GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Composer Discussion => Topic started by: Maciek on April 12, 2007, 02:43:03 PM

Title: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on April 12, 2007, 02:43:03 PM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b0/Krzysztof_Penderecki.jpg/220px-Krzysztof_Penderecki.jpg)
(pic by Nutada (own work) [Public domain], via Wikimedia Commons)

Judging by the number of threads dedicated to him on the old forum - one of the most popular contemporary composers on GMG. But a controversial figure nontheless. The sudden stylistic turns he took in his career. The tendency he has to make each next work even longer. His slightly pompous demeanor. Etc.

Personally, I tend to like his work less and less as his style "develops". His early, avantgarde stuff is right up my alley. But he starts to get boring for me around the end of the 70s, when he is well into his neo-romantic turn (still, I have to admit I love Paradise Lost!).

My favorite pieces:
Dimensions of Time and Silence (1959-61), String Quartet No. 1 (1960), Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima (1960) for 52 string instruments, Polymorphia (1961) for 48 string instruments, Fluorescences (1961-62) for orchestra, St. Luke's Passion (1965), Dies Irae (1967), String Quartet No. 2 (1968), The Devils of Loudun (Die Teufel von Loudun, 1968-69), Utrenja (1969-71), Cello Concerto No. 1 (1972), The Dream of Jacob (1974), Paradise Lost (1978).

I think the symphonies are something I'm missing out on - I only know the first two but I'm not especially fond of them.

Of the later works (such as the Polish Requiem or the Seven Gates of Jerusalem) I only like snatches or (even more often) I don't like them at all.

Here are some links to threads dedicated to Penderecki on the old forum:
The Devils of Loudun on DVD (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,13209.0.html)
Penderecki: The Devils of Loudun (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,7557.0.html) (only 1 post here)
Penderecki's Devils! (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,8666.0.html)
Penderecki's Threnody (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,11758.0.html)
Canticum Canticorum Salomonis- great little piece of music! (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,12333.0.html)
Penderecki's symphonies on Naxos (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,5412.0.html)
Penderecki- 6th symphony (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,10880.0.html)
Penderecki Matrix 5 EMI Classics (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,9100.0.html)
Penderecki interview (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,4842.0.html)

Awaiting your comments, favorite recordings, etc.!

Maciek
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 12, 2007, 10:19:15 PM
While I generally agree that the earlier, modernistic stuff is superior & more distinctive, there are plenty of neo-romantic Penderecki pieces I like.

The Sextet comes at the top of the list - really colorful, dramatic & fun piece of chamber music. I also like the Clarinet Quartet, which sounds like a Shostakovich quartet with the clarinet replacing one of the violins. They're both available on a wonderful Naxos disc.

I also like the 3rd Symphony - I think it could become a serious crowd pleaser if given the chance.

I wish he would write more for small ensembles, though. Orchestra + big chorus tends to bring out the bombast in him. And speaking of chorus, I also like a disc of his unaccompanied choral music made by some Finnish choir (I forget the name). The music is wonderfully atmospheric, & the disc as a whole allows you to trace all his stylistic turns from c. 1960 to the 1990s.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Symphonien on April 12, 2007, 11:33:38 PM
So far the only disk I have is the EMI Matrix 5 one, but I absolutely love it! All the pieces there are great, but I especially like the Threnody, Canticum Canticorum Salomonis and the Dream of Jacob. And also the Capriccio for violin and orchestra. There's a short segment in the middle there which sounds exactly like that corny electronic sci-fi music, where the violin glissandos in the high register. Very amusing...

I think what makes Penderecki interesting is not just the interesting effects he achieves through the orchestra, but the atmosphere he creates through the silence/soft parts in between the more violent sections. They seem all the more startling in contrast. But of course, his extended techniques are amazing; I'm particularly fond of the sound produced near the end of Threnody where he has the instruments bow their tailpieces. The first time I heard it, I was shocked and amazed to hear this sound being produced by string instruments!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 13, 2007, 12:05:58 AM
So far the only disk I have is the EMI Matrix 5 one, but I absolutely love it! All the pieces there are great, but I especially like the Threnody, Canticum Canticorum Salomonis and the Dream of Jacob.

I love The Dream of Jacob! It's a gem. It reminds me of Ligeti's orchestral pieces from the 1960s, but with an added narrative element.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on April 13, 2007, 01:42:53 AM
The Sextet comes at the top of the list - really colorful, dramatic & fun piece of chamber music.

I've seen the Sextet recommended quite a few times on the old forum, so I probably need to check that out, thanks!

Quote
I also like the Clarinet Quartet

I know the Quartet but I'm not madly in love with it. ;) A few nice passages but as a whole it doesn't really work for me.

Quote
I also like the 3rd Symphony - I think it could become a serious crowd pleaser if given the chance.

Perhaps that's where I should start...

Quote
And speaking of chorus, I also like a disc of his unaccompanied choral music made by some Finnish choir (I forget the name). The music is wonderfully atmospheric, & the disc as a whole allows you to trace all his stylistic turns from c. 1960 to the 1990s.

Yes, his writing for choir is very good. I didn't separately list some of the pieces that make up the Passion but I like them all very much. One later piece I didn't mention that I do enjoy very much is the Song of Cherubim (1986) for choir.

Dream of Jacob is one of my favorites! It's on the list in my first post. Proof that he could still write great pieces of moderate length in the 70s. ;D
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: not edward on April 13, 2007, 03:41:31 AM
I've seen the Sextet recommended quite a few times on the old forum, so I probably need to check that out, thanks!
Yes, it's a good piece, probably my favourite of his neo-Romantic period. (Possibly of his whole career.)

I have really mixed feelings about Penderecki. He's undoubtably talented, but appears to have terrible issues with musical structure and a dreadful tendency to lapse into pure bombast. (The only time I don't mind the bombast is in the Second Symphony, which is so absurdly over the top that I can enjoy it as a piece of pure camp.)

I never really liked the more modernist pieces that much either. They're striking on the surface, but when I compare them to what Ligeti or Lutoslawski were doing at the same time, the craftsmanship is not remotely on the same level.

I'd agree with those who like his chamber music best: I think the string trio is another strong piece, and the clarinet quintet is pretty good (the second violin sonata is flaccid and compares really poorly to similar pieces by Shostakovich and Schnittke, though, IMO).
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on April 13, 2007, 03:59:40 AM
I think you're right, Edward. I'd never listen to Penderecki for the same sort of intellectual/emotional experience/stimulation that Lutosławski gives me. But I love those early pieces as a form of very enjoyable, organized noise - I listen to them a bit as if they were pop music, actually ;). And I don't think comparing those pieces to Ligeti or Lutosławski is exactly fair ;). There are no microstructures in Penderecki - these are all very broad brush strokes. But ultimately, I find them effective and fun. ;D For me - they work.

And yes, his issues with form are definitely very serious... Or maybe he's just managed to attain a plane that most of today's music hasn't reached yet? ;D ;D
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: greg on April 13, 2007, 05:53:30 AM
Cool way to start off a new forum with a really cool Penderecki thread!

hmmm.... i don't know about the 'slightly pompous demeanor', though. He seems like a really gentle soul, even though he kinda looks like a tough guy. You should hear his voice, lol, i expected this really deep voice, but nah
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Cato on April 13, 2007, 08:16:42 AM
What is really annoying is that no company has yet issued Symphony #8.

Interested people will want to see this site:

http://www.penderecki.de/cds/instrumentalmusik/orchester/index.html
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on April 13, 2007, 09:47:21 AM
Cool way to start off a new forum with a really cool Penderecki thread!

hmmm.... i don't know about the 'slightly pompous demeanor', though. He seems like a really gentle soul, even though he kinda looks like a tough guy. You should hear his voice, lol, i expected this really deep voice, but nah

Well, I really had just one TV interview that I once saw in mind. He seemed more than slightly vain there but maybe it was a bad day or something... ;)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: greg on April 15, 2007, 11:07:17 AM
What is really annoying is that no company has yet issued Symphony #8.

Interested people will want to see this site:

http://www.penderecki.de/cds/instrumentalmusik/orchester/index.html
i know, he wrote that awhile ago- they need to get onto it!
and i think by now he should've finished the St.John Passion, though i don't know if it's been performed yet.



Quote
Well, I really had just one TV interview that I once saw in mind. He seemed more than slightly vain there but maybe it was a bad day or something...

are you talking about that interview he did on Korean TV that someone made a thread about? (or was it you?  ;D )
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on April 15, 2007, 12:10:38 PM
Nope. It was on Polish TV, years ago (well, 10 years let's say ;D). He seemed pleasant enough but there was that "I'm a GREAT composer air, listen to all the sagacious pronouncements I make!" air ;).
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: greg on April 17, 2007, 07:04:20 AM
Nope. It was on Polish TV, years ago (well, 10 years let's say ;D). He seemed pleasant enough but there was that "I'm a GREAT composer air, listen to all the sagacious pronouncements I make!" air ;).
hehe
actually, not long after you posted, I remembered that it was Kevin who made the thread of him being on Korean TV (after all, he does live in Korea)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: springrite on April 17, 2007, 07:30:17 AM
I do NOT like his late stuffs at all. While I do have a lot of his music in my collection, the ones that I really love are:

St. Luke's Passion
Cello Concerto #1
Quartet(s?)

Part of Symphony #2 is very good, but I do not love it overall.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: MDL on April 18, 2007, 12:52:50 AM
I've found this picture of a recording of Utrenja conducted by Penderecki on Koch, but I can find no other information about it. Has anybody got, or even just seen, this CD? The Koch website is fairly useless, and there's nothing on Amazon.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mark G. Simon on April 18, 2007, 04:25:16 AM
I heard a performance of the clarinet quartet and found it very effective. It does have a lot of Shostakovich in it. The cellist has to tune the C string down to B flat. At one point I heard a low B coming out of the cello and saw the cellist still with her left hand doing the espressivo thing on the fingerboard.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on April 18, 2007, 05:17:25 AM
I've found this picture of a recording of Utrenja conducted by Penderecki on Koch, but I can find no other information about it. Has anybody got, or even just seen, this CD? The Koch website is fairly useless, and there's nothing on Amazon.

The picture is very small but (judging by the overall design) it looks very much like a recording from the Wratislavia Cantans (http://www.wratislavia.art.pl) festival. I have never seen this one though (the Utrenja that I have is a Polskie Nagrania disc). Tracking it down might prove difficult because Wratislavia Cantans discs have been released by various labels in the past (I have some by DUX and some by CD Accord - the graphic design is exactly the same). But I don't think Koch was ever involved...? ???
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on April 18, 2007, 05:22:12 AM
I searched a little more (Wratislavia Cantans + Utrenja this time), and found this info: PENDRECKI KRZYSZTOF - Utrenja / Jutrznia, Recorded live / Wratislavia Cantans 1997. The performers: Jadwiga Gadulanka - soprano, Vita Nikołaienko - mezzosoprano, Piotr Kusiewicz - tenor, Radosław Żukowski - bass, Gennadij Bezzubienkov - bass, Chór Filharmonii Narodowej, Warszawski Chór Chłopięcy, Orchester des Mitteldeutscher Rundfunk, Krzysztof Penderecki. And you were right - it WAS released by Koch (in 1998). There's more info (in Polish, I'm afraid) here (http://www.polmic.pl/nzopis.php?lang=pl&id=836).
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Brewski on April 18, 2007, 05:26:18 AM
I searched a little more (Wratislavia Cantans + Utrenja this time), and found this info: PENDRECKI KRZYSZTOF - Utrenja / Jutrznia, Recorded live / Wratislavia Cantans 1997. The performers: Jadwiga Gadulanka - soprano, Vita Nikołaienko - mezzosoprano, Piotr Kusiewicz - tenor, Radosław Żukowski - bass, Gennadij Bezzubienkov - bass, Chór Filharmonii Narodowej, Warszawski Chór Chłopięcy, Orchester des Mitteldeutscher Rundfunk, Krzysztof Penderecki. And you were right - it WAS released by Koch (in 1998). There's more info (in Polish, I'm afraid) here (http://www.polmic.pl/nzopis.php?lang=pl&id=836).

Thanks, this is great to know.  I had no idea there was any Utrenja on CD.  I still have the LP version, c. 1972, with Eugene Ormandy and the Philadelphia Orchestra...haven't listened to it in many years, but recall liking it immensely.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on April 18, 2007, 05:33:01 AM
Bruce, the Polskie Nagrania disc that I have is still in print. It looks like this:
(http://www.polskienagrania.com.pl/okladki/212.jpg)

And it's available in Polish internet stores (haven't checked amazon): merlin (http://www.merlin.com.pl/frontend/browse/product/4,36669.html) and gigant (http://www.gigant.pl/html/produkt.asp?p=pwmqblentvealdgrmlha), for example.

It's a very good performance, with an excellent set of performers (including my favorite Polish soprano Stefania Woytowicz), conducted by a Polish contemporary music legend, Andrzej Markowski (he had done an enormous lot of first performances).

Maciek
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Brewski on April 18, 2007, 05:39:02 AM
Bruce, the Polskie Nagrania disc that I have is still in print. It looks like this:
(http://www.polskienagrania.com.pl/okladki/212.jpg)

And it's available in Polish internet stores (haven't checked amazon): merlin (http://www.merlin.com.pl/frontend/browse/product/4,36669.html) and gigant (http://www.gigant.pl/html/produkt.asp?p=pwmqblentvealdgrmlha), for example.

It's a very good performance, with an excellent set of performers (including my favorite Polish soprano Stefania Woytowicz), conducted by a Polish contemporary music legend, Andrzej Markowski (he had done an enormous lot of first performances).

Maciek

Thanks so much, Maciek!  PS, Woytowicz is on the Ormandy recording, as well!  (Or perhaps you knew that... ;))  Here is the excerpt I found from The Musical Quarterly   (http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0027-4631(197204)58%3A2%3C330%3APU%3E2.0.CO%3B2-W).

--Bruce
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on April 18, 2007, 05:42:30 AM
Thanks for the link. And no, until today I knew nothing of the Ormandy recording. :-[ There are more overlaps in the cast: Bernard Ładysz and Peter Lagger are in the Polish recording too.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: MDL on April 18, 2007, 06:02:11 AM
Thanks so much, Maciek!  PS, Woytowicz is on the Ormandy recording, as well!  (Or perhaps you knew that... ;))  Here is the excerpt I found from The Musical Quarterly   (http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0027-4631(197204)58%3A2%3C330%3APU%3E2.0.CO%3B2-W).

--Bruce

The Ormandy recording consists of the first half only, The Entombment. The Resurrection was written later. I actually prefer the Ormandy recording of the first half to the Polish recording. Unfortunately, it has never been released on CD. Neither has Kosmogonia, which inhabits a similar sound world.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Brewski on April 18, 2007, 06:07:16 AM
The Ormandy recording consists of the first half only, The Entombment. The Resurrection was written later. I actually prefer the Ormandy recording of the first half to the Polish recording. Unfortunately, it has never been released on CD. Neither has Kosmogonia, which inhabits a similar sound world.

Ah, thanks for that clarification, MDL. 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: greg on April 18, 2007, 07:40:04 AM
i don't know if it's been recorded on CD, but here's a fun little solo clarinet piece:

go to classicalmusicarchive.net and for Penderecki, they have a Preludium for Clarinet. you have to register for the site, though
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: karlhenning on April 25, 2007, 10:49:16 AM
Quite the tangent, but this recording I've been listening to of the Hartmann Concerto funèbre and of the Szymanowski First Vn Cto is conducted by Penderecki.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on April 25, 2007, 11:01:48 AM
How is he?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: karlhenning on April 25, 2007, 11:02:57 AM
Both these concerti have a nice delicacy, Maciek.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on April 25, 2007, 11:05:09 AM
Ah, perfect! That's the way they should be played. Maybe I'm all wrong about Penderecki's conducting then... 0:)

Still, better safe than sorry. ;)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: karlhenning on April 25, 2007, 11:06:06 AM
Safety first, Maciek!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on April 25, 2007, 11:07:07 AM
 ;D
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: greg on January 04, 2008, 01:08:20 PM
The World Premiere Recording of his 8th symphony on Naxos.com!

i don't think they have the audio up yet, though, because it doesn't seem to work  :P
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: greg on January 04, 2008, 04:18:05 PM
What about the recording I posted for you in the Mystery Score thread? Have you finally listened to it?

Here's the link (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg97852.html#msg97852) - for those who've missed it.
yep, i listened to it and liked very much what i heard! I don't know if i you had the whole symphony on there, though.... i downloaded some, listened, and forgot about it.... and i just tried now clicking on the link and there aren't any files there.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: MDL on January 05, 2008, 04:14:27 AM
The World Premiere Recording of his 8th symphony on Naxos.com!

i don't think they have the audio up yet, though, because it doesn't seem to work  :P

I'm more excited about the new recording of the Dies Irae that accompanies it.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on January 05, 2008, 04:40:07 AM
A new recording of the Dies Irae?! :D That's one of my favorite Penderecki pieces!

OTOH, do I actually need a second recording...? Well, what I've heard of the 8th so far was also very tempting (and I don't generally take to Penderecki's symphonies)... Perhaps I'll have to get this new CD then. 8)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: MDL on January 05, 2008, 05:37:53 AM
A new recording of the Dies Irae?! :D That's one of my favorite Penderecki pieces!

OTOH, do I actually need a second recording...? Well, what I've heard of the 8th so far was also very tempting (and I don't generally take to Penderecki's symphonies)... Perhaps I'll have to get this new CD then. 8)

Full track listing: 8th Symphony, Dies Irae and The Psalms of David. There are samples on the Naxos website. HMV had loads of copies, but I want to support Harold Moores in Soho, so I'm going to wait until they have it in stock.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: greg on January 05, 2008, 06:03:33 AM
What about the recording I posted for you in the Mystery Score thread? Have you finally listened to it?

Here's the link (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg97852.html#msg97852) - for those who've missed it.
thanks! I only got the first 3 files at first, but now i got the last 3, and have turned them on.  :)
Title: Penderecki Violin Concerti
Post by: BachQ on January 08, 2008, 07:42:28 PM
Does anyone have an opinion of Penderecki's VIOLIN CONCERTI (1 or 2)?

Title: Re: Penderecki Violin Concerti
Post by: not edward on January 08, 2008, 07:45:49 PM
Does anyone have an opinion of Penderecki's VIOLIN CONCERTI (1 or 2)?
For me, both are rambling, intermittently beautiful, but too loosely-structured for my taste.

For people interested in this composer, Naxos is about to release the Eighth Symphony ('Lieder der Verganglichkeit') on a disc with the Dies Irae and Aus den Psalmen Davids. When I heard this symphony, I felt it was one of Penderecki's more convincing recent works, so I'll be looking forward to reacquainting myself with it.
Title: Re: Penderecki Violin Concerti
Post by: BachQ on January 08, 2008, 07:47:31 PM
For me, both are rambling, intermittently beautiful, but too loosely-structured for my taste.

For people interested in this composer, Naxos is about to release the Eighth Symphony ('Lieder der Verganglichkeit') on a disc with the Dies Irae and Aus den Psalmen Davids. When I heard this symphony, I felt it was one of Penderecki's more convincing recent works, so I'll be looking forward to reacquainting myself with it.

Are there other Penderecki symphonies that you really like?
Title: Re: Penderecki Violin Concerti
Post by: not edward on January 08, 2008, 07:51:35 PM
Are there other Penderecki symphonies that you really like?
Not hugely. The Third has a superb central slow movement and is probably my favourite of the seven (I don't think there's a 6th yet). I do really like the Second, mostly because it's almost comically overwrought yet done with great flair, but I don't think it's particularly 'great' music.
Title: Re: Penderecki Violin Concerti
Post by: MDL on January 09, 2008, 02:41:17 AM
Not hugely. The Third has a superb central slow movement and is probably my favourite of the seven (I don't think there's a 6th yet). I do really like the Second, mostly because it's almost comically overwrought yet done with great flair, but I don't think it's particularly 'great' music.

I agree; the Second Symphony is way over the top, but it works, in its doom-laden, gnashing-of-teeth kind of way. The First, Penderecki's last attempt at avant-garde music, is impressive in parts.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Guido on January 09, 2008, 04:37:31 AM
I agree with most of the people here - the late stuff is just far too rambling to be of any lasting interest, even if individual sections are beautiful or interesting. I just wish the fairly recent concerto grosso for 3 cellos and orchestra (2001) was more memorable - I would have loved to have performed it as I have two very good cellist friends with which I play cello trios. It's just too long and monotonous. The same might be said (though perhaps less so) for the Largo for cello and orchestra which was premiered by Rostropovich the last time he played in public (2003).

The two earlier cello concertos are extremely fine though - people have mentioned the first - portions of which were used in the Exorcist and the Shining! - but the second concerto, which Rostropovich comissioned and premiered (after only 2 weeks of practice time) in 1981 is also very fine indeed - right on the cusp between Pederecki's neo romantic and avant-guard styles. It may be a touch long still, but I find it far more logical and dramatic than the later neo romantic works.

(http://images-jp.amazon.com/images/P/B000088DT6.09.MZZZZZZZ.jpg)
this CD, including an arrangement sanctioned by the composer of the early viola concerto is very good indeed - Arto Noras is one of the cello 'greats', sadly not recognised much outside of Scandinavia.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: MDL on January 09, 2008, 05:39:45 AM
Has anyone heard his second opera, Paradise Lost? I haven't, but I get the impression that's one lo-o-o-o-ong slog.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mark G. Simon on January 09, 2008, 05:48:52 AM
I taped Paradise Lost off the air when it was first broadcast, some time in the late 70s. I thought it pretty impressive for the first 15 minutes or so, but the music didn't change very much over the next couple hours.

In fact everything Penderecki has written since the mid 70s is made up entirely of chromatic scale fragments, a few notes up, then a few notes down, a few notes up again, and so on. Sometimes he does it better than others, but it's always the same basic thing.
Title: Re: Penderecki Violin Concerti
Post by: greg on January 09, 2008, 05:57:14 AM
Does anyone have an opinion of Penderecki's VIOLIN CONCERTI (1 or 2)?


the 1st is better.


In fact everything Penderecki has written since the mid 70s is made up entirely of chromatic scale fragments, a few notes up, then a few notes down, a few notes up again, and so on. Sometimes he does it better than others, but it's always the same basic thing.
"extensive use of chromatic plus the interval of a tritone"
knowing that, i'm able to transcribe many of his melodies  ;D
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on January 09, 2008, 06:21:49 AM
Has anyone heard his second opera, Paradise Lost? I haven't, but I get the impression that's one lo-o-o-o-ong slog.

Actually, I loved it. But that might have been partly due to the great production. Also - it was a long time ago...

I think some of his later stuff is more than OK ("some" meaning "very little" in this context 0:)). (Besides, his early music wasn't exactly the most complicated stuff ever written either... ::)) Of those later pieces, I especially like the Credo. And those movements of the 8th that I've heard were surprisingly good too. What I find odd though is that just a couple of months ago, back in October 2007, the man said in an interview he still hadn't finished his 8th - had only half of it completed - and didn't know when it would be done. But the Naxos recording features Drabowicz who died in March 2007! What the hell is happening? Also: the recording is only about 6 minutes longer than the performance I posted. ??? But during that interview he clearly stated that what is about to be performed is very far from completion, as the whole thing would be more than twice as long (the interview I'm talking about was given right before that performance). I'm suspecting foul play: this has happened before with his Polish Requiem which was "first" recorded by Polskie Nagrania but in the next couple of years he continued adding on to it, and the final piece was much longer... :-\
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: greg on January 09, 2008, 06:24:07 AM
Actually, I loved it. But that might have been partly due to the great production. Also - it was a long time ago...

I think some of his later stuff is more than OK ("some" meaning "very little" in this context 0:)). (Besides, his early music wasn't exactly the most complicated stuff ever written either... ::)) Of those later pieces, I especially like the Credo. And those movements of the 8th that I've heard were surprisingly good too. What I find odd though is that just a couple of months ago, back in October 2007, the man said in an interview he still hadn't finished his 8th - had only half of it completed - and didn't know when it would be done. But the Naxos recording features Drabowicz who died in March 2007! What the hell is happening? Also: the recording is only about 6 minutes longer than the performance I posted. ??? But during that interview he clearly stated that what is about to be performed is very far from completion, as the whole thing would be more than twice as long (the interview I'm talking about was given right before that performance). I'm suspecting foul play: this has happened before with his Polish Requiem which was "first" recorded by Polskie Nagrania but in the next couple of years he continued adding on to it, and the final piece was much longer... :-\
crazy stuff..... maybe he'll make the extended version of his 8th later and call it his 6th? The absence of a 6th really bothers me.....
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on January 31, 2008, 03:25:17 PM
Hope you guys appreciate having a seer on board! ;D

Today in Warsaw a new, expanded version of the 8th Symphony was given its premiere performance. This new version is not the definitive one yet. The composer repeated in an interview that the final version will be about 70 minutes long. The current version is in 3 large movements - it has a new, slightly expanded and re-orchestrated finale + an additional new Eschenbach setting.

Other news (from the same interview): the composer is currently working on a Horn Concerto. He is also getting ready to write a 3rd String Quartet (I always considered Der unterbrochene Gedanke to be that but apparently I was wrong). He did mention the 6th Symphony! (He is not planning to write more than 9 of them, BTW.) The 6th is probably going to be a one-movement piece, an elegy for a dying forest. He is probably going to get it done once the concerto and quartet are finished. He is also thinking about two opera projects, both of them generally conceived quite a long time ago: Fedra and an opera for children.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Brewski on January 31, 2008, 03:28:01 PM
Hope you guys appreciate having a seer on board! ;D


I certainly do!  Wow, thanks for the info...

--Bruce
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: MDL on February 02, 2008, 04:52:12 AM
The new Naxos recording of Symphony No.8 gets a pretty negative review in the March Gramophone. I don't think it's as bad as the reviewer claims, but I can't say I was bowled over by it. However, there's enough of interest to encourage a few more listens, so I haven't given up on it yet.

The performance of the Dies Irae is great and the Psalms of David is pretty good, even if the syncopations of the third movement aren't as well judged as the old Wergo recording. I hope Naxos has plans to record Utrenja and Kosmogonia.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mark G. Simon on February 02, 2008, 07:00:13 AM
He did mention the 6th Symphony! (He is not planning to write more than 9 of them, BTW.)

And why should he, when all he has to do is keep adding to the ones he's already got?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on February 04, 2008, 11:48:07 AM
The performance of the Dies Irae is great

You mean "on its own" or are you comparing it to a specific different performance?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: MDL on February 05, 2008, 02:22:27 AM
You mean "on its own" or are you comparing it to a specific different performance?

I've got two other recordings, conducted by Czyz and Kawalla. You're a real Penderecki enthusiast, so I assume you have both of those already! The Wit is better recorded than either. If it's not quite as intense as the Czyz, it's much better than the boxy, unatmospheric Kawalla.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: greg on February 05, 2008, 11:01:58 AM
Hope you guys appreciate having a seer on board! ;D

Today in Warsaw a new, expanded version of the 8th Symphony was given its premiere performance. This new version is not the definitive one yet. The composer repeated in an interview that the final version will be about 70 minutes long. The current version is in 3 large movements - it has a new, slightly expanded and re-orchestrated finale + an additional new Eschenbach setting.

Other news (from the same interview): the composer is currently working on a Horn Concerto. He is also getting ready to write a 3rd String Quartet (I always considered Der unterbrochene Gedanke to be that but apparently I was wrong). He did mention the 6th Symphony! (He is not planning to write more than 9 of them, BTW.) The 6th is probably going to be a one-movement piece, an elegy for a dying forest. He is probably going to get it done once the concerto and quartet are finished. He is also thinking about two opera projects, both of them generally conceived quite a long time ago: Fedra and an opera for children.
Excellent to hear, Maciek!
I hope he does get to 9..... if history likes to repeat itself  >:D...
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on February 06, 2008, 02:52:34 PM
I've got two other recordings, conducted by Czyz and Kawalla. You're a real Penderecki enthusiast, so I assume you have both of those already! The Wit is better recorded than either. If it's not quite as intense as the Czyz, it's much better than the boxy, unatmospheric Kawalla.

Thanks. 8) I've never heard the Kawalla (and after that succinct review - I don't want to ;D).

BTW, I just hate it that many of my favorite recordings of these "contemporary" works have to retreat before newer ones because of sound issues. Eg. it's the same with my favorite Lutosławski First (under Krenz): it's a great. joyful interpretation but the sound is distant and muffled - it immediately loses ground when put alongside Wit's Naxos recording (which is also excellent but too tense for my taste). I keep running into this problem with Czyż (who happens to be one of my 2 favorite Polish conductors - the other is Krenz, of course ;D) - his recordings from the 50s and 60s are not old enough to be really "historical" (yet?) and not young enough to be up to today's technical standards...

Sorry for going OT. ;D
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: greg on June 24, 2008, 03:47:12 PM
anyone read this interview here?
http://www.bruceduffie.com/penderecki.html

Extremely interesting read from the master.......
in fact, i think i'll have to read and reread this one, especially the part where he explains his process of composing....

oh, and too bad he isn't going to write an Ocarina Concerto!  ;D

Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on June 25, 2008, 07:40:14 AM
Thanks for the link! 8)

What are the pieces he's talking about when he mentions the Czech language??
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: greg on June 25, 2008, 09:36:06 AM
I don't know, he's probably had several different works sung in Czech, so he probably just means any of them, instead of specific ones.


Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on June 25, 2008, 09:41:45 AM
I hate to come across as an ignoramus, but here, it can't be helped... 0:) Obviously, he has to have something important in mind, but I'm not aware of a single Pendercki piece with a Czech text! :o Help me out here, somebody!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: greg on June 25, 2008, 01:48:37 PM
Lol, i thought YOU were the expert  ;)

Perhaps they have had special performances in the Czech Republic were the original Latin text is translated, maybe? Or maybe he is talking theoretically? Or maybe he's working on a 9th symphony, which is sung in Czech?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on June 25, 2008, 02:44:33 PM
But he clearly states that the language of the text influenced the work itself.

I guess he must mean the Hymn to St. Adalbert. I've never heard the piece, but given that St. Adalbert was Czech, it would seem logical...
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: greg on June 25, 2008, 02:50:41 PM
But he clearly states that the language of the text influenced the work itself.

I guess he must mean the Hymn to St. Adalbert. I've never heard the piece, but given that St. Adalbert was Czech, it would seem logical...
Well, there you go, that must be it. There's probably no recordings to check, though- no results at Amazon.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Dundonnell on September 26, 2008, 01:51:14 PM
I am sorry to be any sort of nuisance and I apologise if this has been covered before but it is late at night and I am tired :)

My head is spinning trying to get a handle on the Penderecki concertos :) I have just ordered a cd of the Clarinet and the Flute concertos.  But........are these the same work with a different solo instrument? And......how many other of his concertos are actually direct reworkings of other concertos?

If anyone has any help to offer in posting a short guide to the Penderecki concerto minefield, I would be most grateful! :)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: not edward on September 26, 2008, 02:21:39 PM
I am sorry to be any sort of nuisance and I apologise if this has been covered before but it is late at night and I am tired :)

My head is spinning trying to get a handle on the Penderecki concertos :) I have just ordered a cd of the Clarinet and the Flute concertos.  But........are these the same work with a different solo instrument? And......how many other of his concertos are actually direct reworkings of other concertos?

If anyone has any help to offer in posting a short guide to the Penderecki concerto minefield, I would be most grateful! :)
I don't guarantee I have this 100% right, but I believe both the viola concerto and the flute concerto have been arranged for clarinet and orchestra. Presumably this would mean your disc had the clarinet version of the viola concerto and the original version of the flute concerto.....
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on September 26, 2008, 02:32:41 PM
I haven't heard a lot of his music yet but his late chamber works kick all sorts of arse, far superior to his early stuff.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: gomro on September 26, 2008, 04:49:55 PM
I haven't heard a lot of his music yet but his late chamber works kick all sorts of arse, far superior to his early stuff.

As much as I like the De Natura Sonoris twins and some of the other pieces, I much prefer late Penderecki to the earlier works.  He has stated that he feels the later pieces are "more important," and that he dropped much of his avantgardeisms (sheesh! That's not a word!) to write "music with a human face." It certainly has that.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Dundonnell on September 26, 2008, 04:53:58 PM
As much as I like the De Natura Sonoris twins and some of the other pieces, I much prefer late Penderecki to the earlier works.  He has stated that he feels the later pieces are "more important," and that he dropped much of his avantgardeisms (sheesh! That's not a word!) to write "music with a human face." It certainly has that.

I agree with you but it is a very unfashionable and minority view here and with the critics :(
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: greg on September 26, 2008, 04:59:04 PM
I am sorry to be any sort of nuisance and I apologise if this has been covered before but it is late at night and I am tired :)

My head is spinning trying to get a handle on the Penderecki concertos :) I have just ordered a cd of the Clarinet and the Flute concertos.  But........are these the same work with a different solo instrument? And......how many other of his concertos are actually direct reworkings of other concertos?

If anyone has any help to offer in posting a short guide to the Penderecki concerto minefield, I would be most grateful! :)
When I see Penderecki's thread all of a sudden at the top, I almost get a heart attack. I start thinking that the next post I see is going to be a death report........
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Dundonnell on September 26, 2008, 05:17:41 PM
 ???

Are you saying that all that needs to be said about Penderecki the living composer has been said?

'cos it hasn't :) I need my questions answered :)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 26, 2008, 10:53:44 PM
I haven't heard a lot of his music yet but his late chamber works kick all sorts of arse, far superior to his early stuff.

If you're referring to the Sextet and the Clarinet Quartet, then I agree about their @ss-kicking qualities. He seems to have a real knack for chamber music, why doesn't he compose more of it?  ???
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mark G. Simon on September 27, 2008, 03:59:18 AM
Chamber music with clarinet kicks @ss by definition.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: not edward on September 27, 2008, 04:05:53 AM
If you're referring to the Sextet and the Clarinet Quartet, then I agree about their @ss-kicking qualities. He seems to have a real knack for chamber music, why doesn't he compose more of it?  ???
Agreed about those two. I'd add in the string trio, which has a bite and concision often missing from KP's oeuvre.

On the other hand, I find the second violin sonata flabby, predictable and diffuse. Three out of four isn't bad, though.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 27, 2008, 04:15:42 AM
Agreed about those two. I'd add in the string trio, which has a bite and concision often missing from KP's oeuvre.


I'd also add the Divertimento for Cello. Lots of fun for the listener, a real workout for the cellist, and rather haunting at times.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: greg on September 27, 2008, 10:47:03 AM
???

Are you saying that all that needs to be said about Penderecki the living composer has been said?

'cos it hasn't :) I need my questions answered :)
no, i hope not. But I think the Curse of the 9th might have an effect on him........
Title: Re: Penderecki Violin Concerti
Post by: Sef on September 27, 2008, 05:59:44 PM
For me, both are rambling, intermittently beautiful, but too loosely-structured for my taste.

For people interested in this composer, Naxos is about to release the Eighth Symphony ('Lieder der Verganglichkeit') on a disc with the Dies Irae and Aus den Psalmen Davids. When I heard this symphony, I felt it was one of Penderecki's more convincing recent works, so I'll be looking forward to reacquainting myself with it.
I was listening to the Naxos Violin 1 & 2, then borrowed both from the library, and grappled with them both for a while. #2 is actually growing on me right now. Have you watched this series on youtube - starting with this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8u2QviNbj7o
?

Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: jowcol on October 08, 2008, 05:29:36 AM
I'm curious what feelings people here may have about Penderecki's Actions, which is a semi-improvised work featuring a who's who of the european free Jazz scene in 1971. A review of the album is here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/music/release/f3n8/

Personally, it is one of my favorites of his more avante-garde period.  The fractured, explosive solo Terje Rypdal unleased on electric guitar was amazing, and the overblown horns in the beginning were way cool.  The only drawback was the bass walk which, compared to some of the stuff other bassist were doing at the time, seemed a bit dated and out of place.   Since I've long felt that some of the best 60s and early 70s avante-garde came from the jazz world, it was very enlightening to hear both forces join.

The Don Cherry on the flip side was a bit more uneven-- not quite on the level of some of his previous work, but still a worthy flip side-- back when albums had sides.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mark G. Simon on October 08, 2008, 05:34:41 AM
no, i hope not. But I think the Curse of the 9th might have an effect on him........

First he has to overcome the curse of the 6th!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: not edward on October 08, 2008, 05:57:40 AM
I'm curious what feelings people here may have about Penderecki's Actions, which is a semi-improvised work featuring a who's who of the european free Jazz scene in 1971. A review of the album is here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/music/release/f3n8/

Personally, it is one of my favorites of his more avante-garde period.  The fractured, explosive solo Terje Rypdal unleased on electric guitar was amazing, and the overblown horns in the beginning were way cool.  The only drawback was the bass walk which, compared to some of the stuff other bassist were doing at the time, seemed a bit dated and out of place.   Since I've long felt that some of the best 60s and early 70s avante-garde came from the jazz world, it was very enlightening to hear both forces join.

The Don Cherry on the flip side was a bit more uneven-- not quite on the level of some of his previous work, but still a worthy flip side-- back when albums had sides.
I've always meant to hear this piece, but haven't ever got around to it.

(I just wish the coupling of the name Don Cherry with avant-garde experimental jazz didn't make me laugh--as I'm sure it does to other viewers of Hockey Night in TorontoCanada.)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Guido on October 08, 2008, 06:26:39 AM
I am sorry to be any sort of nuisance and I apologise if this has been covered before but it is late at night and I am tired :)

My head is spinning trying to get a handle on the Penderecki concertos :) I have just ordered a cd of the Clarinet and the Flute concertos.  But........are these the same work with a different solo instrument? And......how many other of his concertos are actually direct reworkings of other concertos?

If anyone has any help to offer in posting a short guide to the Penderecki concerto minefield, I would be most grateful! :)

I only know about the cello concertos, but I'll post what I just happened topost on another forum this morning on the matter:

Quote
...I myself am not a huge fan in general of his music, but he has contributed 6 large scale cello concertos of one form or another - 2 bona fide cello concertos, an authorized arrangement of the viola concerto, an early sonata for cello and orchestra which was later revised to produce the first concerto (but remains as a stand alone work), a concerto grosso for three cellos and orchestra (2001) and his latest piece called simply 'Largo' which Rostropovich played the last time he appeared in public as a cellist (as well of course as the ubiquitous Dvorak cello concerto).

This new Naxos release of the latter three works (two of which are premiere commercial recordings) is what has sparked my thought on his output. I find his ideas on composition and his 'liberation' from the infamous avant guardist to the post modern romanticist he is today quite interesting, and there are certainly more than a few decent works in his output. But a lot of it is rather dull Mahlerian noodling imho, and it doesn't quite do it for me. I wished the triple concerto (or rather the concerto grosso) were better, as that is a set of forces that particularly excites me, but it just isn't that good (at least from the recording I have already heard). The Largo is better I think (it's shorter!) but even here, despite some good music there seems to be a lot of padding. I look forward to the Naxos CD of these two works.

For me undoubtedly the best cello work is the Second cello concerto - an enormous piece that perfectly bridges the avant guard and post modern romantic periods in his creative output. You can even see it happening within the piece. As was so often the case, Rostropovich somehow inspired the composer to produce the absolute best that he was capable of - I need hardly mention that Shostakovich's concertos, Lutoslawski's, Dutilleux's, Britten's, Vainberg's, Tischenko's, Hoddinott's concertps etc. etc. are all amongst the best and most important pieces in their respective composer's output (each according to their own level of talent of course). The same is true here - The Second concerto is a hugely impressive and undoubtedly highly emotionally engaging score, whether one likes his style or not. Astonishingly, (though perhaps not anymore, as the astonishing stories are so numerous with regards to Rostropovich) he learned the whole score and findish solo part in only 2 weeks (the day he got it to the day of the premiere). The first concerto I also like, much tougher on the ear though but not really at the same level as the second concerto...

Here's the CD, which I have of course ordered. I will let you know if my opinins on the two late works change dramatically... I somehow doubt they will, but the artists here are all superb, so who knows. Ato Noras is a particular favourite of mine and is quite committed to Penderecki's movements music, having recorded the viola concerto and two cello concertos before. A truly superlative artist.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Penderecki-Works-Cellos-Orchestra-Krzystof/dp/B001F1YBUI/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1223432360&sr=8-2

This stuff about the late chamber music interests me greatly - will have to czech it out.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on October 08, 2008, 07:18:08 AM
Holy crap they have a video of the Sextet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rddTU2zp5YI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJmdQ6CBfU0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eKTazKUPUg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBStMga1pGY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNdRtRhsSoQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bTVqfsAoF0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBUZWNDc5fI

The last part seems to be missing thought. This is awesome all the same. Anybody knows where this is from? I'd like to have the whole thing on my computer.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on October 09, 2008, 12:08:02 PM
Still no one with definite information on Penderecki's clarinet and flute concerto "minefield"?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: greg on October 09, 2008, 02:34:48 PM
Holy crap they have a video of the Sextet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rddTU2zp5YI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJmdQ6CBfU0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eKTazKUPUg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBStMga1pGY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNdRtRhsSoQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bTVqfsAoF0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBUZWNDc5fI

The last part seems to be missing thought. This is awesome all the same. Anybody knows where this is from? I'd like to have the whole thing on my computer.
Thanks!



