Johannes Brahms (1833-1897)

[Florestan]

Maybe he just met a Liszt imposter. He was catfished!

Albeniz wrote in his diary about his encounter with Liszt in Budapest, and this is precisely how the falsehood was finally exposed, because there is irrefutable evidence that at the time Albeniz pretended to have met Liszt, the latter was actually in Weimar. Yet the claim was printed in many bios of Albeniz, their authors quoting each other without bothering to check the facts.

[Madiel]

Albeniz wrote in his diary about his encounter with Liszt in Budapest, and this is precisely how the falsehood was finally exposed, because there is irrefutable evidence that at the time Albeniz pretended to have met Liszt, the latter was actually in Weimar. Yet the claim was printed in many bios of Albeniz, their authors quoting each other without bothering to check the facts.

I was only joking that maybe Albeniz met someone who CLAIMED to be Liszt.

Anyway. I agree with your points entirely.

[Florestan]

I was only joking that maybe Albeniz met someone who CLAIMED to be Liszt.

I know you did. I just wanted to show that if a myth is printed and reprinted in many books is evidence only for it being powerful, not for it being true --- even if it was first stated by the composer himself.

[vers la flamme]

I asked you before but you didn't answer. I ask you again: should we, or do you really, believe Brahms' own words that he would have given anything (anything, mind you!) in return for being able to write "An der schoenen blauen Donau"?

I for one am content to take him at his word on this. ("I would give anything for" is a figure of speech, in English, at least.) We do know that he admired his slightly older contemporary Strauss Sohn immensely.



You'd hardly believe the man on the right is eight years the younger, but it's true.

[Atriod]

Is this the most underrated work by Brahms:

I never heard anybody talk about it until i chanced upon it many years ago, and realized it was a major work.

I streamed this when I saw it and gave it a second listen. I listened to the recent Naxos recording both times. They're alright but IMO not a major work, only having two recordings on CD seems about right.

[Brian]

Albeniz wrote in his diary about his encounter with Liszt in Budapest, and this is precisely how the falsehood was finally exposed, because there is irrefutable evidence that at the time Albeniz pretended to have met Liszt, the latter was actually in Weimar. Yet the claim was printed in many bios of Albeniz, their authors quoting each other without bothering to check the facts.

Wait, Albeniz lied to his own diary? I should try that...

[Spotted Horses]

It seems like the most heated arguments always revolve around questions that can't be answered, especially if the answer doesn't matter. The stories about Brahms performing in seedy locations during his early career seems to have come from anecdotes that Brahms told his friends. I tend to think where there is smoke there is fire, although there is no definite evidence or indication of what sort of establishment might be involved.

[Florestan]

Wait, Albeniz lied to his own diary?

Unbelievable as it sounds, yes he did. But then again, he made it clear that he wrote it for the posterity to read it.

[Florestan]

The stories about Brahms performing in seedy locations during his early career seems to have come from anecdotes that Brahms told his friends.

The article below is very helpful because of two things

(1) it quotes extensively a letter of Brahms in which he speaks specifically but very vaguely about his biography and in which there is no mention of poverty and brothels.

(2) it lists all major Brahms biographies written between 1874 and 2015, showing that the first ten, written between 1874 and 1902, including one written by a Hamburg resident who was a personal friend of Brahms, one written by a close personal acquaintance of young Brahms and another one written by a close personal friend of Brahms, did not mention anything about poverty and brothels. The first mention of those is found in Max Kalbeck's biography (1903-1921), from which it was taken by many, but by no means all, subsequent biographies. It is also noted that, while Kalbeck knew Brahms personally for the last 20 years of the latter's life, he was not a close personal friend.

[Opus131]

I streamed this when I saw it and gave it a second listen. I listened to the recent Naxos recording both times. They're alright but IMO not a major work, only having two recordings on CD seems about right.

I'm not familiar with the Naxos, so i can't comment on that. Some organists like to play many of those pieces slowly with often very heavy textures. I prefer when they are played fast with a delicate approach that reveals all the little contrapuntal subtleties. A good example is the recording Rudolf Innig made in the early 80s. Or something like this:

I think those pieces are somewhat analogous to his late piano minatures in that they are deceptively simple. They are written to resemble Bach's Orgelbüchlein but despite using a number of baroque techniques they are also still quite "romantic" in character.

