GMG Classical Music Forum

Wikipedia entry for Bernard Herrmann (1911–75) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Herrmann)

It would be nice to have a thread on this fellow to centralise any discussion. I have had the cantata Moby Dick on my radar for some time due to several mentions by GMG members (Vandermolen in particular, I believe), but so far the only full piece by him that I have heard is the opera Wuthering Heights.

It's a fine, moody piece with some enjoyable Peter Grimes-esque orchestral interludes, and less razzle-dazzle than I had been expecting. With a suitably atmospheric staging, this could make a sumptuous DVD. A promising start! I'll investigate more of his music in the next few days, and hopefully we have some more fans on board!

Quote from: Lethe on June 03, 2009, 08:44:37 AM
Wikipedia entry for Bernard Herrmann (1911–75) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Herrmann)

It would be nice to have a thread on this fellow to centralise any discussion. I have had the cantata Moby Dick on my radar for some time due to several mentions by GMG members (Vandermolen in particular, I believe), but so far the only full piece by him that I have heard is the opera Wuthering Heights.

It's a fine, moody piece with some enjoyable Peter Grimes-esque orchestral interludes, and less razzle-dazzle than I had been expecting. With a suitably atmospheric staging, this could make a sumptuous DVD. A promising start! I'll investigate more of his music in the next few days, and hopefully we have some more fans on board!

Well done, Sara!

His scoring for Psycho and North By Northwest (which may be all I know of his music) is expert, and value-added to the films.

The Symphony is superb :) I have it on an old Koch cd(Phoenix Symphony Orchestra/James Sedares) coupled with Schuman's New England Triptych. Should still be available.

Pity he didn't write more orchestral music.

Of the few Herrmann pieces I've heard so far, I've not heard any that I didn't like.  The CD below, with Salonen and the LA Phil, is not only a favorite Herrmann recording, but a fave recording, period.

(And thread title du jour, for sure.  ;D)

--Bruce

Argh, Bruce;  I don't know that I realized before that he'd scored Taxi Driver.  I'm not really keen to watch that flick again, but at some point I should, for purposes of paying attention to the score . . . .

I am about to display my massive Herrmann collection:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51D9RTN59YL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

You are welcome...  0:)

Of course, I must see Vertigo . . . which is the one briefly excerpted in Twelve Monkeys, I think.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 03, 2009, 09:28:51 AM
Of course, I must see Vertigo . . . which is the one briefly excerpted in Twelve Monkeys, I think.

Have you not seen Vertigo, Karl?  It is arguably my favorite Hitchcock film, and the score contributes a great deal to its power.

--Bruce

Quote from: bhodges on June 03, 2009, 09:58:50 AM
Have you not seen Vertigo, Karl?  It is arguably my favorite Hitchcock film, and the score contributes a great deal to its power.

Never in toto, Bruce . . . I've certainly seen the odd bit . . . .

just ordered this one...

(http://www.screenarchives.com/gifs/large/12466.gif)

Quote from: bhodges on June 03, 2009, 09:58:50 AM
Have you not seen Vertigo, Karl? It is arguably my favorite Hitchcock film, and the score contributes a great deal to its power.

Count me in!

Although the end is a bit ....
.... hush, maybe Karl doesn't want to know.

The nightmare section with James Stewart is really awesome, and so is Hermann's mesmerizing music!

Quote from: Marc on June 04, 2009, 11:47:08 AM
Count me in!

Although the end is a bit ....
.... hush, maybe Karl doesn't want to know.

No spoilers, dude!

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 04, 2009, 11:49:17 AM
No spoilers, dude!

Dude = inexperienced European or Asian citizen who moved to the Wild West without actually knowing what he was doing.
Synonyms: greenhorn, tenderfoot.

Of course, this is common knowledge to each and everyone. :)

Well Karl, surely you're a dude yourself, when Hitchcock's Vertigo is concerned! It's a classic, for heaven's sake!

Still, the end of this classic is a bit ..........

;D

Just listened to Moby Dick - wow, hehe, very blood and thunder. It reminds me a little of Prokofiev's Seven, They Are Seven at times. It has that mid-century impact to it. Also rather massively scored and with a huge sweep. I certainly don't expect something like this from the usually modest form of the cantata - it is rather more like a choral symphony. Gonna be listening to this one a lot more in future :)

Recently picked up some Herrmann on vinyl (as posted in the film music section):

(http://tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:rde1xb3ADDeo5M:http://www.soundtrackcollector.com/images/cd/large/Music_great_movie_Thrillers_PFS4173.jpg)  (http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~lestudio/photo_film/dec_4213.jpg)  (http://tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:eAGRYayPWlMevM:http://static.rateyourmusic.com/album_images/s268609.jpg)

Reading the title of this thread, I got vertigo until I looked north by northwest and saw the taxi driver with the sisters's torn curtains.  My temperature went to Fahrenheit 451, because the Egyptian is always letting the birds into the garden of evil.  That is the trouble with Harry, giving me a twisted nerve and no joy in the morning.  You couldn't say he was man who knew too much, but he was always the man in the gray flannel suit.  He told me the day the earth stood still we were on dangerous ground.  I thought he was psycho, because he is always talking about the naked and the dead for endless nights.  Perhaps that is why he likes his blue denim cape. Fear the wrong man, and it's alive.  Any citizen kane tell you that.

Quote from: Lethe on June 04, 2009, 12:27:10 PM
Just listened to Moby Dick - wow, hehe, very blood and thunder. It reminds me a little of Prokofiev's Seven, They Are Seven at times. It has that mid-century impact to it. Also rather massively scored and with a huge sweep. I certainly don't expect something like this from the usually modest form of the cantata - it is rather more like a choral symphony. Gonna be listening to this one a lot more in future :)

Where are you finding these CDs? Are you paying the extortionate prices that Amazon sellers seem to be charging?

At the risk of repeating myself(which I am doing ;D) Bernard Herrmann would have wanted you to have listened to his only Symphony as well as the admittedly excellent film music.

The Symphony was written in 1941 on commission from the New York Philharmonic and CBS-a prestigious commission for a 30 year old composer. The CBS Symphony Orchestra gave the first performance two hours before Herrmann's wife gave birth to a daughter :)

Herrmann tried to get Ormandy and the Philadelphia Orchestra to perform the splendidly neo-romantic piece but Ormandy wanted to slash 15 minutes out of the score...the great conductor had an unfortunate tendency to want such cuts in other works too.

Some reviews-

http://www.amazon.com/Herrmann-Symphony-Schuman-England-Triptych/dp/B000001SF8

Herrmann was a very fine conductor as well, a great anglophile and supporter of British composers like Richard Arnell(whilst the young
Arnell was living and working in New Yourk during the war).

Quote from: Dundonnell on June 04, 2009, 04:48:42 PM
At the risk of repeating myself(which I am doing ;D)

Oh, it's past risk, then  ;D

Quote from: Dundonnell on June 04, 2009, 04:48:42 PM
At the risk of repeating myself(which I am doing ;D) Bernard Herrmann would have wanted you to have listened to his only Symphony as well as the admittedly excellent film music.

The Symphony was written in 1941 on commission from the New York Philharmonic and CBS-a prestigious commission for a 30 year old composer. The CBS Symphony Orchestra gave the first performance two hours before Herrmann's wife gave birth to a daughter :)

Herrmann tried to get Ormandy and the Philadelphia Orchestra to perform the splendidly neo-romantic piece but Ormandy wanted to slash 15 minutes out of the score...the great conductor had an unfortunate tendency to want such cuts in other works too.

Some reviews-

http://www.amazon.com/Herrmann-Symphony-Schuman-England-Triptych/dp/B000001SF8

Herrmann was a very fine conductor as well, a great anglophile and supporter of British composers like Richard Arnell(whilst the young
Arnell was living and working in New Yourk during the war).

I can only see it on Amazon where it is ridiculously expensive...

Quote from: Guido on June 04, 2009, 05:03:35 PM
I can only see it on Amazon where it is ridiculously expensive...

If you are interested Guido.....let me know ;D

Quote from: Guido on June 04, 2009, 04:22:53 PM
Where are you finding these CDs? Are you paying the extortionate prices that Amazon sellers seem to be charging?

