 08:01:13 AM
My  nu as meant to convey, as concisely as possible, two friendly queries, George: a. Has your listening included your intended (re-)visits to the Barshai and Kondrashin sets; and b. what have you discovered?

Didn't mean to confuse you :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on July 14, 2007, 06:59:24 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 14, 2007, 08:01:13 AM
My  nu as meant to convey, as concisely as possible, two friendly queries, George: a. Has your listening included your intended (re-)visits to the Barshai and Kondrashin sets; and b. what have you discovered?

Didn't mean to confuse you :)

I didn't think you meant to, but I didn't understand and the  ??? concisely communicated my confusion.  :)

Nu is what? (and?) In what language (Russian?)

No, I haven't returned to my listening because I haven't been emotionally ready for Kondrashin's 11.  :-\

I listened to Barshai's 1 and was dissapointed. Could have been the timing, so I will revisit and report back. 
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: M forever on July 16, 2007, 08:23:56 PM
So, are you still interested in hearing the extremely rare and very hard to find but as it turns out highly interesting DSCH10 with the Cleveland Orchestra and Christoph von D?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on July 28, 2007, 02:52:44 AM
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/Jan07/Shostakovich_Kondrashin_MELCD1001065.gif)


Review of the above set from Music Web (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/Feb07/Shostakovich_Kondrashin_MELCD1010165.htm)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Greta on August 11, 2007, 06:17:58 AM
Jansons 5th with VPO, heard this on the radio:

Quote(there's a really interesting gear change in the Finale that will either repulse you or excite you)

Do I give it away?  ;D I thought it was kind of gimmicky but fun. I assume you're talking about the opening, as he begins quite slow and then suddenly ratchets up to high speed. I also really like his stately speed of the middle! When the brass come in for the end, it makes that so dramatic, and shows off the WP brass at those speeds. In the ending, the endurance of the WP is really something.

I loved this performance. Concise, pulled-together interpretation, musically interesting, blazing playing which alone makes it attractive. I would have loved to have heard that one live for sure!  ;)


Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: M forever on August 11, 2007, 11:46:55 AM
I heard Jansons conduct the 5th in Berlin in the mid-late 80s (1886 or so?). That was actually his debut with the BP. The program included A Night on the Bare Mountain ("unfortunately" the Rimsky-Korsakov version), Dvořák's cello concerto with Antonio Meneses and DSCH5. I remember he wasn't that well known back then, although I had heard about (but not actually heard) his Tchaikovsky recordings in Oslo. It was a stunning debut. Jansons' conducting impressed audience and orchestra alike because of his high degree of control and elegant technique - he is one of the few conductors who actually *has* a developed conducting technique which allows him to show a lot of things in his beat, like Maazel. Anyway, it was a great concert and then he came back regularly. I also remember a concert with him a few years later with Fauré's P+M and Eine Alpensinfonie which was very, very good.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on August 11, 2007, 12:02:53 PM
Quote from: M forever on August 11, 2007, 11:46:55 AM
I heard Jansons conduct the 5th in Berlin in the mid-late 80s (1886 or so?). That was actually his debut with the BP. The program included A Night on the Bare Mountain ("unfortunately" the Rimsky-Korsakov version), Dvořák's cello concerto with Antonio Meneses and DSCH5. *** Anyway, it was a great concert and then he came back regularly.

Great program!!  8) (notwithstanding the Rimskyization of Mussorgsky's Night on Bare Mountain  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'()
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Renfield on August 12, 2007, 12:55:12 AM
Quote from: D Minor on August 11, 2007, 12:02:53 PM
Great program!!  8) (notwithstanding the Rimskyization of Mussorgsky's Night on Bare Mountain  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'()

Yes, I never get why Rimsky-Korsakov's tampering with Night on Bare Mountain is as tolerated/liked, or even preferred to Mussorgsky's original piece as it seems to be. Setting aside the whole notion of performing pieces as the composer wrote them (see the whole debate about the various editions of the Bruckner symphonies, for instance), the original is better music!

Or at least to my ears, it is... If you smooth over everything that's ragged, in what way does what is left resemble the "horror" setting of the original Night on Bare Mountain!? That's like playing only the "happy" parts of Tchaikovsky's Pathetique, so as not to unsettle the audience. ::)

Edit: Wait, I just realised I'm off topic. Concerning Shostakovich symphony cycles, I have little to add to the discussion... I have the Haitink, which I find slightly over-refined but not all that bad, and the Kondrashin, which I consider no less than sublime. Though Mravinsky's 8th and Karajan's 10th are in a class of their own, as well. 8)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on August 24, 2007, 10:41:41 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 06, 2007, 07:47:52 AM
Damn...and I was just about to enter the fray at the Beethoven HIP thread too.

I'll just have to bite my tongue and wait a bit then...until you deliver the goods. After that I can safely piss you off.

Well, Sarge?  ;D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 26, 2007, 05:37:04 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 24, 2007, 10:41:41 AM
Well, Sarge?  ;D

I downloaded it shortly before I left for France and I still haven't listened to it. In fact, I haven't listened to much music at all for almost a month now--taking a sabbatical, resting my ears...and too, I've been incredibly busy this week preparing for the arrival of guests from the States. I'm not likely to get back into a regular routine (including participation here) until after they leave. I should listen to the Alpensinfonie though...we're going to Garmisch to ascend the Zugspitz.

As far as pissing off M...well, I've really been tempted a few times but he's been such a nice boy lately, so well-mannered and well-spoken, I'd hate to be the one to set him off  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Bogey on August 26, 2007, 05:50:12 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 26, 2007, 05:37:04 AM

As far as pissing off M...well, I've really been tempted a few times but he's been such a nice boy lately, so well-mannered and well-spoken, I'd hate to be the one to set him off  :D

Sarge

This is a great example why one must read all of Sarge's posts, even if the topic may not on the surface be of great interest to one.  One always finds hidden treasures within. LOL.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on August 26, 2007, 05:52:37 AM
Quote from: Bogey on August 26, 2007, 05:50:12 AM
This is a great example why one must read all of Sarge's posts, even if the topic may not on the surface be of great interest to one.  One always finds hidden treasures within. LOL.

:D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: rw1883 on September 09, 2007, 09:01:37 AM
I bought this Kondrashin set through Ebay a few months back:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Shostakovich-Complete-Symphonies-Kondrashin-12CDs-BOX_W0QQitemZ260157192719QQihZ016QQcategoryZ307QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/Shostakovich-Complete-Symphonies-Kondrashin-12CDs-BOX_W0QQitemZ260157192719QQihZ016QQcategoryZ307QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

I've only gone through #8 really enjoying all the performances so far, but I find the sound to be really bright at times.  Does the Aulos or Melodiya set compare favorably transfer-wise? 
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: sound67 on September 09, 2007, 10:14:51 AM
Don't know about this release, but the latest Melodiya makeover is stubstantial improvement over the BMG version of the 1990s.

Thomas
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on September 09, 2007, 11:16:34 AM
Quote from: sound67 on September 09, 2007, 10:14:51 AM
Don't know about this release, but the latest Melodiya makeover is stubstantial improvement over the BMG version of the 1990s.

Thomas

Indeed it is.  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on September 10, 2007, 11:33:27 AM
Sacrée vache, can you believe that russiandvd.com has the Barshai set for $85?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on September 10, 2007, 11:41:14 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 10, 2007, 11:33:27 AM
Barshai set for $85?

Supply-demand ........
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on September 10, 2007, 11:46:33 AM
Do you suppose paulb is supplying russiandvd, mon vieux?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on September 10, 2007, 11:50:47 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 26, 2007, 05:37:04 AM
I downloaded it shortly before I left for France and I still haven't listened to it.

Well, Sarge?  8)

(I, too, am at the "have downloaded, but have yet to listen" stage . . . .)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on September 10, 2007, 12:10:50 PM
Sacrée vache, can you believe that Amazon.com has the Maksim Dmitriyevich set for $112?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BachQ on September 10, 2007, 12:16:23 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 10, 2007, 11:33:27 AM
Sacrée vache, can you believe that russiandvd.com has the Barshai set for $85?

Quote from: karlhenning on September 10, 2007, 12:10:50 PM
Sacrée vache, can you believe that Amazon.com has the Maksim Dmitriyevich set for $112?

Yippee ........ Karl has found a new activity ........
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on September 10, 2007, 03:20:24 PM
Quote from: D Minor on September 10, 2007, 12:16:23 PM
Yippee ........ Karl has found a new activity ........

Tireless searching, and clean living, mon vieux

Great signature, BTW!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Lady Chatterley on September 10, 2007, 03:28:35 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 10, 2007, 03:20:24 PM
Tireless searching, and clean living, mon vieux

Great signature, BTW!

Positively Mesmerizing!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on September 10, 2007, 03:29:04 PM
Hi, Muriel!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: rw1883 on September 12, 2007, 09:06:03 AM
I would like to get one more cycle to add to my collection (I have the Kondrashin, Barshai, & Rozhdestvensky).  I'm debating between the Jansons or M. Shostakovich (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B000I8OIHK/sr=1-3/qid=1189616646/ref=dp_image_0/102-9817053-6018502?ie=UTF8&n=5174&s=music&qid=1189616646&sr=1-3 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B000I8OIHK/sr=1-3/qid=1189616646/ref=dp_image_0/102-9817053-6018502?ie=UTF8&n=5174&s=music&qid=1189616646&sr=1-3))...if you had the choice, which one would you buy? 
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on September 12, 2007, 09:31:37 AM
In a sense, I have chosen: I've bought the Maksim Dmitriyevich set, and not the Jansons . . . although I have heard a number of fine symphonies from the Jansons set.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: sound67 on September 12, 2007, 11:42:13 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 12, 2007, 09:31:37 AM
In a sense, I have chosen: I've bought the Maksim Dmitriyevich set, and not the Jansons . . . although I have heard a number of fine symphonies from the Jansons set.

Your choice was not wise. The Maxim cycle (the Prague Symphony one) is certainly not bad, but the orchestra is not quite first rate. The Bavarian Radio Symphony is, and the Jansons cycle is outstanding in those performances where they're playing.

Thomas
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: alkan on September 13, 2007, 12:25:58 AM
Quote from: rw1883 on September 12, 2007, 09:06:03 AM
I would like to get one more cycle to add to my collection (I have the Kondrashin, Barshai, & Rozhdestvensky).  I'm debating between the Jansons or M. Shostakovich (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B000I8OIHK/sr=1-3/qid=1189616646/ref=dp_image_0/102-9817053-6018502?ie=UTF8&n=5174&s=music&qid=1189616646&sr=1-3 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B000I8OIHK/sr=1-3/qid=1189616646/ref=dp_image_0/102-9817053-6018502?ie=UTF8&n=5174&s=music&qid=1189616646&sr=1-3))...if you had the choice, which one would you buy? 

Since you already have three excellent cycles, I would go for something different.      My recommendation is the Sanderling set.     It is incomplete   (1, 5, 6, 8, 10, 15 only) but the performances are devastating and quite a shock after someone like Kondrashin.         Sanderling was living in Russia at the time that this music was being written, and was a friend of Shostakovich.     For me, the outstanding feature of his interpretations is the feeling that this is authentic ..... someone who has lived (and suffered) through this epoch.      Sanderling's ending of Symph no 5 comes as a real shock if you are used to a more "traditional" ending.       Symphony no 15 is simply spine-chilling.

This set (or individual discs) are still available for Amazon.     

By the way, do you have a preference or recommendation for the 3 sets that you already have ?? 

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on September 13, 2007, 08:34:58 AM
Quote from: sound67 on September 12, 2007, 11:42:13 PM
Your choice was not wise. The Maxim cycle (the Prague Symphony one) is certainly not bad, but the orchestra is not quite first rate.

So, where exactly in the cycle do you find this a problem, Thomas?

Offhand, I can think of only one place where the "not quite first rate" applies, and I don't find that it significantly damages the experience of the symphony.  Do you know where I mean?

QuoteThe Bavarian Radio Symphony is, and the Jansons cycle is outstanding in those performances where they're playing.

That's an extraordinary statement, not so much for the content, as for the context, since you seem to compare this so highly favorably to the Prague Symphony set, Thomas!  And the timing is charming, since only yesterday I listened to the disc with the Prague Symphony and Chorus, and Marina Shaguch and Mikhail Ryssov, performing the Third and Fourteenth Symphonies.  These are, in fact, outstanding readings (and Ryssov sings the best "O Delvig" I have yet heard).

In comparison, yes, the Jansons/Bavarian Radio account of this pair of symphonies is generally very good, but no, I do not find the difference anything like you imply.

My ears are, in fact, content in the wisdom of my choice, thank you very much  0:)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on September 13, 2007, 08:37:42 AM
Quote from: alkan on September 13, 2007, 12:25:58 AM
Sanderling was living in Russia at the time that this music was being written, and was a friend of Shostakovich.

Okay;  now why does this trump Maksim Dmitriyevich, who was living with the composer at the time this music was written, and is the son of Shostakovich?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on September 13, 2007, 08:45:33 AM
Well, I do think that I prefer Ryssov to Aleksashkin in the Fourteenth.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on September 13, 2007, 08:56:08 AM
Amazon third-party seller Caiman has the Jansons set for $38, which is a good price for such a good set.  The Jansons/Phila Tenth was for long my favorite account of that symphony, and I won't sniff at it now;  it's a shame that in boxing up the complete set, they dropped the companion performance of Robt Lloyd singing the Musorgsky  Songs & Dances of Death!  OTOH, that 'original' disc is now one of those available as ArkivCDs . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: rw1883 on September 13, 2007, 09:44:58 AM
Quote from: alkan on September 13, 2007, 12:25:58 AM
Since you already have three excellent cycles, I would go for something different.      My recommendation is the Sanderling set.     It is incomplete   (1, 5, 6, 8, 10, 15 only) but the performances are devastating and quite a shock after someone like Kondrashin.         Sanderling was living in Russia at the time that this music was being written, and was a friend of Shostakovich.     For me, the outstanding feature of his interpretations is the feeling that this is authentic ..... someone who has lived (and suffered) through this epoch.      Sanderling's ending of Symph no 5 comes as a real shock if you are used to a more "traditional" ending.       Symphony no 15 is simply spine-chilling.

This set (or individual discs) are still available for Amazon.     

By the way, do you have a preference or recommendation for the 3 sets that you already have ?? 



It's funny you mentioned the Sanderling because I have it my cart at Amazon.  There have been quite a few members that have mentioned that set.  I'm going with your suggestion and will buy the Sanderling this week (of course I'll probably buy one of the Jansons/M. Shostakovich at some point later).

For the past couple of months I've been listening to all the Shostakovich symphonies I have in numerical order.  With the three sets, plus all the singles, it has taken me some time.  So far I like all three, but my favorite would have to be the Rozhdestvensky.  The Kondrashin I have is from a seller at Ebay.  The sound can be very bright and tinny at times so at some point I'll buy the Melodiya release.  All three sets definitely have their merits and drawbacks (what cycle doesn't?), but if I had money just to buy one it would be the Rozhdestvensky (if you could find it!).
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on September 13, 2007, 05:40:24 PM
Quote from: rw1883 on September 13, 2007, 09:44:58 AM
So far I like all three, but my favorite would have to be the Rozhdestvensky. 

I absolutely agree. I don't have the whole set, but the 6 or 7 that I have are incredible.

Quote
The Kondrashin I have is from a seller at Ebay.  The sound can be very bright and tinny at times so at some point I'll buy the Melodiya release.

A wise move. I have it and though I haven't heard the earlier one, I have no problem at all with the sound.

Quote
All three sets definitely have their merits and drawbacks (what cycle doesn't?), but if I had money just to buy one it would be the Rozhdestvensky (if you could find it!).

Indeed, and if you do find it, let us know?  ???
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: alkan on September 14, 2007, 12:21:03 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 13, 2007, 08:37:42 AM
Okay;  now why does this trump Maksim Dmitriyevich, who was living with the composer at the time this music was written, and is the son of Shostakovich?

Hi Karl,
Well it doesn't, but I didn't see it as a competition !      I have heard Maxim's recordings of 5 and 15, but a long time ago.     I remember them as being very good, especially 15  (which I think is a world premiere recording).      My personal preference remains with Sanderling (for now), but I don't think anyone will be disappointed by Shostakovich's son.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: alkan on September 14, 2007, 12:31:12 AM
Quote from: rw1883 on September 13, 2007, 09:44:58 AM
It's funny you mentioned the Sanderling because I have it my cart at Amazon.  There have been quite a few members that have mentioned that set.  I'm going with your suggestion and will buy the Sanderling this week (of course I'll probably buy one of the Jansons/M. Shostakovich at some point later).

For the past couple of months I've been listening to all the Shostakovich symphonies I have in numerical order.  With the three sets, plus all the singles, it has taken me some time.  So far I like all three, but my favorite would have to be the Rozhdestvensky.  The Kondrashin I have is from a seller at Ebay.  The sound can be very bright and tinny at times so at some point I'll buy the Melodiya release.  All three sets definitely have their merits and drawbacks (what cycle doesn't?), but if I had money just to buy one it would be the Rozhdestvensky (if you could find it!).

I hope our tastes coincide and you enjoy the Sanderling versions.     It would be interesting to hear your feedback after a first hearing.      Small point, but the notes (written in the form of an interview with Sanderling) are very illuminating and a real bonus to this set.

With Kondrashin I have 2 outstanding favourites ..... 8 and 4.       I love the 2nd scherzo in the 8th, with its incredible drive and the pounding drums (like a monstrous machine running out of control) at the climax.       The 4th is great too, except for the sound which is pretty dry.    I have just bought the Simon Rattle version and it is amazingly good.      I have heard the Rozhdestvensky version of the 4th on the radio and I loved it ..... but I can't find it at a reasonable price.    But when I do I will get it.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: sound67 on September 14, 2007, 12:39:14 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 13, 2007, 08:34:58 AM
So, where exactly in the cycle do you find this a problem, Thomas?

Offhand, I can think of only one place where the "not quite first rate" applies, and I don't find that it significantly damages the experience of the symphony.

IIRC you were the one who so vigorously criticzed Järvi's Glasgow recordings on the basis of the alleged inadequacy of the Royal Scottish National. Well, in comparison to the Prague Symphony, all braying brass and occasionally awkward strings (but with beautiful wind solos as compensation), the RSNO are a model of discipline and tonal security. Some have called the style that is evident in the Prague recordings as "authentic", with reference to the less-than-alluring sound of the Russian orchestras of yore.

The Sanderling recordings are indeed very good. I wish he had recorded the complete cycle of 15.

Thomas
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on September 14, 2007, 05:35:41 AM
Quote from: alkan on September 14, 2007, 12:21:03 AM
Well it doesn't, but I didn't see it as a competition!

Very good.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on September 14, 2007, 05:37:09 AM
Quote from: sound67 on September 14, 2007, 12:39:14 AM
IIRC you were the one who so vigorously criticized Järvi's Glasgow recordings on the basis of the alleged inadequacy of the Royal Scottish National.

You don't, not correctly.  Any criticism I have had of Järvi's recordings had to do with questions of Järvi's preparation/direction. The Royal Scottish National is an excellent orchestra.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on September 14, 2007, 05:43:25 AM
Quote from: sound67 on September 14, 2007, 12:39:14 AM
Well, in comparison to the Prague Symphony, all braying brass and occasionally awkward strings (but with beautiful wind solos as compensation), the RSNO are a model of discipline and tonal security. Some have called the style that is evident in the Prague recordings as "authentic", with reference to the less-than-alluring sound of the Russian orchestras of yore.

Quite apart from your mistaken recollection at the outset, Thomas, I am disappointed that you did not address this question, which I thought phrased clearly:

Quote from: karlhenningSo, where exactly in the cycle do you find this a problem, Thomas?

Sure, I'll generally agree that the RSNO (heaven knows how you thought I had talked them down) is a finer outfit than the Prague Symphony. Where specifically, in Maksim Dmitriyevich's cycle, do you find this an issue?  Apart from one instance to which I alluded (which I do not find seriously "damaging"), I hear the orchestra playing the music capably, and not capably merely.

It isn't Carter, for mercy's sake, Thomas.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on September 14, 2007, 06:25:50 AM
Quote from: sound67 on September 14, 2007, 12:39:14 AM
Well, in comparison to the Prague Symphony, all braying brass and occasionally awkward strings (but with beautiful wind solos as compensation)

No, no, the Prague Symphony brass do not "bray," not a whit;  so you must be thinking of some other recordings.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on September 14, 2007, 07:07:26 AM
On the "braying" front . . . Thomas, I have just revisited the Prague Symphony in some of the movements which, one would think, would tax the brass most:  the third movement of the Fourth, and the third and fourth movements of the Seventh.  If the brass are going to "bray," those are the points in the cycle where one would expect that.  If the question is, do the brass, at full throttle, have all the 'coasting' solidity of the CSO in their legendary recordings, with Previn and Bernstein? The answer must be a frank not quite.  But I didn't hear any incontinence sinking to the description of "braying."

So, where exactly do they bray?  We all could use a laugh as well as the next guy, so point me where I should be listening . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: sound67 on September 14, 2007, 08:09:11 AM
Karl, I very distinctly remember you saying that the RSNO weren't together in many places in their Prokofiev recordings under Järvi.

As for any particulars on the Maxim cycle, I'll have to address that after the weekend since the box is in my other flat. You were right, I didn't grasp the meaning of your question (where the Prague Symphony not being absolutely world class is actually posing a problem) at first .

Thomas
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on September 14, 2007, 10:13:13 AM
Quote from: sound67 on September 14, 2007, 08:09:11 AM
Karl, I very distinctly remember you saying that the RSNO weren't together in many places in their Prokofiev recordings under Järvi.

I distinctly said that there is, in particular, a place in the first movement of the Prokofiev Seventh when the violas and the rest of the orchestra are not together.

Thomas, somehow you are taking this fact (not an allegation, it's there in the document) as "alleged inadequacy of the Royal Scottish National."  I don't know how you get from point A to point B.  They are a fine orchestra;  I am apt to lay this instance of non-ensemble at the conductor's feet.  I'm sure they could have played it well, with the right conductor  8)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on September 14, 2007, 10:19:04 AM
BTW, I have with great pleasure revisited the Fourth and Fifteenth in the Jansons cycle; excellent.

I still won't hear of the Maksim Dmitriyevich cycle being "unwisdom," Thos :-)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on September 27, 2007, 10:46:39 AM
Quote from: rw1883 on September 13, 2007, 09:44:58 AM
It's funny you mentioned the Sanderling because I have it my cart at Amazon.  There have been quite a few members that have mentioned that set.  I'm going with your suggestion and will buy the Sanderling this week (of course I'll probably buy one of the Jansons/M. Shostakovich at some point later).

For the past couple of months I've been listening to all the Shostakovich symphonies I have in numerical order.  With the three sets, plus all the singles, it has taken me some time.  So far I like all three, but my favorite would have to be the Rozhdestvensky.  The Kondrashin I have is from a seller at Ebay.  The sound can be very bright and tinny at times so at some point I'll buy the Melodiya release.  All three sets definitely have their merits and drawbacks (what cycle doesn't?), but if I had money just to buy one it would be the Rozhdestvensky (if you could find it!).

Well, what news?  8)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: rw1883 on September 27, 2007, 03:45:21 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 27, 2007, 10:46:39 AM
Well, what news?  8)


The set hasn't arrived, but it should be here today or tomorrow.  Sometimes Caiman (Amazon) can be slow, but usually the price is right.  I'll give you an update sometime next week...

Paul
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on October 02, 2007, 08:02:09 AM
Caiman has always delivered promptly when I've ordered from them (as an amazon.com third-party seller).

This season, we'll be hearing the BSO in the Fourth and Fifth Symphonies;  they played the Eighth so brilliantly, that I am really looking forward to both of these concerts, in particular!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Guido on October 10, 2007, 10:21:29 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shostakovich#Orthodoxy_and_revisionism

This article seems bizarre to me - treating the idea that Shostakovich didn't really believe in regime and hated Stalin etc. as a controversial theory... Surely even before Testament people realised that he was not a 'state composer'. Also the fact that literally everyone he had contact with agrees with the 'revisionist' view (what view is being revised, and who held the view, and at what time). How could anyone listen to the music and think that he was a happy communist? And the final comment that overpoliticising the music detracts from it is also plainly ridiculous - part of the reason that it is such poignant and affecting music is precisely because of its message. It seems ridiculous to even type this.

Also I found this article by Robin Holloway to be very surprising reading. I was sure that most people get over the 'I hate such and such a famous composer' phase by about the age of 18.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3724/is_200008/ai_n8906382


Also this comment:

QuoteOne prominent criticism of Shostakovich has been that his symphonic work in particular is, as Shostakovich scholar Gerard McBurney summarizes, "derivative ... trashy, empty and second-hand

Why would you be a scholar of something that you think is worthless. Is this guy indeed a scholar in Shostakovich, or is he just another person with a lot of opinions?

I know Shostakovich isn't for everyone, but I haven't seen these views presented so harshly before. Does anyone here agree?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on October 10, 2007, 10:26:09 AM
Yikes, Guido! McBurney needs to find some other line of work  8)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Bonehelm on October 10, 2007, 03:45:14 PM
Anybody have thoughts on Haitink/LPO 5th and 9th? I'm demonoiding it if it's anything better than "good". I really want to get to know Shosty.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BorisG on October 10, 2007, 04:08:28 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on October 10, 2007, 03:45:14 PM
Anybody have thoughts on Haitink/LPO 5th and 9th? I'm demonoiding it if it's anything better than "good". I really want to get to know Shosty.

Nothing to be afraid of. That recording is far better than good.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Bonehelm on October 10, 2007, 04:20:38 PM
Quote from: BorisG on October 10, 2007, 04:08:28 PM
Nothing to be afraid of. That recording is far better than good.
Thanks, BorisG. Any reason in particular as to why it's great?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Renfield on October 10, 2007, 04:24:28 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on October 10, 2007, 04:20:38 PM
Thanks, BorisG. Any reason in particular as to why it's great?

It's one of the best in Haitink's D. Shoch. cycle! And I'd avise you just make the dare and listen to it yourself. ;)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: BorisG on October 10, 2007, 05:19:43 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on October 10, 2007, 04:20:38 PM
Thanks, BorisG. Any reason in particular as to why it's great?

Did I say great? ;) You can make that decision, if you buy and listen.

5 is not overdone, as it is with many. 9 would seemingly be perfect for Haitink, and it is. Enjoy, enjoy.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: The new erato on October 10, 2007, 10:29:18 PM
The one recording from Haitinks cycle I tend to play repeatedly in no 15. Don't know if that makes it a great record, but stil.... VG sound.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Maciek on October 18, 2007, 02:07:37 AM
Quote from: Guido on October 10, 2007, 10:21:29 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shostakovich#Orthodoxy_and_revisionism

This article seems bizarre to me - treating the idea that Shostakovich didn't really believe in regime and hated Stalin etc. as a controversial theory... Surely even before Testament people realised that he was not a 'state composer'. Also the fact that literally everyone he had contact with agrees with the 'revisionist' view (what view is being revised, and who held the view, and at what time). How could anyone listen to the music and think that he was a happy communist?

Hi Guido. I don't have time to peruse the article right now, just wanted to say there's nothing irrational in thinking Shostakovich was a communist. For anyone to have the sort of career he had in Soviet Russia at that time it would have been necessary to at least silently accept the regime, though I think that wouldn't really have been enough. Perhaps enough to stay alive but not to have a career of any sort. This has nothing to do with the quality of the music. He may have been the greatest symphonist of the 20th century but really, he was no martyr. Osip Mandelshtam was a martyr of sorts - and the very lenient sentence he got at first was to be exiled to Ural! And it is said Stalin actually liked the guy!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: ragman1970 on October 30, 2007, 07:49:51 AM
Quote from: donwyn on May 17, 2007, 05:53:25 PM
How interesting!

Speaking of Bychkov, apparently he's embarking on a complete cycle for Avie. Can't confirm that but the signs seem to point to it. Should be interesting.

I've picked up the 7th from this Avie set but haven't ventured further since two of the other recordings - the 8th and 11th - are duplicated on his earlier Berlin Philharmonic releases...and I already have those.

In fact, these Berlin recordings (5, 8, 11) have always held a place in my heart and it saddened me he never went further. I credit my fondness for the 11th to Bychkov's very fine Berlin reading. I wonder how the recent Avie compares...

Anyway, as soon as this cycle(?) moves into territory not duplicated by Bychkov/Berlin I'll likely begin following it very closely. His new 4th is perched right atop my want list...






However, from my point of view Bychkow with the WDR SO will produce at the end a fine set we should not ignore!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on October 30, 2007, 08:15:23 AM
Quote from: Guido on October 10, 2007, 10:21:29 AM
This article seems bizarre to me - treating the idea that Shostakovich didn't really believe in regime and hated Stalin etc. as a controversial theory... Surely even before Testament people realised that he was not a 'state composer'.

Well, that was pretty much the image of Shostakovich exported by Moscow, and here in the States, anyway, few were inclined to question that image before Testimony.

Maciek is right, to be sure, that much of Shostakovich's circumstances appear sufficiently like cooperation, and it is hardly irrational to take the view of Shostakovich as a Communist (even Shostakovich's friends were puzzled, at the least, by his taking official membership in the Party in 1960).  Maciek is right, too, to observe that, much though we might pity the torment he endured, Shostakovich was at least lucky in this, that he survived through it all, where so many cultural figures perished.  (Even Akhmatova, who also hung on by a thread, found it impossible to write any poetry for long years, so at least Shostakovich was able consistently to apply himself to his creative work.)  So to apply the label "martyr" to Shostakovich is overstatement, and dishonors many who did in fact perish.  The case is strong that Shostakovich was not (for most of his career) a "genuine Communist," but instead did what he needed to do to survive (and, to his credit, he did more than merely survive, but also at times used his position to try to help other artists);  but it is a nuanced argument, and travels only with difficulty outside of Russia.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: not edward on October 30, 2007, 09:18:04 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 10, 2007, 10:26:09 AM
Yikes, Guido! McBurney needs to find some other line of work  8)
I'm pretty sure McBurney was summarizing the straw-man argument against Shostakovich; he certainly has great admiration for Shostakovich's work, though I believe he prefers the quartets and song cycles to the symphonies.

I don't think anyone could have studied with Schnittke in the early '80s and have totally rejected Shostakovich's work. ;)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on October 30, 2007, 10:19:36 AM
Thanks for the clarification, Edward!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Varg on January 22, 2008, 08:31:25 PM
Haitink is my very foundation when it comes to Shostakovich symphonies. I only need a few extra recordings to be fully satisfied with my Shosty; the 5th and 8th by Rostropovich (LSO), even if Haitink is magical with both of them, and the 10th by Karajan, which stands in it's own league. Heaven! 0:)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on May 27, 2008, 09:13:08 AM
Does anyone know what's up with russianDVD.com?  I put the Kondrashin box into my cart, and then I get a message that it's out of stock.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: M forever on May 27, 2008, 02:05:52 PM
I only see the Aulos set on russiandvd, and you don't want that anyway.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Bunny on May 27, 2008, 02:37:15 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 27, 2008, 09:13:08 AM
Does anyone know what's up with russianDVD.com?  I put the Kondrashin box into my cart, and then I get a message that it's out of stock.

They are really nice at Russian Dvd, but it's a brickstore with a lot of street business and they are always understaffed.  The online listings always need updating.  Give them a call and see if they can still get the item.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: ezodisy on May 28, 2008, 01:32:13 AM
Quote from: M forever on May 27, 2008, 02:05:52 PM
I only see the Aulos set on russiandvd, and you don't want that anyway.

are you able to confirm that the new Melodiya set, like the Aulos set, uses the stereo recording of the 4th symphony (BMG used the mono)?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Maciek on November 24, 2008, 12:01:18 PM
I don't know how I managed to miss the fact that this thread has moved along a bit since last October... :o ::)

Quote from: karlhenning on October 30, 2007, 08:15:23 AM
Well, that was pretty much the image of Shostakovich exported by Moscow, and here in the States, anyway, few were inclined to question that image before Testimony.

Maciek is right, to be sure, that much of Shostakovich's circumstances appear sufficiently like cooperation, and it is hardly irrational to take the view of Shostakovich as a Communist (even Shostakovich's friends were puzzled, at the least, by his taking official membership in the Party in 1960).  Maciek is right, too, to observe that, much though we might pity the torment he endured, Shostakovich was at least lucky in this, that he survived through it all, where so many cultural figures perished.  (Even Akhmatova, who also hung on by a thread, found it impossible to write any poetry for long years, so at least Shostakovich was able consistently to apply himself to his creative work.)  So to apply the label "martyr" to Shostakovich is overstatement, and dishonors many who did in fact perish.  The case is strong that Shostakovich was not (for most of his career) a "genuine Communist," but instead did what he needed to do to survive (and, to his credit, he did more than merely survive, but also at times used his position to try to help other artists);  but it is a nuanced argument, and travels only with difficulty outside of Russia.

Karl, thanks for a very reasonable reply. I didn't (AFAICR ;D) want my post to sound too dogmatic. As far nuancing goes, you fared much better. ;D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: drogulus on November 24, 2008, 01:10:30 PM


     I'm DL'ing the entire Haitink cycle from Amazon for $11.98. How bad can they be? (they're 256 kbps, more than good enough given what I'm paying)
     
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Maciek on November 24, 2008, 03:45:33 PM
It was my first cycle and I think it's excellent. In some respects (no. 8 comes to mind straight away) it seems (to me) prefect.

(not that I've heard loads upon loads of versions of Shostakovich's symphonies though 0:))
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on January 07, 2009, 09:38:26 AM
Quote from: Maciek on November 24, 2008, 12:01:18 PM
Karl, thanks for a very reasonable reply. I didn't (AFAICR ;D) want my post to sound too dogmatic. As far nuancing goes, you fared much better. ;D

At your service, друг мой!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on January 07, 2009, 09:40:36 AM
Quote from: Maciek on November 24, 2008, 03:45:33 PM

Quote from: ErnieI'm DL'ing the entire Haitink cycle from Amazon for $11.98. How bad can they be? (they're 256 kbps, more than good enough given what I'm paying)

It was my first cycle and I think it's excellent. In some respects (no. 8 comes to mind straight away) it seems (to me) prefect.

Nos. 13 and 14 (apart from Fischer-Dieskau's dodgy Russian pronunciation) are excellent, too, and nos. 6 & 7 are very, very good.  (I haven't heard the entire cycle).
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on January 07, 2009, 09:46:02 AM
Quote from: Bunny on May 27, 2008, 02:37:15 PM
They are really nice at Russian Dvd, but it's a brickstore with a lot of street business and they are always understaffed.  The online listings always need updating.  Give them a call and see if they can still get the item.

I bided my time, and decided that I would just try afresh to order when ready.  Went very smoothly this time;  I placed the order on Saturday evening, reckoning (of course) on their not actually seeing it until Monday morning (and the website says that orders are normally sent in 1-2 business days);  an e-mail message came late yesterday afternoon advising that the order had shipped;  I tracked the package on ups.com this morning, and found that it was already out for delivery here in Boston . . . and poof!  the box was here before lunchtime.

Just starting to go through it.  I expect I'll listen to all the symphonies first, and then go back for the "fillers."

Edit :: typo
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on January 07, 2009, 09:49:37 AM
Quote from: ezodisy on May 28, 2008, 01:32:13 AM
are you able to confirm that the new Melodiya set, like the Aulos set, uses the stereo recording of the 4th symphony (BMG used the mono)?

Sleeve says stereo (recorded in 1966).
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Herman on January 07, 2009, 09:55:31 AM
Quote from: M forever on May 27, 2008, 02:05:52 PM
I only see the Aulos set on russiandvd, and you don't want that anyway.

I'm aware mr M forever can't elucidate this himself, but anyone here who can explain what the problem would be with Aulos?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on January 08, 2009, 11:13:45 AM
Quote from: Herman on January 07, 2009, 09:55:31 AM
I'm aware mr M forever can't elucidate this himself, but anyone here who can explain what the problem would be with Aulos?

I cannot speak to't . . . a reviewer at amazon.com has few words on that (http://www.amazon.com/review/product/B000P733I4/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?%5Fencoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1).
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on January 08, 2009, 11:21:14 AM
QuoteA Note from John Shand

I bought the 2006 Melodiya Kondrashin set. And now I've just come from comparing the opening of the 4th and 10th symphonies with their counterparts in the 1994 BMG-Melodiya set, and there's a definite improvement! The level is higher, the sound clear - the 1994 set sounds muffled in comparison - and the sound has far more weight and depth. In case I thought I was imagining it, I got my wife to listen, who hasn't followed any of this, and played her the disks blind - I have a very understanding wife! - and she agreed without a qualm that the sound on the 2006 set was noticeably better.

I've just played the opening of the 8th. That's much improved too in the Melodiya 2006 set over the BMG-Melodiya 1994 set. Where as before it was clear but painful, the sound now has more depth and body and isn't so unbearably shrill, without losing any of the excitement.

He whole improvement is really quite thrilling. The set has come up sounding fresh.

And, by the way, the first note on the double basses at the opening of the 10th is restored, which on the BMG-Melodiya set was chopped off, or at least started half way through - although no-one seems to have to commented on this before.

I found a page on Amazon where someone had compared the 2006 Melodiya set with the 1999 Aulos one, and he thought the 2006 Melodiya set a definite improvement over that too.

All one has to do is get used to the quaint packaging of the 2006 set. But there's no question about the improvement in sound. I wonder what they did? Whatever they did the Russians have come up trumps!

John Shand

That the 2006 set of the Shostakovich symphonies is remastered is discreetly documented on the back of each of the cardboard sleeves for the disks. (All except Symphony no.7 oddly enough - although it's clear it too has been remastered judging by the sound compared to the 1994 issue.) Who we have to thank is one of two Russian recording engineers in each case, either M.Pilpov or V. Obodzinskaya, who shared the job. They deserve a medal.

I should mention that there is no mention of Russian sound engineers M.Pilpov or V. Obodzinskaya, or indeed any other sound engineers, including the original ones (also listed on the 2006 set), on the 1994 set.

John Shand

[ Source (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2007/Feb07/Shostakovich_Kondrashin_MELCD1010165.htm) ]
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: ezodisy on January 08, 2009, 11:33:02 AM
Quote from: Herman on January 07, 2009, 09:55:31 AM
I'm aware mr M forever can't elucidate this himself, but anyone here who can explain what the problem would be with Aulos?

nothing at all, transfers sound excellent, you just don't get the Razin piece in the set. I don't think the Aulos set is from 1999. It came out around the time Molman was on this board, 2003 or 2004 I think.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Herman on January 08, 2009, 12:25:36 PM
QuoteAnd, by the way, the first note on the double basses at the opening of the 10th is restored, which on the BMG-Melodiya set was chopped off, or at least started half way through - although no-one seems to have to commented on this before.

yeah, that was 2003 or 2004 (when GMG was just a tad more lively than now).

I thought I'd check the opening of the tenth, and AFAICT the Aulos is complete.

I've had a couple of Aulos discs that I thought were perhaps intended for Eastern ears, a little shrill in the trebles. I do not hear this on the DSCH discs (which, admittedly, I do not listen to all the time). Perhaps this was one of M's problems?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Drasko on January 08, 2009, 01:40:37 PM
I'm sure you can ask him over at rmcr, to my best recollection he was objecting to amount of noise reduction applied, finding it too aggressive.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on January 08, 2009, 05:54:51 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 05, 2007, 08:09:08 AM
Alright, I've just finished the Kondrashin 1st. While the sound is less than spectacular, certainly a great deal more  impatient and energetic than either the Jansons or the Barshai. Perhaps, a little frantic for my taste at times . . . .

Agreed.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on January 10, 2009, 01:14:40 PM
Any views on Maxim Shostakovich's Supraphon cycle?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on January 10, 2009, 01:20:09 PM
I like it a great deal, Jeffrey, and find it overall an excellent set.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on January 10, 2009, 01:27:59 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 10, 2009, 01:20:09 PM
I like it a great deal, Jeffrey, and find it overall an excellent set.

Thank you Karl. I like his recording of Symphony No 4 very much and his LP of No 15 (EMI/Melodiya) was/is my favourite version - never released on CD as far as I know. I would like the Kondrashin box but the Supraphon was much cheaper, so I have settled with that.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 10, 2009, 01:28:34 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 10, 2009, 01:20:09 PM
I like it a great deal, Jeffrey, and find it overall an excellent set.

Karl - yes, a timely post!  :D  Just finished my first complete set of Shosty Symphonies, i.e. the Barshai recordings released by Brilliant, which I felt is just a superb offering - but now, I'd like another for comparison - from your OP opening this thread, the complete sets seemed to be about the same; so, would be interested in 'updated' comments from all on these previously discussed sets, and on any 'newer' offerings (not sure if any others have appeared in the interim) - thanks -  Dave  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on January 10, 2009, 03:02:31 PM
I've been doing a parallel survey-listen of the two boxes, Maksim Dmitriyevich (second run-through, as I had picked this one up some time ago) and Kirill Petrovich this week . . . still at it, so I am yet preparing comments.  At this point I have listened to the First through Tenth, and I think it fair to offer the 'preview' remark that, while I certainly enjoy and think very well of the Kondrashin set, I prefer the Shostakovich fils box.

— similarly, Jeffrey, the first symphony I had heard (a couple of years before Supraphon reissued as a box set) was the Fourth, which immediately became my best-regarded recording of that wonderful symphony.

(Dave, I haven't heard the entire Barshai set . . . I think I've heard the First through Sixth, and Thirteenth . . . maybe another or two.  Some aspects of the recording tech is better with Barshai than Kondrashin, but in general I found Kondrashin and his band musically preferable.)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: ezodisy on January 10, 2009, 03:07:39 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 10, 2009, 03:02:31 PM
Maksim Dmitriyevich Kirill Petrovich

you might as well write in cyrillic if you're going to speak formally

Quotewhile I certainly enjoy and think very well of the Kondrashin set, I prefer the Shostakovich fils box.

get outta town. How is this possible?

I haven't heard the, um, Maks(?)im Dmitriyevich set, but it doesn't have many if any fans over at rmcr, hence the question. Sanderling certainly has some fans over there though
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on January 10, 2009, 03:17:09 PM
Quote from: ezodisy on January 10, 2009, 03:07:39 PM
you might as well write in cyrillic if you're going to speak formally

The Roman letters are more generally legible in this forum.

Quote from: sidozeget outta town. How is this possible?

The music-making and the sound, chiefly.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: ezodisy on January 10, 2009, 03:19:07 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 10, 2009, 03:17:09 PM
The Roman letters are more generally legible in this forum.

yes but we shall not engage in half-measures, shall we?

Quote
The music-making and the sound, chiefly.

well the sound bit is a little unfair as they seem to have been recordered at different times and in different circumstances. The music-making is something else. I suppose the younger Shostakovich brings out all the horror and pain and humour of these symphonies quite well then?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on January 10, 2009, 03:26:50 PM
Quote from: ezodisy on January 10, 2009, 03:19:07 PM
well the sound bit is a little unfair as they seem to have been recordered at different times and in different circumstances.

I don't see where "unfair" enters into it.  You asked how it is possible to prefer one to the other;  this is as objective a measure as one could wish for in such a comparison.  It is one element, but it is an entirely legitimate one.

Quote from: sidozeThe music-making is something else. I suppose the younger Shostakovich brings out all the horror and pain and humour of these symphonies quite well then?

Not merely quite well, but very well, indeed. Is there some reason he should not?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: ezodisy on January 10, 2009, 03:32:42 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 10, 2009, 03:26:50 PM
I don't see where "unfair" enters into it.  You asked how it is possible to prefer one to the other;  this is as objective a measure as one could wish for in such a comparison.  It is one element, but it is an entirely legitimate one.

yes you do have a point. Though if you're going to use sound as part of a preference it might be better not to listen to any historical recordings, of course, otherwise you'll be for ever disappointed. Or at least nothing by early Melodiya. But that is your choice, naturally.

Quote
Not merely quite well, but very well, indeed. Is there some reason he should not?

no, no particular reason. But when you observe discussions on RMCR for years and years, you would expect to see his name mentioned a little more often, as it hardly was at all. After all he was the son of the composer, not exactly someone obscure.

Drasko did you ever hear the Maxim recording?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on January 10, 2009, 04:04:31 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 10, 2009, 03:02:31 PM
I've been doing a parallel survey-listen of the two boxes, Maksim Dmitriyevich (second run-through, as I had picked this one up some time ago) and Kirill Petrovich this week . . . still at it, so I am yet preparing comments.  At this point I have listened to the First through Tenth, and I think it fair to offer the 'preview' remark that, while I certainly enjoy and think very well of the Kondrashin set, I prefer the Shostakovich fils box.

— similarly, Jeffrey, the first symphony I had heard (a couple of years before Supraphon reissued as a box set) was the Fourth, which immediately became my best-regarded recording of that wonderful symphony.

(Dave, I haven't heard the entire Barshai set . . . I think I've heard the First through Sixth, and Thirteenth . . . maybe another or two.  Some aspects of the recording tech is better with Barshai than Kondrashin, but in general I found Kondrashin and his band musically preferable.)

Thanks Karl - that's very helpful and reassuring. I'll post my views when I've heard more of the Supraphon box.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on January 10, 2009, 04:52:20 PM
Glad to be of some service, Jeffrey.

The Eleventh is a wonderful heart-in-throat slowburn in the Supraphon set.  So much of the first movement is glacially still & hushed (this stuff gives me chills), I fear there must be some noise in the Melodiya (really a drag on the Largo from the Fifth, for instance) . . . but soft!  Mayhap the document will surprise on the upside  8)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Herman on January 10, 2009, 06:01:54 PM
I haven't listened to DSCH symphonies in a long time, but my memories of Mzim Shostokocich' recordings are not too good. Not very driven, not very musical either. Slow. I'm sure Maxim knows his father's music better than anyone, but I didn't get the feeling he can make an orchestra do whatever he wants. The funny thing is I'm reminded of Robert Craft's Stravinsky, another non-conductor (IMO) whom Karl admires while I don't.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on January 10, 2009, 06:22:05 PM
Quote from: Herman on January 10, 2009, 06:01:54 PM
I haven't listened to DSCH symphonies in a long time, but my memories of Mzim Shostokocich' recordings are not too good. Not very driven, not very musical either. Slow. I'm sure Maxim knows his father's music better than anyone, but I didn't get the feeling he can make an orchestra do whatever he wants.

That's not very illuminating considering the memories you're drawing on are from "a long time" ago.

QuoteThe funny thing is I'm reminded of Robert Craft's Stravinsky, another non-conductor (IMO) whom Karl admires while I don't.

This one-liner serves what purpose?


Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on January 10, 2009, 06:40:36 PM
Quote from: ezodisy on January 10, 2009, 03:32:42 PM
no, no particular reason. But when you observe discussions on RMCR for years and years, you would expect to see his name mentioned a little more often, as it hardly was at all.

When did RMCR become the barometer for all things great?

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Herman on January 10, 2009, 06:40:50 PM
Quote from: donwyn on January 10, 2009, 06:22:05 PM
That's not very illuminating considering the memories you're drawing on are from "a long time" ago.

This one-liner serves what purpose?

Thanks for your comments. Do you do this a lot?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on January 10, 2009, 06:42:05 PM
Quote from: Herman on January 10, 2009, 06:40:50 PM
Thanks for your comments. Do you do this a lot?

Do what?


Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on January 10, 2009, 06:48:18 PM
I've been contributing to this subject since at least one or two boards ago. This thread included.

As to right now, my queries to you are straight-up.

I question the reliability of criticism that isn't grounded in something more tangible than "old memories".

And the Craft one-liner needs clarification. How does THIS add to the Maxim Shostakovich discussion?

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on January 10, 2009, 08:49:56 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 10, 2009, 03:02:31 PM
I've been doing a parallel survey-listen of the two boxes, Maksim Dmitriyevich (second run-through, as I had picked this one up some time ago) and Kirill Petrovich this week . . . still at it, so I am yet preparing comments.  At this point I have listened to the First through Tenth, and I think it fair to offer the 'preview' remark that, while I certainly enjoy and think very well of the Kondrashin set, I prefer the Shostakovich fils box.

I hope to soon get back to finishing my Kondrashin box for the first time. I doubt I will keep up with your pace, but it would be nice to compare notes along the way.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Herman on January 11, 2009, 12:55:37 AM
Quote from: donwyn on January 10, 2009, 06:48:18 PM
I've been contributing to this subject since at least one or two boards ago. This thread included.

As to right now, my queries to you are straight-up.

I question the reliability of criticism that isn't grounded in something more tangible than "old memories".

And the Craft one-liner needs clarification. How does THIS add to the Maxim Shostakovich discussion?

I wouldn't be surprised if many comments and opinions on these boards are based on listening we did a couple years ago. If ever single opinion was based on last-minute in-depth listening noone would be able to post and hold a job at the same time. Actually I think some of this "I just heard this and it's fantastic" stuff is not very valuable either.

Apart from that I would 'question the reliability' of any kind of criticism anyway. People have different ears and expectations. There have only been a few times I purchased a record after reading a rave here and not wondering what the fuss was all about. However, as much as I question other posters' enthusiasms I happen to think it doesn't work very well to challenge people the way you do. I don't think that's the idea of GMG. The idea would probably be: "Maxim didn't do it for you? Too bad. To me he's fine, and I'll tell you why."

Re: Craft. I'm not entirely sure how Karl listens to these symphonies. Perhaps perusing the scores meanwhile? Obviously I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. it's just that I have a feeling listening to these IMO less than visionary conductors with the score in hand offers a kind of satsfacttion not available to listeners without a score. However this is just speculation.

This is all useless talk, though: if Karl likes Maxim S better than Kondrashin, I'm happy for him.

And if you find my contributions unilluminating, or not as illuminating as your own, just skip 'em. There's probably something in the GMG guidelines to that effect.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: The new erato on January 11, 2009, 01:45:16 AM
Quote from: ezodisy on January 10, 2009, 03:07:39 PM

I haven't heard the, um, Maks(?)im Dmitriyevich set, but it doesn't have many if any fans over at rmcr, hence the question. Sanderling certainly has some fans over there though
According to a recent Gramophone survey; Maxim's 15th is the best there is.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: ezodisy on January 11, 2009, 01:59:34 AM
Quote from: donwyn on January 10, 2009, 06:40:36 PM
When did RMCR become the barometer for all things great?



I may have overstressed it, true, it's just that they have far more experience than we do, so much it sometimes borders on the ridiculous (some of those guys have so many LPs in their houses that they can't even get out the door). Don't intend to mention it again however, once is enough.

Quote from: erato on January 11, 2009, 01:45:16 AM
According to a recent Gramophone survey; Maxim's 15th is the best there is.

well I don't mean to say that just because the whole set is rarely mentioned it must be a dud. Was just surprised by the comment. Like Herman I haven't listened to Shostakovich in ages (aside from the 4th and 15th it's been several years). Not on the horizon again either, so I'm outta here and will stfu now. Erato do you have Gramophone's recommendations for the 4th and 8th? Cheers. But of course there's no such thing as "the best" and for the sake of the survival of their magazine they should never use that word. Just another reason why forums are so much more enjoyable than professional magazines
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on January 11, 2009, 02:52:47 AM
Quote from: erato on January 11, 2009, 01:45:16 AM
According to a recent Gramophone survey; Maxim's 15th is the best there is.

Are you sure they are not referring the the (slightly mythical) Melodiya recording - and not the Supraphon one?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on January 11, 2009, 03:26:39 AM
Quote from: donwyn on May 17, 2007, 05:53:25 PM
How interesting!

Speaking of Bychkov, apparently he's embarking on a complete cycle for Avie. Can't confirm that but the signs seem to point to it. Should be interesting.

I have yet to sample his fourth on disc -- but in concert (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/01/when-heldenleben-orchestra-stops-at.html) it was little short of awesome. The DSCH recordings I have of him (although not yet sampled in depth) are well above average. More bombastic than Barshai's cutting, chilling (not to be mistaken for the Haitink-clean-yet-sumptuous way) recordings.

So much choice, these days, when you also consider Kitajenko... (and almost not to mention Caetani and the MDG cycle from Bonn - both of which have gotten rather mixed reviews.)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: The new erato on January 11, 2009, 03:27:42 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 11, 2009, 02:52:47 AM
Are you sure they are not referring the the (slightly mythical) Melodiya recording - and not the Supraphon one?
Yes. But I don't have time to retrieve the magazine (need to walk the dog), it's in a comparative review done sometime during 2008.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2009, 05:16:04 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 11, 2009, 03:26:39 AM
So much choice, these days, when you also consider Kitajenko...

I keep eyeing that box at JPC...only €29 for 12 SACDs! Reviews have been mixed. ClassicsToday praised it for the beauty of the lyrical episodes while damning it for playing down the barbaric and sarcastic elements. Your thoughts, Jens? (I couldn't find a review at IONARTS, just this mention of it while you were discussing Prokofiev cycles: "Kitajenko has put down a new cycle (Gürzenich Orchestra Cologne, Phoenix Edition) which, if it is as good as his Shostakovich cycle (Capriccio), will be a hot item.")

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on January 11, 2009, 05:26:38 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2009, 05:16:04 AM
I keep eyeing that box at JPC...only €29 for 12 SACDs! Reviews have been mixed. ClassicsToday praised it for the beauty of the lyrical episodes while damning it for playing down the barbaric and sarcastic elements. Your thoughts, Jens? (I couldn't find a review at IONARTS, just this mention of it while you were discussing Prokofiev cycles: "Kitajenko has put down a new cycle (Gürzenich Orchestra Cologne, Phoenix Edition) which, if it is as good as his Shostakovich cycle (Capriccio), will be a hot item.")
Sarge

Problem is that I don't have it at hand and have never done comparative listening. I remember the 5th being a total dud (who cares - we have loads of 5th on our shelves, no?) and the others to be uniformly excellent. I don't remember biting sarcasm, so ClassicsToday may be right on that, but obviously do remember being very happy with what I had. A flowing 8th that didn't drag, very musical 7th (more "Neuschnee" than "Schneematsch", though, if you know what I mean), for example. Would I recommend it? Absolutely. Can I speak to it with sufficient authority at this point? Not quite.
  (http://lh6.google.de/flussziege/R1VpOiDmVGI/AAAAAAAAFH0/HHB4yjw5ku8/s400/4705_Neuschnee_041207.JPG)
  (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3148/3063459599_f60c7d6c19.jpg?v=0)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2009, 05:57:39 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 11, 2009, 05:26:38 AM
Would I recommend it? Absolutely. Can I speak to it with sufficient authority at this point? Not quite.

Thank you. I will buy it even though I don't really need another Shostakovich box right now. I already own Jansons, Barshai and Rostropovich plus most of Rozhdestvensky and Haitink's cycles (the CDs purchased individually during the 90s). But that price is too good to pass up. I know if I wait, it will disappear. And besides, CD purchasing is never about need; it's about want  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on January 11, 2009, 06:18:57 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2009, 05:57:39 AM
And besides, CD purchasing is never about need; it's about want  ;D

Sarge

You ain't kiddin'  :)

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on January 11, 2009, 08:51:34 AM
Quote from: Herman on January 11, 2009, 12:55:37 AM
However, as much as I question other posters' enthusiasms I happen to think it doesn't work very well to challenge people the way you do. I don't think that's the idea of GMG.

It really all depends on the intent - or force - of the original message. When someone comes on so strong - as you did with your Maxim comments - it's perfectly natural to expect equally strong rebuttal. I certainly don't enjoy this. But it most definitely IS part of GMG.

QuoteAnd if you find my contributions unilluminating, or not as illuminating as your own, just skip 'em. There's probably something in the GMG guidelines to that effect.

I trust you'll remember this the next time a GMG "Listening Group" thread fires up. ;) 0:)


Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on January 11, 2009, 09:17:25 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 11, 2009, 03:26:39 AM
I have yet to sample his fourth on disc -- but in concert (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/01/when-heldenleben-orchestra-stops-at.html) it was little short of awesome. The DSCH recordings I have of him (although not yet sampled in depth) are well above average. More bombastic than Barshai's cutting, chilling (not to be mistaken for the Haitink-clean-yet-sumptuous way) recordings.

So much choice, these days, when you also consider Kitajenko... (and almost not to mention Caetani and the MDG cycle from Bonn - both of which have gotten rather mixed reviews.)

Yes, some of Bychkov's old BPO Shostakovich (on Philips) is worthwhile, too. Not often we get the chance (on disc) to hear this orchestra in Shsotakovich.


Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on January 11, 2009, 10:49:42 AM
Quote from: Herman on January 11, 2009, 12:55:37 AM
Re: Craft. I'm not entirely sure how Karl listens to these symphonies. Perhaps perusing the scores meanwhile?

Not never, but hardly ever.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on January 11, 2009, 10:51:16 AM
Quote from: George on January 10, 2009, 08:49:56 PM
I hope to soon get back to finishing my Kondrashin box for the first time. I doubt I will keep up with your pace, but it would be nice to compare notes along the way.

For me, as well, George.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on January 11, 2009, 10:53:41 AM
Quote from: karlhenning
Not never, but hardly ever.

To clarify:  Most of my score-reading is not while listening;  most of my listening is attentive not divided by following the score in real time.

I do find it a valuable exercise to follow a score while listening to a piece, but this is quite a small fraction of either activity.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Herman on January 11, 2009, 11:46:55 AM
So we just happen to like different types of conductors sometimes.

My guess is the conductors union is very happy with this.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2009, 12:02:12 PM
Quote from: Herman on January 11, 2009, 11:46:55 AM
So we just happen to like different types of conductors sometimes.

Which is normal; we ain't sheep but individuals. If Karl is the lone evangelist for Maxim, I might be Rostropovich's John the Baptist (no one else on this forum admits to owning his Shostakovich cycle anyway). The forum needs folks like Karl and me...way too many Kondrashinites around here  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on January 11, 2009, 12:11:38 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2009, 12:02:12 PM
Which is normal; we ain't sheep but individuals. If Karl is the lone evangelist for Maxim, I might be Rostropovich's John the Baptist (no one else on this forum admits to owning his Shostakovich cycle anyway).
I, for one, wouldn't be caught dead with it, in the darkest of nights.   ;D

(I do have his Violin Concertos [with Vengerov], though, which I consider must-have material.)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2009, 12:14:35 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 11, 2009, 12:11:38 PM
I, for one, wouldn't be caught dead with it, in the darkest of nights.   ;D

Exaclty what I said..all by my lonesome in the wilderness, crying the gospel of Rostropovich   ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Renfield on January 11, 2009, 12:15:23 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2009, 12:02:12 PM
Which is normal; we ain't sheep but individuals. If Karl is the lone evangelist for Maxim, I might be Rostropovich's John the Baptist (no one else on this forum admits to owning his Shostakovich cycle anyway). The forum needs folks like Karl and me...way too many Kondrashinites around here  ;D

Sarge

What does that make me!? I admire Shostakovich Jr's cycle and own the Rostropovitch. :o

Although truth be told, I've never listened to it - this due to it having been behind in Crete after I bought it while I was in the process of moving to Athens, ca. 2006. And the Kondrashin, Jansons, Shostakovich Jr., Haitink, and also-barely-listened-to Barshai have meant my hands were full enough for me to live without it. Should I pursue its recovery and dispatch to Scotland?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2009, 12:16:36 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 11, 2009, 12:11:38 PM
(I do have his Violin Concertos, though, which I consider must-have material.)

With Vengerov? Yes, great performances.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Christo on January 11, 2009, 12:22:04 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2009, 05:57:39 AM
And besides, CD purchasing is never about need; it's about want  ;D

That's a real eye-opener to most of us here!  8)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2009, 12:46:53 PM
Quote from: Renfield on January 11, 2009, 12:15:23 PM
What does that make me!? I admire Shostakovich Jr's cycle and own the Rostropovitch. :o

I have no idea!!!  :o :o :o  You are an unusual dude  ;)  I want Junior's box too (not only because of Karl's advocacy but because the reviews, even the negative reviews, make it sound intriguing). But the price has been a barrier.

Quote
Should I pursue its recovery and dispatch to Scotland?

I hate making recommendations because my taste in music is rather odd (as I've discovered in these forums). I love 1, 2 and 3 (he almost convinces me the Third is actually good music rather than the trash it really is...that's a remarkable achievement!). His Fourth isn't among my absolute favorites but definitely scores with me. His Fifth (along with Bernstein live in Tokyo) is my favorite Fifth. The Sixth is a major disappointment; his Seventh failed to convince (but then no one's Seventh has convinced me that this is anything more than wartime propoganda schlock. Bernstein/Chicago awaits in the wings, ready to prove me wrong). His Eighth is solid and moving. I can't recall the Ninth but the Tenth disappointed. His 11th, 12th and 14th are stunning. His 15th a dud. Sanderling/Cleveland's 15th sweeps all before it; no one else is in the running...not in my Shosty race anyway  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2009, 12:47:56 PM
Quote from: Christo on January 11, 2009, 12:22:04 PM
That's a real eye-opener to most of us here!  8)

I have a genius for stating the obvious  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Renfield on January 11, 2009, 02:30:27 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2009, 12:46:53 PM
I have no idea!!!  :o :o :o  You are an unusual dude  ;)  I want Junior's box too (not only because of Karl's advocacy but because the reviews, even the negative reviews, make it sound intriguing). But the price has been a barrier.

Really? I remember picking it up ridiculously cheaply in Athens, a couple of years ago - in the region of €20! And intriguing is certainly a word for it.


Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2009, 12:46:53 PM
I hate making recommendations because my taste in music is rather odd (as I've discovered in these forums). I love 1, 2 and 3 (he almost convinces me the Third is actually good music rather than the trash it really is...that's a remarkable achievement!). His Fourth isn't among my absolute favorites but definitely scores with me. His Fifth (along with Bernstein live in Tokyo) is my favorite Fifth. The Sixth is a major disappointment; his Seventh failed to convince (but then no one's Seventh has convinced me that this is anything more than wartime propoganda schlock. Bernstein/Chicago awaits in the wings, ready to prove me wrong). His Eighth is solid and moving. I can't recall the Ninth but the Tenth disappointed. His 11th, 12th and 14th are stunning. His 15th a dud. Sanderling/Cleveland's 15th sweeps all before it; no one else is in the running...not in my Shosty race anyway  ;D

So we have a very good 5th, a good 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 8th, 11th, 12th, 14th, a bad 6th, 7th, 10th, 15th, and the 9th and 13th are AWOL.


I do have Rostropovitch's later 11th, which I quite like. Maybe I should contact the parent unit and request dispatch...

(In fact, I had forgotten about that set, or I might have asked them to send it over earlier. It's almost strange I'd left it behind, to begin with.)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 11, 2009, 02:31:45 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2009, 05:57:39 AM
Thank you. I will buy it even though I don't really need another Shostakovich box right now. I already own Jansons, Barshai and Rostropovich plus most of Rozhdestvensky and Haitink's cycles (the CDs purchased individually during the 90s). But that price is too good to pass up. I know if I wait, it will disappear. And besides, CD purchasing is never about need; it's about want  ;D

Sarge - will be lookin' forward to your comments on the set contemplated - just have Barshai as a complete set so far (plus a bunch of other players in many other performances) - would like a second comparison 'complete' set - thanks for any input provided in the future!  Dave  :D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Renfield on January 11, 2009, 02:35:20 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on January 11, 2009, 02:31:45 PM
Sarge - will be lookin' forward to your comments on the set contemplated - just have Barshai as a complete set so far (plus a bunch of other players in many other performances) - would like a second comparison 'complete' set - thanks for any input provided in the future!  Dave  :D

Dave, suffice to say you can confidently purchase any one among Kondrashin's, Shostakovich Jr's or Jansons' cycles with the weight of the recommendations of at least a group of GMG posters (likely different for each). ;)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2009, 02:45:06 PM
Quote from: Renfield on January 11, 2009, 02:30:27 PM
Really? I remember picking it up ridiculously cheaply in Athens, a couple of years ago - in the region of €20! And intriguing is certainly a word for it.

Alas, I've never visited Greece (I rarely travel south, preferring more northerly climes). It remains expensive elsewhere...well, not really expensive but double or triple the price of Barshai or Kitajenko. Expensive enough to make me hesitate anyway.


QuoteSo we have a very good 5th, a good 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 8th, 11th, 12th, 14th, a bad 6th, 7th, 10th, 15th, and the 9th and 13th are AWOL.

If you are to believe me...which I urge you not to do  ;)

His 13th I love but I see it has mixed reviews. The 9th, yes, is AWOL (thank you for the military metaphor  8) )  I should listen to that tomorrow.


QuoteI do have Rostropovitch's later 11th, which I quite like.

Yes, a smashing (literally) recording. I should compare it to the earlier.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 11, 2009, 02:53:20 PM
Quote from: Renfield on January 11, 2009, 02:35:20 PM
Dave, suffice to say you can confidently purchase any one among Kondrashin's, Shostakovich Jr's or Jansons' cycles with the weight of the recommendations of at least a group of GMG posters (likely different for each). ;)

Yep, LOL!  ;D  Took me probably a year on this thread to pick up the Barshai, and the other three mentioned above have been 'pounding' in my mind as an additional option, then the Kitajenko performances on Capriccio suddenly appeared in the 'mix' - guess I can wait a little longer?  ;)  :)  Dave
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2009, 03:07:50 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on January 11, 2009, 02:53:20 PM
Yep, LOL!  ;D  Took me probably a year on this thread to pick up the Barshai, and the other three mentioned above have been 'pounding' in my mind as an additional option, then the Kitajenko performances on Capriccio suddenly appeared in the 'mix' - guess I can wait a little longer?  ;)  :)  Dave

Let me add Rozhdestvensky to the mix (just to make your life more complicated  ;D )  If there were a box set available, he would be my first choice (despite the less than ideal sonics). So my advice is: wait for it  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on January 11, 2009, 03:25:17 PM
Thanks guys for the views on Maxim Shostakovich's Supraphon box. I think that I opened up Pandora's box when I asked the question  ;D

I have the box but have only heard No 4, which I though excellent. The old EMI/Melodiya No 15 was better than any I have heard since (especially the troubled/touching ending). I don't think that there is a mythology about this performance - it is simply a great one and cries out for a CD release.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on January 11, 2009, 03:37:34 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on January 11, 2009, 02:53:20 PM

Quote from: Renfield on January 11, 2009, 02:35:20 PM
Dave, suffice to say you can confidently purchase any one among Kondrashin's, Shostakovich Jr's or Jansons' cycles with the weight of the recommendations of at least a group of GMG posters (likely different for each). ;)

Yep, LOL!  ;D  Took me probably a year on this thread to pick up the Barshai, and the other three mentioned above have been 'pounding' in my mind as an additional option, then the Kitajenko performances on Capriccio suddenly appeared in the 'mix' - guess I can wait a little longer?  ;)  :)  Dave

I haven't quite heard all of the Jansons set, but everything I have heard is very good (in particular the Tenth, Fifteenth & Eighth . . . in fact, his is about my favorite Tenth, but then, of course, I am eccentric in not thinking all that highly of the HvK . . . .)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on January 11, 2009, 03:43:51 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2009, 03:07:50 PM
Let me add Rozhdestvensky to the mix (just to make your life more complicated  ;D )  If there were a box set available, he would be my first choice (despite the less than ideal sonics). So my advice is: wait for it  ;)

Sarge

Better hope they have two copies, Dave, cause I'm gettin' the first one!!  $:)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on January 11, 2009, 03:45:30 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 11, 2009, 03:25:17 PM
Thanks guys for the views on Maxim Shostakovich's Supraphon box. I think that I opened up Pandora's box when I asked the question  ;D

No worries, this is GMG, where pandora's box lies around every corner.  ;D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on January 11, 2009, 03:46:10 PM
Sarge & Renfield, I am waxing curious about the Slava set.  The only one I've heard (and maybe this isn't even a part of the set under advisement) was the Fourth, decades ago, and . . . I only remember incomprehension, frankly.  So I owe him a fresh listen.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on January 11, 2009, 03:46:44 PM
Quote from: George on January 11, 2009, 03:45:30 PM
No worries, this is GMG, where pandora's box lies around every corner.  ;D

If you never open a Pandora's box here, Jack, you dead!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Renfield on January 11, 2009, 03:53:15 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 11, 2009, 03:46:10 PM
Sarge & Renfield, I am waxing curious about the Slava set.  The only one I've heard (and maybe this isn't even a part of the set under advisement) was the Fourth, decades ago, and . . . I only remember incomprehension, frankly.  So I owe him a fresh listen.

The LSO Live 11th I've heard is certainly excellent.

I wouldn't rank it higher than the crystal-clear Bychkov, or Mravinsky - also Kondrashin, maybe - but it's an individual, atmospheric, emotive, genuinely heartfelt performance backed by wonderful orchestral playing. "Big-band Shostakovich", if you will.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 11, 2009, 03:57:28 PM
Quote from: George on January 11, 2009, 03:43:51 PM
Better hope they have two copies, Dave, cause I'm gettin' the first one!!  $:)

George - LOL yet again!  ;D  I can 'hold off' a while, after just digesting my first listening of the Barshai box set - superb!  I'll await some more comments on the Kitajenko performances on Capriccio, then will see what prices are offered!  (hey, didn't you & I go through this conundrum w/ the Beethoven-Annie Fischer recordings -  ;)) - have a great evening, buddy - Dave  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on January 11, 2009, 04:15:15 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on January 11, 2009, 03:57:28 PM
George - LOL yet again!  ;D  I can 'hold off' a while, after just digesting my first listening of the Barshai box set - superb!  I'll await some more comments on the Kitajenko performances on Capriccio, then will see what prices are offered!  (hey, didn't you & I go through this conundrum w/ the Beethoven-Annie Fischer recordings -  ;)) - have a great evening, buddy - Dave  :)

Yes, we did. One day you will all find out that I am secretly the assistant VP of promotion over at Hungaroton. :D

You have a great night too!  :)

This is way more fun than the Golden Globes!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2009, 04:25:35 PM
Quote from: Renfield on January 11, 2009, 03:53:15 PM
The LSO Live 11th I've heard is certainly excellent.

I wouldn't rank it higher than the crystal-clear Bychkov, or Mravinsky - also Kondrashin, maybe - but it's an individual, atmospheric, emotive, genuinely heartfelt performance backed by wonderful orchestral playing. "Big-band Shostakovich", if you will.


Agree...and I will compare it to the performance in the box (with the National SO) tomorrow (oh, my...it is tomorrow already in my neck of the woods  ;D )

Rostropovich's Fifth is a great performance too but it is overtly political. Karl, if you think music can't be political...well, just listen to those closing pages! We know that Shostakovich composed the Fifth in responce to politically motivated criticism (the Fourth disappeared for many years as a result). The finale is, on the surface, one of unalloyed Soviet triumph. But some think Shostakovich deliberately wrote a subversive subtext into the score for those with the ears to hear. Rostropovich makes it obvious: the closing pages are not triumphant but hectoring, and damning. It's the polar opposite interpretation of, for example, Bernstein's (whose performance Shostakovich praised). Take your pick between the two interpretive extremes: come away smiling, or intensely disturbed.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on January 11, 2009, 04:27:37 PM
Which Rostropovich 5 are you referring to, Sarge? The live one or the studio one from the set?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2009, 04:30:16 PM
Quote from: George on January 11, 2009, 04:27:37 PM
Which Rostropovich 5 are you referring to, Sarge? The live one or the studio one from the set?

Studio, with the National SO. I haven't heard the live one.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on January 11, 2009, 04:32:18 PM
When you get a chance, can you post the timings, Sarge?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2009, 05:20:51 PM
Quote from: George on January 11, 2009, 04:32:18 PM
When you get a chance, can you post the timings, Sarge?

Sure, George. Shostakovich 5, Rostropovich conducting the National Symphony Orchestra:

I    14:54
II   5:27
III  12:49
IV   12:04


Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on January 11, 2009, 05:58:32 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2009, 05:20:51 PM
Sure, George. Shostakovich 5, Rostropovich conducting the National Symphony Orchestra:

     Studio  Live LSO 2004
I    14:54    15:39
II     5:27     5:47
III  12:49   12:39
IV   12:04  12:52


Sarge

I added the live ones next to yours. Very similar. Thanks!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on January 12, 2009, 02:50:18 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2009, 03:07:50 PM
Let me add Rozhdestvensky to the mix (just to make your life more complicated  ;D )  If there were a box set available, he would be my first choice (despite the less than ideal sonics). So my advice is: wait for it  ;)

Seeing that Melodiya is back in business, I am certainly hoping for a re-issue on that front! Would be most exciting, if nothing else.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2009, 04:25:35 PM

Rostropovich's Fifth is a great performance too but it is overtly political. Karl, if you think music can't be political...well, just listen to those closing pages! We know that Shostakovich composed the Fifth in responce to politically motivated criticism (the Fourth disappeared for many years as a result). The finale is, on the surface, one of unalloyed Soviet triumph. But some think Shostakovich deliberately wrote a subversive subtext into the score for those with the ears to hear. Rostropovich makes it obvious: the closing pages are not triumphant but hectoring, and damning. It's the polar opposite interpretation of, for example, Bernstein's (whose performance Shostakovich praised). Take your pick between the two interpretive extremes: come away smiling, or intensely disturbed.

To simplify: Slava was a hack who pretended to be best buddies with DSCH and milked the Volkov-interpretation because it made him money and gave him fame. The Saintification of DSCH by profiteers like Rostropovich really gets my goad. I don't understand it when someone like Ashkenazy does it, but him I am willing to believe and listen to and respect immensely, even if I'm not sure whether to take his opinion over others, that are at least equally, probably more, informed... because Ashkenazy never did any posturing as a DSCH-apostle and never tried to ride the DSCH-the-anti-communist-hero-money-train. He simply feels strongly about the issue, having experienced the regime first hand. But then listen to Jansons talk about DSCH, and your ears will fall off. Or talk to any Russian willing to give you the honest perception of DSCH from the 70s 'til the fall of the SU. Just on account of his actions, stripped of the myth of a secret resistance fighter hiding in every slow movement, he makes Richard Strauss (re: collaboration with totalitarianism) look like a saint. Sure, Strauss only had to endure 12 years of it, DSCH almost his entire life. But still.

I'm not saying that DSCH was the opposite of what his apologists claim he was. In fact, I think his music (the finale of the 4th and 15th Symphony, most of the string quartets) occasionally speaks a language that's hard to interpret other than critical of the SU & Stalin. But I do wish to caution against the likes of Volkov and Slava (and Maxim, although he holds back considerably, these days) and an all-too-simplistic idea of whenever DSCH composed the most propagandistic works, that he was really only being ironic and all clever about it.

Well... those are my two intemperate two cents.  >:D

Quote from: Renfield on January 11, 2009, 03:53:15 PM
The LSO Live 11th I've heard is certainly excellent.

My problem with the recording (and it may well just be that particular recording -- the hybrid-SACD version) is that I don't hear it. It's recorded at such a low level, I literally don't hear anything unless I crank it up some 400% (!!!) higher than I have to with any other discs. If I were to keep it at that level, the climaxes would be too loud...  but not by much. Which speaks to the recording's wide dynamic range (laudable in principle), but moreso to a freakishly low level. Hard to believe as it may be, it must/may be a flaw only with that particular disc... since I've not heard anyone else complain about something that should be very obvious.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: ezodisy on January 12, 2009, 03:10:48 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 12, 2009, 02:50:18 AM
My problem with the recording (and it may well just be that particular recording -- the hybrid-SACD version) is that I don't hear it. It's recorded at such a low level, I literally don't hear anything unless I crank it up some 400% (!!!) higher than I have to with any other discs. If I were to keep it at that level, the climaxes would be too loud...  but not by much. Which speaks to the recording's wide dynamic range (laudable in principle), but moreso to a freakishly low level. Hard to believe as it may be, it must/may be a flaw only with that particular disc... since I've not heard anyone else complain about something that should be very obvious.

I think it's an LSO thing because I had it with the Davis Berlioz Damnation of Faust recording, very low levels which made listening a right nuisance.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on January 12, 2009, 03:56:00 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 12, 2009, 02:50:18 AM
. . . In fact, I think his music (the finale of the 4th and 15th Symphony, most of the string quartets) occasionally speaks a language that's hard to interpret other than critical of the SU & Stalin.

When you get specific like this, I think you get out of your text to some degree, Jens.  The chill at the end of the Fourth, after the over-effulgent brass, certainly it's a response to the Terror.  But "critical of the SU & Stalin" is imagining that the music has an explicative capacity which it don't.  Leave the music be itself;  it's time we stopped having people treat it as a Rorschach carrying their own wilful meanings.

As itself, the music is marvelous.  I know, I know:  for many people that is somehow not enough.

PS./ I'm sure you were deliberately exaggerative of Slava, but a chap like you running down an actual artist who, critiques of his conducting aside, is the individual largely responsible for such gems in the literature as the Cello Concerti Opp. 107 & 126, and the Blok romances for soprano & piano trio Opus 127, is a little unseemly.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on January 12, 2009, 04:09:03 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 12, 2009, 03:56:00 AM
When you get specific like this, I think you get out of your text to some degree, Jens.  The chill at the end of the Fourth, after the over-effulgent brass, certainly it's a response to the Terror.  But "critical of the SU & Stalin" is imagining that the music has an explicative capacity which it don't. 

d'accord! would criticize the statement myself, had it not been me to make it.  ;)

Quote from: karlhenning on January 12, 2009, 03:56:00 AM
PS./ I'm sure you were deliberately exaggerative of Slava,

Correct.

Quote from: karlhenningbut a chap like you running down an actual artist who, critiques of his conducting aside, is the individual largely responsible for such gems in the literature as the Cello Concerti Opp. 107 & 126, and the Blok romances for soprano & piano trio Opus 127, is a little unseemly.

Ah, the old trap of who has a "right" to criticize. Good thing we don't live in a world where only "actual artists" have a right to run their mouth about other "actual artists" -- and only "actual doctors" have the right criticize other "actual doctors" -- and only "actual politicians" have the right to criticize other "actual politicians". No, actual doctors are better off removing tumors, politicians are better off  f-ing up the economic sphere with hyperactive interventionism, and artists are better off practicing, instead. For the critiques, there's a specialized sub-cast -- the carrion ants of the arts- (or political) world: Critics. By which I include everyone, not just professionals. And surely the level of compositions dedicated to Rostropovich does not immunize him to criticism of character (or anything else), does it?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on January 12, 2009, 05:10:29 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2009, 04:25:35 PM
Rostropovich's Fifth is a great performance too but it is overtly political. Karl, if you think music can't be political...well, just listen to those closing pages! We know that Shostakovich composed the Fifth in responce to politically motivated criticism (the Fourth disappeared for many years as a result). The finale is, on the surface, one of unalloyed Soviet triumph. But some think Shostakovich deliberately wrote a subversive subtext into the score for those with the ears to hear. Rostropovich makes it obvious: the closing pages are not triumphant but hectoring, and damning. It's the polar opposite interpretation of, for example, Bernstein's (whose performance Shostakovich praised). Take your pick between the two interpretive extremes: come away smiling, or intensely disturbed.

Sarge, we probably share a high estimation of Slava as an artist, although even in my limited experience, I've found him mixed as a conductor (though, as mentioned, I'd be curious to revisit a certain recording of the Opus 43).  Mixed or not, on Billy Wilder's principle of You're as good as the best thing you've done, perhaps the only recording I have which is conducted by Slava is the landmark Ledi Makbet;  and that performance is not the work of any "hack."

Much of the great music in the world sustains a range of interpretation, and though the composer certainly created the score, I don't know if it is quite right to take it as meaning that everything within that range was the composer's specific intent – and I think we can fall into error if we focus on one corner of that range as necessarily his intent.

I wasn't there in 1937, so there are lots of questions unanswered for me, and I have no great problem with the fact that not all my questions will be answered.  Slava may believe that the finale of the Opus 47 is a political statement; it is certainly possible to conduct it in such a way.  And such a performance (as within the range of plausible interpretation) can be convincing, and there can be accompanying text to explicate the theory of the finale as a political statement.  But for myself, I stop shy of endorsing all that as "meaning" that that "must have been" Shostakovich's intent.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Herman on January 12, 2009, 05:25:45 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 12, 2009, 02:50:18 AM
To simplify: Slava was a hack who pretended to be best buddies with DSCH and milked the Volkov-interpretation because it made him money and gave him fame. The Saintification of DSCH by profiteers like Rostropovich really gets my goad.

Personally I don't really need all the political baggage some people are dumping on DSCH's music. That being said your simplification is reprehensible.

Why don't you just say I disagree with R.?

Who on earth are you to call Rostropovich a hack and a profiteer? Please get a little perspective. In comparison you're just a little ant on the internet. You should be grateful to R. for getting your goat; otherwise you would have to get mad at the gas prices or something.

QuoteCritics. By which I include everyone, not just professionals.

That's just emptying yet another word of its meaning. Everybody has an opinion, usually ill-informed. A critic is expected to be better informed, and have better sense than you just did. No big deal; I really don't see why everybody and his dog wants to call himself a critic. It's a mostly thankless job.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on January 12, 2009, 05:27:39 AM
Oh! And FWIW . . . the finale of the Fifth Symphony (just that one movement) is the first Shostakovich I ever heard, and in what many might find curious circumstances.

It was one of the big numbers (in transcription, necessarily) for our regional (or all-state, I forget just which at this point) symphonic band one year.  I didn't play it;  we were always divided into a 'best of' Wind Ensemble, and the larger Symphonic Band, and I was playing in the W.E. that time.  So the concert at which they played the program was the first I knew of it . . . I missed any background &c. which the Symph. Band conductor may have offered my fellow pupils in rehearsal.

So . . . I found it an exciting (and inspiring) piece of music, even without any background (real or imputed) to the piece.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on January 12, 2009, 06:08:05 AM
Quote from: Herman on January 12, 2009, 05:25:45 AM
Why don't you just say I disagree with R.?
next time.

Quote from: Herman on January 12, 2009, 05:25:45 AM
Who on earth are you to call Rostropovich a hack and a profiteer? Please get a little perspective. In comparison you're just a little ant on the internet.
Perspective and being an ant (or not a professional critic) has nothing to do with it. I didn't demand you take my opinion to heart or seriously, nor my simplifications as gospel. Similarly I don't expect you to ask of me that I don't have one or that I don't pronounce it. Certainly in a forum like this, even the least 'credible' opinion has its right to exist and need not wrestle for its justification.

Quote from: Herman on January 12, 2009, 05:25:45 AM
QuoteCritics. By which I include everyone, not just professionals.
That's just emptying yet another word of its meaning. Everybody has an opinion, usually ill-informed. A critic is expected to be better informed, and have better sense than you just did. No big deal; I really don't see why everybody and his dog wants to call himself a critic. It's a mostly thankless job.

"Critic" served a definition of an action, not a class of professionals in this case, which is why I clarified. The act of criticizing (whether modestly or over the top) is not the prerogative of professional critics. (Being actually listened to, might be.) If it were, only Critics could criticize other critics, I suppose. Surely we wouldn't much like that?!


Quote from: Herman on January 12, 2009, 05:25:45 AM
You should be grateful to R. for getting your goat;...

Goad (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/goad), not Goat (http://www.atelierkreativ.de/paintings/Ziege%2065x50.jpg). A difference I must insist upon.

Quote from: Herman on January 12, 2009, 05:25:45 AM
otherwise you would have to get mad at the gas prices or something.

That's PRECISELY  (http://www.atlantic-community.org/index/Open_Think_Tank_Article/Biofuel_for_Thought)what  (http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2008/12/31/energy-carbon-climate-oped-cx_jfl_gap_1231laursonpieler.html)I (http://www.ia-forum.org/Content/ViewInternalDocument.cfm?ContentID=5421) do (http://www.ipi.org/ipi/IPIPressReleases.nsf/0/c65f4158b27ce40f8525714c004f8981?OpenDocument) when I'm not bitching about Slava.

My last word on Rostropovich (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=116) - warts & glory - for now.




Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: ezodisy on January 12, 2009, 07:31:58 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 12, 2009, 06:08:05 AM
I (http://www.ia-forum.org/Content/ViewInternalDocument.cfm?ContentID=5421)

"Surely it's time to realize that 21st century foreign policy demands linkage between internal politics and external relations as never before."

I don't know about that. It sounds a little too close to more of the same policing/exporting-US-values that is already rather repugnant. But perhaps you didn't mean that. I remember someone here during the conflict with Georgia was going on and on about how Russia was trying to seize control of all the pipelines (well the person in question was only aware of 1 of them actually) and that was quite easily debunked, which of course isn't the same as saying that they wouldn't like to, just that they couldn't. Anyway I think "piracy" is a bit too much. They often have a point in what they're doing even if it's not apparent or particularly sensible. That article however doesn't have much of a point, other than just saying some rather negative things, unless I'm missing something in it.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on January 12, 2009, 08:06:08 AM
Quote from: ezodisy on January 12, 2009, 07:31:58 AM
"Surely it's time to realize that 21st century foreign policy demands linkage between internal politics and external relations as never before."

I don't know about that. It sounds a little too close to more of the same policing/exporting-US-values that is already rather repugnant. But perhaps you didn't mean that. I remember someone here during the conflict with Georgia was going on and on about how Russia was trying to seize control of all the pipelines (well the person in question was only aware of 1 of them actually) and that was quite easily debunked, which of course isn't the same as saying that they wouldn't like to, just that they couldn't. Anyway I think "piracy" is a bit too much. They often have a point in what they're doing even if it's not apparent or particularly sensible. That article however doesn't have much of a point, other than just saying some rather negative things, unless I'm missing something in it.

This is going to get very off-topic... if we were to continue this, we should probably have it moved to a separate thread. But very briefly: I don't find the values of freedom and democracy repugnant -- and those are the ones I mean. Of course the US is a highly flawed country, but there cannot be a moral equivalence between a country like the US and a country like Russia or Zimbabwe. It is, and in that sense I'll stick to the point I was trying to make, not only within the right but a duty of countries that enjoy freedom to point out where such freedoms are not granted.  Also: the article is from 2006, so the Georgia problem had not been on the horizon. I deal with that elsewhere (http://www.forbes.com/2008/08/25/russia-ossetia-gergiev-oped-cx_jfl_gap_0826georgiaart.html).

