I have a few recordings of it but I want to see if I can do better, any great suggestions for this one? Thanks in advance.
Amazingly I have only one recording of BWV 1079 (Capella Istropolitana/Naxos). :P
I think I could do better easily.
My favorite is the Ensemble Sonnerie on Virgin Classics - wonderful variety of instrumentation.
James, I think it would be helpful (not to me, but to others who may want to suggest recordings) if you could list the recordings you already have in your possession. :)
I have just one (Concentus Musicus Wien - Warner/DAW) and I'm quite happy with it for now. At the same time, I'm curious about Savall's recording and his arrangement of the movements of the work. I have felt that this work as presented by the CMW feels like a few short but brilliant pieces strung together arbitrarily. I think this is the way it is done in most other recordings.
QuoteThe placement of the Canons (as well as Savall's various other tweaks) is explained in the excellent booklet notes. Specifically, Savall opts for an arch structure, with the curve of the piece rising from the Ricercar a 6 for harpsichord heard early on, peaking at the centrally-placed Trio Sonata and then down again to the repeat of the Ricercar a 6 played by the full ensemble. If his intention was to create a more unified, more accessible work, then Savall has succeeded.
- Dan Davis, Classics Today (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=4328)
For a different pov:
Neville Marriner, Academy of St. Martin-In-The-Fields, and Iona Brown
And don't forget:
Harnoncourt, Concentus Musicus
Quote from: Bulldog on September 01, 2009, 08:48:32 AM
My favorite is the Ensemble Sonnerie on Virgin Classics - wonderful variety of instrumentation.
Well, I was asking myself the same question a week or so ago! :) For years, I've owned just one version of the
Musical Offering, the one below (on the left), which was recommended by
Don in the above quote; and I must say that if you want just a single offering ( ;)), then certainly a recommendation.
But, I was perusing the recent issue of
Fanfare and the Ton Koopman release w/ the Amsterdam Baroque Orch on period instruments was highly recommended (Challenger 72309) - so in exploring Amazon, I was more attracted to the CD below (right), i.e. Linden, Hazelzet and Musica Antiqua Köln - great group & inexpensive; now awaiting its arrival.
However, there seem to be plenty of excellent choices for this work - I'm sure Savall (and others) would please me in this performance! :D
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41FDKE34M5L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/418065GCG1L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: Franco on September 01, 2009, 10:28:30 AM
For a different pov:
Neville Marriner, Academy of St. Martin-In-The-Fields, and Iona Brown
It hurts my ears just thinking of Marriner's recording. :D
I just ordered the Savall recording from BRO.
I also have had only one CD of this for years, and not an "up to date" interpretation, either. Milan Munclinger conducting the Ars Rediviva Orchestra on Supraphon. No, not Munchinger, Munclinger. I've alway found this recording very satisfying, but it's 60s Baroque. I also have Kuijken/Leonhardt on a Pro Arte Lp, I'll have to give that one a spin to refresh my memory of it.
My choice: Goebel wit the Musica Antiqua Köln. The Sonata, with Hazelzet, Goebel and Medlam is sublime.
Quote from: Bulldog on September 01, 2009, 07:35:40 PM
It hurts my ears just thinking of Marriner's recording. :D
Me too - except that I find Nicholas Kraemers take of the three-part Ricercare at least acceptable.
Quote from: James on September 01, 2009, 08:39:24 AM
I have a few recordings of it but I want to see if I can do better, any great suggestions for this one? Thanks in advance.
People looking for better recordings of this music are commonplace, I've seen topics like this at every CM forum, all to no avail. I suggest there will never be a real solution because the music itself is rather commonplace, something that people seem reticent to accept.
Quote from: Bulldog on September 01, 2009, 07:35:40 PM
It hurts my ears just thinking of Marriner's recording. :D
Alas, it is the only recording of this work that I have other than non-purist the orchestral one. Maybe I should look out for other recordings as well. Can't say I am happy with the ASMIF version.
Quote from: Rod Corkin on September 02, 2009, 04:39:22 AM
. . . the music itself is rather commonplace, something that people seem reticent to accept.
LOLOLOLOLOLOL
Are you
surprised, Rod? For one thing, unless perhaps you share Mr Newman's incapacity to understand what a
fact is — this eccentric notion that the music of the
BWV 1079 "is rather commonplace" is to be readily filed as an
opinion. Nor any particularly intelligent or
musical opinion.
You know, when I saw that you had posted to this thread, I suspected that you were writing to the effect that
it's too bad that the BWV 1079 isn't half as good as anything Handel wrote. So, yes, I came to read the post ready for a laugh. But I was scarce prepared for
this comedic gem on your part!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 02, 2009, 04:46:00 AM
LOLOLOLOLOLOL
Are you surprised, Rod? For one thing, unless perhaps you share Mr Newman's incapacity to understand what a fact is — this eccentric notion that the music of the BWV 1079 "is rather commonplace" is to be readily filed as an opinion. Nor any particularly intelligent or musical opinion.
I'll never understand GMG's obsession with Newman, but your detrimental mention of is name in this topic was rather foolish, because Newman is the biggest Bach fan going. What does that say about this music? LOLOLOLOLOLOL
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 02, 2009, 04:46:00 AM
You know, when I saw that you had posted to this thread, I suspected that you were writing to the effect that it's too bad that the BWV 1079 isn't half as good as anything Handel wrote. So, yes, I came to read the post ready for a laugh. But I was scarce prepared for this comedic gem on your part!
Who mentioned Handel? It's just bland music in itself. But I was totally serious, even the Bach fans at my site are rather unenthusiastic about this piece. In fact one of the people I was referring to in my previous post was me,
I too created a topic for this music myself, looking for something that will make this music sound good. So far no luck.. ::)
I have Menuhin in this. Because it was cheap and available.
Quote from: MN Dave on September 02, 2009, 05:08:15 AM
I have Menuhin in this. Because it was cheap and available.
Dave - LOL ;D! If cheap is what you want, you might consider that 2nd CD shown in my post above, and endorsed in one of the following posts - :)
Quote from: SonicMan on September 02, 2009, 05:17:32 AM
Dave - LOL ;D! If cheap is what you want, you might consider that 2nd CD shown in my post above, and endorsed in one of the following posts - :)
At first I thought MN Dave's coment about H e nn i ng... ;D
Quote from: Rod Corkin on September 02, 2009, 05:04:29 AM
Who mentioned Handel? It's just bland music in itself. But I was totally serious, even the Bach fans at my site are rather unenthusiastic about this piece. In fact one of the people I was referring to in my previous post was me, I too created a topic for this music myself, looking for something that will make this music sound good. So far no luck.. ::)
On my thread people were jumping up and down to proclaim that A Musical Offering was one of their favorite works, just saying. :)
It's pretty good, but for chamber (>1 instrument and < alot) I strongly prefer the sonatas for violin and harpsichord. :)
There's a more recent version from the Kuijken brothers. It's available as a DVD and the videos can be sampled on YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=OedipusColoneus&view=videos&query=kuijken+musical+offering).
Quote from: Rod Corkin on September 02, 2009, 05:04:29 AM
Who mentioned Handel? It's just bland music in itself. But I was totally serious, even the Bach fans at my site are rather unenthusiastic about this piece.
Not correct. I was at your site and was very enthusiastic about the work. The problem is not that the music is bland or that it's hard to find excellent recordings. The problem is you.
Quote from: opus106 on September 02, 2009, 05:38:41 AM
There's a more recent version from the Kuijken brothers. It's available as a DVD and the videos can be sampled on YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=OedipusColoneus&view=videos&query=kuijken+musical+offering).
I have seen this in a store in Beijing. I will get it tomorrow!
Quote from: springrite on September 02, 2009, 05:49:40 AM
I have seen this in a store in Beijing. I will get it tomorrow!
Good for you!
I thought Rod was the only one in his forum? ???
Quote from: Bulldog on September 02, 2009, 05:44:54 AM
Not correct. I was at your site and was very enthusiastic about the work. The problem is not that the music is bland or that it's hard to find excellent recordings. The problem is you.
And who are you over there may I ask? No 'excellent recordings' have been presented in that topic so far. But clearly you missed out on the back-room discussion in the Officers' Mess prior to the topic's creation. Why do you think it was left to me to create the topic? ::)
Quote from: Rod Corkin on September 02, 2009, 05:04:29 AM
But I was totally serious, even the Bach fans at my site are rather unenthusiastic about this piece.
And I'm totally serious: this says nothing about the
BWV 1079, and everything about the small sampling of the population at your site.
Take
Webern, now. Sure, O Corkster, sure: He must have elected to create a novel orchestration of the
Ricercar a 6, because it was such
commonplace music.
LOLOLOLOLOLOL
Quote from: MN Dave on September 02, 2009, 05:53:51 AM
I thought Rod was the only one in his forum? ???