Still no one with definite information on Penderecki's clarinet and flute concerto "minefield"?
I had taped the flute concerto after requesting it from an internet radio broadcast, but I made a dumb mistake. Maybe I told everyone about this already?....
I had that and a few other things on one side of a tape- including some Harbison songs. My friendwas trying to make some music that combines rock and rap (even though that's pretty much been done extensively already) so he said to send me a tape of me playing guitar. I recorded it on the other side. He loved it, but kept on forgetting to bring it back. It was the around end of school... during the last day of school, he's like, "Ahhhh..... man, i left on the bed."
So I haven't heard the flute concerto for 2 years now  :(
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Dundonnell on October 10, 2008, 12:56:38 PM
Still no one with definite information on Penderecki's clarinet and flute concerto "minefield"?
 

Yes, thanks for returning to my question of some days ago :) I may however be able to answer the question myself since I have the two concertos on order(Dux) and, presumably, the notes will clear up the confusion :)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on October 10, 2008, 01:22:09 PM
Depends on who translated them... ::)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 11, 2008, 05:49:20 AM
A dreary October day here (no surprise, eh?) and I decided I was in the right autumnal mood to listen to the Sextet, which I hadn't done in a couple of years.

Has anyone else noticed that the long 2nd movement appears to be in the form of a dumka, the old Slavic ballad form that Dvorak liked to use? A dumka consists of a slow melancholy tune that is interrupted at regular intervals by passionate outbursts in a much faster tempo. That's exactly what KP is doing here. I don't know if it was deliberate or it just came out that way, but this is the only classical dumka I know outside the ones Dvorak wrote.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on October 11, 2008, 11:28:12 AM
Tchaikovsky, Janacek, Martinu, Chopin, Balakirev and Moniuszko all wrote dumkas, and I'm sure they weren't the only ones.

There are two senses of the word though. The dumkas by Chopin and Moniuszko were closer to the original Ukrainian folk ballad (long phrases, overall sad, melancholy aura, see Duma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duma_(epic)#Musical_charateristics) or Дума (http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Дума#.D0.9C.D1.83.D0.B7.D0.B8.D1.87.D0.BD.D0.BE-.D1.81.D1.82.D0.B8.D0.BB.D1.96.D1.81.D1.82.D0.B8.D1.87.D0.BD.D1.96_.D0.BE.D0.B7.D0.BD.D0.B0.D0.BA.D0.B8_.D0.B4.D1.83.D0.BC)). Even today, in Polish the association is automatic: dumka = sad Ukrainian folk ballad. (In 19th century Polish the word "duma" was sometimes used to mean any sort of sung epic folk poem; but the diminutive "dumka" always meant specifically a Ukrainian ballad).

I think Dvorak developed his own form (which other composers, esp. Czech, might have picked up).

I have no idea what the relation of all this to Penderecki's piece is. Or if there's any relation at all.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 15, 2008, 03:29:50 AM
I have been listening to Penderecki's Lieder der Vergänglichkeit ("Songs of Transience"), mentioned earlier on this thread, which he also calls his 8th Symphony, though I would argue it is not terribly symphonic. Oh well, Mahler also called Das Lied von der Erde a symphony, and it feels like the model for this one.

I like the Lieder. Both musically and in terms of its choice of texts (German, mostly Romantic) it feels very like a piece by one of those post-Mahler expressionist composers, like Zemlinsky or Berg or Schreker. I can easily imagine hearing this in down-at-the-heels 1920s Vienna, wondering where all the good times had gone and deriving enjoyment from the poignancy of the emotions on display. One or two critics have complained about this time-capsule aspect, but since I like this style, and I think it is deployed effectively here, I have no complaints.

On the whole, another triumph for the Naxos/Wit team. Though I wish they hadn't been so cheap as to make the song texts available only on the Internet.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Dundonnell on October 16, 2008, 05:32:19 AM
Having now returned from my holiday in sunny Stockholm(during which I encountered absolutely no drunken Swedes ;D) I can attempt to catch up with what has been happening on this forum.

Going away for even a few days does present a problem. It is positively intimidating to find so many posts on subjects of interest and on which I would have liked to comment :(

Anyway, Penderecki!

From what I can establish his concertante works include-

Fonogrammi for Flute and Chamber Orchestra(1961)

Violin Concerto(1963-withdrawn; material reused in the Capriccio for Violin and Orchestra of 1967)

Sonata for Cello and Orchestra(1964)

Capriccio for Oboe and strings(1964)

Concerto for Violino Grande and Orchestra(1967-revised as Cello Concerto No.1 of 1972)

Capriccio for Violin and Orchestra(1967-material extracted from the withdrawn Violin Concerto of 1963; version for Cello and Orchestra
    in 1968?)

Cello Concerto No.1(1972-revision of Concerto for Violino Grande of 1967)

Violin Concerto No.1(1974-76; revised 1987)

Cello Concerto No.2(1981/82)

Concerto for Viola and Orchestra(1983; versions for Viola and Chamber Orchestra in 1984, for Cello and Orchestra in 1989, for Clarinet
    and Orchestra in 1997)

*Concerto for Viola and Chamber Orchestra(1984-revision of Viola Concerto of 1983)

*Concerto for Cello and Orchestra(1989-revision of Viola Concerto of 1983)

Concerto for Flute and Chamber Orchestra(1992; version for Clarinet and Chamber Orchestra in 1995)

Violin Concerto No.2 'Metamorphosen'(1992/95)

*Concerto for Clarinet and Chamber Orchestra(1995-revision of Concerto for Flute and Chamber Orchestra of 1992; also sometimes
      referred to as Sinfonietta No.2 for Clarinet and Strings)

*Clarinet Concerto(1997-revision of Viola Concerto of 1983)

Music for Alto Flute, Marimba and Strings(2000)

Piano Concerto 'Resurrection'(2001/02; revised 2007)

Concerto Grosso No.1 for Three Cellos and Orchestra(2000/01)

Largo for Cello and Orchestra(2003; also sometimes referred to as Adagio for Cello and Orchestra)

Concerto Grosso No.2 for Five Clarinets and Orchestra(2004)

Horn Concerto(2008)

* refers to works which are versions of previous concertos

I may have made errors or there may be ommissions :) Please feel free to correct ;D
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Dundonnell on October 17, 2008, 11:42:16 AM
Hello? Anyone?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mark G. Simon on October 17, 2008, 01:20:57 PM
Hey! A concerto for five clarinets! That's gotta be cool!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on October 17, 2008, 04:47:41 PM
You've done some impressive research. I wish I could contribute, but my knowledge of Penderecki's concertos is limited. (Quite, quite limited, as I see now, pondering that lengthy list...) I wonder, though, how good can a concerto for a given instrument be, how idiomatic, if you're able to quickly rewrite it for something else? 0:)

(Just mean ol' me.)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Dundonnell on October 17, 2008, 04:55:09 PM
You've done some impressive research. I wish I could contribute, but my knowledge of Penderecki's concertos is limited. (Quite, quite limited, as I see now, pondering that lengthy list...) I wonder, though, how good can a concerto for a given instrument be, how idiomatic, if you're able to quickly rewrite it for something else? 0:)

(Just mean ol' me.)

I do tend to agree with you. That is to say, not that the research is impressive :-[ but that this habit of Penderecki's of rewriting/recycling his concertos does make one wonder ;D I have never heard the Viola Concerto in its original form but I have heard the versions for cello and for clarinet.
The truth of the matter is that Penderecki has not actually written a Clarinet Concerto per se. Both of the Clarinet Concertos are versions of previous works(cello and flute).

It is confusing for the record buyer but at least I think that I have got it straight now....unless of course the new Horn Concerto is...... :)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: greg on October 17, 2008, 06:46:12 PM
Hey! A concerto for five clarinets! That's gotta be cool!
So let me guess, he just puts the clarinet section at the front where the soloists normally are?  ???
Or are they added- meaning the clarinet section stays, too?  :o
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Dundonnell on October 17, 2008, 07:23:19 PM
http://www.schott-music.com/shop/9/show,175799.html

This is the link to the piece on Penderecki's publisher's website. It seems to have been performed only once(in Madrid).

I regret that I am not familiar enough with the German abbreviations to determine whether or not there are the usual clarinets in the orchestra in addition to the 5 soloists. Certainly in the first performance 2 of the soloists were (unnamed) members of the orchestra.

Perhaps someone else could help?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mark G. Simon on October 17, 2008, 07:51:39 PM
There are 5 clarinet soloists in front of the orchestra. 3 of them play the usual B flat and A clarinets. The 2nd doubles also on Eb clarinet. 2 of them play bassett horns, and the 2nd of those doubles on bass clarinet.

The orchestra contains 2 flutes, the 2nd of which doubles on piccolo, 2 oboes, the 2nd of which doubles on English horn, 2 bassoons, four hours, 2 trumpets, 3 trombones. There are 4 percussionists, harp, celesta and strings. There are no clarinets in the orchestra.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Dundonnell on October 18, 2008, 04:43:53 AM
Thank you for that clarification!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on November 24, 2008, 08:35:02 AM
The Third Quartet premiered over here, in Warsaw on Friday - as part of the composer's birthday celebrations.

No, I did not go and did not listen to the radio broadcast (assuming there was one). Just wanted to notify those who follow Penderecki's catalog.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: greg on November 24, 2008, 12:41:25 PM
The Third Quartet premiered over here, in Warsaw on Friday - as part of the composer's birthday celebrations.

No, I did not go and did not listen to the radio broadcast (assuming there was one). Just wanted to notify those who follow Penderecki's catalog.
Nice to be updated. Never saw a third quartet coming!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: MDL on March 16, 2009, 08:08:57 AM
Looks like Naxos are releasing a recording of Utrenja in April 2009, part of Wit's ongoing cycle. Bring on Kosmogonia and The Devils of Loudun!




Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Brewski on March 16, 2009, 08:23:27 AM
Looks like Naxos are releasing a recording of Utrenja in April 2009, part of Wit's ongoing cycle. Bring on Kosmogonia and The Devils of Loudun!

Cool, what great news!  I still have the LP recording below, which I haven't heard in decades.  (And forgot until locating this cover scan that there's a Persichetti on there, too--which I don't think I've even listened to!)

--Bruce
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Dundonnell on March 16, 2009, 08:39:12 AM
I must say that I prefer the Persichetti on that (reissued Japanese) cd despite the fact that it is Persichetti's most 'modern-sounding' symphony. Earlier Penderecki is not music I can come to terms with :(
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: MDL on March 16, 2009, 08:53:55 AM
Cool, what great news!  I still have the LP recording below, which I haven't heard in decades.  (And forgot until locating this cover scan that there's a Persichetti on there, too--which I don't think I've even listened to!)

--Bruce

I wish they'd reissue that on CD, even if it is only the first half of Utrenja. The LP I heard (borrowed from a libary) didn't include the Perischetti. Never heard of him (or her).
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Brewski on March 16, 2009, 09:01:23 AM
I wish they'd reissue that on CD, even if it is only the first half of Utrenja.

Oh, I didn't even realize that!  :o 

Vincent Persichetti (1915-1987) was also known as an educator (and may have been better known for that).  He was quite prolific, but I haven't heard much of his work--mostly choral pieces. 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Dundonnell on March 16, 2009, 09:42:15 AM
I wish they'd reissue that on CD, even if it is only the first half of Utrenja. The LP I heard (borrowed from a libary) didn't include the Perischetti. Never heard of him (or her).

The LP has been reissued on cd- a Japanese imported cd I am afraid(all the text is in Japanese)-I got it via Arkiv.

For a lot more on Persichetti-

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,10630.0.html
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: MDL on March 16, 2009, 09:53:20 AM
The LP has been reissued on cd- a Japanese imported cd I am afraid(all the text is in Japanese)-I got it via Arkiv.

For a lot more on Persichetti-

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,10630.0.html

I didn't know about that site until now. Thanks for the heads-up.  :)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Cato on March 16, 2009, 10:08:06 AM
Cool, what great news!  I still have the LP recording below, which I haven't heard in decades.  (And forgot until locating this cover scan that there's a Persichetti on there, too--which I don't think I've even listened to!)

--Bruce

Is that the complete Utrenja?  I recall that cover art! 

I have the score to Part I, which shows how one can notate a riot!  There are also some very nice chant-like sections using quarter-tones.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Dundonnell on March 16, 2009, 03:14:03 PM
Is that the complete Utrenja?  I recall that cover art! 

I have the score to Part I, which shows how one can notate a riot!  There are also some very nice chant-like sections using quarter-tones.

Only Part I on the Japanese cd. For the complete 'Utrenja' you will need the new Naxos disc.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on March 16, 2009, 03:38:39 PM
Or the old Polskie Nagrania. $:)

(http://merlin.pl/Krzysztof-Penderecki-Vol-2-Jutrznia_Stefania-Woytowicz-Bernard-Ladysz-Kazimierz,images_big,13,PNCD018.jpg)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: MDL on March 16, 2009, 03:47:02 PM
There was also a Koch recording of Utrenja conducted by Penderecki himself, but it's never been released in the UK. Maybe it'll be reissued by Dux Records (although they go for £20 a pop in HMV!), although a budget Utrenja on Naxos would probably scare off any competition. I thought Wit's St Luke Passion was excellent, so I'm really looking forward to the new recording.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on March 16, 2009, 05:00:09 PM
Dux Records (although they go for £20 a pop in HMV!)

Oh, wow! That just blows one's the mind! They go for about 30 zlotys here (1/3 that price). I think it might be reasonable to pay the little extra for shipping and get them from a Polish internet store (like www.gigant.pl or www.merlin.pl). I'm not sure if they have English interface versions but everything should be pretty straightforward, since both are to some extent amazon clones (especially merlin, though it doesn't show as much anymore, because merlin does not update its graphic design etc. as often as amazon does).
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: MDL on March 18, 2009, 12:50:26 AM
BOLLOCKS! BIG HAIRY BOLLOCKS!! Penderecki's The Devils of Loudun is being staged in Cracow this weekend. Had I known, I might have been able to plan a little Polish trip. Too late now. Any of our Polish friends going?


http://www.krakow-info.com/events.htm
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on March 18, 2009, 02:19:59 AM
Actually, the premiere was in December (http://www.opera.krakow.pl/otwarcie_en.php). I don't find the photos of the production particularly enticing (you can find them here (http://www.opera.krakow.pl/?id=188&sid=48) - and that's also the place to keep track of upcoming performances - unfortunately, it seems this weekend will be the end of it for the season).
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: MDL on March 18, 2009, 02:43:09 AM
Actually, the premiere was in December (http://www.opera.krakow.pl/otwarcie_en.php). I don't find the photos of the production particularly enticing (you can find them here (http://www.opera.krakow.pl/?id=188&sid=48) - and that's also the place to keep track of upcoming performances - unfortunately, it seems this weekend will be the end of it for the season).

Thanks for the link! I've never seen The Devils live and I understand that Penderecki revised the score and added scenes after the Hamburg recording and film were made (and both of those chopped several minutes off the end of the unrevised score anyway). I would have loved to hear the full opera and see a stage production, no matter how pedestrian! There are a few very short, tantalising snippets on YouTube, but they really are absolutely tiny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnIiprY7wrU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbY1_FTjhAc&feature=related
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on March 18, 2009, 06:13:10 AM
I would have loved to hear the full opera and see a stage production, no matter how pedestrian!

Yeah, I guess I know what you mean.

Thanks for digging up those Youtube clips! :D
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on March 30, 2009, 09:45:05 AM
For a multimedia version of Penderecki's Seven Gates of Jerusalem (a.k.a. Symphony no... 7?) go here (the Polish TV site) (http://www.tvp.pl/kultura/muzyka-powazna/siedem-bram-jerozolimy/wideo?sort_by=2&sort_desc=true&start_rec=0&listing_mod=&empty_websites=false). The film is in 5 parts, labeled "(cz. 1)", "(cz. 2)" etc. respectively. Click on the image or title of each video to start watching it. In Ubuntu this works best on Firefox with MediaPlayerConnectivity and a multimedia player of your choice (I've checked MPlayer, VLC, Totem xine and SMPlayer, Kaffeine seems to be having some trouble).

The conductor is Krzysztof Penderecki himself.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Charles on March 30, 2009, 10:52:03 AM
The Utrenja sounds interesting by the title alone. I am fond of Penderecki. I have the St. Luke's Passion on Naxos and I recall really enjoying that music.

I have on the sidelines the Violin Concerto no. 2 Metamorphosen  with Mutter. Has anyone heard this recording and what is your opinion on it?

Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on March 30, 2009, 11:33:48 AM
There are some (very short) remarks on the Mutter disc in the Mutter thread (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,7170.0.html).
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Charles on March 30, 2009, 12:21:11 PM
There are some (very short) remarks on the Mutter disc in the Mutter thread (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,7170.0.html).

Thank you!  :)

Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on April 17, 2009, 12:14:41 PM
Oh, and speaking of chances to hear Penderecki's St Luke Passion: it will be performed at Canterbury Cathedral on 2nd May, as part of the "Polish Season" in Britain, which starts this May and ends May 2010. I guess that will be the opening concert.

Well, not the opening night, strictly speaking. In fact, one of the last concerts of the first "run". More details on the Sounds New festival web page (http://www.soundsnew.org.uk/).
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Brewski on April 22, 2009, 11:42:08 AM
For Penderecki fans, this concert is a year away, but might be worth making plans for.  The Yale School of Music is sponsoring this concert at Carnegie Hall:

April 30, 2010
Carnegie Hall
Penderecki Conducts Penderecki
Four orchestral works spanning his career

Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima (1960)
Capriccio for Violin and Orchestra (1967) - Syoko Aki, violin (who performed it with Penderecki at Yale in 1974)
Concerto for Horn and Orchestra, Winterreise (2008, American premiere) - William Purvis, horn
Symphony No. 4, Adagio (1989) - winner of 1992 Grawemeyer Prize

--Bruce
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on April 22, 2009, 11:57:56 AM
Concerto for Horn and Orchestra, Winterreise (2008, American premiere) - William Purvis, horn

*raises eyebrows*
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on April 22, 2009, 11:58:36 AM
raises in the intransitive sense, so to speak
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Brewski on April 22, 2009, 12:09:12 PM
Does that mean I should start investigating hotel rooms for your visit?  ;D

--Bruce
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: not edward on April 22, 2009, 12:19:12 PM
*raises eyebrows*
I have a bootleg mp3 of this one. I was deeply unimpressed, but can upload it if you'd like.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on April 22, 2009, 12:27:37 PM
Nah, thanks, the title is what really got me interested. I think I'll live without hearing the actual music - especially after that mini-review. ;D

Might be interesting to hear Penderecki himself conduct the Threnody though. But no, Bruce, as much as I think any pretext would be good enough to come over for a visit, I don't think I'll be coming. :-\
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: MDL on May 03, 2009, 01:06:45 AM
Andrew Clements, in his review of Utrenja in the Guardian (01/05/09):

"The performance... is excellent but the music itself is contrived and calculated, as if Penderecki knew he had hit upon a winning formula in the Passion and was only too keen to apply it shamelessly again."

What absolute bollocks! The sound worlds of the Passion and Utrenja are completely different; the Bach-like chorales and doomy Romantic string melodies which are so prominent in the former are completely absent from the latter. Certainly, Penderecki can be accused of recycling ideas in his later neo-Romantic phase, but to my amateur ears, the Passion and Utrenja are as different as Berg's Wozzeck and Lulu.

The new Naxos recording is very good, although it's a shame that the eerie wooden clattering (what the hell is making that noise?) in the second movement of the Entombment, such a striking effect in Ormandy's and Markowski's recordings, is almost inaudible in Wit's.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 03, 2009, 01:26:25 AM
The sound worlds of the Passion and Utrenja are completely different; the Bach-like chorales and doomy Romantic string melodies which are so prominent in the former are completely absent from the latter.

I agree. I had the old Philips recording of Utrenja, and I could never make it through the piece from beginning to end because it was such a sonic assault. The Passion on the other hand is very well-paced and laid out in a highly coherent fashion. I think having to work within the Passion narrative forced Penderecki to pay more attention to the dramatic structure.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: MDL on May 03, 2009, 01:33:38 AM
I agree. I had the old Philips recording of Utrenja, and I could never make it through the piece from beginning to end because it was such a sonic assault.

Erm, fair enough!   :-\ Actually, I do prefer the first half of Utrenja to the second which can be a bit much if you're not geared up for it.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on May 03, 2009, 03:26:53 AM
the eerie wooden clattering (what the hell is making that noise?) in the second movement of the Entombment

I believe the sound is made by a kołatka (or probably more than one of them). I'm not sure what the correct English word is. Maybe it's clapper?? In catholic liturgy (not sure about elsewhere) bells are not tolled and the organ is not played during the period between the Gloria at the Mass of the Lord's Supper (evening before Good Friday) and the Gloria of the Easter Vigil (evening of Holy Saturday). A kołatka (clapper?) is a wooden device that is used in place of bells in the period between those two Glorias. At least that's the tradition in Poland. So in that period during Transubstantiation clappers (if that's the word) are used instead of bells. The sound forms a very distinctive part of the aural experience of the Easter Triduum.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: MDL on May 03, 2009, 12:30:55 PM
I believe the sound is made by a kołatka (or probably more than one of them). I'm not sure what the correct English word is. Maybe it's clapper?? In catholic liturgy (not sure about elsewhere) bells are not tolled and the organ is not played during the period between the Gloria at the Mass of the Lord's Supper (evening before Good Friday) and the Gloria of the Easter Vigil (evening of Holy Saturday). A kołatka (clapper?) is a wooden device that is used in place of bells in the period between those two Glorias. At least that's the tradition in Poland. So in that period during Transubstantiation clappers (if that's the word) are used instead of bells. The sound forms a very distinctive part of the aural experience of the Easter Triduum.

Excellent! Thanks for the reply. Clappers it is (or should that be they are?). As a nominal C of E and practising atheist, I know hardly anything about bog-standard Roman Catholic rituals, so the habits of eastern European Catholics are a complete mystery to me.

Edit: No offence meant to anyone's religious affiliations.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: snyprrr on May 04, 2009, 12:20:34 AM
I'm curious, what is P's most "morbid" score, and for my purpose I'm choosing his early...I'm gonna call it "morbid Romanticism" phase for considersation:

The Dream of Jacob (74)
Adagirtto (79)

Violin Cto1 (77)

Sym2 "Christmas" (80)
(what IS Sym3???)

Cello Cto2 (82)
Viola Cto (83)

I believe there's a gap of 7-8 yrs before the next onslaught, no? I used to have the Dream and Adagietto (thanks to Penguin Gd?) and apparently they didn't make a great impression. The Violin Cto1 almost made too much of an impression. That was the most evil classical I'd heard; though, it waaas long, and the ideas maybe seemed too simple (or simplistic) to sustain the structure.

So, and rightfully so, I've been scurred to try the Sym2 or Cello2, and I think I know what to expect (this is really no one's fav P, no?), but lately I've just been craving something turgid and dreary and grey and ugly and anonymous. I think I've heard the Viola Cto, but if I did, I'm sure I dismissed it, but I can't remember.

Which one of these pieces is the dubious masterpiece of morbid Romanticism. Or, does another composer hold the key? You must admit, it's a pretty specific sound. Petterrssonn (ack, I just totally forgot how to spell his name!) has way too much life to compete.

Segerstam comes close.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: snyprrr on May 30, 2009, 12:02:00 AM
I've just heard Cello Cto. No.2 again for the first time (Slava/Erato), and I am quite pleased. It's a fairly amorphous 33min. single mvmt. work, but has quite a few episodes, with a lot of percussion bits. It's in P.'s Romantic mode, though not as "morbid" as I'd hoped, but muuuch better than ever expected. The Violin Cto. No.1 it is NOT. I have a feeling the Viola Cto. won't be as good (haven't heard it in years), but I'm still holding out hope for the "Christmas" symphony.

All 80s Cello Concertos No.2 (Schnittke/Halffter/Penderecki, etc.) written for Rosty seem equally dark to me. Ugly, which means I like it.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: monafam on August 11, 2009, 05:50:25 AM
A lot of diversity about Penderecki on this thread...

I must say that he is quickly becoming one of my favorite composers.  While my collection is relatively small (Symphonies 2, 3, & 4; Cello Concerto No. 2, Threnody, Credo, etc.) I've liked most of what I have heard. 
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on August 11, 2009, 11:13:22 AM
snyprrr, sorry this post comes so many months later. I'm not exactly sure I know what you'd call "morbid" music but I think the 2nd Symphony might indeed fit the bill, at least to some extent. It's exuberantly romantic and rather dark, desperate music on the verge of depression or maybe a rage attack. Or something like that.

The Viola Cto I would not recommend. At least based on the very hazy recollection that I have... ;D
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: MDL on September 09, 2009, 05:12:53 AM
Wit has been busy topping up his Penderecki catalogue. This is from the Naxos website's list of recording sessions. I've no idea when these two CDs will be released, but I'm especially looking forward to hearing new recordings of Kosmogonia and Canticum Canticorum Salomonis.


September & November 2009

Antoni Wit 

PENDERECKI
Orchestral album: Horn Concerto, Partita for Cembalo and Orchestra [to couple with Jacob’s Awakening, Anaklasis, De Natura Sonoris No. 1 to 9, all recorded as of April 2009]

Choral album: Kosmogonia, Canticum Canticorum Salomonis, Veni Creator, Strofy [to couple with St Adalbert Hymnus & Cherubin’s Song (choir a capella)—both recorded as of April 2009]

Stefan Dohr, horn (Principal Horn, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra)
E. Stefanska-Lukowica, harpsichord • Olga Pasichnyk, soprano & other singers
Warsaw Philharmonic Choir & Orchestra • Antoni Wit, conductor
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on September 09, 2009, 12:26:36 PM
Great news! Yes, Kosmogonia and Canticum are the ones I'd be especially eager to hear too. And Pasichnyk/Pasiecznik - always and in any repertoire. ;D

BTW, has Wit recorded Fluorescences yet?? (I don't really follow the Naxos catalogue.)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: not edward on September 09, 2009, 01:31:11 PM
Yes, it was on the CD with the 3rd symphony.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on September 09, 2009, 01:38:57 PM
Yes, it was on the CD with the 3rd symphony.

Thanks. 8)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on December 31, 2009, 01:59:50 PM
From a newly discovered (though no longer functioning) blog (http://sandflyer-titb.blogspot.com/2009/04/krzysztof-penderecki-chamber-music-46th.html):

1st String Quartet (1960), 2nd Sonata for violin and piano (1999), 2nd String Quartet (1969), Sextet for piano, violin, viola, cello, clarinet and French horn (2000)

Performers: Silesian String Quartet II (with Szymon Krzeszowiec), Kaja Danczowska - violin, Sławomir Cierpik - piano, Artur Pachlewski - clarinet, Wiesław Grochowski - French horn, Robert Marat - piano

This was a Warsaw Autumn 2003 concert.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: MDL on August 17, 2010, 01:25:10 PM
Some lovely person has posted on YouTube the last 20 minutes of so of The Devils of Loudun from a 1985 production by the Opera Royal de Wallonie

I'm gutted that this production ends at the same point in the score as the Philips/Hamburg CD/DVD recordings, shaving off a few minutes of Penderecki's choral coda. Is that the practice for all productions of The Devils?

I've not had time to study these clips in great detail for various reasons. But I'm astounded and delighted to see them on YouTube.



I'm trying to watch this, but the other half is giving me the evil eye, or at least the "what is that hideous din?" eye. Thankfully, the other half is going away for a few nights soon, so I'll be able to listen to what I want.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCEYzjAFPT8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCEYzjAFPT8).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrzHMacvXIo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrzHMacvXIo)



Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on January 25, 2011, 04:30:19 PM
A live performance of the Polish Requiem can be currently listened to at the France Musique site here (http://sites.radiofrance.fr/francemusique/em/concert-soir/emission.php?e_id=80000056&d_id=420002041) (click headphones icon to the right to start). Available till Feb 20th, I believe.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: karlhenning on August 05, 2011, 09:27:02 AM
For a multimedia version of Penderecki's Seven Gates of Jerusalem (a.k.a. Symphony no... 7?) go here (the Polish TV site) (http://www.tvp.pl/kultura/muzyka-powazna/siedem-bram-jerozolimy/wideo?sort_by=2&sort_desc=true&start_rec=0&listing_mod=&empty_websites=false). The film is in 5 parts, labeled "(cz. 1)", "(cz. 2)" etc. respectively. Click on the image or title of each video to start watching it. In Ubuntu this works best on Firefox with MediaPlayerConnectivity and a multimedia player of your choice (I've checked MPlayer, VLC, Totem xine and SMPlayer, Kaffeine seems to be having some trouble).

The conductor is Krzysztof Penderecki himself.

Opinions on the piece?  I see a Naxos recording, but . . . .
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: ibanezmonster on August 06, 2011, 04:54:16 AM
I had no idea Karajan conducted Penderecki!  :o :)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: lescamil on August 06, 2011, 03:42:01 PM
The only other CD recording of Polymorphia that I know of is Herbert Von Karajan

Antoni Wit and Henry Czyz also recorded Polymorphia. I personally prefer Antoni Wit's version the most. I hated his recording of the Threnody, though.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Roberto on August 07, 2011, 06:49:45 AM
There are some searing performances in this admirable 2-disc collection of Penderecki's orchestral pieces of the 1960s and early 1970s. Anaklasis, Eminationem and the Thernody are definite high points; the rest is mostly dense and anguished, including the Symphony No. 1 - the highwater mark of Penderecki's own brand of modernism.
Great collection! I have to mention that Penderecki is a conductor also. I have this CD with him and I like it:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51O8f2elF7L._AA300_.jpg)
I've wrote a review about it to Amazon.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 08, 2011, 05:21:26 PM
Time to revive this thread...

Bought a ton of Penderecki tonight:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004D3II.01.L.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004HYN6.01.L.jpg)
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004R7N7.01.L.jpg)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00008IHVW.01.L.jpg)
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000I2IUTS.01.L.jpg)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000ZJVI6Q.01.L.jpg)
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000U7V9EY.01.L.jpg)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000675OFS.01.L.jpg)
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000DJEM2.01.L.jpg)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B001U1L9UI.01.L.jpg)
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B001F1YBUI.01.L.jpg)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B003VC51WQ.01.L.jpg)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on August 08, 2011, 08:51:37 PM
Penderecki maintains that he is a symphonist first and foremost.

If so, then I think he misjudged his own talent. He doesn't have the unerring sense of form (usually) to build convincing large-scale orchestral structures. Personally, I wish he would write more chamber music. That said, I enjoy symphonies 3 and 8, even if the latter is more an orchestral song cycle than a symphony.

Bought a ton of Penderecki tonight:

Some good discs there, like the above-mentioned symphonies, and the great St. Luke Passion. I don't see my favorite Naxos Penderecki disc, the one with the Sextet. Do you have it already?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 08, 2011, 08:58:51 PM
Some good discs there, like the above-mentioned symphonies, and the great St. Luke Passion. I don't see my favorite Naxos Penderecki disc, the one with the Sextet. Do you have it already?

No, I'm not interested in chamber music. In fact, it should noted that I seldom go for a composer's chamber music at all. It has to be of exceptional quality for me to even consider it. My favorite chamber music is by Bax, Ravel, Debussy, and Poulenc. I have very little patience for much else.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: lescamil on August 08, 2011, 09:39:06 PM
Well, I'd say that the Sextet and the Violin Sonata No. 2 are of such exceptional quality that you should definitely check them out. I saw the Violin Sonata No. 2 performed years ago with Midori on violin, and I have not been moved as much as I was that night by a chamber work.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 09, 2011, 07:24:08 AM
High time indeed; it'd been been dead for the whole of 24hrs  :D
Penderecki may be way past the possibility of revival, however, what with his  having been dead for nearly four decades.

Perhaps he might enjoy a belated epiphany and realize a born-again composer is worth more than a born-again Christian 8)

During his brief spell as a talented musician (the 1960's basically) Penderecki had an ability to draw new sounds out of old instruments that surpassed Xenakis.
It is also fascinating the intelligence with which he worked his intention through a quasi-abstract language, as clearly as simple sentences in the English language (or any other language that may be native to the listener)

Since he lost his talent he became a pompous ass, self-importantly imitating his card-board image of the great masters of the past, little aware he is providing only a satire of himself.

I'm not sure if I can get onboard with a lot of your comments which to me seem more like rant than anything. Penderecki has said his reasons for abandoning his earlier avant-garde style and that reasoning is it was ultimately a dead-end street. The great thing is he's gained more listeners that support him in doing this. He's also divided many people that were following his earlier style, but Penderecki, as all great composers, divided the lines and continues to remain controversial.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DavidW on August 09, 2011, 07:47:05 AM
Cool purchases MI!  I love the 3rd symphony and the 4th!!!  I picked up the 8th from ebay this summer, but it's still in my to listen pile.  He is a great symphonist, I hope you enjoy his works.  btw the St Mark Passion, despite being one of his most famous works, I find to be hard listening.  The 2nd symphony is one of the easier works, it's a good place to get started.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 09, 2011, 07:52:12 AM
Cool purchases MI!  I love the 3rd symphony and the 4th!!!  I picked up the 8th from ebay this summer, but it's still in my to listen pile.  He is a great symphonist, I hope you enjoy his works.  btw the St Mark Passion, despite being one of his most famous works, I find to be hard listening.  The 2nd symphony is one of the easier works, it's a good place to get started.

Thanks, Dave. I'm anxious to hear Seven Gates of Jerusalem as I heard 15 minutes of it in a preview on Naxos Music Library. Do you mean St. Luke Passion? I'm also excited to hear his Polish Requiem which is a dark and turbulent work.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DavidW on August 09, 2011, 08:06:16 AM
Thanks, Dave. I'm anxious to hear Seven Gates of Jerusalem as I heard 15 minutes of it in a preview on Naxos Music Library. Do you mean St. Luke Passion? I'm also excited to hear his Polish Requiem which is a dark and turbulent work.

Oh woop sorry Luke not Mark! :D  Yeah his Polish Requiem is great. :)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Brahmsian on August 09, 2011, 08:15:36 AM
Just saying hello, as I want to be a part of this thread.  :D

I'll soon be delving into major Penderecki exploration.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 09, 2011, 08:24:28 AM
Penderecki said lots of stupid things but he did not say his 1960's idiom was a dead end. He said he had drawn all that he could out of it. The truth is, his talent (in its original, creative phase) died out in the early seventies. Since then he has tried to keep up appearences through bad, ill-constructed, pompous and vulgar imitations of pre-modern masters.  Nor is the popularity of his later work much of an argument on his behalf as value in the Fine Arts (unlike Junk Food, Wal-mart items and democratic politics) is determined by an elite of people of taste, not by a general public that does not always distinguish clearly between Classical Music, easy listening - and Star Wars.

[ $:)]  Penderecki may not have said verbatim that the avant-garde was a dead-end street, but he sure as hell hasn't bothered to return to that style has he? No, he had to find other avenues to express his music. He seems perfectly happy composing large-scale choral works right now and God bless him for it.

Here's what he said:

'The avant-garde gave one an illusion of universalism. The musical world of Stockhausen, Nono, Boulez and Cage was for us, the young - hemmed in by the aesthetics of socialist realism, then the official canon in our country - a liberation...I was quick to realise however, that this novelty, this experimentation and formal speculation, is more destructive than constructive; I realised the Utopian quality of its Promethean tone'.

He concluded that he was 'saved from the avant-garde snare of formalism by a return to tradition.'
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Lethevich on August 09, 2011, 09:05:11 AM
and also the masters of recent times - like Lutoslawski and Dutilleux and Messiaen and Boulez. Penderecki, Shostakovich and Arvo Part simply do not compare, no more than artificial diamonds compare with earth-generated diamonds.

If they were French would it help? ;)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: karlhenning on August 09, 2011, 09:14:49 AM
Nyuk-nyuk! : )
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on August 09, 2011, 09:35:53 AM
[ $:)]

One point which his posting does illustrate, is how people who like Penderecki Mark I often dislike Penderecki Mark II, and vice versa. Me, I like some of both of his iterations (and dislike some). I do have to admit though that what he was doing in his early period was more interesting and adventurous - an original voice. But I'm glad he didn't just stop composing when that voice started to run dry - there are at least a few of those later works I wouldn't want to be without.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DavidW on August 09, 2011, 09:59:38 AM
I like the tonal Penderecki more than the avant garde Penderecki.  I think I agree with Toucan in just a little bit, just a little itty bit... he's no Lutoslawski.  Lutoslawski is a better composer... but... so what?  I don't enjoy composers based on ranking.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DieNacht on August 09, 2011, 10:46:28 AM
Overall he has IMO been repeating himself way too much in the later decades, even as regards the motifs of the individual works; the later symphonies and most of the later concerti are often examples. Pettersson, Nørgård, Rochberg or even Artyomov for instance have more varied things to say, I think. But the "Te Deum" (1980) is a major and very impressive piece, a favourite, which I wouldn´t be without.
 
Would be nice with some Chandos-like recordings of the symphonies; the sound of the Naxos ones seem a bit dry, making the music even simpler ...
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: karlhenning on August 09, 2011, 10:47:39 AM
. . . But the "Te Deum" (1980) is a major and very impressive piece, a favourite, which I wouldn´t be without.

I need to revisit that . . . it didn't make much of an impact on me when I first heard it, but that was decades ago, and my ears are different now.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Lethevich on August 09, 2011, 10:55:44 AM
I have tried but can't really feel the "regressive is bad" argument. I don't like most of Penderecki's recent music because I simply find it to be quite uninteresting, but any composer who can write something like this 8th symphony still has some legs. I admire it more than love it, but it's a piece in which I feel that the composer has written something meaningful - not really in any sense of innovation or particular exquisiteness, but because nobody else has written a piece like this. The natural comparison is Das Lied von der Erde or Shostakovich's 14th, but the atmosphere is the composer's own - a result of decades of writing good choral music, although not neccesserally any better than his early works, simply different, enjoyable and I'm glad it was written.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: not edward on August 09, 2011, 10:58:23 AM
I've never been particularly drawn to much of the avant-garde Penderecki, which to me is very much painted in broad brush strokes, with too much surface effect without a lot of underlying logic to make it a rewarding repeat listen. This is probably an unfair critique of this period of his output (I'd say it applies to Gorecki's avant-garde period too) but in my mind his work form this period is dwarfed in stature by the somewhat more conservative but much subtler contemporary works of Lutoslawski and Bacewicz.

I can take or leave much of his later works, which to me are often very repetitive and sit in the composer's own personal comfort zone; however I keep listening as every now and then a work like the Sextet crops up, where Penderecki seems to push outside his safe area to create something more ambitious.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DieNacht on August 09, 2011, 11:35:07 AM
Is that to be understood as a moral or a creative accusation against Shostakovich, or both ?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 09, 2011, 12:25:41 PM
To apply the word "tradition" to composers like Shostakovich, later Penderecki and Arvo Part implies a corruption and a subversion of the meaning of the word "tradition."

Shostakovich, Penderecki, and Part are all apart of the classical tradition whether you want to believe it or not. If anything, composers like Boulez, Xenakis, Stockhausen, etc. represent a degradation from the tradition by forcing their "intellectual" music on a listener. Shostakovich, Penderecki, and Part get regular performances while some orchestras have to sandwich a Boulez or Stockhausen piece into a concert program just so it may get heard.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on August 09, 2011, 12:49:25 PM
Just a reminder:

The GMG Golden Rule
Please treat other members of this forum with courtesy and respect. By all means, discuss and argue the topic at hand, but do not make personal attacks, belittle, make fun of, or insult another member.

(I've marked my intrusions in some of the previous posts with a: [ $:)].)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Brahmsian on August 09, 2011, 03:00:15 PM
Just added 15 Penderecki discs to my 'wish list'.   ;D :D

I think it is almost time for Naxos to issue a box set.  Oh well, at $7.99 CDN a disc, how can one complain?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 09, 2011, 03:01:47 PM
Just added 15 Penderecki discs to my 'wish list'.   ;D :D

I think it is almost time for Naxos to issue a box set.  Oh well, at $7.99 CDN a disc, how can one complain?