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 12, 2009, 08:34:14 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 12, 2009, 02:50:18 AM
Well... those are my two intemperate two cents.  >:D

More than two cents, I'd figure  ;D  I didn't live in Soviet Union, I never met any of these folks. Any comment I could make on their motives and motivation would be pure conjecture. My point was, though, that the Fifth can be interpreted and performed as a subversive political statement, and that's what Rostropovich did (at a time, 1983, when it was still relevant). Whether Shostakovich meant it to be subversive, I (we) have no way of knowing for sure. Doesn't really matter now though. They're all dead (Slava, Dmitri, Uncle Joe...and the Soviet empire).

Quote from: jlaurson on January 12, 2009, 02:50:18 AM
My problem with the recording....It's recorded at such a low level, I literally don't hear anything unless I crank it up some 400% (!!!) higher than I have to with any other discs. If I were to keep it at that level, the climaxes would be too loud...

Hence my earlier comment:

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2009, 02:45:06 PM
Yes, a smashing (literally) recording.

I have the CD (not the SACD) and yes, the recording has a huge dynamic range which just verges on the point of being too wide. I live in my own house with neighbors at a considerable distance, so this isn't a problem...although my ears occasionally complain.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: ezodisy on January 12, 2009, 08:37:04 AM
okay I won't drag it out, especially not now the word 'moral' has come up, which must be the most appalling and manipulated word in the English (or American) language. I like the values of freedom and democracy too, which is why I stay in Europe, sort of  8)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 12, 2009, 09:32:32 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 12, 2009, 03:56:00 AM
PS./ I'm sure you were deliberately exaggerative of Slava, but a chap like you running down an actual artist who, critiques of his conducting aside, is the individual largely responsible for such gems in the literature as the Cello Concerti Opp. 107 & 126, and the Blok romances for soprano & piano trio Opus 127, is a little unseemly.

I dislike the running-down of Slava in the mentioned post not so much because he was responsible for gems in the literature, as because it misreads him in a moral sense. Slava was an immensely privileged guy who was willing to take on the authorities, and in the course of that, lose all the privileges he had acquired in the USSR. How many of us would be able to do such a thing?

Quote from: ezodisy on January 12, 2009, 07:31:58 AM
"Surely it's time to realize that 21st century foreign policy demands linkage between internal politics and external relations as never before."

I don't know about that. It sounds a little too close to more of the same policing/exporting-US-values that is already rather repugnant.

Agreed. I like how that noted foreign policy expert Ezra Pound expressed it:  "The principle of good is enunciated by Confucius; it consists in establishing order within oneself. This order or harmony spreads by a sort of contagion without specific effort. The principle of evil consists in messing into other peoples' affairs."
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on January 12, 2009, 09:34:42 AM
Quote from: Spitvalve on January 12, 2009, 09:32:32 AM
I dislike the running-down of Slava in the mentioned post not so much because he was responsible for gems in the literature, as because it misreads him in a moral sense. Slava was an immensely privileged guy who was willing to take on the authorities, and in the course of that, lose all the privileges he had acquired in the USSR. How many of us would be able to do such a thing?

An excellent point, too.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on January 12, 2009, 10:10:43 AM
Quote from: Spitvalve on January 12, 2009, 09:32:32 AM
Agreed. I like how that noted foreign policy expert Ezra Pound expressed it:  "The principle of good is enunciated by Confucius; it consists in establishing order within oneself. This order or harmony spreads by a sort of contagion without specific effort. The principle of evil consists in messing into other peoples' affairs."
That's easy to say, until you are faced with -- extreme 1940's example alarm -- the Holocaust happening in some other country, i.e. Germany.. Or, less extreme, take South Africa / Zimbabwe. Ezra Pound won't be appreciated by the many suffering or even dying Zimbabweans who continue to languish because SA closes its eyes before the oppression in its neighbor country. Surely SA hasn't got its own act together in many ways, but are you saying that one moral principle -- that of "not messing in other people's affairs" overrides the principle of involvement to prevent evil? Does it mean that it is the moral option to close one's eye's before abuses abroad, only because we are flawed ourselves? Surely Germany (or whatever other country you live in) has problems of its own... but just as surely it has an obligation to speak up about abuses as it sees them. Everything else would be cowardice or extreme relativism... possibly both. I'm all for "leading by example"... for "convincing, not coercing". But that's not to excuse neutrality in times of crisis. (Dante reminds us that there's a special place in Hell reserved for those...)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 12, 2009, 10:32:37 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 12, 2009, 10:10:43 AM
are you saying that one moral principle -- that of "not messing in other people's affairs" overrides the principle of involvement to prevent evil? Does it mean that it is the moral option to close one's eye's before abuses abroad, only because we are flawed ourselves?

No, I mean it is unrealistic, dangerous, and frequently unprincipled to believe we can interfere in the affairs of other countries and set things right there. (Sure worked out great for us in Iraq, eh?)

Anyway, where American foreign policy is concerned, I agree with John Quincy Adams' prophetic statement of 1821: "Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will [America's] heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own... She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom. The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force...."

Words for US policy-makers to live by!  0:)

QuoteSurely Germany (or whatever other country you live in) has problems of its own...

Sure it does - I'm an American, but I live in Russia, a country which you earlier placed on the same level as Zimbabwe (thanks for a good laugh). From my perspective, I can inform that the moral lecturing and hectoring that Anglo-Euro-American elites like to direct at the rest of the world does not go down well, being seen as a form of hypocrisy, and is thus counterproductive.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on January 12, 2009, 11:38:32 AM
Quote from: Spitvalve on January 12, 2009, 10:32:37 AM
No, I mean it is unrealistic, dangerous, and frequently unprincipled to believe we can interfere in the affairs of other countries and set things right there. (Sure worked out great for us in Iraq, eh?)

Anyway, where American foreign policy is concerned, I agree with John Quincy Adams' statement of 1821...

Every moral principle can be abused {example Iraq}. But that doesn't make it invalid. Just like the moral principle of non-involvement could be abused. Moderation, I suppose, is key. In any case, speaking out (or placing sanctions on a country [although I think sanctions, as we conventionally understand them, are useless at best, and counterproductive more likely]) isn't the same as marching troops some other nation's capital.  0:)

JQA is genius and should be recited trice before every US foreign policy adventure. But that, too, doesn't mean that one should not speak out etc.etc.

Quotebut I live in Russia, a country which you earlier placed on the same level as Zimbabwe (thanks for a good laugh). From my perspective, I can inform that the moral lecturing and hectoring that Anglo-Euro-American elites like to direct at the rest of the world does not go down well, being seen as a form of hypocrisy, and is thus counterproductive.

Russia should be held to higher standards than an outright dictatorship like Zimbabwe. Indeed, higher standards than a post-fascistic country China. (I mean "fascistic" in the political definition, not the usual "You're a Nazi" kind-of use. Fascism is basically an government that combines an absolute state with a directed "free" market.) That Western posturing doesn't bring the "Oh my God, we've been wrong all along" effect in Russia, well... that's expected.

Does this sound better? I hope so.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Herman on January 12, 2009, 11:47:17 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 12, 2009, 08:06:08 AM
there cannot be a moral equivalence between a country like the US and a country like Russia or Zimbabwe.

Howlers like these are so relevant to DSCH.

Why not relegate these this kind of talkradio bluster to the diner (or even beter to the privacy of your own thoughts)?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Bu on January 12, 2009, 12:23:38 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 12, 2009, 02:50:18 AM
My problem with the recording (and it may well just be that particular recording -- the hybrid-SACD version) is that I don't hear it. It's recorded at such a low level, I literally don't hear anything unless I crank it up some 400% (!!!) higher than I have to with any other discs. If I were to keep it at that level, the climaxes would be too loud...  but not by much. Which speaks to the recording's wide dynamic range (laudable in principle), but moreso to a freakishly low level. Hard to believe as it may be, it must/may be a flaw only with that particular disc... since I've not heard anyone else complain about something that should be very obvious.

When I first bought that disc my first thought was that it was defective or something. But then the orchestra kicked in later and I realized Slava intended it to start that way.  By that point I had turned up the sound (was wearing a walkman) and was given quite a jolt.   ::)

I should add that I have his Eighth also with the LSO and its always been a favorite of mine, with the second & third movements particular standouts.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Renfield on January 12, 2009, 01:51:45 PM
I believe Shostakovich's sense of humour would have been appeased many times over, by the above digression and its contents.

And for what it's worth, using ad hominem arguments to support aesthetic claims is, to my sensibilities, a faux pas.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: The new erato on January 12, 2009, 02:10:47 PM
Quote from: Renfield on January 12, 2009, 01:51:45 PM

And for what it's worth, using ad hominem arguments to support aesthetic claims is, to my sensibilities, a faux pas.
Holy c..p, three languages in one sentence! Is this some kind of board record?  ;D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Renfield on January 12, 2009, 02:34:39 PM
Quote from: erato on January 12, 2009, 02:10:47 PM
Holy c..p, three languages in one sentence! Is this some kind of board record?  ;D

I actually made note of that that when I pressed "Post", wondering if it wasn't a bit excessive. :P
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on January 12, 2009, 03:53:05 PM
You have the Threadmaster's thumb's-up  8)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: The new erato on January 12, 2009, 10:38:10 PM
Quote from: Renfield on January 12, 2009, 02:34:39 PM
I actually made note of that that when I pressed "Post", wondering if it wasn't a bit excessive. :P
Pas de tout!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on January 14, 2009, 02:48:52 AM
My favourite versions of Shostakovich symphs. (Not 'the greatest' - but my favourites!)

No 1 Ormandy (Sony)

No 2/3?

No 4 Kondrashin (Melodiya) Maxim (Supraphon)

No 5 Mravinsky (1937 - terrific!)

No 6 Stokowski (RCA)

No 7 Rozhdestvensky

No 8 Slatkin (RCA St Louis SO)

NO 9 Boult (Everest)

No 10 Previn (EMI)

No 11 Kondrashin (Melodiya)/ Lazarev Royal Scottish NO (Linn)

No 12 No special favourite yet

No 13 Previn (EMI)

No 14 Barshai (EMI/Melodiya)

No 15 Maxim S (ASD LP)

I'm sure you'll all agree hahaha  ;D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 14, 2009, 03:15:43 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 14, 2009, 02:48:52 AM
No 5 Mravinsky (1937 - terrific!)

Hey there. Are you telling us that the premiere performance of the symphony is available on a recording?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on January 14, 2009, 03:35:35 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 14, 2009, 02:48:52 AM

picking that up, leaving out those where I can't really make up my mind, have no strong opinion, don't care, or haven't heard enough, seriously...

No 1 Ancerl, maybe? (Supraphon) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00079RNLI/nectarandambr-20)

No 2 Jansons, if anyone can salvage that (EMI) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/04/jansons-latest-in-shostakovich.html)

No 4 Jansons (EMI) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/04/mariss-jansonss-dsch-4.html)

No 5 Previn (RCA) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000DBDN0/nectarandambr-20)

No 6 Skrowaczewski (Halle) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001IRFVP8/nectarandambr-20)... but I don't feel strongly about the work...

No 7 Bernstein (DG) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0013816GU/nectarandambr-20) (I know... sue me.)

No 8 Barshai (Brilliant) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000067F6C/nectarandambr-20) or maybe Gergiev (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/01/shostakovichs-eighth-symphony.html)? or Jansons (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/07/shostakovich-8th-with-rostropovich-on.html)? Maybe I just don't like this symphony as much, either. :-)

No 9 Kosler (Chant du Monde) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004YL72/nectarandambr-20)

No 10 Karajan (DG II) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GKB/nectarandambr-20)

No 11 Bychkov II (Avie) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0009VAEGK/nectarandambr-20), alt. Pletnev (Pentatone) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000E0VO4C/nectarandambr-20)

No 12 Jansons (EMI) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/04/jansons-latest-in-shostakovich.html)

No 13 Masur (Teldec) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000SJ6/nectarandambr-20)

No 15 Kondrashin Dresden (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/01/dip-your-ears-no-88.html) (Haenssler PROFIL)


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51KN6F4A1TL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61D51W5JPML._SL160_AA115_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/6132V6V1NCL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61E797MAVNL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51St-o8MPsL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PMTSR849L._SL160_AA115_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Hhh9kXayL._SL160_AA115_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AYKQ4GA2L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/410W5RVNWJL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41R3N77Z3XL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61D51W5JPML._SL160_AA115_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21Q27Q4997L._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5105NvRkw-L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on January 14, 2009, 04:22:52 AM
Quote from: Spitvalve on January 14, 2009, 03:15:43 AM
Hey there. Are you telling us that the premiere performance of the symphony is available on a recording?

It's the premiere recording and is difficult to find. Here it is but at a ridiculous price. I also have it on a set of Mravisky recordings in a series of either 4 or 6 CDs (I'm at work not home) in a long shaped folder; part of a set of issues featuring different conductors.

I had become rather bored through over-familiarity with this symphony - but this recording, old as it is, was a revelation and oddly links Symphony No 5 to the sound world of Symphony No 4.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Yevgeni-Mravinsky-Vol-2/dp/B00006YXAA/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1231939076&sr=1-15
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: not edward on January 14, 2009, 12:17:57 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 14, 2009, 03:35:35 AM
No 9 Kosler (Chant du Monde) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004YL72/nectarandambr-20)
Good to see some love for this recording. It's the one I learnt the work from and has always remained my favourite... it digs deeper below the surface than any other I've heard.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on January 14, 2009, 12:20:07 PM
Quote from: edward on January 14, 2009, 12:17:57 PM
Good to see some love for this recording. It's the one I learnt the work from and has always remained my favourite... it digs deeper below the surface than any other I've heard.

Hear, hear.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Tyson on January 14, 2009, 06:14:55 PM
I've got the Haitink, the Kondrashin, the Rozhdevensky, Kitajenko, Barshai, and Jansons cycles (complete or mostly complete).  Each has it's own character, but I find that I return to the Kondrashin (on Aulos) most frequently as my favorite "Fun House and Razor Blades" interpretation.  Of the rest, Barshai has grown in stature over time and really become my "European style" reference set.  Great sound and solid interpretations.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: ezodisy on January 14, 2009, 11:21:45 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 14, 2009, 02:48:52 AM
No 4 Kondrashin (Melodiya) Maxim (Supraphon)

Quote from: jlaurson on January 14, 2009, 03:35:35 AM
No 4 Jansons (EMI) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/04/mariss-jansonss-dsch-4.html)

have you chaps heard Rozhdestvensky's 4th (studio, haven't heard the live ones)? It's a cracker, one to partner Kondrashin though quite different
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on January 14, 2009, 11:31:40 PM
Quote from: ezodisy on January 14, 2009, 11:21:45 PM
have you chaps heard Rozhdestvensky's 4th (studio, haven't heard the live ones)? It's a cracker, one to partner Kondrashin though quite different

Do you mean the one on Olympia with the Jazz Suite? If so I have it and it is really good. I will listen to it again.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: ezodisy on January 14, 2009, 11:57:27 PM
I think it must be the same one as the one I had on Melodiya/BMG because AFAIK he made only 1 studio recording of it, some time in the '80s I think. IMO it's a great recording, I recall it was Molman's overall favourite.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on January 15, 2009, 07:50:29 AM
Quote from: ezodisy on January 14, 2009, 11:21:45 PM
have you chaps heard Rozhdestvensky's 4th (studio, haven't heard the live ones)? It's a cracker, one to partner Kondrashin though quite different

I have a live Rozhdestvensky 4th with the Bolshoi (1981) on Russian Disc. It's actually much more driven (a la Kondrashin) than his studio efforts. But overall I still prefer either Barshai or Jansons in the 4th.

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on January 16, 2009, 11:38:48 AM
A couple of days ago I revisited the Previn/CSO recording of the Fourth.  This is great music, even when not 'pushed';  and the band sound great.  It's a recording which sounds no whit less 'powerful' to me than others;  and at less frantic speed, it has terrific 'weight'.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on January 20, 2009, 03:47:31 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 16, 2009, 11:38:48 AM
A couple of days ago I revisited the Previn/CSO recording of the Fourth.  This is great music, even when not 'pushed';  and the band sound great.  It's a recording which sounds no whit less 'powerful' to me than others;  and at less frantic speed, it has terrific 'weight'.

This is one of my favourites too Karl for the same reasons. I also like Previn's EMI version of Symphony No 10, with the slower than usual second movement.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Renfield on March 13, 2009, 06:29:12 PM
So I've found myself wondering, now that JPC has an offer on it, whether Kitajenko's (Capriccio) cycle should be on my shelf for comparison with Kondrashin, Jansons, Shostakovich (Jr), Barshai, Haitink and the incomplete Mravinsky.

Note "comparison" - I'm not looking for a "new favourite cycle"! Just an informative, consistent and high-standard supplement that is not simply "what I've heard, only less special". Is that the case with Kitajenko? Opinions? :)


(As an example of what I mean, you might remember - or just scroll up to - my opinions on Rostropovich, in whose cycle I am still interested.)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on March 13, 2009, 11:05:56 PM
Quote from: Renfield on March 13, 2009, 06:29:12 PM
So I've found myself wondering, now that JPC has an offer on it, whether Kitajenko's (Capriccio) cycle should be on my shelf for comparison with Kondrashin, Jansons, Shostakovich (Jr), Barshai, Haitink and the incomplete Mravinsky.

I suspect the price is not much higher than it used to be? Then definitely, even though you are already very nicely set with DSCH cycles and another one would--strictly speaking--be unnecessary. (Not that's ever kept me, you, or most forum-members from acquiring a CD.) I think we are keeping the world economy alive, just on account of our continued classical music spending.  ;D

Quote(As an example of what I mean, you might remember - or just scroll up to - my opinions on Rostropovich, in whose cycle I am still interested.)

Incorrigible, you.   ;)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Renfield on March 13, 2009, 11:37:14 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 13, 2009, 11:05:56 PM
I suspect the price is not much higher than it used to be?

It goes for ca. 30 Euro on JPC, at the moment. And I'm between getting that and a few other things, or getting the Haydn Brilliant box, right now, going for ca. 80 Euro, from the same source. Hence my quandary. What's Kitajenko's interpretative selling-point?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on March 15, 2009, 02:59:08 AM
Looks like an interesting new release:

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on March 15, 2009, 03:30:04 AM
Quote from: erato on January 12, 2009, 02:10:47 PM
Holy c..p, three languages in one sentence! Is this some kind of board record?  ;D

Oh contraire, my friend--it simply follows, mas o menos, the current Zeitgeist. Vero?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on March 15, 2009, 04:42:31 AM
Quote from: erato on January 12, 2009, 02:10:47 PM
Holy c..p, three languages in one sentence! Is this some kind of board record?  ;D

If it is, I bet our Karl held the prior one.  ;D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on March 15, 2009, 04:53:58 AM
Mayhap, mayhap.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: The new erato on March 15, 2009, 05:20:56 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 15, 2009, 03:30:04 AM
Oh contraire, my friend--it simply follows, mas o menos, the current Zeitgeist. Vero?
C'est vrai.  Capische.  Versteht's.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on March 23, 2009, 04:43:11 AM
I have been enjoying the new Naxos Liverpool version of Shostakovich's 11th Symphony (mentioned above), conducted by Vasily Petrenko - a terrific recording and excellent performance - unlike any other in some ways, it has great Mussorgsky like depth and power and the quieter sections are very effective. It comes with a cardboard sleeve featuring a photo of the (rather smug looking) young conductor, but once you remove this the CD itself features a fine photo of Shostakovich in his Moscow flat (appartment to you Americans  ;D) in 1957.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Renfield on March 23, 2009, 04:51:01 AM
I have that too, Jeffrey. But the first time I gave it a go, I got distracted by something; maybe I'll actually spin it later today. :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on March 23, 2009, 05:01:23 AM
Quote from: Renfield on March 23, 2009, 04:51:01 AM
I have that too, Jeffrey. But the first time I gave it a go, I got distracted by something; maybe I'll actually spin it later today. :)

I just listened to it again. The last few minutes from the mournful cor anglais melody to the cataclysmic ending really are quite something in this recording - had me on the edge of my seat. Will be interested to hear what you make of it.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on June 27, 2009, 01:34:33 PM
Can we talk for a bit about Mravinsky's many recordings of the 5th symphony? I am in the market for one, maybe two.

I understand that there are something like 8 recordings of this work
by the conductor. I am only aware of seven:

1. Doremi - 1937
2. Melodiya - studio recording 1954
3. Russian Disc - live  Nov. 1965
4. Russian Disc - live 1966
5. Praga or Chant du Mode - labeled incorrectly as 1967 (http://www.dschjournal.com/reviews/misattrib.htm#note1) - is actually the same performance as #6 below:
6. EMI - recorded live in Vienna with the Leningrad June 12, 1978
7. Erato - with Leningrad 1984

I haven't heard any of them and would love to hear form those who have.  :)

Also, which one is in the recent Brilliant Classics box?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on June 27, 2009, 06:19:12 PM
Quote from: George on June 27, 2009, 01:34:33 PM

4. Russian Disc - live 1966
5. Praga or Chant du Mode - labeled incorrectly as 1967 (http://www.dschjournal.com/reviews/misattrib.htm#note1) - is actually the same performance as #6 below:
7. Erato - with Leningrad 1984

I haven't heard any of them and would love to hear form those who have.  :)

I've got those three.
#4 I just don't remember much about, apparently never established an opinion about it... and it's not around to do that now.
#5 I can't tell you if the 'original' offers better --or just as bad-- sound quality, but I quite like the rabid performance to which the significant distortion and extraneous noise quite fits. Well, in my book, it does. In any case, the Chant du Monde disc should be picked up in any case, simply because the 9th with Kosler on it is so exceptional.
#7 Is a nicely driven interpretation... but I'll have to give it another spin (maybe in the next few days) to really say something about it that could be helpful to you.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on June 27, 2009, 06:30:05 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 27, 2009, 06:19:12 PM
I've got those three.
#4 I just don't remember much about, apparently never established an opinion about it... and it's not around to do that now.
#5 I can't tell you if the 'original' offers better --or just as bad-- sound quality, but I quite like the rabid performance to which the significant distortion and extraneous noise quite fits. Well, in my book, it does. In any case, the Chant du Monde disc should be picked up in any case, simply because the 9th with Kosler on it is so exceptional.
#6 Is a nicely driven recording... but I'll have to give it another spin (maybe in the next few days) to really say something about it that could be helpful to you.

Thanks Jens! Did you mean #6 or #7?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 11, 2009, 10:20:36 PM
Can somebody please opine on these Skrowaczewski performances of DSCH 5 & 10? Random googling uncovers positive reviews, but on the other hand the MusicWeb guy was very lukewarm:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/419UrbvdrBL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Brian on October 12, 2009, 06:37:08 AM
Contents Under Pressure, I very much enjoy the Skrowaczewski 10th, which I picked up in a previous issue on Carlton Classics (I think) - very "concert hall" acoustic, and great playing all-around. Even if I prefer Karajan and Barshai in the finale, the opening clarinet solo is beautiful, the first movement is very well handled, and the second is a real rip-roaring performance, at about 4:10. I only paid $3 for it, but I would gladly have paid more.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Brian on October 12, 2009, 06:42:31 AM
New release:

(http://www.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/8.572167.jpg)

Listening notes copied from the listening thread:

The Fifth is really interesting (in a very good way). The first movement is very slow - 18 minutes - and in a way it really works, especially from about minute 5 to the end of the big climax, although the final coda was not as magical as I usually feel like it is: an uneasy moment of repose, looking back on the carnage of the movement so far and wondering how worried to be. The second movement was a little too fast for my taste - very Russian but not very sarcastic.

On the other hand, the symphony's "second half" was just fantastic - the finale is totally devastating, with an almost unbelievable climax and some fantastically emphatic percussion playing, and the rush of strings at the climax of the slow movement, just before the xylophone's entrance, was AMAZING. Fantastic playing from Liverpool. Vasily Petrenko is going to be a star, and it's fantastic that, with artists like this, Naxos can do more than just add music to its catalog - it can offer bold new artistic statements too.

