I had just finished listening to Kurt Atterberg's 6th symphony in my car (from the complete symphonies box set - wonderful), and switched over to the radio, and heard something I didn't recognize. Not too strange I know, but what I heard was so intriguing that I had to go on to the radio's web site when I got to work to find out what it was. Anyway, it was Carlos Chavez Symphony No. 4. That surprised me, as it sounded quite late Romantic European I thought. Bottom line is that I enjoyed it. What do any of you think?
Quote from: Sef on September 26, 2008, 10:27:47 AM
I had just finished listening to Kurt Atterberg's 6th symphony in my car (from the complete symphonies box set - wonderful), and switched over to the radio, and heard something I didn't recognize. Not too strange I know, but what I heard was so intriguing that I had to go on to the radio's web site when I got to work to find out what it was. Anyway, it was Carlos Chavez Symphony No. 4. That surprised me, as it sounded quite late Romantic European I thought. Bottom line is that I enjoyed it. What do any of you think?
Very fine music, indeed; I greatly enjoy the
Mata/LSO box of six symphonies . . . which is labeled "Complete Symphonies," but I read that there is a
Seventh. Haven't been able to find any information on the Seventh, at all, though.
Quote from: karlhenning on September 26, 2008, 10:34:56 AM
Very fine music, indeed; I greatly enjoy the Mata/LSO box of six symphonies . . . which is labeled "Complete Symphonies," but I read that there is a Seventh. Haven't been able to find any information on the Seventh, at all, though.
I put a hold on this box set at the local library this morning! That fact that it is currently out would seem to suggest that I am not the only one in my smallish town interested in this composer.
Quote from: Sef on September 26, 2008, 10:27:47 AM
...That surprised me, as it sounded quite late Romantic European I thought...
Interesting. The only music by Chavez that I know is the
Sinfonia india (#2?), and it's many interesting things, but doesn't sound either particularly European or very Romantic. But composers have been know to change and mix styles. ;)
Quote from: jochanaan on September 26, 2008, 02:37:19 PM
Interesting. The only music by Chavez that I know is the Sinfonia india (#2?), and it's many interesting things, but doesn't sound either particularly European or very Romantic. But composers have been know to change and mix styles. ;)
The first thought that came to my head was Shostakovich without the drama. Naxos describes his music as "highly distinctive use of crossrhythms, syncopation, irregular meter and colourful orchestration". I think I'd need to emphasize the
late in late romantic.
(Should this thread be in the Composer Discussion Forum?)
I have never heard of a Seventh Symphony. The Chavez website doesn't list one-
http://www.chez.com/craton/musique/chavez/english.htm
Quote from: jochanaan on September 26, 2008, 02:37:19 PM
Interesting. The only music by Chavez that I know is the Sinfonia india (#2?), and it's many interesting things, but doesn't sound either particularly European or very Romantic. But composers have been know to change and mix styles. ;)
.... and the 4th Symphony is subtitled the Romantic!
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 26, 2008, 02:43:55 PM
(Should this thread be in the Composer Discussion Forum?)
Probably!
Quote from: DundonnellI have never heard of a Seventh Symphony. The Chavez website doesn't list one-
http://www.chez.com/craton/musique/chavez/english.htm
I remember not turning up any
other reference to it; so I wonder if it is an erratum in the article on
Chávez in the
Harvard Biographical Dictionary . . . .
Must be something about seventh symphonies :)
I know that Camargo Guarnieri, the Brazilian composer, wrote at least six-BIS has released them and I have them all ;D but I am sure that I read somewhere that he actually wrote seven and I can't trace a seventh either :(
Guarnieri btw was a fine composer and I actually think that his symphonies(and the piano concertos too) are both a lot more disciplined than those by his more famous countryman Villa-Lobos(though that wouldn't be too hard ;D ;)) but also more impressive!
Great composer. Craggy and mysterious, reminds me of Havergal Brian. Favourites are the No 2 and No 4. I have the Vox box set. Must listen to No 6 which is highly regarded.
Quote from: vandermolen on September 27, 2008, 09:30:57 AM
Great composer. Craggy and mysterious, reminds me of Havergal Brian. Favourites are the No 2 and No 4. I have the Vox box set. Must listen to No 6 which is highly regarded.
"Craggy and mysterious" is right up my street - hurry up and return that box set to the library!
Quote from: Sef on September 27, 2008, 07:02:09 PM
"Craggy and mysterious" is right up my street - hurry up and return that box set to the library!
Certainly not! I purchased it with my very own hard-earned money. There is a v good ASV CD too with the very craggy, Brian-like (IMHO) Sinfonia de Antigone (which I should have listed as one of my favourites) and Sinfonia India and Symphony No 4 (Cond. Enrique Batiz). A great starting point for investigating Chavez (CD DCA 1058). :)
Quote from: jochanaan on September 26, 2008, 02:37:19 PM
Interesting. The only music by Chavez that I know is the Sinfonia india (#2?), and it's many interesting things, but doesn't sound either particularly European or very Romantic. But composers have been know to change and mix styles. ;)
The later symphonies are more neo-Classical. Craggy is a good description. The spirit of Beethoven's more difficult works came to mind when I heard them (though certainly not the
sound of Beethoven).
I bought a disc of his three string quartets (played by the Quarteto Latinoamerica) and found very little of the adventureness of his orchestral music (which I admittedly tend to think occasionally turns more to mannerism than into very interesting music). Initially I fund the quite dull, after 3 listens I find them OK but not very original and communicative (that is, with little to say).
On more careful examination of the Chavez website(linked above) I do see a Sinfonia for orchestra from 1918(when the composer was 20) and a Sinfonia Proletaria for chorus and orchestra 'Llamads' from 1934.
