This is a specific request for assistance with appreciating this specific cycle.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71qraR5eNEL._AC_SY450_.jpg)
Are you familiar with this cycle?
Do you like it or not?
What do you consider to be its strengths and/or weaknesses?
As one builds one's collection there are a number of specific works, performances and performers that one would like to include in it.
The Beethoven Piano Sonata cycle played by Annie Fischer was always one of those for me. However, until relatively recently I had not acquired this cycle until a friend of mine gave me access to it. I was very excited to be finally able to hear this set, anticipating wonderful things from it. This anticipation stemmed from a number of recommendations that had been made to me over the years that this was a superb, must hear set.
I have done no research since I have acquired the set in terms of what was to be expected from it as I like to let my own ears be the judge of interpreting what I am hearing.
So far I have listened to four sonatas, Beethoven's Opp. 2 & 7 in this Piano Sonata cycle performed by Annie Fischer. I must admit that I have been disappointed with these listening sessions thus far. I have found the sound of the instrument [or the recording of it] to be too powerful and full sounding for my taste in the Op. 2 works. I also find that the playing is too robust in that there is a lack of fluidity or lyricism in the flow of the presentations. I found these listening sessions to be fatiguing; too much gravitas overall, for me.
With regard to Op. 7 yes, all of the notes are properly played but I am finding that the interpretation and presentation lack fluidity and sensitivity. It all sounds too technical a performance to my ears.
Therefore, before I proceed any further with this cycle, I am endeavouring to elicit specific guidance from more educated piano-philes with the following questions regarding Fischer's interpretations:
1. What am I missing, if anything, in terms of these performances and interpretations?
2. What specifically should I be looking for to increase my appreciation of Fischer's presentations?
3. Am I wasting my time proceeding any further if I have these impressions at this early stage?
What I am looking for here is help and guidance with interpreting and appreciating what Fischer is trying to do with these interpretations.
I am open to any suggestions that will enable me to appreciate anything that is good in this specific cycle that I may be obviously missing.
Just to be clear, I do have nine other complete or near complete cycles of this music by other pianists and many, many individual discs. Therefore, I am not looking for other recommendations, simply guidance on Fischer's interpretations, if that is possible.
This might be my second favorite cycle behind Andrea Lucchesini's. One major problem with Fischer's cycle is the
very jarring edits in places where the volume, dynamics or even wrong timing of notes is spliced in haphazardly.
Quote from: aligreto on July 13, 2022, 04:25:47 AM
I also find that the playing is too robust in that there is a lack of fluidity or lyricism in the flow of the presentations. I found these listening sessions to be fatiguing; too much gravitas overall, for me.
With regard to Op. 7 yes, all of the notes are properly played but I am finding that the interpretation and presentation lack fluidity and sensitivity. It all sounds too technical a performance to my ears.
I can see where you're coming from these descriptions. If I were to have read them without a pianist being mentioned I'd have guessed you were referring to Kovacevich.
Lyricism and fluidity might be a lower priority on the scale with her, but I do find it has that transcendental quality in the late sonatas where I find Kovacevich and especially Gulda (Amadeo) who are in a similar style a huge miss.
You are correct that the recording quality errs towards the hard side.
I universally find her earlier EMI recordings superior to the Hungaroton but she is still Annie Fischer which probably won't change your opinion.
aligreto I'd love to read about your favorites among your nine cycles and what you like about them. I'm always looking for an excuse to relisten to what I have or explore something I haven't :)
Quote from: hvbias on July 13, 2022, 04:55:53 AM
This might be my second favorite cycle behind Andrea Lucchesini's. One major problem with Fischer's cycle is the very jarring edits in places where the volume, dynamics or even wrong timing of notes is spliced in haphazardly.
I can see where you're coming from these descriptions. If I were to have read them without a pianist being mentioned I'd have guessed you were referring to Kovacevich.
Lyricism and fluidity might be a lower priority on the scale with her, but I do find it has that transcendental quality in the late sonatas where I find Kovacevich and especially Gulda (Amadeo) who are in a similar style a huge miss.
You are correct that the recording quality errs towards the hard side.
I universally find her earlier EMI recordings superior to the Hungaroton but she is still Annie Fischer which probably won't change your opinion.
aligreto I'd love to read about your favorites among your nine cycles and what you like about them. I'm always looking for an excuse to relisten to what I have or explore something I haven't :)
Thank you very much for your quick and helpful response.
It is indeed gratifying, coming from a Fischer lover, that my perceived faults thus far were not imaginary to my ears. :)
You mention that
QuoteLyricism and fluidity might be a lower priority on the scale with her
so I would be interested to know what you consider to be her strong points in this music so that I can look out for them myself and endeavour to take them on board.
I do not want this thread to turn into another account of peoples' Top Ten this or that so I will revert to you on my favourites at a slightly later stage. ;)
Quote from: aligreto on July 13, 2022, 05:18:40 AM
Thank you very much for your quick and helpful response.
It is indeed gratifying, coming from a Fischer lover, that my perceived faults thus far were not imaginary to my ears. :)
You mention that
so I would be interested to know what you consider to be her strong points in this music so that I can look out for them myself and endeavour to take them on board.
I do not want this thread to turn into another account of peoples' Top Ten this or that so I will revert to you on my favourites at a slightly later stage. ;)
Your faults with the cycle are most definitely not imagined :) There is a cult like following with Annie where she can do no wrong, and I am not in that camp.
Speaking for the cycle as a whole, what I like about it is the propulsive brio, but is still sensitive in most slow movements. I find pianists that really bring the former tend to record cycles that are "just the notes" the Gulda Amadeo I mentioned earlier is the first one that comes to mind, but overall comes across as superficial. It's sort of a tough thing to characterize, as Charles Rosen in his several recordings of the late sonatas is also in a rather sober classical style ala Gulda but brings insight like the various voices in the closing movement of op. 111 or the fugal contrasts in Hammerklavier that make them worth hearing over and over.
It has been a long time since I've heard her in the earlier sonatas, I'll give them a listen and report back.
The OP's mentioning of an - at times - lack of lyricism corresponds to my own, overall impression.
Quote from: hvbias on July 13, 2022, 05:44:37 AM
Your faults with the cycle are most definitely not imagined :) There is a cult like following with Annie where she can do no wrong, and I am not in that camp.
Speaking for the cycle as a whole, what I like about it is the propulsive brio, but is still sensitive in most slow movements. I find pianists that really bring the former tend to record cycles that are "just the notes" the Gulda Amadeo I mentioned earlier is the first one that comes to mind, but overall comes across as superficial. It's sort of a tough thing to characterize, as Charles Rosen in his several recordings of the late sonatas is also in a rather sober classical style ala Gulda but brings insight like the various voices in the closing movement of op. 111 or the fugal contrasts in Hammerklavier that make them worth hearing over and over.
It has been a long time since I've heard her in the earlier sonatas, I'll give them a listen and report back.
Thank you, once again, for your helpful response.
I will certainly listen out for the
propulsive brio that you have mentioned.
If I remember correctly, I read some time ago that this cycle was recorded over a number of years. If this is correct, does Fischer's approach change in any way as the years passed?
Quote from: MusicTurner on July 13, 2022, 05:55:37 AM
The OP's mentioning of an - at times - lack of lyricism corresponds to my own, overall impression.
Thank you for that. This is not an Annie Fischer bashing exercise by any means on my behalf.
It is simply somewhat pleasing that two different people have now confirmed my misgivings due to my disappointment.
Perhaps I had built it up too much in my own mind?
Quote from: hvbias on July 13, 2022, 04:55:53 AM
aligreto I'd love to read about your favorites among your nine cycles and what you like about them. I'm always looking for an excuse to relisten to what I have or explore something I haven't :)
You have a PM :)
Quote from: aligreto on July 13, 2022, 04:25:07 AM
This is a specific request for assistance with appreciating this specific cycle.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71qraR5eNEL._AC_SY450_.jpg)
Quote from: aligreto on July 13, 2022, 04:25:07 AMAre you familiar with this cycle?
Yes.
Quote from: aligreto on July 13, 2022, 04:25:07 AMDo you like it or not?
Yes. It remains my favorite cycle out of ~120 I have heard. I have not listened to the whole thing in a while, though.
Quote from: aligreto on July 13, 2022, 04:25:07 AMWhat do you consider to be its strengths and/or weaknesses?
Ms Fischer is hard hitting, intense, and almost fraught at times. Her playing is vigorous and mostly avoids a softer style, even in places where it may benefit the music. Subtlety is not a priority. The Hungaroton cycle is about of-the-moment feeling of individual passages and sections, which was reflected in the way it was put together - recorded over many years and in many takes. The sound of the Bosendorfer reinforces her approach. Her EMI and various live recordings (eg, BBC Legends) also sound very fine, but her Hungaroton cycle is her finest achievement when it comes to Beethoven.
Quote from: aligreto on July 13, 2022, 06:00:19 AM
If I remember correctly, I read some time ago that this cycle was recorded over a number of years. If this is correct, does Fischer's approach change in any way as the years past?
It was recorded over many years, it was edited rather sloppily from numerous takes, and to the best of my memory the booklet makes no mention of these edits which would make any given recording dates IMO meaningless.
I compared her EMI recordings from much earlier in her career and her overall approach is the same as the Hungaroton.
Since you mentioned the recording quality, for me this is usually not something that can detract me enough from a recording if I like the performances. In the last few years among my most played Beethoven piano sonatas included Kempff's pre-war electric and one acoustic recordings and these sound dreadful. I can certainly see how this would be a major drawback and remove further from one's enjoyment of the music.