Yeah, I'm seriously surprised they haven't yet, Ray.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 11, 2011, 08:46:53 PM
On my first go around with Penderecki I have to say I'm pretty underwhelmed at the moment. Maybe I'm just tired and not giving the music the attention it deserves, but I have felt completely nothing from his music yet. I'm a pretty optimistic person by nature, but listening to his music just brings me down, which is why I don't listen to Pettersson's music much. :) But even in Pettersson's better music there is relief from the onslaught of dissonance. Okay, so far I've heard the first volume of orchestral works on Naxos which features works like the 3rd symphony and the famous Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima. I've only heard the first disc of his Polish Requiem. I knew what I was getting into when I bought all of these recordings of his music, but I honestly don't think he's going to be a composer I listen to very much. Hopefully, the next couple of days will go better, but I am glad I have a good chunk of his music in my collection. Speaking of downers, is it time for me to revisit Schnittke yet? ;) :D
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on August 11, 2011, 10:11:40 PM
You don't like the 3rd Symphony? It's one of the few Neo-Romantic works that sticks with me.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: MDL on August 17, 2011, 01:04:36 PM
Dux has just issued a new recording of the (rather boring) 4th Symphony, Adagio. 31 minutes of music without a coupling on a full-price+ disk; £17 in HMV! What a ripoff! Especially since Naxos's Wit recording is coupled with the 2nd Symphony for a third of the price.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DavidW on August 17, 2011, 01:45:56 PM
I think I missed this before... that's too bad MI I really like the 3rd symphony... but I understand what you're saying about it being both dissonant and dark.  That's why also I don't think that neoromantic is the appropriate word to describe Penderecki's tonal works.  They are not romantic.  I call them neotonal because the neo- reminds us that it is a new kind of tonal after the time of atonal music, and tonal instead of romantic or classical because while the music has the more traditional tonal center it doesn't share much with pre-20th century music.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 17, 2011, 05:43:55 PM
I think I missed this before... that's too bad MI I really like the 3rd symphony... but I understand what you're saying about it being both dissonant and dark.  That's why also I don't think that neoromantic is the appropriate word to describe Penderecki's tonal works.  They are not romantic.  I call them neotonal because the neo- reminds us that it is a new kind of tonal after the time of atonal music, and tonal instead of romantic or classical because while the music has the more traditional tonal center it doesn't share much with pre-20th century music.

I'm hoping to sink my teeth into more of the Penderecki recordings I bought, but right now my mind is preoccupied with Messiaen, Britten, Bartok, and Hindemith.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DavidW on August 18, 2011, 03:59:31 AM
I'm hoping to sink my teeth into more of the Penderecki recordings I bought, but right now my mind is preoccupied with Messiaen, Britten, Bartok, and Hindemith.

I look forward to more of your impressions... post here please.  I miss many posts on the listening thread because it goes too fast.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 18, 2011, 07:01:13 AM
I look forward to more of your impressions... post here please.  I miss many posts on the listening thread because it goes too fast.

Will do, Dave.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: lescamil on September 27, 2011, 04:41:41 AM
Penderecki does the same or similar thing with different settings. All of his music is quite dark and gloomy. Some of his symphonies have real refinement and emotion, but his concertos are the opposite, just noise. When there is a reason to all the ugliness like in the Hiroshima piece it makes sense, but if there is no reason, then why keep on doing it? Can't he compose something spiritual and emotional for a change? Why all the darkness and ugliness? Didn't Shostakovich do that way better anyway? Penderecki is one-sided, you always know what to expect with a piece of his, it will always be dark. Baczewicz was dark too but not always. She was way better composer than Penderecki in my opinion.

Sounds like you haven't heard anything that Penderecki has composed after 1976. I suggest you listen to to his second symphony, or anything he composed after it. That includes his two violin concertos, the piano concerto, or his second cello concerto. He had sort of the "opposite" musical evolution that Bacewicz had. Both were/are masters, but are beyond comparison.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: ibanezmonster on September 27, 2011, 05:23:52 AM
Can't he compose something spiritual and emotional for a change?

Sounds like you haven't heard anything that Penderecki has composed after 1976.
I'd say most of his stuff after this time period is spiritual and emotional...
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Dundonnell on September 27, 2011, 06:17:29 AM
Three years ago on this Forum I wrote (in a thread called "The Magic of the Poles"- http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,7936.msg208165.html#msg208165)

"I meant the British professional music critics whose reviews of Penderecki's music adorn the pages of the journals that I read. For reasons which are not clear to me the editors of these British journals continually ask hostile critics to review new releases of Penderecki's music. Professor Arnold Whittall of King's College, London, for example, seems to be the person the 'Gramophone' magazine always turns to if there is a new Penderecki disc out. Then we get the same old refrain-"Penderecki has written nothing of value since 1980". "

Nothing has changed in three years. Whittall still reviews the new Penderecki cds...with the same results.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: cilgwyn on October 03, 2011, 08:42:54 AM
Three years ago on this Forum I wrote (in a thread called "The Magic of the Poles"- http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,7936.msg208165.html#msg208165)

"I meant the British professional music critics whose reviews of Penderecki's music adorn the pages of the journals that I read. For reasons which are not clear to me the editors of these British journals continually ask hostile critics to review new releases of Penderecki's music. Professor Arnold Whittall of King's College, London, for example, seems to be the person the 'Gramophone' magazine always turns to if there is a new Penderecki disc out. Then we get the same old refrain-"Penderecki has written nothing of value since 1980". "

Nothing has changed in three years. Whittall still reviews the new Penderecki cds...with the same results.

Ah ha! So,Arnold Whitall's the one who keeps saying that? I wondered who it was.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Dundonnell on October 03, 2011, 10:14:41 AM
I am an unrepentant admirer of the music Penderecki has written since 1980 ;D
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Brahmsian on October 03, 2011, 11:34:05 AM
I am an unrepentant admirer of the music Penderecki has written since 1980 ;D

You should change your user name to 'The Unrepentant Pendereckian'   ;D
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Dundonnell on October 03, 2011, 11:42:18 AM
You should change your user name to 'The Unrepentant Pendereckian'   ;D

Oh, I don't think so. I don't like his music that much. ;D
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: lescamil on October 03, 2011, 03:25:24 PM
I will revisit his symphony with vocals, the seventh. I like atonal vocal music but I usually don't like it just instrumental.

The seventh symphony is very tonal, and it establishes tonalities within the work quite firmly. It even ends with a huge E major chord. Yes, there are some chromaticisms, but it's just one or two steps forward from Wagner and Bruckner, really. Also check out the eighth symphony, which is also very tonal, and is more like a song cycle. Both of these vocal symphonies are very beautiful.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 03, 2011, 03:27:32 PM
Oh, I don't think so. I don't like his music that much. ;D

Yeah, I can't say I'm that big of a fan of Penderecki. I think he has written some good music like his Polish Requiem for example, but honestly I don't think this is music I will return to very often.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Brahmsian on October 20, 2011, 06:14:12 AM
Yup, call me a fan of Penderecki's sound world.  Officially!  :)

I've listened to these three so far, the first disc of music I had already heard previously.  Loved all that I have heard so far!





Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: karlhenning on October 20, 2011, 06:15:51 AM
Go, Ray!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Brahmsian on October 20, 2011, 06:16:23 AM
Go, Ray!

Do you like some of Penderecki's music, Karl?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: jowcol on October 20, 2011, 07:18:56 AM
Yup, call me a fan of Penderecki's sound world.  Officially!  :)

I've listened to these three so far, the first disc of music I had already heard previously.  Loved all that I have heard so far!







Utrenja was a fave a mine in High School--although I loved it, I also had fun playing it at the latter stages of a party where some very drunken Led Zepplin fans would scream for more Zepplin.  It usually got them sobered up and out the door quick.  I also think that Utrenja was responsible for someone quitting the restaurant I worked at. (This is back in the late 70s.)  I had started at this place, got on the wrong side of one of teh managers, and was just given cleanup duty, but they let me play my portable cassette player.  So I was scrubbing out the interior of a walk in refrigerator, and was booming Utrenja as loud as I could, since no one could hear me through the door, and it did give a nice "tomb" like ambiance.

OUt on the floor, some poor sap was having his first night waiting tables, and was getting really worked up and overwhelmed,  The management decided to take away his tables, and use him as a gofer the rest of the night, so that he might get better accustomed.  After sending him back for silverware, glasses, etc, he was sent back to get more Tatar sauce, which let him to the walk-in refrigerator.  I was cleaning away, minding my business, when I turned around and saw him staring at me working his jaw, a tray of tartar sauce in his hands, and stammering out a question about the music.

"You like that? " I answered.  "It's the Entombment of Christ. It's trying to capture the horror of man killing God."

At that, he dropped the tray, and ran out the back door.  He never came back to collect the pay for the 2-3 hours that he worked.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: John Copeland on October 20, 2011, 07:33:06 AM
Utrenja was a fave a mine in High School--although I loved it, I also had fun playing it at the latter stages of a party where some very drunken Led Zepplin fans would scream for more Zepplin.  It usually got them sobered up and out the door quick.  I also think that Utrenja was responsible for someone quitting the restaurant I worked at. (This is back in the late 70s.)  I had started at this place, got on the wrong side of one of teh managers, and was just given cleanup duty, but they let me play my portable cassette player.  So I was scrubbing out the interior of a walk in refrigerator, and was booming Utrenja as loud as I could, since no one could hear me through the door, and it did give a nice "tomb" like ambiance.
OUt on the floor, some poor sap was having his first night waiting tables, and was getting really worked up and overwhelmed,  The management decided to take away his tables, and use him as a gofer the rest of the night, so that he might get better accustomed.  After sending him back for silverware, glasses, etc, he was sent back to get more Tatar sauce, which let him to the walk-in refrigerator.  I was cleaning away, minding my business, when I turned around and saw him staring at me working his jaw, a tray of tartar sauce in his hands, and stammering out a question about the music.
"You like that? " I answered.  "It's the Entombment of Christ. It's trying to capture the horror of man killing God."
At that, he dropped the tray, and ran out the back door.  He never came back to collect the pay for the 2-3 hours that he worked.

Yes.  His music is as scary as hell.  Wierd and wonderful.  Incisive in a shocking way.  In the late 70's, I would have ran away too.  in fact...
****runs away screaming****
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Cato on October 20, 2011, 08:38:31 AM
Yes.  His music is as scary as hell.  Weird and wonderful.  Incisive in a shocking way.  In the late 70's, I would have run away too.  in fact...
****runs away screaming****

I own the score to Part I, and it is interesting to see how Penederecki notated the riot.

The work is one of his better sound-block experimental "Polish school" efforts.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Brewski on October 20, 2011, 08:46:02 AM
Utrenja was a fave a mine in High School--although I loved it, I also had fun playing it at the latter stages of a party where some very drunken Led Zepplin fans would scream for more Zepplin.  It usually got them sobered up and out the door quick.  I also think that Utrenja was responsible for someone quitting the restaurant I worked at. (This is back in the late 70s.)  I had started at this place, got on the wrong side of one of teh managers, and was just given cleanup duty, but they let me play my portable cassette player.  So I was scrubbing out the interior of a walk in refrigerator, and was booming Utrenja as loud as I could, since no one could hear me through the door, and it did give a nice "tomb" like ambiance.

OUt on the floor, some poor sap was having his first night waiting tables, and was getting really worked up and overwhelmed,  The management decided to take away his tables, and use him as a gofer the rest of the night, so that he might get better accustomed.  After sending him back for silverware, glasses, etc, he was sent back to get more Tatar sauce, which let him to the walk-in refrigerator.  I was cleaning away, minding my business, when I turned around and saw him staring at me working his jaw, a tray of tartar sauce in his hands, and stammering out a question about the music.

"You like that? " I answered.  "It's the Entombment of Christ. It's trying to capture the horror of man killing God."

At that, he dropped the tray, and ran out the back door.  He never came back to collect the pay for the 2-3 hours that he worked.

Great story!  ;D Thanks so much for sharing...

--Bruce
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: lescamil on October 20, 2011, 03:47:30 PM
I'll also throw in some words of praise for that story, and also for you having the guts to play it in near public (I would only play it in my car, that's it). Utrenja is definitely one of those works that really hits you in your core, whether you're religious or not. I also own the score for Part 1, and it is a work of art on its own. Penderecki's early works are definitely worth looking at on paper to see how everything is done.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: snyprrr on October 25, 2011, 05:43:18 AM
I am poised for a Penderecki phase. Please help me with what to get.

All I currently have is the EMI 2cd set with the Symphonies 1-2. Here are the works I am considering:

Symphony 2
Symphony 3
Symphony 4

Polish Requiem
St. Luke Passion (used to have Argo)

Utrenya

Dimensions of T&S
(any other earlier vocal/orchestral piece) Te Deum

Violin Concerto NO.1 (I KNOW, I KNOW)
Cello Concerto No.2



The Symphonies 2/4, and the two concertos are on so many issues, it's hard to figure out which one to try.


Anyhow, I'm sure there's someone out there who will hold my hand here. Anyone? ;D
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 25, 2011, 06:00:02 AM
Symphony 3

Get it, if you have nothing against a neo-romantic approach. Only one recording (Naxos).

Quote
St. Luke Passion (used to have Argo)

Again, get the Naxos (Wit) - very dramatic. Have you tried the chamber music (Sextet et al.)?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: petrarch on October 25, 2011, 06:44:02 AM
All I currently have is the EMI 2cd set with the Symphonies 1-2.

Which EMI 2CD set, the one with Symphony 1 or the one with Symphony 2? I don't think there is one with both.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: snyprrr on October 25, 2011, 06:52:37 AM
Which EMI 2CD set, the one with Symphony 1 or the one with Symphony 2? I don't think there is one with both.

Yea, that set has 1-2, Venetian Games, Funeral Music, Livre... you gotta know whi... whooops, sorry, that's LUTOSLAWSKI, haha...

no, it's the EMI 2cd with Threnody, etc.

OY!! ::) Am I gaga, or kookoo?? ??? ??? ???



Anyhow, yes, I NEED some KP. All I have is that one EMI set with Threnody. I'm pretty well hip with whatever style he's doing. Not so much interested in the Chamber Music at this time... would rather play catch up with the 60s-80s.

It seems there are things ONLY available on Naxos? Flourescences? Polymorphia? Dimensions?(NOT)...

Which Symphony out of 2-4 is The One?? 3?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: snyprrr on October 25, 2011, 08:22:03 PM
I've gotten myself into a real CDCDCD moment here. Here's what I'm considering:

Christmas Symphony (w/Brudowicz(?)- Olympia)

Christmas Symphony/Violin Concerto 1 (PolNag)

Christmas Symphony 2/4 (Naxos)



Violin Concerto 1/Horn Concerto (Channel)
Violin Concerto 1/ Sym 2 (PolNag)
Violin Concerto 1 (Stern/Sony)
Violin Concerto 1 (Edinger... HOW?? many permutations of this are there??)
Violin Concertos 1/2 (Naxos)
Violin Concerto 1/ Cello Concerto 2 (Orfeo)



Cello Concerto 2 (Orfeo)
Cello Concerto 2 (Erato)



I'm still sifting through the vocal cds. I'd like the Ormandy Utrenja.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: snyprrr on October 25, 2011, 08:23:05 PM
Penderecki's disjointed discography gives me the CDCDCD jitters!! ??? :-[ :-\ :-* ;D
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Brahmsian on October 26, 2011, 05:59:05 AM
Penderecki's disjointed discography gives me the CDCDCD jitters!! ??? :-[ :-\ :-* ;D

Get Polymorphia!  A wonderful, incredibly frightening, eerie piece.  The loud pizzicato strings at one point invokes an image of a large mutant deadly spider, racing on a hardwood floor, making its way closer to its impending victim!  :o
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: MDL on October 26, 2011, 02:34:14 PM
This recent Polskie Nagrania release includes Fluorescences and Polymorphia

(http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m465/Phil1_05/PendereckiFluorescences.jpg)


I assume these are reissues of the old (and very good) recordings from the '60s.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on October 27, 2011, 12:08:14 AM
I've never used their service (so don't blame me if I'm wrong, or it doesn't work, or you don't like the quality, or whatever), but it seems you can get the disc as a download here: http://www.polskienagrania.com.pl/offer/muzyka_powazna/penderecki._markowski._awangarda/ (http://www.polskienagrania.com.pl/offer/muzyka_powazna/penderecki._markowski._awangarda/).
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on November 02, 2011, 01:19:51 PM
The Czepiel disc might be easier to get in its DUX incarnation: DUX 0475 (http://www.dux.pl/catalogue/results/details/?pid=167). (Unless of course these are two different recordings made by the same performers of the exact same repertoire - but something tells me that that is not the case. ;D) I haven't listened to it in ages, but I remember not being very fond of the Threnody recording (was it on the slow side, or am I misremembering?).

Actually, DUX has quite a few Penderecki discs in its catalog.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: snyprrr on November 02, 2011, 05:33:13 PM
This recent Polskie Nagrania release includes Fluorescences and Polymorphia

(http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m465/Phil1_05/PendereckiFluorescences.jpg)


On order!


I've been listening to the DoubleForte in anticipation, and realize that I probably haven't heard this stuff too actively until now. KP reminds me of the 'sounds' of, say, Xenakis, but, with a completely different way of putting the notes down in space. KP doesn't use IX's mathematical approach, and I feel KP (as was IX's criticism of the Polish School) perhaps sounds more...mm... well, since the 'science' isn't there, the only left to do is to hear the actual sounds, and how they are juxtaposed. Still, I find his treatments compelling. The cavalcade of sounds in the first movement of the Symphony still sound pretty groovy to these ears (cough, cough,... haha :P ;D).

The thing I like about this EMI, and I suppose also with 'Awangarda', is the vintage sound, so apt for music of such an incidentally creepy sound. I can't wait! ;)

Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: snyprrr on November 02, 2011, 08:03:33 PM
I think that's right. Penderecki had an ability to draw new sounds out of old instruments that equalled Xenakis, but made a freer, more spontaneous use of these sounds. What more. Penderecki's sounds (1960's sound that is) are earthy, nourishing even.

Yes, 'earthy' is a good word,... the grit in the strings.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933): Symphony No.2
Post by: snyprrr on November 04, 2011, 08:38:28 PM
I finally heard the 'Christmas' Symphony No.2, and, I must say, this is the Pettersson Symphony I wish he had written. But nevermind, I think this Music is perfect as it is.

As I had hoped, nothing is glaring, or really obvious, and it is a perfect example of Beautiful Anonymity. The famous musical quote is handled as well as I would have hoped, and, the mood itself is unique, I think: it's not depressing, but actually Triumphal, in a very very very subdued way. I listened to it on a bright and sunny day and it still sounded fine!

I got the OLYMPIA disc (which incredible music by Bruzdowicz), and, it's ok, but the samples I hear of Penderecki himself leading the same orchestra on EMI sound music scarier. That one sounds like the The One. I'm wondering if this recording I have is the same one on Polskie Nagriana, with the VC 1?

Anyhow, is it fair to say that this Symphony puts Schnittke to shame? I think it's a Masterpiece, frankly (whereas,  I don't know if I can call the VC 1 that).

Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933): Symphony No.2
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 05, 2011, 12:01:07 AM
I finally heard the 'Christmas' Symphony No.2, and, I must say, this is the Pettersson Symphony I wish he had written. But nevermind, I think this Music is perfect as it is.

Funny, I was not particularly impressed by this one. (But then, I don't like Pettersson either.) Personally I think the 3rd Symphony is a much stronger work - more variety and more fun.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: snyprrr on November 05, 2011, 08:37:24 PM
This recent Polskie Nagrania release includes Fluorescences and Polymorphia

(http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m465/Phil1_05/PendereckiFluorescences.jpg)


Just got this today. Oh, yummy yummy! this is fun. Flourescenes especially I liked, very groovy indeed! I'm going to sit down with this and the EMI when I can and absorb them better, but I do just really like (as in FB 'like') Penderecki's kind of elementary procedures yielding such stark sounds in places.

Dimensions in Time & Silence, also, was quite nice, with the voices really doing fun stuff.

This is bettern Hendrix man! 8) :P :-*
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: snyprrr on November 05, 2011, 08:40:37 PM
Yes it's a bit slow. Perhaps the slowness is a reason for the clarity - he doesn't let us miss a note.

When you say slow?,... I thought that KP on EMI would be definitive , at 9.54. So, I thought you meant slower than that. But now I see that Markowski is 5:50 :o!! Both sound great, but how 'slow' is that other one?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: MDL on November 06, 2011, 03:00:57 AM
When you say slow?,... I thought that KP on EMI would be definitive , at 9.54. So, I thought you meant slower than that. But now I see that Markowski is 5:50 :o!! Both sound great, but how 'slow' is that other one?

5:50? Are you sure? All my Threnodys clock in at about 9+ minutes; Cziepel's is 9:21.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: North Star on November 06, 2011, 03:33:41 AM
Penderecki's own recording of Threnody (EMI) is 10:03.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 06, 2011, 05:04:38 AM
If Penderecki's own recording proves hard to track down then this more recent one will prove a good alternative, not least because it uses very similar forces and Antoni Wit's interpretation is close in spirit to that of the composer, even though the acoustic is far less resonant. The one drawback is the absense [sic] of the text.

My copy has the text.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: snyprrr on November 06, 2011, 07:28:28 PM
Complete with text in four languages; narration is in Latin but not sure the narrator is a native speaker, though:

(http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m465/Phil1_05/Penderecki001.jpg)(http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m465/Phil1_05/Penderecki002.jpg)

 :P

Yummy! ;) ;D

I have been so groovin' to the EMI set and that 'Awangarda' disc. KP gets many extra points for the audacity of pure personality. I'm curious if Psalms of David was modeled after Stravinsky, what with the piano and percussion backdrop?

There is some clipping in some of the tuttis on that new disc. Bad mastering?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: snyprrr on November 13, 2011, 06:24:08 PM
How would you all rate?:

St. Luke's Passion
Dies Irie(?)
Utrenya
Te Deum
Polish Requiem


It's a lot of listening, oy! ::) :-[ ;D
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: snyprrr on November 21, 2011, 08:39:59 PM
Complete with text in four languages; narration is in Latin but not sure the narrator is a native speaker, though:

(http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m465/Phil1_05/Penderecki001.jpg)(http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m465/Phil1_05/Penderecki002.jpg)

 :P

I just got the GEMIni 2cd Penderecki with Sym. 2, Te Deum, and Magnificat. I like the latter work the best, and it is plenty atmospheric. What sounds like the Magnificat?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: snyprrr on November 22, 2011, 07:37:48 AM
You can probably find answers there:

(http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m465/Phil1_05/PendereckiChoir002.jpg)(http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m465/Phil1_05/PendereckiChoir001.jpg)(http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m465/Phil1_05/PendereckiChoir003.jpg)

I've had the solo choral music before, but prefer to have the full orchestra. I'm left with:

St. Luke's Passion: I used to have the Argo disc, and I'm not sure why I sold it.

Dies Irae: I'll see if this is on YouTube.

Utrenya: This is probably the one to go for, no? Ormandy was lost on Ebay last week, so, PolskieNag?

Polish Requiem: I'm probably least interested in this one, though I did like the Lacrimosa on the EMI.


I guess that also leaves The Devils opera...(maybe later... muuuch...)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: lescamil on November 22, 2011, 12:32:17 PM
The Devils of Loudun is a great opera, but it could really, really use another recording. There are some things that just seem rough around the edges in that old Markowski recording that I am sure a great modern Pendereckian conductor like Antoni Wit could bring out, particularly the more sparsely orchestrated arias. I also have the DVD of it, which is the exact same performance as the one on CD, I believe. It isn't a great production, but it at least puts some visuals to the work.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: MDL on November 23, 2011, 01:05:27 AM
The Devils of Loudun is a great opera, but it could really, really use another recording. There are some things that just seem rough around the edges in that old Markowski recording that I am sure a great modern Pendereckian conductor like Antoni Wit could bring out, particularly the more sparsely orchestrated arias. I also have the DVD of it, which is the exact same performance as the one on CD, I believe. It isn't a great production, but it at least puts some visuals to the work.

Marek Janowski conducted the recording, not Markowski. And there are differences between the CD and DVD versions. For example, in the spoken scene (Grandier, De Cerisay, d'Armagnac) following Jeanne's enema, on the CD, Grandier's statement "with love comes hate" is followed by a dramatic high-pitched string cluster. On the DVD, the dialogue and orchestral backing are not synched up in the same way and the cluster is heard earlier, to much less effect. There are several other instances where I'm convinced that a different take has been used for the DVD; eg is Jeanne's vision of Grandier and Ninon slightly different in each version? Maybe it's down to different edits rather than different performances. The slightly peculiar acoustic is identical in the CD and DVD.

But you're right; we desperately need a new recording of The Devils, one that restores the choral coda cut from the end of this recording (why?) and includes the new scenes Penderecki added a few years later.

And regarding the performance on DVD; it might not have been effective on stage, but as a film, I think it is grimly, grubbily effective. And I don't think anyone will be able to top Troyanos's stunning vocal performance.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: lescamil on November 23, 2011, 11:54:13 AM
Ah, Marek Janowski. Sometimes I confuse the names of these Penderecki conductors, especially the Polish ones ending in -ski. Also, yes, I noticed that the coda was cut from the end of the DVD, which I was sorely disappointed in when I saw it.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933): Kanon
Post by: snyprrr on November 23, 2011, 08:37:53 PM
I was pleased to find this piece, Kanon, on the GEMIeni set. At first I thought it was a later choral piece, then what?, then I saw that it was another orchestral piece. And what a piece it is! :o The antiphonal effects (left/right) totally caught me off guard, to the point that I thought my speaker had blown in the car,... and I got that funny feeling like when you lose hearing... ???...anyhow,... Kanon is a great piece in my estimation. No other recording?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: MDL on November 24, 2011, 09:26:19 AM
I've had the solo choral music before, but prefer to have the full orchestra. I'm left with:

St. Luke's Passion: I used to have the Argo disc, and I'm not sure why I sold it.

Dies Irae: I'll see if this is on YouTube.

Utrenya: This is probably the one to go for, no? Ormandy was lost on Ebay last week, so, PolskieNag?

Polish Requiem: I'm probably least interested in this one, though I did like the Lacrimosa on the EMI.


The Naxos/Wit recordings of The St Luke Passion and the Dies Irae are both excellent. Ormandy's Utrenja is very good, but as I've pointed out elsewhere, it's only the first half, The Entombment of Christ. If you want both parts, Naxos/Wit will do, although in many ways, I prefer the old PolskieNag. The Polish Requiem has its moments (the Lacrimosa and some nice clusters in the Lux Aeterna), but most of it is a lumbering bore.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: snyprrr on November 24, 2011, 04:08:22 PM
The Naxos/Wit recordings of The St Luke Passion and the Dies Irae are both excellent. Ormandy's Utrenja is very good, but as I've pointed out elsewhere, it's only the first half, The Entombment of Christ. If you want both parts, Naxos/Wit will do, although in many ways, I prefer the old PolskieNag. The Polish Requiem has its moments (the Lacrimosa and some nice clusters in the Lux Aeterna), but most of it is a lumbering bore.

Will take note. Thanks for the advice.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: lescamil on November 24, 2011, 06:09:42 PM
Regarding Utrenja, I like both the new Wit recording and the old Polskie Nagrania recording. I like the Wit for clarity, but I like the PN for more of a visceral, gritty experience. In my opinion, you need both to really take it in. The Ormandy is great, yes. Shame he didn't do more Penderecki. The coupling of Persichetti's 9th symphony is a great addition, too.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: MDL on November 25, 2011, 12:54:43 AM
Regarding Utrenja, I like both the new Wit recording and the old Polskie Nagrania recording. I like the Wit for clarity, but I like the PN for more of a visceral, gritty experience. In my opinion, you need both to really take it in. The Ormandy is great, yes. Shame he didn't do more Penderecki.

Yup, I agree on every point. I've got the Ormandy on cassette which I recorded from the RCA LP in 1981. Is the CD one of those printed-to-order-only specials?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: MDL on November 25, 2011, 06:30:18 AM
No.

Oh?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: snyprrr on November 26, 2011, 11:07:13 PM
The Naxos/Wit recordings of The St Luke Passion and the Dies Irae are both excellent. Ormandy's Utrenja is very good, but as I've pointed out elsewhere, it's only the first half, The Entombment of Christ. If you want both parts, Naxos/Wit will do, although in many ways, I prefer the old PolskieNag. The Polish Requiem has its moments (the Lacrimosa and some nice clusters in the Lux Aeterna), but most of it is a lumbering bore.

I have really taken to the Magnificat. There is a certain integration there that I'm missing in Utreja, as if this was KP's 'follow up album', and he made it a little more 'listener friendly' (I mean, in the good way! ;)). Out of all the other Big pieces, I think this is the one that has satisfied my certain need for a certain type of sound from KP.

All these Big Choral Works can get a bit much all in one season of listening! ??? :-X :-\ Oy!!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: snyprrr on November 26, 2011, 11:13:42 PM
:btw-

TheWelleszCompany has Paradise Lost up on YouTube. Too long for me. What's the best part? ;D
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: MDL on November 27, 2011, 02:13:06 AM
I have really taken to the Magnificat. There is a certain integration there that I'm missing in Utreja, as if this was KP's 'follow up album', and he made it a little more 'listener friendly' (I mean, in the good way! ;)). Out of all the other Big pieces, I think this is the one that has satisfied my certain need for a certain type of sound from KP.

All these Big Choral Works can get a bit much all in one season of listening! ??? :-X :-\ Oy!!

Penderecki's Magnificat is one of his finest creations. I doubt the EMI recording will ever be bettered, but I'd still love to hear Wit's take on it.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: not edward on January 10, 2012, 04:56:12 PM
This looks like a useful offering from Naxos: http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.572212

Some lesser-known pieces (Intermezzo, Three Pieces in Old Style, Serenade and the Capriccio for oboe and strings), plus the two sinfoniettas (aka the string trio and clarinet quartet in expanded ensembles).
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Cato on March 19, 2012, 02:50:02 PM
SO... will the Symphony #6 ever be finished? 

Or will the present version be it?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: lescamil on March 19, 2012, 02:59:11 PM
Nonesuch Records releases an album of works by Polish composer Krzysztof Penderecki and composer/Radiohead guitarist Jonny Greenwood. The artists' work was presented side-by-side in two concerts in September 2011, highlighting Penderecki's influence on younger composers, at the European Congress of Culture in Wroc aw. In its report on the Congress, which celebrated Poland's presidency of the European Union, London's Independent called Penderecki "Poland's godfather of the musical avant-garde" and Greenwood "the doyen of English art-pop," describing their concert as "rapturously received." The composers went to Kraków's Alvernia Studios immediately after the performances to oversee the recording of the same music, along with one other piece by Greenwood.

The Wroc aw concert included two works by Penderecki dating from the early 1960s: "Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima" and "Polymorphia (for 48 strings)," the latter of which inspired the Greenwood piece on the program, "48 Responses to Polymorphia;" all three are on the Nonesuch record. An additional piece by Greenwood, "Popcorn Superhet Receiver," which was inspired by Penderecki's "Threnody," also was recorded for the album. (Greenwood incorporated material from "Popcorn Superhet Receiver" in his award-winning score for the 2008 film There Will Be Blood, which was also released on Nonesuch.)



I heard this album though NPR and honestly I didn't like either the Greenwood pieces nor the performances given by AUKSO. The Greenwood pieces sounded like cheap imitations of Penderecki's great early works, although Popcorn Superhet Receiver had some interesting variety to it that made it more appreciable. The readings of the Threnody and Polymorphia are too 'nice'. There is none of the raw, visceral power of the old Penderecki-conducted recordings. Don't get this album for another reading of the Penderecki classics. Only get it if you want to hear the Greenwood pieces, which could appeal to some.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: ibanezmonster on March 19, 2012, 08:36:58 PM
SO... will the Symphony #6 ever be finished? 

Or will the present version be it?
The world may never know...
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: CRCulver on March 20, 2012, 12:26:03 AM
I subscribe to Radiohead updates on Facebook. I checked the comments under the various Penderecki announcements to check for "This isn't music, this is noise!" and "Who the fuck is Penderecki?" I wasn't disappointed.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: snyprrr on March 20, 2012, 06:05:56 AM
I subscribe to Radiohead updates on Facebook. I checked the comments under the various Penderecki announcements to check for "This isn't music, this is noise!" and "Who the fuck is Penderecki?" I wasn't disappointed.

LOLZ!

For some reason I now feel that all is right with the world. Things are as they should be?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: The new erato on July 30, 2012, 11:41:39 PM
Naxos are now packaging theiir Penderecki releases in a box. Around 16 GBP for 5 discs, listed under september releases at mdt.co.uk. I will avail myself eventually I think. There's also a new Casella release under La Vecchia.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: snyprrr on July 31, 2012, 07:18:06 PM
I was listening to Flourescenes, and I was starting to become embarrassed by the seeming lack of... something,... complexity? I dunno, but some Penderecki can sometimes seem just a string of sounds. The typewriter and the alarm clock (strawberry?, I wonder...) didn't quite do it for me this time, but there was other stuff I liked. It's like Xenakis but without ANY math whatsoever. Whatever you say about Xenakis, there is always undergirding driving things along to new places; here I noticed my lack of interest based on what sounded like sloppy Composition. And you?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: The new erato on July 31, 2012, 11:17:25 PM
alarm clock (strawberry?, I wonder...)
I like that reference.....I'll go fetch my peppermints.

I know to little of Penderecki, listenes to some of his works in the 70ies/80ies, but little since.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: eyeresist on August 01, 2012, 05:04:32 PM
This is their 2nd box .. symphonies & other orchestral works ..


Ah, good. I wasn't impressed by the long choral works, compared to the instrumental works I know from the EMI discs. I require a bit more structural unity...
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: MDL on November 24, 2012, 08:11:35 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51plm1I11JL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

So who else has heard this? OK, the first two items, Hymne an den heiligen Adalbert and Song of the Cherubim, are pleasant, if slightly anonymous, and I haven't fully got my head around Strophen yet, but I'd been desperate to hear new recordings of the main pieces, and wasn't disappointed.

Canticum Canticorum Salomonis

This little-heard gem is one of Penderecki's finest works. The composer's EMI recording is probably unbeatable in capturing the languid, sensual swoon of the choral writing, but the frequent explosions of tuned metallic percussion err towards distortion in the otherwise brilliantly engineered recording, which still sounds amazing almost 40 years on. In the new Naxos recording, the percussion is less aggressive and more alluring, and Wit's chorus provide a fascinating, quite different take on work's the complex, shifting textures.

Kosmogonia

OK, there is almost nothing in this piece that Penderecki hadn't done in Dies Irae, Utrenja and The Devils, but I still love it. It's a compendium of his finest orchestral and choral effects without the "serious" bits in between. The new recording is extremely impressive, as good as the old Markowski (and it's not often that new performances match the intensity of Markowski's); I was surprised to hear the quiet organ noodling that accompanies the choir's final upwards glissando that I hadn't noticed on the earlier recording.

A stunning release; one of the best in the Naxos Penderecki series. Now, let's hear the Magnificat. And... The Devils of Loudun?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: lescamil on November 25, 2012, 11:51:31 AM
I have that disk and it just follows a pattern that many other Penderecki disks have been following. Once again, the early Penderecki works steal the show. The works composed after 1975 or so always seem to sound rather innocuous and nice, but never really make an impact. One notable exception is the Te Deum from an earlier release. With his early works, it is nice to get a modern recording of these two. I only had Kosmogonia on an old LP, and I always appreciate hearing what Antoni Wit has to do with this. I still like those early, scratchy recordings with Penderecki, Markowski, Czyz, etc conducting, but a modern recording of an early classic should never be passed up. I am eagerly waiting for when someone takes on The Devils of Loudon.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: snyprrr on November 26, 2012, 07:14:05 AM
and I haven't fully got my head around Strophen yet,

Markowski recording is pretty clangorous  and can distort.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: MDL on November 26, 2012, 07:17:21 AM
Markowski recording is pretty clangorous  and can distort.

I wasn't aware there was a Markowski recording of Strophen. I'll give the Wit another go tonight. It just hasn't clicked with me yet.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: MDL on January 18, 2013, 06:30:29 AM
A new production of The Devils of Loudun, in the composer's latest revision, is being performed in Copenhagen, Warsaw and at the Edinburgh Festival!

http://kglteater.dk/whats-on/performances/season-2012-2013/opera/djaevlene-fra-loudun (http://kglteater.dk/whats-on/performances/season-2012-2013/opera/djaevlene-fra-loudun)

http://www.lionelfriend.com/images/thoughts_may2012.pdf (http://www.lionelfriend.com/images/thoughts_may2012.pdf)


Stage: Operaen Store Scene
Title: The Devils of Loudun
Artform: Opera
Performance period: 12. Feb. - 26. Mar. 2013
Duration: Approx. 1 hour 50 minutes. No interval.
Price: 895kr - 125kr
Dates: 12/02, 14/02, 27/02, 05/03, 12/03, 19/03, 24/03, 26/03

Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: lescamil on January 18, 2013, 10:58:59 AM
A new production of The Devils of Loudun, in the composer's latest revision, is being performed in Copenhagen, Warsaw and at the Edinburgh Festival!

http://kglteater.dk/whats-on/performances/season-2012-2013/opera/djaevlene-fra-loudun (http://kglteater.dk/whats-on/performances/season-2012-2013/opera/djaevlene-fra-loudun)

http://www.lionelfriend.com/images/thoughts_may2012.pdf (http://www.lionelfriend.com/images/thoughts_may2012.pdf)


Stage: Operaen Store Scene
Title: The Devils of Loudun
Artform: Opera
Performance period: 12. Feb. - 26. Mar. 2013
Duration: Approx. 1 hour 50 minutes. No interval.
Price: 895kr - 125kr
Dates: 12/02, 14/02, 27/02, 05/03, 12/03, 19/03, 24/03, 26/03

Any idea if this will be broadcast? I'd love to record it.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: MDL on January 19, 2013, 09:57:22 AM
No idea as yet, but I really have to record this. Might go to Edinburgh.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: dyn on January 22, 2013, 12:07:47 AM
i feel like Penderecki (in the early works) is one of the century's few genuine neo-romantics—i.e. actually carrying on the romantic tradition with modern means. the early works seem to me much more powerful & affecting than the later ones, even if he is a bit of a one-note composer; maybe he wasn't inspired by the radical sonorities anymore, but it's hard to deny that the later works have had success among a much narrower niche and lack the visceral power of e.g. Threnody or Polymorphia for a lot of audiences.

on my mind lately because i recently acquired Utrenja which is beautiful. Something that could have only worked once, but still.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: not edward on January 31, 2013, 06:07:47 PM
I see the February Naxos listing has a new Wit/Penderecki disc out, with the flute and piano concertos. I wasn't greatly impressed by the other Naxos recording of the flute concerto but maybe this will be a better option. I was more impressed by the one hearing I had of the piano concerto and may enjoy reacquainting myself with it.

http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.572696
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: MDL on February 01, 2013, 10:08:21 AM
I see the February Naxos listing has a new Wit/Penderecki disc out, with the flute and piano concertos. I wasn't greatly impressed by the other Naxos recording of the flute concerto but maybe this will be a better option. I was more impressed by the one hearing I had of the piano concerto and may enjoy reacquainting myself with it.

http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.572696

I haven't heard the Flute Concerto. I haven't been able to get through the Piano Concerto yet; I tend to lose patience with it about halfway through. The Horn Concerto is quite engaging, though.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 25, 2013, 12:47:45 PM
Here's a rave review of a new issue with all 3 of KP's string quartets, plus the one by Lutoslawski. Anyone heard this yet?

http://audaud.com/2013/04/penderecki-string-quartet-no-1-string-quartet-no-2-string-quartet-no-3-leaves-of-an-unwritten-diary-lutoslawski-string-quartet-royal-string-q-hyperion/
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: not edward on April 25, 2013, 04:04:28 PM
Here's a rave review of a new issue with all 3 of KP's string quartets, plus the one by Lutoslawski. Anyone heard this yet?

http://audaud.com/2013/04/penderecki-string-quartet-no-1-string-quartet-no-2-string-quartet-no-3-leaves-of-an-unwritten-diary-lutoslawski-string-quartet-royal-string-q-hyperion/
Not heard this one; for my complete Penderecki string quartets I've been very happy with the DAFO Quartet on Dux, who couple the three quartets with the string trio, clarinet quartet and Der unterbrochene Gedanke. I might not be quite as ecstatic as the reviewer quoted about the merits of the 3rd quartet, but I do think it's one of his strongest recent works.



The new Hyperion issue does look intriguing, though: I very much liked the Royal's complete Gorecki quartets & felt they were a distinct improvement on the Kronos performances.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: snyprrr on April 25, 2013, 05:19:14 PM
Here's a rave review of a new issue with all 3 of KP's string quartets, plus the one by Lutoslawski. Anyone heard this yet?

http://audaud.com/2013/04/penderecki-string-quartet-no-1-string-quartet-no-2-string-quartet-no-3-leaves-of-an-unwritten-diary-lutoslawski-string-quartet-royal-string-q-hyperion/

That's a very short cd?

Not heard this one; for my complete Penderecki string quartets I've been very happy with the DAFO Quartet on Dux, who couple the three quartets with the string trio, clarinet quartet and Der unterbrochene Gedanke. I might not be quite as ecstatic as the reviewer quoted about the merits of the 3rd quartet, but I do think it's one of his strongest recent works.



The new Hyperion issue does look intriguing, though: I very much liked the Royal's complete Gorecki quartets & felt they were a distinct improvement on the Kronos performances.

The DAFO are culled from two other Dux recordings, with some interesting other stuff.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: The new erato on April 25, 2013, 08:56:17 PM
Here's a rave review of a new issue with all 3 of KP's string quartets, plus the one by Lutoslawski. Anyone heard this yet?

http://audaud.com/2013/04/penderecki-string-quartet-no-1-string-quartet-no-2-string-quartet-no-3-leaves-of-an-unwritten-diary-lutoslawski-string-quartet-royal-string-q-hyperion/
It got an outstanding in the latest issue of the IRR as well.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 26, 2013, 05:45:55 AM
Not heard this one; for my complete Penderecki string quartets I've been very happy with the DAFO Quartet on Dux,

I didn't know that one existed, thanks for mentioning it. And it has the String Trio, which I lack.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: BrianSA on April 26, 2013, 09:43:32 AM
Out of sheer idle curiosity rather than any particular need to know, can anybody here, better informed than me, tell me exactly what's on the go with Penderecki's sixth symphony?  I gather that for some reason it lies in a Petterssonian state of incompletion, and that's as much as I know.  Its absence from my recently acquired Naxos box is an offence to my sense of symmetry and wholeness...