So one or either of these could count as a 'seventh symphony' :)
I've had the Vox box of the symphonies on my shelf for a few months, and this thread inspired me to break it out for the first time. I really enjoyed the Sinfonia India! It has a very distinctive New World sound, in part because of the way it draws on Native American melodies. It reminds me a bit of Revueltas, Copland, and the soundtracks of classic Hollywood westerns.
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 28, 2008, 11:16:17 AM
On more careful examination of the Chavez website(linked above) I do see a Sinfonia for orchestra from 1918(when the composer was 20) and a Sinfonia Proletaria for chorus and orchestra 'Llamads' from 1934.
So one or either of these could count as a 'seventh symphony' :)
No, no; according to the
Harvard Biographical Dictionary, an actual no. 7, at a date later than no. 6 . . . I'll try to dig it up today or tommorow.
Quote from: karlhenning on September 29, 2008, 05:16:03 AM
No, no; according to the Harvard Biographical Dictionary, an actual no. 7, at a date later than no. 6 . . . I'll try to dig it up today or tommorow.
Well...he sure did write half of No.7 at least :)
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,871041,00.html?iid=digg_share
He made the first steps of the 7th, but the score is no accessible.
Quote from: epicous on October 03, 2008, 10:21:18 PM
He made the first steps of the 7th, but the score is no accessible.
Ah! Thanks for that information :)
Erato was spot on with his review of the 3 SQs. I got this cd expecting great things, and yes, dullish would be the description. Haydn+Roy Harris (whose chamber music also doesn't live up to the syms.) The Soli II for string trio (1965) is a different matter. As I love saying, many composers of this generation (V-L, Malipiero, Bloch, Chavez, Rawsthorne, et al) experienced a hardening of their language, post war. Chavez developed his "non-repetition" principle, which mirrors the "cellular metamorphoses" techniques of Pijper and Holmboe and the such.
The Southwest Chamber ens. seems to be recording all of Chavez's chamber music (I think they've also won a couple of Grammys for this series), 4 vols. of which were at Enoch Pratt libr. in Baltimore, and there are a few interesting things there (either from the 20s or 60s), but I find that the Dorian cd of Chavez chamber music puts some of the best on one cd. My fav work is Energia (1925) for ens., a work which frankly sounds just a little like Xenakis to me. Very wild in a Varese kind of way, very experimental for Chavez.
I used to have the Vox syms., and I noticed how syms. 3-6 sounded a LOT like Hindemith...a LOT. I liked 'em.
The first 2 syms. do have an incredible Mayan/Aztec soundworld, though. The "famous" one, I think, got a great recording by TilsonThomas on Argo.
But for some REAL Mexican music you'll have to go to Revueltas. The SQs (by the same team), the RCA 2cd retrospective, and the chamber disc on Dorian almost complete this composer's fairly small work list.
So the Dorian cd is worth investigating? Is that the one containing Energia, Tambuco and Xochipilli?
I played The Sinfonia India in orchestra once and thought it rather amateurishly done - is he worth exploring then?
Quote from: Guido on April 24, 2009, 02:43:34 PM
I played The Sinfonia India in orchestra once and thought it rather amateurishly done - is he worth exploring then?
In a word- Yes!
The symphonies are rich, colourful and dramatic and-to my ears-more interesting than those by, say, Villa-Lobos.
An extract from the Sinfonia India conducted by Dudamel with the Berlin Philharmonic(who I cannot imagine had ever played much if any Chavez before!)-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Lc-T1Jvvvs
Quote from: Guido on April 24, 2009, 02:43:34 PM
I played The Sinfonia India in orchestra once and thought it rather amateurishly done - is he worth exploring then?
Amateurishly composed or amateurishly played? The
Sinfonia India, his most popular work, is not typical Chavez. I recommend trying the Everest CD of Symphonies 1, 2 and 4 with the composer conductiong the NYP. The Chavez 4th makes a very nice companion to the Piston 4th.
http://www.amazon.com/Carlos-Chávaez-Sinfonia-Antigona-Romantica/dp/B001885BZC
Also, the Southwest Chamber Music series of Chavez chamber works is fantastic.
Quote from: Daverz on April 24, 2009, 05:51:57 PM
Amateurishly composed or amateurishly played? The Sinfonia India, his most popular work, is not typical Chavez. I recommend trying the Everest CD of Symphonies 1, 2 and 4 with the composer conductiong the NYP. The Chavez 4th makes a very nice companion to the Piston 4th.
http://www.amazon.com/Carlos-Chávaez-Sinfonia-Antigona-Romantica/dp/B001885BZC
Also, the Southwest Chamber Music series of Chavez chamber works is fantastic.
I meant composed, but I guess we played it amateurishly too! I just found the the whole thing lacked subtlety, the orchestration was coarse and far too thickly scored, the ideas were a little asinine... I also found myself rolling my snobbish eyes and thinking "Well done Chavez, you've discovered 5/8 as a time signature." !! ;D
I am a big fanof Piston though, so I will definitely check that CD out. Cheers!
Oh well...maybe the Sinfonia India was not the best place to start then :(
The Vox box(LSO/Mata) has all six symphonies and Nos. 1(Sinfonia de Antigona) and No.4(Sinfonia Romantica) are certainly worth hearing! There is/was an ASV disc with both these symphonies played by the Royal Philharmonic and Mexico City Philharmonic conducted by Enrique Batiz which is worth the investment. (Batiz was a fine conductor-not heard of him recently though.)
I agree that Chavez is well worth exploring. The craggy Sinfonia de Antigona reminds me of Havergal Brian - perhaps a deeper work than the (very enjoyable) Sinfonia India.