Demonoid* - I'm not often interested in paying new prices for secondhand CDs, let alone double or quadrouple. DLing these out of print discs that have put several composers on the map for me, meaning if a new recording or reissue of Moby Dick becomes available, I will buy it in a heartbeat. Weird how hopeless some labels are at capitalism. Make them available as downloads with linear notes (which has almost zero overhead fees after setup costs), and we will buy them. Goddamn it!

*There has been a lot of rare stuff uploaded recently - lots of American composers on the defunct Bay Cities label, etc.

Quote from: Catison on June 04, 2009, 02:04:23 PM
Reading the title of this thread, I got vertigo until I looked north by northwest and saw the taxi driver with the sisters's torn curtains.  My temperature went to Fahrenheit 451, because the Egyptian is always letting the birds into the garden of evil.  That is the trouble with Harry, giving me a twisted nerve and no joy in the morning.  You couldn't say he was man who knew too much, but he was always the man in the gray flannel suit.  He told me the day the earth stood still we were on dangerous ground.  I thought he was psycho, because he is always talking about the naked and the dead for endless nights.  Perhaps that is why he likes his blue denim cape. Fear the wrong man, and it's alive.  Any citizen kane tell you that.

;D This post took my breath away. Bravo!

Too much Hitchock not enough Herrmann on this thread  $:)  ;D

Right before Easter, the Minnesota Opera is offering a new production of Bernard Herrmann's opera Wuthering Heights:

http://www.mnopera.org/season/performances?module=performances&showid=1949 (http://www.mnopera.org/season/performances?module=performances&showid=1949)

Be there, or be a rhombus!   :o

We do indeed hope that a CD will be available!

Hopefully this will be the start of a general revival...

Another collection, non-Hitchcock, on CD
and I have the OOP? Koch 3-7225 recording of the Concerto Macabre from Hangover Square in my collection.

     Herrmann favorites of mine:

     The original (1959) opening and closing music for The Twilight Zone.

     The Day the Earth Stood Still (1951) which featured the first appearance of the amplified solid body bass.

     The Ghost and Mrs. Muir (1947)

     Fahrenheit 451 (1966)

     Jason and the Argonauts (1963)

     Mysterious Island (1961)
     

     

Heidi Waleson of the Wall Street Journal offered a review of Wuthering Heights, which was recently performed by the Minnesota Opera.

"The composer Bernard Herrmann (1911-1975) is best known for his atmospheric scores on such films as "Citizen Kane," "Vertigo," "Psycho" and "Taxi Driver," but he considered his only opera, "Wuthering Heights," completed in 1951, to be his masterwork. The opera was never performed in his lifetime, apparently because Herrmann refused to permit any cuts or alterations to its 3½ hours of music; it finally had one production in 1982 at the Portland Opera. This season, the Minnesota Opera mounted the piece as part of its multiyear New Works Initiative. Trimmed to just under three hours, including one intermission, the work comes off as an intriguing artifact by a composer who was clearly devoted to every one of the far too many notes that he wrote for it...

Herrmann's best work is in the lush and colorful orchestration, which powerfully conjures up the natural world that plays such an important role in the story—the changing seasons and the violent storms of the Yorkshire moors that symbolize Cathy and Heathcliff's turbulent bond.

The vocal writing is less persuasive, much of it a shapeless parlando that is merely a vehicle for the text. A few eloquent arias, like Cathy's "I have dreamt," advance the action and the character development, but others, like her husband Edgar's "Now art thou dear," in which he reads a poem out loud to her, are more like set pieces designed to give the singers a showcase. There are no multivoice ensembles, and even with the relatively fleet tempi adopted by conductor Michael Christie, the piece still feels too long, particularly in the first half. Ironically, it would have benefited from cinematic dramaturgy, a world whose constraints Herrmann was no doubt trying to escape...."

Waleson praises the singers and conductor for doing their best with what she obviously considers to be a lengthy mediocrity.

For the entire review:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703916004576271104170753020.html?mod=WSJ_ArtsEnt_LifestyleArtEnt_4 (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703916004576271104170753020.html?mod=WSJ_ArtsEnt_LifestyleArtEnt_4)

Thanks for that, Cato!

Great news: the Minnesota Opera is recording Wuthering Heights in HD. More information here (http://www.mnopera.org/files/content/files/2011-04-15_wutheringheightsinhd_pr.pdf), from the opera company's website.

--Bruce

Quote from: Brewski on April 21, 2011, 07:18:59 AM
Great news: the Minnesota Opera is recording Wuthering Heights in HD. More information here (http://www.mnopera.org/files/content/files/2011-04-15_wutheringheightsinhd_pr.pdf), from the opera company's website.

--Bruce

Thanks to Bruce Brewski! And you can check out small excerpts here:

http://www.mnopera.org/watchlisten#tab1&vid=3 (http://www.mnopera.org/watchlisten#tab1&vid=3)

The "On the Moors" staging strikes me as something out of the Pre-Raphaelites.

e.g.

(http://www.arthistoryspot.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/La-Belle-Dame-Sans-Merci.jpg)

This is the site to be, with some excellent articles:


http://www.bernardherrmann.org/

Herrmann's 100th birthday has generated an article in the Wall Street Journal today (June 29, 2011).

See:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303339904576403661596180184.html?KEYWORDS=Herrmann (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303339904576403661596180184.html?KEYWORDS=Herrmann)

Excerpts:

"Thus Herrmann became America's greatest film composer not on the basis of a few extraordinary pieces, but for an unsurpassed and complex body of work in the service of story. No other composer so consistently enriched the audience's understanding of a character's emotional and psychological state.

"That was his great skill—his understanding of the psychology of character," the film composer Howard Shore said. "

And:

"As a composer for hire, Herrmann's unflagging belief in his own opinions about music served him as well as his supreme skill at composition and orchestration. He once told William S. Paley, the president of CBS for whom he worked for 15 years starting in 1933: "You're assuming the public is as ignorant about music as you."

"He was not a collegial guy," said (Composer John) Williams, who worked with Herrmann in Universal Studios' TV department. "He was contemptuous of a certain kind of populism. He had his strong points of vision and had no truck for people he felt didn't have integrity in their work. But with me he was very kind."

And:

"Herrmann was nominated for an Academy Award for "Kane" and "The Devil and Daniel Webster," winning the award for the latter—his sole Oscar. With those two works, he established himself as a visionary film composer—with a formidable and prickly personality. In 1942, he demanded his name be removed from the credits to Welles's "The Magnificent Ambersons" after RKO famously re-edited and butchered the film."

Nice. Knew there was some cosmic reason I was revisiting North by Northwest, Vertigo & Psycho this year!

I came across this by chance: an arrangement for solo piano of parts of various movie scores, including Sisters (one of the most under-rated scores Herrmann ever produced).

Here is an example of Vertigo:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003P9SZ2S/ref=dm_mu_dp_trk4 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003P9SZ2S/ref=dm_mu_dp_trk4)

I was not all that impressed with the arrangements as heard from the little snippets (they sounded awfully thin), but in case anyone is interested...

Hi, this is my first posting so be gentle with me!

I remember John Amis relating how, when a composition student asked Herrmann for some tips, he snarled "When the composer's name comes up in the titles, go into the major key!" True or not, it fits in with the character we have been handed down.

This new release looks very interesting!  I have the old Unicorn CD of 'Moby Dick' with Herrmann conducting the 'National Philharmonic Orchestra' - but such an exciting work deserves a modern recording.  I hope that the same forces go on to record Bernard Herrmann's ' Symphony No.1'.
[asin]B005JA9U3E[/asin]

Quote from: vandermolen on October 06, 2011, 12:49:12 PM
I hope that the same forces go on to record Bernard Herrmann's ' Symphony No.1'.

Big time! That would be a timely release too, coinciding with both Chandos's traversal of Rózsa's concert music, and also the Havergal Brian revival, whose craggy music has some similarities with Herrmann's symphony.

Thanks for the heads up on this one, Van!

I own both recordings of Herrmann's "Moby Dick" cantata and here are my impressions. 