As for the Ninth, it's a terrific performance with the best finale I've ever heard. Love the violin solo in the first movement recap - and, although the slow movement is so slow it really starts to wear me out on its way to the 9 (!) minute mark, the payoff is worth it when the chipper little dance begins afterwards. As for the finale: That is by far THE coolest performance of the end of Shostakovich No. 9 that I've ever heard! Granted, I've only heard a few (Bernstein, Barshai, Fricsay, Kreizberg), but the way that Petrenko plays with the tempo - the way the brass belt out the silly main theme with ever-increasing silliness - the way the whole orchestra sounds like kids stealing candy from a candy shop - holy Toledo!!

~~~~~~~

In sum, buy this for the experience.  8)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 12, 2009, 07:26:30 AM
Quote from: Brian on October 12, 2009, 06:42:31 AM
New release:
(http://www.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/8.572167.jpg)
Listening notes copied from the listening thread:

You sold me. I just ordered it.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Coopmv on October 12, 2009, 07:29:15 AM
I need to get more of Shosty's works, which currently number not much more than a half-dozen recordings.  A composer who had the courage to stand up to Uncle Joe has won tremendous respect from me ...
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on October 12, 2009, 07:52:06 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 12, 2009, 07:26:30 AM
You sold me. I just ordered it.

Sarge

I bet you only needed to read this far:

Quote from: Brian on October 12, 2009, 06:42:31 AM
The Fifth is really interesting (in a very good way). The first movement is very slow....

;D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Brian on October 12, 2009, 07:54:14 AM
Hope you like it as much as I did, Sarge! I'll put it on again this afternoon to make sure.  8)

Quote from: Coopmv on October 12, 2009, 07:29:15 AM
I need to get more of Shosty's works, which currently number not much more than a half-dozen recordings.  A composer who had the courage to stand up to Uncle Joe has won tremendous respect from me ...

Hmmm - where to start? I'd advise you to pick up the two piano concertos, a box set of the string quartets (the Borodins' 6 CDs can be had for $30 in the US), and the Symphonies 5-10. MDT currently has two complete symphony sets under $40 (Barshai $38, Jansons $32), so you have no excuse!  :D  I haven't heard the 24 Preludes and Fugues, but word on the street is they are just plain fantastic. You might need Karajan's Shosty 10 if you don't have it already.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Brian on October 12, 2009, 07:56:01 AM
Quote from: George on October 12, 2009, 07:52:06 AM
I bet you only needed to read this far:

;D


;D ;D
If that's the case, Sarge will love it. Petrenko definitely likes juxtaposing really fast material with really slow material; thus 5.i, parts of 5.iii, the second half of 5.iv, and especially 9.ii are really slow, while the other parts of 5.iii, the first half of 5.iv, 5.ii and 9.iii are really fast. Contrast, contrast, contrast!  :D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 12, 2009, 07:56:19 AM
Quote from: Brian on October 12, 2009, 06:37:08 AM
Contents Under Pressure, I very much enjoy the Skrowaczewski 10th,

Thanks for the feedback, I just remembered that I heard this one years ago on the radio and was impressed by it. Skrow is a prince among underrated conductors  0:)

Quote from: Coopmv on October 12, 2009, 07:29:15 AM
A composer who had the courage to stand up to Uncle Joe has won tremendous respect from me ...

I fear opening this can of worms, but it's open to debate whether (or to what extent) he actually "stood up to Uncle Joe." A better reason to listen to the music is because it's good.  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Brian on October 12, 2009, 09:34:58 AM
Somebody alert Karl...

(Petrenko and the RLPO have also recorded Rachmaninov's Symphonic Dances, Isle of the Dead, Paganini Rhapsody and Rachmaninov Third Concerto, though he won't say who the pianist was...)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on October 12, 2009, 09:40:42 AM
Thanks for the alert, Brian!

Program last night was:

Stravinsky, Scherzo fantastique, Opus 3
Rakhmaninov, Isle of the Dead, Opus 29
Shostakovich, Symphony № 10 in E minor, Opus 93


Terrific! More anon . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: bhodges on October 12, 2009, 10:02:47 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 12, 2009, 09:40:42 AM
Thanks for the alert, Brian!

Program last night was:

Stravinsky, Scherzo fantastique, Opus 3
Rakhmaninov, Isle of the Dead, Opus 29
Shostakovich, Symphony № 10 in E minor, Opus 93


Terrific! More anon . . . .

Great program!

--Bruce
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Holden on November 04, 2010, 12:35:16 AM
I've been thinking about a DSCH cycle for a while now. Is this the one to get or are there other options?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on November 04, 2010, 04:43:08 AM
Quote from: Holden on November 04, 2010, 12:35:16 AM
I've been thinking about a DSCH cycle for a while now. Is this the one to get or are there other options?

It's certainly one of them, certainly one of the top choices... all around satisfying. recommended.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: George on November 04, 2010, 04:47:29 AM
Quote from: Holden on November 04, 2010, 12:35:16 AM
I've been thinking about a DSCH cycle for a while now. Is this the one to get or are there other options?

I like the Kondrashin on Melodiya, the one with the eyeglasses on the cover.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on November 16, 2010, 07:49:28 AM
I'm still waiting for the Petrenko/Liverpool recording of the Tenth!  But meanwhile I have been listening to their account of the Fifth, Eighth & Ninth.

I find them all good — very good, even — quite sufficient to justify enthusiasm for the cycle-in-progress at Naxos.  I haven't taken any of them as so outstanding as to displace current favorites — but that were hardly necessary in order to share fully in the enthusiasm for the project.  Nor in order to envy the audiences in Liverpool!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Brian on November 16, 2010, 07:58:13 AM
I'm going to see Petrenko conduct the Eleventh live next week with the London Philharmonic.  8) If it's anything like his CD Eleventh, it will be a hair-raising experience!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Luke on November 17, 2010, 07:46:28 AM
Quote from: George on November 04, 2010, 04:47:29 AM
I like the Kondrashin on Melodiya, the one with the eyeglasses on the cover.

Thanks - that reminded me I wanted a copy, so I nipped to Amazon where it was £57... or £1.24 'new and used'  :o  :o  :o I'll let you guess what I did.....
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: karlhenning on November 17, 2010, 07:48:25 AM
Quote from: Luke on November 17, 2010, 07:46:28 AM
Thanks - that reminded me I wanted a copy, so I nipped to Amazon where it was £57... or £1.24 'new and used'  :o  :o  :o I'll let you guess what I did.....

Really? £1.24? Sweet!

Separately . . . YHM (I tried PM but yer box is full)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Mirror Image on December 11, 2010, 07:16:01 PM
Quote from: Brian on November 16, 2010, 07:58:13 AM
I'm going to see Petrenko conduct the Eleventh live next week with the London Philharmonic.  8) If it's anything like his CD Eleventh, it will be a hair-raising experience!


I'm so jealous. How was the concert, Brian?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Mirror Image on December 23, 2010, 09:56:39 AM
I do enjoy Haitink and Jansons as well, but my Jansons has a defective disc (the one with Leningrad), which I found out later most, if not, all of the sets that were issued have this problem. Barshai is really good and Ashkenazy has some great moments in his cycle. I have not heard Kondrashin's set (don't own it --- too expensive), Kitajenko's, Maxim Shostakovich's. I like Rostropovich's cycle on Warner Classics (originally on Telarc). There are many great single recordings of the symphonies as well, which I won't launch into. Sanderling's partial cycle is outstanding.


There's definitely many great recordings of Shostakovich's music available. I just bought the Pentatone series with the Russian National Orchestra with various conductors. I look forward to hearing these.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Mirror Image on March 02, 2012, 09:00:20 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 23, 2010, 09:56:39 AM
I do enjoy Haitink and Jansons as well, but my Jansons has a defective disc (the one with Leningrad), which I found out later most, if not, all of the sets that were issued have this problem. Barshai is really good and Ashkenazy has some great moments in his cycle. I have not heard Kondrashin's set (don't own it --- too expensive), Kitajenko's, Maxim Shostakovich's. I like Rostropovich's cycle on Warner Classics (originally on Telarc). There are many great single recordings of the symphonies as well, which I won't launch into. Sanderling's partial cycle is outstanding.


There's definitely many great recordings of Shostakovich's music available. I just bought the Pentatone series with the Russian National Orchestra with various conductors. I look forward to hearing these.

My, oh my, how outdated this post is now! I have nine Shostakovich cycles now and many partial ones. I haven't heard the Kondrashin in full yet, but my goodness what smoking hot performances! As mentioned these are rawer performances, but I think they capture the Shostakovich spirit quite well. One of the disappointing performances of the Kondrashin set is the 5th. The Largo is taken WAY TOO FAST! All of the emotion is just sucked out of it when it's taken with this kind of tempi. I prefer some weight and heaviness in this movement which Bernstein 1979, M. Shostakovich, Skrowaczewski, and Caetani deliver in spades.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Scion7 on March 03, 2012, 12:11:13 AM
I have the 1st, 5th and 10th on vinyl, these on CD, and the rest as various downloads from eMusic, etc.:

(http://s8.postimage.org/j6pna787p/Shostakovich_Symphs_CD.jpg)

There aren't any weak Shostakovich symphonies, but some stand out to me - the 5th, the 7th, the 8th and the 10th - as the best. 
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: eyeresist on March 04, 2012, 04:36:54 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 02, 2012, 09:00:20 AMOne of the disappointing performances of the Kondrashin set is the 5th. The Largo is taken WAY TOO FAST! All of the emotion is just sucked out of it when it's taken with this kind of tempi.

I agree that this performance is a bit of a let-down. Same with Mravinsky in his Venezia box. If you are now interested in Russian performances with bad sound :D let me recommend Svetlanov:

[ASIN]B001DETD9G[/ASIN]
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Mirror Image on March 04, 2012, 05:55:03 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on March 04, 2012, 04:36:54 PM
I agree that this performance is a bit of a let-down. Same with Mravinsky in his Venezia box. If you are now interested in Russian performances with bad sound :D let me recommend Svetlanov:

[ASIN]B001DETD9G[/ASIN]

I already own, and heard, the Svetlanov. It's a pretty good performance but pales in comparison to Bernstein's 1979 performance with the NY Philharmonic. This is my new benchmark recording for the 5th.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Rhymenoceros on July 17, 2012, 09:40:51 PM
What are some of the top recordings of Shostakovich's 4th, 5th, 8th, 10th and 11th symphonies?  What do people think of the following:

[asin]B000000AHT[/asin]
[asin]B0006OR0EO[/asin]
[asin]B00000E451[/asin]
[asin]B000001GKB[/asin]
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: CaughtintheGaze on July 17, 2012, 09:44:24 PM
The best 11th was done by Rozhdestvensky.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: CaughtintheGaze on July 17, 2012, 09:48:06 PM
Here's a taste:
http://www.youtube.com/v/LVKBXD5TKlc
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: david johnson on July 18, 2012, 12:01:54 AM
4 - ormandy/philly
5 - mitropoulos/ny
7 - bernstein/cso
10 - that hvk listed is enjoyable for me
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 18, 2012, 02:49:54 AM

You've got a solid 8 there with Solti, a decent No. 5, and the best No. 10 available with Karajan. Im not very keen on Jarvi's cycle on Chandos, a lot of muscle with little heart. Bernstein has recorded two very good No. 5 with NYP, the only No. 4 I own is Rattle which I enjoy.

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 18, 2012, 04:28:05 AM
That Järvi account of the Fourth is one of those rarities, a genuine, flat-out poor recording of a Shostakovich symphony.  It was recorded in much too reverberant a space, and much of the symphony gets lost in the muffle.  Far better are Maksim Dmitriyevich and a plucky Prague Symphony, Rattle and the CBSO, Previn and the CSO (though not a perfect account), and the Haitink on the CSO's Resound series, to name four off the top of my head.

I'm a contrarian viz. the HvK account of the Tenth: half the musical world at least is agog over it, and I hear no such matter.  My chief table-pounder for the exquisite Op.93 is Jansons and the Phila Orchestra.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 18, 2012, 04:44:21 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 18, 2012, 04:28:05 AM
That Järvi account of the Fourth is one of those rarities, a genuine, flat-out poor recording of a Shostakovich symphony.  It was recorded in much too reverberant a space, and much of the symphony gets lost in the muffle.  Far better are Maksim Dmitriyevich and a plucky Prague Symphony, Rattle and the CBSO, Previn and the CSO (though not a perfect account), and the Haitink on the CSO's Resound series, to name four off the top of my head.

I'm a contrarian viz. the HvK account of the Tenth: half the musical world at least is agog over it, and I hear no such matter.  My chief table-pounder for the exquisite Op.93 is Jansons and the Phila Orchestra.

I can't argue with the Jansons 10th, it's a good one. In fact, I am a fan of his cycle.

And Karl nailed it with the reverb on Jarvi's account, seems to be a consistent trend with much of Jarvi's Chandos recordings.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Beale on July 18, 2012, 05:25:15 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 18, 2012, 04:44:21 AM
And Karl nailed it with the reverb on Jarvi's account, seems to be a consistent trend with much of Jarvi's Chandos recordings.

I have Jarvi's seventh and I don't recall any problems with reverb. The tempi is a little fast but he managed to record it on one disc, whereas Bernstein took two discs.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51F9EBQWERL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 18, 2012, 05:29:09 AM
Quote from: Beale on July 18, 2012, 05:25:15 AM
I have Jarvi's seventh and I don't recall any problems with reverb. The tempi is a little fast but he managed to record it on one disc, whereas Bernstein took two discs.

Well, that was unusual (even unique) on Bernstein's part:  he took an atypically broad approach to the Leningrad with the CSO (and, to his credit, he makes it work).  As a rule, though, the Leningrad practically always fits on a single disc.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 18, 2012, 05:31:24 AM
The reverb, too, was a property of the space where they recorded the Fourth (a pity, for the SNO are a fine band). Perhaps Järvi did not record the entire cycle in the same venue. (Did he record all fifteen, come to think on it?)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 18, 2012, 05:36:24 AM
Another notably good Leningrad (and more "mainstream" in approach than Lenny/CSO) is Ančerl/Cz PhilHaitink's account of the Leningrad I like very well, too.  The first recording of the piece which 'sold' me on the piece, though, is Temirkanov/St Petersburg Phil.

The Ančerl recording of the Tenth is also well worth seeking out.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 18, 2012, 05:37:21 AM
Oh! Just noted that the discursion viz. the Leningrad is "off-topic," viz. the OP. Sorry!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 18, 2012, 05:40:34 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 18, 2012, 05:31:24 AM
The reverb, too, was a property of the space where they recorded the Fourth (a pity, for the SNO are a fine band). Perhaps Järvi did not record the entire cycle in the same venue. (Did he record all fifteen, come to think on it?)

15 was with Gothenberg on DG.
And the reverb issue is I referred to wasn't only with his DSCH cycle, I havent heard them all, but with his Prokofiev and Strauss sets, I feel a lot gets lost in these performances. It still contains excellent playing, but doesn't feel as detailed.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: not edward on July 18, 2012, 05:47:55 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 18, 2012, 05:29:09 AM
Well, that was unusual (even unique) on Bernstein's part:  he took an atypically broad approach to the Leningrad with the CSO (and, to his credit, he makes it work).  As a rule, though, the Leningrad practically always fits on a single disc.
I think that the preferred venue for Jarvi's RSNO Shostakovich cycle was the Caird Hall in Dundee (the hall I grew up going to concerts in, as it happens). However, the 4th was recorded in the distinctly inferior acoustic space of Glasgow City Halls.

My own preference in 4ths (though I have not heard as many as I would like) would be Rozhdestvensky. However, it is--like Lenny's 7th--most definitely not a mainstream interpretation and I would not recommend it as an only recording. Other recordings I'd throw into the mix here would be Mravinsky and Haitink in the 8th and Ancerl in the 10th.

In some ways Haitink might count as my favourite DSCH conductor; he plays the works in a manner that's largely "straight" on the surface, yet his understanding and command of both the large-scale structure and of the short-term phrasing is remarkable and constantly insightful.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 18, 2012, 06:07:21 AM
Quote from: Rhymenoceros on July 17, 2012, 09:40:51 PM
What are some of the top recordings of Shostakovich's 4th, 5th, 8th, 10th and 11th symphonies?

The Fifth: Lenny conducting the NY Phil live in Tokyo. It's been my favorite Fifth for more than 20 years: both First (Moderato) and Largo movements broadly paced, very intense, coupled with a swift, un-ironic Finale that's pure triumph.

[asin]B0000026PO[/asin]

And I second Edward's Rozhdestvensky/USSR recommendation for the Fourth. May be hard to find, though, at a decent price.


Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Fafner on July 18, 2012, 06:20:30 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 18, 2012, 04:28:05 AMI'm a contrarian viz. the HvK account of the Tenth: half the musical world at least is agog over it, and I hear no such matter.  My chief table-pounder for the exquisite Op.93 is Jansons and the Phila Orchestra.

Apparently, on this matter, you part company with the composer as well.  According to Thomas Brandis, concertmaster of the Berlin Philharmonic,  "When we played Shostakovich's Tenth Symphony in Moscow it reduced the composer to tears. He told Karajan that he had never heard his music played with such insight in all his life."   ;D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 18, 2012, 06:29:58 AM
Quote from: Fafner on July 18, 2012, 06:20:30 AM
Apparently, on this matter, you part company with the composer as well.  According to Thomas Brandis, concertmaster of the Berlin Philharmonic,  "When we played Shostakovich's Tenth Symphony in Moscow it reduced the composer to tears. He told Karajan that he had never heard his music played with such insight in all his life."   ;D

Only apparently, as you are careful to say.  For (a) none of us has heard a recording of that Moscow performance, (b) it is not known how the composer might have reacted to the recording which we have available to us, and (c) the composer's gracious (and no doubt genuinely grateful) remarks are characteristic, but to take them as a kind of Gospel is (at the least) a disservice.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: bhodges on July 18, 2012, 06:53:01 AM
Hello Rhymenoceros,

My choices echo many of those already mentioned.

For the 4th, I love Haitink's relatively recent recording with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. The only others I recall are Haitink's earlier one with the LPO and Gergiev/Kirov - both are excellent, but the combination of the knockout playing of the CSO and Haitink's patience are hard to resist.

In the Fifth, there are many good choices, but I do like Bernstein/NYPO, available on an excellent DVD (with the Schumann 1st) called Bernstein in Japan.

That Solti Eighth is quite good; if you enjoy the conductor you'll probably like it. Haitink (again) is excellent; his recording with the Concertgebouw is terrific.

For No. 10, I also like von Karajan, but slightly prefer his older recording from 1967, only because the energy is so intense. His later one (cited above) is excellent and perhaps better played, but I just personally prefer the electricity of the earlier outing.

And for No. 11, Rostropovich did a very good job with the LSO (and I heard him in New York do it live), and a very fine one people sometimes overlook is with James De Preist and Helsinki - great sound on the latter, especially. But again, my favorite - actually one of my favorite recordings, period - is Haitink/Concertgebouw, with the orchestra's percussion section having a field day.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 18, 2012, 07:00:13 AM
Most interesting, Bruce . . . I am not sure that I have yet gotten around to auditioning the Haitink account of the Eleventh . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Fafner on July 18, 2012, 07:01:16 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 18, 2012, 06:29:58 AM
Only apparently, as you are careful to say.  For (a) none of us has heard a recording of that Moscow performance, (b) it is not known how the composer might have reacted to the recording which we have available to us, and (c) the composer's gracious (and no doubt genuinely grateful) remarks are characteristic, but to take them as a kind of Gospel is (at the least) a disservice.

I don't take it as Gospel, but neither do I discount it.  In any case, the recording Karajan made of the 10th shortly afterwards is probably a better representation of the Moscow performance than the later digital recording.

(http://collectors-heaven.de/shop/images/product_images/info_images/2589a.jpg)

The director of your favorite, Mariss Jansons, was also in the audience that night, and described the performance as "unbelievable."  But, of course, Jansons was later to become Karajan's student.   :D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 18, 2012, 07:07:09 AM
Quote from: Fafner on July 18, 2012, 07:01:16 AM
I don't take it as Gospel, but neither do I discount it.  In any case, the recording Karajan made of the 10th shortly afterwards is probably a better representation of the Moscow performance than the later digital recording.

Well, if the horns actually sound fortissimo where they are marked fortissimo (which I am sure must have been the case in the hall during the performance) . . . yes, I can readily believe that this earlier recording is superior : )
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: bhodges on July 18, 2012, 07:08:53 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 18, 2012, 07:00:13 AM
Most interesting, Bruce . . . I am not sure that I have yet gotten around to auditioning the Haitink account of the Eleventh . . . .

Perhaps oddly, I like Haitink's sense of restraint here - as in his Shostakovich in general - and his tempi seem a bit slower than others. (You might think "the more intense and driven," the better.) He doesn't push the ensemble or underline the climaxes, which makes the result even more powerful.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 18, 2012, 07:11:36 AM
Quote from: Brewski on July 18, 2012, 07:08:53 AM
Perhaps oddly, I like Haitink's sense of restraint here - as in his Shostakovich in general . . . .

If that be odd, it is an oddity I pretty much share : )
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Fafner on July 18, 2012, 07:12:50 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 18, 2012, 07:07:09 AM
Well, if the horns actually sound fortissimo where they are marked fortissimo (which I am sure must have been the case in the hall during the performance) . . . yes, I can readily believe that this earlier recording is superior : )

I'm a little confused.  In the digital recording I hear horns playing things I previously would not have believed physically possible.   How did you ascertain that they are not playing "fortissimo?"
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 18, 2012, 07:26:57 AM
Quote from: Fafner on July 18, 2012, 07:12:50 AM
I'm a little confused.  In the digital recording I hear horns playing things I previously would not have believed physically possible.   How did you ascertain that they are not playing "fortissimo?"

Chiefly by listening : )

The last time I heard that recording was in a friend's living room where he played it on some of the best stereo equipment I have ever been near. It was a time not long after I had first made the acquaintance of the Jansons/Phila recording of the Tenth, and my friend had read my effusive praise . . . and since the HvK recording (yea, even the later recording) has always been the darling of the audio world, he proposed that we should listen to it.

There is an enormous climax in the middle of the first movement, a sustained tutti passage where there are a number of places where the horns are unison and fortissimo (I mean, so marked in the score).  In general, the brass are down in the mix of the HvK recording.  At one point, I put it to my friend: "The horns: is this fortissimo, would you say?"  He agreed . . . if that was fortissimo, then fortissimo itself is diminished to a puny thing . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on July 18, 2012, 07:39:00 AM
Jarvi is very good in No 4. Perhaps Kondrashin is my favourite in 4 and 11 'The Year 1905', but there are other fine versions too from Berglund etc and I really like Previn's recording of Nos 4 (EMI) and 8 (EMI or DGG). Slatkin's No 8 is a favourite and Mravinsky's 1937 recording of Symphony No 5 is in a class of its own - it sounds close in spirit to Symphony No 4. As for No 10 I agree about Ancerl. I just bought a fascinating version on ICA of Sveltlanov conducting Symphony 10 with the USSR SSO in London on 21st August 1968 - on the day that the Soviet Union invaded Czechoslovakia. The Symphony starts against a background of angry shouted protests from the audience ('Go Home! etc') whilst others in the audience try to hush them up - extraordinary.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 18, 2012, 07:46:49 AM
The Chicago brass in that Previn recording of the Fourth are something else, Jeffrey.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: bhodges on July 18, 2012, 07:47:28 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 18, 2012, 07:39:00 AM
I just bought a fascinating version on ICA of Sveltlanov conducting Symphony 10 with the USSR SSO in London on 21st August 1968 - on the day that the Soviet Union invaded Czechoslovakia. The Symphony starts against a background of angry shouted protests from the audience ('Go Home! etc') whilst others in the audience try to hush them up - extraordinary.

Now that sounds like a recording to have, for many reasons. Thanks for mentioning it!

--Bruce
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Fafner on July 18, 2012, 08:02:12 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 18, 2012, 07:26:57 AM
Chiefly by listening : )

The last time I heard that recording was in a friend's living room where he played it on some of the best stereo equipment I have ever been near. It was a time not long after I had first made the acquaintance of the Jansons/Phila recording of the Tenth, and my friend had read my effusive praise . . . and since the HvK recording (yea, even the later recording) has always been the darling of the audio world, he proposed that we should listen to it.

There is an enormous climax in the middle of the first movement, a sustained tutti passage where there are a number of places where the horns are unison and fortissimo (I mean, so marked in the score).  In general, the brass are down in the mix of the HvK recording.  At one point, I put it to my friend: "The horns: is this fortissimo, would you say?"  He agreed . . . if that was fortissimo, then fortissimo itself is diminished to a puny thing . . . .


I don't know if you've seen the film "Twelve Angry Men," but in that film a juror played by Henry Fonda notes that one witness to a murder claims to have glimpsed the crime through the last car of a passing elevated subway train, and another claims to have heard the defendant shout "I'm gonna kill ya," immediately followed by the sickening thud of the victim's body hitting the floor.  "How," Mr. Fonda's character asks, "could he have heard the defendant's threat if there was an elevated subway train roaring by just outside the windows?

So I put it to you, how could you have had this subtle conversation about whether a horn fortissimo was puny, if that "sustained tutti" was roaring away at concert volume from the best stereo system you have ever been near?  I put it to you that your memory is playing tricks with you, and the the recalled conversation took place while listening to a recording of a Poulenc flute sonata.   There's nothing more disappointing than a puny fortissimo in a Poulenc flute sonata.  ::)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on July 18, 2012, 09:30:44 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 18, 2012, 07:46:49 AM
The Chicago brass in that Previn recording of the Fourth are something else, Jeffrey.

That's very true Karl

I think that both Previn (No 4) and Slatkin (No 8) are great conductors of Shostakovich. The end of No 4 (one of the greatest moments in all music IMHO) is especially compelling and deeply felt in Previn's recording and the pace feels just right.

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 18, 2012, 09:36:23 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 18, 2012, 09:30:44 AM
That's very true Bruce

But . . . I'm Karl : )

(Mind you, I think the world of our Bruce.)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on July 18, 2012, 10:02:59 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 18, 2012, 09:36:23 AM
But . . . I'm Karl : )

(Mind you, I think the world of our Bruce.)

Apologies Karl(for it is he  :D) I wanted to respond to you and Bruce and got rather confused  :-\

I've amended the original post now.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on July 18, 2012, 10:05:55 AM
Quote from: Brewski on July 18, 2012, 07:47:28 AM
Now that sounds like a recording to have, for many reasons. Thanks for mentioning it!

--Bruce

Here it is Bruce - an extraordinary performance (for both historical and musical reasons);
[asin]B0059B0BZ4[/asin]
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 18, 2012, 10:10:45 AM
And thanks for the link, Jeffrey, that does look most interesting.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 18, 2012, 12:02:29 PM
Quote from: Fafner on July 18, 2012, 08:02:12 AM
I don't know if you've seen the film "Twelve Angry Men," but in that film a juror played by Henry Fonda notes that one witness to a murder claims to have glimpsed the crime through the last car of a passing elevated subway train, and another claims to have heard the defendant shout "I'm gonna kill ya," immediately followed by the sickening thud of the victim's body hitting the floor.  "How," Mr. Fonda's character asks, "could he have heard the defendant's threat if there was an elevated subway train roaring by just outside the windows?

So I put it to you, how could you have had this subtle conversation about whether a horn fortissimo was puny, if that "sustained tutti" was roaring away at concert volume from the best stereo system you have ever been near?  I put it to you that your memory is playing tricks with you, and the the recalled conversation took place while listening to a recording of a Poulenc flute sonata.   There's nothing more disappointing than a puny fortissimo in a Poulenc flute sonata.  ::)


Curses! Incarcerated again!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Fafner on July 18, 2012, 12:20:23 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 18, 2012, 12:02:29 PM
Curses! Incarcerated again!

Just trying to establish reasonable doubt.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 18, 2012, 12:22:47 PM
No, there was no Poulenc that evening : )
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: eyeresist on July 18, 2012, 06:33:40 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 18, 2012, 07:39:00 AMI just bought a fascinating version on ICA of Sveltlanov conducting Symphony 10 with the USSR SSO in London on 21st August 1968 - on the day that the Soviet Union invaded Czechoslovakia. The Symphony starts against a background of angry shouted protests from the audience ('Go Home! etc') whilst others in the audience try to hush them up - extraordinary.

I must have this one.

Symphony 4 - Rozhdestvensky, Barshai
Symphony 5 - Svetlanov
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 18, 2012, 06:40:38 PM
Does the heart good to see such favorable reviews of the Haitink set on Amazon.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Ataraxia on July 18, 2012, 06:44:44 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 18, 2012, 06:40:38 PM
Does the heart good to see such favorable reviews of the Haitink set on Amazon.

That's the one I have.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 18, 2012, 06:57:37 PM
You have chosen well, O Dave!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: kishnevi on July 18, 2012, 07:09:06 PM
Quote from: Fafner on July 18, 2012, 12:20:23 PM
Just trying to establish reasonable doubt.

I've not heard the performance--but if the horns couldn't be distinguished in the middle of that sustained tutti, then I would infer they were not playing a very fortissimo fortissimo.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 19, 2012, 02:07:34 AM
Where they ought to sing out above all else for those moments.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on July 19, 2012, 02:40:46 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on July 18, 2012, 06:33:40 PM
I must have this one.

Symphony 4 - Rozhdestvensky, Barshai
Symphony 5 - Svetlanov

You won't regret it! It is the most extaordinary experience listening to it - from the angry shouted protests at the start to the wild ovation at the end. All very moving in the circumstances. The Rimsky Korsakov fillers are very fine too.  By the way I don't agree with the review on Amazon.com and posted my own on Amazon UK - but you must make your own mind up and I'll be interested to hear what you think.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Evgeny-Svetlanov-State-Symphony-Orchestra/dp/B0059B0BZ4/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1342694735&sr=1-1
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on July 19, 2012, 02:56:57 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 18, 2012, 07:46:49 AM
The Chicago brass in that Previn recording of the Fourth are something else, Jeffrey.

Karl

I also a great fan of Previn's recording of Symphony 10 (EMI). The second movement is controversially slow but it helps you to hear it in a different way - which I rather like.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 19, 2012, 04:16:34 AM
Interesting, too, Jeffrey!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Beale on July 19, 2012, 04:58:10 AM
Ok, a question about the fifth symphony to stay on topic.

Reading the Classicstoday.com reviews, it appears there are two ways for a conductor to approach the finale. Victor Carr Jr wrote this about Lorin Maazel and the Cleveland Orchestra: "Maazel's finale builds to an excitingly affirmative conclusion–the kind prevalent before the revisionist "ironic" ending popularized by Rostropovich".

Now compare David Hurwitz on Yakov Kreizberg and Russian National Orchestra: "Kreizberg, like Sanderling, is absolutely convinced that the finale does not represent a "happy" ending."

So what do you prefer?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 19, 2012, 05:15:22 AM
I think that the musical question has been burdened with the politicization of The Shostakovich Wars.

On my own bottom line, there are two points:

1. In terms of the narrative of the composer's career:  Since the symphony was pointedly an olive branch for rehabilitation (survival, really) I do not see Shostakovich risking any appearance of thumbing his nose.

2. In purely musical terms:  I don't see the slower VS. faster tempo as simply mapping onto grief VS. joy.  Is the fast tempo of the Scherzo of the Tenth symphony an indication of happiness?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 19, 2012, 05:34:56 AM
Quote from: Beale on July 19, 2012, 04:58:10 AM
Ok, a question about the fifth symphony to stay on topic.

Reading the Classicstoday.com reviews, it appears there are two ways for a conductor to approach the finale. Victor Carr Jr wrote this about Lorin Maazel and the Cleveland Orchestra: "Maazel's finale builds to an excitingly affirmative conclusion–the kind prevalent before the revisionist "ironic" ending popularized by Rostropovich".

Now compare David Hurwitz on Yakov Kreizberg and Russian National Orchestra: "Kreizberg, like Sanderling, is absolutely convinced that the finale does not represent a "happy" ending."

So what do you prefer?

I prefer neither...or rather, I want it both ways. Which I turn to on any given day depends on my mood. As I've said elsewhere, my two favorite performances have finales that demonstrate those interpretative differences: Rostropovich/National makes the ending sound like repeated violent stabs to the heart while Bernstein/New York is unalloyed triumph.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on July 19, 2012, 10:21:15 AM
An overlooked 4th from Rozhdestvensky is this fire-breathing account with the Bolshoi:


(http://www.russiandvd.com/store/assets/product_images/imgs/front/35740.jpg)


The sound is better than what I've heard from the more common USSR Ministry of Culture DSCH recordings.


Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Fafner on July 19, 2012, 10:29:45 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 19, 2012, 05:34:56 AM
I prefer neither...or rather, I want it both ways. Which I turn to on any given day depends on my mood. As I've said elsewhere, my two favorite performances have finales that demonstrate those interpretative differences: Rostropovich/National makes the ending sound like repeated violent stabs to the heart while Bernstein/New York is unalloyed triumph.

I obviously don't get it.  I thought you are supposed to play it as though it is unalloyed triumph, but the over-the-top orchestration and off-kilter harmony plants the seed in your mind that something is being mocked.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on July 19, 2012, 10:46:03 AM
Another dark horse but really shouldn't be: Shostakovich was present at this recording (fine 1958 stereo sound):



[asin]B000003XK2[/asin]

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: John Copeland on July 19, 2012, 11:10:42 AM
Jarvi and the SNO accounts of Shosty have not yet won acclaim here.   :'(
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on July 19, 2012, 12:02:22 PM
Almost forgot this near one-stop from Wigglesworth:



[asin]B00000JF6O[/asin]

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on July 19, 2012, 01:16:45 PM
Quote from: Scots John on July 19, 2012, 11:10:42 AM
Jarvi and the SNO accounts of Shosty have not yet won acclaim here.   :'(

I did give a thumbs up for his recording of Symphony 4.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on July 19, 2012, 01:18:22 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on July 19, 2012, 10:21:15 AM
An overlooked 4th from Rozhdestvensky is this fire-breathing account with the Bolshoi:


(http://www.russiandvd.com/store/assets/product_images/imgs/front/35740.jpg)


The sound is better than what I've heard from the more common USSR Ministry of Culture DSCH recordings.

Looks like a very interesting CD. I have his recording on Olympia.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on July 19, 2012, 01:19:52 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on July 19, 2012, 10:46:03 AM
Another dark horse but really shouldn't be: Shostakovich was present at this recording (fine 1958 stereo sound):



[asin]B000003XK2[/asin]

I have this CD and agree that it is an excellent performance deserving of greater attention.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on July 19, 2012, 02:02:24 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 19, 2012, 01:18:22 PM
Looks like a very interesting CD. I have his recording on Olympia.

I forgot to mention it's live. It'd be interesting to compare the two.

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Octo_Russ on July 19, 2012, 04:04:05 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61r%2BXs-dkEL.jpg)


I have this recording of the Fifth, i've always been endeared to it, though i hear a number of people don't rate Bychkov, plus there's no coupling.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: John Copeland on July 19, 2012, 04:30:43 PM
Quote from: Octo_Russ on July 19, 2012, 04:04:05 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61r%2BXs-dkEL.jpg)


I have this recording of the Fifth, i've always been endeared to it, though i hear a number of people don't rate Bychkov, plus there's no coupling.

What a shame.  I think Bychkov is one of few who bring the best out of the music before him.  Never heard his Shostakovich though.  Must trace that and have a listen.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: John Copeland on July 19, 2012, 04:36:43 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 19, 2012, 02:40:46 AM
You won't regret it! It is the most extaordinary experience listening to it - from the angry shouted protests at the start to the wild ovation at the end. All very moving in the circumstances. The Rimsky Korsakov fillers are very fine too.  By the way I don't agree with the review on Amazon.com and posted my own on Amazon UK - but you must make your own mind up and I'll be interested to hear what you think.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Evgeny-Svetlanov-State-Symphony-Orchestra/dp/B0059B0BZ4/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1342694735&sr=1-1

I must get that.  That must be the same night as Rostropovich did Czech Dvoraks Cello Concerto to the same audience.  Brilliant.  It is my No1 on must get.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: eyeresist on July 19, 2012, 05:52:16 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 19, 2012, 05:15:22 AMI think that the musical question has been burdened with the politicization of The Shostakovich Wars.

On my own bottom line, there are two points:

1. In terms of the narrative of the composer's career:  Since the symphony was pointedly an olive branch for rehabilitation (survival, really) I do not see Shostakovich risking any appearance of thumbing his nose.

2. In purely musical terms:  I don't see the slower VS. faster tempo as simply mapping onto grief VS. joy.  Is the fast tempo of the Scherzo of the Tenth symphony an indication of happiness?

I agree with you here. I don't think the actual music points either way.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 20, 2012, 04:10:28 AM
The ambivalence is, I think, one of the indicators of the music's strength.  It works smokin' hot, and it works cool.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 20, 2012, 04:12:47 AM
Separately . . . here is what Hurwitz says of the Ančerl/Cz Phil recording of the Tenth:

Quote from: David HurwitzIt's amusing to remember that for much of the 1960s, Deutsche Grammophon was a local German label, and every so often we see evidence of its roots. Nothing else accounts for the notes to this release, which spend nearly all of their time talking about Wolfgang Schneiderhan and the Berlin Philharmonic while hardly mentioning Karel Ancerl and completely neglecting the Czech Philharmonic (and for much of the '50s and '60s the Czech orchestra was better than Berlin). Indeed, good as the Schneiderhan/Ancerl Stravinsky concerto is (and it's very good indeed, particularly in the two inner movements that Stravinsky labeled Aria I and Aria II), the real draw is this best-ever performance of Shostakovich's Tenth Symphony.

Recorded in 1956, just a couple of years after its premiere, this reading by Ancerl and the Czech Philharmonic still blows away most of the competition, including Mravinsky and Leningrad. The first movement flows spontaneously and effortlessly forward, rising to a massive central climax. Ancerl's scherzo never has been bettered, either for its playing or in its demonic drive and uninhibited emotional intensity (Mitropoulos actually was a bit faster, but far less disciplined). The third movement, with its evocative horn calls, sees Ancerl emphasizing its cool, mechanical rhythms to unsettling effect, while the finale flies by on a surge of adrenaline, those amazing Czech winds well to the fore. I can't imagine another European orchestra at this time that technically could have offered anything close to this achievement.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Daverz on July 23, 2012, 10:43:38 AM
QuoteQuote from: Scots John on July 19, 2012, 05:36:43 PM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=20723.msg645179#msg645179)
I must get that.  That must be the same night as Rostropovich did Czech Dvoraks Cello Concerto to the same audience.  Brilliant.  It is my No1 on must get.


I transferred Svetlanov's Melodiya recording of the 10th from an Angel-Melodiya Lp:

http://www.mediafire.com/?czyapx45p8z23
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: aukhawk on October 28, 2012, 06:21:59 AM
Quote from: Rhymenoceros on July 17, 2012, 09:40:51 PM
What are some of the top recordings of Shostakovich's 4th, 5th, 8th, 10th and 11th symphonies?

Confining myself to these five, my choices:
5th  I really like Previn's original (RCA) version with the LSO, almost his first recording after crossing over from 'dinner jazz'.
8th  I like Previn/LSO (EMI) here too - but recently I've enjoyed Oleg Caetani - very pacey, a remarkably 'Russian' sound from an Italian orchestra!
10th  I go with Svetlanov/USSR SO - and for a modern recording I like Petrenko.
11th  I've got memories of Stokowski in this, or De Priest/Helsinki.
4th  I leave till last - I've got the Jarvi but really I'm still looking - I might give Wigglesworth a try.

I love Haitink in Mahler, but find him a bit too straight-laced (aka boring) in Shostakovich.  :(  The 15th is his best shot.
Petrenko's cycle is excellent performance-wise, but I find the recordings a bit problematic - just too good  :o too much dynamic range, I find myself riding the volume all the time.

OT - 1st Symphony - Ormandy, and Caetani (big contrast between these two!)
6th  Petrenko,  9th Kondrashin,  15th (my favourite) Sanderling.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 28, 2012, 06:44:09 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on October 28, 2012, 06:21:59 AM
15th (my favourite) Sanderling.

Cleveland or Berlin?  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: pbarach on October 28, 2012, 06:49:22 AM
Haitink's 4th with Chicago is livelier than his earlier recording. Ormandy/Philly is also an excellent recording. I think Jarvi got poor sound--it gets very muddy and shrill in the louder portions.

For the 5th, I really like Rostropovich's first recording with the National Symphony (was on DGG). His LSO recording is less inspired and has miserable Barbican Hall sound.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: trung224 on October 28, 2012, 09:05:42 AM
Quote from: pbarach on October 28, 2012, 06:49:22 AM
Haitink's 4th with Chicago is livelier than his earlier recording. Ormandy/Philly is also an excellent recording. I think Jarvi got poor sound--it gets very muddy and shrill in the louder portions.

For the 5th, I really like Rostropovich's first recording with the National Symphony (was on DGG). His LSO recording is less inspired and has miserable Barbican Hall sound.
I really like Rostropovich's first Shostakovich 5 too. But I really don't know why at this time, when beginning conducting, not communicate well with the musician (he don't know English well), National Symphony Orchestral is only second-rate orchestra, Rostropovich can deliver such great performance but his two remake (with LSO and National SYmphony on Teldec) is very boring, uninspired.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on October 28, 2012, 11:27:31 AM
An orchestra's being second rate doesn't mean they are absolutely incapable of the occasional great performance, mind you.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on February 14, 2013, 03:54:30 PM
My initial listen to a disc of the Caetani cycle did not really wow me.  But, curious now to hear what he made of the Op.43 . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: alkan on February 17, 2013, 07:15:04 AM
Much to my surprise, my pick for the best recording of Op 43 is Rattle and the CBSO.    Great performance by both conductor and orchestra, and a terrific sound.    The final coda is awesome  ...  cataclysmic, then really eerie ....      Only Kondrashin gets close, but the recorded sound is not the same standard.     
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 17, 2013, 07:37:31 AM
Quote from: alkan on February 17, 2013, 07:15:04 AM
Much to my surprise, my pick for the best recording of Op 43 is Rattle and the CBSO.    Great performance by both conductor and orchestra, and a terrific sound.    The final coda is awesome  ...  cataclysmic, then really eerie ....      Only Kondrashin gets close, but the recorded sound is not the same standard.   

I second that. The creepy/ eerie/ apocalyptic character of the work comes out really well on this one.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on February 17, 2013, 09:04:10 AM
Very interesting, gents.  I just re-visited that one last night, and for my money . . . it's an impressive effort, great sound, fabulous execution on the part of the band, but . . . .

More than in any recording other than Gergiev's (which I should re-visit, as well) I find that a few of Sir Simon's tempo choices had me posing the rhetorical question, What was he thinking?  There was one of the earlyish bassoon solos which was so rubato-ish that I felt they were almost lost (I mean, they couldn't have been, that was what was meant, but that was the musical impression it left me with).  And there was an extended section of the third movement which was just too fast.  Again: obviously a tour-de-force in terms of both the ability and will of the conductor, and of the capacity of the orchesta; but I could not feel that it was musically motivated.  (Though, I am guessing, you may likely feel otherwise.)


Against such considerations, there are several positives for the performance/recording. But overall (of course, YMMV) there are half a dozen recordings of which I think rather better.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: alkan on February 18, 2013, 03:20:58 AM
Hi Karl,

Quote from: karlhenning on February 17, 2013, 09:04:10 AM
And there was an extended section of the third movement which was just too fast.  Again: obviously a tour-de-force in terms of both the ability and will of the conductor, and of the capacity of the orchesta; but I could not feel that it was musically motivated.  (Though, I am guessing, you may likely feel otherwise.)

I am guessing that the extended section in the 3rd mvt that you are referring to is the one with two note descending (and sometimes ascending) motif that is repeated endlessly for bar after bar.   I always found that quite boring and I'm quite glad that Sir Simon skims through it (and actually generates a bit of excitement).   

Quote from: karlhenning on February 17, 2013, 09:04:10 AM

I find that a few of Sir Simon's tempo choices had me posing the rhetorical question, What was he thinking?

I think that in this passage Sir Simon was thinking "what on earth was Shostakovich thinking here?"    :)

In general, given the loose and often grotesque nature of the work, I think a conductor has a lot of freedom to try to make sense of it in his own particular way.   

By the way, concerning extreme tempos, have you heard Kurt Sanderling's version of the 5th Symphony?   I was quite shocked at the incredible slowness of the final coda, but having read Sanderling's article (in the booklet) I find that it really works and is better than the usual "blaze of glory" endings from all other conductors.

Back to the 4th, I have to admit that I often dip into the final part of the finale ..... the apocalypse and the aftermath.    The adrenalin really starts to flow when the big drum starts up with a rhythm that always makes me think of a huge menacing bouncy ball heading straight at me.     And the dissonance screamed out by the trumpets is pure genius.   What a shock that generates on first hearing!   The phantasmorgoric ending always makes my spine tingle ... when the bass rhythm switches from 3 notes to 2, the lamenting strings, the bizzare woodwind colours, the distant and threatening drumroll .... it's incredible how much menace and power is conveyed by a simple, soft crescendo/diminuendo of the drum.       And I love Sir S's concentrated performance and the wonderful sound in this part .....

Karl, what performances are your favourites for the 4th ?

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on February 18, 2013, 06:40:59 AM
Quote from: alkan on February 18, 2013, 03:20:58 AM
Hi Karl,

I am guessing that the extended section in the 3rd mvt that you are referring to is the one with two note descending (and sometimes ascending) motif that is repeated endlessly for bar after bar.

Good morning, and thanks for entertaining my dissent!. : ) In fact, I had to go back to the recording this morning . . . I've been on something of an Opus 43 orgy, and in the interval, I had listened to the Barshai, which I found rather rushed in other places.

I knew the spot you meant, right off, for I admit that — not the first time I heard the piece, but the first time I heard the piece and felt that I actually liked it, and pretty thoroughly liked it — that was the one section on which I had some doubts, though even at the time, I was sure that if I dug into its guts, it would relate to a number of themes running through the whole piece.

My complaint actually is not in that section, but both before — the very head of that grand section, starting right after the keening oboes (and clarinets) [p.144] and after — you know the bit you practically cannot miss when, after all the motoric hocket, the oboes (and clarinets, again) come in with the descending accented half-note - quarter-note | quarter-note motif, all the way through to the massive trombone unison which cuts through the full orchestral accents [p.169] and on, until the piccolo / bass clarinet musette.

The thing is (what I have just checked, inspired by your kind inquiry), Shostakovich marks that Allegro on p.144 as the dotted-half-note at 84 . . . and Sir Simon definitely pushes that into the 94-100 range.  Then, it becomes a discussion of whether the markedly faster tempo is within interpretive license.

And my back-of-the-envelope reaction was, that the paragraphs before and after the hocket suffered.


Quote from: alkan on February 18, 2013, 03:20:58 AMBy the way, concerning extreme tempos, have you heard Kurt Sanderling's version of the 5th Symphony?   I was quite shocked at the incredible slowness of the final coda, but having read Sanderling's article (in the booklet) I find that it really works and is better than the usual "blaze of glory" endings from all other conductors.

Back to the 4th, I have to admit that I often dip into the final part of the finale ..... the apocalypse and the aftermath.    The adrenalin really starts to flow when the big drum starts up with a rhythm that always makes me think of a huge menacing bouncy ball heading straight at me.     And the dissonance screamed out by the trumpets is pure genius.   What a shock that generates on first hearing!   The phantasmorgoric ending always makes my spine tingle ... when the bass rhythm switches from 3 notes to 2, the lamenting strings, the bizzare woodwind colours, the distant and threatening drumroll .... it's incredible how much menace and power is conveyed by a simple, soft crescendo/diminuendo of the drum.       And I love Sir S's concentrated performance and the wonderful sound in this part .....

Karl, what performances are your favourites for the 4th ?

Ah, the finale of the Fifth! It's quite a challenge to make the "slow" take on the finale convincing . . . no, I've not heard the Sanderling.

Over at the WAYLTN thread, Ray (ChamberNut) asked the same
: )

Probably my favorite accounts of the Fourth are: Haitink / Chicago; Maksim Dmitriyevich / Prague; Rostropovich / National Symphony. I still have some sentimental fondness for the Previn / Chicago, because that was the recording which sold me on the piece.

I'm revisiting the Gergiev and Jansons to-day . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: alkan on February 18, 2013, 08:08:32 AM
Thanks for the detailed reply Karl.     It gives me a little-needed excuse to listen to the finale again, but with new ears after reading your insights.

Concerning the Sanderling 5th, it is only the final peroration that is slow, not the whole movement.   The effect is unsettling if you are expecting the usual triumphant, "long live Stalin and the communist party" type ending.   The effect is more like a kind of sullen "enforced enthusiasm", which is actually bordering on defiance.    I don't think that it could be played that way at its premiere (otherwise no more symphonies at all ....), but Sanderling maintains (based on conversations with Shostakovich in later life) that this is Shostakovich's real intention.

Sanderling had some interesting views.   He also said that the percussion at the end of the 15th symphony represents (I quote) "an intensive care ward in a hospital: the person is attached to various contraptions, and the dials and screens indicate that heartbeat and brain activity are gradually expiring, then comes a last convulsion and it's all over"     This transforms a rhythmic and snappy percussion ballet into something quite chilling ....

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on February 18, 2013, 09:53:04 AM
Quote from: alkan on February 18, 2013, 08:08:32 AM
Thanks for the detailed reply Karl.     It gives me a little-needed excuse to listen to the finale again, but with new ears after reading your insights.

Concerning the Sanderling 5th, it is only the final peroration that is slow, not the whole movement [....]

I understood you, though perhaps my reply came out a bit ambiguous.

I wonder, now, if I have any recording of the Fifth with that markedly slow tempo from rehearsal mark 131. Just now searching via Google, very curiously, I found a link to a post of my own on perhaps 'The Old GMG':


Quote from: khThe finale of the Fifth I have found a curious question.  Recalls the Bigendian/Smallendian debate in some ways :-)

And the drivers are so ephemeral.  There's the characteristically colorful story in Testimony (and how do we know that's actually Shostakovich talking?)  The typically unfathomable Shostakovich deadpan of the 'broken metronome' remark.  The postcard returned to Celibidache with the laconic "Da" (which, again, knowing both the state of operation of the Soviet postal system, and how some missives wound up on desks of the KGB and never actually reached recipients . . . I just cannot think it much of a document to go on).

Upon this insufficient foundation, in part, we have [ fast ending = triumph / slow ending = dissident sarcasm ] as something of a "line in the sand," in some quarters.

I don't have the firm answer, obviously.  But two of my asides are:

1.) Shostakovich was in probably the tightest of a number of tight spots he experienced throughout his career.  Too much depended on the piece making the right impression in the right quarters;  he was not in the position here, to take the musical risk of (say) the Ninth later on during the war.  So, I'm not sure this was the occasion for him to play such a daring card.  Obviously, I cannot say one way or the other, absolutely.

2.) I consider how broad the ending of the 'Leningrad'  Symphony is, and how unambiguously triumphant.  I don't think it at all a 'slam dunk' that breadth of tempo in the finale of the Fifth, maps onto scornful dissidence.

Well, I do have one: the Ben Zander / Boston Philharmonic which makes something of a didactic point of taking those six pages half as fast.  The result is not, I fear, a musical success in that recording — which is not any definitive ruling, of course.

Visiting three recordings in short order to-day, the Temirkanov / St Petersburg Philharmonic recording carries that passage more deliberately, though not absolutely at half-time, and it works very musically.

Hmm, Sanderling, eh? . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on February 19, 2013, 04:48:11 AM
Well, revisiting the Gergiev in the Fourth was a good exercise.  For the greater part of the first movement, he's quite musical.  There are just two places in the first movement where he either the moderately peculiar, or the inexplicable;  and I can only suppose that those bits jarred enough, that that pretty much gauged the recording for me.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on February 20, 2013, 07:12:28 AM
[ Cross-post ]

Quote from: karlhenning on February 20, 2013, 05:19:57 AM
First listen to this recording:

Дмитри Дмитриевич [ Dmitri Dmitriyevich (Shostakovich) ]
Симфония № 4 c-moll, соч. 43 [ Symphony № 4 in c minor, Opus 43 ]
Orchestra Sinfonica di Milano Giuseppe Verdi
Oleg Caetani


[asin]B000IY035U[/asin]

The first Caetani disc I heard contained the Ninth and Tenth Symphonies; I was not crazy about it – all right, I'll go ahead and say meh – although I might perhaps have listened a bit more generously, had I not heard more than one enthusiast praise the Caetani cycle unto the skies.  (I haven't catalogued my quarrels with the Ninth or Tenth, but can attend to that task if there be interest.)  Still, because at least one fellow musician whose opinion I take seriously (even though our tastes do disagree at a few points) has spoken highly of the cycle overall . . . and because, possibly as a partial result of my new-found enthusiasm for Bruckner, I've lately experienced a resurgent fascination with the Op.43 . . . I was curious to try Caetani out here.

This performance is marvelously good, and entirely enjoyable.  Are there recordings of this complex symphony with which I have no quibble at all?  I think there may be, one or even two.  With the present recording, my quarrels are refreshingly few, and non-fatal. The string fugato in the first movement feels a bit cautiously under-tempo – but then, I respect that more than driving the tempo fast, and failing to hold the string choir together (I'm talking to you, Rudolf).  Overall, it is a splendidly musical performance, and sheer pleasure to listen to.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Octave on February 21, 2013, 03:01:07 AM
Basic helpless question re: a full-cycle recommendation; please ignore or respond by PM if it's too much of an intrusion on thread conversation. 

I've worked my way through most of this thread and spent quite a bit of time with sound samples, but for the moment I feel drawn to get one or two more ~full-cycle sets of the symphonies before beginning piecemeal collection in earnest.  I only own the Barshai/NDR (in its Brilliant Classics issue), and I listened to the Haitink box one time.  Both have been powerful, but all I'm really hearing so far is the Shostakovich, such as it is.  I don't know if I've seen a surfeit of discussion on the overall merits of various full cycles over the past ~few years, unless I've just missed such discussion again and again.   
Two that I know I want are the Kondrashin and the Rozhdestvensky, but for the moment neither these is especially affordable, particularly the Rozhd; I'm going to hedge my bets on reissues. 
Two others of which I keep hearing mixed reports are the Jansons and Maxim Shostakovich.  How any of these, or others, compare on the whole to two I've heard (Barshai/Haitink) would be of interest.
Of course, I'm not fixated at all on the cycles I've mentioned.

Again, please PM me if in fact this ground has been trawled too often before.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on February 21, 2013, 04:19:23 AM
Actually, I think that perfectly on point, and it is no intrusion in the least.

I also think it may be that you will get as many different answers, as neighbors who answer
: )

With both Jansons and Shostakovich fils, the profile of the recording is delightfully clear, the bands are well rehearsed . . . for me, there is nothing which gets in the way of any of the symphonies.

I've not heard all of the Jansons, but I find his recordings of the Eighth, Tenth, Thirteenth and Fifteenth excellent indeed (I need to revisit him in the Fourth, so I shall tentatively point out that others highly endorse that 'un, too); and in the others which I remember listening to (nos. 1-3), fully competitive
; )

Maksim Dmitriyevich's set is essentially my reference. The adjective authoritative tends to be applied to Kondrashin and Barshai, and of course it applies equally well to the son of the composer;  with Maksim Dmitriyevich, there is also a cool-headedness which I find a refreshing benefit.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on February 21, 2013, 04:26:14 AM
Quote from: Octave on February 21, 2013, 03:01:07 AM
Basic helpless question re: a full-cycle recommendation; please ignore or respond by PM if it's too much of an intrusion on thread conversation. 

Two others of which I keep hearing mixed reports are the Jansons and Maxim Shostakovich.  How any of these, or others, compare on the whole to two I've heard (Barshai/Haitink) would be of interest.
Of course, I'm not fixated at all on the cycles I've mentioned.

Again, please PM me if in fact this ground has been trawled too often before.

The heights of Jansons' cycles include some of the finest DSCH recordings in modern sound... especially those with the BRSO, but also the Pittsburgh 8th, for example.

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/04/jansons-latest-in-shostakovich.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/04/jansons-latest-in-shostakovich.html)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/04/mariss-jansonss-dsch-4.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/04/mariss-jansonss-dsch-4.html)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/07/shostakovich-8th-with-rostropovich-on.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/07/shostakovich-8th-with-rostropovich-on.html)

That said, it's not the most even cycle... an Oslo Vienna 5th is rather so-so, ditto the LSO 15.

Maxim's "Czech" cycle never quite did it for me... the magic -- alleged or real -- of earlier recordings is something I'm missing... perhaps it's not even there. Karl rather likes that cycle, though, if I gathered correctly, and may be able to speak more to what he considers its particular strengths (or weaknesses).  [He seems to have done so, by the time I've gotten around to hit "Post"]

Kondrashin (Melodiya) is one elemental part of the DSCH puzzle. Also not the answer to all your questions, but a stupendous alternative to have.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Daverz on February 21, 2013, 06:20:09 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 21, 2013, 04:26:14 AM


Maxim's "Czech" cycle never quite did it for me... the magic -- alleged or real -- of earlier recordings is something I'm missing... perhaps it's not even there.

Not sure what you mean by "earlier recordings".  Maxim's Soviet era recordings of 5 and 15 were somewhat famous.  I don't think the 15th ever made it to CD.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on February 21, 2013, 06:41:25 AM
Quote from: Daverz on February 21, 2013, 06:20:09 AM
Not sure what you mean by "earlier recordings".  Maxim's Soviet era recordings of 5 and 15 were somewhat famous.  I don't think the 15th ever made it to CD.

Precisely those. Whatever it was that I heard those recordings being described as (not that the 5th turned out to be all that, once I got my hands on it), was not what I hear in the cycle... which is, if anything, rather cool-eyed and level-headed, as Karl intimates.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Daverz on February 21, 2013, 06:48:55 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 21, 2013, 06:41:25 AM
Precisely those. Whatever it was that I heard those recordings being described as (not that the 5th turned out to be all that, once I got my hands on it), was not what I hear in the cycle... which is, if anything, rather cool-eyed and level-headed, as Karl intimates.

I think Maxim's old 15 does hold up.  I remember my friends were unimpressed with the 5th (RCA-Melodiya).  I think the first movement was described as "soggy".
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: aukhawk on February 22, 2013, 07:05:52 AM
I've got that 15th on LP - perhaps I'll make an effort and rip it to FLAC, would be interesting to hear it again.  I always formed the impression that it was a bit 'immature' in the sense that the work was still very new when this recording was made, and it was a few years before some conductors (Sanderling springs to mind) really began to plumb the depths.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on February 22, 2013, 07:39:27 AM
Quote from: Daverz on February 21, 2013, 06:20:09 AM
Not sure what you mean by "earlier recordings".  Maxim's Soviet era recordings of 5 and 15 were somewhat famous.  I don't think the 15th ever made it to CD.

Maxim's No 15 is my favourite - especially for the pitter-patter ending. Outrageous that it never made it to CD.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: The new erato on February 22, 2013, 10:23:57 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 22, 2013, 07:39:27 AM
Maxim's No 15 is my favourite - especially for the pitter-patter ending. Outrageous that it never made it to CD.
As opposed to the set on Supraphon?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: The new erato on February 24, 2013, 12:12:09 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-InK6gTGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Anybody have any opinions on these?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Octave on February 24, 2013, 12:23:01 AM
I forgot to thank Jens and Karl for the cycles feedback; thanks, guys
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Daverz on February 24, 2013, 12:41:46 AM
Quote from: The new erato on February 24, 2013, 12:12:09 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-InK6gTGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Anybody have any opinions on these?

We could probably come up with better performances for each recording (some of them by Sanderling!), but I think any Shostakovich fan will want this box.  Good sonics (as usual from this source) and good playing.

I have these in an cheap Edel box of Sanderling things (no notes at all).  I also had a couple of the original single issues, which came with excellent notes, so I should have kept them.  I don't know whether this box includes the notes.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: alkan on February 25, 2013, 01:26:24 AM
Quote from: The new erato on February 24, 2013, 12:12:09 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-InK6gTGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Anybody have any opinions on these?
I too have this set and I find it to be really excellent.     My highlights are nos 5, 10 and 15, but the others are also pretty good.    Excellent sound and the performances are very intense and concentrated.    The start of the 5th is really gripping .... quite fearsome and unsettling.   I've already posted earlier about Sanderling's interpretation of the ending of the work.    It makes a tremendous contrast to Kondrashin's version.    Following the earlier discussion with Karl, I think that both styles of interpretation (dissident sarcasm versus triumph) are valid.   It's incredible that such music can be played in such opposite ways and still remain coherent.

The set is actually a collection of individual CD's in ther own cases and with individual booklets.    The notes are excellent, consisting mainly of interviews with Sanderling, who was close to Shostakovich.

I cannot compare with many of the cycles by other conductors (except Kondrashin)   I just know that I am very happy with this set and I dip into it quite often.   
Title: Vandermolen Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: alkan on February 25, 2013, 01:36:22 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 22, 2013, 07:39:27 AM
Maxim's No 15 is my favourite - especially for the pitter-patter ending. Outrageous that it never made it to CD.

Pitter-patter !     Well, actually I admit that I used to see it this way too until I read Sanderling's program notes for the 15th  (below an excerpt from an earlier post). 

Sanderling had some interesting views.   He also said that the percussion at the end of the 15th symphony represents (I quote) "an intensive care ward in a hospital: the person is attached to various contraptions, and the dials and screens indicate that heartbeat and brain activity are gradually expiring, then comes a last convulsion and it's all over"     This transforms a rhythmic and snappy percussion ballet into something quite chilling ....

Although I still enjoy the interplay of the percussion rhythms, I can't get Sanderling's disturbing image out of my head when listening ....

I too have Maxim's recording on LP .... a historical document and an excellent recording.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on February 25, 2013, 03:41:09 AM
Quote from: The new erato on February 24, 2013, 12:12:09 AM
Anybody have any opinions on [Sanderling's Shostakovich]?

Yes. Essential DSCH from someone who never made any loud-mouth proclamations about authenticity-by-contact but just delivered the deeds, instead. Central, in a supplemental way, to any good DSCH symphony collection.


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000025R32.01.L.jpg)
  DSCH
Symphonies 1, 5, 6, 8, 10, 15
K.Sanderling / Berlin SO

Edel (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000025R32/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000025R32/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000025R32/goodmusicguide-21)

You might feel compelled, afterwards, to seek out all the other Sanderling DSCH recordings, too... so be forewarned.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on February 25, 2013, 04:30:16 AM
Well, I have the warm feeling for having fetched that 'un in, and now need to see about listening : )
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Brian on February 25, 2013, 04:43:20 AM
Quote from: The new erato on February 24, 2013, 12:12:09 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-InK6gTGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Anybody have any opinions on these?

It's in my top three Tenths, alongside V. Petrenko and Jansons.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Mirror Image on February 25, 2013, 06:57:36 AM
Quote from: The new erato on February 24, 2013, 12:12:09 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-InK6gTGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Anybody have any opinions on these?

Excellent set overall. Sanderling's BSO 15th isn't as good as his Cleveland, but the other performances are all spot-on and incredibly intense. I do like this 8th and 10th a lot. The 5th is good, but nobody beats Bernstein's Live in Japan performance here. The 6th is handled well with a brooding opening movement and that only becomes more gripping as it progresses. The last movement (aka 'demonic circus music' as I like to call it) is great fun here. I really have enjoyed these performances, erato and I'm sure you will too.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: The new erato on February 25, 2013, 09:06:25 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 25, 2013, 06:57:36 AM
Excellent set overall. Sanderling's BSO 15th isn't as good as his Cleveland, but the other performances are all spot-on and incredibly intense. I do like this 8th and 10th a lot. The 5th is good, but nobody beats Bernstein's Live in Japan performance here. The 6th is handled well with a brooding opening movement and that only becomes more gripping as it progresses. The last movement (aka 'demonic circus music' as I like to call it) is great fun here. I really have enjoyed these performances, erato and I'm sure you will too.
Thanks, John. They're moving upwards in my list(s).
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on March 01, 2013, 04:52:54 AM
The Sanderling Sixth is the first I've listened to in that set, very nice indeed.  In tone, reminds me of the Temirkanov/St Petersburg recording.

Anyone have an opinion about the Slatkin recording of the Eighth & Tenth?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 01, 2013, 10:40:40 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 01, 2013, 04:52:54 AM

Anyone have an opinion about the Slatkin recording of the Eighth & Tenth?[/font]

My favorite 8th, haven't heard 10th.

I like Slatkin, Haydn, Shostakovich, RVW, Orff, Elgar, Barber, Ives, etc... all solid performances from him. Orchestras just seem to play with extreme precision when under Slatkin, especially the St. Louis SO during his tenure with them.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on March 01, 2013, 11:21:03 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 01, 2013, 10:40:40 AM
Orchestras just seem to play with extreme precision when under Slatkin, especially at least the St. Louis SO during his tenure with them.

Never mind the snarkification.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Brahmsian on June 03, 2013, 10:03:38 AM
Has anyone heard the recently released Petrenko and RLPO's account of the 7th?

I've been listening to it the last couple of days.

Overall, I like it.

Particularly the final two movements.

I'm slightly disappointed by the 2nd movement.  I find it does not quite enough of a good pace to it.  Too slow for my tastes, I guess?  ;D





Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: kishnevi on June 03, 2013, 06:11:57 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on June 03, 2013, 10:03:38 AM
Has anyone heard the recently released Petrenko and RLPO's account of the 7th?

I've been listening to it the last couple of days.

Overall, I like it.

Particularly the final two movements.

I'm slightly disappointed by the 2nd movement.  I find it does not quite enough of a good pace to it.  Too slow for my tastes, I guess?  ;D

I've given it one listen, when it arrived.  It seemed fine,  but made no real impression.  I remember the second movement seeming more softer edged and lyrical than I remember from other performances, so I'm guessing I liked the pacing better than you. Still, it didn't grab me as a must have recording.

On a related note, has anyone had a chance to hear the new recording of the 10th by Janssons and the Concertgebouw,  on their in house label (RCO Live)--or the concerts at which it was recorded, for that matter.
(Jens, I seem to remember a review or two of yours featuring Janssons on Ionarts--was this one of them?)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on June 04, 2013, 12:57:04 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 03, 2013, 06:11:57 PM

On a related note, has anyone had a chance to hear the new recording of the 10th by Janssons and the Concertgebouw,  on their in house label (RCO Live)--or the concerts at which it was recorded, for that matter.
(Jens, I seem to remember a review or two of yours featuring Janssons on Ionarts--was this one of them?)

Nope... I wasn't at that concert. But I can tell you that from knowing what I do from and about the RCO-players and how they react to Jansons doing Shostakovich, I absolutely need to hear the recording!
Title: Re: Vandermolen Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Herman on June 05, 2013, 11:33:30 PM
Quote from: alkan on February 25, 2013, 01:36:22 AM
Pitter-patter !     Well, actually I admit that I used to see it this way too until I read Sanderling's program notes for the 15th  (below an excerpt from an earlier post). 

Sanderling had some interesting views.   He also said that the percussion at the end of the 15th symphony represents (I quote) "an intensive care ward in a hospital: the person is attached to various contraptions, and the dials and screens indicate that heartbeat and brain activity are gradually expiring, then comes a last convulsion and it's all over"     This transforms a rhythmic and snappy percussion ballet into something quite chilling ....

Although I still enjoy the interplay of the percussion rhythms, I can't get Sanderling's disturbing image out of my head when listening ....

I too have Maxim's recording on LP .... a historical document and an excellent recording.

That's a way of listening to it. The way I interpret the pitter patter is that DSCH is letting go of sound structured into music. It's music returning t mere sound; the noise the universe makes. Etcetera
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: valtys on June 25, 2013, 12:16:12 PM
Has anyone compared the new Melodiya reissues of Kondrashin's cycle compared to the Aulos release?

I own several of the original Melodiya recordings, and jumped on the Aulos set when it came out several years back. I never thought I would be tempted to buy the same recordings a third time!

But these recordings truly are incredible. If the new set has much better sound, I may get it.

I also wonder what people think of Kitajenko's cycle? After having listened to most of it, I am of the opinion that this could be one of the best sets to own. The 4th, 8th, 11th, and 12th are some of my favorites on there. The sound quality is absolutely superb. I already like this more than Barshai's cycle, which I thought was excellent as well.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on June 25, 2013, 01:00:45 PM
Quote from: valtys on June 25, 2013, 12:16:12 PM
Has anyone compared the new Melodiya reissues of Kondrashin's cycle compared to the Aulos release?

Without side-by-side, except in the 4th and 15th, I'd say that the Melodiya cycle is just a tad better... but not nearly as much as the Aulos was better than previously available copies. So no... I suppose I'd not think it expedient to triple-up.

Love Kitajenko... hate his Fifth. But 14 out of 15 ain't bad.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: valtys on June 25, 2013, 01:24:33 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 25, 2013, 01:00:45 PM
Without side-by-side, except in the 4th and 15th, I'd say that the Melodiya cycle is just a tad better... but not nearly as much as the Aulos was better than previously available copies. So no... I suppose I'd not think it expedient to triple-up.

Love Kitajenko... hate his Fifth. But 14 out of 15 ain't bad.

Thanks for the response! Looks like the Aulos set will be good enough as a keeper in regards to Kondrashin.

I agree that the 5th may be the weakest in Kitajenko's set.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on June 25, 2013, 01:48:40 PM
14 out of 15 isn't bad. But the Fifth is a hell of a ball to drop $:)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on June 25, 2013, 02:27:03 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 25, 2013, 01:48:40 PM
14 out of 15 isn't bad. But the Fifth is a hell of a ball to drop $:)

But it's also the least important in any set, because any DSCH-listener is bound to have several individual copies of their liking of that one, already.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles &amp; Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on June 25, 2013, 02:42:10 PM
That's fair.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Tyson on July 07, 2013, 03:10:34 PM
Kondrashin has been a favorite of mine for a very long time (have the Aulos set), but over time my appreciation for Haitink has grown quite a bit.  Enough that it's taken over the 2nd spot from Barshai, and it's making a charge for the top spot.  I've been finding the new Petrenko cycle overrated. 
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: relm1 on July 08, 2013, 12:53:59 AM
Quote from: Tyson on July 07, 2013, 03:10:34 PM
Kondrashin has been a favorite of mine for a very long time (have the Aulos set), but over time my appreciation for Haitink has grown quite a bit.  Enough that it's taken over the 2nd spot from Barshai, and it's making a charge for the top spot.  I've been finding the new Petrenko cycle overrated.

I think I agree with you that petrenko seems overrated but the critics are consistently praising it.  What do you think of mark wigglesworth's cycle on BIS?  It's a unique interpretation to be sure.  Excellent sonics (except the symphony no. 7 where the levels are just too low).  I don't see his name mentioned much when discussing cycles.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 10, 2013, 04:26:30 AM
A little to my surprise, I find that I only have the Fourth and the Thirteenth from the Barshai cycle.  At the current price-point, even though I have my reservations, I should fetch in the set.

Quote from: Tyson on July 07, 2013, 03:10:34 PM
Kondrashin has been a favorite of mine for a very long time (have the Aulos set), but over time my appreciation for Haitink has grown quite a bit.  Enough that it's taken over the 2nd spot from Barshai, and it's making a charge for the top spot.

Yes! Haitink is too seldom given the musical credit here (and in his Vaughan Williams cycle) which is his due.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 10, 2013, 04:31:15 AM
Petrenko . . . I've found all that I have heard good, sometimes very good indeed; and I feel that this is recommendation enough for the enterprise, certainly.  Perhaps there has been some inflated praise, though I understand a natural excitement during the progress of so strong an effort.  It isn't going to be fair to any present-day artist (and the practice of the art must continue, we don't want orchestral music to be entirely an archival affair) to demand that he match the very highest benchmark.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Jay F on July 10, 2013, 05:43:03 AM
I'm continuing to listen to my Barshai cycle. I'm just tickled that I happened upon Shostakovich this late in life. I thought I'd heard everything I'd ever want to listen to, but instead, I have a whole new, huge body of work to revel in.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 10, 2013, 05:44:57 AM
That's a wonderful feeling, and this isn't the last of it!

Which symphonies have you heard, now?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Jay F on July 10, 2013, 06:00:09 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 10, 2013, 05:44:57 AM
That's a wonderful feeling, and this isn't the last of it!

Which symphonies have you heard, now?

Symphonies 3 through 9.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 10, 2013, 06:05:02 AM
Splendid, carry on!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Jay F on July 10, 2013, 06:06:10 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 10, 2013, 06:05:02 AM
Splendid, carry on!

Just moved into ten. I'm listening on my computer, just playing it in order. I skipped 1 and 2, though.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 10, 2013, 06:08:22 AM
Half the time, the Tenth is my favorite Shostakovich symphony.

No pressure, though
  ;)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 10, 2013, 06:10:43 AM
For whatever reason you may have skipped the First . . . if you're game, I should suggest listening to the First just before the Fifteenth, they are luminously complementary.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Jay F on July 10, 2013, 06:20:07 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 10, 2013, 06:10:43 AM
For whatever reason you may have skipped the First . . . if you're game, I should suggest listening to the First just before the Fifteenth, they are luminously complementary.

Okay. I'll do that. I skipped the first and second symphonies because some reviewer said they weren't that good. Probably someone writing in the Penguin Guide. I don't remember.

I'm now listening to the fourth movement of the tenth. I think this is going to be a favorite movement.

Thanks, Karl.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: North Star on July 10, 2013, 06:24:10 AM
Quote from: Jay F on July 10, 2013, 06:20:07 AM
Okay. I'll do that. I skipped the first and second symphonies because some reviewer said they weren't that good. Probably someone writing in the Penguin Guide. I don't remember.

I'm now listening to the fourth movement of the tenth. I think this is going to be a favorite movement.

Thanks, Karl.
I'd suggest skipping Penguin Guide instead. The Shostakovich symphonies are great, and Karl's suggestion is excellent; listen to nos. 11-14 next, then no. 1 & 15.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 10, 2013, 06:33:09 AM
Aye, if anything I do prefer the Second to the Third.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on July 10, 2013, 06:51:02 AM
Quote from: North Star on July 10, 2013, 06:24:10 AM
I'd suggest skipping Penguin Guide instead. The Shostakovich symphonies are great, and Karl's suggestion is excellent; listen to nos. 11-14 next, then no. 1 & 15.

Then the 4th and 5th. Or maybe the 4th right away. It had a bad rap for many years, but it is not only one of his finest, it contains all the seeds of all that would become Shostakovich's music. And, for better or worse, it's the most obviously close DSCH ever got to his Symphony-hero Mahler.



assorted DSCH-links:


Mariss Jansons's DSCH-4 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/04/mariss-jansonss-dsch-4.html)

Shostakovich, Symphony No.4, Gergiev & Barshai (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/01/shostakovich-symphony-no4-gergiev.html)

Gergiev's Munich Shostakovich - Symphonies 6 & 10 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/05/gergievs-munich-shostakovich-symphonies.html)

Gergiev's Munich Shostakovich - Symphonies 7 & 9 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/05/gergievs-munich-shostakovich-symphonies_11.html)

Gergiev's Munich Shostakovich - Symphonies 1 & 4 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/11/gergievs-munich-shostakovich-symphonies.html)

Gergiev's Munich Shostakovich - Symphonies 11 & 15 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/08/gergievs-munich-shostakovich-symphonies.html)

Ionarts-at-Large: The Admirable, Adorable Stanisław Skrowaczewski (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/05/ionarts-at-large-admirable-adorable.html)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Jay F on July 10, 2013, 06:58:15 AM
I'm now at the organ movement of the Eleventh. Sublime.

And now into the tense, military-movie-music-like second movement of the Eleventh. How exciting.

Thanks for the suggestions, all of you.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: North Star on July 10, 2013, 08:01:14 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 10, 2013, 06:51:02 AM
Then the 4th and 5th. Or maybe the 4th right away. It had a bad rap for many years, but it is not only one of his finest, it contains all the seeds of all that would become Shostakovich's music. And, for better or worse, it's the most obviously close DSCH ever got to his Symphony-hero Mahler.

Yes! The 4th is one of the best of the whole cycle. Definitely listen to these two together, too.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Jay F on July 10, 2013, 08:30:07 AM
I created little playlists with DSCH 1 & 15 and DSCH 4 & 5.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 11, 2013, 06:49:14 AM
Jay, where are you in your cycle?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 11, 2013, 06:51:26 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 10, 2013, 06:08:22 AM
Half the time, the Tenth is my favorite Shostakovich symphony.

Quote from: North Star on July 10, 2013, 08:01:14 AM
Yes! The 4th is one of the best of the whole cycle. Definitely listen to these two together, too.

The other half, it's the Fourth. Though I freely confess, I do like them all, and mighty well.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Jay F on July 11, 2013, 08:56:49 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 11, 2013, 06:49:14 AM
Jay, where are you in your cycle?

Hi, Karl - I stopped in the middle of No. 14. After listening to "Babi Yar," I just couldn't hear any more Russian singing. I got involved in the HD Tracks page, listening mainly to "better sounding" pop and rock clips (Grateful Dead, Linda Ronstadt, the Doors), and then listened to everything I have by R.E.M. on iTunes shuffle.

After I finished R.E.M., I listened to DSCH 1 and 15 in sequence, which is very pleasing. Thank you for the suggestion. Then I went to bed. I am going to listen to that playlist again, and the combined 4 & 5.

Today, my Webern box set arrived, and I'm listening to Disc 1. I'm on Schubert's "German Dances" now, and like it a lot. Does this mean I like Schubert or Webern? (I already know I like Schubert.)

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: North Star on July 11, 2013, 09:39:55 AM
Quote from: Jay F on July 11, 2013, 08:56:49 AM
Hi, Karl - I stopped in the middle of No. 14. After listening to "Babi Yar," I just couldn't hear any more Russian singing. I got involved in the HD Tracks page, listening mainly to "better sounding" pop and rock clips (Grateful Dead, Linda Ronstadt, the Doors), and then listened to everything I have by R.E.M. on iTunes shuffle.

After I finished R.E.M., I listened to DSCH 1 and 15 in sequence, which is very pleasing. Thank you for the suggestion. Then I went to bed. I am going to listen to that playlist again, and the combined 4 & 5.

Today, my Webern box set arrived, and I'm listening to Disc 1. I'm on Schubert's "German Dances" now, and like it a lot. Does this mean I like Schubert or Webern? (I already know I like Schubert.)
Taking a break between 13 & 14 is totally understandable. Maybe you ought to listen to one with no vocals between 13 & 14?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 11, 2013, 09:45:02 AM
Quote from: Jay F on July 11, 2013, 08:56:49 AM
Hi, Karl - I stopped in the middle of No. 14. After listening to "Babi Yar," I just couldn't hear any more Russian singing. I got involved in the HD Tracks page, listening mainly to "better sounding" pop and rock clips (Grateful Dead, Linda Ronstadt, the Doors), and then listened to everything I have by R.E.M. on iTunes shuffle.

After I finished R.E.M., I listened to DSCH 1 and 15 in sequence, which is very pleasing. Thank you for the suggestion. Then I went to bed. I am going to listen to that playlist again, and the combined 4 & 5.

Today, my Webern box set arrived, and I'm listening to Disc 1. I'm on Schubert's "German Dances" now, and like it a lot. Does this mean I like Schubert or Webern? (I already know I like Schubert.)

So far, that you like Schubert  :)

Webern's soundworld is very different (and likeable, IMO).

Understand completely about absorbing only so much Russian singing (as I understand Russian, I have a similar limitation with certain other languages). Then, too, the Fourteenth is a very different kettle of fish to the Thirteenth.

Have you gone back to check out the Second, yet?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Jay F on July 11, 2013, 09:48:55 AM
Quote from: North Star on July 11, 2013, 09:39:55 AM
Taking a break between 13 & 14 is totally understandable. Maybe you ought to listen to one with no vocals between 13 & 14?

Good idea.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Jay F on July 11, 2013, 09:52:47 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 11, 2013, 09:45:02 AM
Have you gone back to check out the Second, yet?

No, I haven't gotten to it yet. The Webern box set came this morning in the mail. I'm listening to its second disc now. I'm mad about my Austrians, maybe because my grandfather was from Austria (I never met him, though). I like Shostakovich equally, or more, however.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 11, 2013, 09:53:34 AM
Well, you've certainly plunged right in!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Jay F on July 11, 2013, 09:55:34 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 11, 2013, 09:53:34 AM
Well, you've certainly plunged right in!

I'm so glad there is still this much music I'd not listened to before. I thought Mahler, Schubert, Beethoven, and Mozart were all I needed. Oh, and Bach, of course.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 11, 2013, 10:03:07 AM
I find that one's ears grow bigger over time, unless we lock up  $:)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on October 11, 2013, 04:32:55 AM
[ Cross-post ]

For me personally, the funniest item orbiting around this review (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21529.msg749450.html#msg749450) is . . . When Peter Bloom and I were chatting after our King's Chapel recital, something Peter mentioned triggered an amusing Wooster memory.

For my very last jury at Wooster, there were only two jurors:  my clarinet instructor, and the flute instructor (an adjunct faculty member who came onto campus two days a week to give lessons).  I played something which not long before I had played (and played quite well) for my senior recital.  My clarinet instructor, Nancy, was entirely satisfied with my playing for the jury.  The other juror's comments on the sheet were brief, and went thus:  You played fast, you played slow. So what?

Happily, my own teacher was there to put this into context, so that my spirit was not shattered.  But, as I say, I felt I had played very well, and my instructor felt the same.

Now, I have not yet listened to the Petrenko account of the Op.43 . . . and probably, especially as a result of this meh review, I should wait until I can give the piece undivided attention, this Sunday or Monday.  But I can easily envision a case where the performance and recording are excellent, and Dan Morgan's 650-word review boils down to:  You played fast, you played slow. So what?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Brian on October 11, 2013, 04:52:04 AM
Now that I've given the review my undivided attention, I agree it's an example of how unhelpful reviews can be.

Helpful discussion:
- "the perky march rhythms lack menace and that the sudden car-crash of a climax at 7:04 passes for precious little"

Unhelpful bits:
- what does it mean to say that someone is playing music rhetorically?
- what does it mean to say that a performance of Shostakovich is raunchy?
- what are "spectral interventions"?
- "one feels both violated and liberated at the end" - are we comparing this symphony to rape?

I like that story, Karl. I might borrow "You played fast, you played slow, so what?" as a great metaphor for this kind of thing.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on October 11, 2013, 04:59:07 AM
Not sure I can help myself, and I may play the Petrenko today even though I am apt to be distracted . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Parsifal on October 11, 2013, 05:21:18 AM
Quote from: Brian on October 11, 2013, 04:52:04 AM
Now that I've given the review my undivided attention, I agree it's an example of how unhelpful reviews can be.

Helpful discussion:
- "the perky march rhythms lack menace and that the sudden car-crash of a climax at 7:04 passes for precious little"

Unhelpful bits:
- what does it mean to say that someone is playing music rhetorically?
- what does it mean to say that a performance of Shostakovich is raunchy?
- what are "spectral interventions"?
- "one feels both violated and liberated at the end" - are we comparing this symphony to rape?

I like that story, Karl. I might borrow "You played fast, you played slow, so what?" as a great metaphor for this kind of thing.

Your supposedly unhelpful bits strike me as being as helpful as anything I've read in a review.  Violated and liberated does not necessarily mean rape.  I wish all of the reviews I've seen had this much information in them.  Of course, he is critical of your boy so you are going to say it is a bad review.

I reiterate, most valuable thing in the review is that Wigglesworth has a recording of the piece on BIS.  Already in my shopping cart.  Now I'm looking for the best price.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on October 11, 2013, 05:22:47 AM
Sorry, I see scads of opinion, but little information. The existence of a Wigglesworth recording, yes, that is information. Buried in there.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Parsifal on October 11, 2013, 05:31:49 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 11, 2013, 05:22:47 AM
Sorry, I see scads of opinion, but little information. The existence of a Wigglesworth recording, yes, that is information. Buried in there.

Yes, there is a lot of disparaging language in that review.  What I get from that is he listened to Petrenko's other recordings and he thinks they stink.  But the phrases Brian singled out strike me as quite clear in their meaning.  I have no dog in this fight (I find myself with no curiosity whatsoever about Petrenko's Shostakovich recordings) but the review strikes me as typical, perhaps a bit better than average with regards to "information" conveyed.  But "above average classical recording review" is a very, very low standard, sort of like an above average story in the National Enquirer.

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on October 11, 2013, 05:40:28 AM
Right, I think we are all agreed: reviews whose informational content boils down to I don't like this one, listen, here are these others I like better; sorry I cannot be bothered to give you musical reasons why are the journalistic equivalent of fruitflies.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on October 11, 2013, 09:11:36 AM
Not sure I listened before to the Kondrashin/Dresden account of the Op.43 . . . anyone else feel that he rushes the second movement? (Moderato, con moto)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: amw on April 29, 2014, 03:34:36 AM
Quote from: Beale on July 19, 2012, 04:58:10 AM
Ok, a question about the fifth symphony to stay on topic.

Reading the Classicstoday.com reviews, it appears there are two ways for a conductor to approach the finale. Victor Carr Jr wrote this about Lorin Maazel and the Cleveland Orchestra: "Maazel's finale builds to an excitingly affirmative conclusion–the kind prevalent before the revisionist "ironic" ending popularized by Rostropovich".

Now compare David Hurwitz on Yakov Kreizberg and Russian National Orchestra: "Kreizberg, like Sanderling, is absolutely convinced that the finale does not represent a "happy" ending."

So what do you prefer?

Replying to a 2 year old post!

I found a couple of approaches I like—the really slow endings can have a sort of apocalyptic gravitas or a sort of parodic excess, depending on (oddly enough) how those repeated As in the violins are articulated. This is the Ashkenazy, Rostropovich, Sanderling kind of thing. They do tend to play the Allegro non troppo a bit faster, which makes it sort of exciting (esp Sanderling), whereas Ashkenazy errs more on the "apocalyptic" side of things.

On the other hand there is Wigglesworth who takes the last movement quite slowly (esp at first)—which actually is supported by Shostakovich's metronome marks, which are not that fast (starting at quarter = 88, I think... don't have a score to hand... accelerating to quarter = 120 as the main theme progresses, a bit further to something like quarter = 144 at one point, but then all the note values get halved so it's effectively even slower than the beginning...)—making it almost disappear in the middle. He maintains the slow tempo when the theme comes back and starts building up (I think this is counter to Mitya's metronome marks actually)... does the required allargando into the coda... then just goes back to the original tempo and plays the coda in strict metronomic time without even the slightest rit. at the end. The overall effect is quite mechanistic, somewhat reminiscent of the "invasion" theme in the 7th.

The only others I've heard are Stokowski and Bernstein which I didn't like as much. In general I find I don't care so much whether the coda is taken fast or slow, as whether the tempo is broadened for the last two bars or not (i.e. the timpani/bass drum solo). If it is, I seem to find the performance less satisfying.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on April 29, 2014, 03:59:27 AM
So long as it is done convincingly, I can take that coda either slow or fast.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on May 01, 2014, 09:44:17 AM
It's time to put together a list of complete DSCH Symphony cycles...

and any help and input to complete the list (not all at once; I've only jotted down the obvious ones so far... without dates and such) here would be much appreciated.

Shostakovich Cycles


R.Barshai / WDR SO
Brilliant

B.Haitink / RCO & LPO
(London Phil.  1-4, 7, 9, 10 and 15
Concertgebous 5,6,8 ,11-14)
Decca

M.Shostakovich / Prague SO

M.Rostropovich /

Y.Mravinsky / Leningrad PO
(incomplete)

K.Kondrashin / Moscow PO
Melodiya et al.

V.Petrenko / R.Liverpool PO

M.Jansons / Various
EMI
(BRSO, BPh, LPO, Oslo Phil, Pittsburgh SO,

M.Wigglesworth / Netherlands RPO, BBC NO Wales
BIS

V.Ashekenazy / Royal Phil., St.Petersburg PO, NHK SO
Decca

Various Conductors / RNO
Pentatone
(Vladimir Jurowski 1, 6 | P.Berglund 8 | M.Pletnev 11, 15 | Y.Kreizberg 5, 9... has that been all, to-date? 5 releases, 7 symphonies? Huh, seemed like there was more already)


V.Gergiev / Mariinsky O.
Mariinsky Live

D.Kitayenko / Gürzenich O.
Capriccio

DG Mixed Cycle
(Bernstein, Chung, Järvi, Karajan, Previn, Rostropovich)

L.Slovak / Yablonski
Czech RSO
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 01, 2014, 10:36:26 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 01, 2014, 09:44:17 AM
M.Wigglesworth / Netherlands RPO
BIS

Actually there's a bit of a split with this cycle. Five of the symphonies (the first to be recorded, IIRC) were recorded with the BBC National Orchestra of Wales. I have nos. 5, 6, & 10 with this orchestra and love them.


Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: kishnevi on May 01, 2014, 09:33:02 PM
Has Gergiev actually recorded all the symphonies (including his earlier takes with Philips/Decca)?  I do not remember seeing 12 and 13 from him.

Haitink also divvied up his cycle between two orchestras.
London Phil.  1-4, 7, 9, 10 and 15
Concertgebous 5,6,8 ,11-14
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: aukhawk on May 02, 2014, 03:27:46 AM
Caetani

and there was the old Melodiya mixed cycle - Svetlanov, Rozhdestvensky‎, Kondrashin, plus the 15th under Maxim Shostakovich, I don't know if that's available as a cycle now
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: londonrich on May 02, 2014, 03:45:24 AM
There's also the Rozhdestvensky Melodiya cycle, which looks like it's OOP now
http://www.amazon.com/Shostakovich-Symphonies-Nos-1-15-Dmitry/dp/B00004TCPW

And, if you're including incompletes, the Sanderling's a good one:
http://www.amazon.com/Symphonies-10-15-D-Shostakovich/dp/B000025R32/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1399031186&sr=1-2&keywords=sanderling+shostakovich
Maybe too incomplete?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on May 02, 2014, 04:51:30 AM
Quote from: londonrich on May 02, 2014, 03:45:24 AM
There's also the Rozhdestvensky Melodiya cycle, which looks like it's OOP now
http://www.amazon.com/Shostakovich-Symphonies-Nos-1-15-Dmitry/dp/B00004TCPW

And, if you're including incompletes, the Sanderling's a good one:
http://www.amazon.com/Symphonies-10-15-D-Shostakovich/dp/B000025R32/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1399031186&sr=1-2&keywords=sanderling+shostakovich
Maybe too incomplete?

Quote from: aukhawk on May 02, 2014, 03:27:46 AM
Caetani
and there was the old Melodiya mixed cycle - Svetlanov, Rozhdestvensky‎, Kondrashin, plus the 15th under Maxim Shostakovich, I don't know if that's available as a cycle now

Caetani, of course! I also overlooked Kofman and Inbal.

Never seen the mixed Melodiya cycle... interesting, especially with that semi mythic Maxim 15th.

And yes, Rozhdestvensky‎ was outside my perimeter, too... now that there's more action from Melodiya, re-issue-wise, we might hope to see that re-issued.

If I include the Pentatone, which is slimmer than I thought (but might well be continued), I would *have* to include Sanderling. Incomplete though it is, I think extremely highly of it... and since it's not like with Beethoven Sonata Cycles, where there are more than you could shake a stick at, it strikes me as prudent to make liberal exceptions.

Quote from: jlaurson on May 01, 2014, 09:44:17 AM
It's time to put together a list of complete DSCH Symphony cycles...

and any help and input to complete the list (not all at once; I've only jotted down the obvious ones so far... without dates and such) here would be much appreciated.

Shostakovich Cycles

R.Barshai / WDR SO
Brilliant, 11 CDs

B.Haitink / RCO, LPO
Decca, 11 CDs   

M.Shostakovich / Prague SO
Supraphon 10 CDs

M.Rostropovich / NSO, LSO, Academic SO Moscow
Warner, 12 CDs

Y.Mravinsky / Leningrad PO
(incomplete)

K.Kondrashin / Moscow PO
Melodiya, 11 CDs , Aulos 10 CDs.

V.Petrenko / R.Liverpool PO

M.Jansons / Various
EMI - Warner
(BRSO, BPh, LPO, Oslo PO, Pittsburgh SO, WPh, Philadelphia, St.Peterburg PO.)

M.Wigglesworth / Netherlands RPO, BBS NO Wales
BIS

V.Ashekenazy / Royal Phil., St.Petersburg PO, NHK SO
Decca, 12 CDs

Various Conductors / Vladimir Jurowski 1, 6 | P.Berglund 8 | M.Pletnev 11, 15 | Y.Kreizberg 5, 9.
Pentatone, SACD

V.Gergiev / Mariinsky O.
Mariinsky Live

D.Kitayenko / Gürzenich O.
Capriccio, 12 SACDs

DG Mixed Cycle Collector's Edition
(Bernstein, Chung, Järvi, Karajan, Previn, Rostropovich)

L.Slovak / Czech RSO
Naxos

O. Caetani /  Giuseppe Verdi SO Milan
Arts, 10 SACDs

R.Kofman / Beethoven Orchester Bonn
M|DG 11 SACDs