Busted! ;D
Quote from: MN Dave on September 02, 2009, 05:53:51 AM
I thought Rod was the only one in his forum? ???
Bulldog's post contradicts that notion Dave. You are a member too so that makes three of us!
Quote from: Rod Corkin on September 02, 2009, 05:56:51 AM
Bulldog's post contradicts that notion Dave. You are a member too so that makes three of us!
Lies. I've never signed up there.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 02, 2009, 05:56:14 AM
And I'm totally serious: this says nothing about the BWV 1079, and everything about the small sampling of the population at your site.
Take Webern, now. Sure, O Corkster, sure: He must have elected to create a novel orchestration of the Ricercar a 6, because it was such commonplace music.
LOLOLOLOLOLOL
Who in God's name cares about Webern?? And I don't in any case consider such arrangements. Often Bach fans speak of such things is if they were Bach's own.
Quote from: Rod Corkin on September 02, 2009, 05:54:22 AM
And who are you over there may I ask?
The same person that I am on this site; I take myself wherever I go.
The main point is that you like to make it sound as if hardly anyone likes the Musical Offering, an opinion that is clearly bogus.
Quote from: MN Dave on September 02, 2009, 05:57:21 AM
Lies. I've never signed up there.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Thread duty:Quote from: James on September 01, 2009, 08:39:24 AM
I have a few recordings of it but I want to see if I can do better, any great suggestions for this one? Thanks in advance.
In 1949-50,
Igor Markevich worked up a realization for three orchestral groups & solo quartet; I always enjoy listening to this recording.
— And I realize now, thanks to the Corkster, that
Markevich would have done this for
any commonplace music LOLOLOLOLOLOL
Quote from: Bulldog on September 02, 2009, 06:01:39 AM
The same person that I am on this site; I take myself wherever I go.
The main point is that you like to make it sound as if hardly anyone likes the Musical Offering, an opinion that is clearly bogus.
We have no Bulldog over there, and only members can see the topic. What is your username?
LOL Overload. Please try again later.
Quote from: Rod Corkin on September 02, 2009, 06:06:30 AM
We have no Bulldog over there, and only members can see the topic. What is your username?
Of course there's no Bulldog over there; it's just a screen name I use on this site. I make a few postings on your site under my real name that I can't reveal for national security reasons. ;D
I like the Jordi Savall's recording.
Quote from: Rod Corkin on September 02, 2009, 04:39:22 AM
People looking for better recordings of this music are commonplace, I've seen topics like this at every CM forum, all to no avail. I suggest there will never be a real solution because the music itself is rather commonplace, something that people seem reticent to accept.
(http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/Tarkus/FacePalm.jpg)
The guy's a whack job. What do you want out of him?
Quote from: MN Dave on September 02, 2009, 06:19:26 AM
The guy's a whack job. What do you want out of him?
QFT ;D
Quote from: Bulldog on September 02, 2009, 06:17:17 AM
Of course there's no Bulldog over there; it's just a screen name I use on this site. I make a few postings on your site under my real name that I can't reveal for national security reasons. ;D
I know who you are now. I can understand why you would want to remain anon here so I'll say nothing. ;D
That marvelous Canon perpetuus a 4 — "commonplace"?
Waiter, I'll have one of whatever the Corkster is drinking.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 02, 2009, 06:04:30 AM
Thread duty:
In 1949-50, Igor Markevich worked up a realization for three orchestral groups & solo quartet; I always enjoy listening to this recording.
— And I realize now, thanks to the Corkster, that Markevich would have done this for any commonplace music LOLOLOLOLOLOL
All these D-list composers queuing up to better Bach with his own music. Say's a lot... ::)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 02, 2009, 06:24:49 AM
That marvelous Canon perpetuus a 4 — "commonplace"?
Waiter, I'll have one of whatever the Corkster is drinking.
I read the directions. It says NOT to be taken orally...
Quote from: springrite on September 02, 2009, 06:30:05 AM
I read the directions. It says NOT to be taken orally...
Quote from: The Firesign TheatreRoll up your arm and bend over.
"When the enemy in the field.. has to resort to toilet humor... it is a sure sign... they have lost." W. Churchill, 1945
Quote from: Rod Corkin on September 02, 2009, 05:04:29 AM
Who mentioned Handel? It's just bland music in itself.
::)
G. F. Handel wrote some of the greatest music of all time; but it is really silly to take pot shots at The Musical Offering.
Quote from: Rod Corkin on September 02, 2009, 06:43:25 AM
"When the enemy in the field.. has to resort to toilet humor... it is a sure sign... they have lost." W. Churchill, 1945
Thank you, Rod, for furnishing more of the sort of post which prompted one neighbor to observe that you are (his very word) delusional.
In order:
1. No enemies here. We're all music-lovers, and we're all discussing the music.
2. This isn't a field. Probably, none of us is dialing in from any field.
3. No one here has had to resort to toilet humor.
4. We may choose to, is all.
5. Nothing about this is a "sure sign" of anything.
6. You lost from the outset with your lame "commonplace music" remark.
Quote from: Franco on September 02, 2009, 07:48:56 AM
. . . it is really silly to take pot shots at The Musical Offering.
QFT
7. Churchill was a great man; but your quoting him doesn't make any of his greatness rub off on you.
8. Pity.
The Largo of the Sonata! Magnificent.
Quote from: Rod Corkin on September 02, 2009, 06:24:28 AM
I know who you are now. I can understand why you would want to remain anon here so I'll say nothing. ;D
I have no interest in being known or unknown. However, you want to be identified as a Handel lover who finds Bach ordinary and often boring. Again, as I have often stated, your attempts to lift Handel by dumping on Bach are detrimental to the perception you would like to possess as a classical music enthusiast. Put another way, I find your attitudes perverse.
The attitude is perverse and the musical intelligence is poor.
Quote from: val on September 02, 2009, 12:35:56 AM
My choice: Goebel wit the Musica Antiqua Köln. The Sonata, with Hazelzet, Goebel and Medlam is sublime.
I'll second that. The Goebel/Musica Antiqua Köln on DG eloquence recording is not realistic, rather close miked, and the perspective is not realistic, and not much dynamic contrast. However, it is thoughtfully done and quite beatiful. The recording shows up the musical structures, and I think that's what this piece is about. I really like it, though the Penguin Guide doesn't think it's that special .
Benda on Naxos is more realistically recorded. It's OK but I don't like it nearly as well.
I have the old Muenchinger/Stuttgart CO on a London STS LP. It's also pretty good, but I like the Goebel recording much better.
Quote from: Xenophanes on September 02, 2009, 10:10:38 AM
I'll second that. The Goebel/Musica Antiqua Köln on DG eloquence recording is not realistic, rather close miked, and the perspective is not realistic, and not much dynamic contrast. However, it is thoughtfully done and quite beatiful. The recording shows up the musical structures, and I think that's what this piece is about. I really like it, though the Penguin Guide doesn't think it's that special .
/quote]
I consider the Penguin Guide a waste of time.
Quote from: James on September 02, 2009, 09:46:26 AM
I enjoy your attempts at comedy Rod, always riles up the people it seems - your Cage-inspired piece was a hoot.
The
right people James (who is another member by the way chaps). I exposed Cage as the dabbler that he was and produced a genuine masterpiece at the same time. But back on topic, the real issue with this music, which I identified 'elsewhere', is not really Bach, it is King Fred's theme. It is so bland I don't think anyone could make it interesting, certainly Bach could not.
Quote from: Rod Corkin on September 02, 2009, 01:27:58 PM
The right people James (who is another member by the way chaps). I exposed Cage as the dabbler that he was and produced a genuine masterpiece at the same time. But back on topic, the real issue with this music, which I identified 'elsewhere', is not really Bach, it is King Fred's theme. It is so bland I don't think anyone could make it interesting, certainly Bach could not.
Just as Beethoven took Diabelli's nothing theme and made a masterpiece, Bach did the same. It's a shame that you don't seem able to enjoy both Handel and Bach, for both of them are fantastic composers.
According to wikipedia "Apart from the trio sonata, which is written for flute, violin and basso continuo, the pieces [in MO] have few indications of which instruments are meant to play them, although there is now significant support for the idea that they are for solo keyboard . . . ."
Are there any good keyboard recordings? I've never heard it played like that.
By the way, Marc Andre Hamelin has started to play a Busoni transcription for piano. I would quite like to hear that. I've never heard anyone play the Bach/Busoni.
This seems to me lovely music with some stunningly interesting performances on record. I'm amazed at some of the ideas about it expressed earlier in this thread.
Quote from: Mandryka on August 20, 2011, 09:29:51 AM
Are there any good keyboard recordings? I've never heard it played like that.
Oh yes. Tatiana Nikolayeva on HYPERION. I have it and like it very much.
Quote from: springrite on August 20, 2011, 09:38:46 AM
Oh yes. Tatiana Nikolayeva on HYPERION. I have it and like it very much.
The Ricercar for three and six voices are almost always played on a harpsichord (by that I mean on a keyboard). What that Wikipedia article states, without any source, is that the other canons in the work apart from the trio sonata, e.g. the canon for two violins, were also written for the keyboard. I had a look at Hyperion's website and Nikolayeva's AotF recording has only the ricercars and not the other parts.
Quote from: Opus106 on August 20, 2011, 10:25:16 AM
The Ricercar for three and six voices are almost always played on a harpsichord (by that I mean on a keyboard). What that Wikipedia article states, without any source, is that the other canons in the work apart from the trio sonata, e.g. the canon for two violins, were also written for the keyboard. I had a look at Hyperion's website and Nikolayeva's AotF recording has only the ricercars and not the other parts.
Si. You are correct.
Humm.. that would be interesting. I'd be interested to hear it if so!
Here's one: Konstantin Lifshitz on the piano (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Konstantin-Lifschitz-Klavier/hnum/1621156).
Quote from: Opus106 on August 20, 2011, 10:32:46 AM
Here's one: Konstantin Lifshitz on the piano (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Konstantin-Lifschitz-Klavier/hnum/1621156).
I've got that, and I like it very much. It comes coupled with some other goodies, incl. some Frescobaldi toccatas (on piano!).
Quote from: Bulldog on September 01, 2009, 08:48:32 AM
My favorite is the Ensemble Sonnerie on Virgin Classics - wonderful variety of instrumentation.
Yup! I'm no doubt that it was a good recording ... but don't forget Jordi Savall
It offers you a different experience ...
(http://www.sa-cd.net/covers/6244rev1.jpg)
A particularly beautiful realisation by Gert Zacher of a score which is problematic to say the least. Very imaginative tempos and rubato, IMO natural and convincing; endings of canons are sometimes left "in the air", which is food for thought, but why not? Superb and clear live recording in the church or Niederehe in Eifel, the musicians are playing responsively. This is one of those recordings which give you a hint of what it was like to be at a pretty special concert.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/uFCievliuME/sddefault.jpg)
An organ transcription of the whole thing played at St Climints in Prague by Josef Popelka, the organ sounds nice, maybe anachronistic but not offensive, and it doesn't sound equally tuned. I can't find any details about it on the web. The performance is attractive IMO, the organ tuning makes the harmonies sound fresh, it's certainly not too heavy, good sense of pace. The trio sonata takes on a grandeur which I for one found revealing.
What's particularly nice is to have a performance which is not like music for a king's drawing room. Just moving it to organ seems to give it gravitas and an abstract quality. Of course there are more authentic performance which don't treat opfer as a galant royal entertainment, but this one does it in a rather original way.
Quote from: Mandryka on September 15, 2016, 12:41:39 PM
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/uFCievliuME/sddefault.jpg)
An organ transcription of the whole thing played at St Climints in Prague by Josef Popelka, the organ sounds nice, maybe anachronistic but not offensive, and it doesn't sound equally tuned. I can't find any details about it on the web. The performance is attractive IMO, the organ tuning makes the harmonies sound fresh, it's certainly not too heavy, good sense of pace. The trio sonata takes on a grandeur which I for one found revealing.
I know Popelka's AoF, which I incidentally listened to the day before yesterday. But wasn't aware of the Opfer, so ordered immediately.
(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Messori-M-A01a%5BBrilliant-3CD%5D.jpg)
This is one of my favourite Opfers. I like it so much mainly because of its emotional content. The performance starts off with a series of canons, played by Messori, which seem as tinged with golden nostalgia as much as any late piano music by Brahms. In the middle is the sonata, with its yearning violin. And then it ends with some contrapuntal music, which now seems much more abstract, more at peace. The CD ends with the unfinished fugue from AoF: not a bad place to put it maybe. It's like a pilgrim's progress, an epic.
What is Opfer? A spiritual testament from a thoughtful musician at the end of his career and in fact at the end of his life? A flamboyant job application designed to show of Bach's skills for the court? A galant royal diversion? I think Messori is plumping for the first answer.
Quote from: Mandryka on September 16, 2016, 01:56:30 AM
(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Messori-M-A01a%5BBrilliant-3CD%5D.jpg)
This is one of my favourite Opfers. I like it so much mainly because of its emotional content. The performance starts off with a series of canons, played by Messori, which seem as tinged with golden nostalgia as much as any late piano music by Brahms. In the middle is the sonata, with its yearning violin. And then it ends with some contrapuntal music, which now seems much more abstract, more at peace. The CD ends with the unfinished fugue from AoF: not a bad place to put it maybe. It's like a pilgrim's progress, an epic.
What is Opfer? A spiritual testament from a thoughtful musician at the end of his career and in fact at the end of his life? A flamboyant job application designed to show of Bach's skills for the court? A galant royal diversion? I think Messori is plumping for the first answer.
I remember having read someone (probably line notes to a CD) who proposed that Bach's use of the word Opfer carries a double meaning, the other meaning being victim, victim to king Frederick's capriciousness.
BTW this is also one of my favorite Opfers, and the AoF one of my favorite AOF's on harpsichord.
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 16, 2016, 09:50:22 AM
carries a double meaning, the other meaning being victim, victim to king Frederick's capriciousness.
While victim or sacrifice are today actually more common meanings of Opfer (I was rather puzzled about the title when I first read about it as a teenager) this idea does not sound plausible to me. In what way did Bach suffer? It sounds far too strong language to me and I do not think that such a double meaning would have gone well with the king (something Bach would not risk because of his sons position). And how could Bach mean himself in the title of the work?
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/190/MI0001190923.jpg)
The contribution of the strings in this Opfer by Koopman is exceptional for the sense of musicians listening and responding to each other, as well as for the expressiveness of their music making - rather melancholy. That makes for some glorious canons. A major achievement IMO.
The sonata seems classical in conception, elegant, refined, not particularly expressive but by no means cold, and with a satisfying feeling of the musicians all enjoying the process.
The flautist seems full of life's joys, and he sounds beautiful.
There are two versions of the ricercar à 6 - one for strings and flute, and one for two harpsichords (I think.) The orchestrated version is lyrical and rather peaceful. The keyboard version is articulated and flamboyant, turbulent in fact. It is interesting, and along with the canons for duos of string players, a reason for hearing the Cd.
Good sound.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51P2OO0Ub9L.jpg)
Marie Claire Alain recorded the ricercar à 6 in this her final Bach cycle. The performance a sort of still calm nobility which reminds me very much of Walcha's style in his stereo recording.
Mandryka, have you ever heard this one?
I'd be interested in your opinion of it if you have.
I'm a bit prejudiced in its favor because it's the one by which I "learned" this work.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71DYOeXuHhL.jpg)
I'm posting the back cover because the front cover is a bit boring: that painting of Friedrich tootling his flute which seems to be the near universal fallback for any recording associated with his court.
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/190/MI0001190923.jpg)
Returning to this, the orchestrated ricercar à 6 now seems to me to be dominated by the flute, like a little flute concerto. The effect is entirely predictable and hence must be what they were intending, but it does seem strange and it would have been good if they had made a comment about what led them to this instrumentation.
The keyboard ricercar à 6 is indeed with Koopman and Mathot. I suppose having a second player freed them up to ornament the music more richly. It's very Koopmam, about as (un)enjoyable as his art of fugue: brash and stiff and emotionally shallow. It's as if they wanted to provide a cheerful way to end the Opfer. Everything seems so enigmatic with Musical Offering that I'm reluctant to criticise that conception.
Quote from: Ottavio DantoneJ.S. BACH: "The musical offering"
No musician except Bach has ever approached so closely, or in such a profound way, the boundary that separates art from science, and Bach succeeded in knocking down this very barrier without sacrificing either mathematical reason or purely musical expressiveness.
The Musical Offering was conceived among Bach's final explorations of esoteric musical issues. The work is rich with multiple meanings: from the simple homage paid to an enlightened monarch, to pure spiritual sacrifice; from a scientific and philosophical dissertation, to the search for mysterious, symbolic significance.
History has given us ample evidence to retrace with ease the birth and completion of this unparalleled work. Bach's visit in May, 1747 to King Frederick II in Potsdam prompted the Sovereign to propose a musical theme that the composer was then to develop extemporaneously. (Frederick II, himself an excellent musician and flautist, was well acquainted with Bach's improvisatory talents.) As the periodicals of the time recorded, Bach proceeded to astound the king and everyone else present by playing on the keyboard a three-part fugue, in a most outstanding manner, followed by a fugue for six parts. Even more importantly, Bach went well beyond the royal commission: he deemed the proposed theme to be worthy of especial study and attention, worthy indeed of further and more complete elaboration.
And so in September of the same year the first edition of The Musical Offering was published. One hundred copies were printed; each consisting of five smaller sheaves or booklets, each of which contained its own numbered pages. In the first such booklet we find the frontispiece with its dedication to Frederick 11 of Prussia, and it is here that the work is presented as an offering to the Sovereign. The second booklet contains the Ricercara 3 and the Canon Perpetuus Super Thema Regium. The third contains diverse Canons; the fourth the Ricercara 6 as well as the Canons for 2 and for 4 voices. Lastly the fifth book contains the Sonata Sopr'il Soggetto Reale and a final Canon perpetuus.
Conflicting theories have been put forward by various scholars as to why the first edition was thus printed in individual sections. Further questions abound concerning the exact order of the passages. Concerning this latter issue, the most convincing theory is that of Ursula Kirkendale, argued also by A. Basso in Frau Musika. According to the scholar, a connection can he drawn between the structure of The Musical Offering and the outline of an oration as set down by Quintiliano in his Institutio Oratorio. Following this outline, each part of The Musical Offering corresponds to a rule of rhetoric, that is, to the different functions of an address or narrative. Thus the work would be divided in two parts. The introduction (exordium) would include respectively the Ricercari in 3 and 6 voices, leaving the tasks of narration and argumentation to the several Canons. The conclusion then of Bach's discourse would he the Sonata and the Canon perpemus — the first of these, freed from strict contrapuntal formality, is suited to move the emotions and sentiments; the second piece stands as the definitive, irrefutable demonstration of reason and of intellectual rigour.
The enigmatic character of The Musical Offering is evident even in the heading that opens the second booklet, just before the beginning of the first piece. The phrase Regis lussu Cantio Et Reliquia Canonica Arm Resoluta, explaining the origins and content of the work, is an acrostic, the initial letters of which spell the word RICERCAR. Moreover in the original printed edition the Canons are not written out in the complete and extensive form heard by the listener but in the form of a puzzle that the performer first must solve, taking into account the given keys and reference points. What's more, the canons are infinite, in that they have no set ending. Instead they repeat themselves indefinitely, always starting again from the beginning, with no solution provided to escape this unending continuity. The performer is left to decide everything, be it the number of repetitions or the moment and manner in which to bring the canons to an appropriate close.
If we probe the rhetorical/musical aspects of the Thema Regium, we notice, after the initial harmonic ascent through the three steps of the C minor triad, the first rhetorical figure including the vertical interval of a minor seventh — A flat to B (Saltus duriusculus) — followed by a second figure that descends chromatically, touching upon every semitone between G and C (Posits duriusculus). According to the theory of the sentiments, these two rhetorical/musical figures serve to express languid emotions and sighs, pain and ultimately extreme pathos. In effect The Musical Offering is permeated by a mood of suffering, of lamentation and of tension, broken only now and again by moments of hope and rebellion.
The opening passage, the Ricercara 3, plays the role of stating the theme and of developing it in the manner considered by the ancients as the most noble and the most suited for interweaving the strands of an argument: the ricercare, the search. The Ricercar a 6, apparently less rigid in structure, has a countersubject with a hinting character, comprised of staccato notes and leaps. It shows a sense of amusement, with its figurations in triplets and its wide breadth. In the central part of the piece the contrapuntal discourse becomes ever more complex, with a series of stretti involving hold chromatic figures.
The Canon perpetuus that follows opens the first set of canons within the framework of the actual narration. The Thema Regium is here enunciated in the central voice while the upper and lower parts are in canon, at the height of a double octave. In the ingeniously constructed Canon a 2 "Cancrizans" (crabs) the second (following) voice begins on the last note of the first (leading) voice and proceeds backwards until it reaches again the first note, in imitation of the movement of crabs. Literature offers something similar in the palindrome, perhaps the most famous example of which appears in Virgil's hexameter "In girum imus nocte et consumimur igni."
The Canone a 2 violini in unison comes next, one of the few pieces of the work in which Bach specifies the intended instruments and in which the theme is found in the bass. Afterwards comes the Canone a 2 Per Molum contrarium in which the theme passes to the upper voice, and the two lower voices pursue each other in contrary motion. In the Canon a 2 per Augmentationem contrario Motu we find for the first time a variation of the theme in the middle voice, while the other two parts, in canon, move in contrary motion but with redoubled values, the one with respect to the other.
In the subsequent Canone per Tonos, the Thema Regium undergoes variation in a manner that renders it chromatic from the start, whereas the other two voices play a canon set apart by a fifth. The modulation that occurs during the enunciation is altogether congenial. The theme is put forward and taken up again one tone higher without causing any perceptible harmonic trauma, and so on throughout. This process is itself a rhetorical/musical device, called Auxesis or Climax until the 17th century and Gradatio in the period that followed. The effect produced upon the listener's ear is one of gradual crescendo, like an ever more insistent question, until a climax of emotional tension is achieved.
The piece that concludes the first part of the discussion (Egressus) and comes before the second Exordium is the Fuga Canonica in Epidiapente, a three-part fugue built upon a canon between the two upper parts in fifths. As to the origins of the term "Epidiapente", it was common practice in previous times to express such intervals as unison, a fourth, a fifth, an octave, and so forth, with the Greek terminology Diatessaron, Diapente, Diapason, etc. Thus Bach uses the expression "Epidiapente" to indicate that the following part would sing a fifth above, much as he would have used the term "Subdiapente" had the same part answered a fifth below instead.
The Ricercar a 6 is one of the most imposing contrapuntal creations that Bach ever conceived. The number of the voices, the incredible complicated interplay of the parts, even the piece's remarkable dimensions, comes together in a work that is surely unique within its genre. Its structure recalls the Ricercare in its most ancient form: after the grand initial exposition of the theme, diverse new thematic ideas are stated to be then developed in a fugue; yet within each of these ideas the principle subject appears inserted — an extraordinary interweaving, ruled over by one, great, single thought.
The second set of canons includes two brief canons for two voices in contrary motion, retto and inverso, (Canon a 2 Quaerendo invenietis) and the more extensive canon for four voices (Canon a 4). In the latter the theme is enriched in its variation by passing notes that give it a character both expressive and dramatic.
The moment of greatest intensity within the whole work, the Sonata sopr'il Soggetto Reale, foresees a very precise ensemble, with the flute rising to the role of protagonist, in homage no doubt to the great talents as soloist of Frederick II. In the course of the four movements, the Thema Regium appears in its original form only in the opening Allegro, letting its presence be felt afterward every now and then as a solemn quotation in the lovely context of flowing discourse and formal perfection. In the two slow movements Bach gives an essay of pure musical eloquence and of extraordinary expressive sensitivity with a splendid "affettuoso" style. The Sonata ends with an Allegro in 6/8 time based upon the royal theme, superbly varied with pauses, appoggiature, and chromatic progressions that produce veritable sighs, creating contrast with the subsequent passages in semichromes, bringing the piece to its conclusion in a crescendo of rhythm and dynamics.
After the emotional climax of the Sonata in which the sentiments have been given free rein, the final Canon Perpetuus calls everything back to order by means of its great introspectiveness and its far more rigid and rational control. We find again here the forma mentis characteristic of Bach — a mind-set which, placing spirit above matter, holds within itself impenetrable designs, so loaded with secret symbolism, that posterity is left an inheritance such as might never be comprehended in its fullness.
Ottavio Dantone Translation: AD ITALIA
Quote from: Mandryka on September 15, 2016, 12:41:39 PM
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/uFCievliuME/sddefault.jpg)
An organ transcription of the whole thing played at St Climints in Prague by Josef Popelka, the organ sounds nice, maybe anachronistic but not offensive, and it doesn't sound equally tuned. I can't find any details about it on the web. The performance is attractive IMO, the organ tuning makes the harmonies sound fresh, it's certainly not too heavy, good sense of pace. The trio sonata takes on a grandeur which I for one found revealing.
What's particularly nice is to have a performance which is not like music for a king's drawing room. Just moving it to organ seems to give it gravitas and an abstract quality. Of course there are more authentic performance which don't treat opfer as a galant royal entertainment, but this one does it in a rather original way.
Having acquired this and having listened to it I realised, that I knew the recording already. It was pirated by the Baroque Music Club and released on CD under the faked name of Heinrich KLEMM playing the Sauer Organ, Konzerthalle Ulrichskirche, Halle (Germany). But the real player is Josef Popelka and the organ the Rieger organ, St. Clements church, Prague. Presently it can be downloaded in good mp3 quality for free here:
http://www.baroquemusic.org/76364Web.html
I agree, that the performance is a bit oldfashioned (it was made 1987), but it is also well paced, balanced and very brilliant - particularly as to the difficult pedal playing in the trio sonata. Indeed very enjoyable.
The organ was designed by Jiri Reinberger and built by Rieger organ builders in 1980. It is built in baroque style, but still the sound of the stops is very modern. It is without doubt equally tuned.
Josef Popelka (born 1954) is a pupil of Jiri Reinberger and Milan Slechta and studied also with Flor Peters and Johannes Ernst Köhler. Popelka also made an equally interesting recording of Art of Fugue.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 18, 2016, 05:35:17 PM
Mandryka, have you ever heard this one?
I'd be interested in your opinion of it if you have.
I'm a bit prejudiced in its favor because it's the one by which I "learned" this work.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71DYOeXuHhL.jpg)
I am not Mandryka, but I know the recording, which I find conventional and earthbound. It hasn´t got much to offer, and the competition is really too strong.
(https://images-eu.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/212ggNQpIGL._AC_US160_.jpg)
Does anyone know who's playing the harpsichord on this (very excellent) recording? I'm assuming that it's Masahiro Arita, but I'm not sure whether or not he's a flautist. Whoever it is, I'd like to hear more music from him.
Quote from: Mandryka on December 07, 2016, 06:39:11 AM
(https://images-eu.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/212ggNQpIGL._AC_US160_.jpg)
Does anyone know who's playing the harpsichord on this (very excellent) recording? I'm assuming that it's Masahiro Arita, but I'm not sure whether or not he's a flautist. Whoever it is, I'd like to hear more music from him.
The harpsichordist is Chiyoko Arita, Masahiro's wife.
Excellent recording, top-3 in my book, indeed.
BTW, Masahiro Arita recorded an excellent 2-CD set with the flute sonatas, also a top recording.
Quote from: Gordo on December 07, 2016, 06:52:13 AM
The harpsichordist is Chiyoko Arita, Masahiro's wife.
Excellent recording, top-3 in my book, indeed.
BTW, Masahiro Arita recorded an excellent 2-CD set with the flute sonatas, also a top recording.
Thanks, I wasn't certain which Arita was the flautist and which was the harpsichordist. I shall check out the flute sonatas, and I also noticed the same ensemble has recorded some Rameau chamber music, which I'm also quite keen to hear.
I have one real problem with the Opfer recording, the pauses between tracks seem too long.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 18, 2016, 05:35:17 PM
I'm a bit prejudiced in its favor because it's the one by which I "learned" this work.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71DYOeXuHhL.jpg)
I'm posting the back cover because the front cover is a bit boring: that painting of Friedrich tootling his flute which seems to be the near universal fallback for any recording associated with his court.
This is what I have and surprisingly my only BWV 1079! ??? At least I like it a lot.
Quote from: 71 dB on December 07, 2016, 08:42:35 AM
This is what I have and surprisingly my only BWV 1079! ??? At least I like it a lot.
The sound and mood of a more authentic performance is so different - like the one with Arita and Terakado or the one with Mateo Messori - that it may well be worth your while checking one of them out just to see whether you prefer it. I know I do, and for some reason which is more a comment on me than them I suppose, I can't really listen with any pleasure to Capella Istropolitana, even though I can see that it's a polished and professional performance which is nicely recorded and not at all offensive.
Hi,
For many years, this
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51BkWMHr9EL.jpg)
has been a desert island disc for me, among my favorite classical recordings by anyone.
I own two other recordings of BWV 1079:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71653ChE74L._SX522_.jpg)
and
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/712kGfv82hL._SX466_.jpg)
however, despite repeated listening, I've never been able to embrace either. I don't dislike them, they just don't speak to me the way the Ensemble Sonnerie recording does and I listen to them less frequently.
Any thoughts on these two?
I previewed the Messori on iTunes and like it. Thanks for posting it Mandryka.
I'm listening to this on Spotify and it sounds very very good! 0:)
[asin]B00Q3FVVM2[/asin]
Quote from: 71 dB on December 08, 2016, 12:41:53 PM
I'm listening to this on Spotify and it sounds very very good! 0:)
[asin]B00Q3FVVM2[/asin]
The duos are very nice with Pierlot and Gratton, and the sonata's largo is unbelievably luxurious and voluptuous. Very French.
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on December 08, 2016, 09:04:46 PM
What is the best set to pick up that has A Musical Offering AND The organ version of Art Of fugue? (my favorite)
Thanks :)
I don't think there is one.
Quote from: Gordo on December 07, 2016, 06:52:13 AM
The harpsichordist is Chiyoko Arita, Masahiro's wife.
Excellent recording, top-3 in my book, indeed.
BTW, Masahiro Arita recorded an excellent 2-CD set with the flute sonatas, also a top recording.
Which are the other two? :)
I'm still stuck in the past with Harnoncourt et al, Linde-Consort....
Q
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on December 08, 2016, 09:04:46 PM
What is the best set to pick up that has A Musical Offering AND The organ version of Art Of fugue? (my favorite)
Thanks :)
The Teldec Bach 2000 Chamber music box contains Tachezi's Art of Fugue and Harnoncourt's Opfer. And some other things (violin/harpsichord sonatas et.c.).
https://www.amazon.de/Bach-2000-Vol-11-Kammermusik/dp/B00002DF3H/ref=sr_1_5?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1481280928&sr=1-5&keywords=bach+tachezi
There are two sets containing AoF on keyboard and the Opfer, but in these the AoF is played on harpsichord:
1) Messori on Brilliant and 2)Becker-Foss/Wurm on a private edition. Messori is excellent, but
I can not recommend Becker-Foss/Wurm). And if you prefer Aof on organ... , but the harpsichord version is at least equally valid.
https://www.amazon.de/J-S-Bach-Kunst-Fuge-Matteo-Messori/dp/B004W5MNAO/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1481281097&sr=1-3&keywords=bach+messori
https://www.amazon.de/Zahlen-Duderstadts-Sparkassen-Sp%C3%A4twerk-Musikalisches/dp/B004XTR62Y/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1481280975&sr=1-2&keywords=bach+wurm
Quote from: Que on December 08, 2016, 11:38:32 PM
Which are the other two? :)
I'm still stuck in the past with Harnoncourt et al, Linde-Consort....
Q
Kuijken bros. (& R. Kohnen) on DHM, and the very recent recording by the
Ricercar Consort.
I recognize a soft point on
il Gardelino, too. Listening the ricercar a 3 on fortepiano, immediately after the king's theme, has a strong impact on me. :)
Quote from: Gordo on December 09, 2016, 03:59:05 AM
Kuijken bros. (& R. Kohnen) on DHM,
I agree this is good, but I'm curious about why you've singled that one out rather than the one with GL. Maybe I would prefer it too, I'm not sure.
Quote from: Mandryka on December 09, 2016, 06:55:06 AM
I agree this is good, but I'm curious about why you've singled that one out rather than the one with GL. Maybe I would prefer it too, I'm not sure.
I prefer the one with Leonhardt. A crucial point is the ricercare a 6, which seems to be a keyboard piece.
Quote from: Mandryka on December 09, 2016, 06:55:06 AM
I agree this is good, but I'm curious about why you've singled that one out rather than the one with GL. Maybe I would prefer it too, I'm not sure.
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 09, 2016, 07:13:54 AM
I prefer the one with Leonhardt. A crucial point is the ricercare a 6, which seems to be a keyboard piece.
No doubt, it's hard to choose between those two versions; but, I think, exclusively because of Leonhardt.
Nobody has played better than him the keyboard part of the
Musical Offering. There he even allowed himself to be a bit "disheveled" and virtuoso, and the ricercar a 6 mentioned by Premont is a superb example.
But I prefer all the other elements of the version recorded on DHM: the recorded sound, specially the harpsichord; some interpretations (Barthold, for instance, is quite more inspired) and the interplay among the soloists, and flexibility of the interpretation. I even greatly enjoy a sort of "pedagogical" feature in Kohnen's interpretation. For instance, when the ricercar a 3 starts, his playing says something like: "Is Your Majesty talking about THIS?
Quote from: Gordo on December 09, 2016, 03:59:05 AM
Kuijken bros. (& R. Kohnen) on DHM, and the very recent recording by the Ricercar Consort.
I recognize a soft point on il Gardelino, too. Listening the ricercar a 3 on fortepiano, immediately after the king's theme, has a strong impact on me. :)
Much obliged, my friend! :)
Q
Quote from: Gordo on December 09, 2016, 12:20:45 PM
Nobody has played better than him [GL] the keyboard part of the Musical Offering.
Are you forgetting Pierre Hantaï?
Quote from: Que on December 10, 2016, 04:18:51 AM
Much obliged, my friend! :)
Q
That version by the Ricercar Consort has your name on it, I think... It's voluptuously serious. :)
Quote from: Mandryka on December 10, 2016, 06:59:45 AM
Are you forgetting Pierre Hantaï?
He did a vey good job with Savall, but I prefer Leonhardt.
BTW, his brother Marc does a splendid job with the Ricercar, IMO better than with Savall.
I like this for a modern instrument version:
(https://d3rt1990lpmkn.cloudfront.net/640/26bf6844c42268bfb719f99a10a796526954a822)
and this for period instruments:
(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Savall-J-A02-1a%5BAlia-Vox-CD%5D.jpg)
^^^Excellent, thanks for posting.^^^
(http://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/87/72/3614599257287_600.jpg)
This is Harnoncourt's first recording of Opfer, given a new lease of life by Bibliothèque Nationale de France. It is occasionally "deeply felt", intense, and touchingly valedictory in feeling. Isolde Ahlgrimm on some sort of revival instrument I think, the harpsichord's just listenable, and really she's not bad in the ricercar à 3. The ricercar à 6 is another story, I thought it was torture. It's in the grand manner, which made me think of Schweitzer's organ recordings! I like the cello - I guess that's N. Harnoncourt. Where the metronomic style is for me most unbearable is in the trio sonata, which is I think grim, lifeless and charmless. The whole thing gets across very well the feeling of a small group of musicians collaborating.
A comprehensive discography of the work:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NVD/BWV1079-Rec1.htm
Among those I´ve got (Scherchen 1950, Münchinger/Supraphon, Münchinger/Decca), I´d normally reach out for the last one mentioned, but it´s been a while since I heard the piece. However there is no doubt room for improvement, in the way of more tense and/or very different ones, out there.
(http://direct.rhapsody.com/imageserver/images/Alb.124565088/500x500.jpg)
This recording seems to have been completely ignored by the online musical review world, but I think it's not completely without interest.
Wikipedia lists the performers as follows
Lena Weman, Flute and Viola da Gamba (I suspect just flute!)
Anna Lindal, Violin
Mikko Perkola, Viola da Gamba
Hans-Ola Ericsson, Harpsichord and Organ
But that can't be the whole story because sometimes we hear organ and harpsichord together, and sometimes a piano gets in on the act. Maybe he's playing some sort of electronic keyboard. Whatever it is it sounds rather good and is I think not tuned equally.
He doesn't shrink from using anachronistic registers, the results in combination with violin and gamba are beautiful. The recording is unusual, sometimes you feel as though you've got your ear right next to the violin, the timbres are really memorable, the sort of thing I expect to hear in contemporary music. Ericsson is a serious composer and it shows. The general feel is introspective, lyrical, poetic and noble apart from the sonata which comes off as rather racy and jaunty.
The 6 part ricercar is given the ensemble treatment, I don't like it much, but the 3 part ricercar is taken on organ very nicely. This and a 10 minute long sequence of canons was the high point for me.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/719BdE7U3YL._SX522_.jpg)
Suzuki's Opfer came out in December last year
They have thought about the order
QuoteIt is impossible to establish with certainty which order Bach intended for the various pieces in the Musical Offering – the first printed versions contradict each other, and the unusual combination of genres leaves little guidance for the performers.
The order adopted on the present disc is largely inspired by the way the pieces appear in the original print. In 1747, when Bach presented Frederick the Great with his elaborations on the monarch's theme, the pieces were distributed over four different sections containing:
a) Ricercar a 3 and Canon perpetuus super Thema Regium [tracks 7–8 on the present disc]
b) The six numbered canons [tracks 1–6]
c) Sonata sopr' il soggetto Reale and Canon perpetuus [tracks 12–16]
d) Ricercar a 6 and the two canons 'Quaerendo invenietis' [tracks 9–11]
Masaaki Suzuki and his colleagues have chosen to combine these sections in a new way, while maintaining the order of the pieces within them. The result is a varied sequence which emphasizes the importance of the canons by placing them at the beginning, and closing the work with the Canon perpetuus as an epilogue after the excitement of the trio sonata.
There is an interesting essay on the meaning of the music in the booklet by Michael Marissen
QuoteThe collection may even have offended the king, since he must have noticed how the Musical Offering 'baroques' salient features of the galant style. Consider the bizarre and unsettling way that the appoggiatura, a sighing gesture, is lifted from its galant context of marking short phrase endings and is presented in the third movement of the trio sonata in isolation and then repeated extensively, even ob- sessively, at different pitch levels. A similar breaking-down of galant mannerisms can be found in the Three-Part Ricercar.
But Frederick would have understood Bach's publication as more than an affront to his musical taste. With its archaic modes of expression and its religious sym- bolism, the Musical Offering embodies a theological world view wholly at odds with Frederick's enlightened modernity.
The canons more than anything else in the Musical Offering bespeak Bach's theologically conservative world view. By the 1740s, music in canon was even more strongly criticized than fugue, because it countered the rallying call of the Enlightenment for freedom of natural expression in art. In canons the various voices are not merely more or less equal in importance, they are equivalent: in the simplest form of canon, subsequent voices imitate the first voice note-for-note, as in a round. Throughout his career, Bach employed canons to allegorize law in the theological sense ('law' is, in fact, one of the original meanings of the word 'canon'). This form is well-suited for such a purpose, as the freedom of the subsequent voices in a canon is restricted by their having, as it were, to follow the commandment of the initial voice. Not surprisingly, the use of canon in Bach is often tied up with the number ten (in reference to the biblical 'Ten Commandments'). There are ten canons in the Musical Offering, and several bear biblical inscriptions pointing to what Luther called 'the spiritual function of the law': to become aware of sinful- ness, and, in repentance, to seek God's mercy and grace.
Musically, Kiyomi Suga's flute is drop dead gorgeous, Suzuki is tough . . .
Quote from: Mandryka on February 28, 2018, 08:57:57 PM
Suzuki's Opfer came out in December last year
They have thought about the order
The idea of performing the work in one sequence would probably have been alien to Bach, so the question of the sequence of the pieces is purely academic.
Quote from: Mandryka
There is an interesting essay on the meaning of the music in the booklet by Michael Marrisen
Yes, some new thoughts.
Quote from: Mandryka
Musically, Kiyomi Suga's flute is drop dead gorgeous, Suzuki is tough . . .
Certainly.
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 28, 2018, 10:35:21 PM
The idea of performing the work in one sequence would probably have been alien to Bach,
Possibly, although I note that in Dantone's essay which I posted in #73 of this thread we read
QuoteConflicting theories have been put forward by various scholars as to why the first edition was thus printed in individual sections. Further questions abound concerning the exact order of the passages. Concerning this latter issue, the most convincing theory is that of Ursula Kirkendale, argued also by A. Basso in Frau Musika. According to the scholar, a connection can he drawn between the structure of The Musical Offering and the outline of an oration as set down by Quintiliano in his Institutio Oratorio. Following this outline, each part of The Musical Offering corresponds to a rule of rhetoric, that is, to the different functions of an address or narrative. Thus the work would be divided in two parts. The introduction (exordium) would include respectively the Ricercari in 3 and 6 voices, leaving the tasks of narration and argumentation to the several Canons. The conclusion then of Bach's discourse would he the Sonata and the Canon perpemus — the first of these, freed from strict contrapuntal formality, is suited to move the emotions and sentiments; the second piece stands as the definitive, irrefutable demonstration of reason and of intellectual rigour.
Has Suzuki made the rhetorical error of putting introduction (ric. à 3 )
after the narration and argumentation (canons)?
In Marissen's essay we read that Bach "made known his dissatisfaction with the improvisation" for Frederick. Does anyone know what the evidence is?
Quote from: Mandryka on March 01, 2018, 12:00:53 AM
In Marissen's essay we read that Bach "made known his dissatisfaction with the improvisation" for Frederick. Does anyone know what the evidence is?
Bach writes so himself in the dedication (preface).
More from Marissen:
https://books.google.dk/books?id=stD9kfwNTDkC&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=michale+marissen+bach+musical+offering&source=bl&ots=N4in4_cjBA&sig=MffXj2FIexGLE7zcxxe-TtTFQNE&hl=da&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjUpqPg68rZAhUHBcAKHVwbDNcQ6AEISjAE#v=onepage&q=michale%20marissen%20bach%20musical%20offering&f=false
Quote from: (: premont :) on March 01, 2018, 12:58:16 AM
Bach writes so himself in the dedication (preface).
More from Marissen:
https://books.google.dk/books?id=stD9kfwNTDkC&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=michale+marissen+bach+musical+offering&source=bl&ots=N4in4_cjBA&sig=MffXj2FIexGLE7zcxxe-TtTFQNE&hl=da&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjUpqPg68rZAhUHBcAKHVwbDNcQ6AEISjAE#v=onepage&q=michale%20marissen%20bach%20musical%20offering&f=false
Good find. I've just ordered his book "Bach and God"
Quote from: Mandryka on March 01, 2018, 12:00:53 AM
In Marissen's essay we read that Bach "made known his dissatisfaction with the improvisation" for Frederick. Does anyone know what the evidence is?
Funny.
Years ago, Leo van Doeselaar played the Ricercares in the Martinikerk Groningen, and he told the audience a bit about the work, with his usual way of smiling and joking around, and he suggested that Frederick and Bach had been 'teasing' each other.
Frederick considered Bach "the old Bach" (also 'old-fashioned' as a composer/musician) and Frederick was known as a lover of the modern 'galant' / 'rococo' style. So Frederick teased Bach by picking a theme which was very difficult to work out. Bach apparantly got the message and in return he composed a work that was both a masterpiece and a tough one to digest, as if to say "I'll teach you."
Well, something like that. It was fun, because Van Doeselaar was fun. He didn't present it as facts, but as a personal view.
And, of course, Van Doeselaar's performances of the Ricercares were great (the a 3 on the choir organ, the a 6 on the great organ).
In Marissen's paper on Opfer which Premont found, I particularly appreciated the discussion of the Andante of the trio sonata, which has always struck me as a very disconcerting bit of music, I was quite surprised to read that some people think it's an example of Bach trying to write galantly. It's a shame that p96 isn't available on Google Books.
Quote from: Mandryka on March 01, 2018, 06:05:18 AM
In Marissen's paper on Opfer which Premont found, I particularly appreciated the discussion of the Andante of the trio sonata, which has always struck me as a very disconcerting bit of music, I was quite surprised to read that some people think it's an example of Bach trying to write galantly. It's a shame that p96 isn't available on Google Books.
I don't think it should surprise anyone that a musical work composed for FdG and highlighting the kingly instrument should make at least a polite bow in the direction of galant. Perhaps JSB meant to show that his usual avoidance of galant was based not on the inability but rather on the disinclination to write galant.
That said, I would have listen to it again to see if the music actually displays galant tendencies.
In Steven Ledbetter's essay for the Aston Magna recording on Centaur, we are told
Quotemany stylistic elements of this piece [the ricercar a 3] -- its use of motives typical of the galant style, such as duple and triple subdivisions of the beat in quick succession, sudden changes of contrasting materials, sigh motifs and so on -- suggest that it was not only improvised on a piano, but really conceived for things a piano can do that a harpsichord can not.
Quote from: Mandryka on September 29, 2018, 07:51:22 AM
In Steven Ledbetter's essay for the Aston Magna recording on Centaur, we are told:
Many stylistic elements of this piece [the ricercar a 3] -- its use of motives typical of the galant style, such as duple and triple subdivisions of the beat in quick succession, sudden changes of contrasting materials, sigh motifs and so on -- suggest that it was not only improvised on a piano, but really conceived for things a piano can do that a harpsichord can not.
I am not sure, that I subscribe to this. Sigh motifs and sudden changes of contrasting materials existed long time before Bach and as to the duple/triple subdivisions I wonder whether the notes in the duple subdivisions should be played inegal - in accordance with the triple rhythm. I admit that Colin Booth gave me the idea with his "Did Bach really mean that?".
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 29, 2018, 11:47:06 AM
I am not sure, that I subscribe to this. Sigh motifs and sudden changes of contrasting materials existed long time before Bach and as to the duple/triple subdivisions I wonder whether the notes in the duple subdivisions should be played inegal - in accordance with the triple rhythm. I admit that Colin Booth gave me the idea with his "Did Bach really mean that?".
I'm just not sure why he says the rhythms point to the piano. In the recording they play all the keyboard parts on a piano, it's a shame the booklet didn't discuss that decision.
Jordi Savall's recording of BWV 1079 is my favorite.
Today I listened to Konstantin Lifschitz playing a solo piano arrangement and I liked it.
Quote from: Mandryka on September 30, 2018, 10:02:35 AM
I'm just not sure why he says the rhythms point to the piano. In the recording they play all the keyboard parts on a piano, it's a shame the booklet didn't discuss that decision.
Probably to justify the choice of piano for the recording in question. I own the recording and find it very successful, not the least as to the fortepianist. That said, I much prefer harpsichord for The Musical Offering.
BTW have you heard Konstantin Lifschitz' all piano version?
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7961482--bach-musical-offering-prelude-fugue-frescobaldi-toccatas
Quote from: Ras on September 30, 2018, 10:31:22 AM
Jordi Savall's recording of BWV 1079 is my favorite.
Today I listened to Konstantin Lifschitz playing a solo piano arrangement and I liked it.
My favorites are Leonhardt, Arion, Savall, Linde Consort and Messori.
I find Lifschitz interesting but something of an outsider.
Some good performances are mentioned... I recall that I also dug the Terakado et al recording (Denon).
I have a ticket to hear it in London in a couple of weeks
https://www.sjss.org.uk/events/musical-offering
This group, The Bach Players, have a big discography, but I've never knowingly heard a note by them
https://hyphenpress.co.uk/products/music
Quote from: Mandryka on October 01, 2018, 12:15:56 AM
I have a ticket to hear it in London in a couple of weeks
https://www.sjss.org.uk/events/musical-offering
This group, The Bach Players, have a big discography, but I've never knowingly heard a note by them
https://hyphenpress.co.uk/products/music
Here you have two samples of this same program:
http://thebachplayers.org.uk/recordings/musical_offering
PS: Of course, this is not "THE Musical Offering," but "A Musical Offering."
Quote from: Gordo on October 01, 2018, 07:34:01 AM
Here you have two samples of this same program:
http://thebachplayers.org.uk/recordings/musical_offering
One of those many very sympathetic recordings of the Opfer, which would be among my preferred versions, if there wasn't so many others which are better.
Quote from: (: premont :) on October 01, 2018, 12:21:08 PM
One of those many very sympathetic recordings of the Opfer, which would be among my preferred versions, if there wasn't so many others which are better.
Between those two tracks, I largely preferred the interpretation of Buxtehude.
They have a beautiful 2-CD set called "Pachelbel and Bach: Canons and Cantatas" that I recall I enjoyed in the past. :)
(http://thebachplayers.org.uk/images/389/large_hpm011_cover.jpg)
Imagine a bunch of young British toffs playing Bach's musical offering, maybe in a private concert in an Oxford SCR, and you'll get the style of this recording from The Bach Players.
I love the sound in the ensemble pieces, the flute sounds fabulous to me, and it's very truthfully and beautifully engineered. I'm not sure what to make of the keyboard player in solo pieces, when he has nowhere to hide, I enjoyed hearing the recercar à 6 for the way he rolls the chords, the ricercar à 3 less so - generally his approach is the opposite of flamboyant. The instrument is fine if limited in the bass department.
The approach generally suits me very well, maybe because I am both British and a gent. And indeed it may not be totally inappropriate given the context of the first performance
https://www.youtube.com/v/J69f-LdsacE
The above is Rosalyn Tureck's BBC recording of WTC 2. At the end of it (2:47 or thereabouts) there's an interview with Michael Oliver where she says that, according to Wolf, there is internal evidence in the music of the keyboard part of the trio sonata in opfer to show that it was "conceived" for the piano. "In the actual figuration of this work it's very clearly a pianistic kind of conception," she says. Is that right? I don't have Wolf's book.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 25, 2019, 05:55:33 AM
The above is Rosalyn Tureck's BBC recording of WTC 2. At the end of it (2:47 or thereabouts) there's an interview with Michael Oliver where she says that, according to Wolf, there is internal evidence in the music of the keyboard part of the trio sonata in opfer to show that it was "conceived" for the piano. "In the actual figuration of this work it's very clearly a pianistic kind of conception," she says. Is that right? I don't have Wolf's book.
Wolff writes (Bach,The learned musician page 429):
Moreover the motivic material of the interludes in the three-part Ricercar, significantly different from Bach's other keyboard works, was inspired by and conceived for the fortepiano and its new - unlike the harpsichord's - dynamically flexible sound.The words "significantly different from Bach's other keyboard works" may be questioned. Like all human beings Wolff sees what he wants.
He also argues, like so many before him, that the three-part Ricercare more or less is similar to the fugue Bach improvised on the kings fortepiano. Obviously this can't be proved.
Interestingly that's not what Tureck says, she specificly attributes to him the idea that the keyboard part in the trio sonata is for piano.
Just by the by the piece that seems to me "significantly different from Bach's other keyboard works", or indeed anyone else's, is the solo keyboard movement in BWV 1019.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 25, 2019, 07:44:20 AM
Interestingly that's not what Tureck says, she specificly attributes to him the idea that the keyboard part in the trio sonata is for piano.
There is no specific keyboard part in the trio sonata, only the figured bass part (continuo) which can be played on gamba or cello and any keyboard instrument.
Quote from: Mandryka
Just by the by the piece that seems to me "significantly different from Bach's other keyboard works", or indeed anyone else's, is the solo keyboard movement in BWV 1019.
I agree very much with this.
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 25, 2019, 08:26:17 AM
There is no specific keyboard part in the trio sonata, only the figured bass part (continuo) which can be played on gamba or cello and any keyboard instrument.
I never knew that -- I wonder what Tureck was talking about then. She must have just got confused, but still that's surprising given she knew she was being recorded etc.
https://www.youtube.com/v/vEhdwBslkXU&t=787s
This is a concert in Munich with Johann Sonnleitner, Gudrun Schaumann, and Linde Brunmayr. Johann Sonnleitner will be familiar through his AoF
It's rapt and "deepy felt" -- I think it's a real achievement, and it must have been quite a night.
The sound on youtube is pretty terrible, though in a sense it's quite realistic. Imagine yourself at the back of the church, or maybe made to wait outside because you arrived late.
It helps greatly to play it through a good hifi, and not through computer speakers etc.
https://www.youtube.com/v/2eKh8i8Y7xg&ab_channel=AmiYamasaki
AMI YAMASAKI / J.S. Bach Musical Offering BWV1079
Quote from: Mandryka on March 18, 2021, 03:07:40 AM
https://www.youtube.com/v/2eKh8i8Y7xg&ab_channel=AmiYamasaki
AMI YAMASAKI / J.S. Bach Musical Offering BWV1079
What's the point here?
Quote from: (: premont :) on March 18, 2021, 04:29:33 AM
What's the point here?
She's clearly exploring some very original voice techniques, sometimes the sounds don't even seem to come from her body. I think an artist like Yamasaki is essentially within a tradition of self expression, a long tradition in the west which goes at least as far back as Fluxus.
Maybe someone here who understands Japanese could say whether there are any words involved in the performance, especially at the start where she seems to me to be putting words to the Bach tune.
I don't understand the Ami Yamasaki piece, but it appears to have been part of some kind of social media event.
Notes from the full Youtube page
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eKh8i8Y7xg
National Kaohsiung Center for the Arts - Weiwuying
"Music Playing of Musical Offering"
I'm really honored to join this big challenge to play Musical Offering composed by J.S. Bach.
For participating, simply follow these steps:
1. Place your mobile phone or any devices for recording, and START
▸ Say Hi to everyone
▸ Start playing your Musical Offering version
▸ You can share some words before STOP
2. Upload the video to your social media.
#musicalofferingweiwuying
Quote from: T. D. on March 18, 2021, 02:52:13 PM
I don't understand the Ami Yamasaki piece, but it appears to have been part of some kind of social media event.
Notes from the full Youtube page
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eKh8i8Y7xg
National Kaohsiung Center for the Arts - Weiwuying
"Music Playing of Musical Offering"
I'm really honored to join this big challenge to play Musical Offering composed by J.S. Bach.
For participating, simply follow these steps:
1. Place your mobile phone or any devices for recording, and START
▸ Say Hi to everyone
▸ Start playing your Musical Offering version
▸ You can share some words before STOP
2. Upload the video to your social media.
#musicalofferingweiwuying
Here's one from the same idea which sounds like James Tenney, a bit.
https://www.youtube.com/v/Nkp_F-bSYAc&ab_channel=%E7%B6%AD%E6%B1%80%E6%98%A0%E5%83%8F
and another one which drags it kicking and screaming into the world of jazz
https://www.youtube.com/v/FaihimOoGP4&ab_channel=NedRothenberg
Quote from: Mandryka on March 19, 2021, 02:08:18 AM
Here's one from the same idea which sounds like James Tenney, a bit.
https://www.youtube.com/v/Nkp_F-bSYAc&ab_channel=%E7%B6%AD%E6%B1%80%E6%98%A0%E5%83%8F
and another one which drags it kicking and screaming into the world of jazz
https://www.youtube.com/v/FaihimOoGP4&ab_channel=NedRothenberg
There's more of them under the mandarin hashtag, although they generally seem less interesting than the ones you posted. https://www.youtube.com/hashtag/%E8%A1%9B%E6%AD%A6%E7%87%9F%E6%8E%A5%E5%8A%9B%E8%81%AF%E6%BC%94%E9%9F%B3%E6%A8%82%E7%9A%84%E5%A5%89%E7%8D%BB
Leon Doeselaar plays the ricercar A3 on a piano
https://www.youtube.com/v/Lv5A1gy2oys&vl=en
(https://img.discogs.com/CM20vfgV8hSpzyXxYGWngw7noqQ=/fit-in/600x575/filters:strip_icc():format(webp):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-16226233-1605585527-3980.jpeg.jpg)
A middle of the road, and perfectly interpretation, well enough recorded, with no new bold insights as far as I can hear, but with one feature which makes it stand out as worth hearing: the harpsichord. It sounds good, not much bass but it sounds good nonetheless, and when it plays in ensemble it twinkles, gleams, very nicely.
The violin and cello are well caught - you can hear the texture of the string - maybe too close for realism but still, rather fun to hear. And everyone plays in an engaged way.
https://www.youtube.com/v/rUvx_kH2qw0
Any thoughts about why Doeselaar appears twice - just a gimmick or is there an interesting reason?
Quote from: Mandryka on May 14, 2021, 01:35:02 PM
https://www.youtube.com/v/rUvx_kH2qw0
Any thoughts about why Doeselaar appears twice - just a gimmick or is there an interesting reason?
That's very pedagogical, because each Doeselaar plays one of the two voices in the canon. The gambe doesn't participate in the canon but plays just the "royal" theme.
This is fun -- same idea as the Doeselaar
https://www.youtube.com/v/GRqoP-NdkDg&t=85s&ab_channel=NetherlandsBachSociety
Quote from: Mandryka on March 09, 2023, 12:30:03 PM(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTQ2NDMzMy4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2Nzc2NzM2MTZ9)
First impressions are that this is a particularly sensual opfer. The harpsichordist, Philippe Grosvard, gives luxurious renditions of the two ricercars - more
luxe, calm et volupté than expected! The polar opposite of Hantai!
The trio sonata is hedonistic, I can imagine it being played in the
souper du roi.
Quote from: Mandryka on March 18, 2021, 05:01:22 AMShe's clearly exploring some very original voice techniques, sometimes the sounds don't even seem to come from her body. I think an artist like Yamasaki is essentially within a tradition of self expression, a long tradition in the west which goes at least as far back as Fluxus.
Maybe someone here who understands Japanese could say whether there are any words involved in the performance, especially at the start where she seems to me to be putting words to the Bach tune.
It's not Japanese language.
Quote from: premont on September 16, 2016, 09:50:22 AMI remember having read someone (probably line notes to a CD) who proposed that Bach's use of the word Opfer carries a double meaning, the other meaning being victim, victim to king Frederick's capriciousness.
Or victim to the caprice of fate. Look at this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWtQbbstsOg&ab_channel=AlgyIng
Quote from: Mandryka on March 24, 2023, 02:08:37 AMFirst impressions are that this is a particularly sensual opfer. The harpsichordist, Philippe Grosvard, gives luxurious renditions of the two ricercars - more luxe, calm et volupté than expected! The polar opposite of Hantai!
The trio sonata is hedonistic, I can imagine it being played in the souper du roi.
I agree that this is an interesting and rather sensual interpretation, the sensuality caused by a rather pointed articulation and a more frequent use of vibrato than usual nowadays. I cherish Grisvard for the expressive Ricercare a 3 and for playing the Ricercare a 6 with 2x8' without changing stops any time during the piece. My only quibble is that I find that the two slow movements of the triosonata are played too fast and noncommittal.
Quote from: Mandryka on March 24, 2023, 06:42:11 AMOr victim to the caprice of fate. Look at this.
Maybe, maybe not.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71nBEUID3NL._AC_SX679_.jpg)
Released at the end of 2023 but I certainly missed it.
https://hitasura-productions.com/product-category/all/hitasura-exclusive-edition/
Quote from: Mandryka on March 17, 2024, 07:50:43 AM(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71nBEUID3NL._AC_SX679_.jpg)
Released at the end of 2023 but I certainly missed it.
https://hitasura-productions.com/product-category/all/hitasura-exclusive-edition/
A decent interpretation, but I don't think that my high expectations to this ensemble (and particularly to Haas) were fully met.
Quote from: premont on March 17, 2024, 09:26:08 AMA decent interpretation, but I don't think that my high expectations to this ensemble (and particularly to Haas) were fully met.
Yes I liked the ensemble but, on first listen, not so much Haas in the solo pieces, And I too had high expectations of him. I've not heard the sonata yet.