Herrmann's cantata demonstrates his early influences of Vaughan Williams and Britten at their most austere. To be compared with these titans of English music is a good thing. As one would expect from anything by Herrmann, there is atmosphere and moodiness aplenty. The music is dark and troubled and this new Chandos CD is very well recorded with some lovely performances.  In general, this recording is polished with deep bass and rich sonorities but at some instances, the strings sound a bit thin, and the brass lack the bite that Herrmann's own recording from the late 1960s had.  Perhaps Herrmann's style of conducting lends itself to being over the top in a way that we have become accustomed to in his music and when it is played "straight", it feels somewhat restrained. The Chandos percussion and winds sound excellent. "Ishmael – It was a clear steel blue day" and the monologues of Ahab are particularly beautiful.  Comparing this recording to the composers own demonstrates how skilled a conductor he was.  It does inhabit the same sound world of some of his contemporary scores such as the masterpiece, "Citizen Kane" and his Symphony. It would have been nice if Chandos included a performance of some other rare concert piece by Herrmann such as his delicate early work, "La Belle Dame Sans Merci". From a compositional point of view, Herrmann's piece is at its best during the somber moments. The longer movements seem a bit disjointed lacking a sense of overall structure.  Herrmann here reminds me of Vaughan Williams somewhat earlier cantatas such as "Sancta Civitas" but the Vaughan Williams has more structural clarity.

To summarize, it is hard to beat the composers own version with its intensity however the Herrmann performance featured clipping and shows its age. This Chandos version is the technical winner though lacking some of the intensity those familiar with the original recording would expect.  As a more mellow performance, this newer recording succeeds very well in the more tranquil moments that are played dramatically and recorded beautifully. Those who can't get enough Herrmann will enjoy this CD but will probably keep around Herrmann's own recording for its boldness despite its clipping. 

I listened to the new Chandos recording the other night.

I am interested in your comments about the "early influences of Vaughan Wiliams and Britten". I agree that I hear both composers in the work but I wonder whether Herrmann-who wrote 'Moby Dick' between 1936 and 1938-was influenced by Britten or influenced Britten. How much early Britten would Herrmann actually have heard before 1938? Britten apparently attended a New York Phil. performance under Barbirolli. I just wonder if the influence was as much the other way?

Interesting question, Colin... And Karim, thanks for sharing your impressions!

Quote from: Dundonnell on October 08, 2011, 08:58:26 AM
I listened to the new Chandos recording the other night.

I am interested in your comments about the "early influences of Vaughan Wiliams and Britten". I agree that I hear both composers in the work but I wonder whether Herrmann-who wrote 'Moby Dick' between 1936 and 1938-was influenced by Britten or influenced Britten. How much early Britten would Herrmann actually have heard before 1938? Britten apparently attended a New York Phil. performance under Barbirolli. I just wonder if the influence was as much the other way?

Wow, I didn't realize that.  Interesting point! 

Many thanks to all for their comments: let's hope that Wuthering Heights might also be in the works for a new CD!

Recently I obtained the original soundtrack of On Dangerous Ground made by Film Score Monthly (the CD is out-of-print unfortunately), and I must say this score ranks with Herrmann's best.  One hears premonitions of Vertigo, North By Northwest, and even Psycho in the music.

The CD came from tracks, some of which were damaged, meaning that a revolving hiss or scratchiness is sometimes present: for most of them, however, (especially the rousing "Hunt" tracks, the sound is very good, although monaural.  With some tinkering a sound system can bring out the orchestra.

The movie I saw many moons ago, and recall the score being a little buried: it is a Nicholas Ray movie about a rogue detective sent away from the city who becomes involved in a murder investigation in the "far north" of New York state.

Anyway, SOMEBODY please record the score in this century!

Quote from: Cato on February 02, 2012, 10:53:58 AM
Recently I obtained the original soundtrack of On Dangerous Ground made by Film Score Monthly (the CD is out-of-print unfortunately), and I must say this score ranks with Herrmann's best.  One hears premonitions of Vertigo, North By Northwest, and even Psycho in the music.

The CD came from tracks, some of which were damaged, meaning that a revolving hiss or scratchiness is sometimes present: for most of them, however, (especially the rousing "Hunt" tracks, the sound is very good, although monaural.  With some tinkering a sound system can bring out the orchestra.

The movie I saw many moons ago, and recall the score being a little buried: it is a Nicholas Ray movie about a rogue detective sent away from the city who becomes involved in a murder investigation in the "far north" of New York state.

Anyway, SOMEBODY please record the score in this century!

That one has been on my wish list for some time.  I used to subscribe to FSM until they went digital.  Some of their cds are amazing and can fetch high sums after they go OOP.  I might want to pull the trigger on this one.

Quote from: Bogey on February 03, 2012, 07:04:22 AM
That one has been on my wish list for some time.  I used to subscribe to FSM until they went digital.  Some of their cds are amazing and can fetch high sums after they go OOP.  I might want to pull the trigger on this one.

If you are a Herrmann fan, this is something you will most probably be delighted to have, even with the monaural sound and the noise from some of the damaged originals.

It also has short outtakes of Herrmann talking to the orchestra: classic nasal New Yawk accent!   8)

Quote from: Cato on February 03, 2012, 08:29:24 AM
If you are a Herrmann fan, this is something you will most probably be delighted to have, even with the monaural sound and the noise from some of the damaged originals.

It also has short outtakes of Herrmann talking to the orchestra: classic nasal New Yawk accent!   8)

Thanks!  Just snapped one up off of Ebay.  Only one seller, but less than the Amazon group.  Looks as if the availability is starting to dry up a bit, so thought it prudent to order now.

Love this shot of Benny  and Hitch....may have to make it my avatar for a bit.

(http://www.bernardherrmann.org/legacy/site/articles/misc/torncurtain/hitch_herrmann_1.jpg)

My brother sent me this Los Angeles Philharmonic performance of The Death Hunt from On Dangerous Ground:

http://www.youtube.com/v/lqL5gEoXWBk

Quote from: Cato on February 06, 2012, 06:09:38 PM
My brother sent me this Los Angeles Philharmonic performance of The Death Hunt from On Dangerous Ground:

http://www.youtube.com/v/lqL5gEoXWBk

That was cool!

We have written NOTHING since February here???!!!   :o

I have just received the French performance of Herrmann's opera Wuthering Heights.

So far I have only had time to hear the opening CD but was very happy with the sound and performance quality.

[asin]B005NNJLV8[/asin]

Available for c. $30.00 from a British seller.  I received it within 2 weeks.

Les Hauts de Hurlevent, I like the title even better en français.

A subtle touch which escaped me the first few times I watched Twelve Monkeys: even when Cole and Railly are no longer actually watching Vertigo, the soundtrack continues to play Herrmann's score from the Hitchcock film.

Quote from: karlhenning on September 06, 2012, 09:55:12 AM
A subtle touch which escaped me the first few times I watched Twelve Monkeys: even when Cole and Railly are no longer actually watching Vertigo, the soundtrack continues to play Herrmann's score from the Hitchcock film.

Okay, so I need to hit the library and find Twelve Monkeys!   ;D

I have just listened to CD 2 of Wuthering Heights: again, very nice!  The ending of Act II is not to be missed, and Act III (so far) has some very fine moments.

I should admit that I am concentrating more on what the orchestra is doing, and on the music itself, rather than on the words.  A second hearing will be done with more attention to the text.

[asin]B005NNJLV8[/asin]

From a Wall Street Journal article about "producer" George Martin and the Beatles:

Quote"In June 1965, Mr. Martin launched his rock-classical experiments, beginning with "Yesterday." "We had never done anything like that before—and no one else had either. When I first suggested adding a string quartet, Paul [McCartney] grimaced and said, 'I don't want Mantovani, thank you.' I said, 'It doesn't have to be like that—we can be more clinical. We can use a baroque string quartet.'"

When "Eleanor Rigby" was slated for recording a year later, Mr. McCartney pushed for strings. "My approach was greatly influenced by Bernard Herrmann and his film score for 'Psycho,'" Mr. Martin said. "He had a way of making violins sound fierce. That inspired me to have the strings play short notes forcefully, giving the song a nice punch."

See:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444327204577617182988336066.html?mod=WSJ_ArtsEnt_LifestyleArtEnt_4 (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444327204577617182988336066.html?mod=WSJ_ArtsEnt_LifestyleArtEnt_4)

Quote from: Cato on September 06, 2012, 12:07:41 PM
I have just listened to CD 2 of Wuthering Heights: again, very nice!  The ending of Act II is not to be missed, and Act III (so far) has some very fine moments.

I should admit that I am concentrating more on what the orchestra is doing, and on the music itself, rather than on the words.  A second hearing will be done with more attention to the text.