Brian
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: ibanezmonster on April 26, 2013, 09:53:53 AM
I couldn't find anything. He better finish it. It would not be good to go down as the first major composer to completely skip a symphony number.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: BrianSA on April 27, 2013, 06:40:23 AM
Found via random google, dated Jan 30, presumably but not verifiably 2013:

"I understand that Penderecki's Sixth Symphony is to be premiered this
 weekend in München with James Levine as conductor. Would like to hear
 any feedback from anyone who's able to attend."

Can anybody verify or otherwise elaborate on this?

I suppose that when/if the Master ever does get around to finishing it, we can more or less assume that Naxos will be there in the sidelines, ready, willing and able to record it?

Brian
 
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: ibanezmonster on April 27, 2013, 07:22:44 AM
Found via random google, dated Jan 30, presumably but not verifiably 2013:

"I understand that Penderecki's Sixth Symphony is to be premiered this
 weekend in München with James Levine as conductor. Would like to hear
 any feedback from anyone who's able to attend."

Can anybody verify or otherwise elaborate on this?

I suppose that when/if the Master ever does get around to finishing it, we can more or less assume that Naxos will be there in the sidelines, ready, willing and able to record it?

Brian
I was going to post this, except Levine returns to conducting next month. I don't think he has conducted for years, so that post made absolutely no sense.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 01, 2013, 03:45:18 PM
I love The Dream of Jacob! It's a gem. It reminds me of Ligeti's orchestral pieces from the 1960s, but with an added narrative element.

I watched The Shining last night for the first time in decades. Although I knew already that some Penderecki was used on the soundtrack, I had forgotten how extensive that use was. In particular, The Dream of Jacob is played twice almost in its entirety during two crucial (and very creepy) scenes, and you hear bits of it at other times. There's also excerpts from Utrenja and some other pieces, plus music by Bartok and Ligeti.

I think Stanley Kubrick did an awful lot to turn people on to modernist music.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on August 22, 2013, 04:57:36 PM
Some fantastic news for the ChamberNut Penderecki collection.  It is about to increase substantially!!  :)

That is because a very generous gift by John (Mirror Image) is coming my way.  He needs to make room in his library, and all Penderecki must go!   ;D

In all seriousness, thank you so much John!  :)  I am very much looking forward to the arrival of your gift to me.  I very much appreciate it!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 22, 2013, 05:01:12 PM
Haha! You're welcome, Ray! :)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: kyjo on August 22, 2013, 05:17:17 PM
Why, specifically, didn't you like Penderecki's music, John? :)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 22, 2013, 05:27:17 PM
Why, specifically, didn't you like Penderecki's music, John? :)

After his more avant-garde works, I found his turn to tonality to be a step backwards instead of forwards. Also, I don't think he's particularly that interesting of a composer. I had an interest in his music and I hoped that I would gain something positive from the music, but I never did. All of his symphonies, to my simpleton ears, sound the same and employ the same gimmicks and compositional tricks over and over again. I felt his choral works, an area he's highly praised in by critics and listeners alike, lacked warmth and never seemed to rise to the occasion. Penderecki isn't a composer like Schnittke who embraced all of music and continued to grow with it organically and still retain elements of his own style. I also find that there aren't enough contrasts in his music to warrant a deeper listening on my end. There's just not enough 'meat' in his music, so over time I just lost any kind of interest I had in his music and when I do this someone else greatly benefits. :)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: kyjo on August 22, 2013, 05:34:53 PM
After his more avant-garde works, I found his turn to tonality to be a step backwards instead of forwards. Also, I don't think he's particularly that interesting of a composer. I had an interest in his music and I hoped that I would gain something positive from the music, but I never did. All of his symphonies, to my simpleton ears, sound the same and employ the same gimmicks and compositional tricks over and over again. I felt his choral works, an area he's highly praised in by critics and listeners alike, lacked warmth and never seemed to rise to the occasion. Penderecki isn't a composer like Schnittke who embraced all of music and continued to grow with it organically and still retain elements of his own style. I also find that there aren't enough contrasts in his music to warrant a deeper listening on my end. There's just not enough 'meat' in his music, so over time I just lost any kind of interest I had in his music and when I do this someone else greatly benefits. :)

Fair enough. :) No, I cannot say Penderecki is one of my very favorite composers, but I enjoy what he has been doing recently in his return to tonality. His early works are fascinating, but I can't say I really enjoy them.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 22, 2013, 05:39:49 PM
Fair enough. :) No, I cannot say Penderecki is one of my very favorite composers, but I enjoy what he has been doing recently in his return to tonality. His early works are fascinating, but I can't say I really enjoy them.

I'm not necessarily fond of his of early works either but I'll admit they're much more creative than what he's doing now. I don't look at his return to tonality as something that's fascinating. I find it all quite boring actually. I tend to not look at music now as whether it's tonal or atonal but rather there's enough of both worlds to keep my mind locked in. Penderecki just doesn't engage my mind.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: snyprrr on August 22, 2013, 06:06:27 PM
Haha! You're welcome, Ray! :)

Uh, hellllloooooo!!!!!!! Starving artist here!!!!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 22, 2013, 06:11:06 PM
Uh, hellllloooooo!!!!!!! Starving artist here!!!!

I don't know you outside of GMG, snyprrr.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 15, 2013, 12:37:45 PM
Some fantastic news for the ChamberNut Penderecki collection.  It is about to increase substantially!!  :)

That is because a very generous gift by John (Mirror Image) is coming my way.  He needs to make room in his library, and all Penderecki must go!   ;D

In all seriousness, thank you so much John!  :)  I am very much looking forward to the arrival of your gift to me.  I very much appreciate it!

I am very grateful to John, the Penderecki arrived earlier this week.  These 12 beauties (ok, I had 4 of these already), but I will 'pay it forward' and send then to someone who might enjoy them.  Details to follow later.

I will list the gifts that John sent to me (PS - John, I only have 3 discs left to listen to!)  :D :)


















These 8 above are all new to me, and I've only 3 of these discs left to discover for the 1st time!!  :)

The following 4 below I already have in my collection, so if anyone is interested, PM me!







Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 15, 2013, 01:11:21 PM
For a guy who calls himself "ChamberNut," I am very surprised you don't have the disc with the Sextet et al. It's some of his best recent music.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 15, 2013, 01:29:29 PM
For a guy who calls himself "ChamberNut," I am very surprised you don't have the disc with the Sextet et al. It's some of his best recent music.

I do have it actually!  :)  It also includes the Clarinet Quartet, Three Miniatures for Clarinet and Piano, Prelude for Solo Clarinet and Divertimento for Solo Cello.  All fantastic pieces!  :)

I just listed the discs that John (Mirror Image) sent to me.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 15, 2013, 04:19:58 PM
Excellent news, Ray! Glad you're enjoying the music!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: kishnevi on September 15, 2013, 04:38:16 PM
For a guy who calls himself "ChamberNut," I am very surprised you don't have the disc with the Sextet et al. It's some of the best recent music.

FTFY.

Pertinent to the thread, I've got the Naxos CD of the piano and flute concertos waiting to be heard (arrived on Friday).  Do any of you have that one, and if so, any comments?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: kyjo on September 15, 2013, 05:16:41 PM
FTFY.

Pertinent to the thread, I've got the Naxos CD of the piano and flute concertos waiting to be heard (arrived on Friday).  Do any of you have that one, and if so, any comments?

I know you didn't ask me, Jeffrey, but it's a fine disc! The PC is undoubtedly the main attraction; a dramatic, powerful work full of driving intensity. I was less impressed with the Flute Concerto, as it struck me as a bit emotionally detached. Or maybe it's just because I'm not awfully fond of the flute as a solo instrument. :)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 15, 2013, 05:21:51 PM
I know you didn't ask me, Jeffrey, but it's a fine disc! The PC is undoubtedly the main attraction; a dramatic, powerful work full of driving intensity. I was less impressed with the Flute Concerto, as it struck me as a bit emotionally detached. Or maybe it's just because I'm not awfully fond of the flute as a solo instrument. :)

Aho's Flute Concerto may be one of the best concerti written for flute I've heard in quite some time.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: kishnevi on September 15, 2013, 05:25:58 PM
I know you didn't ask me, Jeffrey, but it's a fine disc! The PC is undoubtedly the main attraction; a dramatic, powerful work full of driving intensity. I was less impressed with the Flute Concerto, as it struck me as a bit emotionally detached. Or maybe it's just because I'm not awfully fond of the flute as a solo instrument. :)

I've got about the same reaction to flutes as you do, for works in the last two hundred years.   18th century seems to fit the flute better in my ears, for some reason.   This is, actually, only my second Penderecki CD, despite having had the Sextet CD for many years.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: kyjo on September 15, 2013, 05:36:26 PM
Aho's Flute Concerto may be one of the best concerti written for flute I've heard in quite some time.

I agree! Nielsen, Ibert, Rautavaara, Rorem, Rodrigo, Rouse, Sallinen, Holmboe and Weinberg have also written some very nice flute concertos. :)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 15, 2013, 05:45:12 PM
I agree! Nielsen, Ibert, Rautavaara, Rorem, Rodrigo, Rouse, Sallinen, Holmboe and Weinberg have also written some very nice flute concertos. :)

Yeah, but none of these concerti captured my imagination quite like Aho's. I can't stand Rouse's music. The Ibert is quite good. Never cared much for Nielsen's concerti. Like the Rorem and Holmboe. Don't care much for Weinberg. Rodrigo is a pleasant enough composer, but I think he wrote better for piano, violin, and guitar. Sallinen's music doesn't do much for me. I do like Rautavaara's.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: kyjo on September 15, 2013, 06:05:11 PM
Yeah, but none of these concerti captured my imagination quite like Aho's. I can't stand Rouse's music. The Ibert is quite good. Never cared much for Nielsen's concerti. Like the Rorem and Holmboe. Don't care much for Weinberg. Rodrigo is a pleasant enough composer, but I think he wrote better for piano, violin, and guitar. Sallinen's music doesn't do much for me. I do like Rautavaara's.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, John! Interesting to hear your opinion of Rouse. He's far from one of my favorite composers, but his Flute Concerto is definitely his best work IMO. It boasts a heartbreakingly beautiful and emotionally intense slow movement. Nothing in Rouse's oeuvre comes close to the impact and power of this movement IMO. Have you heard it, John?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 15, 2013, 06:08:16 PM
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, John! Interesting to hear your opinion of Rouse. He's far from one of my favorite composers, but his Flute Concerto is definitely his best work IMO. It boasts a heartbreakingly beautiful and emotionally intense slow movement. Nothing in Rouse's oeuvre comes close to the impact and power of this movement IMO. Have you heard it, John?

I have heard it, but remain skeptical about it. I'll have to revisit it at some point. Right now, I can't, I'm listening to RVW's A London Symphony (Handley performance). :D
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: kyjo on September 15, 2013, 06:10:04 PM
I have heard it, but remain skeptical about it. I'll have to revisit it at some point. Right now, I can't, I'm listening to RVW's A London Symphony (Handley performance). :D

Yes, please do! But finish the RVW first, of course! ;)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 20, 2013, 06:51:31 AM
Spent a few hours last night on Spotify listening to various Penderecki pieces (symphonies, concerto, Requiem...) almost all for the first time, and I could easily sense the beginning of a new obsession  ;D, to be continued...
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: snyprrr on September 20, 2013, 07:12:17 AM
Spent a few hours last night on Spotify listening to various Penderecki pieces (symphonies, concerto, Requiem...) almost all for the first time, and I could easily sense the beginning of a new obsession  ;D, to be continued...

Tag... you're it!!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on October 03, 2013, 03:17:01 PM
Just finished my first listen to the St. Luke Passion.

Immediately one of my favourite Penderecki works!  Wow, magnificent!!

Courtesy of MI (John).  Hat tip!  :)

(http://www.emofaces.com/png/200/emoticons/tip-of-the-hat.png)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Cato on October 03, 2013, 03:43:18 PM
Just finished my first listen to the St. Luke Passion.

Immediately one of my favourite Penderecki works!  Wow, magnificent!!

Courtesy of MI (John).  Hat tip!  :)

Now you can graduate to Utrenja!

Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on October 03, 2013, 03:44:22 PM
Now you can graduate to Utrenja!



Not necessary, I have that disc and have listened to it!  Very much enjoyed it.  :)

I guess I took the "post graduate" course first.  8)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 04, 2013, 07:56:07 AM
As a result of Ray's post here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21492.msg746666.html#msg746666), I've sampled the St Luke's Passion, and like what I hear.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on October 04, 2013, 07:56:43 AM
As a result of Ray's post here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21492.msg746666.html#msg746666), I've sampled the St Luke's Passion, and like what I hear.

+1!  8)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on October 04, 2013, 07:59:58 AM
As a result of Ray's post here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21492.msg746666.html#msg746666), I've sampled the St Luke's Passion, and like what I hear.

Oh, btw Karl, which performance was it that you just listened to?  :)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 04, 2013, 08:36:17 AM
The samples from that Wit & al. CD.  I can see that Cato's Utrenja rec (that only seems to sound like "train wreck") will be another item to investigate.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 05, 2013, 02:51:41 PM
WARNING: Do not listen to Polymorphia with the lights off...wait, DO listen to Polymorphia with the lights off to get the best effect. Oh, and wear headphones.  >:D  ;D

I love how Polymorphia's ending is the opposite kind of raspberry as Ives' 2nd Symphony.  ;)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on October 05, 2013, 03:28:35 PM
WARNING: Do not listen to Polymorphia with the lights off...wait, DO listen to Polymorphia with the lights off to get the best effect. Oh, and wear headphones.  >:D  ;D



That's exactly what I was thinking, Greg!  ;D

I was going to suggest, try turning off all the lights.....I bet you'll be turning them back on!   :laugh:
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on March 10, 2014, 05:02:12 PM
Spent a few hours last night on Spotify listening to various Penderecki pieces (symphonies, concerto, Requiem...) almost all for the first time, and I could easily sense the beginning of a new obsession  ;D, to be continued...

Have you explored any more Penderecki since this post, Greg? I've been reconsidering his music at the moment. (Don't worry Ray I don't want the Wit CDs back :P)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DavidW on March 10, 2014, 06:49:44 PM
Back last fall I picked up the symphony box... well this naxos sale on arkiv I picked up a bunch of concerto cds.  I'm excited to give them a listen!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on March 10, 2014, 06:55:20 PM
Back last fall I picked up the symphony box... well this naxos sale on arkiv I picked up a bunch of concerto cds.  I'm excited to give them a listen!

Right now, all I own are the Dux recordings which all sound quite good to my ears and have the composer himself conducting on most of them. I can't say I'm completely blown away by the symphonies as they seem to have a sameness to them as does the larger choral works. His sound-world is stark and not as colorful as I like but certainly there's a lot more to him than this acerbic style of his? I keep reading over and over he's one of Poland's most important composers and while I don't doubt his importance, his music has remained, for me, a jagged pill that's hard to swallow.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DavidW on March 10, 2014, 07:04:27 PM
Right now, all I own are the Dux recordings which all sound quite good to my ears and have the composer himself conducting on most of them. I can't say I'm completely blown away by the symphonies as they seem to have a sameness to them as does the larger choral works. His sound-world is stark and not as colorful as I like but certainly there's a lot more to him than this acerbic style of his? I keep reading over and over he's one of Poland's most important composers and while I don't doubt his importance, his music has remained, for me, a jagged pill that's hard to swallow.

He builds on the same motif in most of his symphonies.  It never bothered me because of the tone and way that it's orchestrated is transformed each time.  But if it bothers you try his chamber music instead.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on March 10, 2014, 07:12:44 PM
He builds on the same motif in most of his symphonies.  It never bothered me because of the tone and way that it's orchestrated is transformed each time.  But if it bothers you try his chamber music instead.

He builds on the same motif in most of his symphonies? Now, granted, I'm not an expert on Penderecki nor do I know too much about his music, but what I've heard of his later works just sound like they were cut from the same cloth and there seems to be a lack of variety in the music that turns me off a bit. I doubt the chamber music would change my opinion considering that his orchestral/choral music takes up so much of his oeuvre. Maybe I'm just thinking too much about the music instead of letting it speak to me? Who knows at this point.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DavidW on March 10, 2014, 07:26:20 PM
The motif I talked about I first heard and is usually attributed to the third symphony.  I've heard it in all but the first two symphonies.  It appears twice in the seventh.  Listen here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqL6i7VXDWQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqL6i7VXDWQ)

He also incorporates Jewish motifs and the famous B-A-C-H motif which you can listen to here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leTVRE_-8Z0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leTVRE_-8Z0)

That superficially gives a sameness to alot of his orchestral music, but it is in the harmony and color that make each orchestral work of his stand out as unique.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on March 10, 2014, 07:39:33 PM
The motif I talked about I first heard and is usually attributed to the third symphony.  I've heard it in all but the first two symphonies.  It appears twice in the seventh.  Listen here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqL6i7VXDWQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqL6i7VXDWQ)

He also incorporates Jewish motifs and the famous B-A-C-H motif which you can listen to here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leTVRE_-8Z0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leTVRE_-8Z0)

That superficially gives a sameness to alot of his orchestral music, but it is in the harmony and color that make each orchestral work of his stand out as unique.

Ah yes, I've heard that Passacaglia before from his Symphony No. 3. It's pretty cool sounding but what I'm finding is that there's also a lack of memorability for me in his music. Time to dig out those Dux recordings I suppose and give some of them a spin.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on March 10, 2014, 07:52:20 PM
Maybe I should just stick with Szymanowski, Lutoslawski, and Bacewicz. :)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 10, 2014, 08:13:14 PM
I doubt the chamber music would change my opinion considering that his orchestral/choral music takes up so much of his oeuvre.

IMHO, he's mistaken his own talent a bit. He is better in smaller forms than large ones, yet unfortunately he insists on writing bombastic orchestral/choral extravaganzas. I do think his chamber music, and what I've heard of his a cappella choral music, is much better.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on March 10, 2014, 08:19:18 PM
IMHO, he's mistaken his own talent a bit. He is better in smaller forms than large ones, yet unfortunately he insists on writing bombastic orchestral/choral extravaganzas. I do think his chamber music, and what I've heard of his a cappella choral music, is much better.

Maybe it's just his musical language in general that I don't respond to? His other countrymen, like Lutoslawski and Panufnik for example, were much more colorful in their orchestration. Penderecki, by comparison, sounds cluttered and stuffy, but it also doesn't help when you don't have much to say musically, which I don't think Penderecki does.

Anyway, I know, I know nobody is telling me or trying to force me to like his music, I'm just trying to figure out why he's so popular amongst listeners.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Ken B on March 10, 2014, 08:24:39 PM
Maybe I should just stick with Szymanowski, Lutoslawski, and Bacewicz. :)
Try Gruppen by Stockhausen.  I can supply videos and instruction manuals proving it is the most original and successful piece of music ever composed. In fact, if you follow the videos and diagrams closely you won't even need to listen to Gruppen to appreciate it.  $:)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on March 10, 2014, 08:26:33 PM
Try Gruppen by Stockhausen.  I can supply videos and instruction manuals proving it is the most original and successful piece of music ever composed. In fact, if you follow the videos and diagrams closely you won't even need to listen to Gruppen to appreciate it.  $:)

I heard Gruppen once...well not the whole thing. I almost busted out laughing and I do remember thinking "This is the composer James totes around as if he's some kind of god?" :laugh:
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Ken B on March 10, 2014, 08:28:04 PM
IMHO, he's mistaken his own talent a bit. He is better in smaller forms than large ones, yet unfortunately he insists on writing bombastic orchestral/choral extravaganzas. I do think his chamber music, and what I've heard of his a cappella choral music, is much better.
I agree. I like the sextet a lot for instance. The concertos are more reigned in than the symphonies or huge passions.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Ken B on March 10, 2014, 08:29:50 PM
I heard Gruppen once...well not the whole thing. I almost busted out laughing and I do remember thinking "This is the composer James totes around as if he's some kind of god?" :laugh:
God can only aspire to Gruppen. That's explained in video 3, starting at the 87 minute mark.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on March 10, 2014, 08:38:38 PM
God can only aspire to Gruppen. That's explained in video 3, starting at the 87 minute mark.

Wow..only the 87 minute mark? Talk about being on a slow boat to nowhere. :)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Daverz on March 10, 2014, 09:04:04 PM
what I've heard of his later works just sound like they were cut from the same cloth and there seems to be a lack of variety in the music

I had the same feeling about the Symphonies, though they seem well constructed.  But I really enjoyed the Piano Concerto.  He seemed to let his hair down a bit there.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on March 10, 2014, 09:54:18 PM
I had the same feeling about the Symphonies, though they seem well constructed.  But I really enjoyed the Piano Concerto.  He seemed to let his hair down a bit there.

I'll have to revisit the Piano Concerto. The only thing I remember about it was it was a bit long given the musical material.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DavidW on March 11, 2014, 04:10:53 AM
The only thing I remember about it was it was a bit long given the musical material.

I don't think a Pettersson fan gets to complain about that! :P

Again, try his chamber music. 8)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 11, 2014, 04:18:46 AM
I don't think a Pettersson fan gets to complain about that! :P

Again, try his chamber music. 8)

I wonder, now, if I ever did get around to the Sextet . . . .
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on March 11, 2014, 06:04:32 AM
I don't think a Pettersson fan gets to complain about that! :P

Again, try his chamber music. 8)

Correction: I'm not a Pettersson fan. :)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Ken B on March 11, 2014, 07:29:23 AM
Correction: I'm not a Pettersson fan. :)
Correction: "Correction: I'm not a Pettersson fan this week. :)"

 8)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on March 11, 2014, 07:35:45 AM
Correction: "Correction: I'm not a Pettersson fan this week. :)"

 8)

Don't get me started on Pettersson. If there's a ever a musical stick in the mud, it's him. :)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DavidW on March 11, 2014, 08:34:03 AM
Don't get me started on Pettersson. If there's a ever a musical stick in the mud, it's him. :)

That is a pretty apt description of Pettersson.  He is a musical depression.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DavidW on March 11, 2014, 08:38:52 AM
I listened to Penderecki's Dies Irae this morning and it just blew me away!  Anyone else fans of that work?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 11, 2014, 08:05:41 PM
I listened to Penderecki's Dies Irae this morning and it just blew me away!  Anyone else fans of that work?

Not yet, but you reminded me that I have the piece and haven't listened to it, on a Naxos CD with the rather nice so-called 8th Symphony. I'll try to listen to it soon.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on March 11, 2014, 08:40:05 PM
I listened to Penderecki's Dies Irae this morning and it just blew me away!  Anyone else fans of that work?

Isn't this from his Polish Requiem?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on March 11, 2014, 08:41:08 PM
If I continue to frequent this forum, I could turn into a Pendereckian. Oh dear...I suppose there are worse things in life.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Ken B on March 11, 2014, 08:45:04 PM
If I continue to frequent this forum, I could turn into a Pendereckian. Oh dear...I suppose there are worse things in life.
Bergian.

 :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on March 11, 2014, 08:59:19 PM
Bergian.

 :laugh: :laugh:

What do you think about Penderecki, Ken?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on March 11, 2014, 09:09:39 PM
The Dies Irae from the Polish Requiem is something else...absolutely gut-wrenching -

http://www.youtube.com/v/FnWbk1UPO2Y
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Ken B on March 11, 2014, 09:24:53 PM
What do you think about Penderecki, Ken?
I like quite a lot but agree he is better small and controlled. I like the sextet a lot. The concertos are generally good.  When I try though I don't have strong memories like I do with some composers, like Shosty, or to mention some you should look into, Beethoven, Schubert, or Dvorak. I suspect he is not a Brahms but a Raff, a figure of his time but not beyond it.

There are not many pieces of the past 50 years I am confident will be in the repertoire in another 50. Most music doesn't make it. I don't follow modern symphonism closely, but I can only think of two I'd put money on, and even then I might want odds.  ;)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on March 11, 2014, 09:31:29 PM
I like quite a lot but agree he is better small and controlled. I like the sextet a lot. The concertos are generally good.  When I try though I don't have strong memories like I do with some composers, like Shosty, or to mention some you should look into, Beethoven, Schubert, or Dvorak. I suspect he is not a Brahms but a Raff, a figure of his time but not beyond it.

There are not many pieces of the past 50 years I am confident will be in the repertoire in another 50. Most music doesn't make it. I don't follow modern symphonism closely, but I can only think of two I'd put money on, and even then I might want odds.  ;)

I like Beethoven and love Dvorak, but don't care for Schubert. I love Brahms, too. I don't think I'll be listening to any Penderecki for a long time and even then it probably wouldn't be long enough. :)

Anyway, since I'm not a fan of his music, I really shouldn't be on this thread. Good night all.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: not edward on March 12, 2014, 08:31:52 AM
IMHO, he's mistaken his own talent a bit. He is better in smaller forms than large ones, yet unfortunately he insists on writing bombastic orchestral/choral extravaganzas. I do think his chamber music, and what I've heard of his a cappella choral music, is much better.
Totally agreed. The string trio, third quartet, clarinet quartet and sextet all hang together a lot better than the orchestral works (though I think the second violin sonata suffers from the same flabby structures that compromise his orchestral work). Similarly, I'd regard the 3rd and 8th as the most successful of the symphonies, probably because their multi-movement design forces tauter structure.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 12, 2014, 08:35:19 AM
Thank you both, most interesting.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 12, 2014, 09:08:30 AM
Similarly, I'd regard the 3rd and 8th as the most successful of the symphonies, probably because their multi-movement design forces tauter structure.

And I agree with that, too. Furthermore, I mentioned briefly a cappella choral music; this disc (Tapiola Chamber Choir) is eminently recommendable:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-Q03N1euL._SX300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: ibanezmonster on March 13, 2014, 11:51:11 AM
Totally agreed. The string trio, third quartet, clarinet quartet and sextet all hang together a lot better than the orchestral works (though I think the second violin sonata suffers from the same flabby structures that compromise his orchestral work). Similarly, I'd regard the 3rd and 8th as the most successful of the symphonies, probably because their multi-movement design forces tauter structure.
I believe I've felt the same way, though it's been so long since I've listened to a Penderecki symphony that I couldn't really comment any further.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DavidW on March 13, 2014, 06:01:21 PM
Not yet, but you reminded me that I have the piece and haven't listened to it, on a Naxos CD with the rather nice so-called 8th Symphony. I'll try to listen to it soon.

That is how I have it too.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DavidW on March 13, 2014, 06:03:08 PM
Isn't this from his Polish Requiem?

Since you shared the youtube link I can tell you by listening that they are two different works. 
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Ken B on March 13, 2014, 06:17:00 PM
Since you shared the youtube link I can tell you by listening that they are two different works.
I assume you mean the Auschwitz Dies Irae, a memorial piece.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DavidW on March 14, 2014, 08:09:28 AM
I assume you mean the Auschwitz Dies Irae, a memorial piece.

I didn't know that, but now that I looked it up yes it's also called the Auschwitz Oratorio and it dates from 1967, coming from his more avant garde phase.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on April 13, 2014, 11:48:40 PM
Sorry if this annoys those who read all three threads, but here I go cross-posting...

NInA's Three composers site

http://threecomposers.pl/ (http://threecomposers.pl/)

has a selection of recordings to listen to on-line (hover over the name "Penderecki" and select "music" to get to the list).
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: snyprrr on April 14, 2014, 06:20:43 AM
Symphony No.3

I think this is one of the very best of KP's transitional pieces. The Violin Concerto No.1 is a beast, but this one is a little more cohesive. I really liked the 'Christmas' Symphony and was struggling to find something similar; No.3 is it! That, and the Cello Concerto No.2, I think, are the high points of this phase. What do you think? (Viola Concerto, too, I liked just a little bit)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 15, 2014, 10:07:42 AM
Symphony No.3

I think this is one of the very best of KP's transitional pieces.

I agree with you, even though the work seems to be cobbled together haphazardly. The nocturnal adagio and sizzling scherzo-finale are the highlights.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: snyprrr on April 15, 2014, 03:36:08 PM
I agree with you, even though the work seems to be cobbled together haphazardly. The nocturnal adagio and sizzling scherzo-finale are the highlights.

ok

Penderecki 3 vs. Schnittke 3

Who wins?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DavidW on April 15, 2014, 04:09:22 PM
ok

Penderecki 3 vs. Schnittke 3

Who wins?

Penderecki, but he loses to Lutoslawski 3. 8)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: snyprrr on April 16, 2014, 06:03:39 AM
Penderecki, but he loses to Lutoslawski 3. 8)

mmm... good call!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: snyprrr on April 16, 2014, 06:18:45 AM
Symphony 4 'Adagio'...???

Symphony 5...???

Symphony 6...???

Symphony 7... '7 Gates'

Symphony 8...???

Who's writing more, him or Glass? ugh...
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933) Cello Cto.2/ Violin Cto.1
Post by: snyprrr on April 17, 2014, 09:08:40 AM
I need to get to the bottom of this. I'd like to get the Orfeo, which has the two pieces I want, but, at this point, with so many options, I really just want to know what you all think here, especially if you actually have some of the rarer recordings, oy!

Cello Concerto No.2

Zhislin(?)/ Naxos
Rostropovich/ Erato
Noras/ Finlandia-Apex
Monighetti/ Polski Nigr.
Pergamenschow/ Orfeo


Violin Concerto No.1

Stern/ SONY
XXX/ Naxos
Edinger/ Thorofon
Edinger/ Orfeo
XXX/ Channel Classics
XXX/ Polski Nigr.
XXX/ ???

The Channel Classics has a great review which says it's in another class than the rest (so is the price!). I guess- I just don't know who the sound varies here. Stern's expensive again.

Also, a reviewer thought the Naxos CC2 was in a class with the Slava. So, what do you think? (and, we all know this is dreary going, so, I'm not commenting on the music!!) ha
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: ibanezmonster on April 17, 2014, 09:10:00 AM
ok

Penderecki 3 vs. Schnittke 3

Who wins?
As much as I like Penderecki, Schnittke wins this one.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DavidW on April 17, 2014, 09:33:49 AM
As much as I like Penderecki, Schnittke wins this one.

The correct answer is "I win!" ;D
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933) Cello Cto.2/ Violin Cto.1
Post by: snyprrr on April 18, 2014, 10:46:53 AM
I need to get to the bottom of this. I'd like to get the Orfeo, which has the two pieces I want, but, at this point, with so many options, I really just want to know what you all think here, especially if you actually have some of the rarer recordings, oy!

Cello Concerto No.2

Zhislin(?)/ Naxos
Rostropovich/ Erato
Noras/ Finlandia-Apex
Monighetti/ Polski Nigr.
Pergamenschow/ Orfeo


Violin Concerto No.1

Stern/ SONY
XXX/ Naxos (Kulka)
Edinger/ Thorofon
Edinger/ Orfeo
XXX/ Channel Classics
XXX/ Polski Nigr.
XXX/ ???

The Channel Classics has a great review which says it's in another class than the rest (so is the price!). I guess- I just don't know who the sound varies here. Stern's expensive again.

Also, a reviewer thought the Naxos CC2 was in a class with the Slava. So, what do you think? (and, we all know this is dreary going, so, I'm not commenting on the music!!) ha

Pleeease?! 0:)

My finger is on the button and a need confirmation- does the Orfeo have shitty Orfeo sound or good Orfeo sound (cause they can be bad)? Or... mm...
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933) Cello Cto.2/ Violin Cto.1
Post by: snyprrr on April 19, 2014, 09:48:23 AM
Pleeease?! 0:)

My finger is on the button and a need confirmation- does the Orfeo have shitty Orfeo sound or good Orfeo sound (cause they can be bad)? Or... mm...

pretty please?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: relm1 on July 01, 2014, 05:59:41 PM
This is my annual, "Has anyone heard of any updates regarding Penderecki's missing Symphony No. 6?" post.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: ibanezmonster on July 01, 2014, 06:14:49 PM
This is my annual, "Has anyone heard of any updates regarding Penderecki's missing Symphony No. 6?" post.
That's like his middle finger towards everyone interested in collecting his symphonies. 1-8? Got them. Missing 6? Well, you'll always be missing 6. Always. He'll never write it.  >:D
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 01, 2014, 06:22:03 PM
That's like his middle finger towards everyone interested in collecting his symphonies. 1-8? Got them. Missing 6? Well, you'll always be missing 6. Always. He'll never write it.  >:D

Maybe he's leaving it to be discovered posthumously, or something.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: ibanezmonster on July 01, 2014, 06:23:56 PM
Maybe he's leaving it to be discovered posthumously, or something.
LOL we can only hope. But if he didn't want it to be performed in his lifetime at least for himself to hear, then it must be pretty bad.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: kishnevi on July 01, 2014, 06:33:10 PM
Schubert had the Unfinished.  Penderecki has the Uncomposed.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: ibanezmonster on July 01, 2014, 07:49:42 PM
Schubert had the Unfinished.  Penderecki has the Uncomposed.
That's a good idea. When his full symphony cycle is released after he dies, they should include it in there with exactly that name. It'll just be a second-long track called "The Uncomposed," and I think that'll satisfy anyone who wants to truly feel like they've collected his complete symphonies.  Maybe in the CD booklet where they have a single page dedicated to each of his symphonies, for the 6th, they could just have a picture of Penderecki sitting in a chair, looking at you with his middle finger up. 8)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: petrarch on January 03, 2015, 11:39:58 AM
A new production of The Devils of Loudun, in the composer's latest revision, is being performed in Copenhagen, Warsaw and at the Edinburgh Festival!

http://kglteater.dk/whats-on/performances/season-2012-2013/opera/djaevlene-fra-loudun (http://kglteater.dk/whats-on/performances/season-2012-2013/opera/djaevlene-fra-loudun)

http://www.lionelfriend.com/images/thoughts_may2012.pdf (http://www.lionelfriend.com/images/thoughts_may2012.pdf)


Stage: Operaen Store Scene
Title: The Devils of Loudun
Artform: Opera
Performance period: 12. Feb. - 26. Mar. 2013
Duration: Approx. 1 hour 50 minutes. No interval.
Price: 895kr - 125kr
Dates: 12/02, 14/02, 27/02, 05/03, 12/03, 19/03, 24/03, 26/03

Interesting short interview on the occasion of one of the performances:

http://channel.louisiana.dk/video/krzysztof-penderecki-turning-history-avant-garde
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Cato on April 23, 2015, 10:09:13 AM
I came across a reference to the "in-progress" Sixth Symphony today, and saw that a label called DUX has issued the "Complete Symphonies."

No 6th!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on July 26, 2015, 11:04:44 PM
It's complete in the sense that it includes all the symphonies he's completed so far. I think he decided to call Seven Gates his Seventh Symphony for obvious reasons (seven movements, Seven in the title, main motif of seven notes). There was a 7-year time during the 80s and 90s when his Third Symphony didn't fully exist, but during that gap he produced Fourth (1989) and Fifth (1992) Symphonies.

The status of the Sixth is really a mystery though. In-progress could mean absolutely anything. Would you rather him complete his Sixth next or compose a Ninth before he goes?

BTW, I'm a huge fan of Penderecki's music. My favourite living composer. I'm slowly collecting all the Naxos discs, of which I currently have 12.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: relm1 on July 28, 2015, 10:13:24 PM
It would sort of bug me if the 9th symphony has that title but there are only eight symphonies.  Sort of how a top 10 list with only nine items would drive me nuts.   :-X
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: lescamil on July 29, 2015, 07:48:33 AM
I am guessing that the 6th symphony is completed, but could perhaps be a withdrawn work. It might perhaps materialize after Penderecki's death. As for a 9th, I saw an interview years ago where he said that that is where he intends to stop, so I think we will get our 9th soon.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Cato on July 31, 2015, 05:12:21 AM
I am guessing that the 6th symphony is completed, but could perhaps be a withdrawn work. It might perhaps materialize after Penderecki's death. As for a 9th, I saw an interview years ago where he said that that is where he intends to stop, so I think we will get our 9th soon.

I found this on Alibris where it was selling the Seventh Symphony:

Quote
(Richard Whitehouse, in Naxos' program booklet, noted that "though a 'No. 6' had been fully worked out in concept, it had not yet been written." Penderecki completed his Eighth Symphony in 2005, but at that time, the Sixth had still not appeared.)

Which comment reminds of something for another topic!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 31, 2015, 05:14:34 AM
Hmmmmm
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on August 09, 2015, 07:35:56 AM
One of my favourite Penderecki works is the Piano Concerto "Resurrection". The chorale which occurs throughout always gives me goosebumps, whether played quietly as in its first appearance, or loudly as at the major climax of the work. During that climax, three extra trumpets play from a balcony, and the orchestra drops out at the end, leaving the sound of differently-pitched tam-tams and (pre-recorded) pealing church bells. A fantastic effect.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: ibanezmonster on August 09, 2015, 08:08:32 AM
Never writing a sixth symphony Penderecki's pathway to immortality.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on August 11, 2015, 11:22:32 AM
Does anyone have a clue what is happening in Utrenja? A large part of why I find that piece quite difficult is the lack of access to a libretto. The Naxos recording doesn't have any texts available, either in the booklet or as a PDF.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Cato on August 11, 2015, 11:46:01 AM
Does anyone have a clue what is happening in Utrenja? A large part of why I find that piece quite difficult is the lack of access to a libretto. The Naxos recording doesn't have any texts available, either in the booklet or as a PDF.

The work has two parts: the original Utrenja was subtitled The Entombment of Christ.  A second part was added a year or two later: The Resurrection of Christ.

I have a copy of the score for Part I in my archives (not handy right now).  The old vinyl recording from Phillips in the 1970's has a translated libretto.  So far I cannot find the translation online.

NAXOS and other companies need to be thinking about making their offerings more sensible.  The cost of a few pieces of paper to do the job right...
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Cato on August 11, 2015, 11:55:33 AM
The work has two parts: the original Utrenja was subtitled The Entombment of Christ.  A second part was added a year or two later: The Resurrection of Christ.

I have a copy of the score for Part I in my archives (not handy right now).  The old vinyl recording from Phillips in the 1970's has a translated libretto.  So far I cannot find the translation online.

NAXOS and other companies need to be thinking about making their offerings more sensible.  The cost of a few pieces of paper to do the job right...

For $10.00 on Amazon, that record is available, and I am assuming the seller has not lost the libretto. 

The alternative is to buy two other CD's, one on RCA for Part I, and another for Part II, and hope those companies have included texts.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 11, 2015, 04:55:11 PM
I know this post will warrant a 'thanks for stopping by' reply, but I have a confession to make: I have yet to hear a Penderecki work I enjoy. Unlike many composers of his generation, I find it difficult to get through one of his works without constantly thinking "What's the point?" This isn't music like Takemitsu or Sculthorpe where I can get lost in their 'soundscapes' nor is this a composer like Hartmann or Lutoslawski where I can hear the past in their music and/or some kind of link to the great tradition that keeps it 'grounded' so to speak. Penderecki just feels like a composer that has been going through the motions for decades with the exception of his early, more experimental works. I mean he ranks up there with Pettersson as coming across as grandstanding with no platform to stand on. I understand misery (probably better than I should), but this shouldn't be your only resource as a composer. To sum up, I believe Penderecki is a one-trick pony that has really worn out that one trick decades ago.

All IMHO of course and it's okay to tell me I'm ignorant and I need to clean my ears out. I've heard it all before. ::) ;D
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on September 02, 2015, 01:08:29 AM
The next volume of Antoni Wit/Warsaw PO's Penderecki series on Naxos is coming in October, this time featuring "A sea of dreams did breathe on me...", an hour-long song cycle from 2010, for soprano, alto & baritone soloists, chorus and orchestra.

http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.573062 (http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.573062)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: lescamil on September 02, 2015, 06:15:11 AM
All IMHO of course and it's okay to tell me I'm ignorant and I need to clean my ears out. I've heard it all before. ::) ;D

Then you'll hear it again!

That said, for as great as Penderecki is, I will say that in the pantheon of Polish music he is far behind the likes of Chopin, Szymanowski, Lutoslawski, and Panufnik (that order for me, but that's a different topic).
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 03, 2015, 07:30:16 AM
Penderecki just feels like a composer that has been going through the motions for decades with the exception of his early, more experimental works. I mean he ranks up there with Pettersson as coming across as grandstanding with no platform to stand on.

Interesting that you link these two. I like much by both of them, but with some serious caveats. However, I find them different in that I never doubt Pettersson's sincerity or earnestness even when I don't like what I'm hearing, while with Penderecki, when I hear something from him I don't like, it feels like he's just going through the motions as you say.

Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 03, 2015, 02:52:09 PM
Interesting that you link these two. I like much by both of them, but with some serious caveats. However, I find them different in that I never doubt Pettersson's sincerity or earnestness even when I don't like what I'm hearing, while with Penderecki, when I hear something from him I don't like, it feels like he's just going through the motions as you say.