Quote from: aligreto on July 13, 2022, 04:25:07 AM
This is a specific request for assistance with appreciating this specific cycle.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71qraR5eNEL._AC_SY450_.jpg)
Are you familiar with this cycle?
Do you like it or not?
What do you consider to be its strengths and/or weaknesses?
I have been aware of her cycle for years and am listening to it again, right now. It has always been one that I knew to be deservedly highly regarded, and as such, considered it a kind of reference recording; i.e. to compare new recordings to her performances.
It is very good, IMO, among the best of the ones I've heard. I am horrible at trying to describe why I like a recording, or qualities of the performance. But since you seem to want that kind of feedback, I'd say her's is authoritative, strongly articulated and defined; possessing a unique personality and interpretation of the music.
All of which I think creates a distinctive and remarkable performance of Beethoven.
I personally dislike her Beethoven enormously for all the reasons which make Todd like it -- hard hitting, vigorous, commanding, confident and extrovert. These things are just taste but I will say this -- although I dislike it, it's a very good cycle and it really needs to be heard. One day I may even acquire the taste for it.
There's another think I could say, at the level of anecdote. Every time I listen to something from the cycle I'm reminded of how excellent it is. Amazingly excellent at times. The named sonatas, op 2s and 10s, the last sonatas -- all incredible really. It's just that I don't like it much.
This is my second favorite set and a great contrast to my favorite (Kempff). Fischer is so muscular and vibrant and personal. It just has to be heard. You don't have to like it, but it brings another dimension to these great works, and should be heard just for that reason.
Quote from: hvbias on July 13, 2022, 06:28:09 AM
It was recorded over many years, it was edited rather sloppily from numerous takes, and to the best of my memory the booklet makes no mention of these edits which would make any given recording dates IMO meaningless.
Hence the nickname "FrankenFischer cycle", which I do not think is undeserving. Personally, I find this heavy-handed editing work disqualifies it from being seriously and validly considered among other interpretations.
Quote from: aligreto on July 13, 2022, 04:25:47 AM
I also find that the playing is too robust in that there is a lack of fluidity or lyricism in the flow of the presentations. I found these listening sessions to be fatiguing; too much gravitas overall, for me.
With regard to Op. 7 yes, all of the notes are properly played but I am finding that the interpretation and presentation lack fluidity and sensitivity. It all sounds too technical a performance to my ears.
It's not you, it's the playing.
Let me add my voice to those who do not like her Beethoven cycle. At all. I find her playing heavy-handed and insensitive to the music.
Quote from: hvbias on July 13, 2022, 06:28:09 AM
It was recorded over many years, it was edited rather sloppily from numerous takes, and to the best of my memory the booklet makes no mention of these edits which would make any given recording dates IMO meaningless.
I think they give a "range" like 1977-80 or so. They stem from the late 70s, but were never approved for release by Fischer and therefore published some time after her death in the 1990s, and, as already said, supposedly put together from a multitude of takes.
Quote
I compared her EMI recordings from much earlier in her career and her overall approach is the same as the Hungaroton.
I have had these in the "introuvables" box for a long time and the continued praise in some corners of the internet (long before I knew of this forum, probably going back to the late 1990s after the hungaroton appeared) made be buy two volumes of the hungaroton around 10 or 12 years ago when they were on sale.
I agree that the overall approach seems somewhat similar (and it's less than 20 years between the EMI and the hungaroton, less time, I believe, than between Pollinis Late Sonatas and his last recorded Beethoven sonatas). The sound is not great on either (the EMI being muffled late 50s, some mono, the hungaroton almost brutally direct). I think they are worthwhile but I don't quite get the "über-status" they have acquired (and I have the strong impression that this status is particularly pronounced in US-dominated internet fora... which is neither good nor bad, of course, just a bit odd, but correct me, if I am wrong and Diapason or Fonoforum have waxed lyrical about them).
Years ago I compared a bunch of op.31/3 in some discussion in another forum and I wrote that Fischer's (EMI) was the grimmest, least humorous version of this sonata I encountered, nevertheless oddly compelling and worth listening.
I could probably say similar things about all of the 12 or 14 sonatas I have heard. Of course, for some sonatas the grim intensity and expressivity has almost no downside but as overall far more sonatas are lyrical or playful than dramatic (and the dramatic ones are often the ones with MANY compelling recordings) this is for me an overall downside. Because the hungaroton discs are hard to find and expensive separately and I don't do streaming or downloads, I am not in a hurry to get the remainder; it's a good set but I don't agree that it deserves the exalted status it has in some quarters.
@aligreto: Try op.110 and 111 from the hungaroton, or maybe op.10/3.
Quote from: Jo498 on July 13, 2022, 10:15:57 AM
(and I have the strong impression that this status is particularly pronounced in US-dominated internet fora...).
This is my impression, as well.
Quote from: hvbias on July 13, 2022, 04:55:53 AM
This might be my second favorite cycle behind Andrea Lucchesini's.
What do you particularly like about Lucchesini?
(I think it's good and very impressive for live and mostly in pleasant sound but I also don't understand why it is often recommended so highly.
Quote
Lyricism and fluidity might be a lower priority on the scale with her, but I do find it has that transcendental quality in the late sonatas where I find Kovacevich and especially Gulda (Amadeo) who are in a similar style a huge miss.
The Philips recordings by Kovacevich have more pleasant sound, are less "bangy" than the EMI and include the last 3 sonatas and op 101.
I think Gulda has a rather different style, usually less dramatic (more "kinetic") and expressive. He can be a bit "slick", very fast and not very expressive although I think sometimes I'd call this unpretentious and "natural", rather than plain, and I like his op.106 and 111 still a lot but I agree that the others are a bit prosaic (op.110 apparently was a huge favorite of Gulda and he frequently played it in recital).
As I wrote in the other reply, Fischer manages to make some sonatas (like 31/3 or 14/2) "work" despite lack of charm and humor but I find Gulda superior in most such pieces and these respects.
I'm in the negative column with Ms. Fischer: choppy, unspontaneous, micromanaged are the words I would use.
I suppose it can be blamed on the "here a splice there a splice" approach, but at any rate I was fairly unimpressed and never quite understood why it has the admiration it gets.
Quote from: Jo498 on July 13, 2022, 10:15:57 AM
I think they give a "range" like 1977-80 or so. They stem from the late 70s, but were never approved for release by Fischer and therefore published some time after her death in the 1990s, and, as already said, supposedly put together from a multitude of takes.
I have had these in the "introuvables" box for a long time and the continued praise in some corners of the internet (long before I knew of this forum, probably going back to the late 1990s after the hungaroton appeared) made be buy two volumes of the hungaroton around 10 or 12 years ago when they were on sale.
I agree that the overall approach seems somewhat similar (and it's less than 20 years between the EMI and the hungaroton, less time, I believe, than between Pollinis Late Sonatas and his last recorded Beethoven sonatas). The sound is not great on either (the EMI being muffled late 50s, some mono, the hungaroton almost brutally direct). I think they are worthwhile but I don't quite get the "über-status" they have acquired (and I have the strong impression that this status is particularly pronounced in US-dominated internet fora... which is neither good nor bad, of course, just a bit odd, but correct me, if I am wrong and Diapason or Fonoforum have waxed lyrical about them).
Years ago I compared a bunch of op.31/3 in some discussion in another forum and I wrote that Fischer's (EMI) was the grimmest, least humorous version of this sonata I encountered, nevertheless oddly compelling and worth listening.
I could probably say similar things about all of the 12 or 14 sonatas I have heard. Of course, for some sonatas the grim intensity and expressivity has almost no downside but as overall far more sonatas are lyrical or playful than dramatic (and the dramatic ones are often the ones with MANY compelling recordings) this is for me an overall downside. Because the hungaroton discs are hard to find and expensive separately and I don't do streaming or downloads, I am not in a hurry to get the remainder; it's a good set but I don't agree that it deserves the exalted status it has in some quarters.
@aligreto: Try op.110 and 111 from the hungaroton, or maybe op.10/3.
I really wonder whether that unique sense of swagger and muscularity comes mainly from that "brutal" Hungaroton piano sound. It may be realistic - if you sit in the front row and it's an old and not the best Bosendorfer.
The very sound certainly contributes to the muscular and "powerful" impression.
However, as hvbias pointed out above, the EMI recordings of ca. 20 years earlier (around 1960) are similar in approach, although not in sound. And I doubt that with early stereo tape technology they had many takes and splices, certainly not to the extent the late 1970s recordings have.
I have this cycle and rate it very highly but with a caveat. Out the 32, there is only one sonata in there that I would say is the best version I've heard. I can find better versions of the other 31 from other pianists.
One of the reasons I like the cycle is it's intensity and that it does get to the depth of many of the PS. There is passion as well as a good range of expression - she finds a degree of appropriate melancholy in a number of the slow movements. I find the degree of gravitas in a number of them works very well for how I like to hear Beethoven played. However, Fischer's style never varies and if you sat down to listen to all 32 in a couple of sessions this would become very evident and would also start to be annoying.
Now I could also say similar things about the Kempff mono cycle which I also rate highly and which is the polar opposite to Fischer's approach. His is a poetic and intimate approach with wonderful inner nuances and sense of fluidity and many of the sonatas benefit from this way of playing. However, this doesn't work for all the sonatas some of which do require a more muscular approach. A full listening session, like with the Fischer, would eventually become tiresome.
Like me, it sounds as if you have looked for individual favourite performances of each work. I believe this is the best way to go. You may end up with more than one favourite for some of the sonatas but that's OK. For example, Moravec's Op 13 is outstanding but I really like what Rubinstein does - it's very different from the Moravec but it works so well for me. I've got a Richter recording of the same work from 1959? which is also outstanding. I've kept all three.