[asin]B005NNJLV8[/asin]

They release some interesting stuff. I bought their live recording of Pizzetti's opera,Fedra (also Montpelier). Great sound,very little,if any,in the way of annoying coughing or feet clumping about! And Pizzetti's opulent,symphonic approach to opera kept me listening,despite the absence of an english libretto. And very cheap too! (Around twelve quid for a new release;wish they were all that low!) Anyway,Bernard Herrmann in French sounds pretty cool! I liked the Unicorn Lp version,and the prospect of Herrmanns lush orchestration in digital sound quality is VERY tempting!

Quote from: cilgwyn on September 12, 2012, 03:13:05 PM
Anyway,Bernard Herrmann in French sounds pretty cool! I liked the Unicorn Lp version,and the prospect of Herrmanns lush orchestration in digital sound quality is VERY tempting!

I wondered about that when I bought it, but no, everything is in English.

About the rest of the 3rd CD with the opera's conclusion I have not written anything: as with the other parts, the music is evocative of the story, and the death of the heroine is exquisitely handled.  This is not Wagner nor is it the Herrmann of the fantasy movies like Jason and the Argonauts.  The music is rather understated, and large loud orchestral sections are rare.

The performance is very fine: and yes, the audience does not intrude at all.

Sorry Cato,I think that can of Stella was colouring my memory a little. It's a long time since I heard those Lps,to be honest (and I think I have them somewhere,but no turntable! :( ). Now I remember it a little more clearly :-[ the orchestration was very restrained;although I seem to remember that there were one or two purely orchestral passages where Herrmann's cinematic credentials were evoked. I also remember that I enjoyed every moment of it & found the conclusion quite moving!

I suppose I'm glad it's in english.I was preparing myself for a Wuthering Heights in sexy sounding French! ;D

Quote from: Cato on September 12, 2012, 06:46:43 AM
From a Wall Street Journal article about "producer" George Martin and the Beatles:

See:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444327204577617182988336066.html?mod=WSJ_ArtsEnt_LifestyleArtEnt_4 (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444327204577617182988336066.html?mod=WSJ_ArtsEnt_LifestyleArtEnt_4)

Maybe Macca grimaced at George Martin's suggestion that the string quartet writing for "Yesterday" had aught to do with the Baroque.

The Accord set of Herrmann's 'Les Hauts de Hurlevent is quite a bit more expensive than their Pizzetti Fedra set!! Very tempting indeed! But this is one temptress that is going to have to wait! :(

Quote from: cilgwyn on September 13, 2012, 06:12:16 AM
The Accord set of Herrmann's 'Les Hauts de Hurlevent is quite a bit more expensive than their Pizzetti Fedra set!! Very tempting indeed! But this is one temptress that is going to have to wait! :(

I saw that - suddenly - the set is no longer available in the U.S. via Amazon!!!  I am happy that I ordered it when I did: it came from a company in the U.K.  And yes, suddenly Amazon.UK has it for more than - Oy!  ???   - 30 Pounds, more than double what I paid back in August.

Good catch, Cato!

Quote from: karlhenning on September 13, 2012, 08:47:27 AM
Good catch, Cato!

Actually I have been lucky twice this summer: somebody was selling the famous movie version of War and Peace directed by Sergei Bondarchuk on a 5-DVD set for $10.00...and for months the only ones available were over $100.00 !

I thought it had to be a mistake in zeroes, but no: ten bucks snagged it!   0:)

(http://www.pictures.martysaudiophilevinylcollection.com/Soundtracks/slides/herrmann-conducts%20great%20british%20film%20scores.jpg)

Starting today's music with this LP.  The Phase 4 Stereo sounds excellent on my system.  The vinyl is fairly heavy and holds fast.  Except for the Oliver Twist, I am not familiar with any of the works here, so the music will have to stand on its own, which it seems to be doing very nicely.

Yipeeeeeeeeee! :) I finally secured the Koch cd of Hermann's Symphony at a reasonable price! :) Unlike the one I obtained a couple of years ago,this one doesn't seem to freeze up. The Unicorn is too pricey for me! :( Anyway,this performance sounds pretty good. Smashing sound quality,too! If only Koch hadn't gone. They were an enterprising label.
Hermann's a culty sort of movie composer,and a very good one too. I'm surprised a new recording hasn't been released!

Having said that;while I enjoyed the Herrmann symphony,I'm not sure if the Schuman 'fill-up' was a good idea. The distinctiveness & concentration of Schuman's ideas do somehow leave the Herrmann standing...........as much as I really DO love it!! :( ;D Maybe an ALL Herrmann cd would have been a better idea?

My friend passed this one on to me:

(http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/5198/front500n.jpg)

(http://i41.tinypic.com/1182hq8.jpg)

Bernard Herrmann's unused score for Torn Curtain is the subject of a Wall Street Journal article:

QuoteBernard Herrmann's music for Alfred Hitchcock's "Torn Curtain"—a harrowing and haunting score—sundered what many believe is the greatest director-composer collaboration in Hollywood history. Pressured by Universal Pictures to deliver pop-oriented music in tune with the times, Hitchcock demanded that Herrmann eschew his "old pattern" of symphonic composition and deliver '60s "beat and rhythm." Incorrigibly independent as ever, Herrmann composed a dense, brutal, unapologetically symphonic score powered by 12 flutes, 16 horns, nine trombones, two tubas, double timpani, eight cellos and eight basses. He also, as in "Psycho," composed an electrifying murder cue even though Hitchcock specified no music. Normally averse to unpleasantness, Hitchcock came unannounced to a recording session at Goldwyn Studios, listened to the Prelude, and angrily dismissed Herrmann in front of his orchestra colleagues, who cheered the score even as Hitchcock renounced it. The two never spoke again....

...With the Herrmann score, the film's central characters, secret agent Michael Armstrong and his lover, Sarah Sherman, move furtively through the film as if pursued by the composer's icy brass unisons and stalking chords. The moments of lyricism we get in other Herrmann-Hitchcock films are absent. The closest we get to melody are ominous bass and woodwind lines in cues like "The Formula" and "The Blackboard," moments reminiscent of Shostakovich, whom Hitchcock tried to land for his next Cold War picture, "Topaz." (Needless to say, the Soviet authorities were not cooperative.)

Despite the exotic orchestration—Herrmann promised that "the sound of 12 flutes will be terrifying"—there is something fundamental about this score. The most disturbing cue is the one Hitchcock explicitly forbade for the killing of the Soviet agent Gromek, an explosion of rage and violence in the timpani and lower brass, a premonition of Herrmann's gathering storm with Hitchcock. Equally daring is the quiet music where Herrmann strips his huge orchestra down to intimate chamber ensembles: the queasy atonal sequence with agitated flutes depicting the cat-and-mouse movements of Michael and Gromek, or the sinister dialogue between brass and basses in "The Search."...

In the one surviving music note from Hitchcock to Herrmann, Hitchcock requested for the Prelude "an exciting, arresting, and rhythmic piece of music whose function would be to immediately rivet the audience's attention." Riveting it certainly is, but a '60s beat is nowhere to be found. Ironically, Addison's replacement prelude, a glum waltz, doesn't have it either, nor do any of his cues....

See:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-different-way-to-master-suspense-1469213842 (http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-different-way-to-master-suspense-1469213842)

Quote from: Cato on July 24, 2016, 03:12:40 AM
Bernard Herrmann's unused score for Torn Curtain is the subject of a Wall Street Journal article:

Thanks for that. It inspired a mp3 download of the album conducted by Elmer Bernstein. The Prelude is smashing (and Sacre-like  8) )

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/feb2016/Torn%20Curtain.jpg)


Sarge

Can anyone comment on the clarinet quintet "souvenirs de voyage"? Is this also based on film music and if so which one?

Quote from: Jo498 on July 24, 2016, 08:49:54 AM
Can anyone comment on the clarinet quintet "souvenirs de voyage"? Is this also based on film music and if so which one?

I have a recording. The music is late Romantic, very lyrical (perhaps a few moments of schmaltz too). All that the notes say about the origin of the piece is that it was composed shortly after he'd traveled from Cali to England. No mention that it derived from film music (although I can imagine a bittersweet romance it could accompany).

Sarge

Quote from: Jo498 on July 24, 2016, 08:49:54 AM
Can anyone comment on the clarinet quintet "souvenirs de voyage"? Is this also based on film music and if so which one?

It has a melancholy air, not dissonant like the Psycho score: perhaps closer in atmosphere to the score for Brian de Palma's Obsession.