I like more of Pettersson than Penderecki. Take Pettersson's 7th for example. I love this work and feel it has the best elements of his style rolled into that symphony.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Joaquimhock on October 27, 2015, 11:15:08 AM
Strange "post-classical" or neo something new piece by Penderecki... "Polonez": https://vimeo.com/141873703
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on October 31, 2015, 02:43:18 PM
Fine piece, that. Interesting to see the offstage brass band there (including a sousaphone, no less.) Many of Penderecki's works in the last 30 years or so make great use of offstage instruments, most notably the 7th Symphony.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: snyprrr on November 03, 2015, 02:01:22 PM
I like more of Pettersson than Penderecki. Take Pettersson's 7th for example. I love this work and feel it has the best elements of his style rolled into that symphony.

'Christmas' Symphony No.2

Violin Concerto No.1

Cello Concerto (from the '80s)

The Symphony is very Petterssonian, as is the VC, though, yes, AGP has much more "argument" going on, whereas Penderecki seems to like to wallow... I like the wallowing in the Sym. glue-me
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Cato on November 03, 2015, 03:15:43 PM
Strange "post-classical" or neo something new piece by Penderecki... "Polonez": https://vimeo.com/141873703

Here is the score, courtesy of Schott Music!

http://www.schott-music.com/shop/9/show,334632.html (http://www.schott-music.com/shop/9/show,334632.html)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933) GTHRENODY----FOR THE FIRST TIME REALLY
Post by: snyprrr on November 28, 2015, 03:23:45 PM
Krzysztof Penderecki : Poland's greatest living composer born #OnThisDay (https://musicakaleidoscope.wordpress.com/2015/11/23/krzysztof-penderecki-polands-greatest-living-composer-born-onthisday/)

(https://musicakaleidoscope.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/pendercki2.jpg?w=764)

I was able to break out of my Nordic-mania with KP here recently. I've been enjoying both of the EMI 2CD sets, though, I do like the fun, earlier stuff better.

For the first time, I really listened to the 'Threnody...', and, huh, once you get passed the famous intro, there really is a few things going on. A lot of course reminds one of Xenakis, but, without a shred of scientific mathematics behind it, which, technically, relegatesKP to the "fun pile" for me- all I hear is what's missing from a more rigorous, Xenakian approach. However, I still find the sounds lots of fun.

Yay KP!! :D
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on March 30, 2016, 12:26:13 AM
Today marks the 50th anniversary of the premiere of one of Penderecki's most important works, the St. Luke Passion.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 02, 2016, 01:15:28 PM
I noticed that Mr. Henning has been absent from this thread. I'd love to get his take on Penderecki's music. Come on, Karl!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 02, 2016, 06:18:27 AM
I noticed that Mr. Henning has been absent from this thread. I'd love to get his take on Penderecki's music. Come on, Karl!

I'm still waiting, Karl. ;)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Androcles on October 22, 2016, 03:49:07 PM
Penderecki does strike me definitely as a neo-romantic. But then, just like with Stravinsky there does seem to be more to the way he looks back at past styles.

I do find him as an odd composer to approach. His 60s works are good (not as interesting to me as his peers though), his symphonies are interesting, so are his concertos. There are great works there but compared to his peers, he sticks out as an oddball.   :-\

I agree that he is Neo-Romantic. There's even a rather 'romantic' element to some of the 1960s work, I think. I'm not sure he's such an oddball though. His general trajectory from avantgarde to a more conservative idiom is in line with quite a number of composers who made a similar move in the 1970s, particularly in Eastern Europe: Arvo Part, Einojuhani Rautavaara, Valentin Silvestrov, even Alfred Schnittke. I suspect though, in most of the above cases, either the composer wasn't so well known as an avantgardist, or they didn't move quite so far back in the 'conservative' direction.

Recent music by Penderecki is not a terribly difficult listening experience, and can seem a bit gimmicky at times (some of the themes in the Piano Concerto, the 'tubaphones' in the Seven Gates of Jerusalem). That said, some of it has got some depth to it - Symphony No. 3, Violin Sonata No. 2 and a few others. Personally I have something of a soft spot for the earlier 'conservative' music: 1st Violin Concerto, Viola Concerto, 2nd Symphony, Polish Requiem, although I would agree his best works are probably from the 60s and early 70s - St. Luke Passion, Utrenja, Threnody, De Natura Sonoris I and II, Fluorescences.

I also rather like him as a person, from the interviews I've seen. I also saw him conduct his own music in concert and most enjoyed it. The Viola Concerto was performed and unfortunately the soloist broke a string towards the end - I think he dealt with it very well and, from what I remember gave the soloist a big hug.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Androcles on October 22, 2016, 04:57:12 PM
Ok - I see what you mean. You only have to listen to Symphonies 1 and 2 together to see the difference. And for someone as central to avantgardism as Penderecki at the time to then go and produce music like the Symphony No. 2 must have seemed crazy. But I still think theres a rather 'romantic' strain that runs through all his music, though perhaps not always intentionally. I know, for example, that the 'Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima' was only named retrospectively when the composer realised that it had a hefty emotional impact.

I wonder to what extent politics lies behind Penderecki's '360 degree' turn.

 I think for a lot of Eastern European composers theres something a bit dialectical about tendencies toward the avantgarde. Because this kind of music was banned until 1956 (Stalinism), composers initially saw modernist experimentation as a way of expressing a sort of protest, but more than that - as a way of finding life's meaning for oneself. It was an artistic struggle on which life depnded. I think this is certainly the case with Schnittke Symphony No. 1. It is interesting to me how many of those early works of Penderecki were explicitly Catholic in inspiration - and I wonder whether that was all part of the same attempt to find a personal meaning - investigating forbidden music and forbidden spirituality at the same time.

Interesting that Penderecki later said 'The avant-garde gave one an illusion of universalism. The musical world of Stockhausen, Nono, Boulez and Cage was for us, the young – hemmed in by the aesthetics of socialist realism, then the official canon in our country – a liberation...I was quick to realise however, that this novelty, this experimentation and formal speculation, is more destructive than constructive; I realised the Utopian quality of its Promethean tone'. Penderecki concluded that he was 'saved from the avant-garde snare of formalism by a return to tradition'  Perhaps by the late 70s and early 80s, the composer no longer felt the need for a reactionary way of composing music. The need to reach a wider public and become a sort of national institution was far more important. Particularly as movements like Solidarnost gained some traction and then by the late 80s Gorbachev's reform meant for unforeseen liberalisation in the Eastern bloc, suddenly Penderecki felt he had a degree of social responsibility in writing his music. I think he tried to use it to reflect the hopes and tragedies of the Polish people. I think you can see this in the Polish Requiem in particular.

Perhaps this is why his music from the 90s onwards has lost some vitality - it has no really consistent political context to find meaning in. I think you can see Penderecki searching in vain for a political meaning - The Piano Concerto was inspired by the Terrorist attack on the World Trade Centre and the Seven Gates of Jerusalem was commisioned for the 3000th anniversary of the founding of Jerusalem... It rather too often doesn't quite sound genuine.

I expect those composers who lived largely in the West didn't feel these things in the same way, and others were perhaps less interested in being a 'prophetic' voice. Arvo Part has felt less need for this due to his Orthodox spiritual focus, but I think his recent Los Angeles Symphony has something like this going on in it, dedicated as it is to Mikhail Khodorkovsky and the many innocent people languishing in Russian prisons.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Joaquimhock on September 20, 2017, 10:13:09 AM
6th symphony to be (finally) performed in 4 days. He says it's his last experience in the genre:

https://en.schott-music.com/work-week-krzysztof-penderecki-symphony-6/
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Turner on September 20, 2017, 10:21:57 AM
6th symphony to be (finally) performed in 4 days. He says it's his last experience in the genre:

https://en.schott-music.com/work-week-krzysztof-penderecki-symphony-6/

Interesting, thanks - also whether - or to what degree - it represents something different from the other symphonies & later syng cycles, etc.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on September 20, 2017, 12:44:32 PM
This is exciting news! I actually wondered if he was going to work on a Symphony No. 6, or just leave it blank and move on to No. 9.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 20, 2017, 05:11:04 PM
I agree that he is Neo-Romantic. There's even a rather 'romantic' element to some of the 1960s work, I think. I'm not sure he's such an oddball though. His general trajectory from avantgarde to a more conservative idiom is in line with quite a number of composers who made a similar move in the 1970s, particularly in Eastern Europe: Arvo Part, Einojuhani Rautavaara, Valentin Silvestrov, even Alfred Schnittke. I suspect though, in most of the above cases, either the composer wasn't so well known as an avantgardist, or they didn't move quite so far back in the 'conservative' direction.

Recent music by Penderecki is not a terribly difficult listening experience, and can seem a bit gimmicky at times (some of the themes in the Piano Concerto, the 'tubaphones' in the Seven Gates of Jerusalem). That said, some of it has got some depth to it - Symphony No. 3, Violin Sonata No. 2 and a few others. Personally I have something of a soft spot for the earlier 'conservative' music: 1st Violin Concerto, Viola Concerto, 2nd Symphony, Polish Requiem, although I would agree his best works are probably from the 60s and early 70s - St. Luke Passion, Utrenja, Threnody, De Natura Sonoris I and II, Fluorescences.

I also rather like him as a person, from the interviews I've seen. I also saw him conduct his own music in concert and most enjoyed it. The Viola Concerto was performed and unfortunately the soloist broke a string towards the end - I think he dealt with it very well and, from what I remember gave the soloist a big hug.

To the bolded text, I do not agree that Schnittke followed the same paths as the afore mentioned composers. In fact, Schnittke’s early career was made up of Shostakovich-inspired pieces and he didn’t really start finding his "compositional footing", if you will, until his Symphony No. 1 (1972) and the Piano Quintet (1976). These works demonstrate a completely different path than many of his contemporaries were taking at the time like Pärt, Górecki, among others. Whereas the afore mentioned composers turned to more of a ‘conservative’ idiom, Schnittke was working his way into one steeped in the Modernism of the day and the avant-garde, but what made Schnittke sound quite different is his usage of polystylism. This is something that he perfected and used up until the mid-80s or so. After suffering a series of strokes, his style turned more inward and became more bleak in scope. Just listen, for example, to his Symphonies Nos. 6, 7, & 8. I just thought I’d chime in since I’m such a Schnittke fan and have studied about his life and music for many years now.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: relm1 on September 21, 2017, 05:16:26 AM
Interesting, thanks - also whether - or to what degree - it represents something different from the other symphonies & later syng cycles, etc.

It seems to be quite different.  First of all it's his shortest symphony at 26 minutes and smallest orchestra than his other symphonies.  The colors seem exotic Chinese songs with erhu (an ancient chinese cello).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fdFGEg-9R8
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Cato on August 31, 2018, 10:12:06 AM
Just listened to the Third Symphony and the Piano Concerto #1 (Resurrection) via YouTube.  The comments there are all over the place, some wanting the 1950's-1970's experimenter to come back, others preferring the post 1970's Penderecki.

His official website is el sucko profundo   ???   and seems not to have been properly updated in 5 years or more.

Schott Publishing offers a preview of the score for the Sixth Symphony (Chinese Songs).

https://en.schott-music.com/shop/6-sinfonie-chinesische-lieder-no358733.html (https://en.schott-music.com/shop/6-sinfonie-chinesische-lieder-no358733.html)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 31, 2018, 10:39:14 AM
Just listened to the Third Symphony and the Piano Concerto #1 (Resurrection) via YouTube.  The comments there are all over the place, some wanting the 1950's-1970's experimenter to come back, others preferring the post 1970's Penderecki.

Hi, Cato. I recently read a section from Penderecki's Wikipedia page about this...

Around the mid-1970s, while he was a professor at the Yale School of Music,[15] Penderecki's style began to change. The Violin Concerto No. 1 largely leaves behind the dense tone clusters with which he had been associated, and instead focuses on two melodic intervals: the semitone and the tritone. This direction continued with the Symphony No. 2, Christmas (1980), which is harmonically and melodically quite straightforward. It makes frequent use of the tune of the Christmas carol Silent Night.

Penderecki explained this shift by stating that he had come to feel that the experimentation of the avant-garde had gone too far from the expressive, non-formal qualities of Western music: 'The avant-garde gave one an illusion of universalism. The musical world of Stockhausen, Nono, Boulez and Cage was for us, the young – hemmed in by the aesthetics of socialist realism, then the official canon in our country – a liberation...I was quick to realise however, that this novelty, this experimentation and formal speculation, is more destructive than constructive; I realised the Utopian quality of its Promethean tone'. Penderecki concluded that he was 'saved from the avant-garde snare of formalism by a return to tradition'.[11]
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on August 31, 2018, 10:54:19 AM
I really think the significance of the Silent Night quotation is overstated. It's a vast misrepresentation of what the Symphony No. 2 is about. It's literally four notes of it. Nothing more. Certainly not worth titling the whole symphony "Christmas", and giving it a reputation that it doesn't need.

It's a fantastic work, probably my favourite symphony of his (No. 7 runs it close). Just it has extremely little to do with Christmas.

Also, I'm relieved this thread bump wasn't to give us the worst news.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maciek on August 31, 2018, 01:17:01 PM
Well, one could easily argue that the opening motif of the symphony is based on the Christmas carol. The melodic material opening the symphony consists of a descending minor third (repeated thrice), an ascending major seventh, followed by another descending minor third. Compare that to the beginning of "Silent night", which is essentially two descending minor thirds (slightly embellished), an ascending seventh (a minor seventh, but still), and another descending minor third. Once you see the similarity, I'm sure you will be able to hear it too. The motif is a sort of distorted version of (or rather a variation on) the Christmas carol, at least that's how I would interpret it. I think the title of the symphony comes from the composer (I'm not 100% sure, though?).
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Cato on August 31, 2018, 02:35:38 PM
Hi, Cato. I recently read a section from Penderecki's Wikipedia page about this...



Penderecki explained this shift by stating that he had come to feel that the experimentation of the avant-garde had gone too far from the expressive, non-formal qualities of Western music: 'The avant-garde gave one an illusion of universalism. The musical world of Stockhausen, Nono, Boulez and Cage was for us, the young – hemmed in by the aesthetics of socialist realism, then the official canon in our country – a liberation...I was quick to realise however, that this novelty, this experimentation and formal speculation, is more destructive than constructive; I realised the Utopian quality of its Promethean tone'. Penderecki concluded that he was 'saved from the avant-garde snare of formalism by a return to tradition'.[11]


Greetings and Many Thanks for the reference!  I do recall Penderecki basically saying that he had reached a dead end with the Hiroshima/Devils of Loudon/etc. style, and I also recall how some people were shocked by the Second Symphony c.35 years ago and then by subsequent works.

I once attended a Cleveland Orchestra concert in the 1990's (I think, possibly the early 2000's) where the opening work was his Viola Concerto.  I would need to hear it again, but my impression was that a good deal of it reminded me of the opening minutes of Schoenberg's Pelleas und Melisande.   Certainly things became more energetic during the work, but that impression remained with me. 

The rest of the concert was filled by Bruckner's   Fifth Symphony!

Well, one could easily argue that the opening motif of the symphony is based on the Christmas carol. The melodic material opening the symphony consists of a descending minor third (repeated thrice), an ascending major seventh, followed by another descending minor third. Compare that to the beginning of "Silent night", which is essentially two descending minor thirds (slightly embellished), an ascending seventh (a minor seventh, but still), and another descending minor third. Once you see the similarity, I'm sure you will be able to hear it too. The motif is a sort of distorted version of (or rather a variation on) the Christmas carol, at least that's how I would interpret it. I think the title of the symphony comes from the composer (I'm not 100% sure, though?).

Yes, I think it is easily argued also.  0:)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: relm1 on August 31, 2018, 03:10:33 PM
Am I too greedy to want a Symphony No. 9 from him?  He's had such a wonderful and interesting musical trajectory that I need a No. 9 that sums it all up and is the culmination of everything that has come before.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Cato on September 01, 2018, 04:07:07 AM
I came across this comment in a review (by Phillip Scott of Fanfare ) of a complete set of Karl Amadeus Hartmann's symphonies, and I thought it applied to Penderecki, at least tangentially:

Quote
Hartmann revitalized the Austro-German symphonic tradition in the mid-20th century, at a time when the symphony was famously “dead.” Boulez and Stockhausen had no time for his vast canvasses, but he knew what he was doing. From the vantage point of 2014 we can see that the revolutionaries of half a century ago were writing in a stylistic cul de sac . Their music is not to be dismissed, but too often they and their imitators discarded all the historical bathwater––and we know what is liable to happen in that scenario. Conversely, Hartmann’s output has gained in stature with time. The fact that it is now far removed from the events that colored it does not diminish its power to speak to us, which is all the more reason to celebrate this excellent release.

Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Cato on December 04, 2018, 11:40:17 AM

His official website is el sucko profundo   ???   and seems not to have been properly updated in 5 years or more.

Schott Publishing offers a preview of the score for the Sixth Symphony (Chinese Songs).

https://en.schott-music.com/shop/6-sinfonie-chinesische-lieder-no358733.html (https://en.schott-music.com/shop/6-sinfonie-chinesische-lieder-no358733.html)


6th symphony to be (finally) performed in 4 days. He says it's his last experience in the genre:

No recording of the Sixth Symphony yet.   Nothing on YouTube.  His website does not show the Sixth (subtitled "Chinese songs," in the German translation of Hans Bethge ) among his list of works.

Anybody have any news?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: greg on December 04, 2018, 12:06:47 PM
Speaking of symphony 6, i read about it being performed last year but still could find no info, either.

Which ties back to my biggest frustration about classical music in general- even for some of the greatest living composers, very few people really give a shit about new music, and it can be very hard to get a hold of, as performances are prioritized over recordings.

I'd love to listen to Symphony 6, but it's like no one really cares...
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Cato on December 04, 2018, 02:44:18 PM
Speaking of symphony 6, i read about it being performed last year but still could find no info, either.

Which ties back to my biggest frustration about classical music in general- even for some of the greatest living composers, very few people really give a shit about new music, and it can be very hard to get a hold of, as performances are prioritized over recordings.


I'd love to listen to Symphony 6, but it's like no one really cares...


I understand your frustration, but the lowest common denominator sells: two or three drug-addled morons pound out a beat, while some cocained doggerel chanter spits out obscenities, their company promotes them as "geniuses with a message," and for 18 months they are more famous than Jesus  0:)   ;)

Twenty years ago or so, I found copies of a popular magazine from the 1940's with an advertisement from RCA (Radio Corporation of America).  The ad pushed RCA record players by offering....A Guide to Classical Music!  It showed the typical 1940's guy in a suit about to enter a concert hall, and he is remarking to his wife: "Just think: a few weeks ago I didn't know Brahms from Beethoven."    If you bought the record player, you received a set of records to guide you through the history of Western Music.

The assumption was that readers of this magazine were likely to want to know more about - and listen to - classical music.  The assumption was that a market existed for it, perhaps not on the level of Frank Sinatra, but big enough to use this desire as a hook to sell their products.  And if people did not WANT to know more, there was an implication in the ad that they SHOULD, in order to be considered educated and well-rounded adults.

It is all gone! 

In 1937, Universal Studios produced a hit musical comedy with teenage sensation (16 years old at the time!)  Deanna Durbin using the following music:

    "Symphony No. 5 in E minor: Fourth Movement" (Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky) performed by a symphony orchestra conducted by    Leopold Stokowski
    "It's Raining Sunbeams" (Friedrich Hollaender, Sam Coslow) performed by Deanna Durbin
    "Rakoczy March" (Hector Berlioz) performed by a symphony orchestra conducted by Leopold Stokowski
    "A Heart That's Free" (Alfred G. Robyn, Thomas Railey) performed by Deanna Durbin
    "Zampa, ou la fiancée de marbre: Overture" (Ferdinand Hérold) performed by the unemployed orchestra
    "For He's a Jolly Good Fellow" (Traditional) performed by the unemployed orchestra
    "Lohengrin: Prelude to Act III" (Richard Wagner) performed by a symphony orchestra conducted by Leopold Stokowski
   "Brindisi" (Drinking Song) from (Verdi's opera La Traviata.  performed by Deanna Durbin
    "Alleluja" from the motet "Exultate, jubilate" (K.165) (Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart) performed by Deanna Durbin.

The movie used Leopold Stokowski playing himself, and I highlighted what Deanna Durbin sings in the movie: two popular songs and the Verdi and Mozart pieces.

Now imagine taking this soundtrack to a movie studio today and suggesting using e.g. Taylor Swift
as the singer and Michael Tilson-Thomas as himself!   ;)

Yes, everyone knows what would happen! 

The movie?


(http://emanuellevy.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/100_men_and_a_girl_poster.jpg)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: greg on December 05, 2018, 10:59:29 AM
Yep, you won't see that today.  :-X

Also mixed feelings about convincing others to try classical music to be more well rounded... It's better than nothing, for sure. But it should be about enjoyment rather than self improvement. It should be cake, not broccoli... I guess a lot of people are not very musically inclined  :P

Maybe the only way the future has any chance is if we put some famous rapper and made him write modern style orchestral works and talk about composers...  ??? ::)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: SymphonicAddict on January 09, 2019, 05:04:10 PM
I've given some spins to some works of his:

Fonogrammi
Capriccio for oboe and strings
Sonata for cello and orchestra
Capriccio for violin and orchestra
Partita for harpsichord, electric guitar, bass guitar, harp, double bass and chamber orchestra
(quite a long name btw!)

By listening to these works, I seem to agree with those claiming that his early works are better than the most modern ones. Oh my goodness, what demonic stuff!! Mercilessly impressive, fascinating, weird, bizarre, inventive, intriguing, there is such a wealth of ideas and cacophonic sonorities/textures that simply my facial expression to all of them is  :o  :o  :o

I already knew some of his other works of this period (Symphony No. 1, Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima, De natura sonoris I & II, Kosmogonia, and Polymorphia) and I found them all great as well.

It's quite good to refresh my ears with this kind of music.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: kyjo on January 09, 2019, 09:36:58 PM
I've given some spins to some works of his:

Fonogrammi
Capriccio for oboe and strings
Sonata for cello and orchestra
Capriccio for violin and orchestra
Partita for harpsichord, electric guitar, bass guitar, harp, double bass and chamber orchestra
(quite a long name btw!)

By listening to these works, I seem to agree with those claiming that his early works are better than the most modern ones. Oh my goodness, what demonic stuff!! Mercilessly impressive, fascinating, weird, bizarre, inventive, intriguing, there is such a wealth of ideas and cacophonic sonorities/textures that simply my facial expression to all of them is  :o  :o  :o

I already knew some of his other works of this period (Symphony No. 1, Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima, De natura sonoris I & II, Kosmogonia, and Polymorphia) and I found them all great as well.

It's quite good to refresh my ears with this kind of music.

Very interesting, Cesar - thanks for the post. I've always been a bit "scared" of Penderecki's early works, but I should give them a try based on your enthusiasm!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: SymphonicAddict on January 10, 2019, 10:04:48 AM
Very interesting, Cesar - thanks for the post. I've always been a bit "scared" of Penderecki's early works, but I should give them a try based on your enthusiasm!

Anyone who is receptive and curious shouldn't have any problem with that music. The scary feeling is precisely the biggest attractive of those works, the nightmare atmospheres they evoke.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Cato on January 15, 2019, 11:42:45 AM
Anyone who is receptive and curious shouldn't have any problem with that music. The scary feeling is precisely the biggest attractive of those works, the nightmare atmospheres they evoke.

Quite true!

I came across this performance today: What say ye about the "Resurrection Piano Concerto" from 15 years ago or so?

https://www.youtube.com/v/i-NBM7yHtzg
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: SymphonicAddict on January 17, 2019, 10:46:35 AM
Quite true!

I came across this performance today: What say ye about the "Resurrection Piano Concerto" from 15 years ago or so?

https://www.youtube.com/v/i-NBM7yHtzg

I'm listening to it right now. I didn't recall how good it is! It reminds me of Shostakovich, especially at the beginning. As usual with this composer, the atmosphere is raw, serious, albeit all is more concentrated and there are no excessive cacophonies. I like that intensity it deploys and those motoric rhythms too.

To me, it's one of the best works of the 21st century.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: SymphonicAddict on January 17, 2019, 11:17:00 AM
Just the concerto ended. Wow! It was much more impressive than expected! A powerful rediscovery. Those grandiloquent and uplifting climaxes were the perfect contrast for the overall mood of the work. I reaffirm it's a superlative work.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: relm1 on January 17, 2019, 05:02:58 PM
Just the concerto ended. Wow! It was much more impressive than expected! A powerful rediscovery. Those grandiloquent and uplifting climaxes were the perfect contrast for the overall mood of the work. I reaffirm it's a superlative work.

Agreed, I loved it immediately and found it more vigorous than some of his other contemporary works which was a good thing.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on January 18, 2019, 07:43:44 AM
I'm a huge fan of Penderecki's Piano Concerto. I've had the Naxos recording of it for a number of years now and it's always a joy to listen to it. The video performance posted above made me learn about the extra brass instruments he deploys for the climactic statement of the chorale. The passage that follows that with gong strikes and pre-recorded tolling church bells is fantastic too!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 18, 2019, 04:39:04 PM
I have that Naxos disc, but have never gotten to it. Should rectify that...
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on January 23, 2019, 01:36:12 AM
I've ordered my next Penderecki disc. It includes Concerto Grosso No. 1 for three cellos and orchestra, Largo, and Sonata, both for single cello and orchestra.

I wonder if Wit and co will get around to recording more of his works. Some gaps I can think of off the top of my head are Cello Concerto No. 1, Concerto Grosso No. 2 (five clarinets and orchestra), Concerto Doppio (violin, cello and orchestra), the revised Symphony No. 8, Symphony No. 6.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: SymphonicAddict on January 24, 2019, 04:35:02 PM
I've ordered my next Penderecki disc. It includes Concerto Grosso No. 1 for three cellos and orchestra, Largo, and Sonata, both for single cello and orchestra.

I wonder if Wit and co will get around to recording more of his works. Some gaps I can think of off the top of my head are Cello Concerto No. 1, Concerto Grosso No. 2 (five clarinets and orchestra), Concerto Doppio (violin, cello and orchestra), the revised Symphony No. 8, Symphony No. 6.

A great purchase. I've listened to those cello works and I can say they are rewarding. I like that dark and hopeless style too, more subdued than that of his early period.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on January 26, 2019, 06:45:56 AM
Yep. I've listened to the Concerto Grosso twice now, and I've already latched onto a few passages that I really like.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: SymphonicAddict on September 17, 2019, 11:07:59 AM
(https://img.discogs.com/_y5BjSh63HuPnDaZj_54K0nI7bM=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-7060305-1432765999-1120.jpeg.jpg)

My first time listening to Utrenja, and wow!! It is a most shocking work!! I can't think of a darker, more nightmarish or more frightening piece of music about Christ. Penderecki at the height of his powers in his early period. This man is a magician to conjure up eerie sceneries. This was thoroughly impressive. As a piece of advice: never listen to this work being alone and/or at night! Easily one of my favorite choral works ever.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on September 21, 2019, 09:28:47 AM
Whether it's a good choice as a first Penderecki work, idk, but Utrenja was the first Penderecki work I bought. I was fascinated by the variety of sounds made by both instrumental and vocal forces. I find it a tough nut to crack, and one of the major factors in this is the lack of a printed libretto. Makes an already-difficult work even more challenging to follow. I can't even find a libretto anywhere on the internet.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Cato on September 21, 2019, 02:06:33 PM
Whether it's a good choice as a first Penderecki work, idk, but Utrenja was the first Penderecki work I bought. I was fascinated by the variety of sounds made by both instrumental and vocal forces. I find it a tough nut to crack, and one of the major factors in this is the lack of a printed libretto. Makes an already-difficult work even more challenging to follow. I can't even find a libretto anywhere on the internet.

Let me check my archives on Monday!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: deprofundis on November 28, 2019, 05:15:18 PM
I firmly believe none is darker than old Penderecki works. St Luke's passion is a great favourite and Utrenja is creepy as hell heathen.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Symphonic Addict on November 28, 2019, 08:17:06 PM
I firmly believe none is darker than old Penderecki works. St Luke's passion is a great favourite and Utrenja is creepy as hell heathen.

St Luke's Passion is on my radar. If it is as good (or better) as Utrenja, definitely I want to hear it.

BTW, I recognize you from another site.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Cato on November 29, 2019, 04:15:31 AM
Whether it's a good choice as a first Penderecki work, idk, but Utrenja was the first Penderecki work I bought. I was fascinated by the variety of sounds made by both instrumental and vocal forces. I find it a tough nut to crack, and one of the major factors in this is the lack of a printed libretto. Makes an already-difficult work even more challenging to follow. I can't even find a libretto anywhere on the internet.

I finally remembered after three months to check The Vast Cato Archives, and I have the score for Utrneja, Part I.   Let me so how much time it would take to extract a translation.

Symphony #6 anyone?  It seems not to have caused any fuss: I can only find two premieres, one in China and one in Dresden, the latter 18 months ago.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: vers la flamme on November 29, 2019, 08:31:03 AM
I got my hands on the Naxos disc with the 3rd symphony, the Threnody, and De natura sonoris II. That latter work is really awesome. I haven't heard the rest of it yet. I am new to Penderecki's music and not always in the mood for it but I think that he is an important composer.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on November 29, 2019, 08:50:30 AM
St Luke's Passion is on my radar. If it is as good (or better) as Utrenja, definitely I want to hear it.

BTW, I recognize you from another site.

I find the Passion easier to digest than Utrenja. It's still intense, but the inclusion of the sung text helps a lot. I've seen it said that Utrenja can be seen as a sequel to the Passion, its two parts (composed and premiered separately, it must be said) perhaps dealing with or reflecting on the events of Holy Saturday and Easter Sunday respectively.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: deprofundis on November 29, 2019, 09:02:52 AM
Mister Penderecki is Great, hello sir From Canada, I think your early works are pure genius, sir.

Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 30, 2019, 08:32:27 AM
Mister Penderecki is Great, hello sir From Canada, I think your early works are pure genius, sir.

Umm...yeah. I don’t think Penderecki is reading this. ???
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Symphonic Addict on March 19, 2020, 01:25:05 PM
At last the very delayed Symphony No. 6 Chinese Songs:

(https://i1.sndcdn.com/artworks-000679245289-iq9mrt-t500x500.jpg)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: greg on March 19, 2020, 03:28:19 PM
At last the very delayed Symphony No. 6 Chinese Songs:

(https://i1.sndcdn.com/artworks-000679245289-iq9mrt-t500x500.jpg)
Am I dreaming?  ???

Preordered.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Symphonic Addict on March 19, 2020, 04:26:29 PM
Am I dreaming?  ???

Preordered.

Well, stop dreaming and make it real.  ;)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Cato on March 19, 2020, 04:55:04 PM
At last the very delayed Symphony No. 6 Chinese Songs:

(https://i1.sndcdn.com/artworks-000679245289-iq9mrt-t500x500.jpg)

I was just wondering about that work a few days ago!  Many thanks!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on March 21, 2020, 11:04:51 AM
Fantastic! Finally the cycle is complete.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: relm1 on March 21, 2020, 03:40:36 PM
Fantastic! Finally the cycle is complete.

Dammit, I want a No. 9!  And it would be his magnum opus.  The work that ties his early works and brings them full circle to his later neo-romantic style.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: relm1 on March 22, 2020, 04:33:10 PM
At last the very delayed Symphony No. 6 Chinese Songs:

(https://i1.sndcdn.com/artworks-000679245289-iq9mrt-t500x500.jpg)

Just listened to this.  I think the Symphony is very beautiful!  It reminds me of Mahler's Das Lied von Der Erde though without any of the fast or loud moments.  Like Mahler's song cycle, this work isn't quite a symphony but more of song cycle and sung in German but of Chinese songs.  The general feel is lyrical, somewhat impressionistic, and exotic oriental song cycle.  It's a lovely and gentle work.  There is no angst in it at all but it does have a yearning quality.  I don't think I've heard anything from Penderecki that sounds like this.  In contrast, the Viola Concerto is what I consider typical of his late romantic style though here it is arranged for clarinet and strings.  This is a very fine disk. 
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Symphonic Addict on March 22, 2020, 04:38:21 PM
Just listened to this.  I think the Symphony is very beautiful!  It reminds me of Mahler's Das Lied von Der Erde though without any of the fast or loud moments.  Like Mahler's song cycle, this work isn't quite a symphony but more of song cycle and sung in German but of Chinese songs.  The general feel is lyrical, somewhat impressionistic, and exotic oriental song cycle.  It's a lovely and gentle work.  There is no angst in it at all but it does have a yearning quality.  I don't think I've heard anything from Penderecki that sounds like this.  In contrast, the Viola Concerto is what I consider typical of his late romantic style though here it is arranged for clarinet and strings.  This is a very fine disk.

You piqued my curiosity now. Sounds lovely for your description. It's definitely something I have to hear soon!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on March 23, 2020, 08:24:56 AM
Dammit, I want a No. 9!  And it would be his magnum opus.  The work that ties his early works and brings them full circle to his later neo-romantic style.

Given his penchant for revising works and re-titling them (see Symphony No. 7, "Seven Gates of Jerusalem"), I've contemplated the idea of his song cycle "A sea of dreams did breathe on me..." could potentially be seen as his 9th Symphony.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: schnittkease on March 29, 2020, 12:43:05 AM
RIP Krzysztof Penderecki (1933-2020). This is a huge blow as he was one of the first 'contemporary' composers I was introduced to.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: vers la flamme on March 29, 2020, 03:37:43 AM
Rest in peace to one of the greatest living composers...  :( The news hit me really hard, even though I'm not as familiar with his music as I should be. I'll be seeking out more of it, now.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: 71 dB on March 29, 2020, 04:17:03 AM
RIP Krzysztof Penderecki (1933-2020). This is a huge blow as he was one of the first 'contemporary' composers I was introduced to.

Sad news. Did Corona virus have anything to do with this? I haven't explored his music and don't know it apart from what Kubrick/Lynch used in their works...
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: steve ridgway on March 29, 2020, 04:48:25 AM
Sad news. Did Corona virus have anything to do with this? I haven't explored his music and don't know it apart from what Kubrick/Lynch used in their works...

Apparently he had a long and serious illness, his carer had the virus but he tested negative. I like a lot of his music, the 1960s avant garde as well as the later choral religious works and neo-romantic symphonies (although that could be as I don't listen to real romantic symphonies). There are a load of relatively cheap ones on the Naxos label.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: MusicTurner on March 29, 2020, 05:29:12 AM
I've tried to be updated also regarding major, contemporary composers. Here's the collected items, LPs and CDs.

Favourites are the vocal works generally and the Naxos CD that includes the Partita and the Horn Concerto, it is the most varied and attractive Penderecki disc I know (I am listening to it now ...)

Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on March 29, 2020, 07:50:15 AM
This still hit me like a brick just now, even knowing how old he was. Still, what a body of music he's left us with. There are a few gaps in the collection I need to plug in.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: greg on March 29, 2020, 08:21:33 AM
Ugh.
Probably was my favorite living composer...

(so glad he at least got the 6th symphony out- will be arriving sometime this week... a gap in the numbering forever would have been intolerable lol)

Tbh the times I'd check up on this thread I was often anticipating the dread of this news. He just doesn't have the look of someone who would live to be extremely old- unlike someone like Elliott Carter. So 86 years old- fantastic job.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Symphonic Addict on March 29, 2020, 12:17:54 PM
Just some weeks ago I had revisited his symphonies. A most important loss in these dramatic times and a most significant legacy he left us. Rest in peace.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on March 29, 2020, 12:42:08 PM
Today I listened to the Piano Concerto ("Resurrection") and Utrenja.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: relm1 on March 30, 2020, 06:45:45 AM
Today I listened to the Piano Concerto ("Resurrection") and Utrenja.

Two very fine works. 
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: vers la flamme on March 31, 2020, 04:57:24 AM
Maybe someone can help me with this.

Penderecki is a composer I have long been meaning to explore in further depth, and what better time than now, in honor of his memory. But he wrote sooo much music, I don't know where to start. To the Penderecki die-hards of GMG, if you had to choose five essential works of Penderecki, what would they be? Either representing multiple parts of his career, or focusing on a certain era, whatever is fine. Just curious, perhaps it's not even possible to distill his legacy into 5 works!

FWIW, the works of his I like are the Metamorphosen concerto, De natura sonoris II, Fluorescences... and that's about it!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on March 31, 2020, 05:04:10 AM
Those works you mentioned are all very good. I do need to listen to (both) Violin Concertos more though. Not sure if you've heard any of these and perhaps dismissed them, but here goes.

Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima (1960)
St. Luke Passion (1966)
Symphony No. 2 (1980)
Symphony No. 7 ("Seven Gates of Jerusalem") (1996)
Piano Concerto ("Resurrection") (2002)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: vers la flamme on March 31, 2020, 06:30:43 AM
Those works you mentioned are all very good. I do need to listen to (both) Violin Concertos more though. Not sure if you've heard any of these and perhaps dismissed them, but here goes.

Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima (1960)
St. Luke Passion (1966)
Symphony No. 2 (1980)
Symphony No. 7 ("Seven Gates of Jerusalem") (1996)
Piano Concerto ("Resurrection") (2002)

Awesome, thanks, this should be a good starting point for me. I have heard the Threnody for the record, not sure why I did not mention it as it's a great piece. But I'll seek out the Luke Passion and a couple of the symphonies. Is Penderecki's own Argo recording the way to go for the Luke Passion? The Wit looks good too. I'll sample both and see what I think.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: North Star on April 02, 2020, 09:58:27 AM
I recall enjoying Kosmogonia a lot, but haven't heard that many other works yet.
https://www.youtube.com/v/JyC7WBuyQYo
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 02, 2020, 10:57:01 AM
Is Penderecki's own Argo recording the way to go for the Luke Passion? The Wit looks good too. I'll sample both and see what I think.

The Wit is good, better than the older recordings I think.

I'm not crazy about his symphonies; I don't think he really had the structural mind for that type of composition. But I do like No. 3 (probably his most fun neo-romantic symphony) and No. 8 which is not really a symphony at all, but an orchestral song cycle.

A minor gem: Als Jakob erwachte (AKA Dream of Jacob), which you already know if you've seen The Shining.

But how could I forget - his great chamber work, the Sextet! This dates from 2000 and is one the best chamber works by anyone in recent decades. Even if you don't much like his neo-Romantic approach, you should hear this lively and soulful piece.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 02, 2020, 04:20:27 PM
A shame Penderecki has passed on. He seemed to be a gentleman. R.I.P., Maestro Penderecki.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Joaquimhock on April 02, 2020, 10:18:34 PM
I would add :

Utrenja (mesmerizing and terrifying)

Cello concerto N°2 (dark and lyrical)

Horn concerto "winterreise" a relatively shor piece with great melodic inspiration.


He will be burried in the Polish Pantheon in Saints Peter and Paul's church in Cracow, a superb  baroque church where the great writer Slawomir Mrozek has also been buried a few years ago.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: pjme on April 02, 2020, 11:37:27 PM
You piqued my curiosity now. Sounds lovely for your description. It's definitely something I have to hear soon!

"It reminds me of Mahler's Das Lied von Der Erde though without any of the fast or loud moments.  Like Mahler's song cycle, this work isn't quite a symphony but more of song cycle and sung in German but of Chinese songs".

"Bethge published several volumes of poems (chiefly on love and nature), diaries, travelogues, short stories, essays and plays. He had great success as an editor of modern poetry, German and foreign. But above all, his poetic translations of oriental classics (starting in 1907) gained him wide recognition, in spite of their reliance on previous translators. The first such book, "The Chinese Flute", had a printing of 100,000 copies. Gustav Mahler used six of its poems in Das Lied von der Erde. The fresh, musical rhythm of Bethge's language and his free versification inspired settings by more than 180 other composers, among them Richard Strauss, Karol Szymanowski, Arnold Schoenberg, Anton Webern, Hanns Eisler, Viktor Ullmann, Gottfried von Einem, Ernst Krenek, Artur Immisch, Ludvig Irgens-Jensen[1], Paul Graener, Bohuslav Martinů, Ernst Toch, Fartein Valen, Krzysztof Penderecki and Egon Wellesz."

Source:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Bethge_(poet)

Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Symphonic Addict on April 05, 2020, 03:59:12 PM
Listening to the 6th Symphony now. Oh, just beautiful! The poetic blended with the exotic in a superb way. And it's quite different from many of his other works, this is subdued, delicate, atmospheric, nocturnal, even sensuous, though it's not devoid of certain agitation in a few passages. The addition of Chinese instrument(s) was a singular and effective stroke of genius, and so is the orchestration overall.

I'm very pleased to have heard this lovely piece.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Cato on April 05, 2020, 04:05:52 PM
Here is the opening movement: apparently each one is separate YouTube video.

https://www.youtube.com/v/cmIDXnOJTgg
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: greg on April 06, 2020, 07:02:54 AM
Just listened to the new Penderecki CD and the Symphony is pretty good. It's more of a song cycle, though... I kinda wonder if this wasn't originally intended to be a Symphony, but he just wanted to fill in the gap since he knew his health was declining.