Perhaps the fact those are full "late" Brahms in character might appear more evident when played on piano, where the melodic "density" is easier to follow:

[Opus131]

Hah, this just appeared on my youtube feed. They sound quite good as chamber pieces as well:

[Spotted Horses]

The article below is very helpful because of two things

(1) it quotes extensively a letter of Brahms in which he speaks specifically but very vaguely about his biography and in which there is no mention of poverty and brothels.

(2) it lists all major Brahms biographies written between 1874 and 2015, showing that the first ten, written between 1874 and 1902, including one written by a Hamburg resident who was a personal friend of Brahms, one written by a close personal acquaintance of young Brahms and another one written by a close personal friend of Brahms, did not mention anything about poverty and brothels. The first mention of those is found in Max Kalbeck's biography (1903-1921), from which it was taken by many, but by no means all, subsequent biographies. It is also noted that, while Kalbeck knew Brahms personally for the last 20 years of the latter's life, he was not a close personal friend.

The fact that Brahms didn't tell the story to everyone he knew doesn't mean he didn't tell it to some. Anyone who says it must be true or that it can't be true is overselling the facts. I'm in the camp of, I don't particularly care if it's true. I tried to read Swafford's biography of Brahms and abandon it after barely starting it, because I found my self unconcerned with the personal peculiarities of the greatest musical genius Europe had ever produced.

[Mandryka]

I'm not familiar with the Naxos, so i can't comment on that. Some organists like to play many of those pieces slowly with often very heavy textures. I prefer when they are played fast with a delicate approach that reveals all the little contrapuntal subtleties. A good example is the recording Rudolf Innig made in the early 80s. Or something like this:

I think those pieces are somewhat analogous to his late piano minatures in that they are deceptively simple. They are written to resemble Bach's Orgelbüchlein but despite using a number of baroque techniques they are also still quite "romantic" in character.

Perhaps the fact those are full "late" Brahms in character might appear more evident when played on piano, where the melodic "density" is easier to follow:

Busoni made transcriptions for one piano which Paul Jacobs recorded - he said they were the most difficult thing he ever played.

[Karl Henning]

My girlfriend's 43 so I am required to say yes regardless of whether or not I think the answer is yes 

I'm in imy early 60's, and 43 strikes me as young.

[atardecer]

Albeniz wrote in his diary about his encounter with Liszt in Budapest, and this is precisely how the falsehood was finally exposed, because there is irrefutable evidence that at the time Albeniz pretended to have met Liszt, the latter was actually in Weimar. Yet the claim was printed in many bios of Albeniz, their authors quoting each other without bothering to check the facts.

I wonder how it is possible to say with certainty that Albéniz was lying in this case and rather hadn't confused the time frame of the incident in his memory.

[atardecer]

Some interesting info on Brahms Op. 122 from the Bowyer organ youtube video:


Description by John Palmer  [-]
On May 21, 1896, Brahms' lifelong friend and champion, Clara Schumann, passed away in Frankfurt am Main. Brahms, who considered Clara to be the "greatest wealth" in his life, was so devastated that he bungled his travel arrangements and missed the funeral in Bonn. Upon his return to Ischl, where he spent his summers, Brahms' friends noticed an unsettling change in his appearance. Physicians at first told the composer that he had jaundice, though they secretly believed he was suffering from liver cancer, the disease that had killed his father. When Brahms left Ischl to "take the cure" at Karlsbad, it is possible, though unlikely, that he was unaware of the seriousness of his condition; he rarely admitted to having an illness, even if he knew it was the truth.

In was in this atmosphere that Brahms composed the Eleven Chorale Preludes, his first music for the organ since 1857. It is possible that some of the settings may have originated before 1896; most of Brahms' work on the set, however, took place during that year. Brahms may have known, if only subconsciously, that he might not live to see another summer; this may have influenced his decision to set, twice each, the chorales "Herzlich tut ich verlangen nach einem sel'gen End" (I sincerely wish for a happy end) and "O Welt, ich muss dich lassen" (O world, I must leave you"). Indeed, the second of the two "O Welt" settings contains the last notes the composer ever wrote.

