Bach's Bungalow

Started by aquablob, April 06, 2007, 02:42:33 PM

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JBS

I think the basic matters can be summed up as
1) John's Gospel, which is supposed to be the last of the four canonical gospels to be put into writing (and therefore is most impacted by the growing split between the Jewish people and the primitive Church), has the most negative presentation of the Jews of the four, and therefore nore often used to justify Christian anti-Semitism
2) Luther was a virulent anti-Semite, and left a legacy of antiSemitism in the Lutheran Churches that was not fully expunged until after WWII.
3) Anti-Semitism was endemic in the 18th century, throughout Europe, often as a low level bigotry.
4) I know of no evidence that shows what Bach's attitude to the Jews was, whether better, worse, or average compared to his contemporaries. The same applies to almost every composer of the era.
5) But the chain of custody which kept Bach's reputation alive until Mendelssohn began the official revival included some of the assimilated Jewish families of Berlin to which the Mendelssohns belonged. Presumably they would have not been so keen on Bach if they felt he had more than the usual portion of anti-Semitism.
6) And while his Wikipedia biography implies he was raised as a Christian from birth or at least starting in childhood, one of the poets who supplied  Bach with a number of cantata texts, Salomon Franck, has a name that can be called typically Jewish. So Franck may have come from a family that converted to Christianity from Judaism.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

Jo498

It is important to distinguish the "old" antisemitism that was mostly religious anti-judaism and the "modern" antisemitism that was mostly racist/biologist (at least in the late 19th/early 20th century, not sure about contemporary antisemitism that seems more a mix between biology, culture and lots of conspiracy theory). Luther turned antijudaist partly because attempts at a kind of coalition with representative of Judaism in its time had utterly failed (Luther had probably had totally unrealistic ideas how they would get along better with protestantism or how he could convince Jews to accept protestantism, so he took a sharp turn and became virulently anti-judaist). But I think that in Bach's and even in Mendelssohn's time an assimilated and especially a converted Jew was quickly accepted (at least a generation later or so the Jewish grandparents did not matter anymore). So this would have been the case for someone like Salomon Franck, I guess.
This changed in the later 19th century with modern racism. (I think Mendelssohn who was a baptized protestant experienced far more antisemitism posthumously than in his lifetime.) But it still came as a shock to many perfectly assimilated and often baptized German Jews that they were suddenly not considered German anymore by the Nazis.

As for the Gospel of John, it's, well, Gospel, so a Christian cannot simply change or skip text passages even if they unfairly blame the Jews more than the Romans.

Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Mandryka

#662
It's not a question of blaming Jews at all. Take, for example, John 3:18, which Bach set

QuoteWhoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

3:18 is expanded on elsewhere in John, in ways which may not be very nice to Jews. Take for example 3:36

QuoteHe that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

and 12:48

QuoteThere is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

Now listen to the stern way Bach sets John 3:18 in the closing chorus of cantata 68

https://www.youtube.com/v/n2zHuGTQ9X4&feature=emb_logo
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

An equally thought provoking example is in Cantata 44, which opens with John 16:2

QuoteThey will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God

The they here are the Jews.

The cantata, which we have seen opens with a prediction of Jewish violence against Christians, responds to that threat with an aria and recitative

QuoteAh, God, how much heartache
do I encounter at this time!
The narrow path is full of trouble
that I shall follow to heaven.

The Antichrist,
the great monster,
seeks with sword and fire
to persecute the members of Christ,
since their teachings are against him.
He makes it appear
that his deeds must be pleasing to God.
However, Christians must resemble palm fronds,
which, when laden, only climb higher.

It is and remains the comfort of Christians,
that God watches over His church.
For even though the storms rage,
yet after the winds of trouble
the sun of joy soon smiled.


Jews seem to be being assimilated to the Antichrist in the extraordinary echo of John's

Quoteanyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God


in the lines

QuoteHe makes it appear
that his deeds must be pleasing to God.


You can imagine how the Jews living in Leipzig at the time must have felt about this.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

Re Luther, there's this anti Jewish passage from the table talk - not something he wrote but notes of conversations,I have no idea whether it is an anomaly, just something he may have said in a moment of bad judgement, or whether it is representative of his thinking at some time in his life

This passage comes from the early 1530s, ten years before he died in his early 60s

QuoteThe Jews impersonating medics deprive of life and property the Christians who take their medication, for they suppose they do God a service if they intensely torment the Christians and secretly kill them

(Martin Luther, Tisch Reden 2308)

Note the echo of the text from John set in Cantata 44, they suppose they do God a service.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

#665
The above posts are just taken from the book Bach and God. As I said, I'm not able to read the book critically. Here's what someone who is, I think, more familiar with Christianity than I am, said to me - just to give you an idea what a minefield this is

QuoteThis is a distorted view of the gospel as it fails to take into account that the writer of John's gospel and Jesus himself were Jews. All of the early Christians were Jews. So to take the view that the Jews as a whole were the 'enemy' is something completely foreign to the gospel. What the gospel points out is those who rejected Jesus and put him to death who were both Jewish leaders (not the common people who gathered to hear Jesus and his message) and the Roman authorities.
Your point about John 3:18 is puzzling as it is a general point about the whole of mankind - it is in the context of 'God so loved the world' - and is not just applicable to Jews. Again John 3:36 is a statement for the whole of mankind and why do you emphasise the negative aspect of the verse without the positive aspect also?.