Quote from: Wanderer on July 13, 2022, 09:32:21 AM
Hence the nickname "FrankenFischer cycle", which I do not think is undeserving. Personally, I find this heavy-handed editing work disqualifies it from being seriously and validly considered among other interpretations.
With the caveat that nearly everything studio related is going to be manipulated I will highlight and agree with you that it is the
sloppy nature of the editing I have complaints with, not that they aren't single takes of every sonata.
Quote
It's not you, it's the playing.
Let me add my voice to those who do not like her Beethoven cycle. At all. I find her playing heavy-hitting and insensitive to the music.
I find there is much beauty and sensitivity throughout the cycle. I like her Les Adieux as much as Kempff, Backhaus, Schnabel, Lucchesini: https://youtu.be/jiS-MQV6QwM
I also like the cycle because it's unapologetically bold and uniquely hers. Similar to a live recording of Brahms op. 5 sonata, she turns in a red hot firebrand performance the likes I've only seen matched by Zimerman (and incorrect of him to think these aren't good performances).
Quote from: Jo498 on July 13, 2022, 10:15:57 AM
I think they give a "range" like 1977-80 or so. They stem from the late 70s, but were never approved for release by Fischer and therefore published some time after her death in the 1990s, and, as already said, supposedly put together from a multitude of takes.
I have had these in the "introuvables" box for a long time and the continued praise in some corners of the internet (long before I knew of this forum, probably going back to the late 1990s after the hungaroton appeared) made be buy two volumes of the hungaroton around 10 or 12 years ago when they were on sale.
I agree that the overall approach seems somewhat similar (and it's less than 20 years between the EMI and the hungaroton, less time, I believe, than between Pollinis Late Sonatas and his last recorded Beethoven sonatas). The sound is not great on either (the EMI being muffled late 50s, some mono, the hungaroton almost brutally direct). I think they are worthwhile but I don't quite get the "über-status" they have acquired (and I have the strong impression that this status is particularly pronounced in US-dominated internet fora... which is neither good nor bad, of course, just a bit odd, but correct me, if I am wrong and Diapason or Fonoforum have waxed lyrical about them).
Agree the EMI recordings are muffled.
I'm not sure it's a regional thing. When those EMI LPs turn up in UK pressings they sell for hundreds of pounds, I'm not so sure these are American buyers, I'd be more lead to believe it's the Japanese... a similar demographic that might think JSB's Sonatas and Partitas have never been bettered since Johanna Martzy.
The first time I heard these being praised to high heavens was in a British classical music book. The author also loved Backhaus, and this seems to be a commonality in people that like Fischer like Backhaus as well.
QuoteYears ago I compared a bunch of op.31/3 in some discussion in another forum and I wrote that Fischer's (EMI) was the grimmest, least humorous version of this sonata I encountered, nevertheless oddly compelling and worth listening.
I'll revisit this, I wouldn't be surprised by the bolded part. Humor is not on the top of the list of adjectives when I think of her playing.
QuoteI could probably say similar things about all of the 12 or 14 sonatas I have heard. Of course, for some sonatas the grim intensity and expressivity has almost no downside but as overall far more sonatas are lyrical or playful than dramatic (and the dramatic ones are often the ones with MANY compelling recordings) this is for me an overall downside.
What are the dramatic sonatas for you? I find Appassionata particularly problematic in vast majority of pianists hold back the reigns. The gold standard for me is Richter from December 23, 1960, an unparalleled account.
Hammerklavier is the other problematic (dramatic as well?) one. amw made a list in the main Beethoven Piano Sonata thread I find myself in agreement with, very few made the real top tier, like my own list.
I like Fischer quite a bit in both of those sonatas.
Quote
Because the hungaroton discs are hard to find and expensive separately and I don't do streaming or downloads, I am not in a hurry to get the remainder; it's a good set but I don't agree that it deserves the exalted status it has in some quarters.
Agree, I bought this as the older red box and even then Hungaroton priced it on the premium side, ~ $10 per CD when most box sets were far less back then.
I think this is a cycle one should come to after hearing several others. A personal 2nd or 3rd ranking for me is sort of meaningless compared to what is out there for others.
Quote
@aligreto: Try op.110 and 111 from the hungaroton, or maybe op.10/3.
Good suggestions. Fischer is what I would call a late Beethoven pianist.
Quote from: Jo498 on July 13, 2022, 12:00:55 PM
What do you particularly like about Lucchesini?
(I think it's good and very impressive for live and mostly in pleasant sound but I also don't understand why it is often recommended so highly.
The Philips recordings by Kovacevich have more pleasant sound, are less "bangy" than the EMI and include the last 3 sonatas and op 101.
I've never heard any other cycle manage to carry out the sheer feeling, passion, and poetry without letting the music drag or slump (no tired trope of music being played slowly for a "spiritual quality") as well as Lucchesini did and I am including Kempff in that lot who I have heard all three complete cycles including the horrendous live in Japan.
The Adagio of the Hammerklavier: https://youtu.be/a3SWL-ZZCtw The most a dark, melancholy account of it ever. That single movement is one of the greatest things I have ever heard. And Lucchesini turns in a phenomenal closing movement played with such vigor and climbing towards the light, beautifully starkly contrasted against the Adagio. But all is not perfect as I think the opening movement does need to be played at Beethoven's tempo markings to allow the contrast with the grave third movement, where Lucchesini instead takes it slow.
I think op 109, 110 and 111 are up there with the very best as well. His personal rubato, that yearning quality in the opening of op. 110 (https://youtu.be/8qaEUQTQDHI), the darkness in op. 111 like the Hammerklavier. I've really heard nothing remotely like it from Les Adieux to 111.
Interestingly I find Maria Tipo recorded one of the very best op. 109, who Lucchesini studied with.
I'd very gladly give up all my cycles to live with just Lucchesini if forced to.
Quote
I think Gulda has a rather different style, usually less dramatic (more "kinetic") and expressive. He can be a bit "slick", very fast and not very expressive although I think sometimes I'd call this unpretentious and "natural", rather than plain, and I like his op.106 and 111 still a lot but I agree that the others are a bit prosaic (op.110 apparently was a huge favorite of Gulda and he frequently played it in recital).
As I wrote in the other reply, Fischer manages to make some sonatas (like 31/3 or 14/2) "work" despite lack of charm and humor but I find Gulda superior in most such pieces and these respects.
Between Kovacevich and Gulda Amadeo, Fischer does lean more towards the former. Kovacevich misses on those "transcendental" aspects and feeling that Fischer has.
Unpretentious I can get onboard with Gulda... though in that case I'd consider very few to be pretentious, I guess Gould, Fazil Say, maybe Schiff ECM, Russell Sherman. I do like the latter but that is in some part due to my Boston area bias ;D
Quote from: Mandryka on July 13, 2022, 07:15:48 AM
There's another think I could say, at the level of anecdote. Every time I listen to something from the cycle I'm reminded of how excellent it is. Amazingly excellent at times. The named sonatas, op 2s and 10s, the last sonatas -- all incredible really. It's just that I don't like it much.
That's funny, I sort of feel the same. When I haven't heard it in a long time I get annoyed thinking about the edits. Then I listen to it and that feeling washes away.
Quote from: Todd on July 13, 2022, 06:24:19 AM
Ms Fischer is hard hitting, intense, and almost fraught at times. Her playing is vigorous and mostly avoids a softer style, even in places where it may benefit the music. Subtlety is not a priority.
Thank you for your response. I like the quote above from you. It helps me to contextualise her presentation style.
Quote from: hvbias on July 13, 2022, 06:28:09 AM
It was recorded over many years, it was edited rather sloppily from numerous takes, and to the best of my memory the booklet makes no mention of these edits...
I had originally forgotten to mention these edits which I had already come across. They are so bad. I wonder who sanctioned such poor editing and why? This has more of an impact on my listening pleasure than the quality of the sound to be honest.
Quote from: San Antone on July 13, 2022, 07:02:55 AM
I am horrible at trying to describe why I like a recording, or qualities of the performance. But since you seem to want that kind of feedback, I'd say her's is authoritative, strongly articulated and defined; possessing a unique personality and interpretation of the music.
All of which I think creates a distinctive and remarkable performance of Beethoven.
Thank you for your thoughts and I think that you did a fine job in articulating them. Once again I am reading terms like authoritative and strongly articulated. I will need to pay more attention to these characteristics as I progress with my listening.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 13, 2022, 07:15:48 AM
I personally dislike her Beethoven enormously for all the reasons which make Todd like it -- hard hitting, vigorous, commanding, confident and extrovert. These things are just taste but I will say this -- although I dislike it, it's a very good cycle and it really needs to be heard. One day I may even acquire the taste for it.
There's another think I could say, at the level of anecdote. Every time I listen to something from the cycle I'm reminded of how excellent it is. Amazingly excellent at times. The named sonatas, op 2s and 10s, the last sonatas -- all incredible really. It's just that I don't like it much.
I wonder will I eventually end up adopting this attitude of not liking it but still admiring it? That is still a worthwhile attitude to have but I will obviously have to earn it by listening to it fully and critically.
Quote from: DavidW on July 13, 2022, 07:30:56 AM
This is my second favorite set and a great contrast to my favorite (Kempff). Fischer is so muscular and vibrant and personal. It just has to be heard. You don't have to like it, but it brings another dimension to these great works, and should be heard just for that reason.
That same sentiment again of admiration. I certainly appreciate the concept of contrast. I do have and like the Kempff [mono] which I consider to be lyrical, poetic even. It is becoming more obvious to me that I need to assimilate this muscular and vibrant approach for what it is. Thank you for that.