G.Rozhdestvensky / Leningrad PO, Moscow PO, USSR Ministry of Culture SO
Melodiya, 14 CDs

E.Inbal / WSO
Denon, 11 CDs

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise 4,13,14,15
Post by: snyprrr on May 26, 2014, 09:00:51 AM
Thread Virgin

I have come around to looking into (1)4,(13)14, and 15. Only those three (five). I know! :laugh: It's the Shosty Thread, after all!! ;) :P


So, I was doing some research. No.1? Karl? Anyone? Am I reeeally interested in this? I had Jarvi/Chandos at one time (with my fav 6), but,... is... No.1 swept away by

No.4

I had this with Jarvi/Chandos, but I wasn't ready for the music. I wanted more of the 5th- melodic blah blah. Now I just want a SuperSymphony- kitchen sink (also thinking of Schnittke 1)- and I HEEEAR that No.4 is the way to go. Looking, we find- surprisesurprise Chung!!(DG)- I mean, who wouldn't be forgiven for a double-take on that one? What say?

Then, Jansons seems to get all-around high marks, though sometimes people are fighting over him and Rattle (both EMI).

Some even liked Rostropovitch(Teldec). I WOULD need confirmation on this one, hrrr,hmm. ::) Surely the Teldec sound is a winner?

I can't remember if I saw a Salonen (DG?)... anyhow, apparently there's a gaggle of modern 4ths- though- some say Jarvi still reigns supreme...

WAIT! Is there a Slatkin?

And, wasn't there...


Nos.13-14

Anyone have that Virgin 14th?

I used to have Haitink in both, thought they were fine at the time (I think I still have 13 in a closet somewhere...)... 13 I'm clueless about... 14 I just want the BEST SINGING- none of the bass singers' samples have turned my bowels to water yet.

There's a 14 where the conductor directs to play with no vibrato? Still, the singing here- I want MORE!

I want to hear dirt and gravel married with perfection and easy for singer-haters to love.


15

This one's the one I'm really curious about. Again, had Haitink back in the day- fine as I recall- I want it all here. I hear Great things about Jansons here- though Sanderling/Berlin gets the EAPoe award with Sanderling/Erato not far behind. Then, some still prefer,... wait?... is Ormandy a 15 or a 4??

This Petrenko guy- wazzup? Some say he's got quite a way with certain pieces. But, I'm looking for that EMI, Virgin, Philips, (sometimes) Erato, Teldec sound- you know you know- and I just know that the Naxos sound, though fine, doesn't normally give that Thing- y'know?

I'm totally forgetting a lot of interesting one-offs I saw last night. I was really surprised at the state of the Shostakovitch Symphony Discography. Chung, especially, was a surprise, and Slatkin (though, I'd seen and dismissed a lot of these during my 'Dismiss DSCH' Phase).

So, can ya help a bruutha out with (1) 4 (13) 14 & 15?


Oh- forgot Jarvi (DG) has a 2CD 13-15. Expensive though...


Oh- and Jansons for 2 & 12?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on May 26, 2014, 09:36:34 AM
Previn is also vg in No. 4 (EMI) and 8 (EMI).
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: NJ Joe on May 26, 2014, 10:02:56 AM
I like Ormandy in both 1 and 15.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on May 26, 2014, 10:16:30 AM
Just read through WHOLE THREAD!! >:DNOT VERY HELPFUL!! >:D

1) Karl's been good

2) Sarge, you want Jarvi in the 6th. Just do it...

3) gaaah- so much blather

Not one mention of Ashkenazy No.5. No mention of this, that, or the other thing. COME ON guys!! It seems only Karl took his role seriously. Ugh, so much wanking going on in here you need a mop!! :P

Already my Post is buried. ugh :(
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on May 26, 2014, 11:08:07 AM
Just bought the Janson's box dirt cheap (£14) and will report back.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on May 26, 2014, 11:22:35 AM
Symphony No.13




Kondrashin MPO (various;1963?)"girl hiding face"cover?
Ormandy (-)
Muti (Memories;1970)





Rozhdesventsky (various;1985)'speaking'
                                                                                                                                                                                        Kamu (Chandos;1987)

                                                                                                   Previn (EMI-AAD;1980)
Haitink (Decca;1984)             

                                                                                                                                                                                     Rostropovitch (Teldec;1989)   
                                                                                                                                                                                   Masur (Teldec;1994) Lieferkus
                                                                                                                                                                                       Solti (Decca) Aleksashkin
Inbal (Denon)                                                                      M.Shostakovitch (Supraphon;1995)
                                                                                                                                                                                       Jarvi (DG;1996) Lieferkus
                                                                                                                                                                                       Polyansky (Chandos;1999)

                                                                                                                                                                                       Shallon (Koch;1994)               
                                                                                                 Slovak (Naxos;1994)
                                                                                              Sondeckis (SONY;1996)


Sinaisky (BBCProms-'live';2000) Lieferkus

Jansons (EMI;2006) Aleksashkin
Temirkanov (RCA;2007) Aleksashkin
Barshai (Brilliant;2008) Aleksashkin
Fedosseyev (Relief-'live';2006) Aleksashkin 'live'

                                                                                           Caetani (Arts;2007)SACD
                                                                                           Kofman (MDG;2005)SACD

                                                                                                                                                                               Schwarz (Avie;2003)
                                                                                              Wigglesworth (BIS;2006)
                                                                                                                                                                         Ashkenazy (Decca;2007)





Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise 4,13,14,15
Post by: snyprrr on May 26, 2014, 11:23:13 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 26, 2014, 09:00:51 AM
Thread Virgin

I have come around to looking into (1)4,(13)14, and 15. Only those three (five). I know! :laugh: It's the Shosty Thread, after all!! ;) :P


So, I was doing some research. No.1? Karl? Anyone? Am I reeeally interested in this? I had Jarvi/Chandos at one time (with my fav 6), but,... is... No.1 swept away by

No.4

I had this with Jarvi/Chandos, but I wasn't ready for the music. I wanted more of the 5th- melodic blah blah. Now I just want a SuperSymphony- kitchen sink (also thinking of Schnittke 1)- and I HEEEAR that No.4 is the way to go. Looking, we find- surprisesurprise Chung!!(DG)- I mean, who wouldn't be forgiven for a double-take on that one? What say?

Then, Jansons seems to get all-around high marks, though sometimes people are fighting over him and Rattle (both EMI).

Some even liked Rostropovitch(Teldec). I WOULD need confirmation on this one, hrrr,hmm. ::) Surely the Teldec sound is a winner?

I can't remember if I saw a Salonen (DG?)... anyhow, apparently there's a gaggle of modern 4ths- though- some say Jarvi still reigns supreme...

WAIT! Is there a Slatkin?

And, wasn't there...


Nos.13-14

Anyone have that Virgin 14th?

I used to have Haitink in both, thought they were fine at the time (I think I still have 13 in a closet somewhere...)... 13 I'm clueless about... 14 I just want the BEST SINGING- none of the bass singers' samples have turned my bowels to water yet.

There's a 14 where the conductor directs to play with no vibrato? Still, the singing here- I want MORE!

I want to hear dirt and gravel married with perfection and easy for singer-haters to love.


15

This one's the one I'm really curious about. Again, had Haitink back in the day- fine as I recall- I want it all here. I hear Great things about Jansons here- though Sanderling/Berlin gets the EAPoe award with Sanderling/Erato not far behind. Then, some still prefer,... wait?... is Ormandy a 15 or a 4??

This Petrenko guy- wazzup? Some say he's got quite a way with certain pieces. But, I'm looking for that EMI, Virgin, Philips, (sometimes) Erato, Teldec sound- you know you know- and I just know that the Naxos sound, though fine, doesn't normally give that Thing- y'know?

I'm totally forgetting a lot of interesting one-offs I saw last night. I was really surprised at the state of the Shostakovitch Symphony Discography. Chung, especially, was a surprise, and Slatkin (though, I'd seen and dismissed a lot of these during my 'Dismiss DSCH' Phase).

So, can ya help a bruutha out with (1) 4 (13) 14 & 15?


Oh- forgot Jarvi (DG) has a 2CD 13-15. Expensive though...


Oh- and Jansons for 2 & 12?

tap tap tap
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise 4,13,14,15
Post by: Brahmsian on May 26, 2014, 11:46:42 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 26, 2014, 11:23:13 AM
tap tap tap

For the 4th, I like Petrenko/Royal Liverpool an Ormandy/Philadephia.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 26, 2014, 12:00:54 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 26, 2014, 11:23:13 AM
tap tap tap



4 - ROZHDESTVENSKY/USSR MofC SO

4 - RATTLE/CBSO

14 - ROSTROPOVICH/ACADEMIC SO MOSCOW with VISHNEVSKAYA/RESHETIN

14 - CURRENTZIS/MUSIC AETERNA with KORPACHEVA/MIGUNOV

15 -  KONDRASHIN/MOSCOW PHIL

15 - SANDERLING/CLEVELAND

15 - ROZHDESTVENSKY/USSR MofC SO

From the Gramophone's Shosty 15th death match (their four picks: Haitink, M.Shostakovich, Lopez-Cobos, Rozh):

THE RUSSIAN MASTER
USSR Ministry of Culture SO / Gennadi Rozhdestvensky Melodiya
This is the most satisfying and characterful of the first-generation Russian performances. A demented first movement and chilling second movement are the highlights of a thoughtful performance that's well aware of its own eccentricities.


And Karl might agree with this (he's the only one I know who owns Maxim's cycle):

THE FIRST CHOICE
Prague Symphony Orchestra / Maxim Shostakovich Supraphon
After 35 years of trying, Shostakovich Jr finally gets it spectacularly right. Cogent but not obvious tempi allow his father's material to speak eloquently, while Shostakovich coaxes a sensitive and charismatic response from the Prague SO.



Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on May 26, 2014, 12:21:25 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 26, 2014, 12:00:54 PM
And Karl might agree with this (he's the only one I know who owns Maxim's cycle):

THE FIRST CHOICE
Prague Symphony Orchestra / Maxim Shostakovich Supraphon
After 35 years of trying, Shostakovich Jr finally gets it spectacularly right. Cogent but not obvious tempi allow his father's material to speak eloquently, while Shostakovich coaxes a sensitive and charismatic response from the Prague SO.



Sarge

Hm, the Fifteenth, right?  Pretty much agree, sure do like Maksim Dmitriyevich there.  The very best?  Maybe.  The Sanderling/Cleveland and López-Cobos/Cinci are excellent, too.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Mirror Image on May 26, 2014, 01:03:00 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 26, 2014, 12:21:25 PM
Hm, the Fifteenth, right?  Pretty much agree, sure do like Maksim Dmitriyevich there.  The very best?  Maybe.  The Sanderling/Cleveland and López-Cobos/Cinci are excellent, too.

You should definitely check out Kondrashin/Dresden, Karl. This is one of the most blistering performances I've heard of the 15th.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on May 26, 2014, 04:35:59 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 26, 2014, 12:00:54 PM


4 - ROZHDESTVENSKY/USSR MofC SO

4 - RATTLE/CBSO

14 - ROSTROPOVICH/ACADEMIC SO MOSCOW with VISHNEVSKAYA/RESHETIN

14 - CURRENTZIS/MUSIC AETERNA with KORPACHEVA/MIGUNOV

15 -  KONDRASHIN/MOSCOW PHIL

15 - SANDERLING/CLEVELAND

15 - ROZHDESTVENSKY/USSR MofC SO

From the Gramophone's Shosty 15th death match (their four picks: Haitink, M.Shostakovich, Lopez-Cobos, Rozh):

THE RUSSIAN MASTER
USSR Ministry of Culture SO / Gennadi Rozhdestvensky Melodiya
This is the most satisfying and characterful of the first-generation Russian performances. A demented first movement and chilling second movement are the highlights of a thoughtful performance that's well aware of its own eccentricities.


And Karl might agree with this (he's the only one I know who owns Maxim's cycle):

THE FIRST CHOICE
Prague Symphony Orchestra / Maxim Shostakovich Supraphon
After 35 years of trying, Shostakovich Jr finally gets it spectacularly right. Cogent but not obvious tempi allow his father's material to speak eloquently, while Shostakovich coaxes a sensitive and charismatic response from the Prague SO.



Sarge

hey thanks!

So, they like Rattle over Jansons in 4? Interesting

Sanderling/Cleveland seems to be the Grail

Am I really to trust those singers in 14? I get scurred easily here...


Quote from: ChamberNut on May 26, 2014, 11:46:42 AM
For the 4th, I like Petrenko/Royal Liverpool an Ormandy/Philadephia.

First vote for Petrenko 4th


Quote from: karlhenning on May 26, 2014, 12:21:25 PM
Hm, the Fifteenth, right?  Pretty much agree, sure do like Maksim Dmitriyevich there.  The very best?  Maybe.  The Sanderling/Cleveland and López-Cobos/Cinci are excellent, too.

I'm getting ferverish. :PDoes my tongue look green to you?

I read the whole Thread today, and I've looked over the Discographies of 4,13,14,15 (1,9)- that I'm just overloaded with choices and confused. You mean MaXim/Supraphon when you say Maksim?- here we must speak the language of the CD cover/Amazon profile if we are to be clear- there's too many Maxkhims to keep them straight.

So,  I'm really wanting to hear about the ones no one's talking about. Chung, for instance... I'm like a junkie right now and I need some GOOD STUFF- what's that DSCH site where they review every disc quickly?

There are literally NO REVIEWS for a lot of these records- or really lame one-liners- -- we can all HEAR the MUSIC later- what we need NOW is deep comparative analysis!! I USED to be the kind of person who would take it upon myself to BuyItNow! all of these and do the work- I just caaan't :'(. But when I see one-off conductors record some odd/cool DSCH, I pee my pants. :-[ I neeeed to know, but can't count on it.

Why can't one of you catch this bug I've got and go out and Manchurian this one for me? :laugh:

I'll just be back later with timings for all issues involved- in a flow chart so we can all see plainly what the deal is. ::)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on May 26, 2014, 04:44:22 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 01, 2014, 09:44:17 AM
It's time to put together a list of complete DSCH Symphony cycles...

and any help and input to complete the list (not all at once; I've only jotted down the obvious ones so far... without dates and such) here would be much appreciated.

Shostakovich Cycles


R.Barshai / WDR SO
Brilliant

B.Haitink / RCO & LPO
(London Phil.  1-4, 7, 9, 10 and 15
Concertgebous 5,6,8 ,11-14)
Decca

M.Shostakovich / Prague SO

M.Rostropovich /

Y.Mravinsky / Leningrad PO
(incomplete)

K.Kondrashin / Moscow PO
Melodiya et al.

V.Petrenko / R.Liverpool PO

M.Jansons / Various
EMI
(BRSO, BPh, LPO, Oslo Phil, Pittsburgh SO,

M.Wigglesworth / Netherlands RPO, BBC NO Wales
BIS

V.Ashekenazy / Royal Phil., St.Petersburg PO, NHK SO
Decca

Various Conductors / RNO
Pentatone
(Vladimir Jurowski 1, 6 | P.Berglund 8 | M.Pletnev 11, 15 | Y.Kreizberg 5, 9... has that been all, to-date? 5 releases, 7 symphonies? Huh, seemed like there was more already)


V.Gergiev / Mariinsky O.
Mariinsky Live

D.Kitayenko / Gürzenich O.
Capriccio

DG Mixed Cycle
(Bernstein, Chung, Järvi, Karajan, Previn, Rostropovich)

L.Slovak / Yablonski
Czech RSO

I'd love to hear your thoughts on 13 14 15 and maybe 4

I must say, after reading the Whole Thread, it doesn't seem like many GMGrs have very many oddball choices. Everyone has Barshai or Jansons... one of the oldies ,Rohdz-Mrav-Kondr... maybe a Naxos...

but, people seem content once their tastes have been slaked. Am I wrong? I'd looove to just splurge on 30 used CDs just to settle the dust in my attic- I mean,... am I having a relapse??? :o ??? :o

Have anything to say about Chung... or Salonen... or Slatkin... or any other oddball?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Ken B on May 26, 2014, 05:30:41 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 26, 2014, 04:44:22 PM
I'd love to hear your thoughts on 13 14 15 and maybe 4

I must say, after reading the Whole Thread, it doesn't seem like many GMGrs have very many oddball choices. Everyone has Barshai or Jansons... one of the oldies ,Rohdz-Mrav-Kondr... maybe a Naxos...

but, people seem content once their tastes have been slaked. Am I wrong? I'd looove to just splurge on 30 used CDs just to settle the dust in my attic- I mean,... am I having a relapse??? :o ??? :o

Have anything to say about Chung... or Salonen... or Slatkin... or any other oddball?

You should wander over to the Haydn symphony comparison thread ...
>:D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on May 26, 2014, 05:51:56 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 26, 2014, 11:22:35 AM
Symphony No.13



Kondrashin MPO (various;1963?)
Ormandy (-)
Muti (Memories;1970)


Rozhdesventsky (various;1985)
Kamu (Chandos;1987)

Previn (EMI-AAD;1980)
Haitink (Decca;1984)

Rostropovitch (Teldec;1989)   
Masur (Teldec;1994)
Solti (Decca)
Inbal (Denon)                          M.Shostakovitch (Supraphon;1995)
Jarvi (DG;1996)
Polyansky (Chandos;1999)

Shallon (Koch;1994)                Slovak (Naxos;1994)
Sondeckis (SONY;1996)


Sinaisky (BBCProms-'live';2000)


Jansons (EMI;2006)
Kofman (MDG;2006)
Temirkanov (RCA;2007)

Barshai (Brilliant;2008)
Fedosseyev (Relief-'live';2006)
Caetani (Arts;2007)
Schwarz (Avie;2003)
Wigglesworth (BIS;2006)
Ashkenazy (Decca;2007)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on May 26, 2014, 06:37:23 PM
Symphony 14



Kondrashin
Ormandy
Barshai****
Britten (1973)
Rostropovitch (Melodiya/Teldec Box?;1973)
Bernstein (SONY;1976)***

Kegel (Weitblick)

Rozhdestvensky (Melodiya;1984)


Haitink (Decca)****
Inbal (Denon)**

Lazarev (Virgin;1991)
Turovsky (Chandos;1992)***
Jarvi (DG;1993)
Chung (Koch-Schwann;1994)

Liberman (Utrecht Conservatory;1994)
Slovak (Naxos;1994)
Hayrabedian (Opus111;1996)
Swensen (Ondine;1996)
Wigglesworth (BIS;2001)**
Kremer (ECM;2004/7)


Jansons (EMI;2006)***
Rattle (EMI-'live';2006)
Kofman (MDG;2008)
Caetani (Arts;2006)**
Ashkenazy (Decca;2007)

Barshai (Brilliant;200*)
Currentzis (Alpha;2010)*****
Petrenko (Naxos;2014)****
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on May 26, 2014, 07:08:26 PM
Symphony No.15



M.Shostakovitch
Mravinsky
Ormandy
Kondrashin (1974)

Rozhdestvensky (Melodiya;1983)
Haitink (Decca;1979)****

Jarvi (DG;1989)
Ashkenazy (Decca;1992)
M.Shostakovitch (Collins;1993)
Sanderling (Erato;1993)*****
Sanderling (Berlin;1995)*****
Rostropovitch (Teldec;1992)
Solti (Decca)
Dutoit (Decca)!
Jansons (EMI;1998)****

Slovak (Naxos;1994)
Polyansky (Chandos;1997)
Rostropovitch (Alliance'live'?;1998)         M.Shostakovitch (Supraphon;1995)*****
Fedosseyev (Canton;1997)
Barshai (Brilliant;1998)
Weigle (ArsMusici;1999)

Lopez-Cobos (Telarc;2001)****

Sanderling (Avex;2004)
Sinaisky (BBCLive;2006)
Jordania (Angelok;2005)

Caetani (Arts;2006)
Kofman (MDG;2008)
Pletnev (Pentatone;2009)
Gergiev (Mariinsky;2009)
Boryeko (Hanssler;2012)
Haitink (RCOLive;2012)
Petrenko (Naxos;2012)
Wigglesworth (BIS;2014)
Darlington (Acousense-'live'?;2012)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on May 27, 2014, 01:28:51 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 26, 2014, 04:44:22 PM
I'd love to hear your thoughts on 13 14 15 and maybe 4


4: Jansons. http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/04/mariss-jansonss-dsch-4.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/04/mariss-jansonss-dsch-4.html)
Dark horse: Raiskin

13: Kurt Masur / New York (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000SJ6/goodmusicguide-20)

15: Kondrashin / Dresden http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/01/dip-your-ears-no-88.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/01/dip-your-ears-no-88.html)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 27, 2014, 03:38:27 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 26, 2014, 04:35:59 PM
hey thanks!

So, they like Rattle over Jansons in 4? Interesting

Sanderling/Cleveland seems to be the Grail

Am I really to trust those singers in 14? I get scurred easily here...

The list I posted included my personal choices for 4, 14 and 15, but yes, Gramophone picked Rattle along with Barshai, Rozhdestvensky and the first Kondrashin for the Fourth.

Sanderling/Cleveland the Grail? It is for me. In fact I bought a second copy just to have a backup. But there are other Fifthteens I like too: Kondrashin (the anti-Sanderling), Haitink, Rozhdestvensky. But realize Sanderling has detractors, too, those who dislike his slow tempos. He's six or seven minutes slower than Rozh, Kond/Moscow and Barshai in the final movement:


Sanderling/Cleveland                 8:43  16:20  5:07  20:21
Sanderling/Berlin                      8:29  15:21  5:06  19:41
Caetani/SinfMilano                    8:28  14:28  4:15  19:04 18:11
Jansons/LPO                            8:20  17:08  3:59  16:40
Barshai/WDR SO                      8:19  11:43  3:53  13:58
Rostropovich/LSO                    8:13  16:17  5:40  15:56
Haitink/Concertgebouw             8:05  16:25  4:12  16:57
Kitajenko/Gürzenich                 7:58  16:01  4:34  16:59
Rozhdestvensky/USSR MOC      7:46  16:23  4:33  14:20
Kondrashin/Moscow                  7:02  13:43  4:25  15:06
Kondrashin/Dresden                 7:00  13:56  4:20  17:10


There's no way I can know if the singers in the Rostropovich and Currentzis 14th will scare you away. Both basses sound fine to me. You can't get more authentic than Vishnevskaya but Korpacheva has the more pleasing voice, if smaller.


Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on May 27, 2014, 04:04:05 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 27, 2014, 01:28:51 AM
4: Jansons. http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/04/mariss-jansonss-dsch-4.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/04/mariss-jansonss-dsch-4.html)
Dark horse: Raiskin

13: Kurt Masur / New York (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000SJ6/goodmusicguide-20)

Both excellent.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: amw on May 27, 2014, 04:06:57 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 27, 2014, 03:38:27 AM
Sanderling/Cleveland                 [...] 20:21
Listening to this out of curiosity. I like how the basses in the passacaglia theme are clearly audible. Hearing the symphony live with Alexander Lazarev & the NZSO a few days ago they were quite difficult to hear, which threw me off a little. ("Why are we just listening to some timpani and viola wobbles?")
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 27, 2014, 04:17:57 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 26, 2014, 04:44:22 PM
I must say, after reading the Whole Thread, it doesn't seem like many GMGrs have very many oddball choices. Everyone has Barshai or Jansons... one of the oldies ,Rohdz-Mrav-Kondr...

There's a reason for that. A Shosty symphony collection must include at least one of the "Soviet" cycles (by Soviet I mean any conductor who was trained in Russia during the Cold War). So yes, most here have sprung for Kondrashin (if they have the means) or Barshai (the choice for those on a budget) or Jansons (the new kid on the block and a solid cycle, with superior sonics relative to Kond and Rozh). I have Barshai, Rozh, Jansons, Rostropovich, Kitajenko, Sanderling (his partial cycle) and parts of Caetani (son of Markevitch and student of Kondrashin). Kondrashin is the least appealing to me: too manic, in general, with the poorest sound, so I don't have his complete cycle..but I do like his Dresden 4 and Moscow 15. I have nothing of Maxim's Supraphon set but I keep dreaming about it.

I don't know why you are so fixated on the "oddball" choices before you've thoroughly explored the Soviets. I guess you're just being snyprrr  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on May 27, 2014, 04:21:19 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 27, 2014, 04:17:57 AM
. . . I have nothing of Maxim's Supraphon set but I keep dreaming about it.

The day will come! 8)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: londonrich on May 27, 2014, 04:24:36 AM
I like the Kitajenko 15th - although I may be in a minority of one for that, as I don't see it often touted. The Rozhdestvensky is very good too, although if we're talking about the 80s Melodiya cycle, the sound quality is somewhat eccentric. To my ears, it sounds like Melodiya put one microphone in the room next door, while a sound engineer ran around the orchestra with the other microphone, sticking it under the nose of any performer he thought was going to do something interesting.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 27, 2014, 04:25:08 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 27, 2014, 04:21:19 AM
The day will come! 8)

There's a used set at Amazon DE with an asking price of €50...hmmmm....

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 27, 2014, 04:32:13 AM
Quote from: londonrich on May 27, 2014, 04:24:36 AM
I like the Kitajenko 15th - although I may be in a minority of one for that, as I don't see it often touted. The Rozhdestvensky is very good too, although if we're talking about the 80s Melodiya cycle, the sound quality is somewhat eccentric. To my ears, it sounds like Melodiya put one microphone in the room next door, while a sound engineer ran around the orchestra with the other microphone, sticking it under the nose of any performer he thought was going to do something interesting.

Kitajenko's cycle has superb sound. I put that on just to wallow in the sonic waves  8)  You're right about the bizzare sound his engineers gave Rozh but it's never gotten in the way of my appreciation for his interpertations.

Sarge 
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 27, 2014, 05:54:25 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 26, 2014, 04:44:22 PM
Have anything to say about Chung... or Salonen... or Slatkin... or any other oddball?

From the Gramophone's Fourth death match:

Myung-Whun Chung. His brisk opening allegro is hardly 'poco moderato', and balance often goes badly awry. Conversely, the third theme is too measured, momentum tailing off as the development approaches.The second movement is better integrated, but the pulse is too rapid for its harmonic astringency fully to register. The Finale builds to a powerful initial climax, but the divertissement has too little wit. The peroration is recklessly garbled, while the coda has little latent catastrophe. The sound is opulent, but the score's dynamic extremes are not held in sharp enough focus. Fans of the Phildelphia Orchestra should certainly opt for the more characterful Ormandy.


Leonard Slatkin launches the first movement with crisp precision. As with Previn, the voltage remains low, despite an agile dash to the development's apex. The reprise is limp to the point of torpor, with little ominous import, while the second movement is too casual for its anxiety to hit home. The finale opens in strangely songful intimacy and proceeds through an effortful allegro, then a divertissement which recalls the Warner Brothers' cartoon composer Carl Stalling. The peroration leaves a forceful impression that the phlegmatic close dissipates. The Saint Louis Symphony's attentive playing and the detailed if soft-focus sound fail to rescue Slatkin's interpretation.



I don't own those two so I can't confirm or deny that critic's opinion.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on May 27, 2014, 06:22:33 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 26, 2014, 09:00:51 AM
So, I was doing some research. No.1? Karl? Anyone? Am I reeeally interested in this?

Well, it deserves its place in the rep (i.e., he wrote it when yet a student, but it is not a "student work").

The López-Cobos/Cinci disc may be the thing (or one thing);  very good accounts of both the Fifteenth and First.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on May 27, 2014, 06:28:01 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 26, 2014, 09:36:34 AM
Previn is also vg in No. 4 (EMI) [...]

With the Chicago Symphony;  a wonderful listen, the band in great form;  a good go, though not in my first tier.

Another fine account is the Haitink/CSO recording on the orchestra's own Resound label. I have to give both Bennie the edge over Previn (the band, though, sand great in both);  and Bennie's CSO recording the edge over his Concertgebouworkest recording.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on May 27, 2014, 06:29:08 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 27, 2014, 05:54:25 AM
From the Gramophone's Fourth death match:

Myung-Whun Chung. His brisk opening allegro is hardly 'poco moderato', and balance often goes badly awry. Conversely, the third theme is too measured, momentum tailing off as the development approaches.The second movement is better integrated, but the pulse is too rapid for its harmonic astringency fully to register. The Finale builds to a powerful initial climax, but the divertissement has too little wit. The peroration is recklessly garbled, while the coda has little latent catastrophe. The sound is opulent, but the score's dynamic extremes are not held in sharp enough focus. Fans of the Phildelphia Orchestra should certainly opt for the more characterful Ormandy.


Leonard Slatkin launches the first movement with crisp precision. As with Previn, the voltage remains low, despite an agile dash to the development's apex. The reprise is limp to the point of torpor, with little ominous import, while the second movement is too casual for its anxiety to hit home. The finale opens in strangely songful intimacy and proceeds through an effortful allegro, then a divertissement which recalls the Warner Brothers' cartoon composer Carl Stalling. The peroration leaves a forceful impression that the phlegmatic close dissipates. The Saint Louis Symphony's attentive playing and the detailed if soft-focus sound fail to rescue Slatkin's interpretation.



I don't own those two so I can't confirm or deny that critic's opinion.

Sarge

...the fluctuations of the permutations of astringency...


Yea! OK then!! haha :laugh:


After hours of sampling last night (14) I must say that the Currentzis was the absolute best all-around I heard. I liked Jansons bass, but, ack, that soprano- yukk. Many of the other singers just didn't have that ommph I needed. Petrenko's singers pleased me. Wigglesworth seemed receded. Rattle with Quasthof?

Whaddaya think of those Discographies I Posted? That's quite a wade-through.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on May 27, 2014, 06:38:21 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 27, 2014, 06:29:08 AM
After hours of sampling last night (14) I must say that the Currentzis was the absolute best all-around I heard.

I've heard that one warmly praised, and I must give it a go someday.

And My Man in Lisbon endorses the Petrenko . . . another one I must listen to!

This one is terrific:

[asin]B000TLPW4E[/asin]
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on May 27, 2014, 06:51:38 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 27, 2014, 04:17:57 AM

I don't know why you are so fixated on the "oddball" choices before you've thoroughly explored the Soviets. I guess you're just being snyprrr  ;D

Sarge

It's just that when I see issues by Polyansky, or Kamu, or Turovsky, etc.,... I ask, Why aren't these just as good, or not, as the others? Maybe they came out in the same month as a heavy hitter and weren't afforded any attention. What of Lazarev's 14th on Virgin? No word, no review... that's just the kind of thing that sets me a'hunting (which,- I just can't afford at the moment).

I just thought there would be someone more neurotic and anal than me about this- with the checkbook to back it up! :laugh: I just want to lay the DSCH Discography to rest- it's thorny and needs trimming!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on May 27, 2014, 06:59:03 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 27, 2014, 06:38:21 AM
I've heard that one warmly praised, and I must give it a go someday.

And My Man in Lisbon endorses the Petrenko . . . another one I must listen to!

This one is terrific:

[asin]B000TLPW4E[/asin]

Again, sampling, found the soprano not to my liking. :( Whhhhy can't they sing normal? :'(

Maybe I don't care whatever "Russian" is or is not supposed to be. I just want perfect voice, tone, blah. I will not stand for "Classical" singing here. garrumph-

Slava's wife??? are you kidding me???? the shrillmeister???? Eliz. Sodershrill???? NOOOOOO!!


Anyhow- yes, the Petrenko singers didn't give me the hives.

Again- that's why I'd be interested in "odd ball" choices like the Lazarev/Virgin 14th. Who knows? Maybe the singers there are spectacular?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Brahmsian on May 27, 2014, 07:06:03 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 27, 2014, 06:38:21 AM

And My Man in Lisbon endorses the Petrenko . . . another one I must listen to!


This one recently came into my hands (Petrenko 14th).  I have it in the queue for a first listen this week.  8)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on May 27, 2014, 07:15:55 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 27, 2014, 06:59:03 AM
Again, sampling, found the soprano not to my liking. :( Whhhhy can't they sing normal? :'(

I like her;  she sings beautifully.

But I understand that there are challenges to making suggestions to you for this symphony ;)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on May 27, 2014, 07:16:37 AM
Quote from: amw on May 27, 2014, 04:06:57 AM
Listening to this out of curiosity. I like how the basses in the passacaglia theme are clearly audible. Hearing the symphony live with Alexander Lazarev & the NZSO a few days ago they were quite difficult to hear, which threw me off a little. ("Why are we just listening to some timpani and viola wobbles?")

Lazarev did the 14th for Virgin? Do you have a review of that?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on May 27, 2014, 07:23:37 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 27, 2014, 07:15:55 AM
challenges

challenges... aaalways challenges

Frankly, I think I liked Barshai's '70s recording of the 14th almost the best (except for sonics- though the auditorium IS nice). The bass singer is right up front and deep (hear on YT) and the soprano doesn't give me the shrillies. The second movement is blisteringly fast.

I was checking timings- like with the last movement of 14. The closer they get to the 1:00 mark the better for me, the closer to the 2:00 mark, eh.

Same with the bass singer's 'Response'- 1:20, ok... 2:00, too long

Same with that blazing 2nd movement: 2:00 just too long... listen to that '70s Barshai, wow!




Anyhow, as far as the sopranos go, that Currentzis soprano pleased me (if you're looking for a snyprrr gauge). Jansons' was the worst I heard (just the sample from the 2nd movemnet, yukk).


Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Brahmsian on May 27, 2014, 07:25:32 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 27, 2014, 07:23:37 AM

Anyhow, as far as the sopranos go, that Currentzis soprano pleased me (if you're looking for a snyprrr gauge).

Ahh!  One of the world's great mysteries!  8)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on May 27, 2014, 07:30:41 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 27, 2014, 07:23:37 AM
Same with that blazing 2nd movement [of the Op.135]: 2:00 just too long... listen to that '70s Barshai, wow!

That's impossible.  The Barshai I have is 2:49, and it is not in the least drowsy.  Shaving 50 seconds off that is physically impossible.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on May 27, 2014, 07:31:08 AM
Like, why wouldn't I want to get Shirley-Quirk in 13? hmm?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jochanaan on May 27, 2014, 07:34:41 AM
snyprrr, sadly, Dmitri Shostakovich himself would probably disagree with you about sopranos.  Galina and Slava were personal friends of his.  ;D

The Fourteenth I keep going back to is the '70s one by Mme. Vishnevskaya, Mark Reshetin, Rostropovich and members of the Moscow Philharmonic.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on May 27, 2014, 07:35:38 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 27, 2014, 07:30:41 AM
That's impossible.  The Barshai I have is 2:49, and it is not in the least drowsy.  Shaving 50 seconds off that is physically impossible.

Sorry, you're right. I meant, the closer you get to 2:30. The original Barshai (on YT) is just sick. I'm just saying, I heard a lot of 2nd movements that didn't invoke the devil (again, the Currentzis 2nd movement is blazing).

I've got a head full of bad timings now, haha... give me a week! ::)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on May 27, 2014, 07:39:55 AM
Quote from: jochanaan on May 27, 2014, 07:34:41 AM
snyprrr, sadly, Dmitri Shostakovich himself would probably disagree with you about sopranos.  Galina and Slava were personal friends of his.  ;D

The Fourteenth I keep going back to is the '70s one by Mme. Vishnevskaya, Mark Reshetin, Rostropovich and members of the Moscow Philharmonic.

Can I just get this straight: Is there a Barshai from the '70s, or is there a Slava from the '70s? Both? Which is the one on YT that has such a blistering 2nd movement? (and the bass singer is nice and up front and deep sounding)

Again, the Rosty 14th on Teldec is this old '70s recording and not a new one for Teldec?




And, I know all this about 'authentic' and all,... but... what?... Vishneva has never been accused o

(nevermind) ;) :laugh:

I'd rather have Linda Ronstadt :'( :laugh:
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on May 27, 2014, 07:44:48 AM
What would be sweet is if y'all'd go down to the Amazon and just check out a few samples of issues you don't have, just for that quick soundbite. I know,... I'm a dik. :-*
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on May 27, 2014, 07:47:47 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 27, 2014, 07:35:38 AM
Sorry, you're right. I meant, the closer you get to 2:30.

And on the Kremerata Baltica CD I mentioned: 2:43.  The Currentzis is 2:39 . . . so the differential could just be letting cadential chords ring a bit in the space.

You mean this Barshai?--

http://www.youtube.com/v/zooakKFzTjs

You're right, brisker, and thus more nervous.  A nice account, though I don't take it for a touchstone :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on May 27, 2014, 07:48:34 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 27, 2014, 07:44:48 AM
What would be sweet is if y'all'd go down to the Amazon and just check out a few samples of issues you don't have, just for that quick soundbite.

Well, and maybe we are . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 27, 2014, 07:52:40 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 27, 2014, 06:29:08 AM
After hours of sampling last night (14) I must say that the Currentzis was the absolute best all-around I heard.



He's my new favorite (love his soprano). But for sheer intensity, the old Slava with the "Shrillmeister" (  ;D ) is hard to beat. But yeah, I understand your objection.

Quote from: karlhenning on May 27, 2014, 06:38:21 AM
And My Man in Lisbon endorses the Petrenko . . . another one I must listen to!

Have not heard that one yet. The Hurwitzer raved about it in his 10/10 review, crowned it the reference recording along with Rostropovich.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 27, 2014, 08:02:02 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 27, 2014, 07:39:55 AM
Can I just get this straight: Is there a Barshai from the '70s, or is there a Slava from the '70s? Both? Which is the one on YT that has such a blistering 2nd movement? (and the bass singer is nice and up front and deep sounding) Again, the Rosty 14th on Teldec is this old '70s recording and not a new one for Teldec?

It would help if you gave us the link to the video. The Slava version I'm talking about is included in his cycle on the Warner label. A live recording with the Academic Symphony Orchestra Moscow with Vishnevskaya and Reshetin, Feb 1973.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 27, 2014, 08:09:23 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 27, 2014, 07:44:48 AM
What would be sweet is if y'all'd go down to the Amazon and just check out a few samples of issues you don't have, just for that quick soundbite. I know,... I'm a dik. :-*

We know you are, but we still (inexplicably) love you. Sorry, but I have little interest in shopping for more Shostakovich symphonies at this point. I already have 10 to 20 versions each (except 2 and 3).

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on May 27, 2014, 08:24:46 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 27, 2014, 08:09:23 AM
. . . I already have 10 to 20 versions each . . . .

I know it's not for want of trying that the Opp. 60 & 93 aren't clicking with you!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 27, 2014, 08:29:02 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 27, 2014, 08:24:46 AM
I know it's not for want of trying that the Opp. 60 & 93 aren't clicking with you!

Yes, I keep trying. As I just said in another thread, surely it's me, not Dmitri.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on May 27, 2014, 09:26:17 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 27, 2014, 08:02:02 AM
It would help if you gave us the link to the video. The Slava version I'm talking about is included in his cycle on the Warner label. A live recording with the Academic Symphony Orchestra Moscow with Vishnevskaya and Reshetin, Feb 1973.

Sarge

Karl Posted the Barshai from the '70s I was talking about. Maybe in confusion I got it mixed with this Rosty '73... sooo, all the Rosty recs. are 'modern' except for this old '73 14th? There ARE two different performances from around the same era. ok. check. roger. out.

wheeeew! :laugh:

(hey- what else are ya gonna do on a hot afternoon?)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on May 27, 2014, 09:39:10 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 27, 2014, 07:52:40 AM


He's my new favorite (love his soprano).
Sarge

See? This is the first time someone has said, LOVE his soprano. And it's not that I needed someone to agree with me, it's just that that's what happened. So, now we seek an even better. At this point I'm hard pressed not to pick the Currentzis, even though it's more than the $2.76 I have allotted myself per dsc! :P (now you know why I harp on oddballs!!- hey, that's how I discovered that Suske LvB SQ set)

Yea, I can go from shrill if the intensity is there- like in that '73 Barshai. She sounds like a barbarian in that whippy 2nd movement, but it seems to fit.

And- can't they flippin' get a SUPER BASS to sing 13/14??? I mean Orthodox Bass. The Currentzis guy is ok,... the Haitink guy was ok,... the Petrenko sounds ok.... but (actually, the bass in that 'live' Barshai was the most impressive- but they also didn't hide him in the mix)

There's the two basses they use a lot. Liefrfuss(?) and the guy whose last name starts with 'A'. I thought Christopher Isherwood had a nice deep bass (Varese/Nagano), and I've heard some Russian Choral Bass, - but why can't I get a rumble in my tummy? :(

That does it- new thread time...
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on May 27, 2014, 09:43:34 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 27, 2014, 09:39:10 AM
And- can't they flippin' get a SUPER BASS to sing 13/14??? I mean Orthodox Bass. The Currentzis guy is ok,... the Haitink guy was ok,...

Is an Orthodox bass wanted for Op.135?  And apart from his Russian pronunciation . . . don't you like Fischer-Dieskau in the Haitink?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on May 27, 2014, 09:52:13 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 27, 2014, 09:43:34 AM
Is an Orthodox bass wanted for Op.135?  And apart from his Russian pronunciation . . . don't you like Fischer-Dieskau in the Haitink?

Actually, listening last night, I WANTED to be an idiot, but HAD to agree that Fischhead was 'pleasing'. Perhaps he sounded a bit higher than I would have liked, and didn't have that phlegm pit of molasses - just listen to the 'Response' movement to hear how these singers either 'get', or don't get the 'personality'. Fischhead's more of a singer here than a Total Personality,- but, yea,---

actually, the only criticism of the bass singers, in general, probably hasn't been their fault. Many of these recordings seem to recess the singers (Wigglesworth?) to the point of losing the ineffable. So, frankly, at least Fischhead's recorded well! (and yes, he's 'good' here) The 'live' Barshai was the best overall 'impact' of ANY recording- you could hear his reverb in the hall just as well as the rest (oh- duh- was that added later??).


Gaah- I feel like you're all having an intervention on me, haha!! :laugh: heavy lifting involved!!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on May 27, 2014, 09:53:08 AM
How bout we all take cocktail break and meet back here at six? $:)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: springrite on May 27, 2014, 09:53:46 AM
I like the Haitink Shosty 13!

(Cocktail obliged...)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on May 27, 2014, 09:54:49 AM
Quote from: springrite on May 27, 2014, 09:53:46 AM
I like the Haitink Shosty 13!

(Cocktail obliged…)

Yes!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on May 27, 2014, 09:55:45 AM
Quote from: springrite on May 27, 2014, 09:53:46 AM
I like the Haitink Shosty 13!

(Cocktail obliged...)

I do too, but it's the only one I've ever had... and Rintzler doesn't sound Russian! :laugh:
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on May 27, 2014, 09:56:20 AM
Again, I wonder how Shirley-Quirk fares in No.13...
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: springrite on May 27, 2014, 09:57:37 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 27, 2014, 09:56:20 AM
Again, I wonder how Shirley-Quirk fares in No.13...

I think this is the one I have. I like it (and I usually don't like guys named Shirley).
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on May 27, 2014, 09:59:00 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 27, 2014, 09:55:45 AM
I do too, but it's the only one I've ever had... and Rintzler doesn't sound Russian! :laugh:

Leiferkus with Masur is great;  as is Aleksashkin with Jansons.  What's keeping you?!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on May 27, 2014, 10:20:15 AM
Ghiuselev with Slava is good, too.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Ken B on May 27, 2014, 11:35:39 AM
Quote from: springrite on May 27, 2014, 09:57:37 AM
I think this is the one I have. I like it (and I usually don't like guys named Shirley).
That's an odd quirk.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: North Star on May 27, 2014, 01:04:57 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 27, 2014, 09:59:00 AM
Aleksashkin with Jansons.
Hear, hear!

Quote from: Ken B on May 27, 2014, 11:35:39 AM
That's an odd quirk.
I would have thought that, Shirley, you would understand.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on May 28, 2014, 06:42:44 AM
Don't call me Shirley!!
Title: Re: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles &amp; Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on May 28, 2014, 07:01:34 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 28, 2014, 06:42:44 AM
Don't call me Shirley!!

Only I know you prefer "Lulu"!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on May 28, 2014, 08:12:03 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 27, 2014, 09:39:10 AM
And- can't they flippin' get a SUPER BASS to sing 13/14???

Ryssov is great in the Op.135, and Mikuláš in the Op.113.

No idea if Marina Shaguch will serve you in the Op.135;  but I love her voice and performance.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Brahmsian on May 28, 2014, 08:17:44 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 27, 2014, 09:39:10 AM

And- can't they flippin' get a SUPER BASS to sing 13/14???

A sub-woofer, perhaps?  Or James Earl Jones?  Sam Elliott?  ;D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on May 28, 2014, 04:20:33 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 28, 2014, 08:17:44 AM
A sub-woofer, perhaps?  Or James Earl Jones?  Sam Elliott?  ;D

exxxactly!!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on May 29, 2014, 08:43:11 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 27, 2014, 03:38:27 AM
No.15

Wigglesworth/NRPO                   9:05  15:45  4:36  17:21***
Sanderling/Cleveland                 8:43  16:20  5:07  20:21******
Kofman/MDG                            8:30   17:10  3:35  15:32
Sanderling/Berlin                      8:29  15:21  5:06  19:41******
Caetani/SinfMilano                    8:28  14:28  4:15  18:11***
Ormandy/Phil.                          8:28   15:21  4:11  15:40**
Jansons/LPO                            8:20  17:08  3:59  16:40*****(*)
Slovak/Naxos                           8:20   15:42 4:00   16:01***
Barshai/WDR SO                      8:19  11:43  3:53  13:58****
Lopez-Cobos/CSO                    8:18   15:45  4:19  15:57***
Gergiev/Miniinsky                    8:18   14:59  4:04  16:36****
Haitink/SACDLive                    8:17   16:46  4:21  17:49****
Pletnev/RNO                           8:16   16:40   4:19  17:29**(*)
Rostropovich/LSO                    8:13  16:17   4:07   15:56***
Petrenko/Liverpool                   8:09   17:21  3:52  19:08****
Haitink/Concertgebouw             8:05  16:25  4:12  16:57***
Inbal/WSO                             8:05   15:08   4:25  15:39**(*)
Solti/CSO                               8:00   13:55  3:50   14:24***(*)
Ashkenazy/RPO                        8:00  13:33  4:11  14:18*****
Kitajenko/Gürzenich                 7:58  16:01  4:34  16:59
M.DSCH/Supraphon                 7:56  14:33  4:20  16:27******
Jarvi/Goteborg                         7:54  15:19  4:38  15:04***
Boreycko/Hanssler                    7:52  15:02  4:09  17:09
Polyansky/RSSO                      7:50   16:45  4:07  17:11**
M.DSCH/Premiere                    7:50   15:02  4:43  14:30*****(*)
Dutoit/Montreal                       7:47   15:54   4:19  15:25
Rozhdestvensky/USSR MOC      7:46  16:23  4:33  14:20 *****(*)
Mravinsky/LeningrSO                 7:43   14:28   3:38  13:52****(*)
Kondrashin/Moscow                  7:02  13:43  4:25  15:06*****
Kondrashin/Dresden                 7:00  13:56  4:20  17:10*****(*)





Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on May 30, 2014, 02:02:32 AM
That second movement of the Op.141 is one of Jansons' most glorious achievements.  I'm not surprised that Petrenko found guidance there.

And seeing that timing now for the Barshai . . . I wonder if I've actually listened to his . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on May 30, 2014, 03:21:58 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 01, 2014, 09:44:17 AM


R.Barshai / WDR SO
Brilliant

B.Haitink / RCO & LPO
(London Phil.  1-4, 7, 9, 10 and 15
Concertgebous 5,6,8 ,11-14)
Decca

M.Shostakovich / Prague SO

M.Rostropovich /

Y.Mravinsky / Leningrad PO
(incomplete)

K.Kondrashin / Moscow PO
Melodiya et al.

V.Petrenko / R.Liverpool PO

M.Jansons / Various
EMI
(BRSO, BPh, LPO, Oslo Phil, Pittsburgh SO,

M.Wigglesworth / Netherlands RPO, BBC NO Wales
BIS

V.Ashekenazy / Royal Phil., St.Petersburg PO, NHK SO
Decca

Various Conductors / RNO
Pentatone
(Vladimir Jurowski 1, 6 | P.Berglund 8 | M.Pletnev 11, 15 | Y.Kreizberg 5, 9... has that been all, to-date? 5 releases, 7 symphonies? Huh, seemed like there was more already)


V.Gergiev / Mariinsky O.
Mariinsky Live

D.Kitayenko / Gürzenich O.
Capriccio

DG Mixed Cycle
(Bernstein, Chung, Järvi, Karajan, Previn, Rostropovich)

L.Slovak / Yablonski
Czech RSO


...and any help and input to complete the list here would be much appreciated... I'm not physically around even the sets I own (bold) -- so any information on First and Last Date of Recording would be very much appreciated!!!

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on May 30, 2014, 04:04:01 AM
Kondrashin

Op. 70 : rec. 1965
[ Op. 119 : rec. 1965 ]
Op. 43 : rec. 1966
Opp. 47, 54, 65, 113 : rec. 1967
[ Opp. 90, 129, 131 : rec. 1967]
Opp. 10, 14, 20, 112 : rec. 1972
Opp. 93, 103 : rec. 1973
Opp. 135, 141 : rec. 1974
Op. 60 : rec. 1975

In brief, 1965 - 1975
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 30, 2014, 04:19:11 AM
Rostropovich

National SO 1, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 11, 13
London SO  2, 3, 6, 10, 12, 15
Academic SO Moscow 14

Recorded 1973 (14) and 1988-1995


Barshai

Recorded 1992-2000


Kitajenko

Recorded 2002-2004


Jansons

Recorded 1988-2005
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on May 30, 2014, 04:47:27 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 30, 2014, 04:19:11 AM
Kitajenko

Recorded 2002-2004

Whoosh!  That was brisk, eh?  And what's your opinion on the set, Sarge?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 30, 2014, 06:05:51 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 30, 2014, 04:47:27 AM
Whoosh!  That was brisk, eh?  And what's your opinion on the set, Sarge?

I love it. Kitajenko brings out the lyrical side of Shostakovich, downplays the subversive subtext (if it in fact exists). The sonics, especially the studio recordings (six are live) are exemplary, simply ravishing. It's the best sounding cycle.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on May 30, 2014, 06:18:32 AM
Oh, my wallet does not thank you.  But the musician does 8)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Mirror Image on May 30, 2014, 06:50:25 AM
Quote from: springrite on May 27, 2014, 09:53:46 AM
I like the Haitink Shosty 13!

(Cocktail obliged...)

Me too, but I also like Masur's 13th on Teldec.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on May 30, 2014, 07:00:08 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 30, 2014, 06:50:25 AM
Me too, but I also like Masur's 13th on Teldec.

You, Jens, prolly Karl- it seems like no one can get passed Masur here. How does Slava/Teldec compare I wonder? I mean, if no one can get passed Masur, then, Masur it is?? I always enjoyed Haitink (should have brought it), but, yea, I guess Masur in glorious Teldec sound... singer is the 'L' guy or 'A' guy? (there are only two singers for this piece, right?haha)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on May 30, 2014, 07:06:02 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 30, 2014, 02:02:32 AM
That second movement of the Op.141 is one of Jansons' most glorious achievements.  I'm not surprised that Petrenko found guidance there.

And seeing that timing now for the Barshai . . . I wonder if I've actually listened to his . . . .

That chart does illumine! Petrenko seems intriguing... as does Kofman on MDG (how is THAT sound I wonder?!)... right now it's between Jansons and Petrenko for me... will check back...


Maybe someone else can read the tea leaves here.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on May 30, 2014, 07:08:25 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 30, 2014, 04:19:11 AM
Rostropovich

National SO 1, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 11, 13
London SO  2, 3, 6, 10, 12, 15
Academic SO Moscow 14

Recorded 1973 (14) and 1988-1995


Barshai

Recorded 1992-2000


Kitajenko

Recorded 2002-2004


Jansons

Recorded 1988-2005
Quote from: karlhenning on May 30, 2014, 04:04:01 AM
Kondrashin

Op. 70 : rec. 1965
[ Op. 119 : rec. 1965 ]
Op. 43 : rec. 1966
Opp. 47, 54, 65, 113 : rec. 1967
[ Opp. 90, 129, 131 : rec. 1967]
Opp. 10, 14, 20, 112 : rec. 1972
Opp. 93, 103 : rec. 1973
Opp. 135, 141 : rec. 1974
Op. 60 : rec. 1975

In brief, 1965 - 1975

you guys are awesome!!!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: aukhawk on May 30, 2014, 09:29:19 AM
I can add to the above timings for No.15:

M.Shostakovitch/Moscow RSO     7:50  15:04  4:43  14.30  (the world premiere recording, 1972)
Mravinsky/Leningrad PO             7:43  14:28  3:38  13:52

also Caetani/Milano is 'only' 18:11 in the 4th movement, to the start of applause

Caetani/Milano                            8:28  14:28  4:15  18:11
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on May 30, 2014, 05:57:50 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 29, 2014, 08:43:11 PM


1) Rostropovich 15- the third movement 'Allegretto', at 5:40- much slower than even Sanderling, DOES NOT WORK. Too draggy. Except for Sanderling, most everyone else plays it at the 'guisto' speed for that performance (at least on paper).

2) Rostropovich's last movement, at right around 16:00, seems just NOT right. Notice how many others either opt for a much quicker or much slower speed- you either have to milk this music for all it's worth, or get it over with quickly. How are others @16?

3) Haitink's Decca recording is too "perfect", and the ending percussion tick-tock doesn't have the impact of, say, Rodzh, or some of the 'live' recordings.

4) Petrenko's, though, seemingly, a perfect performance, seems marred by not the crispest recording of all time. At this point I NEED the xylophone and piccolo to cut through the way they do in Schiff's Philips recording of CCs. I would have gotten Petrenko (may still), but the Naxos recording isn't EMI, waaaaah!

5) Maxim's EMI LP (never CD) captures the ending percussion nicely.

6) Wigglesworth is BIS distant???


I really want to hear Sanderling/Erato and Jansons/EMI and even Kondrashin/Dresden,... and Lopez-Cobos (still pretty expensive, as are a lot of issues here)... I'm turned off of Slava/Teldec... whew, lot's of cool comparisons...

MORE!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on May 31, 2014, 01:05:16 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 30, 2014, 02:02:32 AM
And seeing that timing now for the Barshai . . . I wonder if I've actually listened to his . . . .

How can he get away with such a short Adagio in 15?


btw- some perceived insights: the last chord of the Symphony, when the percussion start doing their thing, is the opening chord to Sym. 11? And,... what?, you may ask does the very last chime of the Sym. stand for??... wait... wait...



it's the elevator door chime at the hospital! Sounds to me like DSCH transcribed all the sounds he heard in the hospital (like in the intro to 'The Six Million Dollar Man') to a symphonic style. The "elevator" is.. well, you get it...
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on May 31, 2014, 01:06:10 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on May 30, 2014, 09:29:19 AM
I can add to the above timings for No.15:

M.Shostakovitch/Moscow RSO     7:50  15:04  4:43  14.30  (the world premiere recording, 1972)
Mravinsky/Leningrad PO             7:43  14:28  3:38  13:52

also Caetani/Milano is 'only' 18:11 in the 4th movement, to the start of applause

Caetani/Milano                            8:28  14:28  4:15  18:11

Currently added a few more... comparing these 15ths is interesting...
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise WHO DID I PICK 15?
Post by: snyprrr on June 01, 2014, 06:46:51 PM
I have just been freeeaking out over which 15th to re-baptize my appreciation, and, drum roll please, after much and much reading, listening, and debating, I stumbled across a DarkHorse that I believe no one has yet mentioned here. Just to be clear, I was going to leave Mravinsky, Kondrashin, and Rozh for the second round, not least because of relative expense (though the Mravinsky can be had for cheap- I just hear it's not on the level of Kondrashin- please discuss).

I needed sound, yet issues like Solti/Decca, Haitink/Decca, and perhaps Jarvi/DG seemed too polite. Jansons has been praised for beauty, but no one mentions anything deeper. Now, someone at The DSCH Journal said that Ashkenazy, of all people, had a "terrifying" 15th likened to Mravinsky and Kondrashin. BUUUT... Ashkenazy's timings in the two Adagios are the quickest of the whole modern bunch (except Barshai)- but, - wait,... ok, I read on, and this Reviewer convinced me that this might be the antidote for my old Haitink (which has gone missing).

But, what of Jansons, and beauty? And, timings wise, Ashkenazy and Jansons seem like interesting compares. So, because Sanderling/Cleveland was a little more than I wanted to pay at the moment, and Petrenko came with "Naxos sound" (sorry, it's not Decca,Philips,DG,SONY,Teldec, good as it may be- it lost to the newer, 'live' Haitink in ReviewWar), and many other recordings fell by the wayside for one reason or another (Ormandy- adequate, but perhaps not essential?(being nice)).

So, I chose Jansons for the cymbal, and Ashkenazy because the Reviewer stole my heart (and the disc was $1 :laugh:). Expectations for both are outrageously high at this point, and any disappointment might scar me! :o But, I have a feeling about the Ashkenazy (SantaFeListener calls his 5th the most horrible thing ever!)- the timings are to-the-point, and we have sound by London (Studio 1?- or is that Jansons?).

And I haven't heard one bad word about the Jansons. So, Jansons and Ashkenazy for the Debut!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Mirror Image on June 01, 2014, 06:54:09 PM
Haitink's newer 15th with the Royal Concertgebouw is quite good. You may want to check that one out, snyprrr.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on June 01, 2014, 07:01:11 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 01, 2014, 06:54:09 PM
Haitink's newer 15th with the Royal Concertgebouw is quite good. You may want to check that one out, snyprrr.

Against Petrenko, it won 3/4, but there was a criticism that his second 'Allegretto' was a little heavy, whereas Petrenko had the requisite impishness. What do you think of Ashkenazy as a potential Sleeper? Which recording would you most like to hear that you haven't?

1) It seems about everyone's 1st movement is accepted, whether it be 7:50, or 8:30, but

2) in the 3rd, one man's 4:11 is not another man's 4:11. Most of the timings are very close, but the effects of the basic pulse vary wildly from one to the next- it seems it's somewhat difficult to get the shawn rhythm going at the proper accordion tempo.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Ken B on June 01, 2014, 07:21:41 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 01, 2014, 06:54:09 PM
Haitink's newer 15th with the Royal Concertgebouw is quite good. You may want to check that one out, snyprrr.
Evil evil evil. I like it.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Mirror Image on June 01, 2014, 09:44:36 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 01, 2014, 07:01:11 PM
Against Petrenko, it won 3/4, but there was a criticism that his second 'Allegretto' was a little heavy, whereas Petrenko had the requisite impishness. What do you think of Ashkenazy as a potential Sleeper? Which recording would you most like to hear that you haven't?

1) It seems about everyone's 1st movement is accepted, whether it be 7:50, or 8:30, but

2) in the 3rd, one man's 4:11 is not another man's 4:11. Most of the timings are very close, but the effects of the basic pulse vary wildly from one to the next- it seems it's somewhat difficult to get the shawn rhythm going at the proper accordion tempo.

I really haven't given Ashkenazy's 15th much of a listen. I may heard it (once), but it's been probably four years ago whenever I bought his cycle. I don't find him to be that compelling of a Shostakovich interpreter. His Prokofiev is quite good and his Rachmaninov is some of the best around but when it came to Shostakovich, I find there's just something missing in his cycle. I feel the same way about Kitajenko's cycle on Capriccio. For me, it's still hard to shake my memory of Kondrashin's Dresden performance. This is my 15th to take to a desert island.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on June 02, 2014, 09:07:05 AM
Symphony No.4



The 'Spectacular Ones'

Salonen/DG
Chung/DG
Jansons/EMI
Rattle/EMI
Gergiev/Philips
Rostropovich/Teldec

Haitink 'live' CSO

Haitink/London
Ashkenazy/Decca
Ashenazy II/Decca (w/Japanese orch.)

Jarvi/Chandos


Other Current Top Choices

Rozhd./RussianDisc (1980s)
M.Shostakovich/Supraphon
Barshai/Regis-Brilliant
Slovak/Naxos


Two Odd Ducks

Herbig/Berlin
Kegel/Weitblick


The Rest of the Modern, High Profile Recordings

"more info"

Petrenko/Naxos
Caetani/Arts
Kofman/MDG
Boreyko/Hanssler
Bychkov/Avie
Raiskin/Cavi-Music
Inbal/Denon

"less info"

Polyansky/VistaVera
Wigglesworth/BIS
Judd/NuevaEra
Simonov/Cypres
Venzago/MusiquesSuisse


The Three Americans

Ormandy/SONY
Slatkin/RCA
Previn/EMI


The Originals

Rozhd./Alliance (1962)
Kondrashin/Profil (1960s)
Kondrtashin/Melodya-BMG
---/Regis-TransitionsLive???
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 02, 2014, 09:32:42 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 01, 2014, 07:01:11 PMWhat do you think of Ashkenazy as a potential Sleeper?

I haven't heard it but Gramophone thought well of it in their death match even though it wasn't one of the "winners."

Vladimir Ashkenazy, recorded a year later with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, is more objective than Rostropovich's Lenny-like embrace. Indeed, listening to the nuances of balance and texture Ashkenazy extracts from the woodwind in the first movement highlights Rostropovich's crudeness; this Shostakovich distains small-talk and relays its message with impatient urgency. The low trombone theme in the second movement exemplifies Ashkenazy's qualities — where others crawl he sprints and, proof that slow tempi don't necessarily add default gravitas, the final movements are hauntingly ghoulish. The Scherzo moves at a lick, with Ashkenazy pitching at the opposite end of the scale from Rostropovich's lightness. His textures are brittle, and the tense unison string chords (with squeaking harmonics giving them a unique flavour) are emotionally detached. The finale becomes positively orgiastic as the passacaglia gains momentum. The Glinka reference is again noticeably fast, but has a winsome yearning quality. It's a shame that clarity of detail i.e. percussion-writing during the coda becomes a casualty of the brisker speed.


Quote from: snyprrr on June 01, 2014, 07:01:11 PM
Which recording would you most like to hear that you haven't?

Maxim's Prague.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: André on June 02, 2014, 11:24:21 AM
An esteemed poster mentioned today an airing of the Kondrashin 13th. While this is probably from the Melodiya set (1967 performance), I think it should be mentioned that that unimpeachable Kondrashin effort, deserving of all the incomia it may have received ocver the years, ougth to be supplemented by a selected few performances.

- As a set, Kondrashin reigns supreme and shits over other contenders from a great height. However, heree are a few insispensable additions:

- 6: Adrian Boult and the London Philharmonic (Everest)
- 7: Yevgeny Svetlanov, USSR State Symphony Orchestra (1969 IIRC)
- 11: André Cluytens, French National Orchestra
- 13: Kondrashin, in his own, pionneering 1962 version - that laminated me BTW.
- 14: the first Barshai Melodiya version with the Moscow Chamber Orchestra.

Obviously, others may feel very strongly about their own favourite interpretations, but these are the only ones where I feel an alternative may be of stronger artistic value. Which is not to denigrate the stalwart emotional end musical virtues of KondrashinMs classic cycle.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: relm1 on June 02, 2014, 11:30:13 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 02, 2014, 09:32:42 AM
Maxim's Prague.

I like Maxim's Prague.  My favorite No. 5 is actually Maxim with the LSO on Collins.  http://www.amazon.com/Dmitry-Shostakovich-Symphony-Festive-Overture/dp/B000003VVR (http://www.amazon.com/Dmitry-Shostakovich-Symphony-Festive-Overture/dp/B000003VVR)  It's a great performance and recording and very polished in a modern sense (unlike Kondrashin which is raw and about to implode with surges of energy).  In general, the Prague account is very well interpreted, and less safe than the Collins/LSO account which is more polished but slightly reserved in a Haitink way (which is also excellent, just different).
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on June 02, 2014, 11:43:05 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 02, 2014, 09:32:42 AM
I haven't heard it but Gramophone thought well of it in their death match even though it wasn't one of the "winners."

Vladimir Ashkenazy, recorded a year later with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, is more objective than Rostropovich's Lenny-like embrace. Indeed, listening to the nuances of balance and texture Ashkenazy extracts from the woodwind in the first movement highlights Rostropovich's crudeness; this Shostakovich distains small-talk and relays its message with impatient urgency. The low trombone theme in the second movement exemplifies Ashkenazy's qualities — where others crawl he sprints and, proof that slow tempi don't necessarily add default gravitas, the final movements are hauntingly ghoulish. The Scherzo moves at a lick, with Ashkenazy pitching at the opposite end of the scale from Rostropovich's lightness. His textures are brittle, and the tense unison string chords (with squeaking harmonics giving them a unique flavour) are emotionally detached. The finale becomes positively orgiastic as the passacaglia gains momentum. The Glinka reference is again noticeably fast, but has a winsome yearning quality. It's a shame that clarity of detail i.e. percussion-writing during the coda becomes a casualty of the brisker speed.


Maxim's Prague.

It's a shame that clarity of detail i.e. percussion... coda... casualty...

mmm... well, there ya go... gotta have the Deathmatch blow-by-blow! Haha!! Well, we'll see (hear)...

1) I suppose the next 15th will have to be one of the Legendary Ones- I'm leaning toward the Kondrashin/Dresden...

2) That Maxim/Supraphon isn't listed as a stand alone. :(

3) That Rozhd., how are the sonics in the climaxes? It sounds good on YT, but I'm just wondering if there's any 'hardness' or whatever they call 'ack' these days. Is this the same performance that ends up on thirty different labels?

4) Any word there on the Boryeko/Hanssler or Kofman/MDG? The MDG has the potential for great sound, no? Hanssler too... I have a feeling that Jarvi is pretty standard here though I've heard precious little outside of good sound...


The rule is: you must engineer the record so the xylophones have that click- along with the piccolos. I don't hear the upper end on, say, Petrenko's samples. The Philips/Schiff CCs disc is almost my standard here. Even DG doesn't do the upper end like Philips...
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on June 02, 2014, 11:47:51 AM
Quote from: André on June 02, 2014, 11:24:21 AM
An esteemed poster mentioned today an airing of the Kondrashin 13th. While this is probably from the Melodiya set (1967 performance), I think it should be mentioned that that unimpeachable Kondrashin effort, deserving of all the incomia it may have received ocver the years, ougth to be supplemented by a selected few performances.

- As a set, Kondrashin reigns supreme and shits over other contenders from a great height. However, heree are a few insispensable additions:

- 6: Adrian Boult and the London Philharmonic (Everest)
- 7: Yevgeny Svetlanov, USSR State Symphony Orchestra (1969 IIRC)
- 11: André Cluytens, French National Orchestra
- 13: Kondrashin, in his own, pionneering 1962 version - that laminated me BTW.
- 14: the first Barshai Melodiya version with the Moscow Chamber Orchestra.

Obviously, others may feel very strongly about their own favourite interpretations, but these are the only ones where I feel an alternative may be of stronger artistic value. Which is not to denigrate the stalwart emotional end musical virtues of KondrashinMs classic cycle.

Why does the trend seem to be that NO modern conductor of any kind ever seems to play in the old style but simply with the benefit of decent sound? No one plays these (ridiculously) fast speeds at all- is it a pride thing that conductors don't want to incorporate others' insights? It seems many are playing the last movement to 15 slow after Sanderling...
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 02, 2014, 11:50:15 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 02, 2014, 11:43:05 AM
1) I suppose the next 15th will have to be one of the Legendary Ones- I'm leaning toward the Kondrashin/Dresden...

Just to make it easier...or harder. The notes from the Gram Death Match:

The case of Kyrill Kondrashin is an odd one. Two recordings from 1974, one studio version with the Moscow Philharmonic and the other a live account with the Staatskapelle Dresden, mix moments of brilliance with passages where the focus goes awry. The studio version is better. An effortless first movement is characterised by careful balancing of all its elements; a coy feel for the opening flute music counterpoints well with the crisply marching brass band music. The second movement begins with confident brass and opulently beautiful celloplaying, but thereafter the pacing looses its tautness — the disintegrating string music falls apart aimlessly, and the low brass march is listless. After the pert opening movement, Kondrashin's Scherzo is disappointing with his needlessly slow tempo upsetting the music's natural gradient. The finale works well during the grandstanding set-pieces, but Kondrashin's large brushstrokes are at the expense of the smaller details. Impetus all but disappears when the texture pares down to a few woodwind instruments, but there's no denying Kondrashin's steely control as he powers the movement to a barnstorming climax. The live version is spoilt by orchestral playing that lurches between so-so and acceptable. The opening movement is taken at such a rapid lick that the woodwind players struggle to avoid tripping over their fingers. Percussion lines are buried in the blurry mix — a version for collectors only.

Me? I prefer the studio performance too...but it might be nostalgia: it was my first 15th.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 02, 2014, 12:33:56 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 02, 2014, 11:43:05 AM

3) That Rozhd., how are the sonics in the climaxes? It sounds good on YT, but I'm just wondering if there's any 'hardness' or whatever they call 'ack' these days. Is this the same performance that ends up on thirty different labels?

The climaxes...pretty powerful, and no, I don't hear anything objectionable (hardness, etc). But the sound is odd in places. As a post above noted, the orchestral balance seems out of whack occasionally, with solo instruments obtrusively highlighted at the expense of the accompaniment. But hey, I grew up with Columbia LPs; it doesn't bother me at all  ;D  I simply groove on Rozh's weirdness (especially that first movement). Whether the BMG/Melodiya performance I have is the same as on other labels, I can't say for certain. I would assume so, though. Here's what I have:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan11/shos1415rozh.jpg)

Here's what Gramophone says:

Gennadi Rozhdestvensky, recorded in 1983, has the advantage of the superior USSR Ministry of Culture Symphony Orchestra. A nimble opening movement adds demented menace to the droll surface and the percussionists take full notice of Shostakovich's fastidious articulation markings — for example that bass drum player at 3'33", he's sparing no prisoners. As Shostakovich sets off a chain of irrational rhythms in the strings (eight quavers superimposed over sixes and quintuplets) Rozhdestvensky achieves an intriguing sensation of rhythmic snow-blindness where Mravinsky finds only mud. The wrong-side-of-the-mirror psychology of the second movement is probed forensically as the full throttle of the movement's huge climax section is contrasted brilliantly with the microscopic, disjointed string gestures of only a few pages previously. The divisi string passage and celesta/vibraphone dialogue is heralded by a woodblock that ticks ominously. Rozhdestvensky's most problematic movement is the Scherzo. Perhaps he's attempting to capitalise on the already sardonic nature of the writing by crawling at a snail's pace (a slow scherzo — geddit?), but the music loses its idiomatic shape. The finale has that same magnificent structural inevitability that so commends the second movement. Rozhdestvensky's performance is as knowingly eccentric as it is wise.

I like the Scherzo much more than this reviewer.

Edit: I'm listening to it now. The percussion kicks ass  8)

Edit the Second: The final bars are disappointing. Rozh, or his recording team, fail to make it sound "end of life" or "end of the world" ....it's too loud, too matter-of-fact. Still, overall, it's one of my favorite Fifteenths.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on June 02, 2014, 04:52:33 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 02, 2014, 11:50:15 AM
Just to make it easier...or harder. The notes from the Gram Death Match:

The case of Kyrill Kondrashin is an odd one. Two recordings from 1974, one studio version with the Moscow Philharmonic and the other a live account with the Staatskapelle Dresden, mix moments of brilliance with passages where the focus goes awry. The studio version is better. An effortless first movement is characterised by careful balancing of all its elements; a coy feel for the opening flute music counterpoints well with the crisply marching brass band music. The second movement begins with confident brass and opulently beautiful celloplaying, but thereafter the pacing looses its tautness — the disintegrating string music falls apart aimlessly, and the low brass march is listless. After the pert opening movement, Kondrashin's Scherzo is disappointing with his needlessly slow tempo upsetting the music's natural gradient. The finale works well during the grandstanding set-pieces, but Kondrashin's large brushstrokes are at the expense of the smaller details. Impetus all but disappears when the texture pares down to a few woodwind instruments, but there's no denying Kondrashin's steely control as he powers the movement to a barnstorming climax. The live version is spoilt by orchestral playing that lurches between so-so and acceptable. The opening movement is taken at such a rapid lick that the woodwind players struggle to avoid tripping over their fingers. Percussion lines are buried in the blurry mix — a version for collectors only.

Me? I prefer the studio performance too...but it might be nostalgia: it was my first 15th.

Sarge

Wow, yea, uh...

sorry,- looking at the weather girl! (do you know ANY thin, young, busty girls who are unemployed? doesn't happen, does it?)


Yea, those reviews put Kondrashin and Rohzd in context- it does make things more complex. I'd like to hear MI's response to those Dresden charges! ;)

Still, MI should check out Ashkenazy's 15th. The best thing about Problem Cycles is that there might just be a hidden gem in there. Notice how, when you look at Jansons' set issue-by-issue that his is a very mixed bag. Anyhow, I can't wait. 8)



So, how bout that list of 4ths? More than I thought, but, no Sanderling handy, though we have a Salonen (which hasn't seemingly garnered reviews). Lots of usual suspects... DSCH hunting can be exhausting!

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on June 02, 2014, 08:40:55 PM
Quote from: André on June 02, 2014, 11:24:21 AM
As a set, Kondrashin reigns supreme and shits over other contenders from a great height.

Crankin' up the radar:



(http://www.pagunblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/aa-gun.jpg)


I have half of Kondrashin's cycle and I don't put it on such a pedestal. What it lacks for me is a sense of depth and transparency.


Quote- 11: André Cluytens, French National Orchestra

Definitely agree with this one, though.


Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise SYMPHONY 4
Post by: snyprrr on June 03, 2014, 06:51:16 AM
Symphony 4

I listened to as many samples of the 'Moderato con moto' I were available- of course, only 30secs.- but, EVERYONE pretty much had the exact same mindset- EXCEPT when I heard the Gergiev- a minute faster- there was menace whereas there was jocularity in the others. It was just amazing the character change. The only thing- I noticed that, even in this clip, Gergiev downplays the "quieter" aspects of the proceedings- which is the major criticism of his whole recording. Chung is the only one who plays it as quick as Gergiev (from the samples, don't know about Kondrashin).
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: alkan on June 03, 2014, 09:17:04 AM
Symphony 4.

For a long time, Kondrashin was my favourite, and I still love this recording.     But much to my surprise, I had to demote him to second place when I heard (of all people) ..... Rattle with the CBSO.    A tremendously powerful and idiomatic interpretation which benefits from committed playing and a terrific modern recording.    This is really important not only for the huge climaxes, but also for the quiet passages.   The end of the symphony is absolutely mind-blowing .... first the apocalyptic, dissonant peroration which finally explodes like a nuclear bomb, leaving behind  a devastated twilight world.     Rattle is wonderful here .... a sustained, wierd atmosphere full of bizzare and menacing effects.

Symphony 5.   
For something completely different, try Sanderling.    Extremely powerful, and a very original take on the last movement.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on June 03, 2014, 09:23:51 AM
Quote from: alkan on June 03, 2014, 09:17:04 AM
Symphony 4.

For a long time, Kondrashin was my favourite, and I still love this recording.     But much to my surprise, I had to demote him to second place when I heard (of all people) ..... Rattle with the CBSO.    A tremendously powerful and idiomatic interpretation which benefits from committed playing and a terrific modern recording.    This is really important not only for the huge climaxes, but also for the quiet passages.   The end of the symphony is absolutely mind-blowing .... first the apocalyptic, dissonant peroration which finally explodes like a nuclear bomb, leaving behind  a devastated twilight world.     Rattle is wonderful here .... a sustained, wierd atmosphere full of bizzare and menacing effects.

Most interesting, thanks.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on June 03, 2014, 10:15:45 AM
Quote from: alkan on June 03, 2014, 09:17:04 AM
Symphony 4.

For a long time, Kondrashin was my favourite, and I still love this recording.     But much to my surprise, I had to demote him to second place when I heard (of all people) ..... Rattle with the CBSO.    A tremendously powerful and idiomatic interpretation which benefits from committed playing and a terrific modern recording.    This is really important not only for the huge climaxes, but also for the quiet passages.   The end of the symphony is absolutely mind-blowing .... first the apocalyptic, dissonant peroration which finally explodes like a nuclear bomb, leaving behind  a devastated twilight world.     Rattle is wonderful here .... a sustained, wierd atmosphere full of bizzare and menacing effects.

Symphony 5.   
For something completely different, try Sanderling.    Extremely powerful, and a very original take on the last movement.

Some say Rattle is too Mahlerian here. I don't even know what that means, but, presumably they're saying DSCH was too young to be feeling the things Rattle brings out in his music? (no, I don't either know what I just wrote)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on June 03, 2014, 10:18:35 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 02, 2014, 09:32:42 AM
Maxim's Prague.

It seems I've backed myself into the Sanderling/Cleveland corner. Can you tell me, about that looong last movement, does his simply slow down the 'Adagios', and then perk up for the 'Allegrettos', or, is even the ending percussion barrage played as slow as possible? I'm just having a time figuring how he can get 20 1/2 minutes out of the thing when others come in @13 1/3. ???
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on June 03, 2014, 11:06:11 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 03, 2014, 10:15:45 AM
Some say Rattle is too Mahlerian here.

Au contraire, that symphony was the firstfruits, we might almost say, of his great friend Sollertinsky's introducing him to the music of Mahler.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on June 03, 2014, 05:42:04 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 03, 2014, 11:06:11 AM
Au contraire, that symphony was the firstfruits, we might almost say, of his great friend Sollertinsky's introducing him to the music of Mahler.

ah, ok

Who are you liking in the 4th lately? There are at least 5 different Olympian Recordings to choose from at this point- I'm leaning towards Chung for the faster 'Moderato'... but who doesn't want to get all, haha!!?? :laugh: Who has the absolute best sound?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 03, 2014, 05:57:29 PM
Quote from: alkan on June 03, 2014, 09:17:04 AM
Symphony 4.

For a long time, Kondrashin was my favourite, and I still love this recording.     But much to my surprise, I had to demote him to second place when I heard (of all people) ..... Rattle with the CBSO.    A tremendously powerful and idiomatic interpretation which benefits from committed playing and a terrific modern recording.   

Yeah, that's a good one. The sense of powerful forces barely under control really comes across well.

BTW I see little mention of Ormandy for the 15th. That's another favorite of mine.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: alkan on June 03, 2014, 09:12:07 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 03, 2014, 05:42:04 PM
Who has the absolute best sound?

For me, Rattle, although I have only 2 others to compare against (Kondrashin and Roshzdvensky).   However, Rattle's recorded sound is one of the best I have in my entire collection of symphonic music.   And this is not an easy work to record (huge climaxes, big orchestra).   It really adds to the impact of the interpretation and the playing of the orchestra   (one of the best in the world at the time).
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: alkan on June 03, 2014, 09:25:01 PM
Whilst we are on the topic of the 4th Symphony, I'd like to ask a question.    Did Shostakovich have any specific thoughts in mind for the coda?  It starts very quietly, then a huge timpani-led crescendo, dissonances, peroration, explosion, and finally a long, eeiry fadeout.    This music is amongst the most powerful and original that I know, but I often wonder what was going on in Shostakovich's head and what he is trying to communicate.     Does anyone know (or have any opinions)?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on June 04, 2014, 04:39:20 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 03, 2014, 05:42:04 PM
Who are you liking in the 4th lately? There are at least 5 different Olympian Recordings to choose from at this point- I'm leaning towards Chung for the faster 'Moderato'... but who doesn't want to get all, haha!!?? :laugh: Who has the absolute best sound?

Big fan of Maksim Dmitriyevich [in Russian there is no "x," so that sound is representing by the two constituent consonants, so they spell the name Aleksandr, e.g.], Petrenko, and Haitink/ChicagoRattle is good, too, mind you.  These all sound splendid.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on June 04, 2014, 04:40:14 AM
Quote from: alkan on June 03, 2014, 09:12:07 PM
For me, Rattle, although I have only 2 others to compare against (Kondrashin and Roshzdvensky).

This comparison is true.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on June 04, 2014, 04:42:20 AM
Quote from: alkan on June 03, 2014, 09:25:01 PM
Whilst we are on the topic of the 4th Symphony, I'd like to ask a question.    Did Shostakovich have any specific thoughts in mind for the coda?  It starts very quietly, then a huge timpani-led crescendo, dissonances, peroration, explosion, and finally a long, eeiry fadeout.    This music is amongst the most powerful and original that I know, but I often wonder what was going on in Shostakovich's head and what he is trying to communicate.     Does anyone know (or have any opinions)?

No one knows, many have opinions  ;)

Seriously, Shostakovich (partly by natural inclination, partly because of the 'negative reinforcement' of public and powerful repercussions) scarcely ever offered "personal thoughts" on what the music "depicted."
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Mirror Image on June 04, 2014, 06:39:17 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 04, 2014, 04:39:20 AM
Big fan of Maksim Dmitriyevich [in Russian there is no "x," so that sound is representing by the two constituent consonants, so they spell the name Aleksandr, e.g.], Petrenko, and Haitink/ChicagoRattle is good, too, mind you.  These all sound splendid.

I believe it was you, Karl, who turned me onto Previn's 4th on EMI. That was a great account as well.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise ONE & NINE/NINE & ONE
Post by: snyprrr on June 05, 2014, 10:21:28 AM
Symphonies 1 & 9

Haintink/Decca
Rostropovich/Teldec

What's the coin-toss here? If Slava is firing on all cylinders, then maybe he brings in this combination on time (with maybe some surreal moments to boot?); if not, I guess Haitink's ever-professionalism wins out? If the Teldec sound is marginally better than the Decca, that might matter too (though I know that Decca recording is quite fine indeed- it's strictly Decca vs. Teldec engineers here). Barshai also has a previous effort with this combination...
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: André on June 05, 2014, 05:14:53 PM
Barshai's previous effort (with the Vancouver Symphony) suffers from distant, anonymous sound. Clean and clear enough, but not as good as that of the Cologne version.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on June 06, 2014, 06:55:12 AM
Quote from: André on June 05, 2014, 05:14:53 PM
Barshai's previous effort (with the Vancouver Symphony) suffers from distant, anonymous sound. Clean and clear enough, but not as good as that of the Cologne version.

check
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise ASHKENAZY 9/15-Winner!!
Post by: snyprrr on June 06, 2014, 05:46:20 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 01, 2014, 09:44:36 PM
I really haven't given Ashkenazy's 15th much of a listen. I may heard it (once), but it's been probably four years ago whenever I bought his cycle. I don't find him to be that compelling of a Shostakovich interpreter. His Prokofiev is quite good and his Rachmaninov is some of the best around but when it came to Shostakovich, I find there's just something missing in his cycle. I feel the same way about Kitajenko's cycle on Capriccio. For me, it's still hard to shake my memory of Kondrashin's Dresden performance. This is my 15th to take to a desert island.

Please do check out Ashkenazy's 15th, if you do have the Cycle. It arrived before Jansons, and I couldn't wait, and,... drumroll pleeease!... it's quite exciting and vital from beginning to end: it has some of the quickest slow movements on record, mimicking Mravinsky perhaps, and the effect is riveting. The tempos seem just right, though, and I really wonder how Sanderling can get a 20 minute last movement!

Ashkenazy's 9th is also one of the fleetest around, and in both he seems quite in tune with the characterizations of the different solo instruments. Though 9 and 15 would seem to make natural discmates, this may be the only pairing, and here they are played in two different venues, a year apart, but to no discernible effect. Check out Ashkenazy's quicker 'Moderato' in 9, against, say, Rostropovich (or Petrenko) for an example of his smarts in bringing out the jewish character of the anxious melody- this seems like such paranoid music!

Anyhow, if you have the Ashkenazy, please do check out the 15th at least, though both seem like Demonstration quality to me. But, then, I used to like his 5th! (surely not bad as a compare!).

I have to make special mention of this recording, which i think must be one of the best of the house from Decca/London. The triangle, the celesta(?), and the xylophone,- all the percussion in fact, in wonderfully rendered,- though the recording as a whole is typically 'Decca distant'- though perfectly so- so that really the only problem area was that very last percussion section at the very end, which is taken as fast as anyone would want, somewhat doesn't have the openness of, say, the classic Maxim debut version that we hear on YT. But, I'm really just being extra picky, because the - I believe- celesta at the very end is rendered beautifully, and especially the opening and closing triangle set the seal on this recording- it reminds me of Haitink's sound somewhat, but here Ashkenazy seems more 'human' than Haitink -

anyhow, Ashkenazy's a Winner in 15 (and 9) and is extra cheap if one wants to get it alone.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise ASHKENAZYvsJANSONS 15
Post by: snyprrr on June 11, 2014, 02:42:54 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 01, 2014, 06:46:51 PM
I have just been freeeaking out over which 15th to re-baptize my appreciation, and, drum roll please, after much and much reading, listening, and debating, I stumbled across a DarkHorse that I believe no one has yet mentioned here. Just to be clear, I was going to leave Mravinsky, Kondrashin, and Rozh for the second round, not least because of relative expense (though the Mravinsky can be had for cheap- I just hear it's not on the level of Kondrashin- please discuss).

I needed sound, yet issues like Solti/Decca, Haitink/Decca, and perhaps Jarvi/DG seemed too polite. Jansons has been praised for beauty, but no one mentions anything deeper. Now, someone at The DSCH Journal said that Ashkenazy, of all people, had a "terrifying" 15th likened to Mravinsky and Kondrashin. BUUUT... Ashkenazy's timings in the two Adagios are the quickest of the whole modern bunch (except Barshai)- but, - wait,... ok, I read on, and this Reviewer convinced me that this might be the antidote for my old Haitink (which has gone missing).

But, what of Jansons, and beauty? And, timings wise, Ashkenazy and Jansons seem like interesting compares. So, because Sanderling/Cleveland was a little more than I wanted to pay at the moment, and Petrenko came with "Naxos sound" (sorry, it's not Decca,Philips,DG,SONY,Teldec, good as it may be- it lost to the newer, 'live' Haitink in ReviewWar), and many other recordings fell by the wayside for one reason or another (Ormandy- adequate, but perhaps not essential?(being nice)).

So, I chose Jansons for the cymbal, and Ashkenazy because the Reviewer stole my heart (and the disc was $1 :laugh:). Expectations for both are outrageously high at this point, and any disappointment might scar me! :o But, I have a feeling about the Ashkenazy (SantaFeListener calls his 5th the most horrible thing ever!)- the timings are to-the-point, and we have sound by London (Studio 1?- or is that Jansons?).

And I haven't heard one bad word about the Jansons. So, Jansons and Ashkenazy for the Debut!

Ashkenazy's 15th just gets better and better. Jansons arrived today, and, I'm not sure I'm such a big fan of the protracted Adagio. Between Ashkenazy's 13:33 and Jansons's 17:03, I think Ashkenazy takes it without a peep. The Jansons Adagio just seemed to go on... and was it feeling limp? ??? Anyhow, I will listen again- this is just a warning!

Both take the opening as anyone would want it, but it is in the little schizoid violin solo that we hear just normal playing (Jansons) versus some real nice scratchy violin work that reminded me a little of Irvine Arditti (Ashkenazy). Again, I heared the cello solo in the Adagio was rendered better with Ashkenazy.

Both fare pretty equally in the 'Scherzo', though, here, I think the actual engineering is what sets these two apart. I've heard how great this Jansons recording is, and no doubt it is very fine- but the Ashkenazy is just as fine and I do believe the percussion is rendered with just that much more clarity. Listen at the very end, when the (is it the celesta or xylophone, doh?!) comes in- those tinkling notes are just perfectly caught - one would have actually hoped that this was the Haitink 15th and not the Ashkenazy?!haha

So, even though Ashkenazy takes the ending 'faster' than most, I now don't think that it affects the ending percussion tick-tock, and I in fact prefer it to Jansons's slower tempo (now I really can't imagine Sanderling), The whole ending percussion barrage really hit me as not-quite-there in the Jansons- but, again, it's a somewhat oddly clunky rhythm as it is- I think most have issues here with balance and such?

I'll continue on with Jansons, but I want to emphatically state that this Ashkenazy 15th won hands down in an initial listening- and on some crucial points, I might add! Maybe I wouldn't harp on it if you couldn't get it for $2! BuyItNOW!!

I will be a bit more hesitant now in approaching Sanderling.


Karl? Ashkenazy 15 (no matter if the rest is offal, though, 9 is excellent too) (Royal Phil. vs Janson's London Phil.)

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on June 22, 2014, 11:18:53 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 02, 2014, 09:07:05 AM
Symphony No.4


The 'Spectacular Ones'

Salonen/DG- these four widely figure into most everyone's  TopConsiderations (not necessarily ACTUAL Top5, perhaps). I have yet to read a
Chung/DG                     comprehensive review of the Salonen (perhaps he's not maniac enough?); Chung seems to currently be MostControversial simply in
Jansons/EMI                 terms of Yay/Nay votes (though NO ONE disputes the Sheer Supremacy of Sound); concerning both Jansons and Rattle- I can't figure
Rattle/EMI                    out what the reviewers are actually saying- Rattle seems to get disqualified because his timpani isn't "there", and Jansons is always
                                    getting remarks like "Humane", "Musical", but nothing I can understand. Sound for all is varying degrees of StateoftheArt

Gergiev/Philips- yes, I cut Gergiev, mostly for the criticism of his handling of quiet parts, and- what has happened to The Philips Sound?!?!harsh
Rostropovich/Teldec
- this is the library copy I'm listening to, and i'm afraid it's just good enough to spoil me into being too picky. Frankly, it delivers, it's got the goods, the open sound, it staddles reigns in/reigns out very well- BUT I NEED MOREMOREMORE! Only the very last spark of madness is missing, but, I may be mistaken. I think it will make the Top7 at least.

Haitink/London-  only quibble is is that Haitink doesn't channel the devil himself; otherwise, the crystalline reputation intrigues. Top5?Top7?
Ashkenazy/Decca- hearing VERY mixed reviews. Some say "Weakest of Cycle"; some, "Flagging Start Becomes Ferocious"; some, "Great Decca Sound"
Ashenazy II/Decca (w/Japanese orch.)- I think the previous reviewer thought the remake was no better. What a shame- I'm cutting based on other reviews of the 13th and 14th with the same orchestra. Apparently just uncompetitive

Jarvi/Chandos- ALWAYS in the Top2-3, next to Rozhdestventsky.  Some may debate the 'Chandos Sound'- here, I don't. I VOTE      JARVI


Other Current Top Choices

Rozhd./RussianDisc (1980s)- always recognized as one of the Top3, but always with the caveat of sound issues
M.Shostakovich/Supraphon- this is still a dark horse that I'm only hearing good things about, but haven't found a long review of
Haitink/CSOResound
[/s]- this one is in danger of being cut, because the field is now just too crowded


Labels with Good Engineering Reputations

Kofman/MDG- the reviewer betrayed deal breaking flaws in execution- pity, MDG's sound is always a factor, but can't save the day
Boreyko/Hanssler- good as some say it is, the sound/performance standards for this work are too high (currently) to warrant entry into the Top7


Two Odd Ducks

Herbig/Berlin
Kegel/Weitblick


The Rest of the Modern, High Profile Recordings

"more info"

Barshai/Brilliant- some rave, but I'm too curious about Maxim/Supr. to consider- too many other Russians too
Petrenko/Naxos- I'm debating on cutting Petrenko because of one dissenting review, claiming he doesn't drain the verrry last drop
Caetani/Arts
Slovak/Naxos
Bychkov/Avie- Bychkov getting high marks, but not high enough to seem to matter in such a crowded field
Raiskin/Cavi-Music- Raiskin is getting comments like "Most Lacerating 1stMvmt"- with good sound
Inbal/Denon

"less info"

Polyansky/VistaVera
Wigglesworth/BIS- some of the reviewers really seem to like him, but there is always a caveat
Judd/NuevaEra
Simonov/Cypres
Venzago/MusiquesSuisse


The Three Americans

Ormandy/SONY- I HAVE to start cutting- Ormandy gets the axe compared with Chung (let's say)
Slatkin/RCA- where exactly does Slatkin fall down- or does he? RCA sound could be spectacular?
Previn/EMI- I'm reading more and more good stuff here. Is sound the only drawback?


The Originals

Rozhd./Alliance (1962)
Kondrashin/Profil (1960s)
Kondrtashin/Melodya-BMG
---/Regis-TransitionsLive???
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Brahmsian on June 22, 2014, 11:22:23 AM
QuotePetrenko/Naxos- I'm debating on cutting Petrenko because of one dissenting review, claiming he doesn't drain the verrry last drop

I think that would be a mistake.  Good to the last drop!  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on June 22, 2014, 11:31:42 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on June 22, 2014, 11:22:23 AM
I think that would be a mistake.  Good to the last drop!  :)

Is he daemonic enough though? Do you like someone better?. If this were 'The Matrix', and...




I'll admit I almost had my finger on the trigger, but went a' review huntin', and the one guy reeeally let Petrenko have it (which, granted, was pretty much only that, in such broad tempi, he missed "something or other"haha). He'll have to be better than Jarvi, cause that's where I'm leaning at the moment (price would be a slight consideration, but most everyone's cheap).

Jarvi and Previn fared the best in my "Emotional Poll" (how does snyprrr "feeeeel" about it) ::) :laugh:


SERIOUSLY, I NEEEED TO GET A PERFECT FOURTH IN SPECTACULAR SOUND BY SUNSET!!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & OtherwisePLEASE CLARIFY BTWN JANSONS/RATTL
Post by: snyprrr on June 22, 2014, 11:40:25 AM
Jansons vs Rattle

Please, please, I beg of you, clear the air here for me, what are the actual forensic result of these two? Rattle seems to engender totally polarizing reviews, whilst basically mims-the-word concerning any detail of Jansons's sound or performance. Are either in the Top3? Surely the Top5 or Top7?

All I hear about Rattle is the "problem" with the timpani. Other than that, people wet the bed over this. WHAT'S THE TRUTH??

JansonsJansonsJansons... WHAT'S THE TRUTH???


Life must go on, but it will go on AFTER this issue has been settled! Who will cross the bridge of sighs and slay this mystery?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise AGAINST ALL ODDS, JARVI 4
Post by: snyprrr on June 22, 2014, 02:45:50 PM
Was Paavo being conceived when this Symphony was recorded?


Karl's admonition notwithstanding(?)- ah,...- have you listened recently and I just forgot?... I'm giving the boom boom acoustics the benefit of the doubt at the moment. The fact that so many recording seem to be recorded at a 'safe' distance (the Ashkenazy sample came to mind),... well, we'll hear when it comes...

And if I'd had an extra $7 I would have gotten Jansons too- due to LEAST amount of negative comments!! haha ::)

And Previn, for an Oldie.

If I had lottery winnings Id splurge on Salonen AND Chung.



I ALMOST took Slatkin on a personal bet, but... I wus scrurred.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on June 22, 2014, 02:48:55 PM
I'm sorry if anyone's disappointed. :(
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on June 22, 2014, 02:55:08 PM
Jansons & Rattle . . . I think I may do a spot-listen . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 22, 2014, 02:59:25 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 22, 2014, 02:48:55 PM
I'm sorry if anyone's disappointed. :(

You passed up Jansons, Rattle, Kondrashin, Rozhdestvensky, Previn and Slava for...Järvi?  ???

I'm so disappointed  ;D ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on June 22, 2014, 03:39:49 PM
The Op.43 . . .

Listened to the first 5-1/2 minutes of the first movement.  Advantage: Jansons.  More energy and direction.  On its own, probably I should have had no quarrel with the Rattle;  only given this side-by-side comparison, the comparative stateliness of the pace felt just on the verge of languor.

Listened to a patch of the third movement, from the keening oboes at the end of the marcia funebre, through the massive "extended hocket" tutti, through to the orchestral bells and timpani fortissimo, and the big unison trombone peroration.  Advantage: JansonsRattle whipped the Birminghamers quicker, at least at first, and it felt like a borderline-unmusical strain;  and in fact the momentum wore down, so that at the last it felt a little tired, oom-pah-pah-ish.  Then at the orchestral bells &c. passage, he ratcheted the tempo back up, and it felt unmotivated.

Listened to the last 8-ish minutes of the third movement, the waltz, and then its dissolution, the grand pealing brass, and the aftershock.  Man, the Bavarians sound terrific with Jansons.  For the waltz, there was a grace to Jansons's take;  Rattle sounded in a hurry, and I'm not sure why.  For the big brass bit, there was a bit of a sourness to the intonation of the Birmingham brass, times when there was a bit of dispute in the pitch among the horns.  Not at all a genuinely bad performance, but (again) hearing the two orchestras in succession, this is the sort of difference which stands out.  Advantage: Jansons.

Listened to a patch of the second movement, the Trio, and the retransition into the Scherzo, the fugato.  Love how the Bavarian strings dig in at the succeeding entrances of the fugato.  Curious to report, there is a moment of dodgy intonation in the Birmingham strings near the start of the Trio.  The string entrances in the fugato, a little wishy-washy among the Birminghamers.  Once again, and overall--Advantage: Jansons.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise THE BEST 4TH IS THE NEXT ONE!
Post by: snyprrr on June 22, 2014, 05:28:33 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 22, 2014, 03:39:49 PM
The Op.43 . . .

Listened to the first 5-1/2 minutes of the first movement.  Advantage: Jansons.  More energy and direction.  On its own, probably I should have had no quarrel with the Rattle;  only given this side-by-side comparison, the comparative stateliness of the pace felt just on the verge of languor.

Listened to a patch of the third movement, from the keening oboes at the end of the marcia funebre, through the massive "extended hocket" tutti, through to the orchestral bells and timpani fortissimo, and the big unison trombone peroration.  Advantage: JansonsRattle whipped the Birminghamers quicker, at least at first, and it felt like a borderline-unmusical strain;  and in fact the momentum wore down, so that at the last it felt a little tired, oom-pah-pah-ish.  Then at the orchestral bells &c. passage, he ratcheted the tempo back up, and it felt unmotivated.

Listened to the last 8-ish minutes of the third movement, the waltz, and then its dissolution, the grand pealing brass, and the aftershock.  Man, the Bavarians sound terrific with Jansons.  For the waltz, there was a grace to Jansons's take;  Rattle sounded in a hurry, and I'm not sure why.  For the big brass bit, there was a bit of a sourness to the intonation of the Birmingham brass, times when there was a bit of dispute in the pitch among the horns.  Not at all a genuinely bad performance, but (again) hearing the two orchestras in succession, this is the sort of difference which stands out.  Advantage: Jansons.

Listened to a patch of the second movement, the Trio, and the retransition into the Scherzo, the fugato.  Love how the Bavarian strings dig in at the succeeding entrances of the fugato.  Curious to report, there is a moment of dodgy intonation in the Birmingham strings near the start of the Trio.  The string entrances in the fugato, a little wishy-washy among the Birminghamers.  Once again, and overall--Advantage: Jansons.

You had me at hello, Karl! :laugh: ok, that settles THAT! See how easy that is?


Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 22, 2014, 02:59:25 PM
You passed up Jansons, Rattle, Kondrashin, Rozhdestvensky, Previn and Slava for...Järvi?  ???

I'm so disappointed  ;D ;)

Sarge

1) Well, like I said, I'm listening to the library Slava as my FirstListen, and it's very very good but shows me there can be more, and people are holding up Jarvi as quite one of the brutal ones.

2) Karl just settled the JansonsvsRattle Debate for me. Won't last the night...

3) I'll get Previn if I can find the cheap one.

4) I have to make Rozh a "later on" decision because of the sound/tutti issues "wooly bassdrum"

5) Kondrashin overcomes any sonic limitations with zesty vigor,- and the sonic limitations didn't sound too bad (but I do seek to eliminate sound considerations, that's why I like to focus on Teldec, Philips, Decca, Virgin, bla bla,... I know, that makes me a bitch, but, I DEMAND that in this day and age I should be able to EXPECT Sound+Vision without any added charge!)


I mean, there's some ANAL people out there is DSCH Review-land, haha,... and, you know, you can tell with some of these reviews if they're in to it or not. Sometimes you can see them frothing as they type. But, then there's the problem when eeeveryone is saying one thing, and this one, lone dissenter comes and brings out some obvious point that makes you wonder everyone else's capability. It's quite maddening, but,... frankly, Jarvi came out smelling like roses, with most of the competition having killed each other off in the preliminaries! kARL, AND EVERYONE ELSE, HAS AT LEAST CONVINCED ME THAT(gaaah) Jansons is "lisenable" enough (oh, we are so spoiled, haha)!