QuoteIt's interesting this alleged anti-Semitism obviously comes from some utterly regrettable tracks by Martin Luther which were written by the end of his life and are full of his usual explosive invective and which admirers fervently wish had never been written. Sometimes alleged anti-Semitism in John comes from the confusion that John often uses the term 'the Jews' for the Jewish ruling classes ie the priestly factions, with whom Jesus had the discussions and the disagreements, not the general Jewish populous. It was 'the Jews' and not the common people who plotted to put Jesus to death, Something that John makes quite clear. The common people wanted to make him king. The Priestley factions plotted his death.
I found an interesting comment in the New Yorker which is helpful I think to quote:
'Is the Passion's savage depiction of the Jews simply the work of a master storyteller? It is surely that, but not simply that. Bach's own attitude becomes clearer in his music and in the poetry of the choruses and arias with which he surrounds John's narrative.
An early chorale, for example, "Wer hat dich so geschlagen," asks of the wounded Jesus, "Who has struck you so?" The second verse answers, "Ich, ich und meine Sünden": "I" — we all, that is Protestant, Catholic and Jew alike — "I and my sins."
Here, as Mr. Marissen notes in his book "Bach & God" (2016), "Bach moves the focus away from the perfidy of 'the Jews' and onto the sins of Christian believers." And the work as a whole moves in an epic arc from turmoil to profound fellow-feeling and consolation, from inhumanity for the sake of effect, as it were, to a humanity deeply felt and registered.'
This of course fits in well with Christian theology which believes that although it was the Jewish rulers with the agreement of the Roman authorities who put Jesus to death, it was in fact our sins that nailed him to the cross. Early in Johns Gospel the statement "behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world " makes the point. So JSB is just following normal Christian theological tradition. There is no anti-Semitism about it just because JSB sets it in a tremendous drama
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Jo498

#666
John 3:18 is just standard orthodox christology. Religions are usually not tolerant and neither are such supposed sayings of Christ that he is the only way etc.

I am not sure that the persecutors of Christians in the end times (or any other time) are necessarily supposed to be Jews or aligned with them. Of course, there was early persecution of Christians by Jews (such as St. Paul before his conversion who clearly had thought that stoning St. Stephen was "pleasing to God"), so this was not merely anti-Jewish slander at the time of the gospels
And obviously it could never be antisemitic in the modern sense as most important early Christians, apostles and teachers in the first century were all ethnically jewish and "ex-jewish" in their faith (like Paul). Not sure, but for several decades it was not even clear if christianity would be or remain mostly a reformist jewish sect. Even in the apostate Julian's time in the 4th century Christians would still be referred to as "Galileans" (vicisti, Galilee).
If Luke really was a Greek physician one should expect his gospel (addressed to the gentiles) to be the most antijudaist, but it's apparently not so simple. In fact he gospel of Matthew that is supposedly mostly addressed to Jews with plenty of references to Scripture has about as much blaming of the Jews (i.e. the priests and ruling class) for the crucifixion as John.) But at the probable composition of the 4th gospel in the early 2nd century it should have been clear that the Romans were the main persecutors and would be in the future. Obviously nobody could know around 100 AD that Christians would become powerful enough to persecute unbelievers only two to three centuries later.

But in the 18th century with the Jews a small minority and Christianity dominating, it was obviously slander to claim Jews would be trying to kill Christians. Because this seems very unrealistic, I am not at all sure that a 18th century Lutheran would mainly think of Jews as the potential persecutors mentioned in BWV 44. Even for Luther the "antichrist" was most likely the Pope or the Turkish Sultan, not a leader of some secret Jewish cabal. And if a 18th century listener would have thought of such a text not mainly spiritually but socially/politically, I think that he would have rather thought of another christian denomination (such as Catholics or radical protestants like anabaptists) or (maybe more likely) the Turks (who had not entirely ceased to be a threat to Europe in the early 18th century).

Edit: More generally, if one looks at other prophetic passages from the bible, be it Daniel or Revelation, there seem to be references to all kinds of empires/powers that would suppress and persecute the faithful without ever clearly being identifiable as Jewish (obviously such would be nonsensical in old testament prophecies but not per se in the Revelation of John). So while the slanders (like abducting and murdering Christian children) and conspiracy theories certainly were real, they are hardly based on biblical writings or mainstream theology and neither is a Jewish-led persecution of Christians.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

SurprisedByBeauty

It might be pointed out that Luther turned against the Jews late in life; cranky and most likely out of the outraged disappointment that now that he had cleared Christianity of all the legitimate hurdles that might keep one from embracing the true faith, they STILL didn't convert in huge numbers. That doesn't excuse his diatribes and it's a simplified depiction, obviously, but I think it sets the scene to better understand what was going on with him and in his writings.