Quote from: Wanderer on July 13, 2022, 09:32:21 AM
Hence the nickname "FrankenFischer cycle", which I do not think is undeserving. Personally, I find this heavy-handed editing work disqualifies it from being seriously and validly considered among other interpretations.
It's not you, it's the playing.
Let me add my voice to those who do not like her Beethoven cycle. At all. I find her playing heavy-hitting and insensitive to the music.
Thank you for your thoughts. As mentioned above in another response this heavy-handed editing work is likely to be a big issue for me going forward as it appears to be ubiquitous from various reports thus far.
Quote from: Jo498 on July 13, 2022, 10:15:57 AM
I think they give a "range" like 1977-80 or so. They stem from the late 70s, but were never approved for release by Fischer and therefore published some time after her death in the 1990s, and, as already said, supposedly put together from a multitude of takes.
You appear to have answered a question that I posed earlier in that I did not know that Fischer had not approved the releases. I find that very interesting and telling.
Thank you for the information and your other thoughts and recommendations.
Quote from: JBS on July 13, 2022, 12:21:30 PM
I'm in the negative column with Ms. Fischer: choppy, unspontaneous, micromanaged are the words I would use.
I suppose it can be blamed on the "here a splice there a splice" approach, but at any rate I was fairly unimpressed and never quite understood why it has the admiration it gets.
Thank you for your thoughts. Choppy and unspontaneous I understand but
micromanaged is something that I will have to listen out for. From what I am hearing so far I would interpret this as meaning that too much attention is being paid to the playing of the notes rather than the interpretation of them. I will consider this carefully as I progress with my listening.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 13, 2022, 12:24:21 PM
I really wonder whether that unique sense of swagger and muscularity comes mainly from that "brutal" Hungaroton piano sound. It may be realistic - if you sit in the front row and it's an old and not the best Bosendorfer.
I suspect that you may have something there. From the little that I have heard so far I am having issues with the large sonics of the bass register. I find them too powerful and unbalanced with the treble register. That is just my humble opinion.
Quote from: Holden on July 13, 2022, 01:24:49 PM
I have this cycle and rate it very highly but with a caveat. Out the 32, there is only one sonata in there that I would say is the best version I've heard. I can find better versions of the other 31 from other pianists.
One of the reasons I like the cycle is it's intensity and that it does get to the depth of many of the PS. There is passion as well as a good range of expression - she finds a degree of appropriate melancholy in a number of the slow movements. I find the degree of gravitas in a number of them works very well for how I like to hear Beethoven played. However, Fischer's style never varies and if you sat down to listen to all 32 in a couple of sessions this would become very evident and would also start to be annoying.
Now I could also say similar things about the Kempff mono cycle which I also rate highly and which is the polar opposite to Fischer's approach. His is a poetic and intimate approach with wonderful inner nuances and sense of fluidity and many of the sonatas benefit from this way of playing. However, this doesn't work for all the sonatas some of which do require a more muscular approach. A full listening session, like with the Fischer, would eventually become tiresome.
Like me, it sounds as if you have looked for individual favourite performances of each work. I believe this is the best way to go. You may end up with more than one favourite for some of the sonatas but that's OK. For example, Moravec's Op 13 is outstanding but I really like what Rubinstein does - it's very different from the Moravec but it works so well for me. I've got a Richter recording of the same work from 1959? which is also outstanding. I've kept all three.
Thank you for your considered thoughts and I appreciate everything that you are saying.
One immediate response that comes to mind is that, for me, there was just too much gravitas, even for Beethoven, in what I had heard thus far.
Also, again based on the relatively little that I have heard so far, I too have found that the lack of variety in her approach was a bit of an issue for me.
Quote from: hvbias on July 13, 2022, 03:11:27 PM
Good suggestions. Fischer is what I would call a late Beethoven pianist.
That is indeed interesting because my initial disappointment was to to my perceived heavy-handedness in the Op. 2 sonatas. I felt inclined to think that this approach would indeed be more suited to later sonatas.
What is concerning me somewhat that, as has been mentioned above, her approach will be uniform throughout the cycle.
Thank you all for your thoughts and recommendations. Your time taken along with the considered responses has been wonderful and is much appreciated by me. What I have enjoyed, in particular, has been reading both sides of the story, and also for the reasons that you all argue.
I have taken all of your various points on board and I have decided that I will continue to the end with my listening of this cycle. At least I now have valid points of argument to consider, other than my own, along my way.
Quote from: hvbias on July 13, 2022, 03:11:27 PM
I'm not sure it's a regional thing. When those EMI LPs turn up in UK pressings they sell for hundreds of pounds, I'm not so sure these are American buyers, I'd be more lead to believe it's the Japanese... a similar demographic that might think JSB's Sonatas and Partitas have never been bettered since Johanna Martzy.
These Martzy LP prices are a pure collector's fad, virtually no connection to musical quality. I actually meant only the hungaroton cycle, I wasn't even aware that these old LPs were yielding high prices as I had had the comparably cheap Introuvables box for ages.
Quote
The first time I heard these being praised to high heavens was in a British classical music book. The author also loved Backhaus, and this seems to be a commonality in people that like Fischer like Backhaus as well.
I am usually bored by Backhaus and like Fischer much better, even though I don't quite join the panegyrics of others.
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What are the dramatic sonatas for you? I find Appassionata particularly problematic in vast majority of pianists hold back the reigns. The gold standard for me is Richter from December 23, 1960, an unparalleled account.
Mostly, op.10/1+3, 13, 31/2, 53, 57, 106, 111. Of course there are dramatic movement in others, such as the "Moonlight" finale or the first of op.90. And there are other sonatas that can use a lot of energy despite not being so obviously emotional.
This is for me mostly a practical point, namely that most of these sonatas have been well covered in great recordings, often outside cycles. So I don't really find them problematic. (Or if they are, like inconsistent tempi in op.106 (although I came to not automatically disliking a slowish majestic first movement) or amw's complaint that I partly share, that most play the first movement of op.53 too slow and/or the Rondo too fast, are not likely to be better in yet another cplt box...)
Much harder to find good op.2/2, op.14 or others usually only covered in cycles. And they are often more of the lyrical/playful/brilliant (like op.2/3 or 7 or 22) kind. When over 20 years ago I got the Gulda box, after having had Gilels incomplete one for about to years and before that most of the sonatas cobbled together on separate discs, I was quite bowled over because of the energy and drive of many of these earlyish "lighter" pieces. By now, I agree that Gulda can be a bit slick and fast even in them but after Gilels (good in his way but often overly serious and weighty) it's still fresh and flowing. (Supposedly the recordings were done in summer 1967 withing a few weeks and few alternative takes.)
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I bought this as the older red box and even then Hungaroton priced it on the premium side, ~ $10 per CD when most box sets were far less back then.
I doubt I have ever seen them that cheap. Otherwise I would probably have bought the whole lot (or a few more) in my "buying lots of stuff"-time ca. 2003-13 ;)
But I don't remember the details; might also mostly have been a saturation effect.
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I've never heard any other cycle manage to carry out the sheer feeling, passion, and poetry without letting the music drag or slump (no tired trope of music being played slowly for a "spiritual quality") as well as Lucchesini did
Thanks for your comments. I also liked Lucchesini when I finally listened to the whole thing two years ago although I had a few quibbles, especially wrt repeats and tempi (both pet peeves of mine, unfortunately...)
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Interestingly I find Maria Tipo recorded one of the very best op. 109, who Lucchesini studied with.
The Tipo Ermitage live concert with Chopin Ballades? I like this also a lot, it's one of the best Recital discs ever.
Quote from: aligreto on July 14, 2022, 03:46:46 AM
That is indeed interesting because my initial disappointment was to to my perceived heavy-handedness in the Op. 2 sonatas. I felt inclined to think that this approach would indeed be more suited to later sonatas.
What is concerning me somewhat that, as has been mentioned above, her approach will be uniform throughout the cycle.
Why would the heavy handedness be more suited to the late sonatas? The op 2s aren't the world of a child, he was in his mid 20s when he wrote them - when I was 26 I was vigorous and muscular, and we all know that the younger you are, the more serious you are: as the great man said,
but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now. Annie Fischer's musical tenseness and poetic intensity seems spot on in a young firebrand's music. As far as uniformity is concerned, not everyone holds to the idea of three distinct Beethoven styles - I'd say Annie Fischer makes a good case for the uniformity of Beethoven's music.
I stick to what I said yesterday. While I dislike the set enormously, I think it is brilliant and revealing. And I'd go as far as to say that it's especially brilliant and revealing in op 2/1 for example.
Quote from: JBS on July 13, 2022, 12:21:30 PM
I'm in the negative column with Ms. Fischer: choppy, unspontaneous, micromanaged are the words I would use.
I hate performances which sound micromanaged - that's why I hate Lucchesini's brilliant but self conscious and over refined Beethoven sonatas set. And Annie Fischer may have in fact been micromanaged. But to me it doesn't sound it - the sound is too consistently tough for a micromanaged sound. To me Fischer sounds spontaneous! Although I'd prefer not to listen to either, I'd take Annie Fischer over Andrea Lucchesini in op 2/1 any day, though both are excellent of course. Lucchesini mentioned positively by someone above.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 14, 2022, 06:29:21 AMAnd Annie Fischer may have in fact been micromanaged. But to me it doesn't sound it
Micromanaged is the last adjective I would use to describe Annie Fischer, in either live or studio recordings. Micromanaged applies more to someone like Mitsuko Uchida. Such an approach can work wonderfully - or not.