Very dreamy, quite unlike what I know of his stuff though you do get moments of hints that it's him, especially the way he orchestrates.

The clarinet concerto is alright, a pretty typical work of his I guess.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: vandermolen on April 06, 2020, 07:09:51 AM
Ok then. I only really know the St Luke's Passion, which our Polish au pair gave to us when I was about 15 and I couldn't make sense of and the Christmas Symphony, which I had on LP and liked. In view of my liking for more 'traditional composers' what else should I be listening to?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 06, 2020, 07:24:03 AM
In view of my liking for more 'traditional composers' what else should I be listening to?

The Naxos chamber music disc should be your first stop:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51cufXtDigL.jpg)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: greg on April 06, 2020, 07:25:52 AM
In view of my liking for more 'traditional composers' what else should I be listening to?
Tbh the 6th is the most 'traditional' work of his that I've heard, though there's probably more in that style...

also kinda hard to say since a lot of his music rides the line between experimental and traditional...
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: vandermolen on April 06, 2020, 07:28:21 AM
The Naxos chamber music disc should be your first stop:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51cufXtDigL.jpg)

Thank you very much and greg too. In due course I shall investigate these discs. Yesterday the BBC radio repeated an interesting interview with Penderecki made a few years ago.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: vers la flamme on October 28, 2020, 03:04:01 PM
Penderecki's music is starting to click a little bit with me: in the past few days I've really enjoyed the St. Luke Passion, the Third Symphony, and three early avant-garde pieces (the Threnody, Fluorescences, and De natura sonoris II) all on Naxos with Antoni Wit. I've also heard and enjoyed the Violin Concerto to Anne-Sophie Mutter in the past. I have it on CD but haven't broken it out in some time. I just ordered Symphony No.8, called "Lieder der Vergänglichkeit", and I'm curious about some of the other larger scale choral works like the Polish Requiem, the Credo, and Utrenja. The opera Devils of Loudun looks cool too, though I'm not sure whether or not it can be had on CD.

Anyone else listening to Penderecki lately? The St Luke Passion is very dark, but utterly beautiful.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: relm1 on October 28, 2020, 04:07:21 PM
I liked his opera, Paradise Lost.  The whole opera was on youtube and has lots of Polish Requiem vibe in it (dark and dramatic).
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: vers la flamme on November 03, 2020, 02:49:08 AM
I just got this with the 8th symphony, the "Lieder der Vergänglichkeit":

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61AwIJ6idRL._SX500_.jpg)

... which sadly became Penderecki's last symphony after his death this year. Based off of a first listen I think it's brilliant. For a large-scale choral symphony like this it does seem to feel kind of low-key, ie. not really over the top like one might expect. These Antoni Wit/Warsaw Philharmonic recordings are excellent; I want them all.

Edit: I understand the 8th has been revised at least once since this recording came out. Would this happen to be the final version?...:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41BOEYm4yVL.jpg)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on November 03, 2020, 05:05:48 AM
I believe so, yes.

While Penderecki was alive, I was almost half-expecting his choral-orchestral song cycle "A Sea of Dreams Did Breathe On Me" to be declared his 9th Symphony, given how he's done that once or twice before, most notably with Seven Gates of Jerusalem, and given the song cycle's structure, with songs grouped into three large parts. Alas, it hasn't happened, but it was a theory of mine.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: relm1 on November 03, 2020, 07:36:19 AM
I really liked his No. 6 thinking it showed a new side of him I wasn't expecting.  Less dark and dramatic, more poetic and lyrical.  I also considered it his last symphony chronologically, is that not the case?  My teacher interviewed him not long ago and I asked her to ask about it and he said something about it's written in his head but hadn't written it down yet so I believed it came after No. 8.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on November 03, 2020, 10:05:48 AM
Yeah, his symphonies are not numbered in the order they appeared in public. For instance, No. 3 was only completed in 1995, after the 4th (1989) and 5th (1992). And the aforementioned No. 7 (1996) was probably numbered that due to the title "Seven Gates of Jerusalem", the fact it has 7 movements, the recurrence of 7-note patterns, and so on.
Title: Penderecki's The Devils of Loudun on YouTube
Post by: Brewski on February 10, 2021, 08:44:08 AM
Just found this today: the 1969 film, directed by Rolf Liebermann for German television. Is there no end to what you can find on YouTube?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-zPEq48Sxg

--Bruce
Title: Re: Penderecki's The Devils of Loudun on YouTube
Post by: OrchestralNut on February 13, 2021, 02:18:12 PM
Just found this today: the 1969 film, directed by Rolf Liebermann for German television. Is there no end to what you can find on YouTube?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-zPEq48Sxg

--Bruce

Thanks for sharing this, Bruce. I have it saved to view later.
Title: Re: Penderecki's The Devils of Loudun on YouTube
Post by: OrchestralNut on February 14, 2021, 11:24:59 AM
Just found this today: the 1969 film, directed by Rolf Liebermann for German television. Is there no end to what you can find on YouTube?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-zPEq48Sxg

--Bruce

Only about forty minutes in but I am finding the music terrifying but utterly compelling!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 24, 2021, 06:23:12 PM
Listening to the 6th Symphony now. Oh, just beautiful! The poetic blended with the exotic in a superb way. And it's quite different from many of his other works, this is subdued, delicate, atmospheric, nocturnal, even sensuous, though it's not devoid of certain agitation in a few passages. The addition of Chinese instrument(s) was a singular and effective stroke of genius, and so is the orchestration overall.

I'm very pleased to have heard this lovely piece.

And I’m so thankful for not only the current recording of it, but the fact that Penderecki actually finished it. For years, we had an incomplete cycle --- is there a 6th? Will there be a 6th? I’m not sure if the composer himself was able to hear the recording that was made as it was released in 2019 (of course, he passed away in 2020), but he should be proud of this achievement. It is a gorgeous work and that Chinese instrument (an erhu, which I believe is one of the oldest instruments in the world, but don’t quote me on this) lends an exotic, otherworldly color to the music. I just listened to this work for the first-time yesterday and couldn’t believe my ears what I was hearing. It seems a hat-tip to Mahler, but, at the same time, the music is filtered through Penderecki’s own prism. To say we lost a master last year, would be an understatement. I’m just relieved that his music has finally clicked with me. I’m completely onboard with both the early, avant-garde works and his turn to a more Neo-Romantic style. Honestly, it still sounds like him no matter the style its written in and this is a testament to his unique and unmistakable approach.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Symphonic Addict on August 24, 2021, 07:51:36 PM
And I’m so thankful for not only the current recording of it, but the fact that Penderecki actually finished it. For years, we had an incomplete cycle --- is there a 6th? Will there be a 6th? I’m not sure if the composer himself was able to hear the recording that was made as it was released in 2019 (of course, he passed away in 2020), but he should be proud of this achievement. It is a gorgeous work and that Chinese instrument (an erhu, which I believe is one of the oldest instruments in the world, but don’t quote me on this) lends an exotic, otherworldly color to the music. I just listened to this work for the first-time yesterday and couldn’t believe my ears what I was hearing. It seems a hat-tip to Mahler, but, at the same time, the music is filtered through Penderecki’s own prism. To say we lost a master last year, would be an understatement. I’m just relieved that his music has finally clicked with me. I’m completely onboard with both the early, avant-garde works and his turn to a more Neo-Romantic style. Honestly, it still sounds like him no matter the style its written in and this is a testament to his unique and unmistakable approach.

Glad to see your enthusiasm about this magical piece. I concur with you, John. I think the wait for the delayed 6th Symphony paid dividends because it's really a unique work in Penderecki's output. I really hope he could hear this work before dying.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 24, 2021, 07:56:53 PM
Glad to see your enthusiasm about this magical piece. I concur with you, John. I think the wait for the delayed 6th Symphony paid dividends because it's really a unique work in Penderecki's output. I really hope he could hear this work before dying.

Indeed. Have you heard A sea of dreams did breathe on me…? I think you’ll enjoy this work as well. There are two recordings of it. I haven’t heard the one on Dux, but the Wit on Naxos is excellent.

(https://albumart.primephonic.com/s900/747313306275.jpg)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Symphonic Addict on August 25, 2021, 04:59:15 PM
Indeed. Have you heard A sea of dreams did breathe on me…? I think you’ll enjoy this work as well. There are two recordings of it. I haven’t heard the one on Dux, but the Wit on Naxos is excellent.

(https://albumart.primephonic.com/s900/747313306275.jpg)

Good, John. How is the music?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 25, 2021, 05:36:39 PM
Good, John. How is the music?

Gorgeous. A must-listen.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 26, 2021, 06:41:29 AM
Some interesting interviews with Penderecki:

https://www.youtube.com/v/atz2MODHe5Q

https://www.youtube.com/v/jRA4iXo4Bu4

And a fantastic analysis video from Samuel Andreyev about Penderecki’s Capriccio for Violin and Orchestra:

https://www.youtube.com/v/8ptYtwggNRg

Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: kyjo on August 26, 2021, 02:05:14 PM
Not to rain on John’s parade, but Penderecki is one of those composers I just can’t get on board with. :-\ Whenever I listen to one of his works (be it early or late), I usually end up turning it off halfway through. To me, so much of it just sounds grey and depressing without the imaginative wit of Schnittke or the “heart” of Pettersson (to name two rather similar composers stylistically).
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 26, 2021, 07:14:00 PM
Not to rain on John’s parade, but Penderecki is one of those composers I just can’t get on board with. :-\ Whenever I listen to one of his works (be it early or late), I usually end up turning it off halfway through. To me, so much of it just sounds grey and depressing without the imaginative wit of Schnittke or the “heart” of Pettersson (to name two rather similar composers stylistically).

That’s fine. I actually shared a similar outlook at one point (you can go back and see my dismissal of his music many pages back on this very thread), but then something just happened to where I was finally able to appreciate his idiom. I can’t pinpoint it exactly, but I suppose a lot of it is my developing love for post-WWII avant-garde composers like Ligeti or Boulez. They kind of helped open that door, but when I finally understood Gubaidulina is when I understood Penderecki. This is a recent development in my own listening and I think a lot of stems from my own personal misery and depression. I don’t know, I just find it cathartic to listen to these composers like Penderecki, Schnittke, Gubaidulina, Pettersson et. al. It helps me cope with a world in which I’ve remained an outsider all of my life, so this outsider mentality I find in the afore mentioned composers resonates deeply with me.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 27, 2021, 04:08:01 AM
A follow-up to my previous message: not all of Penderecki’s music is ‘doom and gloom’. Give a listen to the Sinfoniettas, the Adagietto from Paradise Lost, A sea of dreams did breathe on me..., the Horn Concerto, Three Pieces in the Old Style, Symphony No. 6 et. al. I also want to say I think Kyle is forgetting about the bleak, withdrawn styles that Schnittke and Pettersson adapted in their later years. A prime example are Schnittke’s last symphonies --- these are desolate, bleak works shrouded in shadow with the bold exception of the last movement of his 8th symphony where it sounds like some kind of ascension into the heavens. Also, Pettersson’s style became more and more bleak and anguished as time wore on, especially after the middle trilogy of symphonies: the 6th, 7th and 8th. All three of these composers wrote dark, disturbed music, but I’d never call it depressing, because I don’t hear the music that way. Another quick note and what do we make of Shostakovich’s later style? How about Weinberg’s? These composers don’t exactly bask in the sunshine either. :)

I think Kyle will begin to enjoy Penderecki as he gains more listening experience, because I truly believe that if I can have a breakthrough with this composer, then anything is possible!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: relm1 on August 27, 2021, 04:46:47 AM
A follow-up to my previous message: not all of Penderecki’s music is ‘doom and gloom’. Give a listen to the Sinfoniettas, the Adagietto from Paradise Lost, A sea of dreams did breathe on me..., the Horn Concerto, Three Pieces in the Old Style, Symphony No. 6 et. al. I also want to say I think Kyle is forgetting about the bleak, withdrawn styles that Schnittke and Pettersson adapted in their later years. A prime example are Schnittke’s last symphonies --- these are desolate, bleak works shrouded in shadow with the bold exception of the last movement of his 8th symphony where it sounds like some kind of ascension into the heavens. Also, Pettersson’s style became more and more bleak and anguished as time wore on, especially after the middle trilogy of symphonies: the 6th, 7th and 8th. All three of these composers wrote dark, disturbed music, but I’d never call it depressing, because I don’t hear the music that way. Another quick note and what do we make of Shostakovich’s later style? How about Weinberg’s? These composers don’t exactly bask in the sunshine either. :)

I think Kyle will begin to enjoy Penderecki as he gains more listening experience, because I truly believe that if I can have a breakthrough with this composer, then anything is possible!

Piano concerto from 2001/2, rev 2007 is a rather exuberant piece and while dramatic, I wouldn't consider it gloom and doom.  I think No. 6 is an example of beauty and almost serenity - but I'm very confused about where to place that since I think it was one of his last works but might have been conceived a decade or two earlier.  Generally a gloomy composer in his late style with notable exceptions. 
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 27, 2021, 04:57:45 AM
Piano concerto from 2001/2, rev 2007 is a rather exuberant piece and while dramatic, I wouldn't consider it gloom and doom.  I think No. 6 is an example of beauty and almost serenity - but I'm very confused about where to place that since I think it was one of his last works but might have been conceived a decade or two earlier.  Generally a gloomy composer in his late style with notable exceptions.

Ah, yes! I had forgotten about the Piano Concerto, “Resurrection”. A fine piece for sure. Another point I’d like to make is a listener can’t let the surface of the music be their only determining factor when evaluating or trying to appreciate a composer. Penderecki, on the outside, is like a tree covered in razor wire, but underneath that exterior lies a beating heart and so much life. I suppose anyone coming from a heavy diet of say Milhaud or Mendelssohn (two composers who exhibit a fair amount of exuberance in their music for the most part) would be put off by Penderecki, but, at the same time, would it be fair for me to say that I can barely listen to Milhaud or Mendelssohn because there is a perceived lack of depth in their sunlit music? I think all kinds of music can be appreciated as long as one doesn’t get caught up listening to what’s on the surface, but try to find a deeper meaning in the music.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: vers la flamme on August 27, 2021, 12:22:09 PM
I just find it cathartic to listen to these composers like Penderecki, Schnittke, Gubaidulina, Pettersson et. al. It helps me cope with a world in which I’ve remained an outsider all of my life, so this outsider mentality I find in the afore mentioned composers resonates deeply with me.

Well said! I can certainly relate.

I think I've only heard two Penderecki symphonies, 3 (incidentally, used to fine effect in the film Shutter Island, picked by longtime Penderecki fan Robbie Robertson) and 8. Anyone have any input on where to go from here, with his symphonies?

Edit: Just realized I also have the first symphony on an EMI 2CD, so I will have to check that out asap.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: hvbias on August 27, 2021, 12:36:48 PM
Well said! I can certainly relate.

I think I've only heard two Penderecki symphonies, 3 (incidentally, used to fine effect in the film Shutter Island, picked by longtime Penderecki fan Robbie Robertson) and 8. Anyone have any input on where to go from here, with his symphonies?

Edit: Just realized I also have the first symphony on an EMI 2CD, so I will have to check that out asap.

Great soundtrack and film. One of those rare films I wanted to watch again immediately afterward to see if I could pick up on all the clues leading up to what we find out.

Edit: I have Penderecki conducting the symphonies on Dux. Is there anything further to be gained with the Antoni Wit cycle?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DavidW on August 27, 2021, 01:11:58 PM
Well said! I can certainly relate.

I think I've only heard two Penderecki symphonies, 3 (incidentally, used to fine effect in the film Shutter Island, picked by longtime Penderecki fan Robbie Robertson) and 8. Anyone have any input on where to go from here, with his symphonies?

Edit: Just realized I also have the first symphony on an EMI 2CD, so I will have to check that out asap.

The first symphony is my second favorite, but it is more challenging than his other symphonies.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Brewski on August 27, 2021, 02:44:29 PM
With all the Penderecki discussion, just wanted to put in a good word for his Song of Cherubim, which I discovered on this spectacular Dale Warland Singers recording years ago. I see there are a number of other versions (including tasty-looking ones from the Warsaw Philharmonic Choir and Tapiola Chamber Choir), but this one—with great sonics and pristine reverence—is pretty fine.

https://www.amazon.com/December-Stillness-Dale-Warland-Singers/dp/B000003M4S

--Bruce

Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: VonStupp on August 27, 2021, 03:01:15 PM
With all the Penderecki discussion, just wanted to put in a good word for his Song of Cherubim, which I discovered on this spectacular Dale Warland Singers recording years ago. I see there are a number of other versions (including tasty-looking ones from the Warsaw Philharmonic Choir and Tapiola Chamber Choir), but this one—with great sonics and pristine reverence—is pretty fine.

https://www.amazon.com/December-Stillness-Dale-Warland-Singers/dp/B000003M4S

--Bruce

Dale Warland's retirement some 20 years ago was a big hit to the region where I live, nonetheless those who love the larger American chamber choir sound. All of those recordings are winners and I treasure them greatly.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Symphonic Addict on August 27, 2021, 05:55:06 PM
A follow-up to my previous message: not all of Penderecki’s music is ‘doom and gloom’. Give a listen to the Sinfoniettas, the Adagietto from Paradise Lost, A sea of dreams did breathe on me..., the Horn Concerto, Three Pieces in the Old Style, Symphony No. 6 et. al. I also want to say I think Kyle is forgetting about the bleak, withdrawn styles that Schnittke and Pettersson adapted in their later years. A prime example are Schnittke’s last symphonies --- these are desolate, bleak works shrouded in shadow with the bold exception of the last movement of his 8th symphony where it sounds like some kind of ascension into the heavens. Also, Pettersson’s style became more and more bleak and anguished as time wore on, especially after the middle trilogy of symphonies: the 6th, 7th and 8th. All three of these composers wrote dark, disturbed music, but I’d never call it depressing, because I don’t hear the music that way. Another quick note and what do we make of Shostakovich’s later style? How about Weinberg’s? These composers don’t exactly bask in the sunshine either. :)

I don't hear a lot of Penderecki these days, but he's a firm favorite of mine. I find his aesthetics, coming from nightmarish avant-garde stuff to more-subdued-and-lyrical conceptions, truly captivating. I know more works of his first phase. The sonorities and effects there don't fail to open my mouth because of the astonishment they provoke on me. Maybe he's not a composer for everybody, but I'm glad many of his compositions do resonate with me too.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 27, 2021, 06:28:31 PM
Well said! I can certainly relate.

I think I've only heard two Penderecki symphonies, 3 (incidentally, used to fine effect in the film Shutter Island, picked by longtime Penderecki fan Robbie Robertson) and 8. Anyone have any input on where to go from here, with his symphonies?

Edit: Just realized I also have the first symphony on an EMI 2CD, so I will have to check that out asap.

Thanks. The 5th which is subtitled “Korean” and I’m not going to lie, but this one blew me away, but I need to hear another performance of it I think. I listened to the Penderecki-led performance on Dux which was excellent, but when I receive the Wit recording, I’ll definitely be giving it spin. There was one section in this symphony that I find just incredible, but I can’t remember exactly where it was. It actually almost had a Isang Yun sound to it --- pretty cool. I don’t know the 3rd and I haven’t heard the 8th symphony, which I believe is a song-symphony and the 7th (Seven Gates of Jerusalem) is a choral symphony. I also own that 2-CD EMI set (but the reissue of it as mine is actually Warner Classics). The first symphony is super fun! Experimental and in-your-face. It makes a nice contrast with the 2nd (“Christmas Symphony”), which is another one I need to revisit. Anyway, I’d check out the 4th and 5th as I rather enjoyed these works.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 27, 2021, 06:43:11 PM
I don't hear a lot of Penderecki these days, but he's a firm favorite of mine. I find his aesthetics, coming from nightmarish avant-garde stuff to more-subdued-and-lyrical conceptions. I know more works of his first phase. The sonorities and effects there don't fail to open my mouth because of the astonishment it provokes on me. Maybe he's not a composer for everybody, but I'm glad much of his compositions do resonate with me too.

Yeah, those early avant-garde works are astonishing in their sonorities and the way there’s always some kind of emotional outline in those works. His change of style to a more Neo-Romantic sound-world has also won me over. The Horn Concerto, “Winterreise” I listened to a few days ago was really something. I’m not sure if you’ve heard this work, but do check it out!
Title: Re: Penderecki's The Devils of Loudun on YouTube
Post by: OrchestralNut on August 28, 2021, 02:11:53 AM
Just found this today: the 1969 film, directed by Rolf Liebermann for German television. Is there no end to what you can find on YouTube?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-zPEq48Sxg

--Bruce

Just because of the recent discussion and interest in Penderecki, I am reposting Bruce's link to the visceral, captivating, made for TV production of Penderecki's opera The Devils of Loudun

Not being so much into opera myself, however, I found this to be terrific and recommend fans of the composer to check this out, especially if you are a fan of his early avant-garde style.  :)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on August 28, 2021, 02:14:36 AM
I am grateful to John (MI) for his gift of several Naxos Penderecki recordings years ago, which helped me discover his music.

I see that John has since repurchased several of those recordings again recently.  :D
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 28, 2021, 04:46:57 AM
I am grateful to John (MI) for his gift of several Naxos Penderecki recordings years ago, which helped me discover his music.

I see that John has since repurchased several of those recordings again recently.  :D

Yep, it’s Schnittke all over again! :P Oh and as I’ve said many times before, any time I can give someone the gift of music is a wonderful thing. :)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 28, 2021, 05:07:50 AM
Just because of the recent discussion and interest in Penderecki, I am reposting Bruce's link to the visceral, captivating, made for TV production of Penderecki's opera The Devils of Loudun

Not being so much into opera myself, however, I found this to be terrific and recommend fans of the composer to check this out, especially if you are a fan of his early avant-garde style.  :)

The problem is if someone wants to buy a recording of it all there is is that Philips recording, which is OOP, rare and if you do find one, incredibly expensive. I hope Decca reissues it, but I’m not going to hold my breath. ;)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Brewski on August 28, 2021, 06:17:00 AM
Dale Warland's retirement some 20 years ago was a big hit to the region where I live, nonetheless those who love the larger American chamber choir sound. All of those recordings are winners and I treasure them greatly.

So happy that you know of Warland, who really was one of the country's great choral conductors. And I totally agree about his body of work -- all fantastic recordings, with superb musicians.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: VonStupp on August 28, 2021, 06:40:10 AM
So happy that you know of Warland, who really was one of the country's great choral conductors. And I totally agree about his body of work -- all fantastic recordings, with superb musicians.

--Bruce

I sat next to Dale Warland at a choral convention many, many years ago and workshopped with him in the 70's. Suffice to say, the nicest of men and an excellent educator. I read just a few weeks ago that he received a lifetime achievement award as well as reading an interview with him from a few months ago which I linked below; nice to see he is still active. Luckily for us, I think Gothic Records has been going through the Dale Warland Singers unreleased back catalog.

https://www.messengernews.net/opinion/local-columns/2021/05/seeds-of-dale-warlands-musical-success-sown-in-badger-church-fdsh/ (https://www.messengernews.net/opinion/local-columns/2021/05/seeds-of-dale-warlands-musical-success-sown-in-badger-church-fdsh/)

VS
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: vers la flamme on August 28, 2021, 09:27:15 AM
Great soundtrack and film. One of those rare films I wanted to watch again immediately afterward to see if I could pick up on all the clues leading up to what we find out.

Edit: I have Penderecki conducting the symphonies on Dux. Is there anything further to be gained with the Antoni Wit cycle?

Agreed! Always fond of Scorcese's work, and of his soundtrack collaborations with Robbie Robertson.

If you ask me, there's always something further to be gained in hearing alternative interpretations of works.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 29, 2021, 09:34:31 AM
Here’s a pretty interesting video about the music of The Shining:

https://www.youtube.com/v/bbqfc1jjeMI
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: relm1 on August 29, 2021, 03:15:16 PM
Here’s a pretty interesting video about the music of The Shining:

https://www.youtube.com/v/bbqfc1jjeMI

Wow, that was very enlightening!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 29, 2021, 03:29:38 PM
Wow, that was very enlightening!

Yeah, I enjoyed this video, too. 8)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 29, 2021, 07:25:44 PM
I just finished watching this documentary about the composer:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71CVe85etIL._SL1037_.jpg)

An interesting documentary, but, for me, didn’t really tell me enough about his music. Some of the most valuable footage was when Janine Jansen and Julian Rachlin were rehearsing the composer’s Double Concerto in front of the composer, but also in the concert hall. Very cool to see this and the other valuable footage was of Penderecki as a young man in the 60s in a studio, but also taking a bow at the premier of his St. Luke Passion. Truly awesome to to see this and this was worth the price of admission. I’d love to see some documentary that actually goes into the backstories of some of his works and how they came to fruition like the afore mentioned St. Luke Passion or the String Quartet No. 3, “Leaves of an unwritten diary” just to give some examples. So this wasn’t a great documentary, but some of the footage was priceless.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 30, 2021, 06:34:32 PM
I continue to marvel at this composer’s music. Since I’ve “cracked his code” so to speak, I don’t believe I’ve heard a work that didn’t speak to me on some level. I’d love to hear some Penderecki in the concert hall which, according to Jonny Greenwood (of Radiohead fame) in the Penderecki documentary I watched last night, is the best way to hear his music, but this goes for any composer. He said there’s something strangely beautiful about hearing it in a concert hall that doesn’t quite translate that well on a recording. My counter-argument would be this is the only way I can listen to his music at the moment. I don’t live in Poland where I’m sure his music is performed quite frequently, but neither do I live in a classical music mecca like London, Berlin, Paris, Vienna, etc. either, so my chances of hearing his music aren’t too high. So I’m fine with his music on CD. 8)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on August 30, 2021, 11:39:48 PM
So happy that Penderecki seems to have clicked for you. All this talk in here is making me want to revisit his music again. And all the composers you mentioned some time ago as having "outsider" mentality...Schnittke, Pettersson, et al. are all among my favourites as well.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 31, 2021, 06:04:40 AM
So happy that Penderecki seems to have clicked for you. All this talk in here is making me want to revisit his music again. And all the composers you mentioned some time ago as having "outsider" mentality...Schnittke, Pettersson, et al. are all among my favourites as well.

Thanks, Maestro. Do you have a large Penderecki collection?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DavidW on August 31, 2021, 08:10:17 AM
Thanks, Maestro. Do you have a large Penderecki collection?

I'm not him but I used to have all of Penderecki's symphonies, concertos, vocal works and chamber works I could get my hands on.  I actually had a larger Penderecki collection than I did a Mahler collection.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 31, 2021, 08:47:15 AM
I'm not him but I used to have all of Penderecki's symphonies, concertos, vocal works and chamber works I could get my hands on.  I actually had a larger Penderecki collection than I did a Mahler collection.

Nice, Dave! So you got rid of all your physical collection or just the Penderecki?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on August 31, 2021, 12:13:20 PM
Thanks, Maestro. Do you have a large Penderecki collection?

14 recordings from the Naxos series. I think the only ones I'm missing are the Horn Concerto disc, A Sea of Dreams... and Sinfoniettas and so on.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 31, 2021, 12:25:07 PM
14 recordings from the Naxos series. I think the only ones I'm missing are the Horn Concerto disc, A Sea of Dreams... and Sinfoniettas and so on.

Cool. You should check out that Dux series. It’s outstanding. Also, A Sea of Dreams Did Breathe on Me... is exquisite. Also, do check out Symphony No. 6, “Chinese Songs”.

Speaking of the Horn Concerto, if you can find this recording (it might be OOP) for a good price, then jump on it:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Vjrs%2BPPCL.jpg)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DavidW on August 31, 2021, 02:12:56 PM
Nice, Dave! So you got rid of all your physical collection or just the Penderecki?

The former.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 31, 2021, 02:14:17 PM
The former.

Ah, well I hate hearing about this, but I do understand in terms of saving space.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DavidW on August 31, 2021, 02:26:49 PM
Ah, well I hate hearing about this, but I do understand in terms of saving space.

Funny enough I'm now buying a house so I now actually have room! :D  I'm thinking about making one of the rooms a dedicated music room.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 31, 2021, 02:29:11 PM
Funny enough I'm now buying a house so I now actually have room! :D  I'm thinking about making one of the rooms a dedicated music room.

Nice! That sounds like a good idea. Maybe you can buy some framed photographs of your favorite composers and hang them on the walls. 8) I hope you’re not thinking of a buying a physical collection again. ;)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on September 01, 2021, 03:05:50 AM
I do also have Spotify premium so I did listen to A Sea of Dreams the other day, and I really enjoyed it. Shame I can't find the Dux recording of Symphony No. 8 on there, despite plenty of non-symphony recordings of that series being available.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 01, 2021, 06:20:35 AM
I do also have Spotify premium so I did listen to A Sea of Dreams the other day, and I really enjoyed it. Shame I can't find the Dux recording of Symphony No. 8 on there, despite plenty of non-symphony recordings of that series being available.

Very nice. Have you heard Symphony No. 6, “Chinese Songs” yet?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on September 01, 2021, 07:05:47 AM
I think I might be working my way through the symphonies in numerical order so I'll listen to No. 6 when I get to it. Listened to No. 2 today and loved it, as usual.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 01, 2021, 07:07:08 AM
I think I might be working my way through the symphonies in numerical order so I'll listen to No. 6 when I get to it. Listened to No. 2 today and loved it, as usual.

Ah, sounds like a good plan to me. Yeah, the Christmas Symphony is an awesome work.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on September 02, 2021, 05:26:32 AM
After completing Nos. 3-5 in a burst early this morning, I've now arrived at No. 6 "Chinese Poems". Reading a review of the recording mentioning the composer "hoping to complete a cycle of nine symphonies" and that being dashed by his passing in March 2020. Obviously we have no record of him mentioning the following but in my mind it would be quite easy to consider A Sea of Dreams Did Breathe On Me as his 9th Symphony. It follows a very similar formula to No.8, a song cycle for soloists, chorus and orchestra, with the extra note that the songs of Sea of Dreams are grouped into three large (symphonic) parts.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DavidW on September 02, 2021, 05:29:49 AM
I didn't realize that he passed away.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 02, 2021, 05:42:09 AM
After completing Nos. 3-5 in a burst early this morning, I've now arrived at No. 6 "Chinese Poems". Reading a review of the recording mentioning the composer "hoping to complete a cycle of nine symphonies" and that being dashed by his passing in March 2020. Obviously we have no record of him mentioning the following but in my mind it would be quite easy to consider A Sea of Dreams Did Breathe On Me as his 9th Symphony. It follows a very similar formula to No.8, a song cycle for soloists, chorus and orchestra, with the extra note that the songs of Sea of Dreams are grouped into three large (symphonic) parts.

The curse of the 9th! It seems to plague so many composers, but this is interesting to read about Penderecki wanting to complete nine symphonies. I always just assumed that the 8th was it. That’s a good point about A Sea of Dreams Did Breathe on Me. This could very well be his 9th symphony. The 6th is a song-symphony and the 7th and 8th are choral symphonies. The reason I believe the 8th is a choral symphony and not a song-symphony is because the use of chorus throughout. I also believe that Penderecki himself called this particular symphony a choral symphony. I listened to the 8th for the first-time last night in the Penderecki-led performance on Dux and thoroughly enjoyed it. I enjoyed it so much that I’m planning on listening to the Wit performance tonight. I’ve heard the 6th once, but it was hugely enjoyable and downright gorgeous. It seems that this composer’s long illness softened his approach in the end and he started to incorporate more lyricism into the music. Anyway, I hope you’ve enjoyed your journey so far.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 02, 2021, 06:25:32 AM
I didn't realize that he passed away.

Yeah, we lost him March of last year. :(
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on September 02, 2021, 06:55:28 AM
I'll have to make do with the Wit performance of Symphony No. 8 for now. Penderecki's own recording is the complete version, with more poems added. I think the Wit recording was the complete version at the time but it's since been superseded.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: kyjo on September 02, 2021, 06:20:43 PM
A follow-up to my previous message: not all of Penderecki’s music is ‘doom and gloom’. Give a listen to the Sinfoniettas, the Adagietto from Paradise Lost, A sea of dreams did breathe on me..., the Horn Concerto, Three Pieces in the Old Style, Symphony No. 6 et. al. I also want to say I think Kyle is forgetting about the bleak, withdrawn styles that Schnittke and Pettersson adapted in their later years. A prime example are Schnittke’s last symphonies --- these are desolate, bleak works shrouded in shadow with the bold exception of the last movement of his 8th symphony where it sounds like some kind of ascension into the heavens. Also, Pettersson’s style became more and more bleak and anguished as time wore on, especially after the middle trilogy of symphonies: the 6th, 7th and 8th. All three of these composers wrote dark, disturbed music, but I’d never call it depressing, because I don’t hear the music that way. Another quick note and what do we make of Shostakovich’s later style? How about Weinberg’s? These composers don’t exactly bask in the sunshine either. :)

I think Kyle will begin to enjoy Penderecki as he gains more listening experience, because I truly believe that if I can have a breakthrough with this composer, then anything is possible!

Thanks for this and your previous post, John. I'll give some of these works a try at some point in the near future, but I may need some prodding! ;) Like you, I've also been dealing with some bouts of depression recently, but more often than not I cope with it by listening to music that is optimistic and hopeful (at least in the end!) rather than dark and pessimistic. Everyone's different! :)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 02, 2021, 06:41:19 PM
I'll have to make do with the Wit performance for now. Penderecki's own recording is the complete version, with more poems added. I think the Wit recording was the complete version at the time but it's since been superseded.

Interesting. I had no idea that Wit’s performance isn’t the complete version and that Penderecki had revised the work. Well, this kind of makes both performances special I think. 8)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 02, 2021, 06:50:48 PM
Thanks for this and your previous post, John. I'll give some of these works a try at some point in the near future, but I may need some prodding! ;) Like you, I've also been dealing with some bouts of depression recently, but more often than not I cope with it by listening to music that is optimistic and hopeful (at least in the end!) rather than dark and pessimistic. Everyone's different! :)

You’re welcome, Kyle. I also think you’ll enjoy his String Quartet No. 3, “Leaves of an unwritten diary”. The way the work develops into a long lament of sorts about halfway through and sustains this mood makes my heart melt a bit I must say. For me, and this is just my own perspective, but writing music that is jovial or uplifting is some of the most difficult to pull off, because I’m kind of a pessimistic person in several ways, but I do realize that it’s important to keep a good outlook in life and not get bogged down by all the negativity that can happen, but I still love dark-sounding music. I just don’t let anything get me down, but I guess what I’m trying to say is I appreciate where these composers are coming from musically when they write this kind of music.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 07, 2021, 10:21:09 AM
An interesting guide to some key Penderecki works:

https://www.classical-music.com/features/articles/best-works-krzysztof-penderecki/ (https://www.classical-music.com/features/articles/best-works-krzysztof-penderecki/)

To be honest, I think the list is short and doesn’t really give much of an overview of his work. I suppose it might be a fine list for someone just getting into his music and don’t know exactly what to listen to first.

I’d add the following six works to this list: Symphony No. 2, “Christmas Symphony”, String Quartet No. 3, “Leaves of an unwritten diary”, Polish Requiem, Violin Sonata No. 2, Sextet and Kosmogonia.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 07, 2021, 11:27:44 AM
An interesting guide to some key Penderecki works:

https://www.classical-music.com/features/articles/best-works-krzysztof-penderecki/ (https://www.classical-music.com/features/articles/best-works-krzysztof-penderecki/)

To be honest, I think the list is short and doesn’t really give much of an overview of his work. I suppose it might be a fine list for someone just getting into his music and don’t know exactly what to listen to first.

I’d add the following six works to this list: Symphony No. 2, “Christmas Symphony”, String Quartet No. 3, “Leaves of an unwritten diary”, Polish Requiem, Violin Sonata No. 2, Sextet and Kosmogonia.

Definitely have to add Polymorphia to that list. Perhaps the most frightening piece of music I have ever heard.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 07, 2021, 11:55:24 AM
Definitely have to add Polymorphia to that list. Perhaps the most frightening piece of music I have ever heard.

Ah yes! Love that piece, too.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 14, 2021, 05:46:46 AM
What are people's top five Penderecki works? John (MI)? 😁
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 14, 2021, 06:36:24 AM
What are people's top five Penderecki works? John (MI)? 😁

An excellent question, Ray. I’ll have to go with the following for today (in no particular order):

Cello Concerto No. 2
Horn Concerto, “Winterreise”
St. Luke Passion
Kosmogonia
String Quartet No. 3, “Leaves from an unwritten diary”
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 14, 2021, 07:25:06 AM
An excellent question, Ray. I’ll have to go with the following for today (in no particular order):

Cello Concerto No. 2
Horn Concerto, “Winterreise”
St. Luke Passion
Kosmogonia
String Quartet No. 3, “Leaves from an unwritten diary”


Hmmm, out of those, I think I have only heard the St. Luke Passion.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: foxandpeng on September 14, 2021, 08:11:29 AM
An interesting guide to some key Penderecki works:

https://www.classical-music.com/features/articles/best-works-krzysztof-penderecki/ (https://www.classical-music.com/features/articles/best-works-krzysztof-penderecki/)

To be honest, I think the list is short and doesn’t really give much of an overview of his work. I suppose it might be a fine list for someone just getting into his music and don’t know exactly what to listen to first.

I’d add the following six works to this list: Symphony No. 2, “Christmas Symphony”, String Quartet No. 3, “Leaves of an unwritten diary”, Polish Requiem, Violin Sonata No. 2, Sextet and Kosmogonia.

This is incredibly helpful. I need to elevate Penderecki to near the top of my 'to do' list. I've been tracking your listening with real interest, and it seems his music may well resonate strongly with me, from what I've read. Yet another worthy project ahead. I've lost some traction with the Holmboe quartets recently, due to necessary distraction with some other fine works, but this encourages rather than discourages me.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 14, 2021, 09:43:29 AM
Hmmm, out of those, I think I have only heard the St. Luke Passion.

Yeah, well, over the past month or so I’ve heard A LOT of Penderecki, but honestly, I feel I’m only getting started as there are many works that I haven’t even heard yet as well.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 14, 2021, 09:44:44 AM
This is incredibly helpful. I need to elevate Penderecki to near the top of my 'to do' list. I've been tracking your listening with real interest, and it seems his music may well resonate strongly with me, from what I've read. Yet another worthy project ahead. I've lost some traction with the Holmboe quartets recently, due to necessary distraction with some other fine works, but this encourages rather than discourages me.

He’s definitely worth exploring, especially if you’re coming from a diet of symphonists like Kancheli or Pettersson. There’s much to latch onto in his music and I feel that the starkness of his music gives it a special sound-world that is completely his own.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 14, 2021, 09:57:26 AM
Yeah, well, over the past month or so I’ve heard A LOT of Penderecki, but honestly, I feel I’m only getting started as there are many works that I haven’t even heard yet as well.

I need to add to my collection a lot of pieces. First, I am going to start going through a relisten of what I have.  :)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 14, 2021, 10:01:11 AM
I need to add to my collection a lot of pieces. First, I am going to start going through a relisten of what I have.  :)

Always a sensible thing to do for sure. It certainly beats my own method, which is buy everything and then give it away later. ;) :P
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 14, 2021, 10:22:16 AM
Always a sensible thing to do for sure. It certainly beats my own method, which is buy everything and then give it away later. ;) :P

Well, I have already added 7 discs on my Amazon wish list.  :D
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 14, 2021, 10:54:44 AM
An excellent question, Ray. I’ll have to go with the following for today (in no particular order):

Cello Concerto No. 2
Horn Concerto, “Winterreise”
St. Luke Passion
Kosmogonia
String Quartet No. 3, “Leaves from an unwritten diary”


I don't think I can come up with a firm top five at the moment until I have relistened to all I have and then listen to many works I have not yet heard, but out of what I have heard:

Utrenja
The Devils of Loudun
Symphony No. 3
String Quartet No. 1
Polymorphia


We'll see how much this changes with this new exploration.  :)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 14, 2021, 11:02:54 AM
Well, I have already added 7 discs on my Amazon wish list.  :D

Amongst the wishlist:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51CGC-Lr9pL._SS135_.jpg)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51yn8KKeg3L._SS135_.jpg)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61lXYViGU1L._SS135_.jpg)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61lXYViGU1L._SS135_.jpg)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51rU7cwvc8L._SS135_.jpg)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51wb2QGdB6L._SS135_.jpg)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41CfLHx7P3L._SS135_.jpg)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 14, 2021, 02:11:20 PM
Well, I have already added 7 discs on my Amazon wish list.  :D

 8) Excellent!