Quote from: Cato on July 24, 2016, 03:12:40 AM
Bernard Herrmann's unused score for Torn Curtain is the subject of a Wall Street Journal article:



See:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-different-way-to-master-suspense-1469213842 (http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-different-way-to-master-suspense-1469213842)

I know this is an old post, but I know someone who was at the session of torn curtain and has a different take.  She said Bernie was called into the booth to discuss a cue with Hitch who was munching on English snack food (I forget what it was but something like french fries) with pieces all over his gut.  Herrmann walked out to the stage and said the fat guy wants us to try something different not realizing the recording mics were broadcasting into the booth where Hitch heard it on the live mics.  Bernie was called back into the booth and after a few nervous minutes, the orchestra was told they were unexpectedly done for the day and will be notified when the next session will be.  There never was another session and Bernie and Hitch never worked together again.  From her story, this was not a creative difference, but two major egos having a personal issue that resulted in the end of one of the greatest collaborative success stories in Hollywood history.  Since she was in the room, I believe her version.

Quote from: relm1 on March 11, 2017, 04:19:54 PM

I know this is an old post, but I know someone who was at the session of torn curtain and has a different take.  She said Bernie was called into the booth to discuss a cue with Hitch who was munching on English snack food (I forget what it was but something like french fries) with pieces all over his gut.  Herrmann walked out to the stage and said the fat guy wants us to try something different not realizing the recording mics were broadcasting into the booth where Hitch heard it on the live mics.  Bernie was called back into the booth and after a few nervous minutes, the orchestra was told they were unexpectedly done for the day and will be notified when the next session will be.  There never was another session and Bernie and Hitch never worked together again.  From her story, this was not a creative difference, but two major egos having a personal issue that resulted in the end of one of the greatest collaborative success stories in Hollywood history.  Since she was in the room, I believe her version.

Very interesting and has the ring of truth about it. I love Herrmann's music but he was clearly a very difficult person to work with from what I have read and seen, especially as he got older. The biography 'A Heart at Fire's Center' about Herrmann is excellent. Years ago there was a great TV documentary about Herrmann but sadly never repeated.

Quote from: Cato on September 13, 2012, 08:44:36 AM
I saw that - suddenly - the set is no longer available in the U.S. via Amazon!!!  I am happy that I ordered it when I did: it came from a company in the U.K.  And yes, suddenly Amazon.UK has it for more than - Oy!  ???   - 30 Pounds, more than double what I paid back in August.

Did you like the opera? I had the Lp set for a while. I bought it from a market stall. It was ex Swansea Library,I believe;but in good condition. Later,I was shocked to see the prices for the s/h cds. The Unicorns are some of the ones affected by bronzing,though! I quite liked the opera. The bits for orchestra alone were very filmic,as one might expect. Quite enjoyable,though. But I can see (hear?) why it hasn't caught on. And not just because it's traditionally tonal.

...then there's this, from 1935

https://www.youtube.com/v/bXXN9rCVadg

Quote from: relm1 on March 11, 2017, 04:19:54 PM
I know this is an old post, but I know someone who was at the session of torn curtain and has a different take.  She said Bernie was called into the booth to discuss a cue with Hitch who was munching on English snack food (I forget what it was but something like french fries) with pieces all over his gut.  Herrmann walked out to the stage and said the fat guy wants us to try something different not realizing the recording mics were broadcasting into the booth where Hitch heard it on the live mics.  Bernie was called back into the booth and after a few nervous minutes, the orchestra was told they were unexpectedly done for the day and will be notified when the next session will be.  There never was another session and Bernie and Hitch never worked together again.  From her story, this was not a creative difference, but two major egos having a personal issue that resulted in the end of one of the greatest collaborative success stories in Hollywood history.  Since she was in the room, I believe her version.

Illustrative of the classic caution:  Just because a thought occurs to you, doesn't mean you have to give it voice.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 13, 2017, 05:39:40 AM
Illustrative of the classic caution:  Just because a thought occurs to you, doesn't mean you have to give it voice.

Yes.  Bernie was known to have a very big mouth and I'm sure it frequently got him in trouble.

Quote from: relm1 on March 13, 2017, 06:17:26 AM
Yes.  Bernie was known to have a very big mouth and I'm sure it frequently got him in trouble.

And it isn't as if he were somewhere he ought not to have expected mics to be live.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 13, 2017, 08:24:38 AM
And it isn't as if he were somewhere he ought not to have expected mics to be live.

Did you hear the strange audio interview with him in 1970 (during his self imposed exile from Hollywood) http://www.filmmusicsociety.org/news_events/features/2006/041006.html ?  You get a sense of a bizarre personality...a man child full of whiny tantrums and instability.  Meanwhile, he still had a lot of great music in him.  His then wife was so much younger then him and he must have been a real challenge to deal with.  Herrmann was 57 when he married his third wife, Norma Shepard who was three decades younger but far more mature!!

Quote from: cilgwyn on March 12, 2017, 05:30:02 AM
Did you like the opera? I had the Lp set for a while. I bought it from a market stall. It was ex Swansea Library,I believe;but in good condition. Later,I was shocked to see the prices for the s/h cds. The Unicorns are some of the ones affected by bronzing,though! I quite liked the opera. The bits for orchestra alone were very filmic,as one might expect. Quite enjoyable,though. But I can see (hear?) why it hasn't caught on. And not just because it's traditionally tonal.

Yes, it does have its moments: its emotional range would seem to be perfect for the composer of the Psycho score, but the latter is superior to the opera.  And so the question could be posed: is it possible Herrmann needed the visual element in some way?  Would he have done better if Wuthering Heights were a movie to be scored?

Quote from: Monsieur Croche on March 12, 2017, 10:10:44 PM
...then there's this, from 1935

https://www.youtube.com/v/bXXN9rCVadg

Speaking of the composer of the Psycho score, no visual stimulus was needed for this masterpiece!

Quote from: relm1 on March 13, 2017, 04:07:45 PM
Did you hear the strange audio interview with him in 1970 (during his self imposed exile from Hollywood) http://www.filmmusicsociety.org/news_events/features/2006/041006.html ?  You get a sense of a bizarre personality...a man child full of whiny tantrums and instability.  Meanwhile, he still had a lot of great music in him.  His then wife was so much younger then him and he must have been a real challenge to deal with.  Herrmann was 57 when he married his third wife, Norma Shepard who was three decades younger but far more mature!!

Thanks for the link!

When you go through three wives, it would seem that there must be something wrong with you...or you have severe problems in judging personalities...or maybe both!   If neither of those truly apply, I suppose it is possible that one could suffer some unusually bad luck.

The impression of instability and immaturity probably explains the marital problems.  Nevertheless, Herrmann undoubtedly had a great talent despite his quirks.

In the early 1970's, Brian de Palma wrote an article about Herrmann called Murder by Moog: he took Herrmann's advice on various things, although admits to being skeptical when Herrmann told him that - after seeing the opening of the movie - a musical idea using synthesizers had come to him.  Herrmann's fee was the largest part of the movie's budget!

The usual story about Torn Curtain is that Hitchcock came in and saw the highly idiosyncratic orchestra (e.g. 10 flutes) and fired Herrmann for obviously not acquiescing to the studio's "hit-song" demand.

I remember that during the old TV documentary Herrmann talked about meeting Charles Ives whom he idolised. He was conducting a work by Ives and asked the composer for some advice about a passage. Ives said 'just add in something of your own' showing a total lack of self-importance.

Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on June 30, 2017, 05:09:17 AM
To start, the Vertigo score will forever stick with me, such a powerful score. Psycho? sure, North By Northwest, Taxi Driver, etc.

He's done some good Noirs too, overall a deserved film legend and a cool concert composer in his own right. I remember picking up one of his symphonies at one point and being thrilled how he carried over his epic, psychological, cinematic style to the symphony form.

Yep, I think that Vertigo score sticks in my mind even stronger than the movie itself (though I can't possibly forget it)  :)

Do you know the score for On Dangerous Ground ?

https://www.youtube.com/v/Fq1Uy2OZ1ug

The entire score - original soundtrack - is available in a Mono and semi-damaged state: it includes Herrmann talking with the orchestra.  The Noo Yawk accent is very thick indeed!