The recording process for Fischer's cycle was micromanaged, but that is not uncommon. Shlomo Mintz wrote about how it took over a thousand takes to record his version of Bach's Sonatas and Partitas. When I read complaints about the studio recording process, it just seems odd, and randomly applied. Studio recordings are not in-person performances. They are attempts at idealized performances. Sometimes the editing work is of a high order, sometimes not. The recordings can still be very highly lauded. Look at Glenn Gould. Or look at Murray Perahia's Chopin Etudes, which was initially released with the last bit of music excluded. If one dislikes studio recordings, then either unedited live recordings (rare) or 78s are the way to go.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 14, 2022, 06:24:16 AM
Why would the heavy handedness be more suited to the late sonatas? The op 2s aren't the world of a child, he was in his mid 20s when he wrote them
Yes, I think that we are all aware that he was not a child when he composed it. That is not the point. The point is simply a matter of personal opinion and preference on my part.
Quote
These Martzy LP prices are a pure collector's fad, virtually no connection to musical quality. I actually meant only the hungaroton cycle, I wasn't even aware that these old LPs were yielding high prices as I had had the comparably cheap Introuvables box for ages.
I was referring to the Hungaroton cycle as well. The author had Fischer and Backhaus (no recollection if he differentiated stereo from mono cycles) as among the best, and what also stands out to me is he spoke quite highly of Richard Goode, I have never seen mentioned as a cycle that gets high praise.
Quote from: Jo498 on July 14, 2022, 05:23:17 AM
I am usually bored by Backhaus and like Fischer much better, even though I don't quite join the panegyrics of others.
Mostly, op.10/1+3, 13, 31/2, 53, 57, 106, 111. Of course there are dramatic movement in others, such as the "Moonlight" finale or the first of op.90. And there are other sonatas that can use a lot of energy despite not being so obviously emotional.
This is for me mostly a practical point, namely that most of these sonatas have been well covered in great recordings, often outside cycles. So I don't really find them problematic. (Or if they are, like inconsistent tempi in op.106 (although I came to not automatically disliking a slowish majestic first movement) or amw's complaint that I partly share, that most play the first movement of op.53 too slow and/or the Rondo too fast, are not likely to be better in yet another cplt box...)
Much harder to find good op.2/2, op.14 or others usually only covered in cycles. And they are often more of the lyrical/playful/brilliant (like op.2/3 or 7 or 22) kind. When over 20 years ago I got the Gulda box, after having had Gilels incomplete one for about to years and before that most of the sonatas cobbled together on separate discs, I was quite bowled over because of the energy and drive of many of these earlyish "lighter" pieces. By now, I agree that Gulda can be a bit slick and fast even in them but after Gilels (good in his way but often overly serious and weighty) it's still fresh and flowing. (Supposedly the recordings were done in summer 1967 withing a few weeks and few alternative takes.)
Opening movement of op. 53 I have found problematic for quite some time. There are only two I find exceptional and take it at an appropriate tempo - Josef Hofmann live recording from the late 1930s and R. Serkin from early 1950s on Columbia.
Tempest Sonata is another where too many pianists are "buttoned upon." The usually cool, collected Gieseking turns in a wild performance from the early 1930s (Naxos has transferred this). I have not heard any other performance sound remotely like that, it sounds like Gieseking takes the name of the sonata quite literally even if that wasn't Beethoven's intent. It's entertaining.
QuoteI doubt I have ever seen them that cheap. Otherwise I would probably have bought the whole lot (or a few more) in my "buying lots of stuff"-time ca. 2003-13 ;)
What I mean is the box was about $100, or $11 per CD. The premium side as far as box sets go.
Quote
The Tipo Ermitage live concert with Chopin Ballades? I like this also a lot, it's one of the best Recital discs ever.
Yes, that is indeed one of the best recital CDs. That set of Chopin Ballades is my personal reference. The disc I am referring to is EMI studio with Waldstein and op. 109 (though there are some artifacts like pedal squeaking), I can't recall the 109 from that Ermitage CD too well, but that could also be because I only reached for it to hear the Ballades.
Do you hear the piano as out of tune on that disc? I don't have perfect pitch, and it takes some of those pushed old Russian pianos to mostly notice this kind of thing.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 14, 2022, 06:29:21 AM
I hate performances which sound micromanaged - that's why I hate Lucchesini's brilliant but self conscious and over refined Beethoven sonatas set. And Annie Fischer may have in fact been micromanaged. But to me it doesn't sound it - the sound is too consistently tough for a micromanaged sound. To me Fischer sounds spontaneous! Although I'd prefer not to listen to either, I'd take Annie Fischer over Andrea Lucchesini in op 2/1 any day, though both are excellent of course. Lucchesini mentioned positively by someone above.
Very surprised to read that, spontaneous would be at the very top of my adjectives to use to describe Lucchesini's cycle. You can even hear places where it sounds like his off the cuff playing pushes things too far, and the following bars are almost "compensating" a bit more reigned in. I saw him play D959 and it was a similar type of playing by feel, rather different from Volodos' god like command.
Where I dock it are in places like Appassionata where Lucchesni plays with good tempo but lacking in recklessness and overall urgency. And I would still point listeners to sonatas like Pathetique that say he was incapable of playing ugly or dynamic enough. This sonata in particular stands out as I was listening to it at live levels and the left hand cords shook things.
If you want to hear Fischer at her least spontaneous try the Schumann Fantasie on EMI, it's stiff and boxy.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 14, 2022, 06:24:16 AM
Why would the heavy handedness be more suited to the late sonatas? The op 2s aren't the world of a child, he was in his mid 20s when he wrote them - when I was 26 I was vigorous and muscular, and we all know that the younger you are, the more serious you are: as the great man said, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now. Annie Fischer's musical tenseness and poetic intensity seems spot on in a young firebrand's music. As far as uniformity is concerned, not everyone holds to the idea of three distinct Beethoven styles - I'd say Annie Fischer makes a good case for the uniformity of Beethoven's music.
I stick to what I said yesterday. While I dislike the set enormously, I think it is brilliant and revealing. And I'd go as far as to say that it's especially brilliant and revealing in op 2/1 for example.
I would not necessarily say it's an age thing with Beethoven but the increasing number of hardships through his life. There is little humor or wryness from op. 81a onward, though playfulness does poke through. Is it a person that is wholly sane to write Grosse Fuge in late 1820s? Or variation 3 in op 111?
I lived in the US and Ireland through my twenties, the interest of all my peers was women and partying... introduced the Irish to Beirut, or beer pong if you're not from New England ;D
Quote from: hvbias on July 15, 2022, 09:08:56 AM
I was referring to the Hungaroton cycle as well. The author had Fischer and Backhaus (no recollection if he differentiated stereo from mono cycles) as among the best, and what also stands out to me is he spoke quite highly of Richard Goode, I have never seen mentioned as a cycle that gets high praise.
Opening movement of op. 53 I have found problematic for quite some time. There are only two I find exceptional and take it at an appropriate tempo - Josef Hofmann live recording from the late 1930s and R. Serkin from early 1950s on Columbia.
Tempest Sonata is another where too many pianists are "buttoned upon." The usually cool, collected Gieseking turns in a wild performance from the early 1930s (Naxos has transferred this). I have not heard any other performance sound remotely like that, it sounds like Gieseking takes the name of the sonata quite literally even if that wasn't Beethoven's intent. It's entertaining.
What I mean is the box was about $100, or $11 per CD. The premium side as far as box sets go.
Yes, that is indeed one of the best recital CDs. That set of Chopin Ballades is my personal reference. The disc I am referring to is EMI studio with Waldstein and op. 109 (though there are some artifacts like pedal squeaking), I can't recall the 109 from that Ermitage CD too well, but that could also be because I only reached for it to hear the Ballades.
Do you hear the piano as out of tune on that disc? I don't have perfect pitch, and it takes some of those pushed old Russian pianos to mostly notice this kind of thing.
Very surprised to read that, spontaneous would be at the very top of my adjectives to use to describe Lucchesini's cycle. You can even hear places where it sounds like his off the cuff playing pushes things too far, and the following bars are almost "compensating" a bit more reigned in. I saw him play D959 and it was a similar type of playing by feel, rather different from Volodos' god like command.
Where I dock it are in places like Appassionata where Lucchesni plays with good tempo but lacking in recklessness and overall urgency. And I would still point listeners to sonatas like Pathetique that say he was incapable of playing ugly or dynamic enough. This sonata in particular stands out as I was listening to it at live levels and the left hand cords shook things.
If you want to hear Fischer at her least spontaneous try the Schumann Fantasie on EMI, it's stiff and boxy.
I would not necessarily say it's an age thing with Beethoven but the increasing number of hardships through his life. There is little humor or wryness from op. 81a onward, though playfulness does poke through. Is it a person that is wholly sane to write Grosse Fuge in late 1820s? Or variation 3 in op 111?
I lived in the US and Ireland through my twenties, the interest of all my peers was women and partying... introduced the Irish to Beirut, or beer pong if you're not from New England ;D
I don't know why people think there's something special about op 133. There are zillions of pieces in the same vein. To take a famous one, Mozart 394 fugue, not played on a modern piano clearly, try Staier and Schornsheim here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p74LipAPWCw&list=OLAK5uy_nssqUeVo2yz4Yp-VFQQG2Di69sQitt0Y4&index=9&ab_channel=ChristineSchornsheim-Topic)
You'd better point out something from Lucchessini's Beethoven for me to listen to which shows that he's not self conscious.
Op 131 is itself an example of playful humour (I mean not the fugue obvs.), as is op 111/var3. The late music is full of that sort of thing (think Diabellies) And the early music is full of stuff which seems susceptible to being interpreted as somehow suggestive of life's hardships, most obviously the largo from op 10/3 and La Malinconia -- the whole of op 18/3 sounds a bit like late Beethoven to me in fact.