Amongst the wishlist:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51CGC-Lr9pL._SS135_.jpg)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51yn8KKeg3L._SS135_.jpg)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61lXYViGU1L._SS135_.jpg)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51rU7cwvc8L._SS135_.jpg)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51wb2QGdB6L._SS135_.jpg)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41CfLHx7P3L._SS135_.jpg)

All of these are excellent recordings. You’ll be surprised by Symphony No. 6, “Chinese Songs”. Penderecki at his most lyrical. I also highly recommend checking out A Dream Did Breathe On Me, which is a glorious orchestral song cycle. This work is also lyrical in mood.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DavidW on September 14, 2021, 02:40:09 PM
What are people's top five Penderecki works? John (MI)? 😁

That looks like you were only directing the question at MI but I'll answer anyway:

Symphony #3, 1, 5
Clarinet Quartet
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 14, 2021, 03:01:09 PM
That looks like you were only directing the question at MI but I'll answer anyway:

Symphony #3, 1, 5
Clarinet Quartet

Oh, of course anyone can answer. Thanks David. I'll listen to Symphony 1 and 5 tomorrow, along with the Clarinet Quartet. I listened to the marvelous 3rd symphony today.  :)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 14, 2021, 03:42:47 PM
Oh, of course anyone can answer. Thanks David. I'll listen to Symphony 1 and 5 tomorrow, along with the Clarinet Quartet. I listened to the marvelous 3rd symphony today.  :)

I love the last three symphonies, but I rank the 5th quite highly along with Symphony No. 2, “Christmas Symphony”.

Some information on Symphony No. 5, “Korean”:

Called "Korean", even though the name does not appear on the score, Krzysztof Penderecki's Symphony No. 5 was commissioned by the International Cultural Society of Korea for the 50th anniversary of liberation of Korea from the Japanese occupation, and was premiered by the Korean Radio Symphony Orchestra under the composer on 14th August 1992.

Although a single-movement work, Symphony No. 5 has a highly varied structure, whose highlight - and a reference to the occasion for which it was composed - is the incorporation of an old Korean patriotic song, banned under the Japanese occupation. A symbol of Korean independence, the tune uses just three sounds: b, f and c.

This is how Tadeusz Zieliński comments on Symphony No. 5 in a latest study of Penderecki's instrumental music:

"Despite the rough surface, 'Symphony No. 5' is a monumental romantic drama rich in deep emotions, great emotional contrasts, exuberant pathos as well as scherzo-like playfulness, various tangled motifs, rich and varied colours. Somewhere there lurk the spirits of Bruckner, Mahler, Strauss and Shostakovich behind the dramatic pulse of this (and of the earlier) symphonies. One may therefore say that this music is turned towards both history and modernity, what with its bold sound language that is radically remote from the tradition.”

And this is how Penderecki himself speaks about his symphonic music:

"If someone had the idea of calling my symphonic works 'cathedrals of uselessness', they should know that I gave up the world-saving temptation long ago. I am keen, however, to save the things which are the most important to me in the artistic and human dimensions."

[Article taken from Culture.pl]
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on September 15, 2021, 02:50:10 AM
What are people's top five Penderecki works? John (MI)? 😁

Piano Concerto "Resurrection"
Symphony No. 7 "Seven Gates of Jerusalem"
Symphony No. 2
Credo
Concerto Grosso No. 1
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 15, 2021, 02:52:04 AM
Piano Concerto "Resurrection"
Symphony No. 7 "Seven Gates of Jerusalem"
Symphony No. 2
Credo
Concerto Grosso No. 1

Have not heard the Piano Concerto but it is on my wish list.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DavidW on September 15, 2021, 03:38:08 AM
Piano Concerto "Resurrection"
Symphony No. 7 "Seven Gates of Jerusalem"
Symphony No. 2
Credo
Concerto Grosso No. 1

I think that shows a personal our tastes our... those are my least favorite works of Penderecki! :laugh:
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 15, 2021, 03:43:13 AM
I think that shows a personal our tastes our... those are my least favorite works of Penderecki! :laugh:

What I generally find prevalent in fans of Penderecki are the two camps:

Fans of his early avant-garde period and fans of his later period, and never the two shall meet.  ;D

Not everyone, obviously, but in general.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DavidW on September 15, 2021, 04:25:30 AM
What I generally find prevalent in fans of Penderecki are the two camps:

Fans of his early avant-garde period and fans of his later period, and never the two shall meet.  ;D

Not everyone, obviously, but in general.

Actually I like both periods.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on September 15, 2021, 04:48:03 AM
Me too, but when thinking quickly about it those are the first 5 works that came to my mind. No one really has a genuine ranking of them; none of this really matters or should define who we are as people.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 15, 2021, 04:53:33 AM
Actually I like both periods.

I do as well.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 15, 2021, 05:21:42 AM
Piano Concerto "Resurrection"
Symphony No. 7 "Seven Gates of Jerusalem"
Symphony No. 2
Credo
Concerto Grosso No. 1

All fine works, indeed. I need to listen to the Piano Concerto, “Resurrection” again, though.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 15, 2021, 05:27:28 AM
What I generally find prevalent in fans of Penderecki are the two camps:

Fans of his early avant-garde period and fans of his later period, and never the two shall meet.  ;D

Not everyone, obviously, but in general.

I used to be in the “early works only” camp, but then I heard the Christmas Symphony and realized how foolish it was for me to have a preference when, in fact, there are great pieces from all periods of his oeuvre.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 15, 2021, 05:30:28 AM
That looks like you were only directing the question at MI but I'll answer anyway:

Clarinet Quartet

Just relistened to this again, David.  It is magnificent, isn't it?  :)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 15, 2021, 05:38:09 AM
Just relistened to this again, David.  It is magnificent, isn't it?  :)

The Sextet and Violin Sonatas are also top-notch. Of course, I love the SQs, too.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 15, 2021, 05:40:18 AM
The problem is if someone wants to buy a recording of it all there is is that Philips recording, which is OOP, rare and if you do find one, incredibly expensive. I hope Decca reissues it, but I’m not going to hold my breath. ;)

That, or this option of a multi DVD opera set.

The Devils of Loudun

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk3NjcyMC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjEyODUxNTM5NTZ9)

This is the one that is available currently on YouTube, that Bruce kindly shared the link to earlier this year.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 15, 2021, 05:43:28 AM
The Sextet and Violin Sonatas are also top-notch. Of course, I love the SQs, too.

Listening to the Sextet now, John.

As for the violin sonatas, I've just ordered them (Naxos set).  Haven't heard these before.  I'm also only familiar with the 1st string quartet (famously playing at the opening credits of The Exorcist).
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 15, 2021, 05:49:54 AM
That, or this option of a multi DVD opera set.

The Devils of Loudun

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk3NjcyMC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjEyODUxNTM5NTZ9)

This is the one that is available currently on YouTube, that Bruce kindly shared the link to earlier this year.

I’d much rather listen to an opera than watch it --- as strange as that sounds.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 15, 2021, 05:50:27 AM
Listening to the Sextet now, John.

As for the violin sonatas, I've just ordered them (Naxos set).  Haven't heard these before.  I'm also only familiar with the 1st string quartet (famously playing at the opening credits of The Exorcist).

Very nice, indeed. 8)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 15, 2021, 05:55:55 AM
I’d much rather listen to an opera than watch it --- as strange as that sounds.

Oh yes, I do know that about you, John.  :)

I'm kind of like that with ballet music.  8)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DavidW on September 15, 2021, 06:00:33 AM
The Sextet and Violin Sonatas are also top-notch. Of course, I love the SQs, too.

His chamber works are hidden gems.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DavidW on September 15, 2021, 06:02:06 AM
I’d much rather listen to an opera than watch it --- as strange as that sounds.

After I've initially watched it and know it I then prefer to just listen.  But I don't like it if I can't have that initial watch.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 15, 2021, 06:07:40 AM
Oh yes, I do know that about you, John.  :)

I'm kind of like that with ballet music.  8)

Nice Penderecki avatar, Ray. 8)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 15, 2021, 06:08:09 AM
His chamber works are hidden gems.

Yeah, it does seem like they don’t get enough attention.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 15, 2021, 06:09:17 AM
Nice Penderecki avatar, Ray. 8)

Thanks.   :) I used this avatar before, but it is probably like 8+ years ago.  ;D
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 15, 2021, 06:09:18 AM
After I've initially watched it and know it I then prefer to just listen.  But I don't like it if I can't have that initial watch.

Well, opera in general is on the bottom of my list when it comes to my own preferences, but I do love several of them.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 15, 2021, 06:10:27 AM
I know 100% for a fact that Karl Henning would love his Prelude for Solo Clarinet (1959) and the Clarinet Quartet (1993)  :)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 15, 2021, 06:12:35 AM
I know 100% for a fact that Karl Henning would love his Prelude for Solo Clarinet (1959) and the Clarinet Quartet (1993)  :)

Karl does like the Sextet as he mentioned this before, but I’m not sure how he feels about Penderecki’s other works.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 15, 2021, 06:43:16 AM
Just listened to Kanon for Tape and Orchestra (1962).  Another one of Penderecki's eerie, frightening pieces from his avant-garde period!  :o  Used also in great effect in The Exorcist and The Shining films.

YouTube - Orchestra Sinfonica Nazionale della Radio Polacca - conducted by the composer

*Not to be listened to just before bedtime.  :D
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 15, 2021, 06:55:45 AM
Just listened to Kanon for Tape and Orchestra (1962).  Another one of Penderecki's eerie, frightening pieces from his avant-garde period!  :o  Used also in great effect in The Exorcist and The Shining films.

YouTube - Orchestra Sinfonica Nazionale della Radio Polacca - conducted by the composer

*Not to be listened to just before bedtime.  :D

I listened to this piece for the first-time a few nights ago and thought there was something wrong with my headphones. :D But then I realized that tape part was divided up, which was pretty freaking cool sounding.

The performance I listened to came from this 2-CD set, which of course is way OOP at this juncture:

(https://i.scdn.co/image/ab67616d0000b273568192914c57670fdb43c317)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 15, 2021, 07:01:28 AM
I listened to this piece for the first-time a few nights ago and thought there was something wrong with my headphones. :D But then I realized that tape part was divided up, which was pretty freaking cool sounding.

The performance I listened to came from this 2-CD set, which of course is way OOP at this juncture:

(https://i.scdn.co/image/ab67616d0000b273568192914c57670fdb43c317)

Yeah, I was looking for that disc, but couldn't find it in CD form (available as a download though on Presto).  Was probably that exact performance that was on YouTube.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 15, 2021, 07:17:06 AM
Yeah, I was looking for that disc, but couldn't find it in CD form (available as a download though on Presto).  Was probably that exact performance that was on YouTube.

I also bought this set, which is essential listening, too:

(https://img.discogs.com/os3kYhMjRjWR2VqKjCiURzrV6AM=/fit-in/600x594/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-1280308-1464975195-1562.jpeg.jpg)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 15, 2021, 07:26:19 AM
Question:  Are there any recordings of the Polish Requiem that includes the Chaconne as part of the whole performance?  It should be sandwiched in between the Sanctus and Agnus Dei.

Of note, the Chaconne was written in 2005 (in memory of the late Pope John Paul II), while the Polish Requiem was written in 1984.  The Chaconne is supposed to be an addendum to the Polish Requiem, but I have only seen it performed separately.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 15, 2021, 07:30:01 AM
I also bought this set, which is essential listening, too:

(https://img.discogs.com/os3kYhMjRjWR2VqKjCiURzrV6AM=/fit-in/600x594/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-1280308-1464975195-1562.jpeg.jpg)

Would this be the same John, just a reissue of the above?

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODAwNDM3OS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NjEwODE0NDl9)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DavidW on September 15, 2021, 07:30:55 AM
Well, opera in general is on the bottom of my list when it comes to my own preferences, but I do love several of them.

Same on both fronts.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 15, 2021, 07:32:51 AM
Question:  Are there any recordings of the Polish Requiem that includes the Chaconne as part of the whole performance?  It should be sandwiched in between the Sanctus and Agnus Dei.

Of note, the Chaconne was written in 2005 (in memory of the late Pope John Paul II), while the Polish Requiem was written in 1984.  The Chaconne is supposed to be an addendum to the Polish Requiem, but I have only seen it performed separately.

Not to my knowledge, Ray. In fact, here’s the premiere of the revised work:

Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 15, 2021, 07:34:23 AM
Would this be the same John, just a reissue of the above?

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODAwNDM3OS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NjEwODE0NDl9)

Yep, they’re both the same. 8) I actually own the older issue and this new one with the Warner logo. :D I gave my dad the new reissue on Warner.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 15, 2021, 07:53:09 AM
Not to my knowledge, Ray. In fact, here’s the premiere of the revised work:

Right, I don't see the Chaconne included there.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 15, 2021, 07:53:41 AM
Yep, they’re both the same. 8) I actually own the older issue and this new one with the Warner logo. :D I gave my dad the new reissue on Warner.

Thanks, I've added the Warner reissue to my basket.  8)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 15, 2021, 07:54:56 AM
Right, I don't see the Chaconne included there.  Thanks!

You’re welcome.

Thanks, I've added the Warner reissue to my basket.  8)

A fine choice, indeed. 8)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: greg on September 15, 2021, 09:45:51 AM
What I generally find prevalent in fans of Penderecki are the two camps:

Fans of his early avant-garde period and fans of his later period, and never the two shall meet.  ;D

Not everyone, obviously, but in general.
I like both but definitely have a preference for the early avant-garde stuff.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on September 15, 2021, 11:34:44 AM
If you have Spotify you can programme it to queue up the Chaconne (on the Naxos disc with Te Deum) in between the Sanctus and Agnus Dei. It's very effective.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 15, 2021, 12:29:37 PM
If you have Spotify you can programme it to queue up the Chaconne (on the Naxos disc with Te Deum) in between the Sanctus and Agnus Dei. It's very effective.

I don't have Spotify, unfortunately. I am a CD Cro Magnon type of guy :D But yes, I see how that would work well in that situation.

I do have that Naxos disc with the Chaconne, a phenomenonal one at that, coupled with the Te Deum, Daniel's Hymne and Polymorphia. And do have the Wit performance on another disc for the Polish Requiem.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Spotted Horses on September 15, 2021, 05:45:43 PM
I don't have Spotify, unfortunately. I am a CD Cro Magnon type of guy :D But yes, I see how that would work well in that situation.

I do have that Naxos disc with the Chaconne, a phenomenonal one at that, coupled with the Te Deum, Daniel's Hymne and Polymorphia. And do have the Wit performance on another disc for the Polish Requiem.

You can always rip the CDs to lossless files and stream the tracks from your computer, or burn the tracks to a CDR in whatever order you'd like to listen to play in your conventional CD player.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on September 15, 2021, 10:11:40 PM
I don't have Spotify, unfortunately. I am a CD Cro Magnon type of guy :D But yes, I see how that would work well in that situation.

I do have that Naxos disc with the Chaconne, a phenomenonal one at that, coupled with the Te Deum, Daniel's Hymne and Polymorphia. And do have the Wit performance on another disc for the Polish Requiem.

Yep, same. It's an interesting setup as the string orchestra of the Chaconne fades and then the choir comes in in the same key for the acapella Agnus Dei.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 16, 2021, 07:06:35 AM
Here is my order from yesterday, essentially, doubling my Penderecki library.   :laugh:  Most (not all) will be brand new music for me, other than some of the music that has appeared on Hollywood films (The Awakening of Jacob, as an example).

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODAwNDM3OS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NjEwODE0NDl9)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODkxNTQ1OS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2MjEwMDE1MjZ9)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODc2NzcwNy4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1ODQ3MTU1NzR9)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODAwNjYxNy4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NTd9)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODAwMTQ0My4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1ODY4ODI4MDl9)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODA2MTAzOC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NzExNjE2MzJ9)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODA3NzYyMC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NjQ4MzU5OTN9)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODAxOTk1NC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NTd9)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzkyODY4My4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NTd9)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODAwNDg4NS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NzExMDMwMjJ9)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODAyODA2Ny4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2MDAwODg2NTd9)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Spotted Horses on September 16, 2021, 09:17:24 AM
Here is my order from yesterday, essentially, doubling my Penderecki library.   :laugh:  Most (not all) will be brand new music for me, other than some of the music that has appeared on Hollywood films (The Awakening of Jacob, as an example).

I'm looking back at my listening notes, and I seem to like Pederecki more than I thought. :)  Recently listened to the viola and cello concertos and found them engaging.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 16, 2021, 10:13:56 AM
I'm looking back at my listening notes, and I seem to like Pederecki more than I thought. :)  Recently listened to the viola and cello concertos and found them engaging.

Am not familiar with the viola concerto or the cello concerto # 2, but that will soon be resolved.  :)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 16, 2021, 07:07:18 PM
Here is my order from yesterday, essentially, doubling my Penderecki library.   :laugh:  Most (not all) will be brand new music for me, other than some of the music that has appeared on Hollywood films (The Awakening of Jacob, as an example).

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODAwNDM3OS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NjEwODE0NDl9)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODkxNTQ1OS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2MjEwMDE1MjZ9)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODc2NzcwNy4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1ODQ3MTU1NzR9)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODAwNjYxNy4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NTd9)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODAwMTQ0My4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1ODY4ODI4MDl9)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODA2MTAzOC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NzExNjE2MzJ9)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODA3NzYyMC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NjQ4MzU5OTN9)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODAxOTk1NC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NTd9)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzkyODY4My4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NTd9)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODAwNDg4NS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NzExMDMwMjJ9)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODAyODA2Ny4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2MDAwODg2NTd9)

Sweet! A great haul, Ray. 8)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: hvbias on September 17, 2021, 01:09:06 PM
Here is my order from yesterday, essentially, doubling my Penderecki library.   :laugh:  Most (not all) will be brand new music for me, other than some of the music that has appeared on Hollywood films (The Awakening of Jacob, as an example).


(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODkxNTQ1OS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2MjEwMDE1MjZ9)


This was part of my best of when it came out. There is apparently a ton I don't have, a Naxos box set would be quite welcome at this point!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 17, 2021, 02:10:13 PM
This was part of my best of when it came out. There is apparently a ton I don't have, a Naxos box set would be quite welcome at this point!

I am sure at some point in time, it will happen!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 17, 2021, 06:44:14 PM
This was part of my best of when it came out. There is apparently a ton I don't have, a Naxos box set would be quite welcome at this point!

I do believe it will happen, but probably not high on Naxos’ priority list at the moment. Penderecki passed away last year, so this rules out any anniversaries, but if they put a box set out in 2033 it will be a special occasion as it would mark the composer’s 100th birthday.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on September 18, 2021, 09:27:27 PM
There are two boxes of assorted Naxos Penderecki discs out there. (Amazon links below.)

This one with choral works (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Masterworks-20th-Century-Box-Choral/dp/B002JP9HTO/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=penderecki+naxos+box&qid=1632032752&qsid=258-4691245-2908408&sr=8-1&sres=B002JP9HTO%2CB008DWG0CY%2CB00000J8K6%2CB08H8VF9JP%2CB00008IHVW%2CB000675OFS%2CB006O51DC4%2CB0723441JW%2CB013XU2P60%2CB092PJ99TH%2CB07PH9Z1QB%2CB07BDMNJMV)

This one with symphonies (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Symphonies-other-Orchestral-Works/dp/B008DWG0CY/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=penderecki+naxos+box&qid=1632032752&qsid=258-4691245-2908408&sr=8-2&sres=B002JP9HTO%2CB008DWG0CY%2CB00000J8K6%2CB08H8VF9JP%2CB00008IHVW%2CB000675OFS%2CB006O51DC4%2CB0723441JW%2CB013XU2P60%2CB092PJ99TH%2CB07PH9Z1QB%2CB07BDMNJMV)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 19, 2021, 02:40:50 AM
There are two boxes of assorted Naxos Penderecki discs out there. (Amazon links below.)

This one with choral works (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Masterworks-20th-Century-Box-Choral/dp/B002JP9HTO/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=penderecki+naxos+box&qid=1632032752&qsid=258-4691245-2908408&sr=8-1&sres=B002JP9HTO%2CB008DWG0CY%2CB00000J8K6%2CB08H8VF9JP%2CB00008IHVW%2CB000675OFS%2CB006O51DC4%2CB0723441JW%2CB013XU2P60%2CB092PJ99TH%2CB07PH9Z1QB%2CB07BDMNJMV)

This one with symphonies (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Symphonies-other-Orchestral-Works/dp/B008DWG0CY/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=penderecki+naxos+box&qid=1632032752&qsid=258-4691245-2908408&sr=8-2&sres=B002JP9HTO%2CB008DWG0CY%2CB00000J8K6%2CB08H8VF9JP%2CB00008IHVW%2CB000675OFS%2CB006O51DC4%2CB0723441JW%2CB013XU2P60%2CB092PJ99TH%2CB07PH9Z1QB%2CB07BDMNJMV)

True, there are those two. I think Antoni Wit is likely still planning further recordings, so until he is done, we'll have to wait for a "complete" Naxos Penderecki box.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DavidW on September 19, 2021, 04:50:13 AM
There are two boxes of assorted Naxos Penderecki discs out there. (Amazon links below.)

This one with choral works (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Masterworks-20th-Century-Box-Choral/dp/B002JP9HTO/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=penderecki+naxos+box&qid=1632032752&qsid=258-4691245-2908408&sr=8-1&sres=B002JP9HTO%2CB008DWG0CY%2CB00000J8K6%2CB08H8VF9JP%2CB00008IHVW%2CB000675OFS%2CB006O51DC4%2CB0723441JW%2CB013XU2P60%2CB092PJ99TH%2CB07PH9Z1QB%2CB07BDMNJMV)

This one with symphonies (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Symphonies-other-Orchestral-Works/dp/B008DWG0CY/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=penderecki+naxos+box&qid=1632032752&qsid=258-4691245-2908408&sr=8-2&sres=B002JP9HTO%2CB008DWG0CY%2CB00000J8K6%2CB08H8VF9JP%2CB00008IHVW%2CB000675OFS%2CB006O51DC4%2CB0723441JW%2CB013XU2P60%2CB092PJ99TH%2CB07PH9Z1QB%2CB07BDMNJMV)

Those are not boxes though!  They are just collecting the individual jewel cases together.  They don't save space.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DavidW on September 19, 2021, 04:51:10 AM
I've been planning on listening to the string quartets all week.  I finally have the time today.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: relm1 on September 19, 2021, 04:52:09 AM
There are two boxes of assorted Naxos Penderecki discs out there. (Amazon links below.)

This one with choral works (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Masterworks-20th-Century-Box-Choral/dp/B002JP9HTO/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=penderecki+naxos+box&qid=1632032752&qsid=258-4691245-2908408&sr=8-1&sres=B002JP9HTO%2CB008DWG0CY%2CB00000J8K6%2CB08H8VF9JP%2CB00008IHVW%2CB000675OFS%2CB006O51DC4%2CB0723441JW%2CB013XU2P60%2CB092PJ99TH%2CB07PH9Z1QB%2CB07BDMNJMV)

This one with symphonies (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Symphonies-other-Orchestral-Works/dp/B008DWG0CY/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=penderecki+naxos+box&qid=1632032752&qsid=258-4691245-2908408&sr=8-2&sres=B002JP9HTO%2CB008DWG0CY%2CB00000J8K6%2CB08H8VF9JP%2CB00008IHVW%2CB000675OFS%2CB006O51DC4%2CB0723441JW%2CB013XU2P60%2CB092PJ99TH%2CB07PH9Z1QB%2CB07BDMNJMV)

It doesn't have the 6th Symphony.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on September 19, 2021, 05:07:44 AM
No because the 6th wasn't created until 2018. Wit hasn't recorded it yet. I had no need to get the sets as I purchased the recordings individually over the years.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 19, 2021, 05:29:50 AM
True, there are those two. I think Antoni Wit is likely still planning further recordings, so until he is done, we'll have to wait for a "complete" Naxos Penderecki box.

Hopefully, Wit will record Symphony No. 6, “Chinese Songs”. I hope it happens sooner rather than later as Wit is in his late 70s.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 19, 2021, 05:37:54 AM
There are two boxes of assorted Naxos Penderecki discs out there. (Amazon links below.)

This one with choral works (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Masterworks-20th-Century-Box-Choral/dp/B002JP9HTO/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=penderecki+naxos+box&qid=1632032752&qsid=258-4691245-2908408&sr=8-1&sres=B002JP9HTO%2CB008DWG0CY%2CB00000J8K6%2CB08H8VF9JP%2CB00008IHVW%2CB000675OFS%2CB006O51DC4%2CB0723441JW%2CB013XU2P60%2CB092PJ99TH%2CB07PH9Z1QB%2CB07BDMNJMV)

This one with symphonies (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Symphonies-other-Orchestral-Works/dp/B008DWG0CY/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=penderecki+naxos+box&qid=1632032752&qsid=258-4691245-2908408&sr=8-2&sres=B002JP9HTO%2CB008DWG0CY%2CB00000J8K6%2CB08H8VF9JP%2CB00008IHVW%2CB000675OFS%2CB006O51DC4%2CB0723441JW%2CB013XU2P60%2CB092PJ99TH%2CB07PH9Z1QB%2CB07BDMNJMV)

I own both “sets” (if you want to actually call them this) but neither one of them contain all of Wit’s Penderecki recordings, so I had to buy the rest individually. Anyway, I was talking about a special box set design like their Debussy, Grieg, Lutoslawski et. al. box sets.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: vers la flamme on September 19, 2021, 10:33:02 AM
Hopefully, Wit will record Symphony No. 6, “Chinese Songs”. I hope it happens sooner rather than later as Wit is in his late 70s.

Pshh, the 70s for a conductor are like the 30s for any other professional  :laugh:
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DavidW on September 20, 2021, 04:24:38 AM
I listened to the Tippett Q recording of the string chamber works yesterday.  In particular I liked the string trio.  I've never heard the SQs and trio before.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 20, 2021, 06:10:24 AM
Pshh, the 70s for a conductor are like the 30s for any other professional  :laugh:

There is some truth in this for sure. ;)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 20, 2021, 06:12:09 AM
I listened to the Tippett Q recording of the string chamber works yesterday.  In particular I liked the string trio.  I've never heard the SQs and trio before.

Excellent! The 3rd SQ remains my favorite of all his chamber works right now, but I do like the Clarinet Quintet and Sextet a lot as well.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 21, 2021, 09:41:01 AM
Excellent! The 3rd SQ remains my favorite of all his chamber works right now, but I do like the Clarinet Quintet and Sextet a lot as well.

That's quite a recommendation, so I'll probably go ahead and buy this one (up to now the Sextet has been my favorite of his chamber works). In general, I think he was better at chamber than orchestral music. I wish he'd written more in that genre.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 21, 2021, 10:25:39 AM
True, there are those two. I think Antoni Wit is likely still planning further recordings, so until he is done, we'll have to wait for a "complete" Naxos Penderecki box.

Interesting.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 22, 2021, 02:54:02 AM
Interesting.

Well, this is merely speculation.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on September 22, 2021, 04:02:03 AM
Listening to the Sextet now, John.

As for the violin sonatas, I've just ordered them (Naxos set).  Haven't heard these before.  I'm also only familiar with the 1st string quartet (famously playing at the opening credits of The Exorcist).
Oh, interesting!  I didn't know that his music was used in that film.  I did find this...just a tiny snippet used there:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qpw-GbEpjR4

PD

p.s.  Any idea whose recording was used?  And how do you like it overall?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 22, 2021, 04:12:25 AM
Oh, interesting!  I didn't know that his music was used in that film.  I did find this...just a tiny snippet used there:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qpw-GbEpjR4

PD

p.s.  Any idea whose recording was used?  And how do you like it overall?

I don't know which recording it was. Obviously it would have to be 1973 or prior. Perhaps it was the LaSalle quartet since they recorded it in 1967.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DavidW on September 22, 2021, 04:18:50 AM
p.s.  Any idea whose recording was used? 

Slatkin

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070047/soundtrack/?ref_=tt_trv_snd (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070047/soundtrack/?ref_=tt_trv_snd)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on September 22, 2021, 04:30:40 AM
I don't know which recording it was. Obviously it would have to be 1973 or prior. Perhaps it was the LaSalle quartet since they recorded it in 1967.

Slatkin

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070047/soundtrack/?ref_=tt_trv_snd (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070047/soundtrack/?ref_=tt_trv_snd)
Oh, o.k.  Thanks.  I was thinking that they would have used an excerpt from a string quartet performing it.  Sorry to hear that the orchestra is no longer around too.

PD
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 22, 2021, 04:34:01 AM
Slatkin

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070047/soundtrack/?ref_=tt_trv_snd (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070047/soundtrack/?ref_=tt_trv_snd)

I don't see in there where it specifically mentions the performers or ensemble for the string quartet? Or I've overlooked it.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on September 22, 2021, 09:27:22 AM
I don't see in there where it specifically mentions the performers or ensemble for the string quartet? Or I've overlooked it.
I took it to mean that the necessary excerpt was recorded by members of the National Philharmonic Orchestra?  Or were they not providing accurate information on that website?  I couldn't find anything else.  Tempted to borrow the movie--both to watch the movie again and to check out the music...and the credits!  ;D

PD
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 22, 2021, 09:32:32 AM
I took it to mean that the necessary excerpt was recorded by members of the National Philharmonic Orchestra?  Or were they not providing accurate information on that website?  I couldn't find anything else.  Tempted to borrow the movie--both to watch the movie again and to check out the music...and the credits!  ;D

PD

I have the DVD. I don't believe the credits for the music are that descriptive or detailed. But I will double check when I have time.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on September 22, 2021, 09:41:33 AM
I have the DVD. I don't believe the credits for the music are that descriptive or detailed. But I will double check when I have time.
Ah!  I think that I've solved it!  That website (further down, scroll down) credits "Courtesy of Candide/Vox Productions"...more googling and finally found this:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/124883979915?hash=item1d13aa4e8b:g:zLUAAOSwyIZhLVuy

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/zLUAAOSwyIZhLVuy/s-l1600.jpg)  I see that the Kohon Quartet is listed there.

PD

p.s.  Looks like it came out in 1972.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 22, 2021, 09:52:28 AM
Ah!  I think that I've solved it!  That website (further down, scroll down) credits "Courtesy of Candide/Vox Productions"...more googling and finally found this:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/124883979915?hash=item1d13aa4e8b:g:zLUAAOSwyIZhLVuy

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/zLUAAOSwyIZhLVuy/s-l1600.jpg)  I see that the Kohon Quartet is listed there.

PD

p.s.  Looks like it came out in 1972.

Oh! I think you found it!  :) I checked the credits, and they only specified Candide/Vox.

Listening to sound samples, I definitely think it is the Kohon Quartet.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on September 22, 2021, 10:30:12 AM
Oh! I think you found it!  :) I checked the credits, and they only specified Candide/Vox.

Listening to sound samples, I definitely think it is the Kohon Quartet.
Pohjolas Daughter: happy and proud "sleuth"   :D

PD
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 22, 2021, 10:32:45 AM
Pohjolas Daughter: happy and proud "sleuth"   :D

PD

Great gumshoeing!  ;)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on September 22, 2021, 10:36:19 AM
Great gumshoeing!  ;)
Thanks there, err mac!  ;D

PD
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DavidW on September 22, 2021, 12:38:18 PM
Clever PD!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: hvbias on September 22, 2021, 01:14:40 PM
I have the DVD. I don't believe the credits for the music are that descriptive or detailed. But I will double check when I have time.

Random comment about The Exorcist, I think (think because my parents let us roam wild including let us watch horror and R-rated movies even as kids :laugh: ) the first time I saw this is when it got its theatrical re-release in 2000 or 2001. I got off a late night shift working at Sears, one of my friends worked at one of the movie theaters and I dropped by to hang out with him, seeing the skeletons of how a theater ran was something that was fascinating to me. I think The Exorcist was just on its final weeks of being shown as there were only a handful of people in the theater. To this day this remains one of the more disturbing things I've seen due to the atmosphere of being in an empty theater and having to drive back home on a dark, snowy night. Kept me up a bit late that night. After that I was drawn to more psychological or religious based horror.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 22, 2021, 02:02:50 PM
Random comment about The Exorcist, I think (think because my parents let us roam wild including let us watch horror and R-rated movies even as kids :laugh: ) the first time I saw this is when it got its theatrical re-release in 2000 or 2001. I got off a late night shift working at Sears, one of my friends worked at one of the movie theaters and I dropped by to hang out with him, seeing the skeletons of how a theater ran was something that was fascinating to me. I think The Exorcist was just on its final weeks of being shown as there were only a handful of people in the theater. To this day this remains one of the more disturbing things I've seen due to the atmosphere of being in an empty theater and having to drive back home on a dark, snowy night. Kept me up a bit late that night. After that I was drawn to more psychological or religious based horror.

As a young child, I tried watching The Exorcist on a few occasions with my older sister, but never had the courage to go through the whole film.

However, I finally did watch it when I was an older teenager, with my sister, all the way through, in the early 90s. I couldn't sleep for a few days.

I actually went to the theatre to watch the enhanced version of the early 2000s, and was struck at the end of the film when looking in the audience many pale, ashen teenage faces. The look on their faces gave me great pleasure as I knew they had just been scared out of their minds! Priceless.  :)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on September 23, 2021, 03:54:50 AM
Your stories are priceless! lol  ;D Was trying to remember where I first saw it.  At first, I was thinking that it was in the theater, but then realized that the movie that I had been thinking of was The Omen.  I suspect that it was via t.v.

In any event, I've decided to take the plunge into further Penderecki.  I was able to get ahold of one CD of his orchestral works (Vol. 1 on Naxos with Antoni Wit and the National Polis Radio SO) which I'll dive into later today.  It has Symphony No. 3 on it, the Threnody for the victims of Hiroshima for 52 stringed instruments, Fluorescenes and De natura sonorous II.

I'd like to also hear the other works by him that are used in that movie--his cello concerto, Kanon for Orchestra and Tape, Polymorphia, the Devils of Loudon,  as well as his first string quartet.  As an aside, believe it or not, I've heard Crumb's "Night of the Electric Insects" via a Kronos CD (which I should go back and revisit).  It's on their album called "Black Angels" [part of the first movement in the work also called "Black Angels"].  The first time that I listened to it, I was taken aback by the strangeness of it and thought, yes, it does sound like that!  :o  :)

PD

p.s.  Meant to add that I suspect that Penderecki did (and still does) quite well regarding royalties on sales and showings of "The Exorcist".  If so, good for him!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DavidW on September 23, 2021, 04:15:30 AM
Yes black angels is great and I love that Kronos Q recording.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 23, 2021, 04:17:06 AM

In any event, I've decided to take the plunge into further Penderecki.  I was able to get ahold of one CD of his orchestral works (Vol. 1 on Naxos with Antoni Wit and the National Polis Radio SO) which I'll dive into later today.  It has Symphony No. 3 on it, the Threnody for the victims of Hiroshima for 52 stringed instruments, Fluorescenes and De natura sonorous II.

I'd like to also hear the other works by him that are used in that movie--his cello concerto, Kanon for Orchestra and Tape, Polymorphia, the Devils of Loudon,  as well as his first string quartet.

Polymorphia is down right scary!  :o

You can see and hear The Devils of Loudun on YouTube. I haven't yet found a recording of Kanon for Orchestra and Tape on CD, it will be on the to do list. I have sampled on YouTube.

Symphony #3 was used to great effect in Scorsese's film Shutter Island.

Cello Concerto no. 1 is coming my way in the mail.

Threnody is probably his most famous piece from his avant-garde era.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 23, 2021, 04:18:39 AM
Yes black angels is great and I love that Kronos Q recording.

I have listened to it too, that recording. I had borrowed it from the library. Probably over a dozen years ago.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on September 23, 2021, 05:16:11 AM
I'll have to do some more interlibrary loans.  At the moment, I have a BUNCH of CDs (plus a couple of DVDs) to work my way through and I don't want to get any more behind in my listening! lol  :-[

Note:  I ran across an interesting obit for him by accident:  https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/mar/29/krzysztof-penderecki-obituary

I hadn't realized that he had passed away.  Perhaps due to the name of the thread (as it was started when he was still alive).  Perhaps one of the moderators could update it? 

PD
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on September 23, 2021, 06:46:42 AM
I'll have to do some more interlibrary loans.  At the moment, I have a BUNCH of CDs (plus a couple of DVDs) to work my way through and I don't want to get any more behind in my listening! lol  :-[

Note:  I ran across an interesting obit for him by accident:  https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/mar/29/krzysztof-penderecki-obituary

I hadn't realized that he had passed away.  Perhaps due to the name of the thread (as it was started when he was still alive).  Perhaps one of the moderators could update it? 

PD

The below is copied over from the What are You Listening to Now thread:

Penderecki's third symphony for this CD:

(http://www.classical.net/music/recs/images/n/nxs54491.jpg)

Wow!  Quite powerful, at times shocking and enthralling.  Very dramatic at times...sometimes in a rather dark/troublesome/or evil way.  A couple of things that struck me:  at around roughly 6 minutes into the Allegro con brio movement (the second), the music reminded me of something from Peter Grimes.  The last (fifth) movement at times made me think of Stravinsky's the Rite of Spring.  Lovely adagio (third movement) too.

This symphony was written much later in his life than from what I understand was his earlier more experimental/very contemporary phase (which I have yet to hear much of but hope to also explore).  A quote from him in the liner notes:  "Today, having gone through the post-Romantic lesson, and having exhausted the potential of postmodern thinking, I see my artistic ideal in 'claritas' (1997).

Will check out the other three works on it in a bit.

PD
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 23, 2021, 06:56:24 AM
The below is copied over from the What are You Listening to Now thread:

Penderecki's third symphony for this CD:

(http://www.classical.net/music/recs/images/n/nxs54491.jpg)

Wow!  Quite powerful, at times shocking and enthralling.  Very dramatic at times...sometimes in a rather dark/troublesome/or evil way.  A couple of things that struck me:  at around roughly 6 minutes into the Allegro con brio movement (the second), the music reminded me of something from Peter Grimes.  The last (fifth) movement at times made me think of Stravinsky's the Rite of Spring.  Lovely adagio (third movement) too.

This symphony was written much later in his life than from what I understand was his earlier more experimental/very contemporary phase (which I have yet to hear much of but hope to also explore).  A quote from him in the liner notes:  "Today, having gone through the post-Romantic lesson, and having exhausted the potential of postmodern thinking, I see my artistic ideal in 'claritas' (1997).

Will check out the other three works on it in a bit.

PD

Great review! And yes, the other three works on that CD are from his more experimental phase, you will clearly sense that!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on September 23, 2021, 08:19:35 AM
Thanks!  I just put some of my brief thoughts in the current listening thread.

PD
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 23, 2021, 12:27:49 PM
Just listened to Act I of the St. Luke Passion. Just an amazing piece, quite poignant!  :)

Especially love the final piece of Act I, Et surgens omnis Wonderfully dramatic.

Haven't listened to this in a long time.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 27, 2021, 08:37:12 AM
Just listened to Act I of the St. Luke Passion. Just an amazing piece, quite poignant!  :)

Especially love the final piece of Act I, Et surgens omnis Wonderfully dramatic.

Haven't listened to this in a long time.

Excellent! I love St. Luke Passion. The last recording I listened to was the Nagano on BIS and man what a performance! A must-buy, IMHO.

P.S. Don't buy any more Penderecki right now as you'll have a special package arrive to you on Oct. 3rd. 8)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 27, 2021, 08:44:35 AM
I did manage to buy a copy of this recording:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODA0NDc4OS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1MTI0NjczMzl9)

There are two recordings of this work --- this one on Dux and the Wit on Naxos. I love the Wit recording, but I've been thoroughly impressed with all of the Penderecki Dux recordings I've heard, so definitely looking forward to hearing it.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on September 27, 2021, 08:58:32 AM
Excellent! I love St. Luke Passion. The last recording I listened to was the Nagano on BIS and man what a performance! A must-buy, IMHO.

P.S. Don't buy any more Penderecki right now as you'll have a special package arrive to you on Oct. 3rd. 8)

Oh my, thank you! Wait...... You're not getting rid of all your Penderecki again, are you?  :D ;D :laugh: :P
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 27, 2021, 09:30:58 AM
Oh my, thank you! Wait...... You're not getting rid of all your Penderecki again, are you?  :D ;D :laugh: :P

Hah! :P No, this will be coming from Amazon and my pleasure.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: greg on September 27, 2021, 06:28:13 PM
As a young child, I tried watching The Exorcist on a few occasions with my older sister, but never had the courage to go through the whole film.

However, I finally did watch it when I was an older teenager, with my sister, all the way through, in the early 90s. I couldn't sleep for a few days.

I actually went to the theatre to watch the enhanced version of the early 2000s, and was struck at the end of the film when looking in the audience many pale, ashen teenage faces. The look on their faces gave me great pleasure as I knew they had just been scared out of their minds! Priceless.  :)
Always amuses me hearing people say the movie was scary. Supposedly much more so when it first came out. I felt like the movie was more of a comedy.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 27, 2021, 07:11:03 PM
Always amuses me hearing people say the movie was scary. Supposedly much more so when it first came out. I felt like the movie was more of a comedy.

I've seen far more gruesome and psychologically gripping films since seeing The Exorcist when I was a teenager, but to be amused by people's reactions is strange. Also, you finding it more like a comedy thankfully only speaks of your own experience and not of other people's.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: DavidW on September 28, 2021, 02:36:40 AM
I think Greg became desensitized due to the dramatic increase in graphic violence in movies over the decades.  Most of the great 70s horror movies (except I suppose the cult classics) were more subtle.  Flash forward to today and I remember seeing a movie just a few years back where a family gets run over by a mower.