It does sadden me that Rozh & Co. usually come with Desire Inducing Sound. Anyhow,... haha, I'm also convinced that it is alcohol that allows you to listen to scratchy old records- an essential "listening aid", haha??!!??!!

"This Vodka Sounds Great"

Anyhow, the Best 4th Is the Next One!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Brahmsian on June 23, 2014, 06:38:33 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 22, 2014, 11:31:42 AM
Is he daemonic enough though? Do you like someone better?. If this were 'The Matrix', and...

I'll admit I almost had my finger on the trigger, but went a' review huntin', and the one guy reeeally let Petrenko have it (which, granted, was pretty much only that, in such broad tempi, he missed "something or other"haha).

Well, get your finger back on it.  :D

Of the 4ths I've heard (only 3 performances), I like best (in order):

*Petrenko/RLPO
*Ormandy/Philadelphia (American premiere) - close second
*Barshai/WDR Kolner[/list]
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on June 23, 2014, 06:52:10 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on June 23, 2014, 06:38:33 AM
Of the 4ths I've heard (only 3 performances), I like best (in order):

*Petrenko/RLPO
*Ormandy/Philadelphia (American premiere) - close second
*Barshai/WDR Kolner

Of that list, your ranking strikes me as sound :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise THESE ARE THE RULES!!!!!
Post by: snyprrr on June 23, 2014, 08:36:30 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on June 23, 2014, 06:38:33 AM

    Well, get your finger back on it.  :D

    Of the 4ths I've heard (only 3 performances), I like best (in order):

    *Petrenko/RLPO
    *Ormandy/Philadelphia (American premiere) - close second
    *Barshai/WDR Kolner

But, don't you NEEEED at least one of the SuperMightyDigitalWonders to at least compare?


We need some rules here... tap tap tap....

ok, this is how it goes. When we meet, say, a Prokofiev or DSCH Symphony, this is what we MUST do:

1) Get whatever is the LEAST negatively criticized, most standard issue FirstListen type of performance that most all can agree to. (here it was Jarvi)

2) Get one of 'The Originals'- usually in bad sound,- everyone always raves about the Russians in bad sound. (mRAV, kONDR, Gauk, etc.,...)

3) Get one of the NewSuperDigitalWonders (in the 4th here- Chung, Salonen, Rattle, Jansons, etc.)

4) Get one crappy version- or GuiltyPleasure,- or XXXtreme- or something to bounce of off. (Slatkin?)

5) By this time you should be able to get a fifth version all by yourself, seeing as you've probably spent weeks researching this Symphony to death!

6) 6??? Now we're starting to go overboard!!!!STOP HERE for now and move on to another Symphony.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on June 23, 2014, 08:38:58 AM
snypsss, have you thought about Caetani in the Op.43? . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on June 23, 2014, 08:43:27 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 03, 2014, 10:15:45 AM
Some say Rattle is too Mahlerian here. I don't even know what that means . . .

As I revisited that one yesterday, I suppose what is meant is the "mood-swing manner" (which I don't suppose is fair either to Mahler or to ДШ) . . . but (while not to the exaggerated degree of Gergiev) Rattle seems determined to exaggerate certain contrasts, which to my mind sacrifices The Grand Arc of the piece.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 23, 2014, 08:57:02 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 23, 2014, 08:43:27 AM
Rattle seems determined to exaggerate certain contrasts, which to my mind sacrifices The Grand Arc of the piece.

I think this is the crux of most critiques against Rattle - not just in this piece, but in general. It shows up to greater effect in music where there's a lot of competing versions, and seems to annoy people largely on that basis (see any Hurwitz critique of Rattle in Mahler, Beethoven or similar much-recorded composer). In music where there's not a lot of competition (Adams, Messiaen, Szymanowski), either he's doing less of it because there's no need to make the interpretation self-consciously "stand out," or the music isn't familiar enough to notice it.

It's also something that's more effective live than in the studio. Every Rattle concert I've been to has been good or great, but there are a lot of misfires in his discography.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on June 23, 2014, 09:03:14 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 23, 2014, 08:38:58 AM
snypsss, have you thought about Caetani in the Op.43? . . .

On Amazon, they have a listing for the MDG, but when you click on to hear samples, the Caetani is there. If those are Caetani's samples, yes, the 1stmvmt sample really had some bite to it (reminding of the Raiskin review "most lacerating").


What I'm getting out of the actual music is is that, as they say, it is either a meditation of Mahlerian procedures, or it is the soundtrack to an imaginary movie. I'd say both- the music to me simply seems like he choose a tempo, and then bopped along, putting in whatever came into his mind, whilst continuing to keep the metronome going in the background- it's just a virtuoso display...

but it's more than that, because this virtuoso display is married to a musical language rich in paranoiac and 'The Fugitive' type atmosphere (which it keeps up for the whole thing). This music almost reminds me of a kind of prog-rock from the '70s, where they just adopted a tempo, and then built section upon section until they were done- of course DSCH does this with quite a better idea of line and trajectory!!


I could start a whole 70min Symphony off with simply  EEE EDDD (one-two-three) one (one-two-three)

DSCH was big on this "motto" theme thingy, and it reminds me of Pettersson too, and they just string the whole thing together like a pearl necklace? Yes or no?



Symphony 4- to me- in it's simplest form- reminds me of an imaginary b+w British TV Spy Thriller- with the main picture being some cool imaginary British car racing (cartoon like) across a bridge with threatening skies and a threatening British countryside (because- they're NOT threatening... like in 'Hot Fuzz')... persued, or not...

the dashing hero


the villian


what's that 2nd mvmt melody???                  g  f#  g  c#      ??     That's 'The Theme' (the plucky hero's theme) or     g  f#  g  c   -  g  f#  g  Bb
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on June 23, 2014, 11:33:32 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 22, 2014, 05:28:33 PM
3) I'll get Previn if I can find the cheap one.

The Previn/CSO is overall very good.  I remember feeling that he didn't quite carry the "extended hocket" tutti of the third movement, but:  I should go back, listen again, and see if my ear has reconsidered.  I also have an impossibly niggling quarrel (which scarcely anyone else on GMG will care about) with one of the recurring rhythms in the big Pealing Brass passage, but I do not find that a Fatal Flaw.  The band sounds good, it cannot be denied.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise KARAJAN ORIGINALS SOUND
Post by: snyprrr on June 23, 2014, 04:19:44 PM
Symphony No.10 Op.93 (1953)

I haven't touched my DSCH CDs that I do have (only Karajan 10, Stokowski 11, and Haitink 13 left) since I began recently, so, I thought it was time to break out the Karajan '81. Now first, let me get this question out of the way: I have a pretty early CD,- in what way does 'The Originals' improve this, to my ears, strange sounding CD, that my ears then get used to (I mean, I put on the Allegro first, and the sound was just odd compared to my recent listening). Also, it was noted that this recording has some aggravating dynamic ranges which I noticed in the 3rd mvmt. (too soft/too loud)

Anyhow, I skipped the Moderato just to hear the Allegro. Is there really any need to comment? Listening to Karajan the pleasure is in the incisiveness, but I wonder what a truly unhinged performance sounds like (will check that Mrav).

But, the last two movements are what I really wanted to discuss. I seem to recall (this CD may actually be the first I ever bought, it's that old) not particularly having an impression of these, and now I see why. I don't know if it's this DG recording, but much of the music resides in that ghostly waltzland type of the 'grotesque' that one finds in Prokofiev- but here DSCH is really eerie- but- I don't get it.

I see that the 3rd is (is it?) the first instance of the DSCH motif- and there is some of the paranoia of the 9th Symphony here- looking over your shoulder music- with the grotesque cariacature of Stalin plainly visible for the hearing. But I haven't gotten a grip on the sections yet. I do like the lightning fast (I think) clarinet in the 4th.

So- fourth time through the last two movements.




So, this Karajan sounds 'small', like it's a small orchestra. What's up with that? Is it just such a polished DG first go at Digital that it's tighter than a duck's ass? The 10th sounds to me like it needs a BigHall (the booklet doesn't say; Gunter Hermanns is the engineer) and this record really sounds like it was conceived in a studio. Still, very incisive, quite razor like. Again, does 'The Originals' address any of these issues?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise I NEED A FIFTH!!! TWO FIFTHS!
Post by: snyprrr on June 24, 2014, 11:11:05 AM
Symphony No.5

I must have first heard the old Haitink from the library, and Penguin recommended the new Ashkenzy- which they convinced me was perfect (the "icy Adagio"- I like ice!), saying the low wattage opening was on purpose. And hey, who was I to know?m it was my first! And, frankly, I like the Ashkenazy, all 'perfect' and everything- sorry SantaFe!

So, currently we have the library's Lenny (there's only One?), and I went straight for the Finale. I couldn't remember, Does he take it too fast or too slow? My first impression is of the rough-to-my-ears recording- and yes, he's a bit fast, but not ridiculously so (and I thought this was going to be 15 mins! is that Sanderlinf again?). But, I hear nothing extra super special here- it's fast.


Anyhow, before I take the plunge to give the opening the Five-Note-Challenge- OH I'M DREADING THIS!!!- THOSE 4 NOTES!!!! AAAAHHHHH!!!!- is Lenny gonna massacre it?? I recall liking Ashkenazy's frozen approach (apparently this was their first recording and they were all somewhat scared), and I thought I remember Haitink being a little to fast. I mean... uh... anyhow.... LENNY PASSES 5 NOTE INTRO TEST!!!! NICE & MEASURED

1) Don't hassle me about Mravinsky,... please! We'll get around to him, but I'm interested in the wider consensus right now. Reviewland is a difficult place concerning Op.47.

2) Jansons has two?..........eh?

3) Rosty has two................eh? some just haaaaaaaate both (DG gets higher marks)

4) Maxim/Collins? gets "special performance" reviews

5) Jarvi very polarizing

6) Temirkanov actually gets a GOOD review!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

7) right before the very very end, I want that triangle/celesta bit to come out of another world

8) Bychkov gets "wish Karajan would have done it- but still ok if just to hear the band"- default contender?

9) Berglund? Andrew Davis? Mackerras?

10) Sound for Lenny is totally uninspiring for this music            (listening- could he be just a shade slower in the 1st mvmt- listen to that "piano march")

11) Previn a non contender?

12) Rattle vs Jansons?

13) finally- Petrenko?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise I NEED A FIFTH!!! TWO FIFTHS!
Post by: Brahmsian on June 24, 2014, 11:15:18 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 24, 2014, 11:11:05 AM
Symphony No.5

13) finally- Petrenko?

I am a HUGE fan of Petrenko, but this is a 'no'.  :)  Although, I've warmed up to it, I think it is perhaps the weakest link in the cycle.  Having said that, this disc of the 5th is paired up with a kick ass performance of the 9th!  :)

I vastly prefer Barshai/WDR Koln for the 5th.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise I NEED A FIFTH!!! TWO FIFTHS!
Post by: Brahmsian on June 24, 2014, 11:18:39 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 24, 2014, 11:11:05 AM
Symphony No.5

So, currently we have the library's Lenny (there's only One?), and I went straight for the Finale. I couldn't remember, Does he take it too fast or too slow? My first impression is of the rough-to-my-ears recording- and yes, he's a bit fast, but not ridiculously so (and I thought this was going to be 15 mins! is that Sanderlinf again?). But, I hear nothing extra super special here- it's fast.


The one performance I have heard of Lenny's 5th (young Lenny?), the finale is so super rapid fast, that I find it renders the symphony unrecognizable.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise I NEED A FIFTH!!! TWO FIFTHS!
Post by: snyprrr on June 24, 2014, 11:26:32 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on June 24, 2014, 11:15:18 AM
I am a HUGE fan of Petrenko, but this is a 'no'.  :)  Although, I've warmed up to it, I think it is perhaps the weakest link in the cycle.  Having said that, this disc of the 5th is paired up with a kick ass performance of the 9th!  :)

I vastly prefer Barshai/WDR Koln for the 5th.

Shirley you have 9-10 metastystations of the grand olde Fifthe? I want soundSoundSOUND but I fear someone like Levi/Atlanta may sound synthetic? I need someone else to conduct the Haitink/Concertgebouw! That's all!

I have absolutely subconsciously rejected any thought of Barshai (though there is an early Virgin 10th????) AT THIS TIME because there are too many factors- I just refuse to believe there isn't another Haitink 5-styled recording that's just.... er.... proper! You know....you know!!!!

Is it always easier to say from whom to stay away?



(I'm finding Lenny's tempi fairly ok, nothing jarring so far (except the finale was just a bit fast))


Quote from: ChamberNut on June 24, 2014, 11:18:39 AM
The one performance I have heard of Lenny's 5th (young Lenny?), the finale is so super rapid fast, that I find it renders the symphony unrecognizable.
Quote from: ChamberNut on June 24, 2014, 11:18:39 AM
The one performance I have heard of Lenny's 5th (young Lenny?), the finale is so super rapid fast, that I find it renders the symphony unrecognizable.

The Sony w/9 'Bernstein Century' - same as early one right? What's "the other one"?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise I NEED A FIFTH!!! TWO FIFTHS!
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 24, 2014, 11:33:34 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 24, 2014, 11:26:32 AM
The Sony w/9 'Bernstein Century' - same as early one right? What's "the other one"?

A live recording from Tokyo...one of my Top Twos (Slava and the NSO is the other). It was recorded in 1979. I think his studio Fifth was recorded 20 years earlier. The last movement is still fast but slower than the earlier recording (10:10 vs 8:55)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/june12/shosta5bernstein.jpg)


Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Brahmsian on June 24, 2014, 11:46:10 AM
Re:  Symphony No. 5 Finale - Think of the 3 bears, and their porridge.  One is too hot, another is too cold, and the third one is 'just right'.   :D

Lenny - Too fast

Petrenko - Too slow

Barshai - Just right.   ;D


....runs away
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise I NEED A FIFTH!!! TWO FIFTHS!
Post by: trung224 on June 24, 2014, 06:25:17 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 24, 2014, 11:33:34 AM
A live recording from Tokyo...one of my Top Twos (Slava and the NSO is the other). It was recorded in 1979. I think his studio Fifth was recorded 20 years earlier. The last movement is still fast but slower than the earlier recording (10:10 vs 8:55)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/june12/shosta5bernstein.jpg)


Sarge
Fully agree with Sarge about Bernstein II or Slava I. But I can add two more , Silvestri with VPO and Sanderling with RCO (better played than the one with Berlin Symphony Orchestra on Berlin Classics).
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: kaergaard on June 24, 2014, 07:14:24 PM
Not a cycle, - I wish there would be one - : No. 10, op 93, Pavel Kogan with the Moscow State Symphony Orchestra.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise ABSOLUTELY LOST FOR THE 8TH
Post by: snyprrr on June 27, 2014, 03:06:33 PM
Symphony No.8

I think the Haitink was my very first classical music i chose to hear (library). c minor? What was there not to take a chance? So, I see the 8th is STILL fairly slim pickins', - the last one I remember coming out (in-the-day) was Bychkov on Philips, and it seems like most of the competition is quite fresh.

1) Bychkov/Philips?- anyone?- with Berlin!!

2) Jarvi gets high marks

3) Slatkin is the one I'm really curious about-mm??

4) Temirkanov also tempts, but of course with him I could be wary- anyone?

5) Petrenko sounds good, but does he not open with baH-BAAAH???

6) Mravinsky- not right now, please

7) Rattle vs Jansons MACH2

8- Gergiev's sound is highly criticized


Slim Pickins- but
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise ABSOLUTELY LOST FOR THE 8TH
Post by: Brahmsian on June 27, 2014, 03:20:00 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 27, 2014, 03:06:33 PM
Symphony No.8

I think the Haitink was my very first classical music i chose to hear (library). c minor? What was there not to take a chance? So, I see the 8th is STILL fairly slim pickins', - the last one I remember coming out (in-the-day) was Bychkov on Philips, and it seems like most of the competition is quite fresh.

1) Bychkov/Philips?- anyone?- with Berlin!!

2) Jarvi gets high marks

3) Slatkin is the one I'm really curious about-mm??

4) Temirkanov also tempts, but of course with him I could be wary- anyone?

5) Petrenko sounds good, but does he not open with baH-BAAAH???

6) Mravinsky- not right now, please

7) Rattle vs Jansons MACH2

8- Gergiev's sound is highly criticized


Slim Pickins- but

By far and away, I enjoy the Haitink/RCO over other interpretations of the 8th.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise ABSOLUTELY LOST FOR THE 8TH
Post by: snyprrr on June 27, 2014, 03:28:28 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on June 27, 2014, 03:20:00 PM
By far and away, I enjoy the Haitink/RCO over other interpretations of the 8th.

Wait- is that the new 'live' one or the OldWarhorse?

If it's the classic,... really? Nothing has come along with anything... how bout even different-yet-satisfying? I don't know why I have such an aversion to that album cover>---

I mean, it's the only one I know,- I suuure wouldn't want to be disappointed by anybody.

No Bychkov/Philips with Berlin? (I know, I'm just fishing- maybe I'll just get the Haitink from the library)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on June 27, 2014, 03:29:39 PM
I'm also considering Litton I (Virgin) for 10m though- who's this Frank Shipway character (BBC)?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise ABSOLUTELY LOST FOR THE 8TH
Post by: Brahmsian on June 27, 2014, 03:37:22 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 27, 2014, 03:28:28 PM
Wait- is that the new 'live' one or the OldWarhorse?

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-8tB1Oa9vRO4/TiBgRIPwXBI/AAAAAAAAOYM/EEDSRiUFiAk/s1600/DSC_2658.JPG)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: kishnevi on June 27, 2014, 04:43:07 PM
Slava LSO Live for both 8 and 11.  Barshai's 11 is the one in that set I do not like.
No preference in 10,  but the people who like Karajan are not wrong.  Jansons seems to me to rule 12 through 14.  The only really good DSCH I remember hearing from Gergiev is 4.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on June 27, 2014, 05:14:21 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on June 27, 2014, 03:20:00 PM
By far and away, I enjoy the Haitink/RCO over other interpretations of the 8th.

Haitink & Jansons/Pittsburgh are particularly good in the Op.65.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on June 28, 2014, 08:16:33 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 27, 2014, 05:14:21 PM
Haitink & Jansons/Pittsburgh are particularly good in the Op.65.

What.about.Solti?


And I'm still asking what's up with Bychkov/Philips since it's with Berlin (and I'm also assuming the Philips sound would be great).


WHAT A SLOG!!! I can't believe I haven't pulled this one yet... 10 and 8... ack... I'm getting bogged down in all these frankly obsessive reviews that I get sucked into- like the solitary one who convinced me Lenny was too over the top in Mahler6- ahhhh, it's going to be a loooong weekend....
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 28, 2014, 08:34:19 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 28, 2014, 08:16:33 AM

WHAT A SLOG!!! I can't believe I haven't pulled this one yet... 10 and 8... ack... I'm getting bogged down in all these frankly obsessive reviews that I get sucked into- like the solitary one who convinced me Lenny was too over the top in Mahler6- ahhhh, it's going to be a loooong weekend....

Of course Lenny's DG M6 is over the top! Why would anyone want an M6 any other way?  ;D

Okay, I like Karajan's beauty and Szell's Classical restraint (until the end where he unleashes the apocalypse), Chailly's stoic grimness. But Lenny or Solti...that's the way a Sixth should go (with three hammerblows too) if you're only getting one.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on June 28, 2014, 02:19:48 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 28, 2014, 08:34:19 AM
Of course Lenny's DG M6 is over the top! Why would anyone want an M6 any other way?  ;D

Okay, I like Karajan's beauty and Szell's Classical restraint (until the end where he unleashes the apocalypse), Chailly's stoic grimness. But Lenny or Solti...that's the way a Sixth should go (with three hammerblows too) if you're only getting one.

Sarge

Yes, I AM hearing you!! ;)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise SYMPHONY 8 TIMINGS CHART
Post by: snyprrr on June 28, 2014, 02:54:08 PM
Symphony No.8 Op.65



Kofman                    30:08     6:29     6:52     11:01     16:14
Kitajenko                  29:37     7:01     6:20     11:10     15:03

Wigglesworth           29:10    7:00     6:47     10:35     16:19


Inbal                        28:05     6:37     6:51     10:00     16:00
Gergiev2                  28:04     6:02     6:14     9:57     15:20
Previn2                    27:54     6:16     6:09    13:17     14:17
Svetlanov                 27:44     6:45     6:01     10:02     14:44
Berglund                  27:44     6:34     6:48      9:39      15:33


Sanderling               27:10     6:36     6:46     10:32     15:27
Levi                         26:52     6:29     6:09     11:13     13:23

Rostropovich'live'      26:34     6:46     7:07     12:01     16:16
Slatkin                     26:30     6:12     5:55     9:43     13:06
Jarvi                        26:28     6:42     5:54     9:54     14:28

Herbig                     26:18     6:20     6:04     10:37     14:00


Barshai(Cl-f-Pl)       25:58     6:44     6:37     9****1     14:03
Bychkov'live'            25:58     6:25     6:00     9:10     14:25
Rostropovitch          25:52     6:16    6:58     10:23     14:45
Solti                        25:45     6:30     6:27     9:42      14:32 
Gergiev1                 25:37     6:00     6:16     10:48     14:40

Rodzinsky               25:23     5:58     5:26      8:29     13:00
Petrenko                 25:12     5:55     6:12      9:34     14:47
Previn1                   25:08     5:53    5:34     11:16     13:23
Bychkov1                25:01     5:59     6:24     10:24     14:43
Ashkenazy              25:00     5:57     6:11      9:36     13:49

Mravinsky               24:40     6:17     5:54     9:29     13:30
Rozhdesventsky      24:37     6:30     7:49     9:37     13:35
Jansons                  24:29     6:27     6:20    10:02    15:10
Kondrashin(studio)  23:57     5:44     6:04     8:28     12:33
Kondrashin(live)      21:54     5:34     5:36     6:32     12:41

Caetani                  20:44     5:52     6:01      7:40    13:19
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: kishnevi on June 28, 2014, 04:05:30 PM
Slava LSO Live
26:34
6:46
7:07
12:01
16:16
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Drasko on June 29, 2014, 04:25:16 AM
Kondrashin (studio)  23:57  5:44  6:04  8:28  12:33
Kondrashin (live)       21:54  5:34  5:36  6:32  12:41
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise WHO DID I PICK FOR 8?surpriiise!
Post by: snyprrr on June 29, 2014, 06:52:59 AM
ok, I really think I was a smart cookie here. Take a lot at that list of 8s, and if you've been following the thread, tell me which 8 I picked. I will tell you its samples ROCKED me like NO OTHER (so, it has to be a 'special' performance, eh?!!), and from the moment I heard a certain something, all other versions just seemed to fall by the wayside.

I can tell you that it's one of the well known 'Best' versions, but I'm pretty sure you won't get- BUUUT- it IS an overwhelming version. If there has been ANY criticism of a performance than it's pretty sure it's not the one. A True Dark Horse (just hiding in plain sight).

For anyone who thinks they know my methods- I'm really hoping that the answer will be enlightening. (Yes, I'm craving attention this morning, haha!)

I'LL POST AFTER 8 THIS EVENING. (I'm really wanting you to say, "Oh that snyprrr, he's so thoughtful and analytical,... my what a great Picker he has!"
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on June 29, 2014, 07:07:47 AM
Quote from: Drasko on June 29, 2014, 04:25:16 AM
Kondrashin (studio)  23:57  5:44  6:04  8:28  12:33
Kondrashin (live)       21:54  5:34  5:36  6:32  12:41
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 28, 2014, 04:05:30 PM
Slava LSO Live
26:34
6:46
7:07
12:01
16:16

added

Please play my "Which 8th Did snyprrr Choose" Game. I believe the true answer will be a surprise,- but it was the best I heard overall- BY A MARGIN!!! Who could it be??? (answer is not totally obvious, but should be).

CLUE: It's not Mravinsky, just to get that out of the way (because I said "obvious")- I think price might have been a factor, but I still thought some somewhat better.

CLUE 2: Obviously there is one movement that CAN serve as a litmus test



Oh, this is gonna be fun!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Ken B on June 29, 2014, 07:20:27 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 29, 2014, 07:07:47 AM
added

Please play my "Which 8th Did snyprrr Choose" Game. I believe the true answer will be a surprise,- but it was the best I heard overall- BY A MARGIN!!! Who could it be??? (answer is not totally obvious, but should be).

CLUE: It's not Mravinsky, just to get that out of the way (because I said "obvious")- I think price might have been a factor, but I still thought some somewhat better.

CLUE 2: Obviously there is one movement that CAN serve as a litmus test



Oh, this is gonna be fun!

Previn.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise WHO DID I PICK FOR 8?surpriiise!
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2014, 07:22:33 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 29, 2014, 06:52:59 AM
For anyone who thinks they know my methods- I'm really hoping that the answer will be enlightening. (Yes, I'm craving attention this morning, haha!)

I doubt anyone knows your methods. I'm stumped anyway ;D 

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2014, 07:24:23 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 29, 2014, 07:07:47 AM
Please play my "Which 8th Did snyprrr Choose" Game.

Wigglesworth! (You usually go for the funny names, right?)

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on June 29, 2014, 05:19:18 PM
Quote from: Ken B on June 29, 2014, 07:20:27 AM
Previn.

:-[ :-[ :-[
:-[ :-[ :-[
:-[ :-[ :-[

yea, well THAT was no fun! :( >:( :laugh: :-* :P........and i'm assuming you mean the EMI? Yeeees. ::) Wow, was that a lucky guess or is it that obvious? YES OF COURSE Previn/EMI BLEW ME BAAACK!!! with that 'salad chopper' movement!! Yea, how can I hear it 'normal' ever again???

But yea, here's another view of my method. Again, for the Prokofiev 5, a Symphony which MOSTLY strives for 'nobility', and all that classy jazz, I want that Rolls treatment, all cream and gleam. But with something like DSCH 8, I NEED that scratchy, AAD, raw nastiness that I ONLY heard in the Previn/EMI (only from my pool of samples, about a baker's dozen)- well, it was here and there, but I smelled some manson in the Previn.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2014, 07:24:23 AM
Wigglesworth! (You usually go for the funny names, right?)

Sarge

Mr. Smartypants here guessed it right away! >:D Previn/EMI- I heard this Symphony speak to me from, what?, 1970?71? The raw sound sent the hairs up. I mean, look, I caaan be wrong, but- fuuuuuu- as soon as I heard that salad chopper I had to change my shorts! FUUUU!!!!!!!! :o :o :oSWEEEEEET!!

Anyhow, it sounds positively creeepy, so, I can't wait! Got the Matrix issue cheap, on the way.



I think the Wigglesworth sample failed on the salad chopper. BUT WHAT OF ROZH'S OVER 7 MINUTE??? Do you have that? I figured out that if you DO play this part slow enough to a point, every single note takes on the exact same weight so that it could sound like a demonic marchine death. Maybe the Rozh does this?

Many failed on the salad chopper, but many were too fast in the 2nd mvmt, robbing it of that Ancerl festiveness. And Wigglesworth had one of the longest 1st mvmts., and with some others in that range (30mins.!!!), I dunno,... you know?

Anyhow, i'm quite proud of my choice in Previn/EMI, but, as you can see from that Timings Chart, there are a lot of interesting takes. Trust me, I was listening and reading reviews till my head hurt,- but Previn's salad chopper was a no brainer from the instant I heard it. Only, interestingly, Rodzinsky was wilder.


Anyhow, i hope someone gains something from that chart- I think it's purdy! It raises a LOT of questions, whew.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: kishnevi on June 29, 2014, 05:25:02 PM
I was in fact going to guess Rodzinsky because he was
almost all in green,  and a suitable Dark Horse.  Kondrashin was all green but not a dark horse....and not cheap IIRC.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Ken B on June 29, 2014, 05:36:59 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 29, 2014, 05:19:18 PM
:-[ :-[ :-[
:-[ :-[ :-[
:-[ :-[ :-[

yea, well THAT was no fun! :( >:( :laugh: :-* :P........and i'm assuming you mean the EMI? Yeeees. ::) Wow, was that a lucky guess or is it that obvious? YES OF COURSE Previn/EMI BLEW ME BAAACK!!! with that 'salad chopper' movement!! Yea, how can I hear it 'normal' ever again???

But yea, here's another view of my method. Again, for the Prokofiev 5, a Symphony which MOSTLY strives for 'nobility', and all that classy jazz, I want that Rolls treatment, all cream and gleam. But with something like DSCH 8, I NEED that scratchy, AAD, raw nastiness that I ONLY heard in the Previn/EMI (only from my pool of samples, about a baker's dozen)- well, it was here and there, but I smelled some manson in the Previn.

Mr. Smartypants here guessed it right away! >:D Previn/EMI- I heard this Symphony speak to me from, what?, 1970?71? The raw sound sent the hairs up. I mean, look, I caaan be wrong, but- fuuuuuu- as soon as I heard that salad chopper I had to change my shorts! FUUUU!!!!!!!! :o :o :oSWEEEEEET!!

Anyhow, it sounds positively creeepy, so, I can't wait! Got the Matrix issue cheap, on the way.



I think the Wigglesworth sample failed on the salad chopper. BUT WHAT OF ROZH'S OVER 7 MINUTE??? Do you have that? I figured out that if you DO play this part slow enough to a point, every single note takes on the exact same weight so that it could sound like a demonic marchine death. Maybe the Rozh does this?

Many failed on the salad chopper, but many were too fast in the 2nd mvmt, robbing it of that Ancerl festiveness. And Wigglesworth had one of the longest 1st mvmts., and with some others in that range (30mins.!!!), I dunno,... you know?

Anyhow, i'm quite proud of my choice in Previn/EMI, but, as you can see from that Timings Chart, there are a lot of interesting takes. Trust me, I was listening and reading reviews till my head hurt,- but Previn's salad chopper was a no brainer from the instant I heard it. Only, interestingly, Rodzinsky was wilder.


Anyhow, i hope someone gains something from that chart- I think it's purdy! It raises a LOT of questions, whew.

Once you get past the "it has to be a russian" prejudice Previn is the name on the list, russians included, most likely to give a great performance of that piece; it is right in his wheelhouse.  I have not heard any on the list but Barshai, btw.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on June 29, 2014, 05:39:33 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 29, 2014, 05:25:02 PM
I was in fact going to guess Rodzinsky because he was
almost all in green,  and a suitable Dark Horse.  Kondrashin was all green but not a dark horse....and not cheap IIRC.

Everyone on this forum is mad for Perfection- of course we all think alike on certain wavelengths! And even when Perfections Clash, boom!, even stranger things happen!

I would love to hear that Rozh 7:40min. salad chopper! vs. Kondrashin 5:35!!!! hahaha- there's the whole world in a nutshell for ya! People are people

Quote from: Ken B on June 29, 2014, 05:36:59 PM
Once you get past the "it has to be a russian" prejudice Previn is the name on the list, russians included, most likely to give a great performance of that piece; it is right in his wheelhouse.  I have not heard any on the list but Barshai, btw.


Oh? You've heard the Barshai Classics-for-Pleasure? Do tell! I certainly couldn't find any samples- and I suppose he could go either way (but I'm a sucker for rare EMI and such). what's the skinny?




DSCH is a Composer where Timings DO tell SOME of the tale, so, yes, it was certainly worthwhile for me to put things plainly on one page- everyone's an expert when they can just look at it for themselves and see- oh- ok- there it is! poof! done! I thank Our Lord Jesus Christ
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise IS MAXIM"S 5th TOO SLOW?
Post by: snyprrr on June 29, 2014, 05:47:03 PM
Is it Maxim who is 26:34 in the 1st mvmt. of the 5th? (LSO)? I mean,... reeealy ::) does stuff like that actually work?? No, maxim is ONLY 19:19
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Ken B on June 29, 2014, 05:51:01 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 29, 2014, 05:39:33 PM
Everyone on this forum is mad for Perfection- of course we all think alike on certain wavelengths! And even when Perfections Clash, boom!, even stranger things happen!

I would love to hear that Rozh 7:40min. salad chopper! vs. Kondrashin 5:35!!!! hahaha- there's the whole world in a nutshell for ya! People are people

Oh? You've heard the Barshai Classics-for-Pleasure? Do tell! I certainly couldn't find any samples- and I suppose he could go either way (but I'm a sucker for rare EMI and such). what's the skinny?




DSCH is a Composer where Timings DO tell SOME of the tale, so, yes, it was certainly worthwhile for me to put things plainly on one page- everyone's an expert when they can just look at it for themselves and see- oh- ok- there it is! poof! done! I thank Our Lord Jesus Christ

Cfp? Then no, I have the Barshai Brilliant. So I have heard none of your candidates, yet honed in your choice. Cool huh?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on June 29, 2014, 06:00:49 PM
Quote from: Ken B on June 29, 2014, 05:51:01 PM
Cfp? Then no, I have the Barshai Brilliant. So I have heard none of your candidates, yet honed in your choice. Cool huh?

As a consolation prize-

What do you think is the secret of the 1st mvmt of the 5th? I think it's when the piano comes in with that 'walking' figure, real sinister. In my head i hear it played correctly at two tempi, one on the faster side of the node, one on the slower side. If all samples simply played this part we'd know a good portion of how the mvmt is going, eh? I haven't heard an 'off' one yet (only Haitink, Bernstein later, Ashkenazy*) but the mvmt goes from 14:18 (Ancerl) to 19:19 (M.DSCH). I don't even want to know what a bad performance could possibly sound like,... all draggy,... but maybe it works? I don't know... it's late and the caffe's wearing offfffzzzzzzZZZzzz... zzZZzzz... uh...ZZZzzz.. zzz..
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on June 30, 2014, 02:05:09 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 29, 2014, 05:47:03 PM
Is it Maxim who is 26:34 in the 1st mvmt. of the 5th? (LSO)? I mean,... reeealy ::) does stuff like that actually work?? No, maxim is ONLY 19:19

Also, mustn't go simply by timing with his last movements in the Supraphon box, as there is post-symphony applause.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 30, 2014, 03:55:11 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 29, 2014, 05:19:18 PM
I think the Wigglesworth sample failed on the salad chopper. BUT WHAT OF ROZH'S OVER 7 MINUTE??? Do you have that? I figured out that if you DO play this part slow enough to a point, every single note takes on the exact same weight so that it could sound like a demonic marchine death. Maybe the Rozh does this?

It's not actually 7+ minutes. The tracks are screwed up on the Melodiya  CD. Track 3 is the "salad chopper" of course but it includes the first minute or so of the Largo too before the fourth track kicks in. Rozh's actually timing is 6:42 (the point where the snare drum roll begins, leading into the Largo). It disappointed me when I first heard it. I thought I would be getting an exceptionally slow Allegretto non troppo, but no, it it isn't anything out of the ordinary...although the transition into the Largo is pretty intense.

I haven't heard Wigglesworth (so I can't answer your questions about it) or Previn.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on June 30, 2014, 08:03:26 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 30, 2014, 02:05:09 AM
Also, mustn't go simply by timing with his last movements in the Supraphon box, as there is post-symphony applause.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 30, 2014, 03:55:11 AM
It's not actually 7+ minutes. The tracks are screwed up on the Melodiya  CD. Track 3 is the "salad chopper" of course but it includes the first minute or so of the Largo too before the fourth track kicks in. Rozh's actually timing is 6:42 (the point where the snare drum roll begins, leading into the Largo). It disappointed me when I first heard it. I thought I would be getting an exceptionally slow Allegretto non troppo, but no, it it isn't anything out of the ordinary...although the transition into the Largo is pretty intense.

I haven't heard Wigglesworth (so I can't answer your questions about it) or Previn.

Sarge

Ah- points taken


However guys- what about that Caetani going for the land speed record? The reviews weren't too kind, though the sound was counted spectacular, and, I'm sure there were some ideas there.

Ideas. Things Conductors have.

I'm of the mind that Conductors should takes each others ideas seriously so that with each new version, they keep building on the piece's 'canon law' until, maybe, we get to transcendence. The 5th's 'testimony' ending being an obvious example that has been picked up.



:( - waiting on the library AND the mail man :( - tap tap tap   



(what? listen to something I got last week?? are you kidding me???)



Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on June 30, 2014, 08:50:00 AM
I've only heard Caetani in the Fourth, Ninth & Tenth.  In these, he was very good.  I seem to recall his doing some moderately unusual things in the Fourth, but they were not gratuitous, he made them work musically.  (Now that I say that, I want to revisit that recording . . . .)

In any event, I've not heard his Op.65!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 30, 2014, 09:13:51 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 30, 2014, 08:03:26 AM
However guys- what about that Caetani going for the land speed record? The reviews weren't too kind, though the sound was counted spectacular, and, I'm sure there were some ideas there.

I have the CD but I don't think I've ever listened to it...not with any concentration anyway. Maybe I'll give it a go tonight after dinner...and before the German/Algeria match.

Edit: the Hurwitzer gives it good marks. The review begins: "This excellent performance succeeds in recapturing the "glory days" (musically speaking) of Kondrashin and Mravinsky."

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on June 30, 2014, 09:22:06 AM
Quote from: Hurwitzer
This excellent performance succeeds in recapturing the “glory days” (musically speaking) of Kondrashin and Mravinsky.

I wonder why he felt he needed to add that parenthesis.  In the context, it could mean nothing else.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: André on June 30, 2014, 11:11:26 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 30, 2014, 09:22:06 AM
I wonder why he felt he needed to add that parenthesis.  In the context, it could mean nothing else.

The inverted commas are useless as well, are they not ? Unless he meant it to suggest some ironic, pejorative intent?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on June 30, 2014, 11:15:24 AM
Quote from: André on June 30, 2014, 11:11:26 AM
The inverted commas are useless as well, are they not ? Unless he meant it to suggest some ironic, pejorative intent?

Indeed!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: North Star on June 30, 2014, 11:22:55 AM
As in, the not really golden days musically, but golden days otherwise, in the good old Soviet Union. Oh yes.. :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise KARAJAN 10 CLARINET
Post by: snyprrr on June 30, 2014, 03:05:17 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 30, 2014, 11:15:24 AM
Indeed!

Does anyone even match Karajan's clarinet player in the 2nd 10? You know when they enter into the fast part of the finale?- I mean, it's like a u.f.o. or something. I've never heard anything quite so yummy. By comparison, Ashkenazy's player ends up playing JAZZ! (still ok), and Litton's, in his first recording for Virgin, didn't really register (I also immediately dismissed this fine performance because the clarinet didn't 'ghost in- just so' 2mins. into the 1st mvmt. (you know, the part we all love, I'm sure!- so, it IS important!). I ordered the Shipway/BBC 10- frankly, I probably just should get the Karajan Remaster (can you tell me of any improvements to the somewhat ok early DG DDD?).


Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 30, 2014, 09:13:51 AM
I have the CD but I don't think I've ever listened to it...not with any concentration anyway. Maybe I'll give it a go tonight after dinner...and before the German/Algeria match.

Edit: the Hurwitzer gives it good marks. The review begins: "This excellent performance succeeds in recapturing the "glory days" (musically speaking) of Kondrashin and Mravinsky."

Sarge

Just ordered Sanderling/Cleveland 15- I get the feeling Jansons is getting the cut. :( (fine though it is in parts)


The Litton/Virgin 10- mm, eh- it was fine, but, ee, uh, mm,... comparing it to Karajan yielded no real answer (other than Karajan's sound was a little more up front). He lost me at that crucial clarinet intro- Karajan's player has spoiled us all, haha!!- so, it was hard to keep going (aye- I'm SOOOO dismissive!!). ON THE PILE IT GOES!! ('that' pile)

If I'm going to get any more 10ths- it MUST have everything  and more that Karajan's has, with even better sound and (please) dynamic levels (the quiet passages are ridiculous in the original, NOT 'The Originals'- is that latter one any better sonically?), and the flippin' clarinet better be right!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on June 30, 2014, 04:39:30 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on June 22, 2014, 11:22:23 AM
I think that would be a mistake.  Good to the last drop!  :)

Petrenko's 4th is starting to call!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on June 30, 2014, 04:42:08 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 02, 2014, 09:07:05 AM
Symphony No.4


The 'Spectacular Ones'

Salonen/DG
Chung/DG
Jansons/EMI
Rattle/EMI
Gergiev/Philips
Rostropovich/Teldec


Haitink/London
Ashkenazy/Decca
Ashenazy II/Decca (w/Japanese orch.)

Jarvi/Chandos


Other Current Top Choices

Rozhd./RussianDisc (1980s)
M.Shostakovich/Supraphon
Haitink/CSOResound



Labels with Good Engineering Reputations

Kofman/MDG
Boreyko/Hanssler


Two Odd Ducks

Herbig/Berlin
Kegel/Weitblick


The Rest of the Modern, High Profile Recordings

"more info"

Barshai/Brilliant
Petrenko/Naxos
Caetani/Arts
Slovak/Naxos
Bychkov/Avie
Raiskin/Cavi-Music
Inbal/Denon

"less info"

Polyansky/VistaVera
Wigglesworth/BIS
Judd/NuevaEra
Simonov/Cypres
Venzago/MusiquesSuisse


The Three Americans

Ormandy/SONY
Slatkin/RCA
Previn/EMI


The Originals

Rozhd./Alliance (1962)
Kondrashin/Profil (1960s)
Kondrtashin/Melodya-BMG
---/Regis-TransitionsLive???
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise 2 GERGIEV 4s??? ok.....
Post by: snyprrr on June 30, 2014, 06:37:34 PM
I wasn't paying attention. So there are two Gergiev 4s. All the raves are for the Kirov,... but... the Mariinsky samples sounded better? Which is the one everyone creams over?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Ken B on June 30, 2014, 06:55:30 PM
Quote from: André on June 30, 2014, 11:11:26 AM
The inverted commas are useless as well, are they not ? Unless he meant it to suggest some ironic, pejorative intent?
"The" Hurwitzer? (Surely) you jest.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise 2 GERGIEV 4s??? ok.....
Post by: kishnevi on June 30, 2014, 07:09:39 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 30, 2014, 06:37:34 PM
I wasn't paying attention. So there are two Gergiev 4s. All the raves are for the Kirov,... but... the Mariinsky samples sounded better? Which is the one everyone creams over?
Kirov on Philips.  Look at the release date for the Mariinsky and you will see why.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 01, 2014, 01:50:05 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 30, 2014, 06:37:34 PM
I wasn't paying attention. So there are two Gergiev 4s. All the raves are for the Kirov,... but... the Mariinsky samples sounded better? Which is the one everyone creams over?

The Kirov is the Mariinsky (I mean, the theatre/orchestra;  there may, or there may not, be two recordings).  The theatre was named after Tsar Aleksandr II's wife, Maria Aleksandrovna;  in the Soviet era it was renamed after Kirov, the leader of the Leningrad Communist Party whom Stalin had murdered early on in his power-securing days . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 01, 2014, 01:54:09 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 01, 2014, 01:50:05 AM
The Kirov is the Mariinsky (I mean, the theatre/orchestra;  there may, or there may not, be two recordings).  The theatre was named after Tsar Aleksandr II's wife, Maria Aleksandrovna;  in the Soviet era it was renamed after Kirov, the leader of the Leningrad Communist Party whom Stalin had murdered early on in his power-securing days . . . .

Hey! Something useful on Wikipedia:  a chart (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariinsky_Theatre) of the succession of names for the theatre/company.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: aukhawk on July 01, 2014, 02:21:16 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 30, 2014, 08:03:26 AM
However guys- what about that Caetani going for the land speed record?

I like Caetani's recording of the 8th very much.  My main points of comparison being Previn (I still have the LP) who is very good, and Haitink, who I find just too 'un-Russian' for Shostakovich generally.  But my go-to now for the 8th would be Caetani.  The speed doesn't bother me, given that it is a feature of most of his recordings*, and given that the 8th is inclined to bombast, the speed lightens it up a little.

* his high-speed 1st is a riot!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 01, 2014, 04:04:49 AM
Dude, it was Haitink made me love the Op.65! Just sayin'.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 01, 2014, 04:34:27 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on June 27, 2014, 03:20:00 PM
By far and away, I enjoy the Haitink/RCO over other interpretations of the 8th.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/thumbup.jpg)

Quote from: karlhenning on June 27, 2014, 05:14:21 PM
Haitink [is] particularly good in the Op.65.

I think so too. It's long been my favorite. Spectacular Decca sound. Haitink's Toccata chops greens as well as anyone's and it's the most terrifying I've ever heard.

Quote from: aukhawk on July 01, 2014, 02:21:16 AM
I like Caetani's recording of the 8th very much.  My main points of comparison being Previn (I still have the LP) who is very good, and Haitink, who I find just too 'un-Russian' for Shostakovich generally.  But my go-to now for the 8th would be Caetani.

I disagree with you about Haitink but yeah, Caetani is special. His "fast" slow movements work well (especially the Largo) in integrating the whole. And like Haitink, he gets awesome sound from the engineers; the percussion really impressive.

I might have to order Previn EMI though. snyprrr has me interested.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on July 01, 2014, 11:47:40 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 01, 2014, 01:50:05 AM
The Kirov is the Mariinsky (I mean, the theatre/orchestra;  there may, or there may not, be two recordings).  The theatre was named after Tsar Aleksandr II's wife, Maria Aleksandrovna;  in the Soviet era it was renamed after Kirov, the leader of the Leningrad Communist Party whom Stalin had murdered early on in his power-securing days . . . .

ok.... but.... there's still two...

This is a new one just being released NEXT WEEK? The samples definitely indicate two different performances. And so, everyone's all gaga over this OLD one, when the new one sounds like it's going to bring on a tidal wave of hysteria?

poor snyprrr, it's already been a long week... too... much... intellectual strain... for such... a ... small... m...m..mm.mmmm
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise SYMPHONY NO.1 O\p.10
Post by: snyprrr on July 01, 2014, 11:57:22 AM
Frankly, Ormandy's Allegro (2nd mvmvt) sample from the Op.10 was simply the freshest recording I've heard in quite a while. What IS up with this? Surely one of you have it and can spin it just to be sure- but my!- such a nice recording.

I've been sampling a lot of that fast movement- they always pick up around the piano slide- and really most everyone does a fine job. Again, Ormandy made a strong sonic impression, the old Haitink was quite zippy with delicious sonics, and Petrenko seemed fresh too. But, most everyone else was just as good, don't think anyone did any extreme tempo statements.

Op.10 is really only highlighted as a "single symphony" on that Ormandy disc? No- I think there's a couple of others too who just did a single Op.10. It's another one that I could handle any exciting performance, outre or not. (though I don't know of any Sleepers- though they say Caetani takes it real fast).
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: kishnevi on July 01, 2014, 12:11:37 PM
Just to unconfuse.
The Mariinsky inhouse label is releasing a double CD of Gergiev conducting 4, 5, and 6 on SACD hybrid.  It is already available in the UK, and will be released in the USA in another week or so.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise SYMPHONY 5 TIMINGS CHART
Post by: snyprrr on July 01, 2014, 06:46:22 PM
Symphony No.5 op.47



Wigglesworth                   19:29     5:22      15:32     11:08
M.Shostakovitch/Supr.     19:19*     5:06     14:18     12:50
Haitink                             18:06     5:26      15:45     10:36
Petrenko                          17:58     5:08      15:30     12:47
Maazel                             17:58    4:58      14:28        9:21
Bernstein(Tokyo)              17:40     5:20      15:58     10:10
Ashkenazy2                      17:36     5:31      15:32     11:49

Previn(RCA)                     17:25    4:58      15:58        9:43

Levi                                 16:50     5:25      15:31      11:09
Mitropoulos                      16:49     5:15      14:32      8:47
Mravinsky1938                 16:45     5:38      14:18      11:01



Ashkenazy1/Decca           16:33     5:17      14:44      10:57
Jarvi                                16:23     5:22      14:20      10:50

Bernstein2                       16:13     5:28      15:34        8:55




Solti'live'(the Decca)        15:29     5:19      12:27       10:17
Rostropovich/DG             15:25     5:33     12:48        11:48
Mravinsky1984                15:00     5:10     13:09        10:52
Sanderling                      14:59     5:28     13:31       10:22
Rostropovich/Teldec        14:55     5:27     12:49        12:04
Mravinsky1973                14:50     5:05     13:05       11:08
Mravinsky1978                14:45     5:05     12:25       10:15



Ancerl                            14:18     5:34     13:01        10:11
Kondrashin                     13:37     5:16      12:08      10:46
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Drasko on July 02, 2014, 01:18:14 AM
Mravinsky '38  16:45  5:38  14:18  11:01
Mravinsky '73  14:50  5:05  13:05  11:08
Mravinsky '78  14:45  5:05  12:25  10:15
Bernstein '59  16:13  4:54   15:33   8:55
Mitropoulos     16:49  5:15  14:32   8:47
Kondrashin     13:37  5:16  12:08  10:46
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: amw on July 02, 2014, 03:31:17 AM
Ash/Philharmonia 14:59 / 5:28 / 13:31 / 10:22
Sandy/Berlin 17:36 / 5:31 / 15:32 / 11:49
Wiggles/Wales 19:29 / 5:22 / 15:32 / 11:08

I think these were the ones I thought most interesting last time I listened.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 02, 2014, 03:51:48 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 01, 2014, 06:46:22 PM
Symphony No.5 op.47

M.Shostakovitch/Supr.     19:19*     5:06     14:18     12:50

I remember really enjoying this one (no surprise);  will revisit it today, and I can advise how much of that 12:50 for the last movement we should shave off for the applause.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on July 02, 2014, 06:38:39 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 01, 2014, 12:11:37 PM
Just to unconfuse.
The Mariinsky inhouse label is releasing a double CD of Gergiev conducting 4, 5, and 6 on SACD hybrid.  It is already available in the UK, and will be released in the USA in another week or so.

So far that I've listened to it, sadly not a great improvement... At least not with No.4. Some very nice bits, and then some less involving moments make for a very good performance, but not a stunner. More or less the same for Five. Six is excellent; witty.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on July 02, 2014, 06:54:55 AM
Quote from: amw on July 02, 2014, 03:31:17 AM
Ash/Philharmonia 14:59 / 5:28 / 13:31 / 10:22
Sandy/Berlin 17:36 / 5:31 / 15:32 / 11:49
Wiggles/Wales 19:29 / 5:22 / 15:32 / 11:08

I think these were the ones I thought most interesting last time I listened.

Sandy Wiggles Ash???????wtf?????who are these... these... people????
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise SLAVA 13th????????
Post by: snyprrr on July 02, 2014, 07:30:55 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 26, 2014, 05:51:56 PM


Can you just give me the facts concerning the Slava 13 on Erato, please? Does it compete? I just can''t find a review... :(
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 02, 2014, 07:51:21 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 02, 2014, 06:54:55 AM
Sandy Wiggles Ash? ??? ???wtf? ??? ?who are these... these... people? ???

At a guess:

Sanderling
Ashkenazy
Piggly-Wiggly . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on July 02, 2014, 08:36:30 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 02, 2014, 07:51:21 AM
At a guess:

Sanderling
Ashkenazy
Piggly-Wiggly . . . .


drrrrr  errrr duuuuh

wow!- need to up the caffeine intake this morning! :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ haha! what a maroon!!




So- any objections to Kamu in the 13th? Well, too late- and only after I murdered the BuyItNow! button did I see that his speeds are ALL SLOWER THAN HAITINK!! haha1- but Grady Harp likes him, so,... uh,... right? I have a good feeling about it. (and frankly, it was either this or the Shallon with Shirley-Quirk (I may still have to try that- one of the few I like to hear sing).


ALSO- I'm seriously considering Mackerras in the 5th (Royal Phil.).- Say something NOOOW!! or it too will be too late. :'( (though, seriously, I'm thinking of also retrieving my Ashkenazy/Decca 5th- I know it's not the most mostest, but I always liked that presentation).


QUICKLY- I'M BLEEDING OUT AS WE SPEAK!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 02, 2014, 08:45:37 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 02, 2014, 07:30:55 AM
Can you just give me the facts concerning the Slava 13 on Erato, please? Does it compete?

Back when I did a survey of Thirteenths, I seem to remember liking Slava very well here . . . let's see if I cannot scare that up . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 02, 2014, 08:47:31 AM
. . . or did I dream it? . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 02, 2014, 08:57:41 AM
I'm sure I've mentioned it being my favorite 13th.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on July 02, 2014, 09:11:23 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 02, 2014, 08:57:41 AM
I'm sure I've mentioned it being my favorite 13th.

Sarge

Ahhh, now you know that's just the kind of language we don't allow around here!! :laugh:

Seriously, 1) tempos + sound are decent?  2) the bass is awesome?  3) the choir can fake Russian well?



btw- I really sat down with Slava 5/Teldec (YT), and, mm, I don't know how well I handled that Finale. Perhaps the DG is just a little tighter there, but this one, and don't get me wrong- I WAS going along with the tempo drop, but it seemed to go on for a bit more than I anticipated. If this is what he wanted to do he should have totally dragged it out like I'm guessing Petrenko does. I DO like the idea of Slava/DG with all the history blah blah, but some are saying Jarvi handles the slow down fabulously. Anyhow- you think the Mackerras raves will pan out? (it's only a flippin penny after all) I'm almost pushing buttons...


Son, put the DSCH 5 down and step away from the computer... I won't warn you again!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise MAXIM/SUPRAPHON 4th
Post by: snyprrr on July 02, 2014, 09:14:30 AM
Am I reaching the end of this mania, or has it only begun? :(


The reviews for Maxim's Supraphon 4 talk about a "bad mushroom trip"- as if I could resist wording like that. The Prague is the "lowliest" orchestra I would consider for such a demanding piece (though, obviously, someone like Berlin might be too nice for this?).


Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 02, 2014, 09:17:58 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 02, 2014, 09:11:23 AM
Son, put the DSCH 5 down and step away from the computer... I won't warn you again!

Your timing is exemplary . . . just listening now to the Op.47 as conducted by Maksim Dmitriyevich.  The first movement (which, BTW, is marked Moderato . . . and, arguably, many conductors, lured by the emotional potential of those leaping dotted-rhythms, push it a bit) I find poignant in restraint like this, makes the development section with the piano entrance sound nervier, more excited.  Finding this a particularly poetic reading of the movement.  He doesn't slow back as much as some others do, when the side-drum-&-timpani tattoo comes in.

Whenever Sarge gets around to this set, I think he may rank this Fifth quite highly.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 02, 2014, 09:21:14 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 02, 2014, 09:14:30 AM
Am I reaching the end of this mania, or has it only begun? :(


The reviews for Maxim's Supraphon 4 talk about a "bad mushroom trip"- as if I could resist wording like that. The Prague is the "lowliest" orchestra I would consider for such a demanding piece (though, obviously, someone like Berlin might be too nice for this?).

Maybe you've heard me say this half a dozen times before (or, maybe not), but there are stretches of that recording which are about the best I have ever heard the piece.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 02, 2014, 09:25:20 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 02, 2014, 09:17:58 AM
Your timing is exemplary . . . just listening now to the Op.47 as conducted by Maksim Dmitriyevich.  The first movement (which, BTW, is marked Moderato . . . and, arguably, many conductors, lured by the emotional potential of those leaping dotted-rhythms, push it a bit) I find poignant in restraint like this, makes the development section with the piano entrance sound nervier, more excited.  Finding this a particularly poetic reading of the movement.  He doesn't slow back as much as some others do, when the side-drum-&-timpani tattoo comes in.

Whenever Sarge gets around to this set, I think he may rank this Fifth quite highly.

And the quiet, dance-like coda of the first movement . . . here, too, Maksim Dmitriyevich takes it perhaps slower than I recall anyone else.  There is something tender and endearing in the character here;  and the exquisite iciness of the orchestra here, snypsss, will convince you how very fine a group this can be.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on July 02, 2014, 09:33:20 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 02, 2014, 09:25:20 AM
And the quiet, dance-like coda of the first movement . . . here, too, Maksim Dmitriyevich takes it perhaps slower than I recall anyone else.  There is something tender and endearing in the character here;  and the exquisite iciness of the orchestra here, snypsss, will convince you how very fine a group this can be.

ooppps, screwed up the 'Insert Quote'- hope this reads- yes, so Maxim/Supraphon 5? mmm.......... and I see you're confirming the 4th. (you have the set or just those singles?- I know the 15th got top billing in the deathmatch but I can't get the set just for that- the 4th is a good stand alone though I guess).

Still, it looks like I'll give Mackerras a go at 5. Can't be all bad for a penny? It's 'live' with the Royal Phil. (same as Ashkenazy/Decca).


btw- I'm becoming obsessed with that piano figure in the 1st mvmt- bm-bm-bm     bm-bm-bm    bm-bm-bm    bm-bm-bm

Seriously, I need some ExLax for my DSCH constipation! It's like it's 1992 all over again and I've gone DSCH crazy. I thought I had put him to rest and moved on? Well, I must admit he writes the best Beethoven music I've heard, and he's a very "human" Composer writing things that speak directly the the Heart of Man. eh, I can't think of any other Composer I'd want to album-research (for some of you others it's Mahler or Beethoven).


1 - concerned, but not concerned

2&3

4- here's one piece of music I think I could stand a few perspectives on- and there sure are a lot of helpful conductors in this one

5- why do I still care? I still do, so, don't ask- not taking to the 'Testament' ending too well, though

6- don't care (I'd just get Jarvi again)

7- NEVER HEARD IT, DON'T CARE

8-

9-

10- having problems here, this one could get messy

11- don't care (have Stokowski)

12

13- too many odd duck choices, could get expensive

14- I don't care, so WHY do I care??? again, too many choice and it could get expensive

15- awaiting Sanderling/Cleveland...... loved the Ashkenazy..... Jansons was just too 'nice' for me and the awesome sound seemed to DETRACT from the fetid musty death air (just heard the non-Dresden Kondrashin which REALLY creeped me out!!). I'd like to Collect the 15th, many many interesting recordings I'd like to try...




What a brutal regiment i have set myself up for. :'( hack... and slice.... and chop... and hack
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 02, 2014, 09:43:52 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 02, 2014, 09:11:23 AM
Ahhh, now you know that's just the kind of language we don't allow around here!! :laugh:

Seriously, 1) tempos + sound are decent?  2) the bass is awesome?  3) the choir can fake Russian well?

I know...I really haven't helped you but I'm in the middle of cooking a very complicated (or rather, labor intensive) dinner for Mrs. Rock and I can only get to the computer in brief spurts...not long enough to go into detail about that performance. Just take my word for it ;)  (yeah, right  :laugh: )


Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 02, 2014, 09:45:51 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 02, 2014, 09:33:20 AM
. . . yes, so Maxim/Supraphon 5? mmm.......... and I see you're confirming the 4th. (you have the set or just those singles?- I know the 15th got top billing in the deathmatch but I can't get the set just for that- the 4th is a good stand alone though I guess).

I do have the set;  but I bought the Fourth as a single first.  On the strength of that 'un, I knew I should spring for the set.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 02, 2014, 10:01:32 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 02, 2014, 09:33:20 AM
7- NEVER HEARD IT, DON'T CARE

The recording that convinced me, at a time when I was firmly jaded against the piece . . . to the side of the Grand Hall of the Philharmonic in Arts Square in Petersburg, there is (or was) a shoe-box shop, where I bought a cassette of Yuri Temirkanov leading the St Petersburg Phil.  (You can get a Used - Good copy on Amazon marketplace for $0.41.)  I had a "preview" to write for the expatriate English-language weekly newspaper, and (making an effort to be a Good Scout) I wanted to listen to the entire piece before writing about it.  I probably still only half-listened to the first movement on that occasion.  But the middle movements transfixed me.  I must have listened to them five times before proceeding to the last movement (and the writing of my article).

When I was back in the States (and still in the ambivalent condition of liking three of the movements of the Op.60), a virtual acquaintance spoke as if he simply thought the whole piece great; so I asked, WHO???

His answer:  Ančerl/Cz Phil.  Which, the monaural recording notwithstanding, is indeed a marvelous account of the piece.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 02, 2014, 10:05:52 AM
Well, I'll be . . . I expect I posted this as a review on Amazon, but I turned up this Word doc which was my "notebook":

Shostakovich thirteenth Haitink

The story goes that Shostakovich read Yevtushenko's poem "Babi Yar" in a journal, and immediately wanted to set it to music, and in fact he had practically done the work when he called the poet for permission to use the poem.  Then began a kind of collaborative process in which Yevtushenko wrote four other poems, so that settings of the five would together comprise a symphony for orchestra, solo bass and men's chorus.

The first movement is so marvelously dramatic, and so perfectly complements the text, that anything I might say would be superfluous.  Shostakovich's talent for building "brute textures" here has full play, in music of searing directness and simplicity.

"Humor" is a heavy-booted scherzo for the second movement;  a little too heavy perhaps, though it absolutely serves the text (rulers have commanded parades, demonstrating their might, but they cannot command humor, which is always a power of the people).

Where in his eighth symphony, Shostakovich wrote a symphony with two scherzi, here in the thirteenth, he pulls off two slow movements.  The first of these, "In the Store", begins with a low-string monologue, establishing a long-breathed rhythm which is maintained throughout.  Most of the movement is fairly quiet, like the lives of the Russian women whose strength and perseverance is commemorated in the poem, and who bore the brunt of the injustices and hardships of the Soviet era.  A long crescendo builds to accentuate indignation at their treatment by self-interested merchants ("It is shameful to short-change them, It is sinful to short-weight them").

Such were the circumstances of his life, that Shostakovich refined the writing of gloomy music to an intense degree;  the opening of the fourth movement, "Fears," with its seemingly aimless muffled tuba, grumbles in the percussion played so softly that you strain to hear them, a keening melody in the low strings, and then the men's choir coming in on a monotone, "Fears are dying out in Russia" ... in a way personally unfortunate for the composer, but artistically fortunate for the world, Shostakovich had been prepared by long years to write just such a chilling passage of musical understatement.

The last movement, "A Career" alternates between a tired, and almost strangely complacent, waltz theme introduced by the flute, and a bumptious setting of the text itself, so that when the bass solo and the men's choir are present, the feeling of the second movement ("Humor") is distantly recalled. But the bouncy music evolves into a fughetta, which turns edgy with the horn entrance;  this subsides into a graver mood for the voices ("Those who hurled curses have been forgotten, We remember the ones they cursed").  The bells which opened the symphony come back, softer, the nostalgic waltz returns in the strings ... at the last, a final toll of the bell dies away into silence.

Marius Rintzler has a fine voice, and the chorus sound fine as well;  their Russian pronunciation could be better, but is fair for the most part.  The Concertgebouw Orchestra sound fabulous.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 02, 2014, 10:12:49 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 01, 2014, 06:46:22 PM
Symphony No.5 op.47
M.Shostakovitch/Supr.     19:19*     5:06     14:18     12:50

Timing of the fourth movement is actually 12:20.  (And that is the duration of the track;  the symphony opens disc 5, and is followed by the Op.70.)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 02, 2014, 11:33:55 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 02, 2014, 09:33:20 AM
5- why do I still care? I still do, so, don't ask- not taking to the 'Testament' ending too well, though

Then go for Lenny live in Tokyo. If Mirror Image were still on board the Classical Express (instead of in prog rock purgatory), he'd insist, badger you to death, actually, until you finally ordered that one  ;D  I'd agree with him.

Quote from: snyprrr on July 02, 2014, 09:33:20 AM
15- awaiting Sanderling/Cleveland...... loved the Ashkenazy..... Jansons was just too 'nice' for me and the awesome sound seemed to DETRACT from the fetid musty death air (just heard the non-Dresden Kondrashin which REALLY creeped me out!!). I'd like to Collect the 15th, many many interesting recordings I'd like to try...)

Yes, you need several Fifteenths, including Kondrashin.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on July 02, 2014, 12:50:40 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 02, 2014, 10:05:52 AM
Well, I'll be . . . I expect I posted this as a review on Amazon, but I turned up this Word doc which was my "notebook":

Shostakovich thirteenth Haitink

The story goes that Shostakovich read Yevtushenko's poem "Babi Yar" in a journal, and immediately wanted to set it to music, and in fact he had practically done the work when he called the poet for permission to use the poem.  Then began a kind of collaborative process in which Yevtushenko wrote four other poems, so that settings of the five would together comprise a symphony for orchestra, solo bass and men's chorus.

The first movement is so marvelously dramatic, and so perfectly complements the text, that anything I might say would be superfluous.  Shostakovich's talent for building "brute textures" here has full play, in music of searing directness and simplicity.

"Humor" is a heavy-booted scherzo for the second movement;  a little too heavy perhaps, though it absolutely serves the text (rulers have commanded parades, demonstrating their might, but they cannot command humor, which is always a power of the people).

Where in his eighth symphony, Shostakovich wrote a symphony with two scherzi, here in the thirteenth, he pulls off two slow movements.  The first of these, "In the Store", begins with a low-string monologue, establishing a long-breathed rhythm which is maintained throughout.  Most of the movement is fairly quiet, like the lives of the Russian women whose strength and perseverance is commemorated in the poem, and who bore the brunt of the injustices and hardships of the Soviet era.  A long crescendo builds to accentuate indignation at their treatment by self-interested merchants ("It is shameful to short-change them, It is sinful to short-weight them").

Such were the circumstances of his life, that Shostakovich refined the writing of gloomy music to an intense degree;  the opening of the fourth movement, "Fears," with its seemingly aimless muffled tuba, grumbles in the percussion played so softly that you strain to hear them, a keening melody in the low strings, and then the men's choir coming in on a monotone, "Fears are dying out in Russia" ... in a way personally unfortunate for the composer, but artistically fortunate for the world, Shostakovich had been prepared by long years to write just such a chilling passage of musical understatement.

The last movement, "A Career" alternates between a tired, and almost strangely complacent, waltz theme introduced by the flute, and a bumptious setting of the text itself, so that when the bass solo and the men's choir are present, the feeling of the second movement ("Humor") is distantly recalled. But the bouncy music evolves into a fughetta, which turns edgy with the horn entrance;  this subsides into a graver mood for the voices ("Those who hurled curses have been forgotten, We remember the ones they cursed").  The bells which opened the symphony come back, softer, the nostalgic waltz returns in the strings ... at the last, a final toll of the bell dies away into silence.

Marius Rintzler has a fine voice, and the chorus sound fine as well;  their Russian pronunciation could be better, but is fair for the most part.  The Concertgebouw Orchestra sound fabulous.

It's the only one I've ever had,- and all the Reviewers, when speaking about some other recording, say, Oh finally a 13th to retire the Haitink! Now, it's as fine as I think I could want, and as I was rooting around yesterday the competition is as slim and fierce as anything. Even the SLIGHTEST negative point is bound to send people elsewhere.

I was listening to some earlier, and, I don't know if I ever noticed that Haitink is uniformly slower than everyone else. But who can tell once in Haitink's world? And so when I just went for the Kamu/Chandos without looking first, because I assumed it was an earlier, faster interpretation, I found later that Kamu takes longer than even Haitink! (But- and I'm going to hold 'Grady harp' to it- I'm guessing Kamu keeps the tension level just a bit higher than Haitink?).

All of a sudden I'm obsessed with the glutteral? sounds of Russian basses??? Is it Leifer- Alexs- whaaa????? Yea, Rintzler has served his purpose but ideally we'd all like Rebroff? or somethingm haha! But, the fact that Leiferkus has like four different versions to choose from, it seems like one must go with him. I am frankly leaning towards Jarvi, AGAIN!! (I'm sorry guys, but because I rejected the Jarvi 11 I feel the right to give him the benefit of the doubt). Unless you actually have the Jarvi and the rest and can definitely say one way or the other, I have a feeling Jarvi and the Goteborg band of cutthroats could actually be the best backing for him. Just a hunch, only because of the silence.


btw-

HOW MANY CDS DID I ORDER TODAY???????
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise ON CYCLE BASHING
Post by: snyprrr on July 02, 2014, 01:14:05 PM
The last few weeks of research have exposed some of the Cycle Bashing that routinely goes on in DSCHLand. Just a couple of points:

1) The Rostropovitch Cycle has the worst reputation of all it seems, but I've found the 4th and the 15th, at least, to be Top3 Contenders. And the 14th is the old one. And perhaps the disc with 1 and 9 is different? I can see that he might have some issues in the really big ones, 7, 8, maybe 10, so, perhaps there is a lot of good criticism to level, but, if the IS a sucky Cycle, the Rule is is that there may very well be one diamond in there, at least.

2) Ashkenazy just gets short shrift perhaps because of the Decca-Haitink Syndrome. I've always enjoyed his 5th, and yes I know it is like a museum piece, but, seriously, for some it is STILL their favourite TO  LISTEN TO. And research proved that the 9/15 split is a Top3 encounter no doubt, and further research may yield a very good 10th. I've also heard good things about the 1/6 recording.

But with Ashkenazy the Cycle the criticism is somewhat easier to navigate. It's clear that one should stay away from the Japanese orchestra as they are just not competitive in 13-14, and one could be excused for being wary about 2, 3, 12, and 11, and I certainly won't go near them. But then there is a St. Petersburg 7-8 that I'd be very curious about.

My point with Ashkenazy is that Decca, from the get-go, has given him sumptuous Decca sound, and the Royal Phil. have seemingly at least played extremely well for him, and, I must say, he is by no mean a Conservative (as he has been accused) when it comes to things like the 15th. I'm just saying this because i think may think I'm an Ashkenazy apologist, and I am not here at all. He has just really surprised me the most, and I'm just giving him credit. For him I can recommend 1/6, 9/15, possibly 10, and maybe 4- some say the first Decca 4th was the weakest of the Cycle and he remade it with the Japanese orchestra, though the Reviews for that are less than for the first one. But there HAVE BEEN positive Reviews about his 4th, and at least the sound should be sweet.

3) All those ESSENTIAL Russian come in sound that makes me cry. :'(

4) Jarvi Is King! Why would anyone criticize the Jarvman?? Yes, I know, it's the Big Chandos BoomBoom. But then what of his DG 13-15? Not a peep from anyone. No, Jarvi is pretty must straight on somewhere near the Top3 in every important work. I dunno, you can listen to Endless Russian Coughing but you can't put up with a little Chandos BoomBoom?

5)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: aukhawk on July 02, 2014, 01:21:49 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 01, 2014, 06:46:22 PM
Symphony No.5 op.47
...
Previn(RCA)                     17:25    4:58      15:58        9:43

This is particularly interesting as it was only Previn's 2nd (or maybe even 1st?) release as a 'classical' conductor.  I was still reeling at the idea of someone who was famed as a cocktail-style jazz pianist tackling this sort of stuff.  The slow movement especially is as good as any I've ever heard.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: aukhawk on July 02, 2014, 01:29:46 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 01, 2014, 11:57:22 AM
Op.10 is really only highlighted as a "single symphony" on that Ormandy disc? No- I think there's a couple of others too who just did a single Op.10. It's another one that I could handle any exciting performance, outre or not. (though I don't know of any Sleepers- though they say Caetani takes it real fast).

I've lived with the Ormandy Shostakovich 1st Symphony since my elder brother bought the LP (for the Cello Concerto) in the early '60s.  I've never heard better.  The recordings are both exceptionally good by CBS standards of the time (which were often not so good - but these are the exceptions).   It's a favourite symphony of mine and although currently I usually turn to Caetani, if I had to only have one version, it would definitely be Ormandy.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on July 02, 2014, 05:05:23 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on July 02, 2014, 01:29:46 PM
I've lived with the Ormandy Shostakovich 1st Symphony since my elder brother bought the LP (for the Cello Concerto) in the early '60s.  I've never heard better.  The recordings are both exceptionally good by CBS standards of the time (which were often not so good - but these are the exceptions).   It's a favourite symphony of mine and although currently I usually turn to Caetani, if I had to only have one version, it would definitely be Ormandy.

Yes, confirmation nf that unusually transparent CBS recording. I'd like to get the disc simply with 1 * 5 but that's ridiculously $$$. But i guess we can handle another CC1.


I'm recovering from Finger-Press-itis.... ooowwww.... I hit BuyItNow! just one too many times today...oooowwwww......
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 03, 2014, 05:59:24 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 02, 2014, 12:50:40 PM
I was listening to some earlier, and, I don't know if I ever noticed that Haitink is uniformly slower than everyone else. But who can tell once in Haitink's world?

That's it, in a word!  He makes the deliberate clarity work;  and IMO being "dissatisfied" with that generally amounts to I've heard it dramatized, but now that the suit is stretched out, it doesn't seem to want to fit no more . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on July 03, 2014, 08:03:38 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 03, 2014, 05:59:24 AM
That's it, in a word!  He makes the deliberate clarity work;  and IMO being "dissatisfied" with that generally amounts to I've heard it dramatized, but now that the suit is stretched out, it doesn't seem to want to fit no more . . . .

You're saying Haitink is a victim of Lenny's lower instincts?- our perceptions of Haitink?- because of yeasty interpretations that 'fill' listeners' ears with aural candy that they then get classically diabetic from, unable then to 'eat solid food'? In that case, Ashkenazy's restrained 5th IS Perfect! Anyhow- yes, I've been struggling with Haitink here, because, especially here with DSCH we are walking some fine line between emotion and clarity and all those fun teeter-totter effects that make it necessary for soooo many interpretations- meaning, per Haitink, that, even though he might be 'too cool' in, say, the 4th, he brings so many other things to the table that you haaave to include him- his reading does compel you-

I mean... I mean...

Maybe there IS NO Middle-of-the-Road? Tempo is out- what you FILL the tempo with is in.

Anyhow, what your Post brought up for me is that I'm having trouble finding the one Haitink/DSCH recording that I'm not going to have THAT problem with. I'm sorry, but,even though I'd give the whole set 4.93 Stars I'm still wondering which is TheOneHaitinkDSCH that is MyMustHave. I had already cut 14 & 15 for issues, and I'm now in the process of cutting the Rintzler 13th, the 5th has it's own set of criteria as we all know, (and, excluding for argument 2, 3, & 12) and that leaves 1/9, 4, 6, 7, 8, 10, and 11.

(I'm not being dogmatic with numbers here, just making a very very general argument)

So I'm figuring that in that last bunch is SomethingReallySpecial. And i know most of us would think it's the 8th (and it may be), but I'd like to know what the others hold- we've heard good things about the 6th and 10th, and I can't remember about the 7th or 11th. Does anyone really want to be known as TheGuyWhoNailedOne&Nine? :laugh:

Yea man, he NAILS the 1/9 split! :laugh: (seriously, he gets some criticism in the 1st because he's not a wild and crazy guuuy)

Obviously Haitink's gravity works best in the MostSeriousMusic.


Anyhow, looking over this Post now, everything I wrote sounds like bs-mm-haha :laugh:(oh how do I manage?)



ALSO- I'M RECUPERATING FROM YESTERDAY'S BUY-A-THON....FUUUUU :(.... I basically have one recording of every work we've been discussing on the way, some two,... all different (I do joy in finding odd ducks/dark horses/aha moments)... can't wait (hope I'm still listening to DSCH when the arrive by RealSlowMail (the only way I'm saving here))...

I'm Looking For A Sponsor! ;) ;D 8) :-* 0:)

$$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$

Don't make me have to sell my ass down by the docks for DSCH money!! >:D :P :o










:o :o :o
:o :o :o
:o :o :o


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

(yes, time for nap)

zzzZZZzzz... zzzZZZzzz...

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on July 03, 2014, 08:12:06 AM
I took a dollar chance on the Lazarev/Virgin 14th with Mikael Krutikov as bass, who, the next year after this came out, was nominated for a Grammy for his 'Historie du Soldat'. So, based on that,... we'll see... Lazarev's 11th got lacerated in a DeathMatch (along with Stokowski!), but the Reviewer alluded to good things being said about this one (see how I have to justify my choices to ease my guilt?).

Frankly, in 14, the unreleased Barsha Premiere2i on YT has sounded to me the most delicious, followed somewhat by the famous early '70s Rosty (and the more widely available Barshai Premiere1). Rosty's hand clackers really sound like evil witch sounds, brrrrr.

14 has to sound absolutely horrifying I think- perhaps it should be staged in a Grand Guignol fashion with live people hanging from chains and offal strewn on stage?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 03, 2014, 08:19:25 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 03, 2014, 08:03:38 AM
Anyhow, what your Post brought up for me is that I'm having trouble finding the one Haitink/DSCH recording that I'm not going to have THAT problem with. I'm sorry, but,even though I'd give the whole set 4.93 Stars I'm still wondering which is TheOneHaitinkDSCH that is MyMustHave. I had already cut 14 & 15 for issues, and I'm now in the process of cutting the Rintzler 13th, the 5th has it's own set of criteria as we all know, (and, excluding for argument 2, 3, & 12) and that leaves 1/9, 4, 6, 7, 8, 10, and 11.

(I'm not being dogmatic with numbers here, just making a very very general argument)

Check.  We are trying to accommodate your thought processes ;)

Quote from: snyprrr on July 03, 2014, 08:03:38 AM
Obviously Haitink's gravity works best in the MostSeriousMusic.

May be a matter of taste;  a few of us really like Benny's RVW cycle, and there is a fair volume of The Non-Serious in there, too.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 03, 2014, 10:19:53 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 02, 2014, 12:50:40 PM
I was listening to some earlier, and, I don't know if I ever noticed that Haitink is uniformly slower than everyone else.

Incidentally, I just listened to Fears from the Thirteenth, both Slava & Haitink, and . . . the latter is sharper, and clocks in at 34 seconds shorter than the former.  I didn't (do not) object to Slava's take at all . . . but I did find myself naturing grooving to the Haitink.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on July 03, 2014, 10:29:55 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 03, 2014, 08:19:25 AM
Check.  We are trying to accommodate your thought processes ;)

Doh1 That's what she said! ??? :P :laugh:


So, everyone, your job this long ass, no mail weekend is to go listen to your most obscure DSCH and we'll back here after mail call Monday?!!


Karl- any particular Haitink you love more than the others?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 03, 2014, 11:11:45 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 03, 2014, 10:29:55 AM
Karl- any particular Haitink you love more than the others?

Probably the Sixth, Seventh, Eighth and Thirteenth are my favorites in his set.  I know, I know:  you don't care about the Sixth or Seventh  8)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Brahmsian on July 03, 2014, 11:12:29 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 03, 2014, 11:11:45 AM
I know, I know:  you don't care about the Sixth or Seventh  8)

I wish he would.  Two dandies, right there.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on July 03, 2014, 01:48:41 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on July 03, 2014, 11:12:29 AM
I wish he would.  Two dandies, right there.
Quote from: karlhenning on July 03, 2014, 11:11:45 AM
Probably the Sixth, Seventh, Eighth and Thirteenth are my favorites in his set.  I know, I know:  you don't care about the Sixth or Seventh  8)

I like 6 just fine, just don't need more distractions (and, I'd only get my old Jarvi back anyway), and the 7th I'm saving for a rainy day (still, you can let me know who the only one who gets the 7th right is, haha!).

back in the day, with 6, I sampled a few against Jarvi, and his 1st movement just won OUT! If it's better than Jarvi, ok. shoot
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: relm1 on July 03, 2014, 03:22:40 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 03, 2014, 10:19:53 AM
Incidentally, I just listened to Fears from the Thirteenth, both Slava & Haitink, and . . . the latter is sharper, and clocks in at 34 seconds shorter than the former.  I didn't (do not) object to Slava's take at all . . . but I did find myself naturing grooving to the Haitink.

My favorite recording of No. 13 is Okko Kumo/City of Birmingham/Chandos.  How do you like this one Karl?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise TOLD YA SO
Post by: snyprrr on July 04, 2014, 07:28:02 PM
Quote from: relm1 on July 03, 2014, 03:22:40 PM
My favorite recording of No. 13 is Okko Kumo/City of Birmingham/Chandos.  How do you like this one Karl?

Tah Daaah! See how independent confirmation points up the Sleeper Principle? My blind taste test research led me to the same conclusion last week and I await delivery. Can't wait!!



Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 05, 2014, 04:25:18 AM
Quote from: relm1 on July 03, 2014, 03:22:40 PM
My favorite recording of No. 13 is Okko Kumo/City of Birmingham/Chandos.  How do you like this one Karl?

I don't know this 'un.  Who's the bass soloist?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: André on July 05, 2014, 02:32:34 PM
Karl, this is lame... All my sources (aka Google) point to Nikita Storojev. Said sources also point to the hefty price of that presumably hallowed production. IOW it's a 'shall I, or not' ecision. Need instead of desire should be the definig factor. Of course for the inveterate collector, it goes in reverse  :P
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 05, 2014, 02:48:21 PM
I shan't! :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on July 06, 2014, 07:22:35 AM
Quote from: André on July 05, 2014, 02:32:34 PM
Karl, this is lame... All my sources (aka Google) point to Nikita Storojev. Said sources also point to the hefty price of that presumably hallowed production. IOW it's a 'shall I, or not' ecision. Need instead of desire should be the definig factor. Of course for the inveterate collector, it goes in reverse  :P

Whaddaya talkin about? I got it for $2 just the other day.


ok, back to the perennial question- in Russian names, what's up with the "-jev" at the end of this name, and also alternate spellings of Prokofiev?  We know that the "i" and the "j" are interchangeable, and we know that the "v" and the "w" are interchangeable, so, do these names really singnify -ief = -ieff = iev = iew ' jew'? I mean, there is a spelling on some cd here that actually spells "Prokofjew" or "Prokofijew". So, I'm just curious, I know Prokofiev isn't generally known for being a jew,... uh,... is he?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise ((( JARVI 4th )))
Post by: snyprrr on July 06, 2014, 07:58:10 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 23, 2014, 11:33:32 AM
The Previn/CSO is overall very good.  I remember feeling that he didn't quite carry the "extended hocket" tutti of the third movement, but:  I should go back, listen again, and see if my ear has reconsidered.  I also have an impossibly niggling quarrel (which scarcely anyone else on GMG will care about) with one of the recurring rhythms in the big Pealing Brass passage, but I do not find that a Fatal Flaw.  The band sounds good, it cannot be denied.

First (again) listen to Jarvi's 4th (remember, I'd only heard Rostropovich recently, and I had Jarvi decades ago). Well, just to tackle your BigBoomBoom issue first: I'm sorry, Karl, it just has that classic Chandos/Jarvi/RSO sound- it's like a movie soundtrack acoustic- and, at least for this 4th, the cinematic, cavernous (not a fair work here, I'd simply "an orchestral ambience" (as opposed to chamber dimensions (it's a huge Symphony, after all))). Nooow, I do agree that perhaps the cymbals could use a little 20kHz or something, but, it's the '80s, and this record just TAKES ME THERE, right there to that glorious technology. Anyhow, yes, there is also a little cataclysmic thickness with those massive tuttis (and I'd surely like to hear a surgical recording), but, hey, it gives the feel of 'live' to me. I mean, I really can't just discount the record here. BOTTOM LINE: yes, this isn't EMI x-ray, Boulez Cleveland Telarc - and all that stuff's nice, but, - and - we all know what kind of Sound profile Chandos strives for (usually more rounded and creamy than EMI/Philips/DG- in a way more like a rich man's Naxos (if you understand my compliment))- and they usually give an "Epic" engineering, with sumptuous acoustics which are vividly captured. I personally think this Jarvi recording is a 9.7 and I would have only asked for just the tiniest tweak in the 20kHz or so for that cymbal sizzle (otherwise, the piccolo and xylophone are lovingly registered). I think it's BigBoom Music that gets the BigBoom treatment right here. In other words, any detraction from the sound, if there were any- well, I consider it a virtue in this recording (and, of course, as a general rule with this jarvi Cycle on Chandos). The brass and percussion are perfectly caught- some have called the strings a little thin, but they are totally appropriate as I hear them (I'd call it 'focused', not 'thin'- but, we all know the general sound of these Chandos SRO discs).

aye- sorry to right so much bs!

And how is Jarvi's performance? karl's sound issue aside, has anyone even criticized Jarvi's performance? Most will at least give him Top7 status, or Top5,... and many more will go Top3. I found everything perfectly judged, as they say, and I heard things here that didn't seem to make an impact in the Slava (though I will have to go and check- that's actually quite a 'dangerous' little performance there- DarkHorse), like the two harps. If there was one thing I'd like to hear a little more mechanistically, or menacingly, is, in the 3rd mvmt., that anti-phonal chordal back and forth that has such an abstract marching sound to it. Slava had a more conceptual idea of this particular section, but, I mean, THIS MUSIC IS OVERLOOAADED with a cornucopia of oriental delights. So, if i had to pick a criticism, there's one, but, seriously, that's just to appease the DA. I can't, and won't find fault with this record, I look forward to hearing the newer ones we've been discussing, but, as a general swiss army knife, everyone will have to answer to Jarvi before they can pass him. I'd like to try Chung next (need cheap) for its "best sound by far" raves. And I imagine Chung's performance is totally different than Jarvi's.

So, Slava also emerges as quite a Contender.Tell me where he falls flat,... I dare ya! And his Teldec sound is at least the equal to the more sumptuous Chandos Sound (Teldec has its own reputation, and the instruments are quite vividly caught for Slava's raw performance). Slva's a Contender for at least Top7, maybe Top5... maybe??
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise ((( JARVI 4th )))
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 06, 2014, 11:31:39 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 06, 2014, 07:58:10 AM

And how is Jarvi's performance? karl's sound issue aside, has anyone even criticized Jarvi's performance?

The Gramophone death match said:

"Slightly muffled sound detracts from Neeme Järvi's incisive opening, leading into a suavely moulded second theme. Tension builds palpably in the development, with enough kept in reserve to sustain the reprise. The second movement ploughs a subdued furrow, underplaying agitation too readily. Järvi rushes the finale's funeral march - forcing a headlong traversal of the allegro which severely taxes the Scottish National strings. Greater contrast could have been drawn between the dance types in the divertissement, and Järvi robs the peroration of its gravity and the coda of its timelessness. In sum, Jrvi's account is more unified interpretatively than many, but it lacks concentration in the finale especially."

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise ((( JARVI 4th ))) vs SLAVA
Post by: snyprrr on July 07, 2014, 07:46:16 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 06, 2014, 11:31:39 AM
The Gramophone death match said:

"Slightly muffled sound detracts from Neeme Järvi's incisive opening, leading into a suavely moulded second theme. Tension builds palpably in the development, with enough kept in reserve to sustain the reprise. The second movement ploughs a subdued furrow, underplaying agitation too readily. Järvi rushes the finale's funeral march - forcing a headlong traversal of the allegro which severely taxes the Scottish National strings. Greater contrast could have been drawn between the dance types in the divertissement, and Järvi robs the peroration of its gravity and the coda of its timelessness. In sum, Jrvi's account is more unified interpretatively than many, but it lacks concentration in the finale especially."

Sarge

STOP THIEF!! Haha- Jarvi "robbed' the music... I know... it happens all the time. :-\

Yea, I think Jarvi makes it through the piece- I certainly don't have the insight to criticize in-depth like the Reviewer. And we all know what the Chandos sound sounds like,... sure... fair enough Review-

I compared with the Rosty/Teldec, and I must say that Rosty, from the first notes, delivers at least as much ooomph as Jarvi, and maybe a little more. The Telarc sound is nice and open (as usual), totally eliminating the Chandos sound issue. The drums are great- and I did hear the harps to good effect (at the end of the 1st). Frankly, I might juuust go with Rosty here, though, technically, both performances are very similar in temperament. Rosty just has a bit more open Teldec sound. But, in a DeathMatch, I'd put these two very close together.

Though I feel that Jarvi delivers, sure, I still want a more "x-ray"/Boulez type recording where everything is discernible (not that it's not in the Jarvi, but, yes, the sound makes tuttis thick (and no, I won't say "opaque", haha)).

It looks as though I'm set to defend Jarvi, even though I know there can be more. I do think I'd get Chung NEXT (not "only").

I can only imagine HOW violent the Rozh is- is it off-putting?




btw sarge- I'm ready for your Top5 6ths! ;) Looking at the choices, i think I'd have to re-get my old Jarvi (again Jarvi!). AND I WAS LOOKING UP THE 7TH LAST NIGHT- apparently it's a toss-up between Bernstein (either) and whomever plays it the fastest? (some liked Jarvi, but many thought the Ashkenazy w/St. Petersburg was the best 'overall' (though some complain about the extreme dynamic range in this and in the Rosty- which, frankly, doesn't bother me as the march is supposed to start from a distance,... eh?)

Just to reiterate- I HAVE NOT EVER even listened to the 7th (maybe once in the very beginning, don't remember) because of prejudice against the music, so, if I hear Lenny FIRST, will that ruin others (or vice versa)? Should i start with a fast one and then go to Lenny? Jansons gets some fast timings, but I'm always afraid (even though he's Mavrinsky's homei) that he's going to be too 'perfect'.

anyhow...



Andrew Davis/LSO in the 10th (EMI)???? The Shipway/BBC edged out Litton/Virgin (distant sound/impact) and competed heartily with Karajan82.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 07, 2014, 08:29:16 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 06, 2014, 11:31:39 AM
The Gramophone death match said:

"Slightly muffled sound detracts from Neeme Järvi's incisive opening, leading into a suavely moulded second theme. Tension builds palpably in the development, with enough kept in reserve to sustain the reprise. The second movement ploughs a subdued furrow, underplaying agitation too readily. Järvi rushes the finale's funeral march - forcing a headlong traversal of the allegro which severely taxes the Scottish National strings. Greater contrast could have been drawn between the dance types in the divertissement, and Järvi robs the peroration of its gravity and the coda of its timelessness. In sum, Jrvi's account is more unified interpretatively than many, but it lacks concentration in the finale especially."

Thanks, Sarge.  I had borrowed the CD from a friend on the west coast, but of course returned it many years ago.  I could not in good conscience presume to answer our snypsss directly! ;)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on July 07, 2014, 08:51:50 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 07, 2014, 08:29:16 AM
Thanks, Sarge.  I had borrowed the CD from a friend on the west coast, but of course returned it many years ago.  I could not in good conscience presume to answer our snypsss directly! ;)

That Rosty/Teldec 4 is definitely the tonic for those Jarvi criticisms.

Am I wrong or does NO ONE ON THIS FORUM have Chung? Even with the Amazon Reviewers Chung's vision hasn't been completely disseminated via TheFinalWord. (Salonen too)

Frankly, I'm really really impressed with the 4th as Absolute Music. I'm like, So this was written in the '20s, huh? Hmm. Mahler sounds like someone who's never seen a skyscraper, or flown, when compared to this.


WHO IS THE FIRST COMPOSER INFLUENCED BY AVIATION? (and not necessarily by overtly writing a TonePoem about, but in the 'Modern' style that wasn't possible before then).
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on July 07, 2014, 09:01:04 AM
What, oh What?!, will the mailman deliver today? :-X Depends at the ready!!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 07, 2014, 09:01:49 AM
Aye, the Fourth is a great favorite of mine.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: North Star on July 07, 2014, 09:34:25 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 07, 2014, 09:01:49 AM
Aye, the Fourth is a great favorite of mine.
Mine, as well. :)
But then, the Fifth, Seventh, Eighth, Tenth, Thirteenth, Fourteenth, Fifteenth are alright, too.  8)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 07, 2014, 09:52:05 AM
Karlo, how could you skip the Sixth?  0:) ;) 8)

And Ninth?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 07, 2014, 09:58:20 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 07, 2014, 07:46:16 AM
[...] AND I WAS LOOKING UP THE 7TH LAST NIGHT- apparently it's a toss-up between Bernstein (either) and whomever plays it the fastest? (some liked Jarvi, but many thought the Ashkenazy w/St. Petersburg was the best 'overall' (though some complain about the extreme dynamic range in this and in the Rosty- which, frankly, doesn't bother me as the march is supposed to start from a distance,... eh?)

Just to reiterate- I HAVE NOT EVER even listened to the 7th (maybe once in the very beginning, don't remember) because of prejudice against the music, so, if I hear Lenny FIRST, will that ruin others (or vice versa)? Should i start with a fast one and then go to Lenny? Jansons gets some fast timings, but I'm always afraid (even though he's Mavrinsky's homei) that he's going to be too 'perfect'.

I don't think I've heard the Lenny/NY Phil recording (with Lenny's cuts in the first movement) I won't have my Leningrad shredded, I tell you!

The CSO account is wonderful, superb, idiosyncratic . . . unreliable as a "road map."

You weren't paying attention when I mentioned Ančerl/Cz Phil, were you?!  ;)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Henk on July 07, 2014, 10:12:03 AM
Isn't Shostakovich depressive?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: North Star on July 07, 2014, 10:18:24 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 07, 2014, 09:52:05 AM
Karlo, how could you skip the Sixth?  0:) ;) 8)

And Ninth?
Well, I thought listing ten favourites would be a bit too much. But yes, those two, too. :)
Perhaps I'm forgiven if I listen to Op. 54 (Jansons & Oslo) straight away.  ;)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: North Star on July 07, 2014, 10:19:58 AM
Quote from: Henk on July 07, 2014, 10:12:03 AM
Isn't Shostakovich depressive?
I wouldn't say so.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 07, 2014, 10:23:12 AM
Nor me.  In fact, I find it exhilaratingly affirming.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Henk on July 07, 2014, 10:33:48 AM
Ok, needed to check before spinning some Shostakovich (which I do now and I agree). I had this set in my memory:

[asin]B000HXE5BK[/asin]

Maybe it are just the interpretations but I made such a heavy impact on me, depressive.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 07, 2014, 10:37:43 AM
Quote from: Henk on July 07, 2014, 10:33:48 AM
Ok, needed to check before spinning some Shostakovich (which I do now and I agree). I had this set in my memory:

[asin]B000HXE5BK[/asin]

Maybe it are just the interpretations but I made such a heavy impact on me, depressive.

Perhaps;  because of the personal connection, it may be, the Borodins recording has something of a monumental air.

Perhaps if you tried the Emerson or Pacifica SQ, they might be more to your liking.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise ((( MACKERRAS 5TH)))
Post by: snyprrr on July 07, 2014, 11:04:36 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 07, 2014, 09:52:05 AM
Karlo, how could you skip the Sixth?  0:) ;) 8)

And Ninth?

So, I'm giving Mackerras/RPO (BBC) a go here, and now I find I have to state up front: I MUST HAVE MY OPENING LOW STRINGS LOOOUD!!!PLEASE!!!

I don't know exactly what the problem was, but the first two low string notes- I had to turn the volume up. Uh, that.should.not.happen.here. in the 5th... by Shostakovich... that 5th.

So I'm in the middle of the Moderato, but now I'm pissed because my search continues... wait... wait... ok, cool, the walking piano part comes in nice with menacing brass... but I still need those first notes louder (I guess not Mackerras's fault, buuut,...) yea- snar drum intro is fine- it's a great performance, but you know how I get about LowInitialVolumeImpact.

f*** :(

Still, at this elevated volume, it's quite a braying delight! Must turn down a notch...

The sound quality (is this 'live') is "fine"... it does "sound live"... the levels for the 'Festive Overture' were just slightly less than the Litton/Virgin (which itself is a somewhat distant recording)... it just looks like I want a more controlled studio environment (it says, recorded at "C.T.S. Studios, London", 'live' or not) with a really decent Input Level on the microphones.

Why do I get the feeling this is going to be a problem? Fuuu... I really don't want to have to turn to the CoughMeister. >:(

So, it's official, I'm not a fan of a dynamics laden 5th. I don't want any 'sotto voce' here, thank you. I'll be comparing with Late Lenny in a moment, and I recall that recording to be in your face from the get go.


trying.to.remain. calm.stop.

should.listen.more.to.people.not.get.unvetted.cds.stop.

i've.let.you.all.down.

:blank:

:blank:

:blank:

:laugh:

onward forward!!

Again, the lower levels are making half of the Allegretto very quite, even at current high volume setting. Uh boy, does that mean I'm need a hearing aid for the Adagio? ::)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise (((LAZAREV 14th)))
Post by: snyprrr on July 07, 2014, 11:46:31 AM
About to preview Lazarev's 14th on Virgin with  Makvala Kasrashvili and Michael Krutikov. (Virgin; Lausanne Chamber Orchestra)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise (((LAZAREV 14th))) NO DICE
Post by: snyprrr on July 08, 2014, 07:50:35 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 07, 2014, 11:46:31 AM
About to preview Lazarev's 14th on Virgin with  Makvala Kasrashvili and Michael Krutikov. (Virgin; Lausanne Chamber Orchestra)

Yes... NO!... sorry...

a) recorded with an open dynamic range,... and from a seated distance,... and then played too loud/too soft for the ultimate in volume knob terrorism.

b) because the strings are so far back, quiet parts are... well, just see above... ensemble is certainly not immaculate - also, there is no sulfur smell, or hellbound viols, or any underlining of anything darker - this must be one of those "try not to make it sound too much like Death" '90s ideas that really should have just gotten the Sanderling treatment!

c) the Conductor's slack hand is manifest all over the place, with literally no tension at all ever. Sure, some parts come off well and sound like the good parts of other recordings, but most other Conductors demand, and get, the 'dark matter' upon request. Here, it seems that not much was required of the strings other than to give somewhat of a backdrop.

d) the percussion choices are nothing special and don't bring George Crumb to the table (so to speak)


If you turn up your system very loud, and your speakers can handle it, then maybe, just maybe, most of my criticisms are just bs and this is, in fact, a great record. Frankly, Slovak on Naxos had some sweet singing,... guys? Slovak. That Slovak. Someone must have a forgotten copy- please check. (think about it- Naxos's sound fits this music to a 't') Anyhow, off we go...

(I know- can't afford Currentzis this week)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: amw on July 08, 2014, 09:20:45 AM
Quote from: Henk on July 07, 2014, 10:33:48 AM
Maybe it are just the interpretations but I made such a heavy impact on me, depressive.

The Russian interpreters of the string quartets tend to bring out that side of things.

Try the Mandelring or Hagen Quartets (on Spotify/Qobuz/etc) for different approaches.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise ((( MACKERRAS 5TH)))
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 08, 2014, 09:28:49 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 07, 2014, 11:04:36 AM
So, I'm giving Mackerras/RPO (BBC) a go here, and now I find I have to state up front: I MUST HAVE MY OPENING LOW STRINGS LOOOUD!!!PLEASE!!!

I don't know exactly what the problem was, but the first two low string notes- I had to turn the volume up. Uh, that.should.not.happen.here. in the 5th... by Shostakovich... that 5th.