Of the many interpretations of the Op106 Adagio I have listened to, most of which have been mentioned, the one I return to as the most sublime is the Naive recording of François Frédéric Guy. I do not know if the video is the same performance, but offer it for your delectation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LrPUAO3yQo
I agree that late Beethoven is very humorous and quirky (and he has this already in early works but like most aspects they seem mostly more pronounced in the late music, but that K 394 is one of "zillions of pieces in the same vein as op.133" might be the most ridiculous thing I read in a long time... they could hardly be more different.
I cannot think of anything Beethoven wrote in a published work that sounds so much like a Bach/baroque copy as Mozart does here, certainly not op.133 that nowhere sounds like a baroque copy. Maybe the closest is the fugal development section of the op.101 finale or the fuge in the variations op.35, or something in the C major mass. As he wrote somewhere, he always tried for a "poetic" aspect in fugues which does not have to mean lyrical but apparently could also be ugly and percussive as in Diabelli #32 or op.133. It might just mean, not like a schoolroom exercise fugue (no matter how brilliantly done).
Quote from: Jo498 on July 15, 2022, 11:35:07 AM
I agree that late Beethoven is very humorous and quirky (and he has this already in early works but like most aspects they seem mostly more pronounced in the late music, but that K 394 is one of "zillions of pieces in the same vein as op.133" might be the most ridiculous thing I read in a long time... they could hardly be more different.
I cannot think of anything Beethoven wrote in a published work that sounds so much like a Bach/baroque copy as Mozart does here, certainly not op.133 that nowhere sounds like a baroque copy. Maybe the closest is the fugal development section of the op.101 finale or the fuge in the variations op.35, or something in the C major mass. As he wrote somewhere, he always tried for a "poetic" aspect in fugues which does not have to mean lyrical but apparently could also be ugly and percussive as in Diabelli #32 or op.133. It might just mean, not like a schoolroom exercise fugue (no matter how brilliantly done).
So is your "argument" that the salient difference between op 133 and K 394 is just that the former is beautiful and the latter is ugly?
A baroque fugue like op 133
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikf2v7Wp_pA&ab_channel=WarnerClassics
and another
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zij9ifdoVIc&ab_channel=SmaranoOrganAcademy
From Youtube
Ms Fischer performing the Pathetique Sonata.
I must admit this does not match my memory of the Hungaraton set.
https://youtu.be/Zbzut1AKx4Q
Quote from: JBS on July 15, 2022, 12:33:39 PM
From Youtube
Ms Fischer performing the Pathetique Sonata.
I must admit this does not match my memory of the Hungaraton set.
https://youtu.be/Zbzut1AKx4Q
Is that for better or for worse and why?
Quote from: Mandryka on July 15, 2022, 09:50:15 AM
I don't know why people think there's something special about op 133. There are zillions of pieces in the same vein. To take a famous one, Mozart 394 fugue, not played on a modern piano clearly, try Staier and Schornsheim here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p74LipAPWCw&list=OLAK5uy_nssqUeVo2yz4Yp-VFQQG2Di69sQitt0Y4&index=9&ab_channel=ChristineSchornsheim-Topic)
You'd better point out something from Lucchessini's Beethoven for me to listen to which shows that he's not self conscious.
Op 131 is itself an example of playful humour (I mean not the fugue obvs.), as is op 111/var3. The late music is full of that sort of thing (think Diabellies) And the early music is full of stuff which seems susceptible to being interpreted as somehow suggestive of life's hardships, most obviously the largo from op 10/3 and La Malinconia -- the whole of op 18/3 sounds a bit like late Beethoven to me in fact.
I posted several Youtube links of Lucchesini on the previous page. And sorry I misread what you'd written, I see you called Fischer spontaneous, not Lucchesini as being unspontaneous. As for him being self conscious, I don't really understand what this means, I hear the music as flowing with brilliant legato and not hesitating/thinking about what he is playing. Self conscious to me is something that is overly mannered and tinkered with- ECM Schiff, some Brendel, Igor Levit come to mind. You said over refined and that I can see, but I also hear this in everything Kempff Beethoven related and it doesn't make his performances any lesser. I also did give the example of Pathetique Sonata on the previous page that Lucchesini can play ugly when called for, there are many other moments of rather powerful left hand playing throughout.
Among those three pieces you posted I hear nothing in common with op. 133 other than they are all fugues, this piece isn't heralded as something extraordinary because Beethoven wrote a fugue. One that might actually be a better example is BWV 1065. This is really dumbing things down and I could say a Haydn symphony being in sonata form and Mahler utilizing it in his symphonies make these analogous. No it's the sum of many things that made op. 133
sound like nothing else that came before it and possibly nothing else that came after it for many decades. I hate appeal to authority but Schoenberg is about a fine an authority that ever existed, and he praised it numerous times and not any other run of the mill fugue.
Jo498 - all true, I was thinking just in the context of the piano sonatas as this was what was being discussed.
Quote from: aligreto on July 15, 2022, 02:13:04 PM
Is that for better or for worse and why?
The video is better; none of the choppiness or sense of micromanagement that put me off on the Hungaraton. I wouldn't use the word spontaneous but at least I can see why people think highly of her playing.
I should dig out the set (or at least listen to some of ones uploaded to Youtube) since it's been a few years.
Quote from: hvbias on July 13, 2022, 03:11:27 PM
What are the dramatic sonatas for you? I find Appassionata particularly problematic in vast majority of pianists hold back the reigns. The gold standard for me is Richter from December 23, 1960, an unparalleled account.
I also thought that but it has been supplanted by another Neuhaus student - Emil Gilels. Not the rather tame version on DGG but a recording of a similar vintage to Richter's. It's a live performance in Moscow from 14 January 1961. It's equally as electrifying as Richter's and while both pianists do some parts better than the other, I feel that Gilels nailed it! However, Richter appears to play the third movement with a bit more clarity though that could be because the Gilels was not as well recorded. You can find the Gilels on Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIrHYoRrsho and I suspect that it might be somewhere on Spotify, Tidal or Qobuz but will take a bit of searching. YT also has a live recording from the Prague festival of 1954 that's worth a listen.
Quote from: JBS on July 15, 2022, 04:19:05 PM
The video is better; none of the choppiness or sense of micromanagement that put me off on the Hungaraton. I wouldn't use the word spontaneous but at least I can see why people think highly of her playing.
I should dig out the set (or at least listen to some of ones uploaded to Youtube) since it's been a few years.
Cheers and thank you for that response.
Beethoven: Piano Sonatas Nos. 5-7 Op. 10 Nos. 1-3 [Fischer]
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71qraR5eNEL._AC_SY450_.jpg)
Well I have decided to continue listening to this set as I do not want to abandon a cycle such as this without giving it due and fair attention [at least more than four sonatas anyway].
I have determined to temper my listening with all of the advice that I have been given here recently as I listened to Op. 10 Nos. 1-3.
Taking on board this advice has changed my attitude slightly but enough for these presentations to become more tolerable to my ear. Making "allowances" for pointers from various members has indeed made some difference for me.
A simple adjustment was to turn the volume down while listening, removing some of the "loudness" issues a little.
Another area of "improvement", since it has been pointed out, has been my appreciation of Fischer's sensitivity in the respective slow movements of these works. Yes, there is also heavy piano banging but I now hear some of that energetic drive that has been mentioned.
Beethoven: Piano Sonata No. 8 Op. 13 "Pathetique" [Fischer]
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I am very much hearing more of the spontaneity from Fischer alluded to earlier in the opening movement of this work. In the more animated passages I still suffer with the bass heavy notes of the lower registers but that is obviously a function of the instrument played and/or the recording.
The Adagio was very sensitively and expressively played. I felt, also, that the said lower register notes and chords were well controlled and balanced here.
The final movement was a sparkling performance.
Piano Sonatas Nos. 9 & 10 Opp. 14 Nos. 1 & 2 [Fischer]
I find the outer movements of Op. 14/1 to be robust but not overly assertive. The slow movement was just a tad too robust for my taste, though, in this work.
I simply had to post that I found the playing in all three of the movements of Op. 14/2 to be quite beguiling. It had charm and a lightness of touch for the greater part throughout the work that I had not heard/noticed before, thus far, in Fischer's playing.
Quote from: aligreto on July 17, 2022, 05:08:12 AM
Beethoven: Piano Sonatas Nos. 5-7 Op. 10 Nos. 1-3 [Fischer]
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Well I have decided to continue listening to this set as I do not want to abandon a cycle such as this without giving it due and fair attention [at least more than four sonatas anyway].
I have determined to temper my listening with all of the advice that I have been given here recently as I listened to Op. 10 Nos. 1-3.
Taking on board this advice has changed my attitude slightly but enough for these presentations to become more tolerable to my ear. Making "allowances" for pointers from various members has indeed made some difference for me.
A simple adjustment was to turn the volume down while listening, removing some of the "loudness" issues a little.
Another area of "improvement", since it has been pointed out, has been my appreciation of Fischer's sensitivity in the respective slow movements of these works. Yes, there is also heavy piano banging but I now hear some of that energetic drive that has been mentioned.
Glad you are sticking with her set. I have found that some recordings and even pianists took quite awhile to grow on me. Backhaus's Beethoven wasn't to my taste at first, but it later became one of my favorites. And Richter's recordings did little for me at first and now he is my favorite pianist.
lt was with Beethoven sonata listening that I learned to listen in a diffirent way, to let go of expectations and try my best to take each performance as it comes, rather than comparing it to an ideal version in my head. In this way, I was able to appreciate performances that normally I would shy away from, stuff like Kempff's Beethoven, Backhaus's Beethoven and Arrau's Beethoven. I am grateful for this, for it helped me open my mind to recordings of other works by other composers.