The CD below is my favourite:
Quote from: Dax on April 24, 2009, 02:38:49 PM
So the Dorian cd is worth investigating? Is that the one containing Energia, Tambuco and Xochipilli?
Yes.
Quote from: Guido on April 24, 2009, 06:05:21 PM
I just found the the whole thing lacked subtlety, the orchestration was coarse and far too thickly scored, the ideas were a little asinine... I also found myself rolling my snobbish eyes and thinking "Well done Chavez, you've discovered 5/8 as a time signature." !!
It's a fresco!!!
No offence, Guido, but I am fantasizing about a hapless composer who happens to get an orchestra full of Guidos to premiere his opus1. The orchestra that strikes fear into the heart of composers everywhere,haha ;D! Would the quality of music today be better if we had THAT setup??? :Dhmmm...
"Arnold...it's just that...mmm....your piece sucks. Mmm...please...try again." :o
Quote from: snyprrr on April 25, 2009, 10:24:38 AM
No offence, Guido, but I am fantasizing about a hapless composer who happens to get an orchestra full of Guidos to premiere his opus1. The orchestra that strikes fear into the heart of composers everywhere,haha ;D! Would the quality of music today be better if we had THAT setup??? :Dhmmm...
"Arnold...it's just that...mmm....your piece sucks. Mmm...please...try again." :o
In general, I think I have a very open mind and like composers of every genre, style, period, philosophical and political persuasion, level of dissonance, 'difficulty' etc... the fact that I am willing to explore more of a composer's work despite disliking what I have already heard of theirs should speak to this! In fact there is hardly a 20th century composer that I do not like to some degree... that said, I can't be expected to like everything. I think that you are in general far more dismissive of more works than I am! (I won't embarrass you with examples from this forum!) ;D
I admire Arnold very much - lots of pieces by him I really like - concerto for 2 violins, sinfoniettas, serenade - the only piece by him that I have smack-talked is the terrible cello concerto - and I'm hardly alone in this - it got univerally terrible reviews, and it was so bad in fact that Julian Lloyd Webber, the cellist who comissioned it, wouldn't record it.
For those who like percussion music : both Tambucco and Toccata are good, fun pieces for "standard" percussion instruments . I have also an older recording of Chavez massive pianoconcerto ( ca 40 mins.) Must listen again - it didn't make a favorable impression some time ago....
Peter
Quote from: pjme on April 26, 2009, 11:37:24 PM
For those who like percussion music : both Tambucco and Toccata are good, fun pieces for "standard" percussion instruments . I have also an older recording of Chavez massive pianoconcerto ( ca 40 mins.) Must listen again - it didn't make a favorable impression some time ago....
Peter
I have two recordings of the Piano Concerto, one with Eugene List as soloist and Chavez himself conducting the Vienna State Opera Orch., one with Maria Teresa Rodriguez, piano - Eduardo Mata conducting the New Philharmonia Orchestra. The List is sort of strange -- it's as if he was playing just a microsecond ahead. The Rodriguez/Mata is much better. Neither, as far as I know, Has been releaded on CD.
Moi, dismissive, no?
But I will dismiss Chavez's piano sonatas as Haydnesque trifles. 0:)I think comparisons between Chavez and Harris would be interesting...but not for long!
though, I can see the banality of the music when compared to the brutality of the muse
Quote from: gomro on April 27, 2009, 07:09:24 PM
I have two recordings of the Piano Concerto, one with Eugene List as soloist and Chavez himself conducting the Vienna State Opera Orch., one with Maria Teresa Rodriguez, piano - Eduardo Mata conducting the New Philharmonia Orchestra. The List is sort of strange -- it's as if he was playing just a microsecond ahead. The Rodriguez/Mata is much better. Neither, as far as I know, Has been released on CD.
On a double MCA Millenium CD AD2 80086 the pianoconcerto was reissued. ( with Mc Dowell 2 pianoconcerti and Sonata tragica / Woodland sketches )
I'm listening.... Chavez 1938-1940 pianoconcerto is a big, busy work with a huge 20 mins. first movement ( Largo, ma non troppo - Allegro agitato), a ca 10 mins. Molto lento and a 6.25 mins. Allegro finale.
The first movement is very nervous, ever shifting, driving, motoric, almost repetitive....I 'm reminded of Villa Lobos in his most serious, ambitious vein.
strange...interesting...
Hmmm - it's a real marathon for piano & orchestra. Exhausting. No doubt, Chavez has the "clout" to make a bold statement ( brillant pianism, original orchestration ,with prominent brass, harp, celesta, percussion, )- but I missed definition, clarity....Still, a musical jungle of some weight.
P.
Quote from: snyprrr on April 27, 2009, 10:19:54 PM
But I will dismiss Chavez's piano sonatas as Haydnesque trifles.
Haydn's piano sonatas are not trifles, snippy.
Try his violin concerto (Szering-Chavez)
I also have the Mata/LSO set of the symphonies and enjoy them.
It's surprising that the Sinfonia India isn't played more often;it's such a colorful and exuberant work.
I remember the piano concerto from the RCA Lp,and this should also be taken up by more of today's pianists, possibly Gabriela Montero or Ingrid Fliter,who are from South America. We need a first-rate new recording on CD,and the older ones should also be reissued. Posibly Gustavo Dudamel will give us more Chavez when he takes over in LA next season.
Eduardo Mata (1942-1995) was a pupil of Chavez andwas a composer as well as a fine conductor. His untimely death in a crash of his private plane was a real tragedy.
Quote from: Daverz on April 28, 2009, 11:29:07 AM
Haydn's piano sonatas are not trifles, snippy.
I was so rude when I got here, haha.
I am reaquainting myself with the SouthWestChamber series from the library. Yes, there is some of Chavez that snores me, but there is so much that reminds me of Varese or Xenakis. And, ultimately, Chavez is such a Romantic figure for me, all that mysterious Mexican stuff and,...brrr,ooohh... chilly, haha!
On this Vol.4 they have a lot of the same pieces as on that great Dorian chamber disc, but one piece that stood out as a very Revueltas kind of piece (and Chavez's only piece dedicated to Revueltas),
Cantos de Mexico, for Mexican orchestra. It's 3 mvmts. in 6mins., and it is just the most fun you'll have with your clothes on. It's definitely stereotypical, but in the most exquisitely crafted way. Perfect!
Another piece,
Lamentaciones, for Mezzo, flute, oboe, and two Mexican percussions, is very brief and moving. Two song cycles, Tres Exagonos, and Otros Tres Exagonos, with the Dali-esque SQ configuration of flute/piccolo, oboe/EH, viola, and bassoon, is really something unique and interesting. It reminds me that Chavez is a pusher of things.
A highlight is the original chamber version of the Sym No.1,
Antigone. It has that same Greek sound. Great! It reminds me a bit of Falla's Harpsicord Concerto.
The 9min
Partita for tympani didn't seem as STOP THE PRESSES as the notes wanted me to believe, but, as a final makeweight to this percussive edition of the series, it fits just fine. I'm hoping to make a compilation cd of al the highlights of the series later.
Does anyone else have any of the Cambria chamber cds, Vols. 1-4?
Quote from: erato on September 28, 2008, 01:34:33 AM
I bought a disc of his three string quartets (played by the Quarteto Latinoamerica) and found very little of the adventureness of his orchestral music (which I admittedly tend to think occasionally turns more to mannerism than into very interesting music). Initially I fund the quite dull, after 3 listens I find them OK but not very original and communicative (that is, with little to say).
I like this disc fine.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 01, 2010, 07:06:55 AM
I like this disc fine.
What do you like best, or wot not? I have to agree that I was really disappointed here. The 3rd SQ, from the '40s, has a nice smooth Hindemithian melancoly to it, but the other two do seem pretty Mendelssohnian in their agreeableness.
The late string trio, however, has grit aplenty.
Quote from: snyprrr on February 01, 2010, 07:32:46 AM
What do you like best, or wot not? I have to agree that I was really disappointed here. The 3rd SQ, from the '40s, has a nice smooth Hindemithian melancoly to it, but the other two do seem pretty Mendelssohnian in their agreeableness.
The late string trio, however, has grit aplenty.
Overall, I think this is music with a different profile, and with different aims, to those of the symphonies . . . and while I like the symphonies very much, I don't object to these differences.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 01, 2010, 07:06:55 AM
I like this disc fine.
The disc is nice, but the music on it didn't tickle my ear. Well, perhaps you've prompted me into a relisten.
Carlos Chavez was one of the first Latin American composers I got into along with Villa-Lobos and Ginastera (Revueltas came shortly later). I heard Chavez's "Sinfonia India" when I bought the Eduardo Mata Dorian box set titled "Latin America Alive," which collects all of his Latin recordings for Dorian. Anyway, I was taken by surprise by this symphony because it sounded nothing like anything I've heard before. As somebody said, it wasn't Romantic or even particuarly European. This all makes sense since the "India" in this symphony refers the the "Indians" that were native to Mexico before the Spanish settled. He studied the folk music of these native people and, of course, blended these folk melodies with more modern harmony and rhythm. It's a fantastic work. The second work I heard by Chavez was "Horse Power Suite," which is a ballet (also included in the Latin American Alive set). This is a thrilling work from start to finish and I have heard one other version since hearing the Mata and it was with Batiz, but I was much more impressed with Mata's conducting. I'm thrilled to see a thread dedicated to him as he truly deserves to be heard.
Anything new on the Chavez front?
Quote from: snyprrr on August 07, 2013, 10:03:07 AM
Anything new on the Chavez front?
Aside from the
Piano Concerto that appeared on the Cedille label, nothing much going on unfortunately. I really wish his craggy symphonies would get recorded again. Also, it would be nice for the ballets to be included in the set. I'm just full of fantasies today. :)
I really hope that another aspiring conductor comes along and records all of the six symphonies. This would be a great project for BIS but they're too busy with mainstream repertoire these days. :-\ I believe Naxos should take up the Chavez mantle as well and record a whole orchestral series. But I know, I know I'm fantasizing yet again. :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 09, 2013, 05:57:20 PM
I really hope that another aspiring conductor comes along and records all of the six symphonies. This would be a great project for BIS but they're too busy with mainstream repertoire these days. :-\ I believe Naxos should take up the Chavez mantle as well and record a whole orchestral series. But I know, I know I'm fantasizing yet again. :)
I'm with you, John. The only worthwhile thing BIS has been doing recently is the continuation of their invaluable Aho series. Other than that, they've gone sharply downhill as a label. Take a look at their newest releases and you'll see what I mean: http://bis.se/index.php
Quote from: kyjo on September 09, 2013, 06:13:56 PM
I'm with you, John. The only worthwhile thing BIS has been doing recently is the continuation of their invaluable Aho series. Other than that, they've gone sharply downhill as a label. Take a look at their newest releases and you'll see what I mean: http://bis.se/index.php
Yes, I've been aware of their decline for some time, but I do agree their Aho recordings are the only things keeping me interested in the label at the moment. I wish a conductor like Gisele Ben-Dor would record a whole Chavez series. She did wonders with Ginastera, Villa-Lobos, and Revueltas.
I like Chavez's craggy 4th Symphony. Oddly enough it reminds me of Havergal Brian.
Quote from: kyjo on September 09, 2013, 06:13:56 PM
I'm with you, John. The only worthwhile thing BIS has been doing recently is the continuation of their invaluable Aho series. Other than that, they've gone sharply downhill as a label. Take a look at their newest releases and you'll see what I mean: http://bis.se/index.php
Wow! Handel's Water Music and Tchaikovsky's Sixth!! In-c-c-credible! :o
Wonderful as these pieces of music undoubtedly are,one can't help but think..............oh dear,they must be short of ideas! The poor dears!! And again,as has been pointed out elsewhere;what have these new versions got that would make me want to replace all time classics by world renowned conductors and ensembles?!! ??? :( Dvorak's Ninth is another one! If I had a pound for every review I've seen of a new recording of Dvorak's ninth symphony telling me that this is
the version to have!! I love it,but.........!!! ??? :( >:(
Come on BIS.Pull your proverbial finger out and record a Hilding Rosenberg cycle,for goodness sake!! >:(
Chavez's Fourth sounds a bit like Havergal Brian?! Sounds interesting! :)
These days I often get put on to a new composer by a thread here, however with Chavez it was that I bought the two disc LP set from Haydn House, listened to them and then came here to find out what people thought.
Like posters here I was very impressed, the symphonies were completely not what I expected them to sound like and I was thrilled by Chavez use of the symphony orchestra, his ability to conjure new sounds and timbres from the standard orchestra (I don't think he uses any exotic instruments other than some percussion). Each symphony is different and yet all of them have immense drive and cogency.
Did someone say that one of the symphonies sounded like Havergal Brian? Independently I thought this about the 2nd, which reminded me of HB's 6th (both depicting tragedies, Chavez Antigone, Brian Synge's Deirdre of the Sorrows).
Why don't we hear music like this more often on our classical music radio channels?
Yes, I made the HB connection comment - especially true I think in connection to Chavez's craggy 4thSymphony.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 07, 2013, 10:50:49 AM
Aside from the Piano Concerto that appeared on the Cedille label, nothing much going on unfortunately. I really wish his craggy symphonies would get recorded again. Also, it would be nice for the ballets to be included in the set. I'm just full of fantasies today. :)
Quote from: vandermolen on September 10, 2013, 12:38:51 PM
I like Chavez's craggy 4th Symphony. Oddly enough it reminds me of Havergal Brian.
I picked up the set (again) for $2 yesterday. And yes, those familiar turgid tones greeted me. Chavez here sounds a lot like Hindemith having Berg fainting spell- wow are they overheated Romantic hot house flowers! Especially the 'Neo Romantic' ones,3-6.
No.5, for String Orchestra, has the most annoying semitone waving I've heard outside of Minimalism. Aye- vandermolen- wtf?? He just does this trill thing, starting reeeally slower- back and forth- I'll have to listen again, but... anyhow, I still like the "old" air that these recordings smell of. They make me feel like I'm in 1958.
Is there a better recording of No.1?
Really, way back when, I was really surprised at the MOR sound of these later Symphonies- I can't figure out who No.6 reminds me of- but Chavez really seems like he wanted to be 'normal' and write like everyone else did. Malipiero? Bloch? Hindemith? Yes, there's plenty of crag and bluff here, all swept up in an overheated Romantic gushing that would sound maudlin if the wrong notes were used- Chavez barely uses the right ones, haha, skirting that fine line between 'mmm' and 'eh'.
Still, I just love the mustiness of this set- reminds me of the good old days of seeking out Classical.
That disc of the PC and VC- wow, it's really not very available.
The 8 disc Mata set is available for $11. Hmmm???
Looking into Chavez today, I see I may like the 'idea' of Chavez better than what I see on paper. To me, his reputation rests on being the Mexican Modernist, evidenced by the absurdist 'Energia', and some pretty wild settings from the '20s, not to mention writing such a perfect piece of popular music like the Symphony No.2 'India'.
But looking over the Works List, there's a LOT of Haydnesque Piano Music, and his Chamber Music for Strings exhibits scarcely a trace of interest to the Modern Listener. As much of a service as the 4 Volume Cycle of 'Complete Chamber Music' is, the actual quality of the music is considerably variable. Chavez wrote some interesting music under the titles 'Invencion' and 'Soli', but these are spread out in the above set, and the percussion music is first rate, but the best way to sample them is through that great Dorian disc of Chamber Music.
In a way, Chavez comes off a little better than the 'Mexican Roy Harris'- Chavez is surely more imaginative, but has so music 'normal' music as to make his interesting pieces quite a small number. But, when Chavez hits, he hits hard and with an unmistakable personality. It just seems as though the melodies he chooses naturally want to develop in the manner in which he does- there's certainly a fluidity to Chavez (though, some of that note spinning can get quite turgid at times on a par with 'ugly' Hindemith). The last 4 Symphonies do all have a very very similar soundscape, though, and one does wish that Chavez might break out of his normal pattern to return to the experimentations of the '20s.
His two concertos, for Piano and Violin, are massive Neo-Classical/Romantic monuments of over thirty minutes apiece, and exhibit a language that sound a lot like... well, a Mexican Hindemith- which, frankly, is what I like! I certainly like Chavez's PC more than Hindemith's, but... nevermind... The late Trombone Concerto, his very last work in 1977, is a darker beast and should be pursued by fans of Christian Lindberg.
There's also some smaller orchestral pieces sprinkled throughout Mata's traversal of Mexican Classical, but, ultimately, Revueltas takes honours here with more interesting music. Where Chavez reigns is in the few Big Works that support his unique fusion-vision (which is quite powerful), and in his landmark percussion works, but should you venture farther you might be disappointed. There's no need to collect every work here. And even Ginastera's output is not enough to slake the thirst for Latin Romantique, so, enjoy what there is. (perhaps it is that a lot of Chavez fits so perfectly into the Hollywood stereotype?)
ESSENTIAL CHAVEZ:
1. Symphony 1"Antigone": very modal and "ancient" sounding, when played well this may be Chavez's single most evocative piece.
2. Symphony 2 "India": his 'Hit', and a fine single-mvmt piece of Epic. I still think MTT reigns here.
3. the Dorian disc of Chamber Music - maybe the single classic Chavez recital, a little bit of everything good. It actually makes good portions of the 'Complete' set obsolete on arrival.
4. Piano & Violin Concertos: both available in old performance, which are nice, but, we could use new recordings here (Naxos?) of these mighty works (Villa-Lobos never wrote a VC...).
5. Trombone Concerto: for those who want a good Final Work.
6. 'Exagonos & 'Ortos Exagonos'- vocal settings that are quite inventive.
7. 'Horsepower' Suite: Dorian- a nice ballet, on a great disc.
Frankly, the String Quartet Music- even the 2disc set of all String Chamber Music on the Southwest set- are really nothing all that interesting, reeeally, and the Piano Music is resolutely 'old fashioned music'- salon- which, DON'T GET ME WRONG- is totally charming if that's what you'd like- Mexican "Classical" Music- and yes, it has a 'Western' flavour you will probably like- but it WILL put you to sleep... no doubt!!!! haha
It would be nice if someone made a more intelligent Chamber Music recital to more complement the Dorian. By all means get the Southwest set if you must, and for completeists it's essential- but, much of it is available elsewhere and it's getting a bit expensive. At least wait.
Thanks for the overview!
Symphony No.6 (1961)
This is Chavez's Big Work, and I suggest getting that VoxBox off the shelf and listening to the concluding Passacaglia. Any movement that starts off with a theme in the tuba can't be all bad, right? And, at over a quarter hour, - if Chavez had anything to say- there is ample time for some substantial idea development. I cannot help but to hear the influence of Hindemithian procedure, but with a more emotional core? Either way, something about this music being from 1961 gives me some cozy feelings about the 'End of the Romantic Age' and how this music represents the recent past (musically) rather than the future. It's quite rigorous, but very quaint at the same time- it really epitomizes a sort of naivete that was soon going to be obliterated forever,... The Last Romantic?
Quote from: snyprrr on June 26, 2014, 10:22:39 AM
Symphony No.6 (1961)
This is Chavez's Big Work, and I suggest getting that VoxBox off the shelf and listening to the concluding Passacaglia. Any movement that starts off with a theme in the tuba can't be all bad, right? And, at over a quarter hour, - if Chavez had anything to say- there is ample time for some substantial idea development. I cannot help but to hear the influence of Hindemithian procedure, but with a more emotional core? Either way, something about this music being from 1961 gives me some cozy feelings about the 'End of the Romantic Age' and how this music represents the recent past (musically) rather than the future. It's quite rigorous, but very quaint at the same time- it really epitomizes a sort of naivete that was soon going to be obliterated forever,... The Last Romantic?
I need to get my Vox set back out and give this symphony a spin. The symphonies that stick out in my memory are the 1st, 2nd, and the 4th. I really wish these symphonies would get recorded again. Where's John Neschling or Giselle Ben-Dor when you need them?
Edit: BTW, for better performances of
Symphonies 1 & 4 then you need to turn to Enrique Batiz on ASV (later reissued in a set by Brilliant Classics titled
Musica Mexicana) and for
Sinfonia India (Symphony No. 2) I recommend Mata's performance on the Dorian label.
Brilliant appears to be reissuing the Voxbox sometime in November.
http://www.t2entertainment.nl/products/73003/Chavez;%20Complete%20Symphonies/5028421948584
http://www.qobuz.com/fr-fr/album/chavez-complete-symphonies-london-symphony-orchestra-eduardo-mata/5028421948584
Dear Record Labels,
WE WANT NEW PERFORMANCES OF CHAVEZ'S SYMPHONIES! NOW!!!!
Sincerely,
Seymour Butts
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 28, 2014, 08:21:40 PM
I need to get my Vox set back out and give this symphony a spin. The symphonies that stick out in my memory are the 1st, 2nd, and the 4th. I really wish these symphonies would get recorded again. Where's John Neschling or Giselle Ben-Dor when you need them?
Edit: BTW, for better performances of Symphonies 1 & 4 then you need to turn to Enrique Batiz on ASV (later reissued in a set by Brilliant Classics titled Musica Mexicana) and for Sinfonia India (Symphony No. 2) I recommend Mata's performance on the Dorian label.
But, we're all so used to the sound of the VoxBox- something better sounding might ruin the whole thing, haha!!
I'd suggest waiting for a 'weather' day for Chavez.- I can barely recall the differences between 3-6, they're all quite overheated Romantic hothouse flowers- I wouldn't listen to them all in one sitting. Hmm, when was that- June? The VoxBox is still sitting here on the Peavey- the whole time. I look at it and go... eh. not tpday...
do you have the Piano Concerto? I really really like it, though it is quite the nugget to digest- it sounds real nice...
...always curious about that Batiz...
Quote from: snyprrr on September 29, 2014, 07:15:48 AM
But, we're all so used to the sound of the VoxBox- something better sounding might ruin the whole thing, haha!!
I'd suggest waiting for a 'weather' day for Chavez.- I can barely recall the differences between 3-6, they're all quite overheated Romantic hothouse flowers- I wouldn't listen to them all in one sitting. Hmm, when was that- June? The VoxBox is still sitting here on the Peavey- the whole time. I look at it and go... eh. not tpday...
do you have the Piano Concerto? I really really like it, though it is quite the nugget to digest- it sounds real nice...
...always curious about that Batiz...
Yep, I own the
Piano Concerto and don't really care for it. Some problems for me are its duration which would be different if it had enough variation and contrasts to keep it interesting and the fact that it doesn't really go anywhere. In a concerto, I think there should be some kind lyrical narrative happening and I don't really hear that in this work. I love Chavez's music, though, but like any composer, there are some works which I simply don't enjoy.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 29, 2014, 09:12:02 AM
Yep, I own the Piano Concerto and don't really care for it. Some problems for me are its duration which would be different if it had enough variation and contrasts to keep it interesting and the fact that it doesn't really go anywhere. In a concerto, I think there should be some kind lyrical narrative happening and I don't really hear that in this work. I love Chavez's music, though, but like any composer, there are some works which I simply don't enjoy.
yes, I mean, it's a beastly, overblown Neo-Romantic- as if Penderecki's Violin Concerto had been turned into Hoffmann operetta- for me it works great as background music- no, you wouldn't really need to pay attention- but I will sort of agree that it's a hot mess- like a hot drunk girl in cutoffs and a tee-... uh,... so, what was it you didn't like? I reminds a little of the first movement of Lou Harrison;s PC- that typical 'Stravinskyian Neo-Classic Major 7th... with a 9th...
Violin Concerto? I don't recall liking that one.
Quote from: snyprrr on September 30, 2014, 09:22:38 AM
yes, I mean, it's a beastly, overblown Neo-Romantic- as if Penderecki's Violin Concerto had been turned into Hoffmann operetta- for me it works great as background music- no, you wouldn't really need to pay attention- but I will sort of agree that it's a hot mess- like a hot drunk girl in cutoffs and a tee-... uh,... so, what was it you didn't like? I reminds a little of the first movement of Lou Harrison;s PC- that typical 'Stravinskyian Neo-Classic Major 7th... with a 9th...
Violin Concerto? I don't recall liking that one.
Hmmm...I already explained what I didn't like about the Chavez PC in my response to you above. :)
Quote from: snyprrr on August 07, 2013, 10:03:07 AM
Anything new on the Chavez front?
I'm doing a Chavez reassessment, and it's not coming up all roses. :(
Symphonies 3-6I forced myself through Symphonies 6, 5, and 4, in that order (from the MataVox), and, I came away a little congested, somewhat bloated and puffy. Though I still do apprciate Chavez's melos here, somewhat overheated Hindemith, it's so dated that I think I've had enough. And, if I have to, I always go to the 6th first.
Then I went to No.3, which I couldn't tell you a thing about now. That's Four Symphonies that pretty much sound a lot alike, in a manner that others did a bit better, forgive me. We all have the set and know for yourselves.
Symphony No.2 'IndiaI still like it. Who doesn't? So, here I'll just lay out the, I believe, three recordings:
1) Chavez/NY Stadium Orch. (Everest, and others): this is the most clinically symphonic of the lot. It's good, but others have more recorded atmosphere. Maybe too fast?
2) MataVox: I now find this the least expressive of the lot.
3) Is there a Mata on Dorian as well? I haven't heard this one...
4) Batiz/ASV: a bit more recessed recording than the others, the most atmospheric, the percussion isn't as loud as in others, but still has punch. I kind of like this one now. It's quick, yet poetic, the perfect tempo. Slow buildup very good.
5) MTT: a little slower and metrical sounding next to the Batiz, but still has great percussion and slow part buildup.
Symphony No.1 'Antigone'1) Chavez: good, atmospheric, very upfront recording of the style.
2) MataVox: good percussion, ok version.
3) Batiz/ASV: slower than its rivals, this one milks every drop to perfection. Again, particular ASV recording, but percussion comes off well. This is my choice, and one of his most original works.
3 ConcertosAs of today i have dismissed all three concertos.
'Horse Power' Ballet (Dorian, w/ Villa-Lobos & Ginastera)
Today I found it dull light music.
Toccata, Paisajes? Mexicanas, The Hija de Coledeeca?, Baile (ASV)
This is the Batiz/ASV disc devoted to lesser Chavez, and yesterday I found nothing I wanted to hear again. 'La Hija' is on the
ASV re-issue with Symphonies 1-2/4, and 'Baile', so, that's the disc that I'm recommending as my TopChoice, I suppose, next to the Dorian below.
Frankly, besides the first two, highly original, Symphonies, and maybe the occational 'La Hija...', I am ready to say goodbye to Orchestral Chavez. And, I'd go for the Batiz re-issue for that.
Tambuco, Toccata, Xochipilli, 'La Hija de Colchis', Energia (Dorian)
THIS IS THE SINGLE BEST CHAVEZ EVER PRODUCED. STOP.
String Quartets 1-3, Fuga, Invencion II (Urtext)
The late String Trio 'Invencion II' may be the only thing of interest to some. I find a slight bit to enjoy in No.3, but I find most all of Chavez's "normal" Chamber Music to be hopelessly old-fashioned, which id not want I want to hear from him.
Complete Chamber Music (Cambria 4CDs)
The one with the odd pieces with interesting instrumentation (Hexagonos??), I think I mentioned it above, would be the only necessity here. The 2CD set of String Quartets & Sonatas bore me to tears, maybe not you. You may also like the 'Soli' and 'Inventions', but it is a pity there are not together- perhaps someone else will remedy that.
Though I comment the participants, many of the revelations here are not positive ones. Chavez can be somewhat old-fashioned, like Roy Harris's Chamber Music.
Piano MusicThis, too, is all available, and put me to sleep. Maybe you'll feel differently.
So, really, my
Essential Chavez boils down to:
1) ASV- Symphonies 1-2 & 4, 'La Hija de Colchis', Baile
2) Dorian Chamber Music disc
3) select pieces of the Cambria Complete Chamber Muisc (including the 'Soli' and 'Invencions', and the avant songs 'Hexagonos?') I'd stay away from the String Chamber Music.