I told you to buy Lenny/Live, but would you listen? Nooooo...  ;D


Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 08, 2014, 09:38:23 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 08, 2014, 09:28:49 AM
I told you to buy Lenny/Live, but would you listen? Nooooo...  ;D


Sarge

(* chortle *)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise ((( MACKERRAS 5TH)))
Post by: snyprrr on July 08, 2014, 09:48:29 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 08, 2014, 09:28:49 AM
I told you to buy Lenny/Live, but would you listen? Nooooo...  ;D


Sarge

Quote from: karlhenning on July 08, 2014, 09:38:23 AM
(* chortle *)

WAAAAH!! :'(


Seriously, I expected a better sound picture from Mackerras. If you want to infuriate me, start the 5th off with mufflers on. Slapped 'Bernstein Century' in after, just to make sure it wasn't the speakers. it wasn't. Lenny (wait... the one with Ma CC1 is the one you're talking about?) starts the piece off the way I want to hear it (which is, I WANT TO HEAR IT!). Just infuriating! :laugh:

Otherwise, the Mackerras was fine, as an interpretation. But, that flippin "dynamic range" on some of these modern recordings is counterproductive, imo. Lenny shows up dynamic range!



So, whilst i have the both of you- Top3 6ths? Is it the jewel of Haitink's crown? Sargent? I'm starting with my beloved first cd ever- Jarvi 1/6. A lot of one offs here...
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 08, 2014, 10:04:20 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 08, 2014, 09:48:29 AM
So, whilst i have the both of you- Top3 6ths? Is it the jewel of Haitink's crown? Sargent? I'm starting with my beloved first cd ever- Jarvi 1/6. A lot of one offs here...

Very partial to the Termirkanov/St Petersburg Phil; but yes, Haitink's is very good.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise ((( MACKERRAS 5TH)))
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 08, 2014, 12:03:38 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 08, 2014, 09:48:29 AM
WAAAAH!! :'(


Seriously, I expected a better sound picture from Mackerras. If you want to infuriate me, start the 5th off with mufflers on. Slapped 'Bernstein Century' in after, just to make sure it wasn't the speakers. it wasn't. Lenny (wait... the one with Ma CC1 is the one you're talking about?)

Yes, I mean the one coupled with Ma/Ormandy.

Quote from: snyprrr on July 08, 2014, 09:48:29 AM
So, whilst i have the both of you- Top3 6ths? Is it the jewel of Haitink's crown? Sargent? I'm starting with my beloved first cd ever- Jarvi 1/6. A lot of one offs here...

Haitink hits the spot, Bernstein too. I was disappointed by Järvi and Rostropovich. I have Termirkov, and a half dozen others too, but have no memory of them. I should conduct a not-so-blind comparison.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise SARGE URGENTLY NEEDED!!
Post by: snyprrr on July 08, 2014, 02:20:14 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 08, 2014, 12:03:38 PM
Yes, I mean the one coupled with Ma/Ormandy.

Haitink hits the spot, Bernstein too. I was disappointed by Järvi and Rostropovich. I have Termirkov, and a half dozen others too, but have no memory of them. I should conduct a not-so-blind comparison.

Sarge

Oh yes please do!

OK, I thought you were pushin' Rosty/DDG in 5? I just realized that late Lenny and 1st Rosty are near each other chronologically. Does one need both? I just relented on the Rosty, but after reading a bunch of Lenny79 Reviews, I MUST ASK:

DOES LENNY AT LEAST OPEN WITH AT LEAST THE SOUND PRESSURE LEVELS OF THE OLDER ONE? I just want to make sure about those first eight notes. The Reviews were going on about how 'draggy' the 1st mvmt was- which is fine as long sas there's a corresponding amount of tension. FRANKLY, I CAN'T SEE LENNY UNDERPOWERING HIM INTRO. Please do confirm that him open will straighten my short hairs!

As soon as you confirm, I deploy my Damage Finger!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise SARGE URGENTLY NEEDED!!
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 09, 2014, 03:28:54 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 08, 2014, 02:20:14 PM
Oh yes please do!

OK, I thought you were pushin' Rosty/DDG in 5? I just realized that late Lenny and 1st Rosty are near each other chronologically. Does one need both?

I push both: one for the "Testament" ending (Slava) and one for the Happy Ending (Lenny). I think you need both types of performances in your collection.

Quote from: snyprrr on July 08, 2014, 02:20:14 PM
I MUST ASK:

DOES LENNY AT LEAST OPEN WITH AT LEAST THE SOUND PRESSURE LEVELS OF THE OLDER ONE? I just want to make sure about those first eight notes. The Reviews were going on about how 'draggy' the 1st mvmt was- which is fine as long sas there's a corresponding amount of tension. FRANKLY, I CAN'T SEE LENNY UNDERPOWERING HIM INTRO. Please do confirm that him open will straighten my short hairs!

I haven't heard the first Lenny, and I can't find clips online that include the first bars. I haven't heard Mack either, so it's impossible for me to say if Lenny/Tokyo is actually as good as his studio version or better than Mack. All I can say is the opening sounds right, and powerful, to me. His live first movement is a minute and a half longer. I don't think it drags. The second theme is just so bleak, so icy, like a dead, frozen Siberian landscape. The last movement is slower too (8:55 vs 10:10) which I think must be an improvement (not so manic but still swift and upbeat).

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise SARGE URGENTLY NEEDED!!
Post by: snyprrr on July 09, 2014, 06:17:52 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 09, 2014, 03:28:54 AM
I push both: one for the "Testament" ending (Slava) and one for the Happy Ending (Lenny). I think you need both types of performances in your collection.

I haven't heard the first Lenny, and I can't find clips online that include the first bars. I haven't heard Mack either, so it's impossible for me to say if Lenny/Tokyo is actually as good as his studio version or better than Mack. All I can say is the opening sounds right, and powerful, to me. His live first movement is a minute and a half longer. I don't think it drags. The second theme is just so bleak, so icy, like a dead, frozen Siberian landscape. The last movement is slower too (8:55 vs 10:10) which I think must be an improvement (not so manic but still swift and upbeat).

Sarge

Mack = Mackerras?  haha!! ok

Yes, ok, yes- the '59 Lenny starts JUST LIKE ANYONE WOULD WANT IT- there just can't be any complaining, so, I'll just assume that '79 is "normal" and starts off with an acceptable pushing of decibels. The Mack just starts off with a super disappointingly low volume- comparing to LB59 was embarrassing. I seem to recall Ashkenazy somewhere in the middle (his is known as 'reserved').

OK, I'll just- err- assuuuume that Lenny '79 does the right thing, and why wouldn't he? There's just no excuse for Mack to rob the very first notes of their dramatic power like that. I feel violated!! :'( Hold me! ???

Are there some other wet noodle openings out there that one should avoid, I wonder?


Anyhow,- DONE!! ;)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise !!! KAMU 13TH DISMISSED!!!!~!!!
Post by: snyprrr on July 09, 2014, 06:53:38 AM
Quote from: relm1 on July 03, 2014, 03:22:40 PM
My favorite recording of No. 13 is Okko Kumo/City of Birmingham/Chandos.  How do you like this one Karl?

Well, yesterday was the BigDay,... but,... huh?,...

First I put on the intro to the Haitink. OK, fine- very nice- the only version I've ever known.

Now on to the Kamu, which Grady Harp convinced me was what I was looking for. OK, it starts. About the same as Haitink. Oh, very nice winds right there- ok, here it comes, here comes the big choral intro- wait- wait-

WHAAAT?????

The choir is even more recessed than Haitink's. >:D AAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!! RUUUIIIINNNED!!! AAAAHHHHH!!!! Haitink's choir is actually right about where it should be- just.about.- but Kamu's - no matter how good they are- ARE JUST TOO RECESSED. :'( :( :'( :(

Everything else seemed ok- Storojev is certainly immediately noticed as a much better, Russian sounding singer for the 13th- THOUGH, listening again to Rintzler, he's fine- I mean, he certainly doesn't have "THAT" sound in his voice, but one can make it through without having serious problems (sure, it would be nice if he had THAT sound in his voice).

Ugh- so- I have to dismiss the Kamu simply because of the recessed choir. I also hear Temirkanov's recording is a little distant (anyone?).

So, frankly, Haitink won this one hands down. His intro is also just a tad quicker (and he's the one accused of dragging?) so that those very opening flourishes have a little more life to them. And his recording is- well- we all know Haitink's recording is exemplary. Nothing particularly wrong with the Chandos recording- the 4th mvmt's opening cymbal swirls sound particularly eerie here (though Haitink holds him own).

But, fffffuuuuuu........- the choir is muy importante.



I had Haitink in the SELL pile. It goes back on the shelf; Kamu is dismissed. :(



Well, I want to try another 13th. Masur, Maxim/Supraph., Jarvi, Sinaisky, Jansons ???? MUST HAVE DECENT CHOIR No one plays this music as slow as either Haitink or kamu, so that's not an issue any more. I JUST WANT IT ALL AND I'M NOT ASKING TOO MUCH!!!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 09, 2014, 07:08:59 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 09, 2014, 06:53:38 AM
I had Haitink in the SELL pile. It goes back on the shelf

You have passed the Test, Grasshopper.

I'll revisit the Максим Дмитриевич recording today.

Incidentally, this may just be my favorite Fourteenth:
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on July 09, 2014, 09:54:34 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 09, 2014, 07:08:59 AM
You have passed the Test, Grasshopper.

I'll revisit the Максим Дмитриевич recording today.

Incidentally, this may just be my favorite Fourteenth:

I actually did feel like I passed a Test there! Very odd, but I heard the Haitink in a whole new light. Fact is, he has some of the most succulent sonics bar none- sure, they remind me of the time- but it was a GOOD time then, haha! Haitink's 14th, also, despite any objections, has tremendous sonics. And the 5th... and...


I'm still wary there on that ECM. As soon as I saw it, Mr. Expectations arrived, who was quickly and brutally engaged by Kremer's "choices"- I will have to check again. How long is the 'Malaguena'?

I know I was complaining about "Sound" back there with the Prokofiev 5, and DSCH 4, and those things that I THOUGHT needed modern sound, but, for things like the 14th, creepy '70s sound may just be the ticket? That's why I thought Previn perfect for 8- early '70s sound. (Stokowski 11 actually sounds better than its vintage, therefore he's always been a keeper)


I don the ninja scarf of BuyItNow! as we speak, readying up for the next slaughter... uh, purchase... in TheQuest. Frankly, I'm doing about 50/50 since this reintroduction began a month ago. sigh :( Every wrong purchase is a scar, every instance of 'bad recording shock' like a stab in the back. Oh the horror!

(Puts in new arrival DSCH CD)

(CD begins playing)

(Within 10 seconds, snyprrr lets out a big "WTF? Come ON. What is that?")

(And the process begins anew)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 09, 2014, 10:10:41 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 09, 2014, 09:54:34 AM
I'm still wary there on that ECM. As soon as I saw it, Mr. Expectations arrived, who was quickly and brutally engaged by Kremer's "choices"- I will have to check again. How long is the 'Malaguena'?

Quote from: karlhenning on May 27, 2014, 07:47:47 AM
And on the Kremerata Baltica CD I mentioned: 2:43.  The Currentzis is 2:39 . . . so the differential could just be letting cadential chords ring a bit in the space.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 09, 2014, 10:11:39 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 09, 2014, 07:08:59 AM
You have passed the Test, Grasshopper.

I'll revisit the Максим Дмитриевич recording [ of the Thirteenth ] today.

Magnificently good!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise (((SYMPHONY 11)))
Post by: snyprrr on July 09, 2014, 10:13:06 AM
Symphony No.11 Op.103 (1957)

The fact is, there aren't enough good versions of this to warrant a Timings Chart! It seems like 11 has the least amount of competitive contenders out of all the Most Popular Symphonies. Review after Review lifts the same up, and tear the rest down. My own history with recordings is even less kind. I first heard the plucked harp and string introduction through Stokowski's dynamically compressed recording, and when I sampled any other (Haitink, DePriest, Jarvi), I was severely disappoint from the word, Go!

Apparently ONLY Stokowski ALLOWS us to hear the opening of this most Cinematic Symphony (maybe more on peoples' panty-ruffling over this... uh...FACT!). I mean, to me, every other Conductor seems willing to cheat us out of one of the most haunting First Notes in History. Go ahead and tell me what opening gives you the same special thrill that that initial pluck harp does. Go ahead. Waiting.

So, at your request I went a'11 huntin'. The new Rostropovich 'live' sits at the top of the heap, followed by Stokowski, Petrenko, and Haitink. Well, apparently, unless you live in a ...hyperbaric chamber- you won't actually HEAR but 20% of the music. Frankly, to keep from exploding in a furious rage I shall not further this line of inquiry- for I will hurl hyperbolic insult at anyone who defends The Dynamic Range from Hell.

Sorry.

So-

All I want to know is this: is there One along with Stokowski who simply ALLOWS ME to hear My Beloved Opening Harp? All I (MORE) ask from Stokowski is a) slightly more modern sound b) just tighten up the ensemble or interpretation minutely c) Just make the climaxes to just give that slight ,more volume at the very most brutal passages (Stokowski's dynamics, of course, get squashed flat in the loud parts, like a radio station compression (but of course not sounding bad at all)), and, d) LEAVE EVERYTHING ELSE!!- Just let those bells die out at the end (I mean, reeeally EMI engineers ::)).

So, go ahead, I dare you to knock this Stokowski off my shoulder. Dare ya! ;)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise (((SYMPHONY 11)))
Post by: Brahmsian on July 09, 2014, 10:13:57 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 09, 2014, 10:13:06 AM
Symphony No.11 Op.103 (1957)

The fact is, there aren't enough good versions of this to warrant a Timings Chart! It seems like 11 has the least amount of competitive contenders out of all the Most Popular Symphonies. Review after Review lifts the same up, and tear the rest down. My own history with recordings is even less kind. I first heard the plucked harp and string introduction through Stokowski's dynamically compressed recording, and when I sampled any other (Haitink, DePriest, Jarvi), I was severely disappoint from the word, Go!

Apparently ONLY Stokowski ALLOWS us to hear the opening of this most Cinematic Symphony (maybe more on peoples' panty-ruffling over this... uh...FACT!). I mean, to me, every other Conductor seems willing to cheat us out of one of the most haunting First Notes in History. Go ahead and tell me what opening gives you the same special thrill that that initial pluck harp does. Go ahead. Waiting.

So, at your request I went a'11 huntin'. The new Rostropovich 'live' sits at the top of the heap, followed by Stokowski, Petrenko, and Haitink. Well, apparently, unless you live in a ...hyperbaric chamber- you won't actually HEAR but 20% of the music. Frankly, to keep from exploding in a furious rage I shall not further this line of inquiry- for I will hurl hyperbolic insult at anyone who defends The Dynamic Range from Hell.

Sorry.

So-

All I want to know is this: is there One along with Stokowski who simply ALLOWS ME to hear My Beloved Opening Harp? All I (MORE) ask from Stokowski is a) slightly more modern sound b) just tighten up the ensemble or interpretation minutely c) Just make the climaxes to just give that slight ,more volume at the very most brutal passages (Stokowski's dynamics, of course, get squashed flat in the loud parts, like a radio station compression (but of course not sounding bad at all)), and, d) LEAVE EVERYTHING ELSE!!- Just let those bells die out at the end (I mean, reeeally EMI engineers ::)).

So, go ahead, I dare you to knock this Stokowski off my shoulder. Dare ya! ;)

I like the live recording of Kirill Karabits conducting the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on July 09, 2014, 10:16:55 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 09, 2014, 10:11:39 AM
Magnificently good!

And the choir? Their introduction- and their placement- is perfectly judged? (just tell me if Haitink lives or dies here, haha- ThereCanBeOnlyOne!)


btw- we've moved on to the 11th for the mid-morning (mail man has not yet arrived), check previous Post-
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise (((SYMPHONY 11)))
Post by: snyprrr on July 09, 2014, 10:21:27 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on July 09, 2014, 10:13:57 AM
I like the live recording of Kirill Karabits conducting the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra.

Just tell me if you can hear the Beloved Harp Intro. What's the... err... Dynamic Range here? Is this a Volume Setter's Paradise, or Set-It-and-Forget-It? There's a KarabitProkofiev 3/7 split- mm? eh? (he needs to shave!!)



I've just about had it with Shosty Conductors right now- I want the version I want, not the one you're willing to give me!!! >:D >:D >:D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 09, 2014, 11:09:21 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 09, 2014, 10:21:27 AM
Just tell me if you can hear the Beloved Harp Intro.

Revisiting the Максим Дмитриевич, aye, strings, harp & timpani in euphonious balance.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on July 09, 2014, 12:09:04 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 09, 2014, 11:09:21 AM
Revisiting the Максим Дмитриевич, aye, strings, harp & timpani in euphonious balance.

What do you think of the famous Masur 13th? It's only 25 cents. (but I won't get it if you say so) :laugh:


Temirkanov's 13th would be TheOne if the recording was closer. :( What of Jansons's? Same soloist, good orchestra./// the only thing that could screw it up would be...


From the samples, Jarvi's 13th lacked conducting!?!?!?!


Solti's 13th impressed.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: relm1 on July 09, 2014, 12:36:52 PM
I was lucky enough to attend the Solti Shosti 13 with the Chicago Symphony live.  It was a shattering experience.  Solti spoke before the work saying he came late to appreciate Shostakovich but this music clearly touched him. 

I recommend the Collins/London Symphony/Maxim Shostakovich Symphony No. 5 and 10.  I think they're extremely well performed, phrased, and recorded.  It is generally of the sleepy style rather than the red hot Mavrinsky/Kondrashin interpretations.   Part of my love of Maxim Shostakovich might be sentimental because I think it's so cool that the son is conducting the father's music.

My go to list:

* No. 4: Haitink/Royal Concertgebouw/Decca (just a great combination of clarity/detail/intensity/quality)
* No. 5: Maxim Shostakovich/London Symphony/Collins (if I want lyrical and long phrased)
* No. 5: Mravinsky/Leningrad Philharmonic or Bernstein/NYPhil in Japan (if I prefer intensity over precision)
* No. 6: Haitink/London Philharmonic/Decca
* No. 7: Bernstein/Chicago Symphony/DG (so epic)
* No. 8: Haitink/Royal Concertgebouw/Decca
* No. 10: Maxim Shostakovich/London Symphony/Collins
* No. 11: No favorite - I like elements from many of them but no single one I've heard comes off as great as others do in various respects.  So this would probably be a frankenstien mishmash of recordings such as Stokowski/Houston for lyrical, Mravinsky for red bloodedness, Jansons/Philadelphia for overall quality
* No. 12: Haitink/Decca
* No. 13: Okko Kamu/City of Birmingham Orchestra and Chorus/Chandos
* No. 14: Petrenko/Bournemouth/Naxos
* No. 14: Haitink/Royal Concertgebouw (Live)
* No. 15: Haitink/Royal Concertgebouw (Live)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Octave on July 09, 2014, 09:56:05 PM
Thanks for that list, relm.  When you write:
Quote from: relm1 on July 09, 2014, 12:36:52 PM
* No. 7: Bernstein/Chicago Symphony/Chandos (so epic)
you mean DG, right?  I wanted to make sure I was not missing some dark horse Chandos label treasure.  I have the #7 coupled with #1 (DG/Grand Prix), which is something else.

Quote from: snyprrr on July 08, 2014, 02:20:14 PM
OK, I thought you were pushin' Rosty/DDG in 5?
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 09, 2014, 03:28:54 AM
I push both: one for the "Testament" ending (Slava) and one for the Happy Ending (Lenny). I think you need both types of performances in your collection.

I want to make sure you are talking about this one, Sarge:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81448%2BkWubL._SL1420_.jpg)
[asin]B00000E2NF[/asin]

I went back through several pages of thread but missed any mention of it.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 10, 2014, 04:30:01 AM
Quote from: Octave on July 09, 2014, 09:56:05 PM
When you write:you mean DG, right?

All three of Slava's recordings are similar in interpretation (with that ironic monster of a Finale, smiling through gritted teeth) . I have DG and Teldec (Warner), prefer the Teldec marginally because it has superior sonics (the DG is early digital, the Teldec was recorded twelve years later). Things like the piano entry are clearer in the Teldec (the brass swamp the piano in the DG). The opening two notes, so important to snyprrr, are bolder, more powerful.  I don't know if the Teldec is available outside the box, though. If not, DG will do. LSO Live is supposed to be good too.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: relm1 on July 10, 2014, 05:24:10 AM
Quote from: Octave on July 09, 2014, 09:56:05 PM
Thanks for that list, relm.  When you write:you mean DG, right?  I wanted to make sure I was not missing some dark horse Chandos label treasure.  I have the #7 coupled with #1 (DG/Grand Prix), which is something else.

Right!  Sorry about.  Corrected in my list.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: relm1 on July 10, 2014, 07:02:35 AM
Some of you might enjoy this website for trombone players that compares climactic extracts of various recordings. 

http://www.tromboneexcerpts.org/

Take a look at the Shostakovich Symphony No. 5 link and play through the examples - they are interesting in how interpretations and styles evolve especially over time and regions.  I have played this work (as a bass trombonist) and have a renews appreciation for the truly great performances.  To get that seriously ominous bass trombone sound in the first and last movement, you really need to overblow the instrument otherwise it just sounds tame.  Some interpreters really pulled out all the stops.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Octave on July 10, 2014, 07:08:26 AM
By the numbers:

1. Thanks Sarge for the descriptive reply re: Slava's #5.

2. Re: Masur's #13:
Quote from: snyprrr on July 09, 2014, 12:09:04 PM
What do you think of the famous Masur 13th? It's only 25 cents. (but I won't get it if you say so) :laugh:
Quote from: jlaurson on May 27, 2014, 01:28:51 AM
13: Kurt Masur / New York (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000SJ6/goodmusicguide-20)
Quote from: karlhenning on May 27, 2014, 09:59:00 AM
Leiferkus with Masur is great;  as is Aleksashkin with Jansons.  What's keeping you?!

Just quoting these because they were among the reasons I just bought the Masur several days ago.  I know it will not be my last lucky 13.  I ran across some demurrals about the performance as a whole but I am a fledgling Leiferkus nut so that's that.

3. Karl, have you talked about the Kremer #14 before?  I searched this thread and the Dacha and saw no mention.  I just got Currentzis', so it feels a little soon; but special is special...
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on July 10, 2014, 07:25:56 AM
Quote from: Octave on July 10, 2014, 07:08:26 AM
By the numbers:

1. Thanks Sarge for the descriptive reply re: Slava's #5.

2. Re: Masur's #13:
Just quoting these because they were among the reasons I just bought the Masur several days ago.  I know it will not be my last lucky 13.  I ran across some demurrals about the performance as a whole but I am a fledgling Leiferkus nut so that's that.

3. Karl, have you talked about the Kremer #14 before?  I searched this thread and the Dacha and saw no mention.  I just got Currentzis', so it feels a little soon; but special is special...

Are you saying Masur hasn't arrived yet? Please do chime in- I'll hold off until you do.

Honestly, I've got half a mind to get John Shirley-Quirk in 13 (with Shallon conducting Dusseldorf on Koch). What's your first reaction to that? Possibility- or no?


And- just for the record- I did it again- we'll see- I got the Jarvi 14th. (I can't afford many more failures) gulp




BTW- EVERYONE- I JUST HAPPEN TO HAVE Inbal No.3 HAVE NEVER EVER HEARD MUSIC- SHOULD I- OR SHOULD I NOT? It has the worst reputation of just about any music I can think of. 36 minutes??? One movement???? (and- of course- who reigns supreme here?)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 10, 2014, 07:37:50 AM
Quote from: Octave on July 10, 2014, 07:08:26 AM
3. Karl, have you talked about the Kremer #14 before?  I searched this thread and the Dacha and saw no mention.  I just got Currentzis', so it feels a little soon; but special is special...

Not in much detail:

Quote from: karlhenning on July 09, 2014, 07:08:59 AM
Incidentally, this may just be my favorite Fourteenth:

Since our snypsss is so particklar about the Malagueña, I did note that I have not heard snappier castanets anywhere else 8)

And the soloists are impeccable.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: North Star on July 10, 2014, 07:42:22 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 10, 2014, 07:37:50 AM
Not in much detail:

Since our snypsss is so particklar about the Malagueña, I did note that I have not heard snappier castanets anywhere else 8)

And the soloists are impeccable.
Hm. I wouldn't mind having that..
(Hey, Karl, weren't you supposed to write about the Sibelius recordings? ;) )
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 10, 2014, 07:46:08 AM
I've mislaid the Bournemouth Symphony!  I'm lost!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: North Star on July 10, 2014, 07:51:27 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 10, 2014, 07:46:08 AM
I've mislaid the Bournemouth Symphony!  I'm lost!
Oh. :( In that case, carry on..
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise (((SANDERLING CLEVELAND 15)))
Post by: snyprrr on July 11, 2014, 07:26:38 PM
Yes, everyone... Sarge... yes, that Sanderling/Cleveland is everything anyone ever said about it. I had no idea how he was going to make 20 minutes, but he did it, and I totally forgot how the piece went, his vision was so compelling. There's a Fellini-esque pall over the recording which highlights all the 'dead' sounds of the percussion, and one can hear DSCH as the plucky hero with forced clown make-up, putting on a show. I couldn't get over how 'theatrical' this performance is, making every 'voice' a character (not that others don't, buuut...), I felt like I was in some creepy TV Movie of the Week from 1971.

Obviously, Sanderling wins some kind of Award, but it's hard to say which one(s). Is it Genius, or Guts? I mean, you can try it in rehearsal, but if this is actually what you show the 'studio heads', isn't it really Guts that you have? Brass Balls! Petrenko, Caetani, and Wigglesworth are all trying things in their Cycles, but, have any of them come close to transforming any Opus the way Sanderling does here? Anyone else? Is this the most outre- well, obviously it is (maybe that really slow VC1 on Berlin comes close?)- maybe Lenny 7? Mravinsky's LandSpeedrecord?

What are some of your other favorite extreme DSCH?

Very impressed with Sanderling here- the creepy recording fits the music to a 't'. The playing is uniformly excellent. Here's is an experiment that worked! Wow!


(BUUUT!!! My Ashkenazy 9/15 yields nothing to Sanderling. The Decca sound is some of the absolute best ever; Ashkenazy plays everything 'Early Russians' fast, making it a perfect compare to Sanderling- the last movement, of course, in particular. As I was listening to Sanderling, I just couldn't imagine hoe Ashkenazy was going to fit it all under 14 minutes. I am currently touting Ashkenazy and Rostropovich as two extremely well recorded (Rosty sounds more like Sanderling) performances that have something to say at every turn. Cheap. Jarvi should arrive shortly, looking forward.)

Can't get over how Sanderling made the music so brand new to me, Bravo! That's why they call 'em 'Maestro', I guess!!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on July 12, 2014, 03:38:19 AM
I have been really enjoying this CD. It is not nearly as 'bleak' at the start compared to nearly all other recordings I have heard but the tension builds up inexorably as the work progresses (try from 12 minutes into the second movement!) and the ending was terrifically exciting. It was interesting to hear a 'warmer' approach to Shostakovich's 11th Symphony, which to me at least related it more to the Russian symphonic tradition. Coincidentally I was watching a video of a very old BBC documentary series on the First World War recently and noticed that they were using this work as background music (along with Sinfonia Antartica by Vaughan Williams). Fantastic recording too. Performance is 57 minutes; faster than many I think but justified in Jordania's overall conception.
[asin]B000056N79[/asin]
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on July 12, 2014, 06:32:34 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 12, 2014, 03:38:19 AM
I have been really enjoying this CD. It is not nearly as 'bleak' at the start compared to nearly all other recordings I have heard but the tension builds up inexorably as the work progresses (try from 12 minutes into the second movement!) and the ending was terrifically exciting. It was interesting to hear a 'warmer' approach to Shostakovich's 11th Symphony, which to me at least related it more to the Russian symphonic tradition. Coincidentally I was watching a video of a very old BBC documentary series on the First World War recently and noticed that they were using this work as background music (along with Sinfonia Antartica by Vaughan Williams)'. Fantastic recording too. Performance is 57 minutes; faster than many I think but justified in Jordania's overall conception.
[asin]B000056N79[/asin]

How are the dynamic level at the opening? Can one heard the harp pluck well? Does one have to play Volume Control Jockey? These are things we need to know! ;)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on July 13, 2014, 01:34:39 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 12, 2014, 06:32:34 AM
How are the dynamic level at the opening? Can one heard the harp pluck well? Does one have to play Volume Control Jockey? These are things we need to know! ;)

I was playing on a very lo-fi system in our study yesterday but I will play it again ASAP on the better system and get back to you. On the whole I found the recording to be both vivid and with considerable depth.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise (((ASHKENAZY 5)))
Post by: snyprrr on July 15, 2014, 07:07:26 AM
Ashkenazy Op.47

This was Ashkenazy's first recording with the RPO, and some have criticized its seeming tentative quality. Though the very opening is not recorded anywhere near as up front as, say, Lenny '59, the opening fits in with the reading. Otherwise, once things get going, look out! The Decca sound here can NOT be beat- just listen to the 'Largo'- everything registers with supreme hushed clarity. And the ending has some nice, biting brass.

Many like this issue as a Top Choice. I certainly recommend alongside other interpretations- use Ashkenazy as an MOR test. Rosty/DDG and Lenny '79 are on their way...
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise (((AWFUL!!!)))
Post by: snyprrr on July 16, 2014, 01:53:35 PM
Symphony No.13
Shirley-Quirk/Shallon (Koch)

Wow!

I was really looking forward to hearing the great John Shirley-Quirk blow me away here,... yes,... wait for it... BUUUT! the Koch engineers were having none of it. What greeted me here was the lowest wattage recording I think I've ever encountered. Fury ensues from the moment music begins to whimper from your speakers, and not until JSQ begins to sing do we get any sound source near any microphone. >:D

I have tired of 'live' recordings, never knowing who to trust and who not to trust. This new trend in the Shostakovich recordings seems to yield recordings that everyone raves about, until one gets it home and hears that dreaded 'dynamic' range that sends one to the volume knob every sixteen bars. Of course, that's not the problem here in this record:- I turned it up quite a bit and it was still a terrible modern recording. Well, that smarted.. :(

As good as JSQ is, the recording just doesn't do justice to whatever is going on in that auditorium. (I mean, you CAN hear it and all, but you will not be happy)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise (((PREVIN/EMI 8)))
Post by: snyprrr on July 16, 2014, 02:04:25 PM
Is there one as good as Previn EMI  but just in the Most Modern Sound? It's really good
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise (((SOLTI 13 falls to HAITINK))
Post by: snyprrr on July 16, 2014, 02:35:20 PM
Wow, my attempt at replacing Haitink's 13th has been met with the fiercest resistance by Benny and the Hets!- with Marius Rintzler holding up very nicely against all odds. So, I had really high expectations for Solti (and masur's on his way to the ring) and they were immediately demolished by that confounding 'ppp' opening that only Haitink seems to... ::)... overplay... oy veeey...

So, Solti's acoustic is much much tighter than Haintink's wonderful mausoleum of stone and bell. The chorus comes in at an acceptable level, but, because there's no acoustic, well, there's no 'It'. And, then, the introduction of Aleksashkin that I'd been anticipating- uh, well, Rintzler's just as good, and doesn't have that deep vibrato thing that a lot of these guys have.

So, I did NOT make it very far into the Solti before I put Haitink back on in disgust. So, Masur, you're next! We're waiting...


Maybe I'm just used to this Haitink- or maybe it just has the best opening?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise SYMPHONY 8 TIMINGS CHART
Post by: snyprrr on July 16, 2014, 04:44:56 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 28, 2014, 02:54:08 PM
Symphony No.8 Op.65



Kofman                    30:08     6:29     6:52     11:01     16:14
Kitajenko                  29:37     7:01     6:20     11:10     15:03

Wigglesworth           29:10    7:00     6:47     10:35     16:19


Inbal                        28:05     6:37     6:51     10:00     16:00
Gergiev2                  28:04     6:02     6:14     9:57     15:20
Previn2                    27:54     6:16     6:09    13:17     14:17
Svetlanov                 27:44     6:45     6:01     10:02     14:44
Berglund                  27:44     6:34     6:48      9:39      15:33


Sanderling               27:10     6:36     6:46     10:32     15:27
Levi                         26:52     6:29     6:09     11:13     13:23

Rostropovich'live'      26:34     6:46     7:07     12:01     16:16
Slatkin                     26:30     6:12     5:55     9:43     13:06
Jarvi                        26:28     6:42     5:54     9:54     14:28

Herbig                     26:18     6:20     6:04     10:37     14:00


Barshai(Cl-f-Pl)       25:58     6:44     6:37     9****1     14:03
Bychkov'live'            25:58     6:25     6:00     9:10     14:25
Rostropovitch          25:52     6:16    6:58     10:23     14:45
Solti                        25:45     6:30     6:27     9:42      14:32 
Gergiev1                 25:37     6:00     6:16     10:48     14:40

Rodzinsky               25:23     5:58     5:26      8:29     13:00
Petrenko                 25:12     5:55     6:12      9:34     14:47
Previn1                   25:08     5:53    5:34     11:16     13:23
Bychkov1                25:01     5:59     6:24     10:24     14:43
Ashkenazy              25:00     5:57     6:11      9:36     13:49

Mravinsky               24:40     6:17     5:54     9:29     13:30
Rozhdesventsky      24:37     6:30     7:49     9:37     13:35
Jansons                  24:29     6:27     6:20    10:02    15:10
Kondrashin(studio)  23:57     5:44     6:04     8:28     12:33
Kondrashin(live)      21:54     5:34     5:36     6:32     12:41

Caetani                  20:44     5:52     6:01      7:40    13:19
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: aukhawk on July 17, 2014, 03:44:44 AM
Again, Caetani the speed demon has lengthy applause ending the final movement - the timing to end of music is 12:20
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise HAITINK 8 QUESTION
Post by: snyprrr on July 17, 2014, 08:51:45 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on July 17, 2014, 03:44:44 AM
Again, Caetani the speed demon has lengthy applause ending the final movement - the timing to end of music is 12:20

check


So, IS there any viable alternative to Haitink in the 8th? I'm most curious about Jansons, Bychkov/Philips, Gergiev/Philips- I REMEMBER when Haitink was the shizzle, and then all these other 8ths came out (I thought Bychkov got raves at the time?) and I couldn't keep up with whether Haitink had been displaced or not. According to just about EVERYONE, Haitink has NOT been replaced. Anyone?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise HAITINK 8 QUESTION
Post by: vandermolen on July 17, 2014, 11:56:46 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 17, 2014, 08:51:45 AM
check


So, IS there any viable alternative to Haitink in the 8th? I'm most curious about Jansons, Bychkov/Philips, Gergiev/Philips- I REMEMBER when Haitink was the shizzle, and then all these other 8ths came out (I thought Bychkov got raves at the time?) and I couldn't keep up with whether Haitink had been displaced or not. According to just about EVERYONE, Haitink has NOT been replaced. Anyone?

I would say that the Previn EMI (not DGG) version is as good and there is a great historic Mravinsky version too.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise HAITINK 8 QUESTION
Post by: snyprrr on July 17, 2014, 12:30:04 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 17, 2014, 11:56:46 AM
I would say that the Previn EMI (not DGG) version is as good and there is a great historic Mravinsky version too.

Previn/EMI & Haitink it is.

The Haitink WAS the Very.First.Classical. I ever heard, and here we come full circle! (so, obviously those first notes made a Heavy Metal Impact!)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise ( HAITINK 13TH vs ALL COMERS)
Post by: snyprrr on July 17, 2014, 12:45:27 PM
jUST GAVE MASUR 13 THE 2 MINUTE TEST

Aye aye aye- HAITINK WINS AGAIN!!- what is up with all these Super Star versions that just can't match Haitink's engineering in the opening? Most all are SO quite one can't hear the opening bell. wtf???

Solti was ok, but the acoustic didn't bloom.

Masur was ok, but there was something- I will check again.


WHAT IS THIS ARGUMENT that Haitink is so draggy here? I guess I'm used to it, because that opening can't seem to be matched by anyone (Kamu's good, but then the choir is just a tad recessed).


So, I thought that either Solti or Masur would do the job and now I am left believing that this Haitink might be one of the All-Time Best Recordings Ever? (look, I can't afford Maxim/Supraphon at the moment)-

AND THE SINGERS??? Sorry, but I was shocked. I thought 'Authentic Russian Basses' would be a revelation, BUT, SHOCKINGLY I prefer Rintzler to both Aleksashkin (Solti) or Lieferkus (Masur). Both have this giant wobble thing that is missing from the tighter Rintzler. STOROJEV, singing for Kamu (Chandos) DOES have the good 'It Factor' and handily beat Rintzler, but, again, I was disappointed at the recessed choir entry (and yes, that WILL ruin for Mr. Picky Pants!).

I MEAN- WTF????

I really liked Mikaulas(?) in Slovak's 14 (Naxos) and I just wonder if that 13th will have all the other ingredients? (there is no wild consensus here, so, I doubt that there will be much surprise)-



Anyhow, ALL HAIL ST. HAITINK IN THE 13TH!! (yes, Virginia, he's not as bad as you thought)


There is an Amazon Reviewer who says, about the Sondeckis/SONY: "Finally we have one to replace Haitink." But I heard another word that said not quite.


Anyhow, I think I'm done with the 13th. No one is making me feel the way Haitink does at the chilling opening. (sounds like 'Castle Music' from Wiz/Oz).
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on July 17, 2014, 01:04:52 PM
This is how the DSCH Library has come along since we started this a few months ago:


1- Lenny1
    Lenny2

2

3                             

4- Jarvi
    Rostropovich- I like both, but Rosty's rec. is a little cleaner (as we all know)



5- Lenny59(library)- this one is hottt!!
    Lenny79
    Ashkenazy
    RostropovichDDG
    Mackerras'live'BBC

6- Lenny1(SONY)

7- Lenny2(DDG)

8- Previn73
    Haitink

9- Ashkenazy (w/15- I didn't get this specifically, but it's pretty tight, still- looking for more)      Inbal(library)        Lenny59(library)

10- Karajan82(that I've had forever)
      Litton/Virgin
      Shipway(BBC)
      A.Davis(EMI)



11- Stokowski(that I've had forever)

12



13- Haitink(that I've had forever)
      Masur
      Solti
     Shallon (Koch)

14- Haitink
      Jarvi
      Lazarev(Virgin)

      Slovak
     Rostropovich
     Inbal

15- Sanderlin/Cleveland
      Ashkenazy
      Jansons
      Solti
      Rostropovich
      Jarvi



Obviously still lots of work to be done. Waddaya think?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on July 17, 2014, 02:48:55 PM
Interesting list. I would add Kondrashin for No. 4 (premiere recording on Melodiya), Previn is also excellent in No. 4 with the Chicago SO. My favourite No. 15 was my old LP with Maxim Shostakovich conducting on EMI/Melodiya which has unbelievably never been released on CD. I have an extraordinary CD of Symphony No 10 with Rozhdestvensky conducting in London on the day in 1968 when the USSR invaded Czechoslovakia. The performance begins in the most extraordinary way with members of the audience shouting out angry protests 'Go Home!' etc. The way in which the opening of Shostakovich's 10th Symphony emerges from the turmoil is quite extraordinary.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise (((SYMPHONY 7)))
Post by: snyprrr on July 17, 2014, 05:00:48 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 17, 2014, 02:48:55 PM
Interesting list. I would add Kondrashin for No. 4 (premiere recording on Melodiya), Previn is also excellent in No. 4 with the Chicago SO. My favourite No. 15 was my old LP with Maxim Shostakovich conducting on EMI/Melodiya which has unbelievably never been released on CD. I have an extraordinary CD of Symphony No 10 with Rozhdestvensky conducting in London on the day in 1968 when the USSR invaded Czechoslovakia. The performance begins in the most extraordinary way with members of the audience shouting out angry protests 'Go Home!' etc. The way in which the opening of Shostakovich's 10th Symphony emerges from the turmoil is quite extraordinary.

Yea, there's a lot of good stuff that's either 'Not', or is too $$$, or is out of my reach for whatever reason. But, thankfully, some of the TopChoices are available pretty cheap!


So, I finally listened to Symphony No.7 for the FIRST TIME! ever... well, it sure starts off in a different mood than other things, but it soon sounds like Shosty. I was listening to Barshai on YT, and a bit of the Lenny DDG, and, I don't think I'd have a problem with Lenny here- I don't think I'd want a 'sober' performance of this. Anyhow, 7's a bit different but still a lot like the propaganda music. 8 is more like the absolute music. (6 too)

I also listen to the first two sections of Mavrinsky's 12th- also my first here, and, it's more appealing than 3, at least. Now i only have 2 left.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on July 17, 2014, 11:52:18 PM
By the way there is a really good CD coupling Shostakovich Symphony No.5 (Mravinsky) with Miaskovsky Symphony 15 (Kondrashin). One comparative survey I read claimed that it was the best performance of the Shostakovich and also it is a great introduction to Miaskovsky. It is also very inexpensive on Amazon.com.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 18, 2014, 03:18:49 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 17, 2014, 11:52:18 PM
By the way there is a really good CD coupling Shostakovich Symphony No.5 (Mravinsky) with Miaskovsky Symphony 15 (Kondrashin). One comparative survey I read claimed that it was the best performance of the Shostakovich and also it is a great introduction to Miaskovsky. It is also very inexpensive on Amazon.com.

What, no link?!  8)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 18, 2014, 03:20:46 AM
This 'un, I guess:

[asin]B00002541V[/asin]
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise KARL---TOP JANSONS????
Post by: snyprrr on July 18, 2014, 03:47:01 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 18, 2014, 03:20:46 AM
This 'un, I guess:

[asin]B00002541V[/asin]

If you could have ONLY ONE Jansons??


No.1- Berlin- this one has been highly criticized, and no one buys this

Nos. 2/12- BRSO- they say this one's tops

Nos. 3/14- BRSO- some like this a lot; I can't take the soprano

No.4-BRSO?- Most everyone at least recommends this as competent, so, this should be somewhat a recommend, eh?

5(Oslo)- replaced by
5(Vienna)- some like this one a lot, and why wouldn't one want to hear Vienna in this?? so what if it's 'Viennese'???

Nos.6/9- Oslo- mimicking the famous Bernstein 6/9 split, I have only general positive feedback, nothing specific (orchestra plays great)

No.7- Leningrad- well??

No.8- Pittsburgh- IS THIS THE ONE?

No.10- Philadelphia- does it fall to No.8?

No.11- London- how does this stack up against the Greats (and who are they??)

No.13-BRSO- IS THIS THE ONE? (you know how Masur, Solti, et al have disappointed me) does the opening have The IT?

No.15-London- this is the only one I have, and I was initially disappointed. Though he still contends with the likes of Solti, I don't see how this can be a Top3.




As far as Rattle-


No.1- no one's touting this

No.4- Jansons seems to win in direct comparison

No.10- no one's really touting this

No.14- some like it







Haitink seems to rule 8 and 13

Ashkenazy has some ARDENT admirers, liking his 4, 5, 7, 10,... I do like his low wattage 5th, and love the 9/15 performances.

Rostropovich is a Sleeper, having admirers in 1/9, 2/3, 4, both 5ths (though I'm not all that keen on the Teldecm STILL waiting on DDG!), 7, 14, and 15, though 13 may be good,... they don't like his 8th, not sure about 10---- surely 11 must have a ppppppp opening?

Jarvi rocks in 1/6, 2/3, 45678910- but I'm recommending to stay far away from 11-15.


Slovak is good in 4 and 14

Caetani's controversial set has gotten stand out reviews i n 11 and 14 and maybe 10, maybe 1/15

Kofman has gotten good reviews in, I think, 7,... 5/9??... 14... 13?- he apparently has some problems

Inbal has a very intriguing second 5th; however, he consistently gets middlin to wrong reviews- 14 gets praise,... 4... 13?...

I'll let Ray do Petrenko
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: kishnevi on July 18, 2014, 05:54:28 PM
Have you taken a look at Rostropovich's LSO recordings
5 8 11
I think 8 and 11 beat most of the competition I have heard except Kondrashin.  Both 8 snd 11 are definitely better than Haitink.
Title: Re: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles &amp; Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 18, 2014, 07:30:51 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 18, 2014, 05:54:28 PM
Have you taken a look at Rostropovich's LSO recordings
5 8 11
I think 8 and 11 beat most of the competition I have heard except Kondrashin.  Both 8 and 11 are definitely better than Haitink.

Dadfrazzanabit, sir, you interest me.
Title: Re: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles &amp; Otherwise KARL---TOP JANSONS????
Post by: Karl Henning on July 18, 2014, 07:35:24 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 18, 2014, 03:47:01 PM
If you could have ONLY ONE Jansons??

Well, I remember an excellent Eighth, practically as fine as Haitink's. I still think better of his Fifteenth than you appear to.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise KARL---TOP JANSONS????
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 19, 2014, 06:18:33 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 18, 2014, 03:47:01 PM
Rostropovich....both 5ths (though I'm not all that keen on the Teldecm STILL waiting on DDG!)

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 10, 2014, 04:30:01 AM
All three of Slava's recordings are similar in interpretation (with that ironic monster of a Finale, smiling through gritted teeth) . I have DG and Teldec (Warner), prefer the Teldec marginally because it has superior sonics (the DG is early digital, the Teldec was recorded twelve years later). Things like the piano entry are clearer in the Teldec (the brass swamp the piano in the DG). The opening two notes, so important to snyprrr, are bolder, more powerful.  I don't know if the Teldec is available outside the box, though. If not, DG will do. LSO Live is supposed to be good too.
Title: Re: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles &amp; Otherwise
Post by: kishnevi on July 19, 2014, 10:04:34 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 18, 2014, 07:30:51 PM
Dadfrazzanabit, sir, you interest me.
It is true that my opinion is influenced by the fact that Slava/LSO was my introduction to 8 and 11, but even more important the recordings that sparked my interest in DSCH.  So perhaps I am  bit biased about them.  But dadfrazzanabit the are excellent performances.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise THE GREAT 5TH DEBATE
Post by: snyprrr on July 20, 2014, 08:56:03 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 19, 2014, 06:18:33 AM


sLAVA/ddg FINALLY ARRIVED! (whoops!)

Hold on a second and let's recap, before I tell you how I feel about Slava/DDG. This has been an interesting re-examination. So far:

Lenny59(library)
Lenny79
Mackerras
Ashkenazy
Haitink(library)
Rostropovich/DDG
Rostropovich/Teldec(YouTube)


First, can you guess which one I liked best? (though, frankly, I'm not sure any are Absolutely Perfect) Please do guess- it's such a fun game...



ok, let's start from the bottom- AND AS YOU KNOW, THE FIRST NOTES ARE GOING TO EITHER THRILL OR INFLAME-

Ashkenazy- this was my 5th back in the day, picked over Haitink due to Penguin Guide saying how 'icy' the slow movement was. Well,- look- I got it again, and- I still like it a lot, but YES it IS THE MOST low wattage opening of all the above. SantaFe calls it "piffle". He actually warms up from there, and though it IS quite a careful interpretation (it was their first together), there IS still this icy clarity in a very cool Decca sound (smallish, but not boxy) which makes it the perfect version to bounce things off. And the first thing you're going to want to bounce, is the other Decca, Haitink-

Haitink- just found it at the library,... put it in... waiting for the first notes- AHHH- Haitink is full of Win from the opening, thank God, the only thing is I'd rather not have the low and high strings so separated, but, other than that, the SOUND is Spectacularly good, as everyone knows. And, anyhow, people have little quibbles with this or that with Haitink, but, generally, he makes a great foil to Ashkenazy above.

Mackerras- his opening, at first, sounds even smaller than Ashkenazy's, but, on further review, Ashkenazy has the smallest opening. Mackerras is simply playing possum and gets pretty loud later (he's actually pretty butch in the opening, it's just recorded small right there). Once the smallish opening wears off, however, Mackerras begins to let loose, and his brass is quite succulent in the big climaxes. I put Mackerras slightly above Ashkenazy (but not in Sound) and slightly below Haitink (but only for Sound really- Mackerras might be the best overall performance, but the other two have orgasmic sound).

Rosty/Teldec- something just rubbed me the wrong way here... I don't know... very fierce...

Rosty/DDG- well, that opening?- HAAATED it- I mean, you know it's boxy and all... I mean, it almost sounds as small as the Ashkenazy, but it does actually have an extra decibel or two, but, I mean, that is one boxy DDG acoustic. LISTEN CLOSE to that first note: I hear a 'coffee cup' sound as if the basses are slapping the strings- you can hear the unflattering acoustic right behind them.

Frankly, I wanted to throw it across the room. WHO ARE these people- who recommend this, I'm thinking. AND THEN!!!!!! then there's the "rough and ready" 9read: SLOPPY!!!!) NSO, wow, I know I heard a slur in the first movement.

OK OK OK- now the GOOD NEWS!!

Actually, the famous ending - I didn't even noticed that it was different (it was just... The Ending). I forgot how the fast ones went (just as I forgot this one when they played). But, yea, I certainly liked the ending!

I'll admit that I found the orchestra's somewhat amateur sounding playing endearing. There are some really strange string sounds in the slow movement that popped my eyes, but they sounded 'cool' even though they must have been technically a flub. And even though the recording sounded like a veiled Ozawa recording (with the xylophone and piano hiding), there were moments when the sheer brutality did cut through.

To me, this Rosty sounds like a brontosaurus,... which... CAN be cool! I CAN hear the 'history' and blah blah.  But I have to call it Guilty Pleasure in a way, mm?

Lenny59- WWWWWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAA??????????????????????????? FLIPPITY DING DONGS!!!!

Maaan,... HELLO!!- someone finally got that opening correct!! This Lenny is THE LOUDEST high wattage recording of the bunch, and by a wide margin. Lenny79 follows, then Haitink. But, you know, who can tell this is 1959? I can't. Now THIS is what I call 'rough and ready!!

Really, people do complain about this one a LOT! The sound, the this, the that. Eh. The mere fact that I don't have to ride the volume knob  is Point #1. And, generally, there is a high level of emotion (though Rosty pretty well takes it). Sure, the ending is "too" fast in the blatant word, but, I guess I'll give Lenny a pass just like I gave Ashkenazy a pass? I mean, it seems like it would be a toss-up between this and Haitink for me,... and that's why I'd probably have to pick Ashkenazy. MAKE NO MISTAKE- THIS is definitely the Best Overall so far, for me and my purpose at this time,... I can't give it a bad rating no matter what the problems are.

Lenny79- that leaves the other end of controversy. My immediate reaction to the opening here was, "It's kinda bassy." Not boomy, but one of those open...mm...RCA sounds? But, once your hearing adjusts, things seem to go by just fine. Had we the immediacy of any of the other recordings we might have a winner, but there are so many factors in play. This was by far the most funereal so far (though no match for Maxim?) and as such seemed like another Special Awards Winner and not necessarily a First Choice. Though, he does get that opening right, again! (I just don't get why anyone would do otherwise than to PROCLAIM that opening (you can't just STATE it))


So, now you've actually got me needing to hear Mravinsky (which year??label??). I can't be any more disappointed, haha!??!!

BUT...SO...

That leaves some questions that DEMAND answers!!! Someone please tell me what Qualifies or Disqualifies the following:

Bychkov1 (Philips)

Muti (EMI)

Solti (Solti)

Jansons2 (EMI)

Inbal2 (Denon)

Jansons2 and Inbal2 especially have garnered some interesting reviews. Who doesn't want Vienna? But- is Muti as barbaric as his 'Le Sacre'? Is Solti viable? Inquiring minds want to know! Bychkov just sits there asking, Am I any good? Look, I've got Berlin! Love me! WhoWHO??

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: aukhawk on July 20, 2014, 09:56:49 AM
Once I have more than 3 versions of a piece I tend to file the least-loved away into a 'never to be listened to again' folder.  Of the five versions of the 5th I've got, the two I've disposed of have been Inbal, and Haitink.  Neither of them are really 'edgy' enough for me, in Shostakovich, even the 5th which is perhaps his least-edgy symphony. 
And I could say the same about the sound - a Rolls-Royce-type plush audio quality doesn't really help, for me.  But then I bought a lot of Melodiya records back in the '70s, which could explain that.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on July 20, 2014, 05:42:07 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on July 20, 2014, 09:56:49 AM
Once I have more than 3 versions of a piece I tend to file the least-loved away into a 'never to be listened to again' folder.  Of the five versions of the 5th I've got, the two I've disposed of have been Inbal, and Haitink.  Neither of them are really 'edgy' enough for me, in Shostakovich, even the 5th which is perhaps his least-edgy symphony. 
And I could say the same about the sound - a Rolls-Royce-type plush audio quality doesn't really help, for me.  But then I bought a lot of Melodiya records back in the '70s, which could explain that.

That's the 2nd Inbal, with Frankfurt (instead of ViennSOa)??

Yea, I was actually thinking Lenny79 sounded a bit plush (even though it has such a 'bleak' reputation)- but I could handle that level of it. Yea, I was wondering if Bychkov/philips or Jansons/ViennaPO would be 'too plush'.

Actually, I can handle Haitink, but if I just found someone one notch higher I might put him away too. Mackerras has actually raised a few points from my initial lashing.

Who did you keep? (lemme guess- Mavrinsky, Rosty1, "anonymous Decca")
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: aukhawk on July 21, 2014, 12:27:56 AM
(checks dusty, unlit corner) no, the Inbal 5th I've got is the VSO, coupled with the 2nd on Denon.
For keepers my main man is Previn/LSO, with Petrenko for the 'alternative ending', and Svetlanov.  But hey, I probably only listen to this music once in 2 years - so even 3 versions might last me the rest of my lifetime!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise-\ BERNSTEIN 6TH-which one?
Post by: snyprrr on July 22, 2014, 07:17:28 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 08, 2014, 12:03:38 PM
Yes, I mean the one coupled with Ma/Ormandy.

Haitink hits the spot, Bernstein too. I was disappointed by Järvi and Rostropovich. I have Termirkov, and a half dozen others too, but have no memory of them. I should conduct a not-so-blind comparison.

Sarge

Which Bernstein did you like in the 6th? I just noticed the SONY  (1966?)- The DDG has always gotten tepid reviews, but this SONY gets pretty high marks. and it comes with what they say is a Mahlerian 1st. (and how does THAT compare to DDG 1/7?). I think I'd rather have the 1st dealt with in this fashion...

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on July 22, 2014, 12:59:46 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 18, 2014, 03:20:46 AM
This 'un, I guess:

[asin]B00002541V[/asin]

Yes, Karl that's the one - great disc.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise-\ BERNSTEIN 6TH-which one?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 22, 2014, 01:05:33 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 22, 2014, 07:17:28 AM
Which Bernstein did you like in the 6th?

DG...I don't know the Sony. Late Lenny is always controversial. I'm not surprised there are negative reviews.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise-\ MORE USELESS KNOWLEDGE
Post by: snyprrr on July 22, 2014, 07:00:16 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 22, 2014, 01:05:33 PM
DG...I don't know the Sony. Late Lenny is always controversial. I'm not surprised there are negative reviews.

Sarge

I might try that earlier one.

Here's some 'leftovers' combinations:


1+2+3:

Wigglesworth
Kondrashin(Japan)


1+3:

Haitink
Rozh

Slovak
Petrenko


2+3:

Haitink
Jarvi
Rosty


1+9:

Weller
Susskind

Haitink
Rosty


1+6:

Bernstein/SONY
Jarvi
Ashkenazy
Temirkanov
Fedosseyev
Skrowaczewski?
Sanderling
Pletnev
Boreyko
Kofman


5+9:

Mravinsky
Rozh
Rahbari
Bernstein
Levi
Haitink
Gergiev
Temirkanov
Petrenko
Slovak
Kreizberg
Caetani
Kofman
Spivakov
Kosler
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise SOLTI 999- TWO VERSIONS??
Post by: snyprrr on July 28, 2014, 09:36:22 AM
Solti

recorded two 9s

one with Vienna

one with Canegie... both 'live' I believe?...



Does anyone have the direct compare?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise SOLTI 999- TWO VERSIONS??
Post by: snyprrr on July 28, 2014, 07:39:16 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 28, 2014, 09:36:22 AM
Solti

recorded two 9s

one with Vienna

one with Canegie... both 'live' I believe?...



Does anyone have the direct compare?

Also, Anyone able to compare Solti's Vienna 5th and Jansons's Vienna 5th?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Madiel on July 29, 2014, 06:41:29 AM
I started reading this thread at page 1...

...parts of it are hilarious. There's some calm, measured posting, but there's also all sorts of vicious sniping and culture wars and sonic arguments and...

...then I got to page 46, where snyprrr says he's read the thread from the beginning and declares it NOT VERY HELPFUL! That cracked me up.

I note that there's another 16 pages since then, in the space of a couple of months. Are they going to be helpful pages? *makes cup of tea*
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Madiel on July 29, 2014, 07:03:45 AM
By the way, the set I'm currently most interested in is probably Jansons. With one or two cautionary concerns which people might be able to address.

1. There's a lot of comments at Amazon about faulty pressings. Anyone had personal experience of this?

2. Are there texts for the vocal works?

3. Symphony No.14 is in Russian, right? I don't know that many conductors go for the alternative German or multilingual versions, but I want Russian.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: North Star on July 29, 2014, 07:24:51 AM
1. The faulty pressings must be very old, mine is fine (and a couple of years old).
2. Yes.
3. Yes.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Madiel on July 29, 2014, 07:39:53 AM
Excellent. Thanks!

The texts are a big plus. I've got Previn's account of symphony no.13, but it didn't come with texts. The first time I listened to it, I liked it but I only had a vague idea of what was going on. The second time, I had the Russian transliteration and an English translation in front of me thanks to the internet, and the Anne Frank passage in the first movement sent shivers up and down my spine.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on July 29, 2014, 08:20:17 AM
Quote from: orfeo on July 29, 2014, 06:41:29 AM
I started reading this thread at page 1...

...parts of it are hilarious. There's some calm, measured posting, but there's also all sorts of vicious sniping and culture wars and sonic arguments and...

...then I got to page 46, where snyprrr says he's read the thread from the beginning and declares it NOT VERY HELPFUL! That cracked me up.

I note that there's another 16 pages since then, in the space of a couple of months. Are they going to be helpful pages? *makes cup of tea*

BIG LOLZ! :laugh:

I think I've drained every last drop of patience from Karl and Sarge! ;D ??? :-[ :'( :blank:

My inquiry is always sonic. I assume everyone has the music burning in their lions and the only thing we want  is the clearest channel for all the good stuff and none of the bad stuff to pass from our ears and into our beings.

I think some of those charts I posted might be helpful,... and there are a lot of quirky comments by a LOT of people (in 16 Pages!). And we've covered most of the Symphonies and Concertos of import.

For instance, if you're looking at Jansons, according to 'The Will of the Thread'. his 13 and 8 get Absolute High Marks, 15 and the second 5th also, 2/12, and his 4th... then 10, 6/9, 7, 3/14, 11,... and, in the cellar (no one likes it) is his Berlin 1st.

Haitink, also, has the Highest Recommends for the 13th and 8th. Perhaps his weakest for you is his 14th with the translations.


I recommend going through all the Amazon Reviews as well... Santa Fe Listener you'll get to know, haha... but, i find him, and a lot of the sceptics, quite reliable. I place so much more weight on a single bad review rather than ten gushers. One example would be when everyone says this so-and-so is "the best recording ever" what they mean is that it is one of those new LSO 'live' recordings that has a hatefully wide dynamic range that will force you into volume knob back-and-forth mode. So, I won't get any modern 'live' albums- the old definition of a 'live' recording seemed to yield much more pleasing results to these ears (Lenny59 5th).

Take some chances on total dark horses (one offs)- 16 Pages ago Rostropovich's Cycle had a horrible reputation in my memory, but he's got some maybe First Choices imo. (1/9, 2/3, 4, 5DDG, 14, 15)

i'M SURE THE REGULARS WANT SOMEONE ELSE ASKING QUESTIONS FOR A WHILE! ;)


When you can snatch the melody from the third movement of the fourth symphony, then you have attained true... uh... yea... mm...
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise VIENNA CAN'T PLAY DSCH??
Post by: snyprrr on July 29, 2014, 08:37:31 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 28, 2014, 09:36:22 AM
Solti

recorded two 9s

one with Vienna

one with Canegie... both 'live' I believe?...



Does anyone have the direct compare?

I listened to the samples for both. Why would you want VIENNA playing the 9th? (or, DSCH in general) How can they possibly play such an unbuttoned work without smoothing it out? I listened to the Lenny Vienna 9 samples, and there too they sound just "too" good, or polished, or lush. I mean, sure, I'd like to hear the work nice and clear like that, but... isn't something always missing from a Vienna/DSCH performance? I looked at their Discography, and what small amount of stuff there is doesn't strike me as Definitive. Solti 5 and 9, Jansons 5, Lenny 6 and 9... I forget what else (Celibidache 7?). All of those recordings have been variously criticized for "too much perfection" (which isn't really perfection at all, is it?)- perhaps if they were to play one of the more deathly serious, such as 8, perhaps?

Berlin, too, was criticized in Rattle's 1st, for the same reason.

So, anyhow...

Solti's 9th with the Carnegie pick-up band is a wholly other matter apparently. The samples reveal soooo much more character than the perfect Vienna that it truly is night and day. Perhaps both would be good as foils to each other, but the Carnegie definitely seems to want a listen.


So, I also tried a compare of samples between Solti's Vienna 5 and Jansons's Vienna 5. Again, the sheer perfection of beauty of sound could almost be called a distraction, one wonders? jansons's recording is the more wonderful, though both are 'live'. Both conductors garner a bit of criticism, but, one wonders in the Jansons how much spectacularly sumptuous playing and sound can overcome interpretation. One is quite tempted to try Vienna in DSCH, but one then sometimes feels as though they are a brightly coloured mushroom, and one is again sceptical.

However, I would like to hear Vienna in the Chamber Symphony 110a. That would certainly be the most ritz that piece has ever gotten.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Madiel on July 29, 2014, 08:58:17 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 29, 2014, 08:20:17 AM
BIG LOLZ! :laugh:

I think I've drained every last drop of patience from Karl and Sarge! ;D ??? :-[ :'( :blank:

My inquiry is always sonic. I assume everyone has the music burning in their lions and the only thing we want  is the clearest channel for all the good stuff and none of the bad stuff to pass from our ears and into our beings.

I think some of those charts I posted might be helpful,... and there are a lot of quirky comments by a LOT of people (in 16 Pages!). And we've covered most of the Symphonies and Concertos of import.

For instance, if you're looking at Jansons, according to 'The Will of the Thread'. his 13 and 8 get Absolute High Marks, 15 and the second 5th also, 2/12, and his 4th... then 10, 6/9, 7, 3/14, 11,... and, in the cellar (no one likes it) is his Berlin 1st.

Haitink, also, has the Highest Recommends for the 13th and 8th. Perhaps his weakest for you is his 14th with the translations.


I recommend going through all the Amazon Reviews as well... Santa Fe Listener you'll get to know, haha... but, i find him, and a lot of the sceptics, quite reliable. I place so much more weight on a single bad review rather than ten gushers. One example would be when everyone says this so-and-so is "the best recording ever" what they mean is that it is one of those new LSO 'live' recordings that has a hatefully wide dynamic range that will force you into volume knob back-and-forth mode. So, I won't get any modern 'live' albums- the old definition of a 'live' recording seemed to yield much more pleasing results to these ears (Lenny59 5th).

Take some chances on total dark horses (one offs)- 16 Pages ago Rostropovich's Cycle had a horrible reputation in my memory, but he's got some maybe First Choices imo. (1/9, 2/3, 4, 5DDG, 14, 15)

i'M SURE THE REGULARS WANT SOMEONE ELSE ASKING QUESTIONS FOR A WHILE! ;)


When you can snatch the melody from the third movement of the fourth symphony, then you have attained true... uh... yea... mm...

Oh, don't worry, I'm well aware of both your obsession with sonics and the incredibly fine detail of some of your reasons for marking down particular recordings.

The sonics, I do pay attention to (but not anything like to the same extent as you). The detailed readings... well, unlike you I'm usually looking for 1 version of things, and most of those things are pieces I don't already know. I'll be a little pickier about piano works I learned to play myself over the years, but beyond that if someone doesn't nail the little clarinet passage halfway through the 2nd movement, I'm not going to notice because I don't have previous knowledge of the little clarinet passage halfway through the 2nd movement that would give me an idea of what it means to 'nail it'.

I may well learn to love particular individual moments, but that's only going to happen AFTER I've got to know a work through a recording (to pick a recent example, anyone who fails to make enough of the last blare of brass in Sibelius' 4th is now going to be a disappointment, because I love what Ashkenazy does with it in the one recording I already have).  With Shostakovich symphonies I've only got Previn's 10th and 13th, and I haven't listened to them often enough to feel really familiar and to have much in the way of 'favourite moments that other recordings must live up to'. I did have a Naxos CD with the 15th and... either the 2nd or 3rd, I forget which... but it's location is lost in the mists of time and it's been so many years since I've heard it I have virtually no recollection.

I am, in short, largely a clean slate for this music. Which I'm well aware makes me a complete oddity in the world of this forum. I'm used to being a complete oddity in the world of this forum.

(Another reason for enjoying Holmboe - hardly ever different recordings to choose from...)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 29, 2014, 09:02:51 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 29, 2014, 08:20:17 AM
BIG LOLZ! :laugh:

I think I've drained every last drop of patience from Karl and Sarge! ;D ??? :-[ :'( :blank:

My inquiry is always sonic. I assume everyone has the music burning in their lions and the only thing we want  is the clearest channel for all the good stuff and none of the bad stuff to pass from our ears and into our beings.

I think some of those charts I posted might be helpful,... and there are a lot of quirky comments by a LOT of people (in 16 Pages!). And we've covered most of the Symphonies and Concertos of import.

For instance, if you're looking at Jansons, according to 'The Will of the Thread'. his 13 and 8 get Absolute High Marks, 15 and the second 5th also, 2/12, and his 4th... then 10, 6/9, 7, 3/14, 11,... and, in the cellar (no one likes it) is his Berlin 1st.

Haitink, also, has the Highest Recommends for the 13th and 8th. Perhaps his weakest for you is his 14th with the translations.


I recommend going through all the Amazon Reviews as well... Santa Fe Listener you'll get to know, haha... but, i find him, and a lot of the sceptics, quite reliable. I place so much more weight on a single bad review rather than ten gushers. One example would be when everyone says this so-and-so is "the best recording ever" what they mean is that it is one of those new LSO 'live' recordings that has a hatefully wide dynamic range that will force you into volume knob back-and-forth mode. So, I won't get any modern 'live' albums- the old definition of a 'live' recording seemed to yield much more pleasing results to these ears (Lenny59 5th).

Take some chances on total dark horses (one offs)- 16 Pages ago Rostropovich's Cycle had a horrible reputation in my memory, but he's got some maybe First Choices imo. (1/9, 2/3, 4, 5DDG, 14, 15)

i'M SURE THE REGULARS WANT SOMEONE ELSE ASKING QUESTIONS FOR A WHILE! ;)


When you can snatch the melody from the third movement of the fourth symphony, then you have attained true... uh... yea... mm...

Are you coming around at all yet on the Second and/or Third?  Are you considering at all the set conducting by the composer's son?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 29, 2014, 09:06:14 AM
Quote from: orfeo on July 29, 2014, 07:03:45 AM
3. Symphony No.14 is in Russian, right? I don't know that many conductors go for the alternative German or multilingual versions, but I want Russian.

I don't know of a German version;  at least, the score I have seen sets the source languages, and has some alternative rhythms for Russian translation of the non-Russian texts (i.e., all but the Küchelbecker).
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Madiel on July 29, 2014, 02:42:08 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 29, 2014, 09:06:14 AM
I don't know of a German version;  at least, the score I have seen sets the source languages, and has some alternative rhythms for Russian translation of the non-Russian texts (i.e., all but the Küchelbecker).

Well, from the information I've seen the score is showing you the alternative version, with the all-Russian one being what Shostakovich originally set. He did approve the multilingual one, though.
Title: Re: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles &amp; Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 29, 2014, 04:33:40 PM
Quote from: orfeo on July 29, 2014, 02:42:08 PM
Well, from the information I've seen the score is showing you the alternative version, with the all-Russian one being what Shostakovich originally set. He did approve the multilingual one, though.

Of course!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on July 29, 2014, 06:02:30 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 29, 2014, 09:02:51 AM
Are you coming around at all yet on the Second and/or Third?  Are you considering at all the set conducting by the composer's son?

I1) t's only been a week! :P Haitink, Jarvi, or Rostropovich?

2) I'VE considered it; my wallet said, I caaan't. :(
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise (((110a)))
Post by: snyprrr on July 29, 2014, 06:26:34 PM
Chamber Symphony for Strings Op.100a arr. Barshai


Not even a piece I even care for, but, due to DSCHMania I'm having to give it a go. I had it on Lazarev's 14th, and, already my perceptions were skewed. As it turns out, Lazarev's is by far the slowest on record that I sampled, and has an amazing lack of tension and frisson. I actually thought it should have been slower, but then I saw that everyone else is quite quick in comparison.

The are MANY recordings of this piece now, so many in fact that if one were looking for the 'Classic' rendition, where would one go? Barshai on DDG? Boughton on Nimbus? Janson's Vienna? Perhaps couplings will be the key, but what if the performance in sub-par? Kissin/Spivakov?

Who cares?

I was also listening to Ashkenazy, who was a vast improvement on Lazarev, at least by playing the regular tempos. But I yearned for the 'Unison' that soandso was talking about, and I could only imagine that coming from Vienna or Berlin, and I don't know of a Berlin. Still, is Vienna too prettty for the piece?


Fact is, it is such a Masterpiece, so ubiquitous, that it has grown tiresome, but it is still on of the All-Time Great Autobiographical Scores. I agree that someone should just add or subtract strings at will to get a perfect mix (this piece can sound uniquely thick and turgid and engorged with its own knottiness- not a pleasant mix, a potential for awful). No one has yet recorded a version meant for the home listener. (how about Kantorow on Denon?- sonics should be out of this world?)

Anyhow, I grow tired of writing on it... zzZzzzz...
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 30, 2014, 03:07:49 AM
Jeffrey (I believe) and I have said it before:  I think that, on balance, the piece loses something in the translation to full string choir.  Sure, the Largo movements sing a bit throatier (which can be made a musical asset, though I am content to hear the whole piece as a quartet), but the Allegro molto (in particular) loses too much of its intrinsic agility.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: North Star on July 30, 2014, 04:15:17 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 30, 2014, 03:07:49 AM
Jeffrey (I believe) and I have said it before:  I think that, on balance, the piece loses something in the translation to full string choir.  Sure, the Largo movements sing a bit throatier (which can be made a musical asset, though I am content to hear the whole piece as a quartet), but the Allegro molto (in particular) loses too much of its intrinsic agility.
G'day, Karl!

Agreed, but then again, I tend to always prefer the smaller groups, in Verklärte Nacht, Metamorphosen, in Baroque & Classical era orchestral music, and one voice per part Bach & Renaissance polyphony. But here in particular the fast movement suffers too much in arrangements to larger forces.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 30, 2014, 04:21:12 AM
Oh, they don't perform Metamorphosen with more than one to a part, do they?  Considering how sumptuous R. Strauss's scores typically are, that's a sharp irony.

And I am with you, of course, in preferring Verklärte Nacht as a sextet.  Still, the Craft and Boulez recordings of the string orchestra version are a guilty-ish pleasure  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: North Star on July 30, 2014, 04:40:09 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 30, 2014, 04:21:12 AM
Oh, they don't perform Metamorphosen with more than one to a part, do they?  Considering how sumptuous R. Strauss's scores typically are, that's a sharp irony.

And I am with you, of course, in preferring Verklärte Nacht as a sextet.  Still, the Craft and Boulez recordings of the string orchestra version are a guilty-ish pleasure  :)
I meant the septet short score, discovered in 1990. (see the liner notes (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/notes/67574-B.pdf) to Nash Ensemble's recording (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=CDA67574)).

And I certainly share that guilty pleasure (though mine is the first Holliger recording) :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 30, 2014, 04:46:21 AM
Quote from: North Star on July 30, 2014, 04:40:09 AM
I meant the septet short score, discovered in 1990. (see the liner notes (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/notes/67574-B.pdf) to Nash Ensemble's recording (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=CDA67574)).

Oh!  Very nice (I just listened to the sample).
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on July 30, 2014, 11:33:58 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 30, 2014, 03:07:49 AM
Jeffrey (I believe) and I have said it before:  I think that, on balance, the piece loses something in the translation to full string choir.  Sure, the Largo movements sing a bit throatier (which can be made a musical asset, though I am content to hear the whole piece as a quartet), but the Allegro molto (in particular) loses too much of its intrinsic agility.

Quote from: North Star on July 30, 2014, 04:15:17 AM
G'day, Karl!

Agreed, but then again, I tend to always prefer the smaller groups, in Verklärte Nacht, Metamorphosen, in Baroque & Classical era orchestral music, and one voice per part Bach & Renaissance polyphony. But here in particular the fast movement suffers too much in arrangements to larger forces.

Yea, I was looking at the speakers during the
Quote from: North Star on July 30, 2014, 04:15:17 AM
G'day, Karl!

Agreed, but then again, I tend to always prefer the smaller groups, in Verklärte Nacht, Metamorphosen, in Baroque & Classical era orchestral music, and one voice per part Bach & Renaissance polyphony. But here in particular the fast movement suffers too much in arrangements to larger forces.
'

Yea, I was looking at the speakers during the 'Allegro molto' like, WTF? is thaaat? It just doesn't work unless the ensemble is a razor's knife edge- which is why I'd at least like to hear the Vienna SO-... mm?... eh? I mean,if the piece has gotten a better treatment somewhere, I'd at least like to hear it (I can't remember what the Barshai/DDG sounded like; I know the library has the Rachlevsky... which, btw, has the quickest timings of anyone (and comes with Rachlevsky's 'trreatment' of the SQ 15)).

Anyhow,... agreed. I have absolutely no desire to entertain the other four arrangements.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise (((SYMPHONY NO.1)))
Post by: snyprrr on July 30, 2014, 12:37:41 PM
Symphony No.1 Op.10

I got both Lennys for this one (I'd also like to get Ormandy) because "they" said he brought out the creepiness, made it sound more gothic, and, having totally forgotten the piece, convinced me that the earlier Lenny was the way to go. At first I didn't understand DSCH's fragmented opening, but, I sensed Shosty's "building blocks", and by the end of the first movement I felt the same way as after the 4th- Shosty's a straight up 'Modernist' (in the Honegger meaning).

I'm gonna lay this on you- you know exactly WHO I heard here? EARLY PETTERSSON! Can't you hear the Honegger influence here in the 1st? (which transfers to Pettersson) The fact is, this is music of the roaring '20s, and automobiles, and modern stuff baby! Very urbane, cosmopolitan, witty, jazzy- FRENCH!

I would have liked to have this with the PC1, but the Jansons is the only one I know of at the moment and he gets the worst marks for his 1st with Berlin. Either way, both pieces would work wonders together, imo. Why there'd by ANY criticism in the 1st's general direction is beyond me, unless they think DSCH is just too cosmopolitan? I say it's one of my favourite Shostys bar none-... meaning, schmeaning... LOVE IT!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: aukhawk on July 31, 2014, 12:23:39 AM
I hear Prokofiev.  However despite that (because I don't much like Prokofiev's orchestral stuff) the 1st is my favourite symphony, along with the 15th.   Caetani is terrific in the 1st, and Ormandy indispensible.  Others I've tried (Bernstein, Celidibache, Haitink, Gergiev, Sanderling) don't really add anything.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 31, 2014, 04:12:00 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on July 31, 2014, 12:23:39 AM
I hear Prokofiev.

I had not, but now that you say it, that opening muted trumpet gesture does feel like an overlap with Sergei Sergeyevich.  Well, better still, a common ground with (additionally) Stravinsky (especially Petrushka, which was an early and enduring influence for Dmitri Dmitriyevich).  I find the First a wonderful "cocktail":  It's young, bold, assured, wears its several influences well, and yet also belongs to the young composer himself.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 31, 2014, 04:12:55 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on July 31, 2014, 12:23:39 AM
(because I don't much like Prokofiev's orchestral stuff)

You don't like L'enfant prodigue?  I despair of you!  ;)   8)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise SHIPPING IS EXPENSIVE!!
Post by: snyprrr on July 31, 2014, 11:29:27 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on July 31, 2014, 12:23:39 AM
I hear Prokofiev.  However despite that (because I don't much like Prokofiev's orchestral stuff) the 1st is my favourite symphony, along with the 15th.   Caetani is terrific in the 1st, and Ormandy indispensible.  Others I've tried (Bernstein, Celidibache, Haitink, Gergiev, Sanderling) don't really add anything.

Quote from: karlhenning on July 31, 2014, 04:12:00 AM
I had not, but now that you say it, that opening muted trumpet gesture does feel like an overlap with Sergei Sergeyevich.  Well, better still, a common ground with (additionally) Stravinsky (especially Petrushka, which was an early and enduring influence for Dmitri Dmitriyevich).  I find the First a wonderful "cocktail":  It's young, bold, assured, wears its several influences well, and yet also belongs to the young composer himself.

Prokofiev... sure... he came first and was a 'Bad Boy', so, of course- AND, there's the 'French' part too. There is CERTAINLY something of the open air festival/fairgrounds that reminds of Mussorgsky/Petrouska that one can hear all throughout DSCH- along with what I call the 'Maritime Sound' (is it clarinet + flute?) that figures in Myaskovsky as well- 'The Sinking of a Great Battleship Melody'?

Anyhow, No.1- agreed,... it's one I'd more enjoying listening to on any given day.





I am now awaiting the last few 'research CDs' to arrive, having almost 5 versions of each of the important works with which to study and/or discard. I certainly have NOT kept up the rigorous listening schedule this has required, so, I definitely do not deserve to keep 'using' the ButItNow! button,... oy vey, haha.

Still, I've accumulated quite a bit of reject CDs,... double oy vey... that I'm sure I'll be offering to you soon enough on the ebay. ::) Hey... YOU might like them!! :laugh:

With the case of the 4th Symphony, all the recordings left that I'd like are at full price $$$ and would actually require a commitment, so I haaave to tread ever so lightly the closer to $20 any CD gets. That's the only reason I haven't taken up anyone's particular recommendations, that's all.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: bwv 1080 on July 31, 2014, 11:50:58 AM
The shipping is a lot cheaper for MP3s
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Ken B on July 31, 2014, 02:02:15 PM
Quote from: bwv 1080 on July 31, 2014, 11:50:58 AM
The shipping is a lot cheaper for MP3s
Not from Amazon Italy I bet.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Madiel on August 01, 2014, 02:15:56 AM
Quote from: bwv 1080 on July 31, 2014, 11:50:58 AM
The shipping is a lot cheaper for MP3s

And yet, you'd be surprised how much more all forms of download can cost when you're halfway around the world. Whether it's the higher iTunes price, or the most infamous example, which is that for one of Adobe's pieces of software it's cheaper to fly from Australia to LA and back to buy a physical copy than it is to download it here in Australia.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise TEMIRKNV VS JANSONS 13??
Post by: snyprrr on August 02, 2014, 03:29:35 PM
cAN anyone compare Temirkanov's and Jansons's 13ths? Aleksashkin is the soloist in both- Temirkanov's RCA recording is reputed to be a bit more recessed; EMI's recording sounds spectacular. Aleksashkin is accused of sounding "tired" from some quarters.

And not mention of Rostropovich's 13th. hmm...
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise HELP ME BEAT KARAJAN!!
Post by: snyprrr on August 04, 2014, 10:42:03 AM
Symphony No. 10 Op.93

Karajan '83 BPO


Shipway RPO

A.Davis LPO

Ashkenazy RPO

Litton/Virgin LPO


Is there a clarinettist alive who can match Karajan's? If one were to rely only on this, Karajan would probably go on for infinity, for I haven't found one who 'ghosts' into the first movement quite like the Berliner. And then in the zippy coda to the finale, this player sounds like no other; all others sound like mere mortals.

But, let's take some other considerations into play. Karajan's sound in the original CD is classic DG 'airless box' which is really artificial compared to these modern times we live in; however, once the ear adjusts, Karajan's performance steams along, only marred by the 'Volume Knob Syndrome' which requires superhuman attention and focus if one is to hear the quieter passages without 'Remote Dynamics Levelling'! ::)

So, how does the roster compare? Fairly easily, it turns out. Now, Karajan's levels aren't the hottest at the opening, and, frankly, his is a recording one needs to turn up some (and, I really wish we could get some input as to whether the 'Originals' re-issue has any Miracle Remastering, in which case all of my criticisms would be null and void). Litton has the lowest levels, sounding as if the mic was set up in the back of an empty auditorium. Ashkenazy, to my surprise, is almost weaker than Litton, and seems to actually be the hardest to hear in a normal scenario. Shipway's 'live' recording actually has some decent levels, and Andrew Davis is afforded the best of all, so that one really really hears every note from the opening on.

Comparisons of the innocuous opening of the third movement 'Allegretto' yielded no real interpretive insights, but only, again, highlighted the various dynamic levels of each recording, with Ashkenazy at the bottom with an annoyingly low volume level (comparatively; interpretively he's still got some clout). This is also where Karajan is somewhat difficult to hear; only Davis, again, made listening not-a-chore.

For now, let's just leave it with the 'Allegro'. Karajan's boxy sound is the highlight of his opening, though he certainly corners the market in incisiveness. Litton sounds like he's making a furious romp in the next building... down the street, and, shockingly, Ashkenazy's recording is not much (if any) better, really disappointing in its impact. I just couldn't believe anyone would record this music from such a distance, or with such levels- it needs to be in-your-face, and even Karajan doesn't really make me fear for my life here.

Shipway alleviates the misery by having a nice, biting attack from the outset, with decent 'live' levels- which makes one wonder even more about the reasoning behind the distance in the other two. And then, again, Davis is afforded what I would simply call "normal" levels. I mean, what's going on here that everyone wants to be 'nice' with DSCH10? Davis's sound gives one some sorely needed impact, as if there was percussion from the outset- I mean, even though Karajan has 'bite' here, his boxy sound doesn't really allow for any bloom (and, surely, the Berliners are too polite!??), so, only Davis is given the sound needed to project this music. I will say, though, that Davis takes the 'Allegro' juuust a little slower than everyone else, and this effect was noted as I went through each one- it's not a bad effect, just jarring when everyone else seems to be a few seconds of one another- still, it works just fine, and, given the impact of the sound, his comes off quite well as a "gruff" version, whereas many others seem a more "regimented" approach?

So, I will continue to compare here, but, Davis is out and ahead by quite a margin. I suggest you track down this 1974 recording- I think the reason it's not getting the press is because it's down at Page14 of the Amazon Discography! Mine was a bit cheaper from Amazon.uk, but it's still not the most available disc ever.- definitely worth the search!

Andrew Davis/London Philharmonic (EMI- Classics-for-Pleasure) 1974-5

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise PREVIN 73 vs HAITINK 8-
Post by: snyprrr on August 05, 2014, 10:07:36 AM
Previn 73 vs Haitink 8-

I was listening to Haitink's first movement, and, towards the noisy part, I wondered who might nail the emotion better... I mean, apparently Haitink IS a bit cool and has the rep to back it up! So, I go back to the Previn,... and... yes, oh, yes, that's what we were missing in the Haitink. Now I'm totally suspicious of the likes of Jansons here- I'd be more willing to try Jarvi here than anyone else at this point.

It's going to have to be at least as good as the Previn73, but with soundSoundSOUND! And Previn's sound is just fine as it is, so- I wonder- and I'm just not hearing anything about THE 8th (except, of course, mm,hm,mm) next to Previn (except mm,hm,mm)... I'd be happy to stick with him, but I like Haitink's sound... who?... what?...err...
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise -BARSHAI'S BEST??-
Post by: snyprrr on August 05, 2014, 10:10:09 AM
What is the very best of the Barshai Cycle?

His sound seems pretty good, but raw,- not audiophile by any stretch- 'live'-one certainly hasn't heard anything specific about any one particular piece standing out. Who knows?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise -HAITINK 6 & 11-
Post by: snyprrr on August 05, 2014, 10:17:07 AM
Been listening to the library's Haitink 6 & 11. These two seem to fit Haitink's detachment perfectly in CinemaScope. The 6th sounds like Sibelius to me (in general), and Haitink really shine in the nature poetry. And the sound is Decca's best.

Although I require my opening harp to resound in the 11th a la Stokowski (and only Stokowski), I gave Haitink some latitude, and- he surely gets loud later, - though I just wish conductors would just make the opening audible,... I mean, reeeally... other than that, once we get into the soundworld, Stokowski's sound fades into the past.

This set might be a FirstChoice for many. Any and all of Haitink's weaknesses are turned into strengths here. And, the Russian 'Overture' sounds a bit better here than in Jarvi's Goteborg DG- and it's solely due the the refined orchestra, the sumptuous engineering, and the space.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise PREVIN 73 vs HAITINK 8-
Post by: Brahmsian on August 05, 2014, 11:31:17 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on August 05, 2014, 10:07:36 AM
Previn 73 vs Haitink 8-

I was listening to Haitink's first movement, and, towards the noisy part, I wondered who might nail the emotion better... I mean, apparently Haitink IS a bit cool and has the rep to back it up! So, I go back to the Previn,... and... yes, oh, yes, that's what we were missing in the Haitink. Now I'm totally suspicious of the likes of Jansons here- I'd be more willing to try Jarvi here than anyone else at this point.

The only thing the Haitink 8 is missing....is nothing.  It's the bomb.  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise -BARSHAI'S BEST??-
Post by: Brahmsian on August 05, 2014, 11:33:27 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on August 05, 2014, 10:10:09 AM
What is the very best of the Barshai Cycle?

His sound seems pretty good, but raw,- not audiophile by any stretch- 'live'-one certainly hasn't heard anything specific about any one particular piece standing out. Who knows?

The 5th. Hands down.  Pretty good 6th too.  I like the #2, #3 and #12 as well, but I know these are not necessarily the symphonies people listen too, except for the die hards.  :D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise -BARSHAI'S BEST??-
Post by: Brahmsian on August 05, 2014, 11:37:09 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on August 05, 2014, 10:10:09 AM
What is the very best of the Barshai Cycle?

His sound seems pretty good, but raw,- not audiophile by any stretch- 'live'-one certainly hasn't heard anything specific about any one particular piece standing out. Who knows?

Oh, forgot that this has a very good 7th, IMO.   A good, properly paced (not too slow 2nd movement).  Great opening movement!  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 05, 2014, 04:45:05 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on August 05, 2014, 10:10:09 AM
What is the very best of the Barshai Cycle?

His sound seems pretty good, but raw,- not audiophile by any stretch-

Barshai? The sound is astonishingly vivid! Not raw. Audiophile and then some.

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise PREVIN 73 vs HAITINK 8-
Post by: snyprrr on August 05, 2014, 06:12:54 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on August 05, 2014, 11:31:17 AM
The only thing the Haitink 8 is missing....is nothing.  It's the bomb.  :)

You don't think he sounds just a tiny bit cool compared to Previn73? mmm?


Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 05, 2014, 04:45:05 PM
Barshai? The sound is astonishingly vivid! Not raw. Audiophile and then some.



I'm listening... tell me about the 13th... is the choir recorded well and not recessed at the back?


Quote from: ChamberNut on August 05, 2014, 11:33:27 AM
The 5th. Hands down.  Pretty good 6th too.  I like the #2, #3 and #12 as well, but I know these are not necessarily the symphonies people listen too, except for the die hards.  :D

yesyes but what of the 13th?? ??? Why didn't you mention it first? why? why? why? what's wrong with it? tell me nooooow!! :o I'm having a babiYar meltdown here... next post...
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise MAN13OF13CONSTANT13SORROW13
Post by: snyprrr on August 05, 2014, 06:25:17 PM
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

It just got Rostropovich's 13th. AAHH!! from the first note it's obvious the recording levels are where everyone else is- NOT as good as Haitink.

Masur

Solti

Rostropovich

Shallon (awful sound)

Kamu

Jarvi

NOT AS GOOD AS HAITINK!!

>:D >:D >:D
>:D >:D >:D
>:D >:D >:D
>:D >:D >:D

i'm exasperated... WHY? won't they record the opening at a decent volume? Why do they play Symphony 11 here and opening inaudibly? WHY WHY WHY???

I'm getting pissed. (btw- Rosty's chorus starts off real mild too- but then it gets loud- aaaahhhhh- when will I be loved???) :'( :'( :'(


THAT LEAVES BARSHAI or JANSONS... and maybe Caetani or Kofman... Temirkanov I hear is recorded from the back...


SO, WHICH IS IT???


I'VE HAD IT!!!


I THOUGHT REPLACING HAITINK WAS GOING TO BE AN EASY JOY!!!!


>:D >:D >:D
>:D >:D >:D
>:D >:D >:D

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


All you alls... who am I supposed to trust now? :'( :'( :'(


I fully expect to be blown away AND totally disappointed by the Jansons.

Barshai could be great, but no one has mentioned this, so I get suspicious.


WHY COULDN'T THIS BE EASY?? :'(





wHAT IS YOUR NAME AND WHAT IS YOUR QUEST? :laugh:
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: kishnevi on August 05, 2014, 06:50:54 PM
The only performance in the Barshai cycle I disliked was the 11th.   
But I tend to focus on what the performers are doing and far less on what the recording engineers are doing.  Which is why my current favorite set is the Kondrashin.

I can suggest one recording that will satisfy your quest for sonic perfection:  the new recording of Concierto de Aranjuez by Milos.   True, it is not music of Shostakovich but you have to settle for what you can get.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Ken B on August 05, 2014, 07:08:00 PM
The problem snyprrr is that you are fixated on replacing the recording. You should be replacing the symphony.

[asin]B00009L4W5[/asin]

>:D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 05, 2014, 07:39:19 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on August 05, 2014, 06:12:54 PM
I'm listening... tell me about the 13th... is the choir recorded well and not recessed at the back?

Choir positioned optimally. Soloist could be a smidgen more forward but nothing to fret about.


Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on August 06, 2014, 01:29:13 AM
Went to concert featuring Symphony 4 in London last night (Petrenko, European Youth Orchestra). Very fine performance and great to hear it live. Am not surprised, in view of the manic and doom-laden resonances, why Shostakovich withdrew the work in 1936!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise 11th
Post by: aukhawk on August 06, 2014, 02:11:44 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on August 05, 2014, 10:17:07 AM
Although I require my opening harp to resound in the 11th a la Stokowski (and only Stokowski), I gave Haitink some latitude, and- he surely gets loud later, - though I just wish conductors would just make the opening audible,... I mean, reeeally...

I share your pain - it's a real problem in all the 'modern' recordings of the 11th that I've heard, going back to De Priest/Helsinki, which is my favourite 11th - that must have been almost the last LP I bought, and even on vinyl the dynamic range was ridiculous.  The ratio of v.quiet music to v.loud music in this symphony is such that modern high-dynamic recordings are just impossible.  Thank goodness for remote controls.
Stokowski I heard on AM radio (and taped it) it must have been a repeat of his premiere perfomance, broadcast around 1960 - a thrilling listen - one way and another my tape must have had a dynamic range of about 5dB  8) I wish I still had that!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: amw on August 06, 2014, 02:20:07 AM
I have Haitink in the 11th. I just turn the volume way up and let the neighbors bear the full brunt of the 2nd and 4th movements. I mean, it's the 11th. A glorious, guiltfree piece of cheesy Soviet agitprop/film music turned gleefully on its head. Not exactly The Art of Fugue here. What else are you going to do with it?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on August 06, 2014, 04:38:07 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 06, 2014, 01:29:13 AM
Went to concert featuring Symphony 4 in London last night (Petrenko, European Youth Orchestra). Very fine performance and great to hear it live. Am not surprised, in view of the manic and doom-laden resonances, why Shostakovich withdrew the work in 1936!

Isn't that a yet greater piece live in the space?!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Madiel on August 06, 2014, 07:06:31 AM
Most audio equipment has this magical little thing called a 'volume control'. I find myself adjusting it quite frequently. Not least because I've done enough neuroscience to know that the ear constantly adjusts its perception of what the volume actually is.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on August 06, 2014, 08:27:30 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 06, 2014, 04:38:07 AM
Isn't that a yet greater piece live in the space?!

Also heard Berio's 'Sinfonia' - not so keen on that.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on August 06, 2014, 10:52:54 AM
Quote from: orfeo on August 06, 2014, 07:06:31 AM
Most audio equipment has this magical little thing called a 'volume control'. I find myself adjusting it quite frequently. Not least because I've done enough neuroscience to know that the ear constantly adjusts its perception of what the volume actually is.

Uhh... yea... but... my ear does it AUTOMATICALLY just like I would like my RECORDING to do- put the SET volume in the media so my poor ears can take a BREAK!! aye aye aye, stop acting like the scientist here, this is serious business!! :laugh:

I too find myself adjusting frequently, until I find this magical little thing called the "sweet spot"... tap tap tap...  ::)... and I set it and forget it. If I can't hear it from there, IT'S THE RECORDING'S FAULT!! Volume adjusting IS NOT the jub of the Pleasure Seeker, it is the job on the Engineer!!

so there! 0:)

Quote from: aukhawk on August 06, 2014, 02:11:44 AM
I share your pain - it's a real problem in all the 'modern' recordings of the 11th that I've heard, going back to De Priest/Helsinki, which is my favourite 11th - that must have been almost the last LP I bought, and even on vinyl the dynamic range was ridiculous.  The ratio of v.quiet music to v.loud music in this symphony is such that modern high-dynamic recordings are just impossible.  Thank goodness for remote controls.
Stokowski I heard on AM radio (and taped it) it must have been a repeat of his premiere perfomance, broadcast around 1960 - a thrilling listen - one way and another my tape must have had a dynamic range of about 5dB  8) I wish I still had that!

I think most 11 hunters have been through this exasperating dilemma,... we should start a Meeting! :laugh: But seriously, everyone who is enamoured of this process always likes to start off SYMPHONIES quietly. I call it WILLFULLNESS, pure and simple!!


Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 05, 2014, 07:39:19 PM
Choir positioned optimally. Soloist could be a smidgen more forward but nothing to fret about.




ok, I'm gonna pull it
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise HELP ME BEAT KARAJAN!!
Post by: snyprrr on August 06, 2014, 10:56:45 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on August 04, 2014, 10:42:03 AM
Symphony No. 10 Op.93

Karajan '83 BPO


Shipway RPO

A.Davis LPO

Ashkenazy RPO

Litton/Virgin LPO


Is there a clarinettist alive who can match Karajan's? If one were to rely only on this, Karajan would probably go on for infinity, for I haven't found one who 'ghosts' into the first movement quite like the Berliner. And then in the zippy coda to the finale, this player sounds like no other; all others sound like mere mortals.

But, let's take some other considerations into play. Karajan's sound in the original CD is classic DG 'airless box' which is really artificial compared to these modern times we live in; however, once the ear adjusts, Karajan's performance steams along, only marred by the 'Volume Knob Syndrome' which requires superhuman attention and focus if one is to hear the quieter passages without 'Remote Dynamics Levelling'! ::)

So, how does the roster compare? Fairly easily, it turns out. Now, Karajan's levels aren't the hottest at the opening, and, frankly, his is a recording one needs to turn up some (and, I really wish we could get some input as to whether the 'Originals' re-issue has any Miracle Remastering, in which case all of my criticisms would be null and void). Litton has the lowest levels, sounding as if the mic was set up in the back of an empty auditorium. Ashkenazy, to my surprise, is almost weaker than Litton, and seems to actually be the hardest to hear in a normal scenario. Shipway's 'live' recording actually has some decent levels, and Andrew Davis is afforded the best of all, so that one really really hears every note from the opening on.

Comparisons of the innocuous opening of the third movement 'Allegretto' yielded no real interpretive insights, but only, again, highlighted the various dynamic levels of each recording, with Ashkenazy at the bottom with an annoyingly low volume level (comparatively; interpretively he's still got some clout). This is also where Karajan is somewhat difficult to hear; only Davis, again, made listening not-a-chore.

For now, let's just leave it with the 'Allegro'. Karajan's boxy sound is the highlight of his opening, though he certainly corners the market in incisiveness. Litton sounds like he's making a furious romp in the next building... down the street, and, shockingly, Ashkenazy's recording is not much (if any) better, really disappointing in its impact. I just couldn't believe anyone would record this music from such a distance, or with such levels- it needs to be in-your-face, and even Karajan doesn't really make me fear for my life here.

Shipway alleviates the misery by having a nice, biting attack from the outset, with decent 'live' levels- which makes one wonder even more about the reasoning behind the distance in the other two. And then, again, Davis is afforded what I would simply call "normal" levels. I mean, what's going on here that everyone wants to be 'nice' with DSCH10? Davis's sound gives one some sorely needed impact, as if there was percussion from the outset- I mean, even though Karajan has 'bite' here, his boxy sound doesn't really allow for any bloom (and, surely, the Berliners are too polite!??), so, only Davis is given the sound needed to project this music. I will say, though, that Davis takes the 'Allegro' juuust a little slower than everyone else, and this effect was noted as I went through each one- it's not a bad effect, just jarring when everyone else seems to be a few seconds of one another- still, it works just fine, and, given the impact of the sound, his comes off quite well as a "gruff" version, whereas many others seem a more "regimented" approach?

So, I will continue to compare here, but, Davis is out and ahead by quite a margin. I suggest you track down this 1974 recording- I think the reason it's not getting the press is because it's down at Page14 of the Amazon Discography! Mine was a bit cheaper from Amazon.uk, but it's still not the most available disc ever.- definitely worth the search!

Andrew Davis/London Philharmonic (EMI- Classics-for-Pleasure) 1974-5

I listened to Ashkenazy more thoroughly, and WOW!, this is one of 'those' recordings, and yes, it kicks some serious ass in the climaxes. Surely this Ashkenazy 10th is the most scintillating recording, though, yes, it does get quiet and loud and back and forth. If your in a peaceful environment, set yer volume accordingly- but the climaxes, huge as they are, aren't of the speaker busting variety- it's a great engineering feat from Decca!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on August 06, 2014, 11:20:20 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 26, 2014, 11:22:35 AM
Symphony No.13




Kondrashin MPO (various;1963?)"girl hiding face"cover?
Ormandy (-)
Muti (Memories;1970)





Rozhdesventsky (various;1985)'speaking'
                                                                                                                                                                                        Kamu (Chandos;1987)

                                                                                                   Previn (EMI-AAD;1980)
Haitink (Decca;1984)             