I don't say all of this because I think you
have to like her Beethoven, or even that you
should like it, just wanted to share my experience.
Quote from: aligreto on July 13, 2022, 04:25:07 AM
This is a specific request for assistance with appreciating this specific cycle.
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1. Are you familiar with this cycle?
2. Do you like it or not?
3. What do you consider to be its strengths and/or weaknesses?
1. Yes
2. I love it!
3. Consistency, power and expressivity.
If it helps, I'll leave you a list of the sonatas where I think she truly exels:
Op. 2, Nos 1 +2
Op. 10, Nos 1+2
Op. 14, No 1
Op. 27, Nos 1+2
Op 31, Nos 1, 2, 3
Op. 54
Op. 57
Op. 81a
Op. 90
Op. 101
Op. 109
St Annie's Op 57 smites all comers.
Quote from: Todd on July 23, 2022, 05:35:47 AM
St Annie's Op 57 smites all comers.
Yep, I think it is even better than any of Richter or Gilels recordings, live or studio.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 15, 2022, 12:09:38 PM
So is your "argument" that the salient difference between op 133 and K 394 is just that the former is beautiful and the latter is ugly?
No. One is clearly a stylistic baroque copy and the other one is a piece the connoiseurs who Mozart had written his style copies for 40 years earlier could not make head or tails of. And still not for another 50 or more years with two more generations of Mendelssohn etc. writing solid stylistic copies in their P & F and choral pieces. So almost nobody before you could perceive the strong similarity and that there are dozens or hundreds of pieces like op.133. They all wrongly took it for a strange piece pretty much unlike everything else they knew...
Quote from: George on July 23, 2022, 05:19:03 AM
Glad you are sticking with her set. I have found that some recordings and even pianists took quite awhile to grow on me. Backhaus's Beethoven wasn't to my taste at first, but it later became one of my favorites. And Richter's recordings did little for me at first and now he is my favorite pianist.
lt was with Beethoven sonata listening that I learned to listen in a diffirent way, to let go of expectations and try my best to take each performance as it comes, rather than comparing it to an ideal version in my head. In this way, I was able to appreciate performances that normally I would shy away from, stuff like Kempff's Beethoven, Backhaus's Beethoven and Arrau's Beethoven. I am grateful for this, for it helped me open my mind to recordings of other works by other composers.
I don't say all of this because I think you have to like her Beethoven, or even that you should like it, just wanted to share my experience.
Thank you for that particular post. I understand your experiences fully and you have articulated them very well. In fact I largely share your experiences but in other genres and with other composers. I listen to and enjoy music now that I would not even have contemplated twenty years ago.
My single issue in fifty years of listening to music is solo piano music particularly when played on a modern, loud instrument. I do not want to keep banging on about this but it has been thus for about forty nine years of those listening years. The genre is my issue, to be honest, not the music itself or, to be fair, the pianists [for the most part]. I, in comparison, liked Backhaus as soon as I heard him. So to have abandoned Annie Fischer at a relatively early point in the cycle would simply have been unfair.
Quote from: George on July 23, 2022, 05:34:34 AM
If it helps, I'll leave you a list of the sonatas where I think she truly exels:
Op. 2, Nos 1 +2
Op. 10, Nos 1+2
Op. 14, No 1
Op. 27, Nos 1+2
Op 31, Nos 1, 2, 3
Op. 54
Op. 57
Op. 81a
Op. 90
Op. 101
Op. 109
Quote from: Todd on July 23, 2022, 05:35:47 AM
St Annie's Op 57 smites all comers.
Thank you both for your recommendations.
Having learned what I have learned at this early point from this thread I do intend to return to Op. 2 when I have completed the full cycle. I want to see if I have been too unfair after hopefully gleaning more appreciation for Fischer's style.
I also look forward with anticipation to Fischer's Op. 57 as this seems to be a strong recommendation.
Piano Sonatas Nos. 11 & 12 Opp. 22 & 26 [Fischer]
Piano Sonata No. 11 Op. 22: Robust playing from Fischer with a heavily rumbling lower left hand sonority.
I found the playing in the opening movement of Op. 26 to be quite delicate of touch and refined of expression.
Piano Sonatas Nos. 13 & 14 Op. 27/1-2
I thought that the playing in No. 13 Op. 27/1 was quite refined and expressive. I also thought that it was well balanced sonically once I turned down the volume a tad in the second movement.
Fischer's opening movement to the "Moonlight" sonata is wonderfully delicate, tender and expressive. I find that her presentation of the second movement is also very well executed with much poise and balance. The performance of the final movement is certainly taken at speed but it is exhilarating and powerful and displays her skills to great effect. I had feared that the music would have been drowned in the thunderous rumblings of the lower register keys but these fears were not realised, thankfully. The performance, for me, of this sonata has been the best to date in the cycle thus far. Excellent!
Quote from: aligreto on July 28, 2022, 05:51:28 AM
Piano Sonatas Nos. 13 & 14 Op. 27/1-2
I thought that the playing in No. 13 Op. 27/1 was quite refined and expressive. I also thought that it was well balanced sonically once I turned down the volume a tad in the second movement.
Fischer's opening movement to the "Moonlight" sonata is wonderfully delicate, tender and expressive. I find that her presentation of the second movement is also very well executed with much poise and balance. The performance of the final movement is certainly taken at speed but it is exhilarating and powerful and displays her skills to great effect. I had feared that the music would have been drowned in the thunderous rumblings of the lower register keys but these fears were not realised, thankfully. The performance, for me, of this sonata has been the best to date in the cycle thus far. Excellent!
Great news!
Out of the dozens of versions that I have heard, her Moonlight, along with Lupu's, is my favorite performance of the Moonlight sonata.
Quote from: George on July 28, 2022, 08:04:30 AM
Great news!
Out of the dozens of versions that I have heard, her Moonlight, along with Lupu's, is my favorite performance of the Moonlight sonata.
Yes, I felt inherently that it was special.
Piano Sonata No. 15 Op. 28 [Fischer]
Fisher's playing of Op. 28 is slightly on the earnest and the assertive side in my opinion but her playing is also very fluid. Her left hand touch is ardent but not overpowering. The sound between the registers is well balanced. She is particularly chirpy in the Scherzo movement. She gets a bit robust in the final movement but I am sure that people love that. I turned the volume down a tad and I did enjoy it.
I am posting this comment separately merely to make a point :)
Perhaps because I have been exposed to half of it by now but I must admit to warming to Annie Fischer's Beethoven Piano Sonata cycle. It is growing on me slowly.
This time another specific question please:
I have read from previous posts on this thread that Annie Fischer recorded this Hungaroton cycle over many years. Can anyone tell me please whether or not she recorded them chronologically over that period or was it more haphazard than that?
Quote from: aligreto on July 30, 2022, 06:36:32 AM
This time another specific question please:
I have read from previous posts on this thread that Annie Fischer recorded this Hungaroton cycle over many years. Can anyone tell me please whether or not she recorded them chronologically over that period or was it more haphazard than that?
That cannot be definitively answered by anyone not at the label or involved with the recordings, but based on internet rumors and potentially informed comments from critics, it was very haphazard, with recordings of some individual sonatas spread over years. There has never been any indication that the sonatas were recorded in chronological order.
Quote from: Todd on July 30, 2022, 06:46:46 AM
That cannot be definitively answered by anyone not at the label or involved with the recordings, but based on internet rumors and potentially informed comments from critics, it was very haphazard, with recordings of some individual sonatas spread over years. There has never been any indication that the sonatas were recorded in chronological order.
Thank you very much for your quick response and for the information.
Piano Sonata No. 16 Op. 31/1 - The playing style is taut and robust but fluid in the opening movement of Op. 31/1. The opening movement can be particularly assertive, even aggressive in places. Fisher plays with great feeling and expression in the slow movement. Her supreme pianism is on full show in the final movement.
Piano Sonata No. 17 Op. 31/2 - This is a wonderfully thoughtful and considered presentation. I think that Fischer does a very fine job with the music here. Her execution of it is excellent to my uneducated ear.
Piano Sonata No. 18 Op. 31/3 - Fischer is overall, once again, robust and assertive in her playing here. However, I do not find her playing to be overly ponderous but rather exciting here. It is very fluid and it has a great sense of drive to it. I did not favour the interpretation of the music in the slow movement. It was just a tad too robust for me. I think that it would have been better served with a little more delicacy of expression.
Piano Sonata No. 19 Op. 49/1 - The playing throughout Op. 49/1, but particularly in the opening movement, is very fluid and expressive.
Piano Sonata No. 20 Op. 49/2 - The playing touch throughout Op. 49/2 is light but veering on the robust side, for me. It is also, once again, fluid and expressive.
Piano Sonata No. 21 Op. 53 "Waldstein"
My ear would be a little more familiar with this sonata than with many others. I did not like the opening movement here. I think that it lacked fluidity and coherence. I also had to turn the volume down quite a lot to enjoy this in any comfortable way. I also felt that it was a bit rushed. The tempo indication is Allegro con brio but this felt like a Presto or even Prestissimo in places! Yes, I understand that Fischer may be endeavouring to imbue drama and excitement but personally I believe that she missed the mark here.
The slow movement is a great contrast in terms of tone and tempo and Fischer delivers a fine interpretation and performance here for me.
The final movement was also very successful here for me. Fischer is wonderfully delicate and expressive given the dynamic range in this movement. This movement was eminently successful, for me and I enjoyed it a lot.