It may seem harsh, but I myself was disappointed, having "loved" Chavez for so long. Oh well, I still what's listed.
I like the 'Antigone' and 'India' symphonies, although I want to give No.6 a go too. I have the Vox set plus some on ASV. 'Antigone' reminds me, in its craggy way, of Havergal Brian and also the fine Symphony by Robin Orr.
I do like the Violin Concerto played by Szeryng. The Piano Concerto, while not ingratiating, is worth an occasional outing.
Symphony No. 4 sounds like an obvious homage to the Piston Symphony No. 4, and is one of my favorites of the Chavez symphonies, particularly the Everest recording.
Not sure what musical meaning I should take from what sound like allergies and sleep problems.
but I will sort of agree that it's a hot mess- like a hot drunk girl in cutoffs and a tee-... uh,... so, what was it you didn't like? I reminds a little of the first movement of Lou Harrison;s PC- that typical 'Stravinskyian Neo-Classic Major 7th... with a 9th...
[/quote]
Great description! I love much of Chavez's symphonic music and will check out the hot drun...I mean Piano Concerto
Quote from: Rons_talking on June 11, 2016, 05:33:40 AM
but I will sort of agree that it's a hot mess- like a hot drunk girl in cutoffs and a tee-... uh,... so, what was it you didn't like? I reminds a little of the first movement of Lou Harrison;s PC- that typical 'Stravinskyian Neo-Classic Major 7th... with a 9th...
Great description! I love much of Chavez's symphonic music and will check out the hot drun...I mean Piano Concerto
Again, like the Harrison, it's basically good for the big first movement... then it gets kind of... "normal"...
Yea, I won't argue about Chavez. Others may like what they hear more, i'm just not finding him as exciting as his fellows- Hindemith, Villa-Lobos, Malipiero, Bloch, Gerhard,... even Revueltas... BUT, I FIND CHAVEZ TO BE A "GOOD GUY" AND I LIKE HIM ALL THE SAME!!
I mean, he's still pretty hip with all those avant portraits of him...and to think that he's MEXICAN... and that we actually got someone who tried to make some Aztec music... (yea, and pleez dont read too much into that word "MEXICAN"... oy vey, dont want to get slapped with a hatespeech rap or sumptin)
I picked up the LSO/Mata set of Complete Symphonies today. Really enjoying them so far, especially the epic No. 6. No. 1 is now the shortest symphony in my collection, "beating" Havergal Brian's 12th by about 30 seconds or so...I think. I know they were contemporaries, but I can definitely hear traces of Villa-Lobos in these symphonies.
Quote from: Maestro267 on August 10, 2018, 10:54:18 AM
I picked up the LSO/Mata set of Complete Symphonies today. Really enjoying them so far, especially the epic No. 6. No. 1 is now the shortest symphony in my collection, "beating" Havergal Brian's 12th by about 30 seconds or so...I think. I know they were contemporaries, but I can definitely hear traces of Villa-Lobos in these symphonies.
He's an underrated composer I think. Some of his music (Antigone Symphony) reminds me of Havergal Brian and also the fine 'Symphony in One Movement' by Robin Orr. I must give Symphony 6 another listen.
Quote from: snyprrr on June 11, 2016, 06:34:12 AM
e Aztec music... (yea, and pleez dont read too much into that word "MEXICAN"... oy vey, dont want to get slapped with a hatespeech rap or sumptin)
two years later and this has become an absolute reality,... wow, we are heading into it big time here in this world today!!
As for Chavez's Symphony No.6,... I still remember the last time I listened to 3-6 and thought it all sounded like Hindemith... for me, it's good for nostalgic reasons... try 'Energia' for some Avant-Chavez...
I finished off listening to the rest of the symphonies this morning. No. 5, for strings alone, has some incredible sounds in it, at the end of the first movement (violins in highest register), and then the finale has an incredible energy to it, which runs into overdrive for the closing bars. I didn't realise music for string orchestra alone could be so thrilling!
A very interesting review by Hurwitz on Chávez's Piano Concerto. Certainly sounds intriguing. It piqued my curiosity.
https://www.youtube.com/v/cDHuxVpZ3NE
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on August 12, 2020, 04:39:48 PM
A very interesting review by Hurwitz on Chávez's Piano Concerto. Certainly sounds intriguing. It piqued my curiosity.
https://www.youtube.com/v/cDHuxVpZ3NE
It's a very good piece IIRC. On a side note, I was quite impressed by Chávez's Symphony no. 1
Sinfonia di Antigona recently. A brief yet compelling work, quite haunting and unique in its ritualistic atmosphere.
Quote from: kyjo on August 13, 2020, 03:08:32 PM
It's a very good piece IIRC. On a side note, I was quite impressed by Chávez's Symphony no. 1 Sinfonia di Antigona recently. A brief yet compelling work, quite haunting and unique in its ritualistic atmosphere.
Yes, I like the 'Antigona' very much as well Kyle.
Why are we giving that asshole Hurwitz the time of day?
Quote from: Maestro267 on August 14, 2020, 08:03:39 AM
Why are we giving that asshole Hurwitz the time of day?
Because he's entertaining and his enthusiasm for music is so infectious. Deal with it! :D
Quote from: kyjo on August 14, 2020, 08:12:18 AM
Because he's entertaining and his enthusiasm for music is so infectious. Deal with it! :D
Totally agree with you my friend!
Nice stuff, especially the second piano sonata.
[asin]B00003A9O1[/asin] (https://i.postimg.cc/6pXR8HyL/Chavez-Pn-Worksback.jpg)