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51X9jvjmAxL._SL500_SY300_.jpg (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51X9jvjmAxL._SL500_SY300_.jpg)

I happened to see this anecdote on IMDB: from the information about Brian De Palma's Obsession

Quote   

Composer Bernard Herrmann became infatuated with Geneviève Bujold after seeing her performance in an early cut of "Obsession". His feelings were heightened by Bujold's surprise visit to the soundtrack recording sessions in London in July 1975, the only time the two met in person. Herrmann's friend Charles Gerhardt recalled, "As she spoke to Benny in a heavy French accent I could tell he was about to get the hanky out. She told him of all the trouble she'd had with Cliff Robertson because he spent all his time in makeup and didn't make their love scenes meaningful. She said, 'Mr. Herrmann, he wouldn't make love to me - but you made love to me with your music'. And Benny started to cry. He would tell that story over and over at dinner, and start crying again every time". After Herrmann's death five months later, his widow found a photo of Bujold in his wallet.

:

This came across my screen today unexpectedly:


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71VxhAKKdpL._SL600_.jpg)



Here is the opening of the work - with links to other movements -  on You Tube:


https://www.youtube.com/v/ob5SrjwvG9o&list=OLAK5uy_kRVOZ5DYSAyRR9Lr-oLJLlBvfw4gUL25o

most interesting.

I just received that disc. Hope to play it fully today.
Have been playing this as well:
(//)

Quote from: Cato on December 21, 2020, 02:15:57 PM
This came across my screen today unexpectedly:


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71VxhAKKdpL._SL600_.jpg)



Here is the opening of the work - with links to other movements -  on You Tube:


https://www.youtube.com/v/ob5SrjwvG9o&list=OLAK5uy_kRVOZ5DYSAyRR9Lr-oLJLlBvfw4gUL25o

Herrmann's Whitman has an "Americana" sound related to the Citizen Kane and The Devil and Daniel Webster scores.  The text uses Whitman poems, but is semi-wartime propaganda: it is spoken, not sung, not Schoenbergian Sprechgesang.  It has some compelling sections. 


The essay accompanying the CD said that there are a total of 21 such radio dramas for which Herrmann provided music.  It would have been nice to have more of those, rather than another version of his chamber work and of Psycho.  But perhaps the music is not extant, or the funds for reviving them were not available.

My brother tells me that today is Bernard Herrmann's birthday!

And there is a birthday present of sorts in the works: new recordings of the complete On Dangerous Ground, one of Herrmann's greatest achievements!

Quote

ANNOUNCEMENT : It's official ON DANGEROUS GROUND and THE MAN WHO KNEW TOO MUCH are the next re-recording projects from William Stromberg and Intrada via kick starter.
... Following on our continuing series of successful re-recordings of film music with Maestro William T. Stromberg on the podium and myself tapping him on the shoulder every time we want more French horns in bar 27, we're readying the scores and parts to two incredible scores Herrmann scored in the fifties: Alfred Hitchcock's The Man Who Knew Too Much (1956) and (Nicholas Ray's ) On Dangerous Ground (1951). Only a brief portion of the Hitchcock score has been previously recorded,

On Dangerous Ground of course features the ferocious "Death Hunt" which we'll be doing replete with eight horns, six trumpets and trombones and two tubas! In balance are the numerous lovely passages for solo viola d'amore and strings. All-in-all an incredible array of Herrmann music.

We'll post the official Kickstarter goal and launch here in just a few days as we complete the session line-up requirements for this extraordinary recording event. We've got a nice track record with this series, thanks to the support from all of you!

This came via a FaceBook page from William Stromberg.

https://www.facebook.com/william.stromberg.96 (https://www.facebook.com/william.stromberg.96)

Zowie!

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ZMQAAOSwP2hicYD1/s-l500.jpg)

Quote from: Roy Bland on May 20, 2022, 05:05:45 AM
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ZMQAAOSwP2hicYD1/s-l500.jpg)

Interesting conductor and orchestra!


Many thanks for the tip!

Vertigo excerpts from the Concertgebouw.

https://youtu.be/v/pnntZbaN_vk

Quote from: Wanderer on June 23, 2022, 06:27:27 AM

Vertigo excerpts from the Concertgebouw.

https://www.youtube.com/v/pnntZbaN_vk

Fixed it for you!

Excellent performance, but one expects excellence from the Concertgebouw Orchestra!  0:)

Quote from: Cato on June 24, 2022, 06:13:38 AM
Fixed it for you!

Excellent performance, but one expects excellence from the Concertgebouw Orchestra!  0:)

Thank you, Cato! 😎

I wanted to share this because it struck me how excellently it is performed - the music being among my favourite film scores. I do hope there will be a recording issued out of this concert (which, seemingly, also included excerpts from Star Wars and Korngold's The Sea Hawk, videos available at the Concertgebouw's youtube channel).

Quote from: Cato on May 18, 2022, 03:19:08 PM

And there is a birthday present of sorts in the works: new recordings of the complete On Dangerous Ground, one of Herrmann's greatest achievements!

This came via a FaceBook page from William Stromberg.

https://www.facebook.com/william.stromberg.96 (https://www.facebook.com/william.stromberg.96)

Conductor William Stromberg has reported that the project to record the entire score for On Dangerous Ground has a green light! 

The recording sessions are scheduled for January/February 2023.  I assume that the CD will follow by the summer (?).

If you have not seen the movie, it is worth your time: it has Ida Lupino and Robert Ryan as the stars, the latter as a burned-out, Los Angeles "cop on the edge," who has a tendency to beat confessions out of suspects.  Some reviewers have said this is the first movie to have that behavior as a major theme.

The new recording of the soundtrack to On Dangerous Ground is now on sale!

William Stromberg, the conductor, has a taste of it here:

https://www.facebook.com/william.stromberg.96/videos/914108309837891 (https://www.facebook.com/william.stromberg.96/videos/914108309837891)


Available tomorrow from Intrada:

https://store.intrada.com/s.nl/it.A/id.12676/.f?sc=13&category=-113 (https://store.intrada.com/s.nl/it.A/id.12676/.f?sc=13&category=-113)

On Dangerous Ground - the complete soundtrack - is now available via Amazon in a new recording.

On Dangerous Ground (https://www.amazon.com/Man-Knew-Much-Dangerous-Ground/dp/B0C2SJ1V3T/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1OT868LFM1OY2&keywords=On+Dangerous+Ground+Stromberg&qid=1684271363&s=music&sprefix=on+dangerous+ground+stromberg%2Cpopular%2C135&sr=1-1)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81yfwX-LemL._SL1500_.jpg)

The soundtrack for The Man Who Knew Too Much is also on the CD.

Not cheap: $27.99 ! 

Bernard Herrmann's On Dangerous Ground, as mentioned earlier, has been given a new recording.

Here is the famous Death Hunt along with the powerful ending, which is usually omitted in other performances.

William Stromberg and The Royal Scottish National Orchestra:

Quote from: Cato on May 23, 2023, 12:54:27 PMBernard Herrmann's On Dangerous Ground, as mentioned earlier, has been given a new recording.

Here is the famous Death Hunt along with the powerful ending, which is usually omitted in other performances.

William Stromberg and The Royal Scottish National Orchestra:

I haven't heard this YouTube version just the "sample" you get on music sale websites.  The basic tempo is notably slower than the famous Gerhardt.  I'm guessing this new version is more "authentic" tempo-wise but gosh isn't the Gerhardt more viscerally exciting?  I won't be rushing to buy this just yet.......

Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 23, 2023, 01:25:19 PMI haven't heard this YouTube version just the "sample" you get on music sale websites.  The basic tempo is notably slower than the famous Gerhardt.  I'm guessing this new version is more "authentic" tempo-wise but gosh isn't the Gerhardt more viscerally exciting? I won't be rushing to buy this just yet.......

Yes, Gerhardt remains the best!  This is very good, but Charles Gerhardt is just golden!

On the other hand, we now have a stereo performance of the entire score, so I will buy this eventually!  :)

Quote from: Cato on May 23, 2023, 02:27:45 PMYes, Gerhardt remains the best!  This is very good, but Charles Gerhardt is just golden!

On the other hand, we now have a stereo performance of the entire score, so I will buy this eventually!  :)

I'm sure I will too - but I'm trying to delay the spend for the time being!!