                                                                                                                                                                                     Rostropovitch (Teldec;1989)   
                                                                                                                                                                                   Masur (Teldec;1994) Lieferkus
                                                                                                                                                                                       Solti (Decca) Aleksashkin
Inbal (Denon)                                                                      M.Shostakovitch (Supraphon;1995)
                                                                                                                                                                                       Jarvi (DG;1996) Lieferkus
                                                                                                                                                                                       Polyansky (Chandos;1999)

                                                                                                                                                                                       Shallon (Koch;1994)               
                                                                                                 Slovak (Naxos;1994)
                                                                                              Sondeckis (SONY;1996)


Sinaisky (BBCProms-'live';2000) Lieferkus

Jansons (EMI;2006) Aleksashkin
Temirkanov (RCA;2007) Aleksashkin
Barshai (Brilliant;2008) Aleksashkin
Fedosseyev (Relief-'live';2006) Aleksashkin 'live'

                                                                                           Caetani (Arts;2007)SACD
                                                                                           Kofman (MDG;2005)SACD

                                                                                                                                                                               Schwarz (Avie;2003)
                                                                                              Wigglesworth (BIS;2006)
                                                                                                                                                                         Ashkenazy (Decca;2007)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Madiel on August 06, 2014, 04:25:30 PM
LOL. The idea that there is one 'sweet spot' on your audio equipment that is going to be right for all recordings is just fanciful. For starters I automatically change mine every time I switch from pop to classical or vice versa.

You can't expect an engineer on one recording to know what recording level has been used for every other disc in your collection, especially not when they might have been made several decades apart.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise THIS MEANS WAAAR!!!haha
Post by: snyprrr on August 07, 2014, 07:49:13 AM
Quote from: orfeo on August 06, 2014, 04:25:30 PM
LOL. The idea that there is one 'sweet spot' on your audio equipment that is going to be right for all recordings is just fanciful. For starters I automatically change mine every time I switch from pop to classical or vice versa.

You can't expect an engineer on one recording to know what recording level has been used for every other disc in your collection, especially not when they might have been made several decades apart.

No, I meant set it for each media once- of course you have to change volume between records. Each record has its OWN sweet spot that one should be able to set and forget... "should". (or, any recording engineered by a loving engineer- I don't expect the non-committal to make good recordings)

I mean, are you a FAN of having to change volume in the middle of a piece?? All these recordings of the 11th where you can't barely hear the awesome opening? I mean, aren't they as artificial as an engineer riding the fader? Just put me in the 3rd row- set it and forget it. I don't want to be the percussionist, and I don't want to be the usher at the back of the hall (or the ticket agent out front).

"I want what I want and I want it now."
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: kishnevi on August 07, 2014, 08:00:43 PM
But suppose the conductor intended for you to barely hear the opening?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on August 08, 2014, 07:36:35 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 07, 2014, 08:00:43 PM
But suppose the conductor intended for you to barely hear the opening?

then he's being WILLFUL

Quote from: orfeo on August 06, 2014, 04:25:30 PM
LOL. The idea that there is one 'sweet spot' on your audio equipment that is going to be right for all recordings is just fanciful. For starters I automatically change mine every time I switch from pop to classical or vice versa.

You can't expect an engineer on one recording to know what recording level has been used for every other disc in your collection, especially not when they might have been made several decades apart.

We're mis-communicating(wtf spellcheck??)

"What Every Good Engineer Knows"

SURELY Engineers are the type who DO know what other Engineers are doing. I mean, just look at the DDD boom- and yes, EACH COMPANY HAD THEIR OWN ENGINEERING STYLE (Chandos, for example,... BIS),


gaaaaah >:D


Of course you have to turn up a BIS record, whereas you might have to turn down a Mercury Living Presence. And, yes, if you play one after the other you're going to have to fiddle. Obviously I'm not making a UnicornLand Fantasy Statement... anyhow...

WHAT I'VE NOTICED is that a well recorded recording has a sweet spot, and, different styles of great recordings TEND to have a sweet spot around the same place... it's Science... I don't know why there's an argument?

This one 'live' record here has NO sweet spot, it's so badly recorded. Some records I turn up to 11 and still it sounds like it's in the other room.



Haven't you noticed how on some Audiophile recordings the DEMAND that you go to the quietest part, set the volume, then go to the loudest part, adjust the volume, check a third spot, final adjustments,... and THEN the LET you enjoy the music.

Whereas some other Engineer took care of all that FOR YOU (thank you genius Engineer guy!) and produced a 'set it and forget it' recording ....


I grow weary of this interminably fascinating subject...


Some recordings I have to turn up,... and they "bloom"... others I turn up, and they still suck.





Lately, (out of a 1-10 scale) I've been setting volume for Classical at 5.0-5.2... Pop music gets set at 3.8-4.2... crappy Classical recordings I can turn up all the way and they sound no different than they did at 5.0.





(40 minutes here I will never get back- oh, how you goad me!!) :laugh:
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise FEDOSSEYEV-ALEKSASHKIN
Post by: snyprrr on August 08, 2014, 07:40:50 AM
Did you know that Aleksashkin actually has FIVE 13ths? The Fedosseyev is 'live'- but, well, what are the probabilities that it can be either good or bad as a recording?

Symphony 13

I pulled Barshai and Jansons. If one of them works, we end the quest; if not, it's on to Inbal and Caetani. (Inbal's bass sounded quite impressive I thought)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise BARSHAI CYCLE
Post by: snyprrr on August 08, 2014, 07:42:54 AM
Silly me, I didn't see that the Barshai listing had musical samples. Wow! that's some pretty nice and raw and live sound there! And the 13th promises...
Title: Re: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles &amp; Otherwise FEDOSSEYEV-ALEKSASHKIN
Post by: Karl Henning on August 08, 2014, 07:50:26 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on August 08, 2014, 07:40:50 AM
Did you know that Aleksashkin actually has FIVE 13ths?

I did not, but that's terrific: when you learn a big piece like that, it's great to get some mileage out of it.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Madiel on August 08, 2014, 08:00:41 AM
My last post was so provocative it generated 2 replies.  :o
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on August 08, 2014, 08:52:05 AM
Quote from: orfeo on August 08, 2014, 08:00:41 AM
My last post was so provocative it generated 2 replies.  :o

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

"May the 4s beat with hew!"
Title: Re: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles &amp; Otherwise FEDOSSEYEV-ALEKSASHKIN
Post by: snyprrr on August 08, 2014, 08:56:28 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 08, 2014, 07:50:26 AM
That's great. I'll buy a copy right now so you don't have to. We really appreciate you just buying cds you don't want just to inform us of opportunities- thanks for all you do around here. You know, I'd like to send you a copy of that Fedosseyev, what's your address?

there. fixed it for ya!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on August 08, 2014, 08:58:02 AM
That's how the Karl doesn't really write the posts attributed to him rumors get started, you know . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on August 08, 2014, 09:19:31 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 08, 2014, 08:58:02 AM
That's how the Karl doesn't really write the posts attributed to him rumors get started, you know . . . .

:laugh:


Karl, will you make me a cup of cocoa and tell me a story? ;)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on August 08, 2014, 09:30:42 AM
Well, Ormandy and Phila are very good in the Op.93. But it's not The Recording I should recommend, if asked.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on August 08, 2014, 09:54:04 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 08, 2014, 09:30:42 AM
Well, Ormandy and Phila are very good in the Op.93. But it's not The Recording I should recommend, if asked.

I missed Ormandy's 10th?... oh, right, on that double with 4. Well, I really have to give Ashkenazy's engineers some credit- if there's one criticism of Karajan, it's the boxy sound: Ashkenazy's climaxes, in this recording at least, are stupendous, with bass mids and highs (scintillating cymbals) in perfect balance. I might give Ashkenazy the Rosette if he had Karajan's clarinettist! (no one does, do they? :-* :-* :-*- a dream!)

On further listening, I'd call A.Davis's 1975 LPO 'soul food', 'charming', 'nice' (in the good way), 'delineated'... given the vintage, one might guess Previn?... but it almost has a... British? feeling? EMI? I dunno... either way, I give Much Extra Credit for a very detailed, polished, and modern sounding recording, a very model EMI 1975 recording, I'd say.

Frank Shipway's BBC/RPO is very raw and powerful, expressive- it might be as good as SantaFe says- it certainly doesn't seem to give anything away. Litton's first LPO/Virgin, though very well played (on a par pretty much with the other Brits), has a recessed recording that doesn't seem to get that much louder when you turn it up (see other argument thread, haha!).

I haven't heard Solti, but some have criticized the last two movements for whatever reason. Jarvi is one that no one has said a bad word about and only very great things. I definitely want a BigNameOrchestra for the 10th, and it seems that there are numerous LPO and RPO renditions- it's almost their piece.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise SYMPHONY 11
Post by: snyprrr on August 08, 2014, 10:04:28 AM
sYMPHONY 11

I took Haitink to work this morning, and, sampling the last three movements, realized that I really didn't care for it. My whole love of the work comes from the first ten seconds- lol- and... what else? I like the trumpet and brass work, butthe stereotypical 19th century 'character rhythms' screamed 'War Movie' or some such nostalgia. The third, slow, movement, especially, seemed like Hollywood Russian Music (echoes of Stokowski?). I mean, it was not music WORTHY of my ride to work (it's bare bones Masterpiece before the sun comes up!) I was disappointed. But,... it's Dupe Music... Shosty's Idealism... whatever's under the surface here didn't make any impact on me through the sheer superficiality of the melodies (everyone says "banal"- like the 'evil' analogy). Yea, I know I know- I just don't care for them- they remind me of that Sting song 'Russians'. eeck!

I'll certainly keep Stokowski around. And if I were to tempt another, Haitink (with the 6th) might be the best (it suits Haitink). But- if I had to slog through the 12th (only made it to the six minute mark so far) I

what?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on August 08, 2014, 10:15:40 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on August 08, 2014, 09:54:04 AM
- if there's one criticism of Karajan, it's the boxy sound

Thank you, yes.  There's a huge horn unison which is marked fortissimo in the score, and they sound maybe mezzo-forte-ish on the HvK recording.  Sissies, dammit!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jochanaan on August 08, 2014, 10:36:02 AM
Opus 93 has been mentioned.  I'm rather fond of the Paavo Berglund/Bournemouth Symphony recording from the 1970s; good playing and an interpretation that actually stays close to the score. :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Brahmsian on August 08, 2014, 10:37:04 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 08, 2014, 09:30:42 AM
Well, Ormandy and Phila are very good in the Op.93. But it's not The Recording I should recommend, if asked.

They do a great Symphony No. 4 too.  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on August 08, 2014, 05:43:09 PM
Quote from: jochanaan on August 08, 2014, 10:36:02 AM
Opus 93 has been mentioned.  I'm rather fond of the Paavo Berglund/Bournemouth Symphony recording from the 1970s; good playing and an interpretation that actually stays close to the score. :)

Ah, my trolling bears fruit! So, tell me, how's the sound/dynamic levels? It might be nice to compare with Davis '75. And how does that clarinettist compare with Karajan's? oh goody... ;D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on August 08, 2014, 05:51:23 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 08, 2014, 10:15:40 AM
Thank you, yes.  There's a huge horn unison which is marked fortissimo in the score, and they sound maybe mezzo-forte-ish on the HvK recording.  Sissies, dammit!

Do you know if the 'Originals' reissue has solved any of the sonic problems, or is it something that can't be fixed by remastering?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on August 09, 2014, 05:27:44 AM
That's more than I can answer to.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jochanaan on August 09, 2014, 03:59:55 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on August 08, 2014, 05:43:09 PM
Ah, my trolling bears fruit! So, tell me, how's the sound/dynamic levels? It might be nice to compare with Davis '75. And how does that clarinettist compare with Karajan's? oh goody... ;D
It's decent late-analogue, which means the dynamics shouldn't be too wild for your sensitive ears. ;) I doubt the clarinetist is quite up to the Berliners' standard, but he or she plays the theme well enough.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on August 10, 2014, 12:43:15 PM
Quote from: jochanaan on August 09, 2014, 03:59:55 PM
It's decent late-analogue, which means the dynamics shouldn't be too wild for your sensitive ears. ;) I doubt the clarinetist is quite up to the Berliners' standard, but he or she plays the theme well enough.

"Late Analogue"

I liiike it!! 8) My new favourite word! ;)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jochanaan on August 11, 2014, 09:53:43 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on August 10, 2014, 12:43:15 PM
"Late Analogue"

I liiike it!! 8) My new favourite word! ;)
As opposed to early digital. :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on August 11, 2014, 01:10:53 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 02, 2014, 09:07:05 AM
Symphony No.4



The 'Spectacular Ones'

Salonen/DG
Chung/DG
Jansons/EMI
Rattle/EMI
Gergiev/Philips
Rostropovich/Teldec

Haitink 'live' CSO

Haitink/London
Ashkenazy/Decca
Ashenazy II/Decca (w/Japanese orch.)

Jarvi/Chandos


Other Current Top Choices

Rozhd./RussianDisc (1980s)
M.Shostakovich/Supraphon
Barshai/Regis-Brilliant
Slovak/Naxos


Two Odd Ducks

Herbig/Berlin
Kegel/Weitblick


The Rest of the Modern, High Profile Recordings

"more info"

Petrenko/Naxos
Caetani/Arts
Kofman/MDG
Boreyko/Hanssler
Bychkov/Avie
Raiskin/Cavi-Music
Inbal/Denon

"less info"

Polyansky/VistaVera
Wigglesworth/BIS
Judd/NuevaEra
Simonov/Cypres
Venzago/MusiquesSuisse


The Three Americans

Ormandy/SONY
Slatkin/RCA
Previn/EMI


The Originals

Rozhd./Alliance (1962)
Kondrashin/Profil (1960s)
Kondrtashin/Melodya-BMG
---/Regis-TransitionsLive???
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise 13 13 13 13 13 13 13 13 13
Post by: snyprrr on August 21, 2014, 11:09:58 AM
Jansons and Barshai have arrived, and I await this evening's DeathMatch:

Haitink

Masur

Solti

Rostropovich

(Kamu)

(Shallon)


Only Inbal is missing... for now... I anticipate bloodshed...
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on August 21, 2014, 11:23:18 AM
Good luck!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise -GOOD NEWS!!-
Post by: snyprrr on August 21, 2014, 06:52:26 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 21, 2014, 11:23:18 AM
Good luck!

Good news!

Based on the above List, what do you think the outcome was? Well, today I was actually pleasantly surprised for a change! As you know, I was trying to displace Haitink from my cockles, when All-Comers Simply Failed to make much if any impression. Though I'd still like to add Inbal into the line-up (for Denon's sake), I think we can safely conclude a few matters.

MIND YOU- I've only sampled the opening of the first movement up until the singer has settled in, and also the opening of the second movement- I mean, yes, I'm being somewhat superficial- but at least my sampling rate is higher than Amazon's! ;) We're using Haitink as the Absolute Baseline Standard here. My Volume setting is 5 out of 10. I'm going to break it down this way:


OPENING

We all know Haitink's opening bell- because we can hear it! One of the saddest realities here is that 90% of the competition opens the Symphony sotto voce, o-bli-ter-a-ting the opening bell. The same also have woefully light bass strings, and only the brass is prominent, making for an all around horrendous impression.

Rostropovich is the worst: his decibal level throughout is as if you're getting popcorn. I have to turn the Volume up to 10 (11!) to make it sound like Haitink. I mean, sure, if you want me to do that, it begins to bloom- but, I'm not going to Git 'Er Done that way. Rostropovich, or the engineers, are infuriating here. Is there a chorus? Good singer.

Masur and Solti have very similar sound profiles. I hear no bell (at 5) with Masur; I can't quite tell if I do with Solti. Both infuriated me here. Both of their respective string sections are... where? But, as soon as the brass come, you here them, pointing up how low the strings and percussion are. However, and unlike 'povich, both get progressively louder until after the chorus intro, so their transgressions aren't as aggregious(sp) as 'povich's. But, the low wattage recording infuriate, especially since people rave about them (especially Masur/Teldec). No bell, no soup for you!

Haitink sounds like The Standard he is- Don't Ever Again Deny Haitink is This Opening! The chorus is Just.So.with.the.Strings. Chilling Decca sound.

SO- NOW- drum roll please...



You know I had trepidation concerning Jansons, but Grady Harp assured me that it was now the best on the market. (Pushes 'Play') THAAANK YOU!! YES!! :-* :-* :-* All I ever asked for was to hear the bell. Thank you Mariss Jansons for Not Disappointing Me. Tusan Takk!! Honestly, Haitink is just a tiny little touch fresher in my opinion (hear the brass), but Jansons is rich and lush and deep dark Red toned in that EMI way. And you can hear everything, and the strings- FINALLY- are impressive!! THANK YOU!! And the entrance of the chorus- though maybe not exactly like Haitink- is Good Enough Thank You Very Much Indeed (after sooo much Disappointment).

Maybe the only think I din't like as much was Aleksashkin, but, I'm just glad to hear the bell right now. let me wallow! (looking back over sentence- one for Cato's Gramm... uh -er -ar??)

What of Barshai? you ask.

That's right, I forgot,... there you are. OK,... here goes...

What?

             Wait...

                                      HELLO!! :o

WOW!! Barshai has actual Best In Show Opening Bell with Strings and Brass Intro- I"M ACTUALLY IN SHOCK!!- the decibel level pummels Haitink (ouch- sorry Bernie!),- I'm just in shock- it's such a nice, raw recording- all the instruments are rich, ripe, and fruity. Oh, the Glorious Bell! Barshai Understands! Chorus comes in just fine. Aleksashkin, though now my Least Favoured Singer (sorry guys, the man's vibrato is like a Fukushima geiger counter!), cannot dim my enjoyment of Good Accompanyment(sp).

I'm just so glad that these two have at least started a Conversation. (I might like to try Inbal, Temirkanov (though I can't see the sonics bettering Jansons or Barshai or Haitink), and maybe Caetani (Italian band might be interesting here))




First 30 Seconds of Second Movement:

Barshai = ffff

Haitink = fff
Shallon = ff-fff

Jansons = ff

Solti = f
Masur = f

Rostropovich = p (utterly unbelievable)


Shallon actually did better overall than my initial disappointment led on. You can actually hear the bell, and the 'live' sound is ok but you'd have to turn it up. Kamu also does well sonically; I didn't like his chorus entry- I also had a skipping issue which precluded further participation.


Frankly, I'm shocked at how good the Haitink is, considering I've complained about it for so long! Jansons is a worthy companion. Both have very different sound profiles which compare very nicely.

Perhaps by accident, Barshai is in a league of his own- FINALLY I can at least BREATHE!! (YES- I HAVE been holding my breath for months now!!) nap time


Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jochanaan on August 22, 2014, 08:36:04 AM
snyprrr, I think you've been listening to too much death metal or punk or something.  Some of us like the dynamic subtleties in recordings like Masur's.  (I'm not familiar with the others, so can't say about them.)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise -CAETANI 13 SNEEZE?-
Post by: snyprrr on August 22, 2014, 02:19:49 PM
Quote from: jochanaan on August 22, 2014, 08:36:04 AM
snyprrr, I think you've been listening to too much death metal or punk or something.  Some of us like the dynamic subtleties in recordings like Masur's.  (I'm not familiar with the others, so can't say about them.)

What's your system set to?

So, you hear the bell in the opening? The deep rich bass strings? ::) I mean, if you've heard no other, I understand- but if you then hear Haitink,... wait... waht?

I'll give you all, that, for the most part, once the singer starts and gets going, the criteria seem to even out amongst much of the competition.

Well, anyway, I had searingly high hopes for the Masur at the time, but... and i'm saying per your Quote, that, Subtilties(?) ARE being lost (and no, I haven't been listening to metal- let me tell you, that as an acolyte of Pete Townsend, I have come a long way from the days when I would willingly SUBJECT myself to the notion of LOUD IS ART- so there... I like to be quiet... so... hmmm....

I know Jens also recommended Masur. Seriously? Don't you have to 'Craaank It Up' to hear the opening, at which point you're going to have to turn it down later? And Solti's the same way, and Rostropovich sounds like he lost his earpiece (I mean, ANYONE? have the Rostropovich Cycle and could comment on the dismal dismal sonic profile of his 13?).

So just in case, listen to Masur again, and I tell you straight up, that opening bell you're faintly hearing, and those bass strings?... on Haitink, Jansons, and Barshai they have so much more subtil dynamic shading and fruity brass frequencies that- at least with Barshai- it's like night and day.



anyhow-

listen to the sample of the 2nd mvmt of Caetani's 13th, on Amazon. Are those two in-your-face sneezes or is that a digital glitch or waht?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise -PERSONAL INVENTORY UPDATE-
Post by: snyprrr on August 22, 2014, 03:11:40 PM
No.1................................ Bernstein/SONY, Bernstein/DDG, (Rostropovich)                                                                                                              (Orandy)


No.2
No.3


No.4................................. Jarvi, Slovak, Rostropovich, M.Shostakovich (en route)


No.5................................. Rostropovich/DDG, Ashkenazy/Decca, Mackerras/RPO, Bernstein 1959, Bernstein 1979, Inbal/Frankfurt


No.6................................. Bernstein/SONY, (Haitink)


No.7................................. Bernstein/DDG

No.8................................. Previn/EMI 1973    (frankly, I got Haitink- and felt somewhat underpowered- need help here- Jansons?... or just love Previn? Mrav?)


No.9................................ Ashkenazy (by default, but excellent), Solti 'Carnegie Project' (excellent), (Rostropovich)


No.10............................... Karajan1982 (from forever), Ashkenazy, Shipway, Davis/EMI         (Litton/Virgin somewhat uncompetitive- London orchs. own 10!)


No.11............................... Stokowski (from forever), (Haitink)

No.12


No.13................................ Haitink/Decca, Jansons, Barshai/WDR,                                         Masur, Solti,         Rostropovich, Shallon,   Kamu


No.14................................ Rostropovich1973, Inbal, Slovak,                                                                         Jarvi,      Lazarev


No.15................................. Ashkenazy, Sanderling/Cleveland, Rostropovich   Jarvi (mm...)     Jansons (mm...)         Solti (mm.... ok)         Dutoit? Dresden?...
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise -CAETANI 13 SNEEZE?-
Post by: jochanaan on August 22, 2014, 03:45:58 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on August 22, 2014, 02:19:49 PM
What's your system set to?

So, you hear the bell in the opening? The deep rich bass strings? ::) I mean, if you've heard no other, I understand- but if you then hear Haitink,... wait... waht?

I'll give you all, that, for the most part, once the singer starts and gets going, the criteria seem to even out amongst much of the competition.

Well, anyway, I had searingly high hopes for the Masur at the time, but... and i'm saying per your Quote, that, Subtilties(?) ARE being lost (and no, I haven't been listening to metal- let me tell you, that as an acolyte of Pete Townsend, I have come a long way from the days when I would willingly SUBJECT myself to the notion of LOUD IS ART- so there... I like to be quiet... so... hmmm....

I know Jens also recommended Masur. Seriously? Don't you have to 'Craaank It Up' to hear the opening, at which point you're going to have to turn it down later? And Solti's the same way, and Rostropovich sounds like he lost his earpiece (I mean, ANYONE? have the Rostropovich Cycle and could comment on the dismal dismal sonic profile of his 13?).

So just in case, listen to Masur again, and I tell you straight up, that opening bell you're faintly hearing, and those bass strings?... on Haitink, Jansons, and Barshai they have so much more subtil dynamic shading and fruity brass frequencies that- at least with Barshai- it's like night and day.
Well, Masur could use a little more subtlety as a leader; but I was primarily reacting to what I read as a complaint that the soft passages are too soft--a complaint I've heard from you about other recordings.   Right now my personal and living situation precludes fancy stereo equipment, but when I had a good system I usually liked to listen at about 2 on a dial that goes to 10; that's plenty for the loud sections yet I can still easily hear soft sections--unless there's a lot of background noise.  For example, I never listen to intensely dynamic recordings when I'm driving or riding the bus!  You completely lose the soft sections.  Yet I tend to like the kind of intense dynamics one finds in Solti and Karajan recordings and some others, especially modern digital recordings--as long as I have a quiet place to listen. 8) And as a performing musician, I know just how hard it is to produce those extreme dynamics, so there's the excitement factor for me.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on August 22, 2014, 04:05:06 PM
Jansons is excellent in the Eighth.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise -MUST HAVE MRAVINSKY?-
Post by: snyprrr on August 22, 2014, 09:53:26 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 22, 2014, 04:05:06 PM
Jansons is excellent in the Eighth.

Waht is the single Must Have Mravinsky? I would guess the 12th! ;) But, besides, which one of the Mighty Ones- 5, 8, 10? Is it the Audiophile 5th? (which isn't quite clear which one it is?) What's the Single Best Mravinsky? (does that really mean "the one with the least amount of coughing?)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise -MAXIM 4TH, SUPRAPHON-
Post by: snyprrr on August 26, 2014, 06:13:23 AM
THIS MAXIM 4th on Supraphon is pretty good! It's true, he does bring out the hallucinatory aspects of the 'Moderato con moto'. Nice, pungent sound- oh, and some absolutely great wind playing, especially the all-important piccolo.

I'm not all the way through yet, but do take a look-see, it's got a lot of things going for it. Maybe not brutal power, but you do hear the bass drums come down with attitude.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on August 26, 2014, 06:51:55 AM
Told you it was good.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise --- PETRENKO 13---
Post by: snyprrr on October 16, 2014, 07:00:01 AM
I thought everyone was waiting for Petrenko's 13th? It's here- how come no word on GMG?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on October 16, 2014, 07:01:07 AM
Have you heard it?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise --- PETRENKO 13---
Post by: Brahmsian on October 16, 2014, 08:11:45 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on October 16, 2014, 07:00:01 AM
I thought everyone was waiting for Petrenko's 13th? It's here- how come no word on GMG?

Order is on its way.  :)

Patience.....grasshoppah!  ;D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise --- PETRENKO 13---
Post by: kishnevi on October 16, 2014, 11:13:00 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on October 16, 2014, 08:11:45 AM
Order is on its way.  :)

Patience.....grasshoppah!  ;D
Mine too.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise THIS MEANS WAAAR!!!haha
Post by: Herman on October 16, 2014, 12:10:41 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on August 07, 2014, 07:49:13 AM
No, I meant set it for each media once- of course you have to change volume between records. Each record has its OWN sweet spot that one should be able to set and forget... "should". (or, any recording engineered by a loving engineer- I don't expect the non-committal to make good recordings)

I mean, are you a FAN of having to change volume in the middle of a piece?? All these recordings of the 11th where you can't barely hear the awesome opening? I mean, aren't they as artificial as an engineer riding the fader? Just put me in the 3rd row- set it and forget it. I don't want to be the percussionist, and I don't want to be the usher at the back of the hall (or the ticket agent out front).

"I want what I want and I want it now."

As I know the term "sweet spot" refers to the place where you sit, as a listener, to get the best effect from you hifi equipement.

I don't ever listen to music such as DSCH  -  with its changes between a whisper and giant tutti  -  without turning up and down the volume when needed. It's nobody's fault, except the composer's, who created his music for the concert hall primarily.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: aukhawk on October 16, 2014, 02:11:57 PM
Then it is the fault of the mastering engineer, whose job it is to translate from one medium (live experiece) to another (home listening).  Though (s)he is probably only acting on instructions.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on October 17, 2014, 03:18:02 AM
That sort of translation is of necessity a cascade of compromises.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Jo498 on October 17, 2014, 03:48:12 AM
There is a certain kind of "audiophile" listener who wants to have a huge dynamic spectrum on recordings, despite the obvious drawbacks on social life.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on October 17, 2014, 06:28:46 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 17, 2014, 03:48:12 AM
There is a certain kind of "audiophile" listener who wants to have a huge dynamic spectrum on recordings, despite the obvious drawbacks on social life.

you mean like "Forever Alone"? :laugh:
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: NorthNYMark on October 17, 2014, 12:23:22 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 17, 2014, 03:48:12 AM
There is a certain kind of "audiophile" listener who wants to have a huge dynamic spectrum on recordings, despite the obvious drawbacks on social life.

This is probably true, but some people seem to misunderstand the audiophile critique of recent "brickwalling" mastering trends (mainly in pop/rock music, but reportedly creeping into classical as well) as being motivated by what you describe.  Generally, even pop and rock recordings tended to have dynamic ranges of between 10 and 14 db, and that has been reduced over the past twenty years or so to averages closer to 7 or so via digital limiting software.  This is usually done to raise the average recording level to what had previously been reserved for the loudest peaks (and therefore make the overall recording louder); the problem is that this distorts aspects of the sound and produces a more fatiguing listening experience.  Those who oppose dynamic range limiting are not necessarily hoping for the huge, macrodynamic crescendo effects of classical music (though a minority probably values this), but just want a "normal" dynamic range such that a cymbal crash, for instance, actually sounds like a cymbal crash rather than white noise.  Some people actually get headaches from listening to overly dynamically compressed music (since your ears so rarely get the momentary breaks that a normally fluctuating dynamic tends to produce).

Classical dynamics are different--I sometimes wonder why classical performers produce such nearly inaudible ppp sections (often for extended periods) that if you turn up the volume just enough to barely hear what they are playing, you risk damaging your hearing when the tuttis come in.  But I would rather that be adjusted at the level of the performance than by a mastering engineer messing with the dynamic range after the fact.  Or, more practically, by the recording (not mastering) engineer using analog compressors, which produce a much more pleasant sound than that produced by digital limiting.

OK, "audiophile" rant over.  ;)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise --- PETRENKO 13---
Post by: kishnevi on October 17, 2014, 06:40:48 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on October 16, 2014, 07:00:01 AM
I thought everyone was waiting for Petrenko's 13th? It's here- how come no word on GMG?

Playing it now.  Very very good.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Jo498 on October 17, 2014, 11:00:47 PM
As I do not listen to Pop/Rock I have no experience with the "loudness wars".

But I could never understand complaints of audiophile classical listeners against older, "less dynamic" recordings, because I share the impression that some (admittedly very good) newer recordings have impractically wide dynamics and I cannot remember a single occasion when I disliked a (historical) recording because the differences in dynamics were not wide enough (I might have forgotten, there are bad recordings, but most of the time they are bad for other reasons.)

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise --- PETRENKO 13---
Post by: snyprrr on October 18, 2014, 07:50:31 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 17, 2014, 06:40:48 PM
Playing it now.  Very very good.

How is that opening? Is the very first note very low, or normal? How close is the choir? errr... how are the dynamic levels???haha


Quote from: Jo498 on October 17, 2014, 11:00:47 PM
impractically wide dynamics

THAT'S what I'm talking about!!

Quote from: NorthNYMark on October 17, 2014, 12:23:22 PM
This is probably true, but some people seem to misunderstand the audiophile critique of recent "brickwalling" mastering trends (mainly in pop/rock music, but reportedly creeping into classical as well) as being motivated by what you describe.  Generally, even pop and rock recordings tended to have dynamic ranges of between 10 and 14 db, and that has been reduced over the past twenty years or so to averages closer to 7 or so via digital limiting software.  This is usually done to raise the average recording level to what had previously been reserved for the loudest peaks (and therefore make the overall recording louder); the problem is that this distorts aspects of the sound and produces a more fatiguing listening experience.  Those who oppose dynamic range limiting are not necessarily hoping for the huge, macrodynamic crescendo effects of classical music (though a minority probably values this), but just want a "normal" dynamic range such that a cymbal crash, for instance, actually sounds like a cymbal crash rather than white noise.  Some people actually get headaches from listening to overly dynamically compressed music (since your ears so rarely get the momentary breaks that a normally fluctuating dynamic tends to produce).

Classical dynamics are different--I sometimes wonder why classical performers produce such nearly inaudible ppp sections (often for extended periods) that if you turn up the volume just enough to barely hear what they are playing, you risk damaging your hearing when the tuttis come in.  But I would rather that be adjusted at the level of the performance than by a mastering engineer messing with the dynamic range after the fact.  Or, more practically, by the recording (not mastering) engineer using analog compressors, which produce a much more pleasant sound than that produced by digital limiting.

OK, "audiophile" rant over.  ;)

shall we make a new Thread??? right on br-u-tha
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise --- PETRENKO 13---
Post by: kishnevi on October 18, 2014, 10:13:45 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on October 18, 2014, 07:50:31 AM
How is that opening? Is the very first note very low, or normal? How close is the choir? errr... how are the dynamic levels???haha


THAT'S what I'm talking about!!

shall we make a new Thread??? right on br-u-tha

Sorry, I was listening to the music, not the engineering.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: NorthNYMark on October 18, 2014, 12:34:21 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 17, 2014, 11:00:47 PM
As I do not listen to Pop/Rock I have no experience with the "loudness wars".

But I could never understand complaints of audiophile classical listeners against older, "less dynamic" recordings, because I share the impression that some (admittedly very good) newer recordings have impractically wide dynamics and I cannot remember a single occasion when I disliked a (historical) recording because the differences in dynamics were not wide enough (I might have forgotten, there are bad recordings, but most of the time they are bad for other reasons.)

I tend to agree, if the "less dynamic" recordings in question are from, say, the analogue stereo era.  If you mean actual "historical" recordings (which to me usually implies wartime or earlier mono recordings), I can see the problem, in that the tuttis tend to sound extremely congested (and sometimes distorted) due to the lack of recording headroom.  Something like Furtwängler's famous wartime Beethoven's Fifth is an example of a recording that is basically unlistenable to me for that reason. 

In defense of the audiophiles who prefer the extreme dynamics of more recent recordings, once you get used to hearing something approaching the full dynamics of real, live instruments, conventional recording dynamics can sound very artificial in comparison.  I will admit a liking for the sound of the analog compression used on the Decca and RCA recordings of the late '50s and early '60s--to me, those recordings have a tubey, euphonic warmth that I often prefer to the more "accurate" presentation that we tend to get from the most recent recordings.  I also am more protective of my hearing than many who love to blast music at concert hall levels, so the most extreme dynamic range doesn't work for me. Still, digital dynamic range compression at the mastering stage almost always sounds awful, and I have heard that Sony among others has been doing that with some of their recent budget classical reissues (though I haven't noticed it yet myself).
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: André on October 19, 2014, 11:22:32 AM
I have two cycles (Barshaï and Kondrashin). But since there are a few symphonies I don't really relate to (1-3, 12), and  others I like but don't feel impelled to sextuplicate (6, 9, 10, 13, 14) that leaves 6 I really dig (4, 5, 7, 8, 11, 15).

Recently I listened to the Rozhdestvensky Ministry of Culture version of 4 (the first movement of which is my fave among all DSCH, a symphony unto itself). I was awed and overwhelmed. Better even than Kondrashin-Concertgebouw and Haitink-Chicago.     

I then listened to an mp 3 of Rozh-Ministry 8th symphony and, Bingo again ! Wow !! I thus decided to scour Amazon for more Rozh-Ministry of Magic Shostakovich and, after deciding against buying an integral set for 2599$, I went for symphonies 5, 7, 8, 9,10, 11. 

........................................................

Just listened to the Tenth under Karel Ancerl (Czech Philharmonic, 1956 DGG-Supraphon). Remarkable, if decidedly severe, even forbidding.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Cosi bel do on October 19, 2014, 04:33:41 PM
Quote from: André on October 19, 2014, 11:22:32 AM
I have two cycles (Barshaï and Kondrashin). But since there are a few symphonies I don't really relate to (1-3, 12), and  others I like but don't feel impelled to sextuplicate (6, 9, 10, 13, 14) that leaves 6 I really dig (4, 5, 7, 8, 11, 15).

Recently I listened to the Rozhdestvensky Ministry of Culture version of 4 (the first movement of which is my fave among all DSCH, a symphony unto itself). I was awed and overwhelmed. Better even than Kondrashin-Concertgebouw and Haitink-Chicago.     

I then listened to an mp 3 of Rozh-Ministry 8th symphony and, Bingo again ! Wow !! I thus decided to scour Amazon for more Rozh-Ministry of Magic Shostakovich and, after deciding against buying an integral set for 2599$, I went for symphonies 5, 7, 8, 9,10, 11. 

........................................................

Just listened to the Tenth under Karel Ancerl (Czech Philharmonic, 1956 DGG-Supraphon). Remarkable, if decidedly severe, even forbidding.

The Rozhdestvensky complete cycle is also in my opinion the best on record. It's a shame Melodiya won't release it again but they have a funny way to manage their catalogue (the BMG releases 15 years ago were not very good in terms of remastering, but they made these recordings available for a few years).
Anyway, keep looking because you're right, there's no better set than this one.

By the way, Rozhdestvensky should not be missed in concert, he is really a fascinating character.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on October 20, 2014, 02:51:18 AM
Quote from: André on October 19, 2014, 11:22:32 AM
........................................................

Just listened to the Tenth under Karel Ancerl (Czech Philharmonic, 1956 DGG-Supraphon). Remarkable, if decidedly severe, even forbidding.

Yes, a marvelous performance.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: RebLem on October 20, 2014, 10:20:40 AM
I am going to plunge in right here, having read only pages 1 and 68 of this thread so far--there's just no way I can read the whole thing, sorry, because I really haven't read any of it before, I don't think.  I own 7 complete sets of the Shostakovich symphonies, one of which--the Oleg Caetani set (he's the son of Igor Markevitch, and chooses to use his mother's surname)--I have yet to listen to at all.  Another is the Ashkenazy set--I am currently in the process of auditioning these, and so far, I have listened to Syms 1-8 and 10.  The five I have listened to all the way through, are, in order of my personal preference, from best to worst, Kondrashin, Maxim Shostakovich, Barshai, Haitink, and bringing up the rear, Rostropovich. 

Rostropovich just doesn't appeal to me at all.  Haitink is excellent in the four symphonies that use the human voice, and in the song cycles that are fillers in the set; the other performances seem to me like routine run-throughs.  Barshai has three big advantages--some excellent performances, lowest price, and by far the best sound.  I know that Maksim Shostakovich's set has been panned by most critics, but I find them to be excellent performances.  I don't know what the critics are talking about.  Kondrashin is musically the best--exciting, visceral, and committed.  And its in pretty good sound, though not the best, even for its time, which I believe was in the early 1970's.  The big problem is that in the Symphony 13 "Babi Yar," he uses a corrupted Yevtushenko text approved by the Soviet authorities of the time.  The problem the ideologues had with it was that it referred to the victims of Babi Yar as Jews.  This offended those who adhered to official Soviet doctrine, which always tried to emphasize the class unity of all peoples regardless of religion, ethnicity, or race.  The important thing, they said, was that the victims were Soviet citizens, not that they were Jews. 

I haven't heard any of the Gergiev performances.  I am eager to do so, but I want to wait until all of them are recorded and they are available in a box--preferably a small one, without individual jewel cases for each CD, like the Barshai set has.  As for Jansons, I hadn't even thought of getting that one until I read some of the posts in this thread, which seem to say its right up there with the best, and some say it IS the best.  I suppose I will have to put it on my wants list.

I also own lots of individual recordings of some of the symphonies, including all the Bernsteins.  Almost invariably, the later recordings are better than the first, though they are all pretty good, and the 9th is an exception to the rule--I prefer his Sony recording of 9 to his DGG recording.  Ancerl  is always good in everything; I also have 4 CDs of Maxsim's partial cycle for Collins International, including #15.  In fact, I think Maxsim has recorded #15 three times--his was the first recording of the work, I believe, released about a year after the work's premiere.  To the best of my knowledge, it was issued only on LP and is still my #1 favorite recording of #15, which also happens to be my personal favorite of the Shostakovich symphonies.  One outlier performance which few people even know about it a 1975 recording of the 5th on the Weitblick label--Klaus Tennstedt conducting the Munich Phil, coupled with Janacek's 1st, 2nd, 5th, and 6th Lachnian Dances.  It is better than most recordings of the 5th, and in my opinion, at least the equal of any.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on October 20, 2014, 10:24:49 AM
Quote from: RebLem on October 20, 2014, 10:20:40 AM
. . . I know that Maksim Shostakovich's set has been panned by most critics, but I find them to be excellent performances.

Yes, thanks.

Gergiev at his best is very good, but his "interpretation" of the Fourth is (let us way) wilful.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: kishnevi on October 20, 2014, 10:52:08 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 20, 2014, 10:24:49 AM
Yes, thanks.

Gergiev at his best is very good, but his "interpretation" of the Fourth is (let us way) wilful.

Willful, then, in a way I like. 
Truth to tell, it is the only Gergiev DSCH I unreservedly like.  The others just don't seem to catch fire.

As for Rostropovich, I like his LSO Live recordings, and think what I've heard of his full cycle is much weaker.

I guess RebLem's comment is one reason to fetch in Maxim's cycle at one point.
And yes, Kondrashin is the best of what I've heard.  I generally like Barshai, but I think he did a pratfall in the Eleventh.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise waaah- leave Slava alooooone-wa
Post by: snyprrr on October 20, 2014, 06:27:17 PM
I will give a shout out to the Teldec Rostropovich 4 and 15,... and 14. Please perhaps try those three again. His 13th is the 'worst' I've got. I do like the monstrous 5th for DDG.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise OZAWA
Post by: snyprrr on October 20, 2014, 06:27:48 PM
OZAWA 5th on Decca, anyone?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on October 20, 2014, 06:30:30 PM
Quote from: RebLem on October 20, 2014, 10:20:40 AM
I am going to plunge in right here, having read only pages 1 and 68

GOOD. LUCK.


:P

... and the lolz was had by all...
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise waaah- leave Slava alooooone-wa
Post by: kishnevi on October 20, 2014, 06:33:39 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on October 20, 2014, 06:27:17 PM
I will give a shout out to the Teldec Rostropovich 4 and 15,... and 14. Please perhaps try those three again. His 13th is the 'worst' I've got. I do like the monstrous 5th for DDG.

Must disagree.  In fact the Teldec Fourth is the worst Fourth I remember hearing.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: aukhawk on October 21, 2014, 12:35:17 AM
Quote from: RebLem on October 20, 2014, 10:20:40 AM
I own 7 complete sets of the Shostakovich symphonies, one of which--the Oleg Caetani set (he's the son of Igor Markevitch, and chooses to use his mother's surname)--I have yet to listen to at all.

Many of the Caetani recordings are outstanding.  I particularly like his 1st and 8th - both illustrate his definite tendency to be quite speedy.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise waaah- leave Slava alooooone-wa
Post by: snyprrr on October 21, 2014, 09:34:45 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 20, 2014, 06:33:39 PM
Must disagree.  In fact the Teldec Fourth is the worst Fourth I remember hearing.

huh- well,... interesting. I thought

a) timpani has a nice impact here

b) recording isn't as distant as others- slightly clearer than Jarvi?

c) tension seems to be maintained

d) piccolo- check

e)


I also wanted to add 1 & 9 to the 'listenable' list--- well, at least you must like his original 14th, 1973?


Quote from: aukhawk on October 21, 2014, 12:35:17 AM
Many of the Caetani recordings are outstanding.  I particularly like his 1st and 8th - both illustrate his definite tendency to be quite speedy.

Caetani, at least, does sooomething totally different in every piece. At this point in the game, you really have to, even if you twist the music out of shape. We already have sooo many 'normal' Cycles of both Symphonies and SQs that anyone new venturing here needs to have some good ideas up their sleeve. The only thing is, most of these guys either go ALL fast, or ALL slow- they need to mix up the extremes,... but, at least he's blazing the way for someone even more adventurous.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: techniquest on October 31, 2014, 11:58:20 PM
RebLem, an interesting post. I see you omit to mention either the Kitajenko (Capriccio) or Petrenko (Naxos) complete sets and I would humbly suggest that you put these on your wants list before the Jansons set.  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Pat B on January 23, 2015, 11:00:53 AM
I just listened to Rostropovich's 11 on LSO Live.

I don't really know this music well enough yet for a descriptive commentary, but I can say: WOW.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: kishnevi on January 23, 2015, 11:38:23 AM
My feelings exactly.  And I think his LSO 8 is just as good.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 23, 2015, 11:41:00 AM
Quote from: Pat B on January 23, 2015, 11:00:53 AM
I just listened to Rostropovich's 11 on LSO Live.

WOW.

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 23, 2015, 11:38:23 AM
My feelings exactly.

Mine too.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on January 25, 2015, 04:43:06 AM
Sarge,

do you have the earliest and last recording date of the G.Rozhdestvensky cycle??

Otherwise I've established so much, so far:

R.Barshai / WDR SO   Brilliant, 11 CDs    1992 - 2000   1992   2000
            
B.Haitink / RCO, LPO   Decca , 11 CDs   1976 - 1985   1977   1984
            
M.Shostakovich / Prague SO   Supraphon 10 CDs    1995-2006??   1995   1999
            
M.Rostropovich / NSO, LSO, Academic SO Moscow   Warner , 12 CDs   1988-1995 (+ 1973)   1973   1995
            
Y.Mravinsky / Leningrad PO   (incomplete)         
            
K.Kondrashin / Moscow PO   Melodiya, 11 CDs  , Aulos 10 CDs .   1965 - 1975   1965   1975
            
V.Petrenko / R.Liverpool PO   Naxos      2008   2013
            
M.Jansons / Various   EMI - Warner    1988 - 2005   1988   2005
            
M.Wigglesworth / Netherlands RPO, BBS NO Wales   BIS      1997   2014
            
V.Ashekenazy / Royal Phil., St.Petersburg PO, NHK SO   Decca, 12 CDs    1987-1995 + 2000/2006   1987   2006
            
DG Mixed Cycle Collector's Edition   (Bernstein 1, 6, 7, 9, Chung 4, Järvi 2, 3, 11-15, Karajan 10 (19XX), Previn 8, Rostropovich 5)       1981   2000
            
L.Slovak / Czech RSO   Naxos       1986   1991
            
O. Caetani /  Giuseppe Verdi SO Milan   Arts, 10 SACD s      2000   2006
            
R.Kofman / Beethoven Orchester Bonn    M|DG 11 SACDs   rel. 2003 - 2008   2003   2006

E.Inbal / WSO 90, 94,    Denon, 11 CDs    1990 - 1993 but dates for Symphonies 9 & 12 missing.      
            
K.Sanderling / Berliner SO (incomplete) 1,5,6,8,10,15   Berlin Classics      1976   1983

N.Jaervi, 4 (89), 5 (88), 10 (88), 9 (87), 7 (87), 8 (89)   Chandos         
            
Andrey Boyreko   Haenssler         
            
Semyon Bychkov - 4, 7, 8, 10, 11            
            
Temirkanov - 1, 5-7, 9, 13, Petersburg Phil   RCA   ?   1988   2006
            
Solti            
            
Vakhtang Jordania / Russian FSO, DSO Berlin, Royal Phil.   Angelok         
            
DePriest / Helsinki 5 (92), 8 (91), 9 (<96), 10 (<92), 11 (88), 12 (<96)   Ondine / Delos (10)         
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on January 31, 2015, 05:15:55 AM
I have the dates of the Rozhdestvensky, weened of my individual discs... but I lack Nos. 8 & 12... Sarge, could you by chance check for me and see when they were recorded?
The song cycles that are included in the issue you have (I think) tend to come later (up to 1991).

I was able to look up the Inbal concerts in the Konzerthaus database -- but 9 & 12 were not performed/recorded there. Await word from someone at the VSO but if anyone here has the recordings, perhaps they could just check out where and when those two symphonies were recorded?

G.Rozhdestvensky / Leningrad PO, Moscow PO, USSR Ministry of Culture SO   Melodiya, 14 CDs    1983-1986 ohne Lieder   1983 (z.B.#11)   1986 (z.B.#10)
            
E.Inbal / WSO 90, 94,    Denon, 11 CDs    9 & 12 missing   1990   1993
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Jo498 on January 31, 2015, 05:43:52 AM
For the 8th Moscow 1983 (I do not have #12 from this set)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 31, 2015, 06:21:34 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 31, 2015, 05:15:55 AM
I have the dates of the Rozhdestvensky, weened of my individual discs... but I lack Nos. 8 & 12... Sarge, could you by chance check for me and see when they were recorded?
The song cycles that are included in the issue you have (I think) tend to come later (up to 1991).

Sorry. My discs don't have recording dates, only a copyright date ("Made under license from Melodiya Australia 1987).

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/gmgpictures/Shos6_12.jpg) (http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/oct2010/shos8rozh.jpg)

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on January 31, 2015, 06:31:25 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 25, 2015, 04:43:06 AM
Sarge,

do you have the earliest and last recording date of the G.Rozhdestvensky cycle??

Otherwise I've established so much, so far:

R.Barshai / WDR SO   Brilliant, 11 CDs    1992 - 2000   1992   2000
            
B.Haitink / RCO, LPO   Decca , 11 CDs   1976 - 1985   1977   1984
            
M.Shostakovich / Prague SO   Supraphon 10 CDs    1995-2006??   1995   1999
            
M.Rostropovich / NSO, LSO, Academic SO Moscow   Warner , 12 CDs   1988-1995 (+ 1973)   1973   1995
            
Y.Mravinsky / Leningrad PO   (incomplete)         
            
K.Kondrashin / Moscow PO   Melodiya, 11 CDs  , Aulos 10 CDs .   1965 - 1975   1965   1975
            
V.Petrenko / R.Liverpool PO   Naxos      2008   2013
            
M.Jansons / Various   EMI - Warner    1988 - 2005   1988   2005
            
M.Wigglesworth / Netherlands RPO, BBS NO Wales   BIS      1997   2014
            
V.Ashekenazy / Royal Phil., St.Petersburg PO, NHK SO   Decca, 12 CDs    1987-1995 + 2000/2006   1987   2006
            
DG Mixed Cycle Collector's Edition   (Bernstein 1, 6, 7, 9, Chung 4, Järvi 2, 3, 11-15, Karajan 10 (19XX), Previn 8, Rostropovich 5)       1981   2000
            
L.Slovak / Czech RSO   Naxos       1986   1991
            
O. Caetani /  Giuseppe Verdi SO Milan   Arts, 10 SACD s      2000   2006
            
R.Kofman / Beethoven Orchester Bonn    M|DG 11 SACDs   rel. 2003 - 2008   2003   2006

E.Inbal / WSO 90, 94,    Denon, 11 CDs    1990 - 1993 but dates for Symphonies 9 & 12 missing.      
            
K.Sanderling / Berliner SO (incomplete) 1,5,6,8,10,15   Berlin Classics      1976   1983

N.Jaervi, 4 (89), 5 (88), 10 (88), 9 (87), 7 (87), 8 (89)   Chandos         
            
Andrey Boyreko   Haenssler         
            
Semyon Bychkov - 4, 7, 8, 10, 11            
            
Temirkanov - 1, 5-7, 9, 13, Petersburg Phil   RCA   ?   1988   2006
            
Solti            
            
Vakhtang Jordania / Russian FSO, DSO Berlin, Royal Phil.   Angelok         
            
DePriest / Helsinki 5 (92), 8 (91), 9 (<96), 10 (<92), 11 (88), 12 (<96)   Ondine / Delos (10)
\
and they accuse me of being obsessive! haha :P


Solti 9 'Carnegie Hall project' June 13/21 1994

Solti 13, Feb. 1995

Solti 15, Mar ch 1997
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on January 31, 2015, 08:02:54 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 31, 2015, 05:43:52 AM
For the 8th Moscow 1983 (I do not have #12 from this set)

Thanks! Turns out I have 12 (was thinking of 13, but have that, too). So #8 is the only one I am missing from the cycle... and you just provided the date. Perfect. Between 1983 and 1986 it is.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Abuelo Igor on February 05, 2015, 02:56:13 PM
Quote from: RebLem on October 20, 2014, 10:20:40 AMwithout individual jewel cases for each CD, like the Barshai set has.

Not in my copy, and I must have bought it some 12 years ago.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on February 07, 2015, 03:38:09 PM
Some images: Mravinsky Melodiya Individual Mix

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3habJcXWBhI/VNauPxDbSHI/AAAAAAAAH5M/4Cx1pOVoaa0/s1600/Mravinsky_OTHER_Melodiya_Shostakovich_cycles_ionarts_laurson.jpg)

Kondrashin Other-than-Melodiya Individual Mix

(https://images-blogger-opensocial.googleusercontent.com/gadgets/proxy?url=http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-3k44E6DFA00/VM6-nTuWIiI/AAAAAAAAH4c/8fAOl1UCaY4/s1600/Kondrashin_OTHER_non-Melodiya.jpg&container=blogger&gadget=a&rewriteMime=image/*)

Haitink Decca Individual

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-hlxuqjPBvHg/VNavEacfeXI/AAAAAAAAH5c/wrq7u301ZKA/s1600/DSCH_Symphony-Survey_ionarts_jens-f-laurson_Haitink_DECCA.jpg)

Haitink Decca Ovation

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9oKiL77pGF4/VNavDEP7UII/AAAAAAAAH5U/Mciy0NVSuHw/s1600/DSCH_Symphony-Survey_ionarts_jens-f-laurson_Haitink_DECCA-Ovation.jpg)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on February 08, 2015, 07:47:53 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 07, 2015, 03:38:09 PM
Some images: Mravinsky Melodiya Individual Mix

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3habJcXWBhI/VNauPxDbSHI/AAAAAAAAH5M/4Cx1pOVoaa0/s1600/Mravinsky_OTHER_Melodiya_Shostakovich_cycles_ionarts_laurson.jpg)

Kondrashin Other-than-Melodiya Individual Mix

(https://images-blogger-opensocial.googleusercontent.com/gadgets/proxy?url=http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-3k44E6DFA00/VM6-nTuWIiI/AAAAAAAAH4c/8fAOl1UCaY4/s1600/Kondrashin_OTHER_non-Melodiya.jpg&container=blogger&gadget=a&rewriteMime=image/*)

Haitink Decca Individual

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-hlxuqjPBvHg/VNavEacfeXI/AAAAAAAAH5c/wrq7u301ZKA/s1600/DSCH_Symphony-Survey_ionarts_jens-f-laurson_Haitink_DECCA.jpg)

Haitink Decca Ovation

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9oKiL77pGF4/VNavDEP7UII/AAAAAAAAH5U/Mciy0NVSuHw/s1600/DSCH_Symphony-Survey_ionarts_jens-f-laurson_Haitink_DECCA-Ovation.jpg)

we could use you in the SQ Thread!! ;)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: aukhawk on February 10, 2015, 12:35:31 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 07, 2015, 03:38:09 PM
Some images: Mravinsky Melodiya Individual Mix

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3habJcXWBhI/VNauPxDbSHI/AAAAAAAAH5M/4Cx1pOVoaa0/s1600/Mravinsky_OTHER_Melodiya_Shostakovich_cycles_ionarts_laurson.jpg)

Kondrashin Other-than-Melodiya Individual Mix

(https://images-blogger-opensocial.googleusercontent.com/gadgets/proxy?url=http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-3k44E6DFA00/VM6-nTuWIiI/AAAAAAAAH4c/8fAOl1UCaY4/s1600/Kondrashin_OTHER_non-Melodiya.jpg&container=blogger&gadget=a&rewriteMime=image/*)

Haitink Decca Individual

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-hlxuqjPBvHg/VNavEacfeXI/AAAAAAAAH5c/wrq7u301ZKA/s1600/DSCH_Symphony-Survey_ionarts_jens-f-laurson_Haitink_DECCA.jpg)

Haitink Decca Ovation

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9oKiL77pGF4/VNavDEP7UII/AAAAAAAAH5U/Mciy0NVSuHw/s1600/DSCH_Symphony-Survey_ionarts_jens-f-laurson_Haitink_DECCA-Ovation.jpg)

If anyone else quotes the message I'll be able to print off a roll of wallpaper ...
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Wanderer on February 10, 2015, 12:39:11 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 07, 2015, 03:38:09 PM
Some images: Mravinsky Melodiya Individual Mix

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3habJcXWBhI/VNauPxDbSHI/AAAAAAAAH5M/4Cx1pOVoaa0/s1600/Mravinsky_OTHER_Melodiya_Shostakovich_cycles_ionarts_laurson.jpg)

Kondrashin Other-than-Melodiya Individual Mix

(https://images-blogger-opensocial.googleusercontent.com/gadgets/proxy?url=http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-3k44E6DFA00/VM6-nTuWIiI/AAAAAAAAH4c/8fAOl1UCaY4/s1600/Kondrashin_OTHER_non-Melodiya.jpg&container=blogger&gadget=a&rewriteMime=image/*)

Haitink Decca Individual

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-hlxuqjPBvHg/VNavEacfeXI/AAAAAAAAH5c/wrq7u301ZKA/s1600/DSCH_Symphony-Survey_ionarts_jens-f-laurson_Haitink_DECCA.jpg)

Haitink Decca Ovation

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9oKiL77pGF4/VNavDEP7UII/AAAAAAAAH5U/Mciy0NVSuHw/s1600/DSCH_Symphony-Survey_ionarts_jens-f-laurson_Haitink_DECCA-Ovation.jpg)
Quote from: aukhawk on February 10, 2015, 12:35:31 AM
If anyone else quotes the message I'll be able to print off a roll of wallpaper ...

There you go, buddy!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on February 10, 2015, 04:27:43 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on February 10, 2015, 12:39:11 AM
There you go, buddy!

We are nothing, if not an accommodating lot!  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on February 10, 2015, 04:43:31 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on February 10, 2015, 12:35:31 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 07, 2015, 03:38:09 PM
Some images: Mravinsky Melodiya Individual Mix

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3habJcXWBhI/VNauPxDbSHI/AAAAAAAAH5M/4Cx1pOVoaa0/s1600/Mravinsky_OTHER_Melodiya_Shostakovich_cycles_ionarts_laurson.jpg)

Kondrashin Other-than-Melodiya Individual Mix

(https://images-blogger-opensocial.googleusercontent.com/gadgets/proxy?url=http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-3k44E6DFA00/VM6-nTuWIiI/AAAAAAAAH4c/8fAOl1UCaY4/s1600/Kondrashin_OTHER_non-Melodiya.jpg&container=blogger&gadget=a&rewriteMime=image/*)

Haitink Decca Individual

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-hlxuqjPBvHg/VNavEacfeXI/AAAAAAAAH5c/wrq7u301ZKA/s1600/DSCH_Symphony-Survey_ionarts_jens-f-laurson_Haitink_DECCA.jpg)

Haitink Decca Ovation

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9oKiL77pGF4/VNavDEP7UII/AAAAAAAAH5U/Mciy0NVSuHw/s1600/DSCH_Symphony-Survey_ionarts_jens-f-laurson_Haitink_DECCA-Ovation.jpg)
If anyone else quotes the message I'll be able to print off a roll of wallpaper ...

Yes... but wait for the Ashkenazy Update Edition!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on February 16, 2015, 04:22:21 AM
As part of the work on the upcoming DSCH-Symphony Cycle Survey:

Mravinsky, Non-Melodiya

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-gJs21L9-EtM/VOHsD-kz3nI/AAAAAAAAH8g/hG_5mDPgsTo/s1600/Mravinsky_OTHER_non-Melodiya_Shostakovich_cycles_ionarts_laurson.jpg)


Rozhdestvensky, BMG-Melodiya

(https://images-blogger-opensocial.googleusercontent.com/gadgets/proxy?url=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0FIsXv_crnU/VOImIUjJiWI/AAAAAAAAH9Q/o64aO0Xfh_I/s1600/Rozhdestvensky_BMG-Melodiya_Shostakovich_Individual_ionarts_laurson.jpg&container=blogger&gadget=a&rewriteMime=image/*)


Rozhdestvensky, Eurodisc-Melodiya

(https://images-blogger-opensocial.googleusercontent.com/gadgets/proxy?url=http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-luO8I8zhNUY/VOImKnZUnqI/AAAAAAAAH9Y/Y_DyuljwqSM/s1600/Rozhdestvensky_Individual_Eurodisc-Melodiya_Shostakovich_cycles_ionarts_laurson.jpg&container=blogger&gadget=a&rewriteMime=image/*)


Rozhdestvensky, Olympia

(https://images-blogger-opensocial.googleusercontent.com/gadgets/proxy?url=http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-CzSHNTQ1gN0/VOI-CiMGtkI/AAAAAAAAH9o/Jb2RWtPWW6M/s1600/Rozhdestvensky_Individual_Olympia_Shostakovich_cycles_ionarts_laurson.jpg&container=blogger&gadget=a&rewriteMime=image/*)


Ladislav Slovak, Naxos

(https://images-blogger-opensocial.googleusercontent.com/gadgets/proxy?url=http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-c9B1qD0qUng/VOJRcLk4GAI/AAAAAAAAH-E/B_1vkuy_Clg/s1600/Slovak_Individual_Naxos_Shostakovich_cycles_ionarts_laurson.jpg&container=blogger&gadget=a&rewriteMime=image/*)


Eliahu Inbal, Denon

(https://images-blogger-opensocial.googleusercontent.com/gadgets/proxy?url=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Bps02HHzeaI/VOJjDMXeTeI/AAAAAAAAH-U/ck44snNYUD0/s1600/Inbal_Individual_Denon_Shostakovich_cycles_ionarts_laurson.jpg&container=blogger&gadget=a&rewriteMime=image/*)


Slava, Teldec

(https://images-blogger-opensocial.googleusercontent.com/gadgets/proxy?url=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AnX4YhUY8Ak/VOKCE0utpuI/AAAAAAAAH_Q/8KpuFPWXgr8/s1600/Rostropovich_Teldec_Individual_Shostakovich_cycles_ionarts_laurson.jpg&container=blogger&gadget=a&rewriteMime=image/*)

(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/search/label/Discography)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on February 16, 2015, 07:25:11 AM

Does anyone have an image of the Rozhdestvensky DSCH 10 on Melodiya-EURODISC?

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: aukhawk on February 16, 2015, 01:43:59 PM
No - can I offer you Svetlanov instead?  ;)

(http://www.aukadia.net/pix/svet-sh10.jpg)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on February 16, 2015, 01:58:34 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on February 16, 2015, 01:43:59 PM
No - can I offer you Svetlanov instead?  ;)

(http://www.aukadia.net/pix/svet-sh10.jpg)

That's very kind (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/useless).

Anyone know if Rostropovich's Babi Yar was ever released on Teldec (as part of the series with the paintings) or only ever on Erato?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Drasko on February 16, 2015, 03:59:44 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 16, 2015, 04:22:21 AM
As part of the work on the upcoming DSCH-Symphony Cycle Survey:
(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/search/label/Discography)

Don't know how comprehensive you intend it to be but there are some, mostly Japanese, Mravinsky and Kondrashin live recordings that could be added:

http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Shostakovich-1906-1975_000000000021314/item_Symphony-No-5-Mravinsky-Leningrad-Philharmonic-1973-5-26-Tokyo-Live_875239

http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Shostakovich-1906-1975_000000000021314/item_Sym-8-Kondrashin-Moscow-Po-1967-Tokyo-mussorgsky_1941112

http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Shostakovich-1906-1975_000000000021314/item_Sym-6-Violin-Concerto-1-Oistrakh-Kondrashin-Moscow-po-67-4-18-4_545773

and the first, 1938, recording of the 5th:
http://www.amazon.com/Yevgeni-Mravinsky-Vol-2/dp/B002CZJJ4E

there also should be Mravinsky live recording from the premiere of the 11th, on Russian Disc.

and on that Kondrashin non-cycle picture the new Praga 13th and the Russian Disc one with the little girl should be the same recording. 
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on February 16, 2015, 04:46:24 PM
Quote from: Drasko on February 16, 2015, 03:59:44 PM
Don't know how comprehensive you intend it to be but there are some, mostly Japanese, Mravinsky and Kondrashin live recordings that could be added:

http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Shostakovich-1906-1975_000000000021314/item_Symphony-No-5-Mravinsky-Leningrad-Philharmonic-1973-5-26-Tokyo-Live_875239

http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Shostakovich-1906-1975_000000000021314/item_Sym-8-Kondrashin-Moscow-Po-1967-Tokyo-mussorgsky_1941112

http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Shostakovich-1906-1975_000000000021314/item_Sym-6-Violin-Concerto-1-Oistrakh-Kondrashin-Moscow-po-67-4-18-4_545773

and the first, 1938, recording of the 5th:
http://www.amazon.com/Yevgeni-Mravinsky-Vol-2/dp/B002CZJJ4E

there also should be Mravinsky live recording from the premiere of the 11th, on Russian Disc.

and on that Kondrashin non-cycle picture the new Praga 13th and the Russian Disc one with the little girl should be the same recording.

Thanks much! I've got most of them, though did not include any of the Altus recordings, as they're not on Amazon for some reason.

It turned into a bit of a Kondrashin & Mravinsky  discography, which meant several days of link-searching and double checking and referencing... when initially I wanted a quick-and-reasonably-easy list of complete sets, only. Praga duplicates and duplicities are all noted...

The premiere of the 11th was conducted by Nathan Rakhlin, so I don't think I'll find a recording of Mravinsky conducting it. There is a recording of a performance just after it; that's included. (On Russian Disc)

"Symphony No.13, Moscow Philharmonic Orchestra (not the same!), December 20, 1962, Praga
Praga has a history of faking DSCH recordings; this is allegedly the second performance (otherwise found on Russian Disc)"


[with the original text in hand, that should be easy to verify. I only have the Praga of those two.]

This is what I have now, for Kondrashin: http://bit.ly/Kondrashin_SHOSTAKOVICH_Other_laurson (http://bit.ly/Kondrashin_SHOSTAKOVICH_Other_laurson) and this for Mravinsky: http://bit.ly/Mravinsky_OTHER_DSCH-survey_Laurson (http://bit.ly/Mravinsky_OTHER_DSCH-survey_Laurson)

Ashkenazy / Decca

(https://images-blogger-opensocial.googleusercontent.com/gadgets/proxy?url=http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-P1TaVkQ06Fk/VOKm9AYNVtI/AAAAAAAAH_w/QedIkDhYl0U/s1600/Ashkenazy_Decca_Individual_Shostakovich_cycles_ionarts_laurson.jpg&container=blogger&gadget=a&rewriteMime=image/*)   (https://images-blogger-opensocial.googleusercontent.com/gadgets/proxy?url=http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-k9qpYvLtUpw/VOMkIztCoZI/AAAAAAAAIAA/0T0o18Nq4iw/s1600/Ashkenazy_Decca_Individual_Shostakovich_cycles_ionarts_laurson.jpg&container=blogger&gadget=a&rewriteMime=image/*) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/search/label/Discography)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Drasko on February 17, 2015, 06:25:08 AM
Praga Konrashin 13th is the real thing. I caught the first movement wen they played it on BBC3 and it's definitely non censored lyrics.

Knew about Rakhlin, lazy typing, meant Leningrad premiere.

Altus live stereo 5th from Tokyo (26 May 1973) is definitely real also, I have it, probably best recorded Mravinsky 5.
Altus also has Vienna 5th and another one that I don't know.

There are also videos of Mravinsky's Shostakovich. Soviet videos released by Japanese company Dreamlife as 2x2DVDs (there seems to be a third DVD/set with which I'm unfamiliar). Of Shostakovich there is 5th (1973, filmed in front of empty hall), 8th (also empty hall, the date given for the actual concert following the filming is 28.03.1982) and 12th (concert with the audience, date given 28.04.1984). Preceding 5th and 8th there are 10-15 minute interviews with Mravinsky.

(http://s27.postimg.org/sv49jo5in/dlvc1111.jpg)  (http://s27.postimg.org/tyodvmq5r/dlvc1116.jpg)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on February 17, 2015, 06:43:17 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 16, 2015, 01:58:34 PM
That's very kind (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/useless).

Anyone know if Rostropovich's Babi Yar was ever released on Teldec (as part of the series with the paintings) or only ever on Erato?

just erato
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: snyprrr on February 17, 2015, 06:44:01 AM
now u haf 2 post in my thread!!! ;)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on February 17, 2015, 07:54:18 AM
My favourite Shostakovich cover image (notice Stalin in the background). Performance is great too.

[asin]B000K7VKVQ[/asin]
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on February 17, 2015, 09:51:44 AM
Jaervi / Chandos & DG, Petrenko / Naxos, Wigglesworth / BIS

(https://images-blogger-opensocial.googleusercontent.com/gadgets/proxy?url=http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_-GWRI3lXkM/VON42ryRk_I/AAAAAAAAIAg/1agDpxS5pWw/s1600/Neeme-Jaervi_Chandos_DG_Individual_Shostakovich_cycles_ionarts_laurson.jpg&container=blogger&gadget=a&rewriteMime=image/*)  (https://images-blogger-opensocial.googleusercontent.com/gadgets/proxy?url=http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-roy_1aH7SEE/VOOnoqRPKUI/AAAAAAAAIBg/fhyOVTCeZ9E/s1600/Petrenko_NAXOS_Individual_Shostakovich_cycles_ionarts_laurson.jpg&container=blogger&gadget=a&rewriteMime=image/*)  (https://images-blogger-opensocial.googleusercontent.com/gadgets/proxy?url=http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-i2QiBonmaLQ/VOOhrrA60vI/AAAAAAAAIBQ/4p40iTi-cYI/s1600/Wigglesworth_BIS_Individual_Shostakovich_cycles_ionarts_laurson.jpg&container=blogger&gadget=a&rewriteMime=image/*) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/search/label/Discography)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on February 17, 2015, 12:26:06 PM
Almost finished! Sneak preview. Put way to much work into this... yikes. :-)



A Survey of Shostakovich Symphony Cycles


(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3uBWhVKfq1I/VM4Gk0HOS1I/AAAAAAAAH3U/71jwhvP2_oo/s1600/Shostakovich_old3_laurson_600.jpg)

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/02/a-survey-of-shostakovich-symphony-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/02/a-survey-of-shostakovich-symphony-cycles.html)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on May 04, 2015, 12:06:49 PM
Updated with Gergiev's new Blu-ray Cycle.


A Survey of Shostakovich Symphony Cycles


(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3uBWhVKfq1I/VM4Gk0HOS1I/AAAAAAAAH3U/71jwhvP2_oo/s1600/Shostakovich_old3_laurson_600.jpg)

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/02/a-survey-of-shostakovich-symphony-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/02/a-survey-of-shostakovich-symphony-cycles.html)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Moonfish on May 04, 2015, 03:02:32 PM
Hmm, why are there two major threads for Shostakovich?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Moonfish on May 04, 2015, 03:07:58 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 16, 2015, 07:25:11 AM

Does anyone have an image of the Rozhdestvensky DSCH 10 on Melodiya-EURODISC?


Not sure if you still need it..? (or if it is the correct one?) I presume that you are looking for the "head" series on Melodiya?

(http://cdn.discogs.com/D1zr0Oz1_LmLg3jQWJOvkqvv1E0=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(96)/discogs-images/R-5663634-1399300264-2392.jpeg.jpg)

(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/OTA5WDExNTk=/z/7soAAOxy3cJTivDG/$_35.JPG)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on May 04, 2015, 04:12:15 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 04, 2015, 03:07:58 PM
Not sure if you still need it..? (or if it is the correct one?) I presume that you are looking for the "head" series on Melodiya?

(http://cdn.discogs.com/D1zr0Oz1_LmLg3jQWJOvkqvv1E0=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(96)/discogs-images/R-5663634-1399300264-2392.jpeg.jpg)

(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/OTA5WDExNTk=/z/7soAAOxy3cJTivDG/$_35.JPG)

Thanks much; I have that disc now... so I could/should scan it. But I skipped it for my compendium-cover...  and it's too much work right now, to fit it back in.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-luO8I8zhNUY/VOImKnZUnqI/AAAAAAAAH9Y/Y_DyuljwqSM/s1600/Rozhdestvensky_Individual_Eurodisc-Melodiya_Shostakovich_cycles_ionarts_laurson.jpg)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Mirror Image on May 04, 2015, 04:17:10 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 04, 2015, 03:02:32 PM
Hmm, why are there two major threads for Shostakovich?

Because one is simply not enough! ;D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Moonfish on May 04, 2015, 04:25:52 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 04, 2015, 04:17:10 PM
Because one is simply not enough! ;D

Yes, I can see that...   ::)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Moonfish on May 04, 2015, 04:26:21 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 04, 2015, 04:12:15 PM
Thanks much; I have that disc now... so I could/should scan it. But I skipped it for my compendium-cover...  and it's too much work right now, to fit it back in.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-luO8I8zhNUY/VOImKnZUnqI/AAAAAAAAH9Y/Y_DyuljwqSM/s1600/Rozhdestvensky_Individual_Eurodisc-Melodiya_Shostakovich_cycles_ionarts_laurson.jpg)

I like the album collages you made. They are inspiring!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: kishnevi on May 04, 2015, 05:31:14 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 04, 2015, 03:02:32 PM
Hmm, why are there two major threads for Shostakovich?

There are actually three.... this one, the Dacha, and snypp's quest for the perfect SQ cycle.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on May 04, 2015, 06:57:55 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 04, 2015, 05:31:14 PM
There are actually three.... this one, the Dacha, and snypp's quest for the perfect SQ cycle.

He's on a mission from God ....
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Madiel on May 05, 2015, 05:03:14 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 04, 2015, 03:02:32 PM
Hmm, why are there two major threads for Shostakovich?

Because this is a music-specific thread. One of many. Quite a few composers have managed a thread or two in one of the other sections of the forum as well as their one in Composer Discussion.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Madiel on June 23, 2015, 02:11:53 AM
Back again, still haven't bought a cycle, still thinking about doing so (heck, still haven't listened to everything else I bought, what with a Holmboe-fest in Denmark and all that...)

I had previously settled on Janssons, but I'm now also thinking about Barshai and Petrenko. I'll be doing some sampling online methinks.

The question I wanted to ask, though, was about Barshai's sound. In particular, I've come across a review that says the background noise is a bit intrusive in a couple of symphonies. The comments seemed to particularly apply to symphonies 4, 7 and 15.

Any views on this? I do a lot of listening on headphones so background noise is a little bit of a concern.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Moonfish on June 23, 2015, 02:15:58 AM
Just wanted to post the deal on the Kitajenko cycle (19 euros) here as well in case anybody missed it in the bargain thread:

http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B001GZ011Q (http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B001GZ011Q)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71JvjWAEJdL._SL1223_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81CTqRp6rnL._SL1230_.jpg)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles &amp; Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on June 23, 2015, 02:30:00 AM
Quote from: orfeo on June 23, 2015, 02:11:53 AM
Back again, still haven't bought a cycle, still thinking about doing so (heck, still haven't listened to everything else I bought, what with a Holmboe-fest in Denmark and all that...)

I had previously settled on Janssons, but I'm now also thinking about Barshai and Petrenko. I'll be doing some sampling online methinks.

The question I wanted to ask, though, was about Barshai's sound. In particular, I've come across a review that says the background noise is a bit intrusive in a couple of symphonies. The comments seemed to particularly apply to symphonies 4, 7 and 15.

Any views on this? I do a lot of listening on headphones so background noise is a little bit of a concern.
Personally, I find the Barshai set an overall disappointment compared to the Jansons, and I mean execution rather than sound quality.

I've not yet heard all of Petrenko's, but all that I have heard is excellent.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: The new erato on June 23, 2015, 02:43:52 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on June 23, 2015, 02:15:58 AM
Just wanted to post the deal on the Kitajenko cycle (19 euros) here as well in case anybody missed it in the bargain thread:


I din't miss it! It will join the Barshai, Kondrashin, Haitink and Janssons cycles on the shelf.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Moonfish on June 23, 2015, 02:51:17 AM
Quote from: The new erato on June 23, 2015, 02:43:52 AM
I din't miss it! It will join the Barshai, Kondrashin, Haitink and Janssons cycles on the shelf.

Ahh, the Kondrashin cycle is worth its weight in gold!  :'(     
Is the Rostropovich cycle any good compared to the Jansons or Barshai cycles?  :-\
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Madiel on June 23, 2015, 05:07:01 AM
I've been doing some sampling via iTunes.

Okay, Barshai is out of the running. Whether it's the recording or the performance, the other two sound far more atmospheric.

You're all just going to say I could always buy both... I must not cave to GMG philosophy!  ;) I even found a reviewer who said Jansons and Petrenko were the best two cycles in his opinion, and basically it was a toss-up between them.

It might just come down to availability and price. Really, both sound pretty good from these samples. I might do a more careful comparison on the weekend.

The very last thing I'm sampling is Petrenko's 14th, and it sounds fantastic.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles &amp; Otherwise
Post by: Ken B on June 23, 2015, 08:46:09 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 23, 2015, 02:30:00 AM
Personally, I find the Barshai set an overall disappointment compared to the Jansons, and I mean execution rather than sound quality.

I thought I was the only one.

If I were buying I'd snap up that Kitaenko SDCB.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on June 23, 2015, 09:43:39 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on June 23, 2015, 02:15:58 AM
Just wanted to post the deal on the Kitajenko cycle (19 euros) here as well in case anybody missed it in the bargain thread:

http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B001GZ011Q (http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B001GZ011Q)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71JvjWAEJdL._SL1223_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81CTqRp6rnL._SL1230_.jpg)

Thank you, I think  ;)  Just pulled the trigger on this;  for US$29, I really could not resist . . . though partly, the recent chat about the Barshai may have helped.  Long ago, 10-15 years probably, the Barshai set became available ridiculously cheap, $20 I think (might have been a BRO-specific deal).  Partly because I had never ordered anything online before, partly because (as one does at times) I doubted whether my own experience would necessarily match my friends' enthusiasm, I did not order the set . . . "It's not a bad price at all for the goods, but is it a set such that I will want to listen to it repeatedly?"

Anyway, as I remember holding back (and without regret, for I have had occasion to hear most of the set since) on the Barshai set at $20, I realize today that <$30 for the Kitaenko is a staggeringly good deal.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: kishnevi on June 24, 2015, 08:32:26 AM
Enough of us have ordered it that it is on back order.  Even for me, who first posted it! My copy is scheduled to ship the week of 7/6.

AboutBarshai...I thought it overall a very good set, albeit with one serious pratfall...the Eleventh managed to sound dull and boring.

My favorite is probably Kondrashin, even with the classic Melodiya sonics .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on June 24, 2015, 08:35:47 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 24, 2015, 08:32:26 AM
My favorite is probably Kondrashin, even with the classic Melodiya sonics .

Mine may well be (Minority Opinion Alert) the Maksim Dmitriyevich set.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Moonfish on June 24, 2015, 11:22:06 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 24, 2015, 08:32:26 AM
Enough of us have ordered it that it is on back order.  Even for me, who first posted it! My copy is scheduled to ship the week of 7/6.

AboutBarshai...I thought it overall a very good set, albeit with one serious pratfall...the Eleventh managed to sound dull and boring.

My favorite is probably Kondrashin, even with the classic Melodiya sonics .

I wish Kondrashin would be reissued....    :'(
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 24, 2015, 12:27:46 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 24, 2015, 08:32:26 AM
My favorite is probably Kondrashin, even with the classic Melodiya sonics .

I'm a Rozhdestvensky fan...even with the weird sonics.

Quote from: Moonfish on June 24, 2015, 11:22:06 AM
I wish Kondrashin would be reissued....    :'(

Rozh needs to be reissued too.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise SOLTI NO>9-CARNEGIE 'LIVE'
Post by: snyprrr on June 26, 2015, 04:16:27 PM
No.9, Solti: Carnegie 'live'


This really is a wonderful presentation and performance, with delicious timbres and fruity dispositions.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Madiel on July 09, 2015, 04:50:58 AM
I'm back to directly comparing Jansons and Petrenko, a movement/section at a time, using iTunes to sample (annoyingly, one of Janson's discs isn't on there but there's something on the record company website). Because of the way iTunes chooses what to present it usually means a very similar section of music in each recording.

I've tried the first 3 symphonies tonight (none of which I really know, I had a recording of either no.2 or no.3 years ago but barely listened), and yeah, I'm continuing to think I'd be quite happy with either of these. Occasionally Petrenko has the more dynamic recording, but then I get to some other section and Jansons shows plenty of fire.

I know what you're all going to say: get both.  :-\

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 09, 2015, 05:12:28 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 23, 2015, 09:43:39 AM
Thank you, I think  ;)  Just pulled the trigger on this;  for US$29, I really could not resist . . .

[snip]

Anyway, as I remember holding back (and without regret, for I have had occasion to hear most of the set since) on the Barshai set at $20, I realize today that <$30 for the Kitaenko is a staggeringly good deal.

The charge is being processed, so shipment must be imminent . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 10, 2015, 04:22:01 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 09, 2015, 05:12:28 AM
The charge is being processed, so shipment must be imminent . . . .

No, that "pending" charge has dropped off.

It's a good job I am in no hurry  8)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 13, 2015, 03:19:58 AM
QuoteNous vous informons que votre commande a été expédiée.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: kishnevi on July 13, 2015, 08:31:21 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 13, 2015, 03:19:58 AM


Then I can safely tell you that my copy was waiting for me at the post office this morning.  AmFrance said it would arrive on June 17, so hopefully your copy will be as expeditious as mine.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 13, 2015, 08:35:00 AM
Did you mean July 17, and it's early, or June 17, and it's dreadfully late?  (I'm counting on a typo!)

If I modify the estimated arrival of my copy similarly . . . I still have a wait of two weeks or so.

And I have things to listen to, the time will not go dully by  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: kishnevi on July 13, 2015, 09:03:52 AM
 
Quote from: karlhenning on July 13, 2015, 08:35:00 AM
Did you mean July 17, and it's early, or June 17, and it's dreadfully late?  (I'm counting on a typo!)

If I modify the estimated arrival of my copy similarly . . . I still have a wait of two weeks or so.

And I have things to listen to, the time will not go dully by  :)

:P

Typo it was.  It is at least four days early.   Two weeks in my experience is about as fast as one can expect from outre le mer,  but actually typical of Amazon France and Amazon UK
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: The new erato on July 13, 2015, 09:22:19 AM
July 17th for me as well.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 13, 2015, 09:23:27 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 13, 2015, 09:03:52 AM

:P

Typo it was.  It is at least four days early.   Two weeks in my experience is about as fast as one can expect from outre le mer,  but actually typical of Amazon France and Amazon UK

Cool!  The notice is actually dated Saturday the 11th, so I may hope for the 27th or 28th!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Mirror Image on July 13, 2015, 09:38:45 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 24, 2015, 12:27:46 PM

Rozh needs to be reissued too.

Sarge

Yes, I certainly agree. Rozhdestvensky's cycle is the only one I'm missing.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on August 13, 2015, 05:07:30 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 23, 2015, 09:43:39 AM
Thank you, I think  ;)  Just pulled the trigger on this;  for US$29, I really could not resist . . . though partly, the recent chat about the Barshai may have helped.  Long ago, 10-15 years probably, the Barshai set became available ridiculously cheap, $20 I think (might have been a BRO-specific deal).  Partly because I had never ordered anything online before, partly because (as one does at times) I doubted whether my own experience would necessarily match my friends' enthusiasm, I did not order the set . . . "It's not a bad price at all for the goods, but is it a set such that I will want to listen to it repeatedly?"

Anyway, as I remember holding back (and without regret, for I have had occasion to hear most of the set since) on the Barshai set at $20, I realize today that <$30 for the Kitaenko is a staggeringly good deal.

While I do not find myself even in thought disloyal to the Максим Дмитриевич set, the Дмитрий Георгиевич is shaping up to be The Best $30 Spent in 2015.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 02, 2016, 08:51:06 AM
Quote from: Conor248 on July 01, 2016, 10:00:12 PM
Wonderful work and I can understand you wanting to collect many versions of [the Op.43 c minor Symphony] - would be interested to know which performances you favour? :)

Perhaps you have similar experience ... I find much to enjoy and to applaud in almost every (maybe) recording I hear;  very few do I consider genuinely bad.

OTTOMH, though, five recordings which remain at or near the top of my preference:

1. Maksim Shostakovich, Prague Symphony
2. Jansons, Bavarian Radio Symphony
3. Haitink, CSO
4. Kondrashin, Staatskapelle Dresden
5. Caetani, Milano
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: André on July 02, 2016, 12:39:13 PM
Karl, is the Maxim cycle with the Prague Symphony worth the expenditure ? I mean, a great fourth does not necessarily make a great cycle. OTOH I'm a sucker for his 1970's russian Dad's 5th and for czech orchestral playing in general. Plus, the price is reasonable on Amazon.UK
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on July 02, 2016, 12:46:11 PM
The opinion here at GMG is divided, André, but I do think the entire cycle worthwhile, and worth the price.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Madiel on August 20, 2016, 06:35:48 AM
After telling Karl I wasn't that likely to post on this thread, here I am...

So it's taken me 7 months, but today I've finished listening to the Petrenko set.

[asin]B011A8X3B8[/asin]

I already knew symphonies 10 & 13 moderately well, I know I've heard a few more before at some point (2, 15, probably 5), but for around two-thirds I'd never heard them before except to the extent that I listened to samples while choosing which cycle to buy.

What's struck me the most is that the cycle is... people often say that it's uneven. I think a better description is it's incredibly diverse. Stylistically it is all over the place to a degree that's quite amazing given what I knew of Shostakovich before. A big part of that is chronology. Being mostly familiar with the string quartets and the op.87 preludes and fugues, I in fact had a notion of Shostakovich that was based on music from the mid-1940s onwards. The 1st string quartet is a small piece, and then the 2nd and 3rd quartets were composed just on either side of Symphony No.9.

There are things I've read about Shostakovich that make so much more sense now, with the symphonies but also the other music I listened to along the way (exploring all the opuses including what film music I could find). The effect of the condemnation he experienced in the mid-1930s is a lot clearer.

So, we've got a very impressive 1st symphony by a precocious youth. Which is followed by a 2nd and 3rd that aren't obviously in a symphonic mode and are quite avant-garde. I found the 2nd interesting, the 3rd though seemed fairly dire. Deliberately avoiding repetition does not make for a coherent structure...

Then the 4th is something completely different, a vast canvas that I honestly couldn't get much of a handle on. I want to revisit it, but not until I've got a firm grip on some others in the cycle.

And then symphonies 5 to 8 form a group, with a composer I start to recognise, tending towards austere and serious. I think I liked all of these, particularly the 7th, but I definitely want to get to know them all better. They're followed by the 9th which is a total delight and hard to group with its forebears just because it is so light.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Madiel on August 20, 2016, 06:37:13 AM
(Part 2)

Then there's a considerable gap to the 10th, a powerful work which I suspect I could relate to the 5-8 group but that's something I want to explore more. Then the 11th and 12th are something quite different again, a bit cinematic. I quite liked the 11th (the finale made a strong impression), the 12th was shorter but also blander.

The 13th is another change, a song cycle but to my mind undoubtedly a symphony as well. Petrenko's performance struck me as first class, better in some places than what I remember of my other recording by Previn though I haven't listened to it for quite a few years.

I had this idea in my head that the 13th and 14th would be similar because they're both vocal, but that was far from the case. The real successor to the 13th is The Execution of Stepan Razin, whereas the 14th is a work from Shostakovich's very late style, with sparse instrumentation. It's a very interesting work, not sure how "symphonic" it is, definitely feels more "song cycle" to me right now. Fantastic use of percussion.

And then the 15th. The booklet with the Petrenko cycle points out this is the first fairly regular instrumental symphonic plan since the 10th symphony, 18 years earlier. But by golly is it strange music filling that plan sometimes. THIS is what a genuine symphony in Shostakovich's late style sounds like. The use of percussion towards the end is extraordinary. I think it's great music, but it is so very different from the earlier symphonies.

So, within this "cycle" of 15 symphonies I feel like there's at least half a dozen quite different conceptions of what a "symphony" is. I can't help wondering how much of that is just what Shostakovich wanted to do, and how much of it was forced upon him as he navigated the incredibly tricky politics of being a national wunderkind / young provocateur / chastened and corrected artist / subverter of expectations / loyal generator of patriotic works / survivor into a more permissive age / older man who no longer gives a damn.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on August 20, 2016, 07:22:31 AM
Thanks for replying so readily!  I was particularly interested in your thoughts, both because you are a relative "newcomer" to the cycle as a whole, and because of your background as a Holmboe enthusiast.  It is especially gratifying to see the cycle characterized as diverse rather than uneven;  that is exactly in line with my own thought;  but then, as a dyed-in-the-wool fanboy, my opinion might have been discounted.

I am also pleased to find you are so engaged with the set, via the Petrenko recordings;  I do not yet know all them, but all that I have heard are very-good-to-excellent.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on August 20, 2016, 07:28:08 AM
Incidentally, so thoroughly positive an assessment is a pleasure to read, too, as a contrast to the essay in the Pelican history of The Symphony, which because it was published in 1967, is still thinking tight inside that box which was exported from Moscow . . . .
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on August 20, 2016, 08:01:48 AM
For Entertainment Purposes only, an early-ish bit from Robt Layton's essay on Shostakovich in The Symphony. (Is Layton using Sibelius to do to Shostakovich, what Leibowitz tried doing to Sibelius? You make the call.)

Quote from: Robt Layton... now, in the sixties, Shostakovich has emerged as a kind of symphonic father-figure and has almost (but not quite) come to occupy the pedestal from which Sibelius has just been toppled by the mighty young scholar-critics of the New Music Journalism.

There can, of course, be no serious contention that Shostakovich is of comparable stature, for Sibelius's roots go back to the classical symphony and his profoundly original sense of form and command of the processes of organic thinking betoken the great symphonist.  Moreover, the interest in Sibelius has never been of the merely topical kind which has befallen Shostakovich, largely because Finnish society differs less from our own than Russian.  In a sense much of the topical interest is justified, for Shostakovich is a documentary composer far more bound up with his time than, say, Miaskovsky, Prokofiev, or any other of his Soviet contemporaries.  In this lies both his strength and his weakness.  Even his most fanatical admirer will concede that only a handful of Shostakovich's works are independent of time in the sense that those of Sibelius and Debussy are.

The essay (in vol. 1 of the Pelican history) on Beethoven I have found difficult to read because of the liberal unction.  I have no objection to the essayist writing from the standpoint that Beethoven is the world's greatest symphonist:  I only desire him to discuss the music, and not rely on the basking light of the halo.  Here Layton commits an equal-and-opposite error of viewpoint.  In both cases, the writers simply reflect the consensus of their time.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Madiel on August 20, 2016, 08:12:47 AM
If there's one thing that's become abundantly clear from reading about some of the symphonies and other works along the way, it's that views of Shostakovich are far more affected by notions of the times/country he lived in than just about any other significant composer.

Which is understandable, but also a bit frustrating.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on August 20, 2016, 09:22:39 AM
Quote from: orfeo on August 20, 2016, 08:12:47 AM
If there's one thing that's become abundantly clear from reading about some of the symphonies and other works along the way, it's that views of Shostakovich are far more affected by notions of the times/country he lived in than just about any other significant composer.

Which is understandable, but also a bit frustrating.

Yes! The writers are fogbound, complaining about how limited the composer was ....

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Title: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on August 20, 2016, 09:26:57 AM
Parenthetically, a couple of essays later, Robert Layton writes very sympathetically of the symphonies of Holmboe.

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Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on August 20, 2016, 03:24:02 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 13, 2015, 05:07:30 AM
While I do not find myself even in thought disloyal to the Максим Дмитриевич set, the Дмитрий Георгиевич is shaping up to be The Best $30 Spent in 2015.

A long time ago, I see, my survey was interrupted.  I have only today completed my reverse-chronological-order survey of the Дмитрий Георгиевич box, and it is splendidly good.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Madiel on August 20, 2016, 03:53:52 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 20, 2016, 09:26:57 AM
Parenthetically, a couple of essays later, Robert Layton writes very sympathetically of the symphonies of Holmboe.

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If one likes certain aspects of Sibelius, one is likely to enjoy Holmboe for similar reasons. That was in fact the route I took.

On one level I can understand why Shostakovich would not rank as highly as a "symphonic" composer. He's not always going down the route of developing motivic cells in the Classical way. But then, I suspect many of the Romantic composers weren't either, it's just that not that many of them dared to write things they called symphonies.

And Shostakovich was clearly capable of that kind of writing when he wanted it. There are a some very clear sonata forms in the string quartet cycle and I'm sure I'll spot them in the symphonies as well once I know them (certainly, the Naxos notes point some out).
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on August 20, 2016, 04:21:43 PM
While it must be true that there were critics at the time who might have furnished an essay even less favorable to Shostakovich, I find myself disappointed in Layton's Oh, all right, I'll write the essay on Shostakovich, but he's no Sibelius angle.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Scion7 on August 20, 2016, 09:42:32 PM
I would say that the symphonies of Shosty are both diverse AND uneven - not every one was a winner. IMO the last truly great one was No.10.  He was the subject of a 400-level paper I wrote in college that I worked on many months just to get it down to 32 pages.  So you know I love his work.  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Madiel on August 21, 2016, 12:29:50 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on August 20, 2016, 09:42:32 PM
IMO the last truly great one was No.10.

There's a great animated eyebrow-raising smiley I know from another forum. I would be using it now.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on August 21, 2016, 02:45:22 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 20, 2016, 04:21:43 PM
While it must be true that there were critics at the time who might have furnished an essay even less favorable to Shostakovich, I find myself disappointed in Layton's Oh, all right, I'll write the essay on Shostakovich, but he's no Sibelius angle.
And yet Robert Layton wrote one of the best booklet notes I have read for the EMI recording of Shostakovich's 8th Symphony, LSO, Previn. On the other hand he is largely to blame for the perpetuation of the 'rampant self-pity' approach to the music of Allan Pettersson.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Christo on August 21, 2016, 04:33:37 AM
Quote from: orfeo on August 20, 2016, 03:53:52 PMIf one likes certain aspects of Sibelius, one is likely to enjoy Holmboe for similar reasons. That was in fact the route I took.

I made a similar choice, especially after reading all these influential essays from Robert Simpson's guide (Simpson more or less defines the symphony in his Introduction in the Sibelian sense) 'The Symphony'  tome 2: Elgar to the Present Day' around 1982. It took me many years to accept the Mahlerian concept of the symphony ('embracing everything', as he allegedly stated in his meeting with Sibelius) when I finally succumbed to those of Shostakovich first, and Mahler himself only after that.

Before, it was Vaughan Williams (instead of Sibelius) who showed me the way and for long I had a strong preference for composers like Nielsen, Holmboe, Tubin, Honegger, who all fit in the more 'concentrated, essayistic' model: a 'severe form' and 'profound logic creating an inner connection among all of the motives',  as Sibelius answered Mahler.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Madiel on August 21, 2016, 05:00:17 AM
Indeed I very nearly said something about Shostakovich being more in the Mahler mould. The main reason I didn't is because I still don't know most of Mahler's symphonies.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: amw on August 21, 2016, 06:10:04 AM
Shostakovich was heavily influenced by Mahler and is known to have admired his music greatly so yes.

I wouldn't say their music is very similar for the mooooooost part but the adagio of Mahler's 10th does lay the groundwork for a lot of Shostakovich's music tbh. Shostakovich's style is radically simplified from Mahler's though, partly because he worked so quickly, and partly because he worked so differently. (Shostakovich's "sketches" are typically reduced versions of the finished product; he almost seems to have simply transcribed compositions that came to him fully-formed in his head, if I truly believed any composer actually worked that way. Mahler worked things out in much more detail on the page.) Also, obviously, Shostakovich's music is much more modernist in many respects, because he...... lived...... at a later time........
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on August 21, 2016, 06:22:50 AM
Quote from: Christo on August 21, 2016, 04:33:37 AM
I made a similar choice, especially after reading all these influential essays from Robert Simpson's guide (Simpson more or less defines the symphony in his Introduction in the Sibelian sense) 'The Symphony'  tome 2: Elgar to the Present Day' around 1982. It took me many years to accept the Mahlerian concept of the symphony ('embracing everything', as he allegedly stated in his meeting with Sibelius) when I finally succumbed to those of Shostakovich first, and Mahler himself only after that.

The key, I think, is more or less defines.  When the two-volume The Symphony first landed in my mailbox, I read the intro to Vol. 2 (subheaded Stravinsky, Hindemith and others), in which Simpson defines his terms, so to speak, for purposes of editing the compilation of essays.  As with so many aspects of music, I find such definitions useful as springboards for discussion, but rather noisome as The Rules.  On one hand, an editor needs to set boundaries, sure.  On the other, the first movement of the Symphony Mathis der Maler is quite a clear sonata-allegro . . . and it begins to seem arbitrary, which Liszt passes the bar for Vol. 1 with only two works under discussion (both of which are creative stretches of what we mean by symphony), but Hindemith (e.g.) does not.

I am really just hopping around The Symphony, and finding it mixed, but generally very engaging (even when, as in Layton's half-hearted Shostakovich survey, I consider the approach somewhat wrong-headed).  I am certainly pleased that Hans Keller so perceptively endorses Tchaikovsky in, essentially, all the symphonies . . . and I wish that there had been someone of Keller's mindset to weigh in on Shostakovich.