Karl Henning

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on December 30, 2019, 12:43:52 PM
It might be pointed out that Luther turned against the Jews late in life; cranky and most likely out of the outraged disappointment that now that he had cleared Christianity of all the legitimate hurdles that might keep one from embracing the true faith, they STILL didn't convert in huge numbers. That doesn't excuse his diatribes and it's a simplified depiction, obviously, but I think it sets the scene to better understand what was going on with him and in his writings.

Interesting, thanks.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Jo498

yes, there are earlier writings that are far more open and there were meetings and/or correspondences with prominent Jews that came to nothing. Apparently Luther was deeply disappointed and felt personally injured (and he had been cranky and irascible even before becoming a famous reformer), so he turned strongly against Judaism. In any case, I think that one would have to look carefully into early 18th century German Lutheran theological stances and discussions to see if Judaism was an important topic for them at all or mostly ignored.
And as for the reaction of Jewish people to Bach's texts: Back then faithful Jews would not have attended a protestant service where Bach cantatas were played. So this only becomes an issue in Mendelssohn's time when Bach was "secularized" and played in public concerts.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Chaszz

#670
M

milk

No talk of Bach recently. Without that, my life suddenly has less meaning. Also, I have so much Bach that I don't know what I need to hear right now. Help!

vers la flamme

Quote from: milk on August 12, 2020, 02:54:08 AM
No talk of Bach recently. Without that, my life suddenly has less meaning. Also, I have so much Bach that I don't know what I need to hear right now. Help!

The B minor Mass. Put on your favorite recording. If you don't have one, may I suggest Richter/Munich Bach Choir, or Gardiner on Archiv if you want something faster. Of course, there are a thousand other recordings, but these two are doing it for me right now  ;D

Biffo

As this thread seems a bit open ended I will ask a question (for anybody interested). What is your favourite Bach aria? I realise many people will have dozens but mine is the beautiful recitative  Am Abend da es kühle war followed by the aria Mache dich, mein Herze, rein from the St Matthew Passion. Possibly my favourite version is Cornelius Hauptmann in Gardiner's recording (DG Archiv)

Mahlerian

Quote from: Biffo on August 14, 2020, 04:34:25 AM
As this thread seems a bit open ended I will ask a question (for anybody interested). What is your favourite Bach aria? I realise many people will have dozens but mine is the beautiful recitative  Am Abend da es kühle war followed by the aria Mache dich, mein Herze, rein from the St Matthew Passion. Possibly my favourite version is Cornelius Hauptmann in Gardiner's recording (DG Archiv)

A wonderful choice! I may have to second your selection there.
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

ritter

My favourite Bach aria is this marvel:

https://www.youtube.com/v/4XeuHyWpTLE

"Tief gebückt und voller Reue" from Mein Herze schwimmt im Blut BWV 199. And I haven't chosen Dawn Upshaw' s recording by chance; it is a close to perfect as I can imagine... :)

And in No. 2 position, "Zerfliesse, mein Herze" from the St. John Passion, BWV 245. I'm particularly fond of Evelyn Lear in this (my first exposure to the aria decades ago).

https://www.youtube.com/v/R8bP0bub9IM

amw

Quote from: Biffo on August 14, 2020, 04:34:25 AMWhat is your favourite Bach aria?
Could not pick between Aus Liebe will mein Heiland sterben, Können Tränen meiner Wangen, or Komm, süsses Kreuz. Perhaps slight preference for the latter for the gamba solo. I suppose they all make up one larger "meta-aria", in my defence.

Biffo

Quote from: ritter on August 14, 2020, 06:03:05 AM
My favourite Bach aria is this marvel:

https://www.youtube.com/v/4XeuHyWpTLE

"Tief gebückt und voller Reue" from Mein Herze schwimmt im Blut BWV 199. And I haven't chosen Dawn Upshaw' s recording by chance; it is a close to perfect as I can imagine... :)

And in No. 2 position, "Zerfliesse, mein Herze" from the St. John Passion, BWV 245. I'm particularly fond of Evelyn Lear in this (my first exposure to the aria decades ago).

https://www.youtube.com/v/R8bP0bub9IM

Two fine choices there - I have BWV 199 sung by Lorraine Hunt Lieberson; the disc was highly praised when first issued. I will have to give it a spin again soon.


vers la flamme

I'd like to hear more of Masaaki Suzuki's Bach recordings. I have these:

Johannespassion (first recording)
Inventions & Sinfonias
Magnificat

... & that's about it. What are some highlights of his work? Note that I can scarcely afford to buy more than one or two of them at a time. BIS is damn expensive.