PS:  as with many people - that Gerhardt/disc/series opened my ears to the astonishing range and impact of so many of the great film composers.  That Herrmann disc (which I first owned on a cassette with dodgy transients) opens with "The Death Hunt" and I was hooked in a bout 5 seconds flat.  In case I was wavering the Salammbo's aria from Citizen Kane with the very young Kiri Te Kanawa did the rest;

I just finished writing the booklet notes for a forthcoming (September) release (Alto CD) of material formerly available on the defunct Koch label. This will include Herrmann's fine Symphony (Sedares/Phoenix SO), 'For the Fallen' (actually my suggestion  :) ), 'Piano Concerto from Hangover Square' (performed, in the film, as the mad composer/pianist burns down the concert hall). The movie is on You Tube, and music from 'The Devil and Daniel Webster'. I much prefer Herrmann's wartime 'For the Fallen' which is moving whilst eschewing sentimentality than, for example, John Williams's 'Hymn to the Fallen' from 'Saving Private Ryan' (a great film) which I find mawkish and sentimental.

Quote from: vandermolen on May 24, 2023, 01:35:37 AMI just finished writing the booklet notes for a forthcoming (September) release (Alto CD) of material formerly available on the defunct Koch label. This will include Herrmann's fine Symphony (Sedares/Phoenix SO), 'For the Fallen' (actually my suggestion  :) ), 'Piano Concerto from Hangover Square' (performed, in the film, as the mad composer/pianist burns down the concert hall). The movie is on You Tube, and music from 'The Devil and Daniel Webster'. I much prefer Herrmann's wartime 'For the Fallen' which is moving whilst eschewing sentimentality than, for example, John Williams's 'Hymn to the Fallen' from 'Saving Private Ryan' (a great film) which I find mawkish and sentimental.

That Sedares version of the symphony is very good.  The Alto couplings are great too but I actually like the original KOCH coupling of William Schuman's wonderful "New England Tryptich" which got a cracking performance under Sedares.

Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 24, 2023, 02:26:05 AMThat Sedares version of the symphony is very good.  The Alto couplings are great too but I actually like the original KOCH coupling of William Schuman's wonderful "New England Triptych" which got a cracking performance under Sedares.

Totally agree with you about the New England Triptych. However, the big boss at Alto doesn't usually like to feature the music of more than one composer on a CD. Originally Herrmann's 'Sinfonietta' was on the programme but that was considered 'too atonal' in the end. A pity, as I rather like it and the revised version echoes the 'Psycho' soundtrack. I suggested 'For the Fallen' which I find very moving in a rather understated way.

Quote from: vandermolen on May 24, 2023, 04:59:00 AMTotally agree with you about the New England Triptych. However, the big boss at Alto doesn't usually like to feature the music of more than one composer on a CD. Originally Herrmann's 'Sinfonietta' was on the programme but that was considered 'too atonal' in the end. A pity, as I rather like it and the revised version echoes the 'Psycho' soundtrack. I suggested 'For the Fallen' which I find very moving in a rather understated way.

YES to the Sinfonietta!  "Too atonal" is a marvelously narrow-minded phrase!  ;D

The Symphony is also an excellent work, but the Sinfonietta burns down the barn, maybe because it is too atonal!  8)

Quote from: vandermolen on May 24, 2023, 01:35:37 AMI just finished writing the booklet notes for a forthcoming (September) release (Alto CD) of material formerly available on the defunct Koch label. This will include Herrmann's fine Symphony (Sedares/Phoenix SO), 'For the Fallen' (actually my suggestion  :) ), 'Piano Concerto from Hangover Square' (performed, in the film, as the mad composer/pianist burns down the concert hall). The movie is on You Tube, and music from 'The Devil and Daniel Webster'. I much prefer Herrmann's wartime 'For the Fallen' which is moving whilst eschewing sentimentality than, for example, John Williams's 'Hymn to the Fallen' from 'Saving Private Ryan' (a great film) which I find mawkish and sentimental.

I am curious about your opinion here.  Herrmann is generally the more exaggerated composer but based on music you and I both love, you seem to always like music that others could consider sentimental.  Why does that sometimes work and in the case of Saving Private Ryan not work?   That is a score almost entirely devoid of sentimentality with the possible exception of a measured dose of it in the closest thing to a theme, 'Hymn to the Fallen'.  Basically, I want to better understand what you mean if you can elaborate further. 

Quote from: Cato on May 24, 2023, 05:33:32 AMYES to the Sinfonietta!  "Too atonal" is a marvelously narrow-minded phrase!  ;D

The Symphony is also an excellent work, but the Sinfonietta burns down the barn, maybe because it is too atonal!  8)

NO MINOR CHORDS!!!!!!!!

Quote from: Cato on May 24, 2023, 05:33:32 AMYES to the Sinfonietta!  "Too atonal" is a marvelously narrow-minded phrase!  ;D

The Symphony is also an excellent work, but the Sinfonietta burns down the barn, maybe because it is too atonal!  8)

I agree Leo. I told the big boss at Alto that including the more modernist Sinfonietta was a good idea as it showed the trajectory of Herrmann's musical development - otherwise, I pointed out, that the CD was in danger of turning into 'Bernard Herrmann's Greatest Hits'. He responded by saying that he was happy to have 'Herrmann's Greatest Hits' released on an Alto CD - a fair point I guess.  ;D

Quote from: relm1 on May 24, 2023, 05:40:55 AMI am curious about your opinion here.  Herrmann is generally the more exaggerated composer but based on music you and I both love, you seem to always like music that others could consider sentimental.  Why does that sometimes work and in the case of Saving Private Ryan not work?   That is a score almost entirely devoid of sentimentality with the possible exception of a measured dose of it in the closest thing to a theme, 'Hymn to the Fallen'.  Basically, I want to better understand what you mean if you can elaborate further. 

Am at work but will think about it and get back to you.  :)

Quote from: relm1 on May 24, 2023, 05:40:55 AMI am curious about your opinion here.  Herrmann is generally the more exaggerated composer but based on music you and I both love, you seem to always like music that others could consider sentimental.  Why does that sometimes work and in the case of Saving Private Ryan not work?  That is a score almost entirely devoid of sentimentality with the possible exception of a measured dose of it in the closest thing to a theme, 'Hymn to the Fallen'.  Basically, I want to better understand what you mean if you can elaborate further. 

Maybe I didn't make myself clear before. I actually think that the score for 'Saving Private Ryan' is excellent - one of my favourites actually. It's just the 'Hymn to the Fallen' which I dislike (unfortunately it features at both the beginning and the end of the soundtrack CD). I think that it's the choral contribution which I find most sickly-sweet and mawkish - I avoid those tracks. I think that it sounds contrived, like a pastiche and a not very good attempt to write a modern 'Adagio for Strings' (Barber). I feel that Herrmann's wartime 'For the Fallen' derives from the wartime context of its composition (like Moore's 'In Memoriam') and is also influenced by Debussy's 'berceuse heroique' written during the First World War and also a kind of soothing lullaby. Maybe I'm a cynic but 'Hymn to the Fallen' sounds contrived to me rather than emanating from lived experience. My favourite track on 'Saving Private Ryan' is 'High School Teacher' which, partly for personal reasons and because of the accompanying scene in the film I find genuinely moving.

I'll take advantage of the tangent to say that you gents remind me that I've not yet seen Saving Pvt Ryan, so I'll look for it at the library.

Quote from: Karl Henning on May 24, 2023, 11:55:29 AMI'll take advantage of the tangent to say that you gents remind me that I've not yet seen Saving Pvt Ryan, so I'll look for it at the library.

Oh, it's an excellent film Karl. Probably my favourite film by Spielberg (much as I like 'Jaws'). Watch out for that bleached-out American flag. I'm sure that it represents something but I'm not sure what. Maybe that the values that it represents (Democracy, Justice, Freedom) are eroded but just about surviving. It's a wonderfully intelligent film and beautifully acted. The opening scene on Omaha Beach is unforgettable. No sign of the British of course - I guess they were getting in the way somewhere else!  ;D

Quote from: vandermolen on May 25, 2023, 05:43:15 AMOh, it's an excellent film Karl. Probably my favourite film by Spielberg (much as I like 'Jaws'). Watch out for that bleached-out American flag. I'm sure that it represents something but I'm not sure what. Maybe that the values that it represents (Democracy, Justice, Freedom) are eroded but just about surviving. It's a wonderfully intelligent film and beautifully acted. The opening scene on Omaha Beach is unforgettable. No sign of the British of course - I guess they were getting in the way somewhere else!  ;D

Saving Private Ryan is a great film.  I am still scratching my head that it lost the Oscar best picture to Shakespeare in Love?  :P

Quote from: Karl Henning on May 24, 2023, 11:55:29 AMI'll take advantage of the tangent to say that you gents remind me that I've not yet seen Saving Pvt Ryan, so I'll look for it at the library.