Piano Sonata No. 22 Op. 54
The opening movement is a tale of two halves here, for me. Fischer commences relatively delicately and expressively in the appropriate sections and indulges in a keyboard banging exercise in the other relevant sections.
The second movement is another example of Fischer's heavy handed pianism, I find. The quality of her playing is never in question, however.
Quote from: aligreto on August 07, 2022, 03:49:51 AM
Piano Sonata No. 21 Op. 53 "Waldstein"
My ear would be a little more familiar with this sonata than with many others. I did not like the opening movement here. I think that it lacked fluidity and coherence. I also had to turn the volume down quite a lot to enjoy this in any comfortable way. I also felt that it was a bit rushed. The tempo indication is Allegro con brio but this felt like a Presto or even Prestissimo in places! Yes, I understand that Fischer may be endeavouring to imbue drama and excitement but personally I believe that she missed the mark here.
The slow movement is a great contrast in terms of tone and tempo and Fischer delivers a fine interpretation and performance here for me.
The final movement was also very successful here for me. Fischer is wonderfully delicate and expressive given the dynamic range in this movement. This movement was eminently successful, for me and I enjoyed it a lot.
I would agree with you regarding the Allegro con brio. She has the Allegro but the brio is missing. This movement needs to give the impression that it is driving relentlessly forward. This is best achieved by a lightness of touch and the correct use of dynamics. The light touch does not come out, especially in the left hand. She also slows down her phrasing in places which also robs the movement of some of its momentum. If I had to use one phrase to characterise her playing "heavy handed in places" comes to mind. Compare her performance with Rudolf Serkin (1952), Solomon and Dubravka Tomsic to get an idea of what I am talking about.
Quote from: Holden on August 08, 2022, 12:58:40 PM
I would agree with you regarding the Allegro con brio. She has the Allegro but the brio is missing. This movement needs to give the impression that it is driving relentlessly forward. This is best achieved by a lightness of touch and the correct use of dynamics. The light touch does not come out, especially in the left hand. She also slows down her phrasing in places which also robs the movement of some of its momentum. If I had to use one phrase to characterise her playing "heavy handed in places" comes to mind. Compare her performance with Rudolf Serkin (1952), Solomon and Dubravka Tomsic to get an idea of what I am talking about.
Thank you for your thoughts, comments and suggestions.
Piano Sonata No. 23 Op. 57 "Appassionata"
A number of people here had advised me of the value of Fisher's account of the "Appassionata" sonata. They were not wrong and I have not been disappointed here.
I believe that this particular sonata suited her playing and interpretation style very well. She is ebullient and assertive, electrifying in places, but the music flows very well and she is well controlled in her execution. Her pianism is wonderful. The slow movement is impressive for me. I think that she really gets at the essence of the music.
I was also pleased that the oftentimes thunderous sound of the particular instrument was not overbearing.
Piano Sonata No. 24 Op. 78: The opening movement is wonderfully expressive and serene. Fischer's lightness and deftness of touch is wonderfully artful here. The same descriptions readily apply to her presentation in the second movement even if the music itself requires a more ardent approach. This was a most enjoyable performance.
Piano Sonata No. 25 Op. 79: Once again Fischer's lightness and deftness of touch are on display in the opening movement. She positively flits effortlessly around the keyboard. Her playing in the slow movement is delicate, beguiling and serene. She simply sparkles and is almost playful in the final movement.
Piano Sonata No. 26 Op. 81a: Fischer plays the opening movement of this sonata with great expression yet nothing is overstated, to my mind. It is clear and well controlled. It is the same in the slow movement where her playing is quite tender, emotionally, I find and it is not often that I have said that. Fischer's playing in the final movement has a sparkling quality to it.
Piano Sonata No. 27 Op. 90: The single comment here that I found Fischer's pianism here to be very admirable. She plays with fluidity and expression if with a little restraint and that is not a bad thing. Her playing of the final movement is particularly fine, engaging and appealing for me.
Piano Sonata No. 28 Op. 101:
I felt that the opening movement was a very fine, even poetic, interpretation. Fischer's touch and sense of expression and interpretation of the music was exemplary here, I felt. The second movement is much more animated but Fischer's interpretation is not overly robust or assertive. It is buoyant and positive in its delivery. The third movement is a total contrast in terms of atmosphere in terms of what has preceded it and Fischer brings the requisite gravitas to the performance without being overbearing or over dramatic in any way. The music in the final movement is spirited and Fischer reflects this admirably by her lively and fluid performance. The music, and its performance, flows wonderfully. This was a very fine performance throughout, I felt.
Piano Sonata No. 29 Op. 106 "Hammerklavier":
Fischer is not an issue here because I simply do not like this work overall. I dislike the hard, percussive nature of the required playing in works such as this. My ear has simply never attuned to it.
It would, therefore, be unfair to comment adversely on any pianist as a result of that held opinion.
Once again, my volume knob was turned down for this sonata.
However, whenever the keyboard does not need to be "hammered" Fischer's touch is very assured and she does drive the music very well; almost unrelentingly at times.
The playing in the wonderfully contrasting slow movement is powerfully lyrical and expressive. I also like its ruminative tone here.
Piano Sonata No. 30 Op. 109:
The opening of the first movement is played wistfully and delicately. I find that there is great fluidity in her playing even when the dynamics increase. She is very vigorous and assertive in the middle movement. The final movement is played quite expressively, poetically almost, in the slower passages. In the quicker tempo passages Fischer's fingers veritably flit energetically and ebulliently over the keys.
Piano Sonata No. 31 Op. 110
I find Fischer's interpretation of the opening movement to be quite tender. This is not an accusation that I have not often levelled against her. I find the playing to be very expressive and even pensive. Yes, her inherent assertive playing style is present but it is not the overriding factor here.
The music is much more robust in the middle movement and therefore Fischer reverts to her more assertive playing style.
The opening of the final, slow, movement is quite solemn and, once again Fischer adapts readily to the different styles required of her. I find that Fischer's playing is very good in this particular movement. However, I also find that she is a bit too left hand heavy for my taste in places here and that the instrument is also too bass boomy in the lower registers.
The listening contrasts between these three movements is quite interesting from the point of view of the different playing styles and interpretation.
Piano Sonata No. 32 Op. 111
From a music point of view the musical language of this work is quite amazing for its time, but that is a testament to the genius of the composer.
From the performance point of view I consider Fischer to be in total command of the music from beginning to end. She dominated the delivery throughout with a quite robust, yet equally sensitive presentation of this wonderful piece of music. Everything seems to be well balanced here. Yes, it is sometimes a robust interpretation in the first movement but I feel that it is quite successful in the context of the music.
Fischer interprets the second movement exceedingly well with all of its complexities. Her infusion of passion is well noted here. Her management of the pacing throughout this movement is very fine. Fischer carries everything off very well. Her pianism is beyond reproach here. I would definitely say that this is my favourite performance of hers in the entire cycle and it is a fitting conclusion to a wonderful and very interesting listening project.
Congratulations and hooray!!!
Quote from: springrite on August 22, 2022, 07:58:03 AM
Congratulations and hooray!!!
Cheers and thank you. I eventually made it through, intact. ;D
Thank you all for your forbearance, patience and perseverance for, with and of me in my maiden exploration of this cycle which turned into something of a blog [which was never my intention!]. I am not, as I have often mentioned, comfortable listening to solo piano music irrespective of who the pianist, or indeed the composer, is. I also have issues with "boomy" modern instruments, particularly in the lower register notes.
My knowledge of the appropriate musical terminology, when discussing my thoughts on these and related matters is not always what it should be and my ignorance can lead to frustration in inappropriately making my point sometimes. I have zero musical training, practically or theoretically. I am sure that I have raised some eyebrows during this odyssey. I hope that I did not upset anyone's equilibrium too much. If I did it was entirely unintentional on my part.
I thank you all for your encouragement, erudition and for the assistance and guidance which has been offered. Through it, this was both an interesting and enjoyable journey for me.
I am very pleased that I instigated this thread and ultimately bore with it. I began by positively not liking what I heard but by taking on board the guidance that was offered my attitude did evolve over the journey. I am not sure whether my reconciliation was due to familiarity, appeasement or revelation!
I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, one who really appreciates this music. This was not intended to be, therefore, a critique of this cycle by me but rather more of a personal journey of exploration and exposure to a pianist who is held in high regard and had not, hitherto, been heard by me in the past, in any music.
Sometimes the obvious has to be pointed out. One also has to be prepared to change one's opinion in the face of overwhelming evidence contrary to one's original perceptions. I did come to appreciate the nature of Fischer's performance style, expressiveness and dynamics. It is not always what I would look for myself. However, I am very pleased to have stuck with and listened to the full cycle. As a number of posters have already commented above, it certainly bears listening to. There were certainly many more good things in this cycle than I at first anticipated.
The singular thing that became more apparent to me as I progressed through the cycle was that Fischer's pianism was of the highest order, at least to my uneducated ear. I felt that she, at all times, endeavoured to be faithful to the music that she was playing.
If you ever want to take this journey again, I would suggest Kempff mono as your guide. Based on what you wrote, I think hid style would suit you.
https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Complete-Piano-Sonatas-L-V/dp/B0000012XC
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/4139TeWJJ8L._SY480_.jpg)
Quote from: George on August 24, 2022, 03:54:41 AM
If you ever want to take this journey again, I would suggest Kempff mono as your guide. Based on what you wrote, I think hid style would suit you.
https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Complete-Piano-Sonatas-L-V/dp/B0000012XC
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/4139TeWJJ8L._SY480_.jpg)
You are quite correct in your assessment of my taste. I have that very set sitting on my shelves.