Well I still think that the Exorcist is the best horror movie ever made.  It has pitch perfect pacing and character development.  Most horror movies make the characters unlikable or unmemorable so you root for the killer/evil whatever.  But not this movie.  It is story and themes first, gore and set pieces second.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 28, 2021, 05:39:09 AM
I think Greg became desensitized due to the dramatic increase in graphic violence in movies over the decades.  Most of the great 70s horror movies (except I suppose the cult classics) were more subtle.  Flash forward to today and I remember seeing a movie just a few years back where a family gets run over by a mower.

Well I still think that the Exorcist is the best horror movie ever made.  It has pitch perfect pacing and character development.  Most horror movies make the characters unlikable or unmemorable so you root for the killer/evil whatever.  But not this movie.  It is story and themes first, gore and set pieces second.

Absolutely. The Shining and The Fly (although not strictly "horror" but rather science fiction horror) are two other examples of where there's constant development of the characters and the descent into madness breaks the heart.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: greg on September 28, 2021, 02:21:41 PM
I think Greg became desensitized due to the dramatic increase in graphic violence in movies over the decades.  Most of the great 70s horror movies (except I suppose the cult classics) were more subtle.  Flash forward to today and I remember seeing a movie just a few years back where a family gets run over by a mower.

Well I still think that the Exorcist is the best horror movie ever made.  It has pitch perfect pacing and character development.  Most horror movies make the characters unlikable or unmemorable so you root for the killer/evil whatever.  But not this movie.  It is story and themes first, gore and set pieces second.
Idk about that, watched it probably a decade ago IIRC, and before that wasn't regularly watching many gory or scary movies (would be a rare thing especially with my family). Last two years or so I've been watching them more, mainly ones I've heard about or missed out on.

I just don't find movies, games (or books, to add to that) particularly scary. But they can be cool- the horror aesthetic is great. Movies with gore can be gross, though, not a fan of too much gore. What I have found to be VERY scary, though, is VR horror games. Some of the most terrifying moments of my life there. But strangely enough, once I just get into the mode of "lol it's not even real," then I can turn the fear switch off very easily, and go through any "scary" situation fearlessly.

Surely I bet you could find other people that feel the same way, even if it isn't a majority opinion.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 04, 2021, 06:10:37 PM
Lots of recent talk about Penderecki here so I thought I would I share a piece of his that has really impressed me, Utrenja. It is endlessly fascinating and powerful. I don't have a ton of knowledge of Penderecki's works, in fact someone from GMG might've sent me this CD (see below) along with a few others.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Fbx24QdpL._SL1200_.jpg)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 04, 2021, 07:00:43 PM
Lots of recent talk about Penderecki here so I thought I would I share a piece of his that has really impressed me, Utrenja. It is endlessly fascinating and powerful. I don't have a ton of knowledge of Penderecki's works, in fact someone from GMG might've sent me this CD (see below) along with a few others.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Fbx24QdpL._SL1200_.jpg)

A frightening piece, but I do love it quite a bit I must say. I wouldn't rank it ahead of St. Luke Passion, but there are some terrifying moments in Utrenja. I like the Wit performance, but can definitely recommend this one as well:

(https://img.discogs.com/T7jlnDvQoDngqSl5DJH_-TSsQXE=/fit-in/600x536/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-8264587-1458240916-2613.jpeg.jpg)(https://img.discogs.com/gnbEVA5P9UfXawfSIp1ZYafFQjs=/fit-in/600x532/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-8264587-1458240917-4565.jpeg.jpg)(https://img.discogs.com/dMVyGLf_C_6NImFtDiL1yO-_kFM=/fit-in/596x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-8264587-1458240923-4136.jpeg.jpg)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 04, 2021, 07:01:23 PM
Damn, maybe I should change my avatar back to Penderecki. :P
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on October 04, 2021, 10:05:23 PM
A frightening piece, but I do love it quite a bit I must say. I wouldn't rank it ahead of St. Luke Passion, but there are some terrifying moments in Utrenja. I like the Wit performance, but can definitely recommend this one as well:

(https://img.discogs.com/T7jlnDvQoDngqSl5DJH_-TSsQXE=/fit-in/600x536/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-8264587-1458240916-2613.jpeg.jpg)(https://img.discogs.com/gnbEVA5P9UfXawfSIp1ZYafFQjs=/fit-in/600x532/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-8264587-1458240917-4565.jpeg.jpg)(https://img.discogs.com/dMVyGLf_C_6NImFtDiL1yO-_kFM=/fit-in/596x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-8264587-1458240923-4136.jpeg.jpg)

Does this recording include the sung text? That's a massive hurdle for me in this work, the lack of followable libretto in the Wit recording. I know there's probably copyright reasons, but surely they should be able to negotiate those if they're to release a recording of a difficult-to-follow work.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on October 05, 2021, 04:57:54 AM
A frightening piece, but I do love it quite a bit I must say. I wouldn't rank it ahead of St. Luke Passion, but there are some terrifying moments in Utrenja. I like the Wit performance, but can definitely recommend this one as well:

(https://img.discogs.com/T7jlnDvQoDngqSl5DJH_-TSsQXE=/fit-in/600x536/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-8264587-1458240916-2613.jpeg.jpg)(https://img.discogs.com/gnbEVA5P9UfXawfSIp1ZYafFQjs=/fit-in/600x532/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-8264587-1458240917-4565.jpeg.jpg)(https://img.discogs.com/dMVyGLf_C_6NImFtDiL1yO-_kFM=/fit-in/596x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-8264587-1458240923-4136.jpeg.jpg)

Lots of recent talk about Penderecki here so I thought I would I share a piece of his that has really impressed me, Utrenja. It is endlessly fascinating and powerful. I don't have a ton of knowledge of Penderecki's works, in fact someone from GMG might've sent me this CD (see below) along with a few others.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Fbx24QdpL._SL1200_.jpg)

Yup!  :)

(https://miro.medium.com/max/700/1*ezsVL0uVbGg2RU5nqUGjPA.png)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on October 05, 2021, 05:03:06 AM
Well, we know that music is the greatest gift humanity has bestowed upon humanity, there isn't anything else remotely close.

AND, I received a gift of this gift, courtesy of John (MI).   :)  Another wonderful surprise, and a tremendous recording!  8)  Many thanks, John.

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODc3NzQ3NC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1OTA0OTc5NDh9)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Cato on October 05, 2021, 05:24:48 AM
Lots of recent talk about Penderecki here so I thought I would I share a piece of his that has really impressed me, Utrenja. It is endlessly fascinating and powerful. I don't have a ton of knowledge of Penderecki's works, in fact someone from GMG might've sent me this CD (see below) along with a few others.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Fbx24QdpL._SL1200_.jpg)

I invested in the score in the 1970's when only Part I was available: a friend imported it for me from Germany.  (I just unpacked it last week. )   I was particularly interested in Penderecki's use of quarter-tones 

Yes, an excellent work!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 05, 2021, 07:28:51 AM
Does this recording include the sung text? That's a massive hurdle for me in this work, the lack of followable libretto in the Wit recording. I know there's probably copyright reasons, but surely they should be able to negotiate those if they're to release a recording of a difficult-to-follow work.

Unfortunately, it does not. To be honest, I'm not all that crazy about Utrenja as I revisited some of it last night and it seems my impressions weren't very favorable this time around. I believe he wrote better choral works than this one like Magnificat for example. Of course, A Polish Requiem, St. Luke Passion and Seven Gates of Jerusalem, "Symphony No. 7" are more of my thing.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 05, 2021, 07:29:53 AM
Well, we know that music is the greatest gift humanity has bestowed upon humanity, there isn't anything else remotely close.

AND, I received a gift of this gift, courtesy of John (MI).   :)  Another wonderful surprise, and a tremendous recording!  8)  Many thanks, John.

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODc3NzQ3NC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1OTA0OTc5NDh9)

Pounds the table!
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on October 05, 2021, 07:43:47 AM
Unfortunately, it does not. To be honest, I'm not all that crazy about Utrenja as I revisited some of it last night and it seems my impressions weren't very favorable this time around. I believe he wrote better choral works than this one like Magnificat for example. Of course, A Polish Requiem, St. Luke Passion and Seven Gates of Jerusalem, "Symphony No. 7" are more of my thing.

Well John, this is where you and I are at different opinions within our admiration of Penderecki. I love Utrenja and it is my favourite choral work of his alongside the St. Luke Passion.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 05, 2021, 07:47:31 AM
Well John, this is where you and I are at different opinions within our admiration of Penderecki. I love Utrenja and it is my favourite choral work of his alongside the St. Luke Passion.

Different tastes are always a good thing I say. 8)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on October 05, 2021, 08:13:05 AM
Different tastes are always a good thing I say. 8)

Absolutely, mon ami.  8)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on October 05, 2021, 08:57:45 AM
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODkxNTQ1OS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2MjEwMDE1MjZ9)

First listen to this disc, and it is a whopper of a great one at that!  All of these works are unique and quite different from one and the other.  They also span the whole of Penderecki's musical life and thus reflect the whole gamut of his different styles.

I'll give it a 9/10, and the only reason it isn't a 10 is the performance of the 1st quartet is not quite as well articulated as other recordings I have heard before (Kohon and LaSalle).  I find it a bit lacking in detail compared to these recordings.  Nevertheless, this is huge success of a recording as a whole!  :)

Particularly great standouts are the String Quartet No. 3 "Leaves from an Unwritten Diary" and String Quartet No. 4.  Both are showstoppers!   8)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on October 05, 2021, 09:06:29 AM
Wow, 4 quartets and a trio crammed into just a 52-minute disc? Didn't write much for the form, did he?
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 05, 2021, 09:07:57 AM
Wow, 4 quartets and a trio crammed into just a 52-minute disc? Didn't write much for the form, did he?

The 1st and 2nd SQs are short works and the 4th SQ was left behind as a fragment I'm assuming.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Symphonic Addict on October 05, 2021, 07:18:31 PM
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODkxNTQ1OS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2MjEwMDE1MjZ9)

First listen to this disc, and it is a whopper of a great one at that!  All of these works are unique and quite different from one and the other.  They also span the whole of Penderecki's musical life and thus reflect the whole gamut of his different styles.

I'll give it a 9/10, and the only reason it isn't a 10 is the performance of the 1st quartet is not quite as well articulated as other recordings I have heard before (Kohon and LaSalle).  I find it a bit lacking in detail compared to these recordings.  Nevertheless, this is huge success of a recording as a whole!  :)

Particularly great standouts are the String Quartet No. 3 "Leaves from an Unwritten Diary" and String Quartet No. 4.  Both are showstoppers!   8)

There is also this Chandos disc devoted to his string quartets, and I was thinking about how they would compare. This is superb music.

(https://www.chandos.net/artwork/CH20175.jpg)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Symphonic Addict on October 05, 2021, 07:20:10 PM
Lots of recent talk about Penderecki here so I thought I would I share a piece of his that has really impressed me, Utrenja. It is endlessly fascinating and powerful. I don't have a ton of knowledge of Penderecki's works, in fact someone from GMG might've sent me this CD (see below) along with a few others.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Fbx24QdpL._SL1200_.jpg)

I have the recording on the Polish label, and it's indeed a terryfying and gripping masterpiece.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on October 06, 2021, 07:34:29 AM
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODAwNDM3OS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NjEwODE0NDl9)

Listening now (first listen ever) to Anaklasis, for strings and percussion (1959).  Whoa, what a tremendous short piece!  :o
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 06, 2021, 07:38:27 AM
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODAwNDM3OS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NjEwODE0NDl9)

Listening now (first listen ever) to Anaklasis, for strings and percussion (1959).  Whoa, what a tremendous short piece!  :o

Indeed! That whole 2-CD set is grade A Penderecki. 8)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on October 06, 2021, 07:40:57 AM
Indeed! That whole 2-CD set is grade A Penderecki. 8)

Yes, I'm listening to both CDs today.   :)  Will be my first run through for most of these performances and works.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 06, 2021, 07:47:08 AM
Yes, I'm listening to both CDs today.   :)  Will be my first run through for most of these performances and works.

Very nice. 8)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on October 07, 2021, 08:26:09 AM
Now listening to this great an highly enjoyable disc, which I hadn't listened to for quite some time!  :)

Credo - 1998
Cantata in honorem Almae Matris Universitatis Iagellonicae sescentos abhinc annos fundatae - 1964


The Credo is highly accessible Penderecki, smooth enough for anyone fond of Romantic Era choral and sacred music.  It is truly gorgeous music.   :-*  While the Cantata is from his more 'acerbic' period.  ;)

(https://pisces.bbystatic.com/image2/BestBuy_US/images/products/1883/18830968_so.jpg)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on October 07, 2021, 11:49:23 AM
Now onto the amazing Polish Requiem.  A work of such immense power and weightiness.  A wonderful combination of beauty and intensity!  :)

(https://www.naxos.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/8.557386-87.jpg)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: relm1 on October 07, 2021, 05:14:07 PM
Now onto the amazing Polish Requiem.  A work of such immense power and weightiness.  A wonderful combination of beauty and intensity!  :)

(https://www.naxos.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/8.557386-87.jpg)

I prefer this recording:
https://www.discogs.com/release/13124788-Krzysztof-Penderecki-Volume-Five-Polskie-RequiemPolish-Requiem-Dies-Irae

Unfortunately, it doesn't include later movements but of the original movements, this one is more dramatic.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 07, 2021, 08:42:12 PM
I prefer this recording:
https://www.discogs.com/release/13124788-Krzysztof-Penderecki-Volume-Five-Polskie-RequiemPolish-Requiem-Dies-Irae

Unfortunately, it doesn't include later movements but of the original movements, this one is more dramatic.

I own all of those Penderecki recordings on Polskie Nagrania and they are all superb. If OrchestralNut can find them all, they'd be an asset to his collection.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on October 08, 2021, 10:16:42 AM
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODc4Mjc0NC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1ODg1Nzk3Mjd9)

Does anybody have this series of Dux (concerti) series?  I guess John (MI) probably does.  This one in particular seems of interest to me, mainly for the transcription of the Double Concerto for violin and viola into an Accordion Concerto.  :)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 08, 2021, 07:53:09 PM
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODc4Mjc0NC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1ODg1Nzk3Mjd9)

Does anybody have this series of Dux (concerti) series?  I guess John (MI) probably does.  This one in particular seems of interest to me, mainly for the transcription of the Double Concerto for violin and viola into an Accordion Concerto.  :)

Yeah, I own most of the Dux recordings, but I'll definitely not be getting the concerti recordings with transcriptions as I really have no interest. The Dux series of Penderecki is EXCELLENT! Definitely worth looking into, Ray. The downside of Dux is their recordings are rather on the expensive side and I think there's a bit of an availability problem now, but they did box up the symphonies (sans the 6th, which curiously Dux hasn't recorded yet):

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/4167jDfDAnL.jpg)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on October 09, 2021, 05:32:08 AM
I don't know if Dux will record/release the 6th Symphony, given the rest of the symphonies in that cycle are all conducted by the composer himself and obviously (unfortunately) he's not around to do that now.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 09, 2021, 06:16:12 AM
I don't know if Dux will record/release the 6th Symphony, given the rest of the symphonies in that cycle are all conducted by the composer himself and obviously (unfortunately) he's not around to do that now.

A good point. If I was Dux, I would've reconsidered putting out a box with the title "The Complete Symphonies".
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on October 09, 2021, 11:14:10 AM
I believe at the time it was released it was "the complete symphonies" as No. 6 hadn't been completed.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on October 10, 2021, 07:57:34 AM
Added another four to my collection (order just placed today):

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71DwCk7pEsL._AC_SL1200_.jpg)

(https://img.discogs.com/NykV-HTuahOnXOSW_Le_oRu2aYs=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-1078203-1190509627.jpeg.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/A1K6ukGyy0L._SL1500_.jpg)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71OFzJ2bhkL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 10, 2021, 07:45:21 PM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71OFzJ2bhkL._SS500_.jpg)

This is an outstanding 2-CD set, Ray. I own it in this incarnation:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODMzOTgwMy4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NjEwODI5NjB9)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on October 11, 2021, 05:30:53 AM
This is an outstanding 2-CD set, Ray. I own it in this incarnation:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODMzOTgwMy4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NjEwODI5NjB9)

Yes, I saw that incarnation John too. But it was at an astronomical price. That is why I bought the reissue.

I bought it specifically to have a recording for Kanon for Tape and Orchestra.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on October 11, 2021, 05:50:23 AM
Are there any commercial recordings available for any of Penderecki's four operas? Or all out of print, pricey and extremely rare to find, requiring a second mortgage on your home?

The Devils of Loudun (1968-69)
Paradise Lost (1975-78)
The Black Mask (1984-86)
Ubu Rex (1990-91)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 11, 2021, 06:22:00 AM
Yes, I saw that incarnation John too. But it was at an astronomical price. That is why I bought the reissue.

I bought it specifically to have a recording for Kanon for Tape and Orchestra.

I bought both first issued EMI 2-CD sets from a seller off of Discogs. They were both in mint condition and the price was too good to pass up. As for Kanon, I'm honestly surprised that Wit didn't record it for Naxos or that an earlier performance doesn't exist on the Polskie Nagrania Muza label.

Are there any commercial recordings available for any of Penderecki's four operas? Or all out of print, pricey and extremely rare to find, requiring a second mortgage on your home?

The Devils of Loudun (1968-69)
Paradise Lost (1975-78)
The Black Mask (1984-86)
Ubu Rex (1990-91)

I think only The Devils of Loudun has had a commercial recording (on Philips), but as we know, it's OOP and difficult to obtain a copy for a reasonable price. The other operas haven't been recorded as far as I know. Only the Adagietto from Paradise Lost has been recorded a number times by Penderecki himself and some others.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: ultralinear on October 11, 2021, 09:53:10 AM
I think only The Devils of Loudun has had a commercial recording (on Philips), but as we know, it's OOP and difficult to obtain a copy for a reasonable price. The other operas haven't been recorded as far as I know.

A live 2003 recording of Ubu Rex is available on the Accord label:

(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/lm41472110/CDart2484.jpg) (http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/lm41472110/CDart2485.jpg)

It comes in a 2-CD box with quite a sumptuous booklet including full libretto in German/Polish/English and photos from the stage production:

(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/lm41472110/CDart2496.jpg)(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/lm41472110/CDart2497.jpg)(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/lm41472110/CDart2498.jpg)(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/lm41472110/CDart2499.jpg)(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/lm41472110/CDart2500.jpg)(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/lm41472110/CDart2501.jpg)(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/lm41472110/CDart2502.jpg)(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/lm41472110/CDart2503.jpg)(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/lm41472110/CDart2504.jpg)(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/lm41472110/CDart2505.jpg)(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/lm41472110/CDart2506.jpg)(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/lm41472110/CDart2507.jpg)(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/lm41472110/CDart2508.jpg)(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/lm41472110/CDart2509.jpg)

Amazon UK claim to have it in stock it for GBP 30, Presto list it for 25.50 but say it's "out of stock at the distributor", which often is code for "unobtainable".  Although it describes itself as a 2004 issue, I bought it as soon as it became available here, which was not that many years ago.

It's a long time since I listened to it, but I recall liking it a lot.  It helps if you're familiar with the play (by Jarry.)

Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 11, 2021, 08:08:25 PM
A live 2003 recording of Ubu Rex is available on the Accord label:

(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/lm41472110/CDart2484.jpg) (http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/lm41472110/CDart2485.jpg)

It comes in a 2-CD box with quite a sumptuous booklet including full libretto in German/Polish/English and photos from the stage production:

(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/lm41472110/CDart2496.jpg)(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/lm41472110/CDart2497.jpg)(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/lm41472110/CDart2498.jpg)(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/lm41472110/CDart2499.jpg)(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/lm41472110/CDart2500.jpg)(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/lm41472110/CDart2501.jpg)(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/lm41472110/CDart2502.jpg)(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/lm41472110/CDart2503.jpg)(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/lm41472110/CDart2504.jpg)(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/lm41472110/CDart2505.jpg)(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/lm41472110/CDart2506.jpg)(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/lm41472110/CDart2507.jpg)(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/lm41472110/CDart2508.jpg)(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/lm41472110/CDart2509.jpg)

Amazon UK claim to have it in stock it for GBP 30, Presto list it for 25.50 but say it's "out of stock at the distributor", which often is code for "unobtainable".  Although it describes itself as a 2004 issue, I bought it as soon as it became available here, which was not that many years ago.

It's a long time since I listened to it, but I recall liking it a lot.  It helps if you're familiar with the play (by Jarry.)

Very cool. 8) Looks like a nice recording. The CD Accord label is, of course, fantastic and I've never bought a bad recording on their label. Looks like I may have to do some digging around to see if I can obtain a copy.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on October 12, 2021, 03:54:06 AM
Very cool. 8) Looks like a nice recording. The CD Accord label is, of course, fantastic and I've never bought a bad recording on their label. Looks like I may have to do some digging around to see if I can obtain a copy.

Looks like there is a brand new copy on eBay for about $37 cdn plus shipping.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 12, 2021, 06:22:01 AM
Looks like there is a brand new copy on eBay for about $37 cdn plus shipping.

8) Thanks, Ray, but I've decided not to buy it and find a copy of The Devils of Loudun instead, which will prove easier said than done. ;)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on October 12, 2021, 06:24:01 AM
8) Thanks, Ray, but I've decided not to buy it and find a copy of The Devils of Loudun instead, which will prove easier said than done. ;)

If you find two copies of The Devils of Loudun, please get it for me or let me know, as that is the one composition I really, really want!! 🙂
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 12, 2021, 06:25:18 AM
If you find two copies of The Devils of Loudun, please get it for me or let me know, as that is the one composition I really, really want!! 🙂

Will do, Ray. 8)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on October 12, 2021, 06:25:47 AM
Will do, Ray. 8)

I don't want to get into a bidding war with you, John.  ;) ;D
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: orchestrion on October 15, 2021, 09:42:28 AM
I have a recording of Paradise Lost, I don't remember where I got it from or when, but (like pretty much all his work from the mid 1970s onward) I found it turgid, monotonous and unoriginal. The Devils of Loudun is a different matter, its succession of brief scenes matched by the kind of collage-like musical form he had made his own at that time, its musical idiom perfectly matched to its dramatic material. I'm surprised to see so much admiration here for his later work. To me it seems so dull and unvaried (as is perhaps evidenced by the way some of the concertos can be so easily arranged for different solo instruments).
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on October 15, 2021, 10:38:37 AM
Don't be that surprised. There's a reason it's approachable. We like tonal music here.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: orchestrion on October 15, 2021, 01:55:24 PM
Indeed pretty much everyone likes tonal music, but some people don't only like tonal music, and nobody likes all tonal music! Regarding Penderecki: his earlier music strikes me as imaginative and exploratory, his later music as limited in both sonic and expressive senses, and for those reasons quite unapproachable in fact - whether it's tonal doesn't have much to do with it, and in fact his earlier music deploys tonality in some really interesting and unexpected ways, like the Orthodox chant-like moments in Utrenja.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on October 15, 2021, 03:18:40 PM
Well, you'll have to count me in as one who likes a wide variety of Penderecki's works from early to late. I'm sure John (MI) and some others feels the same way.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 16, 2021, 07:00:26 AM
Well, you'll have to count me in as one who likes a wide variety of Penderecki's works from early to late. I'm sure John (MI) and some others feels the same way.

Yes, I think there's a lot to enjoy in all of Penderecki's oeuvre. Also, this belief that his earlier, more avant-garde works are somehow better just because they're wilder and more spontaneous is wrong-headed, IMHO. The composer has stated many times that he needed to move away from this style as he felt he had exhausted it, which I believe he did and the proof of this in the pudding as the saying goes. Penderecki's more tonal works are incredibly focused works that require more than a passing listen to get into and understand. One can very well just not like the music, but no one should make the mistake of completely writing these works off. Works like the Horn Concerto, String Quartet No. 3, "Leaves of an unwritten diary", Symphonies Nos. 6, 7 & 8, A Sea of Dreams Did Breathe on Me, the Sinfoniettas, the Sextet, Violin Sonata No. 2 et. al. all demonstrate a wide range of style. I think once a person actually starts digging into his oeuvre and not just superficially, they will begin to realize there's more variety in his writing then what was initially thought.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Maestro267 on October 16, 2021, 07:49:50 AM
Yes, I think there's a lot to enjoy in all of Penderecki's oeuvre. Also, this belief that his earlier, more avant-garde works are somehow better just because they're wilder and more spontaneous is wrong-headed, IMHO. The composer has stated many times that he needed to move away from this style as he felt he had exhausted it, which I believe he did and the proof of this in the pudding as the saying goes. Penderecki's more tonal works are incredibly focused works that require more than a passing listen to get into and understand. One can very well just not like the music, but no one should make the mistake of completely writing these works off. Works like the Horn Concerto, String Quartet No. 3, "Leaves of an unwritten diary", Symphonies Nos. 6, 7 & 8, A Sea of Dreams Did Breathe on Me, the Sinfoniettas, the Sextet, Violin Sonata No. 2 et. al. all demonstrate a wide range of style. I think once a person actually starts digging into his oeuvre and not just superficially, they will begin to realize there's more variety in his writing then what was initially thought.

This, 100%. He got 40+ years of works out of the tonal idiom compared to 20 years at most out of avant-garde.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: orchestrion on October 16, 2021, 09:04:16 AM
The composer has stated many times that he needed to move away from this style as he felt he had exhausted it
This is clear. But whether it was really necessary to go from there to a much more retrospective style is another question. I remember reading an interview with him from (I think) the mid-1970s in which he said he might go more deeply into electronic music, which would have been interesting, given the partly electronic soundtrack he had already composed for the film The Saragossa Manuscript in 1965. Having said all this, much of his earlier work is quite derivative of the music of some of his contemporaries, Xenakis, Ligeti and Stockhausen in particular, sometimes almost to the point of plagiarism (Ligeti's Continuum in his Partita for harpsichord and orchestra, Stockhausen's Momente in Canticum Canticorum Salomonis etc.). This habit of his is something else I find puzzling about his work.

this belief that his earlier, more avant-garde works are somehow better just because they're wilder and more spontaneous is wrong-headed
It's a matter of taste, not of the rightness or wrongness of one's head, isn't it? Some of us might find wildness and spontaneity highly attractive as features of music. Anyway it's interesting that you find a wide range of style in the works you mention, and thanks for those recommendations, I do sometimes delve into Penderecki's later music to try to find something in it that I can get to grips with (rather than "writing it off"), but so far I haven't been successful. Going back then to the music from the 1960-75 period I feel much more at home.

This, 100%. He got 40+ years of works out of the tonal idiom compared to 20 years at most out of avant-garde.

And Paul McCartney got 8 years out of the Beatles followed by 50 years (and counting) from his rather less inspired later output. That's a non-argument really...
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on October 16, 2021, 01:45:55 PM
To me it seems so dull and unvaried (as is perhaps evidenced by the way some of the concertos can be so easily arranged for different solo instruments).

Guess that is why Johann Sebastian Bach wrote so much dull music, as his is easily arranged for other instruments.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: orchestrion on October 16, 2021, 02:25:55 PM
Guess that is why Johann Sebastian Bach wrote so much dull music, as his is easily arranged for other instruments.
I don't think there's any call for sarcasm! As you must be aware, the solo part in a 20th or 21st century concerto can't really be compared with the parts in a piece of baroque music. The composer under discussion is one whose music up to a certain point in his artistic development is highly sophisticated in its sensitivity to timbre and texture, and then this sophistication seems to be abandoned, which I think is really a shame. I would really like to appreciate the later output of someone whose earlier work made such a strong impression on me, but so far I haven't succeeded. Anyway, his Horn Concerto beckons.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Symphonic Addict on October 16, 2021, 06:30:57 PM
I don't think there's any call for sarcasm! As you must be aware, the solo part in a 20th or 21st century concerto can't really be compared with the parts in a piece of baroque music. The composer under discussion is one whose music up to a certain point in his artistic development is highly sophisticated in its sensitivity to timbre and texture, and then this sophistication seems to be abandoned, which I think is really a shame. I would really like to appreciate the later output of someone whose earlier work made such a strong impression on me, but so far I haven't succeeded. Anyway, his Horn Concerto beckons.

You seem like you want or enjoy disliking Penderecki's later works. Ok, we all know you have your opinion and others have their own. Let's move on.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 16, 2021, 07:05:26 PM
This is clear. But whether it was really necessary to go from there to a much more retrospective style is another question. I remember reading an interview with him from (I think) the mid-1970s in which he said he might go more deeply into electronic music, which would have been interesting, given the partly electronic soundtrack he had already composed for the film The Saragossa Manuscript in 1965. Having said all this, much of his earlier work is quite derivative of the music of some of his contemporaries, Xenakis, Ligeti and Stockhausen in particular, sometimes almost to the point of plagiarism (Ligeti's Continuum in his Partita for harpsichord and orchestra, Stockhausen's Momente in Canticum Canticorum Salomonis etc.). This habit of his is something else I find puzzling about his work.
 It's a matter of taste, not of the rightness or wrongness of one's head, isn't it? Some of us might find wildness and spontaneity highly attractive as features of music. Anyway it's interesting that you find a wide range of style in the works you mention, and thanks for those recommendations, I do sometimes delve into Penderecki's later music to try to find something in it that I can get to grips with (rather than "writing it off"), but so far I haven't been successful. Going back then to the music from the 1960-75 period I feel much more at home.

The composer wrote the music that he wanted to write. Like it or dislike it is up to the listener. I'm just saying, in my own experience, that it's best not to completely dismiss music which later could speak to you in a way that you hadn't imagined before. I will say that it took me quite some time to come around to Penderecki, but I heard something within his style that spoke to me, I just didn't have the necessary key to unlock what it was that made me continuously try his music. I'm glad I persevered and gave his music a chance to grow on me.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: orchestrion on October 16, 2021, 10:36:58 PM
Works like the Horn Concerto, String Quartet No. 3, "Leaves of an unwritten diary", Symphonies Nos. 6, 7 & 8, A Sea of Dreams Did Breathe on Me, the Sinfoniettas, the Sextet, Violin Sonata No. 2 et. al. all demonstrate a wide range of style.
Thanks again for these recommendations. I've been listening to the Horn Concerto, Sextet and A Sea of Dreams..., none of which I'd heard before, and indeed found much more variety than I'd anticipated. While I found the Concerto and Sextet a bit incoherent, A Sea of Dreams... kept me fascinated from start to finish. While there are obvious (and for me quite unexpected) echoes of Szymanowski, I really wouldn't have guessed the composer if I hadn't known: there's a subtlety in the scoring, material and form which I hadn't previously experienced in his later music. I look forward to exploring your other selections.

You seem like you want or enjoy disliking Penderecki's later works.
Not in the least, as you see.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 17, 2021, 06:30:51 AM
Thanks again for these recommendations. I've been listening to the Horn Concerto, Sextet and A Sea of Dreams..., none of which I'd heard before, and indeed found much more variety than I'd anticipated. While I found the Concerto and Sextet a bit incoherent, A Sea of Dreams... kept me fascinated from start to finish. While there are obvious (and for me quite unexpected) echoes of Szymanowski, I really wouldn't have guessed the composer if I hadn't known: there's a subtlety in the scoring, material and form which I hadn't previously experienced in his later music. I look forward to exploring your other selections.

Excellent to read, orchestrion. I'm glad you could find something to enjoy. 8)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on October 19, 2021, 06:24:40 AM
Now listening to this stunning 2-disc, a gift from John (MI) - Many thanks again, my friend.  :)  Impeccable performances!

Includes:

La Follia (2013) for solo violin
Duo concertante (2010) for violin and double bass
Sonata No. 2 (1999) for violin and piano
Metamorphosen, Violin Concerto No. 2 (1992-95)


(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODQ1NjcyOS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1NTU5MzY4NDR9)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 19, 2021, 06:30:31 AM
Now listening to this stunning 2-disc, a gift from John (MI) - Many thanks again, my friend.  :)  Impeccable performances!

Includes:

La Follia (2013) for solo violin
Duo concertante (2010) for violin and double bass
Sonata No. 2 (1999) for violin and piano
Metamorphosen, Violin Concerto No. 2 (1992-95)


(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODQ1NjcyOS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1NTU5MzY4NDR9)

You're welcome and, yes, there's much to enjoy in that set.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on October 19, 2021, 06:51:49 AM
Thanks again for these recommendations. I've been listening to the Horn Concerto, Sextet and A Sea of Dreams..., none of which I'd heard before, and indeed found much more variety than I'd anticipated. While I found the Concerto and Sextet a bit incoherent, A Sea of Dreams... kept me fascinated from start to finish. While there are obvious (and for me quite unexpected) echoes of Szymanowski, I really wouldn't have guessed the composer if I hadn't known: there's a subtlety in the scoring, material and form which I hadn't previously experienced in his later music. I look forward to exploring your other selections.
 Not in the least, as you see.

One more "later" work that I feel needs to be added to the list (one of my favourite Penderecki works, regardless of period) is his Credo - 1998

I vigourously recommend it to anyone.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 19, 2021, 07:01:59 AM
One more "later" work that I feel needs to be added to the list (one of my favourite Penderecki works, regardless of period) is his Credo - 1998

I vigourously recommend it to anyone.

Oh yes! That's a fine work, but which recording? There are several now:

(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/65/06/5902176500665_600.jpg)(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk4ODI0Ni4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NTd9)(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk3Mjg2MC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NDN9)

I've heard the Wit and Rilling. Both are outstanding performances. I haven't heard the Kord recording but I like his conducting a lot and his recording of Gates of Jerusalem ("Symphony No. 7") is amazing.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on October 19, 2021, 07:03:01 AM
Oh yes! That's a fine work, but which recording? There are several now:

(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/65/06/5902176500665_600.jpg)(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk4ODI0Ni4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NTd9)(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk3Mjg2MC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NDN9)

I've heard the Wit and Rilling. Both are outstanding performances. I haven't heard the Kord recording but I like his conducting a lot and his recording of Gates of Jerusalem ("Symphony No. 7") is amazing.

I only have the Wit recording, John.  :)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on October 19, 2021, 07:10:15 AM
A frightening piece, but I do love it quite a bit I must say. I wouldn't rank it ahead of St. Luke Passion, but there are some terrifying moments in Utrenja. I like the Wit performance, but can definitely recommend this one as well:

(https://img.discogs.com/T7jlnDvQoDngqSl5DJH_-TSsQXE=/fit-in/600x536/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-8264587-1458240916-2613.jpeg.jpg)(https://img.discogs.com/gnbEVA5P9UfXawfSIp1ZYafFQjs=/fit-in/600x532/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-8264587-1458240917-4565.jpeg.jpg)(https://img.discogs.com/dMVyGLf_C_6NImFtDiL1yO-_kFM=/fit-in/596x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-8264587-1458240923-4136.jpeg.jpg)

Well, I tried to order this one on eBay (my first ever bid) and I was the only bidder.  A day before the bidding was to expire, the seller retracted the item off, so I'm SOL.  >:(
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: orchestrion on October 19, 2021, 07:42:15 AM
Well, I tried to order this one on eBay (my first ever bid) and I was the only bidder.  A day before the bidding was to expire, the seller retracted the item
That's a shame. For me this is possibly the best thing he ever wrote, and I think this recording is far preferable to Wit (despite the other Penderecki recordings from Wit being excellent, the ones I've heard anyway) - all the performers, especially the vocal soloists, are going for maximum intensity rather than the restrained approach in the more recent recording. Compare for example the basso profundo soloists, or the tenor solo in the second movement of part I which is jaw-dropping in Markowski's recording.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on October 19, 2021, 07:46:02 AM
That's a shame. For me this is possibly the best thing he ever wrote, and I think this recording is far preferable to Wit (despite the other Penderecki recordings from Wit being excellent, the ones I've heard anyway) - all the performers, especially the vocal soloists, are going for maximum intensity rather than the restrained approach in the more recent recording. Compare for example the basso profundo soloists, or the tenor solo in the second movement of part I which is jaw-dropping in Markowski's recording.

Yes, it is a shame.  Utrenja is indeed one of my favourite works.  I have the Wit and do enjoy it, but really wanted this recording.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 19, 2021, 08:13:58 AM
Well, I tried to order this one on eBay (my first ever bid) and I was the only bidder.  A day before the bidding was to expire, the seller retracted the item off, so I'm SOL.  >:(

Damn, that sucks, Ray. Have you tried acquiring it in this issue?

(https://img.discogs.com/zh2GqazAUAUGmpMQh9yi85qSQec=/fit-in/500x500/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-7060305-1432765999-1120.jpeg.jpg)

I'd send this one to you, but it's a part of a five-part series that I'm not about to break up. :) I also own that gold disc reissue, which is difficult to find, so I won't be parting with that one either. ;)

I see there's two of them on eBay for a fair price:

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/324663970600?hash=item4b977b0b28:g:pRcAAOSwQUFgMI-s (https://www.ebay.ca/itm/324663970600?hash=item4b977b0b28:g:pRcAAOSwQUFgMI-s)

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/203274999657?hash=item2f54225769:g:nzAAAOSwIihgGpFz (https://www.ebay.ca/itm/203274999657?hash=item2f54225769:g:nzAAAOSwIihgGpFz)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on October 19, 2021, 08:16:55 AM
Damn, that sucks, Ray. Have you tried acquiring it in this issue?

(https://img.discogs.com/zh2GqazAUAUGmpMQh9yi85qSQec=/fit-in/500x500/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-7060305-1432765999-1120.jpeg.jpg)

I'd send this one to you, but it's a part of a five-part series that I'm not about to break up. :) I also own that gold disc reissue, which is difficult to find, so I won't be parting with that one either. ;)

I'll keep looking John, thanks.  Eventually it will resurface.  :)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 19, 2021, 08:44:45 AM
I'll keep looking John, thanks.  Eventually it will resurface.  :)

Just an FYI, I edited my reply to you and included links to eBay. ;)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 20, 2021, 09:11:38 AM
Polymorphia is down right scary!  :o

You can see and hear The Devils of Loudun on YouTube. I haven't yet found a recording of Kanon for Orchestra and Tape on CD, it will be on the to do list. I have sampled on YouTube.

Symphony #3 was used to great effect in Scorsese's film Shutter Island.

Cello Concerto no. 1 is coming my way in the mail.

Threnody is probably his most famous piece from his avant-garde era.
I just watched that movie and was haunted by the effect that his music had on me at the time...worked wonderfully well in that movie.  I'll have to hear the whole work now and see how I like it on its own.

PD
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on October 20, 2021, 09:24:35 AM
Damn, that sucks, Ray. Have you tried acquiring it in this issue?

(https://img.discogs.com/zh2GqazAUAUGmpMQh9yi85qSQec=/fit-in/500x500/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-7060305-1432765999-1120.jpeg.jpg)

I'd send this one to you, but it's a part of a five-part series that I'm not about to break up. :) I also own that gold disc reissue, which is difficult to find, so I won't be parting with that one either. ;)

I see there's two of them on eBay for a fair price:

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/324663970600?hash=item4b977b0b28:g:pRcAAOSwQUFgMI-s (https://www.ebay.ca/itm/324663970600?hash=item4b977b0b28:g:pRcAAOSwQUFgMI-s)

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/203274999657?hash=item2f54225769:g:nzAAAOSwIihgGpFz (https://www.ebay.ca/itm/203274999657?hash=item2f54225769:g:nzAAAOSwIihgGpFz)

Thanks very much John.  I just purchased one of these.  :)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 20, 2021, 09:58:48 AM
Thanks very much John.  I just purchased one of these.  :)

Very nice, indeed. 8)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on October 21, 2021, 10:51:30 AM
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODA2MTAzOC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NzExNjE2MzJ9)

First listen to these works.  Royally impressed with the Magnificat - 1973-74.  It is still much in the vein of the experimental Penderecki, and here you have another instance of the Passacaglia theme that recurs numerous times in his other works, most markedly in his Symphony No. 3.  Although this work is not quite as spooky and alarming as Utrenja, it is still quite a harrowing piece!  :o

However, I can't say I was impressed with Kadisz (2009).  There were some good moments, but overall it didn't make much of an impact.

Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on October 21, 2021, 10:53:11 AM
I just watched that movie and was haunted by the effect that his music had on me at the time...worked wonderfully well in that movie.  I'll have to hear the whole work now and see how I like it on its own.

PD

Marvelous!  :)  That was my first exposure to the Penderecki symphony as well, via the film.
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 21, 2021, 08:05:13 PM
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODA2MTAzOC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NzExNjE2MzJ9)

First listen to these works.  Royally impressed with the Magnificat - 1973-74.  It is still much in the vein of the experimental Penderecki, and here you have another instance of the Passacaglia theme that recurs numerous times in his other works, most markedly in his Symphony No. 3.  Although this work is not quite as spooky and alarming as Utrenja, it is still quite a harrowing piece!  :o

However, I can't say I was impressed with Kadisz (2009).  There were some good moments, but overall it didn't make much of an impact.

Magnificat is a marvelous work. I especially like this Penderecki-led performance:

(https://i.scdn.co/image/ab67616d0000b273568192914c57670fdb43c317)
Title: Re: Krzysztof Penderecki (b. 1933)
Post by: OrchestralNut on October 22, 2021, 02:24:39 AM
Magnificat is a marvelous work. I especially like this Penderecki-led performance:

(https://i.scdn.co/image/ab67616d0000b273568192914c57670fdb43c317)

Yes, I also listened to that performance yesterday. I'd say they are both very good.