Quote from: Hans KellerThe Fourth Symphony is, in my opinion, the greatest — and its first movement is the most complex and innovatory of the four.  The work dates from the most critical year of Tchaikovsky's life, the time of his abortive marriage, his attempted suicide, and his separation;  but also the time of the beginning of his extraordinary friendship — they never met face to face — with his rich patroness, Nadezhda von Meck.  To her inspiring influence we owe much that is profoundest in this music, but we also owe her the profoundest artistic mistake Tchaikovsky ever made:  unfortunately, he acceded to her request to provide 'a programme' of the symphony.  The result has proved noxious ever since.  On the one hand, that is to say, almost every writer on the work has welcomed the opportunity of copying this alleged programme instead of concerning himself with one of the most towering symphonic structures in our whole literature.  On the other hand, Tchaikovsky's strictly private literary attempt has been thrown back at him by sundry anti-romantic, emotion-fearing neurotics.  It would not, of course, be fair to include Alfred Einstein in this category, but the fact remains that he did allow himself  to participate in our age's collective neurosis when he remarked, in his Music in the Romantic Era, that Tchaikovsky 'filled his purely instrumental music to the brim with a programme of feeling'.  (As if feeling needed a programme — a typically contemporary fallacy!)  Einstein proceeded to quote the entire 'programme' of the fourth symphony, concluding that 'Tchaikovsky let himself be led in his creative work by melodramatic and sentimental programmes such as this . . .'  It is demonstrable that Einstein, a conscientious musicologist if ever there was one, was here inspired by a neurotic illusion — the simple fact being that Tchaikovsky never thought of the programme until he was asked for it after the event.  In the same letter to Mme. von Meck, moreover, he points out that 'by its very nature', instrumental music 'does not submit to the kind of interpretation' he himself has just given her.  Finally, in a somewhat despairing P.S., he adds:  'This is the first time in my life I have tried to transpose ideas and images into words [not, mind you, verbal ideas into music], and I have certainly not been successful.'  Far more pertinent to the spirit of this symphony is a letter he wrote to Taneyev some years later:  'It is a thousand times pleasanter to write without a programme.  In writing a programme symphony I feel as if I were a charlatan, cheating the public by giving it worthless paper instead of gold coin.'  And again to Balakirev:  'This is the real truth:  generally speaking I don't like my own programme music, as I've already told you.  I feel infinitely freer in the sphere of pure symphony . . . .'  The Fourth is a pure symphony.

I've quoted that at length, because it seems to me that Layton willingly falls into a similar error, in his downgrade of the Shostakovich Eighth, e.g.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on August 21, 2016, 11:40:15 AM
'Despite its tranquility,however, the overall impression left by the Eighth Symphony is one of profound pessimism shot through with an abundant compassion for the appalling suffering for war-torn humanity.'

(From the end of Robert Layton's booklet note for the Previn LSO recording of Shostakovich's Eighth Symphony). I've always liked this analysis.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on August 21, 2016, 04:12:39 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 21, 2016, 11:40:15 AM
'Despite its tranquility,however, the overall impression left by the Eighth Symphony is one of profound pessimism shot through with an abundant compassion for the appalling suffering for war-torn humanity.'

(From the end of Robert Layton's booklet note for the Previn LSO recording of Shostakovich's Eighth Symphony).mive always liked this analysis.

When did he write those notes, Jeffrey?

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Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: André on August 21, 2016, 05:11:06 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 21, 2016, 02:45:22 AM
And yet Robert Layton wrote one of the best booklet notes I have read for the EMI recording of Shostakovich's 8th Symphony, LSO, Previn. On the other hand he is largely to blame for the perpetuation of the 'rampant self-pity' approach to the music of Allan Pettersson.

As Pettersson lovers know, 'self-pity' is a blatant misinterpretation of the composer's musical thought and its translation into musical language. Rarely has an important composer been so misunderstood as Pettersson. A musical alien, nothing less.

Before him, that role was ascribed to Shostakovich, if not for his eclecticism, at least for his apparent intellectual/political circumventilations - as if one knew these days what the political climate of the 30s to 50s could bring about on an artist's motivations.

Back to DSCH: he was no Beethoven, but no R. Strauss either (the unbending vs. the great bender). As Orfeo mentions, the times/country were such that an artist in his day and country could not produce an oeuvre as singular, diverse and honest as his.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on August 21, 2016, 05:21:55 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 21, 2016, 04:12:39 PM
When did he write those notes, Jeffrey?

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Wondering whether his opinion of the piece improved, or if he held back for that request for notes.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on August 22, 2016, 03:01:43 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 21, 2016, 04:12:39 PM
When did he write those notes, Jeffrey?

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1973 Karl. For original LP release.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on August 22, 2016, 03:02:48 AM
Quote from: André on August 21, 2016, 05:11:06 PM
As Pettersson lovers know, 'self-pity' is a blatant misinterpretation of the composer's musical thought and its translation into musical language. Rarely has an important composer been so misunderstood as Pettersson. A musical alien, nothing less.

Before him, that role was ascribed to Shostakovich, if not for his eclecticism, at least for his apparent intellectual/political circumventilations - as if one knew these days what the political climate of the 30s to 50s could bring about on an artist's motivations.

Back to DSCH: he was no Beethoven, but no R. Strauss either (the unbending vs. the great bender). As Orfeo mentions, the times/country were such that an artist in his day and country could not produce an oeuvre as singular, diverse and honest as his.
Totally agree with this.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on August 22, 2016, 04:02:22 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 22, 2016, 03:01:43 AM
1973 Karl. For original LP release.

So possibly a little later, if his Shostakovich essay in The Symphony appeared as is on initial publication in 1967.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Christo on August 22, 2016, 04:07:38 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 22, 2016, 04:02:22 AMSo possibly a little later, if his Shostakovich essay in The Symphony appeared as is on initial publication in 1967.

I completely missed the presumed negativity in the original essay; have to re-read it to see what you're all referring at; speaking for myself, it helped me 'discover' Shosty's symphonies.  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on August 22, 2016, 04:22:39 AM
Quote from: Christo on August 22, 2016, 04:07:38 AM
I completely missed the presumed negativity in the original essay; have to re-read it to see what you're all referring at; speaking for myself, it helped me 'discover' Shosty's symphonies.  :)

Do!

An essay which pretty much opens with (I've left the book home, so I paraphrase) there can be no question that Shostakovich is as great a symphonist as Sibelius (the best that can be said of which is, that it is a snide assertion) does not much invite me to give the author any slack (and, of course, I am as keen an admirer of Sibelius as nearly anyone).  I very nearly quoted the paragraph about the Eighth, only I got tired of typing yesterday  ;)   . . . but the salient points are (1) Layton doesn't think it one of Shostakovich's best symphonies (or, he does, but he doesn't think much of it, anyway), and (2) how could it be, when it is not designed as a composition, but is just an anti-war poster.

This is why I quoted Keller's intelligently thorough dismantling of the "dismissal" of Tchaikovsky's Fourth, on the fallacy that the after-the-fact program which Mme. von Meck teased out of the composer was somehow a "blueprint."  Layton doesn't appreciate the musical fabric of the Shostakovich Eighth, but substitutes discussion of the character of the music as a response to the war, as if (a) that is enough, and (b) the way he perceives it all will serve as a referent.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Heck148 on August 22, 2016, 05:46:03 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 21, 2016, 11:40:15 AM
'Despite its tranquility,however, the overall impression left by the Eighth Symphony is one of profound pessimism shot through with an abundant compassion for the appalling suffering for war-torn humanity.'
(From the end of Robert Layton's booklet note for the Previn LSO recording of Shostakovich's Eighth Symphony).

Hmmm..I don't find much "tranquility" in Shostakovich Sym #8...it is dark, stormy, violent [esp inner mvts], brooding...this is not the glorious triumph of the 7th symphony...but rather the terrible destruction and chaos caused by total war...an entire nation bull-dozed and ravaged by violent war.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on August 23, 2016, 05:21:39 AM
In my own gradual evolution w/r/t the Shostakovich symphonies, the last two to which I was reconciled were the Eleventh and the Twelfth.  (Maybe it seems strange that I came to appreciate the Second and the Third before these.  But that was driven to a great extent by these scores dating from before l'affaire Pravda;  we have a finite number of pieces which the composer wrote when he was artistically and mentally free from considerations which after "Muddle Instead of Music" were absolutely unavoidable.  Part of the virtue of the Opp. 14 & 20, as I see it, is we have musical snapshots of the assured young composer, when he could still do as he pleased, and feel "to hell with any critic.")

Worth pointing out that, musically, I "grew up" in an environment where the general disdain for Shostakovich's music as a whole (perhaps marginally offset by grudging appreciation of this or that "exceptional" singleton work – the Piano Quintet, say, or the Fifth Symphony) as typified by Layton's essay in The Symphony was the institutional norm, but where this sleepy orthodoxy was resisted by a number of individuals, a resistance which had not yet coalesced into any musicological counter-insurgency.  Thus it was that (for instance) my conducting instructor at Wooster indirectly taught me to love the Thirteenth SymphonySimon Rattle led the Cleveland Orchestra in the Tenth, which was one of those life-changing musical experiences;  and I discovered the Fourteenth Symphony on my own initiative.

Still, at that comparatively early age, by perhaps a combination of the institutional prejudice having seeped in at partial unawares, and (what is the classic challenge in the case of Haydn, e.g.) the natural difficulty of coming to grips with a large and diverse œuvre, I was slow to listen to a number of the symphonies with an open mind.

So that at one point, even while I admired and enjoyed the variety over the course of the symphonies – the austere economies of the Fifth Symphony, the monumental somber tread of the Eighth, the mercurial gaiety of the Ninth, the wry song-cycle of the Fourteenth – I nevertheless "objected" to the Eleventh as something essentially unlike any of the other symphonies, for instance.  And I certainly took more or less as read that the Eleventh and Twelfth were inconsiderable "quasi-cinema" symphonies.  (I know some folks use "movie music" as praise, but half the time it strikes me as code for "there isn't enough musical logic in the piece itself.")

Thus, at the point where I very much liked 13 out of the 15 symphonies, anyway, the catalyst for changing my mind towards the Eleventh was, of course, the personal experience of a friend – and, a musical friend, one who has commissioned a few works from me – who had heard the San Diego Symphony play the piece live.  It was the point at which I understood that I was being musically lazy, that I was dismissing (failing to listen attentively, and in fairness, to) the Eleventh simply because that was the attitude towards the piece in four or eight written sources which were my first indirect "knowledge" of the piece.  (And I knew, for instance, that this was my exact and personal complaint with Harlow Robinson in the case of three or six Prokofiev scores:  a critic who simply failed to appreciate the merits of a score, routinely refreshing "the conventional wisdom" that the piece was inferior.)  Shostakovich handles the musical scale (I mean, scope, not do-re-mi) and process in a different way than his other symphonies, and in a way which feels entirely and strikingly new;  and I had been slow to credit that.

I won't go on to bore anyone here.  The reason I am posting is, that last night I listened again to the Twelfth, and my opinion about the piece has ratcheted up a few notches.  The superficial differences between the Eleventh and Twelfth have always been obvious, so that my reconcilement to the Op.103 did not necessarily transfer to the Op.112.  I suddenly realized last night as I was listening to the first movement, how much it felt like Shostakovich writing a symphony movement, as if it were the Festive Overture.  (And as a result, I began thoroughly to enjoy what he was doing with the material, with the form, with the scoring.)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Madiel on August 23, 2016, 06:41:09 AM
If there's one concern I have about the 8th right now (and by extension, much of the cycle), it's a concern about works traversing very similar emotional territory repeatedly.

The very start of the 8th is extremely reminiscent of the start of the 5th. Turns out the Petrenko cycle notes make the connection between the opening movements, which I hadn't re-read when listening to the 8th earlier today, so I'm not going out on a crazy limb here.

There are of course deviations between the two works, but there are also an uncomfortable number of similarities. And while I can't recall clearly all the other symphonies right now, not knowing them well enough, how many am I going to find with a big slowish bleakish 1st movement? The same kind of relentless or marching scherzo (heck, the 8th gives me two of those in a row!)? How many times before it comes a limiting trope?

I know, Haydn produced quite a similar kind of opening movement more times than Shostakovich wrote symphonies. But they're entertaining and less than half the length. Somehow it's more noticeable when you're being asked to endure 20 minutes of pain each time.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on August 23, 2016, 07:09:33 AM
Quote from: orfeo on August 23, 2016, 06:41:09 AM
If there's one concern I have about the 8th right now (and by extension, much of the cycle), it's a concern about works traversing very similar emotional territory repeatedly.

The very start of the 8th is extremely reminiscent of the start of the 5th.

That was the first thing which struck me, the first time I heard the Eighth, too.

Similarly, the first time I listened to the Fourth, at the end, I almost remembered nothing about the piece, except that the trio section of the middle-movement scherzo was obviously similar to a poignant tune in the Fifth (a piece with which, by then, I was very familiar, indeed).

The common thread?  Two hour-long-plus symphonies, rich in detail, and I found that my ear was "drinking from a firehose," and had naturally picked out what was already familiar.

Shostakovich wrote a great deal, and with fluent ease.  The Case Against says, he was able to write that much, because he simply repeated himself on several occasions.

My opinion is based on, to take one example, the tune which is shared by the Fourth and Fifth Symphonies, and furthermore with one of the Pushkin Romances, Op.46.  It is recognizably the same musical object. (And in fact, Shostakovich's friend Sollertinsky, indignant at the forced shelving of the magnificent Fourth, wrote bitterly of the Fifth being 'cobbled together from broken shards of the Fourth' ... I do not remember the quote properly.)  But where Shostakovich is artful, and self-aware, and making something of a private game with the sympathetic listener (as I see it) is, it is an object re-contextualized:  it sounds a bit different, means something a little different, at that formal point, in that particular piece.  Just the same notion, I think, as with his use of his musical monogram;  and as with the "percolating percussion" riff which is shared between the Fourth Symphony, the Fifteenth, and the (second? I should chide myself for not being certain) Cello Concerto.

Now, I could almost see someone mounting a reasonable counter-argument with the dotted string-choir figure which links the Fifth and Eighth Symphonies.  For me, though, once I knew the Eighth as a whole better, the distinctions meant more than the initial similarities.

But looking back on my own listening history, I sympathize completely with your questioning.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Madiel on August 23, 2016, 05:56:55 PM
There are two problems with focusing on the date of the symphony.

One is that it doesn't explain why other wartime symphonies don't sound quite the same.

The other more serious problem is that it doesn't explain why symphonies written at other times sound similar. Saying "it's 1943, what else could he write?" isn't a great answer to the concern that he is producing a repeat of 1937.

Anyway, I suspect it's simply that I don't find the 8th sufficiently engaging, perhaps in part due to the extra length. I'm listening to the 10th at the moment and while the stylistic similarities are again quite clear, in Petrenko's hands the 10th is gripping and I'm not feeling as if the 5th is being rerun again.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on August 24, 2016, 01:33:11 AM
The composer was a more private person than the Moscow publicists' use of his work would lead us to believe;  we have scarcely any genuinely reliable instances of the composer saying "this is what this piece means," but instead a very practical (usually tacet) 'acknowledgement' of what was put on his plate.  (Neither the "Soviet artist's reply to just criticism" subtitle for the Op.47 nor the Stalingrad schematic for the Op.65 originated from the composer.)   And his internal discipline worked at the music with a disregard for external calamities which those close to him found surprising.

He was working on the a minor violin concert at the time of the 1948 Congress.  That was the time of the Zhdanov Decree, one of the signal humiliations of his life (and one big reason why he did not elect to write another symphony until Stalin was dead).

Quote from: Mikhail MeyerovichIn 1948, when the 'historical' Zhdanov Decree was published, he was working on his Violin Concerto.  When the Concerto was finished he played it on the piano for me and for some other composers.  I asked him, 'At which point were you exactly in the score when the Decree was published?'  He showed me the exact spot.  The violin played semiquavers before and after it.  There was no change evident in the music. [Shostakovich: A Life Remembered, p.220]
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: jlaurson on August 24, 2016, 03:07:46 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 24, 2016, 01:33:11 AM
The composer was a more private person than the Moscow publicists' use of his work would lead us to believe;  we have scarcely any genuinely reliable instances of the composer saying "this is what this piece means," but instead a very practical (usually tacet) 'acknowledgement' of what was put on his plate.  (Neither the "Soviet artist's reply to just criticism" subtitle for the Op.47 nor the Stalingrad schematic for the Op.65 originated from the composer.)   And his internal discipline worked at the music with a disregard for external calamities which those close to him found surprising.

He was working on the a minor violin concert at the time of the 1948 Congress.  That was the time of the Zhdanov Decree, one of the signal humiliations of his life (and one big reason why he did not elect to write another symphony until Stalin was dead).

Funny enough, I just read (wrote) about that VC, recently... but only very cursory since it's really about DSCH-VC-2:
Quote...But Shostakovich wrote his Violin Concerto No.1 for the drawer in 1947. After the first denunciation in 1936 (the Lady Macbeth affair, "Muddle instead of Music"), the climate was tense for Shostakovich and he wisely shelved his grandly vicious Fourth Symphony. In 1948 the second round of attacks on composers was launched by Stalin, and Shostakovich held back not only with the Fourth Symphony (finally premiered in 1961) but also the First Violin Concerto (which his friend and chamber music buddy David Oistrakh premiered in 1955), the Fourth String Quartet, the song cycle From Jewish Folk Poetry, and other works that might have signaled trouble. When he turned to the concerto form for the last time, in 1967, it was again David Oistrakh for whom he wrote.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on August 24, 2016, 03:14:10 AM
Synchronicity!  8)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Mirror Image on November 27, 2016, 09:45:58 AM
I'd argue that, so far, Rozhdestvensky's USSR Ministry of Culture Symphony cycle on Melodiya is shaping up to be my go-to Shostakovich for these works. Of course, I haven't heard everything from his set as I just acquired it a few days ago, but so far I've heard his 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 9th, and 11th. Extremely compelling performances that seem to be able to probe not only the emotional depths of these works, but also maintain an uncanny sense of architecture, but also the lyrical aspects that each of these symphonies contain. His approach is in direct contrast with the Petrenko set that I've been also listening to, but I believe I understand where Wanderer is coming from in his comments about Petrenko, but this doesn't necessarily diminish my overall impressions that I believe Petrenko is a good conductor, I just think he is a bit 'too smooth' and could stand with a bit more bite, especially when talking about those more violent moments like in the second movement, The Ninth of January, in the 11th. Anyway, just a few thoughts I thought I'd share with everyone who is currently looking, and deciding, on a Shostakovich set to acquire. The unfortunate part of my strong recommendation for Rozhdestvensky is the fact that his set is incredibly rare and hard-to-find. I do hope the heads at Melodiya wise up and reissue this set as it's in dire need of it.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: aukhawk on November 27, 2016, 10:26:08 AM
I remember I saw Rozhdestvensky with the Leningrad PO in London back in the '70s.  The orchestra were drilled to within an inch of their lives (the violin section completely as one, like clones, and even when laying out for a long period, sitting at alerto with the bows hovering ready over their strings) - very Soviet-like - but the conductor by contrast was a real flamboyant showman - most un-Soviet-like - and really milked the applause at the end by leaping up onto the podium with his arms thrown wide!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Mirror Image on November 27, 2016, 10:40:07 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on November 27, 2016, 10:26:08 AM
I remember I saw Rozhdestvensky with the Leningrad PO in London back in the '70s.  The orchestra were drilled to within an inch of their lives (the violin section completely as one, like clones, and even when laying out for a long period, sitting at alerto with the bows hovering ready over their strings) - very Soviet-like - but the conductor by contrast was a real flamboyant showman - most un-Soviet-like - and really miked the applause at the end by leaping up onto the podium with his arms thrown wide!

Very nice story. I'd love to have seen that concert. But the questions I have is did you enjoy the performance? Do you remember what the program was?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: aukhawk on November 27, 2016, 11:21:21 PM
Oh yes it was a real thrill to see and hear the Leningrad PO in action, they were a top band at that time.  Rozhdestvensky himself was an impish little man with a frantic arm-waving style.  I can't be sure but I think it must have been Tchaikovsky, the 4th Symphony - is that  the one where the strings don't have much to do for a whole movement?  I have this memory of them all sitting there at the ready, bows set, for several minutes on end - quite remarkable.  The orchestral equivalent of soldiers being made to march the goose step.

I've probably only attended about 6 orchestral concerts in all my long life, so each one is memorable.  (I prefer listening to recordings.)  Probably the best of all was Kurt Sanderling conducting my local band, the BBC Phil - Shostakovich Symphony 15 - spellbinding last movement, audience holding their breath.  It was Sanderling, I think, who really brought the BBC's 'second' orchestra, the Philharmonic, up to a new high standard.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Jo498 on November 28, 2016, 01:26:23 AM
If one does not insist on completeness, I think some of the Rozhdestvensky is easier to find as BMG/Melodiya twofers and singles. I have 1, 4-9,11 and 13 from that set without really systematically searching for them, just occasions on ebay and elsewhere.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Mirror Image on November 28, 2016, 07:14:47 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on November 27, 2016, 11:21:21 PM
Oh yes it was a real thrill to see and hear the Leningrad PO in action, they were a top band at that time.  Rozhdestvensky himself was an impish little man with a frantic arm-waving style.  I can't be sure but I think it must have been Tchaikovsky, the 4th Symphony - is that  the one where the strings don't have much to do for a whole movement?  I have this memory of them all sitting there at the ready, bows set, for several minutes on end - quite remarkable.  The orchestral equivalent of soldiers being made to march the goose step.

I've probably only attended about 6 orchestral concerts in all my long life, so each one is memorable.  (I prefer listening to recordings.)  Probably the best of all was Kurt Sanderling conducting my local band, the BBC Phil - Shostakovich Symphony 15 - spellbinding last movement, audience holding their breath.  It was Sanderling, I think, who really brought the BBC's 'second' orchestra, the Philharmonic, up to a new high standard.

Excellent. I'm jealous, especially of that Kurt Sanderling performance!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Mirror Image on November 28, 2016, 10:19:26 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 28, 2016, 01:26:23 AM
If one does not insist on completeness, I think some of the Rozhdestvensky is easier to find as BMG/Melodiya twofers and singles. I have 1, 4-9,11 and 13 from that set without really systematically searching for them, just occasions on ebay and elsewhere.

You could probably find them all if you really searched for them, but given their rarity, it would be a costly affair. I paid an arm and a leg for the complete set trust me, but I figured that by the time I bought them all individually, I didn't come out that badly in the end.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 28, 2016, 11:06:20 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 28, 2016, 10:19:26 AM
You could probably find them all if you really searched for them, but given their rarity, it would be a costly affair. I paid an arm and a leg for the complete set trust me, but I figured that by the time I bought them all individually, I didn't come out that badly in the end.

Roz's is one of my favorite cycles too although I haven't completed it yet. I've been collecting the individual CDs since the 90s. Have 4-10, 12, 14 and 15. Especially love his 4 and 15.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Jo498 on November 28, 2016, 12:23:31 PM
But the complete set seems even rarer!
Some of the singles are quite expensive, but others are not browsing amazon.de I think one could cobble together the set with the twofers and some singles for around 100-120 Euros. Maybe I should sell some of mine if the price is right... (I have twofers with 1,5,6,9 and 7+8 and singles of 4,11,13)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Mirror Image on November 28, 2016, 12:52:26 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 28, 2016, 11:06:20 AM
Roz's is one of my favorite cycles too although I haven't completed it yet. I've been collecting the individual CDs since the 90s. Have 4-10, 12, 14 and 15. Especially love his 4 and 15.

Sarge

His 4th is AMAZING. But I was equally impressed with everything I've heard from his cycle so far, which now includes 1-6, 9, and 11. I'm going to check out his Leningrad later on tonight. Okay, you're only missing 1-3 and 13. You don't have much more to go!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Mirror Image on November 28, 2016, 12:59:55 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 28, 2016, 12:23:31 PM
But the complete set seems even rarer!
Some of the singles are quite expensive, but others are not browsing amazon.de I think one could cobble together the set with the twofers and some singles for around 100-120 Euros. Maybe I should sell some of mine if the price is right... (I have twofers with 1,5,6,9 and 7+8 and singles of 4,11,13)

Yes, the complete set is incredibly hard to find now, but after doing some digging via Amazon DE, Amazon US, Amazon UK, and eBay, I've come to the following conclusion that it's an expensive series no matter how you collect it given it's apparent scarcity. I was certainly fortunate enough to run across a copy of the complete set, so, even at hefty price tag, I snagged it.

By the way, those Melodiya twofers are NOT cheap and I was browsing through the single issues on Olympia and those aren't much better.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: bluto32 on February 24, 2018, 11:14:23 AM
This thread has been an interesting read and convinced me to purchase a budget cycle. I have listened to numbers 5 and 8 a few times and enjoy them enormously; 7 and 10 are growing on me. I don't (or hardly) know any of the others. I am considering one of these budget cycles:
Haitink was in the running, but I would prefer not to duplicate the few symphonies I already have by him separately (1&5 and 8, on Decca Virtuoso).

My main considerations are:
If you own two or more of these cycles, what would your advice be based on the above?
Bluto
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Baron Scarpia on February 24, 2018, 11:55:36 AM
Quote from: bluto32 on February 24, 2018, 11:14:23 AM
This thread has been an interesting read and convinced me to purchase a budget cycle. I have listened to numbers 5 and 8 a few times and enjoy them enormously; 7 and 10 are growing on me. I don't (or hardly) know any of the others. I am considering one of these budget cycles:

  • Petrenko (RLPO, Naxos)
  • Barshai (WDR, Brilliant Classics)
  • Jansons (Various, Warner/EMI)
Haitink was in the running, but I would prefer not to duplicate the few symphonies I already have by him separately (1&5 and 8, on Decca Virtuoso).

My main considerations are:

  • Faithful to the score rather than individualistic interpretations
  • Good sound quality (I understand they are all good, although perhaps Petrenko is best overall being so recent? And with the Jansons set being recorded over so many years with so many (8?) orchestras - is the sound uneven?)
  • A sensible dynamic range (i.e. not having to change the volume during a particular symphony because the FFF annoys the neighbours but then ppp is inaudible...)
If you own two or more of these cycles, what would your advice be based on the above?
Bluto

There is also Rostropovich, which I recently acquired but haven't listened to yet.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Daverz on February 24, 2018, 12:33:05 PM
I'd add the Kitajenko set to the list:

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/7941916--shostakovich-symphonies-nos-1-15-complete
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Dimitri-Schostakowitsch-1906-1975-Symphonien-Nr-1-15/hnum/5849111

[asin] B0009GV1Z8[/asin]
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 25, 2018, 10:06:58 AM
Quote from: bluto32 on February 24, 2018, 11:14:23 AM
....(I understand they are all good, although perhaps Petrenko is best overall being so recent?....)

Actually, Barshai's is the best sonically (great performances, too). It's the hall that does it. The Philharmonie, Köln is a stunner acoustically, very "open", bringing out the burnished sound of the orchestra wonderfully. Obviously the technical team knew its stuff, too.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: André on February 25, 2018, 03:19:01 PM
I've beeen to the Phiharmonie twice and it is indeed an excellent hall. There are acoustic differences from one area to the other, but the sound is never less than excellent whatever the seat.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on February 26, 2018, 01:20:12 AM
Quote from: Daverz on February 24, 2018, 12:33:05 PM
I'd add the Kitajenko set to the list:

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/7941916--shostakovich-symphonies-nos-1-15-complete
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Dimitri-Schostakowitsch-1906-1975-Symphonien-Nr-1-15/hnum/5849111

[asin] B0009GV1Z8[/asin]


Aye, a beauty.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: bluto32 on March 04, 2018, 02:23:27 PM
Thanks for the replies. Decisions, decisions... I shall compare sound clips at the usual sources.
Bluto
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on March 04, 2018, 02:57:04 PM
Quote from: bluto32 on February 24, 2018, 11:14:23 AM
This thread has been an interesting read and convinced me to purchase a budget cycle. I have listened to numbers 5 and 8 a few times and enjoy them enormously; 7 and 10 are growing on me. I don't (or hardly) know any of the others. I am considering one of these budget cycles:

  • Petrenko (RLPO, Naxos)
  • Barshai (WDR, Brilliant Classics)
  • Jansons (Various, Warner/EMI)
Haitink was in the running, but I would prefer not to duplicate the few symphonies I already have by him separately (1&5 and 8, on Decca Virtuoso).

My main considerations are:

  • Faithful to the score rather than individualistic interpretations
  • Good sound quality (I understand they are all good, although perhaps Petrenko is best overall being so recent? And with the Jansons set being recorded over so many years with so many (8?) orchestras - is the sound uneven?)
  • A sensible dynamic range (i.e. not having to change the volume during a particular symphony because the FFF annoys the neighbours but then ppp is inaudible...)
If you own two or more of these cycles, what would your advice be based on the above?
Bluto
I own the Barshai, Jansons and Haitink sets plus several of the Petrenko single releases. Haitink would be my top choice from that list.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: bluto32 on March 07, 2018, 09:28:45 AM
Thanks for the Haitink recommendation - another one to mull over (although I already have 3 of his cycle).

The Jansons clips I have found are:

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Dimitri-Schostakowitsch-1906-1975-Symphonien-Nr-1-15/hnum/5908441
http://www.warnerclassics.com/release/250008,0094636530024/jansons-mariss-shostakovich-the-complete-symphonies

At both sites, the sound quality does not seem to correspond with what I've read in rave reviews. Are these just severely compressed lossy audio files, or is the quality really a good few notches down from Barshai, Petrenko, Haitink?

Presto/Amazon sadly don't have clips for the Jansons set.
Bluto
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Baron Scarpia on March 07, 2018, 09:33:31 AM
I regard the audio quality for Jansons to be less satisfactory than Haitink. It was not a good era for EMI audio engineering, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: North Star on March 07, 2018, 09:39:53 AM
Quote from: bluto32 on March 07, 2018, 09:28:45 AM
Thanks for the Haitink recommendation - another one to mull over (although I already have 3 of his cycle).

The Jansons clips I have found are:

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Dimitri-Schostakowitsch-1906-1975-Symphonien-Nr-1-15/hnum/5908441
http://www.warnerclassics.com/release/250008,0094636530024/jansons-mariss-shostakovich-the-complete-symphonies

At both sites, the sound quality does not seem to correspond with what I've read in rave reviews. Are these just severely compressed lossy audio files, or is the quality really a good few notches down from Barshai, Petrenko, Haitink?

Presto/Amazon sadly don't have clips for the Jansons set.
Bluto

Must be something wrong with the sample files. Maybe Youtube or Spotify could give you a better idea of the sound. There's definitely dynamic range aplenty.

https://www.youtube.com/v/ivj08BjXzaw
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Baron Scarpia on March 07, 2018, 09:44:16 AM
Quote from: North Star on March 07, 2018, 09:39:53 AM
Must be something wrong with the sample files. Maybe Youtube or Spotify could give you a better idea of the sound. There's definitely dynamic range aplenty.

There was no specific complaint that dynamic range was limited, but rather about lossy compression compromising quality (as I read it). I haven't listened to every symphony in the set, but based on my experience, while they have the expected dynamic range, I find them to be congested and lacking a convincing soundstage.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Jo498 on March 07, 2018, 09:55:43 AM
The Haitink has great sound and in the 1980s and early 1990s it was the obvious "western" option. But it is not equally committed in all symphonies and many feel that the "rawer" sound/approach of Russian conductors and orchestras is a better fit.
I have the Jansons and as it is with different orchestras in different halls the sound is not uniformly excellent and maybe not as great as Haitink's but it is not at all bad. I'd say that Jansons' approach is midway between the "westernized", somewhat smoothed out Haitink and the Russians.
(Have not heard the Barshai. But Barshai obviously was a personal aquaintance of the composer (although the orchestra obviously is not Russian) and this set was originally produced by the West German Radio and only taken by Brilliant because the label that originally was supposed to distribute it, did not do so for some reason. It was highly acclaimed when it finally appeared, I think.)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: North Star on March 07, 2018, 10:01:46 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on March 07, 2018, 09:44:16 AM
There was no specific complaint that dynamic range was limited. I haven't listened to every symphony in the set, but while they have the expected dynamic range, I find them to be congested and lacking a convincing soundstage.
He asked if the files are seriously compressed, and dynamics are among the first things to suffer with compression - along with the things you find fault with in the recordings, of course. I can't say you're entirely wrong about the congestion and soundstage, but it has never bothered me.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Baron Scarpia on March 07, 2018, 10:08:52 AM
Quote from: North Star on March 07, 2018, 10:01:46 AM
He asked if the files are seriously compressed, and dynamics are among the first things to suffer with compression - along with the things you find fault with in the recordings, of course. I can't say you're entirely wrong about the congestion and soundstage, but it has never bothered me.

Sound quality is very subjective. I have the Janson's set on CD, and stopped listening to it because I found the audio interfered with my enjoyment and I had better options. Purely subjective, of course. I guess the real issue is whether those samples are indicative of the CD quality. That I do not know. My main question now is "where did I put my Barshai set?"
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 07, 2018, 10:33:34 AM
I bought some of the individual Petrenko/Naxos releases, and found them disappointing. It's been a while since I listened, but I just didn't think he got overall conception quite as well done as others I have heard. Of the rest, I have a couple Haitink discs and they are excellent. I have heard great things about the Kitajenko, so definitely consider that (though I've not heard it myself).
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: André on March 07, 2018, 11:08:55 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on March 07, 2018, 10:33:34 AM
I bought some of the individual Petrenko/Naxos releases, and found them disappointing. It's been a while since I listened, but I just didn't think he got overall conception quite as well done as others I have heard. Of the rest, I have a couple Haitink discs and they are excellent. I have heard great things about the Kitajenko, so definitely consider that (though I've not heard it myself).

+ 1 about the Petrenkos and Haitinks.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Madiel on March 08, 2018, 02:44:19 AM
Whereas I bought the Petrenko box partly on the strength of reviews that said how good he was at holding together some of the really big structures, and I agree with those reviews.

Tastes vary.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on March 08, 2018, 04:55:02 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on March 08, 2018, 02:44:19 AM
Whereas I bought the Petrenko box partly on the strength of reviews that said how good he was at holding together some of the really big structures, and I agree with those reviews.

Tastes vary.

They do.

Me, I much prefer Petrenko to Barshai.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Baron Scarpia on March 08, 2018, 08:06:48 AM
Any particular reason?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on March 08, 2018, 08:13:46 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on March 08, 2018, 08:06:48 AM
Any particular reason?

Clarity of the recording;  the sound of the respective orchestras;  preparation/performance.  Mind you, I have not heard all 15 by either conductor, so there may be room for negotiating the odd item.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: aukhawk on March 09, 2018, 02:14:30 AM
Quote from: bluto32 on February 24, 2018, 11:14:23 AM

  • Petrenko (RLPO, Naxos)
  • Barshai (WDR, Brilliant Classics)
  • Jansons (Various, Warner/EMI)
Haitink was in the running, but I would prefer not to duplicate the few symphonies I already have by him separately (1&5 and 8, on Decca Virtuoso).

My main considerations are:

  • Faithful to the score rather than individualistic interpretations
  • Good sound quality (I understand they are all good, although perhaps Petrenko is best overall being so recent? And with the Jansons set being recorded over so many years with so many (8?) orchestras - is the sound uneven?)
  • A sensible dynamic range (i.e. not having to change the volume during a particular symphony because the FFF annoys the neighbours but then ppp is inaudible...)

That last requirement is especially difficult in the 11th symphony, which starts pp and stays that way for about 19 minutes before any kind of a climactic moment, and doesn't reach peak loudness until about 34 minutes (timings taken from De Priest/Helsinki).  Inevitably the listener at home will turn the wick up and then have to turn it down again after 30-odd minutes and probably end up gain-riding for the remainder of the music.  It's not a comfortable listen.  All modern recordings of this work are problematic in this respect.  Possibly the best bet is Haitink which is an early digital recording with a slightly less extreme dynamic range.  You have to go back to the premiere recording by Stokowski to find something where the dynamics have really been tamed (probably too much).

But I'm not a fan of Haitink in Shostakovich generally - a bit westernised - I think it's desirable to keep hold of that Soviet 'edge' in this music - and of the names mentioned that means Barshai, or Rostropovich.  (I haven't heard either of those by the way!)  Petrenko perhaps a bit too young to qualify.  I'm not sure where that leaves the future of Shostakovich performance tradition  :-\ probably in the hands of Gergiev  ???
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on March 09, 2018, 03:44:34 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on March 09, 2018, 02:14:30 AM
[..] Petrenko perhaps a bit too young to qualify.

Ageist!  8)

Personally, I find (pivoting off, here) that Gergiev is unreliably erratic in Shostakovich.  I say that, even though I sat blissfully through a life-changingly magnificent performance of the Leningrad which Gergiev led in Worcester's Mechanics Hall.  When he is on (and the band have learnt to follow his tics), the result is amazing.

Since you suggest that you will only consider a Russian conductor, I'll go ahead and mention one of my favorite cycles:  Maksim Shostakovich.

[asin]B000I8OIHK[/asin]
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 09, 2018, 04:37:13 AM
I am currently about half way through a first listen to this cycle [asin]B077MQBZR6[/asin].  Not cheap but the first complete cycle in anything like modern sound from a Russian orchestra (the old Rohzdestvensky/Olympia set is too often let down by the dreadful one dimensional engineering).  I thought the Sladkovsky set of all 6 concerti was superb and this is proving to be very good as well.  Sound is good - less spot-lit and obviously hi-fi than some with very fine and idiomatic playing.  Interpretations are impressive too - very few quirks but powerful and dramatic.  I like the fact that this cycle was recorded complete in a very concentrated series of sessions just last year (I think it was). 

Petrenko I like but not as much it would seem as many.  Barshai at his finest - No.13 is a magnificent performance - is very good indeed.  I like many of the Caetani performances too although the SA-CD sound is a bit synthetic.  I like Kitaenko too but he can be more individual - and his approach works for me less in some symphonies than others.  The Maxim Shostakovich cycle in Prague is the only set I've ever sold - too often under-powered for me.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on March 09, 2018, 04:52:02 AM
For which symphonies does Kitaenko not ring your bell?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Biffo on March 09, 2018, 05:28:08 AM
For a time Shostakovich was discussed quite intensively in the Amazon UK forum but I gave up contributing because (1) I was always wrong and (2) I always had the wrong versions. This forum seems more open-minded so I can say that I only have one complete cycle, Barshai, already mentioned several times here and it suits all my needs. I have individual symphonies from Gergiev, Haitink, Rostropovitch, Polyansky, Elder, Stokowski, Silvestri, Sanderling, Martinon, Kondrashin, Pretre and Gozman.

If the Kondrashin cycle ever becomes available again at a sensible price I might be tempted.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on March 09, 2018, 05:40:40 AM
Quote from: Biffo on March 09, 2018, 05:28:08 AM
For a time Shostakovich was discussed quite intensively in the Amazon UK forum but I gave up contributing because (1) I was always wrong and (2) I always had the wrong versions. This forum seems more open-minded so I can say that I only have one complete cycle, Barshai, already mentioned several times here and it suits all my needs. I have individual symphonies from Gergiev, Haitink, Rostropovitch, Polyansky, Elder, Stokowski, Silvestri, Sanderling, Martinon, Kondrashin, Pretre and Gozman.

If the Kondrashin cycle ever becomes available again at a sensible price I might be tempted.

Totally agree with Biffo about the Kondrashin box, although I have managed to pick up some of the individual releases of my favourites (4,6, 8, 11 and the underrated 12). Nothing wrong with the Janson's box and another vote for Maxim's Supraphon set. Haitink is unrivalled in No.13 as far as I'm concerned. His recording had a much grater emotional impact on me than any other version (as, incidentally, was the case with his recording of Vaughan Williams's 'A Sea Symphony' which brought this work alive for me). Maybe that was partly because I had recently visited the site of 'Babi Yar' in the Ukraine.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on March 09, 2018, 05:52:37 AM
The Haitink Babi Yar is terrific.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Biffo on March 09, 2018, 06:05:48 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 09, 2018, 05:40:40 AM
Totally agree with Biffo about the Kondrashin box, although I have managed to pick up some of the individual releases of my favourites (4,6, 8, 11 and the underrated 12). Nothing wrong with the Janson's box and another vote for Maxim's Supraphon set. Haitink is unrivalled in No.13 as far as I'm concerned. His recording had a much grater emotional impact on me than any other version (as, incidentally, was the case with his recording of Vaughan Williams's 'A Sea Symphony' which brought this work alive for me). Maybe that was partly because I had recently visited the site of 'Babi Yar' in the Ukraine.

Kondrashin's coupling of No 9 and The Execution of Stepan Razin is probably my favourite Shostakovich album. I first heard it over 40 years ago but couldn't afford to buy it at the time and it has slipped on and off my radar for years. I finally bought a near mint LP online a couple of years ago at a very reasonable price. I also bought the Melodiya/Gozman recording of No 14 from the same source - fine performance but also complete with texts. One drawback with the Barshai cycle is the complete absence of texts.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 09, 2018, 06:10:03 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 09, 2018, 04:52:02 AM
For which symphonies does Kitaenko not ring your bell?

This is a bit of a generalisation; Kitaenko as a rule seems to prefer big epic interpretations.  This is true of his Rachmaninov, Scriabin and Tchaikovsky as well as the Shostakovich - less so in his Prokofiev but he's rarely ever a speed merchant.  So for DSCH I think he is at his best in 4/7/8/11/13.  But even when I'm not utterly convinced I find him an interesting conductor because he clearly has a strongly defined vision.  I know some find the engineering of this set rather variable - perhaps my system isn't good enough for that to be an issue.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Baron Scarpia on March 09, 2018, 07:39:11 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 09, 2018, 04:52:02 AM
For which symphonies does Kitaenko not ring your bell?

The question wasn't directed at me, but recently I found myself dissatisfied with 4 (followed up with Haitink, which I liked a lot more) but very satisfied with 9.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on March 09, 2018, 07:45:16 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on March 09, 2018, 07:39:11 AM
The question wasn't directed at me, but recently I found myself dissatisfied with 4 (followed up with Haitink, which I liked a lot more) but very satisfied with 9.

Thanks!  Now I should revisit, myself.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Baron Scarpia on March 09, 2018, 08:04:17 AM
It surprises me that no one seems to ever mention the Rostropovich cycle (which I recently got, but haven't listen to at all yet).
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Baron Scarpia on March 09, 2018, 08:11:31 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 09, 2018, 03:44:34 AMPersonally, I find (pivoting off, here) that Gergiev is unreliably erratic in Shostakovich.  I say that, even though I sat blissfully through a life-changingly magnificent performance of the Leningrad which Gergiev led in Worcester's Mechanics Hall.  When he is on (and the band have learnt to follow his tics), the result is amazing.

What I hear about Gergiev from a music business insider is that he can't be bothered to rehearse. He sends assistant conductors for that. Then he shows up at the hall to wave the baton, to accolades or gripes, depending on how the assistants did. (I guess if the assistants do too badly some polonium laced tea is in order.)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Biffo on March 09, 2018, 08:16:20 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on March 09, 2018, 08:04:17 AM
It surprises me that no one seems to ever mention the Rostropovich cycle (which I recently got, but haven't listen to at all yet).

I have Rostropovich in Nos 8 & 11 (LSO Live). I vaguely recall that No 8 got tepid reviews (after I had bought it). I haven't listened to either for some time.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on March 09, 2018, 08:29:13 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on March 09, 2018, 08:04:17 AM
It surprises me that no one seems to ever mention the Rostropovich cycle (which I recently got, but haven't listen to at all yet).

I don't know most of the cycle;  I've got the Fourth (which is very good, if not in my personal top tier) and the Thirteenth (probably does set in my p. t. t.)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on March 09, 2018, 08:30:03 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on March 09, 2018, 08:11:31 AM
What I hear about Gergiev from a music business insider is that he can't be bothered to rehearse. He sends assistant conductors for that. Then he shows up at the hall to wave the baton, to accolades or gripes, depending on how the assistants did. (I guess if the assistants do too badly some polonium laced tea is in order.)

This is consistent with all my musical experience of Gergiev, in Petersburg and elsewhere.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on March 09, 2018, 08:30:44 AM
Quote from: Biffo on March 09, 2018, 08:16:20 AM
I have Rostropovich in Nos 8 & 11 (LSO Live).

As do I, and I need to spend time with 'em.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: André on March 09, 2018, 01:50:16 PM
Quote from: Biffo on March 09, 2018, 06:05:48 AM
Kondrashin's coupling of No 9 and The Execution of Stepan Razin is probably my favourite Shostakovich album. I first heard it over 40 years ago but couldn't afford to buy it at the time and it has slipped on and off my radar for years. I finally bought a near mint LP online a couple of years ago at a very reasonable price. I also bought the Melodiya/Gozman recording of No 14 from the same source - fine performance but also complete with texts. One drawback with the Barshai cycle is the complete absence of texts.

+ 1 . One of the very best single issues of Shostakovich ever issued (had it on lp, now have it in the cd box set). Among 'orphan releases' I also treasure Boult's LPO 6th (Everest) and Ormandy's 15th (RCA).
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 09, 2018, 03:41:37 PM
Quote from: André on March 09, 2018, 01:50:16 PM
Among 'orphan releases' I also treasure Boult's LPO 6th (Everest) and Ormandy's 15th (RCA).

Yeah, those are both great. I've got the Boult coupled with another fine "orphan," Malcolm Sargent's 9th.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Baron Scarpia on March 09, 2018, 04:16:42 PM
Nothing beats this!

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51ftnqF2D5L.jpg)

or

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/513TlhiqrzL.jpg)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: André on March 09, 2018, 04:29:40 PM
I have Mrawinsky's 15th and it's indeed excellent. But it must yield pride of place to Ormandy  0:)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: aukhawk on March 10, 2018, 12:48:27 AM
I've seen the Leningrad PO in action, with Rozhdestvensky waving the stick.  'Well-drilled' would be apt, but an understatement. 
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: aukhawk on March 10, 2018, 01:31:29 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 09, 2018, 03:44:34 AM
Ageist!  8)

Well - Petrenko was born after DSCH died and would have been about 15 at the time of the dissolution of the USSR.  I question whether he can really have stored up enough angst and bile  :D 

Quote
Since you suggest that you will only consider a Russian conductor, I'll go ahead and mention one of my favorite cycles:  Maksim Shostakovich.

Well the question was about cycles, and really it's more that I'm not a cycles person - there are at least 5, probably 7, DSCH symphonies that don't interest me at all.  (And I would say similar of almost any composer.)  So the recordings I know are all as a result of le cherry-picking (a word that appears to have newly entered the French vocabulary  ;)).  I do rather like Caetani - he does at least have a direct connection back to Mravinsky, is my excuse for that.  But I also like (in contrast) Wigglesworth, and I guess he is about as westernised as you can get - and maybe the best-recorded that I've heard.  But neither of those is bargain price.

Confession time, the truth is, surveying my collection of the 8 symphonies I do like, and my favoured versions of them, only one Soviet-era conductor figures - Svetlanov (10th).  Sanderling (15th) and De Priest (11th) come close, I suppose.  Ormandy (1st) of course did collaborate with the composer.  I still favour Previn for the 5th!  ???   And yes, Kondrashin for that 9th/Stepan Razin issue, outstanding.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Madiel on March 10, 2018, 02:01:46 AM
If one requires that kind of cultural connection in order to perform music, one is going to be in serious trouble finding a Beethoven recording that meets such criteria.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 10, 2018, 02:08:26 AM
Quote from: André on March 09, 2018, 01:50:16 PM
+ 1 . One of the very best single issues of Shostakovich ever issued (had it on lp, now have it in the cd box set). Among 'orphan releases' I also treasure Boult's LPO 6th (Everest) and Ormandy's 15th (RCA).

The Kondrashin version of "Stenka Razin" has never been bettered I think.  An important work too but one that rather lives in the shadow of Babi Yar.  Odd that it has not had more/better recordings.  The recent Paavo Jarvi is the best I've heard of the newer/digital recordings [asin]B00TKNF41S[/asin] but I rather like the old Phillips East German performance too [asin]B01K8L1FMM[/asin]
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Madiel on March 10, 2018, 02:22:03 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 10, 2018, 02:08:26 AM
The recent Paavo Jarvi is the best I've heard of the newer/digital recordings [asin]B00TKNF41S[/asin]

Isn't this the one where they didn't include the texts because of issues with people being upset?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Draško on March 10, 2018, 02:32:51 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on March 10, 2018, 01:31:29 AM
I do rather like Caetani - he does at least have a direct connection back to Mravinsky, is my excuse for that.

What connection?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: relm1 on July 27, 2018, 04:40:54 PM
https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/shostakovich-symphony-no-5/1377649478

This is a very beautiful performance of Shostakovich No. 5.  But for me, I prefer intensity over beauty for this work.  For example, the bass trombone is very muted in the first movement which should really be forceful.  This certainly isn't a bad performance, just slightly tame for a war symphony.  Much more intensity would serve this interpretation well. The final movement is very good but I found the first movement less intense, the scherzo was lethargic, the largo was too quick and lacking intensity.  The finale was good and precise.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Daverz on July 28, 2018, 04:30:50 AM
Quote from: Draško on March 10, 2018, 02:32:51 AM
What connection?

Oleg Caetani is the son of Igor Markevitch.  Who was also a Russian conductor with a name starts with an M?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: aukhawk on July 28, 2018, 01:44:40 PM
Hah!  My bad  :-[
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Frustrated on December 05, 2019, 06:21:59 AM
RIP Mariss Jansons.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: relm1 on January 28, 2020, 04:17:39 PM
What are your thoughts on the Gamblers?  I believe the Polish composer, Krzystof Meyer, composed original music in the style of Shostakovich for the final act.  How does this work?  Is it worth hearing?  For example, Puccini's Turandot is superb and among the greatest of his long list of great operas but the third act was unfinished at his death.  When Puccini died, the first two of the three acts were finished except for some orchestrations.  He left behind sketches on 23 pages for the end of Turandot. Some sketches were in the form of "piano-vocal" or "short score," including vocal lines with "two to four staves of accompaniment with occasional notes on orchestration.  These sketches supplied musical ideas for some, but not all, of the final portion of the libretto.  Riccardo Zandonai finished the opera based on Puccini's wishes and the result is very successful.  I believe Shostakovitch abandoned The Gamblers but Krzystof Meyer "created" a final act of the opera.  How does this work?

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41xnuKeIkaL.jpg)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vers la flamme on January 28, 2020, 05:04:09 PM
I just got the Petrenko/RLPO cycle and have been slowly working through it. I really like it so far. I see there is some debate here about whether he has what it takes to pull it off. I suppose in time I will have to hear the older Soviet recordings. I have a few of them (Kondrashin and Mravinsky mostly) from a Bach Guild "Big Shostakovich Box" that I got on Amazon for $0.99. Terrible sound, though. I could never make it through any of them. The Beethoven Quartet recordings included, on the other hand, are very good.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on January 28, 2020, 09:06:01 PM
Quote from: Daverz on July 28, 2018, 04:30:50 AM
Oleg Caetani is the son of Igor Markevitch.  Who was also a Russian conductor with a name starts with an M?
I never knew that. Interesting.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on January 28, 2020, 09:07:58 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on January 28, 2020, 05:04:09 PM
I just got the Petrenko/RLPO cycle and have been slowly working through it. I really like it so far. I see there is some debate here about whether he has what it takes to pull it off. I suppose in time I will have to hear the older Soviet recordings. I have a few of them (Kondrashin and Mravinsky mostly) from a Bach Guild "Big Shostakovich Box" that I got on Amazon for $0.99. Terrible sound, though. I could never make it through any of them. The Beethoven Quartet recordings included, on the other hand, are very good.
I recently bought the inexpensive Petrenko set and look forward to listening to it. My brother's brother-in-law lives in Liverpool and rates Petrenko very highly.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 28, 2020, 11:29:48 PM
Quote from: relm1 on January 28, 2020, 04:17:39 PM
What are your thoughts on the Gamblers?  I believe the Polish composer, Krzystof Meyer, composed original music in the style of Shostakovich for the final act.  How does this work?  Is it worth hearing?  For example, Puccini's Turandot is superb and among the greatest of his long list of great operas but the third act was unfinished at his death.  When Puccini died, the first two of the three acts were finished except for some orchestrations.  He left behind sketches on 23 pages for the end of Turandot. Some sketches were in the form of "piano-vocal" or "short score," including vocal lines with "two to four staves of accompaniment with occasional notes on orchestration.  These sketches supplied musical ideas for some, but not all, of the final portion of the libretto.  Riccardo Zandonai finished the opera based on Puccini's wishes and the result is very successful.  I believe Shostakovitch abandoned The Gamblers but Krzystof Meyer "created" a final act of the opera.  How does this work?

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41xnuKeIkaL.jpg)

It was Franco Alfano who did the most famous (infamous?) completion of Turandot not Zandonai.  Others including Berio have provided alternative completions - perhaps Zandonai is one of those...?  But turning to the Gamblers - I think there is a key difference; Puccini desperately wanted to complete the work but for whatever reason simply could not.  DSCH laid Gamblers aside and moved onto other projects.  The music that does exist is interesting and worth hearing but the case is not so compelling for me to hear a completion.  Of course Gogol as a writer chimes with DSCH but in this opera his intent was to set every word of the play as an opera.  Interesting idea but of course profoundly unwieldy - no surprise that DSCH ditched the idea.  Of course part of the reason for abandoning the project was its darkly satirical and bitter style - not exactly in line with The Party in the early years of WWII.

I don't know the version/completion you have illustrated here - I have stuck with the ever-impressive Rohzdestvensky filler (only Act I as completed by DSCH) coupled with the wonderfully odd The Nose

[imghttps://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/014/MI0001014118.jpg?partner=allrovi.com[/img] 
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: aukhawk on January 29, 2020, 01:27:53 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on January 28, 2020, 05:04:09 PM
I have a few of them (Kondrashin and Mravinsky mostly) from a Bach Guild "Big Shostakovich Box" that I got on Amazon for $0.99. Terrible sound, though. I could never make it through any of them.

The latest Kondrashin transfers seem to have come up really well.  The ones I've heard so far anyway, via Spotify which has the 11-CD box:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41j4f29uZ9L._AC_.jpg)

Comparing Stepan Razin with my own needledrop (which is pretty damn good by the way) the sound from this box set is audibly and measurably improved - whilst still of course being 'of its time'.  I also listened to the Kondrashin Symphony 11 recently - that is a bit fierce-sounding but it suits the music and this rather hectic performance I suppose. At least you can hear all the music without forever fiddling with the volume control - which is a real problem in most modern recordings of this symphony - Petrenko being a typical example - the dynamic range is far too wide for comfortable home listening, a particular difficulty with this symphony since the first half-hour is almost unremitting pp.

I don't know which if any of the individual Kondrashin discs are the same transfer as that (too expensive) box set.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Daverz on January 29, 2020, 12:34:51 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on January 29, 2020, 01:27:53 AM
The latest Kondrashin transfers seem to have come up really well.  The ones I've heard so far anyway, via Spotify which has the 11-CD box:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41j4f29uZ9L._AC_.jpg)

Comparing Stepan Razin with my own needledrop (which is pretty damn good by the way) the sound from this box set is audibly and measurably improved - whilst still of course being 'of its time'.  I also listened to the Kondrashin Symphony 11 recently - that is a bit fierce-sounding but it suits the music and this rather hectic performance I suppose. At least you can hear all the music without forever fiddling with the volume control - which is a real problem in most modern recordings of this symphony - Petrenko being a typical example - the dynamic range is far too wide for comfortable home listening, a particular difficulty with this symphony since the first half-hour is almost unremitting pp.

I don't know which if any of the individual Kondrashin discs are the same transfer as that (too expensive) box set.

Ah, it's on Qobuz now.  I don't remember seeing it there before.

Here's the other 13 with Gromadsky:

(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/99/29/0888002872999_600.jpg)

https://open.qobuz.com/album/0888002872999 (if it's on Qobuz, it's probably on spotify).

Another interesting dark-horse cycle is the Tatarstan National Symphony Orchestra:

(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/5b/7v/tgsy0060w7v5b_600.jpg)

https://open.qobuz.com/album/tgsy0060w7v5b
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: aukhawk on January 30, 2020, 02:57:29 AM
Yes I have enjoyed several of the performances from that Sladkovsky cycle, over the last year or so.  Completely idiomatic, and interesting to experience the 'modern Melodiya' sound which suits the music so well.

In general though I think that DSCH's symphonic output is so uneven that cycles are not the way to go - however much of a bargain (eg Barshai) there is about 50% of the material I would just never listen to.  Instead I prefer:
Symphony 1: Ormandy, Caetani or Wigglesworth
Symphony 5: Previn 1st recording (RCA)
Symphony 6: Petrenko, or Wigglesworth
Symphony 8: Previn 1st recording (EMI), or Caetani
Symphony 9: Caetani, or Kondrashin
Symphony 10: Svetlanov
Symphony 11: De Priest 1st recording (Helsinki PO, Delos)
Symphony 15: Sanderling - or anyone really, for this most marvelous swansong
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: relm1 on January 30, 2020, 05:37:00 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on January 30, 2020, 02:57:29 AM
Yes I have enjoyed several of the performances from that Sladkovsky cycle, over the last year or so.  Completely idiomatic, and interesting to experience the 'modern Melodiya' sound which suits the music so well.

In general though I think that DSCH's symphonic output is so uneven that cycles are not the way to go - however much of a bargain (eg Barshai) there is about 50% of the material I would just never listen to.  Instead I prefer:
Symphony 1: Ormandy, Caetani or Wigglesworth
Symphony 5: Previn 1st recording (RCA)
Symphony 6: Petrenko, or Wigglesworth
Symphony 8: Previn 1st recording (EMI), or Caetani
Symphony 9: Caetani, or Kondrashin
Symphony 10: Svetlanov
Symphony 11: De Priest 1st recording (Helsinki PO, Delos)
Symphony 15: Sanderling - or anyone really, for this most marvelous swansong

Fascinating.  I wouldn't pick any of your choices but yet they all make sense too.  I guess that means the cycles are extremely well represented when my anything from my top five choices are still excellent.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 30, 2020, 08:10:09 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on January 30, 2020, 02:57:29 AM
Yes I have enjoyed several of the performances from that Sladkovsky cycle, over the last year or so.  Completely idiomatic, and interesting to experience the 'modern Melodiya' sound which suits the music so well.

In general though I think that DSCH's symphonic output is so uneven that cycles are not the way to go - however much of a bargain (eg Barshai) there is about 50% of the material I would just never listen to.  Instead I prefer:
Symphony 1: Ormandy, Caetani or Wigglesworth
Symphony 5: Previn 1st recording (RCA)
Symphony 6: Petrenko, or Wigglesworth
Symphony 8: Previn 1st recording (EMI), or Caetani
Symphony 9: Caetani, or Kondrashin
Symphony 10: Svetlanov
Symphony 11: De Priest 1st recording (Helsinki PO, Delos)
Symphony 15: Sanderling - or anyone really, for this most marvelous swansong

In complete agreement with you over the value/quality of the Sladkovsky cycle - and his survey of all 6 concerti with 6 different young players is quite excellent too.  I don't buy into the unevenness of the DSCH cycle as a premise.  That assumes all symphonies written by one composer should have a degree of sameness about them.  I completely accept that you happen not to enjoy quite a few of the symphonies but that is surely more down to personal taste rather than objective assessments.  I enjoy ALL of the symphonies - I've said on this forum before that for me DSCH more than any other composer I can think of wrote music that was a direct reflection of the time and place in which he lived and the music is consequently directly linked to that.  That doesn't make it better or worse - simply his response to the there and then.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Ratliff on January 30, 2020, 09:32:35 AM
Rostropovich never seems to get mentioned, but I live all that I've heard of it. Most recently listened to #15.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Brian on January 30, 2020, 11:03:40 AM
Chandos appears to be starting a new cycle with John Storgards and the BBC Philharmonic. Starting with #11 in March. Not sure those are the artists I would choose for a new cycle, but...okay.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Daverz on January 30, 2020, 11:36:12 AM
Quote from: Ratliff on January 30, 2020, 09:32:35 AM
Rostropovich never seems to get mentioned, but I live all that I've heard of it. Most recently listened to #15.

I admit I bought the Rostropovich box to get the 14th with Vishnevskaya and Reshetin.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Irons on January 30, 2020, 11:59:39 PM
Quote from: Daverz on January 30, 2020, 11:36:12 AM
I admit I bought the Rostropovich box to get the 14th with Vishnevskaya and Reshetin.

A very special performance and recording too.

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/3HUAAOSwHNtchspd/s-l640.jpg)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 31, 2020, 12:54:05 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 30, 2020, 11:03:40 AM
Chandos appears to be starting a new cycle with John Storgards and the BBC Philharmonic. Starting with #11 in March. Not sure those are the artists I would choose for a new cycle, but...okay.

That's the "one-more-wafer-thin-mint" of cycles.  No matter how good it is, I can't justify the expense of this.  But I bet they find some USP of digging out "never before recorded" fragments of things you've never known you'd missed... so temptation will start whispering......!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on January 31, 2020, 06:36:59 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on January 31, 2020, 12:54:05 AM
That's the "one-more-wafer-thin-mint" of cycles.  No matter how good it is, I can't justify the expense of this.  But I bet they find some USP of digging out "never before recorded" fragments of things you've never known you'd missed... so temptation will start whispering......!

There is no justification: we enjoy a glut of good cycles.  They see sales opportunities, is all.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 31, 2020, 07:17:21 AM
Quote from: Ratliff on January 30, 2020, 09:32:35 AM
Rostropovich never seems to get mentioned, but I live all that I've heard of it. Most recently listened to #15.

Along with Rozhdesvensky's, Slava's is my favorite cycle. I especially love his first five and last five. His Sixth was the only disappointment.

Sarge
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Daverz on January 31, 2020, 12:01:03 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on January 30, 2020, 02:57:29 AM
Yes I have enjoyed several of the performances from that Sladkovsky cycle, over the last year or so.  Completely idiomatic, and interesting to experience the 'modern Melodiya' sound which suits the music so well.

In general though I think that DSCH's symphonic output is so uneven that cycles are not the way to go - however much of a bargain (eg Barshai) there is about 50% of the material I would just never listen to.  Instead I prefer:
Symphony 1: Ormandy, Caetani or Wigglesworth
Symphony 5: Previn 1st recording (RCA)
Symphony 6: Petrenko, or Wigglesworth
Symphony 8: Previn 1st recording (EMI), or Caetani
Symphony 9: Caetani, or Kondrashin
Symphony 10: Svetlanov
Symphony 11: De Priest 1st recording (Helsinki PO, Delos)
Symphony 15: Sanderling - or anyone really, for this most marvelous swansong

I also think highly of that Previn 5th, but I'm a sucker for most new recordings of the work.  I think the last one was Urbanski.

For 1, I'd also single out Martinon.

For 8, everyone should at least hear the Mravinsky that was on Philips, though get a later issue that fixed the pitch problems:

https://altocd.com/product/alc1150

If you mean the 1966 Svetlanov 10th, I'm all in.  That is available for download as FLAC from Qobuz (and MP3 from various places if that's your thing.)

https://open.qobuz.com/album/0888003493483

Kondrashin also recorded 9 with the Concertgebouw.
.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: aukhawk on February 01, 2020, 04:26:11 AM
I'll look out that Mravinsky 8th (well, found it cheaper on Amazon and ordered it)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/610qykUcy-L._AC_UY218_ML3_.jpg)

I've always admired the Leningrad PO, saw them live in the early '70s and they were drilled to perfection even then, after Mravinsky's time.  Thrilling to watch.  I note the review remarks on how fast Mravinsky drives this music along, but its notable just comparing timings that Caetani (also live) is actually significantly quicker in every movement and a whole 4m30 quicker than Mravinsky in the opening Adagio. 
I also have Previn's second recording of the 8th (on DG) following some mentions of it in the composer thread, but this is just not a contender at all - completely lacking in any kind of energy, Shostakovich played like Delius - almost shocking really it so much misses the mark.
My first encounter with the 8th was the Kondrashin recording which was itself a very good one (and the only practical option for some years), but then when the Previn was released on EMI it seemed to me to be an improvement in every way.  But a lot of that was just the newer recording with cleaner climaxes, and if the Kondrashin has been remastered it might be a closer call.

I saw Sanderling conduct the 15th - during his tenure as conductor of the BBC Phil - and at the finish as the music winds down, there was a sense of everyone in the audience collectively holding their breath - wonderful moment.

Straying well out of my comfort zome I listened to the 13th yesterday (the Caetani recording) and did actually find a lot to enjoy.  This particular recording is a sonic spectacular by the way.  If I had to comit to a cycle (which as stated above, I wouldn't want to) it would be Caetani for me.  Though with the health warning that he is unremittingly speedy.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/9153MRdUaZL._SS500_.jpg)

Even further out of my comfort zone I'll look out that Rostropovich 14th with his good lady wife taking top billing - Britten's War Requiem made me a huge fan of Vishnevskaya.  But I do find any music that depends on vocal content (solo vocal I mean, not choral) very challenging.  That's why I have avoided the 13th and 14th.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Leo K. on October 28, 2020, 10:30:32 AM
I've been listening through Shostakovich's symphonies and now I'm up to 12.

Fascinating listening and I'm not quite sure if I like the symphonies although there are moments that grab me immensely in their beauty and intensity. It seems there are too many first movements that are slowish and therefore not immediately arresting - perhaps that is the expression by Shostakovich.

Maybe someone can help me understand these works (beyond the interesting background politically, unless that cannot separated from these works). I like them but then again I don't. Maybe I'm not hearing what makes them so great. I want to like them!

Take the 5th Symphony, which I was expecting something more grand in tone (just based on what I've read over the years), but interestingly found this is mostly a quiet lyrical symphony and there is something missing by the time we reach the ending. (Probably my ignorance yet!)

I've been going through the Petrenko cycle mostly, with the Bernstein conducted 5th and others, Sanderling Sr. and Jr., Jansons and Haitink in the mix.

Something keeps me coming back so I'll keep on listening.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on October 28, 2020, 10:40:40 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on October 28, 2020, 10:30:32 AM
I've been listening through Shostakovich's symphonies and now I'm up to 12.

Fascinating listening and I'm not quite sure if I like the symphonies although there are moments that grab me immensely in their beauty and intensity. It seems there are too many first movements that are slowish and therefore not immediately arresting - perhaps that is the expression by Shostakovich.

Shostakovich spoke wrily of his doubtful relationship with Sonata-Allegro first mvts. 8)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Leo K. on October 28, 2020, 11:21:23 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 28, 2020, 10:40:40 AM
Shostakovich spoke wrily of his doubtful relationship with Sonata-Allegro first mvts. 8)

Yeah how interesting! Understandable that perhaps that was a tiring trope of first movement sonatas he wanted to explore out of.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: relm1 on October 28, 2020, 04:21:24 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on October 28, 2020, 10:30:32 AM
It seems there are too many first movements that are slowish and therefore not immediately arresting - perhaps that is the expression by Shostakovich.

It's actually an interesting point.  Traversing his symphonies, the one with the fast first movement is considered one of the less popular ones...No. 12.  I've come to think of Shostakovich as a monumental composer where there is something worth exploring to better understand the artist through his various incarnations regardless if I even like it (and I've never heard any Shostakovich I dislike).  There is the doom and gloom version of the composer, but also the traditional version, but there is the sarcasm/wry wit version, the waltz version, the patriotic version, the neo-classical version, the enfant terrible version, etc., and all are good but different.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Jo498 on October 29, 2020, 01:21:32 AM
I don't know all these pieces very well (have heard them all but only a few somewhat frequently and thoroughly) but I think Shostakovich has several comparably traditional sonata first movements in his string quartets, although the tempo is often rather moderate than fast. (He has probably more moderato/allegretto or some such indications than any other composer). His quartets are in a sense both more classicist and more modern than the symphonies, though ;)
And of course there have been slowish sonata form first movements of symphonies already in Bruckner and Mahler.
I'd say that 2,3, 11-14 are too different/programmatic from traditional symphonies to expect something close to their forms, maybe also 7. 1,5, 9 and 15 seem close enough to traditional forms and I tend to find 8 and 10 also not so far from it that someone like Mahler would not have easily accepted them as symphonies. 6 seems a conscious departure and I don't know 4 well enough. In any case by the 1930s there had been many symphonies departing somewhat from older models, the most common alternative probably being in one movement with sections that were analogues to the old 3-5movements, like Schoenberg 's chamber symphony and Sibelius' 7th.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: aukhawk on October 29, 2020, 04:34:24 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on October 28, 2020, 10:30:32 AM
Maybe someone can help me understand these works (beyond the interesting background politically, unless that cannot separated from these works). I like them but then again I don't. Maybe I'm not hearing what makes them so great. I want to like them!

I think the symphony cycle is quite uneven.  Or maybe it's that, as suggested upthread, he has so many facets that an individual listener is likely to relate to some aspects more than others.  I like to think that there's a lot of irony (veiled or otherwise) in his music but I know some people would say that this interpretation is over-thinking with hindsight.

I really like nos. 1, 11 and 15, as much as any orchestral music I know.  And I'd put the 1st Violin Concerto and 1st Cello Concerto in that bracket too.
I enjoy 5, 6, 8, 9 and 10, and the 2nd Cello Concerto, but at a lower plane of appreciation, and the other symphonies and concertos don't really register with me at all.

I do also rate among my favourite music his Piano Trio No.2, his Quartet No.8 and especially his Preludes & Fugues Op.87 for piano.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Leo K. on October 29, 2020, 06:15:14 AM
Quote from: relm1 on October 28, 2020, 04:21:24 PM
It's actually an interesting point.  Traversing his symphonies, the one with the fast first movement is considered one of the less popular ones...No. 12.  I've come to think of Shostakovich as a monumental composer where there is something worth exploring to better understand the artist through his various incarnations regardless if I even like it (and I've never heard any Shostakovich I dislike).  There is the doom and gloom version of the composer, but also the traditional version, but there is the sarcasm/wry wit version, the waltz version, the patriotic version, the neo-classical version, the enfant terrible version, etc., and all are good but different.

Quote from: Jo498 on October 29, 2020, 01:21:32 AM
I don't know all these pieces very well (have heard them all but only a few somewhat frequently and thoroughly) but I think Shostakovich has several comparably traditional sonata first movements in his string quartets, although the tempo is often rather moderate than fast. (He has probably more moderato/allegretto or some such indications than any other composer). His quartets are in a sense both more classicist and more modern than the symphonies, though ;)
And of course there have been slowish sonata form first movements of symphonies already in Bruckner and Mahler.
I'd say that 2,3, 11-14 are too different/programmatic from traditional symphonies to expect something close to their forms, maybe also 7. 1,5, 9 and 15 seem close enough to traditional forms and I tend to find 8 and 10 also not so far from it that someone like Mahler would not have easily accepted them as symphonies. 6 seems a conscious departure and I don't know 4 well enough. In any case by the 1930s there had been many symphonies departing somewhat from older models, the most common alternative probably being in one movement with sections that were analogues to the old 3-5movements, like Schoenberg 's chamber symphony and Sibelius' 7th.

Quote from: aukhawk on October 29, 2020, 04:34:24 AM
I think the symphony cycle is quite uneven.  Or maybe it's that, as suggested upthread, he has so many facets that an individual listener is likely to relate to some aspects more than others.  I like to think that there's a lot of irony (veiled or otherwise) in his music but I know some people would say that this interpretation is over-thinking with hindsight.

I really like nos. 1, 11 and 15, as much as any orchestral music I know.  And I'd put the 1st Violin Concerto and 1st Cello Concerto in that bracket too.
I enjoy 5, 6, 8, 9 and 10, and the 2nd Cello Concerto, but at a lower plane of appreciation, and the other symphonies and concertos don't really register with me at all.

I do also rate among my favourite music his Piano Trio No.2, his Quartet No.8 and especially his Preludes & Fugues Op.87 for piano.

These are good thoughts to contemplate and helps me immensely.

I've recently listened to his String Quartet No.3, Cello Concerto No.1 and his Piano Concerto No.1 and these are all so different I was very surprised and couldn't stop thinking about it!

I like the satire, irony and witticism in so many moments and his style is making me reassess Mahler (one of my all time favorite music) in a new light. The Rondo in Mahler's 9 for example, which I never really liked, is now likeable after hearing Shostakovich.

Seeing that a lot of his symphonies are Mahlerian (in form and structure) and Brucknerian (adagio interiority) in scope (to some extent), this helps me contextually grasp Shostakovich better too.



Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: relm1 on October 29, 2020, 06:53:34 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on October 29, 2020, 06:15:14 AM
These are good thoughts to contemplate and helps me immensely.

I've recently listened to his String Quartet No.3, Cello Concerto No.1 and his Piano Concerto No.1 and these are all so different I was very surprised and couldn't stop thinking about it!

I like the satire, irony and witticism in so many moments and his style is making me reassess Mahler (one of my all time favorite music) in a new light. The Rondo in Mahler's 9 for example, which I never really liked, is now likeable after hearing Shostakovich.

Seeing that a lot of his symphonies are Mahlerian (in form and structure) and Brucknerian (adagio interiority) in scope (to some extent), this helps me contextually grasp Shostakovich better too.

Also keep in mind that like Mahler, Shostakovich is multi faceted and layered.  No. 5 is popular because on its surface it is an exciting and bold work but at a deeper level, there is alot a struggle and determination.  Much of his work is like this.  No. 10 uses his initials as a major subtext around the artists struggle and persistence but most people will just hear it as a repeating tune.  It's sort of like a fine meal.  You might like beef but at its best, the meal would be a journey through balanced flavors and textures.  I think if you like Mahler, Shostakovich is a natural fit.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on October 29, 2020, 07:11:17 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on October 29, 2020, 06:15:14 AM
These are good thoughts to contemplate and helps me immensely.

I've recently listened to his String Quartet No.3, Cello Concerto No.1 and his Piano Concerto No.1 and these are all so different I was very surprised and couldn't stop thinking about it!

I like the satire, irony and witticism in so many moments and his style is making me reassess Mahler (one of my all time favorite music) in a new light. The Rondo in Mahler's 9 for example, which I never really liked, is now likeable after hearing Shostakovich.

Seeing that a lot of his symphonies are Mahlerian (in form and structure) and Brucknerian (adagio interiority) in scope (to some extent), this helps me contextually grasp Shostakovich better too.





Excellent.

While I do not contest the thesis that the string quartets qua cycle are stronger than the symphonies, the first 10 Shostakovich pieces that got right in amongst me were all symphonies;  I find sufficient musical excellence in there that the "unevenness" of the symphonies does not faze me.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Jo498 on October 29, 2020, 08:50:11 AM
I personally also overall prefer Shostakovich's chamber music to his concertos and (at least the violin/cello) concertos to the symphonies. But I think one also has to keep in mind that most of the symphonies are much earlier pieces and generally have different goals/agendas and also very different from each other, so hardly comparable.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: amw on October 29, 2020, 02:33:31 PM
I've increasingly come around to the view that Shostakovich's greatest achievement is his vocal music—for that reason the 14th is my favourite of his symphonies but some of the other orchestral song cycles (& songs with piano/chamber accompaniment) are equally good.

In this respect I guess he's also comparable to Mahler, of whom my favourite symphonic work is probably Das Lied von der Erde, and whose songs in general are consistently superlative whereas his symphonies are sometimes a bit uneven from movement to movement etc.

But I have generally come to like the symphonies a good deal despite their unevenness or whatever, even "weaker" entries like numbers 3 and 12. I think only 5, 7 and 10 still haven't done much for me at this point, whereas I do enjoy all of the others to varying extents.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on October 30, 2020, 03:21:48 AM
Quote from: amw on October 29, 2020, 02:33:31 PM
I've increasingly come around to the view that Shostakovich's greatest achievement is his vocal music—for that reason the 14th is my favourite of his symphonies but some of the other orchestral song cycles (& songs with piano/chamber accompaniment) are equally good.

In this respect I guess he's also comparable to Mahler, of whom my favourite symphonic work is probably Das Lied von der Erde, and whose songs in general are consistently superlative whereas his symphonies are sometimes a bit uneven from movement to movement etc.

But I have generally come to like the symphonies a good deal despite their unevenness or whatever, even "weaker" entries like numbers 3 and 12. I think only 5, 7 and 10 still haven't done much for me at this point, whereas I do enjoy all of the others to varying extents.
It's No.13 'Babi Yar' which I hardly ever played and which I now regard as one of the greatest, especially since hearing Haitink's recording.
(//)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Leo K. on October 30, 2020, 06:24:35 AM
Quote from: amw on October 29, 2020, 02:33:31 PM
I've increasingly come around to the view that Shostakovich's greatest achievement is his vocal music—for that reason the 14th is my favourite of his symphonies but some of the other orchestral song cycles (& songs with piano/chamber accompaniment) are equally good.

In this respect I guess he's also comparable to Mahler, of whom my favourite symphonic work is probably Das Lied von der Erde, and whose songs in general are consistently superlative whereas his symphonies are sometimes a bit uneven from movement to movement etc.

But I have generally come to like the symphonies a good deal despite their unevenness or whatever, even "weaker" entries like numbers 3 and 12. I think only 5, 7 and 10 still haven't done much for me at this point, whereas I do enjoy all of the others to varying extents.

Interesting, I feel the same way about Mahler - over many years I've become a huge fan of the 8th Symphony and Das Lied von der Erde, so it should be interesting to hear Shostakovich's No.13 and 14! Can't wait!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Leo K. on October 30, 2020, 06:27:04 AM
Quote from: relm1 on October 29, 2020, 06:53:34 AM
Also keep in mind that like Mahler, Shostakovich is multi faceted and layered.  No. 5 is popular because on its surface it is an exciting and bold work but at a deeper level, there is alot a struggle and determination.  Much of his work is like this.  No. 10 uses his initials as a major subtext around the artists struggle and persistence but most people will just hear it as a repeating tune.  It's sort of like a fine meal.  You might like beef but at its best, the meal would be a journey through balanced flavors and textures.  I think if you like Mahler, Shostakovich is a natural fit.

Thank you for those thoughts, further stuff that makes me appreciate Shostakovich - listening to the 10th Symphony now (Michael Sanderling) and you're right, on the 3rd listen you feel those other layers resonate and hum. The clarinet and horns are prominent and really deliver a unique tone to the work.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on October 30, 2020, 10:30:56 AM
The Tenth is a huge fave of mine.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: relm1 on October 30, 2020, 03:56:34 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on October 30, 2020, 06:27:04 AM
Listening to the 10th Symphony now (Michael Sanderling) and you're right, on the 3rd listen you feel those other layers resonate and hum.

Hmm, not familiar with that cycle.  Anyone have thoughts on the successfulness of his interpretations?
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Christo on October 31, 2020, 10:51:37 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 30, 2020, 10:30:56 AM
The Tenth is a huge fave of mine.
Heard it live in the Concertgebouw a couple of times, twice again in recent years - and live it works best IMHO.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on October 31, 2020, 12:19:50 PM
Quote from: Christo on October 31, 2020, 10:51:37 AM
Heard it live in the Concertgebouw a couple of times, twice again in recent years - and live it works best IMHO.

That's how I first heard it, Rattle guest-conducting Cleveland.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: relm1 on October 31, 2020, 05:09:28 PM
Quote from: Christo on October 31, 2020, 10:51:37 AM
- and live it works best IMHO.

Umm, is there any work where that doesn't apply? 
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Leo K. on November 02, 2020, 06:33:09 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 30, 2020, 03:21:48 AM
It's No.13 'Babi Yar' which I hardly ever played and which I now regard as one of the greatest, especially since hearing Haitink's recording.
(//)

Thank you I am going to seek this out!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: vandermolen on November 03, 2020, 10:24:45 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on November 02, 2020, 06:33:09 AM
Thank you I am going to seek this out!
Excellent! Let us know what you think of it.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: j winter on January 24, 2023, 09:32:11 AM
Greetings,

I've been digging through the old thread with interest, having been bitten by the Shostakovich bug the past few days.

Seeing that I had no Mravinsky, I recently downloaded this, and have been enjoying it.  Does anyone happen to have it on CD, or could point me to which specific performances these are?  I'm assuming they are quite late, as the sonics are fairly decent... I don't particularly feel a need to acquire more, but I'd like to have some idea which these are in case I spot other Mravinsky discs in the wild...  ;D

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODYzNDk1NS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MTU3OTEyODl9)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: aukhawk on January 25, 2023, 01:17:05 AM
According to Presto, only 5, 6, 8, 9 of those are conducted by Mravinsky (and the credits for 9 look a bit dubious), the other two are Kondrashin (with a different orchestra).  No dates are given, no booklet offered.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: j winter on January 25, 2023, 08:04:43 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on January 25, 2023, 01:17:05 AMAccording to Presto, only 5, 6, 8, 9 of those are conducted by Mravinsky (and the credits for 9 look a bit dubious), the other two are Kondrashin (with a different orchestra).  No dates are given, no booklet offered.
Thanks for that... it would be rather annoying if some of them aren't even Mravinsky at all, but what the heck.  I have the classic Kondrashin set (Melodyia with the spectacles on the cover), so I'll have to compare -- hopefully they are at least different from what I already have.

For some reason the "Denon Essentials" banner at the top made me think this was a digital version of actual CDs, I guess not.  At least it was cheap, and the performances seem good so far, whoever they are!  :)

For the record, as far as Shostakovich sets go, for a long while I have owned (and given insufficient attention to) Kondrashin, Haitink, Rostropovich, and Barshai, and have this week added downloads of Patrenko, the partial set from Sanderling on Berlin Classics, and the above "Mravinsky."  Plus I have some singles from the usual suspects (Bernstein, Ormandy, etc.).  

I also have the Temirkanov Sony box on order, after greatly enjoying his Tchaikovsky set (which is what started me on my current Russian music binge... I go through phases).

I listened to Patrenko's 4th on my way to work this morning... excellent performance I thought, beautifully recorded (judging from my car's speakers, so take that with a pound of salt).  It ended up being slightly longer than my commute though, so I ended up having to stop 5 minutes from the end... :(  I may run an errand at lunchtime just to finish it off  ;D
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on January 25, 2023, 09:03:53 AM
Quote from: j winter on January 25, 2023, 08:04:43 AMThanks for that... it would be rather annoying if some of them aren't even Mravinsky at all, but what the heck.  I have the classic Kondrashin set (Melodyia with the spectacles on the cover), so I'll have to compare -- hopefully they are at least different from what I already have.

For some reason the "Denon Essentials" banner at the top made me think this was a digital version of actual CDs, I guess not.  At least it was cheap, and the performances seem good so far, whoever they are!  :)

For the record, as far as Shostakovich sets go, for a long while I have owned (and given insufficient attention to) Kondrashin, Haitink, Rostropovich, and Barshai, and have this week added downloads of Patrenko, the partial set from Sanderling on Berlin Classics, and the above "Mravinsky."  Plus I have some singles from the usual suspects (Bernstein, Ormandy, etc.). 

I also have the Temirkanov Sony box on order, after greatly enjoying his Tchaikovsky set (which is what started me on my current Russian music binge... I go through phases).

I listened to Patrenko's 4th on my way to work this morning... excellent performance I thought, beautifully recorded (judging from my car's speakers, so take that with a pound of salt).  It ended up being slightly longer than my commute though, so I ended up having to stop 5 minutes from the end... :(  I may run an errand at lunchtime just to finish it off  ;D

Temirkanov's account of the Leningrad was perhaps the first to really sell the piece to me.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: relm1 on January 25, 2023, 04:21:17 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 25, 2023, 09:03:53 AMTemirkanov's account of the Leningrad was perhaps the first to really sell the piece to me.

What do you think of Bernstein's/CSO?  That interpretation brought Maxim Shostakovich to teers as it was a live performance, and he was in the audience.  To me, that is the pinnacle of this work to which all other interpretations are compared.   Yes, yes, it is Shostakovich by way of Mahler but that is also the essence of Shostakovich.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on January 25, 2023, 04:35:08 PM
Quote from: relm1 on January 25, 2023, 04:21:17 PMWhat do you think of Bernstein's/CSO?  That interpretation brought Maxim Shostakovich to teers as it was a live performance, and he was in the audience.  To me, that is the pinnacle of this work to which all other interpretations are compared.  Yes, yes, it is Shostakovich by way of Mahler but that is also the essence of Shostakovich.
It's a stupendous account! Entirely sui generis.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 29, 2023, 04:34:04 AM
Quote from: relm1 on January 25, 2023, 04:21:17 PMWhat do you think of Bernstein's/CSO?  That interpretation brought Maxim Shostakovich to teers as it was a live performance, and he was in the audience.  To me, that is the pinnacle of this work to which all other interpretations are compared.  Yes, yes, it is Shostakovich by way of Mahler but that is also the essence of Shostakovich.

If you have any interest in this work the Bernstein/CSO performance MUST be heard.  That does not mean it is the "best" or whatever but it is a quite unique and utterly compelling interpretation backed up by remarkable playing by the Chicago All Stars.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Brahmsian on February 13, 2023, 07:51:50 AM
Hello, I am considering obtaining one of the following three complete symphony cycles:

A - Wigglesworth
B - Jansons
C - Rostropovich

Out of these three, if anyone has listened to all and wants to vet for a certain set, I appreciate the feedback. Even if one hasn't obtained all these sets but wants to make a strong case for a particular listed above set, feel free to chime in! :)

Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Karl Henning on February 13, 2023, 08:20:28 AM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on February 13, 2023, 07:51:50 AMHello, I am considering obtaining one of the following three complete symphony cycles:

A - Wigglesworth
B - Jansons
C - Rostropovich

Out of these three, if anyone has listened to all and wants to vet for a certain set, I appreciate the feedback. Even if one hasn't obtained all these sets but wants to make a strong case for a particular listed above set, feel free to chime in! :)


I especially like the Tenth and Fifteenth in the Jansons set, Ray.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Brahmsian on February 13, 2023, 08:23:57 AM
Quote from: Karl Tirebiter Henning on February 13, 2023, 08:20:28 AMI especially like the Tenth and Fifteenth in the Jansons set, Ray.

Duly noted, Karl. Thank you! 🙂
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Jo498 on February 13, 2023, 08:38:41 AM
Jansons is with edit: 8 different orchestras, some also recorded live, so it's a bit uneven in several respects. I don't remember many details but overall it's quite good and worth trying.
I don't know any of the others mentioned but seem to recall that Rostropovich was found a bit disappointing in some review (but people might have expect "too much" from a musician close to the composer).
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Brahmsian on February 13, 2023, 10:57:57 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on February 13, 2023, 08:38:41 AMJansons is with edit: 8 different orchestras, some also recorded live, so it's a bit uneven in several respects. I don't remember many details but overall it's quite good and worth trying.
I don't know any of the others mentioned but seem to recall that Rostropovich was found a bit disappointing in some review (but people might have expect "too much" from a musician close to the composer).

Thank you Jo!
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: JBS on February 13, 2023, 06:43:11 PM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on February 13, 2023, 07:51:50 AMHello, I am considering obtaining one of the following three complete symphony cycles:

A - Wigglesworth
B - Jansons
C - Rostropovich

Out of these three, if anyone has listened to all and wants to vet for a certain set, I appreciate the feedback. Even if one hasn't obtained all these sets but wants to make a strong case for a particular listed above set, feel free to chime in! :)



Wigglesworth: I thought I had a recording of the Eleventh by him on the Arte Nova label, but there seems to be no such recording. So no opinion on him.

Rostropovich: I think his LSO recordings of the Eighth and Eleventh are the best performances of those symphonies by anyone--but the full cycle doesn't really match that.

Jansons: I have about half his cycle as individual issues, and think they're quite good.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Madiel on February 13, 2023, 10:15:48 PM
For what it's worth, Jansons was one of my 2 finalists when I was choosing a cycle. So he was my runner-up (the winner is not one of your options).

While I didn't listen to the complete performances, I definitely had positive impressions of the samples that I tried across all the symphonies. And in general that cycle seems to be pretty highly regarded. Despite the wide variety of orchestras used, it's considered a consistent set.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Brahmsian on February 14, 2023, 03:04:56 AM
Thank you for your feedback, Ephraim and Madiel.  :)
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: aukhawk on February 14, 2023, 08:46:25 AM
I have several of the Wiggles - he very much tends towards slow, which I quite like but it would be too much for some.  More problematic is the very wide dynamic BIS recordings - I cannot listen without riding the volume control all the time.
I would also commend Caetani (errs on the very fast side, fabulous podiums-ear-view live recordings) and Kitajenko (modern but very Soviet-sounding performances and recordings).
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Roasted Swan on February 14, 2023, 08:54:46 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on February 14, 2023, 08:46:25 AMI have several of the Wiggles - he very much tends towards slow, which I quite like but it would be too much for some.  More problematic is the very wide dynamic BIS recordings - I cannot listen without riding the volume control all the time.
I would also commend Caetani (errs on the very fast side, fabulous podiums-ear-view live recordings) and Kitajenko (modern but very Soviet-sounding performances and recordings).

I would have suggested both Kitajenko and Caetani as interesting/individual takes as well and Barshai for a good to very good 'safe' cycle as another option.  Personally I'd put any of those 3 over Wigglesworth.  I have the Jansons set but actually have listened to it too little to comment.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Brahmsian on February 14, 2023, 08:56:59 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 14, 2023, 08:54:46 AMI would have suggested both Kitajenko and Caetani as interesting/individual takes as well and Barshai for a good to very good 'safe' cycle as another option.  Personally I'd put any of those 3 over Wigglesworth.  I have the Jansons set but actually have listened to it too little to comment.

I do have the Barshai and Petrenko sets, which I enjoy immensely and equally.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Brahmsian on February 14, 2023, 09:03:32 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on February 14, 2023, 08:46:25 AMI have several of the Wiggles - he very much tends towards slow, which I quite like but it would be too much for some.  More problematic is the very wide dynamic BIS recordings - I cannot listen without riding the volume control all the time.

Thanks for mentioning both of those points out. Both would be cause for avoidance from me. I definitely have a tendency to prefer tempos on the brisker side.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: Madiel on February 14, 2023, 11:25:18 AM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on February 14, 2023, 08:56:59 AMI do have the Barshai and Petrenko sets, which I enjoy immensely and equally.

Petrenko was my winner. I do have vague memories that Jansons was somewhat similar in style from my sampling.
Title: Re: Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise
Post by: DavidW on February 15, 2023, 06:09:17 AM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on February 14, 2023, 08:56:59 AMI do have the Barshai and Petrenko sets, which I enjoy immensely and equally.

Throw in Kondrashin and those are my three favorite box sets.