It is so good - make sure to see it in a single setting.  It has some powerfully moving sequences, but they are the quiet and tender moments.  There is one scene I think is so deeply felt and just comes from an extremely simple facial gesture by the late Tom Sizemore.  I don't know why that scene impacts me so deeply, it's just so masterfully done. 

Quote from: vandermolen on May 24, 2023, 11:40:23 AMMaybe I didn't make myself clear before. I actually think that the score for 'Saving Private Ryan' is excellent - one of my favourites actually. It's just the 'Hymn to the Fallen' which I dislike (unfortunately it features at both the beginning and the end of the soundtrack CD). I think that it's the choral contribution which I find most sickly-sweet and mawkish - I avoid those tracks. I think that it sounds contrived, like a pastiche and a not very good attempt to write a modern 'Adagio for Strings' (Barber). I feel that Herrmann's wartime 'For the Fallen' derives from the wartime context of its composition (like Moore's 'In Memoriam') and is also influenced by Debussy's 'berceuse heroique' written during the First World War and also a kind of soothing lullaby. Maybe I'm a cynic but 'Hymn to the Fallen' sounds contrived to me rather than emanating from lived experience. My favourite track on 'Saving Private Ryan' is 'High School Teacher' which, partly for personal reasons and because of the accompanying scene in the film I find genuinely moving.

Makes sense. 

A tangent of a tangent, I don't think Yanks and British liked each other much during WWII.  I stumbled upon a training video to American GI's about how to act in England.  The caricatures of both the Americans and English are jarring but it must have really felt this way to both nationals when probably few had traveled outside their country before the war so meeting each other must have come as a very big cultural shock.  The moment where the yank teased the Scotts about wearing a kilt was very cringy but I liked Burgess Meredith's reaction that they are tougher than you might think. 

Quote from: relm1 on May 25, 2023, 06:17:25 AMMakes sense. 

A tangent of a tangent, I don't think Yanks and British liked each other much during WWII.  I stumbled upon a training video to American GI's about how to act in England.  The caricatures of both the Americans and English are jarring but it must have really felt this way to both nationals when probably few had traveled outside their country before the war so meeting each other must have come as a very big cultural shock.  The moment where the yank teased the Scotts about wearing a kilt was very cringy but I liked Burgess Meredith's reaction that they are tougher than you might think. 

I'm a great fan of Burgess Meredith (a great actor). Coincidentally I've been listening to him narrating John Williams's (fine) score for 'The Reivers'. I guess that many people, myself included, associate him with The Penguin from 'Batman' and his endearing contribution to the original (and incomparably better) 'Clash of the Titans'.

FDR the great wartime American President said (of Churchill) 'I like Winston but not as much as he likes me' - I'm sure that this still explains the 'Special Relationship' between our two countries.

Quote from: vandermolen on May 25, 2023, 06:45:53 AMI'm a great fan of Burgess Meredith (a great actor). Coincidentally I've been listening to him narrating John Williams's (fine) score for 'The Reivers'. I guess that many people, myself included, associate him with The Penguin from 'Batman' and his endearing contribution to the original (and incomparably better) 'Clash of the Titans'.

Good reminder about the original 'Clash of the Titans'.  I'll always remember Burgess Meredith for his performances as the crusty and cranky boxing trainer in the 'Rocky' series (first three).

Quote from: Franco_Manitobain on May 25, 2023, 06:53:05 AMGood reminder about the original 'Clash of the Titans'.  I'll always remember Burgess Meredith for his performances as the crusty and cranky boxing trainer in the 'Rocky' series (first three).

He had a very distinguished acting career. I don't know the Rocky films but am sure that he was great.
I love the original 'Jason and the Argonauts' and 'Clash of the Titans' movies which were so much better that the later digital special effects versions which were instantly forgettable.

Quote from: vandermolen on May 25, 2023, 06:55:53 AMHe had a very distinguished acting career. I don't know the Rocky films but am sure that he was great.

He's a scene stealer!

Quote from: vandermolen on May 25, 2023, 06:45:53 AMI'm a great fan of Burgess Meredith (a great actor). Coincidentally I've been listening to him narrating John Williams's (fine) score for 'The Reivers'. I guess that many people, myself included, associate him with The Penguin from 'Batman' and his endearing contribution to the original (and incomparably better) 'Clash of the Titans'.

Apart from Batman, I mostly enjoy Burgess Meredith in four episodes of The Twilight Zone, especially "Time Enough at Last" and "The Obsolete Man," though I'm also perhaps fonder than the consensus of "Printer's Devil."

Quote from: Franco_Manitobain on May 25, 2023, 05:51:09 AMSaving Private Ryan is a great film.  I am still scratching my head that it lost the Oscar best picture to Shakespeare in Love?  :P

Shakespeare in Love caused a great deal of head scratching for a great number of people!!! 

Spoiler alert - on one of those wonderful film-nerd forums recently I read an earnest discussion about the fact that the motorbike against which Tom Hanks herocially dies at the end of the film was a version that was not made until after the War - shock/horror and howls of disgust from all true petrol-head/bikers.  FWIW - I like Hymn to the Fallen a lot!

Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 25, 2023, 08:42:28 AMShakespeare in Love caused a great deal of head scratching for a great number of people!!! 

Spoiler alert - on one of those wonderful film-nerd forums recently I read an earnest discussion about the fact that the motorbike against which Tom Hanks herocially dies at the end of the film was a version that was not made until after the War - shock/horror and howls of disgust from all true petrol-head/bikers.  FWIW - I like Hymn to the Fallen a lot!

Like the helicopter in 'Where Eagles Dare' which wasn't manufactured until after the war.

Quote from: vandermolen on May 25, 2023, 06:45:53 AMI'm a great fan of Burgess Meredith (a great actor). Coincidentally I've been listening to him narrating John Williams's (fine) score for 'The Reivers'. I guess that many people, myself included, associate him with The Penguin from 'Batman' and his endearing contribution to the original (and incomparably better) 'Clash of the Titans'.

Wrong.  He is always best known for his post apocalyptic role in TZ.

(https://americanmemorylane.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/time-enough-at-last-twilight-zone.jpg)

I'm teasing.  He's a complete cameleon.  I first came across him as Rocky's beloved asshole coach and hated him but loved him immediately too.  Geesh what a cinematic cameleon.  FYI - Rocky 1 is a fantastic film.

Quote from: relm1 on May 25, 2023, 04:38:04 PMWrong.  He is always best known for his post apocalyptic role in TZ.

(https://americanmemorylane.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/time-enough-at-last-twilight-zone.jpg)

I'm teasing.  He's a complete cameleon.  I first came across him as Rocky's beloved asshole coach and hated him but loved him immediately too.  Geesh what a cinematic cameleon.  FYI - Rocky 1 is a fantastic film.

Thanks - I will look out for it.

Quote from: Cato on June 24, 2022, 06:13:38 AMFixed it for you!

Excellent performance, but one expects excellence from the Concertgebouw Orchestra!  0:)

Superb! Oh, and I got here a year late.

Quote from: Franco_Manitobain on May 25, 2023, 06:53:05 AMGood reminder about the original 'Clash of the Titans'.  I'll always remember Burgess Meredith for his performances as the crusty and cranky boxing trainer in the 'Rocky' series (first three).

Quote from: Karl Henning on May 25, 2023, 07:37:28 AMApart from Batman, I mostly enjoy Burgess Meredith in four episodes of The Twilight Zone, especially "Time Enough at Last" and "The Obsolete Man," though I'm also perhaps fonder than the consensus of
"Printer's Devil."

Concerning Burgess Meredith:

With Lon Chaney, Jr he was in the movie version of Steinbeck's Of Mice and Men:

Spoiler alert: Final Scene...

Quote from: Cato on May 24, 2023, 05:33:32 AMYES to the Sinfonietta!  "Too atonal" is a marvelously narrow-minded phrase!  ;D

The Symphony is also an excellent work, but the Sinfonietta burns down the barn, maybe because it is too atonal!  8)

Love it!

Herrmann conducting in 1971 and discussing composers Carl Ruggles and Charles Ives: