Thought I'd make a little "new GMG" history by creating the generic Bach thread. Feel free to discuss anything Bach-related here.
My initial purpose for starting the thread, however, was to prompt discussion about the WTC. To which preludes and fugues are you most partial? Of the two volumes, which do you prefer? Any favorite recordings?
The recording that prompted me to create this thread: Friedrich Gulda playing the B minor fugue from Book 1.
damn you, i wanted bach!
Quote from: aquariuswb on April 06, 2007, 02:42:33 PM
My initial purpose for starting the thread, however, was to prompt discussion about the WTC. Of the two volumes, which do you prefer?
I definitely prefer volume 2 - both for playing and listening.
Maciek
as to the wtc query
nothing beats tureck playing the b minor from the first book.
i like glenn gould if i'm in the mood to have my perceptions challenged and see new stuff, andras schiff for competent 'regular' playing, tureck for sating myself in beauty.
i want to get a decent harpsichord recording, any recommendations?
Quote from: facehugger on April 06, 2007, 02:47:41 PM
as to the wtc query
nothing beats tureck playing the b minor from the first book.
i like glenn gould if i'm in the mood to have my perceptions challenged and see new stuff, andras schiff for competent 'regular' playing, tureck for sating myself in beauty.
i want to get a decent harpsichord recording, any recommendations?
There are quite a few great sets out there: Landowska, van Asperen, Leonhardt, Verlet and Walcha. Then there's Robert Levin who plays harpsichord, clavichord, fortepiano and organ in his complete set. My favorite is Glen Wilson on Teldec; unfortunately, his set might be currently oop.
Quote from: Don on April 06, 2007, 09:59:35 PM
There are quite a few great sets out there: Landowska, van Asperen, Leonhardt, Verlet and Walcha. Then there's Robert Levin who plays harpsichord, clavichord, fortepiano and organ in his complete set. My favorite is Glen Wilson on Teldec; unfortunately, his set might be currently oop.
Strongly second the recommendation for the Wilson set!
Don, How's the Levin set?
As good as his Die Kunst der Fuge?Wouldn't mind the multiple instruments - sounds interesting. :)
Q
Quote from: Que on April 06, 2007, 10:59:05 PM
Don, How's the Levin set? As good as his Die Kunst der Fuge?
Wouldn't mind the multiple instruments - sounds interesting. :)
Excuse me for interfering, but
did Levin record Die Kunst der Fuge. New to me.
Levin´s WTC is fast, brilliant, transparent, very good. My favorites though being the same as Don´s - except Landowska. Others to consider are the scholary Moroney and the colourful Dantone.
Quote from: premont on April 06, 2007, 11:26:20 PM
Excuse me for interfering, but did Levin record Die Kunst der Fuge. New to me.
Levin´s WTC is fast, brilliant, transparent, very good. My favorites though being the same as Don´s - except Landowska. Others to consider are the scholary Moroney and the colourful Dantone.
Oopps! ;D Sorry, I had Robert Hill in mind, and not Robert Levin - my bad :-\
Was still interested in comments on Levin's WTC though - thanks!
I've heard Dantone's WTC - made a very positive impression, indeed very colourful.
And your description of Moroney as "scholarly" is also very much to the point - not my preference.
Q
I'm very interested in getting the Levin, after listening to samples on amazon. Sounds completely unboring! I find other early keyboardists like Gilbert and sometimes even Leonhardt to be much too plain.
As for which book I prefer, I really don't know. Book 2 is packed with (occasionally) more complex, and somewhat deeper movements, but some of them aren't quite as fun or beautiful as they're counterparts from book 1 (the B Minor and C# major being one example).
Lately i've been playing and listening to the Bb minor from Book 1 over and over again. It's stunningly emotional yet so cleanly structured. Oh, and Gould is the king as far as this one's concerned!
:)
Quote from: Norbeone on April 07, 2007, 03:21:30 PM
I'm very interested in getting the Levin, after listening to samples on amazon. Sounds completely unboring! I find other early keyboardists like Gilbert and sometimes even Leonhardt to be much too plain.
As for which book I prefer, I really don't know. Book 2 is packed with (occasionally) more complex, and somewhat deeper movements, but some of them aren't quite as fun or beautiful as they're counterparts from book 1 (the B Minor and C# major being one example).
:)
I find talk about preferences between Book 1 and 2 a little odd; it's like asking whether one prefers the 1st half of the Goldbergs to the 2nd half. Anyways, I snap up any recordings I can of each and both Books.
On to the subject of recordings of the Leipzig Chorales, has anyone heard either of these versions?:
Claudio Astronio/Stradivarius
John O'Donnell/Melba
Well, I agree with you that they're both worth hearing in as many takes as possible, and if I had the money I'd probably snatch up all the recordings available too.
But comparing the two volumes to two "halves" of the Goldbergs is completely wrong.
For one thing, we don't even know if volume no. 2 is in fact volume no. 2 - AFAIK the title page of the manuscript was never discovered, and we just have to assume that the title would have been WTC simply because the structure is the same. And we're probably right. But we can't be sure.
Another thing is that the two volumes were composed more than 20 years apart, and vol. 2 is written by a much older composer who is, in a way, summing up his (musical) life. So this is, in many respects, a more mature work (I'm not saying "better"!).
Also, the first volume was prefaced by a note stating an educational purpose of the cycle, while there was probably no such note in the second volume - perhaps Bach wrote this one with a purely musical goal in mind?
And last of all: these are two cycles. They were prepared by Bach as cycles, ie. each volume is meant as a separate, complete entity, so there's absolutely nothing artificial in treating them apart.
I find vol. 2 more appealing because for me it is much more poetic and "subjective" in comparison to the technical "coolness" of some of the pieces in the first volume. Needless to say, I love both of them, as I love and cherish everything Bach had ever written (at least everything that I've heard ;)).
Cheers,
Maciek
Quote from: MrOsa on April 11, 2007, 08:23:22 AM
Well, I agree with you that they're both worth hearing in as many takes as possible, and if I had the money I'd probably snatch up all the recordings available too.
But comparing the two volumes to two "halves" of the Goldbergs is completely wrong.
You are being quite strict. Yes, I know about the dates of composition and the notion of separate cycles. I was just referring to the quality of music that I find equal between the two Books. Also, when I listen to the WTC, I always go with both Books (unless the recording is of just one Book).
For me, both Books represent the best that music has to offer, so I have no interest in differentiating between the quality of each just like I wouldn't make any judgements as to which of my children I love more than the others.
Quote from: Don on April 11, 2007, 09:01:52 AM
You are being quite strict.
Fair enough. Sorry. ;D
Quote from: MrOsa on April 11, 2007, 10:00:59 AM
Fair enough. Sorry. ;D
No problem. Right now I'm listening to Fellner's WTC Bk. 1 - a compelling mix of Bach's warmth and underbelly.
Quoteaquariuswb
The recording that prompted me to create this thread: Friedrich Gulda playing the B minor fugue from Book 1.
I like very much listening to Gustav Leonhardt in the harpsichord in the WTC.
But Gulda is another thing. One of the greatest musical and spiritual experiences I had .
Quote from: val on April 12, 2007, 02:04:26 AM
But Gulda is another thing. One of the greatest musical and spiritual experiences I had .
Yes!
How do the Sonatas and Partitas for Solo Violin rank among the rest of Bach's output?
Quote from: Don Giovanni on May 01, 2007, 10:53:40 AM
How do the Sonatas and Partitas for Solo Violin rank among the rest of Bach's output?
Like one of the countless mountain tops in the Himalayas. :)
Q
Quote from: Don Giovanni on May 01, 2007, 10:53:40 AM
How do the Sonatas and Partitas for Solo Violin rank among the rest of Bach's output?
Right at the top. I must admit to preferring a few of Bach's keyboard works, but that's only because I'm partial to keyboard music.
Don, nice avatar! 8)
Quote from: MrOsa on May 01, 2007, 12:42:34 PM
Don, nice avatar! 8)
Yes, it's the best I've used on this board although I do miss an adorable dog.
Oh my word, the official Bach Bungalow thread is only 2 pages long! :o
I'll think of two quick possible discussions off the top of my head, in an attempt to revive it.
St. John Passion or St. Matthew Passion?
Did Bach compose the Toccata and Fugue in D Minor or not?!?!?
Lame, I know, but give it a whirl anyway ;D
Well, something I wanted to discuss (or read a discussion about) is the one-per-part question in the cantatas. I have this recording by Rifkin and absolutely love it.
(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/f2/6b/41df225b9da036ae3e27b010._AA240_.L.jpg)
It is one of the few recordings I constantly keep on my music player. I didn't realize there was any controversy about these recordings until I saw the Amazon reviews. These cantatas are recorded with one voice per part, a HIP invention, I assume. I didn't realize this, but now I know why I love the sound so much: the voices are so clear and transparent, you can hear all the parts extremely well.
Does anyone know where the idea for the one-per-part cantata came from? Why do HIPsters swear by it? And where can I get my hands on more recordings like this?
Quote from: Catison on September 14, 2007, 04:09:59 PM
Well, something I wanted to discuss (or read a discussion about) is the one-per-part question in the cantatas. I have this recording by Rifkin and absolutely love it.
(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/f2/6b/41df225b9da036ae3e27b010._AA240_.L.jpg)
It is one of the few recordings I constantly keep on my music player. I didn't realize there was any controversy about these recordings until I saw the Amazon reviews. These cantatas are recorded with one voice per part, a HIP invention, I assume. I didn't realize this, but now I know why I love the sound so much: the voices are so clear and transparent, you can hear all the parts extremely well.
Does anyone know where the idea for the one-per-part cantata came from? Why do HIPsters swear by it? And where can I get my hands on more recordings like this?
So far as I understand it, the one-per-part cantata theory is, in much part, Rifkin's, and HIPsters in general do not subscribe to the theory. Here is a brief article on the subject: http://www.bsherman.org/oneperpart.html
I have actually exchanged E-mails with Mr. Rifkin, though the subject matter at hand was Scott Joplin, not Bach!
I have not yet heard the Rifkin one-per-part Bach recordings, but your positive review puts it high on my to-do list.
Quote from: Catison on September 14, 2007, 04:09:59 PM
Does anyone know where the idea for the one-per-part cantata came from? Why do HIPsters swear by it? And where can I get my hands on more recordings like this?
Concerning more recordings that are on voice per part, there's the new Chandos/Purcell cycle of early Bach Cantatas; so far two volumes. I think the new Kuijken/Accent cycle is also one voice. So is Junghanel/Harmonia Mundi and Parrott/EMI.
Paul McCreesh also uses one voice for each part in his recording of the Magnificat and the Easter Oratoria.
I was not very convinced.
Quote from: val on September 15, 2007, 04:00:36 AM
Paul McCreesh also uses one voice for each part in his recording of the Magnificat and the Easter Oratoria.
And his SMP as well.
I've changed my mind about Suzuki, well I was too harsh before. He's no Harnoncourt, but the SQ is amazing, and the effortless light harmonious style is wonderful. :)
Quote from: Don Giovanni on May 01, 2007, 10:53:40 AM
How do the Sonatas and Partitas for Solo Violin rank among the rest of Bach's output?
Quote from: Que on May 01, 2007, 11:00:59 AM
Like one of the countless mountain tops in the Himalayas. :)
8)
I just noticed that the last issue of Suzuki's cantatas are in SACD. Is BIS going to re-release his previous volumes in SACD as well? I hope he's going to finish this series soon, i'd love to have all of the cantatas in modern sound. I own the Harnoncourt and i must confess i'm kinda sick of it. For some inexplicable reason, most of it just sounds out of tune, and i still can't get around it, even after so many years. I have the same problem with a lot of Loenhardt's recordings, including his keyboard music. It's annoying.
Quote from: Norbeone on September 14, 2007, 03:41:08 PM
Did Bach compose the Toccata and Fugue in D Minor or not?!?!?
I personally think he did. The toccata might be a bit controversial but it's hard to believe anybody but Bach could have wrote the fugue. If there was another composer able to write organ music at that level we would have known of him by now...
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on September 15, 2007, 08:50:30 AM
I just noticed that the last issue of Suzuki's cantatas are in SACD. Is BIS going to re-release his previous volumes in SACD as well? I hope he's going to finish this series soon, i'd love to have all of the cantatas in modern sound. I own the Harnoncourt and i must confess i'm kinda sick of it. For some inexplicable reason, most of it just sounds out of tune, and i still can't get around it, even after so many years. I have the same problem with a lot of Loenhardt's recordings, including his keyboard music. It's annoying.
Are you saying that the Suzuki cycle on SACD is incomplete? I never looked into that, dang. Well if they don't do SACD releases of the previous volumes (I have no idea if they will or not) certainly there are other recordings from other artists that you can use to fill the gaps, right?
Quote from: DavidW on September 15, 2007, 09:10:22 AM
Are you saying that the Suzuki cycle on SACD is incomplete?
At volume 34 (which i think it's the last one released) he's around 50 cantatas short, which means there's at least another 10 volumes to go, give or take. Only his very last recordings are on SACD.
Quote from: DavidW on September 15, 2007, 09:10:22 AM
certainly there are other recordings from other artists that you can use to fill the gaps, right?
I don't know. I tried the Koopman and i thought it was average at best. I also have the complete set which came with the brilliant box, which is serviceable, but nothing more. Those are the most recent recordings along with Suzuki. I wish he would stop getting side tracked and focus on completing the set.
Quote from: Catison on September 14, 2007, 04:09:59 PM
And where can I get my hands on more recordings like this?
The Cantus Coln recording of the mass in b minor is one voice per part, and i love it.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on September 15, 2007, 09:19:47 AM
I don't know. I tried the Koopman and i thought it was average at best. I also have the complete set which came with the brilliant box, which is serviceable, but nothing more. Those are the most recent recordings along with Suzuki. I wish he would stop getting side tracked and focus on completing the set.
Well that's hardly an exhaustive survey! Have you tried Herreweghe (spelling?)? Gardiner? Richter? You don't have to do it by complete box, you can shop outside of the box, it might be rewarding. :)
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on September 15, 2007, 08:53:48 AM
I personally think he did. The toccata might be a bit controversial but it's hard to believe anybody but Bach could have wrote the fugue. If there was another composer able to write organ music at that level we would have known of him by now...
My sentiments exactly.
Quote from: James on September 16, 2007, 06:59:12 AM
I never liked it .... it's widely thought not to be by him. I mean ... listen to it. :P
Huhh? ::) If it really is
widely thought not to be by him, then that fact escaped my attention.
Besides that, I fully agree with
Don and
JdP: firstly it sounds like Bach, secondly I wouldn't have a clue what other composer could possibly be the author.
Q
Quote from: Que on September 16, 2007, 07:11:20 AM
Huhh? ::)
Yeah, I know the feeling.
Quote from: Que
If it really is widely thought not to be by him, then that fact escaped my attention.
But hey, that is possible, is it not? :)
It all 'begins' with: Peter Williams,
BWV 565: a toccata in D minor for organ by J. S. Bach?, Early Music, vol. 9, July
1981, page 330-337.
Quote from: Que
Besides that, I fully agree with Don and JdP: firstly it sounds like Bach, secondly I wouldn't have a clue what other composer could possibly be the author.
But it seems that many scholars think the piece is very different from almost all the other 'original' Bach keyboard pieces. They think it's a work by Johann Peter Kellner (1705-1772).
Try this (it's in German, BTW):
http://www.johann-peter-kellner.de/htm/werke/emele.htm
But there are many many other sites that discuss this matter (Google!). For instance - of course - on various Wikipedia's:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toccata_and_Fugue_in_D_minor
And, in your favourite language: ;)
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toccata_et_Fuga_in_d-moll_(BWV_565)
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Peter_Kellner
Mean temperament in the music of Bach, I think, was discussed in the old GMG. It might be well to bring the subject up again as it is a terribly important issue. I was really astonished by the revelations of this article and website:
http://bach.tuning.googlepages.com/introduction
The number of spirals in the heading of the WTC, handwritten by Bach, referred to the beats of a mean or rather "well" tempered keyboard:
"Tuning is performed for some twelve semitone contiguous range.
The small knot is the basic tempering unit, which denotes one beat per second, while the double knot indicates two beats per second (or equivalently one beat per second in the octave below).
The ends of the spiral denote the interval closing the tuning circle and two cases are shown beating once per second (left) and twice per second (right)."
There's some incredible stuff here too:
http://www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html
"Debated for thousands of years, temperament is an arcane subject to most musicians today. This may be due to 20th century use of Equal Temperament. With equal harmony and dissonance everywhere in the scale, there is little to debate about different keys' characters. As a result, most modern ears have become accustomed to an ever-present, mild dissonance in keyboard harmony, never hearing a harsh third or a pure one, either."
This has to do mainly with the tuning of thirds as I understand it. In certain keys like C, the major thirds in "well" tuning are pure, or free of beats. Hearing or playing the WTC according to Bach's tuning must be a revelation. This of course would contradict what Schoenberg had to say about tonality, since everything is transposable, all tonal music is in the key of C.
Interest in this must be fairly recent (although I ALWAYS had questions about it while studying). Grout dismisses the tuning of Bach in one sentence, saying that he probably preferred equal temperament (although this was not the most popular then). Even Badura-Skoda's book about the Interpretation of Bach at the Keyboard (1990) says virtually nothing about the differing systems of tuning.
Any comments? I find this subject REALLY exciting.
ZB
Quote from: Marc on September 16, 2007, 09:45:03 PM
Yeah, I know the feeling.
But hey, that is possible, is it not? :)
Well, I did already know of doubts about the authenticity of Bach authorship being expressed by
some.
In the meantime I also already googled on the issue ;D (but thanks!), and found no evidence of a general,
widely held sentiment that this is not by Bach. So my points still stands. This cannot be dismissed as a piece by Bach through a "everbody thinks so" kind of statement.
The article on Wikipedia is quite interesting and give us reason to assume that all things considered the evidence weighs in Bach's favour. If a Bach scholar like Christophe Wolff thinks it's Bach (he wrote a great Bach biography btw), and my ears tell me the same message - I'll take it for Bach. :)
BTW whoever wrote it, it still is and would be a tremendous piece of music - no matter how "popular" it is. I suspect it's status as a Bach icon, plays an important factor is this story. Similar doubts could easily be cast over other works by Bach - but now that wouldn't exactly create the same kind of stir, would it? 8)
Q
Quote from: Que on September 16, 2007, 11:26:02 PM
BTW whoever wrote it, it still is and would be a tremendous piece of music - no matter how "popular" it is.
Yep, I don't understand how that fugue could be considered anything other than a musical wonder...
Quote from: Que on September 16, 2007, 11:26:02 PM
Well, I did already know of doubts about the authenticity of Bach authorship being expressed by some.
In the meantime I also already googled on the issue ;D (but thanks!), and found no evidence of a general, widely held sentiment that this is not by Bach. So my points still stands. This cannot be dismissed as a piece by Bach through a "everbody thinks so" kind of statement.
Well, I just thought: I'm going to throw the cudgel through the chicken coop. ;D
Quote from: Que
The article on Wikipedia is quite interesting and give us reason to assume that all things considered the evidence weighs in Bach's favour. If a Bach scholar like Christophe Wolff thinks it's Bach (he wrote a great Bach biography btw), and my ears tell me the same message - I'll take it for Bach. :)
Yes, I chose that English Wiki-article on purpose. To me, it
is still Bach, because somewhere inside I just fail to believe it is
not! It's Bach's most popular tune, and I love it since my childhood days.
But the word of Christoph Wolff isn't holy. And, also, I believe that there were a lot of other baroque composers capable of writing very good stuff. They're somehow downgraded, because Bach nowadays is believed to be one of the greatest of all time. But Bach himself had great admiration for a lot of his contemporaries, and was inspired by them. Let's give them some credit! Why wouldn't Kellner be able to write such a fugue? Are his other works that bad? Do we really know his other works, BTW?
Quote from: Que
BTW whoever wrote it, it still is and would be a tremendous piece of music - no matter how "popular" it is.
Yeah, agreed.
Quote from: Que
I suspect it's status as a Bach icon, plays an important factor is this story. Similar doubts could easily be cast over other works by Bach - but now that wouldn't exactly create the same kind of stir, would it? 8)
No, probably not. But on the other hand, any piece in Bach's handwriting (or, at least, a part of it) seems to be able to give people the craziest ideas. Are there still people trying to prove that BWV 246 (Lukas-Passion)
could be a youth work of J.S. Bach?
Quote from: Marc on September 17, 2007, 09:10:11 AM
I believe that there were a lot of other baroque composers capable of writing very good stuff.
Ya? Name one.
Quote from: Que on September 16, 2007, 11:26:02 PM
I suspect it's status as a Bach icon, plays an important factor is this story. Similar doubts could easily be cast over other works by Bach - but now that wouldn't exactly create the same kind of stir, would it? 8)
Bullseye, Q...
Quote from: MarcI believe that there were a lot of other baroque composers capable of writing very good stuff.
Quote from: Josquin des PrissyYa? Name one.
Quote from: Marc
Stravinsky.
I knew it! Stravinsky has a Tardis! ;D
Quote from: Marc on September 17, 2007, 09:10:11 AM
Well, I just thought: I'm going to throw the cudgel through the chicken coop. ;D
Yes, I chose that English Wiki-article on purpose. To me, it is still Bach, because somewhere inside I just fail to believe it is not! It's Bach's most popular tune, and I love it since my childhood days.
But the word of Christoph Wolff isn't holy. And, also, I believe that there were a lot of other baroque composers capable of writing very good stuff.
Yes, many others wrote "very good stuff". The problem is that the work in question is much better than very good. I can't think of anyone who could have composed it other than Bach.
Quote from: Marc on September 17, 2007, 09:48:12 AM
Stravinsky.
This would be a great answer if the subject at hand wasn't organ music, not baroque as a whole.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on September 19, 2007, 09:21:42 AM
This would be a great answer [....]
Thanks! :)
Quote from: Josquin des Prez
[....] if the subject at hand wasn't organ music, not baroque as a whole.
I must admit I wasn't really thinking about organ music only. But I was a little cautious, because I remembered your rather negative remarks about Händel in another thread (had something to do with (fe)male voices in opera), and Händel would be the first composer I'd think of as one of those baroque fellers that were capable of writing good stuff. So I thought: let's not mention him. :-X
But, just organ, let me think.... I've been listening to organ music lately, composed by (for instance) Buxtehude, Böhm, Bruhns, Krebs and CPE Bach, and I've been enjoying it very much. Also I've been to concerts where vocal music was performed, composed by Keiser and Fasch. Also much better than I expected beforehand.
JS Bach is my favourite composer, and although I'm really only an enthousiastic layman, from the first time I heard his music I felt that something very special was happening. I was about twelve/thirteen years old then, and started to listen to other baroque composers, too, on the radio. But Bach remained my favourite: it seemed like there was much more happening. One had to listen to it again and again, and still one could discover something new. Every 'voice' or 'part' was as important as the other one, or so it seemed. That's why I preferred his music as a youngster, compared to (f.i.) Telemann and other baroque composers. As a result I started to neglect them completely.
Now, I'm old, and bored :P with life (and myself :'()), and now I'm listening to some of these composers and thinking: hey, they're not Bach, but they're still
capable of writing good stuff! Let's rediscover them!
And I'm having good fun with it. I've also rediscovered the organ and harpsichord, because for ages I preferred the piano. Years and years ago a teacher of mine said:
so, you like Mahler, eh? Let's wait some twenty years, when you're old and grey, and then you want nothing else but Renaissance, Baroque and 18th century music. Just a matter of time.
He's almost proven right. I want my organ and I love my harpsichord. But when the snow is falling, and the city lamp-posts are burning, I still long for my
Lied der Nacht.
Marc, thanks for a very enjoyable and at times even poetic post! :)
I'm in a similar fase - now I nearly explored all Bach, I'm branching out into unknown territories of the baroque. Beyond Bach, so to speak...! ;D
But I do not consider myself old ....yet 8)
Q
Quote from: Que on September 19, 2007, 10:57:39 AM
But I do not consider myself old ....yet 8)
I'm not that old, either. It's just me:
Weinen, Klagen, Sorgen, Zagen. :D
Quote from: Marc on September 19, 2007, 11:24:27 AM
I'm not that old, either. It's just me: Weinen, Klagen, Sorgen, Zagen. :D
Ah...great cantata.... :-*
Q
The best Bach cantatas are the most incredibly beautiful music my ears ever have had the bliss to encounter.
Not every cantate is as inspired as those undeniable highlights like BWV 4, 22, 78, 106, et cetera. But when Bach had an off-day, he was still better than most of his colleages.
Beware, though, because there has been a tendency among a certain group of malicious conductors to make the terrible mistake of thinking that Bach wrote his cantatas and passions for one voice per part. This curious misunderstanding has been growing eversince a dubious publication by Joshua Rifkin appeared, around 1981. McCreesh, Junghänel and Rifkin himself are famous for conducting these one-voice-per-part-performances. Usually, these interpretations have a lot of merits, but they fail horribly in being true to Bach's wishes. It simply contradicts the whole aesthetic of baroque music.
The Koopman-cycle is about the closest you can get to authenticity. The sublime Suzuki-cycle is essential for those who favor sheer beauty to authenticity. You gotta love it. For most cantatas Suzuki delivers angel-like performances. One wonders: can this get any more beautiful? Somewhere in between appears the cycle by Gardiner, who sometimes makes shocking musical interpretations, but is experienced enough to deliver outstanding performances overall.
Forget and throw away Harnoncourt/Leonhardt. For some change, buy cantata-cd's by Herreweghe.
Useful advice for everybody who, like me, once made the grave mistake of buying the complete Brilliant-cycle by Leusink: remove the front and back covers, throw away the cd's, and use the empty jewel cases to replace broken ones.
The 'whig head' rules.
Quote from: Frellie on October 05, 2007, 07:29:55 AM
... the terrible mistake of thinking that Bach wrote his cantatas and passions for one voice per part. This curious misunderstanding has been growing eversince a dubious publication by Joshua Rifkin appeared, around 1981. McCreesh, Junghänel and Rifkin himself are famous for conducting these one-voice-per-part-performances. Usually, these interpretations have a lot of merits, but they fail horribly in being true to Bach's wishes. It simply contradicts the whole aesthetic of baroque music.
Why, if I may ask?
Quote from: premont on October 05, 2007, 07:35:55 AM
Why, if I may ask?
For one thing, there is a document Bach submitted to the Leipzig council around 1730 where he explicitly stated that 3 voices to a part are the minimum he considered desirable for choral works. For another, if OOVP is adopted, the distinction between choral and solo movements disappears. I have it also on anecdotal evidence from a friend that when Rifkin did the B minor mass in live performance OOVP, the singers were all complaining about the stress to their vocal cords.
But I have no intention of "throwing away" any of the CDs in the Harnoncourt/Leonhardt set. They have their flaws, but I'd choose those interpretations over the too-beautiful Suzuki style.
Hmmm ... but for what ensemble was the Mass in b minor composed? Leipzig or Dresden (with a catholic court)? The title page of the performing score is believed to be written by the Dresdner Gottfried Rausch, who also assisted the Dresdner court composer Jan Dismas Zelenka. Compared to the amount of forces Bach was used to in Leipzig, the Dresdner Capella was known to be a larger consort . So .... was this piece really meant to be OVPP?
IMHO, the big issues in the OVPP discussions in Bach cantatas are related to the problem of concertists and ripienists, and the problem of copy sharing. In the case of copy sharing it is very well possible that there were both concertists and ripienists. The concertists sang both in the choir parts and in the solo pieces, and in the choruses they were joined by the ripienists. The number of original cantata scores that are still available nowadays only survived in OVPP. This would mean (for instance) that the ripienists were standing on the right and the left of the concertist, and were watching the score with him. (I think this is what Wolff and Koopman think is historically right.)
But we know that Bach complained about not having enough good singers. So some scholars think that in many cases he was forced to perform his cantatas in OVPP, and that this is the real reason why the the original scores only survived in OVPP. They believe that the amount of 16 or 12 good singers that Bach is writing about, had to be divided over the four Lutheran churches in Leipzig. (I think this is what Rifkin and Parrott believe.)
BTW: as far as I understand, in the non-OVPP theory, the concertists both sang the choir and the solo parts, which means that they had - indeed - a tough and busy singing job. So, as far as I'm concerned, the fact of an anecdotical evidence in the 20th/21st century "[....] when Rifkin did the B minor mass in live performance OOVP, the singers were all complaining about the stress to their vocal cords[....]" is no historical proof for the fact that the (rather shorter) Bach cantatas couldn't possibly be meant to be OVPP.
I would also like to add another thing. Most scholars (including Rifkin and Parrott, I believe) are searching for the historical truth. Composers wrote their music for the amount of musicians available, not for the amount they were somehow wishing for. So, when Rifkin and Parrott say: Bach wrote his cantatas mainly for OVPP ensemble, this doesn't necessarely mean that Bach himself was extremely happy about that. They only try to give a historical description, not a prescription. But sure, they believe their assumptions are right, and that's why they want to perform these works in the same amounts of forces that Bach used. Personally, I don't see there is anything wrong with that. The problem is though: there are some followers of HIP-theories who are more R.C. than the pope. It somehow becomes a religion for them, and they call every freethinker a sinner. Unfortunately, this attitude is not very helpful for creating an interesting discussion, IMHO.
And one thing keeps puzzling me: if they really want it to sound as historically authentic as possible, why don't the sctrict OVPP-believers use (good) boy sopranos (and altos) for their ensembles?
Well, that's all, folks!
(For today, that is.) ;D
I'm off to bed. I think my last choice of music today will be BWV 8 Liebster Gott, wenn werd' ich sterben?. ;)
Quote from: premont on October 05, 2007, 07:35:55 AM
Why, if I may ask?
Thank you, Larry, for providing some arguments. A short word about the
baroque aesthetic: Bach may not have been Händel, who would've been most happy when he could have blown up Westminster Cathedral with a thunderous chorus from the Messiah, but Bach also wanted to impress people (and God) with his opening and closing choruses. When sung by four voices, they don't sound impressive, they sound pious at best. Baroque music is about the best way to demonstrate and evoke an affection/emotion. Some sorrowful arias are meant to make you weep softly, and some choruses are meant to make you want to jump from your chair and sing along for the greater glory of God, or the Queen for that matter. Those parts are meant for a choir that can make an impression.
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on October 05, 2007, 08:00:14 AM
But I have no intention of "throwing away" any of the CDs in the Harnoncourt/Leonhardt set. They have their flaws, but I'd choose those interpretations over the too-beautiful Suzuki style.
I can understand. Personally, I find too little beauty in the H/L-set. The combination of Koopman and Suzuki works best for me. With some excursions to Coin, Herreweghe and Gardiner.
Quote from: Frellie on October 05, 2007, 12:19:28 PM
Thank you, Larry, for providing some arguments. A short word about the baroque aesthetic: Bach may not have been Händel, who would've been most happy when he could have blown up Westminster Cathedral with a thunderous chorus from the Messiah, but Bach also wanted to impress people (and God) with his opening and closing choruses. When sung by four voices, they don't sound impressive, they sound pious at best.
That's just a personal opinion. Mine is that they can easily sound impressive and not pious.
A little less rigidity might be in order. I am quite happy that versions are available in both OVPP and larger forces - the best of both worlds.
Bach is insanely good.
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on October 05, 2007, 08:00:14 AM
For one thing, there is a document Bach submitted to the Leipzig council around 1730 where he explicitly stated that 3 voices to a part are the minimum he considered desirable for choral works.
Parrott's book
The Essential Bach Choir and Rifkin's own article
Bach's Choral Ideal obviously present a different reading of the
Entwurff from the one adopted above. Parrott and Rifkin believe that the "3 voices to a part minimum" really refers to
a roster from which to draw his singer(s) for each performance rather than the actual number needed or desired in each occasion. Don't think the OVPP theory can be established with any creditablity if it can't even reasonably address Bach's own words, but it has.
BTW, Breitkopf & Härtel's new score of the Mass in b minor has Joshua Rifkin as the editor (2006). Does this mean his view on the music is being acknowledged? I think so.
Quote from: Don on October 06, 2007, 11:08:29 AM
A little less rigidity might be in order. I am quite happy that versions are available in both OVPP and larger forces - the best of both worlds.
Exactly. An important comment that should be taken into everyone's consideration.
Nice, James. :)
I'll add one by scientist Lewis Thomas:
"I would vote for Bach, all of Bach, [to be] streamed out into space, over and over again. We would be bragging of course, but it is surely excusable to put the best possible face on at the beginning of such an acquaintance. We can tell the harder truths later."
;D
Two questions: Does anyone know who J.S. Bach's musical heroes were, or any composers he particularly admired? Is there any indication that he was aware of his own importance?
Quote from: Guido on October 09, 2008, 09:23:13 AM
Does anyone know who J.S. Bach's musical heroes were, or any composers he particularly admired?
Buxtehude was one.
Quote from: Guido on October 09, 2008, 09:23:13 AM
Does anyone know who J.S. Bach's musical heroes were, or any composers he particularly admired?
Buxtehude was his youthful hero. He also came to admire Vivaldi and Couperin early on, but i think at that point he was already aware of his own superiority. My guess is that he favored Handel the most among his peers considering he made a conscious effort to meet him, but it's hard to tell.
Quote from: Guido on October 09, 2008, 09:23:13 AM
Two questions: Does anyone know who J.S. Bach's musical heroes were, or any composers he particularly admired? Is there any indication that he was aware of his own importance?
In addition to those already mentioned, he admired Zelenka quite a lot (and probably knew him personally). From what I've heard, Rameau also. Supposedly Forkel's bio (the first, from about 1800) contains a list of contemporaries he liked, given by his son CPE, but I haven't read it...maybe more advanced Bachologists can give details.
Another interesting point. Unusually for his time, he took a major interest in older music, and it seems he had a good knowledge of European composers going back a couple of centuries. Among those he admired were Palestrina, Frescobaldi, and Froberger...I would assume also Schütz, the greatest German composer preceding him. His personal music library was said to be massive, one of the best in Germany.
Personally, I'd be curious to know his views (if any) on such figures as Monteverdi, Gabrieli, Purcell, and Scarlatti.
Cheers for these answers - all very interesting.
Just now I was wondering whether anyone had recorded just the chorales, separate from their various sources? It would be wonderful to hear them all in one place, sung by a quality choir, instead of on the piano as one usually studies them.
EDIT: maybe this is what I am talking about:
http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Edition-Vol-23-Chorale/dp/B00004XPLH/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1226454610&sr=8-1
Quote from: Guido on October 09, 2008, 09:23:13 AM
Does anyone know who J.S. Bach's musical heroes were, or any composers he particularly admired?
Buxtehude, Bruhns, Fasch, Weiss and Kuhnau at least.
Can someone tell me why "Original Version" is specified next to most of the tracks?
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/9185211
Thanks.
http://imslp.org/wiki/Chorale_Harmonisations%2C_BWV_250-438_%28Bach%2C_Johann_Sebastian%29
The Breitkopf edition of the complete chorales is one I have seen before and I like the way it is reduced onto two staves - does anyone know if there if there is an index of these anywhere? If not, in which order they are listed? And if not that which numbers are the ones used in John's and Matthew's passions (I know the names, but can't be bothered to trawl through the whole list of them...)
Quote from: opus67 on November 23, 2008, 01:20:47 AM
Can someone tell me why "Original Version" is specified next to most of the tracks?
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/9185211
Thanks.
No idea, and the concept of "original version" used about a modern piano rendering is difficult to explain.
Hey, thanks for replying, premont. :) Since then, I have seen those words attached to some other Bach-on-the-piano discs as well.
Quote from: premont on March 19, 2009, 10:39:21 AM
the concept of "original version" used about a modern piano rendering is difficult to explain.
Yes, that's what has been bugging me.
Quote from: premont on March 19, 2009, 10:39:21 AM
No idea, and the concept of "original version" used about a modern piano rendering is difficult to explain.
I don't think the statment has anything to do with the performance. These works were not published in Bach's lifetime and I do not believe an autograph manuscript survives. What we have is based on hand copies made by Bach's associates and they may be claiming to have used what they believe is an earlier source.
Quote from: Guido on October 09, 2008, 09:23:13 AM
Two questions: Does anyone know who J.S. Bach's musical heroes were, or any composers he particularly admired?
Add: Sweelinck, Pachelbel, Reincken, Böhm, Marais (with all the other French influences), Johann Christoph Bach (his eldest brother, who taught him), Keiser and Telemann.
Quote from: Guido on October 09, 2008, 09:23:13 AM
Is there any indication that he was aware of his own importance?
That's very difficult to say. But surely there are some indications. For instance: he wouldn't let his employers stop him from leaving and developing himself (Arnstadt, Mühlhausen, Weimar, Cöthen). And he certainly knew that the
Matthäus-Passion and
Mass in b minor were something very special, because he made a carefully edited manuscript (with different colours of ink) of both works. I think he definitely wanted to preserve at least some of his works for posterity.
On which day should Bach's birth be celebrated in this "modern" age?
Wikipedia states that he was born on March 31 as per the New Style (or Gregorian Calendar); and as per the Julian Calendar, on 21st March. On the day before yesterday (it's the 23rd here already), I saw an Internet radio station celebrate his birth, and just to double-check, I went to jsbach.org, which also claims that he was born on the 21st. :S
Quote from: opus67 on March 19, 2009, 10:49:21 AM
Hey, thanks for replying, premont. :) Since then, I have seen those words attached to some other Bach-on-the-piano discs as well.
Yes, that's what has been bugging me.
Afterthought: "Original version" as opposed to e.g. an arrangement by Busoni.
It would be unnecessary to write this when it is about a harpsichord rendering.
Quote from: premont on March 22, 2009, 12:13:15 PM
Afterthought: "Original version" as opposed to e.g. an arrangement by Busoni.
It would be unnecessary to write this when it is about a harpsichord rendering.
Good point. I'll keep an eye out for harpsichord discs, if any, that has the tag.
Ahhh Bach—
I guess I've held off on contributing to this thread because I hold Bach in such awe. Although a lot of my tastes run to late 19th and 20th Century, I simply adore Bach. No other composer, in my book, represents the kind of perfection that Bach seemed to realize effortlessly.
My love of Bach grew from going to College at William and Mary. In Colonial Williamsburg next door, there were free candlelight organ recitals two nights a week in the old colonial church, complete with a nice graveyard that had the tombstone for my namesake "Col John Page, Ret." Right outside the bell tower when you walked in.
Mozart or Bach? I must admit, I really don't "get" Mozart that much. I've heard this debate, and some people say Bach is too mechanical, but to me that music is beyond human.
Harpischord:
Well Tempered Clavier Book I or II? I guess I lean towards II, but what I've done on my mp3 player is weed out the 10 or so the interested me the least (all in major keys—I love Bach in minor key), and play them on shuffle, so the boundaries don't matter as much.
His concerto for 4 harpsichoards after Vivaldi is fantastic. I like the Vivaldi from el Estro Harmonico, but I love the Bach more! The last movement is so powerful, and the way the strings back the harpsichords is too much! Some of the other harpsichord concerti are great—I like what I think I is the D Minor. (I'm too lazy to check).
2 and 3 part inventions are musts. 2 Pt invention #4 crams so much in so little space.
Organ:
I think I love Bach most on the organ. Some highlights for me, (beyond the obvious ones)
The Passacaglia and Fugue in C Minor, to me, is the cornerstone of western civilization. The relentless development of variations over that simple theme that goes to dazzling heights.
The fugue from the Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue is some of the most life-affirming music I know. It is my refuge in the darkest times.
The Prelude from the "Wedge" is some powerful stuff as well.
I'm also big on the middle movement from the Trio in E Minor.
The opening minute of the Concerto in D Minor (after Vivaldi) may be the single most beautiful minute of organ music ever written.
And last, the "Dorian" Toccata and Fugue doesn't get enough appreciation. The Toccatta is gorgeous—particularly towards the end, and the Fugue may be the heaviest one Bach ever wrote.
Note: There is a lot of free downloadable Bach organ music at: http://www.blockmrecords.org/bach/catalog.php?scope=recorded
This is made available as a grant, and is yours for the listening. I can't say it's the best version of each piece, but an amazing resource.
Brandenburgs:
Okay—I'm predictable—I like 2, 3 and 5 best. And I HATE it when a piano is used on 5.
The first movement of five, before the solo, has some amazing moments, it sounds fluid and natural, and at the same time, mechanically perfect. And 2 and 3 are stellar.
Choral Works:
St. John's or St Matthews? End to end, I like Saint Matthew's better, but the overture on St. John's is really great. Have to love the B Minor Mass, and the Magnificat is great as well.
What's not to like about Bach? I'm not sure if I can gush over his violin concerti as much as those in Vivaldi's El Estro Harmonico, but that is some stiff competition. But is anything of his bad? I'd find that hard to believe. I know I'm leaving out a lot of good stuff of his, but this is the best I can do in one pass.
Quote from: jowcol on March 27, 2009, 01:14:29 PM
Ahhh Bach—
Mozart or Bach? I must admit, I really don't "get" Mozart that much. I've heard this debate, and some people say Bach is too mechanical, but to me that music is beyond human.
I think both Mozart and Bach have almost a God-like, religious impact on listeners. It has something to do with a rigid structure beneath layers and layers of complexity. Its funny to me that later composers who attempted to be romantic/trancendental actually come across as humanist by comparison (maybe not so surprising when we think of the romantic era's enlightenment ideals). Those bourgeois pigs! ;D Ok, just kidding. Their music has its own important place, but it does not surpass Bach in terms of spiritual, out-of-this-world-ness.
Quote from: opus67 on November 23, 2008, 01:20:47 AM
Can someone tell me why "Original Version" is specified next to most of the tracks?
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/9185211
Thanks.
Quote from: premont on March 22, 2009, 12:13:15 PM
Afterthought: "Original version" as opposed to e.g. an arrangement by Busoni.
It would be unnecessary to write this when it is about a harpsichord rendering.
Quote from: opus67 on March 22, 2009, 12:19:13 PM
Good point. I'll keep an eye out for harpsichord discs, if any, that has the tag.
I just noticed recordigns Mozart's symphonies tagged with 'Original Versions.' (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Wolfgang-Amadeus-Mozart-Symphonien-Nr-28-41/hnum/3580923)
Quote from: opus67 on April 08, 2009, 04:28:20 AM
I just noticed recordigns Mozart's symphonies tagged with 'Original Versions.' (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Wolfgang-Amadeus-Mozart-Symphonien-Nr-28-41/hnum/3580923)
Hmmm, I think the tagging of all the movements is a bit exaggerated.
But yes, of some symphonies there are more versions. Funny enough there is no such a tag coupled with no. 40.
I knew more or less about two versions of nos. 31 (two versions of slow movement), 32 (slightly altered as an ouverture), 34 (?? probably referring to the lost menuetto of a so-called 2nd version, maybe KV409, which is sometimes 'guessed' to be this alternative menuetto ??) and 40 (second versions with clarinets). I did not know about no. 33.
Maybe a Mozart-connaisseur at this forum knows something about this .... or has bought this set and read the booklet. :)
But then: don't worry about Wolfie, this is
Bach's Bungalow. ;D
How about his different versions of errr ..... the Johannes-Passion ..... the Brandenburg Concertos ..... some orchestral suites & organ pieces .... ??
Quote from: Marc on April 08, 2009, 12:25:58 PM
But then: don't worry about Wolfie, this is Bach's Bungalow. ;D
How about his different versions of errr ..... the Johannes-Passion ..... the Brandenburg Concertos ..... some orchestral suites & organ pieces .... ??
:) I actually wanted to add that I was not trying to go off-topic with the post.
Quote from: opus67 on April 09, 2009, 05:12:29 AM
:) I actually wanted to add that I was not trying to go off-topic with the post.
Don't worry, no problem to me.
But maybe there's more chance of an answer to your question in a 'genuine' Wolfie-thread. ;)
Quote from: Marc on April 12, 2009, 11:37:09 AM
Don't worry, no problem to me.
But maybe there's more chance of an answer to your question in a 'genuine' Wolfie-thread. ;)
That was just an observation, not a question. :) What I initially thought to be restricted to only keyboard works by Bach was also seen next another to composer's (the name's irrelevant ;)) works.
Quote from: opus67 on April 12, 2009, 06:38:58 PM
That was just an observation, not a question. :) What I initially thought to be restricted to only keyboard works by Bach was also seen next another to composer's (the name's irrelevant ;)) works.
OK. Back to Bach then. :)
BTW: when talking about piano arrangements, I prefer f.i. Kempff to Busoni, although I've always liked the add-ons of the latter in
Ich ruf' zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ, BWV 639.
Quote from: Marc on April 13, 2009, 03:51:18 AM
OK. Back to Bach then. :)
BTW: when talking about piano arrangements, I prefer f.i. Kempff to Busoni, although I've always liked the add-ons of the latter in Ich ruf' zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ, BWV 639.
Hi,
Marc. Slightly off-topic again :): Have do you seen the film
Solaris? There Andrei Tarkovski (a great lover of the Bach's music) recurrently uses the moving prelude
Ich ruf' zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ, BWV 639, with a tremendous effect of depth.
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 13, 2009, 04:10:30 AM
Hi, Marc. Slightly off-topic again :): Have do you seen the film Solaris? There Andrei Tarkovski (a great lover of the Bach's music) recurrently uses the moving prelude Ich ruf' zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ, BWV 639, with a tremendous effect of depth.
No, I haven't. One of the huge problems in my life ;) is that I love to listen to music that much, that other hobby's 'fall in batlle'. Like movies, I'm afraid. :'(
But a few years ago I saw an impressive documentary about the last train to the concentration camps in Nazi Deutschland, driving through a destroyed France. Unfortunately I forgot the documentary's name.
In this film, BWV 639 (on piano, perhaps also the Busoni arr.) caused a heart-breaking effect, which brought me to tears more than once.
I'll keep your advice (if that's what it is :)) about
Solaris in mind though, when I visit a DVD shop.
Quote from: jowcol on March 27, 2009, 01:14:29 PM
Note: There is a lot of free downloadable Bach organ music at: http://www.blockmrecords.org/bach/catalog.php?scope=recorded
This is made available as a grant, and is yours for the listening. I can't say it's the best version of each piece, but an amazing resource.
Oh dear! I didn't read your post well enough. Now I'm getting adored for placing this link in the
Classical Music for Beginners section, whilst you should get those honours! :-[
I most sincerely apologize!
I agree with you, though: amazing resource, and a great initiative to offer those works for free online!
Quote from: Marc on April 12, 2009, 11:37:09 AM
Don't worry, no problem to me.
But maybe there's more chance of an answer to your question in a 'genuine' Wolfie-thread. ;)
Al vostro servizio . . . . (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,46.0.html)
Imminent release of Bach viola da gamba sonatas &c. played by excellent musicians (who happen to be good friends of yours truly). (http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/2009/06/nearly-hot-off-press.html)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 01, 2009, 04:09:07 AM
Al vostro servizio . . . . (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,46.0.html)
Thank you, sir.
Very attentive, indeed.
Well, I have by now listened to more than a quarter, but probably not quite half, of the "Premium Edition" 40-disc box . . . maybe I've been lucky, but apart from there being hardly any duds (maybe the Italian Concerto on piano falls within that bucket), almost everything has been flat-out excellent.
Last night, i indulged in a mini Bach-a-thon, all on vinyl. I started with the violin/harpsichord sonatas BWV1014, 1015, 1017 and 1018 by Josef Suk and Zuzana Ruzickova--their first outing, a Quintessence pressing of a 1963 recording licensed from Supraphon. This on vinyl (I understand that only their later and less desirable rendition has ever made it to CD) and the Grumiaux/Jaccottet on Philips CD are currently my favorite versions. After that, I sequed into a couple of LP sides of Richter's WTC book 2...reminding me once again why I love that pianist in the work. This was followed by the first solo violin sonata from the early '60s stereo set by Szeryng: his earlier mono set has long been one I love, but I only acquired the later DGG set a few months ago, and this was the very first time I'd tried his #1 from the set. I was very happy to discover that Szeryng's gorgeous intonation was still intact here, though I didn't attempt a spin-off with the earlier set.
Frankly, it was a most satisfying evening. However, the fact that I skipped around..."grazing" as it were...on samples from the great master's repertoire made me realize that I more typically listen to entire sets: all or at least several of the cello solo sonatas in a sitting, or one complete book of the WTC, and so on. And it made me wonder how other people approach this music.
What's YOUR favorite way to listen to Bach? In enormous chunks? Tiny bites? A little vocal interspersed with a little instrumental? Solo instrument vs. Brandenburg concerti or other larger ensemble works? Some Bach thrown into a mix of music from other eras?
Just curious...
Dirk
Very slow, intensive score study, usually with a piano within reach. Particularly with the freer forms, like preludes and fantasies, Bach was, and remains to this day, an unparalleled master and innovator of modulation. Bach likes to modulate, but there's conventional modulation, and then there are times when Bach just decides to start writing in a different key. Using a piano can also light up your imagination, in terms of voicing, and deciding which register something ought to sound in (I guess that last part is more informative in the solo works).
Quote from: dirkronk on June 27, 2009, 08:14:33 PM
What's YOUR favorite way to listen to Bach? In enormous chunks? Tiny bites? A little vocal interspersed with a little instrumental? Solo instrument vs. Brandenburg concerti or other larger ensemble works? Some Bach thrown into a mix of music from other eras?
There's another thread around here asking what are the most beautiful moments in Bach's music. I couldn't answer it, because I can't isolate beautiful moments in JSB's music, due to its structure. Other composers' music strikes me as a series of episodes occurring in time, while JSB's works feel more like grand architectural achievements or, on a smaller level, exquisitely made items of furniture. How do you isolate "beautiful moments" in something like that?
This is relevant to your question, because I haven't really figured out a way to listen to Bach. Swallowing something like the WTC whole is exhausting, so I just listen to selections, often skipping around randomly. It's easier to deal with something like the Brandenburgs, because each of them creates its own sound-world. But if I listen to one Brandenburg, I usually wind up listening to the others soon after.
Another way of "listening" to Bach is to play him yourself. This is probably the most authentic of all, since Bach intended most of his instrumental music for home (often pedagogical) use. The idea of music lovers sitting in a hall listening to a virtuoso plunk out the entire WTC was completely foreign to people of Bach's time.
Quote from: dirkronk on June 27, 2009, 08:14:33 PM
Last night, i indulged in a mini Bach-a-thon, all on vinyl. I started with the violin/harpsichord sonatas BWV1014, 1015, 1017 and 1018 by Josef Suk and Zuzana Ruzickova--their first outing, a Quintessence pressing of a 1963 recording licensed from Supraphon. This on vinyl (I understand that only their later and less desirable rendition has ever made it to CD) and the Grumiaux/Jaccottet on Philips CD are currently my favorite versions. After that, I sequed into a couple of LP sides of Richter's WTC book 2...reminding me once again why I love that pianist in the work. This was followed by the first solo violin sonata from the early '60s stereo set by Szeryng: his earlier mono set has long been one I love, but I only acquired the later DGG set a few months ago, and this was the very first time I'd tried his #1 from the set. I was very happy to discover that Szeryng's gorgeous intonation was still intact here, though I didn't attempt a spin-off with the earlier set.
Frankly, it was a most satisfying evening. However, the fact that I skipped around..."grazing" as it were...on samples from the great master's repertoire made me realize that I more typically listen to entire sets: all or at least several of the cello solo sonatas in a sitting, or one complete book of the WTC, and so on. And it made me wonder how other people approach this music.
What's YOUR favorite way to listen to Bach? In enormous chunks? Tiny bites? A little vocal interspersed with a little instrumental? Solo instrument vs. Brandenburg concerti or other larger ensemble works? Some Bach thrown into a mix of music from other eras?
Just curious...
Dirk
I am sure George is quite happy to hear that you have such love for Richter's WTC. ;D
When I listen to Bach, I tend play the music for hours and will rarely mix in works from other period.
Richter, Szeryng, Grumiaux/Jaccottet are my all-time favorites when it comes to Bach. It does not matter if their recordings are not HIP ...
Quote from: Spitvalve on June 28, 2009, 12:51:42 AM
This is relevant to your question, because I haven't really figured out a way to listen to Bach. Swallowing something like the WTC whole is exhausting, so I just listen to selections, often skipping around randomly.
I tend to listen to the whole WTC at one sitting (assuming the recording is of both books).
My general pattern of listening to Bach is simply to listen at one time to the recording or recordings packaged as one entity. Every day is a Bach solo instrumental day for me.
The best way of listening to Bach that I have experienced was The BBC Radio 3 Bach Christmas Fortnight -- about four years ago.
For two weeks the channel broadcast J S Bach and only J S Bach 24/7
When I first heard they were going to do this I really thought it was a bad idea -- I thought you would tire of his music after a short time.
No way -- every time, and I mean every time, you tuned in the radio there was somethong interesting, exciting, beautiful playing.
In the end I was sorry when it was over.
Did Bach write any bad music?
Quote from: Mandryka on June 28, 2009, 01:42:52 PM
The best way of listening to Bach that I have experienced was The BBC Radio 3 Bach Christmas Fortnight -- about four years ago.
For two weeks the channel broadcast J S Bach and only J S Bach 24/7
When I first heard they were going to do this I really thought it was a bad idea -- I thought you would tire of his music after a short time.
No way -- every time, and I mean every time, you tuned in the radio there was somethong interesting, exciting, beautiful playing.
In the end I was sorry when it was over.
Did Bach write any bad music?
I do not have a shortwave radio to receive BBC. Even if I did, the SQ would have been horrendous anyway ...
Quote from: Coopmv on June 28, 2009, 01:51:00 PM
I do not have a shortwave radio to receive BBC. Even if I did, the SQ would have been horrendous anyway ...
If you have a broadband router get yourself an Internet Radio.
These things are fantastic -- I enjoy speaking and listening to French and so I use one to get French Radio. Sound quality is great.
If you're interestied PM me and I'll let you know the brand I bought -- it works well for me.
My only rule for Bach is to listen to as much as possible, as often as possible.
Quote from: Spitvalve on June 28, 2009, 12:51:42 AM
Another way of "listening" to Bach is to play him yourself.
Ah...if only! Alas, I do not read music. My mother played piano but the post-WWII tract house in which I grew up was far too small to accommodate even her upright, which was sold to a neighbor before I was big enough to sit and "plunk" at the thing. Much later, I took up guitar and 5-string banjo and actually managed to pick out a few Bach and Scarlatti tunes on those. Still, most of my learning was "by ear," by Mel Bay chord book and in a few instances by tablature, but never by standard musical notation. This musical illiteracy is regrettable, of course, but I compensated by learning to play the turntable...and in that manner, I have pursued an appreciation of the classics despite my handicap.
;D
Dirk
Quote from: dirkronk on June 29, 2009, 05:46:20 AM
This musical illiteracy is regrettable, of course, but I compensated by learning to play the turntable...and in that manner, I have pursued an appreciation of the classics despite my handicap.
;D
Dirk
Same here. I have learned to play at least half-dozen of TT's. From straight-arm to linear-trackers ... ;D
Well I believe I have got you all beat (although I risk getting slammed by our Bach expert Don (Bulldog)) for posting this) but I listened to the entire Bach sacred cantatas (Leonhardt/Harnoncourt) straight through over a period of 2 months (Jan/Feb this year) How's that for a feast ;D??
marvin
Quote from: marvinbrown on July 02, 2009, 10:08:17 AM
Well I believe I have got you all beat (although I risk getting slammed by our Bach expert Don (Bulldog)) for posting this) but I listened to the entire Bach sacred cantatas (Leonhardt/Harnoncourt) straight through over a period of 2 months (Jan/Feb this year) How's that for a feast ;D??
marvin
No slamming from the Bulldog - just congratulations!
I'm sorry to say but i don't think that after almost three hundred years there's much left to be feasting on.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on July 02, 2009, 01:31:43 PM
I'm sorry to say but i don't think that after almost three hundred years there's much left to be feasting on.
Sure there is, for each new generation of Bach listeners.
Quote from: Bulldog on July 02, 2009, 01:45:27 PM
Sure there is, for each new generation of Bach listeners.
Yes but you are dog, you can still munch on the bones.
Quote from: marvinbrown on July 02, 2009, 10:08:17 AM
Well I believe I have got you all beat (although I risk getting slammed by our Bach expert Don (Bulldog)) for posting this) but I listened to the entire Bach sacred cantatas (Leonhardt/Harnoncourt) straight through over a period of 2 months (Jan/Feb this year) How's that for a feast ;D??
marvin
Nothing to be ashamed of. It will probably take me a year to finish my Harnoncourt's Bach Cantatas, which I bought in the past February but the set is still in its cellophane ... ;D
Quote from: Coopmv on July 02, 2009, 07:36:14 PM
Nothing to be ashamed of. It will probably take me a year to finish my Harnoncourt's Bach Cantatas, which I bought in the past February but the set is still in its cellophane ... ;D
OH No! I suggest you remove the cellophane and dive right in! As you probably know they are 60 CDs in total. If you listen to one a day as I did, you can go through the set in 2 months easy. I love the interpretation. It is raw and earnest. True to Bach's intentions, those cantatas are sung by a Choir of boys. What is astonishing is that there is at least one thing (be it a mood, an aria, a melody etc.) that is delightful in each and every cantata. You will come to find that no two cantatas (they number close to 200 :o) are identical and the quality of the music is consistently high. They say Herr Bach 0:) is a Titan of Westerin Art- those cantatas are a testament to that!
Happy Listening 8)
marvin
Quote from: marvinbrown on July 03, 2009, 12:40:55 AM
OH No! I suggest you remove the cellophane and dive right in! As you probably know they are 60 CDs in total. If you listen to one a day as I did, you can go through the set in 2 months easy. I love the interpretation. It is raw and earnest. True to Bach's intentions, those cantatas are sung by a Choir of boys. What is astonishing is that there is at least one thing (be it a mood, an aria, a melody etc.) that is delightful in each and every cantata. You will come to find that no two cantatas (they number close to 200 :o) are identical and the quality of the music is consistently high. They say Herr Bach 0:) is a Titan of Westerin Art- those cantatas are a testament to that!
Happy Listening 8)
marvin
It is not that I have not been listening to CD's. I have been zipping through many CD's as fast as I can but cannot whittle down the 150 or so unplayed CD's since new purchases keep coming in. I particularly enjoy listening to Bach Cantatas during the winter months ... ;D
Quote from: Coopmv on July 03, 2009, 04:24:53 AM
It is not that I have not been listening to CD's. I have been zipping through many CD's as fast as I can but cannot whittle down the 150 or so unplayed CD's since new purchases keep coming in. I particularly enjoy listening to Bach Cantatas during the winter months ... ;D
What's your listening preference in the summer months?
Quote from: Bulldog on July 03, 2009, 11:16:11 AM
What's your listening preference in the summer months?
Piano works, symphonies and Handel's oratorios/operas. I will listen through 2 sets of Beethoven Piano Sonatas by Wilhelm Backhaus and Wilhelm Kempff (the mono set and the third set by Kempff in my collection). The Michelangeli's set is on order. I tend to be a pianophile during the summer months ... ;D
Quote from: Coopmv on July 03, 2009, 04:24:53 AM
It is not that I have not been listening to CD's. I have been zipping through many CD's as fast as I can but cannot whittle down the 150 or so unplayed CD's since new purchases keep coming in. I particularly enjoy listening to Bach Cantatas during the winter months ... ;D
I do not know exactly how to respond to that
Coopmv 8), only to say that you should take your time and savour these pieces. "Zipping" through these cantatas would be doing them and yourself a disservice ;)!
marvin
Quote from: marvinbrown on July 05, 2009, 12:52:58 PM
I do not know exactly how to respond to that Coopmv 8), only to say that you should take your time and savour these pieces. "Zipping" through these cantatas would be doing them and yourself a disservice ;)!
marvin
I hear you. But when you live a very compressed life and have thousands of recordings, there is no time to savor every piece in your collection. Perhaps only people who have lots of free time on their hand should have large music collections. :(
Quote from: Coopmv on July 05, 2009, 01:08:46 PM
Perhaps only people who have lots of free time on their hand should have large music collections. :(
Words of wisdom. Not what record companies and their producers like to hear, however. ;)
One of the very finest pianists of our times. The Russian Grigory Sokolov. Here in a German live concert with Bach's Prelude in B Minor. Sokolov has the most marvellous technique and almost everything he plays sounds original. Goodness, he even plays a wrong note around 32 seconds in to the piece ! But his interpretations are always phenomenal.
(Sokolov recently refused to supply finger prints with his visa application for a series of concerts in the UK, saying that such a request was worse than the Soviet Union and describing the request as 'paranoia appealing to paranoia'. But that's Sokolov. A wonderful musician).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgvWoq3HYrQ&feature=related
And here is the Gigue from Partita 4 (live) in 1990 - Germany
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46PgAog8OR4&feature=related
Quote from: robnewman on July 06, 2009, 12:36:57 PM
One of the very finest pianists of our times. The Russian Grigory Sokolov. Here in a German live concert with Bach's Prelude in B Minor. Sokolov has the most marvellous technique and almost everything he plays sounds original. Goodness, he even plays a wrong note around 32 seconds in to the piece ! But his interpretations are always phenomenal.
(Sokolov recently refused to supply finger prints with his visa application for a series of concerts in the UK, saying that such a request was worse than the Soviet Union and describing the request as 'paranoia appealing to paranoia'. But that's Sokolov. A wonderful musician).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgvWoq3HYrQ&feature=related
And here is the Gigue from Partita 4 (live) in 1990 - Germany
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgvWoq3HYrQ&feature=related
What happened to the Gigue?
Bach: Partita No.4 in D major BWB 828,
Gigue
Grigorij Sokolov,
Live Performance
Munich, November 15th 1990.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46PgAog8OR4&feature=related
Bach: Nun freut euch, lieben Christen g'mein,
Chorale Prelude BWV 734a
Grigorij Sokolov, Soloist
Live - Munich, November 15th 1990.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IykgpJ7WCs&NR=1
Cantata 131
"Aus der Tiefe rufe ich",
Chor - "Meine Seele harret"
Philippe Herreweghe
Collegium Vocale, Ghent
Oh, my goodness !! Simply awesome !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzN1Tt9ZiCk&feature=related
Oh, no, now you've started me...............
I love Bach and play his works quite often.
Quote from: Holden on July 07, 2009, 02:10:06 PM
Oh, no, now you've started me...............
I love Bach and play his works quite often.
Hi there Holden,
This music is a wonderful consolation in these troubled times. I too love it dearly.
Quote from: robnewman on July 08, 2009, 06:29:14 AM
Hi there Holden,
This music is a wonderful consolation in these troubled times. I too love it dearly.
Rob, the music of Bach got me through my only (I hope) bout of clinical depression and it is why I love it so much. It took away the need for any form of medication and while it took longer I feel that it had a more permanent effect.
Quote from: Holden on July 08, 2009, 09:14:54 PM
Rob, the music of Bach got me through my only (I hope) bout of clinical depression and it is why I love it so much. It took away the need for any form of medication and while it took longer I feel that it had a more permanent effect.
Wonderful, Holden, and rest assured He has given us a strong mind. It is the only body of music I know which is attached to one man but which has escaped fanaticism and crude commercialism and which remains, till now, far beyond human expectation or knowledge. A friend of mine in Italy recently said he wanted to take up 'truck driving' after hearing a performance of the Partita Number 1 in B Flat for Keyboard. (And he is a talented pianist). I told him this feeling was perfectly healthy. LOL. (He laughed too).
J.S. Bach
English Suite No.2,
Bourrée I/II
BWV 807
Friedrich Gulda
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAzPUt82Y_E&feature=related
And -
Concerto BWV 1061/3
Fuga
Trevor Pinnock
English Concert
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByLvd1HoCac
(I once saw Trevor Pinnock in Westminster rehearsing this piece with others for a performance. One of the most astonishing movements in all of music. It was amazing).
Quote from: robnewman on July 06, 2009, 12:36:57 PM
One of the very finest pianists of our times. The Russian Grigory Sokolov. Here in a German live concert with Bach's Prelude in B Minor. Sokolov has the most marvellous technique and almost everything he plays sounds original. Goodness, he even plays a wrong note around 32 seconds in to the piece ! But his interpretations are always phenomenal.
(Sokolov recently refused to supply finger prints with his visa application for a series of concerts in the UK, saying that such a request was worse than the Soviet Union and describing the request as 'paranoia appealing to paranoia'. But that's Sokolov. A wonderful musician).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgvWoq3HYrQ&feature=related
And here is the Gigue from Partita 4 (live) in 1990 - Germany
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46PgAog8OR4&feature=related
That partita is maybe my favourite piece of music.
I would be very interested to know if there is a way to hear Sokolov play the rest of it.
Concerto in D Minor
BWV 1063/3
Allegro
Il Giardino Armonico
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAAquFs6Tfc&feature=related
Quote from: robnewman on July 07, 2009, 02:19:26 AM
Cantata 131
"Aus der Tiefe rufe ich",
Chor - "Meine Seele harret"
Philippe Herreweghe
Collegium Vocale, Ghent
Oh, my goodness !! Simply awesome !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzN1Tt9ZiCk&feature=related
This is as close to God as we are ever going to get 0:) ..........
marvin
Any time is a good time to feast or to snack on Bach. I doubt a week ever goes by that I don't listen to something by him. Just turned up on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/v/0dwgIadE3IM&feature=related
Quote from: robnewman on July 06, 2009, 12:36:57 PMSokolov recently refused to supply finger prints with his visa application for a series of concerts in the UK, saying that such a request was worse than the Soviet Union and describing the request as 'paranoia appealing to paranoia'.
So Sokolov is insane. I've never heard his Bach, but insanity did not seem to hurt Gould's Bach.
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 10, 2009, 06:38:25 AM
Any time is a good time to feast or to snack on Bach. I doubt a week ever goes by that I don't listen to something by him. Just turned up on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/v/0dwgIadE3IM&feature=related
So Sokolov is insane. I've never heard his Bach, but insanity did not seem to hurt Gould's Bach.
No, Sokolov is NOT insane. He is definitely one of the few sane people in this world. He complained that British officialdom demanded that he present fingerprints in order to enter the UK. And he condemned that beaurocracy (rightly) as sheer humbug and nonsense.
Sanity seems to consist of being a heretic in the eyes of the world. And, speaking of Bach.....LOL :)
Thank You for the time here !!
Himmelfahrtsoratorium
BWV 11/1
Coro
Masaaki Suzuki
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZL6-gJha7U&feature=related
This one is a particular favorite lately.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61l5WY-MdOL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
Keyboard fugues (some from the WTC, some originally for organ) of Bach transcribed for brass quintet. This is Bach paradise, the clarity of counterpoint in these arrangements is unsurpassed. Particularly impressive are the great organ fugues, which in these performances have a stunning transparency as well as a feel of authenticity. Gorgeously performed and recorded. Each Bach fugue is followed by a fugue by Shostakovich in the same key, as if to prove by comparison how great a genius Bach really was.
Quote from: robnewman on July 10, 2009, 10:33:36 AM
No, Sokolov is NOT insane. He is definitely one of the few sane people in this world.
You vouching for anyone's sanity is like Bernie Madoff vouching for another's integrity. Sokolov must be a fruitcake of the first order.
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 10, 2009, 11:58:08 AM
You vouching for anyone's sanity is like Bernie Madoff vouching for another's integrity. Sokolov must be a fruitcake of the first order.
Fortunately, music lovers think very differently. As for the rest, who cares ? Mediocrity has many disciples.
:)
J.S. Bach
Cantata
Opening Chorus
"Gott der Herr ist Sonn und Schild"
BWV 79/1
Leipzig
Neue Bachsche Collegium Musicum
Thomanerchor Leipzig
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tmio2ZdUm_A
:)
Quote from: robnewman on July 10, 2009, 01:11:29 PMQuote from: DavidRoss on July 10, 2009, 11:58:08 AM
You vouching for anyone's sanity is like Bernie Madoff vouching for another's integrity. Sokolov must be a fruitcake of the first order.
Fortunately, music lovers think very differently. As for the rest, who cares ? Mediocrity has many disciples.
Music lovers may enjoy Sokolov's pianism without regard to his infantile nuttiness, just as they may enjoy Zimerman's pianism, or Gould's, or Scriabin's compositions, or Wagner's music dramas. Just because an ignorant wacko can do one thing well does not make him any less ignorant or wacko...though it might offer a small measure of redemption for an otherwise pointless life tragically wasted through untreated mental illness.
Is there anything you can do well?
No, there is nothing I can do well of myself. I rely completely on goodwill.
Thank You
Quote from: robnewman on July 10, 2009, 01:11:29 PM
Fortunately, music lovers think very differently.
David is a music lover. You see how your remark implies a false dichotomy?
Tin Foil Hats: Gimme two!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 14, 2009, 10:07:03 AM
David is a music lover. You see how your remark implies a false dichotomy?
Tin Foil Hats: Gimme two!
My remark is a plain fact that I, and only I am uniquely qualified to state. If it represents a dichotomy it does so to you. And not to me.
I have been absolutely exulting in the harpsichord recordings by Christiane Jaccottet!
I really would like to listen to those youtube clips, but I forgot again to bring my headphones back into the office. :'(
Noticing Newman's selections it's interesting to note that he is not biased towards or against HIP, he has a broad eclectic taste in performances. :)
I listened to some of the Sokolov, but it's really hard to feel engaged by the modern piano with Bach. For contrast, I found Koopman's Bach much more engaging just due to the choice of instrument.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OocLZgmIR0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OocLZgmIR0)
----------------
Now playing: J.S. Bach Toccata in G major BWV 916 Allegro
Quote from: DavidW on July 14, 2009, 01:07:56 PM
I listened to some of the Sokolov, but it's really hard to feel engaged by the modern piano with Bach. For contrast, I found Koopman's Bach much more engaging just due to the choice of instrument.
And yet some of us are enthralled by Bach on the modern piano and find it difficult to stay engaged with the harpsichord's thin sound.
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 14, 2009, 01:21:12 PM
And yet some of us are enthralled by Bach on the modern piano and find it difficult to stay engaged with the harpsichord's thin sound.
Yup, diversity is a wonderful thing. 8) Do you like the sound of the organ btw?
----------------
Now playing: J.S. Bach - Prelude & Fuga BWV 541, T. Koopman
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 12, 2009, 06:54:11 AM
Well, I have by now listened to more than a quarter, but probably not quite half, of the "Premium Edition" 40-disc box . . . maybe I've been lucky, but apart from there being hardly any duds (maybe the Italian Concerto on piano falls within that bucket), almost everything has been flat-out excellent.
Considering buying this, but detailed information (including musicians and artists) seems hard to find on the internet, though it could be me.
Could you inform me/us about (some) performers, Karl?
Most importantly ;), I'd like to know one thing ....
(Dare I ask?)
Karl: who plays the organ works?
Quote from: DavidW on July 14, 2009, 01:23:20 PM
Yup, diversity is a wonderful thing. 8) Do you like the sound of the organ btw?
----------------
Now playing: J.S. Bach - Prelude & Fuga BWV 541, T. Koopman
Not all organs sound alike!
And (FWIW) I enjoy both the piano and the harpsichord.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 14, 2009, 02:20:14 PM
Not all organs sound alike!
And (FWIW) I enjoy both the piano and the harpsichord.
Yeah I've heard a Handel recording once (organ concertos I believe) where the organ was very puny sounding, I was surprised, very surprised. I haven't really explored the organ and it's music that much (outside of casual Bach and Handel listening) and I don't know what flavors they come in. In a concert once I've heard some Bach performed and the organ sounded very bright, light and airy and I loved it. When I heard the same works on cd I was disappointed because the music sounded bloated and heavy. I would like to find that kind of organ sound I heard that day, makes Bach much more musical to my ears.
Quote from: DavidW on July 14, 2009, 01:23:20 PM
Yup, diversity is a wonderful thing. 8) Do you like the sound of the organ btw?
In person I've heard some organs I liked and some I didn't much care for. The Italian Baroque organ in the collection of the Memorial Art Gallery of the University of Rochester (http://mag.rochester.edu/collections/organ.html) is one that I liked very much. I have yet to hear one on record that I wanted to hear more than once.
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 14, 2009, 04:32:25 PM
In person I've heard some organs I liked and some I didn't much care for. The Italian Baroque organ in the collection of the Memorial Art Gallery of the University of Rochester (http://mag.rochester.edu/collections/organ.html) is one that I liked very much. I have yet to hear one on record that I wanted to hear more than once.
You know since I have the same impression about live vs recordings for organs I wonder if the reverb and room acoustics factor prominently in the sound?
Quote from: Marc on July 14, 2009, 01:28:57 PM
Considering buying this, but detailed information (including musicians and artists) seems hard to find on the internet, though it could be me.
Could you inform me/us about (some) performers, Karl?
Most importantly ;), I'd like to know one thing ....
(Dare I ask?)
Karl: who plays the organ works?
Karl, no need to answer anymore, because I did another search again and found some names.
Otto Winter (rather well-known, did some Bach for the budget Pilz/Vienna Master Series), Esther Sialm (has got a reputation in f.i. Germany & the Netherlands), Susanne Doll (plays Bach, Dupré & Messiaen regularly), Ivan Sokol (was also included with some recordings in the budget Point catalogue), Eberhard Kraus (well-known as both harpsichordist & organist) and Miklos Spanyi (did some recordings for the Forum label, AFAIK, though there are claims on the net that some of these performances were actually by Otto Winter .... ???).
I did an offer on a dutch kinda eBay site. Now let's wait and see ....
Quote from: Scarpia on July 10, 2009, 11:08:02 AM
This one is a particular favorite lately.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61l5WY-MdOL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
Keyboard fugues (some from the WTC, some originally for organ) of Bach transcribed for brass quintet. This is Bach paradise, the clarity of counterpoint in these arrangements is unsurpassed. Particularly impressive are the great organ fugues, which in these performances have a stunning transparency as well as a feel of authenticity. Gorgeously performed and recorded. Each Bach fugue is followed by a fugue by Shostakovich in the same key, as if to prove by comparison how great a genius Bach really was.
Damn, there's another disc to go on my To Buy pile...I really should stop hanging around here :D and unlike Scarp, I love Shostakovich, which makes it even more imperative
Quote from: Marc on July 15, 2009, 04:28:54 AM
Karl, no need to answer anymore, because I did another search again and found some names.
Otto Winter (rather well-known, did some Bach for the budget Pilz/Vienna Master Series), Esther Sialm (has got a reputation in f.i. Germany & the Netherlands), Susanne Doll (plays Bach, Dupré & Messiaen regularly), Ivan Sokol (was also included with some recordings in the budget Point catalogue), Eberhard Kraus (well-known as both harpsichordist & organist) and Miklos Spanyi (did some recordings for the Forum label, AFAIK, though there are claims on the net that some of these performances were actually by Otto Winter .... ???).
Interesting information in the Amazon com forum from a poster "Wachovia":
"Otto Winter is not the actual organist!
The real organist is MIKLOS SPANYI of Hungary.
He made the recording in 1987 and sold it to a german record producer. That record producer sold Spanyi's recording to several labels. Such as Point, Madacy, etc.
Some cds say Otto Winter at a Silbermann Organ.
Inactuality it is Miklos Spanyi at the Calvary Chuch in Szombathely, Hungary. The organ was built by the Eule Orgelbou of Germany.
Mr. Spanyi himself emailed this information to me.
Otto Winter is not an organist at all." Link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/ADCES8TQLRK34
Quote from: premont on July 23, 2009, 02:24:25 PM
Interesting information in the Amazon com forum from a poster "Wachovia":
"Otto Winter is not the actual organist!
The real organist is MIKLOS SPANYI of Hungary.
He made the recording in 1987 and sold it to a german record producer. That record producer sold Spanyi's recording to several labels. Such as Point, Madacy, etc.
Some cds say Otto Winter at a Silbermann Organ.
Inactuality it is Miklos Spanyi at the Calvary Chuch in Szombathely, Hungary. The organ was built by the Eule Orgelbou of Germany.
Mr. Spanyi himself emailed this information to me.
Otto Winter is not an organist at all."
Link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/ADCES8TQLRK34
Thanks for updating, Premont!
So, the conspiracy theory was: Spanyi is not the real organist. Otto Winter
is.
But in the end it turned out that it's the other way around.
These things happen, you know. ;D
''Seb. Bach is said to have played with so easy and small a motion of the fingers that it was hardly perceptible. Only the first joints of the fingers were in motion'
(J.N. Forkel - 'Uber Johann Sebastian Bachs Leben, Kunst und Kunstwerken' - (1802) - Leipzig).
J.S. Bach
Concerto in D Minor
1st Movement
BWV 1052/1
Trevor Pinnock
English Concert Baroque Orchestra
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF-p_RGVjUQ&feature=related
Quote from: premont on July 23, 2009, 02:24:25 PM
Interesting information in the Amazon com forum from a poster "Wachovia":
"Otto Winter is not the actual organist!
The real organist is MIKLOS SPANYI of Hungary.
He made the recording in 1987 and sold it to a german record producer. That record producer sold Spanyi's recording to several labels. Such as Point, Madacy, etc.
Some cds say Otto Winter at a Silbermann Organ.
Inactuality it is Miklos Spanyi at the Calvary Chuch in Szombathely, Hungary. The organ was built by the Eule Orgelbou of Germany.
Mr. Spanyi himself emailed this information to me.
Otto Winter is not an organist at all."
Link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/ADCES8TQLRK34
Thanks! And, sorry,
Marc!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 28, 2009, 05:00:39 AM
Thanks! And, sorry, Marc!
No problem.
BTW: made a deal about the 40cd box set, and hopefully I'll receive it at the end of this week, or maybe next week.
I'm especially interested in the discs with
Klavierinstrumente.
Something to look forward to.
Quote from: DavidW on July 14, 2009, 01:23:20 PM
Yup, diversity is a wonderful thing. 8) Do you like the sound of the organ btw?
Quote from: DavidW on July 14, 2009, 02:41:13 PM
In a concert once I've heard some Bach performed and the organ sounded very bright, light and airy and I loved it. When I heard the same works on cd I was disappointed because the music sounded bloated and heavy. I would like to find that kind of organ sound I heard that day, makes Bach much more musical to my ears.
Quote from: DavidW on July 14, 2009, 04:39:25 PM
You know since I have the same impression about live vs recordings for organs I wonder if the reverb and room acoustics factor prominently in the sound?
Hi,
David. On the basis of your description, probably a useful tip for you would be to explore those sweet neo-baroque Metzler organs used by Christopher Herrick in his Bach integral.
Here a link: http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/a.asp?a=A644
I will try, for example, the Orgelbüchlein (BWV 639 or 603, just to say), the Trio Sonatas or The Italian Connection disc (BWV 596).
:)
Listened to some samples Antoine and that is EXACTLY what I'm talking about! Awesome!! It looks like mdt has the best price, so I've added it to my wishlist there.
Quote from: Marc on July 29, 2009, 12:12:42 PM
I'm especially interested in the discs with Klavierinstrumente.
Something to look forward to.
Certainly. Pay special attention to the recordings by Christiane Jaccottet, Miklos Spanyi (Otto Winter you know) and Esther Sialm. Sialm´s Dorian T&F are among my top faves of this piece (next to Walcha, Kooiman and Beekman of course). The box is a steal, even if it also contains less interesting recordings.
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 06, 2009, 05:45:05 AM
I will try, for example, the Orgelbüchlein (BWV 639 or 603, just to say), the Trio Sonatas or The Italian Connection disc (BWV 596).
According to me the Orgelbüchlein and the Trio sonatas are the cream of Herrick´s set.
Quote from: DavidW on August 06, 2009, 05:59:37 AM
Listened to some samples Antoine and that is EXACTLY what I'm talking about! Awesome!! It looks like mdt has the best price, so I've added it to my wishlist there.
Excellent! :)
Quote from: premont on August 06, 2009, 07:51:54 AM
Certainly. Pay special attention to the recordings by Christiane Jaccottet, Miklos Spanyi (Otto Winter you know) and Esther Sialm. Sialm´s Dorian T&F are among my top faves of this piece (next to Walcha, Kooiman and Beekman of course). The box is a steal, even if it also contains less interesting recordings.
As far as I recall this box set was firstly pointed out by you (some credit, you know), when we were talking about Jaccottet in the "Bach on the Harpsichord (lute-harpsichord, clavichord, etc.)" thread. Information about the contents was included there:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,289.msg300309/topicseen.html#msg300309
:)
Quote from: premont on August 06, 2009, 07:55:57 AM
According to me the Orgelbüchlein and the Trio sonatas are the cream of Herrick´s set.
I agree. I like very much his organ concertos too (The Italian Connection); I love his thoughtful, reflective style there.
:)
Now I know that we can distinguish between the different periods based on pre-Weimar and Weimar as an early period, Cothen period is when he focused on secular music, and the longest time being the Leipzig period where he wrote most of his vocal masterpieces...
but...
Setting that aside, how would you characterize the evolution of Bach's style through the different periods?
Quote from: DavidW on August 07, 2009, 04:18:02 AM
[....] how would you characterize the evolution of Bach's style through the different periods?
That's a complicated question. Too much complicated for me to even give the idea of an answer, I admit.
(And certainly at this very moment when my brain is slowed down, due to high summer temperatures.)
So I'll answer with a quick one: although Bach himself of course wasn't aware of it, he characterized his own evolution whilst composing the Chaconne, part 5 of the
Partita in D minor for solo violin (BWV 1004).
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/bach_logo_halfsize.png)
CD Pick of the Week: Bach's Orchestral Suites Reconstructed (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=630)
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=630 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=630)
Monica Hugget is one of the baroque music scene's most cherished pioneer-veterans.
Co-founder of the Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra with Ton Koopman and founding member
of the Academy of Ancient Music, she also worked with Trevor Pinnock and his English
Concert and she has led Toronto-based Tafelmusik. She is currently the head of the
Portland Baroque Orchestra, the Ireland Baroque Orchestra and of course the Ensemble
Sonnerie which she founded, then still a Trio, in 1982.
When someone like Monica Huggett brings out a recording of Bach's Orchestral Suites
it's a notable event, not the least because new and exciting recordings of the Suites
—or Concert-Ouvertures—are rather more scarce than new recordings of the Brandenburg-
or Keyboard Concertos. It's also notable because Mme. Huggett goes her own ways in
reconstructing those three suites that we only have in transcriptions from now-lost-
originals...
[T]ry as they may, those who venture to make Bach "their own" inevitably find that Bach somehow reaches out from beyond the grave to make them "his own". (http://www.musicweb-international.com/Programme_Notes/bach_obvlstr.htm)
:)
Quote from: jlaurson on August 24, 2009, 02:59:29 AM
It's also notable because Mme. Huggett goes her own ways in
reconstructing those three suites that we only have in transcriptions from now-lost-
originals...
Transcriptions??? The surviving versions are probably Bach´s own arrangements -or final versions, if you want, so they are more authoricised than the so called reconstructions of presumed lost originals.
Quote from: premont on November 10, 2009, 01:51:14 PM
Transcriptions??? The surviving versions are probably Bach´s own arrangements -or final versions, if you want, so they are more authoricised than the so called reconstructions of presumed lost originals.
Responding to the insinuation that she was making Bach "her own" (not mine) or simply to my use of the (correct) word "Transcriptions"?
It's a technical term, and it applies... no?
Quote from: jlaurson on November 10, 2009, 03:34:02 PM
Responding to the insinuation that she was making Bach "her own" (not mine) or simply to my use of the (correct) word "Transcriptions"?
It's a technical term, and it applies... no?
That quote I posted was not directed at your review, Jens. (I would have quoted you otherwise, considering the gap in time between the two posts.) It was just an interesting comment that I thought I'd share with the rest of the forum. I apologise for any misunderstanding. :)
Quote from: jlaurson on November 10, 2009, 03:34:02 PM
Responding to the insinuation that she was making Bach "her own" (not mine) or simply to my use of the (correct) word "Transcriptions"?
It's a technical term, and it applies... no?
I find the word "transcription" inappropiate for an arrangement of a work, which basically remain unchanged, and where the diiference just consists of the addition of a few instruments f.i. tromba´s.
Quote from: opus106 on November 10, 2009, 08:47:49 PM
That quote I posted was not directed at your review, Jens. (I would have quoted you otherwise, considering the gap in time between the two posts.) It was just an interesting comment that I thought I'd share with the rest of the forum. I apologise for any misunderstanding. :)
Sorry, then. :D
Say, change of topic: Anyone know if there is (there must be) a
WTC with
Nikolayeva from her Russian days? An old Melodiya set, perhaps? I have her 1984/85 Japanese recording(s) and I was wondering if there was something closer (in time, if nothing else) to the Bach as it must have sounded when DSCH heard it.
on-topic bump.
Ionarts-at-Large: Bach's St. John Passion with Ton Koopman (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/02/ionarts-at-large-bachs-st-john-passion.html)
Quote from: jlaurson on March 01, 2010, 02:07:52 AM
on-topic bump.
Ionarts-at-Large: Bach's St. John Passion with Ton Koopman (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/02/ionarts-at-large-bachs-st-john-passion.html)
Your positive review doesn't come as a surprise to me. Somehow I feel that the
Johannes-Passion is closer to Koopman's own personality than the
Matthäus. At least I prefer his studio recording of the first by far. The latter sounding too much 'investigated' and studious, IMO.
OTOH: Koopman's live recording of the SMP (both on CD and DVD) is also very good, more involved and naturally balanced than his studio rendering.
a tribute from The Writer's Almanac:
It's the birthday of Johann Sebastian Bach, born 325 years ago in Eisenach, Germany (1685). He came from a musical family, and was talented enough to get a scholarship to study music. And as a teenager, he was an accomplished organist and held a series of posts at various churches. But he wasn't the easiest organ player to have on staff. He criticized the choir, he took prolonged absences from his job, and once he got in a fight with a bassoonist, in which Bach called the bassoonist something that has been translated as "nanny-goat bassoonist" or "bassoonist breaking wind after eating a green onion." He took a leave of absence from a job in the town of Arnstadt — he asked for a month and stayed for three more — to visit another part of Germany and see the composer and organist Dietrich Buxtehude. Buxtehude was old by the time Bach visited him, and they hit it off, and Bach could have taken over his position. But by practice, he would have had to marry Buxtehude's daughter, and apparently this idea was not appealing because he went back to Arnstadt. His employers were relieved to have him back because he was so talented, but they weren't too happy that he was three months late, nor with the musical innovations he had picked up, inspired by Buxtehude. The Church Council held a meeting and informed him: "Complaints have been made to the Consistorium that you now accompany the hymns with surprising variations and irrelevant ornaments which obliterate the melody and confuse the congregation. If you desire to introduce a theme against the melody, you must go on with it and not immediately fly off to another." Then he was reprimanded for playing the organ for "a strange damsel." Not much later, he left Arnstadt, married his cousin Maria Barbara Bach, and went on to a distinguished career as a composer, organist, and champion of German music.
Quote from: listener on March 21, 2010, 03:01:50 AM
The Church Council held a meeting and informed him: "Complaints have been made to the Consistorium that you now accompany the hymns with surprising variations and irrelevant ornaments which obliterate the melody and confuse the congregation. If you desire to introduce a theme against the melody, you must go on with it and not immediately fly off to another."
It's funny how much the Church Council sounds like the modern-music haters that populate boards like this one :D
A nice window into the life of the young Bach. I think we get a picture of a very respectible man and this insight makes him rather more human.
Mike
Quote from: knight on March 21, 2010, 11:57:22 AM
A nice window into the life of the young Bach. I think we get a picture of a very respectible man and this insight makes him rather more human.
Sure. Some people consider him a God though .... but, by God, was Bach human!
But who knows .... maybe the one & only God would have smiled, listening upstairs in Heaven to Bach's choral accompaniments.
And what about that exquisit
Christian drink called wine?
In Arnstadt, young Bach was also rebuked by the Church Council for sneaking away during sermons and diving into the goodies of the wine cellar! ;D
brief note on Ragna Schirmer's Goldberg Variations:
Dip Your Ears, No. 102 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/04/dip-your-ears-no-102.html)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/04/dip-your-ears-no-102.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/04/dip-your-ears-no-102.html)
Quote from: jlaurson on April 25, 2010, 07:44:15 AM
brief note on Ragna Schirmer's Goldberg Variations:
Dip Your Ears, No. 102 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/04/dip-your-ears-no-102.html)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/04/dip-your-ears-no-102.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/04/dip-your-ears-no-102.html)
Jens - thanks for the comments on this pianist in the
Goldberg Variations - I see two offerings of these works; one w/ her picture and the other you're posting above - do you know the difference? I plan to add her to an Amazon want list today - thanks! Dave
Quote from: SonicMan on April 25, 2010, 07:48:55 AM
Jens - thanks for the comments on this pianist in the Goldberg Variations - I see two offerings of these works; one w/ her picture and the other you're posting above - do you know the difference? I plan to add her to an Amazon want list today - thanks! Dave
Yes. One (white w/picture) is the original release, the other (purple) is the re-release. I describe the re-release, which includes the fine essay. Not a bare-bones budget-re-release at all.
Quote from: jlaurson on April 25, 2010, 07:58:29 AM
Yes. One (white w/picture) is the original release, the other (purple) is the re-release. I describe the re-release, which includes the fine essay. Not a bare-bones budget-re-release at all.
Thanks - Dave
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4127J9ZW0RL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
An essential boxset for Bach fans
Keep a sharp eye out for used versions of this great out of print 11 CD boxset, has some of the best Bach keyboard performances available inside..........I got one a few months ago for $40 used at Amazon USA seller gohastings, highlights include:
Glen Wilson WTC I, II using harpsichord
(reference harpsicord version to date for me)
Scott Ross Partitas 1-6 using harpsichord
(I have heard nothing clearly better but Andreas Staier version is at same exaulted level)
Alan Curtis French & English Suites using harpsichord
(not the very best which is Rousset/Ambroise for me, but much better than I expected, top 3-4 range with much competition from many versions. I have many baroque operas conducted by Alan Curtis and didn't realize his strong showing as a solo keyboard performer)
Zuzanna Ruzickova Two & Three part inventions using harpsichord
(these I was not thrilled with, frequent use of lute stop effects several of which annoyed me, just average)
The Wilson and Ross performances are essential so this is easy way to pick them up together
I believe some members will be interested in this set:
(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/linnckd354.jpg)
Scheduled for release on 31 May 2010.
J.S. Bach - Mass in B minor, BWV232 [Breitkopf Edition, edited by J. Rifkin]
Susan Hamilton (soprano), Cecilia Osmond (soprano), Margot Oitzinger (alto), Thomas Hobbs (tenor) & Matthew Brook (bass)
Dunedin Consort & Players
John Butt (director)
2-SACD set (hybrid multi-channel)
The Dunedin Consort's recording of Bach's Mass in B Minor revisits the spectacular individual virtuosity that made the Messiah recording so successful. This is the premiere recording of the work in the new Breitkopf edition, edited by Joshua Rifkin, a leading thinker in authentic period performance, who fully endorses John Butt's interpretation.
Bach's Mass capitalizes on the very essence of the group's skills: skilled virtuosic choral performance coupled with outstanding, characterful solo singing.
Bach's Mass in B Minor is undoubtedly his most spectacular choral work and the Dunedin Consort's single-voice performance enables a level of clarity and expression that is not traditionally a feature of modern choral performance.
This recording features several soloists from the acclaimed recording of Bach's Matthew Passion, which was named the BBC Music Magazine's Benchmark.
8)
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 02, 2010, 09:04:21 AM
I believe some members will be interested in this set:
(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/linnckd354.jpg)
Scheduled for release on 31 May 2010.
J.S. Bach - Mass in B minor, BWV232 [Breitkopf Edition, edited by J. Rifkin]
Susan Hamilton (soprano), Cecilia Osmond (soprano), Margot Oitzinger (alto), Thomas Hobbs (tenor) & Matthew Brook (bass)
Dunedin Consort & Players
John Butt (director)
2-SACD set (hybrid multi-channel)
I will be a buyer.............The Dunedin Consort performances of Handel Messiah and Bach SMP rank up near the top of each for me
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51qIlRlQ5%2BL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Also for May 11 release in USA..............
Several 3CD sets of Herreweghe's Bach cantatas, oratorios, and passions at reduced price ;)
Lute Harpsichord
I recently purchased Hanssler boxset of Bach keyboard works from Berkshire Records and it contained several Cds by Robert Hill played on a Lute Harpsichord, this sound was new to me
Very sweet sounding keyboard with no sharp bite like standard harpsichord and a deep full resonant sound, sounds like a combination of harpsichord and clavicord. JS Bach was very found of these and owned two at the time of his death.
Here is youtube sound sample with picture of typical model........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14OjP909IG4&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14OjP909IG4&feature=related)
Quote from: DarkAngel on May 03, 2010, 05:58:17 AM
Lute Harpsichord
I recently purchased Hanssler boxset of Bach keyboard works from Berkshire Records and it contained several Cds by Robert Hill played on a Lute Harpsichord, this sound was new to me
Very sweet sounding keyboard with no sharp bite like standard harpsichord and a deep full resonant sound, sounds like a combination of harpsichord and clavicord. JS Bach was very found of these and owned two at the time of his death.
DA - I really like the
lute harpsichord, probably have about a half dozen discs w/ that instrument, including at least one w/ Robert Hill shown below - recommended! Dave :D
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BachLuteharpsichord/448494781_4du6B-O.jpg)
Quote from: SonicMan on May 03, 2010, 06:42:08 AM
DA - I really like the lute harpsichord, probably have about a half dozen discs w/ that instrument, including at least one w/ Robert Hill shown below - recommended! Dave :D
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BachLuteharpsichord/448494781_4du6B-O.jpg)
Yes I have that plus this 2CD set also by Robert Hill with lute harpsichord.........
Also a youtube with Robert Hill playing lute harpsichord:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woh8UHdjl1M&feature=PlayList&p=2931F34204F1063D&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=36 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woh8UHdjl1M&feature=PlayList&p=2931F34204F1063D&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=36)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41K108N822L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
http://www.bachplayer.net/
Apart from the fact the it streams Bach's music all day long, there is nothing to write home about. The music, too, is shuffled about. I just heard one movement from an English suite, played by Curtis, then from a Vivaldi transcription, with Koopman at the organ, and now he is playing a variation from 988. I'm led to believe that this site is maintained by the YouTube user called bacholoji. Do visit his (or her, as the case may be) channel if you're a Bach aficionado -- tons of music there!
QuoteGonzalo Ruiz is always on the lookout for another piece to add to his repertoire. Because he'd already mastered most of the finest Baroque music composed for oboe, Mr. Ruiz—a faculty member at New York's Juilliard School and one of today's most sought-after woodwind soloists—decided to look through J.S. Bach's music for pieces originally featuring other instruments to transcribe into new versions showcasing his oboe. In the flexible practices of the 18th century, flutes were often substituted for oboes—Mozart himself once tried to pass off a rewritten oboe concerto as a "new" flute concerto—so Mr. Ruiz turned to Bach's flute literature, which led him directly to one of the most famous flute-centric works in classical music, "Orchestral Suite No. 2." How would it sound, he wondered, if transposed to an oboe-friendlier key?
Mr. Ruiz set to work, and in the process wound up reconstructing what might be one of the lost treasures of classical music: the original version of one of Bach's—and music's—greatest achievements. Mr. Ruiz's recording of the ur- versions of all the suites—restored to their original glory using authentic tunings, instrumentation and performance styles—with his fellow Juilliard faculty member Monica Huggett's Ensemble Sonnerie, earned a 2009 Grammy nomination.
RTRH (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704518904575365941072317932.html)
Interesting. The article goes on to report how the work is much better suited for the oboe, falling under the fingers more naturally and in a much better range than for flute. I had not heard of this performer and may look into this CD or others.
Quote from: Franco on July 15, 2010, 10:19:29 AM
Interesting. The article goes on to report how the work is much better suited for the oboe, falling under the fingers more naturally and in a much better range than for flute.
As "transposed to an oboe-friendlier key"? ; )
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 15, 2010, 10:22:53 AM
As "transposed to an oboe-friendlier key"? ; )
Apparently according to the article it is better for the strings as well, and the thesis put forward (based on research by Ruiz) is that it was for oboe originally and was transcribed for flute at some later point.
Thanks!
For a long time I have wanted to see a highly praised TV series dedicated to Bach's life, produced in the former East Germany during the eighties; but unfortunately it is not available with subtitles in English or Spanish. Anyway, yesterday I found a 2-DVD set rather cheap on
amazon.de (http://www.amazon.de/Grosse-Geschichten-25-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B002LYC1LE/ref=sr_1_1?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1280759690&sr=1-1): :)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51xGaPDCMhL._SS400_.jpg)
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 02, 2010, 06:49:59 AM
For a long time I have wanted to see a highly praised TV series dedicated to Bach's life, produced in the former East Germany during the eighties; but unfortunately it is not available with subtitles in English or Spanish. Anyway, yesterday I found a 2-DVD set rather cheap on amazon.de (http://www.amazon.de/Grosse-Geschichten-25-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B002LYC1LE/ref=sr_1_1?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1280759690&sr=1-1): :)
It includes a great episode where Bach, spending a voluntary year at the kolkhoz, gets inspired to the very best of his most secular music...
Quote from: Franco on July 15, 2010, 10:32:53 AM
Apparently according to the article it is better for the strings as well, and the thesis put forward (based on research by Ruiz) is that it was for oboe originally and was transcribed for flute at some later point.
In S. Rampe´s Bach Ouvertures set for MDG you can hear a presumed original for solo violin and strings (in a minor). At least as convincing as Ruiz´s oboe version.
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 02, 2010, 06:49:59 AM
For a long time I have wanted to see a highly praised TV series dedicated to Bach's life, produced in the former East Germany during the eighties; but unfortunately it is not available with subtitles in English or Spanish. Anyway, yesterday I found a 2-DVD set rather cheap on amazon.de (http://www.amazon.de/Grosse-Geschichten-25-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B002LYC1LE/ref=sr_1_1?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1280759690&sr=1-1): :)
Thanks,
Antoine. I am goimg to order this.
Quote from: premont on August 02, 2010, 12:21:48 PM
Thanks, Antoine. I am goimg to order this.
Great! I recalled that TV series after to watch this HORRIBLE French movie:
(http://i39.tinypic.com/307np01.jpg)
Would it be correct to refer to the aria for tenor from BWV 198 (Der Ewigkeit saphirnes Haus) as a chaconne (or a pasacaglia, perhaps)?
:D What? Bach has only a bungalow? Perhaps that is all he needs however.
I just recently (re) discovered BWV 82, the cantata 'Ich habe genug'. Thanks to a recording with Fischer-Dieskau. What an aria. I immediately searched for a transcription for piano and could not find one, so I began making my own.
Wait, this does have to do with the WTC in a way. I have for sometime thought that Bach wrote some of his best music in E flat major. Especially, I think the Prelude & Fugue in Bk I. in E flat major and the way I relate to it, began my thoughts about that. Having tried my hands at both books, I is easier to learn (at least for an amateur like myself). II is a bit more difficult. As for recordings, although I sort of grew up with the Gould albums, I find myself liking Hewitt as well as any.
Yes, Ich habe genug is also in E flat major.
Quote from: anasazi on October 07, 2010, 03:56:31 PM
Yes, Ich habe genug is also in E flat major.
Isn't BWV 82 in C minor? BWV 82a, which I like more than the original, is transcribed to E minor. Frankly, I unable to imagine such a melancholic opening in E-flat.
Quote from: anasazi on October 07, 2010, 03:56:31 PM
[....]
Yes, Ich habe genug is also in E flat major.
Quote from: Opus106 on October 08, 2010, 12:14:00 AM
Isn't BWV 82 in C minor? BWV 82a, which I like more than the original, is transcribed to E minor. Frankly, I unable to imagine such a melancholic opening in E-flat.
You're right. Both the opening and final aria are in C-minor. My guess is that
anasazi is referring to the 2nd aria
Schlummert ein, ihr matten Augen, which is in E-flat; also melancholic maybe, yet in a more relaxing and peaceful way. (At least that's how I experience it. :))
Quote from: Opus106 on September 08, 2010, 12:16:31 PM
Would it be correct to refer to the aria for tenor from BWV 198 (Der Ewigkeit saphirnes Haus) as a chaconne (or a pasacaglia, perhaps)?
At least it's an interesting thought; it certainly has a repetitive bass line (the 'ground bass'), in a dance-like style 3/4 time.
But I'm just the (interested) layman here. Maybe other members have more knowledge to 'decide'.
Here's a sample of the aria, yet slightly different. It's taken from the
reconstructed Markus-Passion, BWV 247:
Mein Tröster ist nicht mehr bei mir, sung by Martin Petzold, accompanied by the Leipzig Barockorchester and directed by Volker Bräutigam.
http://www.mediafire.com/?5pcpda6vt4429h5
Quote from: Marc on October 08, 2010, 01:13:37 AM
At least it's an interesting thought; it certainly has a repetitive bass line (the 'ground bass'), in a dance-like style 3/4 time.
But I'm just the (interested) layman here. Maybe other members have more knowledge to 'decide'.
Here's a sample of the aria, yet slightly different. It's taken from the reconstructed Markus-Passion, BWV 247: Mein Tröster ist nicht mehr bei mir, sung by Martin Petzold, accompanied by the Leipzig Barockorchester and directed by Volker Bräutigam.
http://www.mediafire.com/?5pcpda6vt4429h5 (http://www.mediafire.com/?5pcpda6vt4429h5)
I posted the question at the Bach Cantatas Yahoo group (http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/33831) (registration is required to view group messages). While it generated some discussion on the topic, no one has yet conclusively stated whether it is a chaconne or not. (Although one member privately informed me via email that it was not.) Currently, they are debating over terminology.
Oh, and thanks for the aria clip. :)
Quote from: Marc on October 08, 2010, 12:25:53 AM
You're right. Both the opening and final aria are in C-minor. My guess is that anasazi is referring to the 2nd aria Schlummert ein, ihr matten Augen, which is in E-flat; also melancholic maybe, yet in a more relaxing and peaceful way. (At least that's how I experience it. :))
Yes, it was Schlummert ein that I was referencing. Sorry, I did not make my post very clear. It is an interesting Bach piece also as (for me) it sounds almost Handel-ian (if you understand what I mean and if that can be used as an adjective here).
Quote from: anasazi on October 08, 2010, 03:42:14 PM
It is an interesting Bach piece also as (for me) it sounds almost Handel-ian (if you understand what I mean and if that can be used as an adjective here).
I either haven't noticed that or don't remember noticing; nevertheless I'll listen to the piece this evening. :) One Bach piece that definitely sounded Handelian to me when I first listened to it, was the Orchestral Suite No. 4 from which he used material for the opening of BWV 110.
Quote from: Opus106 on October 09, 2010, 01:42:31 AM
I either haven't noticed that or don't remember noticing; nevertheless I'll listen to the piece this evening. :) One Bach piece that definitely sounded Handelian to me when I first listened to it, was the Orchestral Suite No. 4 from which he used material for the opening of BWV 110.
Oh. some Bachian Fireworks music?
But it is not that apparent, when you omit the later added trumpet parts (listen to Manze´s splendid recording released by Brilliant).
Quote from: premont on October 09, 2010, 09:38:02 AM
Oh. some Bachian Fireworks music?
Indeed. :D And since it's from [a]
Bach, it can even be considered as a kind of water music.
Quote
But it is not that apparent, when you omit the later added trumpet parts (listen to Manze´s splendid recording released by Brilliant).
Noted, thanks. :) However, the CD (or set) seems OOP. I'll have to check the dark underground of the interwebz for a copy.
Quote from: Opus106 on October 09, 2010, 10:06:59 AM
Indeed. :D And since it's from [a] Bach, it can even be considered as a kind of water music.
Noted, thanks. :) However, the CD (or set) seems OOP. I'll have to check the dark underground of the interwebz for a copy.
Well, Brilliant's complete edition is still waiting for you. :D Although I don't know if those discs are included in the last version of the big box because they are licensed from Denon.
BTW, this weekend I will buy this one:
(https://id312.securedata.net/ravencd.com/merchantmanager/images/uploads/FSF0001ArtFugue350.jpg)
It simply looks irresistible.
Here a description of the content:
J.S. Bach: The Art of Fugue
3¼-hour DVD with two videos
On 2 CDs George Ritchie plays a Thuringian-style organ
Reviews The Gramophone: "...the finest Art of Fugue" Reviews Choir & Organ: "Magnificent" - [FSF-0001] $39.95
"A lavish production, fully justified by a great performance from George Ritchie . . . the finest recording of Bach's Art of Fugue irrespective of media or instrument." reviews The Gramophone, July, 2010
"Magnificent in its uncompromising approach, this remarkable production should be a set text for all university, college and conservatoire courses for performers and academics alike. 'Lay' people and Bach aficionados (with or without their own copy of the score) are certain to gain just as much pleasure and understanding of this monumental work from this endlessly absorbing set" reviews Choir and Organ, July/August 2010.
This package consists of
Two CDs and one 3¼-hour DVD
The DVD contains two major video productions about J. S. Bach:
* a 90-minute program entitled "Desert Fugue" featuring a brilliant presentation by leading Bach scholar Christoph Wolff concerning what many consider to be Bach's ultimate intellectual and musical creation, The Art of Fugue, discussing the milieu in which it was created. As well, "Desert Fugue" includes George Ritchie's enlightening comments on the work and a fascinating interview with American organbuilders Ralph Richards and Bruce Fowkes, especially regarding their Opus 14 built in the style of organs known to Bach and played by him for most of his career in and near central Germany (with emphasis on Thuringian and Saxon builders Gottfried Silbermann, Zacharias Hildebrandt, and Tobias Heinrich Gottfried Trost). Briefly and fascinatingly, the DVD compares the sound of a Dutch/North German organ with the very different, almost orchestral, sound of a central German organ of Bach's day.
* George Ritchie lectures on Bach's fugal and compositional techniques especially as they relate to the Art of Fugue, with musical demonstrations. The lecture discusses the entire work generally and each of the 14 contrapuncti in an hour and 51 minutes.
The Two CDs contain
* George Ritchie's performance of the entire Art of Fugue, BWV 1080, on the Richards, Fowkes & Co. organ completed in 2006 at Pinnacle Presbyterian Church, Scottsdale, Arizona. This organ is built in the style known to Bach in his central German homeland of Thuringia.
* George Ritchie's performance of Contrapunctus 14, Fuga a 3 Soggetti, left uncompleted by Bach in Art of Fugue, as completed by Helmut Walcha
* The CDs also contain George Ritchie's performances of other late works of J. S. Bach:
Ricercar a 6 from the Musical Offering, BWV 1079, played on the Bedient organ, op. 8, at Cornerstone Church, Lincoln, Nebraska.
Vor deinen Thron tret' ich hiermit BWV 668 played on the Taylor and Boody organ, op. 9, at the College of the Holy Cross, Worcester, Massachusetts (borrowed from George Ritchie's recording of the complete Bach organ works on Raven OAR-875)
Canonic Variations on Vom Himmel hoch, da komm ich her BWV 769a played on the Taylor and Boody organ, op. 9, at the College of the Holy Cross, Worcester, Massachusetts (borrowed from George Ritchie's recording of the complete Bach organ works on Raven OAR-875)
The six Schübler Chorales played on the John Brombaugh & Associates organ, op. 26, at Southern Adventist University, Collegedale, Tennessee (borrowed from George Ritchie's recording of the complete Bach organ works on Raven OAR-875)
Packaged with the discs is a booklet containing stoplists and photographs of the organs, registrations used in the recordings, definitions of musical terms, an introduction to the project, notes on the on the other later works of Bach as contained in the additional CD tracks, a brief essay "An Approach to the Art of Fugue" by George Ritchie, and a brief biography of George Ritchie.
All but one track on the CDs and the DVD were recorded by Edward J. Kelly. The entire production was designed and produced by Will Fraser and Simon Still of Fugue State Films of Great Britain. Customers in the US and Canada will normally receive the NTSC version of this program as compatible with the TV systems in the US and Canada. Customers elsewhere or in the US may request a PAL version for the European TV system when the order is placed, in the "comments" section of the check out.
Review in The Gramophone, July 2010:
A lavish production, fully justified by a great performance from George Ritchie
To all outward appearances - even the label on which it has been released - this would seem to be a filmed performance of The Art of Fugue. But that's not the case at all. True, one of the three discs encased within a very hefty and attractive box is a DVD, but The Art of Fugue itself appears on two audio CDs.
That's no disappointment. American Bach specialist George Ritchie offers up such an intensely focused and directly communicative performance that it's hard to think what any visual element could contribute other than providing an irritating distraction. Ritchie writes in the accompanying booklet that this is a work that "pleases the mind and the ear in equal measure" and in the DVD sets out his interpretative goal, hoping that listeners will be "thinking about the music, not what I'm doing to it". As good as his word, Ritchie's CD performances are of the type that demand the closest attention from listeners - if this was on film, it would be one best experienced with eyes firmly shut - and while his playing is neat and utterly devoid of idiosyncrasy, it draws the ear so fully into Bach's music that I have no hesitation in describing this as a reference recording. Which is not to say that Ritchie is not guilty of the odd indiscretion - a strangely stiff and lumpy approach to Contrapunctus 11 and some waywardness in the Canon alla Ottava - but these barely ruffle the surface and any doubts are quickly smoothed over by the lovely organ sound and Ritchie's subtle and highly sensitive use of registration, all details of which are mapped out in the booklet.
The contents of the DVD are a worthy accessory to the two CDs. On a practical level, navigation is poor with no real method, other than trial and error, of finding specific points on the disc; with two films and three hours' playing time, that is a major drawback. But it's worth persevering with random searches and copious use of the forward and backward buttons, for the first of those films is a tremendously illuminating and magnificently produced documentary on the background to the recording itself, with interviews with Christoph Wolff and Messrs. Richards and Fowkes (who built the Arizona organ on which the recording was made), as well as with Ritchie himself enthusing about the work and, in one of the film's more fascinating episodes, the completion of the final Fugue by Ritchie's own teacher Helmut Walcha.
The second film is a section-by-section description of the work with Ritchie highlighting the problems (illustrated by the edition of the score used in the recordings) and giving his solutions to them; an indulgence which most performers would envy but which is justified here by the uniquely dedicated work of everyone involved in what is, for me, the finest recording of Bach's Art of Fugue irrespective of media or instrument
Review by Graeme Kay in Choir and Organ, July/August 2010:
The vocabulary of modern documentary TV is deeply ingrained in our lives. It's driven by a desire to hang on to the viewer at all costs – all too often the result is sound-bite scripts, frenetic editorial cutting and a concentration on arresting, but not always relevant, visual imagery. Fugue State Films' Art of Fugue project is the absolute antithesis: conventional broadcasters would run a mile. The 2CD + DVD package is built around the US organist and pedagogue George Ritchie's performance of Bach's revised version, on the Richards, Fowkes organ of Pinnacle Presbyterian, Scottsdale, Arizona (with supplementary Bach works including Helmut Walcha's completion of the final fugue, played on Taylor and Boody, Bedient and Brombaugh organs).
The audio tracks are complimented by a three-and-a-half hour DVD, Desert Fugue. In this documentary Ritchie and the doyen of Bach scholars, Christoph Wolff, are intercut as they discuss the meaning and impact of the work on the history of western music; organ builders Ralph Richards and Bruce Fowkes provide illumination on the organ of the Bach era (and modern US organ design); and finally, Ritchie and Wolff discuss the reception history of the Art of Fugue. Long pieces-to-camera are cut together with a linking narration by director Will Fraser that allows the story to unfold with the kind of pace and depth which the work's rich complexities, and the protagonists' detailed knowledge and experience, fully deserve. Fraser makes copious use of stills and recorded footage from Arizona, Leipzig, Naumburg, the Netherlands, England, and the Richards, Fowkes factory, to provide a visual counterpoint to the detailed narrative. To cap this, Ritchie sits at the Scottsdale console to provide nearly two hours of engaging, spontaneous bar-by-bar analysis, with helpful cutaways to the score; there is even a booklet with written notes and organ specifications.
Magnificent in its uncompromising approach, this remarkable production should be a set text for all university, college and conservatoire courses for performers and academics alike. 'Lay' people and Bach aficionados (with or without their own copy of the score) are certain to gain just as much pleasure and understanding of this monumental work from this endlessly absorbing set.
Yes, Antoine, irresistible. I own his Bach integral which is most symphatic. But where can I get the AoF from? Not even Amazon US lists it, and purchasing CDs from USA means furthermore double cost for me (added tax and custom).
... Presto Classical, my dear friend:
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Fugue%2BState%2BFilms/FSFDVD0001
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 09, 2010, 01:14:54 PM
... Presto Classical, my dear friend:
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Fugue%2BState%2BFilms/FSFDVD0001
Gosh. my most important supplier of CDs next to JPC.
Thanks, Antoine.
Ordered along with Badiarovs cellosuites, Kuijkens second Brandenburg set and the gambasonatas with Laura Alvini on harpsichord. :)
Quote from: premont on October 09, 2010, 02:36:54 PM
Ordered along with Badiarovs cellosuites, Kuijkens second Brandenburg set and the gambasonatas with Laura Alvini on harpsichord. :)
I am waiting for my Kuijken's Brandenburgs ordered from JPC, my order was sent almost three weeks ago. I also have his DHM version and that disc under Leonhardt on Seon.
I ordered that Badiarov (and Foccroulle's AoF) from Ricercar's website (Outhere) on September 15 and I am still waiting for. You can read my claim on that website (it's the only comment that they have got!).
Some months ago, I recommended that Alvini's recording to another friend, then he listened to some excerpts online and one day, while we were walking and talking about music, he said to me: "It's excellent, just excepting that andante of the second sonata; it's too slow!". Then I said: But right now we are "walking" in that tempo my friend. And he replied: "You're right. That tempo is perfect!". ;D
I ordered the Ritchie from Presto and the others from JPC, so I am optimistic.
Unfortunately, the people of JPC is a bit lazy these days; if they don't have the material in existence, quickly you will receive a message informing that the product is not available. In my experience in the past they searched more carefully. Anyway, you can always get Alvini on the excellent Tactus website: quick attention, low prices, secure server and, in some cases, free shipping. :)
Quote from: Opus106 on October 09, 2010, 01:42:31 AM
I either haven't noticed that or don't remember noticing; nevertheless I'll listen to the piece this evening. :) One Bach piece that definitely sounded Handelian to me when I first listened to it, was the Orchestral Suite No. 4 from which he used material for the opening of BWV 110.
Not like Handel, as in the Fireworks music. More like the four-square plod of the various anthems. Actually, Ombra came to mind at one point, but that is in 3, not 4. Perhaps it is just the feeling. Although when I hear Fischer-Dieskau sing Schlummert, I don't feel that way all. It's only when I try to play it on my keyboard. Maybe it's just me!!!
Now I have to go and listen to the Suite No. 4 to see if I can hear what you mean.....
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 09, 2010, 04:05:44 PM
Anyway, you can always get Alvini on the excellent Tactus website: quick attention, low prices, secure server and, in some cases, free shipping. :)
Just checked: Alvini's disc costs EUR 9.90.- on Tactus. Same price for Vartolo's double set of Goldberg Variations:
http://www.tactus.biz/store/product_info.php?products_id=326
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 09, 2010, 04:16:46 PM
Just checked: Alvini's disc costs EUR 9.90.- on Tactus. Same price for Vartolo's double set of Goldberg Variations:
http://www.tactus.biz/store/product_info.php?products_id=326
Thanks Antoine.
A propos Vartolo (out of topic): What do you think of Vartolos Frescobaldi (or Trabaci for that matter)? At first I found him dreadful, but I have succeded to acquire the taste for him, and now I enjoy him, more so than I enjoy Loreggian. But I maintain, that I do not find Vartolos style suited for the AoF.
Quote from: premont on October 09, 2010, 04:59:12 PM
A propos Vartolo (out of topic): What do you think of Vartolos Frescobaldi (or Trabaci for that matter)? At first I found him dreadful, but I have succeded to acquire the taste for him, and now I enjoy him, more so than I enjoy Loreggian. But I maintain, that I do not find Vartolos style suited for the AoF.
I like very much his Frescobaldi and I have purchased all his discs on Tactus. I think Vartolo and Jean-Marc Aymes (Ligia Digital) are my favorite Frescobaldi's performers. But Vartolo has not an easy style –sometimes is exasperating slow and deliberated, like Rübsam in Bach's organ works- and Frescobaldi himself is an extremely complex composer. I also purchased Vartolo's discs devoted to Zippoli and Cavazzoni, but I have not had time to listen to them yet.
If you recall I have been a strong supporter of Vartolo's AoF on Naxos. But I must recognize that your comment about his lack of a basic pulse ruined to some degree my pleasure with that recording. Incredibly, I was not aware of that fact until your comment and now when I listen to that disc, it's permanently in my mind. Well, I suppose those are the unpredictable consequences of the dialogue. :)
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 09, 2010, 06:05:52 PM
If you recall I have been a strong supporter of Vartolo's AoF on Naxos. But I must recognize that your comment about his lack of a basic pulse ruined to some degree my pleasure with that recording. Incredibly, I was not aware of that fact until your comment and now when I listen to that disc, it's permanently in my mind. Well, I suppose those are the unpredictable consequences of the dialogue. :)
Let's be clear here. There's little point in listening to Vartolo if you want a strong basic pulse; he's all about rhythmic hesitations, staggering of musical lines and other agogic devices. For me, what makes Vartolo's AoF compelling and memorable is how superbly he varies the pulse.
So don't fight Vartolo, just go with his flow.
Quote from: Bulldog on October 09, 2010, 09:02:56 PM
Let's be clear here. There's little point in listening to Vartolo if you want a strong basic pulse; he's all about rhythmic hesitations, staggering of musical lines and other agogic devices. For me, what makes Vartolo's AoF compelling and memorable is how superbly he varies the pulse.
So don't fight Vartolo, just go with his flow.
Yes, I understand all those characteristics and his recording of the AoF is still one of my favorites. But now, I am aware of his particularly variable pulse there: any "variation" requires, as matter of definition, a recognizable "fundamental pulse" on which to come back and, sometimes, that lacks in Vartolo. And I don't see that characteristic like a problem inherent to Vartolo's style in Bach; for example, I don't see it in his Goldbergs.
Quote from: anasazi on October 09, 2010, 04:08:25 PM
Not like Handel, as in the Fireworks music. More like the four-square plod of the various anthems. Actually, Ombra came to mind at one point, but that is in 3, not 4. Perhaps it is just the feeling. Although when I hear Fischer-Dieskau sing Schlummert, I don't feel that way all. It's only when I try to play it on my keyboard. Maybe it's just me!!!
Ah. Then it's not surprising that I'm not hearing the same thing as you are: I'm utterly ignorant of Handel's output beyond a couple of orchestral works (yes, the obvious couple). :)
Quote from: Opus106 on October 10, 2010, 08:14:32 AM
Ah. Then it's not surprising that I'm not hearing the same thing as you are: I'm utterly ignorant of Handel's output beyond a couple of orchestral works (yes, the obvious couple). :)
I have always felt especially "Bachian" the works from Handel's Op. 2, excellent trio sonatas which perfectly could have been composed by Bach... A great compliment for "
il caro Sassone", I think. ;)
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 10, 2010, 12:40:21 AM
Yes, I understand all those characteristics and his recording of the AoF is still one of my favorites. But now, I am aware of his particularly variable pulse there: any "variation" requires, as matter of definition, a recognizable "fundamental pulse" on which to come back and, sometimes, that lacks in Vartolo. And I don't see that characteristic like a problem inherent to Vartolo's style in Bach; for example, I don't see it in his Goldbergs.
I look at this issue in a simple fashion. Significant variation from a basic pulse involves risk. Of course, it also involves some great potential rewards. As the listener, I decide the net result, and for me Vartolo's net results are superb in the AoF.
Alright, after reading Eric Siblin's book, The Cello Suites, I'm officially in the mood to finally start REALLY exploring Bach's works (besides the cello suites and solo violin suites).
Time to finally join the fray of Bach-o-holics. :-\ :D
Cool Ray! :) For keyboard why not try WTC book 2? There are many moments of pure beauty. 0:)
One of my favorite cantatas is bwv 82, you might want to try that one. Oh it is so dark. :'(
Quote from: DavidW on November 06, 2010, 06:51:17 PM
Cool Ray! :) For keyboard why not try WTC book 2? There are many moments of pure beauty. 0:)
One of my favorite cantatas is bwv 82, you might want to try that one. Oh it is so dark. :'(
I'm pretty excited, because there is A LOT of Bach I have yet to hear. I have only heard the WTC a few times, and there are a lot of beautiful pieces. I'm having a bit of trouble with 'getting full enjoyment' of his keyboard works, but it has been awhile now since I've listened to them.
So keyboard works, Mass in B minor (only heard it once in a live concert performance), St. Matthew's Passion and St. John's Passion, and harpsichord concertos..........so much I haven't explored yet. Should be a lot of fun! :)
Wow you really haven't heard alot of Bach! :o I actually assumed you've heard all of the warhorses I was going to start naming off bwv #s for organ works. ;D
Check out bwv 1052, that is my second favorite concerto (my fav being the double violin). I believe there was a cantata that used that as a sinfonia... can't remember :)
Quote from: DavidW on November 06, 2010, 07:00:41 PM
Wow you really haven't heard alot of Bach! :o I actually assumed you've heard all of the warhorses I was going to start naming off bwv #s for organ works. ;D
Check out bwv 1052, that is my second favorite concerto (my fav being the double violin). I believe there was a cantata that used that as a sinfonia... can't remember :)
I have the violin concertos, including the double violin concerto (enjoy very much) and the Brandenburgs (don't really enjoy).
I am interested in learning more about the cantatas and the harpsichord concertos, including the double harpsichord concertos (of which a movement is played in Kubrick's Barry Lyndon).
I have heard one disc of cantatas (with Gardiner), but it was awhile ago and, at the time, just really wasn't interested in the Baroque sound and Bach at the time (other than the cello suites or violin sontas/partitas).
But I'm ready and interested now. :)
I know I'm in the rest place since there are a lot of Bach experts and enthusiasts here, and tons of thread on his music! :)
Yeah the Bachians on board can be quite helpful. :)
Quote from: ChamberNut on November 06, 2010, 06:55:36 PM
I'm pretty excited, because there is A LOT of Bach I have yet to hear. I have only heard the WTC a few times, and there are a lot of beautiful pieces. I'm having a bit of trouble with 'getting full enjoyment' of his keyboard works, but it has been awhile now since I've listened to them.
So keyboard works, Mass in B minor (only heard it once in a live concert performance), St. Matthew's Passion and St. John's Passion, and harpsichord concertos..........so much I haven't explored yet. Should be a lot of fun! :)
Hi
Ray - if you currently do not own much of the vocal works, then one of the best bargains around at the moment is shown below - has been discussed in one of the other threads; now selling for about $44 on the Amazon Marketplace; contains 22 discs and includes the Passions, Mass in BMinor, et al. I already own a handful of the Gardiner recordings but will sell them off, so even more of a deal! Dave :D
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51dH5xXNtSL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Gardiner's interpretation of the passions, xmas oratorio etc is rather superficial. :-\
Quote from: DavidW on November 07, 2010, 05:47:40 AM
Gardiner's interpretation of the passions, xmas oratorio etc is rather superficial. :-\
My own history with Gardiner has not been easy -he sometimes seems to me excessively "nervous"-, but I have never considered him as a "superficial" director. Right now -motivated by your comment-, I am listening to his Johannes-Passion and, IMO, it's an excellent version, superbly sung and, overall, quite recommendable.
I don't know if he is a good choice for introductory purposes, but I think he is a very respectable Bachian.
BTW, this is only my opinion and David's opinion is also a respectable opinion, IMHO. ;D
He goes too fast, taking everything at a jaunty gallop. And then he has so much trouble with clear articulation. I wouldn't call Gardiner a respectable Bachian as much as the worst I've heard.
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 07, 2010, 06:41:26 AM
My own history with Gardiner has not been easy -he sometimes seems to me excessively "nervous"-, but I have never considered him as a "superficial" director. Right now -motivated by your comment-, I am listening to his Johannes-Passion and, IMO, it's an excellent version, superbly sung and, overall, quite recommendable.
I agree. Gardiner does receive the tag of "superficial" from some sources, but my take on it is that Gardiner offers highly celebratory interpretations instead of devotional readings. For me, that's just the ticket.
Well I think that either side Ray will fall on the issue he needs to get in some quality listening before hand. Blind buying a 22 cd box set would be a bit silly. Especially that set is known to be a polarizing love or hate it kind of interpretation. :)
Quote from: DavidW on November 07, 2010, 07:11:13 AM
Well I think that either side Ray will fall on the issue he needs to get in some quality listening before hand. Blind buying a 22 cd box set would be a bit silly.
Yes, very silly. First, one needs to determine what type of interpretation is wanted. If a high degree of reverence is wanted, buying Gardiner would be a waste of money.
Quote from: DavidW on November 07, 2010, 06:47:14 AM
He goes too fast, taking everything at a jaunty gallop. And then he has so much trouble with clear articulation. I wouldn't call Gardiner a respectable Bachian as much as the worst I've heard.
I bought and got rid of a number of his phase 1 Bach recordings. I did not like the sense of rush. However, the recordings on his own label, much more recent, have matured and they have been rethought allowing more space and for the solo arias to be more reflective. I would not want that big box. But for the cantatas, I have enjoyed all the double discs I have bought.
Mike
I'll try some of those newer recordings then Mike. :)
Well, since Gardiner seems to have evoked some conflicting comments, I decided to listen to two versions of the BWV 147 Cantata that I own currently - first, I still like Gardiner (PIs, excellent vocalists, and I like the instruments up front and in my face - tempos not a concern for me - just a 2 min difference between the 2 conductors in this work); now, I do like Suzuki more (and hopefully so since I bought into the 4 anniversary boxes a while back, i.e. 40 discs).
Now, I would not presume to tell anyone to buy a 22-CD box w/o having heard some of the recordings and having done comparisons; but I do own a half dozen of these discs in the Gardiner box offering and was comfortable w/ the purchase - my purpose was to point out (as others have done in the purchases thread) that the box is a steal at basically $2 a disc - of course, assuming that Gardiner satisfies, and he indeed has for many listeners over the years - these works always seem to elicit varied opinions but the ultimate choice is always up to the purchaser! :)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516SRTG7X8L._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517C4Z6b%2BKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 07, 2010, 06:41:26 AM
My own history with Gardiner has not been easy -he sometimes seems to me excessively "nervous"-, but I have never considered him as a "superficial" director. Right now -motivated by your comment-, I am listening to his Johannes-Passion and, IMO, it's an excellent version, superbly sung and, overall, quite recommendable.
My experience with Gardiner´s Bach is mixed and limited. I find his Orchestral suites and Brandenburgs - first and foremost the latter - outstanding. My first acquaintance with his Bach vocal music was the h-minor Mass, and I recall a hypomanic Gloria and a Kyrie and Credo lacking in depth. But his SJP has got much dramatic tension and captures the spirit of this work well IMO. And the musicians are first class. Now I intend to purchase the newly rereleased Archiv Sacred cantatas box to get a broader view of his style.
Dip Your Ears, No. 105
Chailly's Bach
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/11/dip-your-ears-no-105.html
(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/11/dip-your-ears-no-105.html)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Txb17nlBL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
J.S. Bach
Christmas Oratorio
Riccardo Chailly
incl. Carolyn Sampson
2CD Decca (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003ZGK3UI/goodmusicguide-20)
Can I ask a silly/annoying question? The Sonatas & Partitas for solo violin and the cello suites are considered masterpieces, but how do the sonatas for violin and keyboard (BWV 1014-1026) and cello sonatas compare to the two? Simply in their forms I am tempted to imagine "these must be just as good, but with some accompaniment as well", but in the case of the cello sonatas especially, they are much less widely recorded. Are these works adaptations, or lower in inspiration - essentially, what's their story? I assume that the cello pieces were originally written for an earlier version of the instrument - were the suites and sonatas written for slightly different instruments, and does that in some way account for the neglect of the sonatas?
Also, a really, really stupid question. Why are there so-called trio sonatas for (as I would expect) an instrument trio, but also for solo organ?
Quote from: Lethe on February 07, 2011, 08:01:28 AM
Can I ask a silly/annoying question? The Sonatas & Partitas for solo violin and the cello suites are considered masterpieces, but how do the sonatas for violin and keyboard (BWV 1014-1026) and cello sonatas compare to the two? Simply in their forms I am tempted to imagine "these must be just as good, but with some accompaniment as well", but in the case of the cello sonatas especially, they are much less widely recorded. Are these works adaptations, or lower in inspiration - essentially, what's their story? I assume that the cello pieces were originally written for an earlier version of the instrument - were the suites and sonatas written for slightly different instruments, and does that in some way account for the neglect of the sonatas?
Also, a really, really stupid question. Why are there so-called trio sonatas for (as I would expect) an instrument trio, but also for solo organ?
The trio sonatas for organ are are written for three distinct voices, left hand, right and and pedal, and are true "trio sonatas." They have often been transcribed for a tradition trio ensemble.
I don't know of any accompanied cello sonatas by Bach, perhaps you mean the sonatas for viola da gamba? The sonatas for instrument unaccompanied are very different than the sonatas for accompanied instrument. In them Bach manages to create counterpoint using a single instrument, using a combination of double-stops and alternation of notes in different registers. They are miracles of composition, and the accompanied sonatas are more or less standard baroque sonatas, definitely as good as any that have been written, but not in a category of their own. For whatever reason, I feel more love for the accompanied sonatas for da Gamba than for violin.
Quote from: Lethe on February 07, 2011, 08:01:28 AM
Why are there so-called trio sonatas for (as I would expect) an instrument trio, but also for solo organ?
Actually, the works (BWV 525-530) were originally intended for the organ, thereby condensing three instrumental parts (harpsichord, violin and cello) into one organ (sort of, I guess, like the concerti he transcribed and the one he wrote (the Italian Concerto) for keyboard).
Thanks for the answers! I do mean the sonatas originally for viola da gamba (BWV 1027–1029), but I was under the impression that they were now generally played on the cello - the way that his "cello suites" have become associated with the instrument as well, despite being written for an older incarnation of that instrument (I think) - also the viola da gamba?
I generally see them called cello sonatas in the non-HIP recordings anyway. Speaking of which, what does this cover mean? It seems to credit him with both instruments, is this via overdubbing?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51RgLvisEpL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000XYTQV2/?tag=goodmusicguideco)
Quote from: Opus106 on February 07, 2011, 08:32:10 AM
thereby condensing three instrumental parts (harpsichord, violin and cello) into one organ
Baroque trio sonatas usually have two treble parts, so perhaps you meant two violins and harpsichord (and/or cello) continuo?
Quote from: masolino on February 07, 2011, 08:39:58 AM
Baroque trio sonatas usually have two treble parts, so perhaps you meant two violins and harpsichord (and/or cello) continuo?
No, I was just misinformed. Thanks for the correction. :)
Quote from: Lethe on February 07, 2011, 08:38:47 AM
Thanks for the answers! I do mean the sonatas originally for viola da gamba (BWV 1027–1029), but I was under the impression that they were now generally played on the cello - the way that his "cello suites" have become associated with the instrument as well, despite being written for an older incarnation of that instrument (I think) - also the viola da gamba?
I generally see them called cello sonatas in the non-HIP recordings anyway. Speaking of which, what does this cover mean? It seems to credit him with both instruments, is this via overdubbing?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51RgLvisEpL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000XYTQV2/?tag=goodmusicguideco)
The cello pre-dates Bach's time and Bach's cello suites were written for cello, although the last one appears to be for a cello with an fifth string. At the time cello was typically used as a continuo instrument (reinforcing the bass line) and viola da gamba as a solo instrument, so writing for solo cello was something out of the ordinary.
I think performance of the viola da gamba suites on cello would have to be considered a transcription, since the instruments are rather different and have a different tuning. I have half a dozen recordings, and only one on cello, which I don't find very satisfactory. I don't find the cello sound suits the music.
I'm not sure it would be possible to play the cello suites on viola da gamba without some adaption, since the tuning of the instruments is different and it is not clear all of the double-stopping and chords on the cello could be played on viola da gamba without some modification.
Quote from: Opus106 on February 07, 2011, 08:48:23 AM
No, I was just misinformed. Thanks for the correction. :)
I think the "trio" sonata in baroque music really refers to three independent voices. Sometimes Bach sonatas for solo instrument and harpsichord are described as trio sonatas because the right hand of the harpsichord acts as an independent melody (rather than simply filling in harmony). But more typically a trio sonata is two melody instruments with continuo, which can be a harpsichord more usually with a cello or bassoon reinforcing the bass line.
Quote from: Scarpia on February 07, 2011, 08:55:46 AM
Sometimes Bach sonatas for solo instrument and harpsichord are described as trio sonatas because the right hand of the harpsichord acts as an independent melody (rather than simply filling in harmony).
What are some actual examples of this? Just curious.
ps. I recall some modern transcriptions of the organ trio sonatas do this, but at the moment I can't think of any such use by Bach himself.
Quote from: masolino on February 07, 2011, 10:00:35 AM
What are some actual examples of this? Just curious.
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trio_sonata) puts the accompanied sonatas (what Scarpia meant by "sonatas for solo instrument and harpsichord") in that category.
QuoteA further innovation of Bach was the creation of what are strictly trio sonatas, involving a concertante (obligato) harpsichord part and one melodic instrument, thus for two players. Known examples are the six sonatas for harpsichord and solo violin (BWV 1014-1019), three sonatas for harpsichord and viola da gamba (BWV 1027-1029) and the three sonatas for harpsichord and flauto traverso (BWV 1030-1032)
Quote from: Opus106 on February 07, 2011, 10:07:58 AM
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trio_sonata) puts the accompanied sonatas (what Scarpia meant by "sonatas for solo instrument and harpsichord") in that category.
Did Bach call them 'trio' sonatas himself?
Quote from: masolino on February 07, 2011, 10:00:35 AM
What are some actual examples of this? Just curious.
ps. I recall some modern transcriptions of the organ trio sonatas do this, but what else...
Bach Trio Sonata BWV 1039 and the sonata for viola da gamba BWV 1027 are essentially identical. The second flute becomes the harpsichord's right hand. The viola da gamba sonata is not typical called a trio sonata but has its essential form.
Quote from: masolino on February 07, 2011, 10:10:31 AM
Did Bach call them 'trio' sonatas himself?
I don't know. However, BWV 1025, scored for violin and harpsichord, is called Trio in A major. (I'm quoting from Christoph Wolff's
Johann Sebastian Bach: The Learned Musician,
p. 357 (http://books.google.com/books?id=ronZdkhQouMC&lpg=PP1&dq=bach%20the%20learned%20musician&pg=PA357#v=onepage&q&f=true).)
Quote from: Scarpia on February 07, 2011, 10:13:58 AM
The viola da gamba sonata is not typical called a trio sonata but has its essential form.
No indeed. The viola da gamba sonatas were called 'sonate a cembalo e viola da gamba' in contemporary sources, and the trio sonata BWV 1039 is typically called a transcription of the gamba sonata BWV 1027.
Quote from: Opus106 on February 07, 2011, 10:16:46 AM
I don't know. However, BWV 1025, scored for violin and harpsichord, is called Trio in A major. (I'm quoting from Christoph Wolff's Johann Sebastian Bach: The Learned Musician, p. 357.)
http://www.bach-digital.de/receive/BachDigitalSource_source_00001140
It's Bach's transcription of a solo 'sonata' (suite) by Weiss. "Trio..." in another person's hand. Oh well. My curiosity is satisfied. ;) Thank you both.
http://www.youtube.com/v/7AaeJOvf7vI
http://www.youtube.com/v/YxWvJ5obJSs
http://www.youtube.com/v/5yGSyIYmfY8
Quote from: masolino on February 07, 2011, 10:10:31 AM
Did Bach call them 'trio' sonatas himself?
Well, not exactly "trio sonatas", but apparently the name "harpsichord trios" was used in the Bach circle:
QuoteWriting in the 1770s, Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach still admired these pieces: 'The six harpsichord trios are amongst the finest works of my dearly beloved father. They still sound excellent and give me great pleasure, although they are over 50 years old. There are several Adagios in them which even nowadays could not be set in a more singing style.'
IIRC the quote is from a letter to Forkel.
Immortal Bach
(via Schickele)
Standing erect, he was two feet wide.
http://www.youtube.com/v/vtW7cu56MRs
Two new versions of the Johannes-Passion are announced for the next weeks:
J.S. Bach - St John Passion, BWV245
Mark Padmore (Evangelist), Hanno Müller-Brachmann (Jesus), Peter Harvey (Pilatus), Benarda Fink, Joanna Lunn & Katharine Fuge
The Monteverdi Choir & The English Baroque Soloists
Sir John Eliot Gardiner, direction
Rec. in Königslutter in 2003
2-CD set, SDG
J.S. Bach - Johannes Passion BWV 245
Maria Keohane, soprano; Carlos Mena, countertenor; Hans Jörg Mammel, tenor; Valerio Contaldo, tenor; Matthias Vieweg, bass; Stephan
MacLeod, bass
Ricercar Consort
Philippe Pierlot
2-CD set, Mirare
:)
There's also Brüggen's.
Markus Schäfer (Evangelist), Thomas Oliemans (Jesus), Carolyn Sampson (soprano), Michael Chance (alto), Marcel Beekman (tenor) & Peter Kooij (bass)
Cappella Amsterdam & Orchestra of the 18th Century, Frans Brüggen (direction)
Glossa
Quote from: Opus106 on February 23, 2011, 05:31:16 AM
There's also Brüggen's.
Markus Schäfer (Evangelist), Thomas Oliemans (Jesus), Carolyn Sampson (soprano), Michael Chance (alto), Marcel Beekman (tenor) & Peter Kooij (bass)
Cappella Amsterdam & Orchestra of the 18th Century, Frans Brüggen (direction)
Glossa
Great! Recorded live, as usual with Brüggen.
One has got to be a hard-boiled completist to think of acquiring three SJP´s in one breath :o
Quote from: James on February 26, 2011, 06:16:37 AM
[asin]B0000027TV[/asin]
Anner Bylsma has recorded the suites twice, both times on Baroque instruments with gut rather than metal strings, thus making for a warmer and more diffuse sound.
Anyway, the "Servais" cello doesn't have all-gut strings, but more exactly metal-overspun gut strings.
Quote from: aulos on February 23, 2011, 01:06:36 PM
One has got to be a hard-boiled completist to think of acquiring three SJP´s in one breath :o
Go for it, then! :D
And don't forget a 'new' SMP by De Nederlandse Bachvereniging & Jos van Veldhoven, expected to be released on Bach's 326th birthday.
Hurrah! ;D
Quote from: Marc on February 26, 2011, 07:28:51 AM
Go for it, then! :D
And don't forget a 'new' SMP by De Nederlandse Bachvereniging & Jos van Veldhoven, expected to be released on Bach's 326th birthday.
Hurrah! ;D
Will it be released in SACD format? I am still trying to nail down Veldhoven's last SMP, which has turned out to be much harder to find ...
Quote from: aulos on February 23, 2011, 01:06:36 PM
One has got to be a hard-boiled completist to think of acquiring three SJP´s in one breath :o
Guilty. :-[
I will probably purchase all those three versions in the future, but at the moment I desesperately need just one of them. :)
Quote from: Coopmv on February 26, 2011, 07:55:35 AM
Will it be released in SACD format?
Yep. Probably hybrid (I hope).
Excellent. Thanks for the links, James.
Quote from: James on March 05, 2011, 07:06:16 AM
To those who don't have the original classic recordings .. just spotted this new box that will have it all under one roof.
[asin]B004I4HCUA[/asin]
http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/cat/single?PRODUCT_NR=4779510
The Brandenburg Concertos on this set can conceivably have better SQ than the first remastered BC set, as the original recording was analog and remastering technology has made tremendous strides since the early 1980's.
Quote from: Coopmv on March 05, 2011, 01:40:10 PM
The Brandenburg Concertos on this set can conceivably have better SQ than the first remastered BC set, as the original recording was analog and remastering technology has made tremendous strides since the early 1980's.
If you mean the BC set by EC (English Concert) ;), no the original recording was not analogue, but rather early digital recording.
(http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics2/brandenburg-pinnock.jpg)
Quote from: FideLeo on March 06, 2011, 03:37:54 AM
If you mean the BC set by EC (English Concert) ;), no the original recording was not analogue, but rather early digital recording.
(http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics2/brandenburg-pinnock.jpg)
Are you sure? I have this recording on LP (besides a twofer CD), which does not say digital. During the period leading up to the ultimate near-demise of LP's when record companies released many recordings both on LP and CD, any recordings that were made digitally but released on LP would have "Digital Recording" prominently displayed on the LP jacket but I did not find such label ...
Quote from: FideLeo on March 06, 2011, 03:37:54 AM
If you mean the BC set by EC (English Concert) ;), no the original recording was not analogue, but rather early digital recording.
(http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics2/brandenburg-pinnock.jpg)
Yes, it was digital all the way.
BWV 565 played on a glass harp
http://www.youtube.com/v/XKRj-T4l-e8
Working on my traversal of the complete works of Bach. I'm up to BWV 3. ;D Seriously, that is a fine piece, particularly the duet for soprano and alto (I think, maybe two sopranos) with oboe d'amore. Astonishing counterpoint among those two voices. I'm listening to Rilling. What is the finest recorded performance of that piece?
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on March 18, 2011, 09:05:31 AM
Working on my traversal of the complete works of Bach. I'm up to BWV 3. ;D Seriously, that is a fine piece, particularly the duet for soprano and alto (I think, maybe two sopranos) with oboe d'amore. Astonishing counterpoint among those two voices. I'm listening to Rilling. What is the finest recorded performance of that piece?
I favor Suzuki's recording, especially for the bass aria sung by Peter Kooij. Concerning the aria for soprano and ato, I should relate that Suzuki's pacing is much quicker than Rilling (some folks might not like that). My problem with Rilling is his use of modern instruments; just doesn't have the bite of period instruments. Gardiner's is also a fine account.
Quote from: Bulldog on March 18, 2011, 10:30:34 AM
I favor Suzuki's recording, especially for the bass aria sung by Peter Kooij. Concerning the aria for soprano and ato, I should relate that Suzuki's pacing is much quicker than Rilling (some folks might not like that). My problem with Rilling is his use of modern instruments; just doesn't have the bite of period instruments. Gardiner's is also a fine account.
I agree, I would also prefer original instruments. If there were a complete set (without boy sopranos) that I could have gotten for even twice what I paid for the Hanssler complete Bach edition I would have gone for it. But these Hanssler recordings have enough clarity of texture (despite the modern instruments) that I can appreciate the music. My plan is to pick up individual HIP recordings when I come across pieces I particularly like in Rilling's set.
While we are on the topic, what do people think of the Leusing cantata cycle from Brilliant classics?
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on March 18, 2011, 10:54:40 AM
I agree, I would also prefer original instruments. If there were a complete set (without boy sopranos) that I could have gotten for even twice what I paid for the Hanssler complete Bach edition I would have gone for it. But these Hanssler recordings have enough clarity of texture (despite the modern instruments) that I can appreciate the music. My plan is to pick up individual HIP recordings when I come across pieces I particularly like in Rilling's set.
While we are on the topic, what do people think of the Leusing cantata cycle from Brilliant classics?
It's fairly good, nothing more. By the way, Leusink uses boy sopranos.
Quote from: Bulldog on March 18, 2011, 11:03:36 AM
It's fairly good, nothing more. By the way, Leusink uses boy sopranos.
Blech! (sorry, couldn't restrain myself)
Quote from: Bulldog on March 18, 2011, 11:03:36 AM
It's fairly good, nothing more. By the way, Leusink uses boy sopranos.
In the choir only. Not as soloists.
Listened to that soprano-alto duet in BWV 3 again. I agree, a baroque oboe d'amore would have added some zest to the texture, but the two vocalists in Rilling's recording, Arleen Auger and Gabriele Schrechenbach, bring so much grace to this performance that it is hard to remember that it could have been better.
Also listened to a bit of Trevor Pinnock's recording of the Goldberg variations on Archiv. I agree the harpsichord brings a clarity to the texture that can't be achieved on piano, but I can only take about 10 minutes at a time before the ears start to complain. :-\
Organic Bach
& other new Bach releases
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/bach_logo_png3.png)
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=2890 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=2890)
Organ Works with Hansjörg Albrecht (Oehms), High-romantic pianism with Simone Dinnerstein (Sony), Partitas with Irma Issakadze (Oehms), Murray Perahia (Sony), Freddy Kempf (BIS), Jeremy Denk (Azica), and the Well Tempered Clavier (Book II) with Richard Egarr (Harmonia Mundi).
Gregorians of the world, unite! It's 31st March.
Oh, and remember to poke fun at the Julians tomorrow.
Quote from: James on April 23, 2011, 06:13:26 AM
MUSICAL OFFERING
In 1747 Bach, still with a reputation as a brilliant keyboard improviser, travelled to Potsdam at the request of King Frederick the Great of Prussia. He arrived in the evening just as the king (a talented flautist) was beginning his regular concert with his court musicians, among whom was Bach's second son Carl Philipp Emanuel. The older Bach requested a theme from the king on which he improvised a three-part fugue, later improvising a six-part fugue on a theme of his own devising. Back in Leipzig the king's theme was written up and extended into a work containing a three – and a six-part ricecar for keyboard, and a trio sonata in four movements for flute, violin and continuo, together with ten scholarly canons. The whole thing, lavishly printed, bound and presented to the king as a Musical Offering, can be seen as a sophisticated calling card – Bach flexing his musical and intellectual muscles with, perhaps, half an eye on a possible royal appointment.
[asin]B00005B84O[/asin]
Jordi Savall's highly expressive recording commences with the brief "royal theme" on solo flute - an effective innovation, which has the effect of tuning your ear to the dazzling ingenuity with which Bach develops his material. Arranged so that the four-movement sonata forms the hub of the recital, the recording features two different versions of the mighty six-voice fugue (for solo harpsichord and, right at the end, for chamber ensemble).
But that was only three short years before he passed away at age 65. People at Bach's time had much shorter life expectancy.
Opinions on the 14-CD organ works collection played by Simon Preston?
Funny enough Karl, there is a dedicated Bach organ thread, you want to post there:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=638.1180 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=638.1180)
:)
What, they're too snooty for the Bungalow? ; ) Thanks, Davey!
Oh-My-God!
(http://www.labelflora.net/sites/default/files/imagecache/album_cover_big/1909.jpg)
:o :o :o
Bach, Johann Sebastian - Sei Suonate (BWV 1014-1019, 1021)
François Fernandez, violon
Benjamin Alard, clavecin
Philippe Pierlot, bass de viole
Recorded in February 2009 - SKU: FLORA1909
I have also found this new Clavier-Übung II by Benjamin Alard (wrongly tagged as Le Clavier Bien Tempéré /Vol.2 on Amazon.fr):
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517cJNxyScL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Considering that Alard is also an organist, I suppose he will also record the German Organ Mass and the Goldbergs very soon.
:)
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 14, 2011, 09:16:31 AM
Oh-My-God!
(http://www.labelflora.net/sites/default/files/imagecache/album_cover_big/1909.jpg)
:o :o :o
Bach, Johann Sebastian - Sei Suonate (BWV 1014-1019, 1021)
François Fernandez, violon
Benjamin Alard, clavecin
Philippe Pierlot, bass de viole
Recorded in February 2009 - SKU: FLORA1909
I beg of you - not so fast! :D Fernandez' solo partitas & sonatas are still on my wishlist! :o
Were do you the stuff BTW, jpc? :) It's a pretty expensive little label. ::)
Q
Quote from: ~ Que ~ on May 14, 2011, 09:42:10 AM
I beg of you - not so fast! :D Fernandez' solo partitas & sonatas are still on my wishlist! :o
Were do you the stuff BTW, jpc? :) It's a pretty expensive little label. ::)
Q
But not as expensive as those specially pressed Esoteric SACD's, made in Japan and licensed from DG. One fellow member of another forum of which I am also a member routinely drop $50 per disc. But he also has a $20K amplifier ...
Quote from: ~ Que ~ on May 14, 2011, 09:42:10 AM
I beg of you - not so fast! :D Fernandez' solo partitas & sonatas are still on my wishlist! :o
Were do you the stuff BTW, jpc? :) It's a pretty expensive little label. ::)
Q
It's curious, this was my mental process:
1.- This Saturday morning it would be nice to listen to some of those
Sonatas & Partitas by Fernandez.
2.- Oh, what beautiful performance!
3.- This guy comes from the same family as Leonhardt, Sigiswald, Pierlot, Foccroulle, Terakado... and (it was the last name in which I thought at that moment), Alard; yes, the young Alard (especially when he plays those beautiful organ trio sonatas recorded on Alpha).
4.- Then I thought: Will still be Flora Records in operations?
http://www.labelflora.net/
8)
Quote from: James on May 14, 2011, 10:19:40 AM
HARPSICHORD CONCERTOS
Most of Bach's concertos for one, two, three or four harpsichords started life in another form, usually as concertos for different instruments and in one case, the Concerto for Four Harpsichords, as a concerto by Vivaldi. In the process of taking music for a single-line instrument or instruments and transcribing it for the harpsichord - which can play polyphonically - Bach often completely changed the character of the pieces, making the textures denser and the elaboration of thematic ideas more complicated. Several of these harpsichord concertos were written for the Collegium Musicum of Leipzig, and would have been performed with Bach himself at the keyboard.
[asin]B00006IQFL[/asin]
In Trevor Pinnock's complete recording of the harpsichord concertos, dating from the early 1980s, the playing is very focused and forward-moving, with tempi sometimes extremely fast. With excellent co-soloists in the concertos for multiple harpsichord, and bright, vivid sound, this budget reissue represents excellent value.
I have a few versions of the Bach Concertos for 3 and 4 Harpsichords. I also have a version by the AAM with Hogwood, a version by Helmut Rilling and his Bach-Collegium Stuttgart and a few other versions along with this version by Pinnock. The following set is the latest version I purchased a few weeks ago ...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2Bpb12InsL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 14, 2011, 10:03:58 AM
4.- Then I thought: Will still be Flora Records in operations?
http://www.labelflora.net/
Their site actually improved a
lot, but what terrible prices... ::) :)
Q
Any idea about Barbara Klinkhammer's WTC?
(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Klinkhammer-K02a%5BAgenda-2CD%5D.jpg)
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-Das-Wohltemperierte-Klavier-1/hnum/7345332
(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Klinkhammer-K03%5BDohr%5D.jpg)
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-Das-Wohltemperierte-Klavier-2/hnum/8075879
I was listening to some excerpts on JPC and it sounds very promising in these ears... As usual, both volumes were realeased on two small and almost unfindable labels.
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 17, 2011, 05:16:17 AM
Any idea about Barbara Klinkhammer's WTC?
Do not know them, but they look mandatory. I have ordered them to day, so within a couple of weeks I may be able to answer.
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 25, 2011, 03:08:04 PM
Do not know them, but they look mandatory. I have ordered them to day, so within a couple of weeks I may be able to answer.
Excellent! I have even tought to pay the EUR 28 of shipping costs just to get those two volumes. I don't know if you noticed a previous post of mine about a new recording of the violin & harpsichord sonatas, recorded on Flora, with Fernandez, Alard and Pierlot. I can't imagine a bad recording from that team. :)
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 25, 2011, 04:25:58 PM
I don't know if you noticed a previous post of mine about a new recording of the violin & harpsichord sonatas, recorded on Flora, with Fernandez, Alard and Pierlot. I can't imagine a bad recording from that team. :)
I certainly did. An even more mandatory set.
Just dropping by to let you guys know that Clavier-Ubung III (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clavier-%C3%9Cbung_III) is the 74th-longest article on Wikipedia (http://www.buzzfeed.com/fjelstud/the-100-longest-entries-on-wikipedia)!
Quote from: James on July 16, 2011, 03:50:11 AM
As with all his Bach performances, Glenn Gould doesn't touch the pedal, preferring to emphasize line above tone. Often hailed as one of the greatest piano recordings ever, this is an extraordinary set, with some fugues played so slowly they almost fall apart and others taken at a speed your ears can only just keep up.
Are you re-posting Amazon descriptions or what exactly is going on here? ???
Tonight I was listening to the Second Part of the Mätthaus-Passion (John Butt/ Dunedin Consort & Players, Linn Records). I have recalled this old question: Has somebody an interpretation of the aria for bass Gebt mir mainen Jesum wieder?
I mean this aria has an "air" totally different to the previous and subsequent numbers. It's a wonderful aria, with an amazing violin solo, but its character it's difficult to understand. Judas has understood the magnitude of his betrayal and has tried to give back the silver pieces to the priests, who have rejected them. Then Judas departs and hangs himself. Then comes this aria, full of some exalted proud and even a sort of joy. I love this piece, but I don't really get to understand its character. Has somebody a plausible explanation? Maybe the soul singing its triumph over material things and money?
Here two versions of this aria:
http://www.youtube.com/v/jwZc5X1xhhA
(I have put this video because I consider interesting the violin playing, although it's a bit disturbing that the violinist and Mertens don't seem quite on the same page)
http://www.youtube.com/v/TSc297fHSK0
Quote from: toñito on July 23, 2011, 09:31:05 PM
Tonight I was listening to the Second Part of the Mätthaus-Passion (John Butt/ Dunedin Consort & Players, Linn Records). I have recalled this old question: Has somebody an interpretation of the aria for bass Gebt mir mainen Jesum wieder?
I mean this aria has an "air" totally different to the previous and subsequent numbers. It's a wonderful aria, with an amazing violin solo, but its character it's difficult to understand. Judas has understood the magnitude of his betrayal and has tried to give back the silver pieces to the priests, who have rejected them. Then Judas departs and hangs himself. Then comes this aria, full of some exalted proud and even a sort of joy. I love this piece, but I don't really get to understand its character. Has somebody a plausible explanation? Maybe the soul singing its triumph over material things and money?
I never heard exalted proud nor joy in this aria, but on the contrary rage and to some extent dispair. The aria represents the believing souls comment, and expresses his/her rage over Judas´betrayal of Jesus and the wish that Jesus should be set free again. Accordingly I find the Dunrdin interpretation a bit tame and the Koopman interpretation more appropiate.
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 24, 2011, 12:15:56 AM
I never heard exalted proud nor joy in this aria, but on the contrary rage and to some extent dispair. The aria represents the believing souls comment, and expresses his/her rage over Judas´betrayal of Jesus and the wish that Jesus should be set free again. Accordingly I find the Dunrdin interpretation a bit tame and the Koopman interpretation more appropiate.
Well my point is that I don't listen to rage or desperation in the music. The text obviously expresses a request: Jesus must be given back, as the silver pieces were given back to the priests (I see a symmetry there). But more than anything, I hear a proud and secure order; not anguish at all. I agree with you: The Dunedin is not very successful here, especially because the violin is not expressive enough.
Quote from: toñito on July 24, 2011, 05:24:13 AM
Well my point is that I don't listen to rage or desperation in the music. The text obviously expresses a request: Jesus must be given back, as the silver pieces were given back to the priests (I see a symmetry there). But more than anything, I hear a proud and secure order; not anguish at all. I agree with you: The Dunedin is not very successful here, especially because the violin is not expressive enough.
Mmm. Intersting how we hear the music differently. But in these ears Koopman´s violin soloist exactly expresses the rage, whereas Butt´s violinist expresses neither nor.
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 24, 2011, 12:15:56 AM
I never heard exalted proud nor joy in this aria, but on the contrary rage and to some extent dispair. The aria represents the believing souls comment, and expresses his/her rage over Judas´betrayal of Jesus and the wish that Jesus should be set free again. Accordingly I find the Dunrdin interpretation a bit tame and the Koopman interpretation more appropiate.
The rage of helplessness is what I hear, if anything. Neither pride nor joy.
I've been thinking of Gidon Kremer's survey of the solo Partitas & Suites (and likely will fetch it in at some point). Found a DVD, Back to Bach, with performances of the Partitas and an hourlong documentary, at the soon-to-be-shuttered Borders.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 28, 2011, 06:15:05 AM
I've been thinking of Gidon Kremer's survey of the solo Partitas & Suites (and likely will fetch it in at some point). Found a DVD, Back to Bach, with performances of the Partitas and an hourlong documentary, at the soon-to-be-shuttered Borders.
GK's partitas and sonatas are very good to my ears.
Quote from: toñito on July 23, 2011, 09:31:05 PM
Tonight I was listening to the Second Part of the Mätthaus-Passion (John Butt/ Dunedin Consort & Players, Linn Records). I have recalled this old question: Has somebody an interpretation of the aria for bass Gebt mir mainen Jesum wieder?
I mean this aria has an "air" totally different to the previous and subsequent numbers. It's a wonderful aria, with an amazing violin solo, but its character it's difficult to understand. Judas has understood the magnitude of his betrayal and has tried to give back the silver pieces to the priests, who have rejected them. Then Judas departs and hangs himself. Then comes this aria, full of some exalted proud and even a sort of joy. I love this piece, but I don't really get to understand its character. Has somebody a plausible explanation? Maybe the soul singing its triumph over material things and money?
Interesting topic. Overall, I've felt for a long time that some of Bach's instrumental music doesn't exactly line up with the text, that the music is much less negative in mood than the text. That's how I feel about the referenced bass aria. Although the text is certainly in the rage and despair mode, I don't hear music that expresses those emotions. Yes, the singer can inject a degree of despair through his vocal expressions, but I find the general musical mood to have an heroic character.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 28, 2011, 06:15:05 AM
I've been thinking of Gidon Kremer's survey of the solo Partitas & Suites (and likely will fetch it in at some point). Found a DVD, Back to Bach, with performances of the Partitas and an hourlong documentary, at the soon-to-be-shuttered Borders.
Kremer is very good, but I'd suggest Viktoria Mullova's 2009 Onyx recording if you haven't heard it - the gut stringed Guadagnini sounds great
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_n323CH618
Interesting stuff, thanks
Quote from: Bulldog on July 28, 2011, 07:06:10 AM
Interesting topic. Overall, I've felt for a long time that some of Bach's instrumental music doesn't exactly line up with the text, that the music is much less negative in mood than the text. That's how I feel about the referenced bass aria. Although the text is certainly in the rage and despair mode, I don't hear music that expresses those emotions. Yes, the singer can inject a degree of despair through his vocal expressions, but I find the general musical mood to have an heroic character.
Well, I guess that the singer is impersonating Judas and his thoughts. To me, the solo violin is kinda Augenmusik
for and also sounding like a soul
in despair, who doesn't know which way to go.
I hear rage in it, too, probably because Judas is bitterly infuriated about his wrong decision to betray his friend and master. He's singing this after his suicide, he's dead now .... which really makes him a 'lost son'.
I don't hear a so-called 'positive' mood in this music. I think it's just because much baroque music is written in dance-style that nowadays people think many pieces are sounding like 'good fun'. But for the churchgoers in Bach's time things were probably easier to understand.
Quote from: toñito on July 23, 2011, 09:31:05 PM
[Koopman, Mertens et al]
(I have put this video because I consider interesting the violin playing, although it's a bit disturbing that the violinist and Mertens don't seem quite on the same page)
I don't hear the 'bit disturbing' problems, to be honest, not even with the score at hand. I think it's a great interpretation.
The Butt performance is interpeting this aria as a piece of sadness and regrets. It's a valuable choice, but I personally prefer the despair and rage combination, as I argued before.
Quote from: Marc on July 31, 2011, 12:38:32 PM
Well, I guess that the singer is impersonating Judas and his thoughts. To me, the solo violin is kinda Augenmusik for and also sounding like a soul in despair, who doesn't know which way to go.
I hear rage in it, too, probably because Judas is bitterly infuriated about his wrong decision to betray his friend and master. He's singing this after his suicide, he's dead now .... which really makes him a 'lost son'.
I don't hear a so-called 'positive' mood in this music. I think it's just because much baroque music is written in dance-style that nowadays people think many pieces are sounding like 'good fun'. But for the churchgoers in Bach's time things were probably easier to understand.
I disagree, Marc.
It's clear for me that the "speaker" of this bass aria is not Judas, as you think. As you have recalled, the Evangelist says in the previous number: "And he threw the silver pieces into the temple/ Departed,
went away and hanged himself". The Evangelist naturally speaks about Judas in third person and it would be absurd if Judas appeared, when he was died, as a sort of voice from the beyond.
IMO, the imperious bass voice -- I liked the adjective "heroic" used by Don -- represents
the faithful believer, who demands the freedom of Jesus with music of decided and demanding character. I don't really hear "desperation" here, just the imperious order from who knows the Judah's prophecies fulfilled by the betrayal of "the lost son" (Judas).
As I don't read German, it has been useful for me (and I suppose for the ocassional reader of this thread) to read the English text of this aria:
Quote42. Aria [Bass]
Violino solo, Violino I/II, Viola, Continuo
Gebt mir meinen Jesum wieder!
Give me back my Jesus!
Seht, das Geld, den Mörderlohn,
See, the money, the wages of murder,
Wirft euch der verlorne Sohn
Is thrown by the lost son
Zu den Füßen nieder!
Down at your feet!
And this is the previous recitative:
Quote41c. Recitative [Tenor, Bass I, Bass II]
Continuo Evangelist (T), Hohepriester (B.I B.II)
Evangelist:
Und er warf die Silberlinge in den Tempel,
And he threw the silver pieces into the temple
hub sich davon, ging hin und erhängete sich selbst.
Departed, went away and hanged himself.
Aber die Hohenpriester nahmen die Silberlinge und sprachen:
But the chief priests took the silver pieces and said:
Hohepriester:
Es taugt nicht, dass wir sie in den Gotteskasten legen, denn es ist Blutgeld.
It is not proper to put the money in the holy Treasury, since it is blood money.
I don't pretend to present any argument of authority, but people as Albert Schweitzer (I'm reading his book on Bach, recommended by Premont), also sees an intriguing character in this bass aria:
QuoteOne would have thought that the most pressing duty of aesthetics was to study these latest discoveries, searching in them for light on the basic problem of all music, — the question of the nature of thematic invention. The attraction was truly great enough, for one had only to read through five or six volumes of tjie cantatas to be struck, more than happens in the case of any other music, by certain recurring singularities, inner affinities, variants of the same theme, and some inexplicable bizarreries. What an enigma is offered us by the themes of the St. Matthew Passion alone! Think of the joyous writing in Judah's air of contrition, "Gebt mir meinen Jesum wieder", ("Give me my dear Lord beloved"); of the wild two-part flute accompaniment in the bass arioso "Ja freilich will in uns das Fleisch und Blut zum Kreuz gezwungen sein", ("Aye, surely now can flesh and blood atone"); of the shapelessness — so senseless from the musical point of view — of the theme of the aria "Konnen Tranen meiner Wangen nichts erlangen", ("Though in vain be all my wailing"); of the remarkable affinity between certain ariosos and the arias that follow them, — in short, of all the things that surprise the musician the more he studies the work, that become, to his sorrow, more and more inexplicable to him, and which he does not know how to perform, for the meaning of them is unknown to him, until he guesses that this music is not self-existent, but has sprung from some strong external force, that will not obey the laws of harmonious thematic structure.
This issue also was discussed in the Bach-cantatas site and different people also gets a perception of pride and even a sort of strange joy (heroic character?) from this aria: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/VD/BWV244-Part6.htm
So I think this aria presents, at least, some oddity in its composition.
Quote from: Marc on July 31, 2011, 12:45:50 PM
I don't hear the 'bit disturbing' problems, to be honest, not even with the score at hand. I think it's a great interpretation.
The Butt performance is interpeting this aria as a piece of sadness and regrets. It's a valuable choice, but I personally prefer the despair and rage combination, as I argued before.
Quote from: Bulldog on July 28, 2011, 07:06:10 AM
Interesting topic. Overall, I've felt for a long time that some of Bach's instrumental music doesn't exactly line up with the text, that the music is much less negative in mood than the text. That's how I feel about the referenced bass aria. Although the text is certainly in the rage and despair mode, I don't hear music that expresses those emotions. Yes, the singer can inject a degree of despair through his vocal expressions, but I find the general musical mood to have an heroic character.
Well, I also like Koopman's interpretation, that's the reason why I posted that video.
But I feel some lack of adjustment between the attitude and words of Mertens and the playing of the violinist. And for that reason I have also quoted here the message written by Don. Because probably that lack of adjustment comes from the score itself and Koopman represents exactly the music, without to pretend -- as Butt, for instance -- to make uniform singing and music into a general mood of sadness and regrets.
Quote from: toñito on July 31, 2011, 01:38:53 PM
I disagree, Marc.
It's clear for me that the "speaker" of this bass aria is not Judas, as you think. As you have recalled, the Evangelist says in the previous number: "And he threw the silver pieces into the temple/ Departed, went away and hanged himself". The Evangelist naturally speaks about Judas in third person and it would be absurd if Judas appeared, when he was died, as a sort of voice from the beyond.
IMO, the imperious bass voice -- I liked the adjective "heroic" used by Don -- represents the faithful believer, who demands the freedom of Jesus with music of decided and demanding character. I don't really hear "desperation" here, just the imperious order from who knows the Judah's prophecies fulfilled by the betrayal of "the lost son" (Judas).
I understand. And I'm convinced it's a totally valid interpretation.
About my own thoughts: maybe 'impersonating' isn't the right word. I didn't mean the singer was literally Judas, but trying, as the singer in f.i. 'Erbarme dich' with Petrus, to identify with his feelings. Hoping (
wishfull thinking by a soul in agony) that returning the money and taking his own sinner's life could probably enlarge the chance of a reconciliation between Jesus (the 'Leader of the Pack') and his pupil (Judas, the 'Lost Son'). Like the reconciliation between the father and his son in the parable of the lost son.
Quote from: toñito on July 31, 2011, 01:38:53 PM
[....]
I don't pretend to present any argument of authority, but people as Albert Schweitzer (I'm reading his book on Bach, recommended by Premont), also sees an intriguing character in this bass aria.
[....]
This issue also was discussed in the Bach-cantatas site and different people also gets a perception of pride and even a sort of strange joy (heroic character?) from this aria: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/VD/BWV244-Part6.htm
So I think this aria presents, at least, some oddity in its composition.
Maybe not
oddity, but, as you wrote before, an
intriguing character. Which is quite 'normal' with Bach. :)
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/3770000420036.jpg)
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/3770000420043.jpg)
Les Folies Francoises (Patrick Cohen-Akenine, violin & Beatrice Martin, harpsichord)
Label: Fontmorigny
I wonder if somebody knows these Bach's sonatas for violin & harpsichord.
Where should one go for more music like the Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue?* I fell in love with the fantasia the first time I listened to it; and I'm sure the free and improvisatory nature has much to do with it. Apart from Bach's keyboard fantasias and toccatas (and perhaps Buxtehude's), which other composers' works of a similar nature would you recommend?
*A true Bachaholic, of course, knows that all the others are inferior. 0:) ;)
..who starved to death between two piles of hay because he couldn't decide if he wanted to eat from the pile on the right or the pile on the left...
This arrived today
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-zb03mx1L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
and now I'm faced with a serious "problem" (if only all our problems were no more serious than this one!)
Where should I begin listening?
start with CD1 and work through to the end, which means start with the cantatas and work through the other vocal works, then the organ works, and then the instrumental works?
start with the cantatas because they are the category of which I have the most unheard to date?
Or, since I'm not quite in the mood for cantatas at the moment, start with the organ works, the second most underrepresented category in my collection?
Or start with the instrumental stuff because they're what I know best and then go back to the cantatas and organ works?
Or are there any individual performances I might want to listen to before anything else?
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 29, 2011, 02:00:00 PM
..who starved to death between two piles of hay because he couldn't decide if he wanted to eat from the pile on the right or the pile on the left...
This arrived today
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-zb03mx1L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
and now I'm faced with a serious "problem" (if only all our problems were no more serious than this one!)
Where should I begin listening?
start with CD1 and work through to the end, which means start with the cantatas and work through the other vocal works, then the organ works, and then the instrumental works?
start with the cantatas because they are the category of which I have the most unheard to date?
Or, since I'm not quite in the mood for cantatas at the moment, start with the organ works, the second most underrepresented category in my collection?
Or start with the instrumental stuff because they're what I know best and then go back to the cantatas and organ works?
Or are there any individual performances I might want to listen to before anything else?
Sell it as fast as you can - problem solved. 8)
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 29, 2011, 02:00:00 PM
..who starved to death between two piles of hay because he couldn't decide if he wanted to eat from the pile on the right or the pile on the left...
This arrived today
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-zb03mx1L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
and now I'm faced with a serious "problem" (if only all our problems were no more serious than this one!)
Where should I begin listening?
start with CD1 and work through to the end, which means start with the cantatas and work through the other vocal works, then the organ works, and then the instrumental works?
start with the cantatas because they are the category of which I have the most unheard to date?
Or, since I'm not quite in the mood for cantatas at the moment, start with the organ works, the second most underrepresented category in my collection?
Or start with the instrumental stuff because they're what I know best and then go back to the cantatas and organ works?
Or are there any individual performances I might want to listen to before anything else?
Some recommendations to begin: :)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_sDIr0OCHEb8/SpDkDw0A6WI/AAAAAAAAALo/aobTQQPYpyA/s320/Cover.jpg)(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Hanssler-BA099.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CABZQ%2BCnL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41N7NXS3N5L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://www.theclassicalshop.net/HiResArt/smart/HA%202120.jpeg)(http://russiancdshop.com/velke%20rcd/haen092127000.jpg)(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/WTC1-Levin-Robert%5BHanssler%5D.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51N7EQQ5PTL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://www.technodisco.net/img/tracks/j/johann-sebastian-bach/1917007-johann-sebastian-bach-bach-as-teacher---keyboard-works-from-the-cthen-period.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41HsY8D%2BdeL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61tRyi8dXKL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
I recently heard the recordings by Cafe Zimmermann (http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Concerts-avec-plusieurs-instruments/dp/B00005S0MC/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1326117163&sr=1-1) of the orchestral works, Concerts avec plusieurs instruments and was impressed.
Anyone else know them?
:)
Quote from: Arnold on January 09, 2012, 04:55:24 AM
I recently heard the recordings by Cafe Zimmermann (http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Concerts-avec-plusieurs-instruments/dp/B00005S0MC/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1326117163&sr=1-1) of the orchestral works, Concerts avec plusieurs instruments and was impressed.
Anyone else know them?
I do, for instance, and I think they're very good. And my guess is that I'm not the only one.
Here's a thread about Bach's orchestral works btw:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,981.0.html
(http://i.prs.to/t_200/teldec2564664202.jpg)
Well, the picture doesn't say much, but it's the complete Bach Edition from Warner/Teldec/Erato.
I just wish they would release the keyboard works -- those for harpsichord, specifically -- again, since it's much of that set which isn't easily available compared to the organ works, chamber/orchestal music, passions and canatatas.
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Teldec/2564664202
Quote from: Opus106 on January 16, 2012, 01:02:52 AM
(http://i.prs.to/t_200/teldec2564664202.jpg)
Well, the picture doesn't say much, but it's the complete Bach Edition from Warner/Teldec/Erato.
I just wish they would release the keyboard works -- those for harpsichord, specifically -- again, since it's much of that set which isn't easily available compared to the organ works, chamber/orchestal music, passions and canatatas.
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Teldec/2564664202
Excellent news, Nav! Anyway I guess it will be available cheaper because Presto Classical is almost never the best option regarding big boxes. :)
Quote from: Opus106 on January 16, 2012, 01:02:52 AM
(http://i.prs.to/t_200/teldec2564664202.jpg)
Well, the picture doesn't say much, but it's the complete Bach Edition from Warner/Teldec/Erato.
I just wish they would release the keyboard works -- those for harpsichord, specifically -- again, since it's much of that set which isn't easily available compared to the organ works, chamber/orchestal music, passions and canatatas.
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Teldec/2564664202
Looks decidely scary! :o Though if any company, Waner has the best back catalogue for such a project, but from the decription it seems they decided on "mixed" performers for groups of works - I'd hate that...
Q
Quote from: ~ Que ~ on January 16, 2012, 04:43:42 AM
Looks decidely scary! :o Though if any company, Waner has the best back catalogue for such a project, but from the decription it seems they decided on "mixed" performers for groups of works - I'd hate that...
Q
I think it's simply a reissue of the Bach 2000 Edition.
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 16, 2012, 04:49:51 AM
I think it's simply a reissue of the Bach 2000 Edition.
Would seem so. They each have the exact same number of discs.
Color coded by genre, eh? So I should guess the wheat color is the cantatas &c. YMMV, of course, but that's more Bach cantata than I require.
Here's news (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/news.php?date=2012-06-04) of a quasi-dramatised SMP. Has anyone watched it yet? Oh, and if you haven't, Peter Sellars was involved in it.
Quote from: Opus106 on June 04, 2012, 03:32:19 AM
. . . Peter Sellars was involved in it.
Faugh.
There: got it out of my system.
Quote from: karlhenning on June 04, 2012, 04:11:45 AM
Faugh.
There: got it out of my system.
You beat me to it!
;)
(Responding to a conversation in Haydn's Haus that can be traced back starting here:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg692832.html#msg692832)
Quote from: karlhenning on January 30, 2013, 09:07:00 AM
And how do we know that this is specifically what he meant by the solo harpsichord?
I've always thought that he specifically meant "My music and my harpsichord playing will equally knock your socks off!"*
There is an argument that Musical Offering has a sort of philosophical intention behind it, meaning a defense of "old school" against the up and coming galantaries of the mid 18th century, but even that had a specificallyl musical context to it. Beyond that, I've never seen anything to indicate that his non-choral works had any meaning behind them in the way that Mandryka proposes. He may have supported social equality but that does mean he was determined to illustrate it through his instrumental compositions.
The article Sanantonio provided is informative, though I'm not really convinced by it; but it does seem to disagree with Mandryka's reading, which in itself is a strong data point for this discussion.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 30, 2013, 09:39:06 AM
The article Sanantonio provided is informative, though I'm not really convinced by it [....]
Most informative . . . at the outset, he owns that it is purely speculative, which does not diminish the interest (nor the epochal resonance). Still, not firmly applicable to the piece. And, as you say, the Baroque practice of allegorical reflection is entirely different to the Romantic Expression of the Individual.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 30, 2013, 09:39:06 AM
(Responding to a conversation in Haydn's Haus that can be traced back starting here:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg692832.html#msg692832)
I've always thought that he specifically meant "My music and my harpsichord playing will equally knock your socks off!"*
There is an argument that Musical Offering has a sort of philosophical intention behind it, meaning a defense of "old school" against the up and coming galantaries of the mid 18th century, but even that had a specificallyl musical context to it. Beyond that, I've never seen anything to indicate that his non-choral works had any meaning behind them in the way that Mandryka proposes. He may have supported social equality but that does mean he was determined to illustrate it through his instrumental compositions.
The article Sanantonio provided is informative, though I'm not really convinced by it; but it does seem to disagree with Mandryka's reading, which in itself is a strong data point for this discussion.
Agreed, but what about the
Ciaccona?
Quote from: North Star on January 30, 2013, 10:11:33 AM
Agreed, but what about the Ciaccona?
What about it? The Romantics certainly saw something in it and went on a transcription spree, to the point of almost forgetting the rest of the partita, but do you think Bach really had a message attached to it?
There's been one retrofitted, but I remain rather leery (even while I genuinely enjoy the Morimur project by the Hilliards and Ch. Poppen).
Quote from: karlhenning on January 30, 2013, 10:28:55 AM
There's been one retrofitted, but I remain rather leery (even while I genuinely enjoy the Morimur project by the Hilliards and Ch. Poppen).
Thanks for the ref. Will have to bookmark it.
It's a lovely recording; and I was able to hear them perform it live here in Boston (in the Cathedral Church of St Paul). Brilliant music-making, but (as I say) not sure I buy into the gloss.
Quote from: Opus106 on January 30, 2013, 10:25:12 AM
What about it? The Romantics certainly saw something in it and went on a transcription spree, to the point of almost forgetting the rest of the partita, but do you think Bach really had a message attached to it?
I have seen an argument that the Sonatas and Partitas for Solo Violin are essentially a memorial for JSB's first wife--in the liner notes to one or another of the recordings I have of these works (Perlman's I think, but I don't feel like hunting up the reference when I should be already virtously in bed)--and that the Chaconne's placement has important symbolic meaning. It also pointed out that the short title Bach himself gave to the set--Sei Solo--could mean both "Six solo [works]" and "I am alone". But the argument relies on numerological symbolism of the type Bach is known to have inserted into his works, and not on any "message" inherent in the notes themselves. The adepts of musical symbology could see Bach's intent; the rest of the world would simply hear jaw droppingly good music.
And the fact that they are jaw droppingly good music will probably always be more important than figuring out whatever "meaning" Bach may have meant to convey with them.
Thank you, Jeffrey. I will certainly look into this aspect of Bach's music further.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5qNdvoe4EdM/T385kcE3K6I/AAAAAAAAB6E/nR1C_9bD0sI/s1600/DIP-YOUR-EARS.png)
Dip Your Ears, No. 130 (Bach, Fresh Squeezed)
The accordion has a reputation problem in the US, where its esteem ranks somewhere between recorder and kazoo...
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/03/dip-your-ears-no-130-bach-fresh-squeezed.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/03/dip-your-ears-no-130-bach-fresh-squeezed.html)
Quote from: jlaurson on March 23, 2013, 09:28:07 AM
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5qNdvoe4EdM/T385kcE3K6I/AAAAAAAAB6E/nR1C_9bD0sI/s1600/DIP-YOUR-EARS.png)
Dip Your Ears, No. 130 (Bach, Fresh Squeezed)
The accordion has a reputation problem in the US, where its esteem ranks somewhere between recorder and kazoo...
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/03/dip-your-ears-no-130-bach-fresh-squeezed.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/03/dip-your-ears-no-130-bach-fresh-squeezed.html)
Bach works very well on this instrument IMHO.
Here's another example:
(http://i47.tinypic.com/104rnmc.jpg)
http://www.gramophone.co.uk/blog/web-exclusive-reviews/a-deeply-moving-goldberg-variations-%E2%80%93%C2%A0on-accordian
http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Teodoro-Anzellotti-accordion/dp/B003LQVM5C/
Quote from: Marc on March 24, 2013, 12:46:08 AM
Bach works very well on this instrument IMHO.
Here's another example:
(http://i47.tinypic.com/104rnmc.jpg)
http://www.gramophone.co.uk/blog/web-exclusive-reviews/a-deeply-moving-goldberg-variations-%E2%80%93%C2%A0on-accordian
http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Teodoro-Anzellotti-accordion/dp/B003LQVM5C/
Ancellotti is excellent. Did a Goldberg Variations - on - the - accordion comparison not long ago, and while all were good, he came out (however marginally) on top.
...Christoph Biller, the 16th Thomanercantor since Bach, says that God can't be known (hence faith), but he can be felt—in Bach. Bach—and I agree wholehearted, although "without invisible means of support" myself—is next to Godliness. Part of what makes Bach stand apart is that deep, quasi-spiritual sense one gets from his music... a feeling Romain Rolland might have described as "oceanic": A sense of rightness, universal like a mathematical proof...
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uqyYjeXy_8o/UNlfq2leIiI/AAAAAAAAFB8/L6ShBiPlP9U/s1600/Bach_Stamps_Briefmarken_laurson_600.jpg)
Bach is Next to Godliness, the Flute Not
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/04/bach-is-next-to-godliness-flute-not_8.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/04/bach-is-next-to-godliness-flute-not_8.html)
Quote from: jlaurson on April 08, 2013, 07:46:04 AM
...Christoph Biller, the 16th Thomanercantor since Bach, says that God can't be known (hence faith), but he can be felt—in Bach. Bach—and I agree wholehearted, although "without invisible means of support" myself—is next to Godliness. Part of what makes Bach stand apart is that deep, quasi-spiritual sense one gets from his music... a feeling Romain Rolland might have described as "oceanic": A sense of rightness, universal like a mathematical proof...
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uqyYjeXy_8o/UNlfq2leIiI/AAAAAAAAFB8/L6ShBiPlP9U/s1600/Bach_Stamps_Briefmarken_laurson_600.jpg)
Bach is Next to Godliness, the Flute Not
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/04/bach-is-next-to-godliness-flute-not_8.html (//http://)
I'm curious, Jens. Your displeasure is limited to Bach's recorder/flute sonatas or more generally to all his music for these intruments (I mean, for instance, the sonatina of the Actus Tragicus and many other cantata/instrumental parts). More generally: Do you enjoy other works (by other composers) using these instruments? I ask in good faith as a close friend of mine - a very intelligent listener, indeed - really hates the music for flute and recorder as a whole. :)
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on April 08, 2013, 08:00:08 AM
I'm curious, Jens. Your displeasure is limited to Bach's recorder/flute sonatas or more generally to all his music for these intruments (I mean, for instance, the sonatina of the Actus Tragicus and many other cantata/instrumental parts). More generally: Do you enjoy other works (by other composers) using these instruments? I ask in good faith as a close friend of mine - a very intelligent listener, indeed - really hates the music for flute and recorder as a whole. :)
1.) I prefer the recorder over the flute, usually. By a lot... and I'm not sure if it necessarily relates to having played various recorders, but never the flute.
2.) With Bach, at least, the displeasure is limited to the sonatas... and decided NOT where it is part of a greater thing with the occasional melodic solo.
3.) It really grates on me with other composers, too. Not necessarily, but definitely above average.
4.) It's an instrument that I find very easily boring... and I can't stand boring music. An OK-performed Mozart flute concerto is a nightmare (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/04/ionarts-at-large-paavo-jarvi-excites.html). A really well performed Mozart flute concerto (if the orchestra pulls in the same direction) can be a delight. And I can definitely love flutists as musicians... http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/09/music-rules-not-from.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/09/music-rules-not-from.html)
So... I suppose it's a mix of the particular and the general. And I'm not sure if you read the piece in question, beyond the headline... but it ends up being a recommendation of Bach Flute Sonatas, after all.
Quote from: jlaurson on April 08, 2013, 08:22:25 AM
1.) I prefer the recorder over the flute, usually. By a lot... and I'm not sure if it necessarily relates to having played various recorders, but never the flute.
2.) With Bach, at least, the displeasure is limited to the sonatas... and decided NOT where it is part of a greater thing with the occasional melodic solo.
3.) It really grates on me with other composers, too. Not necessarily, but definitely above average.
4.) It's an instrument that I find very easily boring... and I can't stand boring music. An OK-performed Mozart flute concerto is a nightmare (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/04/ionarts-at-large-paavo-jarvi-excites.html). A really well performed Mozart flute concerto (if the orchestra pulls in the same direction) can be a delight. And I can definitely love flutists as musicians... http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/09/music-rules-not-from.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/09/music-rules-not-from.html)
So... I suppose it's a mix of the particular and the general. And I'm not sure if you read the piece in question, beyond the headline... but it ends up being a recommendation of Bach Flute Sonatas, after all.
I'm the opposite: I tend to not like the recorder but am usually okay with the flute. However, it's too easy to have a "prettified" sound in these two instruments--and that applies to Mozart and Vivaldi and most other composers, with the result that I don't often put Bach's flute works on my player. I did like the Pahud/Pinnock collaboration for the flute sonatas, and the Bruggen recording that is part of the Teldec box.
Side not to Jens: the Ionarts link in your 10:46 post is a bad link.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 08, 2013, 09:03:18 AM
Side note to Jens: the Ionarts link in your 10:46 post is a bad link.
Ah! Thanks - fixed.
Quote from: jlaurson on April 08, 2013, 07:46:04 AM
...Christoph Biller, the 16th Thomanercantor since Bach, says that God can't be known (hence faith), but he can be felt—in Bach. Bach—and I agree wholehearted, although "without invisible means of support" myself—is next to Godliness. Part of what makes Bach stand apart is that deep, quasi-spiritual sense one gets from his music... a feeling Romain Rolland might have described as "oceanic": A sense of rightness, universal like a mathematical proof...
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uqyYjeXy_8o/UNlfq2leIiI/AAAAAAAAFB8/L6ShBiPlP9U/s1600/Bach_Stamps_Briefmarken_laurson_600.jpg)
Bach is Next to Godliness, the Flute Not
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/04/bach-is-next-to-godliness-flute-not_8.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/04/bach-is-next-to-godliness-flute-not_8.html)
Quote from: jlaurson on April 08, 2013, 08:22:25 AM
1.) I prefer the recorder over the flute, usually. By a lot... and I'm not sure if it necessarily relates to having played various recorders, but never the flute.
2.) With Bach, at least, the displeasure is limited to the sonatas... and decided NOT where it is part of a greater thing with the occasional melodic solo.
3.) It really grates on me with other composers, too. Not necessarily, but definitely above average.
4.) It's an instrument that I find very easily boring... and I can't stand boring music. An OK-performed Mozart flute concerto is a nightmare (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/04/ionarts-at-large-paavo-jarvi-excites.html). A really well performed Mozart flute concerto (if the orchestra pulls in the same direction) can be a delight. And I can definitely love flutists as musicians... http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/09/music-rules-not-from.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/09/music-rules-not-from.html)
So... I suppose it's a mix of the particular and the general. And I'm not sure if you read the piece in question, beyond the headline... but it ends up being a recommendation of Bach Flute Sonatas, after all.
Thanks for your detailed response, Jens. I also prefer the recorder to the flute. Its sweetness and freshness are incomparable.
Of course, I did read completly your article. :)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5qNdvoe4EdM/T385kcE3K6I/AAAAAAAAB6E/nR1C_9bD0sI/s1600/DIP-YOUR-EARS.png)
Dip Your Ears, No. 133 (Bach Motets)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/04/dip-your-ears-no-133-bach-motets.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/04/dip-your-ears-no-133-bach-motets.html)
According to Gardiner, the Motets are "the cantor's 'most perfect... most hypnotic... works'. Certainly perfect for a Sunday. (With audio samples from all six, by different performers.)
Quote from: jlaurson on April 14, 2013, 05:53:31 AM
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5qNdvoe4EdM/T385kcE3K6I/AAAAAAAAB6E/nR1C_9bD0sI/s1600/DIP-YOUR-EARS.png)
Dip Your Ears, No. 133 (Bach Motets)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/04/dip-your-ears-no-133-bach-motets.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/04/dip-your-ears-no-133-bach-motets.html)
According to Gardiner, the Motets are "the cantor's 'most perfect... most hypnotic... works'. Certainly perfect for a Sunday. (With audio samples from all six, by different performers.)
By coincidence just last night I listened to three different versions of the motets: Harnoncourt, Fasolis and Kooij, being Kooij and his ensemble Sette Voci my favorite. It will be great to know your opinion on Gardiner's new attempt on these works.
P.S.: I did read your note, I thought you had done a more comprehensive review as usual. Anyway, it was fine. :)
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on April 14, 2013, 06:42:39 AM
By coincidence just last night I listened to three different versions of the motets: Harnoncourt, Fasolis and Kooij, being Kooij and his ensemble Sette Voci my favorite. It will be great to know your opinion on Gardiner's new attempt on these works.
P.S.: I did read your note, I thought you had done a more comprehensive review as usual. Anyway, it was fine. :)
Yeah, I kept it a bit shallow there. True. (In my halfhearted defense, a more elaborate review had already appeared on the site, written by CDT). To now add to the shallowness: I think Gardiner is good with a touch of bland... and hasn't the razor-precision that I look for, when I hear minimal-accompaniment versions of the Motets. They're engaging but could benefit from more zip. Zip, I think it a technical term, and was specifically requested by Bach in "Höchstnöthiger Entwurff für eine wohlbestallte Motettenaufführung nebst einigem unvorgreiflichen Bedencken von dem Verfall der vorort präsenten Zippigkeit". Ueber-zipmeister Suzuki, in contrast, has all the spunk, but not the
innigkeit I am looking for...
Hmm... I have my fair share of Motet recordings, but none of those three, drats. Well, that will have to be rectified, before long, I'm afraid.
Quote from: jlaurson on April 14, 2013, 07:27:37 AM
Yeah, I kept it a bit shallow there. True. (In my halfhearted defense, a more elaborate review had already appeared on the site, written by CDT). To now add to the shallowness: I think Gardiner is good with a touch of bland... and hasn't the razor-precision that I look for, when I hear minimal-accompaniment versions of the Motets. They're engaging but could benefit from more zip. Zip, I think it a technical term, and was specifically requested by Bach in "Höchstnöthiger Entwurff für eine wohlbestallte Motettenaufführung nebst einigem unvorgreiflichen Bedencken von dem Verfall der vorort präsenten Zippigkeit". Ueber-zipmeister Suzuki, in contrast, has all the spunk, but not the innigkeit I am looking for...
Hmm... I have my fair share of Motet recordings, but none of those three, drats. Well, that will have to be rectified, before long, I'm afraid.
Chaconne a son gout, as I like to say.
I found Gardiner to have all necessary Zippigkeit, and Suzuki to have too much: sehr Zippig, as it were.
But I agree that Suzuki did not have the Innigkeit: I do think Gardiner does.
I would suggest to listen to these samples:
http://www.ramee.org/0906gb.html#extraits
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on April 14, 2013, 07:54:01 AM
I would suggest to listen to these samples:
http://www.ramee.org/0906gb.html#extraits
I think I have access to the whole thing via Qobuz, actually. Which is like a Spotify for classical, except the highest sound quality on Spotify is half the lowest on Qobuz, and they're properly indexed.
Quote from: jlaurson on April 14, 2013, 07:56:28 AM
I think I have access to the whole thing via Qobuz, actually. Which is like a Spotify for classical, except the highest sound quality on Spotify is half the lowest on Qobuz, and they're properly indexed.
Then you're done because it's nearly a crime to listen to this music at poor bitrate. I think it won't be a waste of time for you. :)
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on April 14, 2013, 08:05:39 AM
Then you're done set because it's nearly a crime to listen to this music at poor bitrate. I think it won't be a waste of time for you. :)
Are you kidding? It needs
much less encouragement to send me squirreling to listen to more Bach motets. Already put it on my playlist.
I just listened to Kooij/sette voce on quobuz's streaming. I thought that it's wonderful, thanks for posting.
Quote from: jlaurson on April 14, 2013, 07:56:28 AM
I think I have access to the whole thing via Qobuz, actually. Which is like a Spotify for classical, except the highest sound quality on Spotify is half the lowest on Qobuz, and they're properly indexed.
Thank you very much for this information,
Jens.
I have visited this site and it looks great.
I'm enjoying the free 15-day trial, but I'm almost sure I will pay their monthly subscription (the basic service has a very good sound quality, indeed). :)
Matthäus-Passion BWV 244
Conductor: Peter Dijkstra
Chor des Bayerischen Rundfunks/Regensburger Domspatzen
Concerto Köln
http://liveweb.arte.tv/fr/video/Passion_St_Matthieu/
Soloists:
- Julian Prégardien (The Evangelist), tenor
- Maximilian Schmitt, tenor
- Karina Gauvin, soprano
- Gerhild Romberger, mezzo-soprano
- Michael Nagy (Arias/Pilatus), baryton :blank:
- Karl-Magnus Fredriksson (Jesus), baryton :blank:
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on April 17, 2013, 08:13:16 AM
- Michael Nagy (Arias/Pilatus), baryton :blank:
- Karl-Magnus Fredriksson (Jesus), baryton :blank:
http://translate.google.com/?#fr/en/baryton :)
Thanks for the link. :)
Quote from: Opus106 on April 17, 2013, 08:40:14 AM
http://translate.google.com/?#fr/en/baryton :)
Thanks for the link. :)
You're welcome, Navneeth.
I am just a bit puzzled because usually Bach's works follow the pattern SATB: soprano; alto (not mezzo-soprano); tenor & bass (not baritone).
Anyway, this video looks quite interesting, so I have planned to watch it this weekend.
:)
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on April 17, 2013, 09:46:52 AM
I am just a bit puzzled because usually Bach's works follow the pattern SATB: soprano; alto (not mezzo-soprano); tenor & bass (not baritone).
Ah, I hadn't noticed that discrepancy.
Quote
Anyway, this video looks quite interesting, so I have planned to watch it this weekend.
:)
There's a lot of video lag using my connection. I must find a work-around.
This is stunning Bach!
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00AWVSEIC.01.L.jpg)
J.S. Bach
Transcriptions
for Piano Quintet, String Trio, Solo Piano, and Viola Sonata
Ensemble Contraste
la dolce volta (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00AWVSEIC/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00AWVSEIC/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00AWVSEIC/goodmusicguideuk-21)
incl. bits from: BWV659, 639, 12, 225, 854, 1079, 826, 244, 508
Amazing-amazingly gorgeous. Best of 2013 ticket booked!!!
I attended an all-Bach concert by Jorg Demus in Kyoto, Japan today. He played the second half of WTC I and the Partita # 6. Not being musically educated, I can't describe it well but I enjoyed it immensely. He did a lot with tempos. I don't know: it seems to be somewhat romantic Bach. But it was very fresh. I was never bored. It was nice to see a master play in a small room. Perhaps there were 60 people there, almost all women - many with the score in hand (there was a lecture before). It doesn't seem like many men take up the piano these days in Japan. I got to take a picture with him afterwards. He's very approachable and kindly.
Quote from: milk on April 21, 2013, 06:15:53 AM
I attended an all-Bach concert by Jorg Demus in Kyoto, Japan today. He played the second half of WTC I and the Partita # 6. Not being musically educated, I can't describe it well but I enjoyed it immensely. He did a lot with tempos. I don't know: it seems to be somewhat romantic Bach. But it was very fresh. I was never bored. It was nice to see a master play in a small room. Perhaps there were 60 people there, almost all women - many with the score in hand (there was a lecture before). It doesn't seem like many men take up the piano these days in Japan. I got to take a picture with him afterwards. He's very approachable and kindly.
Sounds like a beatiful concert to be treasured!
What instrument did he play?
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 21, 2013, 06:19:33 PM
Sounds like a beatiful concert to be treasured!
What instrument did he play?
He played a modern concert grand. I get the feeling that people aren't too aware of period pianos here in Japan. There are harpsichordists of course - I've seen some harpsichord recitals. And Kobe Shoin Women's university has a wonderful copy of a baroque organ - probably due to Masaaki Suzuki's affiliation with that institution. I was told that Demus has been coming to Japan and giving piano workshops for many years. It was a memory to treasure. I wish I had more musical knowledge to characterize what he was doing. He was very flexible with his agogics and dynamics (if I'm using these terms correctly). I think of Bach as building these grand structures of moods. I was surprised at the different kinds of structures Demus created (with different tempos and accents). I was often surprised and delighted. One of his students commented that he has a soft touch. But I didn't think that that was what he was doing at all. I thought he was quite forceful and even fearless. I'm also getting used to the difference between recordings and live performances. I guess a master like Demus is really present at every moment and is able to bring out something new in a performance. The manner of the performance was also interesting. He didn't use a score. Rather, he played three or four preludes and fugues, took applause, and then went to the back and sat down for about 30 seconds. And then came back to proceed with three or four more. He broke this up by playing the partita in the middle before an intermission. All in all, it was an extremely interesting afternoon. I hope to get the chance to see more intimate concerts with masters like him.
Thanks for your account of this concert, milk; I enjoyed reading it. Was the mostly-female audience typical of your concert-going experience in Japan?
You really should use the pic with Demus as your avatar....but only if you guys have arms over each other's shoulders and giving big "thumbs up" to the camera.
Quote from: Octave on April 22, 2013, 12:18:09 AM
Thanks for your account of this concert, milk; I enjoyed reading it. Was the mostly-female audience typical of your concert-going experience in Japan?
You really should use the pic with Demus as your avatar....but only if you guys have arms over each other's shoulders and giving big "thumbs up" to the camera.
Yeah, I couldn't get him to do the thumbs up! Well, I think many of these people were students and I just don't think many young guys in Japan are taking up the piano. I suspect that boys might even be dissuaded from becoming serious about it (maybe more by unspoken peer pressure). It's not a way that most people can make a living and Japanese men don't have much time for hobbies I'm afraid. It's typical for Japanese men to work six or seven days a week and ten or twelve hours a day. At the bigger concerts I've been to, the audience is, perhaps, mostly women or retired people. If there is a Japanese person in the forum, they can comment on the validity of my suppositions. I could be wrong but it's what I've observed.
Word in from Presto Classical that the Bach flash drive has despatched!
Quote from: karlhenning on April 29, 2013, 04:41:11 AM
Word in from Presto Classical that the Bach flash drive has despatched!
Hm, I don't think I've noticed this spelling before, or have thought that it's just a typo.
This set does look excellent, though - although the massiveness might be a bit too much.
Quote
Nikolaus Harnoncourt, Gustav Leonhardt, Concentus Musicus Wien, Il Giardino Armonico, Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra, The Academy of Ancient Music, Christopher Hogwood, Ton Koopman, Scott Ross, Andreas Staier, Kurt Equiluz, Robert Holl, Thomas Zehetmair, Frans Brüggen, and many more ...
Quote from: karlhenning on April 29, 2013, 04:41:11 AM
Word in from Presto Classical that the Bach flash drive has despatched!
Would you mind to provide a link to this release?
Thanks beforehand.
Quote from: North Star on April 29, 2013, 05:39:42 AM
Hm, I don't think I've noticed this spelling before, or have thought that it's just a typo.
This set does look excellent, though - although the massiveness might be a bit too much.
Presto spells it in that way:
Despatch notification
Quote from: (: premont :) on April 29, 2013, 05:51:39 AM
Would you mind to provide a link to this release?
Thanks beforehand.
Courtesy of Nav (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11592.msg704608.html#msg704608).Quote from: (: premont :) on April 29, 2013, 05:55:04 AM
Quote from: North Star on April 29, 2013, 05:39:42 AM
Hm, I don't think I've noticed this spelling before, or have thought that it's just a typo.
Presto spells it in that way:
Despatch notification
Yes, a variant spelling; found myself checking the dictionary, too.
Quote from: karlhenning on April 29, 2013, 06:00:02 AM
Courtesy of Nav (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11592.msg704608.html#msg704608).
Oh, that one. Fortunately I own almost all of the content already. Outstanding value for money.
Aye, I reckoned that even just figuring on fetching in all the Kantaten, it's a bargain.
It would be interesting to know if it includes a scanned copy of the original liner notes. Incredibly the big box doesn't include them.
Quote• Articles: Original articles taken from the historic 'Das Alte Werk' series about Bach's major works, available as PDF files to download
Quote from: karlhenning on April 29, 2013, 06:49:10 AM
These words suggest a "selection" from the original notes, isn't it? Anyway, this can't be worst than the online "booklet" provided for the last incarnation of The Complete Bach Edition:
http://www.warnerclassics.com/sungtexts/0825646642021.pdf
::)
Quote from: North Star on April 29, 2013, 05:39:42 AM
Hm, I don't think I've noticed this spelling before, or have thought that it's just a typo.
This set does look excellent, though - although the massiveness might be a bit too much.
I found it best to treat it as a group of boxsets, and listen a segment at a time--organ works, cantatas, keyboard works, etc. Like all big meals, it's easier to digest if you take your time in eating it. Doing it that way took me about a year and a half, with plenty of breaks for other stuff.
The lack of liner notes was an annoyance ("For sung texts visit the Bach Cantatas website"). The only segment I was not very satisfied with were the Cantatas, and that mostly because of the use of boy sopranos, which my ears generally don't like anyway.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 29, 2013, 07:31:37 AM
The lack of liner notes was an annoyance ("For sung texts visit the Bach Cantatas website"). The only segment I was not very satisfied with were the Cantatas, and that mostly because of the use of boy sopranos, which my ears generally don't like anyway.
Don't blame it on choristers
per se. It's just that they weren't all that good. None were, back in those days... the improvements that have been made are really incredible. (Not just with boys choirs, either, but all choirs.) Was just talking about that a few days ago with the admin of the BR Chorus, who has to delve into the archives a lot, to check what can be OK'ed for release and what not... and a lot of the old stuff, even when the BR Chorus was already top of the line in Germany, usually hasn't got a chance to stand next to modern recordings. Not because of interpretative questions, but simply judged along qualitative lines.
If you hear some of the modern recordings of Bach Cantatas with Thomaner Choristers (under Biller), you'll find that it's a whole different kettle of fish now, and the boys sound good even where they take on solo duties. Amazingly.
Quote from: jlaurson on April 29, 2013, 08:05:08 AM
Don't blame it on choristers per se. It's just that they weren't all that good. None were, back in those days... the improvements that have been made are really incredible. (Not just with boys choirs, either, but all choirs.) Was just talking about that a few days ago with the admin of the BR Chorus, who has to delve into the archives a lot, to check what can be OK'ed for release and what not... and a lot of the old stuff, even when the BR Chorus was already top of the line in Germany, usually hasn't got a chance to stand next to modern recordings. Not because of interpretative questions, but simply judged along qualitative lines.
If you hear some of the modern recordings of Bach Cantatas with Thomaner Choristers (under Biller), you'll find that it's a whole different kettle of fish now, and the boys sound good even where they take on solo duties. Amazingly.
I suppose I need to check those recordings out, but my problem with trebles/boy sopranos/whatever you wish to call them is more general and basic--it's the quality or tone of the juvenile voice that generally puts me off. Of course, there are individual releases where that's not true--I just listened to a recording of Faure's Requiem with a treble that came off very well (Guest/Choir of St. John's College), and I seem to be the only person in the world who thinks that Bernstein recording of the Mahler Fourth with a boy soprano actually worked out well.
It's also true that the further along in listening to the cantatas I got, the less I was bothered by this issue--perhaps my ears were simply adjusting themselves over repeated listening sessions.
ETA: and add to the listen of boy soloists that I liked the performance of the Pergolesi parody which Bach used for the text of Psalm 150 which is included in the Teldec box--Ars Antiqua Austria directed by Gunnar Letzbor
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 29, 2013, 08:12:48 AM
I suppose I need to check those recordings out, but my problem with trebles/boy sopranos/whatever you wish to call them is more general and basic--it's the quality or tone of the juvenile voice that generally puts me off...
Some of it is adjusting... much of it is confidence. I know exactly which quality you are talking about, but it's amazing to hear how that quality vanishes with a supremely confident chorister.
I can't go as far as you, re: Bernstein M4, though. No sireee. I have my limits. :-)
Somewhat related: An essay on the Thomaners (which is why I happen to know their recent recordings so well) upcoming in the next issue of LISTEN Magazine. (Also: I'm not a shill for the Leipzig boys... I was a member of their only serious German rival, when I grew up, and those young biases sit deeply! ;D )
Here's my recently large Bach purchase, spent a few weeks gathering info and samples from several dozen different recordings that interested me. I would be interested to get some feedback, not that I'll be returning the ones that are not approved. :D
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 05, 2013, 03:23:48 AM
I'm now Bached up with music! :laugh:
I chose Belder and Gulda for my new full WTC performances. Haven't heard much from the Belder, but I have some of his other Bach on Brilliant Classics and they are superb. The Gulda might be the best I've heard of the WTC, I'm finding I prefer less pedal used in these pieces. Although the same cannot be said for Art of Fugue. My obsession for this piece(s) continues to increase. I now have string versions along with keyboard, and perhaps it's because I love how the strings sustain the notes that I'm attracted to MacGregor's performance. She offers contemplative readings that are quite lovely. Plus you get the French Suites all at a nice price. These are Bylsma's first recordings of the Cello Suites, a few days ago I purchased his 1992 recording. They are both highly individual and unique. Sample the opening Prelude and you can instantly hear the difference.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513qise0HwL._SY300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Bnk0NMFTL._SY300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CAf0I9M3L._SY300__.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/512mX9eG9UL._SY300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51b62Lmpz9L._SX300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51uBpeyn4VL._SX300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41T0F938BQL._SY300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51TDKQU4XrL._SY300_.jpg)
From a few days ago...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51IQ4-NHJWL._SY300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JcMmJxemL._SX300_.jpg)
MacGregor's recording of the French Suites is my favourite. So smooth and creamy.
I remember being bowled over by Bylsma's 1st recording of the Cello Suites when I heard it on the radio in the mid-'90s** - so light and lively compared with the Tortelier set I was familiar with. Probably my first exposure to the HIP style of performance, a real wake-up. Some time later I bought the CD set assuming I was getting the same thing - but it was Bylsma's later Sony recording which I find stodgy by comparison.
(My current favourites for the Cello Suites are East, Wispelwey (latest recording) and - for a contrast - Lipkind.)
** [edit] - I think it must have been earlier, late '80s. That earlier recording appears to date from 1985, my dim recollection is it was on the RCA label originally.
Quote from: aukhawk on July 04, 2013, 04:11:57 AM
MacGregor's recording of the French Suites is my favourite. So smooth and creamy.
I remember being bowled over by Bylsma's 1st recording of the Cello Suites when I heard it on the radio in the mid-'90s - so light and lively compared with the Tortelier set I was familiar with. Probably my first exposure to the HIP style of performance, a real wake-up. Some time later I bought the CD set assuming I was getting the same thing - but it was Bylsma's later Sony recording which I find stodgy by comparison.
(My current favourites for the Cello Suites are East, Wispelwey (latest recording) and - for a contrast - Lipkind.)
I'm not sorry I took the suggestion made here (or in the cello suites forum) on East.
For those who know German:
(http://taktgefuehle.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/einen-meisterkurs-zur-kunst-der-fuge-hatte-sie-sich-anders-vorgestellt.jpg?w=580)
Einen "Meisterkurs zur Kunst der Fuge" hatte sie sich anders vorgestellt.....
The bricklayer says: "Then after that you spread out the remaining mortar smoothly with the edge of the...Are you paying any attention at all?"
Caption: "She had imagined a 'Master Class on the Art of the Fugue somewhat differently."
In German, "Fuge" can mean "fugue" or the area where the mortar joins the bricks! 0:)
Flee the fugue!
Argh! He stopped just before we might learn the German for trowel! :)
Quote from: karlhenning on July 11, 2013, 11:09:07 AM
Argh! He stopped just before we might learn the German for trowel! :)
My
Duden dictionary, aka
The Big Dude tells us that the bricklayer is about to say
Kelle for "trowel."
There are a couple of quotes from academic writing that have been playing on my mind a lot recently. I think they support each other. Where I'm coming from is trying to understand what it is to play Bach authentically now. I post them here on the offchance that someone else is thinking about the same questions in a similar way
One is from John Butt's book on the Bach Passions:
QuoteWe cannot conceive of a passion setting of this kind existing without the figure of the single minded authorising composer. Most of the gestures, turns of phrase, contrapuntal and formalising techniques are part of a shared vocabulary, but they are pulled together as if from a specific viewpoint . . . The music thereby gains . . . the sense of an implied listening point -- but any such focal point is defined through the organisation of the composition rather than existing prior to it. . . . Perhaps Bach as the composer becomes such a part of ourr own creative imagination because we too can shape our own creative selves through listening to his music; perhaps his music is a mechanism or the trace of a process that is somehow common to both his world and ours.
The second is from Susan McClary's paper "Talking Politics during the Bach Year"
QuoteBach's collected works could only have been produced by someone occupying a de-centred position with respect to acknowledged mainstream [French, German and Italian] musical cultures. . . A German composer had the option of pursuing these various styles side by side or meshing them in relatively unproblematic ways. Bach often calls attention to the separate implications of the various components of which he makes use and then seems to overcome the dichotomies in order to fashion a world (always centrally German) in which aspects of each style can coexist.
The Cello Suites, Bach III (Gastinel, Queyras, Lipkind)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-2VqOm52_jIA/UdQxf89lK6I/AAAAAAAAGl4/5Kar6d1lYnw/s600/BACH_Portrait_abstract_laurson_600.jpg)
ttp://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-cello-suites-bach-iii-gastinel.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-cello-suites-bach-iii-gastinel.html)
Quote from: jlaurson on July 25, 2013, 04:05:40 AM
The Cello Suites, Bach III (Gastinel, Queyras, Lipkind)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-2VqOm52_jIA/UdQxf89lK6I/AAAAAAAAGl4/5Kar6d1lYnw/s600/BACH_Portrait_abstract_laurson_600.jpg)
ttp://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-cello-suites-bach-iii-gastinel.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-cello-suites-bach-iii-gastinel.html)
Interesting. I only own Queyras (which is brilliant), but have heard some from others (including Gastinel, Beschi, Pandolfo & Wispelwey I & II), and some videos of Ophelie Gaillard playing sitting on a tree branch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiybOypvagQ).
Have you heard Gaillard I or II ? (both are OOP now :o)
[asin]B004NWHV6W[/asin]
[asin]B00008OTMQ[/asin]
Quote from: North Star on July 25, 2013, 04:34:07 AM
Have you heard Gaillard I or II ? (both are OOP now :o)
No, I have not. I think the Aparte Gaillard isn't out of print... it's just that there has been a major upheaval in Europe and the US at the same time, with two distributors going under. It might be related to that.
Quote from: jlaurson on July 25, 2013, 08:17:37 AM
No, I have not. I think the Aparte Gaillard isn't out of print... it's just that there has been a major upheaval in Europe and the US at the same time, with two distributors going under. It might be related to that.
Ah yes, it seems to be available on other Amazons.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5qNdvoe4EdM/T385kcE3K6I/AAAAAAAAB6E/nR1C_9bD0sI/s1600/DIP-YOUR-EARS.png)
Dip Your Ears, No. 148 (Double the Chorales, Double the Joy)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/dip-your-ears-no-148-double-chorales.html
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00BI8SEWE.01.L.jpg) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/dip-your-ears-no-148-double-chorales.html)
Quote from: jlaurson on July 27, 2013, 09:14:09 AM
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5qNdvoe4EdM/T385kcE3K6I/AAAAAAAAB6E/nR1C_9bD0sI/s1600/DIP-YOUR-EARS.png)
Dip Your Ears, No. 148 (Double the Chorales, Double the Joy)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/dip-your-ears-no-148-double-chorales.html
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00BI8SEWE.01.L.jpg) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/dip-your-ears-no-148-double-chorales.html)
I'll definitely be getting this set. I haven't purchased a recording of the Orgelbuchlein for a few years, and I loved Cera's set of the French Suites.
Quote from: Sammy on July 27, 2013, 02:34:41 PM
I'll definitely be getting this set. I haven't purchased a recording of the Orgelbuchlein for a few years, and I loved Cera's set of the French Suites.
Knowing these chorales almost too well, I do not feel any need to hear them sung in this context, regardless of how beautifully they are sung. IMO it is nice just to listen to the chorale preludes in sequence.
But this recording is a must because of Cera´s informed and beautifully expressive interpretations. So I think I shall get his French suites after all, even if I surely own too many French suites (Sigh - I am desperately trying to fight against my ingrained completism).
I noticed there is a new recording by Susanne Heinrich of some of Bach's solo violin music transcribed for Viola Da Gamba. I couldn't find a good image to link to. I haven't seen any reviews or mentioned of this recording save one on the Guardian. I'm intrigued.
Quote from: milk on August 04, 2013, 06:22:53 AM
I noticed there is a new recording by Susanne Heinrich of some of Bach's solo violin music transcribed for Viola Da Gamba. I couldn't find a good image to link to. I haven't seen any reviews or mentioned of this recording save one on the Guardian. I'm intrigued.
It's on spotify.
I must say I'm so impressed by the sound Les Voix Humaines make when they play Art of Fugue that anything else gamba wise is a bit of a disappointment. I once read a 17th century review which said that the viola de gamba sounds like a refined diplomat speaking gently. That's exactly what Les Voix Humaines sound like to me - a bunch of refined diplomats all speaking at the same time. Not for nothing are they called what they're called.
Quote from: jlaurson on July 27, 2013, 09:14:09 AM
[....]
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/dip-your-ears-no-148-double-chorales.html
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00BI8SEWE.01.L.jpg)[/url]
Jens, about the consecution
organ-choir vs
choir-organ, mentioned in your review.
The organ pieces are preludes, so I think they are meant to precede the sung chorals. I've attended some protestant services, and in those the organist begins with a prelude (if one's lucky, it's a nice Bach one ;)) and then the congregation begins to sing, accompanied by the organ. But they are not singing just one stanza, in most cases they are singing 3 or more stanzas. Therefore the duration of both prelude and choral execution is more in balance, compared to most cd recordings where just one stanza is sung. All stanzas are accompanied by the organ, and the final stanza is often accompanied
in organo pleno. In some cases the final stanza is followed by an organ postlude.
Quote from: Marc on August 04, 2013, 09:57:43 PM
Jens, about the consecution organ-choir vs choir-organ, mentioned in your review.
The organ pieces are preludes, so I think they are meant to precede the sung chorals.
Well, I've sung in churches plenty, too, catholic and protestant... so I know that. But surely the point of a CD is not to replicate the service (i.e. familiarize the crowd with the melody and attune them to pitch so that they can then carol along), but to familiarize with Bach. Especially, as you point out, that the balance of the service is not retained by making it only one stanza, when even today there are still three or so (usually stanzas 1, 2, and 5, for some reason -- no? :-)) used, and back then perhaps the whole lot.
Must admit, the Cantatas are an eye-opener. Not that there was ever the least doubt what a cracking good composer Bach was, of course. But I increasingly feel, when listening to a Cantata, that I could listen to nothing but Bach all day . . . .
Quote from: karlhenning on August 14, 2013, 05:24:36 AM
Must admit, the Cantatas are an eye-opener. Not that there was ever the least doubt what a cracking good composer Bach was, of course. But I increasingly feel, when listening to a Cantata, that I could listen to nothing but Bach all day . . . .
I'm glad to see you come around. 8)
Quote from: karlhenning on August 14, 2013, 05:24:36 AM
Must admit, the Cantatas are an eye-opener. Not that there was ever the least doubt what a cracking good composer Bach was, of course. But I increasingly feel, when listening to a Cantata, that I could listen to nothing but Bach all day . . . .
\
Listening to Bach all day for years is not recommended. I wore some of his finest works out to my ears or I might say I ration them now. Actually it is pretty hard to do with all those cantatas and I have not achieved it yet. Mozart may be a equal musical genius but no one, in all of music to my knowledge, has Bach's personal integrity. At least I find no clever insincerity about him.
Quote from: Johnll on August 14, 2013, 07:51:17 PM
Listening to Bach all day for years is not recommended.
Well, there is no danger, I couldn't possibly do that . . . I'd reach for too much
Haydn,
Shostakovich,
Stravinsky,
Mozart,
Sibelius,
Nielsen [...] in the year's course . . . .
I'm quite convinced I could survive on a desert island with only Bach's complete works. ;)
(Although I would ask permission to take Mozart's Da Ponte opera's with me, too.)
Just finished listening to:
Bach's Chromatic Fantasia and Fugue in D minor, BWV 903
The fugue is OMFG so damn good!! Why should I be surprised? It's Bach! :D
From the Hewitt set.
I notice a positive review on Music-web of Susanne Heinrich's recording of some the violin sonatas and partitas transcribed for viol da gamba:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/Dec13/Bach_transcriptions_DAGAMBA100.htm
Is Johan van Veen someone who posts on here? I forget who is who.
Quote from: milk on December 01, 2013, 05:54:04 AM
I notice a positive review on Music-web of Susanne Heinrich's recording of some the violin sonatas and partitas transcribed for viol da gamba:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/Dec13/Bach_transcriptions_DAGAMBA100.htm
Is Johan van Veen someone who posts on here? I forget who is who.
AFAIK, he's not a member here. But he does have his own website
http://www.musica-dei-donum.org/
And posts a weekly listing of new reviews and articles to the otherwise completely moribund Orfeo yahoo mailing list.
A detailed review on Gardiner's Bach: Music in the Castle of Heaven by George B. Stauffer (NY Review of Books), under the title "Why Bach Moves Us":
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/feb/20/why-bach-moves-us/?insrc=hpss
:)
As usual, I have done some searching and very probably missed some discussion.
I just listened to the EASTER ORATORIO [OSTER-ORATORIUM] BWV249 and it was more powerful than ever. This time I followed a text and listened more attentively and the effect was quite a bit more than 'edifying'. It really sent me.
The recording I listened to was the Südwestdeutsches Kammerorchester Pforzheim dir. "Prof." Rolf Schweizer, with voices of Christine Brenk, Anne Greiling, Frank Bossert, and Thomas Pfeiffer as the personae (?), recorded 1999 in the Stadtkirche Pforzheim. This was the recording included in Brilliant's "complete" megabox. It's been so long since I've listened to the piece, I don't know how much this performance had to do with my thrall.
I am itching to head back to the ones I have: Suzuki, Parrott, Herreweghe. Are there any other recordings of the piece that I absolutely should not miss?
If there are texts on/about the piece (in English) that are well worth reading, I'm interested.
Quote from: Octave on March 21, 2014, 01:28:03 AM.I am itching to head back to the ones I have: Suzuki, Parrott, Herreweghe. Are there any other recordings of the piece that I absolutely should not miss?
Herreweghe's version has always done it for me but an interesting one on the horizon is Gardiner's:
[asin]B00HX6FDSI[/asin]
Gardiner's cantatas from the pilgrimage have always been blessed with wonderfully informative and lengthy annotations so I'd assume the same would apply to the Easter Oratorio. An added plus.
Almost exactly a month since someone lasted posted here!
Well, I'm almost at the end of a complete first run through of the Hanssler Bachakademie Complete Bach box*, and I've already gotten the equivalent box from Teldec, so I'd thought I'd make a brief general comparison of the two for anyone interested in them.
I'm pretty much pleased with both of them, and both of them have different strengths and weaknesses. Overall, I though Hanssler did a better job with the vocal works, and Teldec with the instrumental works, but with shadings. I preferred the Hanssler recordings of the organ works (by a variety of organists) to that of Teldec (Koopman). One real musical treasure that is well done in both boxes was the collection of four part chorale settings (ie, the chorales for chorus, as opposed to the chorales for organ).
Hanssler is mostly MI, and Teldec is of course thoroughly HIP/PI.
I found myself preferring the vocal works in the Hanssler box for two reasons: first, I'm not a fan of boy sopranos, who of course are a staple of the Leonhardt/Harnoncourt cycle found in the Teldec box; second, Rilling's presentation of the vocal works came across better to me, especially in the Passions and other "major" choral works. But I prefer my other complete cycle of cantatas--Gardiner--to either of the ones in the boxes.
On the other hand, the presentation of the keyboard and orchestral works was a sort of hodgepodge in the Hanssler box, but more consistent (in part because of the only PI approach) in the Teldec box, and in general I prefer a PI approach (boy sopranos excepted).
Hanssler has issued several segments of its box as smaller sets, including both the sacred cantatas and the organ works, so a nice compromise might be to get those two smaller sets, and the complete Teldec box.
*listening to the flute sonatas now, which will leave only the suites for solo cello to be heard, and I hope to get that in the CD player sometime tomorrow.
Interesting opinions, Jeffrey.
I generally prefer the Teldec Edition as a whole. The only exceptions are the keyboard works (when played on period instruments) and the organ works which are, IMO, fully competitive (keyboard works) or on a par (organ works) with the Teldec Edition.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 20, 2014, 06:41:29 PM
*listening to the flute sonatas now, which will leave only the suites for solo cello to be heard, and I hope to get that in the CD player sometime tomorrow.
IMO, those flute sonatas are some of the worst disks of the Hänssler Edition.
Quote from: Gordo on April 20, 2014, 07:12:05 PM
Interesting opinions, Jeffrey.
I generally prefer the Teldec Edition as a whole. The only exceptions are the keyboard works (when played on period instruments) and the organ works which are, IMO, fully competitive (keyboard works) or on a par (organ works) with the Teldec Edition.
IMO, those flute sonatas are some of the worst disks of the Hänssler Edition.
The only other recording of the flute works I have is the one in the Teldec box, and frankly neither performance impressed me, so I am left thinking this part of Bach's output is not among his best.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 20, 2014, 07:18:37 PM
The only other recording of the flute works I have is the one in the Teldec box, and frankly neither performance impressed me, so I am left thinking this part of Bach's output is not among his best.
Well, you're not alone, some people think this way. I'm not one of them, though.
If you decide to try again in the future, I would suggest to try this superb disk:
[asin]B000023XE7[/asin]
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 20, 2014, 07:18:37 PM
The only other recording of the flute works I have is the one in the Teldec box, and frankly neither performance impressed me, so I am left thinking this part of Bach's output is not among his best.
You might be onto something... :-) http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/04/bach-is-next-to-godliness-flute-not_8.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/04/bach-is-next-to-godliness-flute-not_8.html)
While I agree that the flute sonatas do not rank among Bach's greatest works, I still enjoy them. I like this recording, which I've heard through streaming... I really need to buy it.
[asin] B00AG8HSZG[/asin]
Definitely my standpoint is very different here: I don't experience any boredom when I listen to Barthold Kuijken (DHM), Masahiro Arita (Denon) or the aforementioned Hantaï (Virgin), IMO the finest exponents in this repertoire.
On the other hand, my experience with Oliva was disappointing. The mixing flute/piano was really soporific, not just because of the instruments, but because of the light touch of Hewitt, too.
That said, are these works and the partita the greatest masterpieces of Bach? No, of course, they are not and their story is full of unanswered questions. But, IMO, there is a lot of enjoyment to be found there.
Quote from: DavidW on April 21, 2014, 06:20:10 AM
While I agree that the flute sonatas do not rank among Bach's greatest works, I still enjoy them. I like this recording, which I've heard through streaming... I really need to buy it.
[asin] B00AG8HSZG[/asin]
Bless me! I have that recording but completely forgot about it last night. Well, it is better than the Hanssler recording, but not enough to make me a fan. I will wishlist Jens' suggestion (at his link) but at the current prices for the Hantai, that will have to wait for a reissue.
BTW, I'm listening to Boris Pergamenshikow performing the cello suites now (from the Hanssler box), and it's a first rate performance; I get to leave the set with one of its high points, apparently.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 21, 2014, 07:43:47 AM
Bless me! I have that recording but completely forgot about it last night. Well, it is better than the Hanssler recording, but not enough to make me a fan. I will wishlist Jens' suggestion (at his link) but at the current prices for the Hantai, that will have to wait for a reissue.
I wonder who plays 'em on the Flash Edition . . . .
Quote from: karlhenning on April 21, 2014, 08:43:39 AM
I wonder who plays 'em on the Flash Edition . . . .
Leopold Stastny [plus Frans Brüggen (BWV 1039)]
Thank you, sir!
Quote from: Gordo on April 21, 2014, 09:26:31 AM
Leopold Stastny [plus Frans Brüggen (BWV 1039)]
Not all of them, a few are recorded om MI by Rampal and co. At least the Partita is considered authentic.
Partita for Flute solo in A minor, BWV 1013 by Johann Sebastian Bach
Performer: Jean-Pierre Rampal (Flute)
Written: ?1720s; ?Cöthen, Germany
Sonata for Flute and Harpsichord in E flat major, BWV 1031 by Johann Sebastian Bach
Performer: Jean-Pierre Rampal (Flute), Robert Veyron-Lacroix (Harpsichord), Jordi Savall (Bass Viola da gamba)
Written: circa 1734; Leipzig, Germany
Sonata for Flute and Harpsichord in C major, BWV 1033 by Johann Sebastian Bach
Performer: Jordi Savall (Bass Viola da gamba), Robert Veyron-Lacroix (Harpsichord), Jean-Pierre Rampal (Flute)
Written: Germany
Quote from: (: premont :) on April 24, 2014, 09:35:32 AM
Not all of them, a few are recorded om MI by Rampal and co. At least the Partita is considered authentic.
Partita for Flute solo in A minor, BWV 1013 by Johann Sebastian Bach
Performer: Jean-Pierre Rampal (Flute)
Written: ?1720s; ?Cöthen, Germany
Sonata for Flute and Harpsichord in E flat major, BWV 1031 by Johann Sebastian Bach
Performer: Jean-Pierre Rampal (Flute), Robert Veyron-Lacroix (Harpsichord), Jordi Savall (Bass Viola da gamba)
Written: circa 1734; Leipzig, Germany
Sonata for Flute and Harpsichord in C major, BWV 1033 by Johann Sebastian Bach
Performer: Jordi Savall (Bass Viola da gamba), Robert Veyron-Lacroix (Harpsichord), Jean-Pierre Rampal (Flute)
Written: Germany
Yes, it's right. But we were talking about the flute sonatas, so the partita didn't come to my mind.
Regarding the sonatas BWV 1031 and BWV 1033, I agree they could be included or not as a part of a complete set. For instance, Barthold Kuijken didn't include any of them as part of his set on DHM; but later the sonata BWV 1033 appears as part of his disk on Accent.
Do you have some strong favorite here?
Pardon the interruption, but I see that this about to be released on Alpha:
http://www.outhere-music.com/en/albums/sonates-solo-pour-la-flute-traversiere-alpha-186
JOHANN SEBASTIAN BACH
SONATES & SOLO POUR LA FLÛTE TRAVERSIÈRE
Thomas Dunford - Jean Rondeau - Les Musiciens de Saint-Julien
Lucile Boulanger - François Lazarevitch
As director of Les Musiciens de Saint-Julien, François Lazarevitch has enabled us to discover numerous treasures stemming from dance and folk music. For the first time on Alpha, he has recorded a solo album, devoted to Johann Sebastian Bach's Flute Sonatas. His approach to these works benefits from his experience as the conductor of an ensemble, enriched by the particularly varied musical experiments he has carried out.
So this disc offers us an especially interesting and singular interpretation of these treasures by Bach with a rhythmic approach not lacking in swing, and backed up, it is true, by a basso continuo featuring first-rank instrumentalists.
Quote from: HIPster on April 24, 2014, 03:51:46 PM
Pardon the interruption, but I see that this about to be released on Alpha:
http://www.outhere-music.com/en/albums/sonates-solo-pour-la-flute-traversiere-alpha-186
JOHANN SEBASTIAN BACH
SONATES & SOLO POUR LA FLÛTE TRAVERSIÈRE
Thomas Dunford - Jean Rondeau - Les Musiciens de Saint-Julien
Lucile Boulanger - François Lazarevitch
As director of Les Musiciens de Saint-Julien, François Lazarevitch has enabled us to discover numerous treasures stemming from dance and folk music. For the first time on Alpha, he has recorded a solo album, devoted to Johann Sebastian Bach's Flute Sonatas. His approach to these works benefits from his experience as the conductor of an ensemble, enriched by the particularly varied musical experiments he has carried out.
So this disc offers us an especially interesting and singular interpretation of these treasures by Bach with a rhythmic approach not lacking in swing, and backed up, it is true, by a basso continuo featuring first-rank instrumentalists.
Excellent: a new release to explore.
Talking about Outhere's labels, I have also considered this Ramée disk (flute/pianoforte): http://www.ramee.org/0404gb.html
Quote from: Gordo on April 24, 2014, 02:30:32 PM
Do you have some strong favorite here?
Good BWV1030-1035s: Beznosiuk & Nicholson & Tunnicliffe, Galway & Moll & Cunningham (fav), Hazelzet & Ogg & Linden (fav), Petri & Jarrett (fav), Preston & Pinnock & Savall Rampal & Pinnock & Pidoux, See & Moroney & Springfels
Good BWV1013s: Beznosiuk, Galway, Preston (fav), Rampal
Quote from: G. String on April 25, 2014, 03:08:05 AM
Good BWV1030-1035s: Beznosiuk & Nicholson & Tunnicliffe, Galway & Moll & Cunningham (fav), Hazelzet & Ogg & Linden (fav), Petri & Jarrett (fav), Preston & Pinnock & Savall Rampal & Pinnock & Pidoux, See & Moroney & Springfels
Good BWV1013s: Beznosiuk, Galway, Preston (fav), Rampal
Thanks, G. String!
I have all the interpretations on period instrument and Rampal.
Among those mentioned, I also prefer Hazelzet (btw, he has a previous recording as a member of Musica Antiqua Köln).
Some years ago I enjoyed quite a lot Janet See, but currently I'm bit exasperated by her extremely slow tempi. Beznosiuk, on the contrary, has never conquered my attention (a little bit... boring?).
I'm considering Petri/Jarret (played on recorder, right?), so your opinion is welcomed.
As I said before my personal favorites are Hantaï (Virgin), Kuijken (DHM) and Arita (Denon). Of course, Hantaï is not a "complete" set.
Then Preston (almost at the same level of the previous three, re-released on BC) and Brüggen (SEON).
After them the excellent Joshua Smith (on Delos Records). :)
Quote from: Gordo on April 25, 2014, 06:50:51 PM
I'm considering Petri/Jarret (played on recorder, right?), so your opinion is welcomed.
I'm not a fan of Jarrett but I am of Petri. Yes, it's a recorder but one with a modern pitch. The recorder sounds colder than flute for sure but it is way more lucid. They are a bit faster than Hazelzet's take but, with Petri in her top form, they all sound fluent instead of rushed. I like their Handel sonatas, too and I's recommend this set, too.
Quote from: Gordo on April 25, 2014, 06:50:51 PM
Among those mentioned, I also prefer Hazelzet (btw, he has a previous recording as a member of Musica Antiqua Köln).
Some years ago I enjoyed quite a lot Janet See, but currently I'm bit exasperated by her extremely slow tempi. Beznosiuk, on the contrary, has never conquered my attention (a little bit... boring?).
I'm considering Petri/Jarret (played on recorder, right?), so your opinion is welcomed.
As I said before my personal favorites are Hantaï (Virgin), Kuijken (DHM) and Arita (Denon). Of course, Hantaï is not a "complete" set.
Then Preston (almost at the same level of the previous three, re-released on BC) and Brüggen (SEON).
Excactly my preferences and even in identical order. I recently acquired Beznosiuk, but I feel, that the music never really takes off under her fingers.
Petri, yes recorders, she plays more expressive than usual, somewhat like the Händel sonata CD also with Jarrett.
Quote from: Gordo on April 25, 2014, 06:50:51 PM
Among those mentioned, I also prefer Hazelzet (btw, he has a previous recording as a member of Musica Antiqua Köln).
Beznosiuk, on the contrary, has never conquered my attention (a little bit... boring?).
I'm considering Petri/Jarret (played on recorder, right?), so your opinion is welcomed.
As I said before my personal favorites are Hantaï (Virgin), Kuijken (DHM) and Arita (Denon). Of course, Hantaï is not a "complete" set.
I have Goebel's chamber music set with Hazelzet and Bouman but I'm not a fan of any in that set.
I like listening to Beznosiuk's 1013.
I'll listen to Suzuki/Arita today again. I'm not sure I have Hantai unless it's in a box set or something
I "tortured" my kids with this BBC Bach documentary today! Pretty interesting overall (as an overview)! :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkKd1fjgqKI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkKd1fjgqKI)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkKd1fjgqKI
Might be interesting.
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0003/750/MI0003750191.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Quote from: milk on June 30, 2014, 08:05:53 AM
Might be interesting.
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0003/750/MI0003750191.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
More than interesting, it's a sensational disc. Get it soon!
Quote from: milk on June 30, 2014, 08:05:53 AM
Might be interesting.
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0003/750/MI0003750191.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
This was, I think, her first recording, made in 1999. It's quite exuberant and up-beat in the suites. If it is the same as the early recording, Don reviewed it on the Bach cantatas website.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 30, 2014, 09:25:27 PM
This was, I think, her first recording, made in 1999. It's quite exuberant and up-beat in the suites. If it is the same as the early recording, Don reviewed it on the Bach cantatas website.
Ah-ha!
5.99 on amazon 6.99 on itunes in 8/14. The price will be right if I wait for the rerelease. I definitely read Don's review more than once but still forgotten it.
Quote from: milk on July 01, 2014, 01:30:19 AM
Ah-ha!
5.99 on amazon 6.99 on itunes in 8/14. The price will be right if I wait for the rerelease. I definitely read Don's review more than once but still forgotten it.
Although I wrote it, I also forgot about it. ;D
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 07, 2014, 01:04:03 PM
Excactly my preferences and even in identical order. I recently acquired Beznosiuk, but I feel, that the music never really takes off under her fingers.
Yes, Beznosiuk is truly sleep-inducing.
After I wrote my previous message, I acquired the set by Verena Fischer and Leon Berben and it was a sort of revelation, especially because of the great interplay between them. Have you listened to that set, Poul?
Quote from: Gordo on July 01, 2014, 08:39:33 PM
....I acquired the set by Verena Fischer and Leon Berben and it was a sort of revelation, especially because of the great interplay between them. Have you listened to that set, Poul?
No, but I have considered it and will include it in my next JPC or Presto order.
First listen to these performances (thanks to Greg in Georgia!) :) Excellent stuff!
Bach
Harpsichord Concerto in A major, BWV 1055
Harpsichord Concerto in F minor, BWV 1056
Harpsichord Concerto in F major, BWV 1057
Harpsichord Concerto in G minor, BWV 1058
2 Harpsichord Concerto in C minor, BWV 1060 "the Barry Lyndon concerto" :)
The English Concert
Pinnock, conducting and performing on harpsichord
Kenneth Gilbert, harpsichord for BWV 1060
[asin]B00006IQFL[/asin]
Notes from the 2014 Salzburg Festival ( 1 )
Bach Recital • Pierre-Laurent Aimard
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-kbBJMf2qoKg/U85r_6z2dcI/AAAAAAAAHeM/BDnyUcuWMIM/s1600/notesfromthesalzburgfestival2014.gif)
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00KXJD3FC.01.L.jpg) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/07/notes-from-2014-salzburg-festival-2.html)
QuoteA Happy Spiritual Vortex
For a couple years, the Salzburg Festival has opened its doors a week earlier than traditionally, dubbing the prequel to the Festival—officially part of it, but taking place before the official opening ceremony— "Ouverture spirituelle". It began on the 18th with the BRSO and Haitink in Haydn's Creation. On Saturday came the first highlight—which, paraphrasing everyone I know who was there, was "a concert to remember for years, if not decades": Monteverdi's Vespro della Beata Vergine with John Elliot Gardiner and his bands, that used the Salzburg cathedral to ingenious acoustic effect. I missed that, but Monday I had my own Ouverture spirituelle in the form of Pierre-Laurent Aimard's recital of Bach's Well Tempered Clavier...
Notes from the 2014 Salzburg Festival ( 2 )
Bruckner Cycle IV • Barenboim, WPh(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-kbBJMf2qoKg/U85r_6z2dcI/AAAAAAAAHeM/BDnyUcuWMIM/s1600/notesfromthesalzburgfestival2014.gif)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-SZ6aBaB4KTw/U9GbiBHD6fI/AAAAAAAAHgI/tREuO1rNtO4/s1600/Salzburg_Barenboim_Domingo_Reger_WPh_laurson_600.jpg) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/07/notes-from-2014-salzburg-festival-2.html)
QuoteLorin Maazel was a fixture at the Salzburg Festival, leading 119 performances between 1963 and 2013.
It made sense, therefore, to slap an "in Memoriam" label onto one of this summer's performances and even more so
to make it one of the concerts in which a requiem featured... and furthermore with an orchestra that had a history with
Lorin Maazel. The first such concert happened to be the Vienna Philharmonic's opening shot under Daniel Barenboim—
the beginning of this year's Bruckner Cycle at the Salzburg Festival...
I was reading this page on the Bach BBCs and came across the dilemma of the two-note slow movement in the 3rd (I played this as a freshman in orchestra in high school and we thought it was hilarious that the 2nd movement was two notes). Thoughts on this? What do you prefer?
http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics2/brandenburg.html
(Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V alert!)
Quote
Between them lies a puzzle that has perplexed scholars and challenged performers. The second movement, labeled adagio, consists of two chords forming a bare Phrygian cadence of the type that often links a slow middle movement in the relative minor to a vivid major-key finale, but with an intriguing sense of open expectancy. Here, the chords occur in the middle of a page, so clearly no music was lost. Yet the remainder of the score is fully detailed and presumably was intended as complete guidance to the Margrave's forces, as Bach had no realistic expectation of preparing a performance. What to do?
Several scholars note that Corelli and other contemporaries inserted similar bare cadences in their scores, and Reiner, Casals, Klemperer and others schooled in Romantic interpretation play it unadorned in their recordings. Yet when played literally it sounds far too short to serve as a needed respite between two rollicking neighboring movements. Other scholars assume that it must have been a conventional shorthand instruction that all performers of the time would have understood to require embellishment or an improvised interlude (even though the meaning has since been lost). Yet the question remains as to which instruments would do this. In several recordings (Cortot, Goberman, Horenstein, Ristenpart, Karajan, I Musici) the harpsichordist ornaments the first or both chords with arpeggiated runs. Others (Sacher, Richter, Paillard) go further, with the harpsichordist providing brief fantasies recalling thematic material from the preceding movement. Yet the soft tinkling of that instrument seems dwarfed by the sonority and at odds with the string texture of the surrounding movements. (Sacher's and Paillard's engineers avoid the former problem by cranking up the harpsichord volume for the passage to unnatural levels.) Busch, Harnoncourt, Hogwood and Britten avoid both issues by having their violinists embroider the chords.
Other recordings (Pommer and Pinnock) attempt to restore the usual formal balance of three entire movements by having their violinists extemporize at greater length. Still others extend the effect by inserting a slow movement from one of Bach's other, and often more obscure, works. Thus, Dart uses the adagio from a Sonata in G for violin and continuo, Munchinger the ruminative, delicate Concerto # 15 for solo harpsichord (itself possibly an arrangement of a Telemann piece), Koussevitzky the tragic sinfonia from the Cantata # 4, the Brandenburg Consort the adagio from Bach's Violin Sonata in G, and Menuhin an arrangement by Britten for violin, viola and continuo of the gracious, mournful lento of Bach's organ Trio Sonata # 6 (although curiously Britten omits all the embellishments found in the three-part organ score and didn't use this movement in his own recording). While none of these seems wholly satisfactory, they all present intriguing attempts to surmount the vexing snag posed by Bach.
Last night I played Perahia's English suite disc, and was so pleased I played it again this morning (in my bedroom).
I had completely forgotten that I had the Bob Van Asperen version cued in my 5 disc player in my study, and when it came on I was almost equally impressed, although the effect and mood of the two are surprisingly different (at least to my ears). The two discs I played covered different suites, but I did not even realize they were part of the same series, and, to be honest, might not have even if they had been the same :-[
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41CHZAHJ67L.jpg)
[asin]B00000HXL7[/asin]
I cannot check right now, but I think the first time I encountered more than the chords with a few (violin, I think) flourishes, but a real "slow movement" was W. Carlos "Switched on Bach"! I think this movement was composed by Carlos.
As Bach usually wrote out most things and left little to the imagination of the performer, the case is definitely odd. (And the score/parts of these concerts are in a representative calligraphed copy, I think, so not some scraps from the music room.) I guess a short improvised transition would come closest to practice in Bach's day, but I wonder why so few ensembles arrange and insert a short slow movement from other Bach. I do not think there's any among my five or so recordings of the piece, but I'd have to check.
This afternoon I listened to the flute sonatas recorded by Wilbert Hazelzet and Henrik "Henk" Bouman, when they were part of Musica Antiqua Köln.
I have a well known 2002 re-release ("Orchestral and Chamber Music", 8 CDs), where the liner notes don't indicate the instruments used and I would really like to know what harpsichord is playing Bouman. Some kind soul around here? :)
Quote from: Gordo on December 20, 2014, 02:45:14 PM
This afternoon I listened to the flute sonatas recorded by Wilbert Hazelzet and Henrik "Henk" Bouman, when they were part of Musica Antiqua Köln.
I have a well known 2002 re-release ("Orchestral and Chamber Music", 8 CDs), where the liner notes don't indicate the instruments used and I would really like to know what harpsichord is playing Bouman. Some kind soul around here? :)
BWV 1030-1032: Keith Hill, Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA, 1982, after German 18th century instruments.
BWV 1033: Willem Kroesbergen, Utrecht, NL, 1980, after Ruckers, around 1650.
BWV 1034-1035: Joop Klinkhamer, Amsterdam, NL, 1979, after Flemish 18th century instruments.
Quote from: Marc on December 20, 2014, 05:03:05 PM
BWV 1030-1032: Keith Hill, Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA, 1982, after German 18th century instruments.
BWV 1033: Willem Kroesbergen, Utrecht, NL, 1980, after Ruckers, around 1650.
BWV 1034-1035: Joop Klinkhamer, Amsterdam, NL, 1979, after Flemish 18th century instruments.
Thank you very much, Marc! It was the Keith Hill... lovely instrument. :)
David Smith of Presto Classical has recommended some recordings of Bach's choral and vocal works (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/favourites/1232/JS-Bach-Choral-Vocal-Works). (I have no connection to Presto.)
Sigiswald Kuijken and Marleen Thiers, discuss the book (http://www.lapetitebande.be/support.php) Kuijken wrote, in which he writes of his relationship with Bach's music. The book is only available through La Petite Bande.
https://www.youtube.com/v/SERcTF1F9hI
Quote from: North Star on March 01, 2015, 10:05:02 AM
Sigiswald Kuijken and Marleen Thiers, discuss the book (http://www.lapetitebande.be/support.php) Kuijken wrote, in which he writes of his relationship with Bach's music. The book is only available through La Petite Bande.
https://www.youtube.com/v/SERcTF1F9hI
What language is this book in?
Quote from: Mandryka on March 01, 2015, 10:26:46 AM
What language is this book in?
From the site: "For the time being, we decided to have the book published in Dutch, French, English, German, Spanish, Italian and Japanese."
Has anyone explored Helge Thoene's ideas about the Chaconne? How have Bach scholars responded to what she says?
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 19, 2015, 05:07:21 PM
Makes for interesting reading, some recommendations are totally laughable (Abbado and Rattle in the 3rd symphony???). The guy never heard a Horenstein or Barbirollin recording he didn't love. You really have to take whatever he says with a grain of salt. I think he throws in a couple of good mainstream recommendations in there so that he be taken seriously for the various ridiculous Horenstein, Barbirolli, or British-biased picks that he makes.
British-bias is an almost amusing thing among the Brits. Mind you, it's better to be biased FOR your own than AGAINST those who are not (as in German or French bias, if I may grossly simplify), but still.
The 10 Best Bach recordings on Gramophone's site are ALL by British artists. Very droll. Will publish an alternative on Forbes... have a few ideas (including several English artists, who are often magnificent) but would like to hear others', too. If you have suggestions, perhaps you could post them in a relevant Bach-thread? Much appreciated.
Hmm. Interesting. I only now discovered that tune of the quodlibet from the variation 30 of Goldberg variations also appears in BWV212. Which composition came first?
Quote from: Alberich on November 04, 2015, 06:47:42 AM
Hmm. Interesting. I only now discovered that tune of the quodlibet from the variation 30 of Goldberg variations also appears in BWV212. Which composition came first?
The tune
s from that are MUCH older. You are referring to the
Bergamasca, which Frescobaldi uses as the "Bergamasca melody" that is at the base of Bach's quodlibet of "Kraut und Rüben / haben mich vertrieben" and "Ich bin so lang nicht bey dir g'west". I'm not certain that the popular medieval songs are still older than the Bergamasca, but both are older than Bach.
The Bergamasca is close to "Kraut und Rüben". I think the other song is the one used in the Peasant Cantata as well, but I am sure that this one is also older and was not invented by Bach. Only a few weeks ago I encountered for the first time the Buxtehude variations on the Bergamasca which very probably was a model for the Goldbergs and the quodlibet may have that melody to make the allusion explicit.
Fresh from Forbes:
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GS9pLMtbk04/VIB7VKbHqeI/AAAAAAAAHvs/QnxWx_SUGxc/s1600/Forbes_SOUND_ADVICE_laurson_2_600.jpg)
NOV 25, 2015
The Real Top 10 Bach Recordings
Bach, the Grand Master
There is something about the music of Johann Sebastian Bach that puts it in a category of its own.
Bach is the P.G. Wodehouse and the Shakespeare of the musical score rolled into one. He is the
only composer on whom I cannot overdose, and while his music seemed dated to his own, slightly
embarrassed sons, it strikes us as perfectly timeless now. His works pillars of mankind's culture,
and his music constitute the first tracks etched onto the golden record Voyager record that sails
toward hypothetical distant galactic civilizations. I should think that potential aliens might rather
get too sanguine an impression of us* ... but there we go: Bach is the bee's knees, and anyone
who knows Bach but doesn't love his music is going to be suspect to me, lest I learn a exculpatory
reason for their lamentable deficiency.
The Gramophone Bias
Gramophone Magazine is the only English language magazine that combines serious CD-reviewing
with the glossy, popular magazine approach. I used to read it religiously and got many of my first
hints, tastes, and opinions from its pages. BBC Music Magazine gets close; Classic FM Magazine
lasted nearly twenty years but wasn't taken seriously by the cogniscenti. No-nonsense, no-picture
publications like the American Record Guide or Fanfare Magazine (both American), which exude the
charm of telephone books, are total geek literature, arcane, loved by the few dedicated readers, and
more or less published out of the basements of their respective, dedicated publishers... private
ventures and labors of love that, like the lamented International Record Review, won't likely survive
their founders.
In my time as a clerk at Tower Records, we would sometimes make fun of Gramophone Magazine's
rather obvious pro-English biases. "Proximity bias" or "mere exposure effect" might be the appropriate
euphemism for them being unabashed homers. And indeed, when they published a "10 Best Bach
Recordings" list published early last year, they topped it in such a ridiculous way that it needed soft
rebutting which I hope to provide hereby...
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/11/25/the-real-top-10-bach-recordings/
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2015/11/Top-10_Bach_Recordings_laurson_600-1200x446.jpg) (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/11/25/the-real-top-10-bach-recordings/)
Quote from: jlaurson on November 26, 2015, 01:15:24 AM
Fresh from Forbes:
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GS9pLMtbk04/VIB7VKbHqeI/AAAAAAAAHvs/QnxWx_SUGxc/s1600/Forbes_SOUND_ADVICE_laurson_2_600.jpg)
NOV 25, 2015
The Real Top 10 Bach Recordings
Bach, the Grand Master
There is something about the music of Johann Sebastian Bach that puts it in a category of its own.
Bach is the P.G. Wodehouse and the Shakespeare of the musical score rolled into one. He is the
only composer on whom I cannot overdose, and while his music seemed dated to his own, slightly
embarrassed sons, it strikes us as perfectly timeless now. His works pillars of mankind's culture,
and his music constitute the first tracks etched onto the golden record Voyager record that sails
toward hypothetical distant galactic civilizations. I should think that potential aliens might rather
get too sanguine an impression of us* ... but there we go: Bach is the bee's knees, and anyone
who knows Bach but doesn't love his music is going to be suspect to me, lest I learn a exculpatory
reason for their lamentable deficiency.
The Gramophone Bias
Gramophone Magazine is the only English language magazine that combines serious CD-reviewing
with the glossy, popular magazine approach. I used to read it religiously and got many of my first
hints, tastes, and opinions from its pages. BBC Music Magazine gets close; Classic FM Magazine
lasted nearly twenty years but wasn't taken seriously by the cogniscenti. No-nonsense, no-picture
publications like the American Record Guide or Fanfare Magazine (both American), which exude the
charm of telephone books, are total geek literature, arcane, loved by the few dedicated readers, and
more or less published out of the basements of their respective, dedicated publishers... private
ventures and labors of love that, like the lamented International Record Review, won't likely survive
their founders.
In my time as a clerk at Tower Records, we would sometimes make fun of Gramophone Magazine's
rather obvious pro-English biases. "Proximity bias" or "mere exposure effect" might be the appropriate
euphemism for them being unabashed homers. And indeed, when they published a "10 Best Bach
Recordings" list published early last year, they topped it in such a ridiculous way that it needed soft
rebutting which I hope to provide hereby...
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/11/25/the-real-top-10-bach-recordings/
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2015/11/Top-10_Bach_Recordings_laurson_600-1200x446.jpg) (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/11/25/the-real-top-10-bach-recordings/)
Very much enjoyed this one,
Jens.
Quote from: karlhenning on November 30, 2015, 09:41:47 AM
Very much enjoyed this one, Jens.
thank you kindly! i aim to be readable and on occasion even worth reading. :)
Quote from: jlaurson on December 01, 2015, 03:59:20 AM
thank you kindly! i aim to be readable and on occasion even worth reading. :)
You scored on both accounts. I'll have to check out Schiff. I always had the prejudice that the partitas just don't work on piano. I also had the prejudice that the Orchestral Suits don't rate as highly as, say, the French suites or the sonatas for violin and keyboard, or some of the cantatas. But that's a matter of taste I guess.
Hmm...do we have a thread for Bach's ten best works? But I guess it's complicated. Some of his best work may not be part of a cycle or group of works? But I would put some of the organ cycles ahead of orchestral suites as well.
Does anyone have spreadsheets for the cantatas and organ pieces?
http://bach-cantatas.com/IndexBWV.htm
has pdf-lists and a spreadsheet for the cantatas but with *each movement* of a cantata listed which is too much.
I want them to get an overview with my incomplete hodge-podge collection of these parts of the Bach corpus to make sure I eventually have all the important pieces but without excessive doubling and quadrupling and I am of course too lazy to type/format it all myself.
EDIT: I found a word file where I had put all the cantatas in a table and already entered some of my recordings!
I still would appreciate if someone had a similar table for the organ works
Quote from: karlhenning on November 30, 2015, 09:41:47 AM
Very much enjoyed this one, Jens.
+1 ... very interesting article,
Jens!
Cross-posted from the "Putchases Today" thread:
Quote from: ritter on December 19, 2015, 04:45:05 AM
...
I very much enjoyed Zhu Xiao-Mei playing the Goldberg variations at the Thomsakirche in Leipzig (recenly aired by the CLASSICA channel), and some days later our friend Jens included her rendition of the WTC in his very interesting article about "The Real Top Bach Recordings" (here (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/11/25/the-real-top-10-bach-recordings/)), so this was an easy trigger to pull (at 19 € from AmSp):
[asin]B00DY72GC6[/asin]
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYdHkgMWEAEfjba.jpg:large)
J.S.Bach
Complete Organ Works
A.Isoir
La dolce Volta (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00N1ZHWJ8/goodmusicguide-20)
Perhaps my favorite French set of Bach organ works.
In Peter Wispelwey's third recording of Bach's suites there's a documentary featuring Wispelwey (W), Laurence Dreyfus (D), John Butt (B) and Kees Boeke (K). A large part of it looks at issues to do with instruments, technique and dance. But some of it is about what Bach was trying to achieve with his music. Here are my notes.
Bach and his music
Bach was unconventional and eccentric . . . who didn't care about whether he was breaking rules. (W)
Contemporaries described his music as unnatural, even in writing. This was a very strong term, used of pederasts. He is deliberately working against all the compositional categories of good taste (which were codified in Germany.) (D)
The cello suites
I bet he wrote the first three cello suites in one go, and then he worried about the order of the last three a lot. It's typical of Bach's sets of six that the first three should be conventional and the last three less so. (B)
Bach starts off normal – 1,2 3 are understandable cello music; then 4 in an awkward key; 5 is seriously dark, the sarabande's a graveyard; in 6 everything starts to jubilate (W)
They are written for three different instruments, the 5th with a top g scordatura and the 6th for a 5 string cello. (D)
Some of what Butt says I really don't understand, about the incompleteness of the dances in Bach's suites.
Six Works, Two Very Different Approaches - Jan Vogler and Pieter Wispelwey revisit the considerable challenges of Bach’s Six Solo Cello Suites (September '13) (http://www.allthingsstrings.com/layout/set/print/News/Interviews-Profiles/Six-Works-Two-Very-Different-Approaches)
(http://www.cph.org/images/Product/large/991255.jpg)
Does anyone know if this contains translations in English of Bach's marginalia? It appears to be still in print here
http://www.cph.org/p-6234-j-s-bach-and-scripture-glosses-from-the-calov-bible-commentary.aspx
Quote from: Mandryka on February 07, 2016, 03:50:53 AM
(http://www.cph.org/images/Product/large/991255.jpg)
Does anyone know if this contains translations in English of Bach's marginalia? It appears to be still in print here
http://www.cph.org/p-6234-j-s-bach-and-scripture-glosses-from-the-calov-bible-commentary.aspx
It does, but their cost of shipping is too steep for me.
Latest on Forbes.com:
Classical CD Of The Week: Bach for Solo Soprano (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/03/23/classical-cd-of-the-week-bach-for-solo-soprano/#120b34ce6c50)
Johann Sebastian Bach, Cantatas for Solo-Soprano, Dorothee Mields / L'Orfeo Baroque Orchestra / Michi Gaigg, Carus
...This is arguably the weaker part of the recording at hand (Suzuki presents all 12 strophes, which even Carolyn Sampson, a rare singer I cherish just as much as Mields, can only just about make bearable), but in a way that speaks to the disc's strength rather than any weakness...
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2016/03/Forbes_Classica-CD-of-the-Week_Carus_Bach_Mields_Cantatas1200-1200x469.jpg)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/03/23/classical-cd-of-the-week-bach-for-solo-soprano/#120b34ce6c50 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/03/23/classical-cd-of-the-week-bach-for-solo-soprano/#120b34ce6c50)
Latest on Forbes.com:
Bach At Home In Japan (http://onforb.es/1r9rDZy)
Where resides the best Bach Orchestra and Chorus in the world? Leipzig? Berlin?
Germany at least? Amsterdam – where the great Bach tradition still lives on vibrantly?
London, where the early music movement attained its first heights? Maybe, but for
my money try Kobe, Japan[1]. Forgive for a second the hyperbole of "best": there
are other really, really fine ensembles that do Bach extremely proud. But the Bach
Collegium Japan (BCJ) and its founding director Masaaki Suzuki are are part of the
exclusive high-end of interpreters of the Leipzig's Master and need yield to no one in
the quality of their Bach performances....
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1NuvBriUsKs/VxSqdCipdHI/AAAAAAAAJEE/p28PSI4ZR98DnRAd6Mw3DqUGRWxCCnktACLcB/s1600/BACH_Collegium_Japan_Logo_laurson_Forbes-600.jpg)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/04/17/bach-at-home-in-japan (http://bit.ly/Bach-Collegium-Japan_Konzerthaus)
Latest on ionarts:
Ionarts-at-Large: The Vienna Symphony's B Minor Mass: Bach to Snooze To (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2016/04/ionarts-at-large-vienna-symphonys-b.html)
The Vienna Symphony Orchestra under Philippe Jordan has taken on the sensible, laudable,
wonderful mission of adding Bach to its regularish fare. Last year they performed the St.
Matthew Passion.[1] Next season it will be the St. John Passion. And on March 19th, it was
the Mass in B minor at the Vienna Konzerthaus – part of the now defunct "Osterklang"
Festival of secular music associated with the Theater an der Wien (or rather: its Intendant,
Roland Geyer).
In short, this Karl Richter memorial performance was [a snoozer].
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-DX4_ve7EuZ4/UqB-_O57r4I/AAAAAAAAHWI/4SfdDkEziXY/s1600/KonzerthausGrosserSaal.png)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2016/04/ionarts-at-large-vienna-symphonys-b.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2016/04/ionarts-at-large-vienna-symphonys-b.html)
Update on ionarts:
A Survey of Bach Organ Cycles (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html)
Updated: 04/24/2016: André Isoir and and the Hänssler cycle have been put into chronological
order. The details of the organs used (on mouse-over, depending on your browser) are now included for
Koopman, Alain III, Weinberger, Foccroulle and (partly) Phillips....
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-thtV3npwdYY/UdP62-OpysI/AAAAAAAAGk4/s4r7zdpJuxs/s600/BACH_Portrait_original_laurson_600.jpg)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html)
From the topic:
Which Composer Would You Eliminate From History?By chance I came across this comment today in
Louis Vierne's autobiography: note the date! (My emphasis)
Quote"An event of considerable importance in our artistic development occurred at the beginning of October 1892... This was the discovery of Bach's chorale preludes. When I say 'discovery' the word is not an exaggeration... Widor was astonished that since his arrival at the Conservatoire no one had brought in one of the celebrated chorale preludes... I was acquainted with three of them, published in Braille... My classmates did not even know the names of the pieces... (Widor) spent the entire class time playing these pieces for us, and we were bowled over. The most overwhelming part of the giant's organ works was suddenly revealed to us. All of us played some chorale preludes...for the trimester examination, and the surprise of the jury* was no less than ours had been.... Ambroise Thomas (said) to Widor: 'What music! Why didn't I know that forty years ago? It ought to be the Gospel for all musicians, and organists in particular.' "
* Among the jurors one found
Theodore Dubois, Gabriel Pierne', and
Alexandre Guilmant.
This is quite interesting. Despite being in principle available in print (so I do mean Monteverdi or Vivaldi manuscript scores mouldering in some library) quite a bit of music was apparently not as widely known as one would think until the early/mid 20th century.
I think I have read that Rachmaninoff was surprised when in the 1920s or so he became aware of the fact that Schubert had written a bunch of piano sonatas. And at this time at least among concertgoers Bach as arranged by Liszt, Busoni or Rachmaninoff was very probably far better known than his original keyboard works.
Did the French really establish their late romantic organ "symphonies" with only minimal knowledge of Bach's organ music?
Quote from: Jo498 on June 10, 2016, 11:50:09 PM
This is quite interesting...
Did the French really establish their late romantic organ "symphonies" with only minimal knowledge of Bach's organ music?
The anecdote specifically refers to the chorale preludes, but the comment by
Ambroise Thomas implies that
Bach was not well known: on the other hand,
Widor is astonished that his colleagues at the conservatoire and its students do not know them.
Widor, at least, seems to have had a wider knowledge of
Bach's organ works.
(http://www.thestrad.com/strad/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/MenuhinBachCopy.jpg)
Yehudi Menuhin's marked-up copy of the Solo Violin Sonata no.2, on display currently in the exhibition on Menuhin at Royal Academy of Music in London (https://www.ram.ac.uk/museum/exhibition/yehudi-menuhin)
Latest on Forbes.com:
Making Music Visible: Peter Sellars' St John Passion From Berlin (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/06/21/making-music-visible-peter-sellars-st-john-passion-from-berlin/)
Is a staging of a Bach Passion necessary? Peter Sellars' 2014 production from
Berlin, since published on DVD and Blu-ray, vigorously affirms that: Yes! It
does seem necessary. Or at the very least it is very moving....
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2016/06/BACH_Berlin-Phil_Roderick-Williams_Mark-Padmore_closeup_St-John-Passion_laurson_1800-1200x446.jpg)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/06/21/making-music-visible-peter-sellars-st-john-passion-from-berlin/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/06/21/making-music-visible-peter-sellars-st-john-passion-from-berlin/)
Latest on Forbes:
Classical CD Of The Week: André Isoir's Art Of The Fugue
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2016/07/Forbes_Classica-CD-of-the-Week_LA-DOLCE-VOLTA_Bach-Art-of-the-Fugue_Andre_Isoire_laurson_1200-1200x469.jpg) (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/07/20/classical-cd-of-the-week-andre-isoirs-art-of-the-fugue/#83b634a293d5)
Andre Isoire died the day this was posted. May he rest in peace; I think of him with warm gratitude; he has brought me many hours of listening-joy!
Quote from: jlaurson on July 24, 2016, 02:47:13 AM
Latest on Forbes:
Classical CD Of The Week: André Isoir's Art Of The Fugue
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2016/07/Forbes_Classica-CD-of-the-Week_LA-DOLCE-VOLTA_Bach-Art-of-the-Fugue_Andre_Isoire_laurson_1200-1200x469.jpg) (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/07/20/classical-cd-of-the-week-andre-isoirs-art-of-the-fugue/#83b634a293d5)
Andre Isoire died the day this was posted. May he rest in peace; I think of him with warm gratitude; he has brought me many hours of listening-joy!
Thumbs up, Jens.
One of his finest recordings, IMHO.
R.I.P.
Sad news about Isoir, somehow I always assumed that he was much younger than Chapuis, but no. I appreciate him very much especially in Attaingnant and Guilain.
While this will always be my go-to set:
(http://s32.postimg.org/sgzijmq79/Alice_Harnoncourt.jpg)
After reading several smashing reviews of this edition, I decided to splurge.
The recorded sound is impeccable and the performances are first-rate.
Coming 18 years after the Naxos set by van Dael and van Asperen - which is very good - there is a very noticeable improvement in the recording.
I just wish the pretentious stock-posing that seems de rigueur these days would be discarded. :-X
(http://s32.postimg.org/q3qrk3qjp/New_Bach.jpg)
As usual, click images to enlarge.
^^^ Oh nice!
That Glossa set looks might fine. :)
(https://s31.postimg.org/ckg9rk2h7/Bach_Vinyl_LP.jpg)
Does anyone have this recording? I've never seen it before - striking cover. ç1968 ... I think. No date on sleeve.
Hansheinz Schneeberger, Eduard Müller – Sonatas For Violin And Harpsichord BWV 1014-1019.
Label: Nonesuch – HB-73017. Format: 2 × Vinyl, LP
Classical CD Of The Week: Bach Woman in Mad Men Times
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2016/08/Forbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_PROFIL-HAENSSLER_Bach_Sonatas-Partitas_Johanna-Martzy_Laurson_1200-1200x469.jpg)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/08/17/classical-cd-of-the-week-bach-woman-in-mad-men-times/#469a88611789 (http://bit.ly/CDoftheWeek025)
If I can coax someone into leaving a comment on any of the Forbes CD of the Week reviews, I've got a voucher for the Berlin Phil's Digital Concert Hall (alas valid for only 7 days from the first concert watched) to go their way.
Quote from: DSCH71 on September 11, 2016, 12:45:20 AM
Thanks for your response and the information about Ruzickova - by the way, you have helped me on a number of occasions so just wanted to say thanks for that! :)
I trawled the Bungalow thread but I wasn't able to get any more info on Ruzickova's recordings - it could be that the discussion you are remembering is even buried in this thread? (I admit I was a bit lazy and didn't read all of the thread before posting) so Ill poke around in this one a bit more later.
If I cant find any more info im happy to take one for the team and post some comments about the sound of the instrument(s) and suchlike after I purchase the set (I guess I was hoping to find out a bit more about this beforehand as the recordings seem to be quite old).
Haven't we, though? Especially her two different WTCs? Anyone remember?
Quote from: jlaurson on September 11, 2016, 01:06:22 AM
Haven't we, though? Especially her two different WTCs? Anyone remember?
The search function here is so poor it's not surprising that things get lost.
Anyway I haven't heard Ruzikova's Erato recordings so I can't comment.
This may come as a surprise to anyone who remembers me (the guy with nearly 100 B minor Masses), but there's a lot of Bach, including some major pieces, that I simply don't know or don't know well. I've recently begun addressing this.
I had music books in the 70s and tried to teach myself the inventions but they were pretty hard for a teenaged rockhead, though I did manage to learn a couple. I bought my first Bach recording around 1986 or so. I think I have one recording of the WTC (Book I presumably) that I never listen to and couldn't tell you whose. Schiff on the inventions, also rarely listened to. I thought I had all the solo violin works, but it's just one CD so maybe just the partitias, and also couldn't tell you who the performer was. (I live in one city, work in another where I have a small apartment so I can't check.) Never had any recordings of the Goldberg variations or solo cello works. Don't think I have the English or French suites, though I may have one of them on a disc that I bought for something else. You can probably see I'm not a huge fan of solo keyboard works or chamber music in general--nothing against them, but I'm just more likely to reach for something bigger. (Have always loved the violin and harpsichord sonatas though.)
But as I said, I've started exploring these famous but largely unknown-to-me works. I bought Gould's WTC1 last week, then last night made a sizable purchase of Ashkanazy's complete WTC (so yes, only on piano, but I'm not stopping there), Kremer's solo violin sonatas and partitias, Koopman's organ works, sonatas with viola da gamba and harpsichord, Schiff's Goldbergs and Viersen's solo cello suites. Choices were made largely based on what the store had.
Enjoying this journey through the undiscovered territory of a composer I know so well though his sacred music.
Classical CD Of The Week: Super-Added Goldberg Variations
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2016/11/Forbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_CAPRICCIO_Bach_Goldberg-Variations_Buxtehude-Capricciosa_Schornsheim_Laurson_1200-1200x469.jpg?width=960)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/11/16/classical-cd-of-the-week-super-added-goldberg-variations/#def2993547e1 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/11/16/classical-cd-of-the-week-super-added-goldberg-variations/)
Whoo!! The Buxtehude is the real deal, here, almost... that's how good it is.
Is there a dedicated thread Bach on modern piano? Couldn't find it....
So I'll post this here
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41pNCPL4m6L.jpg)
Overall, well done, about equal to Angela Hewitt's set (which I like greatly) in general quality.
VOID is his own label, set up when he could find no backing for the project (although he's also released a number of non Bach recordings on VOID as well).
ASIN is B0053HBKZO.
All I ever wanted for Christmas:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0eCjG1XUAABGHd.jpg)
NBA @BarenreiterUK St. John Passion in full score. Bingo... http://ift.tt/2hUwLzi (http://amzn.to/2hgl7Lh)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0i-iTSWIAAl8Oi.jpg)
#morninglistening to #Bach w/@akamus, @rias_kammerchor on @piasclassicsusa & @BarenreiterUK... http://ift.tt/2igR8V0 (http://amzn.to/2iv3rQZ)
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 24, 2016, 03:49:00 PM
Is there a dedicated thread Bach on modern piano? Couldn't find it....
So I'll post this here
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41pNCPL4m6L.jpg)
Ordered this and it arrived a few days ago. First impressions: I like it a lot.
What, no one stopped by here today to wish JSB a Happy Birthday?
let me do the overdue:
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 22, 2017, 06:20:28 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7hu0SeW0AAWbwq.jpg:large)
#morninglistening on #Bach's birthday w/@EnsPygmalion:http://a-fwd.to/35llT1f
Köthener Tra... http://ift.tt/2o4bX8f pic.twitter.com/FLPqlNouQb (http://a-fwd.to/35llT1f)
Happy Birthday my Dear Bach!
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 22, 2017, 11:31:27 AM
What, no one stopped by here today to wish JSB a Happy Birthday?
let me do the overdue:
Happy Birthday my Dear Bach!
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7kWH9oXwAAN7pP.jpg)
Latest Classical #CDoftheWeek on Forbes: #Birthday-Boy Bach & Cantata Diversity
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/03/22/classical-cd-of-the-week-birthday-boy-bach-cantata-diversity/#5224cfc13d15 ...
#JohannSebastianBach #Bach332 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/03/22/classical-cd-of-the-week-birthday-boy-bach-cantata-diversity/#5224cfc13d15)
Bach-chanalia!
Classical CD Of The Week: Johann Sebastian Clown
(https://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2017/04/Forbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_CARPENTER-All-you-need-is-BACH-SONY_Laurson_1200-1200x469.jpg?width=960)
http://bit.ly/CDoftheWeek054 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/04/13/classical-cd-of-the-week-johann-sebastian-clown/#79d94b8258c0)
Johann Sebastian Clown: For all those unafraid of garish colors, subwoofer-busting bass, and liberal applications of tremulant and celeste, this is the ticket!
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DDV-eVwXcAANo9R.jpg)
We all know who's the fastest mouse of all Mexico. But whose is the Fastest B-Minor Mass On Record?
Review @forbes: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/06/27/review-the-fastest-b-minor-mass-on-record/#52ba47292b2e ...
(https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/06/27/review-the-fastest-b-minor-mass-on-record/#58c8497a2b2e)
Firing Line with William F. Buckley Jr.: The Fight for Bach: Guest: Rosalyn Tureck
https://www.youtube.com/v/uyvuITxVgd4
Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier: Forget-Me-Nots And Intimations Of Mortality (Classical CD Of The Week)
(https://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2017/09/Forbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_BACH_Well-Tempered-Clavier_Ugorskaja_C-AVI_Laurson_960.jpg?width=960)
(https://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2017/09/Forbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_BACH_Well-Tempered-Clavier_Schlueter_Haenssler_Laurson_960-1.jpg?width=960)
(https://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2017/09/Forbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_BACH_Well-Tempered-Clavier_ROUSSET_APARTE_Laurson_960-1.jpg?width=960) (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/10/11/bachs-well-tempered-clavier-forget-me-nots-and-intimations-of-mortality-classical-cd-of-the-week/#467b693649c3)
And Eff the "(C?)Avi" label for not being able to make its mind up about how they should be called or spelled. What a nuisance and what a moronic strategy to be ambiguous about one's name.
I thought Dantone's was a characterful interpretation of Book 2, more so than Rousset's in fact. I don't mean this as a value judgement at all. What are the contradictions that Zhu Xiao Mei's meddles?
How did you chose those recordings to review?
Your website keeps crashing on my iPad, other websites don't.
Quote from: Mandryka on October 11, 2017, 08:49:12 PM
Your website keeps crashing on my iPad, other websites don't.
That's a pity; not
my website, of course, but it would probably be much appreciated if you made Forbes aware of that problem at feedback@forbes.com. Sounds annoying.
Quote from: Mandryka on October 11, 2017, 08:49:12 PM
I thought Dantone's was a characterful interpretation of Book 2, more so than Rousset's in fact.
I've not listened to Dantone a whole lot; enough to like it a lot, though. [Thanks, Qobuz!] Less forced and with a bit more air than Rousset, probably... whose WTC is very peated, if you will.
Quote from: Mandryka on October 11, 2017, 08:49:12 PM
What are the contradictions that Zhu Xiao Mei's melds?
Math and Joy. Seriousness and ecstasy. Day and Night. Her's an interpretation that either seems to defy simple tagging or allows to concurrently associate either end of the emotional spectrum. It's not scientific, I'm afraid. But it's my instinctive reaction to it.
Quote from: Mandryka on October 11, 2017, 08:49:12 PM
How did you choose those recordings to review?
I pulled them off my shelf, basically... The two on the piano are recent recordings; one I had reviewed for a German magazine... they seemed to offer a nice contrast. And I wanted to write about Rousset, so I wedged him into this. Also to make sure that there's no danger of associating these works with the piano, too much. :-\
latest on Forbes. The surprise being J.Pregardien for me; I have had mostly bad experiences with him in concert, but here, he's more than fine.
Classical CD Of The Week: A Bavarian Hybrid St. John Passion With Peter Dijkstra
(https://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2017/10/Forbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_BACH_JOHN-PASSION_Dijkstra_BR-Chorus_BR-KLASSIK_Laurson_960-1200x469.jpg?width=960)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/11/15/classical-cd-of-the-week-a-bavarian-hybrid-st-john-passion-with-peter-dijkstra/ (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/11/15/classical-cd-of-the-week-a-bavarian-hybrid-st-john-passion-with-peter-dijkstra/)
On Bach's 333rd Birthday:
Classical CD Of The Week: Anton Batagov's Bach Is For Tripping
(https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/960x0/smart/https%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Fjenslaurson%2Ffiles%2F2018%2F02%2FForbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_BACH_PARTITAS_BATAGOV_MELODIYA_Classical-Critic-Jens-F-Laurson-960_.jpg) (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/03/21/classical-cd-of-the-week-anton-batagovs-bach-is-for-tripping/#4e7c39192767)
Every click helps keeping classical music coverage (of which I am sadly the only exponent) alive on Forbes.com. Which, even if you don't like it much or think me an ass, is better than it not being there, right?
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 21, 2018, 11:24:34 AM
On Bach's 333rd Birthday:
Classical CD Of The Week: Anton Batagov's Bach Is For Tripping
(https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/960x0/smart/https%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Fjenslaurson%2Ffiles%2F2018%2F02%2FForbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_BACH_PARTITAS_BATAGOV_MELODIYA_Classical-Critic-Jens-F-Laurson-960_.jpg) (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/03/21/classical-cd-of-the-week-anton-batagovs-bach-is-for-tripping/#4e7c39192767)
Every click helps keeping classical music coverage (of which I am sadly the only exponent) alive on Forbes.com. Which, even if you don't like it much or think me an ass, is better than it not being there, right?
Zowie.
Although extremely slow, I've been enjoying Batagov's take on the Partitas. It's not a version to hear when you feel full of energy.
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 21, 2018, 11:24:34 AM
On Bach's 333rd Birthday:
Classical CD Of The Week: Anton Batagov's Bach Is For Tripping
(https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/960x0/smart/https%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Fjenslaurson%2Ffiles%2F2018%2F02%2FForbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_BACH_PARTITAS_BATAGOV_MELODIYA_Classical-Critic-Jens-F-Laurson-960_.jpg) (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/03/21/classical-cd-of-the-week-anton-batagovs-bach-is-for-tripping/#4e7c39192767)
Every click helps keeping classical music coverage (of which I am sadly the only exponent) alive on Forbes.com. Which, even if you don't like it much or think me an ass, is better than it not being there, right?
Doesn't sound like my kind of Bach, but at least there are people to enjoy it.
Have started going through the Angela Hewitt recordings again and enjoyed her recording of the Partita number 1. I like that she generally plays the repeats of the tertiary movements differently, and I find she hits the sweet spot of using the dynamic capabilities of the piano to elucidate the music, without becoming too "romantic."
Quote from: Sammy on March 21, 2018, 01:21:59 PM
Although extremely slow, I've been enjoying Batagov's take on the Partitas. It's not a version to hear when you feel full of energy.
Me too; I liked what I've heard so far.
Quote from: Mahlerian on March 21, 2018, 01:27:17 PM
Doesn't sound like my kind of Bach, but at least there are people to enjoy it.
In a way it's beyond Bach. It's an experience; an immersion.
I heard Bach (Book I): Nos. 1-12 for the first time tonight. Quite an experience. Despite most of it being over my head it's still clear how monumental it is. And although a clichéd way to describe it, there were moments that sounded like the construction of a bridge that supports itself, bearing it's own weight, then slowly disassembling, only to take another approach. There are another four concerts in the series which I've already tickets for. Good stuff.
http://events.glasgowlife.org.uk/event/1/gusztv-feny-plays-the-complete-preludes-fugues-of-bach-and-shostakovich-15
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 21, 2018, 02:28:42 PM
In a way it's beyond Bach. It's an experience; an immersion.
For some time now, Batagov has been primarily an experimental composer and no doubt going "beyond Bach" is part and parcel of why he performed/recorded this music.
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 21, 2018, 11:24:34 AM
On Bach's 333rd Birthday:
The number 333 is known in some circles as 'triple nelson' and is considered (like any other multiple of 111) to be unlucky. The bad luck may be averted by standing on one leg.
I only mention this because some aspects of Bach's music are thought by some to have numerological significance. :-X
QuoteSouth Africa needed 111 runs to win at exactly 11:11 on the 11th day of the 11th month in 2011. The scoreboard read 11:11 11/11/11. Cricket South Africa asked all the fans in the crowd to stand on one leg for the duration of that minute and with the healthy Newlands crowd hopping about, umpire Ian Gould got into the spirit too.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/south-africa-v-australia-2011/content/story/540090.html (http://www.espncricinfo.com/south-africa-v-australia-2011/content/story/540090.html)
Quote from: Mahlerian on March 21, 2018, 01:27:17 PM
Doesn't sound like my kind of Bach, but at least there are people to enjoy it.
It must be "out there" . . . I am curious, but my curiosity does not burn 0:)
Quote from: Sammy on March 21, 2018, 01:21:59 PM
Although extremely slow, I've been enjoying Batagov's take on the Partitas. It's not a version to hear when you feel full of energy.
Quote from: Marcabru on March 21, 2018, 02:23:36 PM
Me too; I liked what I've heard so far.
Get back to us in a week's time, when the music's finished :laugh:
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 22, 2018, 02:42:25 AM
It must be "out there" . . . I am curious, but my curiosity does not burn 0:)
I think his Byrd is much better. I couldn't stomach the Bach.
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on March 21, 2018, 01:42:30 PM
Have started going through the Angela Hewitt recordings again and enjoyed her recording of the Partita number 1. I like that she generally plays the repeats of the tertiary movements differently, and I find she hits the sweet spot of using the dynamic capabilities of the piano to elucidate the music, without becoming too "romantic."
Yes she has lots of ideas about dynamics, I'm guessing they're her ideas rather than taken from someone else's edition. Another thing that impressed me was how distinctively light her touch is. I think that the conception is very poised and classical, an interesting contrast with the more
empfindsamer stil approach of Wolfgang Rübsam.
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 28, 2018, 04:36:47 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Db3ixe8W0AA7KiR.jpg)
#morninglistening to #Bach's #StJohnPassion w/ #MarcMinkowski & @mdlgrenoble on @warnerclassics
: http://a-fwd.to/Tp2gPAY
(cheating on @naiveclassique w/ @eratofrance ???)
(http://a-fwd.to/Tp2gPAY)
Anyone get the feeling that this release was never properly marketed... that it kindof snuck up on us? It should have been a big deal... but wasn't. And it's odd that Erato licensed this, and not Naive... even though Minkowski has not become a Warner artist.
I know it's a bit silly, but this clip always makes me smile in celebration of the sheer joy of music-making.
https://www.youtube.com/v/9ep9wONkU2c
My last column for Forbes.com
Thanks everyone for your support by reading. It's been fun -- and the fun will soon be continued on Andante.com.tr (https://www.andante.com.tr/en/homepage)! (In English, nobody worry.)
(https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/960x0/https%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Fjenslaurson%2Ffiles%2F2018%2F03%2FForbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_BACH_Stiftung_Cantatas_No-22_Classical-Critic-Jens-F-Laurson-960_.jpg)
Classical CD Of The Week: From Switzerland With Bach - Cantatas To Grip You
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/06/06/classical-cd-of-the-week-from-switzerland-with-bach-cantatas-to-grip-you/#5bd97d6c40bf (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/06/06/classical-cd-of-the-week-from-switzerland-with-bach-cantatas-to-grip-you/#5bd97d6c40bf)
Bach 333 is coming..... ???
https://www.bach333.com/
https://www.amazon.de/Bach-333-Ltd-ed-222cd-1dvd/dp/B07D2Y539K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1532724128&sr=8-1&keywords=bach+333
https://www.youtube.com/v/leVs1daZU44
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81JheQNzYeL._SL1500_.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/811BGqwGbFL._SL1500_.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81IwMjYyBDL._SL1500_.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/810iUT2tY4L._SL1500_.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81EiIUuMGBL._SL1500_.jpg)
But who are the performers? That's the decisive point.
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 27, 2018, 02:24:10 PM
But who are the performers? That's the decisive point.
May I direct your eyes to the right of these columns? (Don't know your computer set-up; it may involve scrolling.)
Very interesting mix, esp. in the cantatas.
CD 181/182 catches my eye.
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on July 27, 2018, 11:59:35 PM
May I direct your eyes to the right of these columns? (Don't know your computer set-up; it may involve scrolling.)
Thanls, yes it did involve scrolling. :)
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 30, 2018, 03:19:59 AM
Thanls, yes it did involve scrolling. :)
I see, that I already own about 90 % of the recordings. And most of the rest don't interest me.
Alain I
Release date listed as 24 August
(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/t_300/erato9029563453.jpg?1531683469)
Quote from: JBS on August 22, 2018, 04:03:47 PM
Alain I
Release date listed as 24 August
(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/t_300/erato9029563453.jpg?1531683469)
Thanks for this alert! I see it just today the day of the release. :)
Now I'm listening to the organ trio sonatas on Tidal (FLAC, master quality 24/96 kHz Stereo). So far, wonderful sound quality and interpretation.
(https://d24jnm9llkb1ub.cloudfront.net/icpn/3770001902432/3770001902432-cover-zoom.jpg)
Not ashamed to admit I quite like this, piano and all.
St. Gallen's Lovely, Lively Bach Continues
(https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/41522458_10155981361192989_3941877785487736832_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=1efff72699c755ea1fdae75c7aeaa133&oe=5C22136C) (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/st-gallens-lovely-lively-bach-continues/)
Unexpected delight:
An Audiophile Bach-On-Guitar Delight
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dn2ep64WsAAU_Ap.jpg) (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/an-audiophile-bach-on-guitar-delight/)
Regarding the upcoming Bach 333 release. I came across a news item that indicates that there will be two language versions: English and German. Has anybody else heard anything that contradicts this information? I'm surprised that there isn't a French or Spanish version. Really?
"Bach 333 is released worldwide on October 26th in two language versions – English and German".
from https://www.bach333.com/en
So - obviously Bach 333 sold in the US and UK would be in English and the ones sold in Germany in German. I wonder which language version that is marketed in France? Hmmmmm
https://www.udiscovermusic.com/news/deutsche-grammophon-decca-bach-333/
How do people feel about the Rubsam violin and cello transcriptions for lautenwerk?
I don't much like the cello suites transcriptions - the polyphonic nature of the keyboard seems to work against the "single string polyphony" that is the essence of the Cello suites - everything sounds too obvious, too simple, no challenging blanks left for the brain to fill in.
The violin transcriptions seem much more successful to me because those works are by no means single-string. In fact the way he plays them turns the music on its head - arpeggiated effects on the keyboard replacing plain double-stopping on the violin.
Quote from: milk on October 29, 2018, 05:56:49 AM
How do people feel about the Rubsam violin and cello transcriptions for lautenwerk?
I love Rubsam and his lautenwerk recordings, but the Cello Suites are too perfect to allow any transcription to invade my ears.
Yes I know what aukhawk is getting at in the cello suites. You'll get a good feel for the problem if you listen to the prelude of the 6th, it's as if there's not enough for his left hand to do.
Nevertheless what he's done is charming enough I think.
Quote from: Mandryka on October 29, 2018, 09:15:04 AM
Yes I know what aukhawk is getting at in the cello suites. You'll get a good feel for the problem if you listen to the prelude of the 6th, it's as if there's not enough for his left hand to do.
Nevertheless what he's done is charming enough I think.
I can never get enough Bach but, as with the organ transcriptions for piano, it's sometimes a matter of "be careful what one wishes for."
Here ya go!
http://www.youtube.com/v/eDFFUIGoBUc
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 30, 2018, 01:36:12 AM
Here ya go!
http://www.youtube.com/v/eDFFUIGoBUc
It's not bad at all. I don't know if you know American TV but, mark my words, this music will show up in some future episode of Fargo.
It is very good, indeed.
I do not know American TV (by choice) . . . and it may be overly fastidious of me, but my enjoyment of the movies Twelve Monkeys and Fargo leaves me rather incurious about TV series spin-offs . . . .
Parenthetically: Much of what I enjoy about M*A*S*H (the movie) is the tone. I understand that the TV series is widely loved, but personally, M*A*S*H with a laugh track feels all wrong, to this viewer.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 30, 2018, 03:30:45 AM
It is very good, indeed.
I do not know American TV (by choice) . . . and it may be overly fastidious of me, but my enjoyment of the movies Twelve Monkeys and Fargo leaves me rather incurious about TV series spin-offs . . . .
Parenthetically: Much of what I enjoy about M*A*S*H (the movie) is the tone. I understand that the TV series is widely loved, but personally, M*A*S*H with a laugh track feels all wrong, to this viewer.
Fargo is clever. It's not really a spin-off per se. It's hard to explain but the runner is an excellent writer and he makes a kind of genre out of Fargo with no characters from the films. This music is the kind of thing that pops up on the series' soundtrack. It should at least.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/23/arts/music/pop-up-bach-store.html
CD From Hell: Peter Gregson Banalizes Bach
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DxYd8YFX0AISUyb.jpg)
(https://www.classicstoday.com/review/cd-from-hell-peter-gregson-banalizes-bach/)
Sigiswald Kuijken's Zany Bach of Wonders Boxed
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DxcY7ytWoAA7N4X.jpg) (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/sigiswald-kuijkens-zany-bach-of-wonders-boxed/)
[insider content]
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 21, 2019, 06:54:47 AM
Sigiswald Kuijken's Zany Bach of Wonders Boxed
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DxcY7ytWoAA7N4X.jpg) (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/sigiswald-kuijkens-zany-bach-of-wonders-boxed/)
[insider content]
I love those recordings.
Don't know where else to post this, but it might be of interest to several Bach-nutty GMGers:
The best thing in published scores in my lifetime, the new 23 vol #CarusVerlag ed. of the complete sacred vocal works, is on sale for only a little longer:
https://www.carus-verlag.com/en/composers/bach/cantatas/all-bach-cantatas/johann-sebastian-bach-the-sacred-vocal-music.html?&force_sid=97a962444334c920bdcdf34a121e80c8 ...
(By the time I will have written about it, the steep discount is going to be history, alas.)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DxhqSjAWsAYUROF.jpg)
One of my more cherished memories is having gone over parts of it (the Matthew Passion, primarily) with the much-missed, late Enoch zu Guttenberg, comparing it to his 50-year old score (with all its countless markings and scribblings).
Latest interview on "Church and Culture" is all about Bach!
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D10R5SvXcAAYqAQ.jpg)
https://t.co/m6jBvZSoD1 (https://t.co/m6jBvZSoD1)
First half about transcriptions, second about the Matthew Passion -- all about why Bach is the Alpha and Omega... and tried to squeeze in a tribute to the beloved and much missed Enoch zu Guttenberg.
Apologies - to anyone who might actually listen - about the bad SQ. Don't know why that is myself... trying to make them work on it.
Bach is the Google Doodle of the day. Brilliant!
https://www.google.com/doodles/celebrating-johann-sebastian-bach
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 21, 2019, 05:54:07 AM
Bach is the Google Doodle of the day. Brilliant!
https://www.google.com/doodles/celebrating-johann-sebastian-bach
With some reasonably nice results one can get: https://g.co/doodle/aajb6t (https://g.co/doodle/aajb6t)
Latest in the US Catholic Herald: Protestant Bach!
(https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/1113824128635691010/9ygzhMe8?format=jpg&name=600x314)
'Truly this was the Son of God' (https://catholicherald.co.uk/magazine/truly-this-was-the-son-of-god/)
(not my headline, but hey...)
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 04, 2019, 11:26:03 AM
Latest in the US Catholic Herald: Protestant Bach!
(https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/1113824128635691010/9ygzhMe8?format=jpg&name=600x314)
'Truly this was the Son of God' (https://catholicherald.co.uk/magazine/truly-this-was-the-son-of-god/)
(not my headline, but hey...)
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 04, 2019, 11:23:03 AM
GSMoeller: FYI here's the essay about it (though maybe not with much new material re: the performance) that I promised. Was published earlier today: https://catholicherald.co.uk/magazine/truly-this-was-the-son-of-god/ (https://catholicherald.co.uk/magazine/truly-this-was-the-son-of-god/)
Thank you so much for sharing,
Jens! It's truly a lovely essay.
I just received my new copy of this
Passion the other day, and plan to start listening tonight. I've made some markings in the booklet to listen for sections you've focused on in both the linked article above, and from your
Real Top 10 Bach Recordings, I'm not familiar enough with this piece to know when the "Barabas" cry is, where in this piece will I find this?
The CD booklet does mark each track with the corresponding score sections. And I currently have
O Haupt voll Blut und Wunden, and
Wahrlich, dieser ist Gottes Sohn gewesen marked, which are sections you have so eloquently written about with this performance.
Thanks again,
Jens, I'm sure I'll write more later once I've begun my journey.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 04, 2019, 05:10:31 PM
Thank you so much for sharing, Jens! It's truly a lovely essay.
I just received my new copy of this Passion the other day, and plan to start listening tonight. I've made some markings in the booklet to listen for sections you've focused on in both the linked article above, and from your Real Top 10 Bach Recordings, I'm not familiar enough with this piece to know when the "Barabas" cry is, where in this piece will I find this?
At the end of 45(a).
Cheers & thanks for the kind words.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D3qMlf3WAAAr5Uy.jpg)
Rachel Podger Plays Bach's—Wait For It—Cello Suites! (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/rachel-podger-plays-bachs-wait-for-it-cello-suites/)
Quote from: Jens review
On her terms, she succeeds terrifically. But something is missing. I have a feeling it is the effort, actually.
Without having listened to it (yet) - that is exactly what I would expect.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/A1OdiWnemVL._SS500_.jpg)
Thoughts anyone?
Quote from: milk on April 12, 2019, 03:38:50 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/A1OdiWnemVL._SS500_.jpg)
Thoughts anyone?
Fray's good. Capucon's not bad.
Quote from: Mandryka on April 12, 2019, 04:15:52 AM
Fray's good. Capucon's not bad.
If you ever get a chance, there's Nicolas Dautricourt and Juho Pohjonen. I'd be interested in your thoughts by comparison. I forget which one is the violinist but I think the violin is a bit more assured and the recordings is more energetic. But I have to get to headphones to really compare. I love Fray's past Bach recordings.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/515HgH1q95L._SX355_.jpg)
This is my favorite recording of these pieces. I'm listening to this and thinking the baroque violin sounds infinitely better than recordings with modern violin.
Quote from: milk on April 14, 2019, 05:45:13 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/515HgH1q95L._SX355_.jpg)
This is my favorite recording of these pieces. I'm listening to this and thinking the baroque violin sounds infinitely better than recordings with modern violin.
Your comment sparked my interest, then I saw that on amazon it has only one review, which is disparaging in a way that tends to make be think the recording is very good. Alas, seems to be out-of-print and sporadically available an unattractive prices.
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on April 15, 2019, 08:25:33 AM
Your comment sparked my interest, then I saw that on amazon it has only one review, which is disparaging in a way that tends to make be think the recording is very good. Alas, seems to be out-of-print and sporadically available an unattractive prices.
I can understand why people might prefer different Baroque recordings. I don't agree with the Amazon comment about intonation. But, the violinist is a bit "atmospheric" I think. Maybe people prefer very muscular-sounding violin work. Mangoire is like a soft pillow surround song the harpsichord. But she's not brittle the way the modern violinists are - to me - that brittle squeaky modern violin with the anxious sounding vibrato mars the rustic beauty of these works IMO. I guess there are some great alternatives with baroque violin that take these pieces in a different direction.
Quote from: milk on April 15, 2019, 03:29:13 PM
I can understand why people might prefer different Baroque recordings. I don't agree with the Amazon comment about intonation. But, the violinist is a bit "atmospheric" I think. Maybe people prefer very muscular-sounding violin work. Mangoire is like a soft pillow surround song the harpsichord. But she's not brittle the way the modern violinists are - to me - that brittle squeaky modern violin with the anxious sounding vibrato mars the rustic beauty of these works IMO. I guess there are some great alternatives with baroque violin that take these pieces in a different direction.
As soon as I see a criticism of intonation I immediately assume the referee is an ignoramus. :) Your description of the violin sound is very attractive. I was hoping to find a lossless download of the recordings but I've not come across one yet.
Quote from: milk on April 14, 2019, 05:45:13 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/515HgH1q95L._SX355_.jpg)
This is my favorite recording of these pieces. I'm listening to this and thinking the baroque violin sounds infinitely better than recordings with modern violin.
My favourite as well.... :)
(Alongside the older, more introvert Kuiken/Leonhardt recording).
Q
Quote from: Que on April 15, 2019, 09:23:00 PM
My favourite as well.... :)
(Alongside the older, more introvert Kuiken/Leonhardt recording).
Q
I should try that. I have a bunch of these like Elizabeth Blumenstock & John Butt and Podger/Pinnock, etc. But get stuck on the Rannou/Malgoire - I love it so much. I'm not sure if Malgoire has recorded much else as a primary. I have to check.
Sorry I couldn't help but noticing Bach only has 29 pages on this thread. How is that possible?
If you like Malgoire be sure to try this, which for me was a bit of an eye opener
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81pOSfVjZJL._SS500_.jpg)
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on April 15, 2019, 08:25:33 AM
Your comment sparked my interest, then I saw that on amazon it has only one review, which is disparaging in a way that tends to make be think the recording is very good. Alas, seems to be out-of-print and sporadically available an unattractive prices.
I've never heard this one and I'm hoping that someone will kindly upload it for me . . . however your comment made me think of this very nice recording which received a gloriously disparaging review in Gramaphone
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51HXWVjuyGL._SX355_.jpg)
QuoteMusical sea-sickness pervades this curious recording of Bach's mesmerising gamba sonatas. The opening bars augur well with the plangent reticence of the Adagio of the G major Sonata but after that Guido Balestracci enters into a musical rhetoric of striking incoherence. It revolves around a policy of pulling up – even stopping – at cadences, a mannerism which bafflingly truncates the phrasing and, at worst, does so when the musical logic suggests otherwise. Blandine Rannou soldiers on but the harpsichord is already so recessed as to establish her role as assuredly supporting.
There are a few moments of relieving ordinariness (such as in the gentle sequencing of the Trio, BWV528) but the great G minor Sonata – a kind of implied concerto – continues to harness the wrong points of interest; rather as in a fine monologue, the sense is distorted by an actor who fails to distinguish between poetic moment and syntactical necessity. The first movement gets slower and more ponderous as the cadences again become the catalyst for needless fragmentation.
The D major Sonata comes out least affected and there is the occasional moment of plausible phrasing, but throughout the gamba sounds decidedly short of the body, colour, bite and personality (odd, given how unrelentingly close is the sound) to convey these remarkable works with the eloquence they deserve. For all the natural facility, severe misjudgement underpins this disappointment.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 16, 2019, 08:11:05 AM
Sorry I couldn't help but noticing Bach only has 29 pages on this thread. How is that possible?
Start posting, then!
:)
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 16, 2019, 08:11:05 AM
Sorry I couldn't help but noticing Bach only has 29 pages on this thread. How is that possible?
There are many other threads for more specific subsets of Bach's music. Considerate posters write in the more specialized threads that are more focussed.
Didn't you see what I was responding to? I was mainly offering an explanation why this thread is fairly "short".
I don't think I ever bothered anyone by "moderating" and complaining that s/he was posting in the wrong thread (although I do think that it is a disservice to the usability of the forum).
Not even complained about you posting the same link to your often paywalled reviews in up to three parallel threads...
Quote from: Mandryka on April 16, 2019, 08:13:20 AM
If you like Malgoire be sure to try this, which for me was a bit of an eye opener
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81pOSfVjZJL._SS500_.jpg)
Oh great! Thanks I'm really looking forward to it!
Quote from: Mandryka on April 16, 2019, 08:49:07 AM
I've never heard this one and I'm hoping that someone will kindly upload it for me . . . however your comment made me think of this very nice recording which received a gloriously disparaging review in Gramaphone
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51HXWVjuyGL._SX355_.jpg)
This Gramaphone review is hilarious. I've got to hear this!
I've found the gamba sonatas can be downloaded individually
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51HXWVjuyGL._SX355_.jpg)
From a box set on Prestoclassical.
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8047746--bach-sons
Anyone know of a place where a lossless download of the violin sonatas can be found
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/515HgH1q95L._SX355_.jpg)
The box set contains recordings of the violin sonatas by a different pair of performers.
Quote from: Jo498 on April 17, 2019, 12:42:24 AM
Didn't you see what I was responding to? I was mainly offering an explanation why this thread is fairly "short".
I don't think I ever bothered anyone by "moderating" and complaining that s/he was posting in the wrong thread (although I do think that it is a disservice to the usability of the forum).
Then I mis-understood your post even more than I thought. Sorry.
I suspect that with Bach he is so well recorded that everyone has managed to find 'their' Bach. A lot of the threads here are lamenting the lack of recordings, or pointing out the flaws in the few recordings available, of one composer or another.
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on April 17, 2019, 01:21:16 PM
I suspect that with Bach he is so well recorded that everyone has managed to find 'their' Bach. A lot of the threads here are lamenting the lack of recordings, or pointing out the flaws in the few recordings available, of one composer or another.
Maybe, my theory is the "classical music" as we know is dominated by Austrian/German composers of the Romantic and post-Romantic era. Look at how many pages in the Bruckner and Mahler threads.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 17, 2019, 02:13:50 PM
Maybe, my theory is the "classical music" as we know is dominated by Austrian/German composers of the Romantic and post-Romantic era. Look at how many pages in the Bruckner and Mahler threads.
That doesn't explain the huge relative size of the Brian thread.
It is just that Bach discussion doesn't typically end up in the Bach thread. It doesn't collect the hundreds or thousands of posts in which people report on their 50th recording of the WTC or 100th recording of the unaccompanied cello suites, or their rage that someone did (or didn't) use vibrato, a male alto, a harpsichord, in performance of a certain work.
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on April 17, 2019, 02:41:18 PM
That doesn't explain the huge relative size of the Brian thread.
"Freak" composers like Brian defy explanation. You add up all the Brian recordings ever made and they probably don't add up to 1/2 the number of WTCs. But people are drawn to the Brian phenomenon - a largely self taught working class individual who wrote most of his work in his 80's and 90's.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 17, 2019, 02:13:50 PM
Maybe, my theory is the "classical music" as we know is dominated by Austrian/German composers of the Romantic and post-Romantic era. Look at how many pages in the Bruckner and Mahler threads.
I am too lazy to count but have you added up all the Bach threads in the forum? This here is only the "general" one but there are large ones for organ, keyboard, "instrumental" works and even more.
The claim the Bach is not also dominating "classical music as we know it" seems rather outlandish to me. Bruckner and Mahler are not niches anymore, but they are in my impression overrepresented in online discussions because the number of recordings "exploded" in the last 3 decades or so (whereas Bach has been huge since the 50s and 60s) and they are also something of "orchestral spectacular" and maybe therefore overrepresented among technology and online-savy young to middle aged men.
Also, unlike Brian (I don't think I have ever heard a piece by him) or even Vaughan Williams (who has one huge thread, but only one) Bach is often "taken for granted", so fewer people feel the need to evangelize. ;)
Quote from: milk on April 14, 2019, 05:45:13 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/515HgH1q95L._SX355_.jpg)
This is my favorite recording of these pieces. I'm listening to this and thinking the baroque violin sounds infinitely better than recordings with modern violin.
I've heard a couple of sonatas from this set now. I want to say something that I'm feeling, maybe mistakenly -- they're not responding to each other, they don't give the impression of listening to each other and making music together. It's like they just played their parts separately and then the tapes were overlaid (I'm sure that's not what happened but . . . )
I also suspect that the sonatas aren't as differentiated as much as I like, I mean in terms of feeling. There's more and more known about the sort of feeling associated with the keys of these sonatas which give a strong clue as to how they can be expressed, I'm not convinced they've really thought about this.
Unfortunately I think that both these aspects are really essential to getting the best from the music.
I'll persist with the set but I wanted to post this in case someone felt strongly that I was on the wrong or right track.
But having said that the duo movements of 1019 are rather good!
Quote from: Mandryka on April 20, 2019, 05:44:06 AM
I've heard a couple of sonatas from this set now. I want to say something that I'm feeling, maybe mistakenly -- they're not responding to each other, they don't give the impression of listening to each other and making music together. It's like they just played their parts separately and then the tapes were overlaid (I'm sure that's not what happened but . . . )
I also suspect that the sonatas aren't as differentiated as much as I like, I mean in terms of feeling. There's more and more known about the sort of feeling associated with the keys of these sonatas which give a strong clue as to how they can be expressed, I'm not convinced they've really thought about this.
Unfortunately I think that both these aspects are really essential to getting the best from the music.
I'll persist with the set but I wanted to post this in case someone felt strongly that I was on the wrong or right track.
I guess I like the intimacy of this set. I can't say I love/understand violin music generally however I like Malgoire's touch. But I don't know how to describe exactly what it is that I like about the way Malgoire plays. What do you suggest to compare it to? I have a few sets but maybe I should try something else. I realize tonight that I don't like Dantone/Mullova which seems stuffy to me. But I remember Don Satz recommending Blumenstock/Butt and I can hear why for that one at least. I think they have that interaction you mention. I was also trying to compare Podger-Pinnock but I don't know what I think.
ETA: I really wanted to try a couple of these tonight. I first listened to a bit of Faust/Bezuidenhout but couldn't get past the sound of this recording. It seems muddy to me and I think they may just lack serendipity for this try. Giuliano Carmignola is rewarding I think. But it's maybe a virtuoso type thing which has its downside. I wonder who else has the rustic beauty of Malgoire but perhaps is a little more polished as a duo?
Here's a candidate:
(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/t_300/3760014190605.jpg?1498491123)
I'll tell you what, there's one that I really like, every time I go back to it I find myself liking it more and more, it's Guido de Neve and Frank Agsteribbe.
(https://www.etcetera-records.com/media/filer_public_thumbnails/filer_public/35/72/35721cc7-5d9f-4123-9d53-352f61ea7c9a/ktc_1596.jpg__1080x980_q85_crop_subsampling-2.jpg)
But violin is, I think, a very personal thing, one man's meat is another man's poison.
Quote from: Mandryka on April 22, 2019, 02:54:38 AM
I'll tell you what, there's one that I really like, every time I go back to it I find myself liking it more and more, it's Guido de Neve and Frank Agsteribbe.
(https://www.etcetera-records.com/media/filer_public_thumbnails/filer_public/35/72/35721cc7-5d9f-4123-9d53-352f61ea7c9a/ktc_1596.jpg__1080x980_q85_crop_subsampling-2.jpg)
But violin is, I think, a very personal thing, one man's meat is another man's poison.
Why did I know it would be something hard to find! ;D
Quote from: milk on April 22, 2019, 02:58:23 AM
Why did I know it would be something hard to find! ;D
Really? It only came out last year or maybe the year before! Surely it can't be deleted already?
Quote from: Mandryka on April 22, 2019, 03:16:34 AM
Really? It only came out last year or maybe the year before! Surely it can't be deleted already?
I will search more! Another ETA: I see the magic in this from what's posted on youtube. Unfortunately, not available on any streaming services or iTunes. It's not even physically on Amazon.com.
Anyway, almost all the other sets I'm sampling go for big and grand. Or maybe it's reverberant and lyrical. I'm looking for the few sets out there, like Malgoire, that are going for intimacy and recorded dryly. Do most violinists prefer a very wet sound?
Quote from: milk on April 22, 2019, 03:49:24 AM
I will search more! Another ETA: I see the magic in this from what's posted on youtube. Unfortunately, not available on any streaming services or iTunes. It's not even physically on Amazon.com.
Anyway, almost all the other sets I'm sampling go for big and grand. Or maybe it's reverberant and lyrical. I'm looking for the few sets out there, like Malgoire, that are going for intimacy and recorded dryly. Do most violinists prefer a very wet sound?
Here, you have to use the ASIN B06XPNWN1F or you have to use the rather appropriate CD title "Music Of Flesh & Blood"
https://www.amazon.com/Music-Flesh-Blood-J-BACH/dp/B06XPNWN1F
Or download it in good mp3 from here
https://play.google.com/store/music/album?id=Bt56wv525cgzxehl66o34qzbjeu&tid=song-Tu45dndzco6a5fixckbmjwogk5e
The idea of the interpretation is that the key signatures reveal the intended affects of the music; and for me this was a bit of a revelation, because it brought a new dimension of variety.
Quote from: milk on April 22, 2019, 03:49:24 AM
I will search more! Another ETA: I see the magic in this from what's posted on youtube. Unfortunately, not available on any streaming services or iTunes. It's not even physically on Amazon.com.
Anyway, almost all the other sets I'm sampling go for big and grand. Or maybe it's reverberant and lyrical. I'm looking for the few sets out there, like Malgoire, that are going for intimacy and recorded dryly. Do most violinists prefer a very wet sound?
Have you heard van Dael and Van Asperen?
Quote from: Mandryka on April 22, 2019, 09:20:49 AM
Have you heard van Dael and Van Asperen?
I listened a little but not enough. Honestly, your recommendation jumped out as special.
Quote from: Mandryka on April 22, 2019, 04:50:20 AM
Here, you have to use the ASIN B06XPNWN1F or you have to use the rather appropriate CD title "Music Of Flesh & Blood"
https://www.amazon.com/Music-Flesh-Blood-J-BACH/dp/B06XPNWN1F
Or download it in good mp3 from here
https://play.google.com/store/music/album?id=Bt56wv525cgzxehl66o34qzbjeu&tid=song-Tu45dndzco6a5fixckbmjwogk5e
The idea of the interpretation is that the key signatures reveal the intended affects of the music; and for me this was a bit of a revelation, because it brought a new dimension of variety.
I'm downloading this now. With this type of repertoire, I might be too influenced by the way they choose to record and mix it. I wonder if anyone else feels like they're prejudiced by the decisions in the studio. So, with the Asperen set, I need to get over something. But the one you recommended, performers I really don't know, I like something about the way it sounds first. Thanks for pointing me to where to download.
Quote from: milk on April 23, 2019, 01:38:40 AM
I listened a little but not enough. Honestly, your recommendation jumped out as special.
I'm downloading this now. With this type of repertoire, I might be too influenced by the way they choose to record and mix it. I wonder if anyone else feels like they're prejudiced by the decisions in the studio. So, with the Asperen set, I need to get over something. But the one you recommended, performers I really don't know, I like something about the way it sounds first. Thanks for pointing me to where to download.
I listened to Dael/Asperen again last night, on reflection it's not what you're after. I also listened to some Neve/Agstreribbe and I think it may well be right for you. The record mixing is much like where you sit in a concert isn't it? If you look back over discussions about these sonatas there's been a lot of concern about balance, in particular the violin not drowning out the keyboard. And yes, that's a thing to think about. But there are many other things too: interaction especially, and expression of course.
In a way Neve/Agsteribbe is like an introverted thoughtful version of Häkkinen/Höbarth -- I couldn't stand the latter, and it gives me the heebie jeebies just thinking about it -- it's like having a fat sweaty Italian opera singer emote forcefully in your living room.
Quote from: Mandryka on April 23, 2019, 02:34:39 AM
I listened to Dael/Asperen again last night, on reflection it's not what you're after. I also listened to some Neve/Agstreribbe and I think it may well be right for you. The record mixing is much like where you sit in a concert isn't it? If you look back over discussions about these sonatas there's been a lot of concern about balance, in particular the violin not drowning out the keyboard. And yes, that's a thing to think about. But there are many other things too: interaction especially, and expression of course.
In a way Neve/Agsteribbe is like an introverted thoughtful version of Häkkinen/Höbarth -- I couldn't stand the latter, and it gives me the heebie jeebies just thinking about it -- it's like having a fat sweaty Italian opera singer emote forcefully in your living room.
I still haven't heard anything that sounds quite like the Malgoire. It's probably because most people don't find it pleasing: it's very close and dry (and maybe limp sounding to some?). I get too many recommendations and I can't hear it anymore. I bought Neve/Agsteribbe so I'll spend a little time focused on this one. With most music these days, I listen in my living room for a while but then when I got out and put it on headphones, it's an entirely different experience in a good way. I'm lookin forward to listening to Neve on headphones.
Quote from: milk on April 23, 2019, 04:20:56 AM
I get too many recommendations and I can't hear it anymore.
What I've found is that as you get to know the music better, the familiarity gives you distance and you can see more rapidly what they're doing. And the pleasure becomes not only the sensual one of being caught up in the flow of sound -- that sensuality becomes increasingly tempered by the intellectual pleasure of trying to make sense of the whats and the whys of their style. I can't do it with many things.
This, published in today's US Catholic Herald, is about Notre Dame and the last recording made of the organ (which survived, Hallelujah), which was of BACH's works:
In praise of Notre-Dame's 8,000-pipe organ
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D4SZk3sWAAAOtZ4.jpg)
https://catholicherald.co.uk/magazine/in-praise-of-notre-dames-8000-pipe-organ/ (https://catholicherald.co.uk/magazine/in-praise-of-notre-dames-8000-pipe-organ/)
Also: This video (organ porn) of the making-of "Bach to the Future":
http://www.youtube.com/v/mGNNg7tH7t
Re: Bach's trio sonatas BWV 525-530
What are some favorite transcriptions of any kind? What say ye?
How about this one -- no wind instruments, English gentlemanly performances, rather lyrical, fluid.
(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/26/54/0095115065426_600.jpg)
or if you want a splash of colour then maybe this
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51FrZXEPWEL.jpg)
or maybe this
(https://rovimusic.rovicorp.com/image.jpg?c=y6bnGchtEGytbwiQRDplPA4Q1ghY8VaPylnm7PwcKNY=&f=5)
My favorite is Power Biggs on pedal harpsichord (CBS/Sony) which I used to prefer to the organ recordings, now I also like the organ but I still love Power Biggs especially in the faster movements.
I have most the six also in chamber arrangements but as fillers scattered over several discs and not from one ensemble and such arrangements are not my preference.
Quote from: Mandryka on April 28, 2019, 06:24:19 AM
(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/26/54/0095115065426_600.jpg)
This arrangement is rather inconsistent with the viola da gamba part (played by Richard Boothby, incidentally the arranger too) zigzagging between the continuo part and the middle voice. Give me London Baroque or The Brook Street Band anytime.
Yes but he has pleaded his
mea culpaQuoteWhen performing these trio sonatas in
concert, I am sometimes given to suggesting
to the audience that the music is too good to
be left only to organists; but, while it might
be true that they deserve a wider public, it is
nevertheless sobering to remember that what
here takes four players to realise, originally is
left to but a single musician.
I originally transcribed BWV 529 for
violin, oboe, viola da gamba and continuo
while I was studying in Salzburg in 1981,
and some aspects of that more difficult
arrangement (to suit the oboe) remain in the
present version for two violins, particularly
the transposition to D major. The basic idea of generally keeping the tessitura of the
original by giving the viol (in these
performances, specifically a viola da gamba)
some solos remains throughout the
arrangements, though it has been developed
further to include two entire movements
where the viol takes one of the upper lines:
the Adagio of BWV 525 (the violin part
transposed down an octave) and the first
movement of BWV 528.
Each of the trio sonatas presented
challenges very different from the others, and
different solutions were found: for example,
several movements were left intact with the
viol staying on its leash (as it were) in the
bass department: the first and third
movements of BWV 525, the second
movement of BWV 526, the last movement
of BWV 529 and the last movement of
BWV 530. The Lente of BWV 530, florid
and intricate as it is, seemed particularly
suited to the sort of texture found in Bach's
sonatas for violin and harpsichord, where the
harpsichord takes one of the upper voices
and its left hand the bass. Bach took the first
movement of BWV 528 from a cantata,
originally for oboe d'amore and viola da
gamba, so it was enough to replace the oboe
with violin. BWV 525 was transposed from
E flat major, which did not suit the strings so well, to F major, which did. The concertolike opening Vivace of BWV 530 is given the
most extensive treatment of all: there are
three passages where the typical keyboard
figuration of the original would not have
worked well on the violins (incidentally, it is
fascinating to see how Bach develops these
three seemingly similar passages); so the
harpsichord takes over at these points and we
have added the sort of clashing and resolving
violin lines that often are found in his
harpsichord concertos.
I hope that we have achieved sufficient
variety in our instrumentations for the
enjoyment of listeners and players alike,
though I cannot escape the feeling that one
of my motives for mixing it up like this was
selfishly to grab some of the wonderful lines
of the upper parts for myself. I hope Bach
and the violins will forgive me
It's the relative reticence of the interpretations which I like.
Quote from: Mandryka on April 28, 2019, 06:24:19 AM
How about this one -- no wind instruments, English gentlemanly performances, rather lyrical, fluid.
or if you want a splash of colour then maybe this
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51FrZXEPWEL.jpg)
I'd like to hear this.
Quote from: Jo498 on April 28, 2019, 06:46:24 AM
My favorite is Power Biggs on pedal harpsichord (CBS/Sony) which I used to prefer to the organ recordings, now I also like the organ but I still love Power Biggs especially in the faster movements.
I have most the six also in chamber arrangements but as fillers scattered over several discs and not from one ensemble and such arrangements are not my preference.
Biggs is a lot of fun.
Quote from: milk on April 28, 2019, 07:56:12 AM
I'd like to hear this. .
I think you will enjoy this more
(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Colombo-C-T04-1a%5BColombo-MP3%5D.jpg)
Quote from: milk on April 28, 2019, 04:19:01 AM
Re: Bach's trio sonatas BWV 525-530
What are some favorite transcriptions of any kind? What say ye?
Transcription being anything not on the organ? Or not on the keyboard?
I had BWV 525 arranged for Viennese "Schrammelmusik" (violins & accordion; they might well have added the guitar that's traditionally part of it) and played in the vineyard at our wedding. That might be my favorite therefore. :p
But more usefully (if at all): I have the Purcell Quartet (Chandos) (https://amzn.to/2ZFHjFP), which I like. And the Brook Street Band (Avie?) (https://amzn.to/2LaNpLl) which I'm not as fond of... although it is certainly fine. Fewer than I would have thought I had...
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 29, 2019, 05:03:06 AM
Transcription being anything not on the organ? Or not on the keyboard?
Presumably not on 2 keyboards with pedal: organ or pedal harpsichord. Premont, I think, thinks that the keyboard score is in fact a transcription of a now lost set of chamber piece for a couple of melody instruments and a harpsichord, but I can't recall how he supports the idea (if indeed he holds to that idea, I could be mistaken)
There is by the way there's a pedal harpsichord rendition of a couple of them here
(https://outhere-music.com/cache/im/album_portrait/uploads/albums/514b06eb6b194.jpeg?1.0.1.1)
And I'll mention that I just now started to listen to this, it seems rather good
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91F9GajoG4L._SL1413_.jpg)
Quote from: milk on April 28, 2019, 04:19:01 AM
Re: Bach's trio sonatas BWV 525-530
What are some favorite transcriptions of any kind? What say ye?
This is my absolute favorite. Trio Lezard.
[asin]B0009U7GS0[/asin]
I also have some of the others mentioned. What I did not like about the others is that they tried to reverse engineer the works into tradition trio sonatas. What is remarkable about the original works is that they consist of three voices, no continuo filling out the harmony.
The Trio Lezard transforms them into trios for three wind instruments. You get Bach's original conception, but with the clarity of a wind ensemble, rather than the resonance of a pipe organ.
I'm not sure if it is still in print. It should be.
The Power Biggs has very dry and totally transparent sound. There also some rather clear recordings on smaller? organs, e.g. John Butt/harmonia mundi. I used to like Power Biggs more than organ, now that I am more familar with the organ sound, I appreciate the more colorful possibilities.
The soundbits of Trio Lezard sound quite nice, though.
Quote from: Jo498 on April 29, 2019, 08:38:58 AM
The Power Biggs has very dry and totally transparent sound. There also some rather clear recordings on smaller? organs, e.g. John Butt/harmonia mundi. I used to like Power Biggs more than organ, now that I am more familar with the organ sound, I appreciate the more colorful possibilities.
The soundbits of Trio Lezard sound quite nice, though.
I still consider performance on organ to be primary. I like Alain's recording from the third Erato cycle, and Johannsen.
[asin]B000026BJ6[/asin]
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on April 29, 2019, 07:59:03 AM
The Trio Lezard transforms them into trios for three wind instruments. You get Bach's original conception, but with the clarity of a wind ensemble, rather than the resonance of a pipe organ.
I'm not sure if it is still in print. It should be.
Interesting. Up on my wishlist it goes. And certainly not out of print (http://a-fwd.to/6BLJFYw).
Does anyone know what is the extent to which the flute sonatas have been transcribed for other instruments? I see there's maybe some wind stuff. Have they been done for Gamba or other instruments? Also for the Gamba suites, does anyone think they've been successful on the cello? I know it's been done quite a bit.
Anner Bylsma made a transcription of the solo flute sonata BWV 1013 here. I have a friend who thinks it represents a major moment in the reception history of baroque cello music, because of the articulation, which my friend says is more like recitative than anything that had been tried before. More like sprechgesang than aria. See what you think. (I just put it on while typing this and it crossed my mind that the performance has some of the knottiness of Sainte Colombe!)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51qLITS%2Ba%2BL._SY355_.jpg)
As far as playing the gamba sonatas on cello, I remember thinking that there were good things in Isserlis/Egarr, and in Hess/Egarr. There's also this -- I've never explored it much, somehow it hasn't captured my imagination, but the problem may well be with me
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71jcqRt--0L._SL1200_.jpg)
Of course there are plenty of modern instrument recordings of the gamba sonatas for 'cello.
As for transcriptions there are more likely to be many towards flute and recorder. Certainly of the organ trio sonatas. There is also the version of one of the gamba for two flutes and I think another one with flute that might be by CPE or a collaboration of father and son.
I cannot help with transcriptions of the flute sonatas, though. But virtually everything by Bach has been transcribed for all kinds of combinations of instruments. (I used to play two part inventions for two clarinets with my teacher). Again, because of the relatively smaller repertoire for winds, there are more transcriptions from strings or keyboard to winds than vice versa, I think.
Quote from: Mandryka on April 28, 2019, 07:55:23 AM
Yes but he has pleaded his mea culpa
His confessions do not make the arrangement better. Now he is so focused upon the viola da gamba, I wonder why he didn't arrange the trio sonatas in the vein of Buxtehudes trio sonatas in a consistent arrangement for violin, viola da gamba and harpsichord.
Quote from: Mandryka on April 29, 2019, 07:05:48 AM
Presumably not on 2 keyboards with pedal: organ or pedal harpsichord. Premont, I think, thinks that the keyboard score is in fact a transcription of a now lost set of chamber piece for a couple of melody instruments and a harpsichord, but I can't recall how he supports the idea (if indeed he holds to that idea, I could be mistaken)
Yes, I think most of the movements in the organ trio sonatas in the first hand were conceived as chamber music (concerto or sonata da camera).(Musicologists however think that BWV 530 was originally composed as an organ piece, maybe as an "Italian Concerto" for organ).
What makes me think so, is the chamber-music-like interplay of the two upper voices and the basso continuo style of the pedal voice. And the fact that Bach invented the genre. He also invented the harpsichord concerto by arranging his own violin concertos for harpsichord. And in the case of BWV 528,I we have an earlier version for oboe, gamba and continuo. Some musicologists think, that the compass of the upper parts in the organ trio sonatas does not apply to any melody instrument, but of course Bach transposed and arranged the original score to fit the demands of the organ.
Quote from: milk on May 03, 2019, 05:30:12 AM
Does anyone know what is the extent to which the flute sonatas have been transcribed for other instruments? I see there's maybe some wind stuff. Have they been done for Gamba or other instruments? Also for the Gamba suites, does anyone think they've been successful on the cello? I know it's been done quite a bit.
I do not know many arrangements of the sonatas for flute and harpsichord. Ingo Goritzki has made two recordings of the b-minor sonata using oboe. I do not consider versions for recorder true arrangements.
The partita for solo flute has on the other hand had many different arrangements. Harpsichord (Evans), cello (Bylsma, Balazs Mate, Rohmann, Zeuthen) and violin (Podger, Gatti). I have not yet heard all of these.
Quote from: Jo498 on May 03, 2019, 07:33:23 AM
There is also the version of one of the gamba for two flutes
This is Bach's own transcription.
Quote from: Mandryka on May 03, 2019, 06:05:40 AM
As far as playing the gamba sonatas on cello, I remember thinking that there were good things in Isserlis/Egarr, and in Hess/Egarr. There's also this -- I've never explored it much, somehow it hasn't captured my imagination, but the problem may well be with me
I do not see the point of playing the gamba/harpsicord sonatas on cello/harpsichord. The internal balance is disturbed, a balance which already is problematic, because the gamba plays the lower of the two upper voices. To some degree the balance is better in Bylsma's cello recording of these sonatas with van Asperen on organ.
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 03, 2019, 11:08:53 AM
This is Bach's own transcription.
Sure, I did not mean to imply otherwise.
As I said, I am usually for original versions anyway and prefer the keyboard versions of the trios. Nevertheless I acquired the following discs I mention for those interested without evaluation
Camerata Köln on cpo with the gamba sonatas "beefed up" by violin in the g minor (this close to the Buxtehude combo), recorder in the D major and flute in the G major. Plus the organ sonatas 525 for flute, violin, bc and 527 for recorder, violon, bc.
Hantai & amis with 525, 529+530 for recorder, violin, bc. (only in the naive Hantai box, otherwise oop).
Freiburger Barocksolisten (still modern instruments, rec. 1984, not sure if any overlap with the later Freiburg HIP ensembles) on Christophorus CHE 0053-2) with reconstructions of a C major (BWV 1027 + 1039), flute, viola, bc, one in b minor (BWV 178,104,92, 36) for 2 oboe d'amore, bc, on a minor (BWV 1030/B) for oboe and cembalo obbligato and a g minor (BWV 76 and 528) for Oboe, Viola bc
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 03, 2019, 11:14:45 AM
I do not see the point of playing the gamba/harpsicord sonatas on cello/harpsichord. The internal balance is disturbed, a balance which already is problematic, because the gamba plays the lower of the two upper voices. To some degree the balance is better in Bylsma's cello recording of these sonatas with van Asperen on organ.
Yes, it's just that I thought that Isserlis/Egarr was slightly less offensive in this respect, that was about five years ago, I've not heard the recording since.
Koroliov's Multiple-Keyboard Concerto Reference Recording
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D53wx_yXsAAmThU.jpg)
[insider content] ...but suffice it to say that it is: a.) only the second recording of the complete multiple piano concertos of Bach's and b.) the new standard... because Frey et al. aren't. (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/koroliovs-multiple-keyboard-concerto-reference-recording/)
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on May 06, 2019, 05:38:21 AM
Koroliov's Multiple-Keyboard Concerto Reference Recording
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D53wx_yXsAAmThU.jpg)
[insider content] ...but suffice it to say that it is: a.) only the second recording of the complete multiple piano concertos of Bach's and b.) the new standard... because Frey et al. aren't. (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/koroliovs-multiple-keyboard-concerto-reference-recording/)
Frey's recording is not actually complete (it's missing BWV 1064.
But I'm so used to harpsichord in these concertos that I would get this merely as a curiosity, if at all.
Skeletons copulating on tin roofs are the best!
My (secret) preference with these concerti is probably originals if applicable or reconstructions for violins and winds... I am neither fond of massed piano nor of massed harpsichord sounds.
Quote from: JBS on May 06, 2019, 07:31:12 AM
Frey's recording is not actually complete (it's missing BWV 1064.
But I'm so used to harpsichord in these concertos that I would get this merely as a curiosity, if at all.
Skeletons copulating on tin roofs are the best!
SOB. Frey, that is. Or rather: Me, for not checking that completely. But thanks for the hinter!!!
I hear you re: Harpsichord. I do like a good Skeleton Threesome in Bach, myself. Probably Hogwood... I think... for these works. (He also handily includes some reconstructions of the presumed originals.)
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 03, 2019, 10:36:25 AM
His confessions do not make the arrangement better. Now he is so focused upon the viola da gamba, I wonder why he didn't arrange the trio sonatas in the vein of Buxtehudes trio sonatas in a consistent arrangement for violin, viola da gamba and harpsichord.
Oh but 530/ii is gorgeous as a little duo for violin and harpsichord! And to me the first movement sounds really Bachian, like a little concerto -- where the harpsichord even makes a brief attempt to steal the show! What could be more Bach that that?!!!!
Quote from: milk on April 14, 2019, 05:45:13 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/515HgH1q95L._SX355_.jpg)
This is my favorite recording of these pieces. I'm listening to this and thinking the baroque violin sounds infinitely better than recordings with modern violin.
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on April 15, 2019, 08:25:33 AM
Your comment sparked my interest, then I saw that on amazon it has only one review, which is disparaging in a way that tends to make be think the recording is very good. Alas, seems to be out-of-print and sporadically available an unattractive prices.
Reissue ahead! :)
(https://media1.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/3760014194870.jpg)
Q
Quote from: Que on May 11, 2019, 09:41:59 AM
Reissue ahead! :)
(https://media1.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/3760014194870.jpg)
Q
Nice to see that. This is a unique recording and I could see why some my just hate it. But one would be hard-pressed to find something like it. Again, that may be just because most people think this isn't the way it should be done. I'd like to know more about Malgoire's thinking for this.
Quote from: milk on May 12, 2019, 03:44:00 AM
This is a unique recording and I could see why some my just hate it. But one would be hard-pressed to find something like it. Again, that may be just because most people think this isn't the way it should be done. I'd like to know more about Malgoire's thinking for this.
What do you have in mind, what's leading you to say this?
As I type I'm listening to 1019 now, I think that Malgoire's tone is soft, haunting and lovely,like a spectre in the 4th movement, as she is in the 1017 siciliano , and Rannou is very able to play this music. But what I don't hear is the radical-ness that your post is suggesting. Not as radical as my favourite Frank Agsteribbe.
Quote from: Mandryka on May 12, 2019, 10:11:34 AM
What do you have in mind, what's leading you to say this?
As I type I'm listening to 1019 now, I think that Malgoire's tone is soft, haunting and lovely,like a spectre in the 4th movement, as she is in the 1017 siciliano , and Rannou is very able to play this music. But what I don't hear is the radical-ness that your post is suggesting. Not as radical as my favourite Frank Agsteribbe.
Right. Maybe radical is not the right word. I think I know very little about the violin but it seems like she plays very softly and that it's recorded very close. I get the feeling that usually, people/critics see "soft-ish" playing as negative, like limp or weak? But maybe I'm totally off-base. Almost every recording I've heard is at least engineered differently, with healthy reverb and stronger playing. Maybe it's not such a big difference as I described. I want to say it's soft to the point of harmonics but maybe she doesn't actually go that far. Have you ever heard Adrian Butterfield's CPE Bach with Laurence Cummings?
I'm listening to Frank Agsteribbe now. There's perhaps more going on as far as style and creativity in the violin. And the Harpsichord has a very nice sound. It does grab my attention. Back to thinking about Malgoire: there still seems something about the way she bows that seems different.
Quote from: milk on May 15, 2019, 11:32:08 PM
Right. Maybe radical is not the right word. I think I know very little about the violin but it seems like she plays very softly and that it's recorded very close. I get the feeling that usually, people/critics see "soft-ish" playing as negative, like limp or weak? But maybe I'm totally off-base. Almost every recording I've heard is at least engineered differently, with healthy reverb and stronger playing. Maybe it's not such a big difference as I described. I want to say it's soft to the point of harmonics but maybe she doesn't actually go that far. Have you ever heard Adrian Butterfield's CPE Bach with Laurence Cummings?
All this seems right to me, Magloire is special
Quote from: milk on May 15, 2019, 11:32:08 PM
Have you ever heard Adrian Butterfield's CPE Bach with Laurence Cummings?
Very nice, an outstanding find. He is really sweet and intimate. The music's delightful too I think, the early one is not far in style from his father's, people sometimes talk about how there was a cross-fertilization of ideas between son and father, this may well be a good example. Specially nice to hear those quirky variations for violin and clavichord! I didn't realise that music could sound like that.
Quote from: milk on May 15, 2019, 11:32:08 PM
I'm listening to Frank Agsteribbe now. There's perhaps more going on as far as style and creativity in the violin. And the Harpsichord has a very nice sound. It does grab my attention. Back to thinking about Malgoire: there still seems something about the way she bows that seems different.
Yes I agree.
Follow-up, of sorts:
White Nougat: David Fray In Bach's Multiple-Keyboard Concertos
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D64BMPnWwAA2Awi.jpg)
https://www.classicstoday.com/review/white-nougat-david-fray-in-bachs-multiple-keyboard-concertos/ (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/white-nougat-david-fray-in-bachs-multiple-keyboard-concertos/)
More Bach on ClassicsToday, if you allow me to indulge you:
One-To-A-Part Bach Harpsichord Concertos: Great In Detail But Big-Picture Pale
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D-89hiBXoAA-8cU.jpg) (https://t.co/JRr728pz30)
& [insider content, alas]
Back in Print: Peter Hurford's Seminal Bach Survey On Argo/Decca
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D_Vx0fhXoAEzIaR.jpg) (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/back-in-print-peter-hurfords-seminal-bach-survey-on-argo-decca/)
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on July 13, 2019, 12:06:03 AM
More Bach on ClassicsToday, if you allow me to indulge you:
peter-hurfords-seminal-bach-survey-on-argo-decca
Well it is good, but SEMINAL may be something of an overstatement, unless you find 90 % of the existing Bach integrals seminal, so I take your words with a grain of salt.
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 13, 2019, 03:18:33 AM
Well it is good, but SEMINAL may be something of an overstatement, unless you find 90 % of the existing Bach integrals seminal, so I take your words with a grain of salt.
You obviously have a point. In fact, multiple points. Firstly, there really are not many Bach Organ cycles that I've come across that I DON'T love. (Although I have a clear set of favorites and a few that I don't much like. In that, the choice of the word might have been a bit indiscriminate.
But: There' a bit more to it, too, in that I meant to imply that it was, well, groundbreaking because of the label it appeared on and the time it appeared at and the inclusiveness it had at that time. There wasn't that much choice in 1980 (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html), certainly on major, well-distributed labels. And the Decca Twofer of it must have been one of the most sold Bach Organ CDs of the 90s. (Also, Hurford's was the first CD set to include the Neumeister chorales, if I'm not mistaken.) "Seminal", in my thinking, denotes a certain status at a certain point in time... not necessarily enduring greatness. Though I must say that I was
really enjoying the ride, listening my way through the set. More-so, often, than with some sets that are very highly regarded in these pages.
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on July 13, 2019, 04:08:55 AM
You obviously have a point. In fact, multiple points. Firstly, there really are not many Bach Organ cycles that I've come across that I DON'T love. (Although I have a clear set of favorites and a few that I don't much like. In that, the choice of the word might have been a bit indiscriminate.
But: There' a bit more to it, too, in that I meant to imply that it was, well, groundbreaking because of the label it appeared on and the time it appeared at and the inclusiveness it had at that time. There wasn't that much choice in 1980 (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html), certainly on major, well-distributed labels. And the Decca Twofer of it must have been one of the most sold Bach Organ CDs of the 90s. (Also, Hurford's was the first CD set to include the Neumeister chorales, if I'm not mistaken.) "Seminal", in my thinking, denotes a certain status at a certain point in time... not necessarily enduring greatness. Though I must say that I was really enjoying the ride, listening my way through the set. More-so, often, than with some sets that are very highly regarded in these pages.
A groundbreaking and easily available integral from that time would be Rübsam I (released 1978 - also the year I got it, and I remember well the stir it caused because of his playing style) or maybe Alain II (released 1981 IIRC) both certainly more HIP and therefore more groundbreaking (despite being played on neo-baroque instruments), than the somewhat later published Hurford integral, which also used neo-baroque instruments. But there were many other easily available integrals before Hurford: Walcha II, Rogg II e.g. And Jacob, who was the first to include the Neumeister chorales in an integral. Add to this, that Walcha and Rogg as well as Jacob used historical instruments exclusively. That said, Hurford's integral has got its qualities, but groundbreaking - no.
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 13, 2019, 05:12:46 AM
A groundbreaking and easily available integral from that time would be Rübsam I (released 1978 - also the year I got it, and I remember well the stir it caused because of his playing style)
I've been listening to the Leipzig Chorales in this set, and I'm impressed especially by the radiance of it. I think it's a solar (Apollo) interpretation of these chorales.
Did he write anything for the LPs? It would be interesting to read some of the controversy it caused.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 13, 2019, 05:58:02 AM
I've been listening to the Leipzig Chorales in this set, and I'm impressed especially by the radiance of it. I think it's a solar (Apollo) interpretation of these chorales.
Did he write anything for the LPs? It would be interesting to read some of the controversy it caused.
I don't own the LP set any more (culled it for space considerations, when I got the CD release - unfortunately I forgot, that the eight small preludes and fugues wasn't contained in the CD release), but I do not recall any comments from Rübsam in the rather slim book.
Ingrid Haebler's set of French suites really is outstanding in my opinion. The last few months have been a little bit stressful for me and I haven't wanted to listen to anything loud or jarring. Haebler is certainly very calm. Yet she's also pertinacious; she has a definite view of the whole. I like her calmness, her little tasteful but creative touches, etc. I was just thinking back to other recordings of this that I've liked in the past that take a different route. Haebler is touching and melancholic and even a bit romantic. But her romanticism is just how I like it. One can almost hear an echo of Chopin in her Sarabandes, however her use of dynamics is subtle and judicious. The romanticism is more in her tone (articulation?). (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71pClJfVftL._SX355_.jpg)
I think it's the only Bach she recorded. I find her way of of playing like a big chunk of apple strudel -- naughty but nice
(https://platedcravings.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Apple-Strudel-Recipe-Plated-Cravings-10-500x427.jpg)
Quote from: milk on July 14, 2019, 01:38:18 AM
Haebler is touching and melancholic and even a bit romantic. But her romanticism is just how I like it. One can almost hear an echo of Chopin in her Sarabandes, however her use of dynamics is subtle and judicious. The romanticism is more in her tone (articulation?).
I like Joanna MacGregor in the French Suites for very similar reasons. Romanticism, though not particularly melancholic in this case.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81P8iMCCS8L._SX425_.jpg)
Plus, she squeezes them all onto one disc (though the last 2 tracks on mine are unplayable).
Quote from: aukhawk on July 14, 2019, 03:53:29 AM
I like Joanna MacGregor in the French Suites for very similar reasons. Romanticism, though not particularly melancholic in this case.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81P8iMCCS8L._SX425_.jpg)
Plus, she squeezes them all onto one disc (though the last 2 tracks on mine are unplayable).
At the risk of saying something nonsensical (again) here, I have the impression that MacGregor has thought really well about how to put a harpsichord or clavichord piece from the C18 century onto a modern piano - the way she makes the voices relate to each other, and the sort of touch she employs. The Haebler Bach sounds like Haebler Mozart and Haebler Chopin.
Both attractive, Haebler wonderfully sensual and seductive. I have a lot of respect for McGregor and I really wish she's had a go at WTC.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 14, 2019, 04:21:48 AM
I have a lot of respect for MacGregor and I really wish she's had a go at WTC.
She can be found on YouTube playing some WTC - I've got lifts of Book 1 nos 15-24.
Quote from: milk on July 14, 2019, 01:38:18 AM
Ingrid Haebler's set of French suites really is outstanding in my opinion. The last few months have been a little bit stressful for me and I haven't wanted to listen to anything loud or jarring. Haebler is certainly very calm. Yet she's also pertinacious; she has a definite view of the whole. I like her calmness, her little tasteful but creative touches, etc. I was just thinking back to other recordings of this that I've liked in the past that take a different route. Haebler is touching and melancholic and even a bit romantic. But her romanticism is just how I like it. One can almost hear an echo of Chopin in her Sarabandes, however her use of dynamics is subtle and judicious. The romanticism is more in her tone (articulation?). (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71pClJfVftL._SX355_.jpg)
Did you ever listen to Ashkenazy's Partitas? There is definitely a Chopinesque feel to how he plays them.
Quote from: JBS on July 14, 2019, 04:00:08 PM
Did you ever listen to Ashkenazy's Partitas? There is definitely a Chopinesque feel to how he plays them.
I'm not sure I have. I'm looking through my playlists. Actually, I don't think it's on Amazon Music - which I've been using. His WTC is there though. I wonder how that is...
Quote from: Mandryka on July 14, 2019, 04:21:48 AM
At the risk of saying something nonsensical (again) here, I have the impression that MacGregor has thought really well about how to put a harpsichord or clavichord piece from the C18 century onto a modern piano - the way she makes the voices relate to each other, and the sort of touch she employs. I have a lot of respect for McGregor and I really wish she's had a go at WTC.
Her AoF is pobably my favourite modern piano recording, FWIW (probably not much)
This is a link to a YouTube playlist, Joanna MacGregor, Bach WTC Bk1, 13-24.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBjoEdEVMABLOSOLViTUYcBgOa3jjysep (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBjoEdEVMABLOSOLViTUYcBgOa3jjysep)
Saturday #CDReview on ionarts:
#DipYourEars No.252 with Céline Frisch's #GoldbergVariations, Re-Issued.
(https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=49.0;attach=60145;image) (https://t.co/uK9OqI00K1?amp=1)
Recent #CDReview on ClassicsToday from
@ClassicalCritic:
Mahan Esfahani's Intriguing Goldberg Variations
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EEprBpyXoAA1fOc?format=jpg&name=small) (https://t.co/DLq5Z1DUI2?amp=1)
Recent #CDReview on ClassicsToday: Under the Radar: Bach-#Stravinsky From Kavakos
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDzVElgWkAEwOEk?format=jpg&name=small) (https://t.co/HTaDe64xwM?amp=1)
A rerelease (I presume) of Koopman: Bach's Cantatas 0:)
Jan 2020 - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-Complete-Cantatas-Vol-1-22/dp/B07XW5WSPN/
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/816vuRv7RUL._SL1500_.jpg)
Quote from: Moonfish on October 22, 2019, 10:35:41 PM
A rerelease (I presume) of Koopman: Bach's Cantatas 0:)
Jan 2020 - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-Complete-Cantatas-Vol-1-22/dp/B07XW5WSPN/
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/816vuRv7RUL._SL1500_.jpg)
Looking forward to seeing what the presentation will look like. Wolf's essays were an integral part of the original releases. Which is also how I will finish this set: Getting used copies of those volumes I'm still lacking.
For all the great competition since (notably Bach Stiftung St. Gallen [ClassicsToday reviews here (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/st-gallens-lovely-lively-bach-continues/)& here (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/volume-26-st-gallens-bach-cantata-cycle-marches-on/)] and Suzuki and Kuijken's 1-year cycle (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/sigiswald-kuijkens-zany-bach-of-wonders-boxed/)), I love this cycle very dearly over-all... and it probably is my emotional favorite.
According to Keith Hill, Friedrich Griepenkerl (who collected and published J S Bach's organ music for the first time, and may have studied with Forkel, who may have studied with Bach's children) wrote a letter (to whom?) saying
Quote from: Keith Hill here https://www.wolfgangrubsam.com/types-of-musicBach himself, his sons, and Forkel played the masterpieces with such a profound declamation that they sounded like polyphonic songs sung by individual great artist singers. Thereby, all means of good singing were brought into use. No cercare, No portamento was missing, even breathing was in all the right places. Bach's music wants to be sung with the maximum of art.
though we must bear in mind that Griepenkerl was born after well after J S Bach had died! He's two generations removed from J S Bach.
My question really is -- what is
cercare?
By the way, I'll just say that I'm completely smitten with Rubsam's Goldberg Variations!
Quote from: Mandryka on November 25, 2019, 05:41:34 AM
My question really is -- what is cercare?
It seems related to or maybe even synonymous with the word ricercare (which means to seek), but what the specific meaning is in this context (used as a noun?) I don't know.
I just began listening to the Bach Foundation cantata recordings:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61mIIvPMwPL._SS500_.jpg)
QuoteName: J.S. Bach-Stiftung
Location: St. Gallen, Switzerland
Venues: Evangelische Kirche, Trogen, canton of Appenzell
Years: Since 2006 (Cantata Series)
Months: January-December (7-10 concerts per year; in each concert one cantata is performed)
Artistic Director: Rudolf Lutz
Ensembles: Choir and Orchestra of the J.S. Bach Foundation (formerly Schola Seconda Pratica)
The J.S. Bach Foundation (J.S. Bach-Stiftung) has embarked on a remarkable undertaking: over a period of some 25 years, the Foundation will perform the complete vocal works by J.S. Bach (1685-1750).
Each month, one of the over 200 Bach cantatas is performed in the idyllic town of Trogen in Appenzell, Switzerland. With a rhythm of 12 cantatas per year, the project is estimated to conclude in the year 2030. All introductory workshops, concerts and reflection lectures on the cantata texts are recorded on DVD and CD; the texts of the lectures are published in a continually expanding Bach Anthology.
The main aim of the J.S. Bach Foundation's ambitious project is to provide a living Bach experience for today's listeners and to deepen our understanding of the great composer's works. The artistic director of the foundation is Rudolf Lutz, who rehearses and conducts all performances with the choir, orchestra and solo vocalists.
- Performance of the complete vocal works of Bach
One concert per month, with an estimated duration of 25 years
All concerts are performed on period instruments
With conductor Rudolf Lutz, a musical experience of the highest quality is guaranteed
Complementary workshops and reflection lectures on libretti and music
Every performance is released on DVD, the cantatas on CD and the texts appear in a Bach Anthology
The project is fully financed by private persons. (The Bach Cantatas website (https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Festival/Festival-St-Gallen-Bach-Stiftung.htm))
So far, I am finding this cycle to be extremely well done and very enjoyable. The soloists sound to my ears all very good, and the period orchestra plays well as does the choir sing. All in all this cycle is another contender to join the top tier of cantata recordings, at least IMO.
They have also recorded the
Mass in B Minor,
St. Matthew Passion and
St. John Passion along with
21 29 volumes so far of the cantatas.
Their website (https://www.bachstiftung.ch/).
I'm not much of a one for the Cantatas (since I don't have much German and even less religious feeling) but I watched/listened to this:
Actus Tragicus BWV106 : Netherlands Bach Society : Jos van Veldhoven (https://www.bachvereniging.nl/en/bwv/bwv-106/)
Just meltingly beautiful, immaculately played and sung, and fine production. I strongly recommend setting aside 20 minutes of your time for this.
Bach's audacious instrumentation - NO violins, 2 recorders, 2 gambas - and then what he achieves with them - as one of the musicians says in an accompanying interview, the young Bach (22, it is thought) creates effects here that he never repeats in his lifetime.
Quote from: aukhawk on December 09, 2019, 01:12:46 AM
I'm not much of a one for the Cantatas (since I don't have much German and even less religious feeling) but I watched/listened to this:
Actus Tragicus BWV106 : Netherlands Bach Society : Jos van Veldhoven (https://www.bachvereniging.nl/en/bwv/bwv-106/)
Just meltingly beautiful, immaculately played and sung, and fine production. I strongly recommend setting aside 20 minutes of your time for this.
Bach's audacious instrumentation - NO violins, 2 recorders, 2 gambas - and then what he achieves with them - as one of the musicians says in an accompanying interview, the young Bach (22, it is thought) creates effects here that he never repeats in his lifetime.
Does anyone know how it gained the name "Actus Tragicus"? I agree that it is an amazing cantata. Read along while you listen if you can.
I've been listening to the Andrew Manze Bach violin concerti CD on Harmonia Mundi lately. It's amazing. Manze is a badass for conducting from the violin. I didn't even know that was possible. Ms Podger is also great on the double concerti.
Quote from: San Antone on December 08, 2019, 02:39:57 PM
I just began listening to the Bach Foundation cantata recordings:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61mIIvPMwPL._SS500_.jpg)
So far, I am finding this cycle to be extremely well done and very enjoyable. The soloists sound to my ears all very good, and the period orchestra plays well as does the choir sing. All in all this cycle is another contender to join the top tier of cantata recordings, at least IMO.
They have also recorded the Mass in B Minor, St. Matthew Passion and St. John Passion along with 21 29 volumes so far of the cantatas.
Their website (https://www.bachstiftung.ch/).
I'm a big fan of that cycle. We've reviewed a few volumes on ClassicsToday (https://www.classicstoday.com/recordlabel/bach-stiftung-st-gallen/ (https://www.classicstoday.com/recordlabel/bach-stiftung-st-gallen/); vols. 10, 12, 23, 26 and I plan to review a few more) and I've reviewed their Vols. 22, 13, and B-Minor for Forbes. Never crazy amazing -- always directly to the heart and wonderful music-making.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/06/06/classical-cd-of-the-week-from-switzerland-with-bach-cantatas-to-grip-you/ (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/06/06/classical-cd-of-the-week-from-switzerland-with-bach-cantatas-to-grip-you/), https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/03/22/classical-cd-of-the-week-birthday-boy-bach-cantata-diversity/ (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/03/22/classical-cd-of-the-week-birthday-boy-bach-cantata-diversity/), https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/06/27/review-the-fastest-b-minor-mass-on-record/ (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/06/27/review-the-fastest-b-minor-mass-on-record/),
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 09, 2019, 02:08:15 AM
I've been listening to the Andrew Manze Bach violin concerti CD on Harmonia Mundi lately. It's amazing. Manze is a badass for conducting from the violin. I didn't even know that was possible. Ms Podger is also great on the double concerti.
We've been spoiled, with new releases of the violin concertos recently. I thought
Faust was terrific, a 2-CD set released at the start of this year, but now I've been won over by
Debretzeni/Gardiner recently released. Both these include the 'reconstructed' D Minor concerto BWV 1052 (more commonly found as a harpsichord concerto) which I think is Bach's most brilliant orchestral work bar none.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71peROpLKrL._SL1200_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71-Sc0uuAvL._SL1200_.jpg)
Quote from: aukhawk on December 09, 2019, 01:12:46 AM
I'm not much of a one for the Cantatas (since I don't have much German and even less religious feeling) but I watched/listened to this:
Actus Tragicus BWV106 : Netherlands Bach Society : Jos van Veldhoven (https://www.bachvereniging.nl/en/bwv/bwv-106/)
Just meltingly beautiful, immaculately played and sung, and fine production. I strongly recommend setting aside 20 minutes of your time for this.
Bach's audacious instrumentation - NO violins, 2 recorders, 2 gambas - and then what he achieves with them - as one of the musicians says in an accompanying interview, the young Bach (22, it is thought) creates effects here that he never repeats in his lifetime.
Thanks. It's so nice to see it done in the church. I would love to go to a Eucharist with a cantata sung, in the way Bach intended.
I am reading this book:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41ES1udOHCL._SX332_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
QuoteBach & God explores the religious character of Bach's vocal and instrumental music in seven interrelated essays. Noted musicologist Michael Marissen offers wide-ranging interpretive insights from careful biblical and theological scrutiny of the librettos. Yet he also shows how Bach's pitches, rhythms, and tone colors can make contributions to a work's plausible meanings that go beyond setting texts in an aesthetically satisfying manner. In some of Bach's vocal repertory, the music puts a "spin" on the words in a way that turns out to be explainable as orthodox Lutheran in its orientation. In a few of Bach's vocal works, his otherwise puzzlingly fierce musical settings serve to underscore now unrecognized or unacknowledged verbal polemics, most unsettlingly so in the case of his church cantatas that express contempt for Jews and Judaism. Finally, even Bach's secular instrumental music, particularly the late collections of "abstract" learned counterpoint, can powerfully project certain elements of traditional Lutheran theology. Bach's music is inexhaustible, and Bach & God suggests that through close contextual study there is always more to discover and learn.
I am finding and assembling the musical examples in a Spotify playlist so I can listen to what he is describing in the text.
Pretty interesting stuff.
8)
Quote from: San Antone on December 29, 2019, 08:28:35 AM
I am reading this book:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41ES1udOHCL._SX332_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
I am finding and assembling the musical examples in a Spotify playlist so I can listen to what he is describing in the text.
Pretty interesting stuff.
8)
I have the book and I've used it many times, most recently on the way Bach used the John gospel. But I can't read it critically because I know nothing about the christian interpretation of the Bible really. I'd very much appreciate it if you'd post your thoughts on anything in the book, you're much better placed to appreciate the nuances than I am (ex Christian, Jew)
Quote from: Mandryka on December 29, 2019, 10:20:45 AM
I have the book and I've used it many times, most recently on the way Bach used the John gospel. But I can't read it critically because I know nothing about the christian interpretation of the Bible really. I'd very much appreciate it if you'd post your thoughts on anything in the book, you're much better placed to appreciate the nuances than I am (ex Christian, Jew)
I am beginning what ought to be a long period of study of the Bach cantatas, and have purchased this book (I've owned
Bach & God for a while, and read it once, but am re-reading it with closer study of the musical examples):
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41WysBbvDPL._SX328_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
The Cantatas of J. S. Bach: With Their Librettos in German-English Parallel TextAlfred DurrBesides the translations there are several essays concerning the historical development of the cantata form as well as well as a discussion of Bach's musical settings.
Since you mention the St. John Passion, you might be interested in Durr's other Bach book (you may already know of it):
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41RM6kkapeL._SX302_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Durr is widely regarded as a preeminent Bach scholar.
And there's this one by Marissen
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51vxfR5s6EL._SX312_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
As for the book
Bach & God, as you should know,
Michael Marissen makes a point to not discuss Bach's belief or how Bach felt about the text he was setting. I too am not interested in religious issues, but only how Bach used musical devices to enhance the text or draw some distinction to it, which is the focus of Marissen's book.
What you'll see is the question of how Bach dealt with the musical settings of passages from John which prima facie are anti-Semitic looms large. Note I said prima facie, I'm just not able to say whether Marissen is right to suggest that parts of John's gospel and some of Bach's cantata settings of John are anti-Semitic. That's one of the things I hope you'll share your insights on.
I wasn't aware of that other book by Marissen in fact.
I think the basic matters can be summed up as
1) John's Gospel, which is supposed to be the last of the four canonical gospels to be put into writing (and therefore is most impacted by the growing split between the Jewish people and the primitive Church), has the most negative presentation of the Jews of the four, and therefore nore often used to justify Christian anti-Semitism
2) Luther was a virulent anti-Semite, and left a legacy of antiSemitism in the Lutheran Churches that was not fully expunged until after WWII.
3) Anti-Semitism was endemic in the 18th century, throughout Europe, often as a low level bigotry.
4) I know of no evidence that shows what Bach's attitude to the Jews was, whether better, worse, or average compared to his contemporaries. The same applies to almost every composer of the era.
5) But the chain of custody which kept Bach's reputation alive until Mendelssohn began the official revival included some of the assimilated Jewish families of Berlin to which the Mendelssohns belonged. Presumably they would have not been so keen on Bach if they felt he had more than the usual portion of anti-Semitism.
6) And while his Wikipedia biography implies he was raised as a Christian from birth or at least starting in childhood, one of the poets who supplied Bach with a number of cantata texts, Salomon Franck, has a name that can be called typically Jewish. So Franck may have come from a family that converted to Christianity from Judaism.
It is important to distinguish the "old" antisemitism that was mostly religious anti-judaism and the "modern" antisemitism that was mostly racist/biologist (at least in the late 19th/early 20th century, not sure about contemporary antisemitism that seems more a mix between biology, culture and lots of conspiracy theory). Luther turned antijudaist partly because attempts at a kind of coalition with representative of Judaism in its time had utterly failed (Luther had probably had totally unrealistic ideas how they would get along better with protestantism or how he could convince Jews to accept protestantism, so he took a sharp turn and became virulently anti-judaist). But I think that in Bach's and even in Mendelssohn's time an assimilated and especially a converted Jew was quickly accepted (at least a generation later or so the Jewish grandparents did not matter anymore). So this would have been the case for someone like Salomon Franck, I guess.
This changed in the later 19th century with modern racism. (I think Mendelssohn who was a baptized protestant experienced far more antisemitism posthumously than in his lifetime.) But it still came as a shock to many perfectly assimilated and often baptized German Jews that they were suddenly not considered German anymore by the Nazis.
As for the Gospel of John, it's, well, Gospel, so a Christian cannot simply change or skip text passages even if they unfairly blame the Jews more than the Romans.
It's not a question of blaming Jews at all. Take, for example, John 3:18, which Bach set
QuoteWhoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
3:18 is expanded on elsewhere in John, in ways which may not be very nice to Jews. Take for example 3:36
QuoteHe that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
and 12:48
QuoteThere is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.
Now listen to the stern way Bach sets John 3:18 in the closing chorus of cantata 68
https://www.youtube.com/v/n2zHuGTQ9X4&feature=emb_logo
An equally thought provoking example is in Cantata 44, which opens with John 16:2
QuoteThey will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God
The
they here are the Jews.
The cantata, which we have seen opens with a prediction of Jewish violence against Christians, responds to that threat with an aria and recitative
QuoteAh, God, how much heartache
do I encounter at this time!
The narrow path is full of trouble
that I shall follow to heaven.
The Antichrist,
the great monster,
seeks with sword and fire
to persecute the members of Christ,
since their teachings are against him.
He makes it appear
that his deeds must be pleasing to God.
However, Christians must resemble palm fronds,
which, when laden, only climb higher.
It is and remains the comfort of Christians,
that God watches over His church.
For even though the storms rage,
yet after the winds of trouble
the sun of joy soon smiled.
Jews seem to be being assimilated to the Antichrist in the extraordinary echo of John's
Quoteanyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God
in the lines
QuoteHe makes it appear
that his deeds must be pleasing to God.
You can imagine how the Jews living in Leipzig at the time must have felt about this.
Re Luther, there's this anti Jewish passage from the table talk - not something he wrote but notes of conversations,I have no idea whether it is an anomaly, just something he may have said in a moment of bad judgement, or whether it is representative of his thinking at some time in his life
This passage comes from the early 1530s, ten years before he died in his early 60s
QuoteThe Jews impersonating medics deprive of life and property the Christians who take their medication, for they suppose they do God a service if they intensely torment the Christians and secretly kill them
(Martin Luther, Tisch Reden 2308)
Note the echo of the text from John set in Cantata 44,
they suppose they do God a service.
The above posts are just taken from the book
Bach and God. As I said, I'm not able to read the book critically. Here's what someone who is, I think, more familiar with Christianity than I am, said to me - just to give you an idea what a minefield this is
QuoteThis is a distorted view of the gospel as it fails to take into account that the writer of John's gospel and Jesus himself were Jews. All of the early Christians were Jews. So to take the view that the Jews as a whole were the 'enemy' is something completely foreign to the gospel. What the gospel points out is those who rejected Jesus and put him to death who were both Jewish leaders (not the common people who gathered to hear Jesus and his message) and the Roman authorities.
Your point about John 3:18 is puzzling as it is a general point about the whole of mankind - it is in the context of 'God so loved the world' - and is not just applicable to Jews. Again John 3:36 is a statement for the whole of mankind and why do you emphasise the negative aspect of the verse without the positive aspect also?.
QuoteIt's interesting this alleged anti-Semitism obviously comes from some utterly regrettable tracks by Martin Luther which were written by the end of his life and are full of his usual explosive invective and which admirers fervently wish had never been written. Sometimes alleged anti-Semitism in John comes from the confusion that John often uses the term 'the Jews' for the Jewish ruling classes ie the priestly factions, with whom Jesus had the discussions and the disagreements, not the general Jewish populous. It was 'the Jews' and not the common people who plotted to put Jesus to death, Something that John makes quite clear. The common people wanted to make him king. The Priestley factions plotted his death.
I found an interesting comment in the New Yorker which is helpful I think to quote:
'Is the Passion's savage depiction of the Jews simply the work of a master storyteller? It is surely that, but not simply that. Bach's own attitude becomes clearer in his music and in the poetry of the choruses and arias with which he surrounds John's narrative.
An early chorale, for example, "Wer hat dich so geschlagen," asks of the wounded Jesus, "Who has struck you so?" The second verse answers, "Ich, ich und meine Sünden": "I" — we all, that is Protestant, Catholic and Jew alike — "I and my sins."
Here, as Mr. Marissen notes in his book "Bach & God" (2016), "Bach moves the focus away from the perfidy of 'the Jews' and onto the sins of Christian believers." And the work as a whole moves in an epic arc from turmoil to profound fellow-feeling and consolation, from inhumanity for the sake of effect, as it were, to a humanity deeply felt and registered.'
This of course fits in well with Christian theology which believes that although it was the Jewish rulers with the agreement of the Roman authorities who put Jesus to death, it was in fact our sins that nailed him to the cross. Early in Johns Gospel the statement "behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world " makes the point. So JSB is just following normal Christian theological tradition. There is no anti-Semitism about it just because JSB sets it in a tremendous drama
John 3:18 is just standard orthodox christology. Religions are usually not tolerant and neither are such supposed sayings of Christ that he is the only way etc.
I am not sure that the persecutors of Christians in the end times (or any other time) are necessarily supposed to be Jews or aligned with them. Of course, there was early persecution of Christians by Jews (such as St. Paul before his conversion who clearly had thought that stoning St. Stephen was "pleasing to God"), so this was not merely anti-Jewish slander at the time of the gospels
And obviously it could never be antisemitic in the modern sense as most important early Christians, apostles and teachers in the first century were all ethnically jewish and "ex-jewish" in their faith (like Paul). Not sure, but for several decades it was not even clear if christianity would be or remain mostly a reformist jewish sect. Even in the apostate Julian's time in the 4th century Christians would still be referred to as "Galileans" (vicisti, Galilee).
If Luke really was a Greek physician one should expect his gospel (addressed to the gentiles) to be the most antijudaist, but it's apparently not so simple. In fact he gospel of Matthew that is supposedly mostly addressed to Jews with plenty of references to Scripture has about as much blaming of the Jews (i.e. the priests and ruling class) for the crucifixion as John.) But at the probable composition of the 4th gospel in the early 2nd century it should have been clear that the Romans were the main persecutors and would be in the future. Obviously nobody could know around 100 AD that Christians would become powerful enough to persecute unbelievers only two to three centuries later.
But in the 18th century with the Jews a small minority and Christianity dominating, it was obviously slander to claim Jews would be trying to kill Christians. Because this seems very unrealistic, I am not at all sure that a 18th century Lutheran would mainly think of Jews as the potential persecutors mentioned in BWV 44. Even for Luther the "antichrist" was most likely the Pope or the Turkish Sultan, not a leader of some secret Jewish cabal. And if a 18th century listener would have thought of such a text not mainly spiritually but socially/politically, I think that he would have rather thought of another christian denomination (such as Catholics or radical protestants like anabaptists) or (maybe more likely) the Turks (who had not entirely ceased to be a threat to Europe in the early 18th century).
Edit: More generally, if one looks at other prophetic passages from the bible, be it Daniel or Revelation, there seem to be references to all kinds of empires/powers that would suppress and persecute the faithful without ever clearly being identifiable as Jewish (obviously such would be nonsensical in old testament prophecies but not per se in the Revelation of John). So while the slanders (like abducting and murdering Christian children) and conspiracy theories certainly were real, they are hardly based on biblical writings or mainstream theology and neither is a Jewish-led persecution of Christians.
It might be pointed out that Luther turned against the Jews late in life; cranky and most likely out of the outraged disappointment that now that he had cleared Christianity of all the legitimate hurdles that might keep one from embracing the true faith, they STILL didn't convert in huge numbers. That doesn't excuse his diatribes and it's a simplified depiction, obviously, but I think it sets the scene to better understand what was going on with him and in his writings.
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on December 30, 2019, 12:43:52 PM
It might be pointed out that Luther turned against the Jews late in life; cranky and most likely out of the outraged disappointment that now that he had cleared Christianity of all the legitimate hurdles that might keep one from embracing the true faith, they STILL didn't convert in huge numbers. That doesn't excuse his diatribes and it's a simplified depiction, obviously, but I think it sets the scene to better understand what was going on with him and in his writings.
Interesting, thanks.
yes, there are earlier writings that are far more open and there were meetings and/or correspondences with prominent Jews that came to nothing. Apparently Luther was deeply disappointed and felt personally injured (and he had been cranky and irascible even before becoming a famous reformer), so he turned strongly against Judaism. In any case, I think that one would have to look carefully into early 18th century German Lutheran theological stances and discussions to see if Judaism was an important topic for them at all or mostly ignored.
And as for the reaction of Jewish people to Bach's texts: Back then faithful Jews would not have attended a protestant service where Bach cantatas were played. So this only becomes an issue in Mendelssohn's time when Bach was "secularized" and played in public concerts.
M
No talk of Bach recently. Without that, my life suddenly has less meaning. Also, I have so much Bach that I don't know what I need to hear right now. Help!
Quote from: milk on August 12, 2020, 02:54:08 AM
No talk of Bach recently. Without that, my life suddenly has less meaning. Also, I have so much Bach that I don't know what I need to hear right now. Help!
The B minor Mass. Put on your favorite recording. If you don't have one, may I suggest Richter/Munich Bach Choir, or Gardiner on Archiv if you want something faster. Of course, there are a thousand other recordings, but these two are doing it for me right now ;D
As this thread seems a bit open ended I will ask a question (for anybody interested). What is your favourite Bach aria? I realise many people will have dozens but mine is the beautiful recitative Am Abend da es kühle war followed by the aria Mache dich, mein Herze, rein from the St Matthew Passion. Possibly my favourite version is Cornelius Hauptmann in Gardiner's recording (DG Archiv)
Quote from: Biffo on August 14, 2020, 04:34:25 AM
As this thread seems a bit open ended I will ask a question (for anybody interested). What is your favourite Bach aria? I realise many people will have dozens but mine is the beautiful recitative Am Abend da es kühle war followed by the aria Mache dich, mein Herze, rein from the St Matthew Passion. Possibly my favourite version is Cornelius Hauptmann in Gardiner's recording (DG Archiv)
A wonderful choice! I may have to second your selection there.
My favourite Bach aria is this marvel:
https://www.youtube.com/v/4XeuHyWpTLE
"Tief gebückt und voller Reue" from Mein Herze schwimmt im Blut BWV 199. And I haven't chosen Dawn Upshaw' s recording by chance; it is a close to perfect as I can imagine... :)
And in No. 2 position, "Zerfliesse, mein Herze" from the St. John Passion, BWV 245. I'm particularly fond of Evelyn Lear in this (my first exposure to the aria decades ago).
https://www.youtube.com/v/R8bP0bub9IM
Quote from: Biffo on August 14, 2020, 04:34:25 AMWhat is your favourite Bach aria?
Could not pick between Aus Liebe will mein Heiland sterben, Können Tränen meiner Wangen, or Komm, süsses Kreuz. Perhaps slight preference for the latter for the gamba solo. I suppose they all make up one larger "meta-aria", in my defence.
Quote from: ritter on August 14, 2020, 06:03:05 AM
My favourite Bach aria is this marvel:
https://www.youtube.com/v/4XeuHyWpTLE
"Tief gebückt und voller Reue" from Mein Herze schwimmt im Blut BWV 199. And I haven't chosen Dawn Upshaw' s recording by chance; it is a close to perfect as I can imagine... :)
And in No. 2 position, "Zerfliesse, mein Herze" from the St. John Passion, BWV 245. I'm particularly fond of Evelyn Lear in this (my first exposure to the aria decades ago).
https://www.youtube.com/v/R8bP0bub9IM
Two fine choices there - I have BWV 199 sung by Lorraine Hunt Lieberson; the disc was highly praised when first issued. I will have to give it a spin again soon.
Here are some Bach reviews I have recently(ish) penned for ClassicsToday:
Fine Christmas Oratorio With Boys From Stuttgart
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EpQ92ysW4AAhrmA?format=jpg&name=large)
https://www.classicstoday.com/review/fine-christmas-oratorio-with-boys-from-stuttgart/ (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/fine-christmas-oratorio-with-boys-from-stuttgart/?search=1)
Alexandre Tharaud's Singular Goldberg Vartiations
https://www.classicstoday.com/review/alexandre-tharauds-singular-goldberg-vartiations/ (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/alexandre-tharauds-singular-goldberg-vartiations/?search=1)
Treble-Trouble: A Forgettable Matthew Passion From King's College
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EhTpjFtWoAAM1Xn?format=jpg&name=small)
https://www.classicstoday.com/review/treble-trouble-a-forgettable-matthew-passion-from-kings-college/ (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/treble-trouble-a-forgettable-matthew-passion-from-kings-college/)
Longing For Sweet Death: St. Gallen's Bach, Vol. 22
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EpMs-LzXUAQhIX_?format=jpg&name=small)
https://www.classicstoday.com/review/longing-for-sweet-death-st-gallens-bach-vol-22/ (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/longing-for-sweet-death-st-gallens-bach-vol-22/)
The Well-Trebled Christmas Oratorio
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EpQ-9w5XIAIBLQg?format=jpg&name=large)
https://www.classicstoday.com/review/the-well-trebled-christmas-oratorio/ (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/the-well-trebled-christmas-oratorio/)
Dip Your Ears: No. 262 (#GoldbergReflections)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/M7wKt0Bq_EK6cIERSe1QT49T6eJY6GixnlDvoI_WaSGiRJxH8RIVyFCSgBlOUG8PGaFPvO68E9WgsO69UE1EyW_GjMqfQsKicA=s0-d)
https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2020/11/dip-your-ears-no-262-goldbergreflections.html (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2020/11/dip-your-ears-no-262-goldbergreflections.html)
I'd like to hear more of Masaaki Suzuki's Bach recordings. I have these:
Johannespassion (first recording)
Inventions & Sinfonias
Magnificat
... & that's about it. What are some highlights of his work? Note that I can scarcely afford to buy more than one or two of them at a time. BIS is damn expensive.
I guess you don't stream?
Mass in B Minor
St. Matthew Passion
I like some of his organ works.
And his entire box set of cantatas. Okay both the sacred masterworks and cantatas used to be in bargain box sets. You just missed it.
Here try this:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51G9P3trqsL._SX300_SY300_QL70_ML2_.jpg)
Quote from: DavidW on March 02, 2021, 07:02:57 PM
I guess you don't stream?
Mass in B Minor
St. Matthew Passion
I like some of his organ works.
And his entire box set of cantatas. Okay both the sacred masterworks and cantatas used to be in bargain box sets. You just missed it.
Here try this:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51G9P3trqsL._SX300_SY300_QL70_ML2_.jpg)
You guess correct.
Which recording of the SMP? There was a recent one as well as one from some 20 years ago. I've been looking for good deals on the cantatas box sets for several years. The ones I've seen have all been damn expensive.
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 03, 2021, 01:30:56 AM
You guess correct.
Which recording of the SMP? There was a recent one as well as one from some 20 years ago. I've been looking for good deals on the cantatas box sets for several years. The ones I've seen have all been damn expensive.
I've only heard the old one so I can't comment.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000sht1
Mark Seow explores links between Bach's music and farming - of the soil, heart and soul.
QuoteBach's Germany was an agrarian society. Just beyond Leipzig's city walls, farmers worked the land to grow crops that sustained its citizens. Some of Bach's music explicitly engages with farming. Its rustic oomph and repetitive motifs call to mind the manual toil of digging. John Eliot Gardiner even described the texture of one Bach cantata as "warm topsoil, fertile and well irrigated". Yet devotional writings of Bach's time make it clear that farming was something not just done out on the fields. Instead all Lutherans were to be farmers of sorts: they were to plough the "soil" of their hearts so to receive the Word of God and bring it to fruition.
The notion that scripture was a type of seed pervaded 18th-century thought, and Bach was intimate with this kind of corporeal agricultural. In this episode, Mark Seow explores how the cultivation of Lutheran hearts as if they were farmland urge us to rehear much-loved moments of Bach, including movements from his Christmas Oratorio and the St Matthew Passion
I started this thread on a whim and then abandoned it after several days with no replies. I see there WERE a later few replies back then. So it is still open. A couple of fantasy questions if anyone cares to consider and reply.
1. There are still a large number of Bach's compositions missing, particularly much of eldest son Friedemnn's collection. If a trunkful of them should be found somewhere in the proverbial attic, what kind of music would you hope to see in it? Choral or instrumental, church or secular, cantatas, motets, solos, concertos? Etc., etc. And why? And are there any particular works which we know were written but are missing that you would hope to find?
2. If you could take a time travel trip to Leipzig in 1748, a couple years before the Master's death, with what specific words and sentences would you inform him of his place in music history, and the development of music since his death, and his influence(s) on this development?
Quote from: Chaszz on November 22, 2021, 09:28:22 AM
I started this thread on a whim and then abandoned it after several days with no replies. I see there WERE a later few replies back then. So it is still open. A couple of fantasy questions if anyone cares to consider and reply.
1. There are still a large number of Bach's compositions missing, particularly much of eldest son Friedemnn's collection. If a trunkful of them should be found somewhere in the proverbial attic, what kind of music would you hope to see in it? Choral or instrumental, church or secular, cantatas, motets, solos, concertos? Etc., etc. And why? And are there any particular works which we know were written but are missing that you would hope to find?
2. If you could take a time travel trip to Leipzig in 1748, a couple years before the Master's death, with what specific words and sentences would you inform him of his place in music history, and the development of music since his death, and his influence(s) on this development?
i suppose a lot of people would expect to find another cantata. Isn't it well-established that many cantatas were lost?
There might be as much as two "years" of cantatas lost but the estimations seem to vary. Some think that a lot of the lost music was re-used anyway, others think that about 100 cantatas could be totally lost. I don't know about instrumental music; it seems even more speculative here. It seems rather likely that none of the keyboard concerti except Brandenburg 5 and two harpsichords C major was originally for keyboard, so several of the originals are missing (but that's not that much, not really new as we have the later keyboard versions and the originals might not all have been by Bach anyway, like the Vivaldi for the 4 keyboard).
In any case I would not expect anything revelatory. It's diminishing returns. How much could another 50+ cantatas in pretty much the same style (because written at roughly the same time for the same audience) add to the 200 extant ones? Maybe some nice concerti and chamber music but again, almost certainly nothing revelatory.
(One can also take the rare cases when a short piece by Bach (or Handel or Mozart or...) is actually found in some archive. Disregarding uncertain authorship, they were never anything special, AFAIK.)
Quote from: Jo498 on November 23, 2021, 12:24:59 AM
There might be as much as two "years" of cantatas lost but the estimations seem to vary. Some think that a lot of the lost music was re-used anyway, others think that about 100 cantatas could be totally lost. I don't know about instrumental music; it seems even more speculative here. It seems rather likely that none of the keyboard concerti except Brandenburg 5 and two harpsichords C major was originally for keyboard, so several of the originals are missing (but that's not that much, not really new as we have the later keyboard versions and the originals might not all have been by Bach anyway, like the Vivaldi for the 4 keyboard).
In any case I would not expect anything revelatory. It's diminishing returns. How much could another 50+ cantatas in pretty much the same style (because written at roughly the same time for the same audience) add to the 200 extant ones? Maybe some nice concerti and chamber music but again, almost certainly nothing revelatory.
(One can also take the rare cases when a short piece by Bach (or Handel or Mozart or...) is actually found in some archive. Disregarding uncertain authorship, they were never anything special, AFAIK.)
Are many of his best pieces usually found as recycled in other formats? I wonder how likely it is to find an original masterpiece existing nowhere else? I'd love it if there were more somewhere.
I think there is the idea (not quite a "theory") that Bach sometimes recycled pieces to give them broader distribution, more permanence. Not sure if it worked back then but to a certain extent in hindsight, as b minor mass and especially Xmas oratorio have a lot of recycling and since the late 19th century they are certainly far better known than the secular cantatas most of the latter is taken from.
So I think the "optimists" take this as an indication that not that much and especially not the best/most important stuff was completely lost. As some of Bach's sons and students also did care to preserve some of the music we could also expect an amount of cherry picking instead of randomness. Sure, a few very good cantatas and chamber pieces might be lost, but probably no secret masterwork.
Bach's Violin & Cello Solo Works on Plucked Instruments - Any Fans! 8)
Last few days there has been some exchange of posts in the 'listening thread' regarding Bach's Cello Suites performed on plucked instruments, i.e. lutes and theorbos (or the 'German theorbo') w/ Hopkinson Smith vs. Pascal Monteilhet. In my collection, I currently have Smith doing the Violin Works on an MP3 DL and both Cello discs in a recent combined Naive wallet-box; also have the two Monteilhet recordings 'in the mail' and have owned the Nigel North 4-CD set for ages.
Now, I like all of these performers and also greatly enjoy these works on plucked instruments although this is often a controversial subject - attached are some reviews but not that many except for North. For those liking this 'transcription exercise', who are some of your favorites among those shown below and/or any others to promote into the top tiers? Thanks - Dave :)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/419v7906cdL.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81gEWBla02L._SL1429_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61M+TC0fgBL.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-ksctkv4/0/42a1c8e7/O/BachCSs1_2_3.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-CHRLBfq/0/d5c61186/O/BachCSs4_5_6.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/514rKndpYWL.jpg)
I think the Cello Suites on a lute sound wonderful. But they do sound like Cello Suites arranged for lute (except 5, of course, which was a lute suite to begin with).
But the Violin Sonatas and Partitas, I think, sound better on the lute. This is because it gets rid of the violiness of the originals. :-)
Hopkinson Smith for preference.
Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 28, 2022, 11:07:20 AM
Bach's Violin & Cello Solo Works on Plucked Instruments - Any Fans! 8)
Yes, of Hopkinson Smith. But I have a strange feeling of déjà-vu.
Toyohiko Satoh did and recorded some nice transcriptions for lute of the cello suites 1,2 and 4.
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7938907--three-solo-suites
Quote from: Mandryka on July 29, 2022, 01:37:04 AM
Yes, of Hopkinson Smith. But I have a strange feeling of déjà-vu.
LOL! :laugh: Well, of course this topic has come up in the past, but always helpful to get some new insights and possibly new recordings that may be of interest? Dave
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 29, 2022, 07:30:06 AM
Toyohiko Satoh did and recorded some nice transcriptions for lute of the cello suites 1,2 and 4.
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7938907--three-solo-suites
Thanks
: premont : - I've heard of
Satoh - have the recording below in a De Visée playlist on Spotify - have not heard his Bach, so will check there; also listened to
Rübsam on the lute-harpsichord doing the first 3 suites and enjoyed. Dave :)
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/545bb8dbe4b04f070d4e7f30/1450802093156-5NHPZ2EGCA111Z5PSW3H/image-asset.png) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61ebxAr1v+L._UX250_FMwebp_QL85_.jpg)
Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 29, 2022, 08:06:22 AM
Thanks : premont : - I've heard of Satoh - have the recording below in a De Visée playlist on Spotify - have not heard his Bach, so will check there; also listened to Rübsam on the lute-harpsichord doing the first 3 suites and enjoyed. Dave :)
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/545bb8dbe4b04f070d4e7f30/1450802093156-5NHPZ2EGCA111Z5PSW3H/image-asset.png) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61ebxAr1v+L._UX250_FMwebp_QL85_.jpg)
Concerning the de Visée - you have to imagine a perfect late summer's day, not unlike today in London in fact, old man De Visée retired from the court at Versailles, by the river in a provincial town - Tours maybe, or Chinon. He's got his lute with him and he's playing, reflecting on life and on death.
Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 29, 2022, 08:06:22 AM
Thanks : premont : - I've heard of Satoh - have the recording below in a De Visée playlist on Spotify - have not heard his Bach, so will check there; also listened to Rübsam on the lute-harpsichord doing the first 3 suites and enjoyed. Dave :)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61ebxAr1v+L._UX250_FMwebp_QL85_.jpg)
As you know Rübsam has recorded his own transcriptions for lute-harpsichord of both the solo violin S&P and the solo cello suites. I find his recording of the cello suites very good, the only thing to critisize is that he plays most of the fast dances so slow as to impair the feeling of dance. Maybe it is also his slow pace which makes me think that the violin S&P's are less successful. Pieces like the C-major fugue seem endless and become boring long before it is over. But listen yourself and see what you think.
I recently got this one:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/410lQjYeUiL._SY780_.jpg)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41f-zF87kdL._SY780_.jpg)
The Mandolin Partita can be described as "in the manner of Bach".
The Amazon listing has three videos (look under the alternate CD images) so you can try before you buy.
Just going through my plucked Bach (excluding harpsichord) at greater leisure.
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODExNTA5Ny4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NDk3NDA3MTV9)
Hopkinson Smith has also done the Partita for Solo Flute on lute!
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk4NDAxMi4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MjY1OTY4ODh9)
This was one of my earliest discs (bought around 1989) and still in the catalogue! The Lute Suite (=Cello Suite 5) is very fine, Allemande particularly.
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODE4OTQ4Ny4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NTc3MTYxMjB9)
Slava Grigoryan plays the Bach Cello Suites on two disks on a baritone guitar, which is a very fine instrument. I don't normally like guitar music because of the overtones (acoustic not cultural), but this instrument has fine overtones. He uses a normal clasical guitar for the Sixth Suite
Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 28, 2022, 11:07:20 AM
Bach's Violin & Cello Solo Works on Plucked Instruments - Any Fans! 8)
Last few days there has been some exchange of posts in the 'listening thread' regarding Bach's Cello Suites performed on plucked instruments, i.e. lutes and theorbos (or the 'German theorbo') w/ Hopkinson Smith vs. Pascal Monteilhet. In my collection, I currently have Smith doing the Violin Works on an MP3 DL and both Cello discs in a recent combined Naive wallet-box; also have the two Monteilhet recordings 'in the mail' and have owned the Nigel North 4-CD set for ages.
Now, I like all of these performers and also greatly enjoy these works on plucked instruments although this is often a controversial subject - attached are some reviews but not that many except for North. For those liking this 'transcription exercise', who are some of your favorites among those shown below and/or any others to promote into the top tiers? Thanks - Dave :)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/419v7906cdL.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81gEWBla02L._SL1429_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61M+TC0fgBL.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-ksctkv4/0/42a1c8e7/O/BachCSs1_2_3.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-CHRLBfq/0/d5c61186/O/BachCSs4_5_6.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/514rKndpYWL.jpg)
If you can access it, see what you think of Matthias Kläger's recordings. Guitar. They just caught my attention as rather poetic, that's all.
They're on Spotify here in the UK, and on YouTube. This is the link that I'm using
https://open.spotify.com/album/3CM10MvcyyhoULzV6CXcfb
https://www.discogs.com/sell/release/14609661?ev=rb
I forgot about this one - somehow in my head I only remembered the chaconne but there's also 1001 and 1004. The playing is very expressive - 1001 fugue presented like it's music in the empfindsamer style - a certain loss of poise but the sacrifice may be worth it.
https://www.discogs.com/release/17819872-Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Emma-Kirkby-Carlos-Mena-2-Jos%C3%A9-Miguel-Moreno-De-Occulta-Philosophia
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/8~8AAOSwnLdf~RPV/s-l400.jpg)
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 29, 2022, 01:37:59 PM
Just going through my plucked Bach (excluding harpsichord) at greater leisure.
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODExNTA5Ny4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NDk3NDA3MTV9) (https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk4NDAxMi4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MjY1OTY4ODh9)
Hopkinson Smith has also done the Partita for Solo Flute on lute!
This was one of my earliest discs (bought around 1989) and still in the catalogue! The Lute Suite (=Cello Suite 5) is very fine, Allemande particularly.
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODE4OTQ4Ny4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NTc3MTYxMjB9) (https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODM4ODU2OS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NTc3MTYxMDZ9)
Slava Grigoryan plays the Bach Cello Suites on two disks on a baritone guitar, which is a very fine instrument. I don't normally like guitar music because of the overtones (acoustic not cultural), but this instrument has fine overtones. He uses a normal clasical guitar for the Sixth Suite
Thanks
calyptorhynchus for pointing out Grigoryan (already have plenty of Smith & North as shown in my previous post) - listened to his Vol. 1 on Spotify and greatly enjoyed the guitar sound and the lower tuning - but hard to find the physical discs; both are at PrestoMusic for $15.50 each (plus usually $2 shipping per CD for me 'across the pond'); more expensive at JPC and used copies priced ridiculously at Discogs; otherwise DLs which I rarely do. Just put together a playlist of both volumes on Spotify - will take a listen on my den stereo. Dave :)
Quote from: Mandryka on July 30, 2022, 09:43:53 AM
If you can access it, see what you think of Matthias Kläger's recordings. Guitar. They just caught my attention as rather poetic, that's all.
They're on Spotify here in the UK, and on YouTube. This is the link that I'm using
https://open.spotify.com/album/3CM10MvcyyhoULzV6CXcfb
https://www.discogs.com/sell/release/14609661?ev=rb
Hi
Mandryka - was able to listen to Kläger this morning on Spotify - excellent! For those looking closely at the cover, he is doing only the sonatas from the 'Sonatas & Partitas' set (BWV 1001-1006). For those wanting all 6 works on guitar, I own the Frank Bungarten 2-disc set from MDG (excellent review here (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-6617/)); also have Hopkinson Smith on a baroque lute (MP3 DL - physical discs outrageously expensive or maybe I've not looked hard enough - ::)) Dave :)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61K8lVZuNQL._UX250_FMwebp_QL85_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71kkwbvvbPL._SL1200_.jpg)
(https://www.aeolus-music.com/var/shop_site/storage/images/alle-tontraeger/ae10044-bach-johann-sebastian-ciaccona/4451-6-eng-GB/AE10044-Bach-Johann-Sebastian-Ciaccona_imagelarge570.jpg)
BWV 1006 is for me not an easy suite for violinists and I can't really think of anyone who makes it sound as interesting as Asperen does here
I understand that BWV1006 is easier to play a Baroque violin than a modern one, though still a superhuman achievement.
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 05, 2022, 11:38:42 PM
I understand that BWV1006 is easier to play a Baroque violin than a modern one, though still a superhuman achievement.
That's interesting - I remember enjoying it on viol. This one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNXr-Zp3hYo&ab_channel=SusanneHeinrich-Topic
Quote from: Mandryka on August 06, 2022, 12:54:21 AM
That's interesting - I remember enjoying it on viol. This one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNXr-Zp3hYo&ab_channel=SusanneHeinrich-Topic
Thanks, I'll listen to that, I'm always ready to listen to Bach arrangements. Funny that any more recent music seems to resist arrangement much more.
As to the Baroque violin I think the bridge is flatter so it's easier to bow chords. Modern violins raised the bridge so the strings are fractionally further apart, meaning you can play notes louder... please any violinists correct this if it's wrong.
There were also some differences between Baroque and modern bows that affect playing technique.
There's also something called the curved bow which supposedly was in use in Bach's day. I have this.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51gABkEC5SL._SY780_.jpg)
It's been years since I listened to it, but I don't remember hearing any important differences from standard bows.
Quote from: JBS on August 06, 2022, 01:34:44 PM
There were also some differences between Baroque and modern bows that affect playing technique.
There's also something called the curved bow which supposedly was in use in Bach's day. I have this.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51gABkEC5SL._SY780_.jpg)
It's been years since I listened to it, but I don't remember hearing any important differences from standard bows.
I culled this some years ago.
Firstly I didn't think his interpretation was that engaging.
Secondly he lets the long notes sound a bit longer than on can do with a standard bow, but since one already hears the notes in question in one's inner ear, his efforts add nothing of practical interest.
Listening once again to JSB's Preludes and Fugues for organ. Just amazing...
However, as always, they leave me thinking why did no one else write anything that gets within any distance of the Bach. I do have disks of music by Buxtehude and Pachelbel, but they aren't anything like the Bach.
I have to say very little other organ music does it for me.
Any suggestions as to how I might change my mind?
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 23, 2023, 12:35:58 AMListening once again to JSB's Preludes and Fugues for organ. Just amazing...
However, as always, they leave me thinking why did no one else write anything that gets within any distance of the Bach. I do have disks of music by Buxtehude and Pachelbel, but they aren't anything like the Bach.
I have to say very little other organ music does it for me.
Any suggestions as to how I might change my mind?
It's really hard to know how to respond to this. Bach was very good at writing music, but there were others who were not bad too.
What I suggest is this - buy a good compilation set like Leonhardt's Organ in the Renaissance and Barqoue - that way you'll hear a wide selection of other composers and you can see which ones tickle your fancy.
This
https://www.classicselectworld.com/products/ammerbach-blitheman-bohm-organ-in-renaissance-baroque
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 23, 2023, 12:35:58 AMListening once again to JSB's Preludes and Fugues for organ. Just amazing...
However, as always, they leave me thinking why did no one else write anything that gets within any distance of the Bach. I do have disks of music by Buxtehude and Pachelbel, but they aren't anything like the Bach.
I have to say very little other organ music does it for me.
Any suggestions as to how I might change my mind?
Try Krebs.
He was a student of Bach, and it shows, but he wasn't a mere imitator of his teacher.
Quote from: Florestan on November 05, 2023, 10:08:09 AMIn another thread I sarcastically alluded to a fictitious transcription of Johannes-Passion for solo violin. Little did I suspect that I wasn't actually far off the reality mark: Mozart's Requiem has been transcribed for solo piano! Human vainglory has indeed no limits. ( @Madiel ) ;D
on a slight tangent there is a
theory that the famous Bach Toccata & Fugue in D minor started out as a solo violin work (apparently there is no manuscript original) so you can - allegedly authentically - play a solo violin version of said Toccata & Fugue - enjoy!
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 05, 2023, 10:41:17 AMthere is a theory that the famous Bach Toccata & Fugue in D minor started out as a solo violin work (apparently there is no manuscript original)
Who came up with this theory and what is the basis for it, I wonder?
Quote from: Florestan on November 05, 2023, 10:45:02 AMWho came up with this theory and what is the basis for it, I wonder?
We had a long discussion of the BWV 565 in the Bach on the organ thread around 2011 from post 1322:
https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,638.1320.html
Quote from: Florestan on November 05, 2023, 10:45:02 AMWho came up with this theory and what is the basis for it, I wonder?
The theory that it might have been a work for a string instrument (I've read that in addition to violin, cello or lute might have been a possibility) and was later transcribed for organ, is that the fugue subject is not as thoroughly developed as are most of Bach's keyboard fugues since strings can't cope with as much counterpoint, and it does not lie as idiomatically under the fingers on a keyboard as it does on string instruments.
Quote from: Florestan on November 05, 2023, 10:45:02 AMWho came up with this theory and what is the basis for it, I wonder?
I seem to remember that the edition I have somewhere is by Baroque specialist Jaap Schroder and that it includes a forward that explains his reasoning for this reconstruction. But I see online/on YouTube now there are quite a lot of other arrangements as well. No idea how scholarly many/any of them are. It is rather fun to play though as a solo violinist.... sorry
Quote from: Steinway D on November 05, 2023, 12:00:51 PMThe theory that it might have been a work for a string instrument (I've read that in addition to violin, cello or lute might have been a possibility) and was later transcribed for organ, is that the fugue subject is not as thoroughly developed as are most of Bach's keyboard fugues since strings can't cope with as much counterpoint, and it does not lie as idiomatically under the fingers on a keyboard as it does on string instruments.
I have Manze's recording. At least in the version he played it sounds native to the violin.
Quote from: Steinway D on November 05, 2023, 12:00:51 PMThe theory that it might have been a work for a string instrument (I've read that in addition to violin, cello or lute might have been a possibility) and was later transcribed for organ, is that the fugue subject is not as thoroughly developed as are most of Bach's keyboard fugues since strings can't cope with as much counterpoint, and it does not lie as idiomatically under the fingers on a keyboard as it does on string instruments.
Well, another potential reason for it not being as thoroughly developed as a Bach keyboard fugue would be it might not be by Bach...
Quote from: Madiel on November 06, 2023, 01:29:40 AMWell, another potential reason for it not being as thoroughly developed as a Bach keyboard fugue would be it might not be by Bach...
Well, yes, there's that! :)
Quote from: Steinway D on November 06, 2023, 07:17:56 AMWell, yes, there's that! :)
Oh my, maybe it's by.....
Pachelbel? :o
Those who deny that BWV 565 was composed by Bach have a serious problem. They have absolutely no qualified suggestion as to who else the composer could be. Of course, the composer may be an unknown (that is, also unmentioned by his contemporaries) person who has only composed this work, or where the rest has been lost. But BWV 565 has certain unmistakable Bachian features, especially the work's violent accumulative energy. This applies to both the opening and the closing toccata parts, which can hardly have been composed for anything other than the organ - or at least reworked for organ beyond recognition, but also to some extent to the fugue part itself, which by the way in its figurations gives strong reminders of other Bach works, and may very well be a transcription of a very early (from first Weimar period) work for a stringed instrument, probably the violin, where one can recognize a bit of the way of writing (e.g. the motoric episodes between the fugal sections) in the much more perfect fugue from the solo sonata in G minor.
*shrug* I can't say that I associate Bach with "violent accumulative energy". Whatever. I just know that whatever "unmistakable" Bachian features it might have, there equally have been plenty of people who've sensed that it doesn't entirely sound like other Bach pieces. There are a number of possible reasons for that, including it involving transcription and being from an early part of his career.
Quote from: Madiel on November 07, 2023, 05:23:30 AM*shrug* I can't say that I associate Bach with "violent accumulative energy". Whatever. I just know that whatever "unmistakable" Bachian features it might have, there equally have been plenty of people who've sensed that it doesn't entirely sound like other Bach pieces. There are a number of possible reasons for that, including it involving transcription and being from an early part of his career.
Or maybe he simply had a bad day. Even Homer nods. :D
I do remember a theory--not sure of who originated it-that BWV 565 (in its organ form) was used by Bach either as a work showing off his own abilities as composer and organist, or as a work to test/demonstrate the capacities of new organs.
Quote from: Madiel on November 07, 2023, 05:23:30 AM"violent accumulative energy".
Strong cumulative energy might be a better way to express it as e.g. in many organ fugues (BWV 548, 538, 582, 547).
I also miss an explanation of what in BWV 565 isn't entirely Bachian sounding. Already the fact that the work is unusual and original in it's conception is a Bachian trait.
Quote from: JBS on November 07, 2023, 05:42:54 AMI do remember a theory--not sure of who originated it-that BWV 565 (in its organ form) was used by Bach either as a work showing off his own abilities as composer and organist, or as a work to test/demonstrate the capacities of new organs.
An unsubstantiated but never-the-less very likely idea.
This all makes me think of Spike Milligan's Puckoon
With Rafferty's weight on the cross bar, Milligan pedalled home from the meeting via the Holy Drinker. They had tried to get into the cheap corner but were crowded out. But never mind, no matter what price you paid for liquor, it always tasted better.
'My lord, you're heavy,' Milligan grumbled.
'Don't ferget half of it is you, Milligan.'
'I'm only complaining about your half, which after all is the biggest.'
'Well, I'm grateful for the lift, Milligan.'
'With you holding me by the throat, I had no option.'
'It's just my way of askin'.'
A lemon-peel moon rose into the cold sky. Milligan whistled.
'Dat's a nice tune.'
'It's part of the Eroica Symphony – I wrote it.'
'You write the Eroica?'
'Yes.'
'What about Beethoven?'
'Yes, I wrote that as well.'
'You bloody liar.'
Cheerfully he whistled his next composition, Grieg's A Minor Concerto by Milligan. Life wasn't too bad. The trouble with Man was, even while he was having a good time, he didn't appreciate it. Why, thought Milligan, this very moment might be the happiest in me life. The very thought of it made him miserable.58:47 here -- very good indeed,
What I find more mystifying than the various ideas around the conception of BWV565, is why the work is so popular to begin with. There clearly is something attractive in that work others hear that I do not. I don't really hear very much that is compelling in it. If it proved to be by someone other than Bach or ceased to exist it would make little difference to me.
Quote from: atardecer on November 07, 2023, 05:03:00 PMWhat I find more mystifying than the various ideas around the conception of BWV565, is why the work is so popular to begin with. There clearly is something attractive in that work others hear that I do not. I don't really hear very much that is compelling in it. If it proved to be by someone other than Bach or ceased to exist it would make little difference to me.
I really like it, and I can't abide most solo organ music.
The Wikipedia article on the piece implies its fame is linked to Stokowski's transcription and its use in Disney's
Fantasia.
Whoever wrote the Wikipedia article seems to have had some fun writing this part.
Quote.... it was not until the 20th century that it rose above the average notability of an organ piece by Bach.[22][25] The work's appearance (in an orchestral transcription by Leopold Stokowski) in the 1940s Walt Disney film Fantasia contributed to its popularity,[26] around which time scholars started to seriously doubt its attribution to Bach.[27]
The composition has been deemed both "particularly suited to the organ"[14] and "strikingly unorganistic".[28] It has been seen as united by a single ground-thought,[29] but also as containing "passages which have no connection whatever with the chief idea".[14] It has been called "entirely a thing of virtuosity"[30] yet also described as being "not so difficult as it sounds".[21] It has been described as some sort of program music depicting a storm,[30] but also as abstract music, quite the opposite of program music depicting a storm.[31] It has been presented as an emanation of the galant style, yet too dramatic to be anything near that style.[22] Its period of origin has been assumed to have been as early as around 1704,[32] and as late as the 1750s.[10] Its defining characteristics have been associated with extant compositions by Bach (BWV 531, 549a, 578, 911, 914, 922 and several of the solo violin sonatas and partitas),[10][14][33][34][35] and by others (including Nicolaus Bruhns and Johann Heinrich Buttstett),[10] as well as with untraceable earlier versions for other instruments and/or by other composers.[10] It has been deemed too simplistic for it to have been written down by Bach,[10] and too much a stroke of genius to have been composed by anyone else but Bach.[36]
What remains is "the most famous organ work in existence",[37] that in its rise to fame was helped by various arrangements, including bombastic piano settings,[38] versions for full symphonic orchestra,[39] and alternative settings for more modest solo instruments.[10]
BTW
Perhaps this group of posts re BWV 565 might be moved to a Bach thread?
A thought about this attribution problem, not only with Bach. It assumes that composers are "programmed" a certain way and unable to step outside the program.
For instance, I can easily prove that Beethoven didn't write the Op. 131 Quartet. For starters, LvB had never written a quartet with 7 (!) movements before. Secondly, he had never linked all the movements in a quartet in that way before. Finally, he had never begun a previous quartet with a fugue. Clearly, Beethoven didn't write this piece; it must have been written by his contemporary and friend Reicha, who was known for his love of experimentation.
You can do this with other composers. Clearly, Sibelius didn't write the 7th Symphony, since he had never written a 1-mvt. symphony before. Mozart didn't write the "Prague" Symphony, because it doesn't have a minuet, an all his other late symphonies have minuets. Brahms didn't write the 4th Symphony, because it ends with a passacaglia, something he had never previously used for a finale.
Etc. I guess some musicologists just need something to write about.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 08, 2023, 09:26:12 AMA thought about this attribution problem, not only with Bach. It assumes that composers are "programmed" a certain way and unable to step outside the program.
For instance, I can easily prove that Beethoven didn't write the Op. 131 Quartet. For starters, LvB had never written a quartet with 7 (!) movements before. Secondly, he had never linked all the movements in a quartet in that way before. Finally, he had never begun a previous quartet with a fugue. Clearly, Beethoven didn't write this piece; it must have been written by his contemporary and friend Reicha, who was known for his love of experimentation.
You can do this with other composers. Clearly, Sibelius didn't write the 7th Symphony, since he had never written a 1-mvt. symphony before. Mozart didn't write the "Prague" Symphony, because it doesn't have a minuet, an all his other late symphonies have minuets. Brahms didn't write the 4th Symphony, because it ends with a passacaglia, something he had never previously used for a finale.
Etc. I guess some musicologists just need something to write about.
There are masses which used to be thought to be by Josquin on the basis of style, but in the event scholars now think they are likely by Bauldeweyn. Style isn't a very reliable indicator of authorship, for the reasons you point out. Scholars look at other things -- the manuscripts for example.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 08, 2023, 09:26:12 AMA thought about this attribution problem, not only with Bach. It assumes that composers are "programmed" a certain way and unable to step outside the program.
For instance, I can easily prove that Beethoven didn't write the Op. 131 Quartet. For starters, LvB had never written a quartet with 7 (!) movements before. Secondly, he had never linked all the movements in a quartet in that way before. Finally, he had never begun a previous quartet with a fugue. Clearly, Beethoven didn't write this piece; it must have been written by his contemporary and friend Reicha, who was known for his love of experimentation.
You can do this with other composers. Clearly, Sibelius didn't write the 7th Symphony, since he had never written a 1-mvt. symphony before. Mozart didn't write the "Prague" Symphony, because it doesn't have a minuet, an all his other late symphonies have minuets. Brahms didn't write the 4th Symphony, because it ends with a passacaglia, something he had never previously used for a finale.
Etc. I guess some musicologists just need something to write about.
This is an absurd simplification. Style does not consist of the number of movements. The passacaglias attributed to Bach, Brahms and Shostakovich are not stylistically interchangeable just because they're in the passacaglia form. The question would not be whether Brahms would ever write a passacaglia, the question would be what would a passacaglia written by Brahms sound like.
Another famous one is Brahms's Haydn variations, which are actually variations on a theme by someone else (can't remember who! Pleyel maybe.)
Quote from: Madiel on November 08, 2023, 01:11:11 PMThis is an absurd simplification. Style does not consist of the number of movements.
True, I was just using it as an example of structural innovation. Stylistically, I could find examples of Bartok sounding like R. Strauss, Janacek sounding like Dvorak, Beethoven sounding famously like Scott Joplin, and plenty of others. Great composers don't always sound like we expect them to, which is one of the things that makes them great.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 08, 2023, 03:02:32 PMTrue, I was just using it as an example of structural innovation. Stylistically, I could find examples of Bartok sounding like R. Strauss, Janacek sounding like Dvorak, Beethoven sounding famously like Scott Joplin, and plenty of others. Great composers don't always sound like we expect them to, which is one of the things that makes them great.
And yet I'm sure you have an idea in your head of what people "sound like", otherwise the comparisons you just made wouldn't work in the first place. You can't say that Beethoven sounds like Joplin unless you have a notion of a characteristic Joplin sound.
The stylistic lines between composers are not bright divisions. They are blurry. It's probability based. But presenting a straw man caricature of what musicologists are trying to do, using the weakest evidence you can possibly think of and suggesting this is the kind of evidence that is used as proof, is not helpful.
Quote from: Mandryka on November 08, 2023, 01:11:44 PMAnother famous one is Brahms's Haydn variations, which are actually variations on a theme by someone else (can't remember who! Pleyel maybe.)
The authorship of that wind divertimento is dubious but Pleyel seems a better candidate than Haydn although the theme might be really some chorale tune as it is called, so still from an older source.
I don't know about the details of BWV 565.
But there are lots of pieces by Bach where we know they are arrangements (like the solo keyboard concerti after Vivaldi and others or the 4 hpschd concerto after Vivaldi), there are also a bunch that were considered by Bach but turned out to be by someone else (the 2 violin trio sonata by Goldberg, some other pieces by Bach's eldest sons, 2 cantatas or so by Telemann).
There is another batch of works of which it was at least debated for decades if they were based on a non-Bach original (some of the keyboard concerti) so there are quite a few cases from which one could see how arrangements typically look like.
We even have by Bach himself an "organ concerto movement"(in some cantata) and a solo violin version based on the same material (prelude of E major Partita).
For what it's worth, when I first heard the Toccata and Fugue in d-minor it didn't "sound like Bach" to me (based on my relatively spare familiarity with his other organ pieces) and I could never figure out what part of it was the "fugue." With the suggestion that it was the transcription of a violin piece things fell into place for me, because a lot of the figuration sounded like typical violin style of the era, and I could imagine the enormous chords as fleshing out of arpeggiation. I could imagine it as something Bach might have thrown together to test the "lungs" of a new organ.
Whatever it is, I like it.
Based purely on how it sounds, it comes across more like a forgery to me. Something along the lines of Albinoni's Adagio. Somebody composed something they felt was Bach-esque and passed it off as Bach.
Looking into it a little further it appears the manuscript it was found in was not in Bach's hand and was allegedly written down in the mid 1730s. Assuming this date is accurate, by that time Bach was sufficiently well known to where it is possible someone attempted to copy his style and pass off the work as being composed by Bach. This kind of thing was not that uncommon in those days. I've read it happened often to Haydn with many fake Haydn works circulating in his time.
The manuscript does come from someone with a plausible connection to Bach. And we aren't dealing with the kind of unscrupulous publishers who cashed in on a famous name. But we are dealing with a route that is thought to have created at least one other transcription.
There are a range of possible answers as to exactly how the piece ended up in its present form. Probably what's most important is whether someone likes listening to it. It's organ music so that is the main explanation for me only hearing it once in the last 15 years or so...
A big difference is that one could make good money with fake Haydn in the 1770-90s but hardly with a by then somewhat old fashioned (more 1710s style) piece for solo organ by Bach in the 1730s.
Bach barely got Clavierübung and a few more (Chorales etc.) works printed in his lifetime, so there would have been no incentive for forgery.
If BWV 565 is not by Bach, it's not an intentional forgery but most likely arranged/copied for study from a slightly earlier composer by JSB or a close associate (son, student) or maybe composed by a son/student (like the g minor ouverture/suite (prob WFB) or the C major 2 violin sonata (Goldberg)).
When I was a kid in the 1980s it was the quintessential ("spooky") organ piece, so everyone took it as totally typical Bach (which does not say much, though, as the "typical Haydn" Ladykiller's serenade is in fact not by Haydn!)
Quote from: Jo498 on November 10, 2023, 01:51:15 AMA big difference is that one could make good money with fake Haydn in the 1770-90s but hardly with a by then somewhat old fashioned (more 1710s style) piece for solo organ by Bach in the 1730s.
Bach barely got Clavierübung and a few more (Chorales etc.) works printed in his lifetime, so there would have been no incentive for forgery.
If BWV 565 is not by Bach, it's not an intentional forgery but most likely arranged/copied for study from a slightly earlier composer by JSB or a close associate (son, student) or maybe composed by a son/student (like the g minor ouverture/suite (prob WFB) or the C major 2 violin sonata (Goldberg)).
When I was a kid in the 1980s it was the quintessential ("spooky") organ piece, so everyone took it as totally typical Bach (which does not say much, though, as the "typical Haydn" Ladykiller's serenade is in fact not by Haydn!)
Possibly, but for one thing not all forgeries are for financial purposes. As in the case of the Albinoni I mentioned, it was something along the lines of a hoax. I think sometimes people do these things for other reasons. You could be right about the financial incentive not being there, but I don't see how you could be sure. Bach was well known throughout Germany and Italy in his lifetime. Giovanni Battista Martini was quoted in a letter saying "he is thoroughly known and admired not only in Germany but throughout our Italy. I will only say that I think it would be difficult to find someone in the profession who could surpass him." That quote was from a letter written 3 months before Bach's death, however a reputation like that wouldn't spring up over-night. It seems Bach was fairly well known as among the greatest (if not greatest) keyboardist/organist in that part of the world. So I don't think it is so unlikely that someone who was more obscure would have a better chance at financial compensation for an organ piece with Bach's name on it, rather than their own.
It could be a situation similar to what some suspect about Beethoven's Für Elise (and similar to what Jo498 speculated about), that it is a transcription or arrangement somebody made of a different work and they changed and simplified some things.
The forgery theory doesn't make much sense to me. There are various organ works that are falsely attributed to Bach, but it is not my impression that people were forging Bach. I thought it was because after Bach's revival people were scouring their closets and the bottoms of their bird cages for some manuscript they could convince themselves were by Bach.
My unsubstantiated guess is that the work is a transcription of a now lost piece for violin solo maybe by Bach, or maybe by some composer that caught Bach's interest. Bach did transcript pieces by Italian composers for organ.
I don't think the comparison to the Albinoi Adagio is illuminating. According to what I read in Wikipedia, Giazotto never claimed it was a piece by Albinoni. When he published it he described it as being based on a manuscript fragment containing a continuo part by Albinoni, discovered in a library in Dresden after WWI, which he elaborated. The only dicey part is that he never produced the manuscript fragment with the continuo part.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on November 10, 2023, 04:37:09 AMThe forgery theory doesn't make much sense to me. There are various organ works that are falsely attributed to Bach, but it is not my impression that people were forging Bach. I thought it was because after Bach's revival people were scouring their closets and the bottoms of their bird cages for some manuscript they could convince themselves were by Bach.
My unsubstantiated guess is that the work is a transcription of a now lost piece for violin solo maybe by Bach, or maybe by some composer that caught Bach's interest. Bach did transcript pieces by Italian composers for organ.
I don't think the comparison to the Albinoi Adagio is illuminating. According to what I read in Wikipedia, Giazotto never claimed it was a piece by Albinoni. When he published it he described it as being based on a manuscript fragment containing a continuo part by Albinoni, discovered in a library in Dresden after WWI, which he elaborated.
There are tons of baroque keyboard pieces with the form of BWV 565 -- alternating sections of free fantasy type music and strict counterpoint. Bach was well aware of this idea about structuring music for organ and harpsichord.
I know nothing about baroque violin music actually. Is this form a baroque violin form?
Quote from: Mandryka on November 10, 2023, 04:57:15 AMI know nothing about baroque violin music actually. Is this form a baroque violin form?
I'm not referring to the form of the piece, but the alternation of two notes, one the melody and the other a sort of pedal. I recall it being used at some points during the piece.
The violin theory is not bad. The issue I have with it is even in works for solo violin the counterpoint never sounds the way it does in BWV 565 (particularly the first section of BWV 565). There are works that I've heard on both violin and keyboard for example BWV 1003 and regardless of instrument, the approach to part writing seems different.
The first section of BWV 565 is what stands out to me. It doesn't seem similar to any other works of Bach, solo violin or otherwise. Even if we are looking at early Bach, there is nothing else I know of like that. Though he explores different styles in his career, his preference for a kind of harmonic richness is constant throughout all of these stylistic changes, except in that one work.
Quote from: Mandryka on November 10, 2023, 04:57:15 AMI know nothing about baroque violin music actually. Is this form a baroque violin form?
No, not a common baroque violin form. Only a very few strictly solo violin pieces from the baroque age have survived, and almost all the so called solo violin music from that time is for violin and continuo. Some of the surviving strictly solo violin pieces are Biber's passacaglia and pieces by Vilsmeyer and von Westhoff in suite form. One exception is the "alia fantasia" by Nicola Matteis - a piece consisting essentially of a long sequence of shifting harmonies probably meant to be arpeggiated and/or ornated. So to my knowledge a strict solo violin piece in the shape of BWV 565 is rather unusual. This confirms in my opinion that Bach may be the composer. The hallmark of many of his works is that they are are unique like BWV 565 because they are without real precedens. If it is by Bach it must be a rather youthful work because of the rather simple harmonies and counterpoint.
I have not taken Telemann's Fantasias for solo violin into account. They were composed 1735 and are irrelevant in the context of BWV 565 and more relevant in the context of Bach's Partitas for solo violin if of course the other way round.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on November 10, 2023, 05:05:27 AMI'm not referring to the form of the piece, but the alternation of two notes, one the melody and the other a sort of pedal. I recall it being used at some points during the piece.
Like in the Piece D'orgue? Lentement., (which for all I know may be disputed attribution too!)
@Pohjolas Daughter -- look at the stops in the video! At around 6:50 you can see someone doing what I used to do at school.
Quote from: Mandryka on November 10, 2023, 07:28:53 AMLike in the Piece D'orgue? Lentement., (which for all I know may be disputed attribution too!)
Where did you get this? It is true that there is no autograph from Bach's hand, but several of the existing manuscripts were written by some of Bach's closest students, and they list Bach as the composer. In Williams' classic work on Bach's organ music (2002) there is no suggestion that the work was not authentic.
Quote from: premont on November 10, 2023, 08:56:26 AMWhere did you get this? It is true that there is no autograph from Bach's hand, but several of the existing manuscripts were written by some of Bach's closest students, and they list Bach as the composer. In Williams' classic work on Bach's organ music (2002) there is no suggestion that the work was not authentic.
Nowhere -- when I said "for all I know" I just meant that I'd never investigated the matter.
Quote from: Mandryka on November 10, 2023, 07:28:53 AM
Like in the Piece D'orgue? Lentement., (which for all I know may be disputed attribution too!)
@Pohjolas Daughter -- look at the stops in the video! At around 6:50 you can see someone doing what I used to do at school.
Thank you for uploading this. Did you follow along with the score or did the organist signal to you when to change the settings? Just curious as to how this works (worked). :)
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 10, 2023, 10:29:37 AMThank you for uploading this. Did you follow along with the score or did the organist signal to you when to change the settings? Just curious as to how this works (worked). :)
PD
We'd talk about it beforehand, and there may have been a signal of some sort, I knew what to do more or less, and when.
Doeselaar talks about how he chose the registrations here. There's a tremendous use of the Zimbelstern on Roland Goetz's Pachelbel CD -- unfortunately it's not online to share. (in
Vom Himmel Hoch)
Quote from: Mandryka on November 10, 2023, 10:26:11 AMNowhere -- when I said "for all I know" I just meant that I'd never investigated the matter.
Well, then I got you wrong.
Quote from: San Antone on December 08, 2019, 02:39:57 PMI just began listening to the Bach Foundation cantata recordings:
So far, I am finding this cycle to be extremely well done and very enjoyable. The soloists sound to my ears all very good, and the period orchestra plays well as does the choir sing. All in all this cycle is another contender to join the top tier of cantata recordings, at least IMO.
They have also recorded the Mass in B Minor, St. Matthew Passion and St. John Passion along with 21 29 volumes so far of the cantatas.
Their website (https://www.bachstiftung.ch/).
Thanks for the recommendation. I just tracked one down--several years after your original post. I'm listening to 42.
I'm not crazy about the recording/mixing, but love the performance. A real pleasure.
[Cross post from the main Listening thread.]
From the Cortot box
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71K8N81M5aL._UF1000,1000_QL80_FMwebp_.jpg)
In a way, a landmark recording in which Cortot's role is mainly conductor.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/711F4U6EOPL._UF1000,1000_QL80_FMwebp_.jpg)
The first* recording of the complete Brandenburg Concertos, dating from 1931-1933. Cortot is the piano soloist in the Fifth Concerto.
Obviously, modern instruments, somewhat tinny sound. In this set, the first CD opens with F. Couperin's 8th "Concert dans le gout theatral" in G, arranged by Cortot. The orchestra is that of the school he founded** in 1919.
*according to the set's liner notes
**the liner notes are silent on any help from others he received in doing this
Latest episode in the Conversations With Tyler podcast:
Masaaki Suzuki on Interpreting Bach (https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL2Nvd2VuY29udm9zLmxpYnN5bi5jb20vcnNz/episode/ZWJjNDI2OTUtZjkxNS00Mjc2LTk5YzYtZTZjOTdhMzk0ZTMw?sa=X&ved=0CAQQ8qgGahgKEwj4mND5uNGEAxUAAAAAHQAAAAAQpEc)
Quote from: SimonNZ on February 29, 2024, 03:19:11 PMLatest episode in the Conversations With Tyler podcast:
Masaaki Suzuki on Interpreting Bach (https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL2Nvd2VuY29udm9zLmxpYnN5bi5jb20vcnNz/episode/ZWJjNDI2OTUtZjkxNS00Mjc2LTk5YzYtZTZjOTdhMzk0ZTMw?sa=X&ved=0CAQQ8qgGahgKEwj4mND5uNGEAxUAAAAAHQAAAAAQpEc)
Thanks for that link. I hadn't heard about these podcasts before now.
PD
Question: Does Opfer have a global structure with a climax etc? The chorales in CU3?
This is from John Butt's book on the Bach passions -- it's not addressing my question, but it prompted my question, which is really about the "finish" of the whole.
Bach's more abstract collections that research a particular issue of compositional theory might seem to presuppose an even earlier mindset (i.e. that predating the era when music served text), which assumed a continuity between the fabric of the music and the structure of the cosmos, and thus the survival of a form of musical thought that was yet to be disenchanted. Nevertheless, most of the pieces in The Art of Fugue or The Musical Offering display some signs of 'finish'.33 This might be a consistency of figuration going beyond the contrapuntal tasks at hand, or a sense of trajectory, tension or culmination – all of which give the pieces a sort of individuality or 'self-consciousness', as a supplement to their didactic purposes.
Butt, John. Bach's Dialogue with Modernity (p. 14)
Quote from: Mandryka on March 17, 2024, 07:55:01 AMQuestion: Does Opfer have a global structure with a climax etc? The chorales in CU3?
This is from John Butt's book on the Bach passions -- it's not addressing my question, but it prompted my question, which is really about the "finish" of the whole.
Bach's more abstract collections that research a particular issue of compositional theory might seem to presuppose an even earlier mindset (i.e. that predating the era when music served text), which assumed a continuity between the fabric of the music and the structure of the cosmos, and thus the survival of a form of musical thought that was yet to be disenchanted. Nevertheless, most of the pieces in The Art of Fugue or The Musical Offering display some signs of 'finish'.33 This might be a consistency of figuration going beyond the contrapuntal tasks at hand, or a sense of trajectory, tension or culmination – all of which give the pieces a sort of individuality or 'self-consciousness', as a supplement to their didactic purposes.
Butt, John. Bach's Dialogue with Modernity (p. 14)
The "finish" of the individual pieces certainly goes beyond mere didactics. But I don't think there is any obvious "arch" within these collections. For the AoF or MO there isn't really an order about everyone agrees anyway, is there?
Or in CÜ 3 the biggest pieces are the frame and today the Eb major P & F are usually played together. Also, some chorale settings (like the "small" manualiter" ones) seem clearly alternatives to each other, to be chosen depending on the organ at hand or the kind of service.
I read once (maybe Martin Geck's Bach book, the only fat one I read) a comparison with baroque showcases or cabinets of curiosities that display special things, jewelry etc but not in a systematic fashion. Of course there is some system in these works like the rising complexity of the fugues but the order is not clearly or uniquely determined by this and they would not have played all of them
anyway.
Quote from: Jo498 on March 31, 2024, 12:25:41 AMFor the AoF or MO there isn't really an order about everyone agrees anyway, is there?
Well as you can imagine there's a lot of ideas about that. It does seem likely that Bach intended an order, with a four part fugue at the end (It's mentioned in the CPE Bach/Agricola/Mizler obituary.)
Re Opfer, Dantone wtites this
Ursula Kirkendale, argued also by A. Basso in Frau Musika. According to the scholar, a connection can he drawn between the structure of The Musical Offering and the outline of an oration as set down by Quintiliano in his Institutio Oratorio. Following this outline, each part of The Musical Offering corresponds to a rule of rhetoric, that is, to the different functions of an address or narrative. Thus the work would be divided in two parts. The introduction (exordium) would include respectively the Ricercari in 3 and 6 voices, leaving the tasks of narration and argumentation to the several Canons. The conclusion then of Bach's discourse would he the Sonata and the Canon perpemus — the first of these, freed from strict contrapuntal formality, is suited to move the emotions and sentiments; the second piece stands as the definitive, irrefutable demonstration of reason and of intellectual rigour.and the first edition suggest an order of course -- this again from Dantone
One hundred copies were printed; each consisting of five smaller sheaves or booklets, each of which contained its own numbered pages. In the first such booklet we find the frontispiece with its dedication to Frederick 11 of Prussia, and it is here that the work is presented as an offering to the Sovereign. The second booklet contains the Ricercara 3 and the Canon Perpetuus Super Thema Regium. The third contains diverse Canons; the fourth the Ricercara 6 as well as the Canons for 2 and for 4 voices. Lastly the fifth book contains the Sonata Sopr'il Soggetto Reale and a final Canon perpetuus.
𝑻𝒉𝒆 𝑷𝒂𝒔𝒔𝒊𝒐 𝒔𝒆𝒄𝒖𝒏𝒅𝒖𝒎 𝑱𝒐𝒂𝒏𝒏𝒆𝒎 or 𝑺𝒕. 𝑱𝒐𝒉𝒏 𝑷𝒂𝒔𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 by 𝑱𝒐𝒉𝒂𝒏𝒏 𝑺𝒆𝒃𝒂𝒔𝒕𝒊𝒂𝒏 𝑩𝒂𝒄𝒉 was first performed on this day 7 April 1724, at Good Friday Vespers at the St. Nicholas Church.
J.S. Bach - St. John Passion
Marc Minkowski and Les Musiciens de Louvre