Brahms' mature art pervades the Chorale Preludes, which feature the same sort of motivic density found in the late piano pieces, at the same time paying homage to Baroque-era counterpoint. In the first Prelude, "Mein Jesu, der du mich," the chorale melody sounds in the pedals, each verse preceded by a fugal episode. Because the material of the fugal passages is derived from the melody of the ensuing verse, these passages act as anticipations as well as variations. Brahms uses a similar procedure in No. 5, "Schmücke dich, o liebe Seele," in which the sixteenth-note accompanimental pattern is derived directly from the first two measures of the chorale tune.

In Nos. 9 and 10, both based on "Herzlich tut ich verlangen," Brahms employs the tune "O sacred head now wounded," presented in a highly decorative fashion in the soprano register in No. 9 and more straightforwardly in the pedals in No. 10, accompanied by constant sixteenth-note figuration. Both settings of "O Welt, ich muss dich lassen," Nos. 3 and 11, are in F major. The first, with its buoyant alternation of triple and quadruple meters, features decorative additions to the melody, which is occasionally echoed in the bass line. In the second, the individual phrases of the melody are separated by brief interludes, as if Brahms were taking a deep, hesitant breath between each line.

[Madiel]

I wonder how it is possible to say with certainty that Albéniz was lying in this case and rather hadn't confused the time frame of the incident in his memory.

Presumably the date of the diary entry. People typically write diary entries contemporaneously, not "from memory".  A diary is usually where you write what you were doing this week, not what you were doing several years ago.

EDIT: I was right. If you're writing in August 1880 about something you say just happened in August 1880, you're not geting confused about the time frame of the incident in your memory. http://thediaryjunction.blogspot.com/2009/05/albeniz-and-liszt-or-not.html

[atardecer]

Presumably the date of the diary entry. People typically write diary entries contemporaneously, not "from memory".  A diary is usually where you write what you were doing this week, not what you were doing several years ago.

EDIT: I was right. If you're writing in August 1880 about something you say just happened in August 1880, you're not geting confused about the time frame of the incident in your memory. http://thediaryjunction.blogspot.com/2009/05/albeniz-and-liszt-or-not.html

Yes, however in diaries people could reference memories, for example 'that reminded me of when I met Liszt' etc. Thank you for the clarification. It appears that there is certainly some untruth there, and the meeting with Liszt likely never took place, however it is possible the referenced meeting took place at an earlier time and for some reason he decided to write it in his diary as though it just happened.

I hear some influence of Liszt in Albéniz work Iberia.

[Madiel]

however it is possible the referenced meeting took place at an earlier time and for some reason he decided to write it in his diary as though it just happened.

Oh for heaven's sake. Occam's Razor. You are inventing increasingly convoluted possibilities.

Sure, it's just ever so slightly "possible" that Albeniz visited Budapest at some earlier time, despite a complete lack of evidence about it, when Liszt was still in the city, but never mentioned it, or there they met somewhere else entirely, yet when he was in Budapest in August 1880 he wrote in a grammatically obscure way about a reminiscence of that earlier otherwise unattested visit.

But how likely is it? You literally have to discard every other piece of data, about where each of them was and when, to try to construct a scenario where they were in the same place at the same time, AND you have to reconstruct the diary entry to be something other then what it appears to be, a contemporary record of August 1880.

This is far, far more complex than the explanation that Albeniz wrote something he thought he could get away with (and probably DID get away with during the lifetime of everyone relevant).

[Florestan]

Yes, however in diaries people could reference memories, for example 'that reminded me of when I met Liszt' etc. Thank you for the clarification. It appears that there is certainly some untruth there, and the meeting with Liszt likely never took place, however it is possible the referenced meeting took place at an earlier time and for some reason he decided to write it in his diary as though it just happened.

I have nothing to add to @Madiel 's judicious remarks. If interested in a detailed, painstakingly researched discussion and refutation of all the lies Albeniz fabricated regarding his early life, please read Walter Aaron Clarke's Albeniz: Portrait of a Romantic.

I hear some influence of Liszt in Albéniz work Iberia.

Scriabin's early works are unmistakably Chopinesque. Ergo, the two must have met.